Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA CONVENTION/ KEYSTONE (sorta long) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 99 06:37:36 -0400 From: Jerry On 6/30/99 8:48 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >As for the Keystone this time, well, what can a guy say? What, 64 pages, and >over 50 of them on a backwater of the Long Island?! And that's part ONE? >Hell, those lantern articles had me deep in thought about renewal. That's >the >bad side. The good side is that the Keystone comes out good and steady four >times a year, is of very high physical quality, and generally has articles >of >interest in every issue. Not to mention the fine artwork. Perhaps because >it's the main reason I belong to the society (and probably many others), I >feel the Keystone has to be kept to a high standard. And generally it is, >and >even mundane Pennsy is a whole lot better than no Pennsy. I, too, had this reaction to the new issue. In-depth articles of this nature are nice, but when that's all that is offered, the subscriber is left watching their mailbox for three more months hoping a "treat" will arrive. Most issues offer something of interest to me...but I have to say that this is one of the finest produced organizational magazines out there. Chuck Blardone does a fantastic job with it and I hope he will continue to do so. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] July 1, II Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are included? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:02:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II > > Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: > > At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > included? Presumably either Buffalo or Detroit? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] July 1 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:44:02 -0400 (EDT) A happy Canada Day (or, The Holiday Formerly Known As Dominion Day) to our friends from the Great White North. Clearly the PRR did not have track in Canada, but her cars surely ran there in interchange traffic. Where in Canada did the PRR have business offices? Did any places in Canada have scheduled or regular or arranged service, via ferry or otherwise? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Nelson" Subject: [PRR] Marion AC tower Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:22:53 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEC3C4.D363EC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone on the list know who the contractor is that is refered to in = June RAILPACE and in July TRAINS as having the tower in MArion, Ohio on = a hit list? Conrail donated the tower to Marion Union Station Assn. and plans are in = process to move it to MUSA property across the diamonds from where it = now stands. CSX has given us until Dec. 15, 1999 to complete the move. = Our concern is that one department of the railroad doesn't know what the = other is doing. The move will cost close to $38,000. AC tower protected the crossing of PRR and the Erie and NYC tracks and = also C&O and the Erie and NYC a bit West of the PRR . Please reply with any information you may have. Thanks, Rick Nelson, rcnelson@bright.net Luke 4:4 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEC3C4.D363EC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone on the list know who the = contractor is=20 that is refered to in June RAILPACE and in July TRAINS as having the = tower in=20 MArion, Ohio on a hit list?
 
Conrail donated the tower to Marion = Union Station=20 Assn. and plans are in process to move it to MUSA property across the = diamonds=20 from where it now stands. CSX has given us until Dec. 15, 1999 to = complete the=20 move.  Our concern is that one department of the railroad doesn't = know what=20 the other is doing.  The move will cost close to = $38,000.
 
AC tower protected the crossing = of  PRR and=20 the Erie and NYC tracks and also C&O and the Erie and NYC a bit West = of the=20 PRR .
 
Please reply with any information you = may=20 have.
 
Thanks,
Rick Nelson,  rcnelson@bright.net
 
 
 
Luke 4:4
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEC3C4.D363EC20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:50:53 -0700 Simple...Detroit, Michigan. Pennsy went there on a little-known line up from Toledo and had a small yard in (if I remember rightly) Allen Park. Canada is just across the river. Bill Daniels (who grew up in Detroit) -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:08 AM Subject: [PRR] July 1, II > >Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: > > At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > included? > >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:27:13 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR in Canada (was July 1) The 1923 CT1000 describes a route (trackage rights, I assume) into Canada from Buffalo. Used DL&W tracks to reach a yard (Black Rock Yard?). Will check this evening. Will also check in the 1945 CT1000 to see if it's listed there. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ---Mark Bej wrote: > > A happy Canada Day (or, The Holiday Formerly Known As Dominion Day) to our > friends from the Great White North. > > Clearly the PRR did not have track in Canada, but her cars surely ran there > in interchange traffic. > > Where in Canada did the PRR have business offices? Did any places in Canada > have scheduled or regular or arranged service, via ferry or otherwise? > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Nelson" Subject: [PRR] MarionAC tower Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:30:28 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEC3C5.E20059C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know who the contactor is taht TRAINS and RAILPACE report as = having Marion Ohio AC tower on a hit list? Conrail donated the tower to Marion Union Station Assn and plans are = nearly complete for moving it to MUSA property. =20 CSX has given us until 12/15/99 to make the move that will cost close to = $38,000. We are concerned that someone at the railroad doesn't know what is going = on in another department and would like to communicate directly with the = contractor involved. AC tower controled the crossing or the PRR Sandusky Branch over the Erie = and NYC lines. Thanaks Rick Nelson, rcnelson@bright.net Luke 4:4 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEC3C5.E20059C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone know who the contactor is = taht TRAINS=20 and RAILPACE report as having Marion Ohio AC tower on a hit = list?
 
Conrail donated the tower to Marion = Union Station=20 Assn and plans are nearly complete for moving it to MUSA = property.
   
CSX has given us until 12/15/99 to make = the move=20 that will cost close to $38,000.
 
We are concerned that someone at the = railroad=20 doesn't know what is going on in another department and would like to=20 communicate directly with the contractor involved.
 
AC tower controled the crossing or the = PRR Sandusky=20 Branch over the Erie and NYC lines.
 
Thanaks
Rick Nelson,   rcnelson@bright.net
 
 
 
Luke 4:4
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEC3C5.E20059C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackage- Michigan. List, I suppose if anyone had a system map showing the trackage then you will see how far up north the Pennsy did run. I don't have one but I have Pennsy Power 1 and they show a small system map with connections on age 8-9. It shows the PRR could reach as far north in Michigan at Mackinaw City. In New York the Pennsy could reach Sodus Point which is farther north than Buffalo. Like I said, I don't know if these are PRR Trackage or connctions with other roads. Need help on that! .....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:20:02 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II I would have to say Buffalo would be the closest, given that Canada is only across the Niagara River from here. The river is about 200 yards wide. I am not familiar with PRR operations in Michigan so this is just a guess on my part. It would have to be either Buffalo or Detroit. On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Mark Bej wrote: > >Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: > > At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > included? > >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:57:23 -0700 Yes...this is (was) the old Mackinac line (former GR&I) that went up the west coast of Michigan through Cadillac to Mackinac City. A branch left Cadillac and went to Lake City...the original Cadillac and Lake City. I once rode this line back in the late '60's. Incidentally, this was Shay country...home of Epharam Shay. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, List, Did not the Pennsy go into Cadilac, Michigan? I have a photo some where in my collection showing a K? in Cadilac. Maybe it was on someone else's trackage. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Altoona Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:47:57 -0400 Jerry, Some of us are bringing friends that are not part of PRR-talk, can they attend the extra sessions and the dinner, if they make reservations? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, List, Did not the Pennsy go into Cadilac, Michigan? I have a photo some where in my collection showing a K? in Cadilac. Maybe it was on someone else's trackage. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:47:38 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] progress on "The Limited" Hello everyone, A progress report on "The Limited". I am just now uploading a major topic group on the Florida Trade. This is running a bit behind schedule, but I hope to have the last of about 15 pages uploaded over the holiday weekend. I hope you will drop in and check it out. Being just now completed (kinda) it needs to be proofread and there is still plenty of room for additions and notes. If you see anything that needs to be added/corrected, please let me know. Some other goodies this month: * a new community service: Classified Ads. These are free for any non commercial buying/selling/swaping, event announcements, info wanted, etc. There is a submission form that can be accessed from the index page. * there are also a number of illustration additions for Milwaukee, L & N, Santa Fe, as well as several stations and depots. * a new Consumer Survey! (Gawd!) The results of the last are very helpful and this one asks some interesting what-if questions about your modeling activities. Check it out! * a progress report on the capitalization effort. "Ah, there's good news tonight!" * also- Psycho has just received the prestigious "Pflugner Award". Ya has ta see it to believe it. While you are at it, please let me know your thoughts about the new graphic treatment on the Index page. Thanks to all, and have a happy Holiday! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:37:17 -0400 I will vote for Flat Rock Yard in Buffalo just across the Niagara River from Canada. I would not be surprised if a Pennsy unit or two didn't venture across the bridge when the CN broke down or to take a transfer freight over there. ---------- > From: Bill Daniels > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II > Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 2:50 PM > > Simple...Detroit, Michigan. Pennsy went there on a little-known line up from > Toledo and had a small yard in (if I remember rightly) Allen Park. Canada is > just across the river. > > Bill Daniels (who grew up in Detroit) > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Bej > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:08 AM > Subject: [PRR] July 1, II > > > > > >Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: > > > > At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > > included? > > > >-- > >Mark > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:24:08 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Daniels Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:57 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trackage -Michigan, Did not the Pennsy go into Cadilac, Michigan? I have a photo some where in my collection showing a K? in Cadilac. Maybe it was on someone else's trackage. Gary ------------------------------------------ 1870 Ft Wayne to Grand Rapids 1868 Grand Rapids to Cedar Springs 1869 Cedar Springs to Morely 1870 Morley to Paris 1871 Paris to Cadillac 1872 Cadillac to Fife Lake 1873 Fife lake to Petrosky 1876 Petrosky to Bay View 1882 Bay View to Mackinaw All built by GR&I RR Co. (3d) This was the backbone of the GR&I every thing else was branches. Nothing beyond Ft. Wayne. GR&I became affiliated with the PRR on September 30, 1869 when PRR (through PFW&C) acquired a majority of the GR&I stock (deposited in trust) by guaranteeing half of a $8.0 million bond issue. Source: C&C 1945 PRR Report, Volume III - Lines West, pages 309,310. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:00:07 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Canada (was July 1) The 1953 ORER (reprint) shows the PRR interchanging with: Canadian National @ Black Rock NY Canadian National @ Detroit via GTW Canadian Pacific @ Detroit via Wabash Pennsylvania Ontario Transportation Co @Ashtabula Harbor, O (via Port Burwell ONT. and vice versa - "The Pennsylvania - Ontario Transportation Co. Operates the Car Ferry SS "Ashtabula" [wasn't this in a recent Keystone?] across Lake Erie between Ashtabula Harbor, Ohio and Port Burwell, Ontario, in connection with the Pennsylvania Railroad Co, and the Canadian Pacific Railway Co., for the transportation of freight (Carloads) only. Distance 47 miles. General Offices, Rockefeller Bldg., Cleveland 13,O. Apr., 1944." -Page 76 of the same ORER -Bob Vogel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Altoona Date: Thu, 1 Jul 99 19:33:44 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/1/99 5:47 PM, Alan Buchan (abbuchan@familyconnect.net) wrote: >Some of us are bringing friends that are not part of PRR-talk, can they >attend the extra sessions and the dinner, if they make reservations? Absolutely...on the dinner. However, session attendees are highly encouraged to be members of the (national) PRRT&HS. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trackage- Michigan. Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:28:12 -0700 Gary; Both of these lines were PRR proper lines...the Michigan line up the western part of Michigan was ex-Grand Rapids and Indiana, and I believe the line to Sodus Point was ex-Northern Central (check out the book on the Elmira Branch...). I don't know of any published history of the GR&I. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:09 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackage- Michigan. List, I suppose if anyone had a system map showing the trackage then you will see how far up north the Pennsy did run. I don't have one but I have Pennsy Power 1 and they show a small system map with connections on age 8-9. It shows the PRR could reach as far north in Michigan at Mackinaw City. In New York the Pennsy could reach Sodus Point which is farther north than Buffalo. Like I said, I don't know if these are PRR Trackage or connctions with other roads. Need help on that! .....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:39:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: July 1, I & II Happy Dominio..er, Canada Day In a message dated 7/1/99 1:55:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Where in Canada did the PRR have business offices? Did any places in Canada have scheduled or regular or arranged service, via ferry or otherwise? >> Ferry from Ashtabula to CN at Port Burwell, Ont. Story in a 1997 or 1998 Keystone << At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are included? >> Detroit, Mich., via Detroit River tubes to Windsor is close but no ceegar. The connection there is by interchange only from drop off yards on the Detroit side. Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. Tom V., In a message dated 7/1/99 1:55:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Where in Canada did the PRR have business offices? Did any places in Canada have scheduled or regular or arranged service, via ferry or otherwise? >> Ferry from Ashtabula to CN at Port Burwell, Ont. Story in a 1997 or 1998 Keystone << At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are included? >> Detroit, Mich., via Detroit River tubes to Windsor is close but no ceegar. The connection there is by interchange only from drop off yards on the Detroit side. Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. Tom V., ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 04:08:53 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: July 1, I & II Happy Dominio..er, Canada Day > Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., > via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. > > Tom V., > OL&WRR? Maybe the O is really a D? Sorry Mark. It got busy last night and I didn't get to the CT1000. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:00:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] July 1, II bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Another interesting set of trivia questions would be: At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are included? >> Although PRR didn't have tracks in Canada, they did operate engines "north" (or in the case of Buffalo "west") of the border. The book "PRR - Standard Railroad of the World" has some pictures of ALCOs operating in Fort Erie starting on page 98. As the book indicates, Detroit also was a main exchange point. In going to some train shows in the Niagara Fall/Hamilton/Toronto area, I was surprised at how may modelers has at least a few PRR locomotives on their layout. They must have made an impression. I've also heard stories of I1s and L1s operating in Fort Erie before the mid-50s. Rick Siller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: July 1, I & II Happy Dominio..er, Canada Day Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Tom Vondruska wins the "best amalgamation of all previous 'Subject' lines into one" contest. Tom, if you've never learned APL, you should. :-) (APL = A Programming Language, a computer programming language noted for its brevity - but horribly dense - syntax). > Subject: [PRR] Re: July 1, I & II Happy Dominio..er, Canada Day LINESWEST@aol.com scribit: > << At what point did the PRR approach Canada most closely on > its own trackage? And if trackage/haulage rights are > included? > >> It's amazing how much writing one little question can stimulate. Almost as much as the annual April Fools post. :-) As to proximity to Canada, GR&I is a nice thought, and is unquestionably the northernmost point of the PRR geographically. But the oft-forgotten Upper Peninsula is being forgotten again. Canada is actually quite some distance away by land, as one must cross the hind-quarters of the "fleeing rabbit" of the UP to get to "Soo" St. Marie. Sodus Point appears to be farthest north in Lines East territory, with Rochester placing, and for show, Buffalo *on the WNY&P*. > Detroit, Mich., via Detroit River tubes to Windsor is close but no ceegar. > The connection there is by interchange only from drop off yards on the > Detroit side. > Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., > via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. So the candidates for "closest to Canada" are: 1. Buffalo 2. Detroit 3. Ashtabula ferry. Here's what we have so far: > From: alcoman > I would have to say Buffalo would be the closest, given that Canada is > only across the Niagara River from here. The river is about 200 yards wide. > From: "Bill Daniels" > Simple...Detroit, Michigan. Pennsy went there on a little-known line up from > Toledo and had a small yard in (if I remember rightly) Allen Park. Canada is > just across the river. > From: robert netzlof > The 1923 CT1000 describes a route (trackage rights, I assume) into Canada > from Buffalo. Used DL&W tracks to reach a yard (Black Rock Yard?). Will > check this evening. Will also check in the 1945 CT1000 to see if it's > listed there. > From: "R. Vogel" > The 1953 ORER (reprint) shows the PRR interchanging with: > Canadian National @ Black Rock NY > Canadian National @ Detroit via GTW > Canadian Pacific @ Detroit via Wabash > Pennsylvania Ontario Transportation Co @Ashtabula Harbor, O (via Port > Burwell ONT. and vice versa - > "The Pennsylvania - Ontario Transportation Co. Operates the Car Ferry > SS "Ashtabula" > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > > Did any places in Canada have scheduled or regular or arranged service, > > via ferry or otherwise? > Ferry from Ashtabula to CN at Port Burwell, Ont. Story in a 1997 or 1998 > Keystone > > Only direct land connection is between Buffalo, NY, and Fort Niagara, Ont., > via trackage rights on a road a 1923 system map calls the OL&WRR. As it turns out, there are several questions here. 1. Was there "arranged service"? Most certainly, via the ferry to Port Burwell. Interestingly, judging from the map in Dan Cupper's book, Port Burwell appears to be nowheresville, railroad-wise. But also via trains BF-3, BF-5, BF-7. See the freight train schedules here on my web site, though the nature of the connection is not well specified there. As to Detroit, the 1960 schedules don't mention any specific service, suggesting that PRR was at the mercy of GTW and WAB interchange. 2. Where did the PRR most closely approach Canada on its own trackage? Even here, the question can be interpreted two ways! As the crow flies, or via railroads (the distance a boxcar would have to travel)? In Detroit, the PRR's closest approach to downtown Detroit, and along with this to Canada, would be at the Ecorse Jct / Forman St Wye area, where it interchanged to GTW and WAB. Canada is "right across the river", probably a mile or less, but a boxcar could not travel directly east. Probably the shortest travel distance would be NE to the GTW, then E along the MC to the Detroit River tunnels. Where were the (N&W; thus I assume WAB?) car floats, and how did one get there by rail? I am entirely unfamiliar with the layout in Buffalo and cannot comment. 3. On trackage rights, Fort Erie is _in_ Canada and thus wins. Do we count the ferry as the equivalent of trackage rights, and is Fort Erie tied with Port Burwell? Hmm... -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:50:56 -0400 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Sunset 3rd Rail B-1 I noticed a new engine on the Sunset web page besides the 3rd Rail N-1s. Sunset is going to make the B-1 in O scale. They come in pairs with one unit powered and the other containing a sound. However, the 2 rail version will have both units powered. I think the cost around $700. Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR T-1 Plate LIVES!!!! List, As a lot of you may have seen today on eBay, that T-1 Keystone plate is back for a third time. First time it didn't meet the reserve. Second time it met the reserve at $8,000.00. I was almot 100% sure the winning bidder, "larrygre???, would not come through and pay for it. I was correct! Out of the winning bids this guy has (12) he also has 4 -feedbacks. Pretty bad ratio in my opinion.. He cost me some items and money in the past and I will not honor his bids in my auctions if he were to bid on any of my items. I recommend avoiding him all together if you are a seller of PRR items on eBay.. Now maybe we will see what this T-1 Plate is really worth to someone......... Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada (was July 1) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:24:59 -0400 Hi All! I'm not aware of any Pennsy trackage or trackage rights that actually entered Canada, although the Michigan Central / NYC / PC/ Conrail did operate their own trackage connecting Detroit to Buffalo through SW Ontario. The railway was called the Canada Southern (CASO). So the closest I'm aware of to PRR running here is the Penn Central. Other US railroads that operated / operate in Canada are Wabash, C&O, Chessie System, CSX, NS (I see NS trains on CN rails every day) D&H (ran into Montreal in pre-CP-ownership days) GN/BNSF (into British Columbia) Amtrak (runs several daily trains) Conrail (in addition to the CASO, Conrail operated a transfer into CP Rail's Windsor yard - not sure if they still do) Boston and Maine also ran passenger service into Montreal using E-Units, which is the only reason CP bought their 3 E-8's (pool power). So, there are lots of examples of US roads in Canada, but none of the Pennsy that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean it didn't happen; just that I've never heard of it. Regards! Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:37:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day! Hi Guys, Can someone enlighten me as to the type of sand, used to enhance traction of the driving wheels, and its source? It appears (to me) to be a fine grained, white, beach sand. But, that source doesn't seem to be plausible; as certainly, folks would be up-in-arms if the railroads were to strip their beaches. Anyone know? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:19:32 -0700 Can anyone provide an update on this fire? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Volkmer's newest Book! List, I just heard about the recent release of Bill's newest book. I myself havn't yet seen it and don't know what the title is, but from what I here from the Pittsburgh Street Car fans here in the Pittsburgh area, this is a must have book because of all the color photos of the Street Cars from this area. I can't wait to see it!. To coincide with that new Book I am going to list another Model Photo today. This model pertains to the Pittsburgh Railways Streetcars. Below you will see a link to view these models. The large one is an O scale Corgi PCC and the smaller one is an HO scale Pittsburgh Railways Car. This was a brass import from MTS. I painted both of these for customers in the Pittsburgh area. In fact the O scale Corgi PCC was requested by the Port Authority as a gift they were giving to a 100 year old retired Street Car operator. I heard he was thrilled!!! Again, check this book out if you are a street car fan of an kind......Gary http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/patpccs.jpg http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:03:09 -0700 That's good. Let me be more specific. Can anyone provide an update on the fire _damage_? Any indication whether any of the building can be salvaged? > ---------- > From: Bill Volkmer[SMTP:herzog1@gate.net] > Reply To: herzog@icanect.net > Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 11:40 AM > To: John Cooper; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire > > It is out! > > ---------- > > From: John Cooper > > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire > > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 1:19 PM > > > > Can anyone provide an update on this fire? > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:40:46 -0400 It is out! ---------- > From: John Cooper > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Strafford, PA fire > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 1:19 PM > > Can anyone provide an update on this fire? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:20:16 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day! Dear George and the List There are sand pits and sand mines much like gravel operations. There are lots of places in the Northeast that during post glacial periods were "beachfront property" You are correct that it is usually the white beach type (yellow actually) that is used most commonly. At the New York and Lake Erie we use Black Betty (better known to body shops and sandblasters) it is a ground slag material that isnt affected by moisture the way that the white sand does. On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: >Hi Guys, > >Can someone enlighten me as to the type of sand, used to enhance traction of >the driving wheels, and its source? It appears (to me) to be a fine grained, >white, beach sand. But, that source doesn't seem to be plausible; as >certainly, folks would be up-in-arms if the railroads were to strip their >beaches. Anyone know? > >Thanks, >George > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 19:28:45 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] [HO] Walthers Passenger Cars I noticed on Walthers web page they are reintroducing their Oscar & Piker cars in plastic. The models will feature separate grabs and interiors. While these models are of little interest to the PRR modeler, I wonder if they are going to do any other of their old passenger cars, most significantly, the Pullmans. I know Branchline has announced Pullman cars, and any model they produce would blow Walthers out of the water quality wise. Any chance Walthers could beat them to the punch? Branchlines box cars are way behind and I think they are going to do the reefers before the Pullmans. Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:40:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada (was July 1) According to the 1946 annual report the PRR had trackage rights from Buffalo to Bridgeburg, Ont. via Grand Trunk Ry. a distance of 1.79 miles and from Bridgeburg Ont to the end of Victoria Yard, Ont. via Michigan Central a distance of 1.2 miles. This would seem to indicated that the PRR operated a total of 1.99 miles, or there about, of track in Canada. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Logansport-area maps Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:28:15 -0400 (EDT) A bunch of Logansport-area maps, lent to me by Steve Long, have been scanned, edited, and are on the web for your viewing pleasure. They are at: http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_col_log_main.html and http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_col_log_branch.html The Canton District is nearly complete, just missing one map that will be up soon. See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_tolj_tol_main.html and http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_tolj_tol_branch.html and http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_col_san_main.html More from the Philly Division will be added soon, and Chicago will be next. The links above are hand-typed, so if they are incorrect, mea culpa. The main page is, of course, http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:23:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day! In a message dated 7/2/99 1:15:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Eichhorn@aol.com writes: << Can someone enlighten me as to the type of sand, used to enhance traction of the driving wheels, and its source? It appears (to me) to be a fine grained, white, beach sand. But, that source doesn't seem to be plausible; as certainly, folks would be up-in-arms if the railroads were to strip their beaches. Anyone know? Thanks, George >> Around Dayton, Ohio, there's two types of strip mining operations, Limestone quarries and aggregate mines, but we lump them all together with the pejorative "Gravel Pits." Since much of the Limestone in this area is a variety called brassfield and is high in magnesium, its the ideal raw material to cook into Portland cement. There were some quarries along the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Norther/Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati which quarried limestone blocks for build but I know of none currently in production. Dayton is built atop the once mighty Teays River which before the last ice age drained the Great Lakes. Its massive channel and much of its riverine valley was buried under vast sand and gravel beds deposited by the advance of the glaciers. Gravel pit operators sort the aggregate into a wide variety of gravel and sand with particle size ranging from a number of crushed or riverine grades larger than pea gravel down to the finest grains of sand. The sand was dried and stored in moisture free bins for use in the locomotives. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David William Gnuse Subject: [PRR] reservations for Railfest Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 02:23:23 -0400 Does anyone know of a hotel/motel near the tracks for a reasonable rate in Altoona. I am not looking for something in a bad neighborhood, and am not looking for something in the "sticks". David --------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Gnuse dgnuse@erols.com kickitup@railfan.net Fractal Page Railfan Page www.erols.com/dgnuse kickitup.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 00:03:56 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada I'm not exactly sure how to read this publication but: All the following information is from the "Record of Transportation Lines owned and operated by, and associated in interest with, The Pennsylvania Railroad Company. Compiled from official data on file in office of Chief Engineer, at Philadelphia. For the year ending December 31, 1948" Printed 1948. a table labeled "Embracing the operated lines of all its transportation companies arranged according to states" List includes 2.45 miles in Canada. a table labeled "Trackage Rights Arranged according to states" List includes 2.45 miles of track in Canada on two lines. Line 25 includes 1.25 miles in Canada and .54 in New York Line 35 includes 1.20 miles in Canada and .81 in Michigan In the Grand Summary the list "Trackage Rights by States" the list includes: 2.45 miles of First Track, 1.14 Miles of Second Track and 9.12 miles of "CO's Sidings" for a total of 12.71 miles of track. It has a reference to the National Bridge in Buffalo N.Y. and access to Bridgeburg Ont., Canada to the end of Victoria Yard. The trackage rights are held by the WPA&NY RY The above is from the Central Region Trackage Rights chart, In the Western Region, I can't find any mention of a line in Canada. I'm not familiar with Michigan at all ( sorry to all the Lines West and Michigan folks ), but if someone could direct me as to the city, I may be able to find a reference point. I have not check any of this information against the 1945 CT1000. Cos wsbcos.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:22:11 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Wayne S. Betty Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 12:04 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada Follow up to Wayne's discovery: C&C 1945 PRR report shows trackage rights on Michigan Central RR - Bridgeburg, Ont. to end of Victoria Yard, Ont. under agreement dated June 1, 1916, effective same date, to Western New York and Pennsylvania Railway Co., 1.20 miles. WNY&P Ry Co. was part of Lines East, there being several ownership entities PRR Proper, Lines East, Lines West, and Affiliated Companies. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:29:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Kitbashing gondulas I know there are a couple of articles floating about showing the conversion of ConCor's 54' and 52'-6" mil gons to PRR gons. How about the 52'-6" mill gon that P2K has out now, can or has anyone been able to convert one of those to anything that resembles a PRR gon? Thanks, Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:09:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] reservations for Railfest Hi to Dave and the list; There are NO hotel/motel accommodations at trackside in the Altoona area except for Station Inn at Cresson; I suspect they are already fully booked. The next closest would be at Huntingdon, Pa., 38 miles east on U.S.22. The Holiday Inn Jr is approx 2 blocks from mainline at the former PRR station. No hotels at Tyrone, Pa. All motel accommodations in the Altoona area are on the Pleasant Valley Blvd/Plank Road strip where all the retail shopping,restaurants, mall are located. Pleasant Valley Blvd and Plank Road are one and the same by name. David Seidel Altoona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Standardization Trivia Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 01:50:08 -0700 The PRR advertised and practiced the concept of standardization. I was looking through some old data and found a listing of standardized smokebox fronts from PRR steam. The most common size was the 82" diameter which was used on 2529 locos of 19 classes and 6 wheel arrangements. I would imagine most of you could guess what the classes were. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 19:34:34 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada I had the chance today to sit down and read the Western Region operated lines and trackage rights. The trackage was more than likely in the Northwestern Division with both the Grand Rapids Division and Toledo Division with trackage in Mich. Detroit was in the Toledo Division. I don't find any reference to anything going to Canada. An interesting find was that the PRR itself had trackage rights over Grand Trunk Railway into Milwaukee Wisconsin. Cos wsbcos.com Mark Bej wrote: > > The above is from the Central Region Trackage Rights chart, > > In the Western Region, I can't find any mention of a line in Canada. I'm not > > familiar with Michigan at all ( sorry to all the Lines West and Michigan folks > > ), but if someone could direct me as to the city, I may be able to find a > > reference point. > > I have not checked any of this information against the 1945 CT1000. > > The Mich. trackage rights would be within the city of Detroit and into > the Ontario city of Windsor. I.e., if lower Michigan is a hand, > 1/3 of the way from the bottom up the thumb. > > -- > Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Smokebox fronts Gene, list, The 82" smokebox fronts were assigned to the following loco classes. C1, E6, G5, H8, H8a, H8b, H8c, H8s, H8sa, H8sb, H8sc, H9, H9s, H9sa, H9sc, H10s, K4s, K4sa, and L1s. I cheated, the info comes from THE KEYSTONE, Vol.2 No. 4 Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:19:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada In a message dated 7/3/99 10:07:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wsbcos@cris.com writes: << An interesting find was that the PRR itself had trackage rights over Grand Trunk Railway into Milwaukee Wisconsin. >> The connection was via ferry from Muskegon, Mich. at the end of a GR&I Branch. I believe this also was the subject of a recent article, I believe it was in a 1998 Mainline Modeler written by a GTW employee exercising trackage rights on the GR&I. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 00:07:08 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] bye-bye birdie and sleeping cheap Hi all... First the bye-bye birdie stuff....This evening i caught the tail end of ABC's version of the musical "Bye - Bye Birdie. in the movie a train stops at the station and picks up two of caractors from the movie. Anyway....I took notice of the train. (what railfan would'nt ?) Any..way....The engine was a Alco RSD type. painting in PRR colors and...was numbered either 591 or 561. It was very close as far as paint jobs go...but had a dang keystone under the number on the cab. Then there was the passenger car. This appeared to be a Heavyweight Observation also painted in PRR colors and lettering...The stripes were kinda wide...It was numbered 1616 ? and there was a keystone at the center of the car. Anyone know about this equipment ? Ok now that we have Hollywood behind us.... I've been doing some messing around with some of the old Rivarossi sleeping cars. And after looking at the pictures in both the color guide books, MR's Oct 94 Broadway plans and the floor plans from the PRR Passenger and Freight car diagram book I've noticed some things you might be able to do with these cars. (Ok i know that Eastern Car works has their car sides...But hey if you don't mind cutting cars up and putting them back together and if you can get used or damaged car cheap , Then this is an alternative idea.) One thing is to make a more correct or different version of the 10-6 sleepers. The 10-6 they (Rivarossi)make seems to follow the " Eagle" series of cars. With part of the side from the Observation you can make one of the other " Rapids " cars such as Cattawissa Rapids. Also with some tinkering you might be able to build one of the earlier 10-5 sleepers. Also if you can get two 10-6 cars you might be able to make one of the ACF type 21 roomette cars such as Zanesville Inn. I thought of using two 10-6 cars because of the window spacing. Then theres the prewar 18 roomettes. You might be able to make one from two 12-5 duplex sleepers. Using the passageway side of course and you would have to move the door on one side and such. Then for the little braver there is the other seven post war observations. This would entail using double windows from another car. Also with some playing around you might be able to build the Diner part of a post war twin unit. from a 10-6 or parts of the observation car. (the obs for more correct windows.) Theres also the Harbor cars...which could be made from parts of the 10-6 and the observations. Also perhaps a post war 4-4-2 car. This would be from what ever would work to get this car. But that would entail a lot more cutting and filling and sanding...Perhaps not worth the trouble. Anyone out there want to field this ? Remember its just a idea. Have fun everyone and have a safe holliday. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:28:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Smokebox fronts In a message dated 7/3/99 10:08:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Gene, list, The 82" smokebox fronts were assigned to the following loco classes. C1, E6, G5, H8, H8a, H8b, H8c, H8s, H8sa, H8sb, H8sc, H9, H9s, H9sa, H9sc, H10s, K4s, K4sa, and L1s. I cheated, the info comes from THE KEYSTONE, Vol.2 No. 4 Gary >> Slick. That's an early enough issue that none of us have it. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] X29A question Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:14:19 +0100 Hello again, A friend of mine has recently acquired a brass X28 boxcar (unknown source) and has come up against a problem. He has managed to convert it to the single door X28A version as rebuilt from 1933 but is stuck with the ends. The model has 4.3.1 dreadnaught ends and while we know X28's had plain ends and some received corrugated ends we are not sure about the correctness of the dreadnaughts. Any offers from the freight car experts in the group? Thanks, John H. Wright Note: change in e-mail address. Website still at original address: www.jhwright.demon.co.uk for the time being. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAJK4@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:27:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:52:27 -0700 Walt: Pennsy Power II has some...none that I know of in PPIII. There are other print sources, but I don't know of any offhand. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 21:20:27 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos WAJK4@aol.com wrote: > > Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse > Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a > diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. The 1997 book "Train Master -- The Most Useful Locomotive Ever Built," by Diesel Era with David R. Sweetland, is still in print: 112 pages, perfect bound, covers all 10 original owners of the H24-66 model, plus the H16-66 junior Train Master. Color & black & white photos. ISBN 1-881411-13-3, LofC # 97-060477. If you can't find a copy at a local bookstore or hobby shop, call the publisher, Withers Publishing, direct at 717-896-3173. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 23:27:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Remember, the PRR purchased only six H-24-66 Trainmasters and all six performed yard, hump and transfer duties in and around Columbus, heart of the Panhandle. Tom V.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:47:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > Remember, the PRR purchased only six H-24-66 Trainmasters and all six > performed yard, hump and transfer duties in and around Columbus, heart of the > Panhandle. I'm looking at 2 in Johnstown (Conemaugh, actually) on page 78 of Pennsy Diesel Years 3. I'm almost certain I've seen another shot of them there. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:47:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > Remember, the PRR purchased only six H-24-66 Trainmasters and all six > performed yard, hump and transfer duties in and around Columbus, heart of the > Panhandle. I'm looking at 2 in Johnstown (Conemaugh, actually) on page 78 of Pennsy Diesel Years 3. I'm almost certain I've seen another shot of them there. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:10:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy in Canada (was July 1) In a message dated 7/2/99 5:06:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SUVCWORR@AOL.COM writes: << According to the 1946 annual report the PRR had trackage rights from Buffalo to Bridgeburg, Ont. via Grand Trunk Ry. a distance of 1.79 miles and from Bridgeburg Ont to the end of Victoria Yard, Ont. via Michigan Central a distance of 1.2 miles. This would seem to indicated that the PRR operated a total of 1.99 miles, or there about, of track in Canada. Rich Orr >> Rich, That's astounding -- it's even less than the 3 miles of track the PRR owned in Kentucky. Of course, until 1865, Kentucky was part of the United States. Once the Civil War was lost, Kentucky was rumored to have joined the Confederacy . Or do only British Commonwealth members apply here? Rick Tipton Living south of the River at Louisville. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:32:19 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] T-1 lettering and appropriate decals Hello list, My Bowser T-1 will soon be ready for paint and decals. While inaccurate, I've decided upon Polly Scale's grimy black for the main color; it shows up well in photos and makes appreciating all that work much easier (also, I avoid the whole DGLE controversy). I want to model the 5524 (because she's the last Altoona-built steam engine) as she appeared in 1950. My question is: Did the T-1s retain their fancy striping in 1950, or did they receive the regular tender lettering by this time? I've been looking through my PRR books, and most show the T-1s up until about 1947-48 (when the definitely had stripes), or in scrap lines in 1952-53 (when they appear not to have stripes). By the way, the Alco Products repower kit I installed makes the engine a much smoother runner; I'd recommend it to anyone owning a Bowser T-1. Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:23:43 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos --Boundary_(ID_yMUNS1ogJnecHiH5RcMeqA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, Pictures of the PRR Trainmasters can be found in Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol 1, (and I'm sure the rest of the series, but that's all I have in my possession now), and in Staufer's Pennsy Power III, starting on page 327. Pennsy Power II has photographs, too, but I don't own a copy. Morning Sun's book on the Trainmaster may also come in handy for you. WAJK4@aol.com wrote: > Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse > Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a > diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. > > Walt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_yMUNS1ogJnecHiH5RcMeqA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,

Pictures of the PRR Trainmasters can be found in Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol 1, (and I'm sure the rest of the series, but that's all I have in my possession now), and in Staufer's Pennsy Power III, starting on page 327.  Pennsy Power II has photographs, too, but I don't own a copy.  Morning Sun's book on the Trainmaster may also come in handy for you.

WAJK4@aol.com wrote:

Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse
Trainmaster on the web or in a book.  I have had no luck other than finding a
diagram of it on the web.  Thanks for your help.

