Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Official Formation Date: Sun, 1 Aug 99 14:16:55 -0400 From: Jerry This is for national PRRT&HS members only: If you are interested in working with me to form the Offical Cyber Chapter of the PRRT&HS, please e-mail me (off-list) with your full name, city, state, phone number, and PRRT&HS membership number. I have updated the Cyber Chapter web page and included a proposed list of objectives. Please share your comments: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:39:03 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer T-1 Greg, Roger, and the List, My only concern for you is your desire to have an engine quickly. I also have a Bowser T-1 with the Alco Products can motors, and assembly will take you a couple of weeks, at least. Mine has stretched out over a year and a half now (OTS and three moves having slowed my progress somewhat). This is the kind of kit you want to build slowly and carefully. My mechanisms went together well, and now, I'm putting on a few boiler details every couple of days. Done this way, it's quite relaxing. If you want an engine quickly, check Bowser's web site; they have a few PRR engines ready to run. They don't have the superdetail kits, but they'll pull small houses, and you can buy the Alco Products can motors for them and install them in about an hour. You could also purchase the Spectrum K4s engines; they're ready to run, and the new ones have improved mechanisms (though some still consider them suspect due to the poor running qualities of the first batches), though they don't pull nearly as much as the Bowser engines (on a club layout, this can become a factor quickly). Doug Greg Johnson wrote: > I believe that Bowser (or English) sells the Alco remotoring kits now. Try > them direct for both items. You can call their shop tomorrow (Saturday) and > find out. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Elliott > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:25 PM > Subject: [PRR] Boswer T-1 > > >Hey Jerry and anyone else out there too, > >I want to buy a Bowser T-1 and I also want to get the ALCO remotor kit. > >What is the fastest way I can get these items? There is a club that has > >asked for my help to run trains at a county fair and I don't have an HO > >engine of my own, so I want to get one ASAP. > > > >I've got the address of the ALCO fellow and I just found the phone > >number. How does he usually take payments? Or is there a source for > >his drive kits that can send to me pronto? > > > >Thanks for the Help, > >Roger Elliott > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention, National Society, Etc. (long) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 99 13:49:47 -0400 From: Jerry Sorry if I get long-winded here... I had the first of what is likely to be several "heart to hearts" with Walt Keely yesterday. We spoke of the convention, a cyber chapter, this list, attitudes towards nationals, etc. Walt and I have agreed to open new lines of communications between us -- kind of an "air clearing" thing -- so that I, for the benefit of the list, have a direct line into the national society. It seems that one or more individuals on this list are forwarding posts (mostly by me) to Walt and others that contain content about the society. In my opionion (and others!), the folks that do this forwarding are "ferrets", "weasels" and "rats" (not to be confused with the B-1's). Why? 1. "PRR-Talk" is a public, unmoderated list. If national officers want to know what is being said, they should subscribe direct. They don't have to make posts, in which case nobody would even know they are on the list. They can also subscribe via digest mode to reduce the mail to one or two a day. Since this is the case, there should be no reason for anyone to forward posts unless they have their own hidden agenda. 2. The archive of "PRR-Talk" is publicly available, with about a 24-hour delay, and even non-subscribers have access to it. Any national officer could perform a search and find out exactly what was said and by whom. 3. Most importantly, in some instances, the data that is being forwarded are excerpts. This often prevents the whole story from being told. More importantly, and in my case, it can make words appear to be mine when I am requoting what someone else actually said. There have been numerous derogatory comments about national that are attributed to me that were not my words. I have voiced some negative comments (check the archive), but many complaints are not mine. For the record, I am very pro-national. Though I disagree with a few things now and then, I believe it is a good organization with a phenomenal magazine in "The Keystone" (which is worth the dues alone). The "PRR-Talk" track that was developed for the upcoming convention was out of a voiced need from this list. It was not announced to the society at large, though reports back to national make it appear that our intent is to be a competing group, which it is not. These events were only announced to the online group, which has little bearing on the overall society. Unfortunately for the society, the Lewistown trip has been cancelled. While our sessions would be beneficial to the society as a whole, the venue at the museum will not hold the volume of individuals likely to attend were they held at the hotel. Furthermore, the organizers of this track agree that we owe it to the museum -- which has been very generous to us on this and prior RailFest events -- to continue to maintain that venue. To further complicate matters, the hotel can only offer additional meeting space to the society until 3 p.m. on Friday. Walt has arranged for one seminar on Friday afternoon, at the hotel, on M-1's. Now we have an unfortunate situation where we appear to have two groups competing for attendence, though not by intent. I have suggested to Walt that we try to move the M-1 session to the museum, in the morning, so as to have only one seminar venue. We could also suggest that the masses just plain visit the museum as the "formal" activity for all of Friday. (I have not heard back from Walt yet.) I have heard through the grapevine -- unconfirmed -- that Walt has arranged for the Cincinatti Modelers group to do a talk. Hopefully that would be Saturday after the banquet, as I would like to see it AND I am sure we all want to see a session then anyway. Walt is working on an updated schedule, to be mailed to registrants this week. (The M-1 and modeling sessions are tentative...wait for your schedule for confirmation of any and all events.) I have asked Walt to include our events in the mailing. I don't know if that will happen or not. It is also worth noting that we arranged for PRRT&HS members to receive a $2 discount at the museum. I want to be very clear: It was not and is not our intent to compete with the national organization. However, our seminar track at the museum will remain as scheduled. Walt is working hard to fill in the blanks and I support him and the society in doing so. Looking ahead, Walt and I have agreed to have further discussions about the online contingent AND about the establishment of a "cyber chapter". He has verbally voiced support of this chapter and I will be pursuing it with he and the other national officers. I think that there is a lot we can contribute to the society...look what we arranged in the past four weeks! Hopefully I have covered everything and have done so in a clear manner. My wife is out of town and I have two screaming kids pulling at my legs, so bear with me if I need to clarify any points. Thanks. I have BCC'd this to Walt directly, so there is little chance of misinterpretation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:50:51 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Hello List, Apex of the Atlantics can be excruciatingly difficult to find. Check train shows; at the Timonium shows, I've seen copies from $40 to $60. Also, Ron's Books (914 967 7541, fax 914 967 7492) buys and sells out of print railroad books. I was exceedingly lucky and found my copy at a local hobby shop when I was living in Maryland. The book, long out of print, was expensive, but worth it. Westing is a fantastic writer, and he explains highly technical concepts in layman's terms, and makes them exciting. Good hunting!!! Doug endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The > title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? > Gene Deimling > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 22:15:43 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Railroad musings Hello Folks... This is a bit off topic...but some of you might want to hear about some of this. Over the weekend i visited my step-mom and also talked to her brother-in law who is manager of Amtrak's high speed testing. On the way up and back i noticed this.... NS is installing new signals somewhere between Suffolk,Va. and Petersburg,Va. I saw some gondolas sitting on a siding in Disputanta (SP ?)Va. with a bunch of the old PRR like signals in them... My guess would be they are going to scrap. These were the signal mast,targets and lights...also some of the signal equipment. Now the Amtrak news. As some know the new Acela train is being tested out at the Pubelo, Colo. test site. Doug (my step moms brother in law) told me this.... The train will not be ready for its October debut. There are too many bugs to work out (Hmmmm reminds me of the Original Metroliners). They have tested the train up to 207 MPH. The crews who will eventially run the trains will have to be very computer literate. There are several computer interfaces onboard the train for the Conductor and asst Conductor to use. The Conductor's will have a laptop to access the interfaces. Engineers will be given different level access cards (similar to a credit card) that will give them access to the power car. Different employees will have different cards depending on their qualifications. Road crews will have a card that will let them operate the train up to road speeds. Yard crews will have cards that will only allow them speeds up to 20 MPH in yard switching. Maintanance Crews will have a card for up to 10 MPH. Some of the contols for the train are.... Automatic speed reduction to 30 MPH if any of the train doors are opened. Conductors will have a card that will allow them to open the doors overiding the usual door functions (not the 30 MPH feature) The old "church key" type lock system is going to be done away with. Acela trains have electric brakes and also regenerative braking. There are no independant or train brake controls in the power cars. All brake fuctions are tied into the throttle. If a emergency application is needed the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. The train has wheel slip indicators. During one high speed test they had one of the Brake fuctions inoperatable and it took 28 MILES to stop it. Both power cars are set up to regenerate power to the overhead line when this feature is used. But i was told that the train is generating too much power back to the line than what is acceptable. One of the problems they are having with it is the old lateral stress and motion problem. At speeds up to 130 MPH it works fine. But at speeds over 130 up to 200 and because of the tilt mechanism and truck design the power car trucks want to "Hunt" I was told that they want to travel from side to side on the rails at these speeds. Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly higher speed that the lead power car. This leads to the rest of the train being bunched up between the two power cars. There is also some trouble still with the tilt mechanism. Also out at the test site Doug also saw this.... The japanese don't have a test site for some of their trains so.... They have a new high speed train that they are testing that changes gauges at speed. I was'nt told how it does it, and also the Japanese are doing the tests at night from 12 AM until about 8 AM in the morning to help keep folks from seeing how the train does this. The only time Amtrak personnel can see it is between 7 and 8 AM. This train has been tested up to 100 MPH so far. They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car held up well. This type of testing probably stems from the recent Amtrak and commuter crashes. All new Amtrak cars will have to go through this type of testing. I'd like to see what a Acela train does at 150 MPH ! UP and EMD are testing the MAC90. This engine has 8000 H.P. They tied (if i remember right) 8 engines to this loco and set the dynamic and emergency brakes on them. Then they started the MAC90...it moved them ! (I'd like to know how they kept the couplers from braking) They are now running this engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week for a endurance test. It is remotely controled and the only time it stops is for fuel. EMD wants to run it up to 100,000 miles. 10 freight cars a week are blown up (hey thats what i was told) so railroad and emergency personnel can learn what to do in derailments. I would guess old cars that are ready for retirement are used for this. TTX is testing a car that carries containers 2 high by 2 wide. TTX wants to increase what present cars can carry. No word on stability and clearances for these cars. I would guess Western roads might be able to use a car like this in some places. Some of BNSF's former Sante Fe lines were rebuilt a while back with more distances between two sets of tracks. Who knows ? Til Later H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:55:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H37b's and H39's(Reply) Rich Orr writes: << The first class of PRR hoppers to ride on roller bearing trucks were H42 cylindrical covered hoppers. >> Gize, What I think Rich meant to say is that the first class of PRR hoppers to ride on roller bearing trucks were the H-33 covered two bay hoppers. The practice was not repeated until the H42 hoppers were purchased. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:09:38 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hello Folks... > > This is a bit off topic...but some of you might want to hear about > some of this. > Over the weekend i visited my step-mom and also talked to her > brother-in law who is manager of Amtrak's high speed testing. > On the way up and back i noticed this.... > > NS is installing new signals somewhere between Suffolk,Va. and > Petersburg,Va. > I saw some gondolas sitting on a siding in Disputanta (SP ?)Va. > with a bunch of the old PRR like signals in them... > My guess would be they are going to scrap. These were > the signal mast,targets and lights...also some of the signal > equipment. > > Now the Amtrak news. As some know the new Acela train is being > tested out at the Pubelo, Colo. test site. Doug (my step moms > brother in law) told me this.... > > The train will not be ready for its October debut. There are > too many bugs to work out (Hmmmm reminds me of the Original > Metroliners). They have tested the train up to 207 MPH. The crews > who will eventially run the trains will have to be very computer > literate. There are several computer interfaces onboard the train > for the Conductor and asst Conductor to use. The Conductor's > will have a laptop to access the interfaces. Engineers will be > given different level access cards (similar to a credit card) > that will give them access to the power car. Different employees > will have different cards depending on their qualifications. > Road crews will have a card that will let them operate the train > up to road speeds. Yard crews will have cards that will only > allow them speeds up to 20 MPH in yard switching. Maintanance > Crews will have a card for up to 10 MPH. > > Some of the contols for the train are.... > Automatic speed reduction to 30 MPH if any of the train doors are > opened. Conductors will have a card that will allow them to > open the doors overiding the usual door functions (not the 30 > MPH feature) The old "church key" type lock system is going to > be done away with. Acela trains have electric brakes and > also regenerative braking. There are no independant or train > brake controls in the power cars. All brake fuctions are > tied into the throttle. If a emergency application is needed > the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. The train has wheel slip > indicators. During one high speed test they had one of the > Brake fuctions inoperatable and it took 28 MILES to stop it. > Both power cars are set up to regenerate power to the overhead > line when this feature is used. But i was told that the train > is generating too much power back to the line than what is > acceptable. > One of the problems they are having with it is the old lateral > stress and motion problem. At speeds up to 130 MPH it works > fine. But at speeds over 130 up to 200 and because of the tilt > mechanism and truck design the power car trucks want to "Hunt" > I was told that they want to travel from side to side on the rails > at these speeds. > Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high > speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly > higher speed that the lead power car. This leads to the rest of > the train being bunched up between the two power cars. > There is also some trouble still with the tilt mechanism. > > Also out at the test site Doug also saw this.... > > The japanese don't have a test site for some of their trains so.... > They have a new high speed train that they are testing that > changes gauges at speed. I was'nt told how it does it, and also > the Japanese are doing the tests at night from 12 AM until about > 8 AM in the morning to help keep folks from seeing how the train > does this. The only time Amtrak personnel can see it is between > 7 and 8 AM. This train has been tested up to 100 MPH so far. > > They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was > told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car > held up well. This type of testing probably stems from the recent > Amtrak and commuter crashes. All new Amtrak cars will have to go > through this type of testing. I'd like to see what a Acela > train does at 150 MPH ! > > UP and EMD are testing the MAC90. This engine has 8000 H.P. > They tied (if i remember right) 8 engines to this loco and > set the dynamic and emergency brakes on them. Then they started > the MAC90...it moved them ! (I'd like to know how they kept the > couplers from braking) > They are now running this engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week > for a endurance test. It is remotely controled and the only > time it stops is for fuel. EMD wants to run it up to 100,000 > miles. > > 10 freight cars a week are blown up (hey thats what i was told) > so railroad and emergency personnel can learn what to do in > derailments. I would guess old cars that are ready for retirement > are used for this. > > TTX is testing a car that carries containers 2 high by 2 wide. > TTX wants to increase what present cars can carry. No word on > stability and clearances for these cars. I would guess Western > roads might be able to use a car like this in some places. > Some of BNSF's former Sante Fe lines were rebuilt a while > back with more distances between two sets of tracks. > Who knows ? > > Til Later > H.Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Now, that's a great post! Saw two streamlined trainsets in Philly the weekend of 7/10. My daughter's boyfriend said they'd been there about a week. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:15:49 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings bubbles@visi.net wrote (in part): > .. . . > Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high > speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly > higher speed that the lead power car. -- Its just like the P2K E8s. Obviously Amtrak needs to add the extra diode to the Acela's constant brightness headlight ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 11:40:02 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 1 Aug, bubbles@visi.net wrote: > [ ... ] If a emergency application is needed > the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. [ ... ] That doesn't make it easy to do a smooth stop! > They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was > told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car > held up well. [ ... ] The MBTA has had these same cars (Kawasaki, right?) for several years now, and they hold up pretty well. There were serious teething troubles, of course. One reason for them vs Chicago bilevels is that they fit wherever an F40PH does. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:12:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners Hi Guys, I just received a copy of "Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet", by Joe Welsh (as a gift). A great deal of the information contained in this publication was provided by Chris Bear, of the Hagley Museum and Library; Bill Howes, a former director of the Pullman Company; and historian Peter Tilp. Many other provided photographs, memorabilia and support, including Chuck Blardone and the PRRT&HS. The book is inundated with excellent color and black and white photos of these trains, as well as illustrations and photos of the interiors of many of the cars. Chapter One, deals with the 'Fleet of Modernism'. Consists of these trains is also included in the text. Another added attraction is the inclusion of some very clear photos of the ends of a number of cars that the modelers among us will find beneficial, I'm sure. One photo of note, depicts an L-1, double-heading with a K-4, in passenger service. I don't recall ever seeing an L-1 used in this manner, although I'm sure such anomalies occurred from time-to-time. Additional consists are also included that show, on selected dates, both power and cars that show by class and number that particular trains make-up. The next chapter concerns 'A New Postwar Blue Ribbon Fleet'. This section goes into detail and shows some of the selected consists as well as some nice interior photos of these cars, including a very nice interior shot of Pennsy's twin-unit diner. Chapter Three pertains to 'Through Cars and Trains of the Blue Ribbon Fleet'. Again, excellent descriptions and photos are included. Chapter Five, pertains to 'Home from the Road: Sunnyside - The Largest Coach Yard in the World'. This chapter contains an interesting photo of a GG1 being pulled through a wash rack by means of a shuttle. First time I had ever seen a photo of this procedure. Chapter Five: 'The Long Good-bye' deals with the end of an era. All-in-all, I think that all PRR fans (historians and modelers) will enjoy this publication, I did. The book contains 161 pages, and is approximately 8 1/2 x 11 inch format. I also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" and would be delighted to provide you with one! Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:34:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners From: "Jerry Britton" > I > also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" > and would be delighted to provide you with one! Yes, I do, and thanks for the plug! Actually, I have advance reservations for a dozen or so of these, and I have to apologize as my distributor shipped them two weeks ago into a black hole, so it seems. They finally reshipped my order last Friday. When they arrive, all backorders will be filled and additional copies will be available. Sorry for the delay for those who are waiting! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:28:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions From: "Jerry Britton" Along with all the responses to be included (thanks!), I've received numerous queries about the Cyber Chapter. Here are a few details: 1. I asked for only National Members to respond. Reason: To charter a chapter, I need to submit a list of at least 10 chapter (proposed) members that ARE national members. Once chartered, the chapter may admit non-national members, but they must maintain at least 10 national members at all times. It is up to the chapter to decide if they require their members to also be national members. We have at least 10, though many have promised to get back to me with their national membership numbers, which I will need. 2. Unlike during past discussions about creating a chapter, I am actually pursuing this through channels at this time. I am waiting on a set of by-laws which are en-route from Walt Keely. Item #1 (above) is the only requirement, but the by-laws spell out the application process and the organizational requirements of a chapter. Once all this is received, I will post it to the "charter members" via a new, private, chapter mailing list. I also wanted to address a few issues that came up about a year ago when this was last discussed. 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing list or for serving a chapter web site (http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for implementation costs. 2. "PRR-Talk" will continue as a public mailing list. It would be nice if the chapter "endorsed" it as a public medium. A private chapter list would allow discussion of chapter business only, with historical/modeling discussion continuing on "PRR-Talk". I foresee a private area (via password) on the chapter web site which would gain members access to new benefits. These may include (finally) a "universal" web index, special product discounts from various vendors, etc. How and what it would include would be determined by the charter members via the private list. Dues? Perhaps. My thought is that we should have them, say $10 a year. True, we don't have the costs other chapters incur for meeting space, etc., but it could place us in an advantageous condition to sponsor restoration work that other chapters can only do via fund drives. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. As for me, I'm taking the lead on this just to get it off the ground. Due to my role in another volunteer organization, I cannot take the role of secretary or treasurer of the new chapter. If nominated, I would be happy to serve in another position. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. I will be updating the chapter site often as things progress, so please stay tuned. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:37:34 -0400 Re: Using an L-1 as a snapper on passenger trains, I believe there was a period when this was commonly done in Emporium PA up the hill to Keating Summit, on the Harrisburg/Buffalo line. I remember a photo somewhere - Staufer's PP3 runs in my mind, but I can't swear to that. I-1's (three of them) were commonly used for freight - the climb to Keating Summit was around 2.7% as I recall! Bill Bigler -----Original Message----- From: Eichhorn@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 1:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners >Hi Guys, > >I just received a copy of "Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet", by >Joe Welsh (as a gift). A great deal of the information contained in this >publication was provided by Chris Bear, of the Hagley Museum and Library; >Bill Howes, a former director of the Pullman Company; and historian Peter >Tilp. Many other provided photographs, memorabilia and support, including >Chuck Blardone and the PRRT&HS. >The book is inundated with excellent color and black and white photos of >these trains, as well as illustrations and photos of the interiors of many of >the cars. >Chapter One, deals with the 'Fleet of Modernism'. Consists of these trains >is also included in the text. Another added attraction is the inclusion of >some very clear photos of the ends of a number of cars that the modelers >among us will find beneficial, I'm sure. One photo of note, depicts an L-1, >double-heading with a K-4, in passenger service. I don't recall ever seeing >an L-1 used in this manner, although I'm sure such anomalies occurred from >time-to-time. Additional consists are also included that show, on selected >dates, both power and cars that show by class and number that particular >trains make-up. The next chapter concerns 'A New Postwar Blue Ribbon Fleet'. >This section goes into detail and shows some of the selected consists as well >as some nice interior photos of these cars, including a very nice interior >shot of Pennsy's twin-unit diner. Chapter Three pertains to 'Through Cars and >Trains of the Blue Ribbon Fleet'. Again, excellent descriptions and photos >are included. Chapter Five, pertains to 'Home from the Road: Sunnyside - The >Largest Coach Yard in the World'. This chapter contains an interesting photo >of a GG1 being pulled through a wash rack by means of a shuttle. First time >I had ever seen a photo of this procedure. Chapter Five: 'The Long Good-bye' >deals with the end of an era. >All-in-all, I think that all PRR fans (historians and modelers) will enjoy >this publication, I did. >The book contains 161 pages, and is approximately 8 1/2 x 11 inch format. I >also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" >and would be delighted to provide you with one! > >Regards, >George > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:29:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) IIRC, The Bernice branch was always the line that split off the Panhandle north of Hartsdale and ran up to the Ft. Wayne line. Amtrak used to run over it (the train from Indy). Most is now abandoned, can anybody confirm it has been ripped up or not? Also - Indiana Harbor Canal Tower on the Ft. Wayne line is still there (atleast it was 3 years ago). In decent shape, looking at it from a distance, but NO way to get a good shot. Surrounded by a Steel Mill! Frank Garon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:02:24 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Doug and Marianne" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive? Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have? I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement. I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? I assume that these two events were related. Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. Doug N. babal@slip.net --MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: GG1 retirement questions
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that = was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired.  = ;Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive?<= BR>
Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? = with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? &nb= sp;What kind of brakes do the new cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period t= o power converted heritage and newer cars.  Did NJ Transit use any HEP = cars with their GG1's?  I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heat= ed cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. &nbs= p;Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? &nbs= p;I assume that these two events were related.  

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated.  = Any and all responses are welcome.  Thanks for the information.

Doug N.

babal@slip.net

--MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:13:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) Bob, you said <> This is a new one on me. In what period of time was the Panhandle tracks on the north side of CUS referred to as the Bernice branch? I'm probably confusing this with PRR's Bernice Cutoff, which on some maps is labelled as the South Chicago & Southern. The Bernice Cutoff was the line "east" of CUS that allowed Panhandle trains to leave from CUS' "south end", pass through Englewood, and then exit the Fort Wayne main near Colehour yard for a southerly sashay of some miles down to Bernice IL, where it entered the Panhandle main for Logansport and points beyond. Putting together the Steam Powered Video Atlas maps of Chicago with the map accompanying John Swajkart's Train Watchers Guide to Chicago (Third Edition, 1987IIRC, this north-south piece of track diverged from the west end of Colehour at "Colehour Junction, and passed through: 1. Hegewisch - joining IHB 2. Wolf Lake Junction - where IHB left and headed east to the north end of IHB's Burnham Yard. 3. Burnham Crossing - is track referred to in TWG as the Bernice cutoff, crosses CSS&SB, C&WI, NS (NKP) just east of CSS' stylish and recently replaced Hegewich Station. Note: was here 2 weeks ago, hot bottle train is still running. Tower is gone. 2. Calumet Park Crossing - Bernice cutoff used to go on south to Bernice, now ends here with connection from PRR north to IHB east across B&OCT. Heavy east-west traffic here two weeks ago. Tower down, signs relocated to large relay house. 3. Bernice - where cutoff met Panhandle main coming out of CUS northend via Western Avenue, 59th Street Yard, and Dolton. Bernice was a wye connecton not far from Lansing IL, and lay just north of I-294. Outbound Panhandle passenger jobs turned left here to follow the main to Logansport. Still leaves me wondering - was the Panhandle main from CUS northend and down Chicago's near west side ever referred to as the "Bernice Branch"? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:13:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Gize, I'm not sure I understood the comment that "South Branch Bridge wasn't a separate interlocking". My impression is that it controlled the bridge but no track junctions. Pictures in the new Pennsy streamliners book of the Broadway leaving town via this bridge remind me that the South Branch Bridge (a manned interlocking) stood just north of the monstrous 21st Street interlocking (undoubtedly NOT a Pennsy block station). 21st Street Crossing is where the Pennsy's main sailed right through the middle of multiple/multiple track crossings where the Chicago &Western Indiana curved across an IC main. To this mess was added an ATSF line that crossed the PRR on its way to join the C&WI, and a GM&O line that came from the southwest and joined the Pennsy to cross the bridge and approach Union Station. This crossing was made famous/notorious by a long-running Atlas HO track ad, plus railfan shots galore from the old days when trains from Dearborn and Union Stations passed this point. Even when I visited this spot in the early 70s, there were enough curved and straight diamonds in for 21st Street to qualify as the "National Special Trackwork Museum". And I remember South Branch cabin in PC green and still separately manned. The photos in the new book confirm that South Branch cabin, a 1-story wood structure, and 21st Street Tower, a (buff-colored, vitreous?) brick 2-story structure, stood fairly close together on the east side of the Pennsy track. What they don't show is that the Santa Fe coach yard used to be tucked into the southeast corner of 22nd Street, and beyond it was Chicago's China town. I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:49:05 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Another option would be to use one of the online used book consortiums. These sites have used book dealers from all over the English speaking world. Two of them (Bibliofind http://www.bibliofind.com & Advanced Book Exchange http://www.abebooks.com) put you in direct contact with the bookseller while a third Alibris http://www.alibris.com acts as a middle man. I have good success with all three of them. I did have one experience with Alibris where they would not sell me the book because the bookseller misrepresented the condition of the book. I have seen Apex of the Atlantics listed, but I don't recall if I have seen it recently. I hope this helps in your search. Good luck. At 1:50 PM -0500 8/1/99, doug.kisala wrote: >Hello List, > >Apex of the Atlantics can be excruciatingly difficult to find. Check train >shows; at the Timonium shows, I've seen copies from $40 to $60. Also, Ron's >Books (914 967 7541, fax 914 967 7492) buys and sells out of print railroad >books. I was exceedingly lucky and found my copy at a local hobby shop when >I was living in Maryland. The book, long out of print, was expensive, but >worth it. Westing is a fantastic writer, and he explains highly technical >concepts in layman's terms, and makes them exciting. > >Good hunting!!! > >Doug > >endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > > > I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The > > title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? > > Gene Deimling > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:15:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing In a message dated 8/2/99 4:23:50 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station >> Per Chicago Division ETT No. 3, April 29, 1951, South Branch Bridge and Alton Junction were both marked as an interlocking and an interlocking station (same milepost) 22nd St. which I think is the one-story building you refer to, is East (by railroad direction, South by geography) by about 0.2 mile and is the block station. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:57:59 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 5:13 PM To: bejm@eeg.ccf.org; Bobspf@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station ================================= Western Region ETT No 6. Apr 30 1967 shows South Branch Bridge (MP 466.2) to be all three - Block Station, Interlocking and Interlocking Station (however, it did not have a radio). Also what you refer to as the 21st Tower was actually called Alton Jct. (also at MP 466.2) was only an interlocking and interlocking station - not a block station. ETT shows C&WI and IC crossing. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:56:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION In a message dated 8/2/99 2:50:04 PM EST, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << Re: Using an L-1 as a snapper on passenger trains, I believe there was a period when this was commonly done in Emporium PA up the hill to Keating Summit, on the Harrisburg/Buffalo line. I remember a photo somewhere - Staufer's PP3 runs in my mind, but I can't swear to that. I-1's (three of them) were commonly used for freight - the climb to Keating Summit was around 2.7% as I recall! Bill Bigler >> It was my impression that the term "Snapper" on the PRR referred to the use of a Yard Engine to start a heavy train, and would therefore, always be on the rear end. A "Snapper" would be used only within the Yard Limits - with no extra pay to the crew. It's my impression that the situation described above - using an extra engine up the hill - would be called a "Helper" - regardless of its position on the train, and once the extra engine crossed the Yard Limits the crew would be entitled to extra pay. COMMENTS? Dick Ross Cleveland, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:01:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) In a message dated 8/2/99 4:24:58 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << This is a new one on me. In what period of time was the Panhandle tracks on the north side of CUS referred to as the Bernice branch? >> You are correct that the line to CUS North End is the Panhandle line. I mispoke, based upon the labeling of the track diagrams "Colehour Jct. to Union Station Chicago (via Bernice)". Bernice is where the cutoff meets the Panhandle line. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 22:09:57 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions I bet we could set up a chapter web site on one-list without incurring a necessity for dues. John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > > Along with all the responses to be included (thanks!), I've received > numerous queries about the Cyber Chapter. Here are a few details: > > > > > 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing list or for serving a chapter web site http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for implementation costs. A private chapter list would allow discussion of chapter business only, with historical/modeling discussion continuing on "PRR-Talk". I foresee a private area (via password) on the chapter web site which would gain members access to new benefits. These may include (finally) a "universal" web index, special product discounts from various vendors, etc. How and what it would include would be determined by the charter members via the private list. Dues? Perhaps. My thought is that we should have them, say $10 a year. True, we don't have the costs other chapters incur for meeting space, etc., but it could place us in an advantageous condition to sponsor restoration work that other chapters can only do via fund drives. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:47:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics In a message dated 8/2/99 6:55:46 PM Central Daylight Time, djwartel@ix.netcom.com writes: << Another option would be to use one of the online used book consortiums. These sites have used book dealers from all over the English speaking world. Two of them (Bibliofind http://www.bibliofind.com & Advanced Book Exchange http://www.abebooks.com) put you in direct contact with the bookseller while a third Alibris http://www.alibris.com acts as a middle man. >> Also try Bookfinder.com. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions Date: Tue, 3 Aug 99 06:19:45 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/2/99 10:09 PM, John F. Ryan, Jr. (RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net) wrote: >> 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing >>list or for serving a chapter web site http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If >>the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with >>them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for >>implementation costs. > >I bet we could set up a chapter web site on one-list without incurring a >necessity for dues. John: Did you miss something, or did I post in another language? I was pretty clear in saying that a chapter web site and list would not cost the chapter anything! The membership will decide if there are dues. My thought was that since there will be little or no operating costs for running the chapter, it might be nice to still have dues so we can jump on opportunities to purchase/transport PRR rolling stock, etc., to a museum site for restoration. Last year there was such a case, the online group could not raise the funds in a timely manner, and the opportunity was lost. If we had a treasury, we could jump on such an opportunity. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:26:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) In a message dated 8/2/99 5:40:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FRANKGARON@aol.com writes: << IIRC, The Bernice branch was always the line that split off the Panhandle north of Hartsdale and ran up to the Ft. Wayne line. Amtrak used to run over it (the train from Indy). Most is now abandoned, can anybody confirm it has been ripped up or not? >> John Munson and I were railfanning our way to St. Paul two weeks ago, and we saw the hot ladle car movement (2 ladles and spacers, I believe) go north on it at Burnham Crossing, which lies across the west end of South Shore's Burnham Yard. The tower is down. That train must shift over to IHB tracks north of Burnham Crossing, because the Steam Powered Video maps by Mike Walker show the north end of it up to Colehour abandoned. Going south a little on the Bernice Branch, we saw where it has been lifted south of Calumet Junction (crossing of B&OCT and IHB lines). Just south of this point, we could see where it used to cross Dolton Road. The nex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:24:01 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's Hi: I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, I apologize. Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. Also, were the whistles of the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I correct? Please help. Thanks: Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] E-6 Help Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:39:14 -0700 I would like to thank the many folks on who helped in my quest for a book on E-6 Atlantics. I have zeroed in on one. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:17:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] More Photos Needed -- Northern Central Branch From: "Jerry Britton" For my PRRT&HS book "The Pennsylvania Railroad in York County, Pennsylvania", I still need a few photos of the Northern Central branch between York (city) and the Pennsylvania/Maryland state line. This would include the towns of New Freedom, Glen Rock, Hanover Junction, Seven Valleys, Smysers, etc. If anyone has such photos, in a PRR era, showing trains, structures, locos, or unusual rolling stock, please contact me. Full credit will be given to both the photographer and whose collection it is from (if different). I will need to borrow the photo(s) for scanning purposes, but quick turnaround is promised. If you don't want it out of your sight and you are local to Northern York County (where I live), you can come to my place to visit while I perform the scanning. It takes about four minutes to process each image. This book is tentatively scheduled to be published by the society and distributed at the 2000 Convention next May. I am receiving no financial reward from this project. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Inquiry: Whereabouts of Geo. Straits Circus Train Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:13:11 -0400 Does anyone on the list know the present location of the Geo. Straits Circus train? It was originally scheduled to be somehwere around Buffalo, Rochester, or Syracuse, NY at this time. Any help would be very much appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:36:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Hi Doug and List Members, W/ respect to GG1 motor retirement on the NE corridor, Doug asked: > I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. Did > this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? I assume > that these two events were related. It apparently became uneconomical to continue operation with an oddball power line voltage and frequency (11,000 volts at 25 Hz), and so this was converted to 12,500 volts at 60Hz using the same catenary, but obviously with new equipment in terms of substations, etc. However, I believe the power conversion was gradual, and happened sections at a time over the course of years. I recall reading somewhere (this list?) that there is still one or more section(s) operating at the origional voltage somewhere on the corridor. > Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any > and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. I believe there is a GG1 web site out these in webland someplace. Anyone have the URL? Many GG1's still exist, for those wishing to visit & see them. - Claus (who got interested in the Pennsy by train-watching ex-PRR GG1's running on ex-NH trackage during the PC era!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 11:44:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's From: "Jerry Britton" > I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, > I apologize. You shall be banished to the deepest, darkest dungeons with nothing but ExLax and water! No, seriously... >Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the > correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it > was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. I am 99% comfortable in saying that it was definitely on the east slope, not Cresson, and pretty sure it was in the neighborhood of SLOPE. I'm sure the exact answer will roll in shortly. FWIW, the eastern end was at BANKS, just west of Harrisburg. > Also, were the whistles of > the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is > offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I > correct? It is worth noting that lister Don Harper is working with Soundtrax on production of some new sound systems using recordings available from the PRRT&HS, with their permission, of course. I don't know how long it'll be till these products see the light of day, but they may be worth waiting for. Don, any update? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:59:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Colehour-Bernice, current All track shown as abandonded in the Steam Power Videos atlas was pulled up a few years ago. A bicycle path is planned for it. The remaining track is used several times daily for "bottle trains" to the IHB-PRR line. There is also some freight operation to South Deering yard (CWI). A short section of new track extends to the south side of the Calumet River ("D" area) for a future barge-rail-truck facility. The short section indicated as "Wolf Lake Junction" still exists but obviously has not been used for years. Bob Leffingwell Chicago (Hegewisch) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:17:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Colehour-Bernice, current Hi Bob: Any clues as to how to get a good shot of Indiana Harbor Canal tower? I'm liable to rent a boat or helicoptor! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:08:47 -0400 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] P5a details Hello, I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. I am in need some detail information. Perhaps someone here can help. I'd like to know what the inside controls looked like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior color information would be useful as well. I've been going by photos and scale drawings and have most of the outside details understood. One area though seems to excape me. On the side of both the box cabs and the modified were what looked like air vents. On some of the box cabs these areas had horizontal lovers. On others and the modifieds these areas look like vertical screens. None of my photos give clear detail of the screens. Can anyone describe the construction of these screens. I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there are some around somewhere. In case you are wondering, I'm building these in S scale to go along with the B1 i just finished. Thanks for any help, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:48:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Jerry Britton" >> Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any >> and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. > > I believe there is a GG1 web site out these in webland someplace. > Anyone have the URL? Many GG1's still exist, for those wishing > to visit & see them. Try http://www.spikesys.com/gg1.html -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:56:18 -0400 (EDT) > I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, > I apologize. Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the > correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it > was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. Also, were the whistles of > the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is > offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I > correct? Please help. Per PRR employe[e] timetables, it was SLOPE for quite a while. Do you have a specific time period in mind? -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:57:46 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" Guys (what, no ladies?): While I'm not doubting it has been written as such, the so-called Bernice branch was usually called the SC&S (the South Chicago & Southern), a proprietary line built in the early 1880s by the Pennsylvania Company to reach the Indiana town of East Chicago, and to provide a shortcut off the Pan Handle. While I have seen Railroad Gazette stories which indicate the Pennsylvania Lines intended to divert most of the Southwest system passenger trains up the SC&S shortly after the line was built, the cramped conditions at Chicago Union Station prevented implementation of that plan. Not until a new CUS was undertaken prior to WWI was this possible to any degree; and even then, locals continued to ply the Pan Handle's "back-door" entry to CUS through the late 'twenties. The SC&S also hosted an interesting looped commuter service with trains traversing its line via Hegewisch and E. Chicago, and over the Ft. Wayne, turning (or looping) at Clarke Jct. Samuel Insull's revitalization of the South Shore Line killed off the PL service around WWI. Unfortunately, it is all mostly gone, with only about a mile left in place from the site of Calumet Park interlocking north to service industry. And I believe this brief segment is used only by the IHB. The SC&S main (and the remaining Pan Handle) was lifted about 5 years ago after Amtrak rerouted The Cardinal. Previously the train utilized the SC&S and Pan Handle as far as Maynard and the CSX (ex-Monon). With the loss of this piece of track also came destruction of Hartsdale tower, where the PL passed under Hwy 41 in Schererville. Also long gone is the original SC&S line which included the so-called "Wolf Lake branch" from Hegewisch to Hammond, and the State Line & Indiana City east to Clarke. Don't quote me, but I do believe a segment of one of the SC&S branches (called Right of Ways in the ETTs) still exists south of Whiting, operated by the IHB. This is probably a lot more than you cared to know. Sorry, but there is always the "delete" button.. Regards, R. T. Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:41:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The GG-1s and all other locomotives supply(ed) air to the coaches for = braking purposes. They still do, although the method of applying the = brakes has changed over the years since the GG-1s did not have dynamic = braking the way the newer locomotives do. They now use what is called = "blended braking" which is a combination of dynamic and air braking. = Without getting too technical, suffice it to say there are several = variations of this method and it is used on rapid transit and mu cars as = well. On the subject of the conversion from 25HZ to 60. All of the = electrically powered vehicles constructed after about 1972 or so (I = believe the New Haven MUs may have been the first) were equipped with = multiple transformer taps where they could be easily changed from = 11,000V 25Hz to 12,500 60HZ to 25,000V 60HZ. I believe they could be = changed automatically on the fly if necessary. The GG-1s and E-44s = were never retrofitted. The E-60s were built with the conversion. So = when the conversion took place in the early 1980s, the GG-1s had to go = and hence cannot even be used in excursion service without an entirely = new transformer being installed, a major undertaking. Does this help? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Doug and Marianne To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions =20 =20 With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that = was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired. = Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the = locomotive? =20 Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, = and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End = Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have? =20 I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the = transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ = Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired = all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement. =20 I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to = 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the = GG1's? I assume that these two events were related. =20 =20 Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is = appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the = information. =20 Doug N. =20 babal@slip.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: GG1 retirement questions
The GG-1s and all other locomotives = supply(ed)=20 air to the coaches for braking purposes.  They still do, although = the=20 method of applying the brakes has changed over the years since the GG-1s = did not=20 have dynamic braking the way the newer locomotives do.  They now = use what=20 is called "blended braking" which is a combination of dynamic = and air=20 braking.  Without getting too technical, suffice it to say there = are=20 several variations of this method and it is used on rapid transit and mu = cars as=20 well.
 
On the subject of the conversion from 25HZ to = 60.  All of=20 the electrically powered vehicles constructed after about 1972 or so (I = believe=20 the New Haven MUs may have been the first) were equipped with multiple=20 transformer taps where they could be easily changed from 11,000V 25Hz to = 12,500=20 60HZ to 25,000V 60HZ.   I believe they could be changed = automatically=20 on the fly if necessary.   The GG-1s and E-44s were never=20 retrofitted.  The E-60s were built with the conversion.  So = when the=20 conversion took place in the early 1980s, the GG-1s had to go and hence = cannot=20 even be used in excursion service without an entirely new transformer = being=20 installed,  a major undertaking.
 
Does this help?
 
Bill V.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Doug and Marianne <babal@slip.net>
To: = prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Monday, August 02, 1999 7:10 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 = retirement questions

With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I = believe=20 that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were = also=20 retired.  Did these cars also have air brakes with air = supplied=20 from the locomotive?

Is it correct that the replacement = cars were=20 heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from = the=20 locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)?  What kind of brakes do = the new=20 cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car = during=20 the transition period to power converted heritage and newer = cars.=20  Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's?  I = assume=20 that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the = GG1=20 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was = changed=20 from 25 to 60Hz.  Did this change happen immediately = following=20 retirement of the GG1's?  I assume that these two events = were=20 related.  

Any other information on the retirement = of the=20 GG1's is appreciated.  Any and all responses are welcome.=20  Thanks for the information.

Doug=20 = N.

babal@slip.net

------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:30:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" & Other Branch Histories From: "Jerry Britton" > While I'm not doubting it has been written as such, the so-called > Bernice branch was usually called the SC&S (the South Chicago & > Southern) If Richard, or someone, were to take the time to compile all of this Bernice Branch discussion into a branch history, I'd like to include it in the "Hobo's Guide to the PRR" on "Keystone Crossings". See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/index.html That goes for other branches as well. Check out the current guide. If your favorite branch history isn't yet written, contact me for details about becoming an editor for that branch's history. There's a lot of good content there already, why not add to it? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:13:05 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Inquiry: Whereabouts of Geo. Straits Circus Train Hello Terry Just as a future reference,,,,,it is the James E. Strates train and the Erie County Fair and Expo (which they come to town for) is being held from August 11-22. According to the Strates Shows webpage at http://www.strates.com/route.htm July 23 - Aug. 1 Essex - Middle River Fair Baltimore, Maryland Aug. 11 - Aug. 22 Erie County Fair Hamburg, New York Which basically means they should be heading this way some time real soon. They usually come up the Buffalo Line from Harrisburg to Buffalo where the train is handed off to the Buffalo Southern at BC Junction. I havent heard anything about them as of today but I can imagine that it will be here sometime in the next few days. On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, W. Terry Stuart wrote: >Does anyone on the list know the present location of the Geo. Straits Circus >train? > >It was originally scheduled to be somehwere around Buffalo, Rochester, or >Syracuse, NY at this time. > >Any help would be very much appreciated. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:20:06 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Keith, >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. Way to go! (good luck on the modified ...getting the contours right can be a bugger!). BTW, asre you going to scratchbuild the driver centers? I'm having a tough time finding appropriate drivers in HO. >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior >color information would be useful as well. I believe that the interior color was a light, "apple green" as on steam locos. Remember that the bodies of these locos are DGLE and the frames, pilots and running gear are black. >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and >have most of the outside details understood. One >area though seems to excape me. On the side of >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked >like air vents. Traction motor blower vents...I look tonight for the differences you mention >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there >are some around somewhere. One was saved. One of the only two P5 locos (the prototypes for the P5a) #4700 is in residence at the St. Louis transportation museum. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:57:19 -0400 Give me a few days and I will dig out the operator's manual for the P-5a's and I am sure there is a photo in there of the operator's controls. I will scan it and send it to you. Bare with me til I find the book though! Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: Keith B. Thompson - Sun To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 2:34 PM Subject: [PRR] P5a details > >Hello, > >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. I >am in need some detail information. Perhaps >someone here can help. > >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior >color information would be useful as well. > >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and >have most of the outside details understood. One >area though seems to excape me. On the side of >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked >like air vents. On some of the box cabs these areas >had horizontal lovers. On others and the modifieds these >areas look like vertical screens. None of my photos give >clear detail of the screens. Can anyone describe the >construction of these screens. > >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there >are some around somewhere. > >In case you are wondering, I'm building these in >S scale to go along with the B1 i just finished. > >Thanks for any help, >kbt > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:58:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's In a message dated 8/3/99 10:38:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, reynoldl@gte.net writes: << Can anyone tell me what the correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. >> My 1946 PRR blueprint of Altoona Yard shows it to be just west of 24th Street, Slope is East of 24th Street. CT 1000E shows it to be Mile Post 131.8. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:23:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR Gentlemen, Ray at Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami needs to paint an OMI pile driver for PRR. His questions were three: 1. How late did these steam-powered pile drivers stay in service, and where were they used? 2. Where can he locate pics of them, either in service or in transit. 3. What kind of tender would have been assigned to this pile driver, and would it have been black or MoW yellow? My indexing comes up a little short on this question, so I though I'd ask the experts--- anybody know where we can find the answers? Rick Tipton Rowing frantically toward the end of Lot Three's hardware auction, including 4 PRR oval builders' plates. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:59:54 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Richard Wallis Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 1:58 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" South Chicago & Southern Railroad Company Chronological Statement of the Construction Thereof - Page 747 Volume III C&C PRR 1945 Report 1887- Colehour to Bernice,IL, 9.29 miles by the SC&S RR Co (No 1) Hegewisch, IL to IL-IN State Line, 1.32 miles by SC&S RR Co (No 1) 1888- IL-IN State Line east of Hegewisch, IL to East Chicago, IN, 3.5 miles by State Line and Indiana City Railway Co. 1893- East Chicago, IL to Clarke Jct, IL, 4.51 miles by SL&IC Rwy. Co. 1895- 100th Street, Chicago to Hegewish, IL, 4.43 miles by The Calumet River Railway Co. 1903- Clarke Jct. to Pine Jct, IN, 1.32 miles by SC&S RR Co (No 2) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:21:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing In a message dated 8/3/99 10:52:34 AM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << I don't know about 22nd St; since I don't remember it, and it doesn't appear in a zillion pictures, it's hard to say. >> In the dim recesses of my mind I seem to remember a photo of a conductor stopping at a shack to pick up train orders-I have to find the photo to see if it was the 21st St. single-story or the mysterious 22nd St. shack. Map I have does have outlines of a shed just South of 22nd St. and East of the Pennsy main 1953-1960 era anyway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:40:00 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions --Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to Doug N and the list, My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the following from memory. The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this correction. If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again visit the Northeast Corridor. The stuff dreams are made of.... The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well. From what I recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class. The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the locomotive). Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet cars. This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars. I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that arrived in 1983. Hope this helps!! Doug Kisala Doug and Marianne wrote: > > > With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe > that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars > were also retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with > air supplied from the locomotive? > > Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, > lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the > locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do > the new cars have? > > I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the > transition period to power converted heritage and newer > cars. Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I > assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the > time of the GG1 retirement. > > I also understand that the catenary power was changed from > 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following > retirement of the GG1's? I assume that these two events > were related. > > Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is > appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for > the information. > > Doug N. > > babal@slip.net > > --Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to Doug N and the list,

My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the following from memory.  The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this correction.  If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again visit the Northeast Corridor.   The stuff dreams are made of....

The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well.  From what I recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class.

The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981.  One shot of ex-PRR 4935 raises some questions.  She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car.  Perhaps the GG1 electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the locomotive).

Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet cars.  This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars.

I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that arrived in 1983.

Hope this helps!!

Doug Kisala
 
 

Doug and Marianne wrote:

 
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired.  Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive?

Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)?  What kind of brakes do the new cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars.  Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's?  I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz.  Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's?  I assume that these two events were related.

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated.  Any and all responses are welcome.  Thanks for the information.

Doug N.

babal@slip.net
 

--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:24:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's As a follow-up I have a track Chart the shows the Division Post at signal bridge SB2373 right in front of "Slope," 237.46 miles from Philadelphia. The eastern end is at mile 1825 feet beyond mile marker 113 from Philly. As Jerry indicated, that places it at "Banks" Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] 130P75 Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:12:18 -0700 I noticed a hatch on the side of K-4 #612's tender. What is the purpose of this door/hatch? Do all 130P75 have this feature? Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 00:04:36 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions dougkisala wrote: > > Hello to Doug N and the list, > The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 > raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III > pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 > electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that > heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate > it from the locomotive). I believe HEP is 480V 3 phase. Since the electrification is only single phase some form of power generation or conversion would be necessary to provide Head End Power. Were generator sets or converters ever applied to GG1s?? I have not heard of any such application. If the heritage car was provided power it wouldn't matter which end it was on. Have fun, J.W.Rosenbauer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz From: Fred G Rea Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 22:15:35 EDT I have been noticing the GG1 thread and the discussion of what is in the overhead. I can see how one might carefully transition from 11KV to 12.5 KV in sections overtime. However, the change from 25Hz to 60 Hz seem hard to imagine. As a retired EE who used to make transformers many years ago, I am concerned about any attempt to run 60 Hz equipment on 25 Hz. It would "saturate" the iron. That is, it would magnetically over load the cores of transformers and rotating machines. The only way to avoid that would be to lower all voltages by a factor of 25/60 or less than one half. Was this change made or, as a recent post suggests, is the system still 25 Hz? If it was made, what are details of the steps taken to do it? While I am a life long (61 years) rail fan and lover of the PRR and particularly GG1s, I was out of the loop most of the 80's and what not aware of any of this other than the retirement of the GG1s. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Name??? Bill, List. I havn't been reading all the emails lately because I am down here in Sunny Daytona Beach watching all the female cabooses. Like a dummy I brought my webtv omputer with me. I see you are wanting to do a talk style format too. Still looking for a name? How about THE WHISTLE POST? Kinda serious I know but I figured to leave the funny ones to the rest of you guys. Now, I need some sleep so I can hit the beach again tomorrow.......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 22:52:55 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Howdy All: - just my two cents worth We seem to have many different versions of the something here. Is the Harrisburg extension still at 11 kV @ 25 Hz - As far as I can tell no transformers have been replaced, no circuit breakers have been replaced and no commercial feeds are in place at the Enola substation and its almost all gone too. PE is making all the power for this line in the Philadelphia area, since all the generator sets have been removed along with the substation equipment at Safe Harbor - more than likely Arsenal Bridge is supplying all the 25 Hz left. So my bet is the Harrisburg line is still and will remain 25 Hz. I would also support the notion that the Harrisburg line electrification is on the way out - at least past Downingtown. I can't remember the last time I saw anything other than an ugly GE or F40 with a train out this way. Also the state of PA wants to add more diesel powered train sets. I have lived next to this line in Mount Joy for about 12 years now. The last AEM7 that I remember seeing was back when the F40s where still common. The multi-tapped transformer is the norm in the AEM/ALP and E60s. As stated by Bill all electrically powered vehicles have had this since '72. The new stuff being installed to boston is setup for 25 kV @ 60 Hz. With Conrails decision to end electric operation - Amtrak (even though they forced the end) was still in bad way having to purchase its electrical power from a closed source. It stands to reason that Amtrak et all, wanted to reduce their dependency on specialized equipment and suppliers by switching to the more standard 60 Hz. The cost justification had to be based on the ability to purchase "standard" power on the open market at a substantial savings and get out of the power manufacturing business ( Long Island City) altogether. Did PE and the other suppliers have a surcharge for 25 Hz power? On the Corridor where increased horsepower requirements have necessitated the conversion to 60 Hz to supply the need. Since there is a direct connection between power and cycles/minute (Hertz or Hz), it would also be reasonable to propose an increase in efficiency (increased efficiency = more horsepower/ kwh) helped the decision also. So this all brings us back to the question of why was the GG1 retired. My vote goes to the tired frames and just plan worn out. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest respect for the GG1, the men who built, ran and maintained them. They where/are the greatest examples of mainline electric engines ever (IMHO). I have tried to think of other main line high speed locomotives that have had such a career, and can think of none - steam, diesel or other (high speed continuos service - not resurrected or switching - yes there are early GPs out there but how many have been doing 60 mph for 40+ years - straight SD40s are just now going over the 30 year mark - how many of them are still out there). It would be nice to see a GG1 run again with a new transformer (the remedial cost at their scrapping most have been in the several thousand a piece). I can't blame it all on the conversion to 60 Hz, but I bet it helped. I'll take my PRR electrification in the late 50's to early 60's, where double and triple headed G's worked up the river and still did 70 to 90 something through Mount Joy. Cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:59:16 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:22 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing 22nd Street (MP 466.0) appears as an entry in the 1967 ETT Western Region Main Line Pittsburgh to Chicago station pages, between 40th St interlocking, and interlocking station (MP463.8) and Alton Jct interlocking and interlocking station (MP 466.2) From this I would surmise that at one time it had some sort of status or was a location point for some reason. I though Bob Z's previous post from Chi Div ETT c. 1951 listed it as a block station? Al =================================== In a message dated 8/3/99 10:52:34 AM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << I don't know about 22nd St; since I don't remember it, and it doesn't appear in a zillion pictures, it's hard to say. >> In the dim recesses of my mind I seem to remember a photo of a conductor stopping at a shack to pick up train orders-I have to find the photo to see if it was the 21st St. single-story or the mysterious 22nd St. shack. Map I have does have outlines of a shed just South of 22nd St. and East of the Pennsy main 1953-1960 era anyway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 21:34:30 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Thank you for the information, Bruce...I would likd to add another question: What is the function of the flat-sided but tapered tanks under the carbodies, along the sides, at one or more ends (not the round air reservoirs, if that is what THEY are)? My guess is boiler fuel tanks, but I have always wondered. Keith, Trains Mag for September, 1975, ran a good article on the P-5a. Sadly, there are no pix of the cab interior, but the article does say the cabs on the boxcabs were open into the carbody. I will be happy to send you a copy if you like. Steve Bartlett Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > > Keith, > > >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can > >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. > > Way to go! (good luck on the modified ...getting the contours right can > be a bugger!). BTW, asre you going to scratchbuild the driver centers? > I'm having a tough time finding appropriate drivers in HO. > > >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked > >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior > >color information would be useful as well. > > I believe that the interior color was a light, "apple green" as on steam > locos. Remember that the bodies of these locos are DGLE and the frames, > pilots and running gear are black. > > >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and > >have most of the outside details understood. One > >area though seems to excape me. On the side of > >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked > >like air vents. > > Traction motor blower vents...I look tonight for the differences you mention > > >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there > >are some around somewhere. > > One was saved. One of the only two P5 locos (the prototypes for the P5a) > #4700 is in residence at the St. Louis transportation museum. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:37:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Are you sure the gen sets and substation have been removed from Safe Harbor ? The reason I say this is that Amtrak still owns the cat poles and high tension lines along the A&S and the lines are still energized. All the groups that want to turn the row into a rail-trail have run up against this problem of the live transmission lines. It's my belief that the western end of the electrification ( Parkesburg to Harris ) is fed from Safe Harbor. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 Passenger Snappers (was :Book:Pennsy Streamliners) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:00:52 -0500 L1's as helpers on passenger trains on Horseshoe Curve have appeared in at least a couple of videos. The Keystone of September 1980 has a good article on the L1. There are two photos of L1's with passenger bar style pilots, 139 on the cover and 6306. The caption indicates that "During the 1940's some L1s got passenger pilots for use on mail and express and troop trains." Both photos show the engines equipped with 90F75 tenders. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 00:22:12 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Doug and Marianne" These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move of some sort. The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among others) was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe that NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and storage batteries on each car. The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the era of the steam locomotive. I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 years to produce something better. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:49:21 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BEDE4D.DCC37E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am pretty sure the northeast corridor is all 60 HZ. I know that when = the NJT converted from DC to AC they went to 60HZ so it would make sense = for the rest of the deal to go at the same time. Originally the founding fathers wanted everything to be 50,000 VAC 60HZ = like they do in Europe but the close clearances in Penn Station NY = prevented that so they decided on 25,000 for the "Eastern US" standard = and 50KV for the "Western US Standard" as in Black Mesa and Lake Powell, = Deserette Western, B.C. Rail etc. 25KV was still too much for good ole Penn Station so 12.5 was adopted. = I think from New HAven to Boston they plan on 25KV. 60 HZ. Anyone else care to chime in? -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: Doug and Marianne ; prr-talk@dsop.com = Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions =20 =20 Hello to Doug N and the list,=20 My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the = following from memory. The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, = 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this = correction. If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated = biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again = visit the Northeast Corridor. The stuff dreams are made of....=20 The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on = the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well. From what I = recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, = and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class.=20 The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 = raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III = pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 = electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage = car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the = locomotive).=20 Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet = cars. This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the = GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars.=20 I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated = cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern = incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service = until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and = F40PHs that arrived in 1983.=20 Hope this helps!!=20 Doug Kisala=20 =20 =20 Doug and Marianne wrote:=20 =20 With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe = that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also = retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the = locomotive?=20 Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, = lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive = (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have?=20 I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the = transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ = Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired = all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.=20 I also understand that the catenary power was changed from = 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of = the GG1's? I assume that these two events were related.=20 Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is = appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the = information.=20 Doug N.=20 babal@slip.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BEDE4D.DCC37E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am pretty sure the northeast = corridor is all=20 60 HZ.  I know that when the NJT converted from DC to AC they went = to 60HZ=20 so it would make sense for the rest of the deal to go at the same=20 time.
 
Originally the founding fathers wanted everything to = be 50,000=20 VAC 60HZ like they do in Europe but the close clearances in Penn Station = NY=20 prevented that so they decided on 25,000 for the "Eastern US" = standard=20 and 50KV for the "Western US Standard" as in Black Mesa and = Lake=20 Powell, Deserette Western, B.C. Rail etc.
 
25KV was still too much for good ole Penn Station so = 12.5 was=20 adopted.  I think from New HAven to Boston they plan on 25KV. 60=20 HZ.
 
