Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:35:43 -0500
From: "J. R. N. Witmer" <jwitmer@ais.net>
Subject: [PRR] Track pans

Try to get a copy of FRM <italic>Milepost</italic> Volume 11, number 1,
February 1993. It contains an article by James Alexander, Jr. on the
Wilmore track pans. It contains a lot of information about track pans
in general, including some pretty good pictures.


Captain Jack




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Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 08:52:57 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Pans & Scooping Water

Karl Kantola told me that hoboes riding NY Central trains in winter were often
drenched and frozen solid while hanging onto the rear of tenders.  If the lead end
of the car behind had no door, or a locked door, they were trapped, and too cold
to manage climbing up over the tender to the cab.  He also mentioned redesigning
the scoops and venting for higher speeds - one problem with earlier designs was
that side spray sometimes shattered the glass windows of passing trains.

Steve Bartlett
Huber25@aol.com wrote:

> He related as how hobos would be allowed to sleep on the tender decks ......
> That's not even mentioning the sometimes drenching they
> would get.........

> Roger
>





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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 10:13:46 CST
Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops, water troughs

Hi, all,

>Cisterns or water tanks for mainline trains that
>stopped -- primarily freight trains -- were at Perdix/Cove and Longfellow
>(perhaps elsewhere, too, but those two are for sure).

A minor addition to the above -- the coaling wharf at Denholm had 
standpipes for all tracks served, with twin water tanks to supply them.

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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From: "Andrew Harmantas" <frisco484@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Pans & Scooping Water
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 07:22:26 PST

Then there was another scoop story about the fireboy that didn't actuate 
the lift mechanism on the scoop in time, and the scoop tore up several 
hundred yards of track before they could stop.  That must've been quite 
a ride.

Andrew Harmantas, modeling RR's that scooped, all except the NYC, that 
is.



______________________________________________________
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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:18:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA BOX CARS

Barry and All,
   Hold back, the Tichy car while beautifully detailed it si no the Pennsy
rebuild you are looking for.  It is a beautiful reproduction of the P McKY
rebuilt cars.  The NYC received some cars to as I recall.  There is a very
well done article in Mainline Modeler of the entire program. Just because
Tichy says it's so, don't make it so, they are no different from Red Caboose,
I do not begrudge either of the practice.  Pennsy's rebuilt cars were taller
and wider than the NYC design but of course they happened at two different
times also.  I have an article forthcoming on the X-26 rebuilds and they are
not all that difficult to reproduce in HO Scale.  My article will also be the
basis for the Santa Fe Rebuilt cars and I will follow up with an article of
the Santa Fe cars.  They seemed to show up a lot system wide but particularly
apparent on the Elmira Branch (see Carroso's book). 

Greg Martin

In a message BPX29@aol.com writes:

<< Here's a question for the freight car fan: is Tichy's rebuilt USRA box car
 (Pennsy class X26 in the original form) usable as a Pennsy car? >>

Snip

<>

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:44:49 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Built dynamic brakes?

In a message dated 11/30/98 19:33:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com
writes:

<< Which if any of  Pennsy passenger units had dynamic brakes? I never thought
 about it before now but I dont believe any of the E-units did, so it raises
 the question about passenger units in general.
  >>
PA's were retro fitted with dynamics when transferred to freight service.  The
same may have been done to the Erie builts which were quickly moved to freight
service.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:42:45 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA BOX CARS

The Tichy rebuilt USRA maybe a PRR X26C these were the first rebuild of the
X26 (USRA) cars.  I have not looked at the Tichy rebuild in some time and do
not recall off hand if it is an exact match for the X26C.

Rich Orr

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:17:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Toledo Divison and coaling towers

In a message dated 11/30/98 8:38:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jer@smellycat.com writes:

> Yes, the coaling tower north of I-80 is a former PRR tower. Conrail's
>  Lordstown Secondary (former E&A Branch) runs past it. To the east of
>  the tower were the ROW's of the B&O (origninal P&W main) and Erie.
>  Somewhere in there the Lake Erie & Eastern connected with the PRR, but
>  I don't know if it was north or south of the tower. On the far side of
>  the river is the current B&O main. I'm not sure if the Youngstown &
>  Northern got up this far or not. There have been a couple of good shots
>  of that coaling tower in Railpace that I can recall, one with the Conrail
>  OCS train(!) passing it, and another with an Ohio Central train.
>  
I could be in the wrong pew, but this sounds like a tower I shot at Girard
Yard outside Youngstown.  I wish I had visited before it was all rust-belted;
must have been magnificent.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West 

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Subject: Re: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 09:22:07 -0500

'thought of more:

P5, O1 plans in MR in the 50s

and of course MR published plans for a "T5" in their first issue ;-)

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 09:19:32 -0500

Hank,
What a wonderful idea!  Your list is a keeper.  I certainly hope and expect
that others will augment it.

Off the top of my head (I'm in my office and not near my library at home) I
know MR published plans for COURAGEOUS (parlor-loung-restaurant car) some time
in the 60s, and for an H25, a B60 and a BM70x some time in the 50s. The "x" is
because I don't remember which subclass it was. The two head end cars were
published together in the same issue.  They were not identified other than "PRR
Head End Cars". If I remember, I will look it up when I get home. (Unless
someone beats me to the punch and fills in the blanks today).  

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:26:57 -0600
Subject: Re: [PRR] ETT's

Hi Ron,
     That seems a little high for an employee TT.  I have purchased them in
the $8-15 range.  Maybe I have found dealers that dont know the value of
the timetables but it seems a little on the high side.

Randy




Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org> on 12/01/98 03:59:18 PM

To:   PRR-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
cc:    (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon)
Subject:  [PRR] ETT's




Hi All,

Have the oppurtunity to purchase a Pittsburgh Division ETT for $30. Been
having a devil of a time finding one for my era/locale and this is the
first one in my '39-'59 span that I've seen . Is $30 dollars about what
these usually go for?

Thanks again,

Ron.


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Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:49:13 -0800
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs

Hi All,

Thanks to Dan, Derrick and Jerry, for supplying track pan locations for
the Pittsburgh Division. Two locations: one near Latrobe (too far west
for my modeling) and one at Wilmore (between Lilly and South Fork,
bingo!). Looks like I'll have to model them now. So. Any pic references,
anyone?
Any idea what type of support facilities (water tanks, heating plant,
etc...) were at Wilmore? Wilmore doesn't even appear on most of my maps.
Any other PRR facilities at this location?

Thanks in advance,

Ron.



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Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:36:41 -0800
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Division Stations?

Hi All,

I'm looking for references to articles and photos covering the stations
and interlockings between Altoona and West Johnstown. Especially
interested in the smaller locales not frequently mentioned: Lilly,
Portage, Summerhill, Wilmore, South Fork, Mineral Point?, Etc...

I have been to Marc's site repeatedly and am devouring his interlocking
diagrams voraciously.

Thanks in advance,

Ron.


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Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:28:19 -0800
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: [PRR] Wilmore, Pa. Track Pans

Hi Capt. Jack, All,

What a list!; the answer to my request for info was posted before my
request even made it to the list:

"FRM Milepost Volume 11, number 1, February 1993. It contains an article
by James Alexander, Jr. on the Wilmore track pans."

I'm not familiar with this mag. What is "FRM Milepost" and where can I
get a copy of this issue?

It was Dan, I believe, that described the model track pans with the
"blue" water. I'd agree that blue would probably be too idyllic. Any
suggestions for a color that would look realistic? Probably kind of dark
with a shiny top surface? In N-Scale I think I'll pass on modeling the
overspray.

Here's a wild thought: How about a cylinder of compressed water that
sprays out through vents on the top of the tender when actuated by
devices at the beginning and end of the pans? Lionel would be proud!
Would, no doubt, find out why track pans didn't (I think) exist in 3rd
rail territory! 8)

Thanks and later,

Ron.



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Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:59:18 -0800
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: [PRR] ETT's

Hi All,

Have the oppurtunity to purchase a Pittsburgh Division ETT for $30. Been
having a devil of a time finding one for my era/locale and this is the
first one in my '39-'59 span that I've seen . Is $30 dollars about what
these usually go for?

Thanks again,

Ron.


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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:24:20 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wheatland Coaling Tower

In a message dated 98-11-30 23:14:27 EST, you write:

> The complex houses Yourga Trucking and Bi-State Storage. A long curved
>  spur goes into the complex off a switch just south of the Ohio Street
>  crossing (probably not original track--Al, can you confirm?) 

Its a new track, just put in within the last year or so.

Rick

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Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:24:37 -0600
From: Andy Cich <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list

You can add

M-70 Postal Car page 81 1-78 MR

Thanks for a very helpful list.  I have to find some backissues now.


Andy C.

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Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 14:53:29 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/1/98 4:49 PM, Ron Dugas (rond@efn.org) wrote:

>Thanks to Dan, Derrick and Jerry, for supplying track pan locations for
>the Pittsburgh Division. Two locations: one near Latrobe (too far west
>for my modeling) and one at Wilmore (between Lilly and South Fork,
>bingo!). Looks like I'll have to model them now. So. Any pic references,
>anyone?
>Any idea what type of support facilities (water tanks, heating plant,
>etc...) were at Wilmore? Wilmore doesn't even appear on most of my maps.
>Any other PRR facilities at this location?

Definitely one or more cisterns nearby. Some photos in Triumph I.

As for ideas for modeling the area, South Fork offers a junction and also 
a flyover. Some interesting possibilities. Again, see Triumph I. Includes 
photos and track charts.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilmore, Pa. Track Pans
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 14:27:05 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/2/98 1:28 AM, Ron Dugas (rond@efn.org) wrote:

>I'm not familiar with this mag. What is "FRM Milepost" and where can I
>get a copy of this issue?

The "Milepost" is the quarterly newsletter (well done, I might add) of 
the Friends of the Railroad Museum (FRM) of the Railroad Museum of 
Pennsylvania in Strasburg, Pa.

With an annual contribution of only $25, you'll get the "Milepost" plus 
free admission for yourself, your spouse, your children, and your 
children's grandparents any time you visit the museum. The "Milepost" 
alone is probably worth the fee!

As for back issues, contact the museum. They might be able to fix you up.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 16:07:01 CST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs

Hi, all,

>...and one at Wilmore (between Lilly and South Fork,
>bingo!). Looks like I'll have to model them now. So. Any pic references,
>anyone?
>Any idea what type of support facilities (water tanks, heating plant,
>etc...) were at Wilmore? Wilmore doesn't even appear on most of my maps.
>Any other PRR facilities at this location?

In spite of all the warts, etc. in TRIUMPH I, it does have good photos, 
including a number of track-pans.  The PRR appeared to have a standard design 
for a power plant that they used at track pans.  I kitbashed one for my Denholm 
coaling wharf model using the Walthers Vulcan foundry.  Check out photos of
this standard power plant in TRIUMPH I - it was used, for example, at the east 
portals of the tunnels at Gallitzen for powering the exhaust fans.  I may have 
some photos of this building on my layout posted on the web soon - I'll mention
it if this happens.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Ron.
>
>
>
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Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:59:20 -0600
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh ETT correction.

Hi Ron,
     For an early 40's ETT $30.00 isnt really a bad price.  I guess it
depends on how much you want the TT.  I have paid extra money for some PRR
memorbilia but it was something that I wanted so I payed the extra money to
get it.  I know I have one Pittsburgh ETT from 1960 but could not say if I
had another one since I am at work as I write this.

Randy Williamson




Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org> on 12/01/98 01:35:00 PM

To:   prr-talk@dsop.com
cc:    (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon)
Subject:  [PRR] Pittsburgh ETT correction.




Hi All,

Was reminded that I didn't give the date of the ETT: Early 40's, seller
wasn't specific about year. Probably in pretty good condition as seller
usually discounts ones that are distressed and sells them "as is".

So far respondents feel $30 is kinda high, but I've not seen any others.
Does anyone have any for this are/locale that they would part with?

Thanks again,

Ron.


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Subject: Re: [PRR] ETT's
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 14:41:52 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/1/98 1:26 PM, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com 
(Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com) wrote:

>     That seems a little high for an employee TT.  I have purchased them in
>the $8-15 range.  Maybe I have found dealers that dont know the value of
>the timetables but it seems a little on the high side.

I agree with the above stated range. However, certain divisions and 
certain years are very hard to come by.

I'd pay $25 for a Sept. 26, 1954 Philadelphia Division ETT.

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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:35:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh ETT correction.

Hi All,

Was reminded that I didn't give the date of the ETT: Early 40's, seller
wasn't specific about year. Probably in pretty good condition as seller
usually discounts ones that are distressed and sells them "as is".

So far respondents feel $30 is kinda high, but I've not seen any others.
Does anyone have any for this are/locale that they would part with?

Thanks again,

Ron.


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 15:12:23 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/1/98 5:07 PM, George Pierson (George.Pierson@trnty.edu) wrote:

>In spite of all the warts, etc. in TRIUMPH I, it does have good photos, 
>including a number of track-pans.  The PRR appeared to have a standard 
>design 
>for a power plant that they used at track pans.  I kitbashed one for my 
>Denholm 
>coaling wharf model using the Walthers Vulcan foundry.  Check out photos of
>this standard power plant in TRIUMPH I - it was used, for example, at the 
>east 
>portals of the tunnels at Gallitzen for powering the exhaust fans.  I may 
>have 
>some photos of this building on my layout posted on the web soon - I'll 
>mention
>it if this happens.

That's George's very polite way of saying "C'mon Jerry, scan the damn 
photos I sent you way back when and post 'em!"

With apologies to both George and Hank Mummert, your layout photos will 
be posted real soon. I have yet to finish one last issue of The Pennsy 
that I borrowed from John Keel that has taken longer than anticipated 
(they are oversized). I will be finishing it tomorrow night and then on 
to the layout scans...and Hank's TrucTrain trailer photos.

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From: "Bill Nixon" <bnixon+@pitt.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:31:57 EST5EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs

Ron wrote:
>Any idea what type of support facilities (water tanks, heating plant,
>etc...) were at Wilmore? Wilmore doesn't even appear on most of my maps.
>Any other PRR facilities at this location?

I met someone recently who said his grandfather used to haul coal for 
the heaters so they wouldn't freeze in the winter.

There also was a story somewhere I read about a load of potatoes 
getting put in one of the pans and the scoop picked up potatoes and 
caused somekind of a problem.
Bill


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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:48:41 EST
Subject: [PRR] URSA Box

So i was wrong about the X26 car from a tichy kit, but I swear I can remember
a Mailine Modeler article obout modeling one a year or so ago. I'm only 25 and
my memory shouldn't be going this quick. Does anyone remeber the article I'm
talking about? I haven't had time to look.
Brian C

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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:17:14 EST
Subject: [PRR] LinesWest Fans Fest update,  April 11 CL&N fantrip set

Good morning,

	I just got off the phone with Tom McOwen, owner of the Turtle Creek Valley
Ry. He's agreed to schedule an extended version of his 3 p.m. run over the
CL&N on April 11 for attendees of the LinesWest Fans Fest at the regular fare
of $10.
	If we can guarantee a larger group than I am willing to commit to (Read this
as any group greater than 1), he is willing to do more such as a run down past
the remnants of Underfill yard and the Pendleton Engine facility on the Oasis
line. If there is strong enough response the original proposal that people are
willing to pay in advance, this is a possibility.

	The dates of April 10 for the meet in Xenia and April 11 for the fan trip out
of Mason are still tentative pending approval by the Greene County (Ohio)
Historical Society Board at its next scheduled meeting Dec. 7

	The Lines West Fans Fest is the first meet held exclusively for the
discussion, study and celebration of the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines West of
Pittsburgh and Erie. It will be held at the Greene County Historical Society's
Carriage House Museum (pending the GCHS board's approval next Monday) on April
10, 1999. 
	If approval is given and if participation exceeds minimum thresholds, I will
be offering an advance registration package for $30 that includes preferential
rates at a major chain hotel within walking distance of the museum, a
Pennsylvania Lines cap and patch, a copy of "Next Stop, Xenia," a GCHS
published book on railroads in Xenia and Greene County, Ohio.
	I have asked the Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS about offering its The
Pennsylvania Railroad, It's Place in History 1846-1996, an excellent research
guide and collection of essays edited by Dan Cupper, as part of the advance
registration package.  That, too, is to be discussed at an early December
board meeting. 

	Once the date is set, I'll begin active recruitment seminar presenters.
Presentations on any germane subject, be it modeling, historical or modern-day
activity involving Lines West, will be welcome.

	I'd definitely like to see displays or presentations by PRRMO, the GR&I
Railroad Historical Society and the PRRT&HS. I'm also hoping to organize a
Friday night or Saturday night reception at the recently opened replica of
Xenia (XG) tower on the site of the PRR depots, service facilities and yards

	Like everything else, the prices are still tentative until some decisions are
made. There will be a vendors area with a preference to be given to those
producing and selling merchandise with a Pennsylvania Lines or general Pennsy
focus.

	Any suggestions and feedback about programing, prices, timing, etc., is
appreciated however I am not accepting advance registrations until all prices
are final.

	See you in April

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Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:35:24 -0500 (EST)
From: alcoman <alcoman@net.bluemoon.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs

The other problem for the warmer times of the year was FROGS, and NO not
the steel kind either.  I read somewhere that along the NYC Chicago Line
between Buffalo and Syracuse that the scoops would pick up large numbers
of the little buggers during the summer months and when they would get to
the servicing facility there would literally be 100's of them in the
tender.


On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Bill Nixon wrote:

> Ron wrote:
> >Any idea what type of support facilities (water tanks, heating plant,
> >etc...) were at Wilmore? Wilmore doesn't even appear on most of my maps.
> >Any other PRR facilities at this location?
> 
> I met someone recently who said his grandfather used to haul coal for 
> the heaters so they wouldn't freeze in the winter.
> 
> There also was a story somewhere I read about a load of potatoes 
> getting put in one of the pans and the scoop picked up potatoes and 
> caused somekind of a problem.
> Bill
> 
> 
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> 
> 

William J. Enser         Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations 
alcoman@bluemoon.net     net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System    
x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network   
http://www.bluemoon.net  mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud        
bbs.bluemoon.net         irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server

Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net                                   


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Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:07:24 -0800
Subject: [PRR] K11 and K9, X29
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

Thanks to all for the reply on my inquiry.  Been out of town, so my
response has been delayed.

About X29s--
1.  When did most of the rebuilds into X29G, F, etc, take place?  I think
mid fifties.

2.  I model WW2 until '54:  When do the "patch" panels repairing rust
damage on the standard X29 show up?  Were they repaired before the shadow
keystone repainting?  I plan on having dirty, rust patched circle
keystones, with a few brand new shadow keystones appearing.  I just don't
know if the new paint was put over patched sides on the boxcars, or if
they received "heavy repairs".

3.  Anyone build the Gloorcraft X41A end door boxcar?  

SGT York
(there is a great new book on Alvin C. York for any of you SPF's who love
history).

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:30:28 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list

In a message dated 12/1/98 3:39:16 AM Central Standard Time, bubbles@visi.net
writes:

<<    this is a long one...What i'm doing here is listing model railroading
     magazine drawings that i mostly have...there is one on this list i
     don't have and have so noted it.Also i have listed a couple of articles
 on     PRR equipment. >>

Sorry to not have dates, but I don't have access to my old magazines right now
and I know following have appeared:
B70  MR 49 or 50
T1 Mainline Modeler
I1 MR early 50's

Bob Zoeller

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:37:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] ETT's

In a message dated 12/1/98 1:01:16 PM Central Standard Time,
Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes:

<< Hi Ron,
      That seems a little high for an employee TT.  I have purchased them in
 the $8-15 range.  Maybe I have found dealers that dont know the value of
 the timetables but it seems a little on the high side.
  >>

Amen.  I agree with Randy. About $15 seems top, depending on age and
condition.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:29:36 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] drawing lists


 Hi again folks...

  I've gotten a large list from Carl Neustrand...this is for the MR
  stuff....More is coming in either here or to me. By all means i'm
  not just limiting these lists to just MR....RMC,Model Railroading
  and Mainline Modeler have good drawings too.
  Carl's list is similar to Mr. McCall's list but there are some differences.

  Here is the list for all.....
  
  
Hello Hank,

	In 1992, Kalmbach published an "All-Time Index of Prototype Plans
1934-1992.  These plans were almost all originally published in Model
Railroading, but some have been published in other Kalmbach pubs, most
notably the MR Cyclopedia, Vol I Steam Locomotives. The MR Cyc also has
many of the drawings republished in it.  The drawings are to various
scales, not just to HO.  Anyway, here is the PRR section on Locos and
Cabins:

Locomotives:
	Lima-Hamilton Transfer		Oct 56 pg 40
	BP20				Mar 61 pg 38
	P5				jan 34 pg  7
	DD1				Mar 71 pg 48
	O1a				Jan 34 pg  7
	O1a				May 54 pg 38
	GG1				Oct 35 pg 266
	GG1				Sep 54 pg 38
	P5a				May 54 pg 38
	E2b				Oct 68 pg 46
	A3				Dec 52 pg 52
	A5s				Oct 73 pg 48
	A5s				Jan 74 pg 75
	A3a				Dec 52 pg 53
	B4a				Jul 68 pg 42
	B6			MR Cyc 1       pg 32
	C1				Jan 35 pg 12
	I1s				Feb 53 pg 46
	N1s				Nov 69 pg 48
	H1				Feb 59 pg 40
	H3				Feb 44 pg 78
	H6sb				Feb 61 pg 52
	H6sb				Jan 74 pg 76
	H9				Dec 45 pg 550
	H9s				Sep 48 pg 632
	R(H3)				Nov 86 pg 102
	L1s				Jun 52 pg 34
	D10				Mar 90 pg 86
	D13c				Mar 56 pg 38
	D16sb				Sep 40 pg 499
	D3				Sep 44 (no page # given)
	E3				Mar 41 pg 160
	E6				Mar 34 pg 10
	E6				Sep 62 pg 52
	E6				Sep 78 pg 92
	T1				Oct 46 pg 662
	G5s				Jun 39 pg 308
	G5s				Nov 52 pg 50
	K4				Jul 36 pg 186
	K4 (plain & streamlined)	Jul 43 pg 315
	M1a				Sep 38 pg 369
	M1a				Mar 68 pg 40
	S2				Mar 48 pg (no page # given)
	F3				Nov 44 pg 496
	M1				May 35 pg 128
	
Cabin Cars
	22 foot				Jan 36 pg 17
	N5				Jan 36 pg 17
	N5b				Nov 68 pg 51
	N6b				Dec 42 pg 564
	N8				Oct 61 pg 46
	N8				Apr 82 pg 80
	ND (4 or 8 wheel)		Jul 52 pg 41
	No model given, just 4 wheel	Sep 60 pg 50

Don't be thrown by some of the page numbers as I believe Kalmbach
originally numbered each volume consecutively instead of issue to issue.
By the way, I don't have copies of all these issues, but I do happen to
have a copy of the N5b drawing.  It's a gem as it includes the train
phone antennae.  If you would like a copy send me a snail mail address
and I'll send it to you. 

 Have fun guys.....

                                              Til Later
                                              Hank Mummert


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:51:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] K11 and K9, X29

In a message dated 12/1/98 7:49:03 PM Central Standard Time,
staffsgtyork@juno.com writes:

<< .  Anyone build the Gloorcraft X41A end door boxcar?   >>

Bought one in the silent auction at Kansas City.  Have applied sanding sealer.
I will use some Details West doors and Plastruct L-channel for the roof ribs
to continue the move to make the car look all steel.  Nice-fitting parts.  Am
looking forward to getting time to finish the kit for an unusual,
distinctively Pennsy car. 

Bob Zoeller 

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Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:52:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Pans & Scooping Water
From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan)

If memory serves, B&O had some pans, too.
Pat Egan
(no web access)

On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 07:22:26 PST "Andrew Harmantas"
<frisco484@hotmail.com> writes:
>Then there was another scoop story about the fireboy that didn't 
>actuate 
>the lift mechanism on the scoop in time, and the scoop tore up several 
>
>hundred yards of track before they could stop.  That must've been 
>quite 
>a ride.
>
>Andrew Harmantas, modeling RR's that scooped, all except the NYC, that 
>
>is.
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:19:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list
From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan)

>    K-4 scratchbuilding articles 1949 MR (i have the third part 12-49)
>     anyone have the others?
>  
You can get copies of the Thornburgh (?) scratchbuild a K4 article from
MR.  Just call them up on the 800 number in the front of MR, ask for the
library, tell the nice lady what you want, and give her a credit card
number.  It was in 1949 and 1950.  The price isn't bad, especially if
there's something else you're after to increase the size of the order.
You can 
Pat Egan
(no web access)

On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:53:20 -0500 (EST) bubbles@visi.net writes:
>
> Ok guys....
>    this is a long one...What i'm doing here is listing model 
>railroading
>    magazine drawings that i mostly have...there is one on this list i
>    don't have and have so noted it.Also i have listed a couple of 
>articles
>on     PRR equipment.
>
>    One reason I'm listing this is to help folks who have no idea what
>    drawings there are out there. As with many of you i would love to
>    have a Locomotive or Car encyclopedia for what i would like to 
>model
>    or for reference...but right now i can't. But i still feel they 
>are
>    both great for what a modeler needs for reference. But there are 
>times
>    also when you don't need all of it and only for one particular
>    engine or car....this is where having a certain drawing from a 
>    magazine helps. Another reason for this list is that perhaps with 
>my
>    start, all of us can add to it and after say a week or so we all
>    will have a more complete list of what is out there and then it 
>can
>    be printed out for reference. While this started out as a list of 
>only
>    freight cars due to a question posted here...i decided to expand 
>it
>    to include cabin & passenger cars and locomotives....I left any 
>structures
>    out....only equipment (there are only so many structure drawings 
>in
>    the magazines anyway).Two i would like to have had to added to 
>this list
>    would have been the K-4 drawings which i believe were printed in 
>the
>    late 1940's by Model Railroader and the GG-1 drawings (which i 
>used to
>    have) that were printed in two issues of a early 1970's Railroad
>    Model Craftsmen. In case anyone on the list is interested i also
>    have drawings for the Maryland and Pennsylvania 0-6-0,4-4-0,old 
>2-8-0
>    newer 2-8-0 engines and cabin 2002 and if i can find it one of the 
>baggage
>    cars.
>  
>    Before i get into this i would like to say that while the book
>    " PRR passenger and freight car diagrams " by Robert Wayner
>    does'nt have the best in the way of line drawings...it still is
>    a handy source when you can't find info on a car otherwise.
>
>    Note...to save space....
>
>    MR= Model Railroader
>    RMC= Railroad Model Craftsmen
>    MRing= Model Railroading
>
>    This will be the way i do this.....
>
>    (Sample) BP-60 pages 34-35  2-67 (date) RMC (magazine)
>
>    Locomotives......
>
>    A-4 page 98 6-94 MR
>    B-4a page 42 7-68 MR
>    E-6s pages 92-93 9-78 MR (part of a model conversion article)
>    G-5s page 50 11-52 MR
>    H-3 (R) 100-104 11-86 MR
>    H-6sb page 52 2-61 MR
>    M-1a page 40 3-68 MR
>    N-1s page 48 11-69 MR
>    GG-1 (part of Broadway drawings) pages 84-99 10-94 MR
>    BP-60 pages 34-35 2-67 RMC
>    Baldwin 1500hp sharks (PRR) page 38 10-66 MR
>    K-4 scratchbuilding articles 1949 MR (i have the third part 12-49)
>     anyone have the others?
>
>    Cabin Cars.....
>
>    NA page 90 10-96 RMC (part of article)
>    N-4 page 124 12-95 MR
>    N-5 (a and b) page 51 11-68 MR
>    N-5c 4-82 ? MR (THIS IS ONE I DON'T HAVE)<-----------
>    N-8 conversion article in 2-70 RMC
>
>    Pre 1900 cars.....
>
>    GB page 90 10-96 RMC(this and below part of article)
>    XA page 90 10-96 RMC
>    KA page 91 10-96 RMC
>    Tool Car (no class given)page 40 10-59 MR
>    PF Coach pages 32-33 8-65 MR
>
>    Pre WWII freight cars.....
>
>    H-30 pages 66-67 10-81 MR (part of article)
>    F-30 (aka commonwealth flat) page 34 3-89 MRing (part of article)
>    F-33 pages 27-29 4-55 RMC
>    FM page 42 8-63 MR (also see page 81 10-77 MR)
>    XL pages 38-39 8-57 MR
>    XL Camp Car page 56 9-66 MR 
>    R-7 (reefer) pages 40-45 4-58 MR (part of article)
>
>    Post WWII freight cars....
>
>    G-39 page 47 12-67 RMC
>    H-2a (N&W H-10) page 39 6-65 MR
>
>    Passenger Cars....
>
>    PB-54 and MP-54E page 78 10-69 MR
>    Modernized P-70 No.s 4244-4309 pages 44-45 10-68 RMC
>    1920's Pullman Combine (Liberty series plans 3951-3951c)pages 
>110-111
>11-89MR (These cars for PRR service,later rebuilt)
>    D-70 page 67 1-55 RMC
>    B-70 theater cars pages 48-49 7-67 RMC 
>    P-70 and MPB-70 cars page 36 8-63 MR
>    1949 Broadway Limited (plus GG-1) pages 84-99 10-94 MR
>    POS21A (1938) pages 34-35 8-67 RMC
>    POS21 (1949) (pullman plan 4134) pages 42-43 8-68 RMC
>    PS106 ("rapids" and "eagle" series cars) page 89 7-96 MR
>    PS18 ("City of" series cars,1938) pages 48-49 8-67 RMC
>    P85b page 111 10-95 MR
>
>    (Heavyweight Pullmans)
>    12-1 Sleeper pages 40-41 2-66 MR
>    12-1   "   (pullman plan 2410-1) pages 56-57 12-67 RMC
>    8-1-2  "      "      "   3979A   pages 58-59 12-67 RMC
>    8-1-1  "      "      "   2585D   pages 34-35 8-68 RMC
>    8-3-1  "      "      "   4090    pages 34-35 8-68 RMC
>
>
>
>    Well thats all of it....I sincerly hope this helps someone.
>
>
>                                          Til Later
>                                          Hank Mummert   
>    
>    
>
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:47:35 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list

Hank and All,
   Doesn't anyone out there read mainline Modeler?  I know that there are
excellent drawings published of the J-1, M-1, and I believe the T-1.  I know
as for diesels they did the FA/B-1&2 and the PA/B-1 as well as all the RS-3's,
DL-600 and GP-7& 9's and the F-3's.  For equipment they did the X-26, X-29B,
X-31&32 , the GS gondola in all configurations and the GRA and boy I cannot
recall what all.  I could go into all the passenger cars both streamlined and
Heavy weight.  If you want to know which issues just contact our good friend
on the list Al Stump SR. (ALBERTSR@aol.com) and I think he has a data base for
them.  And this stuff is just off the top of my head! 
   Greg Martin 

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Subject: Re: [PRR] ETT's
From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 01:45:02 EST

Sounds reasonable. Get on Carl Loucks mailing list. His listings are
probably the best market gauge.

MEA
______________________________
PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY        PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com
Management Services           Telephone 609-683-0356

On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:59:18 -0800 Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org> writes:
>Hi All,
>
>Have the oppurtunity to purchase a Pittsburgh Division ETT for $30. 
>Been
>having a devil of a time finding one for my era/locale and this is the
>first one in my '39-'59 span that I've seen . Is $30 dollars about 
>what
>these usually go for?
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Ron.
>
>
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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 06:08:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (I)

In a message dated 11/30/98 11:05:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
LINESWEST@aol.com writes:

> While the PRR purchased the CL&N in 1896, two years after the CL&N completed
>  widening to standard gauge (with help of PRR financing), the CL&N did NOT
>  purchase the Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati RR & Terminal Co., until 1912.

This must be the kind of thing that gives real historians fits.  There
apparently were several stages of the takeover, with John Hauck stating the
CL&N was operating through to Dayton over the DL&C in the summer of 1914.
Then he says the CL&N's purchase contract for the DL&C was December 14, 1914,
with a contract to operate it four days later.  Everyone confused now?

> The
>  DL&C was builder and original operator of the line north of Dodds in Warren
>  County including the branch to Clement which intersected with the B&O 
> Wellston
>  sub and what became the mainline serving DESC, NCR and the PRR freight
Depot.
>
Technically, the DL&C didn't build itself.  It wound up with the 16.96 mile
property in December 1888, six years after it was built by the Toledo,
Delphos, and Burlington in 1881 or 1882 -- in other words, it was constructed
(very badly) by the 3-foot-gauge operator of the line through LEBANON
JUNCTION, at its north end.  The TD&B line later was the 3-foot-gauge Dayton
Fort Wayne & Chicago (controlled by the Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton).  Later
the DFW&C was standard gauged, and the CH&D entered the B&O camp before 1925.

That line through LEBANON JUNCTION is the one we know as the Wellston
Subdivision (there is a Wellston vaguely near Jackson OH).  Just to add to the
merriment, that 1925 map of Dayton rail facilities tags it the "Wellington
Branch".  This latter name is probably an innocent mistake by the consulting
engineers who drafted the map; their address is New York City.

Interesting that the early owner(s) of the CL&N and of the DL&C were buddies
in Cincinnati.  Somehow the DL&C owner was unfazed by the fact it lost money
every year -- he must have figured he would make out when he sold it.

>  	In 1916 the CL&N was made part of the PRR's disjointed Pennsylvania, Ohio
&
>  Detroit RR.
>  

Again, historian heartburn -- Hauck says the PO&D consolidation agreement was
dated June 7, 1924, but it didn't receive ICC approval until December 10,
1925.  BTW, interesting 18 month time lag.  

I know the ICC was notorious for slow work, but I wonder if anyone was
contesting this consolidation (sounds really lame)?  We'll never know.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West 


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:17:34 -0500
From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon)
Subject: [PRR] Re: [Fwd: the latest NS/GTI rumor]

I know that this is off topic, but several subscribers keep track of
this kind of stuff.  But it is rail stuff and Guilford/Springfield
Terminal has a lousy reputation. They've been wrangling with AMTRAK for
several years over rights for a Maine to Boston link. Please contact me
off list with any info or observations.

Thank you for your tolerance.

Tom Mahon

Ian MacMillan wrote:
> 
> Heres a rummor, that I hope comes true!
> 
> Ian
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: the latest NS/GTI rumor
> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:27:05 -0500
> From: BKulik <kulik01@MINT.NET>
> Reply-To: New England Railroad Discussion List <NERAIL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>,
>      BKulik <kulik01@MINT.NET>
> To: NERAIL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> 
> Brewster Bird just called me and asked to relay the following (his computer
> is off line) to NERAIL.  I cannot vouch for its accuracy, so take it with
> however many grains (or sacks or covered hoppers) of salt you wish.
> 
> Brewster reports that a family friend from NH with relatives working for
> Guilford reported to him that STI and Norfolk Southern today have signed an
> agreement for NS to purchase the B&M. He wasn't sure, but thinks the deal
> is exclusive of any fibre optic transmission rights or other non-rr assets.
> 
> I know how widely the prospect of just such a sale has been discussed on
> this list in the recent past.  Anyone else heard anything recent that
> confirms or denies this?
> 
> Brandon Kulik
> kulik01@mint.net
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                 New England Railroad Discussion List
>            to contact the owner send email to:   GEMERY@TIAC.NET
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:49:25 -0500
From: bobsin@nac.net
Subject: [PRR] Magazine drawing list

I believe RMC once had (fairly rough) drawings of the E-44.  If no
one has the reference handy, I may have it buried away somewhere.

John Bobsin



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:52:53 EST
Subject: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list

Please add Prototype Modeler November-December 1988 for EP20 and EP22 drawings
and history.

Bob Zoeller

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Boilerbob7@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:20:25 EST
Subject: [PRR] Pullman Car Company

The historic Pullman Car Factory on the south side of Chicago was destroyed in
a fire Dec 1. It was to be a railroad museum.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:40:59 -0500
From: "s.a. mccall" <hosam@amaze.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs


Question-how were the troughs filled and how was the level maintained?

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:49:25 -0500
From: bobsin@nac.net
Subject: [PRR] Magazine drawing list

I believe RMC once had (fairly rough) drawings of the E-44.  If no
one has the reference handy, I may have it buried away somewhere.

John Bobsin


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:15:33 -0500
From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list



I use the online model train magazine index to find
plans.... try it out:

http://www.accurail.com/tm.htm


click on Search... By Keyword and then
search with the keywords "PRR plans"

my search came up with 153 entries back
to MR March 1934 (it seems that most of
the interesting, to me, PRR plans are all
pre 1950 :( it would be great if MR and others
re-published these once in a while)

kbt

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:19:40 -0500 (EST)
From: alcoman <alcoman@net.bluemoon.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs


It was done much like a well is now with a float and valve assembly or
like a commode.  There was a float valve attached to the side of the
trough and when the water was scooped up the valve would drop opening the
filler line to the tank.  The water would fill to the desired level and
then the water would shut off.  The same principle is used for
self-filling animal water troughs on farms and such.

On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, s.a. mccall wrote:

> 
> Question-how were the troughs filled and how was the level maintained?
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 

William J. Enser         Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations 
alcoman@bluemoon.net     net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System    
x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network   
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bbs.bluemoon.net         irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server

Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net                                   


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 98 10:01:07 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/2/98 9:40 AM, s.a. mccall (hosam@amaze.net) wrote:

>Question-how were the troughs filled and how was the level maintained?

I know there were cisterns nearby. In fact, Bill Lewis has told me on 
numerous ocassions that there is still a cistern existing on the Middle 
Division, I just forget where.

I am sure that they were gravity fed and the level was probably 
maintained simply via the interaction of gravity & back pressure vs. 
overflow.

All just conjecture on my part.

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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From: "Miracle Castings Inc." <miracle-castings@on.aibn.com>
Subject: [PRR] British rail pans
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:30:34 -0500

Hi All!  I was just reading a British rail mag I have last night, and they
had an article about track pans.  Apparently they sometimes had train
cancellations because of engine problems, caused by ballast picked up by
trains using the track pans.  The one set of pans they showed had a 55,000
gal. reservoir tank, and took 2 minutes to refill after a train passed. They
also mentioned passengers in trailing cars getting drenched by overflows
caused by not raising the scoop fast enough.  Seems to me I also remember
reading about a derailment caused in the US, by a train's water scoop not
retracting properly and catching on a road crossing timber.  Sounds like
they had their problems with the things......

Pat Lawless


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:21:35 -0500
From: Dan Cupper <dan@cwix.com>
Subject: [PRR] Surviving Cisterns on Middle Division main line


>numerous ocassions that there is still a cistern existing on the Middle
>Division, I just forget where.


Greetings to Jerry and the list:

Two that I know of for certain -- at Hawstone, in the Lewistown Narrows, for
the track pans and at Longfellow, near McVeytown, for the non-scooping water
station. The one at Hawstone is in the woods but the one at Longfellow is
*right* beside Route 103, overgrown but right there on the hillside
overlooking the long curve at MP 173.  BTW, that's a wonderful place to
watch trains, Rtoue 103 parallels the railroad off-and-on for a couple of
miles.

Dan Cupper
dan@cwix.com
2 Cor. 9:6-7


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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:32:29 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] LinesWest Fans Fest update,  April 11 CL&N fantrip set

In a message dated 12/2/98 6:08:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton
writes:

<< Have you thought about photo exhibits (mounted prints)?
  >>
Yes, in fact On two subjects
. The Dayton Montgomery County Library and the Wright State University have
copies of a PRR published book on the Great 1913 flood, the only event in 99
years to halt all traffic between Pittsburgh and Chicago. It is heavy on
photographs. I'd like to store the prints digitally and produce prints for
display.

	The other would be the PRR in Xenia and Greene County drawing from the Greene
County, Xenia, Spring Valley, Cedarville, Beavercreek, Yellow Springs, South
Charleston historical society, Harry Noble, George McCleland and others.
There's shots available to span the entire 140 years that the PRR or its
forbears and successors were active in the Little Miami Valley.

	Also possible is a display on the bike paths and restoration and
reconstruction involving the PRR in West Central and South West Ohio

Now about history:


<<Technically, the DL&C didn't build itself.  It wound up with the 16.96 mile
property in December 1888, six years after it was built by the Toledo,
Delphos, and Burlington in 1881 or 1882 -- in other words, it was constructed
(very badly) by the 3-foot-gauge operator of the line through LEBANON
JUNCTION, at its north end.  The TD&B line later was the 3-foot-gauge Dayton
Fort Wayne & Chicago (controlled by the Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton).  Later
the DFW&C was standard gauged, and the CH&D entered the B&O camp before
1925.>>

	True, but the DL&C DID build a 9+ line from Hempstead, a junction which was
located on  the present 130+ acre site of the Kettering Meijer store on the
Southwest Corner of Stroop Road and Wilmington Pike north through Van  Buren
Township into Dayton to Dayton Union Terminal where it served the national
headquarters and primary manufacturing works of the National Cash Register Co.
(the real NCR, Jerry, the North Central Railway is abbreviated NCRy), the
Dayton State Hospital and, during and after WWII, Gentile Air Force supply
Depot, later the e Defense Electric Supply Center. South of Hempstead the only
customers on the line north of Lebanon were the grain elevator and feed mill
on Franklin Street (Centerville Station Road in Greene County) and Limestone
quarries around Centerville & Lytle.
	In 1908 delays in completion of the DL&C to NCR sparked a rather amusing feud
between NCR founder John Patterson and Dayton Daily News Publisher (later Ohio
governor and 1920 Democratic presidential candidate) James M.  Cox during
which Patterson closed NCR to have more time to spend on his suits against Cox
	It is interesting to note that the sale was not final until after it was
complete. The confusion over dates may stem from the difference between the
announcement of an intent to buy and final ICC or Public Utilities Commission
approval of the purchase.

Tom V.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:21:22 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh ETT correction.

In a message dated 98-12-01 15:50:43 EST, rond@efn.org writes:

<< So far respondents feel $30 is kinda high, but I've not seen any others >>

This is the entire ETT issue in a nutshell.  As they become rarer and
rarer, prices will soar.  I would gladly pay $30 for a pre-1940 ETT in
good, excellent, or mint condition, if I needed it.  This price is probably
about normal for "established" dealers, such as Carl Loucks.  You can
often do better than this at shows, but your chances of  NOT finding
what you want at a show are considerable.

