From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:59:16 EST Subject: [PRR] B70, 6000-6054 Anybody know if any of the above cars had arch roof applied or were they all monitor roof? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:17:01 EST Subject: [PRR] L5 (was PRR Electric Questions) Bruce F. Smith wrote: >I'll leave the L5 "siderodders" for someone else (however, since they did >not operate from catenary, they would not have been MUed with GG1s) The first L5 (road number 3930, as I recall), was rigged for AC catenary operation, built 1924, scrapped c. 1942. Remaining L5's (8 or 18, I can't remember) were DC, and used for Penn Station NYC service; built 1924-25, also scrapped c. 1942. The motors of the L5 were a universal AC/DC type. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:20:20 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] Re: L-5 Electrics Livingston wrote: > > Gripp, William [NCSUS] wrote: > > > > The following questions apply to the O1 (2-B-2), P5 (2-C-2), and L5 (1-D-1). > > When were these built and when were they retired? How many of each were there? > > How were they typically operated, single units, MU within same class, MU with other classes? > > If in MU, how large was a typical lashup? Ever MUed with GG1s? > > > > Thanx for all answers. > > Dear Bill, Bruce Smith has answered you P-5 and O-1 questions, so here goes with the L-5 questions. The L-5s were built in 1924-26 or so. One L-5 was equipped with pantographs for AC operation and was used along with the single FF-1 in pusher service from Overbrook to Paoli, but probably not in multiple. It lasted until 1944 (the FF-1 was scrapped in 1940). MU receptacles were on the buffer beam for most or all L-5s, but I have never seen photos of them in multiple. The other L-5's ran on third rail from Manhattan Transfer to Penn Station and out the other side to Sunnyside until AC wire went in, then their main line duties were taken over by O-1s, P-5s, then GG-1s. They did remain in third-rail territory for transfer and other service until scrapping in 1942. The L-5s were not as useful as the DD-1s they were supposed to supplant, and the DD-1's outlived them. L-5 tractive effort was high, obviating the need for MU'ing in routine service. They derailed on "puzzle switches" due to the long rigid wheel base and the cabs were noisy and cold (or hot) and the crews preferred DD-1's. LIRR refused to take them off Pennsy's hands, but took every DD-1 offered. -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:13:35 EST Subject: [PRR] OD yard at Erie, Pa Greetings to the group. Saturday we had an operating session on my Renovo Division and E&A Division HO PRR model railroad. I model 1946 and that means ALL STEAM. Attached is the OD yard operator's report. I think you will find it interesting. The Corry operator and the Renovo Dispatcher are still preparing their reports. The trains noted actually ran in 1946. We use a fast clock and the actual 1946 schedule. Don Murphy Subj: OD Yardmaster report, 2/27/46 Date: 2/28/99 9:08:58 PM EST From: jer@smellycat.com (Jerry Jordak) To: ODyard@aol.com (Don Murphy) Here's how it went on Saturday at OD Yard. The clock started at 1:00 AM. 01:05 1st EL-1 (eng #2846) ready to depart for Linesville 01:30 1st EL-1 departs 03:16 1st EL-1 arrives at OD During the early morning hours, OD Yard had a large number of cars bound for Warren and Renovo. With permission from the dispatcher and the superintendent, we assembled an advance W-2. 04:28 Advance W-2 ready to depart OD 05:00 Advance W-2 departs OD 05:15 W-5 arrives at MO block station 06:00 1st EK-1 (eng. #4332) ready to depart for Corry 06:00 970 departs Erie Union Station on time 06:40 W-5 arrives at OD 20 minutes early (OK'd by yardmaster) 06:55 1st EK-1 departs OD for Corry 07:33 OD yard crew completes classification of train W-5's cars 08:23 581 arrives at Erie Union Station 08:46 981 arrives at Erie Union Station 09:10 1st EK-1 arrives back at OD 09:15 981 departs Erie Union Station 09:45 2nd EL-1 departs OD for the "black hole of Linesville" 10:10 Coal extra from Renovo arrives at OD 12:25 Empty coal hopper extra departs OD for Renovo 13:25 2nd EK-1 (eng #1102) ready to depart for Waterford, Corry, and BV 15:20 2nd EL-1 arrives back at OD 15:45 2nd EK-1 departs OD 16:20 EP-2 ready to depart for New Castle (1:20 late) 16:55 EP-2 departs for New Castle 1:55 late 17:07 BEC-1 ready to depart OD 17:20 BEC-1 departs OD for Crestline on time BEC-2 derailed somewhere in Ohio, and was annuled between Crestline and Erie. A section from Erie to Buffalo could have been sent out, but there were only two cars for Buffalo, and a lack of motive power prevented calling a section of BEC-2. The last road engine left at the OD roundhouse was used for W-2. 18:10 W-2 (engine #4530) ready to depart for Renovo. 18:30 W-2 departs OD. At this point the session ended due to personnel having to leave. Again, my job was made much easier by my competent engine crew and hostler, without whom the yard would not have run anywhere as well as it did. At the end of session, there was still a cut of hoppers for New Castle to be sent on a mineral extra, and enough cars to send another EL-1. All the local Erie industries had been switched during the session. Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:25:40 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Special License Plates I have a question for the group here. I am purchasing a new van this week and am thinking about getting some special license plates (By the Way I live in Wisconsin) and was wondering if the group would have any ideas for me. In Wisconsin you can use up to 6 characters in the plate and one I have came up with is PRRSHK being my favorite Pennsylvania diesel in the Baldwin Frieght Sharknose. Any other ideas would be appreciative in listing the standard railroad of the world and one of the many diesel classes of the Pennsy. Thanks, Randy Williamson Pennsy Fan in the Great White North far from the Pennsy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:11:28 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass. Tuscan '39-'45 Thanks again, Rich. I think the time has come for me to buy some books. Is the Blardone and Tulip book sold by the PRR Historical Society? Are there other books available to help me sort out the color maze? Any help would be appreciated. SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > The approved color for Passenger cars never darkened. However, as a head end > car the B60 may have been painted with the darker freight car color of the > post 1952 era. > > Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 07:47:42 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X-23 I do not have a 1957 Equipment Register, but the 1954 Register I have shows 11 x-23's in interchange service at that time. I would doubt if any made it to 1957 but I could be wrong. I'm sure there were still some around in MofW service in 1957. Frank Brua CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > I friend of mine has a Overland X-23 the's trying to sell me. My question is > how many of these were still around in regular service in 1957? Thanks Todd > Horton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Easter Car Works B60 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 99 06:25:50 -0500 From: Jerry Anyone out there have the new Eastern Car Works B60? (It's the one they took over from Bethlehem Car Works, I beleive.) I am looking for the ECW part number for this kit. The ECW web site is not up to date and does not show this kit. I need to order some. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:17:02 -0600 From: George Pierson Subject: [PRR] e-bau problems Hi, guys, At the risk of wasting band width, have any of you e-bayers had problems connecting to their site? As an almost confirmed e-bay addict, I've been denied my fix three days running with a message that a connection to the e-bay site cannot be established. Is it me, my computer/server or what?? -- George Pierson Dept. of Philosophy (george.pierson@trnty.edu) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Gary and his color charts.... Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:45:41 -0500 ****Hahaha, ok Gary, ( u troublemaker u...!!??!!). I naturally defer instantly to the real equipment paint experts. With PRRSignals, we only need "Railway Non-Reflecting Black" and Silver, depending on era. Soon, we will do my email namesake field, and have a discussion about which color of yellow LED's best simulate the PRR position light signal lamp appearance !!!...........................hahahha, bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] license plate for Randy Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:27:43 -0500 ***Hi, Randy- A bit more specific, but....PRR BF......as in the PRR loco class, baldwin frt....bill*-* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:00:45 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] e-bau problems George, It is not you. I was denied access with the same message you got Saturday afternoon, Sunday afternoon/night and this morning until about 10am. My local ISP says it is an EBay problem. I don't know whether problem was nation-wide as someone bidding on one of my items last night indicated he had no problem getting into my item to place a bid and I could,'t even get in to see what was going on bid-wise. Situation has got to be nasty for sellers of high dollar items if a portion of the country can't get in to bid during those frantic last minutes. Frank Brua George Pierson wrote: > Hi, guys, > > At the risk of wasting band width, have any of you e-bayers had problems > connecting to their site? As an almost confirmed e-bay addict, I've > been denied my fix three days running with a message that a connection > to the e-bay site cannot be established. Is it me, my computer/server > or what?? > > -- > George Pierson > Dept. of Philosophy > (george.pierson@trnty.edu) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] PRR Psgr colors ...book Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:50:41 -0500 ***I believe that Chuck Blardone's co-author was Peter T I L P... since some list members are touchy about 'name mangling'...bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] U R correct....Ebay mess... Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:53:23 -0500 ***Hi, George- Several of us were affected by their problems. Yes, they admitted to some problems, I heard about a 36 hour shut-down or slow down, I missed a lot of neat stuff..!!!! BUT...I saved a few bux....hahahah, they may offer extensions to balance it out, as they have done in the past......bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:30:50 -0500 I've been working on a truck reference for my web page. It's not done yet though. One thing I've been waiting for is a copy of the PRR truck diagram book. It has diagrams of all the truck classes. I have a lead on a copy but haven't gotten it yet... Stay tuned... Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > ironhorse@sprintmail.com > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 1:28 AM > To: FarbLand@aol.com > Cc: LINESWEST@aol.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks > > > Greetings, > > I can't remember what the PRR classification for the N5 single spring > truck was, but I read somewhere it was made by Osgood Bradley--I think > the same O. G. that made trolleys. > > Chuck Friedlein > > FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 2/27/99 12:29:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > > > > << Is there a resource there describing and listing Pennsy > trucks, or has > > anybody put together a list of accurate Pennsy trucks. If > three isn't, I > > guess > > I'll have to start researching one. > > The answer that I need right know is what was the > classification of the > > single spring cast truck that Bowser makes for its N5 and N5C kits? >> > > > > I know various keystones I have have covered trucks and I seem > to remember an > > article or two on trucks a few years back when the Pennsy > Hopper series rain > > in MODEL RAILROADING. I know the articles in Model Railroading > were based on > > HO truck availability. I'll look through my Keystones to try to > find the info > > but it could take me awhile. Somebody on the list pprobably > knows this off the > > top of their head. > > Brian C > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Easter Car Works B60 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:13:11 -0500 Jerry, ECW kit No. 1010 PRR B-60 undecorated. Does not include decals, but does include plastic truck parts. $34.95 retail price. I believe Bethlehem Car Works still has the Middle Division decal sets available that were originally supplied with these kits. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:46 AM Subject: [PRR] Easter Car Works B60 >Anyone out there have the new Eastern Car Works B60? (It's the one they >took over from Bethlehem Car Works, I beleive.) > >I am looking for the ECW part number for this kit. The ECW web site is >not up to date and does not show this kit. I need to order some. > >Thanks. > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com >"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com >----------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:44:30 -0600 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] Chicago Lift Bridge In today's Chicago Sun Times, there is a good photo of the PRR lift bridge over the Chicago River near 20th street (Page 16). It says the bridge is 84 years old. (This is the bridge on the Fort Wayne line into Union Station.) I was pleasantly surprised to see this photo in the paper, and wanted to pass it on so anyone elso who can get their hands on the paper won't miss it. Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:26:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass. Tuscan '39-'45 The Blardone and Tulip book was published by the PRRT&HS. I do not know if it is still available. The special publication on painting steam locomotives published by the PRRT&HS is definitely out of print. Articles have appeared in past issues of the Keystone. Drift cards are available from the PRRT&HS for some of the post 1952 colors. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:16:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint Colors? In a message dated 3/1/99 1:26:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Well Bill, here goes another question out to this list on my favorite subject, what color was this and what color was that. First question. What color did the Pennsy paint the old round number plates that the early K4's had applied to their boiler fronts? Were they painted with a DGLE or T-Red. >> Neither. The round number plates were painted black with gold lettering. There is some question if the raised area of the plates were painted or polished brass surfaces. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DZJN21A@prodigy.com (MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:47:44, -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Sanding Tower Details Hi all, Can anybody help me out with some details on the tops of the sanding towers such as those found in Enola. I've used the photos found in W. Volkmer's "Pennsy Electric Years" to construct an HO model of one, but can't complete the top details. Was the top cover flat, curved or what? Also, was the top cover one long piece or two separate pieces over each bin? Was this style of sanding tower unique to Enola or could it be found in other places on the Pennsy? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 18:51:52 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] eBay problems Greetings to George and the List: There was an eBay interruption over the weekend that shut things down while I was preparing to bid on a Washington Union Station item. The company's database server failed (their explanation) and it was out of service for maybe 2-4 hours. When it came back up, I noticed that they'd extended affected auctions by 24 hours. That made a difference, because I was then able to bid (successfully, it turned out). Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:59:36 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Special License Plates The first thing that pops into my "mind" is SPF-1 :-) Steve Bartlett Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > > I have a question for the group here. I am purchasing a new van this week > and am thinking about getting some special license plates (By the Way I > live in Wisconsin) and was wondering if the group would have any ideas for > me. ............ Any other ideas would be appreciative in > listing the standard railroad of the world and one of the many diesel > classes of the Pennsy. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 19:59:40 +0000 From: Clark Hallman Subject: [PRR] Blardone & Tilp Book Blardone, Charles, Jr. & Tilp, Peter. (1988). Pennsylvania Railroad passenger car painting and lettering. Upper Darby, PA: Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. Hope this helps, Clark Hallman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:51:46 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Dads last run Hi Guys.... I went to dads funeral today...I gonna post some info for any of you all who might be interested....And yes...there were many Railroaders there...even some Virginia Railway Express guys too. Some wanted to go but could'nt make it. I found out that dad knew a lot of folks (some of which might have owed him favors?) anyway....here is what i found out about his last run... He will be put on Train No.98 in Washington which is due out at 6:10 am. tomorrow. 98 is supposed to arrive in New York at 10:15. Then he will be switched to Train No. 291 which leaves Penn Sta. New York at 2:45 and arrives in Albany at 6:15 PM. Hes brother in law(Keith Olmstead) will be the rider for him. As i was saying....he might have been owed favors and such.... From what i have been told....No. 98 does'nt usually have a baggage car. Because he is being moved by rail...Amtrak has agreed to provide a car for these two trains for him free of charge. I'm in the process of finding out what the car number is. This might be something that is nice of Amtrak to do...and then again...there might be more to the story than i know at this time....My step mom and her sister told me that they were visited by some Amtrak higher ups the other day at home...I was'nt given the details of what was said...but its all rather strange..They got the impression that these guys were trying to butter them up for some reason. Now i know that dad knew some of the higher ups well...but for the past 5-10 years or so i also know he was'nt happy with the way things were done or run and some of them knew this. Now don't get me wrong...dad loved the railroad...PC days and all...its just the way Amtrak had/has gotten that he could'nt take anymore. So like i said...there might be more to this than i know right now. I felt you all might want to know. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Easter Car Works B60 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:39:03 -0500 I asked Mr BCW about B60 decals at the Springfield train show and they said they were out of them. The decals were made by the Middle Division, maybe they're still making them. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of jbreon > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 1:13 PM > To: Jerry; PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Easter Car Works B60 > > > Jerry, > ECW kit No. 1010 PRR B-60 undecorated. Does not include decals, but > does include plastic truck parts. $34.95 retail price. I believe Bethlehem > Car Works still has the Middle Division decal sets available that were > originally supplied with these kits. > Jerry Breon > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:46 AM > Subject: [PRR] Easter Car Works B60 > > > >Anyone out there have the new Eastern Car Works B60? (It's the one they > >took over from Bethlehem Car Works, I beleive.) > > > >I am looking for the ECW part number for this kit. The ECW web site is > >not up to date and does not show this kit. I need to order some. > > > >Thanks. > > > >----------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > >"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------- > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 19:49:11 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Gloor Craft N5b caboose in N-scale Hi all, I tried to get a photo of the N5b Caboose but the file is trashed or some such thing on the KC site. So can anyone tell how it compares to the N6? I have the Bowser model in HO as a reference for that one. I also tried to locate the caboose on Walthers' web site but was unsucessful... Any inputs would be helpful. Cheers, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:39:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Easter Car Works B60 Rob and list, Good luck trying to get in touch with the Middle Division Decal Co. They have never answered any requests from myself or oher people that I know who needs their decals. The only place to get them seems to be at the PRRT&HS convetions at their dealer table. I have built three of BCW B-60s and those decals they supplied are the best in the business. To bad they are not accessible. Anyone else have that problem also? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:08:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Greenville OH In a message dated 1/19/99 7:22:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, eaneubauer@enter.net writes: > >Are there any railcar builders in Greenville, OH? Or am I thinking of > >Greenville, PA or somewhere else? > > > I would guess you are thinking of Greenville PA. This used to be Greenville > Steel Car and was taken over by Trinity Industries in the mid-1980s. The > plant is stll active and usually is turning out hoppers, covered hoppers or > box cars. Eric > Tim (and Eric), It would surprise me if railcars or interurbans were ever built in Greenville OH. This small city northwest of Dayton was served by 3 railroads: - PRR/Panhandle (MP 94.5 from Columbus OH) - NYC/Cincinnati Northern - B&O/Dayton & Union but wasn't a terminal or even significant yard on any of them. I believe nearest (historic) carbuilding to Greenville OH would be at Dayton (Barney & Smith) or Columbus OH (PRR St Clair Avenue Shops + Ralston Steel Car Co.). Nearest loco building - Lima Locomotive Works, Inc., Lima, OH. BTW, for those of you that don't speak Buckeye, Lima is pronounced "Lye-ma", with a long "i". The Spanish pronunciation ("Lee-ma") refers to the South American city in Peru. Cheer up, Ohio is full of places with unique local pronunciations. Rick Tipton formerly of near Xenia ("Zee-nya") OH on the PRR main, Pittsburgh to St Louis. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:08:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X-23 In a message dated 3/1/99 9:06:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: > I do not have a 1957 Equipment Register, but the 1954 Register I have shows > 11 x-23's in interchange service at that time. I would doubt if any made it > to > 1957 but I could be wrong. I'm sure there were still some around in MofW > service in 1957. > I believe I photographed some X23's still in MoW service circa 1970 at Columbus OH. Is this possible? If so, these particular cars had been painted MoW yellow. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 20:52:50 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers From: "Doug and Marianne" I occasionally see the Gloorcraft N scale N6b kits in stores. I don't know if they are still made but call around, you should be able to find it. Good Luck. ---------- >From: Roger Elliott >To: LINESWEST@aol.com >Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers >Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999, 4:43 PM > >Hello Tom and all, > >I'm into N-scale myself but I didn't know there was a PRR N6 caboose out >there. I've been waiting for Dick Billing's kit from Fine-N-scale. Do >you have the kit? Can you still get it? I don't see it in the Walthers >catalogue.... > >Thanks, >Roger "Need a fleet of PRR cabooses.." Elliott > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OnTrackHby@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:01:42 EST Subject: [PRR] [FA] on ebay - Gem Pennsylvania RR E-6s 4-4-2 I have the following on ebay for auction... Olympia Models #GN-118, a Pennsylvania RR E-6s 4-4-2 locomotive. Loco is in original brass (unpainted) condition. Wheels show no signs of wear, appears to have been test run only. Locomotive is in original box as imported by Gem Models, along with original Certificate from Olympia. A beautiful model! No reserve. Shipping and Handling is $6.00, paid by buyer. Personal checks will require 7 business day clearing period. All other forms of payment shipped within 48 hours. NJ residents must add 6% sales tax. To view this item and place a bid, refer to item #71799260. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=71799260 Thanks... Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:38:25 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] eBay problems >Hi, guys, > >At the risk of wasting band width, have any of you e-bayers had problems >connecting to their site? As an almost confirmed e-bay addict, I've >been denied my fix three days running with a message that a connection >to the e-bay site cannot be established. Is it me, my computer/server >or what?? > >-- >George Pierson ===== As a matter of fact, George, I have had no end of problems lately. (Thought it was my modem or perhaps a software screwup.) Getting pages to load can take forever, as each step seems to be a unique problem, plus I frequently get failed connection messages. Jerry, you're the expert on confusers here. Can you give us any insight? Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:54:08 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, Speaking of Cabin cars, is there not someone working on a N scale kit for a N5 or N5c caboose? And does anyone know how far along this project is and projected release date? Thanks for the help. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] NS/CSX Implementation Update, 2/26/1999 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:18:49 -0500 Increasing traffic on former PRR lines, etc. -----Original Message----- From: NSINFO@nscorp.com To: DPVT86A@prodigy.com Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 4:08 PM Subject: Implementation Update, 2/26/1999 >Implementation Update >(Available on the World Wide Web at >http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/update/) > >February 26, 1999 >95 Days Until Closing Date June 1, 1999 > >Notable > Norfolk Southern is posting signs advising motorists of impending >train traffic increases expected at 1,600 public highway-rail grade >crossings as a result of the Conrail transaction. > The signs are being placed along rail line segments where traffic >is projected to grow by eight or more trains daily or by a 100 percent >increase in gross ton miles annually. The NS lines are located on the >Lake, Illinois, Dearborn, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh and Virginia divisions >and include portions of nine states - Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, >Michigan, Ohio, New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia. The >signs display an advisory crossing safety message and will remain >posted for six months after the June 1 closing in conformance with STB >conditions connected to its approval of the transaction. > In addition to posting the signs, NS and CSX will make the >Operation Lifesaver highway-rail grade crossing safety program >available to all communities, schools and other organizations located >on the line segments where traffic will increase. Since 1997, NS and >Conrail already have made more than 1,550 Operation Lifesaver >presentations to communities along the affected lines. > > Norfolk Southern reached an agreement last week with the Public >Utilities Commission of Ohio (PUCO), the Ohio Rail Development >Commission (ORDC) and other public officials to install flashing lights >and gates at 81 public highway-rail grade crossings covering four rail >corridors in 11 Ohio counties. > The agreement stems from the STB's Environmental Impact Statement >on the Conrail transaction, which concluded that redistribution and >increase in rail traffic would require upgraded warning signals at nine >highway-rail crossings in Ohio. Negotiated agreements with the Ohio >communities of Cleveland, Lakewood, Bay Village, Rocky River, Bellevue >and Freemont also identified crossings needing additional enhancements. >NS filed the agreement with the STB. > The total cost of the projects is estimated at $8.2 million, with >more than 70 percent coming from federal and state resources. PUCO and >ORDC officials selected the crossings based on established state >procedures and the STB findings. The projects are scheduled for >completion in August 2000. > "We are very pleased to participate in this important public- >private partnership, particularly one focused on a matter we take so >seriously - public safety," said Bruno Maestri, NS assistant vice >president Public Affairs. "Ohio officials deserve a lot of the credit >for putting together the funding vehicles that made the scope of this >project possible. We plan to continue to work with Ohio to pursue >additional safety projects, including crossing closures, as we move >closer to the Closing Date of the Conrail transaction." > > Construction of a proposed intermodal facility at Austell, Ga., >near Atlanta is key to handling expected growth in intermodal traffic >following the Conrail transaction, says Larry E. Wetsel, assistant vice >president - Staff, Intermodal, Norfolk. > Wetsel, who has been involved with the Austell project from its >beginning stages, noted that Atlanta has been the most active >intermodal facility on NS for some time. The Conrail transaction opens >up new opportunities for intermodal traffic growth. > The city of Austell, about 20 miles west of Atlanta, and the U.S. >Army Corps of Engineers have approved construction of a 450-acre >intermodal facility, and Norfolk Southern is proceeding with plans to >build it, but Cobb County is opposing the plan. > Planning for the facility began when the property was acquired in >1993 with the intent of augmenting Inman Yard in Atlanta, which has >reached capacity and now requires six satellite yards to meet demand. >The plan for Austell already included substantial interline traffic >with Conrail over the Hagerstown, Md., gateway, but the transaction is >expected to result in an additional 25,000 units annually for Austell >over the original plan, Wetsel said. > In an address earlier this month to the Atlanta Rotary Club, >David Goode, NS chairman, president and chief executive officer, noted >that Atlanta is "the transportation hub of the Southeast," and he cited >the benefits to the Atlanta area of the Austell facility as "less >traffic, improved air quality and better service for Atlanta businesses >and people." > > NS and Conrail information systems are undergoing several types >of testing related to the integration. > In system testing, groups of applications are tested together to >ensure data is passed properly from one system to another. "We had >never had an environment where we could test our three core mainframe >applications together until we began preparing for the Conrail >implementation," said Cindy Earhart, assistant vice president >Information Systems Planning and Development. >During the transportation system testing, Conrail waybill information >is processed through the NS transportation system much like it would be >on Day One. By doing this, any problems with passing and storing data >can be spotted and corrected before Day One. > In business area testing, automatic rating of waybills is tested >using Conrail rates and routes that have been converted to NS rates and >routes. "Our goal is to automatically rate as many waybills as >possible," Earhart said. > Integration testing is another way to assess readiness for >closing. It involves testing transactions from beginning to end, >through all systems, verifying results at each step. In some cases, >this involves both NS and Conrail systems. IT and the business area >have initiated integration testing in transportation, revenue, and >payroll. "We are testing the functionality of all mission-critical >systems," Earhart said. > >Quotable > "The division of Conrail is a good metaphor for this business. >Here you have a transaction that is based upon the belief that there is >growth for the freight transportation system. And the only way we'll >grow is to improve our service levels." - David R. Goode, NS chairman, >president and chief executive officer, in Progressive Railroading, >February 1999 > >Conrail Heritage > Last December, to celebrate Pennsylvania's rich railroad >heritage, the state unveiled a special license plate featuring Grif >Teller's famous 1928 painting "When the Broad Way Meets the Dawn." The >painting depicts the Pennsylvania Railroad's Broadway Limited passenger >train on its Chicago-New York run as the first light of day breaks >along the Juniata River in central Pennsylvania. > In a ceremony at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in >Strasburg, state Transportation Secretary Brad Mallory said, "Railroads >are synonymous with Pennsylvania. They have a rich heritage leading the >growth and development of this Commonwealth. Railroads, however, are >not simply a thing of the past. They continue to play a vital role in >Pennsylvania's transportation infrastructure and economic health." > In closing, Mallory added, "As we today unveil the new 'Preserve >Our Heritage' license plate, let us not only reminisce about the glory >days of steam and coal, but let us also look toward the exciting era >for Pennsylvania railways on the horizon." > A portion of the proceeds from the sale will underwrite >educational and exhibit programs sponsored by the Pennsylvania >Historical and Museum Commission. The plates cost $35 and are available >for use only on cars licensed in Pennsylvania. > >Norfolk Southern Heritage > In September 1933, employees at NS predecessor Norfolk and >Western Railway won a unique contest for a third consecutive year-a >wheel rolling challenge. > Employees of the Roanoke Shops were hosts to their challengers, >employees of the Pennsylvania Railroad, a Conrail predecessor. Some >1,500 people attended the event at the Roanoke city auditorium, where >they watched breathlessly as contest participants used scientific and >physical skill to maneuver 800-pound railroad wheels through a variety >of obstacles. > N&W Magazine reported that participants "rolled it around like a >hoop, flopped it over flange for flange, spun it around like a top, >guided it through rows of candles, made it stand alone, kicked it, put >flags on it and rode on top of it." > Speeches by local officials and songs by bands and quartets >preceded the wheel festivities. Judging was provided by a gang foreman, >machinist and helper from N&W's Roanoke Shops, and a sheet metal >worker, machinist and tool room attendant from PRR's shops in Columbus, >Ohio. > > >------------------ >Norfolk Southern Corporation >http://www.nscorp.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NS/CSX Implementation Update, 2/26/1999 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:03:13 -0500 (EST) > >Notable > > Norfolk Southern is posting signs advising motorists of impending > >train traffic increases expected at 1,600 public highway-rail grade > >crossings as a result of the Conrail transaction. > > The signs are being placed along rail line segments where traffic > >is projected to grow by eight or more trains daily or by a 100 percent > >increase in gross ton miles annually. The NS lines are located on the I love it. Ton-miles seems a funny criterion to use. Most of the general public probably has no idea what a ton-mile is. Granted, it may be the only measure easily available. But seems to me that duration of crossing blockage would be a more useful number. This would be a dependent variable, of course, determined largely by train number, train length, and train speed. Ton miles and train length are related, of course, and possibly even very closely related (?linearly) if the type of goods carried is the same. Train speed is tougher to predict, however, being determined by number of tracks, length of passing sidings, etc etc etc etc. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:09:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Speaking Buckeye in Panhandle Country In a message dated 3/2/99 12:53:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST writes: > and don't forget Versailles -- Ver-sales; Russia--Rooshie or Chauncey-- > chancey > > Tom V. Tom, The list of local usage goes on and on - add Bellefountaine -- Bell-fown'-tan Beavercreek -- Bee'-vur-krik Scioto -- Sigh-oh'-tah Yellow Springs -- Yella Springs' Ohio -- O-high'-ah Cincinnati -- often pronounced Zin-zin-na'-tee by those of us of German extraction Washington Court House -- always War'-shing-ton Oxford (site of Miami University of Ohio) -- Ox'-furd Sabina -- Sah-bye-nah Dutoit Street -- Dew-toyt Street Cadiz -- Kah'-diss, not Kuh-dizz' (the town in Spain) or Kay'-dizz (the town in western Kentucky) Route 35 -- Rowt 35 (not Root 35) besides all the railroaders referring to PRR rolling stock as "Panhandle cars". Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:30:45 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] Pennsy caboose trucks Hello everyone, In reference to the below, let it be known that Ian Fischer's PRR COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT Volume 2 (Morning Sun, 1996) says the short wheelbase, cast side frame caboose truck with the single coil spring (actually two coils nested one inside the other) was designated 2A-F5. The later version was called 2A-F4 and had elliptical leaf springs, and was introduced in the 1950's. That's what the book says. -- Robert Livingston > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > > ironhorse@sprintmail.com > > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 1:28 AM > > To: FarbLand@aol.com > > Cc: LINESWEST@aol.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks > > > > Greetings, > > > > I can't remember what the PRR classification for the N5 single spring > > truck was, but I read somewhere it was made by Osgood Bradley--I think > > the same O. G. that made trolleys. > > > > Chuck Friedlein > > > > FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 2/27/99 12:29:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > > LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > > > > > > << Is there a resource there describing and listing Pennsy > > trucks, or has > > > anybody put together a list of accurate Pennsy trucks. If > > three isn't, I > > > guess > > > I'll have to start researching one. > > > The answer that I need right know is what was the > > classification of the > > > single spring cast truck that Bowser makes for its N5 and N5C kits? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] Limited Quantity Middle Division decals Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:30:30 -0500 We have a limited supply of Middle Division HO decals. Please refer to the Middle Division listing on our web site. We also have Champ HO PRR passenger car decals in stock. Refer to the Champ HO Pass Car listing. All items listed are in stock for immediate shipping. $6.50 per order for shipping. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:09:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West Cabin Cars - Mae West In a message dated 3/2/99 12:53:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST writes: > In a message dated 3/2/99 12:15:16 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, RickTipton@ > aol.com writes: > > << Columbus OH (PRR St. Clair Avenue Shops + Ralston Steel Car >> > > Rick, Do you know if the Panhandle's N6As and N6Bs were erected in the St. > Clair Ave. workshops. It seems like I read somewhere that no all-steel cabins > were built there. > Tom, The following is my thinking. 1. Obviously, all the N5's were built by PRR on Lines East, probably at Altoona Car Shop. 2. We both know that all the N6's were really extensive REBUILDS to put steel underframes under a pre-existing wood carbody, and that all these bodies were stretched at one or both ends in the process, creating end cupolas or center cupolas. As far as we know, every N6a or N6b originally built used the superstructure of a previous PRR standard wood cabin (e.g. N4, NC, NE). 3. Since Columbus is not on the "Panhandle Division" of the Panhandle, it's possible only Dennison OH turned out the original fleet of N6B's with their narrow, slanted side, rounded roof cupolas to squeak through the Panhandle's "subway" (10 old tunnels between Pittsburgh and Dennison). But we'll probably find out Columbus/St Clair Avenue was involved in the later conversion of nearly all N6A's to N6B's. Incidentally, the Green Frog PRR tape narration, among other sources, referring to the "Mae West" cupola or cabin car. Green Frog then shows an N6b caboose. Can we nail down from some reliable Lines West sources what a "Mae West" really was? Of course, Mae West was an early movie star with impressive upper works. You can see W.C.Fields leering at them in "My Little Chickadee". I've always assumed a Mae West cabin referred to the N6a, with its large cupola actually a little wider than the rest of the carbody and a full-width, much flatter cupola roof. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:48:29 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers From: "Doug and Marianne" Fine N has been planning to produce an N scale N5c kit and is apparently still in the works. Its been delayed by other projects such as the Burlington Zephyr kit and their recent move to Washington State. According to N Scale magazine, it will likely be out this year. >Speaking of Cabin cars, is there not someone working on a N scale kit for >a N5 or N5c caboose? And does anyone know how far along this project is >and projected release date? Thanks for the help. > >Jeremy Helms >Omaha, Nebraska >locoshop@juno.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:44:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint Colors? In a message dated 3/1/99 12:26:06 AM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << What color did the Pennsy paint the old round number plates that the early K4's had applied to their boiler fronts? Were they painted with a DGLE or T-Red. >> Gary & All I believe the round number plates had a Toludine Red (Spelling) background. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:05:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Lines West Cabin Cars - Mae West In a message dated 3/2/99 11:09:47 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, RickTipton writes: << 1. Obviously, all the N5's were built by PRR on Lines East, probably at Altoona Car Shop.>> No argument. 2. We both know that all the N6's were really extensive REBUILDS to put steel underframes under a pre-existing wood carbody, and that all these bodies were stretched at one or both ends in the process, creating end cupolas or center cupolas. As far as we know, every N6a or N6b originally built used the superstructure of a previous PRR standard wood cabin (e.g. N4, NC, NE). But I made an error in my last post. I should have read that only all-wood cabins were erected on St. Clair Ave. meaning that no cabins were built there after the end of the NE/NEa program that began in 1903 OR that salvaging the wood cabin car bodies and placing them onto new 24' 10" underframes wasn't considered new construction. BTW, only bodies of the NB, NC, NE and NEa were rebuilt. The ND, N4 and NDa all had steel underframes and thus weren't affected by Ohio's 1913 caboose safety .law. << 3. Since Columbus is not on the "Panhandle Division" of the Panhandle,>> Again, no argument. However, I'm using the historical usage of Panhandle for all references to the PCC&StL. IF I'm talking about the Panhandle Division, I say Panhandle Division. Uh, Rick, it's athwart the Newark & Columbus and Columbus divisions. The Panhandle ends in Newark My Columbus Div. ETTs place the division post between the N&C and Columbus Division 0.1 mile west of Columbus Unions Station beneath the High Street overpass >. It's possible only Dennison, OH turned out the original fleet of N6B's with their narrow, slanted side, rounded roof cupolas to squeak through the Panhandle's "subway" (10 old tunnels between Pittsburgh and Dennison). But we'll probably find out Columbus/St Clair Avenue was involved in the later conversion of nearly all N6A's to N6B's.>> Both are likely, Another possible location is the old Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central Shops at Logansport. I've never heard of any fabrication t Xenia or Bradford.. The Pennsylvania Company's entire N6A was built at the PFW&C shops in Fort Wayne along with post-consolidation construction after April 1920. New car shops were opened at Fort Wayne in 1916. << Incidentally, the Green Frog PRR tape narration, among other sources, referring to the "Mae West" cupola or cabin car. Green Frog then shows an N6b caboose. Can we nail down from some reliable Lines West sources what a "Mae West" really was? << Of course, Mae West was an early movie star with impressive upper works. You can see W.C.Fields leering at them in "My Little Chickadee." I've always assumed a Mae West cabin referred to the N6a, with its large cupola actually a little wider than the rest of the carbody and a full-width, much flatter cupola roof. Rick Tipton >> I think you're on the mark about Mae West. The slang term for the Kapok life vest used by the USN in World War II had the same root, I think I need to talk to Ian Fischer. In the PRR color guide Vol. II he describes one N6b as Constructed new with a centered Panhandle cupola, which I think is the best term for the design, and then says another N6B with centered cupola was rebuilt from an N6a. I'd like to know how he knows the difference. For me it's like sexing baby chicks. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:20:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy caboose truc <> Speaking of Ian Fischer, does anyone know how to contact him. I'd like to ask him some questions about the N6 class. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:52:01 EST Subject: [PRR] SOMEBODY IS making a SCALE Baldwin Centipede Mike's Train House has announced a SCALE Baldwin centipede - in 3 Rail "O" scale. The Double "A" units have 4 motors, smoke and sound and are 46" overall length. They need O-72 radius - No word as to cost yet If you'd like to buy something for your kids - the new catalog offers a "Railking" O-27 (smaller than 1/4" scale) PRR H-10 Set with PRR marked tank car, box car, gondola, hopper and N-6 Caboose, cirle of track and a small transformer Dick Ross Clewveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:41:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X-23 In a message dated 3/2/99 5:04:34 PM Central Standard Time, Ljgurke@aol.com writes: << On page 68, the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Car Equipment shows an RB23 ice car at Exchange place, Jersey City, in November 1960. Car is grey with "Assigned to Jersey City Ice Car". The RB23 (according to the caption) is a modified X23 boxcar. >> I could be wrong, but I think this has already been categorized by people on this list as an ex-ATSF reefer. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:23:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X-23 On page 68, the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Car Equipment shows an RB23 ice car at Exchange place, Jersey City, in November 1960. Car is grey with "Assigned to Jersey City Ice Car". The RB23 (according to the caption) is a modified X23 boxcar. Regards, Mike Hagan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:17:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Railroad Items for Sale I have the following items for sale on Ebay: PRR Postcard of Irwin, Pa. Station 71910434 Cumberland Valley/ Norfolkk and Western Postcard of Hagerstwon, Md. 71913739 Western Maryland Railway Enameled Pin 71916197 Milwaukee Road Hiawatha (steam) Matchbook 71927177 PRR Raised Keystone Spoon 71928482 All auctions close on 3-6-99. Thanks for looking. Always interested in buying Pennsylvania Railroad items Andrew Sentipal ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:17:45 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] SOMEBODY IS making a SCALE Baldwin Centipede On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Mike's Train House has announced a SCALE Baldwin centipede - in 3 Rail "O" > scale. The Double "A" units have 4 motors, smoke and sound and are 46" overall > length. They need O-72 radius - No word as to cost yet Too bad it's the wrong scale;-) I suppose it needs the smoke to make it a prototypical Baldwin.... At some point I saw an article which referred to the problems they had using the Centipedes as pushers because apparently for an extended period on the sharp turns ascending from Altoona the ventilation hole in the carbody did not align with that in the trucks, meaning they kept burning out traction motors, at least if I recall the story. Does this sound familiar to anyone? anyone else seen it? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 17:00:10 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 28 Feb, Roger Elliott wrote: > I'm into N-scale myself but I didn't know there was a PRR N6 caboose out > there. I've been waiting for Dick Billing's kit from Fine-N-scale. Do > you have the kit? Can you still get it? I don't see it in the Walthers > catalogue.... At the risk of repeating others, Gloor Craft made a fresh run of the N6 car sometime last year, or maybe earlier; a toddler messes up your memory something awful. At least, they were readily available last year. I bought one and should've bought the other he had before the local shop that gets all my money got burned out. But he has reopened! In any case, the Gloor Craft model was distributed by Walthers, and their online catalog shows it as in stock. And as of my last information, the Fine N Scale N5c is "imminent". Yes, we've been waiting for several years, but his past performance (X29, X31, X32, etc) definitely makes it worth the wait! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:10:01 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers Hi Dennis, Thanks for info on the Gloor Craft N6b caboose. I was thinking it was an N5b like my Bowser but for that, I have to wait for Dick Billings..... By the way, anybody know how I can contact him? I happen to have the Fine-N-Scale Burlington Pioneer Zephyr and it is a really cool model. I love watching it go around my little 4x6 layout. I've also got a few of his X-31 cars and know the X-29's which I have yet to build...... Cheers, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] O scale Centipede Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:35:09 -0800 For all you O scalers, I E-mailed Mikes Train House and they inform me that they will offer the baldwin centipedes in 2 rail as well as 3 rail as long as they get enough orders. That usually means they need one hundred orders in 2 rail. So if you think you may want one set of AAs order now. If you don't order they won't reach the 100 mark and they won't be offered in 2 rail. A set cost $699.00 list. You might be able to get a few bucks off from some dealers. On the other hand the G5 will not be offered in 2 rail. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:35:01 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X-23 Bob, You're correct; it is an ex-ATSF car--actually an Rr-23. It seems to be the only one that Pennsy acquired, as no one else can find anything that could lead one to believe there were more of them. Chuck Friedlein Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 3/2/99 5:04:34 PM Central Standard Time, Ljgurke@aol.com > writes: > > << On page 68, the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Car Equipment > shows > an RB23 ice car at Exchange place, Jersey City, in November 1960. Car is > grey > with "Assigned to Jersey City Ice Car". The RB23 (according to the caption) > is a modified X23 boxcar. >> > > I could be wrong, but I think this has already been categorized by people on > this list as an ex-ATSF reefer. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:52:38 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 2 Mar, Roger Elliott wrote: > Thanks for info on the Gloor Craft N6b caboose. I was thinking it was > an N5b like my Bowser but for that, I have to wait for Dick > Billings..... By the way, anybody know how I can contact him? The phone number on the instruction sheets is probably bad now, since somebody mentioned a move to Oregon, which was news to me. I will look at the sheets from recent purchases when it won't wake the rest of the family. > I happen to have the Fine-N-Scale Burlington Pioneer Zephyr and it is a > really cool model. I love watching it go around my little 4x6 layout. Hear, hear! > I've also got a few of his X-31 cars and know the X-29's which I have > yet to build...... They're all really fine cars! It was the X-31s that got me into airbrushing. Airbrushing PRR models is really easy! I have painted up five X29s so far, one in each paint scheme that was on the rails on my modelling date, September 1954. Even brush-painting the ladders over the Merchandise Service stripe wasn't as hard as I expected. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:10:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X-23 In a message dated 3/2/99 6:04:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ljgurke@aol.com writes: > On page 68, the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Car Equipment shows > an RB23 ice car at Exchange place, Jersey City, in November 1960. Car is > grey > with "Assigned to Jersey City Ice Car". The RB23 (according to the caption) > is a modified X23 boxcar. > Mike: This is an error in the caption. The car is an ex-ATSF reefer. ATSF class RR23. It is not a modified X23 boxcar. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:38:26 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 2 Mar, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > On 2 Mar, Roger Elliott wrote: > > > Thanks for info on the Gloor Craft N6b caboose. I was thinking it was > > an N5b like my Bowser but for that, I have to wait for Dick > > Billings..... By the way, anybody know how I can contact him? > > The phone number on the instruction sheets is probably bad > now, since somebody mentioned a move to Oregon, which was > news to me. I will look at the sheets from recent > purchases when it won't wake the rest of the family. The instruction sheet in last month's purchase still shows the San Pedro address, but Randy Gordon-Gilmore (he did the design of the Zephyr model) tells me: > Dick moved to Washington State in December. His new info is > > Fine N-Scale Products > 4202 Blue Heron Circle > Anacortes, WA 98221-3672 > > (360)299-4527 ph > (360)588-0247 fax Good luck! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:05:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR LOCO PRR List, I am not much of a diesel modeler or much of a historian so I ask this question to those familar with this subject. The Pennsy owned 15 or so RSD 12's Class AS18am. Did any of those locos have the antenna attached to its roof. I am unable to find photo proof of this but I am guessing they did. I do no have any of the Diesel Years books to look through. Can someone please send me a JPEG pic if they can come up with one. I have a Overland Models PRR RSD 12 here from one of my customers. He wants me to install antenna even if they didn't recieve them. Any help out there? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] American Steel List is Born! Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 14:46:26 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/3/99 1:32 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: >For those who are intersted, here is the new American Steel Mailing >List. The list is intended to support the steel mill modeler, and allow >those interested to promote this interesting section of our hobby, and >provide a place for information to be exchanged. > >Remember: TELL A FRIEND!!!!!!! > > >To subsribe, send an email to: americansteel-request@knoxfirst.com > >Put SUBSCRIBE in the message body > >To unsubscrib, put UNSUBSCRIBE in the message body. Gee, wasn't another steel industry list announced just last week...via ONELIST.COM??? Seems a bit redundant to me. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: [PRR] American Steel List is Born! Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:32:49 PST For those who are intersted, here is the new American Steel Mailing List. The list is intended to support the steel mill modeler, and allow those interested to promote this interesting section of our hobby, and provide a place for information to be exchanged. Remember: TELL A FRIEND!!!!!!! To subsribe, send an email to: americansteel-request@knoxfirst.com Put SUBSCRIBE in the message body To unsubscrib, put UNSUBSCRIBE in the message body. To send out an email to all people on the list, send that email to: americansteel@knoxfirst.com Kevin Tully Model Railroading Superintendent Liberty Model Productions ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: CRTS Update #02-41 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:40:00 -0500 FYI PRR will ride again! Al ------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Joseph.Jack@conrail.com [mailto:Joseph.Jack@conrail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: Re: CRTS Update #02-41 AMoungst other things today.....I heard from one of the enginehouse boys (and KLINK) that they now have in stock the necessary "New ####'s) for the NS/ CR renumbering.... They are evidentally for whatever is assigned here...or..?? They came in individual tubes with the old CR #### stampped on the outside and I believe are for the sides and the numberboards both. Interesting tidbit is that (like all other NS / predecesor roads) will retain a specific designation for accounting..??? or shop maint. records...??? (initials) of the original road that they came from etc... In this case....for whatever reason, they will use the initials....PRR.....that's right sportsfans...PRR..!! Now if they'd just paint the units "TUSCAN"......????? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:14:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] SOMEBODY IS making a SCALE Baldwin Centipede Yes, I recall the same article about the Centipedes in pusher service Traction Motor blowers were frame mounted - and when the units were used as pushers on "The Curve" they cooled the ballast - while the Traction motors burned up ! Wish I could recall where WE read it Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Mar 99 13:38:09 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR LOCO Gary: The RSD-12's did not recieve any trainphone antennas. I looked through many publications over the years and I never saw a picture of one with them. Pennsy ordered the RSD-12's in 1957-58 for the primary purpose of helper service on Horseshoe Curve. The units lasted on the curve until the early to mid 1960s when they were replaced by SD-35s and SD-40's. Similarly, the Pennsy ordered RSD-7's for helper service over the curve at about the same time but for passenger trains. These units were equipped with trainphone antennas and steam generators. Hope this helps Ted Andrews Carmel Indiana ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] PRR LOCO Author: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) at Internet Date: 3/3/99 1:21 PM PRR List, I am not much of a diesel modeler or much of a historian so I ask this question to those familar with this subject. The Pennsy owned 15 or so RSD 12's Class AS18am. Did any of those locos have the antenna attached to its roof. I am unable to find photo proof of this but I am guessing they did. I do no have any of the Diesel Years books to look through. Can someone please send me a JPEG pic if they can come up with one. I have a Overland Models PRR RSD 12 here from one of my customers. He wants me to install antenna even if they didn't recieve them. Any help out there? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:02:34 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] (no subject) Does anybody in this group have a set of Champ HB-144A Linde Tank Line decals they would be willing to part wth? This set is for the original lettering on the box car red car. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRR class GS in MW service Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:31:11 -0500 Last month there was a discussion regarding class GS gondolas being in MW service at which time I stated that a group of us have been working on compiling a PRR list of MW equipment and that we had no photographic evidence of class GS gons being in MW service. Actually that statement was not totally correct as the initial draft list does show one class GS, PRR 494074, a John C. LaRue photo from the Paul Backenstose collection. And now another has appeared PRR 494092 (white lined), in the April 1999 edition of "RailModel Journal", on page 31. It is a Rich Berg photo (B&W in magazine) photographed in 1988 at Niles, OH (Lines West - PY&A territory). It appears to be in FCR w/ white lettering in the CK scheme, although CK is not visible. There is a gap of 111 cars in the draft list from 494038, a class NX riding car, and 494150, a class G22 wheel car, with the exception of course of the two GSs 494074 and 494092. So perhaps this was a block for class GS gons? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:07:54 EST Subject: [PRR] Lotsa L&N Coal on the Panhandle In a message dated 2/24/99 3:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Stuthayer@AOL.COM writes: > In a message dated 2/24/99 5:46:50 AM Mountain Standard Time, > RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > << Ben Davis was also convenient to route any northbound coal traffic coming > off > the Louisville line (think L&N Eastern Kentucky coal interchanged at > Louisville/Jeffersonville). L&N coal could come up to IU interlocking and > then west past Union Station, but probably swung west off on the Belt Line > at > Dale, bypassing Union Station while reaching the St. Louis line. >> > > Rick, > This is interesting. Did the L&N in fact interchange EK coal off to the PRR > through Louisville and Jeffersonville. I have never seen any indication of > this, or reference to it. In addition, I never saw L&N coal in the former > PRR > Jeffersonville yard. I always assumed that coal off the L&N to the PRR was > interchanged through Cincinnati. In fact, I know a lot of coal did go this > way. > > Stuart Thayer > Stu, A lot of this discussion was about the reason(s) the I&F branch got built by the PRR just before WWI. No question that much L&N coal went north through Cincy -- as a child in the 50's, I used to see the L&N transfer jobs waiting to get into NYC Sharonville, and of course PRR probably got even more at Undercliff. But remember that the bulk of L&N's coal output from Kentucky went NORTH until the 70's. I was commenting on how the trackage norhbound/westbound off both the PRR's Vincennes Branch and the PRR's Louisville Branch at Indianapolis was nicely dovetailed into the sweeping curve from westbound to northbound onto the I&F at Ben Davis interlocking. Davis lies along the north boundary of the Indy airport, and thus is just outside I-265 today. While working in you-know-who's basement, I asked Tish Knoeller of Kentucky Railway Museum and Charlie Castner (Pres, L&N Historical Society) about EK if not CV coal through Louisville. They responded right away that historically, Eastern Kentucky coal via Winchester and Anchorage, plus Cumberland Valley coal via the Lebanon Branch, moved in quantity to PRR at Louisville. To a Louisville railfan like you, this might suggest: - why the bridges and culverts were so stout on the L&N Lebanon Branch. It couldn't have all been boxcars of bourbon. - why the PRR needed double track on the elevation project between Kentucky Street and Clagg Tower on the river. - why the PRR had such a good-sized yard in Jeffersonville IN, even though traffic in the 60s and 70s was puny. - how come the PRR Louisville Branch had such deep rail for a granger branch line - and so forth So all of this might help justify the massively engineered I&F project. In any case, there's no doubt that it got Pennsy trains off a Lake Erie & Western track ill-suited for heavy traffic, and allowed PRR to promote coal traffic north to Frankfort-Logansport-Chicago etc without running via Terre Haute. Before completion of the I&F as a shortcut, the PRR's best routing north was Indy-Terre Haute-Frankfort-Logansport-Chicago. I'm not sure that turning the corner at Terre Haute didn't involve yarding the train and then reversing direction. Anyway, I've got a feeling that the local PRR coal branches just to Terre Haute's southeast were creating enough trouble in the vicinity on their own. With the war in Europe starting in 1914, the US economy was booming and pushing against its limits by 1916. You can probably name for yourself the improvements and extensions on the L&N between 1912 and 1920 that opened up new coal mines, expanded capacity, etc. Well, the Pennsy, as a delivering carrier, had the same reasons to add and refine capacity in this period. Rick Tipton LWF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:53:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] SOMEBODY IS making a SCALE Baldwin Centipede From: Patrick M Egan I believe the write-up on that was in X2200South back about '69 or thereabouts. Odd thing is - the Centipedes were designed because Seaboard wanted something for their curvy main line! I guess it wasn't that curvy. Pat Egan (no web access) On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:14:08 EST VVA249@aol.com writes: > Yes, I recall the same article about the Centipedes in pusher >service >Traction Motor blowers were frame mounted - and when the units were >used as >pushers on "The Curve" they cooled the ballast - while the Traction >motors >burned up ! > Wish I could recall where WE read it >Dick Ross > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:32:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR LOCO Also, all of the RSD12 loco were equipped with hump control. So it is unlikely that any of the 25 loco received trainphone. However they may have been equipped with the yard phone moon disc antennae. Check Withers PRR Diesel Pictorials Vol 1. I leant my copy to someone so I can't check it. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MR article (was Re: What Happens To A Layout When You Reach Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:17:56 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 1 Mar, KEMACPRR wrote: > [ ... ] The rr will not survive forever but the > distribution of the rr assets has already been taken care of. The HO club I'm a member of has a committee that buys and sells collections; they will handle the disposition of my stuff, so everybody wins, assuming the club still exists when I don't. > Again thanks for the concern and I hope you enjoy the article as much as I > enjoy the rr. I thought that the article was short on pictures; for such a huge chunk of scale real estate, the photos didn't cover enough of it. I know that MR doesn't like to publish photos of unfinished layout areas unless it's a construction article, but the I would like to see more shots like the Northumberland overview (featuring the unfinished turntable and the pushpins holding the track down!) with the staging yards and ramps on the far wall in full view. There was only one photo of a lower level at all (shot #2, Sunbury); in particular, I would like to see how the area between Newberry Yard and Loch Haven looks, with two levels above and one below. Lots of us are contemplating multideck layouts (vs hillsides ala photo #1), and the more examples we see, the better our decision-making will be and the more satisfied we'll be with our layouts. Bill Darnaby shouldn't be the only example we have, however fine an example he is. I look forward to an article on your new extension! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] American Steel List is Born! Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:06:48 PST Jerry, Yes, another list was started last week. Jeremy started that one to hold the place of the American Steel List until it was finished and brought online. There is only one list now, American Steel. So, no redundancy here. Kevin >From prr-talk@dsop.com Wed Mar 3 12:41:19 1999 Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com (AppleShare IP Mail Server 5.0.2) id 622775 via TCP with SMTP; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:49:36 +0000 Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com with POP3; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:44:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] American Steel List is Born! Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 14:46:26 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Jerry To: "Kevin Tully" , "PRR-Talk" cc: , , , , , , , , , , , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.4 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On 3/3/99 1:32 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: >For those who are intersted, here is the new American Steel Mailing >List. The list is intended to support the steel mill modeler, and allow >those interested to promote this interesting section of our hobby, and >provide a place for information to be exchanged. > >Remember: TELL A FRIEND!!!!!!! > > >To subsribe, send an email to: americansteel-request@knoxfirst.com > >Put SUBSCRIBE in the message body > >To unsubscrib, put UNSUBSCRIBE in the message body. Gee, wasn't another steel industry list announced just last week...via ONELIST.COM??? Seems a bit redundant to me. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Show This Sunday (3/7/99) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 99 09:43:25 -0500 From: Jerry Just wanted to remind folks that this Sunday (3/7/99) is the Annual Railroadiana Show in Harrisburg, Pa., presented by the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS. The show is being held at the Zembo Mosque and runs from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. Admission is $3. It's no Timonium, but, being located so close to the Rockville Bridge, Enola Yards, Harrisburg passenger station, restored HARRIS tower, it might be worth the trip for those out-of-towners who want to get in some railfanning as well. I ("Merchandise Service") will have a table, so stop by and say hello. If you haven't seen the Miracle Castings BP20 Sharks yet, I'll have them on hand -- including units for sale. Will also have the recently released Red Caboose X-29's in "Merchandise Service" scheme...as well as the "Railway Express Agency" scheme and others. Other products available include P2K GP7's, Bachmann K4's, Digital Image Works videos, Withers Publishing/Jack Hahn books on PRR diesels, Digitrax decoders, and more! Hope to see you there! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:43:44 -0500 From: Terry Brentzel Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Centipede traction motor overheating problems Derrick, Your statement about Centipedes in helper service experiencing traction motor overheating problems is correct. An article, written as part of a three part "Centipede Connection 1-3" series, entitled "Personality on the Pennsy" (Trains - May 1982, pp 48-50) and authored by William D. Volkmer described this phenomenon. Evidently a large number of traction motor failures due to overheating were experienced in Centipedes used on east slope helper service on the east slope from Altoona. As you stated, it was discovered that the combined effects of extreme track curvature and the slow pace of the train were causing the traction motor blower duct and traction motor to be mis-aligned. Therefore, the cooling air intended for the traction motor was discharged directly onto the ballast. Terry Brentzel /tlb > At some point I saw an article which referred to the problems they had > using the Centipedes as pushers because apparently for an extended period > on the sharp turns ascending from Altoona the ventilation hole in the > carbody did not align with that in the trucks, meaning they kept burning > out traction motors, at least if I recall the story. Does this sound > familiar to anyone? anyone else seen it? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:11:23 -0500 From: John Griffin Subject: [PRR] USGS Map Resources Hi All, I came across this information and thought is might be of use to those of you who model in the Pennsylvania region. There are USGS 7.5' x 7.5' maps available on-line for free. I down loaded the series that covers the Buffalo/Erie Main between Renovo and Emporium. The resolution is a little grainy when you zoom too far down, but hey, their FREE! Might be useful as is, or to help you decide which paper maps you really what to purchase (Wish I had known about this before I ordered 30+ maps, Harrisburg PA to Olean NY). Go to the USGS site to find the name of the maps you want; http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/Webglis/glisbin/finder_main.pl?dataset_name=MAPS_LARGE Then go to the Pennsylvania State University site to find the maps, in TIFF format. http://www.pasda.psu.edu/search.cgi?k=DRG I hope some of you will find this useful in your efforts. - John - John Griffin Senior IT Specialist Computer Support Services CAE Electronics Ltd pho 514.341.2000 x3332 fax 514.340.5583 net griffin@cae.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:17:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lotsa L&N Coal on the Panhandle In a message dated 3/3/99 23:46:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << So all of this might help justify the massively engineered I&F project. In any case, there's no doubt that it got Pennsy trains off a Lake Erie & Western track ill-suited for heavy traffic, and allowed PRR to promote coal traffic north to Frankfort-Logansport-Chicago etc without running via Terre Haute. >> I would think a large amount of this traffic went to Gary -- coking and open hearth furnances Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] USGS Map Resources Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:00:15 -0500 (EST) John Griffin scrivit: > > Hi All, > > I came across this information and thought is might be of use to those > of you who model in the Pennsylvania region. > > There are USGS 7.5' x 7.5' maps available on-line for free. I down > loaded the series that covers the Buffalo/Erie Main between Renovo and > Emporium. The resolution is a little grainy when you zoom too far down, > but hey, their FREE! Might be useful as is, or to help you decide which > paper maps you really what to purchase (Wish I had known about this > before I ordered 30+ maps, Harrisburg PA to Olean NY). THese maps have gotten awful expensive since the govt. decided (rightly, IMHO) that they should be breaking even on some of their services. If you can live without color, remember that, in the right library, 14 cents will get you the whole way from one end of a map to the other, if you make legal size copies. ANd if you find a color copier, even better. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:32:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lotsa L&N Coal on the Panhandle In a message dated 3/3/99 9:46:14 PM Mountain Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << A lot of this discussion was about the reason(s) the I&F branch got built by the PRR just before WWI. No question that much L&N coal went north through Cincy -- as a child in the 50's, I used to see the L&N transfer jobs waiting to get into NYC Sharonville, and of course PRR probably got even more at Undercliff. >> This remained true all the way through the PC days and into CR days. << While working in you-know-who's basement, I asked Tish Knoeller of Kentucky Railway Museum and Charlie Castner (Pres, L&N Historical Society) about EK if not CV coal through Louisville. They responded right away that historically, Eastern Kentucky coal via Winchester and Anchorage, plus Cumberland Valley coal via the Lebanon Branch, moved in quantity to PRR at Louisville. To a Louisville railfan like you, this might suggest: - why the bridges and culverts were so stout on the L&N Lebanon Branch. It couldn't have all been boxcars of bourbon. - why the PRR needed double track on the elevation project between Kentucky Street and Clagg Tower on the river. - why the PRR had such a good-sized yard in Jeffersonville IN, even though traffic in the 60s and 70s was puny. - how come the PRR Louisville Branch had such deep rail for a granger branch line - and so forth >> This is very interesting. It all makes sense. I remember seeing a lot of EK coal come into Louisville through Anchorage, KY. at HK tower, but I never knew where it was going. Being too young to drive I never got over to Jeffersonville very much. I wish I had seen that. In the mid-late 70's I know the L&N re-routed the "Steel Train" up the Lebanon branch into Louisville, and then up the Monon to Gary, IN. I wonder if the original PRR route was ever tried during this period for the "Steel Train". Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] PRR in South Jersey Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:17:08 -0500 (EST) Some time ago we were discussing where the PRR Wildwood Jct. was. I managed to find, in a Govt. Depository library here, the relevant map of south Jersey. The map shows the PRR RoW exiting Anglesea, crossing the channel, and paralleling North Wildwood Road almost exactly. This road is labelled as NJ 585, but IIRC this is now NJ 147. West of the village of Grassy Sound a benchmark (6 ft above sea level) is passed as the road and RR have turned more to the NW. Before exiting the marsh, the road turns a bit to the south, the PRR RoW somewhat less so, and they start getting farther apart. Just before the Garden State Parkway is a road to the north; taking this road north, the PRR RoW will be crossed at the entrance to the GSP northbound. Back on the original road (147), the road turns NW and crosses US 9, then immediately crosses the ex-RDG Cape May line. PRR is 220 m (800 ft) north. Because of the more northerly direction of the road, it approaches the PRR Wildwood Jct. location. The junction of Shunpike Rd. (northward) with 147 is the point of the wye of PRR Wildwood Jct. 147 then crosses right through the middle of where the wye used to be, keeping to the north side of the wye. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:59:01 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] odd request Hello All... This has nothing to do with the Pennsy....but i have a bit of a odd request to ask. As some of you know, my dad passed away last thursday. Since he is to be buried in upper New York state it was arranged to send him there via the NEC to NYC and from there to Albany. The trains were No.s 98 (Silver Meteor) and 291 (Ethan Allen) (dad had worked 98 on and off over the years) Anyway...I don't model Amtrak...but would like to get any information i can on the baggage car that was used. This car was No. 1235. I believe its a former Sante Fe car that was built during the late 1950's. I have a link to a site that shows Amtrak No. 1234 but i don't know if this is a sister car or not. I feel i might model this car someday and would appreciate any information on this car that anyone can provide. Thank You all Very much during this time Sincerly Hank Mummert Jr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:23:36 EST Subject: [PRR] B&O List Folks, I realize some of the folks on this list are also on the B&O list. Has anyone received any messages lately? I wrote the listmeister a few days ago and he said there'd been trouble for a few days. anyone had any action out there? Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 13:14:36 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] PRR Radio Decal PRR Gang: I have a question regarding the Radio decal that was applied to engines and cabin cars in the mid 1960's. Does anyone known when these decals started to show up on equipment? Was it late 1965? Early 1966? If my cut off date for modeling the Pennsy is 1965, should I be concerned about these decals? (I know that these decals are available from Raritan Hobbies in NJ) Ted Andrews Carmel Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Mar 99 13:25:29 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] PRR engine assignments PRR gang: I have another question this time regarding engine assignments on the Pennsy. Most diesel electics and steam engines were assigned to regions. My question is if those assignments were strict. For example, if an F-7 was assigned to the Lake Region, could this same engine occasionally go to adjacent or other regions? Due to traffic demands and the daily task of balancing motive power throughout the PRR, could this Lake Region F-7 occasionally be found in such places as Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, etc.? Any information on this would be helpful. Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 14:56:58 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O List BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > I realize some of the folks on this list are also on the B&O list. Has anyone > received any messages lately? I wrote the listmeister a few days ago and he > said there'd been trouble for a few days. anyone had any action out there? > Thanks, > Barry Peltier > > That reminds me - I have several pictures dated 7/20/51 (five days before I was born) that show my father and other PRR men at Cambridge, Ohio with several B&O steamers. The caption says "Last B&O engines at Cambridge". Does anyone know just what was shared between PRR and B&O there, and for how long? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O List Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 12:18:53 PST I haven't seen anything on the B&O list in well over a week. Andrew Harmantas ________________________ >I realize some of the folks on this list are also on the B&O list. Has anyone >received any messages lately? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 17:21:06 -0500 From: sam reynolds Subject: [PRR] Re: [READING] B&O List Barry and Andrew, As a subscriber to the B&O discussion group, I haven't seen any post for several months. I was wondering if this discussion group simply folded for some unknown reason. I was wanting to post an item to the group in order to find out about the B&O unit coal trains that ran north of Reading to Ludlowville, NY on the Lehigh Valley. Is the address for the B&O discussion group still capitolist@nshore.org? I think the last time I sent a message to that address, I received an error message that it did not exist. Thanks! Sam Reynolds BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > I realize some of the folks on this list are also on the B&O list. Has anyone > received any messages lately? I wrote the listmeister a few days ago and he > said there'd been trouble for a few days. anyone had any action out there? > Thanks, > Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:56:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR RS-3? To: PRR GROUP, Hello, I just come from a local train show and one vendor had Video Equipment set up for displaying new Videos. He was showing a video on the HO scale PRR layout that is featured in the most recent Model Railroader. While standing there watching several minutes of it something caught my eye when a trio of RS-3 pushers on a freight drag showed up in view. One of those RS-3's had antenna's. Nothing strange about that but what was strange is that it had two sets of antenna's. One on each side. Was there a prototype with this setup? It really looked odd! Just wondering, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 20:27:17 -0500 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Alco Brass B-1 I am excepting offers on a pair of Brass Alco B-1's. These are unpainted, good condition, and have their own boxes. Please email me offers. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:34:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR RS-3? The only RS-3 with two set of trainphone antennae was 8575 (renumbered to 5576) assigned to Renovo and Chesapeake Divisions at various times. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] I didn't get my Keystone :-( Date: Sat, 6 Mar 99 22:55:06 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/6/99 10:13 PM, Jerry Shickler (geshick@velocity.net) wrote: >About a week ago someone mentioned getting the Spring '99, but I don't >have it yet. Does everyone else have it? Just wondering if my >re-subscription got lost. Thanks. I didn't get it yet...and my renewal check has cleared already. I am BCC'ing this to Chuck Blardone (thus protecting his privacy) for possible feedback. Chuck? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:06:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR RS-3? To answer the question on the video showing the dual trainphone equipped RS-3's. You were watching Digital Image Works video on the "HELPER" operations on Ken McCorry's PRR North Central Region railroad. The RS-3's did come equipped with trainphones and some did indeed have a dual set, often referred to as an "antler rack". Photo's of such equipped RS-3's appear in PDY-3 page 52 showing the 8445 hammerhead with single trainphones leading the 5576 with dual train phones followed by a third RS-3 without any trainphones in Renovo yard 1967. Additional photos illustrating a more detail view of 5576 can be found in Vol I-Alco RS series of diesel locomotives by John D. Hahn, Jr/Withers Publishing; page 35 photo by Bill Volkmer. McCorry models the PRR helper operations out of Renovo yard and he models from the prototype so the HO version 5576's antler rack is in service in the helper pool. Cheers Brad C. Bower Sr. Editor Digital Image Works www.DIWKS.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 22:13:23 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] I didn't get my Keystone :-( About a week ago someone mentioned getting the Spring '99, but I don't have it yet. Does everyone else have it? Just wondering if my re-subscription got lost. Thanks. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLCCR@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:37:11 EST Subject: [PRR] Keystone back-issue source? I'm interested in locating a copy of an old Keystone, Volume #13, Issue #3. I saw on the list a while back someone had mentioned this issue contains an article on Lancaster, PA PRR operations. I would sure like to read it. Checked my back issues and mine don't go back that far. Is there a good source for back-issues....how about this one? Any advice or direction would be appreciated. Thanks. Bob Rubin. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:42:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I didn't get my Keystone :-( Ditto. I was just about to post the same query. Just had a big snow here (MA) and wish I had my Keystone to curl up with! Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:34:18 EST Subject: [PRR] E7 and K4s Greetings! > >I have two PRR items FA on Ebay. Check them out here: >http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw- >cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=paintloco@aol.com >Please email if you have any questions. >Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 09:04:27 EST Subject: [PRR] Waterfront/ Urban Railroading folks, For those who are interested in car floats and city railroading, check out the following website: http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/car-floats/car-floats.html Neat stuff. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] PRR E-8A 5706A WB on Conrail Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:45:24 -0500 Sighting News from The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP... Westbound at this time on Conrail... 3rd unit on PiBr7... PRR E-8A 5706A. This is apparently one of the two units painted in authentic PRR colors formerly operated on the Blue Mountain & Reading. It left Conway Yard (PA) early this morning, headed for Toledo, OH... then on to Blue Island, IL. The 5706A is reportedly consigned to Trans-Global Rail in Marshalltown, IA. Those wishing to photograph: Lead unit of PiBr7 leaving Conway is CR 6091. 2nd unit is CR 6791. The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP, located in Fallston, PA, approximately 25 miles from Pittsburgh and ten minutes from Conway Yard, is a unique railfan B&B similar to The STATION INN in Cresson, PA, but in a private home. The CSX mainline is literally in our backyard; Conrail mainlines are in full view just across the Beaver River. For printed information on The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP, send your snail mail address to the writer. Or call (724) 843-7023 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Tuttle" Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:42:19 +0000 Subject: [PRR] PRR Lines West? I've been lurkng out here on the list for quite a while, and have gathered a wealth of good information. Thank you all very much. But I keep reading about the PRR lines running east and west. In Winchester, Indiana, where I grew up and could see the PRR from the front window, the PRR went North and South. I heard rumors that there was a PRR line down in Richmond that went East and West, even had a cousin in Terre Haute who was an engineer who worked between there and St Louis. But I still see the PRR as a N-S railroad. Chuck -- Chuck Tuttle 765-463-0531 West Lafayette IN catuttle@gte.net Work: catuttle@purdue.edu 765-494-0313 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 13:39:18 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] PRR Lines West? If this will help, Chuck...the line from Cincinnati to Chicago was an East and West line to the PRR...although most thought of it as a North and South line. That was their designation...EB from Chicago to Cincinnati and WB from Cincinnati to Chicago. Surely they had it right...??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me check my compass." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too mcrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Spring Keystone... Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:32:32 -0500 ****Sorry to upset you, Jerry- I got a peek at an advance copy, the regular mailing is in progress. bill****** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: Re: [PRR] I didn't get my Keystone :-( Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:23:09 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Shickler To: PRR-talk Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 10:26 PM Subject: [PRR] I didn't get my Keystone :-( >About a week ago someone mentioned getting the Spring '99, but I don't >have it yet. Does everyone else have it? Just wondering if my >re-subscription got lost. Thanks. >-- Nothing here yet. I've been wondering the same thing. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:40:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I didn't get my Keystone :-( Likewise, I have not received the spring issue of the Keystone and my dues check cleared in December. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:49:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? In a message dated 3/7/99 1:11:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, catuttle@gte.net writes: > I've been lurkng out here on the list for quite a while, and have > gathered a wealth of good information. Thank you all very much. > But I keep reading about the PRR lines running east and west. In > Winchester, Indiana, where I grew up and could see the PRR from the > front window, the PRR went North and South. I heard rumors that > there was a PRR line down in Richmond that went East and West, even > had a cousin in Terre Haute who was an engineer who worked between > there and St Louis. But I still see the PRR as a N-S railroad. > Chuck, in railroad terminology in the US with a few notable exceptions all trains ran/run east or west regardless of the direction of the track by the compass. Direction is determined by the longitudinal location of the terminus vs that of the origin. PRR was organized into two operational units Lines East and Lines West. All PRR trackage east of Pittsburgh was Lines East and all West of Pittsburgh was Lines West. These were merged into one entity in the 20's. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:50:05 EST Subject: [PRR] Wanted: Conrail Track chart Cincinnati Div (1976-1980 era) Wanted: Conrail Track chart Cincinnati Div (1976-1980 era) - should show former PRR main from Richmond, IN to Indianapolis, IN. Will pay any reasonable price, or trade for Conrail Southwest -West Div. track chart from 1977. Frank Garon Frankgaron@aol.com 732-324-0231 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] I didn't get my Keystone :-( Date: Sun, 7 Mar 99 15:45:59 -0500 From: Jerry Here's the "official response" from the PRRT&HS: On 3/7/99 7:14 AM, Charles Blardone, Jr. (xxxxxxx) wrote: >The spring '99 "Keystone" won't be mailed to the membership for about >another week; Dave Scott has conducteda thorough review of the list, and >that's caused the delay. Also, we've about 400 members who haven't >renewed, and we wanted to wait a little to give fellows time to re-up. >This is a continuing headache, and causes us a lot of extra work, >dropping names, then (hopefully) adding them on again. This year's crop >of "no-shows" seems larger than usual, but Jim Lynch kept the statistics >to himself, and it's impossible to use an exact frame of reference. > >Contributors to the spring issue received their complimentary copies. >The directors also receive a gratis extra issue. Usually, this all >occurs concurrently, but not this time. > >The summer issue is on schedule, and there's no cause for any concern. >My only plea is for any fellows who haven't renewed and who wish to do >so to please send their checks in, to help minimize the handling of >labels and the mailing list. Dave doesn't need additional work - he has >a time-consuming job as is. Ivan Franz, one of the PRRT&HS directors, was at the Harrisburg show today. He had his advance copy. Geez, wait to you see the center spread in this issue. (Warning: wear a bib!) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:46:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? In a message dated 3/7/99 1:11:09 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, catuttle@gte.net writes: << Heard rumors that there was a PRR line down in Richmond that went east and west, even had a cousin in Terre Haute who was an engineer who worked between there and St. Louis. But I still see the PRR as an N-S railroad. >> The compass m ay have told you the GR&IRR went N-S but to the traffic department, there was only EAST and WEST It just made communications easier if every line was so designated the same way. I've got my Buckeye Region, and Southwestern employee time employee time tables packed away Out here the general rule was that east was heading towards from Philadelphia and west was heading away from Philly. I suspect that the GR&I line in Winchester was like the SPRINGFIELD branch here in Yellow Springs with west being headed Xenia to Springfield, Check an ETT for this Line to be sure. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:59:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Freight cars Four questions for the freight car guys: 1. How close is the old Revell gondola to a G31? 2. Besides the ends, what significant differences are there between the H21 and H25 hopper cars? 3. Is the old Mantual flatcar close to any Pennsy model? 4. On page 79 of Color Guide 2 are two G31s with extensions made from H21 sides. Three different paint schemes on one car. Were these cars, 386422 and 318678, ever repainted in one scheme? TIA for any help. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Show Date: Sun, 7 Mar 99 20:21:43 -0500 From: Jerry Just wanted to say "thanks" to the two dozen or so "PRR-Talkers" who stopped by my table at the show today and said hello. It's good to finally attach some faces to some names. It's also amazing how different faces are from those that our minds conjure up! "Dan the Man" Cupper was on hand, signing books for Withers Publishing. Ivan Franz, a PRRT&HS director, showed me his advance copy of the new Keystone. The center spread is a knockout...but in this issue there is no mention of copies being available for sale. Damned! Ivan mentioned that Camp Hill is now in concrete for the May 2000 convention. One possible tour that was discussed today was the hugely expanded ADM plant on the former Cumberland Valley Branch. No real news to report...this is a pretty small show. Thanks again to those who stopped by...and especially those who made purchases! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:56:09 EST Subject: [PRR] LWFFtreasurer named; any help is needed and welcome Gize, Tom Pulisfer of Xenia has agreed to act as an ad hoc treasure for the Lines West Fans Fest. Tom is well know in Ohio railfan circles as chairman and spiritual advisor of the Greene County Historical Society's Railroad Display committee and as a past president of the Ohio Rail Passenger Association. I am also stating know that any proceeds from the event will be used to support the preservation of Pennsylvania RR heritage or for educational activities increasing awareness about the PRR and its place in history, to use Dan Cupper's phrase. A voice vote at the end of activities Saturday shall decided how the proceed shall be disposed of. While I have rattled sabers in the past over my frustration with PRRT&HS policy, these actions are not a portent of, nor advocacy for, founding any permanent organization or association. The reasons are more personal... As some of you know this has not been an easy winter for me with my health causing a temporary interruption in my work history and my wife's hospitalization, surgery and ICU stay. This isn't bad news. We're all getting better but right now neither of use is able to work (My wife may be cleared for work as early as mid April, me, a little later if proper medication levels are established. Last week I filed fore Social Security disability and my wife and I filed for SSI and public assistance to get us through her recuperation and my treatment cycle and search for employment compatible with my intermittent ability to move (Just like Michael J. Fox I've got a buddy named Parkinson's who just won't go away.) According to the SSA & human services workers, there's nothing wrong with me handling money for the Fans Fest or reimbursing myself. Any profit that I would realize would have to be reported so my benefits could be later reduced accordingly. At this point I decided it was in my best interest to establish an accounting and allocation mechanism with someone to sign off on the books. PLAN IT AND THEY WILL COME. All this happened because I started thinking the other day "My God, what if someone besides myself shows up???!!!" With my anticipated expenses amounting to only $400 or some, my personal situation will not effect show operations. It'll just make its administration more formal and accountable by establishing paper trails for income and expense. I've made no commitment beyond trying to have as much fun as I can April 10 and 11. Advance registrations are beginning to trickle in. I've got some ordering deadlines coming up and I need to pay hall rental in full on or before March 20, buy an event-related $100,000 liability insurance policy and order hats. If you are considering buying the advance registration package, A Pennsylvania Lines ball cap, the Philly PRRT&Hs' 150th anniversary essay collection and research guide edited by Dan Cupper and the Saturday evening get together in the replica of Xenia's Panhandle freight station and XG tower please send check or money order as soon as possible. If you are living nearby and want to help out on the day of the show make a financial or in-kind contribution, suggest a use of proceeds, BY ALL MEANS, CONTACT by e-mail, snail mail, voice mail, Trainphone, heliostat, smoke signals or semaphores. Tom V. Tom Vondruska 326 W. Center College St. Yellow Springs, Ohio 45387-1406 937-767-1903, voice, data & fax ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 22:46:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight cars In a message dated 3/7/99 10:27:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Four questions for the freight car guys: 1. How close is the old Revell gondola to a G31? 2. Besides the ends, what significant differences are there between the H21 and H25 hopper cars? >> OK I think I can take a stab at the first two. Is the old revel kit the one that was redone by Con-cor? If it is there was an article a few years back about turning one into the G31. The major steps involved removing the rivets, changing the contour of the sidesill and reworking the ends. I actually started the kitbash but it ended in my scrap box after I botched the sides. 2) The H25 had straight ribs on the sides where the H21 had tapers on the ends. I also think the H25 had a stiffer top chord but most H21's also had reworked top chords. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 22:36:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight cars In a message dated 3/7/99 9:27:10 PM Central Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << How close is the old Revell gondola to a G31? >> Bob and list, I've seen a couple of articles on making the few modifications necessary. I think the fishbelly side is too deep, and the end sills have to be modified. I believe Bill Darnaby wrote one of the articles. One is in a current Kalmback freight car book. Al Stump ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Hank's Dad...Andy' s centerspread in the Spring Keystone Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 01:22:24 -0500 ***Sorry, very busy week, but wanted to let Hank know that while we did not arrive in Trenton in time Tuesday to meet #98, we had to settle for offering a moving horn salute to your Dad while enroute on the former PRR Main, " en passant " / in passing, for the non chess players. And Jerry now knows why I praised List Personality Andy H. so much for his exceptional PRR Artistic ability, as shown in the Spring Keystone centerspread !!!! Bill********** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:20:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? In a message dated 3/8/99 8:20:55 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << Quoting Buckeye Region Timetable No. 1 April 29, 1956,... "The direction from Xenia to Springfield is eastward". >> Rick, In making my earlier erroneous post I violated my own rule "East is toward Philadelphia," thus east on a local branch or secondary could be expected to be heading toward the main line -- the way to Philadelphia -- and west would be away from the mainline. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Mar 99 08:43:17 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] PRR Lines West? Just FYI, Athearn's recent announcement of the USRA Light Mikado has a direct tie to the old GR&I. The PRR had five or six of these units that were assigned to the GR&I. There is documentation (Stauffer) that states that these engines were commonly found in the Cincinnati area but probably ventured north (or west as per PRR) on the GR&I. Ted Andrews Speaking of the GR&I, it was operated as part of a 533-mile through route "north" from Cincinnati, but the direction of trains out of Cincinnati (e.g. 71,73 75, 519) is "westward". This route is made up of track segments like: 1. Richmond Branch, Cincinnati (MP 0.7) to GLEN (MP 72.4), actually running northwest 2. 2.4 mile segment of Panhandle main (Pittsburgh-St.Louis), GLEN westward to NEWMAN, actually running west 3. Fort Wayne Branch, NEWMAN (MP 0.3 out of Richmond IN) "westward" to ADAMS tower (MP 86.6), actually running straight north 4. short segment westward through Fort Wayne, ADAMS- MIKE-Fort Wayne-Junction 5. GR&I, Junction tower "westward" through Grand Rapids to Mackinac City. This segment is almost 400 miles running northward, and once was a busy line for vacationers headed north. In fact, the GR&I's advertising slogan was "The Fishing Line". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 07:08:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? In a message dated 3/7/99 9:16:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > I suspect that the GR&I line in Winchester was like > the SPRINGFIELD branch here in Yellow Springs with west being headed Xenia > to > Springfield, Check an ETT for this Line to be sure. > Quoting Buckeye Region Timetable No. 1 April 29, 1956... "The direction from Xenia to Springfield is eastward". If we consider that the main from Cincinnati to Xenia is eastward, and that the switch to the Springfield Branch is facing-point eastward, then this practically had to be true. Also, we know that ancestrally, the Little Miami line was continuous from Cincinnati to Springfield via Xenia, which usually resulted in line segments with the same timetable direction even after a century or so. I AM going out on a limb with the following: - I believe that the first mileposts on the Little Miami started at Cincinnati (really Pendleton) and ran upwards through Xenia to Springfield. - Later, recognizing that traffic was reoriented toward Columbus, mileposts were started at Columbus and ran upward to Cincinnati. This latter pattern remained until the end of the Pennsy. In 1956, MPs were: 0 Columbus 25.0 London 54.7 Xenia (Springfield Branch enters main here) 83.2 Morrow 111.0 Clare (N&W yard) 114.7 Undercliff (PRR yard and site of L&N interchange) 116.4 Pendleton (ancestral yard and modern engine terminal) 119.7 Cincinnati (probably old Panhandle depot, razed 1963) Speaking of the GR&I, it was operated as part of a 533-mile through route "north" from Cincinnati, but the direction of trains out of Cincinnati (e.g. 71,73 75, 519) is "westward". This route is made up of track segments like: 1. Richmond Branch, Cincinnati (MP 0.7) to GLEN (MP 72.4), actually running northwest 2. 2.4 mile segment of Panhandle main (Pittsburgh-St.Louis), GLEN westward to NEWMAN, actually running west 3. Fort Wayne Branch, NEWMAN (MP 0.3 out of Richmond IN) "westward" to ADAMS tower (MP 86.6), actually running straight north 4. short segment westward through Fort Wayne, ADAMS- MIKE-Fort Wayne-Junction 5. GR&I, Junction tower "westward" through Grand Rapids to Mackinac City. This segment is almost 400 miles running northward, and once was a busy line for vacationers headed north. In fact, the GR&I's advertising slogan was "The Fishing Line". RLT LWF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [PRR] B.L England Rail Line Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:28:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BE694E.68AD3560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All Does anyone have a timetable for the rail line into Atlantic Electrics = Coal supply (Now Conectiv Energy) or a web page that I could=20 look at one.=20 Is there any info on Winsloe Junction in New Jersey also? Thanks=20 Wayne F. Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BE694E.68AD3560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All
 