Anyone else care to chime in?
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>=
To:=20 Doug and Marianne <babal@slip.net>; prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Tuesday, August 03, 1999 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Re: GG1=20 retirement questions

Hello to Doug N and the = list,=20

My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up = the=20 following from memory.  The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to = this day,=20 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had = this=20 correction.  If one could find a substitute for PCB = (Polychlorinated=20 biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could = again=20 visit the Northeast Corridor.   The stuff dreams are made = of....=20

The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature = on the=20 GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well.  From what I = recall,=20 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and = one of=20 her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class.=20

The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981.  One shot of = ex-PRR 4935=20 raises some questions.  She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power = III=20 pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car.  Perhaps the GG1=20 electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that = heritage car=20 at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the=20 locomotive).=20

Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several = Amfleet=20 cars.  This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is = that the=20 GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars.=20

I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam = heated cars=20 that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern = incarnation of my=20 beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until replaced = with=20 the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that = arrived in=20 1983.=20

Hope this helps!!=20

Doug Kisala
 
 =20

Doug and Marianne wrote:=20

 =20
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I=20 believe that was the year), the last steam heated passenger = cars=20 were also retired.  Did these cars also have air brakes = with=20 air supplied from the locomotive?=20

Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, = lighted, and=20 braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive = (Head End=20 Power - HEP)?  What kind of brakes do the new cars = have?=20

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the=20 transition period to power converted heritage and newer = cars. =20 Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's?  I = assume=20 that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of = the GG1=20 retirement.=20

I also understand that the catenary power was changed = from 25 to=20 60Hz.  Did this change happen immediately following = retirement=20 of the GG1's?  I assume that these two events were = related.=20

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is=20 appreciated.  Any and all responses are welcome.  = Thanks=20 for the information.=20

Doug N.=20

babal@slip.net =

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BEDE4D.DCC37E40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: re P5a controls photo Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:58:10 -0400 I have found the operator's manual and while it is OVER an inch thick (it includes the GG-1 too), it contains no photo of the cab interior. However, there are a couple of nice captioned detail photos of the roofs which I will scan and put up on the web. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Robert A. Boyd To: herzog1@gate.net Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 2:41 AM Subject: re P5a controls photo >Say Bill, > >When you do find that tech manual, if you could send me a copy of the cab >photo I will include it in the PRR electrification topic, which I hope to >do some updating on. > >Thank You, > >Bob > >Robert A. Boyd > >======== >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > >"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service >http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > >history - technology - modeling - sources >Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! >======== > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 08:09:05 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Don't forget that Pennsy had the wonderful Keystone train, with its HEP car - built way back in 1956! I had the privilege to ride this train with my father in 1967 to New York. I remember sitting in the belly of the car and all the smoke! Cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 07:39:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter - Name of Chapter? From: "Jerry Britton" The following query is ONLY for those individuals who have expressed their interest in chartering a "cyber" chapter of the PRRT&HS. These folks MUST be members in good standing of the national organization. A list of these folks is now on the "cyber" chapter site at http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com. Please, ONLY individuals on the charter member list should respond, and please respond direct...I will summarize. What name do we want to give to the "cyber" chapter? "Cyber" is acceptable to me, and seems appropriate, but do we want to consider anything else? (One member suggested that a club PRR layout could include the fictional town of Cyber!) What I am getting at is that if we can nail down the name via this list, I will create a chapter talk list where chapter business can be addressed in its own forum. However, due to what's involved in the initial setup of a list, I'd just as soon get the name right to begin with! My apologies to the balance of the list subscribers for this minor interruption. To reiterate, once the chapter is chartered by the PRRT&HS, membership to the chapter may include non-national members, at the discretion of the chapter. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:53:25 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR Rick asked: >Ray at Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami needs to paint an OMI pile driver for >PRR. His questions were three: >1. How late did these steam-powered pile drivers stay in service, and where >were they used? Hmmmm, I'd be hard pressed to say that the Overland model was "steam powered" - maybe we're talking aboput different models...anyhoo, the one I'm thinking of entered service AFTER WWII, and I think actually the '50s. I think they were used all over the system, and survived into the merger and may still be around. >2. Where can he locate pics of them, either in service or in transit. >3. What kind of tender would have been assigned to this pile driver, and >would it have been black or MoW yellow? There is a photo in the "Color Guide...", vol 1, showing pile driver #498200 in the transit position, painted black, with yellow grabs, white lettering, no tender (Heck, I think the thing is deisel powered), and a highly modified FGRA idler flat #488873, painted yellow with black lettering. I forgot to write down date and location, but I believe it was the '60s. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 4 Aug 99 07:47:05 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Fred you must have spent more time as a train fan then a transformer design engineer. When I designed transformers, the frequency determined the amount of iron in the core. The lower the frequency the more iron. Any transformer designed for 25 cycles will work fine at 60 cycles. You are thinking backwards. But then again that comes with advanced age. P.S. I am old enough to remember going to see Streamlined k4 3768 on a second grade field trip. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Fred G Rea scribit: > avoid that would be to lower all voltages by a factor of 25/60 or less > than one half. Was this change made or, as a recent post suggests, is > the system still 25 Hz? Fred et al., the trend seems to be to go to 60 Hz at 25 kV, at least to get there _eventually_. There have been so many changes recently that I've lost track of them all, but many sections seem to have gone from 11 kV to 12.5 kV. Note that this is suspiciously 1/2 of the 25 kV I mentioned above -- perhaps a center tap on a transformer that will ultimately, and eventually, be switched to the end tap and put out 25 kV??? ;-) As to 60 Hz changes, that has occurred as well -- *IIRC*, the New Haven trackage. Anyway, at this point, I'll defer to the more knowledgeable. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:02:51 -0400 One of Amtrak's greatest blunders was their purchasing the first fleet of SDP-40f s with steam generators (in 1972) knowing that they would be obsolete in a few years and overlooking the fact that enough steam generator cars existed around the country to temporarily heat the remaining steam heated cars. The Keystone tubular train did have a Hercules power car for the tubular equipment but the PRR early on had to install steam trainlines under them so that the Silver Meteor et al could be tacked on behind them. -----Original Message----- From: Doug and Marianne To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:32 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions >These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite >the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling >Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move of >some sort. > >The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among others) >was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I >assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. > >I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new >equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by >GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. > >It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe that >NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. > >I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body >frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was >changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the >other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage >cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the >reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight >reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and >storage batteries on each car. > >The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the era >of the steam locomotive. > >I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had >tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was >there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 >years to produce something better. > > >Doug Nelson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 07:56:32 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Safe Harbor went through a major rebuild about 3 or 4 years ago. All the 25 Hz gen. sets were removed and all the turbines upgraded too. The 132 kv single phase transmission system is still in place as a redundant feed system for the NEC and Harrisburg line. It also supplied signal line voltage for the C&PD, A&S, and Lancaster Branch. Conrail appears to have begun a replacement of sorts, witness the new signals at Cola, and the stand alone masts further down river at Port and other places along the river instead of the catenary supported signals. Most of these signals have been replaced or upgraded within the last 5 years or so. Most were upgraded with new position light installations, even Cola was originally replaced with position lights, only when Conrail did it's clearance project did it remove the signal bridge at Cola and replace with the tri-colors. Just my observations Cos KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > Are you sure the gen sets and substation have been removed from Safe Harbor ? > The reason I say this is that Amtrak still owns the cat poles and high > tension lines along the A&S and the lines are still energized. All the groups > that want to turn the row into a rail-trail have run up against this problem > of the live transmission lines. It's my belief that the western end of the > electrification ( Parkesburg to Harris ) is fed from Safe Harbor. > Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:11:38 -0400 (EDT) KEMACPRR@aol.com scribit: > > Are you sure the gen sets and substation have been removed from Safe Harbor ? > The reason I say this is that Amtrak still owns the cat poles and high > tension lines along the A&S and the lines are still energized. All the groups > that want to turn the row into a rail-trail have run up against this problem > of the live transmission lines. It's my belief that the western end of the > electrification ( Parkesburg to Harris ) is fed from Safe Harbor. > Ken McCorry Judging from the configuration of catenary poles, the numbers of high-V wires, etc., it appears that the Harrisburg main was fed from 2 ends, via Harrisburg (via the CVRR bridge) and via Parkesburg. West of Lancaster the 4 high-tension lines decrease to only 2, all the way to Middletown, IIRC. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:07:26 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Hi All, More on P-5 details, Kieth asked: >One area though seems to excape me. On the side of >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked >like air vents. On some of the box cabs these areas >had horizontal lovers. On others and the modifieds these >areas look like vertical screens. None of my photos give >clear detail of the screens. Can anyone describe the >construction of these screens. I spent some time looking last night and here is what I found. The P-5 and P-5a boxcabs were built with horizontal "shutters" on the traction motor blower vents. These were hinged at the top and were blown open as the blowers revved up. This gives a "Jalousie window" effect. The modifieds were built with "screens" which had vertical elements which appear to be fixed stiffeners or ribs. Now here's the tricky part...it appears that over the years, the boxcabs had their shutters replaced with screens, but rather than simply modify an entire loco, they were replaced a little more haphazardly than that. Many photos appear to show locos in the 50's and 60's with both shutters and screens (being careful not to mistake closed shutters for screens). The most common arrangement seems to show shutters on one or two vents nearest the end of the carbody, with screens on the center vents. By the end of service, most boxcabs appear to have only screens, and this appears to be the arrangement on #4700 as "preserved". Hmmmm, maybe Eddy at Rail Classics should try to figure out how to provide this feature (interchangable vent grills) on the HO P-5 models that they say are in the works !!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 14:20:30 -0400 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] paint suggestions needed Hello, Can anyone out there tell me what color "Front End Paint" is? This is my first shot at painting a steamer (a LIRR H10), and have not found many useful color photos. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Elliot Fishbein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] P5 details Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:39:25 -0400 Hello again P-5 afficianados: I found my P-5/GG-1 operator's manual and it shows photos of the motors, quill drive, preventive coils, controller with cover removed, the whole 9 yards, but no interior view showing the relationship of the controller to the light switches and the brake stand. As I remember it, the cab was very plain with the pantograph up and down switches mounted on the window post, the cab signal box on the left side of the windshield, the controller and reverser just under the window and the brake valve to the left of the controller. Headlight dimmer was just under the pantograph buttons. That was about it. I did scan five images showing a comparison of the roof on the P-5 box cab: http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr085.jpg the roof on the P-5a modified http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr086.jpg the roof of a GG-1: http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr087.jpg a digram showing the placement of all of the inerds on all three at: http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr089.jpg and last but not least a key to reading the above diagram (which I guess you really should print out): http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr088.jpg By the way, the two large tanks on the number two end of the P-5s were for water and fuel oil for the boiler. I don't know which was which because the boilers had long since been removed by the time I came on the P-5 scene. ..Bill Volkmer Long since removed from the Pennsy and the P-5a's. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:38:25 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Correction: Re: Bernice Br Apologies to the group. Several errors were included in my posting dated 8/3 regarding the Bernice branch which, being ever cognizent of the reach and influence of this forum, I really should correct. First, the SC&S was originally chartered in 1881, but was not built until 1887. The Pennsylvania Company provided the wherewithal after acquiring the dormant company in 1886. (Church, 2:549) Second, as I am often wont to do, I confused Maynard (where the GTW crosses the Pan Handle) with Airline (the former Monon crossing). Thus, my post should have indicated that the Cardinal previously used the SC&S as far east as Airline. I am properly humbled. And my lesson should be: never fire off a response from the top of one's head: check your facts first. Regards, Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:41:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] paint suggestions needed From: "Jerry Britton" > Can anyone out there tell me what color "Front End Paint" is? This is my > first shot at painting a steamer (a LIRR H10), and have not found many > useful color photos. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Are you referring to the Smoke Box and Ash Pan areas of the loco? Though the latter gets "grimy" rapidly, they are a silvery grey color. Check the "PRR-Talk" archives... -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! we discussed this about a year ago. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:33:57 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] paint suggestions needed Hi Elliot: I've painted a lot of brass imports for my model railroad, but I'm not real sure what is prototypically correct. My guess is that there may have been variations, depending on era, etc. Pennsylvania Glory II shows the last days of some Long Island steam having a silver appearance on the smokebox. Many of the brass importers use a bright silver, (too bright for my taste). I'm not sure if the Pennsy or LIRR came close to this, but I have seen films of mikes and decs that look like they could have been bright at one time also. I can tell you what I believe looks good though. Try Scalecoat grime and finish the model with a mixture of 50% Scalecoat gloss and 50% Scalecoat flat. I think you'll like it. It also serves well on the running gear of electrics. Regards, Larry Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk wrote: > Hello, > Can anyone out there tell me what color "Front End Paint" is? This is my > first shot at painting a steamer (a LIRR H10), and have not found many > useful color photos. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. > > Elliot Fishbein > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 Passenger Snappers (was :Book:Pennsy Streamliners) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:54:30 -0500 Amending my own message: >L1's as helpers on passenger trains on Horseshoe Curve have appeared in at >least a couple of videos. The Keystone of September 1980 has a good article >on the L1. There are two photos of L1's with passenger bar style pilots, >139 on the cover and 6306. The caption indicates that "During the 1940's >some L1s got passenger pilots for use on mail and express and troop trains." >Both photos show the engines equipped with 90F75 tenders. > There is also a photo of L1 3586 as the helper ahead of an EP-20 "west of the Horseshoe Curve on Sept. 2, 1951." Also of note is the EP-20 (E7): it still retains the side window configuration as built (the way P2K modeled it). Most photos from the 50's show the single window with vents modification. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:53:38 EDT Peter etal: While I did design and transformers and power supplies for only a short time in the 1960's, I did not forget the relationship between frequency and the size of the cores. No, my concern was that any new 60 Hz equipment could not be used until all the overhead was at 60 Hz. My best lesson on all this is now on my layout. A 120v 400Hz variac that works fine as a throttle when I feed it with 12v AC at 60 Hz but would probably blow a fuse at 120v 60 Hz. The 400 Hz came, as you might guess, from an aircraft application. 400 Hz in aircraft because you can build equipment with much less iron in the cores. An important issue when synchros etc were popular. In the 60's a variac was the Cadillac of throttles. Getting a surplus one for free was fantastic, even if it was for 400 hz.. Going the other way, puzzles me, I am not sure what 60 HZ would do to transformers and rotating machinery. It sure would speed up synchronous motors however. Any idea what it would due to an entire GG1? At any rate, evolution from 25 Hz to 60 hz would be interesting. Apparently they did it. One guess is they had transitionslocos designed for either. Efficient use of materials would be complicated by dual frequency requirement. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:54:41 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Gentlemen, > > Ray at Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami needs to paint an OMI pile driver for > PRR. His questions were three: > 1. How late did these steam-powered pile drivers stay in service, and where > were they used? > 2. Where can he locate pics of them, either in service or in transit. > 3. What kind of tender would have been assigned to this pile driver, and > would it have been black or MoW yellow? > > My indexing comes up a little short on this question, so I though I'd ask the > experts--- anybody know where we can find the answers? > > Rick Tipton > Rowing frantically toward the end of Lot Three's hardware auction, including > 4 PRR oval builders' plates. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Rick, There are two photos of pile drivers in Gladulich's "By Rails to the Seashore" about the Pennsylvania- Reading Seashore line. There is a back lit b/w shot of an older (early 1900's) pile driver, 4-wheel caboose and an 0-4-0, and a second of a later larger unit in storage. The newer unit looked gray in the photo I can not remember if it was a b/w or color. The book is at home. Is there a picture of that OMI pile driver someplace? Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 17:21:05 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Greetings to Bill and the List, I agree that the SDP40F was a big blunder from a tracking standpoint. I recall reading, however, that their two steam generators were on pallets that could be removed and replaced with HEP pallets (ie diesel engine and generator) as the time came. I realize that it is difficult to imagine government planning ahead; this aspect of the engine was good, but it was the tracking difficulties, real and perceived, that doomed them. I remember reading this in Railfan and Railroad; the exact date escapes me, but I believe it was a two-part series in the early 90s. In a sense, it was good that they ended up being unsuitable for Amtrak (and the nation's deteriorated track structure of the 1970s); if they'd been successful, kids like myself would never have seen E-units in revenue service for Amtrak and NJT. Doug Kisala Bill Volkmer wrote: > One of Amtrak's greatest blunders was their purchasing the first fleet of > SDP-40f s with steam generators (in 1972) knowing that they would be > obsolete in a few years and overlooking the fact that enough steam generator > cars existed around the country to temporarily heat the remaining steam > heated cars. > > The Keystone tubular train did have a Hercules power car for the tubular > equipment but the PRR early on had to install steam trainlines under them so > that the Silver Meteor et al could be tacked on behind them. > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug and Marianne > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:32 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions > > >These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite > >the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling > >Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move > of > >some sort. > > > >The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among > others) > >was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I > >assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. > > > >I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new > >equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by > >GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. > > > >It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe > that > >NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. > > > >I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body > >frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was > >changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the > >other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage > >cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the > >reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight > >reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and > >storage batteries on each car. > > > >The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the > era > >of the steam locomotive. > > > >I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had > >tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was > >there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 > >years to produce something better. > > > > > >Doug Nelson > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:59:36 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 Question: Is the Bowser kit really a N5? The platform ends and collision bars look to me like the WW 2 era upgrades (and N5A/B). Has anyone converted the Bowser kit to an as-built N5? Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Portage RR From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 17:44:42 EDT While a bit off topic, let me recommend the relatively new display at the site of the old Portage RR. Those driving to the convention from the West will pass right by it. It is just off US 22 at the summit. Plenty of signs. I have been seeing sketches of canal boat on railroad trucks since grade school. This Museum gave me a much better perspective. They have a Museum building with a full scale loco, maps and a slide show. Nearby are a stretch of limestone and strap iron track. The short restored track is on the original right-of-way and you get a clear idea of how spectacular that operation must have been. The also have built a restoration of the building and machinery that pulled the cars up the inclined planes. A great stop for kids too! Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 17:39:48 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] 130P75 Hello Gene and the list, When I was at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania in 1994, I noticed a similar box on the 250F75 attached to M1b 6755. I asked the museum staff, and they said the box was for trainphone equipment, related, if I remember correctly, to the transmitter. I'll go out on a limb and guess that the box wasn't worth removing as the K4s fleet lost their trainphone antennas in the second half of the 50s. As another example of effort not expended on tenders, when class 130P75 tenders were taken from retired K4s engines and tacked on to I1sa engines, their class became known as second 130F82a, but the change to raise the firing deck from 75" to 82" was a simple false deck over the orginal, costing some water capacity. But with steam on the way out, it wasn't worth the extra effort (at least not to Pennsy's bean counters). I've never seen a shot of a K4s with trainphone on the New York and Long Branch Railroad (though, inevitably, someone will prove me wrong, and I'll have another K4s to model, which is not really such a bad thing). Doug endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > I noticed a hatch on the side of K-4 #612's tender. What is the purpose of > this door/hatch? > Do all 130P75 have this feature? > Gene Deimling > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:12:52 -0400 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/03/99 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:20:06 -0500 > > Keith, > > >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can > >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. > > Way to go! (good luck on the modified ...getting the contours right can > be a bugger!). BTW, asre you going to scratchbuild the driver centers? > I'm having a tough time finding appropriate drivers in HO. I've done some model ship building and i'll be using some techniques used to shape (far more complicated) ship hulls. I'll let you know how it comes out! :) As for the drivers, i've imported some S scale European Steam engine drivers from a guy in england which should work. I used 62" drivers on the B1 and they look great. As for the quill drive on the P5 i expect to cast some detail parts to add to the drivers. I'm waiting for the 72" drivers now, if that doesn't work i'll make the drivers from scratch. Will see. (Since the side frames hide so much of the driver i only need to be close... as the rivet counters start foaming at the mouth :o ) > >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked > >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior > >color information would be useful as well. > > I believe that the interior color was a light, "apple green" as on steam > locos. Remember that the bodies of these locos are DGLE and the frames, > pilots and running gear are black. I would have expected grey with red floor like the B1 but green could be good. I'll just need 1 color photo with the door open! > >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and > >have most of the outside details understood. One > >area though seems to excape me. On the side of > >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked > >like air vents. > > Traction motor blower vents...I look tonight for the differences you mention Yea, if i was just doing the box cab i'd be ok with the lovers. But the modifieds seem to all have this screen structure. > > >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there > >are some around somewhere. > > One was saved. One of the only two P5 locos (the prototypes for the P5a) > #4700 is in residence at the St. Louis transportation museum. Humm, a bit far for me. And when i got there i bet it would only have lovers! :( ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Thu, 5 Aug 99 06:28:43 -0400 From: Jerry We just learned that Al Buchan is cancelling his talk on the MoW in the "PRR-Track" at the museum. Our program will be updated accordly. http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Al cites the fact that he was glad to do it as an alternative to the Lewistown trip. But now that the trip has been cancelled, the PRRT&HS was left scrambling for a program. Walt Keely and I discussed using our agenda as the official program, but it required moving our program to the hotel. The organizers of the "PRR-Talk" track, while not against the concept, do not feel it appropriate to do so after the museum had very willingly bent over backwards to provide us with space, a/v equipment, and the like. They have been an ally before and we do not wish to tarnish that relationship. So, Walt Keely did arrange for one session at the hotel Friday afternoon. He only has space until 3 p.m., as the room is a restaurant. The PRRT&HS sessions features a general overview by the Cincinatti Modelers Group, from 1-2, I beleive (a new schedule is being mailed from the PRRT&HS to registrants). Al Buchan now feels that he is involved in a "competitive" situation. Perhaps so, but it was certainly unintentional. I suppose it is his right to do so, but to do so for a much publicized event is, in my opinion, very unprofessional. In Al's own words: "I normally do not welsh on my commitments. However, I believe this is an extra ordinary circumstance." We still have two very strong events at the museum. We will either tighten up the schedule, or add another. Also, we need some volunteers: to hand out flyers about the program in the registration area (Friday morning until 11:30 or so), to assist at the museum during sessions (answering questions/assisting attendees while Brad and I emcee), and perhaps at other times. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:38:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR The photos of steam derricks with tenders that I've seen, have the tender painted yellow or grey depending on the era. I would assume that the same would hold true for pile drivers. Of course as many of us have learned, nothing is absolute when talking about the PRR. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Amtrak SDP-40s Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:17:23 -0400 A bunch of those units were sold to the Santa Fe after Amtrak was done with them and they served out their years without steam generators. I believe Amtrak did convert a few of them to HEP units towards the end. or possibly the last few were delivered with them. I don't exactly remember. -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: Bill Volkmer ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions >Greetings to Bill and the List, > >I agree that the SDP40F was a big blunder from a tracking standpoint. I recall >reading, however, that their two steam generators were on pallets that could be >removed and replaced with HEP pallets (ie diesel engine and generator) as the >time came. I realize that it is difficult to imagine government planning ahead; >this aspect of the engine was good, but it was the tracking difficulties, real >and perceived, that doomed them. I remember reading this in Railfan and >Railroad; the exact date escapes me, but I believe it was a two-part series in >the early 90s. In a sense, it was good that they ended up being unsuitable for >Amtrak (and the nation's deteriorated track structure of the 1970s); if they'd >been successful, kids like myself would never have seen E-units in revenue >service for Amtrak and NJT. > >Doug Kisala > >Bill Volkmer wrote: > >> One of Amtrak's greatest blunders was their purchasing the first fleet of >> SDP-40f s with steam generators (in 1972) knowing that they would be >> obsolete in a few years and overlooking the fact that enough steam generator >> cars existed around the country to temporarily heat the remaining steam >> heated cars. >> >> The Keystone tubular train did have a Hercules power car for the tubular >> equipment but the PRR early on had to install steam trainlines under them so >> that the Silver Meteor et al could be tacked on behind them. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Doug and Marianne >> To: prr-talk@dsop.com >> Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions >> >> >These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite >> >the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling >> >Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move >> of >> >some sort. >> > >> >The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among >> others) >> >was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I >> >assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. >> > >> >I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new >> >equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by >> >GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. >> > >> >It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe >> that >> >NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. >> > >> >I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body >> >frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was >> >changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the >> >other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage >> >cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the >> >reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight >> >reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and >> >storage batteries on each car. >> > >> >The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the >> era >> >of the steam locomotive. >> > >> >I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had >> >tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was >> >there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 >> >years to produce something better. >> > >> > >> >Doug Nelson >> > >> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:56:24 -0400 Perhaps you are all confused as to why the change from 25HZ to 60 Hz in the first place. The reason is that the Pennsy built their own power plants to supply their own power to themselves in the early 1900s and designed the system to be to THEIR best advantage. Since they were "married" into 25 HZ, the extensions in the 30s had to be 25HZ (for better or for worse). Then at some point in time, (probably post World War II) the PRR sold the whole works to Pennelec and I guess Con Ed, who had to continue to sell power to the railroad from the Conewingo plant etc. By converting to 60HZ, the electric companies could furnish power to the railroad from whatever source they choose. As I said in a previous post, it was the Lackawanna re-electrificiation in the late 70s that gave the final push to make the plunge and the GG-1s were past due for replacement anyhoo. Oh by the way. The real achilies heel, if you will, on the GG-1s were their main frames that were severely prone to cracking around the stress-relief holes (that made them look like Swiss Cheese). The freight Gs (i.e. the older ones) were worse in this aspect than the newer ones (as I remember it). Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Fred G Rea To: tvpete@usa.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz >Peter etal: > >While I did design and transformers and power supplies for only a short >time in the 1960's, I did not forget the relationship between frequency >and the size of the cores. > >No, my concern was that any new 60 Hz equipment could not be used until >all the overhead was at 60 Hz. My best lesson on all this is now on my >layout. A 120v 400Hz variac that works fine as a throttle when I feed >it with 12v AC at 60 Hz but would probably blow a fuse at 120v 60 Hz. >The 400 Hz came, as you might guess, from an aircraft application. 400 >Hz in aircraft because you can build equipment with much less iron in the >cores. An important issue when synchros etc were popular. In the 60's a >variac was the Cadillac of throttles. Getting a surplus one for free was >fantastic, even if it was for 400 hz.. > >Going the other way, puzzles me, I am not sure what 60 HZ would do to >transformers and rotating machinery. It sure would speed up synchronous >motors however. Any idea what it would due to an entire GG1? > >At any rate, evolution from 25 Hz to 60 hz would be interesting. >Apparently they did it. One guess is they had transitionslocos designed >for either. Efficient use of materials would be complicated by dual >frequency requirement. > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:58:31 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] more! P5a details Steve Asked: >Thank you for the information, Bruce...I would likd to add another >question: What is the function of the flat-sided but tapered tanks >under the carbodies, along the sides, at one or more ends (not the round >air reservoirs, if that is what THEY are)? My guess is boiler fuel >tanks, but I have always wondered. And Bill V. added (paraphrased as I've lost his post) that one was fuel and one water. I did some additional looking last night and found, as Bill V. noted, that the boiler was on the "B" end (back? boiler?) of the P-5a boxcab, and a little "F" was stenciled on the other end so even though these were double ended, there is a front and back . Looking at the locomotive's left side, the boiler would be at the back and the filler on the rear left side is labeled "Fuel Oil" with the lettering split by the filler recess. This would indicate that the left tank is for Fuel oil and the right for water, and should be labeled so. Interestingly, the sand fillers also appear to be labeled in the builders photos in Pennsy Power and in shots from the 30's with "sand ????" I cannot make out the second word to tell if it is "fill" or "only" or something else. Just to make life interesting, the O-1 locos were labeled with the "F" at the boiler end, and in the builders photo of the the O-1c, the tank is labeled "Fuel Tank". It is in the same location as the P-5a, but because of the switch in labeling the "front" of the loco, it is on the "right" not left side . Confused yet? Another interesting detail, that I must chase down is the presence of P-5a like tanks on my Alco models O-1c, but these tanks are cylindrical, like the air tanks at the opposite end, in the builders photo. I wonder if they were modified at a later date? BTW, the air tank is also stenciled "Air Tank"! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:01:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update From: "Jerry Britton" Earlier I reported: > Al Buchan now feels that he is involved in a "competitive" situation. > Perhaps so, but it was certainly unintentional. I suppose it is his right > to do so, but to do so for a much publicized event is, in my opinion, > very unprofessional. In Al's own words: "I normally do not welsh on my > commitments. However, I believe this is an extra ordinary circumstance." It now seems that Al not only unprofessionally cancelled his seminar on our track, but he then approached Walt Keely and is now sheduled to present at the hotel on Friday evening. First, I reiterate my stance that I DO want to support the national society's efforts. I'm glad they now have a Friday evening program which was identified previously by listers as a missed opportunity. Second, I think this is a "first rate weasel" move on Mr. Buchan's part. (Perhaps we should start an award?) Now that we all understand where the loyalties lie... Since a small few on the list think they are making a name for themselves by forwarding posts as this to national officers...I state the above with full knowlege that it will appear in the public list archives, that Mr. Buchan is on this list, and that Walt Keely will see it. I have no problem with that. (Kind of takes away your celebrity, doesn't it?) -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:03:42 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 6:29 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Jerry and list, Thanks for posting an accurate description of my withdrawal from the PRR-Talk program. Although my message of withdrawal to Brad Bower was more lengthy and better covered my anguish. This was not an easy decision for me, I discussed it yesterday with several associates and even talked about it with my wife last evening before sending Brad the message. I sincerely appreciate the confidence you all expressed in me by asking me to do the show and I sincerely regret having to do what I did. I applaud the scrambling effort of Brad Bower who put together a last minute alternate program to supplement the official PRRT&HS program scheduled to take place during the Lewistown trip. And I also understand the position of the group in not wanting to let the museum down after they had gone out of their way. That's what makes this a very unusual and difficult situation. Jerry I did what I did after a lot of soul searching, if you want to consider what I did unprofessional that's your choice. However, some redeeming news has come out of all this mess, in that Walt Keely (PRRT&HS Convention Chair) has advised me that the PRRT&HS will schedule the MW Equipment show for Friday evening at 7:30 p.m. So those of you who want to see it will have the opportunity and those of you who may be upset with my decision can boycott it. Al John 8:7 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AndersonCL@nswccd.navy.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:22:49 -0400 I'm new to this group so let me get in may "two cents" worth... I have to "quibble" with the assertion that PRR was "for better or worse" locked into 25 HZ AC power... when - and this is infered, that 60HZ - the Amercian commercial standard, was available. There were specific technical details that precluded use of 60HZ until relatively recent times... the late 1950's and early 1960's. It all goes back to the very beginning of commerical electricity over 100 years ago and the arguments involing what was best AC or DC. By the trun of the Century Westinghouse became the champion of AC power and General Electric (Tom Edison's Company)DC. In short there were significant advantages and disadvantages in both systems at the time... DC was great for the varying load demands of locomotives and AC wasn't! AC was easy distributed from the source to the load and DC wasn't! In the end a "compromise" utilizing the best qualities of both was needed... solving that vexing problem took the better part of 75 years. As a result of legislation requiring a "Smoke Free" New York the Pennsy's arch enemy NYC determine the string DC 3rd rail and NH AC overhead catenary. The NH was rthe real pioneer in this instance since they required operation into the new GCT using both sources. The key element was development of the COMMUTATED MOTOR in conjunction AC at low frequency... which "fooled" that motors into thinking it was Direct Current. AC motors exhibit low torque - turning power, and are most efficient at a synchronis speed. With some technical "juggling" AC motors incotporated "smoothing reactors" and other devices which made the current impressed for turning the wheels appear DC "like". As far as infrastructure AC require frequency conversion... many traction companies had large motor generator sets that took commercial AC and converted it to DC for use by trolley cars. The Pennsy established long term contracts with Philadelphia Electric Company (now PECO Energy) - not Pennsylvania Electric, which provided the frequency converters and requisite 25 HZ power to PRR's substations. By the time Coniwingo Dam came on line... in the 1920's, PRR could "tap" that source for expansion of its electrified lines north and south of Philadelphia. The is an interesting and complex story related to the use of PECO's power from Coniwingo that involes ROW for getting "the juice" from Maryland into Philadelphia. The RDG allowed PECO... in a first time ever application, to erect power towers from Plymouth Township PA along its Main Line and Norristown Branches into the City near Wayne Junction where the lines were routed underground. This helped RDG develop similar plans to string AC wire along its lines... due to the depression only the electrification of its suburban lines was ever completed. PECO, very early installed a frequency conversion station at its Schuykill Power Plant which still supplies the NEC. The New Haven had its own generating plant at Cos Cob, CT... so CONED never was in the picture. Back in the late 1920's PRR used its muscle by indicating it would build its own power station near Morrisvile. Of course this never happened since a very lucrative and beneficial "rate" was given to PRR. With the practical introduction of the Ignitron rectifier the advantages of DC motors in conjunction with AC power distribution were realized. Subsequent improvements... silicon and other solid sate material made "on board" rectification by locomotives - Motors, if you desire, more reliable and effecient. All this precluded the further use of 25 HZ distribution. But conversion is an extremely expensive proposition... The conversion of the former DL&W Morris-Essex DC lines had nothing to do with dropping the pans on the "G" Motors. The cracked frames, PCB filled transformers and just plain old age with the attendent increased maintenance costs "did them in". So here we are at 1999... regards, Chas -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:herzog1@gate.net] Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:56 AM To: talk prr; Fred G Rea Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Perhaps you are all confused as to why the change from 25HZ to 60 Hz in the first place. The reason is that the Pennsy built their own power plants to supply their own power to themselves in the early 1900s and designed the system to be to THEIR best advantage. Since they were "married" into 25 HZ, the extensions in the 30s had to be 25HZ (for better or for worse). Then at some point in time, (probably post World War II) the PRR sold the whole works to Pennelec and I guess Con Ed, who had to continue to sell power to the railroad from the Conewingo plant etc. By converting to 60HZ, the electric companies could furnish power to the railroad from whatever source they choose. As I said in a previous post, it was the Lackawanna re-electrificiation in the late 70s that gave the final push to make the plunge and the GG-1s were past due for replacement anyhoo. Oh by the way. The real achilies heel, if you will, on the GG-1s were their main frames that were severely prone to cracking around the stress-relief holes (that made them look like Swiss Cheese). The freight Gs (i.e. the older ones) were worse in this aspect than the newer ones (as I remember it). Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Fred G Rea To: tvpete@usa.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz >Peter etal: > >While I did design and transformers and power supplies for only a short >time in the 1960's, I did not forget the relationship between frequency >and the size of the cores. > >No, my concern was that any new 60 Hz equipment could not be used until >all the overhead was at 60 Hz. My best lesson on all this is now on my >layout. A 120v 400Hz variac that works fine as a throttle when I feed >it with 12v AC at 60 Hz but would probably blow a fuse at 120v 60 Hz. >The 400 Hz came, as you might guess, from an aircraft application. 400 >Hz in aircraft because you can build equipment with much less iron in the >cores. An important issue when synchros etc were popular. In the 60's a >variac was the Cadillac of throttles. Getting a surplus one for free was >fantastic, even if it was for 400 hz.. > >Going the other way, puzzles me, I am not sure what 60 HZ would do to >transformers and rotating machinery. It sure would speed up synchronous >motors however. Any idea what it would due to an entire GG1? > >At any rate, evolution from 25 Hz to 60 hz would be interesting. >Apparently they did it. One guess is they had transitionslocos designed >for either. Efficient use of materials would be complicated by dual >frequency requirement. > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 11:53:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update From: "Jerry Britton" > However, some redeeming news has come out of all this mess, in that Walt > Keely (PRRT&HS Convention Chair) has advised me that the PRRT&HS will > schedule the MW Equipment show for Friday evening at 7:30 p.m. So those of > you who want to see it will have the opportunity and those of you who may be > upset with my decision can boycott it. As I alluded to in my recent post to the list, I think the fact that there is now a scheduled seminar for Friday evening is good, despite how it happened. I am not by any means recommending nor endorsing a boycott of any kind, for the record. However, I will likely miss the session as I tend to my table in the vendors room. A fully revised schedule from Walt was to be mailed to registrants this past Monday. I will update the web site (http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com) as soon as I receive it. Al: Your session begins at 7:30 you say. Is it still slated for 1-1/4 hours? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:09:59 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Overview Bridge is open Greetings to Jerry and the list A quick news item. Yesterday morning, East Pennsboro Township officials cut the ribbon on a $2.3 million concrete-and-steel replacement for the 1904-05 "iron bridge" at the north end of Enola Yard. It incorporates three railfan-friendly features: -- parking lot for about 10 cars at the west end. -- double shoulders, to accommodate train-watchers on both sides. -- windows in the chain-link fence to allow photography/videography. There are 10 on each side, each measuring about 2 feet high by nine feet long. The opening of the bridge also reopens access to Rockville Bridge from the south. The "iron bridge" was closed in 1992 as unsafe. Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 27:8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:38:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Apology to the List From: "Jerry Britton" Following receipt of very courteous e-mail from a subscriber -- whose work I happen to admire a great deal -- I am submitting an apology to the list regarding the "name calling" I did this morning with regard to Mr. Buchan. My comment was made hastily, in the heat of the moment, and I went too far. The matter is made worse, as was politely pointed out, that as listmaster I must set the example for others to follow. So, my aplogies to both the list and Mr. Buchan about that portion of the matter at hand. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:27:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] re: CONVENTION AGENDA UPDATE Jerri & folks, I guess I don't understand a lot of what's going on between the prr-talk folks and the National leadership, other than what's been publicly exchanged this morning. Seems due to recent changes in schelduling we have a conflict of sorts resulting in an unhappy exchange of thoughts.This is regrettable, to be sure, but I really hope it can be ironed out. I realize that in a hobby in which we have so much emotional investment and into which we pour an awfully lot of effort, it's easy to step on toes and to hurt feelings. But can there please be some forgiving here? Looks to me like Al Buchan got caught in some last-minute time juggling and I'm sure nothing was done in a malicious manner. How about picking up the pieces and going on from here? I don't get close enough to Pennsy territory often enough to know the immediate politics at the National level, but I'm getting some bad vibes here, as they say in the old country. Jerri, if there's a conflict with Walt Keely at the national level, and the proposed cyber chapter representative, folks are liable to take sides and/or get an impression of competition, whether it actually exists or not. Please believe me, we don't want to open some kind of gulf amounst the Pennsy fraternity. And with the old guard having there own way of looking at things, it's a safe bet that boat-rocking is not welcomed. I can see where you feel like you've been stiffed and have a gripe, but I'd still like to suggest taking things easy. I saw one hell of a conflict develope over at another HS covering a midwestern railroad and now there's two distinctly different organizations that share a relationship similar to that of north and South Korea. It doesn't appear things are that fearsome in Pennsyland and it appears the cyber chapter still has a positive image coming into the convention, at least from my limited perspective, so hopefully things will end up heading in the right direction. All I can say is to take it easy. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:13:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 >Question: Is the Bowser kit really a N5? The platform ends and collision >bars look to me like the WW 2 era upgrades (and N5A/B). Vagel, Very Perceptive! I was leafing through one of the "Color Guides" trying to answer the pile driver question when I re-read the N5 captions. Under one, it notes that the N5 cabin in the photo is equipped with the N5b/c style collision posts, and that the N5 was upgraded with these around/after WWII. The N5b and N5c were built with them. Thus, the Bowser model is most accurate as a post-WWII N5. Modeling a pre-WWII N5 requires replacement of the castings on the end to remove the heavy collision posts. I know that there are several after-market detail kits for these cabins including grabs, windows etc...does one have the original ends? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:41:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Overview Bridge is open From: "Jerry Britton" Dan Cupper wrote: > Yesterday morning, East Pennsboro Township officials cut the ribbon on a > $2.3 million concrete-and-steel replacement for the 1904-05 "iron > bridge" at the north end of Enola Yard. It incorporates three > railfan-friendly features: > > -- parking lot for about 10 cars at the west end. > > -- double shoulders, to accommodate train-watchers on both sides. > > -- windows in the chain-link fence to allow photography/videography. > There are 10 on each side, each measuring about 2 feet high by nine feet > long. > > The opening of the bridge also reopens access to Rockville Bridge from > the south. The "iron bridge" was closed in 1992 as unsafe. And to his credit, Dan Cupper was involved in the design...and never taking credit for his thoughful work! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:22:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] convention agenda Most of the time I just read the letters and gain more knowledge about this great hobby, but I'm sticking my 2 cents worth in on this one. It seems to me that if anyone from PRR - talk can help make the convention better for EVERYONE then they should do it. I appreciate the fact that Jerry and some others were trying to fill the gaps for the time periods they felt needed to be filled but there will be thousands of people there. Why not give your blessing to spreading some of the wealth of knowledge that the members of PRR - talk have to them? It is only going to make the convention better as some have felt it was lacking in areas and possibly draw more interest into the hobby and maybe even the cyber chapter. Many people don't have the time or are not within traveling distance to join a chapter and become ACTIVE members but as more and more households are gaining access to the Internet this may give them the nudge to join AND contribute some of their knowledge. We are all adults - shake hands. Set an example for all those interested. (We all knew the convention was coming up. Any one of us could have contacted those in charge at anytime during the planning stages and offered our help. Did we?) Dayna Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] New Web Pages Online Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:02:24 -0400 We invite you to examine our new website at: You will find the latest RAILFAN NEWS of Conway Yard and the Beaver Valley, which will be UPDATED at least every few days. Your comments and suggestions are most welcome! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:05:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BANKS Tower From: "Jerry Britton" Back to your regularly scheduled programming... Anyone know when BANKS Tower, Marysville PA, was razed? I worked in that area in 1986 and I walked the tracks from Rockville to BANKS, mapping as I went, for in those days I was ignorant to the existence of "Track Charts"! Anyway, I'd like to say BANKS was still there then, but I'm not certain. I recall the two signal bridges, as I had drawn their signal heads on my charts for reference. SEMI-RELATED: The new bridge at Overlook is now open. It was on the news the other night, talking about its design features geared towards railfans. 8-) -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:59:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] re: CONVENTION AGENDA UPDATE From: "Jerry Britton" > I guess I don't understand a lot of what's going on between the prr-talk > folks and the National leadership, other than what's been publicly exchanged > this morning. Seems due to recent changes in schelduling we have a conflict > of sorts resulting in an unhappy exchange of thoughts.This is regrettable, to > be sure, but I really hope it can be ironed out. I realize that in a hobby in > which we have so much emotional investment and into which we pour an awfully > lot of effort, it's easy to step on toes and to hurt feelings. But can there > please be some forgiving here? Looks to me like Al Buchan got caught in some > last-minute time juggling and I'm sure nothing was done in a malicious > manner. How about picking up the pieces and going on from here? The source of the problem was that National created an extremely unattractive event agenda for Friday. We stepped up to the plate and made an attractive program. National cancelled their program. That's when the trouble started. We already had a good lineup in an attractive venue. They, then, scheduled opposite us in another venue. We spoke about using our events as "theirs", which both Brad and I fully supported. However, they wanted to move it to the hotel to accommodate more people. That was okay also, to a point. The problem is, the museum really went out of their way to provide a venue, with equipment. With that commitment, they are expecting 50-60+ admissions (discounted). It would not be fair of us to pull the plug on them, now would it? National now plans a bus tour to the museum in the morning. Wouldn't it have been nice for them to work with us...creating an all-day venue at the museum? Guess that was too convenient...national shot it down. I asked about a Friday night event, but was told that space was not available to the society. Hmmm...now it's really greasy, as one of our speakers leaves to speak Friday night! It is indeed an unfortunate situation. If only we had known that Mr. Buchan's commitment was one of "if nothing else comes up" we might have done things differently. I am truly glad national now has a Friday night session. These sessions are expected...and expected to be in the same town as the hotel! > I don't get close enough to Pennsy territory often enough to know the > immediate politics at the National level, but I'm getting some bad vibes > here, as they say in the old country. Jerri, if there's a conflict with Walt > Keely at the national level, and the proposed cyber chapter representative, > folks are liable to take sides and/or get an impression of competition, > whether it actually exists or not. Please believe me, we don't want to open > some kind of gulf amounst the Pennsy fraternity. And with the old guard > having there own way of looking at things, it's a safe bet that boat-rocking > is not welcomed. I can see where you feel like you've been stiffed and have a > gripe, but I'd still like to suggest taking things easy. I saw one hell of a > conflict develope over at another HS covering a midwestern railroad and now > there's two distinctly different organizations that share a relationship > similar to that of north and South Korea. It doesn't appear things are that > fearsome in Pennsyland and it appears the cyber chapter still has a positive > image coming into the convention, at least from my limited perspective, so > hopefully things will end up heading in the right direction. As for the Cyber Chapter, I'm facilitating its happening. Hopefully all will go smooth. The charter members will elect officers. I certainly don't need to be among them. I'll gladly step aside for a more senior, duly qualified member who is willing to invest the time. If Walt is being honest with me, then we have met all requirements for establishing a chapter (10 national members). All that is left is to apply, and Walt has promised me the procedure via mail (the by-laws). I am acting totally openly and honestly with Walt about this proposed chapter. There is no "boat rocking" involved unless someone at national starts it. I think the Cyber Chapter is not only a good idea, but a necessity. As our society ages and passes on, what will be left? Who will keep things going? How? The Cyber Chapter has the means to reach out to potential members anywhere on earth, without restriction to travelable locations, geographic boundaries, the need for passports, etc. All for now... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 11:02:49 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Jerry, I have hesitated to use a public forum such as this to upbraid an individual, but this E'mail I am responding to in addition to others I have passed over in the past need to be addressed. I first off would like to make note of the fact I am not in the political stream of things. I am located in No. Idaho and in fact have only met one other member of the PRRH&TS! In my opinion, the society is the major player today in most things concerned with the PRR. Through the society and the members that have made it happen, more of and about the PRR has been preservered and diseminated then by any other entity I can think of. With this in mind, the logical plan of action for any serious student of the PRR would be to wholly support the society. This is not a question of loyalty as you have stated in your e'mail to Mr. Buchan, this is a matter of common sense. I personally can not find fault with Mr. Buchan's decision to change his presentation to the convention. The convention is the society's, no one elses. like it or not, any other organizations other than the society are second fiddle to the society and the convention. The society needs the support of talented people like your self and others in order to continue. However, the devisive "them and us" attitude that you appear to be displaying is likly only headed to cause a split or at minimum a lot of infighting with in the society. This can destroy a organizations momentum for years if it is not indeed fatal. A volunteer organization does not need this type of dissention. A volunteer organization of the caliber of the PRRH&TS does not deserve this type of dissention. Jerry, you have been critisizing the "old guard" ever since I joined this list. Lately you have been finding fault with the people organizing this years convention. I have yet to read anything of you spending volunteer time in anyway connected with the society, much less with this convention. I'm sure that the organizers would have liked the relief of more bodies to help put the convention on track. From what I can see, many if not most of the "old guard" are where they are due to an investment in "sweat equity" supporting the society and being able to invest the time (and in some cases money) to make the society survive. How can you honestly expect support for a board position when you have not supported the society? You say that the situation at the convention was not ment to be competitive. >From the e'mails I have read that you have sent, this is not true! You have repeatedly made comments as well on "wanting to make an impression". You have done this, but with your comments, it may not be a good one. Your name calling on this email and previous ones is uncalled for and very poor form. On other list I have been subscribed to, offenders have been unsubscribed for less. I do not wish to seem to minimize your efforts in your web page or PRR talk. For someone located in the sticks as I am, these and other web pages are a real spice of life. However, we all need to support the society, for is the magnet that draws PRR history, data, and SPF's together. For those who attend the convention, remember to find and personally thank the people who have made the effort to make it happen. They have been putting the convention together while the rest of us have been spending our spare time playing at our hobbies. Sincerely, Doug Edwards Jerry Britton wrote: > > Earlier I reported: > > > Al Buchan now feels that he is involved in a "competitive" situation. > > Perhaps so, but it was certainly unintentional. I suppose it is his right > > to do so, but to do so for a much publicized event is, in my opinion, > > very unprofessional. In Al's own words: "I normally do not welsh on my > > commitments. However, I believe this is an extra ordinary circumstance." > > It now seems that Al not only unprofessionally cancelled his seminar on our > track, but he then approached Walt Keely and is now sheduled to present at > the hotel on Friday evening. > > First, I reiterate my stance that I DO want to support the national > society's efforts. I'm glad they now have a Friday evening program which was > identified previously by listers as a missed opportunity. > > Second, I think this is a "first rate weasel" move on Mr. Buchan's part. > (Perhaps we should start an award?) > > Now that we all understand where the loyalties lie... > > Since a small few on the list think they are making a name for themselves by > forwarding posts as this to national officers...I state the above with full > knowlege that it will appear in the public list archives, that Mr. Buchan is > on this list, and that Walt Keely will see it. I have no problem with that. > (Kind of takes away your celebrity, doesn't it?) > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! > Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 5 Aug 99 15:09:54 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Fred: An AC motor doesn't have to be a synchronous motor. Any AC motor will increase it's speed as it's supply Frequency is increased. The ratio of the frequency change, in this case 25/60 will tell you change in the motors designed speed to it's new speed at the new frequency. Thus a 25 cycle motor designed to run at 1,437.5 RPM would run at 3,450 RPM on 60 cycles. Prior to twenty years ago AC motor speed control was a diffucult task, how ever solid state electronics have made speed control, via frequency change rather easy, which has prompted the current move to AC motored Diesels. If today's technology had been available in 1900, 25 cycle power would never have been used on any RR. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Apology to the List Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:17:34 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 12:39 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Apology to the List Jerry, Your apology is accepted. I have always been of the opinion that it takes a big man to publicly admit he made a mistake and you have done that. However, I must admit I am somewhat disappointed as I guess I will not now be getting the PRR-Talk's First Annual Weasel (First Class) Award. I did have a space in my trophy case for it. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:31:57 -0400 Gentlemen: Although I am not a member of the PRR Society, I do belong to one that follows my railroad and try to do things in that organization. I joined this list to learn something about the Delmarva Peninsular Operations and have found many items to be of interest. I would like to say that I agree with Mr. Edwards in his opinion of the way this your Society is headed is something similar to what happened on the Southeast Modelers List when several people of one group decided that several people of another opinion should not be with them, they severed the ties and moved to another location. If you don't overlook some of the other guys faults, you can't expect them to overlook yours. It has to be a give and take approach to make it work. I dare say that if you polled 50 of your members, you would possibly have 50 opinions. I'll get off my soap box now. Larry Denton -----Original Message----- From: Silver Pines Farm To: Jerry Britton Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update >Jerry, > >I have hesitated to use a public forum such as this to upbraid an >individual, >but this E'mail I am responding to in addition to others I have passed >over >in the past need to be addressed. > >I first off would like to make note of the fact I am not in the >political >stream of things. I am located in No. Idaho and in fact have only met >one >other member of the PRRH&TS! > >In my opinion, the society is the major player today in most things >concerned >with the PRR. Through the society and the members that have made it >happen, >more of and about the PRR has been preservered and diseminated then by >any >other entity I can think of. With this in mind, the logical plan of >action >for any serious student of the PRR would be to wholly support the >society. >This is not a question of loyalty as you have stated in your e'mail to >Mr. >Buchan, this is a matter of common sense. I personally can not find >fault with Mr. Buchan's decision to change his presentation to >the convention. The convention is the society's, no one elses. like >it or not, any other organizations other than the society are second >fiddle to the society and the convention. > >The society needs the support of talented people like your self and >others >in order to continue. However, the devisive "them and us" attitude that >you appear to be displaying is likly only headed to cause a split >or at minimum a lot of infighting with in the society. This can destroy >a organizations momentum for years if it is not indeed fatal. >A volunteer organization does not need this type of dissention. >A volunteer organization of the caliber of the PRRH&TS does not deserve >this type of dissention. > >Jerry, you have been critisizing the "old guard" ever since I joined >this list. >Lately you have been finding fault with the people organizing this years >convention. I have yet to read anything of you spending volunteer time >in anyway >connected with the society, much less with this convention. I'm sure >that >the organizers would have liked the relief of more bodies to help put >the >convention on track. From what I can see, many if not most of the "old >guard" >are where they are due to an investment in "sweat equity" supporting the >society and being able to invest the time (and in some cases money) to >make >the society survive. How can you honestly expect support for a board >position >when you have not supported the society? > >You say that the situation at the convention was not ment to be >competitive. >>From the e'mails I have read that you have sent, this is not true! You >have >repeatedly made comments as well on "wanting to make an impression". >You have >done this, but with your comments, it may not be a good one. > >Your name calling on this email and previous ones is uncalled for and >very >poor form. On other list I have been subscribed to, offenders have been >unsubscribed for less. > >I do not wish to seem to minimize your efforts in your web page or PRR >talk. >For someone located in the sticks as I am, these and other web pages are >a real spice of life. However, we all need to support the society, for >is >the magnet that draws PRR history, data, and SPF's together. > >For those who attend the convention, remember to find and personally >thank >the people who have made the effort to make it happen. They have been >putting >the convention together while the rest of us have been spending our >spare time >playing at our hobbies. > > >Sincerely, > >Doug Edwards > >Jerry Britton wrote: >> >> Earlier I reported: >> >> > Al Buchan now feels that he is involved in a "competitive" situation. >> > Perhaps so, but it was certainly unintentional. I suppose it is his right >> > to do so, but to do so for a much publicized event is, in my opinion, >> > very unprofessional. In Al's own words: "I normally do not welsh on my >> > commitments. However, I believe this is an extra ordinary circumstance." >> >> It now seems that Al not only unprofessionally cancelled his seminar on our >> track, but he then approached Walt Keely and is now sheduled to present at >> the hotel on Friday evening. >> >> First, I reiterate my stance that I DO want to support the national >> society's efforts. I'm glad they now have a Friday evening program which was >> identified previously by listers as a missed opportunity. >> >> Second, I think this is a "first rate weasel" move on Mr. Buchan's part. >> (Perhaps we should start an award?) >> >> Now that we all understand where the loyalties lie... >> >> Since a small few on the list think they are making a name for themselves by >> forwarding posts as this to national officers...I state the above with full >> knowlege that it will appear in the public list archives, that Mr. Buchan is >> on this list, and that Walt Keely will see it. I have no problem with that. >> (Kind of takes away your celebrity, doesn't it?) >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com >> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" >> http://kc.pennsyrr.com >> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products >> http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >> Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! >> Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 21:43:54 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Inquiry: Whereabouts of Geo. Straits Circus Train Follow up to all on this question The Strates Train snuck into town about 2 weeks ago....nice to know that something like that can slip in even in this age of the internet. Has been in town 2 weeks already and wont be leaving til 8/23. I am amazed that it made it in to town and NOONE knew. I am on about 6 different lists and NOT one of them mentioned anything about the Strates Train coming this way. Oh Well....Will have to catch it on the way out!!! On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, alcoman wrote: > >Hello Terry > >Just as a future reference,,,,,it is the James E. Strates train and the >Erie County Fair and Expo (which they come to town for) is being held from >August 11-22. According to the Strates Shows webpage at > >http://www.strates.com/route.htm > >July 23 - Aug. 1 >Essex - Middle River Fair >Baltimore, Maryland > >Aug. 11 - Aug. 22 >Erie County Fair >Hamburg, New York > > >Which basically means they should be heading this way some time real soon. >They usually come up the Buffalo Line from Harrisburg to Buffalo where the >train is handed off to the Buffalo Southern at BC Junction. I havent >heard anything about them as of today but I can imagine that it will be >here sometime in the next few days. > > >On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, W. Terry Stuart wrote: > >>Does anyone on the list know the present location of the Geo. Straits Circus >>train? >> >>It was originally scheduled to be somehwere around Buffalo, Rochester, or >>Syracuse, NY at this time. >> >>Any help would be very much appreciated. >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> > >W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support >alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System >x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network >http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud >bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server > > Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Apology to the List Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:48:47 -0400 (EDT) > Jerry, > > Your apology is accepted. I have always been of the opinion that it takes a > big man to publicly admit he made a mistake and you have done that. However, > I must admit I am somewhat disappointed as I guess I will not now be getting > the PRR-Talk's First Annual Weasel (First Class) Award. I did have a space > in my trophy case for it. > > Al Dang! I thought _I_ was getting it! -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Price" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:48:28 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Larry Denton To: stueart@ior.com ; Jerry Britton Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update >Gentlemen: > >Although I am not a member of the PRR Society, I do belong to one that >follows my railroad and try to do things in that organization. I joined >this list to learn something about the Delmarva Peninsular Operations and >have found many items to be of interest. > >I would like to say that I agree with Mr. Edwards in his opinion of the way >this your Society is headed is something similar to what happened on the >Southeast Modelers List when several people of one group decided that >several people of another opinion should not be with them, they severed the >ties and moved to another location. If you don't overlook some of the other >guys faults, you can't expect them to overlook yours. A train club(?) that I belong to recently had some differences of opinion and the solution was intresting enough. Simply pass some retroactivce rules targeted at specific members in order to run them out. Conspire and politic it and vote it in. I wonder if the same thing could happen here? I've heard that it worked to quell the infighting(provided that those targeted actually quit). Ed Ed It has to be a give >and take approach to make it work. I dare say that if you polled 50 of your >members, you would possibly have 50 opinions. > >I'll get off my soap box now. > >Larry Denton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:28:41 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Competition Hi everyone, I don't really know if others out there have noticed this, but over the last few days, there has been a significant change in the nature of the PRR-Talk track presentation. When we started out, it was ALWAYS, ALWAYS stated that the plan was NOT to be competing with the Society in terms of scheduling events. Due to a series of many twists and turns, it would seem clear we are now in a position where we are doing exactly what we had said we would NOT be doing. Is everyone OK with that? I'm NOT saying we should no longer proceed, but what I AM saying is that we should all be aware of the change that has occured. IF we do proceed, we all need to be aware of doing so on this basis. There has been no open, explicit discussion of this. It seems to me there should be... The podium is open - anyone else have any thoughts on this??? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER Missing Mail? Date: Fri, 6 Aug 99 06:50:57 -0400 From: Jerry A handful of you reported missing some posts yesterday, as evidenced by references to messages you did not receive. "PRR-Talk" had over 50 posts yesterday. I checked the logs, and several accounts, including the ones in question, returned bounces to the effect of "user over quota", "mailbox full", etc. That means that you could have gotten messages A, B, C, but when my server tried to send D it bounced. Then you retried A, B, C, and other mail. When my server got back to your server for message E, it would go through, as the mailbox is now at or near empty. That explains the holes. Also, the server may try to forward the missing mail again later, so you can end up getting stuff out of order. -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Competition Date: Fri, 6 Aug 99 06:45:10 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/5/99 11:28 PM, Claus Schlund (schlund@cwnet.com) wrote: >I don't really know if others out there have noticed this, but >over the last few days, there has been a significant change in the >nature of the PRR-Talk track presentation. When we started out, >it was ALWAYS, ALWAYS stated that the plan was NOT to be competing >with the Society in terms of scheduling events. Agreed. > >Due to a series of many twists and turns, it would seem clear we are now >in a position where we are doing exactly what we had said we >would NOT be doing. Agreed. When National cancelled, we were the ones with the only program in Altoona. In effect, national began competing with us. This was unfortunate. I tried to broker an arrangement with Walt Keely to use our programs. Unfortunately, he only had meeting space from 12-3 on Friday, which wasn't enough for all three of our programs. AND, he told me that there was no space for Friday night. The latter changed, as Al Buchan's presentation is now Friday night. Had Walt conferred with me about the new opening Friday night, we could have moved our two remaining talks to Friday afternoon between 12 and 3. Unfortunately, Walt chose not to communicate with us. The other issue is that Brad Bower feels very strongly that we not move out of the museum, given the spread they have laid out for us, at no charge. I did not disagree, though I was perhaps not quite as firm on the issue. > >Is everyone OK with that? I'm NOT saying we should no longer >proceed, but what I AM saying is that we should all be aware >of the change that has occured. IF we do proceed, we all need to >be aware of doing so on this basis. Tough call. I, for one, am very excited about the X-29 presentation and personally don't want to see it cancelled! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Fri, 6 Aug 99 06:35:57 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/5/99 6:48 PM, Price (eprice@skantech.net) wrote: >A train club(?) that I belong to recently had some differences of opinion >and the solution was intresting enough. Simply pass some retroactivce rules >targeted at specific members in order to run them out. Conspire and politic >it and vote it in. I wonder if the same thing could happen here? I've >heard that it worked to quell the infighting(provided that those targeted >actually quit). With a small train club, you might get away with some retroactive rules. However, with a large, formal organization, it's not that easy. Especially if they are incorporated, which I think the PRRT&HS (for tax reasons). I am on the board of directors of a not-for-profit in Pennsylvania (and was instrumental in its incorporation). I'm not sure what state the PRRT&HS would be incorporated in, but in Pennsylvania, under the not-for-profit, the members at large control the by-laws, etc. A central governing body (the board) can make the recommendations, edit the wording, etc., but the membership has to approve the changes. Furthermore, my own business is incorporated. However, since I own 100% of the stock, I can pull all the strings. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:56:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 Some of the N5 cabin cars were updated with the collision posts and I believe the A & B sub-classes of the car were built new with them. Greg Martin's brother (Ed?) had an excellent article on detailing an N5 a few years ago in Mainline Modeler. Sitting here at work and trying to remember what things look like, I think the Bowser car represents an N5-B. This may be the way the was (someone please correct me if I'm wrong): N5 - As built, no collision posts. N5A - As built, Collision posts. N5B - As built, Collision posts plus built in accomodations for train phone system. This by no ways means that I'm saying N5A's did not have train phones. The B's had an outside cabinet for the train phones that altered the location of side handrails. You can consult the cabin car data base on Keystone Crossings to determine which cars had collision posts and or train phones. Backdating a Bowser car to a straight N5 does require more than just cutting off the posts. The roof and end platforms on the subclasses were curved (or peaked?)at the point were the posts were located. These need to sanded down so they run straight across the body and then new end railings fabricated. I've been working on backdating a Bowser car and I just have to do the end railings and it's finished. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:26:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado From: "Jerry Britton" Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: 1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? 2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are no such references. But I am not an expert!) 3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Convention Controversy Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:42:45 -0400 Hi All! I have a few thoughts on the change in the convention plans and the fallout thereof. I agree that Jerry may have been a little short with Al over the change in plans, but I too would be more than a little miffed if a speaker cancelled under those conditions. It's not just that Jerry arranged for him to speak. A venue has been arranged, equipment spoken for, and now he cancels. The society has changed horses in mid stream at the last moment, and this is what has caused the conflict between the PRR-Talk track and the convention. Not that I can blame the society, as obviously they can't be concerned with what everybody else is doing when trying to organize a major convention. Their first and only concern is to pull their event off with the maximum amount of success. As for them vetoing using the museum for the venue, and thus not adopting the PRR-Talk event, I see their point. If the venue is too small, they can't really make use of it. However, I totally agree with Jerry that it would be very bad karma to cancel the use of the museum at this point, when they've gone to a lot of trouble to accomodate us. They certainly won't be interested in accomodating any of our requests ever again if we do. I don't see that either side is at fault or being unduly difficult here. It's just a bad combination of circumstances. The only questionable act in my opinion is Al's cancelling on PRR-Talk. It's now Aug. 6, three weeks before the convention, and the society should have finalized their speakers a long time ago. Al would have been well within his rights to say to them, "look, these guys were not competing with your program, and it's not right for me to cancel on them now, just because you guys decided to make major changes at the last minute." Don't consider that a condemnation of the conference organizers; I know that sometimes things have to be changed at the last minute. But other peoples events should not necessarily have to suffer because of it. An unfortunate situation indeed. Anyway, my two cents (one cent in Canadian $). Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:33:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Attendee List/Cyber Chapter From: "Jerry Britton" Just an update to the list on two projects: First, we have 30 subscribers planning to attend the convention. If you now plan to attend, but are not on the list, please submit your name, city, and state to me for inclusion on the list. (This list has no bearing on what events you attend; we just want to enable subscribers to meet each other.) Second, we have (thus far) 40 national PRRT&HS members signed up to become charter members of the Cyber Chapter, if approved. If you aren't on the list yet and want to be, please submit your full name, city, state, and national PRRT&HS membership number. (Once chartered we can welcome non-national members as well as additional national members.) Both of the aforementioned lists may be viewed at: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:26:19 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado >Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting >their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The >add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: > >1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, >making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? The answer is NO >2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my >cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are >no such references. But I am not an expert!) The answer is YES, class L-2...a forced purchase by the USRA during WWI of around a dozen locomotives. Most were disposed of fairly quickly, but apparently a few hung around at least up to WWII. Apparently these were mostly used in the hinterlands somewhere west of Pittsburgh (Tom V. should be in the market for one or two!). Pennsy Power 1 has a write up and photo. >3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, >say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? The reviewers say as good as or better!!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:34:11 -0700 Jerry and all, The USRA light mikado is in no way similar (except in wheel arrangement) to the PRR's class L1s locomotive. In fact, the L1s was similar to the USRA heavy mike...some think that without the Belapire firebox it was the prototype for the USRA's heavy mike. However, the Pennsy DID own 5 of these locomotives (I think Gary Mittner has a shot of one of these on his website), classed L2s, used on the GR&I. During the USRA peroid the Pennsy had many more of these, but after the end of the USRA, they disposed of most of these. >From what I can tell of the photo, the Athearn USRA version (no Belpaire on these) is close to class L2s...probably differing in minor details (such as class lights, markers, and such). Of course, rival NYC had scads of these...good news for those modeling the Elmira branch! Although I have heard excellent reports from people who have seen the pre-production versions, nobody at this time can honestly compare them to the Bachmann locomotives. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:04:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Answering Jerry's guestions in order: 1. I have heard of no plans to do an L1 with Belpaire boiler. If the mechanism was any good, I don't know if a Bowser boiler would fit. I asked on the steamloco list and Andy Sperandeo replied that the USRA mikados at least had the Walscherts(sp?) valve gear. I will have to dig out my notes on driver diameter tonight. 2. Pennsy had 5 L2s mikados which were USRA design. I think they spent most of their time around Cincinatti. 3. The goal is that the Athearn units should be good performers; we'll have to wait for the reviews. I believe they hat have can or skewed armature motors and are DCC ready. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:10:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Convention agenda Guys - Most of the time I just read the letters and gain more knowledge about this great hobby, but I'm sticking my 2 cents worth in on this one. It seems to me that if anyone from PRR - talk can help make the convention better for EVERYONE then they should do it. I appreciate the fact that Jerry and some others were trying to fill the gaps for the time periods they felt needed to be filled but there will be thousands of people there. Why not give your blessing to spreading some of the wealth of knowledge that the members of PRR - talk have to them? It is only going to make the convention better as some have felt it was lacking in areas and possibly draw more interest into the hobby and maybe even the cyber chapter. Many people don't have the time or are not within traveling distance to join a chapter and become ACTIVE members but as more and more households are gaining access to the Internet this may give them the nudge to join AND contribute some of their knowledge. We are all adults - shake hands. Set an example for all those interested. (We all knew the convention was coming up. Any one of us could have contacted those in charge at anytime during the planning stages and offered our help. Did we?) Dayna Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:26:54 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Jerry, After speaking with John Engstrom at the East Coast Hobby Show, I sent some information to him at Athearn on the PRR USRA locos, but don't know exactly how much other information they had already gathered by the time my information reached them. To answer your question, and to briefly restate what I sent Athearn in March '99--- The PRR didn't like these Schenectady-built locos and didn't keep many of them; hence, not much reliable information is available, and of course, only B/W photos. The ones they did keep were originally owned by the Grand Rapids & Indiana, a PRR subsidiary, and came to the PRR when USRA controls ceased and the PRR fully merged/incorporated the GR&I. I couldn't come up with any photos of them in GR&I lettering, but am advised they were black as delivered to the GR&I and passed on to the Pennsy. The Pennsy quickly sold off all but five, which it classed as L2s and renumbered to #9627-9731. The PRR also painted them DGLE and lettered them in gold. The headlight was repositioned to the top of the smokebox and a round brass number plate was cast, having a black field and bare brass numbers and outer border, and placed in the center of the smokebox cover. The standard pilot was replaced with a freight pilot (also called a drop step pilot). I also mentioned that the DGLE they'd been using for years on their F-units was way off and offered to send one of the PRRT&HS color drift cards on loan, but as I recall they already had gotten one for reference. That's all I know about the real locos, and I'm not sure exactly what information they got from anyone else besides me to help with the PRR accuracy. My guess on the "body style " variations would at least include the ability to relocate the headlight and bell, and add a number plate when necessary. I can't speak for the possibility of a Belpaire firebox, but with PRR and GN both using them, there might be a slim possibility of seeing this change in future production (personal opinion) as both road names are acknowledged good sellers, and there is reasonably easy variety that can be made on the models without much added tooling expense. Chuck Friedlein Jerry Britton wrote: > Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting > their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The > add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: > > 1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, > making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? > > 2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my > cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are > no such references. But I am not an expert!) > > 3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, > say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! > Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 14:51:56 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Portage RR --On Wed, Aug 4, 1999 5:44 PM +0000 "Fred G Rea" wrote: > > > While a bit off topic, let me recommend the relatively new display at the > site of the old Portage RR. Also, there are "living history" demos during the summer months. Last week (on a Tuesday afternoon) I lucked into a very excellent stone cutting demo in which a trained volunteer showed how the various tools were used to quarry stone sleepers and went into great detail on the method of laying track 1830's British Style. Worth a visit by all with an interest in early transportation technology. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:23:57 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: [PRR] N2s Class List, The USRA N2s class was built with Walchearts valve gear from one builder, and Southern valve gear from the other. Both sets had their boilers rebuilt with belpaire fireboxes. Did the locos that were built with the southern valvegear get rebuilt with Walchearts, or did they keep their southern gear till they were scrapped? Thanks Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 17:13:06 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] N2s Class --Boundary_(ID_MbRpmgW/SmbtaEoC81tSoA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, Regarding PRR N2sa rebuilds from class N2s, all of the photos in Pennsy Power 3 (pages 115, 117) show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear. Some of the shots in Pennsy Power 1 are too dark, but shots on page 86 and 87 show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear. Pennsy Steam: A Second look shows N2sa 8189 on 4 June 1949 with Southern valve gear; this is on page 108. On that save page is shown an engine with Walschaerts valve gear (8389). All of the photos in Pennsy Steam: A to T show engines with Walschaerts valve gear (pages 180-182). Based on my small sample and my standard warning that a little knowledge (on my part) can be a dangerous thing, it looks like most of the engines were either built with or converted to Walschaerts valve gear at some point in their lives (not necessarily coinciding with the suturing in of the Belpaire firebox, which started in April 1925 with engine 7212 according to Edson's all-time Pennsy steam roster). Hope this helps! Doug Kisala Silver Pines Farm wrote: > List, > > The USRA N2s class was built with Walchearts valve gear from one > builder, and Southern valve gear from the other. Both sets had > their boilers rebuilt with belpaire fireboxes. Did the > locos that were built with the southern valvegear get rebuilt > with Walchearts, or did they keep their southern gear till > they were scrapped? > > Thanks > > Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_MbRpmgW/SmbtaEoC81tSoA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,

Regarding PRR N2sa rebuilds from class N2s, all of the photos in Pennsy Power 3 (pages 115, 117) show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear.  Some of the shots in Pennsy Power 1 are too dark, but shots on page 86 and 87 show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear.  Pennsy Steam: A Second look shows N2sa 8189 on 4 June 1949 with Southern valve gear; this is on page 108.  On that save page is shown an engine with Walschaerts valve gear (8389).  All of the photos in Pennsy Steam: A to T show engines with Walschaerts valve gear (pages 180-182).