Rich Copeland

P.S. -- does anyone have a Toledo Div they are willing to part with?
Preferred(but not required) dates are 4/27/41 or 9/28/47.
Please contact me privately.

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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:36:30 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] drawing lists,Mainline Modeler and Jersey electric cars.


 Hi again folks....

   I'm getting some pretty good input for where to find drawings of PRR
   equipment....I'll check out all the sources and info as i get them,
   then after about a week (if i get time to get it all in one e-mail)
   I'll post it all to the group.

   Maybe perhaps later i'll do a structures list...but for now just
   the equipment.

   I have the articles on the RS-3 from Mainline Modeler...but no
   drawings...drat. BTW...either MM or Model Railroading had a article
   and some drawings for catenary about a year or so ago...But  i
   think it was for the Virginian Rwy. Very similar to PRR types.

   Also about a week ago...someone mentioned the electric cars used on the
   line to Atlantic City.....In " PRR passenger and freight car Diagrams "
   on page 38 there is a MP-54 like car diagram...classed MPB 54 D with 
   trolley poles shown on top of the car. Also on page 40 there is a 
   diagram for a W.J.& S. RR car...This car is a wooden interurban like
   coach...shows bases for trolley poles. Looks to be a Brill or Niles
   type car. 


                                              til later
                                              Hank Mummert


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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:19:20 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Hmmmmm perhaps a rethinking of this


 Hi again folks.....

   Ok here's whats up...Both Keith Thompson and Dick Ross sent me a URL
   for Accurail's magazine list. This is a very complete list that i
   was'nt aware of...There are though some sources that are not listed.
   Perhaps it would be easier to post the URL here and a bit later
   list sources that are'nt in Accurail's list. Here below is Accurail's
   list URL....under KEY WORD type in PRR Drawings. There are 153 PRR
   drawing listings out of 498 PRR related findings. Have Fun 

   http://www.accurail.com/tm.htm

   I'll keep you all posted on what happens...

   Oh...one more thing...Anyone have or could send me a copy of the
   Oct. 1971 Model Railroader Drawing for the business car " Chesapeake "
   ( A must for a Baltimore modeler )....Hmmm are there decals for PRR
   business cars?


                                         Thanks you all
                                         Hank Mummert


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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:17:01 EST
Subject: [PRR] ALL TIME MAGAZINE LIST

This has been posted once - but it was a long time ago: for an "ALL TIME"
searchable index of MANY Magazine articles see:  
<A HREF="http://www.accurail.com/tm.htm">Model Train Magazine Index</A>
http://www.accurail.com/tm.htm   
AOL  users can go direct to: http:// www.accurail.com/tm_aol.htm 
Dick Ross
Cleveland 

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Subject: [PRR] FM C-Liners -- What Class?
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 98 15:11:10 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Are the FM "C-Liners" and "CF16A/B" one and the same...PRR Class FF16?

If not, what model/class is "C-Liner" a nickname for?

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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:34:48 -0500 (EST)
From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs

At 09:40 AM 12/2/98 -0500, s.a. mccall wrote:
>
>Question-how were the troughs filled and how was the level maintained?
>

        - Can't speak for the PRR, but I have seen blueprints for an NYC
track pan installation, which included a pump house with some filtration
equipment and steam heating to condition the water year-round. Level control
was likely (not sure, though) via sight glass or float mechanism situated in
the pump house.

Bob Rothrock



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Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:08:45 -0800
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs

Hi All,

"The other problem for the warmer times of the year was FROGS, ....when
they would get to the servicing facility there would literally be 100's
of them in the tender."

Oh, great. Now the "Ribet Counters" will insist that we model these,
complete with authentic sound systems. Does anyone know the correct
pitch/tone for Pennsylvania frogs?

Thanks,

Ron.



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Subject: Re: [PRR] K11 and K9, X29 
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:08:45 -0500
From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

On 1 Dec, staffsgtyork@juno.com wrote:

> 2.  I model WW2 until '54:  When do the "patch" panels repairing rust
> damage on the standard X29 show up?  Were they repaired before the shadow
> keystone repainting?  I plan on having dirty, rust patched circle
> keystones, with a few brand new shadow keystones appearing.  I just don't
> know if the new paint was put over patched sides on the boxcars, or if
> they received "heavy repairs".

They were definitely repaired before SK; there's a photo
analysis of Camden Yard in 1948(?) in a very recent RMJ (the
sole reason I bought the mag) that clearly shows an X29 with
the patches.

And yes, they were repainted, or at least patch-painted, and
I believe that the cars got reweighed.

One of the freightcar list gurus has said that he would find
a postwar X29 without the patches less than credible, but
you know *them*.  :-)

Did you see the article (by Bill Darnaby?) in a very recent
MR regarding modelling these patches?

BTW, our modelling aims coincide quite closely...

Dennis Rockwell     SPF(N)    dennis@bbn.com      Cambridge MA

I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning!


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Subject: [PRR] BP60 and Dynamic Brakes
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 98 12:54:36 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

To answer a question from a few days ago...

According to "Form 109:K Classification and Description of Locomotives 
and Tenders", Class BP60 (Centipedes) did NOT have dynamic brakes. Nor 
did Class BH50, the same unit converted to helper service later in life.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:27:52 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] K11 and K9, X29

In a message dated 12/1/98 20:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
staffsgtyork@juno.com writes:

<< About X29s--
 1.  When did most of the rebuilds into X29G, F, etc, take place?  I think
 mid fifties.

Perhaps this will help.  This is a list of the number of the subclasses shown
in the ORER for the dates given.

CLASS   	OCT 44	OCT 48	APR 52	OCT 53	OCT 58	OCT 63	APR 68
X29	             27696	27468	24533	23336	20533	2212	130
X29A             	1	     1	   1       	1	   1		
X29B        	              381	4404	4485	4415	4347	2525
X29C			                     4            6	    6	  28	        3
X29D			                  NEW	 999	4075	4018	3055
X29E					                               100	100    	98
X29F					              			NEW	398		395
X29G												898		879
X29H														 28
X29K														12
X29L														416

 
 2.  I model WW2 until '54:  When do the "patch" panels repairing rust
 damage on the standard X29 show up?     1940's


Were they repaired before the shadow
 keystone repainting?  YES

I plan on having dirty, rust patched circle
 keystones, with a few brand new shadow keystones appearing.  I just don't
 know if the new paint was put over patched sides on the boxcars, or if
 they received "heavy repairs".  BOTH HEAVY REPAIRS USUALLY MEANT REBUILD TO A
DIFFERENT SUBCLASS IN THE CASE OF THE X29's
 
Rich Orr
 >>

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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] ETT's
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:21:29 -0500 (EST)

> Amen.  I agree with Randy. About $15 seems top, depending on age and
> condition.
> Bob Zoeller

As I stated in personal email, I agree with the above assessment.
My recent experience at PRRT&HS meetings is that RRiana stuff there
is often overpriced, a few particular (and favorite, for me) dealers
excepted.  I guess they're figuring the audience is captive.

--
Mark


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Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:54:04 -0500
From: bobsin@nac.net
Subject: [PRR] Magazine drawing list - E44

Following Keith's suggestion to try the Accurail search engine,
it appears that the RMC E44 plans may have been either July 1966
or December 1961; I suspect I never saw the '61, so the 7/66 may 
be it.

John Bobsin


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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:35:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PRR] LinesWest Fans Fest update,  April 11 CL&N fantrip set

On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 LINESWEST@aol.com wrote:

> . The Dayton Montgomery County Library and the Wright State University have
> copies of a PRR published book on the Great 1913 flood, the only event in 99
> years to halt all traffic between Pittsburgh and Chicago. It is heavy on
> photographs. I'd like to store the prints digitally and produce prints for
> display.

Likewise, the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh has this book, as well as a
PRR book on the floods of 1936 and 1937, also heavy on pix. Maybe someday
I'll get a portable scanner.

-D



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Subject: Re: [PRR] Magazine drawing list - E44
From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:53:45 EST

While I have not gone into my attic to find it, I believe that the RMC
Drawings accompanied an article by Bill Schopp [sic] on converting an AHM
U-25C into a pseudo E44

MEA
______________________________
PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY        PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com
Management Services           Telephone 609-683-0356

On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:54:04 -0500 bobsin@nac.net writes:
>Following Keith's suggestion to try the Accurail search engine,
>it appears that the RMC E44 plans may have been either July 1966
>or December 1961; I suspect I never saw the '61, so the 7/66 may 
>be it.
>
>John Bobsin
>
>
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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:40:51 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] FM C-Liners -- What Class?


--------------1B98A2A3F9C8CF7C2C2B96F0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy All:

Yes Jerry the PRR class FF16 (A & B units)is the same as the CFA-16-4 /
CFB-16-4.  Fairbanks-Morse - Consolidation Line Freight [or Passenger] (A or
B) - 16(00 horsepower) - 4 axles.  The model was available in 1600, 2000 or
2400 hp.  The PRR only bought the 1600 hp freight model.  16 A units (9448A
to 9455A and 9492A to 9499A) and 8 B units - even numbers only (9448B to
9454B and 9492B to 9498B).  Both A and B units had dynamic brakes.

The Consolidation Line was also available in 5 axles models CPA(B)-16, 20 or
24 - 5.  The big CPA-24-5 had 2 traction motors on the B end with an A-1-A
truck.  I have no information as to a Freight version of the -5 model.  I
had an AHM model of one many years ago - CN wet noddle - can't remember if
it had the A-1-A truck or not.

All of the FF16's and various versions of FF20's are off the PRR roster by
1965 - however NYC had 8 A's and 4 B's at the time of the merger - they
where all retired with out new PC numbers

cos
wsbcos.com

Jerry wrote:

> Are the FM "C-Liners" and "CF16A/B" one and the same...PRR Class FF16?
>
> If not, what model/class is "C-Liner" a nickname for?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>    Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
> Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>    Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
> WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>    The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!
>
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--------------1B98A2A3F9C8CF7C2C2B96F0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy All:

<P>Yes Jerry the PRR class FF16 (A &amp; B units)is the same as the CFA-16-4
/ CFB-16-4.&nbsp; Fairbanks-Morse - <B><I>C</I></B>onsolidation Line <B><I>F</I></B>reight
[or <B><I>P</I></B>assenger] (<B><I>A</I></B> or <B><I>B) </I></B>- <B><I>16</I></B>(00
horsepower) - <B><I>4 </I></B>axles.&nbsp; The model was available in 1600,
2000 or 2400 hp.&nbsp; The PRR only bought the 1600 hp freight model.&nbsp;
16 A units (9448A to 9455A and 9492A to 9499A) and 8 B units - even numbers
only (9448B to 9454B and 9492B to 9498B).&nbsp; Both A and B units had
dynamic brakes.

<P>The Consolidation Line was also available in 5 axles models CPA(B)-16,
20 or 24 - 5.&nbsp; The big CPA-24-5 had 2 traction motors on the B end
with an A-1-A truck.&nbsp; I have no information as to a Freight version
of the -5 model.&nbsp; I had an AHM model of one many years ago - CN wet
noddle - can't remember if it had the A-1-A truck or not.

<P>All of the FF16's and various versions of FF20's are off the PRR roster
by 1965 - however NYC had 8 A's and 4 B's at the time of the merger - they
where all retired with out new PC numbers

<P>cos
<BR>wsbcos.com

<P>Jerry wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Are the FM "C-Liners" and "CF16A/B" one and the same...PRR
Class FF16?

<P>If not, what model/class is "C-Liner" a nickname for?

<P>------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>Jerry Britton, SPF&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jerry@dsop.com
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
<BR>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at <A HREF="http://kc.pennsyrr.com">http://kc.pennsyrr.com</A>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
<BR>WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!

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--------------1B98A2A3F9C8CF7C2C2B96F0--


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Subject: [PRR] George Pierson Layout Photos
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 98 08:23:34 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I have posted several photos of George Pierson's "Middle Division" 
layout, featuring the Denholm coal wharf.

George did a wonderful job modeling this area, and it's worth a look. See
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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From: "Gabe" <gabe@polymath.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water troughs
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 07:39:34 -0500

>        - Can't speak for the PRR, but I have seen blueprints for an NYC
>track pan installation, which included a pump house with some filtration
>equipment and steam heating to condition the water year-round. Level
control
>was likely (not sure, though) via sight glass or float mechanism situated
in
>the pump house.
>
>Bob Rothrock


I can't offer much technically on this, but can say for certain that PRR did
also
use steam for the winter trough use - my info comes from a (long ago)
conversation with the trough maintenance man at Grundy on NEC.



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 07:27:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Ed Turner - SE BellSouth District <Ed.Turner@East.Sun.COM>
Subject: [PRR] Fire guts last remaining structure of Pullman works

Fire guts last remaining structure of Pullman works.

Someone mentioned this yesterday on the list.  CNN OnLine has a story:

http://www.cnn.com/US/9812/03/pullman.01.ap/

Regards,
Ed
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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:42:35 -0500
From: Michael Bezilla <mxb13@psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving Cisterns on Middle Division main line

>>numerous ocassions that there is still a cistern existing on the Middle
>>Division, I just forget where.

In addition to the ones Dan Cupper mentioned at Hawstone & Longfellow, a
cistern also survives on the hillside above the tracks in Jacks Narrows
(between Mapleton & Mt Union). It fed the Mapleton pans. I think the pans
over near Bellwood were not fed from cisterns but from either or both the
reservoirs the PRR built at the foot of the mountain above Tipton and
Bellwood, these also supplied water to the Juniata shops. Dan, correct me
if I'm wrong on this. -mike



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Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving Cisterns on Middle Division main line
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 98 10:15:29 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/3/98 8:42 AM, Michael Bezilla (mxb13@psu.edu) wrote:

>In addition to the ones Dan Cupper mentioned at Hawstone & Longfellow, a
>cistern also survives on the hillside above the tracks in Jacks Narrows
>(between Mapleton & Mt Union).

Bingo! I'm almost sure the Jacks Narrows cistern was the one that Bill 
Lewis had originally told me about. He mentioned that it was up on the 
side of a hill, mostly overgrown with vegetation. I'm sure that was the 
one.

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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:00:10 -0500
From: Michael Bezilla <mxb13@psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving Cisterns on Middle Division main line


>>In addition to the ones Dan Cupper mentioned at Hawstone & Longfellow, a
>>cistern also survives on the hillside above the tracks in Jacks Narrows
>>(between Mapleton & Mt Union).
>
>Bingo! I'm almost sure the Jacks Narrows cistern was the one that Bill
>Lewis had originally told me about. He mentioned that it was up on the
>side of a hill, mostly overgrown with vegetation. I'm sure that was the
>one.

Well, the one at Hawstone is on a hillside and overgrown too. It is easily
seen--and reached--via Pa. rt. 333 (across the river from US 322). Just
literally a stone's throw from 333. The one at Mapleton has no easy access
by road. -mike



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:38:29 +0000
From: "John H. Wright" <jhwright@jhwright.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [PRR] Water Troughs and tender aquaria

In message <366638FE.6967@efn.org>, Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org> writes
>"The other problem for the warmer times of the year was FROGS, ....when
>they would get to the servicing facility there would literally be 100's
>of them in the tender."
>
>Oh, great. Now the "Ribet Counters" will insist that we model these,
>complete with authentic sound systems. Does anyone know the correct
>pitch/tone for Pennsylvania frogs?

The frog I ran over last week would B Flat:-)

Though not quite on the frog thread, when locomotives used to be
assigned to individual drivers some of the British old-timers from the
turn of the century  were fond of keeping fish in their tenders, eels
being the favourite. The theory was they nibbled the vegetation and
stuff that grew in the tanks  and so kept the sieves clean.  Crew would
throw them the left-overs from their meals and there are reports of some
of these eels growing to prodigious size. Sometimes a new crew would
forget about the occupant in the tank and turn steam back to heat the
feed-water!

Regards,
-- 
John H. Wright

Visit the  Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's 
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Descriptions and views of our layouts in:
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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:30:24 -0500
From: Dan Cupper <dan@cwix.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving Cisterns on Middle Division main line

. I think the pans
>over near Bellwood were not fed from cisterns but from either or both the
>reservoirs the PRR built at the foot of the mountain above Tipton and
>Bellwood, these also supplied water to the Juniata shops. Dan, correct me
>if I'm wrong on this. -Mike Bezilla
>
>
Greetings to Mike & the list:

Think you must be right -- PRR had an extensive water system, with multiple
reservoirs and many miles of water mains, in the
Altoona-Juniata-Hollidaysburg area.  If I'm remembering correctly, the
statistic I recall is that the shops used 1 million gallons of water a day.
It would have been relatively easy to extend feeder lines to the track pans
at Bellwood, which lay just beyond the east approach to East Altoona yard.

Dan Cupper


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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:38:33 EST
Subject: [PRR] Details for PRR X40 60' Merchandise Serv & Auto box

 Hey folks,

	For kicks I'm updating scratch-built Pennsy X40 Merchandise Service and auto
boxcars based on a May 1956 MR "dollar model project" construction story and a
June 1971 MR story on auto boxes.
	My questions are:

	1. PRR auto box end doors were listed in the 1997 Walther's catalogue as a
Westerfield detail part. I'm assuming this was from their X25 outside braced
auto box. It's not listed in the 1999 catalogue. Would these doors be correct
for the X40B? Is there any accurate after-market part for the end doors?

	2. I've got the Champ decal set for the PRR Merchandise Service original
scheme (I model 1950 so this would be correct. Champion lists a 40' auto car
with a Keystone on the ball herald. Dose any one out there make a complete set
for the X40B including data.

	Thanks in  advance,

	Tom V. 

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:08:18 EST
Subject: [PRR] Merchandise announcement

Jerry,
Afraid I accidnetly deleted your announcement before reading it. Could you
reissue it, please? Thanks,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:46:41 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving Cisterns on Middle Division main line



---Dan Cupper <dan@cwix.com> wrote:
<snip>

> ...PRR had an extensive water system, with multiple
> reservoirs and many miles of water mains, in the
> Altoona-Juniata-Hollidaysburg area.

 <snip> 

Not just the Middle Division. Pittsburgh Division had
a system of reservoirs, pump houses, water mains
running from near Johnstown all the way to Pittsburgh.

I recall reading in a coal mining reference from the
WW 1 era that PRR also had reservoirs in the Indian
Creek Valley, complete with a system of wooden flumes
to carry mine drainage past their water system. (I
was down in the Indian Creek country in the late '40s
and saw the remains of the flumes, although at the
time I didn't know what I was seeing).

More recently, the PRR water works were sold to a
water company, which has been making a buck by
connecting the old PRR system into municipal water
systems when they run low.

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob 
_________________________________________________________
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From: "Brian Brandt" <trains@redrose.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fire guts last remaining structure of Pullman works
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:09:43 -0500

The shame of it is, the history of the Pullman Company is on Trains
Unlimited tonight.

                                                Brian Brandt


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From: CENTGA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:36:53 EST
Subject: [PRR] Altoona Yard Blueprints

A couple of months ago someone on the list purchased the Altoona yard
blueprints off E-Bay, but I can't remember who, if this applies to you will
you please contact me off the list. Thanks Todd Horton

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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:51:35 -0800
Subject: [PRR] Re: X29--got it right
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com



Thanks for all the input!

David "SGT" York

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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:28:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Towers
From: rbreon@juno.com (Roy K Breon)

Good photo shot.  If memory serves, the coaling tower is off screen to
the left (west).  Pedestrian bridge for the workers in shown in lower
center coming from the town and over the remaining tracks.  Looks like
room for about eight tracks under the bridge.  How many were there?  Note
the pile of cabese on the tracks to the right.  These were discussed on
this list a month or so ago.  Was there a transfer table in that
rectangular area to the left of the right hand building?  Lines to the
right went to Lock Haven then Williamsport, Sunbury, and Harrisburg.
Lines to the left to Buffalo.
Roy Breon
Pittsford, NY


On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:30:33 -0500 "Wayne F. Dibert"
<102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>In response to the coaling towers, I was born in Renovo in 1953 and 
>my
>parents born and raised in Renovo. I remember the steam engines and 
>the
>coaling tower. It is an impressive sight and still stands today. The
>Renovo Record, their local paper, did a story on the tower and the 
>need
>for support in the wednesday October 30, 1996 edition. It stated that
>they were looking for support for a new Heritage Park and that the
>coaling tower would be the focal point. They needed letters of 
>support
>for the project. I am not sure how much they received. I go back to
>Renovo many times a year and the tower is still there with the shops 
>in
>the background. It is a shame, their is not much support for the
>railroad that built that town.
>
>i have timetable and P.R.R. rules dated 1948 form the Williamsport
>Division if any one is interested. That was a great area for 
>railroading
>
>Check out this link.
>
>http://cub.kcnet.org/~ssmith1/renovo.htm
>
>You get a good birds eye view of the shops and what was the Railroad
>yard.
>

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:54:12 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: Details for PRR X40 60' Merchandise Serv & Auto box

Tom and All,

  If I understand you correctly you are scratch building and X-40B?  To that I
say "BULLY."  I knew I like you and not just because you are a Line West man!
I'll see if I can help out here.

In a message LINESWEST@AOL.COM writes:

<< Hey folks,
 
         For kicks I'm updating scratch-built Pennsy X40 Merchandise Service
and auto
 boxcars based on a May 1956 MR "dollar model project" construction story and
a
 June 1971 MR story on auto boxes.
         My questions are:
 
         1. PRR auto box end doors were listed in the 1997 Walther's catalogue
as a
 Westerfield detail part. I'm assuming this was from their X25 outside braced
 auto box. It's not listed in the 1999 catalogue. Would these doors be correct
 for the X40B? Is there any accurate after-market part for the end doors?>>

First I think you have X-41A in mind because it is the double door car and
therefore would have the end doors, unless I am mistaken the single door car
did not receive end doors.  3^)  Forget about the resin part for the X-25 it
would likely be to short and there is a better alternative.  Sacrifice a
couple Like Like P2K 50' box car kits as you need to come up with a good panel
roof anyway. Cut the sides out as the car had welded sides any way.  Be aware
that the outside eve of the car is a funky design and requires beveling.  Cut,
stretch and paste and you've got it.  You'll need a 7 foot early Youngstown
Steel Door for the X-41B and the 2 for the X-41A.  The underframe is purely a
guess without drawings and I think that you can come up with them from Feb.
1968 MR I believe? (help Al Stump) Could have been later.  If there are no
drawings of the underframe then a good rule of thumb is that there is a cross
bearer under each door jamb and at least one more usually somewhere between
the door jamb and the bolster.      
 
 <<        2. I've got the Champ decal set for the PRR Merchandise Service
original
 scheme (I model 1950 so this would be correct. Champion lists a 40' auto car
 with a Keystone on the ball herald. Dose any one out there make a complete
set
 for the X40B including data.>>

Tom, not that I am aware of.  You may have to use the data from the
Merchandise Service set and mix it with the "Keystone on the Ball set." If you
do not have that portion of that set I think I have at least that portion of a
set left so let me know. 
 
<<       Thanks in  advance,
 
         Tom V. >>

Greg Martin 

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:06:56 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Details for PRR X40 60' Merchandise Serv & Auto box

Tom,
Without digging around in the basement, I think those auto car ends are from
the X28 kit, which makes it about X29 size. I've put one together (the X28,
that is) and think it may be too narrow and too "old" looking for your 60'
car. (Come to think of it, there's an Empire City model of that car down there
too, some place). I know it isn't tall enough, but you maybe could doctor that
up. In any event, I wonder if Gloor Craft may have an end you could use?
BP

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From: ODyard@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 06:33:00 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/04/98

In a message dated 12/4/98 1:32:55 AM EST, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

> Good photo shot.  If memory serves, the coaling tower is off screen to
>  the left (west).  Pedestrian bridge for the workers in shown in lower
>  center coming from the town and over the remaining tracks.  Looks like
>  room for about eight tracks under the bridge.  How many were there?  Note
>  the pile of cabese on the tracks to the right.  These were discussed on
>  this list a month or so ago.  Was there a transfer table in that
>  rectangular area to the left of the right hand building?  Lines to the
>  right went to Lock Haven then Williamsport, Sunbury, and Harrisburg.
>  Lines to the left to Buffalo.
>  Roy Breon
>  Pittsford, Ny
Sir,
To add to your last sentance:
Lines to the left went to Buffalo AND ERIE. A considerable amount of traffic
went to and from Erie via Renovo.

Don Murphy, Recreating operations on the Renovo Division in 1946

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:27:59 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: [PRR] Bowser T-1/Helix humper/Slipping

Hi All,

I took a careful look at the Alco Models Helix Humper for the Bowser T-1 as
shown in the latest MR and there are some interesting observations.  There
appears to be  new set of frames, which are articulated.  The set uses the
same boiler top screws for mounting as the original mototrs.  In addition,
there is no connection between the shafts of the two motors.  Unless these
motors are very well balanced (and Helix Humper motors are pretty good)
they will start at different voltages resulting in one set of drivers
slipping (VERY PROTOTYPIC!).

Yesterday, I heard the neatest idea on the LDSIG list with respect to this
(articulated engine slipping).  TWO DCC decoders, one for each motor, with
the front motor set with slightly less momentum on acceleration.  Unless
you have a very light hand on the throttle, you will slip with the front
drivers.  Note that you need only have one fancy decoder (sound, lights
etc), and that the second decoder could be VERY basic, adding only about
$20 to the total package cost.  Both decoders can be controlled from a
single address as a consist.  I'm loving this!  A word of warning to the
PRRMO operators...watch out if I bring my T-1 to a meet!!!!!!!<G>  With
sound, EVERYONE will know when you spin the wheels ("MORE SAND!")

Finally, an update on my (lack) of progress on a rigid frame for the T-1.
I had created a rigid frame using the Bowser components, that Liberty was
offering, however there wasn't a lot of interest (and little PR from them).
I subsequently created a frame that would eliminate the boiler top screws
(butt ugly IMHO), however when cast in pewter it wasn't strong enough to
support the weight of the shell!  I have back tracked and am fabricating a
frame in brass, that will use can motors, flywheels and NWSL gears.  Hey,
it means I get a nice drill press for Christmas <G>!  I'll keep you posted

Happy Hogging
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and
Director, Nucleic Acid Services
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:26:23 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (4)

Dave,
When we come to the PRR narrow gauge lines around Dayton, my job got harder.
Maybe it's because what we would see circa 1940 or 1960 or 1970 was bare
remnants of the original physical plant.  Maybe it's because there were fewer
trains to photograph, so we spent less time on them.  And then again maybe
it's because their history was so chaotic and messy.

Our objective is deceptively simple.  We would like to describe the right of
way of the three puny Pennsy tracks that came together at HEMPSTEAD (Hempstead
Road) in what is now Kettering OH.  These light-railed single tracks departed
a wye there and went 
1) Downtown (northwest) to Dayton Union Station.
2) Straight north to CLEMENT YARD.
3) Due south to Lytle OH  
However, in order to make sense of those few miles of Pennsy track, and their
relationship to other tracks in Dayton and Cincinnati, we need to examine
their history.  That's what we're going to do here in part 4.  It's
complicated, but also frankly a wild story.  

I'd like you to note that I am leaning heavily here on five sources:
1) Pennsylvania Railroad Western Region (Employee) Timetable No. 5, in effect
Oct 30, 1966.
2) John Rehor's The Nickel Plate Story published by Kalmbach.  It contains
much that's helpful in understanding Ohio narrow gauge.
3) John Hauck's Narrow Gauge in Ohio: the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern
Railway, published by Pruett but now being pursued by collector$ <G>.
4) Mike Walker's Railroad Atlas of North America (Great Lakes East volume)
published by Steam Powered Video 1996.
5) Various Internet postings by Tom Vondruska, the PRR Lines West wizard of
Yellow Springs OH.  Tom and I share a passion for PRR Lines West of
Pittsburgh, and he's currently working on the Lines West Fan Fest to meet in
Xenia next April.  Tom has been willing to get down and dig out info, and
keeps me honest (Thanks, Tom).

And now:
THE NARROW GAUGE CRAZE
Most people with any interest in trains are aware of the 3-foot gauge tracks
in Colorado, remnants of an extensive Rio Grande narrow gauge network.  But
from 1876 to 1883, narrow gauge construction was widespread in the central US.
One projected three-foot network laid track from Toledo to Texas.  A major
component of this net, the Toledo, Cincinnati, and St. Louis (TC&StL), came
through Dayton, and so the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern started building
north from Cincinnati to meet it in 1880.
The CL&N
I'll leave the early story of the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern's life to John
Hauck's book.  It leads you through the various name changes and financial
panics along the way.  Let's just say the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern
arrived a little north of Lebanon OH at a point called DODDS, in Warren
County, by 1882.
CONNECTING THE CL&N with LEBANON JUNCTION
By 1881, it was decided to start building south toward Cincinnati, starting at
the narrow gauge TC&StL Southeastern Division between Dayton and Xenia.  The
Southeastern was the predecessor of the B&O Wellston Subdivision.  The new
line branched off at "Shakertown" (soon called LEBANON JUNCTION), and headed
south through Beavertown, Centerville, and Lytle to DODDS.  To say the
construction on this line was flimsy would be to compliment it; later
operations proved it to be inadequate and in bad weather sometimes impassable.

This 16.96 mile stretch was leased to and operated by the CL&N, with 6 miles
of trackage rights over the Southeastern Division to its (the?) Dayton
station.  CL&N stations shown on a map of the period in the Hauck book include
- Dayton (is this the 1865 Dayton Union Station?)
- Highlands (probably at Clement)
- Lebanon Junction 
- Highland (I don't know why the near-duplication)
- Centerville
- Lytle
- Ridgeville (only place I've seen this name)
- Dodds
The poor track caused many misadventures, particularly when the CL&N was
trying to bring coal into Cincinnati.  A panic in 1883 caused reorganization
of the TC&StL.  Because of this, the Southeastern division became the Dayton &
Ironton, and was standard-gauged in 1887 (it later became part of the CH&D and
wound up B&O before 1925).

When the CL&N lost their 3-foot connection into Dayton, they stopped operating
the DL&C line north of DODDS, and LEBANON was really the CL&N's north end for
several years.

The Dayton Lebanon & Cincinnati Railroad (organized 1889) and predecessors
were owner of the orphan line from Dodds to LEBANON JUNCTION during this time,
having neither built nor operated it.  In 1891, the DL&C standard-gauged its
own 16.96-mile line.  In 1892, the DL&C owners leased the CL&N track Lebanon
to Dodds.  By 1893 DL&C had standard-gauged the leased track into Lebanon, and
was running trains between Lebanon and Lebanon Junction.  BTW, the name that
year for the Wellston Subdivision was "Dayton Fort Wayne & Chicago".      
The DL&C GOES TO TOWN (DAYTON)

Recognizing that Lebanon Junction was not a great terminus, the DL&C started
planning an entrance of their own to Dayton, plus collecting land for terminal
facilities on the east bank of the Miami.  It was decided to build from
HEMPSTEAD through Beavertown and then down to National Cash Register.
Although the line was going to be standard gauge, the grade down into Dayton
was as severe as narrow gauge practice (3%?).

Construction finally started in 1902, but franchise rights in Dayton were
delayed.  Tom V. notes that in 1908, delays in completion of the DL&C to NCR
sparked a rather amusing feud between NCR founder John Patterson and Dayton
Daily News Publisher (later Ohio governor and 1920 Democratic presidential
candidate) James M. Cox.  For a while, Patterson closed NCR to have more time
to spend on his suits against Cox.

Finally, crews dug out "the big cut" through the hill north of Patterson Road.
Trains were finally running to the Brown Street depot at NCR in 1910.  The
University of Dayton was also within sight of this depot.  The DL&C started
doing a very lively commute business with trains that ran in from Centerville.
In fact, the DL&C never had locomotive shops in Dayton, because shops were at
Centerville.

The last 1.54 miles to the DL&C's Washington Street Depot was opened in
1912.After less than a year, the DL&C became Dayton's emergency lifeline in
the March 1913 flood.  This flood was Dayton's worst ever, and was aggravated
by a fast thaw, heavy rains, and a reservoir from canal days that burst open
(sounds the openers at Johnstown).  This flood cut Dayton off from the Pennsy
(and all other railroads using water level approaches); similar flood
conditions wreaked havoc with Panhandle routes everywhere east through
Zanesville and Coshocton.  The flood rose March 24, with the first relief
train arriving from Cincinnati on the 26th.  By the morning of the 28th,
sufficient provisions were on hand for all the flood refugees.   Subsequently,
the Big Four and the Pennsy used the DL&C to run trains between Cincinnati and
Dayton until the waters receded after April 1.  On most lines, normal service
had been restored after 2½ weeks.

THE PENNSY TAKES OVER
Back in 1894, the CL&N standard-gauged or dual-gauged all its road between
Lebanon and Cincinnati.  In 1896, the PCC&StL (Panhandle) acquired the CL&N.
The PCC&StL was of course PRR's affiliate for "Lines Southwest of Pittsburgh"
as the Pennsy put it.  CL&N remained as the onsite operating company for 30
years, and even absorbed the Middletown & Cincinnati, a line that gave PRR
access to Armco Steel at Middletown OH.  This M&C line was a major traffic
generator, and crossed the CL&N at HAGEMAN, south of LEBANON.

After Dayton's March 1913 flood, Pennsy officials became interested in control
of the DL&C.  They used the CL&N as their agent:
1) The CL&N was operating through to Dayton over the DL&C in the summer of
1914.
2) the CL&N's purchase contract for the DL&C was December 14, 1914
3) A contract to operate the DL&C came four days later.

In 1925 the PRR did some corporate housecleaning, and the CL&N (including M&C
and DL&C) got consolidated with some other Lines West cats-and-dogs into the
Pennsylvania, Ohio & Detroit RR.  It's useful to realize that the PO&D was a
financier's paper railroad; its various components weren't operated together,
and many of them so far as I know didn't touch physically.  Hauck says the
PO&D consolidation agreement was dated June 7, 1924, but it didn't receive ICC
approval until December 10, 1925 

"The confusion over dates may stem from the difference between the
Announcement of an intent to buy and final ICC or Public Utilities Commission
Approval of the purchase" … Tom Vondruska, Lines West Fanatic.

THE END OF THE DL&C (UGLY)
Through the 20s, there was commuter service from Centerville and also from
Lebanon.  But in the 1930s, business declined rapidly.  Passenger service was
discontinued in 1934.  The track between Lytle and Lebanon was used for car
storage in the early 30s, was abandoned in 1939, and was ripped up in 1952.
None of the DL&C track was included in Penn Central's 1970 timetable No. 4, so
while NOT out of service in the early seventies, remaining track was being
treated as industrial spurs.  I'm not sure when Lytle-to-Dayton or Hempstead-
to-Delco were lifted, but they were gone before 1996, and probably much
earlier in the Conrail era.
 
Now that we've examined all the narrow gauge history, next time we'll walk the
standard-gauged rails.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fire guts last remaining structure of Pullman works
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 98 08:10:09 -0500


The shame of it is, the history of the Pullman Company is on Trains
Unlimited tonight.

                                                Brian Brandt

=======

Apparently not ALL of the history;  unless they re-edited the show last night
;-)

regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:39:17 -0600
Subject: [PRR] Humor re: continuing threads



        Some of our threads have run on and on.   I found this item
humorous
and very descriptive of these threads that get off topic.  Dont know if
this has been posted here or not

        Randy Williamson
        ____________________________________________________

        >Q: How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take
        >to change a light bulb?
        >
        >A: 1,331:
        >
        >
        >1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list
        >that the light bulb has been changed
        >
        >14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and
        >how the light bulb could have been changed differently.
        >
        >7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
        >
        >27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about
        >changing light bulbs.
        >
        >53 to flame the spell checkers
        >
        >156 to write to the list administrator complaining about
        >the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this
        >mail list.
        >
        >41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.
        >
        >109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to
        >please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb
        >
        >203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar,
        >alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs
        >be stopped.
        >
        >111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are
        >all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are**
        >relevant to this mail list.
        >
        >306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is
        >superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of
        >light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands
        >are faulty.
        >
        >27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different
        >light bulbs
        >
        >14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to
        >post corrected URLs.
        >
        >3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are
        >relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to
        >this list.
        >
        >33 to quote all posts to date, including all headers and
        >footers, and then add "Me Too."
        >
        >12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because
        >they cannot handle the light bulb controversey.
        >
        >19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."
        >
        >4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
        >
        >1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
        >
        >47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was
        >meant for, leave it here.
        >
        >143 votes for alt.lite.bulb.
        >







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:55:17 -0600
Subject: [PRR] Minitrix availability
From: locoshop@juno.com

Hello all,

I have just purchased a pair of GHQ L1 conversion kits and the Kato N
scale Mikes to go with.  Is there any pointers on these locomotive and
their assembly?  Also wondering about the current availability of
Minitrix K4s and I1s?  Are they still being made or are they something I
must look for elsewhere?  Thanks for any help out there. Live long and
Pennsy (or is that prosper?).   ;-)

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:08:22 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (5)


Dave,
This is part 5 of the Panhandle in Dayton.  We're talking about PRR's former
narrow-gauge properties, as they would be found in the twenties through the
seventies:

THE CLEMENT-HEMPSTEAD INDUSTRIAL
The 1966 ETT shows a Clement-Hempstead Industrial Track.  I'll call it the
"Clement" for short.  By the seventies, this humble little bit of jointed rail
looked like it was almost gone; it's peculiar to realize that the north end
still exists in the 90s.

CLEMENT (MP 0)
In the 1966 ETT, the "Clement" is a simple entry; it runs from CLEMENT (MP 0)
to HEMPSTEAD (MP 5.1).  A 1917 valuation map in Narrow Gauge in Ohio terms
CLEMENT a junction with the "PCC&StL RR, Cincinnati Division", citing the
Little Miami as a predecessor.

In the period I knew it, the Clement line was an extension to the south of one
of Clement Yard's east-west body tracks.  As previously mentioned, it was
paralleled south for some distance by B&O's Wellston Subdivision, also a
former narrow gauge road.  Thinking about the PRR overpass at CLEMENT, I have
to wonder if the stone abutments in place now were put up for the original
span over TC&StL narrow gauge tracks.  That would explain the substandard
clearance on the B&O in the 60s. 

LEBANON JUNCTION/Shakertown
Obviously, this point lay a little west of Woodman Drive and north of
Patterson Road. Once an important point, and still found on the 1917 map, it
didn't even rate a listing in the 1966 ETT.

As we know, LEBANON JUNCTION was once the CL&N's outlet to the rest of the
narrow gauge world.   That outlet was via the line we know as the B&O Wellston
Subdivision (there is a Wellston vaguely near Jackson OH).  Just to add to the
merriment, that 1925 map of Dayton rail facilities tags it the "Wellington
Branch".  This latter name is probably an innocent mistake by the consulting
engineers who drafted the map; their address is New York City.

The Wellston Sub was standard-gauged before the DL&C or the CL&N, cutting them
off.  At some period before 1917, the PRR extended standard-gauge track along
the west side of the B&O to connect LEBANON JUNCTION to CLEMENT.

DELCO PRODUCTS, KETTERING
Once the Wellston Subdivision peeled off for Xenia, the Clement line continued
south past a coal pocket on the north side of Patterson Road, a Hilltop Cement
plant along Woodman Drive, and GM's Delco plant in Kettering.  Delco Plants
10, 11, and 12 sat on a large property on Woodman Drive, and the Sub passed
through it, with switching included steel inbound and scrap gondolas outbound.
Most of this GM plant's output (auto shock absorbers, electric motors for
Frigidaire appliances built downtown or in Moraine) went out by truck; I'm not
sure how the exhaust fans and dynamic brake fans they built for every EMD
diesel locomotive were shipped.

Normal power on this branch in the 50s and 60s was the PRR's usual Fairbanks-
Morse switchers.  But about 1956, there was an open house held at Delco for
employees' families, and the Pennsy provided an engine and some gons to ride
in (I said this was a large property).  Some PRR official was paying
attention, because the power showing off to all those GM employees that day
was an EMD Geep.  In fact since it was pretty clean, even up close, I wonder
if it was one of the recently acquired Phase III GP-9's.  Yes, I was there
that day and rode one of those clean (!) Pennsy gons, so I guess I can claim
"mileage" on the Clement :^).   

Sometime in the 90s, GM accessory/parts divisions began to use the name
Delphi, so I'm sure that's the name on the gate now.  Maps lead me to believe
that, as of 1996, track ends here.

South of Delphi/Delco, the Clement crossed Dorothy Lane, running on the west
side of what became Rikes Kettering shopping center (bet it says Lazarus now).
I believe it once served an E.F. Macdonald warehouse here, but when was the
last time you heard of Top Value trading stamps (or any other trading
stamps?).

HEMPSTEAD (MP 5.1)
Joined the Dayton-Lytle Industrial Track (see below).  End of the Clement-
Hempstead Industrial Track.
TRACING THE DAYTON-LYTLE INDUSTRIAL TRACK 

DAYTON (MP 0)
The north end of the DL&C was connected to the east-west Dayton Union Station
trackage after PRR control, and before 1920.  This curve (onto the Miami River
bridge) was originally so sharp it had to be given guardrails to prevent
derailments.   By the 70s a newer alignment was still sharp but without
guardrails.  For some reason, in 1966, the ETT prohibits GF28a's (U28C's,
which were brand new) on this curve, although IIRC their trimount trucks were
the same as on U25C's.  

DAYTON WASHINGTON STREET (MP 0.8)
Along the levee, paralleling the river and at 90 degrees to the DUS
orientation, CL&N had yard tracks, and a freight house of recognizable PRR
design at Washington Street.  Once upon a time there was a passenger station
at Washington Street, and a frame freight house farther north.  Some or all
this property was acquired from "the Longworth estate"; and the Dayton Power
and Light's Longworth Street Steam Station sits just east along the south side
of Union Station.  DP&L unloaded lots of L&N hoppers there.

The DL&C then followed the river south, passing the Montgomery County
Fairgrounds and swinging east across the abandoned Miami & Erie Canal and
Stewart Street on its way to cross Brown Street.