Does anyone have a timetable for the = rail line=20 into Atlantic Electrics Coal supply (Now Conectiv Energy) or a web page = that I=20 could
look at one.
 
Is there any info on Winsloe = Junction in New=20 Jersey also?
 
Thanks
Wayne F. Dibert
102016.1343@worldnet.att.net=
 
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BE694E.68AD3560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 10:52:30 -0500 From: John Griffin Subject: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 Hi all, My main area of interest is modelling Renovo PA to Emporium PA. I am researching some operational features and hope some of you could help. Of specific interest today are the passenger Trains 571-971 and 970-570. How was the split of 571-971 handled? How was the consolidation of 970-570 handled? Both of these trains will figure prominently of my layout. Thanks. BTW. if this question is too specific to be of general interest to the list, please reply directly. Thanks again. - John - John Griffin Senior IT Specialist Computer Support Services CAE Electronics Ltd pho 514.341.2000 x3332 fax 514.340.5583 net griffin@cae.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:59:22 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? This also applies to the former PRR Buffalo to Harrisburg line that as far as I know has always been timetabled as a North/South Line On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chuck Tuttle wrote: > I've been lurkng out here on the list for quite a while, and have > gathered a wealth of good information. Thank you all very much. > But I keep reading about the PRR lines running east and west. In > Winchester, Indiana, where I grew up and could see the PRR from the > front window, the PRR went North and South. I heard rumors that > there was a PRR line down in Richmond that went East and West, even > had a cousin in Terre Haute who was an engineer who worked between > there and St Louis. But I still see the PRR as a N-S railroad. > > Chuck > -- > Chuck Tuttle 765-463-0531 > West Lafayette IN catuttle@gte.net > Work: catuttle@purdue.edu 765-494-0313 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:19:44 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRR Layout plans Hi all, I just got back from traveling to Orlando for a conference, and while on the road, I took some time to plan my new layout. My problem has been that the room I intended to occupy just wasn't big enough. My lovely wife suggested that we build an addition to the garage for the train room, so now I have a 20' by ? (I have to decide the other dimension, but it will likely be 20' or 25'. I thought I would take the time to share the outline with you. Hopefully, I will have some plans drawn in the next few weeks. Critical to all of the ideas below is an estimation of the grades that will be needed/possible to make it all happen! The layout will be double decked, with Columbia on the "long" (if 25') or west wall. The A&S and C&PD will go up and down onto the North wall (Safe Harbor), and around a peninsula off of the north wall. Approximately 1/3 of the way around the peninsula, they will become separate decks. The A&S will cross the Martic Forge Bridge, and then curve back around to the East Wall to a staging yard (Thornadale). The C&PD will do likewise, with a short tunnel at the end of the pennisula, and the Octoraro crossing modeled on the east side of peninsula, and of course, I will model Rock, and then staging (Perryville). Headed out of Columbia the other way, the A&S will rise more gradually, and the Columbia Branch will follow suit. The army depot at Marietta on the Columbia branch will be modeled on the South wall, and at the very east end of the south wall, there will be a duckunder for the door out of the room. Both the A&S and the Columbia branch will continue around to the East wall to (Enola) staging (just under Thorndale). I may have a connecting track (steep grade) between Thorndale and Enola Staging to allow continuous running and exchange of cars. Finally, the Octoraro branch will depart the C&PD at Rock, pass under the C&PD at the Octoraro Creek bridge, and briefly go out of sight, to emerge at the end of the pennisula as the bottom deck, under the C&PD. This will be possible, because of the grade separation already present at Octoraro Creek. The Octararo Branch will mosey along the lower deck through several towns along the West wall, including the Elkview trestle (out of sequence) to end up on the South wall at Oxford. This will give me the best of many worlds...heavy double track mainline action, with helpers on the A&S, single track main action on the C&PD, switching in the Columbia yard, and Marietta, and a bucolic local division, complete with 2 car passenger trains and reefers full of mushrooms on the Octararo Branch (Oh yeah, and gons loaded with horse S*&T and hay headed for the mushroom houses!). Comments are appreciated! Haoppy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 22:12:28 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] USGS Map Resources Hi John, All, I was able to get to the USGS site and find the names of the maps I need without a problem. However when I went to the Penn State site it loaded a blank dark grey page. Am I doing something wrong? Have others made it to the Penn State site and been able to download the maps? I intend to purchase hard copies of these maps but it would be nice to have the electronic versions until I can aqcuire the paper versions. Thanks, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Lines West? Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:12:45 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of alcoman Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 11:59 AM To: Chuck Tuttle Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? Chuck, you said: This also applies to the former PRR Buffalo to Harrisburg line that as far as I know has always been timetabled as a North/South Line PRR ETT Central Region No. 4 in effect 3:01 AM 10/29/67 - Re: Mainline Harrisburg-Buffalo. The direction from Buffalo is southward. The direction from JN to Rockville is eastward. I suspect it had been this way for awhile. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:36:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] USGS Map Resources Hello to Ron and all: It has taken all weekend because of the need for a fair amount of outside help, but I have managed today to see one of these maps. Here's how I had to do it: Those USGS maps are FTP'd to you in a zipped format, which is what the .zip file extension stands for. This was done I believe to conserve storage space or transmission bandwidth. After receipt into your computer or account, you must un-zip them. They will then be in a TIFF graphics format, with a .tif extension. If you do not have a viewing tool or software that can handle this TIFF format, you will need to convert to GIF (readable by Netscape Navigator) or possibly another format. In my case, the Netscape 4.0 I have and every other application on my computer system cannot interpret this particular TIFF format, so I had a friend try downloading, unzipping, and converting one of them to GIF (.gif extension) for me. He then e-mailed me the result (Caution - It was a 4 MEG e-mail!) Then I was able to view it using Netscape 4.0's Open Page...Choose File function, specifying the .gif file on my desktop by name. It may take up to 4 minutes to load into your viewer, depending on your machine. The result is quite a zoomed-in view of the total map. The colors are virtually exact to those of the paper maps, which I have acquired a few of over the years. They are from the 60's, as the RR lines say Penn Central. They have updated overlay printing for newer highways and building changes, in colors like purple and pink, with an update key along the map bottom. Some updates are as late as 1993. I can't help much on how to acquire unzipping or conversion software, as these areas are very new to me. I believe there may be net sites from which you can download free software so that one can do the conversions on one's own machine. I'll be looking into this shortly myself and if no one else has info, I will report on what I find out. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:07:49 -0500 I am going through my Time-Tables for the Williamsport Division of the PRR that is on the Harrisburg Buffalo line and it is timetabled as a East West line. -----Original Message----- From: alcoman To: Chuck Tuttle Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? > >This also applies to the former PRR Buffalo to Harrisburg line that as far >as I know has always been timetabled as a North/South Line > >On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chuck Tuttle wrote: > >> I've been lurkng out here on the list for quite a while, and have >> gathered a wealth of good information. Thank you all very much. >> But I keep reading about the PRR lines running east and west. In >> Winchester, Indiana, where I grew up and could see the PRR from the >> front window, the PRR went North and South. I heard rumors that >> there was a PRR line down in Richmond that went East and West, even >> had a cousin in Terre Haute who was an engineer who worked between >> there and St Louis. But I still see the PRR as a N-S railroad. >> >> Chuck >> -- >> Chuck Tuttle 765-463-0531 >> West Lafayette IN catuttle@gte.net >> Work: catuttle@purdue.edu 765-494-0313 >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >> Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> > >William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations >alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System >x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network >http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud >bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server > >Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lines West? Date: Mon, 8 Mar 99 15:01:00 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/8/99 2:07 PM, Wayne Dibert (102016.1343@worldnet.att.net) wrote: >I am going through my Time-Tables for the Williamsport Division of the PRR >that is on the Harrisburg Buffalo line and it is timetabled as a East West >line. The Northern Central Railway, absorbed by the PRR and with segments renamed as various branches, stretched from Baltimore through York, Harrisburg, Sunbury, Williamsport, Elmira, to Sodus Point. This was considered a north/south line. However, because things branched out so much...Williamsport west to Erie, Williamsport west then northwest to Buffalo, etc., north was made synonymous with west and south synonymous with east. This also allowed Form 1 schedules for trains like the Liberty Limited to be listed as east-west trains, rather than "east to Harrisburg, then south to Washington". Hope this helps. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 -Reply Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:03:18 -0500 Sorry John. I do remember the train that ran to Erie. My grandfather use to engineer it as well as freights and the like. He retired from being a yard engineer on the westend of Renovo yard. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago. I know my dad will have the answer for you. He is on vacation right now and should be back home in another week. When I talk to him I will ask him. I still don't remember them adding any cars onto the trains as they went through though. They probably just cut a couple cars off in Emporium and picked up an engine there. They always had equipment there because that was the starting point for Keating Summit. W.F. Dibert -----Original Message----- From: John Griffin To: 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 -Reply >Hi Wayne, > > Thanks for the info on the Renovo end. 571 ran from Harrisburg to >Buffalo. However, from Emporium 971 would run to Erie. I'm trying to >figure out how 571 was split to create 971. Also 570 ran from Buffalo to >Harrisburg. An Erie train (970) ran to Emporium. Again, I'd like to >understand how 970 was consolidated with 570. Thanks again. > > - John - > > >John Griffin >Senior IT Specialist >Computer Support Services >CAE Electronics Ltd >pho 514.341.2000 x3332 >fax 514.340.5583 >net griffin@cae.ca > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 16:27:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Unzipping USGS Map Resources In a message dated 3/8/99 2:31:13 PM Central Standard Time, chaslett@cse.l-3com.com writes: << I can't help much on how to acquire unzipping or conversion software, as these areas are very new to me. I believe there may be net sites from which you can download free software so that one can do the conversions on one's own machine. >> To List Go to your favorite search engine and search for WinZip95. This will be the shareware version which you can use immediately. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:30:43 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Hello All (not PRR related) Hello All... I want to thank everyone who sent their condolences and support over the past week or so. I have been checking my mail and have been talking to some folks on the list on and off. So more or less i'm back...sort of. Although none of this is PRR related i felt that i should at least say thank you here to you all. I also found out yesterday that when dad,casket and car got up to New York thuesday last that a service was held there at Penn Station for him. This was totally unexpected by any in the family. I've been told that many were there including Amtrak bosses. I've also been told by my dad's brother-in-law, that many railroad folks "came out of the woodwork" to help out although Kieth his brother-in-law was the only one who knew how to unload the casket. I plan on modeling the car that was used (Amtrak baggage car no.1235) and luckly have a close version of the car on hand (Athearn baggage)(although a overland sante fe car is closer.) It has amazed me that so many folks have come out to help and for the services. I knew dad had known a lot of folks...but never really knew he had known so many. On another note. Over the years i had tried to go to work doing railroad work...but for one reason or another it never worked out. (I could have worked at potomac yard for southern...but lived in Charlotte NC at the time and declined the job,also later i took the tests,background check and physical for NS..passed..but was never called in.) A couple of years ago i could have gone to work for Amtrak on the NEC...but had more or less givem up on trying for railroad work and resigned my self to this. I had known that dad wanted the see me do it and this January past had even mentioned that Amtrak was gonna 20 conductors for the NEC... even though he knew that i had given up on it. With his death i finally realized how much he would have liked to see me work for the railroad...So in light of this i've decided to try one more time over the next 2-3 years. I'm 41 and feel that after i were to turn 45 or so it would be best to finally stop trying. But i feel i need to try as it is something dad would have wanted to see me do. I don't know about the NEC...but maybe the Newport News to Washington run or maybe for VRE between Richmond and Washington. I'll let you all know what happens. Til Later Henry (Hank) Mummert Jr. PS I'm sorry if i tend to ramble on with all of this...but perhaps its helping me to do so. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Tuttle" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:56:29 +0000 Subject: [PRR] RE: Lines West ? Hmmm. Well, I guess that my attempt at humor in support of the lesser lines of the PRR needed some help. Maybe a few smileys or a couple of big s in there somewhere. I seem to have been just a bit too subtle. But, I will say thanks to all of you who replied. There was not one flame anywhere and friendly attempts to help me out. Yes, I know that the PRR was an east-west railroad. But too well hidden in my message were the memories of a young boy along a relatively minor line of the PRR. To him, the PRR was a north-south railroad. It wasn't until one of the local switchmen in WInchester took to talking with that kid that was always hanging around watching the local that I found out more about the PRR. When he gave me several years worth of Pennsy magazines, I discovered that to the rest of the world the PRR was big time railroading. And I saw places that I'd only heard of and other places that I'd never heard of. Oh, we'd get down to Richmond every now and then for Sunday dinner and I'd see the PRR trains roar through town and on occasion we got all the way up to Ridgeville, 7 miles north, and I found another PRR up there. I knew that line came from Union City and went somewhere to the north-west. I even remember a short PRR line from Muncie to Mathews. I couldn't figure out what that line was doing there, since the PRR didn't go to Muncie. In Winchester, we had big time railroading. The Big Four blasted through town on a regular basis. My first railroad experience was with the NYC. At the age of three, mom would let me sit on the front steps of the appartment building we owned just a block south of the NYC and watch the trains go by. You could hear them coming and I'd have time to get out to watch. Then one day, I went out and the train went by. The gates started to go up and traffic started across. Then the gates started down again. The horn sounded and the trucker froze. And before I knew what was happening, a passenger train plowed into the side of that trailer loaded with jelly glasses from the Anchor Hocking plant. That was more sight and sound than I could take and it was weeks before I'd go out when there was a train, although mom dragged me kicking and screaming down the the tracks to see the mess. That was 45 years ago, and if you look closely today, you can still find a lot of glass at that crossing. And I can still picture the whole thing in my mind. Shortly after, we moved to the other side of town. It wasn't very far. But there was another railroad over there. We were only a couple of blocks away and up on a hill, so that I could see through the houses and watch those trains from the safety of my own house. They runbled through town at a leisurely pace. Had to since they were going down the middle of Railroad Avenue. And for some reason, that railroad just grew on me. As I got older and could wander around town by myself, I spent quite a bit of time watching it. A friend and I would meet and spend the day down at the diamonds. He liked the NYC and I the PRR. We made a pretty good pair. When I got to college at Purdue, I managed to get a car. And I found Logansport. I sure wish I'd have taken more photos there. And North Judson. And then that little line out of Muncie one day was gone, just a line of ties across the fields. Then that line through Ridgeville from Union City only had one track. Then I went home and they were pulling up the line that we called the GR&I. The north-south line that I grew up with. It was a really sad day. But, I had my piece of history and something to help remember. When it was apparent that the old station in town wasn't much longer for this world, I sat down and wrote a letter to Penn Central asking if I could have the sign from the station. To my surprise, they said "fill out these liability forms, and be careful when you take it down". It still hangs in my basement. Right over the layout that, while not modeling any specific part of the PRR, will have mostly PRR equipment and follow PRR pracitces. And, even though I'm not quite sure where this layout goes, it runs north and south, like the Pennsy was meant to. Well, if you've gotten this far, I'm sure you know more about me than you want to. But, thanks for reading, thanks for all of the advice, and thanks for the friendship. Chuck -- Chuck Tuttle 765-463-0531 West Lafayette IN catuttle@gte.net Work: catuttle@purdue.edu 765-494-0313 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 -Reply Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:09:04 -0500 Hi Walt I will see what I can find on the area that you are looking for. That is a great area to model. There are some interesting branches in that stretch of road that will model quite well. There is another person on this chat that is modeling the same stretch that you want to do and he lives in Erie. Maybe he could help you too. Good luck I'll see what I can do. Here is his E-Mail address ODyard@aol.com Wayne F. Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net There is another -----Original Message----- From: walter mcwilliams To: Wayne Dibert <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 -Reply >Wayne, how you doing. I to am very interested in erie to renovo line. >Right now im gathering info on the 10thst branch in erie. Someday when I >have the time and space I hope to model erie to renovo. Any help you or >your father may be able to provide would be of great assistance. In >particular Im looking for a track map of Erie and the 10th st branch from >mid century. Even a hand drawn one would be of assistance >thanks very much >walt >-----Original Message----- >From: Wayne Dibert <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 12:09 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 -Reply > > >>Sorry John. >>I do remember the train that ran to Erie. My grandfather use to engineer it >>as well as freights and the like. He retired from being a yard engineer on >>the westend of Renovo yard. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago. I >>know my dad will have the answer for you. He is on vacation right now and >>should be back home in another week. When I talk to him I will ask him. I >>still don't remember them adding any cars onto the trains as they went >>through though. They probably just cut a couple cars off in Emporium and >>picked up an engine there. They always had equipment there because that was >>the starting point for Keating Summit. >>W.F. Dibert >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Griffin >>To: 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> >>Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 2:30 PM >>Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 -Reply >> >> >>>Hi Wayne, >>> >>> Thanks for the info on the Renovo end. 571 ran from Harrisburg to >>>Buffalo. However, from Emporium 971 would run to Erie. I'm trying to >>>figure out how 571 was split to create 971. Also 570 ran from Buffalo to >>>Harrisburg. An Erie train (970) ran to Emporium. Again, I'd like to >>>understand how 970 was consolidated with 570. Thanks again. >>> >>> >> - John - >>> >>> >>>John Griffin >>>Senior IT Specialist >>>Computer Support Services >>>CAE Electronics Ltd >>>pho 514.341.2000 x3332 >>>fax 514.340.5583 >>>net griffin@cae.ca >>> >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >>Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 22:59:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lines West ? In a message dated 3/8/99 10:10:14 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, catuttle@gte.net writes: << I even remember a short PRR line from Muncie to Mathews. I couldn't figure out what that line was doing there, since the PRR didn't go to Muncie. >> *Ahem* Chuck, before 1927 it did. That's when the Central Indiana from Muncie west to Noblesville was abandoned or sold. Eventually it was spun off as an independent subsidiary with the PRR and NYC each owning a half share. We just had a pretty through discussion of the CIRR about 10 days ago. This will be on the test...{;-) <> Don't apologize. I waxed eloquent a few weeks ago about my time at Ohio U. watching the B&O which is a direct reason I now, rather indirectly, model the north-south PRR through Yellow Springs Ohio which was N-S before there even was a PRR. We're a bit like the blind men examining the elephant. Each of us have our own little piece of the PRR. For me its the single-tracked mainlines from Xenia to Dayton and from Xenia to Cincinnati which was one of the reasons you saw trains about an hour later or an hour earlier in Richmond. When I say "the REAL Pennsylvania Railroad didn't have no stinkin' catenary," I should be saying the Pennsylvania Railroad I remember didn't have catenary but the Pennsylvania Railroad that Jerry Britton, Dan Cupper and others remember did have catenary and big four tracked mains and flyovers. But it was all part of the Pennsylvania Railroad. One reason that I'm sponsoring the PRR Lines West Fans Fest in Xenia, next to the Right of Way of the Little Miami Railroad, the oldest rail line that was part of Pennsy Lines West is to insure that "Our" Pennsylvania Railroad is as well remembered as theirs. And there's no flames because we're here to have fun and learn ourselves. Answering these questions give us a REASON to have all those ETTs and track crafts and rule books et cetra our wives say we spend way too much money on. Tom V. "PRR Lines West Forever!!!!" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 01:52:28 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lines West ? Chuck Tuttle wrote: > > It wasn't until one of the local switchmen in WInchester took to > talking with that kid that was always hanging around watching the > local that I found out more about the PRR . Greetings to Chuck and the list: What an eloquent statement your essay made. Thank you for sharing it -- I enjoyed every word. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 119:105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] WANTED: Harrisburg, Pa. Date: Tue, 9 Mar 99 09:05:22 -0500 From: Jerry This will be a repeat request for many on the list... To assist me with my 1954 HO Scale modeling of Harrisburg, Pa., I am seeking short-term loans of ORIGINAL blueprints, photos, and other documents related to the following: Harrisburg Passenger Station -- (I have a "to scale" 1964 track blueprint. I also have the recent issue of The Keystone which featured the station.) McClay Street/Reilly Street Locomotive Terminal -- (I have seen a poor photocopy of a Railway Age article from the late 1930's/early 1940's; seeking original. "To scale" blueprint really desired. Photos of all outbuildings are scarce. I do have the Pennsy Journal issue featuring the diesel facility, and the Rails Northeast issue on the steam facility.) REA/Freight House area -- just south of station. Was this all REA, or was only one shed (closest to the station) REA and the large building along Second Street non-REA? Would like photos of entire area, including Harrisburg Gas Company, which sat between the REA and the main line. There is a "History of the REA" book which includes 7 photos of Harrisburg. I bid (but lost) one of these on eBay. Anyone have a copy? Coach Yard -- was this between the passenger mains and the freight mains across from the Harrisburg Gas Company/REA area (between Mulberry Street bridge and the Reading RR bridge), or further south, below Paxton Street where Amtrak continues to have a few spurs (by Pennsy Supply Co.)? Need originals for hi-res scanning. Will return promptly. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 09:30:48 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Lines West ? Chuck: I was one of those who got and appreciated your humor. I too have an interest in a north-south line (South Bend Branch) although I am primarily doing the Ft. Wayne line in northern Indiana. It is interesting how a railroad like the PRR can influence people but with different perspectives. Yours is primarily a midwestern branchline. Someone else could of been influenced by the mainline in the mountains of Pennslylvania while someone else could have been influenced by harbour operations along the Jersey coast. My first encounter with the PRR was on a nameless passenger train between New York and Baltimore in 1963. It was pulled by a GG-1 although I was only 1 year old at the time I can't remember anything about the trip. (my dad told me that it was a GG-1 later) When I was about 5 or 6, I remember seeing boxcars with keystones on them when I visited my relatives in Monroe, Michigan. They lived less than a mile from the C&O in which the PRR had trackage rights on for access to Detriot. After the Penn Central merger, I was introduced to the South Bend branch. My uncle owned an aluminum fabrication and distribution plant in South Bend less than a mile south of Union Station. The PRR branchline was right behind my uncle's business although he was not serviced by rail. Lastly, I was introduced to Raymond Lowey's work with the Pennsy (the GG1-1 and especially all of those streamlined steamers) Since these engines ran basically on the "Speedway," I was drawn to model the Ft. Wayne line in Indiana. Just in case you have not recognized who I am Chuck, I regularly visit Hawkins Rail Serice (a VERY GOOD train shop) in Lafayette, Indiana. I have done so ever since my days at Purdue. You used to be a standard fixture there too in the '80's. You sold me a body shell of an Athearn SD-45 that you detailed and painted. It was Pennsy unit No. 6221. You said that you modeled this particular unit because you saw it going through Winchester many years ago. What goes around, comes around! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana P.S. Number 6221 is active and is still pulling trains on my Ft. Wayne line layout. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] RE: Lines West ? Author: catuttle@gte.net at Internet Date: 3/8/99 10:05 PM Hmmm. Well, I guess that my attempt at humor in support of the lesser lines of the PRR needed some help. Maybe a few smileys or a couple of big s in there somewhere. I seem to have been just a bit too subtle. Chuck -- Chuck Tuttle 765-463-0531 West Lafayette IN catuttle@gte.net Work: catuttle@purdue.edu 765-494-0313 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:40:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] T1 Tender deck details PRR LIST, Hello, I am in the process of painting an Alco Models T1 for a customer. This question goes out to either the prototype guys or the modelers on this list. As of now I have everything painted DGLE and Black that is supose to be painted in those particular colors. I just painted the tender deck and coal space an oxide reddish color. Right now it is baking in the oven. My question is do I need to go back now and paint the tanks, recieving coils and the other details that lie behind the slope sheet on the tender black or DGLE or should those parts be left oxide color as well? I will be painting the antenna mast and piping black. And no I didn't forget to place the oxide color inside the Loco stack. Does any modeler out there have a Factory painted T1 from Key to check how they fiished theirs? Thanks in advance. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 10:44:44 -0500 From: John Griffin Subject: [PRR] USGS Map Resources Hi All, I'm very sorry if my original post caused more than a few of you any frustration. I should have offered more detail to ease your potential use of this data. On the Pennsylvania State site (http://www.pasda.psu.edu/search.cgi?k=DRG) you will find a list of available DRG (digital raster graphic) maps. Click on the map of interest and you will go to a page that allows you to download that map. The map is compressed in a .zip file. At www.winzip.com your can download an evaluation (Free) copy of WinZip. This program will allow you to extract the .tiff formatted map. On the USGS site go to mcmcweb.er.usgs.gov/viewers/dlg_view.html to download the DRG viewer(dlgv32 3.6). With the DRG viewer you can pan around the map and zoom down. I hope this answers any questions and again, I apologize if my original post was confusing. - John - John Griffin Senior IT Specialist Computer Support Services CAE Electronics Ltd pho 514.341.2000 x3332 fax 514.340.5583 net griffin@cae.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:47:54 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Off Topic UnZipping was Re: [PRR] USGS Map Resources Greetings to Carl and the group, To un zip a .zip file you need something like winzip32. It's free. (They make their money on the "zipping" or compression software.) Many sites have winzip32. You can try http://www.winzip.com/ Hope this helps. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > >I can't help much on how to acquire unzipping or conversion software, >as these areas are very new to me. I believe there may be net sites >from which you can download free software so that one can do the >conversions on one's own machine. I'll be looking into this shortly >myself and if no one else has info, I will report on what I find out. > >Carl Haslett > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:12:36 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: [PRR] Re: Trains 571-971 and 970-570 Greetings to John and the group, John, might you be confusing trains 570 and 571 with trains 574-580 and 575-581? Train 570 was the Washington Express. Train 571 was the Buffalo Day Express. These trains ran between Buffalo and Washington and did not split/combine at Erie at least from the late 40s on, as far as I can find. However, Trains 574-580 (Dominion Express-Southern Express) and 575-581 (Dominion Express-Northern Express) are the trains that spilt/combined at Emporium after April 1954. [Susquehanna Division Employee Timetable General Order 311 sticker indicates that Trains 580 and 581 schedules were withdrawn Emporium south on April 25, 1954.] Prior to April 1954 Train 580, the Southern Express ran from Erie to Washington DC. Train 581, the Northern Express ran from Washington DC to Erie. Train 574 and 575, both named the Dominion Express, ran between Buffalo and Washington DC. After 1954 Train 574-580 became the Dominion Express/Southern Express from Emporium south. From Buffalo to Emporium Train 574 existed just as the Dominion Express. From Erie to Emporium, Train 580, the Southern Express continued to exist. They combined at Emporium to become 574-580 for the rest of the trip south. Train 575-581 ran from Washington DC to Emporium as the combined Dominion Express/Northern Express. At Emporium, the train split. Train 581, the Northern Express continued on to Erie. Train 575, the Dominion Express continued on to Buffalo. According to the April 1956 issue of _The Official Guide...…,the passenger consist of Train 575-581, at Emporium, was as follows: Lounge Car Washington to Buffalo 8 S Buffet Sleeping Cars Phil to Buffalo (From #615 at Harrisburg) 10 RM 5 DB Wash to 10 RM 5 DB Wash to Erie (To 581 at Emporium) 10 S 3 DB NYC to Erie (From #1 at Harrisburg to 581 at Emporium) 8 S 5 DB NYC to Erie M W F (From #1 at Harrisburg to 581 at Emporium) 10 S 3 DB NYC to Emporium Th only (From #1 at Harrisburg) 12 S 1 DrRm [This car was probably for Sylvania personnel. D. McGhee] Cafe Car Washington to Erie (To 581 at Emporium) Coaches Washington to Buffalo Phil to Erie ( From #615 at Harrisburg to 581 at Erie) Again according to the April 1956 issue of _The Official Guide...…,the passenger consist of Train 574-580, at Emporium, was as follows: Lounge Car Buffalo to Wash 10 S Buffet Sleeping Cars Buffalo to Phil (To #36 at Harrisburg) 10 RM 5 DB Buffalo to Wash 10 RM 5 DB Erie to Wash (From #580 at Emporium) 10 S 3 DB Erie to NYC (From #580 at Emporium to #30 at Harrisburg) 10 S 5 DB Erie to NYC S Tu Th (From #580 at Emporium to #20 at Harrisburg) 10 S 3 DB Café Car Erie to Harrisburg (From #580 at Emporium) Coaches Buffalo to Wash Buffalo to Phil (To #36 at Harrisburg) Erie to Harrisburg (From #580 at Emporium) As for the order of the cars, the listing in _The Official Guide..._, is probably not the order used by the PRR. According to PRR's April 24, 1955 Northern Division Employee Timetable #7, The combined Train 575-581 reached Emporium at 3:59 AM. Train 575 continued on to Buffalo at 420 AM. Train 581 started on its journey to Erie at 4:35 AM. Again, according to PRRs #7 Northern Division Timetable, the individual Train 574 reach Emporium from Buffalo at 10:44 PM. Individual Train 580 from Erie reached Emporium at 10:35 PM. Combined at Emporium Train 574-580 left Emporium at 11:14 PM for points south. Sorry, can't be of any help on head end equipment. There was a Keystone article a few years ago about RPOs. That article should have some info for you at least on the RPOs. Hope the info was of some help to you. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Off Topic UnZipping was Re: [PRR] USGS Map Resources Date: Tue, 9 Mar 99 12:24:39 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/9/99 11:47 AM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: >To un zip a .zip file you need something like winzip32. It's free. (They >make their money on the "zipping" or compression software.) Many sites have >winzip32. You can try > >http://www.winzip.com/ For Mac users, StuffIt has an option to "unzip". This is a standard PC archive format, comparable to the Mac's standard of StuffIt's .SEA or .SIT format. Similarly, StuffIt can also dearchive a .TAR file, the UNIX standard. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:30:49 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] USGS Map Resources John Griffin reports: > I'm very sorry if my original post caused more than a few of you any > frustration. I should have offered more detail to ease your potential use > of this data. On the Pennsylvania State site > (http://www.pasda.psu.edu/search.cgi?k=DRG) you will find a list of > available DRG (digital raster graphic) maps. Click on the map of > interest and you will go to a page that allows you to download that map. > The map is compressed in a .zip file. At www.winzip.com your can > download an evaluation (Free) copy of WinZip. This program will allow > you to extract the .tiff formatted map. On the USGS site go to > mcmcweb.er.usgs.gov/viewers/dlg_view.html to download the DRG > viewer(dlgv32 3.6). This program is a DLG (digital line graphics) viewer. In addition, it can read a variety of other formats including DRG (digital raster graphics) files which are usually in the GeoTIFF format. It can also read and render DEM (digital elevation model) files. If you are a mapping geek like me, you will find this program is fantastic. I have been using it for several months. It can do things like overlay a DRG with DEM and DLG data. DLG graphics should be of great interest to anyone who is interested in railroad maps. DLG files contain vector based data for various types of information, including a separate layer for railroads. For additional datasets in DEM and DLG (SDTS) formats that can be used with this viewer, browse the US GeoData page at: . The "Large Scale Digital Line Graphs (DLG)" can be directly overlayed onto the 7.5 minute DRG files. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Technology Service Corp. Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:08:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 Tender deck details I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you need to repaint the tender deck. The deck of T1's were not freight car color+black mixture. They were DGLE. The coal slope sheets shortly after being placed in service became bare metal covered with coal dust. Unless you are painting a locomotive as it rolled out of the paint shop to the coaling tower nothing should be Tender Deck Oxide (TDO) on no another acronym. The correct color when the deck and/or roof of a steam loco is oxide is a mixture of freight car color and black. I don't have the ratio handy but it is in the list archives. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:02:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 Tender deck details Rich and list, Thanks Rich for your informative opinion on the T1 deck color, be it correct, partly correct or wrong. I think I just found part of the answer I was looking for. If you have The Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 1 by Sweetland please got to page 84. You will see a T1 photographed in 1947. You will also see the Tender slope sheet is painted in this mixture of (TDO) Tender Deck Oxide. It is difficult to tell if the added tanks and coils are painted black or if it is just loaded with soot. To me they appear to be painted black or (DGLE). The photo was taken in 1947 so it may have recieved a recent shopping if this slope sheet appears that red. I am asuming then the deck itself is painted this way also on his particular T1. Unfortunately that is not visible in this scene. If anyone out there on this list has the No.1 gauge (1.32 scale) T1 that Marketing Corporation of America released in the early 1990's please respond to this question. Take a look at your model and let us know how THEY painted thier T1 decks AND coal space. They are known for their accuracy when building and finishing their models. Unfortunately I didn't have the $7,000 to spend on this engine. In the meantime keep your opinions coming in. We will figure this out someday. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Trains 571-971 and 970-570 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:50:13 -0500 That is some great info Drew. I have the Williamsport Division Time-Table #7 and it lists those trains that you speak of as numbers but doesn't attach a name to them. I do remember the head end equipment on them. From when I can remember which was from 1958 till they stopped they only used A-A Tuscan Red E7's or E8's. There may have been an occasional Shark pulling them but I don't ever remember one being in that area. My dad says that they did go through there occasionally. I do remember them in the Williamsport area. John I can mail you the timetable if you are intrested in it for info and you can send it back to me when you are done. I was my grandfathers. There was alot of baggae and mail cars on the head end too. Spent a lot of time at the train station just hanging around. -----Original Message----- From: Drew R. McGhee To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 2:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Trains 571-971 and 970-570 Greetings to John and the group, John, might you be confusing trains 570 and 571 with trains 574-580 and 575-581? Train 570 was the Washington Express. Train 571 was the Buffalo Day Express. These trains ran between Buffalo and Washington and did not split/combine at Erie at least from the late 40s on, as far as I can find. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 Tender deck details Hank, Thanks for your note, My thinking exactly. This is actually about the 5th T1 I have done and the second I will be weathering. When new looking those tender colors really contrast each other. But with weathering done, like you mentioned, tones the colors down quite a bit. Once this and other models that I am working on are done, I will place on a web page for all to see. Until later posts, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis Schaller" Subject: Re: [PRR] WANTED: Harrisburg, Pa. Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:18:09 -0500 Jerry, Keep me posted on what you get, I'd pay for photo copies, since I'm going to be doing the same in N-scale. I'll look through my Rails Northeast and see what I can find, I do know they have a great article with layouts of Enola yard if your interested. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 10:15 AM Subject: [PRR] WANTED: Harrisburg, Pa. >This will be a repeat request for many on the list... > >To assist me with my 1954 HO Scale modeling of Harrisburg, Pa., I am >seeking short-term loans of ORIGINAL blueprints, photos, and other >documents related to the following: > >Harrisburg Passenger Station -- (I have a "to scale" 1964 track >blueprint. I also have the recent issue of The Keystone which featured >the station.) > >McClay Street/Reilly Street Locomotive Terminal -- (I have seen a poor >photocopy of a Railway Age article from the late 1930's/early 1940's; >seeking original. "To scale" blueprint really desired. Photos of all >outbuildings are scarce. I do have the Pennsy Journal issue featuring the >diesel facility, and the Rails Northeast issue on the steam facility.) > >REA/Freight House area -- just south of station. Was this all REA, or was >only one shed (closest to the station) REA and the large building along >Second Street non-REA? Would like photos of entire area, including >Harrisburg Gas Company, which sat between the REA and the main line. >There is a "History of the REA" book which includes 7 photos of >Harrisburg. I bid (but lost) one of these on eBay. Anyone have a copy? > >Coach Yard -- was this between the passenger mains and the freight mains >across from the Harrisburg Gas Company/REA area (between Mulberry Street >bridge and the Reading RR bridge), or further south, below Paxton Street >where Amtrak continues to have a few spurs (by Pennsy Supply Co.)? > >Need originals for hi-res scanning. Will return promptly. Thanks. > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:55:09 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: [PRR] Steam Sounds Greetings to the group, At a recent train show I found some old recordings of Pennsy steam. I plan to post them on the website, but want to make sure they are downloadable and playable. If any of you SPF's would care to be experiment subjects, the file is in "MP3" format at the following location: http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/k4s_5367.mp3 You will need an MP3 player, such as Winamp, available as shareware at http://www.winamp.com/download/index.html The recording is of K4s #5367 pulling a commuter train from Sea Girt to Spring Lake, NJ in 1955. I just love to turn the volume up and close my eyes! If anyone is successful in dl'ing and playing this file, let me know. There are more. (Like a T1 rounding Horseshoe Curve!) I have been unable to unearth any copywrite information on these recordings from the Library of Congress, but if anyone knows of any reason why they shouldn't be posted, please let me know as well. -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:28:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] WANTED: Harrisburg, Pa. Jerry, there's a sketch of the Harrisburg REA Terminal in _Model Railroading's Guide to Railway Express Agency_ by Vic Roseman. In a message dated 3/9/99 9:14:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << REA/Freight House area -- just south of station. Was this all REA, or was only one shed (closest to the station) REA and the large building along Second Street non-REA? Would like photos of entire area, including Harrisburg Gas Company, which sat between the REA and the main line. There is a "History of the REA" book which includes 7 photos of Harrisburg. I bid (but lost) one of these on eBay. Anyone have a copy? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:20:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 John, I've been watching for replies to your question and held back because i thought your referernce was to the day trains. It seems Drew has clarified things for me, and as regards the night trains, #'s 574-580 and 575-581, and perhaps I can add a few notes? As Drew points out, the Erie and Buffalo trains were combined from emporium south in 1954, so perhaps the April, 1954 Official Guide will help. (This was probably the last month that showed the trains running separately). Anyway, as of 1954, consist was: 8section-lounge Buffalo-Philley 10 roomette-5db Buffalo-Philley 18 roomette Buffalo-Washington 8section-5db Buffalo-Washington 10section-3db Erie-Philley 10section-3db Erie-washington 8section-5db Erie-New York 10section-3db Williamsport-New York 12section-1dr Canandaiga-Washington dining car Harrisburg-Washington cafe coach Erie-Philley coach erie-Philley coach Buffalo-Washington coach Buffalo-Washington Headend cars: can't offer specifics here, but tapes I've seen still show four baggage cars, mixed B60 and B70 on the Buffalo section as of 1962, as well a B60 and RPO-Exp on the Erie section. It appears that as of 1954 the combined train would have run in the neighborhood of 16-18 cars on a weekday. If you'd like I can check other years in the mid-1950's, because car destinations seemed always to be shifting. And I think the number of sleeping cars dropped fairly quickly (the 1957 Guide shows a total of 4 sleepers including the lounge, and the cafe coach had shifted to Erie-Washington routing). By the way, somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to recall seeing a photo of a passenger shark up there, but maybe that's only wishful thinking. Hope this helps some, Barry Peltier St. Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 23:00:42 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Steam Sounds I must say... 3 minutes and 16 seconds of absolute beautiful sound...it works just fine with WinAmp...downloaded it and just played it. Thanx a million. Another SPF Chris Brandt wrote: > > Greetings to the group, > At a recent train show I found some old recordings of Pennsy steam. I > plan to post them on the website, but want to make sure they are > downloadable and playable. If any of you SPF's would care to be > experiment subjects, the file is in "MP3" format at the following > location: > > http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/k4s_5367.mp3 > > You will need an MP3 player, such as Winamp, available as shareware at > > http://www.winamp.com/download/index.html > > The recording is of K4s #5367 pulling a commuter train from Sea Girt to > Spring Lake, NJ in 1955. I just love to turn the volume up and close my > eyes! > > If anyone is successful in dl'ing and playing this file, let me know. > There are more. (Like a T1 rounding Horseshoe Curve!) > I have been unable to unearth any copywrite information on these > recordings from the Library of Congress, but if anyone knows of any > reason why they shouldn't be posted, please let me know as well. > -- > Chris Brandt > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me listen to K4s." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too mcrim1361@worldnet.att.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:05:23 -0500 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] Is this thing working? Is anybody out there? Haven't received anything for over 24 hrs. Have I been unsubscribed or is my isp on the blink? Elliot ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 23:00:42 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Steam Sounds I must say... 3 minutes and 16 seconds of absolute beautiful sound...it works just fine with WinAmp...downloaded it and just played it. Thanx a million. Another SPF Chris Brandt wrote: > > Greetings to the group, > At a recent train show I found some old recordings of Pennsy steam. I > plan to post them on the website, but want to make sure they are > downloadable and playable. If any of you SPF's would care to be > experiment subjects, the file is in "MP3" format at the following > location: > > http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/k4s_5367.mp3 > > You will need an MP3 player, such as Winamp, available as shareware at > > http://www.winamp.com/download/index.html > > The recording is of K4s #5367 pulling a commuter train from Sea Girt to > Spring Lake, NJ in 1955. I just love to turn the volume up and close my > eyes! > > If anyone is successful in dl'ing and playing this file, let me know. > There are more. (Like a T1 rounding Horseshoe Curve!) > I have been unable to unearth any copywrite information on these > recordings from the Library of Congress, but if anyone knows of any > reason why they shouldn't be posted, please let me know as well. > -- > Chris Brandt > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me listen to K4s." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too mcrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:47:53 EST Subject: [PRR] Freight Car Roster I thought the group may be interested in some data I distilled from the freight car rosters published on Rob Schoenberg's PRR page (this from the October 1953 roster, since that's the closest to my 1954-55 modeling era): Total freight cars in interchange service: 189,093 of which 2835 (1.5%) are flat cars, 43,375 (22.9%) gondolas, 75,622 (40.0%) hopper cars, 1328 (0.7%) stock cars, and 65,933 (34.9%) box cars. I thought the breakdown by class was rather interesting (note all subclasses are lumped together): Just two classes - H21 hoppers at 19.7% and X29 boxcars at 15.2% (of the total fleet) make up almost 1/3 of all the cars on the Pennsy. Add in class GLA (13.5%) and the top 3 classes are almost half (48.4%) of all the cars on the railroad! The top 7 (include G31 - 6.4%, X31 - 5.5%, X43 - 3.4%, and G22 - 3.2%) are 2/3 of all the cars, and rounding out the top ten (GLC - 3.0%, and G27 and X26 each at 2.4%) gives 3/4 of all the cars on the roster. Fortunately for us HO modelers, acceptable models exist for most of these classes. I plan to run about 140 freight cars on my RR, 60% "home" road, so 84 PRR cars. This means 18 Bowser H21a's, and at least a dozen Red Caboose X-29's (which means I still "need" to buy another half-dozen or so of these! Hooray!). Unfortunately (or not so, depending on how you look at it), it also means building a dozen Westerfield GLAs (unless someone please comes out with a decent plastic kit!) - I've already done two of the three GLCs I need ... Regards, Mike Hagan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 08:26:38 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[4]: [PRR] PRR Lines West? Rick: I think that you have a point about the GR&I. I too have always associated the GR&I with the line north of Fort Wayne. However, I believe I saw references to the GR&I south of Ft. Wayne to Richmond and Cincinnati on this bulletin board. I think I also saw references to this subject in Stauffer's books Pennsy Power 1 and 3. (I am at work and do not have access to these books) Ted ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: [PRR] PRR Lines West? Author: RickTipton@aol.com at Internet Date: 3/10/99 7:10 AM In a message dated 3/8/99 9:38:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, ted.andrews@woolpert.com writes: > Just FYI, Athearn's recent announcement of the USRA Light Mikado has a > direct tie to the old GR&I. The PRR had five or six of these units that > were assigned to the GR&I. There is documentation (Stauffer) that states > that these engines were commonly found in the Cincinnati area but probably > ventured north (or west as per PRR) on the GR&I. > > Ted Andrews > Ted, I'm waiting for the Cincinnati bunch to jump in about these L-2's. In the meantime, I notice that there's a tendency for fans to talk as if the GR&I started in Cincinnati. I'm positive that trains (e.g., passenger service) ran from Cincinnati via Richmond and Fort Wayne and on up the GR&I or "Fishing Line". What I'm not as sure about is whether the Richmond Branch (Cincinnati to Richmond, and sometimes part of the Cincinnati District or Columbus Division) is properly called GR&I -- that doesn't feel right. I'll leave it an open question as to whether the Fort Wayne Branch (Richmond to ADAMS at Fort Wayne) was properly part of the GR&I. But I'll bet Tom Vondruska can look it up for us in his Centennial History. My story of how Penn Central planned to kill all the north-south routes in Ohio and Indiana will have to wait for another time, but is relevant to this thread. Remind me about it after tax time. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:08:49 EST Subject: Re: Re[2]: [PRR] PRR Lines West? In a message dated 3/8/99 9:38:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, ted.andrews@woolpert.com writes: > Just FYI, Athearn's recent announcement of the USRA Light Mikado has a > direct tie to the old GR&I. The PRR had five or six of these units that > were assigned to the GR&I. There is documentation (Stauffer) that states > that these engines were commonly found in the Cincinnati area but probably > ventured north (or west as per PRR) on the GR&I. > > Ted Andrews > Ted, I'm waiting for the Cincinnati bunch to jump in about these L-2's. In the meantime, I notice that there's a tendency for fans to talk as if the GR&I started in Cincinnati. I'm positive that trains (e.g., passenger service) ran from Cincinnati via Richmond and Fort Wayne and on up the GR&I or "Fishing Line". What I'm not as sure about is whether the Richmond Branch (Cincinnati to Richmond, and sometimes part of the Cincinnati District or Columbus Division) is properly called GR&I -- that doesn't feel right. I'll leave it an open question as to whether the Fort Wayne Branch (Richmond to ADAMS at Fort Wayne) was properly part of the GR&I. But I'll bet Tom Vondruska can look it up for us in his Centennial History. My story of how Penn Central planned to kill all the north-south routes in Ohio and Indiana will have to wait for another time, but is relevant to this thread. Remind me about it after tax time. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:36:03 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Sounds The T1 rounding Horseshoe Curve sounds suspiciously like the leadoff track of the 2 CD set (or 4 tape set) sold by the PRRT&HS. I don't have the items here, but I suspect they are copyrighted. You might check with Chuck Blardone -- blardone@redrose.net -- to be sure. In message <36E5DF0D.AC28D56F@eclipse.net> Chris Brandt writes: > Greetings to the group, > At a recent train show I found some old recordings of Pennsy steam. I > plan to post them on the website, but want to make sure they are > downloadable and playable. If any of you SPF's would care to be > experiment subjects, the file is in "MP3" format at the following > location: > > http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/k4s_5367.mp3 > > You will need an MP3 player, such as Winamp, available as shareware at > > http://www.winamp.com/download/index.html > > The recording is of K4s #5367 pulling a commuter train from Sea Girt to > Spring Lake, NJ in 1955. I just love to turn the volume up and close my > eyes! > > If anyone is successful in dl'ing and playing this file, let me know. > There are more. (Like a T1 rounding Horseshoe Curve!) > I have been unable to unearth any copywrite information on these > recordings from the Library of Congress, but if anyone knows of any > reason why they shouldn't be posted, please let me know as well. > -- > Chris Brandt > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:24:06 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] GLAs (was: Freight Car Roster) Ljgurke@aol.com wrote(in part): . . . > Add in class GLA (13.5%) and the top 3 classes are almost half (48.4%) of all the cars on the > railroad! . . . > > Fortunately for us HO modelers, acceptable models exist for most of these > classes. . . . Unfortunately (or not so, depending on how you look at it), it also means building a dozen Westerfield GLAs (unless someone please comes out with a decent plastic kit!) ========== Has anyone experimented with kitbashing a Bowser H21 down to a GLA? How accurate would the result be? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:11:07 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Sounds Jerry wrote: > Won't get to it immediately, but I may be able to convert them to > QuickTime format, which would make them cross-platform. Will let you know. There is also an MP3 player called "Macamp", available at http://www.macamp.com/download.shtml -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:58:20 -0500 From: John Griffin Subject: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 - Thanks To all who have responded (Rich, Drew, Wayne, et. al.) Many thanks for the information provided. Rich, in regard to the train numbers; according to my 1943 Form 16 TT, 970 left Erie at 06:00am and arrived at Emporium at 11:30am. 570 Left Buffalo at 8:45am and arrived at Emporium at 12:04pm. The TT shows both leaving Emporium at 12:12 with no other entries farther south for 970. Hence I believe 970 was consolidated with 570 at Emporium. The same timetable shows 571-971 arriving at Emporium at 04:43pm and both 971 and 571 leaving at 04:55pm. 971 arrives in Erie at 10:45pm, 571 arrives in Buffalo at 08:25pm. Again, this leads me to believe that 971-571 "split" at Emporium. 580 and 581 were, according to my Form 16, Erie Trains and 574 and 575 were Buffalo Trains. However, each has different departure times from Emporium and Renovo. Therefore I suspect these Trains were separate entities all the way. My suspicion is, with the exception of through cars added to 570, 970 was "turned" to become 971 (sound reasonable?). When 571 came through Emporium, Erie cars were added to 971. I'm very interested in the "make-up" of these trains, so I can better model this activity. I should add that although I am referring to a 1943 TT, the period I intend to model is around 1954. If anyone has Form 16 from this time period they could share information from, please let me know. I'm beginning to think that the schedules where much different between 1943 and 1954. If I've really put my foot in it, please let me know. And many thanks again to those who have taken the time to respond. - John - John Griffin Senior IT Specialist Computer Support Services CAE Electronics Ltd pho 514.341.2000 x3332 fax 514.340.5583 net griffin@cae.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:18:22 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] GR&I and its cousins RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > I notice that there's a tendency for fans to talk as if the GR&I > started in Cincinnati. I'm positive that trains (e.g., passenger service) ran from Cincinnati via Richmond and Fort Wayne and on up the GR&I or "Fishing Line". What I'm not as sure about is whether the Richmond Branch (Cincinnati to Richmond, and sometimes part of the Cincinnati District or Columbus Division) is properly called GR&I -- that doesn't feel right. > I'll leave it an open question as to whether the Fort Wayne Branch (Richmond to ADAMS at Fort Wayne) was properly part of the GR&I. Greetings to Rick and the List: The GR&I proper ran north of Fort Wayne, Ind., only, all the way to Mackinaw City, Mich. Several folks have posted messages saying that they had some kind of impression that GR&I ran south of there, even to Cincinnati. I've had this impression, too, and -- while it's not strictly true -- there seems to be a very good reason for it. The Cincinnati, Richmond & Fort Wayne RR Co., a successor to the Cincinnati & Fort Wayne RR Co., was opened between Richmond, Ind., and Adams, Ind. (85.76 miles) in 1870-71. It was operated by various incarnations of the GR&I (there were four GR&I Railroads and one GR&I Railway) for most of its life, from 1871 to Jan. 1, 1921, when it was operated by PRR proper (stick with me, this isn't simple) until June 9, 1927, when it was sold to the Panhandle (PCC&StL) -- which of course meant that it was still controlled by and operated by the PRR. Another PRR corporate shell-game maneuver for some probably-now-forgotten purpose. The Cincinnati & Richmond RR Co., 65.96 miles between Richmond, Ind., and Rendcomb Jct. (Cincinnati), mileage not including a short distance of trackage rights on B&O/Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton in Hamilton, Ohio, was completed by three predecessors between 1852 and 1888. It was operated by the Panhandle, not by GR&I, and merged into the Panhandle in September 1890. However, much of GR&I and successor marketing, even up to the early 1960s and the last days of the summer-only Northern Arrow passenger train, focused on Cincinnati as a southern anchor. This illustrates the integrated operation/sales aspects of various members of the PRR family, which were, as we so often see, kept separate for internal-accounting, securities-laws, and probably, tax, purposes. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 119:105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:30:42 -0600 From: George Pierson Subject: [PRR] Altoona Machine shops photos... Hi, all, Another question, also from ALONG THE MAIN LINE. The views of the interior of the Altoona Machine shops show vintage locomotives (diamond stacks, short smokeboxes, fluted domes, link-and-pin couplers) being constructed. Alexander dates these photos as 1870's. But prominent are the overhead traveling cranes, two of which are shown ready to lift a whole locomotive. Were these cranes electriclaly powered? Were there electric motors in the 1870's powerful and compact enough to drive overhead traveling cranes? Talking his over with a couple of friends made us wonder about these matters. And, if the cranes weren't electrically powered, how were they powered? Your thoughts... -- George Pierson Dept. of Philosophy (george.pierson@trnty.edu) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:26:09 -0600 From: George Pierson Subject: [PRR] PRR 19th century signals Hi, all, A signaling question. I just purchased my own copy of ALONG THE MAIN LINE and have been enjoying the 19th century views. Many show towers which control fairly primitive semaphores and the controls appear to be a direct physical connection via steel wire. I know that in this century most interlocking plants had model boards and bells which indicated when a train had entered the boundaries of that plant. This allowed the towerman to know when to change the turnouts/signals etc. But what about the 19th century wire-driven towers? How did they know when a train was entering their plant, esp. in poor weather? How did they know if the semaphore arm was in the correct position? I guess I'm asking if they had a model board or just looked out the windows/listened to the telegraph sounder. In other words, what governed their actions before there were electrical interlocking circuits? -- George Pierson Dept. of Philosophy (george.pierson@trnty.edu) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:20:27 -0600 From: George Pierson Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 Tender deck details Hi, all, > I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you need to repaint the tender deck. > The deck of T1's were not freight car color+black mixture. They were DGLE. > The coal slope sheets shortly after being placed in service became bare metal > covered with coal dust. Unless you are painting a locomotive as it rolled out > of the paint shop to the coaling tower nothing should be Tender Deck Oxide > (TDO) on no another acronym. Never say never RE the use of oxide on cab roof, tender decks, etc. As one of the photos in Ball's color book shows, the INSIDE of the twin stacks of a T1 appear to be oxide red. Likewise, I recall seeing a photo (I think in the first Morning Sun PRR steam in color book) of a T1. The photographer was standing to the rear on the fireman's side. The color photo shows the back of the slope sheet on the tender and it's oxide red. I know that older color slides are not always good guages of colors but check out these images and see what you think. Given the wide variation in roof/deck painting, I guess I find it conceivable that a T1 got the red treament. Heck, they were in the shops often enough! -- George Pierson Dept. of Philosophy (george.pierson@trnty.edu) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:21:31 EST Subject: [PRR] L2s, GR&I etc. In a message dated 3/10/99 10:05:06 AM Central Standard Time, dan@cwix.com writes: << The GR&I proper ran north of Fort Wayne, Ind., only, all the way to Mackinaw City, Mich. >> Repeating my earlier post, information in the Keystone indicates the L2S were not regularly assigned to this northern line; the N2s was. Other information indicates the L2s was assigned to the Cincinnatti area, though. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:46:06 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Buffalo Line Was Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 Here is a question for the group in reference to the Buffalo Line In say 1950 How many freight customers were on the line between Buffalo and Olean? How many trains travelled this route on a daily basis and does anyone know what Station the PRR used in Buffalo BEFORE Buffalo Central Terminal was opened in 1929. Did the PRR ever have their OWN Buffalo station??? Thanks in Advance! William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Satellite View -- Wow!!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 13:40:16 -0500 From: Jerry Many months (years) ago, I was browsing the TerraServer of the evil empire (Microsoft) and was frustrated that every entry I tried for Harrisburg, Pa., came up with a port city somewhere that I did not recognize. It certainly wasn't the city I have lived in for 36 years! Anyway, I just returned and was delighted to find that they have ressurected Harrisburg. You can follow the main line from below Paxton Street, up through the passenger station, through the loco facility, and further north. The views were made in 1993. Most of the trackage at the retired loco facility are already pulled, but the roadbeds are visible. Two-thirds of the roundhouse is gone. Evident is the three-track ash out near the roundhouse. What a find for me! The URL is: http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetPageByXY.asp?XId=9405&YId=3716&SrcI d=1&ImgDate=04/08/1993&ImgSize=1&DSize=2 (Be sure to get it all on one line for pasting into your browser!) If anyone is interested, I have used PhotoShop to create one long image that covers Paxton Street through Maclay Street -- that's south of the passenger station to north of the loco facility. At 72 dpi, in JPG/JPEG format, the file is 1.1MB in size. I will e-mail it direct to anyone who requests it. Wow!!! Also available is Rockville Bridge, at: http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetPageByXY.asp?XId=9405&YId=3722&SrcI d=1&ImgDate=04/08/1993&ImgSize=1&DSize=2 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 14:19:45 -0500 From: Jerry Probably should have responded sooner, but there's quite a bit of info on "Keystone Crossings" about this train, in my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" documents. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ Anyway, these pages show the consists -- sans head-end cars -- as they exist when passing through Harrisburg in September 1954. The web version better illustrates the switching moves made at Harrisburg. Here are the details of 574/575: 5:55am.....574 arr from Williamsport and points north Dominion Express / Southern Express Lounge Car.....Buffalo to Washington (8 section, buffet) Sleeping Car.....Buffalo to Washington (PS105) Sleeping Car.....Erie to Washington (10 sections, 3 double bedrooms) Sleeping Car.....Canandaigua to Washington (10 sections, drawing room) Coaches.....Buffalo to Washington (reclining seats) Sleeping Car.....Buffalo to New York (PS105) Harrisburg: Move to 20. Sleeping Car.....Buffalo to New York (8 sections, 2 compartments, drawing room) Harrisburg: Move to 20. Sleeping Car.....Erie to New York (8 sections, 5 double bedrooms) (From No. 580 at Emporium). Harrisburg: Move to 20. Sleeping Car.....Erie to New York (8 sections, 2 compartments, drawing room) (From No. 580 at Emporium). Harrisburg: Move to 20. Sleeping Car.....Williamsport to New York (10 sections, 3 double bedrooms) Harrisburg: Move to 20. Cafe Car.....Erie to Harrisburg (From No. 580 at Emporium). Harrisburg: Move to Coach Yard. Coaches.....Erie to Harrisburg (From No. 580 at Emporium). Harrisburg: Move to Coach Yard. Dining Car.....Harrisburg to Washington Harrisburg: Move from Coach Yard. 5:55am.....574 dep to Washington 10:05pm.....575 arr from Washington Dominion Express / Northern Express Lounge Car.....Washington to Buffalo (8 sections, buffet) Sleeping Car.....Washington to Buffalo (PS105) Sleeping Car.....Washington to Canandaigua (PS121) Sleeping Car.....Washington to Erie (10 sections, 3 double bedrooms) (To No. 581 at Emporium). Cafe Coach.....Washington to Erie (To No. 581 at Emporium). Coaches.....Washington to Buffalo (reclining seats) Sleeping Car.....Washington to Chicago (8 sections, 5 double bedrooms) Harrisburg: Move to 1. Sleeping Car.....New York to Erie (8 sections, 5 double bedrooms) Harrisburg: Move from 1. Sleeping Car.....New York to Erie (8 sections, 2 compartments, drawing room) Harrisburg: Move from 1. Sleeping Car.....New York to Williamsport (10 sections, 3 double bedrooms) Harrisburg: Move from 1. Sleeping Car.....Washington to St. Louis-Houston (PS106) (To Mo. Pac. No. 21). Harrisburg: Move to 3. Sleeping Car.....Washington to Cleveland (PS105) Harrisburg: Move to 39. Sleeping Car.....Washington to Cleveland (8 sections, 2 compartments, drawing room) Harrisburg: Move to 39. Sleeping Car.....Washington to Hudson (PS105) (En route to Cleveland in No. 39). Harrisburg: Move to 39. Sleeping Car.....Washington to Hudson (8 sections, 2 compartments, drawing room) (En route to Cleveland in No. 39). Harrisburg: Move to 39. Sleeping Car.....Washington to Chicago (8 sections, 5 double bedrooms) Harrisburg: Move to 71. Sleeping Car.....Philadelphia to Buffalo (PS105) (From No. 615 at Harrisburg). Harrisburg: Move from 615. Sleeping Car.....Philadelphia to Buffalo (8 sections, 2 compartments, drawing room) (From No. 615 at Harrisburg). Harrisburg: Move from 615. Coaches.....Philadelphia to Erie (reclining seats) (From No. 615 at Harrisburg to No. 581 at Emporium). Harrisburg: Move from 615. 10:50pm.....575 dep to Williamsport and points north and west ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 19th century signals Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:51:10 -0500 (EST) > A signaling question. I just purchased my own copy of ALONG THE MAIN > LINE and have been enjoying the 19th century views. Many show towers > which control fairly primitive semaphores and the controls appear to be > a direct physical connection via steel wire. I know that in this > century most interlocking plants had model boards and bells which > indicated when a train had entered the boundaries of that plant. This > allowed the towerman to know when to change the turnouts/signals etc. > But what about the 19th century wire-driven towers? How did they know > when a train was entering their plant, esp. in poor weather? How did > they know if the semaphore arm was in the correct position? I guess I'm > asking if they had a model board or just looked out the windows/listened > to the telegraph sounder. In other words, what governed their actions > before there were electrical interlocking circuits? George, without answering all of your questions specifically, remember that mechanical plants have one important limitation: human strength [to pull the lever] relative to the friction in the mechanics. BTW - not steel wire, but _pipe_. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:30:54 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: GR&I and its cousins In a message dated 3/10/99 10:16:00 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, dan@cwix.com writes: << I've had this impression, too, and -- while it's not strictly true -- there seems to be a very good reason for it. >> Hmmm, just checked "Cincinnati Division in 1942, Dec. 1980 Keystone and see that despite my addled memory the entire Fort Wayne branch from Newman to Adams was, indeed, operationally part of the Cincinnati Division. However, colloquial use is "The GR&I," probably the result of those advertising campaigns. Dan, I once did a similar post on this line several years ago describing this line as part of the PANHANDLE but was corrected by those living along the line that this was definitelky the GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA. What to do? Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:58:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 In a message dated 3/9/99 20:42:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Headend cars: can't offer specifics here, but tapes I've seen still show four baggage cars, mixed B60 and B70 on the Buffalo section as of 1962, as well a B60 and RPO-Exp on the Erie section. It appears that as of 1954 the combined train would have run in the neighborhood of 16-18 cars on a weekday. If you'd like I can check other years in the mid-1950's, because car destinations seemed always to be shifting. And I think the number of sleeping cars dropped fairly quickly (the 1957 Guide shows a total of 4 sleepers including the lounge, and the cafe coach had shifted to Erie-Washington routing). By the way, somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to recall seeing a photo of a passenger shark up there, but maybe that's only wishful thinking. Hope this helps some, >> In PDY Vol. 5 there is photo of this train with one what appears to be cafe- lounge car and a half dozen head end cars. The caption states that the heavy volume of mail kept this train alive. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Harrisburg Satellite View -- Wow!!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:25:15 -0800 Careful, Jerry johncoop@microsoft.com > ---------- > From: Jerry[SMTP:jerry@dsop.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 10:40 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Satellite View -- Wow!!! > > Many months (years) ago, I was browsing the TerraServer of the evil > empire (Microsoft) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Machine shops photos... Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:47:45 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 10 Mar, George Pierson wrote: > [ ... ] But prominent are > the overhead traveling cranes, two of which are shown ready to lift a > whole locomotive. Were these cranes electriclaly powered? > [ ... ] And, if the cranes weren't > electrically powered, how were they powered? Having been through several old mills of that vintage in this area (Lowell, Lawrence, etc, here in MA), I might hazard a guess that they were steam-powered, via shafts and belts and pulleys and whatnot. There's no requirement that the motor must be on the crane, it's just simpler and easier now that electric motors are small and powerful enough to do the job. I would bet a month's model budget that the Altoona machine shops were set up just like the mills around here, with spinning shafts just below the ceiling and belts down to the individual machine tools. Look at today's large construction cranes, with all the torque generated in one spot and transferred up through cable and pulley systems. Anybody else got any bright ideas? Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:04:53 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: GR&I and its cousins LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > I once did a similar post on this line several > years ago describing > this line as part of the PANHANDLE but was corrected by those living along the > line that this was definitelky the GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA. > What to do? > Regardless of what they may have thought, Panhandle and various predecessors, but *not* GR&I, was the owner south of Richmond. The info I posted came from the 1945 PRR Corporate, Financial and Construction history, which is the official blueblood directory to corporate ownership of every piece of any line that was directly operated or influenced by PRR (it does omit N&W, DT&I and LV). My 1917 RTL (Record of Transportation Lines), an annually issued document that is an excellent corroborating source, shows exactly the same -- GR&I proper from Mackinaw City, Mich., to Fort Wayne, Ind., then Cincinnati, Richmond & Fort Wayne Railroad (operated by GR&I) from Adamsm, Ind. (east of Fort Wayne on the PFtW&C main line) to Richmond, Ind. South of there to Cincinnati, the track is part of the Richmond Division of the Panhandle and was never corporately part of GR&I. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 119:105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Harrisburg Satellite View -- Wow!!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 16:54:04 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/10/99 4:25 PM, John Cooper (johncoop@microsoft.com) wrote: >Careful, Jerry > >johncoop@microsoft.com Condolences...err, I mean, apologies! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:46:03 EST Subject: [PRR] PENNSY BOOKS Folks, I was browsing through the Barnes & Noble book search today and noticed a book called , I think, "End of the Line: Cassatt and the Pennsylvania Railroad" for $20. Has anyone read this book, and how is it? Also, for those interested in Pennsy history, B&N's used book list has a copy of the Centennial History 1846-1946 for around $60, in good condition. There were several other Pennsy books, both used and new (with some new ones discounted as much as 30%). Check it out. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:46:27 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Athearn USRA 2-8-2 In reviewing some dealer literature, I notice that Athearn will be offering their new USRA Light 2-8-2 lettered for PRR. Has anyone heard if the PRR version will have the unique Pennsy front end treatment or just be the generic engine lettered PRR? Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:53:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GLAs (was: Freight Car Roster) In a message dated 3/10/99 10:10:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << Has anyone experimented with kitbashing a Bowser H21 down to a GLA? How accurate would the result be? >> I think you can get pretty close by cutting down a USRA twin hopper and changing the end details. I plan to do one in O scale this way. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Early Towers.... Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:11:41 -0500 ***Once again, Doktor Bej has graciously given us his guesses and speculations, and as usual, has not researched = let alone verified or confirmed = any facts. George, you probably ARE seeing the cable wires, which were a common method of tower signal operation. With a continous loop or a pair of cables, the semaphore arm field position could be confirmed in the tower. The cables had to be compensated and adjusted regularly due to stretching, temperature, etc. They were quite a bit lighter and less cumbersome than the pipeline method. If memory serves me, State Line Junction might have been built later ( circa 1900 ) and still employed the cable system, I will have to dig a bit for that confirmation. By that time, there were many alternate means for electrical operation of semaphore signals, so it is surprising that the "latest technology" was not employed. Part of our group's fascination with signaling and less than optimal installations is the part that RR Budgets played. As for operation, in Manual Block Daze, the block would be secured by telegraph long before the train was allowed to enter. The operator at the entering end later notified the next tower of the passing of the train as it actually entered the block between them. Based on train power and loading, a fair estimate could easily be made as to expected arrival time. This method of estimation was always used where dark territory ( no track circuits ) was involved. Another "Art" I had to learn to dispatch the Upper End section of the CNJ right into the 1970's, with nothing in between P'burg and W.E.Hampton, and yet certain engineers were very predictable !!!! On the PRR, Block Operators traditionally "OS"-ed or reported trains to the next tower in advance, even in modern times with automatic signal systems, so you always knew when a train was approaching long before he hit the approach circuit. PRR Eastern end towers also usually lacked approach bells, just the track circuit lamp came on silently. With skill and quiet, you could hear the relay drop and sense an approach. On all my other RR's, we did not "Block" or report the trains tower to tower, but instead all operators monitored the DS / Train Dispatchers Wire, listening for variances in the schedule and / or order of the trains. The employee timetable gave you the number and order of the expected trains and that was our "Bible". On all my other RR's, the towers also had approach bells Most days at Summit ( Former DL&W ) I worked the entire AM Rush hour without speaking to anyone from 6:30 AM until 8:45 AM, when Robert F. Collins Master photographer and my first trick dispatcher) would call out " Summit OS", meaning "now give me all of the times". In earlier manual block operation, the was constant communication between all towers and the train dispatcher for each and every move, in advance, when passing, and reporting clear, etc. (The first Train order was given in 1851 by Minot on the Erie.....) The early signaling history shows: 1872 = the closed loop track circuit was invented. 1873 = On our own P&E, a track circuit section was in service also confirming the positions of three track switches !! 1875 = electrical blocking between block stations first invented. 1882 = This system utilized on the NY&H RR. 1883 = Electro-pneumatic semaphores. 1889 = by this time, systems were being used regularly on the NYC&HR, NYNH&H and the LE&W RR. 1893 = electric semaphores. So even back into the 19th century, we find controlled manual block using electrical currents between towers. We will have a full discussion of modern PRR Tower / Train Dispatching methods at the 1999 Altoona convention Friday afternoon signal 'show'. Bill Strassner********* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Neil Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] GLAs (was: Freight Car Roster) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:08:52 -0500 Andy I have kitnbashed GLAs from Accrail USRA hoppers and the ends from Bowser H21s. I use the H21 bodies and add the BCW H25 end. Don't know if this part is still available or not. The GLA isn't Westerfield but they are very close . Neil >Has anyone experimented with kitbashing a Bowser H21 down to a GLA? How >accurate would the result be? > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] those nice PRR Steam sounds.... Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:01:25 -0500 ****These might be from Alan Botto / Semaphore Records album, and if so, would be another copyrighted item. Caution and respect for the copyright, please. Yes, they were advertised by the PRRT&HS. Alan stopped by here last month, and a new release is in the works presently with cleaner recordings. The K4 powered Long Branch train mentioned is The Broker (ewd, PRR # 710) , and I gladly provided Alan with NY&LB RR and PRR artifax for the graphics for the new album. It should be available for the Altoona Convention, and I cannot wait to hear it !!! Bill***** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] List Etiquette Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 18:48:25 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/10/99 5:11 PM, PRRSignals (prrsignals@adelphia.net) wrote: >***Once again, Doktor Bej has graciously given us his guesses and >speculations, and as usual, has not researched = let alone verified or >confirmed = any facts. The above test is, in my opinion as listmaster, a bit harsh. Your rebuttal of Mark's "opinion" is welcome, but the above paragraph was uncalled for. Please keep this a "kind and gentle" list, which it usually is. I have posted this to the list, because this is not the first time this has happened. This is a reminder to all members of the list. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:40:30 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] those nice PRR Steam sounds.... PRRSignals wrote: > > ****These might be from Alan Botto / Semaphore Records album, and if so, > would be another copyrighted item. Caution and respect for the copyright, > please. Yes, they were advertised by the PRRT&HS. > > Alan stopped by here last month, and a new release is in the works presently > with cleaner recordings. The K4 powered Long Branch train mentioned is The > Broker (ewd, PRR # 710) , and I gladly provided Alan with NY&LB RR and PRR > artifax for the graphics for the new album. > > It should be available for the Altoona Convention, and I cannot wait to hear > it !!! Bill***** Thank you for the information. I certainly respect the copyright, and will not post any of these recordings. -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] End of the Line = great !!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:45:24 -0500 ***Barry and all: "End of the Line" by Patricia Davis is a fantastic work, a must-read for PRR fans. All of our group have read and shared it and agree. Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Tilt target type crossing signals From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:41:23 EST I clearly remember the signal; that protected the crossing between the PRR(C&M) and the B&O(CL&W) in Dover Ohio. I have also seen several at other locations and occasionally in the background in photos. As I remember them they were mounted on a tall "telephone" pole. At the top there was a white board about 6 or 8 ft long with red lights at each end. The board was pivoted in at the center and could tilt from horizontal to vertical. Can any one explain the aspects of that type of signal and where I might get at least some rough dimensions to make an HO model. I hope to use a Tortoise switch machine to operate it. Other than vague memories all I have is a picture of one on page 30 of the Winter 1994 Keystone. On the same page it is called out as a "crossing target" in a track diagram. Plans or a scalable photo would be great. If I can't learn more I'll plunge in a free-lance one. Fred G. Rea NMRA PRRT&HS ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Tuttle" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:38:26 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Logansport to Effner The recent postings about the PRR and TP&W led me to recall an article from one of the Pennsy magazines that I got from that friendly switchman, Mr L.D. Blansett. Here, from the pages of the September 1952 issue are the first two paragraphs of "Logansport to Effner" Howard Harris and Frank Hahn hold different views about the PRR's Effner Branch, the 61-mile stretch of single track that runs from Logansport, Ind., through cornfields and quiet country towns to Effner and the Illinois state line, where it connects with the Toledo, Peoria and Western. Mr Harris is freight agent at the Effner station. He regards the Effner interchange as all-important on the line. "After all," he says, "'The line is called the Effner Branch, and look at our traffic figures--last year we interchanged at Effner more than 75,000 cars with the TP&W or Tip Up as we call it. That's more traffic than the rest of the Branch produced. If anyone is interested, perhaps this weekend I can get the rest of it entered. Chuck -- Chuck Tuttle 765-463-0531 West Lafayette IN catuttle@gte.net Work: catuttle@purdue.edu 765-494-0313 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:27:54 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Are there online, or in a book that I ought to have but don't, pictures or plans for a PRR ice dock? Did the Pennsy have many? Were the ones for (e.g.) FGEX reefers different than the ones for REA reefers? Or can I just build it like the one on Bob Smaus' SP in LA layout in a recent MR? Thanks for the info! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:57:18 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? Greetings to Denise and the group, There was an article, in _Rails Northeast_ I believe, concerning PRR's iceing stations. The article listed all of the iceing stations. Some of them were just for emergency use only. The article had photos of the one in Mount Union. Off the top of my head, there were iceing stations at Altoona, Renovo and Mount Union plus several others. I'll get back to the group with the RNE issue and list of iceing stations. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 11:27 PM 3/10/99 -0500, Dennis Rockwell wrote: >Are there online, or in a book that I ought to have but >don't, pictures or plans for a PRR ice dock? Did the Pennsy >have many? Were the ones for (e.g.) FGEX reefers different >than the ones for REA reefers? Or can I just build it like >the one on Bob Smaus' SP in LA layout in a recent MR? > >Thanks for the info! > >Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 08:20:54 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn USRA 2-8-2 Frank: According to Athearn's webpage, different front ends to the boilers will be made for the various road names. They also have a photo of two different engines, one with a headlight centered in the boiler and the other with the headlight mounted at the 12 o'clock postion. I think the later is the B&O. There is a good chance that they will be close to prototypical since the model builder is Samhongsa, one of the best builders of Pennsy brass engines. They are notorious in capturing the look of PRR steam (at those prices for brass they should!). ;) Ted Andrews ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] Athearn USRA 2-8-2 Author: parkvarieties@provide.net at Internet Date: 3/10/99 8:37 PM In reviewing some dealer literature, I notice that Athearn will be offering their new USRA Light 2-8-2 lettered for PRR. Has anyone heard if the PRR version will have the unique Pennsy front end treatment or just be the generic engine lettered PRR? Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Tilt target type crossing signals Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:27:27 -0500 (EST) Fred G Rea scrivit: > > I clearly remember the signal; that protected the crossing between the > PRR(C&M) and the B&O(CL&W) in Dover Ohio. I have also seen several at > other locations and occasionally in the background in photos. > > As I remember them they were mounted on a tall "telephone" pole. At the > top there was a white board about 6 or 8 ft long with red lights at each > end. The board was pivoted in at the center and could tilt from > horizontal to vertical. > > Can any one explain the aspects of that type of signal and where I might > get at least some rough dimensions to make an HO model. I hope to use a > Tortoise switch machine to operate it. Horizontal and vertical, as you say; would have to check if diagonal aspects existed as well. Use varied by location, check your employee timetable for specifics. Several of these are seen on the Canton District PRR interlocking diagrams on my web site, see for example the PRR-PRR crossing at grade at Alliance. Start on http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_pgh_crest_main.html As to live examples, there are still a few. One on the south side of Canton (B&O-W&LE) is now gone. One near Harvard Ave. on the south side of Cleveland (B&O & someone: NKP? N&SS?) is still extant. [That's, of course, if you believe my own eyesight, which some view as unreliable.] There is a reliable report of one in New Castle Pa. still present. Can't give you anything definite as to size, sorry. :-( -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 09:16:42 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/11/99 8:57 AM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: >There was an article, in _Rails Northeast_ I believe, concerning PRR's >iceing stations. The article listed all of the iceing stations. Some of >them were just for emergency use only. The article had photos of the one in >Mount Union. Off the top of my head, there were iceing stations at Altoona, >Renovo and Mount Union plus several others. I'll get back to the group >with the RNE issue and list of iceing stations. The local history book -- Newberry Township, York County, Pa. -- makes numerous mentions of various operations on the PRR's four tracks through the township. Two tracks were Northern Central; two were Atglen & Susquehanna. Anyway, until an extreme ice jam in the Susquehanna River in the early 1900s -- which wiped out everything along the shore -- the area was rich in railroad industry. Goldsboro was home to two sawmills. York Haven was home to a paper mill. Mention is made of an icing station in the stretch between Goldsboro and Cly. Cly interlocking was a full interlocking just north/west of where the NCRy headed inland at Wago Junction. It is reported that this icing station served reefers bound for York, Pa., where there were several ice cream plants at the time. The 1923 CT1000 verifies the ice cream plants in York. Not sure when the icing station was removed. Also should be mentioned that the climate here does not produce much ice in the river. Either they initially brought the ice in from further north, or technology had already developed to produce ice (don't think so). Sorry, no photos, though there is an aerial shot of Goldsboro that really makes it look like there was an interlocking there. Blowing up the photo in PhotoShop is inconclusive. Numerous turnouts "appear" to be seen, and there likely would have been the need for some interchange, given the number of railroad-related industries there. I just was high-bidder on eBay for PRR blueprints for Goldsboro, circa 1937 and installation of catenary. Will report any substantial new information. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:34:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PENNSY BOOKS In a message dated 3/10/99 7:33:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << I was browsing through the Barnes & Noble book search today and noticed a book called , I think, "End of the Line: Cassatt and the Pennsylvania Railroad" for $20. Has anyone read this book, and how is it? >> I read it and really enjoyed it. It gives a fresh perspective on business as done in the late 1800's. The book is a classic biography, not a railroad book as such, but there is a lot of PRR history in it. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:29:55 -0600 Dennis Rockwell wrote: >>> Are there online, or in a book that I ought to have but > don't, pictures or plans for a PRR ice dock? Did the Pennsy > have many? Were the ones for (e.g.) FGEX reefers different > than the ones for REA reefers? Or can I just build it like > the one on Bob Smaus' SP in LA layout in a recent MR?<<< > There was a article on PRR ice docks in the Keystone some time ago. As I remember the article had a few photographs and listed all locations. I am at work and don't have access to my "PPR library" at the moment so can't give a specific reference. Bill Laird ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Shops and Electricity Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:44:08 -0800 I can't speak directly to Altoona's situation but Renovo Shops had electric lights installed in 1883 "just one year after Thomas Edison put into operation the Pearl Street Station in New York City, the worlds first central electric power plant." The machine shop had many lathes, drill presses a boring mill and hydraulic presses or 100 and 120 tons all driven by a 60 HP steam engine with a 14 inch cylinder, a stroke of 3 feet, and 14 foot flywheel. According to accounts of the times these shops were surpassed by no others! There was also a boiler shop at that time. Locomotives were built in the shops not just repaired up until the turn of the century. I am not certain what drove the cranes but it would not be electric as early as 1870 I think, probably a diesel/ gas or steam motor. --Greg Stone Member PRRT&HS interested in any information on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] My target signal inquiry From: Fred G Rea Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:48:01 EST Thanks to all who responded. Apparently they are an endangered but not extinct species. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] H 21 vs H 25 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:01:17 -0800 Besides for both being quad hoppers, these cars were very diffferent until later years. The ends were different, in end bolster and supports. The underframe was different. The hoppers themselves were the same as the sawtoothed ones on other PRR hoppers. The side ribs were different. Even though H21 hoppers and H25 hoppers both had tapered side ribs their shapes were noticably different. Oversimplified the H25 ribs stuck out a little more. Steve Grybowski did all the research on the recently imported H21a and H22a hoppers in O scale by Pacific Ltd. I recently spent about 2 hours with him on the phone talking mostly about these hoppers. Pennsy hoppers went through many transitions and rebuilds. So if one wants to be real accurate about their modeling it seems you must be very specific to the hopper subclass and the time period. I don't remember the time period but it was much later that Steve told me that some H25s were essentially a H21 with a body modification along the lines of an H25. He has a large number of drawings cataloged by year. He has many hours of research into these hoppers. Many are requesting he write any article on them. He told me he might dictate his knowledge but someone else would have to put it into book form. He is too busy working like most of the rest of us! Ideally John Teichmoeler (sp) and he should get together. If you want to see a real nice model of a pennsy hopper try to find someone who has one of these recently imported models by Pacific Limited. They are gorgeous! --Greg Stone interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Tuttle" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:44:01 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Tilt Target Type Crossing signals There is a photo of one of these signals accompanying the Logansport to Effner article in the September 52 Pennsy. The caption reads: After gate is swung across Monon tracks at Monticello, high tilting target signals move to "proceed" position for PRR. It looks pretty much as Fred describes it, except that it is not a solid board. This one is more of a skeleton with solid square boards at the ends, with lamps hanging from each end. The track side end is longer that the one opposite the pivot. It appears to be mechanically driven by the "smash board" gate that is manually swung to block the opposing track. It's hard to tell, but there appears to be a cable from the end of the gate that a switchman is holding. Chuck Fred Rea wrote: I clearly remember the signal; that protected the crossing between the PRR(C&M) and the B&O(CL&W) in Dover Ohio. I have also seen several at other locations and occasionally in the background in photos. As I remember them they were mounted on a tall "telephone" pole. At the top there was a white board about 6 or 8 ft long with red lights at each end. The board was pivoted in at the center and could tilt from horizontal to vertical. Can any one explain the aspects of that type of signal and where I might get at least some rough dimensions to make an HO model. I hope to use a Tortoise switch machine to operate it. Other than vague memories all I have is a picture of one on page 30 of the Winter 1994 Keystone. On the same page it is called out as a "crossing target" in a track diagram. Plans or a scalable photo would be great. If I can't learn more I'll plunge in a free-lance one. Fred G. Rea NMRA PRRT&HS -- Chuck Tuttle 765-463-0531 West Lafayette IN catuttle@gte.net Work: catuttle@purdue.edu 765-494-0313 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:28:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? There were photos of the ice dock in the Pittsburgh Produce yards published in a two part article on the Produce yards. I believe it was in MRing or RMJ. The information is at home. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:13:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? The Keystone issue of June 1981 has good views of the Renovo icing plaforms. I built mine based on those photos. Dennis S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:20:51 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Drew McGhee Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:57 AM To: Dennis Rockwell; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? There was one in Canton, OH on the PFW&C. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:42:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? Somewhere in my collection of paper is an original or photocopy of the Pennsy's advertising brochure on their produce train service, which includes schedules, cutoff times and basic and emergency reicing points. Another archeological expedition! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWilson823@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:57:37 EST Subject: Re: Re[2]: [PRR] PRR Lines West? In a message dated 3/10/99 7:58:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << What I'm not as sure about is whether the Richmond Branch (Cincinnati to Richmond, and sometimes part of the Cincinnati District or Columbus Division) is properly called GR&I -- that doesn't feel right. >> The GR&I started in Richmond and went north to Mackinaw. All mile markers on the line were miles from the Richmond Station, this was noted on the track charts as late as the mid 60's. Until the mid-fifties, when it was rolled into the Fort Wayne Division, the Division Headquarters for the Grand Rapids Division were in Grand Rapids. Dorman Wilson On the GR&I line in Kalamazoo, MI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:36:50 EST Subject: [PRR] RR Items-FS I have the following items on Ebay: Southern Pacific Matchbook featuring a black waiter Ebay # 76276794 PRR Silver Tip Tray EBAY# 76280652 Long Island RR Timetable 9-17-50 Ebay # 76286455 PRR Station Postcards Kane, Pa. Ebay # 76290343 Williamsport, Pa. Ebay # 76292572 Freedom, Pa. Ebay # 76295553 Thanks for looking. E mail me any questions about these items. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:32:48 -0500 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] thanks To everyone who responded to my cry for help on my missing email, thanks. In case you're interested, my isp pleaded guilty to blowing it. The mail has since been recovered. Elliot ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:14:24 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Paper Collection I have a small collection of Pennsy paper items for sale: Daily report of carloads weighed and forwarded Original bill of lading Prepaid freight bill some with Union Line name and symbol Ledger sheet of cars from Coalport, Pa. Arrival notice Freight bills some with Pennsylvania System keystone and others from WWI stamped War Revenue Tax Many of these pieces are from Coalport, Pa. Over 50 pieces from the late 1880's-1920's. Nice group of early PRR. $15 plus $2 shipping. First E mail gets it. Thanks, Andrew Sentipal ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:17:28 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] N-scale layout for sale Hi all, I am in the process of having to consider a move and I need to sell my 4x6 N-scale layout. It's a twice around oval with two reverse loops and two small yards. All Atlas flextrack and Peco turnouts. Mostly scenicked to resemble the Appalachias, but sans trees and buildings. It does have Tomar signals that are controlled by panel switches. I can send jpegs if you like. I will also include the CMI Hogger power supply. I am in Arcata, CA but can hopefully deliver to Oregon or other parts of California. Maybe you know someone who wants a small layout? Thanks, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:10:15 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? Greetings to Dennis, Bill and the group, Bill, your memory was better than mine. The article I was thinking of was in the _Keystone_ as Bill mentioned and not RNE. According to the Summer 1992 _Keystone_, the PRR had icing facilities at Altoona (eastbound only) Buffalo, NY Buttonwood Yard (Wilkes-Barre, PA) Camden, NJ Canton, OH (eastbound only) Clayton, DE Columbus, OH Delmar, DE Elmira, NY Grand Rapids, MI Greenville, NJ Hagerstown, MD Huntington, PA Indianapolis, IN Harsimus Cove, NJ Renovo, PA The article also mentions emergency icing facilities and retop locations around the system. In addition, photos of the Huntington facility (I think I said Mount Union in my earlier post.) are provided and a system map showing all of the facilities. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 11:27 PM 3/10/99 -0500, Dennis Rockwell wrote: >Are there online, or in a book that I ought to have but >don't, pictures or plans for a PRR ice dock? Did the Pennsy >have many? Were the ones for (e.g.) FGEX reefers different >than the ones for REA reefers? Or can I just build it like >the one on Bob Smaus' SP in LA layout in a recent MR? > >Thanks for the info! > >Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:58:59 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 - Thanks Greetings to John and the group, John, thanks to you I learned about another Nothern Division train. My information only goes back to about 1950 and even some of that is sketchy. Anything before that, except on the 30s Williamsport Division, is all new to me. So I hope my lenthy response to your original question was of some use. Unfortunately, you still haven't gotten your question answered. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 09:58 AM 3/10/99 -0500, John Griffin wrote: >To all who have responded (Rich, Drew, Wayne, et. al.) > > Many thanks for the information provided. > > Rich, in regard to the train numbers; according to my 1943 Form >16 TT, 970 left Erie at 06:00am and arrived at Emporium at 11:30am. >570 Left Buffalo at 8:45am and arrived at Emporium at 12:04pm. The >TT shows both leaving Emporium at 12:12 with no other entries farther >south for 970. Hence I believe 970 was consolidated with 570 at >Emporium. > > The same timetable shows 571-971 arriving at Emporium at >04:43pm and both 971 and 571 leaving at 04:55pm. 971 arrives in Erie at >10:45pm, 571 arrives in Buffalo at 08:25pm. Again, this leads me to >believe that 971-571 "split" at Emporium. > > 580 and 581 were, according to my Form 16, Erie Trains and 574 >and 575 were Buffalo Trains. However, each has different departure >times from Emporium and Renovo. Therefore I suspect these Trains >were separate entities all the way. > > My suspicion is, with the exception of through cars added to 570, >970 was "turned" to become 971 (sound reasonable?). When 571 came >through Emporium, Erie cars were added to 971. I'm very interested in >the "make-up" of these trains, so I can better model this activity. > > I should add that although I am referring to a 1943 TT, the period >I intend to model is around 1954. If anyone has Form 16 from this time >period they could share information from, please let me know. I'm >beginning to think that the schedules where much different between >1943 and 1954. > > If I've really put my foot in it, please let me know. And many >thanks again to those who have taken the time to respond. > > - John - >John Griffin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy ice dock? Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 10:04:49 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/12/99 9:10 AM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: >Bill, your memory was better than mine. The article I was thinking of was >in the _Keystone_ as Bill mentioned and not RNE. According to the Summer >1992 _Keystone_, the PRR had icing facilities at > >Altoona (eastbound only) >Buffalo, NY >Buttonwood Yard (Wilkes-Barre, PA) >Camden, NJ >Canton, OH (eastbound only) >Clayton, DE >Columbus, OH >Delmar, DE >Elmira, NY >Grand Rapids, MI >Greenville, NJ >Hagerstown, MD >Huntington, PA >Indianapolis, IN >Harsimus Cove, NJ >Renovo, PA Again,there was an icing facility at Goldsboro/Cly on the Northern Central/A&S branches, but this would have been very early 1900's only. I will try to find more info. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg REA vs. PRR Freight Operations Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 11:39:33 -0500 From: Jerry John Keel has been the first person to verbalize that the large freight warehouse located along South Second Street in Harrisburg (below the passenger station) was the Pennsylvania Railroad Freight Station. Until now, everyone has been mum on the subject. Previously, I was unable to substantiate whether this building was PRR or part of the REA, which definitely occupied a smaller building between this building and the passenger station. This brings forth an observation: Since this larger building was on the south/west side of the tracks, freight locals from the Harrisburg yard would have to negotiate over/through the passenger mains south of the station in order to reach it. This they had to do anyway, because the Harrisburg Gas Company (between the mains and the REA) and at least two other warehouses had rail access in this area. One building was at some point occupied by a company called Gable's. Now, as for 1954 modeling, I can use the Red Caboose X-29's in "REA" for REA service. Would it follow that, for a publicly accessible freight station, that the PRR Freight Station would see a lot of X-29 "Merchandise Service" action since it was, by nature, LCL (less than car load) freight? I would assume that not all rr cars at the freight station would bear the "MS" theme, but is it safe to assume that most might? Still seeking photos of all of the above. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:07:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Class GS gons (Bowser) in MW service In a message dated 1/2/99 10:37:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: > As far as I can determine from a quick scan of the list there are no class GS > gons on the incomplete roster. If there is any information out there on class > GS gons in MW service please advise. Thanx. Al, I told John LaRue about your search. Besides the two MoW GS's you've unearthed since the above message, he came up with a photo of GS 494066 from his negative collection. It's in CK, but he doesn't know whether this is gray or yellow. Car built 1-09, repack date appears to be in 1952. We can't guarantee there aren't other GS cars in John's extensive catalog of MoW pictures. BTW, are you working with the Lines West MoW series above 990,000, or just the Lines East car numbers in 480000-499999? Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] what would you like you computer to do for you(RR related) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:20:55 -0500 Hey List: Is there something you wish you had a computer program to do for you?????? I have been programming for 30 years now...and need something fun to do.. So throw out some things you wish you had, to help with our hobby. (main thing in life).. Windows 95/98/NT - or small handheld equipment(palm or CE power device)... I'm looking to something that would be free , for members of Jerry's list... tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Thanks, George....PRR Cable Wire signal controls..... Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:19:33 -0500 ****Thanks to George Pierson's mention of the cable wire signal controls, our signal group had a neat new discussion topic to research further, and Signal Group Editor Bob Colquitt came up with a nice written description of " Wire compensator ( devices ) as used on the PRR ", which kind of confirms their existence and PRR utilization..... One reference book that Big Bob located is: "The Block System of Signaling on American Railroads" by B. B. Adams, 1901, pages 185-188. Future CLEAR BLOCK Signal Group newsletters will contain more information about these neat arrangements !!! Please write to me if interested in joining !!! Bill****** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:44:43 EST Subject: [PRR] G28 Gondolas A while ago we had a short thread about the G28 gondola class. I asked if there were any published pictures of the G28, but didn't get any responses. Well, I found one. The Keystone, Autumn 1996, has a picture of a G28 in the Article about the Altoona shops. It's on page 55. Anyone know of any other pictures of the G28? John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:45:35 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR lines west fans fest full announcement ATTENTION SERIOUS PENNSY FANS! The Pennsylvania Railroad LINES WEST FANS' FEST Has MOVED!!! To Xenia's Ohio National Guard Armory 39 Weaver St. at North Detroit St. (US 68) (on the north side of Shawnee Park, 4 blocks north of the Greene County Courthouse and Main Street (US 35 Business loop) April 10, 1999 10 am-4pm General Admission $10 Advance "SPF" registration $30* Payment for 'Advance SPF registration' must be received by April 1, 1999. Package premiums nuclide Pennsylvania Lines hat and patch, a copy of "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1846-1996: its place in history" a collection of essays and research guide edited by Dan Cupper, and a reception at 5 p. m in "Xenia Station,' a full scale replica of the Pennsylvania Railroad's XG "Xenia" tower opened in 1998 . Railfans, model railroaders and rail history buffs are invited to celebrate the other Pennsylvania Railroad, its 4,500 miles of tracks west of Pittsburgh & Erie. Xenia was one of Ohio's first rail centers, the hub of the Little Miami RR, the oldest rail line to be part of the Pennsylvania Lines. During the PRR Lines West Fans Fest you have a chance to: See the largest display yet of finely-detailed PRR rolling stock and locomotive models by the Cincinnati Division Pennsylvania RR Modelers' craftsmen Discover the PRR in Michigan's north woods copper country with the Grand Rapids & Indiana Railroad Historical Society Find how the Greene Co. Historical Society's accurately modeled Xenia in it HO scale Operating Diorama of Xenia's Railroads from 1920s to 1950s Learn about other areas of Pennsy's Lines West from presentations about the Panhandle Division, the Erie & Pittsburgh Division & "Faded Glory: Panhandle railfanning in Dayton" See Miracle Castings' HOT new HO cast resin 1st generation cab unit shells Baldwin's BP20 "Passenger Shark" A&B units and the first run of its Fairbanks Morse's Erie-Built A units. Meet noted PRR author Dan Cupper, a Withers Publishing editor, who will be selling his own works and Wither's latest installment in its PRR motive power series on Baldwin cab & transfer diesels. Dave's Books, Delaware, Ohio, anticipates having in stock the first installment of Morning Sun Books' all-new PRR series "Pennsylvania, Standard Railroad of the World; Vol. 1," now slated for an April 1 release. Browse through LinesWest Vintage Magazines' more than 150 issues of model railroad magazines -- Mainline Modeler, Model Railroading, Railmodel Journal, Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsman -- each with information about the PRR. A 12-issue lot of Rails Northeast will be sold via silent auction. Take a ride on the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Ry. (once the PRR's Lebanon and Middletown branches) Sunday, April 11, 1999 from 3 p.m. 'til we get back! Departing from the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. depot, in Mason, Ohio for the regular fare** of $10 Special Pennsy Lines West Fans' Fest lodging rates are now available! $42.50 plus $5.10 tax per night, single or double occupancy for reservations placed on or before March 15, 1999, The Allendale Inn, 38 S. Allison Ave. Xenia, Oho, 937-376-8124 Next to the Perkins' Pancake House at Allison Avenue & West Main Street (US 35 Business Loop) 1 mile west of PRR Lines West Fans Fest More than a dozen restaurants are located within three blocks of the hotel `For more information contact : Tom Vondruska, Pennsylvania Lines West Fans Fest, 326 W. Center College St., Yellow Springs, Ohio 45387-1406 937-767-1903, voice, data & fax e-mail: lineswest@aol.com ** The fare for CL&N excursion on the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. fare is separate from other PRR Lines West Fans Fest admission prices The Pennsylvania Lines West Fans Fest is a not-for profit educational and recreational activity produced by VonCom/LinesWest, Yellow Springs, Ohio.. VonCom/LinesWest is solely responsible for the event. and is not affiliated with nor an agent of, the Greene County Historical Society. nor of the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. Any proceeds will be used for preservation of the PRR Lines West heritage as decided by a voice vote at the end of the activities on April 10,, 1999. ATTENTION SERIOUS PENNSY FANS! The Pennsylvania Railroad LINES WEST FANS' FEST Has MOVED!!! To Xenia's Ohio National Guard Armory 39 Weaver St. at North Detroit St. (US 68) (on the north side of Shawnee Park, 4 blocks north of the Greene County Courthouse and Main Street (US 35 Business loop) April 10, 1999 10 am-4pm General Admission $10 Advance "SPF" registration $30* Payment for 'Advance SPF registration' must be received by April 1, 1999. Package premiums nuclide Pennsylvania Lines hat and patch, a copy of "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1846-1996: its place in history" a collection of essays and research guide edited by Dan Cupper, and a reception at 5 p. m in "Xenia Station,' a full scale replica of the Pennsylvania Railroad's XG "Xenia" tower opened in 1998 . Railfans, model railroaders and rail history buffs are invited to celebrate the other Pennsylvania Railroad, its 4,500 miles of tracks west of Pittsburgh & Erie. Xenia was one of Ohio's first rail centers, the hub of the Little Miami RR, the oldest rail line to be part of the Pennsylvania Lines. During the PRR Lines West Fans Fest you have a chance to: See the largest display yet of finely-detailed PRR rolling stock and locomotive models by the Cincinnati Division Pennsylvania RR Modelers' craftsmen Discover the PRR in Michigan's north woods copper country with the Grand Rapids & Indiana Railroad Historical Society Find how the Greene Co. Historical Society's accurately modeled Xenia in it HO scale Operating Diorama of Xenia's Railroads from 1920s to 1950s Learn about other areas of Pennsy's Lines West from presentations about the Panhandle Division, the Erie & Pittsburgh Division & "Faded Glory: Panhandle railfanning in Dayton" See Miracle Castings' HOT new HO cast resin 1st generation cab unit shells Baldwin's BP20 "Passenger Shark" A&B units and the first run of its Fairbanks Morse's Erie-Built A units. Meet noted PRR author Dan Cupper, a Withers Publishing editor, who will be selling his own works and Wither's latest installment in its PRR motive power series on Baldwin cab & transfer diesels. Dave's Books, Delaware, Ohio, anticipates having in stock the first installment of Morning Sun Books' all-new PRR series "Pennsylvania, Standard Railroad of the World; Vol. 1," now slated for an April 1 release. Browse through LinesWest Vintage Magazines' more than 150 issues of model railroad magazines -- Mainline Modeler, Model Railroading, Railmodel Journal, Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsman -- each with information about the PRR. A 12-issue lot of Rails Northeast will be sold via silent auction. Take a ride on the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Ry. (once the PRR's Lebanon and Middletown branches) Sunday, April 11, 1999 from 3 p.m. 'til we get back! Departing from the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. depot, in Mason, Ohio for the regular fare** of $10 Special Pennsy Lines West Fans' Fest lodging rates are now available! $42.50 plus $5.10 tax per night, single or double occupancy for reservations placed on or before March 15, 1999, The Allendale Inn, 38 S. Allison Ave. Xenia, Oho, 937-376-8124 Next to the Perkins' Pancake House at Allison Avenue & West Main Street (US 35 Business Loop) 1 mile west of PRR Lines West Fans Fest More than a dozen restaurants are located within three blocks of the hotel `For more information contact : Tom Vondruska, Pennsylvania Lines West Fans Fest, 326 W. Center College St., Yellow Springs, Ohio 45387-1406 937-767-1903, voice, data & fax e-mail: lineswest@aol.com ** The fare for CL&N excursion on the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. fare is separate from other PRR Lines West Fans Fest admission prices The Pennsylvania Lines West Fans Fest is a not-for profit educational and recreational activity produced by VonCom/LinesWest, Yellow Springs, Ohio.. VonCom/LinesWest is solely responsible for the event. and is not affiliated with nor an agent of, the Greene County Historical Society. nor of the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. Any proceeds will be used for preservation of the PRR Lines West heritage as decided by a voice vote at the end of the activities on April 10,, 1999. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:01:49 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] N-scale layout Hello, To the person who asked about the layout, I was thinking somewhere on the order of $300 considering the work I put into it with all the electrical and most of the scenery. All it's missing is buildings and trees. I don't know, I hope that's a fair price...... Cheers, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:59:22 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] updates to "The Limited" Hello everyone, Just a quick note to let you know that I have just uploaded the first page on PRR Lines West regional passenger operations (Pittsburgh - Cleveland - Erie - Columbus trains). The page still needs a bit of work, but it is the most complete PRR operational coverage posted to date. This will be the first of three pages on Lines West operations (in addition to the long haul trains in "The Race To Chicago"). I hope everyone will drop by and take a look, and if you see any additions or corrections, please get back to me. http://www.thoseclassictrains.com/LAKESdata1.html Thanks for your interest! Best to all, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Snow Extra 402 (fiction) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 11:12:15 -0500 From: Jerry It's 10:58 a.m., March 14, 1955, and the order has just come down from W.C. Allen, Superintendent, Philadelphia Division, Eastern Region, of the Pennsylvania Railroad: our partners in the south report a late-season "nor'easter" which promises to drop 3-6" of heavy, wet snow by nightfall, with 6-12" due by morning. Over 24" has already dropped in areas southwest of our territory. Per the "Special Instructions for Snow Storms", issued October 15, 1952, snow flangers 496091 (Harrisburg), 496078 (Enola), 496069 (Columbia), and Jordan Spreader 497401 (Columbia) are "stand by" status. Appropriate power are assigned to each. We have been assigned flanger 496091 and a trio of GP7's. Our consist, Snow Extra 402, is on the ready track at the Reilly Street Locomotive Terminal, awaiting our arrival. We've got two N5C cabins on our rear, to provide comfort and warm meals for what may prove to be a very long shift. Our assignment: Keep the passenger mains clear from Harrisburg through Elizabethtown, as well as the Royalton freight line from Harrisburg to Columbia. The flakes are just beginning to fall. But for now, it's "sit and wait". < -- anyone wan't to continue this little novel? -- > ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: What's a Listmaster To Do? Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 13:04:51 -0500 From: Jerry Folks, I don't know what to do when. Overall, this list is very polite and very informative. About a week ago, a response to Mark Bej's post about cable controls opened with what I felt were derogatory comments toward Mark. Now, I was not taking either Mark's nor the other's side in the case, but I felt the opening remark was uncalled for and posted that thought to the list. There has been quite a flurry of "off-list" discussion since, and numerous individuals have gone off in a huff and unsubscribed over it. There are over 300 subscribers to the list. I cannot make everyone happy. However, everyone on the list, whether right or wrong in the information they provide, should be treated with respect. If you don't respect them, that's your right, but don't use this list as a forum to announce your feelings. If someone posts incorrect information, please respond with "I disagree" or "I beg to differ", then post your response and include references, if possible. Our beloved Pennsy has been gone for over 30 years. She is not around to be consulted. We must do our best to triage the information that is posted to the list. No one person is authoritative on all aspects of the Pennsy -- and I don't care who you are. Therefore, it is impossible to moderate a list like this. In summary, I apologize to anyone who was offended by my previous post about "flaming", but I reiterate, let's all act like adults. If you have a theory, not facts, please express it as such. Let's all get along! Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Judy" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:43:00 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Northern division PRR before 1930 I am interested in PRR information for the line from Grand Rapids, MI to Traverse City, MI. Great grandfather, Phil H. Griffin, was a brakeman and then conductor on the PRR northern division for more than 30 years (from before 1895 to 1925). He worked the Cadillac, MI to Traverse City, MI run and the Grand Rapids to Traverse City run. He died later in the day after finishing his run to Grand Rapids at 2 am. Looking for any PRR information specific to this time period and place. A search on the web mainly generated PRR information later than 1930. Thanks for any help! Judy Griffin griffinl@athenet.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:20:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Snow Extra 402 (fiction)Part2 Jerry writes: It's 10:58 a.m., March 14, 1955, and the order has just come down from W.C. Allen, Superintendent, Philadelphia Division, Eastern Region, of the Pennsylvania Railroad: our partners in the South report a late-season "Nor'easterner" which promises to drop 3-6" of heavy, wet snow by nightfall, with 6-12" due by morning. Over 24" has already dropped in areas southwest of our territory. Per the "Special Instructions for Snow Storms," issued October 15, 1952, snow flangers 496091 (Harrisburg), 496078 (Enola), 496069 (Columbia), and Jordan Spreader 497401 (Columbia) are "stand by" status. Appropriate power are assigned to each. We have been assigned flanger 496091 and a trio of GP-7's. Our consist, Snow Extra 402, is on the ready track at the Reilly Street Locomotive Terminal, awaiting our arrival. We've got two N5C cabins on our rear, to provide comfort and warm meals for what may prove to be a very long shift. Our assignment: Keep the passenger mains clear from Harrisburg through Elizabethtown, as well as the Royalton freight line from Harrisburg to Columbia. The flakes are just beginning to fall. But for now, it's "sit and wait." One the wire: Problems have been reported system wide, Conway is under 19 inches of snow and snow is still falling! Columbus and Cincinnati are expecting heavy snow by morning. Ft. Wayne is being effected by a "Laking effect" as well as Cleveland. But for this tiny crew in Harrisburg lead by John Jones, a veteran conductor in these parts since before the war, he knows weather like this spells trouble even with these new diesels. He knows the big boss expects the those trains to keep moving and the issue at hand is to clear the main! His engineer, Bob Edwards, a young hogger raised mostly on these new diesels draws his duty call form the board, mostly because he lives real close to the yards with his young family. Edwards says, " Hey, Johnny we gotta cut off some of the cold air to the radiator fans next to the cab or the radiator will freeze up, we got any old canvas around here?" Johnny haulers back, "sure kid, got some next to the coal box in the cabin car," he turns to the flagman, Tommy Thompson, another "wetnose" that hired on right after the war. "Tommy, get Edwards them canvas strips we got in the cabin car, use my buck knife and cut'em up and cover them openings we got to get this show on the road. We've already wasted nearly and hour hookin' up this "snow bound extra" so let's get moving. Johns turn to long time friend Ben Weaver, a veteran brakeman of 25 years, and tells him, "Ben, Maw got a call from Carol, my boys wife out of Beaver Falls, and she say Teddy drew the extra board call for the snow hauler from Conway down to Yellow Creek, the cutoff on the Baird Branch. I guess that Ohio Valley got hit hard with snow, I'm a bit worried 'bout that kid. He ain't never been in one of these "Nor'easterner's" except sitting in the kitchen with Maw waiting for me to come home. We best get rollin', it's gonna be a long shift." Ben grabs four lanterns and heads to the cabin car walking next to Jones and turns to John and says, " don't worry about that kid he's got a good head on his shoulders and a damn good teacher. I'll check on those two wet noses and why don't you get the coffee pots roaring and I'll be back in a minute. Okay?" John lifts his head and looks straight into Ben's eyes and says, " Ben, I hope you're right. I'll get the coffee going. Who drew the flanger duty?" Ben replies, " Jerry and Mark and that thing is a bucket of bolts. Jerry said it has a couple of holes in the floor, so I gave him some coffee can lids to cover 'um up, he said they might be too small." A few minutes later: John gets the all clear from the tower and gives the "high ball" from the platform of the cabin car... It's snowing harder now and the he is still thinkin' 'bout Teddy in Conway, that damn Ohio River can be snowing and the fog can still get so thick you could cut it with a knife... He hears the two short blast... He feels a jolt ... and he heads back in the hack to grab some mud. It's gonna be a long shift for sure... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:31:14 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: [PRR] Grand Rapids & Indiana 1900 Anybody that wants a copy of the passenger schedule of the GR&I can send me a message with only the subject of "GRI 1900. From there I will send it to everybody one time. I will do it Monday night. The layout of Transfer Yard-1966 I will send also Monday night, just send a subject "Transfer1966". That's all I need. I'll have other stuff later. Mostly Vandalia-Lines West........ What else did you expect from Central Indiana ? How about St. Louis Division 1941? Steve Long ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Update: First Conrail Unit Repaint Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:24:02 -0500 News from The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP... The first re-numbered Conrail diesel unit, an SD50, is now completing its second revenue trip sporting its new number boards. SD50 6715 now wears assigned number CR 5409. It arrived at Conway Yard on AlPi2 late Saturday afternoon (2nd unit in consist, 6566 leading, with a female engineer!). It left a few hours later EB as the lead unit of PiAl3 and was last OS'd in Reading, PA, headed for Allentown, PA. And, yes, Virginia... it is a "quickie" repaint. There is a band of WHITE paint below the cab windows, with the new road number in BLUE. One can speculate as to whether this has any relationship to SD70/80MAC paint design. Anyway, the GOOD news is that, in characteristic Norfolk Southern fashion, the unit contains prior ownership sub-lettering (under the number): PRR! So, in a manner of speaking, the Pennsy lives on! The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP is a railfan B&B, located on both the CSX and Conrail mainlines, about 25 miles NW of Pittsburgh and about 10 minutes from Conway Yard. It is pattered after The STATION INN in Cresson, PA, but in a railfan's private home. For printed information, send your snail mail address off-list to the sender. Or call (724) 843-7023. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:10:32 +0000 From: Clark Hallman Subject: [PRR] End of the Line - Book --------------3F78FCBEAC074B189A81F3DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been working on an annotated bibliography of PRR books for a few years. I hope to publish the bibliography eventually. Anyway, I read End of the Line awhile ago, and my entry for the book follows: Davis, Patricia T. (1978). End of the line: Alexander J. Cassatt and the Pennsylvania Railroad. New York: Neale Watson Academic Publications, Inc. Davis' portrait of the seventh president (1899-1906) of the Pennsylvania Railroad is not a scholarly work. She provides only a short bibliography, no footnotes, and the book contains several factual errors. However using an extensive collection of family letters, the Cassatt presidential letter books, corporate materials, and the reminiscences of Cassatt family members, Davis has produced an interesting and valuable sketch of the life and character of this important figure of railroad management history. She reveals Cassatt's loyalty to the company and his callous insensitivity to labor during the 1877 Pittsburgh labor strike and riots while Cassatt was a third vice president of the PRR. She also reveals Cassatt's strength and ruthlessness in his struggles with industrialists like John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, and George Gould to end the practice of railroad rebates, and fight off competition. His destruction of 1,500 miles of Western Union telegraph wire and over 60,000 poles in one day serves as testimony of his ruthlessness. Davis also covers what was perhaps Casatt's greatest contribution, his initiation of the PRR's movement of its eastern terminal from the west bank of the Hudson River to the heart of Manhattan via a tunnel system and the construction of Pennsylvania Station in mid-town Manhattan. Although not completed until 1910, after Cassatt's death, his contributions were invaluable for this project. (208 pages, book) -- Clark Hallman challman@itctel.com --------------3F78FCBEAC074B189A81F3DF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been working on an annotated bibliography of PRR books for a few years.  I hope to publish the bibliography eventually.  Anyway, I read End of the Line awhile ago, and my entry for the book follows:

Davis, Patricia T. (1978). End of the line: Alexander J. Cassatt and the
Pennsylvania Railroad. New York: Neale Watson Academic Publications, Inc.
Davis' portrait of  the seventh president (1899-1906) of the Pennsylvania Railroad
is not a scholarly work.  She provides only a short bibliography, no footnotes, and the
book contains several factual errors.  However using an extensive collection of family
letters, the Cassatt presidential letter books, corporate materials, and the reminiscences of
Cassatt family members, Davis has produced an interesting and valuable sketch of the
life and character of this important figure of railroad management history.  She reveals
Cassatt's loyalty to the company and his callous insensitivity to labor during the 1877
Pittsburgh labor strike and riots while Cassatt was a third vice president of the PRR.  She
also reveals Cassatt's strength and ruthlessness in his struggles with industrialists like
John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, and George Gould to end the
practice of railroad rebates, and fight off competition.  His destruction of 1,500 miles of Western Union telegraph wire and over 60,000 poles in one day serves as testimony of
his ruthlessness.  Davis also covers what was perhaps Casatt's greatest contribution, his
initiation of the PRR's movement of its eastern terminal from the west bank of the
Hudson River to the heart of Manhattan via a tunnel system and the construction of
Pennsylvania Station in mid-town Manhattan.  Although not completed until 1910, after
Cassatt's death, his contributions were invaluable for this project.  (208 pages, book)

--
Clark Hallman
challman@itctel.com
  --------------3F78FCBEAC074B189A81F3DF-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:44:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Looking for Bill! PRR List, Hello, I am looking for someone on this list who's first name is Bill. I believe their last name is Knepper??? I mistakingly lost your email address. We emailed each other about a month ago, maybe two. The Bill I am looking for worked the Timonium Maryland train show back in February. Please email me. I believe I have something here you are looking for. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] Snow Extra 402 (fiction) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:43:35 -0500 >Our assignment: Keep the passenger mains clear from Harrisburg through >Elizabethtown, as well as the Royalton freight line from Harrisburg to >Columbia. > >The flakes are just beginning to fall. But for now, it's "sit and wait". > >< -- anyone wan't to continue this little novel? -- > Before a flanger turns a wheel, Jerry, the first order of business, even for Mr. Allen, is how many pounds of coffee do you have in those N5C's? Any further discussion about keeping the main will proceed from that Chapter 1! Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Snow Extra 402 (fiction) - Prequel Date: Sun, 14 Mar 99 19:21:40 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/14/99 5:43 PM, Richard F. Makse (rfm@twinney.com) wrote: >Before a flanger turns a wheel, Jerry, the first order of business, even for >Mr. Allen, is how many pounds of coffee do you have in those N5C's? Any >further discussion about keeping the main will proceed from that Chapter 1! Okay, new consist for Snow Extra 402: (1) Flanger (3) GP7's (1) B-60 Baggage* (2) N5C cabins * The Baggage permits walk-through between the GP's and the cabins. The contents of the baggage car is a mule carrying sacks of Bolivian coffee, escorted by a young kid by the name of Juan Valdez. Brass in Philly think this guy is going to amount to something one day! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:14:25 -0500 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Sunset K-4 I am now taking offers on a custom painted Sunset Prestige Series modern K-4s #5355, with MV lens and kadee couplers. This engines has has been run only a few times, it runs like a watch, and is in excellent shape and has its own box. Please email inquiries to me. Thanks, Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:40:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Snow Extra 402 (fiction)Part3 TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << Jerry writes: It's 10:58 a.m., March 14, 1955, and the order has just come down from W. C. Allen, Superintendent, Philadelphia Division, Eastern Region, of the Pennsylvania Railroad: our partners in the South report a late-season "Nor'easterner" which promises to drop 3-6" of heavy, wet snow by nightfall, with 6-12" due by morning. Over 24" has already dropped in areas southwest of our territory. Per the "Special Instructions for Snow Storms," issued October 15, 1952, snow flangers 496091 (Harrisburg), 496078 (Enola), 496069 (Columbia), and Jordan Spreader 497401 (Columbia) are "stand by" status. Appropriate power are assigned to each. We have been assigned flanger 496091 and a trio of GP-7's. Our consist, Snow Extra 402, is on the ready track at the Reilly Street Locomotive Terminal, awaiting our arrival. We've got two N5C cabins on our rear, to provide comfort and warm meals for what may prove to be a very long shift. Our assignment: Keep the passenger mains clear from Harrisburg through Elizabethtown, as well as the Royalton freight line from Harrisburg to Columbia. The flakes are just beginning to fall. But for now, it's "sit and wait.">> On the wire: Problems have been reported system wide, Conway is under 19 inches of snow and snow is still falling! Columbus and Cincinnati are expecting heavy snow by morning. Ft. Wayne is being effected by a "Laking effect" as well as Cleveland. But for this tiny crew in Harrisburg lead by John Jones, a veteran conductor in these parts since before the war, he knows weather like this spells trouble even with these new diesels. He knows the big boss expects the those trains to keep moving and the issue at hand is to clear the main! His engineer, Bob Edwards, a young hogger, raised mostly on these new diesels, draws his duty call from the extra board, mostly because he lives real close to the yards with his young family. Edwards says, " Hey, Johnny we gotta cut off some of the cold air to the radiator fans next to the cab or the radiator will freeze up, we got any old canvas around here?" Johnny haulers back, "sure kid, got some next to the coal box in the cabin car," he turns to the flagman, Tommy Thompson, another "wetnose" that hired on right after the war. "Tommy, get Edwards them canvas strips we got in the cabin car, use my buck knife and cut'em up and cover them openings we got to get this show on the road. We've already wasted nearly and hour hookin' up this "snow bound extra" so let's get moving. Johns turn to long time friend Ben Weaver, a veteran brakeman of 25 years, and tells him, "Ben, Maw got a call from Carol, my boys wife out of Beaver Falls, and she said Teddy drew the extra board call for the snow hauler from Conway down to Yellow Creek, the cutoff on the Baird Branch. I guess that Ohio Valley got hit hard with snow, I'm a bit worried 'bout that kid. He ain't never been in one of these "Nor'easterner's" except sitting in the kitchen with Maw waiting for me to come home. We best get rollin', it's gonna be a long shift." Ben grabs four lanterns and heads to the cabin car walking next to Jones and turns to John and says, " Don't worry about that kid he's got a good head on his shoulders and a damn good teacher. I'll check on those two wet noses and why don't you get the coffee pots roaring and I'll be back in a minute. Okay?" John lifts his head and looks straight into Ben's eyes and says, " Ben, I hope you're right. I'll get the coffee going. Who drew the flanger duty?" Ben replies, " Jerry and Mark and that thing is a bucket of bolts. Jerry said it has a couple of holes in the floor, so I gave him some coffee can lids to cover 'um up, he said they might be too small." A few minutes later: John gets the all clear from the tower and gives the "high ball" from the platform of the cabin car... It's snowing harder now and the he is still thinking' 'bout Teddy in Conway, that damn Ohio River Valley can be snowing and the fog can still get so thick you could cut it with a knife... He hears the two short blast... He feels a jolt ... and he heads back in the hack to grab some mud. It's gonna be a long shift for sure... Conductors Log March 14, 1955 Called on at 11:00 AM Extra 402 Snow Extra Made the tower 11:55 high ball sign given... About 20 minute out of the yard we were alerted to an Extra moving west with engine #3437--H9s and a mixed cut of 38 cars stuck on the siding trying to get the switch heater to work so they can throw the switch lead. "Ben you better let Edwards know to slow up a bit because up around the curve old Jim Stein is on the siding with a cut and a froze up switch. Tell him that he better slow up or Britton and Bej might just bury that crew in snow," says Jones, as he takes a drink of coffee. Jones thinks to himself that in duty like this there is nobody he would rather be workin' with but Ben, the best darn brakeman out of Harrisburg. Ben picks up the trainphone and calls up to Bob Edwards. "Bobby, better back her off a bit up around the bend we got a crew trying to dig out the switch lead and they say they are hip deep in it. Jones says he wants to take it real slow, we might need to pull in there and help them out, got it? Send Tommy up to Jerry and Mark and let them know what is going on!" Ben knew exactly what John was thinking he knows old Don Schoenberg's boy Rob is out there in that mess and he knows how quick a kid can get frost bite, got to look out for them kids, because John's boy is out there somewhere this afternoon too. Tommy bust out into the bitter cold crosses the M. U. platform and climbs into the flanger car. It seems to be freezing in this old wreck, Tommy thinks to himself, it was so much warmer in the engine. Tommy makes his way to Mark, who is sweating like a beast. "What ya got kid," say Mark with little patients. "Well, Jones says we might need to make a stop ahead and help the extra local out of a tough jam just up ahead. They're stuck and the switch points are froze we might need to clear the lead so they can make their way out." "Did ya hear that Britton? We got to dig out that extra local we been hearing that jabber from for the last hour." Probably gonna have to run down as far as we can and peel some of that white stuff off for 'um." yells Bej. "Hells bells, we are never gonna get home tonight if we stop for every snow bound local, what crew is that anyway?", yells back Jerry. "Hey, Hey, that's Stein's crew and Rob's signed on to that junk hauling extra. We need to get them boys some clear trackage to get them home before all hell let's loose tonight." Mark shouts back. Mark turns to Tommy and ask, "How you two doin' for coffee, got your Thermos full?" Tommy just shakes his head, turns slowly and heads back to the engine. "Never seen it like this, never!" mutters the toe headed kid from Philly. Meanwhile the snow extra turns the bend ... slows as the they come upon the hazy yellow light from the little snow hammered H9s... The yellow light is barely visible in the driving snow. Three black shadows start waving as the flanger comes to a stop just beyond the switch. Out pops Britton just as Jones and Weaver walk up along the side of the flanger. "What do you think John, want to try to clear their switch? Mark and I can get real close to her if your hoggers any good." "Well, Jerry I don't really see an option these guys could freeze to death out here, but that hogger is a wet nose and me and Ben better watch the point, I'll send Thompson back to set torpedoes just in case. I think there is a train on our keester so we better make this quick and do it right. Thompson go set torpedoes and fuzes ... protect the rear." John says collectively. "Hey, Schoenberg's did you ever get that damn switch heater going? You and that flagman dig out that ground throw and get ready to lines us to the siding, we're gonna dig you guys out the best we can. Where's Jim Stein and who's that?, Andy Miller how did yuze gize draw this run on a day like this?" yells Jones. Jones heads up to the GEEP to let Edwards know what is going on... "Cripes I'm hungry Ben, you hungry?" mutters Jones "Yep" replies Weaver, "and cold." Snowing harder now and the wind is howling at our ears... Next move get this local running... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:35:22 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] B-1 photos Hi all, I'm looking for photos of the B-1 "rat" for an upcoming project. I'm well aware of the published photos...what I need are photos that you would be willing to let me use that you have clear copyright to. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OnTrackHby@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:51:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Snow Extra 402 (fiction)Part3 This stuff is GREAT! I'm sitting here, looking out the window, watching the snow fall. Drinking my coffee and reading this stuff has definitely been fun. Keep it going! Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: What's a Listmaster To Do? Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:32:12 -0500 (EST) Jerry scrivit, in part: > > However, everyone on the list, whether right or wrong in the information > they provide, should be treated with respect. If you don't respect them, > that's your right, but don't use this list as a forum to announce your > feelings. > If someone posts incorrect information, please respond with "I disagree" > or "I beg to differ", then post your response and include references, if > possible. I went back and reread the post that started this round of polemics. I've included it in full below. I was replying to George Pierson, I believe. I apologize for writing a statement that was too easily misinterpreted. My last sentenceoid (the one beginning with BTW, which is not a full sentence) is a comment on the 3-line sentence that _I_ wrote immediately above it. It is much too easily misinterpreted as a correction of George's description of the pictures in _On the Main Line_, which it was not. (Honest.) My reread shows the whole post to be so brief and allusional[*] as to be potentially worthless as a whole. The point I was trying to make, and apparently failed to make, was that, given the limitations of human strength, and the weight and friction associated with pipe-connected switches, and further given that the pipe-connected signals that governed the routes over those switches would not be placed all that much farther away from the point of control, that huge amounts of warning of an approaching train were hardly needed. One did not have the kind of situation like one has at, say, CORK or THORN towers where the tower is controlling switches and signals a couple of miles away, with the trains passing through that area entirely unseen by the towerman. -- Mark P.S. For the record, there have been equally brief, and even briefer, comments made to this list, and even with no context whatsoever besides off-list conversations ... So we're "all" guilty of this to varying degrees. ===== cut here ===== > A signaling question. I just purchased my own copy of ALONG THE MAIN > LINE and have been enjoying the 19th century views. Many show towers > which control fairly primitive semaphores and the controls appear to be > a direct physical connection via steel wire. I know that in this > century most interlocking plants had model boards and bells which > indicated when a train had entered the boundaries of that plant. This > allowed the towerman to know when to change the turnouts/signals etc. > But what about the 19th century wire-driven towers? How did they know > when a train was entering their plant, esp. in poor weather? How did > they know if the semaphore arm was in the correct position? I guess I'm > asking if they had a model board or just looked out the windows/listened > to the telegraph sounder. In other words, what governed their actions > before there were electrical interlocking circuits? George, without answering all of your questions specifically, remember that mechanical plants have one important limitation: human strength [to pull the lever] relative to the friction in the mechanics. BTW - not steel wire, but _pipe_. -- Mark ===== cut here ===== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Switching at Harrisburg Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 08:53:20 -0500 From: Jerry Given the response to my earlier posts about Harrisburg, 1954, I'm not real hopeful about this one, but here goes... Around the passenger station, steam locos were used early on for consist switching. Once the electric era began, electric B1's took over much of the work. There are ample photos of these "rats" in The Keystone and other books showing switching chores. But what about switching into the REA and PRR Freight sheds? Were these tracks electrified? Anyone know? Based on the trackage, I'd imagine that the PRR freight station probably had its own local loco, with an interchange track for Harrisburg Yard locals to pickup/drop off from. Still, was it juice of diesel? Inquiring minds want to know. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Sorry, 1 more. Date: Mon, 15 Mar 99 10:47:09 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/15/99 9:33 AM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >I've seen TAN used -- what the hell's it mean? Third inquiry in two days... TANgent subject ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 22:27:23 -0500 Hello PRR Fans; A quick update on Rail Classics. We have posted new info on our web site www.railclassics.com on some future projects. The F-38 Heavy Duty Flat Car and also new info on the K-4s project. Take a look !!! EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: The Gavel Falls Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 06:30:36 -0500 From: Jerry Your Listmeister is introducing a new feature: Probation. Given the last post full of cracks and half-hearted apologies, the listserv -- while it will continue to allow anyone to subscribe and receive posts -- now has a "probation" list. Anyone on this list is not allowed to post messages. "PRRSignals" has become the first person added to the new list. 99% of the subscribers to this list are very cooperative. But my patience has worn thin. (The comments of support have been appreciated. Thanks.) "PRRSignals" can continue to receive posts -- and can even circumvent this system by changing e-mail addresses if he wants to take the time to do so. If he does so and returns with civility, so be it. But the "probation" list has lots of room for more addresses if need be!!! P.S. I will reserve the right to end probation at my leisure. I really want this to be an open forum. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:45:13 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: The Gavel Falls On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Jerry wrote: > Given the last post full of cracks and half-hearted apologies, the > listserv -- while it will continue to allow anyone to subscribe and > receive posts -- now has a "probation" list. Anyone on this list is not > allowed to post messages. > > "PRRSignals" has become the first person added to the new list. Isn't this perhaps a bit harsh? Wouldn't it be nice if you'd introduce your new "feature"(*) and after we've had time to become acclimated, then use it? It kinda irritates me that you can do this, but can't make it so I *can* post from not-the-address-I'm-getting-the-mail-at.... I feel your effort is misdirected. > P.S. I will reserve the right to end probation at my leisure. I really > want this to be an open forum. More rock, less talk. -D (*) Yeah, like "feature" when they wanted me to make audio not work on a whole group of our computers. As if. Find someone else to break the machines, I make things work, I don't break them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: The Gavel Falls Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 10:13:31 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/16/99 8:45 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >> Given the last post full of cracks and half-hearted apologies, the >> listserv -- while it will continue to allow anyone to subscribe and >> receive posts -- now has a "probation" list. Anyone on this list is not >> allowed to post messages. >> >> "PRRSignals" has become the first person added to the new list. > >Isn't this perhaps a bit harsh? Wouldn't it be nice if you'd introduce >your new "feature"(*) and after we've had time to become acclimated, then >use it? It kinda irritates me that you can do this, but can't make it so I >*can* post from not-the-address-I'm-getting-the-mail-at.... I feel your >effort is misdirected. Opinion accepted. But Derrick, please understand that a whole slew of e-mails passed back and forth between this individual and myself (and several others) about the "original incident". I made myself more than clear that civility was needed. I then posted my request to the list. Had it been anyone other than "PRRSignals" I would not have acted so promptly. However, his post was full of what I consider "cheap shots" and came after numerous off-list warnings. After a few weeks of Probation, I will probably allow "PRRSignals" back online, if he cares to participate. I hope he will. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:33:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: The Gavel Falls An observation from a (hopefullly) impartial observer, and recent subscriber to this list - Jerry is providing a SERVICE here, ergo, he gets to make the rules. I for one appreciate this service. If you don't, you are free to unsubscribe, or start your own website / list with your own rules. As for Mr. Bej, I have visited his web site on more than one occasion, and I think he provides some very useful and valuable information. Not all of us know everything. If it so happens that you do - please enlighten us. I recently responded to a post re: X-23 boxcars erroneously citing a picture in the "PRR Color Guide ...", and was promptly corrected. While I was only trying to be helpful, I WAS grateful (knowing how etiquette typically goes on the internet), that I was not flamed on for the bad info ; > ) . I DID learn that the picture WAS NOT of an X-23 - so all-in-all, I'm glad for the erroneous post as otherwise I might have gone and MODELED (God Forbid!) this car. Seems to me that the primary requisite for PRR-Talk is civility FIRST (YES - BEFORE historical accuracy, or anything else). Those of you who MUST be accurate/correct/precise ABOVE ALL ELSE can take your models or whatever and go off in a corner ALONE. We are a COMMUNITY with a great common interest - and we should be having FUN with this thing. "Can't we all just get along?" Mike Hagan Andover, MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:05:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Gavel Falls Boy, Jerry, I hate to see this come about. I really enjoy PRRSignals' postings, and he's sent me some very amiable offline commentary, so I feel inclined to offer him a bit of support. Hopefully you guys can iron this out and get him back on line. He's never caused me any aches or pains, which is a lot more than I can say regarding some folks out there in the cyber union station. Some of the #?X^*#! over on other fan lists can't seem to say anything without being highly offensive. (If I wanted that I coulda stayed at work). Well anyway, that's my view of it. Regards, Barry Peltier---PRRT&HS, B&ORRHS, MilwRdHS, NHS, AAL, CIB, CAM, etc & etc ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:52:21 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Red Arrow Wreck On Feb. 18,1947 The Red Arrow went down the side of the mountain off of the "Slide" between Gallitzin Tunnels and Horse Shoe Curve. On March 10, 1947 the two K4s locomotives were retrieved using 4 wrecking crews with 4 big hooks. K4s No. 422 was in the lead and 3771 was the second K4s. Does anyone know if either of these locomotives were ever restored to service? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:29:27 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Red Arrow Wreck TVPedro@aol.com wrote: > > On Feb. 18,1947 The Red Arrow went down the side of the mountain off of the > "Slide" > between Gallitzin Tunnels and Horse Shoe Curve. On March 10, 1947 the two K4s > locomotives were retrieved using 4 wrecking crews with 4 big hooks. K4s No. > 422 was in the lead and 3771 was the second K4s. Does anyone know if either > of these > locomotives were ever restored to service? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings to TVPedro and the List: Considering that PRR records list both locomotives as being scrapped in April 1947, it's highly unlikely. This was one of PRR's worst, with 24 dead and 121 injured. Total number of passengers aboard eastbound Train 68 that night was 238 in 14 cars, about evenly split between coach (113) and sleeper (125). The accident resulted in fatalities to 15 passengers, six RPO employees, the engineman and fireman on the 3771, and the fireman of the 422. Among engine crew members, only Michael S. Billig of Altoona, engineman of the 422, survived. At the PRR investigation he claimed that his speed was not excessive (25-30 mph), but testimony of others conflicted with that. Both engines and tenders and the first seven cars derailed from No. 2 track over Nos. 3 and 4 and went down the embankment on the north side of the alignment. The consist was 422 (K4s) with Class 130P75 tender 3996, 3771 (K4s) with 130P75 tender 3903, BM70 postal car 5473, PB70 combine 4758, P70KR coach 4289, heavyweight 12&1 sleeper McCarr, heavyweight 12&1 sleeper Shraders, D70 diner 7960, heavyweight 12&1 sleeper East Alton, heavyweight sleeper-buffet-lounge-solarium Ogden Canyon, lightweight prewar 10&5 sleeper Cascade Timber, heavyweight sleeper-buffet-lounge-solarium Dixie Land (bound for D.C.), lightweight prewar 10&5 sleeper Cascade Heights (bound for D.C.), heavyweight 12&1 sleeper Francis Hopkinson (bound for D.C.), streamlined P82R coach 4013 (bound for D.C.), B60 baggage (express) car 5959 (bound for Phila.). The last three cars were not derailed. Ogden Canyon through Cascade Heights were derailed but upright. Hope this helps or at least is of interest. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Matthew 6:33 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:05:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Red Arrow Wreck TVPedro, One added piece of info on this wreck. The two K's involved in the wreck, 422 and 3771, were both scrapped in April of 1947. This Info came from Keystone Steam & Electric. A very good book of PRR loco numbers and classes. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:57:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Red Arrow Wreck TVPedro, According to the book, Many faces of the Pennsy K4s, These 2 K4s you have asked about were the second and third to be scraped. I suppose the damage was far to severe to repair. By the way, the First K to be scraped was the one that went over the cliff in Pittsburgh several years or so before the Bennington Curve Crash. Last month on Ebay I sold such a photo that showed the wreck of the Red Arrow. In the view was 4 or 5 Passenger cars and if you looked closely you could see the two K's lying on their sdes. If you or anyone else is interested in one of these pictures I have 1 more for sell. Price is $10.00. I don't have it in front of me but the size is roughly 4"x7". Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:55:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Current Controversy In a message dated 3/17/99 7:52:39 AM Central Standard Time, miracle- castings@on.aibn.com writes: << show basic respect for other list members. If that's what Jerry has to do to maintain control of the list, then so be it! This isn't brain surgery or solving world hunger; there's no reason for rudeness here. If someone posts an erroneous piece of information, then by all means correct them, but with respect. It's really quite simple. >> I just want to agree with the comments by Pat. I really enjoy the list and hate to see it abused. Jerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Current Controversy Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:17:27 -0500 Hi All! I read with interest the recent postings by Jerry and others regarding list etiquette. I seems to me that some people think that they can be rude on mailing lists, because they aren't actually face to face with a real person. I don't believe that's how it should be. If it were my list, I would have reacted the same way as Jerry did. This is, after all, a hobby. If people are subject to rudeness simply for posting an opinion, this will obviously greatly detract from their enjoyment of their hobby. That's why it isn't allowed! I moderate The Casting List on Onelist, and have had to boot someone off on one occasion, simply because they would not show basic respect for other list members. If that's what Jerry has to do to maintain control of the list, then so be it! This isn't brain surgery or solving world hunger; there's no reason for rudeness here. If someone posts an erroneous piece of information, then by all means correct them, but with respect. It's really quite simple. Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: The Gavel Falls Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:44:03 -0500 I am certain that I will not be the last one to comment about Jerry's post but I would like to take a moment of everybody's time to clear the air a bit and put this whole, shall I use the term, "debate", in some context. The discussion started with a simple question about interlockings. A question was posed, inaccurately answered and then refuted with facts. Period. It should have ended there. All I think anybody on this list or any other list deserves from me, from you and from anybody else is some intellectual honesty. We have individuals on this list who are doing serious research or attempting to model a specific locomotive or are seeking operating details on a certain division or branch. Probably a couple are even writing books. If you have a question, ask it. If you have an answer, by all means share it with all of us. But if you haven't a clue, then please don't share your wild speculation with us. It is unfair to present opinions or guesses as facts. But if you do make a mistake, tell us you did. Nobody on this list is an expert on all facets of the PRR nor is anybody on this list infallible. And, in fact, even experts can learn something new from a teenager who discovers some obscure fact about the PRR in a library in Clearfield County. This is not the New York Times that buries retractions on p. 23. This is group of hobbyists who share an interest and passion in a railroad that disappeared over 30 years ago. History at this late remove is becoming harder and harder to reconstruct. Let's stick to what we know or can prove. Absent that, it is perfectly acceptable to use phrases like "I don't know" "It is my theory" or even "In my opinion" or in some cases, DON'T POST. Unlike a book that you can always refer to, emails have a short half life and disappear at the whim of a delete key. The damage done, however, by a misleading statement or by wild guess put forth by an "expert" has a way of lingering in people's minds. It's one thing to offer opinions. It's a totally other thing to offer opinions as facts and then deny that you presented them as facts. That kind of obfuscation and intellectual dishonesty might work in the White House but doesn't have a place among the gentle people of this list. Thanks for your indulgence and now let's all go back to the business of the PRR. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:44:01 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: The Gavel Falls Dick: Thanks for an eloquent statement of the issues at stake here. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:04:35 -0500 Please only one station per person. Name a PRR Station with Green in it. Remember one per person--make sure you give the branch and state. Dick O'Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:22:50 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] PRR stations with green in them Hi All... Ok...Hmmmmm Baltimore's Penn station had green tiles in the mens room. I'm not sure if it still does as i haven't been up there for a while. Now at Christmas time they also would put a huge tree up in the waiting room. Also the stained glass in the ceiling of the waiting room has some green in it. Its also possible...unless the've repainted the offices upstairs in the station that they might still be in the late PRR-early PC light green paint that was used for the interior of many PRR buildings. (I think a shade lighter that cabin car interior green.) Pastel Green ? I know of another...but i'm limited here to only one. You all have fun.... Til Later Hank M. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:08:05 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Green Greensfork, IN on the Cincinnati Division near Richmond, IN. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me answer PRR trivia." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:52:00 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Sorry for the earlier mis-que ... here's my response: Greencastle, PA. Cumberland Valley Branch --On Wednesday, March 17, 1999, 3:04 PM -0500 "Richard F. Makse" wrote: > Please only one station per person. > > Name a PRR Station with Green in it. Remember one per person--make sure you > give the branch and state. > > Dick O'Makse > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:51:18 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green --On Wednesday, March 17, 1999, 3:04 PM -0500 "Richard F. Makse" wrote: > Please only one station per person. > > Name a PRR Station with Green in it. Remember one per person--make sure you > give the branch and state. > > Dick O'Makse > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:20:50 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Richard F. Makse Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 3:05 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Greenville, PA on the E&P. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:13:56 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] GREEN station names? Ok...if you want a station name.... Green Castle...63.3 miles from Harrisburg on the Cumberland Valley Branch. Til Later Hank M. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:02:39 -0500 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Richard F. Makse wrote: > Please only one station per person. > > Name a PRR Station with Green in it. Remember one per person--make sure you > give the branch and state. > > Dick O'Makse I can think of 3 ... but that brings up an interesting question. Are yards stations? Yards are listed in some of the stations pages of some ETTs, *don't* recall if PRR or PC or CR at this point, have to check at home. But. I'll leave those to others and pick an esoteric one. Green Street MP 1.7, Englewood [Chicago] Connecting Railway [or, Line] Illinoiz -- Mark PS are station names with "clover", "shamrock", "blarney", "emerald", etc. permitted? :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:46:19 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: RE: [PRR] N=scale layout I was replying to some folks who had hear that I was selling my 4x6 layout and I didn't get the listserv address correct, so here's my reply: Hi Ron and anyone else in PRR land! Actually I will not be moving for a year because of contractual issues (thank goodness for teacher's unions), but unfotunately I'm having to consider dropping from the teaching profession and it may be a while before I will have ANY sort of space for a layout. But I am thinking of doing a VERY portable layout! Here's my challenge to anyone out there interested in designing layouts. I plan to work with a 4x4 square divided into four equal pieces. Can you design a layout with a minimum radius of 17"? I want to run my T-1 duplex and other passenger locos. I know it sounds a little crazy, but the challenge is rather interesting, considering our British and European friends "across the pond" are constrained by such dimensions. I have an idea that I developed using Atlas's design software which is rather limited (no curved turnouts like Micro-Engineering has) and I'd be happy to scan and mail a copy for your comments! Have FUN ;) Cheers, Roger Elliott Arcata, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Daun Yeagley III" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:36:33 PST >Please only one station per person. >Name a PRR Station with Green in it. Greensburg Pennsylvania, on the Harrisburg / Pittsburgh main... Daun Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 17:09:38 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Greenfield, Indiana On the St. Louis Line (the Panhandle) east of Indianapolis. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Author: "Richard F. Makse" at Internet Date: 3/17/99 4:34 PM Please only one station per person. Name a PRR Station with Green in it. Remember one per person--make sure you give the branch and state. Dick O'Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:32:16 -0500 Mark writes: >I can think of 3 ... but that brings up an interesting question. Are yards >stations? >Yards are listed in some of the stations pages of some ETTs, *don't* recall if > >PRR or PC or CR at this point, have to check at home. But. > >I'll leave those to others and pick an esoteric one. > >Green Street >MP 1.7, Englewood [Chicago] Connecting Railway [or, Line] >Illinoiz > >PS are station names with "clover", "shamrock", "blarney", "emerald", etc. >permitted? A station is a station. No clovers, shamrocks,emeralds or blarney. The contest is enough blarney. Where are all the folks in LINES SOUTH? There's a lot more "green" out there...I'm glad I didn't say "things that are green". We would be getting fern, grass, glen... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 16:27:27 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/17/99 3:04 PM, Richard F. Makse (rfm@twinney.com) wrote: >Name a PRR Station with Green in it. Remember one per person--make sure you >give the branch and state. GREENsburg, Pa. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:42:48 EST Subject: [PRR] B70 The recent search for B70 drawings leads me to a different question. Did any of these cars have arch roofs? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:41:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Bagg In a message dated 3/17/99 9:41:07 PM Central Standard Time, rlivingston01@snet.net writes: << Are there other good drawings or photos of the B70 which show the rivets and butts straps out there somewhere, in some old magazine, or under some rock or other? >> I confess I don't quite understand what you mean by this terminology,but FWIW there is a small photo of 6016 shortly after conversion from M70 6559 in October, 1942, shown in the Spring, 1993 Keystone. I believe there is also a B70 picture and drawing in MR in 1949-52 time period. You might find on Accurail website magazine list. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:07:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green > On 3/17/99 3:04 PM, Richard F. Makse (rfm@twinney.com) wrote: > > >Name a PRR Station with Green in it. Remember one per person--make sure you > >give the branch and state. > Too bad GREENE tower (Cincinnati line's crossing of B&O's Wellston Subdivision) just a few hundred feet west of Xenia doesn't qualify. BTW, Xenia is the county seat of Greene County OH, named for Revolutionary War General Nathaniel Greene. Xenia is also the site of the PRR Lines West Fans Fest on April 10, but you already know that. I guess my next best bid is Greenwood IN on the Panhandle's Louisville main south of Indianapolis. Mind you, Greenwood is not to be confused with at least 4 other "Green"s in Ohio and Indiana. Rick Tipton native of GREENE COUNTY, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:51:51 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Green Woof...Woof, Mah choice are Greensboro, Md on da Delmarva Divison. > Then let Misty answer! > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin E. Crim > To: PRR-Talk > Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 4:34 PM > Subject: [PRR] Green > > >Greensfork, IN on the Cincinnati Division near Richmond, IN. > >-- > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >"I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me answer PRR > >trivia." -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me teach my ol' dawg new tricks." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:18:32 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] B70 Bagg I have two PB-70s by Eastern Car Works that I am trying to build into one B70 baggage car, per drawings in Wayner's *PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams* and the NJ International Heavyweight plan book. Trouble is, neither drawing has the same pattern of rivetted butt straps on the side sheets as shown in the one good photo series of car #6042. The drawings don't match each other, either. Are there other good drawings or photos of the B70 which show the rivets and butts straps out there somewhere, in some old magazine, or under some rock or other? Were these cars actually as variable as the two non-matching drawings and the non-matching photo suggest? -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:22:43 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Green Spring Junction in Maryland, where the Green Spring Branch met the former Northern Central Railway's York, Pa.-Baltimore main line. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: [PRR] End of Wearing o' the Green Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:45:08 -0500 Shore (on the Main Line) and Begorrah (had to have been near Osceola Mills): Nice group of entries. I think Rich Copeland has got to win the Green Keystone Award for Etna Green. You have to give him credit for spirit. He dropped his pantographs when nobody was looking and walked right into Lines West territory and nobody caught him. But we have to give Tom V. the Lines West award for his precise (note I didn't say CONCISE!) description of Greenville, OH... Probably Marvin Crim's dog, Misty, gets the green Milk-Bone for Greensboro, MD on the Delmarva. (Work on his spelling, Marvin--the dog types pretty well!) I didn't throw in an entry but I had in mind Greens, NJ on the Penns Grove Branch of the West Jersey & Seashore (later PRSL). But there are many more legitimate "greens" (that were not consignees) in the various CT1000's posted on Jerry's site http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/index.html Just do your downloading late at night for everybody's benefit. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:36:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Etna Green, Indiana. Chicago Division main line (between Atwood and Bourbon, I think). Millions of passengers roared through it unknowingly, very few used the station. Hey, Lines Westers!! How's that for a "catenary man"??? Done entirely from memory. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:08:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Details, Details, this is the last one Steve, Just wanted to thank you for posting the 1900 Lines West public timetables. I have yet to open the MIME files (I thought I had a MIME reader onboard, and apparently was mistaken). But the jpegs are great and interesting to compare to similar pages from 1905, 1933, and 1946 timetables I currently am lucky to have access to. One thing of "local" interest to note is that in 1900, the Cincinnati, Lebanon, & Northern Ry operated passenger service only as far north as Lebanon OH. The track north of that point was at this time (I believe) the moribund corpus of the Dayton, Lebanon, & Cincinnati, which was later operated by the CL&N and was revived as a through route to Dayton. By 1920, there was heavy commuter service from Lebanon to both Dayton and Cincinnati, and passenger service to Dayton survived into the 1930s, dying from both auto competition and some miles of truly lousy roadbed north of Lytle. Also, on the Louisville Division page, I'm amazed to see the large number of passenger trains shuttling between Louisville KY and New Albany IN on the half hour. Today, they're just towns separated by the Ohio River, but in 1900 the only bridges were 3 railroad bridges (Panhandle, Big Four, Kentucky & Indiana Terminal), and these local accomodations were probably an attractive alternative to the ferry boats. These trains would have used about 3 miles of PRR main out of Louisville Union Station and across the PRR's drawbridge, plus 4.58 miles more on a branch downriver to downtown New Albany. I wonder how the Pennsy competed against the streetcars, which went to New Albany over the K&IT Bridge? Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:41:59 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Hi All, Greenwald, Pa. Alexandria Branch. Glorious Pittsburgh Division. Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:52:04 EST Subject: [PRR] Green Dick Makse and List: An obscure one, lifted from a Catenary Plate Book: Green Tree, located west of Paoli near Malvern. It's the location of a catenary sectionalizing switch. Once upon a time it was listed in the employee timetable as a station, but no more... Bob "BigGreenbeerorbetteryetGuinnessBob" McBoguski / Honorary Irishman, Proud Lithuanian-Pole... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:01:27 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Thanks to Bob Z. and Hank for quick replies to my query. Bob asks, what are butt straps? Butt straps are the flat straps of steel which are rivetted over the butted joints in the side sheets of a car body. They are typically six to nine inches wide in PRR carbuilding practice, and contain two to four rows of rivets. They used them in the days before welding, as it was the only way to join thin sheets with a joint which would not be pulled crooked, as a lap joint would. Believe me, you know em' when you see 'em, as they typify PRR passenger car bodies. Also, Bob, thanks, but I have the old RMC plans of the theater version. I remember these end-door cars coming to New Haven with Broadway play scenery flats. Hank, you mentioned the '42 conversion of 6016 from M70 6559. The NJ International Heavyweight book gives 6000-6064 as the B70 numbers; your observation suggests strongly that the lot was built over time, and some were conversions while others were original construction. NJ Int claims they were standardized (adapted is their word) in 1924. I guess "mixed parentage" explains the differences I have observed. The specs for a car like this would be concerned with door size, placement, overall length, and fittings, (which is what Wayner's official PRR diagrams show) so things like the exact configuration of the sheathing would be left up to the discretion of the shop men, I guess, when they were actually built, or converted as the case may be. I will be on the lookout for the B70 drawings in the '49-52 MR. I have not seen any photos or drawings of B70s with round roofs. Doesn't mean they didn't exist, though! Thanks again, guys. --Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] scale info needed Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:00:13 -0500 I have offered to do some free programming and received two request... One was for a scale calculator,, Give me some help here, what is the diff between, O scale(1:48) and true scale, and semi scale.. I was thinking of putting a button for each scale, and a other to allow you to enter a scale... Then you just enter feet and/or inches punch the button and magic happens... The other was for some help on a web page... I will be traveling to Europe for the next two weeks and will have some time to work on this in the long air time... In the process of getting ready to go I junk all my current mail.. so I'm missing the return address of the people who requested this... tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:41:24 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] scale info needed Greetings to Tom and the group, O Scale is 1:48. What you may be thinking of is the track guage vs O scale. I think that O scale modelers use a 5 foot track guage as opposed to the prototype 4 feet 8.5 inches. True scale or fine scale modelers in O scale would use the correct 4 feet 8.5 inch track guage along with a more prototypic wheel contour. HO is 1:87.1 N is 1:160 Hope this is was what you were looking for. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 08:00 AM 3/18/99 -0500, Thomas Fry wrote: >I have offered to do some free programming and received two request... > >One was for a scale calculator,, Give me some help here, what is the diff >between, O scale(1:48) and true scale, and semi scale.. I was thinking of >putting a button for each scale, and a other to allow you to enter a >scale... Then you just enter >feet and/or inches punch the button and magic happens... > >The other was for some help on a web page... > >I will be traveling to Europe for the next two weeks and will have some time >to work on this in the long air time... > >In the process of getting ready to go I junk all my current mail.. so I'm >missing the return address of the people who requested this... > >tom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:06:18 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Wearing o' the Green Greeting to the group, How about Green Hill, Pennsylvania. It's on the West Chester Branch. Philadelphia Division (1945). I'm cheating though. Have my CT 1000 in front of me! Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:11:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Re: Wearing of the Green Greensburg, Pa on the main line of the Pittsburgh Division and seat of Westmoreland County (not too many miles from Greenwald, also in Westmoreland County, but there are still tracks in Greensburg) === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden J SPL" Subject: [PRR] Gondola, Flat questions Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:56:50 -0800 I guess this is my first series of questions of you knowledgeable people. I have exhausted all my ideas, so could really use some pearls of wisdom.... 1) What are the significant differences between the G22 and G25, besides the ends? Do you have any good ideas for a source for the ends? Could one use the Westerfield G22 sides with crafted ends for a reasonable facsimile? Would the ends off of a G26 suffice? 2) Does anyone know of some good photos and/or drawings of the G32? G32a? G33? G34? I know the emminent craftsmen of the Cinncinnati Division created a G32, but how? 3) Did anyone ever find a good picture of the G28? Drawings? 4) Any ideas on how to start on a G37? 5) What ever happened to the F28, F29, F33, F34, F35, F36, F37, and F38 that Railworks and CIL (?) were going to do? I reserved, and they dropped off the end of the world. 6) If they are now not to be done, does anyone know of any good drawings, plans, photos, esp deck shots, of the F25, F34, and F37 variants? 7) Given that the Walthers Commonwealth flat is incorrect for F41 series, are there any good drawings/plans/photos of the deck to get an idea what modifications are necessary to create an F41, F41a, F41b from the Walthers casting? Is the only difference between the subseries the Crown trucks or the bulkheads? 8) Are there any other good sources of photos, plans, drawings for any of the other series of flats? 9) Are there some good shots of the unusual loads that many of the PRR flats and gons carried? I recall a Keystone with some neat "baobabs" loads in an F25, and some nice shots in the "Freight Cars Vol. ?" book on gons and flats. Are there other good books on this subject? 10) I understand how bridge girders were braced in gons and flats, but how were the decks transported? I have seen grainy photos of the Richard Hendrickson girder train, but no details. 11) Does anyone know of a source for a reprint or original of the "AAR Loading Rules" book dealing with loads for flats and gons. Bob Smaus won't let his out of his sight. Probably with good reason. I realize this is a lot of info, so thanks for any help you can provide in advance. I will pay any reasonable (or unreasonable) costs for reproduction, books, photos, etc., if that is needed. Elden Gatwood ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:15:09 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] scale info needed Tom, O Scale is 1:48 if you are using 1/4 inch scale. This would also apply to tinplate and Hi-Rail, but those models may not be actually _built_ correctly to any scale. Variations include Q gauge, still 1:48, but with a track gage of 1.177 inches, and 0)17, using 1 1/4 inch track gage with a scale of 17/64 inch per foot. The last two are variations to have the track gage used actually scale out to 4 ft 8 1/2 inches, and are generally considered obsolete/extinct. Models still survive in 17/64. British (and European) O is 1:45, scaled 7 mm/ft., actually double the size of American HO scale. Builders in O scale using what is called P:48, with wheel and track standards "EXACTLY" to scale, are still in 1:48. I hope this will help. The button idea is good; if it does not complicate things too much, why not include a box to enter any desired ratio? Steve Bartlett Thomas Fry wrote: > > I have offered to do some free programming and received two request... > > One was for a scale calculator,, Give me some help here, what is the diff > between, O scale(1:48) and true scale, and semi scale.. I was thinking of > putting a button for each scale, and a other to allow you to enter a > scale... Then you just enter > feet and/or inches punch the button and magic happens... > ................. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:08:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trains into north end, Chicago Union Station Gize, For a while now, we have been kicking around the question of whether Panhandle passenger trains used the north end of Chicago Union Station with the Milwaukee Road, and -- if they did -- when was this happening? I started participating in the debate on this subject when I found a "Travel Agent's Atlas", issued by Lines West's passenger department at Pittsburgh in 1905. This atlas' "Lines in Illinois and Missouri" map shows the following passengers stations "west" of Bernice IL(where trains would leave the main from Logansport to enter CUS on the south end): Globe, Berger, Dolton, Riverdale, Blue Island Road, West Pullman, Washington Heights, Forest Hill, Belt Crossing, Marlboro, West Madison Street, Chicago. Have more recently had the luck to access some more PRR public timetables, and they confirm that the above is true: 1. 1900 Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh (a download via PRR-Talk, courtesy of Steve Long): Indianapolis Division page 26 shows trains 32, 18, 20, 40, and 6 all stop at West Madison Street on their way out of Chicago to Logansport. 32 and 40 also have times at Washington Heights and Lansing. June 1st 1926 PRR Time Table - Chicago-St.Louis-Pittsburgh (advertises Philadelphia Sesqui-Centennial Exposition on the cover) shows a sizeable number of trains converging on Chicago via Englewood from Panhandle points like Cincinnati, Richmond, Louisville, and Logansport. However, the "Columbus and Chicago" page (Table 42) aldo shows #431 in daily 6:30 am from Logansport, running via Bernice-Globe-Dolton-Riverdale-West Pullman-Washington Heights- West Madison Street-Chicago with arrival at 10:40 am. #430 goes back out via the same route at 2:30 pm, arriving at 6:30 PM. Thus, there was still PRR passenger service into the north end of CUS as late as 1926. BTW, I find nothing about this in 1937's TT. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:36:20 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Green A little late for St. Patricks, but how 'bout Greenville Yard and Greenville Piers Greenville Branch, N.J. Can't get more green than that! Green stations, green branch! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:10:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: RE: [PRR] N=scale layout Hi Roger, >Here's my challenge to anyone out there interested in designing >layouts. I plan to work with a 4x4 square divided into four equal >pieces. Can you design a layout with a minimum radius of 17"? I want >to run my T-1 duplex and other passenger locos. I know it sounds a >little crazy, but the challenge is rather interesting, considering our >British and European friends "across the pond" are constrained by such >dimensions. 17" radii? Putting on my "other" hat as a member of the Layout Design Special Intereast group of the NMRA (one of the best uses of $30 I've ever seen. http://www.ldsig.org), I would have to say that 17" is a reasonable idea. That equates to approximately 34" in HO (the scale I'm in) and may work OK with such a long rigid wheelbase loco. Since you are in N scale, I assume that your T1 is brass and has a rigid frame...so watchout for the tender shorting on the cab. As for layout design parameters...consider the "domino" approach that David Barrow espouses. These can be set up and taken down easily, can occupy space temporarily for an ops session adn can be encorporated into a larger layout later. You will obviously need a place for the T1 to come from and go to, so make sure you think about staging. And I would HIGHLY reccommend that you try to modle an actual location...foot for foot isn't necessary, just try to give the "feel". In your case, thinking of mainlin modeling, look at the first article in Model Railroad Planning 1999, on modeling based on a train sheet...Modeling an interlocking with a branch and main might be a very slick idea. Also, the "Virginia Teardrop" layout from the same journal gives you a way of modeling a grade in a reduced amount of space. While it may not work for Horseshoe Curve, you could do some really neat things in a small space! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] B70 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:46:33 -0500 There's a B70 diagram on my web site (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=baggage) I'm at work and can't check to see if it's the same one as in the Wayner book. It specifically lists that it's for cars 6004 and 6026 which were express messenger cars. Unfortunately the book I scanned didn't have any other B70 diagrams. (lots and lots of B70B's though - now that's a real mixed class of cars!) Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > Livingston > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 8:01 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 > > > Thanks to Bob Z. and Hank for quick replies to my query. > > Bob asks, what are butt straps? Butt straps are the flat straps of > steel which are rivetted over the butted joints in the side sheets of a > car body. They are typically six to nine inches wide in PRR carbuilding > practice, and contain two to four rows of rivets. They used them in the > days before welding, as it was the only way to join thin sheets with a > joint which would not be pulled crooked, as a lap joint would. Believe > me, you know em' when you see 'em, as they typify PRR passenger car > bodies. > > Also, Bob, thanks, but I have the old RMC plans of the theater version. > I remember these end-door cars coming to New Haven with Broadway play > scenery flats. > > Hank, you mentioned the '42 conversion of 6016 from M70 6559. The NJ > International Heavyweight book gives 6000-6064 as the B70 numbers; your > observation suggests strongly that the lot was built over time, and some > were conversions while others were original construction. NJ Int claims > they were standardized (adapted is their word) in 1924. I guess "mixed > parentage" explains the differences I have observed. The specs for a > car like this would be concerned with door size, placement, overall > length, and fittings, (which is what Wayner's official PRR diagrams > show) so things like the exact configuration of the sheathing would be > left up to the discretion of the shop men, I guess, when they were > actually built, or converted as the case may be. > > I will be on the lookout for the B70 drawings in the '49-52 MR. > > I have not seen any photos or drawings of B70s with round roofs. Doesn't > mean they didn't exist, though! > > Thanks again, guys. --Robert Livingston > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 13:38:38 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Bagg Bob: Regarding PRR B-70 Number 6042. Is that the one with Futura lettering? If it is, I believe that the unique trucks were available from Precision Scale about a few years ago. I think the they are discontinued. I too, am modeling a B-70 but with two Bachmann PB-70's cut in two. I will watch this thread and will post anything that I can find. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] B70 Bagg Author: rlivingston01@snet.net at Internet Date: 3/18/99 12:14 AM I have two PB-70s by Eastern Car Works that I am trying to build into one B70 baggage car, per drawings in Wayner's *PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams* and the NJ International Heavyweight plan book. Trouble is, neither drawing has the same pattern of rivetted butt straps on the side sheets as shown in the one good photo series of car #6042. The drawings don't match each other, either. Are there other good drawings or photos of the B70 which show the rivets and butts straps out there somewhere, in some old magazine, or under some rock or other? Were these cars actually as variable as the two non-matching drawings and the non-matching photo suggest? -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Bagg Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:48:04 -0500 At the East Coast Hobby Show, I had the opportunity to talk to one of the fellows from Eastern Car Works. He indicated that they are CONSIDERING (as opposed to planning) on developing B70 sides for their Baggage/Express Core Kit. Now might be the time to write a letter of support to ECW. If anyone has plans, now is also the time to offer them to ECW. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews To: prr-talk@dsop.com ; rlivingston01@snet.net Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Bagg > Bob: > > Regarding PRR B-70 Number 6042. Is that the one with Futura lettering? If > it is, I believe that the unique trucks were available from Precision > Scale about a few years ago. I think the they are discontinued. > > I too, am modeling a B-70 but with two Bachmann PB-70's cut in two. I will > watch this thread and will post anything that I can find. > > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: [PRR] B70 Bagg >Author: rlivingston01@snet.net at Internet >Date: 3/18/99 12:14 AM > > >I have two PB-70s by Eastern Car Works that I am trying to build into >one B70 baggage car, per drawings in Wayner's *PRR Passenger and Freight >Car Diagrams* and the NJ International Heavyweight plan book. Trouble >is, neither drawing has the same pattern of rivetted butt straps on the >side sheets as shown in the one good photo series of car #6042. The >drawings don't match each other, either. Are there other good drawings >or photos of the B70 which show the rivets and butts straps out there >somewhere, in some old magazine, or under some rock or other? Were >these cars actually as variable as the two non-matching drawings and the >non-matching photo suggest? -- Robert Livingston > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:18:03 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Green Although I would have bet a bottle of skunky green beer that I would find an Envy, Pa., in the Amish country, I guess they never let the baser side take over. No luck in my 1950 _Official Guide_. Any one for orange juice??? Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:03:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] scale info needed "O" scale - actually 0 "zero" scale - as it was regarded as the smallest practical scale at the time IS 1/4" to the foot ( 1/48) - but track gauge was specified as 1 1/4" - ( 5' ) to make things easier. For some time after WW2 "purists" used 17/64" to the foot which got the track guage back close to 4' 8 1/2" This scale is for the most part obsolete. European "O" scalers use 7mm to the foot (1/43) - about twice HO which was supposed to be "Half O" - which, therefore, SHOULD have been 1/8" to the foot (1/96) - but the English "HO" is 4mm to the foot - go figure! Today "Proto 48" types are using 1/4" scale, narrow wheels and the correct track gauge in "O" scale - I've never heard the term "True Scale" - except as an old brand name for rolling stock and milled wood roadbed, but if it is "current" it must be these folks. Among "O" types we use the term "O" scale to refer only to 2 rail. 3 Railers are "O" gauge (not scale) - they must be the "semi-scalers" you refer to. Among 3 railers "O-27" refering to track radius has long meant "O" guage track with smaller "semi-scale" equipment - generally 3/16" to the foot. "Hi-Rail" and more recently "O-72" has been used to designate three railers who attempt to model at 1/4" to the foot - but until the latest round of "scale" equipment from MTH Lionel and K-Line, most three rail has been undersized You now know much more than you wanted to - but you did ask for something to think about "on a long airplane ride" My advice - set your "O" scale button at 1 to 48 and forget about it the "True Scalers" and the "Semi-scalers" will continue to make their own rules - and rulers Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:23:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Gondola, Flat questions In a message dated 3/18/99 2:21:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Elden.J.Gatwood@splmail01.spl.usace.army.mil writes: << 2) Does anyone know of some good photos and/or drawings of the G32? G32a? G33? G34? I know the emminent craftsmen of the Cinncinnati Division created a G32, but how?>> I suspect you could build a reasonable model working from the diagrams, as published on Rob Schoenberg's web site at http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/ Judging from the diagrams, it looks like you could build the sides from G31 sides, shortening them (in length), removing the fishbelly, and splicing two of them vertically to get the increased height. Haven't tried that one yet. The General Arrangement drawings, which are much more detailed than the diagrams, for the following cars (and others) are available from the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society: G28, G32, G33, G33a, G35. << 3) Did anyone ever find a good picture of the G28? Drawings? >> The Keystone, Autumn 1996, p. 55 has a picture of a G28 (not identified as such, but I matched the car number to the Official Register). It's a 3/4 view showing about 3/4 of the car, in color, in the shadow keystone scheme, taken in 1959. Unfortunately, the photographer forgot his "pole filter." :-) This picture was intended to show the yard area, but it does show the gondola. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:24:07 EST Subject: [PRR] A day late, but... ...how could we forget IRISHTOWN ROAD highway crossing east of Cork (Lancaster) on the Main Line... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:26:46 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: [PRR] Last one on the Green >From the Vandalia Line: Greenup, Illinois Better known as the St. Louis Line and it's depot still exist on the "Greens of the golf course at Greenup along I 70 and that's about 78.8 miles west of Greencastle, Indiana. And also about 143 miles west of Greenfield, Indiana. Steve Long ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:21:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [MEMRA] Passenger Trains into north end, Chicago Union In a message dated 3/18/99 3:40:07 PM Central Standard Time, PIXELS@ameritech.net writes: << I am surprised that the service continued after the opening of the new CUS. >> Which was when? I have been searching for the date and can't find it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:48:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [MEMRA] Passenger Trains into north end, Chicago Union In a message dated 3/18/99 8:07:46 PM Central Standard Time, PIXELS@ameritech.net writes: << According to Moody's Transportation Manual of September 1966, the new Chicago Union Station was, "formally opened on July 23, 1925." >> Reason I ask is that the new station might have been the impetus to drop trains coming in from the North and the Panhandle route. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul W. Schopp" Subject: Re: [PRR] Realy, truely,last one on the Green Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:48:55 -0500 Dick: This is a little bit of a stretch as Grenloch was the terminus of the Camden County Railroad, an extension of the Camden, Gloucester & Mt. Ephraim Rwy. Both companies were wholly-owned subsidiaries of the Atlantic City Railroad, which, in turn, was a Philadelphia & Reading subsidiary. The CG&MtE was constructed in 1873 by an industrialist from Gloucester City to move his products to the ferry at Kaighn's Point Ferry. Opened in 1874, the Camden, Gloucester & Mt. Ephraim was New Jersey's only 3'-0" gauge common carrier. During 1875, the line was extended to Mt. Ephraim. When the Philadelphia & Reading acquired the 3'-6" gauge Philadelphia & Atlantic City Railroad in 1883, it was saddled with ferry service operating from Bulson Street near the southern extremity of Camden. The trip on the ferry took much too long, so, in 1884, the P&R purchased the CG&MtE to gain their franchise for serving the Kaighn's Point Ferry. By 1885, the CG&MtE was standard-gauged. In 1889, at the behest of an industrialist named Bateman, the P&R agreed to build an extension of the CG&MtE to Spring Mills, where Bateman's agricultural implement factory was located. Bateman was required to obtain stock subscriptions and right-of-way land from local farmers. He succeeded in doing both and the line was built. However, the P&R told him they already had two stations on their system named Spring Mills, so the name of his community would have to change--so he selected Grenloch, which is Scottish for green lake. This name was symbolic of the millpond that generated power for his implement works. Actually Grenloch was the third name for the settlement. The first was an Indian name--Tetamekon. Upon formation of the PRSL in 1933, the Pennsylvania Railroad gained a 2/3 share and the Reading 1/3. So, I ask you, does this qualify as a legitimate branch of the Pennsylvania Railroad? Best regards, Paul W. Schopp spanky@voicenet.com ================================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Dick Taylor To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Realy, truely,last one on the Green > How about Grenloch (Green Loch to the un-initiated), last stop on the >on the PRSL Grenloch branch in South Jersey. > >Dick Taylor > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:37:09 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] N-scale layout plan HI Bruce and Locoshop, Here's my plan that I made with Right Track from Atlas. I didn't want to include the attachment in the posting that I made to the listserv, unless Jerry gives me permission. So, if anyone else out there wants to see it let me know, I'll pop in the e-mail for you! Right Track software has no curved turnouts in the database and I used mostly 19" curves. My T-1 is slightly articulated (heh, heh, one of my sneaky feats.....) so it can handle down to 17" radius curves. Thanks, Bruce for your suggestions. Given my tentative design, what area of the PRR could I find pictures of that I could use as a guide to model from? I like the idea of having some photos from a given area and people could see that indeed some of the buildings match. I still have a lot of building kits from my previous layout that I never built. They are a Brookside Icehouse, a couple of small Burnt river mines a one stall brick engine house, a large power station that I was going to convert to a fruit processing plant and some victorian houses as well as some DPM storefronts. Any building kits that you could suggest that represent PRR stuff would be great. I've also got a Union Pacific station. Another thing that would help me is finding an area where it would be common to see the PRR as well as Burlington Route (I have Fine-N-Scale's Pioneer Zephyr - cool!) and Milwaukee Road (Hiawatha- also cool) sort of in passing. You know, maybe some sort of countryside view where a couple of tracks cross or two different lines going in opposite directions. I've got anumber of coal cars as well as fruit cars and lots of box cars, so maybe I'm looking for a main line with a siding stting in a small town or some such thing..... Thanks for the help! Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:39:09 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: [PRR] Realy, truely,last one on the Green How about Grenloch (Green Loch to the un-initiated), last stop on the on the PRSL Grenloch branch in South Jersey. Dick Taylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:58:00 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Pardon my intrusion with a non railroad item Howdy All: These lists are not the place for National political discourse, but I hope that you are all following the stories on the House Bill to allow phone companies to charge long distance charges for internet access. I did not ask the listmasters permission to present this, so if I am out of line - please let me know! If this is an appropriate forum in this one particular case - lets bring it out and chew it over! Thank you for your consideration on this matter Cos wsbcos.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:09:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Green In a message dated 99-03-18 08:16:58 EST, BigBeerBob@aol.com writes: << Green Tree, located west of Paoli near Malvern. It's the location of a catenary sectionalizing switch. Once upon a time it was listed in the employee timetable as a station, but no more... >> I believe Green Tree was the actual end of catenary when it was first installed (1915?), and also that Green Tree was the boundary between the Phila Terminal and Philadelphia Divisions. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pardon my intrusion with a non railroad item Date: Fri, 19 Mar 99 06:22:58 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/18/99 10:58 PM, Wayne S. Betty (wsbcos@cris.com) wrote: >These lists are not the place for National political discourse, but I >hope that you are all following the stories on the House Bill to allow >phone companies to charge long distance charges for internet access. I >did not ask the listmasters permission to present this, so if I am out >of line - please let me know! If this is an appropriate forum in this >one particular case - lets bring it out and chew it over! Please keep this off list. I was watching it, and getting concerned, until I read a press release announcing that one of the FCC board members made some erroneous statements which were used as the basis for widespread news reports that Internet calls would be subject to long distance charges. It was clarrified that this was NOT the case, however, like most corrections, it was only announced on p. 22, meaning that it did not get the notoriety of the original story because it was not as "reactionary". The phone companies are very frustrated with use of the Internet for voice type transfters (C U C Me), etc., and are trying to tap into it. So far, they haven't. Such a bill, if passed, would put sites like "Keystone Crossings" and the lists out-of business....imagine the long distance bill for a 24 hour, 7-day-a-week connection! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:22:42 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Bagg In message <9902189217.AA921793810@ccmail-gw.woolpert.com>, Ted Andrews writes >I too, am modeling a B-70 but with two Bachmann PB-70's cut in two. I will > watch this thread and will post anything that I can find. What an excellent idea. I checked this out with the NJI drawing using an ECW PB-70..... could make a pretty good conversion and with enough left over to do a P70 :-) There seems to be a lot of variation of strapping with these vehicles so I reckon I could live with any slight innacuracies in that dept. Door centres look as though they are pretty close. Does ECW have an e-mail address? Looks like a few letters of encouragement could be heading in their direction. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:28:12 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] S2 and Red Roof A PRR friend of mine who is among the digitally disadvantaged (his fingers are fine, its a computer he lacks) asked me if the S2 ever had the red roof and tender deck treatment. I was embarrased to admit that I did not know. There's a lot a do not know, but I'm always embarrased to admit it ;-) Can anyone out there in Keystoneland help me (and him). -- Thanx, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:56:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pardon my intrusion with a non railroad item In a message dated 3/19/99 12:16:58 AM Central Standard Time, wsbcos@cris.com writes: << These lists are not the place for National political discourse, but I hope that you are all following the stories on the House Bill to allow phone companies to charge long distance charges for internet access. >> I am sorry I just tossed it yesterday (my efficient wife takes trash out the moment I throw it in my wastebasket) , but I received a two page letter from my Congressman, Rep. Barett, answerering my questions to him on this subject. As I understand it, the FCC (not the House), has made some rulings which might affect the internet which may have given rise to the concerns you express. There are,however, no current FCC rulings, or House bills on the immediate agenda, to allow charging long distance charges for internet access. Doesn't mean there could't be in the future, though he,for one, is opposed to same. So doesn't hurt to express your concerns to your congressman. Either there were some rumblings out of the FCC or the House to the effect you indicate or this thought which has been floating around the internet for about a year has taken on the status of "Urban legend" to rival that of the email which when opened will destroy your hard drive. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, Wisconsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:10:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] S2 and Red Roof Andy, According to some info I read before, any PRR Loco built after the M-1 series did not recieve the red cab roofs. On the tender deck it is another story. I put out a question myself like this one several weeks back. I asked about the T-1 tender deck. It did indeed have the "reddish" deck. Inside the Coal Bunker I am not sure of but I did paint this "reddish also. As for the S-2 my opinion is it was probably painted this way also. Gary PS: It seems like there is always exceptions though when it comes to the "Standard" Railroad of the World. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:39:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] S2 and Red Roof In a message dated 3/19/99 2:40:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << According to some info I read before, any PRR Loco built after the M-1 series did not recieve the red cab roofs >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy & Gang, The above info is contained in Don Ball's, "The PRR, 1940s - 1950s," page 133. It states: "Standard shop practice is to paint the tender decks with red oxide; the older locomotives are given red oxide roofs. All of the modern locomotives after the M1as get Brunswick green." It goes on to mention, that the interior of the stacks on the T-1 also received a coat of red oxide. Wonder if any of the others got this same 'stack' treatment? Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Turning 2 Bachman Combines in to a baggage From: Fred G Rea Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:33:56 EST A few days ago one or more of you corresponded re combining two Bachman combines into a full baggage. I did not pay much attention until I thought about it while looking at my combine I guess it produces an ersatz B70 and if you want another P70. I took the plunge and bought two more combines. Question: Did you use one of the un cut roof/window castings and fix up the rain gutters and ventilators, or just splice the roof castings too? Many years ago a friend of mine did this to an AHM combine. He wanted the baggage, I took the leftovers and, with the help of the end from an "Oscar", made a nice free lance, non PRR, heavy weight diner/lounge/solarium that I still run. We each used one full AHM roof/window casting. These Bachman left overs would produce a six axle P70. Any prototype for that? That raises another question. Did PRR own any solariums? I remember riding one Pittsburgh to Harrisburg in the early 40's with my parents. I was about 8 and was fascinated watching the next car rock back and forth. My guess was it was a Pullman club car. Fred Rea PS: I wonder if anyone remembers the Walthers Oscar. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:28:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Turning 2 Bachman Combines in to a baggage In a message dated 3/19/99 4:47:08 PM Central Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << Did PRR own any solariums? >> In 1948 when they bought other Pullman cars, they bought many of their 13 Club series of 8 section- buffet- lounge cars (See Keystone Summer 1989 for an extensive article). Ran on many, many trains, including Blue Ribbon and Clockers, although mostly midtrain in later years. I assume they also bought several of the five Mountain series 10 section lounges which had been open observations but were enclosed to use as mid- train lounges (See Pennsy Journal Spring 1981, page 60. Ran open in the 30s on the Metropolitan and Southland. Ran on the Southland at least through 1946 (not sure if open or closed by then) , also the St. Louisan in the 40s (closed). So there you have as many as 18 original or converted solarium lounges in tuscan and many, if not all, owned by the PRR after 1948! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:02:10 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] DGLE vs Black If DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel or Brunswick Green) was introduced at the time of the M1 series, the locomotives before then must have been black. I have read (*Electric Traction on the PRR 1895-1968* by M. Bezilla, p. 146) that ALL the electric locomotives were black until the GG1 was styled by Raymond Loewy using Brunswick Green, around 1935. Is this true? I had thought the very dark green went back earlier than this. So when was it introduced? With the M1's, the GG1's, or earlier still? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:22:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Turning 2 Bachman Combines in to a baggage In a message dated 3/19/99 7:15:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 3/19/99 4:47:08 PM Central Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << Did PRR own any solariums? >> In 1948 when they bought other Pullman cars, they bought many of their 13 Club series of 8 section- buffet- lounge cars (See Keystone Summer 1989 for an extensive article). Ran on many, many trains, including Blue Ribbon and Clockers, although mostly midtrain in later years. >> The PRRT&HS web site now has a list of all of the heavyweight (PRR called them standardweight) cars Pennsy bought from Pullman. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Stewart C-628... Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:25:47 -0500 Will wonders never cease? Got a call from the hobby shop saying that the undec C-628's are finally here! There goes the wallet! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR GP30's Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:25:41 -0500 Hi all, For everyone who was saying that Proto 2000 wasn't doing GP30's in PRR, check out the announcement on the Proto 2000 web page. The second run will have PRR in three numbers: (July delivery) 23119 Pennsylvania Railroad #2203 23120 Pennsylvania Railroad #2240 23233 Pennsylvania Railroad #2234 There's even a picture of a PRR one on their page... http://www.proto2000.com/proto/GP30_2.htm Rob http://prr.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:00:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP30's Rob, I thought it was decided that everyone knew the PRR GP-30 was going to be released. I believe the talk going around was that this model will be wrong for a Pennsy unit. Proto is a phase 2, Pennsy had phase 1. Difference being the cab length due to the seating arrangment. Is this not correct? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:14:15 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP30's On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, doloris mittner wrote: > Rob, > > I thought it was decided that everyone knew the PRR GP-30 was > going to be released. I believe the talk going around was that this > model will be wrong for a Pennsy unit. Proto is a phase 2, Pennsy had > phase 1. Difference being the cab length due to the seating arrangment. > Is this not correct? Gary This is not correct; Pennsy had phase 2 (like the P2K) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:46:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP30's In a message dated 3/19/99 10:56:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, robs@actel.com writes: > For everyone who was saying that Proto 2000 wasn't doing GP30's in PRR, > check out the announcement on the Proto 2000 web page. The second run will > have PRR in three numbers: (July delivery) > 23119 Pennsylvania Railroad #2203 > 23120 Pennsylvania Railroad #2240 > 23233 Pennsylvania Railroad #2234 > There's even a picture of a PRR one on their page... > http://www.proto2000.com/proto/GP30_2.htm > Well this would be wonderful if Life Like final paints them DGLE instead of green. Otherwise, the undec. are the way to go so why worry about decorated units with a grossly wrong color. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:46:14 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: [PRR] An item of interest This came from the Buffalo News from the other day Check out http://alcoman.railfan.net/rrxing.gif Sorta sez it all William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:05:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... Re: the GP-30s, previous post stated: "Otherwise, the undec. are the way to go so why worry about decorated units with a grossly wrong color." Does this apply to the LL P2K GP-7s as well? To my eyes, these DON'T look THAT BAD - yeah, a little greener than black, but with some grime and dust who is gonna tell the difference? "Grossly wrong" is, IMHO, a little harsh. I DID think the E-R Models RF-16s were a little TOO green, but that didn't stop me from buying a pair, and I'll be happy to run them on my layout (and anyone who nitpicks over their color is out the door, pronto). Unless you are retired, independently wealthy, or otherwise have a lot of time on your hands, there is not enough of it (time, that is) to do everything you might want in this hobby - you gotta pick and choose what is important to YOU. Maybe some guy would rather hand lay his turnouts than paint locos in exactly correct livery - does that mean that we blast the guy who puts down Shinohara track 'cause he'd rather detail freight cars or paint and decal undecorated locos? Regards, Mike Hagan Andover, MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:48:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... Marvin E. Crim writes: <> Don't knock it until you try it Marvin, it really rounds out the hobby. Forces you to research and really look at what you are modeling. It will also spill over onto your scenery and operation. I have been writing Pennsy modeling articles since 1989 and I thought perhaps someone was listening. I never criticize a modelers ability that is really striving for realism, and I will be the first to admit that nothing comes with out compromise. 3^) <> Marvin, you are right. As long as you do we may never get the manufacturers to correctly represent the railroad we here all love. Wrong is still wrong, and it takes as much money to make it wrong as it does to make it right, sometimes more if you are inclined to fix your mistakes. I have heard this so many times, I realize that there are Toy Train Railroaders and then Model Railroaders, I have nothing against either. But the gize out there that would like to have it right would only make it better for you, you should applaud them. 3^) Because Rich Orr wrote: << Well, this would be wonderful if Life Like final paints them DGLE instead of green. Otherwise, the undec. Are the way to go so why worry about decorated units with a grossly wrong color?>> I have to agree completely with Rich. As I have stated over and over again, you can buy an airbrush that has a spraying quality fine enough to spray any model railroad subject for under 10 bucks and less than that when the go ON SALE! The right color for DGLE is not an exact science, but we can all agree it is a black color with a tint of green (from copper salts/heavy metals). The addition of detail parts is up to the modeler, but with the level of detail coming out from the manufactures we need to add less and less, finally we are getting what we pay for. Guys like Rich Orr, Jim Six, my brother Ed Martin, and many others on this list who push the envelope in modeling are trying to achieve a better model from the manufactures for you the modeler. Rich was not criticizing the modeler but the manufacturer. Getting the color right should be an easy step compared to the rest of the R&D. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:30:52 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... Well, I guess that does it. If someone is not into detailing, painting, and decaling their own locomotives or having someone doing it for them, there's no choice but to pass on this engine. What...??? Undecs are NOT the only way to go. You may rest assured that many will buy these off the shelf and enjoy the hobby and their favorite railroad as much...or more than anybody. Thank goodness we're all a little bit different. In fact, it will be "just wonderful" for some anyway. At least, there's another opinion. SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 3/19/99 10:56:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, robs@actel.com > writes: > > > For everyone who was saying that Proto 2000 wasn't doing GP30's in PRR, > > check out the announcement on the Proto 2000 web page. The second run will > > have PRR in three numbers: (July delivery) > > 23119 Pennsylvania Railroad #2203 > > 23120 Pennsylvania Railroad #2240 > > 23233 Pennsylvania Railroad #2234 > > There's even a picture of a PRR one on their page... > > http://www.proto2000.com/proto/GP30_2.htm > > > Well this would be wonderful if Life Like final paints them DGLE instead of > green. Otherwise, the undec. are the way to go so why worry about decorated > units with a grossly wrong color. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me buy what I prefer." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:37:02 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Spell "assume" for me... Be careful not to assume too much. You know how it's spelled. Don't assume I'm satisfied with the paint schemes, color selection, and numbering...along with models chosen for real railroads. The fact of the matter is I've read and listened quite extensively over the years...and they go well beyond the '80s...or the 70's...or the 60's...well, never mind. The fact of the matter is I've done my share of painting and renumbering along with detailing and arrived at the point that I was happy with what I had. The question does not beg for agreement. It is not one of taking sides. Is there room for all to be winners...? There is, of course. But don't assume that your idea and the ideas of another dozen or another hundred will find agreement on just what DGLE really looks like...no contest...no winners...lots of losers...and which of the many 'preferred' shades of DGLE would the manufacturer decide upon...? Who gets the final word...??? DGLE is not and can not be defined as one and the same for all...and never will be...and shouldn't be. If you don't like the color, buy the undecs. If someone wants to do otherwise, they will not undermine my enjoyment of the hobby. I'll just take it the way it comes to me...and enjoy it to the max. The best of luck with trying to force an issue with 'the manufacturers.' Have you ever tried to find the last digit of pi...? Or are you going to assume... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me color 'em the way I see 'em." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:27:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... In a message dated 3/20/99 12:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, Ljgurke@aol.com writes: << "Grossly wrong" is, IMHO, a little harsh. >> I think we should cut Rich Orr a little slack here. I suspect he is suffering the same frustrations I do that, after almost a century of train modeling, manufacturers still can't get the color right on locomotives (or a lot of other roling stock) of what was at one time the largest railroad in the U.S. (in fact , at one time the largest corporation in the world). I have previously mentioned on this list that, though wrong, the DGLE of Proto2000 E7s under the room lighting I normally encounter in my running, is tolerable until I retire and do get the time to correct them. Why do I care at all? Well, now when I do a Miracle Castings BP20 or Erie- built, I have to make a decision: do I match the wrong color of Proto 2000 or do I pick a closer match to the prototype and then have two different shades of passenger locos in my fleet (freight locos pose less of a problem ,since I weather them more. I empathize and identify with all of you who are short of time. Run what you want. I do. Some of my early cars are the wrong "freight car color". Eventually I will upgrade them (or weather them 'til it doesn't matter :-)). In the meantime, I at least don't buy any more incorrectly painted for my era : I like the Bowser roundroofs, but have not bought any decorated versions. So far, I have only repainted and correctly striped and lettered one Bachmann passenger car, a diner, but what a difference! Inspires me to do more, even if it does take time I don't really have. Bob (If I look long enough at my retirement numbers maybe they will get better sooner) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:56:59 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] New plate and new ad: --------------C958517C7F05A6DC85212E5E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just got my new RR plate today. I was given the number 334, according to my stuff that makes me a B6sb. On another note, in the latest issue of Popular Photography, Kodak has a new add campaign that features all railroad related scenes. The shots are from Dan Winters ( won a lot of awards type photographer ). Does this mean that Railroad photography is finally getting national recognition!? cos wsbcos.com --------------C958517C7F05A6DC85212E5E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just got my new RR plate today.   I was given the number 334, according to my stuff that makes me a B6sb.

On another note, in the latest issue of Popular Photography, Kodak has a new add campaign that features all railroad related scenes.    The shots are from Dan Winters ( won a lot of awards type photographer ).  Does this mean that Railroad photography is finally getting national recognition!?

cos
wsbcos.com --------------C958517C7F05A6DC85212E5E-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:32:26 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Station Signs Does anyone have PRR standard drawings of the station signs with the Keystone in it? Thanks Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:32:22 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: [PRR] L2s Info. Wanted Greetings, I've read a couple of postings over the last couple of days dealing with the dates when steam locos (and electrics) began to appear in DGLE, and also when they stopped getting red (oxide?) cab roofs and tender decks. I have an HO USRA light 2-8-2 that I'd like to modify to look like one of the five L2s class Mikes the PRR had (#9627-9631) that worked the GR&I district. What I need to know, if anyone has the information, is this: 1. Were these locos delivered in black paint or DGLE? 2. If they were delivered in black paint, were they ever repainted DGLE? If so, when? 3. Did they ever have oxide cab roofs and tender decks? If so, over what time frame? 4. What color was the field in the round number plate on the smokebox: black or toludine red? 5. Since other locos of the era were lettered in gold, were these also? 6. What lettering would have appeared on the rear end of the tender? Sure hope somebody out there can help. The text of PENNSY POWER (1) doesn't mention any of this information and the only photos I can find are B/W side shots or 3/4 views from the front. TIA for any help. Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:26:43 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR stuff for sale. I have a number of items for sale on ebay including a K5, Bachman and IHC passenger cars in PRR. Pictures are available by email. Thanks. PRR on ebay or http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=paintloco@aol.com Don Murphy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR FAs From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:10:13 EST Can anybody give me an idea of when and where Alco FA/Fbs appeared on the PRR. Thanks Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:09:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR HO BRASS ND CABIN Hello List, (or to the certain members here who care to read this) Several months ago I reported on this list that a new HO Scale Brass PRR ND Cabin was in the works. I just recieved an email from the owner of the company letting me know the Cabin Cars are in. He has returned from the Far East with items in tow. Back in February he told me they were producing just 40 of these cars with 30 having been spoken for. If you are interested in these it would be wise to email and place your order. All may not have been claimed yet. Price is $59.95. YES $59.95!!! Plus $6.00 shipping. Email them at richang@hkstar.com The company address is: The Brass Works P.O Box Voorhees, NJ. 08043 .........Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charles E. Whary" Subject: [PRR] PRR HO Brass Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:43:04 -0500 People, I know that this is not the place for sale items. However, do to personnel reasons, I would like to offer first to the people on this list the collection that I have acquired. Anyone interested please E-mail me (cwhary@paonline.com) and I will forward to you a list. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR GP30's Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:23:11 -0500 Derrick, Thanks for answering this before I did. I checked the Wither's PRR EMD diesel road switchers book and the PRR units are definitely phase 2. I don't think the PRR had any phase one units. By the way, the Bachman units are also phase 2. Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Derrick J > Brashear > Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 12:14 AM > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP30's > > > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, doloris mittner wrote: > > > Rob, > > > > I thought it was decided that everyone knew the PRR GP-30 was > > going to be released. I believe the talk going around was that this > > model will be wrong for a Pennsy unit. Proto is a phase 2, Pennsy had > > phase 1. Difference being the cab length due to the seating arrangment. > > Is this not correct? Gary > > This is not correct; Pennsy had phase 2 (like the P2K) > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Station Signs Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:17:07 -0500 I believe that the PRR MOW Plan Book (not sure of the exact title, it's at home) published some time ago by the Builders Compendium and subsequently by Boynton Associates has the diagrams. Hope this helps. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: CENTGA@aol.com To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 11:41 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Station Signs >Does anyone have PRR standard drawings of the station signs with the Keystone >in it? Thanks Todd Horton > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:34:13 -0500 From: Danny Seymour Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Station Signs Todd, I have made an Autocad font from the PRR Maintenance Handbook and have also drawn the signs. What format are you looking for in the drawings? Dan Seymour > > Does anyone have PRR standard drawings of the station signs with the Keystone in it? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:23:24 -0500 I'll proabaly just get the PRR painted units. Eventually they'll probably get repainted into a better shade but their paint jobs look nice enough until I have the time! I've found it to be easy to start with PRR painted engines, remove the lettering and paint over the original DGLE paint (except for when major body surgery is required or the factory paint is real thick, lumpy etc...) The added benefit of this is that when the paint flakes off the Life Like detail parts, at least they're almost the right color! Does anyone have a good way to get paint to stick well to their detail parts? (I really with P2K would also sell undecorated units molded in black!) Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > Bobspf@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 4:28 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... > > > In a message dated 3/20/99 12:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, > Ljgurke@aol.com > writes: > > << "Grossly wrong" is, IMHO, a little harsh. >> > > I think we should cut Rich Orr a little slack here. I suspect he > is suffering > the same frustrations I do that, after almost a century of train modeling, > manufacturers still can't get the color right on locomotives (or a lot of > other roling stock) of what was at one time the largest railroad > in the U.S. > (in fact , at one time the largest corporation in the world). > > I have previously mentioned on this list that, though wrong, the DGLE of > Proto2000 E7s under the room lighting I normally encounter in my > running, is > tolerable until I retire and do get the time to correct them. > > Why do I care at all? Well, now when I do a Miracle Castings > BP20 or Erie- > built, I have to make a decision: do I match the wrong color of > Proto 2000 or > do I pick a closer match to the prototype and then have two > different shades > of passenger locos in my fleet (freight locos pose less of a > problem ,since I > weather them more. > > I empathize and identify with all of you who are short of time. > Run what you > want. I do. > Some of my early cars are the wrong "freight car color". > Eventually I will > upgrade them (or weather them 'til it doesn't matter :-)). In > the meantime, I > at least don't buy any more incorrectly painted for my era : I like the > Bowser roundroofs, but have not bought any decorated versions. > So far, I have only repainted and correctly striped and lettered > one Bachmann > passenger car, a diner, but what a difference! Inspires me to do > more, even if > it does take time I don't really have. > > Bob (If I look long enough at my retirement numbers maybe they > will get better > sooner) Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:44:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] L2s Info. Wanted In a message dated 3/21/99 12:44:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: > > 1. Were these locos delivered in black paint or DGLE? Don't have this info > 2. If they were delivered in black paint, were they ever repainted > DGLE? If so, when? It would be my opinion that they would have been DGLE at a minimum after the consolidation of the operating units as the PRR painting instructions applied to all locos then. Repainting would have occurred when the name on the locos were changed from GR&I to PRR. > 3. Did they ever have oxide cab roofs and tender decks? If so, over > what time frame? See 2 above again my best guesstimate. > 4. What color was the field in the round number plate on the smokebox: > black or toludine red? black with gold lettering > 5. Since other locos of the era were lettered in gold, were these also? when relettered to PRR would be gold. > 6. What lettering would have appeared on the rear end of the tender? > tender class, capacity water in gallons coal in tons. tender number. This seems to have varied. Some photos I have only show the tender number others have the above information on a "trust plate" like plate and others are stenciled. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:22:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... In a message dated 3/21/99 9:45:51 AM Central Standard Time, robs@actel.com writes: << Does anyone have a good way to get paint to stick well to their detail parts? (I really with P2K would also sell undecorated units molded in black!) >> On the MEMRA list I asked this question and a couple people suggested going to the model aircraft section of your hobby shop for paint. Apparently that hobby uses those engineering plastics to a great extent and they have paints which stick. Would have to blend to get DGLE,but even plain black on some details beats gray and I am sure they have a safety yellow which could be used for handrails. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:13:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR FAs Fred, The ALCo FA/B-1's (AF-15) arrived on the property in August of 1948 and can be represented with the Walthers models. The ALCo FA/B-2's arrived on the property in two groups starting in 1951. The units numbered 9608 to 9619 were FA/B-2 phase I and units numbered 9620 to 9631 were FA/B-2 phase II. Like the RS-3 the car body louvers at the battery boxes changes direction, vertical then later horizontal. The Life Like models were phase II units and after upgraded with paint and details added they are better than brass. I even like the idea of the operating fan. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:46:58 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR FAs Howdy Fred: The PRR had both the Alco FA1 and the FA2. Alco model FA1, original PRR class AF4, final class AF15, bought in two groups: 9600 to 9603 (FA1) builders numbers 75987-75990 built 7-8/48 9600B to 9603B (FB1) builders numbers 76038 - 76041 built 7-8/48 9604 to 9607 (FA1) builder numbers 77010 - 77013 built 3/50 9604B to 9607B (FB1) builder numbers 76893 - 76896 built 3/50 All retired in/by 1965 Alco model FA2, original PRR class AF3a, final class AF16, built in three groups: 9608 to 9619 (FA2) builder numbers 78640 - 78651 built 5/51 9608B to 9618B (FB2) even # only, builder numbers 78664 - 78669 5/51 9620 to 9631 (FA2) builder numbers 79435 - 79446 11-12/51 9620B to 9628B (FB2) even # only, builder numbers 79487 - 79491 11-12/51 9630B (FB2) builder number 79747 built 12-51 All retired by 1/1/67 - No PRR FA(B)1 or FA(B)2 included in PC. 5 FA1 (1 NYC + 4 NH) made it to PC 3 FB1 (NH) made it to PC 80 FA2 (NYC) made it to PC 55 FB2 ( 50 NYC + 5 NH) made it to PC >From what I can tell - they were all delivered in DGLE single strip. Cos wsbcos.com Fred G Rea wrote: > Can anybody give me an idea of when and where Alco FA/Fbs appeared on the > PRR. > > Thanks > > Fred Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:36:19 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Book- A Pictorial History by Alexander I have for sale a mint condition copy of th PRR book- The Pennsylvania Railroad A Pictorial History by Edwin Alexander. The dust jacket is perfect and the book appears to be virtually unused. Chapters: Origin and Development of the PRR Building of the PRR Passenger Service Freight Service, Shops and Marine Operations Locomotive Developments Electrification Some Incidents of PRR History- Pittsburgh Riots, Johnstown Flood, Ohio Floods, Broad Street Station Fire, PRR versus Snow 248 pages with hundreds of great photos. 1st edition 1957 $25 postpaid in the US, more if outside the US Thanks for reading. First E Mail gets it. ENJOY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:38:07 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR FAs Hi Fred, All, >From PP2: "ALCO FA1/FB1 Originally Class AF4, Later Class AF15 Nos. 9600A-9607A (Cab) Nos. 9600B-9607B (Booster) Built 1948, 1950. All retired in 1965." "ALCO FA2/FB2 Originally Class AF3a, Later Class AF16 Nos. 9608A-9631A (Cab) Nos. 9608B-9630B (Booster, even nos. only) Built 1951. All retired by 1/1/67." Someone else will have to help with their original assignments as PP2 doesn't mention that though it does show pics of them at: "Blasdell, N.Y. enroute from Buffalo to Oil City and Conway. Horseshoe Curve westbound. Duncannon nearing Enola. East of Pitcairn in helper service." Hope this helps, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Thanks for all the FA info From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:52:10 EST Thanks to all who answered my Alco FA inquiry. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:53:57 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Trains into north end, Chicago Union Station RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > For a while now, we have been kicking around the question of whether Panhandle > passenger trains used the north end of Chicago Union Station with the > Milwaukee Road > June 1st 1926 PRR Time Table shows a sizeable number of trains > converging on Chicago via Englewood from Panhandle points like > Cincinnati, Richmond, Louisville, and Logansport. However, the "Columbus and Chicago" page (Table 42) also shows #431, a daily 6:30 am train from Logansport, running via Bernice-Globe-Dolton-Riverdale-West Pullman-Washington Heights- > West Madison Street-Chicago with arrival at 10:40 am. #430 goes back out via the same route at 2:30 pm, arriving at 6:30 PM. Greetings to Rick and the List: Checked my 2 January 1929 issue of Form 1 (the same timetable you cited with a date of 1 June 1926) and found that those trains, 430 and 431, continued to run but were rerouted via South Chicago and Englewood. This meant that they followed the PRR's South Chicago & Southern some or all of the way to get to the PFtW&C. Do not have 1927 or 1928 copies of Form 1 to more narrowly define when the rerouting occurred. BTW, last time I was in Chicago, the signals just northwest of CUS were still position-light style, even mounted on new masts. And there was a Panhandle freight house (long converted to some other use) still standing on the north side of the tracks, with a cast-concrete "Pennsylvania Lines" marker in its eastern end wall. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com 1 Cor. 1:7-10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:27:45 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [NYC-Railroad] Commuting to Williamsport PA PRR Passenger trains served Jersey Shore directly through the end of passenger service. The NYC junction was west of Jersey Shore at McElhattan. The PRR maintained a combined passenger and freight station in Jersey Shore. None of the records which I have show any running rights for the NYC into the PRR station in Williamsport nor any PRR rights into a NYC station in Jersey Shore. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:25:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Commuting to Williamsport PA From: Roy K Breon Here's a question that pertains to both lists. My parents grew up in Jersey Shore PA on the NYC. It was a small town about 14 miles west of Williamsport PA. Railroads serving Williamsport were the Reading and the Pennsylvania. There was yard called the Newberry Yard about three miles west of Williamsport. The NYC came east as far as Newberry but to my knowledge had no passenger station in Williamsport. The Pennsy and Reading went west as far as Newberry and both had passenger stations in Williamsport, and maybe Newberry. My Mother remembers people commuting by train from the NYC station in Jersey Shore to Williamsport. How was this done? Did the NYC have some trackage rights into Williamsport or did the Pennsy have rights to Jersey Shore on the NYC. I know that the Pennsy had a station at Anes Fort which was on the Pennsy line to Renovo but that ran outside of Jersey Shore on the south side of the Susquehanna. She remembers the train arriving at the NYC station from Williamsport every day about 6 PM with workers from Williamsport. Were talking about the late 1920's here. Can anyone help? Roy Breon Pittsford NY ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:25:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Williamsport PA Stations From: Roy K Breon There were at least two PRR stations in Williamsport PA. One was at the Campbell Street crossing near the Park Hotel and was built about 1870, I think. It was the main station, built of brick, and was in continual use until it burned about 1985 although passenger trains had stopped running much earlier. It contained offices. The other station was at the Market Street crossing in the main part of town. I have a picture of it being in existence in 1911. It appears to be a smaller and older station. It was a one story wooden building in typical small RR station style for that era. I know that it was gone by 1942. Can anyone tell me when it was built and when it was torn down, burned, or whatever? Roy Breon Pittsford, NY ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP30's Date: Sun, 21 Mar 99 21:06:51 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/19/99 9:25 PM, Robert Schoenberg (robs@actel.com) wrote: >For everyone who was saying that Proto 2000 wasn't doing GP30's in PRR, >check out the announcement on the Proto 2000 web page. The second run will >have PRR in three numbers: (July delivery) >23119 Pennsylvania Railroad #2203 >23120 Pennsylvania Railroad #2240 >23233 Pennsylvania Railroad #2234 >There's even a picture of a PRR one on their page... >http://www.proto2000.com/proto/GP30_2.htm For those who want the news even sooner...I announced this on the "Merchandise Service" announcement list about a week and a half ago. Am accepting advance reservations. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com to subscribe to this announcement list. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:28:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Commuting to Williamsport PA From: Roy K Breon Rich -- Thanks for your response, but I'm a bit confused. McElhattan is west of Jersey Shore, maybe 8 miles, as you say. But, Williamsport is 15 miles to the east of Jersey Shore, in the opposite direction. My atlases show a possible NYC/PRR interchange at McElhattan but only NYC tracks into Jersey Shore. NYC tracks headed from Jersey Shore east to Williamsport, west to McElhattan/Beech Creek, and north up Pine Creek to NY. The PRR Jersey Shore station was actually in Anes Fort across the river and about three miles from Jersey Shore. That station may have read "Jersey Shore" on the time tables but is not the station to which Mother is referring which is within Jersey Shore. She says it was definitely a NYC station and she remembers the women office workers arriving there about six PM every day. It might be possible that they took a PRR train out of Williamsport past Jersey Shore to McElhattan and then doubled back on the NYC from McElhattan to Jersey Shore. Was there a station at McElhattan or was that just an interchange? Another possibility was that they took the PRR to Newberry and got on a NYC train at Newberry. However, I'm not sure that the NYC had a passenger station in Newberry. Obviously, I don't know details but am interested. Still a mystery! How did they get from Williamsport to Jersey Shore? Roy Breon On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:27:45 EST SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: >From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > >PRR Passenger trains served Jersey Shore directly through the end of >passenger >service. The NYC junction was west of Jersey Shore at McElhattan. >The PRR >maintained a combined passenger and freight station in Jersey Shore. >None of >the records which I have show any running rights for the NYC into the >PRR >station in Williamsport nor any PRR rights into a NYC station in >Jersey Shore. > >Rich Orr > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard McCarty" Subject: [PRR] re: Williamsport PA Stations Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:18:58 -0500 I am a newbie sending his first post. I just talked with my father in Williamsport (in his 80's). He says he recalls a freight station along with a passenger station at Market Street. He is pretty sure they were separate buildings. He also was pretty sure the station was torn down, it definitely didn't burn. As an aside, he said it was possible to hop the train at Campbell Street station and ride to Market Street to go downtown and get off before the conductor came around. Apparently a regular mode of travel for the kids in the west end of Williamsport. Richard McCarty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 06:32:37 -0500 From: Jerry Was out visiting friends in P-burgh this past weekend and we made it downtown. In follow up thereafter, I took a look at the "Golden Triangle" books by the PRRT&HS. I guess I always thought the PRR mains came from the east along the Monongehela River. However, the maps indicate this is mostly B&O trackage and the PRR came in along the Allegheny. Hey, always learning something new! Question: Is the "Panhandle Bridge" the one still in use today by the "T"...the subway system? In looking at the map in the book, and the one photo, it appears to be. That would allow it's trains to stop at the station area now known as Station Square. I know the P&LE had a station there...and there was another line a bit higher up the hill (don't have the map in front of me). Was this a sort of "union station"? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:04:50 -0500 The bridge that the light rail uses is the old PRR bridge used by passenger trains to St. Louis. They would take the higher tracks by the Station Square complex. The P&LE Station was not a true Union Station. the B&O did use it through trackage rights for their through East-West trains. Both the B&O Station (used for commuters / PAT trains) and Pennsylvania Station were in the Golden Triangle. Hope this help. Another list member will probably be able to supply more detailed info. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 8:46 AM Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh >Was out visiting friends in P-burgh this past weekend and we made it >downtown. In follow up thereafter, I took a look at the "Golden Triangle" >books by the PRRT&HS. I guess I always thought the PRR mains came from >the east along the Monongehela River. However, the maps indicate this is >mostly B&O trackage and the PRR came in along the Allegheny. Hey, always >learning something new! > >Question: Is the "Panhandle Bridge" the one still in use today by the >"T"...the subway system? In looking at the map in the book, and the one >photo, it appears to be. That would allow it's trains to stop at the >station area now known as Station Square. I know the P&LE had a station >there...and there was another line a bit higher up the hill (don't have >the map in front of me). Was this a sort of "union station"? > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com >"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com >----------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:47:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Jerry, Hello, I ride the T-system everytime I go to Pittsburgh, (Dormont-A.B Charles Hobby Shop). That Panhandle Bridge is the one used by the Light Rail Trains. Underneath the City is 3 stops and the T's come back out, cross the bridge, stops at Station Square and continues through the tunnel towards the South Hills section. It takes about 40 minutes to ride the sytem oneway. The P&LE station was the home of the P&LE offices. Their trains used it and my guess (NOT SURE) is that the Erie RR stopped for letting off passengers only. I think my Dad once told me he saw B&O's and NYC on that line too but I don't know if they were allowed to do passenger loading either. So more or less I suppose this was not a UNION Station. Just a P&LE station that gave certian operating rights to the other RR's that came through. The other line that shoots off to the left (Mon Div) on the PanHandle Bridge is now used for the T-system to reach the Allentown section of the city. Never rode it but I believe it connects to the T's main line at South Hills Junction. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:29:08 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Jerry wrote: > Question: Is the "Panhandle Bridge" the one still in use today by the > "T"...the subway system? Yes. And you meant to say "subway system" (include the derision quotes; It's all of 3 stops underground, just under downtown. The rest is (mostly) revamped lines of the former Pittsburgh Railways streetcar network. > In looking at the map in the book, and the one > photo, it appears to be. That would allow it's trains to stop at the > station area now known as Station Square. I know the P&LE had a station > there...and there was another line a bit higher up the hill (don't have > the map in front of me). Was this a sort of "union station"? To the best of my knowledge, no, it was only a commuter stop, but I'd be someone (Rich Orr?) knows better. There was also a commuter stop further out West Carson (the street behind Station Square when looking from downtown, parallel to the river) near West End Circle, on the shelf... Doesn't one of the books have a map covering that area? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: [PRR] GP-9B Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:20:06 -0600 High Tech Details has a kit for converting a Proto 2000 GP-9 to a GP-9B. The kit replaces the cab and retails for $ 6.95. My question is did the PRR GP-9B's have dynamic brakes or not (thus which P2K version to start with)? TIA for any info. Bill Laird ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:53:44 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-9B Hi Bill, Can't provide a definitive answer but PP2 shows No. 7198B with dynamics. It doesn't provide any info, re: dynamics, in the caption. It gives two number series: 7175-7204B 7230-7239B PRR Class-EFS17m. built 1957, 1959. Personally I don't believe that I've ever seen a pic of a GP9B without dynamics but that proves nothing. Later, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:09:59 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Re: [NYC-Railroad] Commuting to Williamsport PA Greetings to Roy and the group, I'll try to do some checking for more information but here are some ideas. As has been mentioned, the PRR 'Jersey Shore' station was in Antes Fort. To my knowledge the PRR didn't have trackage rights on the NYC into Jersey Shore. I tend to doubt that the NYC would run to McElhattan to exchange passengers with the PRR there. Yes, there was a PRR station at McElhattan. It was located just west of the present PRR/Conrail grade crossing there. It lasted into the very early 1960s. The NYC had its own station in (near) McElhattan at Youngdale. It was located where what the locals call the Castanea Road crosses the old NYC in Youngdale. (Folks from Youngdale do not acknowledge they live in McElhattan and vise versa. Both are just villiages like Pine Station where I grew up in Wayne Township and both Youngdale and McElhattan are located.) There was trolley service to Antes Fort from Jersey Shore. Nippinoise Park (sp?) was also located in Antes Fort and was a very popular place during the early part of this century. Might this be the way your parents commuted to Williamsport; trolley to Antes Fort, PRR to Williamsport? The other item to look at is if to see if the NYC had its own station at Newberry (not to my knowledge) or they shared the Reading's station wich was in the Newberry part of Williamsport (my feeling is that is a possibility). I think the Reading had another station in downtown Williamsport too. If my memory serves me correctly, it too was on Market Street but near the River. Again, I'll get back to the group with what details I can dig up The PRR Market Street station did preceed the Park Place station. There is a photo of the Market Street station in Alexander's book "Along the Main Line" I believe. The Market Street station and the Park Place go back to the P&E era. The Market Street may have been built by the railroad that became the PRR Elmira Branch. I need to check for details on this. Park Place station was built by the P&E. I'll check Rosenberger's book on the P&E to see what information he may provide on the Market Street station The PRR Park Place station did burn in the mid 1980s. I have clippings from one of the Williamsport papers of the fire. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 07:25 PM 3/21/99 -0500, Roy K Breon wrote: >From: Roy K Breon > >Here's a question that pertains to both lists. My parents grew up in >Jersey Shore PA on the NYC. It was a small town about 14 miles west of >Williamsport PA. Railroads serving Williamsport were the Reading and the >Pennsylvania. There was yard called the Newberry Yard about three miles >west of Williamsport. The NYC came east as far as Newberry but to my >knowledge had no passenger station in Williamsport. The Pennsy and >Reading went west as far as Newberry and both had passenger stations in >Williamsport, and maybe Newberry. My Mother remembers people commuting >by train from the NYC station in Jersey Shore to Williamsport. How was >this done? Did the NYC have some trackage rights into Williamsport or >did the Pennsy have rights to Jersey Shore on the NYC. I know that the >Pennsy had a station at Anes Fort which was on the Pennsy line to Renovo >but that ran outside of Jersey Shore on the south side of the >Susquehanna. She remembers the train arriving at the NYC station from >Williamsport every day about 6 PM with workers from Williamsport. Were >talking about the late 1920's here. Can anyone help? > >Roy Breon >Pittsford NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:52:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh In a message dated 3/22/99 8:43:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Question: Is the "Panhandle Bridge" the one still in use today by the "T"...the subway system? In looking at the map in the book, and the one photo, it appears to be. That would allow it's trains to stop at the station area now known as Station Square. I know the P&LE had a station there...and there was another line a bit higher up the hill (don't have the map in front of me). Was this a sort of "union station"? >> Jerry, the bridge current used by the Port Authority of Allegheny County for the LRV, the "T" is indeed the Panhandle bridge. The PRR was the tracks up along the hillside. Pennsy never used the P&LE (NYC system) station. It was used by P&LE and the B&O (through passenger trains only). The PRR had several small commuter stops along the tracks on the hillside. There was a wye at the western end of the bridge the tracks to the east (south) were the Monongahela Division and those to the west (north) the Panhandle Division. Conrail (NS) still operate these tracks today. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Carey Subject: [PRR] Wall Street Journal Article Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:45:49 -0700 The March 22nd edition of the Wall Street Journal has a delightful article about spending the night at the Station Inn in Cresson and falling asleep to the gentle murmur of diesel engines. Dave Carey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:03:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh In a message dated 3/22/99 10:35:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << The P&LE station was the home of the P&LE offices. Their trains used it and my guess (NOT SURE) is that the Erie RR stopped for letting off passengers only. I think my Dad once told me he saw B&O's and NYC on that line too but I don't know if they were allowed to do passenger loading either. >> The Erie never served Pittsburgh. The P&LE was part of the NYC System and liberally used NYC system pool passenger cars. Interchanged Erie passenger cars could occassionally be seen at the P&LE station. The B&O did use the station for through passenger trains only. All commuter trains and trains terminating in Pittsburgh used the B&O station (first on Water street until 1953 and then on Grant St.) The P&LE became a stand alone rr as part of the PC merger to assure "competition" for service in Pittsburgh. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:05:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-9B In a message dated 3/22/99 10:33:55 AM Central Standard Time, Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com writes: << My question is did the PRR GP-9B's have dynamic brakes or not (thus which P2K version to start with)? >> Had them. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:51:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... so to many people who don' know better they think it looks nice. Remember model railroading is fun. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:26:51 -0500 (EST) > Was out visiting friends in P-burgh this past weekend and we made it > downtown. In follow up thereafter, I took a look at the "Golden Triangle" > books by the PRRT&HS. I guess I always thought the PRR mains came from > the east along the Monongehela River. However, the maps indicate this is > mostly B&O trackage and the PRR came in along the Allegheny. Hey, always > learning something new! Jerry, check out the first of the 2 Pittsburgh books given out at the recent meetings: _Pennsy in the Steel City_, if I remember right. That book states that the PRR chose to follow a former Mon. River riverbed when, west of Turtle Creek, PRR turned north-ish. (PRR then turns west by south near Penn Ave, continuing in that direction all the way to the station.) > Question: Is the "Panhandle Bridge" the one still in use today by the > "T"...the subway system? In looking at the map in the book, and the one > photo, it appears to be. That would allow it's trains to stop at the > station area now known as Station Square. I know the P&LE had a station > there...and there was another line a bit higher up the hill (don't have > the map in front of me). Was this a sort of "union station"? A little hard to answer specifically, given your description. Again, consult the maps that came with the Pgh books, and if you didn't get them before, get them now. PRR Panhandle never, to my knowledge, hooked up with P&LE in the vicinity of Station Square. Yes, that's the ex-PLE station. The line "up the hill" is probably the Mon. Line, or Mon. Division main line, or whatever you want to call it, depending on the year in question. :-) The Panhandle main joins the Mon Line for a stretch. I'm saying "joins" colloquially: it runs along- side it. This line is _parallel_ to the bluff. _Perpendicular_ to the blulff, there is a cemented-over tunnel portal which was the P&WV. Hard to see. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:23:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Rich, Are you 100% positive the Erie did not get into Pittsburghs P&LE station. I remember my dad saying when he was growing up in the Beaver Valley he would see the Big Erie K-5 Pacifics heading South to Pittsburgh from the Youngstown line. He said they used to stop at the Beaver Falls- College Station for unloading only and continue on. I must admit he was no expert on schedules and the like but he knew what the Erie K-5's were! Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:46:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-9B In a message dated 3/22/99 12:20:53 PM Central Standard Time, rond@efn.org writes: << Personally I don't believe that I've ever seen a pic of a GP9B without dynamics but that proves nothing. >> I believe that after the first GP7s, Pennsy adopted dynamic brakes on the rest of the GP series, including later GP7s and all GP9s and GP9Bs, but stand open to correction on that. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:02:47 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh > _Perpendicular_ to the bluff, there is a cemented-over tunnel portal which > was the P&WV. Hard to see. That tunnel, and the bridge piers in the Monongahela River, were always referred to as the Wabash tunnel and piers 'cause the Wabash built them. When I was a kid, there was an area in Pittsburgh (where was it - the PPG buliding area?) delimited off by short, but large, columns linked by heavy chains. This marked the location of the Wabash terminal that burned down. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:49:55 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh > _Perpendicular_ to the bluff, there is a cemented-over tunnel portal which > was the P&WV. Hard to see. Actually, "the bluff" is where Duquesne University is; The tunnel runs through Mt. Washington. To tie it back in with the PRR, Pennroad had an interest in the P&WV in the 30's. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:46:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-9B The GP9-B's also had the large fans as they were made after EMD switched from the small fans. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:26:08 EST Subject: [PRR] THE ELMIRA BRANCH My local hobby Shop is displaying a new soft cover copy of "The Elmira Branch" by Bill Calarosa -for $30.00 From comments on this list I had believed the book to be "out of print" If anyone is interested I will purchase it for them and send it along - I would ask an additional $5.00 to cover the sales tax, packaging and postage Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:24:30 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear scrivit: > > > _Perpendicular_ to the bluff, there is a cemented-over tunnel portal which > > was the P&WV. Hard to see. > > Actually, "the bluff" is where Duquesne University is; The tunnel runs through > Mt. Washington. To tie it back in with the PRR, Pennroad had an interest in the > P&WV in the 30's. I was using "bluff" in a general sense, not referring to any specific hillside, as your "the bluff" seems to suggest. But thanks for reminding me that the structure in question is called "Mt. Washington". Don't know why that slipped my mind. (Of course, hills and "mount"ains are scarce in Pittsburgh, the majority of the land being gulleys sculpted out of a plateau by the local rivers. Any of you local guys know for sure which of the "hills" are true hills, geologically? Squirrel Hill? Any others? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Elden.J.Gatwood@splmail01.spl.usace.army.mil Subject: [PRR] diesel want list Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:26:06 -0800 Hey, I never had any feedback as to the "diesel want-list" you guys (and many others) participated in a while back. I sent the results to Life-Like, Stewart, Kato, and others, and only got a call from Steve Stewart, who is very nice, and seemed genuinely interested. Anyway, the results: "What plastic diesel, HO, in state-of-the-art tooling/details, would you like to see made next? (Yes, descending order) FM Trainmaster (both phases) Baldwin Shark (no, not old MP tooling), both short-nose RF model and long-nose DR 4-4-1500 GE U-25C Alco RSD-7/15 Alco C-628 (Steve listens) FM H-16-44, Loewy Body! Alco RS-27 FM H-20-44 Alco C-420 ???(No, not the Rivarossi model) FM Erie-Built Baldwin VOs FM C-Liner GP-30 (Guess this is moot) DL-109 Baldwin Centipede Alco HH switchers Lima switcher Baldwin RT-624 Lima Transfer (Centercab) FM H-12-44 (short body) FM Baby TM (H-16-66) Baldwin DS switchers Alco T-6 NW-5 RS-32/36 RS-18 Lima RS I know the perception is that the manufacturers are rapidly running out of models to do, with few remaining diesels that were bought by more than a handful of roads, or in any real numbers. However, I think there are still profits to be made in the "obscure" diesel marketplace. Look how fast the FM Erie-Builts, C-Liners, Centipedes, and RT-624s are selling out in brass, even at those disgustingly high prices! A properly-made Trainmaster or Shark would be REALLY HOT. The ER Model's Sharks sold out before anyone knew what hit them, and that is not the greatest tooling or mechanism in the world! A good Loewy-Bodied H-16-44 (half-moon or straight-sided windows, 1st generation paint schemes, total Art Deco looks), with a vintage-style advertising campaign (Fairbanks-Morse... Opposed Piston Power....the weighing scale logo) would sell to enough people to make a profit. Lots of roads bought them, too. The variations would be neat, like an EMD retrofit for RI, Monon, and others. Who says there's nothing left to do! Write some letters! Be a pest! The squeaky wheel gets the Grease! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:57:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... In a message dated 3/22/99 3:05:45 PM Central Standard Time, Ogarasteam@aol.com writes: << so to many people who don' know better they think it looks nice. Remember model railroading is fun. >> Agreed on both counts. However,the correct paint and lettering scheme would also look nice to those less anal-retentive than guys like myself. So, for example, all those years when the only F7s we could get were in light green or tuscan with 5-stripe scheme those same resources could have been dedicated to doing one right and everyone could have been happy. BTW I haven't seen the new Proto2000 GP30 so I will not prejudge it. And,once again lets all have fun --I am mildly annoyed at the inaccuracies but life will go on. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:57:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Barry, Hi, again. You were clear about what you wrote. I mis-read it. Thanks for all the other info too. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:30:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh In a message dated 3/22/99 4:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: > > _Perpendicular_ to the bluff, there is a cemented-over tunnel portal which > > was the P&WV. Hard to see. > > Actually, "the bluff" is where Duquesne University is; The tunnel runs > through > Mt. Washington. To tie it back in with the PRR, Pennroad had an interest in > the > P&WV in the 30's. > Actually this is the Wabash Terminal Railroad (not to be confused with the Wabash RR) tunnel. Wabash Terminal was taken over by the P&WV. The PRR built the elevated tracks along the Allegheny River to block the eastward expansion of the Wabash Terminal. The bridge was abnormally high because the PRR had succeeded in having the PA legislature adopt a law requiring extremely high clearance under bridges which crossed it tracks and the rivers in Allegheny County. After the PRR bridges were built and grandfathered. At one time this tunnel was going to be used for rapid transit when the Skybus was under consideration. Following the scraping of the Skybus project the tunnel was used to store serviceable but retired buses -- a mothball site for old busses. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 -Reply -Reply Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:27:32 -0500 Hi John My father said that the train from Erie went as far as Emporium and stopped there. Turned around and went back. He does not believe that any cars were cut off and put on the Buffalo Harrisburg train. He remembers when they were being pulled by K-4's so that was in the 40's and 50's. They went completely over to diesel in that area around 1956 1957. I remember, I was sad when it happened and every time that I talked to my grandfather I asked it the steam engines were. So little did I know. Please keep in touch I will keep asking the questions. I am going to Renovo in June and maybe May. I will ask my uncle questions and a friend of the family that worked in the shops questions also. Wayne Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: John Griffin To: <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 8:53 AM Subject: [PRR] Trains 571-971 and 970-570 -Reply -Reply > Hi Wayne, > > Thanks for taking the time to ask your father about my enquiry. > Could you tell me what time period your father was familiar with (40's > or 50's). If it's the early 40's, then my suspicions about these trains is > way off base. If it's the late 40's or early 50's, then the trains may have > been rescheduled. I was referring to a 1943 TT. I'm trying to find a late > 40's /early 50's timetable that will show any schedule changes. Again, > thanks for the help. > > - John - > John Griffin > Senior IT Analyst > Computer Support Services > CAE Electronics Ltd > pho 514.341.2000 x3332 > fax 514.340.5583 > net griffin@cae.ca > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:41:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Gary, Afraid I didn't make myself too clear. I'm certain that Erie engines ran through to Pittsburgh and the schedualls were hot enough to make an engine change at youngstown highly unlikely. Seems the timetable only allowed about 2-3 minutes there, so I'm sure those K5's stayed on the point right on through. i think it's ironic that P&LE also used their own class K5 pacifics on these trains on a pool basis with Erie. Photos of Erie PA's running into Pittsburgh are also fairly common. If you'd like details, I still have a copy of Erie Power and some other literature around. Regards, Barry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 99 20:08:28 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Turning 2 Bachman Combines in to a baggage Fred: I was the culprit who wrote about cutting two Bachmann PB-70's in two in order to get a B-70. To answer your first question...I basically cut the entire PB-70 in half (roof assembled to the carbody). I slightly offset the cut by a few scale inches to clear a rivet panel; this panel line will help in concealing the body cut that butts up against it. Do you have the NJI book "Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Cars?" I am basing my kitbashing attempts on the B-70 photographs and drawings. They have a side shot of B-70 Number 6042 in Futura lettering. According to the drawing, the B-70 was approximately 4-5 feet (I don't have the exact dimension in front of me) shorter than the P-70. The end to end length of the B-70 is about 74 feet. In addition, the photo of No. 6042 reveals that the car was not symmetrical either. On one side it's center, the car body looked just like a PB-70. On the other side, the baggage door is positioned closer to the car end. Both the car length shortening and the baggage door relocation can be done simultaneously by cutting the body right at the outer edge of the baggage door frame. The body can be shortened and then butted up to the baggage door frame, hidding the cut. Sanding and putty will be needed on roof and the side panels just above the door (where "Pennsylvania" is postioned) Also, I believe that the trucks have to be shifted about a few feet outward to the end of the car. The photo of 6042 and the dimensions of the drawing indicate this. As far as trucks are concerned, you can either use the trucks that were equipped with the Bachmann PB-70's (I think they are called 3D-5P2's) or you can use the 3D-5P1's which are available from ECW in plastic for $5.00. Precision Scale also has a brass version of the 3D-5P1's for $22.50 (in stock at Walthers) I hope that this helps you. I think that amount of work is not too extensive and will result in a B-70 that is pretty close to the prototype. I am planning resuming work on my unit to see if I run into any "snags" contrary to what I wrote above. However, I am counting on ALLOT of styrene splicing on the inside walls to hold the thing together!! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] Turning 2 Bachman Combines in to a baggage Author: Fred G Rea at Internet Date: 3/22/99 2:51 PM A few days ago one or more of you corresponded re combining two Bachman combines into a full baggage. I did not pay much attention until I thought about it while looking at my combine I guess it produces an ersatz B70 and if you want another P70. I took the plunge and bought two more combines. Question: Did you use one of the un cut roof/window castings and fix up the rain gutters and ventilators, or just splice the roof castings too? Many years ago a friend of mine did this to an AHM combine. He wanted the baggage, I took the leftovers and, with the help of the end from an "Oscar", made a nice free lance, non PRR, heavy weight diner/lounge/solarium that I still run. We each used one full AHM roof/window casting. These Bachman left overs would produce a six axle P70. Any prototype for that? That raises another question. Did PRR own any solariums? I remember riding one Pittsburgh to Harrisburg in the early 40's with my parents. I was about 8 and was fascinated watching the next car rock back and forth. My guess was it was a Pullman club car. Fred Rea PS: I wonder if anyone remembers the Walthers Oscar. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:39:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuting to Williamsport PA From: Roy K Breon That may be. I don't know. But that would not really explain any Williamsport to Jersey Shore, or reverse, passenger train as I'm sure the PRR tracks didn't run thru Jersey Shore. Still a mystery. Roy Breon On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:29:15 -0800 "Greg Stone" writes: >I have been told that the NYC had trackage rights over the PRR >through >Renovo. I believe they came down from the north around Keating Summit. >I >recently purchased a photo showing a portion of the Renovo station >taken >from the top of NYC steam engine. So there must be some truth to this. >I >have been told this by more than one individual.. >Greg Stone >PRRT&HS member >Special interest in anything on Renovo >-----Original Message----- >From: Roy K Breon >To: NYC-Railroad@onelist.com ; >PRR-Talk@dsop.com > >Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 4:44 PM >Subject: [PRR] Commuting to Williamsport PA > > >>Here's a question that pertains to both lists. My parents grew up >in >>Jersey Shore PA on the NYC. It was a small town about 14 miles west >of >>Williamsport PA. Railroads serving Williamsport were the Reading and >the >>Pennsylvania. There was yard called the Newberry Yard about three >miles >>west of Williamsport. The NYC came east as far as Newberry but to >my >>knowledge had no passenger station in Williamsport. The Pennsy and >>Reading went west as far as Newberry and both had passenger stations >in >>Williamsport, and maybe Newberry. My Mother remembers people >commuting >>by train from the NYC station in Jersey Shore to Williamsport. How >was >>this done? Did the NYC have some trackage rights into Williamsport >or >>did the Pennsy have rights to Jersey Shore on the NYC. I know that >the >>Pennsy had a station at Anes Fort which was on the Pennsy line to >Renovo >>but that ran outside of Jersey Shore on the south side of the >>Susquehanna. She remembers the train arriving at the NYC station >from >>Williamsport every day about 6 PM with workers from Williamsport. >Were >>talking about the late 1920's here. Can anyone help? >> >>Roy Breon >>Pittsford NY >>___________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this >list. >>Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at >http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:27:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Thanks Barry, Yeah that clears up alot. But my Dad remembers seeing Erie K-5's. He past away 3 years ago so I can't get his story he always told me about. Is it possible those trains you mentioned were hauled by the Erie Locos at times? I used to have the Book ERIE POWER by Staufer, I sold it on ebay, I think there maybe a picture of an Erie K5 passing through the lower end of Beaver Falls, PA. (30 miles west of Pitt) heading back to Youngstown. If it isn't that book I don't know which it could have been. It may also be possible that my Dad confused those high mounted Feedwater Heaters the Erie K5's had with something else, l doubt it though because he specificly mentioned the ERIE. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:15:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh In a message dated 3/22/99 5:18:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > > _Perpendicular_ to the bluff, there is a cemented-over tunnel portal which > > was the P&WV. Hard to see. > > That tunnel, and the bridge piers in the Monongahela River, were always > referred > to as the Wabash tunnel and piers 'cause the Wabash built them. When I was > a > kid, there was an area in Pittsburgh (where was it - the PPG buliding area?) > > delimited off by short, but large, columns linked by heavy chains. This > marked > the location of the Wabash terminal that burned down. > IIRC, the Pittsburgh terminal project was called the Wabash-Pittsburgh Terminal. Check John Rehor's The Nickel Plate Story (Pub. by Kalmbach) for the full skinny on this and how it contributed to the financial collapse of George Gould's railroad empire (W-PT, P&WV?, Wabash, M.P., D&RGW, WP). The W-PT freight house is also mentioned in John Droege's Freight Terminals and Trains. Sounds like it was 4? stories tall, with the carloading doors on an upper floor. Thanks for the physical description -- I've seen the bridge piers and always wanted to know more about this. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:12:34 -0500 From: Danny Seymour Subject: [PRR] K4 Lights I have K4 #1188 that has an extra light mounted just below the headlight. Does anyone know what color this light should be? Or what it is for? Otherwise it is going to be clear and always on. Thanks, Dan Seymour, Wall Scale Trains, LLC http://www.wallscaletrains.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:01:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Gary, As regards the Erie in pittsburgh, well, that didn't happen the way it appeared. I think the Erie engines your dad spotted were running through on the joint Erie-P&LE Cleveland to Pittsburgh trains, such as the Morning and evening Steel Kings, as well as others. One of these trains, in fact was an Erie-P&LE-B&O operation with through cars running all the way from Cleveland to Washington . (On the B&O this train was the Washingtonian, #'s 21 and 22). Tapes of the B&O from the 1950's often show this train carrying either an Erie or P&LE (NYC System) coach east of Pittsburgh. The Erie itself came as close to Pittsburgh as Youngstown, where they had a joint depot with the P&LE (or rather an Erie station used by some P&LE trains). I know in diesil days Erie PA's sometimes wandered through to the steel city, and possibly E8's as well. Hope this helps. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:06:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Rich, The Erie RR did indeed have locos of the Class K5 series. These were also Pacific class engines. They were right around the same tracive effort (44,000+), as the Pennsy K4s Pacifics. Real Handsome too with the Feedwater sitting high on the smoke box. Look one up and I think you will agree. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:50:53 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh and all related posts Greetings to Jerry and the List! Everyone has pretty well covered the waterfront on the Panhandle Bridge and where things were in Pittsburgh. Just thought I'd add a couple details. Jerry, the reason you may have thought P&LE station was a "union" station is that the "T" right-of-way does NOT follow original PRR right-of-way once it reaches the south bank of the Monongahela. Its alignment diverts from the original PRR alignment in such a way that it descends to Carson Street level in order to make the turn into the Mount Washington trolley tunnel, but PRR never did so. As already noted by several list members, the original PRR Monongahela Division/Panhandle Division line occupies the shelf along the side of Mount Washington, above Carson Street. Regarding P&LE Station (actually, it was called P&LE Terminal, even though only *some* of its tracks were stub-end): B&O through east-midwest passenger trains began using the station in the 1930s as a time-saving alternative to pulling in and backing out of B&O's own stub-end station across the river, then following B&O's own route through the Pittsburgh area -- along the twisting, winding, hilly P&W Subdivision through Panther Hollow Tunnel, Etna, Millvale, Allison Park, Bakerstown (west end of a helper district, another congestion-generating operating practice), Mars, Eidenau, and Zelienople, to New Castle, then Youngstown. Ironically, although B&O passenger trains over the P&W Subdivision to Butler (and at one time, Rochester and Buffalo, N.Y., via the old BR&P) stopped running about 1953-54, Amtrak routed the Broadway Limited over the P&W after it abandoned PRR's PFtW&C route to Chicago in favor of the CSX ex-B&O route, and until a connection could be completed between the former PRR Erie & Ashtabula Division at New Brighton and CSX (ex-B&O) near Ellwood City. B&O through freights also began using the 60-some-mile trackage-rights arrangement (McKeesport to New Castle) at some point also, perhaps at the same time. Periodically, P&LE would threaten to cancel the trackage-rights agreement at contract-renewal time unless B&O coughed up more money, especially since in later years, more and heavier B&O trains used the P&LE than those of P&LE itself. This always resulted in a round of bluffing and puffing, in which the B&O threatened to take its trains back to its own route and leave the P&LE without a comfortable stream of revenue. It never happened, as the two always came to terms. Jim P., you're correct, what we think of as "Pennsylvania Station" was in fact called Union Station when it was opened (and scrollwork on decorative items such as doorknobs or other such hardware bears this out) because it served "many" railroads -- never mind that all of them were PRR family members. How convenient for the Pennsy to grab the grand-sounding name "Union Station" for itself, when its facility served as host only for those of its own family -- PRR, Fort Wayne, Panhandle, and you might even stretch it to include the former Allegheny Valley, but it was never a true union station. Railroad historian John Hankey has said the Union Station concept is entirely American in its origin and almost entirely American in execution. Pittsburgh was the exception -- now, Cincinnati Union Terminal or Kansas City Union Station, St. Louis Union Station, Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal, or New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal -- *those* were real union stations. Hope this helps. Dan (a former P&LE employee) Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 84:5 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:45:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuting to Williamsport PA My sister has an old book Hammonds Family Reference World Atlas this book published in 1960 has a map of every state and province in North America. These maps show no roads only towns and railroiads. It is a good reference for Railroading in that era. After all the talk on Commuting to Williamsport, I looked at the PA map and it shows the NYC going through Jersey Shore to Williamsport and the Reading stopping in Williamsport. This 1960 map shows two rail lines between the Jersey Shore Area and Williamsport. One the PRR and the other the NYC. Did the Reading ever go to Jersey Shore? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:23:57 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] Otherwise, undecs... Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 3/22/99 3:05:45 PM Central Standard Time, > Ogarasteam@aol.com writes: > > << so to many people who don' know better they think it looks nice. Remember > model railroading is fun. >> > > Agreed on both counts. However,the correct paint and lettering scheme would > also look nice to those less anal-retentive than guys like myself. So, for > example, all those years when the only F7s we could get were in light green > or tuscan with 5-stripe scheme those same resources could have been dedicated > to doing one right and everyone could have been happy. > BTW I haven't seen the new Proto2000 GP30 so I will not prejudge it. > And,once again lets all have fun --I am mildly annoyed at the inaccuracies but > life will go on. > > Bob Zoeller > Not that you can tell much about the color from it, but Life-like has a picture of the PRR GP30 at: http://www.lifelikeproducts.com/proto/pics/gp30_2a.JPG -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:48:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh In a message dated 3/22/99 8:24:37 PM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << As regards the Erie in pittsburgh, well, that didn't happen the way it appeared. I think the Erie engines your dad spotted were running through on the joint Erie-P&LE Cleveland to Pittsburgh trains, such as the Morning and evening Steel Kings, as well as others. One of these trains, in fact was an Erie-P&LE-B&O operation with through cars running all the way from Cleveland to Washington . (On the B&O this train was the Washingtonian, #'s 21 and 22). Tapes of the B&O from the 1950's often show this train carrying either an Erie or P&LE (NYC System) coach east of Pittsburgh. The Erie itself came as close to Pittsburgh as Youngstown, where they had a joint depot with the P&LE (or rather an Erie station used by some P&LE trains). I know in diesil days Erie PA's sometimes wandered through to the steel city, and possibly E8's as well. Hope this helps.>> I was born & raised in Pittsburgh (1952) and found the idea of Erie locomotives coming into town over the P&LE very interesting. Great Stuff! Regarding "Union Station", was the former Pennsylvania Station named that because of the predecessor railroads meeting there? I thought I read that somewhere. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:57:49 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] diesel want list On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 Elden.J.Gatwood@splmail01.spl.usace.army.mil wrote: > Anyway, the results: > "What plastic diesel, HO, in state-of-the-art tooling/details, would you > like to see made next? (Yes, descending order) > FM Erie-Built > FM C-Liner Miracle Castings is doing both of these; Life-Like Canada is doing some model(s) of C-Liner as well. I suppose you won't consider "resin" to be plastic for this discussion, though, will you? > FM Trainmaster (both phases) As long as we have the Athearn this probably isn't going to happen soon. There are other things I'd rather see first, but to each his own. I modified mine as best as possible to be Pennsy-correct. I'd settle for revamped trucks on the Athearn model, at this point. The C628 trucks with new sideframes would be "close enough" > Baldwin RT-624 Steve has much of what he needs to do at least some of these. It is possible to construct an accurate unit by chopping AS-616 shells and putting Commonwealth trucks (a la the AS-616) under it. Look in the most recent Withers book if you don't believe me. > Alco T-6 "Someone" is doing these is plastic and they're expected out soon. I don't know details yet. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:56:21 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Clarifying [PRR] Pittsburgh and all related posts Dan Cupper wrote: > > Ironically, although B&O > passenger trains over the P&W Subdivision to Butler (and at one time, > Rochester and Buffalo, N.Y., via the old BR&P) stopped running about > 1953-54, Amtrak routed the Broadway Limited over the P&W after it > abandoned PRR's PFtW&C route to Chicago in favor of the CSX ex-B&O > route, and until a connection could be completed between the former PRR Erie & Ashtabula Division at New Brighton and CSX (ex-B&O) near Ellwood City. Clarifying: The CR(ex-PRR)-to-CSX(ex-B&O) new connection is roughly in the vicinity of Ellwood City. I meant to make it clear that New Brighton is where the ex-PRR E&A Division line (now called Youngstown Line by Conrail) diverted from the ex-PRR, ex-PFtW&C route. Thanks, Mark. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:10:55 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of BPX29@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 9:02 PM To: mittner@webtv.net Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh It was stated: The Erie itself came as close to Pittsburgh as Youngstown, -------------- Technically the Erie came closer to Pittsburgh than Youngstown, via its branch from Sharon, PA (Ferrona Yard) to New Castle, PA, about 15 miles closer than Youngstown. However, this was not a hotshot passenger line, which I realize is the thread of this message. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] diesel want list Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 06:22:13 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/22/99 7:26 PM, Elden.J.Gatwood@splmail01.spl.usace.army.mil (Elden.J.Gatwood@splmail01.spl.usace.army.mil) wrote: >Hey, I never had any feedback as to the "diesel want-list" you guys (and >many others) participated in a while back. I sent the results to Life-Like, >Stewart, Kato, and others, and only got a call from Steve Stewart, who is >very nice, and seemed genuinely interested. > These results WERE posted to the list long ago...as well as the freight car want list and the passenger car want list. Check the "PRR-Talk" archive at "Keystone Crossings" and search for the string "survey results". ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] THE ELMIRA BRANCH Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 06:19:44 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/22/99 5:26 PM, VVA249@aol.com (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: > My local hobby Shop is displaying a new soft cover copy of "The Elmira >Branch" by Bill Calarosa -for $30.00 From comments on this list I had >believed the book to be "out of print" > If anyone is interested I will purchase it for them and send it along - I >would ask an additional $5.00 to cover the sales tax, packaging and postage Unless they did another printing - doubtful - it is "out of print". That just means the original publisher no longer has stock in their warehouse. There could be many copies still in the retail and distribution channels. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: [PRR] Re: [NYC-Railroad] Commuting to Williamsport PA Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 05:23:20 -0500 Roy Breon writes: > Here's a question that pertains to both lists. My parents grew up in > Jersey Shore PA on the NYC. It was a small town about 14 miles west of > Williamsport PA. Railroads serving Williamsport were the Reading and the > Pennsylvania. There was yard called the Newberry Yard about three miles > west of Williamsport. The NYC came east as far as Newberry but to my > knowledge had no passenger station in Williamsport. The Pennsy and > Reading went west as far as Newberry and both had passenger stations in > Williamsport, and maybe Newberry. My Mother remembers people commuting > by train from the NYC station in Jersey Shore to Williamsport. How was > this done? Did the NYC have some trackage rights into Williamsport or > did the Pennsy have rights to Jersey Shore on the NYC. I know that the > Pennsy had a station at Anes Fort which was on the Pennsy line to Renovo > but that ran outside of Jersey Shore on the south side of the > Susquehanna. She remembers the train arriving at the NYC station from > Williamsport every day about 6 PM with workers from Williamsport. Were > talking about the late 1920's here. Can anyone help? Actually, Williamsport was served by FOUR railroads: NYC, PRR, RDG and Susquehanna and New York (abandoned in 1942) Looking at my Official Guides, the Central had a 5:52 PM train from Williamsport that arrived in Jersey Shore at 6:34 in 1916. By 1930, that particular timing was no longer shown. The Reading came into town on the North Side of the Susquehanna and then became the NYC as it passed through Newberry, still staying on the North Bank. The PRR looped through the city from the south bank; going to Buffalo, you would cross the Susquehanna once at Allens to get downtown and then exited on the west end of town via another bridge across the Susquehanna at Nisbet. (There was a connecting line between Allens and Nisbet along the south bank of the river through South Williamsport called the Williamsport and Linden Branch. This allowed some flexibility in routing traffic around Williamsport since through freights to the Elmira Division could bypass the downtown congestion by coming in from the west and head more or less north to both Newberry Yard and a short connecting track (actually built by the Susquehanna and New York) to access the Northern Central. (The S&NY had trackage rights out of Williamsport to Marsh Hill Junction where its own line began). There were five stations in the Williamsport area. The PRR (Northern Central) had stations at Market Street and at the Park Hotel (the main station ). The Reading Station had stations at Williamsport (main station, but don't know the street) and Maynard Street. Across Lycoming Creek was Newberry which was served by all four railroads. I don't know how many physical stations there were at Newberry. The Reading and the NYC shared a station. At one time, S&NY trains terminated at an adjacent station that they called "West Williamsport". Apparently the PRR also had its own Newberry Station, adjacent but separate. The NYC had trackage rights over the Reading from JN Tower(Newberry Junction) to Williamsport. Old official guides were careful to show this as "passenger service only". Reading trains (normally advertised as "Williamsport" service actually terminated at Newberry Station and then went into Newberry yard (which was a major freight interchange yard for the RDG and NYC). NYC Passenger Trains ran out of Williamsport to the north (Lyons, NY, the Central's Fall Brook District) and the south (Patton, PA, on the Central's Beech Creek District; while the passenger service terminated at Patton, the NYC had other branches in this area) The Fall Brook and Beech Creek lines met at JS Tower (Jersey Shore Junction); The station at Jersey Shore was EAST of this junction and that is where Mrs. Breon watched the "rush" hour! The Pennsylvania lines of the NYC are absolutely fascinating and I wish I knew more about them. A former NYC employee, a Wayne Campbell, privately published last year a softcover book called "Recollections of the Fall Brook Railroad", a 46 page book half of which is devoted to employee rosters. It just whets one appetite for a definitive study of the New York Central's Pennsylvania Division. BTW, Jersey Shore was the divisional headquarters. I was told by an old Central man that the Superintendent at Jersey Shore was a vital system post since he was responsible for the coal supply to the Central's steam locomotives. Makes sense to me. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:26:10 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Silver Tip Tray I have a beautiful Pennsy silver tip tray for sale on Ebay. Auction ends 3-24. The Ebay number is 79625239. Check it out. Priced right !!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:14:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh > I don't think you get into any true geological mountains until you get to > the Laurel Ridge escarpment. At road cuts, rail ROW cuts, and former strip > mines in the area, the rock striations are all pretty much horizontal in the > Pittsburgh vicinity. So, Squirrel Hill is probably a hill. So is Mt. > Washington. So is my home turf, the obscurely historic Bower Hill. And so is > just about every other high spot in the area. If memory serves me correctly, the entire Appalachian chain is a peneplane - mountains that were eroded down and then the valleys were eroded into the "flat" surface. If you really want to know, e-mail my brother John (harper.john@a1.dcnr.state.pa.us) who is a geologist/paleontologist at the Herr's Island (site of the former slaughter house served, I believe, by the PRR) office of the DCNR. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:53:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Station Signs Hi All, My version of The PRR Standard Maintenance of Way Plans, has a station sign plan on page 40, but this one is without the Keystone. If this would help you contact me off line and I will scan it and EMail it to you. AlbertSR@AOL.COM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:44:49 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re:Commuting to Williamsport From: Roy K Breon Yep. I picked them both up but thanks for making sure. My Grandfather was Road Foreman out of Jersey Shore/Avis. I remember visiting the Jersey Shore offices where all the telegraphers were at work dispatching trains. Also went on several cab rides, steam and diesel, at Avis. There was a lot of coal handled. I think that the NYC Fallbrook line to Lyons NY was originally constructed by the NYC to get supply coal. I think the breakthrough in the Commuter discussion occurred when you and one other indicated that the NYC had trackage rights to the RDG station. I remember the RDG Station and the Campbell St (Park) PRR station, and a Newberry Station. None others. The RDG station was on Front St along the river between Market Street and Pine Street. That area's an expressway now although there is still one track through to Newberry and west. The PRR line on the south side is operational and rather busy. The PRR trackage through town, the in town yard, and the Walnut St engine roundhouse are gone and replaced by a street and some subsidized housing. Newberry Yard is still there although much abbreviated. NYC Fallbrook line north out of Jersey Shore is gone. Think it was torn up about 1993 or so. No more coal trains there. The PRR line north out of Williamsport to Sodus NY was heavily damaged by the hurricane in 1972 and never reopened. Portions of it in NY are used by some short lines. The section just north of Williamsport between Williamsport and Trout Run is covered by a reconstructed Rt. 15. No more coal trains there anymore either Avis Yard is gone. It used to be quite an operation. Last time I was there, circa 1995, there were still three stalls of the roundhouse left and were being used for storage. TT pit was filled. Coal tower gone. Power house gone. Several of the shop buildings were being used by a metal fabricating company. Roy Pittsford NY On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:31:02 -0500 "Richard F. Makse" writes: >Roy: > >I didn't copy you originally but it occurred to me that things >sometimes go >awry on lists so I thought I would attach my two messages of this AM >regarding the Williamsport-Jersey Shore commute that I sent to the PRR >and >NYC lists. > >Enjoy! > >#1 > >From: "Richard F. Makse" > >Roy Breon writes: > >> Here's a question that pertains to both lists. My parents grew up >in >> Jersey Shore PA on the NYC. It was a small town about 14 miles west >of >> Williamsport PA. Railroads serving Williamsport were the Reading >and the >> Pennsylvania. There was yard called the Newberry Yard about three >miles >> west of Williamsport. The NYC came east as far as Newberry but to >my >> knowledge had no passenger station in Williamsport. The Pennsy and >> Reading went west as far as Newberry and both had passenger stations >in >> Williamsport, and maybe Newberry. My Mother remembers people >commuting >> by train from the NYC station in Jersey Shore to Williamsport. How >was >> this done? Did the NYC have some trackage rights into Williamsport >or >> did the Pennsy have rights to Jersey Shore on the NYC. I know that >the >> Pennsy had a station at Anes Fort which was on the Pennsy line to >Renovo >> but that ran outside of Jersey Shore on the south side of the >> Susquehanna. She remembers the train arriving at the NYC station >from >> Williamsport every day about 6 PM with workers from Williamsport. >Were >> talking about the late 1920's here. Can anyone help? > >Actually, Williamsport was served by FOUR railroads: NYC, PRR, RDG >and >Susquehanna and New York (abandoned in 1942) > >Looking at my Official Guides, the Central had a 5:52 PM train from >Williamsport that arrived in Jersey Shore at 6:34 in 1916. By 1930, >that >particular timing was no longer shown. > >The Reading came into town on the North Side of the Susquehanna and >then >became the NYC as it passed through Newberry, still staying on the >North >Bank. The PRR looped through the city from the south bank; going to >Buffalo, you would cross the Susquehanna once at Allens to get >downtown and >then exited on the west end of town via another bridge across the >Susquehanna at Nisbet. (There was a connecting line between Allens >and >Nisbet along the south bank of the river through South Williamsport >called >the Williamsport and Linden Branch. This allowed some flexibility in >routing >traffic around Williamsport since through freights to the Elmira >Division >could bypass the downtown congestion by coming in from the west and >head >more or less north to both Newberry Yard and a short connecting track >(actually built by the Susquehanna and New York) to access the >Northern >Central. (The S&NY had trackage rights out of Williamsport to Marsh >Hill >Junction where its own line began). > >There were five stations in the Williamsport area. The PRR (Northern >Central) had stations at Market Street and at the Park Hotel (the >main >station ). The Reading Station had stations at Williamsport (main >station, >but don't know the street) and Maynard Street. > >Across Lycoming Creek was Newberry which was served by all four >railroads. I >don't know how many physical stations there were at Newberry. The >Reading >and the NYC shared a station. At one time, S&NY trains terminated at >an >adjacent station that they called "West Williamsport". Apparently the >PRR >also had its own >Newberry Station, adjacent but separate. > >The NYC had trackage rights over the Reading from JN Tower(Newberry >Junction) to Williamsport. Old official guides were careful to show >this as >"passenger service only". Reading trains (normally advertised as >"Williamsport" service actually terminated at Newberry Station and >then went >into Newberry yard (which was a major freight interchange yard for the >RDG >and NYC). > >NYC Passenger Trains ran out of Williamsport to the north (Lyons, NY, >the >Central's Fall Brook District) and the south (Patton, PA, on the >Central's >Beech Creek District; while the passenger service terminated at >Patton, the >NYC had other branches in this area) > >The Fall Brook and Beech Creek lines met at JS Tower (Jersey Shore >Junction); The station at Jersey Shore was EAST of this junction and >that is >where Mrs. Breon watched the "rush" hour! > >The Pennsylvania lines of the NYC are absolutely fascinating and I >wish I >knew more about them. A former NYC employee, a Wayne Campbell, >privately >published last year a softcover book called "Recollections of the Fall >Brook >Railroad", a 46 page book half of which is devoted to employee >rosters. It >just whets one appetite for a definitive study of the New York >Central's >Pennsylvania Division. BTW, Jersey Shore was the divisional >headquarters. I >was told by an old Central man that the Superintendent at Jersey Shore >was a >vital system post since he was responsible for the coal supply to the >Central's steam locomotives. Makes sense to me. > >Dick Makse > >#2 >From: "Richard F. Makse" > >Dear Little Leaguers: > >Since the subject has been discussed on both lists, I thought I would >share >views of three of the stations in Williamsport: > >slide I took in 1971 >http://www.twinney.com/prr/prrwilliamsport.jpg >(61k) > >postcard of Market Street Station, 1915 >http://www.twinney.com/prr/prrmarketstreet.jpg >(34k) > >postcard of Philadelphia & Reading Station , 1915 >http://www.twinney.com/prr/rdgwilliamsport.jpg >(43k) > >Dick Makse > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS CHANGES & NC Chapter News. Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:40:59 -0500 Jerry, ..The PRRT&HS position that was held by the late and great J.D.Lynch, was divided up to ease the work load on the new staff. NCR Chapter News: NORTHERN CENTRAL CHAPTER MEETING----APRIL 11,th at the Yorktowne Hotel ( downtown York ) in the Colonial room at 1:30 pm. Chapter member Dave Graeff will do a program on PRR Diesel locomotive power. Starting with the first that the PRR purchased to the 1968 merger. NCR Chapter donates $500.00 from the sale of the New Freedom Station Kits to the York County Rail / Trail Authority for the restoration of the station....The R/T Authority wishes to thank the NC Chapter for there donation. ---------- > From: Jerry > To: VVA249@aol.com; PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS CHANGES > Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 9:35 AM > > On 3/23/99 9:17 AM, VVA249@aol.com (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: > > > This month's Model Railroader lists a new mailing address for the PRRT&HS: > > P.O. Box 712, Altoona, Pa 16603-0712 The change, I'm sure, is a reflection > >of the death of James J.D. Lynch Esq. - longtime Secretary of the Society > > Hmmm. Wonder where it's going? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 15:01:00 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/23/99 2:43 PM, Kevin Trichtinger (ktrick45@icubed.com) wrote: >OK, it's been a few years since fourth-grade geography, but ISTR that "hill" >was what you called the things around Pittsburgh: parts of the plateau which >differed in grade elevation because of the effects of wind, water, or other >natural activity other than tectonics. This is opposed to "mountain" in >which tectonics caused the grade. You could tell the difference by looking >at rock striations. But, like I said, it's been a long time, and I could be >wrong. > >I don't think you get into any true geological mountains until you get to >the Laurel Ridge escarpment. At road cuts, rail ROW cuts, and former strip >mines in the area, the rock striations are all pretty much horizontal in the >Pittsburgh vicinity. So, Squirrel Hill is probably a hill. So is Mt. >Washington. So is my home turf, the obscurely historic Bower Hill. And so is >just about every other high spot in the area. Please move this thread to the "my hill's bigger than your hill" list. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:43:02 -0500 Mark wrote: >(Of course, hills and "mount"ains are scarce in Pittsburgh, the majority of >the land being gulleys sculpted out of a plateau by the local rivers. Any >of you local guys know for sure which of the "hills" are true hills, >geologically? Squirrel Hill? Any others? > OK, it's been a few years since fourth-grade geography, but ISTR that "hill" was what you called the things around Pittsburgh: parts of the plateau which differed in grade elevation because of the effects of wind, water, or other natural activity other than tectonics. This is opposed to "mountain" in which tectonics caused the grade. You could tell the difference by looking at rock striations. But, like I said, it's been a long time, and I could be wrong. I don't think you get into any true geological mountains until you get to the Laurel Ridge escarpment. At road cuts, rail ROW cuts, and former strip mines in the area, the rock striations are all pretty much horizontal in the Pittsburgh vicinity. So, Squirrel Hill is probably a hill. So is Mt. Washington. So is my home turf, the obscurely historic Bower Hill. And so is just about every other high spot in the area. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:17:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh In a message dated 3/23/99 0:11:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, JDPanza@aol.com writes: << was born & raised in Pittsburgh (1952) and found the idea of Erie locomotives coming into town over the P&LE very interesting. Great Stuff! Regarding "Union Station", was the former Pennsylvania Station named that because of the predecessor railroads meeting there? I thought I read that somewhere. >> The PRR Station in Pittsburgh was officially called Union Station (US Tower was named for the station) because the PRR, PFtW&C, PCC&St.L and Allegheny Valley Railroad all used the station. PFtW&C had its own station in Allegheny City also about 1. rail mile separted the two stations. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR Lettering/Fonts Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 12:44:45 -0500 From: Jerry I noticed on eBay that someone was selling blueprints which contained 3" letters for use on freight cars (for car numbers, etc.). It was dated 1954. I passed, since I am mostly into passenger equipment and didn't know what I would ever use it for. However, does anyone have any similar blueprints for other lettering? If I can get a similar blueprint for PRR's Craw Clarendon or Futura, I will take on the task of scanning them and converting them into a PostScript typeface (multi-platform), TrueType, etc. Contact me off-list. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Station Signs Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:51:00 -0500 The MOW plan book only has the lettering and outline for signs without the keystone borders... Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dennis @ > D & S Hobbies > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 11:17 AM > To: PRR-Talk; CENTGA@aol.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Station Signs > > > I believe that the PRR MOW Plan Book (not sure of the exact title, it's at > home) published some time ago by the Builders Compendium and > subsequently by > Boynton Associates has the diagrams. > > Hope this helps. > > Dennis > mailto:dennis@onerrave.com > > D & S HOBBIES > http://www.onerrave.com > 34 Main Street > South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: CENTGA@aol.com > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 11:41 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR Station Signs > > > >Does anyone have PRR standard drawings of the station signs with the > Keystone > >in it? Thanks Todd Horton > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: [PRR] Stations in Williamsport Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:26:13 -0500 Dear Little Leaguers: Since the subject has been discussed on both lists, I thought I would share views of three of the stations in Williamsport: slide I took in 1971 http://www.twinney.com/prr/prrwilliamsport.jpg (61k) postcard of Market Street Station, 1915 http://www.twinney.com/prr/prrmarketstreet.jpg (34k) postcard of Philadelphia & Reading Station , 1915 http://www.twinney.com/prr/rdgwilliamsport.jpg (43k) Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MO Tower Razing Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 09:37:31 -0500 From: Jerry I don't subscribe to TRAINS, but I saw the April issue at a newstand last night. There is a photo in it of MO being razed. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS CHANGES Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 09:35:48 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/23/99 9:17 AM, VVA249@aol.com (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: > This month's Model Railroader lists a new mailing address for the PRRT&HS: > P.O. Box 712, Altoona, Pa 16603-0712 The change, I'm sure, is a reflection >of the death of James J.D. Lynch Esq. - longtime Secretary of the Society Hmmm. Wonder where it's going? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:18:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuting to Williamsport PA From: Roy K Breon There has been good discussion on my question and I really appreciate all the comments that I have received from list members. These lists are GREAT for this sort of thing. I'll try to create a summary soon. Anyway, to my knowledge, which as I said, is now greater than before, the Reading did not go to Jersey Shore but stopped at Newberry Yard just west of Williamsport. The PRR had a "Jersey Shore Station" but it really was in Antes Fort across the Susquehanna River and about three miles south of Jersey Shore. Jerry Shickler has an 1879 map at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/pemap9.jpg which shows some detail. It indicates that the NYC trackage was called the Pine Creek RR in 1879. NYC must have taken it over after that date. Take a look. Roy Breon Pittsford NY On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:45:31 EST TVPedro@aol.com writes: >My sister has an old book Hammonds Family Reference World Atlas this >book >published in 1960 has a map of every state and province in North >America. >These maps show no roads only towns and railroiads. It is a good >reference >for Railroading in that era. After all the talk on Commuting to >Williamsport, >I looked at the PA map and it shows the NYC going through Jersey Shore >to >Williamsport and the Reading stopping in Williamsport. > >This 1960 map shows two rail lines between the Jersey Shore Area and >Williamsport. One the PRR and the other the NYC. Did the Reading ever >go to >Jersey Shore? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:17:46 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS CHANGES This month's Model Railroader lists a new mailing address for the PRRT&HS: P.O. Box 712, Altoona, Pa 16603-0712 The change, I'm sure, is a reflection of the death of James J.D. Lynch Esq. - longtime Secretary of the Society Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:39:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS CHANGES I understand Fred Shaefer, PRRT&HS (Altoona resident) has assumed Lynch's work. Hope this helps. David Seidel Altoona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:24:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Commuting to Williamsport From: Roy K Breon I believe they're all gone. The last one to exist was the brick PRR station at Campbell Street. Burned about 1990, I believe. Whether it was still being used as offices and storage at the time, I don't know. The Reading station was demolished sometime after 1950 but I'm not sure when. Apparently this was used by the NYC as well. Don't know about the PRR Market Street station. One person claimed it was still in existence as the Caboose Restaurant but I'm not sure about that. I don't remember it being there in the 50's. Guess I'm not too much help. Anyone have more detail??? Roy On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:43:44 -0500 "Steven Delibert" writes: >From: "Steven Delibert" > >So being that familiar with the scene, can you tell us if any of >those >lovely stations that Dick Makse put up are still with us? >Or have they all succumbed to progress and uglification? > >---------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:46:10 -0500 From: John Griffin Subject: [PRR] NYC Trackage rights to Renovo Hi Greg, I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but the NYC connected at "Keating, PA", not "Keating Summit, PA". The NYC had a branch from Clearfield, PA to Keating. I don't have any idea about trackage rights to the NYC but would be interested to find out. Cheers. - John - >On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:29:15 -0800 "Greg Stone" >writes: >I have been told that the NYC had trackage rights over the PRR >through >Renovo. I believe they came down from the north around Keating >Summit. >I >recently purchased a photo showing a portion of the Renovo station >taken >from the top of NYC steam engine. So there must be some truth to >this. >I >have been told this by more than one individual.. >Greg Stone >PRRT&HS member >Special interest in anything on Renovo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:32:38 -0500 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: [PRR] Re: NYC Trackage rights to Renovo > I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but the NYC >connected at "Keating, PA", not "Keating Summit, PA". The NYC had a >branch from Clearfield, PA to Keating. I don't have any idea about >trackage rights to the NYC but would be interested to find out. The nyc had trackage rights from Keating (pronounced Kating, with a long A) or Keating Juncton south thru Renovo and Lock Haven to RICH, where the nyc then veered off, went upgrade to its own former Beech Creek line at Browns, and bridged both the PRR main and the west branch of the Susquehanna into Avis yard. These rights were in effect since the very early 1900s. It was an outlet for coal that came from mines served by nyc yards at Clearfield and Cherry Tree and supplanted the nyc's original Beech Creek line up the Alleghney Front to the coalfields of Centre, Clearfield, and Cambria counties. The BC line from Blanchard up to Snow Shoe had numerous curves and was relatively steep, tho nothing near the 2 percent and more that the PRR's Clearfield branch encountered a little further to the southwest trying to reach those same coal deposits. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Trackage rights to Renovo Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:25:20 -0500 John Griffin writes: > I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but the NYC > connected at "Keating, PA", not "Keating Summit, PA". The NYC had a > branch from Clearfield, PA to Keating. I don't have any idea about > trackage rights to the NYC but would be interested to find out. Cheers. The Central had trackage rights from McElhattan through Renovo to Keating. At Keating, the Central set out on its own line to Clearfield. This is confirmed in my 1923 CT1000E, 1945 CT1000C and the NYC's SCS-263 (their equivalent of the CT1000) dated 11/1/25. McElhattan is just a hair under 20 miles west of Williamsport Station on the PRR. I didn't come across any rights granted by the Central to the PRR in this district but I won't say "never". The Central also had trackage rights beginning at Clearfield from the Buffalo Rochester and Pittsburgh. Does anyone on the list know of a PRR document that showed trackage rights agreements? It would seem that the PRR had lists of everything but I have never come across such a document. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:34:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Spectrum PRR K-4 PRR Modelers, Hello, this goes out to the guys that have the new upgraded K4 from Spectrum. One of my buddies has given me one of these to fix a major problem he is having. He is having trouble running his loco (light) through switches. It is even worse when he has a train coupled to it. After inspecting this I was baffled with the new drawbar setup they have come up with. Their idea was good but the way they put their idea to use is "unreliable". Everytime that loco approaches a switch there is a slight bind in the drawbar and thus derails the tender. Is there others out there with the same problem? I am going to remove that setup and replace it with a regular drawbar. Anyone else have to do this also. This is his second K4 that is doing this. He returned the first one thinking it was justt a bad engine. I have tested the second one on my layout and it does the same thing here. Wheels are in gauge. Any suggestions? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] Williamsport Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:08:10 -0500 Now that the Williamsport crowd is awake and fired up, I have some questions for you. Across the river at the west end of town in Nisbet (by topographic map; Linden by ETT) the Pennsy had an on-line engine service factility that included two coal docks, water tower and columns, and sand house. The foundations/footers are still there. Note that they are carefully guarded by families of rattlesnakes and possibly copperheads in the summer months, so be careful! I have an arial photograph taken by Putsee Vamuci, a retired professional photographer, taken in 1963 after the demise of steam, but the facility was surprisingly intact at that time. The coal docks appear to be wooden construction. There appears to have been a similar wooden coal dock in Emporium, pre-dating the round coal dock that is more common in pictures. The wooden structure in Emporium can be seen (ever so briefly) in the Herron Video "Pennsy Glory 3" in the scene showing two I-1's returning from Keating Summit. Does anyone know anything about these wooden coal docks, any details of their construction, have or know of other photographs, etc? I am designing a 3 deck model railroad (small basement) that will feature Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit. I plan to model 1940 (all steam), when I believe the wooden coal docks were in existence. The recent discussions on Williamsport, NYC trackage rights, etc. were particularly helpful to me. Thanks, all of you who contributed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:49:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum PRR K-4 Ken, Thanks for your input. After I posted that question several hours ago I took a look at what I needed to do to make a normal drawbar coupling. After 30 minutes of making a drawbar and attaching it, (pretty simple), that K4 now flies through turnouts with out a problem. I am wondering why Bachmann changed this set up from their earlier release in the first place. My buddy also has the first run of these and that one runs fine through the switches as is. Dosn't run as smoothly as the new release but no trouble with the drawbar connection. Now to give it back and let my buddy try it out on his layout. I think he will be happy now. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:11:26 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Trackage rights to Renovo John and the group, The NYC had trackage rights on the PRR went from RICH (McElhattan, PA) to KEATING. A NYC line about a mile long, the BROWNS connecting track, went from RICH on the PRR to BROWNS on the NYC. BROWNS was just across the river from Avis and was the junction of the BROWNS connecting track with the NYC's Beech Creek line. The PRR trackage rights provided the NYC a lesser grade for their mineral trains than their own line through Beech Creek, Mill Hall to Avis provided. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 08:46 AM 3/24/99 -0500, John Griffin wrote: >Hi Greg, > > I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but the NYC >connected at "Keating, PA", not "Keating Summit, PA". The NYC had a >branch from Clearfield, PA to Keating. I don't have any idea about >trackage rights to the NYC but would be interested to find out. Cheers. > > > - John - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:58:10 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Books for sale I have the following Pennsylvania Railroad books for sale on Ebay: Pennsy Power Volume 1, First Edition Ebay# 80470352 Ends 3/26 The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station Ebay # 81084293 Ends 3/28 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Wabash Terminal From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:50:13 EST The old Wabash terminal, bridge, and tunnel in Pittsburgh always fascinated me. It was a nice example of "selective compression" if you wanted a major city depot ambiance complete with elevated tracks, train shed and an impressive head building. All in a very small space. I never could figure out its role in life until I got a copy of Rohr' wonderful Nickel Pate book. My copy is on loan to a friend so I can't be sure, I think the terminal had only about 6 platform tracks. Basically it ended up being the eastern terminus of the Wheeling and Lake Erie passenger service until it ended in 1938, the year I was born. I would see it on driving trips through Pittsburgh when I was a kid. The Wabash Terminal RR would be a really great "RR You Can Model" idea for those wanting to run trains from the terminal to hidden staging in the tunnel. Nothing to do with PRR however. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:56:15 -0500 The book "Pittsburgh Revealed, Photographs Since 1850, published by the Carnegie Museum of Art, 1997, $39.95 shows a panoramic view of Pittsburgh taken from Mount Washington in 1908. The photograph shows the Wabash/P&WV bridge and station. While details of the station are hard to discern, the general layout, train shed, etc. can be seen fairly clearly, and its location can be closely pinpointed. The photograph also shows the P&LE station and train sheds. The Wabash/P&WV station portion of the photograph are shown slightly larger on the rear cover. The museum may have original photographs or know where they can be viewed. I acquired the book at The Landmark Store in the Station Square mall/shops, south end, up on the mezzanine. They have many items re. Pittsburgh. As far as I know, the book is still available. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:54:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport From: Roy K Breon This is interesting. I was not aware of this facility. Was it located east or west of the point where the line from Linden came south across the river and joined up with the main line? Were they coal docks or coal towers, i.e. how did the coal get into the tenders? I remember Putsee Vanucci and his brother Art who were both professional photographers. I think Art was also a pharmacist. They took a lot of railroad pictures. Can you post the picture? Modelling the line from Williamsport to Emporium covers quite a lot of territory! Roy On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:08:10 -0500 "wbigler" writes: >Now that the Williamsport crowd is awake and fired up, I have some >questions >for you. Across the river at the west end of town in Nisbet (by >topographic >map; Linden by ETT) the Pennsy had an on-line engine service factility >that >included two coal docks, water tower and columns, and sand house. >The >foundations/footers are still there. Note that they are carefully >guarded >by families of rattlesnakes and possibly copperheads in the summer >months, >so be careful! I have an arial photograph taken by Putsee Vamuci, a >retired >professional photographer, taken in 1963 after the demise of steam, >but the >facility was surprisingly intact at that time. The coal docks appear >to be >wooden construction. There appears to have been a similar wooden coal >dock >in Emporium, pre-dating the round coal dock that is more common in >pictures. >The wooden structure in Emporium can be seen (ever so briefly) in the >Herron >Video "Pennsy Glory 3" in the scene showing two I-1's returning from >Keating >Summit. > >Does anyone know anything about these wooden coal docks, any details >of >their construction, have or know of other photographs, etc? I am >designing >a 3 deck model railroad (small basement) that will feature >Williamsport, >Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit. I plan to model 1940 (all >steam), >when I believe the wooden coal docks were in existence. The recent >discussions on Williamsport, NYC trackage rights, etc. were >particularly >helpful to me. Thanks, all of you who contributed. > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:06:22 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum PRR K-4 Hi Gary, >Everytime that loco approaches a switch >there is a slight bind in the drawbar and thus derails the tender. Is >there others out there with the same problem? There are two associated problems with the K4...one is the draw bar, and the second is all those bloody wires (I'm still trying to figure out what all of them are for!). These are compounded by the lack of weight in the tender. I believe the curent drawbar was an attempt to provide a more realistic close coupling of the tender, yet allow it to slide back on tighter radii. Solutions: 1) Make sure that the screws holding the drawbar retaining plates are not over tight. This was a problem on mine as delivered. 2) Add some graphite lubricant to the drawbar. 3) Make sure that the wiring harness has some slack, so that the there is enough room for the loco to make it around a corner. Mine, as delivered was so tight that the tender listed to one side by about 15 degrees, like a sinking ship... 4) As you describe...make a new drawbar Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:06:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum PRR K-4 Bruce and others that responded to the Spectrum K4 Problem, Thanks for all your suggestions. The overtight screw seems to have been everyones culprit. It may have worked (loosening it) for this one too but before I had recieved any emails I went ahead and made my own drawbar. It now works fine. I still want to add weight to the tender because I would imagine pulling 7-8 cars that light tender will still be pulled from the rails with the weight of a heavy train behind it. Anyway the problem was solved with the drawbar. Thanks Guys, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:48:20 -0500 Does anyone out there have information and/or interest in the Monour Railroad, a fallen flag in the Pittsburgh area? It was a coal hauling short line that ran through the hills, with junctions with several first class railroads. I have Gene Shaeffer's book, but I suspect there are others out there with more info/interest. I realize this is not a Pennsy topic, although PRR did have a couple interchanges with the Montour and owned a sizeable interest in it. Therefore, let's communicate off-site unless there's a lot of interest, in which case I'll let the site-master decide. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Car Elevations Needed Date: Thu, 25 Mar 99 11:36:21 -0500 From: Jerry Looking for "to scale" elevations for the following passenger cars, to pursue manufacturer of sides by Union Station Products: PL85 - baggage-lounge-bar PS21 - Budd-built 21 roomette smooth side w/fluted roof "INN" series Floor plans might be helpful as well. Also, who built the car. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] Williamsport RR Pictures Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:22:44 -0500 There are quite a few pictures of steam railroading in the Williamsport PA area on the Bowser web site. Some of Putsee's pictures are included. I haven't had time to go through them all, so I don't know whether the arial photo of the Nisbet/Linden engine terminal is included. However, as far as I know, Putsee has a few dozen RR pictures available (he was a commercial photographer, not specifically interested in railroading). I found out about him from English's Model RR shop, looked up his number, called him, and went over to see him. He was charging $10 for 8/10 b&w photos a couple years ago. Seemed high, but if it's exactly what you want, I suppose we've all paid the price at one time or another. The pictures include arial views of the Walnut Street Yard and roundhouse from both ends (one including the freight station when it was in operation, arial view of Park Station, arial view of Newberry Yard, and several pictures of PRR and Reading freight and passenger stations. The pictures were taken in the late 50's/early 60's. There is also one of the bridge at the east end of town showing the PRR/Reading crossing and tower, and the Allens junction. You can contact Putsee at: Putsee Vannucci 1307 Penna. Ave Williamsport PA 17701-2611 (717) 322-6726 When I met Putsee, he wasn't much interested in enlarging portions of pictures or printing more copies of pictures he had sold out, but who knows what interest and $ might accomplish? (Retirees are always interested in a few bucks if it's not too much work!) Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Car Elevations Needed Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:52:09 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 25 Mar, Jerry wrote: > Looking for "to scale" elevations for the following passenger cars, to > pursue manufacturer of sides by Union Station Products: > > PL85 - baggage-lounge-bar > PS21 - Budd-built 21 roomette smooth side w/fluted roof "INN" series There are diagrams of PL85 and PS21[ABC] on Rob's web site; are these not detailed enough? http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=loun&sz=sm&fr= http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=sle&sz=sm&fr= Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:44:48 -0500 Re. Roy's comment about the model railroad I'm designing for a small basement to include Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit: Yes, this covers quite a lot of territory. Selective compression takes on new meaning! Those of you who are interested in accurate modeling should take a deep breath and a Prozac before reading on! I plan a three level walk around layout in my small basement. Hence some real juggling of minimum curve radius/aisle widths. I plan to only model these locations, one per level. The bottom level will be Williamsport, the middle level Renovo and Emporium junction, the top level Keating Summit. For Renovo, I'm experimenting with putting the turntable/roundhouse in a corner to make use of otherwise dead space. I have to curve the yard to fit it in, even fairly compressed. I'm working on the idea of using a small portion of roundhouse and corner mirrors to give the illusion of size. No helixes are included - too much hidden trackage, although they are useful for serial staging. I plan to use the entire railroad as a big helix, which seems to be possible without getting grades over 1.5-2%. But, I do plan to bend geography and history a bit. Deep breadth time, you detail folks! I plan to make Newberry Junction an interchange with the Montour, a fallen flag coal hauling short line near Pittsburgh. It interchanged with the P&LE at Montour Jcn. in Coraopolis PA. My interest stems from the fact that my grandfather worked for the Montour, and I spent many a day riding locomotives on mine runs in the late steam/early diesel era. I plan for the Montour to have trackage rights on the PRR through Renovo to Keating Jcn. instead of the NYC. My bending of history is to include the mill and interchange of the Potato Creek logging railroad at Keating Summit, even though I'm modeling 1940. I've always wanted to model a logging rr. Since time and space are in limited supply, I'm combining these on my Pennsy Renovo Division. Since I'm in the early design phase, I would welcome all the help, advice, comment, and criticism I can get! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] Engine Service Facilities Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:30:54 -0500 Following my comments on the Williamsport area Nisbet/Linden engine service facility, examination of maps, timetables, and distances indicate that there might well have been another engine service facility/coaling facility in the region of Keating Summit/Port Allegheny. This would seem a good location also as trains had to stop to add/remove helpers for the assault on Keating Summit. There are some monster concrete wall/supports, or whatever in this area right next to the tracks. I first thought this might have been where the service facility was located, but Tomas Taber's Logging books seem to indicate they were supports for the crossing of the Potato Creek, a standard gage logging RR of the early 1900's. The Potato Creek had a mill at Keating Summit where it interchanged with the PRR. Can anyone confirm? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] KC: File Format Opinion Sought Date: Thu, 25 Mar 99 15:39:36 -0500 From: Jerry I'd like to solicit opinions...please respond direct. I have scanned and converted to Adobe Acrobat format many historical documents for serving via "Keystone Crossings"...CT1000's, a few timetables, etc. Advantages of this format is that it continues to read like a book, one file includes all pages, etc. Another approach, taken by Rob S. with impressive results, is saving each page as a separate file and serving it over the web as a JPEG. Advantages are faster downloads for single pages. Image quality may be better. Disadvantages are that it is no longer one document, so you need to return to the site to see other sections, or download the whole thing. Both formats have merit. What are your thoughts and preferences? Again, please respond direct. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Car Elevations Needed Date: Thu, 25 Mar 99 13:05:18 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/25/99 12:52 PM, Dennis Rockwell (dennis@bbn.com) wrote: >> Looking for "to scale" elevations for the following passenger cars, to >> pursue manufacturer of sides by Union Station Products: >> >> PL85 - baggage-lounge-bar >> PS21 - Budd-built 21 roomette smooth side w/fluted roof "INN" series > >There are diagrams of PL85 and PS21[ABC] on Rob's web site; >are these not detailed enough? > > http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=loun&sz=sm&fr= > http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=sle&sz=sm&fr= Wow! Rob's really been at it! These will probably do. Let you know. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] Williamsport Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:03:46 -0500 These are my first postings to this group (or any group), so if I'm violating any norms or protocol, please forgive me and point me in the right direction! Responding to Roy: The Nisbet/Linden engine service facility was located at the point where the PRR line west out of Newberry Yard crossed the river and re-joined the main line that bypassed Williamsport. The coaling facilities were towers that appear from Putsee's photograph to be rectangular wooden construction. Interesting to find wood coal towers that existed right up to the end of steam. (His picture was dated 1963 - after steam's demise) I imagine standard chutes got the coal into the tenders. It appears that the standard bucket hoist probably got the coal up into the towers. There were 2 of them which appeared identical. One was on the mail line, inside the wye, the other was also inside the wye on the west leg of the wye where westbound trains from Williamsport rejoined the main line. Sanding facilities and water tower were also inside the Y. The picture was shot from an airplane at high enough altitude that it's difficult to discern detail, although the print is sharp and yields well to magnification. Unfortunately, I don't have the means to post the picture. I will post information on Putsee's pictures in a separate posting. The Nisbet/Linden engine terminal site responds well to railroad archeology, as the foundations and footers for much of it are still intact. As I said, though, be alert for snakes. They leave well enough alone unless you surprise them, or they are molting (August). But use a long stick to poke around and test brush before walking into it! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] re: Bachman K-4 & other models Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:00:07 -0500 Re. Inaccurate models: Noone has said, but hopefully we are communicating our concerns to the manufacturers in addition to each other. The only way we will get better, more accurate models is by bringing pressure to bear on the manufacturers and suppliers, in a constructive way. Initially, since I'm primarily intersted in operation, I didn't get too wound up about accuracy of models if they were at least in the ball park. After reading the discussion by the rest of you, I've gone to the other extreme! Many of us are as interested in accurate models as I am in operations. In today's world of information via Internet, talk sites like this one, historical societies, etc, there seems to be no excuse for inaccurate models. And today's manufacturing methods permit very good detail at reasonable prices. Hopefully we are communicating our concerns to the manufacturers in a construcive way, with copies to historical societies and the NMRA. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: [PRR] RE: "Merchandise Service" ERIE-builts Update Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:39:54 -0600 Be happy that it is only a month's delay and not the more than ten month delay and having to threaten legal action to get the Erie-builts I pre-paid from NovaTech Plastics! Bill Laird Jerry wrote: >>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Not sure if my weekly post from earlier today prompted a response or not, > but Miracle did finally address my query about the status of the > Erie-builts. As of yesterday, their web page still indicated a Feb. 28 > ship date. Unfortunately, their response indicates they haven't started > production yet. I apologize to my valued customers with advance > reservations. Please understand that we were originally mis-informed by > the manufacturer. > > Here is Miracle's response: > > On 3/25/99 12:07 PM, Miracle Castings Inc. (miracle-castings@on.aibn.com) > wrote: > > >Hi Jerry! Sorry for the delay in responding. The Erie built master is > done > >and we are working on molds and instructions. I know this represents > about > >a month's delay, but I think you'll find the finished product to be worth > >it. I'll keep you posted on when you will get kits, just as soon as I > have > >a RELIABLE estimate. Talk to you later, > > Pat > > > Please be patient. The BP20 Sharks were worth the wait. We need > manufacturers like Miracle to fill the void no addressed by the larger > companies. Thank you. <<<<< > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroad Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:32:24 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 25 Mar, "wbigler" wrote: > [ ... ] I plan to make Newberry Junction an interchange with the > Montour. [ ... ] > I plan for the Montour to have trackage rights on the PRR through > Renovo to Keating Jcn. instead of the NYC. Sounds perfectly reasonable. > My bending of history is to include the mill and interchange of the Potato > Creek logging railroad at Keating Summit, even though I'm modeling 1940. > I've always wanted to model a logging rr. That's always the best reason to bend history! My partner and I have invented a whole new sub to build a neat design as a Pennsy layout... Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:07:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Sandusky Branch + Hocking Valley Gize, Was looking at an 1899 map of the N&W. At this time, the N&W west end went only to Columbus; its later Cincinnati route is shown as a connection labelled the CP&V. At Columbus, two connecting roads are shown going north through Marion. The one to Toledo is the CHV&T (Columbus, Hocking Valley & Toledo?, a C&O predecessor). The one to Sandusky is labelled CS&H, and is recognizably the Sandusky Branch. Is this Columbus Sandusky & Hocking, or what? While we're at it, the line to Akron is labeled Ak. & Col., a new one on me. Usually see this referred to as the CA&C. Lines Westerners will smile to know that most other Pennsy lines in the area are labelled PCC&StL. The GR&I is shown on this map as from Richmond IN north. West of Indianapolis to St Louis, however, the Panhandle line is labelled TH&I (Terre Haute & Indianapolis?), which might have been the current legal name for the Vandalia. Research challenge: Which of these names are legitimate legal names of railroads on January 9, 1899, when the map was issued, and which are map-makers' license? My feeling is that maps of this period didn't always stick to the legal names/reporting marks of other railroads. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:18:08 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Sandusky Branch + Hocking Valley Rick Tipton wrote: > Research challenge: > Which of these names are legitimate legal names of railroads on January 9, > 1899, when the map was issued, and which are map-makers' license? My feeling > is that maps of this period didn't always stick to the legal names/reporting > marks of other railroads. CHV&T Columbus, Hocking Valley & Toledo existed from August 1881 to February 1899, when it became the Hocking Valley, which was merged into C&O in 1930. Predecessors of CHV&T were Columbus & Hocking Valley, Columbus & Toledo, and Ohio & West Virginia. Source: Edson, William D., RAILROAD NAMES, 1993, self-published, pp. 42, 68. CS&H Columbus, Sandusky & Hocking Railroad Co. was the legal name of the Sandusky Branch from August 22, 1895, when it was reorganized from the Columbus, Sandusky & Hocking RailWAY Co., to October 15, 1902, when it was conveyed to the (also PRR-controlled) Toledo, Walhonding Valley & Ohio Railroad Co. On the date you mentioned, January 9, 1899, it was actually being operated by a receiver, S.M. Felton, but still formally known as CS&H. TWV&O was merged with Cleveland & Marietta RR Co. in 1911 to form the Toledo, Columbus & Ohio River RR Co., which was merged with others to form the Pennsylvania, Ohio & Detroit RR in 1925. As a corporate entity, PO&D disappeared sometime in 1956, as its securities no longer are carried in the back of the annual report for 1956 and later. Don't know what it was merged into before it was sold to N&W, perhaps either the Connecting Railway or the Philadelphia, Baltimore & Washington, two eastern PRR corporations that gained much Lines West property in the 1960s, for reasons that I do not know. Source: PRR, Corporate, Financial & Construction History, Vol. 3, Lines West of Pgh., 1945, pp. 248-255 TH&I Terre Haute & Indianapolis Rail Road Co. was a predecessor of the Vandalia. The Terre Haute & Richmond RR Co. changed its name to the above in 1865, and, like CS&H, was being operated by a receiver at the moment you noted, January 9, 1899. It was merged with several other lines to form the Vandalia Railroad Co. on January 1, 1905. Source: same as above, pp.589-599. CA&C Cleveland, Akron & Columbus Railroad Co. was incorporated in November 1881 to take over the Cleveland, Mount Vernon & Delaware RR, which had defaulted. A court challenge resulted in a second sale, to the Cleveland, Akron & Columbus RailWAY Co., on Dec. 31, 1885. In 1911, the second CA&C was merged with Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley RR Co. to form the Cleveland, Akron & Cincinnati Railway Co. (that's right, a THIRD CA&C.) PRR records do not show any "Akron & Columbus" name. CA&C was merged with several other PRR-controlled lines to form the PO&D in 1925. Source: same as above, pp. 273-285. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Proverbs 27:17 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:35:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum PRR K-4 Bob, I myself don't have one of these Spectrm K4's. My buddy wanted me to fix that drawbar problem he was having. His layout is rather flat and I believe he said he can pull more than 4 of his Spectrum cars. As to how many I really don't know, I never did ask him. I have 7 Brass K's of different makes and they all due a wonderful job of pulling 8-10 car trains. Yes those locos are weighted. If I wasn't a "collector" of brass locos I would probably have an enginehouse full of those new Spectrum K's. I would probably model the NY&LB in the late 50's. BP20 sharks and K4's on Commuter Runs. I still may look into buying at least one of Spectrums K4's anyway. With a new tender, drawbar a few details and a new paint job I think one would look pretty good. Later, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:59:27 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Car Elevations Needed Jerry, The "Smooth side" Budd cars were not completely smooth! As the diagram alludes, they had prominant horizontal seams. This should be easy for USP with their milling techniques, but make sure Mark knows about it. BTW the B'way's 2-unit Budd diner would be the same, as would the single unit diner D85(x). I don't know the class offhand. I'll bet its on Rob's site however! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Jerry wrote: > > On 3/25/99 12:52 PM, Dennis Rockwell (dennis@bbn.com) wrote: > > >> Looking for "to scale" elevations for the following passenger cars, to > >> pursue manufacturer of sides by Union Station Products: > >> > >> PL85 - baggage-lounge-bar > >> PS21 - Budd-built 21 roomette smooth side w/fluted roof "INN" series > > > >There are diagrams of PL85 and PS21[ABC] on Rob's web site; > >are these not detailed enough? > > > > http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=loun&sz=sm&fr= > > http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=sle&sz=sm&fr= > > Wow! Rob's really been at it! These will probably do. Let you know. > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:06:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum PRR K-4 In a message dated 3/25/99 10:29:33 AM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << I would imagine pulling 7-8 cars >> Let me know how you do this. I haven't fooled with it to adjust spring or weight, but mine spins at about 4 cars. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:56:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroad wbigler writes: > My bending of history is to include the mill and interchange of the Potato > Creek logging railroad at Keating Summit, even though I'm modeling 1940. > I've always wanted to model a logging rr. dennis writes: >That's always the best reason to bend history! My partner >and I have invented a whole new sub to build a neat design >as a Pennsy layout... This is gratifying to me ... The design of my new raiload incorporates the Pennsy from Greenville through Pavonia yard, then West past Sunbury, all in a 3-mile visible main line in a 24 x 24 room. All steam/diesel, too - no wires. I'll model the Campbell's Soup Co. in Camden, and will have a selectively compressed model of the NY&LB bridge over the Manasquan - this into Greenville yard. BEND AWAY - and have fun doing it! Mike Hagan Andover, MA (open to suggestions for a NAME for my Pennsy division) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:15:35 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone and Cabins When did Pennsy start using Trainphones? Garrett Rea wrote: > > Gents: > > Two questions: > > 1, Were any N6Bs Trainphone equipped? I have never seen a photo of one, and I know that Trainphone was not in all areas, and most N6Bs were gone by the early 60's..... > > 2, When did PRR cabins have the antennas removed? I have seen one or to engines photographed in the final minutes before PC with the Trainphone antennas on, but what about cabins? Ian Fischer's PRR Color Guide, Vol. 2, shows most cabins in focal orange w/o the Trainphone antennas and anything with the RADIO decal on the side without them as well. > > Thanks > > Garrett Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroad Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:23:59 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BE770E.2DAB4880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great ideas Bill. I am enclosing some history for your area of Keating = Summit. On the Potato Creek Railroad, there is a logging company called the = Goodyear Lumber Company. It was owned by Frank H. Goodyear supported by = his brother Charles Waterhouse Goodyear. They began there operations = with there fist limber mill on line between 1875 1877. This is only an = educated guess by authorities of the area. This mill was in the town of = Wrights PA. Located between Port Allegheny and Keating Summit. The = Potato Creek Railroad ran from Keating Summit west to Keystone. It = passed a famous mill in Norwich. The Goodyear's had a major mill = operation here. In Norwich you can put a mill pond, band saw, a general = store, small town with a boardwalk sidewalk, three bay enginehouse and = major repair shop for cars and engines. The route of the railroad from = Keating summit was: 1.. Keating Summit 0.0 Miles 2.. Liberty 3.0 Miles 3.. Sykes 6.7 Miles 4.. Big Hollow 10.7 Miles 5.. Norwich 13.7 Miles 6.. Keystone 12.2 Miles 7.. Betula 15.4 Miles =20 The railroad not only did logging transportation it served as a = passenger train combing freight and passengers. The Potato Creek = railroad was incorporated on Jan 10, 1907. They owned side rod locos as = well as shays and climax engines. Keystone had a chemical factory and = Betula a stave well.=20 The primary wood lumbered was hemlocks. I hope this gives you a start. Give a yell if you need something of more = detail or have interests in other areas. You can also model interchanges = at First Fork, Driftwood, Emporium, Wharton.=20 Wayne F. Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wbigler To: PRR-Talk Posting Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 12:44 PM Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad > Re. Roy's comment about the model railroad I'm designing for a small > basement to include Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating = Summit: >=20 > Yes, this covers quite a lot of territory. Selective compression = takes on > new meaning! Those of you who are interested in accurate modeling = should > take a deep breath and a Prozac before reading on! >=20 > I plan a three level walk around layout in my small basement. Hence = some > real juggling of minimum curve radius/aisle widths. I plan to only = model > these locations, one per level. The bottom level will be = Williamsport, the > middle level Renovo and Emporium junction, the top level Keating = Summit. > For Renovo, I'm experimenting with putting the turntable/roundhouse in = a > corner to make use of otherwise dead space. I have to curve the yard = to fit > it in, even fairly compressed. I'm working on the idea of using a = small > portion of roundhouse and corner mirrors to give the illusion of size. >=20 > No helixes are included - too much hidden trackage, although they are = useful > for serial staging. I plan to use the entire railroad as a big helix, = which > seems to be possible without getting grades over 1.5-2%. >=20 > But, I do plan to bend geography and history a bit. Deep breadth = time, you > detail folks! I plan to make Newberry Junction an interchange with = the > Montour, a fallen flag coal hauling short line near Pittsburgh. It > interchanged with the P&LE at Montour Jcn. in Coraopolis PA. My = interest > stems from the fact that my grandfather worked for the Montour, and I = spent > many a day riding locomotives on mine runs in the late steam/early = diesel > era. I plan for the Montour to have trackage rights on the PRR = through > Renovo to Keating Jcn. instead of the NYC. >=20 > My bending of history is to include the mill and interchange of the = Potato > Creek logging railroad at Keating Summit, even though I'm modeling = 1940. > I've always wanted to model a logging rr. Since time and space are in > limited supply, I'm combining these on my Pennsy Renovo Division. = Since I'm > in the early design phase, I would welcome all the help, advice, = comment, > and criticism I can get! >=20 > Bill >=20 >=20 > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to=20 > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact = "listmaster@dsop.com". >=20 >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BE770E.2DAB4880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Great ideas Bill. I am enclosing = some history=20 for your area of Keating Summit.
 
On the Potato Creek Railroad, there = is a=20 logging company called the Goodyear Lumber Company. It was owned by = Frank H.=20 Goodyear supported by his brother Charles Waterhouse Goodyear. They = began there=20 operations with there fist limber mill on line between 1875  = 1877.=20 This is only an educated guess by authorities of the area. This mill was = in the=20 town of Wrights PA. Located between Port Allegheny and Keating Summit. = The=20 Potato Creek Railroad ran from Keating Summit west to Keystone. It = passed a=20 famous mill in Norwich. The Goodyear's had a major mill operation here. = In=20 Norwich you can put a mill pond, band saw,  a general store, small = town=20 with a boardwalk sidewalk,  three bay enginehouse and major = repair=20 shop for cars and engines. The route of the railroad from Keating summit = was:
 
  1. Keating Summit   =20     0.0     Miles
  2. Liberty    =    =20            =20   3.0    Miles
  3. Sykes    =    =20             =    =20 6.7    Miles
  4. Big Hollow   =20            =20 10.7    Miles
  5. Norwich    =    =20            =20 13.7    Miles
  6. Keystone    =    =20            =20 12.2    Miles
  7. Betula    =    =20             =    =20 15.4    Miles  =20
The railroad not only did logging=20 transportation it served as a passenger train combing freight and = passengers.=20 The Potato Creek railroad was incorporated on Jan 10, 1907. They owned = side rod=20 locos as well as shays and climax engines. Keystone had a chemical = factory and=20 Betula a stave well.
 
The primary wood lumbered was=20 hemlocks.
 
I hope this gives you a start. Give = a yell if=20 you need something of more detail or have interests in other areas. You = can also=20 model interchanges at First Fork, Driftwood, Emporium, Wharton. =
 
Wayne F. Dibert
102016.1343@worldnet.att.net=
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
 
From: wbigler <wbigler@stny.lrun.com>
To: PRR-Talk Posting <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 12:44 = PM
Subject: [PRR] Model = Railroad

> Re. Roy's comment = about the=20 model railroad I'm designing for a small
> basement to include=20 Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit:
>
> = Yes, this=20 covers quite a lot of territory.  Selective compression takes = on
>=20 new meaning!  Those of you who are interested in accurate modeling=20 should
> take a deep breath and a Prozac before reading = on!
>=20
> I plan a three level walk around layout in my small = basement. =20 Hence some
> real juggling of minimum curve radius/aisle = widths.  I=20 plan to only model
> these locations, one per level.  The = bottom=20 level will be Williamsport, the
> middle level Renovo and Emporium = junction, the top level Keating Summit.
> For Renovo, I'm = experimenting=20 with putting the turntable/roundhouse in a
> corner to make use of = otherwise dead space.  I have to curve the yard to fit
> it = in, even=20 fairly compressed.  I'm working on the idea of using a = small
>=20 portion of roundhouse and corner mirrors to give the illusion of = size.
>=20
> No helixes are included - too much hidden trackage, although = they are=20 useful
> for serial staging.  I plan to use the entire = railroad as a=20 big helix, which
> seems to be possible without getting grades = over=20 1.5-2%.
>
> But, I do plan to bend geography and history a=20 bit.  Deep breadth time, you
> detail folks!  I plan to = make=20 Newberry Junction an interchange with the
> Montour, a fallen flag = coal=20 hauling short line near Pittsburgh.  It
> interchanged with = the=20 P&LE at Montour Jcn. in Coraopolis PA.  My interest
> = stems from=20 the fact that my grandfather worked for the Montour, and I spent
> = many a=20 day riding locomotives on mine runs in the late steam/early = diesel
>=20 era.  I plan for the Montour to have trackage rights on the PRR=20 through
> Renovo to Keating Jcn. instead of the NYC.
> =
> My=20 bending of history is to include the mill and interchange of the = Potato
>=20 Creek logging railroad at Keating Summit, even though I'm modeling = 1940.
>=20 I've always wanted to model a logging rr.  Since time and space are = in
> limited supply, I'm combining these on my Pennsy Renovo=20 Division.  Since I'm
> in the early design phase, I would = welcome all=20 the help, advice, comment,
> and criticism I can get!
> =
>=20 Bill
>
>
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this = list.
>=20 Contact jerry@dsop.com for = details. Thank=20 you.
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.c= om/forms/spf/index.html.
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to =
> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems = persist,=20 contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>=20
> ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BE770E.2DAB4880-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:12:44 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: [PRR] Washington Union Station Just picked up my copy of Southern Color - Vol.2. It's a good book for SSF's but it also has some good pictures of Ivy City. John "Green Light" Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:46:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone and Cabins In a message dated 3/25/99 11:57:16 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net writes: << When did Pennsy start using Trainphones? >> Believe the first cabin so equipped was in the Chesapeake Division in 1943. The answers to Garrett's questions are the Trainphone system was not installed on N6b cabin cars an d the antennae were removed as radios replaced the Trainphone circa 1964-1965. Tom V. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:57:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sandusky Branch + Hocking Valley In a message dated 3/25/99 4:13:23 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << Research challenge: Which of these names are legitimate legal names of railroads on January 9, 1899, when the map was issued, and which are mapmakers' license? My feeling is that maps of this period didn't always stick to the legal names/reporting marks of other railroads. >> Without looking it up. I'll say that everything Sounds right but Akron & Columbus. seems like it was always CA&C (after 1869 and leasing of the Fort Wayne which brought this line into the fold) just that sometimes the C was for Cincinnati, at other times Cleveland but most often it was Columbus but it was nearly always "The Akron Branch" to its friends. The GR&I label between Richmond and Fort Wayne is open to dispute but there's usually a factual basis for colloquial usage. After the mid 1920s this line was operationally part of the Cincinnati branch. but in 1899, I'll throw my lot on a subsidiary. TH&I is correct to Terre Haute, THV&StL (or is it StLV&TH) anyway V=Vandalia, TH=Terre Haute and StL, well, you know was what the line was called between the Wabash and Mississippi. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:37:41 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Trackage rights to Renovo Dick, The 1966 PRR Northern Division (Rockville to Renovo) track chart I have states on the page showing RICH and PINE interlockings that the NYC had trackage rights RICH to KEATING. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 10:25 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Richard F. Makse wrote: >I didn't come across any rights granted by the Central to the PRR in this >district but I won't say "never". The Central also had trackage rights >beginning at Clearfield from the Buffalo Rochester and Pittsburgh. Does >anyone on the list know of a PRR document that showed trackage rights >agreements? It would seem that the PRR had lists of everything but I have >never come across such a document. > >Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:36:04 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Trackage rights to Renovo Richard F. Makse wrote: > >Does > anyone on the list know of a PRR document that showed trackage rights > agreements? It would seem that the PRR had lists of everything but I have > never come across such a document. Every issue of the annual PRR document "Record of Transportation Lines" gave a very detailed listing, by Region, of trackage-rights agreements under which PRR used other railroads, but I'm not aware of anything that comprehensively listed other roads' usage of the PRR. Many PRR annual reports also listed PRR's usage of other roads. Hope this is of help. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 119:105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:45:41 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] The Brass Works ND Cabin Car Have just received our shipment of The Brass Works ND cabin cars. I am not a rivet counter but my initial comparison to the Railworks version of the car shows only mionor differences in detail and none in workmanship. Some of you may not care for the spartan box the model comes in but I think it is a very accurate model at an excellent price. I'd be interested in hearing comments on this from the rest of this group. Frank Br ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:50:29 -0500 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Trackage rights to Renovo While we are on the subject of trackage rights over portions of the PRR's line through Williamsport, Lock Haven, Renovo, etc., I wonder if anyone has official verification that either the B&O or two of its acquisitions, the Buffalo & Susquehanna and the BR&P, had trackage rights in this territory. I recall some reference (now unknown to me) about B&S rights from Driftwood south to Renovo, and maybe BR&P or B&O rights from Keating (reached via rights over the nyc) thru to Newberry and the RDG. I am quite sure that if these rights ever existed, they were not exercised. As a semi-related aside, LF Loree tried mightily to acquire the BR&P and B&S back in the 1920s and planned a link to his D&H via the RDG at Newberry. Anyway, he did explore obtaining trackage rights over the PRR from Driftwood via Renovo at least to RICH. But of course the B&O ultimately got the BR&P/B&S. Can anyone shed any add'l light on the above? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:35:26 -0600 From: George Pierson Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainphone and Cabins Hi, all, > When did Pennsy start using Trainphones? I recently acquired a Middle Div. employees timetable for fall of 1945. In the "paste-in" section are instructions for use of the trainphone, leading me to assume that the insertion of instructions coincided with the installation of the system. The TT is at home but I believe the inserts were dated for Sept of 1945. -- George Pierson Dept. of Philosophy (george.pierson@trnty.edu) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:12:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Trackage rights to Renovo Michael, I've always found the Williamsport-Renovo area to be very appealing, and being a bit more of a B&O fan than Pennsy, I've looked around for a connection such as you mention. About as close as I can come with historical data regards B&O's takeover of the BR&P. I gather that the B&O actually had serious intentions of building a line between the Clearfield area and a Reading connection at Newberry, but the railroad was always a bit short of cash and the depression killed the idea. Doubtlessly there were corporate and political hurdles stacked up against such a line and nothing ever developed. Sure would have been fascinating though! And nothing says it can't happen in the basement. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:07:40 EST Subject: [PRR] CS&H, Sandusky Branch, and TO&C Gize, Have found something really strange. On yet another N&W map of Columbus, dated 1893, the rail facilities of the N&W and other roads are laid out in some detail. My first observation is that this is Columbus Ohio, but not the same railroad Columbus I saw in the 60's - lots of yards are smaller, engine houses in different places. BTW, it also appears that in this period the State Fairgrounds and the 20-year old Ohio State University were still beyond the edge of town. Fascinating stuff. Anyway, let's return to the PRR Sandusky Branch. You'll recall that Dan Cupper wrote : CS&H - Columbus, Sandusky & Hocking Railroad Co. was the legal name of the Sandusky Branch from August 22, 1895, when it was reorganized from the Columbus, Sandusky & Hocking RailWAY Co. On the other hand, Fred Rea wrote: According to my ORG for June 1893 (reprint): The only CS&H is the Columbus, Shawnee & Hocking ran East from Columbus to Fultonham where it split. One line to Zanesville and one South to Sayre where it split, South to Shawnee and East to McConnelsville. This was ultimately New York Central until abandoned in the 60's or 70's. Now back to this 1893 N&W map: 1. There's a rail line running along the north boundary of N&W's Joyce Avenue Yard, but Pennor Yard doesn't exist. The line's name is Columbus, Shawnee, & Hocking RR. 2. This same CS&H line continues east across Alum Creek, a dead ringer for the NYC line that used to cross the Panhandle main at East Columbus (near the PRR stockyards). This isolated branch met what I was taught to call "the Toledo & Ohio Central Western Branch" at Truro. Problem: per this map, the T&OC through Columbus didn't exist yet. 3. (Danger, PRR fans). This same CS&H line also proceeds west across the Cleveland Akron & Columbus (later the CA&C was "& Cincinnati") into an open space that will someday be Grogan Yard. The line continues west to the Big Four, but turns south towards the station instead of north towards Marion. 4. The middle of the Grogan Yard site is crossed diagonally by Harbor Road, which will later be called Cleveland Avenue. On the east side of Cleveland, there is an enginehouse north of the main. On the west side of Cleveland, there is a wye connecting to a line headed north along the EAST side of the Fairgrounds, and labeled "Sandusky Short Line". Color code on this map implies that the CS&H is under the same ownership as the Big Four line (i.e., Vanderbilt control), but this Sandusky Short Line is independent of the Big Four, the N&W, the Pandhandle, and the B&O. This leaves us with some loose ends. Writing this story as fiction, here's what I think may have happened: The CS&H makes its living carrying s.e. Ohio coal to the north side of Columbus, where it hands trains off to the friendly Sandusky Short Line. When the Sandusky Short Line loses its independence and comes under Pennsy control, it becomes a conduit for N&W's coal to Lake Erie. The CS&H, cut off from its through route, becomes controlled by the Vanderbilts via the Toledo & Ohio Central RR, which passes well east of Columbus on what will later be called the TOC Eastern Branch. To restore through traffic at Columbus, the TOC starts at Truro OH and builds a long lefthand run around the south side of Columbus, pairing up with the CHV&T/C&O from South Columbus north to Scioto, then building a new line up the Scioto River and through Marysville. This line continues, both toward Toledo, and to Bellefountaine. Meanwhile, the Sandusky Branch of the PRR faces rising traffic levels, but has some problems. The small yard/engine facility at Cleveland Avenue isn't long enough for the train sizes now desired. And it's crossed in the middle at grade by St Clair Avenue. Solution: Double the length of the yard. To do this, the PRR must: 1. Move the northbound connecting wye west, and up against the Big Four. 2. Build a new route north along the Big Four, up the west side of the fairgrounds. There isn't land available, but an elevation project over Fairgrounds stock pens is possible. 3. Cut St. Clair Avenue at the yard, and built an underpass for Cleveland Avenue. Probably wind up with the whole west end of the new Grogan Yard elevated at least a story above street level. 4. Move engine servicing down the CA&C to join the Panhandle engines at the Panhandle roundhouse. The above is fiction, but it gives us most of the features Grogan ended up with: 1. A yard that uses all the length available between the Big Four and the CA&C. 2. Elevated multiple tracks over the west margin of the fairgrounds. 3. No engine facility at the yard. It also explains to me why that one piece of the TOC via East Columbus never made sense to me, and why the TOC Western Branch wanders all over town on its way through. Remember, I'm only guessing. Rick Tipton Looking forward to the Lines West Fans Fest in Xenia April 10. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:23:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] N-5C in Pavonia Yard (former PRR 478016) Hello to all, This week, former PRR cabin car 478016, now CR 23147, has been sitting in CR's Pavonia yard in Camden NJ, just adjacent to the 27th street hump yard retarders. This cabin car is listed on Tom Wolfgang's CR cabin car site on his "active cars" page, meaning it has been seen making the rounds by railfans at some time in the past year. Local rumors speculate that this might be the car being donated by Conrail for the Childrens Garden currently under construction at the NJ State Aquarium. I can confirm that a car is being donated, but I don't know if this is the one. Anyone know? For PRR fans, the location of the Children's Garden is about 100 yards south of the old PRR retaining wall at the south end of the ferry terminal where the Pennsy used to float over its trains from Philly. The PRR retaining wall was actually left intact when the State Aquarium was built. For CR fans, the garden is a quarter mile north of the Port of Camden tracks where steel rolls are transfered between coil cars and ships. Stay tuned! And thanks to Tom for his site and Ken McCorry for the cross-reference data he provided there. Carl ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:17:38 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/27/99 >Jerry, since you have a great mailing going on here with good = >interaction, have you ever considered having everyone getting a ICQ = >number or AOL instant messenger. It could give us all the opportunity to = >talk while we are on the computer at the same time that we are reading = >or downloading. > >Wayne >102016.1343@worldnet.att.net ===== That sounds like a Chat Room, Wayne. Interesting prospect. Any reaction out there in SPFworld? Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:49:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ICQ From: Roy K Breon I'm ready. Roy Breon Pittsford NY ICQ #29220322 On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:14:16 -0400 "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> writes: >Jerry, since you have a great mailing going on here with good >interaction, have you ever considered having everyone getting a ICQ >number or AOL instant messenger. It could give us all the opportunity >to talk while we are on the computer at the same time that we are >reading or downloading. > >Wayne >102016.1343@worldnet.att.net > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:34:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The B&O In a message dated 3/26/99 11:45:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net writes: > The B&O never interchanged with the PRR on any part of the Philadelphia Erie > Line. According to the April 1952 ORER the PRR & B&O interchanged at Falls Creek (controlled by the B&O Operator at Falls Creek) on the Low Grade, Foxburg on the Allegheny Division and Kane on the P&E line. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:34:46 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] AOL messenger No Sir, Anyone can download the software...and use Instant Messenger. It's extremely user friendly. John Conklin wrote: > > Dear list members: > > Let's have it for both the PRR list and the CR list. Which would be the > best one for the list to use? Do you have to be an AOL member to get the > messenger? > > Walter Conklin - MP. 71 @ CP. Howells, NY -Southern Tier mainline- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me watch Jeopardy." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:36:34 -0500 From: John Conklin Subject: [PRR] ICQ or AOL messenger Dear list members: Let's have it for both the PRR list and the CR list. Which would be the best one for the list to use? Do you have to be an AOL member to get the messenger? Walter Conklin - MP. 71 @ CP. Howells, NY -Southern Tier mainline- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:35:24 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Instant Messenger I'm ready. Marvin Crim Anderson, IN (M Crim 1361) on AOL's Instant Messenger ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me send Instant Messages." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:38:54 +0100 From: Arne Wangen Subject: Re: [PRR] ICQ My question is as follows: If this list should be converted to a chat-group, how will members get the info they miss when not on-line? Arne ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:32:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ICQ From: Roy K Breon Good question. I don't think they can. The lists that I am aware of that have a chat session also retain the list. Some of the chat sessions are ad hoc and other are scheduled at a certain time, like a meeting. The list remains the main medium of communication between the members. Roy On Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:38:54 +0100 Arne Wangen writes: >My question is as follows: > >If this list should be converted to a chat-group, how will members get >the >info they miss when not on-line? > >Arne > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:55:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] ICQ ICQ is really easier and faster than AOL's IM. Either one would be neat. Talking Pennsy is always fun! Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:58:59 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Instant Messenger From: locoshop@juno.com I'm on there too at GEAC6000. I do very much like the AOL IM. Nice and you do not have to be a member. On Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:35:24 -0500 "Marvin E. Crim" writes: >I'm ready. > >Marvin Crim >Anderson, IN >(M Crim 1361) on AOL's Instant Messenger > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >"I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me send >Instant >Messages." > >Until Later, >Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too >MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:57:42 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] I Don't Think So... Please Rajah, ICQ...faster and easier than IM...??? I don't think so...not even "really." You must have the labels on backwards. Please check. Huber25@aol.com wrote: > > ICQ is really easier and faster than AOL's IM. Either one would be neat. > Talking Pennsy is always fun! > > Roger > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me use AOL's IM." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:00:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ICQ or AOL messenger From: Roy K Breon I tend to prefer ICQ. It has the capability of keeping personal notes in your address book for each of your addressees so you can be reminded of the sender's interests and activities. AOL/IM does not have this capability. ICQ also has the capability of sending messages to people who are not on the net at the time - store and forward it's called. Additionally, it has an on-line paging service to call people to the conference. Both can be used for individual messages or chat rooms with groups and you can switch back and forth or be in both simultaneously. The Reading RR list uses ICQ and both are free. You do not need to be a member of AOL to use AOL/IM. A third possibility is Internet Explorer's NetMeeting. This has the capability of text chat, audio (like a telephone), video, and a shared whiteboard capability. You have to have audio and video capability on your PC to use these features but you can have any combination. I have found, however, that the Microsoft servers that support this are very busy and you get lots of BUSY signals and failures to connect. When you are connected, it's very nice to have the audio chat and the video. The whiteboard would be nice to have chat members sketch out track diagrams, etc, during sessions. All of these are free and you don't need to be on any particular ISP to use them. You can't, however, use them on JUNO and perhaps on some of the other free services. Several mailing lists have regular on-line meetings at particular times using these programs. It gets a little hectic with several people trying to chat at the same time. Typed conversations get mixed and difficult to follow although all messages are tagged with the sender's address. Need to have a net control station to keep everyone in line. Maybe there are some other programs of this type as well. Roy Breon Pittsford NY ICQ - 29220322 AOL/IM - Roy Breon NetMeeting - roybreon@netzero.net On Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:36:34 -0500 John Conklin writes: >Dear list members: > >Let's have it for both the PRR list and the CR list. Which would be >the >best one for the list to use? Do you have to be an AOL member to get >the >messenger? > >Walter Conklin - MP. 71 @ CP. Howells, NY -Southern Tier mainline- > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: Instant Messenger, Chat, Etc. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 16:38:46 -0500 From: Jerry Several months ago I looked into chat room hosting software. I found that my current connection does not have the bandwidth to adequately support it. In time I may offer it, but currently it will not be a part of the services offered by my domain (the lists, "Keystone Crossings", PENNSYRR.COM). Until such time as I do offer this type of service, if someone who has chat room software wants to arrange for PRR chats at specific times, they may certainly announce them on the list. However, I do not want this list to start having discussions about how chat works, etc. Keep that off-line. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] ICQ or AOL messenger Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:39:41 -0500 Both are free.....I use both, but prefer ICQ....Just need to learn how to use all of it! Thanks, Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: John Conklin > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] ICQ or AOL messenger > Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 10:36 PM > > Dear list members: > > Let's have it for both the PRR list and the CR list. Which would be the > best one for the list to use? Do you have to be an AOL member to get the > messenger? > > Walter Conklin - MP. 71 @ CP. Howells, NY -Southern Tier mainline- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroad Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 14:56:05 -0800 From: David What was the name of the division that your design covers? David ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Instant Messenger, Chat, Etc. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 19:27:59 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/27/99 5:37 PM, doloris mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > All this talk about this chat room stuff that is being planned for >the future is probably all fine and dandy. However, I do not know how >many current subscribers you have now that are using a webtv. Myself >included, will be left out of this new format because Webtv has no means >as far as I know to have the capabilty of the new "chat room" format. >Will you be keeping the old format "list" up and running also? If not I >will sadly have to leave the group. Gary Any "chat room" project that I ever get involved with WILL NOT in any way replace the functionality of the current list. Chat Rooms are only useful for "real time" conversations when everyone is online at the same time. This is useful for a "meeting" or topical discussion that requires immediate input from all participants. Lists are great for those of us who can steal a few minutes a day while at work, without doing it in "real time". We can still participate throughout the day...not that I would ever do that! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:37:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Instant Messenger, Chat, Etc. Jerry, All this talk about this chat room stuff that is being planned for the future is probably all fine and dandy. However, I do not know how many current subscribers you have now that are using a webtv. Myself included, will be left out of this new format because Webtv has no means as far as I know to have the capabilty of the new "chat room" format. Will you be keeping the old format "list" up and running also? If not I will sadly have to leave the group. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] BRILL questions Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:44:57 -0500 (EST) For those in the area or who used to operate here: An industry on the E side of the main, S of 71st St., near Wolford Tank: was it Keystone Gear? Another industry on the W side of the main, N of Brill, at 54th St., McEttvan? This spelling is very hard to make out on the map. Thanks for any help. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Railway Chapter Updates Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:33:11 -0500 Northern Central chapter News: The fall meetings will be Sept. 12, and Nov. 14th. at 1:30 p.m. in the Historic Yorktowne Hotel. Dates for possible work at Lewiston Station, and/or on one of the cabin cars in New Freedom will be discussed. Funds have been raised to put the Board and Batten walls on the station. At this time we are assessing the amount of work we can get done with the funds. Hopefully we will do the Board and Batten, German wainscot, windows, and all doors, passenger and freight. And have money to paint after the summer. Thanks, Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:02:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Instant Messenger, Chat, Etc. From: Roy K Breon Jerry -- I think you are referring to supporting a talk group by providing a chat room on your server. You could still sponsor one by using somone else's server like ICQ or AOL Instant Messenger. All you would have to do is encourage others to register for your selected service and to publicize a meeting time and your chat address. Also might want to publicize the chat address of other members so we could set up our address books. Roy Breon On Sat, 27 Mar 99 16:38:46 -0500 Jerry writes: >Several months ago I looked into chat room hosting software. I found >that >my current connection does not have the bandwidth to adequately >support >it. In time I may offer it, but currently it will not be a part of the > >services offered by my domain (the lists, "Keystone Crossings", >PENNSYRR.COM). > >Until such time as I do offer this type of service, if someone who has > >chat room software wants to arrange for PRR chats at specific times, >they >may certainly announce them on the list. However, I do not want this >list >to start having discussions about how chat works, etc. Keep that >off-line. Thank you. > >----------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: [PRR] ICQ & AOL/IM Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:59:01 -0500 For those with interest: www.icq.com/icqtour for the free down load. www.newaol.com/aim for the free down load Thanks, Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Instant Messenger, Chat, Etc. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:04:01 -0500 The chats are fun for all the BS, that is not PRR. Also...you can vent and not get to trashed! just hung up on! Both have there good points...both have there bad. It would be great for those trying to BS off of the normal subject. Thanks, Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: doloris mittner > To: Jerry ; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Instant Messenger, Chat, Etc. > Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 5:37 PM > > Jerry, > > All this talk about this chat room stuff that is being planned for > the future is probably all fine and dandy. However, I do not know how > many current subscribers you have now that are using a webtv. Myself > included, will be left out of this new format because Webtv has no means > as far as I know to have the capabilty of the new "chat room" format. > Will you be keeping the old format "list" up and running also? If not I > will sadly have to leave the group. Gary > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Instant Messenger, Chat, Etc. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:33:41 -0500 Thanks for the response Jerry and everyone else. I would never want to entertain the thought that ICQ or AOL Instant Messanger would replace what you have going here Jerry. I just thought that it could be a nice enhancement for when we are on line pulling down messages that we could also maybe talk in real time with fellow PRR's. I like commuting with the E-Mail list as it is. I also agree that you don't want the list to become a discussion onhow chat works or related items. Just thought that if you kept a list of ID numbers for fellow PRR's we could make arrangments to how we would want to use it. Thanks for your help and advice W.F. Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Sent: Saturday, March 27, 1999 4:38 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: Instant Messenger, Chat, Etc. > Several months ago I looked into chat room hosting software. I found that > my current connection does not have the bandwidth to adequately support > it. In time I may offer it, but currently it will not be a part of the > services offered by my domain (the lists, "Keystone Crossings", > PENNSYRR.COM). > > Until such time as I do offer this type of service, if someone who has > chat room software wants to arrange for PRR chats at specific times, they > may certainly announce them on the list. However, I do not want this list > to start having discussions about how chat works, etc. Keep that > off-line. Thank you. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] The B&O Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:02:44 -0500 I apologize. You are right. I forgot, the PRR did interchange with the B&O, but my map indicates that it was at Ridgeway and Johnsonburg. Do you show this any where in your timetable? I was focusing to far east. :) Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net>; ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 27, 1999 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The B&O > In a message dated 3/26/99 11:45:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net writes: > > > The B&O never interchanged with the PRR on any part of the Philadelphia Erie > > Line. > According to the April 1952 ORER the PRR & B&O interchanged at Falls Creek > (controlled by the B&O Operator at Falls Creek) on the Low Grade, Foxburg on > the Allegheny Division and Kane on the P&E line. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. > Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Get CHAT discussion off this list -- NOW Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 07:00:05 -0500 From: Jerry Please cease the thread about the pros and cons of chat, icq, instant messenger, etc. It is way off topic. Get it off the list! If someone puts together a chat session, they can certainly post the date, time, and particulars here, along with pointers on how to participate...but do it all in one post. If anyone has questions, they should contact the poster off-list. To reassure everyone, this list is not being replaced. Chat "might" augment it; it would be an additional service. To summarize: GET THE CHAT DISCUSSION OFF-LIST...NOW! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:56:40 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] PRR Steam Photo Roster Available (fwd) Some of you may not read misc.transport.rail.americas, so I figured I ought to forward this... -D ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 27 Mar 1999 14:43:53 GMT From: Clint Chamberlin Subject: PRR Steam Photo Roster Available Newsgroups: misc.transport.rail.americas Thanks to the efforts of Budd Laws in A.B.P.R, I have been able to put together the largest PRR Steam Photo Roster on the net. Since winter is "almost" over, I am repacing my Snow Rail Scenes Feature with this 300+ roster. Follow the URL below With any effort this size, there are bound to be errors and possibly missing photos. Please let me know. Enjoy... __________________________________________________________________ | Clint Chamberlin | "Not tonite, honey... I have a modem" | | NORTH EAST RAILFAN | Internet: cchamberlin@railfan.net | | Mountaintop, PA | WWW: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 15:42:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The B&O In a message dated 3/27/99 9:32:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net writes: > I apologize. You are right. I forgot, the PRR did interchange with the B&O, > but my map indicates that it was at Ridgeway and Johnsonburg. Do you show > this any where in your timetable? I was focusing to far east. :) > Wayne, we are forget some of the details at times. I am using the list of interchange points published in the ORER not a timetable. The PRR and B&O did interchange in Johnsonburg according to the ORER but it was not a direct connection. The interchange was via the Erie. There is no listing of an interchange with the B&O in Ridgeway either under the PRR or the B&O. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 15:22:21 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] PRR Whistle Posts and Crossbucks Dear PRR Gang: In the mid 1980's, and model company called Wabash Valley produced a set of HO scale PRR "keystone" whistle post signs and the wide angle crossbucks. They came two sets per package and ran for about $2. They were made from some type of plastic (somewhat flexible). All in all, they were pretty good considering the relatively low cost. I bought one package thinking that I could get more later on....I assumed that Wabash Valley would be like Athearn or Atlas and be around for a long time. Well, I learned an important lesson about small model railroad companies and their sparatic life spans. But I still only have one set of these whistle signs and crossbucks. Does anyone know if these are being made by someone else right now? I know that Custom Railway Supply had a some crossbucks and whistle signs etched in brass but they were part of larger brass etching that included station and tower signs. Any information would be appreciated by me and probably other HO modelers in this list! Thanks in advance! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:27:12 EST Subject: [PRR] operations on the Renovo and E&A Divisions. Here is the dispatchers report from Saturday's operation session on my circa 1946 recreation of the PRR. I think you will find it interesting. Your comments are solicited. Subj: Dispatchers Report Date: 3/28/99 7:48:04 PM EST From: valleyln@erie.net (Bradley White) Reply-to: valleyln@erie.net (Bradley White) To: rbell@velocity.net (Rick Bell), geshick@velocity.net, flotte@stratos.net, jer@smellycat.com, ODyard@aol.com The following is the Dispatchers report for 3-27-1999 The session started at 12:01 AM 3-27-47 NYC extra east from staging 12:01 AM NYC extra east arrived DJ 12:30 AM NYC extra east from DJ 12:50 AM B&LE extra west from staging 1:20 AM To Linesville NYC extra east arrived staging 2:27 AM NKP extra west from staging 2:33 AM NKP extra west arrived OD 3:15 AM B&LE extra east from Linesville 3:06 AM B&LE extra east arrived staging 3:33 AM W-5 OS Irv 3:35 AM NKP extra west from DJ 3:36 AM To Staging NKP extra west arrived staging 3:55 AM EP-1 OS New Castle 4:25 AM W-5 OS Corry 4:33 AM EP-1 Arrived DJ 4:48 AM Coal extra west from staging 5:20 AM Pass W-5 at Waterford Coal extra west arrived OD 5:59 AM 970 OS Union Station 6:05 AM 5 Min. Late Morning all stop local 970 OS Corry 6:36 AM 1 Min. Late 970 OS IRV 6:41 AM On Time 581 OS IRV 7:36 AM On Time W-5 arrived OD 8:05 AM 1hr & 5min. Late Delay at Waterford 581 OS Corry 8:15 AM On Time 581 Arrived Union Station 8:22 AM On Time EL-1 OS DJ 8:25 AM Local FRT to Linesville 981 OS Corry 8:25 AM 5 Min. Late Train to Oil City Coal Extra east OS MO 9:25 AM MTY Hoppers to Staging Coal Extra east arrived Staging 9:45 AM EK-1 OS MO 9:58 AM Local FRT to Corry 2nd EP-1 OS New Castle 11:00 AM EL-1 Arrived DJ 11:08 AM Local FRT From Linesville 2nd EP-1 Arrived DJ 11:55 AM BEC-1 OS IRV 12:45 PM 1hr & 18 min. Late Advance EP-2 OS DJ 1:00 PM EK-1 arrived OD 1:15 PM Local FRT From Corry Advance EP-2 arrived Staging 1:20 PM 415 OS New Castle 1:22 PM 1hr & 3 min. Late All stop local BEC-1 OS Corry 1:35 PM 2hrs &5 min. Late 415 Arrived Union Station 1:45 PM 1hr & 15 min. Late BEC-1 arrived OD 2:10 PM 2hrs & 36 min. Late BEC-2 OS New Castle 2:30 PM 14 min. Late BEC-2 Arrived DJ 2:53 PM 33 min. Late That is all I have. There seemed to be a bottle neck at OD yard. There are several windows after the morning Passenger trains to run locals to Corry and Linesville. It seemed that it worked running the interchange trains between 12:01 AM and 3:00 AM. If we had a third cab we could run a local to Waterford to clear out some cars. This train could be sent out after the arival of W-2 at Erie. Brad White Erie, PA Where the trains still run in the Street ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:34:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Book Hi, John and the rest of us duped into ordering from this guy. I think it's the same book I ordered too. I also was patient and waited way over two years before inquiring as to the status of the book. I received no answer from the guy. I wrote several letters and finally got an answer. It was very rude and told me basically that he had the check, I would get the book when it was ready and it didn't look like the book would be ready for another year or two and that I couldn't have a refund. Like I said, he was rather rude in his letters to me. I believe after I filed a formal complaint about his "MAIL FRAUD", as the Postal Inspector called it, he was made aware of his error in being required to return the check or supply the merchandise. I did receive a check for the book. The book still has not been published and I personally think the guy's a jerk. There's been nothing said or done about the book almost since the beginning when the Keystone supplied the flyer with the pre-publication information about the book. I would suggest you call your local U.S. Post Office and file the proper papers with the Postal Inspector. Maybe if enough of us do that he'll either, A) return everyones checks, B) get off his can and publish the book, C) give everyone an update with a reasonable publishing date or (MY PERSONAL FAVORITE) D) put him away where all disreputable, dishonest and rude people belong. Book publishing sometimes takes a longer time than anticipated but this guy's really abusing the basic customer trust thing completely, having made us wait over 10 years. I think we've all been patient long enough and something needs to be done about this guy. Start writing letters to him and checking with your Postal Inspector. This is strictly my opinion and is based on my experience with this person after having to force him to refund my money. I'm very sorry he never got around to publishing the book as it sounded just like what we've all been eagerly needing for our modeling and thirst for Pennsy knowledge. My 2¢ Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:29:15 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: [PRR] PRR Book Some years ago (10?), I ordered a book on PRR passenger cars from a flyer in the Keystone. The check was cashed and I saw a couple of updates but that was all. Does anybody know what happened? John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:28:50 EST Subject: [PRR] operations on the Renovo and E&A Divisions. Here is the dispatchers report from Saturday's operation session on my circa 1946 recreation of the PRR. I think you will find it interesting. Your comments are solicited. Subj: Dispatchers Report Date: 3/28/99 7:48:04 PM EST From: valleyln@erie.net (Bradley White) Reply-to: valleyln@erie.net (Bradley White) To: rbell@velocity.net (Rick Bell), geshick@velocity.net, flotte@stratos.net, jer@smellycat.com, ODyard@aol.com The following is the Dispatchers report for 3-27-1999 The session started at 12:01 AM 3-27-47 NYC extra east from staging 12:01 AM NYC extra east arrived DJ 12:30 AM NYC extra east from DJ 12:50 AM B&LE extra west from staging 1:20 AM To Linesville NYC extra east arrived staging 2:27 AM NKP extra west from staging 2:33 AM NKP extra west arrived OD 3:15 AM B&LE extra east from Linesville 3:06 AM B&LE extra east arrived staging 3:33 AM W-5 OS Irv 3:35 AM NKP extra west from DJ 3:36 AM To Staging NKP extra west arrived staging 3:55 AM EP-1 OS New Castle 4:25 AM W-5 OS Corry 4:33 AM EP-1 Arrived DJ 4:48 AM Coal extra west from staging 5:20 AM Pass W-5 at Waterford Coal extra west arrived OD 5:59 AM 970 OS Union Station 6:05 AM 5 Min. Late Morning all stop local 970 OS Corry 6:36 AM 1 Min. Late 970 OS IRV 6:41 AM On Time 581 OS IRV 7:36 AM On Time W-5 arrived OD 8:05 AM 1hr & 5min. Late Delay at Waterford 581 OS Corry 8:15 AM On Time 581 Arrived Union Station 8:22 AM On Time EL-1 OS DJ 8:25 AM Local FRT to Linesville 981 OS Corry 8:25 AM 5 Min. Late Train to Oil City Coal Extra east OS MO 9:25 AM MTY Hoppers to Staging Coal Extra east arrived Staging 9:45 AM EK-1 OS MO 9:58 AM Local FRT to Corry 2nd EP-1 OS New Castle 11:00 AM EL-1 Arrived DJ 11:08 AM Local FRT From Linesville 2nd EP-1 Arrived DJ 11:55 AM BEC-1 OS IRV 12:45 PM 1hr & 18 min. Late Advance EP-2 OS DJ 1:00 PM EK-1 arrived OD 1:15 PM Local FRT From Corry Advance EP-2 arrived Staging 1:20 PM 415 OS New Castle 1:22 PM 1hr & 3 min. Late All stop local BEC-1 OS Corry 1:35 PM 2hrs &5 min. Late 415 Arrived Union Station 1:45 PM 1hr & 15 min. Late BEC-1 arrived OD 2:10 PM 2hrs & 36 min. Late BEC-2 OS New Castle 2:30 PM 14 min. Late BEC-2 Arrived DJ 2:53 PM 33 min. Late That is all I have. There seemed to be a bottle neck at OD yard. There are several windows after the morning Passenger trains to run locals to Corry and Linesville. It seemed that it worked running the interchange trains between 12:01 AM and 3:00 AM. If we had a third cab we could run a local to Waterford to clear out some cars. This train could be sent out after the arival of W-2 at Erie. Brad White Erie, PA Where the trains still run in the Street ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:32:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Book In a message dated 3/28/99 10:22:55 PM Central Standard Time, Huber25@aol.com writes: << The book still has not been published and I personally think the guy's a jerk. >> I believe you are referring to two guys, Charles Blardone, Jr., and Peter Tilp who produced the bible, the Pennsylvania Raillroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering guide. Both have contributed a great deal to the history of the PRR. I presume they are volunteers. My understanding (perhaps wrong) is that there was a general return of funds many years ago. I inquired and have not followed up,but I moved three times since my original check was sent, so I can't blame them for not finding me with a refund. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:14:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Whistle Posts and Crossbucks In a message dated 3/28/99 2:30:42 PM Central Standard Time, ted.andrews@woolpert.com writes: << But I still only have one set of these whistle signs and crossbucks. Does anyone know if these are being made by someone else right now? >> I have taken another approach. Signs Galore has three Pennsy sheets,one including the signs you mention. Get some .010 styrene, affix the sheet to the styrene with matte adhesive spray, and trim. Mount the crossbucks to brass rod and paint. Very delicate looking. Amazing how many people ask about them on my module at shows (ignoring the rest of the module, BTW). Signs Galore is at http://www.tttrains.com/signsgalore/index.htm. Not a commercial, just a tip. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Book Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 01:26:37 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 11:33 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Book << The book still has not been published and I personally think the guy's a jerk. >> I believe you are referring to two guys, Charles Blardone, Jr., and Peter Tilp who produced the bible, the Pennsylvania Raillroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering guide. ---------------------------------------------------------- That's correct. I talked w/ Chuck Blardone several years ago, nice guy, apparently he and Tilp had a falling out. I understand Tilp also had some personal problems with his family (Dad) which lead to financial problems. I talked w/ Tilp a couple of times, He was sort of strange, then again aren't we all. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Railway Age Vol. 105 No. 24 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 08:14:09 -0500 From: Jerry I'm looking for someone with a clean, original copy of "Railway Age", volume 105, number 24. I'm not sure of the year of publication, but it's likely late 1930's or early 1940's. It contains an article on the new steam locomotive facility at Harrisburg. I'd like to borrow it to create a clean copy and for hi-res scanning of the photos, to help me model the loco facilities at Harrisburg. It contains the measurements of all of the building in the steam facility, as well as descriptions of a lot of the equipment. I have a poor photocopy which has the right 1" or so missing from every page. There is a lot of crucial data missing. Please contact me direct if you can help. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:13:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Book Bob, Al and all. You're right. Chuck Blardone was originally involved and I understand there was a problem between the two men when the project started getting into delays. My knowledge of Mr. Blardone is that he's a fine person and has contributed much to Pennsy fans. I meant no discredit to him as I have much respect for his work. However, Peter Tilp is the person that I dealt with and had problems with. He never mentioned any personal problems and stated that there were problems with photos, drawings, etc. He said new information surfaced and that was the delay. I can understand that causing a delay and would, under normal circumstances, appreciate an author or publisher being diligent enough to postpone publishing a work for additional information on the subject. Like I said originally, I can understand delays in publishing, but this many years is rediculous. As to your moving and him not being able to find you I can only say I don't think that's the situation. He "found" us all by way of the Keystone. I would think the Keystone would be willing and feel responsible for making certain we all were notified should he want to get a refund to us. The PRRT&HS is a fine and respectable group and the Keystone is a great credit to a small group of volunteers. I'm certain they are not responsible for this one person's actions. He flatly stated "he would not give refunds and was under no obligation to do so". I'm truly sorry the book never got published as it would have been something we've all been wanting and still are wanting. What a shame many contributed to the work with photos, drawings and information to have it all never get published. My 2¢ Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:46:41 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Tower Sheets for COLA Hi all, The latest Model RR Planning from Kalmbach has a neat article on modeling from the sheets tower operators use to record trains. Kind of a "day in the life" thing. I would REALLY LIKE that sort of information for COLA tower, Columbia PA, particularly for the years around 1944. Can anyone help? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Poster Prints Now Available Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 08:22:02 -0500 From: Jerry A few weeks ago I mentioned my getting a new hi-res color printer. It's been installed and is now in service. I am now offering photo-quality poster-size prints of timetable covers, vintage ads, calendar images, etc. These prints are on glossy A2-size (23 3/8" high by 16 1/2" wide) stock. I scan an original image at very high resolution so that when I enlarge it I can maintain at least 300 dots per inch of resolution. My layout is based on the Sept. 26, 1954 timetable. I found an original copy on eBay. I scanned in the cover and blew it up to poster size for display in my train room. It shows the St. Louisan on the Middle Division crossing one of those classic skewed stone arch bridges over the Little Juniata River. Even I was "floored" by the quality of the print. The scanner and printer bring the image to life as the 40-year-old original can not. Over the next few days I will be listing all of the prints that I have available. I don't have any other timetables, but can produce a print from any supplied original. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/posters/index.html for more information. Wow! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Correction to latest Keystone Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:02:51 -0500 PRR Talk List In the article "A Short Course on PRR Signals" by Bill Strassner in the Spring 1999, Vol. 12, No 1 edition of "The Keystone" there is an error in Figure 3, page 58 in that the aspect showing Medium Clear should have been Approach Medium. This is clearly explained in the text, the original artwork was correct, etc. However, the gremlins got to it again as there was some editorial mix up, graphics substitution, or whatever. I'm posting this for Bill while he sits out the game in the penalty box. So consider this a check against the power play. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] X-42's Assigned As Mail Storage Cars Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 11:20:12 -0500 From: Jerry In the Q&A section in the front of the new issue of The Keystone, there are two mentions of X-42 box cars assigned as Mail Storage Cars. Once comment indicates that when these cars where new, and assigned to this service with Passenger Service, they were painted Tuscan (not Freight Car Color) complete with stripes! Can anyone verify this? Any photo references? Did anyone ever make an HO plastic kit in this scheme? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:19:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Book In a message dated 3/29/99 0:36:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << believe you are referring to two guys, Charles Blardone, Jr., and Peter Tilp who produced the bible, the Pennsylvania Raillroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering guide. Both have contributed a great deal to the history of the PRR. I presume they are volunteers. My understanding (perhaps wrong) is that there was a general return of funds many years ago. I inquired and have not followed up,but I moved three times since my original check was sent, so I can't blame them for not finding me with a refund >> Bob: This was a second book and while Chuck was initially involved with it, he withdrew from the project because of unspecified, to me anyway, problems. I don't think Peter was part ot this project but another individual whose name I don't recall. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:42:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Poster Prints Now Available In a message dated 3/29/99 11:33:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << calendar images >> Jerry: Be careful with the calendar copies. The PRR did not own the copyright to most of the artwork. They paid a license fee. Dan Cupper may be able to provide more details on this. Without checking his book on Grief Teller, I seem to recall he did discuss the ownership of the copyright and the copyright went with ownership of the original artwork. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Poster Prints Now Available Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 13:43:38 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/29/99 1:15 PM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >>Be careful with the calendar copies. The PRR did not own the copyright to >>most of the artwork. They paid a license fee. Dan Cupper may be able to >>provide more details on this. Without checking his book on Grief Teller, I >>seem to recall he did discuss the ownership of the copyright and the >>copyright >>went with ownership of the original artwork. > >Warning appreciated. I have talked with Dan about this. It is indeed a >grey area. It is my understanding, through him, that "most, if not all" >of the rights have not been renewed. Big faux pas...the edge of my hand hit the Enter key and sent this off into cyberspace before I was done editing it. I want to make it VERY clear, that Dan Cupper should be exonerated in this regard. My intent was to report that I had discussed the matter with him for an opinion. That conversation was between myself and him and should not be construed to others as "Dan Cupper said it was okay". This is a grey area. Anyone who proceeds, such as myself, takes on the risk themselves. My planned use is not to mass produce nor publish these works in a book. Dan, my apologies in advance for not getting this all into the first post. Just hope you see this message before you react to seeing your name in lights in the first!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Poster Prints Now Available Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 13:15:35 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/29/99 12:42 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >Be careful with the calendar copies. The PRR did not own the copyright to >most of the artwork. They paid a license fee. Dan Cupper may be able to >provide more details on this. Without checking his book on Grief Teller, I >seem to recall he did discuss the ownership of the copyright and the >copyright >went with ownership of the original artwork. Warning appreciated. I have talked with Dan about this. It is indeed a grey area. It is my understanding, through him, that "most, if not all" of the rights have not been renewed. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:34:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42's Assigned As Mail Storage Cars In a message dated 3/29/99 10:33:04 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Once comment indicates that when these cars where new, and assigned to this service with Passenger Service, they were painted Tuscan (not Freight Car Color) complete with stripes! Can anyone verify this? Any photo references? >> We discussed this a while back on the list. A photo appears in Wayners book "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" on Page 6. There was also a photo in the Keystone at least 10 years ago when they reviewed the brass version when it came out (I was fortunate to buy it at a large discount in the San Diego area). That article said it was in tuscan red, although no color photos have been found. However, observing the lettering (PRR Passenger style) and the striping (two stripes at passenger car beltrail level), I wouldn't doubt it was tuscan--at least that is what I plan to paint it if I ever get around to it. Regarding plastic versions, the answer is no. If Sunshine or someone would produce a resin X40b 60-foot merchandise car, I believe the ends and roof would be the same--have to check the doors. Actually, I collected commercial ends and doors and some old Front Range roofs to try and cobble up an X40b--you might be able to do the same for the X42. I stopped at doing the weld lines on styrene,but it could be done. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:39:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42's Assigned As Mail Storage Cars Jerry: The X42 was listed as passenger equipment. The cars did not appear in the ORER but were in the Passenger Equipment Register. The only photo I recall is in Wayner's pictorial of PRR equipment and it is B&W. As there were only 10 cars and they were unique to the Pennsy, no one has made them in plastic and probably will not. There is not a large enough market to warrant the investment in injection molding dies. This is an ideal candidate for a resin car but to date has only been available in brass. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:16:54 EST Subject: [PRR] Keystones, Builder Plates Gentlemen, A number of you have generously helped with information as I was inventorying items from the late Jack Fravert's gargantuan collections. We are now far enough along to issue lists of some of the categories, and to begin accepting bids in those categories. Therefore, I will send via email, upon request, any of the following lists: 1. Locomotive number plates, including keystones from a K4, a Q2, and a T1. 2. Locomotive builder plates, including PRR oval plates from Altoona, Juniata, and Baldwin. 3. Locomotive class plates (these are unique to the L&N). 3. Miscellaneous railroad hardware, including lanterns. All other classes of Jack's material (books, employee timetables, public timetables, photos, slides, and movies) need significantly more cataloging, and lists are not ready at this time. Thanks again for all your help and interest in organizing this material. Rick Tipton Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Aborted PRR Heavyweigh Pullman Book Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 15:13:46 -0500 From: Jerry Chuck Blardone has "ears" on our list! He just sent me his version of the aborted Heavyweight book. It reads: ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 03/29 2:38 PM Received: 03/29 3:06 PM From: Charles Blardone, xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.com To: jerry@dsop.com Jerry: I hear there's been some controversy of late concerning the book on heavyweight Pullmans that Peter Tilp and I were planning to publish. It was announced years ago in "The Keystone", soliciting advance orders, and if I remember correctly, the cost was about $50 per book. Here's all I can tell you, and 'taint much, I'm afraid. Tilp and I were to share the work. He was to provide all the Pullman data; I was to supply all the Pennsy information. We were both to come up with necessary photos. I was to produce about 50 detailed floor plan drawings and do the layout, plus liason with the printer. Early on in the project, I became suspicious as to how finances were to be controlled, and since my share of the cost was to be about $30,000 - a LOT of money - I proposed that Tilp handle all the financing, handling advance orders, and garner the profits. I was to be a contractor, with my time paid for on an hourly basis. We agreed to this arrangement. My "reward" was to be in seeing the book publiished, plus a return for hours spent, were to be my compensation. Safe for me, and I'd have a product that we'd be proud of. At that time, I had no reason to believe this wouldn't work to everyone's -especially our customers-benefit. Peter accepted the orders, and the paperwork began to flow. I had a couple of Sections of the book laid out. Then the well stopped producing. I continued with the drawings, in expectation of the project's resumption. It never restarted. From what I've been able to subsequently piece together, Tilp ran into severe financial trouble - which I believe he expected, but never let on. The advance order monies went into his personal finances to afford some relief, but things went beyond that and he sold much of his private collection of railroadiana to raise money. If any part of the book exists, I don't know it. It's my belief that it'll never be published. A few of the fellows that sent in advance ordres had their monet returned, but it took a lot of trouble to get it. Several fellows have complained to the Post Office, alleging mail fraud, and the USPS is investigating (whatever that means). Anyone having a complaint against B&T Publicatiopns should contact: U.S.Postal Service, R.J.Hang, Manager, Operations Support Group, Office of the Postal Inspector, Newark, N>J> 07175-0001 Reference number for this complaint is; N IS099 036 SOO37768 CO312980 For the record, I never received one penny of advance monies or for any work (including the 50 drawings) from Tilp. If there's any recovery, it should be directed at Mr.Tilp. I do not know Mr.Tilp's whereabouts or how he can be reached, but perhaps Bob Wayner of Brooklyn does. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystones, Builder Plates Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 15:45:39 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/29/99 3:16 PM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: >All other classes of Jack's material (books, employee timetables, public >timetables, photos, slides, and movies) need significantly more cataloging, >and lists are not ready at this time. Rick, I'm going to pass on the loco hardware, but I am particular hot for 1954 ETT's. Please keep me in mind. Also, photos of the PRR in York, Pa.; York County; and Harrisburg. Former two for a book for the PRRT&HS, latter for my own modeling. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:23:01 EST Subject: [PRR] Facts On The PRR Book I have the flyer here for the book. It was to be called Pennsylvania RR Classic Heavyweight Pullmans. The flyer was in the Keystone. I mailed my check on 10/20/1990. I patiently waited 2 years before inquiring about the status. It was to have been done by B&T Publications but obviously never was finished. The last communication with them, November 16, 1992, stated, "Believe that this work will be done-because it will. Be patient. Thanks.". The letter was signed by Mr. Tilp. What a shame that his "5,000 hours into this project" was wasted and so much trust was lost and abused. We all could have greatly benefited from his book. I hope what ever personal problems he had are resolved and that someday the book gets published. Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:09:15 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Copyright of PRR calendar artwork (long) Jerry wrote: > > On 3/29/99 1:15 PM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: > > >>Be careful with the calendar copies. >Warning appreciated. I have talked with Dan about this. It is indeed a > >grey area. It is my understanding, through him, that "most, if not all" > >of the rights have not been renewed. > Big faux pas...the edge of my hand hit the Enter key and sent this off > into cyberspace before I was done editing it. That conversation was between myself and him and should not be construed to others as "Dan Cupper said it was okay". This > is a grey area. > Dan, my apologies in advance for not getting this all into the first > post. Just hope you see this message before you react to seeing your name in lights in the first!!! > Not a problem, Jerry, and I don't mind if we do discuss this openly in this space now. Let me try to share what I do know and what I don't know (there's lots more of the latter than the former), and what is gray. It may help to reduce the number of back-and-forth what-if? and what-about? messages. Here goes. 1. PRR *did* own the original copyrights to the calendar paintings. When PRR contracted with the Osborne Co., Grif Teller's employer, the fee paid to Osborne covered original artwork, copyright ownership, publishing of the calendars and all periperals, and rights to all subsidiary uses. Grif Teller's role was that he was painting under what legally we would call "work made for hire." Just as a newspaper reporter would not own the rights to a story he or she wrote for his employer, so Grif did not own the rights to the calendar paintings. [To understand the difference further, be aware that Grif painted hundreds of small landscapes, which he did on his own time. In those cases, he owned the copyright because he was not painting for an employer. He sold many of those landscapes and the copyright, if anyone cared, went along with them.] 2. Copyright is a complicated issue and that's why there are people who can make a career out of being a copyright attorney. The copyright law was changed in 1978 and the provisions are different now from what they were when the PRR paintings were originally produced. The old law, which [it's my understanding] still applies to works prior to 1978, held that a work could be copyrighted for an initial 28-year period, and when that time elapsed, it was renewable for a second 28-year term. The only way to really verify the status of a painting, (or book, poem, musical composition, photograph, etc.) is to check it with the copyright office in D.C., and there's a fee to do so. If you calculate when the expirations of the PRR paintings' copyrights came due, some of them are beyond the 56-year life of the original law, and some are not. So 1925-26's Speed and Security by Harold Brett (which was painted in 1924 and thus copyrighted that year) would have had a copyright life that lasted 28 years, or to 1952, renewable for 28 years, or to 1980. That is, assuming that anybody at PRR or successor Penn Central bothered to renew the copyright. Not a certainty since PRR/PC did not renew the copyright on the keystone logo. In any event, by the numbers, the 1925-26 painting is theoretically in the public domain and is thus theoretically "safe" to reproduce. 3. My suspicion is that none of the copyrights was renewed, and since the last wall-calendar painting was painted in 1957 for the 1958 issue, the original 28-year term would have expired in 1985. Whether anybody bothered to renew it upon its expiration in that year is unknown -- Conrail owns that original oil painting, and I doubt that CR was even aware of the question. It's also unknown to me what would have happened had Conrail tried to do so, since -- although it ended up with physical possession of several of the original paintings and does legally own them -- CR was emphatically *not* the corporate successor to PRR, original copyright holder. 4. The legal successor to PRR was the Penn Central Co., which later changed its name to American Premier Underwriters, a Cincinnati-based insurance company. APU owns the largest single group of original PRR calendar paintings, and while it fought the PRR keystone copyright issue in court, it has not bothered anyone who has reproduced the calendars. When I was conducting research for the Crossroads of Commerce book, PC/APU people were well aware of what I was doing and, in fact, we each traded information that the other needed. In that way, the company was supportive of my work and made no effort to establish any claim to the images or ask for any license fee. Your mileage may vary -- in other words, my experience can be instructive but it should not be considered to be confirmation or approval for anyone else. 5. The copyright situation is completely different for PRR paintings that Grif did under commission for fans in later years, starting in 1974 and continuing almost until his death in 1993. When he sold the paintings, the rights went with them. Nobody should even think about trying to reproduce any of those without permission of the copyright owner or he'll find himself on the unpleasant side of the judge in a federal court. 6. And that's the other thing to keep in mind. The copyright law is a federal law, so anybody who's thinking about taking a risk monetarily or legally should think long and hard, and remember that I'm not a lawyer. If you want to be certain, pay somebody to give you competent legal counsel. If you want to read more about copyright, the place to go is the Library of Congress website, since it is the Library of Congress that administers copyright registration. Hope this helps rather than confuses. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 22 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Towers Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:00:07 -0500 Urgent---- My friend in the penalty box needs help ---- anyone with a Middle and Pittsburgh Div PRR ETT for before 1935, preferably before 1932. There were two towers in Altoona that got smooshed. He needs their tel calls, which would be listed in the ETT back then. Respond off list to: prrsignals@adelphia.net Thanx for your assistance. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] X 42 paint schemes Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:48:33 -0800 There were at least three paint schemes that I have seen photo evidence to prove. The earliest is a keystone in ball. Next is the gold lettered passenger style with gold stripes Next a shadow keystone I also believe a plain keystone was applied. The first scheme was the one I asked about some time back on this list. I believe it was only applied for a year or so. My question was wether this was frieght car color or tuscan red. My belief is that they were painted the same color as the express boxcars i.e. X29s. When the gold lettering was applied the ends and roof were black and the sides tuscan red, I believe. The shadow keystone scheme is visible in one, maybe both of the color guide books. I need to look to be sure. --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:09:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42's Assigned As Mail Storage Cars Jerry, Without looking, i know for a fact there's a color photo of this car in the Morning Sun PRR Cokor Guide one, though i don't recall if if shows the original colors or not. But it's certainly still in passemger service. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:22:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Towers Antis, East Altoona, RO Interlocking, JK Block Station, BO Block Station are listed in my 1935 Middle Division ETT. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1915 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [PRR] Calanders Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:21:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01BE7A32.7B324C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To the group a question. A few years ago, I used to purchase calendars from a company called = AudioVisual out of New York. They used to advertise in Model Railroader = Mag. I have not seen their advertisements for a few years now. They had = the best PRR and NYC Railroad calendars I have seen. When I was in = Williamsport last year the folks at Bowser Trains said that the mad = passed away and his widow gave everything away to historical societies. = Any truth that anyone knows? I still have some calendars wrapped in = their original wrapping. The pictures made for great pictures framed and = hung on the wall. Especially the past few years when the front picture = was published in color. Wayne F. Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01BE7A32.7B324C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To the group a = question.
 
A few years ago, I used to purchase = calendars=20 from a company called AudioVisual out of New York. They used to = advertise in=20 Model Railroader Mag. I have not seen their advertisements for a few = years now.=20 They had the best PRR and NYC Railroad calendars I have seen. When I was = in=20 Williamsport last year the folks at Bowser Trains said that the mad = passed away=20 and his widow gave everything away to historical societies. Any truth = that=20 anyone knows? I still have some calendars wrapped in their original = wrapping.=20 The pictures made for great pictures framed and hung on the wall. = Especially the=20 past few years when the front picture was published in = color.
 
Wayne F. Dibert
102016.1343@worldnet.att.net=
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01BE7A32.7B324C80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:07:20 EST Subject: [PRR] E8's with two headlights On P.35 of the Railroad Color History Pennsylvania Railroad is a head on view of E8 #4271. This engine has a nose door headlight blanked out and painted over. I have heard two conflicting stories. One say's it was a short lived experiment. The local hobby shop know it all say's it was for use on the Southwind and dictated by the other RR's involved. Since the picture shows it entering St. Louis I find this second idea implausible. Does anyone have any facts regarding this engine? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:04:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Calanders Wayne, Hello, it is true that the man who published these calendars passed away. The calendars ceased being issued in 1996 maybe 1997. After a year or two hiatis the calenders are being produced as usual. I picked up my 1999 back in December at a train show. I am not sure if they are able to be purchased at this time as they may be sold out. Someone else may know where to contact them. Gary. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:35:18 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Audio-Visual Calendars Audio-Visual Design Calendars are being produced once again. I've seen them at a couple of shows and have a PRR calendar for 1999. I don't know if they have a web site...but there is a couple handling them again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Wayne Dibert wrote: > > To the group a question. > > A few years ago, I used to purchase calendars from a company called > AudioVisual out of New York. They used to advertise in Model > Railroader Mag. I have not seen their advertisements for a few years > now. They had the best PRR and NYC Railroad calendars I have seen. > When I was in Williamsport last year the folks at Bowser Trains said > that the mad passed away and his widow gave everything away to > historical societies. Any truth that anyone knows? I still have some > calendars wrapped in their original wrapping. The pictures made for > great pictures framed and hung on the wall. Especially the past few > years when the front picture was published in color. > > Wayne F. Dibert > 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me watch for Audio-Visual." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too MCrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Whistle Posts and Crossbucks Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 21:27:22 -0800 From: David Ted, How about using the crossbucks you have to make a mold to do your own? David Lind Oak Harbor, WA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:49:37 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Calanders PRR calendars are annually produced by Cedco. They are all color and I have been buying them for several years. They also do SF, SP, and several other RR subjects. I have no association with them. I just like their PRR caladars. I have even built some models from them! They have a website (www.cedco.com, of course). Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Wayne Dibert wrote: > > To the group a question. > > A few years ago, I used to purchase calendars from a company called AudioVisual out of New York. They used to advertise in Model Railroader Mag. I have not seen their advertisements for a few years now. They had the best PRR and NYC Railroad calendars I have seen. When I was in Williamsport last year the folks at Bowser Trains said that the mad passed away and his widow gave everything away to historical societies. Any truth that anyone knows? I still have some calendars wrapped in their original wrapping. The pictures made for great pictures framed and hung on the wall. Especially the past few years when the front picture was published in color. > > Wayne F. Dibert > 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > part1.txt Name: part1.txt > Type: Plain Text (text/plain) -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:50:45 EST5EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Calenders Carl died and his widow sold the outfit to another person and they are still running it. As far as I can remember, it is still Audiovisual Designs. Bill >To the group a question. >A few years ago, I used to purchase calendars from a company called = AudioVisual out of New York. They used to advertise in Model Railroader = Mag. I have not seen their advertisements for a few years now. They had = the best PRR and NYC Railroad calendars I have seen. When I was in = Williamsport last year the folks at Bowser Trains said that the mad = passed away and his widow gave everything away to historical societies. = Any truth that anyone knows? I still have some calendars wrapped in = their original wrapping. The pictures made for great pictures framed and = hung on the wall. Especially the past few years when the front picture = was published in color. Wayne F. Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01BE7A32.7B324C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To the group a = question.
 
A few years ago, I used to purchase = calendars=20 from a company called AudioVisual out of New York. They used to = advertise in=20 Model Railroader Mag. I have not seen their advertisements for a few = years now.=20 They had the best PRR and NYC Railroad calendars I have seen. When I was = in=20 Williamsport last year the folks at Bowser Trains said that the mad = passed away=20 and his widow gave everything away to historical societies. Any truth = that=20 anyone knows? I still have some calendars wrapped in their original = wrapping.=20 The pictures made for great pictures framed and hung on the wall. = Especially the=20 past few years when the front picture was published in = color.
 
Wayne F. Dibert
102016.1343@worldnet.att.net=
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01BE7A32.7B324C80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] X 42 paint schemes Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:55:38 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 29 Mar, "Greg Stone" wrote: > There were at least three paint schemes that I have seen photo evidence to > prove. > The earliest is a keystone in ball. > Next is the gold lettered passenger style with gold stripes > Next a shadow keystone > I also believe a plain keystone was applied. I'm interested in the dates of the above, if anybody knows them. The online photo referenced from Rob Schoenberg's page http://alsprr.railfan.net/MyPics/X42_2546.jpg shows what looks like a plain keystone but with late shadow keystone lettering. Of course, Rob also has the diagram for the car online at http://PRR.Railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X42 for those of you interested in bashing one together. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:59:31 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Calendars Wayne, Sorry for the confusion. I did not mean to imply that Audio Visual Designs metamorphosed into Cedco. I only thought to make people aware of another source of PRR calendars for those needing a mid-winter PRR fix. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Alan Buchan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy > Miller > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 8:50 AM > To: Wayne Dibert > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Calanders > > Andy, > > You're correct but so is Wayne. They are two entirely different operations. > Audio Visual Designs which did the calendars he talked about is much older > than Cedco. > > Al > ------------------------------- > PRR calendars are annually produced by Cedco. They are all color and I > have been buying them for several years. They also do SF, SP, and > several other RR subjects. I have no association with them. I just > like their PRR caladars. I have even built some models from them! > > They have a website (www.cedco.com, of course). > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > Wayne Dibert wrote: > > > > To the group a question. > > > > A few years ago, I used to purchase calendars from a company called > AudioVisual out of New York. They used to advertise in Model Railroader Mag. > I have not seen their advertisements for a few years now. They had the best > PRR and NYC Railroad calendars I have seen. When I was in Williamsport last > year the folks at Bowser Trains said that the mad passed away and his widow > gave everything away to historical societies. Any truth that anyone knows? I > still have some calendars wrapped in their original wrapping. The pictures > made for great pictures framed and hung on the wall. Especially the past few > years when the front picture was published in color. > > > > Wayne F. Dibert > > 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net > > > > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:46:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42's Assigned As Mail Storage Cars In a message dated 3/29/99 9:28:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: > Without looking, i know for a fact there's a color photo of this car in the > Morning Sun PRR Cokor Guide one, though i don't recall if if shows the > original colors or not. But it's certainly still in passemger service. The photo is on page 84 and is the Shadow Keystone Freight Car scheme. There is also a color photo on page 18 of Vol 2 of the Color Guide. This is the plain Keystone freight car scheme. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:40:17 EST Subject: Fw: [PRR] Correction to latest Keystone Bill & guys, Well, caustic as this interchange may seem by PRR-Talk standards, I still feel a compusion to congratulate the group for it's usual high toned and well mannered postings. It's quite refreshing to stay within a civilized talk group, after having wandered over to the message boards on AOL regarding the Serbian situation. I thought I'd seen a good bit of goings-on in my 50+ years, but I think just found out how low life can sink for some people out there in cyberspace. I've given myself a refresher course on the thereputic value of model railraoding in reaction to that filth. Not healthy to find out again how much hate, anger, bigotry at every level and against virtually anything and everything exists in some "people's" minds. Again, thanks everyone for being the kind of group this is, and for being part of one of the good things in life. As it says in the Bible, "think of that which is beautiful and good", etc. As usual, the best advise. Now I gotta get back downstairs cause that new benchwork ain't gonna finish itself. Best regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:58:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42's Assigned As Mail Storage Cars Jerry & All, I am sure it will depend a great deal on when you choose to represent this car. If the "tuscan red/ dulux gold stripped" car(s) did see sevice there use in that scheme must have been brief. I have seen photos of these cars in the "shadow keystone" scheme and "plain keystone" scheme in service. I have yet to see the "keystone on the ball" or "passenger" scheme in service. The "passenger" scheme is a departure from what appears to be standard practice. By this I mean look at all those X-29s in "REA"/passenger service, they weren't painted anything but freight car color. Of course with only ten cars I guess anything goes. If I were a betting man, I'd bet the freight painted "keystone on the ball" scheme came first. The "passenger" scheme if it happened (I believe it was an experiment) may have been an attempt to blend these new cars with the regular passenger equipment. Someone with a copy of these early schemes can check the dates on the car side or even the date sometimes showing on the negitive. As I remember these early photos were taken at Altoona. Sorry Jerry, no plastic kit. Resin would be good too. I trust the guys who do plastic much more than the brass folks. I too think that a creditable job could be done with commercially available parts and basic skills. I have considered it myself but, the bug hasn't bitten that hard yet. These cars may have moved in regular trains and supported particular customers. Does anyone have anything on this? Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Time warp Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:20:13 -0800 I just received a message with a date of 1956. Time warp? Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:20:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42's Assigned As Mail Storage Cars In a message dated 3/30/99 8:11:40 PM Central Standard Time, ELM2@aol.com writes: << These cars may have moved in regular trains and supported particular customers. Does anyone have anything on this? >> Only thing I notice is that the few still photos and video I have seen them in in trains were taken in Southern Ohio. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:19:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Whistle Posts and Crossbucks Hey I didn't think that there was another PRR guy this far North and West of Pittsburgh, PA. David are you going to make the Salem, Or train Show this weekend? I'll be there. We need to get together, I have a daughter and son- in-law in Bremerton, WA. Greg Martin David Lind writes: << Ted, How about using the crossbucks you have to make a mold to do your own? David Lind Oak Harbor, WA >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Time warp Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 06:13:31 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/30/99 10:20 PM, endeimling@mindspring.com (endeimling@mindspring.com) wrote: >I just received a message with a date of 1956. Time warp? Date is set by sender's system. There are a few in the archives that were sent in the next millennium! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:52:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Module photos Hi All, I just wanted to update you on PRRMO, the Pennsylvania Modular Modeling Society. Members are building modules! We anticipate some meets in late 1999! I have been working on a module of the Shellpot Branch's swing bridge over the Christina River in Wilmington DE. For new photos of the module, check out: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ShellpotMod3.JPEG http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ShellpotMod4.JPEG The module is mocked up in blue foam. The bridge will be two spans shorter than the prototype (aka selective compression) and will be bashed from Central Valley and Walthers kits. The bridge will operate! As always, comments/questions are welcome! for prototype photos: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/Shellpot3.JPEG http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/Shellpot6.JPEG And for PRRMO itself: http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 04:03:50 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] South Phila. question Looking at the 1923 CT1000, Maryland Division, Chester and Philadelphia Branch. I see 8 items using the intials A. I. S. C. in their names. A. I. S. C. Passenger Loop North End, A. I. S. C. Lumber Spur, A. I. S. C. Shuttle Line North Connection, A. I. S. C. Materials Spur, A. I. S. C. Outbound Interchange, and so forth. In the midst of all this, on the A. I. S. C. Passenger Loop, is Hog Island, Pa. (Station) What do the initials stand for? If the full name isn't self explanatory, what is/was the A. I. S. C.? Thanks, I hope. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:18:46 -0500 From: Dave McNeil Subject: [PRR] K-4 3768 colors All Hands, A while ago a friend custom built K4 3768 for me in brass, it turned out to be a very credible model, a great smooth running puller. We decided to paint it in what was seen as an early paint scheme mentioned as "Bronze" in print somewhere. Does anybody have an idea what this might have looked like, or know of a color picture on line. We used Floquil Bronze and although it really looks nice, its always nagged at me how close to correct it was. I know that later it was repainted to DGLE and re-striped, these pictures are easy to find. All comments appreciated. I also plan to do a K-4 in the 1930's tuscan red scheme, any pictures? I have the color use description that was printed in KEYSTONE several years ago. Thanks, Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul W. Schopp" Subject: Re: [prr] South Phila. question Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:51:52 -0500 Bob: The initials stand for the American International Shipbuilding Corporation. This is the consortium that managed the Hog Island Shipyard and also owned the New York Shipbuilding Corp. in Camden, NJ. The ships built at Hog Island were designed with the assistance of the drafting department at NYS. One of the major stockholders in AISC was Stone & Webster, the contractor charged with building the Hog Island facility. Best regards, Paul W. Schopp spanky@voicenet.com ================================================================ -----Original Message----- From: robert netzlof To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 7:30 AM Subject: [prr] South Phila. question >Looking at the 1923 CT1000, Maryland Division, >Chester and Philadelphia Branch. I see 8 items using >the intials A. I. S. C. in their names. > > A. I. S. C. Passenger Loop North End, A. I. S. C. >Lumber Spur, A. I. S. C. Shuttle Line North >Connection, A. I. S. C. Materials Spur, A. I. S. C. >Outbound Interchange, and so forth. > > In the midst of all this, on the A. I. S. C. >Passenger Loop, is Hog Island, Pa. (Station) > >What do the initials stand for? If the full name >isn't self explanatory, what is/was the A. I. S. C.? > >Thanks, I hope. > >=== >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:28:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 3768 colors Dave, Hello, this is a much debated subject. No one knows for sure. To get the best example of this color refer to Grif Tellers 1937 Calendar painting. It shows this k4s and a standard K4s sitting at a coaling dock. I suppose Grif would have painted what he saw or what he interpreted. Appearently no color photos exist of this loco in that early color. At least none has been published as far as I know. I have a Brass Key Imports of this Streamlined K4s factory painted in the Bronze color. Is this correct? I do not know and I ain't complaining. It is different though! As for the Tuscan K4s it is also a stumbling block. No color photos of this exist either. I have read the Keystone articles on this and I did paint one according to the eyewitness's that described the color combination. Is this right? Again no one knows for sure. Precision Scale brought this out in Brass in the mid 1980's. I have not had the chance to see one. Was it painted according to the Keystone article? I do not know. I have sold the K that I had painted Tuscan so I can not send you a pic of it. Hope that helps a little. Maybe (probably) you will hear from others on their opinions. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 10:27:36 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/31/99 9:07 AM, David (lindfam@galaxynet.com) wrote: >In the middle it has a picture of a Class AA-5 switcher, that looks like >an SW-1, but it doesn't have an exhaust stack, is it an SW-1? I'm not aware of an AA-5 switcher, but there was an AA-6. The SW-1's were PRR class ES6. There were a bunch of NW2's. Most were class ES10, but there was a sole class AA6. It was number 3909. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SW-? Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 06:07:11 -0800 From: David I have a pamphlet titled, "MODERN LOCOMOTIVES AND CARS 1939 PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD." In the middle it has a picture of a Class AA-5 switcher, that looks like an SW-1, but it doesn't have an exhaust stack, is it an SW-1? David Lind Oak Harbor, WA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:29:44 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Time warp Here's the header from one that just came in here yesterday: Subject: [BARTLETT-L] pears and quotations Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:20:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: BARTLETT-L@rootsweb.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2032 22:20:22 -0500 From: "Paul & Laura ........" etc. My Netscape 4.0 inbox listing just shows _32_ ... Y2K already??? Steve Bartlett endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > > I just received a message with a date of 1956. Time warp? > Gene Deimling > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:07:46 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? Staufer's _Pennsy Power II_, page 238, shows the same photo with stacks, and with power lines in the background. Page 239 shows the left side of the same engine. It has two low stacks, almost white in the photo. It looks like the photo in the PRR pamphlet was retouched to remove the background and the stacks went with it. (I also have a copy). Staufer says it was "Model SW." Steve Bartlett David Lind wrote: > > I have a pamphlet titled, "MODERN LOCOMOTIVES AND CARS 1939 PENNSYLVANIA > RAILROAD." > > In the middle it has a picture of a Class AA-5 switcher, that looks like > an SW-1, but it doesn't have an exhaust stack, is it an SW-1? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Electric Switchers at Harrisburg Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 12:06:12 -0500 From: Jerry Anyone know any confirmed road numbers of B-1 "rat" electric switchers that operated at Harrisburg? Please provide reference, if possible. Thanks. BTW: Following up an earlier thread, I have found no evidence whatsoever that the REA/freight area south of Harrisburg station was ever electrified. This means that in addition to the B-1's that were assigned consist switching chores in the 40's and 50's, there was still a need for a steamer/diesel to handle head end chores. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:55:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? > On 3/31/99 9:07 AM, David (lindfam@galaxynet.com) wrote: > > >In the middle it has a picture of a Class AA-5 switcher, that looks like > >an SW-1, but it doesn't have an exhaust stack, is it an SW-1? > > I'm not aware of an AA-5 switcher, but there was an AA-6. > > The SW-1's were PRR class ES6. > > There were a bunch of NW2's. Most were class ES10, but there was a sole > class AA6. It was number 3909. Offhand guess, which would seem to make sense: AA5 was the lone Pennsy SW (not SW-1). That would make it, uh, maybe 3908? Remember that before SW stood for switcher, it meant Six hundred hp, Welded frame, just as NW meant Nine hundred, Welded (and SC/NC meant ... Cast frame) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:53:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric Switchers at Harrisburg Jerry, I have a 1 phtograph from a large collection of PRR photographs that I have recently purchased showing a lone B-1 rat. The loco number on this one is 5692. The info on the back of the photo states this was taken 3/17/54. Location was Harrisburg, Pa. I am sure this info is most likely correct becuase all the other photos (2200+) are all described on the back as to location, date, and class. Some of them have the photographers name. This one does not have anyones name. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:19:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? In a message dated 3/31/99 9:14:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, lindfam@galaxynet.com writes: << In the middle it has a picture of a Class AA-5 switcher, that looks like an SW-1, but it doesn't have an exhaust stack, is it an SW-1? >> It is an SW built by EMC in 1937. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] Y2K Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:23:17 -0500 The Timewarp problem is going to get interesting...The 1956 and 2032 dates are beginning and ending dates used in many program API's for date calculations.. Many of people using these program API's have no idea these are wrong.. The only way to correct this is recompile the code with updated libraries and redistribute.. The OS people are sending out service packs to correct some of this.. Other patches are coming to software developers.. But the code must be fixed an sent out, in many cases the original code writer is no longer in business.. etc...etc.... The bad dates will end up in a file, and the bill collector will call , or the check you thought was coming will be still in the system somewhere.. The majority of big company's have all ready tested these thing's during the last three years.. But if you do not up grade your old computer or software you will be part of the problem... Most computers before 1996 could be in trouble... tdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:19:41 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? Howdy All: Early PRR diesels where listed as Electric Locomotives. I did an email about them awhile ago, I'll try to remember what it was in reply to. Any way the PRR had several classes of AA type locomotives before the 1949(?) general classification change which is what most of us are familiar with. They had: A1 Altoona Built - looked like the B1 AA2 AA3 AA4 AA5 AA5a AA5b AA10B AA10e Sorry I can't find my handy cross right now... assigned to New York and Philadelphia terminals. Cos wsbcos.com David wrote: > I have a pamphlet titled, "MODERN LOCOMOTIVES AND CARS 1939 PENNSYLVANIA > RAILROAD." > > In the middle it has a picture of a Class AA-5 switcher, that looks like > an SW-1, but it doesn't have an exhaust stack, is it an SW-1? > > David Lind > Oak Harbor, WA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Time warp Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 12:48:58 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/31/99 8:29 AM, Stephen Bartlett (sbartlet@capecod.net) wrote: >Here's the header from one that just came in here yesterday: > >Subject: > [BARTLETT-L] pears and quotations > Resent-Date: > Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:20:37 -0800 (PST) > Resent-From: > BARTLETT-L@rootsweb.com > Date: > Sun, 28 Mar 2032 22:20:22 -0500 > From: > "Paul & Laura ........" etc. > >My Netscape 4.0 inbox listing just shows _32_ ... >Y2K already??? > I think I've figured this out, but won't be fixed until tonight. I did check the server that the listserv runs from, and it has the correct date and time. However, it doesn't receive mail directly. Mail is received by another server, which I had to hard reset a few days ago due to a rare lockup. I think maybe it reset the date, which could indicate that it's battery is wearing (not a big deal, I have a spare). I gather this based on the Long Header from Stephen Bartlett's e-mail which began: >Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com (AppleShare IP Mail Server 5.0.2) id 937071 via TCP with >SMTP; Tue, 04 Sep 1956 12:22:32 +0000 The above clearly shows the wrong date. I will reset the mail server's clock this afternoon. As to Y2K, all of my equipment is Macintosh which does not have Y2K implications. The Y2K "bug" was discovered prior to the first Macs being released in 1984, so it was addressed prior to introduction. It is good to go until long after I am dead and gone and people ask "What was a railroad?" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:08:57 EST Subject: [PRR] Lots of Westerfiled kits I have lots of Westerfield kits on Ebay. Some are PRR. See them here:http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=paintloco@aol.com Or here: eBay Seller List: paintloco@aol.com All are new in the box. Thanks Don Murphy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Decals Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 15:48:28 -0500 From: Jerry On 3/31/99 2:08 PM, Doug Maddox (maddoxdy@enter.net) wrote: >I'm renaming several of the Catawissa Rapids cars I have to match the >consist of the '48 Broadway Limited. I was looking through Jerry's site and >came across the list of decals. I notice that Microscale has a set 87-893, >Passenger Names. I went to the Microscale web site, but I cannot find more >information on this set. Has anybody seen this set? Is there a picture of it >somewhere? I can't speak for Microscale, but I have numerous Champ sets in stock. They contain numerous names. Would it be helpful for me to list included names on the web? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] "Merchandise Service" eCommerce Kickoff Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 14:14:04 -0500 From: Jerry "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. -- the company that serves many railroad-related lists -- is pleased to announce the opening of its eCommerce store on the Internet. Customers may now search for and order products electronically. For those unfamiliar, we offer railroadiana and model railroad products. We cater to all scales and roads, but our specialty lies with the Pennsylvania Railroad. Our more notable brands are Bowser, Digitrax, Miracle Castings, Red Caboose, and Westerfield. It will take some time to import all available products into our online database, so if you don't see what you are looking for, just ask! To celebrate, we are offering 20% off on nearly all products (very few exceptions). Please stop by our site over the next month... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Remember, your purchases through "Merchandise Service" supports the "Keystone Crossings" web site and the many railroad lists served by the DSOP.COM listserv. Thank you for your support! PLEASE NOTE: The server will be down this evening from approximately 6:30 p.m. to 7 p.m. EST for planned maintenance. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Maddox" Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Decals Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:08:26 -0500 I'm renaming several of the Catawissa Rapids cars I have to match the consist of the '48 Broadway Limited. I was looking through Jerry's site and came across the list of decals. I notice that Microscale has a set 87-893, Passenger Names. I went to the Microscale web site, but I cannot find more information on this set. Has anybody seen this set? Is there a picture of it somewhere? TIA, Doug maddoxdy@enter.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: [PRR] Brill/Arsenal towers Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:04:28 -0800 Does anyone have their CT1000 handy? I have a map with a name that I can't read next to a spur between Brill and Arsenal off of track 5. It would be something like "Meettax" or "Moetlar". Any help would be appreciated. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:11:07 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Copyright of PRR calendar artwork (long) Hi All, The PRR calender prints were reproduced in PP1. How did Al get the rights to use them? Evidently the rights are obtainable? Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:36:23 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? Hi David, All, Info gleaned from PP2: This would have to be the 3908, the PRR's first diesel. Built in 1937 as an SW, Pennsy Class AA5. PRR's second diesel didn't arrive until 1941. The 3908 was originally built with a Winton 201A 8cyl prime mover. The Winton appears to have had a different exhaust system than the EMD 567A V6. The exhaust stack(s?) were very short and appeared to have been painted silver. They don't show very well in the PP2 pics. 600 horsepower. Renumbered to 5911 in 1942. Remotored in 1958 with an EMD 567A. I "assume" at this point it would have received the single tall exhaust stack of the SW1. Did it become an SW1 at this point? I don't know. The specs for the 3908 (5911) are noted as different than the rest of the SW1's but it is included with the SW1's in PP2. Later PRR Class ES6. Text states: "also carried Class (B-B) 6E"? Penn Central number 8511. Retired 1968. Can't find my Diesel Spotters Guide so can't give further info on EMD model SW. Later, Ron., ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric Switchers at Harrisburg Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:23:54 -0500 (EST) > BTW: Following up an earlier thread, I have found no evidence whatsoever > that the REA/freight area south of Harrisburg station was ever > electrified. This means that in addition to the B-1's that were assigned > consist switching chores in the 40's and 50's, there was still a need for > a steamer/diesel to handle head end chores. Jerry, you won't get a definitive answer this way, but you may have noticed that, in places that used to be electrified but are no longer, some wires are still present. E.g., look at the former yard area in and around STATE tower. (West of HARRIS, all bets are off, as it's been substantially changed.) You'll find the I-beam catenary posts. There will generally be 2 wires going from I-beam to I-beam. The lower one (horizontal stay wire? sorry, without my reference here at work, I'm likely to botch the actual name(s) of these wires; check your CT 290) is just above the trolley wire. The upper one is generally not horizontal, but rather is various angles of diagonal, post to track to track to track to post. You'll note that there are vertical wires from the upper 'multi-diagonal' wire to the lower horizontal wire. This is generally where the upper wire changes its angle of "diagonalicity". I have come to surmise that such locations often, and quite possibly almost always, indicate the _former_ presence of catenary wire over what used to be electrified track. Yes, this involves speculation. Consider it railroad archaeology of sorts. --- The other method is to visit the Power Director's office. The section you're interested in may well be covered with black paint, but the outline of what used to be there should still be discernible. My point is that both of these otherwise diverse pieces of hardware have undergone little change, and the information they provide should be fairly reliable. -- Mark P.S. The entirety of this post is false. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Decals Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:06:04 -0500 Doug, Just looked at the set. I referenced the Wayner Book "Car Names, Numbers and Consists" for the PRR names and found the following: The set contains several names for the PRR PS Plan 4129 10-6 Car. There are at least eight valid names. Please note that I believe that the MANISTEE RAPIDS should be MANATEE RAPIDS (can anyone verify this?). If you are using the AHM/IHC (old)/Rivarossi car, that represents the PRR AC&F Plan 9008 car. There are three names on the sheet: Allegheny, Green and French Rapids. Champ also offers PH82D ('48 Broadway Limited) and PH153 (Misc. Lightweight Sleepers) with correct names for both cars. Hope this helps. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Doug Maddox To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 3:57 PM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Decals >I'm renaming several of the Catawissa Rapids cars I have to match the >consist of the '48 Broadway Limited. I was looking through Jerry's site and >came across the list of decals. I notice that Microscale has a set 87-893, >Passenger Names. I went to the Microscale web site, but I cannot find more >information on this set. Has anybody seen this set? Is there a picture of it >somewhere? > >TIA, >Doug >maddoxdy@enter.net > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:55:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Amtrak Flashing Green Signals The Flashing Green Signals are part of the changes for the coming of the "Acela" trains. Flashing Green is 80 MPH Max Speed. See Trains May issue page 40. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak Flashing Green Signals Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:04:17 +6700 (EST) TVPedro@aol.com scrivit: > > The Flashing Green Signals are part of the changes for the coming of the > "Acela" trains. Flashing Green is 80 MPH Max Speed. See Trains May issue > page 40. They've been around for a while (late 80s?), presumably in conjunction with the 80 (70?) MPH switches Amtrak has installed in a couple of locations. GROVE (near Odenton, Md.) for sure, and I believe the other location is New Carrollton. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 15:41:02 -0800 From: David Yes, I hsould have mentioned the side number, it is #3908. How would you model an SW? Reading had a handful of these! Full Stats from the pamphlet... Class AA-5 WT: 200K# Drivers 40" Tractive Effort 60K# Engine 8cyl 2-cycle 600 hp@750 rpm 4 traction motors David Lind Oak Harbor, WA >Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? >Sent: 19/03/28 13:33 >Received: 99/03/31 15:25 >From: shadow@dementia.org >To: PRR Talk, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > >> On 3/31/99 9:07 AM, David (lindfam@galaxynet.com) wrote: >> >> >In the middle it has a picture of a Class AA-5 switcher, that looks like >> >an SW-1, but it doesn't have an exhaust stack, is it an SW-1? >> >> I'm not aware of an AA-5 switcher, but there was an AA-6. >> >> The SW-1's were PRR class ES6. >> >> There were a bunch of NW2's. Most were class ES10, but there was a sole >> class AA6. It was number 3909. > >Offhand guess, which would seem to make sense: AA5 was the lone Pennsy SW >(not >SW-1). That would make it, uh, maybe 3908? Remember that before SW stood for >switcher, it meant Six hundred hp, Welded frame, just as NW meant Nine >hundred, >Welded (and SC/NC meant ... Cast frame) > >-D > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric Switchers at Harrisburg Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 15:41:05 -0800 From: David My little pamphlet "ML&C1939PRR" has a picture of a clas B-1 Electic Switcher and the side number is 3910. David Lind Oak Harbor, WA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:37:11 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? Howdy all: I was wrong the A1 was a ?. This is what I came up with: Class A1 numbers 320 and 322 no other information Class AA2 number 401 Class AA3 number 402 Class AA4 number 403 Class AA5 number 5911 later class ES6, EMC class SW Class AA5a numbers 5907 to 5909, 5932 to 5937, later class BS6 Baldwin type VO660 Class AA5b number 5910 later class ES6, EMD type SW1 Class AA6 number 3905 and 3906 Altoona built Class AA6b number 3907 Altoona built Class AA10b numbers 5913 to 5917, later class BS10, Baldwin type VO1000 Class AA10e number 5912, later class ES10, EMD type NW2 Thats all the real early stuff I can find. I have no clue as to what the A1, AA2, AA3 and AA4 are. From what I have read, in 1944 the PRR had 18 diesel electrics. Without the A1, AA2, AA3, and AA4 there are 18 units in the list. Cos wsbcos.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] X-42 paint scheme Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:01:08 -0800 My guess! The cars were first built in 1950 and probably carried the ball keystone for one year maybe more before someone decided that since these cars only saw head end service they should have the gold lettering and stripe scheme. Certainly they would not have seen the shadow keystone before its' inception in 1954. Likewise it seems logical to assume that the non shadow keystone scheme would not have been applied until its' debut , which I believe was the mid 1960's. DISCLAIMER: This is a hypothesis, only a hypothesis. I take no responsilblity for anyone who accepts this as gospel. --- Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Special interest in Renovo Yards Always looking for any! information or photos of Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:07:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] SW-? In a message dated 3/31/99 9:14:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, lindfam@galaxynet.com writes: > I have a pamphlet titled, "MODERN LOCOMOTIVES AND CARS 1939 PENNSYLVANIA > RAILROAD." > > In the middle it has a picture of a Class AA-5 switcher, that looks like > an SW-1, but it doesn't have an exhaust stack, is it an SW-1? > > David Lind > Oak Harbor, WA IIRC, the early EMC products didn't come with the familiar conical stack that we expect on most EMD products. The early SW (before SW-1) and early NW (before NW-2?) came with no stack, and were often retrofitted with whatever exhaust extension the owning railroad could cobble up. This phenomenon should be relatively unfamiliar to PRR fans, because it covers very few PRR diesel locomotives. BTW - somebody please confirm I did or did not remember this right. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:43:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Fw: Parole Bill, Hey man, glad ta see ya been sprung. just don't jump bail. Barry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:36:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Decals In a message dated 3/31/99 2:39:22 PM Central Standard Time, maddoxdy@enter.net writes: << notice that Microscale has a set 87-893, Passenger Names. I went to the Microscale web site, but I cannot find more information on this set. Has anybody seen this set? >> I've got the set. What would you like to know? BTW, are you aware of 87-891 PRR pasenger car set 47-68 which also includes several car names? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:00:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Time warp From: Patrick M Egan What Y2K problem? Lets just go back and do the last half a century over! Pat Egan (no web access) On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:20:13 -0800 endeimling@mindspring.com writes: >I just received a message with a date of 1956. Time warp? >Gene Deimling > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Your RR-related business can sponsor this list. >Contact jerry@dsop.com for details. Thank you. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" celebrates its new eCommerce site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com with a 20% off sale. Visit! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!