Based on my small sample and my standard warning that a little knowledge (on my part) can be a dangerous thing, it looks like most of the engines were either built with or converted to Walschaerts valve gear at some point in their lives (not necessarily coinciding with the suturing in of the Belpaire firebox, which started in April 1925 with engine 7212 according to Edson's all-time Pennsy steam roster).

Hope this helps!

Doug Kisala

Silver Pines Farm wrote:

List,

The USRA N2s class was built with Walchearts valve gear from one
builder, and Southern valve gear from the other.  Both sets had
their boilers rebuilt with belpaire fireboxes.  Did the
locos that were built with the southern valvegear get rebuilt
with Walchearts, or did they keep their southern gear till
they were scrapped?

Thanks

Doug

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--Boundary_(ID_MbRpmgW/SmbtaEoC81tSoA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:25:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado In a message dated 8/6/99 2:47:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, diehexe@uswest.net writes: > I > can't speak for the possibility of a Belpaire firebox, but with PRR and GN > both > using them, there might be a slim possibility of seeing this change in > future > production (personal opinion) as both road names are acknowledged good > sellers, > and there is reasonably easy variety that can be made on the models without > much > added tooling expense. My 2 cents. One, Athearn has often taken liberty with prototypes in order to sell models, the ATSF style caboose lettered for PRR and the B&O DD40 come to mind. So I would not count on a future release with a Belpaire firebox. Although the new owners seem to be trying to be more accurate with respect to Prototype paint schemes. The Genesis line may be different who knows. Two, the four body variations are due too the two different pilots, (footboard or road) and I believ the other variation is headlight placement. The boiler is the same for all beased on the info I received from Athearn. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:58:16 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Jerry and the List, Hi. Pennsy had a total of 38 USRA Light Mikes, but 33 of them didn't stay very long. There were 33 Light Mikes, numbered from 20006 to 20038, built by Alco and Lima in September and October of 1919 that soon went to the Missouri Pacific and the SLSF. My guess is that these engines were sold or returned to the USRA right around the time the USRA control of the railroads ended in 1920. Five USRA Light Mikes did stay on the PRR. Initially purchased for the GR&I, as their numbers 108 to 112, they were built by Alco in March 1919. They were renumbered (oddly enough, in sequence) to PRR 9627 to 9631 in 1921. All of the engines lasted past WWII, and all were dropped from the roster in 1948. My source for this is Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster, page 370. I have the PRR engine on order even though it's completely inappropriate for my New York and Long Branch; I think the USRA Light Mikes are great looking engines, so I'm getting two (the other will be the B&O version). There are few photos of the engines relative to the numerous L1s class, but there are two shots in Pennsy Power 3 on page 97, one shot in Pennsy Power 1 on page 59, and one photo in Pennsy Steam: A to T, page 159. Initially these engines had centered headlights, but later the front end arrangement was adjusted to PRR practices. Hope this helps! Doug Jerry Britton wrote: > Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting > their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The > add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: > > 1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, > making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? > > 2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my > cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are > no such references. But I am not an expert!) > > 3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, > say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! > Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:53:05 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Hi Jerry: I can't answer #1 or #3, but as far as question #2 is concerned, yes they did. I believe they owned a total of six class L2s. There is a photo of #9630 on page 59 of Staufer's Pennsy Power that looks like it will come pretty close to the Athearn model. The number that Athearn gives their Pennsy version is correct also. My bet is that it will be a good runner since it is being manufactured by Samhongsa. Sound's exciting to me. While we're on plastic steam, I just read the review of Bachman's K4 in MR. I'm surprised that they did not gig the model for incorrect driver size. I have one, and it's a nice engine, but I was very disappointed in the 76" drivers that they used. Kind of takes away from the beauty or the K4. Regards' Larry Jerry Britton wrote: > Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting > their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The > add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: > > 1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, > making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? > > 2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my > cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are > no such references. But I am not an expert!) > > 3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, > say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! > Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:35:00 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] N2s Class Thanks Doug, Looks like at least #8189 was likely scrapped still equiped with the southern valve gear. Doug doug.kisala wrote: > > Hello list, > > Regarding PRR N2sa rebuilds from class N2s, all of the photos in > Pennsy Power 3 (pages 115, 117) show the engines with Walschaerts > valve gear. Some of the shots in Pennsy Power 1 are too dark, but > shots on page 86 and 87 show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear. > Pennsy Steam: A Second look shows N2sa 8189 on 4 June 1949 with > Southern valve gear; this is on page 108. On that save page is shown > an engine with Walschaerts valve gear (8389). All of the photos in > Pennsy Steam: A to T show engines with Walschaerts valve gear (pages > 180-182). > > Based on my small sample and my standard warning that a little > knowledge (on my part) can be a dangerous thing, it looks like most of > the engines were either built with or converted to Walschaerts valve > gear at some point in their lives (not necessarily coinciding with the > suturing in of the Belpaire firebox, which started in April 1925 with > engine 7212 according to Edson's all-time Pennsy steam roster). > > Hope this helps! > > Doug Kisala > > Silver Pines Farm wrote: > > List, > > The USRA N2s class was built with Walchearts valve gear from > one > builder, and Southern valve gear from the other. Both sets > had > their boilers rebuilt with belpaire fireboxes. Did the > locos that were built with the southern valvegear get > rebuilt > with Walchearts, or did they keep their southern gear till > they were scrapped? > > Thanks > > Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:17:45 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Brian, I would agree with you on both counts, to a degree. It is very true that Athearn and all the other manufacturers who have been in business anywher near as long as Athearn have taken quite a lot of liberties in the models and the paint schemes they put on them. However, with the Genesis models, that liberty threshhold seems to have been drasitcally reduced. They are joining the likes of Life-Like's P2K, and others by listening to customers' wants as regards accuracy and operation, and are responding. I seriously doubt you'll see anywhere near as much liberty taken in painting these models as you did with the PRR on an ATSF caboose example. I also agree on the probability of the four variations being as you described. Let's just wait and see what happens once these first offerings are on the market and operating on some layouts for a while to see what comments are made by the owners. Chuck Friedlein FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/6/99 2:47:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > diehexe@uswest.net writes: > > > I > > can't speak for the possibility of a Belpaire firebox, but with PRR and GN > > both > > using them, there might be a slim possibility of seeing this change in > > future > > production (personal opinion) as both road names are acknowledged good > > sellers, > > and there is reasonably easy variety that can be made on the models > without > > much > > added tooling expense. > > My 2 cents. One, Athearn has often taken liberty with prototypes in order to > sell models, the ATSF style caboose lettered for PRR and the B&O DD40 come > to mind. So I would not count on a future release with a Belpaire firebox. > Although the new owners seem to be trying to be more accurate with respect to > Prototype paint schemes. The Genesis line may be different who knows. > > Two, the four body variations are due too the two different pilots, > (footboard or road) and I believ the other variation is headlight placement. > The boiler is the same for all beased on the info I received from Athearn. > Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:34:56 -0700 >They were renumbered (oddly enough, in sequence) to PRR 9627 to 9631 in 1921. Hi, Just to set the record straight, ALL Pennsy locomotives built after the 1920 consolidation were numbered in sequence. (Here I go with another sweeping generality...watch somebody prove me wrong!) The reason for the original "hodge-podge" numbering system was that originally the Pennsy numbered locomotives to reflect the division they were to be assigned to. As you worked your way west, the numbers got higher. (This still shows up with Lines West locomotives being numbered in the 7000-and up series). Once the system was consolidated after the end of the USRA era, the neccessity for this disappeared, and locomotives were assigned blocked numbers as they were built. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:14:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado If Athearn does not do the Belpaire fire box version, this would be a perfect project for someone to make a cast resin firebox which would fit over or into the Athearn. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] GG1 and HEP From: "Michael E. Allen" Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 23:47:13 EDT Gentlemen, Having been a regular commuter from Trenton to the District of Columbia during the late seventies/ early eighties I think I must have ridden behind every possible variant of locomotive and power car that Amtrak could dream up. There were two basic HEP cars. One type was built from army surplus hospital train kitchen cars. These are the ones that resemble short baggage cars. The other type was made by taking the rattiest old coach available, removing the seating, mounting fuel tanks in one end and a diesel generator in the other. While I suppose that there was some provision for an exhaust pipe the generator seemed to simply discharge int the car and allow the exhaust to seep out of the car where ever it could find an opening. These cars were easy to identify because of the cloud of blue smoke which surrounded them. MEA Being On Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:40:00 -0500 "doug.kisala" writes: > >--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) >Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > >Hello to Doug N and the list, > >My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the >following from memory. The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, >25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had >this >correction. If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated >biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could >again >visit the Northeast Corridor. The stuff dreams are made of.... > >The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on the >GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well. From what I recall, >4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and >one >of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class. > >The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 >raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III >pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 >electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that >heritage >car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from >the >locomotive). > >Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet >cars. This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the >GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars. > >I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated >cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern >incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in >service >until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and >F40PHs that arrived in 1983. > >Hope this helps!! > >Doug Kisala > > > >Doug and Marianne wrote: > >> >> >> With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe >> that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars >> were also retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with >> air supplied from the locomotive? >> >> Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, >> lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the >> locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do >> the new cars have? >> >> I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the >> transition period to power converted heritage and newer >> cars. Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I >> assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the >> time of the GG1 retirement. >> >> I also understand that the catenary power was changed from >> 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following >> retirement of the GG1's? I assume that these two events >> were related. >> >> Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is >> appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for >> the information. >> >> Doug N. >> >> babal@slip.net >> >> > >--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) >Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > > > >Hello to Doug N and the list, >

My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the >following from memory.  The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this >day, 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue >had >this correction.  If one could find a substitute for PCB >(Polychlorinated >biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could >again >visit the Northeast Corridor.   The stuff dreams are made >of.... >

The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on >the >GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well.  From what I >recall, >4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and >one >of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class. >

The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981.  One shot of ex-PRR >4935 raises some questions.  She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy >Power >III pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car.  Perhaps the >GG1 >electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that >heritage >car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from >the >locomotive). >

Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several >Amfleet >cars.  This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that >the >GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars. >

I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam >heated >cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern >incarnation >of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until >replaced >with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that >arrived >in 1983. >

Hope this helps!! >

Doug Kisala >
  >
  >

Doug and Marianne wrote: >

  >
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe >that >was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also >retired.  >Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the >locomotive? >

Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and >braked?? >with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - >HEP)?  >What kind of brakes do the new cars have? >

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition >period >to power converted heritage and newer cars.  Did NJ Transit use >any >HEP cars with their GG1's?  I assume that NJT retired all of its >steam >heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement. >

I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to >60Hz.  >Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the >GG1's?  >I assume that these two events were related. >

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is >appreciated.  >Any and all responses are welcome.  Thanks for the information. >

Doug N. >

babal@slip.net >
 

>
> > > > >--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ)-- > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:22:59 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] John Bull Replica at Altoona Greetings to the list, I just wanted to let everyone know that the John Bull replica which usually resides dormant at the PA State Railroad Museum at Strasburg, is visiting the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum for 2 weeks and is STEAMED UP and RUNNING in the museum yard.. It will only be running on this weekend and next. It was on its waay home from Railfair at the Calif State Railroad Museum, and stopped in for a visit to its home. For those of you not familiar with the John Bull, it's a replica of the 1st locomotive on the Camdon and Amboy RR (Bought by the PRR). The origional was consrtucted in england in 1831 and now resides at the Smithsonian. The replica was built by the PRR in 1939 at the Altoona Shops for the 1940 New York Worlds Fair. It ran in the "Railroads on Parade" pagent. The PRR actually tore down the original John Bull and made detailed drawings of it before it went oto the smithsonian. They then used these drawings to build the replica. If you can, come and see her!! Its not often you get to see pre-civil war locomtive technology at work. Plus how often do you get to see live steam in Altoona? Its worth the trip. Just thought you would like to know. Andy Mulhollen Altoona, PA _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention Agenda - National Update Date: Sat, 7 Aug 99 15:04:07 -0400 From: Jerry The Convention schedule has been updated... http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com The PRRT&HS has added two tours on Friday morning, a Friday afternoon session on modeling trains of the PRR, and a Friday evening open slide show (inc. Al Buchan's presentation). They have also added a non-railroad Trolly Tour on Saturday and a session on M-1's for after the banquet. Walt Keely has offered to disperse information about the "PRR-Talk" events (at the museum) within the registration packets. Everything is working out...there is only one event conflicting for time, though there are tightly-timed travel issues between a few sessions at different venues. Hope to see you there! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:54:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 Hi Guys, I just ordered a Westerfield kit of a GLa hopper. Trucks are not included. Question is: Would a set of 50-Ton, Andrews be the proper trucks for this car? And if so, could someone please offer an opinion as to the most accurate rendition of what's available and who might carry them. Also, a question concerning the painting of these trucks. Westerfield shows a finished model of the GLa in their catalog. It's trucks are painted the same color as the rest of the car. Was this paint scheme an absolute, or were they sometimes painted black? Any, and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 01:36:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Caloroso's PRR's Elmira Branch I had a copy. It walked. I'd like to replace it. Anyone know of any place which might still have a copy available? Please reply off-list. Thanks -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 07:26:11 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 George, The data I have lists the GLa as using the 2D-F1 archbar truck or the 2D-F8 cast steel truck in 1932. Of course the 2D-F1 was dropped from interchange about 9 years later. I haven't really looked at the archbar trucks available, but my favorite 2D-F8 truck is the one produced by Kadee. It is equiped with a cast steel bolster, the likes of which showed up in the mid to late 30's to replace the pressed steel bolster of the original design. The Kadee trucks are far more detailed than any others I have seen, and being sprung, will just about track in two scratched lines. Of course this is my own pure unadultrated biased opinion. Doug Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > I just ordered a Westerfield kit of a GLa hopper. Trucks are not included. > Question is: Would a set of 50-Ton, Andrews be the proper trucks for this > car? And if so, could someone please offer an opinion as to the most > accurate rendition of what's available and who might carry them. Also, a > question concerning the painting of these trucks. Westerfield shows a > finished model of the GLa in their catalog. It's trucks are painted the same > color as the rest of the car. Was this paint scheme an absolute, or were they > sometimes painted black? Any, and all help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > George > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 12:49:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado In a message dated 8/6/99 9:14:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SUVCW ORR writes: > If Athearn does not do the Belpaire fire box version, this would be a > perfect project for someone to make a cast resin firebox which would fit over > or into the Athearn. > > Rich Orr Ok we all seem to be talking about the firebox. Does anyone know about the running gear. Are the Pilot trucks, Drivers and Trailing trucks close to the L1's???? I realize that this information probably won't be available until the locomotives come out, but has anyone gotten any inside information? Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 13:10:10 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 Hello list, I'm recalling this from memory, but Model Railroading's series on PRR hoppers (due out shortly as a book) stated in the GLa chapter that the cars were delivered with arch bar trucks, but later nearly all got the ubiquitous 2DF8 trucks. Now, with some 30000 hoppers in the class, I'm sure some could have had Andrews trucks. Having said that, I'd put Kadee's #517 trucks, which are good representations of the 2DF8 trucks. You could also use Bowser's freight car truck, which is also a representation of the 2DF8 (be careful, as some of Bowser's trucks have leaf and coil springs, making them 2DF12s, and inappropriate for a GLa). My own preference is for sprung trucks; they help compensate for my less than stellar track laying skills; I'd go with the Kadee trucks. The 2DF8 would be appropriate from the 1920s when they were developed from the outwardly similar, but weaker, 2DF4, to when the cars were retired. With their drooping sideframes, they also scream "Pennsy." As far as paint goes, I recall that during the first half of the century it was okay to paint trucks, but by the 60s and 70s, it was illegal to paint them for fear that potential defects such as cracks might be obscured from maintenance men and inspectors. Rightly or wrongly, I've painted the trucks on my PRR hoppers (H21s, H22s, and H31s) to match the body color. Hope this helps! Doug Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I just ordered a Westerfield kit of a GLa hopper. Trucks are not included. > Question is: Would a set of 50-Ton, Andrews be the proper trucks for this > car? And if so, could someone please offer an opinion as to the most > accurate rendition of what's available and who might carry them. Also, a > question concerning the painting of these trucks. Westerfield shows a > finished model of the GLa in their catalog. It's trucks are painted the same > color as the rest of the car. Was this paint scheme an absolute, or were they > sometimes painted black? Any, and all help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > George > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 19:27:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]was Athearn USRA Mike now Bowser L-1 Rich and all, The underframe may work for the L-1 sorta but the boiler doesn't. It has a different taper altogether. There is no real reason to ignore the Bowser L-1 when with the effort of one of our own, Kris Kollar, results in such beautiful replica. He has done an amazing job, I have helped him as much as I could and I am going to encourage him to have his efforts published in Mainline Modeler as a two or three part article. He has been patient and willing to change a couple things and adapt a few and it is an AMAZING piece of work. Now, if you are reading, Kris, I want to publicly ask you if Al Stump and I can have permission to post some of the images to the RPM Webpage so we can all share in them as your efforts take complete shape. Honestly guys, if you would like to see some great work on a truly unsung hero I will send you zipped images of what Kris has done. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 04:11:22 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 Looking back through the mists of 50 years, to the endless strings of mineral trains passing by the front window in Latrobe, PA; trucks and wheels were painted with the same paint as the car bodies. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ---"doug.kisala" wrote: > > Hello list, > > I'm recalling this from memory, but Model Railroading's series on PRR hoppers > (due out shortly as a book) stated in the GLa chapter that the cars were > delivered with arch bar trucks, but later nearly all got the ubiquitous 2DF8 > trucks. Now, with some 30000 hoppers in the class, I'm sure some could have had > Andrews trucks. Having said that, I'd put Kadee's #517 trucks, which are good > representations of the 2DF8 trucks. You could also use Bowser's freight car > truck, which is also a representation of the 2DF8 (be careful, as some of > Bowser's trucks have leaf and coil springs, making them 2DF12s, and inappropriate > for a GLa). My own preference is for sprung trucks; they help compensate for my > less than stellar track laying skills; I'd go with the Kadee trucks. The 2DF8 > would be appropriate from the 1920s when they were developed from the outwardly > similar, but weaker, 2DF4, to when the cars were retired. With their drooping > sideframes, they also scream "Pennsy." > > As far as paint goes, I recall that during the first half of the century it was > okay to paint trucks, but by the 60s and 70s, it was illegal to paint them for > fear that potential defects such as cracks might be obscured from maintenance men > and inspectors. Rightly or wrongly, I've painted the trucks on my PRR hoppers > (H21s, H22s, and H31s) to match the body color. > > Hope this helps! > > Doug > > > Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I just ordered a Westerfield kit of a GLa hopper. Trucks are not included. > > Question is: Would a set of 50-Ton, Andrews be the proper trucks for this > > car? And if so, could someone please offer an opinion as to the most > > accurate rendition of what's available and who might carry them. Also, a > > question concerning the painting of these trucks. Westerfield shows a > > finished model of the GLa in their catalog. It's trucks are painted the same > > color as the rest of the car. Was this paint scheme an absolute, or were they > > sometimes painted black? Any, and all help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > George > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:02:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Division at Altoona - doubled In a message dated 8/7/99 3:17:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Everything is working out...there is only one event conflicting for time, though there are tightly-timed travel issues between a few sessions at different venues. Hope to see you there! >> A point of humor -- it looks to me like the Cincinnati Division will be competing with itself. Our "Modeling Trains of the PRR" exhibit, featuring the killer modeling of my friends, will still be underway at the hotel when I will be starting "Faded Glory; Remembrances of the Pennsy Around Dayton". Either way, you're going to get a Lines West presentation by the Cincinnati Division. OTOH, since the Cincinnati Division motor pool will be tied up with the model exhibit, I may have to bum a ride over to the Museum. It's a bit far to walk. Looking forward to seeing all of you at Altoona. Rick Tipton Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:34:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 In a message dated 8/9/1999 6:19:59 AM Central Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << Looking back through the mists of 50 years, to the endless strings of mineral trains passing by the front window in Latrobe, PA; trucks and wheels were painted with the same paint as the car bodies. >> One of the Herron PRR videos clearly shows a freshly painted hopper with bright freight car color trucks in a train about 1938 (early color film). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:00:53 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 Joe said: >This may be the way the was (someone please correct me if I'm wrong): >N5 - As built, no collision posts. >N5A - As built, Collision posts. ^^^ I know the N5 was built in the 10's and 20's and the N5B was built in the early '40s...so can anyone tell me nore about the N5A? A quick search of the KC roster showed 4 active at the time (50's). How many were built/modified? Major differences from the N5 and N5B other than the collision posts and cabinet mentioned in Joe's post? If the Bowser is really an N5B, I have some reapinting to do ... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:57:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) HA! NS cant even run the railroad that they already own! how do they expect to run a larger system? sean mcd ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:44:27 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) Thought this might be of interest to the list W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net >> NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from >> the Ohio Central System. The line extends from Mingo Junction, OH to >> Columbus, OH. Acquisition of the line would help to ease severe >> congestion. Norfolk Southern officials have surveyed the property and >> have placed it at the top of their priorities list. No further details >> are available at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:58:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 In a message dated 08/09/1999 9:53:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << << Looking back through the mists of 50 years, to the endless strings of mineral trains passing by the front window in Latrobe, PA; trucks and wheels were painted with the same paint as the car bodies. >> One of the Herron PRR videos clearly shows a freshly painted hopper with bright freight car color trucks in a train about 1938 (early color film). >> PRR painting instructions (in part) : Newly constructed cars -- trucks black (actually unpainted natural metal as delivered) . Repainted cars trucks freight car color. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 14:08:49 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 9 Aug, alcoman wrote: > >> NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: > >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in > >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from > >> the Ohio Central System. They suddenly discovered that it's an easy way to relieve congestion; they've been routing trains over it to help move traffic. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:39:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) In a message dated 08/09/1999 12:54:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alcoman@net.bluemoon.net writes: << NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from >> the Ohio Central System. The line extends from Mingo Junction, OH to >> Columbus, OH. Acquisition of the line would help to ease severe >> congestion. Norfolk Southern officials have surveyed the property and >> have placed it at the top of their priorities list. No further details >> are available at this time. >> So it they purchase the Carneige cluster back from Pittsburgh Terminal or get running rights, then they would only need to relay about 50 miles of track to open the Panhandle from Pittsburgh to Columbus. This would also relieve the burgeoning congestion at Island Avenue yard, IA is now serving as an interchange point with CSX, PT, and AV as well as locals and overflow from Conway Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:10:33 EST5EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? The airport busway is now built (not operational yet) over the route from Corliss to Carnegie, so there would be no chance of getting tracks there. The west end of Carnegie is still there via the Pittsburgh Industrial RR, so there could be possibility of running using their tracks, but not the old panhandle route. Bill Nixon In a message dated 08/09/1999 12:54:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alcoman@net.bluemoon.net writes: << NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from >> the Ohio Central System. The line extends from Mingo Junction, OH to >> Columbus, OH. Acquisition of the line would help to ease severe >> congestion. Norfolk Southern officials have surveyed the property and >> have placed it at the top of their priorities list. No further details >> are available at this time. >> SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: So it they purchase the Carneige cluster back from Pittsburgh Terminal or get running rights, then they would only need to relay about 50 miles of track to open the Panhandle from Pittsburgh to Columbus. This would also relieve the burgeoning congestion at Island Avenue yard, IA is now serving as an interchange point with CSX, PT, and AV as well as locals and overflow from Conway Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) From: Fred G Rea Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 16:39:34 EDT As I understand it OC does not own it, the State of Ohio does. OC may own the old W&LE Brewster to Zanesville line but not the panhandle. Frankly, I think OC has doe a wonderful job of turning it into to a well run busy RR, why give it to NS. Wait, haven't we heard that before? Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 13:56:40 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] I suppose it depends on the amount of differences between the GN and the PRR locos and how Athearn might be willing to handle tose so they would not be so visible. I don't have much technical information on the GN locos myself, so can't speak with any accuracy as to how something like that could be achieved. Who know what Athearn might try (?). I haven't heard anything from them on this loco mechanism's possible future uses, so we'll just have to wait and see. Chuck Friedlein padraice@megsinet.net wrote: > Chuck Friedlein mentioned GN and PRR having Belpaire boilered Mikados as a possible justification for Athearn doing something for Pennsy. True, but neither the designs of any of the locomotives, or even shape of the Belpaire fireboxes were in common between the two roads. Even the USRA Mikados were different. The Pennsy had lights, GN had heavys. Nice try. > > I believe the only locomotives in common between the two companies were the electrics the Pennsy bought from GN, and some diesels. > Pat Egan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 14:59:37 -0500 (CDT) From: padraice@megsinet.net Subject: [PRR] Chuck Friedlein mentioned GN and PRR having Belpaire boilered Mikados as a possible justification for Athearn doing something for Pennsy. True, but neither the designs of any of the locomotives, or even shape of the Belpaire fireboxes were in common between the two roads. Even the USRA Mikados were different. The Pennsy had lights, GN had heavys. Nice try. I believe the only locomotives in common between the two companies were the electrics the Pennsy bought from GN, and some diesels. Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rla0220@enter.net Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:26:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/09/99 In ref. to the John Bull: Does it run on both Sat. and Sun? And at what times? Just might venture out for the day. Thank you. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:27:52 -0400 (EDT) alcoman sends along: > > >> NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: > >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in > >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from > >> the Ohio Central System. The line extends from Mingo Junction, OH to > >> Columbus, OH. Acquisition of the line would help to ease severe > >> congestion. Norfolk Southern officials have surveyed the property and > >> have placed it at the top of their priorities list. No further details > >> are available at this time. Hmm ... Next they'll be buying ... the rest of the Fort Wayne they gave up to CSX???? :-) or will they reinstall the remainder of the Panhandle main to Chicago instead??? Speaking of which, are there any list.members in the Canton - Massillon - Mansfield - Crestline area? Given that the old Fort Wayne is now split in half, ownership- wise, what has happened to traffic? Has traffic picked up on the CSX half, west of Crestline? Has NS traffic on the eastern half of it (excluding east of Alliance, of course) plummeted? Or is NS running trains out to Bucyrus, then up onto their ex-PRR Sandusky line? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 18:52:14 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Bowser T1 Assembly Quirks Hello list, I've been assembling my Bowser T1 at a slow but steady pace, and I've discovered some quirks along the way. They are minor, and the kit has been very fun, but I thought I'd pass them along. I needed several washers between my Alco Products repower kits and the frames to get decent gear mesh. The good news is that with the Alco Products kits, the engine will run smoothly on a 22" radius curve. Before you take me to task for doiing this, I live in a dorm, and this is the largest curve I can shoehorn into my room; my dream layout has 30" curves sketched in (now, I just need to find an unused basketball court to build it). The mechanism went together quite well; there wasn't much flash. I did end up bending the crosshead guides outward a bit to be sure they cleared the main rods. Once I had both front and rear engines running smoothly, I dissassembled them, painted them, and after reassembly, put a bit of super glue in each crankpin screw hole; it keeps things from vibrating loose. In general, test fit detail parts in their holes; sometimes the holes are too small. There are a total of eight long handrail posts, part number 90481, four used on each side. Drill out these holes to accomodate the posts, as tapping them in will bend these lost wax castings. I got lucky, and only bent mine a little, and I could still pull it out to straighten in. Once I got these tricky little guys in place, I super glued them to be secure. The electrical junction boxes, part number 90367 are challenging to drill out; proceed with caution, oil, and care. I chose to substitute .060 styrene, drilled out to accomodate the .015 wire I used for handrails; it's not quite as accurate, but it's a lot more forgiving. You could also use Cary p/n 13-127, but I've not worked with them. I have worked with the Cal Scale junction boxes, p/n 190-383, and they're quite easy to clean out and use. I didn't have enought .062 wire to pipe the firebox sides with, but I got lucky and found some that was close enough in my supplies; lay in some extra .062 wire before you start. Also, be prepared to ream out the 190-6306 pipe holders; they're a bit too tight for the .062 wire as they come from the box. Don't install the tender details until after you've painted the tender deck; I'm now facing some very painstaking work with a brush to fix my overeagerness. I wanted to add a Cal Scale water scoop set, p/n 190-2004, to my tender, and I cut three thicknesses of .060 styrene to the rough shape of a center sill and glued them together to make a mounting pad for the scoop. I used goo to secure the scoop, actuator, and tank to the tender underframe. I'd suggest using .015 wire for the handrails and grab irons. Bowser's holes are a little too tight for the .020 wire they supply, but are perfect for the smaller size. I've built up a pad from about a dozen thicknesses of .060 styrene to add a working front coupler, though with the way this thing pulls, any need for doubleheading is purely cosmetic. My engine is now ready for paint (I'm still debating between some interpretation of DGLE or Polly Scale's grimy black because details show up well with the grimy black, compensating for the inaccuracy of the color, at least in my eyes). Slipping, with both of the Alco Products can motors at full bore, the engine draws only 1 amp; I lacked the cold-heartedness necessary to stall her and measure the amp draw there. Besides, unlike her prototypes, she was running consistently well. Bowser makes a really nice kit; most of the challenges I've faced have been minor. The Alco Products can motors are very straightforward, and I recommend them, too. I really liked not having to drill all the holes for the detail parts. I'm planning on building their deluxe K4s or L1s (alas, I already have an I1sa) next; not drilling holes in zinc is definitely worth the money to me. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:37:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 George & folks, Incidental to your question regarding Crown trucks, EB Models makes a nicely sprung version available in black, tuscan or "boxcar" red (the boxcar color is a nice shade of oxide) and they are fine rollers, being an updated version of the old Lindbergs. Prices are not bad, and the trucks are available with plastic, brass or nickel-silver wheels. you might check them out. Seems to me the fella at Park Varieties sells them, and he's on this list, or at least was. Even if you don't want them for Pennsy use, they're a nice truck, FWIW. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 23:30:18 -0500 According to The Keystone for December 1973, there were four N5A's built, modified from N5's in 1937. They differed from the N5 by having a Duryea cushion underframe. No other differences were noted. All N5B's were constucted new. No mention is made in the article of collision posts. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:23:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Division at Altoona - doubled > OTOH, since the Cincinnati Division motor pool will be tied up with the model > exhibit, I may have to bum a ride over to the Museum. It's a bit far to walk. I don't think that's going to be problem. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:27:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] 5300 and 5400 K4's on Columbus and Cincinnati Divisions Gize, At Summerail on Saturday, I got the chance to root through Pennsy prints at the Big Four Graphics table (Jay Williams, assisted that day by Bill Nixon). I started to notice that the passenger shots west of Columbus (mostly the work of Richard Acton, Sr.) featured a lot of K4s locomotives between 5300 and 5499. Perhaps I'm sensitized because Jack Fravert's not-yet-auctioned K4 keystone is 5365, but it seemed like a lot of similar-numbered engines in one place. Was this just chance, or were these K4's assigned to our area in batches? Anybody know the story? BTW, at least one of Richard's photos showed doubleheaded K4s on a passenger train. This brings to mind the admonition of an old engineer who ran out of Columbus pre-WWII: "that line west of Xenia had almost no passing sidings. And the ones it had were short. If you had two K4's and 16 cars or less, you knew you could fit in what few sidings were there. And if you had 18 cars, you knew you were in trouble". Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:27:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Logansport, Indiana In a message dated 7/30/99 11:36:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << Dear PRR gang: I am looking for a map of the Logansport area. I have misplaced my own copy which was a PRR map showing the yards, the tracks, and the interlocking towers. Specifically, the map was drafted by the PRR circa 1928 and I believe it was to scale. I think that this map was part of article or a book but I don't know for sure. Has anyone else seen this type map and if so, where? I think that I still have it but I must of hid it from myself :-)~ Before anyone mentions it, I looked on Mark Bej's webpage. He does have maps if the Logansport area along with the yards. However, these maps are schematic sketches and are not the one that I am looking for. The map that I am looking for was a PRR drawing (to scale) of the Logansport area showing the individual tracks, turnouts, yards, etc. i believe the date of the drawing was in the 1920's. Any info. that you can provide I would greatly apprecipate it! Within a few weeks, I am laying down track for my HO scale layout which includes the "Van" interlocking in Logansport. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana P.S.: Mark Bej's website is a great online source for PRR Interlocking diagrams and the 1959 PRR freight schedules. >> Ted, I've been out of town a lot, but your message caught my eye -- somewhere (Fall 81 Rails Northeast) there was reproduced a two-page "Railroad Map of Logansport, Ind." from the "Office of Chief Engineer, P.R.R., Phila. Pa. April 1941". I know this because I can find a Xerox of it -- but the original article is packed away in my mags. This is the same map that I burned a lot of bandwidth describing to Mark Bej some months back. It is to scale, has industrial spurs, some major buildings, and all interlockings shown. The yard tracks as shown are accurate track counts and layouts from everything else I've been able to determine. It shows most of yard A, RACE, all of yard B and the shops area, VAN, the east throat of Yard C, and off to the north Yard X and FERN. It also shows the collateral Wabash line and its stations. An inset shows CLYMERS south on the Vandalia line to Frankfort. It's a lot of detail for a couple of 8.5x11 sheets, and answered a lot of my questions. Since I still don't have a scanner, and since you're going to want just as high quality a copy as possible, I suggest you hold out for a good hardcopy of the RNE pages, from me or someone else. If you need a copy of our "Logansport Chronicles" drivel, I can send that to you electronically. BTW, I wish someone could do for Frankfort what this map does for Logansport. I wasn't a frequent visitor there either, and would love to know more about the Pennsy and other railroads there. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:19:59 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this list... Barry, I just went to the onelist website (www.onelist.com) and using my id, logged in. A search for "PRR" as an interest group yielded several lists but none were PRR-FAX. I joined the one which claims to be a moderated list on PRR history, and received a welcome message with the banner "[PRR]". This is the same banner that Jerry uses in PRR-Talk. I am glad to have found this new list, but is it the "PRR-FAX" you spoke of? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:58:12 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) That NS would respond to congestion by buying new trackage is indicative of its abysmally clueless approach to railroading in the Northeast. What is needed is competent management, pure and simple. And that isn't possible, because most (if not all) of the competent, experienced people needed to handle this mess in traffic, motive power, personnel relations, and customer service were either moved south at lower pay or left for CSX. Before NS buys more track, it needs to get the chaw of 'baccy outten its collective mouth, kick the coon dogs off the front porches of its engines, and figure out how to get crews out to all the dead trains between Altoona and Harrisburg! Pardon my mostly off-topic rant, but I, for one, am enraged by the Wreck of the Penn Central, Pt. Deaux that I witness at the foot of my street every day. As a native Pennsylvanian, I am offended by NS's plantation mentality in dealing with employees and its cavalier approach to assuming control of a complex transportation system. I used to respect the NS as a well-managed, fiscally conservative common carrier. No more. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:47:39 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Frankfort & Other stuff Rick & Group: Let me second the request for clarity at Frankfort. I've been there a couple of times and have only a rough idea. Let me zero in on something about Frankfort that has intrigued me for some time, now. Obviously, this was a point on a former Vandalia branch line (TH&L) long before it became--in 1918--a through Indianapolis & points south to Chicago main. The opening of the I&F brought with it a number of changes to the Frankfort layout, most important of which was a brand new passenger station. As most know who have visited, the last passenger station in use was a converted freight depot, now part of a lumber and hardware store. But a much newer facility was located several blocks south, I believe, roughly where the PRR crossed the primary east-west street downtown. I only know of this station because I stopped in at the local library and stumbled across a faded old b&w photo in a scrapbook there. Does anyone have further info and/or a photograph of the station? As I recall, it was a modern, utilitarian design. Nothing fancy, but not a simple small-town depot either. Studying old O.G.s, it appears that this new Frankfort station was intended to be a transfer point between trains to and from Chicago, and those serving Logansport and points north to South Bend. This eliminated the need for the lengthy backup move from Van into the downtown Logansport (5th Street or Logansport Div. station). It was also the point where connection was made to the former Vandalia branch to Terre Haute, a gas-electric car run in its last days. At some point well before WWII, this "new" Frankfort station was eliminated, possibly demolished accidentally (a wreck?) and the former freight depot converted to take its place. Frankfort also ceased to be an important transfer point, either as a cause or a result of the change. Does anyone know for certain? As for your question, Rick: no, I have had no response to my Peoria branch query, which means I will have to be vague in my article--whenever I get to it. But may I request this "Logansport Chronicles" thing you mentioned earlier? I have tramped around L-port enough to be curious. And here's one further question (as long as were at it): On one of my visits I managed to get a look at the old PRR shops from the east side and noticed the old brick or stone buildings along one edge of the property. Are these rather ancient-looking structures remnants of the original Chicago & Great Eastern shops of 1867? Thanks for your time and efforts, all of you. Peace. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:55:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this list... From: "Jerry Britton" > I just went to the onelist website (www.onelist.com) and using my id, > logged in. A search for "PRR" as an interest group yielded several lists > but none were PRR-FAX. I joined the one which claims to be a moderated > list on PRR history, and received a welcome message with the banner > "[PRR]". This is the same banner that Jerry uses in PRR-Talk. > > I am glad to have found this new list, but is it the "PRR-FAX" you spoke > of? The "other" PRR list, as well as another moderated list on Signalling, were both created when Bill Strassner left PRR-Talk. If you will recall, Bill and Mark Bej were really going at each other. Bill was flinging adjectives at Mark for "speculating" on some matters and not providing references to facts. Mark responded that all material on PRR-Talk was one of historical opinion, which I agree with, since the company has been gone for over 30 years. There are few PRR ex-employees on the list, that I know of, and some seem to expect us to take their word for it...without documentation, because they worked there. That has some creedence, but not enough. On moderation of the list...who is qualified? I am not, for sure! Because Bill didn't like being asked to "back down", he unsubscribed and started his own lists. I'm not sure what the volume is on these lists. I know initally (about two months ago) one PRR-Talk member who had joined indicated that there was maybe a post or two a day...sometimes days would go by without any messages. This may have changed. Also, Mark reported that his attempt to join the list but was refused, contrary to OneList's charter that they are not allowed to do this on a public list. Another interesting fact is that some of the folks who argued against "advertising" in the footers of "PRR-Talk" posts moved to the OneList lists. Yet OneList does the same thing AND they sell their subscription lists (as documented in several magazines over the past year or so). Want SPAM? Join a OneList list! Finally, I hope there is not a mass intent to "jump ship" from "PRR-Talk". I made some posts in bad taste, to which I have admitted publicly, and I want to return things to "business as usual" -- which has seemed to be the case for the past several days. I can share with you that the number of subscribers has not been reduced since the recent "flame war", other than the half a dozen or so accounts (out of 340+) that are now bouncing with the error "unknown user" (which just means the person changed ISP's). I certainly hope all of you will remain active on "PRR-Talk". I can only offer to you an additional apology for my actions last week if you were negatively affected by it. Thank you. P.S. If there is substantial interest in changing the format (e.g. moderation, allowable subject matter, etc.) of "PRR-Talk", let me know publicly or privately. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:52:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] CORRECTION - Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this From: "Jerry Britton" > I just went to the onelist website (www.onelist.com) and using my id, > logged in. A search for "PRR" as an interest group yielded several lists > but none were PRR-FAX. I joined the one which claims to be a moderated > list on PRR history, and received a welcome message with the banner > "[PRR]". This is the same banner that Jerry uses in PRR-Talk. > > I am glad to have found this new list, but is it the "PRR-FAX" you spoke > of? Correcting my original post, the new list is "PRR", not "PRR-FAX", and it was just created by former PRR-Talk subscriber Bill Strassner. I had quoted that he started two lists when he left PRR-Talk a few months ago. This was not one of the two. This one was just started on 8/7/99, so I have learned from my contacts at OneList. Again, I hope you will all stick around PRR-Talk and give me a chance to redeem myself. I would like to make a few comments to compare and contrast the two lists: * Bill is high on "moderation". I really cannot see how moderation can work with subject matter of historical nature. If you have an idea, let me know. I will entertain all suggestion. * Bill also promotes sticking to the subject matter. I just checked the PRR-Talk archive and found that on numerous occasions he made posts about computer viruses! * Bill is also high on civility, but I think you ought to read all of the tongue-in-cheek inuendos describing his list on OneList. Quite entertaining! Also, check out the flames at Mark Bej in the PRR-Talk archives. This is not intended to start a flame war. In fact, such responses will be ignored for the good of this list. However, I needed to correct my previous post, still being circulated, as I was misinformed and thought this list was the one he started several months ago. I also wanted to point out, by the preceding paragraph, that not all that Bill claims is as factual as he'd like you to believe. Enough said. Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] CORRECTION - Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:35:55 -0400 (EDT) > Correcting my original post, the new list is "PRR", not "PRR-FAX", and it > was just created by former PRR-Talk subscriber Bill Strassner. I had quoted > that he started two lists when he left PRR-Talk a few months ago. This was > not one of the two. This one was just started on 8/7/99, so I have learned > from my contacts at OneList. Bill _did_ in fact ... oops, I should say, I think it was he ... start 2 lists up front. One was Railway Signaling, the other was called something like NE-Rails-and-Signals. The PRR one must be new. > * Bill is also high on civility, but I think you ought to read all of the > tongue-in-cheek inuendos describing his list on OneList. Quite entertaining! > Also, check out the flames at Mark Bej in the PRR-Talk archives. Careful there ... "tongue in cheek" generally means sarcastic, but sarcastically _humorous_. But then again, I'm no PhD in English. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:14:54 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Friendship and fealty Oh brother, am I gonna get it now... posting the same message to competing lists. As a newcomer to both (as well as a cyber-novice--is that correct?), I have got to tell you, this has been quite a ride so far. I came through the door just as the prr-talkers were firing at each other over scheduling at the convention. I ducked and ran for the sidelines. Then, no sooner do I find a seat in the onelist org than a competitive war seems imminent between the two lists. Hey, look, I love you all. Honest. But there is a selfish reason I'm on line with you: I'm a Pennsylvania Railroad fan, a "something-of-a-railroad-historian" type of guy with an abiding interest in the home road; a member of PRRT&HS for close to 15 years with a whole bunch of ex-PRR people in my family tree. And I'll bet most of the rest of you could claim much the same. Except for modeling. I don't do it because I: (A.) Don't have the time, and (B.) Spend all my spare cash on photocopying costs as I work my way through libraries great and small. The point is, I'm here because we share something: the railroad. (And I have to tell you: the part I like best is that I have met some pretty cool people over the past ten years as I've researched Lines West.) Now, perhaps you think this is going to be a "why can't we all get along" sermon. Nope; I would not presume such authority or assume such a moral position. After all, we obviously have some differences of opinion. Fine by me; I enjoy a good debate. However, I do expect us to be civil to one another, to abide by the rules of good scholarship, and to extend the courtesies of mutual friendship. The last thing I need or want is to have to choose sides. Don't even try to make me. If you do, I'll... I'll... by golly, I'll start another PRR list. Then we can have three times the opportunity to share the Pennsylvania. :-) Peace, brothers. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:12:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] The bridges of Conemaugh Dam? So, with the ongoing drought, I'm considering (not this week when I'm on-call for work) going for a walk back into the Conemaugh Dam impound area and taking a look at the surviving stone arch spans from the alignment of the Conemaugh Division before the dam was built. From maps and scouting it appears I can get in along the southern edge of the "lake" in public land at one spot (there are no signs warning against trespassing) and another spot at the end of a road leading to the Westinghouse nuclear fuels plant (where I haven't yet checked for warnings). Anyone done this, have any suggestions, or assuming I can come up with a "when" be interested in joining me? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:25:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon From: "Jerry Britton" Over the past few hours I have received numerous e-mails containing feedback about the "PRR-Talk" list. Much has been positive, and some has been negative. I welcome both, as I said I would. I also said that I would consider all suggestions. To demonstrate that I have done this in the past, please consider that: * Some folks didn't like ads in the footers of posts. They were removed many months ago. (E-mail signatures don't count!) * Some folks didn't like the eBayWatch daily postings. They were removed after only a week or so. * Folks wanted a prefix added to message subjects for easier sorting in their e-mail software. The "[PRR]" prefix was added (over a year ago). So, I do respond. And I welcome your continued constructive criticism. Again, if you want moderation, we can give it a try. However, I reiterate that I think it is very hard to moderate historical accuracy on a company that has been defunct for 30 years. There are some documents out there, which help, but there is still a great deal of conjecture inherent to the topic. Example: How did the "big engine" get to the World's Fair? Unless you've got the actual order in hand, which we'd all like to see, all we can do is "project" the possibilities. (That was an actual discussion about 18 months ago!) As has been the case, please include references with facts, and point out when something is an opinion or conjecture. Also note the "TANGENT" that I placed in my subject line. This, or "TAN", is a widely used notation to indicate that the post is off-topic, but still relevant to list subscribers. Thank you...from your "in the doghouse" listmaster! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:10:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) Vagel & folks, Didn't the N&W do this same thing to the Wabash 35 years ago? Talk about a bumpkin tracking mud into the living room, and then using a Corvette to haul bricks, so to speak. Some folks just got no class. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:20:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION (AGAIN) In a message dated 8/2/99 8:09:32 PM EST, VVA249@aol.com writes: THERE WERE "NO TAKERS" ON THIS QUESTION LAST WEEK - ANYONE CARE TO COMMENT? << Re: Using an L-1 as a snapper on passenger trains, I believe there was a period when this was commonly done in Emporium PA up the hill to Keating Summit, Bill Bigler >> It was my impression that the term "Snapper" on the PRR referred to the use of a Yard Engine to start a heavy train, and would therefore, always be on the rear end. A "Snapper" would be used only within the Yard Limits - with no extra pay to the crew. It's my impression that the situation described above - using an extra engine up the hill - would be called a "Helper" - regardless of its position on the train, and once the extra engine crossed the Yard Limits the crew would be entitled to extra pay. COMMENTS? Dick Ross Cleveland, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:04:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this list... In a message dated 8/10/1999 10:16:45 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << There are few PRR ex-employees on the list, that I know of, and some seem to expect us to take their word for it...without documentation, because they worked there. That has some creedence, but not enough. >> Without creating a blanket condemnation and starting a flame war, of the two ex-PRR employees I talked to in the last few years, one criticized my long distance tender as being inaccurate behind an M1 and the other asked me if the 3678 streamlined K4 ever pulled the Broadway Limited (to his credit, he admitted he did not know). Point being that employees are not the most observant creatures to rely on for history. Rather than picking on ex-PRR employees, I will pick on myself. I worked for several years at transformer plants of Allis-Chalmers and yet never observed the rail operations much and am a lousy reference source for the great rail traffic such a plant generates. I kick myself every day for not railfanning when I had the greatest opportunity to do so. But I was working for a living and supporting a family. PRR employees had that, not railfanning, as their first priority. Thanks for the exceptions, like Bill Volkmer. On the LDSIG list (including OPSIG) we are fortunate to have some real railroaders active who help the contemporary modelers immensely. As far as the two lists are concerned, I look for subjects and read those I am interested in and delete the rest. Always happy to have any source. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:57:24 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:25:26 -0400 > Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > * Some folks didn't like ads in the footers of posts. They were > removed many months ago. (E-mail signatures don't count!) > > * Some folks didn't like the eBayWatch daily postings. They were > removed after only a week or so. > > * Folks wanted a prefix added to message subjects for easier > sorting in their e-mail software. The "[PRR]" prefix was added > (over a year ago). This is all true and were very good changes in my estimation. Thank you. :-) > Again, if you want moderation, we can give it a try. However, I >reiterate that I think it is very hard to moderate historical >accuracy on a company that has been defunct for 30 years. It isn't just that. To me, it is a matter of someone having to watch or worse yet, screen every post to a list like this. Traffic slows and the timelyness of posts can be lost. Indeed, some posts might be lost completely at the discresion of the moderator. That is a two edged sword. I would suggest that we not do that. :-) Now, I was unsubscribed while attending a wedding in Cleveland last weekend and was off for several days. It sounds like I missed a good fire-fight. Terrible thing! But let's not go over it again. What I missed, I missed. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:35:40 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Hi Folks.... Ok...with all of the talk we had recently about voltage changes and running a GG-1 again...I'd thought i'd pass this idea to the group. I was rereading the March 1999 issue of Trains and noticed the article about the West Chester Railroad (pages 84 and 85). They are a tourist road that runs on seven miles of the former PRR West Chester branch that is currently owned by SEPTA. SEPTA only uses the branch as far as Elwyn.(about halfway out). It states that the cantenary is almost completely intact and is de-energized. This line was electrified in 1928 for commuter service. They currently run a Geep painted in Pennsy colors. Ok i'll say this...I don't know what kinda voltage SEPTA uses for this branch or even if there is a local sub-station for it. (Heck i don't know a Amp from a Gigawatt) and I don't know if there is even a G that could be made to run in a short time for this line. Also i have no idea of what kind of weight restrictions there might be (remember GG-1s weigh over 230 tons) either. But although you could'nt do any 80 MPH NEC speeds and even though this line is only 7 Miles long (similar to Strasburg) It might be a place to run a G. You could run a unmodified G there and perhaps (i said perhaps) draw enough folks to ride trains behind the GG-1 with the future goal of setting aside (assuming a profit), funds a rebuild for a G that could be run on the NEC or Harrisburg main. You would of course have to work out something with SEPTA, The WCRR and who ever would have a G to run on it. It just another of my goofy ideas...but its not too far fetched. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:49:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re:DN TOWER Does anyone have information as to when DN Tower was built in Verona, PA. It was located on the Allegheny Branch and possibly could date back to the Allegheny Valley Railroad days. A photo in Verona's Centennial album dated "from the early 1900's" indicates DN existed at least that early. Could it have been built in the late 1800's? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Onelist lists and spam, plus a tiny on-topic Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:33:35 -0400 ****DANGER - OFF TOPIC POST!!**** (But it's alright 'cause the moderator started it) ;-) Hi All! Just a question about a statement that Jerry (I believe) made about Onelist selling their mailing lists. As a moderator of a large (430+) list on Onelist (The Casting List), I was assured to the Nth degree that under no circumstances would Onelist sell their e-mail addresses or tolerate spam. I personally have never received any unusual volume of spam on the e-mail address that I use for the list (the miracle castings address), although my hotmail address, which I only use for personal correspondence and don't post to any newgroups with, has been getting majorly whacked with spam in the last month or so. Is Onelist really doing this??? If so, I may have to go postal on these guys, as they were downright rabid about any moderator or list member sending unsolicited e-mail to anyone! Has anyone else on this list with a Onelist membership gotten a large volume of spam lately? Pat (off-topic) Lawless And just to pull this back towards on-topic a bit, Jerry, I don't think you should have to moderate this list. People know the rules, and if they step out of line and don't have the courtesy to apologize, they can always be drop-kicked into the middle of next week. I've done it with the casting list, and received total support for doing so. Why should you have to do the extra work to supervise a bunch of adults? There are no guarantees that anything anyone says on this list is bible true. It's all opinion, conjecture, or best-recollection, unless there's hard documentation. But even documentation can lie. I'm currently looking at a plan on my wall, direct from Sikorsky, of the Turbotrain. Factory plans! And it's wrong! The windows are out to lunch; they never made it that way. So the best anyone here can do is state their opinion, and why they have it. Anyone else can either take it at face value, or not. It's that simple. No guarantees or implied warranties of any kind here! Regards, Pat (slightly less off-topic) Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: RE: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:07:20 -0400 One difference between the N5, N5A, and the N5B was the N5B had a steel roof walk and end platforms like the N5C. Ed Martin described these differences in his Mainline Modelers article of a couple of years ago. You can use the Bowser roof walk castings from their N5C to simulate the steel ones of the N5B. You need to splice two sets together for the N5B as the cupola of the N5C is much longer than that of the N5B. I recently completed the conversion according to Ed's article. He also discusses the beefing-up of the Bowser cast-on collision bars Bud Kaiser Cherry Hill NJ Steve wrote: According to The Keystone for December 1973, there were four N5A's built, modified from N5's in 1937. They differed from the N5 by having a Duryea cushion underframe. No other differences were noted. All N5B's were constucted new. No mention is made in the article of collision posts. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION (AGAIN) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:58:58 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of VVA249@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 4:20 PM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION (AGAIN) Dick, It was a good question at the time and still is. I'm surprised no one attempted an answer. I had always ASSumed that snapper was a slang term applied to all helper operations. However, you may have a good point. I tried to figure out where I could go to get the right answer but frankly came up short. I do have enginemen's time logs from the E&A Division where they list type of service on which used during their tour. It typically states, freight, yard, local and passenger. However I have seen and made notes from one engineman's book where he occasionally entered "snapper" which meant he spent his 8 hour tour pushing. This would certainly go beyond just a yard job pushing someone out of a yard. His destinations on and off duty are the same (Wheatland) but that doesn't prove they just stayed in the yard. Typically the helpers at Wheatland pushed westbound coal and heavy merchandise trains up the Sharpsville/Transfer hill and then came back to Wheatland to do it again. A 1963 PRR system straight line diagram I have lists all helper locations as "Helper Service." A 1941 PRR document I have regarding the construction of two new 80 car relay tracks at Dock Jct. Yard discusses the 80 car ore trains dispatched to the E&P requiring "one puller and two helper engines." Also 1960s PRR tonnage rating charts I have refer to "Helper". Where does all of this lead? I surmise snapper was a slang term - and people have been known to apply terms incorrectly. So I guess it leaves us not to much further ahead. Perhaps someone else will contribute more, factual information. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Request for info: South Fork & Cresson Yard Plans Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:47:00 -0400 I am starting to think about my layout plan, which will include "selectively compressed" versions of South Fork (PA) and Cresson yards, and the South Fork Secondary. The goal is to have an operationally-based design. I'm looking for information on how the yards were operated back in the early 60's. Does anyone know where I can find information on the operations; or perhaps someone who used to work there, preferably as a yard master? Any help would be greatly appreciated! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:01:43 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: A question of color Greetings to the group: Does anyone know when "Tuscan Red" was adopted as the standard passenger car color on the Pennsylvania System? Or, failing that, what is the earliest date of a reference to the use of the color? This is a curiosity question for me; not one of crucial importance, but with possibly interesting ramifications depending on the date. Regards, Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:00:28 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Correct me if I'm wrong - but the West Chester branch was a branch line, therefore it is more than likely that it is limited by degree of curvature more than weight factor. I can't find any reference to a G or any other motor, going to West Chester ( I'll admit to only checking "Under Pennsy Wires" and "When the Steam Railroads Electrified", but can't remember any mention anywhere else either - I remember a picture of an MP54 at the West Chester Station but can't remember where it is). Next would be not only getting the 25 Hz but the insurance for the high voltage transmission lines as well as the folks needed to re - energize everything. Next, your G is going to need - at best oil (dialectic bath stuff) for the PCB contaminated stuff that was removed (maybe a complete remedial job for the removal of all contaminants) - at worst a new transformer. Since they had PCB's in them and where going out of service, more then likely they where removed. Why clean them when you could burn them down to remove the PCB's. I have a picture somewhere of E44 and E33's at Rutherford sans transformers. I, like all the other PRR juice fans, would love to see a GG1 run again and again. The trouble will be the railroad running it. Since all currently energized lines that a GG1 could likely run on is under the jurisdiction of a commuter authority or Amtrak, they would require the locomotive to have 60 Hz capability and insurance, insurance, insurance. Just my thoughts on the full size thing - I do plan to run mine, when I get the layout built - in a year or so... Cos bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hi Folks.... > > Ok...with all of the talk we had recently about voltage changes and > running a GG-1 again...I'd thought i'd pass this idea to the group. > I was rereading the March 1999 issue of Trains and noticed the article > about the West Chester Railroad (pages 84 and 85). They are a tourist > road that runs on seven miles of the former PRR West Chester branch > that is currently owned by SEPTA. SEPTA only uses the branch > as far as Elwyn.(about halfway out). It states that the cantenary > is almost completely intact and is de-energized. This line was > electrified in 1928 for commuter service. They currently run > a Geep painted in Pennsy colors. > > Ok i'll say this...I don't know what kinda voltage SEPTA uses for this > branch or even if there is a local sub-station for it. > (Heck i don't know a Amp from a Gigawatt) and I don't > know if there is even a G that could be made to run in a short time > for this line. Also i have no idea of what kind of weight > restrictions there might be (remember GG-1s weigh over 230 tons) > either. But although you could'nt do any 80 MPH NEC speeds and > even though this line is only 7 Miles long (similar to Strasburg) > It might be a place to run a G. You could run a unmodified G there > and perhaps (i said perhaps) draw enough folks to ride trains behind > the GG-1 with the future goal of setting aside (assuming a profit), > funds a rebuild for a G that could be run on the NEC or Harrisburg > main. You would of course have to work out something with SEPTA, > The WCRR and who ever would have a G to run on it. > > It just another of my goofy ideas...but its not too far fetched. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Brick depot trim colors From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:05:55 EDT I am working on a brick depot of "medium" size and wondering what the correct trim color would be for the late 1950's era. I have in mind something like my vague memories of Canton Ohio on the Ft Wayne. That is, larger than a typical small town depot like Dennison Ohio but much smaller than the biggies (30th St, Pittsburgh etc). The building is being freelanced using DPM panels but I would like to have a reasonable color for the window and door frames. Thanks, Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:29:07 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon Jerry and all, I must add my support for an un-moderated discussion on this list. From my participation on this and the EBT-List owned and run by Chris Coleman, the best way to ensure a full discussion of issues open to interpretation and/or analysis about RR companies whose time is long past ... and societies dedicated to perserving their memories ... is to encourage open discussion between all subscribers. If things get personal, the list owner can intervene and, if necessay, sanction recalcitrants who refuse to "be civil." I have both experienced this discipline and benefited from such oversite, to my embarassment and edification. I personally received a few back-channels from the person who set up the "other" lists under discussion during the controversy over Mark's supposed waging of culture wars against real live "employes". When I answered that a) I was a friend of Mark's and, b) my interest in PRR signaling did not extend beyond working HO-scale semaphores to man-made neural paths and memorizing interlocking plans, I heard no more. That, as far as I was concerned, was fine. As a hopeful future professor of history, I believe we who claim to be interested in its accuracy where the Pennsy is concerned should applaud and encourage any and all venues for discussion of things Pennsy. Experience shows that oral history is, invariably, falable, especially where the far-flung P-Co is concerned ... Standard Railroad, indeed! I do not see these lists' coexistence as necessarily competitive; that will be up to the respective list owners and their subscribers. The only goal should be (and, in my observation, has been) to seek the historical truth. If one "side" of the other cannot accept the possibility of the opposing argument as eventual truth, the onus is on them. So, good job, Jerry and best wishes to other UNMODERATED PRR-related lists. At the end of the day, it's the "way it really was" that matters, no matter who comes up with it. We won't get there with one or two "soothsayers" calling the shots. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh CMU Dept. of History ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:42:00 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 > > Steve wrote: > > According to The Keystone for December 1973, there were four N5A's built, > modified from N5's in 1937. They differed from the N5 by having a Duryea > cushion underframe. No other differences were noted. Did these underframes result in the extended end platforms like on the N5B's or where those only for the collision posts? Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:42:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Onelist lists and spam, plus a i moderate the CR-NS modelers list on onelist, and the only spam i get comes from other AOL members. so i highly doubt onelst is selling member names to spammers. sorry about the off-topicness of this post sean mcdonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:26:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Frankfort IN on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/10/99 6:52:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cil36@link2000.net writes: << Rick, I have a track chart of the Crawfordsville branch but only shows part of Frankfort. Steve Long >> Steve, My copy of the 1968 track charts shows Frankfort as viewed from the I&F side, as viewed from the Terre Haute side, and again as a chart of local industrial sidings. Each has slightly different detail on the Monon crossing, the crossing of the NKP/LE&W track, and the crossing of the NKP/Clover Leaf district. With their differences, the diagrams further underline the need for a good map and maybe some words and music about everybody's operations in Frankfort. Examples: what were Frankfort's leading industries? Where were the yards? The stations? The engine houses? How many switch jobs worked Frankfort on each railroad? Where was each road dispatched from? And did passenger service once offer decent connections at Frankfort? (Shall I dream on?) As the s.f. fans like to say, "The Truth is Out There Somewhere". Rick Tipton Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: A question of color Date: Wed, 11 Aug 99 06:36:02 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/10/99 11:01 PM, Richard Wallis (rwallis1@earthlink.net) wrote: >Does anyone know when "Tuscan Red" was adopted as the standard passenger >car color on the Pennsylvania System? Or, failing that, what is the >earliest date of a reference to the use of the color? > >This is a curiosity question for me; not one of crucial importance, but >with possibly interesting ramifications depending on the date. Pretty sure this doesn't help you, but the diesels started in Tuscan in 1952. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Onelist lists and spam Date: Wed, 11 Aug 99 06:34:49 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/10/99 10:33 PM, Miracle Castings Inc. (miracle-castings@on.aibn.com) wrote: >Hi All! Just a question about a statement that Jerry (I believe) made about >Onelist selling their mailing lists. As a moderator of a large (430+) list >on Onelist (The Casting List), I was assured to the Nth degree that under no >circumstances would Onelist sell their e-mail addresses or tolerate spam. I >personally have never received any unusual volume of spam on the e-mail >address that I use for the list (the miracle castings address), although my >hotmail address, which I only use for personal correspondence and don't post >to any newgroups with, has been getting majorly whacked with spam in the >last month or so. Is Onelist really doing this??? If so, I may have to go >postal on these guys, as they were downright rabid about any moderator or >list member sending unsolicited e-mail to anyone! Has anyone else on this >list with a Onelist membership gotten a large volume of spam lately? I'll try to locate the article. I don't keep all my back issues, as I receive about two dozen trade magazines. I know it was within the past year. It was in one of the following magazines, if I recall: CIO (Chief Information Officer), CIO Web Business, eMedia Professional, or eBusiness. To clarify, OneList was not cited as allowing SPAM on their system (via their lists), but rather sold their subscriber lists to SPAMmers who mailed them direct. OneList was not alone in doing this. (How do you think they pay their bills of offering free list hosting?) Again, I'll try to find the article. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SugarJ69@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:33:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] a tiny on-topic"anti-tangent" In a message dated 8/11/99 4:36:14 AM !!!First Boot!!!, miracle-castings@on.aibn.com writes: << It's all opinion, conjecture, or best-recollection, unless there's hard documentation. But even documentation can lie. I'm currently looking at a plan on my wall, direct from Sikorsky, of the Turbotrain. Factory plans! And it's wrong! The windows are out to lunch; they never made it that way. >> This is so true! I work in the electronics field as an engineering technician [an Igor to a Frankenstein]. I am an independent contractor so I've been to several places over the past couple decades. One of my longer contracts was with one of the "Big 3" auto makers and the way things worked was the engineer and draftsman would give me a blueprint for one of their contraptions and tell me to build, test and calibrate it. About every hour or so, I would be calling the designers regarding flaws in their designs. The standard answer was "make it work and write down what you did." By the time a project was completed [working], it was on to the next job and the designers would bury the paperwork and prints and never make the changes on paper to reflect the "real thing." With today's computers one would think this would be a simple thing to do but everyone is in a hurry and things are overlooked. I would think that the Pennsy and other railroads built their equipment in the same manner but because they didn't have such things as AutoCAD, it would sometimes be necessary to redraw entire prints to reflect corrections and upgrades by hand, which is very time consuming and we all know "time is money." So if you see something that doesn't 100% match the drawing, this could be the reason. Another offering would be that when a new drawing is generated, it is given a new "rev" number and a common error is to have the wrong rev print in hand while evaluating a piece of equipment. Regards, SugarJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:24:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Wayne's post suggests that it might be a problem getting 25 Hz power. Did I miss something? I had never heard that all of the power NY- DC-Harrisburg and branches was ever converted from 25 Hz. Did this happen some dark night? Though I believe the rotary converters are probably gone, replaced by solid state equipment capable of generating 25 Hz. Don't some of the old Silverliners require 25 Hz, or are they gone or capable of 60 Hz? Conn DOT and NJ Transit M+E are different, but of course not ex- PRR so they might as well be different. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AndersonCL@nswccd.navy.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:06:46 -0400 The rotary converters at Schuykill Station of PECO still provide the NEC with 25 Hz power. The former RDG Wayne Junction Complex... those of you that used RDG commuter trains may recall the converter problems of the mid 1970's when CR was new and the EMU's were powered by CR diesels, has solid state converters - the only known application of new technology for an old power distribution system. There is also a "transfer cable" in place between Schuykill and Wayne Junction. In regards to getting a "G" motor back on the road... The problem is not technical, but, cost! The main transformers which contained, now banded PCB's, would have to be manufactured along with other similar appliances. In addition, the engine would have to be completely overhauled with particular attention to its frame. Most electrical work would literally have to be "hand crafted". I can envision millions of dollars going into this exercise... well beyond the capability of most organizations. Chas -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:25 AM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Wayne's post suggests that it might be a problem getting 25 Hz power. Did I miss something? I had never heard that all of the power NY- DC-Harrisburg and branches was ever converted from 25 Hz. Did this happen some dark night? Though I believe the rotary converters are probably gone, replaced by solid state equipment capable of generating 25 Hz. Don't some of the old Silverliners require 25 Hz, or are they gone or capable of 60 Hz? Conn DOT and NJ Transit M+E are different, but of course not ex- PRR so they might as well be different. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:36:05 -0400 From: steve Subject: [PRR] H&P branch I'm looking for information on the H&P branch. I am looking mostly for a history and use thru the late 1940's. If anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be great. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:48:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/10/99 9:58:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Stuthayer writes: << In a message dated 8/10/99 5:26:54 AM Mountain Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << Will the Panhandle rise again? >> If it does, you are going to have to trade in all those PRR Keystones, NYC Cigarbands, and PC Worms for Thoroughbreds. Just kidding... :-) Stuart >> Stu, They can have those keystones just as soon as they pry them from my cold, still fingers. Good thing you're kidding, pard. OTOH, the local railfans will go wild if NS starts running down the hill through Taylor Station and on west into Columbus. The "shared ROW" (joint B&O and PRR out to Newark OH) will be littered with Kodak -- er, Fuji boxes. And with traffic, the giant cuts of all the Panhandle's tunnel daylighting in Eastern Ohio could again be an attraction. However, let's wait and see what really happens. No matter what NS does, I doubt the PRR will lose its status as the biggest and most complex ghost railroad in Ohio (or Indiana). Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:11:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Been down this road before. Some of you may remember this thread from last year - my esteemed "partner" and I were working on exploring this situation. We even had a letter of intent signed with the Leatherstocking Chapter, NRHS to lease 4932 and 4934 with the idea of restoring 4934 to service. I have tons of correspondence on the feasablity of restoring a G to service. It CAN be done according to the Railroad contacts I have. Just a matter of $$$. However, 2 points to be aware of: 1. West Chester branch has some trestles - not sure if they are rated to hold a G anymore. There is one or 2 big ones east of Media, and one big one between Media and Elwyn. 2. Volunteerism - somebody needs to do the dirty work, and make a long term commitment. After busting my hump for months arrainging the lease deal, looking at storage space, networking with the neccessary RR officials, etc, my Partner/Mechanic suddenly got busy with another project and lost interest overnight, leaving me high & dry. People nowadays are very busy, loose interest quickly, and in general, talk much more than they are willing to work. When someone else SHOWS me they are serious (instead of just talking about it), I will be more than happy to give this project my all. Until then, it's all wishful thinking. Period. Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:24:53 EDT Much of the now single track has a bike trail adjacent to it in the Newark OH area. I am sure this would make the fans vs NS cops contest a riot! Also, if, as I think, the state of Ohio owns it what are the terms of the OC's contract to operate it? If NS wants something, why not the W&LE? It used to be theirs! It runs Bellevue to Rook yard in Pittsburgh, not just Mingo Jct. Also on down to Connelsville if you are not afraid of incredible high bridges. It would also get the whole Conrail/NS debacle off topic for PRR-Talk. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] H&P branch Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:04:44 -0400 -----Original Message---- From: steve To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 1:39 PM Subject: [PRR] H&P branch >I'm looking for information on the H&P branch. I am looking mostly for a >history and use thru the late 1940's. > >If anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be great. > >-steve > >Directions: West of Petersburg, east from Hollidaysburg! Just kidding of course. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:58:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: A question of color Passenger cars went Tuscan in the teens if not before. The Pennsylvania Special AKA Pennsylvania Kid was in yellow and green until name was chugged to the Pennsylvania Limited. Best guess is that it coincided with the change to 60 and 70 foot steel cars. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:15:44 -0400 Could the absense of a comprehensive and accessible highway system may have hindered railfans from metropolitan areas from venturing out in the midwest? Don't get me wrong. Back then, state roads and US routes traversed through the midwest but they were not multi-laned like they are today. Now it is easier to travel to the boondocks than in the '30's, '40's, and '50's. In addition, there are more restuarants and motels in smaller cities now when compared to yesteryear. These factors might explain why photos of the PRR dropped off at Pittsburgh and then picked up again in Englewood. Ted Andrews In the boonies -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 6:54 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Bill & folks, First off, as regards point #h, Philley could be said , by some, to indeed have 2-1/2 railroads: the B&O, Reading Company and PRSL, as well as four subways: Broad Street, Frankford-Market, the Speedline and the BIG RED SUBWAY. But we'll lay the kidding aside, Seeing as how much we all like the Pennsy. I've always wondered about the (relative) scarcity of PRR images west of Pittsburgh, and many of the points mentioned are too universal to explain the delemma. Everybody was stuck with the same film, and places much less or no more scenic than the Midwest have been heavily photod. But it is true that in towns with more photogenic engines, the Pennsy doesn't come out too well. It's no surprise that the older picture-takers ignored F units, at least to us who grew up in the 1950's and early 60's. Steam was too recent, the older guys had the spending power and influence and many of them had a grudge against diesils. In a way I can't blame them, because I can't get into current railroading or even second generation units, not when there's a long-gone world populated by cab units, RS units, Baldwins and Geep 9's. Not to mention lots of passenger trains, mail trains, cabooses, towers and all the human elements that made railfanning so rewarding. But come to think of it, the original posting about Pennsy west of Monroeville never said there were no Pennsy fans west of there. It only made reference to the fact that layout tours were set up for those heading east from the convention, or at least that's my take. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Fred G Rea scribit: > > Much of the now single track has a bike trail adjacent to it in the > Newark OH area. I am sure this would make the fans vs NS cops contest a > riot! Also, if, as I think, the state of Ohio owns it what are the terms > of the OC's contract to operate it? > > If NS wants something, why not the W&LE? It used to be theirs! It runs > Bellevue to Rook yard in Pittsburgh, not just Mingo Jct. Also on down to > Connelsville if you are not afraid of incredible high bridges. It would > also get the whole Conrail/NS debacle off topic for PRR-Talk. Yes, but ... Do you _really_ want to run loads of traffic (potentially) on the W&LE? Seriously? -- Mark P.S. this is _not_ a flame. But in comparision to ex-PRR facilities, W&LE is penny-ante. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Andrews, Ted scribit: > > Could the absense of a comprehensive and accessible highway system may have > hindered railfans from metropolitan areas from venturing out in the midwest? > Don't get me wrong. Back then, state roads and US routes traversed through > the midwest but they were not multi-laned like they are today. Now it is > easier to travel to the boondocks than in the '30's, '40's, and '50's. In > addition, there are more restuarants and motels in smaller cities now when > compared to yesteryear. There are competing questions, actually, to be answered: 1) how many photos _exist_ "out there" for Lines East vs. Lines West? 2) how many photos _have been published_, tend to get chosen, etc., for Lines East vs. Lines West? Of course, what I'm getting at with question #2 (if it wasn't clear already) was the "interest" factor. If you live in Philly (and I'm not picking on anyone in particular), and you have lots of friends in the Philly area, and collectively you all have a large library, and collectively you all have made trips to Penn Sta. NYC and Enola and Conway, and collectively you all have made few to no trips elsewhere, that is good explanation (though not a good reason) for Lines West photos not to get published. It's not just Lines West. How many PRR photos have y'all seen published of ... Port Allegheny and Keating Summit? THis is nearly as exciting a place as Horse Shoe. How 'bout Olean? Buffalo? Rochester? Hagerstown? Martinsburg? Cumberland? Lock Haven? Berwick? DelMarVa? Oil City? Apollo? And noticed I've not even _begun_ to touch Lines West !! -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:12:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Please keep in mind that under the Federal Rails to Trails legislation, the railroad has the right to take back the right-of-way if they need it. The right-of-way is in effect banked property for which the railroad got a charitable contribution right off on taxes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:08:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon In a message dated 8/10/99 8:59:39 PM EST, rhensley@anderson.cioe.com writes: << Traffic slows and the timelyness of posts can be lost. Indeed, some posts might be lost completely at the discresion of the moderator. >> Certainly no slowing of the traffic today ! Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:58:08 -0400 Gize: I am not familir with the OC operating the Panhandle in eastern Ohio. Does anyone know on this list what the train frequency was before the NS rerouting. What is the current train frequency? Also on a somewhat related topic, does anyone know the current use and train frequecy of the Ft. Wayne line in Indiana? CSX owns it now but NS still has trackage rights on it. I believe there is at least one person on this list that lives in Valparaiso and may be able to shed some insight. Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Fred G Rea [mailto:fredrea@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 12:25 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Much of the now single track has a bike trail adjacent to it in the Newark OH area. I am sure this would make the fans vs NS cops contest a riot! Also, if, as I think, the state of Ohio owns it what are the terms of the OC's contract to operate it? If NS wants something, why not the W&LE? It used to be theirs! It runs Bellevue to Rook yard in Pittsburgh, not just Mingo Jct. Also on down to Connelsville if you are not afraid of incredible high bridges. It would also get the whole Conrail/NS debacle off topic for PRR-Talk. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:11:40 -0500 (CDT) From: padraice@megsinet.net Subject: [PRR] Getting a GG1 running Regarding the occasionally broached topic of getting a G running, I've had a thought that runs close to home here in Northern Illinois - admittedly not a very common venue for a G. Illinois Railway Museum has a trolley operation on their about 5 mile main. As is common with most trolley lines, the overhead is 600 volt DC, but I believe it is pantagraph compatible. I base this on their occasional operation of their South Shore Little Joe, which is roughly the same size and weight, if not heavier than a GG1. So the track and wire should be OK. This leaves the internal workings of the G. Like most if not all Gs, this one is without transformer - but that may not be a problem if the AC motors can handle DC. If 600 volt DC is too much, perhaps the motors could be run in series pairs. It would seem that some sort of control arrangement could be set up, perhaps even using the existing control switching. Since the locomotive would not be operated at anywhere the speed or load that it did on the Pennsy main, any shortage of power would be tolerable. Pacific Electric once ran a former Visalia Electric AC set of interurban cars on DC, and South Shore briefly ran some Chicago Lake Shore and South Bend AC cars on DC. Admittedly not the same thing as a G, but it might be something to pursue. Oh yes, and IRM has a GG1. Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:34:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cant't make it to Altoona; PRR .wav files wanted Hi Gize, looks like i won't be able to make it to Altoona. my wife's recovery from surgery is talking longer than anticipated and i am primary caregiver for my sons. in the meantime, I've been helping a local ISP with a local history site just got done with Yellow Springs and Railroads article. i though it'd be nice to have the exhaust sounds and whistle of a K4 just like the one which would disrupt the out door Shakespeare festival every night as it took one section, a sleep, of the Springfield/Dayton/Cincinnati to Chicago 'The Union'" down the Springfield branch through the village passing about 200 feet from the outdoor amphitheater where the play was being performed. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:23:55 -0400 Mark: I think that you brought up some good points as well as questions. For your first question, I believe that in terms of numbers, there are by far more Lines East photos than Lines West photos. The reason lies with the demographics. In the first have the this century, the east coast had the lion's share of the nation's population. It was not until after WWII when people began to disperse into other parts of the county such as the south east and south west. Railfanning tended to be confined in the larger metropolitan areas like Philly, NY, Pittsburgh, etc. Photographers tended to bump in to each other and associate with one another. Photos were shared and a good "pool" of photos emerged; many of them ended up in books and magazines. I think that this answers question #2 that you raised that there are more Lines East photos published than Lines West. You raised a question on why certain areas in the east were not covered ( Olean, Buffalo, Rochester, Hagerstown, Martinsburg, Cumberland, Lock Haven, Berwick, DelMarVa, Oil City, Apollo, etc.) I think that accessibility was a factor here too. In the 1930's the Pennsylvania Turnpike was built linking Pittsburgh to the East Coast. It also opened southern Pa. and PRR mainline accessible to railfans. Northern Pennsylvania and central NY state did not have a multilaned road like the turnpike going through them. This could have hindered railfans in going these areas. But what about areas like Hagerstown? There were areas near populated areas but were overlooked by photograghers. My personal hunch is that railfans back then were going to places that were well known, heavily trafficked, and publizied by train books (train magazines were rare if they did exist at all) I think that smaller railroad communities were missed for the bigger venues. For example, it is 1938. The PRR has just announced its "Fleet of Modernism". Where would a young rail fan want to go, Horseshoe Curve or Sunbury? I think that quantity was put in front of variety. Today, it seems that the opposite is true. In summary, I do not believe that there ever was a Lines East bias. I think that the population demographics in the USA before 1950 was skewed to the east coast and railfanning was centered on major, high trafficked areas. The smaller railroad towns with little traffic were not bothered with in both the east and west. My 3 cents worth Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej [mailto:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 2:37 PM To: Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com Cc: BPX29@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Andrews, Ted scribit: > > Could the absense of a comprehensive and accessible highway system may have > hindered railfans from metropolitan areas from venturing out in the midwest? > Don't get me wrong. Back then, state roads and US routes traversed through > the midwest but they were not multi-laned like they are today. Now it is > easier to travel to the boondocks than in the '30's, '40's, and '50's. In > addition, there are more restuarants and motels in smaller cities now when > compared to yesteryear. There are competing questions, actually, to be answered: 1) how many photos _exist_ "out there" for Lines East vs. Lines West? 2) how many photos _have been published_, tend to get chosen, etc., for Lines East vs. Lines West? Of course, what I'm getting at with question #2 (if it wasn't clear already) was the "interest" factor. If you live in Philly (and I'm not picking on anyone in particular), and you have lots of friends in the Philly area, and collectively you all have a large library, and collectively you all have made trips to Penn Sta. NYC and Enola and Conway, and collectively you all have made few to no trips elsewhere, that is good explanation (though not a good reason) for Lines West photos not to get published. It's not just Lines West. How many PRR photos have y'all seen published of ... Port Allegheny and Keating Summit? THis is nearly as exciting a place as Horse Shoe. How 'bout Olean? Buffalo? Rochester? Hagerstown? Martinsburg? Cumberland? Lock Haven? Berwick? DelMarVa? Oil City? Apollo? And noticed I've not even _begun_ to touch Lines West !! -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:19:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? In a message dated 99-08-10 23:23:33 EDT, bubbles@visi.net writes: Also i have no idea of what kind of weight restrictions there might be (remember GG-1s weigh over 230 tons) >> < Some time ago we discussed the PS-1 box by InterMountain that Nixon Enterprises custom painted in "Merchandise Service" silver scheme and it was determined that the PS-1 never wore the scheme in question. Did the X-40b ever wear the "Merchandise Service" silver band scheme? If so, does anyone know if the following are valid numbers for the X-40b, as well as for the X-40b in this scheme? 37042, 37058, 37096 Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:46:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Please keep in mind that under the Federal Rails to Trails legislation, the > railroad has the right to take back the right-of-way if they need it. The > right-of-way is in effect banked property for which the railroad got a > charitable contribution right off on taxes. And I have heard, unconfirmed, that no right of way has yet been unrailbanked; The community outcry effectively makes it gone. (which is a real shame, if true) Another of my PRR-ghost-railfanning trips will likely be over the Panhandle starting with the lifted section in the coming weeks; I'll try to get some pictures. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Fw: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:44:33 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer To: bubbles@visi.net Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? >I agree, its a goofy idea. You can't begin to imagine what perils that Idea >would impose, even IF the voltage and environmental concerns could be >overcome. You would need a Wilmington Shop type area to maintain them, >i.e. take the carbody shell off in order to change a traction motor. The >bare minimum would be a drop table. Anybody out there anymore who even >knows what a locomotive tire IS? let alone how to machine them (on whose >lathe) and shrink them onto the wheel. > >Where in the world would you buy the drive cups, which the G's ate up like >race horses eat oats! > >The process of rewinding traction motors would be a subject all unto itself. > >Parts like air compressors, power conditioning coils etc. would be >non-existant. We used to be able to rob and cannobalize the be-geezez out >of the units that were set aside. > >But even more importantly, working around electric locomotives and MU cars >takes an inordinate amount of safety training. How to change pantograph >shoes under a live catenary etc. etc.etc. > >I won't even go near the subject of catenary maintenance. > >I'd say the idea is about 3 miles BEYOND goofy. > >That's just my opinion now. Ya'all hear? > >Bill V. >-----Original Message----- >From: bubbles@visi.net >To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com >Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 10:19 PM >Subject: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? > > >> >> Hi Folks.... >> >> Ok...with all of the talk we had recently about voltage changes and >> running a GG-1 again...I'd thought i'd pass this idea to the group. >> I was rereading the March 1999 issue of Trains and noticed the article >> about the West Chester Railroad (pages 84 and 85). They are a tourist >> road that runs on seven miles of the former PRR West Chester branch >> that is currently owned by SEPTA. SEPTA only uses the branch >> as far as Elwyn.(about halfway out). It states that the cantenary >> is almost completely intact and is de-energized. This line was >> electrified in 1928 for commuter service. They currently run >> a Geep painted in Pennsy colors. >> >> Ok i'll say this...I don't know what kinda voltage SEPTA uses for this >> branch or even if there is a local sub-station for it. >> (Heck i don't know a Amp from a Gigawatt) and I don't >> know if there is even a G that could be made to run in a short time >> for this line. Also i have no idea of what kind of weight >> restrictions there might be (remember GG-1s weigh over 230 tons) >> either. But although you could'nt do any 80 MPH NEC speeds and >> even though this line is only 7 Miles long (similar to Strasburg) >> It might be a place to run a G. You could run a unmodified G there >> and perhaps (i said perhaps) draw enough folks to ride trains behind >> the GG-1 with the future goal of setting aside (assuming a profit), >> funds a rebuild for a G that could be run on the NEC or Harrisburg >> main. You would of course have to work out something with SEPTA, >> The WCRR and who ever would have a G to run on it. >> >> It just another of my goofy ideas...but its not too far fetched. >> >> >> Til Later >> Hank Mummert >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:13:04 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Trucks for Bowser H-21 with clam shell hoppers Hello list, I purchased one of the new Bowser H-21 hoppers with the clamshell hoppers in the circle keystone scheme. I replaced the arch bar trucks with Bowser's Crown trucks. Since the H21 articles I have from Railmodel Journal and Model Railroading are packed away in storage, I was wondering, is this combination correct for 1948-52? I was so sure the arch bars would be wrong for this time frame that I ordered the Crown trucks and installed them without thinking. My H-21 has the circle keystone lettering. Also, did any H21s with the original PRR lettering (ie without circle keystone) survive to 1948-52; I'm looking for an excuse to add one of these to my layout, even in a heavily weathered condition. I do realize that if I could've put this question off until September, John Teichmoller's new book would probably answer my questions. Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:27:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon In a message dated 99-08-11 01:13:06 EDT, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << I must add my support for an un-moderated discussion on this list. >> Jerry and all--- This list is the most informative, well-mannered and just-plain-fun of all the railfan lists I'm on. It's fine just the way it is. The so-called "flame wars" here are very infrequent, and quite mild compared to what happens elsewhere! I fully agree with Andrew's comments about everything being slowed down on a moderated list. Don't change anything. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:13:54 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] a running GG-1? >Illinois Railway Museum has a trolley operation on their about 5 mile >main. As >is common with most trolley lines, the overhead is 600 volt DC, but I believe >it is pantagraph compatible. > >This leaves the internal workings of the G. - but that may not be a problem if >the AC motors can handle DC. ===== This is probably the most practical solution, as there are already some trolley wires up in various places and more can be put up fairly easily. With a 600 volt wire, all you need is a set of standard diesel throttle controls which can be found just about anywhere. Of course- one could eliminate the problem all together by building an EMD 567 into a baggage car and MUing it to the G. That would really open up the possibilities- we may even see GG-1s operating on Lines West! How do you suppose a GG-1 would have performed on the Fort Wayne District? :-}> Bob (can't resist a straight line) Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Re:GG-1 and etc. Hello guys... Thank you for all the posts on the G question...... I realize it would take a lot of money to put one back into operation and you would have to have the support there to run one. My question really was if the West Chester branch could be a place to run one if one were in shape to run and everything else was in place to be able to run it. I did wonder though if there was one G that was retired more or less intact. One that would'nt need much in the way of work. As for a place to repair one...barring the removal of the car body... I do recall that Strasburg once did repairs on one back in PC days for one that went lame out on the main line. Strasburg was nearby and it had been decided to tow it there for repairs. I think it had something to do with its wheel bearings. Strasburg also has a drop pit and wheel lathe. They did the wheel work for UP 4-8-4 No. 844. There might not be parts made for the GG-1 anymore but... concider this. I work for a large shipyard. There are many parts on ships that are similar to railway equipment. I have seen all kinds of engineroom parts that are similar if not the same as railway parts. One that comes to mind was a Worthington feed water heater that i saw a couple of years ago on a ship that was only a few years old. EMD made a marine version of the 567 engine so did FM(and they still do)and also Alco. Some of the engine and related control parts are interchangeable between railway and marine applications. Also ships use all kinds of motors ,pumps and transformers (although most run off of 440-480 volts) and related electrical control equipment. There are many tug boats around (including some former PRR tugs) that are out there over 40-50 years old. Thanks again.... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:04:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR and Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Coal The Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Coal Company is a 44 mile short line that junctions with the Middle Division at Huntingdon at 97.2 miles from Harrisburg. As a matter of fact the Junction is right across the main line from "Hunt Tower." I recently acquired an Employees Time Table for 1942 and it is very interesting in that it is a combination of a timetable and a list of stations and sidings similar to the PRR CT1000. They operated 4 mixed trains daily (except Sunday) plus 4 trains on Sunday. The amount of traffic generated by this short line probably accounts somewhat for the large PRR yard at Huntingdon. Freight traffic was generated by 3 coal wharfs, 30 collieries, several public tracks and freight stations, 3 refineries and 17 miscellaneous industries. Passenger traffic was generated by 16 stations. I am seeking additional information on this interesting Short Line. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:03:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Trucks for Bowser H-21 with clam shell hoppers Sorry to have to tell you this - most, if not all, of the Clam shell doors were gone by WW 2 - some may have made it to the "Circle K" paint scheme and some of those may have operated "over" the Crown trucks, Since Hopper cars were generally re-built every 10-15 years and since the "Clamshell" doors were for the originally projected lighter duty "Coke" service, I doubt VERY seriously any H-21's made it to the post war period with the original Hopper doors. I suggest that you weather your cars very heavily and put them with your MOW train Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:11:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" The X40B was painted in both the MS-1 and MS-3 schemes. The MS-1 was applied to 100 X40B. 37007 photo is published in the Keystone Vol 19 #2 p 4 There is also an X40b whose number you can't read on the rear cover of Keystone Vol.21 No.2 Upon further investigation, it appears that all X40B received the MS-1 scheme. There only were 100 cars in the class and 100 were painted with this scheme. So actually the only correct scheme for the X40B prior to 1954 is MS-1. IN '54 they were painted in the MS-3 scheme. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:30:46 -0700 Jerry and all I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the only cars to recieve the "Merchandise Service" lettering were the various X-29's. Maybe one of the better informed listers could comment on this. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:39:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION (AGAIN) - In a message dated 8/10/99 8:59:45 PM EST, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: << However I have seen and made notes from one Engineman's book where he occasionally entered "snapper" which meant he spent his 8 hour tour pushing. This would certainly go beyond just a yard job pushing someone out of a yard. His destinations on and off duty are the same (Wheatland) but that doesn't prove they just stayed in the yard. Typically the helpers at Wheatland pushed westbound coal and heavy merchandise trains up the Sharpsville/Transfer hill and then came back to Wheatland to do it again. >>> UNFORTUNATELY it would be unable to prove my argument from time books - unless you found one where the guy got paid for yard duty and made a note that he provided a "Snapper" that he didn't get paid for - A friend who is a retired Erie trainmaster recalls ordering out yard engines - both steam and diesel - to help stalled trains and the crews replied "get someone down here to sign my time book before I leave the yard" I knew several retired Pennsy men, including my Grandfather and a guy who was "Management" Sadly all are gone. My Grandfather who was "Union" all the way was convinced that lead and trailing trucks on Steamers were just a way to "screw" the working man - Since PRR enginemen got paid by "weight on drivers" - He never would buy any "mechanical" arguments ! My friend who was management, spent much time going from Pittsburgh to Altoona with "light" locomotives where he and a "Brotherhood" representative would witness the re weighing of any locomotive or class that had been modified. He indicated that the PRR resistance to mechanical stokers was as much for the weight as any other factor - the Company would have had to pay crews MORE for less work. On stokerless engines, Firemen got extra pay if they had to handle "wet" coal twice - That is shoveling it down from the pile before feeding it to the furnace. One of my friend's first management assignments was to go out with a camera to towers or bridges near Pittsburgh when these "double handling" claims went up A few photos of firemen shoveling coal BACKWARDS to the pile usually put an end to the claims No wonder why PRR "old timers" were leary of a man with a camera ! <<<< Where does all of this lead? I surmise snapper was a slang term - and people have been known to apply terms incorrectly. So I guess it leaves us not to much further ahead. Perhaps someone else will contribute more, factual information. >>>> yes, I think that this is probably the case I got the impression that I stated in my question, from "The Snapper" a "helper service" of the PRR T&HS - in an early issue where they defined the term as "getting you out of the yards" but I couldn't find that paragraph today if my soul depended on it - and perhaps the true answer is, as you suggest - a slang term that varied in meaning from time to time and place to place - Dick Ross Al >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:36:28 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEE439.306BEA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You would be interested in the books From Coal to Glory, Volume 1 and 2 by Jon D. Baughman, and Ronald L. Morgan. They cover the Huntingdon & Broad Top from 1852 to 1900. They were published in 1988 and 1992. I don't know if they are planning to bring out a volume covering the years after 1900. The address listed in the books is PO Box 188, Saxton, PA 16678. Duane Miller ---------- > From: Hal6963@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR and Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and CoalCompany > Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 7:04 PM > > The Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Coal Company is a 44 mile > short line that junctions with the Middle Division at Huntingdon at 97.2 > miles from Harrisburg. As a matter of fact the Junction is right across the > main line from "Hunt Tower." > > I am seeking additional information on this interesting Short Line. > > Harold > Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 > > ------=_NextPart_000_01BEE439.306BEA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You would be interested in the books = >From Coal to Glory, Volume 1 and 2 by Jon D. Baughman, and Ronald L. = Morgan.  They cover the Huntingdon & Broad Top from 1852 to = 1900.  They were published in 1988 and 1992.  I don't know if = they are planning to bring out a volume covering the years after 1900. =  The address listed in the books is PO Box 188, Saxton, PA =  16678.