Walt

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--Boundary_(ID_yMUNS1ogJnecHiH5RcMeqA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:51:08 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Walt You might want to check out http://www.northeast.railfan.net/railphotos.html Clint Chamberlin has a very extensive F-M picture archive located there. Hope this helps you out!! On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Dan Cupper wrote: >WAJK4@aol.com wrote: >> >> Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse >> Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a >> diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. > > > >The 1997 book "Train Master -- The Most Useful Locomotive Ever Built," >by Diesel Era with David R. Sweetland, is still in print: 112 pages, >perfect bound, covers all 10 original owners of the H24-66 model, plus >the H16-66 junior Train Master. Color & black & white photos. ISBN >1-881411-13-3, LofC # 97-060477. If you can't find a copy at a local >bookstore or hobby shop, call the publisher, Withers Publishing, direct >at 717-896-3173. > >Dan Cupper > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 lettering and appropriate decals Doug, List, Thats a good question. Never heard of that one and never paid attention to that detail. Most T-1s were gone by 1953 era and you seen photos with the striped tenders in 1947 era, so my guees is they probably retained them. They may have deteriorated so you could not seem them but I would imagine underneeth all the grime they were still there. I will look into my collection of photos to see what I can come up with. As to the color of your Bowser T1. It may be wrong but it is YOUR engine and you have the right to paint it the way you like. If you weather it, anyone that sees it probably won't notice the difference anyway. For decals I recommend the new ones Bowser made for the new release T1. The stripes are applied in one whole piece. And the decal film hides nicely when glossed or dulcoated..........Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:01:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos In a message dated 7/5/99 7:33:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << > Remember, the PRR purchased only six H-24-66 Trainmasters and all six > performed yard, hump and transfer duties in and around Columbus, heart of the > Panhandle. I'm looking at 2 in Johnstown (Conemaugh, actually) on page 78 of Pennsy Diesel Years 3. I'm almost certain I've seen another shot of them there. >> There is also some evidence that one or two wandered down to Cincinnati. However, I have never been able to completely confirm or deny this. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:18:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR 1968 In a message dated 7/5/99 12:10:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cdjhyoung@yahoo.com writes: << A short query that may invoke a long response. I notice your signature shows you are modeling Pennsy in '68. What brought you to that era? I ask because I find myself working on two project railroads, my home project is C&O 1969, my club's operation based layout is Wabash in 1964. Each was chosen for some rather limiting and arbitrary reasons. What framed your choice? John Young (you know what I'm modeling) >> Hi John, At this point, I could be a coward and say that I don't know. But actually, I remember a few answers (remember, you asked for this): 1. Not to be pedantic, but the old "oh, I model between 1959 and 1968" approach is not for me. I like the idea of modeling a particular time on the prototype. For me, that time is June 1968. Actually, it was a really horrible time for America, but it was an interesting time on the railroad. Rail traffic was booming that year, and no one could predict the disaster in PC's future (same thing that makes TITANIC a great story). 2. Diesel models were cheaper, better running, and more durable than steam. They still are (and I have over 100 units). 3. 1966-68 is a "sweet spot" in terms of variety of old and new diesel models for PRR. This is true for number of prototype diesel models, and again for models available in HO. I can show you the graphs -- variety is at an all-time high in diesel history. 4. 1968 covers Pennsy rolling stock right to the end, including all the interesting cars built by vendors in the 60's, especially those for auto parts. 5. With PK (plain keystones, the unshaded ones) on freight cars, some orange cabooses, and virtually all diesels in the large yellow-orange numbers on the cab, it's different than the "classic era" most PRR modelers represent. 5. I'm modeling "what I know", following a recommendation Allen McClelland made to me while we were working on something else. I started railfanning in 1970, and understand that era pretty well. Also, since the units I fanned were all in the post-1966 numbers (really PC), the units I model look "familiar" to me. 6. Being right after the merger, I can use PRR, NYC, and PC cars as home-road. Before the explosion of plastic car availability, having any variety among homeroad cars was a real problem. And modeling prototype operations demanded a high homeroad ratio. 7. Oddly, although I can use first-generation PC paint jobs, there are almost none on the layout. This may be because most commercial PC items are a) wrong b) later in PC's life c) terminally ugly -- take your pick. 8. No pesky "handrails" (induction train phone antennas) on roof of engines and cabin cars (cabooses). 9. The 40' car still exists in quantity, but some new boxcars and covered hoppers can be used. 10. In terms of the physical surroundings, the buildings and even brand names tended to have been around for years. Actually, the railroad would not have changed much since 1942, when a lot of signaling upgrading took place. And most of the traditional ag shippers were still in business and shipping by rail. By the 70s, farms in the area I model started to disappear under waves of suburbanization. In that sense, 1968 is a pause before the "attack of the bulldozers". To sum up, it's obvious I enjoy tackling a particular prototype. I enjoy doing something a bit different, both familiar and offbeat. And the era offers variety, but the remnants of classic single-car railroading. What can I say? By the way, what part of the C&O are you modeling in 1969? My C&O-fan friends from Dayton, Cincinnati, and Louisville used to drag me off to Handley, Quinnimont, and Hinton in the 70's. I've spent a lot of time on (if not in) the New River. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:28:08 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Parlor-Coach combines Hi all, I'm curently building a kitbash of a certain Pennsy passenger car, and I'm trying to gather up some more information on it. I'm hoping others on the list might know a little more about this set of cars. Both to avoid folks sending me info I already have, and in order to share what I have managed to piece together so far, here is what I know... In 1931, the PRR and Pullman build a pair of parlor-coach combine cars. These cars were not assigned names (as was the practice for Pullman cars) but were instead assigned numbers - PRR 3620 and PRR 3621. As these two cars are listed in the 1938 ORER under PRR and were assignes PRR numbers, I assume that PRR (not Pullman) owned the cars. Still, the cars were lettered "Pullman" on the letterboard. Presumably these cars were a product of their time and the prevailing economic conditions. With the Great Depression under full swing, it might have made much more sense to run a parlor-coach combine in a consist than to run a full parlor car with mostly empty seats! The only photo and diagram I have come across confirm that this car can be modeled in N scale by plating over one of the windows in a Rivarossi heavyweight coach - this is the approach I have taken. The resources I've come across so far include: (1) Kratville "Passenger Car Catalog" page 143 shows a photo of the car and a plan. The photo caption indicates this car is "Plan 4011-A, Rebuilt, PRR service". The plan caption indicates "Plan 4011-A These cars Diagram 136. Car numbers 3620,3621." The photo shows no discernable lettering, only the word "PULLMAN" on the letterboard. (2) The PRR Passenger Equipment listings in the Apr 1938 ORER lists these cars as part of the series 3101-3632. Nearly all of the cars in this series are listed as coaches, but some are called out under "Note P" as AAR class PBC(e) (Parlor Lounge Coach) and finally, the two cars of interest to me are called out under "Note Q" as AAR class DB(e), Parlor Lounge, Buffet, Coach. (3) The Smithsonian Institute list of negatives indicates negative 36595 as "Coach 3620 interior" under the PRR listings. Photo is dated 1931. The questions I have include: What were these cars rebuilt from (presumably they were not built NEW in the year 1931!)? What trains did they (or were they likely to have) run in? Were the coach and parlor sections of the car staffed/ maintained by separate sets of employees (Pullman AND PRR)? In Kratville, the diagram and the photo do not match exactly in terms of window spacing. Why would this be? Perhaps the car was further rebuilt after the drawing was made? Or is the drawing just plain wrong? Thanks for any help... if anyone is interested in building one of these in N scale, drop me a note and I'll provide you with a few pointers... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:07:48 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: [PRR] [FWD]Tower car for wire train. Greetings to the group, I received this very detailed question from Mr. Ed French (brass1@olypen.com). Can anyone help this gentleman? -Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Can you help? Please! Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:41:11 +0000 From: Judy French-Scott Organization: Brass 1 To: cobrandt@eclipse.net ... please help or give me a reference to further my search for images of the PRR TOWER CAR for the WIRE TRAIN I am modeling this car in 1:29 scale for my garden railroad. I have reached a dilemma in some finish details not clear in the few pictures in my library. My best picture is in PRR COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT by Sweetland Yanosey, copyright 1992, bottom of page 108. I have another picture of the same car in Volume 2, same title by Fischer, copyright 1996, top of page 114. I also found a working catenary wire maintenance train on page 285 of THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD by Alexander, copyright 1947. These pictures show the tower platform raised to working position. My question: How is the tower raised, lowered, and held in position? I examined my "best picture". I see hoists with hanging cables attached to the upper part of the scaffold-like structure which is attached to the flat car body. This hoist is repeated in each of three bays of the structure. Below these hoists are somewhat cubical devices which are attached to the bottom of the elevating scaffold. The hoist cables apparently are attached here. I need a bit more detail information to apply this feature to my model. Can you help me? I would like to discuss this by phone with someone, if possible. Daytime or evening is convenient for me. Any response or contact will be appreciated. I am connecting with you electronically through my daughter. So please call collect or E-Mail as you please. Many thanks, Ed French E. M. French 1612 Pepperidge Drive Orlando, FL 32806 E-Mail via daughter Judy French-Scott (that's "brass" followed by a number "1") -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:24:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] [HO] Walthers Passenger Cars Andy, Your posting got me interested and indeed, one of the local hobby shops had a walthers blurb on these two "cars". Why they've decided to bring these back I can't imagine, other than the "fun" aspect, but if it's an indication that better things might follow, great. I've always like the old Walther's cars (wouldn't it be nice to see the modernized combine back in production?), but i have to agree that Branclines, delayed as they seem to be, will more than likely build a far better product (made in the USA, to boot). Well, we'll see what developes. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:28:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 lettering and appropriate decals Doug, It's my opinion that once the T's were pulled off the first class trains and assigned to the mail/express trains if they were repainted they were probably done in the plain no stripe scheme . Most of the later in life shots I've seen show no striping but most were so dirty they still might have stripes under all the dirt. One thing else to consider. Depending on your type of lighting on your layout I would not recommend the use of Grimy Black as the main color. I painted my blast furnaces grimy black and under my cool-white fluorescents they had a purple sheen to them. Using grimy black as a weathering over engine black or DGLE doesn't seem to have the purple sheen problem. Hope this helps. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: [PRR] PRR Triumph II Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:37:16 -0400 Hi all. Hope you are all cooler than we are here in South Jersey. Has anyone heard about the status of the Triumph II book? Last I heard there was a problem between the author and the publisher. It was supposed to be published in the spring (this year, I thought). I paid for the book back in April and I was wondering if I poured my money down a rat hole. Someone on the list previously stated that he thought that Triumph III would make it to market before II. Bud ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:41:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] kitbashing gondulas I thought I sent this out to the list last week, but, I don't remember seeing it come across my pc and I didn't see any answers. I guess I'm getting old and hitting the wrong keys on the board. Anyway, please forgive me if this came across your terminal: I have seen some articles dealing with kitbashing ConCor gons (the 52'-6" and 54' mill gons) to make them Pennsy like. Has anyone done anything like that with the current P2K 54' mill gons? Thanks, Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:18:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] kitbashing gondulas Joel, The P2K gondola is not correct for a Pennsy Gondola. You could model it as an ERIE, LV, or NYC/P&LE or any other use in your consist though. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:30:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Taking the show on the road Hey Yuze Guys, I have been talking with Jim Six and other members of the MRA Steering Committee and we are now in negotiations with the NMRA to help promote in a couple of their regional conventions. We will display our models individually and separately from their modeling contest. Our hopes are to have a separate room for ourselves as the contest room has limited visiting hours and I am sure you would all agree we would much rather have a bit more freedom. Details will be forth coming, we sure hope that the cooperation between NMRA regional's and MRA's works out. I realize it depends on where and when the conventions are held, but let me know what the consensus is. I am not a huge fan of the NMRA but they are offering us EXPOSURE as a trade. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR 1968 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:22:51 -0500 Dejavu. Rick, I couldn't believe your response. I thought that email was written by me, since I am modeling the PRR in 1968 for almost the same exact reasons. All I can say is ditto to your 10 points! Regards, Greg Johnson Modeling 1968 Pittsburgh in 1999 Houston -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com To: cdjhyoung@yahoo.com ; ldsig@onelist.com ; MEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 2:46 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR 1968 >In a message dated 7/5/99 12:10:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >cdjhyoung@yahoo.com writes: > ><< A short query that may invoke a long response. I notice your signature > shows you are modeling Pennsy in '68. What brought you to that era? I > ask because I find myself working on two project railroads, my home > project is C&O 1969, my club's operation based layout is Wabash in > 1964. Each was chosen for some rather limiting and arbitrary reasons. > What framed your choice? > > John Young > (you know what I'm modeling) > >> >Hi John, >At this point, I could be a coward and say that I don't know. But actually, >I remember a few answers (remember, you asked for this): > >1. Not to be pedantic, but the old "oh, I model between 1959 and 1968" >approach is not for me. I like the idea of modeling a particular time on the >prototype. For me, that time is June 1968. Actually, it was a really >horrible time for America, but it was an interesting time on the railroad. >Rail traffic was booming that year, and no one could predict the disaster in >PC's future (same thing that makes TITANIC a great story). >2. Diesel models were cheaper, better running, and more durable than steam. >They still are (and I have over 100 units). >3. 1966-68 is a "sweet spot" in terms of variety of old and new diesel models >for PRR. This is true for number of prototype diesel models, and again for >models available in HO. I can show you the graphs -- variety is at an >all-time high in diesel history. >4. 1968 covers Pennsy rolling stock right to the end, including all the >interesting cars built by vendors in the 60's, especially those for auto >parts. >5. With PK (plain keystones, the unshaded ones) on freight cars, some orange >cabooses, and virtually all diesels in the large yellow-orange numbers on the >cab, it's different than the "classic era" most PRR modelers represent. >5. I'm modeling "what I know", following a recommendation Allen McClelland >made to me while we were working on something else. I started railfanning in >1970, and understand that era pretty well. Also, since the units I fanned >were all in the post-1966 numbers (really PC), the units I model look >"familiar" to me. >6. Being right after the merger, I can use PRR, NYC, and PC cars as >home-road. Before the explosion of plastic car availability, having any >variety among homeroad cars was a real problem. And modeling prototype >operations demanded a high homeroad ratio. >7. Oddly, although I can use first-generation PC paint jobs, there are almost >none on the layout. This may be because most commercial PC items are a) >wrong b) later in PC's life c) terminally ugly -- take your pick. >8. No pesky "handrails" (induction train phone antennas) on roof of engines >and cabin cars (cabooses). >9. The 40' car still exists in quantity, but some new boxcars and covered >hoppers can be used. >10. In terms of the physical surroundings, the buildings and even brand >names tended to have been around for years. Actually, the railroad would not >have changed much since 1942, when a lot of signaling upgrading took place. >And most of the traditional ag shippers were still in business and shipping >by rail. By the 70s, farms in the area I model started to disappear under >waves of suburbanization. In that sense, 1968 is a pause before the "attack >of the bulldozers". > >To sum up, it's obvious I enjoy tackling a particular prototype. I enjoy >doing something a bit different, both familiar and offbeat. And the era >offers variety, but the remnants of classic single-car railroading. What can >I say? > >By the way, what part of the C&O are you modeling in 1969? My C&O-fan >friends from Dayton, Cincinnati, and Louisville used to drag me off to >Handley, Quinnimont, and Hinton in the 70's. I've spent a lot of time on (if >not in) the New River. > >Til the next train out, > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) > Operating the Panhandle Route > And Remembering PRR Lines West > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 03:37:13 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Pennsy in Canada, 3 references >From the 1945 CT1000, pg 275: BFO Buffalo, NY (Bailey Ave.)(Jc. DL&W RR) 0.0 RK Black Rock, NY 11.2 BG Bridgeburg, Ont (Can. Nat. Rys - Yard) 13.2 " " (Wabash Ry Yard) 13.2 VK Victoria, Ont (M. C. RR Victoria Yard) 13.7 >From 1923 CT1000, pg 322: same as above, except delete reference to Wabash In both CT1000's there is fine print in the left margin indicating DL&W from Buffalo to Black Rock, CN Ry at Bridgeburg, MC RR at Victoria. >From ICC Valuation Report, Vol 22, pp 363-364 Property jointly used but not owned, owned by: The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad Co. Trackage 11.18 miles Buffalo to Black Rock, NY The Grand Trunk Railway Co. Trackage 1.05 miles Balck Rock NY to Fort Erie, Ont. The Michigan Central Railroad Co. Trackage 1.11 miles International to Birdgeport, Ont Note that the ICC and the PRR have different ideas about the names of some points in Ontario. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:10:37 -0400 Pennsy Diesel Years Volumes 1-6, Wabash, Norfolk and Western in color, Jersey Central, any Reading book, just to name a few, all by Morning Sun Books. They even did an all FM book which of course contains the Trainmaster. ---------- > From: WAJK4@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos > Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 5:27 PM > > Could anyone please tell me where to find pictures of the Fairbanks Morse > Trainmaster on the web or in a book. I have had no luck other than finding a > diagram of it on the web. Thanks for your help. > > > Walt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:56:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Strafford Station Fire The fire was determined to be electrical; damages estimated at $4 million. A photo in the Philadelphia Inquirer shows a hole in the exterior wall approx 2' square. Although I haven't checked it myself, a visit to www.phillynews.com MAY have more info/photos... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 09:24:56 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] bye-bye birdie and sleeping cheap Hank, I have done one of the post-war observations (SAMUEL REA) and the Broadway mid train lounge just as you suggest, from old Rivarossi cars. I have also done a post-war 6br lounge (ASPEN FALLS). As you guessed, the mid train lounges are best done from an observation car. They have the same size lounge windows. One lounge window has to be bocked out and the end needs to be replaced with a standard end from a 10-6. However, for the same (or less) effort, all these cars and more (less the post-war observations) are now available from Union Station Products (Jerry is a dealer). This also circumvents some to the Rivarossi problems, such as the two-foot deep windows and the heavyweight underbody! The only thing which remains easier on the Rivarossi cars, is painting the aluminum window frames which made post-war PRR cars so distinctive. The oversize window frame on Rivarossi made that much easier. On several cars I have combined the two ideas. I used USP sides with a Rivarossi roof. I have several left over from my many kitbashes. The Rivarossi roof has to be shortened. Rivarossi cars a "longies". I think their diameter read the length over buffers as the overall body length. However, this gives me the opportunity the remove that terrible "band-aid" across the roof of a Rivarossi car where the access hatch should have been! I finish the car with a brass floor for excellent tracking and scratch built ends. This avoids trying the get the warp out of an ECW core kit (and saves about $10). Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ===================================================bubbles@visi.net wrote (in part): ... > I've been doing some messing around with some of the old Rivarossi > sleeping cars. And after looking at the pictures in both the > color guide books, MR's Oct 94 Broadway plans and the floor > plans from the PRR Passenger and Freight car diagram book > I've noticed some things you might be able to do with these cars. > > One thing is to make a more correct or different version of the > 10-6 sleepers. The 10-6 they (Rivarossi)make seems to follow the " Eagle" > series of cars. With part of the side from the Observation you > can make one of the other " Rapids " cars such as Cattawissa > Rapids. Also with some tinkering you might be able to build > one of the earlier 10-5 sleepers. > Also if you can get two 10-6 cars you might be able to make > one of the ACF type 21 roomette cars such as Zanesville Inn. I thought of > using two 10-6 cars because of the window spacing. > Then theres the prewar 18 roomettes. You might be able to make > one from two 12-5 duplex sleepers. Using the passageway side > of course and you would have to move the door on one side and such. > > Then for the little braver there is the other seven post war > observations. This would entail using double windows from another > car. Also with some playing around you might be able to build > the Diner part of a post war twin unit. from a 10-6 or parts > of the observation car. (the obs for more correct windows.) > > Theres also the Harbor cars...which could be made from parts of the > 10-6 and the observations. Also perhaps a post war 4-4-2 car. > This would be from what ever would work to get this car. But that > would entail a lot more cutting and filling and sanding...Perhaps > not worth the trouble. > > Anyone out there want to field this ? Remember its just a idea. > > Have fun everyone and have a safe holliday. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:12:32 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] bye-bye birdie and sleeping cheap Hank, I was done in by my spell checker. "I think their diameter read the length . . . " should have said: "I think their diemaker read the length . . . " Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:59:06 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] PRR E-3sd/E-5s/E-7s Kitbash Hello list, Now that my T-1 and E-6s are almost done, I'm considering my next engine project. I'd like to model either an E-3sd or E-5s of the 1940s (shortly before the last few were retired) or E-7s 8063 before she was cosmetically altered to resemble the 7002. Brass being out of the question financially, I plan on using a Bowser E-6s chassis and the Mantua PRR Atlantic boiler. I have a set of plans for the E-3 from a 1941 Model Railroader, and the Mantua boiler seems close enough to use as a starting point, except that the firebox extends to the very rear of the cab (ie: the engine is deckless). Has anyone done this conversion (I'd cheerfully follow in the footsteps of the more experienced)? Do any of you have suggestions or comments; they'd be most welcome. Thanks in advance Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:46:09 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Re: Address for Alco Products --Boundary_(ID_knSHqOVeHn/OihsO1fpXHw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel and the List, If you'd like to order Alco Products repower kits, you have several options. Firstly, Jerry sells them through his company, Desktop Solutions. Alco Products' address is 312 Hunter Forge Road Macungie, PA 18062 610 845 7301 You could also order the repower kits (at least for PRR engines) from Bowser; their number is 800 327 5126. I've installed the Alco Products kits in a Mantua Pacific (my grandfather loves the kitbashed CNJ G-4s that started out as a Mantua Pacific, but that is another story), a Bowser H-9s, a Bowser K-4s, a Bowser K-4s chassis for a Bachmann K-4s, and the new Bowser I-1sa, all in addition to my abuilding T-1. If your H-9s or E-6s has the boiler weight in the forward portion of the cavity, you may have a bit of grinding to do with a motor tool; I spent about 30 minutes with my Dremel so the flywheel/worm would fit. The other installations are drop in, except for the Bowser chassis/Bachmann boiler combination, which also required a bit of grinding. Anyway, now you can repower your steamers; good luck!!! Doug JOELPRR@aol.com wrote: > >By the way, the Alco Products repower kit I installed makes the engine a > >much smoother runner; I'd recommend it to anyone owning a Bowser T-1. > > Hi Doug, > > I have been trying to get in touch with Alco to repower my E6 and H9. I've > called twice and left a message for them to call me, but I have not received > a reply. Maybe I have a wrong number. Do you have a phone number or address > for them? > > Thanks, > Joel --Boundary_(ID_knSHqOVeHn/OihsO1fpXHw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Joel and the List,

If you'd like to order Alco Products repower kits, you have several options. Firstly, Jerry sells them through his company, Desktop Solutions.  Alco Products' address is
312 Hunter Forge Road
Macungie, PA 18062
610 845 7301

You could also order the repower kits (at least for PRR engines) from Bowser;
their number is

800 327 5126.

I've installed the Alco Products kits in a Mantua Pacific (my grandfather loves the  kitbashed CNJ G-4s that started out as a Mantua Pacific, but that is another story),
a Bowser H-9s, a Bowser K-4s, a Bowser K-4s chassis for a Bachmann K-4s, and the new Bowser I-1sa, all in addition to my abuilding T-1.  If your H-9s or E-6s has the boiler weight in the forward portion of the cavity, you may have a bit of grinding to do with a motor tool; I spent about 30 minutes with my Dremel so the flywheel/worm would fit.  The other installations are drop in, except for the Bowser chassis/Bachmann boiler combination, which also required a bit of grinding.

Anyway, now you can repower your steamers; good luck!!!

Doug

JOELPRR@aol.com wrote:

>By the way, the Alco Products repower kit I installed makes the engine a
>much smoother runner; I'd recommend it to anyone owning a Bowser T-1.

Hi Doug,

I have been trying to get in touch with Alco to repower my E6 and H9.  I've
called twice and left a message for them to call me, but I have not received
a reply.  Maybe I have a wrong number.  Do you have a phone number or address
for them?

Thanks,
Joel

--Boundary_(ID_knSHqOVeHn/OihsO1fpXHw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:56:32 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] news from Those Classic Trains Hello everyone, A quick note to let you know what is happening here: I have just come back from a meeting with the CPAs. They now have all the legal BS and are doing up the forms to submit to the banks / SBA. I go back to sign the last documents on the 16th, then it's up to the bankers. There is no absolute guarantee that this loan can be arranged. However, the CPAs state that the Plan looks very sound and well drawn up, the market studies are solid, product concept good, etc etc etc. In their words, if any plan can fly, this one will. Presuming all goes well, capitalization should be completed within 60 to 90 days. We're getting closer! My best to all, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Strafford Station Fire From: "Michael E. Allen" Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 21:21:49 EDT I realize that the station is historic but how in thunder can even SEPTA jack the repair price up to $4 million?? MEA ________________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Telephone 609-683-0356 Management Services Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen meallen@juno.com W.R Allen Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:56:36 EDT BigBeerBob@aol.com writes: >The fire was determined to be electrical; damages estimated at $4 >million. A >photo in the Philadelphia Inquirer shows a hole in the exterior wall >approx >2' square. Although I haven't checked it myself, a visit to >www.phillynews.com MAY have more info/photos... > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:24:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 lettering and appropriate decals On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, doug.kisala wrote: > Hello list, > > My Bowser T-1 will soon be ready for paint and decals. While > inaccurate, I've decided upon Polly Scale's grimy black for the main Huh? WHY? Not to be a "color crank", but these locos were DGLE, and were noticably green, when clean and waxed. Of course, Polly Scale DGLE, followed by decals (striped would be my vote) followed by grime would be very very appropriate. Happy painting Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David William Gnuse Subject: [PRR] Hotels and activities Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:01:37 -0400 Okay, I appreciate the response I got. It has helped, but what I am looking for is a "main stream" hotel (Holiday inn, etc) near to the tracks in altoona. Also, I saw a post that described what activities would be happening on the friday and saturday of railfest. Does anyone have that e-mail as I have deleted it? David --------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Gnuse dgnuse@erols.com kickitup@railfan.net Fractal Page Railfan Page www.erols.com/dgnuse kickitup.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] RE:Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster photos Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:47:23 -0400 Hi! Years back, Extra 2200 South magazine did an extensive feature on Trainmasters which showed and detailed all different phases and many paint schemes for the Trainmaster. You might want to contact them about back issues... Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Web-site List, For those who care to stop by, I have placed some more PRR Photos on my web-site and changed things a round a little. It can be seen at: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ............Thanks, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 14:30:22 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: [PRR] MTS P-RSL MU Car Stumbled across one of these kits in one shop on a recent visit to S. Jersey, and the Walthers Baldwin truck kit at another shop. Instructions talk about "Filler" or two-part epoxy to assemble. Query 'filler.' Is this gap filling CA? or some such?? Motive power? Any other hints would be appreciated. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Web-site Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:53:25 -0700 Hi... I just stopped by Gary's page and what a nice collection of Pennsy Steam he has! Check it out...and if you don't care about steam, check it out anyways...we need the converts! A couple of items that he mentions look like they need elaboration: The shot of the I1s with "strange piping" sure is strange...it's had it's Worthington Feedwater heater removed. As a BLW built engine, it originally had a FWH, and you can see where it was. The shot of K4s 5484 showing it as having poppet valves...nope...but it does have a front end throttle, larger valves, and was classed K4sa. The shot of K4s 5371 was one of two K4s's with Timken lightweight rods and roller bearings (the other one was #20)...note that the air tank was located on the pilot deck ala classes L1s or M1. Speaking of class L1s...the pictured L1s (8260) was converted to oil for service out of Baltimore, and in this picture, is shown on her way to perform her last service as a stationary boiler, along with 5 other oil burning L1s. They cut off the overhang on the cab roof, mounted the tenders behind the smokebox (who sez that the Espee was the only American railroad to operate cab forwards???). This allowed one boiler tender to maintain all of the locomotives at once. Thanks Gary for sharing your photos...I'd love to see more. For some funny reason I can't get enough of Pennsy's steamers! Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 1:43 PM Subject: [PRR] Web-site List, For those who care to stop by, I have placed some more PRR Photos on my web-site and changed things a round a little. It can be seen at: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ............Thanks, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:18:04 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] the Florida Trade Howdy all, Well- I finally got part 3 of "The Florida Trade" completed and uploaded. This was more of a challenge than you might think for one small state: whoever made up those "condensed" ACL and SAL timetables had a real problem. TALK about selective compression! Anyway, the part about the traffic distribution below Jacksonville is done. I worked over the map and finally untangled the various connecting trains (I think). I am also trying a bit of new methodology on this page which hopefully will become standard thruout the site. Please take a look and let me know what you think? http://www.thoseclassictrains.com/FLAdata3.html Now that I have a bit of a break, I hope to finish up "New York to Florida" and at least hammer "Chicago to Florida" into better shape over the next day or so. Then it's back to business stuph. My best to all, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Web-site BILL D. AND LIST, Thanks Bill, I have plenty more photos where these come in my collection. With the help of Clint Chamberlin in his scanning and indexing my photos for his own page, I was able to start my own page. In the near future I will do the scanning and indexing myself. I want to thank Clint for allowing me to link for now. When I post the photos in the future I will try to point out any "special" items that would be of interest. Like the Oil burner L1 and the Timkin bearing K4. I have all that posted on the backs of the photos. I didn't get time to type it in yet. Thanks too for catching that typo Bill. Everyone knows that is a front end throttle! That K4 5484 actually has Disc Drivers and the one above it #5399 is the one with Poppet valves. Keep looking for more to be posted. Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Web-site Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:25:14 -0400 I cannot get Clint Chamberlin's web page to open, even by going through links at other sites. What gives? -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Web-site BILL D. AND LIST, Thanks Bill, I have plenty more photos where these come in my collection. With the help of Clint Chamberlin in his scanning and indexing my photos for his own page, I was able to start my own page. In the near future I will do the scanning and indexing myself. I want to thank Clint for allowing me to link for now. When I post the photos in the future I will try to point out any "special" items that would be of interest. Like the Oil burner L1 and the Timkin bearing K4. I have all that posted on the backs of the photos. I didn't get time to type it in yet. Thanks too for catching that typo Bill. Everyone knows that is a front end throttle! That K4 5484 actually has Disc Drivers and the one above it #5399 is the one with Poppet valves. Keep looking for more to be posted. Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:18:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-3sd/E-5s/E-7s Kitbash Doug, Hello, being you recieved no kitbashing advice on the PRR E5, probably means no one has tried that one yet. I once had an Brass Alco Models PRR E5s. Actually I think it was the second brass loco I ever purchased. Little did I know they where known to run like a dog that lost a fight with a bear. The conversion I did was placed the Boiler, pilot, pony truck, trailing truck and cylinders from that engine on an Bowser E6 chassis with a can motor for power. Although incorrect I still used the brass tender that can with the engine. I eventually sold that when I upgraded to a Key E-7s 4-4-2. The reason why I am replying to your question is there is an Alco Model PRR E-5s on eBay riight now. Item # 128587309. It is a no reserve action and it is at $49.00 as of now. I know you wanted to avoid the Brass prices but by the time you buy a Mantua and a Bowser kit you will be in the $200.00 range. Unless you already have the on hand to start out with. If I were you I would watch that auction. You may be able to get that in the $200.00 range. But eBay is Ebay. It could go higher being that is a sellers maket. Who knows that one may need no upgrade in the chassis. He says it runs well on rollers but that dosn't say if it wobbles or not. Email him and ask some questions. ..........Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: andrew harmantas Subject: Re: [PRR] MTS P-RSL MU Car Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 08:39:57 EDT Instructions>talk about "Filler" or two-part epoxy to assemble. Query 'filler.' Is>this gap filling CA? or some such?? _______________________________ Some use gap filling CA as filler. I use two part epoxy, not from tubes, but in cans, available from most hardware stores, marine suppliers, paint stores, home centers, etc. I use SR7 brand. Two cans come taped together. One is the resin, the other hardener. Mix in equal proportions--the stuff is like cold peanut butter. It can be worked after it dries, as in sanded, filed, and drilled. Advantage to using the thick stuff as a filler is that it won't run or sag when you apply it. Now, this is not the kind of epoxy you would use to assemble anything. For that, get the clear stuff in tubes. These come in different formulations for drying times, from five minutes on up. The five minute stuff is useful for small jobs that can go together quickly. If you need enough to, say, apply to the underside of a roof for a streamlined passenger car, the glue would begin to set up before you could get it carefully applied. These epoxy glues are generally for sale at full hobby shops that carry model airplane supplies. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, and epoxy user in Tidewater Virginia, right near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:39:38 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Web-site Clint Chamberlin's Website is at http://WWW.NorthEast.Railfan.net Give this one a shot! On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Bill Volkmer wrote: >I cannot get Clint Chamberlin's web page to open, even by going through >links at other sites. What gives? > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gary Mittner >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:59 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Web-site > > >BILL D. AND LIST, > > Thanks Bill, I have plenty more photos where these come in my >collection. With the help of Clint Chamberlin in his scanning and >indexing my photos for his own page, I was able to start my own page. In >the near future I will do the scanning and indexing myself. I want to >thank Clint for allowing me to link for now. > When I post the photos in the future I will try to point out any >"special" items that would be of interest. Like the Oil burner L1 and >the Timkin bearing K4. I have all that posted on the backs of the >photos. I didn't get time to type it in yet. Thanks too for catching >that typo Bill. Everyone knows that is a front end throttle! That K4 >5484 actually has Disc Drivers and the one above it #5399 is the one >with Poppet valves. Keep looking for more to be posted. Gary > > >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY > >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:27:53 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Is the server ok? Jerry, I can't visit Keystone Crossings; the link was fine yesterday. Hope it's not server problems! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:45:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [D] UP Centipedes Stu, Centipedes on the UP is a fascinating idea, even if it is probably completely bogus. I get the feeling that, maintenance-wise, the Centipedes were about the worst engines the Pennsy ever bought. They were bad when new, and got worse as they aged. There's a story that the men referred to them as self-firing -- in other words, if a pipe leaked oil, there was sure to be something electrical under it to set it on fire. Others have said a whole generation of Pennsy plumbers were let go later than planned because the Centipedes kept them on the payroll. Of course, take all such stories with a few grains of salt. The brutal and indecent truth is that, with all those oversized Westinghouse traction motors, they would still have been potent luggers; terrific for helper service. Notice that despite their many faults, they stayed on the roster a lot longer than the T-1's and Q-2's of Pennsy's postwar steam orders. Rick Tipton Still aghast at all that running gear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:53:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: Steam sounds Good news for you sound junkies. Back in April we had a discussion of the lack of engine sounds for models, and how to get Soundtraxx to expand their inventory. I called Soundtraxx and told them the PRRT&HS had sounds on their CD set that could be used. Naturally they immediately said "Copyright." I suggested they give the society a nominal fee for each system sold. Later I bounced the idea off Chuck Blardone. Chuck responded that the Board might approve just letting them use the sounds at no cost. I sent a letter to the PRRT&HS and requested the Board be polled to learn if they would object to Soundtraxx using the PRR CD's. Two days ago I received an e-mail from Chuck Blardone telling me the Board had approved my request. Today I called Soundtraxx and spoke with Nancy L. Workman, V.P. Sales & Marketing. I told her about the Board's decision, gave her Blardone's e-mail address so she could receive the word from him directly, and gave her the PRRT&HS web page URL so she could order the CD's. I also told her that my informal poll of the PRR Talkers indicated Soundtraxx would sell at least 10 of the I-1 systems (which is the reason I started this effort in the first place) She said it would be August before anything would happen. But at least the ball is rolling. I'm already salivating at the thought of my double headed coal train laboring upgrade. More as it develops. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Steam sounds Donald, Does Soundraxx make them for DC operation too or just for the three reail guys? I have a J1 and an I1 and a K4 in 2 rail O scale and would like to put sound in them. ....Gary ......Centipedes on the UP is a fascinating idea, even if it is probably completely >bogus. >Of course, take all such stories with a few grains of salt. > >The brutal and indecent truth is that, with all those oversized Westinghouse >traction motors, they would still have been potent luggers; terrific for >helper service. Notice that despite their many faults, they stayed on the >roster a lot longer than the T-1's and Q-2's of Pennsy's postwar steam orders. > >Rick Tipton ===== Actually, UP did order a pair, #998 and #999. However, they changed their mind and cancelled during construction and they were completed as a pair of demos which I believe went to Mexico. According to a Trains article some years ago, Pennsy did try them out as hump engines, but they kept derailing when going over the hump. The traffic department must have loved having their hump yards tied up all day like that. I suspect they were retired mostly because they were so ungainly and so prone to breakdowns- plus they were oddballs even in Pennsys multi-ethnic fleet. However, I suspect just about any story you hear of them can likely be taken as true! Bob (wishing at least one had been saved) Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:52:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] PA RR License Plate Following comment from my daughter, back home in PA: And I've seen a few of those railroad license plates - they're awfully DARK!! You have to get right up to the other car and kinda squint to figure out what it's a picture of... so unless you want to ENCOURAGE people to tailgate, I really don't think they embody the TRUE SPIRIT of the phenomenon that IS the PA rail system. Would like to solicite opinion(s) from the list, as I was thinking of getting the plate, even though I haven't seen one yet here in Chicago; does the plate really capture the essence of "When the Broadway Greets/Meets?? the Dawn"?? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL "Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs" (sm) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:49:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] UP centipedes In a message dated 7/10/99 1:11:56 PM Central Daylight Time, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: << I suspect they were retired mostly because they were so ungainly and so prone to breakdowns- plus they were oddballs even in Pennsys multi-ethnic fleet. However, I suspect just about any story you hear of them can likely be taken as true! Bob (wishing at least one had been saved) >> As I said about a year ago on this list, I am still kicking myself that I did not crawl all over them with my camera(avoiding the gendarmes) when I lived in LaGrange Park, Illinois, 100 yards from the IHB siding for interchange to McCook (EMD) and scrapping. Many of the Baldwins made it there in the 1966-67 time period. Too busy with 4 kids and going to grad school nights while working. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] I'm Baaaaack! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 21:29:48 -0400 From: Jerry Wow! Looks like you had plenty to talk about while I was on vacation! Good job! Took the family to Myrtle Beach and learned to time the length of my son's naps by the number of freight cars I could put together while he was down! I only came home with one unbuilt kit! BTW: The Red Caboose cars blow away the InterMountain's. This was my first time -- and probably the last time -- building the latter. Yes, "Keystone Crossings" was down (along with numerous other web sites). I haven't had a chance to look at the logs yet, but I think it was in the latter half of the week. I got in around 7:20 p.m. this evening -- after an 11 hour drive -- did a reboot, and all was back online. List and mail service, as well as ftp, seemed to work flawlessly thoughout the week. BTW: I was driving north on I-95 today. Just south of Richmond I passed a car with the new PRR license tags from Pennsylvania. It was # PR 2063. Anyone on the list? While I was out, Brad lined up yet another speaker for the "PRR-Talk" track at the Altoona PRRT&HS convention. More details will be made available shortly, once I consult with Brad. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention '99 - Feedback? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 20:54:06 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/5/99 8:11 AM, David Pfeiffer (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > One note of concern. This convention agenda discussion with alternatives >to the "official" agenda has a distinct note of 'bickering' within the >society. This internal bickering has been disastrous in other rail >historical/preservation organizations. I would really HATE to see this >happen in the PRRT&HS! If the agenda is 'light', then maybe it's because >more volunteers were not forthcoming when plans were being made. While >many of us may not agree with everything regarding the Lewistown Station >project, it has been a major focus of the Society, and it being a major >focus of the this convention is appropriate given its proximity to Altoona. When help is offered, it is usually ignored or turned away. > Not knowing the hotel/motel situation in Lewistown, is it possible for a >convention to be held there? If change in the Society is the goal, then >it should be done within the administration of the Society. Yes, there is enough space. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: pennsy@keystone.alphalink.com.au (Mike Molloy) Subject: [PRR] [OT]WEBVILLE AND HYPERTEXT RAILROAD Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 06:19:00 GMT Hi everyone, Chris Coleman runs the WEBVILLE AND HYPERTEXT RAILROAD COMPANY Website. Can anyone shed some light on to what happened to this excellent site? It does not appear to have any update to it for six months or more, and as there used to be a regular monthly update, I thought it to be a bit odd. It was a source of some very good (US) East Coast Railroad data, including my introduction to PRR-Talk. Regards, Mick Molloy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:41:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] PA License Plate Question/Comment Jerry, re: your sighting of a PRR license plate near Richmond, VA on I-95...is this something different than the "RR Historical" plate? And yes, I do agree that the "RR Historical" plate is a tad dark...wish the Keystone could have been brightened up. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] I'm Baaaaack! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:18:59 -0700 Jerry, While I too think that the Red Caboose kits are superior to the InterMountain kits, IM and RC do not overlap their kit lines...so if you want a Santa Fe or PFE reefer, you are "stuck" with IM. Actually they aren't that bad...and IM offers models for cars that aren't done by anybody else (well...their 10'6" boxcar is the same prototype as the ancient Athearn 40' box...) BTW, anybody assemble one of the IM F-7s yet...I know that they haven't released the passenger pilot version (as used by the PCo. on their freight locomotives), but still... Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Saturday, July 10, 1999 9:00 PM Subject: [PRR] I'm Baaaaack! BTW: The Red Caboose >cars blow away the InterMountain's. This was my first time -- and >probably the last time -- building the latter. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:22:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] NMRA National Convention-St. Paul Folks, If anyone on the talk list is coming to the national convention next week, please feel free to contact me regarding the local railroad scene. I won't be attending the convention myself, except for the national railroad show at the civic center that is oriented toward manurfacturers.However, since I live here anyway, I'd expect far larger than usual railfanning around the local hot spots and will try to get out a bit more than usual that week. A local favorite is the Minnesota Commercial Railway (formerly Minnesota Transfer) that still features an 8 stall steam era roundhouse and turntable at it's engine terminal, which houses mostly genuine Alco's. And it's all in daily service, maintaining engines . Lots of other interesting stuff too, so if interested please contact me off line Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:24:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] I'm Baaaaack! In a message dated 7/11/99 11:45:58 AM Central Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << and IM offers models for cars that aren't done by anybody else (well...their 10'6" boxcar is the same prototype as the ancient Athearn 40' box...) >> And that prototype is? Seriously, I have asked that question before (not on this list) and never got an answer. Can anyone fill me in? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PA License Plate Question/Comment Date: Sun, 11 Jul 99 18:57:50 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/11/99 9:41 AM, Robert Boguski (BigBeerBob@aol.com) wrote: >Jerry, re: your sighting of a PRR license plate near Richmond, VA on >I-95...is this something different than the "RR Historical" plate? And yes, >I do agree that the "RR Historical" plate is a tad dark...wish the Keystone >could have been brightened up. I was indeed referring to the "RR Historical" plate. And yes, it is dark. I probably only noticed it as on long trips my wife and I have a little competition to see who can sight the most license plates from various states. The aforementioned plate was very dark and it wasn't until I got close enought that I realized it was a PA plate. It was the first of this series I have actually seen on the road. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:18:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] I'm Baaaaack!ATHEARN BOX CAR Bob and folks, The Athearn box car is reckoned to be an AAR 1937 standard, though John Neirich figured it was based on the Santa Fe's version of that car, which had an inside height of 10-5, rather than the 10 ft standard. I understand the prototype calls for a 4/5 Dreadnaught end rather than the 5/5. The MDC version of this car has the 5/5's. This model has been around so long that it's hard to picture a layout without one, and with a bit of work it still makes a decent model, at least in my opinion. Certainly decent enough to not scrap off fourty of them for models in the $12-16 range! Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:08:11 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Mechanical lubricator application to K4s pacifics --Boundary_(ID_TSYIjFlJLq4Qcgs/GnpIsQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, Having resolved my duplex dilemma, I returned to my beloved K4s pacifics. I'm redetailing the latest ones from Bachmann, which has entailed the following steps (at least so far): 1. Raising firing deck by adding a fourth step on the tender with styrene 2. Adding a mechanical lubricator and stoker (more about this later) 3. Changing out the pops, bell, and whistle for Cal Scale and Bowser parts. 4. Removing the parting line from the boiler top 5. New keystones and builders plates from Schylkill Division 6. Changing out the old marker lights for the modern ones from Cary (also in Cal-Scale's PRR modern front end kit). Any further suggestions are welcomed; so far, this list has satisfied my needs and has allowed me to retain the factory paint jobs (meaning I get another pair of engines that much sooner). While the tender is still an issue, accuracywise, it at least resembles a 110P75 rebuilt from a 110P70, and I can sleep nights again. Okay, now for my question. While I was researching where to put the mechanical lubricator (The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4 had plans for the modernized K4s), I realized that I'd never seen a stoker-fired K4s without a mechanical lubricator. However, I did see a K4s, specifically, the 1497 in 1938 (Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A Second Look, p 96) which had the mechanical lubricator, but was hand fired with a small (70P70 series) tender. When were mechanical lubricators first installed on the K4s fleet (the first stoker fired K4s pacifics that got the coast to coast tenders have pictures of the right side, but not the left)? Were there other engines like the1497, which got mechanical lubricators before they got stokers? Finally, were there ever K4s pacifics that got stokers before they got mechanical lubricators? I realize that this means nothing to those of us modelling the postwar period, since all K4s have both stokers and lubricators in that time frame, but I'm just curious. Doug --Boundary_(ID_TSYIjFlJLq4Qcgs/GnpIsQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,

Having resolved my duplex dilemma,  I returned to my beloved K4s pacifics.  I'm redetailing the latest ones from Bachmann, which has entailed the following steps (at least so far):
1.    Raising firing deck by adding a fourth step on the tender with styrene
2.    Adding a mechanical lubricator and stoker (more about this later)
3.    Changing out the pops, bell, and whistle for Cal Scale and Bowser parts.
4.    Removing the parting line from the boiler top
5.    New keystones and builders plates from Schylkill Division
6.    Changing out the old marker lights for the modern ones from Cary (also in          Cal-Scale's PRR modern front end kit).

Any further suggestions are welcomed; so far, this list has satisfied my needs and has allowed me to retain the factory paint jobs (meaning I get another pair of engines that much sooner).

While the tender is still an issue, accuracywise, it at least resembles a 110P75 rebuilt from a 110P70, and I can sleep nights again.

Okay, now for my question.  While I was researching where to put the mechanical lubricator (The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4 had plans for the modernized K4s), I realized that I'd never seen a stoker-fired K4s without a mechanical lubricator.  However, I did see a K4s, specifically, the 1497 in 1938 (Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A Second Look, p 96) which had the mechanical lubricator, but was hand fired with a small (70P70 series) tender.

When were mechanical lubricators first installed on the K4s fleet (the first stoker fired K4s pacifics that got the coast to coast tenders have pictures of the right side, but not the left)?  Were there other engines like the1497, which got mechanical lubricators before they got stokers?  Finally, were there ever K4s pacifics that got stokers before they got mechanical lubricators?

I realize that this means nothing to those of us modelling the postwar period, since all K4s have both stokers and lubricators in that time frame, but I'm just curious.

Doug
  --Boundary_(ID_TSYIjFlJLq4Qcgs/GnpIsQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:39:47 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] T-1 Tender Lettering, and cut down tender sides Hello list, I actually found the answer to my own question about T-1 tender lettering. I went through my reference books again, and on page 207 of Pennsy Steam: A to T, I found a shot of the 5511 in storage on April 4, 1953. Underneath the rust and grime was faintly visible a tender stripe, so at least this engine retained stripes to the end. I also noticed that most of the T-1s had the rear tender sides cut down by the time they left service. This seems to be progressive; first, sections were cut out, and then the sides were cut down to the top of the tank. Unfortunately, it looks to be impossible to duplicate this with the current Bowser tender. I never saw the old Bowser T-1 kit in any form, but based on old drawings in their older catalogs, it would be possible to cut down the tender sides. Based on photographs, it appears that the rear tender sides were cut completely down starting around 1948 (ex, Pennsy Steam, A to T, p 203, shows the 5513 with cut down sides on display on 10 Sept 1948); can anyone shed more light on this subject? Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:08:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] I'm Baaaaack! Bob and all, The prototype for the IM's 10'6 inside height car is the modified 1937 AAR "standard" car. So by a crude default Atherean's car is the same. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:16:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Safe Harbor Dam? So, I know in one of the Morning Sun books (Pennsy Electric Years, I think) there's a picture taken looking down over the lot at Safe Harbor dam, I seem to recall looking at a train and what I seem to recall is the old A&S bridge there. The lot down by the dam is closed to the public now, as I discovered today. Was it always? Anyone know how the photographer got all the way up there for that shot? I also got a bunch of pictures while at the Railroad Museum of PA, which I hope to make available during the week if anyone cares. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor Dam? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 99 06:28:05 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/12/99 12:16 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >So, I know in one of the Morning Sun books (Pennsy Electric Years, I >think) there's a picture taken looking down over the lot at Safe Harbor >dam, I seem to recall looking at a train and what I seem to recall is the >old A&S bridge there. The lot down by the dam is closed to the public >now, as I discovered today. Was it always? Anyone know how the >photographer got all the way up there for that shot? I presume you are speaking of the open area that is just north (upriver) of the dam...it is on top of the hill, which puts you about 100-150 feet above the right-of-way? I found this area, open at the time, about 1993...while randomly driving around Lancaster County one Sunday afternoon. This was before I got back into railroading, and I really didn't know what I was looking at, other than the fact that the two level bridge was an awesome scene. Too bad I didn't have a camera...the two times I have returned since the gates to this area have been locked. Shortly south of this entrance the road passes under the Martic Forge Bridge, which is nearly equally awesome. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:59:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor Dam? On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Jerry wrote: > I presume you are speaking of the open area that is just north (upriver) > of the dam...it is on top of the hill, which puts you about 100-150 feet > above the right-of-way? Actually, this is just south (downriver) of the dam, and I mean just... where the Conestoga River empties into the Susquehanna, the actual "Safe Harbor" if I was reading the "Port of Lancaster" sign correctly. > I found this area, open at the time, about 1993...while randomly driving > around Lancaster County one Sunday afternoon. This was before I got back > into railroading, and I really didn't know what I was looking at, other > than the fact that the two level bridge was an awesome scene. Too bad I > didn't have a camera...the two times I have returned since the gates to > this area have been locked. Ok, so where would this be? There's also a two-level bridge where I was, but since a) it was below the dam and b) I was below them (literally, the road goes under) I assume it wasn't the same place, but I'll be happy to look elsewhere since, well, it's not my end of the state but I've now found myself roaming Lancaster County 3 times in 2 months, and expect to at least once more before the end of July. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:54:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor Dam? When I attended Milersville State College back in the dark ages you could pull into the lot that is downstream of the dam. I can still picture the turbulence coming off the spillways. The picture you reference was taken by Bill Volkmer who was a PRR employee at the time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Tender Lettering, and cut down tender sides Doug, I assume you are talking about the missing portions of the of the tender that were removed for the clearence for the water columns. These tenders were so high thatthe height of the columns could not reach over the tender sides. To fix the problem the Penssy removed this portion of the tender side. I believe the S2, S1 ans the streamlined K4s??? recieved the same modification. Streamlining was nice but again, a mechancal nightmare! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Tender Lettering, and cut down tender sides Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:29:29 -0700 Hi, all... Doug's questions about the cut down T1's refer to the extreme height of the tender with the shrouding. I recall seeing (somewhere...I don't recall now) a shot of a PRR water column setup in Chicago that showed two seperate columns...a regualr height one for most locomotives and a higher one for T1's. It would be my thought that instead of replacing columns with new higher ones, espcially after the decision to dieselize had been made in 1947, the easiest solution was to cut down the tank shrouding. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 8:02 PM Subject: [PRR] T-1 Tender Lettering, and cut down tender sides >Hello list, > >I actually found the answer to my own question about T-1 tender >lettering. I went through my reference books again, and on page 207 of >Pennsy Steam: A to T, I found a shot of the 5511 in storage on April 4, >1953. Underneath the rust and grime was faintly visible a tender >stripe, so at least this engine retained stripes to the end. > >I also noticed that most of the T-1s had the rear tender sides cut down >by the time they left service. This seems to be progressive; first, >sections were cut out, and then the sides were cut down to the top of >the tank. Unfortunately, it looks to be impossible to duplicate this >with the current Bowser tender. I never saw the old Bowser T-1 kit in >any form, but based on old drawings in their older catalogs, it would be >possible to cut down the tender sides. > >Based on photographs, it appears that the rear tender sides were cut >completely down starting around 1948 (ex, Pennsy Steam, A to T, p 203, >shows the 5513 with cut down sides on display on 10 Sept 1948); can >anyone shed more light on this subject? > >Doug > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s pacifics-colors Doug and Bill, A remark that Bill quoted saying that the Pennsy never painted the smokeboxes silver is questionable. Depending on the shops where the paintings were done the smokebox shade could vary from dark graphite to a bright silver graphite color. I have lots of photos of K4s (700+) and the color extreme in variation is quite obvious. It just depends on the mixture of color they threw together. Actually, off the top of my head, I think it was the Lines East K4s that had a brighter color. But it could have been the other way around where the lines west had more of the silver look. I have to check my photos and take a quick head count. Depends on if you want to weather your loco too. Same as the Cab roof. If you leave it as "just shopped" then a red roof is an option. But a darker color roof, as with a darker smokebox graphite color, seems to be the choice of serious modelers. ...Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor Dam? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 99 09:31:07 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/12/99 8:59 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >> I found this area, open at the time, about 1993...while randomly driving >> around Lancaster County one Sunday afternoon. This was before I got back >> into railroading, and I really didn't know what I was looking at, other >> than the fact that the two level bridge was an awesome scene. Too bad I >> didn't have a camera...the two times I have returned since the gates to >> this area have been locked. > >Ok, so where would this be? There's also a two-level bridge where I was, >but since a) it was below the dam and b) I was below them (literally, the >road goes under) I assume it wasn't the same place, but I'll be happy to >look elsewhere since, well, it's not my end of the state but I've now >found myself roaming Lancaster County 3 times in 2 months, and expect to >at least once more before the end of July. You're at the right place. If you are on the road under the bridges, look upriver. There's a bluff overlooking the dual bridges. It's a beautiful photo spot, but access is usually closed off. I think I have a map that shows the road. Lemme look. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:37:51 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor Dam? >So, I know in one of the Morning Sun books (Pennsy Electric Years, I >think) there's a picture taken looking down over the lot at Safe Harbor >dam, I seem to recall looking at a train and what I seem to recall is the >old A&S bridge there. The lot down by the dam is closed to the public >now, as I discovered today. Was it always? Anyone know how the >photographer got all the way up there for that shot? As has been pointed out, this is shot from the bluff above, which was open last time i went there (3 yrs ago). The shot isn't nearly as easy to get now however, as the trees have grown substantially, and obscure a lot of the view. You do get a nice view of the curved tresle of the Atglen and Susquehanna, now minus tracks, and perhaps slated for demolition soon. Apparently, though, you missed your chance to get to the dam site itself. A friend emailed me a couple of months ago that he had toured the dam during an open house...you might consider trying to fond out when it will be open for tours again! I also recieved a package of plans from a web surfer from of all places HAWAII, complete with drawings of the working parts (I guess there are Dam Fans, just like railfans!) Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] K4 smoke box color Doug, Bill Just took a few minutes and looked through my K4s photos. Although I am not saying this is a fact or written in any painting instructions, but it appears from my photos that the Lines East Locos had a tendency to have the lighter color graphite smokeboxes. Most views are in the Atlantic City and Delaware locales. Baltimore area also shows lots of silver. I did find one in St. Louis and a handful out on the Lines West of Pittsburgh.. There was one in Atlantic City, N.J. that looked so bright you could probably see your reflection. No Kidding! Any other opinions out there as to what particular Enginehouses where known to paint the lighter Graphite color?......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mechanical lubricator application to K4s pacifics Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:42:49 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BECC31.C22F5BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello again... A couple of comments here...PRR never silvered smokeboxes (or fireboxes = for that matter) that I know of...you might want to repaint these. While = you are at it, you might want to redo the red on the cab roof and tank = top as well (although usually it was so sooty, you could barely see the = red!). As for mechanical lubricators...in the early 1962 issue of TRAINS (with = the article on the BROADWAY LIMITED) there is an Al W. Johnson shot of = the BROADWAY at Englewood in the mid 30's...5471 has a mechanical = lubricator applied. So it appears that they were an early application. = Who knows...maybe the 5400's were built with them. Since the builder's = photos are of the fireman's side, they don't show. The Pennsy had to be forced to apply stokers to their larger locomotives = by the ICC in 1930. Due to the depression, a lot of locomotives didn't = have stokers applied, and were required to carry two firemen (a great = financial incentive to apply a stoker). Since the depression caused a = severe downturn in traffic, non-stoker equipped engines were = stored...some never recieved stokers. As for bells...the ONLY correct PRR bell (for most classes) is = Precision's PSHO-3155...all others are incorrect. PRR's bells hunkered = down on the boiler and were mounted on a flat plate. Earlier locomotives = (like H6sb) had the earlier type of yoke. Bill Daniels ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BECC31.C22F5BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello again...
 