NATIONAL (MP 2.2)
Shown on the 1917 valuation map.  National is the station at Brown Street, and
named for NCR.  In Tom V's words, south of these tracks was the national
headquarters and primary manufacturing works of the National Cash Register Co.
NCR was Dayton's premier industry, and its campus was huge.  "The Cash"
occupied dozens of buildings, and also generated so much freight traffic
(lumber, coal, hardware items, fasteners, machining metals, coil stock, paper
and supplies) that they had their own steam locomotives to switch the plant.  

To keep the plant buildings from being dirtied by smoke, NCR's 0-4-0's were
"fireless cookers". Instead of a firebox and boiler, these engines had a big
insulated steam tank, which could power their two small cylinders for several
hours between recharging at the NCR steam plant. The "Dayton," the "South
Park", and the "Rubicon" were built by Lima Locomotive Works.  The Rubicon is
preserved in the museum at Carillon Park.  I think I vaguely remember a plant
diesel switcher in the 50/60s.

Today, most all of NCR's beautiful gray multistory factory buildings have been
razed.  The mechanical cash register was replaced by electronic devices, and
NCR's machine shops died.  Of course, north and east of the tracks here is the
University of Dayton campus, also served by the station that used to stand
here.  

DAYTON STATE HOSPITAL
This large mental institution on Wayne Avenue had a spur that came off the
main and charged west up a hill at some crazy grade, crossing Irving Avenue
and busy Wilmington Pike in the bargain.  Probably hauled coal in for the
power plant (not visible from the street; we didn't try to get in, and hoped
they didn't try to get out).  

An old Dayton way of saying "you're driving me crazy" is "You're gonna put me
in Wayne Avenue".  There's something strange here - Dayton - Mad River flows
in - General "Mad" Anthony Wayne - Wayne Avenue - the mental hospital.  Oh,
well - back to railroading…

The DL&C ran in a deep cut along here; the top of the hard grade out of the
Miami Valley was still some distance south.   Patterson Road was the only
grade-separated crossing that I know.  From its bridge, you could see the
Lytle sink away to the north and around a curve.

GENTILE AIR FORCE DEPOT
By now, the ridiculous grade out of the Miami Valley has flattened out.  This
military warehouse facility was later renamed the Defense Electronics Supply
Depot (DESC).  In true U.S.Air Force tradition, it was originally named for
Don Gentile (pronounced Gen-tee-lee), an Army Air Force pilot who was killed
in or before WWII.  I think I remember an Air Force blue GE switcher among the
warehouse buildings, visible from the road.

BEAVERTOWN
An old settlement southeast of Dayton on the Wilmington pike.  Here the DL&C
crossed Dorothy Lane. 

PASADENA (MP 5.6)
Apparently, Pasadena was a suburban stop on the south edge of Beavertown.
Although there hasn't been passenger service here since the 1930's, a brown
brick station survives on the east side of the tracks, heavily remodeled to
become part of a lumberyard.  Now I understand the lumberyard has closed, and
the future of the little station is in question.

OAKDALE (MP 6.5)
Now a neighborhood in Kettering, it was a commuter stop in 1926.

HEMPSTEAD (MP 7.1)
Going on south, the line vaguely paralleled Wilmington Pike and served at
least one more good-sized lumberyard until it reached HEMPSTEAD in the suburb
of Oakdale.  In the 70s, the junction at Hempstead Road was just a single
switch.  But in 1925 it was a wye.  HEMPSTEAD has now disappeared under "the
present 130+ acre site of the Kettering Meijer store on the Southwest Corner
of Stroop Road and Wilmington Pike" (Tom V.).

OAK RIDGE (MP 8.6)
1926 suburban stop

CENTERVILLE (MP 10.9)
Once upon a time, the DL&C had its roundhouse and shops at Centerville; this
probably made excellent sense with the commute trains stored here overnight.
By the 30s, it was already clear that the line south of here was an albatross.
Tom V cites a grain elevator and feed mill on Franklin Street (Centerville
Station Road in Greene County) and limestone quarries around Centerville &
Lytle.

By 1970 the line was in deep trouble.  One year, the PRR billed $100,000 in
freight at Centerville.  But the taxes were $200,000.

MANOR (MP 13.6)
Don't ask me.  This is a surprise, taken off the 1917 valuation map, but also
on the 1926 timetable.
 
LYTLE (MP 15.7)
In the late 60s, the station was long gone, but the Everett Early grain
elevator was still served by a rail spur.  I believe track ended pretty
quickly south of the elevator; the line south from here to Lebanon was
abandoned in 1939 and ripped out in 1952.  

EDGEWOOD (MP 16.8)
1926 stop.

VENABLE (MP 18.3)
1926 stop

KITCHENER (about MP 19.8)
Shown on the 1917 valuation map, but not the 1926 timetable.

DODDS (MP 20.7)
Original end of the DL&C line; once home to canneries.

THE COURT STREET SECONDARY TRACK
I think we can detail the Court Street Secondary at a later time; it really
belongs in a discussion of Cincinnati.  But that's another story….

This winds up the Dayton narrow gauge story.  I thought we'd be done by now.  
However, new info found and received significantly adds to PRR/Panhandle in
Dayton (3), and so a number (6) is coming to organize that.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West 




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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:02:11 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: [MEMRA] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (4)

In a message dated 12/4/98 10:37:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
RickTipton@AOL.COM writes:

<< Various Internet postings by Tom Vondruska, the PRR Lines West wizard of
 Yellow Springs, OH.  Tom and I share a passion for PRR Lines West of
 Pittsburgh, and he's currently working on the Lines West Fan Fest to meet in
 Xenia next April.  Tom has been willing to get down and dig out info, and
 keeps me honest (Thanks, Tom).
  >>
Armed with his trusty PRR Columbus Division ETTs from 1951 and 1953 (Sept. 27,
1953, the first after the elimination of passenger service direct to
Springfield and the abandonment of the CL&N between Lytle and Dodds in Warren
birth of the Lytle Secondary), Buckeye Region ETTs from 1959 and 1961 (my
Western Region ETT from 1967, the last PRR timetable covering the old
Panhandle from the banks of the Scioto River to the Mississippi River (that's
Columbus to St. Louis for you geographically challenged readers) has  been
donated to the Greene County, Ohio, Historical Society)

<< To say the construction on this line was flimsy would be to compliment it;
later
operations proved it to be inadequate and in bad weather sometimes
impassable.>>

	According to Hauck's book, they cut construction cost by eliminating a
ballasted roadbed. It rained the day of the first trip to Dayton in January
1887. The train took 61 minutes (including stops) to go the 36 miles from the
CL&N Court Street Station in Cincinnati to Lebanon. Traveling the next 24
miles took THREE DAYS as rails shifted on the sodden ground.
	It was a portion of this track, a constant maintenance headache, that the PRR
abandoned in 1953.

<<For a while, Patterson closed NCR to have more time to spend on his suits
against Cox.>>
	This story is toooo good, I can't help myself in his book, The Great
Eccentrics, Dayton at the turn of the (20th) Century and the Inventing of
America, author Mark Berstein writes that Patterson abruptly dropped his suits
against Cox following a deposition session  which ended suddenly when Cox's
attorneys asked questions about gifts Patterson made to union leaders shortly
before a threatened strike was dropped and gifts to a federal judge shortly
before the judge ruled in NCR's favor. Not only did Patterson drop the libel
suits but he paid all of Cox's legal bills arising from them. 

<<This flood cut Dayton off from the Pennsy
(and all other railroads using water level approaches); similar flood
conditions wreaked havoc with Panhandle routes everywhere east through
Zanesville and Coshocton.  The flood rose March 24, with the first relief
train arriving from Cincinnati on the 26th.  By the morning of the 28th,
sufficient provisions were on hand for all the flood refugees.>>

	The storm system parked itself over the Campbell hills between Dayton,
Columbus and Lima so flooding occurred on rivers flowing into the Ohio River
AND Lake Erie. Flooding occurred in the Muskingum, Scioto, Hocking, Miami
(Little and Great), White and Wabash Rivers flowing south and the Sandusky,
Auglaize, St. Mary and Maumee rivers flowing north to Lake Erie so both the
Fort Wayne and Panhandle were closed. It was the only event to stop all
traffic between Pittsburgh and Chicago in 99 years. Traffic stopped from
Ulrich to Logansport and Terre Haute. Hardest the was the Zanesville branch
which largely vanished.
	The Fort Wayne was closed from March 25 to 28. That the Panhandle, with miles
of track that simply vanished under the flood waters, was able to reestablish
direct through service (albeit on a lot of temporary track) to St. Louis in
only 2 1/2 weeks is a testament to the determination and skill of the Pennsy
engineers and crew. It took several years for the Panhandle to return to
normal and physically and financially.
	The CL&N was the only north-south railroad in the flood zone that did not run
along a river bottom, but the divide between the Great Miamii and Little Miami
rivers. In 1884 and 1937 the line was the only dry land route into Cincinnati
during Ohio River floods.

s.  I'm not sure when Lytle-to-Dayton or Hempstead-
to-Delco were lifted, but they were gone before 1996, and probably much
earlier in the Conrail era.

	It didn't make it into Conrail. NCR closed its manufacturing operations in
Dayton by 1974. All rails but Delco-Clement were gone by 1985.


Tom V.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:16:18 -0600
Subject: [PRR] Fw: Implementation Update, 12/4/1998
From: locoshop@juno.com

Hello all,

I forwarded this portion of the NS Implementation update since it has to
do with PRR.  Might beof some use to some.

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com

Conrail Heritage
	Martin W. Clement proved to be one of the greatest leaders of the 
Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR), a Conrail predecessor line, and his 
innovative thinking and personable character left a mark on the entire 
railroad industry.
	As a surveyor's assistant in 1901 for the United New Jersey and 
Canal Company, a PRR predecessor, he helped complete PRR's New York 
tunnel extension. This project provided a direct rail link between the 
old terminus at Jersey City and the magnificent new Pennsylvania 
Station in lower Manhattan. Featuring twin tunnels under the Hudson 
River and electrically propelled trains, it was the greatest railroad 
improvement project of its day. 
	After the completion of the tunnel project, Clement was 
repeatedly promoted. In his first promotion to track supervisor for 
PRR's headquarters, he designed a new lantern that was more convenient 
and also safer for trackmen to carry. The design eventually made its 
way to railroads throughout the nation. Clement continued to rise 
through the ranks as superintendent, general manager, vice president - 
operations, vice president and finally president and chairman of the 
PRR.
	Throughout his career, Clement worked diligently to reduce 
operating and maintenance costs. He also was known for his lack of 
pretension, as he would stop to help an overly busy ticket counter, or 
don a waiter's jacket to help a shorthanded wait staff on the ferry 
ride to work.
	Clement was personally involved in all aspects of the railroad 
throughout his career, leaving an imprint on the PRR that lasted to the 
end of its corporate life and beyond to the PRR's successors.

------------------
Norfolk Southern Corporation
http://www.nscorp.com



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Rail Classics" <railclas@erols.com>
Subject: [PRR] 
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:25:58 -0500

Hello PRR Fans;

Just a quick note of interest.

The RAIL CLASSICS  R-50b Express Refrigerator Cars in 3 versions are now in
stock.

Also in stock are 2D-P5 trucks, in Friction, Roller Bearing and Hyatt Roller
Bearing.

See your dealer for these fine models and trucks.

Check out our web site (www.railclassics.com) for updates on the X-40 Box
Cars, Z-74 Business

Cars and the E-6s Steam Locomotives.

EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:22:16 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] Humor re: continuing threads
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

Now that WAS funny!!

SGT York

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:04:50 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (5)

In a message dated 12/4/98 8:20:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
RickTipton@aol.com writes:

<< South of Delphi/Delco, the Clement crossed Dorothy Lane, running on the
west
 side of what became Rikes Kettering shopping center (bet it says Lazarus
now).
 I believe it once served an E.F. Macdonald warehouse here, but when was the
 last time you heard of Top Value trading stamps (or any other trading
 stamps?).
 
 HEMPSTEAD (MP 5.1)
 Joined the Dayton-Lytle Industrial Track (see below).  End of the Clement-
 Hempstead Industrial Track. >>

Rick, 
	I'm impressed that you remembered not to capitalize the D in Macdonald. That
was long a trap for newbie Dayton copy editors. And the Rike's was a Lazarus
store until earlier this year when it was closed after 37 years of business. I
think it's now one of Dayton's growing supply of see-through stores.
	If memory serves me right there was a large lumber yard on Clement on the
north side of Stroop Road just recently torn down for a strip mall on the
northwest corner of Stoop and Wilmington. I remember going there with my
father once back in Fairbanks Morse days. I know that Hempstead was just south
of Stroop and west of Wilmington Pike on the Meijer's site because there were
two closely spaced but divergent tracks to cross on Stroop Road once you
passed west of the Wilmington interchange.

	Uh, Rick, does anybody have a roster for those Xenia FMs. I'm detailing a
Cary body as an H10-44 and am about ready to convert the Walther's H10/12 into
a true post September 1952 Pennsy H12-44.

<< Once upon a time there was a passenger station
at Washington Street, and a frame freight house farther north.  Some or all
this property was acquired from "the Longworth estate"; and the Dayton Power
and Light's Longworth Street Steam Station sits just east along the south side
of Union Station.  DP&L unloaded lots of L&N hoppers there.>>

Hauck's book show pictures of the passenger Station with an elevated platform
and a through girder overpass crossing Washington Street at the east end of
the Washington Street bridge.

<<The DL&C then followed the river south, passing the Montgomery County
Fairgrounds and swinging east across the abandoned Miami & Erie Canal and
Stewart Street on its way to cross Brown Street.>>

	After the 1913 flood, as part of the Miami Conservancy District flood control
plan, the Miami Erie Canal was filled in and Patterson Boulevard was built
atop its route. The bridge that carried the CL&N from the levee across South
Patterson Blvd. onto the NCR property still stands carrying nothing but weeds
across the traffic. Classic Pennsy Keystones with intertwined PRR are cast
into the center pier carrying the two plate girder spans.

<<DAYTON STATE HOSPITAL
This large mental institution on Wayne Avenue had a spur that came off the
main and charged west up a hill at some crazy grade, crossing Irving Avenue
and busy Wilmington Pike in the bargain.  Probably hauled coal in for the
power plant (not visible from the street; we didn't try to get in, and hoped
they didn't try to get out).>>

	And probably food or something else that was carried in box cars. For years
I've been trying to find news stories of when a box car spotted at the
hospital slipped its brakes and free wheeled across Wilmington Pike, Alberta
Street and Brown Streets. in the middle of a weekday afternoon.
	A PRR employee jumped onto the box car from some line side structure and
managed to stop the car with the hand brake before it crossed either Stewart
Street or Washington Street. 

<<Air Force blue GE switcher among the warehouse buildings, visible from the
road.>>

	Only if it was a 70-tonner or larger. There were three GE 44-tonners assigned
to Wright-Patterson up until they phased out Wright-Patt's railroad department
in the early 1990s. I remember the engine assigned to DESC as either a Baldwin
or ALCO switcher, at least during early 1960s. Pop started there in early
1962.

<< it was already clear that the line south of here was an albatross.
Tom V cites a grain elevator and feed mill on Franklin Street (Centerville
Station Road in Greene County) and limestone quarries around Centerville &
Lytle.>>

		Part supposition on my part, part Hauck. A business calling itself the
"Centerville Mill" is located between the CL&N right-of-way and Clyo Road
which the line parallels just to the west in Centerville) on the north side of
Franklin Street. Today it sells lawn and garden items and feed for the Polo
and Horsey set that live in the pocket estates along the creek hollows along
the southern edge of the outwash from the Gllaciated till plains in northern
Montgomery and Greene Counties. Its business appears similar to Daytona Mills
along the Panhandle Passenger line at North Fairfield Road in Beavercreek
(Zimmerman in Rick Tipton's pre-city days). 
	In his discussion of this line in Narrow Gauge in Ohio, Hauck cites quarries
producing building grade limestone south of Centerville as an inducement for
one of the DL&C's pre-PRR owners.

Hmm, new information. I can't wait

Tom V.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR] Coaling Towers
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:42:51 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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The coaling tower is to the left. The main road that went throught there =
was  PA RT 120. Where it went by the coal tower and up over the railroad =
it had two wicked 90 degree turns. Many a truck and car hit the side of =
that bridge. Sometime in the 70's PennDot rebuilt the bridge and took =
out the turns. Too bad, I loved the nostalage. There was a westbound =
track and an eastbound track then a yard track. The three ran in front =
of the hump. Then there was I believe eleven yard leads on the west yard =
and 20 tracks on the east yard where the hump was. Westbound the trains =
ran to Buffalo or Erie. Conrail sold the Erie line and though they were =
considering selling the Buffalo line from Driftwood up I understand that =
with the merger, the sell has been put on hold because Canadien Pacific =
wants to run unit trains down through there. The next time I get into =
Renovo I will take a picture of the coal tower and scan them and post =
them for all of you. There is a transfer table between the car shops and =
those coabooses are still there, about 40 of them. There is also a PRR =
supt. coach. Supposedly the shops were sold to some outfit that is going =
to rebuild damaged freight cars there. Won't be alot of jobs but at =
least there will still be railroading there. That bridge is were the =
lead engine would stop to exchange crews of the eastbound daily =
passenger when it would run. There was maybe only three or four coaches =
but many baggage and mailexpress cars. Loved to see those E8's run.

On Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:28 PM  Roy K Breon  Writes


Good photo shot.  If memory serves, the coaling tower is off screen to
the left (west).  Pedestrian bridge for the workers in shown in lower
center coming from the town and over the remaining tracks.  Looks like
room for about eight tracks under the bridge.  How many were there?  =
Note
the pile of cabese on the tracks to the right.  These were discussed on
this list a month or so ago.  Was there a transfer table in that
rectangular area to the left of the right hand building?  Lines to the
right went to Lock Haven then Williamsport, Sunbury, and Harrisburg.
Lines to the left to Buffalo.
Roy Breon
Pittsford, NY


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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>The coaling tower is to the =
left. The main=20
road that went throught there was&nbsp; PA RT 120. Where it went by the =
coal=20
tower and up over the railroad it had two wicked 90 degree turns. Many a =
truck=20
and car hit the side of that bridge. Sometime in the 70's PennDot =
rebuilt the=20
bridge and took out the turns. Too bad, I loved the nostalage. There was =
a=20
westbound track and an eastbound track then a yard track. The three ran =
in front=20
of the hump. Then there was I believe eleven yard leads on the west yard =
and 20=20
tracks on the east yard where the hump was. Westbound the trains ran to =
Buffalo=20
or Erie. Conrail sold the Erie line and though they were considering =
selling the=20
Buffalo line from Driftwood up I understand that with the merger, the =
sell has=20
been put on hold because Canadien Pacific wants to run unit trains down =
through=20
there. The next time I get into Renovo I will take a picture of the coal =
tower=20
and scan them and post them for all of you. There is a transfer table =
between=20
the car shops and those coabooses are still there, about 40 of them. =
There is=20
also a PRR supt. coach. Supposedly the shops were sold to some outfit =
that is=20
going to rebuild damaged freight cars there. Won't be alot of jobs but =
at least=20
there will still be railroading there. That bridge is were the lead =
engine would=20
stop to exchange crews of the eastbound daily passenger when it would =
run. There=20
was maybe only three or four coaches but many baggage and mailexpress =
cars.=20
Loved to see those E8's run.</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D3></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>On Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:28 PM&nbsp; Roy K =
Breon&nbsp;=20
Writes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Good photo shot.&nbsp; If memory serves, the coaling tower is off =
screen=20
to<BR>the left (west).&nbsp; Pedestrian bridge for the workers in shown =
in=20
lower<BR>center coming from the town and over the remaining =
tracks.&nbsp; Looks=20
like<BR>room for about eight tracks under the bridge.&nbsp; How many =
were=20
there?&nbsp; Note<BR>the pile of cabese on the tracks to the =
right.&nbsp; These=20
were discussed on<BR>this list a month or so ago.&nbsp; Was there a =
transfer=20
table in that<BR>rectangular area to the left of the right hand =
building?&nbsp;=20
Lines to the<BR>right went to Lock Haven then Williamsport, Sunbury, and =

Harrisburg.<BR>Lines to the left to Buffalo.<BR>Roy Breon<BR>Pittsford,=20
NY<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 06:08:48 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (6) (B&O too)

Dave,
Here's more info and more questions to add to Part 3:

PENNSY AND B&O LINES JUST WEST OF DAYTON

THE DAYTON & UNION
By 1925, the Dayton & Union Railroad, a B&O affiliate, was running on Pennsy
(nee Dayton & Western) rails from Dayton to DODSON OH, where it took its own
rails northwest through Greenville, to a point close to Union City OH, on the
Indiana State line.  At Union City OH/IN, it met the PRR/Panhandle Columbus-
Logansport main, and also the NYC Bee Line main Cleveland-Indianapolis.  

Railfan legend has it that the D&U once had its own main line from Dayton to
Dodson; I have always heard this.  I assumed while writing Part 3 that this
abandoned line was the "Stillwater Branch".  But since, I've found another map
that shows the B&O Stillwater Branch crossing the PRR at (what else?)
STILLWATER, while the D&U is already using the Pennsy.

So the question remains:
1) has the D&U always used PRR/Dayton & Western trackage rights to DODSON?
This sort of case did occur again and again when a line was approaching a town
and encountered a friendly or neutral connection.
2) Did it originally parallel the Dayton & Western closely, and then abandon
that track?  Why haven't we found maps to show this?
3) Did the D&U once get out of Dayton to DODSON by some other route?

BTW, To add to the fun, that "Home Road" branch off the Pennsy at MIAMI CITY
STATION is shown on the 1925 map as a B&O branch.  But map OH-17a in Mike
Walker's atlas shows it as an abandoned PC-ex-PRR branch which went to
Dayton's western perimeter and ended at the "National Military Home".  Did it
change hands after 1925?  Or was this a mistake in the map?

In any case, the branch ran to the "Soldiers Home for Disabled Veterans"
(opened 1867), which became a Veterans Administration Hospital in 1931.
Apparently the Soldiers Home had its own station, which is probably the same
as the "Home Avenue Station" shown in the Dayton photographic history.    

STILLWATER BRANCH
The same Mike Walker OH-17a map of Dayton (1996) shows the Stillwater Branch
crossing the "Home Road" right of way and being abandoned beyond a "Delco
plant".  This end-of-track would be a little north of 3rd Street.  I know this
"Delco" wasn't part of GM Delco Products Division, so is it Delco Moraine
(brake parts), or was the Inland Division (rubber products) renamed?  In any
case, today any of these plants probably have Delphi on the gate.

In the 1880's, the Stillwater Branch was the narrow-gauge Toledo Cincinnati &
St. Louis main line north out of Dayton.  The TC&StL went on north from
STILLWATER,  crossing the NYC/Peoria & Eastern's Springfield-Indianapolis line
at LUDLOW FALLS.  The TC&StL then crossed the PRR/Panhandle Columbus-
Logansport line at Covington OH, possibly under the PRR's two-arch stone
bridge that spans the river there.  Continuing, the TC&StL crossed the NYC Bee
Line at Versailles.  From there, it wandered north through Ohio to DELPHOS,
where it crossed the PRR's Pittsburgh Fort Wayne & Chicago (yes, that's the
route of the Broadway Limited).  Delphos Ohio is significant because it was a
meeting point of several 3-foot-gauge lines, including ones that became the
Clover Leaf (later Nickel Plate).  A map (1889) reproduced in John Hauck's
book confirms this routing of the narrow gauge.  The Stillwater line has
probably carried a number of names over time:
- Toledo Cincinnati & St. Louis (TC&StL map ca. 1883)
- Toledo Delphos & Burlington
- Dayton Fort Wayne & Chicago (1889 narrow gauge)
- Dayton Toledo & Chicago (1917 PRR evaluation map)
- Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton 
- Baltimore & Ohio (1925 Dayton facilities map)

If the Stillwater Branch were the northern outlet for narrow gauge, this would
mean that narrow gauge trains from the north to Xenia or Cincinnati somehow
passed east-west through downtown Dayton until 1893 or so on their way to
LEBANON JUNCTION.  Was there dual gauge track through the old (1865) Dayton
Union Depot?  Now that's an interesting thought! 

WHAT'S IN A NAME?
One of the uglier parts of railroad history is the complicated names that old-
time lines used.  I'm sure these lists of towns were impressive in their day,
but it often makes rail history hard to understand and describe.

Consider some great parallel plays in the names we've dug up in this series:

1A) Toledo Cincinnati & St Louis - narrow gauge in 1880s, served those towns
1B) Pittsburgh Cincinnati & St Louis - 1869 name for PRR's Panhandle lines
from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati or Indianapolis.

OR
2A) Dayton Fort Wayne & Chicago - 1889 narrow gauge line north from Dayton,
just prior to standard-gauging.
2B) Pittsburgh Fort Wayne & Chicago - PRR's main line, Pittsburgh to Chicago.
Route of the Broadway through Ohio and Indiana.
 
OR OF COURSE THE TWO GREAT COMPETITORS
3A) Cleveland Cincinnati Chicago & St Louis - NYC's Big Four,  a group of
lines fanning out southwest from Cleveland.
3A) Pittsburgh Cincinnati Chicago & St Louis - PRR's 1880s-1920 Panhandle,
lines fanning out soutwest from Pittsburgh.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] Re: Greetings and question on OR&W railroad
From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:33:44 EST

Go to your local Borders or Barnes & Noble and take a look at AMERICAN
NARROW GUAGE RAILROADS by Gerge Hilton.

MEA
______________________________
PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY        PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com
Management Services           Telephone 609-683-0356

On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 02:29:32 EST Bill Ensinger <Bill222E@aol.com> writes:
>...
>Would you happen to know anything about the OR&W railroad? It was the
last narrow gage RR in Ohio; closed in Monroe Co in 1931; owned by the
Pennsylvania RR.  If you know anything or places (on the net?) to look,
please let me know....
>
>Thanks for any help.
>
>Bill
>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: DZJN21A@prodigy.com (MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II)
Date: Sat,  5 Dec 1998 22:38:10, -0500
Subject: [PRR] P-5A Construction

Andy and other "Motor Heads" on the list,  I have been toying around 
with constructing a P-5A (4770) in HO. I'm using an old Tyco GG1-?  
and cutting out the center section leaving one side door and window. 
I know this leaves the model a scale 4' shorter than the prototype 
but I can't afford brass and  the resulting shell looks pretty good 
to me. I still need to cut out the screen areas on each side and fine 
sand the joints. Powering this model is proving to be a challenge, I 
have been considering the IHC camelback loco as one possibility with 
the wheels being about the right size and spacing. Anybody have any 
suggestions?   Charlie C.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:43:53 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Towers

Wayne Dibert wrote:
> 
>... The next time I get into Renovo I will take a picture
> of the coal tower and scan them and post them for all of you.
> ...

I have a picture on my PRR P&E/E&P site:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/renovo.htm
-- 
Jerry Shickler
e-mail: geshick@velocity.net

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:17:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Towers

There's been a rash of it recently... which is the only reason I'm
bothering all of you, but can you Outlook users turn off the HTML copy of
your outgoing mail? Seeing what you have to say once is enough, I get it
the first time:-)

-D



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Towers
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:14:01 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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You are right on all accounts. The coaling tower is off to the left =
approximately two hundred yards. I have done a photo study of it if you =
have any great interest. The tower is to be the center piece of the =
economic partnerships "Heritage Park". The walk bridge is below and the =
transfer table is to the left of the right hand building. That puts it =
between the car shops and the passenger car and paint shop. The northern =
end of the right hand building was a wood working shop. By the way it =
looks as if they may fire up that transfer table again.=20
Greg Stone=20
PRRT&HS member
interested in any information on the Renovo Yards
Gas@fastinet.net
=20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Wayne Dibert <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net>
    To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
    Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 8:40 PM
    Subject: [PRR] Coaling Towers
   =20
   =20
    The coaling tower is to the left. The main road that went throught =
there was  PA RT 120. Where it went by the coal tower and up over the =
railroad it had two wicked 90 degree turns. Many a truck and car hit the =
side of that bridge. Sometime in the 70's PennDot rebuilt the bridge and =
took out the turns. Too bad, I loved the nostalage. There was a =
westbound track and an eastbound track then a yard track. The three ran =
in front of the hump. Then there was I believe eleven yard leads on the =
west yard and 20 tracks on the east yard where the hump was. Westbound =
the trains ran to Buffalo or Erie. Conrail sold the Erie line and though =
they were considering selling the Buffalo line from Driftwood up I =
understand that with the merger, the sell has been put on hold because =
Canadien Pacific wants to run unit trains down through there. The next =
time I get into Renovo I will take a picture of the coal tower and scan =
them and post them for all of you. There is a transfer table between the =
car shops and those coabooses are still there, about 40 of them. There =
is also a PRR supt. coach. Supposedly the shops were sold to some outfit =
that is going to rebuild damaged freight cars there. Won't be alot of =
jobs but at least there will still be railroading there. That bridge is =
were the lead engine would stop to exchange crews of the eastbound daily =
passenger when it would run. There was maybe only three or four coaches =
but many baggage and mailexpress cars. Loved to see those E8's run.
    =20
    On Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:28 PM  Roy K Breon  Writes
    =20
   =20
    Good photo shot.  If memory serves, the coaling tower is off screen =
to
    the left (west).  Pedestrian bridge for the workers in shown in =
lower
    center coming from the town and over the remaining tracks.  Looks =
like
    room for about eight tracks under the bridge.  How many were there?  =
Note
    the pile of cabese on the tracks to the right.  These were discussed =
on
    this list a month or so ago.  Was there a transfer table in that
    rectangular area to the left of the right hand building?  Lines to =
the
    right went to Lock Haven then Williamsport, Sunbury, and Harrisburg.
    Lines to the left to Buffalo.
    Roy Breon
    Pittsford, NY


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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>You are right on all accounts. The =
coaling tower=20
is off to the left approximately two hundred yards. I have done a photo =
study of=20
it if you have any great interest. The tower is to be the center piece =
of the=20
economic partnerships &quot;Heritage Park&quot;. The walk bridge is =
below and=20
the transfer table is to the left of the right hand building. That puts =
it=20
between the car shops and the passenger car and paint shop. The northern =
end of=20
the right hand building was a wood working shop. By the way it looks as =
if they=20
may fire up that transfer table again. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Greg Stone =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>PRRT&amp;HS member</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>interested in any information on the Renovo =
Yards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Gas@fastinet.net">Gas@fastinet.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Wayne Dibert &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:102016.1343@worldnet.att.net">102016.1343@worldnet.att.net=
</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:prr-talk@dsop.com">prr-talk@dsop.com</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:prr-talk@dsop.com">prr-talk@dsop.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Friday, December 04, 1998 8:40 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>[PRR] =
Coaling=20
    Towers<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>The coaling tower is to =
the left. The=20
    main road that went throught there was&nbsp; PA RT 120. Where it =
went by the=20
    coal tower and up over the railroad it had two wicked 90 degree =
turns. Many=20
    a truck and car hit the side of that bridge. Sometime in the 70's =
PennDot=20
    rebuilt the bridge and took out the turns. Too bad, I loved the =
nostalage.=20
    There was a westbound track and an eastbound track then a yard =
track. The=20
    three ran in front of the hump. Then there was I believe eleven yard =
leads=20
    on the west yard and 20 tracks on the east yard where the hump was.=20
    Westbound the trains ran to Buffalo or Erie. Conrail sold the Erie =
line and=20
    though they were considering selling the Buffalo line from Driftwood =
up I=20
    understand that with the merger, the sell has been put on hold =
because=20
    Canadien Pacific wants to run unit trains down through there. The =
next time=20
    I get into Renovo I will take a picture of the coal tower and scan =
them and=20
    post them for all of you. There is a transfer table between the car =
shops=20
    and those coabooses are still there, about 40 of them. There is also =
a PRR=20
    supt. coach. Supposedly the shops were sold to some outfit that is =
going to=20
    rebuild damaged freight cars there. Won't be alot of jobs but at =
least there=20
    will still be railroading there. That bridge is were the lead engine =
would=20
    stop to exchange crews of the eastbound daily passenger when it =
would run.=20
    There was maybe only three or four coaches but many baggage and =
mailexpress=20
    cars. Loved to see those E8's run.</FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D3></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3>On Thursday, December 03, 1998 9:28 PM&nbsp; Roy =
K=20
    Breon&nbsp; Writes</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Good photo shot.&nbsp; If memory serves, the coaling tower is =
off=20
    screen to<BR>the left (west).&nbsp; Pedestrian bridge for the =
workers in=20
    shown in lower<BR>center coming from the town and over the remaining =

    tracks.&nbsp; Looks like<BR>room for about eight tracks under the=20
    bridge.&nbsp; How many were there?&nbsp; Note<BR>the pile of cabese =
on the=20
    tracks to the right.&nbsp; These were discussed on<BR>this list a =
month or=20
    so ago.&nbsp; Was there a transfer table in that<BR>rectangular area =
to the=20
    left of the right hand building?&nbsp; Lines to the<BR>right went to =
Lock=20
    Haven then Williamsport, Sunbury, and Harrisburg.<BR>Lines to the =
left to=20
    Buffalo.<BR>Roy Breon<BR>Pittsford, =
NY<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BE2101.250C4E80--


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:06:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (5)

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 RickTipton@aol.com wrote:

> derailments.   By the 70s a newer alignment was still sharp but without
> guardrails.  For some reason, in 1966, the ETT prohibits GF28a's (U28C's,
> which were brand new) on this curve, although IIRC their trimount trucks were
> the same as on U25C's.

U25Cs had a trimount like the RSD12 from Alco; U28C and U30C used GSC or
AD trucks (though on the Pennsy both groups of units had the same body
style, that of a U28C, and the distinguishing factor was the variant of
truck, GSC or AD)

-D



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Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:24:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Towers
From: rbreon@juno.com (Roy K Breon)

Nice pictures on your web site.  I recognize the picture that you are
asking about.  You may already know that it is at the east end of the
Ronovo yards.  I took some pictures of it but don't know its purpose.

Roy Breon

On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:43:53 -0500 Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
writes:
>Wayne Dibert wrote:
>> 
>>... The next time I get into Renovo I will take a picture
>> of the coal tower and scan them and post them for all of you.
>> ...
>
>I have a picture on my PRR P&E/E&P site:
>http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/renovo.htm
>-- 
>Jerry Shickler
>e-mail: geshick@velocity.net
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:11:55 -0600
Subject: [PRR] ALCo PAs
From: locoshop@juno.com

Hello all,

I was wondering if the ALCo PAs were delivered with the trainphone
antenna?  I am looking at getting a set of Kato N scale PAs in DGLE and
was wondering if this detail needed to be added.  Thanks for any help.

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com

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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:34:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Towers

Has any work started at Renovo with regards to the car repair shop?  What is
the likelyhood that the foot bridge will be demolished?

Rick

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Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:54:56 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] ALCo PAs

Howdy All:

I can't say for sure that Alco installed the the trainphone equipment at the
factory, however, there is enough photographic evidence that all 10 PA1 A
units had trainphone equipment all their service life on the PRR.

The best roster that I can come up with is:
Original class AP3 changed to AP20 in the 1951 classification
reconfiguration.
Numbers 5750A to 5759A for A units (10)
Numbers 5750B to 5758B for B units ( 5)  - even numbers only.

They appear to have been delved in the "Phase I" PA style.
 The best that I can tell -
5752A, 5753A, 5756A and 5759A delivered in Tuscan Red
5750A, 5751A, 5754A, 5755A, 5757A and  5758A delivered in DGLE
At least one B unit was in Tuscan Red.  Based on standard PRR buying
practices, I would guess that 2 sets (A-B-A) came in Tuscan and 3 sets in
DGLE.  It seems strange to me that 5756 and 5759 got the red and not a
matched numeric set.

In Pennsy Power iii, Mr. Staufer tells us that the PRR may not have had any
of the PA's delivered in Tuscan Red.

The cab units only were re-geared in 1954.  Again photographic evidence
suggest that they received large front number broads and large numbers on
the "b" end of the unit at this time also.  The class was changed to AFP20.
The B units continued in the AP20 class.  All 15 PA's where traded in on the
15 AF24's (RS27) of 1962.

cos
wsbcos.com

locoshop@juno.com wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I was wondering if the ALCo PAs were delivered with the trainphone
> antenna?  I am looking at getting a set of Kato N scale PAs in DGLE and
> was wondering if this detail needed to be added.  Thanks for any help.
>
> Jeremy Helms
> Omaha, Nebraska
> locoshop@juno.com
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
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> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Fw: [PRR] Coaling Towers
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:35:05 -0500

That pricture with an "I" is the hump shoving over. The yellow structure
houses the yardmaster and the scale.

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Roy K Breon <rbreon@juno.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Towers


>Nice pictures on your web site.  I recognize the picture that you are
>asking about.  You may already know that it is at the east end of the
>Ronovo yards.  I took some pictures of it but don't know its purpose.
>
>Roy Breon
>
>On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:43:53 -0500 Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
>writes:
>>Wayne Dibert wrote:
>>>
>>>... The next time I get into Renovo I will take a picture
>>> of the coal tower and scan them and post them for all of you.
>>> ...
>>
>>I have a picture on my PRR P&E/E&P site:
>>http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/renovo.htm
>>--
>>Jerry Shickler
>>e-mail: geshick@velocity.net
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>___________________________________________________________________
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>


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From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Fw: [PRR] Coaling Towers
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:32:32 -0500

At this time there has been no work started on car repair at the old shops.
That foot bridge is in really bad shap. Not only are there boards missing on
the walk path but the steel is rotting away. As of now the bridge is blocked
off from foot trafic. It would be great if they repaired or rebuilt it.

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: TodEngine@aol.com <TodEngine@aol.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Towers


>Has any work started at Renovo with regards to the car repair shop?  What
is
>the likelyhood that the foot bridge will be demolished?
>
>Rick
>
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:48:11 EST
Subject: [PRR] ALCo PAs

In a message dated 12/6/98 7:44:42 PM Central Standard Time, wsbcos@cris.com
writes:

<< I can't say for sure that Alco installed the the trainphone equipment at
the
 factory, however, there is enough photographic evidence that all 10 PA1 A
 units had trainphone equipment all their service life on the PRR. >>

To my knowledge all PRR covered wagons  (except the paired unit of a BP60) had
trainphone antennas.  If any were installed by the PRR I don't have any
information to support that fact. In other words, if it was a covered wagon,
freight or passenger, it had trainphones and (very) most likely they were
installed at the factory.  Never say never, but look at the builders photos at
the factory.  And as I previously posted, factory photos I saw at Chicago
Railroadiana show available from EMD employees show E units and F units with
antennas.
For modeling purposes, it is easy. Covered wagon = trainphone antennas until
1960s.


Bob Zoeller

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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 00:01:19 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (5)

Actually the U-25c trucks were different from any Alco versions. They had a
much larger equalizer than the Alco's. The same trucks were used under the
E-44 and the E-33. I don't know of any other units that had this truck.
Ken McCorry

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From: "Robert Schoenberg" <robs@internexus.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR equipment diagrams...
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 02:24:44 -0500

Hi all,

  Just wanted to let everybody know that I'm just about finished scanning a
notebook of over 1000 PRR equipment classification diagrams that I borrowed
from George Elwood (along with some others in my collection.)  These are
diagrams of the same type as the ones in the Pennsy Car Plans and Pennsy
Freight and Passenger Plans books put out by Robert Wayner.
  Most classes of equipment are included: freight and passenger cars, MOW
equipment, steam, diesel and electric locomotives, mu cars and more!  You
name it and it's probably there.  The only batch of diagrams that I haven't
finished are freight containers (like the ones carried in G22 gondolas and
on FM flat cars.)  Also, some of the descriptions still need a bit of work.
Unfortunately there are a few holes, most notably, steam engines between
approximately 1900 and the 40's are missing, (the list jumps from H6's right
up to J1's Q2's and T1's!)  Also, the notebook didn't have too many pre 19
teens cars.
  If you have copies of any diagrams that are missing, I'd appreciate copies
so I can fill in the holes in the collection!

Also, if you're interested in a copy of the diagram collection on CD-ROM,
e-mail me.  If there's enough demand I'll probably be able to make them.
Detail to be worked out...

Almost forgot, the diagrams are at http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams

Rob
robs@railfan.net
http://prr.railfan.net




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From: cschlund@sfsu.edu
Date:          Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:52:26 
Subject: [PRR] Minitrix availability

Hi Jeremy & list members,

Jeremy wrote:

> I have just purchased a pair of GHQ L1 conversion kits and the Kato N
> scale Mikes to go with.  Is there any pointers on these locomotive and
> their assembly?

You need to pick up the June 1998 back issue of Railmodel Journal - it has
an 8-page article on pointers for doing this. Very good info in this
article.

> Also wondering about the current availability of
> Minitrix K4s and I1s?  Are they still being made or are they something I
> must look for elsewhere?

I recently noticed the N-scale I1 2-10-0 in
an advert I got in the mail from 
AHC in New York - they used to advertise regularly in MR, so check there
for an ad and telephone number. The price was in the $60-something
dollar range. No mention of the K4 4-6-2. I see them all the time at swap
meets, typically selling for around $55.

There was a very good article on improving the running characteristics
of the Trix K4 in a back issue of N-Scale mag. Several years back as I
recall.

> Thanks for any help out there. Live long and
> Pennsy (or is that prosper?).   ;-)

Oh, you want the Star Trek list...

  -  Claus
  
-------------------------***{}***-------------------------

Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry)
Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA

Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale
passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif



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From: Sean121982@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:03:34 EST
Subject: [PRR] demolition of MO and AR towers

From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>

According to information I was given from local sources, Conrail plans to
demolish MO Tower in Cresson, PA as soon as...  TODAY!

The Borough of Cresson has capitalized considerably on its railroad
heritage (it is the location of the diesel servicing facilities for the
helpers which assist trains on the grade over Horseshoe Curve, as well as a
service point for diesels assigned to local freights and mine hauls out of
South Fork, PA) by building a "Train Watching Platform" trackside and
displaying a Pennsy N5b cabin car (replacing an NYC bay window caboose
which was so severely damaged it was scrapped).  Cresson is also the
location of "The Station Inn" railfan bed and breakfast.  Cresson sought
and received permission from Conrail to move the closed MO Tower closer to
its present display.

