Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 00:06:30 -0400 From: mark franke Subject: [PRR] (no subject) un-subscribe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 11:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Named Trains- Freight List, Hello, everyone knows that the Pennsy had their Passenger Trains named, right? The Broadway, Red Arrow, Detroit Arrow, The Buffalo Day express are examples. Did you know the Pennsy named Feight Trains too? Below is a small list of named trains that a buddy of mine copied for me. These are dated for 1-23-28 Train AE2 "THE BULLDOG" Akron to Enola -Freight Train BF4 " THE BISON" Buffaloto Enola -Stock Train FW8 "MAN O'WAR" Chicago-Seaboard-stock Train PF8 "THE MASCOT" Chicago-Pitt- Merchand Train CE2 "THE EAGLE" Cleveland to Jersy Ciy- Perishables Train IN2 "THE BULLET" Indianapolis to Enola- Perishables Train MD6 "UNCLE REMUS" Potomac YD. to Grenville- Perishables Train MD12 "THE ORIOLE" Poomac YD. to NEW York- Perishables Train ED2 "THE GAS WAGON" Detroit to Enola- All Freight Train LM4 "THE SPARK PLUG" Cincy to Pitt-Perishables These are just a few of the 35 that is listed on this paper.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 16:22:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Named Trains- Freight I have the complete list (60) from A PRR publication and posted it sometime ago. If any one still needs a copy just let me know. Harold Modeling the Middle Division ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch -- HO Scale Date: Sun, 2 May 99 08:50:15 -0400 From: Jerry HO BRASS, PRR TOOL CAR, NO RESERVE Item #98625437 PRR POLING CAR, BRASS HO, NO RESERVE Item #98621396 ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:08:14 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] updates to "The Limited" Hello everyone, Just a brief note to say that I have just completed a major update to "The Limited". This included ironing the last bugs out of the Search Engine and some restructuring (the fourth major rebuild of the site in 2 years, it keeps growing so.) With the Search Engine on line, I can upload individual click-to illustrations without having the Topic pages on line, which removes the last major bottleneck. I plan to push ahead over the next several months uploading the backlog of illustrations. 8-} BTW: yeah, it's time for another Opinion Poll. This goes into more detail about decorating and packaging. I hope you will drop by and give your input: these Polls really do have an impact on planning and product features. Thank you all for visiting "The Limited"! All my best, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:14:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Named Freights, A mystery to Solve Help! I have an original PRR Document titled "The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Railroad Freight Service." I have shared this with numerous PRR- Talk members. Many have asked the date of the document. Unfortunately it is undated. The front cover has the front view of a steam locomotive inside a keystone and the headlight is the old style oil lantern. There is a drawing inside of the front of a steam locomotive coming toward the viewer and the rear of another train. Both locomotives have round number plates. The cabin car does not have train phone apparatus on the roof. I originally thought the document was from the 40s but now believe it to be older. If anyone could shed some light on this it would be greatly appreciated. Also, no train numbers are listed, lost the name, city of origin, destination, and type of freight carried. Would appreciate a list of train numbers if anyone has them available. I will add the numbers to the list and repost it on PRR Talk. Thanks Harold Modeling the Middle Division ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:22:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Iowa??? In a message dated 4/28/99 8:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: << -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Bej Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 4:53 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR in Iowa??? Mark wrote, Someone (who was it?) at the Lines West Fest was asserting that the PRR reached into Iowa. What gives? -------------------------------- It was Rick Tipton reading from an ancient passenger timetable that showed PRR service into Burlington, IA and some other corn belt burg??? It was late at night but we were all still awake. I think it was 15 or 30 minutes before I kicked you guys out of my room. Al >> Yes, and you saw this yourself in the 1905 Travel Agents Atlas, which I had brought to Xenia. At that time, the Pennsy/Panhandle? had not spun off the TP&W, and service was shown to Keokuk, IA, with a branch to Burlington IA. In my mind, that's an order of magnitude wierder than meditating on the PRR with 3 miles of line in Kentucky. Rick Tipton Drawing all sorts of Lines West stuff from the Jack Fravert collection P.S. The same service is shown on the 1900 Pennsylvania Lines timetable on page 28. It's a PCC&StL Ry page, with Toledo, Peoria, & Western sublettering. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:52:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Named Freights, A mystery to Solve Hal: I have added the train numbers which I have to your list. These are from an AAR publication dated Oct. 1949 and titled "Names and Nicknames of Freight Trains" I have also included the 1949 origin and termination points if different. Also added 6 trains which were not on your list. Rich Orr The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Freight Service 01. The Bulldog – Merchandise – Akron to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 02. Flying Cloud – Merchandise – Buffalo to Pittsburg Scully yard BF2 03. The Bison – Live Stock-Perishable – Buffalo to Seaboard Cities Enola BF4 04. The Crackerjack – Merchandise - Buffalo to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 05. Man O'War – Live Stock – Chicago to Seaboard Cities Harimus Cove, NJ FW8 06. The Packer – Perishable Freight - Chicago to Seaboard Cities Enola CMB 07. The Mercury – Merchandise - Chicago to Seaboard Cities Harimus Cove WS4 08. The Salesman – Merchandise – Chicago to Buffalo Crestline to Demmler BEC2 09. The Mascot – Merchandise – Chicago to Pittsburg gone in 49 10. The Reliable – Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus Enola NW86 11. The Virginian - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus gone in 49 12. The Derby - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Indianapolis Louisville, KY IL2 13. The Colonial - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Louisville gone in 49 14. The Invincible - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Cincinnati Logansport to Richmond, IN CO8 15. Spark Plug - Live Stock-Perishable – Cincinnati to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities Terminate at Pitcairn LM4 16. The Cincinnatus - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 17. The Captivator - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Columbus gone in 49 18. The Straits - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Detroit gone in 49 19. The Forest City - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Cleveland FC2 20. The Eagle - - Perishable-Merchandise – Cleveland to Seaboard Cities Harimus Cove CE2 21. The Gas Wagon - Merchandise - Detroit to Seaboard Cities Enola ED2 22. The Greyhound – Live Stock – E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities Pitcairn PH10 23. Uncle Sam - Perishable Freight - E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities Enola VL2 24. The Eclipse - Merchandise - E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 25. The Trailblazer - Merchandise - E. St. Louis to Pittsburg Pitcairn VL6 26. The Thoroughbred - Live Stock - Indianapolis to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities gone in 49 27. The Bullet - Perishable Freight - Indianapolis to Seaboard Cities gone in 49 28. The Cat Bird - Perishable-Merchandise – Norfolk to New York Harimus Cove D2 29. The Premier - Live Stock - Pittsburg to Seaboard Cities East St. Louis to Greenville NJ SW8 30. The Iron Master - Merchandise - Pittsburg to New York gone in 49 31. The Champion - Perishable-Merchandise – Pittsburg to Wilkes-Barre Pitcairn to Hudson CSB8 32. The Oriole - Perishable Freight – (from Southern States) Washington to New York Potomac Yd. to Harimus Cove MD12 33. The Remus - Perishable Freight – (from Southern States) Washington to Boston gone in 49 34. The Accelerator – Merchandise – Toledo to Pittsburg gone in 49 35. The Rocket - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities Enola to Cincinnati CIN1 36. The Big Smoke – Merchandise – Columbus to Chicago NW85 37. Lightfoot - Perishable Freight - Columbus to Chicago LOGANSPORT NW99 38. The Valet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Louisville GONE IN 49 39. The Miami - Merchandise – Detroit – Cincinnati GONE IN 49 40. The Purple Emperor - Perishable Freight - (from Southern States) Washington to Buffalo GONE IN 49 41. The North Star - Perishable Freight – Pittsburg SCULLY YD. to Buffalo BF1 42. The White Moth - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Ft. Wayne GONE IN 49 43. The Peerless - Merchandise – Pittsburg to Chicago PITCAIRN TO CRESTLINE PF3 44. The Hummer - Merchandise - Pittsburg to St. Louis GONE IN 49 45. The Standard - Merchandise - Pittsburg to Detroit GONE IN 49 46. The Home Run - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to Chicago GONE IN 49 47. The Refiller - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to E. St. Louis GONE IN 49 48. The Dividend - Perishable-Merchandise - Wilkes-Barre to Pittsburg BUTTONWOOD TO ALTOONA PG13 49. The Excelsior - Merchandise – Buffalo to Chicago CRESTLINE BEC1 50. The Challenger - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Chicago CO3 51. The Vamp – Merchandise - Cincinnati to Chicago GONE IN 49 52. The Queen City - Merchandise – Cleveland to Cincinnati FC1 53. The Blue Goose - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities ENOLA to Buffalo BF5 54. The Meteor - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities ENOLA to Cleveland VC1 55. The Arrow - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Detroit GONE IN 49 56. Star Union Line - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Chicago GONE IN 49 57. The Yankee - Perishable-Merchandise – New England to Chicago GONE IN 49 58. The Comet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to St. Louis ENOLA TO EAST ST. LOUIS VL7 59. The Ace - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Pittsburg CHICAGO TO GREENVILLE NJ CG8 60. The Renown - Perishable-Merchandise – Louisville INDIANOPOLIS to Chicago CO5 61. Cock o; the Walk Cincinnati to Detroit DC8 62. The Cornucopia Buffalo to Philadelphia BNY 14 63. The New Englander Altoona to Hudson CSB2 64. The New Yorker Pitcairn to Harimus Cove NY2 65. The Ranchman East St. Louis to Pitcairn VL8 66. The Southwesterner Enola to East St. Louis SW1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 21:45:40 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal and ore on the P&E Bill Volkmer wrote: > > 1- Yes, coal came up over the E&P, was dumped at Erie. Same hoppers were > loaded with ore and taken down to Mt. Carmel to the LV connection. > > ... > 3- About the time that the I-1s were canned, (1957) the ore fields in > Minnesota stopped shipping to Erie and the Bethlehem Steel Co. started > importing ore from Liberia. So diesels were never used. > Bill, I thought that freight sharks were used on the ore drags from Erie. No? -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 00:40:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] O Scale Needs Assessment Survey Results For the person looking for the MP-54's in "O" scale - the pre motorized version is announced by Sunse on their wb page 3rd Rail Division of Sunset Models www.3rdrail.com they are due 'late 99" and are listed at $ 750. for a three car set - with a baggage - extra coaches @ $250 each & no mention of a pantograph version Surprised that Lionel MTH or K-line haven't done this in a scale version - Sunset says it will negotiate 0-42 Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Boy Does eBay Suck Today! Date: Mon, 3 May 99 12:05:45 -0400 From: Jerry In their strive to make things better, eBay has made things suck! The HO Models remain where they were, but they took the Railroadiana and split it into two new categories: General uses the old category number while Paper uses 1445. The combined listing (like it was before) is currently available at category 1444. However, you can't open any items for viewing, which means you can't bid. Also, "My eBay" isn't working today, so I can't get a consolidated view of what's going on in my eBayLife! Further, you can't search for items you are buying or selling, so you know not what is going on via that route either. Guess those of us who are addicted are really hurting today! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:58:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29 Express Boxcars Hi Folks, I'm new to your group and am enjoying your listings. I have a question: did the X29 boxcars that were used in express service have 33" or 36" wheels? Thanks, Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:36:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Boy Does eBay Suck Today! Jerry, Can' Bid, that's the least of my worries. I scored big time at and auction Saturday and can't post any of the items. It's almost all Lionel 027 or tinplate, PRR, so its all for sale. This is costing me money. E-Bay's been off line since 0300 EDT. Tom V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBay Date: Mon, 3 May 99 13:55:09 -0400 From: Jerry Finally got through to eBay...seems to be back up. Their message board shows the bloody trail of goings-on over the past 24 hours. Finally, it's someone else with system problems! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:03:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] eBay Apparently their troubles started Friday with a crash and about two hours off line I've got a bunch of stuff to post. Some 40+ Extra 2200 South's I'm going to list them singly with a description of contents. I'll be taking PICS of the Lionel and Marx (I think) Tinplate tonight. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:50:13 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] P58 and P"70" Saw some interesting things on a visit to the local brass emporium. There is a shortened version of the standard early P70 called the P58 (HO model by ??). Does anyone know where or how the PRR used these? Also, there is a lengthened version of the MP54 (the unpowered commuter coach, not the multiple unit electric) called the P70, but it clearly is not the P70 we all know. The windows are grouped in threes, their are owl-eye portholes in the ends, and the clerestory is the flattened type, with an estimated overall height of 13'-0", a full foot shorter than the normal P70. Incidentally there is a photo of an actual one of these cars in Kratvilles's *Steam Steel & Limiteds* in LIRR paint, with PARLOR CAR lettered beneath the windows, and number 826 near the ends. It rides on short trucks like the early P70's, and has six groups of triple windows. What was the origin of this car? PRR or LIRR? Was it really called P70? How many were built? At least the function is clear, as the LIRR ran many parlors as commuter clubs and on their fancier trains out to the East End. -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:16:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O/ Pennsy Joint Track-Columbus Folks, Thanks for the info so far. Sorry to be so slow at getting out an acknowledgment of your assistance, but I've been pretty tied up the last week or so. Soon's as I can tie up a few loose ends (and get some bills in the mail) I'll make a more civil response to all you kindly folks. I was fortunate to have another B&O fan from the Willard, Ohio area send me a copy of a locally published book naned "Historical Account of B&O Lines 1830-1989" which covers the lines from Sandusky to Newark and the Shawnee Branch, and which offers some nice photo coverage of the area. Hopefully, between printed sources, tapes and whatever maps and oral history i can beg , borrow or rent, a person may be able to get into the spirit of that area. Aside from the physical plant, the actual train operations in the area from Newark to zanesville are of great interest. Guess I better get my sase out to Trains & Stuff for some B&O freight wokings books. Thanks again, and I'll get back with ya's asap. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] P58 and P"70" Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:56:46 -0400 Bob Livingston wrote: > Also, there is a lengthened version of the MP54 (the unpowered commuter > coach, not the multiple unit electric) called the P70, but it clearly is > not the P70 we all know. The windows are grouped in threes, their are > owl-eye portholes in the ends, and the clerestory is the flattened type, > with an estimated overall height of 13'-0", a full foot shorter than the > normal P70. Incidentally there is a photo of an actual one of these > cars in Kratvilles's *Steam Steel & Limiteds* in LIRR paint, with PARLOR > CAR lettered beneath the windows, and number 826 near the ends. It > rides on short trucks like the early P70's, and has six groups of triple > windows. > What was the origin of this car? PRR or LIRR? Was it really called > P70? How many were built? At least the function is clear, as the LIRR > ran many parlors as commuter clubs and on their fancier trains out to > the East End. Cars were ordered by the Pennsy for the LIRR. The PRR took control of the LIRR in 1900. The LIRR was transformed from an independent to a major division of the PRR in fairly short order. While it maintained some of its country ways, it became bigtime nearly overnight. The parlor cars in the 800 series was the Pennsy's way of moving LIRR parlor car service from wooden cars to steel very rapidly. The Pennsy put its classification system in at the LIRR very early on for both coaches and motive power. There is some confusion on nomenclature here since the LIRR operated both traditional parlor car service and commuter club service, the later being a railroad-promoted and run service that catered to the elite on the regular steam commuter runs. The traditional "parlors" were largely built as class PP-70 and I suspect the classification was made that way to make sure no one in the PRR organization confused them with the P-70 coach. In later years, when these cars were rebuilt into coaches, they received P-70a and b classifications. The PP-70's (i.e. the parlors) were numbered 809-833 and were built in the 1911-1917 period by AC&F. 808-818 (1911) 819-826 (1913) 827-828 (1916) 830-833 (1917) (the missing 829 was assigned to an much older car that survived until 1924) 810 and 821 ran in service until the fall of 1971 as coaches! I rode this class many times and am fortunate enough to have one of the original wicker parlor car chairs from one of this class (wish I knew the car!) The railroad began converting these cars into coaches in 1925-26 when the Pullman Company assumed operation of the parlor car service on the LIRR (coincident with the construction of a Pullman yard in Montauk to maintain Pullman's own equipment). Three of the cars were converted to private club car service. One car, #815, was converted during the 20's (believed to be 1925) to #2000 for use as the LIRR's business car (usually assigned to New York Zone VP George LeBoutillier). This car later became the Jamaica and was one of the hallmarks of LIRR parlor car service to The Hamptons and Montauk in the 60's (there are pictures of it in the Keystone). The Jamaica has been preserved. I spent many happy hours on the observation deck of that car. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:48:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Express Boxcars In a message JOELPRR@aol.com writes: << Hi Folks, I'm new to your group and am enjoying your listings. I have a question: did the X29 boxcars that were used in express service have 33" or 36" wheels? Thanks, Joel >> Joel, I have cross posted this to a couple of other list as I am sure your question has crossed the minds of other Pennsy modeler. The answer is the Pennsy X-29's used in express service had 33 inch wheels. Greg Martin Cofounder MEMRA-NEMRA Ask me about RPM --- it's alive! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] **Camden & Amboy South end Canal, Tower and Trestle Tour in Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:28:26 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BE95BC.A501C720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***Since our last Lines East outing ( MG / Trenton and environs south to = BOrdentown ) was so informative and entertaining, we cannot wait to = 'mount up' for another tour !!! BO to CB on the C&A ( Heart of the PRR ) = is being planned for a June departure, between the 11th and 25th. This was Real, Factual, Proven and Touchable History of the PRR !!! Any = other interested parties are welcome to join us. Thanks to our resident = signal experts and historians, maps, diagrams, photos, interlocking = charts of 'then and now', etc., will be available for this tour packet, = also. The 1929 diagram of BO interlocking was fully confirmed by = physical evidence, which exactly matched the photos from back then !=20 On our last tour ( despite what TVPedro said about 'sliver' not being a = railroad term ), we actually found a few ! Our group's MofW expert is = anal-yzing them now. We even experienced a 'close encounter' of the = Conrail kind, luckily NOT on the BO to BD trestle. So bring the DEET and the leg-straps and come on out for a PRR day along = the Delaware ! Bill P.S.: Jerry, might you select a different verb for expressing your = displeasure with eBay ??? That was not very civil of you....***=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BE95BC.A501C720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
***Since our last Lines East outing ( MG / Trenton and environs = south to=20 BOrdentown ) was so informative and entertaining, we cannot wait to = 'mount up'=20 for another tour !!! BO to CB on the C&A ( Heart of the PRR ) is = being=20 planned for a June departure, between the 11th and 25th.
 
This was Real, Factual, Proven and Touchable History of the = PRR !!!=20 Any other interested parties are welcome to join us. Thanks to our = resident=20 signal experts and historians, maps, diagrams, photos, interlocking = charts of=20 'then and now', etc., will be available for this tour packet, also. The = 1929=20 diagram of BO interlocking was fully confirmed by physical evidence, = which=20 exactly matched the photos from back then !
 
On our last tour ( despite what TVPedro said about 'sliver' not = being a=20 railroad term ), we actually found a few !  Our group's MofW expert = is=20 anal-yzing them now. We even experienced a 'close encounter' of the = Conrail=20 kind, luckily NOT on the BO to BD trestle.
 
So bring the DEET and the leg-straps and come on out for a PRR day = along=20 the Delaware !  Bill
 
P.S.: Jerry, might you select a different verb for expressing your=20 displeasure with eBay ??? That was not very civil of=20 you....*** 
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BE95BC.A501C720-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Tue, 4 May 99 08:19:04 -0400 From: Jerry Rivarossi HW PRR Work Train Diner, NEW Item #99463011 SPECTRUM PRR PRE-WAR 6 CAR PASSENGER SET Item #99389502 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question I've been scouring the Net looking for maps of the PRR lines on southeastern Pa and the nearby parts of Maryland and Delaware. That led me to the railroad map collection at the Library of Congress site. The 1896 RR Map of Penna there shows something odd. As I understand it, when Mason and Dixon were commissioned to survey the southern boundary of Penna, they were instructed to strike an arc centered on the courthouse at New Castle, Del., to give that town some "breathing room". On the map in question that arc continues until it intersects the eastern boundary of Maryland. That is, it shows a little spur of Pennsylvania sticking down between Maryland and Delaware. Looking at the 1895 atlas pages on a server at Johns-Hopkins, the Penna map shows no such thing, but the map of Maryland/Delaware (they're on one page) does show it. So, any of you guys know if there was some border dispute, or turn of the century revision of the state line or what? Maybe it's just a couple of draftmen with screwy ideas. But then, the 1896 map was issued by the Secretary of Internal Affairs and you'd think he would know where the state line was. To get back to railroads, the 1896 map says the Baltimore-Philadelphia line of the B&O passed through tip of that spur. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:33:38 -0400 (EDT) > On the map in question that arc continues until it > intersects the eastern boundary of Maryland. That is, > it shows a little spur of Pennsylvania sticking down > between Maryland and Delaware. Interesting. The current border between Delaware and Pa. is, for almost all of its distance, circular. The only such border in the U.S. [standard Jeopardy question]. 12 miles from New Castle. But then there is a wee smidgeon of a straight line before Maryland proper starts. > So, any of you guys know if there was some border > dispute, or turn of the century revision of the state > line or what? Maybe it's just a couple of draftmen > with screwy ideas. But then, the 1896 map was issued > by the Secretary of Internal Affairs and you'd think > he would know where the state line was. I was _just_ reading somewhere, recently, within the past couple of weeks, that some of these borders were not finally settled until the 19th century. It may be in my copy of the _Atlas of Pennsylvania_. Bob, if you call me MWF in the evening, I could look it up. > To get back to railroads, the 1896 map says the > Baltimore-Philadelphia line of the B&O passed through > tip of that spur. Eh? I've been to the "tri-state area". There's not much there. Mainly a state park on the Pa. side of the border, accessed from a little road within Delaware! I also always wondered where the Mason-Dixon line zeroth-mile marker stone is, whether there or elsewhere. At any rate, the B&O is much closer to town (Wilmington). The only thing slightly "nearby" is the RDG branch north to Coatesville, but this thing passes several miles east of the tri-state junction. And you thought YOU had property tax problems! Imagine the PRR (or PB&W, or PW&B, or ...) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] New email address Friends, Please take note of my new email address: rla0220@enter.net This is my last web tv message. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:18:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] "O" scale X-29 For those who requested an X-29 in the recent survey, Ron Sebastian of Des Plaines Hobbies advises me that there will be a limited re-run of their cast resin kits to fill advance orders. They are trying to have the kits made by the end of June, for delivery at the "O" Scale National - cost is $60.00 each, plus shipping. Orders are still being accepted. You may E-mail Ron at: dphobbies@earthlink.net or check their web site: www.desplaineshobbies.com Des Plaines Hobbies Welcomes You! Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:08:46 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Md.,Pa.,Del border Hi All... According to old World Book maps and articles..... Mason and Dixon laid out their Mason-Dixon line between 1763 and 1767. Surveys were also done in 1849 and 1900. Looking at present day maps of the northwest corner of Deleware you will see where the northern Md.-Pa. line extends to form the Pa.-Del.line until it meets the 12 mile arc. (Just west of present day Newark,Del.) If the 12 mile arc line at one time was the boundry between Pa. and Del. and it was south of the latitude of the Md.-Pa. part of the line its possible it could have been changed during the 1900 survey. 1849 and 1900 surveys only found minor mistakes in the original Mason-Dixon line. Its possible that one of these minor mistakes was that the line was to extend into Deleware and had'nt been done or markers to prove this were lost and the mistake was'nt noticed until the later surveys. The line was resurveyed over the years, for one as people had taken the mile markers that Mason and Dixon had put in place during the original survey and border disputes happened from time to time for this reason. I don't know what taxes were for railroad property then....but it is also possible that the B & O (and maybe PRR) supported the state line change. Remember that the B & O had built this main line because it had lost the P,W & B to the PRR. Its also possible that the state line was changed because of the building of this line so the B & O (if the line was a separate corporate entity at the time of charter for the line) so the B & O did'nt have to incorporate another charter for the line in the state of Pennsylvania. Further its also a possibility that the state of Deleware supported it. Besides gaining land ,Deleware might have used the change as a incentive to have the B & O build its line through Deleware. All of this is speculation at this point until someone can come up with a concrete and proven reason for the change. But its something to think about. This would'nt be the first time a state,city or county line was changed for a railroad if thats the case. Remember land was granted out west for railroads and settlers near the railroads. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question From: Michael E Allen Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 01:48:59 EDT Marc et alia; After some quick work with a straight edge, square, and protractor on a Rand McNally road atlas [hence there is some error in the numbers, probably not more than a few hundred yards] and with the understanding that I have no legal description of the boundaries easily available here, Professor Allen postulates: Given that: 1. The arc defining the DE/PA border has a radius of slightly less than 12 miles [11.79]; 2. The east/west portion of the DE/PA border is slightly over 1 mile in length. 3. The tri-state corner is +/-12 . 5 miles from my plotted center point of the arc; 4. The point along the DE/MD border which is due [map] west of my plotted center point of the arc is equidistant from such center point as the points on the arc; 5. The remainder of DE/MD border is a line tangent to the arc if the arc is continued to a point slightly south of the east-west line described in 3.; >From the above , coupled with Dr. Bej's field observations we may infer any or all of the following:. A. Messieurs Mason and Dixon had some difficulty in throwing the arc; B. The size of the arc they were to survey was determined by a government official [read bureaucrat] who failed to grasp the practicality of defining its radius as the distance from the courthouse to the surveyed north east corner of Maryland and insisted on an arbitrary [and incorrect] definition based on approximate distance. [Note it is entirely possible that he suffered from trixadecaphobia and would rather screw up the state lines than have a 13 nile radius arc.]; or, C. The person[s] who actually wrote the legal descriptions of the boundaries did not proofread their descriptions against the surveyor's notes. In other words, somebody goofed. From the slight easterly change of direction of th DE/PA border at Rte 2 it appears that the correction was made by dividing the spur between Delaware and Maryland, rather than fixing the arc! If anybody else wants to really research this one I'd like to know the answer. And for extra credit... What about the land border between Delaware and New Jersey? Obligatory PRR-related content: 1. I discovered the land border during a trip exploring the Salem and Penns Grove Branches when we threw in some bird watching. 2. The earliest PRR corporate predessor of which I am aware was the New Castle and Frenchtown Turnpike Company of the 1620s. MEA On Tue, 4 May 1999 15:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Mark Bej writes: >> On the map in question that arc continues until it >> intersects the eastern boundary of Maryland. That is, >> it shows a little spur of Pennsylvania sticking down >> between Maryland and Delaware. > >Interesting. > >The current border between Delaware and Pa. is, for almost >all of its distance, circular. The only such border in >the U.S. [standard Jeopardy question]. 12 miles from >New Castle. But then there is a wee smidgeon of a >straight line before Maryland proper starts. > >> So, any of you guys know if there was some border >> dispute, or turn of the century revision of the state >> line or what? Maybe it's just a couple of draftmen >> with screwy ideas. But then, the 1896 map was issued >> by the Secretary of Internal Affairs and you'd think >> he would know where the state line was. > >I was _just_ reading somewhere, recently, within the >past couple of weeks, that some of these borders were not >finally settled until the 19th century. It may be in my >copy of the _Atlas of Pennsylvania_. Bob, if you call me >MWF in the evening, I could look it up. > >> To get back to railroads, the 1896 map says the >> Baltimore-Philadelphia line of the B&O passed through >> tip of that spur. > >Eh? > >I've been to the "tri-state area". There's not much there. >Mainly a state park on the Pa. side of the border, accessed >from a little road within Delaware! I also always wondered >where the Mason-Dixon line zeroth-mile marker stone is, whether >there or elsewhere. > >At any rate, the B&O is much closer to town (Wilmington). >The only thing slightly "nearby" is the RDG branch north >to Coatesville, but this thing passes several miles east >of the tri-state junction. > >And you thought YOU had property tax problems! Imagine the PRR >(or PB&W, or PW&B, or ...) > >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off >this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] **CR OCS... Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 03:10:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE96A4.CDF76CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***The CR OCS is out running, went up the NYSW Monday, and this might be = its final tour as CR, if any are interested. Bill*** ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE96A4.CDF76CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
***The CR OCS is out running, went up the NYSW = Monday, and=20 this might be its final tour as CR, if any are interested.=20 Bill***
------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE96A4.CDF76CA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: OCS This Week Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:01:48 -0400 > OCS-301 > SELKIRK TO TOLEDO OH > TUESDAY MAY 4, 1999 DAY >SELKIRK OR 0530 ET 1 >DEWITT PS 0800 ET 1 >BUFFALO-FRONTIER AR 1030 ET 1 >BUFFALO-FRONTIER LV 1045 ET 1 >CP-97 - PA PS 1230 ET 1 >COLLINWOOD *AR 1345 ET 1 >COLLINWOOD LV 1415 ET 1 >CP-9 - OH PS 1430 ET 1 >TOLEDO-AIRLINE TE 1645 ET 1 > > > OCS-501 > *** DIVISION GENERAL MANAGERS **** > ***** TOLEDO TO INDIANAPOLIS ***** > WEDNESDAY MAY 5, 1998 DAY > TOLEDO-AIRLINE OR 0700 ET 1 > ELKHART *AR 0815 CT 1 > ELKHART LV 0915 CT 1 > CP-3 - IN PS 0945 CT 1 > ANDERSON PS 1300 CT 1 > INDIANAPOLIS, IN TE 1740 CT 1 > > OCS-601 >*** DIVISION GENERAL MANAGERS **** >***** AMTRAK DEPOT TO CONWAY ***** >THURSDAY MAY 6 1999 DAY >INDIANAPOLIS, IN OR 0800 CT 1 >CRESTLINE *AR 1215 ET 1 >CRESTLINE LV 1230 ET 1 >ALLIANCE PS 1445 ET 1 >CONWAY TE 1615 ET 1 > > OCS-401 > CONWAY TO ALTOONA >FRIDAY MAY 7 1999 DAY >CONWAY OR 0800 ET 1 >ALTOONA TE 1115 ET 1 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 07:53:31 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question >And for extra credit... >What about the land border between Delaware and New Jersey? I believe that Deleware owns up to the low tide mark on the Jersey Shore...This leads to some interesting problemns for New Jersey as new piers etc must be approved by the proper Deleware authorities. Imagine if you will, a competing New Jersey firm seeking to build a pier for Deleware River access...think De would allow that? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: History to Ride the Rails from Philadelphia to Scranton Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:22:05 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: AOLNews@aol.com [mailto:AOLNews@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 6:28 PM To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: History to Ride the Rails from Philadelphia to Scranton History to Ride the Rails from Philadelphia to Scranton SCRANTON, Pa., May 4 /PRNewswire/ -- History and elegance will take center stage upon the rails, as the Buy-Miles Purchasing Group will conduct an excursion of fully restored private business coaches from Philadelphia to the Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton. The May 7th trip will originate from the 30th Street Station in Philadelphia at 7:00 A.M. and arrive in Scranton at approximately 7:00 P.M. The Buy-Miles Purchasing Group is an organization of vintage railroad business car collectors that will parade as many as twelve fully restored business coaches throughout Eastern Pennsylvania and into Steamtown. This will be the first time ever that so many coaches of this nature have entered the confines of Steamtown. Included in the excursion on Friday will be the Pennsylvania Railroad 120. The PRR 120 was the Presidents car of the Pennsylvania Railroad and was the same car that carried the body of Robert Kennedy after his assassination. Among the events planned while in Scranton, is a special private trip to Analomink on Saturday morning and added interpretive programs that will showcase the remaining coaches that will be exhibited at Steamtown throughout the day. Included in the display at the park will be the Lehigh Valley 353. Originally purchased in 1916 by the Lehigh Valley Railroad, the all-steel, mahogany interior 353 has been fully restored to its original charm and majesty. The 353 is today's equivalent of a corporate business jet. Among the dignitaries to ride the 353 include Richard Nixon and General Douglas MacArthur. Rail fans and historians alike are encouraged to come out and view the excursion as it passes through the Keystone State. This moving depiction of yesteryear has not been duplicated since rail travel was the transportation norm instead of the exception. After the 7:00 a.m. departure, the excursion will reach the North Reading Yard at 9:25 (mile 65.9), and Port Clinton at 10:00 (mile 82.5). After a 10:45 departure from Port Clinton, they will arrive in Packerton at 1:10 p.m. (mile 125.2). A special photo run-by is scheduled at Barndoor as the excursion leaves the M & H Junction at 2:25 (mile 134.5). As the cars roar towards Steamtown, they will make a stop in Pittston at 4:30 (mile 181.8). The group will depart Pittston at 5:00 and arrive at Steamtown at approximately 6:30-6:45. CONTACT: J.R. Rupp, 800-22-WELCOME, or Ralph Coury 570-340-5185, both of the PA Northeast Visitor Bureau. SOURCE PA Northeast Visitor Bureau CO: PA Northeast Visitor Bureau ST: Pennsylvania IN: LEI SU: 05/04/99 18:27 EDT http://www.prnewswire.com To edit your profile, go to keyword NewsProfiles . For all of today's news, go to keyword News. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pa/MD/Del state line question Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:26:10 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 8:54 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [prr] Pa/Md/Del state line question >And for extra credit... >What about the land border between Delaware and New Jersey? I believe that Deleware owns up to the low tide mark on the Jersey Shore...This leads to some interesting problemns for New Jersey as new piers etc must be approved by the proper Deleware authorities. Imagine if you will, a competing New Jersey firm seeking to build a pier for Deleware River access...think De would allow that? ------------------------------ This is correct, it has also posed some law enforcement problems, i.e. committing crimes on the Jersey side between the high and low water lines which is really Delaware. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Wed, 5 May 99 09:18:01 -0400 From: Jerry Proto 2000 PRR SW9/1200 New No Reserve 5 Days Item #99913653 <---------road #8521 SUNSET BRASS PRR N5C CABOOSE W / ANT. NR Item #99896413 BACHMANN PRR HEAVYWEIGHT PASSENGER 3 CAR SET Item #99746416 BACHMANN PRR HEAVYWEIGHT PASSENGER 3 CAR SET Item #99745722 P.R.R. CAB SIGNAL COVER Item #100049908 <-----supposedly from a K-4s ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Trains to be Modeled Date: Wed, 5 May 99 11:27:10 -0400 From: Jerry For those who are interested, I have updated the web site for my planned layout. It now includes the list of trains to be modeled. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ The list includes passenger and through freights, 28 in all. The freights are based on the April 1954 timetable and will be updated to the September 1954 timetable once I find one. This will see the addition of TrucTrain service. Also yet to be added are local freights and interchange traffic with the Reading Company. Once I complete the consist data on the "24 Hours at Harrisburg" page (hopefully tonight) I will create sub-pages from the above URL that will list each car in each consist, indicating if I have built it yet, and whose car/sides I used. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 Date: Wed, 5 May 99 13:41:22 -0400 From: Jerry Anyone hear of any future P1K locomotive projects? LL has been mum on future P2K announcements given the lateness of their current announcements. Guess the E6 is now shipping, but the 2nd run of GP7's is now a month overdue. The GP30's are still due this summer. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars Revisited Date: Wed, 5 May 99 15:54:17 -0400 From: Jerry Was just delving through the "PRR-Talk" archives trying to locate a post about the "Makeup of Trains" book's reference to a "MS60" (Mail Storage) in a consist. At the time (last December) most listers agreed that this was just a B60 assigned to mail storage duty. However, one response said... BTW, I have always assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the passenger car consist book reference to an "MS60 (X29)" referred to the X42 mail storage car. Or were they just indicating either a B60 or X29 for mail storage? This wasn't a statement that an MS60 could also be an X??, but I'd like to throw the question out to the masses: Was the designation "MS60" generic for a group of several classes, including the B60? If so, what other classes qualified to fill a MS60 slot in a consist? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Class PB-70 Schemes Date: Wed, 5 May 99 14:19:59 -0400 From: Jerry During my documenting "24 Hours at Harrisburg", the "Makeup of Trains" book from the New York Division, dated 9/26/54, reveals several "schemes" of class PB-70. Following each declaration that a train consist includes "PB-70" it will read "Scheme 3", "Scheme 4", or "Scheme 6". (I think those were the only three, but there may have been others.) What do these refer to? Were there varying internal arrangements? Or was it a paint scheme? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains to be Modeled Date: Wed, 5 May 99 14:52:19 -0400 From: Jerry Bruce asked me this question privately, but I'd like to pose it to the group, as I don't have the answer and this has always bugged me... On 5/5/99 2:34 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >I noticed the 9:01 p.m. 29 The Broadway Limited...a quick question...one >of my PRR videos has "the Washington Section of the Broadway" coming off >the Columbia branch headed for Harisburg "in the Amtrak era". Was there a >Washington Section of the Broadway in 1954? If so, did it come from >Baltimore on the NC, or did it come up the C&PD/Columbia Branch? As of 1954, there was no Washington section of the BW as the Liberty Limited was running this service via the Northern Central Branch. I've got that video also, and it drives me nuts!!! (I think the video is Penn Valley Pictures' "Under the Catenary", but I'm not sure.) The Washington section of the "Broadway Limited" was made its own train, the "Liberty Limited" in ??? The "Liberty Limited" at some point dissolved as ridership dropped and, I guess, once again became a section of the "Broadway Limited". I would assume that, as in other years and with other trains, the sections rejoined at Harrisburg. Normally, these trains would travel up the Northern Central branch from Baltimore, through York, over the Cumberland Valley bridge, and into Harrisburg. Why would this video show the "Washington section" coming in off the Columbia Branch then? In 1972, Hurricane Agnes ripped apart the Northern Central Branch, particularly between York and the Maryland line. The line has, on average, two bridges per mile. It was deemed too expensive to repair given the amount of use. Remember that by this point all through freight traffic was coming up the "Port Road" and the Atglen & Susquehanna branch to Enola. (The bridges were repaired much later...Enola to York by Conrail, York to New Freedom by Emmons.) Now, with the bridges out due to Agnes, re-routing was needed. It would seem most likely that the trains would have followed the Columbia & Port Deposit (Port Road) from Perryville to Columbia, then would have taken the Columbia Branch from Columbia to Royalton (Middletown), joining the "main line" at ROY, just east of Harrisburg, so the meet could still be made. Alternatively, they might have taken the Atglen & Susquehanna across Shocks Mill Bridge, to LEMO, and back across the CV bridge (although Shocks Mill Bridge had two spans washed out for a few weeks). The route I described above makes sense, except that the video shows footage of the "Washington section" passing what I believe is the Middletown passenger station...which is on the "main line" east of the junction with the Columbia Branch! IMHO, the video miss-identifies its subject. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:47:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 In a message dated 5/5/99 1:28:53 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << LL has been mum on future P2K announcements given the lateness of their current announcements. Guess the E6 is now shipping, but the 2nd run of GP7's is now a month overdue. The GP30's are still due this summer. >> Reading the publicity, it doesn't sound like they are going to do the C-liners south of the (Canadian) border. Or does someone know differently? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:24:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Update: Limiteds of PRR Freight Service The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Freight Service Please read the end notes before reading this list. 01. The Bulldog – Merchandise – Akron to Seaboard Cities* [AE2, Akron to Enola, all freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 02. Flying Cloud – Merchandise – Buffalo to Pittsburg [BF2, all freight} (BF2, Scully Yard) 03. The Bison – Live Stock-Perishable – Buffalo to Seaboard Cities* [BF4, Buffalo to Enola] (BF4, Enola) 04. The Crackerjack – Merchandise - Buffalo to Seaboard Cities* [BF16, Buffalo to Enola, all freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 05. Man O'War – Live Stock – Chicago to Seaboard Cities* (FW8, Harimus Cove, NJ) 06. The Packer – Perishable Freight - Chicago to Seaboard Cities* [CMB, Chicago to Enola] (CMB, Enola) 07. The Mercury – Merchandise - Chicago to [PF2, Enola] Seaboard Cities* (WS4, Harimus Cove, NJ) 08. The Salesman – Merchandise– Chicago to Buffalo [BEC2, All Freight] (BEC2, Crestline to Demmier) 09. The Mascot – Merchandise – Chicago to Pittsburg [PF8] (no longer listed in 1949) 10. The Reliable – Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus [CO4] (NW86, Enola) 11. The Virginian - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus [NW86, All Freight, there is some indication that NW86 may have replaced CO4???] (no longer listed in 1949) 12. The Derby - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Indianapolis [IL2, All Freight,] (IL2, Louisville) 13. The Colonial - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Louisville [CO6] (no longer listed in 1949) 14. The Invincible - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Cincinnati [CO8] (CO8, Logansport to Richmond, IN) 15. Spark Plug - Live Stock-Perishable – Cincinnati to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities [LM4] (LM4, terminate at Pitcairn) 16. The Cincinnatus - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Seaboard Cities* [LM6, Enola] (no longer listed in 1949) 17. The Captivator - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Columbus [LM8, Perishable, Seaboard Cities] (no longer listed in 1949) 18. The Straits - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Detroit [DC2, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 19. The Forest City - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Cleveland [FC2, All Freight] (FC2) 20. The Eagle - - Perishable-Merchandise – Cleveland to Seaboard Cities* [CE2, All Freight, to Enola] (CE2, to Harimus Cove) 21. The Gas Wagon - Merchandise - Detroit to Seaboard Cities* [ED2, All Freight, to Enola] (ED2, to Enola) 22. The Greyhound – Live Stock – East St Louis to Seaboard Cities [PH10] (PH10, Pitcairn) 23. Uncle Sam - Perishable Freight - East St. Louis to Seaboard Cities* [VL2, to Enola] (VL2, Enola) 24. The Eclipse - Merchandise - East St. Louis to Seaboard Cities* [VL4, to Enola] (no longer listed in 1949) 25. The Trailblazer - Merchandise - East St. Louis to Pittsburg [VL6] (VL6, Pitcairn) 26. The Thoroughbred - Live Stock - Indianapolis to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities [PH8] (no longer listed in 1949) 27. The Bullet - Perishable Freight - Indianapolis to Seaboard Cities* [IN2, to Enola] (no longer listed in 1949) 28. The Cat Bird - Perishable-Merchandise – Norfolk to New York [D2, to Harimus Cove NY] (D2, Harimus Cove) 29. The Premier - Live Stock - Pittsburg to Seaboard Cities [WP10] (SW8, E. St. Louis to Greenville, NJ) 30. The Iron Master - Merchandise - Pittsburg to New York [PG12, to Greenville] (no longer listed in 1949) 31. The Champion - Perishable-Merchandise – Pittsburg to Wilkes-Barre [PG16, All Freight] (CSB8, Pitcairn to Hudson) 32. The Oriole - Perishable Freight – [from Southern States] Washington to New York [MD12, Potomac Yard to NY] (MD12, Potomac Yard to Harimus Cove) 33. The Remus - Perishable Freight – from Southern States, Washington to Boston [Not Listed in 1926] (no longer listed in 1949) 34. The Accelerator – Merchandise – Toledo to Pittsburg [WV4] (no longer listed in 1949) 35. The Rocket - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Cincinnati [LM1, All Freight, Columbus to Cincinnati] (CIN1, Enola to Cincinnati) 36. The Big Smoke – Merchandise – Columbus to Chicago [NW85, Other Than Perishable] (NW85) 37. Lightfoot - Perishable Freight - Columbus to Chicago [NW99] (NW99, Logansport) 38. The Valet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Louisville [LC21, All Freight, Columbus to Louisville] (no longer listed in 1949) 39. The Miami - Merchandise – Detroit – Cincinnati [DC3, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 40. The Purple Emperor - Perishable Freight - from Southern States - Washington to Buffalo [BF3, All Freight, Enola to Buffalo, from Potomac Yard] (no longer listed in 1949) 41. The North Star - Perishable Freight – Pittsburg to Buffalo [BF1, All Freight] (BF1, Scully Yard to Buffalo) 42. The White Moth - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Ft. Wayne [FW3, All Freight, Pittsburg to Ft Wayne] (no longer listed in 1949) 43. The Peerless - Merchandise – Pittsburg to Chicago [PF3, All Freight] ( PF3, Pitcairn to Crestline) 44. The Hummer - Merchandise - Pittsburg to St. Louis [PF5, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 45. The Standard - Merchandise - Pittsburg to Detroit [WV3, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 46. The Home Run - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to Chicago [TRS1, and Stock Cars] (no longer listed in 1949) 47. The Refiller - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to E. St. Louis [TRS3, and Stock Cars] (no longer listed in 1949) 48. The Dividend - Perishable-Merchandise - Wilkes-Barre to Pittsburg [PG13, All Freight] (PG13, Buttonwood to Altoona) 49. The Excelsior - Merchandise – Buffalo to Chicago [BEC1, All Freight] (BEC1, Crestline) 50. The Challenger - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Chicago [CO3] (CO3) 51. The Vamp – Merchandise - Cincinnati to Chicago [CO7, All Freight] (no longer listed in 1949) 52. The Queen City - Merchandise – Cleveland to Cincinnati [FC1, All Freight] (FC1) 53. The Blue Goose - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to Buffalo [BF5, All Freight Enola to Buffalo] (BF5, Enola to Buffalo) 54. The Meteor - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to Cleveland [CE1, All Freight, Enola to Cleveland] (VC1, Enola to Cleveland) 55. The Arrow - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to Detroit [ED1, All Freight, Enola to Detroit] (no longer listed in 1949) 56. Star Union Line - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to Chicago [PF1, All Freight, Enola to Chicago] (no longer listed in 1949) 57. The Yankee - Perishable-Merchandise – New England to Chicago [NL1, All Freight, Enola to Chicago from New England] (no longer listed in 1949) 58. The Comet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities* to St. Louis [VL1, All Freight, Enola to Chicago] (VL7, Enola to E. St. Louis) 59. The Ace - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Pittsburg [PG11, All Freight, Harimus Cove to Pittsburg] (CG8, Chicago to Greenville, NJ) 60. The Renown - Perishable-Merchandise – Louisville to Chicago [CO5, All Freight] (CO5, Indianapolis to Chicago) End of original publication. Following are additional trains from the 1949 publication: 61. (Cock o' the Walk - DC8, Cincinnati to Detroit) 62. (The Cornucopia - BNY14, Buffalo to Philadelphia) 63. (The New Englander - CSB2, Altoona to Hudson) 64. (The New Yorker - NY2, Pitcairn to Harimus Cove) 65. (The Ranchman - VL8, East St Louis to Pitcairn) 66. (The Southwesterner - SW1, Enola to East St Louis) 67. [The Blue Streak - All Freight - Louisville to Chicago IN1, 1926 scratched out] I have the original PRR ?? Document, unfortunately it is undated. I believe it to be from the 1930s but I have not been able to confirm. Information in parenthesis ( ) was provided by Rich Orr and is from an AAR publication dated October 1949. The information in parenthesis includes the 1949 origin and destination points if different from original. Information in brackets [ ] was provided by Alan Buchan from PRR General Notice 234-A, "Scheduled Freight Train Service Through and Local" issued November 15, 1926. * Reference to arrival at New York, Philadelphia, and Baltimore. I am assuming that those trains listed as seaboard cities and a destination or point of origin as Enola means that the train terminated or originated at Enola and was divided into or was made up from trains headed for or arriving from New York, Philadelphia, and Baltimore. Can anyone verify this? Corrections and additional information welcomed. I will be adding the time schedule for the trains passing through the Middle Division from a 1935 Employees TT. Will send to those who request a copy. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:01:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains to be Modeled Jerry & folks, Mention of the liberty Ltd got me to thinking and some quick thumbing through the stuff within arms's reach. Seems the Liberty commenced operations as a separate (and all Pullman) train in Sep, 1925. It replaced the Washington section of the Broadway which had commenced in 1923. I think the Liberty ran on it's Chicago-washington route until 1957, when it was discontinued. For a while it ran as a Philley-Chicago train westbound(!) and quasi Chi-New York eastbound, but was essentially a few through cars in other trains by then. The primary Chicago-Washington service was provided by the General from 1957 on, with the Broadway never handling Washington cars at Harrisburg in this era. Far as I can tell, all these trains ran on the Northern Central via York. Amtrak did run a stub service via Columbia from Harrisburg, at least during the combined Broadway-"National Ltd" boondogle, to Washington, joining the corridor at Perryville, but when this ended I don't know. But at least modeling 1954 gives you an unadulterated Liberty Ltd to play with. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:30:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE973E.789D64E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ****Thanks to Hal, Rich and Al for the freight compilations. Hal, you = are correct in your thoughts that many trains ended up at Hbg / Enola / = Conway, etc., only to have their blocks handled again by other trains. Same as with passenger research that I discussed previously, the = Employee TT contains these through freight schedules, and the patterns = can be discerned. The freight guide further indicates which blocks = moved / connected to which trains, even including local service to the = customer. Even though Rich noted the lack of BF-3 in the 1949 "non-PRR" source, in = PRR material, this train shows as continously operating even into my PRR = Days, as we chased it up the P&E in the late1960's. That and the BNY-16, = which continued eastward through Hbg ( Jerry ) and on to NJ, where I = regularly handed it at work. Hal, I will get you some more info after I get through our C&A Tour Two = Research, and our Spring plantings ! Bill***=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE973E.789D64E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
****Thanks to Hal, Rich and Al for the freight compilations.  = Hal, you=20 are correct in your thoughts that many trains ended up at Hbg / Enola / = Conway,=20 etc., only to have their blocks handled again by other trains.
 