A couple of comments here...PRR never silvered = smokeboxes (or=20 fireboxes for that matter) that I know of...you might want to repaint = these.=20 While you are at it, you might want to redo the red on the cab roof and = tank top=20 as well (although usually it was so sooty, you could barely see the=20 red!).
 
As for mechanical lubricators...in the early 1962 = issue of=20 TRAINS (with the article on the BROADWAY LIMITED) there is an Al W. = Johnson shot=20 of the BROADWAY at Englewood in the mid 30's...5471 has a mechanical = lubricator=20 applied. So it appears that they were an early application. Who = knows...maybe=20 the 5400's were built with them. Since the builder's photos are of the = fireman's=20 side, they don't show.
 
The Pennsy had to be forced to apply stokers to = their larger=20 locomotives by the ICC in 1930. Due to the depression, a lot of = locomotives=20 didn't have stokers applied, and were required to carry two firemen (a = great=20 financial incentive to apply a stoker). Since the depression caused a = severe=20 downturn in traffic, non-stoker equipped engines were stored...some = never=20 recieved stokers.
 
As for bells...the ONLY correct PRR bell (for most = classes) is=20 Precision's PSHO-3155...all others are incorrect. PRR's bells hunkered = down on=20 the boiler and were mounted on a flat plate. Earlier locomotives (like = H6sb) had=20 the earlier type of yoke.
 
Bill Daniels
 
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BECC31.C22F5BE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] PRR Stratford Station Fire update Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:48:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BECC43.401BEE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Photos showing the Stratford Station fire show that it began about three = AM in a small kitchenette of a concession operator. SEPTA's 4 Million = dollar estimate to repair may be a little overblown so they are now = saying that they are going to strip away the damaged area and make a = better assessment as to whether or not they will proceed with the = planned restoration project. A trailer has already been set up there = as a substitute station so the fire may have hastened the rehab project. Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BECC43.401BEE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Photos showing the Stratford Station = fire show=20 that it began about three AM in a small kitchenette of a concession=20 operator.  SEPTA's 4 Million dollar estimate to repair may be a = little=20 overblown so they are now saying that they are going to strip away the = damaged=20 area and make a better assessment as to whether or not they will proceed = with=20 the planned restoration project.   A trailer has already been = set up=20 there as a substitute station so the fire may have hastened the rehab=20 project.
 
Bill
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BECC43.401BEE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Great Book for Sale Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:31:14 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BECC49.49622400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have for sale a copy of the 1922 Car Builder's Cyclopedia in excellent = condition. No pages missing or clipped. For those not familiar with these publications, they were (and still = are) put out by Simmons Boardman and the latest (1998) edition sells for = $270.00. The 1922 edition shows all of the freight and passenger cars = of the days plus the various appliances that were used to construct = them. The book goes to the first bid received over $100.00 plus you pay the = shipping costs as the book is 1350 pages! Printed on slick paper. = A real collector's item. If interested, contact me off list at herzog1@gate.net. Bill Volkmer ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BECC49.49622400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have for sale a copy of the 1922 = Car Builder's=20 Cyclopedia in excellent condition. No pages missing or = clipped.
 
For those not familiar with these = publications,=20 they were (and still are) put out by Simmons Boardman and the latest = (1998)=20 edition sells for $270.00.  The 1922 edition shows all of the = freight and=20 passenger cars of the days plus the various appliances that were used to = construct them.
 
The book goes to the first bid = received over=20 $100.00 plus you pay the shipping costs as the book is 1350=20 pages!      Printed on slick paper.   = A real=20 collector's item.
 
If interested, contact me off list = at herzog1@gate.net.
 
Bill = Volkmer
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BECC49.49622400-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks Date: Mon, 12 Jul 99 13:37:58 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/12/99 1:14 PM, Jason Jaquith (jaj165@psu.edu) wrote: >I've heard that Pennsy based a lot of the sharks (RF-16's) out of >Pittsburgh in the 50's. I've see photos of the loco's in Erie after coming >up from Pittsburgh over the E&P. The questions I have are: > >What year did the sharks get based in Pittsburgh? > >Did they also get dispatched on freights between Pittsburgh and Buffalo? Excerpts from my site (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/bp20.html) which does place many of the units in Pittsburgh: "The BP20's were pulled off the best trains with tight schedules. They were relegated to trains such as the Golden Triangle, Steeler, The Union, The Fort Hayes, The Fort Pitt, and other daylight intra-city trains." "From 1949 to 1951, the BP20's handled mail and railway express trains. REX in the 40's and 50's was a big customer of the PRR. The Pittsburgh post office and REX terminal produced over 200 car loads daily for the PRR. The Pennsy ran the sharks on mail and express trains and the many passenger extras from 1950 to 1954. The Korean Conflict saved the passenger sharks from a questionable fate with the surge in passenger business during those early 1950's." "After the Korean Conflict truce was established a trafic decline followed and the BP20's were placed into storage for a short period. Four A-units and four B-units were regeared in 1953 for freight service and horsepower ratings lowered from 2000 HP to 1600 HP. 5784A-5887A, 5780B, 5782B, 5784B, & 5786B were reclassified BF16z." "These units were assigned to the Pittsburgh Division and used in freight transfer service between Shire Oaks, Pitcairn, Conway, and Scully. They worked coal drags to Ashtabula, Cleveland, Columbus, and Dennison, Ohio. The 8 regeared BF16z unit were coupled with other freight BF15 and BF16 sharks. A photo of such a lashup appears in this feature." "A couple BP20's were used briefly for commuter service between Pittsburgh and Derry but the trial was terminated because of visibility complains by the crews. The crews had strong feelings about their Alco RS-3's bought equipped for specific service on the commuter trains in the Pittsburgh area. Not only the problem of visibility but the fact that they units had to be turned on the table at Pittsburgh and at Derry made for extra work. The Alco RS-3's were able to operate in either direction without turning. Many a commuter train returned to the city with its power running in reverse or pushing on the rear. These were mainly late evening trains that returned to the station where they originated early morning runs around four to five a.m...." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Photos of 44 tonners and GP-7s Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:20:30 -0400 A couple of weeks ago, there were requests for photos of GP-7s without dynamic brake and GS-4s (44 tonners) . I have just scanned two photos of each but lost the names and addresses of those requesting them. If you contact me off list I will be glad to e-mail same. Please specify which you would like, GP-7 or 44 tonner. Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:14:20 -0400 From: Jason Jaquith Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks I've heard that Pennsy based a lot of the sharks (RF-16's) out of Pittsburgh in the 50's. I've see photos of the loco's in Erie after coming up from Pittsburgh over the E&P. The questions I have are: What year did the sharks get based in Pittsburgh? Did they also get dispatched on freights between Pittsburgh and Buffalo? Thanks, Jason Jaquith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:52:07 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Tender Lettering, and cut down tender sides >I also noticed that most of the T-1s had the rear tender sides cut down >by the time they left service. This seems to be progressive; first, >sections were cut out, and then the sides were cut down to the top of >the tank. Unfortunately, it looks to be impossible to duplicate this >with the current Bowser tender. I never saw the old Bowser T-1 kit in >any form, but based on old drawings in their older catalogs, it would be >possible to cut down the tender sides. Hi Doug, We had a discussion about this when the revamped kit came out (see the archives), but essentially, the gist was that the old kit, with its brass wrapper tender, represented the tender with cut down sides. The new kit represents the tender as built, however the thick moldings are definitely not appropriate, and the location of the water hatches was moved towards the centerline to accomodate them. This tender would have been quite rare on a loco such as the Bowser model, as the loco would normally have had portholes and full frontal shrouding. The only photo I have ever seen of a loco with the "late" front end and a fully shrouded tender is the builders photo of 5511, and as such may represent a "late" Altoona built loco. Someday (read when I retire maybe) I will scratchbuild the tender with the appropriate brass sides to represent the actual shrouding ! MAybe I will actually finish the rigid frame for the T-1 by then too! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BudPCCRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:46:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Prototype for ancient Athern 40' box The following is a quote from an April 1982 RMC article by Dennis Storzek. In 1942 the AAR standard car was revised with a Dreadnought end like the Athearn car and a 10'6" inside height. The Athearn car is just slightly too low, putting it just about halfway inbetween the 1937 and 1942 designs. You decide. Bud Brock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:43:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks > On 7/12/99 1:14 PM, Jason Jaquith (jaj165@psu.edu) wrote: > > >I've heard that Pennsy based a lot of the sharks (RF-16's) out of [] > Excerpts from my site > (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/bp20.html) which does place > many of the units in Pittsburgh: No, it places many of the BP20s in Pittsburgh, whereas the RF-16s are BF16:-) Presumably there is a BF16 page, right? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Safe Harbor Dam? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:31:46 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 12 Jul, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > So, I know in one of the Morning Sun books (Pennsy Electric Years, I > think) Right. > there's a picture taken looking down over the lot at Safe Harbor > dam, I seem to recall looking at a train and what I seem to recall is the > old A&S bridge there. The lot down by the dam is closed to the public > now, as I discovered today. [ ... ] I have the opportunity to include this scene on my home layout, so I'm curious about something: the parking(?) lot below the bridges has a track with a switch in it. Where do these tracks go? I don't see them on Mark's track diagram of the area. There's another excellent shot, with trains on both bridges, from across or on the river, in the semi-recent Trains Conrail farewell issue. Thanks! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:11:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 smoke box color Hi Guys, Just another observation concerning smoke box colors, as applied to some K-4s. Seventy-one K-4s were leased from the PRR and operated on the LIRR during the time frame 1916-1955. Some of these engines had their smoke boxes painted, what I would best describe as, a flat aluminum color. I do not know where these paint jobs originated. It might have been in the LIRR's Morris Park maintenance facility, or they could possibly have been done at one of the Pennsy's other shops. As a point of interest, K-4 # 5406 spent more time on the LIRR than it did on the PRR. I also noted, at the time, ( and yeah, much to my chagrin, I'm old enough to remember) that many that operated on the LIRR apparently had the fronts of these smokeboxes wiped down and were pretty clean, while the remainder of the area (along the sides) were left covered with grit, grime and streaks of rust. I have one of the Bachmann Spectrum K-4s and, to my mind, it really needs some toning down to make it more realistic and/or prototypical. Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks - Ooops Date: Mon, 12 Jul 99 14:45:17 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/12/99 1:37 PM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >>I've heard that Pennsy based a lot of the sharks (RF-16's) out of >>Pittsburgh in the 50's. I've see photos of the loco's in Erie after coming >>up from Pittsburgh over the E&P. The questions I have are: >> >>What year did the sharks get based in Pittsburgh? >> >>Did they also get dispatched on freights between Pittsburgh and Buffalo? > >Excerpts from my site >(http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/bp20.html) which does place >many of the units in Pittsburgh: >... Okay, I'll kick myself in the behind before y'all get the chance. Jason was clearly asking about the freight sharks and I put my fingers into gear before my brain and was too quick to respond about passenger sharks!!! Obviously a vacation is not a good thing as the mind digresses too much from the subject matter! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s pacifics-colors Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:27:39 -0400 Amen BROTHER. When I was busy painting the Northumberland "fleet" in 1966, my Gang Foreman (Walter Hull) who had painted a number of steam locomotives over his many years, mixed the paint that we put on the smokeboxes, saying "this is how we did it in the years gone by". As I recall he mixed the Brunswick green one to one with silver paint. Not exactly rocket science. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s pacifics-colors Doug and Bill, A remark that Bill quoted saying that the Pennsy never painted the smokeboxes silver is questionable. Depending on the shops where the paintings were done the smokebox shade could vary from dark graphite to a bright silver graphite color. I have lots of photos of K4s (700+) and the color extreme in variation is quite obvious. It just depends on the mixture of color they threw together. Actually, off the top of my head, I think it was the Lines East K4s that had a brighter color. But it could have been the other way around where the lines west had more of the silver look. I have to check my photos and take a quick head count. Depends on if you want to weather your loco too. Same as the Cab roof. If you leave it as "just shopped" then a red roof is an option. But a darker color roof, as with a darker smokebox graphite color, seems to be the choice of serious modelers. ...Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR F-16's List, It is my guess that the sharks (freight) were in the Pittsburgh (Conway anyway) area alot becuase didn't they take over the job of the N-1 2-10-2's on those heavy drags out of Ashtabula and Cleavland Ohio Yards. This would have been well suited because these sharks were known for their low speed without overheating. And thats is what was needed to pull those heavy trains. ........Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Shark Photos Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:06:21 -0400 Well, while we're all blowing diesel horns, MY photo of a 3-unit lash-up of Pennsy Freight Sharks passing Pitcarin Yard is on p. 254 of "Pennsy Power II." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks BF-16zs Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:37:31 -0400 There is a shot I took in at lease one of the Morning Sun Books, possibly more, of a BF-16z at Erie taken by moi. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: Jason Jaquith ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks >On 7/12/99 1:14 PM, Jason Jaquith (jaj165@psu.edu) wrote: > >>I've heard that Pennsy based a lot of the sharks (RF-16's) out of >>Pittsburgh in the 50's. I've see photos of the loco's in Erie after coming >>up from Pittsburgh over the E&P. The questions I have are: >> >>What year did the sharks get based in Pittsburgh? >> >>Did they also get dispatched on freights between Pittsburgh and Buffalo? > >Excerpts from my site >(http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/bp20.html) which does place >many of the units in Pittsburgh: > >"The BP20's were pulled off the best trains with tight schedules. They >were relegated to trains such as the Golden Triangle, Steeler, The Union, >The Fort Hayes, The Fort Pitt, and other daylight intra-city trains." > >"From 1949 to 1951, the BP20's handled mail and railway express trains. >REX in the 40's and 50's was a big customer of the PRR. The Pittsburgh >post office and REX terminal produced over 200 car loads daily for the >PRR. The Pennsy ran the sharks on mail and express trains and the many >passenger extras from 1950 to 1954. The Korean Conflict saved the >passenger sharks from a questionable fate with the surge in passenger >business during those early 1950's." > >"After the Korean Conflict truce was established a trafic decline >followed and the BP20's were placed into storage for a short period. Four >A-units and four B-units were regeared in 1953 for freight service and >horsepower ratings lowered from 2000 HP to 1600 HP. 5784A-5887A, 5780B, >5782B, 5784B, & 5786B were reclassified BF16z." > >"These units were assigned to the Pittsburgh Division and used in freight >transfer service between Shire Oaks, Pitcairn, Conway, and Scully. They >worked coal drags to Ashtabula, Cleveland, Columbus, and Dennison, Ohio. >The 8 regeared BF16z unit were coupled with other freight BF15 and BF16 >sharks. A photo of such a lashup appears in this feature." > >"A couple BP20's were used briefly for commuter service between >Pittsburgh and Derry but the trial was terminated because of visibility >complains by the crews. The crews had strong feelings about their Alco >RS-3's bought equipped for specific service on the commuter trains in the >Pittsburgh area. Not only the problem of visibility but the fact that >they units had to be turned on the table at Pittsburgh and at Derry made >for extra work. The Alco RS-3's were able to operate in either direction >without turning. Many a commuter train returned to the city with its >power running in reverse or pushing on the rear. These were mainly late >evening trains that returned to the station where they originated early >morning runs around four to five a.m...." > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] L&T branch Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:45:14 -0400 During my reighn at Norry (1964-66) the line (Lewisburg & Tyrone)was intact all the way to Bellefonte. However, our guy only went as far as the prison which was about 5 or so miles short of Bellefonte. That was where the Region Post was. We ran Mon. Wed and Fri out that branch and Tues. and Thurs. the same crew went south to the Lykens Valley Branch. We used a 1000 HP Baldwin until the EMD SW-1s got there in 1965. The center section was torn out after the Penn Central took over. There were two tunnels on the line that were in need of maintenance not to mention the track. There was one stretch of 36 miles between grade crossings which I remember well as I nursed an EMD with a hot journal bearing home during the middle of the night after it got hot out at the end of the line. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Michael Bezilla To: Bill Volkmer Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] L&T branch >>Amen BROTHER. When I was busy painting the Northumberland "fleet" in 1966, > >Speaking of Northumberland....Bill, I live on the west end of the Lewisburg >& Tyrone branch, and I was wondering, since you were at Norry in the mid >1960s, if you recall thru service still running over the L&T at that time, >i.e., Norry to Bellefonte & return. Do you recall when the middle section >of this line was taken out of service? I'm quite sure it was before Penn >Central came along. -mike > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:52:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks In a message dated 7/12/99 12:59:38 PM EST, jaj165@psu.edu writes: << I've heard that Pennsy based a lot of the sharks (RF-16's) out of Pittsburgh in the 50's. I've see photos of the loco's in Erie after coming up from Pittsburgh over the E&P. The questions I have are: >> can't actually answer your question - but I have a photo of the Sharks, taken by my brother, eastbound under the Viaduct in Alliance.... Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Safe Harbor Dam? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:11:24 -0400 (EDT) > Dennis Rockwell writes: > > there's a picture taken looking down over the lot at Safe Harbor > > dam, I seem to recall looking at a train and what I seem to recall is the > > old A&S bridge there. The lot down by the dam is closed to the public > > now, as I discovered today. [ ... ] > I have the opportunity to include this scene on my home > layout, so I'm curious about something: the parking(?) lot > below the bridges has a track with a switch in it. Where do > these tracks go? I don't see them on Mark's track diagram > of the area. Because that map is not yet on the site :-) The map that includes Safe Harbor is in the Chesapeake Division set, which I have borrowed from Jon Roma and which John Cooper and I will work on just as soon as we are done with the Chicago Division -- trying to give Lines West equal time here! Let me describe it to you. Sheet 34 is nearly 6 feet long and contains the entire Port Road, so far as I can tell. From NW to SE (RR "west" to "east"), we have PORT interlocking, C&PD Wwd #2 coming off A&S #2 to the "north", then a short distance "east", C&PD #1 coming off A&S #1. Then the duckunder, C&PD #2 under A&S #2 and #1. Next is CRES interlocking, C&PD #1 and #2 joining to make C&PD single main, #1 on the reverse side of the track switch. Chesapeake Region, Maryland Distict starts immediately. This is about M.P. 38.2. Ah, wait, happen to have ETT here at work. MP 38.8 for CRES, MP 38.2 for Division Post. Next is automatic signals C-357 W/B and C-356 E/B. Next is electrically locked switch 255 at ~ MP 33.5, notated as "Safe Harbor Water Power Co. Interchange Trk.", has a hand-op. derail on it. Then a D.E.D. on the main track Then WEST HARBOR interlocking at MP 33.2, West Harbor siding is on the "south" side of hte main track, with Substation No. 55 on the "north" side. Next is Conestoga Creek Undergrade Bridge No. 33.06--32.99. Enough for ya, or do you want some distances? Ooo -- this is an interesting one. Slide protection fences are specifically shown on the map, and there are lots of them! BRUCE, oh BRUCE, are you LISTENING? :-) Here's your big scratch-building chance! Between HARBOR and MCCALLS, 405' and 324'; between HOLTWOOD and MIDWAY, 697', 196', 1855', 255', 715', 141', 419', 190', 769', 1026', 87', 540', 315', 588', and 694'. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:30:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s pacifics-colors In a message dated 7/12/99 1:58:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: > Amen BROTHER. When I was busy painting the Northumberland "fleet" in 1966, > my Gang Foreman (Walter Hull) who had painted a number of steam locomotives > over his many years, mixed the paint that we put on the smokeboxes, saying > "this is how we did it in the years gone by". As I recall he mixed the > Brunswick green one to one with silver paint. Not exactly rocket science. Bill: As I have stated on here many times, my grandfather told me that the Pitcairn shops and Conway shops, mixed powered aluminum with oil and varnish. This was applied and burned to the metal. Theory was that when the powdered aluminum melted it would coat the smoke box and firebox. He also made a point of saying that every engine house foreman did it differently. That is why there was such a wide variation in the color of the smoke boxes and fireboxes. In any case, bright silver is definitely not correct. I have used a variety of paint mixes to get the effect. Currently, I am using a mixture of Floquil gunmetal and grimy black in a 4 to 1 ratio. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Test Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:25:08 -0500 Hi, all, Testing to see if my e-mail server is working right. George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:19:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks Toward the end of their live most of the 4 versions of the sharks were assigned to Conway for maintenance. This allowed all the parts for the often disabled sharks to be stock piled in one location. This did not prevent the use of the sharks in other localities as they were simple sent dead to Conway for repair. Also, please remember that with it location by the 60's Conway was maintaining diesels for the Pittsburgh, Panhandle, Connemaugh, Monongahela, Eastern divisions -- basically all of the central region. That does not mean that diesels were not maintained at other locations only that Conway was physically located at a point which allow maintenance of some of the diesels for all those divisions. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:12:42 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jason Jaquith Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 1:14 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks Following is from PRR reports "Assignment of Diesel Locomotives in Road Freight and Helper Service" from dates specified for Central Region: 3-5-51: Road Freight Service unit assignments were made to four organizations - Enola Pool, Eastern Region, Central Region and Western Region. Helper service units were distributed to West Slope, East Slope, Mt. Vernon and Pitcarin-Derry. Note: In this early locomotive nomenclature system the number following the two alpha manufacturer/service [BF=Baldwin Freight] identifier is the number of individual units, I have shown this along w/ HP in (); 1=A, 2=AA, 3=ABA, 4=ABBA. Regarding the Baldwins, at this time the PRR had 32 Baldwins - 8 BF4 (ABBA), 21 BF3 (ABA) and 3 BP1 (A). Of these the Central Region had 30 Baldwins - 12 BF3 (ABA-4500 HP), 9 BF3 (ABA-4800 HP), 6 BF4 (ABBA-6000 HP) and 3 BP1 (A-6000 HP)[All of the PRR's Baldwin Sharks were in Central Region, two locomotive sets were in the Western Region]. The Central Region Baldwin units were assigned to pools as follows: 2 BF4 Conway-Crestline; 8 BF3 and 3 BP1 Columbus-Pitcarin (the BP1 was footnoted as being assigned to passenger service 12/1/50); 4 BF3 Columbus-Cleveland-Canton; 1 BF3 Cleveland-Mingo Jct. for MC2/MC1; 3 BF3 Cleveland-Cherry St.-Conway; 2 BF3 Ashtabula-Shire Oaks for HS2/HS1; 3 BF3 Conway-Pitcarin-Scully; 4 BF4 Pitcarin-Buffalo and Pitcarin-Shire Oaks-Youngwood. Trains assignments were for various trains unless specified. Obviously this doesn't include the EMD, ALCo and Fairbanks units. The Central Region had 46 locomotive sets of which 30 were Baldwin Sharks. By comparison Enola Pool had 59 loco sets, no Baldwins; Eastern region had 2 loco sets, no Baldwins; and the Western Region had 11 loco sets, 2 Baldwins. 2-15-52: The nomenclature had changed so now the last character (numeric) specified the HP in hundreds. So the BF3 became a BF48, etc. The Central Region Baldwins were now assigned to pools as follows: 4 BF48 Crestline-Canton-Conway Pitcarin; 14 BF45 Mingo Jct.-Pitcarin; 4 BF48 Columbus-Canton-Cleveland; 1 BF32 and 1 BF48 Ashtabula-Canton-Conway-Shire Oaks; 1 BF48 Canton-Erie; 4 BF32 and 1 BF48 Niles-Conway-Wheatland-Erie; 1 BF32 and 6 BF48 Cleveland-Conway-Mingo; 2 BF45 and 1 BF60A Pitcarin-Buffalo. Again the EMD, ALCo and Fairbanks units are not included. The Central Region had 76 locomotive sets of which 40 sets were Baldwin Sharks. By comparison the Eastern Region had 4 locomotive sets, no Baldwins and Western Region had 17 locomotive sets, two of which were Baldwins. Central Region was clearly Shark Country. I do also have unit numbers and what trains were assigned power from what pools from the Central Region 2-15-52 report. However, it is too lengthy to include in this post. If you are interested in specific trains and pools contact me off line and I will try to accommodate you. Al I've heard that Pennsy based a lot of the sharks (RF-16's) out of Pittsburgh in the 50's. I've see photos of the loco's in Erie after coming up from Pittsburgh over the E&P. The questions I have are: What year did the sharks get based in Pittsburgh? Did they also get dispatched on freights between Pittsburgh and Buffalo? Thanks, Jason Jaquith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:06:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks/ legends in their time Jerry and All, I think if you look for mineral trafic you'll find "Sharks". Rugged and hard working they became legends in the art of moving overweight trains. My Father's cousin John Martin worked out of Conway most of his career and he took some time to explain to my brother Greg and I how good the Baldwin "Covered Wagons" were. "You could load them up, with the meter in the red for minutes." "Pretty soon if you'd done your job right they'd begin to move that darn train." John felt the difference between the Baldwin's ablility to move heavy trains and that of other builders lay in the heavy Westinghouse electrial system. Now don't get me wrong they weren't his favorite, in fact he didn't like "Covered Wagons" because of the grade crossing danger, "Baldwin built a good locomotive". Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:51:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Keystones in Columbus Travelling through Columbus, Indiana today, I saw a single track steel plate bridge with the logo: "The Pennsylvania Railroad" and a faded but still quite visible keystone. WOW! Anyone know what line this was? I assume it was just a branchline to serve the Cummins plant there but i'm not sure. The bridge over a creek was on the right adjecent to the main highway (S.R. 46) as you leave town. Anyway, it was a real unexpected treat in Hoosierland! Jay Keese NVNTRAK Alexandria, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLCCR@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:36:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PA RR License Plate Here's a link with a photo of the license plate called the Preserve Our Heritage License Plate: http://www.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Historical_Museum/rrplate.htm It's darker than the Grif Teller painting to provide a better contrast for the plate numbers to stand-out and be readable from a distance. Bob R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Tender Lettering, and cut down tender sides Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:37:28 -0700 Hi all... I just checked out Bowser's webpage and there are several shots of prototype T1's there (on the page describing their HO T1). Amongst the shots is a shot of a late T1 with the "high side" tender...this reminds me not any sweeping generalizations about the Pennsy!!! :-) Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s pacifics-colors List, Rich O. wrote: "In any case, bright silver is definitely not correct" I say, "Never say Never!!! I will scan the K4 photograph that has a SILVER, and I mean SILVER! smokebox. I will place it on my website for all to see. It may be a few days but it will get there. I would never paint a model this bright silver way however. Just looks too "toyish". A darker mixture is the way to go...... Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Prototype for ancient Athern 40' box Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:58:17 -0700 Guys; My understanding is that the Athearn car is modeled after the Santa Fe's Bx-37, which was a 10'4" car. Would stand to reason...Athearn copied several cars from a Santa Fe planbook once published for the Santa Fe by Kalmbach. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:42:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Sharks/ legends in their time Hey Gize, On the same hot summer day in the early seventies, during the same conversation John told us about a particular incident coming "up the (Ohio) river out of Wellsville (Ohio)." He explained that it was winter and the hogger he had realized he was a newbie and just as John would built the fire, by hand by himself mind you, and get the pressure the hogger would look over at John squint and grin and drop his fire. This went on a couple more times and he built the fire up once more. The hogger dumped it again this time on a grade. John then turned to the hogger gave him a squint and a grin and tossed the shovel out of the locomotive and said, "Now you son of a b**ch, you go get it and fire it yourself." He also explained that a Shark "would always seem to move the tonnage, it might be at 2 miles per hour but you could overload her and the darn train would move." Greg Martin << Jerry and All, I think if you look for mineral traffic you'll find "Sharks." Rugged and hard working they became legends in the art of moving overweight trains. My Father's cousin John Martin worked out of Conway most of his career and he took some time to explain to my brother Greg and I how good the Baldwin "Covered Wagons" were. "You could load them up, with the meter in the red for minutes." "Pretty soon if you'd done your job right they'd begin to move that darn train." John felt the difference between the Baldwin's ability to move heavy trains and that of other builders lay in the heavy Westinghouse electoral system. Now don't get me wrong they weren't his favorite, in fact he didn't like "Covered Wagons" because of the grade crossing danger, "Baldwin built a good locomotive." Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:14:27 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Safe Harbor Dam? The tracks in the roadway are what is left of the in-plant railroad. I have a picture somewhere of a Plymouth size loco at Safe Harbor, when it still produced 25 cycle power. I'll check with my father-in-law (worked in the relay dept. of PP&L) to see if he can recall how extensive it was. And don't forget the stream viaducts/bridges over the C&PD. Just one more example of how much engineering the PRR put into the A&S. cos wsbcos.com > Ooo -- this is an interesting one. Slide protection fences are specifically > shown on the map, and there are lots of them! BRUCE, oh BRUCE, are you > LISTENING? :-) Here's your big scratch-building chance! Between HARBOR > and MCCALLS, 405' and 324'; between HOLTWOOD and MIDWAY, 697', 196', 1855', > 255', 715', 141', 419', 190', 769', 1026', 87', 540', 315', 588', and 694'. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:45:04 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystones in Columbus > From: Jpk815@aol.com > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:51:25 EDT > Subject: [PRR] Keystones in Columbus > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Travelling through Columbus, Indiana today, I saw a single track steel plate > bridge with the logo: "The Pennsylvania Railroad" and a faded but still quite > visible keystone. WOW! > > Anyone know what line this was? Louisville & Indiana Railroad. It runs from Indianapolis to Louisville. They use the keystone in the logo for their name. > I assume it was just a branchline to serve > the Cummins plant there but i'm not sure. The bridge over a creek was on the > right adjecent to the main highway (S.R. 46) as you leave town. Anyway, it > was a real unexpected treat in Hoosierland! Proving once again, that there is more than corn in Indiana. :-) > Jay Keese > NVNTRAK > Alexandria, VA Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Evolution of the Freight Sharks made simple (I hope) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:37:00 -0400 In an effort to sort out the whereabouts of the sharks at any given time i shall attempt herewith to sort it out. These are generalities and to pinpoint them exactly would be like trying to hit a moving target but here goes. The exceptions of course were the EH-15s at East Altoona etc. Beginning in 1962 before the first GP-30s were delivered. GP-9 Fleet was at Enola F-7 Fleet divided between Conway and Columbus Sharks were at Columbus and Crestline, possibly a few at Mingo Junction. FAs were based at Shire Oaks 1962-63 delivery of GP-30s and U-25s and DL-640s Some GP-9s went to Conway. F-7s went to Columbus Sharks went to Conway Shire Oaks closed. FAs set aside. Crestline was downsized. 1964 delivery of the GP-35s and SD-35s More GP-9s to Columbus and Conway Sharks to scrap. Columbus downsized. Conway upsized. Again, these are generalities and not absolutes but you can see the pattern. Consolidation and downsizing with the advent of the second generation diesels. The same held true with the switcher power. For instance the Baldwin switchers in Northumberland went to places like Mingo Junction. GP-7s took their place. Geeps showed up in north Jersey and the mu EMD switchers went to the DelMarVa. etc. It was muscical chairs every month as the new power showed up on the main line. Hope this helps just a little. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:41:52 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] L&T branch Bill Volkmer wrote: >During my reighn at Norry (1964-66) the line (Lewisburg & Tyrone)was intact >all the way to Bellefonte. However, our guy only went as far as the prison >which was about 5 or so miles short of Bellefonte. That was where the >Region Post was. Does mean the Bellefonte local worked east only as far as the post? I thought that even in steam days, Bellefonte locals went east beyond the post to the team track at Lemont, the cannery at Centre Hall, etc. The Montandon operator controlled this traffic east of the post, right? -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:52:47 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] [OT]WEBVILLE AND HYPERTEXT RAILROAD I know that Chris has been in the process of moving to a new provider so that is probably the reason for the lack of updates. I know this for a fact as I work for the provider he is moving his site to. One other reason for the lack of updates is that if I remember correctly he had run out of space on the old provider. On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Mike Molloy wrote: >Hi everyone, > >Chris Coleman runs the WEBVILLE AND HYPERTEXT RAILROAD COMPANY >Website. > >Can anyone shed some light on to what happened to this excellent site? >It does not appear to have any update to it for six months or more, >and as there used to be a regular monthly update, I thought it to be a >bit odd. > >It was a source of some very good (US) East Coast Railroad data, >including my introduction to PRR-Talk. > >Regards, > >Mick Molloy > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention Program Expands, Again! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 09:40:03 -0400 From: Jerry While I was away on vacation building a fleet of Bowser cars, Brad Bower (Digital Image Works) was busy coordinating yet another event for the "PRR-Talk" track on Friday at the PRRT&HS Convention in August. Our third event will be as follows: "Rick Tipton: PRRT&HS Member and author, who assisted Brady McGuire with his "KEYSTONE" article on PRR box car paint schemes. Mr. Tipton also member of the informal PRR Cincinnati modelers group as well as a PRR Chat member. Mr. Tipton will present a one hour slide show entitled "Faded Glory remembered of the PRR around Dayton, OH." This is a great treat for our LINES WEST Crew as well as those of us who always wondered what the PRR did west of Conway." The above was previously presented at the LINES WEST FAN FEST this past spring. Please visit the "Cyber Chapter" web site to see our full lineup and to add your name to the list of those planning to attend: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:31:10 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: [PRR] Something funny to break up the day a bit Check out the following link http://www.railfan.net/railpix/ABPR/july99/07-13-99/rf087.jpg Especially the placard on the rear of the tender!!!!! W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Fred Rea Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Fred, please contact me off-list. Sorry to waste the bandwidth, but I ain't got the email address. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 10:58:00 EST Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystones in Columbus I believe that Conrail sold this line to the L&I RR about 5 years ago. I do not know about the type and frequency of traffic it currently has on it. My 2 cents worth! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: rhensley@anderson.cioe.com at Internet Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 12:01 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com at Internet; Jpk815@aol.com at Internet Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystones in Columbus > From: Jpk815@aol.com > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:51:25 EDT > Subject: [PRR] Keystones in Columbus > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Travelling through Columbus, Indiana today, I saw a single track steel plate > bridge with the logo: "The Pennsylvania Railroad" and a faded but still quite > visible keystone. WOW! > > Anyone know what line this was? Louisville & Indiana Railroad. It runs from Indianapolis to Louisville. They use the keystone in the logo for their name. > I assume it was just a branchline to serve > the Cummins plant there but i'm not sure. The bridge over a creek was on the > right adjecent to the main highway (S.R. 46) as you leave town. Anyway, it > was a real unexpected treat in Hoosierland! Proving once again, that there is more than corn in Indiana. :-) > Jay Keese > NVNTRAK > Alexandria, VA Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Evolution of the Freight Sharks made simple (I hope) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:18:52 -0400 I guess I wasn't totally clear in my little summary. When I say Conway or Columbus, I mean MAINTENANCE POINT. That is where they went once a month for "boilerwash". They could easily wander all the way to Enola. THe last shark I ever saw alive was in Northumberland in the spring of 1965. The last FA believe it or not was an FA-1 9602 at Canton in the Spring of 1964. The sharks wandered all over the system. We had a couple assigned regularly to the Cherry Tree turn from Youngstown to Canton as an example. They were regulars on the Mingo Junction coal trains. About the only place you couldn't find them was west of Columbus. West of Crestline and Columbus was strictly EMD country in the post 2nd generation Pennsy. Sharks were semi-regular visitors to Detroit but rarely north of there. The C-liners were remarkably similar to EMDs electrically so after they had their jumpers changed to 27 points they were frequently mued with EMDs until they were sidelined about 1963 or so. Does that help any? Bill -----Original Message----- From: andrew harmantas To: herzog@icanect.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Evolution of the Freight Sharks made simple (I hope) > >SPF Gize, > On the Pennsy, there was ALWAYS the exception. And on a system so large, >the exception could become the rule on a smaller system. > > As to the freight sharks, I saw them dozens of times as I was passing >along US15(?), seeing them either traveling west on the Rockville Bridge, or >sitting still on the bridge, waiting for a line-up into Enola. This was >during the 1955 to 1964 timeframe. > > Never saw a shark anywhere around Enola after 1964. Never saw one a train >unless it was heading a westbound on the bridge, since the power was easily >seen from the highway. If heading an eastbound train, I couldn't tell. And >when I stationed myself trackside at Rockville, Marysville, or Enola, during >the same period, they were few and far between. The only thing rarer were >the FM "C-Liners", yet I did manage two sightings of them on the ready >tracks at Enola (soon to be part of a painting). > >Andrew Harmantas, SPF, from down near C&O Milepost FM Zero. >_____________________________________ > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:23:35 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystones in Columbus > From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com > Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 10:58:00 EST > To: rhensley@anderson.cioe.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, Jpk815@aol.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystones in Columbus > I believe that Conrail sold this line to the L&I RR about 5 years ago. I do not > know about the type and frequency of traffic it currently has on it. > > My 2 cents worth! > > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana They did and the traffic was increasing up until June 1st when CSX found that they could move the traffic around the L&I. L&I has now cut the schedule on several trains. The plus may come IF Amtrak decides to use this line for a run to Louisville. And in case anyone else misunderstood my earlier post, the Pennsy name and keystone is on the bridge at Columbus. It is in respect for the PRR and the track that they laid that the L&I uses a keystone as a part of their logo. Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Evolution of the Freight Sharks made simple (I hope) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:47:11 EDT SPF Gize, On the Pennsy, there was ALWAYS the exception. And on a system so large, the exception could become the rule on a smaller system. As to the freight sharks, I saw them dozens of times as I was passing along US15(?), seeing them either traveling west on the Rockville Bridge, or sitting still on the bridge, waiting for a line-up into Enola. This was during the 1955 to 1964 timeframe. Never saw a shark anywhere around Enola after 1964. Never saw one a train unless it was heading a westbound on the bridge, since the power was easily seen from the highway. If heading an eastbound train, I couldn't tell. And when I stationed myself trackside at Rockville, Marysville, or Enola, during the same period, they were few and far between. The only thing rarer were the FM "C-Liners", yet I did manage two sightings of them on the ready tracks at Enola (soon to be part of a painting). Andrew Harmantas, SPF, from down near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _____________________________________ >In an effort to sort out the whereabouts of the sharks at any given time i >shall attempt herewith to sort it out. These are generalities and to >pinpoint them exactly would be like trying to hit a moving target but here >goes. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention Sunday Plans? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 99 14:09:53 -0400 From: Jerry Now that Division Superintendent Bower has arranged a full slate of seminars for us on Friday...and the society has a nice slate for Saturday...do the attendees want to do anything for Sunday morning as a departure kind of event? I realize that a lot of visitors will want to hit the road to get home, and others will want to go their own way for railfanning... I was pondering, though, a get-together at The Curve on Sunday morning for a group photo in front of the GP9 (or is it a 7, I don't recall). To really stretch things, I thought I could seek -- you don't get it if you don't ask -- permission to take a portable grill to the picnic area inside The Curve. I could cook up some breakfast fajitas or something. The museum has been extremely helpful and very easy to work with. Since The Curve already has picnic tables, etc., it may not be asking too much to add a grill for an organized event. To quote one subscriber's e-mail signature, we could have the "I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning" breakfast meet (or would that be 'meat')! Your thoughts? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:00:47 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Safe Harbor Dam? Dennis Rockwell wrote: >I have the opportunity to include this scene on my home >layout, so I'm curious about something: the parking(?) lot >below the bridges has a track with a switch in it. Where do >these tracks go? I don't see them on Mark's track diagram >of the area. Cool...I hope that the bridges at Safe Harbor will be a centerpiece of my layout too! As The switch leads southbound off the C&PD just north of the passing siding that makes the C&PD 2 track over Conestoga Creek, heads downgrade to a switchback (with the tail under the C&PD bridge over Conestoga Creek), which then heads back upriver to the Safe Harbor Dam. The lead was used to deliver equipment to the dam (Safe Harbor Water Power Co. Interchange Trk - as noted by Mark) There is an excellent photo in "Under Pennsy Wires", page 244, shot from a fan trip on the A&S bridge that shows these tracks. >There's another excellent shot, with trains on both bridges, >from across or on the river, in the semi-recent Trains >Conrail farewell issue. Other shots of the bridges at Safe Harbor: The Keystone Volume 27, number 1: p56 (road test the E44) - from the A&S looking North Volume 27, number 1: p57 (road test the E44) - from the C&PD looking North Volume 27, number 4: p14 - under construction Volume 27, number 4: p20 - from the the A&S, looking North, demo electric #1975 Volume 27, number 4: p21 - from the the A&S (?) looking North America's Railroads, the 2nd Generation, Don Ball, p 80, - from the C&PD looking South, GG1 4935 on fan trip with Amtrak equipment on the C&PD Video - Under the Catenary, vol 6 - several excellent series shot from the river or the opposite shore of E44 and E33 powered trains on the C&PD and A&S And finally, a postcard view, before the wires went up from my web pages: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/SafeHarbor.JPEG Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] Broad Street Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:24:23 -0400 Back in the 10's , 20's, and 30's what route did PRR trains use to reach Broad Street station? What towers where located along this line? -Josh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Sunday Plans? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Jerry scribit: > Now that Division Superintendent Bower has arranged a full slate of > seminars for us on Friday...and the society has a nice slate for > Saturday...do the attendees want to do anything for Sunday morning as a > departure kind of event? Jerry, in years prior to the last one in Lancaster, home layout tours were often/usually arranged, as a "while your on your way home" "do it yourself tour" kind of thing. Unfortunately, this has tended to be a very last-minute thing, often, but I would first check with the Society as to what they're planning (Fred Schaefer, in particular -- if I've spelled his name right.) BTW, you want Lines East bias? After the Pittsburgh convention 3 years ago, *ALL* of the models to be toured were east of the convention site. Clearly no one west of Monroeville models PRR. :-) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Neil Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Sunday Plans? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:04:48 -0400 Sounds good to me Jerry, depending on how late Saturday runs you may want to add Death Dogs to the menu. Neil -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 2:26 PM Subject: [PRR] Convention Sunday Plans? >Now that Division Superintendent Bower has arranged a full slate of >seminars for us on Friday...and the society has a nice slate for >Saturday...do the attendees want to do anything for Sunday morning as a >departure kind of event? > >I realize that a lot of visitors will want to hit the road to get home, >and others will want to go their own way for railfanning... > >I was pondering, though, a get-together at The Curve on Sunday morning >for a group photo in front of the GP9 (or is it a 7, I don't recall). > >To really stretch things, I thought I could seek -- you don't get it if >you don't ask -- permission to take a portable grill to the picnic area >inside The Curve. I could cook up some breakfast fajitas or something. >The museum has been extremely helpful and very easy to work with. Since >The Curve already has picnic tables, etc., it may not be asking too much >to add a grill for an organized event. To quote one subscriber's e-mail >signature, we could have the "I love the smell of brakeshoes in the >morning" breakfast meet (or would that be 'meat')! > >Your thoughts? > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Evolution of the Freight Sharks made simple (I hope) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:23:31 EDT >I guess I wasn't totally clear in my little summary. No, you were quite clear. My reading was a bit fuzzy. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Evolution of the Freight Sharks made simple (I hope) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:31:36 -0400 The Delmarva was strictly the Baldwin 1200 HP units with the trainphone antennae. They were transferred to Northumberland in 1965 and I rejected them as being unfit for service. That is when they transferred the 4 GP-7s and 4 SW-7ms. I don't remember where they reassigned the Baldwin mu switchers. If the sharks made it down to Delmarva land, it was on rare occasions. -----Original Message----- From: bubbles@visi.net To: Bill Volkmer Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Evolution of the Freight Sharks made simple (I hope) > > Hello Bill... > > I'm not sure...but i seem to recall that some of the sharks > went to the Delmarva. This was in the 1963-65 time frame. > I read this somewhere....I'll get back to you on it. > > Hank Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Sunday Plans? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:06:37 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Bej Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 4:03 PM To: Jerry Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Sunday Plans? Mark said> BTW, you want Lines East bias? After the Pittsburgh convention 3 years ago, *ALL* of the models to be toured were east of the convention site. Clearly no one west of Monroeville models PRR. :-) ====================================== I don't know about that - but some of us east of PHILADELPHIA model Lines West!!! Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] lionel MU conversion Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:22:28 -0400 Has anyone on this list ever attempted to convert a Lionel madison car or Lionel MPC coach(the ones that look like P70's)to a MP54 MU? I would like to give our coaches a MU-dectimy and would like tips on how to do so. Thanks. -Josh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:23:25 -0400 No one west of Monroeville models PRR? Did you ever hear of Hugh Debbertine of West Covina, California. HE is MR. PRR!!!!! Bil -----Original Message----- From: Alan Buchan To: Mark Bej ; Jerry Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 8:30 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Sunday Plans? >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Bej >Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 4:03 PM >To: Jerry >Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Sunday Plans? > >Mark said> > >BTW, you want Lines East bias? After the Pittsburgh convention 3 years ago, >*ALL* of the models to be toured were east of the convention site. Clearly >no one west of Monroeville models PRR. :-) >====================================== > >I don't know about that - but some of us east of PHILADELPHIA model Lines >West!!! > >Al > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Broad Street Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Thomas K. Trower scribit: > > Back in the 10's , 20's, and 30's what route did PRR trains use to reach Broad Street station? What towers where located along this line? > The tracks were just south of the present-day tracks to Suburban Station and were elevated, not underground. The long viaduct / retaining wall led to the "Chinese Wall" moniker. Removal of Broad St. Station and its trackage was much delayed by the Depression and WW II, and once removed, a significant amount of real estate was freed for development, leading to the present-day Penn Center addresses. The entire history is well described in 2 books put out by the Philadelphia Chapter (if they're still available) named _The Philadelphia Improvements_. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 13:21:05 -0400 From: Jerry Atlas recently announced that their next run of their RS-1 will include two PRR numbers. They are due around August 30th. I have verified the numbers as two RS-1's the PRR purchased in 1950, class AS10am. Question: Is the Atlas model a good representation of the PRR units? I think their "Classic Series" -- of which this is part -- is generally regarded as good. Is it on par with P2K? Bachmann Spectrum maybe? BTW: "You know who" is accepting advance reservations! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:12:10 -0400 The Pennsy had several AS-10am units and all but two had friction journal bearings and mu on rear only. Two units 8484 and 8485 had mu on both ends and roller bearings. These were used in 3 unit sets on the Rochester Branch out of Olean until it was abandoned. The units stayed in the Olean - Buffalo area because the PRR went to Rochester via the LV for some years thereafter. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 1:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 >Atlas recently announced that their next run of their RS-1 will include >two PRR numbers. They are due around August 30th. I have verified the >numbers as two RS-1's the PRR purchased in 1950, class AS10am. > >Question: Is the Atlas model a good representation of the PRR units? > >I think their "Classic Series" -- of which this is part -- is generally >regarded as good. Is it on par with P2K? Bachmann Spectrum maybe? > >BTW: "You know who" is accepting advance reservations! > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Bill Volkmer: > > > No one west of Monroeville models PRR? Did you ever hear of Hugh > > Debbertine of West Covina, California. HE is MR. PRR!!!!! Tom Vondruska: > > And just where is Monroeville? Ed Martin lives in Las Vegas, Nev., Greg > > Martin lives in Salem, Ore. and both are prolific authors of PRR modeling > > articles. Claus Schlund is in San Francisco and casts N scale parts for PRR > > Prototypes. Rick Tipton is in Louis and I am just south of Springfield Ohio > > and we're both doing different parts ofd the PRR Columbus Division. Bill Volkmer scribit: > Unfortunately Monroeville is on the Bessemer and Lake Erie. It is on the > eastern extremeties of the Pittsburgh metropolitan region and is near the > point where the Penna. Turnpike crosses over the Allegheny River. If you > live west of E. Jesus you've probably never heard of the place. Tom, the reason for your confusion is that the thread got corrupted. It started with a discussion of the Sunday of the convention, and what to do; I added that Sunday is usually layout tours, if any are set up. I then complained that there is a Lines East (or at least a Philadelphia) bias even with layout tours, as exemplified by the Monroeville convention (now 3 years ago), when all the models to be visited were _east_ of Monroeville, and none were west or north. For, as you know, no one from the latter areas comes to PRRTHS conventions. Hope that's clearer. The only connection between PRR and Monroeville is that the convention was held there. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:03:19 -0400 Unfortunately Monroeville is on the Bessemer and Lake Erie. It is on the eastern extremeties of the Pittsburgh metropolitan region and is near the point where the Penna. Turnpike crosses over the Allegheny River. If you live west of E. Jesus you've probably never heard of the place. -----Original Message----- From: LINESWEST@aol.com To: herzog@icanect.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? >In a message dated 7/14/99 12:55:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >herzog1@gate.net writes: > ><< No one west of Monroeville models PRR? Did you ever hear of Hugh >Debbertine > of West Covina, California. HE is MR. PRR!!!!! > >> >And just where is Monroeville? Ed Martin lives in Las Vegas, Nev., Greg >Martin lives in Salem, Ore. and both are prolific authors of PRR modeling >articles. Claus Schlund is in San Francisco and casts N scale parts for PRR >Prototypes. Rick Tipton is in Louis and I am just south of Springfield Ohio >and we're both doing different parts ofd the PRR Columbus Division. > >Tom V. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:00:54 -0400 I haven't seen a Atlas Classic Series RS-1 so can't tell. The AS-10am class did not have a steam generator, does the model? You have to become a certified Diesel Spotter if you're going to be in the club. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: Bill Volkmer ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 >On 7/14/99 2:12 PM, Bill Volkmer (herzog1@gate.net) wrote: > >>The Pennsy had several AS-10am units and all but two had friction journal >>bearings and mu on rear only. Two units 8484 and 8485 had mu on both ends >>and roller bearings. > >Okay, so how does the Atlas Classic RS-1 fare against this? > >You provided information, but didn't answer the question! > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:07:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? In a message dated 7/14/99 12:55:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: << No one west of Monroeville models PRR? Did you ever hear of Hugh Debbertine of West Covina, California. HE is MR. PRR!!!!! >> And just where is Monroeville? Ed Martin lives in Las Vegas, Nev., Greg Martin lives in Salem, Ore. and both are prolific authors of PRR modeling articles. Claus Schlund is in San Francisco and casts N scale parts for PRR Prototypes. Rick Tipton is in Louis and I am just south of Springfield Ohio and we're both doing different parts ofd the PRR Columbus Division. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:21:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jerry wrote: > Atlas recently announced that their next run of their RS-1 will include > two PRR numbers. They are due around August 30th. I have verified the > numbers as two RS-1's the PRR purchased in 1950, class AS10am. > > Question: Is the Atlas model a good representation of the PRR units? > > I think their "Classic Series" -- of which this is part -- is generally > regarded as good. Is it on par with P2K? Bachmann Spectrum maybe? It's one of the old Kato Atlas engines, now with Chinese drive. Some of the detail is somewhat crude, since it's molded on, but it's credible, and with some detailing is a good representation of what the Pennsy had, at least from what I recall from when I looked at it. It's good, but not P2K good. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:40:46 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer To: jbreon ; Bill Volkmer Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 >Oh really? I tried to convince many an engineer of that fact and they said >they swore they'd seen a rubber band drive down underneath! > >On the Centipedes they told me that those locomotives could pass their >illnesses along to other makes and models without even being coupled onto >them! > >Bill >-----Original Message----- >From: jbreon >To: Bill Volkmer >Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 3:14 PM >Subject: Fw: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 > > >>>Okay, so how does the Atlas Classic RS-1 fare against this? >>> >>>You provided information, but didn't answer the question! >> >>Bill, >> Maybe you should point out to Jerry Britton that Pennsy's AS-10am's >>were actually much larger (about 87 times larger) and had a diesel engine >>under the hood rather than a small electric motor. You could also point out >>that there was not much plastic used in the construction of Pennsy's units. >>:>) >>Jerry Breon >> >> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 15:48:43 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/14/99 3:21 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >It's one of the old Kato Atlas engines, now with Chinese drive. Some of >the detail is somewhat crude, since it's molded on, but it's credible, and >with some detailing is a good representation of what the Pennsy had, at >least from what I recall from when I looked at it. It's good, but not P2K >good. Hmmmm, has a P2K price! Retail is $94.95, but Walthers sells it for $94.95. ;-) Suppose I ought to snag one for myself for "representation" reasons! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 14:37:11 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/14/99 2:12 PM, Bill Volkmer (herzog1@gate.net) wrote: >The Pennsy had several AS-10am units and all but two had friction journal >bearings and mu on rear only. Two units 8484 and 8485 had mu on both ends >and roller bearings. Okay, so how does the Atlas Classic RS-1 fare against this? You provided information, but didn't answer the question! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 16:30:00 EST Subject: RE: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 If the Altas RS-1 is identical to the one that came out in the '80's, I have the following observations: The body shell is very close to the PRR prototypes. I do not have it in front of me, but I think that the Atlas RS-1 does not have a steam generator. That can be added onto the shell without much difficulty. I do not think that mu was part of the Atlas unit and that too can be added. The one major deficiency that the shell has is the absence of a (battery?) box on the short hood, right hand side of the hood unit. (I think it is on that corner of the engine) The handrail stantions would also be effected on that corner of the engine. However, I think that the RS-1 without the battery box modification but with the trainphones would still be very passable in most Pennsy circles. The two that I own have the molded on handgrabs and piping; I am not planning on replacing them. I am probably not going to add the battery box that I just went on a tangent about. I will just model them with the trainphones and some weathering. Still, I think that the Atlas RS-1 is a pretty good engine for someone to start with for either the "base unit " or a superdetailed version. Ted -----Original Message----- From: "Bill Volkmer" at Internet Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 2:49 PM To: jerry@dsop.com at Internet; herzog@icanect.net at Internet; prr-talk@dsop.com at Internet Subject: RE: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 I haven't seen a Atlas Classic Series RS-1 so can't tell. The AS-10am class did not have a steam generator, does the model? You have to become a certified Diesel Spotter if you're going to be in the club. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: Bill Volkmer ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 >On 7/14/99 2:12 PM, Bill Volkmer (herzog1@gate.net) wrote: > >>The Pennsy had several AS-10am units and all but two had friction journal >>bearings and mu on rear only. Two units 8484 and 8485 had mu on both ends >>and roller bearings. > >Okay, so how does the Atlas Classic RS-1 fare against this? > >You provided information, but didn't answer the question! > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:05:37 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com To: Bill Volkmer ; jerry@dsop.com ; herzog@icanect.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 >If the Altas RS-1 is identical to the one that came out in the '80's, I have the >following observations: > >The body shell is very close to the PRR prototypes. I do not have it in front of >me, but I think that the Atlas RS-1 does not have a steam generator. I believe that not all of the PCo's RS-1's were steam generator equipped...but since my copy of PENNSY POWER II went south a couple of years ago, I can't be sure. > >The one major deficiency that the shell has is the absence of a (battery?) box Actually, the "battery box" is in reality a ATC box. At least the shot of 5906 in PPIII has one in front of the engineer. But it dosen't have mu connections...hence it is class ARS10s. Bill Daniels Tucson AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:53:35 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Running qualities of Atlas Classic RS-1 Hello list, In regards to the recent posts about the Atlas RS-1s, they run nicely. My pair (I purchased a pair of undecorated models for service on my future New York and Long Branch; the CNJ used them for freight service on the New Jersey Southern division) start moving at 1.5 volts and I'd hardly consider them broken in. There's a little gear noise, but they're quieter than my Spectrum GP-30s. With the shell on, they weigh 16 ounces, if my postal scale can be believed. I don't have enought track to test them with a heavy load, but they draw about .4 amp slipping, and about 1.0 amp stalled (plan your DCC receiver installations accordingly). I believe Digitrax has a decoder board for this specific locomotive; other companies may as well. The only downside are the cast-on grabirons; I sanded them off to make it easier to apply decals; I drilled holes for wire replacements. One dumb mistake on my part; I purchased the friction bearing version by mistake (wrong for my CNJ prototypes). However, it was easily rectified; four roller bearing sideframes cost $3.60 ($.90 ea) from Atlas, and they were easy to replace. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:23:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Advice for Painting Brass From: "Doug and Marianne" I have an unpainted brass N Scale Rb50 by NJ and I need some advice on how to paint it. The first step I assume is to wash it with a mild soap. Should I then use a primer? Should the primer be grey? I've gotten good results on plastic with Badger Accuflex (now Modelflex) water base paint. Is this paint good for brass? If anyone is familiar with this paint, what is the best color for tuscan passenger cars? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks. Doug N. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:11:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? Gize, If Hugh Debbertine is Mr. PRR I am going to model the New York Central! I refuse to belittle him personally. I vote for DR PENNSY Richard Berg, he's the man, but he is not a modeler! Just want you to know that my article on the H-10-44 or FS-10 in Mainline Modeler. Feed your head! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:06:56 -0500 Thanks, Jerry, for opening up this topic. I am about to begin work on an RS-1 for another PRR modeler using the original Atlas. I have not examined an Atlas Classic RS-1, but I expect that it is the same situation as the GP-7: identical shells with slightly different drives, but with what I believe is the same Kato motor. Incidently, the Classic GP-7 runs faster than the original Atlas, making MU ops difficult without DCC. The book, "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 1 - ALCo RS series" by John D. Hahn, seems to be the definitive resource on PRR RS-1's, which came in a wide variety of configurations, with/without steam generators, MU capability, and train phones. As always, select a photo of a specific prototype. The cast on grabirons and lift rings are easy enough to carve off and replace with wire parts. For train phone equipped models use CalScale 190-407 Antenna Supports and 190-391 "Radio" Transmitter. The horn was mounted in various places; I am using a single horn installed above the center of the front window. The most challenging addition is the equipment box located just ahead of the cab on the engineer's side (long hood forward) on most RS-1's. For this I am using Custom Finishes 245-247 Optional Equipment Box, intended for the left side of the RS-3. A piece for the front end of the box must be fabricated. Smokey Valley 676-44 Handrail Kit is a very nice way to make the handrails go up and over that equipment box as well as provide a realistically sized handrail for the HO sized crew. An additional difficulty is the lack of photos of the short hood of these engines to properly model steam generator equipment. The last two RS-1's, 8485 and 8486, besides being the only ones equipped with roller bearing trucks as Bill mentioned, were the only ones equipped with over-and-under dual headlights. These could be modeled by shaving off the headlight plastic casting and installing Detail Associates 229-1012 Conversion Plates on each end. These two locomotives also did not have train phones. With Hahn's book and Bill Volkmer's knowledge, SPF's have a wealth of info. Now if only the soon to be released Soundtraxx decoder with ALCo noises would fit somehow into that narrow hood........ Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:48:03 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice for Painting Brass From: "Doug and Marianne" Correction: What I meant to say was an R50b (express reefer). Thanks. > >Doug N. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:14:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Steve, I think you are right on track with the exception of the ATC box on the fireman's side towards the long hood. A scratch built box from .015" styrene with a .005" detailed overlay would work better. Don't forget that MDC offers the ALCo style handrail stanchions separately from the RS-3 kit as well as the battery box steps. There are other differences between the Atlas model and the actual PRR fleet to make me decide not to model it in my favorite road and put mine in Santa Fe... YIKES! One thing is it need constant directional lighting. My understanding is that when the GP-7, RS-1, And the S-2 were originally released they were as product of ROCO, so said RMJ. Evidence being the entire underframes being metal, the different blackened metal wheels, different speed range on the motors. Well, that is my take on this little bad boy. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:26:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Atlas Classic RS-1 I saw at least one report on rec.models.railroad indicating the molded-on blobs on the RS-3 had been replaced with wire grabs, so it's at least conceivable the RS-1 also had individual grabs. Finding pictures onthe Atlas web site or more info there might be useful (but right now I can't) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:16:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 B&D The X29B and X29D have not been released. The dies have been returned to the die cutter numerous times because they can't get the rivet pattern and rivet size correct. Last I heard the dies had been recut so many times that they may need to be scraped and start all over. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] National Archives Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:14:56 -0500 Hi, all, I had an opportunity to use the National Archives in College Park, MD to research PRR material in the ICC Valuation collection. I was very impressed, especially with the property maps, which were done at a scale of 1" = 100' - very detailed. I had the maps for the Middle Division pulled (Val section 7.1) and had copies made. Every inch of track is there - also the remains of the Pennsylvania Canal, since the PRR owned it when the maps were done c.1917. The yards at Mifflin and Lewistown were particularly good. There is also a map group just of Enola Yard which I did not have time to view. If anyone would like more detailed info on what's to be found and how to access it, contact me off-list and I'll e-mail you the details. George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:27:05 -0400 Without having a photo of a Pennsy RS-1 in front of me, I suspect the "battery box' you are referring to might in fact be a cab signal box like what rode on the pilot of the K-4s etc. -----Original Message----- From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com To: Bill Volkmer ; jerry@dsop.com ; herzog@icanect.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 >If the Altas RS-1 is identical to the one that came out in the '80's, I have the >following observations: > >The body shell is very close to the PRR prototypes. I do not have it in front of >me, but I think that the Atlas RS-1 does not have a steam generator. That can be >added onto the shell without much difficulty. > >I do not think that mu was part of the Atlas unit and that too can be added. > >The one major deficiency that the shell has is the absence of a (battery?) box >on the short hood, right hand side of the hood unit. (I think it is on that >corner of the engine) The handrail stantions would also be effected on that >corner of the engine. > >However, I think that the RS-1 without the battery box modification but with the >trainphones would still be very passable in most Pennsy circles. The two that I >own have the molded on handgrabs and piping; I am not planning on replacing >them. I am probably not going to add the battery box that I just went on a >tangent about. I will just model them with the trainphones and some weathering. > >Still, I think that the Atlas RS-1 is a pretty good engine for someone to start >with for either the "base unit " or a superdetailed version. > >Ted > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Bill Volkmer" at Internet >Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 2:49 PM >To: jerry@dsop.com at Internet; herzog@icanect.net at Internet; >prr-talk@dsop.com at Internet >Subject: RE: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 > > >I haven't seen a Atlas Classic Series RS-1 so can't tell. The AS-10am >class did not have a steam generator, does the model? > >You have to become a certified Diesel Spotter if you're going to be in the >club. > >Bill >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerry >To: Bill Volkmer ; prr-talk@dsop.com >Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 2:56 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 > > >>On 7/14/99 2:12 PM, Bill Volkmer (herzog1@gate.net) wrote: >> >>>The Pennsy had several AS-10am units and all but two had friction journal >>>bearings and mu on rear only. Two units 8484 and 8485 had mu on both >ends >>>and roller bearings. >> >>Okay, so how does the Atlas Classic RS-1 fare against this? >> >>You provided information, but didn't answer the question! >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS >> >>"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >>Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >>products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >>the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >>Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >>providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >>our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >> >>This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! >>------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- >> >> >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:43:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice for Painting Brass Doug, most people recommend bead blasting brass before painting. I haven't done this yet but I've got several PSC cabooses and a few freightcars that I want to paint. I would try blasting at a low, 30-40 psi, If I decide to go this route. Also with brass you have the option of baking the paint on, assuming you don't have any plastic parts attached. FWIW Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] National Archives Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 10:22:06 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/15/99 10:14 AM, George N Pierson (george.pierson@trnty.edu) wrote: > >I had an opportunity to use the National Archives in College Park, MD to >research PRR material in the ICC Valuation collection. I was very >impressed, especially with the property maps, which were done at a scale of >1" = 100' - very detailed. I had the maps for the Middle Division pulled >(Val section 7.1) and had copies made. Every inch of track is there - also >the remains of the Pennsylvania Canal, since the PRR owned it when the maps >were done c.1917. The yards at Mifflin and Lewistown were particularly >good. There is also a map group just of Enola Yard which I did not have >time to view. This sounds like the valuation maps I just received from Craig Bowman. I just scanned "Sheet 3" of Harrisburg which is in the same scale. I have "Sheet 2", but it is a blueprint (harder to read) and has been reduced to 1"=200'. Craig is sending me three sheets covering Enola. > >If anyone would like more detailed info on what's to be found and how to >access it, contact me off-list and I'll e-mail you the details. George, why not share it on-list? I know I would be interested in the process and how much they charge for prints. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic RS-1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 09:41:39 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/15/99 8:26 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >I saw at least one report on rec.models.railroad indicating the molded-on >blobs on the RS-3 had been replaced with wire grabs, so it's at least >conceivable the RS-1 also had individual grabs. Finding pictures onthe >Atlas web site or more info there might be useful (but right now I can't) Following in the steps of the PRRT&HS web site(*), the Atlas web site hasn't even announced the new road names! They show only the first run, of which all but one remote road name is sold out. *Remember the two-plus year old PRRT&HS site? Many of us were excited that a new site was created following the last convention. They kept after it for awhile, but now it hasn't been touched in four months. Though I don't put the time into my site as I used to, at least I keep dated material up-to-date. Too bad. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:23:04 -0700 Greg and all... While it is true that the original S-2/4 was done by Roco, the GP-7 and RS-1 were actually done by Kato. The metal frame came about due to the fact that the earlier Kato efforts (RS-3/RSC-3/RS-11/RSC-11 and Century series) had plastic frames...which bent under moderate stress. BTW...what is the deal with Mr Deberthine...I recall that he was once quite a fixture in PRR circles, apparently with mixed results. Bill Daniels Tucson AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:14:18 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] X29 B&D Over two years ago E&BT claimed to be working on HO kits for X29b and X29d box cars. Test shots were supposedly shown in some magazine. Has anyone heard of them since? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:46:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Bill Daniels wrote: > Greg and all... > > While it is true that the original S-2/4 was done by Roco, the GP-7 and RS-1 > were actually done by Kato. The metal frame came about due to the fact that > the earlier Kato efforts (RS-3/RSC-3/RS-11/RSC-11 and Century series) had > plastic frames...which bent under moderate stress. You mean RSD-4/5 and RSD-12 rather than the RSCs. The RSC-2 from Kato recently was the first plastic RSC-anything. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:43:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic RS-1 In a message dated 7/15/99 9:54:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << I saw at least one report on rec.models.railroad indicating the molded-on blobs on the RS-3 had been replaced with wire grabs, so it's at least conceivable the RS-1 also had individual grabs. Finding pictures onthe Atlas web site or more info there might be useful (but right now I can't) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- Hi Guys, The new RS-1s have molded-on grabs, at least the first run did. I have a couple of them in the LIRR paint scheme. The paint job on these, I would rate as "very good". The lettering is also very crisp. They are also quiet and smooth runners. I did notice however, that the headlights are very dim (as in off) when run at low speeds. You really have to 'juice em' to light them up. Now, we'll have to see what the Atlas version of DGLE is! Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 B&D Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 11:26:19 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/15/99 9:14 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: >Over two years ago E&BT claimed to be working on HO kits for X29b and >X29d box cars. Test shots were supposedly shown in some magazine. Has >anyone heard of them since? On 7/15/99 10:16 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >The X29B and X29D have not been released. The dies have been returned to >the >die cutter numerous times because they can't get the rivet pattern and rivet >size correct. Last I heard the dies had been recut so many times that they >may need to be scraped and start all over. I'm not sure about the status of the E&BT projects...nor am I sure of what subclass the X29 was with the dreadnaught ends, perhaps one of the two in question. Anyway, Red Caboose will be shipping this month the X-29 with 1928 body and dreadnaught ends in Circle Keystone livery. I announced this a while back on the "Merchandise Announce" list as I am taking advance reservations. There are 12 road numbers available. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:48:03 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 B&D Jerry wrote: > > I'm not sure about the status of the E&BT projects...nor am I sure of > what subclass the X29 was with the dreadnaught ends, perhaps one of the > two in question. > Neither. In 1952(B) and again in 1955(D) the PRR rebuilt several thousand X29s. They cut the original car body completely off and built a new body on the old frame and trucks. The new bodies looked almost like an AAR std car of the early 50s. The give-away is at the floor sill. The AAR std car was 10' wide, while the X29 was 9' something. To but the wide body on the narrow frame they had to build out the old frame with a 'Z' bar. This is very visible at the base of the car body. The only car on the HO market with this feature is the Tichy P,McK & Y USRA rebuild. Sunshine offered a new floor for C&BT AAR bodies some time ago, but that route produced $30 car and I need several. Along with X43s, X29Bs and Ds dominated the PRR box car fleet in the 50s. The X29D was the only car to carry the popular "Don't stand me still' logo. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 B&D In a message dated 7/15/99 11:44:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << I'm not sure about the status of the E&BT projects...nor am I sure of what subclass the X29 was with the dreadnaught ends, perhaps one of the two in question. >> The products were announced by C&BT Shops. Both the X29B and X29D are rebuilds of the X29. The X29B used the underframe of the X29 and had a new body. Basically it is the 1944 AAR car on an X29 frame. THe X29D was a continuation of the rebuild program but has overhanging roof and wider doors. End is also different from the X29B. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:12:30 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 >You mean RSD-4/5 and RSD-12 rather than the RSCs. The RSC-2 from Kato >recently was the first plastic RSC-anything. > >-D > Geeze...you're right. Serves me right for writing the reply at 5 in the morning. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Deberthine (was [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 11:30:04 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/15/99 9:23 AM, Bill Daniels (billd@gci-net.com) wrote: >BTW...what is the deal with Mr Deberthine...I recall that he was once quite >a fixture in PRR circles, apparently with mixed results. Via lister Craig Bowman, Hugh Deberthine got in touch with me about a month ago. His company, The P Company, was very active in the PRR market at one time. He sent me a ton of his PRR pipe fence to sell (see my eStore, if interested) and indicated an interest in getting back into the brass importation business. He is not online and I have no idea what his first project(s) might be. We have communicated several times over recent weeks. I'll let you know if anything develops! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. This month: Athearn locos and cars on special! ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "walt prusick" Subject: [PRR] BS16m (Stewart Hobbies AS16) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:52:06 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BECEEA.C0E736C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thinking about converting an AS16 into a BS16m. The correct truck = sideframes are available from Stewart, but which Athearn (?) power truck = do they fit? To my untrained eye, looking at PPII, that should take of = the major external diferences between the two series. Any comments? Walt ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BECEEA.C0E736C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thinking about converting an AS16 = into a BS16m.=20 The correct truck sideframes are available from Stewart, but which = Athearn (?)=20 power truck do they fit?  To my untrained eye, looking at PPII, = that should=20 take of the major external diferences between the two series.  Any=20 comments?
 
