Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Official Formation Date: Sun, 1 Aug 99 14:16:55 -0400 From: Jerry This is for national PRRT&HS members only: If you are interested in working with me to form the Offical Cyber Chapter of the PRRT&HS, please e-mail me (off-list) with your full name, city, state, phone number, and PRRT&HS membership number. I have updated the Cyber Chapter web page and included a proposed list of objectives. Please share your comments: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:39:03 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer T-1 Greg, Roger, and the List, My only concern for you is your desire to have an engine quickly. I also have a Bowser T-1 with the Alco Products can motors, and assembly will take you a couple of weeks, at least. Mine has stretched out over a year and a half now (OTS and three moves having slowed my progress somewhat). This is the kind of kit you want to build slowly and carefully. My mechanisms went together well, and now, I'm putting on a few boiler details every couple of days. Done this way, it's quite relaxing. If you want an engine quickly, check Bowser's web site; they have a few PRR engines ready to run. They don't have the superdetail kits, but they'll pull small houses, and you can buy the Alco Products can motors for them and install them in about an hour. You could also purchase the Spectrum K4s engines; they're ready to run, and the new ones have improved mechanisms (though some still consider them suspect due to the poor running qualities of the first batches), though they don't pull nearly as much as the Bowser engines (on a club layout, this can become a factor quickly). Doug Greg Johnson wrote: > I believe that Bowser (or English) sells the Alco remotoring kits now. Try > them direct for both items. You can call their shop tomorrow (Saturday) and > find out. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Elliott > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:25 PM > Subject: [PRR] Boswer T-1 > > >Hey Jerry and anyone else out there too, > >I want to buy a Bowser T-1 and I also want to get the ALCO remotor kit. > >What is the fastest way I can get these items? There is a club that has > >asked for my help to run trains at a county fair and I don't have an HO > >engine of my own, so I want to get one ASAP. > > > >I've got the address of the ALCO fellow and I just found the phone > >number. How does he usually take payments? Or is there a source for > >his drive kits that can send to me pronto? > > > >Thanks for the Help, > >Roger Elliott > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention, National Society, Etc. (long) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 99 13:49:47 -0400 From: Jerry Sorry if I get long-winded here... I had the first of what is likely to be several "heart to hearts" with Walt Keely yesterday. We spoke of the convention, a cyber chapter, this list, attitudes towards nationals, etc. Walt and I have agreed to open new lines of communications between us -- kind of an "air clearing" thing -- so that I, for the benefit of the list, have a direct line into the national society. It seems that one or more individuals on this list are forwarding posts (mostly by me) to Walt and others that contain content about the society. In my opionion (and others!), the folks that do this forwarding are "ferrets", "weasels" and "rats" (not to be confused with the B-1's). Why? 1. "PRR-Talk" is a public, unmoderated list. If national officers want to know what is being said, they should subscribe direct. They don't have to make posts, in which case nobody would even know they are on the list. They can also subscribe via digest mode to reduce the mail to one or two a day. Since this is the case, there should be no reason for anyone to forward posts unless they have their own hidden agenda. 2. The archive of "PRR-Talk" is publicly available, with about a 24-hour delay, and even non-subscribers have access to it. Any national officer could perform a search and find out exactly what was said and by whom. 3. Most importantly, in some instances, the data that is being forwarded are excerpts. This often prevents the whole story from being told. More importantly, and in my case, it can make words appear to be mine when I am requoting what someone else actually said. There have been numerous derogatory comments about national that are attributed to me that were not my words. I have voiced some negative comments (check the archive), but many complaints are not mine. For the record, I am very pro-national. Though I disagree with a few things now and then, I believe it is a good organization with a phenomenal magazine in "The Keystone" (which is worth the dues alone). The "PRR-Talk" track that was developed for the upcoming convention was out of a voiced need from this list. It was not announced to the society at large, though reports back to national make it appear that our intent is to be a competing group, which it is not. These events were only announced to the online group, which has little bearing on the overall society. Unfortunately for the society, the Lewistown trip has been cancelled. While our sessions would be beneficial to the society as a whole, the venue at the museum will not hold the volume of individuals likely to attend were they held at the hotel. Furthermore, the organizers of this track agree that we owe it to the museum -- which has been very generous to us on this and prior RailFest events -- to continue to maintain that venue. To further complicate matters, the hotel can only offer additional meeting space to the society until 3 p.m. on Friday. Walt has arranged for one seminar on Friday afternoon, at the hotel, on M-1's. Now we have an unfortunate situation where we appear to have two groups competing for attendence, though not by intent. I have suggested to Walt that we try to move the M-1 session to the museum, in the morning, so as to have only one seminar venue. We could also suggest that the masses just plain visit the museum as the "formal" activity for all of Friday. (I have not heard back from Walt yet.) I have heard through the grapevine -- unconfirmed -- that Walt has arranged for the Cincinatti Modelers group to do a talk. Hopefully that would be Saturday after the banquet, as I would like to see it AND I am sure we all want to see a session then anyway. Walt is working on an updated schedule, to be mailed to registrants this week. (The M-1 and modeling sessions are tentative...wait for your schedule for confirmation of any and all events.) I have asked Walt to include our events in the mailing. I don't know if that will happen or not. It is also worth noting that we arranged for PRRT&HS members to receive a $2 discount at the museum. I want to be very clear: It was not and is not our intent to compete with the national organization. However, our seminar track at the museum will remain as scheduled. Walt is working hard to fill in the blanks and I support him and the society in doing so. Looking ahead, Walt and I have agreed to have further discussions about the online contingent AND about the establishment of a "cyber chapter". He has verbally voiced support of this chapter and I will be pursuing it with he and the other national officers. I think that there is a lot we can contribute to the society...look what we arranged in the past four weeks! Hopefully I have covered everything and have done so in a clear manner. My wife is out of town and I have two screaming kids pulling at my legs, so bear with me if I need to clarify any points. Thanks. I have BCC'd this to Walt directly, so there is little chance of misinterpretation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:50:51 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Hello List, Apex of the Atlantics can be excruciatingly difficult to find. Check train shows; at the Timonium shows, I've seen copies from $40 to $60. Also, Ron's Books (914 967 7541, fax 914 967 7492) buys and sells out of print railroad books. I was exceedingly lucky and found my copy at a local hobby shop when I was living in Maryland. The book, long out of print, was expensive, but worth it. Westing is a fantastic writer, and he explains highly technical concepts in layman's terms, and makes them exciting. Good hunting!!! Doug endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The > title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? > Gene Deimling > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 22:15:43 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Railroad musings Hello Folks... This is a bit off topic...but some of you might want to hear about some of this. Over the weekend i visited my step-mom and also talked to her brother-in law who is manager of Amtrak's high speed testing. On the way up and back i noticed this.... NS is installing new signals somewhere between Suffolk,Va. and Petersburg,Va. I saw some gondolas sitting on a siding in Disputanta (SP ?)Va. with a bunch of the old PRR like signals in them... My guess would be they are going to scrap. These were the signal mast,targets and lights...also some of the signal equipment. Now the Amtrak news. As some know the new Acela train is being tested out at the Pubelo, Colo. test site. Doug (my step moms brother in law) told me this.... The train will not be ready for its October debut. There are too many bugs to work out (Hmmmm reminds me of the Original Metroliners). They have tested the train up to 207 MPH. The crews who will eventially run the trains will have to be very computer literate. There are several computer interfaces onboard the train for the Conductor and asst Conductor to use. The Conductor's will have a laptop to access the interfaces. Engineers will be given different level access cards (similar to a credit card) that will give them access to the power car. Different employees will have different cards depending on their qualifications. Road crews will have a card that will let them operate the train up to road speeds. Yard crews will have cards that will only allow them speeds up to 20 MPH in yard switching. Maintanance Crews will have a card for up to 10 MPH. Some of the contols for the train are.... Automatic speed reduction to 30 MPH if any of the train doors are opened. Conductors will have a card that will allow them to open the doors overiding the usual door functions (not the 30 MPH feature) The old "church key" type lock system is going to be done away with. Acela trains have electric brakes and also regenerative braking. There are no independant or train brake controls in the power cars. All brake fuctions are tied into the throttle. If a emergency application is needed the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. The train has wheel slip indicators. During one high speed test they had one of the Brake fuctions inoperatable and it took 28 MILES to stop it. Both power cars are set up to regenerate power to the overhead line when this feature is used. But i was told that the train is generating too much power back to the line than what is acceptable. One of the problems they are having with it is the old lateral stress and motion problem. At speeds up to 130 MPH it works fine. But at speeds over 130 up to 200 and because of the tilt mechanism and truck design the power car trucks want to "Hunt" I was told that they want to travel from side to side on the rails at these speeds. Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly higher speed that the lead power car. This leads to the rest of the train being bunched up between the two power cars. There is also some trouble still with the tilt mechanism. Also out at the test site Doug also saw this.... The japanese don't have a test site for some of their trains so.... They have a new high speed train that they are testing that changes gauges at speed. I was'nt told how it does it, and also the Japanese are doing the tests at night from 12 AM until about 8 AM in the morning to help keep folks from seeing how the train does this. The only time Amtrak personnel can see it is between 7 and 8 AM. This train has been tested up to 100 MPH so far. They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car held up well. This type of testing probably stems from the recent Amtrak and commuter crashes. All new Amtrak cars will have to go through this type of testing. I'd like to see what a Acela train does at 150 MPH ! UP and EMD are testing the MAC90. This engine has 8000 H.P. They tied (if i remember right) 8 engines to this loco and set the dynamic and emergency brakes on them. Then they started the MAC90...it moved them ! (I'd like to know how they kept the couplers from braking) They are now running this engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week for a endurance test. It is remotely controled and the only time it stops is for fuel. EMD wants to run it up to 100,000 miles. 10 freight cars a week are blown up (hey thats what i was told) so railroad and emergency personnel can learn what to do in derailments. I would guess old cars that are ready for retirement are used for this. TTX is testing a car that carries containers 2 high by 2 wide. TTX wants to increase what present cars can carry. No word on stability and clearances for these cars. I would guess Western roads might be able to use a car like this in some places. Some of BNSF's former Sante Fe lines were rebuilt a while back with more distances between two sets of tracks. Who knows ? Til Later H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:55:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H37b's and H39's(Reply) Rich Orr writes: << The first class of PRR hoppers to ride on roller bearing trucks were H42 cylindrical covered hoppers. >> Gize, What I think Rich meant to say is that the first class of PRR hoppers to ride on roller bearing trucks were the H-33 covered two bay hoppers. The practice was not repeated until the H42 hoppers were purchased. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:09:38 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hello Folks... > > This is a bit off topic...but some of you might want to hear about > some of this. > Over the weekend i visited my step-mom and also talked to her > brother-in law who is manager of Amtrak's high speed testing. > On the way up and back i noticed this.... > > NS is installing new signals somewhere between Suffolk,Va. and > Petersburg,Va. > I saw some gondolas sitting on a siding in Disputanta (SP ?)Va. > with a bunch of the old PRR like signals in them... > My guess would be they are going to scrap. These were > the signal mast,targets and lights...also some of the signal > equipment. > > Now the Amtrak news. As some know the new Acela train is being > tested out at the Pubelo, Colo. test site. Doug (my step moms > brother in law) told me this.... > > The train will not be ready for its October debut. There are > too many bugs to work out (Hmmmm reminds me of the Original > Metroliners). They have tested the train up to 207 MPH. The crews > who will eventially run the trains will have to be very computer > literate. There are several computer interfaces onboard the train > for the Conductor and asst Conductor to use. The Conductor's > will have a laptop to access the interfaces. Engineers will be > given different level access cards (similar to a credit card) > that will give them access to the power car. Different employees > will have different cards depending on their qualifications. > Road crews will have a card that will let them operate the train > up to road speeds. Yard crews will have cards that will only > allow them speeds up to 20 MPH in yard switching. Maintanance > Crews will have a card for up to 10 MPH. > > Some of the contols for the train are.... > Automatic speed reduction to 30 MPH if any of the train doors are > opened. Conductors will have a card that will allow them to > open the doors overiding the usual door functions (not the 30 > MPH feature) The old "church key" type lock system is going to > be done away with. Acela trains have electric brakes and > also regenerative braking. There are no independant or train > brake controls in the power cars. All brake fuctions are > tied into the throttle. If a emergency application is needed > the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. The train has wheel slip > indicators. During one high speed test they had one of the > Brake fuctions inoperatable and it took 28 MILES to stop it. > Both power cars are set up to regenerate power to the overhead > line when this feature is used. But i was told that the train > is generating too much power back to the line than what is > acceptable. > One of the problems they are having with it is the old lateral > stress and motion problem. At speeds up to 130 MPH it works > fine. But at speeds over 130 up to 200 and because of the tilt > mechanism and truck design the power car trucks want to "Hunt" > I was told that they want to travel from side to side on the rails > at these speeds. > Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high > speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly > higher speed that the lead power car. This leads to the rest of > the train being bunched up between the two power cars. > There is also some trouble still with the tilt mechanism. > > Also out at the test site Doug also saw this.... > > The japanese don't have a test site for some of their trains so.... > They have a new high speed train that they are testing that > changes gauges at speed. I was'nt told how it does it, and also > the Japanese are doing the tests at night from 12 AM until about > 8 AM in the morning to help keep folks from seeing how the train > does this. The only time Amtrak personnel can see it is between > 7 and 8 AM. This train has been tested up to 100 MPH so far. > > They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was > told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car > held up well. This type of testing probably stems from the recent > Amtrak and commuter crashes. All new Amtrak cars will have to go > through this type of testing. I'd like to see what a Acela > train does at 150 MPH ! > > UP and EMD are testing the MAC90. This engine has 8000 H.P. > They tied (if i remember right) 8 engines to this loco and > set the dynamic and emergency brakes on them. Then they started > the MAC90...it moved them ! (I'd like to know how they kept the > couplers from braking) > They are now running this engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week > for a endurance test. It is remotely controled and the only > time it stops is for fuel. EMD wants to run it up to 100,000 > miles. > > 10 freight cars a week are blown up (hey thats what i was told) > so railroad and emergency personnel can learn what to do in > derailments. I would guess old cars that are ready for retirement > are used for this. > > TTX is testing a car that carries containers 2 high by 2 wide. > TTX wants to increase what present cars can carry. No word on > stability and clearances for these cars. I would guess Western > roads might be able to use a car like this in some places. > Some of BNSF's former Sante Fe lines were rebuilt a while > back with more distances between two sets of tracks. > Who knows ? > > Til Later > H.Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Now, that's a great post! Saw two streamlined trainsets in Philly the weekend of 7/10. My daughter's boyfriend said they'd been there about a week. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:15:49 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings bubbles@visi.net wrote (in part): > .. . . > Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high > speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly > higher speed that the lead power car. -- Its just like the P2K E8s. Obviously Amtrak needs to add the extra diode to the Acela's constant brightness headlight ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 11:40:02 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 1 Aug, bubbles@visi.net wrote: > [ ... ] If a emergency application is needed > the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. [ ... ] That doesn't make it easy to do a smooth stop! > They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was > told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car > held up well. [ ... ] The MBTA has had these same cars (Kawasaki, right?) for several years now, and they hold up pretty well. There were serious teething troubles, of course. One reason for them vs Chicago bilevels is that they fit wherever an F40PH does. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:12:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners Hi Guys, I just received a copy of "Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet", by Joe Welsh (as a gift). A great deal of the information contained in this publication was provided by Chris Bear, of the Hagley Museum and Library; Bill Howes, a former director of the Pullman Company; and historian Peter Tilp. Many other provided photographs, memorabilia and support, including Chuck Blardone and the PRRT&HS. The book is inundated with excellent color and black and white photos of these trains, as well as illustrations and photos of the interiors of many of the cars. Chapter One, deals with the 'Fleet of Modernism'. Consists of these trains is also included in the text. Another added attraction is the inclusion of some very clear photos of the ends of a number of cars that the modelers among us will find beneficial, I'm sure. One photo of note, depicts an L-1, double-heading with a K-4, in passenger service. I don't recall ever seeing an L-1 used in this manner, although I'm sure such anomalies occurred from time-to-time. Additional consists are also included that show, on selected dates, both power and cars that show by class and number that particular trains make-up. The next chapter concerns 'A New Postwar Blue Ribbon Fleet'. This section goes into detail and shows some of the selected consists as well as some nice interior photos of these cars, including a very nice interior shot of Pennsy's twin-unit diner. Chapter Three pertains to 'Through Cars and Trains of the Blue Ribbon Fleet'. Again, excellent descriptions and photos are included. Chapter Five, pertains to 'Home from the Road: Sunnyside - The Largest Coach Yard in the World'. This chapter contains an interesting photo of a GG1 being pulled through a wash rack by means of a shuttle. First time I had ever seen a photo of this procedure. Chapter Five: 'The Long Good-bye' deals with the end of an era. All-in-all, I think that all PRR fans (historians and modelers) will enjoy this publication, I did. The book contains 161 pages, and is approximately 8 1/2 x 11 inch format. I also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" and would be delighted to provide you with one! Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:34:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners From: "Jerry Britton" > I > also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" > and would be delighted to provide you with one! Yes, I do, and thanks for the plug! Actually, I have advance reservations for a dozen or so of these, and I have to apologize as my distributor shipped them two weeks ago into a black hole, so it seems. They finally reshipped my order last Friday. When they arrive, all backorders will be filled and additional copies will be available. Sorry for the delay for those who are waiting! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:28:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions From: "Jerry Britton" Along with all the responses to be included (thanks!), I've received numerous queries about the Cyber Chapter. Here are a few details: 1. I asked for only National Members to respond. Reason: To charter a chapter, I need to submit a list of at least 10 chapter (proposed) members that ARE national members. Once chartered, the chapter may admit non-national members, but they must maintain at least 10 national members at all times. It is up to the chapter to decide if they require their members to also be national members. We have at least 10, though many have promised to get back to me with their national membership numbers, which I will need. 2. Unlike during past discussions about creating a chapter, I am actually pursuing this through channels at this time. I am waiting on a set of by-laws which are en-route from Walt Keely. Item #1 (above) is the only requirement, but the by-laws spell out the application process and the organizational requirements of a chapter. Once all this is received, I will post it to the "charter members" via a new, private, chapter mailing list. I also wanted to address a few issues that came up about a year ago when this was last discussed. 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing list or for serving a chapter web site (http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for implementation costs. 2. "PRR-Talk" will continue as a public mailing list. It would be nice if the chapter "endorsed" it as a public medium. A private chapter list would allow discussion of chapter business only, with historical/modeling discussion continuing on "PRR-Talk". I foresee a private area (via password) on the chapter web site which would gain members access to new benefits. These may include (finally) a "universal" web index, special product discounts from various vendors, etc. How and what it would include would be determined by the charter members via the private list. Dues? Perhaps. My thought is that we should have them, say $10 a year. True, we don't have the costs other chapters incur for meeting space, etc., but it could place us in an advantageous condition to sponsor restoration work that other chapters can only do via fund drives. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. As for me, I'm taking the lead on this just to get it off the ground. Due to my role in another volunteer organization, I cannot take the role of secretary or treasurer of the new chapter. If nominated, I would be happy to serve in another position. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. I will be updating the chapter site often as things progress, so please stay tuned. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:37:34 -0400 Re: Using an L-1 as a snapper on passenger trains, I believe there was a period when this was commonly done in Emporium PA up the hill to Keating Summit, on the Harrisburg/Buffalo line. I remember a photo somewhere - Staufer's PP3 runs in my mind, but I can't swear to that. I-1's (three of them) were commonly used for freight - the climb to Keating Summit was around 2.7% as I recall! Bill Bigler -----Original Message----- From: Eichhorn@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 1:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners >Hi Guys, > >I just received a copy of "Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet", by >Joe Welsh (as a gift). A great deal of the information contained in this >publication was provided by Chris Bear, of the Hagley Museum and Library; >Bill Howes, a former director of the Pullman Company; and historian Peter >Tilp. Many other provided photographs, memorabilia and support, including >Chuck Blardone and the PRRT&HS. >The book is inundated with excellent color and black and white photos of >these trains, as well as illustrations and photos of the interiors of many of >the cars. >Chapter One, deals with the 'Fleet of Modernism'. Consists of these trains >is also included in the text. Another added attraction is the inclusion of >some very clear photos of the ends of a number of cars that the modelers >among us will find beneficial, I'm sure. One photo of note, depicts an L-1, >double-heading with a K-4, in passenger service. I don't recall ever seeing >an L-1 used in this manner, although I'm sure such anomalies occurred from >time-to-time. Additional consists are also included that show, on selected >dates, both power and cars that show by class and number that particular >trains make-up. The next chapter concerns 'A New Postwar Blue Ribbon Fleet'. >This section goes into detail and shows some of the selected consists as well >as some nice interior photos of these cars, including a very nice interior >shot of Pennsy's twin-unit diner. Chapter Three pertains to 'Through Cars and >Trains of the Blue Ribbon Fleet'. Again, excellent descriptions and photos >are included. Chapter Five, pertains to 'Home from the Road: Sunnyside - The >Largest Coach Yard in the World'. This chapter contains an interesting photo >of a GG1 being pulled through a wash rack by means of a shuttle. First time >I had ever seen a photo of this procedure. Chapter Five: 'The Long Good-bye' >deals with the end of an era. >All-in-all, I think that all PRR fans (historians and modelers) will enjoy >this publication, I did. >The book contains 161 pages, and is approximately 8 1/2 x 11 inch format. I >also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" >and would be delighted to provide you with one! > >Regards, >George > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:29:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) IIRC, The Bernice branch was always the line that split off the Panhandle north of Hartsdale and ran up to the Ft. Wayne line. Amtrak used to run over it (the train from Indy). Most is now abandoned, can anybody confirm it has been ripped up or not? Also - Indiana Harbor Canal Tower on the Ft. Wayne line is still there (atleast it was 3 years ago). In decent shape, looking at it from a distance, but NO way to get a good shot. Surrounded by a Steel Mill! Frank Garon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:02:24 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Doug and Marianne" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive? Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have? I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement. I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? I assume that these two events were related. Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. Doug N. babal@slip.net --MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: GG1 retirement questions
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that = was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired.  = ;Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive?<= BR>
Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? = with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? &nb= sp;What kind of brakes do the new cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period t= o power converted heritage and newer cars.  Did NJ Transit use any HEP = cars with their GG1's?  I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heat= ed cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. &nbs= p;Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? &nbs= p;I assume that these two events were related.  

