Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 00:06:30 -0400 From: mark franke Subject: [PRR] (no subject) un-subscribe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 11:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Named Trains- Freight List, Hello, everyone knows that the Pennsy had their Passenger Trains named, right? The Broadway, Red Arrow, Detroit Arrow, The Buffalo Day express are examples. Did you know the Pennsy named Feight Trains too? Below is a small list of named trains that a buddy of mine copied for me. These are dated for 1-23-28 Train AE2 "THE BULLDOG" Akron to Enola -Freight Train BF4 " THE BISON" Buffaloto Enola -Stock Train FW8 "MAN O'WAR" Chicago-Seaboard-stock Train PF8 "THE MASCOT" Chicago-Pitt- Merchand Train CE2 "THE EAGLE" Cleveland to Jersy Ciy- Perishables Train IN2 "THE BULLET" Indianapolis to Enola- Perishables Train MD6 "UNCLE REMUS" Potomac YD. to Grenville- Perishables Train MD12 "THE ORIOLE" Poomac YD. to NEW York- Perishables Train ED2 "THE GAS WAGON" Detroit to Enola- All Freight Train LM4 "THE SPARK PLUG" Cincy to Pitt-Perishables These are just a few of the 35 that is listed on this paper.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 16:22:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Named Trains- Freight I have the complete list (60) from A PRR publication and posted it sometime ago. If any one still needs a copy just let me know. Harold Modeling the Middle Division ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch -- HO Scale Date: Sun, 2 May 99 08:50:15 -0400 From: Jerry HO BRASS, PRR TOOL CAR, NO RESERVE Item #98625437 PRR POLING CAR, BRASS HO, NO RESERVE Item #98621396 ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:08:14 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] updates to "The Limited" Hello everyone, Just a brief note to say that I have just completed a major update to "The Limited". This included ironing the last bugs out of the Search Engine and some restructuring (the fourth major rebuild of the site in 2 years, it keeps growing so.) With the Search Engine on line, I can upload individual click-to illustrations without having the Topic pages on line, which removes the last major bottleneck. I plan to push ahead over the next several months uploading the backlog of illustrations. 8-} BTW: yeah, it's time for another Opinion Poll. This goes into more detail about decorating and packaging. I hope you will drop by and give your input: these Polls really do have an impact on planning and product features. Thank you all for visiting "The Limited"! All my best, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:14:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Named Freights, A mystery to Solve Help! I have an original PRR Document titled "The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Railroad Freight Service." I have shared this with numerous PRR- Talk members. Many have asked the date of the document. Unfortunately it is undated. The front cover has the front view of a steam locomotive inside a keystone and the headlight is the old style oil lantern. There is a drawing inside of the front of a steam locomotive coming toward the viewer and the rear of another train. Both locomotives have round number plates. The cabin car does not have train phone apparatus on the roof. I originally thought the document was from the 40s but now believe it to be older. If anyone could shed some light on this it would be greatly appreciated. Also, no train numbers are listed, lost the name, city of origin, destination, and type of freight carried. Would appreciate a list of train numbers if anyone has them available. I will add the numbers to the list and repost it on PRR Talk. Thanks Harold Modeling the Middle Division ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:22:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Iowa??? In a message dated 4/28/99 8:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: << -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Bej Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 4:53 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR in Iowa??? Mark wrote, Someone (who was it?) at the Lines West Fest was asserting that the PRR reached into Iowa. What gives? -------------------------------- It was Rick Tipton reading from an ancient passenger timetable that showed PRR service into Burlington, IA and some other corn belt burg??? It was late at night but we were all still awake. I think it was 15 or 30 minutes before I kicked you guys out of my room. Al >> Yes, and you saw this yourself in the 1905 Travel Agents Atlas, which I had brought to Xenia. At that time, the Pennsy/Panhandle? had not spun off the TP&W, and service was shown to Keokuk, IA, with a branch to Burlington IA. In my mind, that's an order of magnitude wierder than meditating on the PRR with 3 miles of line in Kentucky. Rick Tipton Drawing all sorts of Lines West stuff from the Jack Fravert collection P.S. The same service is shown on the 1900 Pennsylvania Lines timetable on page 28. It's a PCC&StL Ry page, with Toledo, Peoria, & Western sublettering. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:52:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Named Freights, A mystery to Solve Hal: I have added the train numbers which I have to your list. These are from an AAR publication dated Oct. 1949 and titled "Names and Nicknames of Freight Trains" I have also included the 1949 origin and termination points if different. Also added 6 trains which were not on your list. Rich Orr The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Freight Service 01. The Bulldog – Merchandise – Akron to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 02. Flying Cloud – Merchandise – Buffalo to Pittsburg Scully yard BF2 03. The Bison – Live Stock-Perishable – Buffalo to Seaboard Cities Enola BF4 04. The Crackerjack – Merchandise - Buffalo to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 05. Man O'War – Live Stock – Chicago to Seaboard Cities Harimus Cove, NJ FW8 06. The Packer – Perishable Freight - Chicago to Seaboard Cities Enola CMB 07. The Mercury – Merchandise - Chicago to Seaboard Cities Harimus Cove WS4 08. The Salesman – Merchandise – Chicago to Buffalo Crestline to Demmler BEC2 09. The Mascot – Merchandise – Chicago to Pittsburg gone in 49 10. The Reliable – Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus Enola NW86 11. The Virginian - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus gone in 49 12. The Derby - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Indianapolis Louisville, KY IL2 13. The Colonial - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Louisville gone in 49 14. The Invincible - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Cincinnati Logansport to Richmond, IN CO8 15. Spark Plug - Live Stock-Perishable – Cincinnati to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities Terminate at Pitcairn LM4 16. The Cincinnatus - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 17. The Captivator - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Columbus gone in 49 18. The Straits - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Detroit gone in 49 19. The Forest City - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Cleveland FC2 20. The Eagle - - Perishable-Merchandise – Cleveland to Seaboard Cities Harimus Cove CE2 21. The Gas Wagon - Merchandise - Detroit to Seaboard Cities Enola ED2 22. The Greyhound – Live Stock – E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities Pitcairn PH10 23. Uncle Sam - Perishable Freight - E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities Enola VL2 24. The Eclipse - Merchandise - E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 25. The Trailblazer - Merchandise - E. St. Louis to Pittsburg Pitcairn VL6 26. The Thoroughbred - Live Stock - Indianapolis to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities gone in 49 27. The Bullet - Perishable Freight - Indianapolis to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 28. The Cat Bird - Perishable-Merchandise – Norfolk to New York Harimus Cove D2 29. The Premier - Live Stock - Pittsburg to Seaboard Cities East St. Louis to Greenville NJ SW8 30. The Iron Master - Merchandise - Pittsburg to New York gone in 49 31. The Champion - Perishable-Merchandise – Pittsburg to Wilkes-Barre Pitcairn to Hudson CSB8 32. The Oriole - Perishable Freight – (from Southern States) Washington to New York Potomac Yd. to Harimus Cove MD12 33. The Remus - Perishable Freight – (from Southern States) Washington to Boston gone in 49 34. The Accelerator – Merchandise – Toledo to Pittsburg gone in 49 35. The Rocket - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities Enola to Cincinnati CIN1 36. The Big Smoke – Merchandise – Columbus to Chicago NW85 37. Lightfoot - Perishable Freight - Columbus to Chicago LOGANSPORT NW99 38. The Valet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Louisville GONE IN 49 39. The Miami - Merchandise – Detroit – Cincinnati GONE IN 49 40. The Purple Emperor - Perishable Freight - (from Southern States) Washington to Buffalo GONE IN 49 41. The North Star - Perishable Freight – Pittsburg SCULLY YD. to Buffalo BF1 42. The White Moth - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Ft. Wayne GONE IN 49 43. The Peerless - Merchandise – Pittsburg to Chicago PITCAIRN TO CRESTLINE PF3 44. The Hummer - Merchandise - Pittsburg to St. Louis GONE IN 49 45. The Standard - Merchandise - Pittsburg to Detroit GONE IN 49 46. The Home Run - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to Chicago GONE IN 49 47. The Refiller - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to E. St. Louis GONE IN 49 48. The Dividend - Perishable-Merchandise - Wilkes-Barre to Pittsburg BUTTONWOOD TO ALTOONA PG13 49. The Excelsior - Merchandise – Buffalo to Chicago CRESTLINE BEC1 50. The Challenger - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Chicago CO3 51. The Vamp – Merchandise - Cincinnati to Chicago GONE IN 49 52. The Queen City - Merchandise – Cleveland to Cincinnati FC1 53. The Blue Goose - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities ENOLA to Buffalo BF5 54. The Meteor - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities ENOLA to Cleveland VC1 55. The Arrow - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Detroit GONE IN 49 56. Star Union Line - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Chicago GONE IN 49 57. The Yankee - Perishable-Merchandise – New England to Chicago GONE IN 49 58. The Comet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to St. Louis ENOLA TO EAST ST. LOUIS VL7 59. The Ace - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Pittsburg CHICAGO TO GREENVILLE NJ CG8 60. The Renown - Perishable-Merchandise – Louisville INDIANOPOLIS to Chicago CO5 61. Cock o; the Walk Cincinnati to Detroit DC8 62. The Cornucopia Buffalo to Philadelphia BNY 14 63. The New Englander Altoona to Hudson CSB2 64. The New Yorker Pitcairn to Harimus Cove NY2 65. The Ranchman East St. Louis to Pitcairn VL8 66. The Southwesterner Enola to East St. Louis SW1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 21:45:40 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal and ore on the P&E Bill Volkmer wrote: > > 1- Yes, coal came up over the E&P, was dumped at Erie. Same hoppers were > loaded with ore and taken down to Mt. Carmel to the LV connection. > > ... > 3- About the time that the I-1s were canned, (1957) the ore fields in > Minnesota stopped shipping to Erie and the Bethlehem Steel Co. started > importing ore from Liberia. So diesels were never used. > Bill, I thought that freight sharks were used on the ore drags from Erie. No? -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 00:40:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] O Scale Needs Assessment Survey Results For the person looking for the MP-54's in "O" scale - the pre motorized version is announced by Sunse on their wb page 3rd Rail Division of Sunset Models www.3rdrail.com they are due 'late 99" and are listed at $ 750. for a three car set - with a baggage - extra coaches @ $250 each & no mention of a pantograph version Surprised that Lionel MTH or K-line haven't done this in a scale version - Sunset says it will negotiate 0-42 Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Boy Does eBay Suck Today! Date: Mon, 3 May 99 12:05:45 -0400 From: Jerry In their strive to make things better, eBay has made things suck! The HO Models remain where they were, but they took the Railroadiana and split it into two new categories: General uses the old category number while Paper uses 1445. The combined listing (like it was before) is currently available at category 1444. However, you can't open any items for viewing, which means you can't bid. Also, "My eBay" isn't working today, so I can't get a consolidated view of what's going on in my eBayLife! Further, you can't search for items you are buying or selling, so you know not what is going on via that route either. Guess those of us who are addicted are really hurting today! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:58:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29 Express Boxcars Hi Folks, I'm new to your group and am enjoying your listings. I have a question: did the X29 boxcars that were used in express service have 33" or 36" wheels? Thanks, Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:36:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Boy Does eBay Suck Today! Jerry, Can' Bid, that's the least of my worries. I scored big time at and auction Saturday and can't post any of the items. It's almost all Lionel 027 or tinplate, PRR, so its all for sale. This is costing me money. E-Bay's been off line since 0300 EDT. Tom V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBay Date: Mon, 3 May 99 13:55:09 -0400 From: Jerry Finally got through to eBay...seems to be back up. Their message board shows the bloody trail of goings-on over the past 24 hours. Finally, it's someone else with system problems! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:03:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] eBay Apparently their troubles started Friday with a crash and about two hours off line I've got a bunch of stuff to post. Some 40+ Extra 2200 South's I'm going to list them singly with a description of contents. I'll be taking PICS of the Lionel and Marx (I think) Tinplate tonight. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:50:13 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] P58 and P"70" Saw some interesting things on a visit to the local brass emporium. There is a shortened version of the standard early P70 called the P58 (HO model by ??). Does anyone know where or how the PRR used these? Also, there is a lengthened version of the MP54 (the unpowered commuter coach, not the multiple unit electric) called the P70, but it clearly is not the P70 we all know. The windows are grouped in threes, their are owl-eye portholes in the ends, and the clerestory is the flattened type, with an estimated overall height of 13'-0", a full foot shorter than the normal P70. Incidentally there is a photo of an actual one of these cars in Kratvilles's *Steam Steel & Limiteds* in LIRR paint, with PARLOR CAR lettered beneath the windows, and number 826 near the ends. It rides on short trucks like the early P70's, and has six groups of triple windows. What was the origin of this car? PRR or LIRR? Was it really called P70? How many were built? At least the function is clear, as the LIRR ran many parlors as commuter clubs and on their fancier trains out to the East End. -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:16:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O/ Pennsy Joint Track-Columbus Folks, Thanks for the info so far. Sorry to be so slow at getting out an acknowledgment of your assistance, but I've been pretty tied up the last week or so. Soon's as I can tie up a few loose ends (and get some bills in the mail) I'll make a more civil response to all you kindly folks. I was fortunate to have another B&O fan from the Willard, Ohio area send me a copy of a locally published book naned "Historical Account of B&O Lines 1830-1989" which covers the lines from Sandusky to Newark and the Shawnee Branch, and which offers some nice photo coverage of the area. Hopefully, between printed sources, tapes and whatever maps and oral history i can beg , borrow or rent, a person may be able to get into the spirit of that area. Aside from the physical plant, the actual train operations in the area from Newark to zanesville are of great interest. Guess I better get my sase out to Trains & Stuff for some B&O freight wokings books. Thanks again, and I'll get back with ya's asap. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] P58 and P"70" Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:56:46 -0400 Bob Livingston wrote: > Also, there is a lengthened version of the MP54 (the unpowered commuter > coach, not the multiple unit electric) called the P70, but it clearly is > not the P70 we all know. The windows are grouped in threes, their are > owl-eye portholes in the ends, and the clerestory is the flattened type, > with an estimated overall height of 13'-0", a full foot shorter than the > normal P70. Incidentally there is a photo of an actual one of these > cars in Kratvilles's *Steam Steel & Limiteds* in LIRR paint, with PARLOR > CAR lettered beneath the windows, and number 826 near the ends. It > rides on short trucks like the early P70's, and has six groups of triple > windows. > What was the origin of this car? PRR or LIRR? Was it really called > P70? How many were built? At least the function is clear, as the LIRR > ran many parlors as commuter clubs and on their fancier trains out to > the East End. Cars were ordered by the Pennsy for the LIRR. The PRR took control of the LIRR in 1900. The LIRR was transformed from an independent to a major division of the PRR in fairly short order. While it maintained some of its country ways, it became bigtime nearly overnight. The parlor cars in the 800 series was the Pennsy's way of moving LIRR parlor car service from wooden cars to steel very rapidly. The Pennsy put its classification system in at the LIRR very early on for both coaches and motive power. There is some confusion on nomenclature here since the LIRR operated both traditional parlor car service and commuter club service, the later being a railroad-promoted and run service that catered to the elite on the regular steam commuter runs. The traditional "parlors" were largely built as class PP-70 and I suspect the classification was made that way to make sure no one in the PRR organization confused them with the P-70 coach. In later years, when these cars were rebuilt into coaches, they received P-70a and b classifications. The PP-70's (i.e. the parlors) were numbered 809-833 and were built in the 1911-1917 period by AC&F. 808-818 (1911) 819-826 (1913) 827-828 (1916) 830-833 (1917) (the missing 829 was assigned to an much older car that survived until 1924) 810 and 821 ran in service until the fall of 1971 as coaches! I rode this class many times and am fortunate enough to have one of the original wicker parlor car chairs from one of this class (wish I knew the car!) The railroad began converting these cars into coaches in 1925-26 when the Pullman Company assumed operation of the parlor car service on the LIRR (coincident with the construction of a Pullman yard in Montauk to maintain Pullman's own equipment). Three of the cars were converted to private club car service. One car, #815, was converted during the 20's (believed to be 1925) to #2000 for use as the LIRR's business car (usually assigned to New York Zone VP George LeBoutillier). This car later became the Jamaica and was one of the hallmarks of LIRR parlor car service to The Hamptons and Montauk in the 60's (there are pictures of it in the Keystone). The Jamaica has been preserved. I spent many happy hours on the observation deck of that car. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:48:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Express Boxcars In a message JOELPRR@aol.com writes: << Hi Folks, I'm new to your group and am enjoying your listings. I have a question: did the X29 boxcars that were used in express service have 33" or 36" wheels? Thanks, Joel >> Joel, I have cross posted this to a couple of other list as I am sure your question has crossed the minds of other Pennsy modeler. The answer is the Pennsy X-29's used in express service had 33 inch wheels. Greg Martin Cofounder MEMRA-NEMRA Ask me about RPM --- it's alive! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] **Camden & Amboy South end Canal, Tower and Trestle Tour in Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:28:26 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BE95BC.A501C720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***Since our last Lines East outing ( MG / Trenton and environs south to = BOrdentown ) was so informative and entertaining, we cannot wait to = 'mount up' for another tour !!! BO to CB on the C&A ( Heart of the PRR ) = is being planned for a June departure, between the 11th and 25th. This was Real, Factual, Proven and Touchable History of the PRR !!! Any = other interested parties are welcome to join us. Thanks to our resident = signal experts and historians, maps, diagrams, photos, interlocking = charts of 'then and now', etc., will be available for this tour packet, = also. The 1929 diagram of BO interlocking was fully confirmed by = physical evidence, which exactly matched the photos from back then !=20 On our last tour ( despite what TVPedro said about 'sliver' not being a = railroad term ), we actually found a few ! Our group's MofW expert is = anal-yzing them now. We even experienced a 'close encounter' of the = Conrail kind, luckily NOT on the BO to BD trestle. So bring the DEET and the leg-straps and come on out for a PRR day along = the Delaware ! Bill P.S.: Jerry, might you select a different verb for expressing your = displeasure with eBay ??? That was not very civil of you....***=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BE95BC.A501C720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
***Since our last Lines East outing ( MG / Trenton and environs = south to=20 BOrdentown ) was so informative and entertaining, we cannot wait to = 'mount up'=20 for another tour !!! BO to CB on the C&A ( Heart of the PRR ) is = being=20 planned for a June departure, between the 11th and 25th.
 
This was Real, Factual, Proven and Touchable History of the = PRR !!!=20 Any other interested parties are welcome to join us. Thanks to our = resident=20 signal experts and historians, maps, diagrams, photos, interlocking = charts of=20 'then and now', etc., will be available for this tour packet, also. The = 1929=20 diagram of BO interlocking was fully confirmed by physical evidence, = which=20 exactly matched the photos from back then !
 
On our last tour ( despite what TVPedro said about 'sliver' not = being a=20 railroad term ), we actually found a few !  Our group's MofW expert = is=20 anal-yzing them now. We even experienced a 'close encounter' of the = Conrail=20 kind, luckily NOT on the BO to BD trestle.
 
So bring the DEET and the leg-straps and come on out for a PRR day = along=20 the Delaware !  Bill
 
P.S.: Jerry, might you select a different verb for expressing your=20 displeasure with eBay ??? That was not very civil of=20 you....*** 
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BE95BC.A501C720-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Tue, 4 May 99 08:19:04 -0400 From: Jerry Rivarossi HW PRR Work Train Diner, NEW Item #99463011 SPECTRUM PRR PRE-WAR 6 CAR PASSENGER SET Item #99389502 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question I've been scouring the Net looking for maps of the PRR lines on southeastern Pa and the nearby parts of Maryland and Delaware. That led me to the railroad map collection at the Library of Congress site. The 1896 RR Map of Penna there shows something odd. As I understand it, when Mason and Dixon were commissioned to survey the southern boundary of Penna, they were instructed to strike an arc centered on the courthouse at New Castle, Del., to give that town some "breathing room". On the map in question that arc continues until it intersects the eastern boundary of Maryland. That is, it shows a little spur of Pennsylvania sticking down between Maryland and Delaware. Looking at the 1895 atlas pages on a server at Johns-Hopkins, the Penna map shows no such thing, but the map of Maryland/Delaware (they're on one page) does show it. So, any of you guys know if there was some border dispute, or turn of the century revision of the state line or what? Maybe it's just a couple of draftmen with screwy ideas. But then, the 1896 map was issued by the Secretary of Internal Affairs and you'd think he would know where the state line was. To get back to railroads, the 1896 map says the Baltimore-Philadelphia line of the B&O passed through tip of that spur. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:33:38 -0400 (EDT) > On the map in question that arc continues until it > intersects the eastern boundary of Maryland. That is, > it shows a little spur of Pennsylvania sticking down > between Maryland and Delaware. Interesting. The current border between Delaware and Pa. is, for almost all of its distance, circular. The only such border in the U.S. [standard Jeopardy question]. 12 miles from New Castle. But then there is a wee smidgeon of a straight line before Maryland proper starts. > So, any of you guys know if there was some border > dispute, or turn of the century revision of the state > line or what? Maybe it's just a couple of draftmen > with screwy ideas. But then, the 1896 map was issued > by the Secretary of Internal Affairs and you'd think > he would know where the state line was. I was _just_ reading somewhere, recently, within the past couple of weeks, that some of these borders were not finally settled until the 19th century. It may be in my copy of the _Atlas of Pennsylvania_. Bob, if you call me MWF in the evening, I could look it up. > To get back to railroads, the 1896 map says the > Baltimore-Philadelphia line of the B&O passed through > tip of that spur. Eh? I've been to the "tri-state area". There's not much there. Mainly a state park on the Pa. side of the border, accessed from a little road within Delaware! I also always wondered where the Mason-Dixon line zeroth-mile marker stone is, whether there or elsewhere. At any rate, the B&O is much closer to town (Wilmington). The only thing slightly "nearby" is the RDG branch north to Coatesville, but this thing passes several miles east of the tri-state junction. And you thought YOU had property tax problems! Imagine the PRR (or PB&W, or PW&B, or ...) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] New email address Friends, Please take note of my new email address: rla0220@enter.net This is my last web tv message. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:18:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] "O" scale X-29 For those who requested an X-29 in the recent survey, Ron Sebastian of Des Plaines Hobbies advises me that there will be a limited re-run of their cast resin kits to fill advance orders. They are trying to have the kits made by the end of June, for delivery at the "O" Scale National - cost is $60.00 each, plus shipping. Orders are still being accepted. You may E-mail Ron at: dphobbies@earthlink.net or check their web site: www.desplaineshobbies.com Des Plaines Hobbies Welcomes You! Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:08:46 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Md.,Pa.,Del border Hi All... According to old World Book maps and articles..... Mason and Dixon laid out their Mason-Dixon line between 1763 and 1767. Surveys were also done in 1849 and 1900. Looking at present day maps of the northwest corner of Deleware you will see where the northern Md.-Pa. line extends to form the Pa.-Del.line until it meets the 12 mile arc. (Just west of present day Newark,Del.) If the 12 mile arc line at one time was the boundry between Pa. and Del. and it was south of the latitude of the Md.-Pa. part of the line its possible it could have been changed during the 1900 survey. 1849 and 1900 surveys only found minor mistakes in the original Mason-Dixon line. Its possible that one of these minor mistakes was that the line was to extend into Deleware and had'nt been done or markers to prove this were lost and the mistake was'nt noticed until the later surveys. The line was resurveyed over the years, for one as people had taken the mile markers that Mason and Dixon had put in place during the original survey and border disputes happened from time to time for this reason. I don't know what taxes were for railroad property then....but it is also possible that the B & O (and maybe PRR) supported the state line change. Remember that the B & O had built this main line because it had lost the P,W & B to the PRR. Its also possible that the state line was changed because of the building of this line so the B & O (if the line was a separate corporate entity at the time of charter for the line) so the B & O did'nt have to incorporate another charter for the line in the state of Pennsylvania. Further its also a possibility that the state of Deleware supported it. Besides gaining land ,Deleware might have used the change as a incentive to have the B & O build its line through Deleware. All of this is speculation at this point until someone can come up with a concrete and proven reason for the change. But its something to think about. This would'nt be the first time a state,city or county line was changed for a railroad if thats the case. Remember land was granted out west for railroads and settlers near the railroads. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question From: Michael E Allen Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 01:48:59 EDT Marc et alia; After some quick work with a straight edge, square, and protractor on a Rand McNally road atlas [hence there is some error in the numbers, probably not more than a few hundred yards] and with the understanding that I have no legal description of the boundaries easily available here, Professor Allen postulates: Given that: 1. The arc defining the DE/PA border has a radius of slightly less than 12 miles [11.79]; 2. The east/west portion of the DE/PA border is slightly over 1 mile in length. 3. The tri-state corner is +/-12 . 5 miles from my plotted center point of the arc; 4. The point along the DE/MD border which is due [map] west of my plotted center point of the arc is equidistant from such center point as the points on the arc; 5. The remainder of DE/MD border is a line tangent to the arc if the arc is continued to a point slightly south of the east-west line described in 3.; >From the above , coupled with Dr. Bej's field observations we may infer any or all of the following:. A. Messieurs Mason and Dixon had some difficulty in throwing the arc; B. The size of the arc they were to survey was determined by a government official [read bureaucrat] who failed to grasp the practicality of defining its radius as the distance from the courthouse to the surveyed north east corner of Maryland and insisted on an arbitrary [and incorrect] definition based on approximate distance. [Note it is entirely possible that he suffered from trixadecaphobia and would rather screw up the state lines than have a 13 nile radius arc.]; or, C. The person[s] who actually wrote the legal descriptions of the boundaries did not proofread their descriptions against the surveyor's notes. In other words, somebody goofed. From the slight easterly change of direction of th DE/PA border at Rte 2 it appears that the correction was made by dividing the spur between Delaware and Maryland, rather than fixing the arc! If anybody else wants to really research this one I'd like to know the answer. And for extra credit... What about the land border between Delaware and New Jersey? Obligatory PRR-related content: 1. I discovered the land border during a trip exploring the Salem and Penns Grove Branches when we threw in some bird watching. 2. The earliest PRR corporate predessor of which I am aware was the New Castle and Frenchtown Turnpike Company of the 1620s. MEA On Tue, 4 May 1999 15:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Mark Bej writes: >> On the map in question that arc continues until it >> intersects the eastern boundary of Maryland. That is, >> it shows a little spur of Pennsylvania sticking down >> between Maryland and Delaware. > >Interesting. > >The current border between Delaware and Pa. is, for almost >all of its distance, circular. The only such border in >the U.S. [standard Jeopardy question]. 12 miles from >New Castle. But then there is a wee smidgeon of a >straight line before Maryland proper starts. > >> So, any of you guys know if there was some border >> dispute, or turn of the century revision of the state >> line or what? Maybe it's just a couple of draftmen >> with screwy ideas. But then, the 1896 map was issued >> by the Secretary of Internal Affairs and you'd think >> he would know where the state line was. > >I was _just_ reading somewhere, recently, within the >past couple of weeks, that some of these borders were not >finally settled until the 19th century. It may be in my >copy of the _Atlas of Pennsylvania_. Bob, if you call me >MWF in the evening, I could look it up. > >> To get back to railroads, the 1896 map says the >> Baltimore-Philadelphia line of the B&O passed through >> tip of that spur. > >Eh? > >I've been to the "tri-state area". There's not much there. >Mainly a state park on the Pa. side of the border, accessed >from a little road within Delaware! I also always wondered >where the Mason-Dixon line zeroth-mile marker stone is, whether >there or elsewhere. > >At any rate, the B&O is much closer to town (Wilmington). >The only thing slightly "nearby" is the RDG branch north >to Coatesville, but this thing passes several miles east >of the tri-state junction. > >And you thought YOU had property tax problems! Imagine the PRR >(or PB&W, or PW&B, or ...) > >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off >this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] **CR OCS... Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 03:10:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE96A4.CDF76CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***The CR OCS is out running, went up the NYSW Monday, and this might be = its final tour as CR, if any are interested. Bill*** ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE96A4.CDF76CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
***The CR OCS is out running, went up the NYSW = Monday, and=20 this might be its final tour as CR, if any are interested.=20 Bill***
------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE96A4.CDF76CA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: OCS This Week Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:01:48 -0400 > OCS-301 > SELKIRK TO TOLEDO OH > TUESDAY MAY 4, 1999 DAY >SELKIRK OR 0530 ET 1 >DEWITT PS 0800 ET 1 >BUFFALO-FRONTIER AR 1030 ET 1 >BUFFALO-FRONTIER LV 1045 ET 1 >CP-97 - PA PS 1230 ET 1 >COLLINWOOD *AR 1345 ET 1 >COLLINWOOD LV 1415 ET 1 >CP-9 - OH PS 1430 ET 1 >TOLEDO-AIRLINE TE 1645 ET 1 > > > OCS-501 > *** DIVISION GENERAL MANAGERS **** > ***** TOLEDO TO INDIANAPOLIS ***** > WEDNESDAY MAY 5, 1998 DAY > TOLEDO-AIRLINE OR 0700 ET 1 > ELKHART *AR 0815 CT 1 > ELKHART LV 0915 CT 1 > CP-3 - IN PS 0945 CT 1 > ANDERSON PS 1300 CT 1 > INDIANAPOLIS, IN TE 1740 CT 1 > > OCS-601 >*** DIVISION GENERAL MANAGERS **** >***** AMTRAK DEPOT TO CONWAY ***** >THURSDAY MAY 6 1999 DAY >INDIANAPOLIS, IN OR 0800 CT 1 >CRESTLINE *AR 1215 ET 1 >CRESTLINE LV 1230 ET 1 >ALLIANCE PS 1445 ET 1 >CONWAY TE 1615 ET 1 > > OCS-401 > CONWAY TO ALTOONA >FRIDAY MAY 7 1999 DAY >CONWAY OR 0800 ET 1 >ALTOONA TE 1115 ET 1 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 07:53:31 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question >And for extra credit... >What about the land border between Delaware and New Jersey? I believe that Deleware owns up to the low tide mark on the Jersey Shore...This leads to some interesting problemns for New Jersey as new piers etc must be approved by the proper Deleware authorities. Imagine if you will, a competing New Jersey firm seeking to build a pier for Deleware River access...think De would allow that? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: History to Ride the Rails from Philadelphia to Scranton Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:22:05 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: AOLNews@aol.com [mailto:AOLNews@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 6:28 PM To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: History to Ride the Rails from Philadelphia to Scranton History to Ride the Rails from Philadelphia to Scranton SCRANTON, Pa., May 4 /PRNewswire/ -- History and elegance will take center stage upon the rails, as the Buy-Miles Purchasing Group will conduct an excursion of fully restored private business coaches from Philadelphia to the Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton. The May 7th trip will originate from the 30th Street Station in Philadelphia at 7:00 A.M. and arrive in Scranton at approximately 7:00 P.M. The Buy-Miles Purchasing Group is an organization of vintage railroad business car collectors that will parade as many as twelve fully restored business coaches throughout Eastern Pennsylvania and into Steamtown. This will be the first time ever that so many coaches of this nature have entered the confines of Steamtown. Included in the excursion on Friday will be the Pennsylvania Railroad 120. The PRR 120 was the Presidents car of the Pennsylvania Railroad and was the same car that carried the body of Robert Kennedy after his assassination. Among the events planned while in Scranton, is a special private trip to Analomink on Saturday morning and added interpretive programs that will showcase the remaining coaches that will be exhibited at Steamtown throughout the day. Included in the display at the park will be the Lehigh Valley 353. Originally purchased in 1916 by the Lehigh Valley Railroad, the all-steel, mahogany interior 353 has been fully restored to its original charm and majesty. The 353 is today's equivalent of a corporate business jet. Among the dignitaries to ride the 353 include Richard Nixon and General Douglas MacArthur. Rail fans and historians alike are encouraged to come out and view the excursion as it passes through the Keystone State. This moving depiction of yesteryear has not been duplicated since rail travel was the transportation norm instead of the exception. After the 7:00 a.m. departure, the excursion will reach the North Reading Yard at 9:25 (mile 65.9), and Port Clinton at 10:00 (mile 82.5). After a 10:45 departure from Port Clinton, they will arrive in Packerton at 1:10 p.m. (mile 125.2). A special photo run-by is scheduled at Barndoor as the excursion leaves the M & H Junction at 2:25 (mile 134.5). As the cars roar towards Steamtown, they will make a stop in Pittston at 4:30 (mile 181.8). The group will depart Pittston at 5:00 and arrive at Steamtown at approximately 6:30-6:45. CONTACT: J.R. Rupp, 800-22-WELCOME, or Ralph Coury 570-340-5185, both of the PA Northeast Visitor Bureau. SOURCE PA Northeast Visitor Bureau CO: PA Northeast Visitor Bureau ST: Pennsylvania IN: LEI SU: 05/04/99 18:27 EDT http://www.prnewswire.com To edit your profile, go to keyword NewsProfiles . For all of today's news, go to keyword News. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pa/MD/Del state line question Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:26:10 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 8:54 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question >And for extra credit... >What about the land border between Delaware and New Jersey? I believe that Deleware owns up to the low tide mark on the Jersey Shore...This leads to some interesting problemns for New Jersey as new piers etc must be approved by the proper Deleware authorities. Imagine if you will, a competing New Jersey firm seeking to build a pier for Deleware River access...think De would allow that? ------------------------------ This is correct, it has also posed some law enforcement problems, i.e. committing crimes on the Jersey side between the high and low water lines which is really Delaware. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Wed, 5 May 99 09:18:01 -0400 From: Jerry Proto 2000 PRR SW9/1200 New No Reserve 5 Days Item #99913653 <---------road #8521 SUNSET BRASS PRR N5C CABOOSE W / ANT. NR Item #99896413 BACHMANN PRR HEAVYWEIGHT PASSENGER 3 CAR SET Item #99746416 BACHMANN PRR HEAVYWEIGHT PASSENGER 3 CAR SET Item #99745722 P.R.R. CAB SIGNAL COVER Item #100049908 <-----supposedly from a K-4s ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Trains to be Modeled Date: Wed, 5 May 99 11:27:10 -0400 From: Jerry For those who are interested, I have updated the web site for my planned layout. It now includes the list of trains to be modeled. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ The list includes passenger and through freights, 28 in all. The freights are based on the April 1954 timetable and will be updated to the September 1954 timetable once I find one. This will see the addition of TrucTrain service. Also yet to be added are local freights and interchange traffic with the Reading Company. Once I complete the consist data on the "24 Hours at Harrisburg" page (hopefully tonight) I will create sub-pages from the above URL that will list each car in each consist, indicating if I have built it yet, and whose car/sides I used. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 Date: Wed, 5 May 99 13:41:22 -0400 From: Jerry Anyone hear of any future P1K locomotive projects? LL has been mum on future P2K announcements given the lateness of their current announcements. Guess the E6 is now shipping, but the 2nd run of GP7's is now a month overdue. The GP30's are still due this summer. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars Revisited Date: Wed, 5 May 99 15:54:17 -0400 From: Jerry Was just delving through the "PRR-Talk" archives trying to locate a post about the "Makeup of Trains" book's reference to a "MS60" (Mail Storage) in a consist. At the time (last December) most listers agreed that this was just a B60 assigned to mail storage duty. However, one response said... BTW, I have always assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the passenger car consist book reference to an "MS60 (X29)" referred to the X42 mail storage car. Or were they just indicating either a B60 or X29 for mail storage? This wasn't a statement that an MS60 could also be an X??, but I'd like to throw the question out to the masses: Was the designation "MS60" generic for a group of several classes, including the B60? If so, what other classes qualified to fill a MS60 slot in a consist? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Class PB-70 Schemes Date: Wed, 5 May 99 14:19:59 -0400 From: Jerry During my documenting "24 Hours at Harrisburg", the "Makeup of Trains" book from the New York Division, dated 9/26/54, reveals several "schemes" of class PB-70. Following each declaration that a train consist includes "PB-70" it will read "Scheme 3", "Scheme 4", or "Scheme 6". (I think those were the only three, but there may have been others.) What do these refer to? Were there varying internal arrangements? Or was it a paint scheme? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains to be Modeled Date: Wed, 5 May 99 14:52:19 -0400 From: Jerry Bruce asked me this question privately, but I'd like to pose it to the group, as I don't have the answer and this has always bugged me... On 5/5/99 2:34 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >I noticed the 9:01 p.m. 29 The Broadway Limited...a quick question...one >of my PRR videos has "the Washington Section of the Broadway" coming off >the Columbia branch headed for Harisburg "in the Amtrak era". Was there a >Washington Section of the Broadway in 1954? If so, did it come from >Baltimore on the NC, or did it come up the C&PD/Columbia Branch? As of 1954, there was no Washington section of the BW as the Liberty Limited was running this service via the Northern Central Branch. I've got that video also, and it drives me nuts!!! (I think the video is Penn Valley Pictures' "Under the Catenary", but I'm not sure.) The Washington section of the "Broadway Limited" was made its own train, the "Liberty Limited" in ??? The "Liberty Limited" at some point dissolved as ridership dropped and, I guess, once again became a section of the "Broadway Limited". I would assume that, as in other years and with other trains, the sections rejoined at Harrisburg. Normally, these trains would travel up the Northern Central branch from Baltimore, through York, over the Cumberland Valley bridge, and into Harrisburg. Why would this video show the "Washington section" coming in off the Columbia Branch then? In 1972, Hurricane Agnes ripped apart the Northern Central Branch, particularly between York and the Maryland line. The line has, on average, two bridges per mile. It was deemed too expensive to repair given the amount of use. Remember that by this point all through freight traffic was coming up the "Port Road" and the Atglen & Susquehanna branch to Enola. (The bridges were repaired much later...Enola to York by Conrail, York to New Freedom by Emmons.) Now, with the bridges out due to Agnes, re-routing was needed. It would seem most likely that the trains would have followed the Columbia & Port Deposit (Port Road) from Perryville to Columbia, then would have taken the Columbia Branch from Columbia to Royalton (Middletown), joining the "main line" at ROY, just east of Harrisburg, so the meet could still be made. Alternatively, they might have taken the Atglen & Susquehanna across Shocks Mill Bridge, to LEMO, and back across the CV bridge (although Shocks Mill Bridge had two spans washed out for a few weeks). The route I described above makes sense, except that the video shows footage of the "Washington section" passing what I believe is the Middletown passenger station...which is on the "main line" east of the junction with the Columbia Branch! IMHO, the video miss-identifies its subject. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:47:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 In a message dated 5/5/99 1:28:53 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << LL has been mum on future P2K announcements given the lateness of their current announcements. Guess the E6 is now shipping, but the 2nd run of GP7's is now a month overdue. The GP30's are still due this summer. >> Reading the publicity, it doesn't sound like they are going to do the C-liners south of the (Canadian) border. Or does someone know differently? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:24:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Update: Limiteds of PRR Freight Service The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Freight Service Please read the end notes before reading this list. 01. The Bulldog – Merchandise – Akron to Seaboard Cities* [AE2, Akron to Enola, all freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 02. Flying Cloud – Merchandise – Buffalo to Pittsburg [BF2, all freight} (BF2, Scully Yard) 03. The Bison – Live Stock-Perishable – Buffalo to Seaboard Cities* [BF4, Buffalo to Enola] (BF4, Enola) 04. The Crackerjack – Merchandise - Buffalo to Seaboard Cities* [BF16, Buffalo to Enola, all freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 05. Man O'War – Live Stock – Chicago to Seaboard Cities* (FW8, Harimus Cove, NJ) 06. The Packer – Perishable Freight - Chicago to Seaboard Cities* [CMB, Chicago to Enola] (CMB, Enola) 07. The Mercury – Merchandise - Chicago to [PF2, Enola] Seaboard Cities* (WS4, Harimus Cove, NJ) 08. The Salesman – Merchandise– Chicago to Buffalo [BEC2, All Freight] (BEC2, Crestline to Demmier) 09. The Mascot – Merchandise – Chicago to Pittsburg [PF8] (no longer listed in 1949) 10. The Reliable – Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus [CO4] (NW86, Enola) 11. The Virginian - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus [NW86, All Freight, there is some indication that NW86 may have replaced CO4???] (no longer listed in 1949) 12. The Derby - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Indianapolis [IL2, All Freight,] (IL2, Louisville) 13. The Colonial - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Louisville [CO6] (no longer listed in 1949) 14. The Invincible - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Cincinnati [CO8] (CO8, Logansport to Richmond, IN) 15. Spark Plug - Live Stock-Perishable – Cincinnati to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities [LM4] (LM4, terminate at Pitcairn) 16. The Cincinnatus - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Seaboard Cities* [LM6, Enola] (no longer listed in 1949) 17. The Captivator - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Columbus [LM8, Perishable, Seaboard Cities] (no longer listed in 1949) 18. The Straits - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Detroit [DC2, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 19. The Forest City - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Cleveland [FC2, All Freight] (FC2) 20. The Eagle - - Perishable-Merchandise – Cleveland to Seaboard Cities* [CE2, All Freight, to Enola] (CE2, to Harimus Cove) 21. The Gas Wagon - Merchandise - Detroit to Seaboard Cities* [ED2, All Freight, to Enola] (ED2, to Enola) 22. The Greyhound – Live Stock – East St Louis to Seaboard Cities [PH10] (PH10, Pitcairn) 23. Uncle Sam - Perishable Freight - East St. Louis to Seaboard Cities* [VL2, to Enola] (VL2, Enola) 24. The Eclipse - Merchandise - East St. Louis to Seaboard Cities* [VL4, to Enola] (no longer listed in 1949) 25. The Trailblazer - Merchandise - East St. Louis to Pittsburg [VL6] (VL6, Pitcairn) 26. The Thoroughbred - Live Stock - Indianapolis to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities [PH8] (no longer listed in 1949) 27. The Bullet - Perishable Freight - Indianapolis to Seaboard Cities* [IN2, to Enola] (no longer listed in 1949) 28. The Cat Bird - Perishable-Merchandise – Norfolk to New York [D2, to Harimus Cove NY] (D2, Harimus Cove) 29. The Premier - Live Stock - Pittsburg to Seaboard Cities [WP10] (SW8, E. St. Louis to Greenville, NJ) 30. The Iron Master - Merchandise - Pittsburg to New York [PG12, to Greenville] (no longer listed in 1949) 31. The Champion - Perishable-Merchandise – Pittsburg to Wilkes-Barre [PG16, All Freight] (CSB8, Pitcairn to Hudson) 32. The Oriole - Perishable Freight – [from Southern States] Washington to New York [MD12, Potomac Yard to NY] (MD12, Potomac Yard to Harimus Cove) 33. The Remus - Perishable Freight – from Southern States, Washington to Boston [Not Listed in 1926] (no longer listed in 1949) 34. The Accelerator – Merchandise – Toledo to Pittsburg [WV4] (no longer listed in 1949) 35. The Rocket - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Cincinnati [LM1, All Freight, Columbus to Cincinnati] (CIN1, Enola to Cincinnati) 36. The Big Smoke – Merchandise – Columbus to Chicago [NW85, Other Than Perishable] (NW85) 37. Lightfoot - Perishable Freight - Columbus to Chicago [NW99] (NW99, Logansport) 38. The Valet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Louisville [LC21, All Freight, Columbus to Louisville] (no longer listed in 1949) 39. The Miami - Merchandise – Detroit – Cincinnati [DC3, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 40. The Purple Emperor - Perishable Freight - from Southern States - Washington to Buffalo [BF3, All Freight, Enola to Buffalo, from Potomac Yard] (no longer listed in 1949) 41. The North Star - Perishable Freight – Pittsburg to Buffalo [BF1, All Freight] (BF1, Scully Yard to Buffalo) 42. The White Moth - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Ft. Wayne [FW3, All Freight, Pittsburg to Ft Wayne] (no longer listed in 1949) 43. The Peerless - Merchandise – Pittsburg to Chicago [PF3, All Freight] ( PF3, Pitcairn to Crestline) 44. The Hummer - Merchandise - Pittsburg to St. Louis [PF5, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 45. The Standard - Merchandise - Pittsburg to Detroit [WV3, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 46. The Home Run - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to Chicago [TRS1, and Stock Cars] (no longer listed in 1949) 47. The Refiller - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to E. St. Louis [TRS3, and Stock Cars] (no longer listed in 1949) 48. The Dividend - Perishable-Merchandise - Wilkes-Barre to Pittsburg [PG13, All Freight] (PG13, Buttonwood to Altoona) 49. The Excelsior - Merchandise – Buffalo to Chicago [BEC1, All Freight] (BEC1, Crestline) 50. The Challenger - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Chicago [CO3] (CO3) 51. The Vamp – Merchandise - Cincinnati to Chicago [CO7, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 52. The Queen City - Merchandise – Cleveland to Cincinnati [FC1, All Freight] (FC1) 53. The Blue Goose - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to Buffalo [BF5, All Freight Enola to Buffalo] (BF5, Enola to Buffalo) 54. The Meteor - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to Cleveland [CE1, All Freight, Enola to Cleveland] (VC1, Enola to Cleveland) 55. The Arrow - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to Detroit [ED1, All Freight, Enola to Detroit] (no longer listed in 1949) 56. Star Union Line - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to Chicago [PF1, All Freight, Enola to Chicago] (no longer listed in 1949) 57. The Yankee - Perishable-Merchandise – New England to Chicago [NL1, All Freight, Enola to Chicago from New England] (no longer listed in 1949) 58. The Comet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to St. Louis [VL1, All Freight, Enola to Chicago] (VL7, Enola to E. St. Louis) 59. The Ace - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Pittsburg [PG11, All Freight, Harimus Cove to Pittsburg] (CG8, Chicago to Greenville, NJ) 60. The Renown - Perishable-Merchandise – Louisville to Chicago [CO5, All Freight] (CO5, Indianapolis to Chicago) End of original publication. Following are additional trains from the 1949 publication: 61. (Cock o' the Walk - DC8, Cincinnati to Detroit) 62. (The Cornucopia - BNY14, Buffalo to Philadelphia) 63. (The New Englander - CSB2, Altoona to Hudson) 64. (The New Yorker - NY2, Pitcairn to Harimus Cove) 65. (The Ranchman - VL8, East St Louis to Pitcairn) 66. (The Southwesterner - SW1, Enola to East St Louis) 67. [The Blue Streak - All Freight - Louisville to Chicago IN1, 1926 scratched out] I have the original PRR ?? Document, unfortunately it is undated. I believe it to be from the 1930s but I have not been able to confirm. Information in parenthesis ( ) was provided by Rich Orr and is from an AAR publication dated October 1949. The information in parenthesis includes the 1949 origin and destination points if different from original. Information in brackets [ ] was provided by Alan Buchan from PRR General Notice 234-A, "Scheduled Freight Train Service Through and Local" issued November 15, 1926. * Reference to arrival at New York, Philadelphia, and Baltimore. I am assuming that those trains listed as seaboard cities and a destination or point of origin as Enola means that the train terminated or originated at Enola and was divided into or was made up from trains headed for or arriving from New York, Philadelphia, and Baltimore. Can anyone verify this? Corrections and additional information welcomed. I will be adding the time schedule for the trains passing through the Middle Division from a 1935 Employees TT. Will send to those who request a copy. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:01:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains to be Modeled Jerry & folks, Mention of the liberty Ltd got me to thinking and some quick thumbing through the stuff within arms's reach. Seems the Liberty commenced operations as a separate (and all Pullman) train in Sep, 1925. It replaced the Washington section of the Broadway which had commenced in 1923. I think the Liberty ran on it's Chicago-washington route until 1957, when it was discontinued. For a while it ran as a Philley-Chicago train westbound(!) and quasi Chi-New York eastbound, but was essentially a few through cars in other trains by then. The primary Chicago-Washington service was provided by the General from 1957 on, with the Broadway never handling Washington cars at Harrisburg in this era. Far as I can tell, all these trains ran on the Northern Central via York. Amtrak did run a stub service via Columbia from Harrisburg, at least during the combined Broadway-"National Ltd" boondogle, to Washington, joining the corridor at Perryville, but when this ended I don't know. But at least modeling 1954 gives you an unadulterated Liberty Ltd to play with. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:30:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE973E.789D64E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ****Thanks to Hal, Rich and Al for the freight compilations. Hal, you = are correct in your thoughts that many trains ended up at Hbg / Enola / = Conway, etc., only to have their blocks handled again by other trains. Same as with passenger research that I discussed previously, the = Employee TT contains these through freight schedules, and the patterns = can be discerned. The freight guide further indicates which blocks = moved / connected to which trains, even including local service to the = customer. Even though Rich noted the lack of BF-3 in the 1949 "non-PRR" source, in = PRR material, this train shows as continously operating even into my PRR = Days, as we chased it up the P&E in the late1960's. That and the BNY-16, = which continued eastward through Hbg ( Jerry ) and on to NJ, where I = regularly handed it at work. Hal, I will get you some more info after I get through our C&A Tour Two = Research, and our Spring plantings ! Bill***=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE973E.789D64E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
****Thanks to Hal, Rich and Al for the freight compilations.  = Hal, you=20 are correct in your thoughts that many trains ended up at Hbg / Enola / = Conway,=20 etc., only to have their blocks handled again by other trains.
 
Same as with passenger research that I discussed previously, the = Employee=20 TT contains these through freight schedules, and the patterns can be=20 discerned.  The freight guide further indicates which blocks moved = /=20 connected to which trains, even including local service to the = customer.
 
Even though Rich noted the lack of BF-3 in the 1949 "non-PRR" = source, in=20 PRR material, this train shows as continously operating even into my PRR = Days,=20 as we chased it up the P&E in the late1960's. That and the BNY-16, = which=20 continued eastward through Hbg ( Jerry ) and on to NJ, where I = regularly=20 handed it at work.
 
Hal, I will get you some more info after I get through our C&A = Tour Two=20 Research, and our Spring plantings ! Bill*** 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE973E.789D64E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 5 May 99 21:27:04 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: Re: [PRR] Md.,Pa.,Del border Until 1776 Delaware and Pennsylvania were one. There were three counties in Pennsylvania and three in Delaware. The three in PA were Philadelphia, Bucks and Chester. In Delaware still has only three counties, New Castle, Kent and Sussex. These were known as the lower three lower counties of Pennsylvania. Due to the fact that the Quakers in the three Upper Counties could not get along with the people of the Lower three counties. Delaware was permitted to have their own legislature from 1704. The two colonies had the same Governor until 1776. The Mason Dixon Line goes East and West along the lower edge of PA and North and South along the western edge of DE. It then goes East and West along the lower edge of DE. It is so marked along the way. There are even road signs on the highways, crossing the lower boundrey of DE, informing motorists that you are crossing the Mason Dixon Line. The arc between PA and DE is drawn by a radius whose point is the steps of the old New Castle Court House in New Castle DE. To the best of my knowledge no changes were ever made to the line for any RR. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] 24 Hours at Harrisburg, P70 Schemes, and more Date: Wed, 5 May 99 20:18:16 -0400 From: Jerry I've completed a major addition to "24 Hours at Harrisburg", my chronology of train movements through Harrisburg on September 28, 1954. I've completed entry of the eastbound consists, by car type and name. The essay now includes all east-west and west-east passenger trains. If I can locate a Maryland Division "Makeup of Trains" book dated September 26, 1954, I can do the same for Washington/Baltimore to/from Erie/Buffalo/etc trains...something I really want to do. If I can locate a Philadelphia Terminal Division "Makeup of Trains" book dated September 26, 1954, I can do the same for Philadelphia to/from Harrisburg trains...of which there were only a few, mostly commuters. I did find, and added to my site, tables which include a very broad range of non-sleeper passenger car codes. Ever wonder what all those suffii (plural of suffix?) are for? Check it out! I've also discovered and added a table which explains all the P70 "scheme" notations I asked about earlier. It is related to internal arrangements and number of seats. You'll find that at "24 Hours at Harrisburg". Please visit http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ Let me know if you find any typos or errant HTML code. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:53:58 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Trains to be Modeled t 08:01 PM 5/5/99 EDT, you wrote: >Jerry & folks, >Mention of the liberty Ltd got me to thinking and some quick thumbing through >the stuff within arms's reach. Seems the Liberty commenced operations as a >separate (and all Pullman) train in Sep, 1925. It replaced the Washington >section of the Broadway which had commenced in 1923. I think the Liberty ran >on it's Chicago-washington route until 1957, when it was discontinued. For a >while it ran as a Philley-Chicago train westbound(!) and quasi Chi-New York >eastbound, but was essentially a few through cars in other trains by then. >The primary Chicago-Washington service was provided by the General from 1957 >on, with the Broadway never handling Washington cars at Harrisburg in this >era. Far as I can tell, all these trains ran on the Northern Central via >York. Amtrak did run a stub service via Columbia from Harrisburg, at least >during the combined Broadway-"National Ltd" boondogle, to Washington, joining >the corridor at Perryville, but when this ended I don't know. But at least >modeling 1954 gives you an unadulterated Liberty Ltd to play with. >Barry Peltier > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off >this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Hi.... Hmmmm i remember some of this info being in a past issue of the "Keystone" (Vol 28 No. 2 ?) the one with the info on Baltimore. The later Broadway-"National" limiteds were the infamous one car trains...pulled by a single E-unit. And they were one car even in pre Amtrak days,i had the chance to ride one but did'nt. I think before hurricane Agnes it was the last reminate of the old "Buffalo Day Express" but i might be wrong...will have to check my sources on it. I remember one sitting at Penn station in Baltimore just before hurricane Agnes. I have a old Model Railroader magazine with a article about modeling short trains....it shows the single (then PC-amtrak) E-unit and coach traveling along the Port road...(i think just north of the tunnel near the state line.) This was the later Amtrak version. Also for a very short time after amtrak started up (i don't remember the year or month...might have been the mid 70's). Amtrak ran a longer train with a GG-1 up front. I remember the train had at least 4 or 5 cars. as i remember a club or parlor car and three or four coaches. It ran the corridor from Washington to Perryville where it ran on the Port road up to Harrisburg. If i find anything else out...i'll pass it along. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] **Liberty Ltd...#58 & 59.... Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:11:31 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE9744.3AE97020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***Barry, was 1954 too late to have the boat-tail obs, # 112x = series..??? They were rebuilt, not sure of dates, books 'out of = reach'.... .Bill*** ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE9744.3AE97020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
***Barry, was 1954 too late to have the boat-tail = obs, # 112x=20 series..??? They were rebuilt, not sure of dates, books 'out of = reach'....=20 .Bill***
------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE9744.3AE97020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:53:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. In a message dated 5/5/99 10:35:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, prrsignals@adelphia.net writes: > Even though Rich noted the lack of BF-3 in the 1949 "non-PRR" source, in PRR > material, this train shows as continously operating even into my PRR Days, as > we chased it up the P&E in the late1960's. That and the BNY-16, which > continued eastward through Hbg ( Jerry ) and on to NJ, where I regularly > handed it at work. Please do not misconstrue the information I provided to mean that the train did not exit. I was only indicating, from an official AAR document, that the train no longer carried the nickname in 1949. The "gone in 49" meant the nickname was no longer used. Sorry for any confusion. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 05:09:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Delaware Wedge >From a booklet "How Pennsylvania Acquired Its Present Boundaries" by William A. Russ, Jr., copyright 1966, Pennsylvania Historical Association: "...The Circle, as drawn from its eastern end, was supposed to meet the western boundary of Delaware as and when that meridian was surveyed up the middle of the Delmarva Peninsula. The western boundary of Delaware was expected to make a junction with the southern limits of Pennsylvania, thereby creating the northeastern corner of Maryland. The three items (Circle, middle-point line up the Delmarva Peninsula, and the northeastern corner of Maryland) did not quite mesh. The result was a fantastic triangular area, which history knows as the Delaware Wedge. This tidbit of some 800 acres, "extending southwards for three and a fraction miles," was claimed by both Delaware and Pennsylvania until 1921 when the wedge became part of Delaware by concession from Pennsylvania." Each of Pennsylvania's borders has its own story and this neat little booklet covers them all. --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Thu, 6 May 99 09:28:26 -0400 From: Jerry Notable additions over the past 24 hours... HO brass Pennsy 2-10-2 Item #100250194 HC Book "I Remember Pennsy" by Don Wood Item #100548340 PRR Employee Timetable Trenton Div. 1923 Item #100208710 PRR ETT Phila. Terminal Div. 1942 Item #100205494 THE OFFICIAL GUIDE OF THE RAILWAYS -1944- Item #100426665 Pennsy Steam & Semaphores Railroad Book Item #100330289 The Official Guide of the Railways July 1939 Item #100221285 1956 Railway Guide Item #100198201 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Freight car photos needed! Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:22:26 -0400 Hi all, Does anyone have any PRR freight car photos that I can use on my web page? So far I have about 30 photos of various classes of PRR freight cars but more classes aren't represented than are! I'd really like to have a photo of each class! Unfortunately I'm a bit too young to have taken photos of PRR cars! For scanned photos, you can e-mail them to me at this address. If you don't have a scanner, I can arrange to get them scanned (I also have access to a slide scanner.) Thanks for your help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also thank you to everyone who has already sent me photos! Rob Schoenberg http://prr.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 04:44:36 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Pa/Md/De State Line Answer Looks like Fred Abendschein gets the brass ring. Since I've received some questions about what else these maps might show, I thought the URL's might be useful. Library of Congress, Railroad Map Collection http://memory.loc.gov/ammen/gmdhtm/rrhtm/rrhome.html Once there, do obvious things to select an index, select a map, zoom, pan, etc., etc. The maps are all 1900 or earlier. Some are good, some are rather ho-hum. Tech note: If you save an image to disk, it will be saved as something.pl. Be not alarmed, it's really a .gif image. Johns-Hopkins University, Applied Physics Laboratory, Color Landform Atlas of the United States http://fermi.jhuapl.edu/states/ If you go to fermi.jhuapl.edu, you won't be able to find a way to the maps. /states/ is crucial. The first screen offers an index of states. Selecting one of them gets a page of links to different maps, and links to other goodies related to that state. Caution: the 1895 maps are BIG, well over a megabyte apiece. Enjoy. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:57:47 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Oooops. Correction In an earlier post, I mis-typed the URL for the railroad map collection at the Library of Congress. The correct (I hope) URL is: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html I hate it when I'm the user in "User Error". === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MS60 vs. B60 Date: Thu, 6 May 99 16:02:35 -0400 From: Jerry Okay, so an MS60 is usually actually a B60, and maybe can be something else, such as an X42. Here's another twist: In the New York Division "Makeup of Passenger Trains" (consist) book, there are often notations such as: Mail Storage (MS60) Express (B60) Baggage (B60) Etc. My first question is this: Did the PRR keep a separate fleet of B60's for Mail Storage use with the lettering "U.S. Mail"? Or did all B60's have the lettering "U.S. Mail"? Step two, compounding the issue: I just purchased on eBay a book about the Railway Express Agency. It includes the complete text of their 1954 Contract with the Railroads. In it, it specifically EXCLUDES them from being able to handle mail...that was the railroad's job. That means "Railway Express Agency" and "U.S. Mail" were mutually exclusive. However, you see photos everywhere of a B60 baggage car lettered for both. Was it most likely that they were always lettered for both and used interchangably? Anyone know of a photo of a B60 that was "REA" only or "U.S. Mail" only? I'm sure some exist, just curious. Was the assignment of cars as simple as: Mail Storage (MS60) <---used for mail only, "U.S. Mail" lettering Express (B60) <------ used by REA only Baggage (B60) <-------PRR passenger baggage ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:54:31 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of SUVCWORR@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 10:53 PM To: prrsignals@adelphia.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. It had been stated> Please do not misconstrue the information I provided to mean that the train did not exit. I was only indicating, from an official AAR document, that the train no longer carried the nickname in 1949. The "gone in 49" meant the nickname was no longer used. --------------------------------------- For those PRR-list members not completely familiar with PRR arranged freight service, this is a good point. The list posted contains only the named trains. In addition to the 67 named trains there were over 200 other (non-named) symbol through freight trains (as listed in the 1926 freight train schedule), plus many symbol local freight trains, designated yard crews, switching district trains and transfer runs. And on top of all of this was the extra non-symbol trains that ran as required. For example in 1939 alone there were 340 non-symbol 80 car ore trains dispatched to the E&P from the docks at Erie. It is also difficult to talk about PRR freight service as a static event. Specific origin-destination trains and their schedules were dynamic, always undergoing modifications and change to accommodate changing traffic patterns, division boundary changes, etc. The PRR also designated all of their freight service as "Arranged Freight Service" and although specific departure, passing and arrival times were shown for each train these times did not convey timetable authority. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:45:18 -0400 They were PERMANENTLY coupled together in pairs. They were air throttle and had no nose mu connections, hence could not mu with other Baldwins. They were 5 stripe Brunswick green from birth. They were repainted 1 stripe green when downgraded to pusher service. They were never tuscan red. ---------- > From: VVA249@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES > Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:32 PM > > Heard a rumour last night that Mike's Train House (MTH) has "booked" > enough orders to do these in 2 Rail - Paint Scheme, as shown in Catalog, is 5 > Stripe DGLE. Price quoted was $700 per pair - 2 motors each. Can anyone > confirm? > Questions: > 1) Were they usually run in pairs? > 2) I know that early Baldwins not compatible with other Manufacturers MU > systems - but were they ever run with other Baldwins? > 3) Were they painted Tuscan when they were downgraded to pusher service? > > Dick Ross > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:32:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES Heard a rumour last night that Mike's Train House (MTH) has "booked" enough orders to do these in 2 Rail - Paint Scheme, as shown in Catalog, is 5 Stripe DGLE. Price quoted was $700 per pair - 2 motors each. Can anyone confirm? Questions: 1) Were they usually run in pairs? 2) I know that early Baldwins not compatible with other Manufacturers MU systems - but were they ever run with other Baldwins? 3) Were they painted Tuscan when they were downgraded to pusher service? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Al Buchan wrote: > It is also difficult to talk about PRR freight service as a static event. > Specific origin-destination trains and their schedules were dynamic, always > undergoing modifications and change to accommodate changing traffic > patterns, division boundary changes, etc. Indeed. This can be seen with several of the 1960 schedules available on my web site under http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ The keeper [PRR employe] of the original 3-ring binder was not absolutely perfect in replacing older schedules with newer ones, and thus, the book when it came into my possession had a very few train schedules from two and even 3 dates. It is instructive to see how "minor" some of these changes in train schedules were. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:54:53 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] a milestone for "The Limited" Hello all, A bit of happy news: by time you read this, the visitor counter on "The Limited" should be passing the 10,000 mark. "The Limited" was established in October, 1997, when I posted a single page that would soon evolve into the present index page. Since that time, site has been through four restructurings as it has grown by leaps and bounds. The page count has topped the 400 mark and there are something like 600 illustrations of various kinds. Truth is, with the addition of the Search Engine, the site has been growing so fast that I am not sure exactly what the count is. We are now into our 5th Consumer Opinion Survey (still room for your input!) and these surveys have done a lot to help define and shape the planning. To back up this development, some 30 books have been added to the company reference library (almost all of them OOP) and dozens of smaller items such as timetables, booklets, diagram sheets, etc. (not to mention a barrel of postcards!) have been bought as well- mostly through eBay. There have been about a dozen articles by Contributing Authors and at least 2-3 dozen more folks have sent in tickets, timetables, ads, copies of articles, etc. Nearly $1000 has been spent on software specifically for this project: you can see the improvement in the new maps and the Search Engine logos. That is a lot of progress for a mere 18 months! True, there are still a lot of gaps. "The Limited" is rapidly becomming the largest railroad technical and historical site on the internet and it will take years before it really starts to fill up. A lot of the early work has only partly been rebuilt and many of the existing Topics are only roughed in. Still (whenever I can spare the time from business BS and paperwork) I keep plugging away at it. So it will fill in steadily in the future. I would like to thank everyone who had a part in the early development of "The Limited": including: * Jerry, Tom V, Dr. Bruce and Stephen B (among others) over at PRR-Talk; * Mahlon from the Monon List; * Dave Allen from the Nickel Plate Society; * Ed, George and Ken from the Milwaukee List; And a host of others who have connected me with a book here, a Xerox there or sent me a correction - and have since vanished into the night. Enough of tooting my own horn. I really appreciate everyones readership, input and kind words that have helped keep this thing on track. Remember that "The Limited" is intended as a group effort. If you want to tell the story of your favorite road, your contribution - great or small - is welcome. Well- back to the drawing board. Until next, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:08:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 vs. B60 In a message dated 5/6/99 4:01:39 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << That means "Railway Express Agency" and "U.S. Mail" were mutually exclusive. However, you see photos everywhere of a B60 baggage car lettered for both. Was it most likely that they were always lettered for both and used interchangably? Anyone know of a photo of a B60 that was "REA" only or "U.S. Mail" only? I'm sure some exist, just curious. Was the assignment of cars as simple as: Mail Storage (MS60) <---used for mail only, "U.S. Mail" lettering Express (B60) <------ used by REA only Baggage (B60) <-------PRR passenger baggage >> I will jprobably regret this,because I continually find that, even after 45 years of collecting info, I learn something new every day. But here goes. I have never seen a B60 in the 30's to 50's era that didn't have Pennsylvania on the letterboard and "Railway Express Agency" on the lower panel. Later ones of course had simplified schemes. Some earlier ones had "American Railway Express". I have never seen a B60 with "U.S. Mail" lettering, alone or with the REA lettering. Now I will step back and have everyone point out a zillion exceptions to what I just said, but I have racked my memory and cannot come up with any in my collection of paper. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:47:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantagraph Appropos of my other post (MS60)wherein I mentioned I find something new every day (like the time in the last year when I discovered the EP22 with Mars light) about the Pennsy, I just noticed something else new. In photos of the E44, I notice that the Faively pantagraph seems to be aligned such that the knee is forward, no matter whether the unit is running short or long-end forward. Was this a rotatable device and was it deliberately done this way (seems logical)? Bob (lived in Philly for two years and never noticed) Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 23:17:32 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantagraph Bob, They carried two Faivley half-a-graphs, with the "elbows" pointing away from each other. Either could be raised. Steve Bartlett Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > ...... I just noticed something else new. > In photos of the E44, I notice that the Faively pantagraph seems to be > aligned such that the knee is forward, no matter whether the unit is running > short or long-end forward. Was this a rotatable device and was it > deliberately done this way (seems logical)? > > Bob (lived in Philly for two years and never noticed) Zoeller > Fox Point, WI > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] ***e44 pans.. Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:04:56 -0400 ***bob z; there are two fvly pans, back to back, on the roof. hinge to hinge, i should say... lines east bill** -----------------------------------------------------------------------