Walt
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BECEEA.C0E736C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas Classic Series RS-1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:57:38 -0500 Greg and everyone else interested who is interested in the RS-1 thread: I got bleary eyed late last night and transposed a couple of numbers on the Custom Finishes Optional Equipment Box; the correct number is 247-245. Greg, none of the RS-1 pictures in the Hahn book show any kind of box on the fireman's side. Appreciate the info on the MDC parts, but I have the Smokey Valley parts, including the Y shaped end stanchions; very nice. I have the original Atlas RS-1 in front of me, and the frame is definitely all metal; it even says KATO, "Made in Japan". Glad to hear you have another article published. As always I look forward to reading your stuff. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:44:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] HO E-R (Roco) sharks The current NMRA bulletin showed up today, complete with an ad from E-R saying 5 stripe shark A's, as well as shark B's including a PRR 5 stripe (but not a single stripe to match the A units they already sold, for some reason) will be out this fall. To head off the standard line of questions which tends to appear because people get the idea these are "all new diework, new units", etc... These are the Roco, formerly imported by Model Power, RF-16 sharks; The diework is decent but not state-of-the-art; Some detail is molded on. The truck wheelbase is shorter than the Westinghouse-traction-motored AAR type B road trucks (9'10" wheelbase) that were on the real thing, but apparently longer than the 9'4" GE-motored version. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:01:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Zebra-Stripes on some pilots Hi Guys, I was wondering why some Pennsy diesels (primarily the Baldwin and Lima Transfer Units) had those black-and-white stripes painted on their pilots, and some did not. Could it have been something to do with the area to which they were assigned? TIA. Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:51:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Zebra-Stripes on some pilots In a message dated 7/15/99 6:18:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Eichhorn@aol.com writes: << I was wondering why some Pennsy diesels (primarily the Baldwin and Lima Transfer Units) had those black-and-white stripes painted on their pilots, >> I believe this statement should be only the Lima and LH LS 2500 and some of the Baldwin Transfer units. Every LS 2,500 I've seen have the zebra striped pilots while I believe I've seen some BLW Transfer units without Zebra stripes. This is a good question. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:59:54 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] WTCo. RS-1's Hi all... Ok since were on this RS-1 string...What are the basic differences between Pennsy RS-1's and those that the Washington Terminal Co. had. I still remember these engines working in Washington and the distinctive loping sound they made. If i remember right i think they were older than Pennsy's engines...I remember one dated 1943 i think. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:03:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] HO E-R (Roco) sharks In a message dated 7/15/99 4:22:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << To head off the standard line of questions which tends to appear because people get the idea these are "all new diework, new units", etc... These are the Roco, formerly imported by Model Power, RF-16 sharks; The diework is decent but not state-of-the-art; Some detail is molded on. The truck wheelbase is shorter than the Westinghouse-traction-motored AAR type B road trucks (9'10" wheelbase) that were on the real thing, but apparently longer than the 9'4" GE-motored version. >> I did a review of the PRR version of te E-R Shark in the May, 1999 issue of Model Railroad News. In there I discuss the improvements that were made to the diework, and details. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] More on the National Archives (long) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:06:29 -0500 Hi, all, Because I've heard from so many of you, I'll fill out the earlier message. Again, I'll be glad to try to answer questions on this. The sections of the PRR maps were of great value. I was concerned that on the PRR maps the original info might have been covered over by later changes, since the rr's were supposed to keep the ICC appraised of any changes to their physical plant. All the maps I saw contained virtually all the info as of c.1917; in one case, on the Cherry Tree & Dixonville, a coal line jointly owned by the PRR and (gasp!) NYC in western PA, the PRR had up-dated an area by making a new map but the original was there as well. On the sections for the Middle Div I looked at, there were some interesting details - like trackage into the Haws Refractory in Jacks Narrows. The Cartographic Section of the Archives, where the maps were viewed, had a master list of ICC Val maps in the collection and I took the liberty of jotting down railroads of interest and the bundle number you need to access them. The following is NOT complete but merely reflects my interests: Altoona & Northern - bundle #9 (there were TWO railroads in Altoona, one of which was narrow gauge; Cin, Lebanon & Northern (later PRR) - #360; Ohio River & W - 856 In some cases, the pre-absorption name is use, like for the Grand Rapids & Indiana or the Cherry Tree & Dixonville; in other cases, the line is just listed as PRR. David Pfeiffer (see below) has a master map showing which val sections cover which parts of the PRR. All of the preceding are in Record Group 134. The maps are large blueprints - about 3' x 5' - and copies can be made by the staff for $2.50 per foot. Figure about $12-$14 per map. The copies are very good quality. There is a limit of 10 map copies per person per day but this is flexible depending on how busy the staff is. I maxed out but they take credit cards. Unfortunately, due to staff shortages, they cannot make copies by mail order. There are a number of private vendors who will provide this service but the cost goes up considerably. Be aware as well that there are a limited number of "map pulls" per day - starting at 9:30 am and done about every two hours. These are the only times when staff will bring out maps from the storage area. Bear in mind as well that these maps ONLY show property owned by the railroad - there's almost nothing of factories, towns, etc. Also, as some of the responses to my original posting show, the val maps often were essentially engineering dept maps that the rr already had on hand anyway, so it is quite possible that there are copies out there besides those in the Archives. In addition, the NA also has a fair selection of the Val engineering field notes. These are requested in the Textual Archives section and, again, there are a limited number of "pulls" per day. I looked at the available notes on the P&W (B&O) and copied a number of items. The Textual Arch. reading room has many and various copy machines at between .10 and .25 per copy. The scanner/copier worked fairly well for odd shaped items. Sometimes the ICC field crews took photos of the items described - thus I found a series of good-quality b&w prints of P&W water tanks that probably dated form the n.g. era. In HARRUMPH I, Roberts published a number of such photos, suggesting gov't ineptitude was responsible for the poor quality. He was right about the quality but not all field crews were such poor photographers. The stuff I saw was excellent and I've also seen fine images from Western Maryland Rwy Val crews. I did not have time to pull the Engineering summaries, which are easier to use (since they are summaries) but don't contain things like plans and photos (as the actual field notes sometimes do). The sheer magnitude and detail of the ICC Val project really comes home to you when you see the volume of the actual field notes. Not every road's field notes survive and what does may not be complete. Call ahead to get the information you need and even have the material pulled when you arrive - it gives you more time to research. I spent a total of about 8 hours and looked through field notes for about 2 hrs and probably about 50-60 maps in 6 hrs. The NA staff person to contact is David Pfeiffer - he's knowledgable and helpful. His phone is (301) 713-7230, x.276. His e-mail is: david.pfeiffer@arch2.nara.gov Another contact person is Joe Schwartz at the same phone #, x.288. For large railroads, they can tell what Val section the area you want to study is in - typically it appears to correspond to rr divisions. Figure as well that it will take you a little while to get your researcher card, sign in to the respective reading rooms, etc. They are serious about security and preserving the documents, but everyone was very helpful. RE the photos I found, I don't know what their policy is about making copy negatives. Getting to the NA branch in College Park, MD was easy. Driving, it's not too far off the Beltway. I was without a car but there are free shuttle buses from the main NA building on Pennsylvania Ave, which is near a METRO stop. More info can be had at the NA website - www.nara.gov/nara/dc Hope this helps - the NARA are a pretty cool place! George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] public TT's Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:31:26 -0400 I am currently looking for PRR public timetables of New York-Philly passenger services, preferbly from 1938 to 1950. If anyone has these contact me off-list please. Also, my thanks to those who helped me with my Broad Street Station question. The answers I aquired will help in the planning of the layout I have planned for our garage. Thanks. -Josh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:38:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? Bill and All, Hugh certainly does model the Pennsy. Of course my brother Greg and I both model Pennsy. Greg is now living in Salem, Oregon and I here in Las Vegas, Nevada. We both lived, really grew up, in Southern California and Hugh used to put on a great slide show from time to time. It's been many years since I last enjoyed Hugh's company but I still remember when! There are many Pennsy modelers "out west". Heck there are maybe a half dozen here in Las Vegas that I know of. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice for Painting Brass Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:53:59 -0500 Doug--For your brass N R50b you probably can get away with out the bead blast. The model probably has a well attached clear coat, which you do not have to strip as long as it isn't full of crude and dirt in the clear paint. Definitely wash it several times using good quality dish detergent. The idea is to absolutely remove any oils on the surface including traces of oil from your fingers. If it were me doing the painting I would use Scalecoat I (not II) with 30-40% thinner and with about 5% Scalecoat Gloss mixed in, airbrush at about 18-20 psi. I would bake it in my kitchen oven (electric Kenmore) at the minimum temperature for 10-15 minutes, then let it sit for 3-4 days before doing any work on it. Your oven may be different, but probably not. Of course, you must remove any plastic pieces. Scalecoat's Tuscan Red should get pretty close; in any event you want fairly heavy weathering. From video evidence it seems no headend cars were ever washed, just the cars passengers rode in. My preference would be to paint the roof Floquil Grimy Black, but don't don't do any masking for 3-4 days as above. Modelflex should be okay--I have painted brass with it, but I haven't found a color that I like for PRR Tuscan Red. Have fun! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:42:32 -0700 > There are many Pennsy modelers "out west". Heck there are >maybe a half dozen here in Las Vegas that I know of. > Don't I know it!!!. Bill Kress (who used to be involved with ALCO models) and (if I recall correctly) Elmer Sturernagel both live up in Phoenix (I HOPE he lives there...or else my memory is playing BIG tricks on me) and, we have several Pennsyaholics (present company included) down here in Deepest Darkest Tucson (which qualifies for "out west"...) Bill Daniels p.s....one day I was kicking around in the Pacifico yards down in Nogales, Sonora and what did I run across but a honest-to-god P-70!!! Seems that Pennsy sold off some to the Mexican Railroads years ago. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:46:16 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? Aloha, I am not the greatest modeler but I am a SPF and live west of Monroeville where ever it is. There is no place further west than Hawaii in the US. Also I am not the only SPF out here. I know of at least four others. I do wish it was easier to attend events. Eric At 03:07 PM 7/14/99 -0400, LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/14/99 12:55:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >herzog1@gate.net writes: > ><< No one west of Monroeville models PRR? Did you ever hear of Hugh >Debbertine > of West Covina, California. HE is MR. PRR!!!!! > >> >And just where is Monroeville? Ed Martin lives in Las Vegas, Nev., Greg >Martin lives in Salem, Ore. and both are prolific authors of PRR modeling >articles. Claus Schlund is in San Francisco and casts N scale parts for PRR >Prototypes. Rick Tipton is in Louis and I am just south of Springfield Ohio >and we're both doing different parts ofd the PRR Columbus Division. > >Tom V. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:23:37 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice for Painting Brass (N Scale R50b) From: "Doug and Marianne" Gary and Steve: Regarding the N Scale R50b express reefer: Thanks for the help. Was all the hardware painted black? I see Gary's model has the door hinges and hardware painted black. I had been looking for this model in N Scale for years. I first saw it at a show years ago, but at the time I thought the $75 asking price was too high. I finally found it again at an auction and made sure that I had the highest bid. Does anyone know what was commonly carried in this car and over what routes? Thanks again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] ORER on CD Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 06:34:36 -0400 From: Jerry >On 4/30/99 2:07 PM, George Pierson (George.Pierson@trnty.edu) wrote: > >>FYI - Going through the latest issue of RMC, I noticed that Westerfield >>is offering two different back issues of the OFFICIAL RWY EQUIP REGISTER >>in CD Rom (both from the 1950's, I think), and also a summary of PRR >>entries in various past issues. The prices were pretty reasonable and >>having books like these on CD avoids the problem of deterioration of >>older issues. Now if more of thse come out for earlier issues and for >>he OFFICIAL GUIDE. > > >Geez, I'm even a Westerfield dealer and I didn't know about these!!! > >Here is what's available: >PENNSYLVANIA RR EARLY 1893-1926 >Listing from 30 different years for PRR and >all subsidiaries. ORER_PRR1 $30.00 > >JULY 1950 ORER50_7 $20.00 > >JANUARY 1955 ORER55_1 $20.00 > >JANUARY 1959 ORER59_1 $20.00 These are now available through "MS"'s eStore, as well as all Westerfield kits. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:26:03 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] More on the National Archives (long) George, Thanks for your info. Stuff like this really makes this site crackle. This is especially useful for me as I have volunteered my services to my local historical society to research railroading in my community in the 19th century (The B&M, predecessors and successors, run through town.). Of course, I'm shoe-horning this project in between several other commitments. Keep up the good work. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:53:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Eric J. Minton wrote: > Aloha, > > I am not the greatest modeler but I am a SPF and live west of Monroeville > where ever it is. There is no place further west than Hawaii in the US. > Also I am not the only SPF out here. I know of at least four others. I do > wish it was easier to attend events. You may not have heard of Monroeville, but you've almost certainly heard of Pitcairn! Pitcairn is surrounded either on 3 or on all 4 sides by Monroeville, and at least some portion of the yard is in it. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Why the PRR (photographicly) terminated at Pittsburgh. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:08:42 -0400 This is an item that comes up over and over so I thought I would add my two cents worth on the subject. And I KNOW its bound to stir some other comments and critisims, so take this as MY OPINION and nothing more. When Bob Yanosey set out to do the Pennsy Diesel Years, he and I had no idea that it would ultimately lead to 8 or 10 volumes. I sent him most of my collection of 200-300 slides and told him to pick out what he wanted to publish and go for it. He said he needed more coverage west of Pittsburgh. He really "beat the hedges" to find more coverage west of Pittsburgh. It wasn't until Volume 6 that a significant number of slides turned up to do a major job on the area. Here's the reason. In the early diesel years, the fans tended to ignore the switchers and only went for the road power. We didn't have scanners, Extra 2200 South, Railpace, Flimsies etc. etc. to keep abreast of what was running where. Railfans didn't permeate the home offices with their fingers on the pulse to broadcast to the railfan community at large where the oddball power was running etc. Most fans did not realize that the FM switchers for example were scattered to the four winds and ALL west of Columbus. Most fans weren't even aware there was such a thing as a LIMA transfer unit and that they were almost exclusively west of Pittsburgh. Almost all of the through freight road power west of Pittsburgh was solid lashups of GP-9s with an occasional F-7 lashup. This may come as a shock to you guys but in the late 50s when we saw a set of F-7s roll into the view finder, we frequently FOLDED UP THE CAMERA and put it back in the bag! Even the sharks were considered no big deal, but we did shoot them. East of Pittsburgh the trains: a- ran slower (remember we only had Kodachrome ASA 12 and 25 to deal with) b- had better scenic backdrops c- were much more predictable (i.e. coal drags, ore drags, etc.) d- had the FAs, Sharks, FMs, etc. to shoot e- more passenger trains f- commuter trains (Chicago being the lone exception) g- had electric locomotives. h- in places like Cincinnati (for example) the Pennsy was only one of many many railroads to shoot, compared with say, Philadelphia where there were 2 1/2 games in town. (Rdg. and B&O being the other 1 1/2) i j.& k shorter distances between cities, etc. etc. etc. Get the point? It is not that we (Morning Sun Books) were trying to slight those lines west of Pittsburgh. Far From It. Bill ($0.02 + change) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: Modelers West of Monoroville List, Speaking of Mister Hugh Deberthine. Does anyone talk to him on a regular basis? If so please remind him he owes me 2 PRR photos. Several years ago he requested a Pennsy photograph from the Pittsburgh area from me. I sent it and in return he was suppose to send me 2. You guessed it! 2 years later, No photos. And Speaking of Elmer Steuernagel. When he was living back here in the Pittsburgh area in the 1960's he is the one who started the the Pennsy Historical Society from his house. Back then it was called the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association. He moved out to Pheonix years ago and now lives in Care Free, Arizona. Several of my buddies keep it touch with him. He was also an excellent steam model detailer and painter when it came to correctness. Don't think he does that anymore. Oh yeah, by the way, he probably has the largest PRR Steam Hardware collection ANYWHERE!.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Modelers West of Monoroville Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:49:26 -0400 I've known Hugh (Debbertine) for a number of years (lived about 5 miles from him) and while he has his shortcomings (don't we all?) I found him to be very honest in his dealings. Since he always has a lot of irons in the fire, he does tend to be forgetful at times, but I am sure if you give him a call at 626-966-3007, he will take care of you. BTW, Hugh wants to know if there ever was a 6-2-6 wheel arrangement and if it were to run on the Pennsy, what would be its class? Take THAT one on for a thread! Bill -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 9:13 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Modelers West of Monoroville List, Speaking of Mister Hugh Deberthine. Does anyone talk to him on a regular basis? If so please remind him he owes me 2 PRR photos. Several years ago he requested a Pennsy photograph from the Pittsburgh area from me. I sent it and in return he was suppose to send me 2. You guessed it! 2 years later, No photos. And Speaking of Elmer Steuernagel. When he was living back here in the Pittsburgh area in the 1960's he is the one who started the the Pennsy Historical Society from his house. Back then it was called the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association. He moved out to Pheonix years ago and now lives in Care Free, Arizona. Several of my buddies keep it touch with him. He was also an excellent steam model detailer and painter when it came to correctness. Don't think he does that anymore. Oh yeah, by the way, he probably has the largest PRR Steam Hardware collection ANYWHERE!.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Latest on the Strafford (PA) Station fire Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:44:11 -0400 The Strafford station as we all know caught fire on June 29th and there has been a lot of concern whether it will be rebuilt. Five days before the fire SEPTA had approved a $3.2 Million restoration project. The station was originally built in 1876 for the Centennial Exposition in Fairmount Park. It was later moved to Old Eagle School Road. It is a 2 story Victorian design and well worth saving. It also served the Philadelphia and Western 3rd rail line prior to 1956. A July 9th article in the Inquirer states that the planned renovation project will go ahead but the cost to fix the fire damage has yet to be determined. Stay tuned. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:20:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Why the PRR (photographicly) terminated at Pittsburgh. There is another IMHO major factor causing the lack of material for Lines West beyond the immediate confines of Pittsburgh. That is a simple matter of demographics. Most of the area traversed by the PRR west of Pittsburgh was primarily rural farmland with a few notable exceptions prior to the late 60's and early 70's. The number of railfans per 100,000 population being equal, there simply were not that many individuals railfanning Lines West. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:17:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice for Painting Brass (N Scale R50b) On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Doug and Marianne wrote: > Gary and Steve: > > Thanks for the help. Was all the hardware painted black? I see Gary's > model has the door hinges and hardware painted black. I would concur with the opinion that you do not need to "bead blast" the model if it has a good thin clear coat or none at all. If not clear coated, I usually do a quick rinse in a liquid BRASS (NOT COPPER) cleaner and wash VER well in soapy warm water. Dry completely, and peime with floquil zinc chromate in a SPRAY CAN! (Yes, spray paint!!!!!!) This works very well in one or two light coats. Dry in oven at very low temp up to 30 min, and then feel free to paint as soon as cool. Paint the body Polysscale PRR Tuscan, roof PRR Steam Power black, trucks and underneath equipmeni such as battery boxes, and water tanks olive up to mid '44, black after that, hardware such as handholds, underframe,. brakes etc were always black. Please note that the lettering on these cars was ALWAYS "synthetic Buff" ("SB") and never "gold leaf". An excellent resource for the paint schemes is the book Pennsylvania Railraod Passenger Car Painting and Lettering by Blardone and Tilp (PRRT&HS, 1988) > Does anyone know what was commonly carried in this car and over what routes? One commodity that I can say with assurance - MUSHROOMS! At least one R50 was often a part of the consist of the "Mushroom Train", a perfectly modelgenic little train on the Octoraro branch (usual consist: G-5, Baggage, combine, +/- R50b (sometimes multiples!), which ran on a tight schedule designed to deliver the R50 to Philadelphia in time to connect with named trains and clockers, designed to get fresh mushrooms to NYC for delivery to grocers early the next AM. (see the recently re-release Highline reprint "The Octoraro Branch" (vol 6, Nos 3&4, vol 7, no 1), Philly Chapter PRRT&HS, 1986, 1998) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:04:39 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Hoss's Dinner Reservations as of 7/16/99 Greetings to the group, I have received a reservation request from the following folks for the 5 PM PRR-Talk Dinner get together at Hoss's on Friday, August 27th. There is still plenty of time to get the reservations in. I just wanted to provide an update of what I have 'officially' received via e-mail. Drew R. McGhee Jerry Britton Dorman & Susan Wilson Jerry Breon Brad Bower Al Buchan Rick Tipton Ken McCorry Rich Ader + 5 Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "caboose@onerrave.com" Subject: [PRR] Westerfield CD-ROM's Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:44:50 -0400 The Westerfield CD-ROM's contain graphical copies of the pages from the original ORER. Each page must be accessed individually; that is, you can NOT scan the CD-ROM for specific information. I feel that the CD-ROM's are a good value but they are not as handy as having the book in hand. You can easily find information you are looking for you just can't "browse" through it easily. To quote Dennis Miller, "Of course, that's my opinion and I could be wrong". Hope this helps. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "caboose@onerrave.com" Subject: [PRR] Atlas RS-1 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:35:11 -0400 We have illustrations of the Atlas RS-1 on our web site. Click on ATLAS from our home page and go to 150-8850 and 150-8851 for both sides of the undecorated models. It may help you visualize any needed additions and modifications. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SugarJ69@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:32:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Antenna placement I'm trying to find the correct placement for antennae for several different Pennsy locos and cabeese that I am modeling. I realize that I could find them in some books, however, I just spent more than I should at some recent train shows and on eBay. What I need is to locate some photos/drawings on the web or if somebody would be kind enough to scan some photos or give me the directions I be much appreciative. The equipment that I am antenna-izing are an RS11, GP7, GP9, SD7, SD40-2, E8, F units, passenger cars and cabin cars. I know that I am asking a lot but I know that I can count on the folks on the list. I will be glad to post summaries. Regards, SugarJ East Jabipp & Kwicherbichen RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Why the PRR (photographicly) terminated at Pittsburgh. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:01:42 -0400 Not only that but I personally had two assignments in the west, at 59th Street Chicago (roundhouse) and Canton Diesel Shop. I did shoot photos in both places, but lets face it, in Chicago, there was tons of stuff better to shoot than Pennsy GP-9 lashups. I did shoot the LS-25 and some of the various FM dogs and cats laying around the enginehouse, but if I wanted action shots, I just couldn't get up the energy to go sit in an Indiana cornfield in the 101 degree heat to shoot a four unit Pennsy GP- 9 set that i had already overkilled in Altoona, Enola etc. etc. Probably the biggest reason I shot trains around Canton was because the new GP-35s were starting to get delivered and it gave a respite from the plain jane F-7s. By that time the sharks were few and far between except on the Cherry Tree turn and on some of the drags out of Crestline. (I did have a trio of sharks jacknife on a switch at the W&LE overpass in Orrville.) Bill -----Original Message----- From: LINESWEST@aol.com To: herzog@icanect.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Why the PRR (photographicly) terminated at Pittsburgh. >In a message dated 7/16/99 11:53:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >herzog1@gate.net writes: > ><< > Get the point? It is not that we (Morning Sun Books) were trying to slight > those lines west of Pittsburgh. Far From It. > >> > What's happening is that today's consumer's expectations far exceed >what another generation's technology and tastes produced. This is what makes >some collectibles more valuable than others. > In talking with Dave Hickcox and others familiar with Mooring Sun >Books and recent books in general is that buyers demand color photos and the >publishers greatly prefer transparencies > I assume this a universal problem not unique to the PRR. It wasn't >until the 1970s that color photography became the predominate media of the >amateur shutterbug. B&W was cheaper and you could save costs by doing your >own processing and printing. And slide photography has always been a smaller >share of the market. There's a lot of photos out there but most are blurry >and Black & White. > I now understand why there's a paucity of PRR shots in and around >Southwest Ohio during the transition period. In July 1949, supposedly in >response to resident's complaints, the PRR Co. announced that as of Sept. 1, >1949 all regularly scheduled or assigned power traveling through Xenia would >be diesel. I suspect it had more to do with the short turntable at Pendleton >Engine house in Cincinnati and the ascending and descending greater than 1 >percent grades on the Dayton, Xenia & Belpre between Zimmerman & Duttoit >Street in western Greene County (Xenia is its county seat) and Dayton's east >side. This had to be the earliest PRR dieselization. > Such a move would have made Southwest Ohio a dead zone for Pennsy >railfans in the early 1950s if all the could shoot were PAs&&PBs, centipedes, >Sharks, Erie Builts, LS 2500 (the Baldwin Center cabs and the were assigned >to eastern Ohio and Pa.) and H-10-44s, H-12-33s snd H-20-44s and E7s and F3s. > >Tom V. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:09:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Westerfield CD-ROM's From: "Jerry Britton" > The Westerfield CD-ROM's contain graphical copies of the pages from the > original ORER. Each page must be accessed individually; that is, you can > NOT scan the CD-ROM for specific information. > > I feel that the CD-ROM's are a good value but they are not as handy as > having the book in hand. You can easily find information you are looking > for you just can't "browse" through it easily. > > To quote Dennis Miller, "Of course, that's my opinion and I could be wrong". > Hope this helps. Dennis speaks the truth...they have some value, but are not as convenient as desired in some cases. The documents that I have converted to Adobe Acrobat on the "KC" site is kind of a "middle ground"...each page is still a graphic and not text-searchable, but the document retains the book "look and feel" and the viewing software is free and extremely commonly used. The "best" solution would be Acrobat files created from text files. That's easy to produce if the original was done in electronic form which, of course, none of the Pennsy stuff was. They can be converted via ungodly amounts of time and disk space, via OCR technology. However, it's impractical unless you're getting paid to do it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:39:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Why the PRR (photographicly) terminated at Pittsburgh. In a message dated 7/16/99 11:53:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: << Get the point? It is not that we (Morning Sun Books) were trying to slight those lines west of Pittsburgh. Far From It. >> What's happening is that today's consumer's expectations far exceed what another generation's technology and tastes produced. This is what makes some collectibles more valuable than others. In talking with Dave Hickcox and others familiar with Mooring Sun Books and recent books in general is that buyers demand color photos and the publishers greatly prefer transparencies I assume this a universal problem not unique to the PRR. It wasn't until the 1970s that color photography became the predominate media of the amateur shutterbug. B&W was cheaper and you could save costs by doing your own processing and printing. And slide photography has always been a smaller share of the market. There's a lot of photos out there but most are blurry and Black & White. I now understand why there's a paucity of PRR shots in and around Southwest Ohio during the transition period. In July 1949, supposedly in response to resident's complaints, the PRR Co. announced that as of Sept. 1, 1949 all regularly scheduled or assigned power traveling through Xenia would be diesel. I suspect it had more to do with the short turntable at Pendleton Engine house in Cincinnati and the ascending and descending greater than 1 percent grades on the Dayton, Xenia & Belpre between Zimmerman & Duttoit Street in western Greene County (Xenia is its county seat) and Dayton's east side. This had to be the earliest PRR dieselization. Such a move would have made Southwest Ohio a dead zone for Pennsy railfans in the early 1950s if all the could shoot were PAs&&PBs, centipedes, Sharks, Erie Builts, LS 2500 (the Baldwin Center cabs and the were assigned to eastern Ohio and Pa.) and H-10-44s, H-12-33s snd H-20-44s and E7s and F3s. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 14:17:00 EST Subject: RE: [PRR] Antenna placement I think that Cal Scale had some top view photos of their models in their antenna kits. The placement of the antennas shown are approximate if not exact. Also, the PRR never had any SD-40-2's but they did have a fleet of SD-40's. However, the SD-40's were not equipped with inductive antennae but a standard sinclair antenna. Hope this helps! Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: SugarJ69@aol.com at Internet Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 11:57 AM To: n_scale@onelist.com at Internet; prr-talk@dsop.com at Internet; nscaleproto@onelist.com at Internet Subject: [PRR] Antenna placement I'm trying to find the correct placement for antennae for several different Pennsy locos and cabeese that I am modeling. I realize that I could find them in some books, however, I just spent more than I should at some recent train shows and on eBay. What I need is to locate some photos/drawings on the web or if somebody would be kind enough to scan some photos or give me the directions I be much appreciative. The equipment that I am antenna-izing are an RS11, GP7, GP9, SD7, SD40-2, E8, F units, passenger cars and cabin cars. I know that I am asking a lot but I know that I can count on the folks on the list. I will be glad to post summaries. Regards, SugarJ East Jabipp & Kwicherbichen RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:49:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Why the PRR (photographicly) terminated at Pittsburgh. From: "Jerry Britton" > In a message dated 7/16/99 10:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time, > herzog1@gate.net writes: > > << This may come as a shock > to you guys but in the late 50s when we saw a set of F-7s roll into the view > finder, we frequently FOLDED UP THE CAMERA and put it back in the bag! >> > > I have to remind myself of that every time I turn my video camera off at > Hammond when an Amtrak train with F40PH's on the headend arrives. Living just 20 minutes from Enola and the Rockville Bridge, I keep asking myself why I'm not camping out and filming the final days of Conrail. I'm not a Conrail fan (or foe) but I'm sure such tapes would be very valuable in 15-20 years. I just can't justify making such a time investment now for a chance at a profit that far down the road! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:08:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Why the PRR (photographicly) terminated at Pittsburgh. In a message dated 7/16/99 10:53:49 AM Central Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: << This may come as a shock to you guys but in the late 50s when we saw a set of F-7s roll into the view finder, we frequently FOLDED UP THE CAMERA and put it back in the bag! >> I have to remind myself of that every time I turn my video camera off at Hammond when an Amtrak train with F40PH's on the headend arrives. I did make sure I got plenty of feet of tape of the Capitol with the ex-NP dome, though. And I did get the Broadway at Horseshoe a month before train-off (got the Desert Wind 3 weeks before train-off, but that's anothe story. I personally was busy at school at the time, but I went to high school a mile from the Roosevelt Road viaduct in Chicago. It wasn't as dangerous as some neighborhoods today, but in addition to time constraints, I would have been reluctant to go there alone brandishing a moderately expensive camera. However, I have seen hundreds of beautiful color photos taken at the throat of Union Station with a Nikon which would answer just about every question that comes up on this list as to passenger equipment color for PRR, REA, run-through. It is in someone's attic and I cannot even trace through the hobby shop where I saw them: out of business during the 12 years I was absent from Milwaukee area. I still have hopes of finding them someday. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:51:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Newsgroups From: "Jerry Britton" Would someone on the list who has the time please assemble and post a summary of how to access newsgroups, URL's of public newsgroups servers, and lists of RR-related newsgroups to look for. I get asked this a lot, espcially with regard to downloading PRR photos, but I personally don't use them. I'd appreciate if someone would take 15 minutes to put together a "how to" and post it to the list. Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:58:53 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Thorndale Coal Wharf/more R50b Howdy all, Well, I've been working from home lately...my 13 month old was home sick the last two days...anyway, to cut to the story... rather than watch teletubbies, we watched PRR videos (hey , she's a fan!) and I observed some interesting things: A month or so ago I brought up the subject of what year the Thorndale coal wharf was torn down and concluded that it was at the time of electrification - WRONG! Pennsy Steam and Electric Years Vol 1 clearly shows the dock present with the overhead wire and dates one scene as 1940 (wire went up in '38). Hmmmmm, I guess I am modeling the coal wharf after all...Anyone have a track plan for the thorndale coal wharf? (George - I'm going to need those plans!) Secondly, I would guestimate that every 3rd to 4th passenger train had an R50 on the East-West trains...fewer on the North-South in the 40's, and fewer as the era got later. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:53:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Bill & folks, First off, as regards point #h, Philley could be said , by some, to indeed have 2-1/2 railroads: the B&O, Reading Company and PRSL, as well as four subways: Broad Street, Frankford-Market, the Speedline and the BIG RED SUBWAY. But we'll lay the kidding aside, Seeing as how much we all like the Pennsy. I've always wondered about the (relative) scarcity of PRR images west of Pittsburgh, and many of the points mentioned are too universal to explain the delemma. Everybody was stuck with the same film, and places much less or no more scenic than the Midwest have been heavily photod. But it is true that in towns with more photogenic engines, the Pennsy doesn't come out too well. It's no surprise that the older picture-takers ignored F units, at least to us who grew up in the 1950's and early 60's. Steam was too recent, the older guys had the spending power and influence and many of them had a grudge against diesils. In a way I can't blame them, because I can't get into current railroading or even second generation units, not when there's a long-gone world populated by cab units, RS units, Baldwins and Geep 9's. Not to mention lots of passenger trains, mail trains, cabooses, towers and all the human elements that made railfanning so rewarding. But come to think of it, the original posting about Pennsy west of Monroeville never said there were no Pennsy fans west of there. It only made reference to the fact that layout tours were set up for those heading east from the convention, or at least that's my take. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Modelers West of Monoroville Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:12:12 -0700 6-2-6...thats about 1/3 of a S1, so would that make it a S-0.3? or would it be a 4-F? Nickname: Little Swish? Sutiable for a 1 car commute service? As for tractive effort...with only 1 of 7 axles powered, tractive effortless is more like it! Espee had their T.D. Judah (4-2-4) (Ted Judah was the 5th member of the "Big Four", and the Civil Engineer that laid out the Donner Pass Line), so would Pennsy call it the "Altoona-ville Trolley". Nah...A. W. Gibbs was NEVER that dumb. Bill Daniels...who obiviously is bored this afternoon! > >BTW, Hugh wants to know if there ever was a 6-2-6 wheel arrangement and if >it were to run on the Pennsy, what would be its class? > >Take THAT one on for a thread! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:42:35 -0400 (EDT) > But come to think of it, the original posting about Pennsy west of > Monroeville never said there were no Pennsy fans west of there. It only made > reference to the fact that layout tours were set up for those heading east > from the convention, or at least that's my take. > Regards, > Barry Peltier Barry, that's exactly what I said. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Westerfield CD-ROM's Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:45:06 -0400 Claus, Very true. However, using standard printer paper the resultant book would probably be more than three times as thick as an original. (ORER uses double sided printing on much thinner paper). Again, I feel the CD-ROM is a worthwhile investment. I will print out the roads that I am interested in and put them in a notebook. The ORER contains a wealth of information and is a welcome addition to my reference library. I doubt I will ever print all of the pages in any one CD-ROM. But you could if you desired. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 <<<<>>>> Claus Schlund wrote: At the risk of stating the very obvious, if you print them out and make your own paper copy, then they ARE "as handy as having the book in hand". So you CAN then easily browse thru them... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] B-60 baggage car Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:15:48 -0700 When were the B-60 baggage cars built with the balloon roofs? When were the built with vents for the REA/ US post office use? I am putting together a passenger train in O- scale. I am painting the car with the Pre- 1938 style , brown roof, orange sash, olive underframe paint scheme. I would like to know if it is appropriate to paint a B-60 with balloon roof and vents with the brown roof and olive underframe. Thanks, Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Always looking for information or photos of the Renovo Yards! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:03:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 B&D Andy, I did two articles on the X-29 rebuilds. The first being the D and the second being the B. The Tichy underframe has the correct side sill but the cross bearers don't work. The article details how to take the then Front Range Kit and modify the underframe to work. The Pennsy had to rebuild the underframe as well as the box as the crossbearers didn't work for either new "BOX." The drawings that Mainline Modeler did were wrong also because Bob Hundman believed like most that the old "BOX" came of and the new "Box" went on. So, if you ant to get it right read my article and start with the RED CABOOSE car and use the 6 foot door to make the X29B and the 8 foot door for the X29D. The X29D did have an overhanging lip on the roof edge which if done properly should be done with the up coming Branchline car. I need a bunch of these cars too and I will do the X-29B's from the RED CABOOSE kit. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:34:46 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Newsgroups > Would someone on the list who has the time please assemble and post a > summary of how to access newsgroups, URL's of public newsgroups servers, > and lists of RR-related newsgroups to look for. > > I get asked this a lot, espcially with regard to downloading PRR photos, but > I personally don't use them. I'd appreciate if someone would take 15 minutes > to put together a "how to" and post it to the list. Newsgroups of US interest are: alt.binaries.pictures.rail alt.models.railroad alt.models.railroad.ho alt.railroad alt.railroad.steam bit.listserv.railroad gov.us.topic.transport.rail misc.transport.rail.americas misc.transport.rail.misc rec.models.railroad The easier way to access newsgroups (USENET) is to use DejaNews (now just called Deja) by browsing the following URLs: http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/alt.models.railroad http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/alt.models.railroad.ho http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/alt.railroad http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/alt.railroad.steam http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/bit.listserv.railroad http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/gov.us.topic.transport.rail http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/misc.transport.rail.americas http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/misc.transport.rail.misc http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/group/rec.models.railroad Unfortunately, Deja strips binaries out of postings, so alt.binaries.pictures.rail is worthless to access at Deja. For $25/yr you can subscribe to http://extra.newsguy.com/, which gives you access to a real news server if your ISP does not have one. A list of open news servers is maintained at http://web.ukonline.co.uk/mick.s2/new/news/news.htm. Use news servers from this list at your own risk. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:54:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] testing, testing this is only a test ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 03:30:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] going off line Gize, I've been hit with a Trojan horse that's ripping off my password. I'm going offline shutting down my account until I can get it straightened out and install better antivirus program. Don't know If I'll be able to save LinesWest as my moniker, if not look for Pennsyline, PRRLines, N6Bcabin, CL&NRY, LM&C&XRR, Pennline, PCC&STL or PRRSJYSO or something like that. See ya'll Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:28:43 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Westerfield CD-ROM's Denniss wrote: > The Westerfield CD-ROM's contain graphical copies of the pages from the > original ORER. Each page must be accessed individually; that is, you can > NOT scan the CD-ROM for specific information. > > I feel that the CD-ROM's are a good value but they are not as handy as > having the book in hand. You can easily find information you are looking > for you just can't "browse" through it easily. At the risk of stating the very obvious, if you print them out and make your own paper copy, then they ARE "as handy as having the book in hand". So you CAN then easily browse thru them... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:51:16 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] When were K4sa conversions done? Hello list, I have more questions regarding my favorite pacifics. I've been researching the K4sa conversions in anticipation of my first brass engine, Rail Classics' K4sa 612. I'd like to know exactly when the K4sa conversions were done (at least to the year). I've perused the PRR-talk archives without success, along with my many reference books. Pennypacker and Staufer assert in the Many Faces of the Pennsy K4 that the K4sa conversions were done after the initial poppet conversions (5399 and 5436), but, maddeningly, do not provide dates. Also, various sources state that the K4sa engines had higher boiler pressure and circulators in addition to the more visible front end throttles, bigger piston valves (15" vs 12) and disc drivers (Pennsy Power III has shots of the 5405 and 612 on p 176). Did any of the engines actually have the increased boiler pressure and circulators? Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:37:01 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Borden's "butter dish" milk tank cars From: "Doug and Marianne" Does anyone have information on the paint schemes for these cars? I know that there were white and silver cars with black lettering, and red cars with yellow lettering. I think there may have been a green (what kind of green?, yellow or white lettering?) Any other colors? Did these cars ever run on the Pennsy? Any other information on Pennsy milk operations. Thanks. Doug N. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:35:47 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Newsgroups Jerry Britton wrote: > > Would someone on the list who has the time please assemble and post a > summary of how to access newsgroups, URL's of public newsgroups servers, > and lists of RR-related newsgroups to look for. > > I get asked this a lot, espcially with regard to downloading PRR photos, but > I personally don't use them. I'd appreciate if someone would take 15 minutes > to put together a "how to" and post it to the list. > > Thanks. > I'll give it a try :) If you have AOL, go to "Internet" and then "newsgroups". Choose "Expert add" and then input one of the newsgroups listed below. The choose "Read my newsgroups" to get to the post headers. If you have an ISP or LAN internet service it is a little more complicated, but you get a better news client than AOL has! 1. Find a news server. If your ISP dosent provide news, try looking for a free server at Newzbot http://www.jammed.com/~newzbot/ or subscribing to a news server like UseNetServer (about $9.95/month) http://www.usenetserver.com 2. Get a news client. If you have Netscape or Outlook you can configure the news settings to the news server you want to use. If not try Free Agent http://www.forteinc.com 3. Be patient. When you are configuring your news client for the first time you will be downloading a list of _all_ newsgroups on the server. There are usually between 10 and 30 thousand so it will take some time if you have a relatively slow modem connection. 4. Subscribe to newsgroups. For discussions try rec.railroad rec.models.railroad rec.models.railroad.ho for "binaries" (photos) try alt.binaries.pictures.rail Again, be patient if you are downloading binaries. They are usually very large files and can take a lot of time on a modem connection. Also, make sure you have a suitable viewer to see the files after you have got them. 5. Beware! There is a world of content posted to news servers which the average human will find quite offensive, especially in the "binaries" groups. Many unscrupulous enterprises will post their offensive material (spam) in what seems to be a clean newsgroup. Pick the headers you will download carefully, or you may send the family into shock! Also, the level of politeness we enjoy on a private mailing list like PRR-Talk is not always the case on a public news server. Although the rail groups are pretty sedate, you can experience attempts at disruption and "flame wars" between people who just can't seem to chill out. Most groups have no "Jerry" to act as moderator. For a more detailed description of what newsgroups are see http://www.usenetserver.com/what_is_usenet.htm I hope this has been helpful. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me off-list. -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] When were K4sa conversions done? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:13:44 -0700 Doug and all; I don't have an exact date for the K4sa conversions, but from what I can gather from PPIII, apparently the conversion was performed in late 1945...after the drop coupler and beauty treatment. The inital poppet conversion on 5399 was done in 1939, by Lima (of all people!). No wonder it worked so well! Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] When were K4sa conversions done? List, For what its worth,, I have a photo of #612, dated 9-28-41 and is still classed K4s. I will look further in my pics to find a later dated pic of #612. #5481 was also a class K4sa. One photo I have is dated for 7-28-46, it is now classed as K4sa. #5484 was another K4sa. My photo of her is dated 4-10-47 and is also at this time a K4sa. Interesting too this K4sa had disc drivers applied. #1985 and #5405 were also classed K4sa. My photos of these locos are dated 1932(to early, still a K4s) and 1949 (after reclassification). So I am assuming the converstion to K4sa was about the 1945 era. ...Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Website URL changes Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:50:24 +0100 Dear All, The Newcastle & District Website now resides at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ndmrs.htm Please alter any links etc. etc. The site also shares space with the NMRA site I am doing for the British Region. A trial version can be found at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/welcome.htm Regards, John H. Wright ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics Web Update Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:45:09 -0400 Hello PRR List; We would like to inform all of you that we have updated our Web Site (www.railclassics.com) and would like your input on the last version K-4s that we will import next year. We are also taking final reservations on our X-40 project, see your dealer now. As we build based on your reservations, there were some who missed our R-50b Express Cars. In addition, some news that we will post in the next few weeks: When we import our run of X-40's, we will also import more 2D-P5 Trucks in Friction, Roller and Hyatt Roller bearing types. The demand for these trucks has been overwhelming and we sold out within a few weeks. So more are on the way !! Finally, we have just about secured the drawings for one of the loads, which were carried by the PRR on the F-38 HD Flat Cars. If that comes about, we will offer the load as a separate sale item. Thanks, Eddy at Rail Classics ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:54:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Borden's "butter dish" milk tank cars There is a photo of some type of milk car, in the June 1981 Keystone, which shows two milk cars on the rear of passenger train No. 570 leaving Renovo. Although these don't look like butter dishes, does anyone have information on them? Dennis Sautters Canton, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 01:06:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Borden's "butter dish" milk tank cars In a message dated 7/18/99 10:29:49 PM Central Daylight Time, Prr1187@aol.com writes: << There is a photo of some type of milk car, in the June 1981 Keystone, which shows two milk cars on the rear of passenger train No. 570 leaving Renovo. Although these don't look like butter dishes, does anyone have information on them? >> Those are North American Car Company milk flats with removable tanks. Funaro and Camerlengo has(or had) the kit. Different tanks could be used and different dairies had different shapes. The ones in the photo resemble the Borden's, but seems to me (hey I'm a midwesterner:-)) Abbott or Sheffield Farms or Supplee was more common in that area. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:37:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] KC's Guest Book Now Working From: "Jerry Britton" Late last week it was brought to my attention that the Guest Book at "Keystone Crossings" was not accepting new entries. (Thanks for the tip!) It should work now, as the problem was with a path reference that was changed when I migrated my web files to a new, larger drive. So if you tried to sign and could not, please return and do! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:47:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Wreck of Red Arrow (PRR) -- 1947 From: "Jerry Britton" [From the RAILROAD list] > I recently was given some pictures of the wreck of the Red Arrow > train of the Pennsylvania Railroad in early 1947, near Altoona, Pennsylvania. > This was a very serious derailment, with a number of deaths and injuries. > Three of my relatives were on that train, and one was in a car that derailed. > I am looking for more information about this derailment, and I would > appreciate anyone with such information contacting me (or the list as a > whole, if it is felt that the information might also be of interest to > others). Daniel: This wreck has been discussed numerous times on the "PRR-Talk" list. That might be a good list to join and pose your questions to if this will be an on-going inquiry. Information about joining this list is at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrtalk.html You can search for the past posts I mentioned by visiting the list archive at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ I have posted my response to the "PRR-Talk" list so you may also get some posts from there. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Modeling tip! List, I know there are plenty of modelers on this list so figured I would share the news of a new product on the market. How many of you would like to model fullsize, prototype length passenger trains? Plenty of us I know! Problem is when we place 8-10 cars behind a K4 or M1 the train stalls somewhere on the layout. Problem is the weight of some cars, especially the brass passenger cars. The only good cure to avoid the stalling of trains is to limit the number of cars to 4-6. Yes you could double head but how many of you bothered putting a kadee coupler on the pilot of your locos? There maybe a cure once and for all so we can run long trains.. I just learned that Intermountain released a ball-bearing axle modification kit. I am just about to start painting 8 Brass NYC Passenger Cars for someone. The owner of these cars didn't like the way these tracked on the rails. They semed to drag along when you gave it a little push. He removed the trucks and installed these new roller bearing, ball bearing or what ever they are called, on one of these cars. He placed it on the Glass counter at the local hobby shop and the car took off by itself. I didn't see it but the people who did were amazed. It now looks like we can run those Soho, Challenger, and Oriental Models 12-14 car Broadway and Congressional Limiteds. I plan on equiping my cars with these Intermountan items too. Has anyone else on this list heard or installed these already? And what are your opinions? I believe the price is 6 axles worth for $19.95? .........Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:02:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! Gary said: >amazed. It now looks like we can run those Soho, Challenger, and >Oriental Models 12-14 car Broadway and Congressional Limiteds. I plan on >equiping my cars with these Intermountan items too. Has anyone else on >this list heard or installed these already? And what are your opinions? >I believe the price is 6 axles worth for $19.95? .........Gary >From the intermountain web page http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ 40059. . . .36" Ball-Bearing Wheels - 6 Sets $19.95 Jerry doesn't have Intermountain on his list of companies for Merchandise Service, but Walthers does carry these (item 85-40059) however, they are currently showing as out of stock. I need to get some of these too!!