But when attempts were made to effect that move, MO's stairs collapsed
internally and numerous other structural damage was discovered.  Over a
long period of time, efforts to resolve the construction and moving
problems have proven unsuccessful.

Now, sources tell me the tower is set to come down this week, with the work
possibly beginning today (12/7/98).  Having been at the site yesterday,
there appears to be nothing in the way of such a demolition project taking
place.  The tower is in extremely sad shape!

Now, even more bad news for Pennsy fans and railroad buffs in general: 
these same sources report the next scheduled demolition will be nearby AR
Tower in Gallitzin, PA.  AR is the brick tower which controlled the entire
Gallitzin Tunnels area, including the turning loops originally built to
turn helper engines.  The installation includes AR (the south end of the
loops), UN (the north end, only a shanty of sorts originally), and SF (the
switches at the east end of the Gallitzin Tunnels which permitted access to
the long-abandoned Muleshoe Curve line to Hollidaysburg, PA).

These sources report that AR will come down following the destruction of
MO.  Yesterday's visit saw AR with its windows boarded up and standing
abandoned and forelorn.

One speculates that even worse things may happen with the NS takeover, so
we fans probably should "get used to this."  Still, it makes one thankful
to be a modeler who can put these towers "back" on a layout, and in a
miniature manner "restore" the Pennsylvania Railroad to its original
stature.

Now, frankly I hope I'm wrong about all of this!  But my sources are
normally very authoritative.  If anyone living in that area is on the list
and can supply more information, hopeful or negative, I'm certain it would
be appreciated greatly by all of us.

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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:36:56 -0500
From: DjM <shazada@mis.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] demolition of MO and AR towers

Sad news indeed.

Even sadder is the fact that Norfolk Southern isn't a railroad known for their
positive stand on historical preservation. Here in Kentucky, in a small town
named Lawrenceburg stands one of the oldest wooden depots in the area. Built in
the late 1800s by a Southern predecessor, it stands in dis-repair and is now on
Norfolk Southern's hit list. The town of Lawrenceburg is trying to save the
depot, but their funds are limited. Sorry to ramble off ... just letting you
all know what your in for when NS takes the helm.

I'm afraid even more PRR heritage will be lost in the coming months.

-=D
--
David Mikulec
The DT&I Modelers Page
http://DTI.Railfan.net



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Subject: Re: [PRR] demolition of MO and AR towers
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 98 14:06:54 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/7/98 12:03 PM, Sean121982@aol.com (Sean121982@aol.com) wrote:

>These sources report that AR will come down following the destruction of
>MO.  Yesterday's visit saw AR with its windows boarded up and standing
>abandoned and forelorn.

At RailFest in October, I was told MG would also come down. 

Sure am glad HARRIS was saved. Not only saved...but being restored slowly 
but surely. Too bad there's not much passenger traffic going my any more.

YORK tower still stands...in pretty decent shape actually. But it's 
location within the wye of Conrail and the Ma&Pa all but prevents it from 
falling into private hands.

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:48:59 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: [PRR] demolition of MO and AR towers

--On Monday, December 07, 1998, 12:03 PM +0000 Sean121982@aol.com wrote: 

> One speculates that even worse things may happen with the NS takeover, so
> we fans probably should "get used to this."  

Indeed, "one" could speculate that railroading itself (as we, in the
northeast have come to know it) will be demolished soon after NS's takeover.
 I, for one, am about as disgusted with CONRAIL's senior executives as many
Americans have become about Major League Baseball ... a bad analogy?  I
don't think so.

Vagel Keller
Pittsburgh, PA

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Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:15:02 -0800 (PST)
From: amfmx@earthlink.net (Alan Radecki)
Subject: [PRR] PRR's Silver Rapids

I have a question for PRR Passenger car experts. PRR owned one of the
California Zephyr cars, the Budd  10/6 sleeper Silver Rapids, #8449, which
was used for through car service to New York. Once this service was
cancelled in about 1964, the CZ roads wanted to buy the car from the PRR,
but PRR refused. Later, this car showed up in Amtrak service, I believe
still in CZ paint (I vaguely remember seeing it this way in the early 70s,
but I could be wrong, too). 

What I'd like to know is: what did the PRR do with the car in the years
between 1964 and 1971? Was is used in regular service? Was it repainted?

Any help with this, and in fact any tidbits of info regarding the PRR's
participation in the CZ would be appreciated, as I maintain a web site that
documents the CZ's history, and this is a hole in the info.

Thanks much!

Alan Radecki
amfmx@earthlink.net
California Zephyr Virtual Museum: http://calzephyr.railfan.net


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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 98 21:35:31 CST
Subject: [PRR] Keystone lantern parts...

Hi, everyone,

After reading the latest issue of the KEYSTONE (great issue!!), I was 
pleased to read the description of the Keystone "Casey" lantern.  I've 
owned one of these for years, which leads to a request.  Mine is the wire 
bottom style but it came without the innerds - the part which holds the 
oil, the wick, and the wick raising gear.  Anyone have this part?  Might 
you be willing to part with it?  If so, please contact me off list.

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:41:20 -0500
From: Bradley Lamca <blamca@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [PRR] BALDWIN 4-6-0

 I am a recent entrant to railroading.  My late grandfather Thomas Lloyd

 worked for the PRR in Altoona.  I just purchased a Bachmann Super Chief

 set, and intend to model some locations around the Altoona area.
 My Loco is a Baldwin 4-6-0, which I have found to be a G4 or G5.  I am
 interested in modeling an early 1900's theme and need info on which
 engine numbers of the 4-6-0 would have been used in travel through the
Spruce
 Creek Bridge and Tyrone.  I should note that at this time I know almost

 nothing about the lines, trains, or much of anything else pertaining to

 this topic.  I would like to know colors, color schemes, cars, etc.
 Maybe there is an internet source with this info?
 Thank you in advance,
 Brad Lamca
 Orlando, FL


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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 98 21:31:11 CST
Subject: [PRR] Modeling stone loads

Hi, all,

Maybe this is not new, but while in a welding supply shop a few days ago, I 
came across pieces of rectangular soapstone, which I presume is used for 
marking items to be welded.  I bought six pieces for a few bucks because it 
looks to me like it could easily be cut to shape for loads of quarried 
stone blocks in gons.  Haven't tried it yet but it sure looks promising!

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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From: PDB1854@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:37:39 EST
Subject: [PRR] Conrail Towers

Greetings!

Indeed the "mountain" signal towers; MG-AR-MO are scheduled for demolition
between now and March 1 of next year.  But before we beat-up on Conrail too
much you should know that Conrail gave the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum
the opportunity to go into MG & AR and take measured drawings, detailed
photographs, and any, yes, any of the equipment we wanted.  We have model
boards, desks, interlocking machines, levers, lanterns, timers, hoops, and the
like from these towers and SO in South Fork.  

We were in fact consulted for an extended period regarding the possibility of
preserving MG tower.  Arguably the most significant tower in terms of
architectural detailing, we determined it could not be reasonably moved from
its present location.

Contrary to what some may believe, Conrail is sensitive to their past and have
made significant donations to ensure preservation of their (and predecessor
railroads) heritage.  We can only hope that the incoming operator (NS) is at
least as concerned with their heritage as was (is) Conrail.

Peter Barton
Executive Director
Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum

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From: Sean121982@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 02:11:21 EST
Subject: [PRR] MO tower is gone

From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>

It looks as though MO Tower never existed!  Yes, the auxiliary building
housing the air plant and mechanical facilities remains.  And the ugly
metal "box" is still there...  the present location of the 'MO' sings.

But MO Tower?  Gone!

It happened today (12/7/98)... rather quickly.  A crew I talked with who
had passed through Cresson, PA earlier in the day noted "people around,
some with cameras."  But it seemed to them the tower was there.

Tonight, when I checked, it wasn't!  

There was nothing there save for a couple pieces of construction equipment.

And as reporter earlier, neighboring AR Tower is Gallitzin, PA is slated to
go next.

Farewell, Old Friend!  I wish the town had worked harder to save you.  But
your memory will last forever.  I was inside a couple of times.  Even met
one of the female operators.  For years MO was worked by "Mary," who had
hired out during the war.  Of course, female operators are no longer
unusual.  Three of them now work 'C' at Conemaugh and ALTO at Altoona.

At least I got my pictures Sunday, of some of the final trains to pass MO.

Another sad day for Pennsy fans, and Conrail fans, too.  Probably one of
many these days for the latter especially.

MO will live on, though, at least in miniature.  One of these days it will
rise again in HO scale on my layout.

Sorry to have to report the final bad news.

For followers of Art Bell on the radio, perhaps he was right after all. 
Something very bad did happen on December 7th.

We all lost a friend!

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From: "N Campbell" <rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's Silver Rapids
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:10:35 -0500

Alan
After the Zephyr service ended the PRR car had Pennsylvania put on the
nameboard.
This car was used in the Florida trade, but was probably went to the general
pool at this late date in passenger service.

Neil



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From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:02:00 -0600
Subject: [PRR] PRR Employee Timetables

HI Gang,
     Yesterday I had received some employee timetables I had recently won
on EBAY.  Looking through them these timetables they are from the 20's &
30's mostly from the Williamsport Division and the Middle Division-Eastern
Pennsylvania Division and special instructions to the Philadelphia
Division. They are in used condition and do smell mildewed but the
information contained in them is invaluable to PRR fans as these timetables
are over 60 years old and were kept to update with all of the changes.  If
anybody is interested in making a swap of timetables I would be interested
in swapping my extra years timetables.  Please reply to me off-line.

Thanks

Randy Williamson

P.S.
Jerry
One of the single only employee timetables is for the Middle
Divsion-Harrisburg Terminal from 1927.



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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:51:55 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: [PRR] More on the Alco PA:


--------------1EC6624B761A9F52B51821C9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy All:

The builders photo for 5750 shows the trainphone antenna installed.

The Mohawk & Hudson chapter of the NRHS has control of the ALCO builder
photos, in their ALCO Historic Photos publication they list a PRR PA1
with the number 5999 photo # S3010.  Anybody know the history on this
PA1.
Just out of curiosity, I'll have to order a print of it.

Cos
wsbcos.com

--------------1EC6624B761A9F52B51821C9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy All:

<P>The builders photo for 5750 shows the trainphone antenna installed.

<P>The Mohawk &amp; Hudson chapter of the NRHS has control of the ALCO
builder photos, in their <B><I>ALCO Historic Photos</I></B> publication
they list a PRR PA1 with the number 5999 photo # S3010.&nbsp; Anybody know
the history on this PA1.
<BR>Just out of curiosity, I'll have to order a print of it.

<P>Cos
<BR>wsbcos.com</HTML>

--------------1EC6624B761A9F52B51821C9--


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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:49:16 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's Silver Rapids

Howdy All and Alan:
Hope this helps:

Silver Rapids, Pullman car code 6792, Plan Number 9520, Lot 9662-031, 10
Roomette, 6 double bedroom, 32 volt electrical system with 41-NDS-11 trucks,
electromechanical air-conditioning system,  built by Budd 11/48.   C.T. 4301 of
10/1/67 (Special Instructions governing operation of passenger equipment
authorized to operate at speeds in excess of 80 miles per hour), lists the
Silver Rapids as a 100 mph car.   The Official Register of Passenger Train
Equipment for 1969 - still lists the Silver Rapids.  The Amtrak Car Spotter of
1972 does not list the Silver Rapids in the the 10-6 section.  It does list the
following cars from the 1948 CZ all Silver  - Point, Shore, Butte, Cliff, Falls
& Valley.  As best that I can tell no ex PRR, NYC, NYNH&H (former PC) cars of
the 10-6 type made it to Amtrak.

I'll agree with Neil that the car was put into the general Florida pool along
with the 50 or so other Rapid series 10-6 lightweight cars.

Cos
wsbcos.com

Alan Radecki wrote:

> I have a question for PRR Passenger car experts. PRR owned one of the
> California Zephyr cars, the Budd  10/6 sleeper Silver Rapids, #8449, which
> was used for through car service to New York. Once this service was
> cancelled in about 1964, the CZ roads wanted to buy the car from the PRR,
> but PRR refused. Later, this car showed up in Amtrak service, I believe
> still in CZ paint (I vaguely remember seeing it this way in the early 70s,
> but I could be wrong, too).
>
> What I'd like to know is: what did the PRR do with the car in the years
> between 1964 and 1971? Was is used in regular service? Was it repainted?
>
> Any help with this, and in fact any tidbits of info regarding the PRR's
> participation in the CZ would be appreciated, as I maintain a web site that
> documents the CZ's history, and this is a hole in the info.
>
> Thanks much!
>
> Alan Radecki
> amfmx@earthlink.net
> California Zephyr Virtual Museum: http://calzephyr.railfan.net
>
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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:56:37 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: [PRR] NS Negativity #2 (was RE: Conrail Towers]

--On Monday, December 07, 1998, 10:37 PM +0000 PDB1854@aol.com wrote: 

> We can only hope that the incoming operator (NS) is at
> least as concerned with their heritage as was (is) Conrail.

They probably are ... good news if you're a member of SCV (Sons of
Confederate Veterans).  Not so good news if you're interested in preserving
Pennsylvania's railroad heritage.  March 1, 1998 is "Day 1" of NS in
Pennsylvania.  Any coincidence between the towers being demo'd by that date?
 I'll bet so.  So much for NS interested in preserving Yankee heritage.  Or
maybe it's scorched earth.

Vagel "I liked 'em better when they were a subsidiary" Keller
Pittsburgh, PA


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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:39:55 EST
Subject: [PRR] It's now official, LINES WEST Fans  Fest set April 10 & 11

To All.

	It's official, the Lines West Fans Fest is officially set for April 10, 1999,
at the Greene County, Ohio, Historical Society's Carriage Hose Museum. Now I
need about a week to get all the details down. Still anticipate an advance
registration package with PLW hat & patch, and books for about $30, $10 reg.
day of show w/out premiums.
	Al Buchanan's planning a presentation on the E&P branch, Rick Tipton's
promising to flesh out his observations on the Panhandle in Dayton, the
Cincinnati Division Modelers will have a display of their modeling prowess and
I will be arranging displays on the rails to trails network using Pennsy right
of ways radiating from Xenia, an update on the NX23 restoration and a self-
guided tour of PRR locations within easy driving of Xenia. And, of course, Tom
McOwen of the Turtle Creek Valley Ry. has promised to extend his regularly
scheduled 3 p.m. passenger excursion on the Lebanon and Middletown branches
April 11 for us. Fare is $10 for adults.
	I'd still like to see a Friday or Saturday night reception at Xenia Station
(XG Tower Replica), a PRRMO Display and information booths about the PRRT&HS
and the GR&I RR Historical Society and a live connection to PRR Talk.
	Any help and ideas are welcome.

	Tom V.



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From: Eichhorn@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:35:27 EST
Subject: [PRR] E-R Models Sharknose

Hi Guys,

The E-R Models, Freight Sharks are here.  It looks good!  Nice paint job and
lettering.
Will require a coupler change to Kadee and the application of numbers to the
number boards (not included in the packaging).  Also, there is no glass in the
three door windows.  The grab irons and ladder rails are molded in as on the
Life-Like P1k's and there is no ladder affixed to the right forward side;
instead, four grab irons are placed where the ladder would normally be. I
haven't had a chance to test run it yet, so can't comment on the phase.
Selling price was $79.95 at Kathie's Trains in Frederica, DE.
That's all for now.

Regards,
George

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From: AJSNGS@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:33:04 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR Timetable FS Lines West 1910

I have a nice Pennsy timetable for sale on Ebay. A nice early one for you
Lines West folks. I'll mail ASAP so it arrives for Christmas.

EBAY# 47965290

Thanks,

Andrew Sentipal

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:07:58 EST
Subject: [PRR] MIME format

I've had several messages bounce from PRR-Talk lately, apparently because the
messages appear to the server as if they are in MIME format, or have
attachments in MIME format.

My question is simple:  what is MIME format?  What am I doing wrong? Is this
something that AOL 4.0 is likely generating?  Are others encountering this
problem?

One more - if a message were to have a MIME attachment, how would you open it?

Thanks,
Rick Tipton




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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:29:53 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR's "CZ" Silver Rapids - a "repeat" to the list

	For those of you on the list for a while - pardon the "repeat"

	If it's possible to have a "favorite" car the "Siver Rapids" is mine.  In the
early sixties I spent a long hot and lonely summer at the University of
Nebraska - Lincoln. The Burlington Depot was within walking distance and when
it was to hot to sleep I went down to watch the Zephyrs pass through in the
night. Can't tell you the exact hour - 35 years later - but both the East and
West bounds came through, and were serviced within a short period of time. 
	I enjoyed reading the names of the cars and the "Categories" such as Silver
Box and Silver Satchel on baggage cars Silver Knife Silver Fork and Silver
Spoon on the Dinners. One night I spotted Silver Rapids and was pleasantly
surprised to see PRR on the small corner boards-seeing "PRR" so far from my
Ohio home, made me smile - and feel closer to home. The rest of the summer I
looked for more PRR cars on the "CZ" - In vain, because, of course, there were
none. 
	I was always fascinated that someone put a lot of thought into the name - it
"fit" the class  of sleepers on the CZ which included names like Silver Lake
and Silver Stream - and also, by interior arrangement, the "Rapids" class on
the PRR, though all the others were smooth side and Tuscan Red ACF and Pullman
cars.
	Many years later I spotted this car again, in the storage lot at the Mad
River and NKP museum in Bellevue Ohio and again at Lake Erie Rail car in New
London Ohio, where it was being fixed up and upgraded to HEAP - I believe that
the Car still exists under private ownership - on the West Coast. 
	It is pictured in Chuck Blardone's book on PRR Passenger Cars of the PRR.
Dick Ross
Cleveland, Ohio

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Subject: Re: [PRR] MIME format
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 98 20:31:45 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/8/98 6:07 PM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote:

>I've had several messages bounce from PRR-Talk lately, apparently because the
>messages appear to the server as if they are in MIME format, or have
>attachments in MIME format.
>
>My question is simple:  what is MIME format?  What am I doing wrong? Is this
>something that AOL 4.0 is likely generating?  Are others encountering this
>problem?
>
>One more - if a message were to have a MIME attachment, how would you open 
>it?

MIME has additional formating commands, not unlike HTML. Different mail 
clients handle MIME files in different manners. Some place the entire 
message as an attachment. Others include regular text followed by the 
coded text. Still others just display the coded text, thoroughly pissing 
off the recipient.

The listserv does not allow attachments. If your posts are bouncing, then 
your client must be "sending" them as an attachment. There is a setting 
(somewhere) in the AOL software to "turn off" MIME format. Do it!



-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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From: ODyard@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:11:04 EST
Subject: [PRR] Central Valley valve gear for an English A5

Greetings!

I am looking for the valve gear kit Central Valley made for the English A5 in
the 50's.
The Bowser A5 gear would require modifications that I want to avoid. Please
write direct or post to the group. Thanks

Don Murphy

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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:21:34 EST
Subject: [PRR] off subject HELP! needed w/AOL

To all,
\
	Hopefully some one out there can help me. My Aol Browser has stopped
accepting web images. It wants to save all to diosck and then sez it can't
open them.

Tom V.

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From: DFC2211@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:03:01 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MIME format

Rick, I believe that you need WinZip 7.0 to open this file. You can get it for
free as shareware at WinZip.com.

Dan Crawford

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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:16:27 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Towers
From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor)

All this talk of tower's being torn down by NS, does CSX plan to tear
down any?  I live near Indianapolis, & was wondering if I would no longer
be able to see IU tower near Union Station any longer.

E.J. Caylor


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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:39:22 -0800 (PST)
From: amfmx@earthlink.net (Alan Radecki)
Subject: [PRR] PRR's Silver Rapids Follow-Up and Thanks

I'd like to thank all you folks who took the time to respond to my questions
on the Silver Rapids. The info you've provided will be incorporated into the
web site in the next week or two. 

A note I forgot to mention in my original post: The Silver Rapids is alive
and well, and being operated for charter by Eagle Canyon Rail Cars. The car
is listed on the AAPRCO web site:
http://www.aaprco.com/Cars/car_type_order/silver_rapids.html

Thanks again!

Alan Radecki
amfmx@earthlink.net
California Zephyr Virtual Museum: http://calzephyr.railfan.net


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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:36:48 -0800
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: [PRR] PRR: Silver Rapids, Also Blue Rapids?

Hi All,

Well, now you've gone and done it! I gotta have the "Silver" for my
through sleeper service. Checked USP list and they offer sides for it (
I think their #9509 is the kit). I've e-mailed them to see if they offer
it in N-Scale and what to do about a "core kit" as they state in their
intro that there are no N-Scale "Budd" core kits currently available. Do
any N-Scalers have ideas on how to model this car? Does anyone make a
decal set in N-Scale for this car? Am interested in which train this car
ran from Chicago to NY in and routing. Was this the only PRR car to run
in the CZ or were there others that rotated with it? If not was the
service only available when the Silver was available, maybe once or
twice a week?

Also, while researching Jerry's site for info on the Silver I found
reference to a "Blue Rapids" that was ran originally in a two-tone grey.
Does anyone have any info on this car? Which PRR trains did it run in?
Which other road's trains did it run in, UP maybe? Was it a standard
"Rapids" series Pullman smoothside 10-6, PRR class PS106? Is there a pic
or lettering diagram available? N-Scale decals available?

Well, enough questions for one post,

Thanks in advance,

Ron.


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From: CENTGA@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:51:46 EST
Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Info

Does anyone have any drawings of GG-1's?  I'm looking at overall height
compared to Rivarossi / IHC HO scale models.  They all appear, as do most
model, to sit too high off the railhead.  Thanks Todd Horton

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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:16:41 -0500
From: Vincent Troia <troiaeye@geocities.com>
Subject: [PRR] Roadbed

Dear Fellow Model Railroaders,

I was hoping someone could refresh my memory regarding roadbed choices.
A friend of mine is building a new layout and asked about "Micor", not
sure about the spelling.  He said that he was told that it was a good
alternative to Homosote.  Micor exhibits better moisture protection?  I
faintly recall a discussion about this about a year ago on one of my
railroad lists?  Thank you for your input.

Vincent

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From: "Robert Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1 Info
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:02:08 -0500

Hi,

There's a classification diagram on my web site (4 different ones actually.)
They show that the distance from railhead to the bottom of the car body
should be
4' 4-1/2".  For other measurements, check the diagrams...
The first diagram (the one for #4800) can be found at the link below.
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=gg1_4800.gif&ele=all&s
z=sm
Just hit the next button on the page to go to the other variations...

Hope that helps and let us know how the models match up!

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of
> CENTGA@aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 2:52 PM
> To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com
> Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Info
>
>
> Does anyone have any drawings of GG-1's?  I'm looking at overall height
> compared to Rivarossi / IHC HO scale models.  They all appear, as do most
> model, to sit too high off the railhead.  Thanks Todd Horton
>
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>
>


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Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Silver Rapids, Also Blue Rapids?
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 98 15:02:43 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/10/98 1:36 AM, Ron Dugas (rond@efn.org) wrote:

>Well, now you've gone and done it! I gotta have the "Silver" for my
>through sleeper service. Checked USP list and they offer sides for it (
>I think their #9509 is the kit). I've e-mailed them to see if they offer
>it in N-Scale and what to do about a "core kit" as they state in their
>intro that there are no N-Scale "Budd" core kits currently available. Do
>any N-Scalers have ideas on how to model this car? Does anyone make a
>decal set in N-Scale for this car? Am interested in which train this car
>ran from Chicago to NY in and routing. Was this the only PRR car to run
>in the CZ or were there others that rotated with it? If not was the
>service only available when the Silver was available, maybe once or
>twice a week?

I "believe" the Silver Rapids was the only PRR car to run in the Zephyr.

Can't help you on a Budd core kit in N, but I have some of the USP line 
in-stock in HO.

Silver Rapids was class PS106b (b for Budd!), Plan 9520. It's sole sister 
car was the Bradenton, built for RF&P/SAL service. The Silver Rapids was 
repainted to PRR livery in 1/59.
>
>Also, while researching Jerry's site for info on the Silver I found
>reference to a "Blue Rapids" that was ran originally in a two-tone grey.
>Does anyone have any info on this car? Which PRR trains did it run in?
>Which other road's trains did it run in, UP maybe? Was it a standard
>"Rapids" series Pullman smoothside 10-6, PRR class PS106? Is there a pic
>or lettering diagram available? N-Scale decals available?

Class PS106, Plan 9008, by ACF. Ran on MoPac's Penn Texas/Texas Eagle 
trains. It's a beautiful car. Photo and lettering diagram in the PRRTHS 
painting and lettering book. IHC properly ran this car in this scheme, so 
I had to pick it up! As of 1954, it was included in the PRR's joint 
General/Trail Blazer, alternating with the Octora Rapids. However, I 
believe the MoPac service had already been discontinued at this point. It 
was repainted to PRR colors in 4/56 and renamed Fairless Hills. Note that 
Buffalo Rapids was painted the same way for the same service.

Andy Miller can probably provide more info on the Penn Texas/Texas Eagle 
trains as he is modeling it!


------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:33:47 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: Steel mill

In a message dated 98-12-09 10:57:26 EST, you write:

<< The Coatsville Branch connected to the main line at both
 ends (MP 41.9 and MP 42.3) in the town of Pomeroy. >>
Actually the two connections were the two legs of the wye at Pomeroy. This
branch was in service as far as Doe Run into early Conrail. The King Ranch had
a winter feed facility here and this was one of the last places to see the K-9
stockcars in service. They would bring 30 car cuts in at time and unload them
for fattening up. There was a small yard off the east leg which ran along side
the main for a mile or so until it curved off to the south to drop down into
Lukens. The  bridge over Pa Rt 82 is still in place but the track has been
gone since early Conrail. The Jct Rdg co at mp 38.8 is still in use . Both
were used by the PRR the Rdg connection had better clearances but a 3% grade
down to the RDG. Conrail still uses this piece of track and it is something to
see SD-40-2's creep down this connection with loads. The Reading had direct
access to Lukens off their Wilmington & Northern BR. They did not need to use
the PRR connection for access to anything.  By the way it's Coatesville not
Coatsville.  If any one needs any info on this area I live about 15 minutes
from Lukens and have discovered much info on the operations over the years.
Ken McCorry

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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:50:08 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] E-R Models Sharknose

In a message dated 12/8/98 7:27:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Eichhorn@aol.com
writes:

<< The E-R Models, Freight Sharks are here.  It looks good!  Nice paint job
and
 lettering.
 Will require a coupler change to Kadee and the application of numbers to the
 number boards (not included in the packaging).  Also, there is no glass in
the
 three door windows.  The grab irons and ladder rails are molded in as on the
 Life-Like P1k's and there is no ladder affixed to the right forward side;
 instead, four grab irons are placed where the ladder would normally be. I
 haven't had a chance to test run it yet, so can't comment on the phase. >>

I can comment on the running abililty, since I've test run them. They run good
right out of the box and better after a break in period. Not as quiet as a
kato but there is no gear noise like in an Athearn. They are prettly hefty
also right out of the box so they should pull well. Now if they would only do
B units and the 5 stripe scheme. 
Brian C

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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:02:28 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] E-R Models Sharknose

In a message dated 12/8/98 7:27:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Eichhorn@aol.com
writes:

<< The E-R Models, Freight Sharks are here.  It looks good!  Nice paint job
and
 lettering.
 Will require a coupler change to Kadee and the application of numbers to the
 number boards (not included in the packaging).  Also, there is no glass in
the
 three door windows.  The grab irons and ladder rails are molded in as on the
 Life-Like P1k's and there is no ladder affixed to the right forward side;
 instead, four grab irons are placed where the ladder would normally be. I
 haven't had a chance to test run it yet, so can't comment on the phase. >>

I can comment on the running abililty, since I've test run them. They run good
right out of the box and better after a break in period. Not as quiet as a
kato but there is no gear noise like in an Athearn. They are prettly hefty
also right out of the box so they should pull well. Now if they would only do
B units and the 5 stripe scheme. 
Brian C

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailer
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 98 20:38:23 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Remember that 40' TrucTrain trailer Hank located in a junk yard in 
Virginia last summer? Well I finally got off my butt and got all of his 
photos scanned in and posted. He also did a bang up job on HO scale 
diagrams of the sucker. Nice going, Hank!

You'll find them on "Keystone Crossings" in the Freight Ops section
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:30:34 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Silver Rapids, Also Blue Rapids?

That two-tone gray "Blue Rapids" blows me away - on my must do list, in
O scale.  Re: MP colors, the MP ink colors in the PRRTHS book are way
off base - not even close.  The MP Hist Soc web site has a page with
DuPont & other make color numbers, for those who are interested.

URL is  http://www.geocities.com/~mopac/

Steve Bartlett

Jerry wrote:
> 
...................... 
> Class PS106, Plan 9008, by ACF. Ran on MoPac's Penn Texas/Texas Eagle
> trains. It's a beautiful car. Photo and lettering diagram in the PRRTHS
> painting and lettering book.........................


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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:05:23 EST
Subject: [PRR] AMB wants your response!

Hey yuze Gize,
   John Hitzeman with American Model Builders, Inc. is looking for your
response.  I have told him that if he builds it we will come!  I have also
told him that I would like to see a floor for the GS gondola (wood version).
Here's your chance guys show him your support!  EMAIL HIM!  He's on our side.
   Greg Martin 

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:22:09 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MIME format

Rick,
   I have had similar problems myself and sent the message to Jerry to review
and I think he though that I was trying to send an attached file when I was
not.  It was merely a "reply all" like this one, I wonder if this one will
make it through? 
  Greg Martin 

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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:07:06 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1 Info

Railroad Model Craftsman Magazine ran detailed drawings of the GG-1 in
December, 1975, as part of a two-part article concluding in the January,
1976, issue.  On problem with body height is that the driving trucks
appear to extend up inside the carbody slightly, not easy to accomplish
in a model.

Steve Bartlett

CENTGA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any drawings of GG-1's?  I'm looking at overall height
> compared to Rivarossi / IHC HO scale models.  They all appear, as do most
> model, to sit too high off the railhead.  Thanks Todd Horton
>



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:16:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Silver Rapids, Also Blue Rapids?

In a message dated 12/9/98 2:12:29 PM Central Standard Time, rond@efn.org
writes:

<< Am interested in which train this car
 ran from Chicago to NY in and routing. Was this the only PRR car to run
 in the CZ or were there others that rotated with it? If not was the
 service only available when the Silver was available, maybe once or
 twice a week?>>
Silver Rapids was the Pennsy-owned car.  There were six CZ trains.  CB&Q,
D&RGW, and maybe WP contributed another six Silver series cars(one being a
protect car).
The painting and lettering guide says it ran in the General (it also says the
through car alternated with the NYC), but in 1950 it was in the Admiral
eastbound and the Pennsylvania Limited westbound. Until 1948, the through cars
were heavyweights.
 
 <<Also, while researching Jerry's site for info on the Silver I found
 reference to a "Blue Rapids" that was ran originally in a two-tone grey.
 Does anyone have any info on this car? Which PRR trains did it run in?
 Which other road's trains did it run in, UP maybe? Was it a standard
 "Rapids" series Pullman smoothside 10-6, PRR class PS106? Is there a pic
 or lettering diagram available? N-Scale decals available?..
 
 The painting and lettering guide again gives the details, but the car was
painted in two tone gray to match the Overland  of the SP-C&NW.  The guide
says the San Francisco car (a 10-1-2 before the Blue Rapids or Buffalo Rapids)
ran variously in the Admiral, the Pennsylvanian, the Rainbow, and the
Pennsylvania Limited. In 1950 Buffalo Rapids was listed in the eastbound
Pennsylvania Limited and Blue Rapids was listed in the eastbound General.
Later on the San Francisco car ran UP-C&NW and then UP-Milwaukee Road. The
last year,as the painting and lettering guide indicated, the cars ran in the
Broadway, but by this time Buffalo Rapids was UP yellow (don't know about Blue
Rapids).
"Standard" 10-6 is a debatable term.  There were variations: the paint scheme
on the IHC car looks to be very accurate for Blue Rapids but is off by one
small window from the exact car style.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 23:58:31 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Truc Train trailer



 Hello Folks....

   Well today Jerry got the Truc Train trailer photos up...Good job
   Jerry. Jerry asked if the junk yard might sell it....Hmmmm I don't
   know, but will find out....I do know that they are using it to store
   engine parts...and that it was towable about 12 years ago....
   I guess if the price was right they might sell it...They might want
   to get a newer storage trailer someday anyway. I'll keep you
   guys posted on what they say. If i tell them that there are some 
   folks interested in saving it for a museum....I might need to
   give them a name....the day that i took the pictures i did show
   the guy in the office the pictures from The first color guide
   book (sweetland and yanosey) of what they looked like when newer
   and in service....he had no idea it was used for that.

   Someone who has experiance with Museum restoration needs to come
   look at it and see if its worth saving....I do know that the frame
   is basically in good shape...the side door would need some work.
   the sides are kinda ok...but to me will need much work.
   Years ago when i was a volunteer at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum
   in Baltimore i helped with restorations...but it has been over
   20 years since i did any of that kind of work....I'm not a Museum
   evaluator....Anyone want to volunteer ?

   In the photos that Jerry scanned you can't see it well, but the 
   Pennsylvania name , the PRR keystone ,the trailer number and the
Excelcior      keystone are all there on the front of the trailer


                                        til later
                                        Hank Mummert


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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:58:38 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
Subject: [PRR] Pullman sleeper 'Nightstar'

I just added a picture of the PRR Pullman sleeper 'Nightstar' to my web
page (http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/rollstk.htm).  This car is
located at the Lake Shore Railway museum in North East, PA.  Does anyone
have any information on it (PRR class, etc.)?
Thanks!
-- 
Jerry Shickler
e-mail: geshick@velocity.net

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From: Boilerbob7@aol.com
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:55:13 EST
Subject: [PRR] RR chat room.

There is a chat room strictly for railfans at 
<A HREF="http://www.trainorders.com/">Trainorders Home Page</A> 

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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:22:54 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] magazine drawings


 Hi you all....

  Well..its been a week or so...So i'm gonna go over all the info i have
  on PRR equipment drawings and make up the list and post it here for 
  all to use. This will be a list of drawings from magazines not listed
  on the Accurail site...Also I'll post the link to the Accurail site for any
  who don't have it. 

  While i'm here....Anyone know if the Central Valley valve gear kit
  for the B & O " Docksider " is the same kit more or less as the one they
  put out for the old John English (HObbyline)A-5.?..I have a reason for
asking...

                                             Til Later
                                             Hank Mummert


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Subject: [PRR] Wanted: Modular Railroaders near York, Pa.
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 11:55:02 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I'd like to contact as many folks as possible who are within 60 minutes 
of York, Pa., who would be interested in participating in a new modular 
club.

The proposed club would be DCC based, HO scale, following the basic 
standards created by the PRRMO group (see http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com) 
(negotiable). The PRRMO group is off to a very slow start and I am trying 
to get things going on a local level. Participation in the PRRMO group 
itself would not be required, but would be encouraged.

My concept for the club is to recreate, per prototype, the Northern 
Central branch between Harrisburg and Baltimore. Likely to be included 
might be portions of the Wrightsville Branch and the Frederick Branch, as 
well as interchanges with the Maryland & Pennsylvania and the Western 
Maryland.

If anyone is interested, please contact me directly. I will also be 
contacting the members of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS, 
many of whom are not online. Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:08:36 -0500
From: DjM <shazada@mis.net>
Subject: [PRR] test

testing

it's been to quiet as of late!

-=D
--
David Mikulec
The DT&I Modelers Page
http://DTI.Railfan.net



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Subject: [PRR] MO Tower and Mary
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 98 09:13:18 -0500

In the thread on the demolition of MO tower, someone had made reference to a
female tower operator named Mary.  I paid little notice at the time, but
yesterday I received an e-mail from a museum in California doing an exhibit on
women in railroading.  They were looking for stories about women RRers.

Can the originator of the e-mail on Mary tell me more so that I may pass the
info on?

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:18:13 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: [PRR] One more PA1 post:


--------------CBF475B1294010F5700C3FEE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy All:

While looking up stuff on the Nightstar, I ran into Bob Reids' article
on the PA1 in Pennsy Journal Vol. 1 No. 2.   "The units came in
Brunswick Green, repainted in 1951/52 to Tuscan Red. During this period
1947-52 they were trimmed with five stripes.  ---  Only two B-units that
we know of received the big single stripe with the large keystone -
5756B and 5752B.  Two A-units - 5757 and 5758 were repainted back into
Brunswick Green around 1956."

Cos
wsbcos.com

--------------CBF475B1294010F5700C3FEE
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy All:

<P>While looking up stuff on the Nightstar, I ran into Bob Reids' article
on the PA1 in <I>Pennsy Journal </I>Vol. 1 No. 2.&nbsp;&nbsp; "The units
came in Brunswick Green, repainted in 1951/52 to Tuscan Red. During this
period 1947-52 they were trimmed with five stripes.&nbsp; ---&nbsp; Only
two B-units that we know of received the big single stripe with the large
keystone - 5756B and 5752B.&nbsp; Two A-units - 5757 and 5758 were repainted
back into Brunswick Green around 1956."

<P>Cos
<BR>wsbcos.com</HTML>

--------------CBF475B1294010F5700C3FEE--


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:58:09 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullman sleeper 'Nightstar'


--------------8814BDB46FC9E556210F6559
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy All and Jerry:

The best that I can find is:
Nightstar: built 1926, lot number 6056, plan 3980C, 14 single bedrooms -
convertible sofa - no upper berth, no smoking room, white metal wash stands,
vapor heat, mechanical a/c, 2410A trucks, Westinghouse UC Brakes.

There were 30 cars built in the Night class, lots 6056, 6458, and 6304.
Lot 6056  built March-April 1926 General Service pool  - New York,
Philadelphia, Chicago and San Francisco.
Names:
Nightingale, Nightfall, Nightmuse, Nightstar, Nightwatch, Nightvale,
Nightglen, Nightside, Nightlea and Nightrun.

Lot 6158 built 1927
Names and assignments:
Night Arch - CN
Night Flyer - GTR
Night Harbor - General Service Pool
Night Land - NYC
Night Light - NYNH&H
Night Line - GTR
Night Mantle - CN
Night Sky - General Service pool
Night View - NYC
Night Vista - NYNH&H


Lot 6304 built 1929 2 NH, 2 SP, 2 GS and 4 PRR.
Night Fern and Night Bay -NYC - plan 3980B
Night Haven and Night Cove - NYNH&H - plan 3980B
Night Trail and Night Ridge - SP - plan 3980B
Night Beam, Night Cloud, Night Glow and Night Route - PRR - plan 3980D

I checked The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment 1952 (the
earliest one that I have), it does not list the Nightstar as a PRR leased
car. Only the Night Beam, Night Cloud, Night Glow, Nightmuse, Night Route
and Nightrun are listed - by 1960 only the Night Beam and Night Route are
listed.  The Night Bay, Night Line, Nightside and Nightstar are listed in
the 1961 book Descriptive List of Cars of the Pullman Company as being owned
by Pullman.  They are gone in the 1964 Official Register.

The majority of lot 6056 was purchased by eastern railroads in 1948. The
NYNH&H got the Nightfall, Nightglen, Nightingale, Nightlea and the
Nightvale.  The B&O took the Nightwatch, while the PRR took the Nightmuse
and Nightrun.   I can find no information on the disposition of the
Nightstar in 1948.

In 1965 Jack Farris buys the Nightstar.

In Pennsy Journal Vol. 1 No. 2 Spring of 1981 Bob Reid has the all time
Pennsy Pullman and Parlor Car list,  the Nightstar is not listed.

Also in Pennsy Journal Issue 5 and 6, is the 1950 New York Division Consist
Data.  It has only three sets of trains running with 14 SB cars:
The General - Trains 48 & 49
The Spirit of St. Louis - Trains 30 & 31
The Federal - Trains 172 & 173 (most likely with the New Haven fleet of 9
cars by that time).

Sorry, I can't find any evidence that the PRR ever owned the Nightstar.
Maybe somebody else has a Pullman assignment list.

Cos
wsbcos


Jerry Shickler wrote:

> I just added a picture of the PRR Pullman sleeper 'Nightstar' to my web
> page (http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/rollstk.htm).  This car is
> located at the Lake Shore Railway museum in North East, PA.  Does anyone
> have any information on it (PRR class, etc.)?
> Thanks!
> --
> Jerry Shickler
> e-mail: geshick@velocity.net
>
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--------------8814BDB46FC9E556210F6559
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy All and Jerry:

<P>The best that I can find is:
<BR>Nightstar: built 1926, lot number 6056, plan 3980C, 14 single bedrooms
- convertible sofa - no upper berth, no smoking room, white metal wash
stands, vapor heat, mechanical a/c, 2410A trucks, Westinghouse UC Brakes.

<P>There were 30 cars built in the Night class, lots 6056, 6458, and 6304.
<BR>Lot 6056&nbsp; built March-April 1926 General Service pool&nbsp; -
New York, Philadelphia, Chicago and San Francisco.
<BR>Names:
<BR>Nightingale, Nightfall, Nightmuse, Nightstar, Nightwatch, Nightvale,
Nightglen, Nightside, Nightlea and Nightrun.

<P>Lot 6158 built 1927
<BR>Names and assignments:
<BR>Night Arch - CN
<BR>Night Flyer - GTR
<BR>Night Harbor - General Service Pool
<BR>Night Land - NYC
<BR>Night Light - NYNH&amp;H
<BR>Night Line - GTR
<BR>Night Mantle - CN
<BR>Night Sky - General Service pool
<BR>Night View - NYC
<BR>Night Vista - NYNH&amp;H
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>Lot 6304 built 1929 2 NH, 2 SP, 2 GS and 4 PRR.
<BR>Night Fern and Night Bay -NYC - plan 3980B
<BR>Night Haven and Night Cove - NYNH&amp;H - plan 3980B
<BR>Night Trail and Night Ridge - SP - plan 3980B
<BR>Night Beam, Night Cloud, Night Glow and Night Route - PRR - plan 3980D

<P>I checked <I>The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment 1952</I>
(the earliest one that I have), it does not list the Nightstar as a PRR
leased car. Only the Night Beam, Night Cloud, Night Glow, Nightmuse, Night
Route and Nightrun are listed - by 1960 only the Night Beam and Night Route
are listed.&nbsp; The Night Bay, Night Line, Nightside and Nightstar are
listed in the 1961 book <I>Descriptive List of Cars of the Pullman Company
</I>as being owned by Pullman.&nbsp; They are gone in the 1964 Official
Register.

