From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:08:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] Stock car mixture In a message dated 1/31/99 3:20:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, hendricr@SONOMA.EDU writes: > Many were being > used to haul not stock but melons; apparently, stock cars worked well in > lieu of ventilated box cars. A recent issue of the PRRTechnical & Historical Society Keystone detailed how stock cars were used to move the tomato harvest from Lancaster PA to Campbell Soup, Camden NJ. This was in lieu of ventilated boxes. One can only hope these tomatoes were in baskets. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:07:28 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco DL109 Resent-From: bobp@walt.tsc.com Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:24:53 -0500 I just put up a scan of New Haven DL109 #1270 under catenary. The URL is: . It was taken from the engineer's seat of an opposing train, and it's a bit blurry and faded. I got this slide at an auction last year. It's 120 film glass mounted. I have no idea who the photographer was, or when or where it was taken. Any one have any ideas? In the same box, I got a slide of a PRR GP-?? passing Limedale, IN tower. Too bad the quality is not very good. If anyone is interested, I'll scan it and put it on the web. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Technology Service Corp. Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:23:07 -0500 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] M1 cab roof color Hi, I was at a train show this past weekend and saw a O scale model of an M1 (or M1a? didn't notice) and the cab roof and the tender deck was painted red oxide (or some such color). Question: Was this a real paint scheme? If so, when were these engines painted like this and what was the real color used? (i.e. what floquil/scalecoat color is good and would it appear on my 1949 layout? :) I have very few color photos of PPR steam so I didn't find any info when i got home. When the weather warms I will be getting around to painting my S scale M1a and I though the redish color scheme looked pretty nice. Thanks, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Springfield Mass train show report.. Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:03:23 -0500 Hi all, On Saturday I made the trek to W. Springfield Mass for the train show there... Some highlights.. Stewart.. Initial C628's should be out next month... Bethlehem Car Works - Scenery baggage cars and horse express car kits should be out sometime around March. No samples to check out though. They're also doing PRR truc train trailers! These are also coming soon... LBF - asked about the BP20's that were announced many moons ago. They said that the project wasn't dead but is being worked as a background item. Basically, don't hold your breath! Model Memories, nothing new except that they have display cases with PRR catenary.. Branchline Trains, They had their 50' boxcars there. They look great! The PRR bodies are molded and painted up. The cars should be out in the next few weeks. They also had sample unpainted bodies of their 40' car... Atlas.. scheduled to appear but pulled a no show! Intermountain had test shots of their F7's. They look real nice. They are doing the correct pilots for the PRR ones. I suggested dimples on the undersides of the roof for PRR trainphone antennas. They seemed very receptive to this. One can only hope! First units that are scheduled out are NYC. I think March was the target release date but I could be wrong.. Shells should be in the $50 range.. About the same as the Athearn/Highliner ones. My big purchase for the day was a Railworks G41a coil car... now to use it as a guide to build some more out of styrene! That's all I can think of offhand... Rob http://prr.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tower Razing Status? Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:03:27 -0500 There's a photo in the new issue of Railpace of MO coming down... sad. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 3:14 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Tower Razing Status? > > > Anyone know if the wrecking ball has reached AR and MG towers yet? > > Last the subject was discussed, Conrail was to have these two down by > March. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:05:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 cab roof color Keith, You probably don't realize what a sensative subject you have hit on but... >I was at a train show this past weekend and saw >a O scale model of an M1 (or M1a? didn't notice) >and the cab roof and the tender deck was >painted red oxide (or some such color). Question: >Was this a real paint scheme? Yes, it was >If so, when were >these engines painted like this and what was >the real color used? Apparently, from the time they were built, although opinions seem to differ. As for the color, opinions REALLY differ there, and it is in part due to the different practices of different shops. I favor a more RED color, while other favor a freight car color. To me, the red seems to mimic one set of painting instructions which called for red and black mixed in certain proportions. I make mine with Poly Scale Caboose red, with enough black (a few drops) added to "look right". This is great as each cab/tender will look slightly different. In addition, unless the loco is FRESH out of the paint shop, you'll need to weather the living bejeebers out of these areas BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane (spelling?) red" paints? Happy Painting Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:42:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) In a message dated 2/1/99 12:32:41 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane (spelling?) red" paints? >> Usually the keystone is small enough in HO that I grab what looks right under the light I am working with. Still, I have not come up with a good one, using SP , SF or other reds. I think we SPFs need to get the Coca-Cola paint spec (same color, I am led to believe) and find the closest Polly-Scale (or other brand) color once and for all. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Homesignal@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:00:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) In a message dated 2/1/99 3:52:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > << BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane (spelling?) > > red" paints? >> Many years ago, a bunch of my pals decided to repaint the PRR station sign that was still on the tower at HOLMES (Holmesburg Junction) on the Philadelphia--NYC mainline. As you know, station signs usually used Toluidine Red. They discovered that a major paint manufacturer (DuPont, if I recall properly) still had the formula on file and we were able to get five gallons. I'll ask some of those guys and see if I can find out the formula, as something tells me they wrote it down. ~Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:36:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Springfield Mass train show report.. I went to the show too (SO many people - more than last year? - guess model railroading is pretty healthy as a hobby). As last year, one of my favorite displays was George Barrett's of Sheepscot Scale Products. As some of you may know, he is working on a 100 ft. tugboat (larger than the 50 footer). The first one will probably be a NYC Steam tug (June). Later (Sept 99) comes a PRR diesel tug (e.g. Chicago, Philadelphia). Can't Wait! Mike Hagan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:23:45 -0500 The PRRT&HS sells draft cards of the "47-2627" ( Toluidine Red Enamel) for $2.50 from Ivan Frantz.....they are the official 1953 colors. Then any good paint manufacture can match it, for a price! Bill ---------- > From: Homesignal@aol.com > To: Prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) > Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:00 PM > > In a message dated 2/1/99 3:52:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com > writes: > > > << BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane > (spelling?) > > > > red" paints? >> > > Many years ago, a bunch of my pals decided to repaint the PRR station sign > that was still on the tower at HOLMES (Holmesburg Junction) on the > Philadelphia--NYC mainline. As you know, station signs usually used Toluidine > Red. They discovered that a major paint manufacturer (DuPont, if I recall > properly) still had the formula on file and we were able to get five gallons. > I'll ask some of those guys and see if I can find out the formula, as > something tells me they wrote it down. > > ~Chris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:13:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) In a message dated 2/1/99 6:53:45 PM Central Standard Time, boxcar46@nfdc.net writes: << Bob, Where did you ever come up with the color of "Toluidine Red Enamel" for the steel cab roof? >> Not guilty. I was responding to what I considered to be an unrelated (to the cabroof) question regarding a recommendation about model sources for Touidine Red. I assumed the questioner knew where it went, keystones and signs, as you stated. I did not even want to get in to the cabroof question. First it has been discussed a lot. Second, it varied from freight car red (almost orangy) to nonexistent (on later steamers), depending on geography and era. M1s are a special case. Clearly, some earlier steamers started with the red roof. Clearly, I have never seen a J1 with one (never say never, I know). I have seen models of Q2s with the red roof but I just don't personally believe they ever had that color applied in the prototype. Some sources say that the practice stopped starting with the M1 and that's where the debate begins. I don't personally know if that is true. Regards, Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:51:44 -0500 Bob, Where did you ever come up with the color of "Toluidine Red Enamel" for the steel cab roof? I have a copy of the spec's from 1929 and it says: ( Roof above the rain gutters- repainting when only one coat is applied) will be - MIXTURE OF THREE PARTS OF FREIGHT CAR COLOR AND ONE PART BLACK ! I can't find any place the even suggest that the roofs were ever RED ! The primer coat was also a color called " Freight car color" which I guess could be called "red"....* It should be remembered that "Freight Car Color" refers to the old light freight car red in use in the 1920's, 30's, and 40's, which was a much lighter shade than used in more recent years. The only place that I can find that "Toluidine red used is in the Keystone's and Station Signs. ( But of course I could be wrong?) Bill ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) > Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 3:42 PM > > In a message dated 2/1/99 12:32:41 PM Central Standard Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > << BTW, Does anyone out there have a reccome4ndation on "toulidane (spelling?) > red" paints? >> > > Usually the keystone is small enough in HO that I grab what looks right under > the light I am working with. Still, I have not come up with a good one, using > SP , SF or other reds. I think we SPFs need to get the Coca-Cola paint spec > (same color, I am led to believe) and find the closest Polly-Scale (or other > brand) color once and for all. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 19:51:07 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Stewart RS-12 Gentlemen: Does anyone know where the Stewart Hobbies RS-12's are still being sold? I put off on buying this engine only to find it was discontinued by Stewart. If any of you know of a hobby shop or someone that has just one to sell, I would appreciate any information. Thank you in advance! Ted (the procrastinator) Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:20:38 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Springfield Mass train show report.. Russ Briggs said that by early afternoon Saturday the attendance had passed 25,000. No wonder it was so hard to move around. And did anyone see Cliffie Stone's O Scale Hulett unloader and his rotary dumper? Steve Bartlett Ljgurke@aol.com wrote: > > I went to the show too (SO many people - more than last year? - guess model > railroading is pretty healthy as a hobby). As last year, one of my favorite > displays was George Barrett's of Sheepscot Scale Products. As some of you may > know, he is working on a 100 ft. tugboat (larger than the 50 footer). The > first one will probably be a NYC Steam tug (June). Later (Sept 99) comes a > PRR diesel tug (e.g. Chicago, Philadelphia). Can't Wait! > > Mike Hagan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:02:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] WESTSIDE MODELS??? Fellow PRR Modelers, I am suppose to put the finishing touches on a set of 5 PRR Streamlined Pullman Passenger Cars made by West Side Models in the early 1970's. They came factory painted with strips and the road name applied. My customer wants me to put the proper names and or numbers on these cars. Problem is that I can not come up with any info to what cars these are suppose to be. All my drawings and photos I have doesn't match these cars. Does anyone know if these West Side models are for any prototype Pennsy cars. If so, Can you let me know the names and or numbers I can apply to these. The set includes an 85' Baggage-mail-RPO?, 1 85' Diner, 1 85' coach?, 1 85' duplex sleeper and one Bob-tailed Observation. I believe these are all generic looking cars. Any body know for sure? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:08:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Need Help with PRR H40 and H41 As some of you know, I'm preparing an article for the Keystone illustrating PRR Covered Hopper Car lettering schemes. There seems to be some amazing holes in the group of photo collections I'm working with. The orders I'm after are smallish, but it's as if all the railfans (including me in the 70s) said, "I've shot the first Airslide I saw, and now I don't have to shoot any more". First of all, we have multiple pics of the first, fourth, and fifth orders of the H40, an Airslide leased from GATC. But I need to check pictures of - H40 second order PRR 261426-261437 Nov 1961 - H40 third order PRR 261420-261425 Dec 1961 Just for fun, go to PRR Color Guide 2 page 71 where 261426 is illustrated. This pic, only one presently known of either order, appears to be a mix of phase SK2a and SK2b. Of course, this @#$%^&* car was delivered 5 months after the later of those schemes supposedly ended. Then there is the H41, another leased car from GATC, but a longer carbody and with "Dry Flo" pressurized unloading instead of "Airslide". Out of the two orders, I have found only two pictures. One of these is in PRR Color Guide 1 page 63 and shows 261003 in SK2b. I need to check more pix out of - H41 first order 261001-261006 April 1961 (should be SK2b) - H41 second order 261007-261016 Sept 1961 (should be PK) Please note that I'm not asking you to lend me your pictures, or necessarily even make copies. I can analyze pics via text email if necessary. But if you are able to check your resources, it will enable me to be sure that what I write is not leading further generations of researchers and modelers astray. Many thanks, Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:03:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) I was interested to also learn of the use and application of Toluidine Red. I hesitate to mention, therefore, that I have been using off-the-shelf Rustoleum Red and Yellow to periodically refinish (with quite acceptable results), my PRR station sign "HUNTINGDON'". I also have an original (un-retouched ) sign from CRESSON to compare it to. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:57:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATSF - Modeling stainless steel In a message dated 2/1/99 3:15:57 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, VVA249 writes: << Boy are you gonna get "flamed" - correcting "Steal" then adding a second "L" (STEELL) to the correct spelling Dick Ross >> To All, Betrayed by my spell checker and bifocals, I hang my head in shame. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:49:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 cab roof color Oh, NO! The steam roof thread had resurfaced. Did we decide if it was straight oxide or oxide/blc mixture. Oh, yes, it is correct but the tint of the oxide red has been in dispute. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eugene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] Roof Paint Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:20:16 -0800 I am looking for information on N6b and ND paint schemes. I am interested in what color the roofs were. I have looked at several color photos and they appear to be black where the canvas was applied to the roof surface. Was this the rule or the exception? Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:58:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Roof Paint In a message dated 2/2/99 1:49:08 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, eedlg@concentric.net writes: << I am looking for information on N6B and ND paint schemes. I am interested in what color the roofs were. I have looked at several color photos and they appear to be black where the canvas was applied to the roof surface. Was this the rule or the exception? Gene Deimling >> Gene, According to the article on painting and lettering of cabin cars in the December 1974 Keystone, the roofs of car bodies and cupolas and the underframes were to be covered with asphaltum. This means all roofs were black. The variation was how much of the cupola was covered with asphaltum. According to the standards, the sides of the cupola were to be painted the same color as the car body. In practice, the older a car got, the more asphaltum covered the cupola. Vol. 2 of Morning Sun's Color Guide of PRR Freight & Passenger Equipment by Ian Fischer has numerous shots of N6Bs awaiting scrapping in the early '60s with black cupolas. It's particularly noticeable against the post-1954 yellow MOW scheme. For guidance, refer to photos of specific models in the era being modeled. Remember that 1913 and 1923 PRR Lines West built far fewer of the N6B with its slope-sided "Panhandle" cupola than the N6A with its large "Lines West" cupola as the N6B was designed to fit the close clearances in the 10 tunnels on the Panhandle Division Pittsbburgh-Columbus mainline between Pittsburgh and Newark, Ohio. During the clearance improvement program in the 1930 all but one N6A received replacement "Panhandle" cupolas and were reclassified as an N6B. The extra 20 years of service on Panhandle Div. N6Bs assigned to Columbus may account for the large number of all-black cupolas shown in Fischer's photos the PRR Color Guide Vol. 2. Most were taken in and around Columbus. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:47:18 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Springfield Mass train show report.. And, only minutes later, I stand corrected. Later word is that the two-day total was only around 19,000. I must leave now and go look for my egg remover. Steve B. Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > Russ Briggs said that by early afternoon Saturday the attendance had > passed 25,000. No wonder it was so hard to move around............ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:36:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] Need Help with PRR H40 and H41 Rick: Have you checked the article "PRR Covered Hoppers of the 1960's" in the Keystone? I don't recall the issue and my copy is at home. I'll check tonight and see which pictures are in the article. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine red (was M1 cab roof color) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:14:18 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 1 Feb, "Bill Knepper" wrote: > The only place that I can find that "Toluidine red used is in the > Keystone's and Station Signs. ( But of course I could be wrong?) The other place is the keystone background and lettering color on the first Merchandise Service paint scheme. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Q2 roof color Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:19:58 -0800 I know the roof color has been discussed over and over in the past. I wasn't reading PRR talk then, so forgive me for adding. However the Keystone has been fairly clear on this subject and had in early issues talked about original paints and touch up paints. As to the subject what was original freight car red, I have mentioned the way to resolve this issue to some degree. The NX23 at the altoona museum has red showing through the peeling pre1954 MOW gray paint. A chemist has offered to have a chip analyzed for chemical content. He assures me that weathering and other statements made about acid washes prior to repaint will not effect the analysis. No one has offered to get a 1/2" chip to have it analyzed as of yet. I live in california so untill I visit later in the year I must rely on a local volunteer. Any takers? The issue of J1s and Q2s having "red" roofs and tender tops has been a subject of debate. Some state that the above mentioned keystone articles and evidence was from an earlier date and may not have applied to these later built engines. It has been surmised by some that war time engines did not have "red" roofs so as not to attract attention to potential air threats, same as the S.P. daylight GS4s were painted black. I recently purchased a Sunset 3rd Rail Q2 in O scale and mentioned this to Mort Mann. He assured me that his data said they were painted red. I was not convinced untill I saw a video clip of a Q2 that definately had a "red" tender top and I believe cab roof also. I can not tell you the video exactly as I have ,if not all, most all PRR videos out there and I don't remember which one it was. To avoid my bias I asked my wife what color she saw there and she said reddish brown. My wife could care less about trains about as much as I care about her latest style jewelry. I think that eliminates any bias on her part. --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car roof color Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:56:53 -0800 According to the Keystone articleVol 7 No. 4 " The first paint color specifications issued by the PRR, about 1885, were for a standard 'Cabin Car Color.' The pigment was scarlet lead chromate, specially treated to achieve the bright red color desired for added safety from rear end collisions. This pigment was chosen as a less-expensive substitute for vermilion, which was probably used (possibly mixed with other pigments) before the 1885 specifications. The specified cabin car pigment was changed to straight toluidine red, also a bright red, in October 1911; this standard applied to both Lines East and Lines West of Pittsburgh. Although the specification for toluidine red was reprinted as late as 1919, some lettering arrangements for allied lines such as N.Y.P. & N. specify freight car color as of 7-9-1915 and scarlet lead chromate before that. We have not seen Pennsylvania or Pennsylvania Lines cabin car lettering arrangements before 1920; after 1920, PRR arrangements specified PRR standard freight car color for the entire body of the car. The pigment for this color was originally iron sesqioxide, to match PRR standard samples, but other pigments have been used since. In fact, freight car color has become increasingly dark tending to brown as synthetic pigments have been introduced over the years. The pigment of the 1920-1940 era was a much lighter shade ,with almost an orange tint; as recent as the 1950's the standard color was lighter than in the years just before the merger. Freight car color remained the standard car color until 1965." ...............................etc. "The paint colors described are the basic body colors, also used for the underframe, trucks, and wheels on repaint work (at least in the 1930's). New trucks were painted black. According to PRR specifications for class NB cabin cars, dated April 1890, scarlet lead chromate was applied to the outside of the car body, while the roof and truck (wooden parts of the underbody, probably including the platforms) were metallic brown. All iron work was black. A 1904 Lines West cabin car drawing refers to "metallic brown roof paint," so similar schemes might have been used west of Pittsburgh. Various parts of later cabin cars were painted other colors. Beginning 1949, for example, the curved handholds and the verticle handholds on the corner posts were to be painted chrome yellow. From 1920, perhaps earlier, the car roofs were body color, but black was introduced for roofs by the late 1940's and used later on the cupola as well. Often the entire cupola and roof were black, but cupola side and end sheets were commonly painted body color, particularly on focal orange cars, on which....... "......1960s etc. Hope this helps! Greg . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eugene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] Caboose Colors Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:05:15 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4EEF.BAD4A180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg et al; Thanks for the help on the colors Gene Deimling ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4EEF.BAD4A180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg et al;
Thanks for the help on the = colors
Gene = Deimling
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4EEF.BAD4A180-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:28:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Q2 roof color In a message dated 2/2/99 10:02:15 PM Central Standard Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << I was not convinced untill I saw a video clip of a Q2 that definately had a "red" tender top and I believe cab roof also. >> Now you've mapped out my weekend for me:-). Like you, I have most PRR videos and I'll look for the Q2 you mention as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:47:55 EST Subject: [PRR] re: ND, N5, N6 Vagel, The ND was Lines East's first steel underframe and the last bobber design. It was introduced in 1904 when Lines West adopted the all-wood NC bobber. As Lines East considered the woof bodied, eight-wheeled N4, a single car class, Lines West introduced the NE and NEa, the last all-wood cabin car design adopted by the PRR. Lines East would have one more wood-bodied cabin with steel underframe, the single car N4 class, before the Ohio General Assembly forced the Pennsylvania to innovate by effectively outlawing all-wood cabooses. Ohio''s 1913 caboose safety law mandated steel underframes on any caboose in pusher service. The decision to go with eight wheels for better tracking was the railroad. Stall independent buy cooperative, Lines East and Lines West settled on different designs which went into production in 1914, Lines East chose the all-steel N5 and shipped all of its NC cabins to Lines West. Lines West choose the wood bodied N6 class in two variation, the N6A with the wide Lines West cupola and the N6B with its slope-sided cupola to negotiate the narrow tunnels of the Panhandle Div. Columbus-Pittsburgh mainline. Costs were cut as Lines West salvaged the wood bodies of the all-wood NBa, NC, NE and NEa classes, lengthened them and put them on new steel underframes. It was the rebuilding that resulted in subtle variations within the subclasses. The bodies were split to one side of the cupola resulting in the offset cupolas in rebuilt NBa, NE and NEa cabins. The NC cabins received new cupolas so these new structures may have been centered as were new cars built in the construction program lasting until 1923. Lengthened short bodies of the NBa class' smaller bodies resulted in cars with the side windows noticeably closer to the cat ends. In 1927 some ND cabins were lengthened four feet, received two four-wheeled trucks and were reclassified NDa. As operations were consolidated with the phasing out of the separate Pittsburgh-based corporate structure in 1923, the N6 cabins remained on Lines West and N5 cabins on Lines East. Both classes migrated but in the Fifties most N6Bs could be found on Lines West, N5s on Lines East. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:31:20 EST Subject: [PRR] corrected ND, N5, N6 When my medication wears off, typing and even using spell checkers becomes very difficult so errors creep in. Such was the case of the first version of this posting. Here's the corrected version. Tom V. Vagel, The ND was Lines East's first steel underframe and the last bobber design. It was introduced in 1904 when Lines West adopted the all-wood NC bobber. As Lines East considered the woof bodied, eight-wheeled N4, a single car class, Lines West introduced the NE and NEa, the last all-wood cabin car design adopted by the PRR before the Ohio General Assembly forced the Pennsylvania to innovate by effectively outlawing all-wood cabooses. Ohio''s 1913 caboose safety law mandated steel underframes on any caboose in pusher service. The decision to go with eight wheels for better tracking was the railroad. Still operated as independent railroads but cooperative, Lines East and Lines West settled on different designs which went into production in 1914, Lines East chose the all-steel N5 and shipped all of its NC cabins to Lines West. Lines West choose the wood bodied N6 class in two variation, the N6A with the wide Lines West cupola and the N6B with its slope-sided cupola to negotiate the narrow tunnels of the Panhandle Div. Columbus-Pittsburgh mainline. Costs were cut as Lines West salvaged the wood bodies of the all-wood NBa, NC, NE and NEa classes, lengthened them and put them on new steel underframes. It was the rebuilding that resulted in subtle variations within the subclasses. The bodies were split to one side of the cupola resulting in the offset cupolas in rebuilt NBa, NE and NEa cabins. The NC cabins received new cupolas so these new structures may have been centered as were new cars built in the construction program lasting until 1923. Lengthened short bodies of the NBa class' smaller bodies resulted in cars with the side windows noticeably closer to the car ends. In 1927 some ND cabins were lengthened four feet, received two four-wheeled trucks and were reclassified NDa. Until operations were consolidated with the phasing out of the separate Pittsburgh-based corporate structure in 1923, the N6 cabins remained on Lines West and N5 cabins on Lines East. After consolidation examples of these two most numerous PRR cabin car classes migrated systemwide. Still in 1957 the majority of the more than 860 N6Bs could be found on Lines West, most of the more than 620 N5s on Lines East. Tom V. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:17:24 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Q2 roof color >I recently purchased a Sunset 3rd Rail Q2 in O scale and mentioned this to >Mort Mann. >He assured me that his data said they were painted red. I was not convinced >untill I saw a video clip of a Q2 that definately had a "red" tender top and >I believe cab roof also. Color photos and film of anything earlier than the 50's can be hard to come by and the film is often biased in the red direction (Dad was a chemist for Kodak ). That said, I did some looking last night as well. One quote I found that was intriguing was Don Ball's (In PRR 40's and 50's) where he claims that older and smaller classes had red roofs, with the M1 being the last to recieve such treatment. Red tender decks were standard on all classes. As I looked through his book, the only really "red" roofs I saw were on a freshly painted set of an E5 and an E6 Atlantic on a 1947 fan trip. Looking more carefully, one can pick up very slight hints of red roofs in a number of photos. The dead give-away is the backside of the cabin top deflector. As to the color, in one photo in particular, of newly shopped locos dead during a strike in the 50's, there is a freight car color hopper next to the locos, and the red tender deck is VERY RED compared to the hopper (side by side comparison compensating for any film deviation). Also, not one loco in that line has a red roof (K4, M1, H10, I1, J1) My suggestion? I paint my locos with zinc chromate primer, which is a pretty good color for the red/brown-red. On early locos, or freshly shopped locos, mask off the roof to keep it pristine, and then weather with soot. On anything that's been out of the shop more than a week or so, don't bother to mask, and let the DGLE overspray cover most of the red. Try not to spray the roof directly, unless you feel that your class had a DGLE roof, and make sure that the overspray comes from natural directions (ie let the primer show through on the back of the cabin top deflector!). Additionally, newly painted locos "graphite" smoke boxes look almost black (very very little silver) and older locos look slightly more metalic (lighter black), combined with a lot of RUST! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SMOKIECAT@webtv.net (Steve L) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:58:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] SEPTA Regional RR Track Charts Does anyone have Track Charts or Track Maps of the SEPTA Philadelphia, Network ---Track ,Switches,Interlockings,Platforms Thank you Steve Lowenthal -------------------------------------------- Mikie Lowenthal, the Cat Tiger Lowenthal,the other Cat Smokie Lowenthal,Tiger's Brother and of course Chris D. Lowenthal--Esq.(My Son). ____________________________________ Old Address 59 New Ludlow Road #8B Chicopee Mass 01020 413 533 0396 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:29:19 -0500 From: Frank Brua Subject: [PRR] X-29 Mail Storage Cars Does anyone have information on the X-29's in REA lettering that had assigned routings stenciled in 18" x 9' panels on their left sides? The Summer 1998 Keystone has a copy of drawing D444223 with latest change letter dated 4/51 that shows two specific assigned routings; Mail Storage Phila-Pittsburgh and Mail Storage Akron-Columbus. The 8/97 issue of Railmodel Journal has a picture of car #100688 on page 17 which has the Akron-Columbus routing and has also been equipped with drop equalizer high speed express trucks. Photo is dated 9/50. My question after all this background dialog: does anybody know how many cars were identified with these assigned routings and/or what timeframe they ran on the PRR? Thanks guys - I know one of you has the answers out there somewhere. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:20:31 -0600 What was the PRR's rationale for preserving some examples of its steam motive power, but not others. Was it that financially strapped in the 1950's that not one J1, T1, or Q2 couldn't have been preserved? Their scrap value couldn't have been so great that saving at least one of each model would have made that great of a difference to the company's financial situation. I suspect it was something more than mere dollars and cents. I realize the duplex locomotives were a disappointment for the PRR, if not an embarrassment, but the J1 had a pretty impressive record. I know its all water under the bridge at this point, but I was hoping someone could enlighten me on this issue. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:27:07 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report What appeared to be this sample plate was for sale by a dealer at the W. Springfield show; asking price $20.00. I have not bought one yet. It felt like thin fibreglass or other non-metallic substance, had the four zeros, and the word "SAMPLE" in small white block letters arranged vertically to the right of the numbers. Is there any update from Pennsylvania on this plate? Dan Cupper wrote: [back on 12/22/98] > ....................... > The plate costs $35, $15 of which is returned to the museum for > programs, publications, etc. This fee is in addition to the regular > registration fee. Several people reported that those manning the table > said a sample plate with the number OOOO will be available (they're not > yet stamped) for $5, for those who don't want to go the whole way with > the plate, or for those who live out of state. > .................. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:30:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Richard Biegaj wrote: > What was the PRR's rationale for preserving some examples of its steam > motive power, but not others. Was it that financially strapped in the > 1950's that not one J1, T1, or Q2 couldn't have been preserved? Their scrap [] > situation. I suspect it was something more than mere dollars and cents. I > realize the duplex locomotives were a disappointment for the PRR, if not an > embarrassment, but the J1 had a pretty impressive record. I know its all I don't know that I buy in to your theory, but if it were the case, remember that the J was not a PRR design, but rather, a borrowed one, so that would account for similar embarassment if what you say were the case. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Clay" Subject: [PRR] HO Layout For Sale Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:59:23 -0500 For Sale 16' x 13' HO scale layout Built from 1993 Model Railroader PRR Middle Divison Project Layout by Dave Frary All benchwork complete 95% of trackwork complete built in 6 sections for easy transport Shinohara code 83 track and switches No scenery For additional details please contact Jim Clay at jclay@paonline.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 18:31:42 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] SEPTA Regional RR Track Charts Howdy Steve: I checked my recent Railroad Paper Collectibles Catalog and did not see anything for SEPTA. You may want to contact Dave Cramer - the publisher - and see if he knows of any or can point you someplace trainsite@aol.com or trainsite@hotmail.com He lists a lot of paper stuff in the catalog $12.00 for 5 issues. cos wsbcos.com Steve L wrote: > Does anyone have Track Charts or Track Maps of the SEPTA Philadelphia, > Network > ---Track ,Switches,Interlockings,Platforms > > Thank you > Steve Lowenthal > > -------------------------------------------- > Mikie Lowenthal, the Cat > Tiger Lowenthal,the other Cat > Smokie Lowenthal,Tiger's Brother > > and > of course > > Chris D. Lowenthal--Esq.(My Son). > > ____________________________________ > Old Address > 59 New Ludlow Road #8B > Chicopee Mass 01020 > 413 533 0396 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:50:30 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] updates to "The Limited" Hello all, Just a quick note to say that I have just uploaded a substantially revised and enlarged topic on the PRR electrification. As always, I hope you will drop by to take a look and let me know if you see any additions or corrections that are needed. http://www.thoseclassictrains.com/LOCOdwgs10.html Also - yes, once again its Opinion Poll time. Please let me know your input. Every one's comments are helpful. T-t-t-t-thats's all, folks! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:10:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29 Mail Storage Cars Frank and All, Trucks nothing did you catch that roof? Is the assignment panel white as in the Middle Div. Decals (sorry Jerry! sore spot I know) or should it be yellow? Inquiring minds want to know. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:43:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report The license plate to which Dan refereed is an official Pennsylvania license plate. Why would someone be selling these plates in Springfield when they are only available legally from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation when you pay your registration fee? Seems like a commercial rip-off of the real thing. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:37:04 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > The license plate to which Dan refereed is an official Pennsylvania license > plate. Why would someone be selling these plates in Springfield when they are > only available legally from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation when > you pay your registration fee? Seems like a commercial rip-off of the real > thing. The state issues "sample" plates which aren't valid for use on a PA registered vehicle as a plate; You have to pay for them. Explain exactly how you think it is you're being taken? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:09:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Saved Locomotives Before I get completely "Flamed" let me add: Class "O" and "P" were, of course, Electrics and I should have added none were saved "BY THE RAILROAD" - a Class P-5 does exist - somehow - in St Louis. ALSO a Class I-1 was saved BY THE RAILROAD - but became seperated from the "Collection" through a series of circumstances Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:11:30 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report Rich, The "sample" to which I referred was to have been a legally available promotional version of the actual registration plate, hence the number "0000," as per the quote I attached from Dan Cupper in my previous post. I was curious about the apparent discrepancy in price: $20 vs $5, as well as whether the one I saw in W. Sp'fld was in fact the official "sample." plate. SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > The license plate to which Dan refereed is an official Pennsylvania license > plate. Why would someone be selling these plates in Springfield when they are > only available legally from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation when > you pay your registration fee? Seems like a commercial rip-off of the real > thing. > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:13:42 -0500 From: Frank Brua Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29 Mail Storage Cars To Ed and All: Yes, I did notice the radial roof on the pic in RMJ. The print reproduced in the Summer 1998 Keystone clearly states the assignment lettering is freight car red on a white background - at least in 1950. Perhaps the color changed at some point. I wasn't aware that a decal existed for this lettering. Thanks for the info. ELM2@aol.com wrote: > Frank and All, > Trucks nothing did you catch that roof? Is the > assignment panel white as in the Middle Div. Decals (sorry Jerry! sore spot I > know) or should it be yellow? Inquiring minds want to know. > Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:55:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives OK, I buy your explanation that the "J" was not a TRUE Pennsy engine - If steam had survived I suspect that they might have gotten the Belpaire fireboxes as Class n-2 did after WW 1. In addition to their lack of success I suspect that Classes "Q" and "T": were to modern to be considered for the "Historical" collection. BUT - no Class "C" "N" "O" "P" "S" or Articulateds were saved - how would you explain that? A more likely explanation was that the preservation effort was centered around Northumberland - and non were availible "nearby" - I have heard various rumours - unsubstantiated - that at least one Duplex, scheduled for "saving" derailed while being hauled east "Dead" - and that it was scrapped in place. Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:04:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] WESTSIDE MODELS??? From: Patrick M Egan The Westside aand earlier Balboa cars do have prototypes. They are not generic, but in fact an attempt at Great Northern cars. That this is not necessarily dead on is indicated by the Budd domes with smooth sides and roof. (Budd cars for the GN and some other roads had planked rather than fluted sides.) So you have a choice - put GN numbers and names on the cars, or use your imagination on Pennsy numbers and names. Pat Egan (no web access) On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:02:38 -0500 (EST) mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) writes: >Fellow PRR Modelers, > > I am suppose to put the finishing touches on a set of 5 PRR >Streamlined Pullman Passenger Cars made by West Side Models in the >early >1970's. They came factory painted with strips and the road name >applied. >My customer wants me to put the proper names and or numbers on these >cars. Problem is that I can not come up with any info to what cars >these >are suppose to be. All my drawings and photos I have doesn't match >these >cars. Does anyone know if these West Side models are for any prototype >Pennsy cars. If so, Can you let me know the names and or numbers I >can >apply to these. The set includes an 85' Baggage-mail-RPO?, 1 85' >Diner, >1 85' coach?, 1 85' duplex sleeper and one Bob-tailed Observation. I >believe these are all generic looking cars. Any body know for sure? >Gary > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:04:42 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > BUT - no Class "C" "N" "O" "P" "S" or Articulateds were saved - how would you > explain that? A more likely explanation was that the preservation effort was An uneducated guess: they were scrapped before the historical collection was even started. > centered around Northumberland - and non were availible "nearby" - I have > heard various rumours - unsubstantiated - that at least one Duplex, scheduled > for "saving" derailed while being hauled east "Dead" - and that it was > scrapped in place. That's equally likely... I have no great insight, I'm just guessing -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:21:27 EST Subject: [PRR] X-29 Mail Storage Cars In a message dated 2/3/99 12:42:55 PM Central Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << My question after all this background dialog: does anybody know how many cars were identified with these assigned routings and/or what timeframe they ran on the PRR? >> Don't have the answer and am glad you asked the question. However, I have another. Why did the PRR go to the trouble of so marking these cars? Why not just use one of the pool X29 REA cars as they more commonly did on other runs? Was there something special about these cars other than the marking? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:34:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR LOCO PRESERVATION Hello fellow PRR Guys, The following is what I have heard about the preservation of certain PRR LOCOS. Back in the mid-late 1950's the Pennsy did indeed have plans for saving the 3 engines mentioned in the original question that was posted here. A J1, Q2 and a T1 were all transported to Conway Yards outside of Pittsburgh for inclusion of the Nortumberland collection. They were all whitelined at the time. However, they were all then transported to Sharpsburg, Pa. We all know what happens to Locos' that arrive at that destination. Yes they were cut up. Either shipped to Sharpsburg by accident or on purpose it was a shame. I live in Beaver Falls, Pa.(near Conway Yards) and that has been the rumor floatng around this area for years. Is it true? I don't know. That is what I heard from several Historians in the Pittsburgh area. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:16:18 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] preserving steam Hi all, Here are the theories that I have regarding preservation of locomotives from the PRR. Locomotives in general were only preserved AFTER there was great interest in this. Many of the classes mentioned were retired early (such as the Duplexes) and as such there wasn't enough interest in preserving them. Of course, the I-1 worked up to the last days of steam, but these were not the sexy mainline greyhounds everyone thought about...the I-1 was responsible for the grey laundry on the line and the house rumbling on the foundation...and who wanted to preserve that? At the other end of the spectrum, we have the GG-1 which lasted into the 80's and consequenty numerous examples are preserved. Even with consciousness raised, only one E44 was saved. One final point, locomotives that retire "early", after short periods of service, do not generate the public consciousness that others might. This could explain the lack of BP20, BP-60(BF-50) as well. Finally, don't look for railroads to contribute too many second generation diesels to collections...the trade in on parts is often worth too much. Bottom line? The list of "lost classes" is a lot longer than the list of preserved locos. I personally mourn that of the PRR electrics, the DD-2, FF-2, R-1, O-1, P-5a modified, L-6 are all lost, but I celebrate that the DD-1, the prototype P-5, the lowly B-1, #4800 (old rivets) and numerous other GG-1s were saved. As has come up on this list before, and will come up again...There are two PRR locomotive in DESPERATE need of proper attention. The I-1, which belongs with the rest of the collection in Strasburg or at the museum in Altoona, and the P5 (#4700) which is rotting away in the back of a shed at the St. Louis museum. Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:00:48 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Stephen Bartlett wrote: > I DON'T think I am being taken. I merely was surprised to see the Not you, Rich.... > expected, souvenir, not-a-real-car-legal-automobile-registration plate > for sale in Massachusetts before I had seen any followup on the PRR list > re: the previous thread about the plate, as several people had been > keeping us up to date on its release. I had not seen any word of its > being available. Regarding the price of the souvenir plate, not the > real registration, and of course, assumptions may have been made > regarding the price, the early expectations were that it would be $5.00. Well, my reading of the quote you cited was $5 for the plate, plus the $15 for the museum.... Maybe not. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:32:26 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report I DON'T think I am being taken. I merely was surprised to see the expected, souvenir, not-a-real-car-legal-automobile-registration plate for sale in Massachusetts before I had seen any followup on the PRR list re: the previous thread about the plate, as several people had been keeping us up to date on its release. I had not seen any word of its being available. Regarding the price of the souvenir plate, not the real registration, and of course, assumptions may have been made regarding the price, the early expectations were that it would be $5.00. Quoting Dan Cupper's posting of December 23: "The plate costs $35, $15 of which is returned to the museum for programs, publications, etc. This fee is in addition to the regular registration fee. Several people reported that those manning the table said a sample plate with the number OOOO will be available (they're not yet stamped) for $5, for those who don't want to go the whole way with the plate, or for those who live out of state." Steve Bartlett Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > > The license plate to which Dan refereed is an official Pennsylvania license > > plate. Why would someone be selling these plates in Springfield when they are > > only available legally from the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation when > > you pay your registration fee? Seems like a commercial rip-off of the real > > thing. > > The state issues "sample" plates which aren't valid for use on a PA > registered vehicle as a plate; You have to pay for them. Explain exactly > how you think it is you're being taken? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:28:46 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > > BUT - no Class "C" "N" "O" "P" "S" or Articulateds were saved - how would you > > explain that? A more likely explanation was that the preservation effort was > > An uneducated guess: they were scrapped before the historical collection > was even started. Duh. Well, the Ps would be an obvious exception... the modifieds at least. So much for that theory:-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] Chicago Union Station operations Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:24:07 -0600 I am looking for some clarification on the PRR's Chicago Union Station operations. The Panhandle route from the Logansport Indiana Division terminated at the North Concourse of Chicago Union Station, but I thought only Milwaukee Road passenger trains used the North Concourse at CUS. Did passenger trains on the Panhandle Route get switched over to the Fort Wayne Route once they entered the Chicago Terminal Division, via either the South Chicago & Southern branch line or the Englewood Connecting Line, thus entering CUS on the South Concourse? If that was the case, then what was the point of the Panhandle terminating on the North Concourse in the first place? I reviewed the September 1982 issue of the Keystone, which deals with the Chicago Terminal Division, but it doesn't offer a satisfactory explanation to this question. Can anyone shed some light on this issue? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:13:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report Pennsylvania License plates are made of aluminium. The state just opened bidding to supply the aluminium for the next fiscal year. The cost of any "special" plate is the basic registration fee for the vehicle (this varries for the type of vehicle, e.g. passenger car, pickup under 5000lbs gvw, pickup over 5000 gvw all pay different fees) plus the fee authorized in the enabling legislation. Each special plate must be approved through an amendment to the motor vehicle code. The legislation specifies how the fees will be used and the amount. The PRR plate will be $20 -- $5 goes to the general fund to pay the cost of producing the special plate and $15 goes to the special fund established in the legislation. The additional fee is a one time charge for the life of the plate. The routing of the funds may be the source of the information which appears to be inconsistent. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:16:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives >> An uneducated guess: they were scrapped before the historical collection >> was even started. > >Duh. Well, the Ps would be an obvious exception... the modifieds at least. >So much for that theory:-) Believe it or not, the modifieds were scrapped before the boxcabs (in general) which in fact may explain the lack of preserved modifieds as they weren't the "last" P5s running. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:07:22 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] PRR license plate Greetings to Steve and the list ! With the recent string of posts regarding the Pennsylvania state PRR-theme "Preserving Pennsylvania's Heritage" Grif Teller license plates, I thought it would be good to nail down the particulars, which seemed to be floating in air ever since the plate's introduction last fall. Here's the scoop: 1. For in-state residents wanting an actual plate for their vehicle: Pick up a PennDOT Form MV-906 at a notary public, auto club, or tag service and submit it to PennDOT according to the directions on the form. The cost is $35 in addition to your $36 registration fee. PennDOT's official position is that plates are issued in numerical order and you "can't" request a special number. This is not strictly so, because at the unveiling ceremony, PennDOT had a table and was selling plates on the spot -- the numbers were 500-599 and you could pick from among those (a friend of mine took 523 to match his birthday, May 23). So if there were some special event like this, the rules appear to be relaxed a little. Also, PennDOT certainly wouldn't advertise this, but if you know or can visit the office of an elected official such as a legislator or a state senator, either of whom represents your voting district in the Legislature, that person or an aide may be willing to make the request for you, and perhaps you could obtain a number out of rotation. I don't recommend an abuse of this system, but legislators *are* elected to work for the people they represent, and this would not be an unreasonable request for a constituent to make. As my dad would say, "It never hurts to ask," and its corollary, "All they can say is no." They're not going to suspend your license for asking. 2. For in-state or out-of-state residents who want a souvenir or sample plate, which bears the number 0000, send a $5 check, payable to the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation, to this address: Pennsylvania Department of Transportation, Sample Tags Unit, First Floor, 1101 South Front St., Harrisburg, PA 17104, specifically requesting the "Preserving Pennsylvania's Heritage" railroad sample plate. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Matt. 6:33 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:47:59 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Hi gang, I spent some time on a few web sites and came up with the following, by no means complete, list of pending HO scale PRR brass locos (and some prices from Peach Creek Hobbies) 1) Rail Classics - E6 Atlantic, 5 versions - Price? 2) Challenger Imports - M1/M1a/M1b, 210F75 or 210F75B tender, 5 versions, plus alternate smoke box, hedlight/generator and pilot in each box - list $1500 ($1208 Peach Creek) 3) Precision - J1, 210F84 tender, unpainted or #6150,6174,6450,6474, diff version? #6401,6434,6475,6500 - Price? 4) Precision - HH1, 18000gal, 26 ton (N&W) tender, keystone # plate, #374-378 - list $2114 ($1702, Peach Creek) 5) Precision - FF2 ,(ex GN Y-1) unpainted PRR version, #1-7 - Price? Geeeez, at least 3 are on my "gotta have" list!!! Time to start saving the $$$$$ Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:32:31 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] loco modifications Hi all, Looking though the advertisement for Challenger Imports HO brass M1/M1a/M1b I came up with the following questions concerning the date of various modifications. I'm interested both as these apply to the M1 class, but to other classes as well. Some of these may be simultaneous, others may not... Drop coupler pilot (cast) 6-Et to 8-Et brake system markers moved from pilot to boiler Generator/headlamp switch positions Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:17:45 -0500 Bruce, You can add to your list Key's "Benchmark" Q2 in two versions. Probably about $2,100 this time around! Then there's Challenger Imports 1938 and 1940 20th Century Limiteds. Oops, wrong list. Back to Pennsy, Railworks DD-1 and E44 electrics are coming someday, also. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 4:01 PM Subject: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos >Hi gang, > >I spent some time on a few web sites and came up with the following, by no >means complete, list of pending HO scale PRR brass locos (and some prices >from Peach Creek Hobbies) > >1) Rail Classics - E6 Atlantic, 5 versions - Price? > >2) Challenger Imports - M1/M1a/M1b, 210F75 or 210F75B tender, 5 versions, >plus alternate smoke box, hedlight/generator and pilot in each box - list >$1500 ($1208 Peach Creek) > >3) Precision - J1, 210F84 tender, unpainted or #6150,6174,6450,6474, diff >version? #6401,6434,6475,6500 - Price? > >4) Precision - HH1, 18000gal, 26 ton (N&W) tender, keystone # plate, >#374-378 - list $2114 ($1702, Peach Creek) > >5) Precision - FF2 ,(ex GN Y-1) unpainted PRR version, #1-7 - Price? > >Geeeez, at least 3 are on my "gotta have" list!!! Time to start saving the >$$$$$ > >Happy Rails, >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] anyone familiar with Detroit? Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:50:46 -0500 (EST) Is anyone on this list very familiar with Detroit? I'd like to ask some questions. Thanks. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:59:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Union Station operations In a message dated 2/4/99 8:40:08 AM Central Standard Time, rbiegaj@csc.cps.k12.il.us writes: << I am looking for some clarification on the PRR's Chicago Union Station operations. >> Naturally I can't lay my hand on my Chicago Division employee timetable, but it would seem one clue would be if a train stopped at Englewood. If so, you could safely say that it didn't use the "Bernice cutoff" going in the North end of CUS. Note that page 21 of the Sept 1982 article shows a picture of Train 215 from the Logansport Division at Englewood. My impression was that all PRR passenger trains went South out of Englewood (Ihave pictures including Union arriving and Soutwind departing from South end). Reason for connection to N. end eludes me, except I assume some interchange with North Western and Milwaukee might have been on that line,but can't imagine going all the way into CUS. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Historic collection Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:05:16 -0800 I don't remember where I learned this and don't have the time to research it so please don't ask for sources. As I recall the collection started out as an effort to have a display for a major event i.e. worlds fair or the like. It later grew as older engines were sent to the collection. It was not originally kept in northumberland but did end up there for some time. The collection started long before the end of steam but was added to over the years. Indeed the collection started before WWII and it was an effort to keep the steel from being scrapped for the war effort. Saving pieces for a collection is always a financial decision in the cost of the piece its up keep and storage not to mention its shipping. It is probable that the management at the time of the scrapping of the "big" steam was not interested in preservation or possibly could not justify the cost. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:47:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Union Station operations In a message dated 2/4/99 8:22:24 PM Central Standard Time,I wrote : << My impression was that all PRR passenger trains went South out of Englewood >> I meant to say "went out of the South end of Chicago Union Station." Excuse the "senior moment". Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 22:11:59 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Gosh, with the way prices for brass are going these days, that older Japanese brass from the 60's and 70's looks more and more appealing! :) Ted "the frugal Scotsman" Andrews ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Author: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." at Internet Date: 2/4/99 5:04 PM Hi gang, I spent some time on a few web sites and came up with the following, by no means complete, list of pending HO scale PRR brass locos (and some prices from Peach Creek Hobbies) 1) Rail Classics - E6 Atlantic, 5 versions - Price? 2) Challenger Imports - M1/M1a/M1b, 210F75 or 210F75B tender, 5 versions, plus alternate smoke box, hedlight/generator and pilot in each box - list $1500 ($1208 Peach Creek) 3) Precision - J1, 210F84 tender, unpainted or #6150,6174,6450,6474, diff version? #6401,6434,6475,6500 - Price? 4) Precision - HH1, 18000gal, 26 ton (N&W) tender, keystone # plate, #374-378 - list $2114 ($1702, Peach Creek) 5) Precision - FF2 ,(ex GN Y-1) unpainted PRR version, #1-7 - Price? Geeeez, at least 3 are on my "gotta have" list!!! Time to start saving the $$$$$ Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:54:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Bob Boyd's Rail Classics (or close to that) Bob (or someone) , could you repost your website address. In one of the three crashes this year, I lost the address and inadvertently deleted the recent message. Offline response is probably appropriate. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:08:29 EST Subject: [PRR] "Lost" H40 and H41 PRR Covered Hoppers The search continues for the "lost" H40 and H41 GATC covered hoppers leased by PRR. Thanks to Rich Orr, Eric Neubauer, Ron Dugas, and Rich Burg who dug into their files and photos. We now know the following: Class Number Order Scheme Source H40 261444 1st SK2b PRR Color Guide 1 p63 (E.Roy Ward photo) H40 261447 1st SK2b Keystone 83-Dec p9 (photo by Rich Burg) H40 261449 1st SK2b Rich Burg collection H40 261455 1st SK2b Rick Tipton slide H40 261426 2nd SK2b/a PRR Color Guide 2 p71 (D.P. Holbrook photo) H40 (1962 diagram) 4th & 5th PK Middle Division (PRR Compendium p75) H40 260427 4th PK Rick Tipton slide H40 260428 4th PK Rick Tipton slide H40 260445 4th PK Rich Burg collection H40 260464 4th PK Rick Tipton slide H40 261337 5th PK Keystone 83-Dec P9 (Grant Lowry coll.) H40 261390 5th PK Rich Burg collection H40 261398 5th PK Rick Tipton slide H41 261003 1st SK2b PRR Color Guide 1 p63 (H.E Brouse photo) H41 261012 2nd SK2b/a Keystone 83-Dec P10 (Grant Lowry coll.) H41 (1962 diagram) none PK Middle Division (PRR Compendium p76) When I study the above pix, I see several interesting things: 1. So far as we can prove, the 1962 PK diagram for the H41 Dry Flo was never used on a real car (so with typical modelers' luck, it will appear in HO in this livery within the year). 2. There are two examples of a hybrid phase SK2b/a visible. In these, the number is in serif, whereas the PRR above it is in "plain gothic" (think futura style letters). It's probably significant that these examples were delivered in September and November 1961, after most SK2b painting had given way to PK. So far as we know, this hybrid is unique to GATC. 3. We still have only one picture of H40 order 2 and none of H40 order 3. It would be nice to find more pictures in these small orders: - H40 second order PRR 261426-261437 Nov 1961 (late for SK2b, only shot shows SK2b/a) - H40 third order PRR 261420-261425 Dec 1961 (later for SK2b) 4. We have only one picture of each order of H41: - H41 first order 261001-261006 April 1961 (SK2b as expected?) - H41 second order 261007-261016 Sept 1961 (late for SK2b, only shot shows SK2b/a) Again, thanks for all your help. Any additions will be enthusiastically welcomed. Otherwise, I'm going to be honest and say "I don't know, and I certainly can't prove…" Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ATSF01@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:55:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos In a message dated 2/5/99 1:08:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, ted.andrews@woolpert.com writes: << Gosh, with the way prices for brass are going these days, that older Japanese brass from the 60's and 70's looks more and more appealing! :) Ted "the frugal Scotsman" Andrews >> Hi Ted The major trade off is Quality. After seeing the Quality Difference between an Older PFM or even Westside model and The New Challenger or W&R models. I think the price difference is worth the extra working hours necessary to obtain the great detail. Say, do you know where I can find one of the Challenger Imports PRR 2-8-0's. Actually would like two. I cannot seem to find them on a brass list anywhere. Thanks Ken Patterson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:09:04 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: Bob Boyd's Rail Classics (or close to that) >Bob (or someone) , could you repost your website address. In one of the three >crashes this year, I lost the address and inadvertently deleted the recent >message. Offline response is probably appropriate. > > >Bob Zoeller ===== Well, gee, Bob, You can hardly expect me to pass up a chance to promo "The Limited", can you? I'm not sure if "Rail Classics" is merited just yet, tho' I keep working on it. Some time soon, one hopes. ;-) http://www.thoseclassictrains.com That's show business! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:26:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Bob Boyd's Rail Classics (or close to that) In a message dated 2/5/99 5:24:49 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Confusion reigns, here >> And it was all mine, which is why I couldn't find the site using search engines. Thanks for giving me the address. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:14:31 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Historic collection From: locoshop@juno.com Rich, Actually I believe I had seen this in a issue of I believe Rail Classics magazine about 2 or so years ago. It was a 6-8 page write up and I do remember reading that in there. I have long since gotten rid of that issue though, anyone dare to find the date? On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:10:34 EST PRRMAN@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 99-02-04 21:11:13 EST, gas@fastinet.net writes: >An article in either the Keystone or High Line a few years ago >mentioned a local management type who had been ordered by >the upper brass to scrap the whole collection, but, by juggling >the records and telling different stories to different people, >managed to avoid ever having to follow through on these orders. >Does anyone else recall seeing this? > >Rich Copeland Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Bob Boyd's Rail Classics (or close to that) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 99 06:13:23 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/4/99 9:54 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Bob (or someone) , could you repost your website address. In one of the three >crashes this year, I lost the address and inadvertently deleted the recent >message. Offline response is probably appropriate. Confusion reigns, here... Bob Boyd's company is Those Classic Trains at http://www.thoseclassictrains.com Rail Classics, the company doing brass, is at http://www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:10:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Historic collection In a message dated 99-02-04 21:11:13 EST, gas@fastinet.net writes: << It is probable that the management at the time of the scrapping of the "big" steam was not interested in preservation or possibly could not justify the cost. >> An article in either the Keystone or High Line a few years ago mentioned a local management type who had been ordered by the upper brass to scrap the whole collection, but, by juggling the records and telling different stories to different people, managed to avoid ever having to follow through on these orders. Does anyone else recall seeing this? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:12:29 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos >Bruce, > You can add to your list Key's "Benchmark" Q2 in two versions. >Probably about $2,100 this time around! Then there's Challenger Imports 1938 >and 1940 20th Century Limiteds. Oops, wrong list. > Back to Pennsy, Railworks DD-1 and E44 electrics are coming someday, >also. >Jerry Breon Key Imports PRR Q-2 4-4-6-4 Duplex as built 1944, f/p & lettered #6131 TBA TBA PRR Q-2 4-4-6-4 Duplex, f/p & lettered #6175-6199 1945 run TBA TBA Given the list price of the Key T-1s two years ago ($2100), I would expect a list price on the order of $2500. I will ask around As for Railworks...their visibility seems to have decrease dramatically...any idea if that is real or just my perception? Finally, with respect to new PRR electrics, Rail Classics have a P5 release planned. Personally, I hope the E-6 is a great success and the P5 follows hot on its tail. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:30:39 EST Subject: [PRR] ooops ! Sorry.. **That last message was not meant to jam / spam the PRR_Talk....mea culpa..Bill* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:28:38 EST Subject: [PRR] address change for Bill..... ***Hi, all- The local cable company has finally gotten their act together, and offers Instant Access Service, which does makes AOL downloading look like reading a book slowly ! I am going to try it, so my domain address is changed as shown to: prrsignals@adelphia.net It is nice, hope it works. People in our neighborhood report "works pretty much okay".....Except for some recent vandalism, including over 150 fiber optic cable cuts, right around labor contract negotiations.......coincidence ?? Oh !!! Those that have boxes of my video tapes, please check in with me so: #1. I have a clue of what is out there....and where.... #2. I can re-direct shipments for those who want to see them.... #3. anyone wishing can request a box to view !! Different 'themes' per box, such as...PRR,, More PRR, more PRR, Garden RR's, Other RR's, PRR, New England RR's, PRR, variety, etc. These are on a free loan basis, as they were just gathering dust on my shelves. I only ask for care, Nice packing and insured shipping just in case. Thanks, Bill******* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] the last word in paint and color mix(not) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:18:56 -0500 Hey Railfans: I have been trying to get this note out for days..(Microsoft update bit me)... I found a web site with a book and computer software($11.95).. That claims to have the major RR orginail paint formulas and the current mix using hobby paints to replicate them... The site is www.alpinesoft.com Hope this helps some.... He has a few RR packages, the one we are talking about is the Paint package under products... tdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:17:36 EST Subject: Re:[PRR] the last word in paint and color mix(not) Tom & List, Links listed below will take you to a gents page that contains paint mixes for a whole bunch of railroads. This guy obviously spent a lot of time coming up with a multitude of formulas. I can't personally vouch for the correctness of any of them. However, it will provide a basis from which one could experiment. These listing are based primarily upon the old RR colors by Floquil. I don't know how close Polly-Scale is to matching the older RR colors, but it's probably in the ballpark. You'll find PRR colors in the third file listed. Regards, George http://www.fileshop.com/personal/jashaw/rrdata/floqu1.txt http://www.fileshop.com/personal/jashaw/rrdata/floqu2.txt http://www.fileshop.com/personal/jashaw/rrdata/floqu3.txt http://www.fileshop.com/personal/jashaw/rrdata/floqu4.txt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:55:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Historic collection Yes, I recall the story - Penn Central Bankruptcy officials wanted the collection sold or scrapped to "maximize" return to creditors - At the 11th hour the State of Pennsylvania was able to arrange a "swap" - the "collection" for a bunch of unpaid taxes - that the Railroad couldn't have paid then anyway. The "collection" then had to be removed from Penn Central property - and (I believe) the Northumberland Roundhouse - where much of the collection had been stored indoors - was torn down. Several Pennsylvania towns competed for it - but Strasburg won - primarily because of the Strasburg RR and at least two or perhaps three trains of locomotives headed there Unfortunately, it was quite some time before the Museum was built - and most of the collection - which HAD been in fairly good shape when it was transported deteriorated outdoors for some time - damage which is only now being fixed AND, of course, even with the new addition - a significant portion of the "collection" must still sit outside. Also, of note, and this has been said before - although the PRR Collection is the core of the Strasburg museum It is THE RAILROAD MUSEUM OF PENNSYLVANIA and not the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum - Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Looking for A/c ducts and door gates. From: Fred G Rea Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:26:09 EST Not as lofty a search as brass loco's but I am looking for two things in HO: 1- A/C roof ducts for AHM/Rivarossi 12-1 Pullmans. I have a set from New England Rail Service. They are no longer in the Walthers catalog and the phone for NERS is disconnected. Are they, or a reasonable substitute, available? 2- Gates for the openings in the ends of Bachman varnish. Once you replace the Bachman diaphragms with working models there is a void where there ought to be a gate. Used to be made by Walthers but can no longer locate any. They would be a wonderful product in photo etched brass. Any ideas? Thanks Fred Rea PRRH&TS NMRA ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:05:35 -0500 Re: Challenger Imports PRR 2-8-0's. This project originally started life as an announcement for a Precision Scale project, I believe. They were to do a very high quality (read pricey) very limited run of these locomotives in several versions. Shortly thereafter, Challenger advertised their own PRR 2-8-0 project and it was dropped from PSC's listings. Challenger has always imported what they have advertised in a timely fashion, but for some reason this project was dropped from their future projects list about a year or so ago as well. I don't have any insider information, but fully expect Challenger to eventually offer very nice models of this prototype. There are a lot of brass Pennsy consolidations out there to choose from so we can make do for now, I suppose. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: ATSF01@aol.com To: ted.andrews@woolpert.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 4:30 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos >In a message dated 2/5/99 1:08:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, >ted.andrews@woolpert.com writes: > ><< Gosh, with the way prices for brass are going these days, that older > Japanese brass from the 60's and 70's looks more and more appealing! :) > > Ted "the frugal Scotsman" Andrews >> > >Hi Ted > >The major trade off is Quality. After seeing the Quality Difference between >an Older PFM or even Westside model and The New Challenger or W&R models. I >think the price difference is worth the extra working hours necessary to >obtain the great detail. > >Say, do you know where I can find one of the Challenger Imports PRR 2-8-0's. >Actually would like two. I cannot seem to find them on a brass list anywhere. > >Thanks >Ken Patterson > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ATSF01@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:36:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Thank you George. I actually had Phil Sheahan looking for one (2-8-0) at the shows on the East coast this past weekend. I will let him know it was just a useless hunt. Also will call Al at Challenger today to get the scoop. He already assured me in the past that the M1s will be done. Is this a great time to model Pennsey or what? Ken Patterson St. Louis MO. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: [PRR] FS: PRR HO brass P5a Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:59:35 -0500 Alco Model PRR P5a boxcab. TRO in original box and foam $285 plus shipping. If interested email wgripp@ncsus.jnj.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:25:36 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for A/c ducts and door gates. NERS is still alive and kicking. I spoke with Don Valentine at his booth in Springfield last weekend. His address is New England Rail Service, Newbury, VT 05051. You might suggest the gates to him. I just checked Bethlehem's website. They don't make them either. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Fred G Rea wrote: > > Not as lofty a search as brass loco's but I am looking for two things in > HO: > > 1- A/C roof ducts for AHM/Rivarossi 12-1 Pullmans. > > I have a set from New England Rail Service. They are no longer in the > Walthers catalog and the phone for NERS is disconnected. Are they, or a > reasonable substitute, available? > > 2- Gates for the openings in the ends of Bachman varnish. > > Once you replace the Bachman diaphragms with working models there is a > void where there ought to be a gate. Used to be made by Walthers but can > no longer locate any. They would be a wonderful product in photo etched > brass. Any ideas? > > Thanks > > Fred Rea > PRRH&TS > NMRA > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for A/c ducts and door gates. Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:50:15 -0500 We still have the New England Rail Service duct kits in stock. Check the NERS listing on our web page for items currently in stock. Detail Associates offers an end gate kit for a passenger car in plastic. I believe that Cal-Scale also offers one in brass. I hope this helps. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Avoiding Scrapping Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:22:36 -0800 I believe the article about a PRR man preventing scrapping is the one of the engines is about the E 7 at the museum. This engine was to be scrapped so the PRR manager put its number on another engine and had that engine scrapped and put a new number on the E 7. So she was saved from the torch. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:03:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for A/c ducts and door gates. Fred & folks, I hope this isn't as bad as it sounds. Those A/C ducts are one of my favorite products. Now I know business was as usual a couple months ago because I got the NERS catalog sheets right around Christmas. And there was a discussion about how Walthers was dropping many smaller, specialized manurfacturers from their catalog, so thaeir absense there might not mean much. But just to play it safe I'm running to the hobby shop first thing in the morning to pick up a few more sets of those ducts. Does anyone have the scoop on this, or have you tried the passenger car list yet? This is gonna give me nightmares just thinking about it. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:40:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Union Station operations From: Patrick M Egan The Panhandle trains went over the SC&S to the Fort Wayne, and then into Englewood and the South end of CUS, but not originally. I don't ever recall hearing about the Englewood Connecting Line used for a passenger connection, and it would certainly be a lot longer and slower than over the SC&S. The Panhandle dates way back, and at one time was fairly independent of the Fort Wayne. Further, while the passenger trains went on to CUSCo property after passing through the Milwaukee A2 (aka Western Avenue) plant, and thence to the station, there was a Panhandle freight line that ran along the CUSCo. mains to serve industries and a couple of yards east of Western Avenue. The names Loomis Avenue and Morgan Street come to mind as yard names, but I could be mistaken. This freight line is why various records indicate the Panhandle had track east of A2. Passenger trains didn't use it. As to when the change over occurred, good question. It could have been as early as the 1800's. Pat Egan (no web access) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:44:42 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: Avoiding Scrapping -- PC E7 4201 (ex-PRR 5901) Greg Stone wrote: > > I believe the article about a PRR man preventing scrapping is the one of the > engines is about the E 7 at the museum. This engine was to be scrapped so > the PRR manager put its number on another engine and had that engine > scrapped and put a new number on the E 7. So she was saved from the torch. > Greg > Greetings to Greg and the list! Correct, this was Lou Miller, enginehouse foreman at Harrisburg. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:20:11 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I must say that these are pricey little things. Hope you all really like these. Do these engines get run or sit in a display case? Give me 2 M1s and I would have to give you all the family car and some cash to boot!!! ;^) Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:08:04 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: "Lost" H40 and H41 PRR Covered Hoppers In a message dated 2/5/99 7:52:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST writes: > Rick, > > While prepping s bunch of RMCs for sale I came across "Kitbashing a Pennsy > H40 covered hopper" in the June 1985 RMC. On page 63 are shots of four PRR > H40s, > 261446 SK > 260428 PK > 261426 SK > 161395 PK > Thanks, Tom Found the Bobb Losse article you've referenced in RMC July 1985. Notice these four pix by George Losse on p.63 reinforce what I was saying about railfan behavior vis a' vis the H40: 1. The pic of 261446 is new to me, and is from the first order (adds to 261444, 261447, 261449,261455). All 5 are SK2b paint. 2. 261431? (I'm really not sure of the number from the magazine picture) is identified as a car from the second order, and appears to have serif numbers, so it tends to confirm SK2b/a, like 261426, the only other picture we have from this order. 3. There are still no pictures of the "lost" third order. 4. Fourth order involved a lettering phase change, and sure enough there's a shot, of 260428. It turns out I bagged the same car two years before, in November 1979. All 5 known cars are PK. 5. Fifth order got those nifty sheetmetal gussets, looked like something different, therefore was shot. 261395 is a new car, as is the color photo of 261371 (credited to Rail Data Services). These add to 261377, 261390, 261398 previously known. All five are PK, of course. This RMC article is on kitbashing the Eastern Car Works Airslide into the post-1965 version. Walthers offers or has offered both versions (lettered for PRR, too), so the kitbash isn't necessary now. But that leaves us with the question, "who is Bobb Losse"? "Who is George Losse"? Still modeling? Still photographing? Gee - are we having fun yet? Rick Tipton "Examining photos to exhaustion" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:08:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] preserving steam From: Patrick M Egan I think if you want the P5a and the I1 at Strasburg, you'd better find something to swap for them. More equipment moves between museums because of swaps than any other way. And in both cases, it had better be something they'd like more than what they've got. Pat Egan (no web access) On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:16:18 -0600 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." writes: >Hi all, > >Here are the theories that I have regarding preservation of >locomotives >from the PRR. Locomotives in general were only preserved AFTER there >was >great interest in this. Many of the classes mentioned were retired >early >(such as the Duplexes) and as such there wasn't enough interest in >preserving them. Of course, the I-1 worked up to the last days of >steam, >but these were not the sexy mainline greyhounds everyone thought >about...the I-1 was responsible for the grey laundry on the line and >the >house rumbling on the foundation...and who wanted to preserve that? >At the >other end of the spectrum, we have the GG-1 which lasted into the 80's >and >consequenty numerous examples are preserved. Even with consciousness >raised, only one E44 was saved. One final point, locomotives that >retire >"early", after short periods of service, do not generate the public >consciousness that others might. This could explain the lack of BP20, >BP-60(BF-50) as well. Finally, don't look for railroads to contribute >too >many second generation diesels to collections...the trade in on parts >is >often worth too much. > >Bottom line? The list of "lost classes" is a lot longer than the list >of >preserved locos. I personally mourn that of the PRR electrics, the >DD-2, >FF-2, R-1, O-1, P-5a modified, L-6 are all lost, but I celebrate that >the >DD-1, the prototype P-5, the lowly B-1, #4800 (old rivets) and >numerous >other GG-1s were saved. As has come up on this list before, and will >come >up again...There are two PRR locomotive in DESPERATE need of proper >attention. The I-1, which belongs with the rest of the collection in >Strasburg or at the museum in Altoona, and the P5 (#4700) which is >rotting >away in the back of a shed at the St. Louis museum. > >Happy Rails, >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave >Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:38:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 From: Patrick M Egan I recall it was in the mid 1950's in either Trains or Railroad magazine that the Pennsy moved sand domes on a few K4's to try to make one stop servicing at some locations. It can only be presumed that this particular efficiency was not as effective as dieselization, and given up. Pat Egan (no web access) On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:15:14 -0600 steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) writes: >George--7133 is definitely a K4. See Pennsy Steam Years Vol 2, pp. >23 and >35, but I can't tell you why or when the sand dome and bell positions >were >reversed. > >Steve Hoxie >Pensacola FL > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eichhorn@aol.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:10 PM >Subject: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 > > >>Hi Gang, >> >>Can someone identify PRR Steam # 7133. Two photos that I have by Al >Staufer >>both indicate that 7133 is a K4. However, if it is, it is the first >K4 >that I >>have ever seen with the positions of the bell and sand dome reversed >(as >they >>are on the K3). Any other particulars anyone might possess on this >engine >>would greatly appreciated. >> >>Thanks, >> >>George > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 01:32:57 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: P5 at St. Louis museum >>As has come up on this list before, and will come >>up again...There are two PRR locomotive in DESPERATE need of proper >>attention. The I-1, which belongs with the rest of the collection in >>Strasburg or at the museum in Altoona, and the P5 (#4700) which is >>rotting away in the back of a shed at the St. Louis museum. >> >>Happy Rails, >>Bruce ===== Actually, it is in half-way decent shape, considering how long it sat there. I looked at it last summer and it seemed sound (what I could see- didn't get a look at the roof). The P5 is considered their albatross. They shoved it back in the corner because they are afraid to move it. They had several derailments while shuffling locos over the years (the old museum trackage was pretty flimsy). To the best of my knowledge, they have no plans to exhibit the P5, and they have more than enough on their hands trying to restore the stuff they do want. Where it is now, I had to climb over a fence, scuttle along the side of the hill and squeeze between two pieces of equipment to get to it. I know they are notorious for hordeing stuff, but it is possible they might be willing to get rid of this one specific item, seeing as they have a GG-1 now. Of course, you'd have to offer them a serious goodie! Regards to all, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:39:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Lost" H40 and H41 PRR Covered Hoppers Actually Bobb and George are fine and still modeling. George is in O scale now. And when Bobb has the time he still dabbles in HO freight cars. Bobb has done two books on Reading equiptment and was considering doing something with the PRR. I'll talk with him and let you know what he's up to. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 05:19:23 -0500 Hello; To add some info on #7133. This was one of the 15 Lines West K-4s built in 1919. Some other examples of Lines West K-4s with the dome reversal are 8161, 8195, 8236, 8261, 8278, 8309, 8378. You will also note that the cab is different in the area where it attaches to the running board. They also were built with Lines West tenders some of which were modified later on. Other engines were re-equipped with standard 110P75a. EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Patrick M Egan Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 9:39 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 I recall it was in the mid 1950's in either Trains or Railroad magazine that the Pennsy moved sand domes on a few K4's to try to make one stop servicing at some locations. It can only be presumed that this particular efficiency was not as effective as dieselization, and given up. Pat Egan (no web access) On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:15:14 -0600 steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) writes: >George--7133 is definitely a K4. See Pennsy Steam Years Vol 2, pp. >23 and >35, but I can't tell you why or when the sand dome and bell positions >were >reversed. > >Steve Hoxie >Pensacola FL > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eichhorn@aol.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:10 PM >Subject: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 > > >>Hi Gang, >> >>Can someone identify PRR Steam # 7133. Two photos that I have by Al >Staufer >>both indicate that 7133 is a K4. However, if it is, it is the first >K4 >that I >>have ever seen with the positions of the bell and sand dome reversed >(as >they >>are on the K3). Any other particulars anyone might possess on this >engine >>would greatly appreciated. >> >>Thanks, >> >>George > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:02:41 -0500 Hi Jeremy, Yes, they are pricey and yes, I run mine all the time. Guess its all relative. We're all sitting in front of computers which are also pricey, and surely not a necessity of life..... yet. I certainly don't intend any dis-respect by these comments, just my thoughts. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: locoshop@juno.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 12:25 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos >Hello all, > >I must say that these are pricey little things. Hope you all really like >these. Do these engines get run or sit in a display case? Give me 2 M1s >and I would have to give you all the family car and some cash to boot!!! > ;^) > >Jeremy Helms >Omaha, Nebraska >locoshop@juno.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:39:01 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P5 at St. Louis museum --------------8F029D5037AE850E765791BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be willing to give the NKP Berk for the P5 - they are both in same shape and maybe some Lima Super Power would fit in better out in Chicago. cos Robert A. Boyd wrote: > >>As has come up on this list before, and will come > >>up again...There are two PRR locomotive in DESPERATE need of proper > >>attention. The I-1, which belongs with the rest of the collection in > >>Strasburg or at the museum in Altoona, and the P5 (#4700) which is > >>rotting away in the back of a shed at the St. Louis museum. > >> > >>Happy Rails, > >>Bruce > > ===== > > Actually, it is in half-way decent shape, considering how long it sat > there. I looked at it last summer and it seemed sound (what I could see- > didn't get a look at the roof). > > The P5 is considered their albatross. They shoved it back in the corner > because they are afraid to move it. They had several derailments while > shuffling locos over the years (the old museum trackage was pretty flimsy). > > To the best of my knowledge, they have no plans to exhibit the P5, and they > have more than enough on their hands trying to restore the stuff they do > want. Where it is now, I had to climb over a fence, scuttle along the > side of the hill and squeeze between two pieces of equipment to get to it. > > I know they are notorious for hordeing stuff, but it is possible they might > be willing to get rid of this one specific item, seeing as they have a GG-1 > now. Of course, you'd have to offer them a serious goodie! > > Regards to all, > > Bob > > Robert A. Boyd > > ======== > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > > "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > ======== > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------8F029D5037AE850E765791BF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be willing to give the NKP Berk for the P5 - they are both in same shape and maybe some Lima Super Power would fit in better out in Chicago.