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:25:04 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Modelers west of Monroeville? --On Fri, Jul 16, 1999 9:53 AM -0400 "Derrick J Brashear" wrote: > ... Pitcairn is surrounded either on 3 or on all 4 sides by > Monroeville, and at least some portion of the yard is in it. > Actually, Pitcairn Yard lies within three separate, independent, and wonderfully Balkanized SW Pa. townships. According to the information provided to me by a CONRAIL official at the grand opening (the day Levan announced the grand CSX takeover), jurisdiction within the fenced yard complex is actually split between these three townships, even though the single entrance is at the northeastern end of the yard. That means that three different ambulance/paramedic departments respond to accidents in the yard, depending on where, specifically, it's located. Perhaps they eventually worked thru this nonsense, but somehow I doubt it. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:43:29 -0400 We have a few of the sets in stock....and a LOT more on backorder. The price is $19.95 for six axles. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! >Gary said: >>amazed. It now looks like we can run those Soho, Challenger, and >>Oriental Models 12-14 car Broadway and Congressional Limiteds. I plan on >>equiping my cars with these Intermountan items too. Has anyone else on >>this list heard or installed these already? And what are your opinions? >>I believe the price is 6 axles worth for $19.95? .........Gary > >>From the intermountain web page http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ >40059. . . .36" Ball-Bearing Wheels - 6 Sets $19.95 > >Jerry doesn't have Intermountain on his list of companies for Merchandise >Service, but Walthers does carry these (item 85-40059) however, they are >currently showing as out of stock. > >I need to get some of these too!!!! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:43:05 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads [Was: No modelers west of Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: > > > Actually, Pitcairn Yard lies within three separate, independent, and > > wonderfully Balkanized SW Pa. townships. > > Well, sorta. Monroeville isn't a township... When it was, it was Patton > Township. Monroeville is a "municipality", which is apparently special, > not a borough or a township, but a home-rule municipality. > Greeting to Derrick and the list: Such municipal goofiness (Vagel had the right word for it in "Balkanization") exists in numerous other places along PRR/CR/Amtrak rails. For example: There is no municipality of Enola. There *is* a post office named Enola, but the municipality is East Pennsboro Township. Same holds true across the river at Lucknow, where PRR once scrapped rolling stock and locomotives, and where NS operates the large former-CR intermodal terminal. That's in Susquehanna Township. Likewise on the former Reading, there is no such real, legally official, place as Hershey, despite what the Hersheypark marketing department would have you believe. Where the Harrisburg Line tracks go right past that big amusement park (where the Circus Train unloads every year), you're in Derry Township. On the PRR further east, there's no real place named Paoli, either -- the community of Paoli exists inside, and as part of, Tredyffrin Township. All of which goes to prove very little except that these icon names that we sometimes tend to institutionalize because of their relative importance to what we're familiar with -- railroad operations -- sometimes are merely place names and not real governmental entities. There's no Lucknow water authority, no Enola City Hall, no Hershey police, and no Paoli tax collector. Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 133:1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:38:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] GP9 conversion I have a couple of GP9's that I was thinking of converting to GP7's. I can find the 36" fans, but how about the louvers on the side doors, does anyone make those detail parts? Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:09:44 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re: [SMRF] Fw: Delmar Larry A fairly recent Keystone had an article with a fair amount of Delmarva material. The summer 1998 issue had an article titled "Pennsy's perimeter of Plenty". John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 01:59:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] MRA & prototype modeling ??? Bob Harpe and All modelers, I want to take a moment and address what a "prototype modeler" is IMHO (I hate the "P" word). I have been involved with RPM (Railroad Prototype Modelers) since about 1989. I is a very loose oraganization with no formal infrastructure except a small steering committee which makes the arrangements for the meets that are presented each year. Enough of the who and more on the what. I am sure your model are on a par with the models that you would expect to see at a RPM event. As a matter of fact I would likely say that 90% of the modelers out there would pass for prototype modeling as long as the research reveals that you have worked from known photo's and perhaps drawings (if available). Accuracy is high on their list when evaluating models at the RPM event, and I would not show up with Tyco 50' foot plug door box painted in NH orange unless I had real clear photos. They would like an attending member to bring a photo of the subject, but remember this just makes for a better looking display in most cases and does little for poor modeling. There are RPMer's who could afford some modeling lessons from members of these very list. With the advent of the Cyber Highway most modelers can get answers to any "accuracy or authenticity" questions they may now have. Most models like to share their knowledge, but a few hold back from speaking out until something is published, or so it seems. You should always surround yourself with modelers of a higher skill level than you own as far as I am concerned, to just make you push your own personal envelope. If not the hobby can get pretty boring. I grew in my skill level reading Jim Six articles clear back when he wrote that beautiful article on rebuilding PRR F-7's in 1984 Prototype Modeler. Railroad Prototype Modelers have been unfairly labeled "Prototype Police," Rivet Counters, Freight Car Police and other names. True they are passionate about their research knowledge gained but truly most enjoy sharing what they know, like I say "class is in." So to answer your question, NO, they are not different from us if you consider that your "standards" are your own, and they recognize that. Most meet I have been to you check your ego at the door, and enjoy the information exchange that develops. I think that MRA's attract modelers who are very interested in REALISM and not so much the absolute authenticity that one associates with RPM. We will be organizing MRA meets across the nation in time, some in association with NMRA, as they offer us exposure, as well as local meets in conjunction with hobby shops and larger meets on our own. What I think we all strive for is Authentic REALISTIC models and we have come to expect more from the manufactures and they have replied in-kind, so spend, model and share...but most of all have fun doing it! And never fear your critics as those that come on the strongest, IMHO, are usually poor modelers or model little at all for fear of equal treatment...could you imagine that? Greg Martin Bob Harpe wrote: << Jim, I'm not getting much modeling done these days so I thought I'd drop you a note and ask you a question. I think you'd be the one to ask since you've already dealt with the subject. WHAT constitutes a PROTOTYPE modeler? Are they any different than us? Do they build to higher standards than we do? If so, what do they do that we don't do. I've seen posts from different groups (group) that sound like they do pretty much like we do, changing this, adding that, cutting this, how are they different? Then I see messages that these people are planning to attend the RPM show this week- would our models fit in at one of these shows? Or would we be laughed out of town? If you think this would be a good subject to discuss on SouthEast Modeler, open up the subject and let's hear what our members think. See how my mind wanders if I'm not sniffng Scalecoat paint!! Bob Harpe >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads [Was: No modelers west Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:37:24 -0400 Amen! While I was in the process of writing Pennsylvania Trolleys in Color, Vol 1 (Morning Sun Books) about the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley R.R. in the Scranton-Wilkes-Barre area, I had interminable correspondence with Ed Miller (the resident expert on that part of the country) about that very subject. When you got into the anthracite coal country there were boroughs, townships etc. I doubt if even the RESIDENTS know where they live! Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper To: Derrick J Brashear Cc: vck@andrew.cmu.edu ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 7:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads [Was: No modelers west ofMonroeville?] >Derrick J Brashear wrote: >> >> On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: >> >> > Actually, Pitcairn Yard lies within three separate, independent, and >> > wonderfully Balkanized SW Pa. townships. >> >> Well, sorta. Monroeville isn't a township... When it was, it was Patton >> Township. Monroeville is a "municipality", which is apparently special, >> not a borough or a township, but a home-rule municipality. >> > >Greeting to Derrick and the list: > >Such municipal goofiness (Vagel had the right word for it in >"Balkanization") exists in numerous other places along PRR/CR/Amtrak >rails. For example: There is no municipality of Enola. There *is* a >post office named Enola, but the municipality is East Pennsboro >Township. Same holds true across the river at Lucknow, where PRR once >scrapped rolling stock and locomotives, and where NS operates the large >former-CR intermodal terminal. That's in Susquehanna Township. > >Likewise on the former Reading, there is no such real, legally official, >place as Hershey, despite what the Hersheypark marketing department >would have you believe. Where the Harrisburg Line tracks go right past >that big amusement park (where the Circus Train unloads every year), >you're in Derry Township. > >On the PRR further east, there's no real place named Paoli, either -- >the community of Paoli exists inside, and as part of, Tredyffrin >Township. > >All of which goes to prove very little except that these icon names that >we sometimes tend to institutionalize because of their relative >importance to what we're familiar with -- railroad operations -- >sometimes are merely place names and not real governmental entities. >There's no Lucknow water authority, no Enola City Hall, no Hershey >police, and no Paoli tax collector. > > >Dan Cupper >dan@cwix.com >Psalm 133:1 > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:43:51 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] GP9 conversion Cary used to make EMD louvers that were embossed on a heavy foil and pressure sensitive. Don't know if Bowser has continued to offer them. Cary part number was LV-424. F. Brua JOELPRR@aol.com wrote: > I have a couple of GP9's that I was thinking of converting to GP7's. I can > find the 36" fans, but how about the louvers on the side doors, does anyone > make those detail parts? > > Joel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads [Was: No modelers west Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:28:47 -0400 (EDT) > Amen! While I was in the process of writing Pennsylvania Trolleys in Color, > Vol 1 (Morning Sun Books) about the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley R.R. in > the Scranton-Wilkes-Barre area, I had interminable correspondence with Ed > Miller (the resident expert on that part of the country) about that very > subject. When you got into the anthracite coal country there were boroughs, > townships etc. I doubt if even the RESIDENTS know where they live! Ah, but they do! I was going to mention Hershey, but Dan stole my thunder. This is by far the most famous town which does not exist (legally). (Enola is famous on this list, but not for the general public.) But I lived in Hershey -- er, Derry Township -- for 5 years. I was very acutely aware of going to the "Hershey, Pa." post office but paying local taxes (for but 1 of those years, having been a student for the 4 years prior) to Derry Township. I was once told that a borough, originally, was a town that received its charter from the King. This was certainly true of Shippensburg, where I grew up, which still sports streets named King, Queen, (King & Queen being the original center of town), Earl (the street down the middle of which the PRR Cumberland Valley Branch ran), Prince, and Orange (as in Duke of, and as in William of). A friend having come down from Toronto one year felt quite at home with all the local references to royalty. -- Mark P.S. I'm rather proud of how I managed to stay just barely on-topic with that brief reference in the last paragraph. Nevertheless, Jerry may reach out over the aether(net) and virtually slap my virtual wrist. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] IHC C-628 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:58:18 -0400 I have heard through a hobby shop in Indiana that IHC will soon be coming out with the "Premier Series" Alco Century C-628. HobbyLand, Inc. of South Bend is reporting that this engine will hve a can motor with flywheel, RP25 flanges, and 12 wheel drive. The railroad names listed basically follow the prototype railroads that had the C-628; IHC will come out with PRR # 6310 and 6311. The price of this IHC unit will be approximately 1/3 of the Stewart Hobbies version. Has anyone else heard of this engine from IHC? Could IHC be repowering the old Life Like / Model Power C-628 unit? If I recall, that version of the C-628 had a very crude body shell with handrail stantions as thick as tree trunks! Despite this announcement from IHC, I am planning on getting at least two Stewart C-628 because they are exquisitely detailed and do justice to the Alco unit. Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:54:30 -0400 Dare we mention the name on this list (whisper) it was the NYC! -----Original Message----- From: Doug Maddox To: Bill Volkmer Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 11:17 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads >The one that I wonder about is in Upper Bucks County. You have New Britain >Township and New Britain Borough next to each other. With separate local >government and police force. > >Change of direction... > >I will be spending a day of my vacation at the "Grand Canyon" of PA. I heard >that there is a rails to trails park in the bottom of the canyon. Whose line >is/was this? > >TIA >Doug Maddox > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill >> Volkmer >> Sent: 20-Jul-1999 07:37 >> To: dan@cwix.com; Derrick J Brashear >> Cc: vck@andrew.cmu.edu; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads [Was: No modelers >> westofMonroeville?] >> >> >> Amen! While I was in the process of writing Pennsylvania Trolleys >> in Color, >> Vol 1 (Morning Sun Books) about the Lackawanna and Wyoming >> Valley R.R. in >> the Scranton-Wilkes-Barre area, I had interminable correspondence with Ed >> Miller (the resident expert on that part of the country) about that very >> subject. When you got into the anthracite coal country there >> were boroughs, >> townships etc. I doubt if even the RESIDENTS know where they live! >> Bill Volkmer >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dan Cupper >> To: Derrick J Brashear >> Cc: vck@andrew.cmu.edu ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> >> Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 7:01 PM >> Subject: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads [Was: No modelers west >> ofMonroeville?] >> >> >> >Derrick J Brashear wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: >> >> >> >> > Actually, Pitcairn Yard lies within three separate, independent, and >> >> > wonderfully Balkanized SW Pa. townships. >> >> >> >> Well, sorta. Monroeville isn't a township... When it was, it was Patton >> >> Township. Monroeville is a "municipality", which is apparently special, >> >> not a borough or a township, but a home-rule municipality. >> >> >> > >> >Greeting to Derrick and the list: >> > >> >Such municipal goofiness (Vagel had the right word for it in >> >"Balkanization") exists in numerous other places along PRR/CR/Amtrak >> >rails. For example: There is no municipality of Enola. There *is* a >> >post office named Enola, but the municipality is East Pennsboro >> >Township. Same holds true across the river at Lucknow, where PRR once >> >scrapped rolling stock and locomotives, and where NS operates the large >> >former-CR intermodal terminal. That's in Susquehanna Township. >> > >> >Likewise on the former Reading, there is no such real, legally official, >> >place as Hershey, despite what the Hersheypark marketing department >> >would have you believe. Where the Harrisburg Line tracks go right past >> >that big amusement park (where the Circus Train unloads every year), >> >you're in Derry Township. >> > >> >On the PRR further east, there's no real place named Paoli, either -- >> >the community of Paoli exists inside, and as part of, Tredyffrin >> >Township. >> > >> >All of which goes to prove very little except that these icon names that >> >we sometimes tend to institutionalize because of their relative >> >importance to what we're familiar with -- railroad operations -- >> >sometimes are merely place names and not real governmental entities. >> >There's no Lucknow water authority, no Enola City Hall, no Hershey >> >police, and no Paoli tax collector. >> > >> > >> >Dan Cupper >> >dan@cwix.com >> >Psalm 133:1 >> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >> > >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:48:57 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Questions) Gary Mittner wrote: about the ball or roller bearings..... Thanks for the tip, and here are four questions: 1) Are they ball bearings or roller bearings? 2) Do they require unsoldering the sideframes from the truck bolster and reassembly? 3) Do they require machining a recess on the inside of the truck sideframe to accept the new bearings? 4) Do they utilize the existing wheelsets? In my experience, the poor rolling qualities of brass imports are due to the use of a prototypically correct "friction" journal, meaning the part of the axle which runs in the sideframe bearing. The vast majority of other model railroad equipment rolls well because it uses non-prototypical needle-point or coned axle ends. These cones rotate on their points, or nearly so, allowing reduced friction compared to the cylindrical axle ends on the imports. The pointed-end axles require a coned bearing, of course. A "craftsman" solution to poor rolling qualities of brass imports would seem to be drilling out the sideframe bearings and placing a coned bearing insert in the new, enlarged recess, then using Kadee, Jay Bee, Intermountain or any number of good quality pointed axle wheelsets. These bearing inserts could be turned out by the thousands quite cheaply and sold in low-cost packages. One would have to disassemble the brass truck side frames from the bolsters (on one side only, in most cases), which is not easily done by many modelers. However, the expense of tiny, precision ball bearings would be eliminated. At $19.95 for one passenger car, I'd expect a drop-in, no-modification installation. A technical description is awaited! -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Questions) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:40:11 -0700 Hi all... Let's clear up a very common misconception...the older type of bearing is NOT a "friction" bearing, but is known as a journal bearing. Under proper conditions, and properly lubericated, it had the same rolling resistance as a roller bearing at all speeds over 20 m.p.h. The derogatory term "friction" bearing was coined by Timken in an advertising effort to "put down" conventional bearings in favor of their product. Of course, rollers are superior at lower speeds, in cold weather and in maintenance issues, not to mention they have almost eradicated the dreaded hotbox. Bill Daniels >In my experience, the poor rolling qualities of brass imports are due to >the use of a prototypically correct "friction" journal, meaning the part >of the axle which runs in the sideframe bearing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:06:48 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Speculation) About those ball bearing wheelsets... After looking at the Intermountain website, which explains nothing, it occurred to me that these mysterious units could contain a largish ball bearing in the wheel itself. I recall this being done on slot cars many years ago. Using a bearing of larger diameter cuts the cost. The axle itself doesn't rotate at all, but each wheel is free to rotate on its own bearing. Thus, the lousy sleeve bearings in the brass import sideframes can be retained as-is. The axle can be split into right and left halves with a simple molded plastic sleeve coupling at the center, allowing installation without disturbing the bolster to sideframe connection. The original wheels can be removed with a small bolt cutter, if they don't pop out of the sideframe with a little tugging and twisting. Snip em' in two anywhere between the wheels. -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:03:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC C-628 The IHC ad in the August '99 MR has a picture of the engine in question. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:07:46 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] GP9 conversion Joel and the list, Cary, which is now a division of Bowser, makes stamped louvers with an adhesive back, part number 13-424. You can call Bowser at 1-800-327-5126 to order. I backdated a Bachmann GP-18 shell on an Athearn chassis to GP-9 configuration using these louvers and other parts; they're easy to work with. Just cut them off their sheet, peel the backing (the louvers come 10 to a sheet), and apply in the appropriate location(s). Doug JOELPRR@aol.com wrote: > I have a couple of GP9's that I was thinking of converting to GP7's. I can > find the 36" fans, but how about the louvers on the side doors, does anyone > make those detail parts? > > Joel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:41:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC C-628 This is probably the old AHM dies with a new drive train. The body has so many mistakes that by time you make all the corrections you might as well buy the Stewart. I know I have two of them which will now be replaced. When introduced they were the best available but no longer. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-SAL Centipedes Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 19:40:33 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/20/99 6:54 PM, CENTGA@aol.com (CENTGA@aol.com) wrote: >Does anyone know the visible differences between the PRR and SAL pedes? I >have a chance to buy an Overland SAL model. Todd Horton Hmmm, found that on eBay, huh? I asked the same question of the seller. There are some differences in some of the vents and a few other details...notably the absence of the trainphone...plus the SAL item is for one unit only...the PRR ran them in pairs. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:54:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR-SAL Centipedes Does anyone know the visible differences between the PRR and SAL pedes? I have a chance to buy an Overland SAL model. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:04:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GP9 conversion I must be missing something here. Both the GP7 and the GP9 are made in HO or are we talking about a different scale? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:11:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-SAL Centipedes In a message dated 7/20/99 7:50:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CENTGA@aol.com writes: << Does anyone know the visible differences between the PRR and SAL pedes? I have a chance to buy an Overland SAL model. Todd Horton >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- Todd, Take a look at: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sal4500.jpg and compare it to: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_prr5812.jpg There are a number of differences, as you will see. If it is your intent to attempt to convert to a PRR model, you will have your work cut out for you. Not to mention the fact that the Pennsy units ran in pairs. Hope the photos help. Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:11:21 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Comments) Hi, Bill, and all: Your point about the term "friction" bearing is interesting, and your comment that the coefficient of friction for a sleeve or journal type bearing is the same at speeds over 20 mph as a so-called "frictionless" roller or ball bearing emphasizes that the work required of any locomotive climbing a hill (in HO or full size) is in large part made up of the lifting effort, not just the effort to overcome friction. Thus, an anemic HO loco may encounter nearly the same difficulty working more than six heavy brass cars up a grade after more than $120 is spent for new bearings as it did with the original bearings. On the other hand, a few recalcitrant heavyweights with sticky bearings may benefit greatly from the new bearings, if only to duplicate (or exceed) the rolling characteristics of the rest of the rolling stock. So the next question is, if all the freight cars on our railroads have these ball bearings, will they coast well enough at slow speeds to allow more prototypical "kicking" during switching moves than is currently possible? -- Robert Livingston Bill Daniels wrote: > > Hi all... > > Let's clear up a very common misconception...the older type of bearing is > NOT a "friction" bearing, but is known as a journal bearing. Under proper > conditions, and properly lubericated, it had the same rolling resistance as > a roller bearing at all speeds over 20 m.p.h. > > The derogatory term "friction" bearing was coined by Timken in an > advertising effort to "put down" conventional bearings in favor of their > product. > > Of course, rollers are superior at lower speeds, in cold weather and in > maintenance issues, not to mention they have almost eradicated the dreaded > hotbox. > > Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Questions) Robert, I personally have not had a chance to see these Intermountin wheelsets myself. I just relayed the observations that were seen at the local hobby shop. I do not know what all is invovled for the conversion. I do not, I repeat, I do not, think it is a very difficult job to do. Hopefully I will see these soon or we need someone else to post more info than I have right now. ..........Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-SAL Centipedes Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:45:07 EDT They are quite different. SAL has a GP30-like fairing of the sheet metal above the windshields, giving a completely different look to the face and roof front of the locomotive. Were I you, I would paint the SAL model in SAL paint, or wait for a Pennsy model to come along. Andrew h _________________________ >Does anyone know the visible differences between the PRR and SAL pedes? I >have a chance to buy an Overland SAL model. Todd Horton _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-SAL Centipedes Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:34:47 -0400 Paint job, rear coupler on SAL, trainphone antennae, no steam generator on SAL. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: CENTGA@aol.com To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 8:52 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR-SAL Centipedes >Does anyone know the visible differences between the PRR and SAL pedes? I >have a chance to buy an Overland SAL model. Todd Horton > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] PRR-SAL Centipedes Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:44:39 -0400 I just checked the photos of the SAL Centipedes in "The Diesel Builders - Vol. 3", and it appears that SAL had two distinct types of Centipedes. The first unit (#4500) was built on the frame of Baldwin's experimental locomotive #6000. The carbody has a very different grill arrangement, and a roofline over the cab that is totally different from the PRR units (it extends to the front edge of the cab roof, with cutouts on either side for the horns.) The later units appear to be a good match for the PRR locos, except for the numberboards, and possibly the portholes (did PRR units have portholes?). So it depends which unit the brass model is representing. Hope this helps. Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC C-628 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:15:05 EDT I saw a large scan of one of these new IHC C-628's at auction on eBay, and it looked as if it were exactly what you tagged it as: the same old rather (subjective) crude Life Like/Model Power unit. But, unless you build contest quality models, a team of working Alco's on a Pennsy layout would, by definition, be grungy behond all recognition (GBAR), sort of like FUBAR, and look quite at home. I have a box full of these LL/MP C-628's that I have been upgrading and repowering (no, still using the same trucks) and I am quite pleased with how they look at the head of a train. If IHC has indeed upgraded the motor and added flywheels, it just might be an option for those of us who just want to run 'em 'till they can't run no more. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from down near C&O Milepost FM Zero. __________________________________________________________ >I have heard through a hobby shop in Indiana that IHC will soon be coming >out with the "Premier Series" Alco Century C-628. ,,, is reporting that >this engine will hve a can motor with flywheel, RP25 >flanges, and 12 wheel drive. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Comments) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:59:53 -0700 Robert and all... Of course I was refering to prototype bearings, which utilize the oil-wedge theory of lubrication on these bearings...the oil forms a wedge-shaped layer under the babbit metal of the bearing and the journal rides under it. Scale bearings don't work this way...and don't have anywhere the same bearing charachteristics. So while "anemic" HO locomotives might struggle up a grade with a train of poorly-rolling passenger cars, in fact the poor rolling charachteristics of these cars deeply contribute to it's load, not just the effects of pulling up a grade. Incidently, John Allen once observed that while scale locomotives actually had a lower tractive effort than real locomotives on level track, they actually had a higher TE as grades got steeper. And remember, the tractive effort (as well as model mass) decreases by the cube of the scale factor (HO=1:87.1 which translates to a scale factor of 660,773.6 so a 40 ton car should weigh 1.94 ounces!!!) So prototype "kicking" of cars is out, unless you install a flywheel in a car to add effective mass...this was actually done in the 70's...it was actually possible to kick a car and watch it glide 3 or 4 feet. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:28:13 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] GP9 conversion Hello list, I can't speak for Joel, but I converted my GP-9 after the Front Range and Atlas models were unavailable, and before Lifelike came out with its excellent GP-7s and GP-9s. The conversion also had the added benefits of being fun and cheap; as a graduate student, I couldn't afford brass. It also got me a model of the 7006 with a scale width hood as she appeared in 1955. Doug NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > I must be missing something here. Both the GP7 and the GP9 are made in HO or > are we talking about a different scale? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:21:58 -0400 Bill & Group, The Rails to Trails trail at the bottom of the PA Grand Canyon is the old NYC line from Williamsport (Avis Yard, actually) up to Corning NY. The line from Avis to Wellsboro is abandoned, and the canyon portion is the trail. The portion of the NYC line from north of Wellsboro to Corning NY is now a short line, whose name I don't have handy (Wellsboro & Corning RR?). It's also used by the Tioga Central excursion train. From Corning north to Lyons NY the line is intact. It was Conrail to Watkins Glen, Finger Lakes RR from Watkins Glen to Lyons. I'm not exactly sure whose it is now. The line from Avis (NYC) ran west with trackage rights over the PRR through Renovo to Keating Jcn. (not to be confused with Keating Summit) where a NYC line went into the PA coalfields. It became Conrail, now presumably NS. Last time I was down that way (a year or so ago), the NYC line from Keating Jcn. into the coal region was still active. I'm doing this from memory, so if anyone finds something incorrect or has more information, please let me know. Bill Bigler Big Flats, NY -I will be spending a day of my vacation at the "Grand Canyon" of PA. I >heard >>that there is a rails to trails park in the bottom of the canyon. Whose >line >>is/was this? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] K-4s Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:55:43 -0400 Hello PRR Fans; We at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com will import the K-4s in "HO" scale next year in a few different versions. Not to stir up any old news again, but has anybody ever come up with definite proof that a few K-4s engines were painted in Tuscan Red ??? If so let us know as we think, it would make a good version to do. Thanks, EDDY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:50:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] GP9 conversion On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, doug.kisala wrote: > Hello list, > > I can't speak for Joel, but I converted my GP-9 after the Front Range and Atlas > models were unavailable, and before Lifelike came out with its excellent GP-7s > and GP-9s. The conversion also had the added benefits of being fun and cheap; as Strictly speaking the Atlas was unavailable, but right along you've been able to get shells (but not the metal chassis, which included a walkway) from Atlas... I had planned to build a unit that way, until a) I got a full Atlas unit, and b) I also got the P2K units. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:48:06 -0400 I believe the line through Renovo went to CSX. You are correct in the other memory division parts. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bigler To: Bill Volkmer ; maddoxdy@enter.net Cc: talk prr Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads >Bill & Group, > >The Rails to Trails trail at the bottom of the PA Grand Canyon is the old >NYC line from Williamsport (Avis Yard, actually) up to Corning NY. The line >from Avis to Wellsboro is abandoned, and the canyon portion is the trail. >The portion of the NYC line from north of Wellsboro to Corning NY is now a >short line, whose name I don't have handy (Wellsboro & Corning RR?). It's >also used by the Tioga Central excursion train. From Corning north to Lyons >NY the line is intact. It was Conrail to Watkins Glen, Finger Lakes RR from >Watkins Glen to Lyons. I'm not exactly sure whose it is now. > >The line from Avis (NYC) ran west with trackage rights over the PRR through >Renovo to Keating Jcn. (not to be confused with Keating Summit) where a NYC >line went into the PA coalfields. It became Conrail, now presumably NS. >Last time I was down that way (a year or so ago), the NYC line from Keating >Jcn. into the coal region was still active. > >I'm doing this from memory, so if anyone finds something incorrect or has >more information, please let me know. > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats, NY > >-I will be spending a day of my vacation at the "Grand Canyon" of PA. I >>heard >>>that there is a rails to trails park in the bottom of the canyon. Whose >>line >>>is/was this? >>> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4s Date: Thu, 22 Jul 99 06:17:52 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/21/99 10:55 PM, Rail Classics (railclas@erols.com) wrote: >We at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com will import the K-4s in "HO" scale >next year in a few different versions. Not to stir up any old news again, >but has anybody ever come up with definite proof that a few K-4s engines >were painted in Tuscan Red ??? If so let us know as we think, it would make >a good version to do. Though I do not have the proof in my hands, I know that a few were. Interestingly, just yesterday a brass K-4 in Tuscan showed up on eBay. It claims the PRR had five such units and the brass importer created only 15 models, of which the auction item was one. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Questions) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:37:46 -0400 Gary Mittner wrote: Robert, I personally have not had a chance to see these Intermountin wheelsets myself. I just relayed the observations that were seen at the local hobby shop. I do not know what all is invovled for the conversion. I do not, I repeat, I do not, think it is a very difficult job to do. Hopefully I will see these soon or we need someone else to post more info than I have right now. ..........Gary Gary, Robert and all, Yesterday, I purchased a couple of packs of the Intermountain 36" Ball Bearing wheelsets (item #40059). They have a small diameter axle with pointed ends measuring approximately .058" dia. x 1.020" long. The wheels are spaced apart by a sleeve that is approximately .118" in diameter. The wheels are attached to the sleeve and do Not rotate independently of one another. The bearings are located between the sleeve and the axle. I did not disassemble one so I don't know if they are actually ball bearings or needle rollers, but the package says "ball bearing". The Intermountain wheelsets need to be installed into truck sideframes just like any other fixed wheelset (like Kadee's). I fit them to a Rivarossi Pullman last night to check out their rolling qualities compared to the same car fitted with Kadee 36" wheelsets and found that the Kadee equipped car actually rolled better. I was careful to make sure that nothing such as simulated brakeshoes or the truck mounting pin dragged on any part of either wheelset. I concluded that there was more rolling resistance in the Intermountain bearing package than in a properly fitting cone/journal system like Kadee's. The advantage in using the Intermountain system will come when the truck sideframes that they are used in either have no pointed journal socket or the distance between them is to tight for Kadee (or NWSL or whatever) and can't be adjusted for some reason. Admittedly, all this was done rather quickly last night so I may have overlooked some important details. There definitely is potential for this design. For right now Gary, I'll have to continue to triple head my 1938 Broadway Limited. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Discussion with Dan Cupper brought out the following trivia question: In what locations on the PRR system was timetable direction opposite geographic direction? So as not to argue as to precision, let's make the following definition. "Opposite" will mean opposite plus or minus 45 degrees. Thus, timetable "west" will be taken as an azimuth of 270 degrees, so therefore "opposite", meaning "geographic east", will be taken as anything from 45 degrees (northeast) through 90 (east) to 135 (southeast). Same procedure to be used for north/south. Gentlemen, start your engines ... -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4s Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:02:41 -0700 Hello all, It is known an documented that there were at least 10 K4s locomotives painted Tuscan Red in the late 20's. Not all locomotives thusly painted have been identified. Since I can't lay hands on my copy of THE MANY FACES OF THE K4S (NJ International) right now I can't check which locomotives were known to be painted red. Maybe someone else could look this up). These locomotives were probably part of the "star pool", which were top condition locomotives assigned to trains such as The Broadway and other top PRR trains, and had a painted star on their pilot beams. I would guess that the depression put an end to this practice...as well as gold leaf striping and other extravagances of the roaring 20's. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:33:33 -0400 Not to get off topic, but in Cajon Pass in California Westbound SP trains passed Westbound Santa Fe and UP trains going in opposite directions of each other. You can't get it any better than that! My offhand guess for PRR without looking at any timetables would be somewhere in the Schulykill Valley. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 9:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Trivia question > >Discussion with Dan Cupper brought out the following trivia >question: > >In what locations on the PRR system was timetable direction >opposite geographic direction? > >So as not to argue as to precision, let's make the following definition. >"Opposite" will mean opposite plus or minus 45 degrees. Thus, timetable >"west" will be taken as an azimuth of 270 degrees, so therefore >"opposite", meaning "geographic east", will be taken as anything from >45 degrees (northeast) through 90 (east) to 135 (southeast). Same >procedure to be used for north/south. > >Gentlemen, start your engines ... >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:28:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: {PRR} Trivia Question From: "Jerry Britton" > In what locations on the PRR system was timetable direction > opposite geographic direction? York, Pa. Here it get's really dicey... The Northern Central Railway/Branch is a north/south line. However, north is considered "west" and south is considered "east" to avoid confusion when compiling timetables that include both NCRy trains and "main line" trains. So, the Liberty Limited leaving Baltimore en route to Chicago travels two hours or so north up the NCRy, though it is listed as a "westbound" train. At Harrisburg it switched onto the mainline and headed true west. The reverse was also true, of course. Now, back to the question... The north/westbound train (Liberty Limited, let's say) reaches York, Pa. It comes up Persing Avenue then makes a 90-degree turn due east, where it stops in front of the York station. We now have a westbound train facing due east! Several hundred feet after exiting the station, the train passes YORK Tower then makes a 90-degree turn back north...though it is still timetable westbound. How'd I do? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:10:05 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Volkmer Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 9:34 AM To: Mark Bej; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question How about Lake Division westward: Houston Secondary (old WNY&P New Castle to Stoneboro)which was actually geographically northeast. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:58:40 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads The Finger Lakes RR portion is still owned by them. The NYC line that went to the PA Coal Fields I believe is now RJ Cornman(sp) PA Lines. I have family in the Clearfield/Curwensville area and RJ Cornman(sp) took over the CR line that runs thru Clearfield and on to the ex PRR Buffalo Line. On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Bill Bigler wrote: >Bill & Group, > >The Rails to Trails trail at the bottom of the PA Grand Canyon is the old >NYC line from Williamsport (Avis Yard, actually) up to Corning NY. The line >from Avis to Wellsboro is abandoned, and the canyon portion is the trail. >The portion of the NYC line from north of Wellsboro to Corning NY is now a >short line, whose name I don't have handy (Wellsboro & Corning RR?). It's >also used by the Tioga Central excursion train. From Corning north to Lyons >NY the line is intact. It was Conrail to Watkins Glen, Finger Lakes RR from >Watkins Glen to Lyons. I'm not exactly sure whose it is now. > >The line from Avis (NYC) ran west with trackage rights over the PRR through >Renovo to Keating Jcn. (not to be confused with Keating Summit) where a NYC >line went into the PA coalfields. It became Conrail, now presumably NS. >Last time I was down that way (a year or so ago), the NYC line from Keating >Jcn. into the coal region was still active. > >I'm doing this from memory, so if anyone finds something incorrect or has >more information, please let me know. > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats, NY > >-I will be spending a day of my vacation at the "Grand Canyon" of PA. I >>heard >>>that there is a rails to trails park in the bottom of the canyon. Whose >>line >>>is/was this? >>> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:24:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question OK. Lets start with west from Enola -- it actualy runs north-south. East from Enola to North Umberland runs north and south The Connemaugh Division form the Division point in Pittsburgh to Kittanning Jct. runs north south time table is east west. The Allegheny Valley line from Pittsburgh Union Station to Buffalo is north south timetable is east west. The Panhandle Division from MONON to ESPLEN is north south time table is east-west. The Eastern Division from Pittsburgh to Conway is basically north south and time table is east west. Just a start. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:58:38 -0400 (EDT) SUVCWORR@aol.com scribit: > > OK. Lets start with west from Enola -- it actualy runs north-south. > East from Enola to North Umberland runs north and south > The Connemaugh Division form the Division point in Pittsburgh to Kittanning > Jct. runs north south time table is east west. > > The Allegheny Valley line from Pittsburgh Union Station to Buffalo is north > south timetable is east west. > > The Panhandle Division from MONON to ESPLEN is north south time table is > east-west. > > The Eastern Division from Pittsburgh to Conway is basically north south and > time table is east west. > > Just a start. All true. But note that a timetable direction being "off" from the geographical direction by 90 degrees is actually not that uncommon. We could point to portions of the Phila--Wash main, officially north-south, where parts of it go east-west. Actually, even more than that, in Baltimore, where, right at the station, timetable south has a train pointing nearly northwest. But the trivia question asked not for when east became north, or north became west ... a difference of 90 degrees ... but when east became west, or when north became south, i.e., a difference of 180 degrees. So as not to argue a degree or two of difference, I put in the "plus or minus 45 degrees", and perhaps this makes it a bit too easy. Anyway, someone mentioned Horse Shoe Curve. I have to concur with that choice. The line is timetable east-west, and a westbound train, after rounding the Curve, is heading east on that face of the valley, for what? a mile or so, before turning south toward MG and then finally west toward the tunnels themselves. I'm rather embarassed to say that I actually did not think of this very obvious location. I'm thinking of one other definite, and one possible location, the latter may require research if no one knows off the top of their head. Oh, and BTW, in the same spirit of avoiding nit-picking, let's ignore the web of small, twisting coal lines in central Pa., where there must be scores of examples, and keep the answers to lines large enough to warrant a listing in the employee timetable. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:44:11 -0400 (EDT) > My second answer: Any mainline passenger train headed westbound (Chicago, > Detroit, etc.) travels east from Washington, DC, to Baltimore, where it > turned up the Northern Central Branch and travelled north to Harrisburg, > where it then joined the mainline to travel west. > > The reverse is, of course, true as well. Not quite what I intended to ask, though I guess the term "timetable direction" could be ambiguous. At any rate, when I said "timetable direction", I meant "employee timetable", i.e., the "official" direction designation of a given piece of track, not of a train. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:22:49 -0700 The River Line in Philadelphia between PENN and ZOO certainly qualifies. What was timetable direction for High Line and Greenwich Yard? Though not technically PRR, the Hell Gate Bridge is also timetable opposite. John > ---------- > From: Mark Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 6:27 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Trivia question > > > Discussion with Dan Cupper brought out the following trivia > question: > > In what locations on the PRR system was timetable direction > opposite geographic direction? > > So as not to argue as to precision, let's make the following definition. > "Opposite" will mean opposite plus or minus 45 degrees. Thus, timetable > "west" will be taken as an azimuth of 270 degrees, so therefore > "opposite", meaning "geographic east", will be taken as anything from > 45 degrees (northeast) through 90 (east) to 135 (southeast). Same > procedure to be used for north/south. > > Gentlemen, start your engines ... > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:13:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Boroughs along railroads In a message dated 7/22/99 7:12:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: << I believe the line through Renovo went to CSX. You are correct in the other memory division parts. >> According to the map on NS' website (www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/pamap.html) the Renovo line is now NS. However, the old NYC line starting at Renovo Jct. was sold as part of the Clearfield Cluster to Corman by Conrail. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Alan Buchan scribit: > How about Lake Division westward: > > Houston Secondary (old WNY&P New Castle to Stoneboro)which was actually > geographically northeast. Oooo, that's a close one! All I have to look at is a PRR system map, from which judging azimuths is fraught with some danger, but that line is at least awfully close to northeast, if not actually northeast. And if it's timetable west, as you say, then yes. There's a line coming off it, at Leesburg, going geographically southeast to Redmond. Was this one "west" as well? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:40:46 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4s in Tuscan Red Hello list, I had my copy of The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4 handy. On page 118, the authors write "....but there were also at least ten K4s in tuscan red livery back in the 1930s. The only known numbers were 2761, 5409, and 5436 which were, of course, reserved for use on premiere trains in the East." I will, however, caution the list that this book has many merits, but is sometimes inaccurate with regards to the facts (to cite but one example, on page 99, the 110P75a is referred to as "newly-built," when, in fact, all 110P75a tenders were rebuilds from classes 110P70/110P75; Keyser and others have documented this). I would advise finding some form of company documentation, or a photograph to substantiate engine numbers. Doug Bill Daniels wrote: > Hello all, > > It is known an documented that there were at least 10 K4s locomotives > painted Tuscan Red in the late 20's. Not all locomotives thusly painted have > been identified. Since I can't lay hands on my copy of THE MANY FACES OF THE > K4S (NJ International) right now I can't check which locomotives were known > to be painted red. Maybe someone else could look this up). These locomotives > were probably part of the "star pool", which were top condition locomotives > assigned to trains such as The Broadway and other top PRR trains, and had a > painted star on their pilot beams. > > I would guess that the depression put an end to this practice...as well as > gold leaf striping and other extravagances of the roaring 20's. > > Bill Daniels > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:45:24 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question: New York and Long Branch Hello list, Speaking only for my small corner of the PRR, the New York and Long Branch Railroad, of which PRR owned 50% after 1930, was geographically east of New York City. However, trains headed to New York were carded as eastbounds, and outbound trains were westbounds. Now, where were the other locations on the PRR proper where this was so? Doug Mark Bej wrote: > Discussion with Dan Cupper brought out the following trivia > question: > > In what locations on the PRR system was timetable direction > opposite geographic direction? > > So as not to argue as to precision, let's make the following definition. > "Opposite" will mean opposite plus or minus 45 degrees. Thus, timetable > "west" will be taken as an azimuth of 270 degrees, so therefore > "opposite", meaning "geographic east", will be taken as anything from > 45 degrees (northeast) through 90 (east) to 135 (southeast). Same > procedure to be used for north/south. > > Gentlemen, start your engines ... > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:27:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question From: "Jerry Britton" > In what locations on the PRR system was timetable direction > opposite geographic direction? My second answer: Any mainline passenger train headed westbound (Chicago, Detroit, etc.) travels east from Washington, DC, to Baltimore, where it turned up the Northern Central Branch and travelled north to Harrisburg, where it then joined the mainline to travel west. The reverse is, of course, true as well. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Questions) Jerry, list Still didn't get a chance to see these axle set yet. Maybe tomorrow I will pic some up. Jerry, there is nothing more spectacluar then triple headed K4's. I have done this myself with 3 of my PFM K's. Speaking of multi powered trains. Has anyone seen a photo of double headed T-1s? I am almost positive I did but don't recall the source. I do recall a triple header with a T1 and K4 and L1 or M1 helpers. I have photos of double header Q-2s. That train must of been a doozie for two of those locos to be called upon...........Gary. http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:03:23 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Trivia question Hello Everybody, It seems to me that the Cincinnati to Chicago route was listed as EB-WB...but is "primarily" N-S. Now From CSX/NS Country...Anderson, IN M Crim Mark Bej wrote: > > In what locations on the PRR system was timetable direction > opposite geographic direction? > > So as not to argue as to precision, let's make the following definition. > "Opposite" will mean opposite plus or minus 45 degrees. Thus, timetable > "west" will be taken as an azimuth of 270 degrees, so therefore > "opposite", meaning "geographic east", will be taken as anything from > 45 degrees (northeast) through 90 (east) to 135 (southeast). Same > procedure to be used for north/south. > > Gentlemen, start your engines ... Now, these N-gauge engines are not all that hard to start. > -- > Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me give directions." *Visit the "Panther Den" web site at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/TheDen.htm *or...The Central Indiana Post Polio Support Group's web site at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/PPSG.htm >From All of Us, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:40:24 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Double headers(was Modeling tip!) > Speaking of multi powered trains. Has anyone seen a photo of double >headed T-1s? There is a photo in Don Ball's Pennsylvania RR 1940s and 50's book of double headed T-1s heading into the curve. That's a LONG lashup!!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:16:21 -0700 > ---------- > From: Mark Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:26 PM > To: John Cooper > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com; bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question > > > John Cooper scribit: > > > > The River Line in Philadelphia between PENN and ZOO certainly qualifies. > > I have, from 1962 ETT: > River Line proper: same ETT has it as Southward from Zoo to Arsenal. > > Then I suppose River Line does not qualify. I assumed that the whole route New York to Washington was East-West. A New York-bound train actually travels about compass heading 300 just before Zoo. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Forgot to add: Mark Bej scribit: > The direction from Suburban Station to 30th St. Station (Upper Level) > and Zoo (34th and 44th St. OH Bridges) is Westward; > > from 34th St. OH Bridge to connection with No. 1 and No. 4 River Line > via 36th St. tunnel is Eastward; The combination of the above 2 means that a train, traveling outbound from Suburban Station, into the connection to the River Line, during the time when it is passing the 34th St. overhead bridge, has its nose going Eastward, while its tail end is still going Westward. Hmm ... ... ... -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:26:36 -0400 (EDT) John Cooper scribit: > > The River Line in Philadelphia between PENN and ZOO certainly qualifies. Are you certain? I have, from 1962 ETT: The direction from Suburban Station to 30th St. Station (Upper Level) and Zoo (34th and 44th St. OH Bridges) is Westward; from 34th St. OH Bridge to connection with No. 1 and No. 4 River Line via 36th St. tunnel is Eastward; From 30th St. Station (Upper Level) to Arsenal is Southward The first segment is geographically westward, so total correspondence there; the second I need some help with but basically curves NW, then N, they maybe NE -- aha, the very beginning of this is still (at the station) geographically west! The last segment is west and south and southeast. River Line proper: same ETT has it as Southward from Zoo to Arsenal. > What was timetable direction for High Line and Greenwich Yard? Greenwich Yard is east, checked that. Greatest deviation is when it is going straight south, only 90 deg difference from timetable. West Philadelphia Elevated Branch, same ETT shows it as Southward from Zoo to Brill. > Though not technically PRR, the Hell Gate Bridge is also timetable opposite. Good point. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4s in Tuscan Red Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:46:13 -0700 Hi Doug and all... Yes, I agree that there errors sometimes creep in books like TMFOTPK4s...but I seem to recall an article in the Keystone some years ago where they also listed some of the known K4s locomotives that were painted red. The article said that actual documentation from the PRR's files hadn't been found (if it ever was...) but there were some first hand recollections from older members (Bert Pennypacker comes to mind) of actually seeing some locomotives in red. Of course, photographs can't be of much help, unless the red and black (whoops...make that DGLE) paint showed an obivious tonal seperation (some photos of SP locomotives that were painted in their passenger colors (green boiler) during this period (the 1920's and 30's...pre Daylight) show the seperation...but who has seen a B&W photo that actually shows a tonal seperation between Tuscan Red and DGLE? Bill Daniels Tuscan, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR K4s photo List, Too bad we can't yell up to the freman and ask him if this is painted Tuscan Red! Ha Ha Ha!!! http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/redk4b.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:26:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! (Questions) Double headed T-1's can be seen on the curve in Ball's book the PRR inthe 40's & 50's. They are westbound approaching the curve on P. 148. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: [PRR] Delmarva operations Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:48:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01BED47B.1C035940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys I need any information on or about the PRR operations on the Delmarva = Penn. Thanks in advance=20 Larry=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01BED47B.1C035940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Guys
 