<P>The majority of lot 6056 was purchased by eastern railroads in 1948.
The NYNH&amp;H got the Nightfall, Nightglen, Nightingale, Nightlea and
the Nightvale.&nbsp; The B&amp;O took the Nightwatch, while the PRR took
the Nightmuse and Nightrun.&nbsp;&nbsp; I can find no information on the
disposition of the Nightstar in 1948.

<P>In 1965 Jack Farris buys the Nightstar.

<P>In <I>Pennsy Journal</I> Vol. 1 No. 2 Spring of 1981 Bob Reid has the
all time Pennsy Pullman and Parlor Car list,&nbsp; the Nightstar is not
listed.

<P>Also in <I>Pennsy Journal </I>Issue 5 and 6, is the 1950 New York Division
Consist Data.&nbsp; It has only three sets of trains running with 14 SB
cars:
<BR>The General - Trains 48 &amp; 49
<BR>The Spirit of St. Louis - Trains 30 &amp; 31
<BR>The Federal - Trains 172 &amp; 173 (most likely with the New Haven
fleet of 9 cars by that time).

<P>Sorry, I can't find any evidence that the PRR ever owned the Nightstar.&nbsp;
Maybe somebody else has a Pullman assignment list.

<P>Cos
<BR>wsbcos
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>Jerry Shickler wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I just added a picture of the PRR Pullman sleeper
'Nightstar' to my web
<BR>page (<A HREF="http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/rollstk.htm">http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/rollstk.htm</A>).&nbsp;
This car is
<BR>located at the Lake Shore Railway museum in North East, PA.&nbsp; Does
anyone
<BR>have any information on it (PRR class, etc.)?
<BR>Thanks!
<BR>--
<BR>Jerry Shickler
<BR>e-mail: geshick@velocity.net

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:11:19 EST
Subject: [PRR] LinesWest back Online

Howdy all, Iaaaaahhhmmmmmmm BbbbbbbbbbbbbbaaaaaaaaaacccccccccKK!

	It's good to be back on line after learning moderation is necessary when
deleting corrupted AOL network adapters from your. Correcting the ensuing
windows crash required a complete wipe of my applications drive. In doing so I
lost some addresses I need for planning the PRR Lines West Fans Fest. I need
Chuck Blardone's e-mail address and a telephone number for Phil Ritter,
publications chairman for the Philly PRRT&HS chapter.
	Thanx in advanx

	Tom V. 

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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:49:23 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] David Letterman and a little railfanning(off topic..kinda)


  Hi You all...

   Did anyone see " Late Night with David Letterman " on Wednesday night ?
   He had Tom Hanks come on the show and over ten minutes were spent talking
   about model trains and the train Tom Hanks bought....was interesting
   and funny.....Nice to know Tom Hanks likes trains....

   Seen at the old Norfolk-Portsmouth Beltline South Norfolk yard....
   Conrail hi-cube box cars with NYC reporting marks...
   and a CSX track geometry car (looked to be a very heavily modified
   old Pullman car.)
   Makes sense since CSX and NS both own N-P Beltline (Hmmmmm i wonder
   what ever happened to Pennsy's share in this line? did it go to PC
   at the time of the merger ? was it sold off when PC went bankrupt?
   was it confered to Conrail ?
   With both CSX and NS getting Conrail would they get Conrail part
   of it if Conrail still has a part ?

   Something to think about....

                                              Til Later
                                              Hank Mummert


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Subject: [PRR] X29's in "Merchandise Service"
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 21:18:04 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I got a call today from Red Caboose...actually, I got a message...so I 
won't have the exact details until tomorrow. 

The gist, however, is that Red Caboose will be rerunning X29's in the 
"Merchandise Service" scheme...in both N and HO scales.

Full details will be released on the "Merchandise Service" announcement 
list tomorrow, along with some other "news"! (See 
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com to join the "MS" list.)

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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From: AlbertSR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:16:05 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] SPEAKING OF FREIGHT CARS

In a message dated 11/29/98 2:49:51 PM Central Standard Time,
TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes:

<< PRR-Talk@dsop.com >>
Greg and all,
It doesn't show in my index. This doesn't mean it isn't there in that time
frame, it just means to this SPF, it wasn't of sufficient interest to me as a
subject or technique to enter it in the database. I do however vaguely
remember the article.

AlbertSr@aol.com

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Subject: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 14:58:03 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/10/98 2:32 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:

>I hope that the groups active in tower preservation (including Cresson and
>RRers Mem Mus) try their darndest to save MG.  THAT is truly a unique
>tower.  It should be moved brick by brick if necessary.

I agree. Unfortunately, Peter Barton (Railroader's Memorial Museum) 
already reported on this list that they were given the opportunity, but 
it was deemed not feasible. One can assume that it would be feasible 
given an infinite supply of money, but that is not the case. The museum 
already looked at it and declined (though they removed its inards). MG's 
fate has already been sealed.

Thinking only of the main line between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, what 
towers still exist that are not already in the hands of preservationist 
groups?

What towers are in the hands of preservationists?
     HARRIS = Harrisburg - Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS
     HUNT = Huntingdon - ???

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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:32:58 -0500
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] NS Negativity #2 (was RE: Conrail Towers]

vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote:

> --On Monday, December 07, 1998, 10:37 PM +0000 PDB1854@aol.com wrote:
>
> > We can only hope that the incoming operator (NS) is at
> > least as concerned with their heritage as was (is) Conrail.
>
> They probably are ... good news if you're a member of SCV (Sons of
> Confederate Veterans).  Not so good news if you're interested in preserving
> Pennsylvania's railroad heritage.  March 1, 1998 is "Day 1" of NS in
> Pennsylvania.  Any coincidence between the towers being demo'd by that date?
>  I'll bet so.  So much for NS interested in preserving Yankee heritage.  Or
> maybe it's scorched earth.
>
> Vagel "I liked 'em better when they were a subsidiary" Keller
> Pittsburgh, PA

Guys,
let's ease up, here.

I like towers.  I've been in something like 200 towers total, and something
like
150-160 PRR towers.

(Like I said, I like towers.)

But I have no illusion that, had PRR survived, they too would have been forced
to do what essentially everyone but B&O had done by then: eliminate them.

The merits can be argued back and forth: flexibility of control, inspection of
the
train every 20 miles, etc.  On the other hand, has Conrail (or, for that
matter,
NYC) been that much worse off without the towers?  Really? And now throw
in all of the associated costs.

Like steam locomotives, like vacuum tubes, like dirigibles, like open-hearth
furnaces, other ways of reaching the same goal are now available. Let's
consider
ourselves lucky that steel wheel on steel rail is still viable.

I hope that the groups active in tower preservation (including Cresson and
RRers Mem Mus) try their darndest to save MG.  THAT is truly a unique
tower.  It should be moved brick by brick if necessary.

--
Mark


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:12:35 -0800
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: [PRR] USP "Silver Rapids"

Hi All,

I received confirmation from Mark at USP that their #9509 is, indeed the
"Silver Rapids" and is available in N-Scale.

Now. Have any PRR N-Scalers built up this car using their kit? What did
you use for a "core kit"? Any ideas for modeling this car in N-Scale
would be greatly appreciated. Next study is which carsides to use for
the "Blue Rapids". I'm excited to have finally decided which car to do
first using these new products.

Note for Jerry: Can I get this #9509 N-Scale kit through Merchandise
Service? I realize that you don't stock a lot of N-Scale yet but seem to
recall that you stated you could get them? If so, can you go ahead and
order me a set? The N-Scale stock number would be #N9509, I believe.
Please advise as to possibilty and price, including shipping.

Thanks to all for the detailed reponses as to trains and routings
carrying this car and the Blue Rapids. Though no one specifically stated
so it seems obvious from the trains referred to that these cars did
travel in a couple of trains that ran over the Great Pittsburgh
Division, circa 1949.

Thanks again,

Ron.



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Subject: [PRR] Freight Car Survey
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 08:50:08 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

In response to the "AMB Wants To Know" query, and since the Locomotive 
Survey seemed to be very worthwhile -- both to ourselves and to several 
vendors to whom I provided the results -- let's do a Freight Car Survey. 
We'll include cabin cars, MoW equipment, and "related" equipment.

>From now through Dec. 15th, please submit up to three PRR freight cars 
you'd like to see produced. Please pick only three, and specify exact 
class/subclass. Send your response to me, not the list (to avoid massive 
traffic), and I'll summarize accordingly.

If you desire a model that is already offered, please indicate why you 
want another...is the a problem with the one that is available?

In a few weeks we'll do a Passenger Car Survey.

My votes:

original (25', I think) TrucTrain trailers
N8 cabin

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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] AMB wants your response!
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:15:47 -0500


-----Original Message-----
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com <TGREGMRTN@aol.com>
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Date: Thursday, December 10, 1998 3:16 AM
Subject: [PRR] AMB wants your response!


snip>>Hey yuze Gize,
   I have also>told him [AMB] that I would like to see a floor for the GS
gondola (wood version).>Here's your chance guys show him your support!
EMAIL HIM!  He's on our side.
>   Greg Martin

Greg and gang,

I was always under the impression that the PRR class GS (all subclasses) had
steel floors. Yes-No? This seems to be further substantiated by Bob Smith's
article "Pennsylvania GS class Gondolas" in MLM December 1990 and also the
Cincinnati Division Modelers - April 1998 matrix sheet "PRR GONDOLAS". Are
we asking for something that was not prototypical? Clarify or enlighten me
please. Thanx.

Al
>
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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:08:13 -0800
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: [PRR] Track Pan Data

Hi All,

Thanks to the generosity of list-member Stephen Hoxie I now have a copy
of the Feb. '93 "Milepost" which contains the article on the Wilmore
track pans.

Answers to some of our questions were found in this article:

-At 2685 feet Wilmore's were the world's longest pans.
-Each pan was 26 in. wide with a 4 in. lip overhanging inward to control
splashing.
-Pan depth was 7 in. except for track 1 which was 8 in. to better
accomodate M1's.
-Water supplied by gravity through a 20 in. main with 20 lbs. of
pressure from a nearby reservoir created by PRR's Wilmore Dam.
-By 1929 water usage was 1.5 million gallons a day.
-Added demand during WW2 met by supplementing supply with municipal
service at 85 lbs. from nearby Benn's Creek.
-After the war a water treatment plant was added.
-Water level in the pans was measured by an indicator or equalization
pipe, one per pan, located at the mid-point of each pan. This pipe led
to a valve house in which a 14 in. round tank housed a float that in
turn controlled a pilot valve to the main 10 in. valve in the pit below.
Water was admitted through the 4 in. supply lines that ran underground,
through the undertrack tunnels, and up to the pans. There the supply
pipes were joined via a flexible hose that allowed for
expansion/contraction to a 4 in. elbow which fed water through openings
in the sides of the pans.
-There were three valve houses at Wilmore, one opposite the boiler plant
and the other two a thousand feet in each direction.
-The undertrack tunnels which housed the supply lines and indicator
pipes and carried off the drainage were 4 ft. diameter bolted cast iron
sections. There were ten tunnels under the Wilmore pans; approx. every
300 ft., at right angles to the track.
-Runoff at Wilmore was not recycled but drained into the Little
Conemaugh River.
-To control freezing steam was injected into the water supply lines.
-A separate closed hot water system was used as a thawing system for
frozen splash water. The 2 in. dia. thawing pipes were located on top of
the ties near their ends for the length of the pans and under the tracks
for some 800 feet beyond the leaving ends of the pans. Thawing pipe
water temperature was 200+ degrees.
-The boiler plant at Wilmore contained 5 boilers; 2 for steam injection,
2 for the thawing system and 1 backup. Manned 24 hours a day between
Nov. 1 and April 1.
-When it was too cold for the thawing pipes to work effectively gangs of
up to 50 men were used to chip the ice.
-All pans removed by fall of 1953.
-Boiler plant removed in 1955.

BTW, the article refers to an earlier comprehensive article on track
pans in the April '92 Milepost. Anyone have this and care to comment on
what it covers.

Hope this is as interesting to some as it was to me. Thanks, Stephen,
for the loan of your copy. It will be kept safe until you are ready for
it back.

Later,

Ron.


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From: Sean121982@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:36:19 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers

i believe that ALTO at altoona, SO at south fork, and C at johnstown arent in
the hands of preservationist groups. 

sean mcdonnell

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From: PDB1854@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:14:15 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers

The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum removed the contents of SO; including
most of the interlocking machine in the early Summer of 1997.  A regional
trails group, developing the "Path of the Flood" trail (St. Michael to
Johnstown), has been working with Conrail for an option on the tower.  Conrail
does require that the new owner move the tower off railroad property, and this
is a problem for the trails group.

The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum has a signed agreement with the
railroad that, in the event ALTO tower becomes excess to the railroad, we have
a first option on its purchase.

Peter Barton
Executive Director
Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum

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From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: [PRR] X 42 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:02:50 -0800

A friend of mine tells me that he believes one of these cars still exist in
up state new york somewhere. Can anyone support this?
Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards


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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:02:07 -0500
From: Vincent Troia <troiaeye@geocities.com>
Subject: [PRR] Subroadbed

Dear Fellow Model Railroaders,

I was hoping someone could refresh my memory regarding subroadbed
choices.  A friend of mine is building a new layout and asked about
"Micor", not
sure about the spelling.  He said that he was told that it was a good
alternative to Homosote.  Micor exhibits better moisture protection?  I
faintly recall a discussion about this about a year ago on one of my
railroad lists?  Thank you for your input.

Vincent
PRR N Scale

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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:11:38 -0600
From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd)
Subject: [PRR] "The Limited"

Hello all,

Just a notes concerning "The Limited";

Presently there is a poll running on "The Limited" concerning a vital
engineering issue.   This poll is comming down to the end of its run, and I
want to noodge all concerned to drop by and give us their input.

Also, I have been working on the restructuring of the site and plan to post
a massive rebuild on 1/1/99.   This will include two new chapters,
streamlining of the link tree (fewer layers to go through) and
updates/additions to the topic material.

As time goes by, I am receiving more and more input from the hobby
community on specific articles, background material, etc.   This is
essential, as I cannot hope to build this site alone.   I have just posted
a Writers Guide to the site (in the Links/Free Downloads presently- I plan
to streamline that access with the new uploads).

If you are interested in telling the story of your favorite road and/or
your favorite passenger train, here is a forum just for you.   This
particularly applies to those who follow the less well known roads.

I am pleased to say that "The Limited" recently celebrated its first year
on the web.   In this time, it has grown from a single page to some 250
pages.   As you can imagine, there have been growing pains, but I think (!)
that the new structure will resolve the last problems and we can plow ahead
on telling the passenger service story.

My thanks to everyone who has visited the site, and my best wishes to all
for the comming holidays.   May you all get a train set for Christmas!

Bob

Robert A. Boyd

========
Those Classic Trains
"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking"

"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service
http://www.thoseclassictrains.com
========



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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Subroadbed
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:42:02 -0500


-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent Troia <troiaeye@geocities.com>
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>; penn-central@smellycat.com
<penn-central@smellycat.com>; n_scale_stuff@onelist.com
<n_scale_stuff@onelist.com>; n_scale@onelist.com <n_scale@onelist.com>;
n@onelist.com <n@onelist.com>
Date: Saturday, December 12, 1998 11:09 AM
Subject: [PRR] Subroadbed


Vincent,

Re Micor - I remember reading the article about Micor also. Following that I
used it as a base for a model of an air museum I was building for a client.
It was the only time I ever used it having used homosote for years on my own
personal layout. Too be truthful I wasn't that impressed with the Micor to
change my standard of using of homosote. But this is a personal opinion.
However, the air museum model seems to have held up pretty well.

Al



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From: Da72jmk@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:13:21 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] AMB wants your response!

Anyone know how a PRR modeler stuck miles away from the Pennsy (Vermont) could
get a copy of the Cincinnati Division Modelers's matrix sheet on gondolas?

John Keel

In a message dated 12/11/98 8:48:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes:

<< I was always under the impression that the PRR class GS (all subclasses)
had
 steel floors. Yes-No? This seems to be further substantiated by Bob Smith's
 article "Pennsylvania GS class Gondolas" in MLM December 1990 and also the
 Cincinnati Division Modelers - April 1998 matrix sheet "PRR GONDOLAS". Are
 we asking for something that was not prototypical? Clarify or enlighten me
 please. Thanx.
 
 Al >>

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:08:43 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] AMB wants your response!

First I wrote :
<< snip Hey yuze Gize,
    I have also>told him [AMB] that I would like to see a floor for the GS
 gondola (wood version).  Here's your chance guys show him your support!
 EMAIL HIM!  He's on our side.
    Greg Martin>>

Then in a message abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes:
 
 <Greg and gang,
 
 I was always under the impression that the PRR class GS (all subclasses) had
 steel floors. Yes-No? This seems to be further substantiated by Bob Smith's
 article "Pennsylvania GS class Gondolas" in MLM December 1990 and also the
 Cincinnati Division Modelers - April 1998 matrix sheet "PRR GONDOLAS." Are
 we asking for something that was not prototypical? Clarify or enlighten me
 please. Thanx.
 
 Al >

Al and all,
   Thanks for checking for me but on page 74, R. W.  Smith says and I quote:
"One other minor change, not mentioned so far, was a one of a kind GSG car,
which was given a wood floor apparently as an experiment." 
     Now, the question is there enough interest to support the manufacture of
a wood floor.  I wood certainly like to have one.  But I may be the only one.
     Greg Martin  


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From: Eichhorn@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:35:42 EST
Subject: [PRR] E-R Models RF16

Hi Guys,
I have been doing some research on the E-R models RF16 and comparing it to all
of the prototype photos that I possess.  And, I have some observations and
also some questions that I hope someone can provide some answers to.
1.  I can find no photographic evidence that the RF16 (Pennsy variant) ever
had its horns located other than on the right side of the roof, above the
engineer.  The model has 2 horns (facing in opposite directions) on both sides
of the cab roof.  Photos indicate either 1,2 or 3 all facing forward.  Has
anyone noted a horn placement contrary to what I have observed?
2.  I can find no photographic evidence that the prototype RF16 ever had 4
grab irons in the place where the nose ladder usually resided.  I could only
find the ladder or nothing at all.   Am I correct in this assumption?
3.  Did all RF16's have a sand filler receptacle (terminology?) located on
each side of the upper pilot extension?  The model does not make any provision
for that item.
4.  The model is rather sparse in detail on the roof area.  Photos indicate
the presence of a couple of probe like projections just aft of the exhaust and
there are no lift rings provided either.  
5.  The single narrow stripe has a couple of oddities as well.  On the model,
it extends over the ladder rungs (which doesn't look to cool) and it doesn't
extend into the doorway cavities as it should per the prototype photographs.
But, that is easily corrected.
6.  Tonight I performed the required surgery to eliminate the antiquated
couplers in preparation for the installation of some Kaydees.  Now I will have
to construct the pads that will be required to install the new couplers.  E-R
didn't do a very good job in that respect IMO.
7.  The exhaust stack will also require opening up, as they have provided only
a solid disk to represent that detail.
8.  Another list member commented to me that the running characteristics of
the engine are very good and that coupled with its weight should make it a
fine runner.  I sure hope so, because it's going to require some more surgery
and detail work to bring it somewhere close to P2k quality.

Regards,
George   

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From: "Rail Classics" <railclas@erols.com>
Subject: [PRR] 
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:42:10 -0500

Hello PRR Fans;

We at RAIL CLASSICS, have had many requests from our web site seeking
information how to purchase the R-50b. There is now a list of those dealers
who have the R-50b in stock at our web site www.railclassics.com.
We suggest that you don't delay because we are sold out of this project.

EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS



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From: "Rail Classics" <railclas@erols.com>
Subject: [PRR] 
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:01:20 -0500

Hello PRR Fans;

Rail Classics again, see what happens when you hit the "Send" button too
quickly. Forget to mention that we do have in stock at this time in limited
quantity the 2D-P5 trucks in Friction, Roller and Hyatt Roller bearing
configuration. See your dealers.


EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS


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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] AMB wants your response!
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:12:39 -0500

>Greg responds to,

>Al and all,
>   Thanks for checking for me but on page 74, R. W.  Smith says and I
quote:
>"One other minor change, not mentioned so far, was a one of a kind GSG car,
>which was given a wood floor apparently as an experiment."
>     Now, the question is there enough interest to support the manufacture
of
>a wood floor.  I wood certainly like to have one.  But I may be the only
one.
>     Greg Martin


Greg,

Thanks for the enlightenment. I hope you will have only one class GS car
w/wood floor running around your layout. What was its number?

Al


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Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:41:01 -0800
From: "Eugene E. Deimling" <eedlg@concentric.net>
Subject: [PRR] Diesel Painting

I was reading a review in the latest issue of the "Keystone" and saw a
reference to painting of PRR diesels with both Brunswick Green and
black.   The article mentioned that the handrails, steps, walkways and
underframe were painted black with a BG body.   Is this correct?
I understood that the underframe and trucks were black but the handrails
etc.????

Gene Deimling


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Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:52:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Mark Bej wrote:

> Is PITT still standing, or did I-579 wipe it out?

it would have been the East Busway, not 579, if something had, but PAT
(who runs the buses) is using it for some sort of office.

-D



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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:17:39 -0500 (EST)

> On 12/10/98 2:32 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:
> 
> >I hope that the groups active in tower preservation (including Cresson and
> >RRers Mem Mus) try their darndest to save MG.  THAT is truly a unique
> >tower.  It should be moved brick by brick if necessary.
> 
> I agree. Unfortunately, Peter Barton (Railroader's Memorial Museum) 
> already reported on this list that they were given the opportunity, but 
> it was deemed not feasible. One can assume that it would be feasible 

I have to respectfully disagree.

If LEMO (a.k.a. J) can but cut up into thirds and reconstructed,
surely MG can be removed as well.  The general location is inaccessible,
but the tower could be dismantled without interfering with the main
line.  The 'problem' is probably that the access is via a bad dirt
road, and that there is no direct (read: without walking across the
main line) road access.

> What towers are in the hands of preservationists?
>      HARRIS = Harrisburg - Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS
>      HUNT = Huntingdon - ???

THat's it, I believe.

Active towers: ALTO (Altoona), C (Johnstown)

Is PITT still standing, or did I-579 wipe it out?

--
Mark


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:05:37 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] PRR modeling notes for old hands and green hands


 Hi Folks....

  This is gonna be a kinda "Ole Ray" type post (something you used to find
  in the back of 50's-60's Model Railroader magazines.

  For the old hands....As some of you know...I asked for and received
  a copy of the plans from one of the helpful guys here on the list.
  I'm modeling Baltimore in the late 40's to early 50's time frame.
  One thing you kinda need to model Baltimore is the business car
"Chesapeake". Since Bachmann observation is very close to the class
  Z-74 ,i'm using that as the basis for my model. Sure there are some things
  like too many windows on one side and the interior arrangement is wrong.
  But i'll just change what i can and live with the rest until the far off
  day comes i have some extra cars i can burn to get 100 o/o accurate model.
  Anyway...to get to what this part of the post is about....I'm using the 
  old 1971 MR plans by Mr. Geissel and a right side pic from a 1995 issue
  of the Keystone and a left side pic from the first PRR color guide.
  One of the things i found out about PRR Z class cars is that no two are
  the same...even if they started out identical when built by Pullman
  in 1927. Luckly "Chesapeake was'nt modified much outwardly over the 
  years. But what i did'nt know was that it seems Geissel's drawings
  seem to be based on a earlier version of this car. Based on the photo's
  it seems the equipment under the car was changed around quite a bit...
  well at least on one side anyway. Another thing is that what is in the
  drawings and pictures is very different from what Bachmann did underneath
  the model. So this basically goes to prove the time worn adage that
  you should always have pictures of a given car...engine...what have you
  to get it close or exact. One thing i will also note here....It seems
  to me that Bachmann was out to make a Generic version of the Z-74.
  My basis for this is observations from the many pictures of these cars.
  I do have a question...Mr. Geissel states that Z-74 car "Pittsburg"
  was numbered 7510...then later 7507. In the second PRR color guide
  there is a Z-74 numbered 7507...but named "Quaker City"...is this the 
  same car or a earlier car? Anyone know ?

  Now something for the green hands among us...and maybe the old ones too.
  I'm starting to weather my equipment more now. One thing to keep in mind
  when weathering equipment...especially locomotives is the type of service,
  time between servicing ,year modeled,modifications that would effect
  weathering,divisional differences and the human factor. Keep in mind what
people would service more often on a locomotive or car...where they would be
likely to use things like walkways and handrails..(for paint wear).
  Also where the road or yard crew would walk on and enter and exit a loco
  motive or car. I like to leave some of the hand rails on my equipment
  unpainted sometimes to add the effect of wear from the many gloved hands
  that have worn on them. They same applies to tender and cab decks...foot
  boards ,pilots and also passenger and cabin car platforms. Where you
  would have people walk around you would have less dirt and dust.
  A freshly serviced loco would have cleaner running gear and boiler
  walkways. A engine coming in off the road or being used in a yard
  would have soot and cinders on the wayways and the back of the tender.
  (cinders tended to shake off the top and sides of boilers down to the
  walkways.) Road dirt would fly up from wheels on to the next car
  behind it...also it would splash up from the ground if the car would
  sit in a yard or siding for a while and also drip down the sides
  in the same manner. Just something to keep in mind.

  By no means is this mean't to tell anyof you how to run you model
  railroad...but it is something to keep in mind if you weather your
  equipment. 

  You all have fun....as always

                                             Til Later
                                             Hank Mummert


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 06:16:24 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/13/98 9:17 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:

>I have to respectfully disagree.
>
>If LEMO (a.k.a. J) can but cut up into thirds and reconstructed,
>surely MG can be removed as well.  The general location is inaccessible,
>but the tower could be dismantled without interfering with the main
>line.  The 'problem' is probably that the access is via a bad dirt
>road, and that there is no direct (read: without walking across the
>main line) road access.

There's one big BUT...

LEMO was wood; MG is brick. Big difference!

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:31:18 -0500
From: "s.a. mccall" <hosam@amaze.net>
Subject: [PRR] Baldwin RF16's


Greetings Shark Fans,

  The E-R models seems to be based on the old Model Power shell.  This
shell is a copy of the NYC version in later years after the grab irons were
added to the engineers side ofnose.  PRR added ladders on engineers side
only.  There is a single grab iron just below and in front of the cab
windows, both sides.  There are 2 long grabs on each side of the nose doors
and don't forget the handle on the right hand door.  These doors open
outward and hinges are on outside of nose.  There are 2 grabs just above
the front windows, one over each window. 
  The NYC and B&O units had single horns, foward facing on engineers side
and rearward facing on firemans side.  PRR used a 3 chime type horn mounted
above the engineer side.
  From pictures all units had a sand hatch on the pilot extension.  There
is also a grab iron just below the sand filler hatches on both sides.
There is also a rectangular opening for the coupler lift bar on each side
of this extension.
  There are 4 lifting eyes on the hatch over the engine, 2 at the front and
2 at the rear.  These are flat plate type with holes for hooks not the
eyebolt type.
  I may have missed some smaller details, but those are some of the more
obvious ones......

         	HOSAM
I never met a railroad paint scheme I didn't like!
    HO custom painted models by SAM

 



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Subject: [PRR] York Club Visit / Mechanicsburg Club OH
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 10:46:07 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Yesterday I had the opportunity to visit the Miniature Railroad Club of 
York, founded in the 1940s and in their present location since 1955ish.

Nice HO layout featuring mostly PRR power. In short, there is a 
dual-track mainline that follows the perimeter of the room. Down one side 
it is actually three-tracked. Of particular interest on this side are 
consecutive PRR signal bridges with PRR position light signals that 
operate automatically. Way cool!

A dual-track branch line runs around the perimeter on the edge of the 
aisle, but instead of completing the loop at the entrance, each side has 
a hidden return loop.

There is a small yard at one end of the branch and a coal mine complex at 
the other. There is a city scene with a decent steel mill scene.

There is a large yard area with two yards and a passenger terminal, wye 
to a diesel shop, and a decent sized steam shop.

Notable PRR running yesterday included an I-1, a T1, a pair of freight 
Sharks, a pair of (brass) Centipedes, a pre-war Washington View tail car, 
and one of the Eagle sleepers. All of the equipment is owned by the 
members and goes home each night, according to the club brochure. None is 
club owned.

Worth a visit. They'll be open yet next weekend.

RELATED: The Keystone Model Railroad Historical Society will have their 
annual open house next weekend. They also model HO, with some 
recognizable scenes from central Pennsylvania.
     See http://kmrhs.dsop.com

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:05:16 -0500
From: "s.a. mccall" <hosam@amaze.net>
Subject: [PRR] BLW RF-16's

Greetings Shark Fans,

  The E-R models seems to be based on the old Model Power shell.  This
shell is a copy of the NYC version in later years after the grab irons were
added to the engineers side ofnose.  PRR added ladders on engineers side
only.  There is a single grab iron just below and in front of the cab
windows, both sides.  There are 2 long grabs on each side of the nose doors
and don't forget the handle on the right hand door.  These doors open
outward and hinges are on outside of nose.  There are 2 grabs just above
the front windows, one over each window. 
  The NYC and B&O units had single horns, foward facing on engineers side
and rearward facing on firemans side.  PRR used a 3 chime type horn mounted
above the engineer side.
  From pictures all units had a sand hatch on the pilot extension.  There
is also a grab iron just below the sand filler hatches on both sides.
There is also a rectangular opening for the coupler lift bar on each side
of this extension.
  There are 4 lifting eyes on the hatch over the engine, 2 at the front and
2 at the rear.  These are flat plate type with holes for hooks not the
eyebolt type.
  I may have missed some smaller details, but those are some of the more
obvious ones......


         	HOSAM
I never met a railroad paint scheme I didn't like!
    HO custom painted models by SAM

 



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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:33:49 EST
Subject: [PRR] More on the X40 class.

Greg,

	Last night I stumbled onto Rail Classics blurb on its upcoming release of X40
class boxes and discovered than only the single-car X40C class had end doors.
I checked the class tracings I printed off of Rob Schoenberg's web site. I'll
stick to modeling and X40 and X40B. For the X40B I'll be using Walther's 60'
MS1 set. While Champ's MS1 set includes data for 40', 50' and 60' cars, it
requires the aluminum stripe to be painted.
	I'm finishing up three scratch built FM flats. I'll be painting MW gray one I
can find numbers and the third FCC. Then it's be time to get back to some
styrene modeling -- H30, H30A and H32 covered hoppers and that Martin
Brothers' Ore Jenny.
	I'm also putting the finishing detailing touches to a Cary H10-44 with a
Smokey Valley underframe, a better representation of the H10-44 than Walther's
H10/12-44. I've purchased the H-12-44 Phase 2 dress up kit to convert my
Walther's H10/12 	Would you know if the H-10/12 radiator fan was visible
through the radiator screen. I cut a hole in the Cary body and have enough
space to install one if it was.

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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:39:42 -0500 (EST)

> There's one big BUT...
> LEMO was wood; MG is brick. Big difference!

Jerry,
you know, 20/20 hindsight.  I thought to include that statement just
as I was hitting the "s"end key ...


Stupid me.  Thank you, Sir, may I have another?  Thank you, Sir,
may I have another?  Thank you, Sir, may I have another?

--
Mark


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:34:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr."  <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers

> 
> Is PITT still standing, or did I-579 wipe it out?


PITT is still there.  I photographed it from the trainshed walkway this past 
summer.  Transit police now have their offices in the building.


Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551-5926
409/740-4540;  fax 409/740-5002
harperd@tamug.tamu.edu


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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:26:15 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers

For a photo of UN on the flatcar, go to:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/rotigel/TEP/outhouse.jpg

Rick

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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:21:00 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers

In New Castle, PA we just got done moving an ex B&O tower, "UN", from a
location on a hillside along the CSX main.  We cut it in half, loaded the
halves on a flatcar and moved it by rail.  The building is wood, 12' x 18' and
we did it for about $2,500.

Rick

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From: "Laird, Bill" <Bill.Laird@COASTALCORP.COM>
Subject: [PRR] Triumph II
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:17:20 -0600

Barnard, Roberts and Company, publishers of Triumph I, (The PRR Altoona to
Pitcairn 1846-1996) has sent out a brochure announcing the publication of
the second book in the Triumph series, Triumph II (Philadelphia to
Harrisburg).  This time the book is authored by David W. Messer and edited
by Charles S. Roberts, (the "somewhat contraversial" author of Triumph I).

The brochure states: "Triumph II relates the amazing saga of the
Philadelphia Division from Philadelphia to Harrisubrg and Enola from 1828 to
1998, a dramatic story so pivotal in the history of PRR, railroad
transportation and the nation.  Following the bestselling and widely
acclaimed Triumph I, (their words), this offering of 400 pages features 769
maps, illustrations and photographs (160 in full color), most published for
the first time and including an exclusive aerial study in color commissioned
specifically for this book.  Hardbound with five-color cover, enamel paper
throughout, 8 1/2 x 11" format."

Pre-publication offer is $ 49.00 (suggested retail is $ 65.00), plus $ 6.00
delivery charge.  Publication date anticipated in early 1999.

Anyone interested who did not get a pre-publication brochure/offer may
contact Barnard, Roberts and Company, Inc. at 2606 Willow Avenue, P.O. Box
7344, Baltimore, MD 21227, telephone (410) 247-2242.

Bill Laird
Houston, Texas



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From: John Cooper <johncoop@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:48:49 -0800



> ----------
> From: 	Derrick J Brashear[SMTP:shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG]
> Sent: 	Sunday, December 13, 1998 6:52 PM
> To: 	prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: 	Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers
> 
> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Mark Bej wrote:
> 
> > Is PITT still standing, or did I-579 wipe it out?
> 
> it would have been the East Busway, not 579, if something had, but PAT
> (who runs the buses) is using it for some sort of office.
> 
> -D
> 
It is being used as a police station/headquarters.

John

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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:45:53 -0500 (EST)
From: alcoman <alcoman@net.bluemoon.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] RR chat room.

We also have a Real Time chat going as well

RAILFAN IRC CHAT! As we run an Internet Relay Chat Server on our Internet
Service we have a Railfan channel setup. Not only are regular IRC Clients
such as Pirch, mIRC, Ircle and ircII able to join, but we have a Java
Web Client that works with any Java capable Netscape web browser! 

You are welcome to try it out anytime at http://www.railfan.net/irc/ If
you prefer a normal IRC client just connect to IRC.Railfan.net on port
6660 to 6670 and /join #Railfan ,it promises to be a great place to trade
stories, pictures and sounds of trains and railroading! 

People are usually in there 24 hours a day, seven days a week.  Stop in
sometime and let them know you are a railfan

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 Boilerbob7@aol.com wrote:

> There is a chat room strictly for railfans at 
> <A HREF="http://www.trainorders.com/">Trainorders Home Page</A> 
> 
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> 
> 

William J. Enser         Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations 
alcoman@bluemoon.net     net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System    
x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network   
http://www.bluemoon.net  mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud        
bbs.bluemoon.net         irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server

Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net                                   


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:35:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF16's

>  
>    The E-R models seems to be based on the old Model Power shell.  

This is old news. Model Power imported the shark from Roco. E-R Models
announced they were importing their shark from Roco. In fact, this info has
been on my diesel shells page for "a long time", and has been seen in many
other forums. I don't know why it's come as a surprise to so many.

-D


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 14:36:13 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/14/98 2:17 PM, Laird, Bill (Bill.Laird@COASTALCORP.COM) wrote:

>Barnard, Roberts and Company, publishers of Triumph I, (The PRR Altoona to
>Pitcairn 1846-1996) has sent out a brochure announcing the publication of
>the second book in the Triumph series, Triumph II (Philadelphia to
>Harrisburg).  This time the book is authored by David W. Messer and edited
>by Charles S. Roberts, (the "somewhat contraversial" author of Triumph I).
>
>The brochure states: "Triumph II relates the amazing saga of the
>Philadelphia Division from Philadelphia to Harrisubrg and Enola from 1828 to
>1998, a dramatic story so pivotal in the history of PRR, railroad
>transportation and the nation.  Following the bestselling and widely
>acclaimed Triumph I, (their words), this offering of 400 pages features 769
>maps, illustrations and photographs (160 in full color), most published for
>the first time and including an exclusive aerial study in color commissioned
>specifically for this book.  Hardbound with five-color cover, enamel paper
>throughout, 8 1/2 x 11" format."

Dang...just peed my pants! 

True, the first volume had a lot of controversial copy, but all seem to 
agree that the photos were great. Volume II involves the area I want to 
model, so naturally I can't wait -- especially with "aerial studies"!!!

I had thought the Philadelphia Terminal was going to be Volume II. Must 
be III or IV. I know V was slated to be the Maryland Division...a "must 
have" for us Northern Central fans!

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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Subject: [PRR] Bowser Cabins
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 15:59:12 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Bowser offers N5 cabins lettered for "Railway Express Agency" as well as 
"American Railway Express". 

The former is a fairly accurate rendering and matches a photo of the same 
car number in one of the equipment guides.

I have never heard of the latter. Was there an "American Railway 
Express"? Or was this a error on Bowser's part? Or are the terms 
interchangable?

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:04:55 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR modeling notes for old hands and green hands
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com



Good thing to share--good info.

SGT York


On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:05:37 -0500 (EST) bubbles@visi.net writes:
>
> Hi Folks....
>
>
snip snip

>  Now something for the green hands among us...and maybe the old ones 
>too.
>  I'm starting to weather my equipment more now. One thing to keep in 
>mind

snippity snip

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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 16:38:40 CST
Subject: [PRR] News briefs...

Hi, all,

Talked to a friend of mine over the weekend who does heavy electrical 
maintenance.  He was at the LTV steel plant on Chicago's south side where 
the two Hulett unloaders are still in operation and talked to some of the 
guys who maintain them.  Apparently the southerly of the two is set up for 
remote control from the level where the walking beam moves back and forth.  
As my friend told it, the newer guys find it easier to control the vertical 
arm this way, while the older hands prefer the original operator location 
about 15 ft. above the clamshell in the arm.  One difference in the way 
these Huletts are operated is that since they are unloading coal from 
open barges that have come up the Illinois River, the clamshell is 
roatated 90 degrees so that its bite is parallel to the long axis of the 
barge.  Unloading a laker by contrast involves keeping the clamshell 
perpendicular to the boat.  Thus the LTV HUletts are constantly spinning 
at 90 degree angles between scooping and unloading the clamshell.  It's 
fun to watch but makes it harder to learn from inside the arm.  My friend 
thinks he might be able to get in there with a video camera.  BTW, wasn't 
there a video advertised in the KEYSTONE on Huletts?  Anyone know if it's 
still available?

Second, as you saw posted last week, the original Pullman administration 
building on Chicago's south side was torched.  Read in the Sunday paper 
that the worst destruction was in a later addition that was going to be 
razed anyway and that the main building itself, while seriously damaged, 
may be restorable.  The hope of the area residents is to have a museum of 
Pullman articfacts in it.  We'll see...

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:55:32 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: [PRR] BP-20..learned something today

Hi all,

I learned something today.  Remember BEFORE miracle and Liberty, when we
discussed kitbashing a BP-20 out of two BF-16s?  I think the complaint was
made that it was OK, but that the BF-16 failed to duplicate the curved
section of the upper side grill on the BP-20.  Well, I was reading the
following excerpt from the Pennsy Journal, V1 #1, by Bob Reid on Jerry's
web site

"5770 and 5771 differ slightly from all others in that the first air intake
is rectangular in shape. Subsequent units have a piece of sheet metal
shaped like an arch. Likewise, the rear air intake has been changed. 5770B
is similar to its original mates."

The photos on the site bear this out.  This means that the Miracle Castings
units should NOT be numbered 5770, 5770B, or 5771, and that there IS a
prototype for the square grills from bashing two RF-16s!!!!  Hmmmm, now
there's a rivet counters delight!  (geeee, I hope I haven't made anyone
have to renumber (repaint) a BP-20 <G>)

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry

PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:10:26 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Cabins

American Railway Express was an ancestor of Railway Express Agency. 
Details of the history may be had in Vic Roseman's book _Railway Express
An Overview_ published by Rocky Mountain Publishing Company.  The
publisher also publishes "Model Railroading " Magazine; I think the book
is a reprint of a series from the magazine.  

Steve Bartlett

Jerry wrote:
> 
>............. Was there an "American Railway
> Express"? Or was this a error on Bowser's part? Or are the terms
> interchangable?...............
>

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From: "Gripp, William  [NCSUS]" <WGRIPP@NCSUS.JNJ.COM>
Subject: RE: [PRR] E-R Models RF16
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:18:47 -0500


> Regarding the details, please consider that ALL of the Baldwin Sharks
> that exist today were New York Central owned.  It is entirely possible
> that they worked from recent pictures and measurements taken from those
> units.  Putting couplers in the front of the Model Power units required a
> bit of fussing, too. 
> 
My understanding was that ER is using the SAME body molds that MP used (both
are/were made by Roco) and only the drive was changed.


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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:21:32 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: [PRR] 2/4 track module locale (was All Right...)

Hi all,

I'm moving a discussion from the PRRMO list (don't know what PRRMO is? see
http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com/ and get with the program!) as I had more
questions and could use more advice (apologies to dual listers for double
posts on this)

I had asked about 2 or 4 track locations, with catenary, next to navigable
water so that I could use the Walthers tugboat and a Sheepscott derrick
barge.  Both Mark and Neil suggested areas around Perryville/Port
Deposit...NO FAIR! (since I model the port road already!).  However, they
reminded me of a particular locale on the C&PD which might make a
verrrrrrry interesting module! Minnick, MP 2.  Here the B&O crosses over
the C&PD, the C&PD is double tracked under catenary and there is a marine
service facility at the waters edge (with a half sunken tugboat last I
saw).  It was also at Minnick where access to the small yard at Perryville
was achieved, so there should be a turnout on the south side of the tracks,
along with a PRR signal bridge.   The only problem with this module is that
it would be quite high due to the B&O bridge, and fairly complex (and I
wanted to start out easier <G>)

Mark also suggested the area around BELL, north of Wilmington DE.  (I used
to live in beautiful Claymont, DE, about 4 miles from BELL)  Does anyone
have photos of the area from BEFORE I-495.  That is to say, what was on the
NW side of the tracks before all that pavement?!