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated.  = Any and all responses are welcome.  Thanks for the information.

Doug N.

babal@slip.net

--MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:13:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) Bob, you said <> This is a new one on me. In what period of time was the Panhandle tracks on the north side of CUS referred to as the Bernice branch? I'm probably confusing this with PRR's Bernice Cutoff, which on some maps is labelled as the South Chicago & Southern. The Bernice Cutoff was the line "east" of CUS that allowed Panhandle trains to leave from CUS' "south end", pass through Englewood, and then exit the Fort Wayne main near Colehour yard for a southerly sashay of some miles down to Bernice IL, where it entered the Panhandle main for Logansport and points beyond. Putting together the Steam Powered Video Atlas maps of Chicago with the map accompanying John Swajkart's Train Watchers Guide to Chicago (Third Edition, 1987IIRC, this north-south piece of track diverged from the west end of Colehour at "Colehour Junction, and passed through: 1. Hegewisch - joining IHB 2. Wolf Lake Junction - where IHB left and headed east to the north end of IHB's Burnham Yard. 3. Burnham Crossing - is track referred to in TWG as the Bernice cutoff, crosses CSS&SB, C&WI, NS (NKP) just east of CSS' stylish and recently replaced Hegewich Station. Note: was here 2 weeks ago, hot bottle train is still running. Tower is gone. 2. Calumet Park Crossing - Bernice cutoff used to go on south to Bernice, now ends here with connection from PRR north to IHB east across B&OCT. Heavy east-west traffic here two weeks ago. Tower down, signs relocated to large relay house. 3. Bernice - where cutoff met Panhandle main coming out of CUS northend via Western Avenue, 59th Street Yard, and Dolton. Bernice was a wye connecton not far from Lansing IL, and lay just north of I-294. Outbound Panhandle passenger jobs turned left here to follow the main to Logansport. Still leaves me wondering - was the Panhandle main from CUS northend and down Chicago's near west side ever referred to as the "Bernice Branch"? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:13:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Gize, I'm not sure I understood the comment that "South Branch Bridge wasn't a separate interlocking". My impression is that it controlled the bridge but no track junctions. Pictures in the new Pennsy streamliners book of the Broadway leaving town via this bridge remind me that the South Branch Bridge (a manned interlocking) stood just north of the monstrous 21st Street interlocking (undoubtedly NOT a Pennsy block station). 21st Street Crossing is where the Pennsy's main sailed right through the middle of multiple/multiple track crossings where the Chicago &Western Indiana curved across an IC main. To this mess was added an ATSF line that crossed the PRR on its way to join the C&WI, and a GM&O line that came from the southwest and joined the Pennsy to cross the bridge and approach Union Station. This crossing was made famous/notorious by a long-running Atlas HO track ad, plus railfan shots galore from the old days when trains from Dearborn and Union Stations passed this point. Even when I visited this spot in the early 70s, there were enough curved and straight diamonds in for 21st Street to qualify as the "National Special Trackwork Museum". And I remember South Branch cabin in PC green and still separately manned. The photos in the new book confirm that South Branch cabin, a 1-story wood structure, and 21st Street Tower, a (buff-colored, vitreous?) brick 2-story structure, stood fairly close together on the east side of the Pennsy track. What they don't show is that the Santa Fe coach yard used to be tucked into the southeast corner of 22nd Street, and beyond it was Chicago's China town. I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:49:05 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Another option would be to use one of the online used book consortiums. These sites have used book dealers from all over the English speaking world. Two of them (Bibliofind http://www.bibliofind.com & Advanced Book Exchange http://www.abebooks.com) put you in direct contact with the bookseller while a third Alibris http://www.alibris.com acts as a middle man. I have good success with all three of them. I did have one experience with Alibris where they would not sell me the book because the bookseller misrepresented the condition of the book. I have seen Apex of the Atlantics listed, but I don't recall if I have seen it recently. I hope this helps in your search. Good luck. At 1:50 PM -0500 8/1/99, doug.kisala wrote: >Hello List, > >Apex of the Atlantics can be excruciatingly difficult to find. Check train >shows; at the Timonium shows, I've seen copies from $40 to $60. Also, Ron's >Books (914 967 7541, fax 914 967 7492) buys and sells out of print railroad >books. I was exceedingly lucky and found my copy at a local hobby shop when >I was living in Maryland. The book, long out of print, was expensive, but >worth it. Westing is a fantastic writer, and he explains highly technical >concepts in layman's terms, and makes them exciting. > >Good hunting!!! > >Doug > >endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > > > I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The > > title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? > > Gene Deimling > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:15:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing In a message dated 8/2/99 4:23:50 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station >> Per Chicago Division ETT No. 3, April 29, 1951, South Branch Bridge and Alton Junction were both marked as an interlocking and an interlocking station (same milepost) 22nd St. which I think is the one-story building you refer to, is East (by railroad direction, South by geography) by about 0.2 mile and is the block station. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:57:59 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 5:13 PM To: bejm@eeg.ccf.org; Bobspf@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station ================================= Western Region ETT No 6. Apr 30 1967 shows South Branch Bridge (MP 466.2) to be all three - Block Station, Interlocking and Interlocking Station (however, it did not have a radio). Also what you refer to as the 21st Tower was actually called Alton Jct. (also at MP 466.2) was only an interlocking and interlocking station - not a block station. ETT shows C&WI and IC crossing. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:56:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION In a message dated 8/2/99 2:50:04 PM EST, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << Re: Using an L-1 as a snapper on passenger trains, I believe there was a period when this was commonly done in Emporium PA up the hill to Keating Summit, on the Harrisburg/Buffalo line. I remember a photo somewhere - Staufer's PP3 runs in my mind, but I can't swear to that. I-1's (three of them) were commonly used for freight - the climb to Keating Summit was around 2.7% as I recall! Bill Bigler >> It was my impression that the term "Snapper" on the PRR referred to the use of a Yard Engine to start a heavy train, and would therefore, always be on the rear end. A "Snapper" would be used only within the Yard Limits - with no extra pay to the crew. It's my impression that the situation described above - using an extra engine up the hill - would be called a "Helper" - regardless of its position on the train, and once the extra engine crossed the Yard Limits the crew would be entitled to extra pay. COMMENTS? Dick Ross Cleveland, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:01:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) In a message dated 8/2/99 4:24:58 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << This is a new one on me. In what period of time was the Panhandle tracks on the north side of CUS referred to as the Bernice branch? >> You are correct that the line to CUS North End is the Panhandle line. I mispoke, based upon the labeling of the track diagrams "Colehour Jct. to Union Station Chicago (via Bernice)". Bernice is where the cutoff meets the Panhandle line. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 22:09:57 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions I bet we could set up a chapter web site on one-list without incurring a necessity for dues. John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > > Along with all the responses to be included (thanks!), I've received > numerous queries about the Cyber Chapter. Here are a few details: > > > > > 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing list or for serving a chapter web site http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for implementation costs. A private chapter list would allow discussion of chapter business only, with historical/modeling discussion continuing on "PRR-Talk". I foresee a private area (via password) on the chapter web site which would gain members access to new benefits. These may include (finally) a "universal" web index, special product discounts from various vendors, etc. How and what it would include would be determined by the charter members via the private list. Dues? Perhaps. My thought is that we should have them, say $10 a year. True, we don't have the costs other chapters incur for meeting space, etc., but it could place us in an advantageous condition to sponsor restoration work that other chapters can only do via fund drives. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:47:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics In a message dated 8/2/99 6:55:46 PM Central Daylight Time, djwartel@ix.netcom.com writes: << Another option would be to use one of the online used book consortiums. These sites have used book dealers from all over the English speaking world. Two of them (Bibliofind http://www.bibliofind.com & Advanced Book Exchange http://www.abebooks.com) put you in direct contact with the bookseller while a third Alibris http://www.alibris.com acts as a middle man. >> Also try Bookfinder.com. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions Date: Tue, 3 Aug 99 06:19:45 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/2/99 10:09 PM, John F. Ryan, Jr. (RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net) wrote: >> 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing >>list or for serving a chapter web site http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If >>the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with >>them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for >>implementation costs. > >I bet we could set up a chapter web site on one-list without incurring a >necessity for dues. John: Did you miss something, or did I post in another language? I was pretty clear in saying that a chapter web site and list would not cost the chapter anything! The membership will decide if there are dues. My thought was that since there will be little or no operating costs for running the chapter, it might be nice to still have dues so we can jump on opportunities to purchase/transport PRR rolling stock, etc., to a museum site for restoration. Last year there was such a case, the online group could not raise the funds in a timely manner, and the opportunity was lost. If we had a treasury, we could jump on such an opportunity. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:26:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) In a message dated 8/2/99 5:40:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FRANKGARON@aol.com writes: << IIRC, The Bernice branch was always the line that split off the Panhandle north of Hartsdale and ran up to the Ft. Wayne line. Amtrak used to run over it (the train from Indy). Most is now abandoned, can anybody confirm it has been ripped up or not? >> John Munson and I were railfanning our way to St. Paul two weeks ago, and we saw the hot ladle car movement (2 ladles and spacers, I believe) go north on it at Burnham Crossing, which lies across the west end of South Shore's Burnham Yard. The tower is down. That train must shift over to IHB tracks north of Burnham Crossing, because the Steam Powered Video maps by Mike Walker show the north end of it up to Colehour abandoned. Going south a little on the Bernice Branch, we saw where it has been lifted south of Calumet Junction (crossing of B&OCT and IHB lines). Just south of this point, we could see where it used to cross Dolton Road. The nex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:24:01 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's Hi: I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, I apologize. Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. Also, were the whistles of the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I correct? Please help. Thanks: Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] E-6 Help Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:39:14 -0700 I would like to thank the many folks on who helped in my quest for a book on E-6 Atlantics. I have zeroed in on one. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:17:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] More Photos Needed -- Northern Central Branch From: "Jerry Britton" For my PRRT&HS book "The Pennsylvania Railroad in York County, Pennsylvania", I still need a few photos of the Northern Central branch between York (city) and the Pennsylvania/Maryland state line. This would include the towns of New Freedom, Glen Rock, Hanover Junction, Seven Valleys, Smysers, etc. If anyone has such photos, in a PRR era, showing trains, structures, locos, or unusual rolling stock, please contact me. Full credit will be given to both the photographer and whose collection it is from (if different). I will need to borrow the photo(s) for scanning purposes, but quick turnaround is promised. If you don't want it out of your sight and you are local to Northern York County (where I live), you can come to my place to visit while I perform the scanning. It takes about four minutes to process each image. This book is tentatively scheduled to be published by the society and distributed at the 2000 Convention next May. I am receiving no financial reward from this project. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Inquiry: Whereabouts of Geo. Straits Circus Train Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:13:11 -0400 Does anyone on the list know the present location of the Geo. Straits Circus train? It was originally scheduled to be somehwere around Buffalo, Rochester, or Syracuse, NY at this time. Any help would be very much appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:36:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Hi Doug and List Members, W/ respect to GG1 motor retirement on the NE corridor, Doug asked: > I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. Did > this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? I assume > that these two events were related. It apparently became uneconomical to continue operation with an oddball power line voltage and frequency (11,000 volts at 25 Hz), and so this was converted to 12,500 volts at 60Hz using the same catenary, but obviously with new equipment in terms of substations, etc. However, I believe the power conversion was gradual, and happened sections at a time over the course of years. I recall reading somewhere (this list?) that there is still one or more section(s) operating at the origional voltage somewhere on the corridor. > Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any > and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. I believe there is a GG1 web site out these in webland someplace. Anyone have the URL? Many GG1's still exist, for those wishing to visit & see them. - Claus (who got interested in the Pennsy by train-watching ex-PRR GG1's running on ex-NH trackage during the PC era!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 11:44:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's From: "Jerry Britton" > I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, > I apologize. You shall be banished to the deepest, darkest dungeons with nothing but ExLax and water! No, seriously... >Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the > correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it > was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. I am 99% comfortable in saying that it was definitely on the east slope, not Cresson, and pretty sure it was in the neighborhood of SLOPE. I'm sure the exact answer will roll in shortly. FWIW, the eastern end was at BANKS, just west of Harrisburg. > Also, were the whistles of > the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is > offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I > correct? It is worth noting that lister Don Harper is working with Soundtrax on production of some new sound systems using recordings available from the PRRT&HS, with their permission, of course. I don't know how long it'll be till these products see the light of day, but they may be worth waiting for. Don, any update? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:59:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Colehour-Bernice, current All track shown as abandonded in the Steam Power Videos atlas was pulled up a few years ago. A bicycle path is planned for it. The remaining track is used several times daily for "bottle trains" to the IHB-PRR line. There is also some freight operation to South Deering yard (CWI). A short section of new track extends to the south side of the Calumet River ("D" area) for a future barge-rail-truck facility. The short section indicated as "Wolf Lake Junction" still exists but obviously has not been used for years. Bob Leffingwell Chicago (Hegewisch) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:17:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Colehour-Bernice, current Hi Bob: Any clues as to how to get a good shot of Indiana Harbor Canal tower? I'm liable to rent a boat or helicoptor! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:08:47 -0400 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] P5a details Hello, I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. I am in need some detail information. Perhaps someone here can help. I'd like to know what the inside controls looked like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior color information would be useful as well. I've been going by photos and scale drawings and have most of the outside details understood. One area though seems to excape me. On the side of both the box cabs and the modified were what looked like air vents. On some of the box cabs these areas had horizontal lovers. On others and the modifieds these areas look like vertical screens. None of my photos give clear detail of the screens. Can anyone describe the construction of these screens. I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there are some around somewhere. In case you are wondering, I'm building these in S scale to go along with the B1 i just finished. Thanks for any help, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:48:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Jerry Britton" >> Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any >> and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. > > I believe there is a GG1 web site out these in webland someplace. > Anyone have the URL? Many GG1's still exist, for those wishing > to visit & see them. Try http://www.spikesys.com/gg1.html -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:56:18 -0400 (EDT) > I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, > I apologize. Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the > correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it > was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. Also, were the whistles of > the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is > offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I > correct? Please help. Per PRR employe[e] timetables, it was SLOPE for quite a while. Do you have a specific time period in mind? -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:57:46 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" Guys (what, no ladies?): While I'm not doubting it has been written as such, the so-called Bernice branch was usually called the SC&S (the South Chicago & Southern), a proprietary line built in the early 1880s by the Pennsylvania Company to reach the Indiana town of East Chicago, and to provide a shortcut off the Pan Handle. While I have seen Railroad Gazette stories which indicate the Pennsylvania Lines intended to divert most of the Southwest system passenger trains up the SC&S shortly after the line was built, the cramped conditions at Chicago Union Station prevented implementation of that plan. Not until a new CUS was undertaken prior to WWI was this possible to any degree; and even then, locals continued to ply the Pan Handle's "back-door" entry to CUS through the late 'twenties. The SC&S also hosted an interesting looped commuter service with trains traversing its line via Hegewisch and E. Chicago, and over the Ft. Wayne, turning (or looping) at Clarke Jct. Samuel Insull's revitalization of the South Shore Line killed off the PL service around WWI. Unfortunately, it is all mostly gone, with only about a mile left in place from the site of Calumet Park interlocking north to service industry. And I believe this brief segment is used only by the IHB. The SC&S main (and the remaining Pan Handle) was lifted about 5 years ago after Amtrak rerouted The Cardinal. Previously the train utilized the SC&S and Pan Handle as far as Maynard and the CSX (ex-Monon). With the loss of this piece of track also came destruction of Hartsdale tower, where the PL passed under Hwy 41 in Schererville. Also long gone is the original SC&S line which included the so-called "Wolf Lake branch" from Hegewisch to Hammond, and the State Line & Indiana City east to Clarke. Don't quote me, but I do believe a segment of one of the SC&S branches (called Right of Ways in the ETTs) still exists south of Whiting, operated by the IHB. This is probably a lot more than you cared to know. Sorry, but there is always the "delete" button.. Regards, R. T. Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:41:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The GG-1s and all other locomotives supply(ed) air to the coaches for = braking purposes. They still do, although the method of applying the = brakes has changed over the years since the GG-1s did not have dynamic = braking the way the newer locomotives do. They now use what is called = "blended braking" which is a combination of dynamic and air braking. = Without getting too technical, suffice it to say there are several = variations of this method and it is used on rapid transit and mu cars as = well. On the subject of the conversion from 25HZ to 60. All of the = electrically powered vehicles constructed after about 1972 or so (I = believe the New Haven MUs may have been the first) were equipped with = multiple transformer taps where they could be easily changed from = 11,000V 25Hz to 12,500 60HZ to 25,000V 60HZ. I believe they could be = changed automatically on the fly if necessary. The GG-1s and E-44s = were never retrofitted. The E-60s were built with the conversion. So = when the conversion took place in the early 1980s, the GG-1s had to go = and hence cannot even be used in excursion service without an entirely = new transformer being installed, a major undertaking. Does this help? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Doug and Marianne To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions =20 =20 With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that = was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired. = Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the = locomotive? =20 Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, = and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End = Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have? =20 I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the = transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ = Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired = all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement. =20 I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to = 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the = GG1's? I assume that these two events were related. =20 =20 Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is = appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the = information. =20 Doug N. =20 babal@slip.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: GG1 retirement questions
The GG-1s and all other locomotives = supply(ed)=20 air to the coaches for braking purposes.  They still do, although = the=20 method of applying the brakes has changed over the years since the GG-1s = did not=20 have dynamic braking the way the newer locomotives do.  They now = use what=20 is called "blended braking" which is a combination of dynamic = and air=20 braking.  Without getting too technical, suffice it to say there = are=20 several variations of this method and it is used on rapid transit and mu = cars as=20 well.
 
