Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA CONVENTION/ KEYSTONE (sorta long) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 99 06:37:36 -0400 From: Jerry On 6/30/99 8:48 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >As for the Keystone this time, well, what can a guy say? What, 64 pages, and >over 50 of them on a backwater of the Long Island?! And that's part ONE? >Hell, those lantern articles had me deep in thought about renewal. That's >the >bad side. The good side is that the Keystone comes out good and steady four >times a year, is of very high physical quality, and generally has articles >of >interest in every issue. Not to mention the fine artwork. Perhaps because >it's the main reason I belong to the society (and probably many others), I >feel the Keystone has to be kept to a high standard. And generally it is, >and >even mundane Pennsy is a whole lot better than no Pennsy. I, too, had this reaction to the new issue. In-depth articles of this nature are nice, but when that's all that is offered, the subscriber is left watching their mailbox for three more months hoping a "treat" will arrive. Most issues offer something of interest to me...but I have to say that this is one of the finest produced organizational magazines out there. Chuck Blardone does a fantastic job with it and I hope he will continue to do so. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] July 1, II Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are included? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:02:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II > > Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: > > At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > included? Presumably either Buffalo or Detroit? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] July 1 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:44:02 -0400 (EDT) A happy Canada Day (or, The Holiday Formerly Known As Dominion Day) to our friends from the Great White North. Clearly the PRR did not have track in Canada, but her cars surely ran there in interchange traffic. Where in Canada did the PRR have business offices? Did any places in Canada have scheduled or regular or arranged service, via ferry or otherwise? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Nelson" Subject: [PRR] Marion AC tower Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:22:53 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEC3C4.D363EC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone on the list know who the contractor is that is refered to in = June RAILPACE and in July TRAINS as having the tower in MArion, Ohio on = a hit list? Conrail donated the tower to Marion Union Station Assn. and plans are in = process to move it to MUSA property across the diamonds from where it = now stands. CSX has given us until Dec. 15, 1999 to complete the move. = Our concern is that one department of the railroad doesn't know what the = other is doing. The move will cost close to $38,000. AC tower protected the crossing of PRR and the Erie and NYC tracks and = also C&O and the Erie and NYC a bit West of the PRR . Please reply with any information you may have. Thanks, Rick Nelson, rcnelson@bright.net Luke 4:4 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEC3C4.D363EC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone on the list know who the = contractor is=20 that is refered to in June RAILPACE and in July TRAINS as having the = tower in=20 MArion, Ohio on a hit list?
 
Conrail donated the tower to Marion = Union Station=20 Assn. and plans are in process to move it to MUSA property across the = diamonds=20 from where it now stands. CSX has given us until Dec. 15, 1999 to = complete the=20 move.  Our concern is that one department of the railroad doesn't = know what=20 the other is doing.  The move will cost close to = $38,000.
 
AC tower protected the crossing = of  PRR and=20 the Erie and NYC tracks and also C&O and the Erie and NYC a bit West = of the=20 PRR .
 
Please reply with any information you = may=20 have.
 
Thanks,
Rick Nelson,  rcnelson@bright.net
 
 
 
Luke 4:4
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEC3C4.D363EC20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:50:53 -0700 Simple...Detroit, Michigan. Pennsy went there on a little-known line up from Toledo and had a small yard in (if I remember rightly) Allen Park. Canada is just across the river. Bill Daniels (who grew up in Detroit) -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:08 AM Subject: [PRR] July 1, II > >Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: > > At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > included? > >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:27:13 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR in Canada (was July 1) The 1923 CT1000 describes a route (trackage rights, I assume) into Canada from Buffalo. Used DL&W tracks to reach a yard (Black Rock Yard?). Will check this evening. Will also check in the 1945 CT1000 to see if it's listed there. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ---Mark Bej wrote: > > A happy Canada Day (or, The Holiday Formerly Known As Dominion Day) to our > friends from the Great White North. > > Clearly the PRR did not have track in Canada, but her cars surely ran there > in interchange traffic. > > Where in Canada did the PRR have business offices? Did any places in Canada > have scheduled or regular or arranged service, via ferry or otherwise? > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Nelson" Subject: [PRR] MarionAC tower Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:30:28 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEC3C5.E20059C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know who the contactor is taht TRAINS and RAILPACE report as = having Marion Ohio AC tower on a hit list? Conrail donated the tower to Marion Union Station Assn and plans are = nearly complete for moving it to MUSA property. =20 CSX has given us until 12/15/99 to make the move that will cost close to = $38,000. We are concerned that someone at the railroad doesn't know what is going = on in another department and would like to communicate directly with the = contractor involved. AC tower controled the crossing or the PRR Sandusky Branch over the Erie = and NYC lines. Thanaks Rick Nelson, rcnelson@bright.net Luke 4:4 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEC3C5.E20059C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone know who the contactor is = taht TRAINS=20 and RAILPACE report as having Marion Ohio AC tower on a hit = list?
 
Conrail donated the tower to Marion = Union Station=20 Assn and plans are nearly complete for moving it to MUSA = property.
   
CSX has given us until 12/15/99 to make = the move=20 that will cost close to $38,000.
 
We are concerned that someone at the = railroad=20 doesn't know what is going on in another department and would like to=20 communicate directly with the contractor involved.
 
AC tower controled the crossing or the = PRR Sandusky=20 Branch over the Erie and NYC lines.
 
Thanaks
Rick Nelson,   rcnelson@bright.net
 
 
 