Are there any similar locations on the NEC _SOUTH_ of Wilmington (between
Wilmington and Baltimore)?  I seem to recall somewhere where the tracks (2
track territory?) cross a headwater of the Chesapeake on a low (near water
level) bridge.  If my (failing) memory serves me right, this would be a
very interesting module, mostly of water, plus some marsh.  Please help!

Happy Rails,
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry

PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com
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From: "Laird, Bill" <Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com>
Subject: [PRR] ER Models PRR Pickup
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:45:01 -0600

Yesterday I bought one of the new ER Models PRR 1950's Chevy pickup trucks.
Very nicely done.  Truck is tuscan with gold Pennsylvania Railroad on the
doors along with a red/gold keystone.  Pickup bed is a brown wood grain
plastic.  Overall I think the truck looks like the restored one on display
this year at Railfest and featured in a past issue of The Keystone.
Allright, it is missing the "Blow 2 Shorts To Pass" lettering on the
tailgate.

Bill Laird
Houston, Texas



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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:10:17 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] American Railway Express Co.

Yes, there was an American Railway Express Company.

It started out sometime around WW1, as a merger of
several express companies, including the Adams
Express Company which, I believe, had been THE
express company on the pre-WW1 PRR. It ended in the
merger which formed the Railway Express Agency in 1929.

On the other hand, I don't know if the PRR lettered
any cabins for the express company.

===
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob




 
_________________________________________________________
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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:08:24 EST
Subject: [PRR] H33 hoppers

I continue to labor on the Covered Hopper Lettering article I promised to the
Keystone last May...

Everyone would agree that the PRR H34 through H34D classes were early and late
PS-2 designs; P-S Butler Pa even assembled the H34A and H34D cars.  Turning to
the H33 car, I see a covered hopper that was all-welded, but otherwise seems
to resemble the 1958-cu. ft. design ACF offered before 1940.  All resources I
have use words like "Altoona designed."  Does anyone know of material that
might establish a relationship of these 200 cars (built Altoona 1953) to ACF?

Also, is there any source that could tell us what customer and lading
justified roller bearing trucks at this early date?  Freight car list (FCL)
sources seem to indicate there were VERY FEW roller bearing equipped freight
cars built in 1953.

I hope THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE SOMEWHERE.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY

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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:41:52 -0600
From: Andy Cich <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Cabins

Jerry wrote:
> 
> Bowser offers N5 cabins lettered for "Railway Express Agency" as well as
> "American Railway Express".
> 
> The former is a fairly accurate rendering and matches a photo of the same
> car number in one of the equipment guides.
> 
> I have never heard of the latter. Was there an "American Railway
> Express"? Or was this a error on Bowser's part? Or are the terms
> interchangable?
> 

Jerry,
      The Summer 1996 Keystone has an excellent article about these
cars.  Railway Express Agency was formed in 1929.  Prior to that, the
cabins were lettered "American Railway Express".

The use of cabin cars to transport crews on express/mail trains began in
1926, so the American Railway Express scheme is useful for 3 years.  If
modelling, remember to add steam and signal lines.  The article also
mentions that the express cabins recieved AB brakes.

The article has a complete roster of all the cars that recieved the
Railway Express Scheme.  During the years 1937-1960, there were only 7
cars with this sceme.  They are 5001, 5010, 5011, 5012, 5013, 5015, and
5019.

If you plan on modeling these cars, the Summer '96 Keystone is a geat
source.


Andy C.

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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:01:39 -0500
From: "David J. Wartell" <djwartel@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II

On 12/14/98 at 14:36:13 -0500 Jerry wrote:
>
>I had thought the Philadelphia Terminal was going to be Volume II. Must
>be III or IV. I know V was slated to be the Maryland Division...a "must
>have" for us Northern Central fans!
>

Surprise Jerry, I am still on the list!

Philly Terminal is supposed to be Volume III. That Is the one I am waiting
for. I hope that volume II is a better than Volume I. It was a lot of money
for a lot of cockeyed opinion.


Dave  Wartell
djwartel@ix.netcom.com



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:41:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PRR] E-R Models RF16

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote:

> 1.  I can find no photographic evidence that the RF16 (Pennsy variant) ever
> had its horns located other than on the right side of the roof, above the
> engineer.  The model has 2 horns (facing in opposite directions) on both sides
> of the cab roof.  Photos indicate either 1,2 or 3 all facing forward.  Has

Likewise, all photo evidence I have shows the same. I wish I could find a
good representation of that horn cluster.

> 8.  Another list member commented to me that the running characteristics of
> the engine are very good and that coupled with its weight should make it a
> fine runner.  I sure hope so, because it's going to require some more surgery
> and detail work to bring it somewhere close to P2k quality.

The Model Power units with the can motor (not all had it) ran well, though
hopefully this runs a bit better.

I've never seen a unit with the silver grid vents like these have; Have I
only seen pictures of weathered and/or later/earlier schemed units?

-D



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:39:43 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers

In a message dated 98-12-14 07:27:29 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes:

<< LEMO was wood; MG is brick. Big difference! >>
Re this:    What is NS's problem with just letting MG
sit there??  Maybe put a chain-link fence around it for liability
purposes.  If I were a stockholder, I wouldn't want them wasting
my money taking down a solid brick building which is in a
hard-to-reach location, but out of everyone's way. I'm afraid
somebody at NS really wants to remove all vestiges of
former ownership, just for spite.

Rich Copeland


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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:09:22 EST
Subject: [PRR] Dissected Interlocking Towers, Flatcars on Trucks etc.

Have you ever seen an interlocking tower on a flatcar?

Have you ever sen a flatcar on a semi truck?

Then go to:

http://members.aol.com/wprhs1/wprhs.html

Rick

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:30:57 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] E-R Models RF16
From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan)

Regarding the details, please consider that ALL of the Baldwin Sharks
that exist today were New York Central owned.  It is entirely possible
that they worked from recent pictures and measurements taken from those
units.  Putting couplers in the front of the Model Power units required a
bit of fussing, too. 
Pat Egan
(no web access)

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:35:42 EST Eichhorn@aol.com writes:
>Hi Guys,
>I have been doing some research on the E-R models RF16 and comparing 
>it to all
>of the prototype photos that I possess.  And, I have some observations 
>and
>also some questions that I hope someone can provide some answers to.
>1.  I can find no photographic evidence that the RF16 (Pennsy variant) 
>ever
>had its horns located other than on the right side of the roof, above 
>the
>engineer.  The model has 2 horns (facing in opposite directions) on 
>both sides
>of the cab roof.  Photos indicate either 1,2 or 3 all facing forward.  
>Has
>anyone noted a horn placement contrary to what I have observed?
>2.  I can find no photographic evidence that the prototype RF16 ever 
>had 4
>grab irons in the place where the nose ladder usually resided.  I 
>could only
>find the ladder or nothing at all.   Am I correct in this assumption?
>3.  Did all RF16's have a sand filler receptacle (terminology?) 
>located on
>each side of the upper pilot extension?  The model does not make any 
>provision
>for that item.
>4.  The model is rather sparse in detail on the roof area.  Photos 
>indicate
>the presence of a couple of probe like projections just aft of the 
>exhaust and
>there are no lift rings provided either.  
>5.  The single narrow stripe has a couple of oddities as well.  On the 
>model,
>it extends over the ladder rungs (which doesn't look to cool) and it 
>doesn't
>extend into the doorway cavities as it should per the prototype 
>photographs.
>But, that is easily corrected.
>6.  Tonight I performed the required surgery to eliminate the 
>antiquated
>couplers in preparation for the installation of some Kaydees.  Now I 
>will have
>to construct the pads that will be required to install the new 
>couplers.  E-R
>didn't do a very good job in that respect IMO.
>7.  The exhaust stack will also require opening up, as they have 
>provided only
>a solid disk to represent that detail.
>8.  Another list member commented to me that the running 
>characteristics of
>the engine are very good and that coupled with its weight should make 
>it a
>fine runner.  I sure hope so, because it's going to require some more 
>surgery
>and detail work to bring it somewhere close to P2k quality.
>
>Regards,
>George   
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] BP-20..learned something today
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 20:38:22 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/14/98 5:55 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. 
(smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote:

>I learned something today.  Remember BEFORE miracle and Liberty, when we
>discussed kitbashing a BP-20 out of two BF-16s?  I think the complaint was
>made that it was OK, but that the BF-16 failed to duplicate the curved
>section of the upper side grill on the BP-20.  Well, I was reading the
>following excerpt from the Pennsy Journal, V1 #1, by Bob Reid on Jerry's
>web site
>
>"5770 and 5771 differ slightly from all others in that the first air intake
>is rectangular in shape. Subsequent units have a piece of sheet metal
>shaped like an arch. Likewise, the rear air intake has been changed. 5770B
>is similar to its original mates."
>
>The photos on the site bear this out.  This means that the Miracle Castings
>units should NOT be numbered 5770, 5770B, or 5771, and that there IS a
>prototype for the square grills from bashing two RF-16s!!!!  Hmmmm, now
>there's a rivet counters delight!  (geeee, I hope I haven't made anyone
>have to renumber (repaint) a BP-20 <G>)

I can't respond offhand as to what other differences there might be 
between the BF-16 and the PB-20, but what you pointed out I did mention 
in my initial review of the MC shells. They do have the curved vent and 
thus cannot be of the first units made. There was also a difference with 
the horns, I believe.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:04:58 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] News briefs...

I thought the Cleveland Hullets were the last ones in existence.  Why haven't
we heard about these ones in Chicago?

Rick

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:10:45 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] BP-20..learned something today

In a message dated 12/14/98 5:04:09 PM Central Standard Time,
smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:

<<  (geeee, I hope I haven't made anyone
 have to renumber (repaint) a BP-20 <G>) >>

Darn, now I'll have to check the mover's box to see if my kitbashed unit is
the correct number.  Thanks a lot, guys! :-)

Bob Zoeller

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:08:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Cabins

In a message dated 12/14/98 3:58:41 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

<< I have never heard of the latter. Was there an "American Railway 
 Express"? Or was this a error on Bowser's part? Or are the terms 
 interchangable? >>

Quoting  Railway Express, by V. S. Roseman:  
"In 1929 , 69 railroads, organized the Railway Express Agency and purchased
American Railway Express on March 1, 1929."  Only Southeastern Express
remained independent until 1938.
American Express was a merger during WW! of Great Northern, Northern, Western
, Adams, Southern and American Express, and Wells Fargo. Express companies
date from the Pony Express days of the mid-19th century.

Bob Zoeller

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:22:47 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] BP-20..learned something today

In a message dated 12/14/98 6:04:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:

> The photos on the site bear this out.  This means that the Miracle Castings
>  units should NOT be numbered 5770, 5770B, or 5771, and that there IS a
>  prototype for the square grills from bashing two RF-16s!!!!  Hmmmm, now
>  there's a rivet counters delight!  (geeee, I hope I haven't made anyone
>  have to renumber (repaint) a BP-20 <G>)
>  
The 5770 and 5771 were also the only BP-20's with dual headlights.

Rich Orr

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:09:35 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Surviving PRR Towers

In a message dated 12/13/98 9:29:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org
writes:

> 
> Is PITT still standing, or did I-579 wipe it out?
>  
Pitt is still standing and last I knew was the dispatcher/power routing office
for the LRV system in Pittsburgh.

Rich Orr

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Duane C. Miller" <dcalvinm@csrlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:36:37 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE2790.AF11B620
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



----------
> From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>
> To: Laird, Bill <Bill.Laird@COASTALCORP.COM>; 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com'
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II
> Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 2:36 PM

> True, the first volume had a lot of controversial copy, but all seem to 
> agree that the photos were great. Volume II involves the area I want to 
> model, so naturally I can't wait -- especially with "aerial studies"!!!
> 

Has anyone done a listing of errors and misidentified photos in Triumph I? 
I just found another error in it.  On page 91 there is a photo that the
author claims is a photo of Horseshoe Curve that dates to pre-1862.  It is
actually of the Shaw Run Curve on the Pennsylvania & North Western Railroad
that ran between Bellwood and Punxsutawney.  I have the same postcard of
the picture but is has a caption printed in the sky; "General View Horse
Shoe Curve, Bellwood Division P.R.R. Near Bellwood, Pa."  I also have
another post card which is a close up of the cut on the hillside and it is
labeled "Shaw Run Curve, P.N.W. Div. of P.R.R."  If he would of looked
closer to the background on the picture he would of noticed that the hill
behind the curve doesn't slope downhill toward where Glen White Run would
be on the left but instead continues going uphill.

Duane Miller


------=_NextPart_000_01BE2790.AF11B620
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br><br>----------<br>&gt; From: Jerry =
&lt;<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>jerry@dsop.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; To: Laird, Bill &lt;<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Bill.Laird@COASTALCORP.COM</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;; '<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>PRR-Talk@dsop.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">'<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II<br>&gt; Date: =
Monday, December 14, 1998 2:36 PM<br><br>&gt; True, the first volume had =
a lot of controversial copy, but all seem to <br>&gt; agree that the =
photos were great. Volume II involves the area I want to <br>&gt; model, =
so naturally I can't wait -- especially with &quot;aerial =
studies&quot;!!!<br>&gt; <br><br>Has anyone done a listing of errors and =
misidentified photos in Triumph I? &nbsp;I just found another error in =
it. &nbsp;On page 91 there is a photo that the author claims is a photo =
of Horseshoe Curve that dates to pre-1862. &nbsp;It is actually of the =
Shaw Run Curve on the Pennsylvania &amp; North Western Railroad that ran =
between Bellwood and Punxsutawney. &nbsp;I have the same postcard of the =
picture but is has a caption printed in the sky; &quot;General View =
Horse Shoe Curve, Bellwood Division P.R.R. Near Bellwood, Pa.&quot; =
&nbsp;I also have another post card which is a close up of the cut on =
the hillside and it is labeled &quot;Shaw Run Curve, P.N.W. Div. of =
P.R.R.&quot; &nbsp;If he would of looked closer to the background on the =
picture he would of noticed that the hill behind the curve doesn't slope =
downhill toward where Glen White Run would be on the left but instead =
continues going uphill.<br><br>Duane Miller<br><br><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BE2790.AF11B620--


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: AlbertSR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:26:17 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Magazine drawing list

In a message dated 12/2/98 8:07:08 AM Central Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net
writes:

<< I believe RMC once had (fairly rough) drawings of the E-44.  If no
 one has the reference handy, I may have it buried away somewhere.
 
 John Bobsin
  >>
I believe it was not a drawing per se but an etching pattern for making a
brass model of the beautiful beast. It was in the 50's I believe and was
written by Bill Schopp or Shopp

AlbertSr@AOL.COM

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:14:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PRR] BP-20..learned something today

>  "5770 and 5771 differ slightly from all others in that the first air intake
>  is rectangular in shape. Subsequent units have a piece of sheet metal
>  shaped like an arch. Likewise, the rear air intake has been changed. 5770B
>  is similar to its original mates."
>  
>  The photos on the site bear this out.  This means that the Miracle Castings
>  units should NOT be numbered 5770, 5770B, or 5771, and that there IS a
>  prototype for the square grills from bashing two RF-16s!!!!  Hmmmm, now
>  there's a rivet counters delight!  (geeee, I hope I haven't made anyone
>  have to renumber (repaint) a BP-20 <G>)


Well, actually, yes, and no. I and at least one other person mentioned the
arched sheet metal some time ago. But 2 RF16's cannot be a DR-6-4-2000. 2
DR-4-4-1500s can. But the earlier sharks (DR-4-4-1500 and DR-6-4-2000) used a
slatted set of openings along the top of the side, whereas the RF16 used a
gridded set of openings. So it's still not right.

-D


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] 2/4 track module locale (was All Right...)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:28:37 -0500


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
To: prrmo@dsop.com <prrmo@dsop.com>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 2:10 PM
Subject: [PRR] 2/4 track module locale (was All Right...)


Bruce,

>snip,
>I had asked about 2 or 4 track locations, with catenary, next to navigable
>water so that I could use the Walthers tugboat and a Sheepscott derrick
>barge

Absolute best place for this is what Mark suggested vicinity BELL, adjacent
to the Delaware River main shipping channel w/ NJ across the river.


>snip,
>Are there any similar locations on the NEC _SOUTH_ of Wilmington (between
>Wilmington and Baltimore)?  I seem to recall somewhere where the tracks (2
>track territory?) cross a headwater of the Chesapeake on a low (near water
>level) bridge.  If my (failing) memory serves me right, this would be a
>very interesting module, mostly of water, plus some marsh.  Please help!

You are thinking of the double track bridges between "Bush" and "Bay", info
below c.1966.

MP 71.6- 3/2 trk-  Bush - Interlocking - Remote Edgewood
MP 72.14 - 2 trk- Bridge Bush River
MP 75.6- 2 trk-  Edgewood - Block Station - Interlocking - Interlocking
Station
MP 77.0- 2 trk- Magnolia - Interlocking- Remote Edgewood
MP 78.86- 2 trk- Bridge Gunpower River
MP 79.3- 2/4 trk- Gunpow - Interlocking - Remote Edgewood
MP 79.9- 4 trk- Harewood Park
MP 81.0- 4 trk- Chase
MP 85.3- 4 trk- Middle River
MP 87.0- 4 trk- Stemmer's Run
MP 89.3- 4/3 trk- River - Interlocking - Remote Bay
MP 90.1- 3 trk-  North Point - Interlocking - Remote Bay
MP 91.9- 3/4 trk-  Bay -Block Station- Interlocking - Interlocking Station

Al


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Laird, Bill" <Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com>
Subject: [PRR] Lines West Fans - This ones for you ......
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:22:02 -0600

The December 1998 issue of the "NMRA Bulletin" features a 10 page article on
Al Kubicka's Panhandle Route, a 21' x 22' HO scale layout based on the PRR
Panhandle Lines between Pittsburg, PA and Columbus, Ohio.  Besides the full
page color photograph on the magazine cover, the article contains are over a
dozen color photographs and a track plan.

Bill Laird
Houston, Texas



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:06:41 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: [PRR] Fire in Manheim  PA

Howdy All:

Just a note to all you model railroaders today. One of Lancaster
County's oldest and largest HO hobby shops went up in smoke today.
Rules Model Train's was in the middle of large fire that took out 4
buildings in the downtown business district.    The fire appears to have
started in the hobby shop.   Several families also lost their homes
(apts. above the stores) in the blaze.  No reported injures.
I do not have any other information at this time.   A sad note for many
model railroaders in Lancaster County.
I bought my first brass engine form them in 1975, and just took delivery
of my second batch of PA1's two weeks ago.
My prayers to all those who have been displaced by the fire.

Cos
wsbcos.com


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From: "Brian Brandt" <trains@redrose.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fire in Manheim  PA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:49:58 -0500

We who have spent many hours with Bill & Jeff, and a few years ago with Mr
Rule himself, will never forget the ready help and also a light humor of
your mistakes.  I too think of the people displaced, also thankful that no
one was injured.  Bill helped me often with any problems I had while
building my Bowser locomotives.  We in the modeling community will miss
them.  Hopefully they will return.

                                                                    Brian
Brandt
                                                            Asst.
Superintendent Div 11  Mer, NMRA


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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:40:48 -0600
From: Andy Cich <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] X29's in "Merchandise Service"

Jerry wrote:
> 
> I got a call today from Red Caboose...actually, I got a message...so I
> won't have the exact details until tomorrow.
> 
> The gist, however, is that Red Caboose will be rerunning X29's in the
> "Merchandise Service" scheme...in both N and HO scales.

Re-running "Merchandise Service"???  Do you mean they are re-running the
Railway Express?  I don't believe they have yet released the Merchandise
Service cars.  If they have, I sure missed out.

As far as cars I've seen, they have

Circle Keystone - Five 12 car sets, (60 different numbers available)
Buy War Bonds - Two 12 car sets, (24 diff. nums.)
Railway Express - One 12 car set (12 diff. nums.)
Shadow Keystone
Shadow Keystone, Calendar Numbers

Are the Merchandise Service cars going to have the single white band, or
the silver band with white trim?  Anyone seen a preproduction photo?

Red Caboose seems strange in their releases.  They anounce some road
names, and then, whammo, something else is released.  My hobby shop had
the Army Ammunition cars long before I ever heard they were coming out.

I did purchase Red Cabooses catalog.  For about eight bucks, it comes in
a three ring binder, and has drawings of most of their cars offered, as
well as planned releases.  The purchase price also includes two years
worth of updates.

Anyway, was your message about the second 12 numbers for REA, or for
MS.  If REA, do you have any idea of when we might se the MS cars? 
Walthers has had "Undetermined" on their catalog search for about 6
months now.


Andy C.

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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:51:13 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
Subject: [PRR] Jacks Tower & other HO Pennsy structure kits

My P&E/E&P web page (http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm)
has a list of available HO scale structures based on PRR prototypes.  If
anyone knows of others, please let me know.  A while back George Pierson
mentioned a Quality Craft (now sold by Gloor Craft) Jacks Tower kit. 
Can anyone provide a picture of the completed kit?  Also, does anyone
know for sure what the prototype of the Atlas signal tower kit is? 
Thanks.  
-- 
Jerry Shickler
e-mail: geshick@velocity.net

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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:40:08 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Staufer and little kid pull ups


  Hi Folks....

    Ok...first off...anyone out there know Alvin Staufer's address
    Either snail or e-mail (if he has one).? Or anyway to contact him
    or his publisher ?

    Now...You find a little bit of the Pennsy in the strangest places
    sometimes....
    I was watching T.V. while also surfing the net tonight...I saw a
    commercial for Huggies Pull Ups. The diaper like underwear for
    little kids....anyway in the commercial it shows a little kid
    riding with a grown-up on a train...The train was a live steamer.
    anyway the engine they used for the commercial was a live steam
    E-6s class 4-4-2. They even got it right,right down to the color
    and shape of the number plate....sheesh...pull ups....
  
    I've seen K-4 beer....what next....GG-1 floor wax ?


                                     Til Later
                                     Hank Mummert


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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:38:53 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Staufer and little kid pull ups

bubbles@visi.net wrote:
> 
>   Hi Folks....
> 
>     Ok...first off...anyone out there know Alvin Staufer's address
>     Either snail or e-mail (if he has one).? Or anyway to contact him
>     or his publisher ?
> 
>     Now...You find a little bit of the Pennsy in the strangest places
>     sometimes....
>     I was watching T.V. while also surfing the net tonight...I saw a
>     commercial for Huggies Pull Ups. The diaper like underwear for
>     little kids....anyway in the commercial it shows a little kid
>     riding with a grown-up on a train...The train was a live steamer.
>     anyway the engine they used for the commercial was a live steam
>     E-6s class 4-4-2. They even got it right,right down to the color
>     and shape of the number plate....sheesh...pull ups....
> 
>     I've seen K-4 beer....what next....GG-1 floor wax ?
> 
>                                      Til Later
>                                      Hank Mummert
> 
Hmmm.  Could this be Dan Culp's 1 1/2" scale E6s as featured in the
Summer '98 Keystone?

As for Mr. Staufer's address,  Jerry Britton posted this address last
May: 
Alvin F. Staufer
2244 Remsen Road
Medina OH 44256

-- 
Jerry Shickler
e-mail: geshick@velocity.net

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:08:14 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II

In a message dated 12/15/98 2:46:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dcalvinm@csrlink.net writes:

> Has anyone done a listing of errors and misidentified photos in Triumph I? 
I'd bet someone has, but before I came on the list in April 98.  I've mostly
heard about the battle of the ought track.

Rick T.

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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:19:06 -0800
From: "Eugene E. Deimling" <eedlg@concentric.net>
Subject: [PRR] X-29 In 1/48

For those of you who follow the PRR in O scale,  Des Plaines Hobbies
will be releasing the second X-29 kit  after the first of the year.
The latest version depicts the post-war car with patch plates along the
sidesill.   This car can be decorated in the Merchandise Service livery
with Microcscale`s O scale set.   The kit is composed of resin castings,
injection molded ladders and stirups and Middle Division decals.
Gene Deimling


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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] 2/4 track module locale (was All Right...)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:42:11 -0500 (EST)

> Are there any similar locations on the NEC _SOUTH_ of Wilmington (between
> Wilmington and Baltimore)?  I seem to recall somewhere where the tracks (2
> track territory?) cross a headwater of the Chesapeake on a low (near water
> level) bridge.  If my (failing) memory serves me right, this would be a
> very interesting module, mostly of water, plus some marsh.  Please help!

Bruce,
you could model EDGEWOOD.  There are 2, count them, 2 movable
bridges on either side of the tower.  THus, the main line goes
from _m_ (?3) tracks to 2 tracks on the first bridge to 4 tracks
past the tower to 2 tracks on the next bridges to _n_ (?3)
tracks beyond.

Not much _parallel_ water, but water nevertheless.
Also, I'm not sure about navigability by _large_ vessels (don't
know what you're looking for, specifically).

--
Mark

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:20:20 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] H33 hoppers (reply)

Rick and all,

In a message RickTipton@aol.com writes:

<< I continue to labor on the Covered Hopper Lettering article I promised to
the
 Keystone last May...
 
 Everyone would agree that the PRR H34 through H34D classes were early and
late
 PS-2 designs; P-S Butler Pa even assembled the H34A and H34D cars.>>

Rick all my research shows that PRR's own Altoona Shops built the H-34A and
the H-34D's.  They were built from Pullman Standard supplied parts.  The
H-34,34B & C were Pullman Standard built in lot numbers 8176, 8278B, 8378B and
8430 (James Kindkaid's article in Aug '98 MM).

<<Turning to the H33 car, I see a covered hopper that was all-welded, but
otherwise seems to resemble the 1958-cu. ft. design ACF offered before 1940.
All resources I
 have use words like "Altoona designed."  Does anyone know of material that
might establish a relationship of these 200 cars (built Altoona 1953) to
ACF?>>

Rick, although the cars resemble the AC&F car there are distinct differences
between the Altoona built cars and AC&F cars.  The first being the overhanging
roof eve most commonly found on box car.  The second being the roof ribs,
there are 5, and they are not as noticeable from a shot taken at ground level.
The third being that the side stakes were Z braces and not the traditional
Round Edged Flanged Channels ("hat sections").  Most of these differences were
not represented in my article written for MM several years back, but they have
come to light through research done since the article.  An interesting car to
say the least.  
 
<< Also, is there any source that could tell us what customer and lading
justified roller bearing trucks at this early date?  Freight car list (FCL)
sources seem to indicate there were VERY FEW roller bearing equipped freight
cars built in 1953.>>

I have never heard exactly why the use of roller bearing trucks on this class
car but they were certainly delivered that way.  I might add that during the
transition from the use of "Freight Car Color" to gray paint on the covered
hoppers there were some cars that appeared with black lettering and a black
Ball Keystone.  Situations like this were always the exception, if you need
photo evidence call Richard Burg.   
 
<< I hope THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE SOMEWHERE.
 
 Rick Tipton
 Louisville KY >>

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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:52:32 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II

In a message dated 98-12-15 23:42:14 EST, you write:

<< Subj:	 Re: [PRR] Triumph II
 Date:	98-12-15 23:42:14 EST
 From:	RickTipton@aol.com
 Sender:	PRR-Talk@dsop.com
 To:	dcalvinm@csrlink.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com
 CC:	Brady.McGuire@kwikset.com
 
 In a message dated 12/15/98 2:46:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 dcalvinm@csrlink.net writes:
 
 > Has anyone done a listing of errors and misidentified photos in Triumph I? 
 I'd bet someone has, but before I came on the list in April 98.  I've mostly
 heard about the battle of the ought track.
 
 Rick T.
  >>*****I ASSume you saw the two reviews in the Keystone, mine and...??
Mine was very specific ( page, para, line, etc/..) but abbreviated for space,
I could dig the original out. 
 Supposed to get a pre-pub copy of Tri-II, but looks like not coming, so red
pencil being sharpened now...hahahah, Bill*** 

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Subject: Re: [PRR] X29's in "Merchandise Service"
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 06:28:44 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/15/98 10:40 PM, Andy Cich (ajc5150@net66.com) wrote:

>Re-running "Merchandise Service"???  Do you mean they are re-running the
>Railway Express?  I don't believe they have yet released the Merchandise
>Service cars.  If they have, I sure missed out.

"REA" was just rerun (about two months ago) and I have all 12 road 
numbers in stock (HO) if you want any. Price is $13.50 each.

As for "Merchandise Service", perhaps it is the first run. I remember 
seeing it in the Walthers catalog for several years now, but perhaps it 
was never run. Gotta admit, I've never seen them! They will be available 
in 12 numbers for both N and HO and I should have them in stock (HO only; 
N by special order) in late January or early February. I am taking 
advance reservations. Price will be $13.50 each.
>
>As far as cars I've seen, they have
>
>Circle Keystone - Five 12 car sets, (60 different numbers available)
>Buy War Bonds - Two 12 car sets, (24 diff. nums.)
>Railway Express - One 12 car set (12 diff. nums.)

Two 12 car sets now.

>Shadow Keystone
>Shadow Keystone, Calendar Numbers

I'm not sure how many runs have been done of the Shadow Keystone, but the 
"Calendar Numbers" were not a separate run. They were done within the 
same run. There may have only been one run of these to date. I picked up 
a few for myself about six months ago and they were all first run cars. 
(You can tell by the part number on the box. The part number remains the 
same, with a suffix of -1, -2, ... -12, -13, etc., indicating the road 
number.)
>
>Are the Merchandise Service cars going to have the single white band, or
>the silver band with white trim?  Anyone seen a preproduction photo?

Single white band. No, I have not seen a photo.
>
>Red Caboose seems strange in their releases.  They anounce some road
>names, and then, whammo, something else is released.  My hobby shop had
>the Army Ammunition cars long before I ever heard they were coming out.
>
>I did purchase Red Cabooses catalog.  For about eight bucks, it comes in
>a three ring binder, and has drawings of most of their cars offered, as
>well as planned releases.  The purchase price also includes two years
>worth of updates.

Geez, I'm a direct dealer now and didn't even know this existed.
>
>Anyway, was your message about the second 12 numbers for REA, or for
>MS.  If REA, do you have any idea of when we might se the MS cars? 
>Walthers has had "Undetermined" on their catalog search for about 6
>months now.

See previous responses. Thanks.


-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:26:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 RickTipton@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/15/98 2:46:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> dcalvinm@csrlink.net writes:
> 
> > Has anyone done a listing of errors and misidentified photos in Triumph I? 
> I'd bet someone has, but before I came on the list in April 98.  I've mostly
> heard about the battle of the ought track.

Jerry has an archive which should cover back that far. I think Rob
Schoenberg does as well, but I'm not sure. I know mine does:
imap://cyrus.dementia.org/lists.prr-talk
If it asks you to log in, anonymous with password anonymous
-D



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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:16:45 -0500
From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun)
Subject: [PRR] Halmark GG1


Hi,

I received a early Christmas present of a Halmark
tree ornament that is a tiny copy of the Lionel GG1.
(a model of a model?)  It's really great! Nicely done
(even better then the Lionel version IMHO!) Anyway,
if you or someone you know appreciates Christmas and
PRR heavy electrics, this is just the ticket. Make
sure there is a sturdy tree near by, the ~4" model
is cast metal and quite hefty. Since the wheels roll
and trucks turn all you need is some track!
At about 1:240 scale that would be code 25 rail?

kbt

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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 9:07:12 EST
From: <kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Talker in England

Will the PRR talker who lives in England please contact me off the list.

Thanks in advance.

Kris 


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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 12:07:25 CST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Jacks Tower & other HO Pennsy structure kits

Hi, all,

>A while back George Pierson
>mentioned a Quality Craft (now sold by Gloor Craft) Jacks Tower kit. 
>Can anyone provide a picture of the completed kit?

I'm not sure about this year's Walthers catalogue but past years had a 
photo of the completed kit.

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 11:59:00 CST
Subject: Re: [PRR] News briefs...

Hi, all, 

>I thought the Cleveland Hullets were the last ones in existence.  Why haven't
>we heard about these ones in Chicago?

The LTV Huletts are a little "off topic" for this list but since the 
Cleveland ones are so well known, thought you might be interested in the 
LTV machines.  Why aren't they well known?  Well, compared to the 
Cleveland site, these are almost inaccessible.  Moreover, although it 
appears that the LTV Huletts originally unloaded lakers and dumped into rr 
cars as well as storage piles (like those in Cleveland), they are now 
apparently exclusively used to unload river/canal coal barges and the coal 
goes straight into a storage pile (BTW this pile has two traveling cranes 
like the one that blew down at Cleveland - they are pretty impressive too).

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:13:22 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II

--On Die, 15. Dez 1998 23:08 +0000 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: 

> In a message dated 12/15/98 2:46:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> dcalvinm@csrlink.net writes:
> 
>> Has anyone done a listing of errors and misidentified photos in Triumph
I? 
> I'd bet someone has, but before I came on the list in April 98.  I've
mostly
> heard about the battle of the ought track.

Caveat Emptor.  After much hemming and hawing, I finally bought my copy of
Harumph I and found it to be quite an entertaining read, which is only one
reason why I bought it ... the other, of course, was historical knowledge. 
Anything  Roberts touches will be tainted by the fact that he is not an
historican, which he claims to be, but a journalist, which he admits in his
introduction.  Moral of the story:  if it ain't got footnotes, it ain't real
history.  Even then, you're reading ONE historian's interpretation of the
facts.  Great pictures, though, even the ones with inaccurate captions.

Caveat Emptor. 

Vagel

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Subject: Re: [PRR] X29's in "Merchandise Service" 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:58:28 -0500
From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

On 15 Dec, Andy Cich wrote:

> Re-running "Merchandise Service"???  Do you mean they are re-running the
> Railway Express?

I would read that as "re-running the X29", and "in M/S
livery".

> Are the Merchandise Service cars going to have the single white band, or
> the silver band with white trim?  Anyone seen a preproduction photo?

As far as the literature says, (Brady McGuire
s article in the Keystone), the X29 never got the
silver-band paint scheme.  White band w/CK and SK only.

Dennis Rockwell     SPF(N)    dennis@bbn.com      Cambridge MA
             _______  _______  _______  _______  _______  _______
####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)#####

I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning!

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: FRANKGARON@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:13:02 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II

As flawed and opinionated as this book (and the B&O books they put out) is, I
found the pictures and diagrams of various Interlockings, stations, etc., to
be well worth it.

I too could do without all the hyperbole, but where else can you get this
information!

BTW: Russ Porter's new "coffee table" book on American RR's (I forget the
title) has a great shot of a freight going past the tower in Kouts, IN. 

Frank Garon

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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:05:30 -0800
Subject: [PRR] GP 30 P2K
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

Hey all,

Just got Life Like's fax yesterday about GP 30 phase II, releasing in
early to mid March (read April).  No PRR, I forgot to check which phase
to use, but that may not be a big deal to all.  I do have an article on
the GP 30 ( I think RMC) that lists all made by EMD, listing each phase
and who bought them, plus I believe the next two roads that inherited
each unit along with number changes.  Need the info, give me a shout.

SGT York

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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:13:09 -0500 (EST)

> Moral of the story:  if it ain't got footnotes, it ain't real history.
> Even then, you're reading ONE historian's interpretation of the
> facts.  Great pictures, though, even the ones with inaccurate captions.

Nits and pet peeves. Apologies in advance. No offense intended
(even if taken!)


Facts are facts, certainly. One can refuse to believe, but that is
a whole other story (and a completely separate problem). So I'm
excluding wild exceptions like Flat Earthers and blank-Supremacists
(however the blank may be filled in).

History, gentlemen, is _by necessity_ interpreted. For unless Thou Werest There
In The Flesh, thou bringest thine own biases, views, etc. etc. etc. into
thy recantation.  There is no such thing as an unbiased reporter.

Inherent in my statements is that a mere recitation of facts, even old
facts, is NOT history.  Only the uninitiated believe it to be so.  Facts
are _part_ of history, but not the totality.  A true history tells not
only who, what and when, but attempts to provide some insight as to why.
(Obviously, a _good_ history tries to provide the "why" _on the basis of_
the who, what, and when.) Nevertheless, well versed historians can come
up with quite divergent views of the same events.  And human nature
being what it is, there is the people, historians not excepted, who have
hidden agendas and _intentionally_ skew their interpretations to fit
preconceived notions.

--
Mark

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:12:01 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Tragedy-of-No-Real-PRR-Research II

In a message dated 98-12-16 06:38:56 EST, you write:

<< After Triumph I, I wrote the publisher a very polite letter and 
 volunteered to proof-read future volumes free-of-charge. I have extensive 
 experience in the publishing business and therefore am very qualified to 
 perform this task.
 
 My letter wasn't even acknowledged! >>
****although, if you Ask Brady McGuire, myself, and others, sometimes NO reply
is preferable to an arrogant one.....What does he think he is, a
Doktor..!!!???

   Anyway, I wrote to, emailed and personnally met with Dave Messer ( @ PRR
Conv-Lanc'98 ) just to discuss and try to prevent egregious errors from the
next one, and also, no response to date. Soooo...( grind, grind,....red pen
sharpening....)..ahhaha, Bill***

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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:48:03 EST
Subject: [PRR] Merry Christmas - PRR Style..!!

***Walter Berko ( RR Video ) Has taken My Favorite Photo, from his CD Rom PRR
Album Images, and created a Terrific PRR NY Division Christmas Card !!!

To view, take a look at:
http://members.aol.com/prrsignals/BERKCARD.jpg

Happy Holidays to All !!...Bill***

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] Vintage Railroad Ads
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 12:18:14 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

For those interested in vintage railroad ads, I have just posted on eBay 
18 lots of ads taken from National Geographic magazine from the 1940s and 
1950s. There are hundreds of ads included, with each lot being one 
railroad.

You can view the lots and auction progress at
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&u
serid=keystonecrossings&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25

The above all needs to be entered on one line. If it does not work, 
perform a search for the seller = keystonecrossings .

For now, I am withholding sale of the following collections: Pennsylvania 
Railroad, New York Central Railroad, EMD, American Car & Foundry, Budd, 
Lionel, and Association of American Railroads. If anyone is interested in 
these collections please contact me directly. Thank you.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:14:28 -0500
From: J Bruce Andrews <bandrews@apdevint.mv.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] American Railway Express Co.

robert netzlof wrote:
> 
> Yes, there was an American Railway Express Company.
> 
> It started out sometime around WW1, as a merger of
> several express companies, including the Adams
> Express Company which, I believe, had been THE
> express company on the pre-WW1 PRR. It ended in the
> merger which formed the Railway Express Agency in 1929.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't know if the PRR lettered
> any cabins for the express company.
> 
> ===
> Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob
> 

According to PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol2 by
Ian S. Fischer, the PRR began assigning N5 cabin cars to exprees service
in 1926 so that they could have started out lettered for the American
Railway Express Company rather than Railway Express Agency.

Any one no for sure?

Bruce Andrews

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:58:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] GP 30 P2K

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 staffsgtyork@juno.com wrote:

> Hey all,
> 
> Just got Life Like's fax yesterday about GP 30 phase II, releasing in
> early to mid March (read April).  No PRR, I forgot to check which phase
> to use, but that may not be a big deal to all.  I do have an article on
> the GP 30 ( I think RMC) that lists all made by EMD, listing each phase
> and who bought them, plus I believe the next two roads that inherited
> each unit along with number changes.  Need the info, give me a shout.

PRR had phase 2, so we'll get it eventually.

Lionel/Bachmann/Spectrum units are also phase 2.

-D



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:12:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr."  <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>
Subject: [PRR] non-PRR, but of interest to some folks

There is steam in revenue service right now, but not for long.  The Dardanelle 
and Russellville RR in west central Arkansas is using W.T. Carter & Co. #4, a 
2-6-2, to pull freight until their diesels are back running again.  If anyone on
the list lives in the area, you might want to get some photos before they drop 
the fire again.

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551-5926
409/740-4540;  fax 409/740-5002
harperd@tamug.tamu.edu


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:09:53 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] GP 30 P2K
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

Will dig it out tonight and post the info tomorrow.

SGT York

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:30:08 EST PRRSignals@aol.com writes:
>***Hi, SGT York - 
>
>Ummm, Please point me to RMC issue, send listing, whatever....friends 
>are
>doing GP30 Research, might be of help..???   Thanks, Bill***
>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:27:43 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: [PRR] Z74 Business Cars


--------------835A0A9D240A6B301C872D44
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy All:

I apologize to whoever posted the question about the names of the
business car fleet.

Pennsy Journal Vol. II No. 3 has the location and detail of car names
for 9-25-39
I lists the following Z74 class cars:
number   name                       class
30       HARRISBURG
60       WILMINGTON
90       DELAWARE               Z74B
100     NEW YORK                Z74D
170     NEWARK
180     PENNSYLVANIA       Z74C
450     DELMARVA
1027   CLEVELAND
2000   MONTAUK
2200   LONG ISLAND
3998
3999   BALTIMORE
7501   ST. LOUIS
7502   WASHINGTON          Z74
7503   DUQUESNE              Z74
7504                                        Z74D
7505   MARYLAND               Z74
7506   ILLINOIS                     Z74
7507   PHILADELPHIA        Z74D
7508   CHICAGO                  Z74A
7509   OHIO                           Z74D
7510   NEW JERSEY           Z74D
7511   THE PITTSBURGHER  Z74E


Pennsy Journal Vol. 1 No.  4  has painting and lettering diagrams for
the cars - good to 1943.
It lists the following Z74 class cars:

number   name                          class
90       DELAWARE                  Z74B
100    THE NEW YORKER      Z74D
120     BALTIMORE                  Z74D
180     PHILADELPHIA             Z74C
2000   MONTAUK
7502   WASHINGTON               Z74
7503                                             Z74
7504   QUAKER CITY                Z74D
7505   MARYLAND                    Z74
7506   ILLINOIS                           Z74
7507   PENNSYLVANIA            Z74D
7508   CHICAGOAN                  Z74A
7509   OHIO                                Z74D
7510   THE PITTSBURGHER   Z74D
7511   THE DUQUESNE           Z74E

Several notes on the copy sheet:
"This tracing supersedes D89752 made obsolete on account of changing to
'FUTURA' style letters and numerals.  8-16-39"
"The name 'NEW YORK' on car number 100 changed to 'THE NEW YORKER' - the
name 'HARRISBURG' on car number 7525 [a Z62 class car] changed to
'YOUNGSTOWN'.  3-21-41"
"This tracing has been made obsolete and is superseded by tracing
B427840  1-6-43."