cos

Robert A. Boyd wrote:

>>As has come up on this list before, and will come
>>up again...There are two PRR locomotive in DESPERATE need of proper
>>attention.  The I-1, which belongs with the rest of the collection in
>>Strasburg or at the museum in Altoona, and the P5 (#4700) which is
>>rotting away in the back of a shed at the St. Louis museum.
>>
>>Happy Rails,
>>Bruce

=====

Actually, it is in half-way decent shape, considering how long it sat
there.   I looked at it last summer and it seemed sound (what I could see-
didn't get a look at the roof).

The P5 is considered their albatross.   They shoved it back in the corner
because they are afraid to move it.   They had several derailments while
shuffling locos over the years (the old museum trackage was pretty flimsy).

To the best of my knowledge, they have no plans to exhibit the P5, and they
have more than enough on their hands trying to restore the stuff they do
want.   Where it is now, I had to climb over a fence, scuttle along the
side of the hill and squeeze between two pieces of equipment to get to it.

I know they are notorious for hordeing stuff, but it is possible they might
be willing to get rid of this one specific item, seeing as they have a GG-1
now.   Of course, you'd have to offer them a serious goodie!

Regards to all,

Bob

Robert A. Boyd

========
Those Classic Trains
"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking"

"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service
http://www.thoseclassictrains.com
========