Duane Miller

----------
> From: Hal6963@aol.com
> = To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: [PRR] PRR and Huntingdon and = Broadtop Mountain Railroad and CoalCompany
> Date: Wednesday, = August 11, 1999 7:04 PM
>
> The Huntingdon and Broadtop = Mountain Railroad and Coal Company is a 44 mile
> short line that = junctions with the Middle Division at Huntingdon at 97.2
> miles = from Harrisburg. As a matter of fact the Junction is right across the =
> main line from "Hunt Tower."
>
> I am = seeking additional information on this interesting Short Line.
> =
> Harold
> Modeling the Middle Division in 1916
> =
>

------=_NextPart_000_01BEE439.306BEA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] H&BT Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:45:10 -0500 Hi, all, The Huntiongdon & Broad Top is quite a fascinating line and received much less attention than it deserves. The most extensive material published so far on the H&BT are two volumes of a projected 4-vol set authored by Jon Baughman and Ron Morgan, both of Huntingdon County. While the books in my judgement are not as good as we have come to expect from railroad history, they do cover much of the early years of the line and have many wonderful photos. The H&BT is an OLD line -- pre-Civil War. And it died about the same time as the EBT did and for the same reasons. Over the years its engine roster included many former PRR engines. The wooden shelter across the tracks from the PRR Huntingdon station is, I believe, the H&BT station. At any rate, that is where the H&BT trains would be parked for their connection with the PRR. Another contributor to this list, Vagel Keller, is involved in researching the small iron furnaces that were also important in this region into this century and I hope will add more to this thread. The books are vols. 1 and 2 of FROM COAL TO GLORY: THE HISTORY OF THE HUNTINGDON & BROAD TOP MOUNTAIN RAILROAD & COAL CO. The last address I have for the authors is: PO Box 188, Saxton, PA 16678-0188 George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for Bowser H-21 with clam shell hoppers Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:33:38 -0700 Doug and all, Since the comment about the clamshell doors has already been addressed, I will restrict my comments to the trucks. Basically, archbar trucks were outlawed for interchange service in 1936. After that time, these cars would have other trucks. Bill Daniels - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:23:29 EDT Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Hi Bill: Appreciate your candor. However, when we did our research, we did speak to a good batch of former PRR men, men who worked at Wilmington Shops, Ivy City, former Road Foremen of Engineers, on and on. They all worked on the G's every day, and were well aware of their problems. I know you have a strong railroad background (love your PRR photos, BTW!), and I respect your opinion, but we had a majority of qualified, experienced people that said it could be done. Had people that could have gotten George Warrington's ear. Friends in the right places with NJ Transit, Friends in DC, etc etc. There is NO ONE problem that is insurmountable in restoring a GG1 to service, AFAIK. It simply is a matter of $$$, a shop with an overhead crane (Juniata Terminal, anyone?) and just as important, political connections. Restoring a G to service would by neccesity result in compromises/modifications/etc, but it can be done. Bold, yes. Goofy, No. Respectfully submitted, Frank Garon Still holding out hope... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:03:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: NS on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/11/99 9:48:29 AM Mountain Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << No matter what NS does, I doubt the PRR will lose its status as the biggest and most complex ghost railroad in Ohio (or Indiana). >> No doubt. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:02:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Derrick: A few suggestions for your Panhandle trip. The tracks are in to just beyond Polar Water's plant in Carnegie. They end in the wooded area to the west on the otherside of Noblestown Road. Some tracks remain hit and miss along the way to Burgettstown. Most of the bridges are still in place. There are a few interesting ones well over grown which look to have been built for far more weight than the rails. Short 8-10' spans of 3-4' reinforced concrete. Last time I was in Burgettstown there was still a considerable amount of track and PRR buildings scattered around. Good hunting Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:09:25 -0500 From: "jack witmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Having gone to school in West Chester when it was WCSTC, I rode the line a number of times when the commuter train consisted of regular coaches with a modified P5a on the point. Sorry I can't tell you the coaches' class. The P5s had a heavier axle load and longer wheelbase than the GG1s. For the modified P5a, it was 76,333 lbs per axle. (Another source says 77,800.) For the GG1, it was 50,500 lbs. (The other source says 50,000.) The drivers of the P5 class had a wheelbase of 20 feet, while the GG1s had two sets of drivers, each with a wheelbase of 13 feet 8 inches. Captain Jack, who saw the first electrically powered train to enter Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:30:30 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Daniels Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:31 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" See PRR Color Guide I page 82 for X41B - MS scheme, also PRR CG II page 44. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:36:23 -0500 Vagel wrote: > >Did these underframes result in the extended end platforms like on the N5B's >or where those only for the collision posts? > I don't know. The Keystone article had no photos or drawings of N5A's. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Th Panhandle in Eastern Ohio From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:47:13 EDT After responding to several people one on one re the NS buying the OC, decided to send this to the List. Someone asked what current OC operations were and I hope I can reply to that question. If I goof I would love to be corrected by some one who knows the actual history or current situation. Any OC employees on the list? The Panhandle has long been a favorite RR of mine. It was the nearest main line RR to my boyhood home in New Philadelphia Ohio. I saw it and rode it many times in the 1940's and 50's. >From 1978 to 1995 I lived north of Pataskala OH which is on the C&N joint (PRR+B&O) line between Newark and Columbus. It was then owned by CSX. From then until we moved in 1995 I heard and watched the traffic as the following occurred: 1979: The demise of the AMTRAK National Limited (30-31, the old Spirit of St Louis). Early 1980's: Welded rail installed on both tracks by CSX. About 24 Panhandle trains a day. Mid 1980's: A few (1 or 2) years later Conrail diverted almost all the Columbus-Pittsburgh traffic to the NYC(Big Four) line to Crestline and onto the Ft Wayne. About the same time Gould Tunnel filled with water. Traffic plummeted to about 2 locals a day. At about the same time CSX abandoned its line from East of Cambridge to Wheeling. One track was pulled on both the joint line and the old PRR line on East. The net result was CSX traffic also dropped to about 2 locals a day. Signals also went dark. This left no through RR route East from Columbus. All this about 1985. In the late 1980's NS put is old W&LE line from Brewster to Zanesville up for sale. This crosses the Panhandle just East of Coschocton at Morgan Run. A man named Jerry Jacobson from Youngstown bought the Zanesville line and began to operate it as the Ohio Central. He already had been operating the Zanesville to New Lexington portion of the PRR Zanesville branch as the Ohio Southern. The OS also ran a NYC branch to Glass Rock. The new OC ran a daily train from Zanesville to Brewster carrying coiled steel, an occasional way freight for local industries, and most note worthy, a daily tourist train from Sugarcreek to Baltic (about 4 miles) using a sharp little 4-6-0. PRR fans bare with me, I'll get back to the PRR soon. Also in the 1980's the NS spun off the old W&LE and P&WV lines to form the new W&LE. I had heard rumors that Conrail wanted to get rid of the Panhandle as early as a BS session with a Town tower operator in 1975. It began to sound serious in the press in, I would guess, the early 1990's. The bottom line is that the State of Ohio bought the Panhandle and the joint line and created the Columbus and Ohio River RR. They then contracted with OC to operate it. The initial OC operation on the Panhandle was the Coshocton-Buckeye Turn, CBT. A daily round trip of mostly chemical tank cars. In 1992 my son and I drove to Pittsburgh checking out both the Panhandle and the W&LE. Those two run parallel near the towns of Bowerston, Scio and Jewett. At that time the W&LE track was well maintained and had shiny rail. The Panhandle was un maintained and very rusty. Folks (non-fans) at the Dennison depot said trains through there were very rare. While walking the W&LE line south from Pittsburgh Junction we noticed the Cadiz branch above the Rexford tunnel. We later checked it out from the car and found sizeable trees growing between the ties. In 1995 we moved to Columbus where I could no longer easily monitor the traffic. I would, however, see CBT switching the interchange with the NS or waiting for clearance onto Conrail through downtown and on to Buckeye Yard. Over the years it seemed to grow nicely, implying some one was doing some successful marketing. About the same time our NMRA group was given a tour of the brand new beautiful OC shops at Morgan Run. Behind the shops was an impressive collection of steam locomotives, many appearing to be very operable. Now it is my understanding that the Gould tunnel has been fixed and operations go through to Mingo Jct on the Ohio River. The W&LE line from Bowerston to Jewett has been abandoned and the W&LE has trackage rights on the OC. Also I hear that the OC won a contract to haul coal from near Cadiz to the big power plant at Conesville. At least the horrendous parade of coal trucks is off the state highways in the area. I would assume those trees are also gone from the Cadiz branch. The OS has given up operation to Glass Rock this year and there has been no traffic to New Lexington in many years. The old PRR bridge to South Zanesville is no longer used and the diamond over the B&O in front of the depot is gone. I do not know current traffic densities buy I do know that the OC organization resurrected the Panhandle and turned it into what appears to be a going RR. I would hate to see it purchased, used, abused and abandoned by NS! The sharp looking OC units are not Tuscan but they are a nice shade of red. Their heavyweight coaches aren't P-70s but they too look sharp. They no longer operate regularly out of Sugarcreek, but read on. If you want to see any of this up close, there is an excursion from Columbus to Morgan Run behind a 4-8-4 on Oct 17. Contact the Dennison depot for more info.Yes, heavy steam on the Panhandle! They can be reached by E-mail at depot@tusco.net or on the web at www.dennisondepot.org Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:22:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: A question of color In a message dated 8/11/1999 2:10:23 PM Central Daylight Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << Best guess is that it coincided with the change to 60 and 70 foot steel cars. >> If I am allowed to make a guess (educated) , I agree with you, Rich ! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:09:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] a tiny on-topic"anti-tangent" In a message dated 8/11/1999 10:58:15 AM Central Daylight Time, SugarJ69@aol.com writes: << The standard answer was "make it work and write down what you did." By the time a project was completed [working], it was on to the next job and the designers would bury the paperwork and prints and never make the changes on paper to reflect the "real thing." >> Alternatively, as I have experienced in both the transformer and the relay business, the shop ignored the new drawing revision and continued to build as they always had. Effect is the same: drawing and product don't match. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:48:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] No list war..minor skirmish only Pennsy folks, I don't see any war brewing up, just minor contact with light casualties. I was a bit startled to see the reaction over at prr-talk, but I think that's blown over already. And there's no reason for it anyway...there's plenty of Pennsy lore, data and history to go around. Personally, I enjoy both lists, but in different ways, and intend to remain on both . But there's an interesting contrast to ponder. For some reason, which I would be hard put to define, the folks on prr-talk remind me of the people I went to college with, while the guys on PRR-FAX bring to mind the guys I used to work with on the railroad. I don't think it's really possible to get these vibes over the internet, but it sure feels like it. Makes me think back to friday nights in the section house when the foreman was done with the timekeeping and had logged us off duty and then he'd break out the cards and a pint and we'd shoot the bull an hour or two, four or five of us.Or when I'd be standing at a dutch door catching the breeze across Indiana on the eastbound General and the conductor would want to shoo me off till he saw the employee tt in my back pocket. A few minutes later he'd be sittin' with me in the lounge cushions talking railroading. No schoolorship here, but plenty of what real railroading was to me. There's a tendency to discount experience-the sights and sounds and smells of real life railroading- when compared to what's to be found in books, but I don't entirely buy that. After all, I served as a rifleman in Viet Nam and considered myself much better informed on the subject than any deskbound professor, but then our perspectives were somewhat different. But anyway, there's plenty of Pennsy to go around. Maybe this can all come together at the convention and we'll all end up better off. Best regards, gentlemen. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:50:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Portage RR I totally agree with the prior comments of Fred Rea and Vagel Keller. The Allegheny Portage RR National Historic Site at Gallitzin is a superb preservation effort by the National Park Service. The remaining artifacts, reconstructions, replicas and video programs tell a powerful story of the short but vital operations to cross the Allegheny Ridge prior to the PRR. And, since the PRR essentially put this statewide transportation system out of business, it is a story that needs to be part of the complete understanding of the 'how-and-why' of the PRR. When you attend the PRRT&HS Convention, Gallitzin and the Tunnels will no doubt be on your "must" list. Don't short-change yourself by not visiting the Allegheny Portage RR site. When you exit U.S.22 at the Gallitzin interchange from either direction, you will come to a stop sign. Turn right into the APRR entrance drive. David Seidel Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:41:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" In a message dated 8/11/1999 4:16:21 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Did the X-40b ever wear the "Merchandise Service" silver band scheme? If so, does anyone know if the following are valid numbers for the X-40b, as well as for the X-40b in this scheme? 37042, 37058, 37096 >> The 100 X40b's WERE the original Merchandise Service cars. Designed for that purpose, to the best of my knowledge. 300 50-footers and numerous X29s were added. X40b's were numbered 36997 to 37096 per January 1953 ORER, so your numbers match. They were delivered in full silver-band regalia. I beg Sunshine and Westerfield to bring out this car (along with the X23 and K7) everytime I visit their booths! BTW, the previous decorated brass versions of this car made the common mistake of using tuscan red, not freight car color, for the base color. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:15:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for Bowser H-21 with clam shell hoppers I would suggest someone check with Al Westerfield. He has the documentation and photographs for all cars he makes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:11:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:DN TOWER I have a Time table effective November 25, 1900 which shows a tower at Verona with the Telegraph sign of "QN" but no "DN." QN was located at the point where the Plum Creek branch left the AV line. It would seem that DN was constructed sometime after November 1900. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:10:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" In a message dated 8/11/99 10:17:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the only cars to receive the "Merchandise Service" lettering were the various X-29's. Maybe one of the better informed listers could comment on this. >> Well Bill, you are wrong. Champ Decal makes a set that covers 40,' 50' & 60' MS boxes. My question for a long time was what the correct design. It's the x40 b with single 7' Youngstown doors and a 4-4 dreadnought end. Intermountain makes the doors in plastic, Gloor Craft the end in white metal. A PRR roster I down loaded from keystone crossings states the 100 X-40Bs were numbed 36997-27096 sequentially. so Jerry, all three numbers are correct. I have no information about retirement dates. The X40 is a unique auto box in that it lacks end doors and its double 9' Youngstown 4-4 doors are set square, not staggered as most autoboxes. there's stories the x40 in the may 1956 model railroader and a much better one on a kitbash but with drawings of the X40 and X40B. in the June 1970 model railroader. Only six X40s were built. I believe that four were rebuilt as x40as, and with lading equipment for auto parts service and with single 8' Youngstown's doors but I can't find my June 1970 so can't validate my memory. I'll keep looking. Scratchbuilders, in hO intermountain makes the 7' and 9' foot door and Gloor craft make the correct dreadnought end TOM V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:02:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/11/99 1:36:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << Much of the now single track has a bike trail adjacent to it in the Newark, OH area. I am sure this would make the fans vs NS cops contest a riot! Also, if, as I think, the state of Ohio owns it what are the terms of the OC's contract to operate it? >> Fred, Given the inherent dangers of having a popularly used recreation resource, if our experience with bike paths in Greene County is typical, then it might be best to move the path. West of the Big 4 diamonds by the Panhandle depot in London, Ohio, the old Columbus & Xenia RR mainline has one track on its right of way on it for local that doesn't make it to the edge of town. from London to Clement (the grade separated crossing of the B&O's Wellston subdivision's East Dayton Bypass visible from US 35) is bike trail, owned by county park departments in Greene and Montgomery counties and owned by the three Dayton Power & Light Co. who installed a transmission line on the right of way between Xenia & London where the paved bike path insures all weather access to the line for servicing. Now what was going around Springfield right after the CR partition was announced was that NS was considering double tracking the entire Conrail Southern Region Middle Division mainline west of the old Big 4 diamonds in London. Given that the old Big 4 line crosses Main Street just west of the depot and disappears between two buildings barely wide enough for the cars, any double tracking of this lin.e would require use of the C&X right of way through London and the construction of a mile or new track to connection with the Big 4 west of town. Haven't heard anything more about this. Tom V.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:26:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Frankfort & Other stuff In a message dated 8/10/99 12:10:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rwallis1@earthlink.net writes: << But may I request this "Logansport Chronicles" thing you mentioned earlier? I have tramped around L-port enough to be curious.>> Sure - I'm working on it. One of the documents I want to send is missing, so I'll be digging in my backups for it. << And here's one further question (as long as were at it): On one of my visits I managed to get a look at the old PRR shops from the east side and noticed the old brick or stone buildings along one edge of the property. Are these rather ancient-looking structures remnants of the original Chicago & Great Eastern shops of 1867? >> I wish I knew. From my visit, they certainly look as if they could be that old -- I think that kind of architecture disappeared well before the 1880's. Was the C&GE a Panhandle predecessor? Rick T. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:04:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: NS on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/11/99 8:23:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jerrya@aye.net writes: << I noticed that you said GHOST railroad.........Jerry A. >> The Ghost railroad reference is Rick's. I was simply aggreeing. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:46:10 -0500 From: tracker Subject: Re: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Mark Bej wrote: > > Andrews, Ted scribit: > > > > Could the absense of a comprehensive and accessible highway system may have > > hindered railfans from metropolitan areas from venturing out in the midwest? > > Don't get me wrong. Back then, state roads and US routes traversed through > > the midwest but they were not multi-laned like they are today. Now it is > > easier to travel to the boondocks than in the '30's, '40's, and '50's. In > > addition, there are more restuarants and motels in smaller cities now when > > compared to yesteryear. First, let me say I had the good fortune to live in both Akron, Ohio and various cities in the south during the 40's-50's. The argument that the U.S. outside of the northeast was somehow not as developed is provincilism of the worst kind. Until the advent of the interstate system, most areas in the NE had no better roads than anywhere else in the US. Except for the turnpikes throught the east, the US highways were just as wide and just as difficult to navigate in say Ohio and Pennsylvania as they were in the south and southwest. A drive in any direction in east Texas will to this day show evidence of hundreds of motor courts built in the 30's and 40's. You are confusing population density with accessibility. there have always been a great deal more railfans in the NE than out this way. There still are. When I lived in Ohio, you could venture out almost any weekend and meet others chasing trains. When I moved to the South, only in major cities would you occasionally see another out pursuing the hobby. Yes there was more mile for mile along the NE higways but there was also a great deal more people living there. The argument that there was nothing but dirt roads or at best narrow concrete higways with nothing for miles and miles and that kept anyone from venturing out shws a complete lack of, or at least a very skewed perspective of the US at that time. No the reason there was more coverage of railroads in the NE was soley based on 1. a larger number of railfans, and 2. a greater density of railroads to cover. Jud Powell Texarkana, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:58:18 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for info: South Fork & Cresson Yard Plans Greetings to Terry and the group, I seem to remember that _Rails Northeast_ had an article about the Cresson Division with a plan of the yard. I won't be able to get back to you and the group until Monday with the issue date. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 04:47 PM 8/10/99 -0400, W. Terry Stuart wrote: >I am starting to think about my layout plan, which will include >"selectively compressed" versions of South Fork (PA) and Cresson yards, and >the South Fork Secondary. > >The goal is to have an operationally-based design. I'm looking for >information on how the yards were operated back in the early 60's. > >Does anyone know where I can find information on the operations; >or perhaps someone who used to work there, preferably as a yard master? > >Any help would be greatly appreciated! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:54:19 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Sleeping cars in thru service The PRR was famous for painting its equipment to match "foreign" trains with which it connected. I think we all know the long list. However, many other RRS refused to to that. In a thread on the passenger cars list, I was recently told that the B&O Washington sleeper on the Texas Special was dropped after 1949 because the Frisco/MKT did not want the off-color car in its pretty train. The PRR, of course, painted some old 10-5s for the service and shadowlined them. My question is, why was the PRR so accommodating when other RRs treated the consistency of their consists as sacred? I have a guess. The appearance of "foreign" cars in PRR trains was an advertisement of the fact that you could get anywhere in the country on the PRR. Their marketing department may have seen this as more important than the appearance of a consistent look to the train. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Frankfort & Other stuff Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:42:04 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 7:27 AM To: rwallis1@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Frankfort & Other stuff Rick, et. al. Rick asked> Was the C&GE a Panhandle predecessor? In 1865 the Chicago and Great Eastern Railway Company (No. 4) constructed the 64.86 mile line from LaCrosse, IN to 12th St. Chicago, IL. It subsequently became part of the PCC&StL RR Co. Source-C&C Vol III, page 358 Chronological Statement. More info on C&GE on page 493 which I do not have. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:GG-1 and etc. Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:45:18 -0400 Nice try. I realize that the steam loco crowd has plenty of experience in making parts from "scratch" (i.e. foundry molds, castings, welded fabrications etc. etc. and so on.) However, I believe that when you get into things electrical, and electro-mechanical and rubber drive cups you are really getting into some pretty pricy waters. Towing a G from West Chester to Strasburg would be quite a hike (times two) per trip. Also consider this. Lots of people will turn out to see a live steam locomotive because they don't particularly care which railroad it came from......They just want to see smoke coming out of a stack. That pretty much justifies the high cost of maintaining an operating steam locomotive. On the other hand, as nice as a GG-1 is or was, its pretty ho-hum to anybody west of Harrisburg and south of Alexandria, wouldn't you agree? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: bubbles@visi.net To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:38 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:GG-1 and etc. > > Hello guys... > > Thank you for all the posts on the G question...... > > I realize it would take a lot of money to put one back into operation > and you would have to have the support there to run one. My question > really was if the West Chester branch could be a place to run one > if one were in shape to run and everything else was in place to > be able to run it. I did wonder though if there was one G that > was retired more or less intact. One that would'nt need much in the way > of work. > > As for a place to repair one...barring the removal of the car body... > I do recall that Strasburg once did repairs on one back in PC days > for one that went lame out on the main line. Strasburg was nearby > and it had been decided to tow it there for repairs. I think it > had something to do with its wheel bearings. Strasburg also has a > drop pit and wheel lathe. They did the wheel work for UP 4-8-4 > No. 844. There might not be parts made for the GG-1 anymore but... > concider this. I work for a large shipyard. There are many parts > on ships that are similar to railway equipment. I have seen > all kinds of engineroom parts that are similar if not the same as > railway parts. One that comes to mind was a Worthington feed water > heater that i saw a couple of years ago on a ship that was only > a few years old. EMD made a marine version of the 567 engine so > did FM(and they still do)and also Alco. Some of the engine and > related control parts are interchangeable between railway and > marine applications. Also ships use all kinds of motors ,pumps and >transformers (although most run off of 440-480 volts) and related electrical > control equipment. There are many tug boats around (including some former > PRR tugs) that are out there over 40-50 years old. > > Thanks again.... > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:48:20 -0400 I personally had charge of the maintenance of the P-5s at Enola and we did it all with only a drop table and no overhead crane. We DID on occasion put a G on the drop table and do wheel work when there was no other way to get it to Wilmington. Yes it CAN be done. Anything CAN be done. But is it worth the trouble? Please see my response to "bubbles" in a later post down this list for more opinion on the subject. Bill -----Original Message----- From: FRANKGARON@aol.com To: herzog@icanect.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:25 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? >Hi Bill: > >Appreciate your candor. However, when we did our research, we did speak to a >good batch of former PRR men, men who worked at Wilmington Shops, Ivy City, >former Road Foremen of Engineers, on and on. They all worked on the G's >every day, and were well aware of their problems. > >I know you have a strong railroad background (love your PRR photos, BTW!), >and I respect your opinion, but we had a majority of qualified, experienced >people that said it could be done. Had people that could have gotten George >Warrington's ear. Friends in the right places with NJ Transit, Friends in DC, >etc etc. > >There is NO ONE problem that is insurmountable in restoring a GG1 to service, >AFAIK. It simply is a matter of $$$, a shop with an overhead crane (Juniata >Terminal, anyone?) and just as important, political connections. Restoring a >G to service would by neccesity result in compromises/modifications/etc, but >it can be done. > >Bold, yes. Goofy, No. > >Respectfully submitted, > >Frank Garon >Still holding out hope... > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:37:58 -0400 Are we having fun yet? (Daddy?) I'd say we are , son. -----Original Message----- From: PRRMAN@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon >In a message dated 99-08-11 01:13:06 EDT, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: > ><< I must add my support for an un-moderated discussion on this list. >> > >Jerry and all--- > This list is the most informative, well-mannered and just-plain-fun >of all the railfan lists I'm on. It's fine just the way it is. The so-called >"flame wars" here are very infrequent, and quite mild compared to >what happens elsewhere! I fully agree with Andrew's comments >about everything being slowed down on a moderated list. >Don't change anything. > >Rich Copeland > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] a running GG-1? Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:39:44 -0400 An EMD engine in a baggage car WITH traction motors would be more like it!!!!! Of course the fuel tank would be REAL baggage. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Robert A. Boyd To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:37 PM Subject: [PRR] a running GG-1? >>Illinois Railway Museum has a trolley operation on their about 5 mile >>main. As >>is common with most trolley lines, the overhead is 600 volt DC, but I believe >>it is pantagraph compatible. >> >>This leaves the internal workings of the G. - but that may not be a problem if >>the AC motors can handle DC. > >===== > >This is probably the most practical solution, as there are already some >trolley wires up in various places and more can be put up fairly easily. >With a 600 volt wire, all you need is a set of standard diesel throttle >controls which can be found just about anywhere. > >Of course- one could eliminate the problem all together by building an EMD >567 into a baggage car and MUing it to the G. That would really open up >the possibilities- we may even see GG-1s operating on Lines West! How do >you suppose a GG-1 would have performed on the Fort Wayne District? :-}> > >Bob (can't resist a straight line) > >Robert A. Boyd > >======== >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > >"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service >http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > >history - technology - modeling - sources >Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! >======== > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] GG1 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:45:19 -0400 If we wish to get a little crazy here: 1: Put a D_generator in it to supply Electric power: or 2: Put the DG in a Box/Repair car that it hauls: This way it could travel as part of a PRR historical piece, which may help get it paid for. tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:04:10 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 12 Aug, Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > The 100 X40b's WERE the original Merchandise Service cars. Designed for > that purpose, to the best of my knowledge. Then *why* in the world did they build a 60' car with only a 7' door? I would think that rapid movement of packages in and out would be a key factor to reducing dwell time. Microscale also makes Merchandise Service decals, but you'd have to piece together the striping and find the dimensional data elsewhere for anything longer than a 40' car. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:23:06 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 I would still love to see a G run, however, running one off of DG set is not that practical. The basic GG1 developed 4620 continues HP with short time locked rotor to about 9k. So just to power this thing you'll need the equivalent of two SD75s equipped 4000 hp diesel locomotive acting as power source. Just one would make for a slow start. Unlike straight electric's, diesels can not exceed their engine output. Two assumptions at this point, 1. you keep all the innards at 25 Hz 2. you want to make money to pay for all the toys. 1. To keep the 25 hz innards you'll need 25 hz generating equipment - either an (two) alternators that can be attached to our SD75s or an MG set to convert the SD75's output from 60 Hz to 25 Hz you can keep it at 600 volts A/C for transmission to the G, your going to need a ton of copper between the two too. 2. Looking at our train now, we have a GG1 dragging two SD75(b)s (Sans traction motors and cab, but with a full load of fuel), along with a big MG set that would weight close to GP9. Now we need to add some coaches (need to make money) I'm not going to do the math but with all the weight for the power generation and converter, we may be lucky to get one or two passenger cars onto it. Some one else can figure the cost per seat. I too will support an effort to run a G again. However, I don't think it will happen without it attached to catenary. Cos Thomas Fry wrote: > If we wish to get a little crazy here: > > 1: Put a D_generator in it to supply Electric power: > or > 2: Put the DG in a Box/Repair car that it hauls: > > This way it could travel as part of a PRR historical piece, which may help > get it paid for. > > tom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:25:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Sure There's PRR Lines East Bias. So What? Ted, I agree with your thoughful analysis below, especially with the linkage of East Coast railfans into something a sociologist would recognize as a community of interest. A social scientist would probably attempt to come up with a formula such as Population x Rail Traffic Activity x Accessibility x Number of Contacts with Other Railfans/Number of Railroads Available to Photograph = Photographic Record on a Railroad Division But my interpretation of the facts is that you have succeeded in explaining why "Lines East Bias" exists and will continue. Lines East Bias is a logical and natural result, given the dynamics of railfanning over the years. What it isn't is some evil plot to put down everything west of Pittsburgh. It's just that, for the one fourth of the US population living in the Northeast, the area west of Pittsburgh is terra incognita. They've never been there (flyovers don't count), and most of them hope never to have to. And why would we expect anything else? Also notice (at least until email) there wasn't a very good way to link up those (many) fans of the railroad located west of Conway (including those poor lost souls who grew up east of it). Until recently, we Lines Westerners happily bought books about Lines East, learned about the famous sites of the PRR, and sometimes vacationed "to the Curve and beyond". In fact, I predict we always will, because frankly, the history and operations of Lines East is a pretty good yarn. OTOH, we (Lines West fans) are basically silly worrying about Lines East bias. The question is, if we want more Lines West material, who among us is going to find it, write it, draw it, publish it, and organize the (social) meetings that will bring together its consumers. To those who have time to worry about Lines East Bias, I say "Get on your horse and ride -- there's work to do". A more sensible concern/objective would be for us Westerners to help show why the Pennsy could never have been a railroading superpower without its strong network of lines west of Pittsburgh and Erie. Now there's a tale worth the telling. Rick Tipton A Lines Westerner living in the South and looking forward to seeing y'all in Altoona, even though Altoona was just one of the MANY shops on the Pennsylvania System :^). In a message dated 8/11/99 4:36:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << Mark: I think that you brought up some good points as well as questions. For your first question, I believe that in terms of numbers, there are by far more Lines East photos than Lines West photos. The reason lies with the demographics. In the first have the this century, the east coast had the lion's share of the nation's population. It was not until after WWII when people began to disperse into other parts of the county such as the south east and south west. Railfanning tended to be confined in the larger metropolitan areas like Philly, NY, Pittsburgh, etc. Photographers tended to bump in to each other and associate with one another. Photos were shared and a good "pool" of photos emerged; many of them ended up in books and magazines. I think that this answers question #2 that you raised that there are more Lines East photos published than Lines West. You raised a question on why certain areas in the east were not covered ( Olean, Buffalo, Rochester, Hagerstown, Martinsburg, Cumberland, Lock Haven, Berwick, DelMarVa, Oil City, Apollo, etc.) I think that accessibility was a factor here too. In the 1930's the Pennsylvania Turnpike was built linking Pittsburgh to the East Coast. It also opened southern Pa. and PRR mainline accessible to railfans. Northern Pennsylvania and central NY state did not have a multilaned road like the turnpike going through them. This could have hindered railfans in going these areas. But what about areas like Hagerstown? There were areas near populated areas but were overlooked by photograghers. My personal hunch is that railfans back then were going to places that were well known, heavily trafficked, and publizied by train books (train magazines were rare if they did exist at all) I think that smaller railroad communities were missed for the bigger venues. For example, it is 1938. The PRR has just announced its "Fleet of Modernism". Where would a young rail fan want to go, Horseshoe Curve or Sunbury? I think that quantity was put in front of variety. Today, it seems that the opposite is true. In summary, I do not believe that there ever was a Lines East bias. I think that the population demographics in the USA before 1950 was skewed to the east coast and railfanning was centered on major, high trafficked areas. The smaller railroad towns with little traffic were not bothered with in both the east and west. My 3 cents worth Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:53:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Sure There's PRR Lines East Bias. So What? Or perhaps it is because the name of the railroad is "The Pennsylvanian Railroad." A Hoosier boy living in "Lines South (the Florida Trains)" territory and modeling the Middle Division in 1916. Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Sleeping cars in thru service In a message dated 8/12/1999 9:14:47 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << Their marketing department may have seen this as more important than the appearance of a consistent look to the train. >> My observation is that very few Pennsy trains had a consistent look to them, anyway. Their "streamlined" consists consisted of a mix of smooth side, fluted, streamlined with rivets, streamstyled heavyweights, and conversions. FWIW. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:25:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky In a message dated 8/11/99 10:16:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dlundy20@hotmail.com writes: << Rick: David Lundy on this end. I am part of the southeastern email talk and have a couple of questions for you. 1. I know the PRR handle L&N coal from Decoursey to docks in Ohio. Do you which docks? I was thinking Sandusky was the main one. Can you confirm?>> Hi Dave, There's been a lot of email interest in the dumping of Lake coal off the Pennsy. There's general agreement that the PRR dumped Lake coal at Erie, Cleveland, Sandusky, and some site in Chicago. Only the last two of these are suspects for dumping L&N-originated Lake coal. There was a thread that wove through PRR-Talk some months ago, concerning Eastern Kentucky coal traffic through DeCoursey, interchanged to the PRR/Panhandle at Undercliff Yard (Cincinnati), then up the Little Miami to Xenia and Columbus, then dispatched from Grogan Yard up the Sandusky Branch. All agreed that this traffic existed in large quantity, and no one cited any primary historical sources to back this up. In putting together a slide show for PRR in Dayton and Xenia, I did not find one picture of coal trains coming up from Cincinnati to use in my presentation. BTW, Pennsy fans seem to agree that Lake coal on the Sandusky Branch was primarily a summer activity, coming mostly from N&W and L&N, but also sometimes off the C&O. By winter, the Sandusky Branch had reverted to the status of a minor branch carrying local traffic. Virtually every railfan picture taken on this branch seems to have been of the J-1's (2-10-4) and the leased 5014? class Santa Fe 2-10-4 steam power that worked the Branch in summer 1956, the last season of PRR steam in Ohio. Similarly, there was later a much more modest email thread about L&N coal traffic interchanged to the Pennsy at Louisville and going north to Indy, where it joined a flood of PRR Vincennes Branch coal that went to Chicago via Logansport. As seems to be normal for PRR Lines West subjects, there are no articles and few commentators on this sort of thing. It's an open joke in the Pennsy historical society that the railroad might as well end at Pittsburgh for all the info we have (note: this isn't really true, but it feels good to say it when you can't find the data you need). My own opinion is that the odds of ever finding more info are not great, but are improved if determined fans over time curate what materials they can uncover. For example, Charlie Castner (L&NRHS), Tish Knoeller (Ky Ry Museum) and I are currently working to organize and preserve info on the L&N and on Louisville-area railroading from the Jack Fravert estate. <<2. Do you know which L&N EK sub minesshipped to which docks that the PRR handled?>> Know of no detailed traffic info of this kind. Normally, this kind of data comes from waybill files, mostly destroyed for both railroads concerned. But Stuart Thayer might have better info on this. << 3. If not, do you anybody that might know these answers other that the L&N Historical Society?>> It's conceivable others (including the Society, Kentucky Railway Museum, or the University of Louisville archives) have hard data. Best way to access people's info is to meet them face to face (get data and stories, rumors and myths), but I've also copied several folks who may chime in and offer more info - or directions to info - than I can. Rick Tipton Louisville KY PRRT&HS L&NRHS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:55:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky Per a previous post I have pic of the Ashtabula, Cleveland, and Sandusky Docks. I also have the 1949 edition of B&O Coals with the same general info as the PRR book except it covers their entire system. Also the L&N with the same info except for 1938. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:46:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Coal Mines on the PRR in Pennsylvania, C.D. No. 5, 2/15/49 Hello all, I just had the good luck to be given this document. It was published by the PRR and is 80 pages in length and contains to large foldout maps in the back. The full title is "Anthracite and Bituminous Coal Mines on The Pennsylvania Railroad and Lateral Line." It contains both alphabetical and geographical lists of mines. The list categories are: Index Number Map Location Mine Name Operator Address Railroad (if not PRR) PRR Branch PRR Division Location of Mine It lists 1150 bituminous mines and 36 anthracite mines. Middle Division Fans, all of the coal traffic was generated by the East Broadtop with 7 mines and the Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Coal Company with 47 mines, the Bald Eagle Branch with 5 mines, and the Clearfield Branch with 95 mines. There is also pictures of a S-2, T-1, Q-2, and J-1. Also pictures of coal dumping facilities at Greenwich Piers in Philly, South Amboy in New York Harbor, Canton Pier in Baltimore, Sodus Point, Erie Dock in Erie, Ashtabula Dock in Ohio, Cleveland Dock, and Sandusky Docks. Also included are photos, numbers, and specs for GLA Hoppers, GLCA Hoppers, H-31 Hoppers, H-21A Hoppers, H-25 Hoppers, GRA Gondolas, and GS Gondolas. If you have questions feel free to ask. I hope to eventually have this information on my Middle Division web page which will be opening soon. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:30:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky Sandusky Docks comprised the largest transhipping facility on the PRR on the Great Lakes in 1949. The 2 steam operated dumping machines had a combined capacity 100,000 tons per day (24 Hours), and the electric machine a capacity of an additional 86,000 tons per day (24 hours). The total yard capacity for the 3 machines was 10,215 cars. By comparison the facility at Sodus Point had a capacity of 20,000 tons per day (24 hours). Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:47:27 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1s Greetings: I have been reading with interest the speculations about resurrecting a G on the West Chester branch. Fascinating idea. For my contribution let me offer this quote from the Weight Restrictions table on p.312 of Eastern Region TT-21 effective 4-24-66 (I'm sorry, it's the newest one I have): Under West Chester branch it says " GG1 engine single unit only may be operated between Arsenal and West Chester." How's that? Of course, by this date the PRR was not good about maintaining bridges on branch lines, so neglect may have taken its toll. Bridge conditions would be the deciding factor, so this citation may now mean nothing. As for the PCBs in the transformers... is there not the possibility of some kind of waiver given the historic nature of the G? Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Coal Mines on the PRR in Pennsylvania, C.D. No. 5, Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:55:01 -0400 You sure were lucky. Be sure to let us know when you get it on the web. I remember visiting the Sodus Point Coal Dock when I was a kid. Boy was that noisy with the car shakers running! The boats that were loaded usually went to Canada as I remember. The ramp and dumping facilities are long gone but the concrete footings that supported the large facility are now a part of a marina. Track is all gone but the yard area is still open land and engine facilities and some of the office buildings are still there. Nothing was ever built on the site. I'd sure like to see a picture of it to refresh my memory. The line to Sodus ran up from Newberry Junction in Williamsport PA. We lived in Williamsport at the time and my father and grandfather worked for the (dare I say it) New York Central at Jersey Shore/Avis. I'm somewhat familiar with the mines to the west of Avis that were serviced by the Central. Their line ran north from Jersey Shore Junction to Geneva NY and then on to Lyons on the mainline. Delivered service coal. The B&O had a line up from PA to Rochester with a coal dock in Rochester for loading lake boats which usually went to Canada as well. I think the B&O ran over what used to be the PRR line into Rochester. Maybe someone can comment on this line. Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net -----Original Message----- From: Hal6963@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, August 12, 1999 8:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Coal Mines on the PRR in Pennsylvania, C.D. No. 5, 2/15/49 >Hello all, > >I just had the good luck to be given this document. It was published by the >PRR and is 80 pages in length and contains to large foldout maps in the back. >The full title is "Anthracite and Bituminous Coal Mines on The Pennsylvania >Railroad and Lateral Line." It contains both alphabetical and geographical >lists of mines. > >The list categories are: >Index Number >Map Location >Mine Name >Operator >Address >Railroad (if not PRR) >PRR Branch >PRR Division >Location of Mine > >It lists 1150 bituminous mines and 36 anthracite mines. > >Middle Division Fans, all of the coal traffic was generated by the East >Broadtop with 7 mines and the Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and >Coal Company with 47 mines, the Bald Eagle Branch with 5 mines, and the >Clearfield Branch with 95 mines. > >There is also pictures of a S-2, T-1, Q-2, and J-1. > >Also pictures of coal dumping facilities at Greenwich Piers in Philly, South >Amboy in New York Harbor, Canton Pier in Baltimore, Sodus Point, Erie Dock in >Erie, Ashtabula Dock in Ohio, Cleveland Dock, and Sandusky Docks. > >Also included are photos, numbers, and specs for GLA Hoppers, GLCA Hoppers, >H-31 Hoppers, H-21A Hoppers, H-25 Hoppers, GRA Gondolas, and GS Gondolas. > >If you have questions feel free to ask. I hope to eventually have this >information on my Middle Division web page which will be opening soon. > >Harold >Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:20:05 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] H&BT --On Mit, 11. Aug 1999 19:45 -0500 "George N Pierson" wrote: > The wooden shelter across the tracks from > the PRR Huntingdon station is, I believe, the H&BT station. Indeed, it is. Sanborn maps show it was constructed in the early years of this century. For a while, it was connected to the PRR station platform across the four-track main by a pedestrian underpass. If you are fortunate enough to visit HUNT when it is manned by the local transportation historical society, you can purchase color computerized reproductions of postcards showing the facilities over time. Jon Baughman, a co-author of the _From Coal to Glory_ series mentioned by George Pierson, has also recently published _Men of Iron_, which provides a very detailed look at the history of coke-fired iron smelting in N. Bedford County. Three blast furnaces operated along the H&BTM between 1868 and 1943. One of these was located in Everett and its grounds are now occupied by a Turnpike Commission maintenance facility (stock house piers, two aux. buildings, and the slag pile still remain, as to the bridge piers built by the H&BTM ca. 1912 to reach it). That book, too, is a gold mine of photographs of these blast furnaces as well as H&BTM images. I'll be presenting a talk on this subject on Friday as part of the "PRR-Talk" track in Altoona. regards, Vagel Keller > > PO Box 188, Saxton, PA 16678-0188 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:22:14 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Tuscan red origins Greetings to the group: I feel like I'm running my own thread on this Tuscan red question. I must apologize for not having been more specific in asking for a 19th century date. I appreciate the suggestions and speculations, but I am fairly certain the PRR was using Tuscan Red as a passenger car color long before the advent of all-steel cars in the first decade of this century. Leafing thru Burgess & Kennedy's Centennial History produced nothing of substance, although they quote a Railroad Gazette article of May 6, 1882 (pp.758-59) describing new dining cars "painted on the outside a rich, warm brown, bordered with a broad striking pattern in gold, carmine, black and green..." I doubt anyone mistook warm brown for Tuscan red. But look at the following item from the Janury 6, 1882-Terre Haute Express: "The T.H.&L. combination car No. 2 which was wrecked in the Otter Creek disaster, has been turned out of the shops and is in service under charge of Conductor Murray. It is of the color recently adopted by the Vandalia--Tuscan red." The TH&L was, of course, the Terre Haute & Logansport, which had been purchased in 1879 by William Riley McKeen, Terre Haute banker and majority owner of the Terre Haute & Indianapolis. The TH&I had then leased the TH&L, operating it along with the leased St. Louis, Vandalia & Terre Haute under the banner of "The Vandalia Line." What is important to note is that, at this point in time, McKeen's Vandalia Line--always referred to locally as the Vandalia or the Van--operated completely independently. The Pennsylvania, although it owned a majority of the StLV&TH stock, owned nary a share of the TH&I and therefore had no control over the line from Indianapolis to St. Louis. For a brief period in 1880-81, McKeen did share the Pan Handle's General Manager, Darius W. Caldwell as G.M. of the Vandalia, and as a result, retained a former Pan Handle man, Joseph Hill as his General Superintendent. But that may not necessarily mean that the Tuscan Red color scheme came from the Pennsylvania. Even if it did not, however, it presents the tantalizing possibility that either the Vandalia itself originated the color, or that it had its first official adoption on Lines West. Anyway, that's how I see it. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:52:45 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: errors-267882-52-abbuchan=familyconnect.net@onelist.com [mailto:errors-267882-52-abbuchan=familyconnect.net@onelist.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 6:26 PM To: dlundy20@hotmail.com; MIDEASTmodeler@onelist.com; SOUTHEASTmodeler@onelist.com; SMRF@listserv.dartmouth.edu; PRR@onelist.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: charles_castner.parti@pcusa.org; Stuthayer@aol.com; LINESWEST@aol.com; kyrail@bardstown.com; jkkuebler@yahoo.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky Rick stated> In There's general agreement that the PRR dumped Lake coal at Erie, Cleveland, Sandusky, and some site in Chicago. Only the last two of these are suspects for dumping L&N-originated Lake coal. ================================================== Actually PRR dumped about 25-30% of all the lake coal sent to all railroad lake ports between 1918 and 1947. It operated coal docks at Erie, Ashtabula, Cleveland and Sandusky. Sandusky was the heaviest tonnage spot of all PRR locations and after 1923 was the biggest single coal port of all railroads on the lakes. It typically handled coal off the N&W. Ashtabula and Cleveland swapped places for PRR's number two spot for many years until 1925 when Ashtabula became the permanent number two PRR facility with Cleveland third. Erie always handled the least amount of tonnage. Unfortunately points of origin are not specified. Source: Undated report PRR Chief of Freight Transportation - "Lake Coal Tonnage Dumped - By Roads and Ports" covering period 1918-1947. Al There was a thread that wove through PRR-Talk some months ago, concerning Eastern Kentucky coal traffic through DeCoursey, interchanged to the PRR/Panhandle at Undercliff Yard (Cincinnati), then up the Little Miami to Xenia and Columbus, then dispatched from Grogan Yard up the Sandusky Branch. All agreed that this traffic existed in large quantity, and no one cited any primary historical sources to back this up. In putting together a slide show for PRR in Dayton and Xenia, I did not find one picture of coal trains coming up from Cincinnati to use in my presentation. BTW, Pennsy fans seem to agree that Lake coal on the Sandusky Branch was primarily a summer activity, coming mostly from N&W and L&N, but also sometimes off the C&O. By winter, the Sandusky Branch had reverted to the status of a minor branch carrying local traffic. Virtually every railfan picture taken on this branch seems to have been of the J-1's (2-10-4) and the leased 5014? class Santa Fe 2-10-4 steam power that worked the Branch in summer 1956, the last season of PRR steam in Ohio. Similarly, there was later a much more modest email thread about L&N coal traffic interchanged to the Pennsy at Louisville and going north to Indy, where it joined a flood of PRR Vincennes Branch coal that went to Chicago via Logansport. As seems to be normal for PRR Lines West subjects, there are no articles and few commentators on this sort of thing. It's an open joke in the Pennsy historical society that the railroad might as well end at Pittsburgh for all the info we have (note: this isn't really true, but it feels good to say it when you can't find the data you need). My own opinion is that the odds of ever finding more info are not great, but are improved if determined fans over time curate what materials they can uncover. For example, Charlie Castner (L&NRHS), Tish Knoeller (Ky Ry Museum) and I are currently working to organize and preserve info on the L&N and on Louisville-area railroading from the Jack Fravert estate. <<2. Do you know which L&N EK sub minesshipped to which docks that the PRR handled?>> Know of no detailed traffic info of this kind. Normally, this kind of data comes from waybill files, mostly destroyed for both railroads concerned. But Stuart Thayer might have better info on this. << 3. If not, do you anybody that might know these answers other that the L&N Historical Society?>> It's conceivable others (including the Society, Kentucky Railway Museum, or the University of Louisville archives) have hard data. Best way to access people's info is to meet them face to face (get data and stories, rumors and myths), but I've also copied several folks who may chime in and offer more info - or directions to info - than I can. Rick Tipton Louisville KY PRRT&HS L&NRHS --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- ONElist: home to the world's liveliest email communities. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:25:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service"(reply) Jerry and all, I knew Tom and Bob would drag me out on this thread. Bob is right the X-40B was the original "MERCHANDISE SERVICE" box car and he is right again in the quantity build and the numbers. Tom points out that the double door cars were limited to six production cars with centered double doors. The X-40B was designed as an all welded high tensile steel car and in fact it did have 4/4 dread naught ends built in Altoona in 1948. And Tom is also right in the fact that the cars had seven foot doors, a new venture for Pennsy at the time, eight foot doors did not enter into design until after 1950 for the PRR. There are some unique features to this cars (as seems to be the norm for Pennsy) like the "beveled" roof eve and the use of narrower than normal side sheets which followed the into the production of the X-41 cars. The roof panels were a late use of the Stanray panel roof (AKA Murphy panel roof) considering the rebuild program of the X-29B began with this roof but at some point switched over to the Stanray diagonal panel roof as well as the X-26 rebuilds did. The underframe was also all welded, a departure from the industry standard at the time. The absence of a full length side sill was by no means strange for the time but by the mid 50's even the 50 foot single doors bought or built by Pennsy would include this feature. The car is a good choice for scratch building as the ends can be bought or cut of several different kits, and the side sheathing is smooth and could be made from sheet styrene, the roof could be a challenge but my brother ED has offered several article on making panel roofs in both HO or O Scale, not terribly tough. The article that Tom refers to in MR (Jan '70) has very good drawings on the car, but the author attempts a then "stand-in" kitbash from the Kurtz Kraft PS-1 and I think we all now realize that the ends were wrong and the roof was wrong, but it did stimulate my interest enough at the time to at least buy the magazine. Neat car, good history for another ground breaking effort by the P Co. And oh yes, I forgot to address the 7' doors, remember labor was cheaper then and fork lift/trucks were a rare item at most docks at the time. They were most commonly found at military bases, you see our government even back then could afford the one thousand dollar hammers. Feed your head! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:26:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lost Logansport Notes Gize, Over a year ago, I wrote a couple of long pieces on Logansport. Now that I want to resend them to some folks, I can't locate them. I suspect a big crash of my AOL installation some months back is the culprit. Did anybody else save this material electronically? Could they send it back to me? Thanks, Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:30:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trains I can remember (growing up in the late 1950's-1969 period) Pennsy passenger trains going through Baltimore were often similar to todays railfan trips with every car being different. There were cars in various trains from NH, ACL, SAL, FEC, RF&P, Southern, C&O as well as Pennsy cars in different paint styles. The comment about Pennsy having to paint their cars to match the connecting roads isn't exactly 100% true either. I've seen a lot of "Pennsy" cars that, after further examination, had RF&P, N&W,etc. on them. I know the PRR owned the N&W at one time but they used a different color Tuscan and different striping. The cars I mention here were 100% Pennsy except for the N&W on the letterboards. N&W used a lighter, redder better-looking Tuscan red than Pennsy. I sure miss Baltimore and seeing those great trains rolling through behind G-motors. Certain beats the ugly stuff they call trains/engines today! Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:46:37 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines on the PRR in Pennsylvania, C.D. No. 5, >I just had the good luck to be given this document. It was published by the >PRR and is 80 pages in length and contains to large foldout maps in the back. >The full title is "Anthracite and Bituminous Coal Mines on The Pennsylvania >Railroad and Lateral Line." ..... >Middle Division Fans, all of the coal traffic was generated by the East >Broadtop with 7 mines and the Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and >Coal Company with 47 mines, the Bald Eagle Branch with 5 mines, and the >Clearfield Branch with 95 mines. I am curious about the Bald Eagle branch and its 5 mines--I wonder if these in fact were located on the Snow Shoe branch, which joined the Bald Eagle at Wingate (Snow Shoe Intersection, as the PRR called it). I cannot think of any tipples on the Bald Eagle itself, and there are no coal deposits in the Bald Eagle Valley proper. Just a caution here that not all mines shown in these coal directories-even Conrail's most recent-were active all at once. For example, depending on the season of the year and state of the economy, it is possible that there may have been as few as 20 or 30 active tipples on the Clearfield branch in 1949 (or maybe not even that many). Some also remained on the books for years after shutting down permanently. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:03:13 -0400 Hey, what about Sodus Point? They dumped (lake) coal there too, but it came largely from (sic) New York Central origins in central Penna. My $.02 worth. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com To: dlundy20@hotmail.com ; MIDEASTmodeler@onelist.com ; SOUTHEASTmodeler@onelist.com ; SMRF@listserv.dartmouth.edu ; PRR@onelist.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: charles_castner.parti@pcusa.org ; Stuthayer@aol.com ; LINESWEST@aol.com ; kyrail@bardstown.com ; jkkuebler@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, August 12, 1999 7:38 PM Subject: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky >In a message dated 8/11/99 10:16:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >dlundy20@hotmail.com writes: > ><< Rick: > > David Lundy on this end. I am part of the southeastern email talk and have > a couple of questions for you. > > 1. I know the PRR handle L&N coal from Decoursey to docks in Ohio. Do you > which docks? I was thinking Sandusky was the main one. Can you confirm?>> > >Hi Dave, > >There's been a lot of email interest in the dumping of Lake coal off the >Pennsy. There's general agreement that the PRR dumped Lake coal at Erie, >Cleveland, Sandusky, and some site in Chicago. Only the last two of these >are suspects for dumping L&N-originated Lake coal. > >There was a thread that wove through PRR-Talk some months ago, concerning >Eastern Kentucky coal traffic through DeCoursey, interchanged to the >PRR/Panhandle at Undercliff Yard (Cincinnati), then up the Little Miami to >Xenia and Columbus, then dispatched from Grogan Yard up the Sandusky Branch. >All agreed that this traffic existed in large quantity, and no one cited any >primary historical sources to back this up. In putting together a slide show >for PRR in Dayton and Xenia, I did not find one picture of coal trains coming >up from Cincinnati to use in my presentation. > >BTW, Pennsy fans seem to agree that Lake coal on the Sandusky Branch was >primarily a summer activity, coming mostly from N&W and L&N, but also >sometimes off the C&O. By winter, the Sandusky Branch had reverted to the >status of a minor branch carrying local traffic. Virtually every railfan >picture taken on this branch seems to have been of the J-1's (2-10-4) and the >leased 5014? class Santa Fe 2-10-4 steam power that worked the Branch in >summer 1956, the last season of PRR steam in Ohio. > >Similarly, there was later a much more modest email thread about L&N coal >traffic interchanged to the Pennsy at Louisville and going north to Indy, >where it joined a flood of PRR Vincennes Branch coal that went to Chicago via >Logansport. > >As seems to be normal for PRR Lines West subjects, there are no articles and >few commentators on this sort of thing. It's an open joke in the Pennsy >historical society that the railroad might as well end at Pittsburgh for all >the info we have (note: this isn't really true, but it feels good to say it >when you can't find the data you need). > >My own opinion is that the odds of ever finding more info are not great, but >are improved if determined fans over time curate what materials they can >uncover. For example, Charlie Castner (L&NRHS), Tish Knoeller (Ky Ry Museum) >and I are currently working to organize and preserve info on the L&N and on >Louisville-area railroading from the Jack Fravert estate. > > <<2. Do you know which L&N EK sub minesshipped to which docks that the > PRR handled?>> > >Know of no detailed traffic info of this kind. Normally, this kind of data >comes from waybill files, mostly destroyed for both railroads concerned. But >Stuart Thayer might have better info on this. > ><< 3. If not, do you anybody that might know these answers other that >the > L&N Historical Society?>> > >It's conceivable others (including the Society, Kentucky Railway Museum, or >the University of Louisville archives) have hard data. Best way to access >people's info is to meet them face to face (get data and stories, rumors and >myths), but I've also copied several folks who may chime in and offer more >info - or directions to info - than I can. > >Rick Tipton >Louisville KY >PRRT&HS >L&NRHS > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:57:21 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky >Hey, what about Sodus Point? They dumped (lake) coal there too, but it came >largely from (sic) New York Central origins in central Penna. A lot of the coal loaded at Sodus Point originated on the PRR's Clearfield branch, via the yard at Osceola Mills and came down to Vail on the Bald Eagle branch for shipment north. I don't recall much coal off the nyc (from Cherry Tree and Clearfield via Avis) going to Sodus Point. If some did, the nyc must have handled it themselves north up the Fall Brook, I wonder where they interchanged it in NY state with PRR. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:35:44 -0400 (EDT) RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > There's been a lot of email interest in the dumping of Lake coal off the > Pennsy. There's general agreement that the PRR dumped Lake coal at Erie, > Cleveland, Sandusky, and some site in Chicago. Only the last two of these > are suspects for dumping L&N-originated Lake coal. Gentlemen: some freight schedules may help. I've gone through the ones on my site and searched for the text "L&N". I have NOT filtered it further i.e. I have not filtered only coal trains. Start at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ and look up these trains: CI-4 CIN-1, 2 CO-1, 2, 3 CO-8 DC-8, 9 IL-4 LCL-1, 5, 9 LM-5 NS-7, 8 SC-22 Have fun. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills/Phillipsburg to the Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:55:51 -0400 In 1958 when I first started working on the PRR, the Snow Shoe branch with its switchbacks had just been abandoned. But there was a heavy coal mining operation on the Clearfield secondary track. There was a small enginehouse at Osceola Mills where a half dozen Alco RS-11s were stabled. If I remember correctly, these units came to Altoona every 90 days but had their monthlys performed at Osceola Mills. At any rate I drove up there one day from Altoona and rode a coal drag out of Osceola. Coal was marshalled there and once a day a trio of RS-11s would lug 1/2 the train up a steep grade for five miles to a siding called "Summit". They would then return to Osceola for the other half (hence the term "doubling the hill" in today's vernacular that nobody knows where it came from) (another term people use that originated on the railroad is "kicker in the consist" and they know nothing from whence that term came either). At any rate to finish the story, the Osceola turn left the loads at a place called Park that was about a mile and a half short of Tyrone on the Bald Eagle for pickup by a crew out of Altoona (usually Baldwin sharks). The Osceola crew then returned to Osceola with the empties. The mines were primarily in the Phillipsburg area. Oh yes, I almost left out the best part of the story. On the downside of the mountain from summit, there was a horseshoe curve that would put the real one to shame for beauty. Unfortunately, there were no know roads leading into the area, but it was sure fun squealing around it in the cab of an Alco roadwitcher!!! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com To: mxb13@psu.edu ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines on the PRR in Pennsylvania, C.D. No.5,2/15/49 >In a message dated 08/13/1999 8:55:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mxb13@psu.edu >writes: > ><< I am curious about the Bald Eagle branch and its 5 mines--I wonder if these > in fact were located on the Snow Shoe branch, which joined the Bald Eagle > at Wingate (Snow Shoe Intersection, as the PRR called it). I cannot think > of any tipples on the Bald Eagle itself, and there are no coal deposits in > the Bald Eagle Valley proper. >> > >Might these have been on the Belefonte Central. I remember reading something >about small hand dug mines on the BC near the point where the BC doubled back >on itself to get into State College. Is there any information on the number >of car loadings? This could give an idea of the activity at the various >mines. > > >Rich Orr > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:51:55 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines on the PRR in Pennsylvania, C.D. No. No, the BFC never loaded coal -- all of it was inbound. You may be thinking of iron ore--in its early days, the BFC did carry hand-dug ore. -mike ><< I am curious about the Bald Eagle branch and its 5 mines--I wonder if these > in fact were located on the Snow Shoe branch, which joined the Bald Eagle > at Wingate (Snow Shoe Intersection, as the PRR called it). I cannot think > of any tipples on the Bald Eagle itself, and there are no coal deposits in > the Bald Eagle Valley proper. >> > >Might these have been on the Belefonte Central. I remember reading something >about small hand dug mines on the BC near the point where the BC doubled back >on itself to get into State College. Is there any information on the number >of car loadings? This could give an idea of the activity at the various >mines. > > >Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, to Sodus Point Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:19:21 -0400 I remember a lot of NYC coal coming off the Clearfield branch and going to Geneva to a power plant there. They used the Pennsy from Williamsport to Himrods, then NYC Geneva Branch. There was a crew agreement where every six months the power and crews switched from NYC to Pennsy (and back) at Newberry. I thought some of that coal went to Sodus as well. Could be wrong. I have done that before. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Michael Bezilla To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky >>Hey, what about Sodus Point? They dumped (lake) coal there too, but it came >>largely from (sic) New York Central origins in central Penna. > >A lot of the coal loaded at Sodus Point originated on the PRR's Clearfield >branch, via the yard at Osceola Mills and came down to Vail on the Bald >Eagle branch for shipment north. I don't recall much coal off the nyc (from >Cherry Tree and Clearfield via Avis) going to Sodus Point. If some did, the >nyc must have handled it themselves north up the Fall Brook, I wonder where >they interchanged it in NY state with PRR. -mike > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:31:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines on the PRR in Pennsylvania, C.D. No. In a message dated 08/13/1999 8:55:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mxb13@psu.edu writes: << I am curious about the Bald Eagle branch and its 5 mines--I wonder if these in fact were located on the Snow Shoe branch, which joined the Bald Eagle at Wingate (Snow Shoe Intersection, as the PRR called it). I cannot think of any tipples on the Bald Eagle itself, and there are no coal deposits in the Bald Eagle Valley proper. >> Might these have been on the Belefonte Central. I remember reading something about small hand dug mines on the BC near the point where the BC doubled back on itself to get into State College. Is there any information on the number of car loadings? This could give an idea of the activity at the various mines. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:35:25 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills/Phillipsburg to the >In 1958 when I first started working on the PRR, the Snow Shoe branch with >its switchbacks had just been abandoned. But there was a heavy coal mining >operation on the Clearfield secondary track. There was a small enginehouse >at Osceola Mills where a half dozen Alco RS-11s were stabled. Yes, the RS11's were synonymous with coal hauling out of Osceola, PRR kep them in that service just about to the coming of Penn Central. I grew up in Osceola and remember them very well. Occasionally Altoona would send over a GP7 or GP9 just to make things interesting, and at least twice I remember an A-B-A set of F's worked a week or so, but they weren't suited to the mine runs. >At any rate I drove up there one day from Altoona and rode a coal drag out >of Osceola. Coal was marshalled there and once a day a trio of RS-11s would >lug 1/2 the train up a steep grade for five miles to a siding called >"Summit". They would then return to Osceola for the other half (hence the >term "doubling the hill" in today's vernacular that nobody knows where it >came from) (another term people use that originated on the railroad is >"kicker in the consist" and they know nothing from whence that term came >either). If I recall correctly, these trains even when assembled at Sandy Ridge summit were still well under 100 cars. The descent down into the Bald Eagle valley was something like 2.6 or 2.8 percent and you couldn't put too much tonnage behind 3 RS11's down that grade. >At any rate to finish the story, the Osceola turn left the loads at a place >called Park that was about a mile and a half short of Tyrone on the Bald >Eagle for pickup by a crew out of Altoona (usually Baldwin sharks). The >Osceola crew then returned to Osceola with the empties. The mines were >primarily in the Phillipsburg area. The mty trains headed back to Osceola often needed a push up to the summit. They usually got the helper that also served as the Bald Eagle branch pusher, sometimes that was a Centipede. >Oh yes, I almost left out the best part of the story. On the downside of >the mountain from summit, there was a horseshoe curve that would put the >real one to shame for beauty. Unfortunately, there were no know roads >leading into the area, but it was sure fun squealing around it in the cab of >an Alco roadwitcher!!! That would be the Big Fill, as it's known to locals. It curves around Emeigh's Gap very much like Horseshoe does further west along the Allgheny Front. It is still just as inaccessible, and the track has been gone for 25 years or so, but for Pennsy fans it's well worth a walk from the summit down to the fill and back. Mainly when there are no leaves on the trees or marauding reptiles about. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stan105d@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:19:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Friendship and fealty Rich, Thanks for the much needed post... Needs to be said and you have done a perfect job in expressing what I, and many, have been feeling for the last year or so. The bickering gets old and ads not an ounce of the desired friendship / sharing in a common interest that we all are seeking in this "Hobby" (or whatever) of being railfans / modellers. PRR / CR Fans, of course (all aspects and roads for that matter). Personally, such interaction and cynacism that seems so prevelent recently has kept me away from the social activities side of the hobby ....Conventions, PRRT&HS Chapter meetings, even railfaning with friends.... Just don't find much enjoyment in this "down side" outlook from what seems like everyone, Sure as the devil takes the fun / pleasure out of the hobby... My two cents....Just had to be said.. No offense meant to anyone, but perhaps just another voice saying "lets go back to enjoying trains / railfanning / and yes, that special friendship that is known between people who can share in a common interest / hobby.... To all....Have a good one. To you, Rich, thanks for saying what you have. Was long overdue Stan Ebersole Member ..PRRT&HS (National & Northern Central Chapter)... HBG Chapter, NRHS... Modelling Northern Central ( PRR) WAGO to YORK.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:25:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Michael Bezilla >>Hey, what about Sodus Point? They dumped (lake) coal there too, but it came >>largely from (sic) New York Central origins in central Penna. > > A lot of the coal loaded at Sodus Point originated on the PRR's Clearfield > branch, via the yard at Osceola Mills and came down to Vail on the Bald > Eagle branch for shipment north. I don't recall much coal off the nyc (from > Cherry Tree and Clearfield via Avis) going to Sodus Point. If some did, the > nyc must have handled it themselves north up the Fall Brook, I wonder where > they interchanged it in NY state with PRR. -mike Between Coloroso's book on the Elmira Branch and Gunnarson's book on the Northern Central branch a lot of these questions are answered. >From my recollection of these two books, most of the coal heading up the Elmira branch at Williamsport was via the Bald Eagle branch. Most of it coming from Clearfield, or from Altoona and beyond. The Bald Eagle branch served as a "bridge route". The long coal trains travelled up the Elmira branch to a marshalling yard south of Elmira, where the trains were broken down into shorter lengths that would be managable by the short yard tracks at Sodus Point. Of hand I don't recall the name of this town/location, but Stanley rings a bell. The NYC, Erie, and another road met the PRR line at or before Elmira. The PRR broke off above Elmira and continued to Sodus Point. Regardless of "where" the NYC interchanged, there was enough joint traffic that they shared motive power. Actually, the NYC had more coal to move than the PRR and often their motive power was more prevalent on a ratio of 2:1. It should also be noted that the NYC's coal was not bound for Sodus point. It broke off several miles below Sodus Bay and was bound for a new power plant (again, name escapes me, but I know it is in one of the two sources named above). Hope this helps. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:18:12 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky > >The long coal trains travelled up the Elmira branch to a marshalling yard >south of Elmira, where the trains were broken down into shorter lengths that >would be managable by the short yard tracks at Sodus Point. Of hand I don't >recall the name of this town/location, but Stanley rings a bell. I'll bet you mean Southport. -m ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:17:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills/Phillipsburg to > That would be the Big Fill, as it's known to locals. It curves around > Emeigh's Gap very much like Horseshoe does further west along the Allgheny > Front. It is still just as inaccessible, and the track has been gone for 25 > years or so, but for Pennsy fans it's well worth a walk from the summit > down to the fill and back. Mainly when there are no leaves on the trees or > marauding reptiles about. If come fall other people would be up for something like this I'd love to come. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:44:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills/Phillipsburg to From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Derrick J Brashear > >> That would be the Big Fill, as it's known to locals. It curves around >> Emeigh's Gap very much like Horseshoe does further west along the Allgheny >> Front. It is still just as inaccessible, and the track has been gone for 25 >> years or so, but for Pennsy fans it's well worth a walk from the summit >> down to the fill and back. Mainly when there are no leaves on the trees or >> marauding reptiles about. > > If come fall other people would be up for something like this I'd love to come. Mike Bezilla wrote several branch histories for the "Hobo's Guide to the Pennsy" on my "Keystone Crossings" web site. One of them is on the Clearfield Branch. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/clearfield.html. There is a photo of the Big Fill! P.S. I am always accepting editors for writing branch histories for "the Guide". If interested, please contact me. You do not have to be a professional historian, as some fear! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:09:58 -0400 Jerry: Please see my earlier post on this subject. The "shared power" arrangement you referred to was actually a six-month on six-month off pooling agreement where the crews AND the power went from PRR to NYC. Depends on which half of the year you were watching. The Geneva branch (where the power plant was located) branched off at M.P. 38 Himrods, about 20 miles south of Stanley. The Canandagua Branch left at Stanley where there was a big A&P Katsup making plant. The Sodus Line crossed the NYC main at Newark which was 16 miles above Stanley. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky >>From: Michael Bezilla > >>>Hey, what about Sodus Point? They dumped (lake) coal there too, but it came >>>largely from (sic) New York Central origins in central Penna. >> >> A lot of the coal loaded at Sodus Point originated on the PRR's Clearfield >> branch, via the yard at Osceola Mills and came down to Vail on the Bald >> Eagle branch for shipment north. I don't recall much coal off the nyc (from >> Cherry Tree and Clearfield via Avis) going to Sodus Point. If some did, the >> nyc must have handled it themselves north up the Fall Brook, I wonder where >> they interchanged it in NY state with PRR. -mike > >Between Coloroso's book on the Elmira Branch and Gunnarson's book on the >Northern Central branch a lot of these questions are answered. > >>From my recollection of these two books, most of the coal heading up the >Elmira branch at Williamsport was via the Bald Eagle branch. Most of it >coming from Clearfield, or from Altoona and beyond. The Bald Eagle branch >served as a "bridge route". > >The long coal trains travelled up the Elmira branch to a marshalling yard >south of Elmira, where the trains were broken down into shorter lengths that >would be managable by the short yard tracks at Sodus Point. Of hand I don't >recall the name of this town/location, but Stanley rings a bell. > >The NYC, Erie, and another road met the PRR line at or before Elmira. The >PRR broke off above Elmira and continued to Sodus Point. > >Regardless of "where" the NYC interchanged, there was enough joint traffic >that they shared motive power. Actually, the NYC had more coal to move than >the PRR and often their motive power was more prevalent on a ratio of 2:1. > >It should also be noted that the NYC's coal was not bound for Sodus point. >It broke off several miles below Sodus Bay and was bound for a new power >plant (again, name escapes me, but I know it is in one of the two sources >named above). > >Hope this helps. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:18:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky > The long coal trains travelled up the Elmira branch to a marshalling yard > south of Elmira, where the trains were broken down into shorter lengths that > would be managable by the short yard tracks at Sodus Point. Of hand I don't > recall the name of this town/location, but Stanley rings a bell. I thought Stanley was further north, where the Canandaigua branch split off, and the yard you meant was Southport? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:04:52 -0400 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Tuscan red origins Richard Wallis wrote: > I feel like I'm running my own thread on this Tuscan red question. I > must apologize for not having been more specific in asking for a 19th > century date. I appreciate the suggestions and speculations, but I am > fairly certain the PRR was using Tuscan Red as a passenger car color > long before the advent of all-steel cars in the first decade of this > century. > > But look at the following item from the Janury 6, 1882-Terre Haute > Express: > "The T.H.&L. combination car No. 2 which was wrecked in the Otter Creek > disaster, has been turned out of the shops and is in service under > charge of Conductor Murray. It is of the color recently adopted by the > Vandalia--Tuscan red." > > But that may not necessarily mean that the Tuscan Red > color scheme came from the Pennsylvania. Even if it did not, however, > it presents the tantalizing possibility that either the Vandalia itself > originated the color, or that it had its first official adoption on > Lines West. Greetings Richard and list, Thanks, Richard, for the very interesting information on the early use of Tuscan Red by the Vandalia. While doing research at the Pennsylvania State Archives, I chanced on some information on this subject. Apparently, the PRR itself once tried to determine the date Tuscan Red was made standard for passenger cars. The oldest drawing their researcher could find was Tracing No. 3180B, "Lettering and Striping on Standard Passenger Cars, PRR Classes PD, PE and PF," Altoona, January 1882. The drawing showed the body and wheels (!) painted Tuscan Red. Other information turned up by the PRR's researcher showed that Tuscan Red was standard at least prior to April 11, 1878. Prior to using Tuscan Red, the exterior was painted a Chrome Green, commonly called "Carriage Green". Bob Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:50:54 -0400 Subject: KILL THREAD -- Re: [PRR] Re: Friendship and fealty From: "Jerry Britton" The thread on the SUBJECT shown above -- and those related -- needs to end. It's been many, many days since any negative discussion -- or references thereto -- has been made on PRR-Talk. I think we all agreed it was time to move on. Whether you agree or disagree with the existence of two lists, they do exist. It's up to you to opt to join one, the other, or both. You are certainly welcome on mine, and I will certainly not hold it against you to join the other. It appears that one is highly technical and one is "for the rest of us". Both have something to offer. But let's try not to discuss the matter any further. The recent post to PRR-Talk on the above thread is perpetuating hostile feelings that, in my opinion, don't need to be there any more. I realize that the PRR-FAX list has been discussing a "list war" in depth and it has been their primary subject matter. (I have been forwarded the digests and 5 of 9 posts from the 8/12 digests were about the "list war".) PRR-FAX may think there is a war, but there is not. PRR-Talk had over 50 posts on both Tuesday and Wednesday, and over 30 yesterday. None were on the aforementioned topic. So, if you are on both lists and you wish to discuss the "list war", please do not cross-post to PRR-Talk. It is a dead issue here! It would be appreciated if someone on PRR-FAX would post this message there. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Friendship and fealty Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:14:16 -0400 Railfan rivalry has been going on as long as I can remember (45 + years ) I remember when fans ignored PCC cars and only went for the old cars. i remember even better the "anti-diesel" crowd who thought the era of the railfan was OVER (1955-57). I was a lone ranger out there in the late 1950s trying to shoot the centipedes before they finally crapped out for the last time. There have always been slide shows at railfan meetings where some guys felt others were hogging the projector to show what they considered "spam" in today's vernacular. You guys have got to just lighten up and enjoy life living with the idiocyncricies of the railfan lot. Just keep your finger poised on the "delete" button and don't be so darned serious. Oh yes, and get out there and shoot those F40s before they too become collector's items! My $.05 cents worth. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Stan105d@aol.com To: rwallis1@earthlink.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com ; PRR@onelist.com Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Friendship and fealty >Rich, > >Thanks for the much needed post... Needs to be said and you have done a >perfect >job in expressing what I, and many, have been feeling for the last year or >so. The bickering gets old and ads not an ounce of the desired friendship / >sharing in a common interest that we all are seeking in this "Hobby" (or >whatever) of being railfans / modellers. PRR / CR Fans, of course (all >aspects and roads for that matter). > >Personally, such interaction and cynacism that seems so prevelent recently >has kept me away from the social activities side of the hobby >....Conventions, PRRT&HS Chapter meetings, even railfaning with friends.... >Just don't find much enjoyment in this "down side" outlook from what seems >like everyone, Sure as the devil takes the fun / pleasure out of the >hobby... > >My two cents....Just had to be said.. >No offense meant to anyone, but perhaps just another voice saying "lets go >back to enjoying trains / railfanning / and yes, that special friendship that >is known between people who can share in a common interest / hobby.... > >To all....Have a good one. To you, Rich, thanks for saying what you have. >Was long overdue > >Stan Ebersole >Member ..PRRT&HS (National & Northern Central Chapter)... HBG Chapter, NRHS... >Modelling Northern Central ( PRR) WAGO to YORK.... > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:52:34 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills/Phillipsburg to >> That would be the Big Fill, as it's known to locals. It curves around >> Emeigh's Gap very much like Horseshoe does further west along the Allgheny >> Front. It is still just as inaccessible, and the track has been gone for 25 >> years or so, but for Pennsy fans it's well worth a walk from the summit >> down to the fill and back. Mainly when there are no leaves on the trees or >> marauding reptiles about. > >If come fall other people would be up for something like this I'd love to >come. > >-D Others certainly know more about the line than I do, but I would be glad to serve as a "guide" of sorts. After Nov. 1 is our best bet. From the summit around the fill and back is anywhere from 2-4 hours, depending on how much history (and ecology) one wishes to soak up. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:44:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H&BT As a followup (which may be information you already know), an old back shop of the H&BTMRR survives at Hopewell, Pa. (Pa route 26 north of Everett, Pa.) It is currently owned by a local historical society and is usually only open by appointment or on selected weekends. The Altoona-Blair County Photo Society visited here previously. Great photo opportunities, especially if morning sunlight is available. Old tools and equipment in a weathered wood building along what was once the original right-of-way. Some years ago I was aware that one or two of the original H&BTMRR locomotives survived ....somewhere. One was at the Livonia, Lakeville (?) & Avon in upstate N.Y. some years back. The H&BTMRR last ran in August 1954. A short film on this last run was made by the local T.V. station, and later donated to the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, NRHS; we subsequently loaned the film (black & white, mostly silent) to a local historical group which operates the Coal Mining Museum in Robertsdale, Pa.(north of Hopewell via Pa route 26), in a vintage, well maintained Theater..the Reality Theater. Have not seen the actual film in several years, but its around here somewhere....I think. David Seidel Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] PA-1color Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:15:58 -0400 Talkers, I've got a set of P2000 Pa units undecorated. I'm modeling 1954-1958, What would be the most common paint scheme to use. Thanks in Advance, Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Catenary Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:13:17 -0400 Listers, Does Anyone have the handout from the Phila. Chapter PRRTH&S Modelers meeting on Catenary From April 24. Thanks, Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:25:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills/Phillipsburg The last paragraph of Bill Volkmer's account of coal shipments from Osceola Mills to Tyrone and Altoona refers the big horseshoe curve near the bottom of the mountain. This 'horseshoe curve' was, indeed, spectacular as referred-to in Bill's description. As an aside to the "coal report," this horseshoe curve was the scene of a particularly disastrous wreck on Tuesday, May 30, 1893 (Memorial Day*): The Walter L. Main circus train. Today, the railroad no longer exists here, but a historical plaque stands as a reminder, visible along a township road. The plaque reads: On this ground occurred one of the greatest circus rain wrecks in the history of the world. At about 4:30 a.m. the Walter L. Main Great Circus Train ran out of control as it descended the Tyrone mountain, shot out over the curve and wrecked at McCann's crossing. All but the sleeping cars left the track. Most of the crew in the derailed cars were killed. A field hospital was set up where the school now stands to care for the injured. Local residents joined in the hunt for the wild animals, all of which escaped into the countryside and mountains. A Bengal Tiger, later shot, bounded over the fence at a nearby farm where Hannah Friday was milking a cow. Hannah escaped, but the tiger killed the cow. Seventy-two horses were either killed or injured in the wreck. All the animals that were not shot were finally accounted for. The snakes were never recovered. A memorial was held at the site of the wreck. Then everyone came to Tyrone, where wonderful people with open arms offered their homes to the heart-broken ones of the circus. Every evening throughout the summer, in appreciation, the circus bands played concerts. The circus reorganized with new wagons, acts, horses and other animals on east 12th St. in Tyrone. Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum exhibits include video accounts of this event on their 2nd floor and a booklet on the circus train wreck is available at a nominal charge. * Late May in the late 1800's was known for two particular disasters. The Walter L. Main Circus Train wreck described above and May 31, 1889 a few years prior, for the great Johnstown Flood. David Seidel Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:52:57 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills >The last paragraph of Bill Volkmer's account of coal shipments from Osceola >Mills to Tyrone and Altoona refers the big horseshoe curve near the bottom of >the mountain. >This 'horseshoe curve' was, indeed, spectacular as referred-to in Bill's >description. As an aside to the "coal report," this horseshoe curve was the >scene of a particularly disastrous wreck on Tuesday, May 30, 1893 (Memorial >Day*): The Walter L. Main circus train. Yes, the train derailed at McCann's Crossing, but that is the last curve before the Clearfield branch comes up paralllel to the Bald Eagle branch near Vail. The train descended the Big Fill ok, lost control further down the mountain, and was going too fast to make the final curve at McCanns. The grade here is pretty much level, it's the valley floor. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:25:54 -0400 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Tuscan red origins > > While doing research at the Pennsylvania State Archives, I chanced on some > information on this subject. Apparently, the PRR itself once tried to > determine the date Tuscan Red was made standard for passenger cars. The > oldest drawing their researcher could find was Tracing No. 3180B, "Lettering > and Striping on Standard Passenger Cars, PRR Classes PD, PE and PF," > Altoona, January 1882. The drawing showed the body and wheels (!) painted > Tuscan Red. Other information turned up by the PRR's researcher showed that > Tuscan Red was standard at least prior to April 11, 1878. Prior to using > Tuscan Red, the exterior was painted a Chrome Green, commonly called > "Carriage Green". > > Bob Johnson Chrome Green - wasn't that the arsenic-laced paint that poisoned so many kids back then in a precursor hazard to the later lead paint and PCB scares? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:26:14 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] PA-1color Hello to Christopher and the list, As a modeller of the New York and Long Branch, albeit in 1948, the PAs were very active in New Jersey in the time frame you're interested in. There are pictures of them in both the Tuscan Red five stripe scheme with large numberboards (which is what I modelled, albeit with an Athearn PA) and in the single striped freight scheme; for the 1954-58 time frame, both are plausible. Naturally, my diesel reference books are packed away in storage ( I only had enough space for the steam books, which should tell you where my bias is), so I'm dredging this up from memory. PAs (AP20s) 5752 and 5753 were in the tuscan red five stripe scheme during this time frame. I remember these two because I was trying to decide which of them to model; I ended up choosing the 5752 because it had a single chime horn, versus the multi-chime horn on the 5753. John Stroup's Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines book from Morning Sun has several shots of the PAs in both the Tuscan Red and Dark Green Locomotive Enamel finishes. If I'd done my engine a year later, I could have used the P2K engines, but I'm happy with mine. The only real changes I made to my Athearn unit were filling in the pilot (which you won't have to do), sanding off the dynamic brake hatch (tedious, which you also won't have to do), adding the antenna set from Cal Scale, changing to NWSL wheelsets, sanding off the old numberboards, and adding the large numberboards from Cal Scale. I used Champion Decal set EH378, dulux gold five stripe passenger diesel set. If you want to do the DGLE scheme, their EH78F set would be appropriate. Hope this helps, Doug Kisala "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Talkers, > I've got a set of P2000 Pa units undecorated. I'm modeling > 1954-1958, What would be the most common paint scheme to use. > > Thanks in Advance, > > Chris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:57:46 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] PA color schemes, 1954-58, continued Hello list, In rereading the original post on PA color schemes (I'm fond of emailing first and thinking later...), as far as which would be the more common scheme, without statistics to back me up, I recall more photos of the Tuscan red five stripe engines than the DGLE engines. This is not to say that there were more engines in Tuscan red, but there were certainly more photographers trackside on the New York and Long Branch that on the PRSL during the period in question. By the way, the PAs often ran doubleheaded on the NYLB (they were deemed slightly unreliable), either with themselves or with a K4s Pacific, defeating the purpose of dieselization. Perhaps this was one place where their big GE traction motors couldn't overcome their crankshaft problems. Shots of the engines on the PRSL often show them working singly, with some MUing. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:49:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Sleeping cars in thru service In a message dated 99-08-12 10:14:47 EDT, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << My question is, why was the PRR so accommodating when other RRs treated the consistency of their consists as sacred? I have a guess. The appearance of "foreign" cars in PRR trains was an advertisement of the fact that you could get anywhere in the country on the PRR. Their >> I did a quick research project using a 4/29/51 public Form 4. This date was probably about the height of the "coast-to-coast" craze. There are no instances in this TT of a through car scheduled in "fleet leaders" on _both_ sides of Chicago. (I'm sure anything could have happened if a train were late.) Example 1: The NY-LA via AT&SF car ran in the Broadway east of Chicago, but in the Chief (a very good and fast train, but not the fleet leader) west of Chicago. And I have at least one picture of the Chief with dark PRR and NYC cars in mid-consist. Example 2: The NY-Oakland "California Zephyr Route" car ran in the CZ (and was surely a stainless steel car), but ran in the secondary Pennsylvania Limited and Admiral on "our side". Same situation for the Golden State Route. Example 3: The CN&W/UP/(SP) through cars were not carried in the "Cities" streamliners at this time. In fact, they ran in secondary trains on both sides of Chicago, probably used cars of various color schemes. I found the identical situation in a 4/29/52 NYC public TT. (Yes, I admit to having one in my house!) Conclusion: in the heady days of new, postwar trains, nobody wanted visibly different cars in the fleet leader, but the practice was allowed on the secondary jobs. Yes, I know that stainless steel AT&SF cars eventually appeared in the Broadway, but I'm fairly sure that this didn't happen until later on---maybe from the late 50's until the through cars were discontinued. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:49:43 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Tuscan red origins vs. Warm Brown Hi Richard and list members, Richard wrote: > Leafing thru Burgess & Kennedy's Centennial History produced nothing of > substance, although they quote a Railroad Gazette article of May 6, 1882 > (pp.758-59) describing new dining cars "painted on the outside a rich, > warm brown, bordered with a broad striking pattern in gold, carmine, > black and green..." I doubt anyone mistook warm brown for Tuscan red. The PRR class PH narrow-vestibule coach at Strasburg, which dates back to a build date of 1892, built at Altoona, is currently painted in Tuscan Red w/ buff and black stiping. Presumably this is the same scheme that the PRR painted the car when it was restored for display at the 1939 Worlds Fair. One would guess that, since the purpose of the display was to show what were (in 1939) "old-time" cars, that the restorers would have used the colors in effect when the car was built. Now I realize this is still somewhat of a conjecture on my part, but I would say it is more than quite likely that Tuscan Red was already in use by 1892. As to the "warm brown", well, the PRR did not *always* own nor operate it's own dining car services. During the "early days", in at least some cases, the dining cars were owned and/or operated by Pullman. And the relevant point here is that prior to 1900, Pullman painted it's privately-owned equipment in a chocolate-brown color. Chocolate brown vs warm brown? Could easily be the same thing. So perhaps the dining cars were intended for operation on the PRR but owned by Pullman and painted in Pullman colors. Alternately, perhaps PRR owned the cars and leased them to Pullman for operation, in which case Pullman may have done the painting and maintenance. Who knows! In any case, I think using dining cars as a painting reference during that particular era might be unreliable. So I think the definitive answer still eludes us! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 00:11:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PA color schemes, 1954-58, continued In a message dated 08/13/1999 9:42:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: > In rereading the original post on PA color schemes (I'm fond of emailing > first and thinking later...), as far as which would be the more common > scheme, without statistics to back me up, I recall more photos of the > Tuscan red five stripe engines than the DGLE engines. This is not to > say that there were more engines in Tuscan red, but there were certainly > more photographers trackside on the New York and Long Branch that on the > PRSL during the period in question. > There were only 2 PA-1 were ever painted in the DGLE single stripe scheme 5757 and 5758. All PA-1's were originally delivered in DGLE 5 stripe and beginning in 1954 were painted in Tuscan 5 stripe. All of the PB-1 eventually were painted Tuscan single stripe. I do not know how many if any PA-1 were ever painted in Tuscan Sgl. stripe. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:32:25 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Aloha, I couldn't go to meeting. Is possible for me to get a copy of the handout also. Thanks, Eric At 05:13 PM 8/13/1999 -0400, Chany, Christopher wrote: >Listers, >Does Anyone have the handout from the Phila. Chapter PRRTH&S Modelers >meeting on Catenary From April 24. > >Thanks, >Chris Chany > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 02:37:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] Otto Perry PRR Photo collection! Hey Yuze Guys, I want to share with you all a sight I stumbled onto that turned up 24 pages of GOOD STUFF. It is the Otto Perry Collection of PRR Prints in the keeping of the Denver Public Library. I have never heard of this site being listed on these list before so excuse me if they have. This is a must see list for those interested in the P Co. west of Pittsburgh, PA as most of the shots I viewed/read are around Cincinnati, Ohio and west. It was interesting that there is a photo of the same FS-10 (FM H-10-44) that I modeled in my most recent article in July/August Mainline Modeler. Hey Rick, Tom and Stu check it out it was in Cincinnati in July of 1950. Enjoy the site and I believe that it covers other roads besides the Pennsy (as if there really are any other than the PRR). Andy Miller there are some good passenger cars photo's to. Here's where to go... HTTP://gowest.coalliance.org:8080/ then type in pennsylvania railroad , click and go! Or type in Otto Perry and have fun for a couple evenings. Jerry you may want to add this to a link for Keystone Crossings. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 01:01:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Sleeping cars in thru service In a message dated 8/13/1999 8:57:18 PM Central Daylight Time, PRRMAN@aol.com writes: << Conclusion: in the heady days of new, postwar trains, nobody wanted visibly different cars in the fleet leader, but the practice was allowed on the secondary jobs. Yes, I know that stainless steel AT&SF cars eventually appeared in the Broadway, but I'm fairly sure that this didn't happen until later on---maybe from the late 50's until the through cars were discontinued. >> I would come to a different conclusion: the through cars ran in the best train available in the required class of service (all-Pullman , in the case of the SF-PRR car, changed to the Super Chief in 1954 when the Chief lost its all-Pullman status, for example) which could protect the schedule (i.e., minimum layover in Chicago). Oddly enough, I at least have never seen a video of the two-tone gray cars in the Broadway, but have seen the stainless-steel cars (and even some heavyweight through Pullmans) in what I judge to be the pre-1949 Broadway. I judge it to be the Broadway either by narration, the dorm-baggage car, or Skyline View or Metropolitan View in the consist. I date it pre-1949 by the latter cars in the train, other mostly FOM cars, double-headed K4s on the headend, and, if memory serves me, "Pullman", not "Sante Fe" on the letterboard of the staijnless steel car. Bob (as always, open to corrections) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 05:15:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Coal Mines on the Bald Eagle Branch When I originally said there were 5 mines on this branch I did not indicate which sub-branches they were on: Middle Division Bald Eagle Branch Snow Shoe Branch Knox Run Mine No. 8 Cherry Run Mine No. 4 Sugar Camp Branch Lehigh Valley Mine No. 28 Cherry Run Mine No. 8 Grauer Branch Lehigh Valley Mine No. 22 Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] The Lists Are Back!!! Date: Sun, 15 Aug 99 21:05:36 -0400 From: Jerry SHORT VERSION: The listserv is running again at DSOP.COM. Actually, it was a mail server failure due to severe thunderstorms in central PA. Any mail sent to any individuals at DSOP.COM or to the lists at DSOP.COM over the past 36 hours were probably lost. Please resend if you don't get a response or don't see the post. LONG VERSION: Central Pa. had five very severe lightning storms since 11 p.m. last Friday night. We weathered the first, but the second knocked out our TelCo connection during the night. Early Saturday service was restored, but I took the servers down about 12:30 p.m. Saturday as a third storm approached. I left them down until after the fourth and fifth storms passed, around 8 p.m. Upon restart, the mail server bit the dust. It was running on outdated software. I'd been considering a software change, and decided now was the best time to do this, rather than reinstall and reconfigure the old. However, the FTP site of the publisher of the new software was down until today! Anyway, I got the new software running around 7:30 p.m. this evening and it was receiving SMTP (incoming from the net) mail. It took me another hour or so to get POP (internal) mail working. The listserv uses a POP account to retrieve posts bound for its lists and to send its outbound mail. About 8:45 all was up and it is now running like a -- dare I say it -- "raped ape"! Sorry about the outage. The good news is that it looks like this software will have a much higher throughput than the old software...so posts should get through quicker! (We'll see how quick this post makes it to three lists!) All for now, let's get back to our common addiction! --Jerry, listmeister --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 21:27:59 -0400 From: David ott Subject: [PRR] N5C Cabin Cars What was the design reasoning for using porthole windows? Why did they revert back to the more traditional style on the N8.? Thanks, Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Mag and video and Lewistown question Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:49:50 -0500 Hi, all, Two questions: I noted recently that the LOCOMOTIVE QUARTERLY was featuring photos of the PRR. How are they? Worth the $12 purchase price?? Second, I recently was told that there is a video out on the construction and eventual demise of Penn Station in New York (or something like this). Anyone got the details? A final item: while going over the ICC Valuation map of Lewsitown, I was surprised to see a large ice plant (c.1917) west of the station on the south side of the tracks. Was this for icing reefers? Anyone have more info?? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:01:30 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Greetings, I just noticed this and woulld also like a copy--even a photocopy, if someone would be so kind. I'll willingly pay costs. BTW, I manufacture and sell HO scale PRR suburban catenary poles. Send me an e-mail off list for information. Chuck Friedlein "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Listers, > Does Anyone have the handout from the Phila. Chapter PRRTH&S Modelers > meeting on Catenary From April 24. > > Thanks, > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] ECW B-60 kit From: Fred G Rea Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:36:01 EDT I am building an Eastern Car Works PRR B-60 kit. I was pleased to see the grab iron bending guide when I first got the kit. Now I realize there is no wire, nor any clue about what size wire to use or where they go. I can guess the wire size, but can anyone help on what sizes in the bending guide and where they go? The instructions only mention them with a "...if you want them"! The car is really bare without them. A shame, it is otherwise a great kit (if you ignore their trucks). Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] ECW B-60 kit From: Fred G Rea Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:36:01 EDT I am building an Eastern Car Works PRR B-60 kit. I was pleased to see the grab iron bending guide when I first got the kit. Now I realize there is no wire, nor any clue about what size wire to use or where they go. I can guess the wire size, but can anyone help on what sizes in the bending guide and where they go? The instructions only mention them with a "...if you want them"! The car is really bare without them. A shame, it is otherwise a great kit (if you ignore their trucks). Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:46:00 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] something that came in on the Passenger Car List Thought this would interest you fellows, ===== >Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 04:51:11 -0400 >From: "W. Terry Stuart" >To: >Subject: [pcl] New Website Online > >We invite you to examine our new website at: > > > >You will find the latest RAILFAN NEWS of Conway Yard and the Beaver Valley, >which will be UPDATED at least every few days. > >Your comments and suggestions are most welcome! > ===== Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mag and video and Lewistown question Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 06:49:41 -0400 George Pierson asked: >Second, I recently was told that there is a video out on the construction >and eventual demise of Penn Station in New York (or something like this). >Anyone got the details? Hi George, The only video that I am aware of is the Trains Unlimited program on Penn Station. It is available from The History Channel. Check out: www.historychannel.com Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mag and video and Lewistown question Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 06:49:41 -0400 George Pierson asked: >Second, I recently was told that there is a video out on the construction >and eventual demise of Penn Station in New York (or something like this). >Anyone got the details? Hi George, The only video that I am aware of is the Trains Unlimited program on Penn Station. It is available from The History Channel. Check out: www.historychannel.com Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:51:46 -0400 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Hi, I would also like to request a copy! Will pay costs. Thanks, Keith B Thompson > Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary > From: Chuck Friedlein > Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:01:30 -0700 > > Greetings, > I just noticed this and woulld also like a copy--even a photocopy, if > someone would be so kind. I'll willingly pay costs. > > BTW, I manufacture and sell HO scale PRR suburban catenary poles. Send me > an e-mail off list for information. > > Chuck Friedlein > > "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > > > Listers, > > Does Anyone have the handout from the Phila. Chapter PRRTH&S Modelers > > meeting on Catenary From April 24. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:25:33 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for info: South Fork & Cresson Yard Plans Greetings to Terry and the group, The January 1980 issue of _Rails Northeast_ had an article on the PRR's Cresson Division. The article included a 1927 PRR track, and engine facilities map of Cresson, a 1924 PRR Cresson Division Map and a history of the division. Hope this information was helpful. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:25:33 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for info: South Fork & Cresson Yard Plans Greetings to Terry and the group, The January 1980 issue of _Rails Northeast_ had an article on the PRR's Cresson Division. The article included a 1927 PRR track, and engine facilities map of Cresson, a 1924 PRR Cresson Division Map and a history of the division. Hope this information was helpful. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:38:52 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills/Phillipsburg to Greetings to Mike and the group, Mike, what kind of round trip distance are we talking about here. Would it be a walking sneaker or hiking boot kind of a walk? Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 01:52 PM 8/13/99 -0400, Michael Bezilla wrote: > >Others certainly know more about the line than I do, but I would be glad to >serve as a "guide" of sorts. After Nov. 1 is our best bet. From the summit >around the fill and back is anywhere from 2-4 hours, depending on how much >history (and ecology) one wishes to soak up. -mike > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:53:42 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] H&BT --On Fri, Aug 13, 1999 3:44 PM +0000 David Seidel (DWSNRHS@aol.com) wrote: > As a followup (which may be information you already know), an old back shop > of the H&BTMRR survives at Hopewell, Pa. (Pa route 26 north of Everett, Pa.) > It is currently owned by a local historical society and is usually only open > by appointment or on selected weekends. The Altoona-Blair County Photo > Society visited here previously. Great photo opportunities, especially if > morning sunlight is available. Old tools and equipment in a weathered wood > building along what was once the original right-of-way. > I _believe_ what David refers to here was actually an independently owned and operated foundry and machine shop. It dates to the existence of the nearby Hopewell Furnace, a charcoal-fired iron furnace that operated under various owners into the 1880s. In the very early years of the H&BTM -- which was built as far as Hopewell by 1854 -- this outfit performed locomotive and rolling stock maintenance for the H&BTM, according to Jon Baughman's _Men of Iron_ (already discussed on this thread). When the H&BTM's shops were constructed in Saxton, PA, a year or so later, the foundry and machine shop in Hopewell continued to fill a need for castings and repairs for nearby coal mines. It is quite possible that it also did out-source work for the H&BTM over the course of its existence, given its location next to the mainline and proximity to Saxton, a few miles north. The locomotive and car shop building are still standing in Saxton. A convenience store is housed in part of the complex. Further east of Saxton, in the former coal patch of Dudley, is a display of small H&BTM line-side structures and a small switch engine that, althought it's lettered for the RR, came from some place else. The remains of coke ovens litter the area, as well. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:29:22 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: GG-1s Greetings: I have been reading with interest the speculations about resurrecting a G on the West Chester branch. Fascinating idea. For my contribution let me offer this quote from the Weight Restrictions table on p.312 of Eastern Region TT-21 effective 4-24-66 (I'm sorry, it's the newest one I have): Under West Chester branch it says " GG1 engine single unit only may be operated between Arsenal and West Chester." How's that? Of course, by this date the PRR was not good about maintaining bridges on branch lines, so neglect may have taken its toll. Bridge conditions would be the deciding factor, so this citation may now mean nothing. As for the PCBs in the transformers... is there not the possibility of some kind of waiver given the historic nature of the G? Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:28:43 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal hauling out of Osceola Mills/Phillipsburg to Hiking boots. There is swampiness but the old roadbed is fairly rugged these day, and is getting overgrown with small trees & bushes etc. It would be more challenging than a rails to trails type of hike.The distance would depend on if we wanted to walk to the Big Fill or all the way around it and along the mountainside about Rt 350 -- sort of like walking around the Horseshoe Curve and on to MG. Or if we wanted to descend the fill down to Emigh's Run to see what the view looking up is like. -mike >Mike, what kind of round trip distance are we talking about here. Would it >be a walking sneaker or hiking boot kind of a walk? > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA >drm6@psu.edu >http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > >At 01:52 PM 8/13/99 -0400, Michael Bezilla wrote: >> >>Others certainly know more about the line than I do, but I would be glad to >>serve as a "guide" of sorts. After Nov. 1 is our best bet. From the summit >>around the fill and back is anywhere from 2-4 hours, depending on how much >>history (and ecology) one wishes to soak up. -mike >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:30:08 -0400 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Tuscan red origins > > While doing research at the Pennsylvania State Archives, I chanced on some > information on this subject. Apparently, the PRR itself once tried to > determine the date Tuscan Red was made standard for passenger cars. The > oldest drawing their researcher could find was Tracing No. 3180B, "Lettering > and Striping on Standard Passenger Cars, PRR Classes PD, PE and PF," > Altoona, January 1882. The drawing showed the body and wheels (!) painted > Tuscan Red. Other information turned up by the PRR's researcher showed that > Tuscan Red was standard at least prior to April 11, 1878. Prior to using > Tuscan Red, the exterior was painted a Chrome Green, commonly called > "Carriage Green". > > Bob Johnson Chrome Green - wasn't that the arsenic-laced paint that poisoned so many kids back then in a precursor hazard to the later lead paint and PCB scares? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:39:27 -0500 I am in the process of designing a suburban Philla area layout and would dearly LOVE a copy. Will be happy to pay any costs involved. Bill Laird -----Original Message----- From: Keith B. Thompson - Sun To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary > > >Hi, > >I would also like to request a copy! Will pay costs. > >Thanks, >Keith B Thompson > >> Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary >> From: Chuck Friedlein >> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:01:30 -0700 >> >> Greetings, >> I just noticed this and woulld also like a copy--even a photocopy, if >> someone would be so kind. I'll willingly pay costs. >> >> BTW, I manufacture and sell HO scale PRR suburban catenary poles. Send me >> an e-mail off list for information. >> >> Chuck Friedlein >> >> "Chany, Christopher" wrote: >> >> > Listers, >> > Does Anyone have the handout from the Phila. Chapter PRRTH&S Modelers >> > meeting on Catenary From April 24. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Chris Chany >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:42:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary From: "Jerry Britton" I have a request in to the Philly Chapter concerning session notes...for a fee or for free. Stay tuned. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------- >From: "Bill Laird" >To: >Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary >Date: Mon, Aug 16, 1999, 1:39 PM > > I am in the process of designing a suburban Philla area layout and would > dearly LOVE a copy. Will be happy to pay any costs involved. > > Bill Laird > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith B. Thompson - Sun > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:33 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary > > >> >> >>Hi, >> >>I would also like to request a copy! Will pay costs. >> >>Thanks, >>Keith B Thompson >> >>> Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary >>> From: Chuck Friedlein >>> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:01:30 -0700 >>> >>> Greetings, >>> I just noticed this and woulld also like a copy--even a photocopy, if >>> someone would be so kind. I'll willingly pay costs. >>> >>> BTW, I manufacture and sell HO scale PRR suburban catenary poles. Send > me >>> an e-mail off list for information. >>> >>> Chuck Friedlein >>> >>> "Chany, Christopher" wrote: >>> >>> > Listers, >>> > Does Anyone have the handout from the Phila. Chapter PRRTH&S Modelers >>> > meeting on Catenary From April 24. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Chris Chany >>> > >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:00:09 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW B-60 kit Hello Fred and the list, I've added grab irons to my B-60 and most of my other recent ECW coaches. I haven't had any luck using the bending guide, but .015 wire fits nicely through the holes. I bend my grabs mostly by eye, though what I usually do is find a belt rail or rivet line and key off that. I make the first bend, then I measure, make a mark on the wire with a magic marker, and then make the next bend. Before I started adding grab irons to my ECW kits (actually, some are old enough to have come from Alco Models that I acquired at the Timonium show when I was living in Maryland), I could build the kit in a day or two. Adding the grabs can be tedious; I listen to music to avoid going crazy. I drill my holes first, because I find that even more tedious. The upside to the ECW kits is that they are a good value again; the latest Bachmann P70s list for $34.95; for a long time, the Bachmann cars could be purchased for less than an ECW kit. Since I like to build things, I feel a bit better. Hope this helps, Doug Fred G Rea wrote: > I am building an Eastern Car Works PRR B-60 kit. I was pleased to see > the grab iron bending guide when I first got the kit. Now I realize > there is no wire, nor any clue about what size wire to use or where they > go. I can guess the wire size, but can anyone help on what sizes in the > bending guide and where they go? > > The instructions only mention them with a "...if you want them"! The car > is really bare without them. A shame, it is otherwise a great kit (if > you ignore their trucks). > > Fred Rea > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:05:26 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mag and video and Lewistown question Hello George and the list, I've subscribed to Locomotive Quarterly for two years now. It's greatest strength is that the photographs in it usually haven't been seen elsewhere; all of the PRR shots were new to me, which was nice. The magazine is worth it for the pictures alone. Where this very well intentioned publication falls down are the statistics and captions; some of the captions contain engine numbers that are wrong, and often times, statistics for the wrong class of engine are listed below the picture. This will not stop the dedicated enthusiast, but it will confuse the neophyte. If I had a choice, I'd take publication that got it all right. On the bright side, the photos are very well done. Doug George N Pierson wrote: > Hi, all, > > Two questions: I noted recently that the LOCOMOTIVE QUARTERLY was featuring > photos of the PRR. How are they? Worth the $12 purchase price?? > > Second, I recently was told that there is a video out on the construction > and eventual demise of Penn Station in New York (or something like this). > Anyone got the details? > > A final item: while going over the ICC Valuation map of Lewsitown, I was > surprised to see a large ice plant (c.1917) west of the station on the south > side of the tracks. Was this for icing reefers? Anyone have more info?? > George N. Pierson > e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] test Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:33:03 -0400 Several duplicates of one post received yesterday and then no posts overnight. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:50:20 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines on the Bald Eagle Branch Harold wrote: >When I originally said there were 5 mines on this branch I did not indicate >which sub-branches they were on: > >Middle Division > Bald Eagle Branch > Snow Shoe Branch > Knox Run Mine No. 8 > Cherry Run Mine No. 4 > Sugar Camp Branch > Lehigh Valley Mine No. 28 > Cherry Run Mine No. 8 > Grauer Branch > Lehigh Valley Mine No. 22 I believe Cherry Run No. 4 was active in 1949,don't know about the others. No. 4 was at Gillintown, almost right at the NYC (i.e. Beech Creek RR) crossing, so it was indeed served directly by the Snow Shoe Br. The Sugar Camp Br. passed under the NYC just west of Clarence and then curved eastward to serve the J. H. France brickyard, which NYC also served. The Grauer Br. went westward after the PRR crossed under the NYC west of Clarence. All very confusing, I know, but just in case anybody out there is interested. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:07:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Address Change / @pennsyrr.com Mail Service From: "Jerry Britton" Normally I don't like to see address changes posted to lists, but since many of you contact me through "jerry@dsop.com" instead of "listmaster@dsop.com" regarding list issues, I thought a post was in order. An added bonus of my new e-mail server is that it can serve mail for multiple domains. My old server could not. I am moving my "railroad-related" address to the domain PENNSYRR.COM. Therefore, you can now reach me at jerry@pennsyrr.com Please update your address books appropriately! (My old address will continue to work, for now.) Once I am sure all is working 100% with the new server, I will likely move the "PRR-Talk" list to PENNSYRR.COM -- it would only be logical! (I'm not sure about the other railroad lists; they will likely stay at DSOP.COM.) I am also pondering offering PENNSYRR.COM mail accounts to the general public for a very low annual fee (like $25). You would still need to have an ISP account, but you could send/receive all of your railroad-related mail via a "@pennsyrr.com" address. Kind of like a PRR license plate -- you don't need it but it's kind of nice! Any interest? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:43:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Updates: Altoona Convention & Cyber Chapter From: "Jerry Britton" An update on the Altoona Convention of the PRRT&HS: There are 32 PRR-Talk listers planning to attend. The list is online. Please let me know if you are going but are not yet on the list. Thanks. The schedule is all in stone, flyers have been printed, and the PRRT&HS is including the flyer in the registration packet (thanks to Walt Keely). An update on the Cyber Chapter of the PRRT&HS: We have 47 members of the national PRRT&HS listed as charter members. This is outstanding! Still waiting on the by-laws which are coming from the society's secretary, Fred Schaeffer (sp.). This list of members is online. Contact me to add your name, but you MUST be a national member to do so...at this point. All of the above information can be viewed at: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:44:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines on the Bald Eagle Branch In a message dated 8/17/99 1:16:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mxb13@psu.edu writes: << I believe Cherry Run No. 4 was active in 1949,don't know about the others. No. 4 was at Gillintown, almost right at the NYC (i.e. Beech Creek RR) crossing, so it was indeed served directly by the Snow Shoe Br. The Sugar Camp Br. passed under the NYC just west of Clarence and then curved eastward to serve the J. H. France brickyard, which NYC also served. The Grauer Br. went westward after the PRR crossed under the NYC west of Clarence. All very confusing, I know, but just in case anybody out there is interested. -mike >> The information I have is that all 5 were active in 1947. I have the 1951 supplement to CD No. 5 and it shows that only Cherry Run Mine No. 4 and Cherry Run Mine No. 8 were still active. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Tuscan red origins From: "Michael E. Allen" Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:46:33 EDT The poison paint was "Paris Green" MEA On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:25:54 -0400 Charles Ring writes: >> >> While doing research at the Pennsylvania State Archives, <<< snipped >>> Other information turned up by the PRR's researcher showed that Tuscan Red was standard at least prior to April 11, 1878. Prior to using Tuscan Red, the exterior was painted a Chrome Green, commonly called "Carriage Green". >> >> Bob Johnson > >Chrome Green - wasn't that the arsenic-laced paint that poisoned so >many kids >back then in a precursor hazard to the later lead paint and PCB >scares? > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:00:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Fuel Oil Storage Tanks I have a hand written chart of all fuel tanks for the entire PRR system for the year 1956. Total capacity was 28,384,003 gallona in 341 tanks at140 locations. If you are modeling a particular location in that time frame and need the number and size of tanks I have the info. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 05:48:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Fuel Oil Storage Tanks at Engine Terminals 1957 This illustrates the completness of the list: The largest tanks were at the 16th Street Engine Terminal in Chicago: 2 above ground tanks at 2,250,000 gal each. The smallest were at Dover, Ohio: 2 -55 gal drums owned by Standard Oil of Ohio. Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:59:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Prototyping Life Like P2K PA's for PRR use From: "Jerry Britton" A while back Steve Hoxie provided information on how to "prototype" Life Like P2K GP7's for accurate PRR presentation. See: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/p2k_gp7.html Would anyone care to do a similar writeup at this time for the Life Like P2K PA's? Also needed are LL P2K FA's, SW900/1200, GP9, SD7, SD9, E&'s, E8's. (Did I miss any?) Other brands will be done later. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:18:10 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines on the Bald Eagle Branch Continuing on about the snow shoe branch >The information I have is that all 5 were active in 1947. I have the 1951 >supplement to CD No. 5 and it shows that only Cherry Run Mine No. 4 and >Cherry Run Mine No. 8 were still active. One or both of these mines must have been still active in 1959, since the last train up the Snow Shoe Branch ran in 1959 or 1960. The Snow Shoe branch was abandoned not because the mines played out, but rather because of the high cost of maintaining the line -- it had a series of switchbacks enabling it to climb the face of the Allegheny front -- and operating costs were high. It was at least a 12 hr day for the crew from Bellefonte to go out & back for maybe 8-10 hoppers of coal. The coal continued to be mined but was trucked. If I understand correctly, most of the coal was sent to the West Penn power plant at Milesburg and to the power plant at Penn State's U Park campus. The PRR was hard pressed to compete with trucks on these short hauls. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Ticket dater Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:41:59 -0500 Hi, all, A question - I have the opportunity to obtain a Hills Ticket Dater, Model A. As a novice in this area of railroadiana, can the Model A use the same dies as the model #7, which appears to have been used on the PRR? Thanks! George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Life Like P2k's Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:22:46 -0400 Listers, I have handouts from old PRRT&HS meetings done by Paul Bakenstose that explain updating P2k FA's and a host of other engines. RS2's, Geeps, Stewart Baldwins (I think). If I can find them tonight I'll post the list tomorrow. If their is an interest maybe I can give a copy to Jerry at the meeting next week and he can put it online. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Life Like P2k's Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:22:46 -0400 Listers, I have handouts from old PRRT&HS meetings done by Paul Bakenstose that explain updating P2k FA's and a host of other engines. RS2's, Geeps, Stewart Baldwins (I think). If I can find them tonight I'll post the list tomorrow. If their is an interest maybe I can give a copy to Jerry at the meeting next week and he can put it online. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:22:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like P2k's On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Chany, Christopher wrote: > > Listers, > I have handouts from old PRRT&HS meetings done by Paul Bakenstose > that explain updating P2k FA's and a host of other engines. RS2's, Geeps, > Stewart Baldwins (I think). If I can find them tonight I'll post the list > tomorrow. If their is an interest maybe I can give a copy to Jerry at the > meeting next week and he can put it online. That would be great! I had intended to go through and create a guide for things as I actually got time to rework them, but I'm so far behind it's not even funny. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:14:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR steam archive site A friend knowning what an SPF I am sent this link to me. I think you all might enjoy giving this site a visit. << Here is a great PRR steam archive site! http://www.webpraxis.ab.ca/vrr/steam/us/prr/sheets/prr.htm >> Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:35:25 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Exhaust Steam Injectors on M1 locomotives Hello list, In Classic Power 8, Pennsylvania M1 Dual Service Mountains, Pennypacker wrote on page 41, "....engine 6941 M1 with small tender. Engine was equipped with exhaust steam injector, rare on the 6800-6900 series M1 at that time." I have lots of PRR reference books, as well as MR's Cyclopedia Volume I: Steam Locomotives, so I think I should be able to recognize an exhaust steam injector when I see one. The problem is, I haven't; none of the M1 pictures I've seen have anything remotely resembling an Elesco exhaust steam injector. Can anyone on the list set the story straight? I'm planning on modelling M1 6810 next year, starting with a Bowser kit as she appeared from 1948-57 with the full postwar front end. This engine was the last M1 with a Kiesel tender (she was retired with a 130P75 or 130F75) and wasn't sold for scrap until February 1958. I have most of the other details down pat, but I want to be clear about the exhaust steam injector issue before I start modifying a Bowser kit. Just to be sure, I went through the PRR Talk archives and didn't find anything on the subject. Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] K4s Smokebox color! List, Several weeks ago here on PRR-TALK there was a thread going around about the color of PRR Smokeboxes. Several commented that the color was a dark graphite paint. I will agree to that but when you are talking Pennsy, nothing seems to be standard. I stated I have a photo of a K4s that goes to one extreme in this color. Pictured in the url listed below is K4s #5409, dated for 10-30-37 and the location was The Meadows, New Jersey. As you will see in the picture this particular K4s has the most silver smokebox I have ever come across. I think many here will agree as well. Almost resembles the way the Long Island painted their G-5s smokeboxes and cylinder heads. That brings me to a why this K4s is painted this way. What years did the Long Island RailRoad lease or borrow a handful of K4s's? Was it this 1937 time period? Maybe the LI RR repainted this and other K4's this way. Just a thought! Anyway, when you model a Pennsy K4, any shade of graphite is suitable. From the silver color pictured below to the more common Dark Graphite we are used to seeing. Also a footnote on the photo. K4s #5409 was also one of the K4's that was painted Tuscan Red in the early 1930's. Thats my 2 cents again. Gary http://www,geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/k45409.JPG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] K4s Smokebox- Correct url List, I made a typo in the previous address for the K4 Photograph. Here is the new one. Gary http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/k45409.JPG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s Smokebox- Correct url Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:33:33 -0700 Gary and all... Here I go again...I think that these locomotives were on the Long Island when the photo was taken. The bright silver (or white) was charachteristic of locomotives assigned to the L.I. R.R. Most other shots from this era showed a much darker treatment of the smokebox. Maybe this is the shot that Bachmann used for their K4s's??? Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:31 PM Subject: [PRR] K4s Smokebox- Correct url List, I made a typo in the previous address for the K4 Photograph. Here is the new one. Gary http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/k45409.JPG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:53:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 >From the 1923 CT1000: Bald Eagle Branch no mines listed Snow Shoe Branch (off BE Br) 18.7 Valentine Coll. #1 (Canton Steam Coal Co.) 20.0 Valentine Coll. (Kelley & Watson) 20.9 Birch Run Coll. #1 (Birch Run Coal Co.) 22.2 Cherry Run Coll. #5 (Kelley Bros. Coal Co.) 22.4 Nineteen Coll. (O. G. Morgan Coal Co.) 22.7 Moravian Coll. #8 (Moravian Coal Co.) Sugar Camp Branch (off SS Br) 19.4 Clarence Coll. #10 (Clarence Coal Co.) 22.7 Lehigh Valley Coal Co. #9 26.7 Cherry Run #4 (Big Sandy Coal Co.) Grauer Branch (off SC Br) 20.2 Lehigh Valley Coal Co. #22 21.4 Lehigh Valley Coal Co. #18 21.6 Cherry Run Coll. #3 (Kelley Bros.) 21.7 Cherry Run Coll. #6 (Kelley Bros.) 21.8 Lehigh Valley Coal Co. #13 22.4 Clarence Coll. #1 (Clarence Coal Co.) Big Sandy Branch (off SC Br) 25.8 Lehigh Valley Coal Co. #26 26.0 Lucas Coll. #7 (Lucas Coal Co.) 27.9 Lehigh Valley Coal Co. #25 The numbers are miles from Snow Shoe Intersection Now I see why the PRR went to the trouble to get into the Snow Shoe district. After compiling this list, I noticed an entry somewhere in the Chicago area for "Lehigh Valley Coal Co." I wonder, was that the same LV Coal Co? Did coal from Snow Shoe get shipped to Chicago? === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Book Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:02:05 -0700 Can anyone comment on the new Kalmbach book on "Pennsy Streamliners"? I saw mention of the book on their website. I have not seen it in a local store yet. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] New Brass Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:05:21 -0700 For those you who model the Pennsy in O scale, there are pictures of the Sunset/3rRail E-6 pilot model on their website. The model is 3 rail but it will be available in 2 rail. Looks good except for the Keystone. The model is projected to cost $799 or less than an HO model these days. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:21:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Book From: "Jerry Britton" >From: endeimling@mindspring.com > > Can anyone comment on the new Kalmbach book on "Pennsy Streamliners"? I > saw mention of the book on their website. > I have not seen it in a local store yet. I'll make a few comments...but I'll first disclose that I sell this book through "Merchandise Service" so as to not draw ire as a biased reviewer! Production: Superb. Kalmbach used good quality stock and the material printed very well. Photos: Average. As with all Kalmbach publications, many of the photos have been previously published. There are some new ones, and perhaps some unique ones. However, this book is not one to buy just for the photos. Text: I've only begun reading it. I did read the excerpts that appeared in MR some three months ago. The author provides numerous references, and tells the story not only of the PRR's passenger fleet, but also of specific trains. He provides many comparisons between named PRR trains and those of competitors, like the NYC and the B&O. Profitability information, as well as ridership, is often included. There are also many tables listing the consists of many trains over the years. Some include only class references, while others name actual cars. For instance, there is one consist report listing the Catulpa Falls on the Broadway Limited as a temporary substitute for one of the Harbor series cars. Being a fan of the "varnish", I just had to add this book to my own library. Every passenger fan should get it. For collectors of other interests or general interest, you'll probably need to see it to decide. I will have my own copy on hand at the PENNSYRR.COM booth at the PRRT&HS convention next week if you wish to take a look. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:14:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Any dupes? From: "Jerry Britton" Jerry Breon is still reporting duplicates of numerous messages. Is anyone else getting duplicates? For testing purposes, I've subscribed from an address outside of my own domains. For six hours now, I have not received any dupes. There has been traffic. Any dupes, anyone? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Dupes Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:07:33 -0400 Jerry, Received at 5 dupes on the ticket dater. (Original and 4 copies yesterday) This morning an original and 1 copy on the Sunset Brass O loco. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:19:21 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Dupes From: "Eugene Nowlan" From: "Gene Nowlan" Jerry, The duplicate messages started with your request for list members to write up their decoder installations in LL PK2 ... 3 to 5 copies of that message. I thought you were trying to tell the list something. Brass topic double message and another topic also. Gene Nowlan Corning, NY USA ---------- >From: "Chany, Christopher" >To: "'prr-talk@dsop.com'" >Subject: [PRR] Dupes >Date: Thu, Aug 19, 1999, 4:07 PM > >Jerry, > Received at 5 dupes on the ticket dater. (Original and 4 copies yesterday) >This morning an original and 1 copy on the Sunset Brass O loco. > >Chris > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: [PRR] Dupes Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:57:41 -0400 I received about 5 dupes of Jerry's request for P2K write-ups, and about 12 of Stephen Hoxie's reply. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:04:20 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Book Jerry and the List, I have to agree with you on the quality of this book. If you're a varnish fan, yes, you've gotta have it. Anything that has some previously unpublished photos in it is typically worth having. Speaking of (probably) previously unpublished photos, take a good look at the photo on page 24 of the Braodway in July 1940. Please pardon the shouting, but CAN ANYBODY I.D. THE BAGGAGE CAR IN FoM COLORS??????? I've not seen one before. I'm told also by someone a few years ago there was possibly one RPO painted in FoM, but no one can verify it with a photo. Does anyone on the list have any solid information on either? Would appreciate it. TIA, Chuck Friedlein Jerry Britton wrote: > >From: endeimling@mindspring.com > > > > Can anyone comment on the new Kalmbach book on "Pennsy Streamliners"? I > > saw mention of the book on their website. > > I have not seen it in a local store yet. > > I'll make a few comments...but I'll first disclose that I sell this book > through "Merchandise Service" so as to not draw ire as a biased reviewer! > > Production: Superb. Kalmbach used good quality stock and the material > printed very well. > > Photos: Average. As with all Kalmbach publications, many of the photos have > been previously published. There are some new ones, and perhaps some unique > ones. However, this book is not one to buy just for the photos. > > Text: I've only begun reading it. I did read the excerpts that appeared in > MR some three months ago. The author provides numerous references, and tells > the story not only of the PRR's passenger fleet, but also of specific > trains. He provides many comparisons between named PRR trains and those of > competitors, like the NYC and the B&O. Profitability information, as well as > ridership, is often included. There are also many tables listing the > consists of many trains over the years. Some include only class references, > while others name actual cars. For instance, there is one consist report > listing the Catulpa Falls on the Broadway Limited as a temporary substitute > for one of the Harbor series cars. > > Being a fan of the "varnish", I just had to add this book to my own library. > Every passenger fan should get it. For collectors of other interests or > general interest, you'll probably need to see it to decide. I will have my > own copy on hand at the PENNSYRR.COM booth at the PRRT&HS convention next > week if you wish to take a look. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:09:11 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: [PRR] NO Dupes here I havent gotten ANY dupes from this list....except for 23 copies of some mail last week. But since then all has been fine. Here is a question for the PRR lovers. Here in Buffalo the PRR used the NYC's Buffalo Central Terminal which opened in 1929 as their main station. Question is BEFORE 1929, what station did the PRR use for passenger trains. NO this is not a trivia question but am seriously looking for an answer to this question. Thanks in Advance! W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:47:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Improvements to PRR-Talk Archive From: "Jerry Britton" I made some significant improvements to the archive of the mailing lists (PRR-Talk, Reding-Talk, PRRMO, PRR2000, and Conrail-Talk). Previously you could only enter search text into a "keyword" field. That searched the union of message bodies, subjects, etc. You can still do that, but now you can restrict the search to the Subject, Author's Name, Author's E-Mail Address, and Date Posted. Also, for each of the above, you can apply Starts With, Doesn't Start With, Equals, Contains, Is Greater Than, Is Less Than, and other operands. This dramatically increases the functionality of the search engine. Now why didn't I do this sooner? ;-) P.S. Besides showing the total number of records in the archive, it now breaks down how many posts are archived for each list. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:40:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Book and another question In a message dated 8/19/1999 1:11:26 PM Central Daylight Time, diehexe@uswest.net writes: << Please pardon the shouting, but CAN ANYBODY I.D. THE BAGGAGE CAR IN FoM COLORS??????? I've not seen one before. I'm told also by someone a few years ago there was possibly one RPO painted in FoM, but no one can verify it with a photo. Does anyone on the list have any solid information on either? Would appreciate it. >> The consist of the 1938 Broadway lists a B70 Baggage-Express and an M70. However the Painting and Lettering guide only lists the following in FOM: B60bs 7458, 7461, 7871 and two BM70n, no numbers available. Once again, it seems from my memory that my photo documentation is probably in a video so will have to look it up. Not that a brass supplier is a reference source (particularly for paint schemes) , but FWIW the Challenger Broadway model of a few years ago included both headend cars in FOM. Now I have another question: what was the Baggage-express car doing in the Broadway consist. To my knowledge, there was no checked baggage on the Broadway. Didn't think it carried Railway Express. Was it strictly for overflow from the RPO? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Brandon" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4s Smokebox color! Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:39:32 -0400 This is a situation where the obvious may not be so obvious. When the Pennsy ordered Tuscan Red paint, the manufacturer was given latitude to pick the pigments that would provide that color. They had to provide a long-lasting pigment combination that very closely matched the standard color. When they ordered graphite paint, however, they specified the primary pigment (graphite) and were obliged to accept the color of the graphite that the paint manufacturer was using at that time. As with all natural pigments, the color will vary, along with other characteristics. The Pennsy didn't choose graphite paint for its color; rather for its corrosion protection and thermal trasfer characteristics. This helps explain why the smokebox was a different color from the adjacent insulation covering. The smokebox was the only exposed area on the boiler, and the reason that it was exposed is that they wanted heat to be dissipated in this area. The graphite paint performed both functions as no other coating could. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gary Mittner Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 8:11 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] K4s Smokebox color! List, Several weeks ago here on PRR-TALK there was a thread going around about the color of PRR Smokeboxes. Several commented that the color was a dark graphite paint. I will agree to that but when you are talking Pennsy, nothing seems to be standard. I stated I have a photo of a K4s that goes to one extreme in this color. Pictured in the url listed below is K4s #5409, dated for 10-30-37 and the location was The Meadows, New Jersey. As you will see in the picture this particular K4s has the most silver smokebox I have ever come across. I think many here will agree as well. Almost resembles the way the Long Island painted their G-5s smokeboxes and cylinder heads. That brings me to a why this K4s is painted this way. What years did the Long Island RailRoad lease or borrow a handful of K4s's? Was it this 1937 time period? Maybe the LI RR repainted this and other K4's this way. Just a thought! Anyway, when you model a Pennsy K4, any shade of graphite is suitable. From the silver color pictured below to the more common Dark Graphite we are used to seeing. Also a footnote on the photo. K4s #5409 was also one of the K4's that was painted Tuscan Red in the early 1930's. Thats my 2 cents again. Gary http://www,geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/k45409.JPG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Any dupes? Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:48:03 -0700 Yeah...I've been getting a gazillion messages from Stephen Hoxie on the P2k PA. Geeze! -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 9:04 AM Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Any dupes? >Jerry Breon is still reporting duplicates of numerous messages. Is anyone >else getting duplicates? > >For testing purposes, I've subscribed from an address outside of my own >domains. For six hours now, I have not received any dupes. There has been >traffic. > >Any dupes, anyone? >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:24:54 EDT Subject: Re: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 In a message dated 99-08-19 07:21:22 EDT, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << After compiling this list, I noticed an entry somewhere in the Chicago area for "Lehigh Valley Coal Co." I wonder, was that the same LV Coal Co? Did coal from Snow Shoe get shipped to Chicago? >> Probably, anthracite was used a lot for home heating prior to world war 2. Up in Maine I found an old building with a painted on sign boasting of the wonders of "Old Company Lehigh's" anthracite. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:35:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s Smokebox color! Hey Yuze Gize, Again I think we put way to much thought and conjecture into this Smoke box color. As Rich Orr has written before as has others, there was a spec for smoke box color. It was (without looking it up at the moment) x amount of pounds of Aluminum flake into a 5 gallon barrel. Have you ever tried to stir anything even water in a 55 gallon barrel. Pretty hard thing to do! And that Aluminum powered well it sinks tot eh bottom pretty darn quick just watch it in a ¼ oz. bottle of Testors paint. once it is settled it seems twice as hard to mix up again. Let's use some common sense here, the closer to the bottom of the barrel the more like to have more pigment, especially metallic paints. Greg Martin Gary writes: << Several weeks ago here on PRR-TALK there was a thread going around about the color of PRR Smokeboxes. Several commented that the color was a dark graphite paint. I will agree to that but when you are talking Pennsy, nothing seems to be standard. I stated I have a photo of a K4s that goes to one extreme in this color. Pictured in the url listed below is K4s #5409, dated for 10-30-37 and the location was The Meadows, New Jersey. As you will see in the picture this particular K4s has the most silver smokebox I have ever come across. >> and J. Brandon writes: << When they ordered graphite paint, however, they specified the primary pigment (graphite) and were obliged to accept the color of the graphite that the paint manufacturer was using at that time. As with all natural pigments, the color will vary, along with other characteristics.>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 07:51:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Dupes From: "Jerry Britton" Though it applies to all my lists, I am only posting this to PRR-Talk, which has the most subscribers and the greater volume and is thus likely to produce results quicker... I think we've narrowed down the duping problem, though only a dozen or so subscribers have reported the problem. A change was made last night. The following is very subjective, so consider it carefully over the next few hours and then e-mail me: If you are still receiving dupes, has the frequency/volume of dupes been reduced since, say, midnight last night? Please monitor this until noon today, or so, then report. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:03:05 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Final 8/20/99 Hoss's Dinner Reservations Update Greetings to the group, As of Friday, August 20, 1999, I have received a reservation request from the following folks for the 5 PM PRR-Talk Dinner get together at Hoss's on Friday, August 27th. This will be the last update posted to the PRR-Talk list. If you decide to come to dinner and haven't sent an E-mail reservation yet, get it to me before Friday, August 27. If we give Hoss's an accurate number they can accomodate us more easily. Looking forward to seeing all of you next week. Drew McGhee Jerry Britton Dorman Wilson Susan Wilson Jerry Breon Roy Breon Brad Bower Rick Tipton Ken McCorry Derrick Brashear + 2 Todd Horton Lisa Horton Joe Gotaski Dave Wartel Vagel Keller David Seidel Peter Barton Bill Bigler Al Werner Dick Perry Chris Chany + 4 Carl Haslett + 6 Kitty Izzo Carl Izzo Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:20:31 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] FOM headend cas was Pennsy Book and another question Chuck Friedlein wrote: ><< Please pardon the shouting, but > CAN ANYBODY I.D. THE BAGGAGE CAR IN FoM COLORS??????? I've not seen one >before. Bob Zoeller replied: > I'm told also by someone a few years ago there was possibly one RPO >painted in > FoM, The consist of the 1938 Broadway lists a B70 Baggage-Express >and an M70. >However the Painting and Lettering guide only lists the following in FOM: >B60bs 7458, 7461, 7871 and two BM70n, no numbers available. I am looking at a photo of a PB-70? (smooth side combine) in FOM, #5161? (the first and third #s are tough!!!). The car appears to be a rebuilt PB-70 as it has 3 axle trucks and what appears to be the original roof/diaphragm on the baggage end with a full width diaphragm on the coach end....The caption gives the data as Sept 3, 1944, the train is #MD-58/59, the "Mushroom Train" on the Octoraro Branch (Chadds Ford Junction), and consists of a G-5s #1592, said FOM combine and an heavyweight combine. It must be a warm day as both baggage doors are open (and the creww is standing in one door) and the windows in the heavyweight PB-70 are open. Looks like some of the FOM cars fell a long, long way from the Broadway! (The photo is in the High Line reprinting of The Octoraro Branch, Vol 6, Nos 3&4, Vol 7, No 1, original 1986, third printing 1998) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:47:28 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 >In a message dated 99-08-19 07:21:22 EDT, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > ><< After compiling this list, I noticed an entry > somewhere in the Chicago area for "Lehigh Valley Coal > Co." I wonder, was that the same LV Coal Co? Did coal > from Snow Shoe get shipped to Chicago? >> > >Probably, anthracite was used a lot for home heating prior to world war 2. Up >in Maine I found an old building with a painted on sign boasting of the >wonders of "Old Company Lehigh's" anthracite. Just a reminder that Snow Shoe coal was/is bituminous. The Clearfield and Centre county deposits contain some of the highest BTU (but highest sulfur) coal to be found anywhere in the U.S. Both PRR and NYC prized it for use as for steam coal, and in the era of coal-burning steam navigation, it was highly sought after by steamship companies, e.g. Cunard Lines, which owned many mines in the area. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:06:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: WHAT IS "FOM" A NEW TYPE SPF FOAMER OR WHAT? UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE NOT ALL ON THE SAME LEVEL RAY BURGHART EMP #948973 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:32:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: WHAT IS "FOM" A NEW TYPE SPF FOAMER OR WHAT? From: "Jerry Britton" >From: RBurg74133@aol.com >To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Re: WHAT IS "FOM" A NEW TYPE SPF FOAMER OR WHAT? >Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999, 10:06 AM > > UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE NOT ALL ON THE SAME LEVEL > RAY BURGHART EMP #948973 Ray: We've got a double answer for you today... First, if you see a term or acronym you are not familiar with, there is a glossary of terms on the "Keystone Crossings" web site (which hosts this list). I checked, and "FoM" is in the glossary. Second, there is also a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) about "FoM". "FoM" was the "Fleet of Modernism", a paint scheme used on the PRR's Blue Ribbon trains in the late 1930's. Both are located at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/faqs/ Hope that helps! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:13:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] FOM headend cas was Pennsy Book and another question In a message dated 8/20/1999 8:41:29 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburnedu writes: << Looks like some of the FOM cars fell a long, long way from the Broadway! >> I was referring only to RPO and full baggage cars. In answer to the other question on the list (since no one else has stepped forward) , FOM stands for Fleet of Modernism. Beginning with the 1938 Broadway Limited, Raymond Loewy designed a new paint scheme which, with the tuscan sides, included a dark maroon window band, Gold leaf Futura (a sans serif style--Pullman called it Kabel) lettering, and pinstripes. Beginning in 1941, the lettering was changed to the more usual PRR or Pullman railroad style with serifs. The Painting and Lettering guide and other sources have the diagram and pictures including the cover shot of the Trailblazer observation. New streamlined Pullmans for the General and Spirit of St. Louis, plus some for the general pool service (including new 10-5s and observations for the Liberty Limited) , about 250-300 Pennsy cars (including the coaches et al for the Trailblazer, etc) , and (I count) about 72 heavyweight Pullmans were painted in this art deco scheme. Beginning mid-1946, repaints and new cars were in the postwar style all-tuscan sides with one stripe above and two stripes below the window sash, but the FOM lasted until late 40's. I would be interested in the latest date photo anyone has of a car still with the scheme. And yes, as Bruce says, the cars eventually wound up a long ways from the Blue Ribbon fleet, spreading throughout the system, even branches. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re-PRR Smokebox color!    Greg, List           Thanks, you have proven my point in a way I didn't. That any color smokebox paint on a loco, being prototype or model is correct. Its another story if it is too light or dark for ones particular taste. If you don't like the way the model looks, repaint it til you come up with a color that is satisfying. Nuf said.           Another modeling point. Who here has built the Miracle Casting BP20 Sharks? Email me off list on their experience they had with these kits....... Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:21:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: WHAT IS "FOM" A NEW TYPE SPF FOAMER OR WHAT? In a message dated 8/20/1999 10:00:34 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << First, if you see a term or acronym you are not familiar with, there is a glossary of terms on the "Keystone Crossings" web site (which hosts this list). I checked, and "FoM" is in the glossary. Second, there is also a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) about "FoM". "FoM" was the "Fleet of Modernism", a paint scheme used on the PRR's Blue Ribbon trains in the late 1930's. >> Yup. After I posted my response on the subject, I realized I should have referred the questioner to Keytone Crossings for the answer to this understandably periodically-asked question. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:22:51 -0400 When GOD created coal (or did it evolve?) He drew the line of demarkation between anthracite and bituminous at the Susquehanna River. East is anthracite and west is bituminous. Don't ask me why, ask HIM! And let me know what the answer is! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Bezilla To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 >>In a message dated 99-08-19 07:21:22 EDT, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: >> >><< After compiling this list, I noticed an entry >> somewhere in the Chicago area for "Lehigh Valley Coal >> Co." I wonder, was that the same LV Coal Co? Did coal >> from Snow Shoe get shipped to Chicago? >> >> >>Probably, anthracite was used a lot for home heating prior to world war 2. Up >>in Maine I found an old building with a painted on sign boasting of the >>wonders of "Old Company Lehigh's" anthracite. > >Just a reminder that Snow Shoe coal was/is bituminous. The Clearfield and >Centre county deposits contain some of the highest BTU (but highest sulfur) >coal to be found anywhere in the U.S. Both PRR and NYC prized it for use >as for steam coal, and in the era of coal-burning steam navigation, it was >highly sought after by steamship companies, e.g. Cunard Lines, which owned >many mines in the area. -mike > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:22:51 -0400 When GOD created coal (or did it evolve?) He drew the line of demarkation between anthracite and bituminous at the Susquehanna River. East is anthracite and west is bituminous. Don't ask me why, ask HIM! And let me know what the answer is! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Bezilla To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 >>In a message dated 99-08-19 07:21:22 EDT, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: >> >><< After compiling this list, I noticed an entry >> somewhere in the Chicago area for "Lehigh Valley Coal >> Co." I wonder, was that the same LV Coal Co? Did coal >> from Snow Shoe get shipped to Chicago? >> >> >>Probably, anthracite was used a lot for home heating prior to world war 2. Up >>in Maine I found an old building with a painted on sign boasting of the >>wonders of "Old Company Lehigh's" anthracite. > >Just a reminder that Snow Shoe coal was/is bituminous. The Clearfield and >Centre county deposits contain some of the highest BTU (but highest sulfur) >coal to be found anywhere in the U.S. Both PRR and NYC prized it for use >as for steam coal, and in the era of coal-burning steam navigation, it was >highly sought after by steamship companies, e.g. Cunard Lines, which owned >many mines in the area. -mike > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vastano,Sam" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) test message Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:41:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEEB00.ED838760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been getting duplicates of (PRR) New Brass, has anyone else had = thai same problem? Sam svastano@ccia.com ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEEB00.ED838760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been getting duplicates of = (PRR) New=20 Brass, has anyone else had thai same problem?
 