Photographic information would add the following list:

number   name                            class
100     Chicagoan
7504   Quaker City                      Z74?
7504   WM..  Penn                       Z74?    "William Penn"
7507

The following are  excerpts from the  Pennsy Journal's:

"...published in Rails Northeast a list of Pennsy business cars. ....
Photos of some of the earliest cars are not available or known to me.
... Photos for cars after 1920 do exist and cars that went total
overhaul in the early 1950's have extensive detail photos available as
well."  Vol. I  No. 2

"...A total of 40 business cars were in operation during the late 1920's
and early 1930 period.  Part of the difficulty in maintaining a history
of such equipment is related to the fact that many different cars may
have had the same name over a period of forty years."   Vol. II No. 3.
For instance; 7505 appears to have had at least four names during its
PRR years - Baltimore, Quaker City,  Pennsylvania and Philadelphia.

The best approach when modeling any particular car is to find a photo of
the car for the year you are modeling.   Some appear to have
electro-mechanical refrigeration while others used ice.

cos
wsbcos

--------------835A0A9D240A6B301C872D44
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy All:

<P>I apologize to whoever posted the question about the names of the business
car fleet.<I></I>

<P><I>Pennsy Journal </I>Vol. II No. 3 has the location and detail of car
names for 9-25-39
<BR>I lists the following Z74 class cars:
<BR>number&nbsp;&nbsp; name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
class
<BR>30&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HARRISBURG
<BR>60&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WILMINGTON
<BR>90&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DELAWARE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74B
<BR>100&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NEW YORK&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>170&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NEWARK
<BR>180&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PENNSYLVANIA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74C
<BR>450&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DELMARVA
<BR>1027&nbsp;&nbsp; CLEVELAND
<BR>2000&nbsp;&nbsp; MONTAUK
<BR>2200&nbsp;&nbsp; LONG ISLAND
<BR>3998
<BR>3999&nbsp;&nbsp; BALTIMORE
<BR>7501&nbsp;&nbsp; ST. LOUIS
<BR>7502&nbsp;&nbsp; WASHINGTON&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74
<BR>7503&nbsp;&nbsp; DUQUESNE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74
<BR>7504&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>7505&nbsp;&nbsp; MARYLAND&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74
<BR>7506&nbsp;&nbsp; ILLINOIS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74
<BR>7507&nbsp;&nbsp; PHILADELPHIA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>7508&nbsp;&nbsp; CHICAGO&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74A
<BR>7509&nbsp;&nbsp; OHIO&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>7510&nbsp;&nbsp; NEW JERSEY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>7511&nbsp;&nbsp; THE PITTSBURGHER&nbsp; Z74E
<BR>&nbsp;<I></I>

<P><I>Pennsy Journal </I>Vol. 1 No.&nbsp; 4&nbsp; has painting and lettering
diagrams for the cars - good to 1943.
<BR>It lists the following Z74 class cars:

<P>number&nbsp;&nbsp; name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
class
<BR>90&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DELAWARE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74B
<BR>100&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THE NEW YORKER&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>120&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BALTIMORE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>180&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PHILADELPHIA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74C
<BR>2000&nbsp;&nbsp; MONTAUK
<BR>7502&nbsp;&nbsp; WASHINGTON&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74
<BR>7503&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74
<BR>7504&nbsp;&nbsp; QUAKER CITY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>7505&nbsp;&nbsp; MARYLAND&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74
<BR>7506&nbsp;&nbsp; ILLINOIS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74
<BR>7507&nbsp;&nbsp; PENNSYLVANIA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>7508&nbsp;&nbsp; CHICAGOAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74A
<BR>7509&nbsp;&nbsp; OHIO&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74D
<BR>7510&nbsp;&nbsp; THE PITTSBURGHER&nbsp;&nbsp; Z74D
<BR>7511&nbsp;&nbsp; THE DUQUESNE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74E

<P>Several notes on the copy sheet:
<BR>"This tracing supersedes D89752 made obsolete on account of changing
to 'FUTURA' style letters and numerals.&nbsp; 8-16-39"
<BR>"The name 'NEW YORK' on car number 100 changed to 'THE NEW YORKER'
- the name 'HARRISBURG' on car number 7525 [a Z62 class car] changed to
'YOUNGSTOWN'.&nbsp; 3-21-41"
<BR>"This tracing has been made obsolete and is superseded by tracing B427840&nbsp;
1-6-43."

<P>Photographic information would add the following list:

<P>number&nbsp;&nbsp; name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
class
<BR>100&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Chicagoan
<BR>7504&nbsp;&nbsp; Quaker City&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74?
<BR>7504&nbsp;&nbsp; WM..&nbsp; Penn&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Z74?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "William Penn"
<BR>7507

<P>The following are&nbsp; excerpts from the&nbsp; <I>Pennsy Journal</I>'s:

<P>"...published in <I>Rails Northeast </I>a list of Pennsy business cars.
....&nbsp; Photos of some of the earliest cars are not available or known
to me. ... Photos for cars after 1920 do exist and cars that went total
overhaul in the early 1950's have extensive detail photos available as
well."&nbsp; Vol. I&nbsp; No. 2

<P>"...A total of 40 business cars were in operation during the late 1920's
and early 1930 period.&nbsp; Part of the difficulty in maintaining a history
of such equipment is related to the fact that many different cars may have
had the same name over a period of forty years."&nbsp;&nbsp; Vol. II No.
3.
<BR>For instance; 7505 appears to have had at least four names during its
PRR years - Baltimore, Quaker City,&nbsp; Pennsylvania and Philadelphia.

<P>The best approach when modeling any particular car is to find a photo
of the car for the year you are modeling.&nbsp;&nbsp; Some appear to have
electro-mechanical refrigeration while others used ice.

<P>cos
<BR>wsbcos</HTML>

--------------835A0A9D240A6B301C872D44--


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:30:57 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] X29's in "Merchandise Service"

In a message dated 12/16/98 9:08:43 AM Central Standard Time, dennis@bbn.com
writes:

<< As far as the literature says, (Brady McGuire
 s article in the Keystone), the X29 never got the
 silver-band paint scheme.  White band w/CK and SK only. >>

Page 71 of the Painting and lettering Guide I shows an X29B in the silver-band
scheme.  Don't know if X29 had it but will check other sources.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:33:20 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Staufer and Business car names


 Hi Folks...(I sometimes say folks as i don't know if we have a lady PRR
  fans on this list).
  I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you all for the fast responces
  for Mr. Staufer's address and for the information on the Z class
  business cars.

  I'd also like to go ahead and Wish you all a Happy Holiday for this year
  and many more to come...(I use Happy Holidays since i don't know any of y'
alls faiths and that is something that this list is not really about
although a important thing.) Ours is a fellowship of fans of the PRR. I
decided to send this now as some of you might be out of town in the next two
weeks or so. So enjoy your family,your freinds and your time off he he he.

                                        Til Later
                                        Hank Mummert
  


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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:12:38 -0500
From: Bradley Lamca <blamca@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [PRR] Turn of the Century

I am a new railroader and wish to model some turn of th century scenes
from the Tyrone/Spruce Creek , Pa area.
I need to know some engine numbers, cars, and paint schemes to get
started.
Anyone know...or know where to find this information??

Thanks,
Brad Lamca


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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:33:22 -0800
From: "Eugene E. Deimling" <eedlg@concentric.net>
Subject: [PRR] H6sb

Can someone tell me when the H6sb 2-8-0 last ran?   Where were they
commonly used?   Is there a steam roster available showing assignments
of locos and dispositionn dates?

Gene Deimling
Los Gatos, CA


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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:34:29 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] non-PRR, but of interest to some folks

Don,
	It's nice to hear word about the Carter, and by inference, MC&SA
locos.  I made a trip up there from Houston in 1957 with Joe Thompson. 
The ex-Panama Mogul was running to Moscow - rode up & back in the
combine.  An extra treat was the Cotton Belt business car Fairlane,
formerly Henry Ford's, sitting on a siding in Moscow.

Steve Bartlett

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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:05:06 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] H6sb

 Howdy  All and Eugene:

The last assignments that I have are for 1944 - M.P.229 dated 11/1/44
New York Zone
New York Division
20 H6sb
Long Island Rail Road
0

Eastern Region
Philadelphia Division
4
Philadelphia Terminal Division
3
Atlantic Division
3
PRSL
0
Middle Division
0
Central Penn Division - Williamsport
10
Central Penn Division - Wilkes-Barre Division
0
Southern Division - Maryland Division
8
Southern Division - Delmarva Division
4

Central Region
Eastern Ohio Division - Eastern Division
6
Eastern Ohio Division - Panhandle Division
24
Western Pennsylvania Division - Pittsburgh Division
2
Western Pennsylvania Division -  Conemaugh Division
1
Western Pennsylvania Division - Monongahela Division
5
Northern Division - Buffalo Division
20
Norhtern Division - Renova Division
2
Lake Division - Cleveland Division
8
Lake Division - Erie and Ashtabula Division
7

Western Region
Southwestern Division - Columbus Division
8
Southwestern Division - Indianapolis Division
8
Southwestern Division - Cincinnati Division
3
Southwestern Division - St Louis Division
7
Norhtwestern Division - Toledo Division
5
Northwestern Division - Grand Rapids Division
2
Northwestern Division - Chicago Term. Division
9
Northwestern Division - Logansport Division
4
Northwestern Division - Fort Wayne Division
2

Altoona Works
6

So by 1944 the H6 class(s) that once numbered over 1200 engines is down to
176.
They are still listed in the Classification and Description of Locomotives
and Tenders from June 2, 1952.  IMHO they are almost all out of service by
this time - replaced by the hordes of Baldwin and EMD switchers that have
come on the roster by this time.

I can't find anything on when the last H6sb ran.

Cos
wsbcos.com


Eugene E. Deimling wrote:

> Can someone tell me when the H6sb 2-8-0 last ran?   Where were they
> commonly used?   Is there a steam roster available showing assignments
> of locos and dispositionn dates?
>
> Gene Deimling
> Los Gatos, CA
>
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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:06:01 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/  Lines slightly South ..??!!!,

***Hi-

Funny you should mention that, as I just saw an ebay item, a book on this
century-plus operating short line and was wondering if it was still
running..??!!!

Does any list member know of anyone down that way..??? Besides the
Clintons..???
Bill***

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:27:06 EST
Subject: [PRR] H33 vs. the ACF 1958cf LO

In a message dated 12/16/98 1:53:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes:

> <Turning to the H33 car, I see a covered hopper that was all-welded, but
>  otherwise seems to resemble the 1958-cu. ft. design ACF offered before
1940.
>  All resources I
>   have use words like "Altoona designed."  Does anyone know of material that
>  might establish a relationship of these 200 cars (built Altoona 1953) to
>  ACF?>>
>  
>  Rick, although the cars resemble the AC&F car there are distinct
differences
>  between the Altoona built cars and AC&F cars.  The first being the 
> overhanging
>  roof eve most commonly found on box car.  The second being the roof ribs,
>  there are 5, and they are not as noticeable from a shot taken at ground 
> level.
>  The third being that the side stakes were Z braces and not the traditional
>  Round Edged Flanged Channels ("hat sections").  Most of these differences 
> were
>  not represented in my article written for MM several years back, but they 
> have
>  come to light through research done since the article.  An interesting car 
> to
>  say the least.  
>   
Yes, definitely a car with PRR's stamp of individuality on it.  There are lots
of important detail differences between the two designs, and I didn't mean to
imply there weren't.

What I'm struck by, though, is that in 1952, PRR is still turning out H30's,
which are distinctly different from any vendor car.  But in 1953, Altoona
designers suddenly comes up with a 1958 cubic foot car that apes--in
dimensions and general construction--the 1958 cubic foot 70 ton car that had
been built by ACF (and others) since 1939.  It's got channel bolster posts,
and even those fat side sill extensions that characterize the ACF design in
question.  This is built and delivered as the H33, although Pennsy builds it
all-welded and with a roof and details from in-house, and as a kicker applies
roller bearing trucks (in 1953, no less).  An interesting move, I think,
adapting industry practice instead of going it alone as usual.

The real shocker comes in 1954 through 1958, when the followon is to order the
ACF's competition, the new (?) PS-2.  This 2003 cubic foot 70 tonner is a
totally vendor car, though some are assembled from kits in PRR's shops.  This
is not one but two radical changes--
1) somebody decided to go with the PS-2 proprietary design, and then also 
2) decided to outsource a big part of the fabrication and assembly.  
The only excuse I can think of is that the economy was good for much of the
50's, and the railroad shops could have been maxed out with other programs.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West 

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:27:09 EST
Subject: [PRR] Correcting my H34 LO mistakes

In a message dated 12/16/98 1:53:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes:

> Rick all my research shows that PRR's own Altoona Shops built the H-34A and
>  the H-34D's.  They were built from Pullman Standard supplied parts.  The
>  H-34,34B & C were Pullman Standard built in lot numbers 8176, 8278B, 8378B 
> and
>  8430 (James Kinkaid's article in Aug '98 MM).

Speaking of the H34's, I can't believe I typed the production sites completely
backwards on my original posting.  Perhaps I was suffering from advanced
Christmasitis.  Fortunately, you and Eric Neubauer caught my mistake
immediately.  Many thanks to both of you for your timely warning that I'd
blown it.

Yes, the H34A and H34D were railroad built.  The rest were built by P-S, and
in their Butler PA plant.  Eric's info explains that there was a total of 6
orders because the H34C was ordered twice in two different years.

Putting his info and your info together with what I've been digging up, the
H33 and H34 orders begin to look like:
Class	Builder	Dates		Order				Bolster Posts  	Paint Scheme
H33 	PRR 	4=6-53		?					Channel		CK
H34 	PS But 	4=6-54		Lot 8176			Channel		SK1a
H34A 	PRR 	5=6-55		?					Channel		SK1b
H34B 	PS But 	11=12-55	Lot 8278B			Channel?		SK1b? (need pix)
H34C 	PS But 	7=8-57 		Lot 8378B (first 100)	Hat sec.		SK1b
H34C 	PS But 	4-58 		Lot 8430 (last 300)	Hat sec.		SK2a
H34D 	PRR 	10=12-58	?					Hat sec.		SK2a

Three more bits of fun:
1) When the H33, H34A, and H34D were built in-house, which shop would do the
work?  It would be nice to know how "un-boxcar-like" the assembly process was.
2) The H34D was legally "Rebuilt 1958."  Sources I've seen so far make fun of
this, since it's obvious most of the body was new fabrication work.  But what
was the legal fiction that let these be rebuilt cars?  Trucks? Recyled brake
gear? None of the above?
3) I went down in my basement last night and took a quick look at the layout.
Of the MDC cars that I lettered for H34's 30 years ago, I didn't see one that
had the right car numbers with the right class with the right lettering scheme
on the right (channel post) carbody.  I was totally luckless, which is normal
when one works without photos.  No wonder there are some people who'd like to
suppress all prototype information... <G><G>. 

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West 

  

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From: "DFCramer" <dfc1@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Turn of the Century
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:52:33 -0500

> I am a new railroader and wish to model some turn of th century scenes
> from the Tyrone/Spruce Creek , Pa area.
> I need to know some engine numbers, cars, and paint schemes to get
> started.
> Anyone know...or know where to find this information??

Try "On the Main Line" by Edwin Alexander or "Pennsylvania Railroad, A
Pictorial History" also by Alexander.

> Thanks,
> Brad Lamca

DFCramer--Teacher,Trombonist, Historian, Conductor
                    dfc1@alltel.net
 Come Play With Us, Come Hear Us Play
  http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652


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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:12:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr."  <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>
Subject: [PRR] non-PRR: D&A steam

I got some responses to my post yesterday, so for anyone interested here is the 
latest on steam on the Dardanelle and Russellville.



From: "Tim Robbins" <trobbins@cswnet.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:27:55 -0600
To: "J Stephen Sandifer" <jssand@flash.net>
Cc: "Railspot" <railspot@railspot.com>
Subject: Re: RS: Question

The Dardanelle & Russellville should be using steam for occassional freight
trip until Mid-Late January.  Our plan is to have two GMD-1's sent to the
D&R and two to the Ouachita Railroad just after christmas.  The lawyers
(sales contracts) and the financing company are going to delay the actual
purchase until about the 24th.

I will post an update of our steam schedule when it is available.  The next
steam up will be saturday or monday we think.  I will know more tomorrow.

Thanks

Tim Robbins
V P
D & R Railroad


Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551-5926
409/740-4540;  fax 409/740-5002
harperd@tamug.tamu.edu


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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: [PRR] More Track Pan "Stuff"
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:41:58 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE2902.3C0FE2A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Okay you track pan guys,

I know this was the hot topic last week but I just stumbled onto =
something that I don't think was mentioned previously. See photo page 48 =
in Paul Carleton's Under Pennsy Wires. Four track pans in electrified =
territory at Wilmington substation. No doubt during construction before =
power was activated. This Henry Albrecht shot is good because it shows =
start pan/end pan fixed signals (switch lamps) in the six foot between =
tracks 1/ 2 and 3/4 as well as on the shoulder. No cobblestone drainage =
system  here either, just plain old ballast.=20

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE2902.3C0FE2A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Okay you track pan =
guys,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I know this was the hot topic last =
week but I=20
just stumbled onto something that I don't think was mentioned =
previously. See=20
photo page 48 in Paul Carleton's <EM>Under Pennsy Wires.</EM> Four track =
pans in=20
electrified territory at Wilmington substation. No doubt during =
construction=20
before power was activated. This Henry Albrecht shot is good because it =
shows=20
start pan/end pan fixed signals (switch lamps) in the six foot between =
tracks 1/=20
2 and 3/4 as well as on the shoulder. No cobblestone drainage =
system&nbsp; here=20
either, just plain old ballast. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Al</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE2902.3C0FE2A0--


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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:43:16 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] H6sb

	Once the backbone of mainline freight service most H6sb were retired prior to
WW2 because electrification and the depression. Obviously few if any
locomotives of any type were scrapped once the war began. 
	Some may have lasted longer than one might suspect, as yard locomotives: the
Strasburg's example has a 4" steam line - right from the steam dome, to behind
the pilot, for deicing switches.This locomotive may have been "fired up" for
winter only MOW service - even after it was no longer on active roster.
	Will check my RRMOP catalog for further info - tonight
Dick Ross

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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:24:27 EST
Subject: [PRR] Play it Safe!

Tonight while putting a traction motor and wheelset back into the rear truck
of our Alco S1, the motor slipped off the nose support and crushed one of our
volunteer's fingers between the axle journal collar and side of the journal
box.  We got him to the hospital, and although the finger looked pretty
mangled its most likely just broken.

This is just a reminder to all of us out there involved in railroad
preservation to think about what you're doing, don't put your hands or arms
anywhere a sudden slip could catch you, and keep vigilant of the guy working
with you.  I didn't like that he had his hand in that journal box, and made a
half hearted mention that he shouldn't have it there.  But I said warnings
like that many times tonight.  I have been around railroads long enough to
know that this stuff is very unpredicatable, and when you're working with a
couple of enthusiastic but unexperienced railfans you've got to watch
everything and everyone very closely.  

This stuff is supposed to be fun- but not on nights like tonight.

Rick

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:46:56 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] GP 30
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

And thank you.

Will tell more as tales unfold.  Working the history of the Cape Charles
train shed.

Merry Christmas to all,

SGT York

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:08:11 EST PRRSignals@aol.com writes:
>****Thanks in advance..!!!..Happy holidays...
>And....please do some more info / stories on the Delmarva area, that  
>never
>ceases to be of interest to me ..!!!
>Happy Holidays, Bill***
>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:32:58 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] GP 30 P2K
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

It's "Railfan and Railroad" January 1987.  Lists 1st owners, builders
dates and order #, and renumberings.

SGT York

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:30:08 EST PRRSignals@aol.com writes:
>***Hi, SGT York - 
>
>Ummm, Please point me to RMC issue, send listing, whatever....friends 
>are
>doing GP30 Research, might be of help..???   Thanks, Bill***
>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:27:14 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] GP 30 P2K
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

Coming March 1999 as phase II.  No PRR in first batch.

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:39:02 -0500 (EST) RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER)
writes:
>Hi SSGT York,
>Is there a P2K GP30?????  Or is it a possible
>future release?
>Rich
>
>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:32:58 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] GP 30 P2K
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

It's "Railfan and Railroad" January 1987.  Lists 1st owners, builders
dates and order #, and renumberings.

SGT York

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:30:08 EST PRRSignals@aol.com writes:
>***Hi, SGT York - 
>
>Ummm, Please point me to RMC issue, send listing, whatever....friends 
>are
>doing GP30 Research, might be of help..???   Thanks, Bill***
>

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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:58:54 -0500
From: Dan Cupper <dan@cwix.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] "The Pennsy" magazine

Season's Greetings to Jerry and the list!


Jerry wrote:
> 
> Indexing The Pennsy . . . <snip>
> Question: The first couple of issues I am scanning are from 1953. Their
> table of contents indicate that they are Volume 2. One can assume, then,
> that 1952 saw the premiere of this magazine.


The issue of June 1952 was the first.  There was no predecessor, the
only comparable periodical being the Mutual Magazine, which was a
monthly semi-official organ of the PRR that started around 1915 and is
still published today by the Mutual Beneficial Association, a kind of
voluntary, PRR-family combined Railroad Retirement Board, Social
Security Administration, and savings & loan (and also similar in some
ways to the PRR Voluntary Relief Fund and other PRR-related provident
societies/organizations.) 
 
> I know of issues as late as 1967. Does anyone know for sure if "The
> Pennsy" made it to the merger? I'd like to know what time span I am
> looking at in preparing the index. Thanks.

Yes, it made it to the merger -- actually, in a way, to the Conrail
merger. The Penn Central Post used the same style and tabloid format as
The Pennsy, and much of the same staff, and it was produced in
Phialdelphia. NYC's Headlights periodical, which retained a stapled
magazine format right up to the PC merger, was discontinued. Penn
Central Post lasted until the coming of Conrail.

The Pennsy magazine started off strong and was published monthly in 1952
and 1953. Then in 1954, it dropped to 11 times a year (July and August
were combined). Effective in 1958, it changed to bimonthly. In 1964, the
size was reduced for four issues (March-April, May-June, July-Aug, and
Sept-Oct), then it was further cheapened with the move to a semimonthly
tabloid, which continued to the PRR-NYC merger.


Dan


Dan Cupper
dan@cwix.com
Acts 4:12

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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:40:57 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] More Track Pan "Stuff"


---Alan Buchan <abbuchan@familyconnect.net> wrote:
>
> Okay you track pan guys,
<snip> 
> Four track pans in electrified territory at
Wilmington substation. No doubt during construction
before power was activated.
<snip>

I seem to recall reading sometime in the misty past
of electric locomotives equipped with steam boilers
for train heating, and scoops to pick up water from
track pans so that they wouldn't have to stop, and to
avoid having someone splash water around in the
neighorhood of the catenary.

Then again, I've been known to hallucinate.

Anyone else recall any such thing?

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob
_________________________________________________________
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From: Da72jmk@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:10:46 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] "The Pennsy" magazine

In a message dated 12/17/98 3:12:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

<< Question: The first couple of issues I am scanning are from 1953. Their 
 table of contents indicate that they are Volume 2. One can assume, then, 
 that 1952 saw the premiere of this magazine. Was there a predecessor? If 
 so, what was it called?>>

According to my data, the first issue was June 1952.  Beginning in 1954, some
issues were for two months.  There was a special issue in October 1955 to
announce the new regional structure.  There was also a book(let) with pictures
published sometime in the early 50's that went to Pennsy subscribers and to
people who got the annual reports.  I can post the name later tonight if
anyone is interested.
 
 <>

Sometime in the 60's the format changed to be more like a newspaper.  

Hope this is helpful.

John Keel

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Subject: Re: [PRR] More Track Pan "Stuff"
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 16:00:31 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/17/98 3:40 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote:

>I seem to recall reading sometime in the misty past
>of electric locomotives equipped with steam boilers
>for train heating, and scoops to pick up water from
>track pans so that they wouldn't have to stop, and to
>avoid having someone splash water around in the
>neighorhood of the catenary.

I do remember references to steam boilers for train heat in electric 
locomotives. However, I can't imagine that, for this purpose, more water 
would be required between major stops (e.g.: NYC to Philly, Philly to 
Baltimore, Baltimore to Washington, Philly to Harrisburg).

I really doubt that they couldn't make these trips on one fill, and the 
layovers at these major stops would certainly allow for refilling.

I could be totally off base here, but I don't think refilling en-route 
"for train heating" would have been necessary.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: [PRR] "The Pennsy" magazine
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 14:04:40 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I have begun work on an index for "The Pennsy", the employee newsletter 
of the PRR. The index will also include downloadable PDF files of many of 
the issues.

(See kc.pennsyrr.com/library/pennsy.html)

Question: The first couple of issues I am scanning are from 1953. Their 
table of contents indicate that they are Volume 2. One can assume, then, 
that 1952 saw the premiere of this magazine. Was there a predecessor? If 
so, what was it called?

I know of issues as late as 1967. Does anyone know for sure if "The 
Pennsy" made it to the merger? I'd like to know what time span I am 
looking at in preparing the index. Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:29:07 -0500
From: DjM <shazada@mis.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR photos

This information is for those unaware and may be missing this,

Bud Laws has been posting some incredible color Pennsy steam photos on
the alt.binaries.pictures.rail news group.
Last night's offering: PRR I1 #4311, 4308 and 4249 on the Shamokin
Branch
from 5/12/1956.

-=D
--
David Mikulec
The DT&I Modelers Page
http://DTI.Railfan.net



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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:12:51 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] More Track Pan "Stuff"

>I do remember references to steam boilers for train heat in electric
>locomotives. However, I can't imagine that, for this purpose, more water
>would be required between major stops (e.g.: NYC to Philly, Philly to
>Baltimore, Baltimore to Washington, Philly to Harrisburg).
>
>I really doubt that they couldn't make these trips on one fill, and the
>layovers at these major stops would certainly allow for refilling.
>
>I could be totally off base here, but I don't think refilling en-route
>"for train heating" would have been necessary.

Hi All,

I have never heard of electrics (read GG-1s) with scoops or taking water on
the fly.  The GG-1 (and P-5 before being relegated to freight only service)
had oil fired boilers to produce steam for train heat.  This led to the
interesting situation of electics producing smoke!  Also, both the oil and
water supply had to be managed carefully, and I have read several
interesting stories of firemen running out (and VERY unhappy conductors and
passengers!).  The oil supply suffered the same problems as oil used as
locomotive fuel in tenders in cold weather...that is it congealed and did
not like to flow.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry

PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com
       _               _
      / \             / \
  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
 |- _______/ O     \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 10:18:44 CST
Subject: Re: [PRR] More Track Pan "Stuff"

Hi, all,

>>I seem to recall reading sometime in the misty past
>>of electric locomotives equipped with steam boilers
>>for train heating, and scoops to pick up water from
>>track pans so that they wouldn't have to stop, and to
>>avoid having someone splash water around in the
>>neighorhood of the catenary.

While I cannot claim authoritative knowledge on this, remember that the PRR 
was using steam under catenary past WW II.  I seem to recall that there was 
a time shortly after the initial electrification between NYC and Washington 
that there were problems with the initial electric engines (the P5's?), 
causing them to be withdrawn from service.  This required the temporary 
return of K4s, etc., which would have profited from the track pans.  The 
point - there were probably some track pans in place after electrificaiton 
but they were probably for the occasinal steam engine only.

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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From: "Andrew Harmantas" <frisco484@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] 
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:05:16 PST

Fellow SPF-ers,
Did many, some, few, of the K4s (read" Kay four ess) have the inductive 
train phone antenna on the tender deck?  In looking at my references, I 
see little to go on.  Most did not, it appears.  I am facing a project 
involving two tender decks of two K4s double-headed, and I thought I'd 
ask first to prevent the inevitable plague of nit-picking from all the 
in-the-know nits.

Thanks,
Andrew Harmantas

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Magazine
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:53:43 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE2A5B.88658E20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

More trivia on the Pennsy magazine towards the end.

Jan-Feb 64 was last issue in 8.5" x 11.75" magazine format.
Mar-Apr 64 through Sep-Oct 64 issues were in 8.5" x 11" magazine format.
A new format what I call "folded newspaper style" was issued monthly and =
started with the Nov. 30, 1964 issue and ran through the Feb 1, 1968 =
issue. The first issue of the PC Post was dated Mar 1, 1968 and was =
still in the "folded newspaper style" but slightly larger size. I =
stopped collecting at the end of 1968. I have bound annual volumes from =
1959 through 1969 inclusive.

A joyous holiday season to all.

Al


------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE2A5B.88658E20
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>More trivia on the<EM> Pennsy</EM> =
magazine=20
towards the end.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jan-Feb 64 was last issue in 8.5&quot; x 11.75&quot; =
magazine=20
format.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mar-Apr 64 through Sep-Oct 64 issues were in =
8.5&quot; x=20
11&quot; magazine format.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A new format what I call &quot;folded newspaper =
style&quot;=20
was issued monthly and started with the Nov. 30, 1964 issue and ran =
through the=20
Feb 1, 1968 issue. The first issue of the PC <EM>Post</EM> was dated Mar =
1, 1968=20
and was still in the &quot;folded newspaper style&quot; but slightly =
larger=20
size. I stopped collecting at the end of 1968. I have bound annual =
volumes from=20
1959 through 1969 inclusive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A joyous holiday season to all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Al</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE2A5B.88658E20--


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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:16:59 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: [PRR] more water & track questions

Hi all,

Thanks for all the suggestions on track w/catenary near water!  As I read
them there are several interesting sites:

1)  The area just North of Bell, 4 track, next to the DE River (navigable
for aircraft carriers!)...simple to model, but not a lot of space left on a
4 track module for water.
2)  The area from Perryville to Port Deposit, especially
Minnick...complicated to model
3)  The Gunpowder River bridge (causeway?) just North of Chase MD...not
sure how tough to model...I need photos of this bridge.
4)  Edgewood (just North of Gunpowder?  Bush River?)...not sure how tough
to model...I need photos of this bridge.

and two that have not come up, but that have me thinking...

5)  The swing bridge over the Schuylkill (spelling?..SureKill!) River on
the Greys Ferry Branch in South Philly...really complicated to model, but a
very nifty scene.
6)  The swing bridge over the Christina River on the Shellpot branch, Port
of Wilmington...I'm REALLY leaning towards this one!!!!!!  The bridge is 2
track w/ catenary, is close to water level, looks very similar to a
standard truss bridge, could be made to operate <G>, and appears in
numerous photographs.  I think that the bridge could be modeled easily
using 2 Central Valley truss bridge kits plus some additional CV girders.

Now for the questions:
1)  Does anyone out there have details on how the catenary was handled for
the swing bridges?
2)  Does anyone out there have specific details of there Christina River
Bridge?
3)  Why does the area from below Wilmington to Washington seem to get very
little photo coverage in most PRR books (for example, I have yet to find a
photo of the above mentioned Gunpowder River Bridge)?  Seems like Lines
South suffer the same fate as Lines West ;^>

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry

PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com
       _               _
      / \             / \
  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
 |- _______/ O     \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
 | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
 |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________|
 | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0  



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:03:18 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] "The Pennsy" magazine


--------------1F606BC90794F9F831ABBF3F
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy All:

I found in an old box of stuff form my PRR benefactor, several copies of
Pennsylvania Railroad INFORMATION.  Also in the box were a couple of issues
of the Pennsylvania Standard.   The dates are all in the mid 20's.   The
early issue have "for the Public and Employees" under the title.  It is gone
from 1926 to 1929.  I have various issues - they appear to be general reading
material and the like.  The Standard is a small newspaper - carring copy of
labor and legislation that is/was important at the time.

Maybe sometime in the future I can get these posted.

Cos
wsbcos.com

Jerry wrote:

> I have begun work on an index for "The Pennsy", the employee newsletter
> of the PRR. The index will also include downloadable PDF files of many of
> the issues.
>
> (See kc.pennsyrr.com/library/pennsy.html)
>
> Question: The first couple of issues I am scanning are from 1953. Their
> table of contents indicate that they are Volume 2. One can assume, then,
> that 1952 saw the premiere of this magazine. Was there a predecessor? If
> so, what was it called?
>
> I know of issues as late as 1967. Does anyone know for sure if "The
> Pennsy" made it to the merger? I'd like to know what time span I am
> looking at in preparing the index. Thanks.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>    Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
> Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>    Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
> WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>    The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on
> special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------1F606BC90794F9F831ABBF3F
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy All:

<P>I found in an old box of stuff form my PRR benefactor, several copies
of Pennsylvania Railroad <I>INFORMATION.</I>&nbsp; Also in the box were
a couple of issues of the <I>Pennsylvania Standard.</I>&nbsp;&nbsp; The
dates are all in the mid 20's.&nbsp;&nbsp; The early issue have "for the
Public and Employees" under the title.&nbsp; It is gone from 1926 to 1929.&nbsp;
I have various issues - they appear to be general reading material and
the like.&nbsp; The <I>Standard</I> is a small newspaper - carring copy
of labor and legislation that is/was important at the time.

<P>Maybe sometime in the future I can get these posted.

<P>Cos
<BR>wsbcos.com

<P>Jerry wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I have begun work on an index for "The Pennsy", the
employee newsletter
<BR>of the PRR. The index will also include downloadable PDF files of many
of
<BR>the issues.

<P>(See kc.pennsyrr.com/library/pennsy.html)

<P>Question: The first couple of issues I am scanning are from 1953. Their
<BR>table of contents indicate that they are Volume 2. One can assume,
then,
<BR>that 1952 saw the premiere of this magazine. Was there a predecessor?
If
<BR>so, what was it called?

<P>I know of issues as late as 1967. Does anyone know for sure if "The
<BR>Pennsy" made it to the merger? I'd like to know what time span I am
<BR>looking at in preparing the index. Thanks.

<P>------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>Jerry Britton, SPF&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jerry@dsop.com
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
<BR>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at <A HREF="http://kc.pennsyrr.com">http://kc.pennsyrr.com</A>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
<BR>WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!

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Subject: [PRR] Freight Car Survey
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 09:58:14 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I've been a bit slow in getting out the results of the Freight Car 
Survey. I will do it tonight. That being the case, here's a "last chance" 
to get in your two cents...

What PRR classes of freight cars (including MoW, cabins, and related) 
would you like to see produced? 

If they are already produced by someone, why are you listing them again 
(e.g. price, detail, etc.)?

Indicate scale. Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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From: "Laird, Bill" <Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com>
Subject: [PRR] Greenville Terminal
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:56:22 -0600

I just received Issue 24 of "Transfer", the June-Sept 1998 periodical issue
of the Rail-Marine Information Group (RMIG).  The lead article is about
float yard design and operation.  Included in the article are two detail
track plans of the PRR Greenville Terminal.  The first is the East End
Classification Yard circa 1912 and the second is titled Pennsylvania's
Greenville Terminal circa 1932.  The seven page article, which covers the
Port of New York, includes diagrams and descriptions of several terminals
including CNJ, LV, NH, and LI in addition to PRR.

For those unfamiliar with the RMIG it is an organization of fans interested
in vessels, other equipment, operations, and history of the transportation
of railroad equipment over water.  While the RMIG covers rail-marine
activities over all of North America, over the years the "Transfer" has had
many articles, diagrams, and pictures of New York harbor including lots of
PRR stuff.  For more information on RMIG contact John Teichmoeller,
Coordinator RMIG, 12107 Mt. Albert Rd., Ellicott City, MD 21042.  Back
issues of the "Transfer" are available.

Bill Laird
Support Our Troops



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From: cschlund@sfsu.edu
Date:          Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:21:16 
Subject:       Re: [PRR] Z74 Business Cars

Hi Wayne & list members,

Wayne wrote:

> Pennsy Journal Vol. II No. 3 has the location and detail of car names
> for 9-25-39
> I lists the following Z74 class cars:
> number   name                       class
> 30       HARRISBURG
> 60       WILMINGTON
> 90       DELAWARE               Z74B
> 100     NEW YORK                Z74D
> 170     NEWARK
> 180     PENNSYLVANIA       Z74C
> 450     DELMARVA
> 1027   CLEVELAND
> 2000   MONTAUK
> 2200   LONG ISLAND
> 3998
> 3999   BALTIMORE
> 7501   ST. LOUIS
> 7502   WASHINGTON          Z74
> 7503   DUQUESNE              Z74
> 7504                                        Z74D
> 7505   MARYLAND               Z74
> 7506   ILLINOIS                     Z74
> 7507   PHILADELPHIA        Z74D
> 7508   CHICAGO                  Z74A
> 7509   OHIO                           Z74D
> 7510   NEW JERSEY           Z74D
> 7511   THE PITTSBURGHER  Z74E

I'll mention that the car Ohio stored was in Lackawanna, NY
(near Buffalo) when I was there on business several years back.
I have no idea if it's still there though...

  -  Claus

-------------------------***{}***-------------------------

Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry)
Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA

Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale
passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif



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Subject: Re: [PRR] more water & track questions
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 10:32:39 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/18/98 9:16 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. 
(smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote:

>3)  Why does the area from below Wilmington to Washington seem to get very
>little photo coverage in most PRR books (for example, I have yet to find a
>photo of the above mentioned Gunpowder River Bridge)?  Seems like Lines
>South suffer the same fate as Lines West ;^>

Triumph V, if the series makes it that far, is supposed to be on the 
Maryland Division. There's hope!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:32:30 EST
Subject: [PRR] "The Pennsy" magazines

***( this was Originally sent 12/17, 16:51 EST, bounced back ...)..
The First PENNSY was June 1952, Vol 1 No 1...last was Feb 1, 1968, a " Day
that will Live in Infamy", to borrow from a Past President....

We have compiled a Listing of ALL Issues ( 162, depending upon how you count
for Special, Extras, Supplements, etc.) and it will be published in The
KEYSTONE shortly.

I am only Three Short of a " Full Deck", so to speak ( some others may
disagree on that point....hahhaha.)
BUT, if anyone can assist, I need:
Jul 1953, April 1954 and the 11/30/64 issues...
ALSO, the Dec 1968 PC Post to complete that collection !!!

Thanks fer any assistance, leads, etc...Happy Holidays ( right, Bubbles ??)
Bill***

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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:02:33 -0500
From: bobsin@nac.net
Subject: [PRR] Steam Heat (GG1s)

Operating timetables have lots of lore on how steam heat was
managed, particularly in the New York Penn Station area.

>From PC NY Region TT #2, 12/1/68:

WESTWARD TRAINS SUNNYSIDE YARD

(a) Steam heat boiler must be in service before leaving engine
house storage yard.  When maximum boiler pressure has been obtained,
open main steam heat valve wide.  Vent condensation by blowing
steam through both the front and rear end valve.  Leave end valve 
cracked open.  Maintain boiler on low flame or steam generator
enroute to train.

(b) Before coupling to train, maximum boiler pressure must be obtained 
. . .

(c) Maintain maximum boiler pressure and do not extinguish fire
in boiler until after leaving F Interlocking Station and
scavenge boiler of gases prior to entering East River Tunnel.
Fire in boiler must be extinguished between  East Portals of
East River Tunnels and West Portals of North River Tunnels, excepting:
Penn Central A.C. electric engines may fire boiler in low flame in 
A Yard, New York, to blow out steam pipes to prevent freezing.

++++++

It goes on to say that enginemen relight the boiler after leaving
the tunnel, vent condensation at Newark, start heating the rear
cars immediately, and the front cars after passing Elizabeth.

Westward trains shut off the boilers at Portal and had to 
scavenge gases before entering the tunnel.

There is also discussion of locomotives equipped with Vapor Steam
Generators, which can be in service continuously.  Perhaps these
used electricity to generate the steam?  NHRR EP-5 units 370-379
had these generators; no indication whether some GG1s also may have
had them.

John Bobsin


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From: Eichhorn@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:55:04 EST
Subject: [PRR] ID'ing a PRR Steam Bell

Hi Gang,

I received a call today from a reporter of a local newspaper, and he is
attempting to identify a bell (owned now by a doctor, who recently purchased a
house (with bell included), thought to belong (at one time) to a family member
of the Pullman Company. This reporter would like to write an article on the
bell and the locomotive from which it came. This is a large brass bell and is
dated 1911 and has the number 3948 inscribed on it.  Could the number 3948 be
an engine number? This bell now resides in East Hampton, NY, out on Long
Island, but how and when it arrived there is an unknown.  The reporter
contacted Ron Ziel, the well known RR historian and author, and he indicated
that it probably was not of LIRR origin. The LIRR did however lease numerous
steam power from the Pennsy many moons ago. If in fact the number 3948 might
have been a Pennsy steam number, would/could anyone venture an educated guess
as to the class of locomotive having that number and any other information
that might be useful to the reporter?

Thanks,
George   

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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:44:09 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] more water & track questions
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

Bruce, 

I grew up here and would love an answer to that.  Try Penn Central Power
and the RF&P book that came out around 1994.  Can't remember the title,
but one author of the RF&P book has the 1st name Deanne.  Both books have
a couple of photos of the NEC south of Wilmington (PC book shows
Wilmington's viaduct).  Borrow either one if you can.