On the subject of the conversion from 25HZ to = 60.  All of=20 the electrically powered vehicles constructed after about 1972 or so (I = believe=20 the New Haven MUs may have been the first) were equipped with multiple=20 transformer taps where they could be easily changed from 11,000V 25Hz to = 12,500=20 60HZ to 25,000V 60HZ.   I believe they could be changed = automatically=20 on the fly if necessary.   The GG-1s and E-44s were never=20 retrofitted.  The E-60s were built with the conversion.  So = when the=20 conversion took place in the early 1980s, the GG-1s had to go and hence = cannot=20 even be used in excursion service without an entirely new transformer = being=20 installed,  a major undertaking.
 
Does this help?
 
Bill V.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Doug and Marianne <babal@slip.net>
To: = prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Monday, August 02, 1999 7:10 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 = retirement questions

With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I = believe=20 that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were = also=20 retired.  Did these cars also have air brakes with air = supplied=20 from the locomotive?

Is it correct that the replacement = cars were=20 heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from = the=20 locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)?  What kind of brakes do = the new=20 cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car = during=20 the transition period to power converted heritage and newer = cars.=20  Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's?  I = assume=20 that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the = GG1=20 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was = changed=20 from 25 to 60Hz.  Did this change happen immediately = following=20 retirement of the GG1's?  I assume that these two events = were=20 related.  

Any other information on the retirement = of the=20 GG1's is appreciated.  Any and all responses are welcome.=20  Thanks for the information.

Doug=20 = N.