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  --------------8F029D5037AE850E765791BF-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] RE: trading museum pieces Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:39:49 -0800 I was talking to the museum curator of the PRR museum about getting the H21 and an X 29 boxcar. We got around to discussing the I1sa about a potential trade. He said they were working on trading the NKP berkshire for it. The museum was willing to trade and pay transportation cost both ways. I got the impression it was going to happen but that was over a year and half ago! One problem the museum is suppose to have now is rail transportation. One of the last aquisitions had a smoking box and a fire and had to be set off. These type of delays can be costly to AMTRAK or whoever has a track delay. I have heard they refuse to move any friction bearing cars across their tracks to the museum now. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:08:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] PRR H41 Question In a message dated 2/6/99 1:35:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, mtevans@jps.net writes: > Rick Tipton said: > > >>So far as we can prove, the 1962 PK diagram for the H41 Dry Flo was never > used on a real car (so with typical modelers' luck, it will appear in HO in > this livery within the year).<< > > Rick, I'm almost afraid to ask, but I will anyway. What model will be used > to represent the H41? Nothing is currently made that is even close to a GATC > Dry Flo. Or is the product that you are referring to a decal set? > Mark, None, unfortunately -- I'm in the middle of a prototype information article. I thought it was interesting that the PRR had lettering drawings ready for cars that were never ordered. This was one of my poor attempts at humor. On the freight car list, we're always talking about the mass market bringing us a) nonprototypical markings on b) cars that never existed Perhaps someone has scoped out how hard it would be to kitbash a Dry Flo from the Eastern Car Works Airslide, or from either of the two Walthers variants. I'm assuming the toughest part of the project would be the Dry Flo hopper bottoms and outlets. Truthfully, I can't even remember seeing this car in brass. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:14:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos Jeremy, Amen to those remarks! The brass importers, many of them, priced themselves out of the market, and those still bringing in brass have it priced out to a very narrow segment of the modeling population. This is a double whammy to us more frugal/cheap/financially-challenged folks, because the shrinking base of brass buyers has caused prices to stagnate somewhat on our existing collections as well. I've picked up a few odd pieces for less than I'da paid years ago, so I guess there is an up side as well. But I'm not in the market for $1500 pacifics and $400 10-6's, or even thousand dollar coaling towers. For the price of an inported I1 I'd rather buy a Bowser kit, ten IHC Pullmans and all the necesary parts from NERS, 75 pairs of Kadees, wheelsets for 50 cars, four or five tapes, a couple complete sets of withers Pennsy books and four or five Morning Sun books and maybe five or six red Caboose X29's. Then I'd take the $800 left over and put it the girls' education IRA's. But then again, I've always had strange priorities. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:15:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [FC] PRR H41 Question In a message dated 2/6/99 11:02:34 AM Central Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << On the freight car list, we're always talking about the mass market bringing us a) nonprototypical markings on b) cars that never existed >> Hate to beat a dead horse, but passenger cars are no different and the problem is not confined to cars that never existed: some are just mislabeled. I can't believe Bachmann picked a Pennsy business car as their generic observation and (the model escapes me now) I understand there is one lightweight kitchen-dormitory car masquerading as a diner in one manufacturer's line. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:24:59 EST Subject: [PRR] PITTSBURGH & VINTAGE RAILS Folks, For those of us who appreciate the gread industrial and railraod tradtion, you really should get a copy of march/April Vintage Rails mag. there's a great article with wonderful photos of 40's/50's Pittsburgh, including one of the actual Fort Wayne depot on the North side with a couple of Pennsy freights passing on the curve at one end.Also steel mill photos and other urban gems. Check it out. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] loco modifications Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:33:41 -0600 Bruce--You ask good questions. I know someone out there has all this info, but it hasn't shown up on the List yet. The only info I have has been gleaned from published photos. Let me give it a try. >Drop coupler pilot (cast)--(actually fabricated from sheet steel) This first showed up on the J1 as built. It appears other classes began to get them about the time WWII ended or early 1946. >6-Et to 8-Et brake system--Have no idea. Could anyone tell the difference on an HO model? >markers moved from pilot to boiler--I seem to remember a question about these lights in the Keystone's Information Exchange, but I can't recall which issue. As I recall, lights on the pilot were "marker lights" and installed on both freight and passenger engines. Lights on the smokebox were "classification" lights and found only on passenger engines. Apparently with the J1 that all changed, with small lights with an oval lens mounted on the smokebox and none on the pilot. In about 1950 these small lights were redesigned with a circular lens. >Generator/headlamp switch positions--I believe this swap started in 1946 or 47. It is interesting to note that when this change was incorporated, the newer, smaller headlight was not always used. Challenger seems to be marketing some of the more common M1/M1a configurations, but I think 6788 as shown in the March 99 MR is unique: older headlight on top of smokebox, newer class lights, and footboards. I would love to learn when that photo was taken. Two interesting ones that they are not doing: 1. In the rush to modify front ends several M's got the new raised work platform on the smokebox front and still retained the platform on the top of the pilot air tank. 2. 6861 was used in passenger service with a 130P75 tender, then given a 210F75A (or B) for Middle Division freight service; it retained the bar pilot thoughout. So much for "standardization." Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:42:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Question about G28 Gondolas Diagrams of the G28, including the ones posted on Rob Schoenberg's website at http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/ and the original blueprint one in my collection show a steel sided car with vertical ribs. I have yet to find a picture of a G28 that matches these diagrams. Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 70, and the 1943 Car Builders Cyclopedia from which it was reprinted, show a car identified as a G28 that is a composite sided "war emergency" car. The pictures show a car with diagonal structural members as well as vertical ribs. You can plainly read "G28" on the car. It is possible, though, that one of the ribs is hiding a subclass indicator next to the "G28", i.e. "G28A or G28B". Was the G28 built as a steel car, with subclasses being the composite cars? Can anyone direct me to a published photo of a G28? Thanks for your help. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 09:31:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Preserving steam locomotives Dick Ross writes: << I have heard various rumors - unsubstantiated - that at least one Duplex, scheduled for "saving" derailed while being hauled east "Dead" - and that it was scrapped in place. Dick Ross >> I was going to stay out of this debate about which engine got saved and which did not. Look at it logically, the P Co. had every opportunity to place the fireboxes on the J-1 and J-1a's but why? They were the most successful Pennsy engine built to date and needed no Belpaire, simple fact. The scrapping story is close. My father had a cousin John Martin who operated out of Conway, he was the engineer that push the S-1 into the scrappers yard until the rail rolled over. At that point John put on an idler car while the scrapper cut the bottom of the wheels FLAT. John shoved her in on the ties and she rolled over on her side and they scrapped her in place. That is how the story was told to myself and my brother by John Martin, if we are talking about the same duplex. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:03:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos(reply) Jeremy, Jerry and all, jbreon@email.msn.com writes: << Hi Jeremy, Yes, they are pricey and yes, I run mine all the time. Guess its all relative. We're all sitting in front of computers which are also pricey, and surely not a necessity of life..... yet. I certainly don't intend any disrespect by these comments, just my thoughts. Jerry Breon >> The computer I am siting at cost less now and gives me more advantages than the last one or the one before that. The Brass importers believe there is no top to the market, and buyer continue to pay these ridiculous price, making the market completely distorted. If the importers would consider taking their projects and related cost to China and have them reproduced in plastic and well detailed like Bachmann has their market share would go up their return on investment would go up and our pockets would still have some lining left. But alas they are so short sighted! A good example, I bought a PFM I-1 to go with my PFM L-1 I got when I graduated High School in 73 (98 bucks thank you). I paid $350.00 in August of last year and buy Christmas there was another for 5 HUNDIES and it sold. I laughed my ... off, ridiculous, but I suppose it has something to do with the RAILWORKS at nearly ONE THOUSAND Dollars ... a crime and the Caboose can't move them! I can still buy right now a Sunset I-1sa , either tender for less than 4 HUNDIES. Why pay more? Quality, detail, 4 to 5 Hundred dollars will buy as many brass parts as I would ever add! But, if we are fool enough to buy them at these levels then we deserve what we get!!!! Anybody want to form a Joint Venture? If they can get $1,000.00 to $2,000.00 for a brass PRR locomotive I guess we could go to China and have a better one made for $150.00 or less and with the new belt drive system it would run BETTER! And then we can start eating at their profits and special projects like the R-50b, do you think a slice of that action by the guy making LL P2K quality plastic freight cars would put a major hurt on the BRASS guys market, I do and I think it should. The time has come to take the market back! Oh by the way anybody produced a K-4 since Bachmann made theirs? And do you think they will now that Bachmann has improved it? Greg Martin Heads down, stay in your fox holes boys! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:30:27 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: trading museum pieces This bit of information is very interesting. When I visited 4483 in Hamburg last summer, I visited at length with the owner of the model train shop that now occupies the station behind which the I-1 sits. He is a member of the local NHRS, and told me that group was willing to trade for 4483, but they wanted something that had operated in their area. I got the impression they would insist on that point. He gave no indication that there had been any fruitful negotiations with anyone. I hope they work something out before someone steals the other builder's plate. We got around to discussing the I1sa about a potential > trade. He said they were working on trading the NKP berkshire for it. The > museum was willing to trade and pay transportation cost both ways. I got the > impression it was going to happen but that was over a year and half ago! > One problem the museum is suppose to have now is rail transportation. > One of the last aquisitions had a smoking box and a fire and had to be set > off. These type of delays can be costly to AMTRAK or whoever has a track > delay. I have heard they refuse to move any friction bearing cars across > their tracks to the museum now. > Greg Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Re: Brass Models Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:13:45 -0800 I often hear people complain about price of models whether it be brass or lionel trains etc. The bottom line is a market is driven by supply and demand. As long as people are willing to pay these prices the importers will import them. The second truth is that the Korean economy is improving and therefore workers are demanding more from their employers. The employers pay more and therefore charge more for their product. While this may be obvious to most people, they often don't want to face these simple facts. If it cost too much in your opinion then don't buy it! Getting mad at those people who are willing to pay "high prices" is just sour grapes. I am not able to buy some items that I consider high priced. The fact that others can and do pay these prices doesn't bother me. I went through this with Lionel trains. I was collecting a few styles of cars and thought I completed these collections when along came a car I was not aware of that cost quite a bit because of its rarity. Reluctantly I paid the price to complete my collection. Then along came another rare piece. At the same time prices keep going up on the new pieces and many of the older pieces were dropping. Well guess what? I am no longer trying to complete the collection. In fact I am going to sell it off. As far as starting your own business in china - GOOD LUCK! That is the other simple fact of a market economy. If prices go up too much then competition jumps in to get their piece of the pie. Gee I wonder why so many companies are making PRR stuff. There is the high range brass models (key), the lower range brass (sunset), the resin kits (sunshine westerfield), plastic models, plastic kits etc. etc. . While I am not in HO, I appreciate the market. Even in O scale the same thing is happening but not to the same degree. There are some real high end brass models out there, in the thousands rather than hundreds. So what happens? Along comes Sunset models cutting cost of Westside model Q2 running around $3,000 by importing his model for around $1,300. Sunsets J1 imported at $950 dollars as compared to a Westside or Max Gray model at $2,000++. Oh, by the way Sunset is importing from China!! Initially his pieces were not so nice i.e.his frieght cars. But his latest models are getting good reviews. Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:59:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] loco modifications In a message dated 2/4/99 3:25:47 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << I came up with the following questions concerning the date of various modifications. I'm interested both as these apply to the M1 class, but to other classes as well. Some of these may be simultaneous, others may not... Drop coupler pilot (cast) >> Cast, probably the J1. K4 2665 (South Wind-Jeffersonian streamlining of 1940) had a drop couplerpilot which was described as fabricated. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:11:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos(reply) In a message dated 2/7/99 10:23:06 AM Central Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << A good example, I bought a PFM I-1 to go with my PFM L-1 I got when I graduated High School in 73 (98 bucks thank you). I paid $350.00 in August of last year and buy Christmas there was another for 5 HUNDIES and it sold. I laughed my ... off, ridiculous, but I suppose it has something to do with the RAILWORKS at nearly ONE THOUSAND Dollars ... a crime >> The real crime is a thousand dollar PRR locomotive painted in GN green. If I had an advance order on one of these, I would have seen toluidine red. BTW, my compliments for a great article in the January Model Railroading on the X45. I like your attitude about each of us modifying the Accurail car to the extent we are satisfied. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:34:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: New HO Brass Locos(reply) John, Do you remember that modular "G" SCale lay out that used to show up at the mall shows I set up in Southern California. It was originally owed by a Doctor and now it is a nice club. Neat idea maybe you start one around the St. Louis area. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:52:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Beaver Falls, Pa Hello Pennsy Community, I have been looking for quite sometime for a photograph of the Beaver Falls, Pa. PRR Pasenger station. Not just any station shot but a picture of the station with a Steam Locomotive and Train that has stopped or is passing by. In the days of commuter trains from Pittsburgh the outbound commuter trains would turn at the Homewood JCT. wye. Then they would make a short trip back to the Beaver Falls Station and lay over for the morning run into the city. I remember my dad saying that when he was a young boy he would ride his bike from New Brighton to that station on weekends. There was always several trains being attended by a holster. My dad and his friends were allowed to climb in the engines (probably G-5's) and P-54 or P-70 coaches that were used. So knowing that information, does anyone out there in PRR land have any photographs that show this setting. I would like to purchase any if possible. Thanks, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:36:17 +0000 From: boxcar46@nfdc.net Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#62354447: I saw this item for sale at eBay, Just for you BRASS lovers ! ps: please change the lettering! Title of item: PENNSYLVANIA L-1, 2-8-2, w/SoPac TENDER,~NR~ Seller: cooltoys@prodigy.net Starts: 01/31/99 13:41:12 PST Ends: 02/08/99 13:41:12 PST Price: Currently $233.26 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=62354447 Item Description: metallions PENNSYLVANIA L-1, 2-8-2     >From an estate sale auction, this is one of over fifty HO and HOn GAUGE TRAIN items that we will be offering in the next few days. The collector who passed away over 15 years ago had trains that were produced as early as the 1950's and these also will be listed. All are MIB or NMIB as is this beautiful L-1, Engine #3250, with a S/P tender. Don't miss this opportunity to make the perfect addition to your collection. NO RESERVE and low starting bid. Buyer prepays item and $10.00 s/h/i in US. Money orders processed within 24 hours, all checks subject to 14-day hold. If you are interested in $$INVESTMENT QUALITY$$ antiques, toys, collectibles and great advertising items, it is real easy to view our other fantastic listings, simply click here. THANKS FOR BIDDING! Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HTA1970@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:14:55 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy on the Delmarva I'm rather new to this list and hope this posts as I hope. I'm a rather avid fan of the Pennsy on the Delmarva Peninsula. I've been interested in it for about 10 years now. Just this past December I began to put together a web site on the Pennsy on the Eastern Shore and I think it has gotten to the point where I'm ready to get some feedback. I'm new to the whole HTML thing, but I'm trying. Right now I'm "trapped" in Atlanta, so my access to Pennsy information here is difficult to say the least. If anyone has anything which they can add or contribute, please let me know. I'm looking for anything which can be added. Also, does anyone know the facts about L-1 2-8-2 #3546. I'd like to be able to add information like builders number, where built, when built, and what happened to her and when. Thanks for all your assistance in advance. Harry Aycock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:18:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Brass Models Greg Stone and all, Thanks for the economic lesson 101. I think that you are exactly right, if you pay it your the sucker, if the shops pays it they are the suck, if the importer can't negotiate the price down he's the sucker! Who wins? You figure it out. Who gets stuck? Just look at the brass list at the Caboose's web site (THE CABOOSE of Denver), lots of Rail Classic and Challenger stuff. Not much Sunset at original prices though just some gougers stuff left over. I think it is time that we the modelers, the guys cashing out for this stuff, make the market! We can do this through Jerry Britton (jerry@dsop.com) and his strengths! We may have the contact that he does not have and vis versa but he has the numbers that we can commit to. How about a special run of the R-50b by Bill McClung at Red Caboose. I have a very good relationship with him and he may be willing to do it. This one single item could sell nearly 2/3 as many units as their X-29, every passenger car modeler could need at least one, they went everywhere. But it needs to have some realistic numbers for him. Let's keep this simple. Be honest and reasonable and give this single item a real number of how many you would purchase. I am in for 4, doesn't sound like a lot but it is realistic. I don't want to hear how he should make it, I'm sure he would keep the standards high. Just get the numbers to Jerry! The is one way to get to blood sucking brass imports, it is good old fashioned economics, he who lives but the supply and demand dies by the US BUCK and of course PLASTICS! You collector/psheudo modelers out there can have that tinny stuff, I'll buy from the medium best suited for the hobby, and stuff my mattress with the savings and laugh all the way to the bank. If a guy like Jerry Britton gets rich selling me mail order stuff, all the better, it 's just the good old American way. Reminds me when I was at Naperville and a friend of mine put his beautifully detailed brass FM CFA-16-44 (FF-16m) out on display and Larry Grubb from Life Like came by and said "we're going to do those" my jaw dropped! 900 HUNDIES for and A&B just became 145 bucks and likely better running! Greg Martin Feeling a bit rebelious! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:27:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Brass Models Greg & folks, If Red Caboose is considering an R50 kit, put me down for three, anyway, and I know of at least four guys who'd each be in for a couple. Post the same notion to the passenger car list and I think there'd be a reaction. And let the folks on the Santa fe, Mopac, New Haven, and ACL-SAL lists, and others, know about it. Express reefers are not well represented in the plastic market, and no steel REA car is offered, though I keep hearing rumors about Branchlines doing one eventually. An R50 is different enough, too, that it might catch a lot of attention from the "I gotta have one of everything" crowd, too. Sounds promising. As for brass...well they can kiss my ___! (Er, I meant bumping post). These guys got way out of hand years ago, with a few exceptions, such as Sunset .It's not even a good investment anymore. It's so bad pricewise that I'm glad they DON'T make any engine that I just "gotta" have, or can't get from another source. i've always wanted to see the Reading P7 atlantic done, but thankfully it hasn't happened. What would a 4-4-2, of a small class, cost nowadays.....1200-$1400? (Course for that you would get directional lighting). And then I'd have to wistfully watch someone else buy 'em, cause I wouldn't. And thankfully, they haven't done an 8S-lounge, even at the giveaway price of $458, factory painted. What crap! Makes me glad to enjoy kitbashing and a bit of scratchbuilding all the more. Anyone remember that old article in MR, "Better Buy Brass"? Even then they were telling you to bend over and be grateful the benevolent and self- sacrificing importers were offering their goods at any price, and the higher the better. Funny how only workers in Japan and Korea ever suffered from rising prices. Us good old suckers in the USA always have money to burn, right? When I think about it I'm all the more grateful to outfits like MDC and Athearn that at least offer products that newcomers to the hobby can afford, so we can keep this hobby alive. $1500 brass engines don't bring a whole lota people into the hobby. Oh well, where'd I lay that xacto knife and bag a' NERS windows? Barry (finally winded) Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HTA1970@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:24:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy on the Delmarva Sorry about the error. I forgot to tell everyone where to look. The site address is: http://members.aol.com/ESHRR/index.html Thanks for the help and patience. Harry Aycock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:41:19 EST Subject: [PRR] 1955 Freight Car painting instructions Hey PRR-Talkers, I'm writing a historical piece for publication on the N6 cabin cars. I've gotten all the way to the Jan. 5, 1956 tracing showing the Shadow Keystone scheme for wood=bodied cabin cars. In Middle Division's PRR Compendium there's no separate spec listed on the tracing for painting, just a note saying to refer to Instructions for the painting of freight cars issued at Altoona, Pa., on Dec. 8, 1955. I've searched my files and I never picked up a copy of these instructions. It's not included in the material accompanying Gary Rauch, Bob Johnson and Frederic Shaefer's cabin car painting and lettering article in the December 1974 Keystone nor is any reference made to them in the text. Anybody out there known of a source where I can get a copy of these instructions and any revisions? Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:40:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Question about G28 Gondolas According to the Summer 1991 Keystone, the PRR in Feb 1942, at the Altoona Car Shops, took one G28 steel sided gondola and stripped the steel sides from it, replacing them with a steel truss-like structure to which wood side walls were attached. The steel floor was replaced with a wood floor. This car was numbered 343432 and was reclassified to G28a, EXCEPT that the "a" was NOT added until AFTER they took a photograph. Supposedly, the railroad corrected it later. The AAR apparently using the PRR design rather than their own, increased the height of the sides by 3 inches. This composite design became the standard and 10 railroads (including PRR) placed orders for 4,130 gons. The PRR placed the largest order (1,000 cars) which were class G30, and were delivered in early 1943. Hope this helps. Regards, Dennis Sautters Canton, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vincent Troia" Subject: Re: [PRR] Beaver Falls, Pa Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:45:31 -0500 Hi Delores, I reside in Monaca, only a few miles away from Beaver Falls. I have not seen this picture that you have described, even though I peruse many antique shops. Nevertheless, there are many retired PRR employees in the area that have many PRR collectables in their home. I will keep an eye focused! Vincent -----Original Message----- From: doloris mittner To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 10:56 AM Subject: [PRR] Beaver Falls, Pa Hello Pennsy Community, I have been looking for quite sometime for a photograph of the Beaver Falls, Pa. PRR Pasenger station. Not just any station shot but a picture of the station with a Steam Locomotive and Train that has stopped or is passing by. In the days of commuter trains from Pittsburgh the outbound commuter trains would turn at the Homewood JCT. wye. Then they would make a short trip back to the Beaver Falls Station and lay over for the morning run into the city. I remember my dad saying that when he was a young boy he would ride his bike from New Brighton to that station on weekends. There was always several trains being attended by a holster. My dad and his friends were allowed to climb in the engines (probably G-5's) and P-54 or P-70 coaches that were used. So knowing that information, does anyone out there in PRR land have any photographs that show this setting. I would like to purchase any if possible. Thanks, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] RE: brass ...Niche, Niche, Niche!! Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:28:57 -0800 I still don't get why you guys are angry at these importers with "high prices". There is so much on the market that you don't have to turn to them. At the same time there are people,I am sure,who really appreciate the detail and quality in these pieces. There are people in the world of model railroading who have more money than modeling skills or time. These importers are filling that niche. Hurrah for them! I don't think these importers are gouging you as much as you think. Talk to some people who have imported. It is not an easy or financially safe venture. Talk to Bob Weaver of Weaver O guage trains. He invested big bucks only to have the builder go under on him. He lost tens of thousands on a single project. How long do you think it will take him to recoup that? The changing economies can cost you on exchange rates. Going to china means setting up a factory in a foreign country! There is also a lot of time and money invested in research and tooling or castings. You have to have skilled craftsman. You can't just take someone off the street and have them solder and paint these tiny models to the satisfaction of such a picky bunch as we modelers. I think you guys way underestimate the cost of building these models. On the other hand there have been some saying that they might be able to make these models in the USA at the price they are going. That is becuase Korean labor rates have risen to that approaching US labor rates. A move to cheaper labor rates such as China is risky and a large financial and personal investment. However the market is driving that move. I know of several people who have imported products through known import companies. I ask them why not import directly since you have the research time and money invested. They all come back with, " You have no idea what a headache it is to deal with the Koreans. They shake their heads to whatever you say then go do the thing wrong directly against your wishes. You can only send the models back so often to have them corrected then they won't do anymore and all your profits are eaten up. " I know an individual who recently imported through a known importer in O scale. It was a project he really wanted done and so he did the research and invested tens of thousands in the project. Fortunately he sold out almost immediately and recouped his investment and I assume made a profit. I asked him when he will start his next project a similar but smaller car. He said maybe never, this last project took too much out of him. He told me about another smaller project he did that he invested thousands into. He had someone request a couple pieces and wanted a discount. This really irked him. He said he wished he could just sit back and purchase a couple pieces rather than invest the time and risk the money to get the project done. I think you guys should just enjoy what you can afford and let the other people enjoy the more expensive stuff. It is no skin off your nose. Live and let live. The market will make less expensive brass if there is demand. If it can't it won't. I haven't been in the modeling world very long but I have already learned one thing, most things come around sooner or later and usually at the price you want it. By the way, I see alot of brass HO pennsy stuff going on E-bay for the low hundreds. You might try looking there! Please take no offense! I just thought you might appreciate some insight from the other side the fence. Wishing you all happy modeling, Greg Stone PRRT&HS member interested in any information or photos of the Renovo Yards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:33:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy on the Delmarva In a message dated 2/7/99 1:44:45 PM Mountain Standard Time, HTA1970@aol.com writes: << Just this past December I began to put together a web site on the Pennsy on the Eastern Shore and I think it has gotten to the point where I'm ready to get some feedback. >> What is the web address for your web page? Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]R5Ob was Re: Brass Models Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:34:47 -0600 Greg--Great idea. I'll take ten for me and a couple of guys not on the list. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:22:39 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Brass I agree with everything that has been said about the brass import market except the unguarded comment about computers. In 1999, comparing a brass locomotive to a computer is like comparing an electric train to an automobile in 1930. But, back to the subject of brass market ... perhaps someone on this list with knowledge of such things knows the thresholds of numbers of locomotives per run compared with different cost factors. From the limited knowledge I have about this issue, if there are 300 or so guaranteed sales for a particular run, an importer might risk 500 total. Ten years ago, 500 per run meant a reasonable price ($265 for a Samhongsa HOn3 EBT mike). So, given that the producer is still in Korea (PRC's got to be a nightmare to work with), what would be the cost per unit of something EVERYONE needs in the PRR modeling community if 500 or 600 units were ordered, with an upfront reservation list of 300 or 400? BTW, no one has mentioned whether or not import duties on luxury items coming into the US from the Pacific Rim have gone up over the past several years of trade war. If so, that would also be a factor. Down with the Running Dog Exploiters of the Modeling Proletariat! Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:41:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Question about G28 Gondolas In a message dated 2/7/99 8:41:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, Prr1187@aol.com writes: << This car was numbered 343432 and was reclassified to G28a, EXCEPT that the "a" was NOT added until AFTER they took a photograph. Supposedly, the railroad corrected it later. >> This seems to match the photo in the Cyclopedia. I can make out 3?3?32 on the number (picture is oblique and the ribs get in the way). Thank you!!! Now, does anyone know a published picture of a "straight" G28? John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:52:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Brass Locos(reply) Bob, Thanks for the compliments on the article. The photo's did not come out as nice as I had expected, a little too dark. You can get a better interpretation of them on Rob Schoenberg's site or the MEMRA web site. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:49:28 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Hauf" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: trading museum pieces Greg, Getting anything shipped these days with journal (friction) bearing trucks is nearly impossible without an act of God or a very supportive yardmaster. I am Freight Superintendent for the Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum(http://www.rgvrrm.mus.ny.us/), and I have learned very fast the difficulty of getting older equipment on friction shipped. Most of the time, we now bring it in with trucks and large lowboy trailers. We have had to do this for moves less than 60 miles. Kinda wild watching a 40' reefer flying down the highway. ;) Some groups have lucked out and found sympathetic people to move the equipment, but most of the major railroads today simply want nothing to do with journal bearing trucks. Change them out to rollers and you are good to go most of the time though if the equipment isn't too old and for freight cars has new brakes. For instance, I was recently told by the CMO of a shortline I know that CSX stated it will ship NO journal bearing trucked equipment (freight cars, locos, whatever). Very scary, but in some ways I can understand their fears. No longer do they have the supplies and in some cases, the trained personel to deal with journal bearings. And if something goes wrong, it can cost them a lot of money and time. It just makes things very hard and costly for museums large and small. Not to put a damper on the hopes of seeing these PRR locos "come home", but I just don't see the railroads wanting to take on the risk. I hope someone can prove me wrong. Until later, Chris At 08:39 AM 2/6/99 -0800, you wrote: >I was talking to the museum curator of the PRR museum about getting the H21 >and an X 29 boxcar. We got around to discussing the I1sa about a potential >trade. He said they were working on trading the NKP berkshire for it. The >museum was willing to trade and pay transportation cost both ways. I got the >impression it was going to happen but that was over a year and half ago! > One problem the museum is suppose to have now is rail transportation. >One of the last aquisitions had a smoking box and a fire and had to be set >off. These type of delays can be costly to AMTRAK or whoever has a track >delay. I have heard they refuse to move any friction bearing cars across >their tracks to the museum now. > Greg > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:13:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FP7's In a message dated 1/25/99 7:29:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: > I always enjoy picking up info on the FP7's as they're one of my favorite > engine models, at least short of pure passenger engines. Reminds me of tales > a > real old Pennsy hand used to tell us at the local pub after club meetings. > (Anyone kept up on Don Hess, by the way? last I heard he was down in Cinncy). > > Seems Don started out back in the 50's with a Pennsy job he should have had > to > pay them for: noting engine and consists numbers at the Pittsburgh depot. He > used to make special mention of some of the big St. Louis trains coming in > behind four unit sets of FP7's, with F7B's, all in the correct order. These > weren't the second rank jobs either, but the nane trains. He had a wealth of > info ( "ya couldn't run 'short cars' {X29's} on that train...too bumpy for > the > Pullmans.." and etc) and we always hated to hear the bartender hollering > Last > Call. Barry, Don Hess is a member of the notorious "Cincinnati Division", an informal group of PRRT&HS members who are dedicated to constantly improving the quality of PRR modeling in the Ohio Valley. These are the kind of modelers whom you visit, and then don't know whether to sharpen up your modeling, or burn your whole layout . Barry, I showed Don Hess your email note today. He's still up to his old tricks -- Don laughed, and said to tell you hi -- then proceeded to regale us with tales of squadrons of business cars that would at times congregate at Philadelphia or Pittsburgh. I just returned from an evening in Cincinnati, where 23 PRR fans from Cincy, Columbus, New Castle IN, and Louisville (me) congregated, jawed, studied models, and exchanged info and opinions. As an extra, added treat, one of the group's guests was John H. White, Jr., Senior Curator of Transportation at the Smithsonian (yes, the author of The American Railroad Passenger Car, The American Railroad Freight Car, and all those books and articles on early locomotives). John is teaching in the area (Miami University, Oxford Ohio), and presented a talk on the railroads as an integral part of everyday life when he was growing up in Cincinnati. The group also discussed plans for its display of PRR models at the upcoming Lines West Fan Fest (Xenia OH, April 10), for the PRRT&HS annual (Altoona in August), and for the NMRA train show/sale in Cincinnati the weekend before Thanksgiving. More on each of these to follow. So, Barry -- Don is still spouting those fantastic-but-true tales of the Pennsy, and he's involved in some top-notch modeling, too. Rick Tipton Louisville, KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:43:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR operations on the Panhandle in the 40's. In a message dated 1/22/99 6:04:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: > Can any one fill me in on what locos would be prototypical for modeling a > portion of the Panhandle near Dennison Ohio. I remember a lot of steam > and a lot of double headers. I was born in 1938 so you can gauge the > accuracy of these memories. One phenomena I remember is that the water > plugs were spaced for double headed short locos, probably K-4s. Then > when longer locos (M1 or T1) the train would stop, take water, move a bit > and take water again, or stop short of the plugs and cut on or both > engines off. > Fred, You need to talk to Curt LaRue in Cincinnati. Curt is modeling the Panhandle Division in the early 50's and he's built up a nice stable of steam power (some of it with Lines West numbers, too.) No sense in me making any guesses -- I'm modeling the Panhandle's Columbus Division. Not only is this west of Dennison, but I'm stuck in 1968. Rick Tipton At the south end of the Panhandle -- Louisville ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose R50b Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 06:16:59 -0500 From: Jerry Upon summary of the Car Request Survey, the R50b was one of the most requested cars, with the notation that one of "Red Caboose quality" was desired (per their X29's). I did not say that Red Caboose was making one -- nor did recent posts suggest I had. However, posts over the past 48 hours imply that this was the case...or did someone hear direct that Red Caboose is doing this project? I did submit the results of the survey to Red Caboose and asked that they consider it. I also inquired of Rail Classics about potentially using their masters if they will not be re-running the R50b in brass (declined). Has anyone heard direct from RC that they are doing this car? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:45:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Brass Model Prices Phread, If I lead you to believe that the shops were at fault then I did a miss service to you all. The shops are not to blame they are encouraged to buy pieces from every run or frankly they could loose their retail connection with the importer. You can't blame the people actually manufacturing them they probably never see them after they ship them. The point is that, no one is really at fault and we all are. Buy the deals on older pieces and start a letter writing campaign to manufactures encouraging them to start building the models we need in plastic. Anyone that thinks you have to build your own plant in China in order to have a model put into production has rocks in his head. The Department of Commerce has convention/shows set up just to promote this kind of business for countries just like China that are on the preferred importer list. They usually have their goods shipped in to our country if not duty free then at least at a huge reduction. Countries like the former Yugoslavia will fall into this category in the future as the unrest settles in those countries. I really couldn't care less what the working conditions are and the wages paid in these countries, frankly it is not my concern, I just want competitive priced products. I absolutely believe that a producer in China can make a heavyweight sleeper at a very reasonable price. Or perhaps a USRA 2-8-2 with that fantastic new belt drive system. Better yet how about a PRR I1sa with a long distance tender. With the amount of reoccurring interest in steam I can see a huge expansion in the market place. The detail is incredible on the Bachmann Consolidation. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:11:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Erie builts (HO) Roger, MC is Miracle Casting and Jerry Britton (jerry@dsop.com) will be happy to take your reservations. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:59:13 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]R5Ob was Re: Brass Models Re: R50b's. Put me down for 2. Dick Taylor Dalbo MN PRR-Talk@dsop.com wrote: > Greg--Great idea. I'll take ten for me and a couple of guys not on the > list. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:56:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass *******hahahhahahah, i should have expected nothing less from our resident iconoclast..??!!!hahahahhahaha... Funny, i bailed outta O scale brass into G gauge plastic years ago...and I did sock away some mattress money !!! Almost all of the Non-LGB G stuff comes from CHINA...( Aristo-Bachmann-USA trains all share time at one PRC plant !) The brass importing folks move from each Pacific rim country as prices change...Japan to Korea to China... Hey, collect whatever makes you happy...!!! Stay warm, Bill********* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:13:49 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: brass ...Niche, Niche, Niche!! From: locoshop@juno.com To Greg and all, I must say that I am not steaming mad (pun intended) or even a little upset, call it perplexed. I would love to have a good running model and highly detailed M1 or J1 or Q2, but I am NOT prepared to pay $2100-$2500 for any of these. I think the reason for raising prices on brass as such is two fold. One because there are those that are willing to pay these prices. If they priced a model at $2500 and it did not sell or only sold 10-20 of them the price would come down, if nothing else but to clear stock. Overland overdid the Union Pacific C60/44AC in the painted version. The original price on these was around $750, they came down to the point where they were selling them for $450 each from what I understand. So as long as folks are willing to pay the importers price, it will keep going up. Second reason I feel is that these brass big wigs want to protect their "investment" in the brass market of past. They have older models and want to ensure that they will fetch a higher price in the used market. As long as enough people want to buy at these prices, they will keep going up. I had gawked at the price of $1200 about 4 years ago for a brass Big Boy (I was a UP modeler at the time), but now we are talking about $2100 for an M1 with half as many drivers. Come on now, when does the price go so high that you say enough is enough? Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose R50b Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:33:11 -0500 We will take AT LEAST 72 of the cars, assuming 12 road numbers of the initial run and 48 of each subsequent run. The Red Caboose stated that they have no current plans to produce this car......hopefully the numbers may persuade them differently. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:21:00 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Crisis of Faith Hi all, Had a little crisis of faith over the weekend...As many of you know, I intend to model Columbia PA and it environs circa 1944. The problem is that right now, all I have is an 11x14 bedroom, and trying to squeze everything in has stalled construction. While scanning back issues of MR last week, I tripped across a John Armstrong layout plan, designed for S-scale narrow gauge called a "mushroom for a bedroom" in the Feb 1993 issue. Looking at the plan...I though hmmm...could be modified to HO standard gauge, with 30" radii...but it didn't really fit the A&S or C&PD...although I'm still working on that. What it did fit was the Elmira branch! In particular, the north end, such as Watkins Glen to Sodus Point. Even more impressive would be to modify the plan to N-scale! What's so cool about the Elmira Branch? Lots! Lets say we model circa 1955. 1) 3-6 northbound coal "extras" daily...one (or two) I1s on the point, 2 I1s (or the occasional L1) shoving 2) appropriate southbound empties 3) coal yard and pier at Sodus Point 4) additional industries and interchanges from Watkins Glenn to Sodus Point, switched by the coal trains or locals 5) approx 3 daily NYC (booo hisss)- PRR pool trains with NYC/PRR power mixes 6) Wow, what a mix of power! PRR steam...B, C, K4, L, H, I, M (very late) PRR diesel...sharks (freight and passenger), PA, FA, F's, Baldwin Transfer, GP7 (including passenger versions with rooftop "torpedoes") NYC...Mowhawks, FA, etc... 7) A helper district. 8) Spectacular Finger Lakes Scenery Fortunately, I've returned to my senses and won't be selling off all the elctrics just yet , but its a neat layout to think about...maybe, time permitting, I'll work up a plan for Model Railroad Planning 200? Happy Dreams Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose R50b NOT! Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 12:10:49 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/8/99 12:00 PM, Dennis @ D & S Hobbies (dennis@onerrave.com) wrote: >I talked to Red Caboose today. They indicated that they were not >considering the R50b at this time. Depending on the numbers collected here, >maybe they can be convinced. I've got a query in to Dave at Red Caboose as we speak. The list has 300 subscribers...and an already expressed need for in excess of 100 cars (not counting your 72). I have reiterated this to them. If we are but 300 subscribers committing to 100 cars and the first run of "REA" X29's was only 1500, that ought to tell you something: they should be able to sell out a run of that size. Only difference is, the X29 was already created and RC just had to mold a few new parts and add some lettering. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose R50b Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:00:59 -0500 Jerry, I talked to Red Caboose today. They indicated that they were not considering the R50b at this time. Depending on the numbers collected here, maybe they can be convinced. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 8:40 AM Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose R50b >Upon summary of the Car Request Survey, the R50b was one of the most >requested cars, with the notation that one of "Red Caboose quality" was >desired (per their X29's). > >I did not say that Red Caboose was making one -- nor did recent posts >suggest I had. However, posts over the past 48 hours imply that this was >the case...or did someone hear direct that Red Caboose is doing this >project? > >I did submit the results of the survey to Red Caboose and asked that they >consider it. I also inquired of Rail Classics about potentially using >their masters if they will not be re-running the R50b in brass (declined). > >Has anyone heard direct from RC that they are doing this car? > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com >"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com >----------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 12:05:34 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] Re: [PRR]R5Ob was Re: Brass Models Put me down for one -- maybe two. I guess the Pennsy ran couple of them now and then on the Fort Wayne Line ;) Ted Andrews Carmel, IN ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]R5Ob was Re: Brass Models Author: Dick Taylor at Internet Date: 2/8/99 11:01 AM Re: R50b's. Put me down for 2. Dick Taylor Dalbo MN PRR-Talk@dsop.com wrote: > Greg--Great idea. I'll take ten for me and a couple of guys not on the > list. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:04:19 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Brass Prices Hi All, Geeee, guess I stirred up a hornets nest on brass prices . My opinion? (FWIW) 1) You don't like the price, you don't have to buy 2) Runs of 200-500 pieces are NOT cutting into the plastic market. Basically, with the exception of Bowser, no-one (except cottage industries like Miracle Castings) in the plastic market is interested in single road prototypes. The Botchman K4 being an exception, like the GG-1...the two most recognized locomotives on the planet (?). 3) You get what you pay for...the competition for extreme detail, correct tenders, correct period mods, correct mods for specific road #s drives prices up, and up and up. Sorry, you can't tell me that Sunset always does this, cause I know its not true (I own some). 4) Its the global economy stupid. Didja notice Korean cars ain't cheap anymore either? Also, remeber to count inflation...go back and figure the cost in constant dollars, and, while the price has gone up, it isn't nearly as bad as you think . 5) China...many current "Korean" brass models are actually built in China. Korean wages are too high, and Korean companies are "bailing". The problem is that they have to train NEW chinese workers. This was reflected in deplorable quality a few years ago...its getting better. However, the Korean's aren't going to make the same mistake as the Japanese (who trained the koreans, and then lost the business to them). Look to the Korean's to maintain control of the design process in an effort to block a completely Chinese product. 6) Collectors...the big auction a few years ago, with $30K price tags was a hint. Collectors are going to get into the market in a big big way...and these pieces will NEVER run again, but will sit on the shelf as "interior decorating". Buy now, cause you ain't seen nothing yet in the price area! 7) Running brass...oh yeah baby! My Railworks I-1 is a smooth as a baby's behind! (and i got the baby to compare to ;^> ) All drivers sprung, can motor, flywheels, with complete backhead detail...runs better 'n Kato diesels! 8) Sure, I wish there was a cheaper alternative! Lets see, I need at least 10 P5a electrics...anyone want to tell me who's making that in plastic . And for steam, lets see...there's Bowser...with maybe one or two correct tenders (the "high side" is a pretty good 90F75, and the "coast to coast" looks like it might be a reasonable 210F82), antiquated drive systems, and with detail kits, nearly $200 a pop (and you still have to build it!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:18:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass R50b Express Reefers Bill and others/R50b Bill, I don't think the problem is finding a PRR R50b, I think the problem is that the people are having a hard time parting with their money. I don't know what the list price is on the Rail Classics R50b but I saw a dozen or so at the Timonium, Maryland train show last weekend for I believe $160.00. FACTORY painted in all the versions you could want. I am sorry now that I didn't purchase one. I wish I knew who the dealer was and I would get in touch with them now. $160.00 is not alot of money. You can avoid buying a couple cases of beer, cigs and all the other bad habit items and you could have one of those cars paid for within a couple of weeks. Would I like to see a plastic car put out by Red Caboose? You Betta! I plan on modeling a mail train and I myself could use a handful of kits. I could see it now, BP20 A-B, B-60s, BM70's , R50b's, BM70K's, an N5 express agency cabin and a P70 or two on the tail end. But as for now, we have to purchase what is out there and be greatful that someone did finally import a needed item, like the R50b. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: [PRR] Brass R50b Express Reefers Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:39:34 -0600 With all this discussion, and apparent desire, for R50b reefers I just thought I would mention that Trainsource Texas in Houston has three new, factory painted, brass R50b's by Rail Classics for $ 195 each. Anyone interested can contact them at 1-800-338-5768, ask for Marty. They do mail order. Bill Laird ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Prices Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:44:30 -0500 Bruce, and the list, The bottom line is as you said........NOBODY MADE YOU BUY BRASS ! The price is a little high and I only buy the Brass that I have to have.......I don't drive a Hyundai eather. I spend 25-30 grand on the car or truck that I want, no matter what the price, I just have to think....HOW BAD DO I WANT THIS THING !!!!! When I was younger ( around 1952) there was no Brass, later after the Military, brass was around $65 - $85.00. Today Brass runs anywhere from $250.00 to $15,000.00. You do get what you pay for.......There is nothing wrong with Plastic (MDC, Bachman, AHC, IHC, Rivarossi), Resin (Miracle & Liberty), white metal castings ( Bowser), You pick what you want, or scratch build it! It's your choice, you don't have to buy Brass, but those who do like it will pay whatever they want, to get that certain piece, And thats there right.! If you don't like Brass or can't afford it.....OK, but leave the rest of us enjoy what we like and can afford. Remember it is a hobby......You do it your way, and I'll do it mine. I don't have to like what you do, and I don't expect you to like mine. But please....Enjoy the Hobby! So quit all the bitching and complaining and build something! Don't tell me what you are going to do.......Tell me what you are doing or have done ! Most of all.......have fun. Bill Knepper A Modeler with all of the above! (at the end of the Northern Central tracks in New Freedom, Pa.) waiting for the flames ! :>) ---------- > From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Brass Prices > Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 11:04 AM > > Hi All, > > Geeee, guess I stirred up a hornets nest on brass prices . My opinion? > (FWIW) > > 1) You don't like the price, you don't have to buy > 2) Runs of 200-500 pieces are NOT cutting into the plastic market. > Basically, with the exception of Bowser, no-one (except cottage industries > like Miracle Castings) in the plastic market is interested in single road > prototypes. The Botchman K4 being an exception, like the GG-1...the two > most recognized locomotives on the planet (?). > 3) You get what you pay for...the competition for extreme detail, correct > tenders, correct period mods, correct mods for specific road #s drives > prices up, and up and up. Sorry, you can't tell me that Sunset always does > this, cause I know its not true (I own some). > 4) Its the global economy stupid. Didja notice Korean cars ain't cheap > anymore either? Also, remeber to count inflation...go back and figure the > cost in constant dollars, and, while the price has gone up, it isn't nearly > as bad as you think . > 5) China...many current "Korean" brass models are actually built in China. > Korean wages are too high, and Korean companies are "bailing". The problem > is that they have to train NEW chinese workers. This was reflected in > deplorable quality a few years ago...its getting better. However, the > Korean's aren't going to make the same mistake as the Japanese (who trained > the koreans, and then lost the business to them). Look to the Korean's to > maintain control of the design process in an effort to block a completely > Chinese product. > 6) Collectors...the big auction a few years ago, with $30K price tags was > a hint. Collectors are going to get into the market in a big big way...and > these pieces will NEVER run again, but will sit on the shelf as "interior > decorating". Buy now, cause you ain't seen nothing yet in the price area! > 7) Running brass...oh yeah baby! My Railworks I-1 is a smooth as a baby's > behind! (and i got the baby to compare to ;^> ) All drivers sprung, can > motor, flywheels, with complete backhead detail...runs better 'n Kato > diesels! > 8) Sure, I wish there was a cheaper alternative! Lets see, I need at > least 10 P5a electrics...anyone want to tell me who's making that in > plastic . And for steam, lets see...there's Bowser...with maybe one or > two correct tenders (the "high side" is a pretty good 90F75, and the "coast > to coast" looks like it might be a reasonable 210F82), antiquated drive > systems, and with detail kits, nearly $200 a pop (and you still have to > build it!) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > > PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:30:03 EST Subject: [PRR] BRASS PRICES Folks, All this talk about brass prices, pro and con, has stimulated my inquiring mind to a bit of investigative research. With help of my trusty 1998 almanac and some old MR's we can readily percieve the relative bargains that await us. Observe: in 1967 the average wage of American production workers was $2.68 an hour or $101.84 per week. In 1996 it was $11.81 an hour and $406.26 per week, increase of 300%. Say the average woking stiff makes 4 times what he did in 1967. It's simple to pick up a december, 1967 MR and check out brass prices, and extrapolate what they would cost if their prices had risen the same as the working man's income. (I know, I know, motors and details are better now, but Cal Scale can provide much better parts now for a reletively lower price, but taxes were less then, so we've actually had less than a 300% increase in real wages, and etc.). So here's a few examples: 1967 1997 at actual inflation Model $119.95 $480 Gem PRR S2 Turbine $42.50 $170 Alco Models AlcoDL640 $89.95 $360 Gem C&O 4-8-4 $64.50 $258 LMB NYC H10b 2-8-2 $79.95 $320 PFM GN 2-8-0 painted Glacier I don't know if these prices mean anything to anyone else, but i do remember buying brass cabooses at $14.95 while I was working part time and going through college on the GI bill (which paid $80 a month in 1969). Since all the asian countries seem to be quite willing to pass their wage increases directly to the American consumer, I have to be at least a bit curious as to why no one has made brass in america for a long time. It was done once, and the only thing that stopped it was the importers desire for lower wages and higher profits. If anyone thinks high quality is a long time Japanese tradition, they don't remember what "made in Japan" meant back in the 1950's. They had to be taught , too. As for this crap about making things in Red China so we can enjoy good prices, better think again. Did Kato's or Atlas's prices go way down when they cut their labor costs by probably 80% ?Yeah, about as much as Barbies or anything else we buy. the cost difference went right into the manurfacturers pocket. Why does anyone think Lifelike engines listing for $100 eventually end up at M.B. Kleins for $29.95? Some poor guy remarked in the MR letters section once that he'd like to have product reviews state the country of origin.So of course Atlas was given a free hand to give this poor guy an unsolicited course in why the consumer is always wrong, er, benefitting from the benevolence of the importer/manurfacturer. Atlas explained that they kept their prices in the bargain basement by having track, for example, made in the cheapest country. What they didn't mention or point out is that two pieces of atlas track cost the same. The cheaper Red Chinese product costs as much as the one made by free citizens in America, so who kept the difference in production cost?Gets old to me. And I beg of folks,please don't give me the freshman economics again, please. I'm an accountant, I know all about it. And about conspicuous consumption and about let them eat cake. Some things I won't buy just on principle, afford them or not. But that's just me. Best regards, and if someone wants to sell brass passenger cars for the $100-$125 range, I might just listen. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:48:36 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR items on ebay Greetings to the group. I have a number of PRR items on Ebay, both locos and cars. I thought some of you may be interested. No reserves on any thing! Please check them out here: http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=paintloco@aol.com Thanks! Don Murphy Westside Locomotive Works ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:58:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Prices "O" Scale Pacific Limited H-21a and H-22a have just arrived "In country" All are pre sold at a price of approximately $300.00 each - unpainted less trucks and couplers. Dealers that I spoke to actually were almost eager for cancellations - they had lists of guys willing to pay $ 350.00. Sure I remember when HO Locos were $50.00 - and we nearly "lost" Penn Line - Bowser because the price of Brass was just a bit above their "die cast" models I remember when "O" scale freight cars were about the same price as HO ( $70 - $80) My advice - get used to it - the Orientals would like to live better too - and be VERY thankfull that you have the Bowser plastic Hoppers and round roof cars in HO Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:24:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Ebay Item PRR COLLECTORS Hello, just thought I would let any PRR photo collectors know about an item I have listed on ebay. If you are not familiar with ebay it is located at www.ebay.com Go to the search there and type in the item number search 63423451 It is a photograph that I found at an antique shop in Pittsburgh. It is actually 1 of about 6 that I purchased. It shows a view of the famous 1947 RED ARROW wreck on Bennington Curve. The auction ends on Wednesday the 10th. Great item! Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:55:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Brass Models From: Patrick M Egan MR - Better buy Brass? Keep in mind that our Good Friends In Milwaukee - I believe specifically the late editor Linn Westcott - published the statement once that he felt that brass prices were too low. They promptly began climbing, and at a far greater rate than they have recently. That's all right. Athearn is about to show us how to do the same thing with the prices of the plastic stuff. Ready for the $130 F-7? Pat Egan On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:27:26 EST BPX29@aol.com writes: >Greg & folks, >If Red Caboose is considering an R50 kit, put me down for three, >anyway, and I >know of at least four guys who'd each be in for a couple. Post the >same notion >to the passenger car list and I think there'd be a reaction. And let >the folks >on the Santa fe, Mopac, New Haven, and ACL-SAL lists, and others, know >about >it. Express reefers are not well represented in the plastic market, >and no >steel REA car is offered, though I keep hearing rumors about >Branchlines doing >one eventually. An R50 is different enough, too, that it might catch a >lot of >attention from the "I gotta have one of everything" crowd, too. Sounds >promising. >As for brass...well they can kiss my ___! (Er, I meant bumping post). >These >guys got way out of hand years ago, with a few exceptions, such as >Sunset >.It's not even a good investment anymore. It's so bad pricewise that >I'm glad >they DON'T make any engine that I just "gotta" have, or can't get from >another >source. i've always wanted to see the Reading P7 atlantic done, but >thankfully >it hasn't happened. What would a 4-4-2, of a small class, cost >nowadays.....1200-$1400? (Course for that you would get directional >lighting). >And then I'd have to wistfully watch someone else buy 'em, cause I >wouldn't. >And thankfully, they haven't done an 8S-lounge, even at the giveaway >price of >$458, factory painted. What crap! Makes me glad to enjoy kitbashing >and a bit >of scratchbuilding all the more. >Anyone remember that old article in MR, "Better Buy Brass"? Even then >they >were telling you to bend over and be grateful the benevolent and self- >sacrificing importers were offering their goods at any price, and the >higher >the better. Funny how only workers in Japan and Korea ever suffered >from >rising prices. Us good old suckers in the USA always have money to >burn, >right? When I think about it I'm all the more grateful to outfits like >MDC and >Athearn that at least offer products that newcomers to the hobby can >afford, >so we can keep this hobby alive. $1500 brass engines don't bring a >whole lota >people into the hobby. Oh well, where'd I lay that xacto knife and bag >a' NERS >windows? >Barry (finally winded) Peltier > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:21:42 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Prices From: locoshop@juno.com Hell all, This is my final one on this item, although I must say this has been a fun thread and has inspired some real conversation on this list. On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:04:19 -0600 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." writes: >1) You don't like the price, you don't have to buy I do not like the price but I do want to buy some of these. When people buy at these prices they never come down. I have really wanted a good M1/a/b but will have to settle for the Bowser model (if I get back into HO scale at all) and lots of extra details, although this is MODEL railroading and we each do what we have time for and find fun. >4) Its the global economy stupid. Didja notice Korean cars ain't cheap >anymore either? Also, remeber to count inflation...go back and figure the >cost in constant dollars, and, while the price has gone up, it isn't nearly >as bad as you think . Inflation looks like my dad's Chevy Chevette that he bought in the early 80's was around $4000, now the same size car with the same features goes for about $10,000. This is an increase of 250%, but brass has gone up that much, I would ventrue to say in the last 5 years not 15. >And for steam, lets see...there's Bowser...with maybe one or >two correct tenders (the "high side" is a pretty good 90F75, and the "coast >to coast" looks like it might be a reasonable 210F82), antiquated drive >systems, and with detail kits, nearly $200 a pop (and you still have to >build it!) That is what I think is fun though is the building that goes into a model, it makes it mine. Again this thread was fun, I am thusly signing off of this one so as to avoid anymore mass flaming<<>> Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:26:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Prices In a message dated 2/8/99 11:31:40 PM Central Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << and be VERY thankfull that you have the Bowser plastic Hoppers and round roof cars in HO >> I started a post and stopped, then Dick's remark resparked it. The glass IS half full, not half empty. It is a crime that plastic HO H21 hoppers were not available 40 years ago,given their prototype numbers. Today we've got them,and the X31a's, GSH, F30A, and the fantastic Red Caboose X29! And FM, X31f, G29, B60s, M70s in resin , and PB70s and P70s and D78s. Plus N5C and N5b. My Harbor lounge car is an AMB laser kit and Union Station products has sides for other passenger cars. . What's more, we now have a reissued BF16, a BP20, soon to-be Erie-builts, a future quality C-liner, and the Stewart C628s and VO1000s. As for steam, if you like to operate, I know they are not cheap and some require more than a minor compromise to accuracy , but a Bowser loco with a Helix humper runs great and I don't worry about delicate parts on a brass loco being mishandled. The T1 has been retooled. The Bachmann K4 has been improved and is DCC ready. The latter give you a $300 and an $80 alternative, respectively, to brass. For the onesy-twosy car, I save my pennies and buy brass at swap meets when I see a bargain. My 8 brass cabooses range from $30 to $70, except one $100 purchase. I only needed one N6A (to model the one straggler on the Chicago division) so paid $70 for it at Kansas City. To add to my fleet in the future, it will be plastic N5Cs, N5bs, and hopefully someday, N8s. I paid $300 for a fine operating, painted and weathered J1 with constant and reversing lighting at Long Beach. I dont expect anyone to produce a $100 plastic version and I don;t need a superdetailed colllector's item for operations. However, for those who have the votes (money), let them cast their votes for the latter in freedom. Doesn't mean I don't want a plastic K7, a resin X23 or X40b or an accurate tender for my I1, and I'll buy more R50bs and N8s if available, but let's not bemoan the fact we can't have a $100 Centipede or a mass-produced Q2 (Well,maybe the Q2:-)). Now, I'll go back to my corner and keep quiet, at least until tomorrow :-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Crisis of Faith Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:45:27 PST ...As many of you know, I>intend to model Columbia PA and it environs circa 1944. _______________________________ Easiest layout in the world to model, Doc. Just get an aquarium and fill it with water. Place a few poles along where the tracks would run, and build a small town up high on a hill over in the corner. There you have it. Columbia in the Spring. Andrew Harmantas, modeling the Pennsy from down here near C&O Milepost FM Zero. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:02:58 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic vs. brass From: locoshop@juno.com Bob, I must agree and I do apologize for possibly heating this discussion up. We do have a recent proliferation of plastic items available that never were before available except in brass. I have to say that after seeing scans of Jim Six's GP30 from LL P2K that this knocks the socks off of any offering of this model made in brass that I have seen yet, and things are getting better. It used to be you had to go to the brass manufacturers to obtain any of the different "phases" of a model but that is no longer where you look. We have Phase 2 and 3 GP9s, Phase 1 and 2a GP7s. All sorts of E units (not to mention the upcoming E6). Things are looking up for those of us in plastic. Athearn may also be taking the F-unit market in plastic to prices never seen before, but they are also taking quality to where you have NEVER seen before in plastic or brass. I must say though after looking at reviews, I would opt to purchase an Intermountain shell and adapt the LL P1K F3 drive to the shell. But we do have this option and it is our choice to make. I did have a Bowser I1 that was broken in, had the Bowser motor in it and all and it still ran very well. On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:26:58 EST Bobspf@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 2/8/99 11:31:40 PM Central Standard Time, >VVA249@aol.com >writes: > ><< and be VERY thankfull that you have the Bowser plastic Hoppers and >round > roof cars in HO >> > >I started a post and stopped, then Dick's remark resparked it. The >glass IS >half full, not half empty. It is a crime that plastic HO H21 hoppers >were not >available 40 years ago,given their prototype numbers. Today we've >got >them,and the X31a's, GSH, F30A, and the fantastic Red Caboose X29! And >FM, >X31f, G29, B60s, M70s in resin , and PB70s and P70s and D78s. Plus >N5C and >N5b. My Harbor lounge car is an AMB laser kit and Union Station >products has >sides for other passenger cars. . >What's more, we now have a reissued BF16, a BP20, soon to-be >Erie-builts, a >future quality C-liner, and the Stewart C628s and VO1000s. > >As for steam, if you like to operate, I know they are not cheap and >some >require more than a minor compromise to accuracy , but a Bowser loco >with a >Helix humper runs great and I don't worry about delicate parts on a >brass >loco being mishandled. The T1 has been retooled. The Bachmann K4 has >been >improved and is DCC ready. The latter give you a $300 and an $80 >alternative, >respectively, to brass. > >For the onesy-twosy car, I save my pennies and buy brass at swap meets >when I >see a bargain. My 8 brass cabooses range from $30 to $70, except one >$100 >purchase. I only needed one N6A (to model the one straggler on the >Chicago >division) so paid $70 for it at Kansas City. To add to my fleet in >the >future, it will be plastic N5Cs, N5bs, and hopefully someday, N8s. > >I paid $300 for a fine operating, painted and weathered J1 with >constant and >reversing lighting at Long Beach. I dont expect anyone to produce a >$100 >plastic version and I don;t need a superdetailed colllector's item >for >operations. However, for those who have the votes (money), let them >cast >their votes for the latter in freedom. >Doesn't mean I don't want a plastic K7, a resin X23 or X40b or an >accurate >tender for my I1, and I'll buy more R50bs and N8s if available, but >let's not >bemoan the fact we can't have a $100 Centipede or a mass-produced Q2 >(Well,maybe the Q2:-)). > >Now, I'll go back to my corner and keep quiet, at least until tomorrow >:-) > >Bob Zoeller Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed Date: Tue, 9 Feb 99 09:18:10 -0500 From: Jerry I will be updating my PRR/Manufacturer class/model cross reference table today. I need to update some info on available models, and I am cleaning up some historical data. Have a couple of questions regarding Proto 2000 units, following research on the Life Like web site, some of which is apparently inaccurate. 1. PA's -- The Life Like web site incorrectly duplicates the road numbers from the 2nd release (DGLE-5) to the 3rd release (Tuscan-5). From the third release, I have the two A units (5752 and 5753) and one of the B's (5752B). Was the other B unit #5753B? 2. FA2's -- The 2nd release is listed as units 9620 and 9623. The 4th release included units 9609 and 9625. Were there any other differences between releases? At one time, someone indicated the earliest release was incorrectly done in Tuscan, but I have an A and a B from that series and they are DGLE. 3. E8's -- Both 1st and 4th series are listed as Tuscan-5. The 5th release was Tuscan-1. Were the first two really Tuscan-5, or was one DGLE-5? The unit numbers were: 1st 5804 and 5894, 4th 5887 and 5898. (The 5th release included 5713 and 5797 which I have.) Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:35:44 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Jerry wrote: > I will be updating my PRR/Manufacturer class/model cross reference table > today. I need to update some info on available models, and I am cleaning None of the old P2K units are available anymore;-) > up some historical data. Have a couple of questions regarding Proto 2000 > units, following research on the Life Like web site, some of which is > apparently inaccurate. > 1. PA's -- The Life Like web site incorrectly duplicates the road numbers > from the 2nd release (DGLE-5) to the 3rd release (Tuscan-5). From the > third release, I have the two A units (5752 and 5753) and one of the B's > (5752B). Was the other B unit #5753B? no > 2. FA2's -- The 2nd release is listed as units 9620 and 9623. The 4th > release included units 9609 and 9625. Were there any other differences > between releases? At one time, someone indicated the earliest release was > incorrectly done in Tuscan, but I have an A and a B from that series and > they are DGLE. Con-Cor fantasy scheme was tuscan... the earliest release (I have one of those numbers) was DGLE single stripe (as was the later, P2K got them right) > 3. E8's -- Both 1st and 4th series are listed as Tuscan-5. The 5th > release was Tuscan-1. Were the first two really Tuscan-5, or was one > DGLE-5? The unit numbers were: 1st 5804 and 5894, 4th 5887 and 5898. (The > 5th release included 5713 and 5797 which I have.) There were at least 4 numbers tuscan-5, i can't assure you they were 2 releases, but if the life-like web site says they were they probably are. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:51:29 -0500 Jerry, PA-1 - Illustrations of each on our web site - Proto-2000 / Life Like listing PA-1 in DGLE-5 5754A, 5755A, 5754B and 5756B. (LL part 21666-21669) PA-1 in Tus-5 5752A, 5753A, 5750B and 5752B. (LL part 21684-21687) FA-2's Both runs were in DGLE. I believe that Model Power FA-2's were in Tuscan. E-8 The first two runs were Tuscan-5. They did NOT do an E-8 in DGLE. Hope this helps. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Future PRR Locos Date: Tue, 9 Feb 99 13:46:22 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/9/99 1:23 PM, Ted Andrews (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) wrote: > Have you heard anything from Life Like about coming out with another run > of E-8's? It would be nice if they would come out with an E-8 in Brunswick > Green. (I believe PRR's first order of E-8's were delivered that way) > > Also, have you heard any word on the time frame for the following: > > !. P2K GP-30 in PRR > > 2. FM C-liners Miracle Castings will have resin shells available in a few months for the C-Liners. > > 3. Anything else that would be of interest to a typical Pennsy nut Centipedes are likely coming from an "as yet to be announced" vendor. Erie-builts are coming. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose and the R50b Date: Tue, 9 Feb 99 13:40:14 -0500 From: Jerry There won't be an R50b from Red Caboose. What follows is a response I just received that covers that and other topics: > First I would just like to tell you that Dave is no longer with Red >Caboose. Second, the HO X-29 PRR "Merchandise Service" will be shipped this >week, hopefully today or tomorrow. As for the two future cars, I can not >advise you on the cars just yet. Finally, although I would like to do the >R50b, I doubt if we will. We would need to sell between 30 to 35 thousand >cars in the first two years just to pay for the tooling costs. If you do >know of any other railroads that use this car, please let me know. Thank >you, ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 13:23:15 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed Dennis: Have you heard anything from Life Like about coming out with another run of E-8's? It would be nice if they would come out with an E-8 in Brunswick Green. (I believe PRR's first order of E-8's were delivered that way) Also, have you heard any word on the time frame for the following: !. P2K GP-30 in PRR 2. FM C-liners 3. Anything else that would be of interest to a typical Pennsy nut Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks Ted Andrews (Who found and purchased a P2K E-7B (DGLE) from D&S after a nationwide search) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed Author: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" at Internet Date: 2/9/99 12:28 PM Jerry, PA-1 - Illustrations of each on our web site - Proto-2000 / Life Like listing PA-1 in DGLE-5 5754A, 5755A, 5754B and 5756B. (LL part 21666-21669) PA-1 in Tus-5 5752A, 5753A, 5750B and 5752B. (LL part 21684-21687) FA-2's Both runs were in DGLE. I believe that Model Power FA-2's were in Tuscan. E-8 The first two runs were Tuscan-5. They did NOT do an E-8 in DGLE. Hope this helps. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: Re[2]: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:46:03 -0500 Ted, At this time, Life Like is NOT planning on any future E-8 models. This could change if one of their new projects is delayed and they want to have a product to sell in its place.....(by the way, this is the same I hear on their P2K NE caboose). I don't know whether the PRR will be in the second or third run. I have heard RUMORS that the FM CF and CP series said to be coming from P2K is a joke and they do not intend to produce them. Again, I have seen postings stating that a Life Like rep said the CPA was going to be coming, but I've heard it was a joke....time will tell. By the way, due to the current shortage of GP7/9 antenna kits from Cal-Scale after P2K released their Pennsy models, I recommend stocking on antenna kits for the GP30's now. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews To: jerry@dsop.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com ; Dennis @ D & S Hobbies Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 1:55 PM Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed > Dennis: > > Have you heard anything from Life Like about coming out with another run > of E-8's? It would be nice if they would come out with an E-8 in Brunswick > Green. (I believe PRR's first order of E-8's were delivered that way) > > Also, have you heard any word on the time frame for the following: > > !. P2K GP-30 in PRR > > 2. FM C-liners > > 3. Anything else that would be of interest to a typical Pennsy nut > > > > Inquiring minds want to know! > > > Thanks > > > Ted Andrews > (Who found and purchased a P2K E-7B (DGLE) from D&S after a nationwide > search) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:59:25 -0000 Gents: Is there any talk of anyone building a good plastic N8 cabin in the near future? I know that TYCO did one many moons ago. How far off is the TYCO model, I looked at a few at the last GATS show, but it looked a little to toy-like, but much of this could be dealt with unless there is some major problem that I am not seeing. (Bowser are you out there.....) Also, I have just joined back on the list, what is with the message about Erie built diesels, BP20s and FM C Liners? Am I to assume that these are coming out soon? I knew a company in Canada was doing BP20 shells, is this the one? As far as the Proto E6, I cannot wait, hope to do one in SCL if I could just locate some SCL passenger car decals.... Some problems have come up with the tooling of some soon to be released items I have been told, but I am sure that these are minor hold ups. Between this and the Stewart C628 Century (come on PRR & PC paint jobs!), this could be a good year for me and a lot of others in the hobby. ECW B60s, anyone have any tips on these? I just picked up two of them. They look like really nice kits, especially for as limited as the market is for them. Are Model Die Casting "PRR roller trucks" the way to go on these? I scraped the ECW/E&B Valley trucks on my "New Haven" cars and went with others. Garrett Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:46:14 EST Subject: [PRR] P2k BGLE Since we're on the topic of Proto locomotives, I think that LL is hung up on painting PRR locomotives BGLE ( Bright Green Loco Enamel ). I don't ever recall this being discussed, am I the only one who thinks this way? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:44:33 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed From: locoshop@juno.com Jerry, On Tue, 9 Feb 99 09:18:10 -0500 Jerry writes: >2. FA2's -- The 2nd release is listed as units 9620 and 9623. The 4th >release included units 9609 and 9625. Were there any other differences >between releases? At one time, someone indicated the earliest release was >incorrectly done in Tuscan, but I have an A and a B from that series and >they are DGLE. The Tuscan 5 stripe units were actually done as a "Dream Scheme" by ConCor. >3. E8's -- Both 1st and 4th series are listed as Tuscan-5. The 5th >release was Tuscan-1. Were the first two really Tuscan-5, or was one >DGLE-5? The unit numbers were: 1st 5804 and 5894, 4th 5887 and 5898. >(The >5th release included 5713 and 5797 which I have.) The E8s were not done in DGLE. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:50:16 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Future PRR Locos From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I have it on pretty good authority that P2K will most likely be doing the Erie-builts, or was that the C-Liners? It was one or the other. On Tue, 9 Feb 99 13:46:22 -0500 Jerry writes: >On 2/9/99 1:23 PM, Ted Andrews (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) wrote: > >> Have you heard anything from Life Like about coming out with another >run >> of E-8's? It would be nice if they would come out with an E-8 in >Brunswick >> Green. (I believe PRR's first order of E-8's were delivered that >way) >> >> Also, have you heard any word on the time frame for the following: >> >> !. P2K GP-30 in PRR >> >> 2. FM C-liners > >Miracle Castings will have resin shells available in a few months for >the >C-Liners. >> >> 3. Anything else that would be of interest to a typical Pennsy nut > >Centipedes are likely coming from an "as yet to be announced" vendor. > >Erie-builts are coming. > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com >"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com >----------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station >Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:21:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE Todd, I agree Life Like has yet to get the color right in my opinion, hey, but who am I to say. They would be closer just painting them black. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:54:15 -0600 Garrett--For four wheel passenger trucks I have had good experience with ECW PRR 2D-P5 trucks using Kadee 36 inch wheel sets. Walthers lists them. You have to cut off the coupler arm and do some other cutting and fitting, but once assembled they have held up very well on the layout. I use them under P-70's, B60's, and also under two Alco brass R50b's which had terrible trucks. Wish they were sprung, but we can't have everything. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Garrett Rea To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 10:07 PM Subject: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s >Gents: > >Is there any talk of anyone building a good plastic N8 cabin in the near >future? I know that TYCO did one many moons ago. How far off is the TYCO >model, I looked at a few at the last GATS show, but it looked a little to >toy-like, but much of this could be dealt with unless there is some major >problem that I am not seeing. (Bowser are you out there.....) > >Also, I have just joined back on the list, what is with the message about >Erie built diesels, BP20s and FM C Liners? Am I to assume that these are >coming out soon? I knew a company in Canada was doing BP20 shells, is this >the one? As far as the Proto E6, I cannot wait, hope to do one in SCL if I >could just locate some SCL passenger car decals.... Some problems have come >up with the tooling of some soon to be released items I have been told, but >I am sure that these are minor hold ups. Between this and the Stewart C628 >Century (come on PRR & PC paint jobs!), this could be a good year for me and >a lot of others in the hobby. > >ECW B60s, anyone have any tips on these? I just picked up two of them. >They look like really nice kits, especially for as limited as the market is >for them. Are Model Die Casting "PRR roller trucks" the way to go on these? >I scraped the ECW/E&B Valley trucks on my "New Haven" cars and went with >others. > >Garrett Rea > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Future PRR Locos Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 05:59:05 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/9/99 10:50 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >I have it on pretty good authority that P2K will most likely be doing the >Erie-builts, or was that the C-Liners? It was one or the other. The above has been largely dispelled as a bad rumor. Sure, I'd like to see it, but I'll be surprised if it pans out. Life Like has denied it. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 05:56:38 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/9/99 4:59 PM, Garrett Rea (glrea@earthlink.net) wrote: >Also, I have just joined back on the list, what is with the message about >Erie built diesels, BP20s and FM C Liners? Am I to assume that these are >coming out soon? I knew a company in Canada was doing BP20 shells, is this >the one? The company in Canada is Miracle Castings. They did indeed come out with BP20 shells -- both A and B -- last fall. They have been in a severe backorder situation (2 months) since, and are just now catching up. They are excellent units and highly acclaimed vs. the other one that recently came out (TrainsStuff?). "Merchandise Service" (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) is one of the few US dealers for this product and offers them for $89 each, $10 off list. Miracle Castings has already announced FM C-Liners, currently slated for a late Spring release. As for Erie-builts...an announcement is pending. As an added bonus, an "as yet to be revealed" vendor is pretty far along on a BP60 Centipede project in resin. So cross your fingers! 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Brass Models Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:30:48 -0500 Hey, why should Athearn get the credit for raising the price of plastic locos? We've had $129.98 Kato SD45's for a while now! At least the Athearn F's should be correct (and they should produce enough for everyone!) When Stewart re-relases his old Kato units, they'll probably list for $100, and they still need at least $30 worth of detail parts to bring them up to the same class as the new Athearn ones! (grab-irons, a new pilot, etched grills, etc...) Athearn's not the leader in pushing up the price of plastic, they're just following everyone else! Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Patrick M > Egan > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 11:56 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Re: Brass Models > > > MR - Better buy Brass? Keep in mind that our Good Friends In Milwaukee - > I believe specifically the late editor Linn Westcott - published the > statement once that he felt that brass prices were too low. They > promptly began climbing, and at a far greater rate than they have > recently. > > That's all right. Athearn is about to show us how to do the same thing > with the prices of the plastic stuff. Ready for the $130 F-7? > Pat Egan > > On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:27:26 EST BPX29@aol.com writes: > >Greg & folks, > >If Red Caboose is considering an R50 kit, put me down for three, > >anyway, and I > >know of at least four guys who'd each be in for a couple. Post the > >same notion > >to the passenger car list and I think there'd be a reaction. And let > >the folks > >on the Santa fe, Mopac, New Haven, and ACL-SAL lists, and others, know > >about > >it. Express reefers are not well represented in the plastic market, > >and no > >steel REA car is offered, though I keep hearing rumors about > >Branchlines doing > >one eventually. An R50 is different enough, too, that it might catch a > >lot of > >attention from the "I gotta have one of everything" crowd, too. Sounds > >promising. > >As for brass...well they can kiss my ___! (Er, I meant bumping post). > >These > >guys got way out of hand years ago, with a few exceptions, such as > >Sunset > >.It's not even a good investment anymore. It's so bad pricewise that > >I'm glad > >they DON'T make any engine that I just "gotta" have, or can't get from > >another > >source. i've always wanted to see the Reading P7 atlantic done, but > >thankfully > >it hasn't happened. What would a 4-4-2, of a small class, cost > >nowadays.....1200-$1400? (Course for that you would get directional > >lighting). > >And then I'd have to wistfully watch someone else buy 'em, cause I > >wouldn't. > >And thankfully, they haven't done an 8S-lounge, even at the giveaway > >price of > >$458, factory painted. What crap! Makes me glad to enjoy kitbashing > >and a bit > >of scratchbuilding all the more. > >Anyone remember that old article in MR, "Better Buy Brass"? Even then > >they > >were telling you to bend over and be grateful the benevolent and self- > >sacrificing importers were offering their goods at any price, and the > >higher > >the better. Funny how only workers in Japan and Korea ever suffered > >from > >rising prices. Us good old suckers in the USA always have money to > >burn, > >right? When I think about it I'm all the more grateful to outfits like > >MDC and > >Athearn that at least offer products that newcomers to the hobby can > >afford, > >so we can keep this hobby alive. $1500 brass engines don't bring a > >whole lota > >people into the hobby. Oh well, where'd I lay that xacto knife and bag > >a' NERS > >windows? > >Barry (finally winded) Peltier > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:04:54 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 9 Feb, CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > Since we're on the topic of Proto locomotives, I think that LL is hung up on > painting PRR locomotives BGLE ( Bright Green Loco Enamel ). I don't ever > recall this being discussed, am I the only one who thinks this way? I haven't inspected the HO models, but the N Scale PRR freight locos produced so far (F3, FA, SD7) have all been a very suitable almost-black. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:56:46 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Future PRR Locos On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Jerry wrote: > On 2/9/99 10:50 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: > > >I have it on pretty good authority that P2K will most likely be doing the > >Erie-builts, or was that the C-Liners? It was one or the other. > > The above has been largely dispelled as a bad rumor. Sure, I'd like to > see it, but I'll be surprised if it pans out. Life Like has denied it. Note that they also denied the GP30 to a rec.models.railroad denizen just a few weeks before they announced it, so you can't put any stock in their denials either. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:02:02 -0500 Con-Cor did a "special" (read incorrect) run of Proto-2000 FA's in tuscan 5-stripe. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dennis @ > D & S Hobbies > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 11:51 AM > To: Jerry; PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Historical Info Needed > > > Jerry, > > PA-1 - Illustrations of each on our web site - Proto-2000 / Life Like > listing > PA-1 in DGLE-5 5754A, 5755A, 5754B and 5756B. (LL part 21666-21669) > PA-1 in Tus-5 5752A, 5753A, 5750B and 5752B. (LL part 21684-21687) > > FA-2's > Both runs were in DGLE. I believe that Model Power FA-2's were in > Tuscan. > > E-8 > The first two runs were Tuscan-5. They did NOT do an E-8 in DGLE. > > Hope this helps. > Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. > > Dennis > mailto:dennis@onerrave.com > > D & S HOBBIES > http://www.onerrave.com > 34 Main Street > South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:25:07 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart F units From: locoshop@juno.com Actually the price change in the Stewart F units says they will cost the same as the FTs and will use the same type of drive as the FTs. Therefore I have heard pricing will be around $130 on the Stewart Fs. On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:30:48 -0500 "Robert Schoenberg" writes: >Hey, why should Athearn get the credit for raising the price of >plastic >locos? We've had $129.98 Kato SD45's for a while now! At least the >Athearn F's should be correct (and they should produce enough for >everyone!) >When Stewart re-relases his old Kato units, they'll probably list for >$100, >and they still need at least $30 worth of detail parts to bring them >up to >the same class as the new Athearn ones! (grab-irons, a new pilot, >etched >grills, etc...) > >Athearn's not the leader in pushing up the price of plastic, they're >just >following everyone else! > >Rob > > Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis Tacke" Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Railroad encased/lucky pennies Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:25:43 -0600 Hello, I am seeking information for an article I am writing on encased/lucky pennies for the Railroadiana Collectors Association, Inc. magazine The Express. I am seeking information on three encased/lucky pennies that I have regarding the Pennsylvania Railroad. All three have the same basic message on the front - which reads "Prevent Freight Claims Handle Cars Carefully Penn. RR," but each has a different region of application - Buckeye Region, Pittsburgh Region, and Chesapeake Region. The back has the same message for all three - "Keep Me And Never Go Broke I Bring Good Luck." Does anyone know if there are more regions for these coins, and to whom these were given? I assume that they were given to freight handlers, but I could be wrong. Was it a system wide project? I would appreciate any and all information on the subject. Dennis Tacke ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:55:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Railroad encased/lucky pennies ***Dennis- one just was sold on ebay recently, might try the seller ?? It was the pitt version, neat picture !!!..bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] PRR operations at Chicago Union Station Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:18:35 -0600 After reading a fairly obscure book, entitled The New Train Watchers Guide to Chicago (1976) at my local library, I found the answer to the question I posted to the list recently about Panhandle Route operations on the North concourse at Chicago Union Station. The PRR paralleled the Milwaukee Road east of Western Avenue, but passenger trains did not use this line at all. The reason the Panhandle Route terminated at the North concourse was because it was used for switching and transfer runs. Passenger trains on the Panhandle Route left their line at the Bernice cutoff to switch to the Fort Wayne Route, via the South Chicago & Southern branch of the PRR, went through Englewood, and into the South Concourse at Chicago Union Station. In reading the book, I also found out that after the Merger, when Penn Central trains discontinued using LaSalle Street Station for former New York Central passenger operations, PC's NYC trains switched from the PC/NYC at Whiting onto the Fort Wayne Route and thus into Chicago Union Station's South concourse. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:32:25 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#64719543: I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. I know there are a few Philly modelers on the list, including Dave Wartell. Figure someone out there will want this. Title of item: Pennsylvania Railroad 46th St Eng House B/Pr Seller: pwkrail@aol.com Starts: 02/07/99 14:29:31 PST Ends: 02/14/99 14:29:31 PST Price: Currently $6.50 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=64719543 Item Description: PRR Blueprint 23 1/2 x 36 showing foundation plan & location of Phila. 46th St. engine house - tool bldg. office etc. Excellent condition except for 8" long chew marks on top left. Dated 1918. Scanned pic doesn't show clarity of blueprint which reads P. T. Division 46th Street Engine House Foundations Phila. Pa. Winners pays shipping via priority mail. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:26:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Official Lines West Fans Fest Announcement ATTENTION PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD FANS! Pennsylvania Railroad LINES WEST FANS FEST A weekend of celebrating that other PRR, the 4,500 miles of track west of Pittsburgh & Erie April 10, 1999, 10 a.m. - 4 p.m. at the Greene County Historical Society's Carriage House Museum 34 W. Church St. in downtown Xenia, Ohio (behind the K mart and Xenia Towne Square shopping center) General Admission $10 Advance "SPF" registration package* $30 Railfans, model railroaders and rail history buffs are invited to this first one of its kind event in one of Ohio's oldest railroad towns. See a display of the exquisite modeling skills by the craftsmen of the Cincinnati Division PRR Modelers Learn about railroading in Michigan's north woods copper country from members of the Grand Rapids & Indiana Railroad Historical Society Learn about the Greene County Historical Society's historically accurate modeling that went into its HO scale Operating Diorama of Xenia's Railroads 1920s-1950s- Learn more about various parts of Pennsylvania Lines West from presentations on the Panhandle Division, the Erie & Pittsburgh Division and the Columbus Division's "Passenger Line." Because of space considerations only a limited number of PRR-oriented vendors have been invited. April 11, 1999, from 3 p.m. 'til we get back! Take a ride on the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Ry. (once the PRR's Lebanon and Middletown branches) Departing from the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. depot, in Mason, Ohio for regular fare** of $10 Special Pennsylvania Railroad Lines West Fans Fest lodging rates are available, $42.50 plus $5.10 tax per night, single or double occupancy for reservations placed on or before March 15, 1999, with The Allendale Inn, 38 S. Allison Ave. Xenia, Ohio, 937-376-8124 Next to the Perkins' Pancake House at Allison Avenue & West Main Street (US 35 Business Loop) 1 mile west of PRR Lines West Fans Fest More than a dozen restaurants are located within three blocks of the hotel * Payment for 'Advance SPF registration' must be received by April 1, 1999. Package premiums nuclide Pennsylvania Lines hat and patch, a copy of "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1846-1996: its place in history" a collection of essays and research guide edited by Dan Cupper, and a reception at 5 p. m in "Xenia Station,' a full scale replica of the Pennsylvania Railroad's XG "Xenia" tower opened in 1998. ** The fare for CL&N excursion on the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. fare is separate from other PRR Lines West Fans Fest admission prices For more information contact Tom Vondruska, Pennsylvania Lines West Fans Fest, 326 W. Center College St., Yellow Springs, Ohio 45387-1406 937-767-1903, voice, data & fax e-mail: lineswest@aol.com The Pennsylvania Lines West Fans Fest is produced by VonCom/LinesWest, Yellow Springs, Ohio.. VonCom/LinesWest is solely responsible for the event. It is merely a leasee of, and is not affiliated with nor an agent of, the Greene County Historical Society. nor of the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] RE: Brass Prices Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:31:45 -0800 When comparing prices in inflation dollars please be sure to account for technologic and cosmetic upgrades. In O scale you can still buy some brass models of steam engines in the low one hundred dollar range. These engines have open framed motors with not the best gearing and certainly not that much detail and no backhead detail for sure. I could have purchased a Weaver two rail 1938 broadway K4 streamlined model just a couple years ago for about $800-$900. This is a very nice representation of the engine and a good product. Part of the reason it is such a good price is because the engine is also offered in three rail, therefore the number built could be much larger, probably in four to five hundred model count. On the other hand the same protoype was modeled for Lionel as a Smithsonian Edition by Fine Art Models in two rail. That model sold for $2,500. The difference in the two models is not noticable from afar, but up close there is no comparison. The detail on the latter is unbelievable full back head detail with lighting, full break rigging on engine and tender, the tender doors open, the stoker is there, the hatch on the cab roof opens and you can see all the valves, etc. etc... Oh, I forgot to mention the sound system in the Fine Art Model and the fact it came with a roller display base and a walnut carring case. The number built was probably around one to two hundred tops. There is also a art deco poster that came with it which of course no big deal, except the fact that it sells for about $100.00 now! There was a blow out of reconditioned engines a few years ago for $1,500 but they were gone in days. You can find the Weaver model now advertised frequently and sometimes for less than the issue price. I leave it to you to guess how often you find the Fine Art Models engine. The bottom line is that there are a host of reasons for increase brass cost. I htink this thread has brought that to light. The beauty of the capitalist system is that if you think you can do better just do it! I think that if you try to do it yourself you'll find it just isn't worth your while. If you think the manufacturers and importers are getting rich, jump in and get your share! I realize of course some could not possibly afford the initial investment. I am not in HO scale so I can't speak that much to the market but I have seen some HO Key models that were absolutely gorgeous for around $800.00. At the same time I see the much revered Bowser "KITS" with detail kits for around $200.00. I have also seen post to the inaccuracy of these models. They certainly don't have the detail that is on the brass models do they? Now figure your hourly rate and the time it takes to build up the Bowser model . I don't know but it seems to me that brass models aren't that far off are they? Compare a base model car today to the fully loaded version the price certainly can get much different. Now compare a base model economy car to that of a large size luxury vehicle. Maybe you guys are right, the prices are too high. But if they are I think you will find competition will jump in to correct that. Wishing you all quality models at a reasonable price. --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:13:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE PRR Guys, I am new to this chat room thing here but I am getting the hang of things now. I did not know what you guys meant when I first saw the initials BGLE. I do now. In my opinion I believe that the green LifeLike put on the E-7s is quite appropriate. This is a passenger engine and these engines had quite a different appearence in color than all those F, GP and all the other frieght units. I do not recall the issue but in a past KEYSTONE issue there is center spread of an E8 in color. It is the same DARK ENAMEL GREEN that LifeLike used. You are not expecting the Brunswick Green (Black) on these E units are you? I have the new GP 7's by Lifelike and they are perfect in every way, including the paint. Again, that is my opinion. And they are a different color than the E's because these GP's are not a PASSENGER UNIT. Every Color video I have also proves my point. You can see the green color in the Centipedes, the E's and I belive some PA's. On freight engines all you see is the darker color the PRR used. So the bottom line I am trying to say is the Pennsy used Brunswick Green for Steam Locos and Frieght Diesels and used a Greener shade,(Dark Enamel Green) for its Passenger Diesel Fleet. I am the only one who has this opinion? or am I color blind. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:50:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE Ditto to their Reading geeps. I didn't even like their version of tuscan on the e units. I didn't know if the green color only seemed that way to me, so I'm glad to learn we can't all have eyes that bad! Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Terry Link" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Future PRR Locos Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:33:52 -0500 ----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: locoshop@juno.com Cc: ted.andrews@woolpert.com ; PRR-Talk Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 07:32 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Future PRR Locos >On 2/9/99 10:50 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: > >>I have it on pretty good authority that P2K will most likely be doing the >>Erie-builts, or was that the C-Liners? It was one or the other. > >The above has been largely dispelled as a bad rumor. Sure, I'd like to >see it, but I'll be surprised if it pans out. Life Like has denied it. A couple of years ago Canadian Hobbycraft (Life Like Canada) tried to get Life Like to do the C-Liners. They declined, however, Canadian Hobbycraft kept bugging and offering the help cover the capital outlay, as well as provide some of the research material. As of November, I heard that they were going to be done probably by the end of 1999/early 2000. Though I know people on the inside, they do not come out and say they are definite, but they do have a big grin on their faces. A number of dealers I've talked to here in Canada also indicate that they believe they are in the works. Lets cross our fingers and hope it does happen. Terry Link Bramalea, Ontario TRLINK@netcom.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:28:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE In a message dated 2/9/99 11:20:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, CENTGA@aol.com writes: > Since we're on the topic of Proto locomotives, I think that LL is hung up on > painting PRR locomotives BGLE ( Bright Green Loco Enamel ). I don't ever > recall this being discussed, am I the only one who thinks this way? Todd > Horton > Todd: No, you are not. After seeing the first PK2 PRR DGLE locomotive, I refused to buy decorated units. It is total incomprehensible how LL could produce this color when they were given copies of the drift cards. Seem like a case of simple arrogance on the part of LL. "They'll buy it no matter what color it is." The only way to force a correct color is for all PRR modelers to forego the decorated versions. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HTA1970@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:19:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DAVIS and PERRY When I was a student at the University of Delaware, I was involved in a photography project documenting the stations on the Delmarva. Since the Newark station and Davis Tower were right there, I took pictures of them also. The Tower is on the South /east side of the tracks. Since frequent Amtrak trains are passing by it is not a very safe place. I was there not even 30 minutes before Amtrak police drove up. They were very pleasant, but that was 1992. To be safe and not trespass you might be able to get a look at it from either passenger platform or from the Delaware Avenue overpass. Harry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] DAVIS and PERRY Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:02:20 -0500 Is it possible to get a good look at DAVIS and PERRY tower without trepassing? May be out there mon. -Josh Trower http://members.xoom.com/NEC1/Default.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 19:30:08 -0500 From: Jerry (This is being cross-posted to both PRR-Talk and MerchandiseAnnounce.) I have been given the blessing of Miracle Castings to announce their FM Erie-built project. They were keeping this one kind of "hush, hush", but now the shipping date is only 2-3 weeks away! (Don't confuse this with their previously and publicly announced C-Liner project which is on-going.) As stated FM Erie-builts will ship in 2-3 weeks. These undecorated resin shells (with chassis) are designed to make use of power trucks from an Athearn PA-1. Only A units will be available at first, with B units to follow. I am told this is a Phase V version, used by the PRR, NYC, UP, ATSF, MILW, and C&NW. Miracle Castings will have more specifics on the model on their web site in a few days. In the mean time, "Merchandise Service" is accepting ADVANCE RESERVATIONS. Please visit our web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com to place an order. Special incentives are in place! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:26:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE Can't wait to see where this "subject" takes us! ;-) Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:01:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE In a message dated 2/10/99 5:55:26 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << So the bottom line I am trying to say is the Pennsy used Brunswick Green for Steam Locos and Frieght Diesels and used a Greener shade,(Dark Enamel Green) for its Passenger Diesel Fleet. I am the only one who has this opinion? or am I color blind >> To my knowledge there was only one "green" color, Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, for steam, diesel, and electric. The variations you see are (when new) due to the particular shop or locomotive builder' variance from spec, available light or reflections. The variations you see over time are due to the obvious, weathering. In addition, you may have noted some photos in Diesel books which refer to not repainting, but just giving a coat of varnish over the old paint. In talking about light, I am OK with the lighter shade on the P2K diesels only because our clubroom lighting is rather dim and the effect is about right under those circumstances. Now, when running steam, I use about 6 parts grimy black to DGLE on freighters and workhorse locos, but will use almost full strength DGLE (almost but not really black) on my T1, preferring to model it in well-cared for condition. FWIW. Again, talking about light, many months ago on this list, I mentioned that I thought the GP9 at Horseshoe had a tinge of "blue" to it. Someone probably quite correctly pointed out that that was probably a result of sky reflection and sure enough, it was a beautiful "bluebird" sky day in Pennsylvania that day. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:20:51 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR operations at Chicago Union Station In a message dated 2/10/99 3:40:43 PM Central Standard Time, rbiegaj@csc.cps.k12.il.us writes: << Passenger trains on the Panhandle Route left their line at the Bernice cutoff to switch to the Fort Wayne Route, via the South Chicago & Southern branch of the PRR, went through Englewood, and into the South Concourse at Chicago Union Station. >> Finally found my 1951 Chicago division employee timetable which also confirms the above. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 09:35:10 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] P2k BGLE What would be a commercially available paint that nail's the Brunswick Green down? Is it Scalecoat II ? I am curious about this since I will be painting a number if PRR units this spring (I hope) In regards to LL P2K units in PRR Brunswick Green, I noticed that LL produced them in a flat finish. Has anyone put a glosscoat or semi-glosscoat on these units. Whenever or glosscoat a flat paint, it tends to darken it. Has anyone done this? Ted ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE Author: Eichhorn@aol.com at Internet Date: 2/10/99 9:25 PM Can't wait to see where this "subject" takes us! ;-) Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] ERIE-builts question Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 10:02:09 -0500 From: Jerry All BP60 Centipedes were purchased for passenger service, but later downgeared and reassigned to helper service as class BH50. Some of the BP20 Sharks, also purchased for passenger service, were later reclassed for freight service as class BF20. However, in the case of the FM Erie-builts, I can find no information on such similar conversions. It appears that the same "ERIE-built" unit was purchased for both passenger (class FP20) and freight (class FF20) service. Was this indeed the case? Are these units identical, so that the new Miracle Castings shell would be appropriate for either? (I have already received several advance reservations for these new shells. Again, see http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com for promo information. Thank you.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:52:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE Rich, AMEN Brother, AMEN. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:43:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR COLORS? PRR Guys, I figured I would start that debate about the PRR DGLE just to get rid of that Brass Price Debate. I think it work. That was getting too old. I do understand the variances in the way the colors of locos look in photos, considering weathering and all the other factors. I have been painting Pennsy Loco Models for about 18 years now and always start with ScaleCoat Brunswick Green. From there it depends on what I am painting. As Bob, mentioned, I too tend to mix more black in for a Freight Engine paint job and for a Passenger, Diesel or Steam, I tend to have a slight green /black appearance. I havn't gotten any complaints from my local customers. Getting back to the real DGLE color. I have not been to Strasburg in years and years. They do have a GG-1 there on display? I know they have one in Tuscan. Do they have one in the DGLE? Is it painted in the same color as the Steam Locos on display there or is it a "Greener" color? I am curious to how the painters at Strasburg finished that GG-1. Later, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:09:55 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/11/99 The last Amtrak train used the South Chicago & Southern branch about 4 years ago. The line is now gone (to be a bicycle path) except for a short section through Hegewisch which is used by IHB for "bottle trains" and an occasional freight to the Chicago Short Line at The South Deering area. Bob Leffingwell Chicago (Hegewisch) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] ERIE-builts question Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 12:55:41 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/11/99 12:32 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: > The PRR bought only freight Erie Builts. It bought 12 ABA lashups 36 freight >A units numbered 9456A-9491A and 12 freight B units all A!A numbered (even >numbers only) from 9456B to 9478B delivered in DGLE with small, long >Pennsylvania lettered below the stripe and a red and deluxe golf Keystone >centered on either cab side and on nose between November 1947 and December >1948. I wasn't the original compositor of the data, but the "all time" database searchable roster, available on "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/diesels/, returns class FP20, Erie-builts, 12 units with numbers 9472 through 9479 inclusive for A units and each even number for a B unit. Class FF20, the purported freight version, returns 36 units, numbered 9456 through xxxx non-inclusive (omitting the FP20 numbers), again with B units for each even number up to 9470 only. Can you, or anyone, shed any light on this conflicting data? > How does one reserve these shells? E-mail me (or sales@dsop.com) with your shipping address and credit card information. See the web site for other options (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com). Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:42:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE In a word YES I am expecting the same color on the early passenger locomotives as the freight locomotives. Especially since it came out of the same drums at the paint shops. The center spread in the Keystone is an artist rendition of a locomotive and is by no means an accurate representation of the color. Prior to the adoption of the Tuscan paint color for the Passenger locomotives, the painting instruction for all locomotives were the same. The difference was in the application of one vs five stripes and the used of 3 coats of clear varnish on the passenger equpiment and gold leaf for the letter. The net effect of the application of clear varnish to the passenger locomotives was to make them more shinny and less likely to have dirt adhere to the surface. Hi- gloss passenger locomotives vs dull (relatively) freight locomotives is to be expected but not major spectral shifts in the color itself. When measured with s spectrophotometer there should be no difference. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:10:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE Gary and ALL <> I am sure glad you qualified that statement because in my opinion it is too GREEN and therefore is wrong, but then I can't the NY Yankees or the METs. Gosh this is an age old subject. I don't know what stops a guy from painting his own stuff. As I have said in my articles, I have 5 airbrushes, 2 of them are internal mix brushes, 2 are external mix brushes and they cost less than 10 bucks each. I call them my disposable brushes, but they work great, they are what I used in my latest article in Model Railroading (excuse Randy's printers lack of ability to transfer data to the written page ... my photo's best viewed on Rob Schoenberg's Web page and they are close to scale). Come on guys buy an airbrush ... and if you want to buy the "disposable brush" let me know, my first one lasted me 6 years, and I caught it on sale 6 bucks. 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:28:10 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Baldwin BS-12 A few months back some of you guys were kind enough to supply me with info for the Athearn S-12 I was tinkering with. You can now see the results on the P87 section of my web site: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/p87/home.htm Thanks again, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:23:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Erie-Builds PRR MODELERS, Just going through some back issues of the Keystone and found a short article on the FM Erie-Builds. It gives a brief chart on when these were reclassified. Some good closeup pics as well. The issue is from the Summer of 1986. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:56:47 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts (fwd) I forwarded this to my boss as I know he is into modelling the Pennsy and I have attached his observations for all to see William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:51:15 -0500 (EST) From: Blue Moon Network Administrator To: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts (fwd) Not to be a basher or cause a big ruckus, but I think it is only fair to warn you folks about what I have seen and held in my own hands. Last December 6 it was about 70 degrees here in Buffalo so I put the top down on the Cobra and drove over to Old Broadway to see what was up at Frontier Yard. While I was there I struck up a conversation with another railfan and the subject went to modeling. He just happened to have a Miracle Castings 6 Axle Shark kit with him (actually 2 I think) and was anxious to show me how poor the workmanship was. He had just received it and was heartbroken over how absolutely hideous the shell was. He had been waiting anxiously for it and his tremendous disappointment was more than obvious. The detail was awful, the finish was terrible and when you looked inside the shell you saw all kinds of "glop" all over the place. I wholeheartedly agreed with him that he'd been "ripped off" for what he paid for it. It wasn't worth the MSRP of 99.00 or even the street price of 89.00. I wouldn't have paid 30.00 for it. Only an accomplished kitbasher could have done something with it and IMHO they would be better off starting out with some relatively common B truck RF-16 shells using the hack and slash routine. It made spending 250.00+ for brass look like a good deal. Calling it a Craftsman kit is an understatement, that fellow would have been ahead of the game with sheet styrene at that point. Now I don't know if that's how the production Erie Builts will look or even if a lot of the other "BP20" sharks came off the production line like that awful shell I saw last December, but I strongly advise against placing advance reservations for the Erie Builts unless you are prepared to pay that price for a rough starting point, not something that is even remotely ready for paint. I think it is great that Miracle is doing some less common units for us modelers, but not preparing the purchaser for uncounted hours of work before the unit hits the layout is inexcusable. The look of disappointment on that poor fellows face over his "new" BP20's made me feel awful. I hope the Erie Builts come out great and Miracle has gotten past what I saw on that BP20 and will do a lot more obscure shells with good detail and finish for us. I just don't want anyone to feel that they have been duped when they get their new Erie Builts, modeling is for fun and not anguish! All I can say is "Caveat Emptor" until I see a nice current production shell from them. J. Henry Priebe Jr. Blue Moon President & Network Administrator root@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net - ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, alcoman wrote: > Dont know if you are interested in FM's or not, just an FYI > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations > alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System > x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network > http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud > bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server > > Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 19:30:08 -0500 > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts > > (This is being cross-posted to both PRR-Talk and MerchandiseAnnounce.) > > I have been given the blessing of Miracle Castings to announce their FM > Erie-built project. They were keeping this one kind of "hush, hush", but > now the shipping date is only 2-3 weeks away! (Don't confuse this with > their previously and publicly announced C-Liner project which is > on-going.) > > As stated FM Erie-builts will ship in 2-3 weeks. These undecorated resin > shells (with chassis) are designed to make use of power trucks from an > Athearn PA-1. Only A units will be available at first, with B units to > follow. I am told this is a Phase V version, used by the PRR, NYC, UP, > ATSF, MILW, and C&NW. Miracle Castings will have more specifics on the > model on their web site in a few days. > > In the mean time, "Merchandise Service" is accepting ADVANCE > RESERVATIONS. Please visit our web site at > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com to place an order. Special incentives are > in place! > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > J. Henry Priebe Jr. Blue Moon President & Network Administrator root@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net - ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:32:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] ERIE-builts question In a message dated 2/11/99 11:40:04 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << However, in the case of the FM Erie-builts, I can find no information on such similar conversions. It appears that the same "ERIE-built" unit was purchased for both passenger (class BP20) and freight (class FF20) service. Was this indeed the case? >> Jerry, The PRR bought only freight Erie Builts. It bought 12 ABA lashups 36 freight A units numbered 9456A-9491A and 12 freight B units all A!A numbered (even numbers only) from 9456B to 9478B delivered in DGLE with small, long Pennsylvania lettered below the stripe and a red and deluxe golf Keystone centered on either cab side and on nose between November 1947 and December 1948. The PRR bought 16 CFA-16 C-Liner A. Units and 8 units, all B-B, A units were numbered 9448A-9453A inclusive and from 9492A-9499A inclusive. B units were numbered 9448B-9454B and 9492B-9498B (even numbers only) inclusive. Delivered from 9/50 to 11/50 in same DGLE single stripe scheme as Erie Builts. This info is from Diesel Builders Vol. 1, Fairbanks Morse and Lima Hamilton. How does one reserve these shells? Tom Vondruska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie-Builds Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 15:07:32 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/11/99 1:23 PM, doloris mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Just going through some back issues of the Keystone and found a >short article on the FM Erie-Builds. It gives a brief chart on when >these were reclassified. Some good closeup pics as well. The issue is >from the Summer of 1986. Gary For those of use without access to that issue, does it confirm the units in passenger service as class FP20? Did they start as FP20 and move to FF20, or did they start as FF20 and move to FP20? Former most likely. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MC Erie Built Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 15:55:53 -0500 From: Jerry Miracle Castings has posted limited information on their new Erie-builts on their web site. They have also indicated a ship date of February 29. Hmmm. My calendar only goes to 28 this year! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:45:26 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts (fwd) First... > Only an accomplished kitbasher could have done > something with it and IMHO they would be better off starting out with some > relatively common B truck RF-16 shells using the hack and slash routine. It > made spending 250.00+ for brass look like a good deal. Which would have yielded an RP-20, or maybe an RP-22 if you assume the bigger Baldwin would also have gotten a larger engine. Too bad Baldwin never actually made such a thing, unless you ripped out the grids, and lowered the frame along the lower edge of the shell, a lot of work... > The detail was awful, the finish was terrible and when you looked inside the > shell you saw all kinds of "glop" all over the place. I wholeheartedly agreed > with him that he'd been "ripped off" for what he paid for it. And this was the M-C shark, and not the Trainstuff one (which I've previously heard described that way)? Is he sure? Frankly, I don't give a damn what the inside of the shell looks like (I'm not turning mine inside out, are you?), but the detail on the shells I got have detail as good as I would expect from resin, and the finish was certainly no wavier than Baldwin's sheet metalwork... Caveat preemptor, may the buyer know his product...;-) (I have no interest in Miracle Castings, I'm just a buyer of their product) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings Controversy (was Breaking News...) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 14:36:25 -0500 From: Jerry Wow! Where does one start? Henry Priebe's dissatisfaction of the Miracle Castings BP20 causes me to make two points: First, is he sure he save the Miracle Castings BP20? MC came out with their, followed almost immediately by another (was it TrainStuff, or Hobbytown, or something like that?). Anyway, the side by side comparisons made by others were dramatic. They basically said that the MC was a very nicely done model and that the other one was a piece of garbage. I just want to question whether or not the other manufacturer's version was what was actually seen. My own MC shells contained no such "glop" and had a pretty decent surface. (If Mr. Priebe wishes to contact me directly with the name of the person who had them, I can verify whether or not they purchased from "Merchandise Service", one of only three U.S. dealers for the product.) Second, online reviews of the product were decent. I sold over 30 of the units. Many of these sales were repeat customers who had already received an A unit and later purchased another A or a B unit. Why would they repeat if it were a bad product? Many of my customers have also e-mailed me with positive comments about the kit. I have yet to receive a bad comment. So what gives? I invite owners of the BP20 kit to speak up -- and freely -- and voice your honest opinions. If you consider it a "poor" kit, then I do want folks to know that. I own an ABA set and I think they are suitable. Especially in light of the options. Yes, they need some cleaning up, but so does every Bowser locomotive that I purchase...and it doesn't keep me from buying them! I am sure that the Erie-builts will be comparable to the BP20's. So, let's hear from you. On 2/11/99 12:56 PM, alcoman (alcoman@net.bluemoon.net) wrote: >I forwarded this to my boss as I know he is into modelling the Pennsy and >I have attached his observations for all to see > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:51:15 -0500 (EST) >From: Blue Moon Network Administrator >To: alcoman >Subject: Re: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts (fwd) > > >Not to be a basher or cause a big ruckus, but I think it is only fair to warn >you folks about what I have seen and held in my own hands. > >Last December 6 it was about 70 degrees here in Buffalo so I put the top down >on the Cobra and drove over to Old Broadway to see what was up at Frontier >Yard. While I was there I struck up a conversation with another railfan >and the >subject went to modeling. He just happened to have a Miracle Castings 6 Axle >Shark kit with him (actually 2 I think) and was anxious to show me how >poor the >workmanship was. He had just received it and was heartbroken over how >absolutely hideous the shell was. He had been waiting anxiously for it and >his >tremendous disappointment was more than obvious. > >The detail was awful, the finish was terrible and when you looked inside the >shell you saw all kinds of "glop" all over the place. I wholeheartedly agreed >with him that he'd been "ripped off" for what he paid for it. > >It wasn't worth the MSRP of 99.00 or even the street price of 89.00. I >wouldn't >have paid 30.00 for it. Only an accomplished kitbasher could have done >something with it and IMHO they would be better off starting out with some >relatively common B truck RF-16 shells using the hack and slash routine. It >made spending 250.00+ for brass look like a good deal. > >Calling it a Craftsman kit is an understatement, that fellow would have been >ahead of the game with sheet styrene at that point. > >Now I don't know if that's how the production Erie Builts will look or >even if >a lot of the other "BP20" sharks came off the production line like that awful >shell I saw last December, but I strongly advise against placing advance >reservations for the Erie Builts unless you are prepared to pay that price >for >a rough starting point, not something that is even remotely ready for paint. > >I think it is great that Miracle is doing some less common units for us >modelers, but not preparing the purchaser for uncounted hours of work before >the unit hits the layout is inexcusable. The look of disappointment on that >poor fellows face over his "new" BP20's made me feel awful. > >I hope the Erie Builts come out great and Miracle has gotten past what I >saw on >that BP20 and will do a lot more obscure shells with good detail and >finish for >us. > >I just don't want anyone to feel that they have been duped when they get >their >new Erie Builts, modeling is for fun and not anguish! > >All I can say is "Caveat Emptor" until I see a nice current production shell >from them. > >J. Henry Priebe Jr. Blue Moon President & Network Administrator >root@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] BGLE and Lines West Meet... Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:41:51 -0500 ***Gary, are you sure that you didn't have yer green sunglasses on, the day you saw these prr bgle psgr loco's ??? Congrats and Thanks to Tom V. for setting up The Lines West Meet !!! Maybe a few of us Eastern , ummm, snobs (?) will get to come out and see exactly what Xenia has to offer ?? Any catenary ? Any PL Signals left ? Any WaWa stores ? BTW, we did the reverse with the Erie-Lackawanna Society. They are West-End biased for their Meets, so we started a Spring North Jersey Meet also. That way everyone was happy = all that counts ! Bill****** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:19:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie-Builds Jerry, This is what the article by Roger Keyser and Chuck Blardone says. FM Locos Number 9456-9471 (16 units) and 9456B-9470B (8 units) were delivered in 11/47-3/48. they were classed FF3. In 8/13/51 they were reclassified as FF20. FM numbers 9472-9477 (6 units) and 9472B-9476B (3 units) were delivered in 6/48-9/48. They were classed FF3s. Reclassified to FP3 in 6/49, reclassified to FP20a in 8/13 and finally reclassified to FF20 in early 1953. FM Numbers 9478-9479 and 9478B were delivered in 9/48 as FF3s. On 6/49 they were reclassified to FP3. On 8/13/51 reclassified to FP20. In early 1953 they were then reclassified to FF20. FM numbers 9480-9491 912 units) were delivered in 10/48-12/48 as FF2. They were reclassified to FF20 on 8/13/51. All units were retired by th end of 1963. Assignments were the Middle Div. in 1948. They worked there way to the Panhandle and PGH divisions in 1954. Some ventured to the Buckeye Division as well in 1956-1960. Photos in the Keystone issue show the single thin stripe versions. One photo shows a pair pulling a coal drag. Hope that helps you Jerry and anyone else that does not have that issue. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Re: Miracle Castings Controversy (was Breaking News...) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 16:42:03 -0500 From: Jerry The person who "flamed" the Miracle Castings BP20 is now allowing that the model he saw "could" have been the TrainStuff BP20 and not the Miracle Castings version. See below: ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 02/11 4:51 PM Received: 02/11 4:37 PM From: Blue Moon Network Administrator, root@net.bluemoon.net To: Jerry, jerry@dsop.com CC: alcoman, alcoman@net.bluemoon.net The one I saw looked idential to the MC photos, but if there was another at the same time (early last December was when the fellow got it) possibly it was the other one. It's not easy to get a really close look when their web page only shows a small image, but the color shade of the resin appears to be identical to the raw shell I saw. I hope it isn't the Miracle unit, we need more quality small run models of some of the more obscure units at a relatively affordable price. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:39:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s In a message dated 2/9/99 11:19:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, glrea@earthlink.net writes: << Gents: Is there any talk of anyone building a good plastic N8 cabin in the near future? I know that TYCO did one many moons ago. How far off is the TYCO model, I looked at a few at the last GATS show, but it looked a little to toy-like, but much of this could be dealt with unless there is some major problem that I am not seeing. (Bowser are you out there.....) >> There is an Article in the april 1982 Model Railroader about kitbashing an N8 from two of the tyco cars. As is the Tyco car is WAY off. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Feb. 29th & Miracle Castings Controversy Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:45:19 -0500 Jerry wrote: >Subject: MC Erie Built >From: Jerry >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 15:55:53 -0500 >Miracle Castings has posted limited information on their new Erie-builts >on their web site. They have also indicated a ship date of February 29. >Hmmm. My calendar only goes to 28 this year! Actually Jerry, we here in Canada run on a different calendar, based on the life cycle of polar bears. Alright! Feb. 28! You caught me. As for the description of the shell offered in Mr.J. Henry Priebe Jr.'s e-mail, I cannot believe that anyone seeing our shell would describe it as "absolutely hideous". It is not up to the quality level of injection molded shells, but most definitely can be easily handled by most modellers with excellent results. I'm planning on e-mailing Mr. Priebe and asking him to look at our web site and tell us if it's the same shell he previously spoke about. I'm sure there'll be more discussion on this! Pat Lawless Miracle Castings ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk subjects Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:48:10 -0000 Gents: I have been back on the list for only a week now and I remember why I left the first time. It seems that the some of you feel the need to complain about what you can not afford, criticize what you can, and then in the same breath have the nerve to bitch about why more PRR specific models are not produced! The manufacturers are like dogs, if you beat them enough, they will quit coming around.... We should be VERY grateful and VERY appreciative of what is out there. I consult small businesses for a living and get to see what they go through on a daily basis. Have any of you considered the costs of tooling and planing? Ever thought that one bad review or one product failure can kill a company? This is someone's well being you are all-to-quick to comment on. Their efforts put food on tables and roofs over heads, not just the owner mind you, but all the way down to the kid who sweeps the floor at night for $4.50 an hour. Instead, how about contacting a manufacturer and being supportive? If you are really "in the know" about something why not assist and give a technical hand? You will be (and are) the customer to these people and it is in ANY businesses' best interest to do what the customer wants. Anyone can complain about it after the fact, why not be proactive and build a positive relationship between manufacturers and modelers? It would be a win-win situation as the end results could (and would) mean more of what we as modelers want and an industry that is making money. Think about it. Cordially, Garrett Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:24:24 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] ERIE-builts question Howdy All: We had this same thread running back in November - check the archives. As stated in another post - several of the FF3's were regreared to become the FP20 class - later all regreard back to freight service and changed to class FF20. One of my lists the FP-20a as having Dynamic Brakes ( 9472A-9477A and 9472B - 9476B), I believe it was Mr. Burkholder that wanted to know where the dynamic brakes were located on one - I have been unable to dig up any photographic proof of this. I have also hit a blank wall on the internal layout of an Erie built, I do have it listed on my museum search list though. Just one more project to work on! Cos wsbcos.com LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/11/99 11:40:04 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, > jerry@dsop.com writes: > > << However, in the case of the FM Erie-builts, I can find no information on > such similar conversions. It appears that the same "ERIE-built" unit was > purchased for both passenger (class BP20) and freight (class FF20) > service. Was this indeed the case? > >> > Jerry, > > The PRR bought only freight Erie Builts. It bought 12 ABA lashups 36 freight > A units numbered 9456A-9491A and 12 freight B units all A!A numbered (even > numbers only) from 9456B to 9478B delivered in DGLE with small, long > Pennsylvania lettered below the stripe and a red and deluxe golf Keystone > centered on either cab side and on nose between November 1947 and December > 1948. > The PRR bought 16 CFA-16 C-Liner A. Units and 8 units, all B-B, A units were > numbered 9448A-9453A inclusive and from 9492A-9499A inclusive. B units were > numbered 9448B-9454B and 9492B-9498B (even numbers only) inclusive. Delivered > from 9/50 to 11/50 in same DGLE single stripe scheme as Erie Builts. > This info is from Diesel Builders Vol. 1, Fairbanks Morse and Lima Hamilton. > > How does one reserve these shells? > > Tom Vondruska > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:39:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BGLE and Lines West Meet... In a message dated 2/11/99 6:29:22 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, prrsignals@adelphia.net writes: << Any catenary? Any PL Signals left? Any WaWa stores? BTW, we did the reverse with the Erie-Lackawanna Society. They are West-End biased for their Meets, so we started a Spring North Jersey Meet also. That way everyone was happy = all that counts! Bill****** Catenary, the Real Pennsylvania Railroad didn't need no stinkin' Catenary PL signals hell, we don't even have tracks, just bikepaths. There is an empty signal bridge in London, Ohio. WaWa stores, you've lost me. We don't have downtowns out here, just Walmarts on the edge of town. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:14:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie-Builds In a message dated 2/11/99 4:21:21 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Photos in the Keystone issue show the single thin stripe versions. >> The only version, to my knowledge. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:32:46 -0600 I think Jerry may have resolved this issue for us, but thought I would offer up my views anyway. Nice to know that Miracle Castings is lurking on the list. I have in front of me a Miracle Castings BP-20 A unit which I am detailing and painting for another SPF. After years of building Westerfield, Sunshine, and, yes, even Funaro & Camarlengo, it is my opinion that MC has done a fabulous job. I particularly am impressed with the crispness of the details on the shell and the design and care which went into the underframe. Well done; bring on the Erie-builts! Now that I have somebody's attention: I enjoy PRR diesels, but my real interests make a lot more smoke. What we need are accurate 90F82, 110P75, and 130P75 tenders. For the 110P75, just make it so it fits on the Bachmann tender underframe. Also R50b express reefers, since Red Caboose apparently has declined. There have also been pleadings for the N8 caboose. Wow! That seems like a lot of product for a small company to jump into. MC, are you listening? There is a serious market out here. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:58:29 EST Subject: [PRR] BP20/ MC Controvery Folks, An earlier posting gave a rather chilling account of a BP20 casting, a model so bad it was virtually unusable. I'm under some confusion: isn't there a pair of these out? From all I've heard, and judging from a photo in MR, the Miricle Castings model is quite good. And it seems Jerry has sold quite a few with no compalints from his customers. Must be a case of mistaken identity. Some bad luck too. How often do you have two models come out at the same time for a prototype no one has done before in kit form? I expect this should clear up soon, and then we can get back to the serious business of badgering MC for some more models we'd all like to see. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:48:43 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: [PRR] BGLE and Lines West Meet... They probably don't have any Tastycakes or scrapple out there either! Dick Taylor Dalbo MN (sniff) LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/11/99 6:29:22 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, > prrsignals@adelphia.net writes: > > << Any catenary? > Any PL Signals left? > Any WaWa stores? > > BTW, we did the reverse with the Erie-Lackawanna Society. They are West-End > biased for their Meets, so we started a Spring North Jersey Meet also. That > way everyone was happy = all that counts! > > Bill****** > > Catenary, the Real Pennsylvania Railroad didn't need no stinkin' Catenary > PL signals hell, we don't even have tracks, just bikepaths. There is an empty > signal bridge in London, Ohio. > WaWa stores, you've lost me. We don't have downtowns out here, just Walmarts > on the edge of town. > > Tom V. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings Controversy (was Breaking News...) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:51:23 -0500 Hello to all, I don't know what this fellow was looking at......BUT the difference between the shells from Miracle Castings and the "other company" that is making a attempted copy of something that they call a BP20......is like night and day and the day is sunny! Pat and his people have done an excellent job with the BP-20 A&B ! This fellow could not have seen your shells! I am very happy with mine and every one that I know of that have them ....love them. Keep up the great work. The Dealers that I know of are: A.B.Charles & Son ( Pittsburg, Dormont) 412-561-3068 Ken Evan Associates (Shrewsbury, Pa) 717-235-8995 Jerry's (Jerry@dsop.com) or (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) Bill (at the end of the tracks "NCR" in New Freedom,Pa.) ---------- > From: Jerry > To: alcoman ; PRR-Talk ; root@bluemoon.net > Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings Controversy (was Breaking News...) > Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:36 PM > > Wow! Where does one start? > > Henry Priebe's dissatisfaction of the Miracle Castings BP20 causes me to > make two points: > > First, is he sure he save the Miracle Castings BP20? MC came out with > their, followed almost immediately by another (was it TrainStuff, or > Hobbytown, or something like that?). Anyway, the side by side comparisons > made by others were dramatic. They basically said that the MC was a very > nicely done model and that the other one was a piece of garbage. I just > want to question whether or not the other manufacturer's version was what > was actually seen. My own MC shells contained no such "glop" and had a > pretty decent surface. (If Mr. Priebe wishes to contact me directly with > the name of the person who had them, I can verify whether or not they > purchased from "Merchandise Service", one of only three U.S. dealers for > the product.) > > Second, online reviews of the product were decent. I sold over 30 of the > units. Many of these sales were repeat customers who had already received > an A unit and later purchased another A or a B unit. Why would they > repeat if it were a bad product? Many of my customers have also e-mailed > me with positive comments about the kit. I have yet to receive a bad > comment. So what gives? > > I invite owners of the BP20 kit to speak up -- and freely -- and voice > your honest opinions. If you consider it a "poor" kit, then I do want > folks to know that. I own an ABA set and I think they are suitable. > Especially in light of the options. Yes, they need some cleaning up, but > so does every Bowser locomotive that I purchase...and it doesn't keep me > from buying them! > > I am sure that the Erie-builts will be comparable to the BP20's. So, > let's hear from you. > > On 2/11/99 12:56 PM, alcoman (alcoman@net.bluemoon.net) wrote: > > >I forwarded this to my boss as I know he is into modelling the Pennsy and > >I have attached his observations for all to see > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:51:15 -0500 (EST) > >From: Blue Moon Network Administrator > >To: alcoman > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts (fwd) > > > > > >Not to be a basher or cause a big ruckus, but I think it is only fair to warn > >you folks about what I have seen and held in my own hands. > > > >Last December 6 it was about 70 degrees here in Buffalo so I put the top down > >on the Cobra and drove over to Old Broadway to see what was up at Frontier > >Yard. While I was there I struck up a conversation with another railfan > >and the > >subject went to modeling. He just happened to have a Miracle Castings 6 Axle > >Shark kit with him (actually 2 I think) and was anxious to show me how > >poor the > >workmanship was. He had just received it and was heartbroken over how > >absolutely hideous the shell was. He had been waiting anxiously for it and > >his > >tremendous disappointment was more than obvious. > > > >The detail was awful, the finish was terrible and when you looked inside the > >shell you saw all kinds of "glop" all over the place. I wholeheartedly agreed > >with him that he'd been "ripped off" for what he paid for it. > > > >It wasn't worth the MSRP of 99.00 or even the street price of 89.00. I > >wouldn't > >have paid 30.00 for it. Only an accomplished kitbasher could have done > >something with it and IMHO they would be better off starting out with some > >relatively common B truck RF-16 shells using the hack and slash routine. It > >made spending 250.00+ for brass look like a good deal. > > > >Calling it a Craftsman kit is an understatement, that fellow would have been > >ahead of the game with sheet styrene at that point. > > > >Now I don't know if that's how the production Erie Builts will look or > >even if > >a lot of the other "BP20" sharks came off the production line like that awful > >shell I saw last December, but I strongly advise against placing advance > >reservations for the Erie Builts unless you are prepared to pay that price > >for > >a rough starting point, not something that is even remotely ready for paint. > > > >I think it is great that Miracle is doing some less common units for us > >modelers, but not preparing the purchaser for uncounted hours of work before > >the unit hits the layout is inexcusable. The look of disappointment on that > >poor fellows face over his "new" BP20's made me feel awful. > > > >I hope the Erie Builts come out great and Miracle has gotten past what I > >saw on > >that BP20 and will do a lot more obscure shells with good detail and > >finish for > >us. > > > >I just don't want anyone to feel that they have been duped when they get > >their > >new Erie Builts, modeling is for fun and not anguish! > > > >All I can say is "Caveat Emptor" until I see a nice current production shell > >from them. > > > >J. Henry Priebe Jr. Blue Moon President & Network Administrator > >root@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:50:34 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] BGLE and Lines West Meet... You have TOWNS??? How about UPtowns?? Steve B. LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > > Catenary, the Real Pennsylvania Railroad didn't need no stinkin' Catenary > PL signals hell, we don't even have tracks, just bikepaths. There is an empty > signal bridge in London, Ohio. > WaWa stores, you've lost me. We don't have downtowns out here, just Walmarts > on the edge of town. > > Tom V. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:18:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts (fwd) From: Patrick M Egan This discription of a Miracle Castings Baldwin 2000 HP passenger unit shell does not correspond in the slightest to the excellent kit that I received last November. I took the kit to the model railroad club that I belong to, which has far more critical people than me. They uniformly felt that it was an excellent piece of work, and one GM&O and Rock Island fan started to ponder how to justify having one. (They'd look great in Rock colors.) I thought enough of it to order a B unit. Pat Egan (no web access) On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:56:47 -0500 (EST) alcoman writes: >I forwarded this to my boss as I know he is into modelling the Pennsy >and >I have attached his observations for all to see > >William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations >alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System > >x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network >http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud >bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server > >Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:51:15 -0500 (EST) >From: Blue Moon Network Administrator >To: alcoman >Subject: Re: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts (fwd) > > >Not to be a basher or cause a big ruckus, but I think it is only fair >to warn >you folks about what I have seen and held in my own hands. > >Last December 6 it was about 70 degrees here in Buffalo so I put the >top down >on the Cobra and drove over to Old Broadway to see what was up at >Frontier >Yard. While I was there I struck up a conversation with another >railfan and the >subject went to modeling. He just happened to have a Miracle Castings >6 Axle >Shark kit with him (actually 2 I think) and was anxious to show me how >poor the >workmanship was. He had just received it and was heartbroken over how >absolutely hideous the shell was. He had been waiting anxiously for it >and his >tremendous disappointment was more than obvious. > >The detail was awful, the finish was terrible and when you looked >inside the >shell you saw all kinds of "glop" all over the place. I wholeheartedly >agreed >with him that he'd been "ripped off" for what he paid for it. > >It wasn't worth the MSRP of 99.00 or even the street price of 89.00. I >wouldn't >have paid 30.00 for it. Only an accomplished kitbasher could have done >something with it and IMHO they would be better off starting out with >some >relatively common B truck RF-16 shells using the hack and slash >routine. It >made spending 250.00+ for brass look like a good deal. > >Calling it a Craftsman kit is an understatement, that fellow would >have been >ahead of the game with sheet styrene at that point. > >Now I don't know if that's how the production Erie Builts will look or >even if >a lot of the other "BP20" sharks came off the production line like >that awful >shell I saw last December, but I strongly advise against placing >advance >reservations for the Erie Builts unless you are prepared to pay that >price for >a rough starting point, not something that is even remotely ready for >paint. > >I think it is great that Miracle is doing some less common units for >us >modelers, but not preparing the purchaser for uncounted hours of work >before >the unit hits the layout is inexcusable. The look of disappointment on >that >poor fellows face over his "new" BP20's made me feel awful. > >I hope the Erie Builts come out great and Miracle has gotten past what >I saw on >that BP20 and will do a lot more obscure shells with good detail and >finish for >us. > >I just don't want anyone to feel that they have been duped when they >get their >new Erie Builts, modeling is for fun and not anguish! > >All I can say is "Caveat Emptor" until I see a nice current production >shell >from them. > >J. Henry Priebe Jr. Blue Moon President & Network Administrator >root@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System >X2 & K56flex Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network >http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD >bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net - ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC >Server > > >On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, alcoman wrote: > >> Dont know if you are interested in FM's or not, just an FYI >> >> William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations >> alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System > >> x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network >> http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud >> bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC >Server >> >> Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net > >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 19:30:08 -0500 >> From: Jerry >> To: PRR-Talk >> Subject: [PRR] Breaking News: FM Erie-builts >> >> (This is being cross-posted to both PRR-Talk and >MerchandiseAnnounce.) >> >> I have been given the blessing of Miracle Castings to announce their >FM >> Erie-built project. They were keeping this one kind of "hush, hush", >but >> now the shipping date is only 2-3 weeks away! (Don't confuse this >with >> their previously and publicly announced C-Liner project which is >> on-going.) >> >> As stated FM Erie-builts will ship in 2-3 weeks. These undecorated >resin >> shells (with chassis) are designed to make use of power trucks from >an >> Athearn PA-1. Only A units will be available at first, with B units >to >> follow. I am told this is a Phase V version, used by the PRR, NYC, >UP, >> ATSF, MILW, and C&NW. Miracle Castings will have more specifics on >the >> model on their web site in a few days. >> >> In the mean time, "Merchandise Service" is accepting ADVANCE >> RESERVATIONS. Please visit our web site at >> http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com to place an order. Special >incentives are >> in place! >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com >> "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ >> Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >> Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station >Products >> and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >> See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at >http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> >> > > >J. Henry Priebe Jr. Blue Moon President & Network Administrator >root@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System >X2 & K56flex Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network >http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD >bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net - ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC >Server > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Other Model Projects Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 05:57:12 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/11/99 11:32 PM, Stephen Hoxie (steveh@dotstar.net) wrote: >Now that I have somebody's attention: I enjoy PRR diesels, but my real >interests make a lot more smoke. What we need are accurate 90F82, 110P75, >and 130P75 tenders. For the 110P75, just make it so it fits on the Bachmann >tender underframe. Also R50b express reefers, since Red Caboose apparently >has declined. There have also been pleadings for the N8 caboose. Wow! >That seems like a lot of product for a small company to jump into. MC, are >you listening? There is a serious market out here. I agree that these all need done. However, I suggest we allow MC to build as they deem appropriate and we stay off their backs. It would be nice for them to build everything, but this was the trap that blew a company called Liberty Model Productions right off the PRR map! They are still in business, but limited (according to their web site) to steel plant cars. MC has done us a great service by coming out with BP20's and now Erie-builts, with C-Liners already announced. Let them get one model out at a time. They DO watch this list, have the results of our "needs" surveys, and do pay attention to them. They will not blindly say "Gee, I think we'll do an F7 next..."! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:14:25 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] no track? Hmmmm - - > Catenary, the Real Pennsylvania Railroad didn't need no stinkin' Catenary > PL signals hell, we don't even have tracks, just bikepaths. > >Tom V Gee, Tom, I have an old piece of Atlas flex track I can donate, if that would help - - - Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:09:58 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin BS-12 >A few months back some of you guys were kind enough to supply me with >info for the Athearn S-12 I was tinkering with. >You can now see the results on the P87 section of my web site: > >http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/p87/home.htm Booooteeeeefull John!!!! Also, I reccomend your web pages on turnout construction to the group...made me want to go right back home and start soldering! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Erie Built Dynamic Brakes Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:21:42 -0500 Hi All! Wayne wrote: >I believe it was Mr. >Burkholder that wanted to know where the dynamic brakes were located on one >I have been unable to dig up any photographic proof of this. I have solved this particular question (thank goodness, since I'm making a model of this unit!). The grill work for the dynamic brakes appeared on the right side of the unit, on the roof. It consists of several small square grills that are flanking a long metal plate, which also has several small grills set into its ends. Anyone with a copy of the Locomotive Cyclopedia Vol. 2 (Model Railroader) can see them faintly in the photo of the A-B-A lash up of Santa Fe units on Page 80. Also, anyone with a good magazine collection can see a plan of this in the Sept. 1976 issue of RMC, Page 66. RMC also had an excellent article on the Eries in Oct. 1975. There are, however, some contradictions in the descriptions and plans of the "Phase V" Erie that they give in this article. In the article, it states that the Phase V unit didn't have the recessed areas at the back of the unit where the handrails attached. The plan omits them, but photos of Santa Fe units (which were supposedly Phase V) clearly shows the recesses were present! Any photos I have seen of PRR Eries don't appear to have the recesses, yet they were all Phase V units as well. I'm assuming railroads simply ordered their preferences in this regard. The shell we're making will simply contain the necessary parts to model either type. Does anyone have photos that show a PRR unit WITH the recesses? I'd appreciate hearing from you if you do... By the way, I'd like to thank everyone who sent in their kind comments about our Shark model. We really do appreciate the support, and hope that our future models will receive the same kind of appreciation that the Shark has. I think everyone is going to like the Eries! Regards, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:43:49 PST If you can find the earlier Mantua version of the "streamline" caboose, use it for your kitbash. Better plastic and a metal underframe (very hard metal, in fact--hard to work with, but a good base for the model). If you have an Xacto miter box aand a large razor saw, you are in business. Study the N8 drawings/photos, and you can see by making two cuts and re-attaching the pieces, you will have the cupola centerd and the large windows properly positioned. Patch the smaller window, and you got it. If you are really serious, you will add roofwalks with circular hole pattern treadplate, the induction antenna (Cal Scale kit), maybe even applying some of Gloor Craft's Pennsy cabin steps, which are slightly angled outward, I believe, and add to the prototype appearance. Build up the crash resistant end railing assembly, dip it in dirty Tuscan, and put her in service. Be careful about using magazine articles on this kitbash. I recall two, one of them was in error as to the re-assembled body, with incorrect drawings. Always use a good photo or two of the real thing. Andrew Harmantas, doing the SPF bit here in Tidewater Virginia ____________________________________ > Is there any talk of anyone building a good plastic N8 cabin in the near > future? I know that TYCO did one many moons ago. How far off is the TYCO ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:40:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BGLE and Lines West Meet... n a message dated 2/11/99 11:51:16 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, sbartlet@capecod.net writes: << You have TOWNS??? How about UPtowns?? Steve B. >> No up towns, we're in the flatlands. Never quite figured out why we have DOWNtowns. But hey, Xenia had a railroad (Little Miami RR's railhead reached Xenia in August 1845) before there was Pennsylvania Railroad (chartered April 1846) and it was part of a cross state line (Sandusky to Springfield on the Mad River & Lake Erie, Springfield to Cincinnati on the LMRR, LMRR completed 1846, MR&LE completed 1847) when t back in Pennsylvania they were still trying to figure out how this newfangled locomotive was going to pull canal boats over the Alleghenies when nobody had invented the outlet to plug the catenary into. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR-Talk subjects Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:25:33 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Garrett Rea Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:48 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk subjects Garrett, I pretty much agree with what you said. However, FYI some of us have contacted manufacturers and quite frankly some of them don't want assistance, some even ignore information when it is provided. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] P2k BGLE Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:48:08 -0500 Hi guys... At least life like has gotten better with the color since the FA's were released! Last time I talked with a LL rep about their color at a train show, they said they made it a bit lighter to account for the subdued lighting on most model layouts... As for getting undec units, the only problem is getting paint to stick to the engineering plastic parts... I wish they'd do undecorated units in darker colors also. That way when the paint flakes off it wouldn't look that bad! I've had good results starting with a PRR unit, wet sanding off most of the lettering and repainting a better shade right over the factory paint. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > SUVCWORR@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:28 PM > To: CENTGA@aol.com; PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE > > > In a message dated 2/9/99 11:20:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, > CENTGA@aol.com > writes: > > > Since we're on the topic of Proto locomotives, I think that LL > is hung up on > > painting PRR locomotives BGLE ( Bright Green Loco Enamel ). I > don't ever > > recall this being discussed, am I the only one who thinks this > way? Todd > > Horton > > > > Todd: > > No, you are not. After seeing the first PK2 PRR DGLE locomotive, > I refused to > buy decorated units. It is total incomprehensible how LL could > produce this > color when they were given copies of the drift cards. Seem like a case of > simple arrogance on the part of LL. "They'll buy it no matter > what color it > is." The only way to force a correct color is for all PRR > modelers to forego > the decorated versions. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:31:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s In a message dated 2/12/99 9:48:33 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: << Maybe even applying some of Gloor Craft's Pennsy cabin steps, which are slightly angled outward, I believe, and add to the prototype appearance. B >> In his 1990 mainline modeler article, Ed Martin fabricated the N8 steps. For my update of this article, I'll be using Gloor Craft's N6 steps cut to size. I'd also suggest using the N5/N5C collision post/ladder/end railing assembly. Andy, I'm going to have to check some photos. I thought it was circular like the N5C but Ed sez it's rectangular. Either way Plano's probably got the pattern in stock, If you're really going to do it right, sand the body smooth and clip off the "ears" from the car body ends and laminate .005" styrene with the rivet pattern embossed on it on the side and ends- Champ has keystone on the ball (CK to everyone but Greg Martin), Shadow Key and Plain Key schemes. Middle Division and Walthers, SK and PK only. Tracings with proper dimensions can be downloaded from Rob Schoenberg's web site, prr.railfan.net/index.html Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:44:10 EST Subject: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s In a message dated 2/12/99 8:48:33 AM Central Standard Time, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: << dip it in dirty Tuscan >> I'll buy dirty freight car color :-) Incidently, isn't the ladder and corresponding roofwalk extension on the wrong side? Unfortunately, I don't have my old Mantua cabin cars handy to compare. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Because Bruce Said "Make It So!" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 13:40:23 -0500 From: Jerry Saddened upon hearing of Bruce (Smith's) recent impairment -- including application for disability benefits -- I decided to do something about it...because I care! If you didn't hear, lately Bruce has been heavily using the searchable databases on "Keystone Crossings" ("PRR-Talk" archives, cabin car roster, diesel loco roster, site search, SPF's, etc.). Anyway, at the top of the Search Results page are navigation buttons to take you to the next and previous pages of results when a lot of hits are returned. Bruce, like many power users, was asking the database to return large numbers of records per page. So, he would scroll down, down, and on down the page to view all of the results. When he wanted to then view the next (or previous) page of results...he'd have to scroll all the way back to the top of the page to the navigation buttons! This put a tremendous strain on his mind, caused inflamation of the tendons in his hands, wore out his mouse pad, and didn't do much for his arthritis either. To prevent others from become mental vegetables from such repetitive activities, I have duplicated the navigation areas on the results pages so that they appear both at the TOP and the BOTTOM of the results table. Thanks to Bruce for the suggestion, who is fine, by the way! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:38:02 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] no track? Hmmmm - - I have a couple of old bikes.... Steve B. (again) Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > Gee, Tom, I have an old piece of Atlas flex track I can donate, if that > would help - - - > > Bob > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Model manufacturers = deaf ear sometimes ??? Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:30:29 -0500 ***While I agree in general with Garrett's post, my experiences differ. Over the past several YEARS, our group has provided and encouraged the G scale manufacturers to produce loco's with Authentic road numbers, to little avail ! USA Trains /Charley Ro got most right, and blew the PRR Geep # badly. The information was provided and is out there, they are, ummm, not concerned ??? We begged for one of his great EMD NW-2 loco's in several other Roads, and provided actual proto pix, numbers, etc. So far, not done. The one request that did get done: A CNJ NW2, butt in newer ( and incorrect ) version, "Red Baron" ( ahem ) scheme, with the wrong Herald !? ( JCL versus CRRofNJ )...geesh,, how frustrating !! I personnally sent in pix of unit in Green with a good # 1060-61. I met with C. Ro about this, and Charley told me in person. " The green looked Blah !" For the 'toy' folks, the red baron ( ahem ) version is "Prettier". Okay, so do the red, but get it correct ! Nope.... Our point is an accurate number / model costs NO MORE than an inaccurate one. The scale folks will be pleased, the toy folks do not care / know better. Aristo craft / Polk finally fulfilled their CNJ RS3 ( as per 1990 catalog !!!) this year. Green / yellow stripes, available now thanks to a lot of Pushing from our group ! But, the road number was almost dislexxed from 1546 into 1564 ( no good !). Only an accidental check up call from one of us , and a last minute emergency call to China got it fixed !!!! Geesh !!!! So, Garrett ( and wally...) it takes a lot of time and energy to get these folks interested, and then follow-through to see that it is "on track". My feelings, thx, bill***** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] BP20/ MC Controvery Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:56:23 -0500 > How often do you have two models come out at the same time for a > prototype no one has done before in kit form? > You mean like when Stewart, Atlas, and MDC all came out with HO RS3s at the same time? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:55:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Brass Caboose? PRR Modelers, I read an ad in a back issue of either Model Railroader or RMC that a small company was planning on importing Brass models of the Pennsy ND BOBBER Cabosses. I put my reservation in for one right after I seen the ad. The cost for an unpainted one was $59.99 I believe. A few weeks went by after that date and I recieved an email from the importer, his name is Randolph. He advised me that due to poor advanced orders the project would be canceled. About a month ago he emailed me back letting me know that they worked out a deal with the manufacturer that they would make enough to fill the reservations that they did recieve. Well, today Randolph emailed me again stating the models are or will be done soon. They will make 40 of them. 30 are already spoken for. So I suggest that if you want one of these Cabin Cars you better email him today. He said he was off to the Far East next week, I suppose to pick them up. Now all you people that were complaining about the high cost of Brass Models here is one for you. At $59.99 + shipping what do you have to complain about there? I will check the Model Railroader ad for this new company's name and will get right back on this list and type it in for you. Here is the email address to get in touch with Randolph for any questions or reservation info. ricvhsnj@ix.netcom.com Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:32:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s Bob, You're so right about the molded-on roofwalk and ladder platforms. You have to cut it off and file it smooth and fill in the underside. And Mantua metal underframe? I've looked for one since I read Ed Martin's N8 kitbash in Mainline Modeler and I haven't found one in 8 years. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:22:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Brass Caboose email address PRR Modelers, In an earlier message I posted here I believe I made a typo in the email address I gave out. The correct one is rlcvhsnj@ix.netcom.com Sorry for the little error. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:04:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Brass Caboose info PRR Modelers, I found that company name and more info on the ND Cain Car I mentioned about in my earlier message. The Company name is THE BRASS WORKS. The email I gave you to reach this comany maybe Randolphs home address. They list another one for the company. They can be reached at the following address. sales@brassmodel.com The Model Railroader issue this ad is located in is Dec. 1998 on page 190. Please read my previous message to get the other facts. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:26:25 PST And Mantua metal >underframe? I've looked for one since I read Ed Martin's N8 kitbash in>Mainline Modeler and I haven't found one in 8 years. ______________________________ Consider yourself lucky. The metal must have been hardened beyond belief to the point it has hardly workable. I much prefer using the pastic underframe jobbies, since much of the cast-on blobs are going to be removed and replaced with better-looking stuff anyway. Since the equipment box, brake gear, steps, and draft gear are going to be replaced, why ask for trouble with a metal underframe? I've done it both ways, and much prefer the all plastic version. Andrew Harmantas, doing the SPF thing near C&O Milepost FM Zero. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:19:12 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Lines west, No track, Hmmmm Growing up as I did in southwestern PA, I have no personal knowledge of events in the East, let alone such far-away places as Philadelphia and Balmer. I am told, though, that at one time a number of rubber-tired switchers were used in various fabled seaports in the East. Could it be that these were former Lines West road power, demoted to shifter duty when the bicycles took over the trackless expanses of the far West? Inquiring mind want something or other. I forget what. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:25:59 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] N-8 Hello Folks.... As some of you know i did the pilot model(master) for Liberty Model Productions....Although nothing has come of it yet...Joe Zappa (as of today) still is planning on coming out with this cabin car. How or when is anyones guess. I relayed to Brian what i did to produce this model for Liberty. I was indeed lucky in the fact that i found two of the old metal underframes....And yes they are really-really hard to find. I believe these underframes are from the first run of Tyco's car. But i can't confirm this. And yes they are hard to work with,but worth it for the final end model. I had to also modify it so it would take Kadee No. 5 couplers and trucks that were correct for this car. Also for those thinking of bashing some of these cars...the older body is better for detail. Pay attention to the cupola windows. The older bodies have better detail around the cupola windows. You also have to be very careful where you cut the roof away from the body. While in the old RMC article they simply cut what was needed to correct the cupola spacing, I cut the whole roof off for Liberty's pilot model so it could be built like the cabin cars Bowser makes. Bowser end rails were (are) used,but modified for this car. The Cal-Scale Train Phone antenna made for the Bowser cars are very close but if i remember right are either a little too high or too low at the top of the cupola. There were multiple modifications i did and i would'nt go into them here...but basically it came out as a very credible model. And then there is the K-5 i did...but thats another story. You all have fun Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] Toy vs. model market Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:45:20 -0000 Sir: >Over the past several YEARS, our group has provided and encouraged the G >scale manufacturers to produce loco's with Authentic road numbers, to little >avail ! The toy train market has a different point of view than the model market. Durability is what is key here, along what will sell. How many narrow gauge GPs were ever made to begin with? Until recently, Lehmann were the only ones getting it right, but the German prototype stuff had no identity, thus slow in US toy sales. Mark it with the roads that the parents that were buying the stuff knew as kids....boom sales take off, even if it is based off of a Krauss prototype locomotive that Colorado Southern never owned to begin with! I was first told this by two different G scale vendors that are no longer in business, i.e., further enhancing the issue regarding toy train sales. The people building models have an inerest in doing things right, or at least, should. Garrett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:18:22 PST >Incidently, isn't the ladder and corresponding roofwalk extension on the wrong >side ___________________________ Yes, one the Mantua and TYCO "streamline" caboose, I believe the ladder and roofwalk extensions are on the incorrect side from that of the prototype. Just more stuff to remove, fill and relocate. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:57:23 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins/Diesels/B60s --On Friday, February 12, 1999, 1:44 PM +0000 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Incidently, isn't the ladder and corresponding roofwalk extension on the wrong > side? Given that the PRR deliberately and sadistically designed everything they owned with a view to the future frustration of model railroaders, almost certainly, YES. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:27:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BGLE and Lines West Meet... Dick, Beleive it or not, at one time, about a year ago, Rainbow Foods in the Twin Cities actually had a display full of Tastycakes ! I bought about a hundred bucks worth, and some cream soda in a bottle and had at it. For a while it was like sitting on the stoop in Fishtown, at least if I tried. And the Red Owl market on Lake Street & Hiawatha Ave in south Minneapolis used to carry scapple time to time. Been years and years for that though. An Ortliebs would go good now and again too, with a Pennsy tape on the tube. Ah, the good life! Barry Peltier St. Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:08:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Mike Bradley Responds to H40/H41 Question In a message dated 2/7/99 10:22:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ShenangoRS writes: > Rick, > > I've been following your posts for the last couple of days which prompted me > to look through my Pennsy freight car slides. As a result, I have found the > following: > > H40 PRR 260445 Holidaysburg, PA (latest simplified scheme) > H40 PRR 261454 Pittsburgh, PA (earlier PENNSYLVANIA spelled out) > H40 PRR 261445 Leetsdale, PA (earlier PENNSYLVANIA spelled out) > H40 PRR 260441 Holidaysburg, PA (latest simplified scheme) > H40 PRR 261446 Rochester, PA (earlier PENNSYLVANIA spelled out) > H40 PRR 260437 Holidaysburg, PA (latest simplified scheme) > H40 PRR 261419 Holidaysburg, PA (latest simplified scheme w/triangular > gussets) > H40 PRR 261410 Holidaysburg, PA (latest simplified scheme w/triangular > gussets) > H40 PRR 261444 Conway Yard, PA (earlier PENNSYLVANIA spelled out) > H40 PRR 261388 Youngstown, OH (latest simplified scheme) > H41 PRR 50015 Conway Yard, PA (GACX Reporting Marks with Keystone in > next to last panel- GATX DIAFLO triangular herald in 2nd panel from left) > Mike, Many thanks for your confirmation of data out of your slides. Notice the curse of orders 2 and 3 in the H40's still stands: 261444, 261445, 261446, 261454 in SK2b are first order; both the 7" PRR and the 7" numbers are "plain gothic". 260437, 260441, 260445 in PK are fourth order; the PRR is in a bold gothic. 261388, 261410, 261419 in PK and triangular gussets (fifth order); again, the PRR is in a bold gothic. Technically, GACX 50015 was part of a 1959 term lease to the PRR. On page 71 of PRR Color Guide 2, Ian Fischer describes this lease from GATX as 18 covered hoppers, and shows their existing lettering supplemented by the PRR SK monogram. Three interesting points: 1. Though not PRR cars, their movement WAS PRR-controlled. 2. The SK monogram (and only the monogram) did follow the current PRR specification for covered hopper lettering. This is right where the monogram would go on the first H41 order 2 years later. You can compare this use of a railroad's herald on a leased car with the use of NYC or IC or Lackawanna heralds on a leased MDT reefer, or a Frisco or CNJ herald on North American cars (NIRX and NJDX), or a Milwaukee Road herald on URTX reefers. Historically, there have been many examples (freight car list, help me out here). 3. According to Ian, the 2 PRR orders of H41's were 16 cars in 1961. I've learned that it's dangerous to make any assumptions about leases vs. purchase contracts or "equipment trusts", so I can only say these cars were "acquired" from General American. Anyway, it appeared the PRR controlled a fleet of 34 Dry-Flos, but only 16 of them were H41's and carried the PRR reporting mark. Dare we assume the earlier cars retained their GACX identity? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines west, No track, Hmmmm Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:23:55 -0500 Ah....Sweet ole Bob, Yes there were rubber tired switchers on the streets of Balmer! They did most of the switching at night, due to the traffic problems....( It saved on fenders!) Don't think that they were from the west........as they were clean! Couldn't be from Pittsburg, as they wern't covered with steel mill soot. And they wouldn't be much good in the coal fields of Ohio, let along the lake port of Chi town. ( well maybe Chi town) Bill PS: you did get Balmer ( Baltimore) correct! ---------- > From: robert netzlof > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Lines west, No track, Hmmmm > Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 3:19 PM > > Growing up as I did in southwestern PA, I have no > personal knowledge of events in the East, let alone > such far-away places as Philadelphia and Balmer. > > I am told, though, that at one time a number of > rubber-tired switchers were used in various fabled > seaports in the East. Could it be that these were > former Lines West road power, demoted to shifter duty > when the bicycles took over the trackless expanses of > the far West? > > Inquiring mind want something or other. I forget what. > > === > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:50:13 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Built Dynamic Brakes --------------D1909AC788283CE7CAB3B9EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Miracle Castings, aka Pat Lawless. One less project. However, now knowing what to look for, I find the almost complete lack of overhead shots (Don Woods' trainmen strike photo excluded), very frustrating. In Dons' photo we can see the roof tops of 4 Eire builts. The clearest one appears to be 9486. This unit has a very clean roof top, however, the other three have the little indents and grills on them. You can clearly make them out on the A and B unit next to the BP20s. The B unit attached to the 9486 also has them, although they are hard to make out. Also check out the photo of 9467 on page 275 of Pennsy Power II, you can see what appears to be the same kind of gills as in the Dons' photo. The 9491 on the preceding page does not appear to have the grill work on it. So maybe from this we can say that the early units had dynamic brakes and the later ones did not. I am not ready to make that broad a statement. More input needed...... "The game is a foot" cos just call me Sherlock Jr.! wsbcos.com Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > Hi All! > > Wayne wrote: > > >I believe it was Mr. > >Burkholder that wanted to know where the dynamic brakes were located on > one >I have been unable to dig up any photographic proof of this. > > I have solved this particular question (thank goodness, since I'm making a > model of this unit!). The grill work for the dynamic brakes appeared on the > right side of the unit, on the roof. It consists of several small square > grills that are flanking a long metal plate, which also has several small > grills set into its ends. Anyone with a copy of the Locomotive Cyclopedia > Vol. 2 (Model Railroader) can see them faintly in the photo of the A-B-A > lash up of Santa Fe units on Page 80. Also, anyone with a good magazine > collection can see a plan of this in the Sept. 1976 issue of RMC, Page 66. > RMC also had an excellent article on the Eries in Oct. 1975. There are, > however, some contradictions in the descriptions and plans of the "Phase V" > Erie that they give in this article. In the article, it states that the > Phase V unit didn't have the recessed areas at the back of the unit where > the handrails attached. The plan omits them, but photos of Santa Fe units > (which were supposedly Phase V) clearly shows the recesses were present! > Any photos I have seen of PRR Eries don't appear to have the recesses, yet > they were all Phase V units as well. I'm assuming railroads simply ordered > their preferences in this regard. The shell we're making will simply > contain the necessary parts to model either type. Does anyone have photos > that show a PRR unit WITH the recesses? I'd appreciate hearing from you if > you do... By the way, I'd like to thank everyone who sent in their kind > comments about our Shark model. We really do appreciate the support, and > hope that our future models will receive the same kind of appreciation that > the Shark has. I think everyone is going to like the Eries! Regards, > > Pat Lawless > Miracle Castings > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------D1909AC788283CE7CAB3B9EB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Miracle Castings, aka Pat Lawless.
One less project.  However, now knowing what to look for,  I find the almost complete lack of overhead shots (Don Woods' trainmen strike photo excluded), very frustrating.   In Dons' photo we can see the roof tops of 4 Eire builts.  The clearest one appears to be 9486.  This unit has a very clean roof top, however, the other three have the little indents and grills on them.  You can clearly make them out on the A and B unit  next to the BP20s.   The B unit attached to the 9486 also has them, although they are hard to make out.
Also check out the photo of 9467 on page 275 of Pennsy Power II, you can see what appears to be the same kind of gills as in the Dons' photo.  The 9491 on the preceding page does not appear to have the grill work on it.   So maybe from this we can say that the early units had dynamic brakes and the later ones did not.  I am not ready to make that broad a statement.  More input needed......