 
Sam
svastano@ccia.com
 
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEEB00.ED838760-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:32:55 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] FYI... Just received dupes of this message. >From the Heart of Hoosierland ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bill Volkmer wrote: > > When GOD created coal (or did it evolve?) He drew the line of demarkation > between anthracite and bituminous at the Susquehanna River. East is > anthracite and west is bituminous. > > Don't ask me why, ask HIM! > > And let me know what the answer is! > > Bill V. > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Bezilla > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 10:56 AM > Subject: Re: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 > > >>In a message dated 99-08-19 07:21:22 EDT, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > >> > >><< After compiling this list, I noticed an entry > >> somewhere in the Chicago area for "Lehigh Valley Coal > >> Co." I wonder, was that the same LV Coal Co? Did coal > >> from Snow Shoe get shipped to Chicago? >> > >> > >>Probably, anthracite was used a lot for home heating prior to world war 2. > Up > >>in Maine I found an old building with a painted on sign boasting of the > >>wonders of "Old Company Lehigh's" anthracite. > > > >Just a reminder that Snow Shoe coal was/is bituminous. The Clearfield and > >Centre county deposits contain some of the highest BTU (but highest sulfur) > >coal to be found anywhere in the U.S. Both PRR and NYC prized it for use > >as for steam coal, and in the era of coal-burning steam navigation, it was > >highly sought after by steamship companies, e.g. Cunard Lines, which owned > >many mines in the area. -mike > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] FYI... Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:56:02 -0400 me too. My first dupe. -----Original Message----- From: Marvin E. Crim To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 1:01 PM Subject: [PRR] FYI... >Just received dupes of this message. > >>From the Heart of Hoosierland >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Bill Volkmer wrote: >> >> When GOD created coal (or did it evolve?) He drew the line of demarkation >> between anthracite and bituminous at the Susquehanna River. East is >> anthracite and west is bituminous. >> >> Don't ask me why, ask HIM! >> >> And let me know what the answer is! >> >> Bill V. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Bezilla >> To: prr-talk@dsop.com >> Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 10:56 AM >> Subject: Re: [prr] Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 >> >> >>In a message dated 99-08-19 07:21:22 EDT, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: >> >> >> >><< After compiling this list, I noticed an entry >> >> somewhere in the Chicago area for "Lehigh Valley Coal >> >> Co." I wonder, was that the same LV Coal Co? Did coal >> >> from Snow Shoe get shipped to Chicago? >> >> >> >> >>Probably, anthracite was used a lot for home heating prior to world war 2. >> Up >> >>in Maine I found an old building with a painted on sign boasting of the >> >>wonders of "Old Company Lehigh's" anthracite. >> > >> >Just a reminder that Snow Shoe coal was/is bituminous. The Clearfield and >> >Centre county deposits contain some of the highest BTU (but highest sulfur) >> >coal to be found anywhere in the U.S. Both PRR and NYC prized it for use >> >as for steam coal, and in the era of coal-burning steam navigation, it was >> >highly sought after by steamship companies, e.g. Cunard Lines, which owned >> >many mines in the area. -mike >> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:25:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Dupe Update 8/20/99 13:34 From: "Jerry Britton" So far today, nobody has reported dupes EXCEPT for the one Gary mentions: --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > I had not recieved any dupes as of a minute ago but just recieved 2 > from Bill V's God and coal thread. Gary Derrick provided the first report of this dupe, and I also received it (my first dupe). I provided a more in-depth report to Derrick, but the headers of that message strongly suggest that it was mailed to my server twice, which of course explains why everyone got it twice. Has anyone received TODAY and dupes of any OTHER messages? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:32:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Volkmer post From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Michael Bezilla >Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999, 1:19 PM > > btw I did get 4 copies of Bill Volkmer's note on bituminous/anthracite > coal. -mike This is the post that everyone is reporting having received two copies of today. It was co-addressed to Mike Bezilla direct. He received four copies (two from the list, two direct). I think in this case, either Bill sent it twice or HIS server did the duping! I have the mail headers which show the two copies arriving inbound to my server at different times. (The time stamp on the message itself, unless you look at the full headers, is when the sender sent the message. The full headers provide the complete history.) Is anyone receiving any OTHER dupes today? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:14:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - REPLY vs. REPLY TO ALL From: "Jerry Britton" I am posting this private e-mail to the list as, oddly enough, it was the second such query today: >From: "Bill Volkmer" > On the other lists I subscribe to, hitting the "reply to" button replies to > the whole list. > > On your PRR Talk list, in order for the reply to go back to the list, I must > hit "reply to all", which then creates two files. > > Tell me what I should be doing! Hit "Reply To All". There is a setting on my listserv that makes it react this way and we purposefully did it per majority vote about 18 months ago. Under one setting (not used), hitting REPLY or REPLY TO ALL sends to the list. Many people were responding and intended for it to only got to the original poster. Messages got personal. Then they showed up on the list unintentionally. Under our setting, hitting REPLY goes to the original poster only. Hitting REPLY TO ALL sends to the list and to the original poster. Again, this was the setting the list membership desired, so be it! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:13:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Coal Movements, Kentucky to Sandusky In a message dated 8/12/99 4:25:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << <<2. Do you know which L&N EK sub minesshipped to which docks that the PRR handled?>> Know of no detailed traffic info of this kind. Normally, this kind of data comes from waybill files, mostly destroyed for both railroads concerned. But Stuart Thayer might have better info on this. >> I don't have any good source of information on this unfortunately. Wish I did. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] FYI... Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:27:13 -0400 Bill's message re coal was my first dupe. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER - REPLY vs. REPLY TO ALL Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:48:17 -0400 Jerry & All, On my e-mail (Outlook Express), I can hit "reply to all," then edit the "To" line to remove the name of the original sender to avoid sending him two of the same message. I imagine most other e-mail systems can be edited similarly. Hope this helps! Bill Bigler -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: Bill Volkmer Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 3:22 PM Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - REPLY vs. REPLY TO ALL >I am posting this private e-mail to the list as, oddly enough, it was the >second such query today: > >>From: "Bill Volkmer" > >> On the other lists I subscribe to, hitting the "reply to" button replies to >> the whole list. >> >> On your PRR Talk list, in order for the reply to go back to the list, I must >> hit "reply to all", which then creates two files. >> >> Tell me what I should be doing! > >Hit "Reply To All". > >There is a setting on my listserv that makes it react this way and we >purposefully did it per majority vote about 18 months ago. > >Under one setting (not used), hitting REPLY or REPLY TO ALL sends to the >list. Many people were responding and intended for it to only got to the >original poster. Messages got personal. Then they showed up on the list >unintentionally. > >Under our setting, hitting REPLY goes to the original poster only. Hitting >REPLY TO ALL sends to the list and to the original poster. > >Again, this was the setting the list membership desired, so be it! >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:33:04 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER - REPLY vs. REPLY TO ALL From: "Eugene Nowlan" From: "Gene Nowlan" Bill et. al. We are dealing eith computers to make life easier. Why should anyone have to edit the To: line on a return message? Set the software for REPLY to go to the originator, and REPLY ALL to go only to the list with no additions. I believe those are the definations of emailers prior to managed lists which many of us understand. Gene Nowlan Corning, NY USA ---------- >From: "Bill Bigler" >To: "Jerry Britton" >Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" >Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER - REPLY vs. REPLY TO ALL >Date: Fri, Aug 20, 1999, 7:48 PM > >Jerry & All, > >On my e-mail (Outlook Express), I can hit "reply to all," then edit the "To" >line to remove the name of the original sender to avoid sending him two of >the same message. I imagine most other e-mail systems can be edited >similarly. Hope this helps! > >Bill Bigler > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerry Britton >To: Bill Volkmer >Cc: PRR-Talk LIST >Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 3:22 PM >Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - REPLY vs. REPLY TO ALL > > >>I am posting this private e-mail to the list as, oddly enough, it was the >>second such query today: >> >>>From: "Bill Volkmer" >> >>> On the other lists I subscribe to, hitting the "reply to" button replies >to >>> the whole list. >>> >>> On your PRR Talk list, in order for the reply to go back to the list, I >must >>> hit "reply to all", which then creates two files. >>> >>> Tell me what I should be doing! >> >>Hit "Reply To All". >> >>There is a setting on my listserv that makes it react this way and we >>purposefully did it per majority vote about 18 months ago. >> >>Under one setting (not used), hitting REPLY or REPLY TO ALL sends to the >>list. Many people were responding and intended for it to only got to the >>original poster. Messages got personal. Then they showed up on the list >>unintentionally. >> >>Under our setting, hitting REPLY goes to the original poster only. Hitting >>REPLY TO ALL sends to the list and to the original poster. >> >>Again, this was the setting the list membership desired, so be it! >>--------------------------------------------------------- >>Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" >> http://kc.pennsyrr.com >>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products >> http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:48:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Sleeping cars in thru service In a message dated 8/13/99 7:57:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time, PRRMAN@aol.com writes: << Example 3: The CN&W/UP/(SP) through cars were not carried in the "Cities" streamliners at this time. In fact, they ran in secondary trains on both sides of Chicago, probably used cars of various color schemes. >> I once had an original slide that showed a PRR heavyweight sleeper sitting in Cheyenne in the late 50's. It was not on a train, but was instead set out. Presumably to be picked up. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:56:22 -0400 From: Michael Hauk Subject: [PRR] Odds and ends Greetings to the list from a lurker! Was sorting through my slide collection, and ran across a few things of interest I had some questions about. I have a couple of slides of GG-1 4935 in PRR DGLE gold 5-stripe scheme taken at Harrisburg in 1978. Why was this engine painted in PRR livery at that time and does it still exist anywhere? Same place, same timeframe, I have slides of a (privately-owned?) business/observation car, also in a PRR paint scheme numbered 120. Is this car still around anywhere? Couple of slides taken of the deadline at the Harrisburg engine terminal (I think), also summer 1978, showing a weird little box-cab type engine with 4-wheel trucks, numbered XH2, but white-lined. Anyone know the origin of this oddity? Was it PRR or possibly NYC? Just curious, Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:42:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Odds and ends In a message dated 99-08-20 17:25:06 EDT, you write: << I have a couple of slides of GG-1 4935 in PRR DGLE gold 5-stripe scheme taken at Harrisburg in 1978. Why was this engine painted in PRR livery at that time and does it still exist anywhere? This engine was repainted by Amtrak at their Wilmington shops. The paint job was paid for by the Phila. Chapter of the NHRS. The engine was picked as it had the original air intakes and was in pretty good mechanical condition. It still exists at the Railroad Museum Of Pa. in Strasburg. It's inside protected from the elements. This G by the way is the only one that still has it's transformer intact. Same place, same timeframe, I have slides of a (privately-owned?) business/observation car, also in a PRR paint scheme numbered 120. Is this car still around anywhere? The 120 was owned by George Pins for a number of years. It is now owned by Bennett Levin of Philadelphia and is still in existance and sees service from time to time. Couple of slides taken of the deadline at the Harrisburg engine terminal (I think), also summer 1978, showing a weird little box-cab type engine with 4-wheel trucks, numbered XH2, but white-lined. Anyone know the origin of this oddity? Was it PRR or possibly NYC? >> I believe what you saw was a steam heat car ex NYC that was used to supply steam to coaches either pulled by a loco without a working steam generator or pass cars stored in yards without steam lines. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 00:11:40 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Crosstalk on Coal Greetings to the group: I have been watching all the talk flying back and forth concerning mines on the Bald Eagle branch, et al, and it occurred to me that some of you might be interested in checking out another list that has recently started up. So, with Jerry's permission, I am extending an invitation for you to try out "Coal@onelist.com" It is, by its own definition, concerned with "any and all aspects of coal mining in the U.S., from mines and mining companies, to the railroads that haul it, to the steel companies and power plants that use it." Now, I'll warn you in advance: it is so new and presently has so few members that it is far from lively--not at all like prr-talk... yet :-). Perhaps if some of you who, like me, are interested in the PRR's on-line coal mines get involved, it will be just as provocative and valuable as prr-talk. (Incidentally, my interest is Indiana coal mining, especially along the PRR in Vigo, Clay, Greene and Knox counties, and particularly in the Bicknell area on the I&V.) Don't forget your hardhat. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] gondola class G30 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:10:47 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEEBAC.AC7B0C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am currently redetailing pair of IHC 50' war emergency gondolas, and = would like to represent Pennsy class G30. Any comments, pictures, plans, = whould be appreciated. Project should work based on page 91 of Bob = Wayner's PRR Pass & Frt Diagrams. Thanks Walt ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEEBAC.AC7B0C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am currently redetailing pair of IHC = 50' war=20 emergency gondolas, and would like to represent Pennsy class G30. = Any=20 comments, pictures, plans, whould be appreciated. Project should work = based on=20 page 91 of Bob Wayner's PRR Pass & Frt Diagrams.
 