Same as with passenger research that I discussed previously, the = Employee=20 TT contains these through freight schedules, and the patterns can be=20 discerned.  The freight guide further indicates which blocks moved = /=20 connected to which trains, even including local service to the = customer.
 
Even though Rich noted the lack of BF-3 in the 1949 "non-PRR" = source, in=20 PRR material, this train shows as continously operating even into my PRR = Days,=20 as we chased it up the P&E in the late1960's. That and the BNY-16, = which=20 continued eastward through Hbg ( Jerry ) and on to NJ, where I = regularly=20 handed it at work.
 
Hal, I will get you some more info after I get through our C&A = Tour Two=20 Research, and our Spring plantings ! Bill*** 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE973E.789D64E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 5 May 99 21:27:04 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: Re: [PRR] Md.,Pa.,Del border Until 1776 Delaware and Pennsylvania were one. There were three counties in Pennsylvania and three in Delaware. The three in PA were Philadelphia, Bucks and Chester. In Delaware still has only three counties, New Castle, Kent and Sussex. These were known as the lower three lower counties of Pennsylvania. Due to the fact that the Quakers in the three Upper Counties could not get along with the people of the Lower three counties. Delaware was permitted to have their own legislature from 1704. The two colonies had the same Governor until 1776. The Mason Dixon Line goes East and West along the lower edge of PA and North and South along the western edge of DE. It then goes East and West along the lower edge of DE. It is so marked along the way. There are even road signs on the highways, crossing the lower boundrey of DE, informing motorists that you are crossing the Mason Dixon Line. The arc between PA and DE is drawn by a radius whose point is the steps of the old New Castle Court House in New Castle DE. To the best of my knowledge no changes were ever made to the line for any RR. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] 24 Hours at Harrisburg, P70 Schemes, and more Date: Wed, 5 May 99 20:18:16 -0400 From: Jerry I've completed a major addition to "24 Hours at Harrisburg", my chronology of train movements through Harrisburg on September 28, 1954. I've completed entry of the eastbound consists, by car type and name. The essay now includes all east-west and west-east passenger trains. If I can locate a Maryland Division "Makeup of Trains" book dated September 26, 1954, I can do the same for Washington/Baltimore to/from Erie/Buffalo/etc trains...something I really want to do. If I can locate a Philadelphia Terminal Division "Makeup of Trains" book dated September 26, 1954, I can do the same for Philadelphia to/from Harrisburg trains...of which there were only a few, mostly commuters. I did find, and added to my site, tables which include a very broad range of non-sleeper passenger car codes. Ever wonder what all those suffii (plural of suffix?) are for? Check it out! I've also discovered and added a table which explains all the P70 "scheme" notations I asked about earlier. It is related to internal arrangements and number of seats. You'll find that at "24 Hours at Harrisburg". Please visit http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ Let me know if you find any typos or errant HTML code. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:53:58 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Trains to be Modeled t 08:01 PM 5/5/99 EDT, you wrote: >Jerry & folks, >Mention of the liberty Ltd got me to thinking and some quick thumbing through >the stuff within arms's reach. Seems the Liberty commenced operations as a >separate (and all Pullman) train in Sep, 1925. It replaced the Washington >section of the Broadway which had commenced in 1923. I think the Liberty ran >on it's Chicago-washington route until 1957, when it was discontinued. For a >while it ran as a Philley-Chicago train westbound(!) and quasi Chi-New York >eastbound, but was essentially a few through cars in other trains by then. >The primary Chicago-Washington service was provided by the General from 1957 >on, with the Broadway never handling Washington cars at Harrisburg in this >era. Far as I can tell, all these trains ran on the Northern Central via >York. Amtrak did run a stub service via Columbia from Harrisburg, at least >during the combined Broadway-"National Ltd" boondogle, to Washington, joining >the corridor at Perryville, but when this ended I don't know. But at least >modeling 1954 gives you an unadulterated Liberty Ltd to play with. >Barry Peltier > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off >this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Hi.... Hmmmm i remember some of this info being in a past issue of the "Keystone" (Vol 28 No. 2 ?) the one with the info on Baltimore. The later Broadway-"National" limiteds were the infamous one car trains...pulled by a single E-unit. And they were one car even in pre Amtrak days,i had the chance to ride one but did'nt. I think before hurricane Agnes it was the last reminate of the old "Buffalo Day Express" but i might be wrong...will have to check my sources on it. I remember one sitting at Penn station in Baltimore just before hurricane Agnes. I have a old Model Railroader magazine with a article about modeling short trains....it shows the single (then PC-amtrak) E-unit and coach traveling along the Port road...(i think just north of the tunnel near the state line.) This was the later Amtrak version. Also for a very short time after amtrak started up (i don't remember the year or month...might have been the mid 70's). Amtrak ran a longer train with a GG-1 up front. I remember the train had at least 4 or 5 cars. as i remember a club or parlor car and three or four coaches. It ran the corridor from Washington to Perryville where it ran on the Port road up to Harrisburg. If i find anything else out...i'll pass it along. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] **Liberty Ltd...#58 & 59.... Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:11:31 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE9744.3AE97020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***Barry, was 1954 too late to have the boat-tail obs, # 112x = series..??? They were rebuilt, not sure of dates, books 'out of = reach'.... .Bill*** ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE9744.3AE97020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
***Barry, was 1954 too late to have the boat-tail = obs, # 112x=20 series..??? They were rebuilt, not sure of dates, books 'out of = reach'....=20 .Bill***
------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE9744.3AE97020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:53:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. In a message dated 5/5/99 10:35:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, prrsignals@adelphia.net writes: > Even though Rich noted the lack of BF-3 in the 1949 "non-PRR" source, in PRR > material, this train shows as continously operating even into my PRR Days, as > we chased it up the P&E in the late1960's. That and the BNY-16, which > continued eastward through Hbg ( Jerry ) and on to NJ, where I regularly > handed it at work. Please do not misconstrue the information I provided to mean that the train did not exit. I was only indicating, from an official AAR document, that the train no longer carried the nickname in 1949. The "gone in 49" meant the nickname was no longer used. Sorry for any confusion. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 05:09:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Delaware Wedge >From a booklet "How Pennsylvania Acquired Its Present Boundaries" by William A. Russ, Jr., copyright 1966, Pennsylvania Historical Association: "...The Circle, as drawn from its eastern end, was supposed to meet the western boundary of Delaware as and when that meridian was surveyed up the middle of the Delmarva Peninsula. The western boundary of Delaware was expected to make a junction with the southern limits of Pennsylvania, thereby creating the northeastern corner of Maryland. The three items (Circle, middle-point line up the Delmarva Peninsula, and the northeastern corner of Maryland) did not quite mesh. The result was a fantastic triangular area, which history knows as the Delaware Wedge. This tidbit of some 800 acres, "extending southwards for three and a fraction miles," was claimed by both Delaware and Pennsylvania until 1921 when the wedge became part of Delaware by concession from Pennsylvania." Each of Pennsylvania's borders has its own story and this neat little booklet covers them all. --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Thu, 6 May 99 09:28:26 -0400 From: Jerry Notable additions over the past 24 hours... HO brass Pennsy 2-10-2 Item #100250194 HC Book "I Remember Pennsy" by Don Wood Item #100548340 PRR Employee Timetable Trenton Div. 1923 Item #100208710 PRR ETT Phila. Terminal Div. 1942 Item #100205494 THE OFFICIAL GUIDE OF THE RAILWAYS -1944- Item #100426665 Pennsy Steam & Semaphores Railroad Book Item #100330289 The Official Guide of the Railways July 1939 Item #100221285 1956 Railway Guide Item #100198201 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Freight car photos needed! Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:22:26 -0400 Hi all, Does anyone have any PRR freight car photos that I can use on my web page? So far I have about 30 photos of various classes of PRR freight cars but more classes aren't represented than are! I'd really like to have a photo of each class! Unfortunately I'm a bit too young to have taken photos of PRR cars! For scanned photos, you can e-mail them to me at this address. If you don't have a scanner, I can arrange to get them scanned (I also have access to a slide scanner.) Thanks for your help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also thank you to everyone who has already sent me photos! Rob Schoenberg http://prr.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 04:44:36 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Pa/Md/De State Line Answer Looks like Fred Abendschein gets the brass ring. Since I've received some questions about what else these maps might show, I thought the URL's might be useful. Library of Congress, Railroad Map Collection http://memory.loc.gov/ammen/gmdhtm/rrhtm/rrhome.html Once there, do obvious things to select an index, select a map, zoom, pan, etc., etc. The maps are all 1900 or earlier. Some are good, some are rather ho-hum. Tech note: If you save an image to disk, it will be saved as something.pl. Be not alarmed, it's really a .gif image. Johns-Hopkins University, Applied Physics Laboratory, Color Landform Atlas of the United States http://fermi.jhuapl.edu/states/ If you go to fermi.jhuapl.edu, you won't be able to find a way to the maps. /states/ is crucial. The first screen offers an index of states. Selecting one of them gets a page of links to different maps, and links to other goodies related to that state. Caution: the 1895 maps are BIG, well over a megabyte apiece. Enjoy. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:57:47 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Oooops. Correction In an earlier post, I mis-typed the URL for the railroad map collection at the Library of Congress. The correct (I hope) URL is: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html I hate it when I'm the user in "User Error". === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MS60 vs. B60 Date: Thu, 6 May 99 16:02:35 -0400 From: Jerry Okay, so an MS60 is usually actually a B60, and maybe can be something else, such as an X42. Here's another twist: In the New York Division "Makeup of Passenger Trains" (consist) book, there are often notations such as: Mail Storage (MS60) Express (B60) Baggage (B60) Etc. My first question is this: Did the PRR keep a separate fleet of B60's for Mail Storage use with the lettering "U.S. Mail"? Or did all B60's have the lettering "U.S. Mail"? Step two, compounding the issue: I just purchased on eBay a book about the Railway Express Agency. It includes the complete text of their 1954 Contract with the Railroads. In it, it specifically EXCLUDES them from being able to handle mail...that was the railroad's job. That means "Railway Express Agency" and "U.S. Mail" were mutually exclusive. However, you see photos everywhere of a B60 baggage car lettered for both. Was it most likely that they were always lettered for both and used interchangably? Anyone know of a photo of a B60 that was "REA" only or "U.S. Mail" only? I'm sure some exist, just curious. Was the assignment of cars as simple as: Mail Storage (MS60) <---used for mail only, "U.S. Mail" lettering Express (B60) <------ used by REA only Baggage (B60) <-------PRR passenger baggage ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:54:31 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of SUVCWORR@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 10:53 PM To: prrsignals@adelphia.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. It had been stated> Please do not misconstrue the information I provided to mean that the train did not exit. I was only indicating, from an official AAR document, that the train no longer carried the nickname in 1949. The "gone in 49" meant the nickname was no longer used. --------------------------------------- For those PRR-list members not completely familiar with PRR arranged freight service, this is a good point. The list posted contains only the named trains. In addition to the 67 named trains there were over 200 other (non-named) symbol through freight trains (as listed in the 1926 freight train schedule), plus many symbol local freight trains, designated yard crews, switching district trains and transfer runs. And on top of all of this was the extra non-symbol trains that ran as required. For example in 1939 alone there were 340 non-symbol 80 car ore trains dispatched to the E&P from the docks at Erie. It is also difficult to talk about PRR freight service as a static event. Specific origin-destination trains and their schedules were dynamic, always undergoing modifications and change to accommodate changing traffic patterns, division boundary changes, etc. The PRR also designated all of their freight service as "Arranged Freight Service" and although specific departure, passing and arrival times were shown for each train these times did not convey timetable authority. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:45:18 -0400 They were PERMANENTLY coupled together in pairs. They were air throttle and had no nose mu connections, hence could not mu with other Baldwins. They were 5 stripe Brunswick green from birth. They were repainted 1 stripe green when downgraded to pusher service. They were never tuscan red. ---------- > From: VVA249@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES > Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:32 PM > > Heard a rumour last night that Mike's Train House (MTH) has "booked" > enough orders to do these in 2 Rail - Paint Scheme, as shown in Catalog, is 5 > Stripe DGLE. Price quoted was $700 per pair - 2 motors each. Can anyone > confirm? > Questions: > 1) Were they usually run in pairs? > 2) I know that early Baldwins not compatible with other Manufacturers MU > systems - but were they ever run with other Baldwins? > 3) Were they painted Tuscan when they were downgraded to pusher service? > > Dick Ross > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:32:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES Heard a rumour last night that Mike's Train House (MTH) has "booked" enough orders to do these in 2 Rail - Paint Scheme, as shown in Catalog, is 5 Stripe DGLE. Price quoted was $700 per pair - 2 motors each. Can anyone confirm? Questions: 1) Were they usually run in pairs? 2) I know that early Baldwins not compatible with other Manufacturers MU systems - but were they ever run with other Baldwins? 3) Were they painted Tuscan when they were downgraded to pusher service? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] ***PRR Frt Schedules.. Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Al Buchan wrote: > It is also difficult to talk about PRR freight service as a static event. > Specific origin-destination trains and their schedules were dynamic, always > undergoing modifications and change to accommodate changing traffic > patterns, division boundary changes, etc. Indeed. This can be seen with several of the 1960 schedules available on my web site under http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ The keeper [PRR employe] of the original 3-ring binder was not absolutely perfect in replacing older schedules with newer ones, and thus, the book when it came into my possession had a very few train schedules from two and even 3 dates. It is instructive to see how "minor" some of these changes in train schedules were. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:54:53 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] a milestone for "The Limited" Hello all, A bit of happy news: by time you read this, the visitor counter on "The Limited" should be passing the 10,000 mark. "The Limited" was established in October, 1997, when I posted a single page that would soon evolve into the present index page. Since that time, site has been through four restructurings as it has grown by leaps and bounds. The page count has topped the 400 mark and there are something like 600 illustrations of various kinds. Truth is, with the addition of the Search Engine, the site has been growing so fast that I am not sure exactly what the count is. We are now into our 5th Consumer Opinion Survey (still room for your input!) and these surveys have done a lot to help define and shape the planning. To back up this development, some 30 books have been added to the company reference library (almost all of them OOP) and dozens of smaller items such as timetables, booklets, diagram sheets, etc. (not to mention a barrel of postcards!) have been bought as well- mostly through eBay. There have been about a dozen articles by Contributing Authors and at least 2-3 dozen more folks have sent in tickets, timetables, ads, copies of articles, etc. Nearly $1000 has been spent on software specifically for this project: you can see the improvement in the new maps and the Search Engine logos. That is a lot of progress for a mere 18 months! True, there are still a lot of gaps. "The Limited" is rapidly becomming the largest railroad technical and historical site on the internet and it will take years before it really starts to fill up. A lot of the early work has only partly been rebuilt and many of the existing Topics are only roughed in. Still (whenever I can spare the time from business BS and paperwork) I keep plugging away at it. So it will fill in steadily in the future. I would like to thank everyone who had a part in the early development of "The Limited": including: * Jerry, Tom V, Dr. Bruce and Stephen B (among others) over at PRR-Talk; * Mahlon from the Monon List; * Dave Allen from the Nickel Plate Society; * Ed, George and Ken from the Milwaukee List; And a host of others who have connected me with a book here, a Xerox there or sent me a correction - and have since vanished into the night. Enough of tooting my own horn. I really appreciate everyones readership, input and kind words that have helped keep this thing on track. Remember that "The Limited" is intended as a group effort. If you want to tell the story of your favorite road, your contribution - great or small - is welcome. Well- back to the drawing board. Until next, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:08:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 vs. B60 In a message dated 5/6/99 4:01:39 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << That means "Railway Express Agency" and "U.S. Mail" were mutually exclusive. However, you see photos everywhere of a B60 baggage car lettered for both. Was it most likely that they were always lettered for both and used interchangably? Anyone know of a photo of a B60 that was "REA" only or "U.S. Mail" only? I'm sure some exist, just curious. Was the assignment of cars as simple as: Mail Storage (MS60) <---used for mail only, "U.S. Mail" lettering Express (B60) <------ used by REA only Baggage (B60) <-------PRR passenger baggage >> I will jprobably regret this,because I continually find that, even after 45 years of collecting info, I learn something new every day. But here goes. I have never seen a B60 in the 30's to 50's era that didn't have Pennsylvania on the letterboard and "Railway Express Agency" on the lower panel. Later ones of course had simplified schemes. Some earlier ones had "American Railway Express". I have never seen a B60 with "U.S. Mail" lettering, alone or with the REA lettering. Now I will step back and have everyone point out a zillion exceptions to what I just said, but I have racked my memory and cannot come up with any in my collection of paper. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:47:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantagraph Appropos of my other post (MS60)wherein I mentioned I find something new every day (like the time in the last year when I discovered the EP22 with Mars light) about the Pennsy, I just noticed something else new. In photos of the E44, I notice that the Faively pantagraph seems to be aligned such that the knee is forward, no matter whether the unit is running short or long-end forward. Was this a rotatable device and was it deliberately done this way (seems logical)? Bob (lived in Philly for two years and never noticed) Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 23:17:32 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantagraph Bob, They carried two Faivley half-a-graphs, with the "elbows" pointing away from each other. Either could be raised. Steve Bartlett Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > ...... I just noticed something else new. > In photos of the E44, I notice that the Faively pantagraph seems to be > aligned such that the knee is forward, no matter whether the unit is running > short or long-end forward. Was this a rotatable device and was it > deliberately done this way (seems logical)? > > Bob (lived in Philly for two years and never noticed) Zoeller > Fox Point, WI > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] ***e44 pans.. Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:04:56 -0400 ***bob z; there are two fvly pans, back to back, on the roof. hinge to hinge, i should say... lines east bill** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:41:17 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES >From: BBReynolds@aol.com > > - - even if each 3,000 hp unit was connected to a >mate by a drawbar, that was not a PERMANENT connection...anybody care to >describe what a permanent connection between two rail units might consist of ===== I would offer the UP M-10005. These were two carbodies (A and B units) sitting on 4 wheel trucks. However, the two inboard trucks were mounted on a massive span bolster so that the carbodies were actually halves of a single locomotive that pivoted in the center. For that matter: how about the Santa Fe 4-6-6-2 "Prairie Chicken" passenger mallets? These not only had twin articulated chassis, but the boiler flexed in the middle as well. The two engine units were actually bolted to the halves of the boiler barrel. Then, of course, there were several electrics that were joined by drawbars but which could not be separated: the New Haven EP2 and the Milwaukee E2 box cabs had two engine units with drivers and pilot trucks joined by drawbars. Finally, need we discuss Pennsys own DD-1? :-} Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 01:02:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES They were PERMANENTLY coupled together in pairs. They were air throttle and had no nose mu connections, hence could not mu with other Baldwins. They were 5 stripe Brunswick green from birth. They were repainted 1 stripe green when downgraded to pusher service. They were never tuscan red. ---> if those suppositions from herzog and/or WV249 are numbered #1 through #5, I'd agree with all but #1: even if each 3,000 hp unit was connected to a mate by a drawbar, that was not a PERMANENT connection...anybody care to describe what a permanent connection between two rail units might consist of (pun intended).... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:41:57 -0400 Bill Volkmer chimes in: What about the GG-1s? They were essentially two locomotives under one carbody with an articulation pin joining the "halves"! ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES > Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 1:41 AM > > >From: BBReynolds@aol.com > > > > - - even if each 3,000 hp unit was connected to a > >mate by a drawbar, that was not a PERMANENT connection...anybody care to > >describe what a permanent connection between two rail units might consist of > > ===== > > I would offer the UP M-10005. These were two carbodies (A and B units) > sitting on 4 wheel trucks. However, the two inboard trucks were mounted > on a massive span bolster so that the carbodies were actually halves of a > single locomotive that pivoted in the center. > > For that matter: how about the Santa Fe 4-6-6-2 "Prairie Chicken" passenger > mallets? These not only had twin articulated chassis, but the boiler > flexed in the middle as well. The two engine units were actually bolted > to the halves of the boiler barrel. > > Then, of course, there were several electrics that were joined by drawbars > but which could not be separated: the New Haven EP2 and the Milwaukee E2 > box cabs had two engine units with drivers and pilot trucks joined by > drawbars. > > Finally, need we discuss Pennsys own DD-1? > > :-} > > Bob > > Robert A. Boyd > > ======== > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > > "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > ======== > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:09:46 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES --------------65784F370FD2640D0EF8588D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: Don't forget the little B1. Originally built as the BB1 (AC), BB2 (DC) and BB3 (LIRR). The BB1 and BB2s were built with drawbars in between - the BB3 had couplers but where considered a single unit. Nice side view (builder photo) in Pennsy Power I page 260. cos wsbcos Robert A. Boyd wrote: > >From: BBReynolds@aol.com > > > > - - even if each 3,000 hp unit was connected to a > >mate by a drawbar, that was not a PERMANENT connection...anybody care to > >describe what a permanent connection between two rail units might consist of > > Finally, need we discuss Pennsys own DD-1? > > > Bob --------------65784F370FD2640D0EF8588D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:
Don't forget the little B1.  Originally built as the BB1 (AC), BB2 (DC) and BB3 (LIRR).  The BB1 and BB2s were built with drawbars in between - the BB3 had couplers but where considered a single unit.   Nice side view (builder photo) in Pennsy Power I page 260.

cos
wsbcos

Robert A. Boyd wrote:

>From: BBReynolds@aol.com
>
> - - even if each 3,000 hp unit was connected to a
>mate by a drawbar, that was not a PERMANENT connection...anybody care to
>describe what a permanent connection between two rail units might consist of

Finally, need we discuss Pennsys own DD-1?
 

Bob

  --------------65784F370FD2640D0EF8588D-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] ***coupling, other than knuckles Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:53:04 -0400 ****i always understood that the centipedes, and even our newer mu cars today = in married pairs, were described as 'semi-permanently coupled'. this meant that there was a drawbar / linkage between the units that ' no brakeman could put asunder'. no knuckles, no cutting levers. only mechanical forces could divide these into separate pieces, and that was avoided if at all possible. The June 1952 PRR Publication #109-J notes for both of the "centipedes", BP-60a and the regeared / reclassed BH-50: "Single unit locomotive made up of two (2) cabs and frames connected by a draw bar, and cannot be used as separate units." Unusual is that the frt version retained their steam generators, whereas most roads replaced them with additional ballast for greater tractive effort. For example, The two CNJ GP-7s ( 1526 & 1532 ) that took a dive into Newark Bay Draw, came back as heavier, frt only units after rebuilding. Later, Assigned to the LNE, no less ! Next C&A C, T & T Tour will be in June. The mxb book on PRR electrification confirms / notes that, "... a canal aqueduct had to be lifted." L.E. Bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:39:21 -0400 Bill Volkmer replies: If you dig out the article in TRAINS Magazine that I authored back in about April 1983 or so, I am not sure which issue, you can find all you ever wanted to know about the Pennsy centipedes. Permanently coupled meant "married pairs" like the bride and groom MU cars, i.e. you had to take them into the shop to get them apart. Somewhere I have a photo of one uncoupled and you can see the 4 foot or so drawbar hanging out the rear end. The Seaboard and Mexican centipedes had conventional couplers on the rear and could MU with the Alcos on both roads. The drawbars were so rigid that the centipedes could NOT operate over humps without the drawbar lifting up the rear of the units and causing them to derail! That is why they were never used as hump engines which service they would have been TERRIFIC in if they didn't derail. OK? ---------- > From: BBReynolds@aol.com > To: herzog@icanect.net; VVA249@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com > Cc: BBReynolds@aol.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] "O" SCALE BALDWIN CENTIPEDES > Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 1:02 AM > > They were PERMANENTLY coupled together in pairs. > They were air throttle and had no nose mu connections, hence could not mu > with other Baldwins. > They were 5 stripe Brunswick green from birth. > They were repainted 1 stripe green when downgraded to pusher service. > They were never tuscan red. > > ---> if those suppositions from herzog and/or WV249 are numbered #1 through > #5, I'd agree with all but #1: even if each 3,000 hp unit was connected to a > mate by a drawbar, that was not a PERMANENT connection...anybody care to > describe what a permanent connection between two rail units might consist of > (pun intended).... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantagraph Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 08:35:14 -0400 To add some more info on this subject. It is true when the engine was in operation the "knee" always faced forward. It was also standard operating procedure for the crew to raise the second pantograph in ice or snow conditions to get the max out of the connection. The pantographs were independent of each other and did not rotate as suggested. These pantographs operated by air to extend and retract. The engine also carried a long wooden pole on the side of the engine under its belly so that it could be used to pull the pantograph down if it became stuck. I know this from first hand experience. The fire dept that I ran in Falls Twp had a major PRR yard go right through our fire district and on more than one occasion we were called there to put out a fire on these engines and it always seemed that those pantographs sere stuck in the up position. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 9:47 PM Subject: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantagraph > Appropos of my other post (MS60)wherein I mentioned I find something new > every day (like the time in the last year when I discovered the EP22 with > Mars light) about the Pennsy, I just noticed something else new. > In photos of the E44, I notice that the Faively pantagraph seems to be > aligned such that the knee is forward, no matter whether the unit is running > short or long-end forward. Was this a rotatable device and was it > deliberately done this way (seems logical)? > > Bob (lived in Philly for two years and never noticed) Zoeller > Fox Point, WI > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Fri, 7 May 99 11:09:45 -0400 From: Jerry New listings...a pretty good day for SPF's! 1950-3 PRR New York - Trenton TT's (8) Item #101041736 1940-9 PRR New York - Trenton TT's (7) Item #101041019 1934-9 PRR New York - Trenton TT's (6) Item #101040112 1954-9 PRR Baltimore-Washington TT's (4) Item #101039448 1939-48 PRR Baltimore-Washington TT's (4) Item #101039226 Book-Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch Item #101008862 PRR 1957 calendar Item #100910847 PRR 1956 calendar Item #100910840 PRR 1955 calendar - Army/Navy Game Item #100910833 PRR 1939 calendar top Item #100910810 PRR 1936 calendar top - GG-1 Item #100910800 PRR 1940 calendar top Item #100910823 PRR 1935 calendar top - Horseshoe Curve Item #100910792 Official Guide - 1881 Item #100885950 Official Railway Equipment Register - 1930. Item #100884663 RARE PENNSYVANNIA R.R PRINTS 1899 Item #100867207 PA - RAILROAD BOOK OF RULES 1956 Item #100787917 Pennsylvania Railroad-History Broad StStation Item #100690284 "PRR" Fullsize Calendar 1957 (Near MINT) Item #100813860 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:04:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantagraph Hi All, Does anyone know of a source for HO scale Faively or similar pantographs? I've been try to find the Roco (#85216, DB type) pans for 3 years or more with no luck at all! Help! I need around 10 of the buggers (enough for 5 locos). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantograph Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:50:52 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 9:47 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] E-44 Faively pantagraph The E-44's actually had two Faively pantographs and depending on which direction they were moving the appropriate one was engaged. This is shown well on pages 258 and 261 (both bottom) of PPIII. Al Appropos of my other post (MS60)wherein I mentioned I find something new every day (like the time in the last year when I discovered the EP22 with Mars light) about the Pennsy, I just noticed something else new. In photos of the E44, I notice that the Faively pantagraph seems to be aligned such that the knee is forward, no matter whether the unit is running short or long-end forward. Was this a rotatable device and was it deliberately done this way (seems logical)? Bob (lived in Philly for two years and never noticed) Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vastano,Sam" Subject: [PRR] Roco 4 Axel Shark Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:05:13 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE9892.A08B8D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a question for all the rivet counters, How is the Roco 4 axel = shark painted DGLE with a single stripe, In terms of correctness for = the PRR? Thank you Sam Vastano ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE9892.A08B8D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a question for all the rivet = counters,=20 How is the Roco 4 axel shark painted DGLE  with a single stripe, In = terms=20 of correctness for the PRR?
 

Thank you
 
Sam Vastano
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE9892.A08B8D60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] ***coupling, other than knuckles Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:01:29 -0400 Ditto for GG-1 4800. It had a slab of concrete put in place of the steam generator at Wilmington Shop in August 1960. I was there. ---------- > From: Bill Strassner > To: PRR Talk > Subject: [PRR] ***coupling, other than knuckles > Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 7:53 AM > > ****i always understood that the centipedes, and even our newer mu cars > today = in married pairs, were described as 'semi-permanently coupled'. > this meant that there was a drawbar / linkage between the units that ' no > brakeman could put asunder'. no knuckles, no cutting levers. > > only mechanical forces could divide these into separate pieces, and that was > avoided if at all possible. > The June 1952 PRR Publication #109-J notes for both of the "centipedes", > BP-60a and the regeared / reclassed BH-50: > "Single unit locomotive made up of two (2) cabs and frames connected by a > draw bar, and cannot be used as separate units." > > Unusual is that the frt version retained their steam generators, whereas > most roads replaced them with additional ballast for greater tractive > effort. For example, The two CNJ GP-7s ( 1526 & 1532 ) that took a dive into > Newark Bay Draw, came back as heavier, frt only units after rebuilding. > Later, Assigned to the LNE, no less ! > > Next C&A C, T & T Tour will be in June. The mxb book on PRR electrification > confirms / notes that, "... a canal aqueduct had to be lifted." L.E. > Bill**** > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Model Photo List, Its Friday! Here is another HO Scale PRR Model to view for those of you who are interested. This Loco is the K4s and the model is a brass import from PFM. The owner of this one wanted the look of a engine that seen lots of service and little upkeep. The customer was pleased, although personally, a little too drab for my roster. One note about the color. It really is not that green. Bad scan I guess! You can find the photo here: http://www.goodnet.com/~mittner/pb.jpg This is the last photo I will post for awhile. Look for more in early to mid June when I return from the Southwest USA.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] ***the half-a-g, or G1 @ wilm.... Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:11:39 -0400 The did that caper after I left the Wilmington area which was 1961. Sorry. ---------- > From: Bill Strassner > To: PRR Talk ; herzog@icanect.net > Subject: Re: [PRR] ***the half-a-g, or G1 @ wilm.... > Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 3:58 PM > > ***Might Bill V. care to share any tales about the G1, half a GG1, shop > switcher / snow blower at Wilmington ? Beyond unique ! ...thx, L E Bill ... > modeling the Enterprise Branch from MG to about where Tyrone was > standing....*** > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: Re: [PRR] ***the half-a-g, or G1 @ wilm.... Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:58:21 -0400 ***Might Bill V. care to share any tales about the G1, half a GG1, shop switcher / snow blower at Wilmington ? Beyond unique ! ...thx, L E Bill .... modeling the Enterprise Branch from MG to about where Tyrone was standing....*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] fwd: PRR History from NS Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:40:02 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell NS sends out Conrail merger press releases with Conrail and NS Heritage historical snippets, and (surprise!) lots of the Conrail history bits are about the Pennsy. Here's the latest: ------- Forwarded Message Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:48:41 -0400 from: NSINFO@nscorp.com subject: Implementation Update, 5/7/1999 Implementation Update (Available on the World Wide Web at http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/update/) May 7, 1999 Conrail Heritage Charisma, durability and versatility characterized the Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1 locomotive. The "G," as admirers called it, long served as a symbol of the PRR, and its unusual shape was the image generations of people associated with the railroad. The locomotive was PRR-built, and its sleek design came from famed industrial designer Raymond Loewy. Fifty-seven of the 139 GG1s produced were geared for freight service, while the remaining 82 pulled passenger trains that reached speeds of 100 mph. In operation, their sound was that of machinery in action -- a mechanical din. But their horns, curiously, sounded like those found in large ocean-going vessels. The GG1 locomotives, true to their standard of durability, dominated the electrified lines of the PRR through the Penn Central period and into Conrail's early years. ------- End of Forwarded Message ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:32:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR F7b's Can anyone tell me which PRR F7 B units made it too PC and if any of them were Phase IIb. Numbers and reference for photos in PC Paint would be appreciated. I know this isn't strictly PRR but they were originally. THanks Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:52:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] fwd: PRR History from NS In a message dated 5/7/99 4:32:21 PM Central Daylight Time, dennis@bbn.com writes: << The locomotive was PRR-built, and its sleek design came from famed industrial designer Raymond Loewy >> As part of its summary of things to save from this century (like the zipper, antibiotics,etc), the Utne Reader listed the design of the original Coca-Cola bottle, from Raymond Loewy. Think I'll write to them and suggest his GG1--it spanned about half of the century and symbolized timeless good railroading design worldwide. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:47:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Ballast (was coupling, other than knuckles) In a message dated 5/7/99 1:52:57 PM Central Daylight Time, herzog@icanect.net writes: << Ditto for GG-1 4800. It had a slab of concrete put in place of the steam generator at Wilmington Shop in August 1960. I was there. >> Actually, there was a significant change in diesel weighting somewhere from Generation 2 to 3, I think. My brother and I had the common thread of both supplying parts to EMD over about 25 years, he as owner of a foundry and myself as manager in DC products and controls for Allis-Chalmers. He used to comment to me that they filled the frames of the first and early second generation diesels with concrete in any open nooks and crannies to get weight on the driving wheels. By the time I got into the late 70s electrical supply, the weight of electronics and electrical equipment, plus larger prime movers meant they were sometimes looking for ways to save weight. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:35:59 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ***the half-a-g, or G1 @ wilm.... Bill, There are front and rear, er... mid-section views of this on page 58 of the Quadrant Press Review #6 "The Remarkable GG1" by Karl R. Zimmermann. According to the caption under the photos, "This strange animal, the remains of GG1 No. 4686, which was scrapped in 1967, is used as a self-propelled snow blower to clear the switches in the shop area at Wilmington." Don't ya just love those cute little bay windows so they can see to run it what would be backwards? :-) I visited Wilmington in March of 1982 and got a couple of photos of it myself--not that I can find the darned things since I moved out to Oregon. Don't have any idea if it's still "among the living". Chuck Friedlein Bill Strassner wrote: > > ***Might Bill V. care to share any tales about the G1, half a GG1, shop > switcher / snow blower at Wilmington ? Beyond unique ! ...thx, L E Bill .... > modeling the Enterprise Branch from MG to about where Tyrone was > standing....*** > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBatWatch Date: Sat, 8 May 99 09:07:22 -0400 From: Jerry New notable listings... HO brass Pennsy 2-8-2 L1 by PFM Item #101156560 HO brass Pennsy 2-8-2 L1s by Oriental Item #101144267 HO brass Pennsy J1 2-10-4 Item #101057221 PRR 1945 Employee Timetable (CINCINNATI Div.) Item #101338779 ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:58:47 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Westside K3 .... pics on website. Just got a wad of photos back from the developer and have managed to get a few scans onto the website last night. These are of a Westside K2 that got the Lines West treatment and was converted into K3 #8656. There's a list of modifications that I made, to go with the three pics. http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/frame2.htm (picture 14) Hopefully I'll get some more scans uploaded over the weekend. These include some views of our Westmorland Enginehouse layout with its new scratchbuilt 500 ton Fairbanks Morse coaling tower. Will post to the group when they're up & running. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Soc. website at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk Views and info of our layouts plus news, construction techniques, members' layouts, fun stuff and loads of links. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] More OCS Trips - Perhaps the last as CR Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 08:43:32 -0400 Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 8:00 PM Subject: OCS > > Well, the "empty" train left early...very early...06:30AM..!!! Carl >Kennedy was onboard & I did get to talk to him for a few minutes... > This wasn't exactly the "last trip"... You will have 2 more chances >to shoot it...one (only one way) with all 3 E's and (I think...10 cars) >NEXT TUESDAY MAY 11th probably after 1 or 2Pm in the afternoon as she >DH's west from ALTOONA to CLEVELAND...!!! > On WEDNESDAY MAY 12th...they will run an OP-LIFESAVER (crossings and >cameras etc...) from there to Crestline...(don't know if all the train >will be used out of Cleve...) That same evening, the whole mess will DH to >COLOS for an overnite stay... > On THURSDAY MAY 13th...there will be another OP-LIFESAVER out of COLOS >up to CRESTLINE...(and rtn...) That nite sometime at BUCKEYE..?? the cars >and units will be split up to their respective owners (excepe one that will >be delivered to CSX in D.C. the next week off of an EXEC SPL to the CAPITOL >....as an NS (CR) OCS out of PHILLY...) The CSX will assume operation of >their 2 units (4021..4022..???) at that time (in COLOS) and will DH'd them >south via PT.Pleasant, Ohio... > On FRIDAY MAY 14th...the lone "E" (4020..??) and 5 cars will DH'd thru >here (via CRESTLINE) sometime during the day..??? to ALTOONA... > The next TUESDAY..??? MAY 18th...??? the NS (CR) OCS-SPL will run out >of Philly to the aforementioned mtg at Wash. D.C. After that, the remaining >consist (minus the other CR/CSX car....#10..????) will return to ALTOONA /JBS >where it will continue to be based....till...??? (potentially forever...) At >some time (seperate trip..??) all the ramaining NS OCS cars (about 20+...??) >will also be moved to JBS / ALTOONA to be stored in the big shed (It can hold >about 30 cars total..) > > More details as time progresses... > > > (Tom please RETAIN this mssg...and fwd it to Patch & JK...thanks...) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] ***some neat PRR slides on Ebay... Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 12:17:13 -0400 ***Hi, All- There are two neat PRR slide collections being offered on ebay, # 98809790 and 98811037, by one of the highest rated sellers on ebay. One set is 29 color slides of GG1's ( full engines, no half's...) and the latter is 31 color steam slides. ( gee, no diesels..???? hahaha). I lost out already ( way over budget this month for signal stuff...) and I did not see any of the regular list folks bidding, did not wish to step on any toes, so..... good luck !!!! Lines East Bill...... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 21:48:43 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse 500t coaling tower..... model pics. Four more pictures of our Westmorland Enginehouse HO layout have been up loaded: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/westeng2.htm Three of the pictures show our new 500 ton coaling tower which replaced the somewhat inadequate Bachmann tower. I'd always been embarrased about its lack of capacity especially as we 'serviced' such locos as T1s, M1s and J1s with it. The new tower looks much more business like. A pair of Hallmark Baldwin Centipedes also feature on the first picture. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Soc. website at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk Views and info of our layouts plus news, construction techniques, members' layouts, fun stuff and loads of links. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] North Pemberton, NJ PRR Station Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 17:44:50 -0400 The New Jersey Historic Preservation Office held their 9th Annual Historic Preservation Awards Ceremony today, 8 May 1999, at the Old Barracks Museum in Trenton. The awards were chosen and presented by the NJ State Historic Sites Council, a group of individuals appointed by the Governor to oversee the protection of the State's Historic Sites. One of the nine awards presented was for the outstanding rehabilitation of the PRR North Pemberton Train Station in Pemberton Township, NJ. This station was on the original Pemberton and Hightstown Railroad, later the Camden and Burlington County Railway and during PRR became the Pemberton Branch from Block Station Cooper MP 1.5 (in Camden) to Block Station Pemberton MP 24.9. Beyond Pemberton to Camp MP 28.8 (Ft. Dix) it was the Dix Running Track. At Camp the line connected to the Union Transportation Company. Because of a spindly wooden trestle over the Rancocas Creek in Mt. Holly the line beyond Mt. Holly MP 18.7 was not conveyed to Conrail. Just west of North Pemberton and east of Birmingham the railroad split with the southern line going through South Pemberton (Pemberton Borough) and eventually crossing the CNJ at Whitings and thence to Toms River. From Toms River it was possible to proceed up the coast by railroad to South Amboy and beyond via the NY&LB. This route was sometimes referred to as "the back road." This was the Pennsylvania and Atlantic Railroad and in later PRR years this line was known as the Birmingham Secondary from Birmingham MP 23.4 to Toms River MP 50.9 (end of track). The Birmingham station has also be completely rehabilitated by a private individual. Unfortunately it is not at its original site but relatively nearby. There is also a bike path from the site of the Birmingham Station to the North Pemberton Station. I also understand that the old ROW from Birmingham to South Pemberton will become a bike trail also. Thus one could make a loop of the ROW of course using main street to get from North Pemberton to South Pemberton. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 19:25:43 -0400 From: "John E. Moore" Subject: [PRR] Train wreck Does anyone know or how to find out about a train wreck that happened July 24, 1943 in Fayetteville, NC. The train was the Atlantic Coast Champion. I would appreciate it very much. Thank you. John E Moore ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] **Virus going around again.. Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 05:40:15 -0400 ***I just rec'd an email from a new pal, and right behind his message was another from him, subject title " happy.exe." This virus went around last fall, and once imbedded in your computer, it generates a following message to your last sent, with this file only. DO NOT OPEN IT !!! Not really dangerous, supposedly, but locks up your box for 15 minutes with a simulated fireworks display. Lines East Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 21:33:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse 500t coaling tower..... model pics. In a message dated 5/8/99 2:57:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jhwright@jhwright.demon.co.uk writes: << Four more pictures of our Westmorland Enginehouse HO layout have been up loaded: >> WOW! Quite impressive! The Centipedes aren't bad either. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 20:32:05 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] **Virus going around again.. > From: "Bill Strassner" > To: "TALK PRR-" > Subject: [PRR] **Virus going around again.. > Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 05:40:15 -0400 > ***I just rec'd an email from a new pal, and right behind his message was > another from him, subject title " happy.exe." > This virus went around last fall, and once imbedded in your computer, it > generates a following message to your last sent, with this file only. DO NOT > OPEN IT !!! Not really dangerous, supposedly, but locks up your box for 15 > minutes with a simulated fireworks display. > Lines East Bill*** This does more than that. Many times it will set itself up to raid your address list and send itself to 50 more people if it can. Not dangerous, but definitely a b----- to get rid of. Just delete the .exe file without opening and you are fine. This one IS real. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://users.vnet.net/paulrver/st_welco.html ========= == NMRA Standards & Recommended Practices =============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 23:17:22 -0700 From: Steve Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Train wreck That's easy, just go to the nearest city library of the event and dig thru the microfilm copies of the newspapers. I find a lot that way. You already have the date, that makes it 10 times easier. You will also want to hit the regional paper for the area besides the local paper. Steve Long John E. Moore wrote: > Does anyone know or how to find out about a train wreck that happened > July 24, 1943 in > Fayetteville, NC. The train was the Atlantic Coast Champion. I would > appreciate it very much. > Thank you. > John E Moore > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 01:13:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse 500t coaling tower..... model pics. Stu and all, I had to bookmark that site. These are truly fantastic modules, very detailed. Check out the craftsmanship and sign in on there Web-book. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] North Pemberton, NJ PRR Station Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 01:11:13 -0400 Al Buchan wrote: > One of the nine awards presented was for the outstanding rehabilitation of > the PRR North Pemberton Train Station in Pemberton Township, NJ. This > station was on the original Pemberton and Hightstown Railroad, later the > Camden and Burlington County Railway and during PRR became the Pemberton > Branch from Block Station Cooper MP 1.5 (in Camden) to Block Station > Pemberton MP 24.9. Beyond Pemberton to Camp MP 28.8 (Ft. Dix) it was the Dix > Running Track. At Camp the line connected to the Union Transportation > Company. Because of a spindly wooden trestle over the Rancocas Creek in Mt. > Holly the line beyond Mt. Holly MP 18.7 was not conveyed to Conrail. Pemberton?, you say. This humble turn of the century brick depot would seemingly have little significance next to an Altoona or an Enola. But on November 12, 1957, K4s #5351 pulled Train #982 on the last passenger train behind steam on the PRR. And on July 14, 1959, B6sb performed the last revenue steam duties on the the diminutive Union Transportation Company--the old Pemberton & Hightstown--and passed through Pemberton on its trip to Philadelphia's 49th Street enginehouse to drop its fires forever. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 09:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Photographs List, Hello, Just found out about another site that has posted PRR Photographs. Don't know how long that site has been doing this. Some of you may already know about, most not. Its new to me! Steam, Diesel, Pass cars, Freight cars. Something like 250 pics. I myself never seen any of these shots before. It can be found at: http://gowest.coalliance.org/ After you get there click on the search. Another page will come up and click on continue. Then type in PRR in the search engine. These are the property of the Denver Library. Check them out, pretty nice shots!....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 15:26:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] fwd: PRR History from NS In a message dated 5/7/99 8:11:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 5/7/99 4:32:21 PM Central Daylight Time, dennis@bbn.com writes: << The locomotive was PRR-built, and its sleek design came from famed industrial designer Raymond Loewy >> As part of its summary of things to save from this century (like the zipper, antibiotics,etc), the Utne Reader listed the design of the original Coca-Cola bottle, from Raymond Loewy. Think I'll write to them and suggest his GG1--it spanned about half of the century and symbolized timeless good railroading design worldwide. Bob Zoeller >> I'd always heard the GG-1 was Loewy-designed, but in Mike Schafer's recent color-illustrated book on Pennsy history, he reminds us that the body style of "Rivets" (the prototype GG1), was an adaptation of the "P5a modified" body. He says that what Loewy did was 1) suggest a welded body, to get rid of all the rivets 2) design the 5-stripe paint scheme This leaves us with Raymond Loewy doing a "redesign for mass production", still with plenty of room to say that he was the father of the GG-1's good looks. OTOH, few people ever held a GG-1 in their hand, and they were not available from ubiquitous red vending machines, so to non-railroaders, the classis coke bottle will probably continue to be the defining Raymond Loewy design. Rick Tipton Way west of the catenary in Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 17:25:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] fwd: PRR History from NS In a message dated 5/9/99 2:26:55 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << and they were not available from ubiquitous red vending machines >> Which, BTW, I am led to believe Raymond Loewy also designed. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 19:31:53 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] fwd: PRR History from NS >From what I have read of Loewy's GG-1 involvement, he also made significant changes to the body contours, even to the point of refining them after the first full-size mockup was built. But, I agree, the basic body shape was the PRR's. Steve Bartlett RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > I'd always heard the GG-1 was Loewy-designed, but in Mike Schafer's recent > color-illustrated book on Pennsy history, he reminds us that the body style > of "Rivets" (the prototype GG1), was an adaptation of the "P5a modified" > body. He says that what Loewy did was > 1) suggest a welded body, to get rid of all the rivets > 2) design the 5-stripe paint scheme > > This leaves us with Raymond Loewy doing a "redesign for mass production", > still with plenty of room to say that he was the father of the GG-1's good > looks. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: LISTMASTER WARNING (was Re: [PRR] **Virus going around again.. Date: Sun, 9 May 99 20:17:33 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/9/99 5:40 AM, Bill Strassner (prrsignals@adelphia.net) wrote: >***I just rec'd an email from a new pal, and right behind his message was >another from him, subject title " happy.exe." > This virus went around last fall, and once imbedded in your computer, it >generates a following message to your last sent, with this file only. DO NOT >OPEN IT !!! Not really dangerous, supposedly, but locks up your box for 15 >minutes with a simulated fireworks display. >Lines East Bill*** I've said it before, I'll say it again...This is not a virus alert list! If you want alerts about viruses, join the CERT advisory list. If the same people continue to bring up virus this and virus that on this list, they will have an opportunity to write their warnings on the walls of the "penalty box" after I lock it and throw out the key. Unless you know of a computer virus that affected position light signals, cab signals, or trainphones...get off it! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] InterMountain F Units Date: Sun, 9 May 99 20:21:31 -0400 From: Jerry Many of you may be following the numerous new F units that are hitting the streets: Athearn/Highliners, InterMountain, etc. InterMountains' first release looks real good. I contacted them (through my "Merchandise Service" shop) and asked about PRR schemes. The indicated we will definitely see F7 A and B units in PRR livery this year. They will be doing all F units from F2 through F9 and will likely do PRR schemes for all that were applicable. Good news! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Mon, 10 May 99 12:57:52 -0400 From: Jerry Noteworthy items listed over past 48 hours (sorry for my tardiness!): HO BRASS P.R.R. BM-60 MAIL CAR IN BOX Item #101942400 HO BRASS SUNSET MODELS P.R.R. 2-8-0 IN BOX Item #101941021 Pennsy HO Brass SW1 NORES *Visa/MC* Item #101933845 HO PROTO 2000 Pennsylvania Railroad E8/9 Item #101824133 <---#5713 Tuscan single stripe Atlas/Kato PRR RS-3 Item #101687328 Proto 2000 PRR E8/9 No Reserve! Item #101661115 <---#5713 Tuscan single stripe PRR Middle Div. Employee Timetable 1953 Item #101909301 PRR Toledo Div. Employee Timetable 1946 Item #101908063 PRR Indianapolis Div. Employee Timetable 1948 Item #101907059 PRR Erie & AshtabDiv. Employee Timetable 1947 Item #101905958 PRR Pittsburgh Div. Employee Timetable 1946 Item #101905117 PRR Maryland Div. Employee Timetable 1941 Item #101904139 PRR MAP Enola Yard Harrisburg Pa. Item #101504707 PRR Employee TT #5, Northern Div,1953 VG.! Item #102037206 PRR NY REGION EMPLOYEE TIMETABLE No 1 Item #101735207 <------ April 1956 DM 1945 PRR CT 1000E - Stations & Sidings Item #101732936 DM PRR Emp. TT #10 - Phila. Region - 1945 Item #101709662 DM PRR Emp. TT #1 - Western Reg. - 1964 Item #101694745 DM PRR Emp. TT #12 - Chesapeake Reg. - 1961 Item #101684336 PRR Calendar-Autographed Grif Teller Poster Item #101559814 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:18:14 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] fwd: PRR History from NS Bill Volkmer said: >I believe the P-5 modified carbody was a derivitive of the GG-1, not the >other way around. The only welded P-5a, 4770 was done after a boxcab of >the same number was in a bad wreck. Sorry Bill, The riveted modified P5a carbodies came BEFORE #4800. A grade crossing accident with a boxcab which occurred while production of the P5a was underway led to a halt in construction and a redesign, resulting in the P5a modified. Thus, it has been correctly stated that the GG-1 is a derivative of the P5a modified. You are correct in stating that #4770 was the only welded P5a, but this unit was rebuilt in 1944-45 after a wreck, and does not represent the only P5a modified, just the only welded one. As for Loewy's contributions, the nose on the P5a modified is significantly different from that of the GG-1, so Loewy had significant input into the lines whch define the GG-1. BTW, this is one reason that "chopping" a GG-1 body does not result in an accurate model of a P5a modified. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] fwd: PRR History from NS Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:32:42 -0400 I believe the P-5 modified carbody was a derivitive of the GG-1, not the other way around. The only welded P-5a, 4770 was done after a boxcab of the same number was in a bad wreck. ---------- > From: Stephen Bartlett > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Cc: MEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [PRR] fwd: PRR History from NS > Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 7:31 PM > > >From what I have read of Loewy's GG-1 involvement, he also made > significant changes to the body contours, even to the point of refining > them after the first full-size mockup was built. But, I agree, the > basic body shape was the PRR's. > > Steve Bartlett > > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > I'd always heard the GG-1 was Loewy-designed, but in Mike Schafer's > recent > > color-illustrated book on Pennsy history, he reminds us that the body style > > of "Rivets" (the prototype GG1), was an adaptation of the "P5a modified" > > body. He says that what Loewy did was > > 1) suggest a welded body, to get rid of all the rivets > > 2) design the 5-stripe paint scheme > > > > This leaves us with Raymond Loewy doing a "redesign for mass production", > > still with plenty of room to say that he was the father of the GG-1's good > > looks. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballast (was coupling, other than knuckles) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:15:35 -0400 General Electric routinely filled the frames of the switchers with a combination of concrete and, I believe, lead pellets, or at least steel pellets, in order to make a 44 tonner a 65 tonner for example. Sure made life difficult for the diesel spotter crowd without a roster in hand! Bill Volkmer ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Ballast (was coupling, other than knuckles) > Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 7:47 PM > > In a message dated 5/7/99 1:52:57 PM Central Daylight Time, > herzog@icanect.net writes: > > << Ditto for GG-1 4800. It had a slab of concrete put in place of the steam > generator at Wilmington Shop in August 1960. I was there. >> > > Actually, there was a significant change in diesel weighting somewhere from > Generation 2 to 3, I think. My brother and I had the common thread of both > supplying parts to EMD over about 25 years, he as owner of a foundry and > myself as manager in DC products and controls for Allis-Chalmers. > He used to comment to me that they filled the frames of the first and early > second generation diesels with concrete in any open nooks and crannies to get > weight on the driving wheels. > By the time I got into the late 70s electrical supply, the weight of > electronics and electrical equipment, plus larger prime movers meant they > were sometimes looking for ways to save weight. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas W. Haugh" Subject: [PRR] PRR RS-2s Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:39:44 -0500 To the list: Richard D.Orr's posted diesel roster shows the PRR purchased 6 RS-2s from the DH in 1958. Kato has just released RS-2s in N-scale but had the audacity not to release a PRR version. I will have to start with either an undecorated shell or strip one. Questions: 1. Were the purchased units air-cooled or water-cooled? 2. Did they sport friction trucks or roller bearing trucks? 3. What color did the PRR paint them? Thanks, Tom Haugh tom.haugh@ibm.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Final Ride - John Keel Date: Mon, 10 May 99 16:53:24 -0400 From: Jerry I regret to inform the list membership of the passing of John Keel (Da72jmk@aol.com) on April 25th. I just spoke with his wife and learned that he had a massive heart attack and died on the tennis court. With her blessing I am passing this information on. John leaves behind his wife and two children. John's wife will be contacting me over the next few weeks for assistance in disposing John's PRR railroadiana and model railroad collection. We have discussed eBay, where John traded regularly. More later. John, thank you for all of your involvement with this list over the years. You will be missed. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Mon, 10 May 99 16:27:49 EST Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] PRR RS-2s In regards to the PRR RS-2's (ex-D&H), can it be confirmed that they had the standard short hood or did they have the narrow RS-2 hood? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana P.S. I believe PRR leased these six RS-2's from D&H in 1955 or '56 then purchased them outright in '58. These units were basically assigned on the Western (or Northwestern) Region. These units worked locals out of Chicago, Logansport, Ft. Wayne, and Crestline. There could other locations that I don't know about. Based on my collection of the trainsheets from Warsaw Tower (Warsaw, Indiana - Ft. Wayne Line), some of these units were still working locals in 1965. What made these units interesting was that they had single headlights and maintained their original D&H numbers. In addition, the font that PRR used for the numbers, under the windows, was not standard and I think was based on the D&H. Ok, I think that I am done babbling......;-) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR RS-2s Author: Derrick J Brashear at Internet Date: 5/10/99 4:43 PM On Mon, 10 May 1999, Thomas W. Haugh wrote: > To the list: > > Richard D.Orr's posted diesel roster shows the PRR purchased 6 RS-2s from > the DH in 1958. Kato has just released RS-2s in N-scale but had the > audacity not to release a PRR version. I will have to start with either an > undecorated shell or strip one. Don't bother; Apparently the D&H RS-2s were very late phase units, and had what was basically an RS-3 carbody, or certainly much closer to one than an RS-2. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:32:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR RS-2s On Mon, 10 May 1999, Thomas W. Haugh wrote: > To the list: > > Richard D.Orr's posted diesel roster shows the PRR purchased 6 RS-2s from > the DH in 1958. Kato has just released RS-2s in N-scale but had the > audacity not to release a PRR version. I will have to start with either an > undecorated shell or strip one. Don't bother; Apparently the D&H RS-2s were very late phase units, and had what was basically an RS-3 carbody, or certainly much closer to one than an RS-2. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:36:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch kibitzing In a message dated 5/10/99 1:31:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Atlas/Kato PRR RS-3 Item #101687328 >> Thanks Jerry. One out of the Four PRR items I've got listed on E-bay an't bad. the other three are : #101793635 2 Gloor Craft/Quality Craft 85' auto racks wood and metal craftsman kits #100317562 Collector's set of PRR prints NR! #101123801 "Pennsylvania Railroad, a pictorial history" Bonanza Books' mid 1960s reprint of the classic illustrated history issue just after the Centennial celebration in 1946. A true first edition of this book was posted on Railroadiana Paper May 6 as item # 100715817. It expires Wednesday, Mine ends Thursday. Tom V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:52:02 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] John Keel To the list... I'd like to give my condolences to the family....I can understand how it feels...As you all know i went through this recently too. Til Later H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:07:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] LAST RUN - John Keel In a message dated 5/10/99 4:00:43 PM EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: << I regret to inform the list membership of the passing of John Keel (Da72jmk@aol.com) >> John was a good friend and an "O" scale buddy - member of our "Round Robin" club, while he was here in the Cleveland area. If he was 50, he couldn't have been past it by much; he leaves a wife and two daughters, still in High School. Though he left this area sometime ago we continued to "chat" via AOL and this list. He and I had discussed the idea of making "O" scale H21s out of Weaver 2 bay hopper cars. He had made a couple of samples and gave a clinic at the "O" Scale National last spring - with a full size chop saw ! In an AOL "IM" to me he said "Clinic went well - had about a dozen folks - Most of them shuddered at the thought of taking a chop saw to a plastic kit - Wimps !" John believed that one of the reasons for "O" scale was that you could use REAL tools. An "O" scale disciple of the "Tim the Toolman Taylor." When it comes to the PRR each of us has our own "niche" or specialty - John concentrated on PRR Gondolas and the Elmira Branch. I will miss his knowledge of both - and John himself, very much. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: eBayWatch kibitzing Date: Mon, 10 May 99 21:29:45 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/10/99 7:36 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: ><< Atlas/Kato PRR RS-3 > Item #101687328 > >> >Thanks Jerry. One out of the Four PRR items I've got listed on E-bay an't >bad. As Tom points out, I did not list all of the items that he is selling in my daily tabloid "eBayWatch". Okay, here's the deal... If you want to see all "PRR" items, go online to eBay and search for all the variants of "PRR" in the three main categories I check. If you don't have the time to do so on a daily basis, then eBayWatch may be for you. My daily summary WILL INCLUDE: employee timetables, calendar prints, Official Guides, ORERs, discontinued higher-grade models (P2K, Atlas, brass, etc.), etc. I WILL NOT INCLUDE items that are regular commodities: public timetables, passes, lanterns, photos, etc. It's a judgement call, on my part, but heck, I'm sure my tips have been useful to someone? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Attention Bill Laird Date: Mon, 10 May 99 21:31:29 -0400 From: Jerry Bill Laird, please contact me. The e-mail address I have on file for you is returning errors. I have your P2K GP7 second run unit in and need to contact you! BTW: "TAN" in the SUBJECT means "Tangent" for those who are wondering. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul W. Schopp" Subject: Re: [PRR] North Pemberton, NJ PRR Station Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:10:32 -0400 SPF's: The North Pemberton station structure was constructed in the 1890s using PRR standard station plan No. 5000. IIRC, many years ago there was a company called Alexander Models who made an HO scale model of a station remarkably similar to North Pemberton. When I first heard that a serious effort was being made to restore the building, I presented the committee with a xerographic reproduction of the original plans. If anyone is interested in constructing a model of this station, copies of the plans can be obtained by visiting the Hagley Library in Greenville, Delaware. North Pemberton also featured a two-hole privy, which has been recovered from someone's backyard after many years use as a toolshed, and a bunk facilities for the crews. A steam generating plant was present for maintaining heat in passenger cars and, many years ago, a turntable was diagonally across the tracks from the station. A section shed stood west of the station. Best, Paul Schopp spanky@voicenet.com ================================================================= -----Original Message----- From: Richard F. Makse To: PRR Talk Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] North Pemberton, NJ PRR Station >Al Buchan wrote: > >> One of the nine awards presented was for the outstanding rehabilitation of >> the PRR North Pemberton Train Station in Pemberton Township, NJ. This >> station was on the original Pemberton and Hightstown Railroad, later the >> Camden and Burlington County Railway and during PRR became the Pemberton >> Branch from Block Station Cooper MP 1.5 (in Camden) to Block Station >> Pemberton MP 24.9. Beyond Pemberton to Camp MP 28.8 (Ft. Dix) it was the >Dix >> Running Track. At Camp the line connected to the Union Transportation >> Company. Because of a spindly wooden trestle over the Rancocas Creek in >Mt. >> Holly the line beyond Mt. Holly MP 18.7 was not conveyed to Conrail. > >Pemberton?, you say. > >This humble turn of the century brick depot would seemingly have little >significance next to an Altoona or an Enola. But on November 12, 1957, K4s >#5351 pulled Train #982 on the last passenger train behind steam on the PRR. >And on July 14, 1959, B6sb performed the last revenue steam duties on the >the diminutive Union Transportation Company--the old Pemberton & >Hightstown--and passed through Pemberton on its trip to Philadelphia's 49th >Street enginehouse to drop its fires forever. > >Dick Makse > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off >this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:54:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR RS-2s Tom and all, Save your money and buy an RS-3. There has been a lot of unclear information on the 6 units that PRR bought from Delaware and Hudson. I have seen them listed in both RS-2 rosters (including PRR's) and also in RS-3 rosters ... go figure. What I can say to all is that these six units were built in October of 1950 and officially sold to Pennsy in September of 1957 but had been on the property since June of 1955. They carry all the traits of an early RS-3 phase 1b, vertical louvers on the battery boxes, 1400 galloon fuel tank, walkway steps behind the cab but going the other way it had the 244B block and 567 generator. But one spotting feature that cannot be ignored the fuel filler and tanks were mounted on the tank under the frame and not under the floor of the cab. This was where the electrical cabinet was mounted. This could be the deciding factor and would make me believe that ... it could be an RS-2 in an RS-3 carbody. How's that for some tap dancing. But, Tom if you are going to buy an ALCO Road switcher, start with an RS-3 and mount the turbochargers stack crosswise in the center of the shell. Ignore the KATO offering they did the right thing by not painting it in PRR, they do not look the same. Get a good photo to work from and have fun modeling. Greg Martin watching from Lines way out West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:04:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Check out PRR Ambroid Kits on e-Bay Jerry, Thanks for the ground rules. The prints and auto rack kits qualify and I skate on the Pictorial History because I used the opportunity to point out there's a true First Edition, 1947 Norton Books, also on bid. Now that I've placed my bids, if ya'll want a treat, tune in e-Bay's search page and punch in Ambroid into the title search blank. You'll find a HO X23 kit (item #100361430) and an O Ambroid X23 kit (item #100387130) and an O ND/NDa cabin car kit (item #100400212) Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:34:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] ex D&H Rs-s something's To all. Couple of corrections: 1)They carry all the traits of an early RS-3 phase 1b... NOT!!!!! I meant an RS-3 phase 1a sorry. 2)...but going the other way it had the 244B block and 567 generator. Wrong it had a GT-564 generator. Sorry the later RS-3's had a GT-581 generator. Just remember what you are seeing is a high bred of the FA/B-2. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:46:46 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Final Ride - John Keel Jerry wrote: > > I regret to inform the list membership of the passing of John Keel > (Da72jmk@aol.com) on April 25th. How very sad -- we will surely miss him. John was always kind, generous, and more than helpful when it came to sharing his knowledge and resources. Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 23 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:28:47 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] PRR RS-2s Or... Buy 'em as they are...and enjoy model railroading. There's a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Tom and all, > Save your money and buy an RS-3. There has been a lot of unclear > information on the 6 units that PRR bought from Delaware and Hudson. I have > seen them listed in both RS-2 rosters (including PRR's) and also in RS-3 > rosters ... go figure. What I can say to all is that these six units were > built in October of 1950 and officially sold to Pennsy in September of 1957 > but had been on the property since June of 1955. They carry all the traits > of an early RS-3 phase 1b, vertical louvers on the battery boxes, 1400 > galloon fuel tank, walkway steps behind the cab but going the other way it > had the 244B block and 567 generator. But one spotting feature that cannot > be ignored the fuel filler and tanks were mounted on the tank under the frame > and not under the floor of the cab. This was where the electrical cabinet > was mounted. This could be the deciding factor and would make me believe > that ... it could be an RS-2 in an RS-3 carbody. How's that for some tap > dancing. > > But, Tom if you are going to buy an ALCO Road switcher, start with an RS-3 > and mount the turbochargers stack crosswise in the center of the shell. > Ignore the KATO offering they did the right thing by not painting it in PRR, > they do not look the same. Get a good photo to work from and have fun > modeling. > > Greg Martin watching from Lines way out West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me call 'em as I see 'em." *Visit my "Panther Den" web site at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/TheDen.htm *The Central Indiana Post Polio Support Group's web site can be found at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/PPSG.htm Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Fw: PRR Class AS-15m Units Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:09:21 -0400 ---------- > From: Ken Douglas > To: Thomas W. Haugh > Cc: Bill Volkmer > Subject: PRR Class AS-15m Units > Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 11:26 PM > > Mr. Haugh, > > Bill Volkmer relayed the e-mail you posted on the Kato RS-2 models which > are painted for PRR. > > Before answering your questions, it must be noted that the PRR units > purchased from the D&H were actually model Alco RS-3 units. The D&H > chose to rate their earlier RS-3 units at 1500 HP. Since I got this > from a D&H Road Foreman of Engines while riding the cab on a D&H fan > trip, I know this is not railfan fiction. Of course, the Alco data > confirms this. This made it convenient to distinguish them as class > AS-15m on the PRR. > > A photo taken by the PRR of the 4047 when it was first were painted > shows the unit soon after they were purchased. > > 1. The turbo is oriented lengthwise on the 4047 when first painted--it > was air cooled then. A 1965 photo of the 4044 shows the turbo oriented > crosswise--meaning a water cooled turbo. It was not unusual for roads to > replace air cooled turbos with water cooled units when a turbo failed. > > 2. The axle bearings are interesting. The photo of the 4047 when first > painted are Timken roller bearings. A photo I took of the 4044 in 1965 > are solid bearings. I guess you would have to take a survey to answer > that one. > > 3. The units were painted standard PRR Brunswick Green, which is of > course a very, very dark green. > > Hope this helps. > > Ken Douglas > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MC Erie-builts Are Shipping! Date: Tue, 11 May 99 13:29:24 -0400 From: Jerry Good news from the folks at Miracle Castings: My order (the first of all dealers) of Erie-builts has left the plant! Shipping from Ontario takes 10-14 days, normally, so it'll be just a bit longer. All backorders will be filled within 24 hours of receipt. The good news for some of you may be that I will have a few units available for sale! So, if you've been putting it off, don't hesitate any longer. They are en route! You can still order through "Merchandise Service" at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. I am also accepting advance reservations for the Erie-built B units (no ETA). BTW: I have BP20 passenger Sharks in stock...both A and B units...as well as Athearn PA units for powering them. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Tue, 11 May 99 11:31:23 -0400 From: Jerry Notable new PRR listings on eBay: PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD - CALENDAR 1941 - VG Item #102759333 RARE PA RAILROAD CALENDAR TRAINS 1952 Item #102710848 '47 Official Railways & Steam Time table Book Item #102461490 DISCLAIMER: eBayWatch does not list all things "PRR". If you wish to see all listings, you'll need to visit eBay and search for yourself. eBayWatch will list hard-sought items such as calendars, employee timetables, pre-1967 ORER's and Official Guide's, discontinued limited edition model railroad products, brass model railroad products, etc. eBayWatch will not list commonly found items such as public timetables, non-prototypical or commonly found model railroad products, stock certificates, tickets, passes, lanterns, china, interest-specific items, etc. It is our judgement call. eBayWatch is brought to you as a service of "Merchandise Service", a reseller of railroadiana and model railroad products specializing in the "PRR" (see http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Wed, 12 May 99 09:45:28 -0400 From: Jerry Notable new listings: Sunset Brass HO PRR early K4,4-6-2 new in box Item #103018320 HO brass PFM Pennsy 2-10-0 Item #102964681 Pennsylvania Railroad PRR Calendar 1934 Item #102854489 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] N6b Cabin Hello List, I am modeling an O scale Quality Craft/Gloor Craft PRR Cabin. I completed it awhile ago and want to add an interior to it now. When I built it I made the roof to be replaceable for this purpose. I built this as a "center" cupola version. I can not find any diagrams that show the setup of bunks, lockers etc. They are available for the "offset" cupola but that is no good for the centered version. Anyone know where I can find this specific interior floor plan? Thanks, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:13:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Amazon.com auction Heard on the radio today that Amazon.com is starting an auction area. Does anybody know if it has a railroad section? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:05:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] List Please take me off the PRR list. In other words, unsubscribe. Thanks !!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:42:20 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Looking for a swap In O scale, I would like to trade a US Hobbies PRR K-4, never assembled, original box, for a US Hobbies or other KTM-built NY Central L-4 Mohawk. Please reply off-list. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Strassner" Subject: [PRR] ***parting is... Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:30:04 -0400 ***Yeah, me too, please take me off prr-list, unsubscribe, thx, bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] GP7 Photos Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:15:02 -0500 Can anyone know where I can find photos of GP7's 8508, 8510, 8546, and 8549, besides the photo of 8549 in Pennsy Steam Years Vol 2? Thanks for the help! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... Date: Thu, 13 May 99 06:18:29 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/13/99 8:30 AM, Bill Strassner (prrsignals@adelphia.net) wrote: >***Yeah, me too, please take me off prr-list, unsubscribe, thx, bill*** DONE! For the rest of the list membership, it ain't that hard. Send "unsubscribe prr-talk" to "listserv@dsop.com". You have no idea how many of these type of questions that I get each and every day. The list headers in each and every e-mail tell you how to unsubscribe. The footer in each and every e-mail tell you how to retrieve the HELP file which also contains these instructions. Do we really need this much hand holding? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] eBayWatch Date: Thu, 13 May 99 08:52:35 -0400 From: Jerry Noteworthy new PRR listings: Pennsylvania pass cars (3 cars) by Spectrum Item #103343681 HO Brass Train PRR 2-10-2 USRA Hvy Item #103267669 Book - Pennsy, A to T - by Carleton Item #103624602 Pennsylvania Rail Road calendar top 1941 Item #103271577 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:56:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... In a message dated 5/13/99 9:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rhensley@anderson.cioe.com writes: << At the risk of being irritating, perhaps a little less E-bayWatch and sales content might go a long way toward these members not leaving...? >> I agree. The PRR list has become far too commercial rather than informational. It appears head to being an infomercial list. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... Date: Thu, 13 May 99 09:59:51 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/13/99 4:09 AM, Roger P. Hensley (rhensley@anderson.cioe.com) wrote: > At the risk of being irritating, No offense taken, I appreciate the feedback. >perhaps a little less E-bayWatch Are there many out there that do not like this one post a day? I have already received numerous e-mails of support for this new service, and none against. I'd be happy to discontinue it. BTW: None of these have been my sales! > and sales content might go a long way toward these members > not leaving...? Are you referring to "Merchandise Service" postings? Hey, I gotta pay the bills somehow! This is a good list -- as are Conrail-Talk and Reading-Talk which also run from my server. Over 700 subscribers between the three. By far most of my sales-related announcements go through the "Merchandise Announce" list that anyone can subscribe to. I will tone down further "sales" posts on "PRR-Talk" in the interest of the subscribers who seem to not be interested. As for members leaving because of it, I doubt that is the case. At best it's the "public excuse" for these folks leaving as a result of my not catering to their every whine and moderating the list. I will not take a "Big Brother" approach and preview all posts and attempt to verify the integrity of all data before it is broadcast. That is an impossible task for subject matter that is past history! Again, your feedback IS appreciated. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:55:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Content I don't like seeing anyone desert the list. I personally would like to see more discussions and information being exchanged. I don't want to see the list become "commercial". This is a great way to learn about new Pennsy items and discuss their relative merits. I like the PRR Merchandise and I don't mind the ebaywatch. Ebay is a great way to find and purchase our Pennsy items. If the ebaywatch post isn't to your liking then just delete it and go on. I just hope the members enjoy the list as much as I enjoy it and will keep participating and remain civil to each other. We're all here to learn from others so let's keep it friendly and understand that the Pennsy had many different styles and sizes to it's operations and try to be tolerant of the others. Please leave the list as it stands. My 2¢, Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:46:15 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... > Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... > Date: Thu, 13 May 99 09:59:51 -0400 > From: Jerry > To: > Cc: > Are there many out there that do not like this one post a day? I have > already received numerous e-mails of support for this new service, and > none against. I'd be happy to discontinue it. BTW: None of these have > been my sales! > > > and sales content might go a long way toward these members > > not leaving...? In all fairness, I also look in on r.m.rr on the newsgroups and I have watched the ebay go from one post ever now and then to being inundated by them. I just don't want to see that here. However, if there are no other complaints, then it is not a problem. > Are you referring to "Merchandise Service" postings? Hey, I gotta pay the > bills somehow! This is a good list -- as are Conrail-Talk and > Reading-Talk which also run from my server. Over 700 subscribers between > the three. Not necessarily. I know that you have to keep afloat. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == The only bad model is the one you won't build because... ===== == ...of what others may think. ================================= CID MWR NMRA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] ListServ Changes Date: Thu, 13 May 99 11:33:00 -0400 From: Jerry I appreciate the numerous comments -- both supportive and not -- that I have received over the past few hours about content on the list. As a result of these comments, I am making the following changes: 1. No more eBayWatch posts. Even though many people praised them and I was NOT pushing my own auctions, I will no longer make these posts. 2. The footers announcing sales at "Merchandise Service" will be removed. Please bear in mind that I have always encourage other companies to purchase this space for advertising and only placed my own ad when there was no paid ad. These footers will be removed this evening, as I cannot remove them remotely. 3. I will no longer make posts to the list about forthcoming products with any reference to price or availability from "Merchandise Service". However, discussing new products in general is germain to the list. For those who wish to receive such announcements, please join the "Merchandise Announce" list as instructed on the "Merchandise Service" web page. This list results in 2-3 posts per week and is an announcement-only list. These three changes should suffice to "de-commercialize" the list. However, please remember that Desktop Solutions foots the bills to run many lists and web sites as a public service. That being the case, I have modified my signature to relate that fact. This information will appear on any post from me, but is little different than the commercial signatures of Dennis (D&S Hobbies), Bob Boyd (Those Classic Trains), etc. IMLO (In My Listmaster Opinion) this IS fair game! Again, thank you for ALL of your input. I do listen! We are a family of over 300 individuals and we must get along. "PRR-Talk" has proven itself as a valuable resource time and time again! BTW: Statistically speaking, I have noticed that "bitch" mail to the listmaster is inversely proportional to list traffic. That is, when nobody is talking PRR, people find other things to "bitch" about. Excuse the French! Perhaps the academians on the list can prove a law based on this hypothesis! 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:22:09 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Purple Emperor redux Several months ago someone asked whether or not the PRR had a train named The Purple Emperor and if so, why. That led to a lot of debate as to why that name, whether Rudyard Kipling had anything to do with it, whether the Purple Emperor butterfly was involved.... Last week I wandered into the produce department at the local Giant Eagle and lo, there was a huge bin of grapes. Purple Emperor Grapes, they were. Wasn't the PRR Purple Emperor intended to move perishables to Buffalo? Hmmmm. A new suspicion as to where the 4th Vice President for Selection of Names for Named Trains may have gotten inspiration. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:09:51 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... > Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... > Date: Thu, 13 May 99 06:18:29 -0400 > From: Jerry > To: "Bill Strassner" , > "TALK PRR-" > > On 5/13/99 8:30 AM, Bill Strassner (prrsignals@adelphia.net) wrote: > > >***Yeah, me too, please take me off prr-list, unsubscribe, thx, bill*** > > DONE! > > For the rest of the list membership, it ain't that hard. Send > "unsubscribe prr-talk" to "listserv@dsop.com". You have no idea how many At the risk of being irritating, perhaps a little less E-bayWatch and sales content might go a long way toward these members not leaving...? Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === Remember, Model Railroading is FUN..! ======================= CID MWR NMRA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... Date: Thu, 13 May 99 12:24:51 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/13/99 11:54 AM, Bill Volkmer (herzog@icanect.net) wrote: >I wonder how many of you people cancelled your subscription to Trains >Magazine because there was advertising in it? Hmmmmmmmmmm? > Ouch! ------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:43:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... As long as the level of civility remains high (as it usually does on this list) and subject matters are clearly delineated, I have a wide tolerance for what is discussed. That is what the delete key is for. Other lists discuss benchwork in minuscule detail and every three months this list goes around on DGLE. I don't complain. I delete. As far as commercials, yeah, I seldom buy MR anymore because of the volume of the ads, but I think that this list is aimed at both historians and modelers and I like to hear news about (especially) somewhat rare PRR-related items as well as the new commercial offerings of accurate PRR equipment from certain manufacturers . I believe we should support Jerry's commercial efforts which help to keep this list going. Otherwise I liken it to people who listen to public TV or radio but don't support it. My $.02 worth. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:50:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] ebay watch Jerry, I'm new to this list and it would not bother me if the "ebay watch" was removed as it only adds one more mail item to the in basket. However, keeping it on there will not cause me to drop off the list. Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:54:38 -0400 I wonder how many of you people cancelled your subscription to Trains Magazine because there was advertising in it? Hmmmmmmmmmm? ---------- > From: Jerry > To: rhensley@anderson.cioe.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... > Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 9:59 AM > > On 5/13/99 4:09 AM, Roger P. Hensley (rhensley@anderson.cioe.com) wrote: > > > At the risk of being irritating, > > No offense taken, I appreciate the feedback. > > >perhaps a little less E-bayWatch > > Are there many out there that do not like this one post a day? I have > already received numerous e-mails of support for this new service, and > none against. I'd be happy to discontinue it. BTW: None of these have > been my sales! > > > and sales content might go a long way toward these members > > not leaving...? > > Are you referring to "Merchandise Service" postings? Hey, I gotta pay the > bills somehow! This is a good list -- as are Conrail-Talk and > Reading-Talk which also run from my server. Over 700 subscribers between > the three. > > By far most of my sales-related announcements go through the "Merchandise > Announce" list that anyone can subscribe to. I will tone down further > "sales" posts on "PRR-Talk" in the interest of the subscribers who seem > to not be interested. > > As for members leaving because of it, I doubt that is the case. At best > it's the "public excuse" for these folks leaving as a result of my not > catering to their every whine and moderating the list. I will not take a > "Big Brother" approach and preview all posts and attempt to verify the > integrity of all data before it is broadcast. That is an impossible task > for subject matter that is past history! > > Again, your feedback IS appreciated. Thank you. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off > this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Comments on the list From: Fred G Rea Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:37:28 EDT I am sending this to Jerry, but also to the list if any want to take exception to what I say. I like the list very much. I find it adds much to my day to check it now and then. Now only about 50% of it is of any interest, and less than 5% of great interest. That is a better batting average than I get from many of the media I read/watch. The only thing that irritates me is people complaining about what they don't like (as I am doing now I guess). Example: I do not have www access so E-Bay watch is of little interest, however, my E-mail software (Juno) makes it very easy to delete messages for which I have no interest. So do whatever it takes to keep the list going. As long as the subject line accurately reveals the contents I will not be offended. Thanks for all the effort it must take to keep the list going. It has introduced me to many new friends. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:56:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... In a message dated 5/13/99 12:40:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << >I wonder how many of you people cancelled your subscription to Trains >Magazine because there was advertising in it? Hmmmmmmmmmm? >> Well, actually I canceled subscriptions to Trains and MR when the advertising content (column inches) exceeded 85%. And quite buying them from a hobby shop as well. BTW. Jerry none of my remarks were aimed at your Merchandise Sevice information. They were aimed at the ebay updates and the few subscribers who insisted on announcing everything they they placed on ebay to the list along with the increasing number of "I have for sale" Rich Orr Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:58:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Hey, anyone want to talk about the PRR? Clearance Car In a message dated 5/13/99 2:53:17 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Does anyone know of any published photos of this car at work? What type of motive power pulled (or pushed) it? Was it run as a single car consist? Or as a head-end car in a regular passenger train? >> Seems to me there was a shot in the first Herron video "The Glory Years" showing the single car being pushed by an I1(?) up the Curve. I'll dig it out (need to look at that video again anyway) to verify. Bjob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:48:06 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] MU Car Pantograph Heights While looking through a PRR _Makeup of Trains_ book, New York Division, No. 11, April 27, 1947, I came across a table listing, by number, pan heights for vatious MU cars (last printed page in the book). Can anyone offer information on where various cars would have been operated or prohibited? Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Purple Emporer Date: Thu, 13 May 99 15:52:39 -0400 From: Jerry Regarding the Purple Emporer... The April 26, 1954 ETT shows this as an Enola to Buffalo train, yet it shows a passing time at HARRIS tower at 7:45 p.m. Now go and figure that one out! It's symbol was BF-3. Accoding to the 1952 Schedule of Through Freight Trains, the Purple Emporer contained two blocks of cars, as follows: Block 1.....Buffalo and beyond, including perishables not requiring re-icing at Renovo Block 2.....Renovo, inclusive, to Buffalo, exclusive. (This block, No. 2, to include perishables for Buffalo and beyond requiring re-icing at Renovo.) So, it certainly could have contained the "Purple Emporer" grapes as previously mentioned. But could that alone been the source of its name? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden J SPL" Subject: [PRR] freight car help Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:44:08 -0700 Please, all you freight car experts, I would love to hear your sources/opinions/references/guesses; I have seen nothing EVER on the following interesting PRR freight car subjects, which would make FASCINATING models or topics for articles or such. If you know ANYTHING, please enlighten us. 1) There was an F41 #469585, equipped with Sand "Invert-A-Bin"s. Photos? Purpose? Assigned to? 2) Despite what is regarded as historical "fact", there were both X31a and one X29k, and up to 15 cars assigned to Coal Tar Pitch loading, with compartments constructed inside. There is a photo of one in one of the Morning Sun books. Where were they assigned? How was the coal tar handled? Were there taps or valves on the underside, or what? 3) Aside from the G31d (and a partial of a G32a) with H21 side extentions pictured in the Morning Sun freight car book #2, there were a number of G22 and GS assigned to scrap loading, also with extensions. Are there any pictures of these? Where did they operate out of? 4) Aside from the G22b's assigned to cement loading with the HB-1a containers, there were also some G36e's assigned. Any photos? Assigned to? 5) There were almost a hundred G22, G27a, and G36e outfitted with Bulk Containers, at least one of them for processed coke loading. Any other photos? Any photos of the containers, especially close-ups of the lettering? Any other commodities? Assigned to? Were they used to transport coke from the producer to small end-users? Who? 6) How were the X33, X33a, X38a, X45 and X41a assigned to "Felt" service used? Why an end-door car? Any ideas? 7) Five G36b were assigned to "Electric Furnace Electrode" service. Any ideas? What did their equipment consist of? They were the ONLY G36b's produced. Why? Did they have a non-standard floor? 8) There were 20 G35's and G36f's assigned to aluminum cable service. What did the "bulkheads and stringers" look like? 9) How about the F30a's assigned to "tin plate" service? 10) There were batches of G31d's, G36c's assigned to "cold rolled bar" service. How did they differ from the "skids and covers" equipped ones? Photos? Assigned to? 11) How about the "skids and covers" gons? Anyone know of a source for plans for the covers? Where were they assigned? 12) How about all the G36a and g assigned to coil strip service, without hoods, but equipped with "wood stringers". Any ideas? Assigned to? 13) There were F30a, F30d, and, believe it or not, 57 X37b assigned to "hot rolled" steel, equipped with double floors and 24" side plates. Where were these assigned? Photos? 14) There were also many G31 and G36 assigned to "steel bundle" service. How did these differe from general service gons? What special equipment did they have? Where were they assigned? 15) There were 4 F25 c,d,e equipped with bracing for transport of diagonal steel plates. Aside from the single shot in the Keystone, are there any other plans, photos or the like? 16) There are oodles of other flats and gons assigned to special service that would be wonderful modeling subjects. Can you ID any others? Would anybody interested in modeling these guys drop a line? I have scratchbuilt a couple special cars so far, and would be interested in doing some others, maybe for a resin kit. Does anyone want to participate in the research, giving me ideas, pointing me in the right direction? Does anyone out there have any interest in these coolest of freight cars? Help! Thanks, Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Hey, anyone want to talk about the PRR? Clearance Car Date: Thu, 13 May 99 15:15:45 -0400 From: Jerry Can we get back to the railroad we know and love? Yesterday I became aware of RailWorks new brass offering, Clearance Car No. 3. It seems like a really cool car and I am pondering purchasing one. It went into service in 1950 and there's a photo of the exact car in the Winter 1997 issue of The Keystone...at Harrisburg, which is where I am modeling! Anyway, I'm trying to learn more about how this car worked. I know it has "whiskers" that extend out which I am guessing set off alarms when something is detected within its realm along the right of way. The description from RailWorks indicates that it was constructed from a coach and had a crew of four and contained sleeping quarters, kitchen, dining room, lounge, and work area. I'd like to know more... Does anyone know of any published photos of this car at work? What type of motive power pulled (or pushed) it? Was it run as a single car consist? Or as a head-end car in a regular passenger train? If it wasn't in a regular train, were there other cars in the consist? Idler flats, for example? Fascinated minds want to know! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] ***parting is... Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:26:07 -0400 (EDT) SUVCWORR@aol.com scrivit: > [my remarks] were aimed at the ebay updates and the few subscribers who > insisted on announcing everything they they placed on ebay to the list along > with the increasing number of "I have for sale" > Rich Orr Rich & the group, didn't this list once have a policy of "advertisements on Wednesday only"? Or am I thinking of another list? At any rate, perhaps it's time to [re]start such a policy. Further, perhaps the "for sale" items could be gathered into a single digest-style email for distribution once, or at most twice per week? The for-sale would include announcements of EBay listings. This would further encourage EBay submissions on the day before they are listed on PRR-Talk. Jerry, think about it! Personally, I never cared. I don't have to look at an email to delete it, thanks to this ancient UNIX mail program called elm. (But elm is like the Roman roads - they may be ancient, but they still work perfectly.) If I'm not interested in the subject, I mark for deletion, sight unseen, and messages get deleted when I exit the program. If I miss something interesting by doing so, it's the fault of the person posting for not making the subject line reflect the content. Of course, I could whine about it myself, but what is to be accomplished thereby? 2 c -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:30:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pic of Emporium Junction Greetings! I just uploaded a panorama of Emporium Junction to my web space on AOL. I took it about five years ago. The Conrail snappers are standing on the sight of the old engine house. The line to the left goes to Buffalo, to the top to renovo and to the lower right to Erie. I think you might like it. See it here Emporium or try members.aol.com/odyard.emporium/jpg I like Ebay watch. Please keep it up. Don Murphy Recreating the Renovo Division circa 1946 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] MU Car Pantograph Heights Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Stephen Bartlett scrivit: > > While looking through a PRR _Makeup of Trains_ book, New York Division, > No. 11, April 27, 1947, I came across a table listing, by number, pan > heights for vatious MU cars (last printed page in the book). Can anyone > offer information on where various cars would have been operated or > prohibited? > Steve Bartlett Steve, at least some information is available in the employee timetable, low wire, etc. ALso look under the Electrical Operating Instructions. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:09:57 From: Bob Rothrock Subject: Re: [PRR] Content At 11:55 AM 5/13/99 EDT, Huber25@aol.com wrote: > >Please leave the list as it stands. > >My 2¢, >Roger > - I agree. There's a wealth of information to be had here, and we all have the option to blow off that which is not of interest. Every "fallen flag" should have a list as good as this one... Bob >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off >this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has IHC GG-1's at 25% off this month! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:42:01 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Hey, anyone want to talk about the PRR? Clearance Car >Clearance Car No. 3. >Does anyone know of any published photos of this car at work? > >What type of motive power pulled (or pushed) it? Whatever was available...I've seen a photo with a diesel switcher...I think it is Don Ball's book... >Was it run as a single car consist? Or as a head-end car in a regular >passenger train? The clearance car was usually run as a single car special, shoved by the motive power in question so that the crew had an unrestricted view forward. The car was run over the line prior to an oversize load to ensure that clearances were OK. In addition, I'm sure that the car would be run over the line before a new, larger class of loco was allowed at least in steam era days. >If it wasn't in a regular train, were there other cars in the consist? >Idler flats, for example? Not usually... BTW, I wonder if it "hung out" at Harrisburg when not in use or if that was just a "lucky shot" Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:58:02 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/13/99 >I appreciate the numerous comments -- both supportive and not -- that I >have received over the past few hours about content on the list. > >As a result of these comments, I am making the following changes: > >1. No more eBayWatch posts. Even though many people praised them and I >was NOT pushing my own auctions, I will no longer make these posts. ===== Jerry, You might consider setting up a separate List for folks who want eBaywatch, Merchandise Service and posting their own for sale and wanted items. Call it the "Switch-List" or some such. Any thoughts here? Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:41:49 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Clearance Car Hi All, Fischer's "Color Guide-Vol. 2", page 119, shows Clearance Car #497125 crossing a small river in Lewes, Delaware behind PRR BS6 #7862 in 1967. An N5(A?, B?) trails behind it. Feelers in retracted position in photo. Caption states it was built by Altoona Car Shops during 1950. Also makes reference to a "previous Clearance Car dismantled that year". Further states "...feelers...would be deflected when striking an obstacle, giving a record of the clearances on a given route." Caption corroborates crew accomodation info but no details. Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:10:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] freight car help Eldon and All, I can shed some light on a couple of your questions, but I am sure it will only serve to stimulate more questions. <> Coal Tar is a tar distilled from bituminous coal and used as ingredients for creosote, some pharmaceuticals (dandruff shampoo), and also used in dyes. I know that in Oroville, Ohio the Koppers company operated Pressure Treating Plant and it takes a plant like this to treat pilings and ties and post. I wonder if Pennsy operated it's own treating plant as did the Southern Pacific in Eugene, OR for in house use? Perhaps the cars where assigned there. As a former lumber purchasing agent I had to be familiar with the product. Creosote is a carcinogen and although may not cause cancer, but can, it does cause boils in the sweat glands and can cause hair and skin loss, nasty stuff. So it makes perfect sense to keep only certain cars in this service. <<6) How were the X33, X33a, X38a, X45 and X41a assigned to "Felt" service used? Why an end-door car? Any ideas? >> I can only make reference to the X45's. They had special oak "rub" rails attached to length of the inside of the cars. See my x45 article in January issue of Model Railroading as Richard "Dr. Pennsy" Berg supplied a photo of one to help support my article (totally cool guy). It has the door off in a rip track and you can see a rail inside the doorway. Hope this helps start things off. Greg Martin watching from Lines way out West. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:21:52 +0000 Subject: [PRR] My apologies... I'm sorry that I ever brought up the subject of the eBayWatch and ads. Those who say that I can always delete are quite correct. I can also leave. So be it. I have not contributed anything of worth and I certainly didn't want this result to my message. Again, my apologies. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === You have the Green. Highball! =============================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:41:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Clearance car The 1953 19th edition of the Car Builders Cyclopedia devotes one page (447) to this car with two exterior photos and one interior showing the arrangement of the feeler connections on the inside. The arch of feelers could be extended and one picture shows it in a raised position. The base of the arch which is about 6" above the bottom window rail in the down position is even with the roof line. One caption also states that the car is equipped with train-'phone and intercommunication system, diesel unit for power and light. Built at the Altoona shops. The feelers appear to have wires coming from one end or small pneumatic tubes to possibly cause an audible alarm or feed a recording device of some type not pictured. The outside of the car has two floodlights on each side to light the feelers for visual reference. Since this book is out of copyright I suppose I could scan these pictures for anyone who is interested. this book also has an excellent section of pictures of the Budd Congo and Senator cars with interior layouts and photos also as well as several other PRR cars including a BM70 mail car. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 01:19:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR clearance car Would like to let all here who are interested in the PRR clearance car know that it still exists. It's located in Geigertown Pa. with a collection of trolleys, Rdg cabooses and other assorted rr items. It's owned by the Shirley family who own a feed/hardware store across the street from the equiptment. The last time I saw it which was a few years ago it was Tuscan Red. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 01:13:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Track Charts On a weekend outing with my wife and another couple at an antique mall just outside of South Bend Indiana I found what is to me the best haul of PRR memorabilia I have ever found in one location. I purchased 17 track charts and the May 1, 1945 CT1000 covering the whole PRR! I have been talking to Jerry about the possibilities of scanning the charts and he has graciously offered with Keystone Crossings as the location for them. The question I pose to the group is which one do they want to see first. Here are the choices: Central Region Northern Division Branches Jan. 1955 Central Region Conemaugh Division Branches Low Grade - Ridgway, Sligo - Brookville Jan. 1953 Pittsburgh Region District A Branches Dec. 1958 Pittsburgh Region District A Pittsburgh-Altoona Dec. 1958 Central Region Northern Division Mainline - Buffalo Mainline - Erie Jan. 1955 Pittsburgh Region District A Monongahela Branch and Branches Dec. 1958 Central Region Conemaugh Division Main Line and Branches Dec. 1958 Pittsburgh Region District A Cresson Branch and Branches Dec. 1958 Pittsburgh Region Altoona District Branches - Clearfield, Moshannon, Fairbrook Branch Jan. 1959 Central Region Conemaugh Division Chautauqua and Salamanca Branches Dec. 1958 Central Region Pittsburgh Division Branches Jan. 1931?? Pittsburgh Region Altoona District Branches-Holidaysburg,Petersburg,Morrisons Cove Jan. 1959 Central Region Panhandle Division Branches Jan. 1934 Central Region Allegheny Division Banks to Derry Jan. 1965 Central Region Conemaugh Division Allegheny Branch and Branches Jan. 1957 Any input would be most appreciative. Randy Williamson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:41:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts(reply) Randy, I realize I will be outvoted here but ... in this order here are my top two! Central Region Panhandle Division Branches Jan. 1934 Central Region Conemaugh Division Allegheny Branch and Branches Jan. 1957 Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Relocation of eBayWatch Posts Date: Fri, 14 May 99 08:34:05 -0400 From: Jerry Yesterday I mentioned as a possibility, now I mention it as a done deal... I have received literally dozens of e-mails from folks who want to receive the daily eBayWatch mailing. I also received a few from eBay bidders who don't want the added competition and asked me not to post it! Anyway, after asking the subscribers and receiving no complaints, I will make this daily post to the "Merchandise Announce" list. This is the announcement list from "Merchandise Service" that has been used for marketing announcements from my company. There are usually 2-3 posts per week -- very low traffic. To subscribe to this list, send "subscribe MerchandiseAnnounce" to listserv@dsop.com. Now that this issue is put to rest... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:24:06 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts Greetings to Randy and the group, My very unbiased votes are as follows first goes to Central Region Northern Division Mainline - Buffalo Mainline - Erie Jan. 1955 second goes to Central Region Northern Division Branches Jan. 1955 Just one opinion. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Clearance car Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:08:54 -0400 There was a clearance car stored at Renovo while I there in the 1950s. I think I took a shot of it but never printed it. Hence I don't remember the car number. If I come across the neg., I will print it and post it on the web somewhere. ---------- > From: NDBPRR@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Clearance car > Date: Friday, May 14, 1999 12:41 AM > > The 1953 19th edition of the Car Builders Cyclopedia devotes one page (447) > to this car with two exterior photos and one interior showing the arrangement > of the feeler connections on the inside. The arch of feelers could be > extended and one picture shows it in a raised position. The base of the arch > which is about 6" above the bottom window rail in the down position is even > with the roof line. One caption also states that the car is equipped with > train-'phone and intercommunication system, diesel unit for power and light. > Built at the Altoona shops. The feelers appear to have wires coming from one > end or small pneumatic tubes to possibly cause an audible alarm or feed a > recording device of some type not pictured. The outside of the car has two > floodlights on each side to light the feelers for visual reference. Since > this book is out of copyright I suppose I could scan these pictures for > anyone who is interested. this book also has an excellent section of > pictures of the Budd Congo and Senator cars with interior layouts and photos > also as well as several other PRR cars including a BM70 mail car. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:03:34 -0400 WRT track charts, I'm interested in (and certainly in the minority) Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, Keating Summit areas. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com To: PRR-Talk Date: Friday, May 14, 1999 3:08 AM Subject: [PRR] Track Charts > > >On a weekend outing with my wife and another couple at an antique mall just >outside of South Bend Indiana I found what is to me the best haul of PRR >memorabilia I have ever found in one location. I purchased 17 track charts and >the May 1, 1945 CT1000 covering the whole PRR! I have been talking to Jerry >about the possibilities of scanning the charts and he has graciously offered >with Keystone Crossings as the location for them. The question I pose to the >group is which one do they want to see first. Here are the choices: > >Central Region Northern Division Branches Jan. 1955 > >Central Region Conemaugh Division Branches Low Grade - Ridgway, Sligo - >Brookville Jan. 1953 > >Pittsburgh Region District A Branches Dec. 1958 > >Pittsburgh Region District A Pittsburgh-Altoona Dec. >1958 > >Central Region Northern Division Mainline - Buffalo Mainline - Erie > Jan. 1955 > >Pittsburgh Region District A Monongahela Branch and Branches >Dec. 1958 > >Central Region Conemaugh Division Main Line and Branches >Dec. 1958 > >Pittsburgh Region District A Cresson Branch and Branches >Dec. 1958 > >Pittsburgh Region Altoona District Branches - Clearfield, Moshannon, >Fairbrook Branch Jan. 1959 > >Central Region Conemaugh Division Chautauqua and Salamanca Branches >Dec. 1958 > >Central Region Pittsburgh Division Branches Jan. >1931?? > >Pittsburgh Region Altoona District >Branches-Holidaysburg,Petersburg,Morrisons Cove Jan. 1959 > >Central Region Panhandle Division Branches Jan. 1934 > >Central Region Allegheny Division Banks to Derry Jan. >1965 > >Central Region Conemaugh Division Allegheny Branch and Branches >Jan. 1957 > >Any input would be most appreciative. > >Randy Williamson > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:17:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's Hey Yuze Gize, Some time ago there were I believe at least two post regarding the PRR's APF-20A/B (PA/B) stating that after being out shopped as dual service locomotives that the Pennsy installed dynamic brakes back into the units. Well, I have been preparing my article on the LL P2K units and have found no evidence of this. Can you help me out here and tell me which locomotive were modified? I have seen the erection cards (AKA equipment diagrams) on Rob Schoenberg's website, and with your permission Rob I would like to download one again for this article too. This is the only evidence I have seen that supports the statements made. I have seen several good photo's that support the contrary and have tried to base my conclusions on photos after 1957 and Th. photo must be of just the right angle to show enough of the roof that under the circumstances there could be no questions. Let me tell you this that there are enough overhead shots of most, but not all, units that you would come to the same conclusion as I have. The APF-20's were not delivered with and did not receive dynamic brakes. But being a careful person, I want to see if anyone has photographic evidence to the contrary. Mr. Volkmer can you check your photos, please? I love all ALCo's and the PA/B were as far as I am concerned some of the most beautiful engines ever produced. A personal favorite. In my research I have found reference to an ALCo nickname as the GREYHOUND. Fitting! But I have also been brought to the conclusion that mechanically that these locomotives were a bucket of bolts. Problematic from the beginning, better at the end, but really just a maintenance hog (some say worst than the ERIE Builts) and many roads parked them waiting for the leases to expire. My article will place my units after they were regeared to dual service, but with a little surprise. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:45:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts(reply) Randy: I'll second Gregg's choices and add the Central Region Northern Division Branches Jan. 1955 Central Region Conemaugh Division Branches Low Grade - Ridgway, Sligo - Brookville Jan. 1953 following Gregg's. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:36:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's One of the interesting aspects of PA's on the PRR is that for 10 cab units there are three different shapes to the coupler openings in the front pilot. Some are squared off. One is shaped like a comma and inverse image on the other side and some are square with a gusset in the lower corner. Witmer said this was due to shop changes over the years but they sure look factory to me. All are easily visible in the PA section of Pennsy Power II. The gusset version is in the diesel roster pictures in the front of the diesel section. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: yaBe Date: Fri, 14 May 99 13:19:38 -0400 From: Jerry I am considering development of a database driven "reverse" eBay auction. The system would be totally free to all users. (The name "yaBe" is "eBay" in reverse.) The "reverse" concept is this: on eBay sellers list items they are selling. But there is no way for a potential buyer to declare "hey, I'm looking for this!" Both Railroadiana and Model Railroad products would be included. It's a piece of cake for me to develop (less than an hour). The question is, would it get used? My initial thoughts: Potential buyer would enter a title, road name (if applicable), description, year (if applicable), category (public tt, employee tt, lantern, china, etc.), scale, etc. All fields would be searchable. Each potential buyer would create their own "account". Using this account, the buyer can not only add new items, but would be able to modify or delete existing records that they created. Your thoughts? Since this is a TANGENT subject matter, please respond off-list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:12:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] BM-60? Hi Guys, Custom Brass of NJ, produced a brass model (HO) of a BM-60. I've been searching thru all of my reference material, and I can't come up with such an animal. There is a pretty good photo of this model, in the reference below. Can anyone shed some light on the subject? I'd be most appreciative. Click here: eBay item 101942400 (Ends 05/16/99, 11:38:49 PDT) - HO BRASS P.R.R. BM-60 MAIL CAR IN BOX Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's Date: Fri, 14 May 99 12:49:10 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/14/99 10:17 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > I love all ALCo's and the PA/B were as far as I am concerned some of the >most beautiful engines ever produced. A personal favorite. In my >research I >have found reference to an ALCo nickname as the GREYHOUND. Fitting! But I >have also been brought to the conclusion that mechanically that these >locomotives were a bucket of bolts. Problematic from the beginning, better >at the end, but really just a maintenance hog (some say worst than the ERIE >Builts) and many roads parked them waiting for the leases to expire. But could they possibly be worse than the Baldwin Centipedes? Baldwin Passenger Sharks didn't fare much better either. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Painted Erie-built photo posted Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:42:40 -0400 Hi All! I just wanted to let the list know that I've posted a photo of a assembled, painted and detailed Erie-built on our web site at http://mc.cyklone.com/eriephot.htm The photo is a little dark, but you can get the general idea. Hope those of you who ordered Eries from Jerry enjoy them. Please let us know your comments on the model once you've had a look at it. Regards all! Pat Lawless Miracle Castings ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:14:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60? George, If I remember correctly, the BM-60 you inquired about was actually a car built for the Long Island Railroad. I don't believe the Pennsy ever had this type car on their roster. Could be wrong though but I never found any phto proof either.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:04:50 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts In message <86256771.00207865.00@ntnotes3.marathon-eap.com>, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes >On a weekend outing with my wife and another couple at an antique mall just >outside of South Bend Indiana I found what is to me the best haul of PRR >memorabilia I have ever found in one location. I purchased 17 track charts and >the May 1, 1945 CT1000 covering the whole PRR! I have been talking to Jerry >about the possibilities of scanning the charts and he has graciously offered >with Keystone Crossings as the location for them. The question I pose to the >group is which one do they want to see first. Here are the choices: Randy, Thanks to you and Jerry for your generosity. As someone who is modelling a layout based on part of the Whitehall Branch (Monogahela Div.) then any chart that showed that part of Pittsburgh would be welcome to me. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Soc. website at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk Views and info of our layouts plus news, construction techniques, members' layouts, fun stuff and loads of links. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:57:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts In a message dated 5/14/99 1:00:44 AM Mountain Daylight Time, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: << Central Region Panhandle Division Branches Jan. 1934 >> This would be my pick. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:44:00 -0400 I believe the PB units had dynamic brake and the A units had trainlines added for dynamic brake but never actually had the grids installed. I believe at one time they were considering putting Woodward governors on them also. Memory is getting dim on such things! ---------- > From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu; NEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu; ELM2@aol.com > Cc: Mksme@aol.com; AlbertSR@aol.com; JFuhrtrain@aol.com; Stuthayer@aol.com; AmtrkCndct@aol.com; ShenangoRS@aol.com; jimsix@ncweb.com; markkerlick@att.net; JWelther@aol.com; STEVEGG1@aol.com; Ederouin@aol.com; RGSPEMKT@aol.com; rljack@pathway.net; CALLOWAYW@aol.com; dbourque@juno.com; LINESWEST@aol.com; eandyj@juno.com; Engrchip@aol.com; peaches@bnis.net > Subject: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's > Date: Friday, May 14, 1999 10:17 AM > > Hey Yuze Gize, > > Some time ago there were I believe at least two post regarding the PRR's > APF-20A/B (PA/B) stating that after being out shopped as dual service > locomotives that the Pennsy installed dynamic brakes back into the units. > Well, I have been preparing my article on the LL P2K units and have found no > evidence of this. Can you help me out here and tell me which locomotive were > modified? I have seen the erection cards (AKA equipment diagrams) on Rob > Schoenberg's website, and with your permission Rob I would like to download > one again for this article too. This is the only evidence I have seen that > supports the statements made. I have seen several good photo's that support > the contrary and have tried to base my conclusions on photos after 1957 and > Th. photo must be of just the right angle to show enough of the roof that > under the circumstances there could be no questions. Let me tell you this > that there are enough overhead shots of most, but not all, units that you > would come to the same conclusion as I have. The APF-20's were not delivered > with and did not receive dynamic brakes. But being a careful person, I want > to see if anyone has photographic evidence to the contrary. Mr. Volkmer can > you check your photos, please? > I love all ALCo's and the PA/B were as far as I am concerned some of the > most beautiful engines ever produced. A personal favorite. In my research I > have found reference to an ALCo nickname as the GREYHOUND. Fitting! But I > have also been brought to the conclusion that mechanically that these > locomotives were a bucket of bolts. Problematic from the beginning, better > at the end, but really just a maintenance hog (some say worst than the ERIE > Builts) and many roads parked them waiting for the leases to expire. > My article will place my units after they were regeared to dual service, > but with a little surprise. > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:40:22 -0400 All three, the PAs the Sharks, and the Erie Builts were dogs, but they each had their own separate illnesses. Altoona works had a plan to completely rebuild the Erie builts and did one unit 9466b by completely rewiring them and getting rid of all those bus bars on the floor etc. About the time they finished the 9466b, the order went in for the GP-30s. Also three sharks were completely converted to Alco 251 engines complete with GE electrical cabinets and control stands. They also became a casualty with the decision to b uy the DL-640s instead. The PAs were traded in on the DL-640s also. Principal problems with the PAs were soft crankshafts and lousy turbos. Bill ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's > Date: Friday, May 14, 1999 12:49 PM > > On 5/14/99 10:17 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > > > I love all ALCo's and the PA/B were as far as I am concerned some of the > >most beautiful engines ever produced. A personal favorite. In my > >research I > >have found reference to an ALCo nickname as the GREYHOUND. Fitting! But I > >have also been brought to the conclusion that mechanically that these > >locomotives were a bucket of bolts. Problematic from the beginning, better > >at the end, but really just a maintenance hog (some say worst than the ERIE > >Builts) and many roads parked them waiting for the leases to expire. > > But could they possibly be worse than the Baldwin Centipedes? Baldwin > Passenger Sharks didn't fare much better either. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:12:27 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Photos on web site. Finally got the last bunch of photos uploaded as mentioned a few days ago: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/frame2.htm Those with frame-challenged browsers would probably be better off going straight to: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/fbpic15.htm .....and working on from there. -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Soc. website at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk Views and info of our layouts plus news, construction techniques, members' layouts, fun stuff and loads of links. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:51:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's In a message dated 5/14/99 12:19:48 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << But could they possibly be worse than the Baldwin Centipedes? >> >From personal observation and anecdotal references, I would have concluded that the difference was that eh AP20s were prone to excess smoke and the Baldwins were prone to leaking oil. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:26:27 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60? I second Gary's assessment. I remember when this discussion first came up when N. J. International issued the model initially and the LIRR was the assumed prototype for the car. I don't think I have ever seen a picture of the actual car but with NJI being based in Hicksville, NY the story seems plausible. Frank Brua doloris mittner wrote: > George, > > If I remember correctly, the BM-60 you inquired about was actually a > car built for the Long Island Railroad. I don't believe the Pennsy ever > had this type car on their roster. Could be wrong though but I never > found any phto proof either.....Gary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 20:12:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's Gregg: In PDY Vol 1 Appendix by Bill Volkmer there is a note that the trainline for dynamics was added in 1952 when the PA's were reclassed from AP20 to AFP20. This note applies to all 10 PA and all 5 PB in the 5750A - 5759A and 5750B - 5758B (even numbers only) series. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:27:58 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: Re: [PRR] BM60 There is a photo of a BM60 being hauled by LIRR DD1 no. 354 "whipping through Kew Gardens with the Jamaica Mail, consisting of a crew rider and RPO cars, bound for Port Jefferson, Montauk, and Greenport" (page 210 of Ron Ziel's *Steel Rails to the Sunrise*). Close inspection of the photo shows TWO BM60's coupled bagg-end to bagg-end, preceded by a round roof commuter coach and followed by another, less easily identified RPO-baggage car. -- Robert Livingston Park Varieties wrote: > > I second Gary's assessment. I remember when this discussion first came up > when > N. J. International issued the model initially and the LIRR was the assumed > prototype > for the car. I don't think I have ever seen a picture of the actual car but > with NJI being > based in Hicksville, NY the story seems plausible. > > Frank Brua > > doloris mittner wrote: > > > George, > > > > If I remember correctly, the BM-60 you inquired about was actually a > > car built for the Long Island Railroad. I don't believe the Pennsy ever > > had this type car on their roster. Could be wrong though but I never > > found any phto proof either.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:19:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Elusive PRR BM-60? This car has given me grief for many years. I've been able to find nothing about the cars as far as whether they were PRR or LI, what numbers were used on them, era and area of operation, etc. I found a diagram and floor plan in Wayners PRR book and not much else. The N&W acquired a few of the cars in 1937 from the PRR and used them as RPO's and later as mail storage cars by sealing over the windows. They used them until quite late. N&W records show them as being built by Bethlehem Steel but have no references to any prior numbers, etc. The Custom Brass car is a beauty, available and reasonably priced. It's a shame there is no more info on the cars that would make them more desirable for SPF's. I've found no photos on the PRR or LI. The knowledgable LI fans I've spoken with have no info either. It seems the only info is during the N&W years. I have several waiting to be painted and I'm certain standard PRR passenger car paint schemes apply....but there's that number thing again! I can tell you this much though.....they look swell painted as N&W! Anyone having any information as to their numbering or service PLEASE email me! Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:40:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Erie-built photo posted In a message dated 5/14/99 1:36:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time, miracle-castings@on.aibn.com writes: << Please let us know your comments on the model once you've had a look at it. >> Looks REAL good. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:44:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] BM60 Hi All, Two references for the BM60 (No Pics): 1) The list of tracing indexes from the PRRT&HS Microfilm collection includes the BM60 in the "Head End" section but with the dashed lines denoting "Not Available". 2) Wayner's "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" has a side view, an end view and a "plan" view on page 3. Some info from drawings: 15'1" mail section. 44'7.875" baggage section. 2'6" mail door w/mail hook. 2 small (maybe 2'?) windows in mail section. 6'0" baggage door. Ventilater over mail section. Sorry but I can't verify any more than that these references exist. Others will have to decide on their accuracy and as to whether or not Pennsy ever built any for themselves. Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:42:56 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] John Wright's work A quick note to say that, in my opinion, this is some of the finest work I have seen. The proportions and atmosphere of the industrial Northeast are captured. The sweeping curve through Franklinsburg, and the use of empty space in juxtoposition to busy detail all speak to me, reminding me of many sights I grew up with along the right of way. My hat's off to ya, John Wright (I also like the tractive effort figures. To me, this is the only way to describe model locomotives). If you are interested in modelling the look of the US industrial landscape and haven't yet clicked through the series of photos, I suggest you do so (URL's listed below). --Robert Livingston John H. Wright wrote: > > Finally got the last bunch of photos uploaded as mentioned a few days > ago: > > http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/frame2.htm > > Those with frame-challenged browsers would probably be better off going > straight to: > > http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/fbpic15.htm .....and working on from > there. > -- > John H. Wright > > Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Soc. website at: > http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk > Views and info of our layouts plus news, construction techniques, members' > layouts, fun stuff and loads of links. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:40:40 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] BM60 Howdy All: Just a quick browse through my oldest "Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" of 1952, under PRR, the following cars are listed: 5403, 5406, 5407 & 5412 43' baggage, 15' mail, 64'6" over buffers 5435 & 5437 baggage 38', mail 20', 64'6" over buffers 5438 & 5439 baggage 43'. mail 15', 64'6" over buffers These cars are listed as AAR type BM The Long Island list two cars 737 and 738 baggage 45', mail 15', 63'7" over buffers also listed as AAR type BM cos wsbcos.com Ron Dugas wrote: > Hi All, > > Two references for the BM60 (No Pics): > > 1) The list of tracing indexes from the PRRT&HS Microfilm collection > includes the BM60 in the "Head End" section but with the dashed lines > denoting "Not Available". > > 2) Wayner's "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" has > a side view, an end view and a "plan" view on page 3. > Some info from drawings: > 15'1" mail section. > 44'7.875" baggage section. > 2'6" mail door w/mail hook. > 2 small (maybe 2'?) windows in mail section. > 6'0" baggage door. > Ventilater over mail section. > > Sorry but I can't verify any more than that these references exist. Others > will have to decide on their accuracy and as to whether or not Pennsy ever > built any for themselves. > > Ron. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] John Wright's work Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:19:13 -0400 >A quick note to say that, in my opinion, this is some of the finest >work I have seen. The proportions and atmosphere of the industrial >Northeast are captured. I would also like to echo Robert's comments about John Wright. The photos that have been recently posted by John have helped me to solve quite a few difficult scenery situations that I had put myself into while constructing my own layout. Thank you, John. There's nothing better than a cluttered, urban scene to create that PRR look. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:53:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's In a message herzog@icanect.net writes: << I believe the PB units had dynamic brake and the A units had trainlines added for dynamic brake but never actually had the grids installed. I believe at one time they were considering putting Woodward governors on them also. Memory is getting dim on such things! >> Bill, Again, my research doesn't support this. Post 1952 (when they were regeared) and more so the post 1954 photo's (after the turbo charges were changed out) still show no evidence of dynamics being added even though they did have the "joint" made from on the "dynamic brake loop" from MU connection to MU connection. I have gone through piles of photo's and when I saw the post sometime back saying that they had dynamic brakes added I had to go backwards and check again. This much I know for sure, the two units I have elected to replicate in scale did not have dynamic brakes. They will represent units after 1957, which in my modeling is fairly late, but should look good with a snapper set on the point. Greg Martin watching from LINES way out WEST ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR clearance car Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:07:30 -0400 >Would like to let all here who are interested in the PRR clearance car know >that it still exists. It's located in Geigertown Pa. with a collection of >trolleys, Rdg cabooses and other assorted rr items. It's owned by the Shirley >family who own a feed/hardware store across the street from the equiptment. >The last time I saw it which was a few years ago it was Tuscan Red. > >Ken McCorry I just got back from checking this car out as I only live about five miles away. It is yellow with a black roof and underbody and has about a six foot long "Pennsylvania" hand lettered in black on the letterboard. The car is in pretty good shape considering its neglect. The "fingers" appear to be nothing more than just that. They are hinged where they connect to the carbody and would seem to just push back when contacting something. The ends of the fingers are merely flattened. No elaborate sensing devices of any kind. Perhaps the hinge mechanism connects to something inside the car, but I couldn't see anything from the outside. Obviously, another visit is necessary. I'll take camera and tape measure for sure. I would also try to get permission from the owners to look inside. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:58:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's ALCo PA/B's In a message NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << One of the interesting aspects of PA's on the PRR is that for 10 cab units there are three different shapes to the coupler openings in the front pilot. Some are squared off. One is shaped like a comma and inverse image on the other side and some are square with a gusset in the lower corner. Witmer said this was due to shop changes over the years but they sure look factory to me. All are easily visible in the PA section of Pennsy Power II. The gusset version is in the diesel roster pictures in the front of the diesel section. >> Guys, The research I have done shows the units to have been delivered with the flush doors unlike the FA/B-2's having the extended "bucktoothed" coupler covers. The reworking of the pilots created several different openings configuration. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:03:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR clearance car In a message dated 5/15/99 3:43:32 PM Central Daylight Time, jbreon@email.msn.com writes: << The "fingers" appear to be nothing more than just that. They are hinged where they connect to the carbody and would seem to just push back when contacting something. The ends of the fingers are merely flattened. No elaborate sensing devices of any kind. Perhaps the hinge mechanism connects >> It may be that they operate as simply as you indicate---someone else on the list so indicated. That may be all that is needed. In the power transformer business, we had to get clearances all the way to destination before shipping and it was a go-no go thing. If we sent a profile of the product and it didn't fit in one aspect that was it, unless we could somehow remove some item and there was no other way to get the transformer there. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 19:45:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gondolas with car/truck frames I grew up next to the PRR Schuylkill branch in the 50's and early 60's. I remember a train going south bound most every night with car or truck frames like that shown on page 45 of the PRR Color Guide to F & P equipment, volume 1. Does anyone know where this train originated and where was the final destination? Also, does anyone make an HO model of the frame load? Thanks, Joel Holubec ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis Schaller" Subject: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:25:48 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01BE9F11.1E707720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a few questions. First did PRR have any PA's in Brunswick Green = or were they all in Tuscan? Also were they all 5 stripe (Gold? or = Yellow?) or did they get a chance to do them in single stripe before = they traded them back in? Second question. Did PRR "EVER" have any dome cars, I heard they didn't = have any because of tunnel clearances? Thanks All. ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01BE9F11.1E707720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a few questions.  First did PRR have any = PA's in=20 Brunswick Green or were they all in Tuscan?  Also were they all 5 = stripe=20 (Gold? or Yellow?) or did they get a chance to do them in single stripe = before=20 they traded them back in?
 
Second question.  Did PRR "EVER" have any dome = cars, I=20 heard they didn't have any because of tunnel clearances?
 
Thanks All.
------=_NextPart_000_0091_01BE9F11.1E707720-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:59:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars In a message dated 5/15/99 8:50:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lewis@knology.net writes: > I have a few questions. First did PRR have any PA's in Brunswick Green or > were they all in Tuscan? Also were they all 5 stripe (Gold? or Yellow?) or > did they get a chance to do them in single stripe before they traded them > back in? > > Second question. Did PRR "EVER" have any dome cars, I heard they didn't > have any because of tunnel clearances? > The PA/B's were delivered in DGLE five stripe. A few were repainted into DGLE single stripe follow reclassification in 1952. A single locomotive whose number escapes me at the moment was painted in Tuscan 5 stripe. The PRR never had any dome cars. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 21:52:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Lewis and All, Yes, Pennsy did have some PA-1's (APF20's) that got the single narrow stripe paint scheme. I have identified at least 2 units that finished their career in single narrow stripes 5757 and 5758. All PA/B-1's began their careers in DGLE and 5 gold leaf stripes. Then in 1954 most units got repainted into Tuscan Red with 5 imitation gold stripes (PRR Buff) and then at least 2 units again repainted into single narrow stripes. One B unit (5758B) was repainted into Tuscan Red single broad stripe. There were no B units repainted into single narrow stripe. Regardless, they did continue to serve as dual service locomotives and there are photo's as late as 1959 of APF20's in passenger service but by this time it was the exception and no the rule. And I have even seen a photo of two DGLE (Brunswick Green) in single narrow stripes running like Greyhounds in passenger service. To answer your question on dome cars, no Pennsy did not operate any, there was several clearance issues including tunnels. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST In a message lewis@knology.net writes: << I have a few questions. First did PRR have any PA's in Brunswick Green or were they all in Tuscan? Also were they all 5 stripe (Gold? or Yellow?) or did they get a chance to do them in single stripe before they traded them back in? Second question. Did PRR "EVER" have any dome cars, I heard they didn't have any because of tunnel clearances? Thanks All. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:03:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Opps Apologies to all. After I hit the send button I realized I had reversed the DGLE single stripe and the Tuscan 5 stripe information. There were many 5 stripe Tuscan copies. But only 1 single stripe that I have seen documented. Gregg is preparing an article on the PA's perhaps he has documented more single stripes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:02:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] PENNSY DOMES Folks, As regards an inquiry as to dome cars on the Pennsy: yes and no, or no and yes, so to speak. While the Pennsy never owned any dome cars , they did actually operate on the PRR for a spell. The South Wind operated leased NP dome sleepers over the Pennsy from Chicago to louisville during part of the 1960's, during the winter season, when the cars were excess to North Coast Limited needs.If anyone has any interest, I'll dig out Dorin's book on Domeliners for the actual dates. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:01:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] altoona area industries i posted this question to these lists a while back, and didnt receive much of a response. i decided to try again after posting it to my list, cr-nsmodelers@onelist.com. can anyone give me the names of industries served by CR between altoona and cresson (PA)? if possible, also include what kind of traffic the industries generate and how often they are switched. i know of untion tank car and altoona pipe and steel in altoona, as well as a lumberyard between cresson and gallitzin that is served by rail, but i dont know any other industries along the mail line or along the cove secondary. if anyone can help me out here, it would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance, sean mcdonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis Schaller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PENNSY DOMES Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:41:31 -0400 So were these domes in NP or PRR livery? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 11:02 PM Subject: [PRR] PENNSY DOMES > Folks, > As regards an inquiry as to dome cars on the Pennsy: yes and no, or no and > yes, so to speak. While the Pennsy never owned any dome cars , they did > actually operate on the PRR for a spell. The South Wind operated leased NP > dome sleepers over the Pennsy from Chicago to louisville during part of the > 1960's, during the winter season, when the cars were excess to North Coast > Limited needs.If anyone has any interest, I'll dig out Dorin's book on > Domeliners for the actual dates. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 00:13:10 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Lewis Schaller wrote: > >Did PRR "EVER" have any dome cars, I heard they > didn't have any because of tunnel clearances? > Although PRR didn't own any domes, the railroad regularly operated domes on the Chicago-Florida South Wind, Trains 90 and 93, during the winter seasons of the early- to mid-1960s. These were Northern Pacific 4-roomette, 4-duplex, 4-double bedroom sleeper-domes that were not needed on NP's Chicago-Seattle North Coast Limited when the seasonal summer patronage on that run abated. PRR's South Wind ran Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville via PRR, then L&N to Montgomery, Ala., then Atlantic Coast Line/Seaboard Air Line to Miami. You can find this in the equipment lists for any winter-season Official Guide published during that time. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Acts. 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR Domes From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 00:00:39 EDT I responded to Lewis one on one with a no re the domes. Now I hear they did run some in Lines West country. I attributed the no to catenary as much as tunnels. The safety problem of having a high voltage wire come down on a dome full of people seems obvious to me. However, would domes other wise have been a clearance problem? They don't seem very high by today's standards. Also, was the PRR catenary the reason the B&O Capital Limited domes were so low? Rode them once and was disappointed you could not see over the roof while seated. A bummer for rail fans! Got chased out of the dome as we approached Washington Union Station. Did get to ride in the obs as the conductor ran the brakes while backing into the station. Almost as good as dome ride. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 00:41:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondolas with car/truck frames The frames came from Dana Corp. in Reading . They still ship frames for pickup/SUV types today on CR. The loads have been offered in the past just the frames were included you had to make up the racks and holddowns yourself. If I can find the name I'll post it here. Today they use 89' flats back then they used both flats and gons to haul the frames. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 02:02:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PENNSY DOMES In a message dated 5/15/99 11:10:15 PM Central Daylight Time, lewis@knology.net writes: << So were these domes in NP or PRR livery? >> NP. By contrast, I believe the IC leased their domes (not positive) but painted them in IC colors. However, IC tended to run very well matched trains. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 07:30:20 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondolas with car/truck frames Car frames were made by J.J.M. Railroad Enterprises. I don't know if they are still in bsiness or not. Last address I have is PO Box 1273, Elgin, IL 60121 KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > The frames came from Dana Corp. in Reading . They still ship frames for > pickup/SUV types today on CR. The loads have been offered in the past just > the frames were included you had to make up the racks and holddowns yourself. > If I can find the name I'll post it here. Today they use 89' flats back then > they used both flats and gons to haul the frames. Ken McCorry > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 08:44:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondolas with car/truck frames The frame loads you saw were from Parrish Pressed Steel in Reading, PA., today it is called the DANA Corp.. They are still making frames for the truck industry and are being shipped via Conrail to the GM truck/SUV plants around the nation. In the PRR days the shipments were split between the PRR and Reading. As both railroads served the facility in Reading, PA.. You can see video tape of these loads in Digital Image Works: Pennsy Steam & Electric Years Vol II. Cheers Brad C. Bower Sr. Editor Digital Image Works ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:27:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gondolas with car/truck frames In a message dated 5/16/99 6:47:27 AM Central Daylight Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << Car frames were made by J.J.M. Railroad Enterprises. I don't know if they are still in bsiness or not. Last address I have is PO Box 1273, Elgin, IL 60121 >> Don;t know if they are still being manufactured but Dreamer's Hobbies (http://www.execpc.com/~dreamers) here in Milwaukee most likely still has several kits left. I also vaguely remember seeing some at Des Plaines Hobbies in Illinois (email dphobbies@earthlink.net). Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:37:09 -0400 From: Dave McNeil Subject: [PRR] RE:Car and Truck frames Hi Gang, JOELPRR Requested info on the car frames. I have 2 kit in the back closet, each makes up into 80 automobile frames suitable for a gondola or flat car load. They were manufactured by: J.J.M Railroad Enterprises, P.O. Box 1273, Elgin IL, 60121. I believe they were once carried in the Walthers Catalog, price was $7.95. Instructions are very good with detailed drawings and photos. Don't know if they still available, but they do make up into a nice looking load. Regards, Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:06:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] BM-60 I can't believe it!!! With all the times I've asked for information on this car and the recent discussions about them what should happen.....I purchased the latest Locomotive Quarterly, Spring 1999 Vol XXII #3, and there on page 61 appears a Macon, Dublin & Savannah passenger train with a BM-60 in the consist! It's obviously one of the cars but where did it come from? Pennsy, Long Island or N&W? Another question to ponder! It's a good broad side shot but, unfortunately, from a distance. They certainly were handsome cars! Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:20:29 PDT > To answer your question on dome cars, no Pennsy did not operate any, >there >was several clearance issues including tunnels. ________________________________ To say nothing about overhead wires east of Harrisburg. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:39:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Domes From: Patrick M Egan Full height domes were 15 1/2 feet high, and I am sure not as high as a 14 1/2 foot high trailer on a flat car with it's deck about 3 feet from the rail. B&O operated domes under wire into Washington Union Station. Admittedly the B&O domes were low, but if the B&O could do it, Pennsy shouldn't have had a problem, except maybe into New York. I put the lack of domes on the Pennsy and a lot of other roads to the the cost of the cars. Besides, can you imagine how long the windows would stay clean? Pat Egan On Sun, 16 May 1999 00:00:39 EDT Fred G Rea writes: >I responded to Lewis one on one with a no re the domes. Now I hear >they did run some in Lines West country. I attributed the no to >catenary as much as tunnels. The safety problem of having a high >voltage wire come down on a dome full of people seems obvious to me. > >However, would domes other wise have been a clearance problem? They >don't seem very high by today's standards. Also, was the PRR catenary >the reason the B&O Capital Limited domes were so low? Rode them once >and was disappointed you could not see over the roof while seated. A >bummer for rail fans! Got chased out of the dome as we approached >Washington Union Station. Did get to ride in the obs as the conductor >ran the brakes while backing into the station. Almost as good as dome >ride. > >Fred Rea >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get >completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 16:34:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Gondolas with car/truck frames In a message dated 5/16/99 10:27:38 AM Central Daylight Time, I wrote << In a message dated 5/16/99 6:47:27 AM Central Daylight Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << Car frames were made by J.J.M. Railroad Enterprises. I don't know if they are still in bsiness or not. Last address I have is PO Box 1273, Elgin, IL 60121 >> Don;t know if they are still being manufactured but Dreamer's Hobbies (http://www.execpc.com/~dreamers) here in Milwaukee most likely still has several kits left. I also vaguely remember seeing some at Des Plaines Hobbies in Illinois (email dphobbies@earthlink.net). >> Dreamers is temporatily out, but the product is still available from JJM and they will reorder; your local dealer can also do so, but there is a minimum stocking order, as is common. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Gondolas with car/truck frames Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 17:41:23 -0500 I ordered mine direct from J.J.M. Railroad Enterprises and there was no minimum order. Ordered 2 kits and liked them so much I ordered 2 more. The instructions that come with the kits show how to make up either gondola loads stacked upright at an angle (you must build the bracing out of styrene or stripwood per the instructions, materials not included) or flat car loads with the frames stacked horizontially on the flat (again you must make up some bracing per the instructions). I personally believe the gondola loads look the best, but admit the flat car loads are easier to build. I built 2 of each and am very pleased with their appearance. My 0.02 cents, Bill Laird -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 4:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Gondolas with car/truck frames >In a message dated 5/16/99 10:27:38 AM Central Daylight Time, I wrote > ><< In a message dated 5/16/99 6:47:27 AM Central Daylight Time, >parkvarieties@provide.net writes: > > << Car frames were made by J.J.M. Railroad Enterprises. I don't know if >they are > still in > bsiness or not. Last address I have is PO Box 1273, Elgin, IL 60121 >> > > Don;t know if they are still being manufactured but Dreamer's Hobbies >(http://www.execpc.com/~dreamers) here in Milwaukee most likely still has >several kits left. I also vaguely remember seeing some at Des Plaines Hobbies >in Illinois (email dphobbies@earthlink.net). >> > >Dreamers is temporatily out, but the product is still available from JJM and >they will reorder; your local dealer can also do so, but there is a minimum >stocking order, as is common. > >Bob Zoeller > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:18:39 -0400 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] LIRR P54 subclasses Hello, Can anyone out there enlighten me as to the differences between P54,P54a,P54b and P54d? Thanks in advance. Elliot ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:38:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PENNSY DOMES From: Patrick M Egan This brings up questions. In the sixties, when NP let the Illinois Central use one of their 4-4-4 sleeper domes, the IC painted the dome IC brown and orange, and lent the NP an 11 bedroom sleeper, which was painted in the NP Raymond Loewy green scheme. I presume the Pennsy borrowed a sleeper dome, as the coach domes were needed. I'm pretty sure the domes stayed in the Loewy colors, rather then being painted Tuscan, but is there any evidence of the Pennsy lending the NP a sleeper or any other type of car? The only picture I recall of a Pennsy car on the NP showed a W-3 Mikado coupled to a Pennsy Obs, which by definition makes it earlier than 1/18/58, and not the situation in question. Pat Egan (no web access) On Sat, 15 May 1999 23:02:32 EDT BPX29@aol.com writes: >Folks, >As regards an inquiry as to dome cars on the Pennsy: yes and no, or no >and >yes, so to speak. While the Pennsy never owned any dome cars , they >did >actually operate on the PRR for a spell. The South Wind operated >leased NP >dome sleepers over the Pennsy from Chicago to louisville during part >of the >1960's, during the winter season, when the cars were excess to North >Coast >Limited needs.If anyone has any interest, I'll dig out Dorin's book on > >Domeliners for the actual dates. >Regards, >Barry Peltier > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] PENNSY DOMES Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:37:06 PDT >So were these domes in NP or PRR livery? NP. These were off the North Coast limited, and carried sublettering for SP&S, and CB&Q. Many different colors of cars could be seen in "The Southwind"--Pennsy, ACL/SCL, and others. But the single dome was always NP, at least it was those times I saw it run through Louisville. Andrew Harmantas, Artist. Illustrator, Lecturer, World Traveler, and Bum _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Domes Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:31:51 PDT Also, was the PRR catenary >the reason the B&O Capital Limited domes were so low? Not necessarily. I think it was for clearances on the rest of the system. Got chased out of the dome as we approached Washington >Union Station. Exactly. Timetables said no one could occupy the dome east of Silver Spring. Reason: PRR catenary. Andrew Harmantas, SPF down here near C&O Milepsot FM Zero. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:33:46 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: Re: [PRR] LIRR MP54 subclasses Elliot, >From Wayner's PRR diagram book, 1981 edition: MP54A1: seats 80, lengthwise seats at ends, no toilet, no pantograph (but motor is mentioned; third rail only?) MP54E6: seats 72, pantograph, no floor plan MP54, MP54D, MP54T, MP54E1, MP54E2: seats 72, all transverse seating, toilet ("saloon") in one corner. The diagram does not say what distinguishes the various types. >From Wayner's PRR diagram book, 1969 edition: Floor plan of MP54E6 as above: "General Toilet" in one corner, seats 72, all transverse seating. Now, General Toilet (the thing, not the military guy) encloses a switchboard and a regulator/transformer cabinet as well as the head. There were 50 cars of this type, numbers 409-458. Obviously the LIRR used other varieties of MP54. The above cars are clerestoried. The LIRR also had arch roof MP-54s, subclass designation unknown (to me). -- Robert Livingston Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk wrote: > > Hello, > Can anyone out there enlighten me as to the differences between > P54,P54a,P54b and P54d? > > Thanks in advance. > > Elliot ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:51:33 -0700 From: "Louis D. Fols" Subject: [PRR] P-RSL Would like to hear from any P-RSL fans. Lou ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:06:41 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Andrew Harmantas wrote: > > > To answer your question on dome cars, no Pennsy did not operate any, > >there > >was several clearance issues including tunnels. > ________________________________ > To say nothing about overhead wires east of Harrisburg. > Greetings to Jerry, Andrew and the list: I have to wonder if this really was the *main* problem. According to what I've heard over the years, the limitation was primarily the clearance in the Hudson Tunnels leading to Penn Station, which were said by some to be such [help from any RDG fans here, please?] that even standard Reading Philadelphia MU commuter cars would not fit. On several occasions, I've ridden Conrail dome car 55 (ex-Santa Fe) east of Harrisburg under the wires and nobody from CR ever showed the slightest concern about a carful of people being up in the second level of that car, which is not a low-profile car like the B&O's cars were. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 27:8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 17:17:26 PDT If that is the case, did the pans on G's depress inside the tunnels? I have never considered that. I spoke with some Pennsy operating people in the late 50's when I used to hang out on the property (before they got uppity and escorted interlopers to the nearest exit), and the subject of no Pennsy domes came up. Memory is vague, but I think it was Pennsy's bedrock fiscal conservatism that made them exclude such things. As far as I can tell, the Pennsy was never known for lavishing money on anything, counting every penny. Andrew h, running to the library to check out photos of G's exiting the Hudson River tubes. _____________________________________________________ > To answer your question on dome cars, no Pennsy did not operate any,therewas several clearance issues including tunnels. > > ________________________________ > > To say nothing about overhead wires east of Harrisburg. _____________________________________ >I have to wonder if this really was the *main* problem. According to >what I've heard over the years, the limitation was primarily the >clearance in the Hudson Tunnels leading to Penn Station, which were said >by some to be such [help from any RDG fans here, please?] that even >standard Reading Philadelphia MU commuter cars would not fit. On several >occasions, I've ridden Conrail dome car 55 (ex-Santa Fe) east of >Harrisburg under the wires and nobody from CR ever showed the slightest >concern about a carful of people being up in the second level of that >car, which is not a low-profile car like the B&O's cars were. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:14:26 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Andrew Harmantas wrote: > > If that is the case, did the pans on G's depress inside the tunnels? > Yes, there and at numerous other locations where the wires were low -- trolley wire height varied quite a bit from place to place for various reasons (recall photos of Gs at Army-Navy with very high stretched-up pantographs). Check on p. 274 of Pennsy Power I for a view of a P5 coming of the tunnel from Penn Station and note how squashed the pantograph appears, then look to the right side of the photo and see how little clearance there is between the coach roof and the top of the portal. Dan C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:44:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PENNSY DOMES Is my mind slip[ping, or was their a discussion of PRR dome cars on the California Zephyr. The end of the cars had a small keystone on them and no CB&Q. Some member even supplied the name of the cars. Again I might have been dreaming but I doubt it. Joe O'Gara ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR Domes From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:04:21 EDT When I got chased out of the B&O domes and when I contemplate PRR domes now, the cat problems seems to be one of safety in the event of a broken piece of the overhead system puncturing the glass and a passenger. Now 25cy high voltage would add to the disaster if this happened. I do not know the height of the contact wire vs the domes (B&O or the ones PRR did not use) , but I suspect they would clear with no problem under normal circumstances. Dan's experience in a Conrail dome might have been ignored as it was not carrying paying public. As for the Hudson tunnels, someone ought to have a loading gauge for them. Or there is that clearance car. I wonder if we could.......never mind! I do have to agree that, in spite of a few luxury trains, PRR was not one to bask its passengers in luxury and non revenue space. Those that suspect frugality may have the best case. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:06:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars In a message dated 5/16/99 7:49:59 PM EST, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: << As far as I can tell, the Pennsy was never known for lavishing money on anything, counting every penny. >> according to at least one ex Pennsy employee this included buying eraserless pencils and requiring employees to requisition erasers separately Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:09:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR] PENNSY DOMES - CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR Pennsy did contribute one car to the CZ - "Silver Rapids" but it was a sleeper, not a dome Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:51:57 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] P-RSL Count me among the fans. My cousin used to work for the PRSL a couple of summers while off from college--many, many moons ago. Chuck Friedlein Louis D. Fols wrote: > > Would like to hear from any P-RSL fans. > Lou > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:49:56 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Greetings, While I can't say for sure about the Hudson River tunnels, but under most bridges (especially the very old stone bridges dating formthe 1700s & 1800s) and covered stations, like 30th Street in Philly, the pans were depressed to some degree. 30th street is especially noticeable as they were almost to the point of lock-down. It would stand to reason that the H.R. tunnels would require some depression. Someone asked if the PRR ever painted a loaner dome car in Tuscan--Ive never found any evidence or even hint of it either in pictures of in text. Chuck Friedlein Andrew Harmantas wrote: > > If that is the case, did the pans on G's depress inside the tunnels? > > I have never considered that. I spoke with some Pennsy operating people in the late 50's when I used to hang out on the property (before they got uppity and escorted interlopers to the nearest exit), and the subject of no Pennsy domes came up. Memory is vague, but I think it was Pennsy's bedrock fiscal conservatism that made them exclude such things. As far as I can tell, the Pennsy was never known for lavishing money on anything, counting every penny. > > Andrew h, running to the library to check out photos of G's exiting the Hudson River tubes. > _____________________________________________________ > > > To answer your question on dome cars, no Pennsy did not operate any,therewas several clearance issues including tunnels. > > > ________________________________ > > > To say nothing about overhead wires east of Harrisburg. > _____________________________________ > >I have to wonder if this really was the *main* problem. According to > >what I've heard over the years, the limitation was primarily the > >clearance in the Hudson Tunnels leading to Penn Station, which were said > >by some to be such [help from any RDG fans here, please?] that even > >standard Reading Philadelphia MU commuter cars would not fit. On several > >occasions, I've ridden Conrail dome car 55 (ex-Santa Fe) east of > >Harrisburg under the wires and nobody from CR ever showed the slightest > >concern about a carful of people being up in the second level of that > >car, which is not a low-profile car like the B&O's cars were. > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:45:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Domes??? The B&O domes were very low as far as domes go. However if the B&O could do it doesn't necessarily mean the Pennsy could operate them. The B&P tunnel just south of the Baltimore passenger station was and still is an incredibly tight fit for anything. They had to lower the tracks to get stacks through in recent times. That tunnel alone would have been reason enough for the Pennsy to not operate domes on the NY to DC route. They would have looked great in PRR livery though! It's a shame they didn't offer them on some of the Chicago or St. Louis trains at least as far as Harrisburg....giving clearances. I'm not familiar with those routes. Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:02:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars In a message dated 5/16/99 6:51:14 PM EST, dan@cwix.com writes: << On several occasions, I've ridden Conrail dome car 55 (ex-Santa Fe) east of Harrisburg under the wires >> DUMB QUESTION - Were the wires "raised" at some time, post Pennsy, to provide better clearances for stack trains, etc. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Sun, 16 May 99 21:35:04 EST Subject: [PRR] RE: Purple Emporer Dear PRR Gang: In regards to Purple Emporer grapes, are they used in wine making? Were there any vineyards or wineries in western New York state? If the train was name after the grapes, it could have it been that a significant portion (or block) of the train may have been devoted to grapes. The reason why I mention wine making is the western New York state is basically the same latitude as southwestern Michigan which is known for its vineyards and wineries. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:39:22 -0400 (EDT) > << On several occasions, I've ridden Conrail dome car 55 (ex-Santa Fe) east of > Harrisburg under the wires >> > > DUMB QUESTION - Were the wires "raised" at some time, post Pennsy, to provide > better clearances for stack trains, etc. The _Atlas of Pennsylvania_, published as a cooperative effort among several universities, shows high-clearance routes through the state. Electrified PRR routes are not among them. I'd think this would be a horrendously expensive task. The only reason (besides liability) that Conrail pulled down its wire is that _it_ got paid: the copper was worth more than the labor. And besides, as we all know with our own layouts, destruction is much easier than construction. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Andrew Harmantas scrivit: > > If that is the case, did the pans on G's depress inside the tunnels? > > I have never considered that. I spoke with some Pennsy operating people > in the late 50's when I used to hang out on the property (before they got > uppity and escorted interlopers to the nearest exit), and the subject of > no Pennsy domes came up. Memory is vague, but I think it was Pennsy's > bedrock fiscal conservatism that made them exclude such things. As far > as I can tell, the Pennsy was never known for lavishing money on anything, > counting every penny. > Andrew h, running to the library to check out photos of G's exiting the Hudson River tubes. There were special rules for the GG1 because, as I heard it, the wire was so low that the pantograph sensing mechanism would think the intention was for the pantograph to be brought all the way down and would pull it away from the wire. I specifically recall special instructions in the Amtrak timetable stating that a special maneuver was required on the part of the engineman before entering the tunnels, so that the pans would not drop. I've scanned my 1967 PRR Eastern Region special instructions, but a quick perusal does not cause anything to jump out at me. I'll have to go through it more carefully. There is a whole heck of a lot of stuff in there, though, under Electrical Operation (S.I. 1167), Overhead Clearance (S.I. 1163). It's conceivable that this was in the Electrical Operating Instructions of the era, which I don't have easily at hand here at work. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Domes Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Andrew Harmantas scrivit: > > Also, was the PRR catenary > > the reason the B&O Capital Limited domes were so low? > Not necessarily. I think it was for clearances on the rest of the system. > Got chased out of the dome as we approached Washington Union Station. > Exactly. Timetables said no one could occupy the dome east of Silver > Spring. Reason: PRR catenary. Andrew, are you certain about that, and that it was not for ticket control purposes? Now that the _Capitol_ has Superliner equipment, the 'dome car' is of exactly the same height as the rest of the cars. On my last trip that way on the train, I was standing behind the conductor on the last car -- the car my sleeper was in -- as we backed into Union Station under a heavy mist. There seemed to be no rule against him standing there, with an open door, holding the soaking-wet air hose, watching our backing move, the catenary *quite* close overhead. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Purple Emporer Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:42:23 -0400 (EDT) > In regards to Purple Emporer grapes, are they used in wine making? Were > there any vineyards or wineries in western New York state? If the train > was name after the grapes, it could have it been that a significant > portion (or block) of the train may have been devoted to grapes. > The reason why I mention wine making is the western New York state is > basically the same latitude as southwestern Michigan which is known for > its vineyards and wineries. The Finger Lakes region of New York is well known for winemaking, though the California wines are, as a rule, much better. The Elmira Branch went right through this area, and the Rochester main approached it, but that was it for PRR. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:44:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Catenary Clearances (was PRR PA's and Dome cars) Andrew asked: >If that is the case, did the pans on G's depress inside the tunnels? and Dick Ross asked: >DUMB QUESTION - Were the wires "raised" at some time, post Pennsy, to provide > better clearances for stack trains, etc. Hi all, I usually stay out of this discussion, as the last time I offered up an opinion, no-one seemed inclined to believe i t. However, I suggest that y'all take a look at both photographs and specs for the electrified territories... What you will find is that the clearance issues esisted BEFORE electrification occurred, as many of the tunnels and bridges were built around 1900. Pantographs had a large range of motion to compensate for variations in clearance, including nearly "locked down" such as in the Hudson River tunnels. Electrification required that many tunnels be excavated another 2-3 feet to allow room for the catenary. At their normal extension, there was plenty of room underneath the wires for TOFC cars and dome cars (and even stack trains!). Areas of minimal clearances may have been altered additionally in recent years, but the "normal" and "max" height above the railhead for the catenary has not been increased. The issues with dome cars are probably 2 fold...minimal clearances in many areas as a result of the age of the line, and safety...while not a frequent occurance, the wires did get pulled down onto the trains occaisionally, and having windows up there, just doesn't seem like a bright idea! Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:05:29 -0400 For GOD SAKES MAN.... Don't you know that the reason for eraserless pencils was because Pennsy men NEVER MADE ANY MISTAKES. People in other walks of life made many mistakes, and merely shrugged them off as "Hell, thats why they put erasers on pencils." Pennsy taught us to ALWAYS DO THINGS RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. (And we DID. Well, sort of.) ---------- > From: VVA249@aol.com > To: frisco484@hotmail.com; dan@cwix.com > Cc: TGREGMRTN@aol.com; lewis@knology.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu; NEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars > Date: Monday, May 17, 1999 1:06 AM > > In a message dated 5/16/99 7:49:59 PM EST, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: > > << As far as I can tell, the Pennsy was never known for lavishing money on > anything, counting every penny. >> > > according to at least one ex Pennsy employee this included buying eraserless > pencils and requiring employees to requisition erasers separately > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:47:17 -0400 Correction, it was the 5756B, not 5758B that got the single stripe Tuscan with the shadowed Keystones paint job. The A units were all stored in 1958 and the B units continued to operate between Baltimore and Harrisburg. Then in late 1958 the A units were put back into service, first on the PRSL and then out of Cresson with coal trains. Their lack of db made it imperative that they have some FAs in the consist coming down the mountain into Altoona. ---------- > From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com > To: lewis@knology.net > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu; NEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars > Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 9:52 PM > > Lewis and All, > > Yes, Pennsy did have some PA-1's (APF20's) that got the single narrow stripe > paint scheme. I have identified at least 2 units that finished their career > in single narrow stripes 5757 and 5758. All PA/B-1's began their careers in > DGLE and 5 gold leaf stripes. Then in 1954 most units got repainted into > Tuscan Red with 5 imitation gold stripes (PRR Buff) and then at least 2 units > again repainted into single narrow stripes. One B unit (5758B) was repainted > into Tuscan Red single broad stripe. There were no B units repainted into > single narrow stripe. Regardless, they did continue to serve as dual service > locomotives and there are photo's as late as 1959 of APF20's in passenger > service but by this time it was the exception and no the rule. And I have > even seen a photo of two DGLE (Brunswick Green) in single narrow stripes > running like Greyhounds in passenger service. > To answer your question on dome cars, no Pennsy did not operate any, there > was several clearance issues including tunnels. > > Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST > > In a message lewis@knology.net writes: > > << I have a few questions. First did PRR have any PA's in Brunswick Green or > were they all in Tuscan? Also were they all 5 stripe (Gold? or Yellow?) or > did they get a chance to do them in single stripe before they traded them > back in? > > Second question. Did PRR "EVER" have any dome cars, I heard they didn't > have any because of tunnel clearances? > > Thanks All. >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondolas with car/truck frames Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:42:01 -0400 Frames were made at a place called Parish Steel., but I don't lknow where theywere located. Destination was probably Metuchen, Nj (GM) or Newport Del, (Chrysler). ---------- > From: JOELPRR@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Gondolas with car/truck frames > Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 7:45 PM > > I grew up next to the PRR Schuylkill branch in the 50's and early 60's. I > remember a train going south bound most every night with car or truck frames > like that shown on page 45 of the PRR Color Guide to F & P equipment, volume > 1. Does anyone know where this train originated and where was the final > destination? Also, does anyone make an HO model of the frame load? > > Thanks, > Joel Holubec > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re:Pantograph Heights in New York Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:55:19 -0400 Check out the photo at the top of Page 11 in Pennsy Electric Years and I think you will see why no dome cars were able to operate into New York. THe pantograph is actually UP on this locomotive! Bill V. ---------- > From: Dan Cupper > To: Andrew Harmantas > Cc: TGREGMRTN@aol.com; lewis@knology.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu; NEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars > Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 11:14 PM > > Andrew Harmantas wrote: > > > > If that is the case, did the pans on G's depress inside the tunnels? > > > > Yes, there and at numerous other locations where the wires were low -- > trolley wire height varied quite a bit from place to place for various > reasons (recall photos of Gs at Army-Navy with very high stretched-up > pantographs). Check on p. 274 of Pennsy Power I for a view of a P5 > coming of the tunnel from Penn Station and note how squashed the > pantograph appears, then look to the right side of the photo and see how > little clearance there is between the coach roof and the top of the > portal. > > Dan C. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:38:28 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Purple Emporer Also the Westfield/Dunkirk area of WNY on Lake Erie was the home of Welch's Grape juice and still has a sizable plant there altho I dont think it is still the Headquarters. This area was served by the PRR as well On Mon, 17 May 1999, Mark Bej wrote: >> In regards to Purple Emporer grapes, are they used in wine making? Were >> there any vineyards or wineries in western New York state? If the train >> was name after the grapes, it could have it been that a significant >> portion (or block) of the train may have been devoted to grapes. >> The reason why I mention wine making is the western New York state is >> basically the same latitude as southwestern Michigan which is known for >> its vineyards and wineries. > >The Finger Lakes region of New York is well known for winemaking, though >the California wines are, as a rule, much better. The Elmira Branch >went right through this area, and the Rochester main approached it, but >that was it for PRR. > >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Purple Emporer Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:15:44 -0400 Did you forget that Welchs HQ's are in Westfield, NY and Northeast, PA, a huge vineyard area? ---------- > From: Mark Bej > To: ted.andrews@woolpert.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Purple Emporer > Date: Monday, May 17, 1999 9:42 AM > > > In regards to Purple Emporer grapes, are they used in wine making? Were > > there any vineyards or wineries in western New York state? If the train > > was name after the grapes, it could have it been that a significant > > portion (or block) of the train may have been devoted to grapes. > > The reason why I mention wine making is the western New York state is > > basically the same latitude as southwestern Michigan which is known for > > its vineyards and wineries. > > The Finger Lakes region of New York is well known for winemaking, though > the California wines are, as a rule, much better. The Elmira Branch > went right through this area, and the Rochester main approached it, but > that was it for PRR. > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:16:07 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Purple Emporer Back to the drawing board -- the Purple Emperor is not a wine grape. Also, I may be wrong here, but the P.E. (the train) did not use the Elmira branch, it went up the Buffalo line. -mike >> In regards to Purple Emporer grapes, are they used in wine making? Were >> there any vineyards or wineries in western New York state? If the train >> was name after the grapes, it could have it been that a significant >> portion (or block) of the train may have been devoted to grapes. >> The reason why I mention wine making is the western New York state is >> basically the same latitude as southwestern Michigan which is known for >> its vineyards and wineries. > >The Finger Lakes region of New York is well known for winemaking, though >the California wines are, as a rule, much better. The Elmira Branch >went right through this area, and the Rochester main approached it, but >that was it for PRR. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Aeolus3@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:08:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars In a message dated 99-05-17 03:02:13 EDT, ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: << Someone asked if the PRR ever painted a loaner dome car in Tuscan--Ive never found any evidence or even hint of it either in pictures of in text. >> The Dome cars that started all this were used on the South Wind. The Illinois Central Railroad bought dome coaches from the Mo Pac in the late 1960's. They were coaches built by both Pullman and Budd. The Domes were painted in IC Orange and Brown. Also in the 1960's during the winter months, the IC leased Northern Pacific Dome Sleepers, which were built by Budd. Since the NP needed five sets of equipment the Budd Company built ten Dome Seelpers in 1954 NP used 2 in each consist. In 1957 Budd built an additional Dome Sleeper for the NP resulting in 11 Dome Sleepers in all. I have not been able to find out how many Dome Sleepers the IC leased but they were painted in the Orange and Brown then repainted back into the two tone green of the NP upon return to the NP. I do know that IC had to lease at least 2 of the Dome Sleepers to protect the Panama, however if they had leased more than 2 perhaps they would show up on the South Wind therefore running on the Pennsy. I have an HO scale model of the North Coast Limited, I have a buddy that models the Panama Limited..... he is always looking at my Dome Sleepers and I keep telling him NO NO NO!!!!!!! I don't lease them out! I do remember seeing drawings for a Pennsy Dome care from Budd. Although it looked to be more of a single level "Superliner" type of car I don't think it ever got beyond the artist drawing stage. Remember as well the SAL's "Sunliner" cars also ran on the Pennsy as well, New York to Miami. Although not true domes... they did have windows in the roof area. Loren Johnson Aeolus3@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SMOKIECAT@webtv.net (STEVE CAT) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Track Charts and Track Drawings Does anyone out there ,,have Drawings of the MARC and SEPTA The drawings should contain,,tracks,,interlockings ,switches,,and platform locations Thank you Steve FDNY _________________________________ The Cat Family Chris L (my 6 yr old son) Mikie the Cat Tiger the Cat Smokey the Cat Italian Sandwiches----are they Heros,Hoagies,Grinders,Wedges or Subs ?? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Purple Emporer Date: Mon, 17 May 99 15:33:26 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/17/99 1:16 PM, Michael Bezilla (mxb13@psu.edu) wrote: >Also, >I may be wrong here, but the P.E. (the train) did not use the Elmira >branch, it went up the Buffalo line. -mike Mike: You are correct. I posted the block consist for this train middle of last week. Two blocks. One got re-iced at Renovo; the other did not. The train DID NOT use the Elmira Branch. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: [PRR] Slightly OT-Domes on PRR tracks Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:03:38 PDT The B&O on-board personnel told me it was because of fear of catenary. The timetable said only no one allowed in the domes east of Silver Spring, either east or westbound. Not sure how this would relate to ticket control. Unusually commuters between D.C and S.S. were restricted to coaches, and there was time for the crew to collect the tickets and fares from them between those points. When I rode Number 1 westbound for the last time, from D.C to St. Louis, my ticket was punched somewhere west of Rockville (Maryland, guys, we're talking BEANO, here)and that's many miles into the run. One could only imagine why it was bad to sit in a dome east of Silver Spring back in BEANO days, but it's OK to do it today. ??????? Andrew h, the aforementioned and maligned. Got chased out of the dome as we approached Washington Union Station. > > Exactly. Timetables said no one could occupy the dome east of Silver > > Spring. Reason: PRR catenary. > >Andrew, >are you certain about that, and that it was not for ticket control purposes? >Now that the _Capitol_ has Superliner equipment, the 'dome car' is of >exactly the same height as the rest of the cars. On my last trip that way >on the train, I was standing behind the conductor on the last car -- the >car my sleeper was in -- as we backed into Union Station under a heavy >mist. There seemed to be no rule against him standing there, with an open >door, holding the soaking-wet air hose, watching our backing move, the >catenary *quite* close overhead. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:50:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] P-RSL Lou, I'll also join the PRSL admiration society. The last steam powered common carrier ride I can recall was on the PRSL in about '56 or '57 when I was about ten years old, and I can recall various Atlantic City and Ocean City rides in the late '50's -early 60's era. These always made nice little outings from Philley, not to mention the race track trains that my uncle always managed to fit into his weekends and days off. Some summer vacations i'd get a chance to spend time with my cousins over in South Jersey and the little local freights seemed pretty frequent around Brooklawn and Westville. Being as how I've always been a Baldwin fan, trainwatching could be very nice over there. And the Atlantic City main line actually gave a nice impression of heavy duty operation, what with the double track and position lights and high speed operation. Yeah, count me in. Barry Peltier St. Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Low wire Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:43:21 -0400 (EDT) I found the instruction I referenced. It applies to MU equipment only, not to the GG1. Here goes.
1167-A24. (New York Div.) AC MU trains moving through the East River tunnels must have pantograph unlock (up button) button in and locked with pin provided for that purpose, before moving through East River Tunnels, to prevent pantographs from latching in the down position while moving under low wire. Pin must be removed after clearing tunnel.
My recollection is that Amtrak ETTs included the North [Hudson] River tunnels; this extension may be an Amtrak-ism. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Purple Emporer Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Jerry scrivit: > On 5/17/99 1:16 PM, Michael Bezilla (mxb13@psu.edu) wrote: > >Also, > >I may be wrong here, but the P.E. (the train) did not use the Elmira > >branch, it went up the Buffalo line. -mike > You are correct. I posted the block consist for this train middle of last > week. Two blocks. One got re-iced at Renovo; the other did not. > The train DID NOT use the Elmira Branch. Guys, what gives? I think I was the first person to bring up the Elmira Branch. If you re-read my post, I was answering a _general_ question with a _general_ response. I did _not_ reply with respect to the Purple Emperor, the train, nor with respect to the Purple Emperor, the grape! Someone 4 or 5 posts back asked if WNY (which I took to mean western New York state) grew grapes. I replied that it did, in the Finger Lakes region, and (trying desperately to stay on-topic) added that the PRR ran through this region with its Elmira Branch, and that the Rochester main came close by. That is all. Please don't read more into this than is actually said. -- Mark "sometimes there is nothing at all between the lines" Bej :-) Time to go home and have a beer. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Erie-builts Date: Mon, 17 May 99 20:54:09 -0400 From: Jerry For those who may be interested, the Miracle Castings HO scale Erie-built A units are indeed shipping. I received my personal A units today (including the first one off the line, according to MC's Pat Lawless). Wow! The detail betters that of the BP20 Sharks, which was thought pretty well of. The chassis fits very snug into the shell, which is very sturdy -- no side sag. Body "texture" is kinda neat. Kit includes mesh covering for the fans. Grills on roof vents are well done, especially for resin. So when we gonna see the B's? Others who ordered these units should be pleased when they receive them! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:19:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars TAN, FWIW, the dome on Amtrak Capitol Limited was an ex-NP car as well(maybe this should be posted to Conrail-talk instead:-)) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:03:12 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] while we're talking about P-54 cars Hi folks.... To keep a promise....A few weeks ago Gene Chase sent me another one of his P-54 kits. I've already built a combine (PB-54) and a P-54 coach for my Baltimore steam hauled locals. Gene has taken the old Walthers cars and has made molds for resin kits for them. While they aren't as nice (and not to mention expensive) as Brass, they do give the PRR modeler a choice for a P-54 (or PB) model.(I know,i know there's another kit out there). But i did tell Gene last i talked to him that i would mention this to you guys. Especially the new folks who were'nt here the last time his kits were brought up. Anyone wishing to contact him...Heres his e-mail address.... Gene Chase echase@netlabs.net For those who don't remember the Walthers cars or Gene's kits... They can be used for either the P-54 and PB-54 steam cars or the electric MP-54 and MPB-54 cars and subclasses. PRR,L.I.,PR-SL,P.C.,N&W and Washington Terminal Co. were owners of these cars just to name a few. (yeah i know there were others too, but i don't want to get another thread going again since the subject was brought up about owners of these cars about a year ago.) Have fun.... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] LIRR MP54 subclasses From: Michael E Allen Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:28:51 EDT The March / April 1991 issue of Electric Lines has an article by Michael Boland on the LIRR MP54 and T54 variants. the November / December 1988 issue has an article by Mr Boland on the Double Deckers MEA ________________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Telephone 609-683-0356 Management Services Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen meallen@juno.com W.R Allen Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net On Sun, 16 May 1999 19:33:46 -0400 Livingston writes: >Elliot, > >>From Wayner's PRR diagram book, 1981 edition: > >MP54A1: seats 80, lengthwise seats at ends, no toilet, no pantograph >(but motor is mentioned; third rail only?) > >MP54E6: seats 72, pantograph, no floor plan > >MP54, MP54D, MP54T, MP54E1, MP54E2: seats 72, all transverse seating, >toilet ("saloon") in one corner. The diagram does not say what >distinguishes the various types. > >>From Wayner's PRR diagram book, 1969 edition: >Floor plan of MP54E6 as above: "General Toilet" in one corner, seats >72, >all transverse seating. Now, General Toilet (the thing, not the >military guy) encloses a switchboard and a regulator/transformer >cabinet >as well as the head. >There were 50 cars of this type, numbers 409-458. > >Obviously the LIRR used other varieties of MP54. The above cars are >clerestoried. The LIRR also had arch roof MP-54s, subclass designation >unknown (to me). > -- Robert Livingston > >Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk wrote: >> >> Hello, >> Can anyone out there enlighten me as to the differences >between >> P54,P54a,P54b and P54d? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Elliot > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 04:45:47 -0700 From: "Louis D. Fols" Subject: [PRR] P-RSL replies Thanks to everyone that replied to my posting. I grew up in Brooklawn on the Millville branch during the 1950's and remember the end of steam. I model the line on a large N scale layout that appeared in N Scale Magazine in March 1990. Please write again anytime you can. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:49:08 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Track Charts Thanks to everybody who sent their request in. I am boxing the charts up and sending them to Jerry to have him put up on Keystone Crossings. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:26:00 -0500 From: Dick Taylor Subject: [PRR] (PRR)P-RSL >Thanks for list response. Where abouts were you raised and what area do >you model? >See my list reply. Keep in touch. >Lou Well, they say confession is good for the soul, and as long as I have noticed other admissions of railroad infidelity on the list, (e.g. Reading, B&O, Conrail, NYC [surprise], and [shock] PC), I'll come clean and admit my ongoing "dalliance" with the P-RSL. I was raised in Washington Township, South Jersey back before they paved it, and am old enough to remember electric's MU's groaning through Westville, and 2-8-0's in Blackwood. In fact, most of my wild and delightfully mis-spent youth was usually within ear, if not eye, shot of the P-RSL. I don't really model a specific area of the P-RSL but I do have a area roughed in that has a more than casual resemblance to Tuckaho Junction, (no octagonal outhouse up yet), and my yard is called Pavonia. Less I be banned from the list, I do have a 4 track mainline that the yard connects to! (Actually, its more a single track loop with a bad case of the hiccups.) I have a question to those in the know or have better memory than I do. Did the P-PSL buy its diesel paint from the Pennsy? Pictures that I have of the AS-16's et.al. seem to show a light greenish tinge to them. I did a GP-38 kitbash and painted it black and it just didn't look "right" I stripped it and repainted it in DGLE and it looked closed to the pictures. Any help? Regards, Dick Taylor Dalbo MN. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:27:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts and Track Drawings In a message dated 5/17/99 1:24:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SMOKIECAT@webtv.net writes: << Does anyone out there ,,have Drawings of the MARC and SEPTA The drawings should contain,,tracks,,interlockings ,switches,,and platform locations Thank you Steve FDNY >> Steve, Have you checked with Dave Cramer at trainsite@aol.com? He specializes in track charts and profiles; he's very likely to have charts for the predecessor operators of this trackage. I got my PRR Lines West charts from him. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] New Bowser HO Scale Releases Date: Tue, 18 May 99 14:23:11 -0400 From: Jerry Bowser has now shipped the undecorated versions of their new H-21 and H22 hoppers with "clam shell" doors. They will soon be shipping decorated versions. Still planned for 1999 are: PRR K-9 50' Stock Car PRR X-31F 'Turtle Roof Box Car" PRR X-33 Automoble Box Car with end doors --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] note Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:19:22 -0400 To all: I am sure that part of the reason not to offer a N8 is because of the tooling cost. Maybe we could get "Al Westerfield" to consider doing a N8? Of course it's not a shake the box kit........But it will be on the money for accuracy. Thanks, Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] note > Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 9:01 PM > > On 5/18/99 6:52 PM, JOELPRR@aol.com (JOELPRR@aol.com) wrote: > > >I asked Lee English about making an N8 caboose, but, he said he didn't have > >any plans to make one. I sure would like a couple of 'em. > > Hey,..get to the back of the line!!! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:38:51 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Spruce creek I'm Baaacckkk! I'm looking to do a model railroad in N-scale of the Spruce creek area. I am looking for photos of buildings in the area next to the tracks. Since I am confined to a very small layout (4x4') that has to be portable, I'm obviously doing a lot of compression. I've already downloaded the interlocking diagram (?) and designed my layout based on that - loosely........ My time frame is 1940's and I've got 2 mikes, a t-1, a PA-B unit and a lot of fruit cars and box cars. I'd certainly appreciate any helpful comments that might lead me to buildings and scenery, so that I could at least say some of the layout is prototypical! Thanks in advance, Roger Elliott Arcata, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:05:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's and Dome cars Bill and All, I have a beautiful color roster type photograph taken by Mr. Sweetland at East Altoona in January 1962 of PB-1 #5758B all dressed up in Tuscan Red and Billboard lettering with a single broad stripe running her body. In my research I could find no other unit in the same livery, but if you have a picture of #5756 in the same paint I would love to see it so I can compare and make some notes for my modeling article. I have looked at so many pictures my eyes are going cross, hope it doesn't show in my modeling. Not saying you are wrong just hoping to get a peak. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST Salem, OR In a message herzog@icanect.net writes: << Correction, it was the 5756B, not 5758B that got the single stripe Tuscan with the shadowed Keystones paint job. Bill Volkmer >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] PRR Early Containers Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:00:25 -0400 Greetings to the group, Thought I'd pass along the fact that the April/May 1999 issue of Model Railroading magazine has a five page article by Larry Smith on the Pennsy's early LCL container service. There are photos and drawings of both DD1A and SD1 containers included. These traveled on class FM flat cars. Haven't read it yet, but it looks good. There is also a full page ad for a book coming out in September devoted to PRR's fleet of open top hopper cars. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Early Containers Date: Wed, 19 May 99 07:53:38 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/19/99 7:00 AM, jbreon (jbreon@email.msn.com) wrote: > Thought I'd pass along the fact that the April/May 1999 issue of Model >Railroading magazine has a five page article by Larry Smith on the Pennsy's >early LCL container service. There are photos and drawings of both DD1A and >SD1 containers included. These traveled on class FM flat cars. Haven't read >it yet, but it looks good. RailWorks offers a brass container car and offers both DD1 and SD1 containers. Their promo sheet for the product was the first I had seen these two containers. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Early Containers Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:58:46 -0400 >RailWorks offers a brass container car and offers both DD1 and SD1 >containers. Their promo sheet for the product was the first I had seen >these two containers. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Railworks imported (about ten years ago) a class FM flat car with 5 containers and a longer car with 8 containers. These were some of Railworks first models and are both very nice (and rarely seen on the market today). They have "announced" that they will be doing the short car with 5 containers again, as Jerry said. I would not expect them to be available this year, although the FM flat car without containers may be. Their recent DD1 electric locomotive was first "announced" over two years ago. Generally, Railworks does produce what they advertise, but "announced" products generally have to produce enough firm dealer reservations to warrant building the models. Just a fact of life in the brass business, normally. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Wed, 19 May 99 08:28:25 EST Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] note Gosh....this is getting to be a long line ;-) Ted ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] note Author: Jerry at Internet Date: 5/18/99 9:01 PM On 5/18/99 6:52 PM, JOELPRR@aol.com (JOELPRR@aol.com) wrote: >I asked Lee English about making an N8 caboose, but, he said he didn't have >any plans to make one. I sure would like a couple of 'em. Hey,..get to the back of the line!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] ERIE-builts in Passenger Service Date: Wed, 19 May 99 12:58:55 -0400 From: Jerry There were several ERIE-builts that were initially assigned to passenger service. Did they remain in passenger service throughout their lives, or were they reassigned to freight service at some point? If they were reassigned, anyone know at what point? I am considering modeling my Miracle Castings units to represent the passenger version (FP20) instead of the freight version (FF20) but I am concerned about my modeling year: 1954. If they were still in passenger service, they could be painted either DGLE five stripe (weathered) or Tuscan five stripe or maybe even single-wide stripe (fresh paint job). Would FP20's have been used in and through Harrisburg? Can anyone provide input? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:46:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Ed Turner - SE BellSouth District Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Station Rebirth? A plan unveiled Wednesday to rebuild Penn Station would put the busy underground West Side Manhattan transit hub on street level again with a design intended to earn it the artistic admiration now given only to the East Side's Grand Central Terminal. http://www.cnn.com/US/9905/19/penn.station.renovation/ -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, Systems Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Computer Systems Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6785 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:04:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Early Containers In a message dated 5/19/99 6:30:43 AM EST, jbreon@email.msn.com writes: << There is also a full page ad for a book coming out in September devoted to PRR's fleet of open top hopper cars. >> Is this the "Long Awaited" compilation of John Teichmoeller's articles on PRR Hoppers printed in Model Railroading and the Keystone? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Station Rebirth? Date: Wed, 19 May 99 14:06:22 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/19/99 1:46 PM, Ed Turner - SE BellSouth District (ed.turner@east.sun.com) wrote: >A plan unveiled Wednesday to rebuild Penn Station would put the busy >underground >West Side Manhattan transit hub on street level again with a design >intended to >earn it the artistic admiration now given only to the East Side's Grand >Central >Terminal. > > http://www.cnn.com/US/9905/19/penn.station.renovation/ I first heard of this plan about two years ago. A "Trains Unlimited" episode on The History Channel featured the history of the original Penn Station. (I have it on tape.) At the very end, they made mention of the plan to build a new Penn Station using the Post Office across the street. I was very skeptical...now it looks like it is actually proceeding. Very good news indeed! I wonder if they will try to acquire the original "Night & Day" sculpture that adorned the original building? The sculpture now rests in a park somewhere in New Jersey. It would be great if they could retrieve it. What other PRR Penn Station items are still out there? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Station Rebirth? Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:56:57 -0400 (EDT) > I wonder if they will try to acquire the original "Night & Day" sculpture > that adorned the original building? The sculpture now rests in a park > somewhere in New Jersey. It would be great if they could retrieve it. > What other PRR Penn Station items are still out there? Lots of the eagles are around. 4 of them adorn the Market St. Bridge in Philadelphia. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:36:01 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] New York's Penn station Hi all... as to stuff from the old Penn station...I've also heard and seen where some of the upper train gates were saved....but God only knows where they are today. If one could be found...perhaps new ones could be made,similar to the way the New type gates were made for Penn stations counterpart...Washington Terminal. Now if we could just get someone to Rebuild Old Broad or Trenton or Altoona or...etc. LOL Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:19:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Jerry, I don't think that any Erie built received the post-1952 Tuscan treatment. According to the FM supplied roster in The Diesel Builders Vol. 1, Fairbanks Morse and Lima/Lima-Hamilton-Baldwin, all 36 PRR Erie Builts, 12 ABA 3600-hp lashups were delivered as Freight units. Only mention I have seen of any Erie Built being regeared for passenger service is in Pennsy Power II. I would feel more comfortable with a second source of information on these. All Erie Builts were built and delivered between Nov. 1948 and Dec 1949. All were delivered in DGLE/single stripe freight schemes. A further argument that these were ordered for freight service is that the Erie Builts had Dynamic brakes. Greg Martin, in researching the PA/PB for his story, points out that the Pennsylvania did not order dynamic brakes on any of the cab units it bought for passenger service, whether it was the E7s or E8s, PAs or Bp20s Sharknoses, centipedes. RS1, RS3 and FP9s. If any Erie Built was regeared for passenger service, it was likely done early and most assuredly did not last until 1952 when the Tuscan scheme was adopted. The only ones which made the cut unequivocally were the E-units, the FP9s the PAs/PBs and the Passenger sharks and various RS units primarily in commuter service. Most of the Erie Built and C-Lliner shots I've seen seem to be in PA. I haven't seen any, for example, out here on the Little Miami system. My short answer. Would you find Erie-Buiits in service through Harrisburg in 1954 -- and unequivocal yes. would any have been in passenger service, and would you find any in Tuscan paint in 1954, an unequivocal no. It seems that I've read all FM cab units were gone from PRR service by 1964. I'm taking this off the top of my head. I'll still like another source besides Stauffer for Erie Builts in passenger service ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:13:03 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Towers on the former Maryland(Ches.) Division Hello again you all.... On a recent train trip up to Baltimore i took notice of the R of W on the way up from Newport News,Va. I knew i was near former Pennsy territory after we passed Alexandria,Va. and saw the remnants of what was once Potomac Yard. Theres still a few short yard tracks at the south end and the property is still mostly empty. But a shame just as well. At least the old catenary poles are still mostly in place. One thing i did notice was a very old mile post like marker at the very south end of the Virginia Ave. tunnel just before going into Washington Terminal. This had P,B & W on one side...i could'nt read the other side. I got a look at some of the towers before getting to Baltimore. One was Gwynn which is just south of the B & P tunnel. Although still standing...it is more or less gutted. The other was one back in Washington. This tower was between the south end of the Virginia Ave tunnel and the Northern end of Potomac River bridge...not far from the U.S. Mint. Although it did not seem to be in use, it still seemed to be in good shape. Does anyone know which tower this is....from what i read in the old timetables i have i make it out to be 14th Street, But according to both old PRR and PC timetables,14th street was an interlocking and that it was controlled by "Virginia". If thats the case then this tower should have been gone a long time ago. But if its "Virginia" I would take it to be a tower thats supposed to be (and it is) south of the tunnel. In this case it would make sense. As for its existance,if nothing else perhaps its used as a back up facility. The tower is very similar to Gwynn in design,but perhaps smaller. Anyone know what it is? Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:59:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Station Rebirth? In a message dated 5/19/99 1:45:36 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << I wonder if they will try to acquire the original "Night & Day" sculpture that adorned the original building? The sculpture now rests in a park somewhere in New Jersey. It would be great if they could retrieve it. What other PRR Penn Station items are still out there? >> The last page of Hudson to Horseshoe mentions the eagle sculptures are at Fairmount Park in Philly, Market St. Bridge in Philly and elsewhere. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:13:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? In the appendix to PDY Vol ! Bill Volkmer notes that 9480A - 9491A were received as class FP20 and changed to FF20 in 1952. In FM Locomotives Jim Boyd notes that the same 12 locomotives were equipped with boilers for passenger service. In Pennsy Power II there is a notation on page 226 that the class FP20a had been regeared from class FF3 as class FP3 and subsequently regeared back to freight units In Pennsy Power III there is a photo caption which states that even though the Erie builts were purchased as passenger units they never saw the five stripe scheme. On page 88 of PDY Vol 1 there is a photo of an Erie built in passenger service. This lash-up is in DLGE single stripe and is listed as a 1951 photo. It would seem clear that 1) the PRR ordered at least 12 units equipped for passenger service; 2) A number of units were reclassed at least three times bouncing between freight and passenger classes; 3) At least three unit (ABA) were used in passenger service on at least one occasion; 4) the Erie's probably never saw any passenger paint scheme. Rich Orr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:36:49 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? --------------CFD1CE1B9A700E4CFB6071C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: Fairbanks Morse "Erie Built" 2000hp, A-1-A trucks, final PRR class FF20, included the following: 9456A to 9491A - 36 A units. 9456B to 9478B (even numbers only) - 12 B units. The above information can be found in several sources - Pennsy Power II and Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives. Moving on to the next section - From the PRR publication Pennsylvania Railroad Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June 2, 1952 - superseding (same name) No. 109-J, Dated May 15th, 1948. Lists the following classifications: **notes in () my own** FF-20 "A" 245,720 lbs, no heat, dynamic brakes (all A locomotives after 1954 reclassification) FF-20 "B" 245,140 lbs, no heat, dynamic brakes (all B locomotives after 1954 reclassification) FP-20 "A" 230,800 lbs - steam heat - no dynamic brakes (9478A - 9479A). FP-20 "B" 232,100 lbs - steam heat - no dynamic brakes (9478B) FP-20a "A" 236,200 lbs - steam heat - dynamic brakes (9472A-9477A) FP-20a "B" 232,600 lbs - steam heat - dynamic brakes (9472B-9476B even only) 9456A & B delivered 11/47 builder numbers L1108 (A) & L1103 (B) 9491A delivered 12/48 builder number L1169 The dynamic brakes where exhausted through four square grills\openings above the engine on the engineers side only. Photographic proof is available for the following units: 9474 yes dynamics - page 331 PPIII 9467 yes dynamics - page 275 PPII On page 270 of PPII is 9486 without dynamic brakes and a mystery pipe on the engineers side plus an unknown A unit with and 2 B units both with dynamic brakes 9456 yes dynamics - page 269 PPII also page 235 9476 yes dynamics - page 226 PPII 94?3 yes dynamics - page 153 The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s - 1950s There is a picture of 9491 on page 274 of PPII - I can not see the grills where I think they should be. I have looked at this with my diopter, but that doesn't help either. It has a pipe running the from the back of the unit to just before the cab (similar to the one on the 9486) it goes right across where the grills should be. The only other Erie built that I can see this pipe on is Milwaukee 7-A built in early 1947. I can find only one picture of a set of FP20s in passenger service - it is of 9479 on page 273 of PPII. Questions: 1. Where was the steam generator located - in back of the cab or in the back of the unit? 2. Did the last batch ( 9483A to 9491A ) come without dynamic brakes, or was there a different exhaust arrangement? 3. Why would the PRR order its last batch without dynamic brakes - all the C-liners had them. cos wsbcos.com LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > Jerry, > > I don't think that any Erie built received the post-1952 > Tuscan treatment. According to the FM supplied roster in The Diesel Builders > Vol. 1, Fairbanks Morse and Lima/Lima-Hamilton-Baldwin, all 36 PRR Erie > Builts, 12 ABA 3600-hp lashups were delivered as Freight units. Only mention > I have seen of any Erie Built being regeared for passenger service is in > Pennsy Power II. I would feel more comfortable with a second source of > information on these. > All Erie Builts were built and delivered between Nov. 1948 and Dec > 1949. All were delivered in DGLE/single stripe freight schemes. A further > argument that these were ordered for freight service is that the Erie Builts > had Dynamic brakes. Greg Martin, in researching the PA/PB for his story, > points out that the Pennsylvania did not order dynamic brakes on any of the > cab units it bought for passenger service, whether it was the E7s or E8s, PAs > or Bp20s Sharknoses, centipedes. RS1, RS3 and FP9s. > If any Erie Built was regeared for passenger service, it was likely done > early and most assuredly did not last until 1952 when the Tuscan scheme was > adopted. > The only ones which made the cut unequivocally were the E-units, the FP9s the > PAs/PBs and the Passenger sharks and various RS units primarily in commuter > service. > Most of the Erie Built and C-Lliner shots I've seen seem to be in PA. > I haven't seen any, for example, out here on the Little Miami system. > My short answer. Would you find Erie-Buiits in service through > Harrisburg in 1954 -- and unequivocal yes. would any have been in passenger > service, and would you find any in Tuscan paint in 1954, an unequivocal no. > It seems that I've read all FM cab units were gone from PRR service > by 1964. > I'm taking this off the top of my head. I'll still like another > source besides Stauffer for Erie Builts in passenger service > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------CFD1CE1B9A700E4CFB6071C6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:

Fairbanks Morse "Erie Built"  2000hp, A-1-A trucks, final PRR class FF20, included the following:

9456A to 9491A - 36 A units.
9456B to 9478B (even numbers only) - 12 B units.

The above information can be found in several sources - Pennsy Power II and Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives.

Moving on to the next section - From the PRR publication Pennsylvania Railroad Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June 2, 1952 - superseding (same name) No. 109-J, Dated May 15th, 1948.

Lists the following classifications:
**notes in () my own**

FF-20 "A"  245,720 lbs, no heat, dynamic brakes  (all A locomotives after 1954 reclassification)
FF-20 "B"  245,140 lbs, no heat, dynamic brakes  (all B locomotives after 1954 reclassification)

FP-20 "A"  230,800 lbs - steam heat - no dynamic brakes (9478A - 9479A).
FP-20 "B"  232,100 lbs - steam heat - no dynamic brakes (9478B)

FP-20a  "A" 236,200 lbs - steam heat - dynamic brakes (9472A-9477A)
FP-20a  "B" 232,600 lbs - steam heat - dynamic brakes (9472B-9476B even only)

9456A & B delivered 11/47 builder numbers L1108 (A) & L1103 (B)
9491A delivered 12/48 builder number L1169

The dynamic brakes where exhausted through four square grills\openings above the engine on the engineers side only.

Photographic proof is available for the following units:
9474 yes dynamics - page 331 PPIII
9467 yes dynamics - page 275 PPII
On page 270 of PPII is 9486 without dynamic brakes and a mystery pipe on the engineers side plus an unknown A unit with and 2 B units both with dynamic brakes
9456 yes dynamics - page 269 PPII also page 235
9476 yes dynamics - page 226 PPII
94?3 yes dynamics - page 153 The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s - 1950s
There is a picture of 9491 on page 274 of PPII - I can not  see the grills where I think they should be.  I have looked at this with my diopter, but that doesn't help either.  It has a pipe running the from the back of the unit to just before the cab  (similar to the one on the 9486)  it goes right across where the grills should be.  The only other Erie built that I can see this pipe on is Milwaukee 7-A built in early 1947.

I can find only one picture of a set of FP20s in passenger service - it is of 9479 on page 273 of PPII.

Questions:
1.  Where was the steam generator located - in back of the cab or in the back of the unit?
2.  Did the last batch ( 9483A to 9491A ) come without dynamic brakes, or was there a different exhaust arrangement?
3.  Why would the PRR order its last batch without dynamic brakes - all the C-liners had them.

cos
wsbcos.com
 

LINESWEST@aol.com wrote:

Jerry,

                I don't think that any Erie built received the post-1952
Tuscan treatment. According to the FM supplied roster in The Diesel Builders
Vol. 1, Fairbanks Morse and Lima/Lima-Hamilton-Baldwin, all 36 PRR Erie
Builts, 12 ABA 3600-hp lashups were delivered as Freight units. Only mention
I have seen of any Erie Built being regeared for passenger service is in
Pennsy Power II. I would feel more comfortable with a second source of
information on these.
        All Erie Builts were built and delivered between Nov. 1948 and Dec
1949. All were delivered in DGLE/single stripe freight schemes. A further
argument that these were ordered for freight service is that the Erie Builts
had Dynamic brakes. Greg Martin, in researching the PA/PB for his story,
points out that the Pennsylvania did not order dynamic brakes on any of the
cab units it bought for passenger service, whether it was the E7s or E8s, PAs
or Bp20s Sharknoses, centipedes. RS1, RS3 and FP9s.
    If any Erie Built was regeared for passenger service, it was likely done
early and most assuredly did not last until 1952 when the Tuscan scheme was
adopted.
The only ones which made the cut unequivocally were the E-units, the FP9s the
PAs/PBs and the Passenger sharks and various RS units primarily in commuter
service.
        Most of the Erie Built and C-Lliner shots I've seen seem to be in PA.
I haven't seen any, for example, out here on the Little Miami system.
        My short answer. Would you find Erie-Buiits in service through
Harrisburg in 1954 -- and unequivocal yes. would any have been in passenger
service, and would you find any in Tuscan paint in 1954, an unequivocal no.
        It seems that I've read all FM cab units were gone from PRR service
by 1964.
        I'm taking this off the top of my head. I'll still like another
source besides Stauffer for Erie Builts in passenger service

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  --------------CFD1CE1B9A700E4CFB6071C6-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Date: Thu, 20 May 99 06:27:05 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/19/99 7:19 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: > I don't think that any Erie built received the post-1952 >Tuscan treatment. According to the FM supplied roster in The Diesel Builders >Vol. 1, Fairbanks Morse and Lima/Lima-Hamilton-Baldwin, all 36 PRR Erie >Builts, 12 ABA 3600-hp lashups were delivered as Freight units. Only mention >I have seen of any Erie Built being regeared for passenger service is in >Pennsy Power II. I would feel more comfortable with a second source of >information on these. > All Erie Builts were built and delivered between Nov. 1948 and Dec >1949. All were delivered in DGLE/single stripe freight schemes. > If any Erie Built was regeared for passenger service, it was likely done >early and most assuredly did not last until 1952 when the Tuscan scheme was >adopted. I have no problem with your saying that no ERIE's survived in passenger service as late as 1952, the introduction of the Tuscan paint scheme. However, the diesel roster on "KC", compiled from numerous sources, shows 8 A units and 4 B units as class FP20...passenger service. Unfortunately, it does not include any notation about conversion to FF20. These conversions are often noted in this database. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 01:18:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? In a message dated 5/19/99 6:53:52 PM Central Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << Most of the Erie Built and C-Lliner shots I've seen seem to be in PA. I haven't seen any, for example, out here on the Little Miami system. >> <> I have two photos of Erie-builts hauling passenger trains in Chicago in 1948 and 1949. From the collecton of William A. Raia. And Page 273 of PPII shows an Erie-built on a passenger train. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:49:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ERIE-builts in Passenger Service In a message dated 5/19/99 12:17:28 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << If they were still in passenger service, they could be painted either DGLE five stripe (weathered) or Tuscan five stripe or maybe even single-wide stripe (fresh paint job). >> Jerry: >From delivery through scrapping, the Erie-builts had one and only one paint scheme: DGLE with single narrow stripe, no matter what the service. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Wed, 19 May 99 16:22:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Erie Builts Jerry: I think that all Erie Builts were delivered in Brunswick Green with a single stripe. I have never seen a photo of one painted otherwise (that does not mean that one exists). I do not have the dates in front of me, but I think the the dual service Erie Builts (FP-20's) were converted to freight service sometime in the early 1950's. I do not know if this involved regearing and or the removal of the steam generator. My source, which I don't have in front of me, is Al Stauffer's Pennsy Power II. I am writing all of this out of my feeble memory. Anyone please add or correct me if I am off base. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana P.S. Based on the photos that I have seen of FP-20/FF-20, I think that the chances were very good for them to be seen in Harrisburg (Enola). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:43:20 -0400 During my tenure beginning in 1958, the FM fleet was based in Columbus and was used only east of there. Around 1960, they were re-assigned to Conway. The Alco FAs and FM road units rarely got west of Ohio. In the 6 months I was at 59th Street Chicago, we had only one visit by a set of FAs and I believe i recorded that event on filum. ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 1:18 AM > > In a message dated 5/19/99 6:53:52 PM Central Daylight Time, > LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > > << Most of the Erie Built and C-Lliner shots I've seen seem to be in PA. > I haven't seen any, for example, out here on the Little Miami system. >> > < source besides Stauffer for Erie Builts in passenger service>> > > I have two photos of Erie-builts hauling passenger trains in Chicago in 1948 > and 1949. From the collecton of William A. Raia. > And Page 273 of PPII shows an Erie-built on a passenger train. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Passenger units WITH dynamic brake Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:45:16 -0400 For what its worth, I believe the only railroads that bought EMD passenger E units with dynamic brake were UP and SP. The Southern added it to their E-8s and E-9s and E-6 B units but the E-7s and E-6As I don't think were ever converted. The reason the air tanks went up on the roof on the E-8s is that they had to move the water tanks down where the air tanks were to make room for the db grids. Now how's THAT for trivia you didn't need to know? ---------- > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > To: wsbcos@cris.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 9:06 AM > > In a message dated 5/20/99 12:58:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wsbcos@cris.com > writes: > > << 3. Why would the PRR order its last batch without dynamic brakes -- all > the > C-Liner had them. > >> > No diesel purchased by the PRR for purely passenger service had DBs? The > C-Liners were purchased as freight units. > > Tom V. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Station Rebirth? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:36:57 -0400 They also recently found one of the eagles in some guy's garden in Westchester County, New York. ---------- > From: Mark Bej > To: Jerry > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com; Jerry Jordak > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Station Rebirth? > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 5:56 PM > > > I wonder if they will try to acquire the original "Night & Day" sculpture > > that adorned the original building? The sculpture now rests in a park > > somewhere in New Jersey. It would be great if they could retrieve it. > > What other PRR Penn Station items are still out there? > > Lots of the eagles are around. > > 4 of them adorn the Market St. Bridge in Philadelphia. > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:34:28 -0400 On page 130 of Don Ball's Pennsy book there is a photo of the Juniata eastbound through Huntington in 1951 which, with any luck, means it made it into Harrisburg! ---------- > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > To: jerry@dsop.com > Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 7:19 PM > > Jerry, > > I don't think that any Erie built received the post-1952 > Tuscan treatment. According to the FM supplied roster in The Diesel Builders > Vol. 1, Fairbanks Morse and Lima/Lima-Hamilton-Baldwin, all 36 PRR Erie > Builts, 12 ABA 3600-hp lashups were delivered as Freight units. Only mention > I have seen of any Erie Built being regeared for passenger service is in > Pennsy Power II. I would feel more comfortable with a second source of > information on these. > All Erie Builts were built and delivered between Nov. 1948 and Dec > 1949. All were delivered in DGLE/single stripe freight schemes. A further > argument that these were ordered for freight service is that the Erie Builts > had Dynamic brakes. Greg Martin, in researching the PA/PB for his story, > points out that the Pennsylvania did not order dynamic brakes on any of the > cab units it bought for passenger service, whether it was the E7s or E8s, PAs > or Bp20s Sharknoses, centipedes. RS1, RS3 and FP9s. > If any Erie Built was regeared for passenger service, it was likely done > early and most assuredly did not last until 1952 when the Tuscan scheme was > adopted. > The only ones which made the cut unequivocally were the E-units, the FP9s the > PAs/PBs and the Passenger sharks and various RS units primarily in commuter > service. > Most of the Erie Built and C-Lliner shots I've seen seem to be in PA. > I haven't seen any, for example, out here on the Little Miami system. > My short answer. Would you find Erie-Buiits in service through > Harrisburg in 1954 -- and unequivocal yes. would any have been in passenger > service, and would you find any in Tuscan paint in 1954, an unequivocal no. > It seems that I've read all FM cab units were gone from PRR service > by 1964. > I'm taking this off the top of my head. I'll still like another > source besides Stauffer for Erie Builts in passenger service > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:38:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Gee, This means I'll have to Buy three ErieBuilt ABA lashup ups passenger, freight & dual service. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:30:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Thanks, Rich. I only recently purchased PDY I and PDY II but haven't had Time to read them. If there were Erie Builts sold to the PRR with boilers AND Dynamic brakes, then they were ordered as dual service, not all freight as the Diesel Builders Vol. 1 roster states. It's also an exception to the general rule that early PRR passenger diesels were purchased without DBs. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers on the former Maryland(Ches.) Division Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:17:11 -0400 (EDT) > One thing i did > notice was a very old mile post like marker at the very south end > of the Virginia Ave. tunnel just before going into Washington > Terminal. This had P,B & W on one side...i could'nt read the > other side. This likely was the valuation marker placed in the 'teens or '20s when the RRs were surveyed so that the 'govmint' could repay them for taking them over. > I got a look at some of the towers before getting to > Baltimore. One was Gwynn which is just south of the B & P tunnel. > Although still standing...it is more or less gutted. The other > was one back in Washington. This tower was between the south end > of the Virginia Ave tunnel and the Northern end of Potomac River > bridge...not far from the U.S. Mint. VIRGINIA tower. It was one of the last ones in that area to go. Remember, this was on Conrail, not Amtrak. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:45:26 -0400 Ain't it a shame that the order that was written up in Philadelphia for LIONEL never made it out of the office????? The reason was that the Lionel stuff was the wrong gauge and Lionel was not willing like Baldwin and Fairbanks to modify their designs to suit the PRR. ---------- > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > To: LINESWEST@aol.com; jerry@dsop.com > Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 12:13 AM > > In the appendix to PDY Vol ! Bill Volkmer notes that 9480A - 9491A were > received as class FP20 and changed to FF20 in 1952. > > In FM Locomotives Jim Boyd notes that the same 12 locomotives were equipped > with boilers for passenger service. > > In Pennsy Power II there is a notation on page 226 that the class FP20a had > been regeared from class FF3 as class FP3 and subsequently regeared back to > freight units > > In Pennsy Power III there is a photo caption which states that even though > the Erie builts were purchased as passenger units they never saw the five > stripe scheme. > > On page 88 of PDY Vol 1 there is a photo of an Erie built in passenger > service. This lash-up is in DLGE single stripe and is listed as a 1951 photo. > > It would seem clear that 1) the PRR ordered at least 12 units equipped for > passenger service; 2) A number of units were reclassed at least three times > bouncing between freight and passenger classes; 3) At least three unit (ABA) > were used in passenger service on at least one occasion; 4) the Erie's > probably never saw any passenger paint scheme. > > Rich Orr. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:17:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? FWIW, the Erie-builts I have photos on at Chicago were: 9474 leading AB lashup inbound (WB) with passenger (heavy headend) to CUS passing the coach yards at Roosevelt Road. (12th St). August 1949 9478 leading AA lashup inbound (WB) with passenger (7 headend and 11 passenger cars) at (I am almost certain) Englewood (63rd St). May 1948. Save your money on ABA lashups in 1948-49 on the Chicago Division :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:06:45 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: [Fwd: [PRR] Re: Passenger units WITH dynamic brake] Is this right? I thought that the second order of Southern's E-8's came from the factory with the air tanks on the roof. I'm at the office so I can't confirm my source, but I think it may have been a builder's photo in a Mainline Modeler article. John "Green Light" Ryan -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PRR] Re: Passenger units WITH dynamic brake Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:45:16 -0400 From: "Bill Volkmer" Reply-To: To: , CC: For what its worth, I believe the only railroads that bought EMD passenger E units with dynamic brake were UP and SP. The Southern added it to their E-8s and E-9s and E-6 B units but the E-7s and E-6As I don't think were ever converted. The reason the air tanks went up on the roof on the E-8s is that they had to move the water tanks down where the air tanks were to make room for the db grids. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:25:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] FM Units - side note While you're looking at photos of the FM's note that the gutters over the cab doors were painted with a yellow stripe. An older friend, now gone, who worked in Pennsy management told me that the stripes were not just decorative but had a real function - Many crew members hit their heads on this gutter, some falling backwards to the ballast, and this "trim" was a safety warning. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Date: Thu, 20 May 99 10:23:23 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/20/99 7:34 AM, Bill Volkmer (herzog@icanect.net) wrote: >On page 130 of Don Ball's Pennsy book there is a photo of the Juniata >eastbound through Huntington in 1951 which, with any luck, means it made it >into Harrisburg! You didn't say so, but I take it this photo had Erie's at the head? The Juniata was actually a rather large train and did run through Harrisburg, and on to New York, actually. As of Sept. 26th, 1954, the consist and schedule at Harrisburg was: 4:22pm.....72 arr from Pittsburgh The Juniata Express.....Berwick to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (Three cars) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Chicago to Hartford (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Chicago to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....St. Louis to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Cincinnati to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Pittsburgh to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Pittsburgh to Springfield (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Baggage/Mail.....Pittsburgh to New York (BM70 30') Parlor.....Pittsburgh to New York (PL 28-1) Coffee Shop Tavern.....Pittsburgh to New York Coaches.....Pittsburgh to New York (P70GSR) (Two cars) Coach.....Harrisburg to New York (P70 Scheme 6) Harrisburg: Add from Coach Yard. Of course, we have already discussed that Erie's in passenger service were probably all converted to freight service circa 1952. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:06:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? In a message dated 5/20/99 12:58:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wsbcos@cris.com writes: << 3. Why would the PRR order its last batch without dynamic brakes -- all the C-Liner had them. >> No diesel purchased by the PRR for purely passenger service had DBs? The C-Liners were purchased as freight units. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:22:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? This discussion raises a question which may have been answered but I missed it: are the Miracle Castings shells with or without dynamic brakes, with or without steam generator exhaust? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] FM Units - side note Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:16:04 -0400 Lots of people have trouble "avoiding the gutter!" ---------- > From: VVA249@aol.com > To: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] FM Units - side note > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 9:25 AM > > While you're looking at photos of the FM's note that the gutters over > the cab doors were painted with a yellow stripe. > An older friend, now gone, who worked in Pennsy management told me > that the stripes were not just decorative but had a real function - Many crew > members hit their heads on this gutter, some falling backwards to the > ballast, and this "trim" was a safety warning. > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:45:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes (was Erie-builts,etc) In a message dated 5/20/99 8:43:40 AM Central Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << No diesel purchased by the PRR for purely passenger service had DBs? >> Excuse the non-Pennsy thought, but I think the principle applies through today on Amtrak. Don't believe any Amtrak F40PHs have dynamics, unless some units out West have them. Anyone know about the Genesis units? BTW, anyone know offhand what the "principle" is (i.e., why dyanamic brakes aren't commonly used on passenger locomotives)? I'm too lazy to put my rusty engineering hat on to figure it out. I guess I would start with speeds, gearing, as a factor. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Who says ERIE-builts were in Passenger Service? Date: Thu, 20 May 99 13:48:35 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/20/99 12:22 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >This discussion raises a question which may have been answered but I missed >it: are the Miracle Castings shells with or without dynamic brakes, with or >without steam generator exhaust? > I'm not the expert and don't know if I could ID the steam generator exhaust unless it bit me in the... Anyway, I was going to suggest that we look at MC's online photos as they have closeups of the roofwork. Unfortunately, their site seems to be crippled (http://mc.cyklone.com/default.htm) as it is loading extremely slow or not loading at all. Maybe it's a trend: My web server was out to lunch all morning. All seems well now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:17:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes In a message dated 5/20/99 1:01:43 PM EST, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << BTW, anyone know offhand what the "principle" is (i.e., why dyanamic brakes aren't commonly used on passenger locomotives)? I'm too lazy to put my rusty engineering hat on to figure it out. I guess I would start with speeds, gearing, as a factor. Bob Zoeller >> My guess..... Dynamic brakes imply a gradual stop or slowing - saving the brake shoes "downhill" passenger trains usually would run right up to a signal or a station and then apply brakes Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:13:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes (was I always thought that the mass of a passenger train didn't warrant dynamics. I would think that the tonnage compared to a freight would be minuscule and could be easily controlled with the train brakes if needed in an emergency. That's my logic and humble opinion. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Why no DB on the passenger units? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:32:46 -0400 Just after i read this letter, my Road Foreman walked in and I confirmed with him (he's off the EL) that the railroads didn't want the slack action on the passenger trains that you typically get from dynamic brake as it existed in the 1950s. With today's blended brake systems where you automatically get dynamic and blended together, its OK and the passengers don't get jolted around. But back in the old days, if you were standing in a caboose at the end of a 100 car freight and the slack came out, brother, you had better be holding on, or you just might be impaled by the back doorknob. One other basic difference between the freight and passenger units was that the freight units made backwards transition whereas the passenger units didn't. That means that a passenger engineer had to throttle off, while coasting whereas the freight stepped back. Kind of like in a car, when slowing down, if you shifted from 5th to 4th to 3rd, to 2nd, and then back to 3rd, to 4th to 5th. That is why when the Pennsy put the E-7s on the piggyback trains, the engineers "forgot" and flashed some main generators. They quickly pulled the E-7s out of freight service and sent them to Jersey to retire the Baldwin sharks! Oh, yes, the next obvious question is how come the Southern WANTED dynamics on their passenger units. The reason is that SR found they could use dynamic in slowing for curves from high speed on relatively flat terrain, and they didn't much care about the passenger's comfort. Or so I was told at the time. Bill ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes (was Erie-builts,etc) > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 12:45 PM > > In a message dated 5/20/99 8:43:40 AM Central Daylight Time, > LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > > << No diesel purchased by the PRR for purely passenger service had DBs? >> > > Excuse the non-Pennsy thought, but I think the principle applies through > today on Amtrak. Don't believe any Amtrak F40PHs have dynamics, unless some > units out West have them. Anyone know about the Genesis units? > > BTW, anyone know offhand what the "principle" is (i.e., why dyanamic brakes > aren't commonly used on passenger locomotives)? I'm too lazy to put my > rusty engineering hat on to figure it out. I guess I would start with > speeds, gearing, as a factor. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Date: Thu, 20 May 99 15:55:10 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/20/99 3:04 PM, ted.andrews@woolpert.com (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) wrote: > One possible reason why passenger engines may not be typically equipped > with DB's is that passenger trains are very light compared to conventional > freight trains. Also, there are fewer cars in a passenger train than > freight. It would be easier to brake a 10 car passenger train by means of > engine and or car brakes than to brake a 100 car coal train. Being a "young'n" in the PRR group, I'll ask the question, cause I really don't know... I know how to identify the dynamic breaks on most diesels, but what is the difference between dynamic and non-dynamic breaks? (Please write a good explanation and I'll add it to the glossary of terms on "KC".) I seem to gather that dynamics apply breaking at a slower, but consistent rate...kind of like computer controlled...whereas non-dynamics can be equated to hitting the break pedal when the light turns red. I assume that at one time all brakes were the non-dynamic type, but of course weren't called that 'cause you didn't have dynamics to compare them to!!! When were dynamics first placed in use? What about dynamic brakes necesitated the large cooling fans (and thus the overhangs on the bodies of hoods to accomodate them)? Was it correct that switches typically did not have dynamics? Why would some models of GP7's (for example) be purchased with dynamics and some without? Experimentation with early dynamics, perhaps? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:38:16 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes (was The Amtrak F40's in this end of the country (east of New Haven), at least, do/did have dynamics. Not necessarily used without air for normal train handling: they blended in automatically with the automatic air brakes, in addition to the capability of being controlled independent of the air brakes. If you get a cab ride, watch the load meter when the automatic air (train) brakes are applied. It will swing negative into the braking region of the scale. Dynamic brakes are not used to stop trains. They are ineffective below a certain speed, depending on the design of the system, and are used to hold the speed in control on long downgrades. The greatest benefit is reduction of wheel and brake shoe wear and the avoidance of hot wheels resulting from extended periods of downgrade braking. Generally the speed of a passenger train can be more quickly controlled than a freight, further, passenger brakes can be graduated off (partially released), so are more flexible to control. Freight brakes can only be completely released, and running releases (without fully stopping the train) are not always possible or feasible. In freight service, dynamic brakes may be used simultaneously with the air brakes to fine-tune the amount of braking achieved at any given instant. Further, use of dynamic braking may eliminate the need to stop at the tops and bottoms of hills to set up or turn off retainer valves, which are used to hold part of a train's brakes applied while the remainder is released, recharged, and reapplied. Steve Bartlett Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > Excuse the non-Pennsy thought, but I think the principle applies through > today on Amtrak. Don't believe any Amtrak F40PHs have dynamics, unless some > units out West have them. ............... > BTW, anyone know offhand what the "principle" is (i.e., why dyanamic brakes > aren't commonly used on passenger locomotives)? I'm too lazy to put my > rusty engineering hat on to figure it out. I guess I would start with > speeds, gearing, as a factor. > > Bob Zoeller > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:38:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Ed Turner - SE BellSouth District Subject: RE: Dynamic Brakes- was [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day The following information is compliments of "Railway Technical Web Pages": http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8788/us-musp.html Dynamic Brakes Dynamic brakes are easy. Basically you just turn the traction motors into generators and turn the electric power they produce into heat and dissipate it. Contrary to popular belief the motors are NOT put into reverse! Normally, while pulling (motoring) the traction motors are your standard DC motors. The output of the main generator is applied to the traction motor armatures and fields and they "motorvate". However when you change to dynamic braking, heavy duty contacts "re-wire" the motors. The ends of the field windings are connected across the main generator output so that the main generator is applying power only to the fields. The ends of the armature are connected across iron resistance grids. As the train moves down the track, wheels turn the traction motor armature. Since the armature is turning in a magnetic field, created by the field windings powered by the main generator, the armature generates electricity. This electricity flows thru cables up to the resistance grids, the grids get hot using up the electricity. Large blower fans cool the grids to keep them from melting. In principle, the whole thing works similarly for AC drives but the electrics are different. It takes lots of power to turn those armatures to generate all that electricity being thrown away as heat. This power comes from the rolling train thus retarding it. Because the armatures must turn a minimum speed to generate power, you can not stop a train with dynamic brakes. You can only control its speed or slow it down. As you near 12 mph the armatures are turning slowly enough that they generate little power so braking effort drops off rapidly. At higher speeds the amount of braking is controlled by me, the hogger. I move the dynamic brake lever and that in turn controls the output of the main generator which is supplying the traction motor field current. The stronger the fields the more power generated by the rotating armature so the more braking effort you get. Simple ain't it? Actually that is a pretty good description of how it works but in reality it is a little more complicated. Life always is isn't it. I don't really control the output of the main generator directly. My lever controls a rheostat that controls transistors that control the field of the exciter generator. The output of the exciter goes to the field of the main generator and that controls the output of the main generator, which goes into the traction motor fields so the rotating armatures can generate the electricity producing braking effort. Wheeze! Got it? Also various sections of the resistance grids are switched in and out of the circuit to provide different amounts of electrical load thus different braking forces. About the only part of dynamic brakes you can see are the resistance grids and their cooling blowers. On EMD locos they are along the top of the roof of the long hood about in the centre of the loco. That is the "bulge" along the roof line with one or two 36" blower fans on top. Older GEs (U25, U30 era) have the dynamic brake grids mounted in the radiator cooling air intakes on the side of the hoods. You can see them if you look thru the screens. The grid cooling air is supplied by the single large radiator fan on these GEs. Newer GEs and EMDs have a boxy affair mounted high immediately behind the cab. These have their own grid cooling blower. You can tell when any loco is in dynamic braking going down hill because these blowers suck a lot of air and whine. Once in a great while a grid cooling fan will fail or a grid will short circuit. This results in the iron grids actually melting, accompanied by molten slag blowing from the unit and all sorts of arcing and pretty sparks. A great show at night. > Subject: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day > Date: Thu, 20 May 99 15:55:10 -0400 > From: Jerry > To: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.4 by Fog City Software, Inc. > List-Subscribe: > List-Digest: > List-Unsubscribe: > > On 5/20/99 3:04 PM, ted.andrews@woolpert.com (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) > wrote: > > > One possible reason why passenger engines may not be typically equipped > > with DB's is that passenger trains are very light compared to conventional > > freight trains. Also, there are fewer cars in a passenger train than > > freight. It would be easier to brake a 10 car passenger train by means of > > engine and or car brakes than to brake a 100 car coal train. > > Being a "young'n" in the PRR group, I'll ask the question, cause I really > don't know... > > I know how to identify the dynamic breaks on most diesels, but what is > the difference between dynamic and non-dynamic breaks? (Please write a > good explanation and I'll add it to the glossary of terms on "KC".) > > I seem to gather that dynamics apply breaking at a slower, but consistent > rate...kind of like computer controlled...whereas non-dynamics can be > equated to hitting the break pedal when the light turns red. > > I assume that at one time all brakes were the non-dynamic type, but of > course weren't called that 'cause you didn't have dynamics to compare > them to!!! When were dynamics first placed in use? > > What about dynamic brakes necesitated the large cooling fans (and thus > the overhangs on the bodies of hoods to accomodate them)? > > Was it correct that switches typically did not have dynamics? > > Why would some models of GP7's (for example) be purchased with dynamics > and some without? Experimentation with early dynamics, perhaps? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, Systems Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Computer Systems Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6785 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Why no DB on the passenger units? Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:32:46 -0400 Just after i read this letter, my Road Foreman walked in and I confirmed with him (he's off the EL) that the railroads didn't want the slack action on the passenger trains that you typically get from dynamic brake as it existed in the 1950s. With today's blended brake systems where you automatically get dynamic and blended together, its OK and the passengers don't get jolted around. But back in the old days, if you were standing in a caboose at the end of a 100 car freight and the slack came out, brother, you had better be holding on, or you just might be impaled by the back doorknob. One other basic difference between the freight and passenger units was that the freight units made backwards transition whereas the passenger units didn't. That means that a passenger engineer had to throttle off, while coasting whereas the freight stepped back. Kind of like in a car, when slowing down, if you shifted from 5th to 4th to 3rd, to 2nd, and then back to 3rd, to 4th to 5th. That is why when the Pennsy put the E-7s on the piggyback trains, the engineers "forgot" and flashed some main generators. They quickly pulled the E-7s out of freight service and sent them to Jersey to retire the Baldwin sharks! Oh, yes, the next obvious question is how come the Southern WANTED dynamics on their passenger units. The reason is that SR found they could use dynamic in slowing for curves from high speed on relatively flat terrain, and they didn't much care about the passenger's comfort. Or so I was told at the time. Bill ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes (was Erie-builts,etc) > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 12:45 PM > > In a message dated 5/20/99 8:43:40 AM Central Daylight Time, > LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > > << No diesel purchased by the PRR for purely passenger service had DBs? >> > > Excuse the non-Pennsy thought, but I think the principle applies through > today on Amtrak. Don't believe any Amtrak F40PHs have dynamics, unless some > units out West have them. Anyone know about the Genesis units? > > BTW, anyone know offhand what the "principle" is (i.e., why dyanamic brakes > aren't commonly used on passenger locomotives)? I'm too lazy to put my > rusty engineering hat on to figure it out. I guess I would start with > speeds, gearing, as a factor. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] MC Erie-Builts Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:10:31 -0400 Hi All! That's quite a discussion you've got going on there! FYI, Miracle Castings first release of Erie's are Phase V (like the Pennsy had) WITH dynamic brakes, but WITHOUT the steam generator stack. The steam generator stack is just a squarish looking box located just behind the rear-most fan on the roof to the best of my knowledge (See the plan in the Kalmbach Diesel Cyclopedia). If you want to remove the dynamic brakes on our shell, it's quite easy. Just file or sand the 4 small grills on the engineers side of the unit until they're level with the cover plate, and theb cover the sanded area with small square plates with a rivet in each corner. Hope those of you who bought our kit will enjoy them. BTW, if anyone has built one of our kits and has photographed it, I sure would appreciate a copy of any photos for our web site. Regards, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] About Dynamic Breaks (was: Dumb Question of the Day) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Jerry scrivit: > Being a "young'n" in the PRR group, I'll ask the question, cause I really > don't know... > I know how to identify the dynamic brakes on most diesels, but what is > the difference between dynamic and non-dynamic breaks? (Please write a > good explanation and I'll add it to the glossary of terms on "KC".) Jerry, I'll tackle the basic physics principles of the 2 types of brakes. (Experts, please correct me where necessary.) I'll let the locomotive engineers and other handle issues of "handling", which you also bring up. The standard brakes used since time immemorial on railroads are based on mechanical friction of one part on another. Generally, this is the brake shoe on the rolling surface of the wheel, as in your standard locomotive and freight car brakes, whether these are applied in the old old way, by turning the hand-brake wheel, or in the Westinghouse air brake way. Amfleet equipment (and others?) used internally mounted disc brakes, just like your car does on the front (and maybe on the back). All of these devices function basically in the same way. They take mechanical energy -- specifically kinetic, or motion, energy -- and by friction, turn it into heat. Energy is "taken" away from the train, dissipated into the atmosphere, (and thus wasted,) and the train necessarily slows down. As steam locomotives converted heat energy (steam) into mechanical energy (piston movement), and this mechanical energy was _directly_ transmitted to the wheels (via the siderods, etc.), mechanical braking was the simplest solution for these locomotives. Dynamic brakes became an attractive option only with diesel locomotion. Remember that a diesel loco is a (diesel) engine hooked to a generator hooked to traction motors. The generator-motor combination looks like a waste of effort and energy, and it is to some extent, but it provides this locomotive with a completely variable transmission. (Aside: the thing under the hood of your car is an engine, not a motor; by definition, an engine converts heat to motion; a motor converts electricity to motion.) Remember also that a generator is simply a motor running in reverse. We will now take advantage of this fact. What would happen if you reversed the efforts of the traction motors? Instead of supplying them with electricity, let them get their energy from the rolling wheels? They would then turn into generators and produce electricity. To create dynamic brakes, one does exactly this, and in addition, provides a large bank of resistors so that something can be done with all this electricity the traction motors produce. The fans are there to cool the resistors. Forced-air cooling makes energy dissipation (into the atmosphere, as heat) more efficient and allows the use of smaller resistors. Obviously, the roof is the easiest place to put such resistors and fans. So, the moving train turns the wheels, which turn the traction motors, causing them to produce electricity, which is dumped through the bank of resistors, which produce heat, which the fans blow out into the air. This entire process causes the train to slow down. For many, this explanation will "feel wrong". How Can You Slow A Huge Thing Like A Train By Producing A Little Electricity? Those who want to get a good feel for this should try one of these: a) add a generator to your bicycle to run your headlight. Ride the bike with and without the generator. b) visit your local science museum: Franklin Institute, and the science museums of Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Chicago all have exhibits such as this. Find the exhibit where a bike (or whatever) is hooked into a 100-watt light bulb. You have dozens of these around your house, right? Should be easy to keep that puppy lit, right? Try it. Keeping a 100W light bulb will result in exhaustion in less than a minute. You'll be amazed. I'll make only one comment as to handling, then I'll let the railroaders take over. Note that mechanical brakes work throughout the train (though the decrease in air line pressure may take some time to propagate through a long train, and for a while at least, the front of the train is braking while the back of the train is trying to maintain speed). However, dynamic brakes work ONLY on the locomotive. This has resulted in some problems with handling, e.g., downhill (northward) through the B&P tunnels in Baltimore. I suspect this is also the reason why dynamics are turned on quite gradually. I yield the floor to the honored gentleman from PRR. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:39:26 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Hey there Jerry and the list, Well being a youngin myself (34) I can only relate what I know from running a couple of C-425's for the New York and Lake Erie RR here in the Buffalo area (one of which, 6101 was a former PRR unit). Dynamic brakes are actually an "electrical braking system". Basically when in DB the traction motors are turned from motors into generators. Dont ask me to explain the physics because I basically dont know. It has something to do with the way the motors handle the electricity that is passed thru them. In normal operations the main generator makes electricity which powers the traction motors. While in DB mode the traction motors become generators and produce electricity. The resistance that is built up by them is converted into electrical energy which is fed to coils on the top of the engine and the heat they create is dissapated out the top of the unit. The old adage about energy can not be destroyed but it can change forms. Non DB units dont have this capability and rely on air to brake the train. DB's are an engine braking system so only the engine slows down which can cause some serious slack action for the rest of the train. Imagine what happens when you have all the cars rolling along and ONLY the engine stops. All the cars "pile up" against the engines which can make for a rough ride. But in normal braking, all the cars and the locos have their brakes applied at the same time. Dynamic braking was a diesel era innovation. Switchers did not have DB due to the fact they didnt usually attain faster speeds. If you have further questions or need some clarification on what I said please feel free to write. Regards PS The only "real" dumb question is the one that isn't asked! On Thu, 20 May 1999, Jerry wrote: >On 5/20/99 3:04 PM, ted.andrews@woolpert.com (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) >wrote: > >> One possible reason why passenger engines may not be typically equipped >> with DB's is that passenger trains are very light compared to conventional >> freight trains. Also, there are fewer cars in a passenger train than >> freight. It would be easier to brake a 10 car passenger train by means of >> engine and or car brakes than to brake a 100 car coal train. > >Being a "young'n" in the PRR group, I'll ask the question, cause I really >don't know... > >I know how to identify the dynamic breaks on most diesels, but what is >the difference between dynamic and non-dynamic breaks? (Please write a >good explanation and I'll add it to the glossary of terms on "KC".) > >I seem to gather that dynamics apply breaking at a slower, but consistent >rate...kind of like computer controlled...whereas non-dynamics can be >equated to hitting the break pedal when the light turns red. > >I assume that at one time all brakes were the non-dynamic type, but of >course weren't called that 'cause you didn't have dynamics to compare >them to!!! When were dynamics first placed in use? > >What about dynamic brakes necesitated the large cooling fans (and thus >the overhangs on the bodies of hoods to accomodate them)? > >Was it correct that switches typically did not have dynamics? > >Why would some models of GP7's (for example) be purchased with dynamics >and some without? Experimentation with early dynamics, perhaps? > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Thu, 20 May 99 14:04:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes (was Erie-buil One possible reason why passenger engines may not be typically equipped with DB's is that passenger trains are very light compared to conventional freight trains. Also, there are fewer cars in a passenger train than freight. It would be easier to brake a 10 car passenger train by means of engine and or car brakes than to brake a 100 car coal train. Ted Andrews ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes (was Erie-builts,e Author: Bobspf@aol.com at Internet Date: 5/20/99 2:15 PM In a message dated 5/20/99 8:43:40 AM Central Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << No diesel purchased by the PRR for purely passenger service had DBs? >> Excuse the non-Pennsy thought, but I think the principle applies through today on Amtrak. Don't believe any Amtrak F40PHs have dynamics, unless some units out West have them. Anyone know about the Genesis units? BTW, anyone know offhand what the "principle" is (i.e., why dyanamic brakes aren't commonly used on passenger locomotives)? I'm too lazy to put my rusty engineering hat on to figure it out. I guess I would start with speeds, gearing, as a factor. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:05:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day In a message dated 5/20/99 4:04:21 PM Central Daylight Time, alcoman@net.bluemoon.net writes: << Basically when in DB the traction motors are turned from motors into generators. Dont ask me to explain the physics because I basically dont know. >> It is somewhat analagous to putting your car (or 18 wheeler) in low gear going down a hill to slow down. You use the inertia of the engine to slow you down. Your engine heat is dissipated by the radiator whatever gear it is in. In the case of the motor, as William has indicated, the current generated by the motor in generator mode is dissipated through a dummy load of a resistor bank. Blowers cool the resistor bank. At the NMRA convention in Long Beach, I took some video at Cajon Pass which included a UP lashup which came down the hill and actually had to "rest" about halfway down: the blowers couldn't dissipate the heat fast enough. They actually sat about five minutes to let the blowers catch up. At least that is what I could deduce from the scanner traffic. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ted.andrews@woolpert.com Date: Thu, 20 May 99 18:07:11 EST Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day PRR Gang: A real quick way to understand the dynamic brake principle is to get a spare athearn motor (an old washing machine motor would be idea) and turn the armature shaft. The "resistance" that you feel is the metalic armature being resisted by the magnetic field imposed by the magnets. This resistance is the source of dynamic braking. As alcoman described below, this resistance generates electricity which in turn is converted to heat. The dynamic brake blisters coils and fans to get rid of this heat. DB's have advantages over conventional air braking. With the exception of the motor bearings, there really are no motor parts that will wear out since there is no physical contact between the armature and the magnets. Moreover, maintenance is lower and cheaper than air braking. For example, it would be easier to maintain and repair the motors and DB's of a fleet of 100 engines instead of constantly replacing 10's of thousands of freight car brake shoes. Usually, both air and dynamic braking are used in tandem to brake trains. Generally speaking, air brakes can be used to control slack in a train while dynamic braking is used to provide braking after slack is under control. Typically, both air and dynamic braking are used simultaneously to control a train going down hill (i.e. Horseshoe Curve). That is why most mountainous railroads including the PRR were quick to realize the benefits of the dynamic braking. It provided more brake control in areas with sustained grades and curves. It is also the why railroads like the NYC did not get onto the dynamic brake bandwagon since their relative flat system (i.e. water level route) did not mandate the use of DB's. I never was a locomotive engineer but I know that throttling and braking a train given the terrain, speed, and type of train is truely an art and can be very DANGEROUS if not done properly! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana P.S. I too, am a youngin (37) :) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Author: alcoman at Internet Date: 5/20/99 5:37 PM Hey there Jerry and the list, Well being a youngin myself (34) I can only relate what I know from running a couple of C-425's for the New York and Lake Erie RR here in the Buffalo area (one of which, 6101 was a former PRR unit). Dynamic brakes are actually an "electrical braking system". Basically when in DB the traction motors are turned from motors into generators. Dont ask me to explain the physics because I basically dont know. It has something to do with the way the motors handle the electricity that is passed thru them. In normal operations the main generator makes electricity which powers the traction motors. While in DB mode the traction motors become generators and produce electricity. The resistance that is built up by them is converted into electrical energy which is fed to coils on the top of the engine and the heat they create is dissapated out the top of the unit. The old adage about energy can not be destroyed but it can change forms. Non DB units dont have this capability and rely on air to brake the train. DB's are an engine braking system so only the engine slows down which can cause some serious slack action for the rest of the train. Imagine what happens when you have all the cars rolling along and ONLY the engine stops. All the cars "pile up" against the engines which can make for a rough ride. But in normal braking, all the cars and the locos have their brakes applied at the same time. Dynamic braking was a diesel era innovation. Switchers did not have DB due to the fact they didnt usually attain faster speeds. If you have further questions or need some clarification on what I said please feel free to write. Regards PS The only "real" dumb question is the one that isn't asked! On Thu, 20 May 1999, Jerry wrote: >On 5/20/99 3:04 PM, ted.andrews@woolpert.com (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) >wrote: > >> One possible reason why passenger engines may not be typically equipped >> with DB's is that passenger trains are very light compared to conventional >> freight trains. Also, there are fewer cars in a passenger train than >> freight. It would be easier to brake a 10 car passenger train by means of >> engine and or car brakes than to brake a 100 car coal train. > >Being a "young'n" in the PRR group, I'll ask the question, cause I really >don't know... > >I know how to identify the dynamic breaks on most diesels, but what is >the difference between dynamic and non-dynamic breaks? (Please write a >good explanation and I'll add it to the glossary of terms on "KC".) > >I seem to gather that dynamics apply breaking at a slower, but consistent >rate...kind of like computer controlled...whereas non-dynamics can be >equated to hitting the break pedal when the light turns red. > >I assume that at one time all brakes were the non-dynamic type, but of >course weren't called that 'cause you didn't have dynamics to compare >them to!!! When were dynamics first placed in use? > >What about dynamic brakes necesitated the large cooling fans (and thus >the overhangs on the bodies of hoods to accomodate them)? > >Was it correct that switches typically did not have dynamics? > >Why would some models of GP7's (for example) be purchased with dynamics >and some without? Experimentation with early dynamics, perhaps? > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:34:01 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] d-brakes We used to use dynamic brakes on our 1/32 and 1/24 scale slot cars, which were powered by 12 volt DC permag motors, some exactly the same as in the O and HO locos (Pittman DC-195, 65, 85). With the slot car flying down the track towrd curve, we'd let up on the control rheostat and a dead short across the motor was created. The drag on the wheels created by generating all that current into a short-circuit of zero resistance really slowed those little cars down in a hurry. There wasn't enough heat generated to worry about, but if you do this in true-life locomotive scale there is A LOT of heat generated, which is why locomotives have air-cooled resistance grids on the roof. The Virginian RR used to use dynamic braking on their electric locos going down the long grades; as the coal train coasted down hill the traction motors generated current which went up the pantograph, into the wire, and over to the other side of the mountain where it was used to power the trains climbing up, a kind of efficiency impossible with diesel-electric units. -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:29:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day In a message dated 5/20/99 4:03:25 PM EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: << what is the difference between dynamic and non-dynamic brakes? Dynamic braking - the only difference between a motor and a generator is whether you put power IN to create rotary motion or use the motion to create electricity. Turning the motors into generators is not a new idea Trolley cars and electric lines used it from the beginning - putting the electricity generated back into the third rail or the overhead. It's a great argument for electrification. Long before "ecology" was ever heard of railroads saved coal by using the electricity generated by braking trains to generate electricity for use elsewhere. I recall an article in an old "Railroad" magazine - in the years before "slick" paper - about the GN electrification. The author told how he could measure the progress of trains up the grade by watching the power company's meters. They ran rapidly clockwise as the train went up the hill, paused, and ran backwards as the train ran downgrade. (Today this is called "Co-generation") In Diesel locomotives there is no way to turn the electricity back into Diesel fuel so the "energy" must be dissipated somewhere - so it's fed into what amounts to "Toaster" coils where it's converted into heat - which is then disposed of by the blower fans. Non Dynamic brakes - brake shoes on the cars and locomotives - actually do the same thing - converting the rotary motion into heat. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: Answer to [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:22:09 -0400 Jerry: The simplest explanation for dynamic braking is to think of it like you are driving a car with a stick shift. You are speeding along and instead of touching the brake pedal, you shift down to a lower gear. The car's engine then is going faster than the car is (in 4th gear the engine is turning exactly the same speed as the wheels), in 5th gear (i.e. overdrive the engine is actually turning slower than the wheels). Now you slow down in 3rd gear or 2nd but the car will never actually come to a complete stop without you touching the brake pedal and applying friction to the brake disc. That is what the locomotive does only electrically. With today's blended brake systems, when the engineer calls for air brake, the electronic circuitry automatically blends in some dynamic so you get a smooth slowing of the train. WHen the speed gets very very slow, the dynamic automatically fades away and the engineer makes his final stop in the station with air alone. Hope that helps. Bill V. ---------- > From: Jerry > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 3:55 PM > > On 5/20/99 3:04 PM, ted.andrews@woolpert.com (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) > wrote: > > > One possible reason why passenger engines may not be typically equipped > > with DB's is that passenger trains are very light compared to conventional > > freight trains. Also, there are fewer cars in a passenger train than > > freight. It would be easier to brake a 10 car passenger train by means of > > engine and or car brakes than to brake a 100 car coal train. > > Being a "young'n" in the PRR group, I'll ask the question, cause I really > don't know... > > I know how to identify the dynamic breaks on most diesels, but what is > the difference between dynamic and non-dynamic breaks? (Please write a > good explanation and I'll add it to the glossary of terms on "KC".) > > I seem to gather that dynamics apply breaking at a slower, but consistent > rate...kind of like computer controlled...whereas non-dynamics can be > equated to hitting the break pedal when the light turns red. > > I assume that at one time all brakes were the non-dynamic type, but of > course weren't called that 'cause you didn't have dynamics to compare > them to!!! When were dynamics first placed in use? > > What about dynamic brakes necesitated the large cooling fans (and thus > the overhangs on the bodies of hoods to accomodate them)? > > Was it correct that switches typically did not have dynamics? > > Why would some models of GP7's (for example) be purchased with dynamics > and some without? Experimentation with early dynamics, perhaps? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:54:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Jerry: Dynamic brakes are actually a break on the electric traction motors. Through a series of resistor panels electric current is dissipated in the form of heat instead of being applied to the traction motors. One must remember that on a diesel the traction motors produce electricity, i.e., become a generator, once a certain speed without a load is reached. Free wheeling traction motors going down grade actually use gravity and the weight of the train behind the locos to move. Without dynamics the excess electrical power recirculates to the motors thereby increasing the speed of the traction motors. If there are any electrical engineers on the list I am sure they can explain it better than I can and correct my errors. Dynamics are not train brakes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:48:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes In a message dated 5/20/99 3:27:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: > My guess..... > Dynamic brakes imply a gradual stop or slowing - saving the brake shoes > "downhill" passenger trains usually would run right up to a signal or a > station and then apply brakes Also, it was a simple matter to set the retainers on passenger cars and not so simple on a moving freight car. Retainer valves on passenger equipment, at least most of the equipment I rode, were located in the vestibule of each car. On many occasions I saw the conductor going through the cars setting retaining valves for long downhill runs. This would keep the cars from pushing the engines and allow the engines to run full tilt to the stopping point. Kind of rough on the brake shoes, I would think. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:42:25 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Rich and all--- I don't think the traction motors get that much of a rest: They are still carrying current, but it is generated in the motors rather than "used" by the motors. They still require cooling, and the load meter still registers amps. I cannot discuss modern locomotive production, but the older units had a marker triangle on the loadmeter face indicating maximum dynamic brake current, and the brake warning light came on at around maximum current. A train running down grade may be drifting with little or no power applied, or, to keep slack stretched, may actually be pulling against a brake application. In any event, whether in dynamic or in power braking, the locomotive brakes are held released. An independent (locomotive) brake application during dynamic braking can slide wheels, and on long downhill drags with the brakes applied the independent brakes are held released to prevent overheating of the locomotive wheels from brakeshoe friction. It is preferable to put the wear on the car wheels. When drifting with the throttle in Idle there is no current flow in the traction motors. Steve Bartlett SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > Jerry: > > Dynamic brakes are actually a break on the electric traction motors. Through > a series of resistor panels electric current is dissipated in the form of > heat instead of being applied to the traction motors. One must remember that > on a diesel the traction motors produce electricity, i.e., become a > generator, once a certain speed without a load is reached. Free wheeling > traction motors going down grade actually use gravity and the weight of the > train behind the locos to move. Without dynamics the excess electrical power > recirculates to the motors thereby increasing the speed of the traction > motors. If there are any electrical engineers on the list I am sure they can > explain it better than I can and correct my errors. > > Dynamics are not train brakes. > > Rich Orr > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:55:56 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] some other dumb questions,ETTs' and a thank you Hi Folks.... First of all i'd like to thank you all for your responces to my tower post. Virginia is still up and looks like it is just closed. Still standing...windows in place...but no ones home. Now for the dumb questions.... When was Dynamic Braking first introduced...and..if it was at least know it could work in the mid 1930's...was this feature used for GG-1 locomotives...(ok..i know that on electric engines if they have dynamic braking the current is retured to the wire and they don't have to have heat dissapating grids like diesels do). I don't know if they ever had this feature... Ok...and if they don't...Why not ? was it because they were first used as passenger engines... Then...for today...do the E-60's and Aem-7 engines have this? You would think they would for nothing else,but as a back up for the long braking times some of them have (slowing in normal use) because of high speed operation. Hmmmm i wonder if the old Metroliners had dynamic brakes. Now from the Truth is stranger than fiction department..... Has anyone ever noticed the mispelling on the front of late Pennsy and Penn Central employee timetables? It says..."For the Government of Employes" I always though it was supposed to be spelled " Employees " Just a observation. Ok...and lastly...let us not get confused between the eagles that adorned Penn station and the ones from Grand Central. I had also seen where one was found in a garden...but it was one of the Grand Central ones. Have fun you all... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:41:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Dynamic Brakes- was [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day From: Patrick M Egan OK, now lets back up a step. The predecessor concept to dynamic braking is the regenerative braking used on electric locomotives. Milwaukee and (I think) GN used it. Did the Pennsy? Were the E44's dynamic or regenerative braked, or not? Regenerative braking puts the electricity back into the overhead and from there back to the power grid, and reduces the electric bill. This brings a question about regenerative braking. How does it put the current back in the wire? Is the power from the overhead fed to the field, and is the armarature current returned to the overhead, and if so, is the voltage similar to that in the overhead, and how did the motor know it was supposed to brake and not motor? Pat Egan (no web access) On Thu, 20 May 1999 16:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Ed Turner - SE BellSouth District writes: >The following information is compliments of "Railway Technical Web >Pages": > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8788/us-musp.html > >Dynamic Brakes > >Dynamic brakes are easy. Basically you just turn the traction motors >into >generators and turn the electric power they produce into >heat and dissipate it. Contrary to popular belief the motors are NOT >put into >reverse! > >Normally, while pulling (motoring) the traction motors are your >standard DC >motors. The output of the main generator is applied to the >traction motor armatures and fields and they "motorvate". However when >you >change to dynamic braking, heavy duty contacts >"re-wire" the motors. The ends of the field windings are connected >across the >main generator output so that the main generator is >applying power only to the fields. The ends of the armature are >connected across >iron resistance grids. As the train moves down the >track, wheels turn the traction motor armature. Since the armature is >turning in >a magnetic field, created by the field windings powered >by the main generator, the armature generates electricity. This >electricity >flows thru cables up to the resistance grids, the grids get hot >using up the electricity. Large blower fans cool the grids to keep >them from >melting. In principle, the whole thing works similarly for >AC drives but the electrics are different. > >It takes lots of power to turn those armatures to generate all that >electricity >being thrown away as heat. This power comes from the >rolling train thus retarding it. Because the armatures must turn a >minimum speed >to generate power, you can not stop a train with >dynamic brakes. You can only control its speed or slow it down. As you >near 12 >mph the armatures are turning slowly enough that >they generate little power so braking effort drops off rapidly. At >higher speeds >the amount of braking is controlled by me, the hogger. I >move the dynamic brake lever and that in turn controls the output of >the main >generator which is supplying the traction motor field >current. The stronger the fields the more power generated by the >rotating >armature so the more braking effort you get. Simple ain't it? > >Actually that is a pretty good description of how it works but in >reality it is >a little more complicated. Life always is isn't it. I don't >really control the output of the main generator directly. My lever >controls a >rheostat that controls transistors that control the field of >the exciter generator. The output of the exciter goes to the field of >the main >generator and that controls the output of the main >generator, which goes into the traction motor fields so the rotating >armatures >can generate the electricity producing braking effort. >Wheeze! Got it? Also various sections of the resistance grids are >switched in >and out of the circuit to provide different amounts of >electrical load thus different braking forces. > >About the only part of dynamic brakes you can see are the resistance >grids and >their cooling blowers. On EMD locos they are along >the top of the roof of the long hood about in the centre of the loco. >That is >the "bulge" along the roof line with one or two 36" blower >fans on top. Older GEs (U25, U30 era) have the dynamic brake grids >mounted in >the radiator cooling air intakes on the side of the >hoods. You can see them if you look thru the screens. The grid cooling >air is >supplied by the single large radiator fan on these GEs. >Newer GEs and EMDs have a boxy affair mounted high immediately behind >the cab. >These have their own grid cooling blower. You >can tell when any loco is in dynamic braking going down hill because >these >blowers suck a lot of air and whine. Once in a great while a >grid cooling fan will fail or a grid will short circuit. This results >in the >iron grids actually melting, accompanied by molten slag blowing >from the unit and all sorts of arcing and pretty sparks. A great show >at night. >> Subject: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day >> Date: Thu, 20 May 99 15:55:10 -0400 >> From: Jerry >> To: >> Mime-Version: 1.0 >> List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.4 by Fog City Software, Inc. >> List-Subscribe: > >> List-Digest: > >> List-Unsubscribe: > >> >> On 5/20/99 3:04 PM, ted.andrews@woolpert.com >(ted.andrews@woolpert.com) >> wrote: >> >> > One possible reason why passenger engines may not be typically >equipped >> > with DB's is that passenger trains are very light compared to >conventional >> > freight trains. Also, there are fewer cars in a passenger train >than >> > freight. It would be easier to brake a 10 car passenger train by >means of >> > engine and or car brakes than to brake a 100 car coal train. >> >> Being a "young'n" in the PRR group, I'll ask the question, cause I >really >> don't know... >> >> I know how to identify the dynamic breaks on most diesels, but what >is >> the difference between dynamic and non-dynamic breaks? (Please write >a >> good explanation and I'll add it to the glossary of terms on "KC".) >> >> I seem to gather that dynamics apply breaking at a slower, but >consistent >> rate...kind of like computer controlled...whereas non-dynamics can >be >> equated to hitting the break pedal when the light turns red. >> >> I assume that at one time all brakes were the non-dynamic type, but >of >> course weren't called that 'cause you didn't have dynamics to >compare >> them to!!! When were dynamics first placed in use? >> >> What about dynamic brakes necesitated the large cooling fans (and >thus >> the overhangs on the bodies of hoods to accomodate them)? >> >> Was it correct that switches typically did not have dynamics? >> >> Why would some models of GP7's (for example) be purchased with >dynamics >> and some without? Experimentation with early dynamics, perhaps? >> >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS >> >> "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >> Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > >> products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >> the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >> Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >> providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please >visit >> our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >> ------------------------------Thank >you!----------------------------- >> >> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at >http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >-+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- >| Edward F. Turner, Systems Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | >+ Sun Microsystems, Inc., Computer Systems Ph 770 360-6466 + >| 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6785 | >-+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:26:18 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] Dumb Answer of the Day See "answer" below Patrick's question: Patrick M Egan wrote: > > OK, now lets back up a step . . . > > This brings a question about regenerative braking. How does it put the > current back in the wire? Is the power from the overhead fed to the > field, and is the armarature current returned to the overhead, and if so, > is the voltage similar to that in the overhead, and how did the motor > know it was supposed to brake and not motor? > > Pat Egan > (no web access) --The motor motor knows nothing, it is dumb. But the motor will act like a generator if it is spun. The trick is in what happens to the electrical current after it leaves the motor. In a non-braking situation, the spinning motor (being driven by the wheels as the train rolls down hill) creates a potential for current flow due to the motion of the armature inside the motor field. If this potential is fed through wiring into a resistance grid, their is a great deal of heat created. The motor works hard to generate electric current and the torque required to spin the armature increases, thus the braking effect. As a by-product, the electric current either heats up the grid, or is fed up into the catenary, depending on how the wiring is routed in the locomotive. It's all in the wiring! If there is no connection across the field of the motor armature, there is no increase in the torque necessary to spin the motor, so it just free-wheels. As soon as the connection is made and the potential to generate current is tapped, wham, the rotational resistance shoots up and you have brakes....and heat. The motorman (oops, I mean engineer) must throw a switch to determine whether the current flows out of the motor or stays inside. And the generated voltage is similar to the voltage required to run the motor at speed (usually around 600 volts DC on typical railroad traction motors). -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:00:43 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] some other dumb questions,ETTs' and a thank you Howdy All: None of the PRR A/C motors had dynamic/regenerative braking. This would include the L6, O1, P5 and the GG1 classes. The DD1 was straight D/C The FF1 had 4 three phase motors - voltage was changed by a rotary converter that could return voltage to the overhead. These motors where not straight A/C - more then likely they had a commutator on the rotor for D/C voltage out. The L5 and variants - The straight D/C jobs more than likely could - the ones built or converted to A/C - not sure because I can't figure out what the conversion method was. The B1 (BB2 & BB3) don't count - D/C motored - but regen not a big thing in switching cars. Starting with the O1 and sub classes all PRR motors where A/C motored. O1a, b & c, L6 and L6a, P5, a & b, R1, GG1 and the DD2. Your basic A/C motor has no way of generating current from the rotor. The FF2 could and was specifically designed to, although in its use as a pusher, I doubt if this feature was used often. The E2b was a straight A/C motor. The E3b & E3c utilized the then new Ignitron tube (or liquid state electronics) to convert the A/C to D/C. This process did not work in reverse. However, being D/C motored these units more then likely had dynamic brakes. The E44 and E44a had the same liquid/solid state conversion as the E3 series. Since these engines had resistor speed controllers, dynamic brakes again. They were known as Hoovers for good reason - high volumes of air to kept those resistors cooled. cos wsbcos.com bubbles@visi.net wrote: > When was Dynamic Braking first introduced...and..if it was > at least know it could work in the mid 1930's...was this feature > used for GG-1 locomotives...(ok..i know that on electric engines > if they have dynamic braking the current is retured to the wire > and they don't have to have heat dissapating grids like diesels > do). I don't know if they ever had this feature... > > Ok...and if they don't...Why not ? was it because they were > first used as passenger engines... > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] some other dumb questions,ETTs' and a thank you Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:57:48 -0400 (EDT) > Now from the Truth is stranger than fiction department..... > Has anyone ever noticed the mispelling on the front of > late Pennsy and Penn Central employee timetables? > It says..."For the Government of Employes" > I always though it was supposed to be spelled " Employees " > Just a observation. Hank et al, this is a Pennsy quirk. It's not a misspelling, just a very rare, though permitted, spelling in English. "employe" and "employee" are words borrowed from French, all thanks to William of Normandy, Battle of Hastings, 1066 'n' all that, you know. The convention in English became, for whatever reason lost to history, to borrow the _feminine_ from from French. Don't ask me why. Just is. In French, employe' (that's an e with an accent aigu for all you ASCII-challenged types) is the masculine form, employe'e is feminine. Both are the past participle forms of the verb employer. In similar fashion, we use "naive" (feminine), not "naif" (masculine), and many other examples. Some borrowings, e.g. rouge, are invariant. The only one I can think of where we took the masculine is blanc (=white), which we respelled as blank. Why did PRR go with "employe"? Perhaps because 99% of them were male? That's my best guess. -- Mark P.S. Anyone desiring references and my justification for daring to reply is invited to write to me. Happy to provide all you want. "Dry" doesn't _begin_ to describe the stuff I can provide you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: Dynamic Brakes- was [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:05:16 -0400 (EDT) > OK, now lets back up a step. The predecessor concept to dynamic braking > is the regenerative braking used on electric locomotives. Milwaukee and > (I think) GN used it. Did the Pennsy? Were the E44's dynamic or > regenerative braked, or not? Regenerative braking puts the electricity > back into the overhead and from there back to the power grid, and reduces > the electric bill. Don't know if that's a predecessor, really, but so be it. > This brings a question about regenerative braking. How does it put the > current back in the wire? If not set up to divert the electricity (to resistors), the power will be delivered back through the entire system. "The system" (the locomotive) is simply running in reverse. > Is the power from the overhead fed to the > field, and is the armarature current returned to the overhead, and if so, > is the voltage similar to that in the overhead, and how did the motor > know it was supposed to brake and not motor? Some of this is too detailed for me to reply to. I'll tackle the last one. The motor does not "know" anything. It simply is. It's only a motor because you set it up to act that way (by feeding it electricity), and it's only a generator later because you (as engineer) set it up to act _that_ way (by feeding it mechanical motion). You may be having trouble understanding this because there are 2 English words to describe one physical object. That thing is _both_ a motor _and_ a generator at the same time, physically speaking. The words really are not a description of the _item_ so much as they are a description of _how it is acting right now_. Does that help? The diesel engine, on the other hand, cannot be reversed. By turning the crankshaft, you will not take in CO2 and water through the exhaust manifold and you will not produce octane and oxygen. It is truly a one-way machine. The motor/generator is a 2-way machine. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:21:59 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Company Policy Yes, It's True... Even General Motors made it "company policy" to use the "employe" version of the word. But then, that was not the only unusual practice the most arrogant corporation on the planet shared with others. It is "not" nice to know that PRR and GM had that in common...seems a bad reflection...on the PRR. Mark Bej wrote: > > > Now from the Truth is stranger than fiction department..... > > Has anyone ever noticed the mispelling on the front of > > late Pennsy and Penn Central employee timetables? > > It says..."For the Government of Employes" > > I always though it was supposed to be spelled " Employees " > > Just a observation. > > Hank et al, > this is a Pennsy quirk. It's not a misspelling, just a very rare, though > permitted, spelling in English. > > "employe" and "employee" are words borrowed from French, all thanks > to William of Normandy, Battle of Hastings, 1066 'n' all that, you know. > > The convention in English became, for whatever reason lost to history, > to borrow the _feminine_ from from French. Don't ask me why. Just is. > In French, employe' (that's an e with an accent aigu for all you > ASCII-challenged types) is the masculine form, employe'e is feminine. > Both are the past participle forms of the verb employer. > > In similar fashion, we use "naive" (feminine), not "naif" (masculine), > and many other examples. Some borrowings, e.g. rouge, are invariant. > The only one I can think of where we took the masculine is blanc (=white), > which we respelled as blank. > > Why did PRR go with "employe"? Perhaps because 99% of them were male? > That's my best guess. > > -- > Mark > > P.S. Anyone desiring references and my justification for daring to reply > is invited to write to me. Happy to provide all you want. "Dry" doesn't > _begin_ to describe the stuff I can provide you. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me drop some e's." *Visit my "Panther Den" web site at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/TheDen.htm *The Central Indiana Post Polio Support Group's web site can be found at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/PPSG.htm >From All of Us, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Dynamic Brakes- was [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day From: Fred G Rea Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:14:35 EDT As a retired EE I'll join the DB discussion. ANY electric motor is also a generator. When the are running they generate an internal voltage proportional to their speed. The current they draw is proportional to the difference between that internal, speed dependant voltage and the supply voltage. If the internal voltage is less than the supply voltage they draw a positive current and apply torque in the direction of rotation. This means power is going from the supply to the load. If the motor speeds up so the internal voltage is greater than the supply, the current, the torque, and the power change directions. The torque will then tend to slow the load. No switches, levers or any thing. It is just the way it is. Now as many others have said, in an electric loco the "negative" energy would go back to the overhead and actually tend to raise it voltage a little. In a diesel electric it would cause the generator to become a motor and increase the speed of the diesel. This is not good. Instead contactors are used to apply resistors that turn the "extra" energy into heat. A good analogy would be to drive a car in hilly terrain and keep your foot on the gas to hold a moderate speed up a hill and keep the transmission in a lower gear. On the way up all is fine, after the crest the car will begin to speed up. With out moving your foot the RPM will go up and the car will be retarded (dynamically braked) from the speed it would achieve in neutral. A final note neither a loco nor the car would come to a stop with this breaking. As the speed drops the dynamic breaking drops. There would be a low speed at which it would continue to coast until friction brakes are applied. This all becomes a bit more complicated if the motors in question happen to be AC. They also generate an internal voltage but if a very large breaking load occurs they may loose the ability to pump energy back to their power source. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] some other dumb questions,ETTs' and a thank you Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:26:23 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 21 May, Mark Bej wrote: > [ ... ] > The only one I can think of where we took the masculine is blanc (=white), > which we respelled as blank. Well, except for my great-aunt Blanche. :-) Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger units WITH dynamic brakes Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:25:25 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 20 May, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > [ ... ] On many occasions I saw the conductor going through the cars setting > retaining valves for long downhill runs. This would keep the cars from > pushing the engines and allow the engines to run full tilt to the stopping > point. Kind of rough on the brake shoes, I would think. Brake shoes are treated as disposable; the shop tracks outside N.Station in Boston have several crates of them, each the size of my stove, along each side of all tracks. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Regenerative braking on the Virginian RR Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:54:18 -0400 You are correct that the Virginian and Norfolk and Western both regenerated power back into the wire for use by trains coming uphill. HOWEVER. (And I do not profess to be an Electrical Engineer) the secret in the sauce is that those railroads (and the Pennsy too) had their own isolated power plants where phasing of the power into the wire apparently was not a problem. Today, the subway and light rail lines draw power from local substations fed directly by the local power plant that supply the outside world. So even though they CAN regenerate power back into the line, they don't. Besides the local power company has no use for DC power anyway. ---------- > From: Livingston > To: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] d-brakes > Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 7:34 PM > > We used to use dynamic brakes on our 1/32 and 1/24 scale slot cars, > which were powered by 12 volt DC permag motors, some exactly the same as > in the O and HO locos (Pittman DC-195, 65, 85). With the slot car > flying down the track towrd curve, we'd let up on the control rheostat > and a dead short across the motor was created. The drag on the wheels > created by generating all that current into a short-circuit of zero > resistance really slowed those little cars down in a hurry. There > wasn't enough heat generated to worry about, but if you do this in > true-life locomotive scale there is A LOT of heat generated, which is > why locomotives have air-cooled resistance grids on the roof. > The Virginian RR used to use dynamic braking on their electric locos > going down the long grades; as the coal train coasted down hill the > traction motors generated current which went up the pantograph, into the > wire, and over to the other side of the mountain where it was used to > power the trains climbing up, a kind of efficiency impossible with > diesel-electric units. > -- Robert Livingston > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Those pesky dynamic brake questions Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:45:46 -0400 All the discussion about dynamic brake is mind boggling but interesting takes. So here's mine............ The delivery of the E-44s in 1960-62 with dynamic brakes was in a way a Godsend to the coal train operations between Enola and S. Philadelphia. The P-5s and GG-1s did not have them and the Westinghouse rectifier sets were in the sick bay too much to matter. So the P-5sand GG-1s had to do the job. If you recall, the P-5s had 72 inch drivers with T I R Es swetted onto them. Now you figger. What happens when you rub a brake shoe on a tire for miles and miles and miles while you are braking a coal train down a long grade? Right o. They get hot and came LOOSE from the wheel. And yes, a bunch of them fell off. Grades you ask? Where the hell is there a grade between Harrisburg and Philadelphia? Well, when you are at Paoli station with a coal drag, if you could see 21 miles away, you would be looking DOWN on Billy Penn's statue atop Silly Hall, Philadelphia! Now, believe it or not that is a grade. It took a seasoned veteran at the controller and brake handle to bring a 100 car coal train down that grade and remember it was in the late 1950s that all those H-36s and H-39s started carring not 50 tons per car, but 100 tons per car. Many's the time we took a loose tire off a P-5 in the winter and put a new one on in the unheated Enola roundhouse, (you had to use a 72inch diameter micrometer and measure the i.d. of the tire and the o.d. of the driver and figger out how big a shim to put in between with the tire changing diameter every time somebody opened the shop door to the cold outside! So more than once, we miscalculated and put too thick a shim under the tire and had the tire B R E A K out on the road. Which meant we had to chain the driver up off the rail and tow the P-5 back to Enola for a new tire. The Gs were great on fast freights but on coal trains, they had a helluva time starting because of the low starting torque on the AC motors. The old addage was "A G can haul a train it can't start, and a diesel can start a train it can't haul." Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:05:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Regenerative braking on the Virginian RR In a message dated 5/21/99 2:39:58 PM Central Daylight Time, herzog@icanect.net writes: << Besides the local power company has no use for DC power anyway. >> Unless Commonwealth Edison still furnishes some DC to downtown Chicago buildings as they did when I was in my college days (my father's office used a AC/DC fan for this reason). Getting off topic,now .:-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:35:29 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] FF1 Overbrook-Paoli Question about the FF1, retired in 1940: Bill Volkmer wrote: > Grades you ask? Where the hell is there a grade between Harrisburg and > Philadelphia? > > Well, when you are at Paoli station with a coal drag, if you could see 21 > miles away, you would be looking DOWN on Billy Penn's statue atop Silly > Hall, Philadelphia! Now, believe it or not that is a grade. Thanks to Bill V. for a fascinating discussion of tire changing on the 72" drivered electrics. Now, my question is about the 72" drivered FF1, the huge one-of-a-kind side rodder over those same grades from Overbrook to Paoli. This big one was built in 1917 and immediately exiled to pusher service. Are there any stories about this motor during the last years of its life? Photos anywhere? Beside the handful of builder's photos and a few in Pennsy Power I and II I've heard or seen nothing. What did it look like during the last years? The reason I ask is that I have a smooth running brass model in HO and it simply wears a coat of faded, oxidized DGLE (done with an overspray airbrush technique borrowed from the model tank guys). Was there anything distinctive about the appearance or performance of the FF1 in the last few years of service? -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:09:29 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] some other dumb questions,ETTs' and a thank you y mi Tia Bianca--- (just had to....) Esteban Bartlett Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > On 21 May, Mark Bej wrote: > > > [ ... ] > > The only one I can think of where we took the masculine is blanc (=white), > > which we respelled as blank. > > Well, except for my great-aunt Blanche. :-) > > Dennis > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:55:12 -0700 Obviously dynamic brakes were introduced with the diesel era. But in theory, the same principle should have been possible in the steam era. Instead of using the expansion of steam in the cylinders to power the drivers, the train's momentum via the drivers could have been used to compress air in the cylinders. Does anyone know if there were any attempts at this type of thing? Maybe the valve work would be too complicated, I don't know. Maybe cooling the cylinders would be a problem. Here in Washington state, some trucks are equiped with compression brakes, which is exactly the same process. Entering certain towns you'll see signs stating that unmuffled compression brake use prohibited. It's a real interesting sound. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] FF1 Overbrook-Paoli Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:07:10 -0700 Except that between Rosemont and Bryn Mawr is deceptively upgrade. I understand from my father that many coupler knuckles were broken from engineers that didn't take this short section into account in their train handling. John > Bill Volkmer wrote: > > > Grades you ask? Where the hell is there a grade between Harrisburg and > > Philadelphia? > > > > Well, when you are at Paoli station with a coal drag, if you could see > 21 > > miles away, you would be looking DOWN on Billy Penn's statue atop Silly > > Hall, Philadelphia! Now, believe it or not that is a grade. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Rochon" Subject: [PRR] PRR Class ND Cabin Cars Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:02:18 -0400 A local hobby shop (Peach Creek Shops in Laurel, MD) is offering brass models of PRR Class ND cabin cars. My question for the list is, were any of these cars in service in the Baltimore area in the mid-1940s? Any information (including quantities and numbers) would be greatly appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 09:40:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR)P-RSL In a message dated 5/18/99 12:57:27 PM Central Daylight Time, dzt10@amdahl.com writes: << Did the P-PSL buy its diesel paint from the Pennsy? Pictures that I have of the AS-16's et.al. seem to show a light greenish tinge to them. I did a GP-38 kitbash and painted it black and it just didn't look "right" I stripped it and repainted it in DGLE and it looked closed to the pictures. Any help? Regards, Dick Taylor Dalbo MN. >> Dick & folks, I don't think the green you noticed was an illusion. Back in the 60's I used to see a number of the Atlantic City trains at North Philley and Frankford Jct, and the Baldwins seemed to have a greener , more "Brunswick" look to them than pure Pennsy stuff. When I used to work in South Jersey in 1974, I'd often take the Lindenwold Line out to Cherry Hill, and the line was built on the old PRSL right of way out from Broadway Station. Once you got out a ways, the PRSL (probably from Pavonia Yard) joined the Lindenwold right of way and ran parallel very closely. I'd often see PRSL freights with the newer units (GP-38's or whatever, my diesil knowledge stopped with the first generation). There is no doubt about the greenish cast to those units and you could see the green without stretching the imagination, as you often had to with Pennsy units. (I'll avoid the unending bs about Brunswick green's appearance on various Pennsy units, and leave it to the viewer's photo sources). But there is no doubt about the newer units being quite green. By the way, where in the heck is Dalbo, MN? Barry Peltier St. Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:15:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Regenerative braking on the Virginian RR On Fri, 21 May 1999, Bill Volkmer wrote: > Today, the subway and light rail lines draw power from local substations > fed directly by the local power plant that supply the outside world. So > even though they CAN regenerate power back into the line, they don't. > Besides the local power company has no use for DC power anyway. Not true; The Port Authority here in Pittsburgh turned on the regenerative feature of their LRVs some time ago; It made the local news and there was a newspaper story about it. But I digress... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Cut leverl question Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:19:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA43C.976934C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, all, In a recent discussion with a fellow modeler, he raised the question of = the various types of cut leves used on freight cars in the 20th century. = This got me thinking and looking at PRR photos, which show many of the = early steel cars having a lever that you pushed down on so that it = raised the uncoupling pin from above. Was this another PRR standard? = Later cars (built closer to WWII) have the more conventional levers that = you pull up to release the pin. In fact, was there any national = standard on this? Anyone got any info? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA43C.976934C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, all,
 
In a recent discussion with a fellow modeler, he = raised the=20 question of the various types of cut leves used on freight cars in the = 20th=20 century.  This got me thinking and looking at PRR photos, which = show many=20 of the early steel cars having a lever that you pushed down on so that = it raised=20 the uncoupling pin from above.  Was this another PRR = standard?  Later=20 cars (built closer to WWII) have the more conventional levers that you = pull up=20 to release the pin.  In fact, was there any national standard on=20 this?  Anyone got any info?
 
George N. Pierson
e-mail:  = george.pierson@trnty.edu
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA43C.976934C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 22 May 99 10:38:38 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] Phila to Paoli Grade Anyone who thinks that there is no grade between Phila. and Paoli never saw an I1 pushing freight out on the Main Line. I am sure the PRR didn't just use these pushers to put SOOT on the catenary. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 16:11:58 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] FF1 faded DGLE Jerry Breon asked about the paint job described below: > >What did it look like during the last years? The reason I ask is that I > >have a smooth running brass model in HO and it simply wears a coat of > >faded, oxidized DGLE (done with an overspray airbrush technique borrowed > >from the model tank guys This was accomplished thusly: First, a coat of DGLE was applied. I was using Floquil Dio-sol based paints in those days (around 1986) and they did have a Brunswick Green available. It matched the descriptions of DGLE and the restored cars and engines in the Strasburg PA rail museum. That is, it was almost black. Some Diesel bronze-gold PENNSYLVANIA decals then went on the sides, to match the builder's photos. The second step was to load the airbrush with a greener hue, which I recall was a dark green Floquil used to make with a slight bluish cast This was sprayed on the roof eaves and down onto the rivet lines and, for a change here and there, onto the centers of panels outlined by rivets. The body took on a variegated look, with the rivet lines accentuated irregularly. It also simulated a waviness to the car body plating, which an old body would acquire through "working" (flexing) as it aged. This step simulated "oxidization," because in my experience of old green paint it tends toward blue as it ages and it becomes lighter. Now, I do not claim that PRR DGLE acts that way; for all I know they always repainted this engine before such aging took place. The third step was to put a fine mist of Floquil Engine Black and another even finer mist of Grimy Black (which is actually dark gray) down onto the roof, with a few random streaks (very faint) down onto the sides. There were no obvious rainwater runoff points so I didnt put any rust streaks on the sides. If I saw any in photos I'd put 'em on. The last step was to go over the cab ends with a touch of medium brown here and there to simulate where the paint was knocked off the ends and the steel rusted. This was done with a regular brush, not the air brush. Side rods and underframe never got done! The frame and wheels, and siderods will be fairly greasy (dark green, brown, and a little amber) over the original nickel plate. Some light sand around the sander nozzles on the wheel rims. The underframe/wheels/rods would be the same as on any steam locomotive that was dirty. > > -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 15:37:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Class ND Cabin Cars In a message dated 5/22/99 11:28:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BERochon@email.msn.com writes: > A local hobby shop (Peach Creek Shops in Laurel, MD) is offering brass > models of PRR Class ND cabin cars. My question for the list is, were any of > these cars in service in the Baltimore area in the mid-1940s? Any > information (including quantities and numbers) would be greatly appreciated. > They were still being used in work trains on the Pittsburgh Division into the 50's. I have no information on the Baltimore area. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] D 78 BR Diner Paint Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 14:04:43 -0700 I am currently painting a D 78 BR Diner in the 1930s scheme with the brown roof and dark green underbody. I have two questions about the paint scheme. 1. The paint scheme calls for orange sash windows. Does this also apply to the smaller windows of the kitchen area? Does it also apply to the door windows? 2. What color is the interior paint scheme for the 1930s? I have most currently available PRR literature including nearly all of the Keystone magazines. If someone can point me to a source I may be able to read for myself. Thanks, Greg Stone PRRT&HS member with special interest in the Renovo Yards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:13:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cut leverl question In a message dated 5/22/99 10:27:55 AM Central Daylight Time, george.pierson@trnty.edu writes: > In a recent discussion with a fellow modeler, he raised the question of the > various types of cut leves used on freight cars in the 20th century. This > got me thinking and looking at PRR photos, which show many of the early steel > cars having a lever that you pushed down on so that it raised the uncoupling > pin from above. Was this another PRR standard? Later cars (built closer to > WWII) have the more conventional levers that you pull up to release the pin. > In fact, was there any national standard on this? Anyone got any info? > George: AAR Interchange Rule 88 states "Coupler Operating Levers of the rotating type handle (which pulls out and up through an arc) required on all cars." FRA Safety Appliance and Power Brakes Law still show couplers with top operated lock lifters but with the rotating type uncoupling lever. I am not sure when the lever type uncoupling lever was banned but suspect it was because it was easier to inadvertently operate the lever than it is those which require a lifting/rotating movement to operate. Maybe someone who has a collection of old AAR Interchange Rule books can verify the date when they were banned. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:44:34 -0500 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR)P-RSL Beside my failing memory and somewhat questionable Ectachrome slides, You might look at the back cover of Kramer's P-RSL book. That GP-38 is greenish black if anything! Dalbo is about halfway between Princeton and Cambridge up "norf". It takes a REAL detailed map to show it! Regards, Dick Taylor Suburban Dalbo, MN > > >> > Dick & folks, > I don't think the green you noticed was an illusion. Back in the 60's I used > to see a number of the Atlantic City trains at North Philley and Frankford > Jct, and the Baldwins seemed to have a greener , more "Brunswick" look to > them than pure Pennsy stuff. When I used to work in South Jersey in 1974, I'd > often take the Lindenwold Line out to Cherry Hill, and the line was built on > the old PRSL right of way out from Broadway Station. Once you got out a ways, > the PRSL (probably from Pavonia Yard) joined the Lindenwold right of way and > ran parallel very closely. I'd often see PRSL freights with the newer units > (GP-38's or whatever, my diesil knowledge stopped with the first generation). > There is no doubt about the greenish cast to those units and you could see > the green without stretching the imagination, as you often had to with Pennsy > units. (I'll avoid the unending bs about Brunswick green's appearance on > various Pennsy units, and leave it to the viewer's photo sources). But there > is no doubt about the newer units being quite green. > By the way, where in the heck is Dalbo, MN? > Barry Peltier > St. Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 20:00:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Cut leverl question From: Patrick M Egan George, I remember seeing cars with push down cut levers on the Markham hump (good place to see cut levers used) in the 1950's. I have been told in more recent years - maybe the 1970's or 1980's, that they were outlawed. This says at least they were legal in the 1950's. Given the Pennsy's attitude about spending money to change things, I expect they stayed on the cars to the bitter end. Pat Egan On Sat, 22 May 1999 10:19:35 -0500 "George N Pierson" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA43C.976934C0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Hi, all, > >In a recent discussion with a fellow modeler, he raised the question >of = >the various types of cut leves used on freight cars in the 20th >century. = > This got me thinking and looking at PRR photos, which show many of >the = >early steel cars having a lever that you pushed down on so that it = >raised the uncoupling pin from above. Was this another PRR standard? >= >Later cars (built closer to WWII) have the more conventional levers >that = >you pull up to release the pin. In fact, was there any national = >standard on this? Anyone got any info? > >George N. Pierson >e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu > >------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA43C.976934C0 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
Hi, all,
>
 
>
In a recent discussion with a fellow modeler, he = >raised the=20 >question of the various types of cut leves used on freight cars in the >= >20th=20 >century.  This got me thinking and looking at PRR photos, which = >show many=20 >of the early steel cars having a lever that you pushed down on so that >= >it raised=20 >the uncoupling pin from above.  Was this another PRR = >standard?  Later=20 >cars (built closer to WWII) have the more conventional levers that you >= >pull up=20 >to release the pin.  In fact, was there any national standard >on=20 >this?  Anyone got any info?
>
 
>
George N. Pierson
e-mail:  >= >href=3D"mailto:george.pierson@trnty.edu">george.pierson@trnty.eduNT>
> >------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA43C.976934C0-- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Carey Subject: [PRR] ODQ -- "employe" Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:32:18 -0600 "Employe" is not necessarily a PRR or GMC quirk. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary lists it as an alternate spelling. Most railroad once used the "employe" spelling, including Santa Fe (1983 ETT), Burlington (1964 ETT), Union Pacific (1967 ETT), Rio Grande (1979 Rules of the Operating Department), B&O (1951 Union Shop Agreement), Penn Central (1971 ETT), Rock Island (1967 ETT), New Haven (1968 ETT), and New York Central (1956 ETT). DL&W was confused -- it used "employee" in 1954 (Rules of the Marine Department) but reverted to "employe" in 1959 (ETT). Dave Carey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 01:33:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day Hey Yuze Gize, Now Pennsy may not have had switchers with Dynamic Brakes but the Southern Pacific did. The energy created by the "reversing action" of the polarity in the traction motors turning them into generators was displaced in the Dynamic Brake "grids" which are metal resistors created a tremendous amount of heat and required either a grilled opening like on the EMD F-3 or better yet a fan like the EMD F-7. Remember ALCo's did not have a fan they had resistors and a series of square ducts on he roof. Greg Martin In a message alcoman@net.bluemoon.net writes: << Dynamic braking was a diesel era innovation. Switchers did not have DB due to the fact they didnt usually attain faster speeds. If you have further questions or need some clarification on what I said please feel free to write. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Dynamics Thread Date: Sun, 23 May 99 09:32:58 -0400 From: Jerry Thanks to all who provided input on Dynamic Brakes. I will combine responses as best I can, as some address the mechanical workings while others address the applications, etc. Stay tuned. Again, thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:20:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Class ND Cabin Cars The May 1957 roster available on Keystone Crossings searchable data bases lists four ND cabins in service in the Pittsburgh region. Before you commit the cash, do some research. Four-wheeled cabins were outlawed in Ohio as of 1919. Did Maryland have a similar law? Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 03:13:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) PA/B's and other thoughts Ron and All, For the most part they are correct. I could nit pick them apart, but what is the point. When my article is written I will correct the things that set them apart from the stock Life Like models. But all changes are time sensitive, changes are made by the Pennsy shops to make them more easily maintained, so what I do to mine may not reflect on your stock Like Life models just because they changed cosmetically. I think if you are satisfied with what you bought, so be it. I want everyone to be able to pick up my article and learn a bit about the PRR ALCo (PA/B-1's) AP-20/AFP-20's from when they entered the property until when they were retired. Then be able to share in my modeling. My personal favorite paint scheme is when they hit the property in DGLE (Brunswick Green). But, it was such a popular release with Life Like (I think they could make another run and sell out again) that whether or not the paint was the correct color or that the stripes were they right color, how could I get anyone's attention, and why bother to write the article? So, I have done something totally different than you might expect. So if you haven't bought a pair I say buy at least and A/B set or and A/A set. Greg Martin Watching from way out In the Pac Nor West where whales are treated like Indians and the Indians are acting like Cowboys! In a message mrkerch@gte.net writes: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 23:50:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Class ND Cabin Cars In a message dated 5/23/99 9:44:32 PM Central Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << Do you, or does anyone on the list for that matter, know what happened to that last N6A? >> I do not. Wish I did. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:23:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Class ND Cabin Cars In a message dated 5/23/99 8:39:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << At least the last N6A was headquartered out here so I can defend that on my roster :-). >> Do you, or does anyone on the list for that matter, know what happened to that last N6A? I'm preparing a construction article covering the Gloor craft kits. My N6A will be a cabin in pre-1927 livery on the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern. the lone Pennsy tunnel west of Columbus, the CL&N tunnel was large enough to let the N6As pass beneath Cincinnati's Walnut Hill to reach downtown Cincinnati. Unfortunately not only are all N6as gone but so is the tunnel. Interstate 71 runs through a cut on its site but runs through another tunnel about a mile south of the walnut hill tunnel. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:29:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] RAILFANNING PHILLY An "off list" friend is planning to visit the Philadelphia for Conrail's final weekend - Memorial Day, appropriately. Any suggestions for spots to see "weekend" action and/or spots to avoid reply direct or to: sroten@aol.com Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:31:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Class ND Cabin Cars In a message dated 5/23/99 11:52:43 AM Central Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << The May 1957 roster available on Keystone Crossings searchable data bases lists four ND cabins in service in the Pittsburgh region. >> I had always been under the impression that Pittsburgh was the last stand for these cabins. However, it doesn't prevent me from having one on my Chicago Division roster. I just think they are neat! At least the last N6A was headquartered out here so I can defend that on my roster :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:33:21 -0400 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] ND cabins in use As a matter of interest, *Caboose Data Book #2 - Cabin cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island RR* by N.J. International shows four photos of class ND cabin cars with the note that they were "introduced by Lines East in 1903, had a steel underframe, and some were rebuilt as NDa with redesigned underframes to allow use of 4-wheel trucks." One photo shows ND 478119(?) coupled between an H-class Consolidation with a large cast-frame (F30?) PRR flat carrying a large GE transformer. Date is suggested by an automobile of early 1940's shape in the background, location unknown, but under catenary. Next photo shows ND 475843/NEW YORK ZONE in Newark, NJ July '39, with a flag (white?) stuck in the coupler knuckle. What is the (diesel?) engine to which it is coupled? Third photo shows ND 476010/EASTERN REGION in a yard under catenary again, with a round-roof all steel box car (SEABOARD Orange Blossom) behind it, giving us a late '30's to mid '40's date, I guess. All three cabins seem to be in good repair. A fourth photo in Camden shows an ND weathered so much the white lettering is nearly gone, and the photo is in color, so I guess this is a 1950's or later shot. This one may be out of regular service. -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:35:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Conemaugh & Johnstown On Sun, 23 May 1999 CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > I just got my new MS book, on page 117 are some great photo's of Conemaugh. > How much of this, the mills and the railroad, still exists? If there's > anything left looks like I need to plan a detour to the area in August. Todd Most off the Johnstown mills are still there, and there's still a yard at Conemaugh... I don't have the book, but a trip to Johnstown is certainly worth it. The city still looks significantly like all of the 50's/60's pictures I've seen. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:06:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Conemaugh & Johnstown I just got my new MS book, on page 117 are some great photo's of Conemaugh. How much of this, the mills and the railroad, still exists? If there's anything left looks like I need to plan a detour to the area in August. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:44:09 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: [PRR] Re: Quality/Gloor Craft cabin kit tips (was ND cabins) LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > After I get these done I tackle the N8 -- both TYCO kitbash and QC > embossed brass and wood kit. > > Tom V. We-e-e-LL!! As Jack Benny used to say! It just so happens that I have tried the Tyco bash twice. I had an awful time getting the roof pieces to same level. Tried to use styrene squares to provide a level roof line. Then, on the first try (had never tried a kitbash before) had a problem with keeping the floor line level. Glad I walked into a shop a few years ago and they had a pile of Tyco's on consignment got them for $.50 to $1. I now have a box full of bodies and underbodies for my feeble attempts. Even found several with the preferred metal floor for $1. Now, everyone wants from $3 to $4. Then, last fall, I found a completed kitbash at a Greenburg show in Mass. and got it for $7.50. I don't like the paint and the decals are loose, so I plan to redo it. I can probably get a picture of it if you think it would be useful/helpful. I found an N8 Gloorcraft kit in Toronto, and scooped it. It's still waiting for my attention. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Dynamic Brake on Switchers Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:46:28 -0400 The Lehigh Valley had some switchers with dynamic brake which I believe they used to the coal mines near Delano. Coos Bay Lumber Company had at least one that wound up on the U.S. Sugar line in Clewiston, Florida where there are HEAVY grades of at least 0.00001%! ---------- > From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com > To: alcoman@net.bluemoon.net; jerry@dsop.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day > Date: Sunday, May 23, 1999 1:33 AM > > Hey Yuze Gize, > Now Pennsy may not have had switchers with Dynamic Brakes but the Southern > Pacific did. The energy created by the "reversing action" of the polarity in > the traction motors turning them into generators was displaced in the Dynamic > Brake "grids" which are metal resistors created a tremendous amount of heat > and required either a grilled opening like on the EMD F-3 or better yet a fan > like the EMD F-7. Remember ALCo's did not have a fan they had resistors and > a series of square ducts on he roof. > > Greg Martin > > In a message alcoman@net.bluemoon.net writes: > > << Dynamic braking was a diesel era innovation. Switchers did not have DB > due to the fact they didnt usually attain faster speeds. If you have > further questions or need some clarification on what I said please feel > free to write. > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: (PRR) PA/B's and other thoughts Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:30:41 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 24 May, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > [ ... ] When my article is written > I will correct the things that set them apart from the > stock Life Like models. But all changes are time sensitive, > changes are made by the Pennsy shops to make them more > easily maintainedk [ ... ] I'm sure we're all looking forward to that article! Be sure to let us know when it appears! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 08:35:19 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR)P-RSL BPX29@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/18/99 12:57:27 PM Central Daylight Time, > dzt10@amdahl.com writes: > > << Did the P-PSL buy its diesel paint from the Pennsy? Pictures that I > have of the AS-16's et.al. seem to show a light greenish tinge to them. > I did a GP-38 kitbash and painted it black and it just didn't look > "right" I stripped it and repainted it in DGLE and it looked closed to > the pictures. > Any help? > > Regards, > Dick Taylor > Dalbo MN. > >> > Dick & folks, > I don't think the green you noticed was an illusion. Back in the 60's I used > to see a number of the Atlantic City trains at North Philley and Frankford > Jct, and the Baldwins seemed to have a greener , more "Brunswick" look to > them than pure Pennsy stuff. > Barry Peltier > St. Paul, MN > Well, there are others out there more tuned to this than I, but the P-RSL had 4 (I think, Gladulich book is at home) AS-16's painted a brighter green than DGLE in the early 50's. They quickly became known as the "Green Hornet's." I queried Paint Shop of MR a few years back and the editor opined that it was close to Scalecoat NP Green. The builder's photo's also showed them delivered, or at least photo-ed (sic), with white walls!! Sort of like your average 50-ish Ford Victoria or Chevy Bel-Air. They ran on the AC line only. They were repainted three or four years after delivery to the P-RSL's DGLE. When they ran through Mt. Ephraim on the Grenloch line, I always thought they were black. But, hey, at that young and tender age, I was only interested in counting cars and collecting the pressed pennies from the rails after the train passed. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cut leverl question Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:43:19 -0400 THe top operating couplers were outlawed about 1960. The old GLAs, H-21s and GLs had them at the end. I would imagine the big reason they were outlawed is because a person could STEP on the release lever and cut the train. It was not uncommon for the under-riding cut levers to swing back and forth violently on rough track and cause the train to part, particularly on the TTX cars. Bill ---------- > From: JDPanza@aol.com > To: george.pierson@trnty.edu; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Cut leverl question > Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 9:13 PM > > In a message dated 5/22/99 10:27:55 AM Central Daylight Time, > george.pierson@trnty.edu writes: > > > In a recent discussion with a fellow modeler, he raised the question of > the > > various types of cut leves used on freight cars in the 20th century. This > > got me thinking and looking at PRR photos, which show many of the early > steel > > cars having a lever that you pushed down on so that it raised the > uncoupling > > pin from above. Was this another PRR standard? Later cars (built closer > to > > WWII) have the more conventional levers that you pull up to release the > pin. > > In fact, was there any national standard on this? Anyone got any info? > > > George: > > AAR Interchange Rule 88 states "Coupler Operating Levers of the rotating type > handle (which pulls out and up through an arc) required on all cars." FRA > Safety Appliance and Power Brakes Law still show couplers with top operated > lock lifters but with the rotating type uncoupling lever. I am not sure when > the lever type uncoupling lever was banned but suspect it was because it was > easier to inadvertently operate the lever than it is those which require a > lifting/rotating movement to operate. Maybe someone who has a collection of > old AAR Interchange Rule books can verify the date when they were banned. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Searching For Aliens Date: Mon, 24 May 99 13:10:59 -0400 From: Jerry This is totally (almost) tanget to PRR, but I post it because...oh, yeah, I'm the listmaster! If anyone cares, there is a distributed computing project going on whereby users can download a screen saver that, when they are not using their computer, will evaluate and analyze small packets of data recorded by the radio telesope at Arecibo and report this data back to the central processing center. By distributing the processing, the central team is able to look at multitudes more data than they ever could have looked at on their own. What are they looking for? Extraterrestrial life, of course! The project is called SETI@home and you can read all about it at: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ Screen savers are available for Mac, Windows, and UNIX machines. Okay, so why did I post this to the list? Because individual users can have their results compounded into "team" results. I have created "Team PRR"! Go to the above link. Download the software for your machine and set it up with your user name, etc., as instructed. Then return to the above page. In the "Use SETI@home" section, select "Teams". Search for the "Team PRR". On the team page, click on "Join Team". The distributed computing project started 5/17. I've been running it since 5/19 and have had absolutely no side effects from the software. BTW: My SETI user name is "Corbomite", taken from the original Star Trek series. Okay, I'm a geek! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR)P-RSL Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:36:26 -0400 I remember back when I worked on the Pennsy and my kids were little, I used to save the baby food jars and give out samples of Brunswick Green paint to the doubting Thomases to prove to them that the stuff was green. I will admit that after a few months with no wash job, it sure looked black. But trust me, it was green. I think they bought the stuff from Sherwin Williams, and I'd imagine that the PRSL just ordered the same paint from the same manufacturer. There must have been enough to go around. ---------- > From: BPX29@aol.com > To: dzt10@amdahl.com > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR)P-RSL > Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 9:40 AM > > In a message dated 5/18/99 12:57:27 PM Central Daylight Time, > dzt10@amdahl.com writes: > > << Did the P-PSL buy its diesel paint from the Pennsy? Pictures that I > have of the AS-16's et.al. seem to show a light greenish tinge to them. > I did a GP-38 kitbash and painted it black and it just didn't look > "right" I stripped it and repainted it in DGLE and it looked closed to > the pictures. > Any help? > > Regards, > Dick Taylor > Dalbo MN. > >> > Dick & folks, > I don't think the green you noticed was an illusion. Back in the 60's I used > to see a number of the Atlantic City trains at North Philley and Frankford > Jct, and the Baldwins seemed to have a greener , more "Brunswick" look to > them than pure Pennsy stuff. When I used to work in South Jersey in 1974, I'd > often take the Lindenwold Line out to Cherry Hill, and the line was built on > the old PRSL right of way out from Broadway Station. Once you got out a ways, > the PRSL (probably from Pavonia Yard) joined the Lindenwold right of way and > ran parallel very closely. I'd often see PRSL freights with the newer units > (GP-38's or whatever, my diesil knowledge stopped with the first generation). > There is no doubt about the greenish cast to those units and you could see > the green without stretching the imagination, as you often had to with Pennsy > units. (I'll avoid the unending bs about Brunswick green's appearance on > various Pennsy units, and leave it to the viewer's photo sources). But there > is no doubt about the newer units being quite green. > By the way, where in the heck is Dalbo, MN? > Barry Peltier > St. Paul, MN > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 04:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day ---John Cooper wrote: > > Obviously dynamic brakes were introduced with the diesel era. But in > theory, the same principle should have been possible in the steam era. > Instead of using the expansion of steam in the cylinders to power the > drivers, the train's momentum via the drivers could have been used to > compress air in the cylinders. Does anyone know if there were any attempts > at this type of thing? I believe some such arrangement was installed on one or two steam locomotives for use on the 5.whatever percent grade at Madison, Indiana. I read somewhere, not necessarily pertaining to the Madison grade, that the weak point in such schemes was the tendancy of the air to be contaminated with grit which wore the cylinders and pistons rapidly. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:54:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gloor Craft Cabin kits, was ND cabis In a message dated 5/24/99 10:27:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Postmaster@dsop.com writes: << Hi Tom, Since this is the second inquiry I've received about my N6 project I'm posting my response to PRR Talk. Well, I know where I'm submitting my article but I can't say where it will be published until I get it finished and the models done. I broke a finger a month ago and am now just beginning g to get back the strength and flexibility needed to model. Although I've never seen the ND/NDa kit up close, I believe they are very much the same kit just differing in the shape of some parts. I'm building four of the five N6 variations and may very well scratch build the fifth. Two N6b are Quality Craft/Gloor craft kits (same kit, just different marketer) and a third will be scratch built. The fourth is a Gloor Craft N6a kit. I'm trying to get as complete drawings of all variations and in particular am looking for drawings of the underframe. The variations are: N6a and N6b offset "Lines West" (N6a) or "Panhandle" (N6b) cupolas (rebuilt from all wood NC, NE and NEa cabins) N6b offset Panhandle cupola and "Walleyed" windows (rebuilt from tiny NB bobbers, placing side windows and cupola 18"-20" closer to car ends) N6a and N6b centered cupola (built new). Choices of Lettering and car numbers for all PRR wood-bodied cabin cars are: All Lines East cabins were renumbered beginning 1916 All Lines West cabins were renumbered in April 1920 1914-1954 car body and roof FCC although asphaltum was applied to roof 1954-1968 car body FCC, roof and underframes asphaltum. This is from observation only. Painting specs. contained in circular issued in Altoona on Dec. 8, 1954. I'm still looking for a copy. 1914-1920 Pennsylvania Lines 1920-1924 Pennsylvania (no lines) {after 1920, all PRR cabins lettered the same] 1924-1927 Pennsylvania w/line (line above road name) 1927-1954 Pennsylvania w/2 lines (above road name, below car number) 1930 Keystone on the ball herald (Circle Keystone) No known use but design was briefly approved 1940-1954 MOW, Battleship gray with black lettering 1954-1968 Shadow Keystone, Large Pennsylvania above windows* * road name below windows on NB rebuilds and some others, refer to your prototype photos 1954-1968 MoW, Yellow car sides, asphaultum on roof and underframe, black lettering, road name or reporting marks only, no herald refer to your photos I'm almost attempting to compile a full roster, before and after 1920. A few words of advice for those eyeing their kits: Cover the back of the wood with masking tape to reduce splitting and to keep parts together if wood does split. Do NOT try to cut out door and window openings in four cuts. Reduce the chance of splitting cut slots in the openings to allow your blade to displace to wood being removed. Clear the openings in sections. Bruce Smith, a Pennsy missionary to the Lone Star State was the source of this sage piece of advice. DO READ the instructions carefully before starting. Have some 1/32" thick basswood with 1/32" scribing on just in case . you get so excited you want to scratch build a second model. DON'T WAIT After I get these done I tackle the N8 -- both TYCO kitbash and QC embossed brass and wood kit. Tom V. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:06:30 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Searching For Aliens "No such team found." . . . ??? Jerry wrote: > > This is totally (almost) tanget to PRR, but I post it because...oh, yeah, > I'm the listmaster! > > If anyone cares, there is a distributed computing project going on > whereby users can download a screen saver that, when they are not using > their computer, will evaluate and analyze small packets of data recorded > by the radio telesope at Arecibo and report this data back to the central > processing center. > > By distributing the processing, the central team is able to look at > multitudes more data than they ever could have looked at on their own. > What are they looking for? Extraterrestrial life, of course! The project > is called SETI@home and you can read all about it at: > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ > > Screen savers are available for Mac, Windows, and UNIX machines. > > Okay, so why did I post this to the list? Because individual users can > have their results compounded into "team" results. I have created "Team > PRR"! > > Go to the above link. Download the software for your machine and set it > up with your user name, etc., as instructed. Then return to the above > page. In the "Use SETI@home" section, select "Teams". Search for the > "Team PRR". On the team page, click on "Join Team". > > The distributed computing project started 5/17. I've been running it > since 5/19 and have had absolutely no side effects from the software. > > BTW: My SETI user name is "Corbomite", taken from the original Star Trek > series. Okay, I'm a geek! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me e-mail my friends." *Visit my "Panther Den" web site at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/TheDen.htm *The Central Indiana Post Polio Support Group's web site can be found at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/PPSG.htm >From All of Us, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:57:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] corbomite maneuver Jerry wrote, amoung other data, "BTW: My SETI user name is "Corbomite", taken from the original Star Trek series. Okay, I'm a geek!" Well, Jerry, I won't comment on that, but you might want to cast your votes over at scifi.com for your favorite episodes to be shown over Memorial Day Weekend. Far as I remember, though , none of the episodes invovle Harrisburg or Enola, I'm afraid. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:23:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cut lever question In a message dated 5/24/99 1:04:14 PM EST, herzog@icanect.net writes: << The top operating couplers were outlawed about 1960. The old GLAs, H-21s and GLs had them at the end. I would imagine the big reason they were outlawed is because a person could STEP on the release lever and cut the train. >> From reading John Teichmoeller's hopper cars seriers these "reverse action" cut levers were called "Carmer cut levers" From the fact that they were named, it is safe to assume that they were patented - and probably purchased from an outside vendor Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:37:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Cut lever question > From reading John Teichmoeller's hopper cars seriers these "reverse >action" cut levers were called "Carmer cut levers" From the fact that they >were named, it is safe to assume that they were patented - and probably >purchased from an outside vendor Etched metal (aluminum?) Carmer cut levers are available from Sunshine Models (direct sales only: P.O. Box 4997, Springfield OH 65808-4997) and are VERY nice (and replace the very delicate resin ones in Westerfield and F&C kits) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:31:09 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Searching For Aliens I have always sort of felt we might be better off if other space inhabitants did not find us...think about it... Steve Bartlett Jerry wrote: > >................... > What are they looking for? Extraterrestrial life, of course! .......... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:20:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cut lever question Is Sunshine Models in Springfield, Ohio? I was thinking it was Springfield, MO, as in the Frisco Lines. Please advise, as I'd like to get some of those nifty lift levers. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:02:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] corbomite maneuver Hey Jerry, I thought ALL references to obscure and arcane topics related to ALL cult TV shows of which most of us have watched far too many episodes were absolutely banned after the Spanish Inquisition struck when none of knew it was going to strike back in 1997. But now that you mention it, I hadn't noticed we were nearing the fringes of Federation space, Cap'tn. Boot Ahl'll giv' 'er awl she's got. . . oh, darn see what happens. . . Spam, spam, spam, spa. . . "Jim, we dare not," how can I control. . . "In Five seconds the penguin on top of your TV is going to explod. . . This Tom V. signing off while I still. . . "It's Logical, Capt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:00:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day In a message dated 5/24/99 2:08:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << I believe some such arrangement was installed on one or two steam locomotives for use on the 5. whatever percent grade at Madison, Indiana. >> Ahem, it's 6.89 percent. It rises more than 400 feet vertically in less than 7,000 feet horizontally It's a very impressive but wholly unnecessary engineering feat done at the direction of some rather shortsighted people 160 years ago. But the sight of a 200-foot high one-track embankment entering the face of a 400-foot high cliff through a limestone cut dug by hand is not one I'll easily forget. Tom V/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:12:14 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Class ND Cabin Cars There is a steel underframe bobber sitting in front of the passenger station in New Oxford, PA. I described it for a member of this list a coupl'a'years ago and he allowed as how I was describing a ND cabin. Don't know if it was the last of the active class, but ... Vagel Keller --On Sunday, May 23, 1999, 11:50 PM +0000 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/23/99 9:44:32 PM Central Daylight Time, > LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > > << Do you, or does anyone on the list for that matter, know what happened to > that last N6A? >> > > I do not. Wish I did. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: SET@home Date: Tue, 25 May 99 08:43:16 -0400 From: Jerry I received numerous replies yesterday about the SETI@home project...that the group "Team PRR" did not exist. I received a bulk messgae from the SETI center yesterday that they had problems with the group database. All group definitions remained, but all memberships were purged. I had to re-add myself this morning. All previous stats were intact. You can join the effort at this point, and follow the links to join "Team PRR". Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:45:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Class ND Cabin Cars In a message dated 5/25/99 10:19:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << There is a steel underframe bobber sitting in front of the passenger station in New Oxford, PA. I described it for a member of this list a coupl'a'years ago and he allowed as how I was describing an ND cabin. Don't know if it was the last of the active class, but ... Vagel Keller >> Your hunch is right, Vagel, there is at least one other ND. The Railroad Museum of Illinois has an ND that they're planning to start restoration of later this year. It is not one of the eight in service in 1957. It was purchased in 1957 from a company in Pittsburgh which had been using it for a guard shack for a number of years. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:48:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb Question of the Day In a message dated 5/25/99 12:07:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CENTGA writes: << Tom, I think that should be 5.89%, and yes I agree it is a feat of construction work. Todd Horton >> You got me there. Wrapped my tongue 'round my eye teeth and couldn't see what I was saying. But 6% or 7% it's steep. Tom V. "I've climbed THE HILL" (and so did you, Todd. I've got the negatives to prove it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:05:28 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] OH(io) NO! Not OH, but MO! was Cut Lever Question OKAY, OKAY!!! The Ph.D. is in GENETICS, not CARTOGRAPHY!!! >Etched metal (aluminum?) Carmer cut levers are available from Sunshine >Models (direct sales only: P.O. Box 4997, Springfield OH 65808-4997) and ^^ should be: Sunshine Models, P.O. Box 4997, Springfield MO 65808-4997 Sorry for the mix-up! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Searching For Aliens Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:24:43 -0400 Jerry, Please put yourself in the penalty box....Remember Your Words>>>>ONLY PRR! Last time I checked...Star Trek wasn't PRR Thanks, Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: Jerry > To: prr-talk > Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Searching For Aliens > Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 1:10 PM > > This is totally (almost) tanget to PRR, but I post it because...oh, yeah, > I'm the listmaster! > > If anyone cares, there is a distributed computing project going on > whereby users can download a screen saver that, when they are not using > their computer, will evaluate and analyze small packets of data recorded > by the radio telesope at Arecibo and report this data back to the central > processing center. > > By distributing the processing, the central team is able to look at > multitudes more data than they ever could have looked at on their own. > What are they looking for? Extraterrestrial life, of course! The project > is called SETI@home and you can read all about it at: > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ > > Screen savers are available for Mac, Windows, and UNIX machines. > > Okay, so why did I post this to the list? Because individual users can > have their results compounded into "team" results. I have created "Team > PRR"! > > Go to the above link. Download the software for your machine and set it > up with your user name, etc., as instructed. Then return to the above > page. In the "Use SETI@home" section, select "Teams". Search for the > "Team PRR". On the team page, click on "Join Team". > > The distributed computing project started 5/17. I've been running it > since 5/19 and have had absolutely no side effects from the software. > > BTW: My SETI user name is "Corbomite", taken from the original Star Trek > series. Okay, I'm a geek! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:49:32 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Spruce creek Hi Harold and any one else out in PRR land, Harold, thanks for the great info you sent me on Spruce Creek. I'm looking for pictures now of the Spruce Creek area. I'd be willing to reimburse for copying costs and such. Thanks, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] corbomite maneuver Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:32:28 -0400 Where does the PRR fit into this? Your rules Jerry........ TV, space !!!!!!! where's the baby stories ? Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > To: BPX29@aol.com; jerry@dsop.com > Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] corbomite maneuver > Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 8:02 PM > > Hey Jerry, I thought ALL references to obscure and arcane topics > related to ALL cult TV shows of which most of us have watched far too many > episodes were absolutely banned after the Spanish Inquisition struck when > none of knew it was going to strike back in 1997. > > But now that you mention it, I hadn't noticed we were nearing the > fringes of Federation space, Cap'tn. Boot Ahl'll giv' 'er awl she's got. . . > oh, darn see what happens. . . Spam, spam, spam, spa. . . "Jim, we dare not," > how can I control. . . "In Five seconds the penguin on top of your TV is > going to explod. . . This Tom V. signing off while I still. . . "It's > Logical, Capt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:27:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] The Madison Hill and its engines In a message dated 5/25/99 12:43:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 5/24/99 2:08:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << I believe some such arrangement was installed on one or two steam locomotives for use on the 5. whatever percent grade at Madison, Indiana.>> According to Richard Jacobs' article in the December 1983 Keystone, several H6sb 2-8-0's were equipped by the Columbus, OH shops with cylinder compression-control and other unique goodies including extra sand boxes for running backwards in Madison Hill service. Engines were required to be on the downhill end of the train, but in steam days I believe this also implied backing down the grade to keep the crown sheet covered with water. If I read the article and photo captions right, the assigned/equipped engines included: H6sb 8851 1939 H6sb 8329 1940 H6sb 9012 1941 H6sb 9989 1952 (likely 9978, 9979 as well on the Jan 1, 1952 roster) By the early 50s, these H6sb's were among the last 5 on the PRR roster, and were replaced by three H10s engines similarly equipped, which were in turn replaced by PRR's two SD7's (class ES15a), known to have extra braking cylinders and rail washers and ballast to 397000 pounds for an astonishing 66,167 pounds loading per axle. By the end of the Pennsy, the Employee Timetable instructions had increased from the paragraph cited in Dick's article to a rule almost a page long dealing with descending the Hill. The Jack Fravert collection has yielded several Madison Hill photos, including prints of what appear to be curious little tank engines from before 1900, photos showing part of the octagonal roundhouse that once stood at the top of the grade, and lots of passengers (excursionists?). On the other hand, another shot is an overhead of PRR 8589 (SD7) bringing a 3 car train and an N6b caboose downgrade. On the front deck are 3 men with coats, ties, and hats, which makes you wonder if this is one of the SD7's first runs. << >> Ahem, it's 6.89 percent. It rises more than 400 feet vertically in less than 7,000 feet horizontally It's a very impressive but wholly unnecessary engineering feat done at the direction of some rather shortsighted people 160 years ago. But the sight of a 200-foot high one-track embankment entering the face of a 400-foot high cliff through a limestone cut dug by hand is not one I'll easily forget. >> Tom, You might want to document the source of your 6.89% figure. On the 1968 PRR track chart, it simply shows 5.89%, falling from 863.2 feet to 462.0 feet (sure enough, a 400 foot drop). Dick Jacobs' article shows more detailed track segments of (from the top) 5.41, 5.76, 5.99, 5.40, 5.83, 6.06, 5.89, and 5.68%. The 6.06% segment is only 700' long, but the 5.99% segment is 2150'. The whole hill is a 1.45 mile tangent, plus 162' of curve at the bottom. For those of you who have never visited Madison Indiana, it is one of the oldest towns in Indiana. It lies right down on the Ohio River, with bluffs rising right behind it up to the fairly flat Indiana farmland to its north. In 1834(?) it probably seemed like a good idea to build a railroad from Madison, a power in the steamboat trade, into the interior of the state. By the 50s/60s/70s, what was left was a Pennsy branch that ambled out of Columbus Indiana (on the Indianapolis-Louisville line) southeast, crossed the B&O at North Vernon, and finally came to a tiny village named, logically enough, North Madison. North Madison had a station, roundhouse, and very small yard. At the south end of all this, the mainline passed a derail and took a swan dive off down the famous steep cut. Drainage from the rock cut forms a pretty good creek on each side of the track, and some of the curb stones protecting the roadbed from this rushing water looked like they could be original. It's been commented that this is prime rattlesnake country, although the day I was there in the 70's, none came out for photography. For the less adventurous, the cut is crossed by a stone arch bridge toward the middle, plus one or two highway bridges right at the bottom of the hill. The Madison Hill is the kind of place where those stories you hear of "every year insert a rail length at the top of the hill and take one out at the bottom" seem almost believable. What I did find at the bottom, on the 4 degree 30 minute curve, was a series of switches made by Weir Frog Co around 1897. Once it arrives down on the Ohio River's flood plain, the track turned about 90 degrees and went upstream into the center of town. BTW, Dick Jabobs' article also cites RLHS Bulletin #123, Locomotives for the Madison Hill by Elmer G. Sulzer. There may also be material in Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Indiana, recently back in print. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:56:35 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Wye...It's Obvious... Why... It's obvious..."Team PRR." Put your glasses back on...or go get some. Just call me "Quirky" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ boxcar46 wrote: > > Where does the PRR fit into this? Your rules Jerry........ > TV, space !!!!!!! where's the baby stories ? > Bill > > (boxcar46@nfdc.net) > End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. > > ---------- > > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > > To: BPX29@aol.com; jerry@dsop.com > > Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] corbomite maneuver > > Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 8:02 PM > > > > Hey Jerry, I thought ALL references to obscure and arcane topics > > related to ALL cult TV shows of which most of us have watched far too > many > > episodes were absolutely banned after the Spanish Inquisition struck when > > > none of knew it was going to strike back in 1997. > > > > But now that you mention it, I hadn't noticed we were nearing the > > fringes of Federation space, Cap'tn. Boot Ahl'll giv' 'er awl she's got. > . . > > oh, darn see what happens. . . Spam, spam, spam, spa. . . "Jim, we dare > not," > > how can I control. . . "In Five seconds the penguin on top of your TV is > > going to explod. . . This Tom V. signing off while I still. . . "It's > > Logical, Capt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me point out the obvious." *Visit my "Panther Den" web site at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/TheDen.htm *The Central Indiana Post Polio Support Group's web site can be found at: http://home.att.net/~mcrim1361/PPSG.htm >From All of Us, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:34:09 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Pennsy Book From: "Doug and Marianne" Kalmbach has announced a new PRR book on Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet. Due July '99. Sounds interesting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:29:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Mea Culpa (was The Madison Hill and its engines) Rick and the list-- Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea a thousand times culpa. Yes, I know it's not 6.89 percent. But I learned it's 6.06%, at least that's something. I think copperheads are more likely than rattlesnakes. Do what Todd Horton, Larry Morgan and I did back in 1997. Go in December. We walked up and back in the snow. You mentioned the octagonal engine house at the top of the Hill that's no longer there but you didn't mention the octagonal depot at the east end of the line along the river bank that still is there. It survived the 1997 flood and contains a museum. If you're in the area, about 50 miles southwest -- downstream -- from Cincinnati on the north bank of the Ohio, it's definitely worth an afternoon. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] NY&LB operations Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:29:10 -0400 I'm becoming curious about the PRR and CNJ ops on the NY&LB. Frequently my father has taken me to watch the current operations to the coast at Linden and Rahway. How many trains did each RR run on the line? What block towers where located on the line? Where they staffed by PRR or CNJ employees? thasnks. -Josh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:27:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cut lever question In a message dated 5/24/99 6:09:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Etched metal (aluminum?) Carmer cut levers are available from Sunshine Models (direct sales only: P.O. Box 4997, Springfield OH 65808-4997) and are VERY nice (and replace the very delicate resin ones in Westerfield and F&C kits) >> That's a Missouri zip code, I believe. OTOH I'll bet mail sent out with that address would be delivered to Sunshine in Springfield MO. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 26 May 99 03:08:14 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] NY&LB operations In 1951 I was stationed at Ft. Monmouth and as I recall the split was about even between the two railroads. It was all steam in those days with PRR K4 engines and CNJ camel backs. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PSU Altoona Railroad Conference Date: Wed, 26 May 99 10:13:40 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/26/99 9:02 AM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: >http://www.outreach.psu.edu/ace/RailroadHeritage/ > >Hope to see some of you during the conference. There you go again, travelling far and away to attend PRR stuff! (For those not aware, Drew lives by the Brickyard in Altoona...a short bike ride from the Horseshoe Curve or the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum and, this August, the annual convention of the PRRT&HS. Must be nice!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] corbomite maneuver WAY TANGENT Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:07:22 -0400 (EDT) LINESWEST@aol.com scrivit: > > Hey Jerry, I thought ALL references to obscure and arcane topics > related to ALL cult TV shows of which most of us have watched far too many > episodes were absolutely banned after the Spanish Inquisition struck when > none of knew it was going to strike back in 1997. > > But now that you mention it, I hadn't noticed we were nearing the > fringes of Federation space, Cap'tn. Boot Ahl'll giv' 'er awl she's got. . . > oh, darn see what happens. . . Spam, spam, spam, spa. . . "Jim, we dare not," > how can I control. . . "In Five seconds the penguin on top of your TV is > going to explod. . . This Tom V. signing off while I still. . . "It's > Logical, Capt Having met Tom, I'm having a wonderful time imagining him writing this. But then again, I'm a doctor, not a poet, dammit! For those who would like them, I have managed to pull off the Internet, back when it was young and few could even spell "www", and back when people knew that just because Microsoft favors "\", it remains a _backslash_, and NOT a [forward] slash, and back when Web pages were experiments hacked together at 0200-0300 under the influence of glucose, caffeine, salted potato chips, and cacao byproducts, transcriptions, and I must add unofficial ones, of _Holy Grail_ and _Life of Brian_, which I will gladly provide to all of you living in this autonomous collective and not voting for King, who may desire your own copy. I trust the Chaucer's first sentence in _Canterbury Tales_ is still longer than the one I just wrote. Whan that Aprille withe his shoures soote, the drought of Marche hath perced to the roote, and bathed euery veyne in swiche licour, of which vertue engendered is the floure, ... -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:02:39 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] PSU Altoona Railroad Conference Greetings to the group, Some of you may know that Penn State Altoona has hosted a railroad conference on and off for the last decade or so. As in past years, it will be held over Father's Day weekend; June 17-20. This year's conference, "The Railroad in Art, Music and Literature" will be co-chaired by Peter Barton, executive director of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, and James Porterfield, author and Penn State adjunct professor. It will focus on the social, cultural, and technological impacts the railroad has had on American life. If you would like more information, please go to the following URL. http://www.outreach.psu.edu/ace/RailroadHeritage/ Hope to see some of you during the conference. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:47:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] corbomite maneuver WAY TANGENT Mark writes: << and I must add unofficial ones, of _Holy Grail_... which I will gladly provide to all of you>> Mark and all whom partake in Monte Python: Remember this forever: What is your quest? What is your favourite colour? What is the glide speed of a swallow? And further more... "we want shrubbery's!" "Shrubbery's?" "Yes, beautiful little shrubbery's!" Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB operations Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:31:23 -0400 I remember we got a letter from an irate housewife complaining that the PRR was making an alcoholic out of her husband because when the trains broke down, which she insisted was too frequently, her husband would come home anebriated because he chose to ride in the bar car. Well, it was the Jersey Central's fault with those Fairbanks Morse locomotives, MAAM. Our Baldwin sharks always ran like Swiss watches. And did you know that there was a special car, number 1734, lettered North Jersey Commuters Club that had a cabinet in the end where the club members kept their stash of cups, mugs, glasses, and booze? It was a stock P-70fbr but kept in much better condition than the rest. As a point of trivia, the 1730 series cars had an experimental Honeywell heating system during my watch, that was inpossible to get parts for. Bill V. ---------- > From: PETER TYRRELL JR. > To: Talk PRR > Cc: tktrower@earthlink.net > Subject: [PRR] NY&LB operations > Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 3:08 AM > > In 1951 I was stationed at Ft. Monmouth and as I recall the split was about > even between the two railroads. It was all steam in those days with > PRR K4 engines and CNJ camel backs. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:24:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Schuylkill Branch Are there any publications that deal with the Schuyklkill branch around the 1950s? The only thing I've been able to find is a short chapter in 'On The Main Line', but that deals with the 1800s. Thanks, Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Schuylkill Branch Date: Wed, 26 May 99 13:36:00 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/26/99 1:24 PM, JOELPRR@aol.com (JOELPRR@aol.com) wrote: >Are there any publications that deal with the Schuyklkill branch around the >1950s? The only thing I've been able to find is a short chapter in 'On The >Main Line', but that deals with the 1800s. Don't have a copy at hand, but there's the "Centennial History of the PRR", written circa 1948 by Burgess and Kennedy. Would probably have some use to you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Circus Train on Line Date: Wed, 26 May 99 15:49:18 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/26/99 2:24 PM, Alan Buchan (abbuchan@familyconnect.net) wrote: >>A Contract has been issued for the handling in Special Freight Train >>Service, Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey Combined Shows Red Unit >>Circus Train, Consisting of 4 Stock, 33 Passenger, 2 Container, and >>17 Flats, a total of 56 cars as outlined below: >> >> CIR201 >> ------ >> Hershey, PA to Lexington, KY >> Via: CR-Cincinnati-CSX >> >>Event Location Train Time Date >>RL Hershey-CR YdCrew 1930 ET Mon 31-May >>LV Hershey YdCrew 2030 ET Mon 31-May >>AR Harrisburg YdCrew 2130 ET Mon 31-May - Add coaches, I may be able to be there. Too bad it's at night...would be great to photograph coming into Harrisburg off the Reading interchange! >> etc. >>LV Harrisburg-NS CIR201 0600 ET Tue 01-Jun - Hold for 0600 >> DEP Eh, gotta go to work. Too bad. Hmmm. Maybe I could be late and stake it out at Rockville Bridge? >>PS CP-Cannon CIR201 0630 ET Tue 01-Jun >>AR Altoona CIR201 1030 ET Tue 01-Jun - Water Stock >>LV Altoona CIR201 1230 ET Tue 01-Jun Okay, Drew, load the camera with film and head up to the Curve...we all know it's in your backyard! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: Circus Train on Line Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:24:22 -0400 Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:48 AM Subject: CIR - Hershey to Lexington >Philadelphia, PA May 26, 1999 >II Commerce Square >A Contract has been issued for the handling in Special Freight Train >Service, Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey Combined Shows Red Unit >Circus Train, Consisting of 4 Stock, 33 Passenger, 2 Container, and >17 Flats, a total of 56 cars as outlined below: > > CIR201 > ------ > Hershey, PA to Lexington, KY > Via: CR-Cincinnati-CSX > >Event Location Train Time Date >RL Hershey-CR YdCrew 1930 ET Mon 31-May >LV Hershey YdCrew 2030 ET Mon 31-May >AR Harrisburg YdCrew 2130 ET Mon 31-May - Add coaches, > etc. >LV Harrisburg-NS CIR201 0600 ET Tue 01-Jun - Hold for 0600 > DEP >PS CP-Cannon CIR201 0630 ET Tue 01-Jun >AR Altoona CIR201 1030 ET Tue 01-Jun - Water Stock >LV Altoona CIR201 1230 ET Tue 01-Jun >AR Conway CIR201 1730 ET Tue 01-Jun >LV Conway CIR201 1745 ET Tue 01-Jun >AR Crestline-NS CIR201 0001 ET Wed 02-Jun >LV Crestline-CSX CIR201 0015 ET Wed 02-Jun >AR Buckeye CIR201 0345 ET Wed 02-Jun >LV Buckeye CIR201 0400 ET Wed 02-Jun >AR Cincinnati-CSX CIR201 1000 ET Wed 02-Jun > >NOTE: NS & CSX HAVE APPROVED THE ABOVE ROUTE. > >Circus train may be operated at freight train speed, not to exceed 50 >MPH, subject to final loading inspection by the Mechanical Department. >Clearance Bureau instructions governing the movement of Ringling's Red >Unit train are covered by blanket file: CIRCUS-R. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:09:42 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB operations From: Frederick J Jaeger On Wed, 26 May 1999 08:31:23 -0400 "Bill Volkmer" writes: . Our Baldwin sharks always ran like Swiss watches. I have a question about this operation. As I understand it the PRR part of the NY&LB originated at Exchange Place, Jersey City. How were Locomotives turned at Exchange Place? Maps I have do not show a turntable there. Frederick Jaeger fjjaeger@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Schuylkill Branch Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:46:15 -0400 (EDT) > Are there any publications that deal with the Schuyklkill branch around the > 1950s? The only thing I've been able to find is a short chapter in 'On The > Main Line', but that deals with the 1800s. Some stuff is available from a "recent" _Keystone_ (newsletter of the national PRRTHS) or _High Line_ (Philly Chapter). -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:58:30 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Madison Incline My original "...5.something percent..." was based on vague but recent recollection of a statement in Burgess and Kennedy. Two nights ago I looked for it and on page 213 found something like (wish I had remembered to bring the notes with me) "... incline 7040 feet long ... rise of 431 feet ... 5.89 per cent ..." Well, ahem, ahem, and hrmph. When I divide 7040 into 431 I get 06.12 percent plus a little. Thought maybe B&K might have meant 7040 feet along the slope, but that works out to 6.13+ percent. In January of 1960 I was riding a Greyhound from Columbus to Ft. Knox. Said bus normally crossed the Ohio at Cincinnati but for some reason I don't recall this one stayed north of the Ohio and passed through Madison, without actually announcing that it was going to pass the bottom end of the steepest standard guage grade on the continent. As it happened, I glanced out the window just as the bus was passing over the incline. "Holy cow" said I. "We must be in Madision, Indiana." Having seen it, I would believe any gradient up to about 8%. But I am alarmed. If you can't trust Burgess and Kennedy, who can you trust? === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Circus Train on Line Date: Thu, 27 May 99 06:21:51 -0400 From: Jerry On 5/26/99 2:24 PM, Alan Buchan (abbuchan@familyconnect.net) wrote: >Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:48 AM >Subject: CIR - Hershey to Lexington > >>Philadelphia, PA May 26, 1999 >>II Commerce Square > >>A Contract has been issued for the handling in Special Freight Train >>Service, Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey Combined Shows Red Unit >>Circus Train, Consisting of 4 Stock, 33 Passenger, 2 Container, and >>17 Flats, a total of 56 cars as outlined below: >> >> CIR201 Will this train be running special "circus cars", or standard Amtrak/Conrail stock? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:31:41 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB operations As far as the alcoholic effects of NY&LB operations, we should remember that in the electric-to-steam/diesel engine change at South Amboy, there was a good five to ten minute layover; the bar adjacent to the station did a land office business every time an evening commuter train came in to change power. The harried commuters returned to the train with brown bags, and proceeded to imbibe enroute to Matawan . . . John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:08:17 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Circus Train on Line Greetings to Jerry and the group, I usually avoid going up to the Curve when the RBBX is due to come through. Gets rather crowded up there for known special moves. Don't really need to go to the Curver or anywhere to see it go by though, can watch it go by from the deck of our home. (My wife picked the lot out!) Since that's a work day, I'll try to sneak out when they stop for water. Have seen RBBX many times doing that in Altoona. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 03:49 PM 5/26/99 -0400, Jerry wrote: >On 5/26/99 2:24 PM, Alan Buchan (abbuchan@familyconnect.net) wrote: > >>>A Contract has been issued for the handling in Special Freight Train >>>Service, Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey Combined Shows Red Unit >>>Circus Train, Consisting of 4 Stock, 33 Passenger, 2 Container, and >>>17 Flats, a total of 56 cars as outlined below: >>> >>> CIR201 >>> ------ >>> Hershey, PA to Lexington, KY >>> Via: CR-Cincinnati-CSX >>> >>>Event Location Train Time Date >>>RL Hershey-CR YdCrew 1930 ET Mon 31-May >>>LV Hershey YdCrew 2030 ET Mon 31-May >>>AR Harrisburg YdCrew 2130 ET Mon 31-May - Add coaches, > >I may be able to be there. Too bad it's at night...would be great to >photograph coming into Harrisburg off the Reading interchange! > >>> etc. >>>LV Harrisburg-NS CIR201 0600 ET Tue 01-Jun - Hold for 0600 >>> DEP > >Eh, gotta go to work. Too bad. Hmmm. Maybe I could be late and stake it >out at Rockville Bridge? > >>>PS CP-Cannon CIR201 0630 ET Tue 01-Jun >>>AR Altoona CIR201 1030 ET Tue 01-Jun - Water Stock >>>LV Altoona CIR201 1230 ET Tue 01-Jun > >Okay, Drew, load the camera with film and head up to the Curve...we all >know it's in your backyard! > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: pennsy@alphalink.com.au (Mick Molloy) Subject: [PRR] PRR {TAN} corbomite et al........ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:51:54 GMT On Tue, 25 May 1999 19:32:28 -0400, "boxcar46" pontificated: >Where does the PRR fit into this? Your rules Jerry........ >TV, space !!!!!!! where's the baby stories ? >Bill > >(boxcar46@nfdc.net) >End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. Well.......... Iit could be said that the Federation Icon resembles a much streamlined (for warp speed) upside-down keystone! Jerry, could you bounce me a copy of the seti e-mail, it hasn't made it to this side of the world as of 1000 GMT 26-05-99 Happy Railroading, Mike. (with a downunder perspective!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Renumbering Bachmann Spectrum Cars Date: Thu, 27 May 99 11:17:02 -0400 From: Jerry I'm going to have a need to renumber numerous Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars for my fleet. I'd like to know if others have done so and what mix of paint you recommend. I am not repainting the whole car. I just want to overpaint the numbers and then decal new numbers. I am referring to the post-war versions, if that makes a difference. A lot of these older heavyweights were still in use on the north-south routes that passed through Harrisburg in 1954. Andy Miller has previously ID'd these cars as "PRR authentic"! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Circus Train on Line Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:35:07 -0400 Having met many a circus train in my day, let me tell you they are NEVER operating anywhere close to schedule, unless things have drastically changed since the mid 1960s. I have seen them as many as 3 DAYS late from the advertised schedule! But then again, they had wooden business cars at the end of the train in those days also too. Bill ---------- > From: Drew McGhee > To: PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Circus Train on Line > Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 9:08 AM > > Greetings to Jerry and the group, > > I usually avoid going up to the Curve when the RBBX is due to come through. > Gets rather crowded up there for known special moves. Don't really need to > go to the Curver or anywhere to see it go by though, can watch it go by > from the deck of our home. (My wife picked the lot out!) Since that's a > work day, I'll try to sneak out when they stop for water. Have seen RBBX > many times doing that in Altoona. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > drm6@psu.edu > http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > > At 03:49 PM 5/26/99 -0400, Jerry wrote: > >On 5/26/99 2:24 PM, Alan Buchan (abbuchan@familyconnect.net) wrote: > > > >>>A Contract has been issued for the handling in Special Freight Train > >>>Service, Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey Combined Shows Red Unit > >>>Circus Train, Consisting of 4 Stock, 33 Passenger, 2 Container, and > >>>17 Flats, a total of 56 cars as outlined below: > >>> > >>> CIR201 > >>> ------ > >>> Hershey, PA to Lexington, KY > >>> Via: CR-Cincinnati-CSX > >>> > >>>Event Location Train Time Date > >>>RL Hershey-CR YdCrew 1930 ET Mon 31-May > >>>LV Hershey YdCrew 2030 ET Mon 31-May > >>>AR Harrisburg YdCrew 2130 ET Mon 31-May - Add coaches, > > > >I may be able to be there. Too bad it's at night...would be great to > >photograph coming into Harrisburg off the Reading interchange! > > > >>> etc. > >>>LV Harrisburg-NS CIR201 0600 ET Tue 01-Jun - Hold for 0600 > >>> DEP > > > >Eh, gotta go to work. Too bad. Hmmm. Maybe I could be late and stake it > >out at Rockville Bridge? > > > >>>PS CP-Cannon CIR201 0630 ET Tue 01-Jun > >>>AR Altoona CIR201 1030 ET Tue 01-Jun - Water Stock > >>>LV Altoona CIR201 1230 ET Tue 01-Jun > > > >Okay, Drew, load the camera with film and head up to the Curve...we all > >know it's in your backyard! > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:32:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Madison Incline The historical marker, if I recall correctly, at the foot of the grade in Madison gives the grade length as 7010' and the elevation rise as 413'. I think I read an article that told that some areas on the grade were over 6%. I think 5.89% is an accepted average overall. I wish I could find some good film footage of action on this line. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:43:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Renumbering Bachmann Spectrum Cars " Back When" I was in HO scale we were often able to use Walthers Solvaset - with the red rubber pencil end eraser - to remove unwanted lettering, without disturbing the paint underneath- worth a try before you start to strip or sand etc and try to match (the proceedure was even mentioned in the Walthers Catalog, at one time) Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:27:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Email and the Jack Fravert collection We volunteers who are digging out "the Jack Fravert collection" are coming back to life after a series of setbacks (computer crashes, tax season, and the death of Jack's mother-in-law). We're now prepping for a closing of bids on a first lot of hardware on Saturday June 19, and will be sending out that first-lot list soon. To keep me from spamming you in future, you might want to indicate your interests in the Jack Fravert collection by sending me back the appropriate lines: a. I'm interested in builder and number plates b. I'm interested in other hardware, including lanterns, locks, oil cans, and silver c. I'm interested in railroad books, including rare books and diesel operating manuals. d. I'm interested in paper railroadiana like timetables, maps, and rule books. e. I'm interested in those photos, slides, and movies by Jack Fravert that do not eventually go to archive. f. Thanks, I'm not interested in receiving lists. g. You should also send info to.. In light of recent experience, I'd like to solicit your opinions. Would you rather receive lists: a) as an Excel spreadsheet attachment b) as a Word attachment (probably Word 6 or earlier version, because not everyone has a version later than 6) c) as body in an email I need to standardize, as it is really messy to manage multiple formats, and slows things down. You've been amazingly patient with us, for which we thank you. Now we're going to see if we can deliver. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] NY&LB thanks Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:09:45 -0400 Thanks for the info on NY&LB operations. I'm thinking of modeling it in "O"(3-rail), once Dad and I get our garage in shape. I've been running the idea through my head, I think its feasible. I also want to model as far as Penn Station, with the NEC south of UNION being staging. When its done everyone is invited to operate! -Josh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:17:57 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Trucks Greetings, I've asked before if there was any reasonably definitive information, article, or whatever, that described the different freight car trucks the Pennsy used. Unfortunately the answer was, no. I'm trying to determine the proper designation and manufacturer of the trucks used on the N5 and N5B cabins for most of their service lives, as well as those used from 1964 onward as replacements on some crew cabins used in passenger service. An article in the Summer 1996 Keystone (V29 #2) says, "In 1964, 2D-F19E trucks were installed on some crew cabins, replacing the 2A-F5." Here are my questions: 1. Were the 2A-F5 trucks the ones that (to use generic terms) looked like a Bettendorf truck, but with only one large coil spring visible like those in the photos accompanying the V29 #2 article, and if so, who manufactured them? * I seem to recall an article somewhere else written by Ian Fischer saying these were made by Osgood-Bradley. 2. Where can I find a good photo of the 2D-F19E trucks? or.... * Are these the Bettendorf Swing Motion trucks shown on some of the cabins in the book "Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads"? For example, the photo of N5 #477266 a few pages from the front in that book (the pages aren't numbered). Any help clearing this up will be most appreciated. TIA, Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:43:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Trucks Chuck, I can't answer you point by post. I'm also looking into this for an N6 class story. Some leads, Bowser sells plastic and brass versions of this truck so they know this info. Check John Teichmoeller's hopper series in Model Railroading for its discussion of PRR truck. Below are some posts from the thread last March. Tom V. Hello everyone, In reference to the below, let it be known that Ian Fischer's PRR COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT Volume 2 (Morning Sun, 1996) says the short wheelbase, cast side frame caboose truck with the single coil spring (actually two coils nested one inside the other) was designated 2A-F5. The later version was called 2A-F4 and had elliptical leaf springs, and was introduced in the 1950's. That's what the book says. -- Robert Livingston > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > > ironhorse@sprintmail.com > > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 1:28 AM > > To: FarbLand@aol.com > > Cc: LINESWEST@aol.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks > > > > Greetings, > > > > I can't remember what the PRR classification for the N5 single spring > > truck was, but I read somewhere it was made by Osgood Bradley--I think > > the same O. G. that made trolleys. > > > > Chuck Friedlein > > Hello everyone, In reference to the below, let it be known that Ian Fischer's PRR COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT Volume 2 (Morning Sun, 1996) says the short wheelbase, cast side frame caboose truck with the single coil spring (actually two coils nested one inside the other) was designated 2A-F5. The later version was called 2A-F4 and had elliptical leaf springs, and was introduced in the 1950's. That's what the book says. -- Robert Livingston > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > > ironhorse@sprintmail.com > > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 1:28 AM > > To: FarbLand@aol.com > > Cc: LINESWEST@aol.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks > > > > Greetings, > > > > I can't remember what the PRR classification for the N5 single spring > > truck was, but I read somewhere it was made by Osgood Bradley--I think > > the same O. G. that made trolleys. > > > > Chuck Friedlein > > om: A few years ago Martin Lofton did an article on PRR trucks. I have it buried in my files someplace. I think it was in Mainline but not positive. This is the only publication of which I am aware the gives info on PRR freight trucks. A short explanation of the PRR class: first number is the number of axles. Letter is the size of the journal, F, T, P, C designate the type of service freight, tender, passenger, cabin. This is followed by the sequential number of the particular design. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] test Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:48:04 -0700 testing..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: New Alco Locomotives Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 19:31:47 -0400 Okay all you ALCo fans....read on New Alcos to be manufactured by....FM! Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 10:01 AM Subject: New Alco Locomotives >Those that thought there should have been more development of the >ALCO/MLW locomotives take heart. Hume Kading of Railway >Preservation News Reports: > >What caught my attention was that FM has acquired the rights to the ALCo >251 diesel engine, and now offers new 251s as well as OEM parts and >service. But, what really got me going was a link on the ALCo engine page to the ALCo Locomotive Company page! Following that link takes you to a page that is under construction, but that very much implies there will be new ALCo diesel locomotives being built. > I sent an e-mail to the site specifically asking that question and >this is the response I got: > > FM obtained the manufacturing license to manufacture the ALCO >engine from General Electric Transportation System, GETS in 1994 and >moved the Montreal (MLW) facility assets to our factory in Beloit, >Wisconsin. FM has recently purchased the entire locomotive product line. >NREC, National Railway Equipment Corporation of southern Illinois >will manufacture the chassis and main equipment. Globe >Turbocharger of Nevada will manufacture the ALCO turbochargers. FM will >manufacture new or remanufacture veteran ALCO diesel engines to new >FM/ALCO engine specifications. The FM website has a link to our >FM/ALCO website where you will find more information about that product line. > > Again, the ALCo Locomotive Company page is still under >construction. But, there it is, there will soon be new ALCos. >The web link is: http://www.alcoengine.com > >Gary > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Diesel Antenna Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 16:41:41 -0700 Gentlemen: I am search of information/drawings on the radio antenna posts used on PRR F units. I would like to build some and want some information on the proper installations points. Any suggestions? Thanks, Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:02:24 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] Teichmoeller Hopper Book, Freight Trucks. Hi All, In the cabin truck thread Tom V. mentioned the Teichmoeller hopper series in Model Railroading. To those interested I'm looking at an ad from one of the current mags, MRing, I think, announcing the release of John's book: "Pennsylvania Railroad-Steel Open Hopper Cars-A Guide for Enthusiasts". Release date noted as Sept. 1. John's series of MRing magazine hopper articles ran through most/all? of 93 and up to April or May of 94. Searching the index at Accurail.com I found that the Martin Lofton article on PRR freight trucks is in the 6/93 Model Railroading. Hope this helps, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Teichmoeller Hopper Book, Freight Trucks. Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:30:36 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 29 May, Ron Dugas wrote: > In the cabin truck thread Tom V. mentioned the Teichmoeller hopper > series in Model Railroading. To those interested I'm looking at an ad > from one of the current mags, MRing, I think, announcing the release of > John's book: "Pennsylvania Railroad-Steel Open Hopper Cars-A Guide for > Enthusiasts". Release date noted as Sept. 1. Great news! BUT, does he describe how to bash together two N Scale Con-Cor junkers to make a reasonable H21? *sigh* Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:26:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car colors In a message dated 5/31/99 12:05:03 PM Central Daylight Time, ODyard@aol.com writes: << What is the correct paint to simulate freight car color of the period? I use Pollyscale and Modelflex. My guess is to use either Modelflex light Tuscan ore Pollyscale oxide red but I am not sure. >> I have not seen the Modelflex light Tuscan but IMHO the Pollyscale is not PRR freight car color for the period. I use 50-50 mix of Polly Scale Zinc Chromate Primer (414293)and Special Oxide Red (424354). As I have indicated before on this or other lists, it scares you to death during application and drying because it is very orange, but dries to what I consider pre-1954 freight car color which does have a decidedly orangish tint to it (definitely not tuscan). I consider the shade on Red Caboose X29s to be as close to right on as I have seen in a commercially available model and this is close to that. Takes soot and ash weathering very well. Again, just what my cones and rods (or whatever you call those color sensors in your and fish eyes) tell me:-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:00:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cabin car colors Greetings! I am repainting an offset cupola and a center cupola N6b converted from the Model Power cheapie. I model 1946. One will be painted with for the Renovo Division and one for the E&A Division. What is the correct paint to simulate freight car color of the period? I use Pollyscale and Modelflex. My guess is to use either Modelflex light Tuscan ore Pollyscale oxide red but I am not sure. Any suggestions or references I can look up? Thanks. Don Murphy Recreating operations on the Renovo and E&A Divisions circa 1946 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Steam Triva Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 20:04:06 -0700 What is the outside diameter of the K-4 and L-1 smokeboxes??? I have checked several sources and the dimension varies from about 81" to 84". What is correct? Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:11:50 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Trucks Tom V., Greg Stone, Rich Orr, and others, Thanks for the help so far. I have looked at John Teichmoeller's articles (just a quick mention of Bowser making an N5 in his 12/94 RMC H21 article, but that's all), and Marty Lofton's PRR Freight Car Trucks article in the 6/93 MRG didn't even touch on cabins. I've looked through all my Keystones (have all but Vol 2 #1-4 -- anybody got that volume for sale????) and only found one really good article on the cabins (I think sombody mentioned it--Dec '74, Vol 7 #4), but nothing on who manufactured the trucks. However, I may have missed something in there, so will go through them again after finishing up the rest of my library. I think it's agreed the designation for the one (visible) spring version is the 2A-F5. FWIW, Bowser's kits don't say anything about them at all. What about the 2D-F19E? Was that Pennsy's designation for the Bettendorf Swing Motion truck? Sure looks like it to me, but I'd like other opinions or published information as reference. Can anybody verify what I think I remember Ian Fischer writing somewhere these were made by Osgood-Bradley? (can't remember the article or find it yet among my library--gimme a break, there's over 500 books I have here not counting my magazines). I've got a copy of all the Pennsy Journals and all but two issues of PC Railroader/Rails Northeast still to go through, so I'm still looking; but any help from anybody on this will be most appreciated. Thanks, Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!