babal@slip.net

------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:30:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" & Other Branch Histories From: "Jerry Britton" > While I'm not doubting it has been written as such, the so-called > Bernice branch was usually called the SC&S (the South Chicago & > Southern) If Richard, or someone, were to take the time to compile all of this Bernice Branch discussion into a branch history, I'd like to include it in the "Hobo's Guide to the PRR" on "Keystone Crossings". See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/index.html That goes for other branches as well. Check out the current guide. If your favorite branch history isn't yet written, contact me for details about becoming an editor for that branch's history. There's a lot of good content there already, why not add to it? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:13:05 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Inquiry: Whereabouts of Geo. Straits Circus Train Hello Terry Just as a future reference,,,,,it is the James E. Strates train and the Erie County Fair and Expo (which they come to town for) is being held from August 11-22. According to the Strates Shows webpage at http://www.strates.com/route.htm July 23 - Aug. 1 Essex - Middle River Fair Baltimore, Maryland Aug. 11 - Aug. 22 Erie County Fair Hamburg, New York Which basically means they should be heading this way some time real soon. They usually come up the Buffalo Line from Harrisburg to Buffalo where the train is handed off to the Buffalo Southern at BC Junction. I havent heard anything about them as of today but I can imagine that it will be here sometime in the next few days. On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, W. Terry Stuart wrote: >Does anyone on the list know the present location of the Geo. Straits Circus >train? > >It was originally scheduled to be somehwere around Buffalo, Rochester, or >Syracuse, NY at this time. > >Any help would be very much appreciated. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:20:06 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Keith, >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. Way to go! (good luck on the modified ...getting the contours right can be a bugger!). BTW, asre you going to scratchbuild the driver centers? I'm having a tough time finding appropriate drivers in HO. >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior >color information would be useful as well. I believe that the interior color was a light, "apple green" as on steam locos. Remember that the bodies of these locos are DGLE and the frames, pilots and running gear are black. >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and >have most of the outside details understood. One >area though seems to excape me. On the side of >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked >like air vents. Traction motor blower vents...I look tonight for the differences you mention >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there >are some around somewhere. One was saved. One of the only two P5 locos (the prototypes for the P5a) #4700 is in residence at the St. Louis transportation museum. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:57:19 -0400 Give me a few days and I will dig out the operator's manual for the P-5a's and I am sure there is a photo in there of the operator's controls. I will scan it and send it to you. Bare with me til I find the book though! Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: Keith B. Thompson - Sun To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 2:34 PM Subject: [PRR] P5a details > >Hello, > >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. I >am in need some detail information. Perhaps >someone here can help. > >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior >color information would be useful as well. > >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and >have most of the outside details understood. One >area though seems to excape me. On the side of >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked >like air vents. On some of the box cabs these areas >had horizontal lovers. On others and the modifieds these >areas look like vertical screens. None of my photos give >clear detail of the screens. Can anyone describe the >construction of these screens. > >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there >are some around somewhere. > >In case you are wondering, I'm building these in >S scale to go along with the B1 i just finished. > >Thanks for any help, >kbt > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:58:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's In a message dated 8/3/99 10:38:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, reynoldl@gte.net writes: << Can anyone tell me what the correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. >> My 1946 PRR blueprint of Altoona Yard shows it to be just west of 24th Street, Slope is East of 24th Street. CT 1000E shows it to be Mile Post 131.8. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:23:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR Gentlemen, Ray at Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami needs to paint an OMI pile driver for PRR. His questions were three: 1. How late did these steam-powered pile drivers stay in service, and where were they used? 2. Where can he locate pics of them, either in service or in transit. 3. What kind of tender would have been assigned to this pile driver, and would it have been black or MoW yellow? My indexing comes up a little short on this question, so I though I'd ask the experts--- anybody know where we can find the answers? Rick Tipton Rowing frantically toward the end of Lot Three's hardware auction, including 4 PRR oval builders' plates. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:59:54 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Richard Wallis Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 1:58 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" South Chicago & Southern Railroad Company Chronological Statement of the Construction Thereof - Page 747 Volume III C&C PRR 1945 Report 1887- Colehour to Bernice,IL, 9.29 miles by the SC&S RR Co (No 1) Hegewisch, IL to IL-IN State Line, 1.32 miles by SC&S RR Co (No 1) 1888- IL-IN State Line east of Hegewisch, IL to East Chicago, IN, 3.5 miles by State Line and Indiana City Railway Co. 1893- East Chicago, IL to Clarke Jct, IL, 4.51 miles by SL&IC Rwy. Co. 1895- 100th Street, Chicago to Hegewish, IL, 4.43 miles by The Calumet River Railway Co. 1903- Clarke Jct. to Pine Jct, IN, 1.32 miles by SC&S RR Co (No 2) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:21:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing In a message dated 8/3/99 10:52:34 AM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << I don't know about 22nd St; since I don't remember it, and it doesn't appear in a zillion pictures, it's hard to say. >> In the dim recesses of my mind I seem to remember a photo of a conductor stopping at a shack to pick up train orders-I have to find the photo to see if it was the 21st St. single-story or the mysterious 22nd St. shack. Map I have does have outlines of a shed just South of 22nd St. and East of the Pennsy main 1953-1960 era anyway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:40:00 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions --Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to Doug N and the list, My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the following from memory. The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this correction. If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again visit the Northeast Corridor. The stuff dreams are made of.... The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well. From what I recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class. The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the locomotive). Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet cars. This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars. I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that arrived in 1983. Hope this helps!! Doug Kisala Doug and Marianne wrote: > > > With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe > that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars > were also retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with > air supplied from the locomotive? > > Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, > lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the > locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do > the new cars have? > > I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the > transition period to power converted heritage and newer > cars. Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I > assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the > time of the GG1 retirement. > > I also understand that the catenary power was changed from > 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following > retirement of the GG1's? I assume that these two events > were related. > > Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is > appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for > the information. > > Doug N. > > babal@slip.net > > --Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to Doug N and the list,

My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the following from memory.  The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this correction.  If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again visit the Northeast Corridor.   The stuff dreams are made of....

The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well.  From what I recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class.

The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981.  One shot of ex-PRR 4935 raises some questions.  She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car.  Perhaps the GG1 electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the locomotive).

Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet cars.  This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars.

I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that arrived in 1983.

Hope this helps!!

Doug Kisala
 
 

Doug and Marianne wrote:

 
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired.  Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive?

Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)?  What kind of brakes do the new cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars.  Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's?  I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz.  Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's?  I assume that these two events were related.

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated.  Any and all responses are welcome.  Thanks for the information.

Doug N.