Thanks Walt
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEEBAC.AC7B0C00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:22:23 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Full mailbox I was sent a 6.5meg file by e-mail which filled my mailbox completely. It took 3 hours to get it clear. If it caused any bounced messages, I appologize. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://cid.railfan.net/ ============================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ======= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Test...do not respond Date: Sat, 21 Aug 99 22:07:00 -0400 From: Jerry Okay folks, think we found the problem with the dupes. I need to watch this post distribute to narrow it down to one of four subscriber accounts. Looks like one of four candidates has a mal-configured mail host. It is not responding properly and, in the process, is causing my server to hang. Any outgoing mail that was sending concurrent with the aforementioned hang would fail as well...except that it really goes through. The timeout prevents my mail server from receiving the confirmation, so it tries again...and again...until it gets through. Will let you know soon how things stand. Thanks. This was a doozy! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:55:19 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] [PRR]Headlight size in HO Hello, I am replacing a headlight on a loco and I want to know the scale siz diameter e of the either the Precision Scale Co. PRR headlight with bracket or the Cal Scale headlight. Is it 18"? They don't give the dimiensions in the Walthers Catalog..... Does anyone know the diameter of the Cal Scale "Modern" PRR light? Has anyone used any fiber optics kits for lighting? What products did you use? Thanks, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:51:46 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: [PRR] Beyond the fleet of modernism with car 9621 Hi, I was given a small book for my recent birthday containing photos and drawings of Raymond Loewy. It had a just a small amount of PRR stuff, but two things in it caught my eye. You might want to check it out when you're browsing in bookstores (Not enough in it to recommend a purchase). The cover photo of Loewy shows him standing on the S-1 next to the bullet shaped smokebox. This really shows the scale of the engine. The most amazing thing is a "concept" drawing of a self propelled railcar (numbered 9621) done in 1932. It looks like a zeppelin on two 4 wheel trucks, with a propeller on the tapered rear. The engineer sits in a bubble on the front strikingly similar to the bombardier station on the front of a W.W.II bomber. The car is labeled for the PRR and has a winged keystone on the side. It seems to have seating for 32 passengers. It would make a cool model!! (This design must have fooled the NYC into trying a jet propelled car:) The caption implies this work of art was commissioned by the PRR. The book is called Raymond Loewy and Streamlined Design by Philippe Tretiack - part of a series "universe of style" Universe Publishing (a division of Rizzoli). - Bob Vogel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 05:40:28 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] [prr][cr]"Tower of Money-colored Glass" Some weeks ago, someone asked on one of these lists if anyone knew where he could find a copy of an article on the Conrail/CSX/NS deal which mentioned the "Tower of Money-colored Glass". Rejoice, whoever you are. I found a copy of the thing in a dark corner of my hard drive. Now, if I knew who you were, or better yet, had your e-mail address... === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 05:40:28 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] [prr][cr]"Tower of Money-colored Glass" Some weeks ago, someone asked on one of these lists if anyone knew where he could find a copy of an article on the Conrail/CSX/NS deal which mentioned the "Tower of Money-colored Glass". Rejoice, whoever you are. I found a copy of the thing in a dark corner of my hard drive. Now, if I knew who you were, or better yet, had your e-mail address... === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:12:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Coal, was Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 Bill V. asked: >When GOD created coal (or did it evolve?) He drew the line of demarkation >between anthracite and bituminous at the Susquehanna River. East is >anthracite and west is bituminous. What about IN the Susquehanna River? I ask tongue-in-cheek, as I just read the following interesting article "Holtwood's New River Coal Unit" from "Electrical World, February 7, 1955, which states that: "For many years coal has been carried downstream from the Pennsylvania anthracite coal region and deposited in the resevoirs behind the Safe Harbor and Holtwood dams." The article then goes on to state that beginning in 1934, the Pennsylvania Water and Power Co has reclaimed and burned nearly 200,000 tons of this coal per year at the Holtwood plant, and that 50 car loads per day, five days a week were dredged from the Safe Harbor basin and shipped (by rail on the C&PD branch) to Holtwood. Anyone having any further infomation on this operation, PLEASE let me know!!! BTW, this note is particularly timely as I recieved an email last week indicating that the Holtwood steam power plant was torn down within the past two weeks. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:19:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: "Jerry Britton" Just a word to the wise regarding the upcoming PRRT&HS convention... The schedule of events for the "PRR-Talk" track will be included in the registration packet that each attendee receives upon arrival. That means that all 300 or so PRRT&HS members (plus their spouses, etc.) will know about the museum venue. Some have already learned of it and plan to attend. That's great! However, the conference room only holds 70 or so. Therefore, I highly recommend you arrive no later than 11:30 to insure getting a seat. We have a great lineup (http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com) and I don't think you'll want to stand the whole time. We cannot reserve seats, so please do not ask! See you there! 8-) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:18:22 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] FOM cars On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 I wrote: >I am looking at a photo of a PB-70? (smooth side combine) in FOM, #5161? >(the first and third #s are tough!!!). The car appears to be a rebuilt >PB-70 as it has 3 axle trucks and what appears to be the original >roof/diaphragm on the baggage end with a full width diaphragm on the coach >end For further clarification, after some digging, the car is class PB-70f, modified as I described. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Heavyweight Sleeping cars in thru service Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:07:24 -0400 After about 1956 or so all PRR heavyweight sleepers were in a pool and were only used for troop movements and football/convention charters.. This would explain the heavyweight referred to as being in Cheyenne, Wyo. The last one that I can remember was the James Russell Lowell that was used to ferry draftees from Erie to Harrisburg for their draft physicals. That was in about 1966. I vividly remember the last run because the sleeper was on the rear of 580 coming into Renovo and they yanked the coupler out of the front of the sleeper. So a yard engine coupled onto the rear of the loaded Pullman and gave those kids a ride on the Renovo turntable at 3 o'clock in the morning and coupled the good end onto the rear of the waiting southbound passenger train. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Stuthayer@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Sleeping cars in thru service >In a message dated 8/13/99 7:57:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time, PRRMAN@aol.com >writes: > ><< Example 3: The CN&W/UP/(SP) through cars were not carried > in the "Cities" streamliners at this time. In fact, they ran in > secondary trains on both sides of Chicago, probably used > cars of various color schemes. >> > > >I once had an original slide that showed a PRR heavyweight sleeper sitting in >Cheyenne in the late 50's. It was not on a train, but was instead set out. >Presumably to be picked up. > >Stuart Thayer > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:21:29 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Odds and ends Just a few more details on 120. Its name is PENNSYLVANIA. Almost all business cars were assigned to specific executives of the PRR. 120 was the president's car and therefore the most luxurious of the lot. I believe it was also the the car which carried RFK's casket in his funeral train, and Nikita Kruschev (not his casket, unfortunately) during his visit to the USA. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:33:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? From: "Jerry Britton" Okay, I'm nominating myself for the "Idiot of the Day" award. I was working very late Saturday nigher -- Sunday morning -- on the duping problem...literally sitting and watching the console of the mail server. Kind of like watching the grass grow. Real boring. Anyway, seems that when I finished, I inadvertently left the server set to "Disable Outbound SMTP". Translated, don't send mail to anyone!!! SMTP (Simple Mail Transport Protocol) is what gets mail from my server to yours. I hadn't noticed the problem, as my local computers use POP (Post Office Protocol) to send and receive. It wasn't until I got to a remote location today that I knew something was wrong. It should work now. In fact, it's possible there will be a flood of backdated mail flowing through, as the server was accepting incoming mail the whole time! The good news is, you haven't gotten any dupes for 36 hours! ;-) Actually, I did track down the problem. One of our subscribers has a malconfigured, crippled, or downed mail server. It was sending garbage back to my server, which timed out trying to interpret it. Any other outbound connections (up to 7) at the time were cut off and the server interpreted those transfers as incomplete and resent them (the dupes!). I have unsubscribed the individual (was a single for the domain in question) and I have e-mailed them direct. I do not expect a response, and am trying to locate a telephone number via the domains DNS registration at the InterNIC. With the person off the subscriber list, the dupes should not happen, except perhaps for some gremlins remaining in the queue. Apologies for the service break. You should be seeing posts shortly! ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:30:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Test Test only. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] Hunt tower Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:27:19 -0400 Greetings to the group, Would anyone on the list know if Hunt tower will be open for visitation this Friday am. I'll be travelling to the convention in Altoona that morning and am thinking of taking a route along the Middle Division rather than the boring Turnpike. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Dupes Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:29:36 -0400 Jerry, Recieved 3 copies of R Hensley's "full mailbox" on Sat and 2 more today(Mon.) Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:57:54 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Hoss's Dinner Procedures Greetings to the group, The fine folks at Hoss's will be ready for us on Friday. We will be in their special dining room. It has a nice RR motiff. We do not need to go through the line. When we arrive, let them know you are with the Pennsylvania Railroad Talk group and you should be able to proceed back to the special dining room. They will take our oders there. They will also add 15% to our bills for the gratuity. They have really treated us great in the past so I look forward to good food and fellowship on Friday. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:23:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Cincinnati station (suburban) Gentlemen (and ladies), The appeal for info below is on behalf of the Cincinnati Railroad Club. They have asked me to extend their search for information on the PRR Norwood station. IIRC, this Art Deco structure still stands, although it's a challenge to find. I don't think I've ever read the first whisper about this station. Even Carl Condit's The Railroad and the City (a great reference on Cincinnati's passenger operations) seems to be silent on the subject. Can anyone point us to materials on this subject, either in PRRT&HS archives, or in other files? Many thanks, Rick Tipton In a message dated 8/23/99 8:06:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: << Rick, We're talking about the Norwood, Ohio PRR station, the one built in conjunction with C.U.T. in 1933. It has to be the last suburban station built in this area. It's Raymond Lowey Art Deco all over and we were wondering what kind of documentation is available for modeling & stuff. Let me know. PTR >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:32:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Beyond the fleet of modernism with car 9621 In a message dated 8/23/1999 6:55:00 PM Central Daylight Time, bobv@nantucket.net writes: << You might want to check it out when you're browsing in bookstores (Not enough in it to recommend a purchase) >> <> Funny coincidence. I just bought the book "Locomotive" by Raymond Loewy (issued at the time of the introduction of 3678) over the internet. Again, I would not recommend it for purchase as it is heavy on other primarily streamlined designs and low on PRR, except 3678 (I am a Loewy fan since age 11, so it is OK for the collection). My wife(gift shopping) and I have been searching for one which has more of his S1 and 3678 sketches and I am particularly looking for more text (the book I have is basically a photo book). If anyone else has recommendations of Loewy's titles I'd appreciate their input (offline if this bores everyone else) as it is hard to evaluate some over the internet. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] [PRR]Headlight size in HO Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:53:32 -0500 Roger--I haven't measured the headlights in question, but I use MV lens 166 for the "modern" headlite (190-235) and 180 for either 190-477 or 190-202, so that is .166" and .180". Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] [PRR]Headlight size in HO Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:53:32 -0500 Roger--I haven't measured the headlights in question, but I use MV lens 166 for the "modern" headlite (190-235) and 180 for either 190-477 or 190-202, so that is .166" and .180". Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] [PRR]Headlight size in HO Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:53:32 -0500 Roger--I haven't measured the headlights in question, but I use MV lens 166 for the "modern" headlite (190-235) and 180 for either 190-477 or 190-202, so that is .166" and .180". Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Coal, was Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:56:25 -0400 I remember in the Fifties that there was a coal dredging operation in the Susquehanna River. I think it was north of Millersburg. Some of the equipment is still visible on the west side of Rt. 15. Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: jcassattjr@webtv.net Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 9:49 PM Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Coal, was Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 >Bill V. asked: >>When GOD created coal (or did it evolve?) He drew the line of demarkation >>between anthracite and bituminous at the Susquehanna River. East is >>anthracite and west is bituminous. > >What about IN the Susquehanna River? I ask tongue-in-cheek, as I just read >the following interesting article "Holtwood's New River Coal Unit" from >"Electrical World, February 7, 1955, which states that: > >"For many years coal has been carried downstream from the Pennsylvania >anthracite coal region and deposited in the resevoirs behind the Safe >Harbor and Holtwood dams." > >The article then goes on to state that beginning in 1934, the Pennsylvania >Water and Power Co has reclaimed and burned nearly 200,000 tons of this >coal per year at the Holtwood plant, and that 50 car loads per day, five >days a week were dredged from the Safe Harbor basin and shipped (by rail on >the C&PD branch) to Holtwood. Anyone having any further infomation on >this operation, PLEASE let me know!!! > >BTW, this note is particularly timely as I recieved an email last week >indicating that the Holtwood steam power plant was torn down within the >past two weeks. > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics Web Site Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:01:29 -0400 Hello PRR fans; We at Rail Classics www.railclassics.com have up-dated our web site this past weekend with new info on our projects, especially the E-6s and the F-38. There is also new info on the PRR Overhead Watering Unit, which we would like your input on. As this is a unit that will be used on a layout, some adjustment may have to be made to the overall length to function properly spanning "HO SCALE" tracks with roadbed installed. E-Mail us with your comments. Thanks, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:28:18 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Raymond Loewy Another Loewy autobiography is _Never Leave Well Enough Alone_, also a history of his entire career. Interesting if you are a Loewy buff, but also, not 100% railroads. But, then, neither was his career. Steve Bartlett Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > >..... > If anyone else has recommendations of Loewy's titles I'd appreciate their > input (offline if this bores everyone else) as it is hard to evaluate some > over the internet. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:48:55 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? Jerry Britton wrote: > I inadvertently left the server set to > "Disable Outbound SMTP". Translated, don't send mail to anyone!!! Aha... that's why all weekend I felt like the guy in the British Airways commercial... where is evrybodyyyyyyy???? Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DF Cramer" Subject: [PRR] PA License # Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:08:49 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEEDFF.83B56860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just received my new Preserve Our Heritage license from Harrisburg. =20 #144 Any idea if there was a PRR Steam Locomotive with that number and what = it was? Thank you in advance. DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor =20 dfc1@alltel.net www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEEDFF.83B56860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just received my new Preserve Our = Heritage=20 license from Harrisburg. 
#144
Any idea if = there was a PRR=20 Steam Locomotive with that number and what it was?
Thank you in advance.
 
DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor  &nbs= p;       =20
           &nb= sp;         =20 dfc1@alltel.net
   =    =20 www.geocities.com/Vienna/66= 52
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEEDFF.83B56860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:03:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Test, Ignore From: "Jerry Britton" Still working away on the problem. I can see what is happening, but am still researching the "why". Made a setting change and I need to see how this post distributes. We were set up that the mail server receives posts, the listserv picks them up and adds headers and footers and creates a distribution list, then the mail server does the distribution. Today I am letting the listserv do the distribution itself, to see if that makes a difference. I appreciate your patience. If you "can't take it", might I suggest temporarily changing to digest mode. Send a message with the subject "subscribe digest prr-talk" to "listserv@dsop.com". That command will switch you to digest without the need to unsubscribe from the regular mode. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:04:54 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] PA License # According to the 1944 M.P.229, you have a choice. If your a Long Island fan you could have a G53sd, or if you want to stay with the PRR your a B6sb assigned to the Eastern Region, Eastern Pennsylvania Division, Phila. Division. Cos wsbcos.com DF Cramer wrote: > I just received my new Preserve Our Heritage license from > Harrisburg.#144Any idea if there was a PRR Steam Locomotive with that > number and what it was?Thank you in > advance. DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor > dfc1@alltel.net > www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:12:59 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 6:02 AM Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? >The good news is, you haven't gotten any dupes for 36 hours! ;-) Wanna bet??? I just got a dozen copies of Bob Netzlof's post of "Tower of Money Colored Glass"...interestingly enough, they all were sent at various times from 12ish to 8ish am. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:12:59 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 6:02 AM Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? >The good news is, you haven't gotten any dupes for 36 hours! ;-) Wanna bet??? I just got a dozen copies of Bob Netzlof's post of "Tower of Money Colored Glass"...interestingly enough, they all were sent at various times from 12ish to 8ish am. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:12:59 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 6:02 AM Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? >The good news is, you haven't gotten any dupes for 36 hours! ;-) Wanna bet??? I just got a dozen copies of Bob Netzlof's post of "Tower of Money Colored Glass"...interestingly enough, they all were sent at various times from 12ish to 8ish am. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:20:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? From: "Jerry Britton" Bill: I was referring to the 36 hours the server wasn't sending ANY mail. Midnight, Aug. 21 to noon, Aug. 23! If you got dupes during that period, you got them telepathically! Is anyone receiving dupes today...since 6:30 a.m., that is? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------- >From: "Bill Daniels" >To: "Jerry Britton" , "PRR-Talk LIST" >Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? >Date: Tue, Aug 24, 1999, 9:12 AM > >>The good news is, you haven't gotten any dupes for 36 hours! ;-) > Wanna bet??? I just got a dozen copies of Bob Netzlof's post of "Tower of > Money Colored Glass"...interestingly enough, they all were sent at various > times from 12ish to 8ish am. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:47:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Renumbering on the NS Does anyone have a list of the Conrail engines that NS is renumbering with PRR reporting marks? I am looking for engine type, CR number and new PRR number. I know this is a bit off topic, but thank you for the indulgence. Jay Keese Alexandria, VA NVNTRAK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:58:57 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] PA License # > DF Cramer wrote: > >> I just received my new Preserve Our Heritage license from >> Harrisburg.#144 I got mine over the counter at the AAA. #3756, which according to information in _Pennsy Power_ was a K4 outshopped at Juniata in 1920-something. Luck of the draw, I guess. 'course, I'd sooner of had a 100-series Cumberland Valley H6sb, but ... Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR License plate    DF Cramer,           The PRR Loco's that had #144 for the road number were the following. G2 4-6-0, H3b 2-8-0, A3 0-4-0 and then finally a B6sb 0-6-0......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:39:46 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Renumbering on the NS You might want to check out http://www.rrhistorical-2.com/crts/dispn.html where they have a decent list of the changes. Hope this helps you out! On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 Jpk815@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone have a list of the Conrail engines that NS is renumbering with >PRR reporting marks? I am looking for engine type, CR number and new PRR >number. I know this is a bit off topic, but thank you for the indulgence. > >Jay Keese >Alexandria, VA >NVNTRAK > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Coal, was Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:48:44 -0400 We had a similar operation when I was working at Northumberland. There was a "settling basin" located just west of Weigh Scales on the Shamokin Branch, east of Sunbury. (This was in 1964). A settling basin is where the water runs off from washing the coal at the breaker prior to loading it out in hoppers. So this "slush" was anthracite and the power plants of course all burned bituminous. The grates in the boilers are all set for a certain ash content and therefore only a certain mine can feed a certain power plant. Besides the slush being anthracite, it was like powder, not chunks of coal. Some enterprising person purchased the whole settling basin on speculation and the PP&L built a plant at nearby Selinsgrove with four boilers, two for bituminous and two for the slush. So front end loaders loaded out the slush and the Weigh Scales switch crew would bring it down to Northumberland every day and the Selinsgrove Branch local would drop it off on the opposite side of the Susquehanna. Does this make me a member of the Keepers Of Odd Knowledge Society? (KOOKS?) Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: jcassattjr@webtv.net Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 8:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Coal, was Mines on Bald Eagle Branch, 1923 >Bill V. asked: >>When GOD created coal (or did it evolve?) He drew the line of demarkation >>between anthracite and bituminous at the Susquehanna River. East is >>anthracite and west is bituminous. > >What about IN the Susquehanna River? I ask tongue-in-cheek, as I just read >the following interesting article "Holtwood's New River Coal Unit" from >"Electrical World, February 7, 1955, which states that: > >"For many years coal has been carried downstream from the Pennsylvania >anthracite coal region and deposited in the resevoirs behind the Safe >Harbor and Holtwood dams." > >The article then goes on to state that beginning in 1934, the Pennsylvania >Water and Power Co has reclaimed and burned nearly 200,000 tons of this >coal per year at the Holtwood plant, and that 50 car loads per day, five >days a week were dredged from the Safe Harbor basin and shipped (by rail on >the C&PD branch) to Holtwood. Anyone having any further infomation on >this operation, PLEASE let me know!!! > >BTW, this note is particularly timely as I recieved an email last week >indicating that the Holtwood steam power plant was torn down within the >past two weeks. > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Renumbering on the NS Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:54:23 -0400 Go to the Conrail technical society website. They have the complete list updated periodically. -----Original Message----- From: Jpk815@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: n_scale@onelist.com Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 11:08 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Renumbering on the NS >Does anyone have a list of the Conrail engines that NS is renumbering with >PRR reporting marks? I am looking for engine type, CR number and new PRR >number. I know this is a bit off topic, but thank you for the indulgence. > >Jay Keese >Alexandria, VA >NVNTRAK > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Car assignments (120) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:36:34 -0400 The 120 in the early 1960s was assigned to J.M. Symes, Chairman of the Board. After PRR bought the Adolphus from Anhauser Busch in 1964, the 120 went to the President who in those days was Stuart Saunders. 7504 was A.J. Greenough's car, 90 was D.C. Bevan's, 180 and 7507 were pool cars as I remember and 7510 was assigned to Pittsburgh for Mort Smith. Of course when discussing business car assignments, one must assign a specific date because they were ever changing. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller To: KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: dochauk@erie.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Odds and ends >Just a few more details on 120. > >Its name is PENNSYLVANIA. > Almost all business cars were assigned to specific executives of the >PRR. 120 was the president's car and therefore the most luxurious of >the lot. I believe it was also the the car which carried RFK's casket >in his funeral train, and Nikita Kruschev (not his casket, >unfortunately) during his visit to the USA. >-- >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >=================================================== > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:36:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Car assignments (120) From: "Jerry Britton" >From: "Bill Volkmer" > > The 120 in the early 1960s was assigned to J.M. Symes, Chairman of the > Board. After PRR bought the Adolphus from Anhauser Busch in 1964, the 120 > went to the President who in those days was Stuart Saunders. 7504 was A.J. > Greenough's car, 90 was D.C. Bevan's, 180 and 7507 were pool cars as I > remember and 7510 was assigned to Pittsburgh for Mort Smith. > > > Of course when discussing business car assignments, one must assign a > specific date because they were ever changing. Excellent info, Bill! Any chance of a reference to satisfy those who need to know? How early was the 120 assigned to the chairman? Specifically, would it have been in 1954? What car was assigned to the president in 1954? FWIW: Rail Classics is producing the following of the above, in brass, late this year or early next: Z-74d #120, the "PENNSYLVANIA" in Buff striping and lettering, 4 wheel trucks and round roof Z-74 #7504, the "QUAKER CITY" in Gold Leaf/Black striping and lettering, 4 wheel trucks and original roof Z-74d #7507, the "BALTIMORE" in Gold Leaf/Black striping and lettering, 4 wheel trucks and round roof Z-74d #7510, the "PITTSBURGHER", in Buff striping and lettering, 4 wheel trucks and original roof Not mentioned in Bill's post, but also being done by Rail Classics: Z-74c # 7502, the "CHICAGOAN" in Gold Leaf/Black striping and lettering, 4 wheel trucks and original roof Z-74 #7506, the "ILLINOIS" in Buff striping and lettering, 6 wheel trucks and round roof Z-74e #7511, the "DUQUESNE", in Gold Leaf/Black striping and lettering, 6 wheel trucks and original roof Rail Classics has photos of these cars on their web site (http://www.railclassics.com). Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Car assignments (120) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:46:35 -0400 As a Gang Foreman at Penn Coach Yard in Philadelphia from April 1962 until April 1963, I had charge of the steam heat, air conditioning, and plumbing maintenance on the five business cars that were stationed there. I don't have personnal knowledge of who was assigned the cars in 1954 but I do have a complete set of Pennsy Diagram books that details the configuration of each car. The names changed over the years, and I seem to recall the 7507 being named the "Philadelphia" in 1962. Could be wrong. The 7510 Pittsburgher was the only other operative business car at that time. I seem to remember the " Williamsport" being stored at Wilmington about that time out of service and one other, possibly the Columbus, but don't remember where it was. The 7504 got more mechanical attention than all the others put together because it was a notoriously rough rider and they were always experimenting with new designs of shock absorbers on it. After I exhume the diagram books from my garage, I may be able to comment more authoritatively on the subject. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Car assignments (120) >>From: "Bill Volkmer" >> >> The 120 in the early 1960s was assigned to J.M. Symes, Chairman of the >> Board. After PRR bought the Adolphus from Anhauser Busch in 1964, the 120 >> went to the President who in those days was Stuart Saunders. 7504 was A.J. >> Greenough's car, 90 was D.C. Bevan's, 180 and 7507 were pool cars as I >> remember and 7510 was assigned to Pittsburgh for Mort Smith. >> >> >> Of course when discussing business car assignments, one must assign a >> specific date because they were ever changing. > >Excellent info, Bill! Any chance of a reference to satisfy those who need to >know? > >How early was the 120 assigned to the chairman? Specifically, would it have >been in 1954? What car was assigned to the president in 1954? > >FWIW: Rail Classics is producing the following of the above, in brass, late >this year or early next: > >Z-74d #120, the "PENNSYLVANIA" in Buff striping and lettering, 4 wheel >trucks and round roof > >Z-74 #7504, the "QUAKER CITY" in Gold Leaf/Black striping and lettering, 4 >wheel trucks and original roof > >Z-74d #7507, the "BALTIMORE" in Gold Leaf/Black striping and lettering, 4 >wheel trucks and round roof > >Z-74d #7510, the "PITTSBURGHER", in Buff striping and lettering, 4 wheel >trucks and original roof > >Not mentioned in Bill's post, but also being done by Rail Classics: > >Z-74c # 7502, the "CHICAGOAN" in Gold Leaf/Black striping and lettering, 4 >wheel trucks and original roof > >Z-74 #7506, the "ILLINOIS" in Buff striping and lettering, 6 wheel trucks >and round roof > >Z-74e #7511, the "DUQUESNE", in Gold Leaf/Black striping and lettering, 6 >wheel trucks and original roof > >Rail Classics has photos of these cars on their web site >(http://www.railclassics.com). Enjoy! >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:15:30 -0400 Jerry, Got 3 of this 9:50 am, 10:57 pm, 12:56 pm. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billd@gci-net.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 9:13 AM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 6:02 AM Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Idiot of the Day? >The good news is, you haven't gotten any dupes for 36 hours! ;-) Wanna bet??? I just got a dozen copies of Bob Netzlof's post of "Tower of Money Colored Glass"...interestingly enough, they all were sent at various times from 12ish to 8ish am. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DF Cramer" Subject: [PRR] license # Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:20:00 -0400 Thank you to all that replied. My roomie unfortunately gave me the wrong number of the plate. It is 145. Any help? (I also turned off the HTML) DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor dfc1@alltel.net www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:35:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Please Stop By At Convention! From: "Jerry Britton" To all those going to the convention: I will have a vendors table with the sign "PENNSYRR.COM". I'd like to invite you all to stop by and introduce yourselves. I know many of you from last year's convention in Lancaster or from the prior two RailFest's in Altoona. I will be in the vendor's room on Friday until around 11 a.m. My table will then close up as I move the museum for the "PRR-Talk" sessions. Following the "PRR-Talk" dinner at Hoss's, I will return to my table from approximately 7 p.m. until closing time at 10 p.m. I'm sure we'll adjourn to some watering hole thereafter! On Saturday I will be in the vendor's room most of the day, following the annual meeting. I will be staying for the evening events as well. My booth will have the Miracle Castings staff on hand, demonstrating their models. Both BP20 and Erie-built shells will be available, as will numerous Bowser locomotives and freight cars, Red Caboose X-29's in many variations, Kalmbach's "Pennsy Streamliners" book, Morning Sun's "Pennsylvania: Standard Railroad of the World" book, and Digital Image Works' new "Pennsy Army-Navy Games: 1955-1965" video! If you can't stop by, or won't be there, all of the aforementioned are available via the eStore (below). Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR #145 plate DF Crammer #145 was the following. G2 4-6-0, H3 2-8-0, and H8sb 2-8-0 .........Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BudPCCRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:58:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR #644 plate My plate is # 644. Was that a valid engine #? Bud Brock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR #644 Bud...., #644 was an H1 2-8-0 and an F3c 2-6-0......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:15:07 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] Elephant Style This may seem like a silly question, but I really don't know the answer. When E-Units are running elephant style, can a crewman move from one locomotive to another while the train is in motion? What about GG-1's? They have drop steps, so movement from one loco to another seems possible. Finally, if two E-units are running back to back, so the nose of the second loco faces the train, can a crewman move from a loco into a passenger car? Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:15:07 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] Elephant Style This may seem like a silly question, but I really don't know the answer. When E-Units are running elephant style, can a crewman move from one locomotive to another while the train is in motion? What about GG-1's? They have drop steps, so movement from one loco to another seems possible. Finally, if two E-units are running back to back, so the nose of the second loco faces the train, can a crewman move from a loco into a passenger car? Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:35:51 -0400 From: Christopher Chany Subject: Re: [PRR] Elephant Style Andy, Yes, There is a door in the front of the E right under the headlight. On units tha have a second headlight it is in the door. GG-1s also had a door in both ends. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:46:49 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] Elephant Style John Sheets wrote: > > the answers are YES, YES and YES, both the GG-1s and the E's have "front" doors > Thanks for the response. I realize they all have nose doors, it just seems like a crewman is getting into a precarious position trying to enter a nose door from the outside. I took the couplers off of two of my P2K locos to see how things line up. Using my unscientific method, it looks like about 3 feet. I seem to recall the distance between locos coupled back to back is 3 feet. So I guess a "nose-to-back" coupling would have 18" of diaphragm, and 18" of open space. I guess thats not too dangerous. Is that enough room to open the door? Do they open in or out? I thought they open out, so that during a collision there is less a chance of something entering the cab. What is the actual distance someone has to step, or jump? Can someone explain passing from loco to loco in a little more detail, remembering I'm interested in how it's done while at speed? > Andy Cich wrote: > > > This may seem like a silly question, but I really don't know the answer. > > When E-Units are running elephant style, can a crewman move from one > > locomotive to another while the train is in motion? > > > > What about GG-1's? They have drop steps, so movement from one loco to > > another seems possible. > > > > Finally, if two E-units are running back to back, so the nose of the > > second loco faces the train, can a crewman move from a loco into a > > passenger car? > > > > Andy C. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:10:03 -0400 From: Phil Tripician Subject: [PRR] Engine # 145 Subject: Re: [PRR] license # 145 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:01:32 -0400 From: Phil Tripician To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com References: 1 # 145 in its career was a: Class D (Twice), a Class G-2, a Class H-3, and finally a class H8sb. Source is Keystone Steam & Electric by Edson pg 21. Trip DF Cramer wrote: > Thank you to all that replied. My roomie unfortunately gave me the wrong > number of the plate. It is 145. Any help? > (I also turned off the HTML) > > DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor > dfc1@alltel.net > www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:08:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Elephant Style Andy can't tell you about from E to E but I can tell you about from observation deck to E. I had the good fortune to ride the Conrail OCS last year from Altoona to Harrisburg and back including up and down Horseshoe curve. I got to cross from the obs deck of car #4 to the nose of 4021 while moving at 60 mph on the Middle Division. All this while holding a video camera. One can easily reach the door handle on the E and open it but crossing with the roadbed moving under your feet at 60 mph is a bit unnerving. There were no safety chains between so those grabs on the sides of the nose door came in real handy. I imagine that nose to tail E's would be somewhat closer than a passenger car. It was worth it to sit in the firemans seat in an ex PRR E on the Middle Division and look back over the 8 car OCS. Wish I could do it again. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Elephant Style E Units Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:30:57 -0400 On the Pennsy the answer was always yes, although they couldn't operate elephant style until about 1957 when they started putting nose jumpers on (PRR men used to refer to them as "nose plugs"!) However, on the Southern Ry. (and others who operated them) the E-6s were delivered without nose doors and Southern cut the doors into the noses when they added MU plugs. I don't think any of the other railroads modified their E-6s. Pennsy never owned any E-6s. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Cich To: PRR Mailing List Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 8:04 PM Subject: [PRR] Elephant Style >This may seem like a silly question, but I really don't know the answer. >When E-Units are running elephant style, can a crewman move from one >locomotive to another while the train is in motion? > >What about GG-1's? They have drop steps, so movement from one loco to >another seems possible. > >Finally, if two E-units are running back to back, so the nose of the >second loco faces the train, can a crewman move from a loco into a >passenger car? > > > >Andy C. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Elephant Style Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:07:55 -0400 The E unit doors opened in and the shark doors opened outwards. None of the Sharks ever had nose jumpers added. The FMs had nose jumpers added and I believe THAT would have been a little unsafe to go from one unit to another. Never tried it. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Cich To: PRR Mailing List Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 12:15 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Elephant Style >John Sheets wrote: >> >> the answers are YES, YES and YES, both the GG-1s and the E's have "front" doors >> > >Thanks for the response. I realize they all have nose doors, it just >seems like a crewman is getting into a precarious position trying to >enter a nose door from the outside. I took the couplers off of two of >my P2K locos to see how things line up. Using my unscientific method, >it looks like about 3 feet. I seem to recall the distance between locos >coupled back to back is 3 feet. So I guess a "nose-to-back" coupling >would have 18" of diaphragm, and 18" of open space. I guess thats not >too dangerous. Is that enough room to open the door? Do they open in >or out? I thought they open out, so that during a collision there is >less a chance of something entering the cab. What is the actual >distance someone has to step, or jump? > >Can someone explain passing from loco to loco in a little more detail, >remembering I'm interested in how it's done while at speed? > > >> Andy Cich wrote: >> >> > This may seem like a silly question, but I really don't know the answer. >> > When E-Units are running elephant style, can a crewman move from one >> > locomotive to another while the train is in motion? >> > >> > What about GG-1's? They have drop steps, so movement from one loco to >> > another seems possible. >> > >> > Finally, if two E-units are running back to back, so the nose of the >> > second loco faces the train, can a crewman move from a loco into a >> > passenger car? >> > >> > Andy C. >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:49:08 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Elephant Style >> Andy Cich wrote: >> > What about GG-1's? They have drop steps, so movement from one loco to >> > another seems possible. and later wrote: >I guess thats not >too dangerous. Is that enough room to open the door? Do they open in >or out? I thought they open out, so that during a collision there is >less a chance of something entering the cab. What is the actual >distance someone has to step, or jump? The nose doors on the gg-1 opened in. If you look very carefully at photos of the gg-1 in service, you will see the safety chains, usually hanging across the door. On MUed units, these would stretch between the units...Lets just say I wouldn't look forward to crossing between units at 90 MPH at night in January! Of course, you do need to remember that at least all of the locos you mention had car bodies! Just think about doing the same thing while having to walk down the exposed side of a geep or a U-boat! (there is an excellent tale of such a thing in the recent Trains Magazine GE issue) And of course, the WHY behind making such a trip? Usually the fireman was sent back to check on some mechanical/electrical problem... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:19:00 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Info Exchange pages Hi All, I wanted to pass on the following message from Bill Morlitz: Hello, My name is Bill Morlitz and I'm the Superintendent of the PRRT&HS website (that means I get to answer all the e-mail). I'm writing to ask for your help. Steve (the webmaster) and I have just recently re-formatted the "Information Exchange" to make it similar to a list. People can post questions and answers directly to the "Exchange". Needless to say, we need all the expertise we can muster. If any of you have any extra time to help out, the questions can be viewed at: http://www.prrths.com/InfoDefault.htm This part of the website is in a frames format so your browser must support that requirement. Usually, any browser version 4.X or higher will suffice. Many thanks, Bill Happy Rails, and enjoy the convention! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillJewett@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:17:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Elephant Style E Units In a message dated 8/25/99, herzog1@gate.net writes: << I don't think any of the other railroads modified their E-6s.>> SAL (my "other" favorite rr) created a kind of mini-diaphragm in the nose of at least some of its E4's and E6's. A cut-out panel about a foot wider and taller than the nose door itself was hinged at the bottom so it could be tilted forward to a vertical position. The standard nose door still opened inward but was now much closer to the nose-coupled other unit or car. With its E7's, having a more vertical nose, this approach was abandoned in favor of extended handrails that stuck out 1-2 feet or about as far as the buffer plate. Both approaches were ugly but obviously safer as SAL seemed to prefer running all cab units in a lashup facing forward. Bill Dune Acres IN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Radebaugh Branch Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:24:07 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Izzo To: Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 3:20 PM Subject: Radebaugh Branch > PRRMAN@aol.com asked about the configuration of the Radebaugh branch with > respect to the mainline at RG tower. > > On August 21, we rode on a fan trip from Youngwood, PA to the beginning of > the Radebaugh branch. The branch does parallel the main line for 0.9 miles > in an Eastward direction before turning south. The Radebaugh siding is also > intact. > > The fan trip was conducted by the Laurel Highlands Railroad. On that trip > two coaches, a reading and a PRR P70 were pulled by a "kitbashed" Porter > 2-4-0. I say kitbashed because this Porter locomotive was originally an > 0-4-0T. The people at the Laural Highs Railroad removed the tank, added a > pilot truck and bought a tender. > > My Grandfather ran the 0-4-0T at the West Penn Power Co's Connellsville > Power Plant, pulling cars loaded with coal into and ashes out of the plant. > It was called the "Dinky". It sat in front of the Connellsville City Hall > and then along US Route 119 near the river after retirement from the Power > Plant. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: R2fcltnc@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:21:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Mount Union Looking for information to model the Mount Union station. Station was located lower than track level and there was some sort of a baggage elevator. May have been similar to the station at Newport. Let's see what's out there. Thanks in advance. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:03:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Car assignments (120) > The names changed over the years, and I seem to recall the 7507 being named > the "Philadelphia" in 1962. Could be wrong. The 7510 Pittsburgher was the > only other operative business car at that time. 7507 is now at the Galveston Island Railroad Museum and is called the Martin W. Clement - if, that is, the car number is correct. According to information provided by the Museum, the car was the personal business car of M.W. Clement. It was found by Clement's son and restored to the way he remembered it from his father's tenure as President of the PRR. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:03:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Car assignments (120) > The names changed over the years, and I seem to recall the 7507 being named > the "Philadelphia" in 1962. Could be wrong. The 7510 Pittsburgher was the > only other operative business car at that time. 7507 is now at the Galveston Island Railroad Museum and is called the Martin W. Clement - if, that is, the car number is correct. According to information provided by the Museum, the car was the personal business car of M.W. Clement. It was found by Clement's son and restored to the way he remembered it from his father's tenure as President of the PRR. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:03:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Car assignments (120) > The names changed over the years, and I seem to recall the 7507 being named > the "Philadelphia" in 1962. Could be wrong. The 7510 Pittsburgher was the > only other operative business car at that time. 7507 is now at the Galveston Island Railroad Museum and is called the Martin W. Clement - if, that is, the car number is correct. According to information provided by the Museum, the car was the personal business car of M.W. Clement. It was found by Clement's son and restored to the way he remembered it from his father's tenure as President of the PRR. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Dupes, Denial of Service Attack Date: Wed, 25 Aug 99 20:42:47 -0400 From: Jerry The latest... I had previously reported being able to observe WHEN an incident of duping was caused, but not why. Some of my sleuthing has paid off, and it appears that there are several causes. First, the new mail server is not cleared of problems. It "may" be part of the problem. Second, I identified four remote mail servers that were not responding properly when my mail server tried to send to them. Their "response" was causing a "freeze" on all of my servers SMTP (mail) channels and was preventing "message received OK" replies from being received by other messages the server was sending at the time. This caused my server to resend the other messages, creating the dupes. I have now been in contact with two of these domains. One reported a problem at their end immediately. The other reported that nothing had changed at their end and everything looked normal. However, they later reported back to me that the same problem had developed with some of their own accounts...so something must have been up. Third, my site was being bombarded with a "denial of service" attack. More than one individual was attempting to download multiple large files from my site concurrently. Now, most know that my site only has a 56K connection. So, it stands to reason that, by starting numerous downloads, you are only choking the line...a line shared by the listserv and mail server. For anyone that wants multiple files, that's what the CD-ROMs are for...to prevent this problem. To put things in perspective, my web site averages anywhere from 100,000K-200,000K of throughput per day. These "denial of service" attacks have moved that much higher. On Monday, 1,590,125K was downloaded. Yesterday, 2,241,683K. Today, ...we'll see. Remember, a 56K connection! To combat this senseless use of my server and connection, the server now flags anyone creating more than 5 connections. Their IP address is recorded and they are denied future access until I permit otherwise. I can resolve these IP addresses and I know what domains they are from. If attempts continue from the same domains, I can assure the offenders will be hearing from my attorney, real fast!!! Hopefully all will resolve itself at this point. My server is now back to a "normal" load and hopefully the dupes will disappear over the next 24 hours. If they do not, I apologize, as I will be attending the PRRT&HS convention and will not be able to address the problem again until Sunday. Thank you for your very polite patience! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:38:08 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Radebaugh Branch Carl Izzo wrote: > > > > The fan trip was conducted by the Laurel Highlands Railroad. On that trip > > two coaches, a reading and a PRR P70 were pulled by a "kitbashed" Porter > > 2-4-0. I say kitbashed because this Porter locomotive was originally an > > 0-4-0T. The people at the Laural Highs Railroad removed the tank, added a > > pilot truck and bought a tender. Our club rode the line from Scottdale to Mt. Pleasant a few years ago and I talked with the owner. The tender is built from a frame he thinks was from the N&W. Special castings were produced to adapt the trucks to the tender and Trailer Train 28" wheels were used to get the deck down to match the Porter. The lead truck isn't just stuck on for looks either, it's actually equalized with the front drive axle. Talk about kitbashing!! Have fun, J.W.Rosenbauer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:49:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Elephant Style In a message dated 8/25/1999 8:04:05 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Just think about doing the same thing while having to walk down the exposed side of a geep or a U-boat! (there is an excellent tale of such a thing in the recent Trains Magazine GE issue) >> I could be wrong, but I don't think a walk back through an operating covered wagon unit was a walk in the park, either. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:49:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Elephant Style In a message dated 8/25/1999 8:04:05 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Just think about doing the same thing while having to walk down the exposed side of a geep or a U-boat! (there is an excellent tale of such a thing in the recent Trains Magazine GE issue) >> I could be wrong, but I don't think a walk back through an operating covered wagon unit was a walk in the park, either. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:34:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Business Car assignments Just to add to the discussion, as most of you may know, the DUQUESNE, car number 7511 is in Altoona, Pa. It is now owned by the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, National Railway Historical Society (formerly Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum). The car is presently at Union Tank Car Company in Altoona (former PRR passenger car paint shop works). The car has been sandblasted and will be cosmetically restored to original condition for subsequent display at Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum at some future date. Question: Are there any specifications which document the sidewall insulation in these cars? Speculation: Rock-wool. Fear: Asbestos. If anyone has any information on this question, would appreciate a reply. David Seidel Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 00:25:41 -0400 From: Chris Behe Subject: [PRR] Re: --=====================_630426==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David Seidel, Historian, Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS wrote: > >Just to add to the discussion, as most of you may know, the DUQUESNE, car >number 7511 is in Altoona, Pa. It is now owned by the Horseshoe Curve >Chapter, National Railway Historical Society (formerly Altoona Railroader's >Memorial Museum). The car is presently at Union Tank Car Company in Altoona >(former PRR passenger car paint shop works). The car has been sandblasted >and will be cosmetically restored to original condition for subsequent >display at Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum at some future date. > Photos of the Duquesne and some of those from the restoration are posted on the Horseshoe Curve Chapter web site at www.trainweb.org/horseshoe curve-nrhs/rstock.htm . Other cars owned by the chapter are posted there as well. Horseshoe Curve Chapter, National Railway Historical Society PO Box 1361 Altoona, PA 16603 __________________________________________ Editor of "The Coal Bucket" and web page Chris Behe, 955 Southgate Drive State College, PA 16801 www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurv e-nrhs cjb3@psu.edu __________________________________________ --=====================_630426==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" David Seidel, Historian, Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS wrote:

>
>Just to add to the discussion, as most of you may know, the DUQUESNE, car
>number 7511 is in Altoona, Pa.  It is now owned by the Horseshoe Curve
>Chapter, National Railway Historical Society (formerly Altoona Railroader's
>Memorial Museum). The car is presently at Union Tank Car Company in Altoona
>(former PRR passenger car paint shop works).  The car has been sandblasted
>and will be cosmetically restored to original condition for subsequent
>display at Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum at some future date.
>

Photos of the Duquesne and some of those from the restoration are posted on the Horseshoe Curve Chapter web site at www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/rstock.htm  .  Other cars owned by the chapter are posted there as well.