"The game is a foot"

cos   just call me Sherlock Jr.!
wsbcos.com
 
 

Miracle Castings Inc. wrote:

Hi All!

Wayne wrote:

>I believe it was Mr.
>Burkholder  that wanted to know where the dynamic brakes were located on
one  >I have been unable to dig up any photographic proof of this.

I have solved this particular question (thank goodness, since I'm making a
model of this unit!).  The grill work for the dynamic brakes appeared on the
right side of the unit, on the roof.  It consists of several small square
grills that are flanking a long metal plate, which also has several small
grills set into its ends.  Anyone with a copy of the Locomotive Cyclopedia
Vol. 2 (Model Railroader) can see them faintly in the photo of the A-B-A
lash up of Santa Fe units on Page 80. Also, anyone with a good magazine
collection can see a plan of this in the Sept. 1976 issue of RMC, Page 66.
RMC also had an excellent article on the Eries in Oct. 1975.  There are,
however, some contradictions in the descriptions and plans of the "Phase V"
Erie that they give in this article.  In the article, it states that the
Phase V unit didn't have the recessed areas at the back of the unit where
the handrails attached.  The plan omits them, but photos of Santa Fe units
(which were supposedly Phase V) clearly shows the recesses were present!
Any photos I have seen of PRR Eries don't appear to have the recesses, yet
they were all Phase V units as well.  I'm assuming railroads simply ordered
their preferences in this regard.  The shell we're making will simply
contain the necessary parts to model either type.  Does anyone have photos
that show a PRR unit WITH the recesses?  I'd appreciate hearing from you if
you do... By the way, I'd like to thank everyone who sent in their kind
comments about our Shark model.  We really do appreciate the support, and
hope that our future models will receive the same kind of appreciation that
the Shark has.   I think everyone is going to like the Eries!  Regards,

Pat Lawless
Miracle Castings

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  --------------D1909AC788283CE7CAB3B9EB-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:14:10 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Built Dynamic Brakes On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Thanks Miracle Castings, aka Pat Lawless. > One less project. However, now knowing what to look for, I find the almost > complete lack of overhead shots (Don Woods' trainmen strike photo excluded), > very frustrating. I've found this to be true in general, especially of rare units. In my own photography of current units I'm guilty of it as well; You'd think sitting on the bridge at the south (railroad east) end of Conway, or one of the ones near Irwin or Greensburg that I often watch from, I'd do better on that. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Erie built dynamic brakes Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:48:27 -0500 Hi Wayne! I don't have the books you're describing there, but I wondered if all of the photos you're talking about show the right side of the unit or not. The dynamics would only be visible on the right side. If there were no dynamics, the holes where the grills were would be covered by riveted plates. Can anyone else help us with more on this? Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Built Dynamic Brakes From: "Wayne S. Betty" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:50:13 -0500 --------------D1909AC788283CE7CAB3B9EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Miracle Castings, aka Pat Lawless. One less project. However, now knowing what to look for, I find the almost complete lack of overhead shots (Don Woods' trainmen strike photo excluded), very frustrating. In Dons' photo we can see the roof tops of 4 Eire builts. The clearest one appears to be 9486. This unit has a very clean roof top, however, the other three have the little indents and grills on them. You can clearly make them out on the A and B unit next to the BP20s. The B unit attached to the 9486 also has them, although they are hard to make out. Also check out the photo of 9467 on page 275 of Pennsy Power II, you can see what appears to be the same kind of gills as in the Dons' photo. The 9491 on the preceding page does not appear to have the grill work on it. So maybe from this we can say that the early units had dynamic brakes and the later ones did not. I am not ready to make that broad a statement. More input needed...... "The game is a foot" cos just call me Sherlock Jr.! wsbcos.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:24:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Built Dynamic Brakes According to the "High Watermark" Diesel roster as of December 15, 1960 compiled by W. D. Volkmer and published in Pennsy Diesel Years Vol. 1 pg 154-159, all of PRR Erie builts had dynamic brakes. Also, all of the C-liners had dynamics. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:48:39 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie built dynamic brakes --------------66F6E9DEF5FACC3ED3A63180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy Pat and everybody else: Just to continue on a bit, the Don Wood photo in Pennsy Power II clearly shows the roof tops of two A units and two B units. Only 1 of the A units has the grills, while both of the B units have them. Other photos or Right/engineer side show these same grills. It appears that the early units had dynamic brakes, while the later ones did not. In Jim Boyd's book Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives in Color, relatively few photos of a top down right side Eire builts. Maybe I'll have to get one of your castings so that I can really see it for myself, but I don't have any evidence that these units ran under the wires. But, I'm still looking! cos wsbcos.com Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > Hi Wayne! I don't have the books you're describing there, but I wondered if > all of the photos you're talking about show the right side of the unit or > not. The dynamics would only be visible on the right side. If there were > no dynamics, the holes where the grills were would be covered by riveted > plates. Can anyone else help us with more on this? > > Pat Lawless > Miracle Castings > --------------66F6E9DEF5FACC3ED3A63180 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy Pat and everybody else:

Just to continue on a bit, the Don Wood photo in Pennsy Power II clearly shows the roof tops of two A units and two B units.  Only 1 of the A units has the grills, while both of the B units have them.   Other photos or Right/engineer side show these same grills.  It appears that the early units had dynamic brakes,  while the later ones did not.   In Jim Boyd's book Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives in Color, relatively few photos of a top down right side Eire builts.

Maybe I'll have to get one of your castings so that I can really see it for myself, but I don't have any evidence that these units ran under the wires.  But, I'm still looking!

cos
wsbcos.com

Miracle Castings Inc. wrote:

Hi Wayne!  I don't have the books you're describing there, but I wondered if
all of the photos you're talking about show the right side of the unit or
not.  The dynamics would only be visible on the right side.  If there were
no dynamics, the holes where the grills were would be covered by riveted
plates.  Can anyone else help us with more on this?