I need any information on or about = the PRR=20 operations on the Delmarva Penn.  Thanks in advance
 
Larry
------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01BED47B.1C035940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Tuscan Red K4s List, The subject of Tuscan Red K4's came up about a month ago here on PRR-TALK. That night after I read the first posting I was soon found diving into my very large K4 photo collection. Everyone seems to agree that K4s # 5409 was one of the handful of locos that were painted in these special colors. The years that these were painted this way was in the early 1930's for Priemier Trains in the East. While seaching my photo collection I found several photos of K4s #5409. What is so interesting about one of the photos is it is dated for 11-15-32. The Location is the Meadows, N.J. This falls into the years this loco was painted Tuscan Red. Being a Black and White photo of course the Tuscan Red does no show. However, besides the date, the other thing that caught my eye when I looked at the photo was the lettering variation on the tender. The word Pennsylvania is outlined in a pin stripe. I have never seen any other photo of such lettering style on any PRR Loco. Could this be the way they lettered the Red K4's? I have sent a copy of the photo to the PRRT&HS for their opinions. I have yet to hear back. If all the information on the history of Tuscan K4s is correct (Years and Loco Number) than I believe I have a very rare photo proof of one such engine. I am waiting the PRRT&HS response. Want to see the photos? Click on the urls below and judge for yourself. PS: The Tuscan Red K4s Precision Scale Model on ebay appears to be wong in my opinion. The tender behind that model looks like a 130-P-75 while the tender in my photo appears to be a 110-P-75. And no border stripe on the tender name. Nit picky aint I? ........Gary http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/redk4.jpg http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/redk4b.jpg http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trivia question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:19:44 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: bejm@gateway.eeg.ccf.org [mailto:bejm@gateway.eeg.ccf.org]On Behalf Of Mark Bej Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 1:14 PM To: Alan Buchan Cc: herzog@icanect.net; bejm@eeg.ccf.org; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question Yes, the Wolf Creek Branch (Leesburg to Mine No 5, at one time all the way to Redmond) was also ETT west although geographically SE. The Wolf Creek Branch came off the New Castle Branch at Leesburg. Al ===================================== Alan Buchan scribit: > How about Lake Division westward: > > Houston Secondary (old WNY&P New Castle to Stoneboro)which was actually > geographically northeast. Oooo, that's a close one! All I have to look at is a PRR system map, from which judging azimuths is fraught with some danger, but that line is at least awfully close to northeast, if not actually northeast. And if it's timetable west, as you say, then yes. There's a line coming off it, at Leesburg, going geographically southeast to Redmond. Was this one "west" as well? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:31:32 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] Chicago Union Station Book of Rules At a recent train show, I purchased a booklet titled Chicago Union Station Company - Rules of the Operating Department. It is a 51 page pocket sized book effective July 1, 1952. Reading this book has led to a few questions, as well as some comments. The following is quoted from the inside cover: The rules herein set forth govern the operation of trains and engines using Chicago Union Station Company's tracks and tracks under its jurisdiction, between South Branch Bridge and Western Avenue. My question is regarding Company tracks versus tracks under its jurisdiction. Mark Bej's web site says that the PRR officially ended at the South Branch Bridge and at Western Avenue. I think it would be safe to assume that the "main lines" and platform tracks are Company tracks. But what about the coach yards, Polk Street Freight Station tracks, etc. Would these be PRR tracks under CUS jurisdiction? I notice CT1000 lists several sidings within these boundaries. Are these PRR tracks? Would CUS rules apply only if a train is moving onto CUS trackage? For example, would a loco switching cars in the coach yard be subject to CUS rules if it was only within the yard? Anybody know where the CB&Q tracks officially ended? The rulebook references the CB&Q South Wye at 17th street and the CB&Q North Wye at 16th street. That would lead me to believe that the CB&Q ended right at the switches. but I can't be sure. The rulebook also states that "Interlocking and Interlocking Stations" are located at South Branch Bridge, Harrison Street, and Lake Street. Marks website states that he isn't sure that South Branch Bridge was a seperate interlocking, so I guess this answers that question, at least for 1952. I found it interesting that over the South Branch Bridge and to 18th street, tracks were numbered 1,2 west to east. Between 18th street and Roosevelt Road tracks are numbered 1,2,3,4 west to east. And between Roosevelt Road and Taylor Street tracks are numbered 6,5,1,2,3,4 west to east. Looking at a modern track diagram, it appears that Track 1 becomes track 2, and track 2 becomes track 3, at 18th street. Finally, I live in Champaign, Il., near the University of Illinois campus, which has an excellent engineering library. I found in an index an article titled "The Design and Erection of the Pennsylvania Lift Bridge No. 458 Over the South Branch of the Chicago River". It was published in Jour W Soc. of Engrs - May 1915. Does anybody know the full title of this journal? The article is 5500 words with illustrations. Didn't somebody else on this list find this article? I got kicked out at closing time, so I have to go back to see if I can find this article. Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Delmarva operations Date: Thu, 22 Jul 99 21:09:04 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/22/99 7:48 PM, Larry Denton (saled@3rddoor.com) wrote: >I need any information on or about the PRR operations on the Delmarva Penn. Did you check the "Hobo's Guide" on my web site -- "Keystone Crossings"? Has an extensive amount of info... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:19:27 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Fee Was anybody else disappointed that the registration fee included money ($25?) for a book on Altoona that they might not want? Why not price it separately? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:16:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Union Station Book of Rules In a message dated 7/22/99 8:39:51 PM Central Daylight Time, ajc5150@nospam.net66.com writes: <> Per January 23, 1953 track diagram, the mainline from 21st St. Tower (South Branch) to at least Polk Street is joint PRR-GM&O. Polk St. Freight Station, the Coach yards, Commissary and Pullman servicing facilities and 16th St. enginehouse,in short everything East of the mainline, are PRR. West of the mainline appears to be CB&Q tracks, coachyard and their express and freighthouse facilities (also the Zephyr house), but I leave the details of that to a CB&Q expert. Ladder for approach tracks to CUS begin just South of Polk St.branching West of and from PRR-GM&O tracks and are CUS Company tracks. CB&Q tracks also connect to this ladder. PRR main tracks continue from Polk on the East Side of CUS and are the through tracks to the Bernice branch on the North side of CUS. I would conclude from the above that the through tracks on the East side of CUS are 100% Pennsy, but on that I'd yield to an expert who says otherwise. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:17:18 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] TAN: Looking for some wisdom Howdy Everybody: I have over 100 "Post Card"s of various railroad releted subjects with the majority of them PRR. I would really like to post these on my web site, the problem is that I can't find a good source for copywrite infomation related to my specific question - If the "Post Card" says nothing about reproduction or copywrite, and I have tried to search for the owners of the following companies, can I post the "Post Card"s? The "Post Card"s where/ are produced by Railroad Photographs, 5 Appian Way, Allston, MA Railroad Photographic Club, 47 Royal Street, Allston Station, Boston 34 Mass. and Rail Photo Service, 305-307 Sherman Building, 93 Massachusetts Avenue, Boston 15 Mass - these have a notice on them that they may not be reproduce in any form without permission of the owners. I've visted a lot of PRR and other railroad related sites and when someone uses a picture by somebody else, the mention it. I do the same on my site. Since some of these shots do not have the photographers name on them who gets the credit. My delema is if some of these shots are in private collections or in a museum that sells reprints, would I be violating there rights also? There is a wealth of mostly 3/4 views of most of the PRR steam classes plus some juice stuff. Also a load of Pullman shots. Cos wsbcos.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Fee Date: Fri, 23 Jul 99 06:04:57 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/22/99 10:19 PM, John F. Ryan, Jr. (RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net) wrote: >Was anybody else disappointed that the registration fee included money >($25?) for a book on Altoona that they might not want? Why not price it >separately? As far as I know, a book is included every year. Last year it was the second book on Pittsburgh. I don't have a problem with it. Besides, these books are worthwhile to some, but if it was only sold seperately, there may not be enough quantity to justify its printing. I'd rather get a book I don't want now and then, cause there will be times when I get a book that I really want that may have never made it to paper had it not been for the Society. Sound biased? Maybe cause I'm writing the book tentatively slated for the 2000 convention...the PRR in York County, Pa.! BTW: I've previewed the Altoona book and it seems pretty decent. Bill Lewis had a copy over at my place when Craig Bowman visited in June. Craig, any comments? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:45:02 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Tuscan Red K4s Hey Gary, >However, besides the date, the other thing that caught >my eye when I looked at the photo was the lettering variation on the >tender. The word Pennsylvania is outlined in a pin stripe. I have never >seen any other photo of such lettering style on any PRR Loco. I agree - It jumped right off the page at me!!!! Verrrrrrrry interesting...With some careful surgery, it might be accomplished with the Microscale PRR Steam decal set (87-66). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:58:05 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia question Mark Bej scribit: > The direction from Suburban Station to 30th St. Station (Upper Level) and Zoo (34th and 44th St. OH Bridges) is Westward; from 34th St. OH Bridge to connection with No. 1 and No. 4 River Line via 36th St. tunnel is Eastward; > The combination of the above 2 means that a train, traveling outbound from Suburban Station, into the connection to the River Line, during the time when it is passing the 34th St. overhead bridge, has its nose going Eastward, while its tail end is still going Westward. > > Hmm ... ... ... > > -- > Mark =================================================== I've seen numerous model RRs where that happens all the time, and it has nothing to do with "defined" direction. All it takes is a loop of snap track and an 18" radius turn ;-) -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Union Station Book of Rules Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:55:07 -0400 (EDT) > Per January 23, 1953 track diagram, the mainline from 21st St. Tower (South > Branch) to at least Polk Street is joint PRR-GM&O. Polk St. Freight > Station, the Coach yards, Commissary and Pullman servicing facilities and > 16th St. enginehouse,in short everything East of the mainline, are PRR. West > of the mainline appears to be CB&Q tracks, coachyard and their express and > freighthouse facilities (also the Zephyr house), but I leave the details of > that to a CB&Q expert. Bob, on the other hand, Steve Long's maps that I'm scanning, cleaning up (cleaning up digital 'noise'), and posting on the web say "CMStP&P RR [and] PRR", pointing to the tracks east of WESTERN AVENUE interlocking ... but Andy is now the 2nd source (my first was by personal email from a friend who's a "local") that C.U.S. began at WESTERN AVE. Another possibility, I guess, is that CUS rules governed, but that the tracks _north_ of the station were joint PRR-MILW, and the tracks south were joint PRR-CB&Q-Alton ... ? Hmm. Curioser and curioser. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:34:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Last Streamlined K4 From: "Jerry Britton" As you'll recall from last week's posts by Eddy at Rail Classics, they are planning to release several variants of the K4 in brass next year. One of them will be a fully-streamlined unit and is described as follows: "K-4s #3678  This version will be as built and have all shrouding and trim intact. It will also have Web type drivers. For some reason this engine appears to have been kept intact as built for a longer time than the three others that were streamlined." Question: Anyone know what year this unit was either scrapped or had the streamlining removed? The also plan a version with some of the streamlining removed: "K4-s #5338  This K-4s will appear as it did in later years. It will have Spoke type drivers and have more exposed piping and appliances, as the others did. Some trim was removed as well as some of the streamline panels, such as under the Cab." I know none of the four streamlined units made it to 1954 as I am modeling, but I'd like to have one, just the same! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Last Streamlined K4 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:05:22 -0700 Jerry and all; I believe that the last streamlined K4s was eventually de-streamlined (in the early 1950's). I think that there are some shots of it up on the Long Branch looking much like any other K4s. The other streamlined K4s locomotives had their shouds removed about the time the PRR decided to dieselize their passenger operations in 1947 or so, but the 3678 somehow managed to escape the operation until the early 1950's. Don't let the fact that Pennsy removed the streamlining from their locomotives stop you from running one...it's your railroad after all. One more minor item...steam locomotives are never (well at least to me) refered to as "units". This is an EMD term, and properly refers to individual diesel units in a consist. Since steam locomotives were individually controled, by seperate crews, multiple locomotives on a train are not considered a "consist". Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Steam locomotives as "units" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:42:06 -0400 Drats! And here I have been working all these years to patent multiple-unit helicopters for commuter service! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Last Streamlined K4 >Jerry and all; > >I believe that the last streamlined K4s was eventually de-streamlined (in >the early 1950's). I think that there are some shots of it up on the Long >Branch looking much like any other K4s. The other streamlined K4s >locomotives had their shouds removed about the time the PRR decided to >dieselize their passenger operations in 1947 or so, but the 3678 somehow >managed to escape the operation until the early 1950's. > >Don't let the fact that Pennsy removed the streamlining from their >locomotives stop you from running one...it's your railroad after all. > >One more minor item...steam locomotives are never (well at least to me) >refered to as "units". This is an EMD term, and properly refers to >individual diesel units in a consist. Since steam locomotives were >individually controled, by seperate crews, multiple locomotives on a train >are not considered a "consist". > >Bill Daniels > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:50:35 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] 7/23/99 Hoss's Dinner Reservations Update Greetings to the group, As of Friday, July 23, 1999, I have received a reservation request from the following folks for the 5 PM PRR-Talk Dinner get together at Hoss's on Friday, August 27th. There is still plenty of time to get the reservations in. I'll provide another update next Friday. Drew R. McGhee Jerry Britton Dorman & Susan Wilson Jerry Breon Brad Bower Al Buchan Rick Tipton Ken McCorry Rich Ader + 5 Derrick Brashear + 2 Todd and Lisa Horton Joe Gotaski Dave Wartel Vagel Keller David Seidel Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:25:57 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Re: Double headed T-1 Duplexes --Boundary_(ID_pklz9STs4/UlLY6VpX+afQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Gary and the list, On page 148 of Don Ball's Pennsylvania RR: 1940s-1950s is a shot of double headed T-1 Duplexes on Horshshoe curve making copious amounts of smoke ascending the East Slope. I hope this helps! Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > Jerry, list > > Still didn't get a chance to see these axle set yet. Maybe tomorrow > I will pic some up. Jerry, there is nothing more spectacluar then triple > headed K4's. I have done this myself with 3 of my PFM K's. > Speaking of multi powered trains. Has anyone seen a photo of double > headed T-1s? I am almost positive I did but don't recall the source. I > do recall a triple header with a T1 and K4 and L1 or M1 helpers. I have > photos of double header Q-2s. That train must of been a doozie for two > of those locos to be called upon...........Gary. > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_pklz9STs4/UlLY6VpX+afQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Gary and the list,

On page 148 of Don Ball's Pennsylvania RR: 1940s-1950s is a shot of double headed T-1 Duplexes on Horshshoe curve making copious amounts of smoke ascending the East Slope. I hope this helps!