Horseshoe Curve Chapter,
National Railway Historical Society
PO Box 1361
Altoona, PA 16603
__________________________________________

Editor of "The Coal Bucket" and web page
Chris Behe,
955 Southgate Drive
State College, PA 16801

www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs

cjb3@psu.edu
__________________________________________

--=====================_630426==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:28:07 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] Elephant Style Many thanks to all who responded to my question. I think I got a good idea on what it was like to pass between locos. Some of the things people did daily are not always so obvious to those of us who have never seen these locos operate, so thanks again for a good discussion. Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:05:21 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Greetings: I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( Richard Wallis (Home Alone) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Umm no Rich I am here as well as Altoona is just a bit too far from Buffalo for me to travel right now. On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Richard Wallis wrote: >Greetings: > >I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I >guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > >Richard Wallis >(Home Alone) > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:53:08 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Greetings to Richard and the group, I'm always in Altoona :-). Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 11:05 AM 8/26/99 -0500, Richard Wallis wrote: >Greetings: > >I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I >guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > >Richard Wallis >(Home Alone) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:53:08 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Greetings to Richard and the group, I'm always in Altoona :-). Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 11:05 AM 8/26/99 -0500, Richard Wallis wrote: >Greetings: > >I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I >guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > >Richard Wallis >(Home Alone) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:53:08 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Greetings to Richard and the group, I'm always in Altoona :-). Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 11:05 AM 8/26/99 -0500, Richard Wallis wrote: >Greetings: > >I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I >guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > >Richard Wallis >(Home Alone) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:53:08 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Greetings to Richard and the group, I'm always in Altoona :-). Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 11:05 AM 8/26/99 -0500, Richard Wallis wrote: >Greetings: > >I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I >guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > >Richard Wallis >(Home Alone) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:53:08 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Greetings to Richard and the group, I'm always in Altoona :-). Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 11:05 AM 8/26/99 -0500, Richard Wallis wrote: >Greetings: > >I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I >guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > >Richard Wallis >(Home Alone) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:43:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Richard Wallis >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend >Date: Thu, Aug 26, 1999, 12:05 PM > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( Does this mean the dupes have subsided? 8-) I'm leaving for Altoona at 5 a.m. Friday. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cathatjim@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:45:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Hi I'm not in altoona either, a bit far to travel from New Orleans. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:20:53 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Aloha, I couldn't go either I am in Honolulu, Eric At 01:45 PM 8/26/1999 -0400, Cathatjim@aol.com wrote: >Hi >I'm not in altoona either, a bit far to travel from New Orleans. >Jim > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:55:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR - looking for Schlund Claus Schlund If you are still on PRR-Talk, please contact me offline. The e-mail address I have does not work. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:45:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona Thanks for all the get well messages to John. We won't be in Altoona either. I'll be playing nurse to John since his recent heart attacks but the surgery went well and we're all hoping for the best. Enjoy the convention for us and we will read all about it next week. Those of you who are homebound like we are just keep the mail going as usual. Dayna - Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cathatjim@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:41:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? This may have been asked before, but what engines were set up to run long hood foward on the pennsy. Jim I'm new at this ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:44:25 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend I get to stay home too, this weekend. I won't get to see much of the house, won't get to see many trains, I do get to take a pack of cub scouts to HBG for a baseball game. I could really use a steak this weekend too, I can almost taste the steak at Hoss's. Cos Richard Wallis wrote: > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Hello whre is everyone! Gize, Hello, Can't make it to the event either. Got plenty of things here to do to keep me busy. Getting back logged on paint jobs! Anyone ever try to tackle a Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Triplex paint job in O scale? Wow! Jerry, I have finished the BP20 A-B sharks. I have taken photos and will scan them and place them on my site next week or so. I will get in touch with you later about them.......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Hello whre is everyone! Gize, Hello, Can't make it to the event either. Got plenty of things here to do to keep me busy. Getting back logged on paint jobs! Anyone ever try to tackle a Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Triplex paint job in O scale? Wow! Jerry, I have finished the BP20 A-B sharks. I have taken photos and will scan them and place them on my site next week or so. I will get in touch with you later about them.......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:56:11 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend OK< I'll check in, too: I"m here at home on foggy Cape Cod. If you need something to do, go check out the new movie "The Sixth Sense," with Bruce Willis. Good movie, bit of a shocker, and nary a bit of bad language. Just saw it tonight... Steve Bartlett Richard Wallis wrote: > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:56:11 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend OK< I'll check in, too: I"m here at home on foggy Cape Cod. If you need something to do, go check out the new movie "The Sixth Sense," with Bruce Willis. Good movie, bit of a shocker, and nary a bit of bad language. Just saw it tonight... Steve Bartlett Richard Wallis wrote: > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:56:11 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend OK< I'll check in, too: I"m here at home on foggy Cape Cod. If you need something to do, go check out the new movie "The Sixth Sense," with Bruce Willis. Good movie, bit of a shocker, and nary a bit of bad language. Just saw it tonight... Steve Bartlett Richard Wallis wrote: > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:56:11 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend OK< I'll check in, too: I"m here at home on foggy Cape Cod. If you need something to do, go check out the new movie "The Sixth Sense," with Bruce Willis. Good movie, bit of a shocker, and nary a bit of bad language. Just saw it tonight... Steve Bartlett Richard Wallis wrote: > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:56:11 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend OK< I'll check in, too: I"m here at home on foggy Cape Cod. If you need something to do, go check out the new movie "The Sixth Sense," with Bruce Willis. Good movie, bit of a shocker, and nary a bit of bad language. Just saw it tonight... Steve Bartlett Richard Wallis wrote: > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:56:11 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend OK< I'll check in, too: I"m here at home on foggy Cape Cod. If you need something to do, go check out the new movie "The Sixth Sense," with Bruce Willis. Good movie, bit of a shocker, and nary a bit of bad language. Just saw it tonight... Steve Bartlett Richard Wallis wrote: > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:56:11 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend OK< I'll check in, too: I"m here at home on foggy Cape Cod. If you need something to do, go check out the new movie "The Sixth Sense," with Bruce Willis. Good movie, bit of a shocker, and nary a bit of bad language. Just saw it tonight... Steve Bartlett Richard Wallis wrote: > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:56:11 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend OK< I'll check in, too: I"m here at home on foggy Cape Cod. If you need something to do, go check out the new movie "The Sixth Sense," with Bruce Willis. Good movie, bit of a shocker, and nary a bit of bad language. Just saw it tonight... Steve Bartlett Richard Wallis wrote: > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:12:36 -0700 Geeze, Rich, If Altoona is too far from Buffalo, imagine how far it is from Tucson (the one in Arizona!) Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wallis To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 9:13 AM Subject: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend >Greetings: > >I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I >guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > >Richard Wallis >(Home Alone) > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:36:28 -0400 I too am staying home. I almost went but the initial absence of a comprehensive agenda by PRRT&HS made me say "Next Year"! In lieu of going to Altoona, I will be working on my layout in the basement. I am doing the Pennsylvania RR Fort Wayne line (from Ft. Wayne to Valparaiso, Indiana) and the South Bend Branch from Logansport to South Bend via Plymouth (on the Ft. Wayne Line) I started the layout in Mid-April. I have about 75% of the bench work up and should a portion of the track operating by the end of September. I think that the gize in Altoona will understand why I am not there! I have been planning on doing this layout for 15 years and finally, to quote a Dr. Frankenstien saying, "My creation will live!!" Ted "Igor" Andrews Carmel, Transylvania (Indiana) P.S.: I plan on having a web page up soon so you can see the progress. -----Original Message----- From: Wayne S. Betty [mailto:wsbcos@cris.com] Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:44 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend I get to stay home too, this weekend. I won't get to see much of the house, won't get to see many trains, I do get to take a pack of cub scouts to HBG for a baseball game. I could really use a steak this weekend too, I can almost taste the steak at Hoss's. Cos Richard Wallis wrote: > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] may become a member Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:13:33 -0400 Hey guys, I printed out a PRRT&HS form off their website and am thinking of joining. How do you like it? Are the publications nice? Any info would be appreciated. -Josh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon D. Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: TEST ONLY Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:49:15 -0400 TEST ONLY!! Anyone out there??? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] X-31 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:26:50 -0700 The September Mainline Modeler had a mention of a Bowser O scale X-31 and X-33 car. No mention of the release date yet. The issue ahd a few great shots of the new Precision Scale O scale B-6sb. It looks great except for the lagging clamps on the top of the boiler. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:12:10 -0400 Not far from the brick yard.....I bet! Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: Drew McGhee > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend > Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 12:53 PM > > Greetings to Richard and the group, > > I'm always in Altoona :-). > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > drm6@psu.edu > http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > At 11:05 AM 8/26/99 -0500, Richard Wallis wrote: > >Greetings: > > > >I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > >guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > > >Richard Wallis > >(Home Alone) > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:58:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone who isn't in Altoona this weekend From: James K Bunger Gang, I will be getting the troops ready for school on Monday (!) and will not be anywhere near Altoona. :-( Jerry, Not sure if you really want to know right now, but I received two copies of Drew McGhee's post and two from DWa9975062@aol.com Sorry. James On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:43:00 -0400 "Jerry Britton" writes: >>From: Richard Wallis >>To: prr-talk@dsop.com >>Subject: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend >>Date: Thu, Aug 26, 1999, 12:05 PM >> > >> I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? > I >> guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > >Does this mean the dupes have subsided? 8-) > >I'm leaving for Altoona at 5 a.m. Friday. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:28:04 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Business cars and Delmarva Hello Folks..... Since were on this business car string.... Car No. 100 was the Chesapeake. A Z-74 C ? with its original six wheel trucks. assigned to Baltimore during the 1950's and 1960's but i don't know which corporate officer. The car had buff gold lettering and stripes. I built a model of this car from one of Bachmann's cars. (hint: the windows are a little off.) I took a short trip back over to the former PRR Little Creek,Va. yard. As some know this was the southern terminus of the Delmarva line. Not much has changed since i was there last. Two of the car floats were there. One (the former C & O float?) was tied to the apron. There were a couple of folks working on the apron. The other old carfloat (one of the older former PRR floats ? .Not the Richardson.) had been grounded for some time and appears to be used as part of a pier. The three old hoppers (one in CR,one in PC and one still in PRR paint are still there.There are a few Tidewater chapter NRHS passenger cars there. NS had a lot of loaded hoppers sitting in the yard. Don't know the reason why. Eastern Shore RR still has the former Army FM engine sitting there too. Some of the freight yard has been sold off to another business (Cement company) But most of it is still there. The former PRR pullman "Haselton" is still sitting in the yard. Well gotta run... Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:24:30 -0400 So far the Cub Scouts and the Honolulu are the best excuses.... Mine is The York County 250th Birthday Bash, And we open the Rail / Trail from New Freedom to York, PA. There is a big ceremony in York for the Opening by the Parks Dept. The total Trail from Hunt Valley, Maryland to York City, PA. is about 43 miles. The New Freedom (ex-NCR, ex-PRR, ex-PC, ex-CR) station will have the exterior completely restored to it's 1940's look by the 15th of September. We are waiting on the custom made windows ( copies, off the originals ) to be delivered. Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. Riding the rails in a speeder car!!! ---------- > From: Richard Wallis > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend > Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 12:05 PM > > Greetings: > > I was just curious... is anyone there, or are all of you in Altoona? I > guess it's going to be a quiet four days :-( > > Richard Wallis > (Home Alone) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:04:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Altoona Weldon talk to you this pm gotta go to work. (o-guage???) Trainstuff llc makes cast resin shells and structures. The web site is www.trainstuffllc.com Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:51:13 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? >This may have been asked before, but what engines were set up to run long >hood foward on the pennsy. >Jim >I'm new at this Hi Jim, Well, lets see...almost all the 1st generation EMD and ALCO hood units...RS, SDs, Geeps, etc... Don't know about FM, but a quick check of Pennsy Power II will answer...BTW, the E44 was set up to run either way, and as my failing memory seems to say, the first units delivered had an "F" on the long hood. Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:03:23 -0400 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] duplicate messages Whatever is being done to stop duplicate messages doesn't seem to be working. Since yesterday, I got 2 copies of Bill Volkmer's "elephant style" message, 12 copies of Don Harper's "business car" message, and 19 copies of Drew McGhee's "hello." Elliot Fishbein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:10:59 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Sanborn Map news An article in the October issue of Model Railroader says that the current owners of the Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps have worked a deal with the Library of Congress to make the maps available on the web at memory.loc.gov The down side is that the project will extend "over the next several years". But with something on the order of a million maps to scan, that's not surprising. The up side is that these apparently will be in color. The microfilm copies available at Penn State and elsewhere are black and white. That loses some information, as the originals were color coded. Further, some colors photographed dark enough to obscure details. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: We're Back! Date: Sun, 29 Aug 99 18:13:00 -0400 From: Jerry The lists and "Keystone Crossings" web site are back online after a three day haitus. All mail sent to the lists should now spool through, as the e-mail server which receives list mail was up throughout. Last Thursday evening, our area lost power around 8 p.m. At 4 a.m., when I got up to leave for the PRRT&HS convention in Altoona, power was still out. (Ever shave by flashlight?) Anyway, the servers could not be restarted before I left, so my "not so computer savy" wife volunteered to "throw" the switch. She did so, and the router, DNS, and mail server came up fine, but the machine running the listserv, ftp, and web did not. I did not arrive back home until mid-afternoon today. Everything is now running, though some "catching up" is in order. Sorry to have not served your "addiction" for three days...now for a heavy dose! (Convention reports will follow.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:41:58 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Hello to whi-redux I'm glad we're all together even if we can't be in Altoona. I just wish now, after seeing it repeated so many times, that I had spelled "who" correctly. :-) Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:58:49 -0400 Jim: Without looking at any sources, I would say nearly all 1st generation hood units (GP-7, GP-9, SD-7,9, RS-1,2,3,11, RSD-7,12,15, as well as the Baldwins and FM's) There are probably exceptions but for the most part, they ran long hood forward. Now when you get to the 2nd generation units such as GP-30,35, SD-35,40,45, C424/5, C628/30, U-25/28/30, the short hood was forward. Hope this helps! Ted -----Original Message----- From: Cathatjim@aol.com [mailto:Cathatjim@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 5:42 PM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? This may have been asked before, but what engines were set up to run long hood foward on the pennsy. Jim I'm new at this ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:27:12 -0400 Just about all of them were set up long hood forward with the exception of the dual control RS-3s (used in commuter service) and possibly the few steam generator equipped GP-7s also used in commuter service, but without looking it up, I'm not sure about them) until the U-25bs and GP-30s came along. The first 7 U-25bs 2500-2507 were dual control and could run long hood forward with the engineer on the right side of the cab. In the Penn Central era, the U-23bs had a cab arrangement with the throttle stand in the center of the cab with a throttle handle sticking out of both sides so they could operate in either direction with the engineer on the right. This was an idea founded on the Southern Ry. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Cathatjim@aol.com To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:56 PM Subject: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? >This may have been asked before, but what engines were set up to run long >hood foward on the pennsy. >Jim >I'm new at this > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David William Gnuse Subject: [PRR] excursion information Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 03:22:08 -0400 All, I got my railfest info today asking which excursion I would like to take. Does anyone on the list know which excursion the prr-list group is using? David --------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Gnuse dgnuse@erols.com kickitup@railfan.net Fractal Page Railfan Page www.erols.com/dgnuse kickitup.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] USRA 2-8-2 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:19:45 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEF19B.0CE03E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I was in London today I saw a picture of a Pennsy class L2s in a = book called American 2-8-2's. The engine had a radial stay firebox with = a high mounted fire box and a central number plate. According to one of = the staff who is American the Pennsy sold at least one to a railway in = Georgia and it is now on dispaly in a park. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEF19B.0CE03E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While I was in London today I saw a = picture of a=20 Pennsy class L2s in a book called American 2-8-2's. The engine had a = radial stay=20 firebox with a high mounted fire box and a central number plate. = According to=20 one of the staff who is American the Pennsy sold at least one to a = railway in=20 Georgia and it is now on dispaly in a park.
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEF19B.0CE03E00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 19:31:01 -0400 Hello PRR Fans; We at Rail Classics are starting to assemble info on the PRR P-5, P-5a, P-5a modified and the P-5b Electrics, for a project in "HO" Scale Brass. Is there anybody out there who can help us fill some holes in our material ? EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:15:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Andrews, Ted wrote: > Jim: > > Without looking at any sources, I would say nearly all 1st generation hood > units (GP-7, GP-9, SD-7,9, RS-1,2,3,11, RSD-7,12,15, as well as the Baldwins > and FM's) There are probably exceptions but for the most part, they ran long > hood forward. Only one of the RSD7s and RSD15s were long hood forward, and I forget which now. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] RailFest excursion information Date: Sun, 29 Aug 99 20:35:32 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/28/99 3:22 AM, David William Gnuse (dgnuse@erols.com) wrote: > I got my railfest info today asking which excursion I would like to take. > Does anyone on the list know which excursion the prr-list group is using? As was the case last year, Carl Haslett will be organizing the "PRR-Talk" contingent, and Drew has once again volunteered to arrange dinner. (Thanks to both.) However, we're going to wait 3-4 weeks before we start organizing...unless Carl wants to dive in now. It's his call. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:11:01 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] P5 electrics question Rail Classics wrote: > > Hello PRR Fans; > > We at Rail Classics are starting to assemble info on the PRR P-5, P-5a, P-5a > modified and the P-5b Electrics, for a project in "HO" Scale Brass. Is there > anybody out there who can help us fill some holes in our material ? > > EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS. Greetings to Eddy and the list: Withers Publishing has in the near-final stages of production a softcover Marty Zak B&W pictorial along the lines of the Jack Hahn series (and it does include a few Jack Hahn photos) that covers GG1s, the various P5 types, the several E-oddball ignitrons, and the E44s. It should be out this fall. Dan Cupper managing editor, Withers Publishing dan@cwix.net Romans 12:1-2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:54:38 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] may become a member Thomas K. Trower wrote: > Hey guys, I printed out a PRRT&HS form off their website and am thinking of joining. How do you like it? Are the publications nice? Any info would be appreciated. > > -Josh > Tom: By all means, join. Great Publications, great history, great railroad, great people. Join. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Brick From Denholm? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 99 06:43:59 -0400 From: Jerry On the way home from the PRRT&HS convention in Altoona, I came by way of the Lewistown Junction station and then the back road through Denholm. Dave Wartell and I got out to take a look at the "remains". The first pier (railroad south) of the wharf still exists in its entirety against the bank. Then there's the road, then another bank down to track level. On this second bank there is the lower portion of a pier in extant...about four feet high. Looking across the former location of the wharf there are several concrete footers at grade level still visible. You can definitely tell where some of the other piers were. We did not venture down to grade level. Back to the four foot pier against the bank. The backside of this pier had been filled in with ballast after the pier was removed. In the pile of ballast I saw a piece of brick sticking out. I pulled it out, and it turned out to be an entire brick, free of mortar. It is heavier than most "household" bricks and is solid, rather than having the traditional hollow cores where mortar goes. One face was recessed slightly while the other protruded slightly. On the one face reads the brick manufacturer, "PAXTON". While this certainly could be a more modern brick that just ended up here, it also might be a part of the Denholm structure. Now, I don't think the coal wharf itself had any brick, but I seem to recall an outbuilding -- perhaps the supervisor's building -- right in this area, railroad east (south side) of the wharf. Was it brick? FWIW: There are still a lot of coal "nuggets" around amongst the ballast, for those who may want a Denholm souvenir! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:14:55 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Sanborn Map news >An article in the October issue of Model Railroader >says that the current owners of the Sanborn Fire >Insurance Maps have worked a deal with the Library of >Congress to make the maps available on the web at >memory.loc.gov..... The microfilm copies available at Penn State >and elsewhere are black and white. That loses some >information, as the originals were color coded. I just learned last week that Penn State has paper copies (i.e., color) of the Sanborns as well. These maps are in the Special Collections area, which just moved to the newly opened Paterno Library. I'm not sure of the extent of the collection, whether it includes all of Pa. or just a part of the state, or other states, or what. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:48:36 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend --On Thu, Aug 26, 1999 8:20 AM -1000 "Eric J. Minton" wrote: > Aloha, > I couldn't go either I am in Honolulu, Be sure and stop in at NS Headquarters and say "hi" for me. Or was that Timbuktu? Heh, heh. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:48:36 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Hello to everyone whi isn't in Altoona this weekend --On Thu, Aug 26, 1999 8:20 AM -1000 "Eric J. Minton" wrote: > Aloha, > I couldn't go either I am in Honolulu, Be sure and stop in at NS Headquarters and say "hi" for me. Or was that Timbuktu? Heh, heh. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:28:37 -0400 His right. The RSD-7s were long hood forward but the RSD-15s were short hood forward. No explanation as to why. They must have forgot to x in one of the boxes on the order blank! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 8:55 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? >On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Andrews, Ted wrote: > >> Jim: >> >> Without looking at any sources, I would say nearly all 1st generation hood >> units (GP-7, GP-9, SD-7,9, RS-1,2,3,11, RSD-7,12,15, as well as the Baldwins >> and FM's) There are probably exceptions but for the most part, they ran long >> hood forward. > >Only one of the RSD7s and RSD15s were long hood forward, and I forget >which now. > >-D > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:56:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Report - Product News From: "Jerry Britton" First of several convention reports... Not a lot of new stuff, but notable was the company that makes the PRR Skewed Stone Arch Bridge has their new Rockville Bridge out. Wow! They had a diorama set up with four trains on it. Look for 8-9' of it on Ken McCorry's expanded layout which now includes Harrisburg! Bethlehem Car Works has released Horse Cars and Scenery Cars. (They'll be listed soon on an eStore near you!) Miracle Castings had to cancel their trip at the last minute, so the ERIE-built B unit did NOT make it. Many listers who stopped by my booth were not aware that, in lieu of posting product news and specials to the "PRR-Talk" list that there is a special announcement list just for this purpose. It's called "MerchandiseAnnounce" and if you visit http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com there's a link to it in the header of the page. You'll get 1-3 posts per week about Pennsy products and special offers. It is NOT a discussion list. Thanks to all who visited my table and especially to those who purchased product. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 electrics question Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:44:47 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 29 Aug, Dan Cupper wrote: > Withers Publishing has in the near-final stages of production a > softcover Marty Zak B&W pictorial along the lines of the Jack Hahn > series (and it does include a few Jack Hahn photos) that covers GG1s, > the various P5 types, the several E-oddball ignitrons, and the E44s. It > should be out this fall. You *will* keep us posted, won't you? Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 electrics question Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:44:47 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 29 Aug, Dan Cupper wrote: > Withers Publishing has in the near-final stages of production a > softcover Marty Zak B&W pictorial along the lines of the Jack Hahn > series (and it does include a few Jack Hahn photos) that covers GG1s, > the various P5 types, the several E-oddball ignitrons, and the E44s. It > should be out this fall. You *will* keep us posted, won't you? Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:54:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention News - Future Conventions From: "Jerry Britton" Announced at the convention was that the next three conventions will be held at the Radison Penn Harris in Camp Hill, Pa. They are all the first weekend of May. I believe the dates are as follows: May 4-6, 2000 May 3-5, 2001 May 2-4, 2002 The society signed a three-year contract. The facility is first rate as far as set-up goes. The Northern Central Chapter is the host for 2000. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:52:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention News -- Cyber Chapter (LONG) From: "Jerry Britton" (This is being BCC'd to Walt Keely to insure clear communication to the board of my statements herein. The statements made below are summaries of many conversations I have had over the past few days. I cannot provide exact quotes in every instance as too much was said. The words are my understanding of what was said and I welcome corrections.) In a nutshell, the Cyber Chapter is "back-burnered" for now... Full explanation: According to the by-laws, approval of chapter status is at the discretion of the directors. It matters not how much member support, etc., there is. The directors alone make the decision. There are five directors, and I know that three are opposed. I do not know the opinion of the other two, though it obviously does not matter. It is my opinion that the opposition is due to these factors, and perhaps more: 1. Statements made by myself and others, over the years, that have created a distrust between the directors and the members of the "PRR-Talk" list. Much of this can be attributed to miscommunication and poor editing of forwards of e-mails. Nonetheless, the damage is done. 2. FUD. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. There are many in the society, the board included, that are not Internet users, or at least do not use it as a regular tool. This leads to ignorance as to what it can or cannot offer. 3. The society does not see the need for a Cyber Chapter. That is, the services that a cyber chapter might provide are not seen as being needed. Also, one of the potential focal points of the cyber chapter was to fund restoration projects. Walt Keely told me directly that this could become a liability issue for the society, as it has with some existing chapters. I am not going to name names here, as that would be unproductive. However, I was told that the directors had a very long meeting Thursday night. I "suspect" the proposed cyber chapter was a topic of conversation. On Friday morning I spoke with one director. Although not committing to support either way, everything this director did and said seemed to indicate he was opposed, mostly due to "FUD". He also expressed concern about how the society might handle a situation if a "second group wanted to form a cyber chapter." (No additional comment needed here!) Saturday evening, at the banquet, another director was very vocal about his opposition to the formation of the cyber chapter. Though the report is second hand, it came through a highly-revered member of the society and a personal friend of mine. The report is as good as gold. The director in question basically -- my words, not remembering the exact words used -- referred to us as a "militant group" preparing for the "coup de tat" (sp?)! On Sunday, I had a very long talk with Walt Keely. Walt and I agreed several weeks ago to discuss matters directly, whether good or bad, to avert miscommunication and rumors that have run rampant and unchecked over the past several months. I know that some out there have a problem with Mr. Keely and his way of doing things, but he has never directly crossed me. That being said, I appreciate the "open" relationship we now share. It takes a lot for someone to look you in the eye and tell you why they don't support you. For that, I give Walt credit...it's a heck of a lot better than the alternative: backstabbing. Walt did tell me he is opposed to the chapter, at least, for now. Part of the reason was the liability issue previously mentioned, part was the perceived lack of need (by the board) for the services the chapter would provide, and high on the list was the track record of miscommunication online. Having spent the time with Walt, well over an hour, I do not disagree with some of his points. I also want everyone to know that he did give me plenty of time to talk and he did LISTEN! He did encourage us (the potential chapter members) to continue to operate as an informal collection of national members. We can always return for sanctioning at a later time, once a track record is more established and better cooperation has been demonstrated. (BTW: Our seminar track was very well attended and I received many complements from off-line members; this was very good for our cause!) I asked Walt directly, because I do not want it to be deemed "competition" later, if we could organize, have dues, etc., akin to the Cincinnati Modelers Group. This group acts as a kind of auxiliary to the society and, as you all probably know, frequently participates at the national conventions. The thought here is, as such an organization, we could collect dues for restoration purposes and then have funds ready-to-go when an opportunity presents itself. There have been lost opportunities when the society did not have the funds or could not raise funds quickly enough. We could collect dues just for such a time and release them fairly quickly. We could also provide speakers and other services to the society and get a "by-line" for it. I encourage the charter members of the proposed chapter to start a thread on the "Cyber Chapter" list to discuss this. We need to do this, or totally mothball the entire concept for now. While a sanctioned Cyber Chapter is dead for now, I do want to make a statement about the attitudes of the national officers. Both myself and several other listers at the convention agreed that there "appears" to be much more openness and cooperation between the directors and the members. The financial report was absolutely wonderful and all questions were appropriately answered, records were on hand for anyone desiring to see them, etc. It was great! The "see me afterwards" answer, which creates distrust, was not given as in the past. (I will later post on the status of Lewistown Junction station and the archives.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:02:53 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention News - Future Conventions > Announced at the convention was that the next three conventions will be held > at the Radison Penn Harris in Camp Hill, Pa. ... > ... The society signed a three-year contract. The facility is first rate as > far as set-up goes. Well, at least that's fairly centrally located ... IF you're a resident Pennsylvanian. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:26:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Official List of the PRRT&HS (LONG) From: "Jerry Britton" (BCC'd to Walt Keely.) > I just received an email saying that the one-list was the official site of > the prrt&hs. Is this going to affect the cyber chapter at all? Folks, I have been inundated over the past few hours with questions about this claim that Mr. Strassner made on his "PRR-FAX" list: >From: "Bill Strassner" >I am pleased and proud to announce that The PRRT&HS Board has decided that >our PRR-FAX Chat List is to be the " Official List " of the PRRT&HS ! This >was decided after reviewing activities on several lists / areas. We will be >Fully supported by the Society, including monetarily, as a result. > >Next step is to meet with their web site folks, Bill and Steve and see what >the best way is to proceed from here. ( their personal commitments kept them >from the convention ). I can verify that Mr. Strassner has been officially appointed "moderator" of the recently revamped "Q&A" page on the official PRRT&HS web site. That's all I can verify. No mention was made at the national convention indicating that Mr. Strassner's talk list has been endorsed. In my promise to the society, I will not get involved in speculation. I have e-mailed the board directly on the issue and am waiting for a response. I had hoped to have a response before making a public statement at all, but I've already received over three dozen queries asking "what the heck is going on". The answer is, "I don't know yet". Many of you have expressed your dissatisfaction with this claim and/or endorsement. I appreciate your support. I personally do not think the society should endorse any list, but if they do, they certainly should have an open meeting to discuss what the online population of the society wants. One member of both lists offered the following response via PRR-FAX (I edited out one name, not my own): > Hi Bill, > > You do of course understand what you have done don't you? I really think > this is a bad idea, for several reasons, not the least of which are: > > 1) PRR-FAX should now be a PRRT&HS members only list. Please poll and > unsubscribe all non-members IMMEDIATELY. I will not support my money going > to pay for a list for non-members which is essentially a benefit for > members - nonmembers can go to the web site for information. Understand > that I don't think that this is good for the list, but as "official list" I > feel you must. > > 2) ALL PRRT&HS members must be allowed to join. It is my understanding > that due to your past differences with xxxxxx, that you denied him access > to PRR-FAX...understandable, but not allowable any longer. You must now > allow him to subscribe and post, and must refrain from anything that > appears to be a personal attack (which your past posts have appeared to be > to me, an outsider to this dispute) > > Please don't misunderstand - I like PRR-FAX, especially once that stupid > list-wars thread stopped, but I also enjoy the other lists I am on. I do > not feel as you do, that one is inherently superior to the other. I cannot > say the PRR-FAX ought to be the "official" list of the society, and I had > said as much to Bill Morlitz when you hinted as much earlier. I honestly > feel, because of the past differences between you and Jerry, that if the > PRRT&HS wanted an official list, a new list ought to be created, and that > the existing lists be given the chance to merge with it, without either you > or Jerry as listmeister, to avoid exactly the appearance of what has > happened (to me at least, and others I'm sure)...insider dealing and > political favoritism...I'm not saying that is what happened, but it has the > APPEARANCE that "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark". Now, I DO NOT want to start a flame war between lists. That is not the intention at all and it is not where I want to go with this. Hopefully the board will respond shortly with verification or denial of Mr. Strassner's claim. I will post the response immediately upon receipt. If they verify it, I will encourage you to contact the board directly to voice your concerns. If they deny it, then it would seem there would be a non-factual post in the permanent archive of PRR-FAX. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:32:32 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Among reasons cited by Jerry for a PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter being back-burnered were FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) about the internet, BOD hostility (paraphrased by Jerry as our being seen as a "'militant group' preparing for the 'coup de tat'", and "the track record of miscommunication online." All of these are nothing new in organizations heavily populated by a generation steeped in mistrust of computers and used to deferential youth. Additionally, it must be remembered that a large segment of America, in general, does not have home or work access to computers and many WITH such access lack internet connectivity. Not only is FUD a problem, but perceived "need" is a major factor, as well. In other words, a cyber chapter is disadvantaged by its dependence for "spreading the word" on the very medium that creates the damaging attitudes listed above. Perhaps one way to get positive attention would be to hold a seminar on PRR-related internet resources at the 2000 convention ... and the potential to be recognized by belonging to both your geographically local chapter AND the cyber chapter. How many PRRT&HS-member PRR-Talk subscribers are members of their local chapter? Mea Culpa! A second way to get attention would be to sponsor director candidates in opposition to those who openly oppose a cyber chapter. A cyber chapter need not even be the candidate's primary agenda; a simply favorable attitude would suffice. I'm sure the bylaws (were Mr. Keely or other officials to see fit to forward a copy to Jerry or any of we PRRT&HS members who are entitled to see same) provide a method for members at large to petition the nominations committee. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:55:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter From: "Jerry Britton" >From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu > > A second way to get attention would be to sponsor director candidates in > opposition to those who openly oppose a cyber chapter. A cyber chapter need > not even be the candidate's primary agenda; a simply favorable attitude > would suffice. I'm sure the bylaws (were Mr. Keely or other officials to > see fit to forward a copy to Jerry or any of we PRRT&HS members who are > entitled to see same) provide a method for members at large to petition the > nominations committee. While I shall not herein address the potential sponsorship of a board candidate, I will note that this is one of the "thought patterns" that is creating the sense of mistrust between "us" and "them" and led to the back-burnering of the Cyber Chapter. I did indeed -- finally -- receive a copy of the by-laws. You would be amazed! It seems that the board itself is the primary party responsible for nominating new directors to the board! Yes, the membership at large can do so, the process is something like this (I read it twice and this is from memory): 1. A number of members (10, I seem to recall) sign a petition to nominate the proposed director (or provide a letter of support). 2. The proposed director agree to serve. 3. A simple dossier of past society accomplishments by the candidate be submitted with the nomination by a deadline in September. 4. The chapter presidents (I think this is the right order) review the nominations at large and forward those deemed worthy to the board of directors. 5. The board of directors review the nominations accepted by the chapter presidents and add those they deed worthy to the proxy ballot. Candidate provides three sentences describing their background. 6. Ballots mailed to the membership. Again, this is a simple recollected overview of the process. Do not make firm statements based on the above. I can produce the exact process should it be desired. In a nutshell, however, the board can control who gets on the board! Therefore, if your platform is to overthrow the board, you'll never make it! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:25:26 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter --On Mon, Aug 30, 1999 1:55 PM -0400 "Jerry Britton" wrote: in response to my post, to wit: >> A second way to get attention would be to sponsor director candidates in >> opposition to those who openly oppose a cyber chapter. > that this is one of the "thought patterns" that is > creating the sense of mistrust between "us" and "them" and led to the > back-burnering of the Cyber Chapter ... > ... In a nutshell, however, the board can control who gets on the board! > Therefore, if your platform is to overthrow the board, you'll never make it! > The society's nomination process is a typical pattern in nonprofits ... and one which I must say seems to be a necessary way of preventing internal chaos. But my "platform" was not to "overthrow", but simply use the system to find qualified candidates with appeal to a broader segment of the society than the incumbents. Record of service seems most important, not future programs ... again typical of many non-profits ... especially those with little or no growth potential. It is possible, however, to find someone with credentials of service who, at the same time, sees the need to reach out electronically beyond the status quo. But, the first of my ideas ... that of conducting a positive public relations campaign rather than negative (and necessarily frustrating) political infighting would be my first choice of options. Requires patience, but inevitably gains positive response. Who among us is going to volunteer to wage political battles? Thought so. ;-) Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:48:15 -0400 John and the rest: You are correct the RSD-7s were short hood forward. No known reason. The only basic difference between the two (RSD-7 and 15) were the engine (RSD-7 had a 244, and the RSD-15s had a 251). The RSD-7s had steam generator and of course the obligatory water tank. The RSD-15s inexplicably had a small fuel tank with a gap where the water tank was on the RSD-7s. Hopefully Ken Douglas' new "All you ever wanted to know about Pennsy Diesels" book will answer these questions and a lot more. It will be (finally) published in the Spring of next year. It will be the definitive work on PRR diesels, trust me on that one. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: John Sheets To: Bill Volkmer Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? >Bill > >Check Stauffer's Pennsy Power: > >RS11 and RSD12 have the "F" on the loong end > >RSD15 and RSD7 have it on the short hood. > >Could that be since they were used largely as helpers? > >John > >Bill Volkmer wrote: > >> He is right. The RSD-7s were long hood forward but the RSD-15s were short >> hood forward. No explanation as to why. They must have forgot to x in one >> of the boxes on the order blank! >> >> Bill V. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Derrick J Brashear >> Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com >> Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 8:55 PM >> Subject: RE: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? >> >> >On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Andrews, Ted wrote: >> > >> >> Jim: >> >> >> >> Without looking at any sources, I would say nearly all 1st generation >> hood >> >> units (GP-7, GP-9, SD-7,9, RS-1,2,3,11, RSD-7,12,15, as well as the >> Baldwins >> >> and FM's) There are probably exceptions but for the most part, they ran >> long >> >> hood forward. >> > >> >Only one of the RSD7s and RSD15s were long hood forward, and I forget >> >which now. >> > >> >-D >> > >> > >> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:18:42 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] may become a member Greetings to Josh and the group, According to me :-), The _Keystone_ alone is worth twice what we pay in dues. Seriously, the _Keystone_ is first rate and well worth the dues. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 07:13 PM 8/27/99 -0400, Thomas K. Trower wrote: >Hey guys, I printed out a PRRT&HS form off their website and am thinking of joining. How do you like it? Are the publications nice? Any info would be appreciated. > >-Josh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:33:27 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] may become a member --==========00032935========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Mon, Aug 30, 1999 3:18 PM -0400 "Drew McGhee" wrote: > According to me :-), The _Keystone_ alone is worth twice what we pay in > dues. That's still less than the used pubs. dealers think it's worth ;-) Vagel --==========00032935========== Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Courier--On Mon, Aug 30, = 1999 3:18 PM -0400 "Drew McGhee" < wrote: > According to me :-), The _Keystone_ alone is worth twice what we pay in > dues. That's still less than the used pubs. dealers think it's worth ;-) Vagel --==========00032935==========-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brick From Denholm? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:43:10 -0400 Jerry wrote: >On the way home from the PRRT&HS convention in Altoona, I came by way of >the Lewistown Junction station and then the back road through Denholm. >Dave Wartell and I got out to take a look at the "remains". > >The first pier (railroad south) of the wharf still exists in its entirety >against the bank. Then there's the road, then another bank down to track >level. On this second bank there is the lower portion of a pier in >extant...about four feet high. Looking across the former location of the >wharf there are several concrete footers at grade level still visible. >You can definitely tell where some of the other piers were. We did not >venture down to grade level. > >Back to the four foot pier against the bank. The backside of this pier >had been filled in with ballast after the pier was removed. In the pile >of ballast I saw a piece of brick sticking out. I pulled it out, and it >turned out to be an entire brick, free of mortar. It is heavier than most >"household" bricks and is solid, rather than having the traditional >hollow cores where mortar goes. One face was recessed slightly while the >other protruded slightly. On the one face reads the brick manufacturer, >"PAXTON". > >While this certainly could be a more modern brick that just ended up >here, it also might be a part of the Denholm structure. Now, I don't >think the coal wharf itself had any brick, but I seem to recall an >outbuilding -- perhaps the supervisor's building -- right in this area, >railroad east (south side) of the wharf. Was it brick? Jerry, Sounds like we took the same route. I also traveled from Lewistown Junction to Harrisburg via RT. 333 to look for Denholm remains. Saw basically the same things that you described. There are very limited parking opportunities along this stretch of road and I had to make use of one of the stone roads down to the right of way to safely turn around (I would never dream of trespassing on NS property). About 1/2 way down the gravel road I came across a portion paved with bricks leading me to believe it was once a more permanent drive. Perhaps your brick is a paving brick rather than a structure brick. BTW, did you notice the massive stone remains about a mile or two west of the Denholm pier? The road is quite a bit above the right- of- way at this point, but I saw what appears to be a very large cistern and a stone tower-like structure along side. I am wondering if these are remains of the Hawstone water trough and treatment facility. Anybody know? The other unusual thing I saw was at the sawmill another mile or two further west. The stone retaining wall along the south side of the road had what appeared to be large-section concrete bridge supports that at one time extended over the area now used by the road. They looked to me like they had been cut off flush with the stone wall at a later date to make room for the current road. Anybody else see this? Spent a few minutes photographing trains on the hill across from Mifflin station then back onto the main roads. What a great day! Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:58:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Brick From Denholm? From: "Jerry Britton" >From: "jbreon" >To: "Jerry" , "PRR-Talk" >Subject: Re: [PRR] Brick From Denholm? >Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999, 3:43 PM > > BTW, did you notice the massive stone remains about a mile or two west > of the Denholm pier? The road is quite a bit above the right- of- way at > this point, but I saw what appears to be a very large cistern and a stone > tower-like structure along side. I am wondering if these are remains of the > Hawstone water trough and treatment facility. Anybody know? Yes, I saw this and it blew my mind! I've taken this road as a "traffic cut" on the way home from Penn State football games many, many times over the past two decades. I have never noticed those ruins before! I was travelling about 70 mph at the time, with Dave Wartel a few car lengths behind me. I damned near went off the road! There did indeed appear to be a very large cistern. I'd guestimate it to be about 40' across. Perhaps more. It was stone, with no roof remaining. The rectangular building looked much larger than a tower, however. It was also stone, and I'd place it at 30' by 50' or so. Again, I was travelling pretty fast. Since we know Denholm supplied coal and water, I think it unlikely that there was a water stop here. It "may" have been where the railroad collected the water -- coming off the mountain -- and then piped it 2-3 miles east, but that is speculation. It certainly would be the right size for that purpose, but then I don't know what the rectangular building would be. Perhaps a CT1000 would shed some light. It's about half way between Denholm and Lewistown Junction. If there's any business along that route -- distillery, ice cream, brewery, etc. -- then that is likely it. If there is no listing at all, it may very well be a cistern for Denholm as that would not require rail service on location. The site is about 1 mile west of the "summit" of the road, if anyone wants to try to find it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:56:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE: Convention News >Well, at least that's fairly centrally located .. Altoona is centrally located in PA, too, however, Camp Hill is a lot better for me. Did anyone get the G27 gon from Sunshine Models? How does it look? What's the price? Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brick From Denholm? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:59:28 -0400 > >There did indeed appear to be a very large cistern. I'd guestimate it to be >about 40' across. Perhaps more. It was stone, with no roof remaining. > >The rectangular building looked much larger than a tower, however. It was >also stone, and I'd place it at 30' by 50' or so. Again, I was travelling >pretty fast. By tower, I meant water treatment tower, not signal or water discharge. Didn't the PRR have a method of filtering and adjusting the pH of water by running it through a containment tower filled with some sort of solid material? There also appeared to be a cast "sign" of some kind mounted on top facing the tracks. Thought about hiking down there, but then remembered that rattlesnakes probably have the same idea! > >Since we know Denholm supplied coal and water, I think it unlikely that >there was a water stop here. I may be wrong, but I didn't think that the Limiteds stopped at Denholm. Wouldn't they merely take water on the fly? > >Perhaps a CT1000 would shed some light. It's about half way between Denholm >and Lewistown Junction. If there's any business along that route -- >distillery, ice cream, brewery, etc. -- then that is likely it. If there is >no listing at all, it may very well be a cistern for Denholm as that would >not require rail service on location. Good idea. I'll check later tonight. There's got to be somebody out there that knows what this stuff is/was. C'mon list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:39:28 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? Hello Bill and the list, Who's going to publish this new PRR Diesel book? Add me to the list eagerly awaiting a copy! Doug Bill Volkmer wrote: > John and the rest: > > You are correct the RSD-7s were short hood forward. No known reason. The > only basic difference between the two (RSD-7 and 15) were the engine (RSD-7 > had a 244, and the RSD-15s had a 251). The RSD-7s had steam generator and > of course the obligatory water tank. The RSD-15s inexplicably had a small > fuel tank with a gap where the water tank was on the RSD-7s. > > Hopefully Ken Douglas' new "All you ever wanted to know about Pennsy > Diesels" book will answer these questions and a lot more. It will be > (finally) published in the Spring of next year. > > It will be the definitive work on PRR diesels, trust me on that one. > > Bill V. > -----Original Message----- > From: John Sheets > To: Bill Volkmer > Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 12:27 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? > > >Bill > > > >Check Stauffer's Pennsy Power: > > > >RS11 and RSD12 have the "F" on the loong end > > > >RSD15 and RSD7 have it on the short hood. > > > >Could that be since they were used largely as helpers? > > > >John > > > >Bill Volkmer wrote: > > > >> He is right. The RSD-7s were long hood forward but the RSD-15s were > short > >> hood forward. No explanation as to why. They must have forgot to x in > one > >> of the boxes on the order blank! > >> > >> Bill V. > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Derrick J Brashear > >> Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > >> Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 8:55 PM > >> Subject: RE: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? > >> > >> >On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Andrews, Ted wrote: > >> > > >> >> Jim: > >> >> > >> >> Without looking at any sources, I would say nearly all 1st generation > >> hood > >> >> units (GP-7, GP-9, SD-7,9, RS-1,2,3,11, RSD-7,12,15, as well as the > >> Baldwins > >> >> and FM's) There are probably exceptions but for the most part, they > ran > >> long > >> >> hood forward. > >> > > >> >Only one of the RSD7s and RSD15s were long hood forward, and I forget > >> >which now. > >> > > >> >-D > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >> > > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Brick From Denholm? Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:56:21 -0500 Hi, all, >While this certainly could be a more modern brick that just ended up >here, it also might be a part of the Denholm structure. Now, I don't >think the coal wharf itself had any brick, but I seem to recall an >outbuilding -- perhaps the supervisor's building -- right in this area, >railroad east (south side) of the wharf. Was it brick? I don't think there were any brick-walled structures on this side of the wharf BUT the building or two over here may have had brick foundations. Also, the access to the underground passages used to work with the under-the-track ash removal system appear to have been brick lined. When I was at Denholm in late March, I did cross to the rr north side and saw one of the entrances to these underground passages, filled with scrap concrete to prevent people like me from exploring. Such an entrance also existed on the south side of the tracks. I too "liberated" a brick and it did appear to be heavier than brick used in residential walls. > >FWIW: There are still a lot of coal "nuggets" around amongst the ballast, >for those who may want a Denholm souvenir! It's really quite remarkable that a good forty years after the wharf ceased to function that coal still remains. However, the large powerhouse, watertanks, and sandtower on the north side are quite thoroughly gone. If I had not known what the place looked like in its heyday, I would hardly have known any of these buildings existed. For my next visit, I hope to hike the loop track on the south side. After that, it's time to look for the remains of the Vincent Lumber Co. operation, which was on the south side of the tracks west of the coal wharf. A trail south along the mountain is named the Vincent Lumber trail. BTW Vincent was a n.g. logger that didn't finish until the early 1930's - quite late by central logging rr standards. Also, I think a couple of the houses along the road just west of the pier Jerry mentions were PRR company houses. They show up as being under construction in a couple of PRR company photos of the coal wharf almost itself completed. If this sort of bushwhacking appeals to you, next stop should be west of Denholm at Hawstone, where there was a trackpan facility with a powerhouse virtually identical to the one at Denholm. Just west of it, on the south side of the tracks, was a large refractory brick plant, with a n.g. tramway running on the mountain to gather ganister. So many great PRR spots...and so little time! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:01:35 -0400 From: Michael Scott Johnson Subject: [PRR] RE: Brick from Denholm? Greetings to the list: Jerry Breon wrote: > I saw what appears to be a very large cistern and a stone tower-like >structure along side. Mike Bezilla and I have visited this location two or three times and we feel certain that this cistern and tower provided water storage and treatment for the Hawstone track pans. If you continue down the hill to the tracks you'll find yourself at CP Hawstone. The pans and the pumping station are, of course, long gone but if you look closely along the river side of the tracks you'll see clues (a few pieces of broken water pipe, lots of cut stone scattered about) that suggest the location of the pumping station. > There also appeared to be a cast "sign" of some kind mounted on top >facing the tracks. This is pure speculation on my part: I wonder if this "sign" might been a gauge of some sort that displayed the water level in the cistern to the operators of the pumping station? BTW, CP Hawstone is a very interesting location for train watching. The weigh-in-motion scale track that passes through Denholm joins the WB main (track 2) at this location. WB moves are controlled by position-light signals mounted on a signal bridge. Immediately west of the bridge is a crossover from track 2 to track 1, and app. 1/8 mile further west there are position lights on masts that control EB moves. Scott Scott Johnson 820 N. University Drive, Suite A University Park, PA. 16802 814-863-2044 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:42:44 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] K4s 1361 Restoration web site Hello list, Those of you viewing my previous posts will likely know my favorite piece of motive power is a K4s. I've found a web site on 1361's restoration at Steamtown that has current information (as of 5 August, 1999). Unlike Trott's otherwise excellent "Locomotive Report," this appears to be updated on a regular basis. The address is: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/k4.htm The site includes numerous shots of the engine undergoing restoration at Steamtown; the lighting was better than when I took my pictures of the 1361 in 1998; the photos are quite clear. There is a chance 1361 will be in steam by 4 July 2000. I, for one, am excited! Enjoy! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:03:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter In a message dated 08/30/1999 5:32:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: > A second way to get attention would be to sponsor director candidates in > opposition to those who openly oppose a cyber chapter. A cyber chapter need > not even be the candidate's primary agenda; a simply favorable attitude > would suffice. I'm sure the bylaws (were Mr. Keely or other officials to > see fit to forward a copy to Jerry or any of we PRRT&HS members who are > entitled to see same) provide a method for members at large to petition the > nominations committee. > This would be extremely difficult as the first rerquirement for a Director is to be a past president of a chapter. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:06:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? In a message dated 08/30/1999 6:14:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: > You are correct the RSD-7s were short hood forward. No known reason. The > only basic difference between the two (RSD-7 and 15) were the engine (RSD-7 > had a 244, and the RSD-15s had a 251). The RSD-7s had steam generator and > of course the obligatory water tank. The RSD-15s inexplicably had a small > fuel tank with a gap where the water tank was on the RSD-7s. > The RSD-7 also were equipped with steam generators and were class APS24ms (Alco passenger switcher 2400 hp modified body steam generator) Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Date: Tue, 31 Aug 99 06:14:54 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/30/99 10:03 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >In a message dated 08/30/1999 5:32:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: > >> A second way to get attention would be to sponsor director candidates in >> opposition to those who openly oppose a cyber chapter. A cyber chapter >need >> not even be the candidate's primary agenda; a simply favorable attitude >> would suffice. I'm sure the bylaws (were Mr. Keely or other officials to >> see fit to forward a copy to Jerry or any of we PRRT&HS members who are >> entitled to see same) provide a method for members at large to petition the >> nominations committee. >> >This would be extremely difficult as the first rerquirement for a Director >is >to be a past president of a chapter. I will check the by-laws, but I do not believe the above is true. The candidate must submit a "resume" of their past support of the society. Being a chapter president would certainly be a great example. But I do not think it is required. I will check. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:22:24 EDT Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Brick From Denholm? In a message dated 8/30/99 5:59:57 PM Central Daylight Time, george.pierson@trnty.edu writes: << I don't think there were any brick-walled structures on this side of the wharf BUT the building or two over here may have had brick foundations. Also, the access to the underground passages used to work with the under-the-track ash removal system appear to have been brick lined. >> Not being familiar with either Denholm except by pictures or your brick except by description - it is possible that the ash pit was lined with fire brick as used in furnaces to prevent the possibility of embers from the ashes starting fires or to contain the heat. Fire brick of that era would have been very heavy, probably a white to creamy yellow in color and very dense compared to the brick used for architectural purposes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:22:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? rsd-7 =aps24ms does m = modified body or mu capable? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:29:15 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Business cars and Delmarva The coal goes north on the ESHR (Eastern Shore Railroad, the Delmarva Division/NYP&NRR running from Little Creek to Pocomoke City, MD) almost daily, empties returning south. I assume it goes via CONRAIL/NS to a power plant somewhere in Delaware but don't know that for sure. There is a plant in Vienna, MD on the Nanticoke River that burns oil brought by barge and one at Indian River, DE that I don't know anything about. [CONECTIV, the no-longer-local power company's web site isn't very friendly or helpful in regards to info.] The Vienna plant used to have rail service--the tracks are visible under the Rte. 50 bridge going east towards ?? Hurlock, MD (and west towards the power plant.) This branch became part of the Maryland & Delaware shortline but is now abandoned. Such are the former glories of Eastern Shore Railroading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:28:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: ***An Apology, An Explanation, An Olive Branch... From: "Jerry Britton" NOTE TO PRR-TALK FOLKS: Mr. Strassner made this post to his PRR-FAX today, with a copy to me. Herein is my response and, since the original did not post to "PRR-Talk", I am including it in its entirety, even where I am not commenting. I am still awaiting Walt Keely's official response from the society. ---------- Bill: >From: "Bill Strassner" >To: "@onelist.com PRR" >Cc: "Steve Agostini" , "Bill Morlitz" , "Walter Keely" , "Jerry Britton" >Subject: ***An Apology, An Explanation, An Olive Branch... >Date: Tue, Aug 31, 1999, 9:39 AM > > ***To All PRR FAX-Folks= > > I would like to apologize publicly and attempt to "clear the air" of any > miss-conceptions, rumors, etc.= > > #1. Returning from a great PRR Convention, I was a bit over enthusiastic > about the decision of the PRRT&H Society Board of Directors in selecting Our > PRR-FAX Group to assist them in the formation of a responsive and accurate > PRR " Q & A " List. Early last week many of us learned of your "proposal" to the operators of the PRRT&HS web site to volunteer to take over and moderate/manage the content of the "Information Exchange" (Q&A) page on that site. Personally, I don't have a problem with that. Others do, but it is up to them to fight that fight. The Q&A page was in need of help and you are willing to put time into it. So be it. What was contrary to this appointment is the claim made that PRR-FAX was somehow sanction/endorsed by the society as an "official list" of the society. While the same moderators may be principals of both operations, I do not think that qualifies as a "blanket endorsement" that the second (or other) operations are all equally endorsed/sanctioned. (If 100% of the stockholders are common to two different corporations, does that mean that both corporations are really one? Of course not!) I am involved in my own public relations rebuilding program, following some errant remarks I made a few weeks ago. It is not my intention to fight this battle or start a "list war". However, as listmaster of "PRR-Talk", I am being asked by many subscribers to provide an explanation. To that end, I have been in communication with the society to try to find the truth. The opinion of many on the "PRR-Talk" list is that if any list should be endorsed/sanctioned by the society, that it should operate under the prrths.com name and should NOT be a mere renaming/relocation of either of the two predominant PRR lists that exist today. It has been voiced in numerous e-mails to me that an entirely new list should be created...if that is the type of forum desired by the society. I do not believe it is. My opinion is that IF the society comes out of this and does endorse your list as an "official" list, that the next convention will have quite a long (and loud) business meeting as members voice their concern and disappointment. With no disrespect intended to the board, they do not seem to understand all of the inner workings of the Internet (varying types of services, etc.) and have gotten themselves into a jam that they don't understand. The bottom line is, they should not have committed to something they don't understand AND should not have made a commitment privately without allowing input from those who will make use of the service. They especially should not have made such a decision based only on input from those who perhaps stood to gain. All input should have been impartial. It was far from that. And the maintainers of the prrths.com site weren't even there! > > #2. Upon my return, I wished to share the good news with all PRR-FAX > Members, as credit goes to all. I prematurely made the announcement Sunday > evening and soon thereafter regretted having done so. There are still a > great many details to be worked out, such as: What is the best venue = The > Society's present Q & A list or the current and no cost Onelist Server > Facility ? And many more concerns. Discussions are to be held with all > involved parties to seek out the best medium for serving Our Membership. > > #3. The post from Dr. Bruce Smith, while asking excellent questions of > concern to many, did not pertain to the PRR and should not have been allowed > onto the PRR-FAX List. > Questions and comments ( always welcome ) of an administrative manner > should - and will in the future - be handled by the list administrators and > moderators in the proper off-list forum. > > #4. These posts resulted in a concern from the Society, as expressed in the > following forwarded message from Walter Keely = ( reprinted in whole with > author's permission ) = >> >> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 5:35 PM >> Subject: What happened? >> >> >> Bill, >> As I mentioned to you after the meeting, the Board was willing to pay the >> cost of a Q&A list( $300/ yr.) The entire purpose was to provide a VERY >> timely and accurate response to members questions regarding PRR info >> only. >> It was not intended to provide a chat room atmosphere nor a political > forum for >> ANYONE!!! Due to the professional moderators and first hand PRR >> experience >> that your moderator list has available for this this type effort, your >> group/list was chosen. It is best at this time that you discuss the needs >> and >> direction of the Society"s Q&A effort with the President of the Society, >> Dick >> Adams, before any more statements are made. I will call you later with >> his >> number. >> >> Walt Keely >> > #5. As a constructive result, immediate corrective actions by our PRR-FAX > Moderators include: > > A. ONLY PRR-relevant posts will go to the PRR-FAX List, with the exception > of important General Notices, such as List Address Changes, etc. > B. Improper or off-topic posts will not be posted, but instead will be > politely returned to the sender with an explanation and / or direction for > further discussion. > C. All moderators - including myself - will have their response to an > improper or Off-Topic potential post 'checked' by the other moderators > before a response is sent. > D. Questions and comments about any other matter, such as administrative, > etc. should be sent directly to me, or to any moderator as listed. They will > be promptly forwarded to and discussed amongst all moderators and / or the > Society Liaison. A timely response will then be issued. > > Again, and especially for new members, a brief review = > The PRR-FAX list was formed recently to accurately and rapidly exchange > technical information about the PRR amongst all. The PRR-FAX List requires > verifications of posted data, in order to have a valuable and verified > Factual Archive, especially for our "Future PRR Fans". Taking into consideration your "formalness" and "professionalism", perhaps it would be in order to replace the description of your list on OneList. Taking half a dozen "cheap shots" at "PRR-Talk" certainly does not portray PRR-FAX in the same light that you probably portrayed it to the society. > > After some growing pains, the List began performing nicely and covered many > topics in a friendly and factual manner. One of our strengths is our > moderation. So far, Not One Word of any post has been changed, ever. What > Our Moderators have done is = > > A. Prevent embarrassments of the sender ( like empty messages ), etc.; In all but a few cases, the "PRR-Talk" listserv screens these out automatically. > > B. Edit out the attached original message ( please post your thoughts only, > without tagging the original post along, Thanks ! ); As you gain more subscribers, you will learn that this can become a problem. Folks often delete messages after they read them and then have nothing to refer back to when a later post is made. One of the strengths of "PRR-Talk" is that one can search the archive of over 10,000 messages by subject, keywords, etc., and retrieve old messages as needed. > > C. Categorize the post Subject Line so that they can be readily retieved > from our archives; and facilitate the fast and friendly flow of FAX. An admirable goal. I am sure it will work for a while, but you will probably be challenged as subject matter widens and the subscriber base increases. > > Our posts show up rapidly on Our List in from one minute to a couple of > hours, a speed record that I will happily compare with any list. Dedicated > and sacrificing people and multiple moderators assures this frequent flow. > > Later on, others in the Society noticed us, and mentioned that the Society's > Q & A Facility needed assistance to become a real benefit for all of the > PRRT&HS Members. > > I volunteered our Group's abilities, knowledge and resources in order to > improve the exchange of accurate information amongst all Society Members. > After the Board reviewed our List activities, verification methods and the > backgrounds and RR experiences of all of our moderators, we were selected to > assist them in their goal of improving communications for all Members. Previously addressed. The society's web page needed help. Agreed. > > Working with the Society Directors and Web-Site folks, we will soon > determine the future course of Our List. One option is to have our PRR-FAX > become the "designated PRR Society Q & A List" and still remain with the > Onelist Server. So far, Onelist has provided a very speedy and excellent > vehicle for this venture. The current cost is zero, a plus to the Society. > And there are no additional expected expenses at this time. > > Another option is to move the PRR-FAX activities over to the Society > Web-site " Q & A ", if those facilities will perform our needed functions. I > understand that the site is already funded, so again, there would be no > additional costs involved to the membership. The Site Manager had mentioned > a possible slight incremental future cost due to increased "traffic > bandwidth". I support the latter. Others can form their own opinions. > > A third, but a much less likely option, is another server. Mention has been > made on other lists about potential spam problems with Onelist. None have > been reported by any of the 160 subscribers over the past six months of our > pleasant Onelist > use. With all of these options in mind, a Maximum Total Expense of $ 300. > was allowed for, just in case. Our Goal is to have No Costs to the Society > at all, which is achievable. > > As our PRR-FAX List has been Free of Charge and Open to All, Members and > public alike, I see no need to restrict admission in any form. This has been > our policy from Day One of PRR-FAX, and also the policy of the Society's > Web-site. With no added expenses, the List and Web-site are actually great > tools to attract potential new Members for our Society, another added > benefit. > > As the PRR-FAX List deals primarily with the technical / prototype matters > of the PRR, there is always room for additional PRR Lists. As there are > lists primarily for modelers, there could also be lists / storage areas > added for "Oral Histories", "Resource Documents and Sources", > "Photographs", "How I Remember The Pennsy", etc. As a four-year veteran of running lists, I can tell you that, while trying to separate subjects as above, there will always be cross-posts. That inevitably results in both (or more) lists not receiving all relevant responses. In the end, I feel that one general purpose list is better. > > The greater the availability of accurate information and sharing, the > greater the benefits to all Society Members in their respective areas of > interest. A true "Win-Win" situation. > > With all of this said, I think it is appropriate at this time for me to > reach over to "PRR-Society-Brother" and PRR-Talk Listmeister Jerry Britton, > and I would be more than happy if in the future he could possibly help and > assist All Members in this overall > venture by possibly focusing on the PRR Modeling arena, as his group > specializes and excels in this realm. Bill, while I appreciate the offer to have "PRR-Talk" contain itself to modeling issues, I must decline your offer. While "PRR-Talk" does indeed handle a lot of modeling-related traffic, much of it often asks for specific information about the prototype so that a model may be accurate. While PRR-FAX may take the highly-technical "everything is referenced" approach, "PRR-Talk" will remain a general topic list and also allow conjecture and speculation. I have asked on numerous times that subscribers indicate fact vs. speculation and that has improved. Consider this question once posed on "PRR-Talk": "How did the 'big engine' get to the New York World's Fair?" We never did arrive at an answer, and you were probably a subscriber at the time. We speculated. There were photos at Denholm, but it was believed the radius at Rockville was too sharp. At least we talked about it. How would you have handled this on PRR-FAX? > > This is just a thought for consideration, as we all attempt to work out the > details to make all PRR Sites as compatible and as valuable for All Members, > by minimizing Overlap. > > This will be one of the very few Non-Technical, Administrative Type Posts > that is anticipated to appear on PRR-FAX! Of course, any General Notices > about necessary details, such as = a change of location, address, operation > and / or server will be posted here first. > > Heartfelt Thanks To All, and as I said before, it is time to Open All of Our > Throttles To Run 8, and Move Forward, as we can All Run Together Side By > Side on Our Great Broad Way. > > Respectfully submitted, and Thanks to So Many, Bill Strassner*** > In closing, Bill, I have no intent or desire to engage in a list war. Hopefully this post, and one to follow from Walt Keely, will end my involvement in the subject, having supplied "the story" from all parties involved. Individual subscribers, many PRRT&HS members, may opt to comment openly or perhaps write to the board of directors to the society, who must answer their concerns over these issues. Thank you for choosing to e-mail me directly and amiably. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:37:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Report -- "PRR-Talk" Track From: "Jerry Britton" The "PRR-Talk" Track of seminars at the convention was a huge success... Walt Keely offered (and did) include our flyer in the registration packet, so many "off-line" members attended as well. Thanks, Walt! Joe Gotaskie led off with a superb talk on modeling X-29's. We had seats for around 70 people and it was a standing room only crowd! Following Joe's talk, many folks headed back to the hotel to see the Cincinnati Modelers Club's talk on modeling PRR trains. Those that attended said it was decent, but there were no handouts. They did have passenger trains on display in the model room and they were indeed a sight to behold. The above being the case, a smaller crowd of around 30 were on hand for Vagel's talk on "Coke Fired, Railroad Connected, Iron Blast Furnaces of the Juniata Region". By the end of the talk, the crowd had grown to around 45 and there was sufficient Q&A interest to cause the session to extend about an extra half hour! Rick Tipton rounded out the afternoon with a slide show on Lines West...Dayton to be precise. The crowd maintained in the 45-55 range throughout. It was a great event and I'd like to thank our three speakers, Peter Barton of the museum for providing space, and Brad Bower for the brainstorm to create the event in the first place! It was then off to Hoss's for dinner. We had about 35 in attendence. Low point was checking out when we were all in line at once and there were two cashiers that didn't know how to operate the register! Thanks to Drew McGhee for once again taking care of the Hoss's arrangements! An additional note: It was learned on Friday that Peter Barton, director of the museum, has given his notice after ten years at the museum. Without a doubt, his stunning achievement was the restoration of the Master Mechanics Building and all of the new displays within. Peter will remain in Altoona through the fall, but is taking a position with a firm out of Boston that specializes in displays. Peter likely will be travelling the world in his new career. Good luck, Peter, and thank you for all of your support over the years! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:32:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] PENNSY BAGGAGE CARS FOLKS, I just noticed in October MR that Bethlehem Car Works is advertising the two promised PRR Bagg's : the B70A 'theatrical scenery express car" and the B74B "horse express" car.. As they're priced at $59.95 list they apparently have the brass sides that have been very well done on earlier offerings. As they are essentially 70' cars, i don't know if they come with the milled Rivorossi car or not, or if BCW parts are used for the floor , ends and roof. Certainly worth a look. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PENNSY BAGGAGE CARS Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:04:41 -0400 Saw a built up version at the convention. Very nice. The dealer sold out both the scenery and horse car versions. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:27:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? In a message dated 08/31/1999 4:36:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RBurg74133@aol.com writes: > rsd-7 =aps24ms does m = modified body or mu capable? > Opps. My mistake = mu equipped. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:41:27 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] M1 event at PRRT&HS Convention Hello list, As one of the unfortunates unable to attend the convention, can anyone fill me in on the M1 talk? Thanks in advance! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:22:57 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Convention Greetings to the list, I went to my first PRRT&HS Convention over the weekend. Had a wonderful time. Spent alot of time and some money in the vendor room, met with some old friends and met some new ones. I sat at the Banquet sat night with 3 gentlemen from England. Ivan Frantz had helped them with their travel arrangements and was driving them around. He was also taking them to Lancaster with him to go to Strasburg and of course the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum. I thought that this was great. It really showed that the PRR has fans worldwide and that Chapter members (even Board Members) are more than willing to lend a helping hand to a fellow Pennsy fan. Andy Mulhollen Altoona __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PDB1854@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:57:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Altoona Jerry and the Group, For the last several years I have sat and read virtually every posting to this list without ever responding directly to the myriad of topics discussed over that time. I guess I fit the textbook definition of a "lurker." I read quietly without commenting mainly to let those who know far more than I ever will about the beloved PRR do the talking. And that's saying something for a guy who grew-up wearing the gray of the New York Central, born and raised on the Water Level Route in Hyde Park, NY. Heck, it took me a couple of years when I moved to Altoona to stop calling them "cabooses." I grew to love this new tuscan railroad and more than anything, the people of the Pennsy. So much so that I committed the last decade of my life to building three memorials to the workers of the PRR and their successors. First, it was the pain of designing and building the Horseshoe Curve facilities -- ever try working with a major Class 1 railroad and their lawyers? They weren't exactly looking forward to our inviting thousands of people "up close and personal" with THEIR railroad. Raising the $6 million it cost to build was the easy part to be sure. Few out there I'm sure realize that the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum pays a lease fee every year to the railroad for the privilege of opening the site to the public. And I won't go into the nearly $10 million in special railroad insurance we must keep in force at all times. More than anything its the liability and insurance costs that forced us to begin charging a visitor fee in 1995. We lost nearly $150,000 a year from 1992 to 1995 trying to make it pay by selling souvenirs. Just because we're nonprofit doesn't mean we can lose money either. Next came the Southern Alleghenies Museum of Art and a lengthy battle in the Federal Court to gain ownership of at least a portion of the William Rau collection of PRR photography. Another tough project that cost only a little over a million dollars to build but was the toughest of them all. We being the community of Altoona prevailed, the Rau's are safe now. But the crowning achievement was indeed the creation of a memorial to railroad work and workers in the Master Mechanics Interpretive Center. The prospect of being allowed to run with that development was the real motivation for my move to Altoona in 1990. It was well-planned and well-executed -- an innovative approach to interpreting industrial history by stimulating visitors senses and making emotional connections as a means to learning. I am proud that a community and an Institution gave me so much personal freedom in realizing a dream. And now it is time to move on. An opportunity landed in my lap to do what I did for Altoona on other projects, here and abroad. It means uprooting from the very comfortable life I've lived in Central PA and moving back into the dynamics of big city life. But Boston is a great city and the "hub" of interpretive design. The firm I am joining is growing exponentially every year and the work stretches as far as the Arctic Circle. But I will never forget the wonderful decade spent in Altoona, the people I've met, the stories I've heard and shared. And this group is no small part of that experience, the topics shared here have enlightened me more than I can translate into words. And, though I'll leave Altoona and the land where they still bleed in tuscan red, the beauty of this communicating tool called the "Internet" is in its portability. I'll be with you, reading and even sharing. Warmest regards to all and keep up the good work and scholarship. And thank you Jerry, for facilitating the venue, the dialogue, the learning. Peter Barton Executive Director Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:34:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS Are the model etched Tower and Depot signs still availible and from whom? It's NOT Doug Jones' Schuchill Division - he does Loco Numbers; builder's plates; Trust Plates and tender plates Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!