Pat Lawless
Miracle Castings
 

  --------------66F6E9DEF5FACC3ED3A63180-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DZJN21A@prodigy.com (MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:08:27, -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k BGLE Greg, excuse my ignorance but just what is a disposable brush? Also, do you use the internal & external mix brushes for different type paints. I just bought Polly Scale PRR Maroon & Brunswick Green "water based" paints. Can I use my external airbrush with these? Thanks, Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HTA1970@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:02:36 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Juniata Shops I know that the PRR produced some engines for other associated lines. I'm looking to find out information about these engines which are believed to have been built at Juniata. These are the Juniata Builder numbers: 2019, 2020, 2411 Also, does anyone have the PRR engine numbers on the following engine builder numbers. Baldwin #26749 H-6sb 2-8-0 Juniata #2032 H-6sb 2-8-0 Juniata #2033 H-6sb 2-8-0 Juniata #2034 H-6sb 2-8-0 Juniata #2035 H-6sb 2-8-0 Juniata #2660 H-6sb 2-8-0 Juniata #2661 H-6sb 2-8-0 Juniata #2225 E-5s 4-4-2 Juniata #2226 E-5s 4-4-2 Juniata #2669 E-5s 4-4-2 Also can any one give me any information about the following PRR engines. Baldwin # 14683 PRR #6514 which was sold to the NYP&N as #1039 PRR #2911 2-8-0 PRR #6516 2-8-0 I'm trying to find out a few details about these locomotives for my Delmarva Web Site. Also, is there a place where I could get Juniata or Baldwin Builders Photographs? And is there a listing of engines which were used by the Delaware, Norfolk, and Delmarva Divisions? Thanks Harry Aycock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 02:58:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Duplicating dilemma To All, << > How often do you have two models come out at the same time for a > prototype no one has done before in kit form? > You mean like when Stewart, Atlas, and MDC all came out with HO RS-3's at the same time? >> And of course the F unit duplicating dilemma of Stewart, Life Like, Athearn/ Highliner, Intermountain and yes a player to be named at a future Date that will have their product out before all those except Life Like. Yep, you heard it from me another F unit of P2K quality will hit the scene very soon. 3^) How's that for a competitive market and we shouldn't pick on the manufacturers, I agree, they will implode without our help!!!!! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 02:36:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins magazine articles In a message Andy writes: << If you can find the earlier Mantua version of the "streamline" caboose, use it for your kitbash. Better plastic and a metal underframe (very hard metal, in fact--hard to work with, but a good base for the model). If you have an Xacto miter box and a large razor saw, you are in business. Study the N8 drawings/photos, and you can see by making two cuts and re-attaching the pieces, you will have the cupola centered and the large windows properly positioned. Patch the smaller window, and you got it.>> I agree, the Mantua shell and underframe are the best to work from but are becoming extremely rare, I would venture to say that it is on the endangered species list. The Model Railroader article conversion was so bad, even with the retraction/correction on the surgery it prompted me to write the article I wrote in Mainline Modeler. Less cuts, less fills, less headaches. It is about time to redo the article as my "acceptable level" on my bar has gone way up. And I want to make a master for a Resin kit manufacturer so we can all have the N-8 without the conversion headache. <> The proper paint for the Pennsy Cabin Cars was freight car color don't forget. Tuscan would not make for an accurate Cabin car, if you are really serious. <> There should be no fear using my article as it was based on measurement and not the "looks close" attitude. But again it needs to be updated and I will rewrite the article in the near future and it will allow me the opportunity to create a master. <> Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Frustrating products From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:31:40 EST Yes, I agree there are many products that are close to being great but miss the mark due to an easily corrected design flaw. My best example dates back almost 40 years! One of my passions in model railroading is heavy weight cars, particularly Pullman's. In the late 1950's that market was dominated by the Walthers line of wooden cars with sheet metal sides. Other than a Piker and an Oscar I never bought any of them. They were rarely stocked in hobby shops I visited and mail order was not what it is now. Then in 1959 Athern came out with a nice looking array of plastic cars. While the passenger cars were obviously shortened they looked great. So in 1960, while in my first apartment during a Summer job in Pittsburgh, I got a Pullman and planned to while away the boring evenings doing a complete interior. Can't do it! The two sides are mirror images so both the rest rooms would be at the same end! Now I could accept that the 12-1 had to be shortened to about an 8 or 10 section car with no drawing room. But how did the sides get flipped? Who ever did the design had no familiarity with the cars at all. In those days you could still buy a ticket on one! Athern, or their ad agency had to know of the error because only the correct side is shown in ads. Had to bag that idea and went to a few Pirates games, they won the pennant that Summer! Should have taken my new 35mm camera and shot gobs of slides, but I paid no attention to all that was there then. Guess what? They are still producing them from, I hope, the same dies. I would hate to think they re-tooled and repeated the error. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:24:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Duplicating dilemma Folks, I always felt kanda sorry for MDC and Stewart when that trio of RS3's all hit the market around the same time.It was an engine long sought by modelers and the manurfacturers listened all too well! Seems a similar situation occured with the PS1 (ConCor in two versions, Walthers, Accurail, Kadee and was it Intermountain? Not to mention Front Range and those folks over in South Dakota who I suddenly can't recall) The 1944 AAR box is getting a pretty good workout too. At least a modeler is offered a wide selection of detail level and price, and I'm actually more concerned with the manurfacturer in this case. It could be rather discouraging to run up against this kind of situation. (Oh, that was McKeen over in SoDak) Another sure way to get a model in plastic is to check my brass collection. just like my As616 from Hallmark spawned a nice model from Stewart, I think we can expect an E6, Baldwin babyface and CNJ suburban tanker at any time. After all, it worked with the N5C didn't it? Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Duplicating dilemma Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:49:34 -0500 Barry, Life-Like has been working on the EMD E6 A and B diesel for a couple of years now. It will be ready to ship probably in May or June of this year. They have other 1st generation diesels in the works as well, both EMD and non-EMD. Life-Like is the one wild card that will discourage other manufacturers from doing diesels of the 1940 to 1970 vintage because they have the resources and ability to produce them so quickly, of such high quality, and at a lower price (for what you get) than any other of the current manufacturers. Would you want to sink a couple hundred thousand dollars into a 2 to 4 year project of producing a model diesel of the 50s and 60s knowing that should Life-Like wish to do the same, they will blow you out of the water by undercutting your timeline, your quality, and your price? I suspect that there will be a shake-out of companies offering HO diesels due to this situation. Kato had plans of doing the GP30, had already started, but dropped them as soon as word leaked out that Life-Like was working on a P2K GP30! Jim Six -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com To: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Duplicating dilemma >Folks, >I always felt kanda sorry for MDC and Stewart when that trio of RS3's all hit >the market around the same time.It was an engine long sought by modelers and >the manurfacturers listened all too well! Seems a similar situation occured >with the PS1 (ConCor in two versions, Walthers, Accurail, Kadee and was it >Intermountain? Not to mention Front Range and those folks over in South Dakota >who I suddenly can't recall) The 1944 AAR box is getting a pretty good workout >too. At least a modeler is offered a wide selection of detail level and price, >and I'm actually more concerned with the manurfacturer in this case. It could >be rather discouraging to run up against this kind of situation. (Oh, that was >McKeen over in SoDak) >Another sure way to get a model in plastic is to check my brass collection. >just like my As616 from Hallmark spawned a nice model from Stewart, I think we >can expect an E6, Baldwin babyface and CNJ suburban tanker at any time. After >all, it worked with the N5C didn't it? Regards, >Barry Peltier > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Manufacturer's Plans From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:31:40 EST I am a little late in responding to this topic but I want to point out a problem in talking to manufacturers regarding future releases. In any competitive business future release plans are a highly guarded secret! With large design and tooling costs, the last thing they want is a cheap knock off to hit the market while they are carefully developing a quality product. So, when talking with them suggest, comment, or even complain, but do not ask about future products. To ask is rude. It forces them to lie and/or deny which no one (well most of us) do not want to do. If you do get an answer, it will be no. Even if there is a whatever in the works. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Frustrating products Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:27:34 PST OK, anyone (besides me) buy all those HO Pennsy cabin car kits that were marketed back in the mid 1970's by an outfit whose name is lost to my memory? Each kit came in a pastic bag. The instructions were hand drawn. The components were styrene flat cavity molds. There was styrene stock for the underframes pieces, and, I think, a set of of Athearn freight trucks. As I recall, I couldn't tell the inside of the castings from the outside. Guess I should applaud the maker/marketer for effort. I would up selling the bunch from a second hand rack at a hobby shop in Lawton, Oklahoma. This was pre-Boser, pre-Quality Craft u-solder 'em brass. I mean, way back in time. I like now better. Andrew Harmantas, modeling but never completing all kinds of Pennsy stuff, from the port city of Newport News, Virginia.. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:38:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Duplicating dilemma In a message dated 2/14/99 8:41:30 AM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Another sure way to get a model in plastic is to check my brass collection. just like my As616 from Hallmark spawned a nice model from Stewart, I think we can expect an E6, Baldwin babyface and CNJ suburban tanker at any time. After all, it worked with the N5C didn't it? >> Sounds familiar. Seriously, to find out whether something is coming in plastic or being rerun in plastic, I go to the monthly Great Midwest Train Show at DuPage in Illinois. Before Bowser released their N5B, the brass versions were dumped there and elsewhere. Before Athearn reissued their 86 foot HI-Cubes, the Trains versions in brass were and are still being dumped. News travels there faster than the modeling press. I have a chance to buy another N8 at a bargain price, so watch for a plastic one soon:-) I also have another way to tell when Bowser or someone is coming out with an easy kit. If I bought a resin kit and haven't built it yet, it will come out in plastic. Worked for the F31, X29, and GSH. I understand the X31f is next. (I also cornered the market on ECW P70s and PB70s before the Bachmann issue, but at least the ECW kit is superior in appearance once you get them assembled) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:37:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] X-29 REA PRR Modelers, I am in the process of completeing a fleet of Red Caboose X-29's in the REA service scheme. I was wondering if the iron work ( grab irons, etc) are painted black like the ones on passenger equipment. Anyone know for sure? In a letter I wrote the other day here to the PRR-Talk I mentoned there was a ND Bobber Cabin that was available for $59.95. The Company''s name is THE BRASS WORKS INC. I recieved an email from the owner again yesterday replying to several questions I had asked him a day earlier. I ask Randolph if his Company was succesful with importing these ND Cabins, would they be doing any future products. This is what he said. They have spent funds in the 6 digit figures to get his company up and running. They have or (had) plans on releasing Steam, Diesel and other items also. Due to the lack of interest shown in the ND, the company may not venture into all those projects. I also told Randolph that I reported the availabilty of his ND Cabin to this Chat -Room. He appreciated my help for spreading the news of his company. Of the 40 they are importing there were still 10 unspoken for. I asked Randolph yesterday if any of the members on this list replied to him with any reservations for the remaining 10 that are still available. His reply was, "None of your buddies there at the PRR chat room has gotten in touch with me" That is very disappointing news to hear because this is a company that may have listened to us modelers for suggestions on future PRR releases. You have to support these companies if you expect to add unreleased models to your roster. To view more about this company go to their Web site located at: www.brassmodel.com Email is at: sales@brassmodel.com If you don't need a ND cabin car spread the word. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HTA1970@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:07:29 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 Can anyone tell me about this engine. It was supposed to have operated on the Delmarva, but that is all I know. Harry Aycock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:49:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Frustrating products In a message dated 2/14/99 11:53:11 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: << OK, anyone (besides me) buy all those HO Pennsy cabin car kits that were marketed back in the mid 1970's by an outfit whose name is lost to my memory? Each kit came in a plastic bag. The instructions were hand drawn. The components were styrene flat cavity molds. There was styrene stock for the underframes pieces, and, I think, a set of Athearn freight trucks. As I recall, I couldn't tell the inside of the castings from the outside. Guess I should applaud the maker/marketer for effort. I would up selling the bunch from a second hand rack at a hobby shop in Lawton, Oklahoma. >> Andy, I think I bought your kits. Do you want them back? All but one is still in its bag. They were unbuildable. The last commercial N8 kit was Quality Craft's embossed brass and wood kit released sometime long ago. I think about 1979 or 1980. I just saw one at December's Springfield (Ohio) Model Train Show listed at $32. I bought at a 1997 Springfield show for $5.00 but the brass looks so pretty I haven't wanted to start it. It doesn't look much different from the Quality Craft/Gloor Craft N6B kits I'm building right now. Tom V II Timothy 3:9 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:45:22 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Calendars...? I was just wonderin'... I've been looking for the calendars published by "The Weekend Chief" out of Hicksville, NY. I missed seeing any at the GATS show yesterday...and was just wonderin'...does anyone have an idea of how to find an outlet for them...? Both the PRR <'n the nyc> calendars have shots of the Aerotrain in them. I sure would love to find a way...but I may have to write them. Thanx. -- "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me read my PRR-Talk messages." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too mcrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] Manufacturer's Plans Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:51:46 -0000 Gents: Dear-old-dad was right on this one. The P2K E6 that is due out (I'm planing on ordering SCL decals as I type this) is comming out in an array of Southern paint schemes. An individual from one of the Southern groups pesterd P2K on paint schemes on the loco. Due to the lack of response, he posted a big nasty letter on the net bashing P2K for no Southern paint. Managment of P2K did not like this one bit, as they are supporters and fans (I have been told) of southeastren roads. Their other products have shown this, it is good to see a break from usual Santa Fe, PRR, Great Northern, etc. Very diverse product line, at a very good value. The NYC GP 20 I just bought speaks for itself, along with my NYC and custom painted Penn Central E8s. Garrett Rea -----Original Message----- From: Fred G Rea To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 3:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Manufacturer's Plans >I am a little late in responding to this topic but I want to point out a >problem in talking to manufacturers regarding future releases. In any >competitive business future release plans are a highly guarded secret! >With large design and tooling costs, the last thing they want is a cheap >knock off to hit the market while they are carefully developing a quality >product. > >So, when talking with them suggest, comment, or even complain, but do not >ask about future products. To ask is rude. It forces them to lie and/or >deny which no one (well most of us) do not want to do. If you do get an >answer, it will be no. Even if there is a whatever in the works. > >Fred Rea > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:47:11 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29 REA All the painting diagrams I have for the REA scheme make no reference to the ironwork being anything but freight car color. After a few months on the road you could hardly read any of the lettering anyhow, let alone distinguish if the ironwork was a diferent color.. doloris mittner wrote: > PRR Modelers, > > I am in the process of completeing a fleet of Red Caboose X-29's > in the REA service scheme. I was wondering if the iron work ( grab > irons, etc) are painted black like the ones on passenger equipment. > Anyone know for sure? > In a letter I wrote the other day here to the PRR-Talk I mentoned > there was a ND Bobber Cabin that was available for $59.95. The > Company''s name is THE BRASS WORKS INC. I recieved an email from the > owner again yesterday replying to several questions I had asked him a > day earlier. I ask Randolph if his Company was succesful with importing > these ND Cabins, would they be doing any future products. This is what > he said. They have spent funds in the 6 digit figures to get his company > up and running. They have or (had) plans on releasing Steam, Diesel and > other items also. Due to the lack of interest shown in the ND, the > company may not venture into all those projects. I also told Randolph > that I reported the availabilty of his ND Cabin to this Chat -Room. He > appreciated my help for spreading the news of his company. Of the 40 > they are importing there were still 10 unspoken for. I asked Randolph > yesterday if any of the members on this list replied to him with any > reservations for the remaining 10 that are still available. His reply > was, "None of your buddies there at the PRR chat room has gotten in > touch with me" That is very disappointing news to hear because this is > a company that may have listened to us modelers for suggestions on > future PRR releases. You have to support these companies if you expect > to add unreleased models to your roster. To view more about this > company go to their Web site located at: www.brassmodel.com Email is > at: sales@brassmodel.com If you don't need a ND cabin car spread the > word. Gary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Frustrating products Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:05:27 PST Please, keep them with my compliments. I am such an unworthy modeler I couldn't even begin to build them properly. Or, try this: keep them a while longer, then put them in a show with a sign saying "collector's items', and "rare". Hey! It works for others. Andrew h ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Consist from the past Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:24:41 -0500 Hello All: I got a letter, forwarded by the PRRT&HS National Office, from Harry G. White, a member. It was sent to me as Pres., Pittsburgh Chapter PRRT&HS Mr.. White wants to know the consist of the last run by his Grandfather Harry (Henry) White as engineer of engine #9708 before his retirement from the PRR. His last run was from Conway yard to Niles, OH, sometime in 1946. Fred Shaefer, the new "PRRT&HS Answer Man" was able to tell Mr. White that his Grandfather's engine (#9708) was a class N1s, 2-10-2, built by ALCO as #58584 on 3/19. Fred asked me if I could supply information about the consist. Young Mr. White wants to give his Father the information as a surprise gift in the future. If anyone can help, please write. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:25:53 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 Howdy All and Harry: I looked through my MP 229 or 11/1/44 and can find no engine number 5079. The 5021 and 5040 are listed as H9s and the 5022 was listed as a K4s. There is a 5719 listed as a G5s. All of the above had assignments to the Delmarva Division. I looked for 5790, no luck - most of the 57xx series is assigned to the G5s - but know that high. No solid block for the 507x series, some K4s, HXs and even a B8 is listed in the series. If the Pennsy had any electric or diesel in the 5000 series, I don't know of them - Conrail 5079, former PC/PRR 2445 was a C425. Sorry, but maybe someone else has a earlier list that would show your locomotive. cos wsbcos.com HTA1970@aol.com wrote: > Can anyone tell me about this engine. It was supposed to have operated on the > Delmarva, but that is all I know. > > Harry Aycock > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:33:03 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 The loco roster I have indicates that 5079 was used only once; for a D16d. This might make sense, as I seem to recall photos or conversations about 4-4-0's bring used somewhere on the Delmarva but I don't know if this data fits into the time frame you are looking at since my list does nor give a disposition date for this particular number. Hope this helps out a bit. Frank Brua Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Howdy All and Harry: > > I looked through my MP 229 or 11/1/44 and can find no engine number 5079. The > 5021 and 5040 are listed as H9s and the 5022 was listed as a K4s. There is a 5719 > listed as a G5s. All of the above had assignments to the Delmarva Division. I > looked for 5790, no luck - most of the 57xx series is assigned to the G5s - but > know that high. No solid block for the 507x series, some K4s, HXs and even a B8 > is listed in the series. > > If the Pennsy had any electric or diesel in the 5000 series, I don't know of them > - Conrail 5079, former PC/PRR 2445 was a C425. > > Sorry, but maybe someone else has a earlier list that would show your locomotive. > > cos > wsbcos.com > > HTA1970@aol.com wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me about this engine. It was supposed to have operated on the > > Delmarva, but that is all I know. > > > > Harry Aycock > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:38:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 Hello, I have not been following the discussion to closely on this subject. Is the question what engine was # 5079? 5079 was a D16d. This info is obtained in the book KEYSTONE STEAM & ELECTRIC. That particular loco number is not listed for its disposition but likely was scraped in the mid 1930's. That is a guess. According to this listing #5079 was only applied to this Steam loco. No Electric ever carried that number. This book does not cover diesel so it may have been used later on those. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:47:05 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 I found it! The 5079 was assigned to the Delmarva Division, but it was leased to the B&E Railroad (Baltimore and Eastern Railroad Company - 119.32 total miles). It was one of two D16sb leased to the B&E. It was one of three D16sb's on the roster in 1944, the other being the 1223 - also assigned to the Delmarva Division. The other lease locomotive to the B&E was the 1035. Thanks for the tip Frank and there you have it Harry! Park Varieties wrote: > The loco roster I have indicates that 5079 was used only once; for a D16d. > on the Delmarva > > > > > Can anyone tell me about this engine. It was supposed to have operated on the > > > Delmarva, but that is all I know. > > > > > > Harry Aycock > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:33:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] NDs PRR Guys, On the Pennsy a ND was a 4 wheel bobber caboose (Cabin Car). Built in the early part of the century. They lasted into the 40s' -50's although not in reagular service. There is still one located in Strasburg. To see a photo of the Brass Model I was telling everyone about go this website. www.brassmodel.com The first picture you will see is a fine example of this car. It is the O scale version that this company also produces. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] NDs Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:27:49 -0000 Gents: What year did Ohio outlaw four wheel Cabins or Cabooses (Cabeese?) I know the Ohio River and Western narrow gauge (pre PRR take over?) had to modify a few for this reason. Garrett PRR Guys, On the Pennsy a ND was a 4 wheel bobber caboose (Cabin Car). Built in the early part of the century. They lasted into the 40s' -50's although not in reagular service. There is still one located in Strasburg. To see a photo of the Brass Model I was telling everyone about go this website. www.brassmodel.com The first picture you will see is a fine example of this car. It is the O scale version that this company also produces. Gary - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] Trainphone and Cabins Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:20:38 -0000 Gents: Two questions: 1, Were any N6Bs Trainphone equipped? I have never seen a photo of one, and I know that Trainphone was not in all areas, and most N6Bs were gone by the early 60's..... 2, When did PRR cabins have the antennas removed? I have seen one or to engines photographed in the final minutes before PC with the Trainphone antennas on, but what about cabins? Ian Fischer's PRR Color Guide, Vol. 2, shows most cabins in focal orange w/o the Trainphone antennas and anything with the RADIO decal on the side without them as well. Thanks Garrett Rea P.S. if anyone is looking- you can get PRR RADIO decals from Raritan Bay Hobbies, (732)494-2932 (area code may have changed) Come four to a set, got some for my SD40 and F7s, if I ever get them done.... GR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:46:19 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] NDs From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, What exactly are the NDs? I was more so into the metal N5s and N8s. What service were tese cars used in and when? Thanks for the information. On Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:37:37 -0500 (EST) mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) writes: >PRR Modelers, > > I am in the process of completeing a fleet of Red Caboose X-29's >in the REA service scheme. I was wondering if the iron work ( grab >irons, etc) are painted black like the ones on passenger equipment. >Anyone know for sure? > In a letter I wrote the other day here to the PRR-Talk I mentoned >there was a ND Bobber Cabin that was available for $59.95. The >Company''s name is THE BRASS WORKS INC. I recieved an email from the >owner again yesterday replying to several questions I had asked him a >day earlier. I ask Randolph if his Company was succesful with importing >these ND Cabins, would they be doing any future products. This is >what he said. They have spent funds in the 6 digit figures to get his company >up and running. They have or (had) plans on releasing Steam, Diesel and >other items also. Due to the lack of interest shown in the ND, the >company may not venture into all those projects. I also told Randolph >that I reported the availabilty of his ND Cabin to this Chat -Room. He >appreciated my help for spreading the news of his company. Of the 40 >they are importing there were still 10 unspoken for. I asked Randolph >yesterday if any of the members on this list replied to him with any >reservations for the remaining 10 that are still available. His reply >was, "None of your buddies there at the PRR chat room has gotten in >touch with me" That is very disappointing news to hear because this is >a company that may have listened to us modelers for suggestions on >future PRR releases. You have to support these companies if you expect >to add unreleased models to your roster. To view more about this >company go to their Web site located at: www.brassmodel.com Email is >at: sales@brassmodel.com If you don't need a ND cabin car spread the >word. Gary Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:38:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 5070 Altoona Shops Construction number 2104 original built for the Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore Railroad was built March, 1900 as D16d PW&B 79. Number changed to 5079 in 1903 reclassed D16b Jan 1913 and then to D16sb August 1916. Information from "Pennsylvania Railroad Altoona Machine Shops Construction Number List 1866-1904" by Joseph D. Lovell published by Library of American Transportation 1984 Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:28:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 PRR steam locomotive 5079 was a D16sb at one time. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:19:59 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] PRR 5079 Hi All... See page No. 112 in Pennsy Power I at the bottom of the page.... A picture of D-16sb 5079. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:03:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 In a message dated 2/14/99 2:32:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, HTA1970@aol.com writes: << Can anyone tell me about this engine. It was supposed to have operated on the Delmarva, but that is all I know. Harry Aycock >> ------------------------------ Hi Harry & All, A photograph of PRR # 5079 (8x10 B&W from the collection of C.F.Brown, taken in Wilmington, DE on 8/14/46) is up for sale on Ebay as item #67037313. Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:10:59 EST Subject: [PRR] second ND at Illinois Railroad Moseum In a message dated 2/14/99 9:00:19 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << On the Pennsy an ND was a 4 wheel bobber caboose (Cabin Car). Built in the early part of the century. They lasted into the 40s' -50's although not in regular service. There is still one located in Strasburg. >> During the past week I helped some fellows at the Illinois Railroad Museum identify the class of a four-wheel Pennsy bobber, car number 476199, stored at their facility in Union, Illinois since 1957. Based upon the in formation provided by Jim Opolony of the IRM freight car department, it appears the it is an ND although I could not trace the car number. Word that the car was built in 1903 caused e my heart to flutter, thinking it might be an NE or NEa until, at my request they checked and found it has a steel underframe and sent the following: "The car's dimensions are as follows: It is 28ft. 4in. in length, 9ft. 3in. in width, and has a height of 13ft. 5in. Other information the car is that it has a weight of 28,000 lbs., a KC breaking system, and pedestal trucks." The height of the car pretty ell cinch that it's an ND as the Lines West cupola of the NE and Panhandle cupola of the NEa are a foot or more. Since Lines East didn't adopt the ND design until 1904,. it's very likely there was a transcription error recording the buily-on date I connected with Jim by responding to an inquiry about the specific cabin Jim made to the Information Exchange of the PRRT&HS website. Jim said they're probably state restoration later this year. The Museum is not open to the public until April. Tom V. II Timothy, 3:9 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:43:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) NDs In a message dated 2/14/99 10:12:50 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, glrea@earthlink.net writes: << What year did Ohio outlaw four wheel Cabins or Cabooses (Cabeese?) >> Never, but in 1913 the Ohio General Assembly require any caboose receiving pusher service have steel underframes affecting cabin classes but Lines East's NDs, then only steel underframe PRR cabin car. All-wood PRR cabins lasted unril 1933. N5, N6B and N6B all went info service in 1914. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:06:57 -0500 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: [PRR] Decoder wiring I know this is off-topic, so could anyone with the experience, or with the know-how, wiring a decoder into a Proto 2000 FA-2 contact me directly. There's a cluster of what I think are resistors that has me a bit confused. Thanks. Bob Zeolla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: Fw: [PRR] NDs Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:15:52 -0000 > ><< What year did Ohio outlaw four wheel Cabins or Cabooses (Cabeese?) > >> >Never, but in 1913 the Ohio General Assembly require any caboose receiving >pusher service have steel underframes affecting cabin classes but Lines East's >NDs, then only steel underframe PRR cabin car. All-wood PRR cabins lasted >unril 1933. > N5, N6B and N6B all went info service in 1914. > >Tom V. Tom et al Found it...... "Hidden Treasures, the Story of the Ohio River & Western Ry" copyright 1997, Timber Times Publishing and written by Edward Cass on pg. 125 states that Ohio law required that all cabins had to have eight wheels, a hopper, a cupola, and be 24 feet long or longer by 1919. Post-dated the 1912 PRR take over, and the eventual loss of Ohio narrow gauge excluding the two rails stuck in a street in Zanesville that are 3' apart.....and the occasional boxcar or coach in a backyard. Garrett Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engine number 5079 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:17:59 -0500 There's also a picture on page 201 of "Rails Along the Chesapeake." The three D16sb locos on the roster in the 1940s attracted a bunch of photographers, so you'll find quite a few pics here and there. According to "Rails Along the Chesapeake," 5079 was the last 4-4-0 active on the Pennsy roster. (The 1223 of course was the only D16sb to survive, but she had been removed from active duty for restoration). Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:21:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Re:(PRR) NDs In a message dated 2/15/99 12:30:50 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, glrea@earthlink.net writes: << "Hidden Treasures, the Story of the Ohio River & Western Ry" copyright 1997, Timber Times Publishing and written by Edward Cass on pg. 125 states that Ohio law required that all cabins had to have eight wheels, a hopper, a cupola, and be 24 feet long or longer by 1919. >> Garrett, Sounds like the 1913 law but where's mention of underframes? No cupolas? I remember seeing NYC bay window cabeese on the Big Four line through Fairborn, Ohio, about 50 years later. A PRR NX23 with a bay window was assigned to Urbana, Ohio. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:41:41 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] second ND at Illinois Railroad Moseum There's also a ND on display at the train station in New Oxford, PA. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:09:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Erie Builts According to PDY vol4 page 123 Pennsy's second batch of Erie Builts didn't have dynamic brakes. This batch was purchased in 1948 and was only A units. Just thought I'd add this tidbit of info. Now does anyone have photographic proof of Erie Builts or C-Liners operating between Renova & Erie or Oil City and Buffalo Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:00:12 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29 REA > In a letter I wrote the other day here to the PRR-Talk I mentoned >there was a ND Bobber Cabin that was available for $59.95. The >Company''s name is THE BRASS WORKS INC. His reply >was, "None of your buddies there at the PRR chat room has gotten in >touch with me" Well, could be a couple of problems...one is that the ND is limited in its usefulness to most HO modelers. It may be more popular in O scale due to its small size, but as has been noted here, the ND was obsolete in the early 20's. While a few did show up well into the 40's and even the 50's (and I've seen the photos), they weren't very common at that time. A search of the KC Cabin car database (circa 1957) provided the following FOUR cars (Hey Jerry! Thanks for the extra arrows): Road # Class Region Assignment 476039 ND PGH. SUPERVISOR #52-TYRONE 476087 ND N.Y. GREENVILLE SHOP 476419 ND PGH. SUPERVISOR #44-HUNTINGDON 476460 ND CHES ST. HELENA LOCAL-BALTIMORE The second obvious problem is a lack of name recognition...who are these guys? In the first message, I'm not sure the company name was mentioned (thanks for posting the web site..it helps!). I know that I for one am reluctant to give money to people I've never heard of. The third is the "too good to be true syndrome". $59.95, in todays market? Too good to be true...sounds like a rip off (I'm NOT saying it is...just that the price sounds suspicious, especially when compared to the Railworks N6 which can be found for around $130-150). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:41:24 EST Subject: Fw: [PRR] NDs Garrett, Here's a copy of the only mention of cabeese currently in the Ohio Revised Code. It's the one referred to in the ORWRy book. Please note the effective date, 40 years after the fact. As I'm in the middle of writing a prototype/construction article on the N6 class cabin I will research this issue and get back to you. The text was downloaded through one of two online copies of the Ohio Code accessible through the official state of Ohio website "www.Ohio.gov." I checked both and the online copy of the Ohio Administrative Code, the rules issued by all state agencies accessed through the same site and I could find no mention of the 1913 law referred to in most histories I've or of an adoption of this law earlier than 1952 nor of any other rule or regulation governing caboose construction. Stay Tuned. ORC Section 4963.21; General Assembly: 100. Bill Number: House Bill 1 Effective Date: 10-1-53 No common carrier operating a railroad, in whole or in part, within this state, or manager or superintendent of such common carrier, shall require or permit the use within this state upon such railroad, of any caboose car or other car used for like purpose which is not at least twenty-four feet in length, exclusive of platforms, and equipped with two four-wheeled trucks, with suitable closets, and with either a cupola or with bay windows, and provided with a door in each end and an outside platform across each end of such car. Each platform shall be not less than twenty-four inches in width and shall be equipped with proper guardrails and with grab-irons and steps for the safety of persons getting on and off said car. Said steps shall be equipped with a suitable rod, board, or other guard at each end and at the back, properly designed to prevent slipping from such step. In case of unusual and unforeseen demands of traffic on the railroad, caboose cars not built in accordance with this section may be used temporarily only where the railroad company desiring to use the same applies to and obtains from the public utilities commission authority to use the same temporarily. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:10:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Builts In a message dated 2/15/99 11:28:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, FarbLand@aol.com writes: > According to PDY vol4 page 123 Pennsy's second batch of Erie Builts didn't > have dynamic brakes. This batch was purchased in 1948 and was only A units. > Just thought I'd add this tidbit of info. Now does anyone have photographic > proof of Erie Builts or C-Liners operating between Renova & Erie or Oil City > and Buffalo This group of FF20's were originally FP20 class and are equipped with boilers/steam generators for passenger service. I am wondering if the external variation of this group vs. the other FF20's is a result of the steam generator equipment rather than dynamic brakes and the information in PDY 1 is correct that all FF20 had dynamic brakes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:43:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Builts In a message dated 2/15/99 11:28:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, FarbLand@aol.com writes: > According to PDY vol4 page 123 Pennsy's second batch of Erie Builts didn't > have dynamic brakes. This batch was purchased in 1948 and was only A units. > Just thought I'd add this tidbit of info. Now does anyone have photographic > proof of Erie Builts or C-Liners operating between Renova & Erie or Oil City > and Buffalo Apparently, there is a conflict in the information provided in PDY. Vol 1 page 158 shows this group 9480-9491 to have DB. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:46:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Builts In a message dated 2/15/99 2:10:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, SUVCW ORR writes: << his group of FF20's were originally FP20 class and are equipped with boilers/steam generators for passenger service. I am wondering if the external variation of this group vs. the other FF20's is a result of the steam generator equipment rather than dynamic brakes and the information in PDY 1 is correct that all FF20 had dynamic brakes. Rich Orr >> ok I stand corrected. You'd think the editor would cross check the infomation. Still is there any documentation of Erie Builts and C-Liners between Renovo and Erie. or Oil City and Buffalo. Other than under construction at GE Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:02:32 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Former P&E / PRR Renovo Shops Up For Sale Again Greetings to the Group, The following was in the Tuesday, February 8, 1999 issue of the _Altoona Mirror_ on page A2. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ Railcar Deal Falls Through LOCK HAVEN (AP) - The sale of a Clinton County industrial park to a Georgia railcar firm has fallen through, officials said. The $600,000 sale of Renovo Industrial Park to Fitzgerald Railcar Services fell through last week, said Mike Flanagan of the Clinton County Economic Partnership. County officials have begun marketing the 80-acre site, which has undergone major improvements since the county bought the former Pennsylvania Railroad property at a sheriff's sale. The Renovo property was put back on the market because the railroad company's affiliate, Pennsylvania Railcar Corp., was unable to secure sufficient contract work, said Wes Grand, head of the Economic Partnership. The firm had expected to hire 100 people when it started operations in Renovo. Officials are remaining upbeat about the failed deal. The site "has outstanding potential enhanced even more by the probable designation as a tax-free Keystone Opportunity Zone, Grand said. That designation, which appears likely, waives taxes for 12 years. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:19:35 EST Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] NDs In a message dated 2/15/99 4:49:37 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, padraice@juno.com writes: << Now comes the question; at that late date, does ANY state have the authority to regulate equipment or much else in the operation of an interstate railroad? I suspect not. This is normally federal jurisdiction. >> In my experience, the state can regulate what is within their borders, i.e., a cabin car being pushed, while the federal governs events crossing state lines, essentially only rates being quoted to an out of state customer. I just spent a couple of hours going through periodicals indices researching the 1913 Ohio caboose safety law. The law which Garrett quoted actually took effect in 1953, not 1913, and is still on the books with a minimum of comments or case law and survived two major code revisions in the past 46 years. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:56:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Builts This message was automatically forwarded by a Worm. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Morning Sun Books... Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:38:09 -0500 ***"you would think the Editor would cross check the information..." As I have said many times before, Morning Sun are very nice as picture books, but do not trust the " information"...there are too many errors and un-verified statements all through the series.....bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:41:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29 REA/Black Hardware ? Gary and All, None of the X-29 cars equipped for "R.E.A." had their hardware painted black to my knowledge. I have just this morning reviewed some forty slides of X-29s all in color and none had black grabs or hardware. Even the "P" Company photos of the newly equipped cars don't show any black hardware. Remember these cars are "freight car color", not tuscan. As a side note I might add, I have found photos of "R.E.A." X-29s in each of the different body styles, 1924, 1928, and the late cars with dreadnaught ends. They also appear to have both vertical brake shaft and power brake wheels. These cars all have steam and signal lines and a quick service valve. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" P.S. Too bad about your friends brass business. Why in the world did he select the ND cabin car? Perhaps more research through this group before he committed funds to a project would have helped. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:57:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Manufacturer's Plans/ Better include PRR! Garrett, Since this is PRR-Talk is there something wrong with producing Pennsy equipment? I mean if PA-1s were ordered by Pennsy is it wrong to expect the manufacture to produce a Pennsy PA-1? Is our group and "voice" shrinking so much that we must all play second fiddle to smaller roads like Southern, Cof G,NKP and Santa Fe? Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:17:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Builts In a message dated 2/15/99 8:52:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, TVPedro@aol.com writes: << This message was automatically forwarded by a Worm. >> Can someone clue me in on what the above statement means. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:55:53 -0600 Subject: [PRR] N-8 cabin car From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, Question is is there anyone out there working on an HO scale N-8 cabin car? I was alos wondering if anyone my know where I may be able to pick up a brass model of one of these? I have searched the web pages for shop that I know carry brass and none have what I am looking for. Only Caboose Hobbies has a model of one that is from GEM if I remember correctly and this is tarnished. I am looking to either unpainted or painted. Please respond off-list on this one. Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Manufacturer's Plans/ Better include PRR! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 05:44:47 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Garrett Rea To: ELM2@aol.com Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Manufacturer's Plans/ Better include PRR! >Ed- > >Whatever sparked this?? Yes, we want to see PRR models, but the whole >world, me included (well- PC w/ a lot of PRR technically), does not model PRR. I said it is nice to see >P2K do other roads as well, correct to fashion. Did you want them to pull >an Athern and do GP 20s in PRR paint? I do not think so. The Southen comment on the E6 was a comment on secrecy of mfgrs, nothing more. They are doing ok >so far...so why the hostiltiy?? > >Garrett > > > >>Garrett, >> Since this is PRR-Talk is there something wrong with producing >>Pennsy equipment? I mean if PA-1s were ordered by Pennsy is it wrong to >expect >>the manufacture to produce a Pennsy PA-1? Is our group and "voice" >shrinking >>so much that we must all play second fiddle to smaller roads like Southern, >>Cof G,NKP and Santa Fe? >>Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Builts Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 05:52:22 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/15/99 10:17 PM, FarbLand@aol.com (FarbLand@aol.com) wrote: ><< This message was automatically forwarded by a Worm. > >> >Can someone clue me in on what the above statement means. Brian C Not sure. But I, as Listmeister, do not want to find out. The sender, "TVPedro@aol.com" (not the address shown above), has been desubscribed. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:23:31 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Ohio Code (was NDs) I note that all the sections of the code governing railroads are dated either in 1953 or 1964. Did Ohio perhaps set out to revise the Ohio Code in 1953? That is, was there a general clean-up by enacting a new code, bringing forward old laws thought to still be beneficial, with a blanket repeal of the Ohio Code of 1913 (or whatever)? If so, what we are seeing may be the date of re-enactment rather than the date of enactment. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ---LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > ... I could find > no mention of the 1913 law referred to in most histories I've or of an > adoption of this law earlier than 1952 nor of any other rule or regulation > governing caboose construction. > ORC Section 4963.21; General Assembly: 100. Bill Number: House Bill 1 > > Effective Date: 10-1-53 > > Tom V. > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:14:18 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Cabins magazine articles > I agree, the Mantua shell and underframe are the best to work from but are becoming extremely rare, I would venture to say that it is on the endangered species list. Metal one ARE hard to find. I have two or three in my project box,with another half dozen plastic ones. I also saw about a dozen plastic Tyco's at the Little Rhoddy show last Sunday, ranged anywhere from $1 to $4. I got real lucky at the November Greenberg show in Marlboro MA, and found an N8 kitbash for sale at $7 with the old hoop couplers and done in Tuscan. No problem for me, a litle paint stripper, newpaint, new decals (already on hand) and I'm good to go. One problem I've experienced doing the kitbash is getting the roof pieces level. Can't decide if I'm the problem or the thickness of the plastic is the problem. The MM article was MUCH better. Looking forward to the update. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] A ride to remember... Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:03:57 -0500 ***Ed, the next time Garrett is in town, offer him a "JJ style Ride" around the RR territory. After that, he will agree to Anything You Say !!!!..hahahha....bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 08:56:54 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] K-4 PRR 5038 PRR Gang: About a month ago, one of you posted a thread for regarding a K-4 number 5038. This was the K-4 that had the large smoke deflectors and smokestack manifold. You were looking for a photogragh the left hand side of the engine since nearly all photos were of the right hand side. Well, I found a photo of the left-hand side! Check the "Keystone," September 1982, on page 31. Your suspicions were correct. The left hand side deflector was slightly different from that on the right hand side. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana (Planning on modeling the 5038 using the Bachmann K-4--someday........) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Lost E-mail Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:50:59 -0500 Hi All! I recently received a message inviting Miracle Castings to a PRR related train show in Xenia Ohio. Unfortunately, before I could print or respond to it, my system crashed and the message was lost.. If it was anyone on this list who sent it, or you have some idea who sent it, could you let us know? Thanks, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Marketing Survey / Request for Ideas Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:31:18 -0500 From: Jerry Looking for some marketing feedback, in preparation for a show in March and beyond. I have received an installed the large format color printer I previously spoke of. I'm now formalizing some of the things I am looking to do with it. For starters, I will be reprinting PRR calendar art onto A2 size photo quality paper (16.5" X 23.4". These graphics are believed (by many in the know) to be in the public domain. Resolution will be 720 X 720 dpi. The original art I have is smaller, but will be scanned at 1200 dpi to compensate. My paper price is negligible; I don't yet know what my ink consumption rate will be. I will offer these initially for $25 to see if that covers my costs. Sales tax (if applicable) and shipping will be additional.) Need some decor for your train room? Second, I will be reprinting large size ads that the PRR ran in numerous publications during the 1940s-1950s. These, too, would be great for in the train room at $25 a pop! Third, I will be offering the service of scanning in photos and blowing them up into model railroad backdrops. You'll be able to put a photo of a real location behind your model of the area! Printable area will be 16.5" high by xx long. To reduce eye focus on the backdrop, I can convert a color image to black/white, diffuse the image (make it grainy/blurry), etc. Fourth, I will be taking my own shots and creating custom backdrops. For instance, I will offer a view of the Rockville Bridge as taken from the west end of the Enola Yards...so if you model a yard, you might see the RB in the distance! Fifth, I will be developing backdrops that represent building flats. This is an idea that was previously produced by list subscribers. Sixth, I will be taking PRR ads from the 1940s-50s and reducing them to O and HO scales, for use on layouts as posters, billboards, etc. Any other ideas? Anyone have any immediate interest in the calendar posters? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost E-mail Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:14:19 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/16/99 11:50 AM, Miracle Castings Inc. (miracle-castings@on.aibn.com) wrote: >Hi All! I recently received a message inviting Miracle Castings to a PRR >related train show in Xenia Ohio. Unfortunately, before I could print or >respond to it, my system crashed and the message was lost.. If it was anyone >on this list who sent it, or you have some idea who sent it, could you let >us know? It was "Mr. Lines West" himself, Tom Vondruska! >From the "Timetable" on "Keystone Crossings": Apr. 10, 1999: Lines West Fans Fest - Greene County, Ohio, Historical Society's Carriage House Museum. Tours, seminars relating to PRR "Lines West". $30 registration includes premiums. For more information, contact Tom Vondruska. Tom's e-mail address is: "LINESWEST@aol.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] management style and organization Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:21:56 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Derrick J Brashear Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 1:46 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] management style and organization Derrick, Three possible references come to mind. 1. Schotter, H.W. "The Growth and Development of The Pennsylvania Railroad Company." Philadelphia: Allen, Lane & Scott, 1927. 2. Burgess, George H. and Miles C. Kennedy. "Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 1846-1946. Philadelphia: The Pennsylvania Railroad Company, 1949. This book summarizes the volumes below: 3. "The Pennsylvania Railroad Company - Corporate, Financial and Construction History of Lines Owned, Operated and Controlled To December 31, 1945." New York: Coverdale and Colpitts, 1946. Volume I - PRR, owned lines; Volume II - Leased lines east of Erie/Pittsburgh; Volume III - Leased lines west of Erie/Pittsburgh and Volume IV - Affiliated companies. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:45:30 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] management style and organization Background: only 4 years late, I've gotten off my duff to finish my degree. I need two classes to graduate, and both are history classes. The guy I have seems to be at least slightly interested in the management style and organization of the PRR; Indeed, "Visible Hand" actually covers it in one chapter. Howver, I know I saw a more detailed treatment of the evolution of the organization of PRR management, and I can now neither find it in my own library, nor in the research material I have readily available. Does this sound familiar to anyone? (I'm looking for enough basically to write a 5 page or so paper, nothing spectacular, but I'd be happy to share anything I find) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:56:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] management style and organization In a message dated 2/16/99 1:59:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << I know I saw a more detailed treatment of the evolution of the organization of PRR management, and I can now neither find it in my own library, nor in the research material I have readily available. >> Not the one you're looking for, but _End of the Line_, the biography of Alexander Cassett has a lot of material on this subject arround the turn of the century. I think the author's name might be Patricia Davis, but I'm at work and the book is at home. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:03:42 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks and Lima's On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, doloris mittner wrote: > Hello PRR Guys, > > I forgot to throw this question out to the list several weeks ago > so here it is now. Three weeks ago at the Timonium, Maryland train show > I spotted a handful of BP-20's and Baldwin/Lima Hamilton Transfer Units > in HO scale. These appear to be a newly released item(s). I believe they Baldwin, or Lima-Hamilton? They were different.... > were ready to run. Maybe a "little " crude but interesting none the > less. I my self don't need any more BP's as I already have 2 A-B sets > from Oriental Ltd. However, that Lima/Baldwin unit maybe something to > look into. Did anyone else see these loco's on display. I know Bob > Knepper worked that show, did you see these Bob and if you did did you > stop and ask the people for any information on these? I didn't because I > had run out of money to purchase anything more. Gary Presumably these were the Trainstuff LLC models. If you think they were crude, you'd be better off with the MC shark, almost certainly. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:15:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] management style and organization Try referencing the following, located via altavista.com: Pennsylvania Railroad Company Manuscript Collection and Hagley Museum: Welcome To Hagley Museum and Library . Hope this helps. Dave Seidel Chapter Historian Horseshoe Curve Chapter, NRHS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:36:42 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Management and Style Greetings, I think you may find a wealth of information in a book titled THE WRECK OF THE PENN CENTRAL by Joseph R. Daughten and Peter Bizen (c) 1971. Don't be missled by the "Penn Central" in the title; this book is a fairly definitive expose of what caused the downfall of both the PRR and the NYC as well as the PC, but with the primary focus on the PRR. I was quite surprised when I started reading it and learning just what had happened to cause two admittedly great RR's to end up becoming "fallen flags". Chuck friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:33:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Sharks and Lima's Hello PRR Guys, I forgot to throw this question out to the list several weeks ago so here it is now. Three weeks ago at the Timonium, Maryland train show I spotted a handful of BP-20's and Baldwin/Lima Hamilton Transfer Units in HO scale. These appear to be a newly released item(s). I believe they were ready to run. Maybe a "little " crude but interesting none the less. I my self don't need any more BP's as I already have 2 A-B sets from Oriental Ltd. However, that Lima/Baldwin unit maybe something to look into. Did anyone else see these loco's on display. I know Bob Knepper worked that show, did you see these Bob and if you did did you stop and ask the people for any information on these? I didn't because I had run out of money to purchase anything more. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: FW: [PRR] management style and organization Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:05:43 -0600 > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Biegaj > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 2:26 PM > To: 'Derrick J Brashear'; '.PRR-Talk@dsop.com' > Subject: RE: [PRR] management style and organization > > An excellent description of the PRR's management and organization > structure is presented in a book entitled No Way to Run a Railroad, by > Stephen Salsbury (1982), which deals with the Penn Central fiasco. It > illustrates how the PRR was managed in comparison to how the NYC was > traditionally managed and why neither management structure was suitable > for a modern railroad and why both helped doom the Penn Central. The book > is largely a justification of David Bevan's actions as Chief Financial > Officer of the PC. The author makes it seem like the PRR, largely due to > Bevan's advise, had no options but to commit such acts of architectural > vandalism as demolishing Penn Station and Chicago Union Station's > concourse building because it made good business sense because of the sale > of air rights over the stations. Other than Salsbury's defense of Bevan > though, I found the first few chapters enlightening in their description > of PRR management and organization structure. If you read The Wreck of the > Penn Central by Daughen and Binzen you will see Bevan portrayed as the > chief villain in the collapse of the Penn Central who was justifiably > dismissed from the PC in 1970 for all of his investment shenanigans and > diversification schemes. A much more entertaining book, especially the > corporate organization chart which folds out of the book. Anybody have > other recommendations for Mr. Brashear? > -----Original Message----- > From: Derrick J Brashear [SMTP:shadow@dementia.org] > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 12:46 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] management style and organization > > Background: only 4 years late, I've gotten off my duff to finish my > degree. I need two classes to graduate, and both are history classes. The > guy I have seems to be at least slightly interested in the management > style and organization of the PRR; Indeed, "Visible Hand" actually covers > it in one chapter. Howver, I know I saw a more detailed treatment of the > evolution of the organization of PRR management, and I can now neither > find it in my own library, nor in the research material I have readily > available. Does this sound familiar to anyone? (I'm looking for enough > basically to write a 5 page or so paper, nothing spectacular, but I'd be > happy to share anything I find) > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:08:18 EST Subject: [PRR] X-29 REA Photo Dates, Features In a message dated 2/15/99 11:35:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ELM2@aol.com writes: > As a side note I might add, I have found photos of > "R.E.A." X-29s in each of the different body styles, 1924, 1928, and the > late > cars with dreadnaught ends. They also appear to have both vertical brake > shaft > and power brake wheels. These cars all have steam and signal lines and a > quick > service valve. Ed, Nice! Forgive me for asking: - are these published photos? - what were the paint dates? - is there any correlation between body style or date and the 4-digit numbers these cars got assigned? (e.g. 1983, 2154, 2294, 44XX, etc?) - which of these cars have a 110v female plug to the left of the door, an extra vertical handrail there, and an extra stirrup under the door? Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:07:34 Subject: [PRR] Re: Looking for N6a photos... Hi everyone, I've got a question for you all. I'm currently kitbashing a PRR class N6a cabin car. This was the "Lines West" variant of the more-commonly-seen N6b. The difference was in the cupola - the N6a had a much larger, wider cupola than the N6b did. I've got the N6a drawings in "Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads", but the book only has a single photo of a class N6a car, car PRR 981131. Do any of you know of any other published photos of class N6a cars? There seem to be fairly few photos of these cars in print... lots of N6b photos, but not many N6a photos! I'd like to be able to take a peek at one or two more photos of any class N6a car to get the details on the model right... the ideal would be a photo showing the car's appearance in the late 1920's, but I'll take anything at this point... Thanks in advance - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 13:41:47 -0500 From: Jerry I've just completed a major edit to the Diesel Locomotive Class/Model Cross-Reference table online at "Keystone Crossings". See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/diesel_xref.html Originally designed to provide a cross reference between the PRR's classification system and various loco manufacturer's model numbers, I've expanded the table to include the following information: PRR CLASS - Broken down by manufacturer and type of service, I have listed all of the PRR diesel locomotive classes. And, the class name is a link. Click on it and it will open a new window and auto-query the Diesel Locomotive Database and provide an interactive roster of all of the locomotives of the class, including unit photos. (Wow! IMHO) BUILDER MODEL - The builder's model number. HO MODEL - Available (and discontinued) HO scale models and shells. Discontinued models are shown in red, but are provided as an aid to purchasing out-of-circulation models on eBay, etc. This data is not quite as complete as Derrick Brashear's ("PRR-Talk"'s "Mr. Diesel"), but it's a good start. FIRST ON PRR - The year the class first appeared on the PRR system, according to the all-time Diesel Locomotive Database. This is helpful for when Life Like (or another company) comes out with a new loco and you wish to determine if it is appropriate for your modeling era. Let me know what you think. If you like this format, I will update the Electric Locomotive Class/Model Cross-Reference page and the Steam Locomotive Class/Model Cross-Reference page. BTW: The passenger rosters (that I haven't worked on for 18 months) will be converted to this format as well, and will also result in a Passenger Equipment Database. Yea! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Show March 7 (was Re: "Merchandise Service" -- Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 15:30:25 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/17/99 3:15 PM, BigBeerBob@aol.com (BigBeerBob@aol.com) wrote: >Jerry...Please post the location and times of the Harrisburg RR show on PRR- >Talk and Reading-Talk, please! Thank you very much! Per your request, see my "Keystone Crossings" web site. See the Timetable page at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] MTH 1999 vol2 catalog Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:20:15 -0600 MTH posted their new O-Gauge catalog to their website and it includes a scale PRR Baldwin Centipede AA set in their Premier line and an S2 locomotive in their Railking line. Their site can be found at www.MTH-Railking.com. Specs and prices are listed but the photos are rather small. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] New MTH catalog Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:07:38 -0600 Oops. I forgot to mention in my previous message that the new MTH catalog also includes a PRR doodlebug in the Railking line. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 15:51:55 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/17/99 3:36 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >> as complete as Derrick Brashear's ("PRR-Talk"'s "Mr. Diesel"), but it's a >> good start. > >Actually I'd bet there are several of you (like Rich Orr) who know much more >than I do... Yea, but how many of us are actually trying to own "one each" of every class!!! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:36:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update > HO MODEL - Available (and discontinued) HO scale models and shells. > Discontinued models are shown in red, but are provided as an aid to > purchasing out-of-circulation models on eBay, etc. This data is not quite > as complete as Derrick Brashear's ("PRR-Talk"'s "Mr. Diesel"), but it's a > good start. Actually I'd bet there are several of you (like Rich Orr) who know much more than I do... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:14:08 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 PRR 5038 In message <9901169191.AA919186563@ccmail-gw.woolpert.com>, Ted Andrews writes > PRR Gang: > > About a month ago, one of you posted a thread for regarding a K-4 number > 5038. This was the K-4 that had the large smoke deflectors and smokestack > manifold. You were looking for a photogragh the left hand side of the > engine since nearly all photos were of the right hand side. Well, I found > a photo of the left-hand side! > > Check the "Keystone," September 1982, on page 31. Your suspicions were > correct. The left hand side deflector was slightly different from that on > the right hand side. > > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > (Planning on modeling the 5038 using the Bachmann K-4--someday........) > You can blame me for that, Ted. Thanks for finding this out. I'd greatly appreciate it if anyone in the group could send me a gif. or jpg. scan of this picture. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:09:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Under Pennsy Wires I ahve placed Carlton's classic book Under Pennsy Wires on auction. See it here: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=67968963 Don Murphy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:29:06 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] New PRR Units?? On page 27 of the March, 1999 issue of Model Railroader is an ad by Hobbytown of Boston advertising Baldwin hump locomotives, sharks and DL-109's in plastic. Anybody know if they are for real? Could they be buying the body castings from Miracle Casting?? Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:26:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH catalog In a message dated 2/17/99 2:23:22 PM Central Standard Time, rbiegaj@csc.cps.k12.il.us writes: << Oops. I forgot to mention in my previous message that the new MTH catalog also includes a PRR doodlebug in the Railking line. >> The answer may be obvious to everyone but me, but who is MTH? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings shells Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:17:02 -0500 On 2/17/99 3:29 PM, Park Varieties (parkvarieties@provide.net) wrote: >On page 27 of the March, 1999 issue of Model Railroader is an ad by >Hobbytown >of Boston advertising Baldwin hump locomotives, sharks and DL-109's in >plastic. Anybody know if they are for real? Could they be buying the >body >castings from Miracle Casting?? In all likelyhood these are the Trainstuff LLC shells, which have been discussed in detail on this list. If you wish to know more information about these shells, I would suggest that you request a review from the people on the list who have seen them (I haven't). I'm sure they would be happy to oblige! 'Nuff said.......... P.S. I'm sending you an e-mail directly regarding your correspondence with us. Regards, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Show March 7 (was Re: "Merchandise Service" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:44:51 -0500 (EST) > On 2/17/99 3:15 PM, BigBeerBob@aol.com (BigBeerBob@aol.com) wrote: > > >Jerry...Please post the location and times of the Harrisburg RR show on PRR- > >Talk and Reading-Talk, please! Thank you very much! > > Per your request, see my "Keystone Crossings" web site. See the Timetable > page at... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.html Note that the Harrisburg Train Show has its own web page: http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/nrhs_hbg_show99.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] The K4 PA license...NICE !!! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:46:47 -0500 ***Thx to Dan and group, I got my K4 penna plate in today !!! Really nice, have to tack on the front of the car after we cross the border NJ-PA, at the " America starts here " sign......bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:48:35 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Re: [Southerntierrre] Fw: Complaint Department I know that this list is usually limited to scholarly debates and the serious passage of information, but I just could not pass it up. For those of you not on multiple lists and have not had the opportunity, this is great. Scott J. Whitney wrote: > From: Jim Warsher > > Some actual complaints (and responses) received by the Amtrak mechanical > department from enginemen: > > (P)Thin flanges on #3 wheelset almost needs replacement > (S) Almost replaced #3 wheelset > > (P) Dynamic brake very rough at any speed > (S) This locomotive not equipped with dynamic brake > > (P) #2 traction motor seeping oil > (S) #2 traction motor seepage normal - #1 #3 and #4 motors lack normal > seepage > > (P) Something loose in cab > (S) Something tightened in cab > > (P) Evidence of leak in crankcase > (S) Evidence removed > > (P) Alertor volume unbelievably loud > (S) Volume set to more believable level > > (P) Locomotive dances up and down when brake applied at 89MPH > (S) Could not reproduce problem in enginehouse. > > (P) Dead bugs on windshield > (S) Live bugs on order > (P) Parking brake cause throttle lever to stick > (S) That's what its there for > > (P) Engine missing > (S) Engine found under hood after brief search > > (P) Locomotive handles funny > (S) Locomotive given verbal warning to be serious > > (P) Radio hums > (S) Reprogrammed radio with the words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:26:54 -0500 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] tender question Hello, I recently acquired a copy of Pennsy Power by Stauffer, and I have a question for those of you who are far more knowledgible than I am. (That includes just about everyone.) On page 43 there is a photo of H10s # 9624. Can anybody identify the tender class? Thanks in advance. Elliot ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Operating vs. Mechanical Departments..... Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:18:27 -0500 ****Wayne, you get my "billy award" for today, for making me laugh so hard I fell outta my chair !!!! ( Each day, one of my pals gets this...).. I can add a few more.....better wait until I retire...??!! bill** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Re: Lincoln Secondary Revival... (fwd) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:54:39 -0500 (EST) Received from Jim Sinclair, multiple forwards removed. FYI. (The Lincoln Secondary is Conrail's name for the PRR main line to Detroit.) -- Mark -----cut here----- > > Hello Don: > > > > FYI, the following appeared in the January 1999 (Issue #243) issue of CTC > > BOARD RAILROADS ILLUSTRATED under the Conrail "Railroad News" section (Page > > 15, third column, second paragraph): > > > > "Lincoln Secondary Revival ... > > > > What was once the Pennsylvania's main line into Detroit will once > > again handle through freight traffic following the division of Conrail. > > CSX will use the line as a shortcut for traffic into Detroit's industrial > > zone along the Rough River. Currently, CSX traffic between Detroit and > > Toledo operates via Plymouth, MI. > > > > The Lincoln Secondary Track is a single track line linking Detroit and > > Carleton, MI. PRR utilized trackage rights over the Ann Arbor and C&O from > > Toledo to Carleton to reach their trackage in the Motor City. Penn Central > > downgraded this line by moving all Toledo-Detroit traffic to the former NYC > > Michigan Central line, now Conrail's Detroit Line. The Lincoln Secondary was > > retained to serve a large Ford parts distribution plant at Brownstown, MI. > > All track and signal work at Carleton is complete." -----cut here----- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Complaints Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:58:32 -0500 Hi All! The complaints are quite funny, but the part about them being actual complaints is urban legend. I got an identical set that were supposedly actual complaints submitted to U.S. Air Force technicians. Word for word, with "cockpit" substituted where this one says "cab". Nonetheless, they're a hoot. Pat Lawless Miracle Castings > Some actual complaints (and responses) received by the Amtrak mechanical > department from enginemen: > > (P)Thin flanges on #3 wheelset almost needs replacement > (S) Almost replaced #3 wheelset > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:32:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update In a message dated 2/17/99 17:29:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Yea, but how many of us are actually trying to own "one each" of every class!!! ;-) >> Ok I confess. I am attempting to model 5% of the total PRR diesel fleet and at least one of each class. That is approximately 230 locomotives ( actual figure is at home). Now if someone would just make all those Baldwin switchers and a phase II GP9 in plastic I would be home free. Amassing them in brass is a killer. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: [PRR] PRR Toll Bridges Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:42:23 -0500 OK, sports fans. Here's one from left field that has nothing to do with resin castings. I have a ticket issued by the Pennsylvania Railroad and dater died at the Western End of the Nanticoke Bridge (the date is April 24, 1893) Good for Toll of One Person between West Nanticoke and East Nanticoke. Are there any P&E experts or Sunbury Division pros who know "the rest of the story?" Did the original PRR bridge across the Susquehanna also accommodate pedestrians and wagons? Were there any other similar toll bridges on the PRR? Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Toll Bridges Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:05:02 -0500 (EST) Richard F. Makse scrivit: > > OK, sports fans. Here's one from left field that has nothing to do with > resin castings. > > I have a ticket issued by the Pennsylvania Railroad and dater died at the > Western End of the Nanticoke Bridge (the date is April 24, 1893) Good for > Toll of One Person between West Nanticoke and East Nanticoke. > > Are there any P&E experts or Sunbury Division pros who know "the rest of the > story?" Did the original PRR bridge across the Susquehanna also accommodate > pedestrians and wagons? Were there any other similar toll bridges on the > PRR? Not P&E, but one (two?) of the Cumberland Valley Railroad bridges across the Susquehanna were rail and other. Was said that the trains used to scare the **%%* out of cattle crossing the bridge! Off the top of my head, seem to remember that one of the Rockville Bridges was also a combo ... will have to check to make sure ... -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:15:42 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update The late Jim Bradley, of Stonington, Conn., who had a string of full size ex-New Haven/Pullman cars on his property (the obs may still be visible up on the hill to your right as you ride the shore line west through Stonington), had one each of every GP7/GP9 the NH ran...100% of the roster. Probably all inexpensive Athearn or such, but one of each nonetheless. Steve Bartlett SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/17/99 17:29:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com > writes: > > << Yea, but how many of us are actually trying to own "one each" of every > class!!! ;-) > >> > Ok I confess. I am attempting to model 5% of the total PRR diesel fleet and > at least one of each class. That is approximately 230 locomotives ( actual > figure is at home). Now if someone would just make all those Baldwin > switchers and a phase II GP9 in plastic I would be home free. Amassing them > in brass is a killer. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:26:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Reliving an ill-spent youth (long & barely on topic but In a message dated 2/18/99 5:26:17 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, VVA249 writes: << Ever visit Athens where "Downtown" IS "Uptown" - because it's on top of the hill and of course OU built so much in the Hocking Valley flood plain that the state finally spent millions to relocate the river.... scars of the old B&O Hocking Valley line are still visible through the campus Dick Ross >> Dick, My "visit" to Athens, Ohio, lasted three & a half years and ended (the unanimous opinion of the Scripps School of Journalism faculty was that "miraculously" was the proper adjective to describe the event) in June 1981 with award of a Bachelor of Science in Journalism (yes, the most accurately named degree, a BS in journalism). The line through Athens was the B&O's Marietta & Cincinnati in which the Pennsylvania RR invested heavily during its construction in the mid-1850s. But stockholders rejected the PRR Board's recommendation that construction funding be lent only if it received trackage rights over the completed line. The M&C was finished to Cincinnati in 1857, eight years before the PRR had a more direct route to Cincinnati than over the Fort Wayne. The C&O's Hocking Valley Ry. ran southeast out of Columbus, entered the valley that gave its name at Lancaster, Ohio, and ran the length of the valley through Logan, Nelsonville, Athens and Shade to the C&O's line on the north bank (or is it west) of the Ohio River at Hockingport. The Indiana & Ohio uses the Hocking Valley to reach Lancaster and Logan from Columbus. Also using parts of the line are the Hocking Valley Scenic Ry. and (I think) Conrail. The first moving, working steam loco I ever saw was a HVSRy ex-DM&IR 4-8-4 Berkshire crossing US 33 south of Nelsonville in 1974 (I participated in OU's extended adolescence program). The line through Athens was in heavy use during my years in Athens. Nightly at 10:05 p.m. Amtrak's "Pioneer," heading west from D.C. to Cincinnati via Charleston, W.Va., would pull in the depot just off West Union Street sounding its deafening five-chime horn with a sound vastly greater than the size of its consist -- usually just a single P40h, baggage car, sleeper, probably a diner/dorm, and a coach. It was in Athens that I realized I was a train nut. The memory of seeing a unit train of hoppers brimming with black diamonds roaring through the Ohio University campus at 40+ mph past a.m. in the rain chasing six blue & yellow EMD SD units, probably SD40s or SD45s, with three more SDs cut in as helpers halfway back still brings a lump to my throat. Close my eyes and 20 years later I can still hear rails all the way through that hairpin curve beside the dry river bed and bluffs beneath Uptown screaming as they struggled to contain locos and cars in charge of an engineer blowing any speed restrictions away. "Uptown" Athens is the only place I know where, just like countless layouts, a single track wrapped around the hilltop town. If a train was long enough the engines could be clearing the West Union Street grade crossing before the caboose reached the East Union Street crossing. The story was that Athens hilltop location had been the practical joke of drunken surveyors sent into the wilds of the Ohio country in 1803 to plat a center of great learning Boston intellectuals were founding. The Bostonians directed the surveyors to lay out the town on bottom next to the Hocking north of its current location on the site of a village most aptly named The Plains, Ohio. Ever since most of Athens stayed dry while heavy dews inundate The Plains. Why, I've even been to Moonville on the M&C in Vinton County west of Athens, site of the only known exception to a railroad's operating rules caused by paranormal phenomena. That's a tale for a different time and only if ya'll have been very, very good. Tom V. (who in his youth came very, very close to modeling the B&O's Marietta & Cincinnati line) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reliving an ill-spent youth (long & barely on topic Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:59:55 -0000 Gents: While working in Boyd dinning hall on OU's west green I looked up to see some CSX units going down the old B&O right of way. Little did I know- one week later it would all be gone. There is a good site on the web of the abandoned railroads of Athens County, plus a fellow that works in the T-Com department has a site too. (Dupler is his name I think). The Athens News (nicknamed the A-Nus by the students) had a story on the haunted Moonville tunnel. Never did figure out what or where the abandoned lines were, too busy with cars and beer in those days. Garrett Rea B.S. Environmental Geography, Ohio University 1994 -----Original Message----- From: LINESWEST@aol.com To: VVA249@aol.com Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 2:10 AM Subject: [PRR] Reliving an ill-spent youth (long & barely on topic butreal railroady) >In a message dated 2/18/99 5:26:17 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, VVA249 writes: > ><< Ever visit Athens where "Downtown" IS "Uptown" - because it's on top of the >hill and of course OU built so much in the Hocking Valley flood plain that the >state finally spent millions to relocate the river.... scars of the old B&O >Hocking Valley line are still visible through the campus > Dick Ross >> > >Dick, > > My "visit" to Athens, Ohio, lasted three & a half years and ended (the >unanimous opinion of the Scripps School of Journalism faculty was that >"miraculously" was the proper adjective to describe the event) in June 1981 >with award of a Bachelor of Science in Journalism (yes, the most accurately >named degree, a BS in journalism). > The line through Athens was the B&O's Marietta & Cincinnati in which the >Pennsylvania RR invested heavily during its construction in the mid-1850s. But >stockholders rejected the PRR Board's recommendation that construction funding >be lent only if it received trackage rights over the completed line. The M&C >was finished to Cincinnati in 1857, eight years before the PRR had a more >direct route to Cincinnati than over the Fort Wayne. > The C&O's Hocking Valley Ry. ran southeast out of Columbus, entered the >valley that gave its name at Lancaster, Ohio, and ran the length of the valley >through Logan, Nelsonville, Athens and Shade to the C&O's line on the north >bank (or is it west) of the Ohio River at Hockingport. The Indiana & Ohio uses >the Hocking Valley to reach Lancaster and Logan from Columbus. Also using >parts of the line are the Hocking Valley Scenic Ry. and (I think) Conrail. The >first moving, working steam loco I ever saw was a HVSRy ex-DM&IR 4-8-4 >Berkshire crossing US 33 south of Nelsonville in 1974 (I participated in OU's >extended adolescence program). > The line through Athens was in heavy use during my years in Athens. Nightly >at 10:05 p.m. Amtrak's "Pioneer," heading west from D.C. to Cincinnati via >Charleston, W.Va., would pull in the depot just off West Union Street sounding >its deafening five-chime horn with a sound vastly greater than the size of its >consist -- usually just a single P40h, baggage car, sleeper, probably a >diner/dorm, and a coach. > It was in Athens that I realized I was a train nut. The memory of seeing a >unit train of hoppers brimming with black diamonds roaring through the Ohio >University campus at 40+ mph past a.m. in the rain chasing six blue & yellow >EMD SD units, probably SD40s or SD45s, with three more SDs cut in as helpers >halfway back still brings a lump to my throat. Close my eyes and 20 years >later I can still hear rails all the way through that hairpin curve beside the >dry river bed and bluffs beneath Uptown screaming as they struggled to contain >locos and cars in charge of an engineer blowing any speed restrictions away. > "Uptown" Athens is the only place I know where, just like countless layouts, >a single track wrapped around the hilltop town. If a train was long enough the >engines could be clearing the West Union Street grade crossing before the >caboose reached the East Union Street crossing. > The story was that Athens hilltop location had been the practical joke of >drunken surveyors sent into the wilds of the Ohio country in 1803 to plat a >center of great learning Boston intellectuals were founding. The Bostonians >directed the surveyors to lay out the town on bottom next to the Hocking north >of its current location on the site of a village most aptly named The Plains, >Ohio. Ever since most of Athens stayed dry while heavy dews inundate The >Plains. > Why, I've even been to Moonville on the M&C in Vinton County west of Athens, >site of the only known exception to a railroad's operating rules caused by >paranormal phenomena. That's a tale for a different time and only if ya'll >have been very, very good. > >Tom V. >(who in his youth came very, very close to modeling the B&O's Marietta & >Cincinnati line) > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:37:56 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4 PRR 5038 Ted Andrews wrote: > > > PRR Gang: > > About a month ago, one of you posted a thread for regarding a K-4 number > 5038. This was the K-4 that had the large smoke deflectors and smokestack > manifold. You were looking for a photogragh the left hand side of the > engine since nearly all photos were of the right hand side. Well, I found > a photo of the left-hand side! > > Check the "Keystone," September 1982, on page 31. Your suspicions were > correct. The left hand side deflector was slightly different from that on > the right hand side. > > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > (Planning on modeling the 5038 using the Bachmann K-4--someday........) > > The alt.binaries.pictures.rail newsgroup posted a picture of this loco. I didn't save the photographer's name so I won't put it on my web page, but I'll upload it to the following url for a short time: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/temp/k4_5038.jpg -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm Just added photos to Erie, Wheatland, Linesville, & Shenango (Bruin tower) pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:39:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update Rich, The phase 2 GP-9 is available from TRAINS UNLIMITED (ex-Front Range) with an Athearn drive. I know, I know, someone is going to say that the Side grills are wrong. But I have never met anyone who has actually put a scale rule to the shell. They have just heard it or read it in a UP article in Mainline Modeler from a guy who never corrected the cab window size, which I know to be a problem because I measured it and corrected it in my article on the PRR GP-7's years ago. No need to wait for the Life Like as far as I am concerned, it may never arrive. Their sales were so bad with the Phase 3 we amy never see it, great marketing Life Like! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] tender question Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:16:45 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01BE5B8C.5ED7C2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Elliot--The tender on H10s 9624 is either a 80P81a or a 80F81a. The = Keystone Vol 20 No. 1, Spring 1987, has a great article on tenders for = H9/H10 locos. 7688 at the museum in Strasburg has this same class = tender. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; steamloco@onelist.com = Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 3:19 AM Subject: [PRR] tender question =20 =20 Hello, I recently acquired a copy of Pennsy Power by Stauffer, and I have a = question for those of you who are far more knowledgible than I am. (That = includes just about everyone.) On page 43 there is a photo of H10s # = 9624. Can anybody identify the tender class? Thanks in advance. =20 Elliot = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products = and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See = http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to = "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01BE5B8C.5ED7C2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Elliot--The tender on H10s 9624 is = either a=20 80P81a or a 80F81a.  The Keystone Vol 20 No. 1, Spring 1987, has a = great=20 article on tenders for H9/H10 locos.  7688 at the museum in = Strasburg has=20 this same class tender.
Steve = Hoxie
Pensacola FL
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk <fishbein@ezaccess.net>
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>; steamloco@onelist.com = <steamloco@onelist.com>
Date:=20 Thursday, February 18, 1999 3:19 AM
Subject: [PRR] = tender=20 question

Hello,
I recently acquired a copy of = Pennsy Power by Stauffer, and I have a question for those of = you who=20 are far more knowledgible than I am. (That includes just about = everyone.) On=20 page 43 there is a photo of H10s # 9624. Can anybody identify the = tender=20 class? Thanks in=20 = advance.

Elliot
-----------------------------------------------= ------------------------=20 THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union = Station=20 Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See=20 http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = Join=20 our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = For=20 assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message=20 "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems = persist,=20 contact = "listmaster@dsop.com".
------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01BE5B8C.5ED7C2A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] 4 wheel critter Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:31:55 -0500 Hi All! I was just looking at a photo of PRR 3907, a 4 wheel switcher, in the Diesel Spotters Guide. I never noticed this thing before. It looks like something that would appear on Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends! Does anyone know of any other photos of this unit or it's two sisters on line? What about plans? This thing is so bizarre that I might just want to make a model of it sometime, in my spare time! <;-) Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] PRR Great Lakes Steamer !! Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:22:27 -0500 ****Worth a L@@K is ebay # 66449601, a postcard of the PRR Great Lakes Steamship "Octorara". BTW, no matter what Meta Medical Mark Mused, Eric H. said that Lake Boats could NEVER stand ocean travel........ bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:00:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR R-50-B In a message dated 2/19/99 12:10:54 AM Mountain Standard Time, TGREGMRTN writes: << Just reflecting on the R-50B and I realize they made their way west, but were they seen also in the South in numbers close to that of cars going west? I guess they were likely involved in the Pacific Northwest Berry Harvest with goods going west to east as well as east to west. I was also told they would carry perishable pharmaceuticals (insulin, etc.) anyone care to comment on that one? >> I would suspect that they were used in Southeastern produce shipments to Northern markets. Plus, I would also include in that, express shipments of live plants and flowers. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:10:54 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR R-50-B Evening, Just reflecting on the R-50B and I realize they made their way west, but were they seen also in the South in numbers close to that of cars going west? I guess they were likely involved in the Pacific Northwest Berry Harvest with goods going west to east as well as east to west. I was also told they would carry perishable pharmaceuticals (insulin, etc.) anyone care to comment on that one? This car is screaming to be produced by a major manufacturer in styrene. The trucks alone could be utilized on the B-60B's. The sales of the recent brass run I have heard sold quickly, let this be a lesson for the manufacturers out there that if the car sell well in brass it is a pretty good bet that it will sell well in plastic ... resin, well that is a horse of a different color. Resin still only seems to attract a certain modeler. This hobby is in need of some good headend equipment and this car would be a great starting point, although I would buy several, I do not believe an REA 1947 all Steel Express Reefer would sell in nearly the numbers as the R-50b would sell. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:24:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] 4 wheel critter On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > Hi All! I was just looking at a photo of PRR 3907, a 4 wheel switcher, in > the Diesel Spotters Guide. I never noticed this thing before. It looks > like something that would appear on Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends! > Does anyone know of any other photos of this unit or it's two sisters on > line? What about plans? This thing is so bizarre that I might just want to > make a model of it sometime, in my spare time! <;-) PRR Hudson to Horseshoe: p 58, 2 shots of 3907 (color) Pennsy Power 3: p 299, 2 shots of 3906 Pennsy Diesel Power Review: p. 10, 1 shot of 3907 " p.66,67 6 shots, 23906, 1 of a partially cut up unit (3906?) and 3 of 3907 PDY-1 p 9, 1 shot 3907 somewhat derelict (color) Pennsy Power 2: p 212, 2 shots, 1 3905, 1 3907 -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:09:34 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Great Lakes Steamer !! >****Worth a L@@K is ebay # 66449601, a postcard of the PRR Great Lakes >Steamship "Octorara". > >BTW, no matter what Meta Medical Mark Mused, Eric H. said that Lake Boats >could NEVER stand ocean travel........ bill**** NEVER say NEVER! I stayed out of the original discussion, but I feel that I have to jump in here! It all depends on what you mean by "lake boats". If you are refering to the long ore boats of the great lakes, then you are mostly correct (although many of these vessels were capable of ocean travel, they rarely did). However, there were a great many vessels which did (and do) travel both the Great Lakes and the world's Oceans. Amongst these were the Lakers...a WWI version predecessor of the Liberty ship (a GREAT series on Lakers recently in Mainline Modeler). The Octorara, pictured on the postcard, appears to be a passenger steamer, and as such, ran a regular lake route. A second note of caution...any idea you might have that the Great Lakes were a more sheltered body of water than the open ocean should be immediately dismissed. The lakes are, to all intenets, fresh water seas, with tides, and some hellacious storms. Add in the hazards of narrow waterways, shoals, lee shores etc, and many a great lakes sailor will tell you that when the weather acts up, they'd rather be anywhere else! Happy SAILS, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:33:49 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] R60 info I thought y'all might find this interesting...I did! >Dear Dr. Smith, > >I have located ONE photo of the R60 in use, on the Long Island RR, being >hauled as a one-car train behind a DD-1 side rod electric, westbound on >the Atlantic Branch near Clarenceville heading (probably) toward the >large Sheffield milk plant in Brooklyn. This plant received milk from >New York State west of the Hudson, as well as from dairy farms nearby on >the western half of Long Island. Date of the photo is late 1930's >judging by the paint scheme on the locomotive. The car is dirty and no >lettering is visible, although no lettering is visible on the loco >either, and we know it had lettering on its flanks. Naturally, this is a >front "wedge-shot" which shows the front of the engine well but the car >behind is foreshortened. The R60's battery box is to the right of the >door, unlike the Railworks model which has it to the left. The louvers >are visible to the left and right of the door. > >Reference to the diagram on p. 8 of Wayner's PRR diagram book (1981 >version) shows the R60 to have two interior compartments separated by >bulkheads from a central entry vestibule or foyer, located between the >large side doors. The main side doors are shown as one-piece swinging, >not sliding. Both are hinged toward the same end of the car. The >Railwoks model has a groove etched down the center of the door as if it >is two leaves, but the drawing shows this is not so. The central door >compartment is 7'-6" from bulkhead to bulkhead. Each of the interior >bulkhead doors is swinging, hinged on opposite sides of the car, and are >about 2'-6" wide, only wide enough for a man carrying or rolling a milk >can along the ground. The two main compartments are 23'-0" long, and >have the ice bunkers at the ends (adding about another 3') under the >roof hatches. The walls are heavily insulated. I speculate that the >louvers on the exterior walls are ventilators to allow some air to >circulate when the cars were opened to dry out between runs, as milk >cars were prone to sour milk smell and the growth of bacteria if left >damp. The NYC put louvers along the lower edges of the exterior walls >of their milk cars for just such purpose. I'm sometimes not convinced of the accuracy of these drawings...I wonder if many of them aren't how it was "supposed to be"? Of course, lacking photos...we don't have a lot to go on! The Railworks car has square windows, much like the original windows on the B60, whereas the PRRT&HS passenger car painting and lettering book has the FUTURA lettering diagram for an R60 showing round windows. I wonder if they were modified? >The diagram in Wayner also shows the battery box to the right of the >door, unlike the model. The height over the roof (not including the >hatches) is only 13'-0", so the model must be modified to get it to "sit >down," by replacing the center truck mounting pegs with 2-56 screws >(drilled and tapped into the car floor) and reforming the truck bolster >so it dips about 3 scale inches in the center. I removed the side >bearing bolsters (easy to unsolder) and will replace them with shorter >styrene blocks, in the interest of operation. For a display-only model, >the brass side bearers as done by Railworks are OK. I THOUGHT it looked a little high. I had to use one of the Kadee drop knuckle couples to get the couplers at the right height. >The configuration of the car is such that it seems to be a milk can car >first and foremost, although the LIRR shipped fish and bivalves in >quantity as well. PRR express reefers would go out from Long Island to >points west, maybe on the main line of the PRR, etc. The R50b express >cars were seen all over the US, but I do not know how far the R60s >wandered, nor do I know where else they were used beside the one >photographed on Long Island! > > The earlier R50 (not R50b) was very similar to the R60, except it had a >more square box car look, and was specificaly described as a Milk Can >Car in the 1919 Car Builders's Dictionary. The R-50b seems to have been >conceived as a general purpose car, probably to replace all earlier >types. > >The 1948 listing of equipment posted by Rich Orr shows R60 numbers to be >5701-5736 (thirty seven numbers) but only 26 are listed in sevice. Were >the rest scrapped, or were they sold to the LIRR? Unless one can see >car numbers in photos, or have hard data like rosters, one can never >tell, as the LIRR used quite a bit of PRR equipment lettered as PRR, as >well as re-lettered for LIRR, depending on whether it was lent or >bought. I looked at the Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (1953) at KC (http://kc.pennsyrr.com) for car numbers...%^$%%*&@% AAR designations! Guess I figured it out eventually Interesting...the R-60 numbers are 5726 to 5735, but the listing says there are only 3 cars...guess the rest were scrapped by '53. >Have you come across any information on where, and for what, R60s were >used? -- Regards, Robert Livingston > Not a clue! I plan to use mine as part of the "Mushroom Train", which was a daily(?) fixture on the Octoraro Branch. I know R50bs were used for this service, which ran as a passenger extra, and was designed to meet the "clockers" to deliver cars of fresh mushrooms to NYC the same day. Given their passenger car fittings, I can certainly imagine R60s in this service as well. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:21:04 -0500 Greg, Sorry to have joined in on this thread so late, but I cannot hold back any longer. I cannot agree with you on this one. There is absolutely nothing that you can do to the old Front Range/Trains Unlimited GP9 to bring it up to par with the newer P2K Geeps -- nothing. I dare say that I have build as many or more diesels than most people and I do believe that I know what I am talking about. Any effort at building an early GP9 with that old model is at least for me, time and resources wasted as Life-Like will offer an early GP9. There are so many other good projects to work on in the meantime. Are we so patient that we will throw our resources away so freely? By the time y'all get your PRR GP7s, late GP9s, and GP30s done, not to mention the PRR SD7 and SD9 models done (that I have yet to see in PRR paint any magazine article) the P2K early GP9 will be here and getting old already. Sorry brother Greg, Six -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: SUVCWORR@aol.com Cc: PRR-TAlk@dsop.com Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update >Rich, > The phase 2 GP-9 is available from TRAINS UNLIMITED (ex-Front Range) with an >Athearn drive. I know, I know, someone is going to say that the Side grills >are wrong. But I have never met anyone who has actually put a scale rule to >the shell. They have just heard it or read it in a UP article in Mainline >Modeler from a guy who never corrected the cab window size, which I know to be >a problem because I measured it and corrected it in my article on the PRR >GP-7's years ago. No need to wait for the Life Like as far as I am concerned, >it may never arrive. Their sales were so bad with the Phase 3 we amy never >see it, great marketing Life Like! >Greg Martin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Lake Boats... Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:47:20 -0500 ***Hi, Bruce, and thx....seems like some mis-communications here.. When I refer to "lake boats" I mean just that. Boats designed for lake usage. According to several industry professionals, ocean going vessels can accommodate any and all conditions, so an ocean vessel can travel the (by comparison) calmer lakes. Not discounting severe weather conditions at all, But...lake boats were not / are not built to handle the differing period of waves, etc encountered on an ocean voyage. They are custom designed for the lake conditions. Even then, there are problems, as some wrecks were *thought* to be caused by lake conditions just too rough / too ocean-like in effect, and the structures could not handle that stress. ( getting hit by waves at a period more similar to ocean conditions, less like 'normal' lake conditions...). Lake boat serves as the restrictive title, whereas if the vessel was capable of ocean travel, it would be an 'ocean-going' vessel, rated to the highest capability, and capable of lesser, also. Just as down this way we have 'Bay Boats" and 'River Boats' and 'ocean boats' for dinner cruises, etc. The bay boats are restricted, the River boats also, and the ocean going are welcome to travel either side of the sandy spit of the barrier island. Dr. Mark's Musings and 'guess' was specifically that the Lake ore boats *could* travel out and around to Baltimore, etc, and this is where the thread started, when I stated that was not my belief. Very graciously, he *agreed* to defer to 'professional' lake boat folks knowledge, which I sought to substantiate my basic = but correct = statement. I justy wanted a brief line inserted to end that thread, but this should do it. For the PRR non-nautical, sorry for the space usage....bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:40:21 -0500 From: Mike Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Lake Boats... Just to carry the PRR-relatedness of lake boats a bit further...the PRR's fleet of lakers, including passenger vessels, could not travel beyond the lakes to salt water because they could not navigate the St Lawrence River. Before the opening of the Seaway in 1959, this passage was navigable only by the shallowest draft vessels. By the time of the Seaway's opening, of course, the PRR's fleet was history. And when the Seaway was finally opened, it helped to kill the PRR's ore traffic down from Erie via Norry & points south & east. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Lake Boats... Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:55:40 -0500 (EST) Getting rather far afield here, but here goes, pending a "shut up" from Jerry for being off topic... Bill Strassner writes: > When I refer to "lake boats" I mean just that. Boats designed for lake > usage. Taken aline, this statement does not help the argument. It is a logical truism that if X is designed for condition Y [only], it cannot be used under condition Z. But that is a corruption of the question at hand. The question is (and was), could [Great] Lake[s] Boats boats be used on the open ocean? I guess this itself could have been better clarified. What does Lake Boats mean? I took it to mean boats _used_ primarily on the Great Lakes (excluding ocean vessels making _occasional_ trips). I interpreted it that way for what are IMHO entirely reasonable reasons, since, as I've summarized above, it would hardly be worth asking the question if we restricted it (the question) to boats _designed specifically for_ the Lakes. (I could go into the question of whether boats designed for the Lakes is a proper subset, improper subset, superset, or other, of boats that primarily run on the Lakes, but I won't.) > According to several industry professionals, ocean going vessels can > accommodate any and all conditions, so an ocean vessel can travel the (by > comparison) calmer lakes. > Not discounting severe weather conditions at all, But...lake boats were not > / are not built to handle the differing period of waves, etc encountered on > an ocean voyage. But your answer (which I am still researching further, BTW), is not the whole story. One other reason that some vessels are restricted to the Lakes is that their engines are designed to be cooled by fresh water, and are not properly designed to use salt water. A design issue which has absolutely *nothing* to do with waves. Another design issue is that many Lakers have flat bows to increase their capacity - though my source did not know whether or how this would affect them, and I am researching this one further as well. > They are custom designed for the lake conditions. Even then, there are > problems, as some wrecks were *thought* to be caused by lake conditions just > too rough / too ocean-like in effect, and the structures could not handle > that stress. ( getting hit by waves at a period more similar to ocean > conditions, less like 'normal' lake conditions...). I have references that say that your last statement is not correct -- are you perhaps interpreting the statements of your source? > Lake boat serves as the restrictive title, whereas if the vessel was capable > of ocean travel, it would be an 'ocean-going' vessel, rated to the highest > capability, and capable of lesser, also. False. One reason is the engine issue I pointed out above. 'Highest capability' (a nebulous term, that) does NOT ipso facto imply 'capability of lesser'. You cannot use a 14" screwdriver to reattach the earpiece to your glasses. And in like manner, ship dimensions can restrict vessels. Many ocean-going vessels (supertankers, e.g.) simply will not fit. > Dr. Mark's Musings and 'guess' was specifically that the Lake ore boats Oh. And BTW. I have yet to see name mangling help an argument. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:00:27 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Lake Boats? Hi folks... Ok if you guys want my input or not on this here it is... I work for Norfolk Shipbuilding and Drydock Corp. of Norfolk, Va. I at present work as their sign painter...before that i worked as a Blacksmith for five years in the Blacksmith shop here. I'm not a shipbuilding engineer but i do feel i can add to this debate a bit since i am exposed to this subject in a way. At the shipyard and also other near here we get ALL kinds of ships and boats (I won't go into the difference between a ship and a boat here. Thats its own subject.) The company i work for has worked on everything between small 100 ft. long personal yachts to close to 1000 ft long passenger liners and container ships. From time to time we get ships that could fall into both being a lake type boat and a ocean going ship. One that comes to mind are Gypsum carriers. They are built to be able to navigate both types of waterways. There are also ships that are primarily built for great lakes work,but are also used near the coast.(such as Dredges). Then there are those that have come in that are clearly built for lake service,but have been modified for ocean service. Note MODIFIED for ocean service. It is also true that some built for lake service cannot be used for ocean service because of the boiler,engines and such. In this case if they are modified for ocean service they will have the engines and engines related equipment changed or modified for this service. Also the USCG and The ABS(American Bureau of Ships) can decide if a certain class or type of vessel can be used for one or the other or both. In some cases older ocean going vessels are downgraded to coastal or lakes service depending if a given vessel can do so within limits. Heck the shipyard i work for works on historical reproductions of ships of the 1600's that crossed the ocean and these little boats have barely 10 ft of freeboard (sides above the water) and 100 ft long. And our ancestors crossed the ocean in ships like these. Another case are ships built for coastal or lake service that were pressed into or modified for ocean service. An example of this would be the Chesapeake Bay steamboats that were taken over by the Maritime adminstration during WWII, slightly modified (such as bow reenforcements and addisional frame bracing) and run as troop transports between the US and England. Many expected this boats not to make it to the other side of the big pond ,and some did'nt,but not because of their design. Some even went back and forth a few times before the end of the war. A couple of these were formerly owned by the PRR. One other example was the Greek tug Epta...This tug was bought by the PRR from the US Army after WWII and used in Chesapeake Bay carfloat service for many many years...then later it was sold and ran across the ocean to Greece where it at last report was still in service. For those wanting to know its PRR name...see Jerry's site under the hobo's guide and the Delmarva listings. So just like the PRR you can never say never with any type of ships. To me though....ships such as the well known Ore carriers are built for lake service...but if pressed into it could run on the ocean. You all have fun with this..... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:41:49 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Great Lakes Steamer !! In a message dated 2/19/99 8:27:14 AM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Add in the hazards of narrow waterways, shoals, lee shores etc, and many a great lakes sailor will tell you that when the weather acts up, they'd rather be anywhere else! >> I have heard anecdotally that many sea captains would prefer a storm in the North Atlantic to one in the Great Lakes. Has to do with the relative shallowness of some of the Great Lakes, the harmonic wave motion set up thereby, etc. I know one of the most dangerous bass fishing spots in Southern Indiana was a shallow (10 feet) cooling lake for a power plant. Boats were warned to head for shore at the least sign of a storm for the same reason of Physics. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lake Boats Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:19:50 -0500 I have been reading with a great deal of interest this whole discussion about Lake Boats. It occurred to me that back in the days of the Joint Companies, perhaps some of the canal boats used on the PRR's Delaware and Raritan Canal might have set out on the ocean. I do wonder, however, how those early canalers dealt with poling in the Atlantic. Fairly large poles, I would guess. And what about the donkeys since the closest towpath (other than New Jersey) was probably in Europe. No doubt very long tow lines. I suspect, however, that if the Canal boats did set out to sea that they only lasted a short distance. I'm told that nobody was able to get comments from either the canalers or the donkeys... Dick Makse (Watching the action at Lock #9 in Griggstown) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] the PRR Lake boats...names...of the three... Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:18:16 -0500 ***Besides the "Octorara" in the postcard, another pal remembered the "Juniata", now only one more missing name...began with a "T"...??? All from rivers nowhere near the Great Lakes.... Thx to all for messages, help, information, etc.!!! Good weekend, bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:19:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Looking for N6a photos... In a message dated 2/17/99 11:04:04 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, cschlund@sfsu.edu writes: << I've got a question for you all. I'm currently kitbashing a PRR class N6a cabin car. This was the "Lines West" variant of the more-commonly-seen N6b. The difference was in the cupola - the N6a had a much larger, wider cupola than the N6b did. >> Claus, It's called a "Lines West" cupola, was nearly seven inches wider than the 9'4" wide carbody and stood 14'2" from the railhead. Between 1927 and 1957 more than 700 N6As were rebuilt into centered cupola N6Bs as part of the clearance improvement program. By 1957 867 of the PRR's 2,114 cabin cars were N6Bs and only one N6A A picture of N6A 981659 taken at Lebanon, Ohio in 1939 is on p.270 of Narrow Gauge in Ohio, the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Railway by John W. Hauck. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] D&R Canal.... Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:20:00 -0500 ****Hi, Dick- We * have * to get together !!! As I can show you the Canal signals that we found near old MG Tower / Shack. And those Right near Lalor Street. Plus I have the 1920-ish plans for all of those Trenton Towers that perished 1930-ish, I can show you the locations. Ummm, bring yer armor......We will report to "The List" if we live to make it home.....???? Barry, did Dad ever leave you at Trenton if you were bad..??? hahaha, bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] ECW B60 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:42:17 -0000 Gents- I am building an ECW B60 this evening. Very nice and easy kit- I am enjoying it, just wish I had done it before my E&B/ECW lightweight Pullman A/F cars (New Haven/PC). Any tips on building this car? Also, are the trucks worth retaining, or should I go with another truck (I never could get the E&B ones right)? Some of these cars got freight trucks: what type, were they certain cars, and did PC keep any? Thanks- Garrett Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] D&R Canal.... Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:52:42 -0500 Bill wrote: >>We * have * to get together !!! As I can show you the Canal signals that we >>found near old MG Tower / Shack. And those Right near Lalor Street. >>Plus I have the 1920-ish plans for all of those Trenton Towers that >perished The only hint that there were position light signals controlling boat movements on the canal was in some operating rules for the canal that I saw posted in one of the lock houses years ago. While it appears that MG controlled these signals, they were actually controlled by A Cabin in Coalport which explains why A Cabin never had a designation as a block station. UN apparently also controlled canal signals; perhaps your blueprints show them although I am not certain when they were removed. Certainly needs more research. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] D&R Canal.... Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:58:50 -0500 Bill wrote: >>We * have * to get together !!! As I can show you the Canal signals that we >>found near old MG Tower / Shack. And those Right near Lalor Street. >>Plus I have the 1920-ish plans for all of those Trenton Towers that >perished The only hint that there were position light signals controlling boat movements on the canal was in some operating rules for the canal that I saw posted in one of the lock houses years ago. While it appears that MG controlled these signals, they were actually controlled by A Cabin in Coalport which explains why A Cabin never had a designation as a block station. UN apparently also controlled canal signals; perhaps your blueprints show them although I am not certain when they were removed. Certainly needs more research. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:58:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW B60 Garrett, I myself never recalled seeing a photo of a B-60 with freight trucks. The PRR did use Kiesel style passenger trucks similar or identical to that on K-4 tenders on some of these cars. Someone else may have moe info on this than me. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:46:49 EST Subject: [PRR] P2K GP30 In my searches, I don't find PRR listed in the roadnames for first release of this loco. Can anyone confirm this one way or t'other? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] B60 Trucks Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:41:14 -0000 Garrett, I myself never recalled seeing a photo of a B-60 with freight trucks. The PRR did use Kiesel style passenger trucks similar or identical to that on K-4 tenders on some of these cars. Someone else may have moe info on this than me. Gary Gary- You are right, found a photo in Morning Sun PRR paint Vol 2, B60 in with the cabins issued to passenger service, not with the other baggage cars. Clearly the tender-style trucks. Looks like I will go with some old Roundhouse "PRR roller-bearing" trucks w/P2K wheels- the car is sitting on them now and it looks good. Thanks- Car is done except paint, roof, and minor details. Too easy, too quick..... What green best matches PC PASSENGER (not freight jade) out there? Now to buy and build a few more....very nice kit! Garrett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] Help-Parts for BP-20 Shark Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:25:43 -0600 A little Athearn help please. Needed for Miracle Castings BP-20's: Athearn PA trucks come without worm gear assembly and top cover/housing, which, of course, are required. Also need same parts for Athearn GP9 drive. Can anyone provide the correct part numbers for these parts and a source? Thanks! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 06:38:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Hello PRR Fans; We at Rail Classics have announced a new project that we believe will be of great interest to PRR modelers. The F-38 Heavy Duty Flat Car, information on this car can be seen at our web site www.railclassics.com If any of you have info on the following PRR items, E-Mail us at railclas@erols.com PRR Wood Water Tanks PRR Elevated Crossing Sheds PRR Signal Bridges PRR Overhead Steam Loco Tender Water Bridge PRR Hand Cars Thanks EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 07:08:05 EST Subject: [PRR] Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines Thought I would pass along a few curiosities that I found in a strange atlas called "Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines. This aged and decaying hardback folio is decorated with a red and yellow keystone with "Pennsylvania Lines" across the keystone in two diagonal lines. Under the red keystone is the legend "Look at the Map". The title page shows this atlas copyright 1905 by E.A.Ford, Passenger Traffic Manager, Pittsburgh PA. We can guess that Mr. Ford was an official of Lines West. What follows is a set of maps covering the lines of the Pennsylvania Railroad. These maps are of a different style than the accounting maps, but towns are shown on PRR lines at least as densely. Some interesting points: 1. An overall 2-page Pennsy map titled "The Pennsylvania System of Railways" is subtitled "Connecting the West with the East, via Chicago, via St. Louis, via Cincinnati". 2. On "Lines in Illinois and Missouri", a PRR line is shown west from Logansport IN, through Farmdale and Peoria, to Keokuk on the Mississippi (part of this must be the TP&W, but I'm not sure about all of it). This line is met by the Peoria Branch near Peoria; at least the Peoria Branch looks familiar. Also, there's a short branch off this line at La Harpe, IL going to Burlington IA. 3. Also, near Chicago the Panhandle passenger line is shown continuing from Bernice IL, through Dolton, Belt Crossing, and West Madison Street to go in the north side of Chicago Union Station. Wonder if this implies long-haul trains or perhaps some commuter service went around that way? 4. Near St. Louis, the Panhandle/Vandalia line is shown as Collinsville IL- Caseyville-Griswold-East St. Louis IL. I don't know if this represents the old or new alignment that brought the PRR down the hill into East St. Louis and Rose Lake yard. 5. On "Lines in Indiana and Kentucky", the Chicago line into Logansport is shown as both a direct approach to Logansport, and as a cutoff leaving the main southeast of Royal Center and going straight south to Trimmer IN. On later maps, this cutoff is the only route and is shown as joining the Effner line at Kenneth instead of Trimmer. Also, in 1905, the South Bend branch and the Logansport-Butler IN line are passenger railroads. This is astounding, especially since Butler is in the middle of nowhere at a Wabash interchange almost on the Ohio line) 6. On the same Indiana/KY map, the Pennsy runs from Logansport to Indianapolis via Anoka-Kokomo-Tipton-Noblesville-Castleton. Indy-area fans will understand this was PRR's trackage rights over the NKP or NKP-predecessor Lake Erie & Western. By the same token, the heavy coal-traffic line we know as the I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) between Ben Davis IN and Frankfort IN hasn't yet been built in 1905. PRR routes from the east to Logansport and to Indy are labeled "Pan Handle Route". 7. Again, in Indiana, the PRR cutoff between Cambridge City IN and Columbus IN is intact. This line once let through trains from Richmond IN and points east access Louisville KY without passing through Indy. The bypass route was once important, but was downgraded early in the 20th century. 8. On "Lines in Ohio", the newly standard-gauged Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern from Court Street Station (Cincinnati) north to Lebanon OH is passenger country, but the Lytle-Dayton segment (Dayton, Lebanon, & Cincinnati) is not. This changed before 1920, with extensive commuter service from Lytle/Centerville OH north to Washington Street Station, Dayton. The Clement-Hempstead branch off the DL&C isn't passenger in 1905 either, but never will be again. 9. Again, on the Ohio map, I've rarely seen so many stations listed between Xenia and Dayton: Trebein's, Alpha, Shoup's, Hawker's, and Clement in 14 miles. And the Springfield Branch lists 9 intermediate stops between Xenia and the end-of-track at Springfield (wow, if you're from that neck of the woods). Reminds you of some interurban maps. 10. And once more on the Ohio map, the Sandusky Branch shows an East Columbus that is straight north of Columbus (goofy if you know the area). But for you Honda drivers and Scotts lawn care products users, Marysville OH on the Columbus-Bradford route is nowhere to be seen. 11. On a detail of the Ohio map, the Cincinnati area includes "Pendleton Shops", ancestral yard/engine terminal of the PRR/Little Miami Railroad line from Xenia to Cincinnati. In later years, Pendleton was famous as the home of USRA L2's, and later yet, the engine terminal of orange diesel power off DT&I runthroughs. 12. "Lines in Michigan" shows 5 branches off the Grand Rapids & Indiana between Grand Rapids and Mackinaw City. 13. "Lines in Pennsylvania and West Virginia" doesn't show the Muleshoe Curve route west of Hollidaysburg, probably on the grounds that it was always a freight bypass. Naturally, it does show Kitanning Point and Gallitzin as passenger stops, but also Allegrippus, Bennington, and Furnace; I've never heard of any passenger facilities at these last 3 points. At 21 pages, this desk-blotter size volume has an index of all town names and was obviously widely circulated for the use of passenger department ticket agents. Has anyone else ever seen this piece? Before you ask for copies - don't. It's not mine. Rick Tipton Watching for PRR Lines West materials. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K GP30 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 08:05:03 -0000 In my searches, I don't find PRR listed in the roadnames for first release of >this loco. Can anyone confirm this one way or t'other? This model has upper and lower (cab and nose) headlamps, PRR had upper only, thus no PRR paint. Garrett Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:37:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 Trucks In a message dated 2/21/99 12:28:47 AM Central Standard Time, glrea@earthlink.net writes: << Clearly the tender-style trucks >> May be Kiesel design, but I'm not sure if they are that close to tender trucks. If you can find them, CapeLine had metal trucks which, although not as detailed as the ECW, are very good runners. For once in my life I planned ahead and bought three sets for my three BCW B60s. Look and run good. Don't know if the new owner of tooling will reissue: they are reissuing some of the old ones in plastic. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:32:57 EST Subject: [PRR] B60 Trucks Folks, Someone had been asking about trucks for the (now) BCW B60. I recall an article in RMJ or MRING that described the construction of this kit. In this article the author did three cars, one each with ECW 4 wheel trucks, Bowser Kiesel (is that the right spelling?) tender trucks and MDC Pennsy 4 wheel roller bearing trucks. NJ's book on Pennsy heavyweights lists the following truck types as having been used on B60's: 2D-P2, 2D-P3, 2D-P5, 2D-5P2, 2D-5P1 AND 2D-3P1. Which of these is available from ECW nad put under the BCW car I don't know, perhaps some member can say. For my money the MDC trucks are a smooth rolling bargain. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:10:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K GP30 BOB, You are correct, LL is not bringing a PRR out in the 1st run. This maybe why. The first release is a GP-30 phase 2. Phase 2 had a different cab set up where as the seating arrangment has two seats on the firemens side, one behind the other and one on the right for the engineer. On PRR GP-30s the seating arranment was 3 seat straight across. This is just a guess but maybe LifeLike is going to change cab styles for their second run. Their first release includes N&W, which the model will be wrong becuase they had high hoods. So maybe LL won't go to that extreme in changing cab styles. Someone else may have more info. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:31:10 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K GP30 On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, doloris mittner wrote: > BOB, > > You are correct, LL is not bringing a PRR out in the 1st run. This > maybe why. The first release is a GP-30 phase 2. Phase 2 had a > different cab set up where as the seating arrangment has two seats on > the firemens side, one behind the other and one on the right for the > engineer. On PRR GP-30s the seating arranment was 3 seat straight > across. This is just a guess but maybe LifeLike is going to change cab > styles for their second run. Their first release includes N&W, which the > model will be wrong becuase they had high hoods. So maybe LL won't go to > that extreme in changing cab styles. Someone else may have more info. Why will it be wrong? Did you forget some N&W GP30s came from NKP? Also, thus far I've seen no list that includes a separate phase for different cab seating arrangements; Has anyone even told Life-Like about the PRR seating style, cause if not, yeah, I'd bet they leave it alone! -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen Foster" Subject: Re: [PRR] Help-Parts for BP-20 Shark Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:09:00 -0600 Send Athearn a SSAE with request for the parts list (instruction Sheet) for the PA. When it arrives have your hobby shop order the parts you need. One of our local dealers in Houston, TSTX, maintains an inventory of Athearn parts also. They advertise in MR and would probably fill a mail order if you called them. keep your rails shiny Stephen Visit our Website http://members.tripod.com/~Engine99/apn.htm -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Hoxie To: PRR Talk List Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 12:54 AM Subject: [PRR] Help-Parts for BP-20 Shark >A little Athearn help please. Needed for Miracle Castings BP-20's: Athearn >PA trucks come without worm gear assembly and top cover/housing, which, of >course, are required. Also need same parts for Athearn GP9 drive. Can >anyone provide the correct part numbers for these parts and a source? >Thanks! > >Steve Hoxie >Pensacola FL > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:21:04 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [pcl] PRR R-50-B Bill, Perhaps most outspoken guys on this list forgot the power of the PENNSY and Santa Fe buyers nationwide. I agree that perhaps the REA car would sell as well as the R-50B. The brass companies have not, and make a pretty good living at it. But the best selling piece of Headend equipment would be the Pullman Standard Troop Sleeper. It may very well out sell the other two, but that isn't a reefer then is it. But how many of us bought Athearn's Express Reefer kit when it hit the market in the 70's years ago and what did it represent, certainly not a prototype but a great marketing Champaign. Food for thought. If we the modelers are to get the Head end equipment that we desire someone/manufacturer must start somewhere and no doubt the R-50b is certainly well recognized, and I dare say resin would only serve to frustrate many potential buyers, remember most of the market (modelers) will not assemble a kit from that medium, but if it is the alternative I could certainly create the masters. By the way, how are the heavyweight passenger cars coming? We are all waiting with bated breath. Greg Martin ========================================================================== Bill Schneider wrote: Greg, While I would love to see an R-50B done by somebody for my own use (I'd buy 2), I have to agree with the comments that the REA cars were much more widely travelled and more noticed by modelers. I'm afraid that a head-end car lettered "PENNSYLVANIA" would be PERCIEVED by the general market as being a PRR only car regardless of information on this list to the contrary. Add into the equation the fact that these cars came in a couple different variations and I question if an accurate model could be produced in plastic cost- effecivly and return a reasonable profit. I have talked to another manufacturer who also looked at this car and came to the same conclusion. I'm think this a car that screams to be done in a high quality resin kit though, I hope somebody's talking to Martin or Al on this too. Bill Schneider ========================================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] PRR P2K diesels Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:17:45 -0500 Y'all, Have any of you actually modified detail, painted and weathered any P2K diesels to match PRR prototypes? If so, I would love to see photo/scans of them. If you have a scanner, lay the model(s) on the bed and place a sheet of white photocopy paper over it. Scan the model at 300 dpi, 400 dpi for much better results (600 dpi eats too much memory and takes far too much time to transmit and download). Please e-mail me your model scans. Rumor has it that PRR guys are collectors/hoarders and not really modelers at all !!! I hear all this talk, . . . how about showing us your models?! Jim Six 8~) ps: I say this with genuine interest and am not trying to be a pri_ _. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K GP30 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:11:22 -0500 Guys, The Life-Like Proto 200 N&W GP30 will NOT be wrong. They are offering it as an ex-NKP GP30. They are also offering an NKP painted model as well. As for the phase-2 GP30, Life-Like has engineered their new GP30 in such a way that a simple cab swap will convert the model to a phase-1 GP30. The shortened cab side means more hood wall. This will be part of the phase-1 cab. I am not saying that L-L will offer a phase-1 GP30 at a later date, but I am not saying that they won't either! My comments are not opinion but based upon fact as I have had three of the P2K GP30 models for more than month now. I also have the non-dynamic brake GP7 if you have any questions on that model as well. Jim Six -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K GP30 >On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, doloris mittner wrote: > >> BOB, >> >> You are correct, LL is not bringing a PRR out in the 1st run. This >> maybe why. The first release is a GP-30 phase 2. Phase 2 had a >> different cab set up where as the seating arrangment has two seats on >> the firemens side, one behind the other and one on the right for the >> engineer. On PRR GP-30s the seating arranment was 3 seat straight >> across. This is just a guess but maybe LifeLike is going to change cab >> styles for their second run. Their first release includes N&W, which the >> model will be wrong becuase they had high hoods. So maybe LL won't go to >> that extreme in changing cab styles. Someone else may have more info. > >Why will it be wrong? Did you forget some N&W GP30s came from NKP? > >Also, thus far I've seen no list that includes a separate phase for >different cab seating arrangements; Has anyone even told Life-Like about >the PRR seating style, cause if not, yeah, I'd bet they leave it alone! > >-D > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Help-Parts for BP-20 Shark Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:58:52 -0500 The Athearn Part Numbers are: PA-1 Front Truck 140-33226 $6.50 each PA-1/PB-1 Rear Truck 140-33267 $6.50 each Drive Assembly- 140-34027 $1.50 each (Need 2) We do have the items in stock at this time. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Hoxie To: PRR Talk List Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 2:01 AM Subject: [PRR] Help-Parts for BP-20 Shark >A little Athearn help please. Needed for Miracle Castings BP-20's: Athearn >PA trucks come without worm gear assembly and top cover/housing, which, of >course, are required. Also need same parts for Athearn GP9 drive. Can >anyone provide the correct part numbers for these parts and a source? >Thanks! > >Steve Hoxie >Pensacola FL > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K GP30 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:36:33 -0000 >Garrett and all, > >WRONG ! > >separate nose section, with or WITHOUT nose headlight.... >This means that there are 24 versions of the P2K GP30 that you can model >including that of the PRR. The reason that no PRR version is in the 1st >release is apparently that the PRR P2K models have not been a good seller. >I suspect that y'all buy the undecs and paint your own. Jim- Thanks, goes against what I was told, I am glad to see the differences! Had heard that PRR single stripe E units were not good sellers, but the rest???? Hmmm. Granted, I see them everywhere. Easy enough to paint though. Jim, in all your efforts, what is the best way to get the lettering off of P2K locos? Bachman lettering strips off with Dio-sol leaving the paint alone, turned a PRR GP 30 into a PC GP 30 that way. Now have to re-letter a P2K GP20. >I have scans of both nose headlight and no-nose headlight versions of the >P2K GP30 available should you like to see them. I also have the P2K >non-dynamic brake GP7 and made scans of it as well. Got your scan of the GP30- GREAT!! Ready for the E6 my friend? Thanks for the help with SCL passenger decals- Garrett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] P2K GP30 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:31:37 -0500 Y'all, There is a lot of misunderstanding of just what Life-Like is offering with their pending Proto 2000 GP30. To help to answer questions and clarify misunderstandings, I have scanned the exploded view diagram that Life-Like includes with the GP30. This scan shows all of the bits and pieces. I also have several scans of the actual model, both undecorated and painted are available from me upon request. Let me know what you want to see -- if anything. Apparently the PRR dudes are the ones with the most misunderstandings. Figures. Jim Six 8~) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:48:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] N&W GP30 Fella's I stand corrected on the N&W Geeps. The NKP Geeps didn't come to mind when I typed that in. Boy, make one little mistake here and you never hear the end of it! Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:35:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update Jim, Why is it that we trash the little producers of products went a bid guy makes a "short run" slash in the market. Life Like is notorious for introducing a product then dumping the inventory through a mail order house(s) and walking away with the bootie. Then a year later when it comes time for a guy who has been saving for a particular project he cannot find a Life Like anywhere. The retailers and the consumers are the fall guys. One of the best models made was the FA/B but they are almost nonexistent at the shops now. Thank god I got mine. Trains Unlimited's GEEP by the way does have a flaw in the height of the grill form the walkway, I took my own advise and measured it. The cad side windows are too small, but the plus is that the engine doors are flush to the body like the actual (hate that "P" word) locomotive, Like needs to improve their tooling in this area. The doors should not appear as appliqué doors on a flat sheet, like Athearn. I have a 3 inch rule for my modeling and this is right at it. You could improve the model by replacing them with the see through wire grills Details Associates makes. We are modelers right and the Trains Unlimited is a model that has been and will remain attainable after the Life Like/Atlas splash has played out. All these models have compromises it comes down to what is available not what is right or wrong. Just like Atlas' GP-7 it's a good model when it is around, but not much good to anybody when it is not. Let's not forget about the little guys either. I still own two Athearn GP-7's with Helix drives and I would venture to say they have the slowest speed I have ever seen on a locomotive. I would not give them up on a bet. And then we could fall back on Al Stump for a standard Athearn unit. Let's get realistic, it is not what the manufacturers do with these things it is what we do with them that counts. Seeking realism in our modeling should be our number 1 priority. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:17:55 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] updates to "The Limited" Hello all, I am please to announce that, thanks to the generosity of the good folks on the Passenger Car List, engineering cross sections of Pullman and Harriman cars have just been posted to "The Limited". If you go to "The Great Trains" chapter, "Some Classic Cars", you will find a link to "Engineering". Here you will find an article comparing the various carbodies, plus three click-to illustrations with the various car types blown up REAL BIG for easy reading. It would be nice to be able to add the standard PRR Altoona carbody to this Topic. Would anyone have an engineering diagram they could send me a hi-res copy of for "The Limited"? I would hate to see PRR go unrepresented in this Topic.... BTW: since I have all of you cornered, right now there is a Poll about marketing practices running. I hope everyone will take a moment to stop in and give your input and comments. Every bit helps give us a clearer picture of what the market (thats YOU) wants and needs. Thanks for your interest and support. Sincerely, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:53:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Trenton / Canals Yo, prrsignals and rfm, I'm with you. Especially in light of the recent discovery of the wrecked boat under the bridge on the Camden-Trenton line...this is a subject which demands further investigation. Wanna go before spring, when weeds, serpents, ticks 'n' critters return? Is this the canal which runs beneath the former Reading bridge between Yardley and West Trenton? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:37:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K GP30 In a message dated 2/21/99 7:20:48 AM Mountain Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Their first release includes N&W, which the model will be wrong becuase they had high hoods. >> No it won't be wrong. It will be one of the ex-NKP units with a standard low nose. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:41:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K GP30 In a message dated 2/21/99 7:21:04 AM Mountain Standard Time, glrea@earthlink.net writes: << This model has upper and lower (cab and nose) headlamps, PRR had upper only, thus no PRR paint. >> They come with either nose lights, or no nose lights depending on protoype. Also, they are available with DB's, or non-DB, and with one of 3 different sizes of fuel tanks. Units include whichever combination of these details to match the prototype. Check out my review of te new P2K GP30 in the March issue of Model Railroad News. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:02:01 EST Subject: [PRR] Major Diesel Loco Update In a message dated 2/21/99 12:42:55 PM Central Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << I still own two Athearn GP-7's with Helix drives and I would venture to say they have the slowest speed I have ever seen on a locomotive. >> I had an Athearn F7 (which I gave to my brother who is into scenery and just wants anything to run) and still have a GP(is it 7 or 9?) which run as quiet and as slow as a can motored unit. Unfortunately, the GP hood width bothers me now. But I picked up a Front Range FP7 with a Mashima can motor for $40 and now I am told it is a terrible place to start from a scale standpoint. I did pick up an Atlas GP7 lately so I guess I'll use that on my Valpo dummy (and on the weekends MU it with my Atlas RS3, still my best running loco over hill and dale and through every turnout brand. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:30:35 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Greek tug Epta hello folks... Some have mis-read some of the information i posted during the "Lake Boat" talk...so here is some clarification on the Greek tug Epta. This tug was one of five former U.S. Army tugs bought by the PRR in the very early 1950's. These tugs were all built in 1944 or 1945. These were former US Army "LT 500 and LT 600 series tugs. The former PRR name for this tug was "Exmore". Most PRR tugs in Chesapeake Bay service were named for towns the PRR served on the Delmarva penisula. This tug served until the 1970's.Most likely until Conrail took over and the tug work was contracted out. There is photo evidence that these tugs were at least in PC service as late as 1969,so its a good bet they were still around at the time of the formation of Conrail. It is most likely the "Exmore" was sold off and sent to Greece during the late 1970's. The Official USCG number for this tug was 251043. This is from the 1956 USCG register of 1956. USCG numbers don't usually change through-out a vessels life time no matter who owns a given vessel. Some numbers are even carried after a vessel is scrapped for legal reasons. The ABS (American Bureau of Ships) register of 1997 shows this tug renamed "EPTA" and in service in Greece. So its also a good chance that this bit of PRR history is still going after all these years. Anyone want to talk the PRR T & HS into saving this bit of PRR history...? Have fun... Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:13:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines In a message dated 2/21/99 7:11:18 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << 8. On "Lines in Ohio", the newly standard-gauged Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern from Court Street Station (Cincinnati) north to Lebanon, OH is passenger country, but the Lytle-Dayton segment (Dayton, Lebanon, & Cincinnati) is not. This changed before 1920, with extensive commuter service from Lytle >> Headline from the Dec 19, 1913 New York Times "PRR buys the CL&N" not sure if this includes the Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati between Dodds and Dayton Union Terminal tracks just north of PRR's Washington St. freight depot on the Great Miami Levee. Speaking of the Lytle, there's a picture in John W. Hauck's Narrow Gauge in Ohio, the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Ry. showing grain elevator at Lytle with Pennsy single sheathed box spotted at it. Still looking for photographic evidence of elevator near the CL&N engine facility at Centerville, Ohio. << And the Springfield Branch lists 9 intermediate stops between Xenia and the end-of-track at Springfield (wow, if you're from that neck of the woods). >> Lemme see, Leffels, Beatty, Hustead, Yellow Springs, Goes Station, Oldtown are the one's I'm sure of. Oh, yeah, Jacoby's or Jacoby Switch. I'll guess that one of the other two is Collier and as for the ninth, I haven't a clue and that's in 21 miles of the Springfield branch. I currently building a layout showing the Springfield branch between Yellow Springs and Oldtown. In one 2 1/2-mile stretch there's 11 bridges. I'm modeling 10 and trying out how to include the covered bridge that is behind the viewer.; <<"Pendleton Shops", ancestral yard/engine terminal of the PRR/Little Miami Railroad line from Xenia to Cincinnati>> Which, just as you predicted, had a turntable too short to turn a T1 and its tender as a single unit, hence no T1 snaps shot beside CUT (Art Deco fans are forever poorer) << 12. "Lines in Michigan" shows 5 branches off the Grand Rapids & Indiana between Grand Rapids and Mackinaw City.>> Don't forget the car ferry service across Lake Michigan between Muskegon and Milwaukee. This should m get the catenary crowd grumbling. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:09:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Bachmann K4 To keep my subject line separate from those on the GP7, my mention of the Atlas RS3 going through every turnout brand smoothly reminded me that today I broke in my new Bachmann K4 smoothly leaving our passenger terminal through two No. 8 Shinohara double slips without a hitch, no small feat for a steamer on a turnout unmodified for DCC. Unfortunately, I confirm others' comments that although it is a much better runner, it is only marginally better than its predecessor in pulling out of the box. Have you other owners improved it with lighter spring pressure on the lead and trailing truck or increased weight? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Help-Parts for BP-20 Shark Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:49:24 -0600 Dennis and Ron-- Thanks for the help in identifying the right drive line parts. You provided exactly what I need. Dennis, I will be calling the store tomorrow. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] O scale want list Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:54:26 -0800 I know there are O scalers out there. Mostly I just here the HO guys talking about the HO market. How about you O scalers what is on the top of you want list? I am looking forward to George Kohs models. He is working on the GG I. I am into steam but I might spring for one if I can sell off some of my three rail stuff. I am looking forward to the K4s to be comming in a little while. He has other non- pennsy stuff to follow then some pennsy passenger cars. He told me at O scale west that his next piece to be, done after which he has already committed to, will be either a pennsy or another NYC steam engine. If it is Pennsy it will be either a T1 or the I1s. I am saving my money now! --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member interested in anything on the Renovo Yards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MAGGIE1361@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:50:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Greek tug Epta I SEE THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST IN THE OLD TUGS OWNED BY THE PRR. WOULD ANYONE BE INTERSTED IN OLD TONNAGE CERTIFICATES FOR THESE TUGS. CAN GIVE YOU A LIST OF WHAT I HAVE IF YOUR INTERESTED. SOME MAYBE B & O. WILL HAVE TO CHECK. PLEASE LET ME KNOW. MAGGIE1361@AOL.COM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:39:11 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: NYP&N / PRR Engines was Re: [PRR] PRR Juniata Shops Greetings to Harry and the group, The following information is from _Keystone Steam and Electric_ by William D. Edison and printed in 1974 by Wayner Publications, NYC. At 10:02 PM 2/13/99 EST, you wrote: >I know that the PRR produced some engines for other associated lines. I'm >looking to find out information about these engines which are believed to have >been built at Juniata. > >These are the Juniata Builder numbers: Bld # blt class NYP&N # PRR # Scrap Date 2019 4/10 B8 11 6511 1/38 2020 4/10 B8 35 6535 1/29 2411 4/12 B8 37 6537 11/48 >Also, does anyone have the PRR engine numbers on the following engine builder >numbers. >Baldwin #26749 H-6sb 2-8-0 No Information Found The following were built as H6b during 5/10 and converted to H6sb. They were renumbered 19/18 Conv Scrap NYP&N # PRR # >Juniata #2032 H-6sb 2-8-0 12/12 3/34 5 6505 >Juniata #2033 H-6sb 2-8-0 6/12 10/38 7 6507 >Juniata #2034 H-6sb 2-8-0 10/12 11/36 33 6533 >Juniata #2035 H-6sb 2-8-0 4/14 11/33 34 6534 Thefollowing were built as H6b druing 7/13 and converted to H6sb during the same time. They too were renumbered in 1918 Scrap NYP&N # PRR # >Juniata #2660 H-6sb 2-8-0 8/40 39 6539 >Juniata #2661 H-6sb 2-8-0 4/47 40 6540 Blt Conv Scrap NYP&N # PRR # >Juniata #2225 E-5s 4-4-2 4/11 5/16 12/39 6 6506 >Juniata #2226 E-5s 4-4-2 4/11 3/16 4/48 36 6536 >Juniata #2669 E-5s 4-4-2 8/13 8/13 9/49 38 6538 Couldn't find anything on the folowing. > >Also can any one give me any information about the following PRR engines. >Baldwin # 14683 PRR #6514 which was sold to the NYP&N as #1039 >PRR #2911 2-8-0 >PRR #6516 2-8-0 > >I'm trying to find out a few details about these locomotives for my Delmarva >Web Site. > >Also, is there a place where I could get Juniata or Baldwin Builders >Photographs? >And is there a listing of engines which were used by the Delaware, Norfolk, >and Delmarva Divisions? > >Thanks >Harry Aycock That's all I was able to come up with. Hope it helps. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:38:25 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Re: F-38 flat [PRR] >Hello PRR Fans; > >We at Rail Classics have announced a new project that we believe will be of >great interest to PRR modelers. >The F-38 Heavy Duty Flat Car, information on this car can be seen at our web >site www.railclassics.com Eddy, and y'all Does anyone know what the build date was on these cars? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] ***A great layout !!!! Thx, Ken****** Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:45:33 -0500 ***Model Railroader / April '99 = new issue features one of our own !!!! A fantastic PRR layout !! Nicely done article, photos... Thx, Ken, bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Database Problems at KC Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 14:30:04 -0500 From: Jerry Just a "heads up" that the online databases at "Keystone Crossings", such as the list archives and PRR rosters, are not working properly. The data is there, and intact, but the results forms are misbehaving. This is a result of my beta testing a new version of the web server software that I use. The new version adds a beautiful eCommerce module and relies heavily on forms. The beta is progressing very nicely, but it has caused a few wrinkles -- such as the one described above -- along the way. Should be working again in a few days. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:38:16 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: F-38 flat [PRR] Hi Bruce, All, The "Middle Division's" lettering arrangement book shows a release date of 3/1/54 for the F38 diagram so it would go back at least that far. Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:49:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines In a message dated 2/22/99 4:50:36 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, jhunter@iupui.edu writes: << I think Pennsy actually had an old line up in Noblesville >> I believe you're almost right. It was the Central Indiana RR according to the 1923 system map Dan Cupper used for "The Pennsylvania Railroad, its place in history" It ran from Waveland Jct. on the Panhandle's Terre Haute-Frankfort line through Lebanon and Noblesville and on east to Muncie. I believe the Centennial History says at some time a half-interest ended up in the hands of the NYC after which it was operated independently. One of the three surviving NX23 cabin cars, in Lapel, Ind., supposedly is lettered for the Central Indiana RR. Tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] Project ECW B60 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:27:16 -0000 To all- First, thanks for the interest and input, the project is comming along nicely. Going to be the first airbrush rolling stock project for a friend of mine and I with his new "gun", should be interesting. Simple, very few details to spray around. The last thing I need to do is position the little generator. Due to the exacting quality that the drawings in ECW and E&B kit instructions are executed in, I am a little vague on the location of the little generator that goes between the truck and the bolster, especially the direction that it needs to be mounted in. The bracket makes no sense either. The few photos that show these cars that I have seen show little of the underbody. Garrett Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose X29 "MS" Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 17:25:35 -0500 From: Jerry My shop received the Red Caboose X29's in PRR's "Merchandise Service" livery today. Boy do they look great! I On this X-29 only, due to special masking requirements, the list price rose to $15.95 (other X-29's are $14.95). N scale cars remained at $13.95 list. If anyone is interested, you know where to find me!!! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HTA1970@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:50:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Freight Conductors Reports Can anyone tell me about PRR freight conductors reports. I have one from the Delaware Division 1906. I'm interested in the background information on these and where they were kept etc. Also some of the entry information puzzles me. What are the car type abbreviations? What does the wheels question refer to? What does the entry "x" or "-" mean? Thanks, Harry Aycock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose X29 "MS" Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:02:27 -0500 We second Jerry's opinion. They're nice! We also have the Merchandise Service cars and all other versions of the Red Caboose PRR X-29 cars in stock. A complete listing can be found under Red Caboose on our web site. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 7:31 PM Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose X29 "MS" >My shop received the Red Caboose X29's in PRR's "Merchandise Service" >livery today. Boy do they look great! I > >On this X-29 only, due to special masking requirements, the list price >rose to $15.95 (other X-29's are $14.95). N scale cars remained at $13.95 >list. > >If anyone is interested, you know where to find me!!! > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com >"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com >----------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: Athearn Steam Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:21:44 -0500 Saw this on the Erie Lackawanna mailing list... If I recall correctly from Pennsy Power the PRR had 8 USRA light pacifics (class L2s). They were mainly lines west locos.... Rob http://prr.railfan.net ----Forwarded message: Yessirs, Athearn has announced a USRA light 2-8-2 for about $140 list. These are correct for the L&HR 70-class, which were often seen doubleheading with Lackawanna 2100s south from Andover Junction to Port Morris. Read on: >We received a fax from Athearn this morning announcing a USRA Light >2-8-2. This is being produced in a joint relationship with Samhongsa. >Price is $139.98 and shipping is scheduled for Late Spring 1999. Road >names include: >Undec (with road pilot), Undec (with footboard Pilot), B&O #4531, >PRR #9627, MP #1318, NYC #5155, NKP #586, Frisco #4030, UP #2295. > >To quote the fax, "As part of Athearn's HO scale Genesis Line, the USRA >2-8-2 Light locomotive will set a new level of quality and value for the >steam era modeler. Features include: exquisite body detail, four (4) >body versions, nickel silver plated wheels, blackened handrails, directional >lighting, DCC ready, prototypical paint schemes, laser crisp lettering, >and an ultra quiet drive mechanism." > >Dennis >mailto:dennis@onerrave.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Visit the erielack photopage at http://el-list.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:20:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Conductors Reports It sounds like a conductor's "Wheel Report", a listing of a particular trains "consist", which usually accompanied the waybills for each car in the train. The X or - might be the abbreviated indices for a "load" or "empty". The car type abbreviations ?...could this be the owner-road alpha characters preceding the car number ?? In the 60's, there was an indication for a car type that was an excess dimension car and needed special clearances, but doubt this applied in 1906. Dave Seidel Altoona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:19:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] D&R Canal.... From: Patrick M Egan How do detection circuits work on canals? Or are detector bars used? You need to be able to tell when the canal boat has passed the signal so you can return the signal to its normal position. I presume the signals are approach lit, too. Pat Egan (no web access) On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:58:50 -0500 "Richard F. Makse" writes: >Bill wrote: > >>>We * have * to get together !!! As I can show you the Canal signals >that >we >>>found near old MG Tower / Shack. And those Right near Lalor Street. > >>>Plus I have the 1920-ish plans for all of those Trenton Towers that >>perished > > >The only hint that there were position light signals controlling boat >movements on the canal was in some operating rules for the canal that >I saw >posted in one of the lock houses years ago. While it appears that MG >controlled these signals, they were actually controlled by A Cabin in >Coalport which explains why A Cabin never had a designation as a block >station. > >UN apparently also controlled canal signals; perhaps your blueprints >show >them although I am not certain when they were removed. Certainly needs >more >research. > >Dick Makse > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] D&R Canal.... Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:29:40 -0500 Patrick Egan (obviously a serious student of signals and probably recreational boating) wrote: >How do detection circuits work on canals? Or are detector bars used? >You need to be able to tell when the canal boat has passed the signal so >you can return the signal to its normal position. I presume the signals >are approach lit, too. >Pat Egan >(no web access) Snubbing collars. These were spring mounted frames that floated on the top of the water (original specification, strangely enough, was for Sitka spruce snubbing collars, later modified to permit the use of a particular strain of Georgia yellow pine--cheaper and much easier to obtain). When the frames were shoved against the wall of the canal (there was one on each side for redundancy), the signal was tripped using a simple electrical contact. Near the end, when the position light signals were removed and they installed lock-limit signals, the canalers had to get off at each lock station and phone A Cabin to secure a Clearance Card Form W. No evidence that the signals were approach lit. There was an old canaler's belief that if signals at Zarephath were set "stret", i.e. straight, you would have 37 days of good luck. I think, however, that the "arm man" (that's what the canalers called the operators who controlled the S&F machines) visually detected the approaching boat, probably tipped off by the braying of the mules. Before Jerry intervenes, we probably should move on to another thread since there is only limited interest in the arcane field of canal signaling. It's really a shame because we found a book of authentic "arm man" limericks from the cabin at Lalor Street... Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] The D&R Canal works.... Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:11:26 -0500 ***Hi, Pat - Thanks, Pat - There are definitely many more areas deserving exploration....or excavation ! You have touched upon one more facet that we may to 'dig deeper' to unearth the details thereof. The frozen ground may delay this somewhat..... But, it has been rumored that the original RR term for the common RR signal relay " Stick Circuit " has its 'roots' in the Canal signaling usage, employing actual 'sticks' ...... Film at 11........bill******* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Model manufacturers, Fred Rea's comments.. Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:40:09 -0500 ***Hi, Fred- Thanks for that info !!! We have it completely reversed in G gauge ( ooops, scale, sorry , Al...). We repeatedly pushed Aristo in 1998 to produce the Alco RS3 model in CNJ colors ...that was featured in their 1990 catalog !!! Far from secretive. USA Trains / Charlie Ro regularly surveys customers for input on desired models ( hence the new GP38 announced, with the 'chicken wire grill' EMD F3s to follow !!! WISH we could get a Belpaire x-8-x steamer made soon !!!!) Possibly due to less head to head competition, our manufacturers are very open about new products !!! Each one seems to have carved out their own niche ( Aristo = Alco and GE loco's, USA = EMD loco's, Bachmann = old time and narrow gauge, LGB = whatever.) My loco number complaints stem from SOME models being exactly correct roads I do not model...) , and then others ( PRR ) appearing to be 'guessed' at ..??!!! Thanks, I guess that we G folks should all appreciate that we are in a friendlier atmosphere for customer / manufacturer relations. Thx, bill** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] PRR Radio decals- Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:51:47 -0500 ****Fred' s mention of the PRR Radio decals brought back a nice memory.... Way back in the mid 1970's, fellow PRR co-worker and modeler Larry Mennie had completed detailing, painting and decalling my O scale SD45 in PRR. While comparing the PRR Prototype photo with the finished model, we both realized that only one thing was missing !!! No one made the very visible PRR Radio decals !!! Since they were commonly applied on so many engines and cabins ( and even sides of towers !!) we needed to have these. So, Larry got an original unused decal and forwarded it to Herald King (?) and decals were created in HO and O scale for both of us. Of course we told them to release them for all to enjoy !!! So give thanks to a PRR conductor / fan / modeler for that minor modeling improvement !!! bill******* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:15:22 EST Subject: [PRR] D&R Approach lighting...hmmm, that's Reading Company. Or was this done on the D&R to differentiate from the interlocking and automatic signals? Were any number plates or other distinguishing features mounted on the masts? Were pot signals used? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Terry Link" Subject: [PRR] C-Liners Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:57:41 -0500 Looks like our dream of C-liners may be coming true. An announcement from Canadian Hobbycraft via Central Hobbies in Vancouver states that the C-liners will be available around the end of 1999. Two versions will be offered. A Proto 1000 for the US market and a slightly better (Proto 1500?) version exclusive to the Canadian market. More details are to be announced in April. http://www.central-hobbies.com/products/index.html Terry Link Bramalea, Ontario TRLINK@netcom.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:27:49 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liners On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Terry Link wrote: > Looks like our dream of C-liners may be coming true. > > An announcement from Canadian Hobbycraft via Central Hobbies in Vancouver > states that the C-liners will be available around the end of 1999. Two > versions will be offered. A Proto 1000 for the US market and a slightly > better (Proto 1500?) version exclusive to the Canadian market. More details > are to be announced in April. That's not how I read it. My reading is it will be nicer than Proto 1000... or do you have other info? I hope when they say "each road number only once" they don't mean literally one unit... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HTA1970@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:01:54 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Steam Engine Information Can anyone tell me about the following PB&W steam locomotive which were in service in 1906? #5024 #5096 #5115 #5129 #5175 #5176 #5181 #5187 #5190 Thanks again for your help Harry Aycock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:38:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS? Bill and all, Regaurding this Canal discussion, I have a question on this. If the PRR sign for "advance block limit" is "ABL", What did they use on the canals for some sort of advance warning sign? Just wondering! Now I gotts get back to Painting a K4, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS? Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:25:54 -0500 Gary wrote: It was ALL--approach lock limit. I've been scrounging around trying to find my 1921 Rules Governing the Use of Signaling Devices, Navigational Aids and Appurtenances for the Delaware and Raritan Canal and Raven Rock Feeder Canal. It does have all of the Special Instructions and what we call aspects (and what the boat people called 'Sightas'). We'll post it on the Delaware & Raritan Canal Signal Website complete with whatever diagrams come up from the bottom. Do you do paintings? Many members of the D&R Canal Signal Society would love to see a painting depicting Jack "Big Toot" Congreave handing up tow orders at Weston. It would make a great cover picture for a feature in The Keystone. You could always pick out Jack in the old postcards. He wore his cap on backwards (later to become quite the fashion down around Warren Street). He got the name "Big Toot" because he was always motioning in the air as if he were pulling a whistle cord--even when no boat was in sight. Dick Makse -----Original Message----- From: doloris mittner To: PRRSignals ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS? Bill and all, Regaurding this Canal discussion, I have a question on this. If the PRR sign for "advance block limit" is "ABL", What did they use on the canals for some sort of advance warning sign? Just wondering! Now I gotts get back to Painting a K4, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:56:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liners Folks, Forget the PK12XX whatever C-Liner, Miricle Castings has that covered. But boy oh boy, the light USRA 2-8-2 from Athearn-Genesis caught my eye! You B&O guys better check at: http://www.central-hobbies.com/products/index.html Now that's more like it. Sounds like maybe we can actually get a decent B&O engine without sending our cash to Red China. Nice move, Athearn! Maybe they'll be the folks to bring out some long desired models in their new line. A guy can always hope. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR COLORS? Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:18:29 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of doloris mittner Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 7:38 PM To: PRRSignals; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR COLORS? Bill and all, Regaurding this Canal discussion, I have a question on this. If the PRR sign for "advance block limit" is "ABL", What did they use on the canals for some sort of advance warning sign? Just wondering! Now I gotts get back to Painting a K4, Gary --------------------------------------- Actually ABL means APPROACH BLOCK LIMIT. Used in manual block signal territory in advance of Block-Limit stations. Sort of analogous to the distant signal before a home signal in ABS territory. They probably would have used the same sign in canal operations as the canal section was probably also called a block. Of course that would only be in the MBS canal sections. The ABL sign would not have been used in the ABS sections of the canal. Of course if CTC had been invented it especially when combined with GPS would have made the entire canal operation so much easier. Each GPS satellite would have made one earth orbit for every mile the towing mules went. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liners Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:52:28 -0500 Derrick, I read it the same way you did !....It will be better than the Proto 1000....by having the grab irons and railings applied , directional lighting and proper speed. .Totally financed project from Canada... I didn't see anything about "exclusive" or more than one model...... Bill Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) (At the end of the Northern Central tracks - New Freedom, PA.) ---------- > From: Derrick J Brashear > To: > Cc: PRR LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liners > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 7:27 PM > > On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Terry Link wrote: > > > Looks like our dream of C-liners may be coming true. > > > > An announcement from Canadian Hobbycraft via Central Hobbies in Vancouver > > states that the C-liners will be available around the end of 1999. Two > > versions will be offered. A Proto 1000 for the US market and a slightly > > better (Proto 1500?) version exclusive to the Canadian market. More details > > are to be announced in April. > > That's not how I read it. My reading is it will be nicer than Proto > 1000... or do you have other info? > > I hope when they say "each road number only once" they don't mean > literally one unit... > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:57:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Steam Engine Information In a message dated 2/23/99 10:14:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, HTA1970@aol.com writes: > Can anyone tell me about the following PB&W steam locomotive which were in > service in 1906? If you mean PW&B > > #5024 Altoona Construction # 990 BLT 11/1885 CLASS D11 ORIG #24 RENUM 1903 > #5096 AC 1144 BLT 5/1887 CLASS D11a ORIG # 96, 5096, 1903 5596, 1908 > #5115 AC 1149 BLT 6/1887 CLASS D11a ORIG #115 5115, 1903 > #5129 AC 1487 BLT 4/1890 CLASS D12a ORIG # 129 TO D13c; TO 5129, 1903; TO BC&A OR MD&V MARCH 1913 > #5175 AC 992 BLT 12/1885 CLASS D11a ORIG # B&P 317; TO PW&B 175; TO 5175, 1903; TO 1628, 1906 > #5176 AC NOT ALTOONA CONSTRUCTED > #5181 AC 1152 BLT 6.1887 CLASS D11a ORIG # B&P 323; TO PW&B 181, TO 5181, 1903 > #5187 AC 1153, 2276 BLT 6/1887 CLASS D11a ORIG # B&P 329; TO PW&B 187; TO 5187, 1903 REBUILT (CN 2276) AUG. 1903 CLASS D16B #382; TO 5187 SEP, 1910; TO D16sb AUG., 1917 > #5190 AC 1428 BLT 9/1889 CLASS D12a ORIG # B&P 332; TO PW&B 190, 1891; TO 5190, 1903; TO D13a > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Bob Strong Is Found! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 06:18:06 -0500 From: Jerry I did indeed locate Bob Strong. Formerly of New Jersey and now retired from the Armed Forces, Bob has relocated to my home city of Harrisburg, Pa.! Bob is the guy, whom many have seen, who builds HO scale PRR towers and displays them at the PRRT&HS Convention. To put it simply, they are tops!!! They go for several hundred dollars each, but are worth it to many, myself included -- I just ordered a HARRIS Tower (one which he hasn't previously done). He is currently backlogged by about 30 towers...all of which he is trying to finish for the August convention. He has 7 orders for ALTO and 3 for ROCKVILLE. I told him there was an "Internet Manhunt" to locate him! He said I could share his number... it is 717-561-8364. So, if anyone wants a wonderful HO tower model and has a few hundred bucks to drop, give him a ring. And I'd appreciate if you would tell him I sent you. (I'm trying to convince him to set up a web site on my server.) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:08:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines In a message dated 2/22/99 5:50:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, Hi Ed, Glad the posting was of interest to you. Appreciate Mike passing it on. PIXELS@ameritech.net writes: > Rick: > > This post was forwarded to me by Mike Smeltzer as I am not on the list. > Perhaps I can share some of my understanding regarding your points 2 and 3. > > 2. This is TP&W. I shot their GP's at Keokuk in the 70's. I haven't looked > into the files, but think the segment from LaHarpe was in later years the > ATSF > connection. Don't know about Burlington, IA. Maybe at that time TP&W had > trackage rights on the CB&Q. This is new to me. > IIRC, PRR (really the Panhandle) owned the track west to Effner, about on the Illinois state line (?), and the TP&W picked up from there. But in 1905, I don't know how far west the TP&W went, or what other lines might be included. > 3. I am much more confident in this response. The track segment you > described > was PRR into the PC, and was always freight only. Panhandle passenger trains > used the Bernice Cutoff, located near south suburban Lansing, and connected > with the Fort Wayne near Colehour Yard. PRR had a yard at Damen Ave. on the > north segment of the loop to the north entrance to Union Station. Using the > Chicago street numbering system, Damen Ave is 2000W, and Western Ave. is > 2400W. So the yard was a half mile east of the point where the line turned > east. Even is the early 70's, an engine was assigned there to work the local > industries located on the south side of the right of way. That is due to the > C&NW and Milwaukee to the north. Prior to PC, the normally assigned power > was > FM H-10-44's or H-12-44's. After the merger, I only witnessed EMD SW's. This > is probably due to retirements, more than a business decision. > PC years, I railfanned Chicago, and I'm pretty sure your #3 description is correct for the 70s and probably back into the 1940s or earlier. But do we really know that all Panhandle trains used the Berneice cutoff, the Fort Wayne, and the south end of Chicago Union Station in 1905? In previous discussion, we've discussed the possibility that the Panhandle trains started using Fort Wayne tracks when the two companies both became PRR (around 1920 for operating purposes). Of course, doing this earlier would have made good sense, but this is railroading, right? Anyway, I was highly agitated/disturbed to see the Panhandle's Chicago westside "freight loop" show up on this 1905 map of passenger services, particularly when I also see this map pointedly omitting some pieces of track I know were NOT carrying passenger trains in 1905. See why I thought parts of this atlas were so curious? It appears to undermine that which we "know". I'm absolutely sure that I'm unsure of the facts. How far back can we prove "freight only" for PRR trackage to CUS' north end? Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:08:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines Jim and Roger, I agree that the bridge near Noblesville is likely the Central Indiana, an east-west shortline that crossed the Nickel Plate (former Lake Erie & Western) at a diamond in Noblesville. It's likely I've shot the bridge in question -- one of them around there used to say "Central Indiana" on it. I've read that the Pennsy entered Indianapolis from Logansport via the north/south Nickel Plate line, but have no idea when this arrangement started. Presumably the traffic rights were given up when the PRR built the Indianapolis & Frankfort line (Steve Long says this was 1916; the I&F's concrete structures are right for that period). Naturally, the trackage rights themselves would leave no Pennsy structures; it's even possible that Pennsy passenger trains didn't make intermediate stops on this line. Note that the north-south I&F was supposedly built for heavy coal traffic off the PRR Vincennes Branch, which served the coalfields of southwestern Indiana. Rather than going for downtown Indianapolis, it passed west of town and joined the Indy-St.Louis main at Ben Davis. Conveniently, this is a little farther out than a cutoff that joined the Vincennes Branch with the same St. Louis main west of (outside) the IU "Belt Railway". Ben Davis was also convenient to route any northbound coal traffic coming off the Louisville line (think L&N Eastern Kentucky coal interchanged at Louisville/Jeffersonville). L&N coal could come up to IU interlocking and then west past Union Station, but probably swung west off on the Belt Line at Dale, bypassing Union Station while reaching the St. Louis line. In a message dated 2/22/99 10:39:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, rrassche@ix.netcom.com writes: > This is likely from the Central Indiana, a shortline controlled by PRR that > ran E-W through Noblesville. > > Roger > > > >Rick, > > > >I thonk Pennsy actually had an old line up in Noblesville. Now on private > >property is an old steel truss bridge no longer conected to any track that > >the locals all identify as old PRR . > > > > Jim > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:15:38 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#70701783: PRR RECORD I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Way back we had a discussion about PRR/railroad music. This is a new one to me. Somebody ought to snag this! Title of item: PRR RECORD ..... "SONG OF THE FREIGHT CAR" Seller: gurvey@aol.com Starts: 02/23/99 19:43:44 PST Ends: 03/02/99 19:43:44 PST Price: Currently $8.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=70701783 Item Description: SONG OF THE FREIGHT CAR ................ "DON'T STAND ME STILL" ................. THE KEYSTONE FOUR Four PRR train service employees .............. C.J. Haldeman .. I.E. Wagner .. T.L.Harper .. & .. A.E. White ..... have teamed up to make this 78 rpm record .......... Sung to the music of "Don't fence me in" A RARE FIND INDEED .... Purchased from a private collection ... Since I do not have a 78 rpm turntable I have not been able to hear what is on this gem. ......Ten inch diameter ...... Recorded on one side only ... Looks to be in fine condition. ... May be returned for full refund less shipping if it does not play. ... Successful bidder to add $3 for shipping in US . PA residents please add 6% sales tax.. Money Order or Personal check OK . Bid today to add this one of a kind gem to your collection. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:29:46 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) ---Alan Buchan wrote: > Actually ABL means APPROACH BLOCK LIMIT. Used in manual block signal > territory in advance of Block-Limit stations. Sort of analogous to the > distant signal before a home signal in ABS territory. I question the "Used in manual block signal territory...". As I understand it, manual block signals were operated by operators who sat in Block Stations, using telegraph or telephone to determine from the operators west and east of themselves whether or not each block was clear and setting signals to reflect the facts. Block Limit Stations were not manned. In a way, they were the purest form of station, in that such a station was just "a named place". A Block Limit Signal was a post, equiped (at one time) with a multi-lensed lamp which showed side-by-side amber and red lights in each direction, or (more recently) a half red, half yellow reflectorized panel, and a name plate. Their sole function was to mark a place and give a name to that place. Older rule books required trains to stop at block limit stations and telephone an operator for permission to pass. More recently, radio equiped trains could call in without the need to stop. The details of who to call would be covered in the ETT. The ABL signal was a distant signal for a Block Limit Signal, not for a Manual Block Signal. I don't have an exhaustive list of where Block Limit Signals were used. I have seen them at Hawthorne, Pa on the Low Grade Branch; near Black Lick, Pa on the Indiana Branch; and I believe ages ago I saw one at Johnsonburg, Pa. So far as I know, they're all gone now. In many cases the tracks they stood beside are gone too, or have been sold to interests outside the PRR/PC/CR succession. Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? 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From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:21:12 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: L&N Coal on the PRR was: Ticket Agent's Atlas - In a message dated 2/24/99 5:46:50 AM Mountain Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << Ben Davis was also convenient to route any northbound coal traffic coming off the Louisville line (think L&N Eastern Kentucky coal interchanged at Louisville/Jeffersonville). L&N coal could come up to IU interlocking and then west past Union Station, but probably swung west off on the Belt Line at Dale, bypassing Union Station while reaching the St. Louis line. >> Rick, This is interesting. Did the L&N in fact interchange EK coal off to the PRR through Louisville and Jeffersonville. I have never seen any indication of this, or reference to it. In addition, I never saw L&N coal in the former PRR Jeffersonville yard. I always assumed that coal off the L&N to the PRR was interchanged through Cincinnati. In fact, I know a lot of coal did go this way. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:11:11 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liners >oh boy, the light USRA 2-8-2 from Athearn-Genesis caught my eye! >You B&O guys better check at: >http://www.central-hobbies.com/products/index.html We will have to check carefully, but this locomotive may also be able to pinch hit for the light USRA mikes on the PRR, class L2. Any idea about the tender was for this class? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:59:30 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines > From: RickTipton@aol.com > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:08:17 EST > To: MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, > Roger Raasche > > Subject: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines > Jim and Roger, > I agree that the bridge near Noblesville is likely the Central Indiana, an > east-west shortline that crossed the Nickel Plate (former Lake Erie & Western) > at a diamond in Noblesville. It's likely I've shot the bridge in question -- > one of them around there used to say "Central Indiana" on it. The diamond is now gone and the bridge to the east of Noblesville that used to say Central Indiana is gone. Your pictures and memories are it. :-( The other bridge that I am aware of to the west of Noblesville is also the CI and I would have no idea why anyone would refer to it as PRR. That's a surprise because the Pennsy didn't go there. They and the NYC bought the CI as a bypass around Indy, but never ungraded it to the level necessary to do that. > In a message dated 2/22/99 10:39:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rrassche@ix.netcom.com writes: > > > This is likely from the Central Indiana, a shortline controlled by PRR that > > ran E-W through Noblesville. > > > > Roger > > > > >Rick, > > > > > >I thonk Pennsy actually had an old line up in Noblesville. Now on private > > >property is an old steel truss bridge no longer conected to any track that > > >the locals all identify as old PRR . > > > > > > Jim Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines In a message dated 2/24/99 7:45:44 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << 2. This is TP&W. I shot their GP's at Keokuk in the 70's. I haven't looked > into the files, but think the segment from LaHarpe was in later years the > ATSF > connection. Don't know about Burlington, IA. Maybe at that time TP&W had > trackage rights on the CB&Q. This is new to me. > IIRC, PRR (really the Panhandle) owned the track west to Effner, about on the Illinois state line (?), and the TP&W picked up from there. But in 1905, I don't know how far west the TP&W went, or what other lines might be included. >> Rick, I thought I answered this one but I can't find any record of it being sent. According to the Centennial History of the PRR, In 1890 the PRR bought the line from the Panhandle at Effner, Ind. on the Illinois state line west to Keokuk, Iowa, via Peoria with the branch to Burlington with hopes through westbound traffic could avoid Chicago's congestion. Burgess and Kennedy write that traffic on the line never met expectations and posed maintenance problems from poor construction. They write that a half interest was sold to the AT&SF in 1927 and the freestanding TP&W was spun off. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:42:11 -0500 (EST) RickTipton@aol.com scrivit: > one of them around there used to say "Central Indiana" on it. I've read that > the Pennsy entered Indianapolis from Logansport via the north/south Nickel > Plate line, but have no idea when this arrangement started. Presumably the > traffic rights were given up when the PRR built the Indianapolis & Frankfort > line (Steve Long says this was 1916; the I&F's concrete structures are right > for that period). Naturally, the trackage rights themselves would leave no > Pennsy structures; it's even possible that Pennsy passenger trains didn't make > intermediate stops on this line. Guys: Burgess & Kennedt write on p. 542: (text shortened) I&F ... incorporated Dec. 24, 1913 to build ... to Frankfort, Indiana on the Terre Haute and Logansport line, to take the place of trackage rights between Indianapolis and Kokomo over the Lake Erie and Western, and thus provide an all-Pennsylvania route for ... Southern Indiana coal to Chicago. Sounds like the traffic patterns were quite different at that time! Terre Haute to Logansport was ... important? or just the line segment the PRR happened to own? Further: Construction was authorized ... Feb. 28, 1916. Line opened ... early 1918, full operation ... June 16. > Note that the north-south I&F was supposedly built for heavy coal traffic off > the PRR Vincennes Branch, which served the coalfields of southwestern Indiana. > Rather than going for downtown Indianapolis, it passed west of town and joined > the Indy-St.Louis main at Ben Davis. Conveniently, this is a little farther > out than a cutoff that joined the Vincennes Branch with the same St. Louis > main west of (outside) the IU "Belt Railway". -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:31:00 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of robert netzlof Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 7:30 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) ---Alan Buchan wrote: > Actually ABL means APPROACH BLOCK LIMIT. Used in manual block signal > territory in advance of Block-Limit stations. Sort of analogous to the > distant signal before a home signal in ABS territory. I question the "Used in manual block signal territory...". --------------------- Bob, what is the specific question? ABL signals were certainly not used in ABS territory nor TT&TO (dark) territory. The rule for ABL signals is 293A which follows rule 293 - Block-limit. (see pages 76 and 68 PRR 1956 Book of Rules and Page 80 of PC 1968 Rules). The Name Approach block-limit is a clue that it is in advance of a block-limit signal. Its indication: "Proceed prepared to stop at next Block-limit signal. Trains exceeding Medium speed must at once reduce to that speed" is also another clue it is in advance of a Block-limit signal. You might also go to Page 11 of the PRR 1956 Book of Rules and review the Definitions for ABS and MBS. MBS specifically states: "A block signal system wherein the use of each block is governed by block signals controlled manually or by BLOCK-LIMIT SIGNALS or both upon information by telephone or other means of communication." There is no mention of Block-limit signals in the ABS definition. Therefore, one can deduce that Block-Limit and ABL signals were only used in MBS territory. As I understand it, manual block signals were operated by operators who sat in Block Stations, using telegraph or telephone to determine from the operators west and east of themselves whether or not each block was clear and setting signals to reflect the facts. --------------------- This is essentially correct, also based on instructions from the dispatcher. Block Limit Stations were not manned. In a way, they were the purest form of station, in that such a station was just "a named place". A Block Limit Signal was a post, equiped (at one time) with a multi-lensed lamp which showed side-by-side amber and red lights in each direction, or (more recently) a half red, half yellow reflectorized panel, and a name plate. Their sole function was to mark a place and give a name to that place. --------------------------- This is also essentially correct, except that block-limit stations were not just named places. They were used like any other block station to hold trains for spacing, meets and/or passes. The later two requiring sidings. When Block Stations were unmanned they typically reverted to the status of a Block-limit station, and were required to extinguish the wayside block signals and set out proper Block-limit signals (Rule 293). This would have been spelled out in the ETT. Block-limit stations were under the control of a specific block station (manned) as specified in the ETT Special Instructions. Block-limit stations could also be closed, meaning they were not in operation. Again specified in the ETT. Older rule books required trains to stop at block limit stations and telephone an operator for permission to pass. More recently, radio equiped trains could call in without the need to stop. The details of who to call would be covered in the ETT. -------------------------------- This is a generalization and not exactly was true. The rule about stopping did not change because of the introduction of radio. Trains were always required to stop, right into and including PC (radio or no), unless of course the train had a Clearance Card Form K authorizing it to "Proceed at........As though.....block signal were displayed." See page 99 1956 PRR Book of Rules, as well as page 120 PC 1968 Rule Book. The ABL signal was a distant signal for a Block Limit Signal, not for a Manual Block Signal. ------------------------------- I believe that is what I stated see above: "Actually ABL means APPROACH BLOCK LIMIT. Used in manual block signal territory in advance of Block-Limit stations" where of course Block-limit signals would have been displayed. I don't have an exhaustive list of where Block Limit Signals were used. I have seen them at Hawthorne, Pa on the Low Grade Branch; near Black Lick, Pa on the Indiana Branch; and I believe ages ago I saw one at Johnsonburg, Pa. -------------------------------- Go to the station pages of any PRR or PC (at least early) ETT (beginning section) - it will indicate what the status of every controlling location is - Interlocking, Interlocking Station, Block Station or Block-Limit Station. The notes will also identify the automatic interlockings. In ABS territory you will typically find Interlockings, Interlocking Stations, and Block Stations. In MBS territory you will typically find Interlockings, Interlocking Stations, Block Stations and Block-Limit Stations. ABL signals were used in advance of Block-Limit stations. Block-limit signals would have been displayed at every listed Block-limit station. So far as I know, they're all gone now. In many cases the tracks they stood beside are gone too, or have been sold to interests outside the PRR/PC/CR succession. ----------------------------- Sorry, I cannot address this statement. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR COLORS? Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:53:53 -0600 > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Buchan > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:18 PM > To: doloris mittner; PRRSignals; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR COLORS? > > Alan Buchan wrote, in part..... > > >>They probably would have used the same sign in canal operations as the > canal > section was probably also called a block. Of course that would only be in > the MBS canal sections. The ABL sign would not have been used in the ABS > sections of the canal. Of course if CTC had been invented it especially > when > combined with GPS would have made the entire canal operation so much > easier. > Each GPS satellite would have made one earth orbit for every mile the > towing > mules went.<< > > Actually, a CTC system like Al describes exists today. The U.S. Coast > Guard operates Vessel Traffic Service (VTS) at several locations, > including the Houston-Galveston ship channel and one in New Orleans. All > commercial shipping in a VTS is required to be under the control for the > Coast Guard who monitor the traffic via remote video cameras and radar and > provide clearance to vessels via radio. All vessels are tracked via a > manual system of moving markers with ship names along a large horizontal > chart. Vessel movements are updated every two minutes. Very interesting > to watch but a far way from the PRR so I better drop this. > > Bill Laird > "Insist on LIVE STEAM, accept no substitute....." > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:03:27 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] oops! OOOOOOPS! I thought that the meassage including the entire Trains zoo tower article came through PRR-talk - my mistake! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:58:34 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Re: Good Article on Zoo Tower, Phila >Good article on Zoo Tower at Phila, sent to me by Fred Malan. > >BTW, Zoo was built 1937-1938 to consolidate three earlier towers. > > Zoo Tower in Twilight > By David Palmer > This article originally appeared in March > 1999 TRAINS. > Copyright ©1999 Kalmbach Publishing Co. > ------------------------------------------ I don't mean to be cranky, but full text reproduction of this article is CLEARLY ILLEGAL, and by using the PRR-talk list to distribute it, you not only violate the law, but in fact may jeapordize Jerry's ability to provide the list service. For goodness sake THINK, before you steal someone else's creative work...and that's what it is, without any sugar coating, STEALING! I mean REALLY, you even reproduced the copywright statement! I'll get off my soapbox now Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:53:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Pat-M.Castings, Great idea. How about a casting for a B8a 0-6-0 Shop switcher? Maybe to apply to a Mantua 0-6-0 chassis. Key Imports makes them, Costs $500.00. Custom Brass makes them, costs $225.00+ Just a thought! Your cost??? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] C-Liners Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:05:24 -0500 > Now that's more like it. Sounds like maybe we can actually get a decent > B&O > engine without sending our cash to Red China. > Don't be so sure. Who's to say the Samhongsa part won't be made with Red Chinese "slave labor"? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:51:12 -0500 Hi Everybody! Miracle Castings is looking for input for a potential project we're getting involved in. We're currently negotiating with a gentleman who is an expert in producing accurate boiler shapes, quickly, and we're trying to determine what kind of interest is out there for boiler conversions. The kits would be metal-filled resin, and include cabs where appropriate. Domes would be included, but not detail parts such as pumps, etc., unless they were unavailable elsewhere. As a wild guess, we'd probably be looking at pricing in the $75.00 range and up, depending on boiler size, complexity, number of added parts, etc. I have to stress that nothings been decided or agreed upon yet, but we really need to know what classes of steamers you folks would like to see, and what you consider to be an acceptable price for such a product (keeping in mind that the alternative is brass ;-) ) Please let us hear your opinions and suggestions! Regards, Pat Lawless miracle-castings@on.aibn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:14:23 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Dear Pat, >Please let us hear your opinions and suggestions! Regards, If your "miracle" man can make big boilers, how about a PRR J-1 (C&O T-1)? No Belpaire to deal with on that one...although a drive train would need to be identified...such as the old ambroid/bowser?...after all, its the castings that are shot. Others of need/interest Q-2 Duplex (drive train could get interesting...) M-1/M1a/M1b (Bowser Drive) A, B and C class locos as mentioned by others Of course, what we really need are some decent PRR tenders !!!!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:38:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liners May be, but that's better than the whole engine. BP ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:08:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines In a message dated 2/24/99 10:31:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 2/24/99 7:45:44 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, > RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > << 2. This is TP&W. I shot their GP's at Keokuk in the 70's. I haven't > looked > > into the files, but think the segment from LaHarpe was in later years the > > > ATSF > > connection. Don't know about Burlington, IA. Maybe at that time TP&W had > > trackage rights on the CB&Q. This is new to me. > > > IIRC, PRR (really the Panhandle) owned the track west to Effner, about on > the > Illinois state line (?), and the TP&W picked up from there. But in 1905, I > don't know how far west the TP&W went, or what other lines might be > included. > > >> > Rick, > > I thought I answered this one but I can't find any record of it being sent. > > According to the Centennial History of the PRR, In 1890 the PRR bought the > line from the Panhandle at Effner, Ind. on the Illinois state line west to > Keokuk, Iowa, via Peoria with the branch to Burlington with hopes through > westbound traffic could avoid Chicago's congestion. Burgess and Kennedy > write > that traffic on the line never met expectations and posed maintenance > problems > from poor construction. They write that a half interest was sold to the AT& > SF > in 1927 and the freestanding TP&W was spun off. > > Tom V. > Thanks, Tom. That explains why PRR and TP&W are so easy to confuse in the area. IIRC, the Pennsy/PC/CR interest in TP&W was sold to ATSF. And then later the TP&W became independent again. Somewhere along here, the TP&W absorbed the PRR trackage Effner to Logansport. But I'd look to Roger Raasche's posted explanation of this; he's far more up-to-date than I on what's happened to all these ex-PRR lines out of Logansport. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:41:29 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: [PRR] C-Liners --On Wednesday, February 24, 1999, 11:05 AM -0500 "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" wrote: > ... Who's to say the Samhongsa part won't be made with Red Chinese "slave labor"? Samhongsa's work shop is located in the Yongsan area of Seoul, Republic of Korea (that's the part south of the DMZ). My wife and I, while stationed there, once shipped a piece of furniture from Beijing, via Hong Kong, to Korea. The incredible beauracracy we had to deal with in shipping between a Communist and a democratic (at least in theory) country leads me to believe that Samhongsa would be relucant, if not politically disinclined, to deal with the PRC. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:23:44 -0500 Al Buchan and Bob Netzlof were discussing block limits. Rather than snip and snip their discussions, let me just add some comments. First to Bob. Fun aside about canal signaling, MBS on an ABS system can only appears in the same breath with "against the current of traffic". If you had an ABL, you could never, by definition, be in ABS territory. Period. No exceptions, EVER, NEVER (sort of like Rule 292 which says that if you violate this rule, you go to jail, lose your OJ get-out-of-jail card, and get shot!) "Proceed at (block limit name or names) as though (___ block signal) were displayed". While the (signal) usually written in was Clear (Block), I saw on a number of occasions Permissive (Block) K cards issued. They were rarer but were provided for by the rules and did permit the dispatcher to keep trains moving, provided none of the trains involved was carrying revenue passengers. Block Limit says the "limit of the block" but if you go back in PRR history, the original term was "Unattended Block Station." So, the attended block station, i.e.block limit station, allowed the dispatcher to conveniently set meeting points (and rarely, passing points) as well as establish a means for train spacing. In the early 20's, many "block stations" (usually but not always inside ticket offices) had separate telegraphers and ticket sellers. So the Pennsy eliminated the jobs of telegraphers or telegrapher-agent/telegrapher-clerk and turned the sale of tickets, in some cases, over to lower paid clerks. Understand that this was concurrent with the widespread installation of telephones, obviating the need for the skilled telegrapher to block trains when a nearby block operator (only a couple of cranks away on the block phone) could issue the block authority over the phone. The PRR had literally hundreds of block stations at the beginning of the 20's and many, many of them disappeared before or during the Great Depression. Initially, from timetables I have examined, the "attended" block stations became "unattended" on a one-to-one basis. But in time, closer scrutiny of how block authorities were being issued showed that many block stations could be closed without replacing them with block limit signals. Changes in traffic levels--and especially the elimination of passenger trains on light density branches--made these decisions no-brainers from a management perspective. While the blocking of passenger trains that were expected to maintain schedules was a high priority, concern about the blocking of freights--which were "extras"--certainly could be handled with fewer manned locations. While block limit stations have largely disappeared from the Pennsy system, my alma mater, the LIRR, still uses them on its two most easterly branches (the Main Line Ronkonkoma to Greenport and the Montauk Branch Patchogue to Montauk) as well as the lone MU block limit station at West Hempstead (WM). Individuals on this list who correspond with me regularly know that I have made a point of saying that the LIRR is the last stronghold of a nearly-pure PRR rulebook. While the stepchild LIRR has some "new" signal rules that provide for the movement of trains with automatic speed control failures (essentially, flashing aspects), its manual block operations are nearly pure PRR. And woe betide the conductor who goes into "dark territory" without being "sharp". The LIRR (which is not a signatory to NORAC except for the East River tunnels and Penn Station) still regularly runs--in the summer--pure Form 19 meets--and you better know all that good stuff about who takes the siding. Not for amateurs or the timid. You earn your stripes on trains that carry 1000 plus passengers in the summer. (Until about 12-13 years ago, the LIRR used to "close" block limit stations by train order and establish "temporary" manual block stations to keep its Hamptons service on the gold standard. In short, holders of Form D's need not apply. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:14:54 -0600 Pat--Great idea! What I would like to see is a boiler/cab for H8/9/10 2-8-0 Consolidations. The preferred drive train would be the Bachmann Spectrum Consolidation, just take off the generic shell Bachmann makes and put on yours, plus details. (You would not be competeing with Bowser--their boiler/cab really misses the mark.) Also let me second Bruce Smith: Tenders, tenders, tenders! Nice job on the BP-20 Sharks. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:31:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Pat, You just made my day. I haven't had the pleasure of the BP20 yet but it will be soon. Now as to PRR steam: Q2 is #1 how to power it ???? N1 boiler can be powered by Bowser. Streamlined K4 boilers, good place for the older Bachmann mechanisms. I guess we could use a switcher 4 or 6 wheeled. I kow this one is not steam but what about an E44???? I need several. I couldn't help myself. Had to say it. Sorry. Al Stump ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis Schaller" Subject: [PRR] Modeling PRR in N-Scale Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:34:04 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BE601B.DF63DD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone else out there modeling PRR in N-scale, I am thinking of modeling = it from Philly to Pittsburgh with Harrisburg as the highpoint since = that's where I grew up. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BE601B.DF63DD80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone else out there modeling PRR = in N-scale, I=20 am thinking of modeling it from Philly to Pittsburgh with Harrisburg as = the=20 highpoint since that's where I grew up.
 
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BE601B.DF63DD80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:59:38 -0500 (EST) Alan Buchan scrivit: > ---Alan Buchan wrote: > > > Actually ABL means APPROACH BLOCK LIMIT. Used in > manual block signal > > territory in advance of Block-Limit stations. Sort > of analogous to the > > distant signal before a home signal in ABS territory. > > > > I question the "Used in manual block signal > > territory...". > --------------------- > Bob, what is the specific question? ABL signals were certainly not used in > ABS territory nor TT&TO (dark) territory. The rule for ABL signals is 293A Guys, if I may interject, This seems to be a fairly minor issue. I suspect Bob is confused about, or complaining about, the use of the word 'signal' in your (Alan's) statement quoted above: "Used in manual block signal territory...". Bob, read that as "Used in manual block system territory...". or, somewhat colloquially, "Used in manual block territory...". I've seen both "manual block system" and "manual block signal system" used in various PRR publications. Bob, remember further that, despite what one may think of at first as being a signal, the presence of a lamp is NOT required. That "ABL" thing we're discussing is *officially* an ABL _signal_. So is the block limit thing -- it's a block limit _signal_. Certain signs (= standard English definition) are signals as defined in the rules. > > Block Limit Stations were not manned. In a way, they > > [...] > > Their sole function was to mark a place and > > give a name to that place. Not their sole function, as discussed by Alan. > > Older rule books required trains to stop at block > > [...] > [Trains were required to stop] unless [...] the train had a Clearance > Card Form K authorizing it to "Proceed [...] Was gonna comment on this, but Alan has done it. > Go to the station pages of any PRR or PC (at least early) ETT (beginning > section) - it will indicate what the status of every controlling location > is - Interlocking, Interlocking Station, Block Station or Block-Limit > Station. The notes will also identify the automatic interlockings. Al, I think that Bob may be hinting at another question: were there ever ABL signals [signs] used in the rear of MBS fixed signals, the lit kind? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:39:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR R-50-B In a message dated 2/19/99 1:26:13 AM Central Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << although I would buy several >> I know I'm good for 6-8 if the price is anywhere near reasonable. I'm still trying to get the CCS kits built. Nothing could be worse than the roofs they had on those. And I brought 3 of them. Al Stump ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:13:50 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: bejm@gateway.eeg.ccf.org [mailto:bejm@gateway.eeg.ccf.org]On Behalf Of Mark Bej Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 6:00 PM To: Alan Buchan Cc: wb3iqe@rocketmail.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Mark you asked, I think that Bob may be hinting at another question: were there ever ABL signals [signs] used in the rear of MBS fixed signals, the lit kind? I never like to say never, because some wag will come up with an exception. But typically no, ABL signals would not be used with position light fixed manual block signals on a mast. Typically the distant signal would also be a position light fixed signal on a mast. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:43:24 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] PRR in N-Scale Of course... I inherited a small portable n-scale double tracked main line module that I've upgraded to model the PRR. It's only 30" x 60" but I've installed new roadbed, new track and turnouts, and I'm beginning to add scenery to it. I grew up along the Cincinnati to Chicago line of the Panhandle and will model some of the points I remember from Madison County here in Indiana. I will be taking it to NMRA meets starting next month and have been asked to show it at other meets as well. I soon hope to start an n-scale version of that same line in the basement before long. I use to have an HO PRR layout...but n-scale will allow me to lay out a more realistic town to country to town arrangement that will satisfy me better than the old one. While I enjoy some of the HO equipment available, n-scale will allow me to enjoy the PRR even more. Hope this helps. > Lewis Schaller wrote: > > Anyone else out there modeling PRR in N-scale, I am thinking of > modeling it from Philly to Pittsburgh with Harrisburg as the highpoint > since that's where I grew up. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me 'Panhandle'." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too mcrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:04:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Pat, Would your boiler castings have to be strictly Pennsy? If not, some of the USRA designs might be promising. Otherwise, a streamlined K4 would be tempting (or even better, for some of us, would be a streamlined B&O casting, but them I guess we'd need a tender too). Any chance of a Reading engine? That Wooten firebox might appeal to CNJ, LV and DL&W fans too, and others. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:13:56 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Richard F. Makse Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 2:24 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Richard, nice dialog - Thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] Boiler Project Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:18:45 -0000 Gents: One thing to keep in mind with some of the suggestions of making boilers for Bachman frames is that Bachman, like everyone else for some unknown reason, is limiting production on items. Food for thought- Garrett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:41:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits In a message dated 2/24/99 4:16:16 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Of course, what we really need are some decent PRR tenders >> Amen! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:11:12 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Re: boiler conversions Hello Pat at MC, While I like what you've done in HO, is there any hope for us in N-scale for some boiler conversions? I'd like to see a streamlined K4 or a decapod. Cheers, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:01:54 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits From: locoshop@juno.com Okay, I will field this one, then how about a M1/a/b to go on the new Bachmann units? Or is the driver diameter on these going to be to far off to make it feasible? On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:14:54 -0600 steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) writes: >Pat--Great idea! What I would like to see is a boiler/cab for H8/9/10 >2-8-0 >Consolidations. The preferred drive train would be the Bachmann >Spectrum >Consolidation, just take off the generic shell Bachmann makes and put >on >yours, plus details. (You would not be competeing with Bowser--their >boiler/cab really misses the mark.) > >Also let me second Bruce Smith: Tenders, tenders, tenders! > >Nice job on the BP-20 Sharks. > >Steve Hoxie >Pensacola FL > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station >Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:12:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Ticket Agent's Atlas - Pennsylvania Lines In a message dated 99-02-24 07:45:43 EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << and the south end of Chicago Union Station in 1905? >> Another factor to consider here is that the "Union Station" of 1905 was not the same one we know today. Being a Lines East man, I'm not sure if it was even at the same location. But I'm immensely enjoying this whole discussion, and would love to get my hands on a Ticket Agent's Atlas. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:18:03 -0500 Al, responding to Mark, wrote: >Mark you asked, >I think that Bob may be hinting at another question: >were there ever ABL signals [signs] used in the rear of MBS fixed signals, >the lit kind? > >I never like to say never, because some wag will come up with an exception. >But typically no, ABL signals would not be used with position light fixed >manual block signals on a mast. Typically the distant signal would also be a >position light fixed signal on a mast. It is no accident that the ABL wording was APPROACH block limit. The wording and intent is that of Rule 285--APPROACH with the exception that a K card told you that you could pass the block limit and therefore disregard the ABL sign. I don't recall ever seeing on the PRR, the LIRR or the PRSL an ABL that was mounted on a fixed signal. While there were instances where part-time block stations with distant signals coexisted with part-time block limit stations with ABL signs, the PRR intentionally avoided putting two different "rules" on the same mast. I always saw them on separate masts even if they were only a few feet apart. Bob, please note that you would never really find an ABL anywhere near an MBS. You would, however, find an ABL near a "distant" signal to an MBS (this would be their logical location). Typically, you are talking about 1/2 to 1 mile between these signals, depending on the maximum track speeds involved. The ABL, while not "lighted" like a position light signal, was nonetheless a "fixed" signal and the ABL was spaced the appropriate braking distance from the block limit signal. The absence of "track circuits" never caused PRR signal engineers to suspend good judgement. Today, such thinking is difficult to accept since a stick in the ground certainly appears to have less importance than a signal with electric lights and relays. I can only conclude that the train crews of old understood the subtleties of the rights of trains far better than mere mortals can today. Me included. Earlier in this thread, Al stated: << Block Limit Stations were not manned. In a way, they were the purest form of station, in that such a station was just "a named place". A Block Limit Signal was a post, equiped (at one time) with a multi-lensed lamp which showed side-by-side amber and red lights in each direction, or (more recently) a half red, half yellow reflectorized panel, and a name plate. Their sole function was to mark a place and give a name to that place. >> The inventor of "block limits" is probably lost to posterity. Too bad, Some of the cost savings he effected probably moved PC day to 1968. Had he not been there, the "Wreck of the Penn Central" would have taken place earlier. The old special instructions and rule books said that the "sign" itself, i.e. the old block station telegraph call letters or block limit name, was the day signal; the night signal was yellow and red horizontal lights (originally modified oil markers, later electrified and in PC/CR days, degraded to 3M reflecting). It was specified that the yellow light be placed next to the main track. An operator I knew who had been hired on in 1916 told me about block limits when I was about 12 and said that the yellow told you where your main was and the red said stop (since the red was usually adjacent to the main passing siding). Always made sense to me. Generally the block limits were placed just beyond the siding switch (even with the siding fouling point). Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Project Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 09:14:04 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/25/99 8:56 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: ><< One thing to keep in mind with some of the suggestions of making boilers >for > Bachman frames is that Bachman, like everyone else for some unknown reason, > is limiting production on items. >> > >Cutting to the chase, unless you want to throw away the existing boiler on a >complete Bachmann (for example) loco you purchase , don't plan on using their >mechanism as the base for anything. As a reseller, I have to agree. The Bachmann K4's, for instance, are already out of their production run. That's not to say they won't rerun them. It just means that what is out, is out! Most distributors are out of them, meaning what is in hobby shops is it. When they are gone, they are gone! Another avenue might be to make different boilers to fit Bowser mechanisms so that different classes of a loco might be modeled. For instance, Bowser's H is an H9 (supposedly). Perhaps other H's could be made to fit the same mechanism. Then there's Bowser's E6, K4, etc. What all could we make? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:12:15 -0500 (EST) I had written: > > > I think that Bob may be hinting at another question: > > > were there ever ABL signals [signs] used in the rear of MBS fixed signals, > > > the lit kind? (Bob: could you confirm if this is what you were asking?) Al Buchan responded: > > I never like to say never, because some wag will come up with an exception. Indeed! > > But typically no, ABL signals would not be used with position light fixed > > manual block signals on a mast. Typically the distant signal would also be > > a position light fixed signal on a mast. Richard Makse then wrote (and BTW, many thanks for your previous extensive email!): > It is no accident that the ABL wording was APPROACH block limit. The wording > and intent is that of Rule 285--APPROACH with the exception that a K card > told you that you could pass the block limit and therefore disregard the ABL > sign. I don't recall ever seeing on the PRR, the LIRR or the PRSL an ABL > that was mounted on a fixed signal. Dick, this is not what I was suggesting that Bob may have been thinking of. (damn, this is getting convoluted!) Let me rephrase: was there ever an ABL signal [sign] used _alone_, minus a position-light or semaphore signal, in the rear of a position-light or semaphore manual block home signal? In other words, we all accept that a _typical_ progression (for MBS territory) would be PL distant signal --> PL home signal and ABL sign[al] --> BL sign[al] but was there ever a ABL sign[al] --> PL home signal ? (I won't ask the 4th possibility, i.e. PL distant signal in the rear of a BL sign, as track circuiting a BL sign seems eminently stupid!) > While there were instances where > part-time block stations with distant signals coexisted with part-time block > limit stations with ABL signs, the PRR intentionally avoided putting two > different "rules" on the same mast. I always saw them on separate masts even > if they were only a few feet apart. Ah, yet another combination. So ... did the PL signal govern when the block station was manned, and the ABL govern when it was closed (and presumably remote-controlled from some other location?) > Bob, please note that you would never > really find an ABL anywhere near an MBS. Near an MBS home signal? Or is such terminology redundant? (I.e., another way to ask this question is to ask if a distant signal is an MBS signal?) > You would, however, find an ABL > near a "distant" signal to an MBS (this would be their logical location). -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:56:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Project In a message dated 2/24/99 11:48:27 PM Central Standard Time, glrea@earthlink.net writes: << One thing to keep in mind with some of the suggestions of making boilers for Bachman frames is that Bachman, like everyone else for some unknown reason, is limiting production on items. >> Unless it is made in the U.S. the concept of an ongoing production line for consumer products ended about 25 years ago in the U.S. A far East assembler quotes a rock bottom price for a one-shot batch of a product (a container load in some cases). He has his assemblers build Bachmann K4 pacifics between a batch of bug lights and a batch of power cord extensions. Next project: Christmas tree lights or cellphones or scanners for Radio Shack. Cutting to the chase, unless you want to throw away the existing boiler on a complete Bachmann (for example) loco you purchase , don't plan on using their mechanism as the base for anything. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 11:42:44 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/25/99 11:22 AM, Miracle Castings Inc. (miracle-castings@on.aibn.com) wrote: >The subject of accurate tenders has come up repeatedly, Pat: Yes, tenders are a hot area among us PRR modelers. You can check the archives of "PRR-Talk" to locate past discussions and needs assessment. For years, the Bowser K4 was shipped with an incorrect tender. Now it is correct, but many folks may want to replace the older ones. Of course, Bowser does now sell the correct one separately as well. But that's just an example. I think there are many Bowser units that ship with tenders that aren't "just right". There is also a bit of a market for "just tenders". One of the common modeling gimmicks is to put a lone tender's ass sticking out of a roundhouse stall. Makes it look like you have more locos than you really have. At $30 a pop, you can make an 18-stall roundhouse look pretty busy! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Project From: Fred G Rea Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:34:04 EST Bob Zoeller's remarks explain the response I got from a man at Bachman regarding the passenger cars. I was quizzing him re trucks and have they changed. He said each batch of cars is a bit different, hard to tell what trucks I was concerned about. I have since picked up two more coaches and, yes, completely different trucks. The later ones do not look as great as my first set but roll much better. Same problem with Bowser's mechanism for the original Bachman K-4. Later catalog entries warn you it may not fit later batches from Bachman. A big yes to the tenders. Just doing tenders would be well received. The other idea would be to work with Bowser. A Bowser loco with an Alco Products Helix Humper motor is a nice running loco. Teaming with them to produce newer boilers and tenders but use their mechanism and add on details might be the best blend of the advantages of metal and resin. Be sure, however, any boilers are VERY HEAVY! The real feature of my Bowser locos. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:23:23 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] Pass. Tuscan '39-'45 1) The PRR Historical Society book on painting diagrams says PRR Tuscan was redder in the 1920's and browner in the 1940's. Pullman cars dedicated in PRR service were said to be a lighter shade of Tuscan. A photo of VOYAGER in the *PRR Color Guide* (Sweetland & Yanosey) purports to show this lighter shade, and although the photo is an iffy repro of an iffy slide, it does seem a bit lighter than some of the PRR cars pictured. 2) Arthur Dubin's *Pullman Paint & Lettering Notebook* makes no mention of any difference between PRR and Pullman-applied Tuscan. The color sample in the back of the book, Pullman number 70-18, matches a sample of PRR Tuscan I took off a real B-60 (post war paint, I guess). The Pullman color in Dubin is NOT lighter than the actual PRR color sample from the B-60. Can anyone provide more information on the "correct" Tuscan for PRR and Pullman cars in the 1939-45 era (my model railroad)? I've been using the old dio-sol based Tuscan by Floquil because it matches the actual B-60 color sample very well. -- thanks -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 12:37:46 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/25/99 12:18 PM, doloris mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Hello,, while everyone is talking tenders and Loco boilers, how >about a another idea? Being the material you work with is relatively >easy to work with, how about a Round House? I would imagine it would not >be too difficult to make a mold for the walls and mass produce them >pretty quick. It can be made so you can have as many stalls as one >wishes, up to a comlete circle! Pennsy had lots of USRA style Round >houses, maye start with that or begin with the more famous ones; >Altoona, Philly, etc. Interesting thought! Only hitch is that it seems every roundhouse had different depths to their stalls. I plan to do the Harrisburg roundhouse. It had 30 stalls. Off the top of my head, I think 18 were 120' long and 12 were 160' long. Something like that, anyway. Are towers next? Need I remind the list that we overwhelmed our last resin-molder, forcing him all-but out of the business. It got really ugly. Let's be appreciative of what MC has already accomplished (BP20's out, ERIE-builts all but done, C-Liners next) and be VERY patient for future products! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:23:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project Pat, I'd like echo the comments on tenders and Lines West designs. Lines West did not have an E6 but an earlier E3 4-4-2 with a slimmer boiler that later was juiced up into something called an E7. Likewise for the consolidation. Lines West had an H8 and H10 but no H9s, the model currently available from Bowser. H8 had a smaller boiler while difference between h9 and H10 involve factors I need to look up. I just know I looked info this when I purchase the E6 and H9 kits and found no easy way to convert them. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Tenders Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:22:46 -0500 Hi All! The subject of accurate tenders has come up repeatedly, and is something that we could address, as the gentleman we're negotiated with has built numerous tenders for his own use. The way he got proficient at building boilers and tenders from scratch was that he decided to model the Quebec Central (his grandfather worked for them) and there is literally nothing available that is even close to their engines. So he's been at it for 30 years, and now he's interested in making a few $$ using his skills. I'm hoping it will all work out, and you guys can have a bigger selection of steam to choose from. It's obvious to me (one of those freaky diesel types) that steam is still a going concern in the model business, what with the Bachman 2-8-0 (which gets my vote for the most beautiful mass produced model I've ever seen) and the Athearn Mike coming out. Not to mention some of the other nice mechanisms that have hit the market in the last few years. (IHC, etc.) I have some idea what it costs to produce such a thing, and if they're spending the money, they must be pretty confident that there's a good market. Keep those suggestions coming! Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:41:44 EST In a message dated 2/24/99 4:16:16 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Of course, what we really need are some decent PRR tenders >> Amen! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:18:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders Pat, Hello,, while everyone is talking tenders and Loco boilers, how about a another idea? Being the material you work with is relatively easy to work with, how about a Round House? I would imagine it would not be too difficult to make a mold for the walls and mass produce them pretty quick. It can be made so you can have as many stalls as one wishes, up to a comlete circle! Pennsy had lots of USRA style Round houses, maye start with that or begin with the more famous ones; Altoona, Philly, etc. Just a Thought! Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:00:14 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project As I recall, the H8, 9, and 10 all had the same boiler. The primary difference was the diameter of the cylinders! The boiler proved so capable that they kept enlarging the cylinders to use all the steam it could produce. The cylinders grew by one inch each time. Perhaps the casting to make is a new set of cylinders for the Bowser boiler. BTW Unless I missed it, no one has suggested a J1. A major oversight. Are we all allergic to anything without a Belpaire firebox? ;-) BTW2 Someone reminded us that the boilers must be HEAVY! The weight of a Bowser boiler is its most desirable feature. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > Pat, > > I'd like echo the comments on tenders and Lines West designs. > Lines West did not have an E6 but an earlier E3 4-4-2 with a slimmer boiler > that later was juiced up into something called an E7. > Likewise for the consolidation. Lines West had an H8 and H10 but no H9s, the > model currently available from Bowser. H8 had a smaller boiler while > difference between h9 and H10 involve factors I need to look up. I just know I > looked info this when I purchase the E6 and H9 kits and found no easy way to > convert them. > > Tom V. > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:16:28 -0500 Hi Garrett! You're right about that. If we go forward with this project, we'll need to pick mechanisms that are currently available, and by available I mean you can actually get one in a reasonable time, not 2 years. BTW, thanks to everyone who has responded so far! We appreciate the response, and sorry if we can't reply to everyone individually. Anyone who hasn't responded, please let us know your preferences, so they can be taken into account. Regards, Pat Lawless Subject: Boiler Project From: "Garrett Rea" Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:18:45 -0000 Gents: One thing to keep in mind with some of the suggestions of making boilers for Bachman frames is that Bachman, like everyone else for some unknown reason, is limiting production on items. Food for thought- Garrett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:02:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass. Tuscan '39-'45 In his book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering Chuck Blardone and Peter Tulip include color chip samples. The following "Tuscan" colors are shown: PRR Maroon #47-2249 and Pullman Dark Tuscan #70-19 same color (window band) PRR Tuscan red #47-2424 and Pullman Lt. Tuscan #70-18 same color (body) Pullman Red # 70-60 used on the Texas Special, Meteor, MKT-Frisco and PRR light weight cars in these services Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:24:24 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark Bej Sent: Thursday, February 25, 1999 9:12 AM To: Richard F. Makse Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ABL signal (was: PRR COLORS? (was: D&R canal ) ) Mark, you stated: Dick, this is not what I was suggesting that Bob may have been thinking of. (damn, this is getting convoluted!) Let me rephrase: was there ever an ABL signal [sign] used _alone_, minus a position-light or semaphore signal, in the rear of a position-light or semaphore manual block home signal? In other words, we all accept that a _typical_ progression (for MBS territory) would be PL distant signal --> PL home signal and ABL sign[al] --> BL sign[al] but was there ever a ABL sign[al] --> PL home signal ------------------------------------ Mark, when I answered your question I assumed what you meant, i.e., ABL--->PL Home signal; and my answer was "typically no." Which is correct. ABB. > While there were instances where > part-time block stations with distant signals coexisted with part-time block > limit stations with ABL signs, the PRR intentionally avoided putting two > different "rules" on the same mast. I always saw them on separate masts even > if they were only a few feet apart. Ah, yet another combination. So ... did the PL signal govern when the block station was manned, and the ABL govern when it was closed (and presumably remote-controlled from some other location?) --------------------------- Yes the PL distant and the PL home governed when the block station was open. When the block station was unoccupied the PLs were extinguished and the ABL and BLS governed. And yes the now unoccupied block station was controlled from another open block station. ABB > Bob, please note that you would never > really find an ABL anywhere near an MBS. Near an MBS home signal? Or is such terminology redundant? (I.e., another way to ask this question is to ask if a distant signal is an MBS signal?) ----------------------------- I guess the correct terminology would be, it is a distant signal to a Manual Block Signal. It is part of the Manual Block Signal System. ABB I guess when I started this I should have not just said MBS as my meaning was Manual Block System, not Manual Block Signal. I should have said MBSS - Manual Block Signal System. Perhaps that would have clarified my intentions. ABB. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:54:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders In a message dated 2/25/99 1:12:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: > Pennsy had lots of USRA style Round > houses, maye start with that or begin with the more famous ones; > Altoona, Philly, etc. Just a Thought! Gary Did we ever get finished listing PRR (or other) USRA roundhouses? Did we ever decide the spotting features? Thanks, Rick Tipton PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:29:52 -0600 From: "Capt. J. R. N. Witmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Greek tug Epta According to the railroad's Floating Equipment Record, the PRR acquired the Exmore from the United States Maritime Administration on November 23, 1946. I see in my research notes that she went to Savannah in 1972, where she lasted until 1982, at which time she was sunk as a reef. This may, however, actually have been Dover. My records indicate that the PRR bought six tugs from the Maritime Administration after WWII: Bloxom, Cheriton, Dover, Exmore, Linden, and Tasley. All were 573 gross tons and 142.2 feet in length. They were built at Point Pleasant, West Virginia by Marietta Manufacturing Company. Perhaps Tasley, the mystery boat, may have wound up in Greece. She disappears from USCG records in 1963 and I never was able to find out what happened to her. One of the post-war fleet, the Philadelphia, was, up to a few years ago at least, in the Norfolk area. She is or was pretty much unrecognizable due to the extensive modifications. Her sister ship Chicago was up in New England and occasionally working. Buffalo and Cleveland went to Cape Fear Towing in North Carolina. The last group of tugs built for the PRR, seven in all, went south to Louisiana, except for New York, which sank under tow in the Gulf of Mexico on her way down to New Orleans. I suspect that the six in Louisiana and the two in Carolina may still be working. Their hulls were built very heavily, with thick plating to withstand the stress of hipping. Most of them received new, more powerful engines, so they could have quite long useful lives. Ten years ago, when I did this research, they were earning their keep. Cheers, Captain Jack ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:18:25 -0800 From: steve long Subject: [PRR] Indianapolis Transfer yard Here's a scan of the Transfer yard in 1962, It show where Woods stood and Van Junction. Kraft is out of sight to the west. "O" running track was still in place from Davis to Transfer yard until 1980. This was an extra track that ran on the south side and kept traffic from the Vincennes branch and I&F off the mains. Just thought someone may be interested. Steve Long ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:54:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project In a message dated 2/25/99 1:36:28 PM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << BTW Unless I missed it, no one has suggested a J1. A major oversight. Are we all allergic to anything without a Belpaire firebox? ;-) >> Hurdle is mechanisms. The N1 had 62" drivers, like the I1 and I think someone(Cary?) made a USRA boiler to fit (which would have made a sort-of N2,except the real N2 had 63" drivers--close enough for me). So an N1 might be a modelable item,using a Miracle Castings boiler and Bowser mechanism. J1 had 70" drivers. Baker valve gear--not Walschaerts. New tenders needed in any case. Love to have a J1, though I have a good running older Gem brass version,but a boiler alone won't do it. I am assuming Bowser doesn't have any tooling left from the Arbour kit. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:37:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Love to have a J1, though I have a good running older Gem brass version,but a > boiler alone won't do it. I am assuming Bowser doesn't have any tooling left > from the Arbour kit. I think denizens of rec.models.railroad claim the J1 was of poor quality; Search Dejanews for old messages matching: Harman Arbour and then follow the thread.... Or maybe that was the Allegheny -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:23:25 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 25 Feb, Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Hurdle is mechanisms. [ ... ] Why not make powered tenders and let the loco roll? You don't get wheelslip, but that's pretty dicey anyway. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: Re: [PRR] Greek tug Epta Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:44:33 -0500 --****welll, what an honor to have Captain Jack on-line !!!!!!! fantastic, as the delay betwixt q and a will be minimal.... Gee, you can even email me for additional clues if needed for my prr keystone crossword puzzles...??!!!! Welcome, nice to see some additional factual folks here !!!........bill strassner..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:09:13 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Last Run Good evening all... I have just received word tonight that my dad passed away about 9 PM from a heart attack. I don't know if i'll be on the next few days or not. He was conductor first for PC..then Conrail and Amtrak. (1969-1999) He was to retire in about another year or so. I guess posting this is helping me deal with the greif. I don't even know if this is the right medium for a post like this. So many times we look at and only pay attention to the trains we love and sometimes forget the folks who run them, such is this hobby. For me its always been a bit more personal because he worked on them. And for that i am thankful. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:39:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project Pat, Here are three quick projects: A replacement boiler for the H-9s or H-10s for the MDC chassis A replacement boiler for the L-1s for the Bowser chassis A replacement boiler for the USRA 2-10-2 for the N-2sa These should be cash cows for your company. The mechanisms are good, but the boilers are useless to use PRR modelers. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:02:17 -0500 Hi Pat: I think Miracle Casting's idea to make metal-filled resin boiler conversion kits is great. I have listed some random thoughts that may be helpful. As an retired organic chemist I have had some experience with casting resins, ( I am still an Industrial Paint Consultant). I am concerned with your ability to get sufficient metal filler into a casting resin to make a heavy boiler and still get enough flow to fill the detail in the mold. It is well known that the heavy boiler is what makes a Bowser locomotive able to pull the paint off the wall. I disagree with your assessment of the market. Since I have only been in HO Scale for a little over 50 years, I don't know all the answers (It took me 40 of those years to find that out.) I have slightly different view of the market. Your competition is not the brass locomotives. Instead, it is Bowser locomotives. Brass locomotives are "ready to run". Bowser locomotives are "kits". As an owner of nearly 60 locomotives, most of them steam and many of them Bowser, I have at least one of every major class. The main exception is the S1, because I refuse to pay $1800.00. Obviously, my choice for your endeavor is the S1. It would seem to me, that you should address PRR classes not produced by Bowser. For example, we don't really need another K4. However we do need C1, D16sb, G5, K5, M1, N1, S1, and both Q's. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:40:33 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Steel mill list From: locoshop@juno.com Hello there all, I am looking to see if there is a e-mail list out there that is for steel mills and there related facilities? This would include items used, cars, locomotives, rail operations, commodities and such for steel mills. If there is not one, what would be the interest in an item like this? Please respond off list to locoshop@juno.com on this one. I am very interested in this industry and am actually looking at doing a good sized model of one in HO scale (see Jim Six, you were right I would come back around eventually) in our new home. I have a 10' x 8' room with another 12' wing that I can add on the one 8' side of the room that runs into the laundry room. This will be done in David Barrow-style 4' X 18 or 24" modules that can be easily transported when we move again. Sorry about that little side bar. Please let me know if you would be interested in this though. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:04:35 -0600 From: George Pierson Subject: [PRR] Huletts Hi, all, I recently caught the part of a report on NPR about the Cleveland Huletts. Apparantly their ultimate fate is still very much up in the air, although there are moves afoot to preserve one or more of them. There's even a web site on them, so if you want to see these remarkable machines survive, now's the time to get involved. -- George Pierson Dept. of Philosophy (george.pierson@trnty.edu) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:23:12 EST Subject: [PRR] NX23 and XL info needed for Urbana The folks in Urbana, Ohio, are looking for any information they can get on the NX23 cabin car and XL class boxcars. E-mail responses to: dkotter@foryou.net Thanks, Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 05:48:06 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Last Run Hank, Please accept my condolences on the passing of your father. I think I speak for most of the list members in agreeing with your comment about not paying much attention to the folks who run the trains we attempt to model and have fun with; hence, I feel this is a good venue to not only recognize that, but also help you, as a member of the overall railroad fraternity (real or model) deal with the loss. Again, my condolences, Chuck Friedlein bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Good evening all... > > I have just received word tonight that my dad passed away about > 9 PM from a heart attack. I don't know if i'll be on the next > few days or not. He was conductor first for PC..then Conrail > and Amtrak. (1969-1999) He was to retire in about another year > or so. I guess posting this is helping me deal with the > greif. I don't even know if this is the right medium for a > post like this. So many times we look at and only pay attention to > the trains we love and sometimes forget the folks who > run them, such is this hobby. For me its always been a bit more > personal because he worked on them. And for that i am thankful. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:03:09 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Last Run Dear Hank: My deepest sympathies to you and your family over the loss of your father! Any "medium" is correct to tell of the passing of a friend or loved one. I would go a little further and say that at least on this list ( and other railroad related lists) where civility, mutual respect and common interest - breed friendship. Even though many of us may never actually meet in person, we all share a common thread of life. Sharing our losses with each other can only strengthen that bond! Well say an extra prayer for you and your family. cos bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Good evening all... > > I have just received word tonight that my dad passed away about > 9 PM from a heart attack. I don't know if i'll be on the next > few days or not. He was conductor first for PC..then Conrail > and Amtrak. (1969-1999) He was to retire in about another year > or so. I guess posting this is helping me deal with the > greif. I don't even know if this is the right medium for a > post like this. So many times we look at and only pay attention to > the trains we love and sometimes forget the folks who > run them, such is this hobby. For me its always been a bit more > personal because he worked on them. And for that i am thankful. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: [PRR] PRR Electrics Questions Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:20:30 -0500 The following questions apply to the O1 (2-B-2), P5 (2-C-2), and L5 (1-D-1). When were these built and when were they retired? How many of each were there? How were they typically operated, single units, MU within same class, MU with other classes? If in MU, how large was a typical lashup? Ever MUed with GG1s? Thanx for all answers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:55:23 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRR Sodus tug (was Greek tug Epta) Ahoy Captain Jack, Wow, nice information on PRR tugs!...The PRR apparently had a tug stationed at Sodus Point, NY on Lake Ontario for many years. Do you have any information on that tug? Happy Sails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits - Weight issue Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:11:57 -0500 Hi All! Carl Izzo wrote: >Hi Pat: >I think Miracle Casting's idea to make metal-filled resin boiler conversion >kits is great. I have listed some random thoughts that may be helpful. >As an retired organic chemist I have had some experience with casting >resins, ( I am still an Industrial Paint Consultant). I am concerned with >your ability to get sufficient metal filler into a casting resin to make a >heavy boiler and still get enough flow to fill the detail in the mold. It >is well known that the heavy boiler is what makes a Bowser locomotive able >to pull the paint off the wall. Wouldn't a scraper be easier? In all seriousness Carl, this is also my main concern. I have several possible solutions, but my biggest question is, "How heavy does a locomotive have to be?" I don't have a collection of Bowser locos in front of me, so I don't have a benchmark to compare to. My current read on this problem is that we will probably make the boiler casting almost entirely hollow, with room for both the mechanism, and a cast resin weight which will be filled with lead shot. This should add quite a lot of weight, depending on the diameter of the boiler. Will it add as much as a Bowser? I don't know yet. >I disagree with your assessment of the market. Since I have only been in HO >Scale for a little over 50 years, I don't know all the answers (It took me >40 of those years to find that out.) I have slightly different view of the >market. Your competition is not the brass locomotives. Instead, it is >Bowser locomotives. Brass locomotives are "ready to run". >Bowser locomotives are "kits". >As an owner of nearly 60 locomotives, most of them steam and many of them >Bowser, I have at least one of every major class. The main exception is the >S1, because I refuse to pay $1800.00. Obviously, my choice for your >endeavor is the S1. I appreciate your opinion Carl. Although I'd prefer it more if you had more years of experience in HO. 50 is a little slim for my liking. ;-) My comment about brass is a general one, which would probably apply more to non-Pennsy modellers than to you guys, as the other guys haven't had a company like Bowser out there making steamers for their enjoyment. >It would seem to me, that you should address PRR classes not produced by >Bowser. For example, we don't really need another K4. However we do need >C1, D16sb, G5, K5, M1, N1, S1, and both Q's. All duly noted! Thanks again to everyone who has responded to our question. Sorry we haven't been able to respond to each e-mail individually, but we eventually will. Keep those comments coming! Regards, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:00:57 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#71576872: railroads I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Someone on the list is going to want this one...It's out of print and a gem for anyone interested in this branch. I have a copy. Highly recommend. Title of item: railroads PENNSYLVANIA RR - ELMIRA BRANCH Seller: rbm@r-mac.com Starts: 02/26/99 07:31:20 PST Ends: 03/05/99 07:31:20 PST Price: Starts at $10.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=71576872 Item Description: R-MAC PUBLICATIONS, INC. ~ Great books and literature on trains ~ SPECIAL SEARCH CATEGORIES WE USE FOR TRAIN ITEMS - ho train - train book - train video - railroad - - lionel - steam - diesel - railroads - trains - - train - rails - rail fans - DESCRIPTION **** Title: PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD'S ELMIRA BRANCH Cover: Soft Pages: 98 Published: 1993 Condition: Excellent. Details: Great reference on the Elmira Branch of the PRR. Good text and photographs. B&W and Color. Great for PRR enthusiasts. Out of print.   PLEASE CLICK TO SEE OTHER ITEMS LIKE THIS SHIPPING TO US AND CANADA ONLY - CLICK FOR INFO REGARDING OVERSEAS SHIPMENT CONDITIONS OF SALE SHIPPING AND INSURANCE THIS ITEM: In the U.S. only: When winning multiple auctions use the following: First auction $5.00; 2 auction $8.00; 3 or more auctions $10.00 Shipping to Canada is on an individual basis and is in addition to US postage. Declared value to Canada includes bid price plus shipping and insurance. We regret that we no longer ship overseas routinely. Contact us if this presents a problem for you. CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION Credit cards are ok in the US and Canada. You may use: Checks, Money Orders or charge it to: Visa, MC, Discover or AMEX. To send your credit card number: Send two E-Mail messages each with half your credit card number and include the NAME ON THE CARD. Identify the auction by its EBAY number and don't forget to include the expiration date on your credit card. Payment is due within 14 working days after the auction closes. 30 days after the auction closes your item will be relisted. IN ALL COMMUNICATIONS WITH US, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE AUCTION CLOSES, REMEMBER TO USE YOUR EBAY AUCTION NUMBER Click here to visit our EBAY page including the CERTIFICATE OF DISTINCTION comments about Ebay problems and problem bidders, and you may, if you wish, tour the R-Mac HO Scale demonstration layout   Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:04:19 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Last Run Hank: May the Lord give you his deepest comfort. What you've described is why it's always satisfying to meet List and e-mail friends face to face, whether at shows, Altoona Railfest, NRHS events, Strasburg Pennsy Days, or trackside waiting for Mail-9. It's the human side that gives us all the glue to hold us in common-interest relationships, whether that's trains or baseball or music. Otherwise we might as well just copy all our stuff, exchange it with each other, and go home. Despite the way we all (me included) think and act sometimes, the stuff isn't the thing, it's just what brings us together. Thanks for having the courage to share your loss. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 119:105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:12:59 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling PRR in N-Scale From: locoshop@juno.com I must say that I have been into modeling PRR in N scale. I am currently awaiting a copy of the Keystone so I may finish working on a pair of PRR L1s with the Kato Mikado and the GHQ conversion kit. I also have a few older Micro-Trains cars to run with the L1s when completed, but this is the extent of my collection as far as PRR, most of it consists of NS and Conrail stuff right now. The N scale layout that I am planning on doing will be sort of small with no real place picked out. Also, if into steam do not forget the Minitrix Decapod I1 and Pacific K4, with a little work these run well from what I understand. On 24 Feb, "Lewis Schaller" wrote: > >Anyone else out there modeling PRR in N-scale, I am thinking of modeling > it from Philly to Pittsburgh with Harrisburg as the highpoint since > that's where I grew up. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:58:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project In a message dated 2/26/99 1:10:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << Here are three quick projects: A replacement boiler for the H-9s or H-10s for the MDC chassis A replacement boiler for the L-1s for the Bowser chassis A replacement boiler for the USRA 2-10-2 for the N-2sa These should be cash cows for your company. The mechanisms are good, but the boilers are useless to use PRR modelers. >> Pat and Greg: Great list of projects. But I might suggest using the forthcoming Athearn Genesis USRA 2-8-2 for the L1s Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling PRR in N-Scale Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:44:50 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 24 Feb, "Lewis Schaller" wrote: > Anyone else out there modeling PRR in N-scale, I am thinking of modeling > it from Philly to Pittsburgh with Harrisburg as the highpoint since > that's where I grew up. There are several of us; for the most part, scale doesn't matter in this forum (except for all those interminable discussions about just what's wrong with a Bowser kit :-). I have a layout-in-planning to fit part of the former stable I'm using as a garage; it's not a model of any specific piece of the PRR, and I have at least one good story to tell about its origin, but I do have the opportunity to model some specific scenes, like the Safe Harbor Dam area with the two bridges along the Susquehanna (see the recent Conrail Trains issue, the opening spread of the motive power article). I model 1954, the year I was born, which works out well for models, with all the first-generation diesels out there (E8, E7, PA, FA, F3, RS-[123], SW1200) and the Arnold GG1 is still a good model (if only somebody would make a P5!). Also, freight car color was changed in 1952, and Shadow Keystone appeared in early 1954, so I get Circle Keystone cars in two colors, plus Shadow Keystone, all at the same time. Red Caboose makes styrene RTR X29 models, and Fine N Scale makes resin kits for X29, X31, and X32. Cheers! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Condolences to Hank Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:00:15 -0500 Hi All. Just wanted to pass on our condolences to Hank on the passing of his Dad. Sounds like he lived the life that many of us railroad buffs would like to live; being in, around, and on trains every working day! Again, our condolences Hank, and hope to see you back on the list soon. Pat, Mike, and Scott Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:08:20 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: boiler conversions Hi Pat Lawless & all: Roger Elliott wrote: > Hello Pat at MC, > While I like what you've done in HO, is there any hope for us in N-scale > for some boiler conversions? I'd like to see a streamlined K4 or a > decapod. I think there are several excellent possibilities for N scale shells to fit existing mechanisms. As Roger mentioned, a streamlined shell for a Trix K4 is a good idea, also quite possible is a K2/K3 shell to fit on the existing K4 mech. H9/H10 shells to fit the Bachmann 2-8-0 mech would also be well received. GHQ appears to be doing quite well with their cast-metal kits which offer N-scale shells for PRR L1 locos (used on USRA 2-8-2 mech with added etails provided by GHQ - including loco trailing truck). GHQ has offered quite a number of shells by now - something like 1/2 dozen, so clearly the market is supporting their efforts, and folks are spending their bucks buying them. This is strong evidence that there are sufficient numbers to make this financially feasible. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits - Weight issue Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:57:38 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Miracle Castings Inc. To: PRR Talk Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 2:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits - Weight issue >Carl Izzo wrote: > >>It would seem to me, that you should address PRR classes not produced by >>Bowser. For example, we don't really need another K4. However we do need >>C1, D16sb, G5, K5, M1, N1, S1, and both Q's. > >All duly noted! >Pat Lawless >Miracle Castings Inc. > Doesn't Bowser have a G5? How about adding classes B6sb and B8 (both tender and sadle tank versions). Perhaps the Roundhouse 0-6-0 could serve as a mechanism (particularly for the B8 as they had slide valves as does the Roundhouse engine). They were listed in the Walthers catalogue ( in 98, don't have 99) and there must be a lot around at swap meets. Bruce Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Sodus tug (was Greek tug Epta) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 13:10:57 -0500 From: Jerry On 2/26/99 9:55 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >Wow, nice information on PRR tugs!...The PRR apparently had a tug stationed >at Sodus Point, NY on Lake Ontario for many years. Do you have any >information on that tug? There's a photo of it in Gunnarson's "History of the Northern Central Railway." Believe the name was "Cornelia" or something. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:15:00 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:Boiler Project In message <004201be60da$338f02e0$2fddacce@mfreeman.advantage.ca>, Miracle Castings Inc. writes >If we go forward with this project, >we'll need to pick mechanisms that are currently available, and by available >I mean you can actually get one in a reasonable time, not 2 years. BTW, >thanks to everyone who has responded so far! We appreciate the response, >and sorry if we can't reply to everyone individually. Anyone who hasn't >responded, please let us know your preferences, so they can be taken into >account. Pat & the Group My choice would be one that's not been mentioned so far.... the C1 0-8-0. The majority of steam era Pennsy layouts can cope with another switcher and not that many second hand brass examples seem to be around. Would make a nice change from B6sb's, I know I could use one. Chassis for those not making their own could be from the relatively inexpensive IHC (2-8-0) ignoring the over large drivers if you're not that fussy, and the tender could be based around the Roundhouse PRR tender which is available seperately. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:40:20 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Electrics Questions Bill Asked: >The following questions apply to the O1 (2-B-2), P5 (2-C-2), and L5 (1-D-1). > >When were these built and when were they retired? How many of each were >there? >How were they typically operated, single units, MU within same class, MU >with other classes? >If in MU, how large was a typical lashup? Ever MUed with GG1s? There were 8 O-1 locos (sublasses -,a,b,c) Only sub members of the same class could be MUed together. The O-1s were built 1932 or 33, and scrapped through the 40's. There were 91 P5 locomotives built in 1932-34. Two, #4700 and 4791 were the prototype P5s, 4791 was scrapped in 1951 and 4700 is preserved. There was only one P5b, #4702. There were 88 P5a locos, of which 59 were boxcabs and 29 were modified including 4770 which was rebuilt from a wrecked boxcab in 1945 as the only welded P5a modified. Many P5a were scrapped in the late 50's, and all were scrapped by the PC merger. Boxcabs outlived modifieds for some reason. P5s could be MUed together, across subclasses, and MUed with other classes including GG-1, E2B, E2C, E3B, E44 (I think). Lash ups were generally limited to double heading until the late 50's, and if possible, a modified led. Triple headers were seen on occaisions, but were not common. P5s were also used in helper service on the A&S (two on the front, one "snapper" on the rear) I'll leave the L5 "siderodders" for someone else (however, since they did not operate from catenary, they would not have been MUed with GG1s) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. 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From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:31:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: boiler conversions A K-2 or K-3 Pacific shell would make a great kit - but take a look at that wacky valve gear before you get to excited - I'm not in HO scale but I think a smaller boilered E-5 Atlantic on the Bowser mechanism would make a nice piece - or an E-2, E-3 - E-7 boiler for the old Roudhouse chassis - remember, per the Strasburg Loco these engines had a "fixed" (non pivoting) trailing truck Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 18:46:30 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Pat: Thank you for your interest in this endeavor! Although I have not purchased a BP-20 A/B set yet, I am looking forward in doing so soon. The photos of the assembled unit on your web page rival that of the Oriental Limited brass version. Well, her is my list of potential PRR items that can be done in resin: 1. K-4 #3678 streamlined version 2. K-4 #1120 the other streamlined version In addition to these K-4's which would require a resin of the complete boiler and tender, other K-4's versions would require smaller parts made from resin. These would include: 3. K-4 #1188 "The Skyline" with the manifold atop the boiler 4. K-4 #5038 with the smoke deflectors and smokebox manifold I also think that a standard K-4 boiler would be beneficial too for kitbashing and the L-1. All of these I mentioned could run on the existing Bowser drive (which should be available over the long term) 5. Other boilers can be made to fit existing Bowser drives. These models are not available: K-5, N-1, and N-2. 6. Other boilers can be made to fit existing drives of existing Bowser models G-5, E-6, M-1/a/b, L-1, I-l, T-1, and A-5 switcher 7. How about DOODLEBUGS? Using the existing Athearn drive from the MDC unit as a starting point, I think a variety of doodlebugs that the Pennsy had could be modelled. Models like the Brill 250, and the 350 and the EMC models including that "shovel nose" streamlined version. 8. Passenger cars? Remember those heavyweight passenger cars whose roofs were streamlined and truck skirts were added during the "Fleet of Modernism" era of the late 1930's? I don't think that the entire car be made of resin but maybe just the roof and truck skirts for the AHM Pullman heavyweight or for Union Station Products or Brass Car Sides. 9. And of course, tenders, tenders, and tenders. They can be made to fit on the Bowser tender frame. Also, different doghouses could me modelled such as that 3-man version for the I-1 original tenders. Pat, please do not be intimidated by my list. I am merely listing off possible opportunities for you to consider. I think there is a market for you in Pennsy as well as other railroads. Sincerely Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana P.S. Will be buying a A-B-A set of Erie Builts when they are available ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Author: "Miracle Castings Inc." at Internet Date: 2/24/99 12:14 PM Hi Everybody! Miracle Castings is looking for input for a potential project we're getting involved in. We're currently negotiating with a gentleman who is an expert in producing accurate boiler shapes, quickly, and we're trying to determine what kind of interest is out there for boiler conversions. The kits would be metal-filled resin, and include cabs where appropriate. Domes would be included, but not detail parts such as pumps, etc., unless they were unavailable elsewhere. As a wild guess, we'd probably be looking at pricing in the $75.00 range and up, depending on boiler size, complexity, number of added parts, etc. I have to stress that nothings been decided or agreed upon yet, but we really need to know what classes of steamers you folks would like to see, and what you consider to be an acceptable price for such a product (keeping in mind that the alternative is brass ;-) ) Please let us hear your opinions and suggestions! Regards, Pat Lawless miracle-castings@on.aibn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:44:03 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Dad Hi guys.... Thanks for all the condolences and support during this time. I'll be off for a while after this post. I'll probably be back sometime next week. Jerry...i'll get in contact with you later next week. I talked to my step mother's sister (dad's sister in law). Part of the plans for this is for him to be buried in their family plot up in New York state. Dad lived in Fredrickburg, Va. Fittingly he'll be riding one last time between Washington and New York...(with a connection to Albany). Probably on No. 80 I could'nt have hoped for anything better for him. This was something a lot of us in the family wanted to see done for him. His sister inlaws husband also works for Amtrak at Union Station in DC (electrician) and is arranging this. He'll probably be put on the train Monday night. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:28:35 -0600 From: "Capt. J. R. N. Witmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Sodus tug (was Greek tug Epta) Hi Bruce, She was the Cornelia, built about 1902, and listed as belonging to the Northern Central. That is all, unfortunately, that I know about her. Since the PRR had an 800-foot pier in Sodus Point for the shipping of coal to Canada, she may have been used to help berth the ships using the facility. Cheers, Captain Jack Ahoy Captain Jack, > >Wow, nice information on PRR tugs!...The PRR apparently had a tug stationed >at Sodus Point, NY on Lake Ontario for many years. Do you have any >information on that tug? > >Happy Sails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:16:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits From: Patrick M Egan You'd the tender for the streamlined K4, too. Pat Egan (no web access) On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:04:11 EST BPX29@aol.com writes: >Pat, >Would your boiler castings have to be strictly Pennsy? If not, some of >the >USRA designs might be promising. Otherwise, a streamlined K4 would be >tempting >(or even better, for some of us, would be a streamlined B&O casting, >but them >I guess we'd need a tender too). Any chance of a Reading engine? That >Wooten >firebox might appeal to CNJ, LV and DL&W fans too, and others. >Barry Peltier > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:50:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West Fans Fest update moving and dedicating Folks, I either over estimated the size of the Greene County historical Society Museum or under estimated the size of the Fan Fest. When I tried to find enough space in the Historical Society Carriage House Museum for the Cincinnati Division modelers, I realized there wouldn't be room for anything else. I'm having to move the Lines West Fans Fest to larger quarters. My first Choice is a National. Guard Armory two blocks north on US 68 or at the Greene County Fairgrounds. For those wanting to see the Historical Society layout, it well be open and operating April 10, I've been assured. The construction of the replica of the Yellow Springs Panhandle depot is proceeding on schedule with completion expected April 1.I talked with the village manager today and he is willing to consider holding its dedication in conjunctim with the Fans Fest. I'll have answers to both these questions Monday. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] Last Run Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:33:13 -0500 **********Hank- ALL OF my sympathies.....I will mention this at our next NARVRE meeting in Red Bank, as some of our fellows remembered your Dad when I mentioned his name last meeting. They are mostly NY Div guys, but everyone meets everyone sooner or later, in Philly, layovers, etc. Anything, anytime, bill********* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:34:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks Hey Guys, Is there a resource there describing and listing Pennsy trucks, or has anybody put together a list of accurate Pennsy trucks. If three isn't, I guess I'll have to start researching one. The answer that I need right know is what was the classification of the single spring cast truck that Bowser makes for its N5 and N5C kits? Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:29:10 EST Subject: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers I'm currently researching the N6 class of cabin cars. I'd like to hear from someone who's made the N scale GloorCraft N6B kit or who can tell me if there are any alternatives to it if you want to model N6 class in N. Scale. Does GloorCraft sell and N Scale detail parts like they do in HO. Are Arch bar trucks available? What about the single spring cast trucks the class of which forget. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:21:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling PRR in N-Scale Hey guys, take the opportunity to make your case to Pat Lawless for more N scale boiler conversion kits and tenders. Now don't expect anything right off but it may pay great dividends in the future. When the guys in Xenia were deciding how to build the Operating Diorama of Xenia's Railroads, much thought was given to using N scale because less compression would be needed to include more of the yards accurately depicting the relative size of the facility. Since this was for a museum and a strong feeling that steam locomotives needed to be included, HO scale was chosen because of a paucity of off-the-shelf N scale Pennsy steam compared to the availability of the Bowser kits. I'd make some suggestions but since I model HO, I don't know where to start Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:39:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks In a message dated 2/26/99 11:29:43 PM Central Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << Is there a resource there describing and listing Pennsy trucks, or has anybody put together a list of accurate Pennsy trucks. If three isn't, I guess I'll have to start researching one. >> In addition to the Keystone, Rail Line News had an article on freight trucks in general about a year ago, referencing some Pennsy when appropriate and listing model trucks available for the various types. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:18:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks In a message dated 2/27/99 12:29:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << Is there a resource there describing and listing Pennsy trucks, or has anybody put together a list of accurate Pennsy trucks. If three isn't, I guess I'll have to start researching one. The answer that I need right know is what was the classification of the single spring cast truck that Bowser makes for its N5 and N5C kits? >> I know various keystones I have have covered trucks and I seem to remember an article or two on trucks a few years back when the Pennsy Hopper series rain in MODEL RAILROADING. I know the articles in Model Railroading were based on HO truck availability. I'll look through my Keystones to try to find the info but it could take me awhile. Somebody on the list pprobably knows this off the top of their head. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:59:28 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Lines West displays and Vendors welcomed Hey ya'll, In light of my last post, I'll be having more space for the PRR Lines West Fans Fest so I can accommodate more STUFF. If you have any suggestions about PRR-oriented groups or PRR-oriented vendors or manufacturers who should be invited let me know by e-mail. Good contact information would be appreciated if it accompanied the e-mail Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:06:42 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] Official Pullman Standard Library Vol. 4 PRR - #'ed Hi All, I have a chance to purchase the Pennsy volume of the Pullman Library. What would be a fair price to offer seller for this volume. Condition unknown, at present. Assume "Good+" for comment. Thanks, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:03:53 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Official Pullman Standard Library Vol. 4 PRR - #'ed A fellow had a copy at a train show here in Michigan recently. He was asking $65.00 for it but I understand he sold it at the end of the show for $50.00. Don't know how this pricing compares to the rest of the country. Frank Brua Ron Dugas wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a chance to purchase the Pennsy volume of the Pullman Library. > What would be a fair price to offer seller for this volume. Condition > unknown, at present. Assume "Good+" for comment. > > Thanks, > > Ron. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:11:07 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: [PRR] Last Run bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Good evening all... > > I have just received word tonight that my dad passed away about > 9 PM from a heart attack. I don't know if i'll be on the next > few days or not. He was conductor first for PC..then Conrail > and Amtrak. (1969-1999) He was to retire in about another year > or so. I guess posting this is helping me deal with the > greif. I don't even know if this is the right medium for a > post like this. So many times we look at and only pay attention to > the trains we love and sometimes forget the folks who > run them, such is this hobby. For me its always been a bit more > personal because he worked on them. And for that i am thankful. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > You have my most sincere sympathy. My dad also died of a heart attack, in his case while on duty at age 55. He was a yardmaster for PRR, PC, and CR, from 1942 to 1980. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:21:17 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Boilers and Tenders and such ...oh my This is a repost of a mis sent e-mail. Hi Folks... This e-mail is for everyone who is interested...but mainly for those who have brought up certain aspects of this. On boilers.... I built the boiler for K-5 master for Joe Zappa (Liberty Model Productions) from the NEW Bowser I-1 boiler. It would/will be nice if and when Joe gets around to producing this engine. The last i talked to him about this was less than a month ago. I still think that if Joe and Miracle got together on this something could be worked out sooner and to the benefit of all. Speaking of a E-2 ...E-7 type boiler....one is out there already. Mantua makes this boiler for their engines....perhaps a more correct E-2,E-7 could be made either for this boiler or using this boiler as a base for other classes...one of which could use it is the H-6sb class which is only available in brass. another would be the E-5 class. One of the big faults of the Mantua model is while the boiler is very close for these classes...the running gear is not. It would have made for a better model if they had made correct valve gear for them to mention one thing...The trailing truck is another. But then again Mantua is more of a mass production marketer. I too agree that some form of heavy boiler is needed for proper pulling/traction. Perhaps a plastic or resin boiler with a properly formed weight to go in it. Both type of material for boilers have there good and bad points. As tenders go i've also used the same tender that Mantua makes for their E class engine behind others i have. I have one behind my H-9. There are many photos of this class on H class engines in "Pennsy A to T". The tender most used behind the PRR G-5 class is not available... except the one put out years ago by Liliput...of which i have one. I have seen this class (class type ?) was also used on H and E classes i have seen in photos. This is the one used often in commuter service. One other point i want to make is there is no really affordable model of the B-6sb (or B-6sa for that matter) The American Flyer engine is a collectable and needs much modification for a B model and the only alternative is brass. I might be wrong but i think AHM did a version of the B-6sa in plastic years ago but i'm not sure. This is a shame...Not only is the B-6 not available...but this engine was one of the most widely used and popular switch engines (shifters) on the PRR. Keep in mind that for a good model of either the B-6 or a H-6 we also need correct 56" drivers. Feel free to comment. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 08:20:23 -0500 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] Boiler Conversion Kits Pat, While I agree with the other folks 100% on the tender issue, if you were going to do a boiler, my choice would be for an accurate E3. I have acquired quality PRR steam over the years in most classes, but I have missed the E3. There are many PRR boiler kits which would be nice to have, but without an available drive, what would you do with it? I'm not sure about the accuracy, but there are at least 2 choices for drives to do an E3. After the boiler and the tenders, you could do a P54 coach! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] the newest Keystone = Sporing 1999... Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:08:53 -0500 ****Wow - the Keystone arrived, and this issue is really Super !!! Once again, some of our other list folks are also contributors. Andy H., I am well aware of your fine sense of humor ( ha ! ) but I had no idea that you were also artistically gifted !!! Gorgeous !!! Kudos to our esteemed Editor, CB !!!!!.........bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:51:57 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Brown K4? Firstly, many thanks to those folks who offered views of the LHS of K4 5038. Yes, the deflector had been modified to clear the lubricator. Now I've got the info this particular loco has risen up the 'to build' list, somewhat. There's a Bachmann K4 with a chassis beyond help lying in the spares box somewhere which could well be slated for this particular conversion one day. Anyway, onto the subject of this post. I went back to the PRRTHS 'Darkroom' and found another puzzle on: http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Broadway.html which shows a coloured scan of a splendid painting of Streamlined K4 3768 and a fine consist of Modernism stock in tow. The loco is brown, however..... a reddish brown but markedly different to the Tuscan Red the artist has used to paint the coaches. I had assumed this loco was turned out in DGLE. Authors Pennypacker and Staufer in their book 'The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4' do not mention this loco being 'red' as such, but quote a total of ten 'red' locos of which but three 2861, 5409 and 5436 were known numbers. Can anyone clear up this mystery? 'Red' or DGLE? And if 3768 did carry this livery, was it carried through the war into 1946/7 when it was running with the streamlined shroud partially removed? An interesting possibility from the modelling point of view. Regards, JHW P.S. Anyone mention a streamlined K4 body for the Miracle Castings project, yet? -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vincent Troia" Subject: [PRR] PRR Interchange with B&0 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:15:17 -0500 Where were the primary interchange points between the PRR and the B&O during the Transition Period? Were there any in Pennsylvania? What type of freight would have been interchanged between these competitors? Do these interchange points still exist between Conrail and CSX? Has this been reviewed in the Norfolk Southern merger? Thank you in advance, Vincent ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] the newest Keystone = Sporing 1999... Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:43:02 PST Andrew H responds: HUH? What's this all about? ______________________- >Andy H., I am well aware of your fine sense of humor ( ha ! ) but I had no >idea that you were also artistically gifted !!! Gorgeous !!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brown K4? Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:08:42 -0500 Gary writes: << The K4 you mention is the Streamlined Version which supposely had a color all its own. Some describe it as a Dark Bronze color. I have never stumbled on a colored photo, (which would be rare anyway), the year was 1936. My info on this is this K4 evetually got repainted into the standard colors as the rest of the PRR fleet. I have no info on when this occured. In model form, I have a Key Import which is painted in this Bronze Color. Is this shade correct? I don't know. It maybe a guess on Key Imports part. To me it is to light. Someone else may have particulars on this and dates. Gary >> I'm not a modeler and I am certainly not an expert on PRR color schemes. However, one of my favorite books as kid was "The Big Book of Real Locomotives". When Gary mentioned bronze, I pulled out this well-worn "reference". (Each pull out picture is three feet long--not that easy to to scan). There's a picture of a T-1 included and while the date is, of course, much later than 1936 (the book has a copyright date of 1951), the color is bronze. What did the artist, George Zaffo, have in mind since there is a GG-1 in the same scheme? This begs the question: were there other classes of "bronze" locomotives? It strikes me that the artist would have sketched from life or memory rather than create some fanciful color scheme. For everybody's look-see, I posted a relevant piece of the T-1 tender at http://www.twinney.com/gifs/t1tender.jpg (26k) It would be ironic if my cherished, falling-apart "Big Treasure Book" was accurate. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:33:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Brown K4? John and List, The K4 you mention is the Streamlined Version which supposely had a color all its own. Some describe it as a Dark Bronze color. I have never stumbled on a colored photo, (which would be rare anyway), the year was 1936. My info on this is this K4 evetually got repainted into the standard colors as the rest of the PRR fleet. I have no info on when this occured. In model form, I have a Key Import which is painted in this Bronze Color. Is this shade correct? I don't know. It maybe a guess on Key Imports part. To me it is to light. Someone else may have particulars on this and dates. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:52:09 EST Subject: [PRR] NEB&W FREIGHT CAR BOOKS Folks, I just received a flyer today from the New England Berkshire & Western guys that announces the reissue of their fabulous freight car guide to the early 50's transition period. Part A , 305 pages, is $29.95 abd part B, 346 pages is $34.95. They also have the update on cars "Guide III" at $35.95. If you want to know the prototypes of every HO freight car made from about 1950-1998, and who used it, here it is. Also includes rosters, painting info, trucks and history. Each model is descibed, both good and bad points, and what railraods used that car and when. gives per centage breakdwon of prototype car types within the national roaster of all US rr's. (eg, in 1953, 16% of US cars were gondolas; who had milk cars and how many and what color they were, etc). The data ends about 1954, but is excellant for the most popular era. Look it up at their website: http://www.rpi.edu/web/railroad Check it out. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:22:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks Tom: A few years ago Martin Lofton did an article on PRR trucks. I have it buried in my files someplace. I think it was in Mainline but not positive. This is the only publication of which I am aware the gives info on PRR freight trucks. A short explanation of the PRR class: first number is the number of axles. Letter is the size of the journal, F, T, P, C designate the type of service freight, tender, passenger, cabin. This is followed by the sequential number of the particular design. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:43:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Interchange with B&0 Vincent, Hi this is Gary from Beaver Falls. Wasn't there a connection between the PRR and B&O just east of the PRR station in Pittsburgh? I think it is where Panther Hollow comes out from uderneath the Oakland section. Also where the Capitol Limited from Amtrak comes up from Baltiomore to connect with Conrail(PRR). There are probably others but I do not know of anymore. Maybe West Pittsburgh too out in New Castle. Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:10:22 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West - The Panhandle around Dayton Had to make a quick trip to Dayton this week. I'm working on a "Panhandle around Dayton" slide show for the Lines West Fans Fest April 10 in Xenia, so I revisited some rail sites. While I was there, I saw the following: 1. The Clement-Hempstead Industrial Track has been relaid from its longtime flimsy jointed rail to a reballasted, welded rail structure as far as the north end of Delphi in Kettering (originally Delco Products' Plant 10). As suspected, the track has been removed from the powerhouse south. The unoccupied southern end of the former (huge) Delco Property has now been subdivided as commercial sites and a city park. In fact, there's a new road down part of the track alignment. 2. FWIW, the site of the old coal yard, northside of Patterson Road, is still occupied by its conveyors and other junk. I wonder when its open wooden coal trestle off the Clement Industrial was removed. 3. Downtown, "The Trees" (a favored photo stand between the Great Miami River Bridge and the station) is now a gravel truck lot, and the Dayton Union Station site (MP 16.0) is now 2 through tracks threading piles of broken concrete and old ties. BTW, the welded rail strings here contained Bethlehem Steelton rail, some of it back to at least 1960. 3. The DU elevation project runs east from the station (with 2 tracks, not 4), past blocks of what are fast becoming picturesque business architecture. Looks like 1920's auto agencies included "Egyptian" early art deco touches -- we used to think this was junky old buildings, but now it's a nice-looking preservation district. I don't remember railroad names or heralds on any of the DU street underpasses in the '60s. Certainly, no evidence of this remains today on the concretework. 4. At what used to be Wayne Avenue Junction (MP 15.4), where westbound PRR trains from Xenia entered the Dayton Union plant, all PRR-style signal bridges are gone and all the air-operated switch machines are gone. Of 3 tracks continuing east toward the EL/NYC/B&O East Dayton yard sites, the one on the south side was still jointed rail, which looked bizarre alongside all the welded rail in the area. Saw two southbound CSX trains (from the B&O Toledo line) work westward through the plant , opening and closing a series of hand throws as they went. 5. One PRR track out of the original 2 and 3 is still in to get east from Wayne Avenue Junction up the hill to Clement (MP 12.3) and thus to Delco. It runs across concrete elevation work with "Pennsylvania" cast into the concrete street underpasses until the ground level rises to it at Dutoit Street (MP 14.6), once a PRR interlocking. For you contemporary trainwatchers, total bag in about 3 hours was 3 CSX trains (2 all auto racks), one I&O, and a local railfan who pointed out the B&O freight house is now used as a Halloween haunted house. For you historians, the memories were a lot thicker than the physical remains... "The glory that was Greece, and the grandeur that was Rome" sounds about right for the ruins of Dayton's rail plant. Rick Tipton Who lived here when "railroad" was spelled PENNSYL... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: Boiler Conversion Kits - Weight Issue Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:47:03 -0500 Pat Lawless wrote in: >Subject: Boiler Conversion Kits - Weight issue >From: "Miracle Castings Inc." >Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:11:57 -0500 >"How heavy does a locomotive have to be?" I don't have a collection of >Bowser locos in front of me, so I don't have a benchmark to compare to. My >current read on this problem is that we will probably make the boiler >casting almost entirely hollow, with room for both the mechanism, and a cast >resin weight which will be filled with lead shot. This should add quite a >lot of weight, depending on the diameter of the boiler. Will it add as much >as a Bowser? I don't know yet. Hi Pat: I weighed several assembled locomotives and boilers today. Perhaps the following information will be useful for your project: WEIGHT OF ASSEMBLED LOCOMOTIVES Brass H9 10 3/4 oz Bowser H9 21 oz Pennline K4 28 oz Spectrum K4 13 oz Bowser L1 26 oz WEIGHT OF BOILERS ONLY Bowser E6 / H9 Boiler 15 oz Bowser K4 / I1 / L1 Boiler 19 oz New Bowser I1 Boiler 12 oz Owing to their weight, neither the brass nor spectrum locomotives will pull as well as the comparable Bowser. And of course, Pat had to mention Carl, weight and slim in the same Email. >I appreciate your opinion Carl. Although I'd prefer it more if you had more >years of experience in HO. 50 is a little slim for my liking. ;-) Pat, you are correct, I was a little slim 50 years ago. That said, let's get back to the weighty issue. Yes Bowser does make PRR locomotives kit. The problem is their boilers leave much to be desired. The firebox on the E / H boiler is to large and too square. Until recently the I boiler was too slim (there it is again). Finally, although the prototype L and K boilers were similar, they were not the same. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:04:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Interchange with B&0 In a message dated 2/27/99 3:11:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: > Hi this is Gary from Beaver Falls. Wasn't there a connection > between the PRR and B&O just east of the PRR station in Pittsburgh? I > think it is where Panther Hollow comes out from uderneath the Oakland > section. Also where the Capitol Limited from Amtrak comes up from > Baltiomore to connect with Conrail(PRR). There are probably others but I > do not know of anymore. Maybe West Pittsburgh too out in New Castle. > This is not a PRR - B&O interchange. The interchange was installed for Amtrak to facilitate passenger train movement. It is strictly a CSX - CR interchange. It is only used for the Capitol Limited at the present time. For a short time freight was exchanged through this interchange but not recently. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Interchange with B&0 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:00:28 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Vincent Troia Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 1:15 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Interchange with B&0 Vincent, You asked about where the primary interchange points between the PRR and the B&O were during the Transition Period? Were there any in Pennsylvania? ----------------------------------------------- If you have access to The Official Railway Equipment Registers (ORER) each railroad lists where (by town) it interchanges with other railroads. For example in 1950 the PRR-B&O interchanges in PA included: Bessemer, Butler (via B&LE),Curwensville, Everson, Falls Creek, Foxburg, Gratzburg, Hyndman, Johnsonburg (via Erie), Johnstown, Josephine, Kane, Millvale, New Castle, Philadelphia (Gray's Ferry), Pittsburgh (Allegheny and Herrs Island), Uniontown, Vintondale, Washington (via Tylerdale Connecting Ry), and Watt (Watts Transfer). Note: its possible I may have missed one. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the transition period? What type of freight would have been interchanged between these competitors? ------------------------------------------------- This depends on location in each system, and would be very site specific. Many times it would be empty cars of that road. Do these interchange points still exist between Conrail and CSX? ------------------------------------------------ I would imagine a lot still exist. Those that would no longer still exist would be where PC or CR abandoned PRR lines and/or where CSX (or predecessors) had abandoned B&O lines. Has this been reviewed in the Norfolk Southern merger? ------------------------------------------------ I can't answer this. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:59:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Interchange with B&0 In a message dated 2/27/99 2:03:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, troiaeye@geocities.com writes: > Where were the primary interchange points between the PRR and the B&O during > the Transition Period? Were there any in Pennsylvania? Interchange points are listed in the ORER, I will list those in Pennsylvania only. There were 98 interchange points between the PRR and B&O Pennsylvania interchange points April 1952 Bessemer Butler Curwensville Falls Creek Foxburg Gratztown Hyndman Indiana * Johnsonburg (via Erie RR) Johnstown Josephine Kane Millvale New Castle Philadelphia (25th and Wolf St.) * Philadelphia (Delaware & Commercial) * Philadelphia (Gray's Landing) Pittsburgh (Allegheny) Pittsburgh (Herr's Island) Uniontown Vintondale Washington (via Tylerdale Connecting Ry) Watts (Watts Transfer) * track connection but not used as a regular interchange point. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:25:43 +0000 Subject: [PRR] PRR Interchange with B&0 Gary wrote: > Hi this is Gary from Beaver Falls. Wasn't there a connection >between the PRR and B&O just east of the PRR station in Pittsburgh? I >think it is where Panther Hollow comes out from uderneath the Oakland >section. That is one interchange - they used to back the train out of station and go to the B&O tracks via a switch and then go toward Etna and up along Rt. 8 towards New Castle. > There are probably others but I >do not know of anymore. Maybe West Pittsburgh too out in New Castle. There also is a connection along Rt. 28 at Etna for interchange. There used to be a big PRR yard there, and also B&O had activity, a switcher was kept there. The Pgh. Railways used to get their PCC cars delivered by flat car from St. Louis to Etna. Don't think they traveled on the B&O though. The connection is still in which connects the higher B&O (CSX) tracks to the lower PRR (CR) tracks. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis Schaller" Subject: [PRR] Passenger Cars Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:35:34 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0C3B_01BE62A1.7D5483A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a bunch of N-Scale Model Power corrugated passenger cars, I was = =3D wondering if Pennsy ever pained any of these all Tuscan with black =3D roofs? Or was it just the congressional that was silver with a tuscan = =3D band? Lewis ------=_NextPart_000_0C3B_01BE62A1.7D5483A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a bunch of N-Scale Model Power corrugated passenger cars, I = was=20 =3D
wondering if Pennsy ever pained any of these all Tuscan with = black=20 =3D
roofs? Or was it just the congressional that was silver with a = tuscan=20 =3D
band?

Lewis
------=_NextPart_000_0C3B_01BE62A1.7D5483A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Interchange with B&0 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:28:17 -0500 >Where were the primary interchange points between the PRR and the B&O during >the Transition Period? Were there any in Pennsylvania? Two that would have seen use on B&O's Wheeling & Pittsburgh line (Benwood WV to Glenwood Yard) were at Snowden, PA with the PRR's Peters Creek Branch (originally St. Clair Terminal RR) and at Washington, PA over the Tylerdale Connecting RR, which was jointly owned by B&O and PRR, and connected with PRR's Chartiers Branch. > What type of >freight would have been interchanged between these competitors? Coal. Coal. Maybe a little coal. That's pretty much what both the PRR branches carried. At least, that's about all they would have interchanged. >Do these >interchange points still exist between Conrail and CSX? Has this been >reviewed in the Norfolk Southern merger? > Sadly, no. The coal's all gone. Both Conrail and CSX discontinued service on the Tylerdale Connecting on April 30, 1982. Conrail sold the remnants of the Chartiers Branch to RailTex in 1997, and it now operates as the Pittsburgh Industrial RR. It ends about a mile and a half north of the former B&O interchange. CSX operates into Washington, but abandoned the W&P line about a mile east of the PRR interchange, and nothing remains west of that point. PRR abandoned the Peters Creek Branch in the late 50's or early 60's, but the section from the Snowden interchange with the B&O to Library, PA was operated by the Montour RR until shortly before the closure of the Montour #10 Mine in 1978. Hope this helps. Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:46:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Sodus tug (was Greek tug Epta) In a message dated 2/26/99 10:56:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << The PRR apparently had a tug stationed at Sodus Point, NY on Lake Ontario for many years. Do you have any information on that tug? >> There's a picture of the Cornelia at Sodus Point harbor in The Story of the Northern Central Railway, by Robert L. Gunnarsson. Was originally owned by the NC. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis Schaller" Subject: [PRR] Prices? Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:34:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0C31_01BE62A1.5F689A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a friend that has the following N-scale equipment, and wants to = know if it is worth anything, I figured someone in here would know. All = of it is about 15-20 years old and almost new. =20 =20 Thanks Atlas All in plastic boxes 2185 0-4-0 Steam Loco 2169 0-6-0 Tank Loco 3102 Union Pacific N Auto Transporter 2362 40' w.box D&R.G.W. 2201 Flor E.Coast BoxCar 2274 Transfer Caboose 2253 Santa Fe Cattle Car 2251 Katy Cattle Car ahm all in plastic cases=20 4453 E Boston & Main 4453K great Northern Postage Stamp by Aurora all in plastic boxes 4870/410 Mobil Jumbo Tanker 4869 40' Covered Hopper Great Northern 4844 Piggy Back Car 2 Bachman Loco's =20 Pennsylvania=20 Reading None of these have boxes Steam Loco with Coal Car Loco is 5" long Coal is 4" long,, Bachman Union Pacific AHM Coal Car Roberval Saquenay AHM Hopper Rexall Chemical AHM Oil Tanker Gulf oil AHM Chemical Tanker General American Bachman Caboose Bachman Gravel Car Alaska RR Trix Holly Sugar Hopper? ------=_NextPart_000_0C31_01BE62A1.5F689A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a friend that has the = following N-scale=20 equipment, and wants to know if it is worth anything, I figured someone = in here=20 would know.  All of it is about 15-20 years old and almost = new. =20
 
Thanks

Atlas   All in plastic = boxes
2185=20 0-4-0 Steam Loco
2169 0-6-0 Tank Loco
3102 Union Pacific N Auto=20 Transporter
2362 40' w.box D&R.G.W.
2201 Flor E.Coast = BoxCar
2274=20 Transfer Caboose
2253 Santa Fe Cattle Car
2251 Katy Cattle=20 Car
ahm  all in plastic cases
4453 E Boston & = Main
4453K=20 great Northern
Postage Stamp by Aurora  all in plastic = boxes
4870/410=20 Mobil Jumbo Tanker
4869 40' Covered Hopper Great Northern
4844 = Piggy Back=20 Car

2 Bachman Loco's   
Pennsylvania =
Reading
 
None of these have boxes
Steam Loco with Coal Car Loco is = 5" long=20 Coal is 4" long,, Bachman Union
Pacific
AHM Coal Car  = Roberval=20 Saquenay
AHM Hopper Rexall Chemical
AHM Oil Tanker Gulf oil
AHM = Chemical Tanker  General American
Bachman Caboose
Bachman = Gravel Car=20 Alaska RR
Trix Holly Sugar = Hopper?
------=_NextPart_000_0C31_01BE62A1.5F689A20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:50:37 EST Subject: [PRR] P2K Pennsy Engines Folks, I was over at a bike/hobby shop in suburban St. Paul today, and noticed that they have some Pennsy P2K on sale. Jerry was kind enough to let me mention it here. I have no interest in selling these units, but the hobby shop fella, Keith Nelson, is a nice guy to deal with and Pennsy stuff doesn't move too well in Minnesota. Anyway, what he has is: -E7A in tuscan @ $49.95 -PA in tuscan @ $65 (has two) -PB in tuscan @ $29.95 (has two)-dummy. These are all new units in the five stripe scheme. He may have some more Pennsy, but I didn't dig around too much. If you're interested, he said to give him an email at his real world job during the week at Keith.Nelson@state.MN.US He's a hobby retailer, but I don't think out of state business is subject to sales tax and he seems very accomodating. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: Re: [PRR] the newest Keystone = Spring 1999... Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:22:14 -0500 ***Andy- Maybe I am confused, or a similar name exists.... but did you ever create a lovely painting named "Glory Days"......just some old junky PRR diesel and steam stuff high-balling on the four track main near Horseshoe Curve...? If so, you have my artistic admiration forever !!!! Bill**** >Andrew H responds: > >HUH? What's this all about? >______________________- >>Andy H., I am well aware of your fine sense of humor ( ha ! ) but I had >no >>idea that you were also artistically gifted !!! Gorgeous !!! > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:27:53 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks Greetings, I can't remember what the PRR classification for the N5 single spring truck was, but I read somewhere it was made by Osgood Bradley--I think the same O. G. that made trolleys. Chuck Friedlein FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/27/99 12:29:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > > << Is there a resource there describing and listing Pennsy trucks, or has > anybody put together a list of accurate Pennsy trucks. If three isn't, I > guess > I'll have to start researching one. > The answer that I need right know is what was the classification of the > single spring cast truck that Bowser makes for its N5 and N5C kits? >> > > I know various keystones I have have covered trucks and I seem to remember an > article or two on trucks a few years back when the Pennsy Hopper series rain > in MODEL RAILROADING. I know the articles in Model Railroading were based on > HO truck availability. I'll look through my Keystones to try to find the info > but it could take me awhile. Somebody on the list pprobably knows this off the > top of their head. > Brian C > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:21:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Brown K4? In a message dated 2/27/99 1:03:57 PM Central Standard Time, jhwright@jhwright.demon.co.uk writes: << Can anyone clear up this mystery? 'Red' or DGLE? And if 3768 did carry this livery, was it carried through the war into 1946/7 when it was running with the streamlined shroud partially removed? >> NEITHER ONE. My understandng is that it was a shade of gunmetal gray, "with a decided bronze cast " (according to the Keystone). If you think that doesn't make sense, consider that that color would be something a top industrial designer like Raymond Loewy might consider about 1936. Other descriptions of it in biographies of Loewy and in the trade press seem to confirm the gunmetal color. Believe it or not some decorated HO and O brass versions of the loco several years ago actually might have gotten it right. I note the new brass S-1 is in a similar shade. In film of the New York world's fair of the S1 in the American Railroads livery it appears to be that shade, but it is tough to rely on old color film. Don't know if Pennsy kept the color when it put theS1 into operation. You raise an interesting question as to whether 3768 stayed the same shade from 1936 to 1946. On a personal note Raymond Loewy became a boyhood hero of mine after watching a TV special on him in the early 50's and he indirectly influenced my career choice (I originally enrolled in the IIT School of Design before switching to ME). Hence my interest in the subject. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brown K4? Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 03:24:58 -0500 *****Hi, Bob- I just found another Loewy field of creativity....Dorsett Boats, made in the late 1950's.....smaller ( 20 feet or so ) recreational boats, made to such quality that R L agreed to assist in their swept designing !!!! ..while he was still doing Studebaker, etc....what an amazing person !!!! Bill******* --- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:42:52 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Brown K4? Hi All, Re: The "Brown" K4 discussion: > NEITHER ONE. My understandng is that it was a shade of gunmetal gray, "with > a decided bronze cast" (according to the Keystone). Donald J. Bush, in his book "The Streamlined Decade" agrees with this: "A winged Pennsy keystone in silver and red adorned the nose; silver and gold lettering, numerals and stripes enhanced the dark bronze color of the shroud." A print of the picture at the PRRT&HS site was recently auctioned off at ebay. I believe the artist was M. Kotowski? > I note the new brass S-1 is in a similar shade. In film of the New York > world's fair of the S1 in the American Railroads livery it appears to be that > shade, but it is tough to rely on old color film. > Don't know if Pennsy kept the color when it put the S1 into operation. Arrrrgh!! I hope not! I don't even want to think about repainting my DGLE 6100! Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:15:47 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy freight trucks The article to which Rich is referring by Martin Lofton was in the June, 1993 issue of Model Railroading magazine. Frank Brua SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Tom: > > A few years ago Martin Lofton did an article on PRR trucks. I have it buried > in my files someplace. I think it was in Mainline but not positive. This is > the only publication of which I am aware the gives info on PRR freight trucks. > > A short explanation of the PRR class: first number is the number of axles. > Letter is the size of the journal, F, T, P, C designate the type of service > freight, tender, passenger, cabin. This is followed by the sequential number > of the particular design. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:28:55 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: [PRR] Gunmetal & S1 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/27/99 1:03:57 PM Central Standard Time, > jhwright@jhwright.demon.co.uk writes: > > << Can anyone clear up this mystery? 'Red' or DGLE? > And if 3768 did carry this livery, was it carried through the war into > 1946/7 when it was running with the streamlined shroud partially > removed? >> > > NEITHER ONE. My understandng is that it was a shade of gunmetal gray, "with > a decided bronze cast " (according to the Keystone). If you think that > doesn't make sense, consider that that color would be something a top > industrial designer like Raymond Loewy might consider about 1936. Other > descriptions of it in biographies of Loewy and in the trade press seem to > confirm the gunmetal color.... In film of the New York > world's fair of the S1 in the American Railroads livery it appears to be that > shade, but it is tough to rely on old color film. Don't know if Pennsy kept > the color when it put the S1 into operation. > You raise an interesting question as to whether 3768 stayed the same shade > from 1936 to 1946. Greetings to all, *Pennsy Power* (Al Staufer) mentions non-streamlined K-4's in tuscan red, in the early 1930's (p. 178). No numbers are given. Calendar paintings of the S-1 by Grif Teller in 1939, 1940, and 1941 show it as black (yeah, I know, Brunswick Green, DGLE). The World's Fair was over by the end of 1940 (I think), so the last painting may show in-service colors. However, I feel these calendar paintings are unreliable as to exact hue. A 1936 calender painting by Grif Teller shows the streamlined K-4 next to a regular one (5344), and both are black tinged with rust. One would say the streamlined K-4 looks bronze if it were not next to a presumably DGLE K-4, which seems to be bronze, too. The ground is bronze and so is the concrete coal pocket behimd them! The British refer to the alloy of brass and copper as gun metal. Americans call this alloy bronze. Americans use gun metal to refer to metallic gray. Raymond Loewy may have used the British terminology, thus bronze is "gunmetal". -- Robert Livingston ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:30:14 Subject: Re: [PRR] Last Run Hi Hank, I'm very sorry to hear the sad news about your dad... - Claus > Date sent: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:09:13 -0500 (EST) > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > From: bubbles@VISI.NET > Subject: [PRR] Last Run > > Good evening all... > > I have just received word tonight that my dad passed away about > 9 PM from a heart attack. I don't know if i'll be on the next > few days or not. He was conductor first for PC..then Conrail > and Amtrak. (1969-1999) He was to retire in about another year > or so. I guess posting this is helping me deal with the > greif. I don't even know if this is the right medium for a > post like this. So many times we look at and only pay attention to > the trains we love and sometimes forget the folks who > run them, such is this hobby. For me its always been a bit more > personal because he worked on them. And for that i am thankful. > > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products > and Eastern Car Works on special during February. > See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:08:57 EST Subject: [PRR] Gunmetal & S1 In a message dated 2/28/99 10:40:36 AM Central Standard Time, rlivingston01@snet.net writes: << The British refer to the alloy of brass and copper as gun metal. Americans call this alloy bronze. Americans use gun metal to refer to metallic gray. Raymond Loewy may have used the British terminology, thus bronze is "gunmetal". >> Good, informative point. Now I have my work cut out for me to research Loewy more (a pleasure when I get the time). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:39:20 -0500 From: Livingston Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass. Tuscan '39-'45 Thanks, Rich, for the info on PRR Tuscan varieties. It seems the actual B-60 sample I have matches Dark Tuscan better than Light Tuscan. This suggests the window band color from the Fleet of Modernism era became the standard Tuscan in the 1950's and '60's when the B-60 was presumably last repainted. Would this be the standard Tuscan for garden-variety passenger equipment in the 1930's-'40's? SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > In his book Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering Chuck Blardone and Peter Tulip include color chip samples. The following "Tuscan" colors are shown: > > PRR Maroon #47-2249 and Pullman Dark Tuscan #70-19 same color (window band) > > PRR Tuscan red #47-2424 and Pullman Lt. Tuscan #70-18 same color (body) > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRRSignals" Subject: [PRR] LinesWestFest Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:09:49 -0500 >Tom V. > ***Hi, Tom- I am sorry, I deleted the LinesWestFest memo and changes, and now I am talking it up to my OH IL WI MI and IND pals, and need the info to forward to them, please ??? Wanna make sure all of our loose and ignored western end friends can get together with their PRR brothers so they feel connected to all the rest, also !!! SUCH A GREAT IDEA !!!! Now I am sorrier than ever that I will miss this, as many friends of mine will be there, including you, of course !!!! Thanks, bill****** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:15:33 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers From: "Doug and Marianne" I made a GloorCraft N6 kit and it is a good starting point for a good model. The only alternative is a brass model, I believe by NJ. I have seen the brass model in Brooklyn Locomotive Works auction recently. The GloorCraft kit takes a fair amount of careful work, but can be worth the effort. Archbar trucks are available from Micro Trains. Good luck. ---------- >From: LINESWEST@aol.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers >Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999, 8:29 PM > >I'm currently researching the N6 class of cabin cars. I'd like to hear from >someone who's made the N scale GloorCraft N6B kit or who can tell me if there >are any alternatives to it if you want to model N6 class in N. Scale. Does >GloorCraft sell and N Scale detail parts like they do in HO. Are Arch bar >trucks available? What about the single spring cast trucks the class of which >forget. > >Tom V. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products >and Eastern Car Works on special during February. >See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:44:50 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] F/S - Brass Baldwin Passenger Sharks If anyone is interested, a friend of mine has a set of HO brass Baldwin BP20s for sale. He's keen to see them go to a good home. Alco/KMT A and B set, unpainted. Price 180 GBP for the two. A photo of these units (ptd) appears in the 'Brown' book ... page 154 My friend does not have E-mail but is happy to have anyone who's interested write to him. He is: Mr. D Milby, 10 Sun Street, Ulverston, Cumbria, LA12 7BX, England. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:43:25 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale Cabin car modelers Hello Tom and all, I'm into N-scale myself but I didn't know there was a PRR N6 caboose out there. I've been waiting for Dick Billing's kit from Fine-N-scale. Do you have the kit? Can you still get it? I don't see it in the Walthers catalogue.... Thanks, Roger "Need a fleet of PRR cabooses.." Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:34:26 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR X-23 I friend of mine has a Overland X-23 the's trying to sell me. My question is how many of these were still around in regular service in 1957? Thanks Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:58:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass. Tuscan '39-'45 The approved color for Passenger cars never darkened. However, as a head end car the B60 may have been painted with the darker freight car color of the post 1952 era. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (doloris mittner) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:10:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Paint Colors? PRR Guys, Well Bill, here goes another question out to this list on my favorite subject, what color was this and what color was that. First question. What color did the Pennsy paint the old round number plates that the early K4's had applied to their boiler fronts? Were they painted with a DGLE or T-Red. Second question is what is a good shade of green? and from what model paint company should I use to paint the interiors of PRR streamlined Passenger equipment? I am pretty new to this list so you guys may have covered these questions before. Any thoughts on this out there? Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:00:27 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Steel mill list is created! From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, Just a note to let you know that the steel mill list has been created. This is a list about the prototype and modeling of steel mills and their related commodities. I am hoping to see every from the slightly interested to the obsessed steel mill fan on this list, and those that work in these areas for a living--boy can't we learn a thing or two from you all. We are here to discuss anything about steel mils from the beginnings to the present and beyond. To subscribe go to: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/steelmills Hope to see all interested parties there and until then keep the steel red hot! Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Union Station Products and Eastern Car Works on special during February. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!