Doug

Gary Mittner wrote:

Jerry, list

     Still didn't get a chance to see these axle set yet. Maybe tomorrow
I will pic some up. Jerry, there is nothing more spectacluar then triple
headed K4's. I have done this myself with 3 of my PFM K's.
     Speaking of multi powered trains. Has anyone seen a photo of double
headed T-1s? I am almost positive I did but don't recall the source. I
do recall a triple header with a T1 and K4 and L1 or M1 helpers. I have
photos of double header Q-2s. That train must of been a doozie for two
of those locos to be called upon...........Gary.

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA</html>

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--Boundary_(ID_pklz9STs4/UlLY6VpX+afQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:39:39 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Last Streamlined K4 Jerry and the list, Several sources (Edson's PRR steam roster published in 1994 foremost among them) have K4s 3678 listed as being sold for scrap in 1957 (no month, just the year). No clue whatsoever as to when she was destreamlined. Pennypacker and Staufer's Many Faces of the Pennsy K4 state that the first streamlined K4s, 3768, had her shroud removed in 1948, but doesn't mention the other streamlined K4s engines. I'm also going to model the 3678, but in her deshrouded condition, circa 1957 with the 130P75 tender. Doug Jerry Britton wrote: > As you'll recall from last week's posts by Eddy at Rail Classics, they are > planning to release several variants of the K4 in brass next year. One of > them will be a fully-streamlined unit and is described as follows: > > "K-4s #3678 This version will be as built and have all shrouding and trim > intact. It will also have Web type drivers. For some reason this engine > appears to have been kept intact as built for a longer time than the three > others that were streamlined." > > Question: Anyone know what year this unit was either scrapped or had the > streamlining removed? > > The also plan a version with some of the streamlining removed: > > "K4-s #5338 This K-4s will appear as it did in later years. It will have > Spoke type drivers and have more exposed piping and appliances, as the > others did. Some trim was removed as well as some of the streamline panels, > such as under the Cab." > > I know none of the four streamlined units made it to 1954 as I am modeling, > but I'd like to have one, just the same! > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:31:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] N5 #477297 From: "Jerry Britton" As subscribers to the "Merchandise Announce" list know, Bowser has released several new products. Among them is a new N5 cabin, road number 477297, in an early paint scheme, bearing "Assigned to Passenger Service / Railway Express Agency" and "Buy War Bonds". Their previous N5 for REX was #5017 in Shadow Keystone. The "PRR Color Guide Vol. 2" mentions the 50xx number series of cabins assigned to passenger service. Does anyone know if 477297 was ever assigned to REX, or is this an example of non-prototypical numbering on the part of Bowser? I checked the 1950s Cabin Car Roster on "Keystone Crossings" (which lists freight assignments only). As of that time frame, #477297 was assigned to the Northern Region, train OR-3-4, Olean to Rochester. The other point worth mentioning is that the paint scheme does not include the Circle Keystone. Does this mean it was painted for a pre-CK era? If so, that gets dangerous as the predecessor of REX was American Railway Express. ARE became REX just before the CK scheme started, so this cabin would be appropriate for a very tight window, I think, unless you weather it heavily! Oops...if it says "Buy War Bonds", that would be WWII era...well into the CK era. Hmmm. Would a cabin of that era NOT have the CK? Can anyone shed light on this? Your thoughts? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! Miracle Castings shells now on special! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Streamlined K4s List. I am not positive of which book I read this in, maybe someone else recalls, but didn't one of the second batch of streamlined K4s remain at least partially shrouded at the time of scrapping. No. 5338 comes to mind? Once again I turn to my K4 photo collection to see if any questions can be answered. The following info is what I can come up with. K4s #1120, My latest photo of her in the full streamlining is dated 1945. Loco was scrapped in 1954. K4s #2665, Latest photo I have is circa 1945. Still fully streamlined. She was scrapped in 1955. K4s #3678, I have a photo of her in 1955 back to the normal postwar look. She was scrapped in 1957. K4s #5338. My latest photo of her is dated April of 1949. Still STREAMLINED at this date. However the nose cone has been removed. This K was scrapped in 1955. So this maybe the k4s I read about somewhere that survved till the end with the streamlined shroud, or at least most of it anyway. By the way I have several photos of K4s #3768 of 1936 Streamlined fame. One photo is dated 1945 and is quite intact, however she is missing all the shrouding around the running gear. Another photo taken in 1950 shows her back to the normal post war look. She was scrapped in late 1953. Those are just observations I noticed from photos. Dosn't mean anything that could be written in stone. The destreamlinlng of the locos fall betwwen the dates listed. Pics don't lie...... Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:31:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 Most "non-revenue" equipment MOW and "cabins" did not get the CK "Herald" at all Lettering is probably correct, # is probably wrong Note that the PRR continued to act like 2 seperate railroads long after "Lines West" were absorbed Engine numbers up to 4999 were generally "P Co." 5000 and over were Genenerally constructed for "Lines West" - If you have an "Official RR Equipment Guide" you'll find the same is true for Freight and non revenue equipment too - The number sequences start over at 500,000 Lines East Cabins and MOW Equipment is generally in the 400,000 # range - Lines West are in the 900,000 series. The Freight equipment assigned to passenger service USUALLY had 4 or 5 digit numbers Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:56:58 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 Ooops, I sent my message before I was done. In addition to the 50XX series of numbers, 4980 - 4999 was also used for the REA cabins. The other numbers were 5000 - 5034. I have Bowser kit #55038, which is 4989, lettered for American Railway Express, without CK. So it seems this is a legit Bowser model. My records show that I purchased this model in Feb '97, so it has been out a while. Ansdy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:29:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Last Streamlined K4 In a message dated 7/23/99 9:48:17 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << "K-4s #3678  This version will be as built and have all shrouding and trim intact. It will also have Web type drivers. For some reason this engine appears to have been kept intact as built for a longer time than the three others that were streamlined." >> I haven't seen photos of 3678 in later years. I have a photo of 2665 arriving at Chicago August, 1948, and it has most of its streamlining intact, except the tender (as someone else posted, those streamlined tenders on all locos seem to be a pain to get the water scoop in position, so seemed to be the first modifications). By the way, the striping is still there as well, but loco and tender are, shall we say, very heavily weathered (not much evidence of the shiny cylinder covers or lower pilot left, either). I think 2665 was the one of the four whose streamlining lasted into the very early 50's, but would have to hunt down that info. I am fortunate to have picked up an Alco Models version of this loco with a good owner paint job. Runs smooth, but that era of brass isn't very rugged for heavy use. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:49:06 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 The Summer '96 Keystone has a good article about these cars. It lists all the cars converted, and I couldn't find 477297. The closest I could find was 477237, which was converted to REA service in 12/26, and back on 5/36. By closest I mean the 3 and 9 are switched; there were higher number REA cabins. Does the car have both the REA markings and the War Bonds? If so, where are they placed on the car? Between 1937 and 1960 there were only 7 REA cabins, all N5. It seems to be that except for 7 cars, REA and War Bonds are in mutually exclusive eras. Also, if it was in REA scheme, the number should be 50XX, not 477XXX. Maybe the Bowser car represents an REA cabin that got converted back to freight service in the '30s, but was not repainted, except for the number. Then in the '40s the Buy War Bonds lettering was applied. This would be a plausible theory if the number were correct. Regarding 5017, it was lettered for REA until 1933, and then again from 1960 till Penn Central. It seems 5017 is a legit model and 477297 is not. Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rla0220@enter.net Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:12:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Fee Fellow Talkers, IHO any SPF would want the Altoona Book. The PRR is Altoona and Altoona the PRR. I understand the gentlemans feelings about not wanting the book as I have been there and done that and as my appetite grew for information have REGRETTED passing on similar items, for as your library grows you realize how valuable a piece of information can be. Even if it's just one line in the whole book. See you in Altoona Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:19:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] test only testing/testing ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:23:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] X-23 Boxcar Anyone have any in service photo's of a X-23? I'm looking at painting my newly accquired Overland model and need a photo from around 1957. Were any of these left in revenue service or were they all on MW service by this time period? Thanks Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:22:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Fee On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 rla0220@enter.net wrote: > Fellow Talkers, > IHO any SPF would want the Altoona Book. The PRR is Altoona > and Altoona the PRR. I understand the gentlemans feelings about > not wanting the book as I have been there and done that and as my > appetite grew for information have REGRETTED passing on similar > items, for as your library grows you realize how valuable a piece of > information can be. Even if it's just one line in the whole book. How about those of us who already bought it before we knew...? ;-) It's not like we don't want it, we *have it*! (I saw it at the Railroad Museum of PA and bought it, along with like $100 worth of other books, on a whim.) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] The convention book From: Fred G Rea Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:02:07 EDT I have not been able to attend any conventions but I have always bought the book and ben very pleased. Any one that gets "stuck" with one just drop me a line! As for content of the books or the Keystone, I am a Lines West Ohio boy. However, I enjoy learning about parts of the PRR that know little about, even branches on Long Island. I also suspect the stuff that gets published is the result of lucky chance combinations of good material and a willing author, not editorial policy! Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:58:08 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] X-23 Boxcar Hello, There's an article about modelling an HO X-23 from Cannonball Car Shops parts (I wonder if they're still in business) in the June 1986 Model Railroader starting on page 70. The article stated that by 1950, there were less than 1000 X-23s remaining, but didn't give numbers for later years. In my (semieducated) opinion, the X-23s were all gone by 1957 due to the influx of the PS-1 and other boxcars of the 50s, not to mention the X-29 rebuilds. Doug CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > Anyone have any in service photo's of a X-23? I'm looking at painting my > newly accquired Overland model and need a photo from around 1957. Were any of > these left in revenue service or were they all on MW service by this time > period? Thanks Todd Horton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:19:36 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] X-23 Boxcar Newest Equipment Resgister I have is 1954 which lists only two X-23's still in interchange service; #517690 and 538280. My guess would be these were long gone from interchange use by 1957. F. Brua CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > Anyone have any in service photo's of a X-23? I'm looking at painting my > newly accquired Overland model and need a photo from around 1957. Were any of > these left in revenue service or were they all on MW service by this time > period? Thanks Todd Horton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:23:09 -0400 There is an interesting feature on the NS tracks that come down off the Horseshoe Curve into Altoona. I first noticed it at Railfest 98. It appears just west of the 13th Street bridge on the southernmost tracks and occurs where tracks open up into several new tracks. The tracks swing way out to one side before coming back to more normal track spacing. Why? Is this related to car overhang in some way? I can't see how. It is best shown is shown in one of C. Behe's wonderful photographs, captioned "A view of the 13th Street Bridge Construction. Taken from the 12th Street Bridge. 6-4-99" and is shown at http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/bridge.htm It can also be seen on Roger Durfee's photo at http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/7844/PHOTO_PAGES/R11.html Any information would be appreciated. Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:07:41 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] The last streamlined K4s Hello list, Referring once again to my well-worn copy of the Many Faces of the Pennsy K4s, on page 141, the authors state "Pursuant with the takeover of all main line limiteds work by diesels in late 1948, all five K4s were ordered to be destreamlined, but the 5338 managed to retain her fancy overcoat until retirement in 1955." As always, we're left with the printed word when we really want photos. Arrrgh!! In Kramer's Pennsy K4s Remembered, there's a shot on page 19 of the 5338 in 1941, with her streamlining, but she's got no nose cone, and her headlight proudly mounted on high. This would be interesting to model, though quite restrictive in time frame. The author speculates that the engine might have been undergoing testing, repairs, or had fabrication delays to cause such a condition. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Altoona convention List, As of right now I have yet to send in my registration form for the Societys annual meeting to be held in Altoona this year. I do not know if I can make it for sure. If I show up at the convention, say on that Friday morning, am I able to resgister on the spot and then attend the conventions agendas. Not interested in the Lewistown trip. Any answers out there? Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona convention Date: Sat, 24 Jul 99 15:04:19 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/24/99 2:03 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > As of right now I have yet to send in my registration form for the >Societys annual meeting to be held in Altoona this year. I do not know >if I can make it for sure. If I show up at the convention, say on that >Friday morning, am I able to resgister on the spot and then attend the >conventions agendas. Not interested in the Lewistown trip. Any answers >out there? Gary Yes, you can register on the spot. Hope you can make it...we now have a very good agenda! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] The last streamlined K4s Date: Sat, 24 Jul 99 15:03:39 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/24/99 1:07 PM, doug.kisala (doug.kisala@mciworld.com) wrote: >Referring once again to my well-worn copy of the Many Faces of the >Pennsy K4s, >on page 141, the authors state "Pursuant with the takeover of all main >line limiteds work by diesels in late 1948, all five K4s were ordered to >be destreamlined, but the 5338 managed to retain her fancy overcoat >until retirement in 1955." As always, we're left with the printed word >when we really want photos. Arrrgh!! You just made my day, photos or not...that means I can "probably" legitimately model K4 #5338 for my 1954 layout. Good going, old chap! Ya catch that Eddy (at Rail Classics)? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:44:48 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature A picture of this or a similar site was in RNE years ago. A friend told me the jog was to clear a signal which had since been removed. Hopefully someone more closely associated with the area will have an authenticated explanation. Steve Bartlett Roy Breon wrote: > > There is an interesting feature on the NS tracks that come down off the > Horseshoe Curve into Altoona. I first noticed it at Railfest 98. It > appears just west of the 13th Street bridge on the southernmost tracks and > occurs where tracks open up into several new tracks. The tracks swing way > out to one side before coming back to more normal track spacing. Why? Is > this related to car overhang in some way? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona convention Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:04:30 -0400 Gary Mittner wrote: List, As of right now I have yet to send in my registration form for the Societys annual meeting to be held in Altoona this year. I do not know if I can make it for sure. If I show up at the convention, say on that Friday morning, am I able to resgister on the spot and then attend the conventions agendas. Not interested in the Lewistown trip. Any answers out there? Gary Oh, come on Gary, go ahead and register. If you can't make it they'll mail you the Altoona book. Just be sure to order the stuffed pork chop and let me know off-list if you can't go. I'll take care of the rest! :>) Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 17:06:36 -0400 From: 442 Subject: [PRR] Yes, there appears to have been a signal (bidirectional on a single mast) at that location up until the mid to late 90's. 442 Roy Breon wrote: > > There is an interesting feature on the NS tracks that come down off the > Horseshoe Curve into Altoona. I first noticed it at Railfest 98. It > appears just west of the 13th Street bridge on the southernmost tracks and > occurs where tracks open up into several new tracks. The tracks swing way > out to one side before coming back to more normal track spacing. Why? Is > this related to car overhang in some way? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Enola / Overlook Date: Sat, 24 Jul 99 20:04:56 -0400 From: Jerry I visited the Overlook Bridge at the north/west end of Enola tonight... Not a single train in over an hour...not even a light engine! The new bridge is all but open. It's been paved, approach guardrails are up, fences on bridge are up. Looks like the bridge was actually built with railfans in mind...the chainlink fence has head-height windows in it! That's right...about every third or fourth section has a 2' by 6' window centered around eye level. Really cool...so you can take photos without getting a fence in the way! The township built the bridge -- per a plaque already installed -- so you have to give them credit, not the railroad. Yeah! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 03:40:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 Jerry and All, There was a very infomative article published in "THE KEYSTONE" Summer 1996 "PRR CREW EXPRESS CABIN CARS" by Chuck Blardone. The article does include a roster of such cabins, their crew cabin numbers and the freight cabin number they had been converted from. Cabin #477297 does not appear in this list. The crew cabins received four digit numbers and were re-assigned their freight numbers when no longer required for this special service. The cars were leased to Railway Express Agency and lettered "ASSIGENED TO PASSENGER SERVICE RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY". The cars retained Pennsylvania Railroad paint and lettering. The "Buy War Bonds" slogan was used during World War II and it's lettering diagram is shown in this article, with a note dated "10-21-42". The circle keystone or "Keystone on the ball" scheme you refer to was not used on cabin cars at this time. You might recall the N-8 cabins were the only class normally lettered in this way and they were built in the early 1950s. There are always exceptions and I too have seen a few. The N-6b that sat near the gift shop at the Horseshoe Curve comes to mind. The scheme used during W.W.II was freight car color overall 7" PENNSYLVANIA with 7" numbers on sides with a 1" white stripe 3" above and below the name and number. Also see "THE KEYSTONE" Volume 6 Number 4, PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CABIN CARS by Robert L. Johnson and Gary C. Rauch. This scheme was standard on N-5 cabins for nearly fifty years. Ed Martin " a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:32:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] H37b's and H39's Greetings all. I resently purchased a six pack of Stewart H37b hopper for PRR as well as some H39's. Since I'll be using them in my circa 1974-1975 PC coal train on the club layout I am wondering when (if) the friction bearing trucks were replaced with roller bearing ones. Also if an HO scale truck that matches or closely matches the ones applied to the hoppers is available please let me know. Thanks Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:27:37 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Hello from new member & help on Vandalia Line question Greetings from a brand new member (who is also new to the internet-so go easy on me): I stumbled across Rick Tipton's inquiry (April) concerning the existence of two mains between Brazil and Seeleyville, Indiana. I have been researching a book on the Terre Haute & Indianapolis for the past decade, and writing it the past four years. One of the most baffling questions I pursued during that time was exactly when the second main was built, the answer to which eluded me right until the end. If I may, let me fill you in: The original TH&I (nee Terre Haute & Richmond) ran by way of Turner and Staunton, somewhat to the south of the final PRR route between Brazil and Seeleyville. Possessed of a number of major kinks, necessitated by the obstreperousness of several farmers who refused to grant ROW across their land, and handicapped by its narrow width, the original TH&I route was unsuitable for doubletracking. So, when the newly organized Vandalia Railroad undertook the doubletracking of the former TH&I mainline from Knightsville west to Farrington in 1906, it had to build on a brand new ROW between Brazil and Seeleyville. This new line, the line which we all know, was opened in August of 1908. [see VRR 4th Annual Report-1909]. The original line remained in operation for a while as a "local mainline," and bore a daily passenger local up through the early 1930s. It also served a number of strip mines). By the end of WW2, however, it had been demoted to spur status, and like the top portion of the Cambridge City branch in its last years, the so-called "old line" served as a freight car storage. By the end of the forties, actual abandonment occurred from Seeleyville east to Staunton. The Brazil-Staunton segment lasted until the coming of Conrail, primarily to service what became Amax's huge Chinook Mine complex, and the associated explosives plant on its northerly border. The ROW is quite discernable from Brazil to Staunton, including the odd-shaped building in the latter town which was mishapen to accomodate the narrow strip of RR land. In fact, on my last visit in the early 1990s, track was still down from Brazil to the Chinook spur, laid with PRR 85-pound section. This may now be gone due to the abandonment of the THB&E. Brazil is another area which deserves exposition, but I will not bore you with that here. Suffice to say, if anyone is interested in further information concerning the PRR in the Terre Haute vicinity, or the history of the Vandalia, please feel free to e-mail me directly. I have spent countless hours in TH, and have poked around the railroad quite a bit. So, if a Vandalia fan was what you were looking for, you have found one (and a student of the entire Southwestern System). Thank you for the opportunity to contribute. Sorry if I bored anyone. Peace. R.T. Wallis (Van Man) Wheaton, Illinois ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:56:43 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Howdy Roy and everybody: Steve's friend was correct, there was a signal there at one time. I've posted two pictures, which show a before and after kind of thing. The first picture was taken by a recent High School Graduate, on a Lancaster Chapter NRHS trip to the curve sometime in October of 1975. The picture (taken with a Canon TLB using a 50 mm lens) http://www.concentric.net/~wsbcos/pc2445.jpg shows the signal with the 13th (?) street bridge in the background. Check out the condition of the track! The next picture is 9 years later and 8 years into Conrail, taken from the pedestrian bridge looking west out of Altoona. Check out the condition of the railroad now! Lots of other changes from my second picture to the one at http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/Photos/13_St/13_St_June4-5.jpg. Hope it helps Cos wsbcos.com > There is an interesting feature on the NS tracks that come down off the > Horseshoe Curve into Altoona. I first noticed it at Railfest 98. It > appears just west of the 13th Street bridge on the southernmost tracks and > occurs where tracks open up into several new tracks. The tracks swing way > out to one side before coming back to more normal track spacing. Why? Is > this related to car overhang in some way? I can't see how. > > It is best shown is shown in one of C. Behe's wonderful photographs, > captioned "A view of the 13th Street Bridge Construction. Taken from the > 12th Street Bridge. 6-4-99" and is shown at > http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/bridge.htm > > It can also be seen on Roger Durfee's photo at > http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/7844/PHOTO_PAGES/R11.html > > Any information would be appreciated. > > Roy Breon > Pittsford, NY > roybreon@netzero.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:15:17 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Well so much for my posting stuff - its a 6 instead of a 5 and I would guess if I reference a second photo I should at least include its URL. Sorry!!!! http://www.concentric.net/~wsbcos/pc2446.jpg http://www.concentric.net/~wsbcos/oct84.jpg My apologies to everybody! cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:59:41 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Mechanical lubricators applied to K4s locomotives Hello list, I have managed to answer my earlier question about mechanical lubricators applied to K4s pacifics, at least to some extent. I'm going to share what I've gleaned. I was visiting a link from Gary Mittner's page. The site's URL is http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images, which has a really neat collection of PRR steam photos that seldom duplicates what's in my reference books. I went through the entire K-class listing, which has to have at least a hundred photos. Anyway, I found another pair of K4s engines that had mechanical lubricators, but no stokers at that web site. A shot of the 5487 in 1937 shows her with a mechanical lubricator and 110P70 (the rivet line is quite visible, as is the empty space where the stoker would nestle). Another shot of the 1531 in 1936 shows her with a mechanical lubricator and a 90P70 tender. None of the web site photos (or any in my reference books, for that matter) show a stoker-fired K4s without a mechanical lubricator. These two photos on the web page, coupled with the shot of K4s 1497 in `1938 on page 96 of Pennsy Steam: A Second Look, lead me to believe that the K4s modernization program could be quite haphazard; the three engines I've just mentioned have three different tender classes (the 1497 has a 70P70 series tender; I'm not sure of the exact subclass, but it has low coal boards). These three photos are only two years apart, so it seems there was definitely a modernization program that didn't necessarily include stokers for the K4s fleet. Of course, WWII would soon standardize the K4s fleet to include stokers and mechanical lubricators in concert. Any additional comments or clarifications would be welcome!!! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Mechanical lubricators applied to K4s locomotives Doug, Leave it to the Pennsy to make things diffiult to follow. And thanks alot for making me get out my photos again. Just kidding! Everytime I look at these I learn something new. I went through roughly 400 different k4s pics as of right now and have yet to come up with a k4 with a stoker and wthout a lubricator. My guess is the lubricator was the first luxury to be applied. I have spotted a few K's with a Lubrcator and no Stokers like you found on Clint Chamberlins site. Even these are confusing. I have a photo of #3677 taken in 1938 with a lubricator, no stoker but a 130-P-75 tender. Ditto that on #1653 taken in 1939. I also have a photo of #5430 in 1940 with a lubricator, no stoker and a 130-P-75 tender. Even a later dated photo of 1941 shows #3852 with no lubricator , no stoker and still a class 90 tender. Go figure. Too confusing for me. I will stick to just looking at and enjoying the photos and model a specific K4 when it comes time to do another one........Gary PS: I didn't forget to start designing my other webpage where I will post photos of all 425 Pennsy K4s. I did start. But I have lots of work ahead of me. Starting with the scanning of 400+ pics and then all the work putting the page together. In time when I am ready to debut it I will let everyone one know. http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] H37b's and H39's Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:10:28 -0400 The H-39s were delivered with Timken roller bearings. The H-39a's were delivered with experimental Clevite (sealed friction) bearings and a hodge podge of other stuff as I recall. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: FarbLand@aol.com To: PRR-Talk Date: Sunday, July 25, 1999 10:41 AM Subject: [PRR] H37b's and H39's >Greetings all. I resently purchased a six pack of Stewart H37b hopper for PRR >as well as some H39's. Since I'll be using them in my circa 1974-1975 PC coal >train on the club layout I am wondering when (if) the friction bearing trucks >were replaced with roller bearing ones. Also if an HO scale truck that >matches or closely matches the ones applied to the hoppers is available >please let me know. Thanks >Brian C > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona convention Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:44:10 -0400 (EDT) > Friday morning, am I able to resgister on the spot and then attend the > conventions agendas. Not interested in the Lewistown trip. Any answers Yes. But don't make the mistake I made several times: showing up on Saturday and trying to register. They often won't let you register for the banquet. On the other hand, I _did_ get a couple of free meals ... :-) (from people donating the tickets for a now-show in their party) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Roy Breon scribit: > > There is an interesting feature on the NS tracks that come down off the > Horseshoe Curve into Altoona. I first noticed it at Railfest 98. It > appears just west of the 13th Street bridge on the southernmost tracks and > occurs where tracks open up into several new tracks. The tracks swing way > out to one side before coming back to more normal track spacing. Why? Is > this related to car overhang in some way? I can't see how. > > It is best shown is shown in one of C. Behe's wonderful photographs, > captioned "A view of the 13th Street Bridge Construction. Taken from the > 12th Street Bridge. 6-4-99" and is shown at > http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/bridge.htm The tracks are (or at least were ...) going around a signal on a mast between the tracks, and the admittedly weird-looking swing-out-and-back was to provide sufficient clearance. Why the PRR -- the PRR! -- didn't put a signal bridge at that location is beyond me. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:38:28 -0400 Gentlemen: I think that the explanation of the wayside signal makes sense for the change in track horizontal alignment in Altoona. What is curious about it is that the signal has been removed for at least 20 years now. With the repeated track work (ties, rail, surfacing) that Conrail has done over the years, I would think that the track would be realigned within a short time after the signal being removed. I speak (or write) with experience since I used to work for Conrail M of W in the mid to late '80's. You could imagine the CR business train going through Altoona and Stanley Crane or Hagen seeing and then asking, "Why are those tracks curved like that?" When it came to pleasing upper management, Conrail operated as per "easy on the eye, easy on the ass". There would be advantages in straightening the track such as the reduction of wear and tear on track/rolling stock as well as accident potential. I might be wrong, but there could be another reason why those tracks are still aligned that way. My two cents worth. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej [mailto:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 7:43 AM To: roybreon@netzero.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Roy Breon scribit: > > There is an interesting feature on the NS tracks that come down off the > Horseshoe Curve into Altoona. I first noticed it at Railfest 98. It > appears just west of the 13th Street bridge on the southernmost tracks and > occurs where tracks open up into several new tracks. The tracks swing way > out to one side before coming back to more normal track spacing. Why? Is > this related to car overhang in some way? I can't see how. > > It is best shown is shown in one of C. Behe's wonderful photographs, > captioned "A view of the 13th Street Bridge Construction. Taken from the > 12th Street Bridge. 6-4-99" and is shown at > http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/bridge.htm The tracks are (or at least were ...) going around a signal on a mast between the tracks, and the admittedly weird-looking swing-out-and-back was to provide sufficient clearance. Why the PRR -- the PRR! -- didn't put a signal bridge at that location is beyond me. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Andrews, Ted scribit: > I think that the explanation of the wayside signal makes sense for the > change in track horizontal alignment in Altoona. What is curious about it is > that the signal has been removed for at least 20 years now. With the > repeated track work (ties, rail, surfacing) that Conrail has done over the > years, I would think that the track would be realigned within a short time > after the signal being removed. I speak (or write) with experience since I > used to work for Conrail M of W in the mid to late '80's. You could imagine > the CR business train going through Altoona and Stanley Crane or Hagen > seeing and then asking, "Why are those tracks curved like that?" When it > came to pleasing upper management, Conrail operated as per "easy on the eye, > easy on the ass". > There would be advantages in straightening the track such as the reduction > of wear and tear on track/rolling stock as well as accident potential. > I might be wrong, but there could be another reason why those tracks are > still aligned that way. Ted brings up some good points. Now, I'm out of my element here, not having worked in the RR industry, but I do know a thing or two about human nature. Anyway. 1. The tracks probably never got realigned because no work order was ever placed. 2. Perhaps they never got realigned 'cause the civil engineer was paying attention to the "curvature" graph, which pertains to the main line...? (I hope this isn't the reason.) 3. It _shouldn't_ require the CEO asking about the tracks to get them realigned. If it does, this does not reflect well on a) the initiative of the people under him and/or b) their lack of power to do something that makes eminent sense. 4. On the other hand, the tracks shouldn't be realigned just 'cause the CEO asked for it. Unfortunately, sometimes things get done for the upper brass 'cause they want it, not necessarily 'cause it makes business sense. Then again, in the idealistic world I've just painted above, we'd all be guided by Adam Smith's proverbial Invisible Hand at all times ... Anyone know if there's a speed restriction on the stretch of track under discussion? Is it yard trackage, or what is its status? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:45:32 -0700 Two cent's worth time: I don't believe that there was a work order cut to realign the trackage since (1) it cost money and (2) it didn't acomplish anything. Most engineering is done based on a cost-benefit basis, and this particular realignmet had no benefits. Since the trackage already was designed for trackspeed of these particular tracks, no benefit could be obtained by changing it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Bill Daniels scribit: > Two cent's worth time: > > I don't believe that there was a work order cut to realign the trackage > since (1) it cost money and (2) it didn't acomplish anything. > Most engineering is done based on a cost-benefit basis, and this particular > realignmet had no benefits. Since the trackage already was designed for > trackspeed of these particular tracks, no benefit could be obtained by > changing it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Don't know about others, but I for one was not suggesting that a work order should have gone out for this one item by itself. But when already in the area doing other trackwork ... The second part of your comment was exactly why I asked if anyone knows for sure the operational status of that piece of track, whether main, siding, yard track or whatever. If yard track, as you say, it works fine just as is, is slow speed, etc., so who cares. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:11:00 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature From: "Doug and Marianne" Is that a new pedestrian bridge constructed over the mainline between the station and the museum/shopping center? If so, does it have open sides for photography? Do this mean the end of the rickety old pedestrian bridge in the area? Thanks. Doug N. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:26:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature From: "Jerry Britton" > Is that a new pedestrian bridge constructed over the mainline between the > station and the museum/shopping center? > > If so, does it have open sides for photography? Do this mean the end of the > rickety old pedestrian bridge in the area? I don't know all the particulars, but yes, that is a new bridge. It connects the station with the museum grounds and, I believe, the museum invested heavily in its construction. The museum had hoped to use if for a tour they had...passengers board a train at Altoona and head west to Johnstown, where a bus would bring them back. Then, in December or so, Amtrak changed their schedule such that the meet could not be made any longer. I don't know if the museum has rectified this or not. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:54:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature There are a couple of examples of the same thing on the old NYC main into Chicago. In a location visible from I-94 westbound near Gary they single tracked the main and use the westbound side for the track but when it came to a deck girder bridge the line switches to the other side to cross the bridge and back again. There is the signal situation visible eastbound on I-94 after passing the route 20 exit and about one half mile west of Porter Junction where the mainline goes around something nonexistant at this point and several examples on the IC main heading south out of Homewood of the same thing. Is there any possibility that these could absorb some of the expansion and contraction of welded rail and that is why they are still there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:36:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Auto-Racks From: "Jerry Britton" Accurail's Auto-Racks are out in PRR livery. What year did the PRR start using two--level auto-racks? Three-level? How well did Accurail do in representing the PRR version of these cars? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:28:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: "Jerry Britton" Okay folks, the PRRT&HS Convention is now only five weeks out. For those of you who've never been to one, please disregard the early complaints about the schedule of events. Those of us on the list, especially Brad Bower, have worked some wonders to augment the shedule initially offered by the society. There's now a complete agenda, and the vendor and model rooms are always worth a visit. So c'mon out and say hello! So far we've got RSVP's from 26 PRR-Talkers -- just a hair under 8% of our subscriber base. The society usually gets a 10% turnout. You know what I'm getting at...we need more folks to turn out so we can show we are a strong organization. Last year us "onliners" made a few public comments. This year, thanks in part to our own seminar track, people will be asking "What is 'PRR-Talk'?" Folks, this is the beginning of a "political party" of sorts. I think it will lead to the founding of a Cyber Chapter, to subscribers sitting on the board of directors, etc. So, c'mon! BTW: My business will have two tables at the convention, but I have decided to use "PENNSYRR.COM" signage over "Merchandise Service". I want to draw attention to the Internet!!! I did the carpentry for my display over the weekend and have yet to paint it. Then the signs will be printed using my new Epson Stylus 3000 color printer. So look for the image of the engineer using his trainphone...."Home of PRR-Talk and Merchandise Service"!!! PS BTW: Miracle Castings will be a guest manufacturer in my booth, so stop by and see completed BP20 and FM Erie-built models! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:47:01 -0700 Mark and all... While agree that it looks like hell, unless there was a pressing need to realign the track, even though there was track work in the area, I can't see a competent engineer even thinking of realigning it. Most of us think that these realignment are done on a whim, but in reality they are only done if there is a pressing need to do it. Since the jog was originally designed for the design trackspeed of the track, it still should be servicible. I can see a realignment if the track assignments have been changed, and the curve presents a problem, but from what I can see, it is perfectly servicible. Here in deepest, darkest Tucson the SP (whoops...I just can't get used to Yellah Cancer) has had a kink in the main line just west of PFE yard, where a long-ago realingment of the west yard throat resulted in a shifting of the mainline virtually one track north. I first saw this over 20 years ago...it's still there (after several rebuildings of the west end of the yard lead). Trust me on this one...I know how engineers think (I think)!!! Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:54:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature In a message dated 7/26/99 11:58:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, babal@slip.net writes: << If so, does it have open sides for photography? Do this mean the end of the rickety old pedestrian bridge in the area? >> i think the old pedestrian bridge is just being rebuilt. however, its close proximity to the new bridge spells the end for photographing eastbounds from that particular bridge. sean mcdonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:03:05 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Agenda Item Greetings to the group, Should the subject of moving the convention from place to place be readdressed? I rather liked the idea of the convention moving from city to city. Might we have enough numbers present to bring it up from the floor and have a chance of voting a change? Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:13:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Auto-Racks In a message dated 7/26/99 14:17:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << How well did Accurail do in representing the PRR version of these cars? >> Not very. It is the wrong car for PRR. If you can fit the bi level rack on the walthers F89 then you would be much closer to a PRR car. A quick look at the tri-level leads me to believe it is not the correct configuration for the PRR. BUt it needs to be more closely examined for a definitive statement. IN any case you would need to fit the tri-level to the proper flat car for use on the PRR Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:52:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature i believe that the piece of track in question are leads into the altoona yard. from my photos of the interlocking near ALTO tower, you can tell they arent main lines (the 3 main tracks have very new looking ballast). if it isnt a yard track, then its just a siding that is probably infrequently used (who needs sidings with a triple-track main?). sean mcdonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:28:35 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of NDBPRR@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 12:54 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Altoona Track Feature There are a couple of examples of the same thing on the old NYC main into Chicago. In a location visible from I-94 westbound near Gary they single tracked the main and use the westbound side for the track but when it came to a deck girder bridge the line switches to the other side to cross the bridge and back again. There is the signal situation visible eastbound on I-94 after passing the route 20 exit and about one half mile west of Porter Junction where the mainline goes around something nonexistant at this point and several examples on the IC main heading south out of Homewood of the same thing. Is there any possibility that these could absorb some of the expansion and contraction of welded rail and that is why they are still there? =========================================== I'm not familiar with the particular location given above. However, the technique describe above sounds like what is called a cut and throw and was used by the PRR as well as other railroads to take advantage of the best facility when reducing multiple track territory to single track. Use the best bridge, use the best track, etc. A classic example is in northwestern Pennsylvania where the EL (Mainline) and PRR (E&P Branch) had side by side tracks that were relocated in 1960s to accommodate the construction of the Shenango River Reservoir in Sharpsville. For a new side-by-side crossing of the river the EL chose an open deck riveted thru girder bridge, while the PRR used a ballasted deck welded thru girder bridge. When CR combined these facilities in the 1980s they kept the EL main track but cut and threw it to use the old PRR bridge. EL had better track, PRR had a better bridge. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:32:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Agenda Item Since the Convention is about all the vacation I get, I like the idea of visiting various cities - but the "Powers that be" have stated that they are pretty much set on Harrisburg from next year on - The society seems to have grown to the point where Strasburg is pretty much out of the question - unless there are new hotels there that I don't know about Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Agenda Item Date: Mon, 26 Jul 99 17:27:04 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/26/99 4:03 PM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: >Should the subject of moving the convention from place to place be >readdressed? I rather liked the idea of the convention moving from city to >city. Might we have enough numbers present to bring it up from the floor >and have a chance of voting a change? Drew: I don't disagree...and that's saying a lot, since Camp Hill is in my backyard! 2000 is set in Camp Hill...I don't think anything will change that given the short time between conventions. Also, a decent case can be made for returning to Camp Hill in 2002...the 100th birthday of the Rockville Bridge! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:32:25 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Need ETT info about Peoria Br Greetings: I am currently at work on a "Keystone" article about the TH&P and need some specific dates from ETT G.O.s. Problem Number-1 concerns granting the Illinois Terminal trackage rights thru Morton. There is little specific info in print, save the two article series about the IT in the May and June issues of TRAINS magazine, which is unfortunately in error. In an agreement made with the PRR in January of 1954, the IT arranged to move its trains off city streets in Morton and onto about a mile of trackage rights over the Peoria branch. Because the move was contingent on dropping its overhead wire, and the end of electric operations was postponed due to the enforced extension of passenger service until late summer of 1955, it was not until sometime late that year that the actual agreement was put into operation. As indicated in G.O.-201 of SW Reg ETT dated 10-25-66, two junctions were established between the parallel PRR and IT, one at East Morton and one at West Morton. But despite this G.O. the actual arrangement must have been activated much earlier, possibly December. (Incidentally, these two timetable points were renamed in the 1960s as South and North Morton, respectively.) I need a photocopy of the pertinent G.O. as documentation. It may have been issued within SW District ETT-8. (The PRR's annual report to the ICC indicate 9-1-55 as the date of Implementation, but IT track charts indicate the physical connection as not having been completed until 10-55.) Mike Schafer, bless his heart, managed to confuse this 1955 arrangement with another joint-track deal made in the mid-1960s. This second agreement involved building a crossover connection between the PRR and IT at Allentown, Ill, with the PRR moving over to the IT's track and abandoning its own line. (IT track charts indicates completion of this connection in 8-66.) This arrangement may indeed have been a "swap" as Schafer characterized it in TRAINS, for while the PRR moved off its former line east of Morton, the IT moved off its west of that point, abandoning its steep Caldwell Hill grade into East Peoria in favor of the Pennsylvania's line to Farmdale, and over the N&W (nee-LE&W) and the PP&U to Peoria. What is not clear is whether or not the PRR bought IT's Allentown-Morton trackage--which it renamed the Allentown Secondary--or just assumed trackage rights. The PRR did have operational control over this segment; but--get this--according to the USRA's FSP for Conrail, the IT maintained the PRR track from South (East) Morton all the way to Farmdale. This 1966 deal had to have been made for the IT's benefit. PRR traffic on the Peoria branch west of Decatur was almost lifeless, and had been getting that way since the early 1950s. Moreover, as was instructed in later PRR and PC ETT's, the switch at Allentown was to be left lined for the IT, a significant change from the 1956 instructions for the E&W Morton junctions. Again, I need a photocopy of the ETT G.O. implementing this 1966 arrangement, and incidentally, amputating the Peoria Secondary and creating the Allentown Secondary. I would be in the debt of whoever can supply either of these documentary references. Thank you. R. T. Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:01:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Radebaugh and Radebaugh Siding Has anyone been by Radebaugh recently enough to provide a description? "Radebaugh" is (was) on the main line, 0.9 mile east of RG, which was the junction of the Radebaugh Branch, which connected with the Southwest Branch on the south side of Greensburg. "Radebaugh Siding" is on the Radebaugh Branch, 1.1 mile east of RG. I guess my question is: does the Radebaugh Branch parallel the main for a mile east of RG? Or does it split right away at the junction? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:30:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H37b's and H39's Brian: The Stewart truck on the H37b is the as built truck. H39 class (non-PRR built) were originally on the trucks which come with the Stewart car. H39a (PRR built) originally road on PRR Crown trucks salvaged from H21 - Bowser makes these. H39b were H39a cars refitted with ASF trucks. These cars had the capacity rating raised to 154,000 lbs when the ASF trucks were placed under them. I have no photographic evidence of roller bearing trucks being applied by PRR. PC may have used roller bearing trucks on these classes. The first class of PRR hoppers to ride on roller bearing trucks were H42 cylindrical covered hoppers. John Teichmoller's book on the PRR open hoppers will have more detailed information than I have available. It is to be released in the next few weeks. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Agenda Item Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:31:05 -0400 I agree on bringing up moving the convention from place to place. No easy answers, however. Using one place gets a more or less permanent group with a hotel that is used to our needs. Example is this year's Altoona meeting. On the other hand, I thoroughly enjoy visiting other places on the PRR that I wouldn't really bother doing if it weren't for the convention. I think more discussion is needed, and that we should bring it up. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY -----Original Message----- From: Drew McGhee To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Monday, July 26, 1999 5:27 PM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Agenda Item >Greetings to the group, > >Should the subject of moving the convention from place to place be >readdressed? I rather liked the idea of the convention moving from city to >city. Might we have enough numbers present to bring it up from the floor >and have a chance of voting a change? > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA >drm6@psu.edu >http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:13:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS CONVENTION SITES Folks, It's interesting that there's so much interest in possibly moving convention cities from their preordained locations, which is to say within a 75 mile radius of Lancaster. But knowing how fan orgainizations work, I think I can see something brewing up here. It doesn't seem that the existing leadership is overly inclined toward the cyber media, and I'm trying to envision their reaction to the mere introduction of an electronic chapter. If you can get them to swallow that pill, don't expect them to suddenly accept this infant chapter's suggestion to let their predetermined plans be thrown out the window. It ain't gonna happen. These guys have been at the wheel a long time and I don't think they'd take kindly to the tail swinging the dog around like that. PRR-Talk's got what, 300 members? And some of them are not in the PRRT&HS at any rate. The Old Guard has it's own way of doing things, and in many repects they do an excellant job, but in other ways, well, you've got the Lewistown station for example. Much as I'd like to see some variety, I don't expect to. Just my opinion, of course, but don't expect too much at one bite. barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: [PRR] Summary - Interesting Altoona Track Feature Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:27:49 -0400 Many thanks to the many people who commented and sent pictures in response to my question. The answer seems to be that there was a single signal mast there at one time and there was no need to realign the track after the signal was removed. Hal6963 and Wayne Betty provided pictures of the area in addition to the ones that I referred to in my question. As to the question of whether this was a yard lead or mainline -- I do not know the answer to this but is located where the EB trains would enter the yard area after "coming down the mountain". Re the old pedestrian bridge -- I think that I read somewhere that it was closed. But I don't remember where I saw that. The writer had wondered whether it would be closed permanently. I suspect not since one of the photographs at http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/bridge.htm show the bridge being worked on (obviously closed temporarily) and the sidewalk from that bridge to the museum buildings area being improved. Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS CONVENTION SITES Date: Mon, 26 Jul 99 20:45:30 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/26/99 8:13 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >It's interesting that there's so much interest in possibly moving convention >cities from their preordained locations, which is to say within a 75 mile >radius of Lancaster. But knowing how fan orgainizations work, I think I can >see something brewing up here. It doesn't seem that the existing leadership >is overly inclined toward the cyber media, and I'm trying to envision their >reaction to the mere introduction of an electronic chapter. If you can get >them to swallow that pill, don't expect them to suddenly accept this infant >chapter's suggestion to let their predetermined plans be thrown out the >window. It ain't gonna happen. >These guys have been at the wheel a long time and I don't think they'd take >kindly to the tail swinging the dog around like that. PRR-Talk's got what, >300 members? And some of them are not in the PRRT&HS at any rate. The Old >Guard has it's own way of doing things, and in many repects they do an >excellant job, but in other ways, well, you've got the Lewistown station for >example. Much as I'd like to see some variety, I don't expect to. >Just my opinion, of course, but don't expect too much at one bite. Agreed. My "plan" is to provide a good agenda for Friday, leaving the name "PRR-Talk" in everyone's mind. That's it. Don't raise trouble! Then, I have requested a set of by-laws to see what the requirements are to form a chapter. I have already discussed this with Bill Lewis (Northern Central Chapter president) and he thinks all we need is ten people to sign on the dotted line.If that's the case, they legally cannot deny us just because we are "cyber". That being the case, we submit our proposal at the very last minute in order to come up for vote at the next annual meeting (May). Second, and concurrently, two board seats open at each annual meeting. Again, the by-laws will help us here. I suggest we run one person for next May. Last year, I recall the electees receiving around 300 proxy votes. If we get on the official ballot and remind folks we are from the "PRR-Talk" that provided the great agenda at the previous convention... Long-term, we should take over 1/2 of the board seats. That way we retain and respect the heritage of the society and the railroad, while making progress towards seeing the society into the next century. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] K4 / M1 Whistle List, Hello, I am just making a little anouncement conerning my homepage. Many of you who stopped by the past few weeks have no doubt noticed a photograph or two of some PRR Locomotive Whistles. At that time I had a very short sound file posted with one of the photos. I just completeted posting the new sound file that was being prepared for me. This sound is the actual recording of the Whistle being blown. More info is posted with the photo as well. If you have a few minutes to kill, stop on by and check it out. It is located on page 2 of the url listed below. While I am talking PRR Whistles, Is there anyone else out there in PRR-Talk that has any in their collections? It took me over three years to find this one. Does anyone know where I can find out more information on this subject? Blueprints? Photos? Thanks for the moment and enjoy the sounds!..Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] K4 / M1 Whistle List, Hello, I am just making a little anouncement conerning my homepage. Many of you who stopped by the past few weeks have no doubt noticed a photograph or two of some PRR Locomotive Whistles. At that time I had a very short sound file posted with one of the photos. I just completeted posting the new sound file that was being prepared for me. This sound is the actual recording of the Whistle being blown. More info is posted with the photo as well. If you have a few minutes to kill, stop on by and check it out. It is located on page 2 of the url listed below. While I am talking PRR Whistles, Is there anyone else out there in PRR-Talk that has any in their collections? It took me over three years to find this one. Does anyone know where I can find out more information on this subject? Blueprints? Photos? Thanks for the moment and enjoy the sounds!..Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVAN!A ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:37:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: New Member Candidate In a message dated 7/16/99 8:14:50 PM Central Daylight Time, Wire4dcc writes: << s this guy an electrical engineer? It doesn't matter. Electrical degree or not, if Jerry needs an electrical expert, I think you just found one. >> Is Mike an Electrical expert? Jerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS CONVENTION SITES Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:03:55 -0400 (EDT) > Agreed. My "plan" is to provide a good agenda for Friday, leaving the > name "PRR-Talk" in everyone's mind. That's it. Don't raise trouble! Jerry, keep in mind that it may just raise trouble by being in existence at the time something else (Lewistown) was going on. Now ... on why the vendor room was to be open while Lewistown is going on (assuming I'm reading the schedule right), and on what everyone _else_ was supposed to be doing that day, like visiting the vendor room for 8 hours straight, is beyond me. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:15:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS From: "Doug and Marianne" Friends: My complaint is that there is no outreach to members by the national PRRT&HS to participate in the organization, no newsletter, no events or activities other than the annual meeting and receiving the Keystone (no complaints there). It may be their intention for members to participate in local chapters, but for those of us that are geographically challenged (I'm in northern California) there is little opportunity. Other railroad groups have newsletters in addition to their journal to provide more informal information and opportunity for events and connections with other members. I enjoy PRR-Talk because it provides some connection with other people that the national PRRT&HS does not provide. I think that a cyber chapter is one possibility, but I would like to see the organization more open to members. I never saw any requests for programs by members and I have no idea who the organizing committee is or who to contact if I wanted to do a program. I would like to make the point at the business meeting that I would like to see more outreach and communication to members, presenting opportunities to participate in the organization. This could occur through a newsletter, a cyber chapter, or encouraging more local chapters. I've been coming to annual meetings for about 6 years or so (the last Altoona meeting was my first) but I still feel like an outsider. Do other members feel as I do? Thanks for listening. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:52:42 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mechanical lubricators applied to K4s locomotives Gary, Sorry I kept you up nights. One thought occured to me when I read your reply; perhaps the K4s engines with 130P75 tenders (5430 and 3677) had stoker engines on their tenders. I'm not aware of PRR using tender mounted stokers, but it would explain the empty space under the cab. Thanks for your help! Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > Doug, > > Leave it to the Pennsy to make things diffiult to follow. And > thanks alot for making me get out my photos again. Just kidding! > Everytime I look at these I learn something new. I went through roughly > 400 different k4s pics as of right now and have yet to come up with a k4 > with a stoker and wthout a lubricator. My guess is the lubricator was > the first luxury to be applied. I have spotted a few K's with a > Lubrcator and no Stokers like you found on Clint Chamberlins site. Even > these are confusing. I have a photo of #3677 taken in 1938 with a > lubricator, no stoker but a 130-P-75 tender. Ditto that on #1653 taken > in 1939. I also have a photo of #5430 in 1940 with a lubricator, no > stoker and a 130-P-75 tender. Even a later dated photo of 1941 shows > #3852 with no lubricator , no stoker and still a class 90 tender. Go > figure. Too confusing for me. I will stick to just looking at and > enjoying the photos and model a specific K4 when it comes time to do > another one........Gary > > PS: I didn't forget to start designing my other webpage where I will > post photos of all 425 Pennsy K4s. I did start. But I have lots of work > ahead of me. Starting with the scanning of 400+ pics and then all the > work putting the page together. In time when I am ready to debut it I > will let everyone one know. > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:39:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Conventiom In a message dated 7/27/99 12:48:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, babal@slip.net writes: << Other railroad groups have newsletters in addition to their journal to provide more informal information and opportunity for events and connections with other members. I enjoy PRR-Talk because it provides some connection with other people that the national PRRT&HS does not provide. I think that a cyber chapter is one possibility, but I would like to see the organization more open to members. I never saw any requests for programs by members and I have no idea who the organizing committee is or who to contact if I wanted to do a program. I would like to make the point at the business meeting that I would like to see more outreach and communication to members, presenting opportunities to participate in the organization. This could occur through a newsletter, a cyber chapter, or encouraging more local chapters >> It's not just way out west. But there''s the same problem in Ohio. The PRRT&HS is falling into one of the most common traps of volunteer organizations, entropy. The "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," syndrome. If you don't recruit, if you don actively extend a welcoming hand to those who may want to join, one day a small hand-up of the faithful will be standing their scratching their heads, wondering what went wrong as the auctioneer's gavel falls at a liquidation sale. Recruitment of new members is one of the most important activities oof a volunteer organizations. A person's commitment and energy toward an organization is never greater than at that point in time at which they've decided to change their life forever by joining your group, be it the PRRT&HS, a volunteer fire department, church etc. That energy the reenergizes the current memberships allows new people to take on new challenges so the old hands can move on from what they consider drudge work to something new and exciting. Jerry, I would be more comfortable if we started talking about developing strategies for membership growth and marketing. The bigger danger to the society is the aging of the old guard and the need to realize that modeling must become a firm component of any future planning. There will always be geographical rivalries but keeping the convention in eastern Penn for the convenience of a declining portion of the membership institutionalizes decline. A Lines West convention, admittedly not possible for 2005, would be a firm sign to those out here in that vast waste land where only K4s and Otis run only through Crestline on their way to Chicago and Mountains and E units magically appear at CUT and St. Louis Union Terminal that the boys back east are committed to seeing the organization grow and thrive. And understand that any change is stressful, even good change. And that those who may disagree with us feel no less strongly or less sincerely than we do. It may be worth our while that we put our head together and present the Cyber chapter as part of a well-thought out and well-organized growth and marketing program that will strengthen the organization. That's my 2 cents wroth. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:08:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola / Overlook On Sat, 24 Jul 1999, Jerry wrote: > I visited the Overlook Bridge at the north/west end of Enola tonight... Geez, I must have just missed you... > Not a single train in over an hour...not even a light engine! There was heavy traffic sitting up the line, waiting, 3 or 4 trains backed up as far as Duncannon -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:07:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PENNSYRR.COM Additions From: "Jerry Britton" Don't know how many of you have wondered by the top level of PENNSYRR.COM (http://www.pennsyrr.com) lately, but I am now hosting a web site for a "sectional model railroad" group called the Schuylkill Division. They have photos and a track plan online, so stop by and take a look. After many months of working on my eCommerce site and ongoing work for my York book, tomorrow evening I should finally be making some significant additions to my "Keystone Crossings" site. I have numerous (dozens) of site photos to link to, the FAQ on dynamic brakes to post, etc. Watch the "What's New" page for details. Reminder: I offer free web hosting under the PENNSYRR.COM domain to any person or group that has significant data on a specific part of the Pennsy (e.g. lanterns, a single division, etc.). Also host for PRR modeling groups. Just contact me for details. Commercial web hosting, including eCommerce, is available and is what foots the bills for "PRR-Talk", other RR lists, and "Keystone Crossings". So please keep us in mind for your web hosting needs! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Northern Central/Elmira branch Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 16:59:30 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/27/99 4:25 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >Currently I'm in Ithaca, NY. During at least part of the trip up from >Harrisburg I checked out part of the old NC line; Anything interesting I >should look at/for on the way back, if I have time? It looks to be pretty >much gone along most of the way. > >We passed the bridge in Elmira that Caloroso's book said crews tossed >things off; The river is very low because of the drought, I was tempted to >go wading to see if anything was down there:-) For many years we (my wife an I) visited friends in Sayre. The route we took to get there took us along the NCRy from Williamsport to Canton. As long as I remember, the tracks were already pulled. However, many of the bridges remain, and the RoW is often visible winding along the hillside. Man, it must have been beautiful for passengers! Other than the RoW on the hillside and the bridges, I don't hink there is very much in other evidence that the line was ever there. Too bad John Keel passed away, as he was very familiar with this line. During my travels, I did notice that a line bore off from Canton and crossed over to the next valleys where it presumable joined the S&NY/LV. Coloroso's book shows an S&NY branch from Marsh Hill Junction (on the NCRy) to Monroeton, but I am pretty sure the line I saw came out of Canton. I do not know, however, if it truly connected at both ends. Could have just been a feeder. There had been a lot of mining and timbering in the area. Derrick, you commented to me privately that we must have just missed each other at Rockville/Enola/Overlook on Saturday night. You must be on a pretty extensive PRR road trip!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Northern Central/Elmira branch Currently I'm in Ithaca, NY. During at least part of the trip up from Harrisburg I checked out part of the old NC line; Anything interesting I should look at/for on the way back, if I have time? It looks to be pretty much gone along most of the way. We passed the bridge in Elmira that Caloroso's book said crews tossed things off; The river is very low because of the drought, I was tempted to go wading to see if anything was down there:-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:57:49 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Hello list, I would second the idea of a newsletter of some sort. I'm stationed in San Angelo, Texas now after living in the Northeast for almost 30 years. Aside from the culture shock, PRR fans are quite scarce around here. A cyber chapter or newsletter would be nice, though I'm inclined to think that PRR talk already fills the role of a cyber chapter; it serves as an information exchange and forum pretty well. The Anthracite Railroads Historical Society publishes a newsletter several times a year; if it works for them on dues that are less than ours (I should note that the quality of the Keystone more than compensates for any dues issues versus ANY historical society), I'm sure the PRRT&HS could do it, too. Doug Doug and Marianne wrote: > Friends: > > My complaint is that there is no outreach to members by the national PRRT&HS > to participate in the organization, no newsletter, no events or activities > other than the annual meeting and receiving the Keystone (no complaints > there). It may be their intention for members to participate in local > chapters, but for those of us that are geographically challenged (I'm in > northern California) there is little opportunity. > > Other railroad groups have newsletters in addition to their journal to > provide more informal information and opportunity for events and connections > with other members. I enjoy PRR-Talk because it provides some connection > with other people that the national PRRT&HS does not provide. I think that > a cyber chapter is one possibility, but I would like to see the organization > more open to members. > > I never saw any requests for programs by members and I have no idea who the > organizing committee is or who to contact if I wanted to do a program. I > would like to make the point at the business meeting that I would like to > see more outreach and communication to members, presenting opportunities to > participate in the organization. This could occur through a newsletter, a > cyber chapter, or encouraging more local chapters. I've been coming to > annual meetings for about 6 years or so (the last Altoona meeting was my > first) but I still feel like an outsider. > > Do other members feel as I do? > > Thanks for listening. > > Doug Nelson > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] electrified ops Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:55:08 -0400 Currently striving to add more items of a technical nature to my website. Would love to receive insight from RR employees that worked/work over PRR/ex-PRR lines under the wires on day to day operations. Would like to document block tower operations, trainment, engineers, catenary maintenence, and the like. Please contact me offlist. Thanks. -Josh http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/covent/929 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:59:58 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter Doesn't the SNAPPER serve the purpose of a newsletter? It was originally a separate publication but was incorporated into the KEYSTONE many years ago. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:48:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Northern Central/Elmira branch On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Jerry wrote: > Derrick, you commented to me privately that we must have just missed each > other at Rockville/Enola/Overlook on Saturday night. You must be on a > pretty extensive PRR road trip!!! I had to go to Cornell from Pittsburgh and decided to go via the State Archives in Harrisburg... I only had a few minutes to look at one of the microfilms of PRR historical documents from the 1972 Penn Central auction... The debate is whether I'll make a return trip Friday. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:27:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] N5 Road Numbers & Buy War Bonds From: "Jerry Britton" Last week we discussed the new Bowser N5 that reads "Assigned to Passenger Service / Railway Express Agency" and also "Buy War Bonds". The problem is that the road number is 477297. We mutually agreed that such a freight car number was never assigned to an N5 assigned to passenger service! It was further noted that only five of the passenger N5's ever bore the "Buy War Bonds" text. Here's the challenge: I reported all of this to Lee English at Bowser. They are going to change the road number! Please report to me any, if not all, of the five valid road numbers for the N5 cabins that bore "Assigned to Passenger Service / Railway Express Agency" and also "Buy War Bonds". Please provide a reference. First person who can substantiate the proper numbers will get a free model of the N5 in question from "Merchandise Service"! Thanks! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:07:45 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter From: "Doug and Marianne" >Doesn't the SNAPPER serve the purpose of a newsletter? It was >originally a separate publication but was incorporated into the KEYSTONE >many years ago. >-- >Regards, > >Andy Miller The SNAPPER section of the Keystone does contain some news information, but it is still highly formal and does not serve to connect members with the organization. I would like to see more news about members, calls for presentations at the annual meeting, how to contact PRRT&HS officials and members, information on products (low cost advertising for Pennsy related products), calls for volunteer activities, event schedules, reports from chapters, and other relevant information that is currently missing from the Keystone. The Snapper was probably incorporated into the Keystone to save work, but its content is more restricted by the formality of the journal (which is appropriate). I know that this might take some work, but I would be willing to help. This could be an actual newsletter, or it could be via some digital format (this might not be fair to members that do not have computers - perhaps we should ask at the meeting how many in attendance have access to computers?) I really don't even know who to contact to discuss this. I will try to bring this up at the business meeting. I would like to know if there is support for this. Thanks, Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:28:08 -0400 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter For a VERY short time my local chapter of the PRRT&HS (Cleveland, Ohio area) put out a newsletter in the late '80s. I think it was called THE CABIN CAR or some similar name. I got just one or two copies. I suspect that the effort never got very far off the ground. Does anyone know if the other chapters publish a newsletter? Doug and Marianne wrote: > >Doesn't the SNAPPER serve the purpose of a newsletter? It was > >originally a separate publication but was incorporated into the KEYSTONE > >many years ago. > >-- > >Regards, > > > >Andy Miller > > The SNAPPER section of the Keystone does contain some news information, but > it is still highly formal and does not serve to connect members with the > organization. I would like to see more news about members, calls for > presentations at the annual meeting, how to contact PRRT&HS officials and > members, information on products (low cost advertising for Pennsy related > products), calls for volunteer activities, event schedules, reports from > chapters, and other relevant information that is currently missing from the > Keystone. > > The Snapper was probably incorporated into the Keystone to save work, but > its content is more restricted by the formality of the journal (which is > appropriate). > > I know that this might take some work, but I would be willing to help. This > could be an actual newsletter, or it could be via some digital format (this > might not be fair to members that do not have computers - perhaps we should > ask at the meeting how many in attendance have access to computers?) > > I really don't even know who to contact to discuss this. I will try to > bring this up at the business meeting. I would like to know if there is > support for this. > > Thanks, > > Doug Nelson > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter Date: Thu, 29 Jul 99 06:41:17 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/28/99 9:28 PM, DDembinski (DDembinski@Centuryinter.net) wrote: >For a VERY short time my local chapter of the PRRT&HS (Cleveland, Ohio >area) put out a >newsletter in the late '80s. I think it was called THE CABIN CAR or some >similar name. I >got just one or two copies. I suspect that the effort never got very far >off the ground. >Does anyone know if the other chapters publish a newsletter? Yes, the Northern Central Chapter publishes "The Signal Bridge". Some of the back issues are on their web site (http://prrths-ncc.pennsyrr.com) in Acrobat PDF form. I know the Philly Chapter has a newsletter, in addition to their "High Line" publication. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:01:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter The Philadelphia Chapter also publishes a quarterly newsletter that covers their efforts to uncover information and recognize the historical aspects of the PRR. It also has a meeting report of what transpired in their last meeting. After joining I am disappointed that one of the aspects they push in their web site is the publication of the High Line which is an non existant publication in my opinion. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:09:43 -0400 FWIW The Philadelphia Chapter (PRRH&TS) puts out a very nice newsletter 4 to 6 pages in length. Being a powerful and influential member of the NRHS editorial board affords me a second hand copy of each. That's about the only form of pay I receive. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: DDembinski To: Doug and Marianne Cc: Andy Miller ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter >For a VERY short time my local chapter of the PRRT&HS (Cleveland, Ohio area) put out a >newsletter in the late '80s. I think it was called THE CABIN CAR or some similar name. I >got just one or two copies. I suspect that the effort never got very far off the ground. >Does anyone know if the other chapters publish a newsletter? > >Doug and Marianne wrote: > >> >Doesn't the SNAPPER serve the purpose of a newsletter? It was >> >originally a separate publication but was incorporated into the KEYSTONE >> >many years ago. >> >-- >> >Regards, >> > >> >Andy Miller >> >> The SNAPPER section of the Keystone does contain some news information, but >> it is still highly formal and does not serve to connect members with the >> organization. I would like to see more news about members, calls for >> presentations at the annual meeting, how to contact PRRT&HS officials and >> members, information on products (low cost advertising for Pennsy related >> products), calls for volunteer activities, event schedules, reports from >> chapters, and other relevant information that is currently missing from the >> Keystone. >> >> The Snapper was probably incorporated into the Keystone to save work, but >> its content is more restricted by the formality of the journal (which is >> appropriate). >> >> I know that this might take some work, but I would be willing to help. This >> could be an actual newsletter, or it could be via some digital format (this >> might not be fair to members that do not have computers - perhaps we should >> ask at the meeting how many in attendance have access to computers?) >> >> I really don't even know who to contact to discuss this. I will try to >> bring this up at the business meeting. I would like to know if there is >> support for this. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Doug Nelson >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:00:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: PRR Loco Classifications In a message dated 7/28/99 7:01:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KAVS1@ix.netcom.com writes: << Hi, Rick, Know you're tres busy with the Fravert collection and all, and have resisted sending you anything non-auction-related, but the Cinci group has been having a round-robin (see below) on why the J and N classes seem out of chronology in the PRR scheme. Thought we'd offer you a chance to opine, since you of anyone should know (or maybe Brady, should you actually get stumped on some PRR trivia, considered unlikely up here). Also, funny that the road which did not number its engines sequentially, or even have class ranges, would bother to have a semi-chronological class letter scheme. Thanks! Keith >> Hi Keith, You're right, I'm covered up right now. However, I can tell you that this oddity has always been as big a mystery to me as it is to you. Not an answer, but "everybody" knows that long before this classification was in use, there was at least one other. It used a letter like 'T' to describe each class; thus there were many classes just of 4-4-0's. Maybe something like that happened more than once. While we're at it, postwar Pennsy motive power specifications show that the Pennsy went through one or two early diesel classification schemes before it settled on the one "everybody" knows (e.g., a GP-7 is an ERS15, for Emd Road Switcher 15 hundred horsepower). Sorry I wasn't more helpful. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:43:44 -0400 WRT bringing things up at the annual meeting in Altoona, I have found that it's good to bounce them off old hands like Chuck Blardone, Walt Keeley, Ivan Franz, etc. Often they have been brough up before, and it's good to know the past history before we wade in. If it's a good idea, they can help pave the way for us. There is a practical limit to how much change an organization can assimilate in a given period of time without going out of control (I find this frustrating, but it seems to be true). Hopefully we can accelerate change without alienating the old guard/present leaders of the PRRT&HS. I have found these three gentlemen to be particularly helpful, and at least one of them is really good about returning e-mails. Bill Bigler -----Original Message----- From: Doug and Marianne To: Andy Miller ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter > >>Doesn't the SNAPPER serve the purpose of a newsletter? It was >>originally a separate publication but was incorporated into the KEYSTONE >>many years ago. >>-- >>Regards, >> >>Andy Miller > > >The SNAPPER section of the Keystone does contain some news information, but >it is still highly formal and does not serve to connect members with the >organization. I would like to see more news about members, calls for >presentations at the annual meeting, how to contact PRRT&HS officials and >members, information on products (low cost advertising for Pennsy related >products), calls for volunteer activities, event schedules, reports from >chapters, and other relevant information that is currently missing from the >Keystone. > >The Snapper was probably incorporated into the Keystone to save work, but >its content is more restricted by the formality of the journal (which is >appropriate). > >I know that this might take some work, but I would be willing to help. This >could be an actual newsletter, or it could be via some digital format (this >might not be fair to members that do not have computers - perhaps we should >ask at the meeting how many in attendance have access to computers?) > >I really don't even know who to contact to discuss this. I will try to >bring this up at the business meeting. I would like to know if there is >support for this. > >Thanks, > >Doug Nelson > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:26:20 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: PRR Loco Classifications I've always had a theory on this. "J" was initially used as the class for experimental engines. There was an early Prarie type as I recall which was J28 or some such. Perhaps the J1, being a non-PRR design, was tossed into the "experimental" class. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/28/99 7:01:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > KAVS1@ix.netcom.com writes: > > << Hi, Rick, > > Know you're tres busy with the Fravert collection and all, and have resisted > sending you anything non-auction-related, but the Cinci group has been having > a round-robin (see below) on why the J and N classes seem out of chronology > in the PRR scheme. Thought we'd offer you a chance to opine, since you of > anyone should know (or maybe Brady, should you actually get stumped on some > PRR trivia, considered unlikely up here). Also, funny that the road which > did not number its engines sequentially, or even have class ranges, would > bother to have a semi-chronological class letter scheme. > > Thanks! > > Keith >> > Hi Keith, > > You're right, I'm covered up right now. However, I can tell you that this > oddity has always been as big a mystery to me as it is to you. > > Not an answer, but "everybody" knows that long before this classification was > in use, there was at least one other. It used a letter like 'T' to describe > each class; thus there were many classes just of 4-4-0's. Maybe something > like that happened more than once. > > While we're at it, postwar Pennsy motive power specifications show that the > Pennsy went through one or two early diesel classification schemes before it > settled on the one "everybody" knows (e.g., a GP-7 is an ERS15, for Emd Road > Switcher 15 hundred horsepower). > > Sorry I wasn't more helpful. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) > Operating the Panhandle Route > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:50:25 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Classifications >the Cinci group has been having >a round-robin (see below) on why the J and N classes seem out of chronology >in the PRR scheme. Ok, Shooting from the hip...which means this may all be from my imagination...the PRR used what was known as the "Whyte" (White?) system of classification. This is commonly viewed as the assignment of leading axles - powered axles - trailing axles, but I beleive that the Whyte system also assigned the letter and that the PRR's are MOSTLY from that system. Once the PRR got into weird wheel arrangements, then they started creating classes (Like T-1 which really should have been the R-2). To me the odd jumps in classes are E to F (the 4-4-4 should be in between), G to H (the 4-6-2 seems to fit better as H), H to I (the 2-8-2 should be there), and the aforementioned I to J (the 2-10-2 should be between the two). I think that the order does reflect chronology to some degree, but not PRR chronology directly, as the chronology was derived from the RR industry as a whole. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Classifications Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:13:38 -0400 Shouldn't the T-1 have been a DD-3? The GG-1 was two Gs back to back and the DD-1 was two "D"s back to back and the FF-1&2 were two F's back to back (OK then that would have been an A-A, i guess). Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 29, 1999 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Classifications >>the Cinci group has been having >>a round-robin (see below) on why the J and N classes seem out of chronology >>in the PRR scheme. > >Ok, Shooting from the hip...which means this may all be from my >imagination...the PRR used what was known as the "Whyte" (White?) system of >classification. This is commonly viewed as the assignment of leading axles >- powered axles - trailing axles, but I beleive that the Whyte system also >assigned the letter and that the PRR's are MOSTLY from that system. Once >the PRR got into weird wheel arrangements, then they started creating >classes (Like T-1 which really should have been the R-2). To me the odd >jumps in classes are E to F (the 4-4-4 should be in between), G to H (the >4-6-2 seems to fit better as H), H to I (the 2-8-2 should be there), and >the aforementioned I to J (the 2-10-2 should be between the two). > >I think that the order does reflect chronology to some degree, but not PRR >chronology directly, as the chronology was derived from the RR industry as >a whole. > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:01:31 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Classifications Bill asked >Shouldn't the T-1 have been a DD-3? The GG-1 was two Gs back to back and >the DD-1 was two "D"s back to back and the FF-1&2 were two F's back to back >(OK then that would have been an A-A, i guess). Well actually, no...the FF's (2-6+6-2), GG-1 (4-6+6-4), HH-1 (2-8+8-2) etc were articulated and therefore viewed by the PRR as 2 locos coupled. The Q's (4-4-6-4), S-1 (6-4-4-6) and T-1 (4-4-4-4) were rigid framed locos with no articulation. With the Q's and S-1, they just added up the drivers (4+6=10, and 4+4=8). This is why, in the later case, the turbine 6-8-6 was the S-2! This is also why the T-1 should have been the R-2 (4+4=8). Ahhhh, the "standard railroad of the world..." Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: FW: PRR Loco Classifications Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:14:08 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 11:01 AM To: KAVS1@ix.netcom.com; Brady.McGuire@kwikset.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: PRR Loco Classifications Keith, Rick said> Not an answer, but "everybody" knows that long before this classification was in use, there was at least one other. It used a letter like 'T' to describe each class; thus there were many classes just of 4-4-0's. Maybe something like that happened more than once. Actually Lines West Northwestern System (which included the GR&I) used one which used the letter P meaning P.Co and a second letter referring to a specific wheel arrangement as shown below: 4-4-0 = PA, PB, PC, PD and PI 0-6-0 = PF 0-4-0 = PG, PH 4-6-0 = PJ This lasted until January 1 1898 when the NW System adopted the standard PRR class system which had been adopted the year before. While we're at it, postwar Pennsy motive power specifications show that the Pennsy went through one or two early diesel classification schemes before it settled on the one "everybody" knows (e.g., a GP-7 is an ERS15, for Emd Road Switcher 15 hundred horsepower). Actually there were three nomenclature systems for road power: 1. In the first one, a locomotive was considered sets of units so a EMD A-B-A loco was an EF-3, a Baldwin Shark A-B-B-A loco was a BF-4, etc.,etc. 2. In the second nomenclature system the last character became the total HP so the EF-3 became an EF- 45 and the BF-4 became a BF-60, etc. 3. The third one is what we know today, each unit was rated by its own HP. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:17:06 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Classifications Only Bowser's HO T-1. It has two separate mechanisms ;-) The prototype was one rigid frame. Perhaps it should have been the R-2. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Bill Volkmer wrote: > > Shouldn't the T-1 have been a DD-3? The GG-1 was two Gs back to back and > the DD-1 was two "D"s back to back and the FF-1&2 were two F's back to back > (OK then that would have been an A-A, i guess). > > Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:33:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Classifications ACTUALLY, I believe Class J was reserved for the "Prairie" Type 2-6-2. It is true that J-28 & J-29 Experimentals were built - at the same time as the K-28 & K-29 Pacific "Experimentals" the Prairie types, favored by Lines West, lost out to the K-4 and the "Experimentals" were both scrapped, and the class "vacated" by the time the Texas type 2-10-4's - which became J-1 - were built. Classes after L were not part of the original system - and the "out of order" Class N Santa Fe type 2-10-2 was an "add on" after the M - 4-8-2 class Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Classifications Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:11:57 -0700 If the Pennsy had of developed this along the logical lines, would a 4-4+4+4-4 have been a R2-D2? (ecch!!!) Bill Daniels Tucson AZ -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller To: Bill Volkmer ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 29, 1999 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco Classifications >Only Bowser's HO T-1. It has two separate mechanisms ;-) The prototype >was one rigid frame. Perhaps it should have been the R-2. > >Regards, > >Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:24:05 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling tip! From: "Eugene Nowlan" One of the vendors, not Intermountain, at the NMRA Train Show had dismantled one axle. I counted 17 balls, they lost a few. Then directly compared the diameter to the 0.5mm lead in my mechanical pencil, a tad larger- say 0.6-0.7mm. They rolled amazingly well when held between the fingers. Gene Nowlan Sorry Gary Mittner for the duplicate massage. ---------- >From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Modeling tip! >Date: Mon, Jul 19, 1999, 4:45 PM > >List, > > I know there are plenty of modelers on this list so figured I would >share the news of a new product on the market. How many of you would >like to model fullsize, prototype length passenger trains? Plenty of us >I know! Problem is when we place 8-10 cars behind a K4 or M1 the train >stalls somewhere on the layout. Problem is the weight of some cars, >especially the brass passenger cars. The only good cure to avoid the >stalling of trains is to limit the number of cars to 4-6. Yes you could >double head but how many of you bothered putting a kadee coupler on the >pilot of your locos? There maybe a cure once and for all so we can run >long trains.. I just learned that Intermountain released a ball-bearing >axle modification kit. I am just about to start painting 8 Brass NYC >Passenger Cars for someone. The owner of these cars didn't like the way >these tracked on the rails. They semed to drag along when you gave it a >little push. He removed the trucks and installed these new roller >bearing, ball bearing or what ever they are called, on one of these >cars. He placed it on the Glass counter at the local hobby shop and the >car took off by itself. I didn't see it but the people who did were >amazed. It now looks like we can run those Soho, Challenger, and >Oriental Models 12-14 car Broadway and Congressional Limiteds. I plan on >equiping my cars with these Intermountan items too. Has anyone else on >this list heard or installed these already? And what are your opinions? >I believe the price is 6 axles worth for $19.95? .........Gary > > >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY > >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:35:25 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS newsletter From: "Doug and Marianne" Bill: Can you provide email addresses for Chuck Blardone, Walt Keeley,Ivan Franz (or other directors)? I will communicate to them on this subject. Thanks: Doug Nelson ---------- >WRT bringing things up at the annual meeting in Altoona, I have found that >it's good to bounce them off old hands like Chuck Blardone, Walt Keeley, >Ivan Franz, etc. Often they have been brough up before, and it's good to >know the past history before we wade in. If it's a good idea, they can help >pave the way for us. There is a practical limit to how much change an >organization can assimilate in a given period of time without going out of >control (I find this frustrating, but it seems to be true). Hopefully we >can accelerate change without alienating the old guard/present leaders of >the PRRT&HS. I have found these three gentlemen to be particularly helpful, >and at least one of them is really good about returning e-mails. > >Bill Bigler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Altoona & Accommodations Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:50:25 -0400 With the PRRT&HS Convention now less than a month away, I felt this information might be timely. For those traveling near Pittsburgh, PA enroute to the gathering, my railfan Bed & Breakfast (The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP) might serve as a stop-over point either going to Altoona, coming home from, or both. It would provide an excellent "base of operations" for an additional day of Pennsy (albeit NS) railfanning in the Conway/Pittsburgh area. We're less than 15 minutes from Conway Yard (built by the PRR) with both the Ft. Wayne and Youngstown Line mainlines in full view just across the Beaver River. As a bonus, CSX runs through the backyard. Please refer to my website, , for specific information. It will also contain "Railfan News of Conway and the Beaver Valley" on a regular basis. I plan to attend part of the convention in person, but with Altoona less than three hours' driving time, it might be possible for guests to stay here even during--as well as before and after--the convention. We could then "share the ride." I welcome any inquiries off-list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:05:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 In a message dated 7/25/99 3:44:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ELM2@aol.com writes: << The circle keystone or "Keystone on the ball" scheme you refer to was not used on cabin cars at this time. You might recall the N-8 cabins were the only class normally lettered in this way and they were built in the early 1950s. There are always exceptions and I too have seen a few. The N-6b that sat near the gift shop at the Horseshoe Curve comes to mind. The scheme used during W.W.II was freight car color overall 7" PENNSYLVANIA with 7" numbers on sides with a 1" white stripe 3" above and below the name and number. Also see "THE KEYSTONE" Volume 6 Number 4, PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CABIN CARS by Robert L. Johnson and Gary C. Rauch. This scheme was standard on N-5 cabins for nearly fifty years. >> Photo evidence supports the idea that cabin cars received this standard "no keystone" scheme at the start of NK4 in 1926, and kept it (with the noted exceptions) through the CK era (1930-1954). So that's about 30 of those years. I think earlier caboose schemes (NK1, NK2, NK3) exhibit similar lettering styles, but a different layout. The NK4 spotting feature, of course, is the "overline" bar and "underline" bar, bracketing the PENNSYLVANIA and the cabin number. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:05:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Steam locomotives as "units" In a message dated 7/23/99 2:22:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: << One more minor item...steam locomotives are never (well at least to me) >refered to as "units". This is an EMD term, and properly refers to >individual diesel units in a consist. Since steam locomotives were >individually controled, by seperate crews, multiple locomotives on a train >are not considered a "consist". > >> And thus we knew we had a younger crew when, on a 611 fantrip piloted by a GP38, we overheard the 611 referred to as "the second unit". Those riders without radios didn't understand our laughter :^). Bill Daniels offers some real insight into the origin of the term "unit". Of course, the definition gets bent a little by the curious example of the Clinchfield's little 4-6-0, which the Erwin shop forces equipped with a second (diesel) throttle so the steam locomotive's engineer could also control the two or more trailing F units used on fantrips down on the CRR. But, even though the Ten-Wheeler had mu connections on the back of its tender, it still wasn't a "unit" as EMD intended it. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:13:02 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: e-mail addresses Greetings all: I believe you'll find Chuck Blardone's e-mail address on page-2 of The Keystone. Perhaps Chuck can supply the others. As for this Newsletter thing: it sounds like a great idea to me. If someone wants to put together an actual proposal with costs attached, I'll bet they would get a hearing. But this is a volunteer outfit. Anyone interested in seeing such a proposal like this come to fruition better be prepared to get involved, and I mean in all the dirty details. If there are enough dependable souls who will accept the responsibility, the we could indeed have a newsletter worthy to bear the PRRT&HS name. So who's game? Peace. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:48:33 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] 7/30/99 Hoss's Dinner Reservations Update Greetings to the group, As of Friday, July 30, 1999, I have received a reservation request from the following folks for the 5 PM PRR-Talk Dinner get together at Hoss's on Friday, August 27th. There is still time to get the reservations in. I'll provide a final update in three weeks, Friday, August 20th. Drew R. McGhee Jerry Britton Dorman & Susan Wilson Jerry Breon Brad Bower Al Buchan Rick Tipton Ken McCorry Rich Ader + 5 Derrick Brashear + 2 Todd and Lisa Horton Joe Gotaski Dave Wartel Vagel Keller David Seidel Peter Barton Bill Bigler Al Werner Dick Perry Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Steam locomotives as "units" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:54:36 -0700 This term ranks right up there with "friction" bearings (popularized by the fine folks at Timken to deride conventional journal bearings). I understand that there is also a hostler's type of throttle control aboard the ex-SP GS-4 4449 to allow control of trailing units. Now if this technology could only have been applied to steam locomotives... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ > >Bill Daniels offers some real insight into the origin of the term "unit". Of >course, the definition gets bent a little by the curious example of the >Clinchfield's little 4-6-0, which the Erwin shop forces equipped with a >second (diesel) throttle so the steam locomotive's engineer could also >control the two or more trailing F units used on fantrips down on the CRR. >But, even though the Ten-Wheeler had mu connections on the back of its >tender, it still wasn't a "unit" as EMD intended it. > >Rick Tipton > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] Logansport, Indiana Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:23:44 -0400 Dear PRR gang: I am looking for a map of the Logansport area. I have misplaced my own copy which was a PRR map showing the yards, the tracks, and the interlocking towers. Specifically, the map was drafted by the PRR circa 1928 and I believe it was to scale. I think that this map was part of article or a book but I don't know for sure. Has anyone else seen this type map and if so, where? I think that I still have it but I must of hid it from myself :-)~ Before anyone mentions it, I looked on Mark Bej's webpage. He does have maps if the Logansport area along with the yards. However, these maps are schematic sketches and are not the one that I am looking for. The map that I am looking for was a PRR drawing (to scale) of the Logansport area showing the individual tracks, turnouts, yards, etc. i believe the date of the drawing was in the 1920's. Any info. that you can provide I would greatly apprecipate it! Within a few weeks, I am laying down track for my HO scale layout which includes the "Van" interlocking in Logansport. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana P.S.: Mark Bej's website is a great online source for PRR Interlocking diagrams and the 1959 PRR freight schedules. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:53:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania on 7/31/99 From: "Jerry Britton" Just a long shot... Anyone going to Strasburg tomorrow (7/31/99)? Wife'll be outta town and the brainwashing of the children will continue... After a quick stop at the Depot Attic (or whatever it's called) we should arrive at the Strasburg Railroad for an 11 or 11:30 ride and lunch at the picnic area en-route. Following that will be the rest of the afternoon at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Will finish with a visit to the Choo Choo Barn. Anyone else headed that way? We could meet... -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer request! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:34:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] This Kid Learns Quick! From: "Jerry Britton" I took off yesterday to take Ashley, my six year old, to HersheyPark. As we were driving on I-83 and crossing the Susquehanna River, there was an NS-headed train on the former Reading bridge. Ashley asked "Is that a Pennsylvania Railroad train?" I then proceeded to relate to her that the PRR has been gone for 30 years, that it "joined" with another railroad that later ran out of money and was going to close, it was "bought" by the President of the United States in order to keep it running and it was named Conrail and painted blue and white, and that recently part of it was sold to Norfolk Southern. I continued to tell her that the train in question was a Norfolk Southern train. She then said something to the effect of "Oh, I thought it was Pennsylvania Railroad because it was black like your models." Here we go! Lesson two: It's not quite black, it really has a teeny, tiny bit of green in it. They call it Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. Okay, so fifteen minutes later we are getting off 322/422 onto HersheyPark Drive. We pass under the former Reading line and there is a train stopped on it. It has two Conrail diesels at its head. She says "Daddy, there's some of those engines from before Norfolk Southern bought them". Good going! On the way home, just before that same underpass came into view, she said "I wonder if there will be a train on the bridge. Maybe one with dark green namel colors." I was grinning from ear to ear! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Athearn cars and locomotives on special this month! Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:04:28 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Off topic - was [PRR] This Kid Learns Quick! >It has two Conrail diesels at its head. She says "Daddy, there's some of >those engines from before Norfolk Southern bought them". > >Good going! > >On the way home, just before that same underpass came into view, she said "I >wonder if there will be a train on the bridge. Maybe one with dark green >namel colors." > >I was grinning from ear to ear! Nothing like a proud Daddy! I'm trying to start my 13 month old daughter early...When in Boulder CO on vacation recently, "we" decided to get out of mom's hair for a few hours so off we went to Caboose hobbies and then to the Colorado RR Museum in Golden. Here are a few pictures from our "adventure"! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Brianna/Caboose.JPEG http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Brianna/DRGW_F92.JPEG http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Brianna/DRGW_F9.JPEG BTW, Brianna now DEMANDS to see daddy's model trains run at least once a day . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:01:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] More NC/Elmira branch So, I also came back via Elmira/Canton/Williamsport, and got in some more "sightseeing". I was going to compare some things I saw with Caloroso's book, but my copy is gone. Sigh. I checked my whole house... At any rate, I got a picture of an old bridge which crossed the line at Granville Summit, which still stands, just behind the Post Office there. I'll put it somewhere and send a pointer. The station in Canton still stands, and appears to have a Penn Central era sign on it. In Elmira, I actually saw an NS train on the elevated trackage through downtown, but was unable to get a picture. In Williamsport I also caught a glimpse of a train on nearby trackage when I was going by on I-180, two green switchers on point... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:01:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tough Question Hi All, Tough Question (s); Since Soundtraxx offers an assortment of horns, any one know the correct horn for the P2K GP9 and the P2K FA units. They offer Leslie S3, Nathan P3, Nathan M5, Wabco E2, and Wabco. Thanks for any help you can provide. Jerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE:NEWS FLASH PRRT&HS TRIP TO LEWISTOWN IS OFF Date: Fri, 30 Jul 99 17:21:29 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/30/99 4:59 PM, Brad Bower (BowerPRR@aol.com) wrote: >News flash here. > >From Phil Ritter SEc, of the Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS that the PRRT&HS >National has dropped the Lewistown venue 8/27/99, Due to NS issue of >equipment for the excursion as well as lack of interest of folks signing up. >In it's place they are working with Peter Barton to have bus tours of the >Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum~!!!!!!!!!! ;-) LOL LOL LOL LOL --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:13:15 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Boswer T-1 Hey Jerry and anyone else out there too, I want to buy a Bowser T-1 and I also want to get the ALCO remotor kit. What is the fastest way I can get these items? There is a club that has asked for my help to run trains at a county fair and I don't have an HO engine of my own, so I want to get one ASAP. I've got the address of the ALCO fellow and I just found the phone number. How does he usually take payments? Or is there a source for his drive kits that can send to me pronto? Thanks for the Help, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer T-1 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:06:53 -0500 I believe that Bowser (or English) sells the Alco remotoring kits now. Try them direct for both items. You can call their shop tomorrow (Saturday) and find out. Regards, Greg Johnson -----Original Message----- From: Roger Elliott To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:25 PM Subject: [PRR] Boswer T-1 >Hey Jerry and anyone else out there too, >I want to buy a Bowser T-1 and I also want to get the ALCO remotor kit. >What is the fastest way I can get these items? There is a club that has >asked for my help to run trains at a county fair and I don't have an HO >engine of my own, so I want to get one ASAP. > >I've got the address of the ALCO fellow and I just found the phone >number. How does he usually take payments? Or is there a source for >his drive kits that can send to me pronto? > >Thanks for the Help, >Roger Elliott > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer T-1 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 07:06:18 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/30/99 9:13 PM, Roger Elliott (relliott@telis.org) wrote: >I want to buy a Bowser T-1 and I also want to get the ALCO remotor kit. >What is the fastest way I can get these items? There is a club that has >asked for my help to run trains at a county fair and I don't have an HO >engine of my own, so I want to get one ASAP. > >I've got the address of the ALCO fellow and I just found the phone >number. How does he usually take payments? Or is there a source for >his drive kits that can send to me pronto? I don't have a T in stock at the moment. Unless Bowser is out, which has happened to me once, I can usually have one here in two business days. Bowser does sell direct, but at their list price. As for Alco, I'm not sure if they sell direct or not. They take about a week for me to get. If you decide to order through me ("Merchandise Service"), do so over the weekend yet, through the eStore. That way I can FAX my orders in to these two vendors by Sunday night so they can act on them first thing Monday. Thanks for your interest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:18:36 -0700 I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer T-1 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:16:03 -0500 Roger, I believe that Bowser is selling the Alco products themselves now. You might try them at their shop in Montoursville, PA (English's Model R.R. Supply, 717-368-2516). Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Elliott To: Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: [PRR] Boswer T-1 > Hey Jerry and anyone else out there too, > I want to buy a Bowser T-1 and I also want to get the ALCO remotor kit. > What is the fastest way I can get these items? There is a club that has > asked for my help to run trains at a county fair and I don't have an HO > engine of my own, so I want to get one ASAP. > > I've got the address of the ALCO fellow and I just found the phone > number. How does he usually take payments? Or is there a source for > his drive kits that can send to me pronto? > > Thanks for the Help, > Roger Elliott > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:32:10 -0700 Hi Gene... Thought you just liked SP switching locomotives...;-) (yes, I have a copy) There is a copy listed on eBay, on a 10 day auction. Last I saw of it there was only a $5.00 bid, but that will change. Probably your best bet (unless somebody on the list has one he will part with) is one of the used book dealers. A dealer out of Truth or Consequences NM (O.P. Railroad books, Ralph Crispell, 1-505-894-7702)had one a couple of months ago, but I can't guarantee that he still has it left. Going price these days is around $60.00 or so...ten times it's original selling price back in 1963. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: endeimling@mindspring.com To: PRR Forum Date: Saturday, July 31, 1999 9:23 AM Subject: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics >I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The >title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? >Gene Deimling > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 17:11:57 -0400 From: Jerry On 7/31/99 12:18 AM, endeimling@mindspring.com (endeimling@mindspring.com) wrote: >I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The >title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? Interesting...so many people complained about my daily "eBayWatch" posting to this list that I moved it to the Merchandise Service announcement list. One of the above books was just posted on eBay within the past few days...but you would know that if.... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] Main Line work Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 19:53:51 -0400 The SEPTA web page says Amtrak is doing maintenance on the "Main Line". Is this more tie replacement or what? Is PARK reopening? -Josh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!