Luke 4:4
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEC3C5.E20059C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackage- Michigan. List, I suppose if anyone had a system map showing the trackage then you will see how far up north the Pennsy did run. I don't have one but I have Pennsy Power 1 and they show a small system map with connections on age 8-9. It shows the PRR could reach as far north in Michigan at Mackinaw City. In New York the Pennsy could reach Sodus Point which is farther north than Buffalo. Like I said, I don't know if these are PRR Trackage or connctions with other roads. Need help on that! .....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:20:02 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II I would have to say Buffalo would be the closest, given that Canada is only across the Niagara River from here. The river is about 200 yards wide. I am not familiar with PRR operations in Michigan so this is just a guess on my part. It would have to be either Buffalo or Detroit. On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Mark Bej wrote: > >Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: > > At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > included? > >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:57:23 -0700 Yes...this is (was) the old Mackinac line (former GR&I) that went up the west coast of Michigan through Cadillac to Mackinac City. A branch left Cadillac and went to Lake City...the original Cadillac and Lake City. I once rode this line back in the late '60's. Incidentally, this was Shay country...home of Epharam Shay. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, List, Did not the Pennsy go into Cadilac, Michigan? I have a photo some where in my collection showing a K? in Cadilac. Maybe it was on someone else's trackage. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Altoona Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:47:57 -0400 Jerry, Some of us are bringing friends that are not part of PRR-talk, can they attend the extra sessions and the dinner, if they make reservations? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, List, Did not the Pennsy go into Cadilac, Michigan? I have a photo some where in my collection showing a K? in Cadilac. Maybe it was on someone else's trackage. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:47:38 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] progress on "The Limited" Hello everyone, A progress report on "The Limited". I am just now uploading a major topic group on the Florida Trade. This is running a bit behind schedule, but I hope to have the last of about 15 pages uploaded over the holiday weekend. I hope you will drop in and check it out. Being just now completed (kinda) it needs to be proofread and there is still plenty of room for additions and notes. If you see anything that needs to be added/corrected, please let me know. Some other goodies this month: * a new community service: Classified Ads. These are free for any non commercial buying/selling/swaping, event announcements, info wanted, etc. There is a submission form that can be accessed from the index page. * there are also a number of illustration additions for Milwaukee, L & N, Santa Fe, as well as several stations and depots. * a new Consumer Survey! (Gawd!) The results of the last are very helpful and this one asks some interesting what-if questions about your modeling activities. Check it out! * a progress report on the capitalization effort. "Ah, there's good news tonight!" * also- Psycho has just received the prestigious "Pflugner Award". Ya has ta see it to believe it. While you are at it, please let me know your thoughts about the new graphic treatment on the Index page. Thanks to all, and have a happy Holiday! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:37:17 -0400 I will vote for Flat Rock Yard in Buffalo just across the Niagara River from Canada. I would not be surprised if a Pennsy unit or two didn't venture across the bridge when the CN broke down or to take a transfer freight over there. ---------- > From: Bill Daniels > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II > Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 2:50 PM > > Simple...Detroit, Michigan. Pennsy went there on a little-known line up from > Toledo and had a small yard in (if I remember rightly) Allen Park. Canada is > just across the river. > > Bill Daniels (who grew up in Detroit) > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Bej > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:08 AM > Subject: [PRR] July 1, II > > > > > >Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: > > > > At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > > included? > > > >-- > >Mark > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:24:08 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Daniels Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:57 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, Did not the Pennsy go into Cadilac, Michigan? I have a photo some where in my collection showing a K? in Cadilac. Maybe it was on someone else's trackage. Gary ------------------------------------------ 1870 Ft Wayne to Grand Rapids 1868 Grand Rapids to Cedar Springs 1869 Cedar Springs to Morely 1870 Morley to Paris 1871 Paris to Cadillac 1872 Cadillac to Fife Lake 1873 Fife lake to Petrosky 1876 Petrosky to Bay View 1882 Bay View to Mackinaw All built by GR&I RR Co. (3d) This was the backbone of the GR&I every thing else was branches. Nothing beyond Ft. Wayne. GR&I became affiliated with the PRR on September 30, 1869 when PRR (through PFW&C) acquired a majority of the GR&I stock (deposited in trust) by guaranteeing half of a $8.0 million bond issue. Source: C&C 1945 PRR Report, Volume III - Lines West, pages 309,310. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:00:07 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Canada (was July 1) The 1953 ORER (reprint) shows the PRR interchanging with: Canadian National @ Black Rock NY Canadian National @ Detroit via GTW Canadian Pacific @ Detroit via Wabash Pennsylvania Ontario Transportation Co @Ashtabula Harbor, O (via Port Burwell ONT. and vice versa - "The Pennsylvania - Ontario Transportation Co. Operates the Car Ferry SS "Ashtabula" [wasn't this in a recent Keystone?] across Lake Erie between Ashtabula Harbor, Ohio and Port Burwell, Ontario, in connection with the Pennsylvania Railroad Co, and the Canadian Pacific Railway Co., for the transportation of freight (Carloads) only. Distance 47 miles. General Offices, Rockefeller Bldg., Cleveland 13,O. Apr., 1944." -Page 76 of the same ORER -Bob Vogel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Altoona Date: Thu, 1 Jul 99 19:33:44 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/1/99 5:47 PM, Alan Buchan (abbuchan@familyconnect.net) wrote: >Some of us are bringing friends that are not part of PRR-talk, can they >attend the extra sessions and the dinner, if they make reservations? Absolutely...on the dinner. However, session attendees are highly encouraged to be members of the (national) PRRT&HS. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trackage- Michigan. Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:28:12 -0700 Gary; Both of these lines were PRR proper lines...the Michigan line up the western part of Michigan was ex-Grand Rapids and Indiana, and I believe the line to Sodus Point was ex-Northern Central (check out the book on the Elmira Branch...). I don't know of any published history of the GR&I. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:09 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackage- Michigan. List, I suppose if anyone had a system map showing the trackage then you will see how far up north the Pennsy did run. I don't have one but I have Pennsy Power 1 and they show a small system map with connections on age 8-9. It shows the PRR could reach as far north in Michigan at Mackinaw City. In New York the Pennsy could reach Sodus Point which is farther north than Buffalo. Like I said, I don't know if these are PRR Trackage or connctions with other roads. Need help on that! .....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:39:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: July 1, I & II Happy Dominio..er, Canada Day In a message dated 7/1/99 1:55:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Where in Canada did the PRR have business offices? Did any places in Canada have scheduled or regular or arranged service, via ferry or otherwise? >> Ferry from Ashtabula to CN at Port Burwell, Ont. Story in a 1997 or 1998 Keystone << At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are included? >> Detroit, Mich., via Detroit River tubes to Windsor is close but no ceegar. The connection there is by interchange only from drop off yards on the Detroit side. Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. Tom V., In a message dated 7/1/99 1:55:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Where in Canada did the PRR have business offices? Did any places in Canada have scheduled or regular or arranged service, via ferry or otherwise? >> Ferry from Ashtabula to CN at Port Burwell, Ont. Story in a 1997 or 1998 Keystone << At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are included? >> Detroit, Mich., via Detroit River tubes to Windsor is close but no ceegar. The connection there is by interchange only from drop off yards on the Detroit side. Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. Tom V., ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 04:08:53 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: July 1, I & II Happy Dominio..er, Canada Day > Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., > via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. > > Tom V., > OL&WRR? Maybe the O is really a D? Sorry Mark. It got busy last night and I didn't get to the CT1000. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:00:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are included? >> Although PRR didn't have tracks in Canada, they did operate engines "north" (or in the case of Buffalo "west") of the border. The book "PRR - Standard Railroad of the World" has some pictures of ALCOs operating in Fort Erie starting on page 98. As the book indicates, Detroit also was a main exchange point. In going to some train shows in the Niagara Fall/Hamilton/Toronto area, I was surprised at how may modelers has at least a few PRR locomotives on their layout. They must have made an impression. I've also heard stories of I1s and L1s operating in Fort Erie before the mid-50s. Rick Siller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: July 1, I & II Happy Dominio..er, Canada Day Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Tom Vondruska wins the "best amalgamation of all previous 'Subject' lines into one" contest. Tom, if you've never learned APL, you should. :-) (APL = A Programming Language, a computer programming language noted for its brevity - but horribly dense - syntax). > Subject: [PRR] Re: July 1, I & II Happy Dominio..er, Canada Day LINESWEST@aol.com scribit: > << At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > included? > >> It's amazing how much writing one little question can stimulate. Almost as much as the annual April Fools post. :-) As to proximity to Canada, GR&I is a nice thought, and is unquestionably the northernmost point of the PRR geographically. But the oft-forgotten Upper Peninsula is being forgotten again. Canada is actually quite some distance away by land, as one must cross the hind-quarters of the "fleeing rabbit" of the UP to get to "Soo" St. Marie. Sodus Point appears to be farthest north in Lines East territory, with Rochester placing, and for show, Buffalo *on the WNY&P*. > Detroit, Mich., via Detroit River tubes to Windsor is close but no ceegar. > The connection there is by interchange only from drop off yards on the > Detroit side. > Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., > via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. So the candidates for "closest to Canada" are: 1. Buffalo 2. Detroit 3. Ashtabula ferry. Here's what we have so far: > From: alcoman > I would have to say Buffalo would be the closest, given that Canada is > only across the Niagara River from here. The river is about 200 yards wide. > From: "Bill Daniels" > Simple...Detroit, Michigan. Pennsy went there on a little-known line up from > Toledo and had a small yard in (if I remember rightly) Allen Park. Canada is > just across the river. > From: robert netzlof > The 1923 CT1000 describes a route (trackage rights, I assume) into Canada > from Buffalo. Used DL&W tracks to reach a yard (Black Rock Yard?). Will > check this evening. Will also check in the 1945 CT1000 to see if it's > listed there. > From: "R. Vogel" > The 1953 ORER (reprint) shows the PRR interchanging with: > Canadian National @ Black Rock NY > Canadian National @ Detroit via GTW > Canadian Pacific @ Detroit via Wabash > Pennsylvania Ontario Transportation Co @Ashtabula Harbor, O (via Port > Burwell ONT. and vice versa - > "The Pennsylvania - Ontario Transportation Co. Operates the Car Ferry > SS "Ashtabula" > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > > Did any places in Canada have scheduled or regular or arranged service, > > via ferry or otherwise? > Ferry from Ashtabula to CN at Port Burwell, Ont. Story in a 1997 or 1998 > Keystone > > Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., > via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. As it turns out, there are several questions here. 1. Was there "arranged service"? Most certainly, via the ferry to Port Burwell. Interestingly, judging from the map in Dan Cupper's book, Port Burwell appears to be nowheresville, railroad-wise. But also via trains BF-3, BF-5, BF-7. See the freight train schedules here on my web site, though the nature of the connection is not well specified there. As to Detroit, the 1960 schedules don't mention any specific service, suggesting that PRR was at the mercy of GTW and WAB interchange. 2. Where did the PRR most closely approach Canada on its own trackage? Even here, the question can be interpreted two ways! As the crow flies, or via railroads (the distance a boxcar would have to travel)? In Detroit, the PRR's closest approach to downtown Detroit, and along with this to Canada, would be at the Ecorse Jct / Forman St Wye area, where it interchanged to GTW and WAB. Canada is "right across the river", probably a mile or less, but a boxcar could not travel directly east. Probably the shortest travel distance would be NE to the GTW, then E along the MC to the Detroit River tunnels. Where were the (N&W; thus I assume WAB?) car floats, and how did one get there by rail? I am entirely unfamiliar with the layout in Buffalo and cannot comment. 3. On trackage rights, Fort Erie is _in_ Canada and thus wins. Do we count the ferry as the equivalent of trackage rights, and is Fort Erie tied with Port Burwell? Hmm... -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:50:56 -0400 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Sunset 3rd Rail B-1 I noticed a new engine on the Sunset web page besides the 3rd Rail N-1s. Sunset is going to make the B-1 in O scale. They come in pairs with one unit powered and the other containing a sound. However, the 2 rail version will have both units powered. I think the cost around $700. Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR T-1 Plate LIVES!!!! List, As a lot of you may have seen today on eBay, that T-1 Keystone plate is back for a third time. First time it didn't meet the reserve. Second time it met the reserve at $8,000.00. I was almot 100% sure the winning bidder, "larrygre???, would not come through and pay for it. I was correct! Out of the winning bids this guy has (12) he also has 4 -feedbacks. Pretty bad ratio in my opinion.. He cost me some items and money in the past and I will not honor his bids in my auctions if he were to bid on any of my items. I recommend avoiding him all together if you are a seller of PRR items on eBay.. Now maybe we will see what this T-1 Plate is really worth to someone......... Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada (was July 1) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:24:59 -0400 Hi All! I'm not aware of any Pennsy trackage or trackage rights that actually entered Canada, although the Michigan Central / NYC / PC/ Conrail did operate their own trackage connecting Detroit to Buffalo through SW Ontario. The railway was called the Canada Southern (CASO). So the closest I'm aware of to PRR running here is the Penn Central. Other US railroads that operated / operate in Canada are Wabash, C&O, Chessie System, CSX, NS (I see NS trains on CN rails every day) D&H (ran into Montreal in pre-CP-ownership days) GN/BNSF (into British Columbia) Amtrak (runs several daily trains) Conrail (in addition to the CASO, Conrail operated a transfer into CP Rail's Windsor yard - not sure if they still do) Boston and Maine also ran passenger service into Montreal using E-Units, which is the only reason CP bought their 3 E-8's (pool power). So, there are lots of examples of US roads in Canada, but none of the Pennsy that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean it didn't happen; just that I've never heard of it. Regards! Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:37:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day! Hi Guys, Can someone enlighten me as to the type of sand, used to enhance traction of the driving wheels, and its source? It appears (to me) to be a fine grained, white, beach sand. But, that source doesn't seem to be plausible; as certainly, folks would be up-in-arms if the railroads were to strip their beaches. Anyone know? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:19:32 -0700 Can anyone provide an update on this fire? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Volkmer's newest Book! List, I just heard about the recent release of Bill's newest book. I myself havn't yet seen it and don't know what the title is, but from what I here from the Pittsburgh Street Car fans here in the Pittsburgh area, this is a must have book because of all the color photos of the Street Cars from this area. I can't wait to see it!. To coincide with that new Book I am going to list another Model Photo today. This model pertains to the Pittsburgh Railways Streetcars. Below you will see a link to view these models. The large one is an O scale Corgi PCC and the smaller one is an HO scale Pittsburgh Railways Car. This was a brass import from MTS. I painted both of these for customers in the Pittsburgh area. In fact the O scale Corgi PCC was requested by the Port Authority as a gift they were giving to a 100 year old retired Street Car operator. I heard he was thrilled!!! Again, check this book out if you are a street car fan of an kind......Gary http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/patpccs.jpg http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:03:09 -0700 That's good. Let me be more specific. Can anyone provide an update on the fire _damage_? Any indication whether any of the building can be salvaged? > ---------- > From: Bill Volkmer[SMTP:herzog1@gate.net] > Reply To: herzog@icanect.net > Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 11:40 AM > To: John Cooper; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire > > It is out! > > ---------- > > From: John Cooper > > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire > > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 1:19 PM > > > > Can anyone provide an update on this fire? > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:40:46 -0400 It is out! ---------- > From: John Cooper > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 1:19 PM > > Can anyone provide an update on this fire? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day! Dear George and the List There are sand pits and sand mines much like gravel operations. There are lots of places in the Northeast that during post glacial periods were "beachfront property" You are correct that it is usually the white beach type (yellow actually) that is used most commonly. At the New York and Lake Erie we use Black Betty (better known to body shops and sandblasters) it is a ground slag material that isnt affected by moisture the way that the white sand does. On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: >Hi Guys, > >Can someone enlighten me as to the type of sand, used to enhance traction of >the driving wheels, and its source? It appears (to me) to be a fine grained, >white, beach sand. But, that source doesn't seem to be plausible; as >certainly, folks would be up-in-arms if the railroads were to strip their >beaches. Anyone know? > >Thanks, >George > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 19:28:45 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] [HO] Walthers Passenger Cars I noticed on Walthers web page they are reintroducing their Oscar & Piker cars in plastic. The models will feature separate grabs and interiors. While these models are of little interest to the PRR modeler, I wonder if they are going to do any other of their old passenger cars, most significantly, the Pullmans. I know Branchline has announced Pullman cars, and any model they produce would blow Walthers out of the water quality wise. Any chance Walthers could beat them to the punch? Branchlines box cars are way behind and I think they are going to do the reefers before the Pullmans. Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:40:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada (was July 1) According to the 1946 annual report the PRR had trackage rights from Buffalo to Bridgeburg, Ont. via Grand Trunk Ry. a distance of 1.79 miles and from Bridgeburg Ont to the end of Victoria Yard, Ont. via Michigan Central a distance of 1.2 miles. This would seem to indicated that the PRR operated a total of 1.99 miles, or there about, of track in Canada. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Logansport-area maps Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:28:15 -0400 (EDT) A bunch of Logansport-area maps, lent to me by Steve Long, have been scanned, edited, and are on the web for your viewing pleasure. They are at: http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_col_log_main.html and http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_col_log_branch.html The Canton District is nearly complete, just missing one map that will be up soon. See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_tolj_tol_main.html and http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_tolj_tol_branch.html and http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_col_san_main.html More from the Philly Division will be added soon, and Chicago will be next. The links above are hand-typed, so if they are incorrect, mea culpa. The main page is, of course, http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:23:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day! In a message dated 7/2/99 1:15:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Eichhorn@aol.com writes: << Can someone enlighten me as to the type of sand, used to enhance traction of the driving wheels, and its source? It appears (to me) to be a fine grained, white, beach sand. But, that source doesn't seem to be plausible; as certainly, folks would be up-in-arms if the railroads were to strip their beaches. Anyone know? Thanks, George >> Around Dayton, Ohio, there's two types of strip mining operations, Limestone quarries and aggregate mines, but we lump them all together with the pejorative "Gravel Pits." Since much of the Limestone in this area is a variety called brassfield and is high in magnesium, its the ideal raw material to cook into Portland cement. There were some quarries along the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Norther/Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati which quarried limestone blocks for build but I know of none currently in production. Dayton is built atop the once mighty Teays River which before the last ice age drained the Great Lakes. Its massive channel and much of its riverine valley was buried under vast sand and gravel beds deposited by the advance of the glaciers. Gravel pit operators sort the aggregate into a wide variety of gravel and sand with particle size ranging from a number of crushed or riverine grades larger than pea gravel down to the finest grains of sand. The sand was dried and stored in moisture free bins for use in the locomotives. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David William Gnuse Subject: [PRR] reservations for Railfest Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 02:23:23 -0400 Does anyone know of a hotel/motel near the tracks for a reasonable rate in Altoona. I am not looking for something in a bad neighborhood, and am not looking for something in the "sticks". David --------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Gnuse dgnuse@erols.com kickitup@railfan.net Fractal Page Railfan Page www.erols.com/dgnuse kickitup.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 00:03:56 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada I'm not exactly sure how to read this publication but: All the following information is from the "Record of Transportation Lines owned and operated by, and associated in interest with, The Pennsylvania Railroad Company. Compiled from official data on file in office of Chief Engineer, at Philadelphia. For the year ending December 31, 1948" Printed 1948. a table labeled "Embracing the operated lines of all its transportation companies arranged according to states" List includes 2.45 miles in Canada. a table labeled "Trackage Rights Arranged according to states" List includes 2.45 miles of track in Canada on two lines. Line 25 includes 1.25 miles in Canada and .54 in New York Line 35 includes 1.20 miles in Canada and .81 in Michigan In the Grand Summary the list "Trackage Rights by States" the list includes: 2.45 miles of First Track, 1.14 Miles of Second Track and 9.12 miles of "CO's Sidings" for a total of 12.71 miles of track. It has a reference to the National Bridge in Buffalo N.Y. and access to Bridgeburg Ont., Canada to the end of Victoria Yard. The trackage rights are held by the WPA&NY RY The above is from the Central Region Trackage Rights chart, In the Western Region, I can't find any mention of a line in Canada. I'm not familiar with Michigan at all ( sorry to all the Lines West and Michigan folks ), but if someone could direct me as to the city, I may be able to find a reference point. I have not check any of this information against the 1945 CT1000. Cos wsbcos.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:22:11 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Wayne S. Betty Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 12:04 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada Follow up to Wayne's discovery: C&C 1945 PRR report shows trackage rights on Michigan Central RR - Bridgeburg, Ont. to end of Victoria Yard, Ont. under agreement dated June 1, 1916, effective same date, to Western New York and Pennsylvania Railway Co., 1.20 miles. WNY&P Ry Co. was part of Lines East, there being several ownership entities PRR Proper, Lines East, Lines West, and Affiliated Companies. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:29:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Kitbashing gondulas I know there are a couple of articles floating about showing the conversion of ConCor's 54' and 52'-6" mil gons to PRR gons. How about the 52'-6" mill gon that P2K has out now, can or has anyone been able to convert one of those to anything that resembles a PRR gon? Thanks, Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:09:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] reservations for Railfest Hi to Dave and the list; There are NO hotel/motel accommodations at trackside in the Altoona area except for Station Inn at Cresson; I suspect they are already fully booked. The next closest would be at Huntingdon, Pa., 38 miles east on U.S.22. The Holiday Inn Jr is approx 2 blocks from mainline at the former PRR station. No hotels at Tyrone, Pa. All motel accommodations in the Altoona area are on the Pleasant Valley Blvd/Plank Road strip where all the retail shopping,restaurants, mall are located. Pleasant Valley Blvd and Plank Road are one and the same by name. David Seidel Altoona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Standardization Trivia Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 01:50:08 -0700 The PRR advertised and practiced the concept of standardization. I was looking through some old data and found a listing of standardized smokebox fronts from PRR steam. The most common size was the 82" diameter which was used on 2529 locos of 19 classes and 6 wheel arrangements. I would imagine most of you could guess what the classes were. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 19:34:34 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada I had the chance today to sit down and read the Western Region operated lines and trackage rights. The trackage was more than likely in the Northwestern Division with both the Grand Rapids Division and Toledo Division with trackage in Mich. Detroit was in the Toledo Division. I don't find any reference to anything going to Canada. An interesting find was that the PRR itself had trackage rights over Grand Trunk Railway into Milwaukee Wisconsin. Cos wsbcos.com Mark Bej wrote: > > The above is from the Central Region Trackage Rights chart, > > In the Western Region, I can't find any mention of a line in Canada. I'm not > > familiar with Michigan at all ( sorry to all the Lines West and Michigan folks > > ), but if someone could direct me as to the city, I may be able to find a > > reference point. > > I have not checked any of this information against the 1945 CT1000. > > The Mich. trackage rights would be within the city of Detroit and into > the Ontario city of Windsor. I.e., if lower Michigan is a hand, > 1/3 of the way from the bottom up the thumb. > > -- > Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Smokebox fronts Gene, list, The 82" smokebox fronts were assigned to the following loco classes. C1, E6, G5, H8, H8a, H8b, H8c, H8s, H8sa, H8sb, H8sc, H9, H9s, H9sa, H9sc, H10s, K4s, K4sa, and L1s. I cheated, the info comes from THE KEYSTONE, Vol.2 No. 4 Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:19:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada In a message dated 7/3/99 10:07:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wsbcos@cris.com writes: << An interesting find was that the PRR itself had trackage rights over Grand Trunk Railway into Milwaukee Wisconsin. >> The connection was via ferry from Muskegon, Mich. at the end of a GR&I Branch. I believe this also was the subject of a recent article, I believe it was in a 1998 Mainline Modeler written by a GTW employee exercising trackage rights on the GR&I. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 00:07:08 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] bye-bye birdie and sleeping cheap Hi all... First the bye-bye birdie stuff....This evening i caught the tail end of ABC's version of the musical "Bye - Bye Birdie. in the movie a train stops at the station and picks up two of caractors from the movie. Anyway....I took notice of the train. (what railfan would'nt ?) Any..way....The engine was a Alco RSD type. painting in PRR colors and...was numbered either 591 or 561. It was very close as far as paint jobs go...but had a dang keystone under the number on the cab. Then there was the passenger car. This appeared to be a Heavyweight Observation also painted in PRR colors and lettering...The stripes were kinda wide...It was numbered 1616 ? and there was a keystone at the center of the car. Anyone know about this equipment ? Ok now that we have Hollywood behind us.... I've been doing some messing around with some of the old Rivarossi sleeping cars. And after looking at the pictures in both the color guide books, MR's Oct 94 Broadway plans and the floor plans from the PRR Passenger and Freight car diagram book I've noticed some things you might be able to do with these cars. (Ok i know that Eastern Car works has their car sides...But hey if you don't mind cutting cars up and putting them back together and if you can get used or damaged car cheap , Then this is an alternative idea.) One thing is to make a more correct or different version of the 10-6 sleepers. The 10-6 they (Rivarossi)make seems to follow the " Eagle" series of cars. With part of the side from the Observation you can make one of the other " Rapids " cars such as Cattawissa Rapids. Also with some tinkering you might be able to build one of the earlier 10-5 sleepers. Also if you can get two 10-6 cars you might be able to make one of the ACF type 21 roomette cars such as Zanesville Inn. I thought of using two 10-6 cars because of the window spacing. Then theres the prewar 18 roomettes. You might be able to make one from two 12-5 duplex sleepers. Using the passageway side of course and you would have to move the door on one side and such. Then for the little braver there is the other seven post war observations. This would entail using double windows from another car. Also with some playing around you might be able to build the Diner part of a post war twin unit. from a 10-6 or parts of the observation car. (the obs for more correct windows.) Theres also the Harbor cars...which could be made from parts of the 10-6 and the observations. Also perhaps a post war 4-4-2 car. This would be from what ever would work to get this car. But that would entail a lot more cutting and filling and sanding...Perhaps not worth the trouble. Anyone out there want to field this ? Remember its just a idea. Have fun everyone and have a safe holliday. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:28:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smokebox fronts In a message dated 7/3/99 10:08:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Gene, list, The 82" smokebox fronts were assigned to the following loco classes. C1, E6, G5, H8, H8a, H8b, H8c, H8s, H8sa, H8sb, H8sc, H9, H9s, H9sa, H9sc, H10s, K4s, K4sa, and L1s. I cheated, the info comes from THE KEYSTONE, Vol.2 No. 4 Gary >> Slick. That's an early enough issue that none of us have it. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] X29A question Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:14:19 +0100 Hello again, A friend of mine has recently acquired a brass X28 boxcar (unknown source) and has come up against a problem. He has managed to convert it to the single door X28A version as rebuilt from 1933 but is stuck with the ends. The model has 4.3.1 dreadnaught ends and while we know X28's had plain ends and some received corrugated ends we are not sure about the correctness of the dreadnaughts. Any offers from the freight car experts in the group? Thanks, John H. Wright Note: change in e-mail address. Website still at original address: www.jhwright.demon.co.uk for the time being. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAJK4@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:27:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:52:27 -0700 Walt: Pennsy Power II has some...none that I know of in PPIII. There are other print sources, but I don't know of any offhand. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 21:20:27 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos WAJK4@aol.com wrote: > > Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse > Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a > diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. The 1997 book "Train Master -- The Most Useful Locomotive Ever Built," by Diesel Era with David R. Sweetland, is still in print: 112 pages, perfect bound, covers all 10 original owners of the H24-66 model, plus the H16-66 junior Train Master. Color & black & white photos. ISBN 1-881411-13-3, LofC # 97-060477. If you can't find a copy at a local bookstore or hobby shop, call the publisher, Withers Publishing, direct at 717-896-3173. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 23:27:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Remember, the PRR purchased only six H-24-66 Trainmasters and all six performed yard, hump and transfer duties in and around Columbus, heart of the Panhandle. Tom V.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:47:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > Remember, the PRR purchased only six H-24-66 Trainmasters and all six > performed yard, hump and transfer duties in and around Columbus, heart of the > Panhandle. I'm looking at 2 in Johnstown (Conemaugh, actually) on page 78 of Pennsy Diesel Years 3. I'm almost certain I've seen another shot of them there. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:47:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > Remember, the PRR purchased only six H-24-66 Trainmasters and all six > performed yard, hump and transfer duties in and around Columbus, heart of the > Panhandle. I'm looking at 2 in Johnstown (Conemaugh, actually) on page 78 of Pennsy Diesel Years 3. I'm almost certain I've seen another shot of them there. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:10:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada (was July 1) In a message dated 7/2/99 5:06:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SUVCWORR@AOL.COM writes: << According to the 1946 annual report the PRR had trackage rights from Buffalo to Bridgeburg, Ont. via Grand Trunk Ry. a distance of 1.79 miles and from Bridgeburg Ont to the end of Victoria Yard, Ont. via Michigan Central a distance of 1.2 miles. This would seem to indicated that the PRR operated a total of 1.99 miles, or there about, of track in Canada. Rich Orr >> Rich, That's astounding -- it's even less than the 3 miles of track the PRR owned in Kentucky. Of course, until 1865, Kentucky was part of the United States. Once the Civil War was lost, Kentucky was rumored to have joined the Confederacy . Or do only British Commonwealth members apply here? Rick Tipton Living south of the River at Louisville. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:32:19 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] T-1 lettering and appropriate decals Hello list, My Bowser T-1 will soon be ready for paint and decals. While inaccurate, I've decided upon Polly Scale's grimy black for the main color; it shows up well in photos and makes appreciating all that work much easier (also, I avoid the whole DGLE controversy). I want to model the 5524 (because she's the last Altoona-built steam engine) as she appeared in 1950. My question is: Did the T-1s retain their fancy striping in 1950, or did they receive the regular tender lettering by this time? I've been looking through my PRR books, and most show the T-1s up until about 1947-48 (when the definitely had stripes), or in scrap lines in 1952-53 (when they appear not to have stripes). By the way, the Alco Products repower kit I installed makes the engine a much smoother runner; I'd recommend it to anyone owning a Bowser T-1. Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:23:43 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos --Boundary_(ID_yMUNS1ogJnecHiH5RcMeqA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, Pictures of the PRR Trainmasters can be found in Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol 1, (and I'm sure the rest of the series, but that's all I have in my possession now), and in Staufer's Pennsy Power III, starting on page 327. Pennsy Power II has photographs, too, but I don't own a copy. Morning Sun's book on the Trainmaster may also come in handy for you. WAJK4@aol.com wrote: > Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse > Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a > diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. > > Walt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_yMUNS1ogJnecHiH5RcMeqA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,

Pictures of the PRR Trainmasters can be found in Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol 1, (and I'm sure the rest of the series, but that's all I have in my possession now), and in Staufer's Pennsy Power III, starting on page 327.  Pennsy Power II has photographs, too, but I don't own a copy.  Morning Sun's book on the Trainmaster may also come in handy for you.

WAJK4@aol.com wrote:

Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse
Trainmaster on the web or in a book.  I have had no luck other than finding a
diagram of it on the web.  Thanks for your help.

Walt

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--Boundary_(ID_yMUNS1ogJnecHiH5RcMeqA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:51:08 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Walt You might want to check out http://www.northeast.railfan.net/railphotos.html Clint Chamberlin has a very extensive F-M picture archive located there. Hope this helps you out!! On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Dan Cupper wrote: >WAJK4@aol.com wrote: >> >> Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse >> Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a >> diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. > > > >The 1997 book "Train Master -- The Most Useful Locomotive Ever Built," >by Diesel Era with David R. Sweetland, is still in print: 112 pages, >perfect bound, covers all 10 original owners of the H24-66 model, plus >the H16-66 junior Train Master. Color & black & white photos. ISBN >1-881411-13-3, LofC # 97-060477. If you can't find a copy at a local >bookstore or hobby shop, call the publisher, Withers Publishing, direct >at 717-896-3173. > >Dan Cupper > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 lettering and appropriate decals Doug, List, Thats a good question. Never heard of that one and never paid attention to that detail. Most T-1s were gone by 1953 era and you seen photos with the striped tenders in 1947 era, so my guees is they probably retained them. They may have deteriorated so you could not seem them but I would imagine underneeth all the grime they were still there. I will look into my collection of photos to see what I can come up with. As to the color of your Bowser T1. It may be wrong but it is YOUR engine and you have the right to paint it the way you like. If you weather it, anyone that sees it probably won't notice the difference anyway. For decals I recommend the new ones Bowser made for the new release T1. The stripes are applied in one whole piece. And the decal film hides nicely when glossed or dulcoated..........Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:01:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos In a message dated 7/5/99 7:33:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << > Remember, the PRR purchased only six H-24-66 Trainmasters and all six > performed yard, hump and transfer duties in and around Columbus, heart of the > Panhandle. I'm looking at 2 in Johnstown (Conemaugh, actually) on page 78 of Pennsy Diesel Years 3. I'm almost certain I've seen another shot of them there. >> There is also some evidence that one or two wandered down to Cincinnati. However, I have never been able to completely confirm or deny this. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:18:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR 1968 In a message dated 7/5/99 12:10:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cdjhyoung@yahoo.com writes: << A short query that may invoke a long response. I notice your signature shows you are modeling Pennsy in '68. What brought you to that era? I ask because I find myself working on two project railroads, my home project is C&O 1969, my club's operation based layout is Wabash in 1964. Each was chosen for some rather limiting and arbitrary reasons. What framed your choice? John Young (you know what I'm modeling) >> Hi John, At this point, I could be a coward and say that I don't know. But actually, I remember a few answers (remember, you asked for this): 1. Not to be pedantic, but the old "oh, I model between 1959 and 1968" approach is not for me. I like the idea of modeling a particular time on the prototype. For me, that time is June 1968. Actually, it was a really horrible time for America, but it was an interesting time on the railroad. Rail traffic was booming that year, and no one could predict the disaster in PC's future (same thing that makes TITANIC a great story). 2. Diesel models were cheaper, better running, and more durable than steam. They still are (and I have over 100 units). 3. 1966-68 is a "sweet spot" in terms of variety of old and new diesel models for PRR. This is true for number of prototype diesel models, and again for models available in HO. I can show you the graphs -- variety is at an all-time high in diesel history. 4. 1968 covers Pennsy rolling stock right to the end, including all the interesting cars built by vendors in the 60's, especially those for auto parts. 5. With PK (plain keystones, the unshaded ones) on freight cars, some orange cabooses, and virtually all diesels in the large yellow-orange numbers on the cab, it's different than the "classic era" most PRR modelers represent. 5. I'm modeling "what I know", following a recommendation Allen McClelland made to me while we were working on something else. I started railfanning in 1970, and understand that era pretty well. Also, since the units I fanned were all in the post-1966 numbers (really PC), the units I model look "familiar" to me. 6. Being right after the merger, I can use PRR, NYC, and PC cars as home-road. Before the explosion of plastic car availability, having any variety among homeroad cars was a real problem. And modeling prototype operations demanded a high homeroad ratio. 7. Oddly, although I can use first-generation PC paint jobs, there are almost none on the layout. This may be because most commercial PC items are a) wrong b) later in PC's life c) terminally ugly -- take your pick. 8. No pesky "handrails" (induction train phone antennas) on roof of engines and cabin cars (cabooses). 9. The 40' car still exists in quantity, but some new boxcars and covered hoppers can be used. 10. In terms of the physical surroundings, the buildings and even brand names tended to have been around for years. Actually, the railroad would not have changed much since 1942, when a lot of signaling upgrading took place. And most of the traditional ag shippers were still in business and shipping by rail. By the 70s, farms in the area I model started to disappear under waves of suburbanization. In that sense, 1968 is a pause before the "attack of the bulldozers". To sum up, it's obvious I enjoy tackling a particular prototype. I enjoy doing something a bit different, both familiar and offbeat. And the era offers variety, but the remnants of classic single-car railroading. What can I say? By the way, what part of the C&O are you modeling in 1969? My C&O-fan friends from Dayton, Cincinnati, and Louisville used to drag me off to Handley, Quinnimont, and Hinton in the 70's. I've spent a lot of time on (if not in) the New River. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:28:08 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Parlor-Coach combines Hi all, I'm curently building a kitbash of a certain Pennsy passenger car, and I'm trying to gather up some more information on it. I'm hoping others on the list might know a little more about this set of cars. Both to avoid folks sending me info I already have, and in order to share what I have managed to piece together so far, here is what I know... In 1931, the PRR and Pullman build a pair of parlor-coach combine cars. These cars were not assigned names (as was the practice for Pullman cars) but were instead assigned numbers - PRR 3620 and PRR 3621. As these two cars are listed in the 1938 ORER under PRR and were assignes PRR numbers, I assume that PRR (not Pullman) owned the cars. Still, the cars were lettered "Pullman" on the letterboard. Presumably these cars were a product of their time and the prevailing economic conditions. With the Great Depression under full swing, it might have made much more sense to run a parlor-coach combine in a consist than to run a full parlor car with mostly empty seats! The only photo and diagram I have come across confirm that this car can be modeled in N scale by plating over one of the windows in a Rivarossi heavyweight coach - this is the approach I have taken. The resources I've come across so far include: (1) Kratville "Passenger Car Catalog" page 143 shows a photo of the car and a plan. The photo caption indicates this car is "Plan 4011-A, Rebuilt, PRR service". The plan caption indicates "Plan 4011-A These cars Diagram 136. Car numbers 3620,3621." The photo shows no discernable lettering, only the word "PULLMAN" on the letterboard. (2) The PRR Passenger Equipment listings in the Apr 1938 ORER lists these cars as part of the series 3101-3632. Nearly all of the cars in this series are listed as coaches, but some are called out under "Note P" as AAR class PBC(e) (Parlor Lounge Coach) and finally, the two cars of interest to me are called out under "Note Q" as AAR class DB(e), Parlor Lounge, Buffet, Coach. (3) The Smithsonian Institute list of negatives indicates negative 36595 as "Coach 3620 interior" under the PRR listings. Photo is dated 1931. The questions I have include: What were these cars rebuilt from (presumably they were not built NEW in the year 1931!)? What trains did they (or were they likely to have) run in? Were the coach and parlor sections of the car staffed/ maintained by separate sets of employees (Pullman AND PRR)? In Kratville, the diagram and the photo do not match exactly in terms of window spacing. Why would this be? Perhaps the car was further rebuilt after the drawing was made? Or is the drawing just plain wrong? Thanks for any help... if anyone is interested in building one of these in N scale, drop me a note and I'll provide you with a few pointers... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:07:48 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: [PRR] [FWD]Tower car for wire train. Greetings to the group, I received this very detailed question from Mr. Ed French (brass1@olypen.com). Can anyone help this gentleman? -Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Can you help? Please! Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:41:11 +0000 From: Judy French-Scott Organization: Brass 1 To: cobrandt@eclipse.net ... please help or give me a reference to further my search for images of the PRR TOWER CAR for the WIRE TRAIN I am modeling this car in 1:29 scale for my garden railroad. I have reached a dilemma in some finish details not clear in the few pictures in my library. My best picture is in PRR COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT by Sweetland Yanosey, copyright 1992, bottom of page 108. I have another picture of the same car in Volume 2, same title by Fischer, copyright 1996, top of page 114. I also found a working catenary wire maintenance train on page 285 of THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD by Alexander, copyright 1947. These pictures show the tower platform raised to working position. My question: How is the tower raised, lowered, and held in position? I examined my "best picture". I see hoists with hanging cables attached to the upper part of the scaffold-like structure which is attached to the flat car body. This hoist is repeated in each of three bays of the structure. Below these hoists are somewhat cubical devices which are attached to the bottom of the elevating scaffold. The hoist cables apparently are attached here. I need a bit more detail information to apply this feature to my model. Can you help me? I would like to discuss this by phone with someone, if possible. Daytime or evening is convenient for me. Any response or contact will be appreciated. I am connecting with you electronically through my daughter. So please call collect or E-Mail as you please. Many thanks, Ed French E. M. French 1612 Pepperidge Drive Orlando, FL 32806 E-Mail via daughter Judy French-Scott (that's "brass" followed by a number "1") -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:24:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] [HO] Walthers Passenger Cars Andy, Your posting got me interested and indeed, one of the local hobby shops had a walthers blurb on these two "cars". Why they've decided to bring these back I can't imagine, other than the "fun" aspect, but if it's an indication that better things might follow, great. I've always like the old Walther's cars (wouldn't it be nice to see the modernized combine back in production?), but i have to agree that Branclines, delayed as they seem to be, will more than likely build a far better product (made in the USA, to boot). Well, we'll see what developes. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:28:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 lettering and appropriate decals Doug, It's my opinion that once the T's were pulled off the first class trains and assigned to the mail/express trains if they were repainted they were probably done in the plain no stripe scheme . Most of the later in life shots I've seen show no striping but most were so dirty they still might have stripes under all the dirt. One thing else to consider. Depending on your type of lighting on your layout I would not recommend the use of Grimy Black as the main color. I painted my blast furnaces grimy black and under my cool-white fluorescents they had a purple sheen to them. Using grimy black as a weathering over engine black or DGLE doesn't seem to have the purple sheen problem. Hope this helps. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: [PRR] PRR Triumph II Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:37:16 -0400 Hi all. Hope you are all cooler than we are here in South Jersey. Has anyone heard about the status of the Triumph II book? Last I heard there was a problem between the author and the publisher. It was supposed to be published in the spring (this year, I thought). I paid for the book back in April and I was wondering if I poured my money down a rat hole. Someone on the list previously stated that he thought that Triumph III would make it to market before II. Bud ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:41:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] kitbashing gondulas I thought I sent this out to the list last week, but, I don't remember seeing it come across my pc and I didn't see any answers. I guess I'm getting old and hitting the wrong keys on the board. Anyway, please forgive me if this came across your terminal: I have seen some articles dealing with kitbashing ConCor gons (the 52'-6" and 54' mill gons) to make them Pennsy like. Has anyone done anything like that with the current P2K 54' mill gons? Thanks, Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:18:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] kitbashing gondulas Joel, The P2K gondola is not correct for a Pennsy Gondola. You could model it as an ERIE, LV, or NYC/P&LE or any other use in your consist though. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:30:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Taking the show on the road Hey Yuze Guys, I have been talking with Jim Six and other members of the MRA Steering Committee and we are now in negotiations with the NMRA to help promote in a couple of their regional conventions. We will display our models individually and separately from their modeling contest. Our hopes are to have a separate room for ourselves as the contest room has limited visiting hours and I am sure you would all agree we would much rather have a bit more freedom. Details will be forth coming, we sure hope that the cooperation between NMRA regional's and MRA's works out. I realize it depends on where and when the conventions are held, but let me know what the consensus is. I am not a huge fan of the NMRA but they are offering us EXPOSURE as a trade. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR 1968 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:22:51 -0500 Dejavu. Rick, I couldn't believe your response. I thought that email was written by me, since I am modeling the PRR in 1968 for almost the same exact reasons. All I can say is ditto to your 10 points! Regards, Greg Johnson Modeling 1968 Pittsburgh in 1999 Houston -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com To: cdjhyoung@yahoo.com ; ldsig@onelist.com ; MEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 2:46 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR 1968 >In a message dated 7/5/99 12:10:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >cdjhyoung@yahoo.com writes: > ><< A short query that may invoke a long response. I notice your signature > shows you are modeling Pennsy in '68. What brought you to that era? I > ask because I find myself working on two project railroads, my home > project is C&O 1969, my club's operation based layout is Wabash in > 1964. Each was chosen for some rather limiting and arbitrary reasons. > What framed your choice? > > John Young > (you know what I'm modeling) > >> >Hi John, >At this point, I could be a coward and say that I don't know. But actually, >I remember a few answers (remember, you asked for this): > >1. Not to be pedantic, but the old "oh, I model between 1959 and 1968" >approach is not for me. I like the idea of modeling a particular time on the >prototype. For me, that time is June 1968. Actually, it was a really >horrible time for America, but it was an interesting time on the railroad. >Rail traffic was booming that year, and no one could predict the disaster in >PC's future (same thing that makes TITANIC a great story). >2. Diesel models were cheaper, better running, and more durable than steam. >They still are (and I have over 100 units). >3. 1966-68 is a "sweet spot" in terms of variety of old and new diesel models >for PRR. This is true for number of prototype diesel models, and again for >models available in HO. I can show you the graphs -- variety is at an >all-time high in diesel history. >4. 1968 covers Pennsy rolling stock right to the end, including all the >interesting cars built by vendors in the 60's, especially those for auto >parts. >5. With PK (plain keystones, the unshaded ones) on freight cars, some orange >cabooses, and virtually all diesels in the large yellow-orange numbers on the >cab, it's different than the "classic era" most PRR modelers represent. >5. I'm modeling "what I know", following a recommendation Allen McClelland >made to me while we were working on something else. I started railfanning in >1970, and understand that era pretty well. Also, since the units I fanned >were all in the post-1966 numbers (really PC), the units I model look >"familiar" to me. >6. Being right after the merger, I can use PRR, NYC, and PC cars as >home-road. Before the explosion of plastic car availability, having any >variety among homeroad cars was a real problem. And modeling prototype >operations demanded a high homeroad ratio. >7. Oddly, although I can use first-generation PC paint jobs, there are almost >none on the layout. This may be because most commercial PC items are a) >wrong b) later in PC's life c) terminally ugly -- take your pick. >8. No pesky "handrails" (induction train phone antennas) on roof of engines >and cabin cars (cabooses). >9. The 40' car still exists in quantity, but some new boxcars and covered >hoppers can be used. >10. In terms of the physical surroundings, the buildings and even brand >names tended to have been around for years. Actually, the railroad would not >have changed much since 1942, when a lot of signaling upgrading took place. >And most of the traditional ag shippers were still in business and shipping >by rail. By the 70s, farms in the area I model started to disappear under >waves of suburbanization. In that sense, 1968 is a pause before the "attack >of the bulldozers". > >To sum up, it's obvious I enjoy tackling a particular prototype. I enjoy >doing something a bit different, both familiar and offbeat. And the era >offers variety, but the remnants of classic single-car railroading. What can >I say? > >By the way, what part of the C&O are you modeling in 1969? My C&O-fan >friends from Dayton, Cincinnati, and Louisville used to drag me off to >Handley, Quinnimont, and Hinton in the 70's. I've spent a lot of time on (if >not in) the New River. > >Til the next train out, > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) > Operating the Panhandle Route > And Remembering PRR Lines West > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 03:37:13 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Pennsy in Canada, 3 references >From the 1945 CT1000, pg 275: BFO Buffalo, NY (Bailey Ave.)(Jc. DL&W RR) 0.0 RK Black Rock, NY 11.2 BG Bridgeburg, Ont (Can. Nat. Rys - Yard) 13.2 " " (Wabash Ry Yard) 13.2 VK Victoria, Ont (M. C. RR Victoria Yard) 13.7 >From 1923 CT1000, pg 322: same as above, except delete reference to Wabash In both CT1000's there is fine print in the left margin indicating DL&W from Buffalo to Black Rock, CN Ry at Bridgeburg, MC RR at Victoria. >From ICC Valuation Report, Vol 22, pp 363-364 Property jointly used but not owned, owned by: The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad Co. Trackage 11.18 miles Buffalo to Black Rock, NY The Grand Trunk Railway Co. Trackage 1.05 miles Balck Rock NY to Fort Erie, Ont. The Michigan Central Railroad Co. Trackage 1.11 miles International to Birdgeport, Ont Note that the ICC and the PRR have different ideas about the names of some points in Ontario. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:10:37 -0400 Pennsy Diesel Years Volumes 1-6, Wabash, Norfolk and Western in color, Jersey Central, any Reading book, just to name a few, all by Morning Sun Books. They even did an all FM book which of course contains the Trainmaster. ---------- > From: WAJK4@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos > Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 5:27 PM > > Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse > Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a > diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. > > > Walt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:56:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Strafford Station Fire The fire was determined to be electrical; damages estimated at $4 million. A photo in the Philadelphia Inquirer shows a hole in the exterior wall approx 2' square. Although I haven't checked it myself, a visit to www.phillynews.com MAY have more info/photos... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 09:24:56 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] bye-bye birdie and sleeping cheap Hank, I have done one of the post-war observations (SAMUEL REA) and the Broadway mid train lounge just as you suggest, from old Rivarossi cars. I have also done a post-war 6br lounge (ASPEN FALLS). As you guessed, the mid train lounges are best done from an observation car. They have the same size lounge windows. One lounge window has to be bocked out and the end needs to be replaced with a standard end from a 10-6. However, for the same (or less) effort, all these cars and more (less the post-war observations) are now available from Union Station Products (Jerry is a dealer). This also circumvents some to the Rivarossi problems, such as the two-foot deep windows and the heavyweight underbody! The only thing which remains easier on the Rivarossi cars, is painting the aluminum window frames which made post-war PRR cars so distinctive. The oversize window frame on Rivarossi made that much easier. On several cars I have combined the two ideas. I used USP sides with a Rivarossi roof. I have several left over from my many kitbashes. The Rivarossi roof has to be shortened. Rivarossi cars a "longies". I think their diameter read the length over buffers as the overall body length. However, this gives me the opportunity the remove that terrible "band-aid" across the roof of a Rivarossi car where the access hatch should have been! I finish the car with a brass floor for excellent tracking and scratch built ends. This avoids trying the get the warp out of an ECW core kit (and saves about $10). Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ===================================================bubbles@visi.net wrote (in part): ... > I've been doing some messing around with some of the old Rivarossi > sleeping cars. And after looking at the pictures in both the > color guide books, MR's Oct 94 Broadway plans and the floor > plans from the PRR Passenger and Freight car diagram book > I've noticed some things you might be able to do with these cars. > > One thing is to make a more correct or different version of the > 10-6 sleepers. The 10-6 they (Rivarossi)make seems to follow the " Eagle" > series of cars. With part of the side from the Observation you > can make one of the other " Rapids " cars such as Cattawissa > Rapids. Also with some tinkering you might be able to build > one of the earlier 10-5 sleepers. > Also if you can get two 10-6 cars you might be able to make > one of the ACF type 21 roomette cars such as Zanesville Inn. I thought of > using two 10-6 cars because of the window spacing. > Then theres the prewar 18 roomettes. You might be able to make > one from two 12-5 duplex sleepers. Using the passageway side > of course and you would have to move the door on one side and such. > > Then for the little braver there is the other seven post war > observations. This would entail using double windows from another > car. Also with some playing around you might be able to build > the Diner part of a post war twin unit. from a 10-6 or parts > of the observation car. (the obs for more correct windows.) > > Theres also the Harbor cars...which could be made from parts of the > 10-6 and the observations. Also perhaps a post war 4-4-2 car. > This would be from what ever would work to get this car. But that > would entail a lot more cutting and filling and sanding...Perhaps > not worth the trouble. > > Anyone out there want to field this ? Remember its just a idea. > > Have fun everyone and have a safe holliday. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:12:32 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] bye-bye birdie and sleeping cheap Hank, I was done in by my spell checker. "I think their diameter read the length . . . " should have said: "I think their diemaker read the length . . . " Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:59:06 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] PRR E-3sd/E-5s/E-7s Kitbash Hello list, Now that my T-1 and E-6s are almost done, I'm considering my next engine project. I'd like to model either an E-3sd or E-5s of the 1940s (shortly before the last few were retired) or E-7s 8063 before she was cosmetically altered to resemble the 7002. Brass being out of the question financially, I plan on using a Bowser E-6s chassis and the Mantua PRR Atlantic boiler. I have a set of plans for the E-3 from a 1941 Model Railroader, and the Mantua boiler seems close enough to use as a starting point, except that the firebox extends to the very rear of the cab (ie: the engine is deckless). Has anyone done this conversion (I'd cheerfully follow in the footsteps of the more experienced)? Do any of you have suggestions or comments; they'd be most welcome. Thanks in advance Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:46:09 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Re: Address for Alco Products --Boundary_(ID_knSHqOVeHn/OihsO1fpXHw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel and the List, If you'd like to order Alco Products repower kits, you have several options. Firstly, Jerry sells them through his company, Desktop Solutions. Alco Products' address is 312 Hunter Forge Road Macungie, PA 18062 610 845 7301 You could also order the repower kits (at least for PRR engines) from Bowser; their number is 800 327 5126. I've installed the Alco Products kits in a Mantua Pacific (my grandfather loves the kitbashed CNJ G-4s that started out as a Mantua Pacific, but that is another story), a Bowser H-9s, a Bowser K-4s, a Bowser K-4s chassis for a Bachmann K-4s, and the new Bowser I-1sa, all in addition to my abuilding T-1. If your H-9s or E-6s has the boiler weight in the forward portion of the cavity, you may have a bit of grinding to do with a motor tool; I spent about 30 minutes with my Dremel so the flywheel/worm would fit. The other installations are drop in, except for the Bowser chassis/Bachmann boiler combination, which also required a bit of grinding. Anyway, now you can repower your steamers; good luck!!! Doug JOELPRR@aol.com wrote: > >By the way, the Alco Products repower kit I installed makes the engine a > >much smoother runner; I'd recommend it to anyone owning a Bowser T-1. > > Hi Doug, > > I have been trying to get in touch with Alco to repower my E6 and H9. I've > called twice and left a message for them to call me, but I have not received > a reply. Maybe I have a wrong number. Do you have a phone number or address > for them? > > Thanks, > Joel --Boundary_(ID_knSHqOVeHn/OihsO1fpXHw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Joel and the List,

If you'd like to order Alco Products repower kits, you have several options. Firstly, Jerry sells them through his company, Desktop Solutions.  Alco Products' address is
312 Hunter Forge Road
Macungie, PA 18062
610 845 7301

You could also order the repower kits (at least for PRR engines) from Bowser;
their number is

800 327 5126.

I've installed the Alco Products kits in a Mantua Pacific (my grandfather loves the  kitbashed CNJ G-4s that started out as a Mantua Pacific, but that is another story),
a Bowser H-9s, a Bowser K-4s, a Bowser K-4s chassis for a Bachmann K-4s, and the new Bowser I-1sa, all in addition to my abuilding T-1.  If your H-9s or E-6s has the boiler weight in the forward portion of the cavity, you may have a bit of grinding to do with a motor tool; I spent about 30 minutes with my Dremel so the flywheel/worm would fit.  The other installations are drop in, except for the Bowser chassis/Bachmann boiler combination, which also required a bit of grinding.

Anyway, now you can repower your steamers; good luck!!!

Doug

JOELPRR@aol.com wrote:

>By the way, the Alco Products repower kit I installed makes the engine a
>much smoother runner; I'd recommend it to anyone owning a Bowser T-1.

Hi Doug,

I have been trying to get in touch with Alco to repower my E6 and H9.  I've
called twice and left a message for them to call me, but I have not received
a reply.  Maybe I have a wrong number.  Do you have a phone number or address
for them?

Thanks,
Joel

--Boundary_(ID_knSHqOVeHn/OihsO1fpXHw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:56:32 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] news from Those Classic Trains Hello everyone, A quick note to let you know what is happening here: I have just come back from a meeting with the CPAs. They now have all the legal BS and are doing up the forms to submit to the banks / SBA. I go back to sign the last documents on the 16th, then it's up to the bankers. There is no absolute guarantee that this loan can be arranged. However, the CPAs state that the Plan looks very sound and well drawn up, the market studies are solid, product concept good, etc etc etc. In their words, if any plan can fly, this one will. Presuming all goes well, capitalization should be completed within 60 to 90 days. We're getting closer! My best to all, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Strafford Station Fire From: "Michael E. Allen" Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 21:21:49 EDT I realize that the station is historic but how in thunder can even SEPTA jack the repair price up to $4 million?? MEA ________________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Telephone 609-683-0356 Management Services Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen meallen@juno.com W.R Allen Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:56:36 EDT BigBeerBob@aol.com writes: >The fire was determined to be electrical; damages estimated at $4 >million. A >photo in the Philadelphia Inquirer shows a hole in the exterior wall >approx >2' square. Although I haven't checked it myself, a visit to >www.phillynews.com MAY have more info/photos... > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:24:06 -0500 (CDT)