babal@slip.net
 

--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:24:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's As a follow-up I have a track Chart the shows the Division Post at signal bridge SB2373 right in front of "Slope," 237.46 miles from Philadelphia. The eastern end is at mile 1825 feet beyond mile marker 113 from Philly. As Jerry indicated, that places it at "Banks" Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] 130P75 Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:12:18 -0700 I noticed a hatch on the side of K-4 #612's tender. What is the purpose of this door/hatch? Do all 130P75 have this feature? Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 00:04:36 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions dougkisala wrote: > > Hello to Doug N and the list, > The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 > raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III > pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 > electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that > heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate > it from the locomotive). I believe HEP is 480V 3 phase. Since the electrification is only single phase some form of power generation or conversion would be necessary to provide Head End Power. Were generator sets or converters ever applied to GG1s?? I have not heard of any such application. If the heritage car was provided power it wouldn't matter which end it was on. Have fun, J.W.Rosenbauer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz From: Fred G Rea Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 22:15:35 EDT I have been noticing the GG1 thread and the discussion of what is in the overhead. I can see how one might carefully transition from 11KV to 12.5 KV in sections overtime. However, the change from 25Hz to 60 Hz seem hard to imagine. As a retired EE who used to make transformers many years ago, I am concerned about any attempt to run 60 Hz equipment on 25 Hz. It would "saturate" the iron. That is, it would magnetically over load the cores of transformers and rotating machines. The only way to avoid that would be to lower all voltages by a factor of 25/60 or less than one half. Was this change made or, as a recent post suggests, is the system still 25 Hz? If it was made, what are details of the steps taken to do it? While I am a life long (61 years) rail fan and lover of the PRR and particularly GG1s, I was out of the loop most of the 80's and what not aware of any of this other than the retirement of the GG1s. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Name??? Bill, List. I havn't been reading all the emails lately because I am down here in Sunny Daytona Beach watching all the female cabooses. Like a dummy I brought my webtv omputer with me. I see you are wanting to do a talk style format too. Still looking for a name? How about THE WHISTLE POST? Kinda serious I know but I figured to leave the funny ones to the rest of you guys. Now, I need some sleep so I can hit the beach again tomorrow.......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 22:52:55 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Howdy All: - just my two cents worth We seem to have many different versions of the something here. Is the Harrisburg extension still at 11 kV @ 25 Hz - As far as I can tell no transformers have been replaced, no circuit breakers have been replaced and no commercial feeds are in place at the Enola substation and its almost all gone too. PE is making all the power for this line in the Philadelphia area, since all the generator sets have been removed along with the substation equipment at Safe Harbor - more than likely Arsenal Bridge is supplying all the 25 Hz left. So my bet is the Harrisburg line is still and will remain 25 Hz. I would also support the notion that the Harrisburg line electrification is on the way out - at least past Downingtown. I can't remember the last time I saw anything other than an ugly GE or F40 with a train out this way. Also the state of PA wants to add more diesel powered train sets. I have lived next to this line in Mount Joy for about 12 years now. The last AEM7 that I remember seeing was back when the F40s where still common. The multi-tapped transformer is the norm in the AEM/ALP and E60s. As stated by Bill all electrically powered vehicles have had this since '72. The new stuff being installed to boston is setup for 25 kV @ 60 Hz. With Conrails decision to end electric operation - Amtrak (even though they forced the end) was still in bad way having to purchase its electrical power from a closed source. It stands to reason that Amtrak et all, wanted to reduce their dependency on specialized equipment and suppliers by switching to the more standard 60 Hz. The cost justification had to be based on the ability to purchase "standard" power on the open market at a substantial savings and get out of the power manufacturing business ( Long Island City) altogether. Did PE and the other suppliers have a surcharge for 25 Hz power? On the Corridor where increased horsepower requirements have necessitated the conversion to 60 Hz to supply the need. Since there is a direct connection between power and cycles/minute (Hertz or Hz), it would also be reasonable to propose an increase in efficiency (increased efficiency = more horsepower/ kwh) helped the decision also. So this all brings us back to the question of why was the GG1 retired. My vote goes to the tired frames and just plan worn out. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest respect for the GG1, the men who built, ran and maintained them. They where/are the greatest examples of mainline electric engines ever (IMHO). I have tried to think of other main line high speed locomotives that have had such a career, and can think of none - steam, diesel or other (high speed continuos service - not resurrected or switching - yes there are early GPs out there but how many have been doing 60 mph for 40+ years - straight SD40s are just now going over the 30 year mark - how many of them are still out there). It would be nice to see a GG1 run again with a new transformer (the remedial cost at their scrapping most have been in the several thousand a piece). I can't blame it all on the conversion to 60 Hz, but I bet it helped. I'll take my PRR electrification in the late 50's to early 60's, where double and triple headed G's worked up the river and still did 70 to 90 something through Mount Joy. Cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:59:16 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:22 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing 22nd Street (MP 466.0) appears as an entry in the 1967 ETT Western Region Main Line Pittsburgh to Chicago station pages, between 40th St interlocking, and interlocking station (MP463.8) and Alton Jct interlocking and interlocking station (MP 466.2) From this I would surmise that at one time it had some sort of status or was a location point for some reason. I though Bob Z's previous post from Chi Div ETT c. 1951 listed it as a block station? Al =================================== In a message dated 8/3/99 10:52:34 AM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << I don't know about 22nd St; since I don't remember it, and it doesn't appear in a zillion pictures, it's hard to say. >> In the dim recesses of my mind I seem to remember a photo of a conductor stopping at a shack to pick up train orders-I have to find the photo to see if it was the 21st St. single-story or the mysterious 22nd St. shack. Map I have does have outlines of a shed just South of 22nd St. and East of the Pennsy main 1953-1960 era anyway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 21:34:30 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Thank you for the information, Bruce...I would likd to add another question: What is the function of the flat-sided but tapered tanks under the carbodies, along the sides, at one or more ends (not the round air reservoirs, if that is what THEY are)? My guess is boiler fuel tanks, but I have always wondered. Keith, Trains Mag for September, 1975, ran a good article on the P-5a. Sadly, there are no pix of the cab interior, but the article does say the cabs on the boxcabs were open into the carbody. I will be happy to send you a copy if you like. Steve Bartlett Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > > Keith, > > >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can > >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. > > Way to go! (good luck on the modified ...getting the contours right can > be a bugger!). BTW, asre you going to scratchbuild the driver centers? > I'm having a tough time finding appropriate drivers in HO. > > >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked > >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior > >color information would be useful as well. > > I believe that the interior color was a light, "apple green" as on steam > locos. Remember that the bodies of these locos are DGLE and the frames, > pilots and running gear are black. > > >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and > >have most of the outside details understood. One > >area though seems to excape me. On the side of > >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked > >like air vents. > > Traction motor blower vents...I look tonight for the differences you mention > > >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there > >are some around somewhere. > > One was saved. One of the only two P5 locos (the prototypes for the P5a) > #4700 is in residence at the St. Louis transportation museum. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:37:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Are you sure the gen sets and substation have been removed from Safe Harbor ? The reason I say this is that Amtrak still owns the cat poles and high tension lines along the A&S and the lines are still energized. All the groups that want to turn the row into a rail-trail have run up against this problem of the live transmission lines. It's my belief that the western end of the electrification ( Parkesburg to Harris ) is fed from Safe Harbor. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 Passenger Snappers (was :Book:Pennsy Streamliners) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:00:52 -0500 L1's as helpers on passenger trains on Horseshoe Curve have appeared in at least a couple of videos. The Keystone of September 1980 has a good article on the L1. There are two photos of L1's with passenger bar style pilots, 139 on the cover and 6306. The caption indicates that "During the 1940's some L1s got passenger pilots for use on mail and express and troop trains." Both photos show the engines equipped with 90F75 tenders. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 00:22:12 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Doug and Marianne" These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move of some sort. The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among others) was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe that NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and storage batteries on each car. The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the era of the steam locomotive. I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 years to produce something better. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:49:21 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BEDE4D.DCC37E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am pretty sure the northeast corridor is all 60 HZ. I know that when = the NJT converted from DC to AC they went to 60HZ so it would make sense = for the rest of the deal to go at the same time. Originally the founding fathers wanted everything to be 50,000 VAC 60HZ = like they do in Europe but the close clearances in Penn Station NY = prevented that so they decided on 25,000 for the "Eastern US" standard = and 50KV for the "Western US Standard" as in Black Mesa and Lake Powell, = Deserette Western, B.C. Rail etc. 25KV was still too much for good ole Penn Station so 12.5 was adopted. = I think from New HAven to Boston they plan on 25KV. 60 HZ. Anyone else care to chime in? -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: Doug and Marianne ; prr-talk@dsop.com = Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions =20 =20 Hello to Doug N and the list,=20 My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the = following from memory. The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, = 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this = correction. If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated = biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again = visit the Northeast Corridor. The stuff dreams are made of....=20 The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on = the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well. From what I = recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, = and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class.=20 The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 = raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III = pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 = electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage = car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the = locomotive).=20 Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet = cars. This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the = GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars.=20 I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated = cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern = incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service = until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and = F40PHs that arrived in 1983.=20 Hope this helps!!=20 Doug Kisala=20 =20 =20 Doug and Marianne wrote:=20 =20 With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe = that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also = retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the = locomotive?=20 Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, = lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive = (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have?=20 I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the = transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ = Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired = all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.=20 I also understand that the catenary power was changed from = 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of = the GG1's? I assume that these two events were related.=20 Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is = appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the = information.=20 Doug N.=20 babal@slip.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BEDE4D.DCC37E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: