From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:08:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] Stock car mixture In a message dated 1/31/99 3:20:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, hendricr@SONOMA.EDU writes: > Many were being > used to haul not stock but melons; apparently, stock cars worked well in > lieu of ventilated box cars. A recent issue of the PRRTechnical & Historical Society Keystone detailed how stock cars were used to move the tomato harvest from Lancaster PA to Campbell Soup, Camden NJ. This was in lieu of ventilated boxes. One can only hope these tomatoes were in baskets. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:07:28 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco DL109 Resent-From: bobp@walt.tsc.com Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:24:53 -0500 I just put up a scan of New Haven DL109 #1270 under catenary. The URL is: . It was taken from the engineer's seat of an opposing train, and it's a bit blurry and faded. I got this slide at an auction last year. It's 120 film glass mounted. I have no idea who the photographer was, or when or where it was taken. Any one have any ideas? In the same box, I got a slide of a PRR GP-?? passing Limedale, IN tower. Too bad the quality is not very good. If anyone is interested, I'll scan it and put it on the web. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Technology Service Corp. Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:23:07 -0500 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] M1 cab roof color Hi, I was at a train show this past weekend and saw a O scale model of an M1 (or M1a? didn't notice) and the cab roof and the tender deck was painted red oxide (or some such color). Question: Was this a real paint scheme? If so, when were these engines painted like this and what was the real color used? (i.e. what floquil/scalecoat color is good and would it appear on my 1949 layout? :) I have very few color photos of PPR steam so I didn't find any info when i got home. When the weather warms I will be getting around to painting my S scale M1a and I though the redish color scheme looked pretty nice. Thanks, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Springfield Mass train show report.. Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:03:23 -0500 Hi all, On Saturday I made the trek to W. Springfield Mass for the train show there... Some highlights.. Stewart.. Initial C628's should be out next month... Bethlehem Car Works - Scenery baggage cars and horse express car kits should be out sometime around March. No samples to check out though. They're also doing PRR truc train trailers! These are also coming soon... LBF - asked about the BP20's that were announced many moons ago. They said that the project wasn't dead but is being worked as a background item. Basically, don't hold your breath! Model Memories, nothing new except that they have display cases with PRR catenary.. Branchline Trains, They had their 50' boxcars there. They look great! The PRR bodies are molded and painted up. The cars should be out in the next few weeks. They also had sample unpainted bodies of their 40' car... Atlas.. scheduled to appear but pulled a no show! Intermountain had test shots of their F7's. They look real nice. They are doing the correct pilots for the PRR ones. I suggested dimples on the undersides of the roof for PRR trainphone antennas. They seemed very receptive to this. One can only hope! First units that are scheduled out are NYC. I think March was the target release date but I could be wrong.. Shells should be in the $50 range.. About the same as the Athearn/Highliner ones. My big purchase for the day was a Railworks G41a coil car... now to use it as a guide to build some more out of styrene! That's all I can think of offhand... Rob http://prr.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tower Razing Status? Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:03:27 -0500 There's a photo in the new issue of Railpace of MO coming down... sad. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 3:14 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Tower Razing Status? > > > Anyone know if the wrecking ball has reached AR and MG towers yet? > > Last the subject was discussed, Conrail was to have these two down by > March. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:05:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 cab roof color Keith, You probably don't realize what a sensative subject you have hit on but... >I was at a train show this past weekend and saw >a O scale model of an M1 (or M1a? didn't notice) >and the cab roof and the tender deck was >painted red oxide (or some such color). Question: >Was this a real paint scheme? Yes, it was >If so, when were >these engines painted like this and what was >the real color used? Apparently, from the time they were built, although opinions seem to differ. As for the color, opinions REALLY differ there, and it is in part due to the different practices of different shops. I favor a more RED color, while other favor a freight car color. To me, the red seems to mimic one set of painting instructions which called for red and black mixed in certain proportions. I make mine with Poly Scale Caboose red, with enough black (a few drops) added to "look right". This is great as each cab/tender will look slightly different. In addition, unless the loco is FRESH out of the paint shop, you'll need to weather the living bejeebers out of these areas BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane (spelling?) red" paints? Happy Painting Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:42:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) In a message dated 2/1/99 12:32:41 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane (spelling?) red" paints? >> Usually the keystone is small enough in HO that I grab what looks right under the light I am working with. Still, I have not come up with a good one, using SP , SF or other reds. I think we SPFs need to get the Coca-Cola paint spec (same color, I am led to believe) and find the closest Polly-Scale (or other brand) color once and for all. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Homesignal@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:00:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) In a message dated 2/1/99 3:52:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > << BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane (spelling?) > > red" paints? >> Many years ago, a bunch of my pals decided to repaint the PRR station sign that was still on the tower at HOLMES (Holmesburg Junction) on the Philadelphia--NYC mainline. As you know, station signs usually used Toluidine Red. They discovered that a major paint manufacturer (DuPont, if I recall properly) still had the formula on file and we were able to get five gallons. I'll ask some of those guys and see if I can find out the formula, as something tells me they wrote it down. ~Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:36:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Springfield Mass train show report.. I went to the show too (SO many people - more than last year? - guess model railroading is pretty healthy as a hobby). As last year, one of my favorite displays was George Barrett's of Sheepscot Scale Products. As some of you may know, he is working on a 100 ft. tugboat (larger than the 50 footer). The first one will probably be a NYC Steam tug (June). Later (Sept 99) comes a PRR diesel tug (e.g. Chicago, Philadelphia). Can't Wait! Mike Hagan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:23:45 -0500 The PRRT&HS sells draft cards of the "47-2627" ( Toluidine Red Enamel) for $2.50 from Ivan Frantz.....they are the official 1953 colors. Then any good paint manufacture can match it, for a price! Bill ---------- > From: Homesignal@aol.com > To: Prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) > Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:00 PM > > In a message dated 2/1/99 3:52:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com > writes: > > > << BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane > (spelling?) > > > > red" paints? >> > > Many years ago, a bunch of my pals decided to repaint the PRR station sign > that was still on the tower at HOLMES (Holmesburg Junction) on the > Philadelphia--NYC mainline. As you know, station signs usually used Toluidine > Red. They discovered that a major paint manufacturer (DuPont, if I recall > properly) still had the formula on file and we were able to get five gallons. > I'll ask some of those guys and see if I can find out the formula, as > something tells me they wrote it down. > > ~Chris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:13:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) In a message dated 2/1/99 6:53:45 PM Central Standard Time, boxcar46@nfdc.net writes: << Bob, Where did you ever come up with the color of "Toluidine Red Enamel" for the steel cab roof? >> Not guilty. I was responding to what I considered to be an unrelated (to the cabroof) question regarding a recommendation about model sources for Touidine Red. I assumed the questioner knew where it went, keystones and signs, as you stated. I did not even want to get in to the cabroof question. First it has been discussed a lot. Second, it varied from freight car red (almost orangy) to nonexistent (on later steamers), depending on geography and era. M1s are a special case. Clearly, some earlier steamers started with the red roof. Clearly, I have never seen a J1 with one (never say never, I know). I have seen models of Q2s with the red roof but I just don't personally believe they ever had that color applied in the prototype. Some sources say that the practice stopped starting with the M1 and that's where the debate begins. I don't personally know if that is true. Regards, Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:51:44 -0500 Bob, Where did you ever come up with the color of "Toluidine Red Enamel" for the steel cab roof? I have a copy of the spec's from 1929 and it says: ( Roof above the rain gutters- repainting when only one coat is applied) will be - MIXTURE OF THREE PARTS OF FREIGHT CAR COLOR AND ONE PART BLACK ! I can't find any place the even suggest that the roofs were ever RED ! The primer coat was also a color called " Freight car color" which I guess could be called "red"....* It should be remembered that "Freight Car Color" refers to the old light freight car red in use in the 1920's, 30's, and 40's, which was a much lighter shade than used in more recent years. The only place that I can find that "Toluidine red used is in the Keystone's and Station Signs. ( But of course I could be wrong?) Bill ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) > Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 3:42 PM > > In a message dated 2/1/99 12:32:41 PM Central Standard Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > << BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane (spelling?) > red" paints? >> > > Usually the keystone is small enough in HO that I grab what looks right under > the light I am working with. Still, I have not come up with a good one, using > SP , SF or other reds. I think we SPFs need to get the Coca-Cola paint spec > (same color, I am led to believe) and find the closest Polly-Scale (or other > brand) color once and for all. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 19:51:07 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Stewart RS-12 Gentlemen: Does anyone know where the Stewart Hobbies RS-12's are still being sold? I put off on buying this engine only to find it was discontinued by Stewart. If any of you know of a hobby shop or someone that has just one to sell, I would appreciate any information. Thank you in advance! Ted (the procrastinator) Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:20:38 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Springfield Mass train show report.. Russ Briggs said that by early afternoon Saturday the attendance had passed 25,000. No wonder it was so hard to move around. And did anyone see Cliffie Stone's O Scale Hulett unloader and his rotary dumper? Steve Bartlett Ljgurke@aol.com wrote: > > I went to the show too (SO many people - more than last year? - guess model > railroading is pretty healthy as a hobby). As last year, one of my favorite > displays was George Barrett's of Sheepscot Scale Products. As some of you may > know, he is working on a 100 ft. tugboat (larger than the 50 footer). The > first one will probably be a NYC Steam tug (June). Later (Sept 99) comes a > PRR diesel tug (e.g. Chicago, Philadelphia). Can't Wait! > > Mike Hagan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:02:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] WESTSIDE MODELS??? Fellow PRR Modelers, I am suppose to put the finishing touches on a set of 5 PRR Streamlined Pullman Passenger Cars made by West Side Models in the early 1970's. They came factory painted with strips and the road name applied. My customer wants me to put the proper names and or numbers on these cars. Problem is that I can not come up with any info to what cars these are suppose to be. All my drawings and photos I have doesn't match these cars. Does anyone know if these West Side models are for any prototype Pennsy cars. If so, Can you let me know the names and or numbers I can apply to these. The set includes an 85' Baggage-mail-RPO?, 1 85' Diner, 1 85' coach?, 1 85' duplex sleeper and one Bob-tailed Observation. I believe these are all generic looking cars. Any body know for sure? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:08:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Need Help with PRR H40 and H41 As some of you know, I'm preparing an article for the Keystone illustrating PRR Covered Hopper Car lettering schemes. There seems to be some amazing holes in the group of photo collections I'm working with. The orders I'm after are smallish, but it's as if all the railfans (including me in the 70s) said, "I've shot the first Airslide I saw, and now I don't have to shoot any more". First of all, we have multiple pics of the first, fourth, and fifth orders of the H40, an Airslide leased from GATC. But I need to check pictures of - H40 second order PRR 261426-261437 Nov 1961 - H40 third order PRR 261420-261425 Dec 1961 Just for fun, go to PRR Color Guide 2 page 71 where 261426 is illustrated. This pic, only one presently known of either order, appears to be a mix of phase SK2a and SK2b. Of course, this @#$%^&* car was delivered 5 months after the later of those schemes supposedly ended. Then there is the H41, another leased car from GATC, but a longer carbody and with "Dry Flo" pressurized unloading instead of "Airslide". Out of the two orders, I have found only two pictures. One of these is in PRR Color Guide 1 page 63 and shows 261003 in SK2b. I need to check more pix out of - H41 first order 261001-261006 April 1961 (should be SK2b) - H41 second order 261007-261016 Sept 1961 (should be PK) Please note that I'm not asking you to lend me your pictures, or necessarily even make copies. I can analyze pics via text email if necessary. But if you are able to check your resources, it will enable me to be sure that what I write is not leading further generations of researchers and modelers astray. Many thanks, Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:03:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) I was interested to also learn of the use and application of Toluidine Red. I hesitate to mention, therefore, that I have been using off-the-shelf Rustoleum Red and Yellow to periodically refinish (with quite acceptable results), my PRR station sign "HUNTINGDON'". I also have an original (un-retouched ) sign from CRESSON to compare it to. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:57:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATSF - Modeling stainless steel In a message dated 2/1/99 3:15:57 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, VVA249 writes: << Boy are you gonna get "flamed" - correcting "Steal" then adding a second "L" (STEELL) to the correct spelling Dick Ross >> To All, Betrayed by my spell checker and bifocals, I hang my head in shame. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:49:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 cab roof color Oh, NO! The steam roof thread had resurfaced. Did we decide if it was straight oxide or oxide/blc mixture. Oh, yes, it is correct but the tint of the oxide red has been in dispute. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eugene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] Roof Paint Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:20:16 -0800 I am looking for information on N6b and ND paint schemes. I am interested in what color the roofs were. I have looked at several color photos and they appear to be black where the canvas was applied to the roof surface. Was this the rule or the exception? Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:58:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Roof Paint In a message dated 2/2/99 1:49:08 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, eedlg@concentric.net writes: << I am looking for information on N6B and ND paint schemes. I am interested in what color the roofs were. I have looked at several color photos and they appear to be black where the canvas was applied to the roof surface. Was this the rule or the exception? Gene Deimling >> Gene, According to the article on painting and lettering of cabin cars in the December 1974 Keystone, the roofs of car bodies and cupolas and the underframes were to be covered with asphaltum. This means all roofs were black. The variation was how much of the cupola was covered with asphaltum. According to the standards, the sides of the cupola were to be painted the same color as the car body. In practice, the older a car got, the more asphaltum covered the cupola. Vol. 2 of Morning Sun's Color Guide of PRR Freight & Passenger Equipment by Ian Fischer has numerous shots of N6Bs awaiting scrapping in the early '60s with black cupolas. It's particularly noticeable against the post-1954 yellow MOW scheme. For guidance, refer to photos of specific models in the era being modeled. Remember that 1913 and 1923 PRR Lines West built far fewer of the N6B with its slope-sided "Panhandle" cupola than the N6A with its large "Lines West" cupola as the N6B was designed to fit the close clearances in the 10 tunnels on the Panhandle Division Pittsbburgh-Columbus mainline between Pittsburgh and Newark, Ohio. During the clearance improvement program in the 1930 all but one N6A received replacement "Panhandle" cupolas and were reclassified as an N6B. The extra 20 years of service on Panhandle Div. N6Bs assigned to Columbus may account for the large number of all-black cupolas shown in Fischer's photos the PRR Color Guide Vol. 2. Most were taken in and around Columbus. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:47:18 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Springfield Mass train show report.. And, only minutes later, I stand corrected. Later word is that the two-day total was only around 19,000. I must leave now and go look for my egg remover. Steve B. Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > Russ Briggs said that by early afternoon Saturday the attendance had > passed 25,000. No wonder it was so hard to move around............ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:36:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] Need Help with PRR H40 and H41 Rick: Have you checked the article "PRR Covered Hoppers of the 1960's" in the Keystone? I don't recall the issue and my copy is at home. I'll check tonight and see which pictures are in the article. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:14:18 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 1 Feb, "Bill Knepper" wrote: > The only place that I can find that "Toluidine red used is in the > Keystone's and Station Signs. ( But of course I could be wrong?) The other place is the keystone background and lettering color on the first Merchandise Service paint scheme. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Q2 roof color Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:19:58 -0800 I know the roof color has been discussed over and over in the past. I wasn't reading PRR talk then, so forgive me for adding. However the Keystone has been fairly clear on this subject and had in early issues talked about original paints and touch up paints. As to the subject what was original freight car red, I have mentioned the way to resolve this issue to some degree. The NX23 at the altoona museum has red showing through the peeling pre1954 MOW gray paint. A chemist has offered to have a chip analyzed for chemical content. He assures me that weathering and other statements made about acid washes prior to repaint will not effect the analysis. No one has offered to get a 1/2" chip to have it analyzed as of yet. I live in california so untill I visit later in the year I must rely on a local volunteer. Any takers? The issue of J1s and Q2s having "red" roofs and tender tops has been a subject of debate. Some state that the above mentioned keystone articles and evidence was from an earlier date and may not have applied to these later built engines. It has been surmised by some that war time engines did not have "red" roofs so as not to attract attention to potential air threats, same as the S.P. daylight GS4s were painted black. I recently purchased a Sunset 3rd Rail Q2 in O scale and mentioned this to Mort Mann. He assured me that his data said they were painted red. I was not convinced untill I saw a video clip of a Q2 that definately had a "red" tender top and I believe cab roof also. I can not tell you the video exactly as I have ,if not all, most all PRR videos out there and I don't remember which one it was. To avoid my bias I asked my wife what color she saw there and she said reddish brown. My wife could care less about trains about as much as I care about her latest style jewelry. I think that eliminates any bias on her part. --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car roof color Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:56:53 -0800 According to the Keystone articleVol 7 No. 4 " The first paint color specifications issued by the PRR, about 1885, were for a standard 'Cabin Car Color.' The pigment was scarlet lead chromate, specially treated to achieve the bright red color desired for added safety from rear end collisions. This pigment was chosen as a less-expensive substitute for vermilion, which was probably used (possibly mixed with other pigments) before the 1885 specifications. The specified cabin car pigment was changed to straight toluidine red, also a bright red, in October 1911; this standard applied to both Lines East and Lines West of Pittsburgh. Although the specification for toluidine red was reprinted as late as 1919, some lettering arrangements for allied lines such as N.Y.P. & N. specify freight car color as of 7-9-1915 and scarlet lead chromate before that. We have not seen Pennsylvania or Pennsylvania Lines cabin car lettering arrangements before 1920; after 1920, PRR arrangements specified PRR standard freight car color for the entire body of the car. The pigment for this color was originally iron sesqioxide, to match PRR standard samples, but other pigments have been used since. In fact, freight car color has become increasingly dark tending to brown as synthetic pigments have been introduced over the years. The pigment of the 1920-1940 era was a much lighter shade ,with almost an orange tint; as recent as the 1950's the standard color was lighter than in the years just before the merger. Freight car color remained the standard car color until 1965." ...............................etc. "The paint colors described are the basic body colors, also used for the underframe, trucks, and wheels on repaint work (at least in the 1930's). New trucks were painted black. According to PRR specifications for class NB cabin cars, dated April 1890, scarlet lead chromate was applied to the outside of the car body, while the roof and truck (wooden parts of the underbody, probably including the platforms) were metallic brown. All iron work was black. A 1904 Lines West cabin car drawing refers to "metallic brown roof paint," so similar schemes might have been used west of Pittsburgh. Various parts of later cabin cars were painted other colors. Beginning 1949, for example, the curved handholds and the verticle handholds on the corner posts were to be painted chrome yellow. From 1920, perhaps earlier, the car roofs were body color, but black was introduced for roofs by the late 1940's and used later on the cupola as well. Often the entire cupola and roof were black, but cupola side and end sheets were commonly painted body color, particularly on focal orange cars, on which....... "......1960s etc. Hope this helps! Greg . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eugene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] Caboose Colors Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:05:15 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4EEF.BAD4A180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg et al; Thanks for the help on the colors Gene Deimling ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4EEF.BAD4A180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg et al;
Thanks for the help on the = colors
Gene = Deimling
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4EEF.BAD4A180-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:28:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Q2 roof color In a message dated 2/2/99 10:02:15 PM Central Standard Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << I was not convinced untill I saw a video clip of a Q2 that definately had a "red" tender top and I believe cab roof also. >> Now you've mapped out my weekend for me:-). Like you, I have most PRR videos and I'll look for the Q2 you mention as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:47:55 EST Subject: [PRR] re: ND, N5, N6 Vagel, The ND was Lines East's first steel underframe and the last bobber design. It was introduced in 1904 when Lines West adopted the all-wood NC bobber. As Lines East considered the woof bodied, eight-wheeled N4, a single car class, Lines West introduced the NE and NEa, the last all-wood cabin car design adopted by the PRR. Lines East would have one more wood-bodied cabin with steel underframe, the single car N4 class, before the Ohio General Assembly forced the Pennsylvania to innovate by effectively outlawing all-wood cabooses. Ohio''s 1913 caboose safety law mandated steel underframes on any caboose in pusher service. The decision to go with eight wheels for better tracking was the railroad. Stall independent buy cooperative, Lines East and Lines West settled on different designs which went into production in 1914, Lines East chose the all-steel N5 and shipped all of its NC cabins to Lines West. Lines West choose the wood bodied N6 class in two variation, the N6A with the wide Lines West cupola and the N6B with its slope-sided cupola to negotiate the narrow tunnels of the Panhandle Div. Columbus-Pittsburgh mainline. Costs were cut as Lines West salvaged the wood bodies of the all-wood NBa, NC, NE and NEa classes, lengthened them and put them on new steel underframes. It was the rebuilding that resulted in subtle variations within the subclasses. The bodies were split to one side of the cupola resulting in the offset cupolas in rebuilt NBa, NE and NEa cabins. The NC cabins received new cupolas so these new structures may have been centered as were new cars built in the construction program lasting until 1923. Lengthened short bodies of the NBa class' smaller bodies resulted in cars with the side windows noticeably closer to the cat ends. In 1927 some ND cabins were lengthened four feet, received two four-wheeled trucks and were reclassified NDa. As operations were consolidated with the phasing out of the separate Pittsburgh-based corporate structure in 1923, the N6 cabins remained on Lines West and N5 cabins on Lines East. Both classes migrated but in the Fifties most N6Bs could be found on Lines West, N5s on Lines East. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:31:20 EST Subject: [PRR] corrected ND, N5, N6 When my medication wears off, typing and even using spell checkers becomes very difficult so errors creep in. Such was the case of the first version of this posting. Here's the corrected version. Tom V. Vagel, The ND was Lines East's first steel underframe and the last bobber design. It was introduced in 1904 when Lines West adopted the all-wood NC bobber. As Lines East considered the woof bodied, eight-wheeled N4, a single car class, Lines West introduced the NE and NEa, the last all-wood cabin car design adopted by the PRR before the Ohio General Assembly forced the Pennsylvania to innovate by effectively outlawing all-wood cabooses. Ohio''s 1913 caboose safety law mandated steel underframes on any caboose in pusher service. The decision to go with eight wheels for better tracking was the railroad. Still operated as independent railroads but cooperative, Lines East and Lines West settled on different designs which went into production in 1914, Lines East chose the all-steel N5 and shipped all of its NC cabins to Lines West. Lines West choose the wood bodied N6 class in two variation, the N6A with the wide Lines West cupola and the N6B with its slope-sided cupola to negotiate the narrow tunnels of the Panhandle Div. Columbus-Pittsburgh mainline. Costs were cut as Lines West salvaged the wood bodies of the all-wood NBa, NC, NE and NEa classes, lengthened them and put them on new steel underframes. It was the rebuilding that resulted in subtle variations within the subclasses. The bodies were split to one side of the cupola resulting in the offset cupolas in rebuilt NBa, NE and NEa cabins. The NC cabins received new cupolas so these new structures may have been centered as were new cars built in the construction program lasting until 1923. Lengthened short bodies of the NBa class' smaller bodies resulted in cars with the side windows noticeably closer to the car ends. In 1927 some ND cabins were lengthened four feet, received two four-wheeled trucks and were reclassified NDa. Until operations were consolidated with the phasing out of the separate Pittsburgh-based corporate structure in 1923, the N6 cabins remained on Lines West and N5 cabins on Lines East. After consolidation examples of these two most numerous PRR cabin car classes migrated systemwide. Still in 1957 the majority of the more than 860 N6Bs could be found on Lines West, most of the more than 620 N5s on Lines East. Tom V. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:17:24 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Q2 roof color >I recently purchased a Sunset 3rd Rail Q2 in O scale and mentioned this to >Mort Mann. >He assured me that his data said they were painted red. I was not convinced >untill I saw a video clip of a Q2 that definately had a "red" tender top and >I believe cab roof also. Color photos and film of anything earlier than the 50's can be hard to come by and the film is often biased in the red direction (Dad was a chemist for Kodak ). That said, I did some looking last night as well. One quote I found that was intriguing was Don Ball's (In PRR 40's and 50's) where he claims that older and smaller classes had red roofs, with the M1 being the last to recieve such treatment. Red tender decks were standard on all classes. As I looked through his book, the only really "red" roofs I saw were on a freshly painted set of an E5 and an E6 Atlantic on a 1947 fan trip. Looking more carefully, one can pick up very slight hints of red roofs in a number of photos. The dead give-away is the backside of the cabin top deflector. As to the color, in one photo in particular, of newly shopped locos dead during a strike in the 50's, there is a freight car color hopper next to the locos, and the red tender deck is VERY RED compared to the hopper (side by side comparison compensating for any film deviation). Also, not one loco in that line has a red roof (K4, M1, H10, I1, J1) My suggestion? I paint my locos with zinc chromate primer, which is a pretty good color for the red/brown-red. On early locos, or freshly shopped locos, mask off the roof to keep it pristine, and then weather with soot. On anything that's been out of the shop more than a week or so, don't bother to mask, and let the DGLE overspray cover most of the red. Try not to spray the roof directly, unless you feel that your class had a DGLE roof, and make sure that the overspray comes from natural directions (ie let the primer show through on the back of the cabin top deflector!). Additionally, newly painted locos "graphite" smoke boxes look almost black (very very little silver) and older locos look slightly more metalic (lighter black), combined with a lot of RUST! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SMOKIECAT@webtv.net (Steve L) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:58:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] SEPTA Regional RR Track Charts Does anyone have Track Charts or Track Maps of the SEPTA Philadelphia, Network ---Track ,Switches,Interlockings,Platforms Thank you Steve Lowenthal -------------------------------------------- Mikie Lowenthal, the Cat Tiger Lowenthal,the other Cat Smokie Lowenthal,Tiger's Brother and of course Chris D. Lowenthal--Esq.(My Son). ____________________________________ Old Address 59 New Ludlow Road #8B Chicopee Mass 01020 413 533 0396 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:29:19 -0500 From: Frank Brua Subject: [PRR] X-29 Mail Storage Cars Does anyone have information on the X-29's in REA lettering that had assigned routings stenciled in 18" x 9' panels on their left sides? The Summer 1998 Keystone has a copy of drawing D444223 with latest change letter dated 4/51 that shows two specific assigned routings; Mail Storage Phila-Pittsburgh and Mail Storage Akron-Columbus. The 8/97 issue of Railmodel Journal has a picture of car #100688 on page 17 which has the Akron-Columbus routing and has also been equipped with drop equalizer high speed express trucks. Photo is dated 9/50. My question after all this background dialog: does anybody know how many cars were identified with these assigned routings and/or what timeframe they ran on the PRR? Thanks guys - I know one of you has the answers out there somewhere. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:20:31 -0600 What was the PRR's rationale for preserving some examples of its steam motive power, but not others. Was it that financially strapped in the 1950's that not one J1, T1, or Q2 couldn't have been preserved? Their scrap value couldn't have been so great that saving at least one of each model would have made that great of a difference to the company's financial situation. I suspect it was something more than mere dollars and cents. I realize the duplex locomotives were a disappointment for the PRR, if not an embarrassment, but the J1 had a pretty impressive record. I know its all water under the bridge at this point, but I was hoping someone could enlighten me on this issue. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:27:07 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report What appeared to be this sample plate was for sale by a dealer at the W. Springfield show; asking price $20.00. I have not bought one yet. It felt like thin fibreglass or other non-metallic substance, had the four zeros, and the word "SAMPLE" in small white block letters arranged vertically to the right of the numbers. Is there any update from Pennsylvania on this plate? Dan Cupper wrote: [back on 12/22/98] > ....................... > The plate costs $35, $15 of which is returned to the museum for > programs, publications, etc. This fee is in addition to the regular > registration fee. Several people reported that those manning the table > said a sample plate with the number OOOO will be available (they're not > yet stamped) for $5, for those who don't want to go the whole way with > the plate, or for those who live out of state. > .................. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:30:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Richard Biegaj wrote: > What was the PRR's rationale for preserving some examples of its steam > motive power, but not others. Was it that financially strapped in the > 1950's that not one J1, T1, or Q2 couldn't have been preserved? Their scrap [] > situation. I suspect it was something more than mere dollars and cents. I > realize the duplex locomotives were a disappointment for the PRR, if not an > embarrassment, but the J1 had a pretty impressive record. I know its all I don't know that I buy in to your theory, but if it were the case, remember that the J was not a PRR design, but rather, a borrowed one, so that would account for similar embarassment if what you say were the case. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Clay" Subject: [PRR] HO Layout For Sale Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:59:23 -0500 For Sale 16' x 13' HO scale layout Built from 1993 Model Railroader PRR Middle Divison Project Layout by Dave Frary All benchwork complete 95% of trackwork complete built in 6 sections for easy transport Shinohara code 83 track and switches No scenery For additional details please contact Jim Clay at jclay@paonline.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 18:31:42 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] SEPTA Regional RR Track Charts Howdy Steve: I checked my recent Railroad Paper Collectibles Catalog and did not see anything for SEPTA. You may want to contact Dave Cramer - the publisher - and see if he knows of any or can point you someplace trainsite@aol.com or trainsite@hotmail.com He lists a lot of paper stuff in the catalog $12.00 for 5 issues. cos wsbcos.com Steve L wrote: > Does anyone have Track Charts or Track Maps of the SEPTA Philadelphia, > Network > ---Track ,Switches,Interlockings,Platforms > > Thank you > Steve Lowenthal > > -------------------------------------------- > Mikie Lowenthal, the Cat > Tiger Lowenthal,the other Cat > Smokie Lowenthal,Tiger's Brother > > and > of course > > Chris D. Lowenthal--Esq.(My Son). > > ____________________________________ > Old Address > 59 New Ludlow Road #8B > Chicopee Mass 01020 > 413 533 0396 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:50:30 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] updates to "The Limited" Hello all, Just a quick note to say that I have just uploaded a substantially revised and enlarged topic on the PRR electrification. As always, I hope you will drop by to take a look and let me know if you see any additions or corrections that are needed. http://www.thoseclassictrains.com/LOCOdwgs10.html Also - yes, once again its Opinion Poll time. Please let me know your input. Every one's comments are helpful. T-t-t-t-thats's all, folks! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:10:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29 Mail Storage Cars Frank and All, Trucks nothing did you catch that roof? Is the assignment panel white as in the Middle Div. Decals (sorry Jerry! sore spot I know) or should it be yellow? Inquiring minds want to know. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:43:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report The license plate to which Dan refereed is an official Pennsylvania license plate. Why would someone be selling these plates in Springfield when they are only available legally from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation when you pay your registration fee? Seems like a commercial rip-off of the real thing. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:37:04 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > The license plate to which Dan refereed is an official Pennsylvania license > plate. Why would someone be selling these plates in Springfield when they are > only available legally from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation when > you pay your registration fee? Seems like a commercial rip-off of the real > thing. The state issues "sample" plates which aren't valid for use on a PA registered vehicle as a plate; You have to pay for them. Explain exactly how you think it is you're being taken? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:09:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Saved Locomotives Before I get completely "Flamed" let me add: Class "O" and "P" were, of course, Electrics and I should have added none were saved "BY THE RAILROAD" - a Class P-5 does exist - somehow - in St Louis. ALSO a Class I-1 was saved BY THE RAILROAD - but became seperated from the "Collection" through a series of circumstances Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:11:30 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report Rich, The "sample" to which I referred was to have been a legally available promotional version of the actual registration plate, hence the number "0000," as per the quote I attached from Dan Cupper in my previous post. I was curious about the apparent discrepancy in price: $20 vs $5, as well as whether the one I saw in W. Sp'fld was in fact the official "sample." plate. SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > The license plate to which Dan refereed is an official Pennsylvania license > plate. Why would someone be selling these plates in Springfield when they are > only available legally from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation when > you pay your registration fee? Seems like a commercial rip-off of the real > thing. > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:13:42 -0500 From: Frank Brua Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29 Mail Storage Cars To Ed and All: Yes, I did notice the radial roof on the pic in RMJ. The print reproduced in the Summer 1998 Keystone clearly states the assignment lettering is freight car red on a white background - at least in 1950. Perhaps the color changed at some point. I wasn't aware that a decal existed for this lettering. Thanks for the info. ELM2@aol.com wrote: > Frank and All, > Trucks nothing did you catch that roof? Is the > assignment panel white as in the Middle Div. Decals (sorry Jerry! sore spot I > know) or should it be yellow? Inquiring minds want to know. > Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:55:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives OK, I buy your explanation that the "J" was not a TRUE Pennsy engine - If steam had survived I suspect that they might have gotten the Belpaire fireboxes as Class n-2 did after WW 1. In addition to their lack of success I suspect that Classes "Q" and "T": were to modern to be considered for the "Historical" collection. BUT - no Class "C" "N" "O" "P" "S" or Articulateds were saved - how would you explain that? A more likely explanation was that the preservation effort was centered around Northumberland - and non were availible "nearby" - I have heard various rumours - unsubstantiated - that at least one Duplex, scheduled for "saving" derailed while being hauled east "Dead" - and that it was scrapped in place. Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:04:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] WESTSIDE MODELS??? From: Patrick M Egan The Westside aand earlier Balboa cars do have prototypes. They are not generic, but in fact an attempt at Great Northern cars. That this is not necessarily dead on is indicated by the Budd domes with smooth sides and roof. (Budd cars for the GN and some other roads had planked rather than fluted sides.) So you have a choice - put GN numbers and names on the cars, or use your imagination on Pennsy numbers and names. Pat Egan (no web access) On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:02:38 -0500 (EST) mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) writes: >Fellow PRR Modelers, > > I am suppose to put the finishing touches on a set of 5 PRR >Streamlined Pullman Passenger Cars made by West Side Models in the >early >1970's. They came factory painted with strips and the road name >applied. >My customer wants me to put the proper names and or numbers on these >cars. Problem is that I can not come up with any info to what cars >these >are suppose to be. All my drawings and photos I have doesn't match >these >cars. Does anyone know if these West Side models are for any prototype >Pennsy cars. If so, Can you let me know the names and or numbers I >can >apply to these. The set includes an 85' Baggage-mail-RPO?, 1 85' >Diner, >1 85' coach?, 1 85' duplex sleeper and one Bob-tailed Observation. I >believe these are all generic looking cars. Any body know for sure? >Gary > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:04:42 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > BUT - no Class "C" "N" "O" "P" "S" or Articulateds were saved - how would you > explain that? A more likely explanation was that the preservation effort was An uneducated guess: they were scrapped before the historical collection was even started. > centered around Northumberland - and non were availible "nearby" - I have > heard various rumours - unsubstantiated - that at least one Duplex, scheduled > for "saving" derailed while being hauled east "Dead" - and that it was > scrapped in place. That's equally likely... I have no great insight, I'm just guessing -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:21:27 EST Subject: [PRR] X-29 Mail Storage Cars In a message dated 2/3/99 12:42:55 PM Central Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << My question after all this background dialog: does anybody know how many cars were identified with these assigned routings and/or what timeframe they ran on the PRR? >> Don't have the answer and am glad you asked the question. However, I have another. Why did the PRR go to the trouble of so marking these cars? Why not just use one of the pool X29 REA cars as they more commonly did on other runs? Was there something special about these cars other than the marking? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:34:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR LOCO PRESERVATION Hello fellow PRR Guys, The following is what I have heard about the preservation of certain PRR LOCOS. Back in the mid-late 1950's the Pennsy did indeed have plans for saving the 3 engines mentioned in the original question that was posted here. A J1, Q2 and a T1 were all transported to Conway Yards outside of Pittsburgh for inclusion of the Nortumberland collection. They were all whitelined at the time. However, they were all then transported to Sharpsburg, Pa. We all know what happens to Locos' that arrive at that destination. Yes they were cut up. Either shipped to Sharpsburg by accident or on purpose it was a shame. I live in Beaver Falls, Pa.(near Conway Yards) and that has been the rumor floatng around this area for years. Is it true? I don't know. That is what I heard from several Historians in the Pittsburgh area. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:16:18 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] preserving steam Hi all, Here are the theories that I have regarding preservation of locomotives from the PRR. Locomotives in general were only preserved AFTER there was great interest in this. Many of the classes mentioned were retired early (such as the Duplexes) and as such there wasn't enough interest in preserving them. Of course, the I-1 worked up to the last days of steam, but these were not the sexy mainline greyhounds everyone thought about...the I-1 was responsible for the grey laundry on the line and the house rumbling on the foundation...and who wanted to preserve that? At the other end of the spectrum, we have the GG-1 which lasted into the 80's and consequenty numerous examples are preserved. Even with consciousness raised, only one E44 was saved. One final point, locomotives that retire "early", after short periods of service, do not generate the public consciousness that others might. This could explain the lack of BP20, BP-60(BF-50) as well. Finally, don't look for railroads to contribute too many second generation diesels to collections...the trade in on parts is often worth too much. Bottom line? The list of "lost classes" is a lot longer than the list of preserved locos. I personally mourn that of the PRR electrics, the DD-2, FF-2, R-1, O-1, P-5a modified, L-6 are all lost, but I celebrate that the DD-1, the prototype P-5, the lowly B-1, #4800 (old rivets) and numerous other GG-1s were saved. As has come up on this list before, and will come up again...There are two PRR locomotive in DESPERATE need of proper attention. The I-1, which belongs with the rest of the collection in Strasburg or at the museum in Altoona, and the P5 (#4700) which is rotting away in the back of a shed at the St. Louis museum. Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:00:48 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Stephen Bartlett wrote: > I DON'T think I am being taken. I merely was surprised to see the Not you, Rich.... > expected, souvenir, not-a-real-car-legal-automobile-registration plate > for sale in Massachusetts before I had seen any followup on the PRR list > re: the previous thread about the plate, as several people had been > keeping us up to date on its release. I had not seen any word of its > being available. Regarding the price of the souvenir plate, not the > real registration, and of course, assumptions may have been made > regarding the price, the early expectations were that it would be $5.00. Well, my reading of the quote you cited was $5 for the plate, plus the $15 for the museum.... Maybe not. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:32:26 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report I DON'T think I am being taken. I merely was surprised to see the expected, souvenir, not-a-real-car-legal-automobile-registration plate for sale in Massachusetts before I had seen any followup on the PRR list re: the previous thread about the plate, as several people had been keeping us up to date on its release. I had not seen any word of its being available. Regarding the price of the souvenir plate, not the real registration, and of course, assumptions may have been made regarding the price, the early expectations were that it would be $5.00. Quoting Dan Cupper's posting of December 23: "The plate costs $35, $15 of which is returned to the museum for programs, publications, etc. This fee is in addition to the regular registration fee. Several people reported that those manning the table said a sample plate with the number OOOO will be available (they're not yet stamped) for $5, for those who don't want to go the whole way with the plate, or for those who live out of state." Steve Bartlett Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > > The license plate to which Dan refereed is an official Pennsylvania license > > plate. Why would someone be selling these plates in Springfield when they are > > only available legally from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation when > > you pay your registration fee? Seems like a commercial rip-off of the real > > thing. > > The state issues "sample" plates which aren't valid for use on a PA > registered vehicle as a plate; You have to pay for them. Explain exactly > how you think it is you're being taken? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:28:46 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > > BUT - no Class "C" "N" "O" "P" "S" or Articulateds were saved - how would you > > explain that? A more likely explanation was that the preservation effort was > > An uneducated guess: they were scrapped before the historical collection > was even started. Duh. Well, the Ps would be an obvious exception... the modifieds at least. So much for that theory:-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] Chicago Union Station operations Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:24:07 -0600 I am looking for some clarification on the PRR's Chicago Union Station operations. The Panhandle route from the Logansport Indiana Division terminated at the North Concourse of Chicago Union Station, but I thought only Milwaukee Road passenger trains used the North Concourse at CUS. Did passenger trains on the Panhandle Route get switched over to the Fort Wayne Route once they entered the Chicago Terminal Division, via either the South Chicago & Southern branch line or the Englewood Connecting Line, thus entering CUS on the South Concourse? If that was the case, then what was the point of the Panhandle terminating on the North Concourse in the first place? I reviewed the September 1982 issue of the Keystone, which deals with the Chicago Terminal Division, but it doesn't offer a satisfactory explanation to this question. Can anyone shed some light on this issue? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:13:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report Pennsylvania License plates are made of aluminium. The state just opened bidding to supply the aluminium for the next fiscal year. The cost of any "special" plate is the basic registration fee for the vehicle (this varries for the type of vehicle, e.g. passenger car, pickup under 5000lbs gvw, pickup over 5000 gvw all pay different fees) plus the fee authorized in the enabling legislation. Each special plate must be approved through an amendment to the motor vehicle code. The legislation specifies how the fees will be used and the amount. The PRR plate will be $20 -- $5 goes to the general fund to pay the cost of producing the special plate and $15 goes to the special fund established in the legislation. The additional fee is a one time charge for the life of the plate. The routing of the funds may be the source of the information which appears to be inconsistent. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:16:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives >> An uneducated guess: they were scrapped before the historical collection >> was even started. > >Duh. Well, the Ps would be an obvious exception... the modifieds at least. >So much for that theory:-) Believe it or not, the modifieds were scrapped before the boxcabs (in general) which in fact may explain the lack of preserved modifieds as they weren't the "last" P5s running. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:07:22 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] PRR license plate Greetings to Steve and the list ! With the recent string of posts regarding the Pennsylvania state PRR-theme "Preserving Pennsylvania's Heritage" Grif Teller license plates, I thought it would be good to nail down the particulars, which seemed to be floating in air ever since the plate's introduction last fall. Here's the scoop: 1. For in-state residents wanting an actual plate for their vehicle: Pick up a PennDOT Form MV-906 at a notary public, auto club, or tag service and submit it to PennDOT according to the directions on the form. The cost is $35 in addition to your $36 registration fee. PennDOT's official position is that plates are issued in numerical order and you "can't" request a special number. This is not strictly so, because at the unveiling ceremony, PennDOT had a table and was selling plates on the spot -- the numbers were 500-599 and you could pick from among those (a friend of mine took 523 to match his birthday, May 23). So if there were some special event like this, the rules appear to be relaxed a little. Also, PennDOT certainly wouldn't advertise this, but if you know or can visit the office of an elected official such as a legislator or a state senator, either of whom represents your voting district in the Legislature, that person or an aide may be willing to make the request for you, and perhaps you could obtain a number out of rotation. I don't recommend an abuse of this system, but legislators *are* elected to work for the people they represent, and this would not be an unreasonable request for a constituent to make. As my dad would say, "It never hurts to ask," and its corollary, "All they can say is no." They're not going to suspend your license for asking. 2. For in-state or out-of-state residents who want a souvenir or sample plate, which bears the number 0000, send a $5 check, payable to the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation, to this address: Pennsylvania Department of Transportation, Sample Tags Unit, First Floor, 1101 South Front St., Harrisburg, PA 17104, specifically requesting the "Preserving Pennsylvania's Heritage" railroad sample plate. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Matt. 6:33 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:47:59 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Hi gang, I spent some time on a few web sites and came up with the following, by no means complete, list of pending HO scale PRR brass locos (and some prices from Peach Creek Hobbies) 1) Rail Classics - E6 Atlantic, 5 versions - Price? 2) Challenger Imports - M1/M1a/M1b, 210F75 or 210F75B tender, 5 versions, plus alternate smoke box, hedlight/generator and pilot in each box - list $1500 ($1208 Peach Creek) 3) Precision - J1, 210F84 tender, unpainted or #6150,6174,6450,6474, diff version? #6401,6434,6475,6500 - Price? 4) Precision - HH1, 18000gal, 26 ton (N&W) tender, keystone # plate, #374-378 - list $2114 ($1702, Peach Creek) 5) Precision - FF2 ,(ex GN Y-1) unpainted PRR version, #1-7 - Price? Geeeez, at least 3 are on my "gotta have" list!!! Time to start saving the $$$$$ Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:32:31 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] loco modifications Hi all, Looking though the advertisement for Challenger Imports HO brass M1/M1a/M1b I came up with the following questions concerning the date of various modifications. I'm interested both as these apply to the M1 class, but to other classes as well. Some of these may be simultaneous, others may not... Drop coupler pilot (cast) 6-Et to 8-Et brake system markers moved from pilot to boiler Generator/headlamp switch positions Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:17:45 -0500 Bruce, You can add to your list Key's "Benchmark" Q2 in two versions. Probably about $2,100 this time around! Then there's Challenger Imports 1938 and 1940 20th Century Limiteds. Oops, wrong list. Back to Pennsy, Railworks DD-1 and E44 electrics are coming someday, also. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 4:01 PM Subject: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos >Hi gang, > >I spent some time on a few web sites and came up with the following, by no >means complete, list of pending HO scale PRR brass locos (and some prices >from Peach Creek Hobbies) > >1) Rail Classics - E6 Atlantic, 5 versions - Price? > >2) Challenger Imports - M1/M1a/M1b, 210F75 or 210F75B tender, 5 versions, >plus alternate smoke box, hedlight/generator and pilot in each box - list >$1500 ($1208 Peach Creek) > >3) Precision - J1, 210F84 tender, unpainted or #6150,6174,6450,6474, diff >version? #6401,6434,6475,6500 - Price? > >4) Precision - HH1, 18000gal, 26 ton (N&W) tender, keystone # plate, >#374-378 - list $2114 ($1702, Peach Creek) > >5) Precision - FF2 ,(ex GN Y-1) unpainted PRR version, #1-7 - Price? > >Geeeez, at least 3 are on my "gotta have" list!!! Time to start saving the >$$$$$ > >Happy Rails, >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] anyone familiar with Detroit? Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:50:46 -0500 (EST) Is anyone on this list very familiar with Detroit? I'd like to ask some questions. Thanks. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:59:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Union Station operations In a message dated 2/4/99 8:40:08 AM Central Standard Time, rbiegaj@csc.cps.k12.il.us writes: << I am looking for some clarification on the PRR's Chicago Union Station operations. >> Naturally I can't lay my hand on my Chicago Division employee timetable, but it would seem one clue would be if a train stopped at Englewood. If so, you could safely say that it didn't use the "Bernice cutoff" going in the North end of CUS. Note that page 21 of the Sept 1982 article shows a picture of Train 215 from the Logansport Division at Englewood. My impression was that all PRR passenger trains went South out of Englewood (Ihave pictures including Union arriving and Soutwind departing from South end). Reason for connection to N. end eludes me, except I assume some interchange with North Western and Milwaukee might have been on that line,but can't imagine going all the way into CUS. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Historic collection Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:05:16 -0800 I don't remember where I learned this and don't have the time to research it so please don't ask for sources. As I recall the collection started out as an effort to have a display for a major event i.e. worlds fair or the like. It later grew as older engines were sent to the collection. It was not originally kept in northumberland but did end up there for some time. The collection started long before the end of steam but was added to over the years. Indeed the collection started before WWII and it was an effort to keep the steel from being scrapped for the war effort. Saving pieces for a collection is always a financial decision in the cost of the piece its up keep and storage not to mention its shipping. It is probable that the management at the time of the scrapping of the "big" steam was not interested in preservation or possibly could not justify the cost. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:47:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Union Station operations In a message dated 2/4/99 8:22:24 PM Central Standard Time,I wrote : << My impression was that all PRR passenger trains went South out of Englewood >> I meant to say "went out of the South end of Chicago Union Station." Excuse the "senior moment". Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 22:11:59 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Gosh, with the way prices for brass are going these days, that older Japanese brass from the 60's and 70's looks more and more appealing! :) Ted "the frugal Scotsman" Andrews ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Author: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." at Internet Date: 2/4/99 5:04 PM Hi gang, I spent some time on a few web sites and came up with the following, by no means complete, list of pending HO scale PRR brass locos (and some prices from Peach Creek Hobbies) 1) Rail Classics - E6 Atlantic, 5 versions - Price? 2) Challenger Imports - M1/M1a/M1b, 210F75 or 210F75B tender, 5 versions, plus alternate smoke box, hedlight/generator and pilot in each box - list $1500 ($1208 Peach Creek) 3) Precision - J1, 210F84 tender, unpainted or #6150,6174,6450,6474, diff version? #6401,6434,6475,6500 - Price? 4) Precision - HH1, 18000gal, 26 ton (N&W) tender, keystone # plate, #374-378 - list $2114 ($1702, Peach Creek) 5) Precision - FF2 ,(ex GN Y-1) unpainted PRR version, #1-7 - Price? Geeeez, at least 3 are on my "gotta have" list!!! Time to start saving the $$$$$ Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:54:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Bob Boyd's Rail Classics (or close to that) Bob (or someone) , could you repost your website address. In one of the three crashes this year, I lost the address and inadvertently deleted the recent message. Offline response is probably appropriate. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:08:29 EST Subject: [PRR] "Lost" H40 and H41 PRR Covered Hoppers The search continues for the "lost" H40 and H41 GATC covered hoppers leased by PRR. Thanks to Rich Orr, Eric Neubauer, Ron Dugas, and Rich Burg who dug into their files and photos. We now know the following: Class Number Order Scheme Source H40 261444 1st SK2b PRR Color Guide 1 p63 (E.Roy Ward photo) H40 261447 1st SK2b Keystone 83-Dec p9 (photo by Rich Burg) H40 261449 1st SK2b Rich Burg collection H40 261455 1st SK2b Rick Tipton slide H40 261426 2nd SK2b/a PRR Color Guide 2 p71 (D.P. Holbrook photo) H40 (1962 diagram) 4th & 5th PK Middle Division (PRR Compendium p75) H40 260427 4th PK Rick Tipton slide H40 260428 4th PK Rick Tipton slide H40 260445 4th PK Rich Burg collection H40 260464 4th PK Rick Tipton slide H40 261337 5th PK Keystone 83-Dec P9 (Grant Lowry coll.) H40 261390 5th PK Rich Burg collection H40 261398 5th PK Rick Tipton slide H41 261003 1st SK2b PRR Color Guide 1 p63 (H.E Brouse photo) H41 261012 2nd SK2b/a Keystone 83-Dec P10 (Grant Lowry coll.) H41 (1962 diagram) none PK Middle Division (PRR Compendium p76) When I study the above pix, I see several interesting things: 1. So far as we can prove, the 1962 PK diagram for the H41 Dry Flo was never used on a real car (so with typical modelers' luck, it will appear in HO in this livery within the year). 2. There are two examples of a hybrid phase SK2b/a visible. In these, the number is in serif, whereas the PRR above it is in "plain gothic" (think futura style letters). It's probably significant that these examples were delivered in September and November 1961, after most SK2b painting had given way to PK. So far as we know, this hybrid is unique to GATC. 3. We still have only one picture of H40 order 2 and none of H40 order 3. It would be nice to find more pictures in these small orders: - H40 second order PRR 261426-261437 Nov 1961 (late for SK2b, only shot shows SK2b/a) - H40 third order PRR 261420-261425 Dec 1961 (later for SK2b) 4. We have only one picture of each order of H41: - H41 first order 261001-261006 April 1961 (SK2b as expected?) - H41 second order 261007-261016 Sept 1961 (late for SK2b, only shot shows SK2b/a) Again, thanks for all your help. Any additions will be enthusiastically welcomed. Otherwise, I'm going to be honest and say "I don't know, and I certainly can't prove…" Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ATSF01@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:55:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos In a message dated 2/5/99 1:08:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, ted.andrews@woolpert.com writes: << Gosh, with the way prices for brass are going these days, that older Japanese brass from the 60's and 70's looks more and more appealing! :) Ted "the frugal Scotsman" Andrews >> Hi Ted The major trade off is Quality. After seeing the Quality Difference between an Older PFM or even Westside model and The New Challenger or W&R models. I think the price difference is worth the extra working hours necessary to obtain the great detail. Say, do you know where I can find one of the Challenger Imports PRR 2-8-0's. Actually would like two. I cannot seem to find them on a brass list anywhere. Thanks Ken Patterson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:09:04 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: Bob Boyd's Rail Classics (or close to that) >Bob (or someone) , could you repost your website address. In one of the three >crashes this year, I lost the address and inadvertently deleted the recent >message. Offline response is probably appropriate. > > >Bob Zoeller ===== Well, gee, Bob, You can hardly expect me to pass up a chance to promo "The Limited", can you? I'm not sure if "Rail Classics" is merited just yet, tho' I keep working on it. Some time soon, one hopes. ;-) http://www.thoseclassictrains.com That's show business! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:26:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Bob Boyd's Rail Classics (or close to that) In a message dated 2/5/99 5:24:49 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Confusion reigns, here >> And it was all mine, which is why I couldn't find the site using search engines. Thanks for giving me the address. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:14:31 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Historic collection From: locoshop@juno.com Rich, Actually I believe I had seen this in a issue of I believe Rail Classics magazine about 2 or so years ago. It was a 6-8 page write up and I do remember reading that in there. I have long since gotten rid of that issue though, anyone dare to find the date? On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:10:34 EST PRRMAN@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 99-02-04 21:11:13 EST, gas@fastinet.net writes: >An article in either the Keystone or High Line a few years ago >mentioned a local management type who had been ordered by >the upper brass to scrap the whole collection, but, by juggling >the records and telling different stories to different people, >managed to avoid ever having to follow through on these orders. >Does anyone else recall seeing this? > >Rich Copeland Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Bob Boyd's Rail Classics (or close to that) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 99 06:13:23 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/4/99 9:54 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Bob (or someone) , could you repost your website address. In one of the three >crashes this year, I lost the address and inadvertently deleted the recent >message. Offline response is probably appropriate. Confusion reigns, here... Bob Boyd's company is Those Classic Trains at http://www.thoseclassictrains.com Rail Classics, the company doing brass, is at http://www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:10:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Historic collection In a message dated 99-02-04 21:11:13 EST, gas@fastinet.net writes: << It is probable that the management at the time of the scrapping of the "big" steam was not interested in preservation or possibly could not justify the cost. >> An article in either the Keystone or High Line a few years ago mentioned a local management type who had been ordered by the upper brass to scrap the whole collection, but, by juggling the records and telling different stories to different people, managed to avoid ever having to follow through on these orders. Does anyone else recall seeing this? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:12:29 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos >Bruce, > You can add to your list Key's "Benchmark" Q2 in two versions. >Probably about $2,100 this time around! Then there's Challenger Imports 1938 >and 1940 20th Century Limiteds. Oops, wrong list. > Back to Pennsy, Railworks DD-1 and E44 electrics are coming someday, >also. >Jerry Breon Key Imports PRR Q-2 4-4-6-4 Duplex as built 1944, f/p & lettered #6131 TBA TBA PRR Q-2 4-4-6-4 Duplex, f/p & lettered #6175-6199 1945 run TBA TBA Given the list price of the Key T-1s two years ago ($2100), I would expect a list price on the order of $2500. I will ask around As for Railworks...their visibility seems to have decrease dramatically...any idea if that is real or just my perception? Finally, with respect to new PRR electrics, Rail Classics have a P5 release planned. Personally, I hope the E-6 is a great success and the P5 follows hot on its tail. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ _________________________