SGT York

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:16:59 -0600 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
>3)  Why does the area from below Wilmington to Washington seem to get 
>very
>little photo coverage in most PRR books (for example, I have yet to 
>find a
>photo of the above mentioned Gunpowder River Bridge)?  Seems like 
>Lines
>South suffer the same fate as Lines West ;^>
>
>Happy Rails
>Bruce
>
>Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
>Scott-Ritchey Research Center
>334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
>http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
>
>There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave 
>Barry
>
>PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com
>       _               _
>      / \             / \
>  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
> |- _______/ O     \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
> | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
> |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________|
> | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0  
>
>
>
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>

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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:53:15 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] more water & track questions
From: staffsgtyork@juno.com

OOOOOhrahh!  So, are they tucking Delmarva in it's own division
(Chesapeake Region), or are they counting when it became part of the
Maryland Division?

SGT York

On Fri, 18 Dec 98 10:32:39 -0500 Jerry <jerry@dsop.com> writes:
>On 12/18/98 9:16 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. 
>(smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote:
>
>>3)  Why does the area from below Wilmington to Washington seem to get 
>very
>>little photo coverage in most PRR books (for example, I have yet to 
>find a
>>photo of the above mentioned Gunpowder River Bridge)?  Seems like 
>Lines
>>South suffer the same fate as Lines West ;^>
>
>Triumph V, if the series makes it that far, is supposed to be on the 
>Maryland Division. There's hope!
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
>   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!
>
>
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Subject: [PRR] SUMMARY: Freight Car Survey
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 17:15:17 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

We surveyed the list membership for what freight cars (including MoW, 
cabins, and "other equipemnt") that they would like to see produced in 
model form. If a class was already modeled, they were to indicate why 
they'd like to see a new model (detail, price, etc.).

Out of 275+ subscribers, there were only 15 respondents. Unlike the 
locomotive survey, there was very little concensus except for 5 votes for 
an N8 cabin, 2 votes for 25' TrucTrain trailers, and 2 votes for GLa cars 
less expensive and simpler than Westerfield (e.g. Bowser or Red Caboose).

Here are the full results:

F25a flat -- 1 vote
     don't know why, just like 'em
F39a flat
F42 Depressed Center Flat. -- 1 vote
FM merchandise container cars -- 1 vote
G36 -- 1 vote
G38 and/or G39a -- 1 vote
G38 ore jenny -- 1 vote
G39 ore jenny -- 1 vote
GLa -- 2 votes
     Al Westerfield's model is superb (I have a few), but when you're
     modeling a coal branch you need plenty more.  I'd like to see a more
     affordable model in terms of price and construction time.  Should 
have add
     on details to fit different eras.  Could be lettered for more than 
the PRR,
     too!  I'd buy a dozen of the first release!

     Westerfield makes it but anyone modeling PRR in the
     30's-40's-50's needs a fleet of these things.  It is expensive and 
time
     consuming to assemble properly.
GPA - MoW ballast hopper -- 1 vote
H30a -- 1 vote
     Quintessential Pennsy covered hopper (IMHO). This class has also been
     available only in brass or craftsman kit (F&C).  H30a subclass could 
include
     fricition or roller bearing trucks.  MOW and sand service could 
extend the
     appeal of these to contemporary-era modelers.
H31c -- 1 vote
     Sentimental favorite.  Although not many in prototype numbers, this
     would be a big seller.
H35 hopper -- 1 vote
     to my knowledge never done
H45a Covered Hopper (ACF 3 bay - lined) -- 1 vote
     Atlas ACF is close - it's an H45
     (unlined) but details are different.
K7 or K8 stock car -- 1 vote
     one is on  long list of Westerfield
N6a or b -- 1 vote
     		a GOOD non brass (plastic?) 
N6a cabin -- 1 vote
N6b cabin -- 1 vote
N8 -- 5 votes
     In plastic please, so we can ALL afford it! (or afford a fleet
     of 'em!)
N52A cabin car (rebuilt) -- 1 vote
     I want several of them.
U4 MoW side dump -- 1 vote
     previously in brass c. 1993 by I think W&R
U6 MoW side dump -- 1 vote
     to my knowledge never done
X23 -- 1 vote
X26c -- 1 vote
     The USRA rebuild has seen a lot of interest on the list.  I'd be
     happy if Sunshine reissued their kit.
X31 or X32 -- 1 vote
     up to the level of detail of Intermountain/Red Caboose/P2K
X33 end door round roof -- 1 vote
X37 boxcars (the one with the inset in roof for roofwalk). -- 1 vote
     it is known that Sunshine makes one
X40b 60' "Merchandise Service" -- 1 vote
X51/a/b/c -- 1 vote
X55a -- 1 vote
X58 box -- 1 vote
"well car" -- 1 vote  
     Morning Sun's Color Guide has the car
     I want in the center photo on page 41.  I would prefer a riveted well
     car, as welded cars could be scratchbuilt much easier.
Unit crawler crane for use on class FM or class GR or GRA. -- 1 vote
Ford Ecoline -- 1 vote
      pick up truck for hy-rail.
25' original TrucTrain trailers -- 2 votes


-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:19:17 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] ID'ing a PRR Steam Bell

Howdy All and George:

The best that I can tell from a quick check of roster information is:
It may be a bell from a DD1.   DD1's were numbered from 3932 to 3949, 3952 to
3995.   These numbers where assigned when the units where built at Juniata in 1910
and 1911.   I have no information as to the disposition of DD1 3948 - it does not
appear in the 1944 M.P. 229.  It may also belong to an earlier class of PRR
locomotive too.   I would have to do more research for a number prior to the turn
of the century.   It could also belong to some other road too...

Cos
wsbcos.com

Eichhorn@aol.com wrote:

> Hi Gang,
>
> I received a call today from a reporter of a local newspaper, and he is
> attempting to identify a bell (owned now by a doctor, who recently purchased a
> house (with bell included), thought to belong (at one time) to a family member
> of the Pullman Company. This reporter would like to write an article on the
> bell and the locomotive from which it came. This is a large brass bell and is
> dated 1911 and has the number 3948 inscribed on it.  Could the number 3948 be
> an engine number? This bell now resides in East Hampton, NY, out on Long
> Island, but how and when it arrived there is an unknown.  The reporter
> contacted Ron Ziel, the well known RR historian and author, and he indicated
> that it probably was not of LIRR origin. The LIRR did however lease numerous
> steam power from the Pennsy many moons ago. If in fact the number 3948 might
> have been a Pennsy steam number, would/could anyone venture an educated guess
> as to the class of locomotive having that number and any other information
> that might be useful to the reporter?
>
> Thanks,
> George
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] SURVEY: Passenger Car Needs
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 21:38:29 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I know this one has been anticipated, so here it is...the passenger car 
survey!

Please list up to FIVE classes of PRR passenger cars (inc. head end) that 
you would most like to see manufactured that are presently unavailable or 
unacceptable (and why). Please indicate modeling scale as well. 

You might want to indicate if just "car sides" are acceptable, for use 
with a core kit such as those by Eastern Car Works. You may first want to 
check Union Station Products offerings (http://usp.dsop.com) as they 
offer more PRR sides than most know about!

Send your votes direct to me and I will tally them sometime the weekend 
following Christmas Day. (So make 12/25 your deadline for submission!)

Just to get things going, here are my submissions:

HO scale, sides acceptable:
PL85 - Baggage/Lounge/Bar (lightweight)
PS21 - "Inn" series 21 roomette, built by Budd, smooth side, fluted roof
? - 14 section (heavyweight) (used as dorm on 1954 Liberty Limited)

HO scale, painted and ready-to-run:
PS105 - "Eagle" blue/grey livery for joint MoPac service
PS106 - "Texas Special" red/silver livery for joint MKT service

"Other Needs" note:
It would be nice if Eastern Car Works did an older heavyweight core it 
that would be adaptable to the car sides concept that works so well for 
the later pre-war and post-war cars.

It's hard to limit to five, but luckily the "East Wind" never ran through 
the area I am modeling!!!

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:44:22 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] More Track Pan "Stuff"

In a message dated 98-12-18 06:49:03 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes:

<< I do remember references to steam boilers for train heat in electric 
 locomotives. However, I can't imagine that, for this purpose, more water 
 would be required between major stops (e.g.: NYC to Philly, Philly to  >>

I agree with Jerry on this one.  I never heard of an electric using
a track pan.  If you ran out of boiler water, you just shut it down
until the next major stop, where the fireman would "fill'er'up".
Train would usually be "heatless" for just a short while.

Rich Copeland

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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:48:09 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] BALDWIN 4-6-0


--------------4255ABBE8963E181F95DA975
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Howdy Bradley:

Welcome to the list - If it's the G scale  Bachmann engine, it resembles
locos built in the late 1880's till the turn of the century.   The PRR used
engines of this type with 63 inch drivers for freight service - they were
over-shadowed by the H class engines though.   The PRR started using the
Belpaire equiped ten-wheelers with the G3 class of 1892 built by Lines West
in Fort Wayne.  Your engine, follows the lines of a G33 to G37 class engines
built for the Grand Rapids and Indiana, who continue  to purchase engines
form sources other than Altoona.   It is too small for the G3, G4 or G5
class engines.

The nearest image to a PRR engine that I could point you to, is the 1503
cross compound engine built by Schenectady(later Alco).  It has the general
look of the Bachmann engine.

I think I read somewhere that the engine was based on standard Baldwin
practice of the late 1890's.   Check the reviews in past issues of Garden
Railroading, Model Railroader or Railroad Model Craftsman.

Good luck in your layout
Cos
wsbcos.com

Bradley Lamca wrote:

>  I am a recent entrant to railroading.  My late grandfather Thomas Lloyd
>
>  worked for the PRR in Altoona.  I just purchased a Bachmann Super Chief
>
>  set, and intend to model some locations around the Altoona area.
>  My Loco is a Baldwin 4-6-0, which I have found to be a G4 or G5.  I am
>  interested in modeling an early 1900's theme and need info on which
>  engine numbers of the 4-6-0 would have been used in travel through the
> Spruce
>  Creek Bridge and Tyrone.  I should note that at this time I know almost
>
>  nothing about the lines, trains, or much of anything else pertaining to
>
>  this topic.  I would like to know colors, color schemes, cars, etc.
>  Maybe there is an internet source with this info?
>  Thank you in advance,
>  Brad Lamca
>  Orlando, FL
>
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--------------4255ABBE8963E181F95DA975
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy Bradley:

<P>Welcome to the list - If it's the G scale&nbsp; Bachmann engine, it
resembles locos built in the late 1880's till the turn of the century.&nbsp;&nbsp;
The PRR used engines of this type with 63 inch drivers for freight service
- they were over-shadowed by the H class engines though.&nbsp;&nbsp; The
PRR started using the Belpaire equiped ten-wheelers with the G3 class of
1892 built by Lines West in Fort Wayne.&nbsp; Your engine, follows the
lines of a G33 to G37 class engines built for the Grand Rapids and Indiana,
who continue&nbsp; to purchase engines form sources other than Altoona.&nbsp;&nbsp;
It is too small for the G3, G4 or G5 class engines.

<P>The nearest image to a PRR engine that I could point you to, is the
1503 cross compound engine built by Schenectady(later Alco).&nbsp; It has
the general look of the Bachmann engine.

<P>I think I read somewhere that the engine was based on standard Baldwin
practice of the late 1890's.&nbsp;&nbsp; Check the reviews in past issues
of <I>Garden Railroading, Model Railroader </I>or <I>Railroad Model Craftsman.</I>

<P>Good luck in your layout
<BR>Cos
<BR>wsbcos.com

<P>Bradley Lamca wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;I am a recent entrant to railroading.&nbsp;
My late grandfather Thomas Lloyd

<P>&nbsp;worked for the PRR in Altoona.&nbsp; I just purchased a Bachmann
Super Chief

<P>&nbsp;set, and intend to model some locations around the Altoona area.
<BR>&nbsp;My Loco is a Baldwin 4-6-0, which I have found to be a G4 or
G5.&nbsp; I am
<BR>&nbsp;interested in modeling an early 1900's theme and need info on
which
<BR>&nbsp;engine numbers of the 4-6-0 would have been used in travel through
the
<BR>Spruce
<BR>&nbsp;Creek Bridge and Tyrone.&nbsp; I should note that at this time
I know almost

<P>&nbsp;nothing about the lines, trains, or much of anything else pertaining
to

<P>&nbsp;this topic.&nbsp; I would like to know colors, color schemes,
cars, etc.
<BR>&nbsp;Maybe there is an internet source with this info?
<BR>&nbsp;Thank you in advance,
<BR>&nbsp;Brad Lamca
<BR>&nbsp;Orlando, FL

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From: R2fcltnc@aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:21:33 EST
Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Survey

A high-quality R50b would be great
Bob

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Subject: Re: [PRR] SURVEY: Passenger Car Needs
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 98 10:39:52 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/19/98 12:21 AM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote:

>  Twin unit diners.
>
>  PS31L No.s 8120-8128 " Colonial" cars of 1938 (when is Bowser gonna
>    get in the Passenger car game ?)
>
>  Does anyone make the P85B (or P85BR)cars ? No.s 4100-4169 (PRR) or 
>    4068-4091 (ACF) 

If you're willing to build up using the Eastern Car Works core kits, 
Union Station Products makes sides for all of these. In HO, $14.99 per 
set. (Available through me/Merchandise Service.)

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
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From: Eichhorn@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:54:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] ID'ing a PRR Steam Bell

Hi Gang,

Many thanks to all who responded to my request. I didn't mean to throw anyone
off by my reference to it being a "steam" bell (just a "poor" assumption on my
part.)
With your "steerage" I was able to pretty much confirm that the bell, with a
99.9% degree of accuracy actually belonged to DD-1, # 9348.  The 1911 date and
#9348 engraved on the bell coincides exactly. Once pointed in the right
direction, I found some very good references in "Pennsy Electric Years" by
Volkmer.
Thanks again!

Regards,
George 

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Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:21:17 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: Re: [PRR] SURVEY: Passenger Car Needs

At 09:38 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I know this one has been anticipated, so here it is...the passenger car 
>survey!
>
>Please list up to FIVE classes of PRR passenger cars (inc. head end) that 
>you would most like to see manufactured that are presently unavailable or 
>unacceptable (and why). Please indicate modeling scale as well. 
>
>You might want to indicate if just "car sides" are acceptable, for use 
>with a core kit such as those by Eastern Car Works. You may first want to 
>check Union Station Products offerings (http://usp.dsop.com) as they 
>offer more PRR sides than most know about!
>
>Send your votes direct to me and I will tally them sometime the weekend 
>following Christmas Day. (So make 12/25 your deadline for submission!)

 Hi...

  Here are some of mine....ALL H.O.( Hmmmmm you might want to make up a M of W
    list...)( See below )
  

  1952 Congo cars (any including coffee shop diners)

  PRR Brill gas-electrics (Maybe even to fit Bachmann chassis)

  Parts to modify Bachmann P-70 ,PB-70,D-78 cars (for Bachmann cars only)
    mostly the P-70 though. Hey Bachmann...sell your trucks separate !
    ya hear ?

  Twin unit diners.

  Updated version of the R-50b (not brass)...life like or kadee type
    quality kit.

  PS31L No.s 8120-8128 " Colonial" cars of 1938 (when is Bowser gonna
    get in the Passenger car game ?)

  6-6 "poplar" heavyweight cars ...with round roof...not flat ended
  as used by PRR

  and last but not least....
  Does anyone make the P85B (or P85BR)cars ? No.s 4100-4169 (PRR) or 
    4068-4091 (ACF) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  I did'nt get a chance to vote for the freight car list....but
  
  plastic G-22 gons (cheaper than Westerfield)

  W-150 steam Derrick (does M of W apply here?)

  H-30 covered hoppers...like life like or kadee...etc.

  NDA 8-wheel cabins...like bowser.

  and....

  Tower cars....for mostly the lines east folks...(ok..you could use them in
   tunnels out west).
  

  

                                          Til Later Folks
                                          Hank M.


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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:01:05 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] ID'ing a PRR Steam Bell

In a message dated 98-12-18 19:30:48 EST, wsbcos@cris.com writes:

<< The best that I can tell from a quick check of roster information is:
 It may be a bell from a DD1.  

Quite logical, considering where the bell ended up.  The DD1's
all ran to/from to Sunnyside, and the last one or two stayed there
for years after the Manhattan Transfer electric/steam engine
change was eliminated.  At least one was stored in the shop
at Sunnyside into the Amtrak era.  May still be there...does
anyone know?

Rich Copeland

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:30:18 EST
Subject: [PRR] PCAR SURVEY

Jerry,
Always nice to have a wish list to fill out. Perhaps Branchlines will
eventually come through on some of this, but here goes:

-8 section lounge with A/C ala 1950's as used on Southland, Dominion, etc.

-8 section/5 double bedroom 1950's usable

-PC70 cafe coach

-REA 50 ft steel express reefer either riveted or welded

-Modernized D78 diner any subclass, which would be usable on many trains

I like to think that a car usable for more than Pennsy would be fairly
attractive to some company, so the sleepers and REA car would have real
potential. Perhaps a semi-streamlined diner would have a fighting chance, but
at any rate I can't off-hand recall any diners produced so far that are not
strictly pre-AC heavies (AHM-IHC, Bachman, or Walthers) or streamlined as
built (IHC, Con-Cor), at least in scale lenghth.
 By the way, Brass Car Sides also produces P85 sides.
Barry Peltier

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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 01:09:22 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] SUMMARY: Freight Car Survey

Jerry--

   	Make that one vote each for the H30. H30A & H32. There's a bunch of cement
kilns out here in Panhandle Land.

	Tom V

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From: Prr1187@aol.com
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 02:10:43 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR parlor car 7007 Lambs Club

I am searching for information on the 7007 Lambs Club parlor car.

It was recently purchased by the (ex-PRR) Dennison, OH Depot and Museum and
was moved to a siding there this past end of Oct or early Nov.  Previously,
from late 1991 till the recent move, it sat in the CSX yard in the "flats" of
Cleveland, OH and was owned by the Midwest Chapter of the National Railway
Historical Society.   The Midwest Chapter had acquired the car from an
individual, who (I believe) stored the car at the Conrail Collinwood yard
until forced to move it.  With no place to move it to,  he decided to donate
it to the Midwest Chapter.  The Midwest Chapter never did anything with it,
and had decided after 7 years that they didn't want it anymore and needed the
siding space so badly that they were ready to scrap it.  Fortunately I was
able to arrange the sale to preserve it. 
I am hopeful for its restoration.

Thanks, 
Dennis S.

 

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Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:50:38 -0800
From: Roger Elliott <relliott@mail.telis.org>
Subject: [PRR] Cool item on e-bay

One HO PRR S-2 steam turbine loco 6-8-6 made by ALCO.....
Item# 50078833

Roger Elliott


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Cool item on e-bay
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 18:49:17 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/20/98 5:50 PM, Roger Elliott (relliott@mail.telis.org) wrote:

>One HO PRR S-2 steam turbine loco 6-8-6 made by ALCO.....
>Item# 50078833

There is nothing wrong with promoting your own eBay listings on this 
list, where relevant, as this is, but please keep things ethical by 
indicating when you are the seller.

The subject "Cool item on e-Bay" is somewhat misleading. Thank you.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 19:48:42 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR parlor car 7007 Lambs Club


--------------DFE29DD5CEED89B7305457BE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy all and Dennis:

The most that I can find is:

>From lot number 6289, Plan 3992,  13 chair bar/14 seat lounge, ice cooled,  built
1929 - all for PRR service.
Engineers Club,  Friars Club,  Kiwanis Club,  Lambs Club,  Lawyers Club,
Professional Club and Rotary Club.

Lot number 6361 also of 1929 had 2 cars:  Mask and Wig Club and Poor Richard
Club.

Rebuilt 1940 to Plan 3992-G, 12 parlor/14 lounge.
Acquired by the PRR in 1951 and numbered 7007

They appear to have been used in New York to Phila. clockers and perhaps in the
Chicago pool too.

The cars loose their names in the early 60's and may be found listed by their
numbers in the Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment.   They are listed
through 1967.   In 1969 only the 7005 is listed.  I can't find it in any Penn
Central listing(I don't have that much on the PC)

I have no information on its disposition.

Cos
wsbcos.com


Prr1187@aol.com wrote:

> I am searching for information on the 7007 Lambs Club parlor car.
>



--------------DFE29DD5CEED89B7305457BE
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy all and Dennis:

<P>The most that I can find is:

<P>From lot number 6289, Plan 3992,&nbsp; 13 chair bar/14 seat lounge,
ice cooled,&nbsp; built 1929 - all for PRR service.
<BR>Engineers Club,&nbsp; Friars Club,&nbsp; Kiwanis Club,&nbsp; Lambs
Club,&nbsp; Lawyers Club,&nbsp; Professional Club and Rotary Club.

<P>Lot number 6361 also of 1929 had 2 cars:&nbsp; Mask and Wig Club and
Poor Richard Club.

<P>Rebuilt 1940 to Plan 3992-G, 12 parlor/14 lounge.
<BR>Acquired by the PRR in 1951 and numbered 7007

<P>They appear to have been used in New York to Phila. clockers and perhaps
in the Chicago pool too.

<P>The cars loose their names in the early 60's and may be found listed
by their numbers in the <I>Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment.&nbsp;</I>&nbsp;
They are listed through 1967.&nbsp;&nbsp; In 1969 only the 7005 is listed.&nbsp;
I can't find it in any Penn Central listing(I don't have that much on the
PC)

<P>I have no information on its disposition.

<P>Cos
<BR>wsbcos.com
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>Prr1187@aol.com wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I am searching for information on the 7007 Lambs
Club parlor car.
<BR>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------DFE29DD5CEED89B7305457BE--


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Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:29:19 -0500
Subject: [PRR] PRR Music
From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan)

This evening, I was listening to the local classical music station, which
was playing a group of pieces by an Irish orchestra featuring the Irish
flutist James Galway.  The music was inspired by the Irish immigration to
this country.  One of the pieces had the title "The Pennsylvania
Railroad."  As you would expect because it was 1) Irish, and 2) named The
Pennsylvania Railroad," it was very good.  :-)
Pat Egan

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 03:02:55 EST
Subject: [PRR] GE, GM, and Delco

Dear Chuck:
An addendum to Nicholas P. Nagrant's U25B article in the Winter 1998 Keystone:
Delco made the auxiliary electrical gear (e.g., auxiliary generators, traction
blower motors, fan hub motors) for sister GM division Electro-Motive.  All the
auxiliary circuits were an odd voltage (64 volts AC comes to memory).
Specifically, this apparatus was manufactured at Delco Products in Dayton
Ohio, where my father worked for 31 years, and I for two.  One of the safety
hazards in this factory was the department where EMD's radiator cooling fan
motors were pressed into their hubs, and these 48" cap top fans (later pan top
fans) were sitting on the floor.  It was the simplest thing possible to trip
over a fan blade...
 
But the diesel historians will not let us imply that EMD's 600 V. DC
"electrical transmission" gear was made by "the Delco," as Daytonians once
proudly called it.  In 1966 these "traction motors" and "traction generators"
were strictly made by EMD itself.  Actually, diesel technologists know that
the very earliest EMD/EMC products had electrical gear from GE, but
controlling and patenting the design and quality of these components was a
very high priority with EMD, and in-house manufacturing of main electrical
gear at LaGrange started early.  The one vestige that remained: it was said
that for years afterward a GE armature (the rotating part of a traction motor)
would still physically fit into an EMD traction motor.

Similar to EMD practice, GE's locomotive business built their traction
equipment in-plant at Erie; this work was never entrusted to GE's "Fort Wayne
Works" where other types of motors were made.  

We can safely assume that by the introduction of the U-boats, design of the
EMD and GE equipment had successfully diverged.  The advent of the U25B
brought a 16-notch throttle (EMD and Alco used 8) and a lower-maintenance
control circuitry, along with the Cooper-Bessemer engine and a dust-repelling
carbody pressurization.  While EMD still built the lion's share of units in
the 60's, the U-boat models were good enough railroad locomotives to win GE
entry to the market.  Then (1962 to 1968) PRR (among others) started giving
bigger orders to GE than to Alco.  In 1969, Alco stopped building locomotives.
Now thirty years later, GE's market share is #1.

Rick Tipton
PRR modeler and an alumnus of both GM and GE.

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Subject: [PRR] PRR Items Sought for Loan or Purchase
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 11:15:54 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Same song, fourth verse, but for the benefit of our growing subscriber 
base...

I am seeking the following, for loan (for scanning) or purchase, to 
assist in my essay "24 Hours at Harrisburg" 
(http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html). If you have any of 
these, and would be willing to loan them or are interested in selling 
them, please contact me!

* Makeup of Trains, Maryland Division, issued September 26, 1954.

This docoment WOULD PROVIDE more precise consist information, including 
head-end equipment and, in some cases, exact car names, for trains 
originating in Washington, D.C.

* Makeup of Trains, Philadelphia Division, issued September 26, 1954.

This docoment WOULD PROVIDE more precise consist information, including 
head-end equipment and, in some cases, exact car names, for trains 
originating in Philadelphia or Harrisburg.

* Employee Timetable No. 7 - Philadelphia Division, issued September 26, 
1954.

This document WOULD PROVIDE passage times of freight trains on the "main 
line" synched with the passenger schedules already included. It would 
also add TrucTrain service, which was introduced in June, 1954 and 
included symbols LCL-1, LCL-2, and LCL-7.

* Any other Employee Timetables with an issue date of September 26, 1954, 
except the Maryland Division or the Philadelphia Terminal Division, which 
I already have.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: [PRR] GS 40' Gondolas
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 10:59:30 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

For stocking purposes, please help me determine era popularity...

Bowser offers their new GS 40' gondola in the following liveries:

     "PENNSYLVANIA"
     "Circle Keystone"
     "Shadow Keystone"

The latter two are comparable to Red Caboose's X29 offerings. I know the 
"Shadow Keystone" showed up around 1950ish and the "Circle Keystone" was 
prior.

Was the plain "PENNSYLVANIA" prior to "Circle Keystone" or even after 
"Shadow Keystone"?

Most of my customers model 1940s-1950s. What will they want?

BTW: Have F30a 50' flat cars in stock, in 12 numbers. (There is only one 
variety here, so it was an easy choice!)

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: Re: [PRR] GS 40' Gondolas 
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:37:30 -0500
From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

On 21 Dec, Jerry wrote:

> Bowser offers their new GS 40' gondola in the following liveries:
> 
>      "PENNSYLVANIA"
>      "Circle Keystone"
>      "Shadow Keystone"
> 
> The latter two are comparable to Red Caboose's X29 offerings. I know the 
> "Shadow Keystone" showed up around 1950ish and the "Circle Keystone" was 
> prior.

> Most of my customers model 1940s-1950s. What will they want?

Circle Keystone was replaced by Shadow Keystone *starting*
in (February?) 1954.  Of course, PRR didn't repaint its cars
very quickly, so there was CK rolling stock throughout the
1950s.  Earlier paint schemes looked just like CK without
the CK.

Dennis Rockwell     SPF(N)    dennis@bbn.com      Cambridge MA
             _______  _______  _______  _______  _______  _______
####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)#####

I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning!


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Subject: [PRR] Schemes Web Page
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 13:51:25 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I'm going to take all of this paint scheme information and work up a web 
page that will be accessible on Keystone Crossings via both the Freight 
Ops page and the Modeling page.

Please send me your comments. Thanks.

Here's what we have so far, with my questions in [brackets]:
------------
Over the life of the PRR, the following "basic" paint schemes were used 
on freight equipment. Please note that "Merchandise Service" and "Railway 
Express Agency" is not addressed here. Remember that the dates are date 
of painting; a unit could wear any given scheme indefinitely.

NK1 -- [ ?? - Rick Tiption starts with NK3 (no keystone 3) so there must 
be a 1 and 2]

NK2 -- [ ?? ]

NK3 -- No Keystone, scheme 3 -- appeared 1906-1926. It featured the word 
PENNSYLVANIA for Lines East or PENNSYLVANIA LINES for Lines West.

NK4 -- No Keystone, scheme 4 -- appeared 1926-1930. Was basically the 
same as CK, except without the Circle Keystone logo.

CK -- Circle Keystone -- 1930-1954. For most modelers, this is probably 
the scheme that would appear most. Either as a fresh paint job or as an 
older, weathered unit.

SK -- Shadow Keystone -- Feb. 1954-[???]. [Rick also refers to a SK1b. So 
what is the makes it a "b" and what was "a"?]

PK -- Plain Keystone -- [???-???]. Shadow keystone minus the shadow, to 
save cost of painting a second color.

Block -- [???-???]. Just prior to the merger, only PRR was painted...no 
logo. RR could be repainted soon thereafter with C to make PC.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Schemes Web Page
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 14:28:30 -0500



SK -- Shadow Keystone -- Feb. 1954-[???]. [Rick also refers to a SK1b. So 
what is the makes it a "b" and what was "a"?]

======
I believe that one of these was the "Calendar" font used only on a few X29Bs. 
These were the same cars that carried the "Don't stand me still" slogan.  Not
many cars had this scheme.

When you get to special schemes, dont forget the GATX box car  in Forest Greeen
with a "Coast Guard" stripe!


regards

Andy Miller


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Subject: Re: [PRR] GS 40' Gondolas
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 13:26:50 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Rick sent this response only to me, but it is truly worthy of going to 
the list and subsequently into the list archive. Thank you, Rick!

On 12/21/98 12:47 PM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote:

>> Bowser offers their new GS 40' gondola in the following liveries:
>>  
>>       "PENNSYLVANIA"
>>       "Circle Keystone"
>>       "Shadow Keystone"
>>  
>Let me go out on a limb with you on era (in other words, this is preliminary
>info):
>From Bowser's website, the PENNSYLVANIA appears to represent the NK3 paint
>scheme of 1906-1926.  This is early for most modelers, but of course this
>lettering would have been seen much later than its years of application.
>Determined Lines West modelers can wipe the PENNSYLVANIA on this and replace
>it with PENNSYLVANIA LINES (used until 1920?).
>
>The circle keystone (CK) scheme was used 1930-1954.  I'd expect most modelers
>to use some cars in this scheme.  Remove the monogram to get prior scheme NK4
>(painted 1926-1930).
>
>The shadow keystone scheme Bowser has done is SK1b.  This scheme was a good
>choice for Bowser, as it is the one "diesel" scheme surviving GS's were most
>likely to wear.
>
>My operators and I have had some lovely debates about the frequency of car
>repainting.  I'm left with the conclusion that a gondola's life was the worst
>of all cars, especially at the hands of scrap dealers.  Therefore gons were
>repainted a lot, and you should see a whole spectrum of schemes on one car
>class.


------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: Re: [PRR] GS 40' Gondolas
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 13:12:28 -0500

Jerry,

Circle Keystone first appeared during the mid 1930s.  Shadow keystone was
introduced in 1954.  "Plain Pennsylvania" could be several things.  We would
have to look at the actual car to tell what era Bowser has modeled.  Prior to
Circle Keystone, the PRR used a plain scheme similar to "Circle Keystone" but
with no herald at all.  Bowser has offered their H-21s in this scheme.  Its
correct for the 1910-1935 era.  But there is also the "plain keystone" scheme
used  in which the shadow on the large keystone was dropped.  The extra color
cost too much.  Bowser has offered their H-21s in this scheme as well. There
finally is a plain "PRR" scheme used in the last dying days of the PRR (RIP)
when painting any kind of keystone was considered extravagant, and the hand
writing was in the wall (and on the letter of intent) signaling the forthcoming
repainting to PC.

regards,

Andy Miller
===============

For stocking purposes, please help me determine era popularity...

Bowser offers their new GS 40' gondola in the following liveries:

     "PENNSYLVANIA"
     "Circle Keystone"
     "Shadow Keystone"

The latter two are comparable to Red Caboose's X29 offerings. I know the 
"Shadow Keystone" showed up around 1950ish and the "Circle Keystone" was 
prior.

Was the plain "PENNSYLVANIA" prior to "Circle Keystone" or even after 
"Shadow Keystone"?

Most of my customers model 1940s-1950s. What will they want?

BTW: Have F30a 50' flat cars in stock, in 12 numbers. (There is only one 
variety here, so it was an easy choice!)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Schemes Web Page
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 15:43:55 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/21/98 2:28 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote:

>I believe that one of these was the "Calendar" font used only on a few 
>X29Bs. 
>These were the same cars that carried the "Don't stand me still" slogan.  Not
>many cars had this scheme.

Are you saying that the subset of cars that featured the Calendar numbers 
and the subset that read "Don't Stand Me Still" were one and the same? In 
other words, could you find one without the other, and vice versa?
>
>When you get to special schemes, dont forget the GATX box car  in Forest 
>Greeen
>with a "Coast Guard" stripe!

Tell me more -- this is a new one to me!


------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: [PRR] Freight Schemes Page Now Online
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 15:29:15 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

The first iteration of my Freight Schemes page is now online at
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/schemes.html

Where possible, I have linked to photos of HO scale models which 
demonstrate the scheme in question. There are lots of Bowser examples. I 
will photograph my own Red Caboose models (since photos are not available 
online) and add them later.

I welcome your feedback, corrections, additions, etc. Thanks.

The second half of this page will be "themes" -- other paint variations 
that were tied to a theme but not necessarily to a scheme. 

For instance:
     Merchandise Service
     Railway Express Agency
     Buy War Bonds    <--was this only on CK cars during WWII?
     Don't Stand Me Still
     Automobiles

Can anyone provide significant content on any of the above? 
When were they started; ended? 
What types of cars were they applied/limited to?

Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Schemes Web Page 
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:06:37 -0500
From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

On 21 Dec, Jerry wrote:

> I'm going to take all of this paint scheme information and work up a web 
> page that will be accessible on Keystone Crossings via both the Freight 
> Ops page and the Modeling page.
> 
> Please send me your comments. Thanks.

Note that all this info (and I think the NK, CK, SK
nomenclature) is in Brady McGuire freight car lettering
article in The Keystone, Volume 22, Issue 2, Summer 1988.

> SK -- Shadow Keystone -- Feb. 1954-[???]. [Rick also refers to a SK1b. So 
> what is the makes it a "b" and what was "a"?]

IIRC, SK1a is what some call "calendar" numbers (like on the
factory-painted PS-1 boxcars, with fancy ascenders and
descenders), and SK1b is what we consider normal SK
lettering.

Dennis

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Subject: Re: [PRR] Schemes Web Page
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 16:22:54 -0500

Jerry,

I'm not sure if there was a one-to-one correspondence between DSMS and
Calendar.  The now-famous Keystone article on PRR box car paint schemes would
have all the info.  As I recall , its back cover also has a picture of the GATX
box car.  It was a series of cars designed to promulgate a particular
damage-free hardware.  The cars were owned (or leased) by the PRR but built to
GATX design.  


regards,

Andy
==================
On 12/21/98 2:28 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote:

>I believe that one of these was the "Calendar" font used only on a few 
>X29Bs. 
>These were the same cars that carried the "Don't stand me still" slogan.  Not
>many cars had this scheme.

Are you saying that the subset of cars that featured the Calendar numbers 
and the subset that read "Don't Stand Me Still" were one and the same? In 
other words, could you find one without the other, and vice versa?
>
>When you get to special schemes, dont forget the GATX box car  in Forest 
>Greeen
>with a "Coast Guard" stripe!

Tell me more -- this is a new one to me!


- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!



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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:17:01 -0500
From: Brian Brooks <steelfan@ohio.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Schemes Web Page

At 02:28 PM 12/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>SK -- Shadow Keystone -- Feb. 1954-[???]. [Rick also refers to a SK1b. So 
>what is the makes it a "b" and what was "a"?]
>
>======
>I believe that one of these was the "Calendar" font used only on a few X29Bs. 
>These were the same cars that carried the "Don't stand me still" slogan.  Not
>many cars had this scheme.
>
The "calendar" numeral font was used for only a few months after the
introduction of the SK (I believe February to August 1954).  The X48 and H34
received this treatment when built.  I believe the "Don't Stand Me Still"
slogan was applied to X29Ds in 1955, after the calendar numbers were
dropped.  However, the "Color Guide Volume 2" has a nice photo of an X29B
wearing this "SK1a" livery with a reweigh date of 6/54.

Brian Brooks


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:15:54 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Schemes Page Now Online

Jerry:

To the special schemes you can add the "Coal goes to War" slogan used on
hoppers during WWII.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:59:43 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] GS 40' Gondolas

In a message dated 12/21/98 11:09:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

> 
>  The latter two are comparable to Red Caboose's X29 offerings. I know the 
>  "Shadow Keystone" showed up around 1950ish and the "Circle Keystone" was 
>  prior.
>  
>  Was the plain "PENNSYLVANIA" prior to "Circle Keystone" or even after 
>  "Shadow Keystone"?
>  
The shadow Keystone was first seen in Feb., 1954.  The plain PENNSYLVANIA
precedes the Circle Keystone.  It was used from the turn of the century until
the late 20's.

Rich Orr

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:31:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Schemes Web Page

>  SK -- Shadow Keystone -- Feb. 1954-[???]. [Rick also refers to a SK1b. So 
>  what is the makes it a "b" and what was "a"?]

I saw a list somewhere. I seem to recall there was also SK2a at least....
I know one of the C&BT box cars has an SK2 scheme of some variant.

-D


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Schemes Page Now Online
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 16:25:42 -0500

Jerry,

In the same vein as "Buy War Bonds" was the hopper car slogan "Coal goes to
war".  I guess it was a vein of coal;-)

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:13:11 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Schemes Web Page

In a message dated 12/21/98 2:03:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

Jerry:

I have filled in the missing information in CAPS.
> NK1 -- [ ?? - Rick Tiption starts with NK3 (no keystone 3) so there must 
>  be a 1 and 2]

NK-1 1876-1898    P.R.R.  WITH PERIODS
>  
>  NK2 -- [ ?? ]
>  NK-2 1898-1906  P.R.R.  and PENNSYLVANIA    PENNSYLVANIA IS UNDERLINED

>  NK3 -- No Keystone, scheme 3 -- appeared 1906-1926. It featured the word 
>  PENNSYLVANIA for Lines East or PENNSYLVANIA LINES for Lines West.

>  USED   4/1906 - 4/1926  PENNSYLVANIA HAS A DOUBLE UNDERLINE

>  NK4 -- No Keystone, scheme 4 -- appeared 1926-1930. Was basically the 
>  same as CK, except without the Circle Keystone logo.
>  
USED 4/1926 - 1/1930  THE NUMBER IS UNDERLINED PENNSYLVANIA IS NOT

>  CK -- Circle Keystone -- 1930-1954. For most modelers, this is probably 
>  the scheme that would appear most. Either as a fresh paint job or as an 
>  older, weathered unit.
>  
>  SK -- Shadow Keystone -- Feb. 1954-[???]. [Rick also refers to a SK1b. So 
>  what is the makes it a "b" and what was "a"?]
>  


SK1a  SHADOW KEYSTONE WITH SCRIPT NUMERALS  2/54 - 6/54 ONLY APPEARED ON ALL
20 X48 CARS AND SOME X29B, X38 AND X43B CARS

SK1b  SHADOW KEYSTONE SERIF STYLE NUMERALS 8/54-11/57

SK2a SHADOW KEYSTONE 11/57-6/60  SERIF STYLE NUMERALS AND PRR

SK2b SHADOW KEYSTONE 6/60 - 6/61 PLAIN STYLE PRR & NUMERALS

>  PK -- Plain Keystone -- [???-???]. Shadow keystone minus the shadow, to 
>  save cost of painting a second color.
>  
>  Block -- [???-???]. Just prior to the merger, only PRR was painted...no 
>  logo. RR could be repainted soon thereafter with C to make PC.
>  
THIS WAS DONE TO LOCOMOTIVES BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY FREIGHT CARS WERE
OFFICIALLY PAINTED THIS WAY

Rich Orr

source  Barry McGuire's article in the Keystone Vol 21. No 2

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From: Ljgurke@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:20:20 EST
Subject: [PRR] Modeling X-40B Boxcar in HO Scale?

Anyone have ideas for modeling the 60' X-40B in HO, i.e., a "close enough"
kitbash splicing together other plastic kits (other than a scratchbuild).
Seems like Walthers makes decals for this car (aluminum/white/red Merchandise
Service #934-77110) but what about a car to put these on?

Thanks and Happy Holidays!

  

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:16:01 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: [MEMRA] GE, GM, and Delco

In a message dated 12/21/98 8:23:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
staffsgtyork@juno.com writes:

> 
>  Yes, but........Alco has made a come back bid, anounced in Railfan and
>  Railroad, and I believe Trains a couple of issues ago.  FM I believe has
>  something to do with it using submarine engines (?).
>  
>  SGT York

SGT Dave,
Yes, I read that too.  I think this means very little to the railroad
locomotive market (and I had deliberately used the word LOCOMOTIVE).  Hope
someone who is current in the "diesel engine" market will comment, but I
interpreted this as:

1. Somebody new will vend parts for Alco's Mackintosh & Seymour engine design,
and the same firm will vend parts for the opposed-piston design that FM first
used in W.W.II submarines, and then in postwar railroad locomotives.  This is
incidentally good news for the remaining owners of a few Alco/MLW locomotives,
but is much better news for the other nonrail applications (like towboats)
where new M&S and OP engines continued to be sold for many years after exit
from the loco market.  

BTW, EMD 567/645 engines were/are also big players on towboats.  When towboats
go by Louisville on the Ohio River, railfans listen to see whether the power
is "EMD", "Alco", or ?.  IIRC, none of the EMD towboats use superchargers, so
the sound is like a GP-38. 

2. From the announcement, sounds like the firm will also be a new player in
rebuilding engines.  Good news for the same suspects -- marine, peak-load
power plants, emergency generators at hospitals etc.

But I expect this involves only the same old designs -- not new power plants
that could be competitive in the new locomotive market.  Sorry if this is
disappointing.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West

PS It's a shame that none of PRR's FM locomotives were saved.  Back in the
early 70s, I saw a B-unit from one of the Pennsy's Erie-built sets in
Columbus.  It was painted in a solid blue scheme and was being used as the
power car for some kind of (contractor?) work train, but was unmistakable with
those huge screens for the "submarine" radiators in the side of the carbody.

Still, I'd love to see an H10-44 in a museum.  These were the Pennsy around
Dayton and Xenia where I grew up.

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Subject: Re: [PRR] Schemes Web Page 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:34:12 -0500
From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

On 21 Dec, Derrick J Brashear wrote:

> [ ... ] I seem to recall there was also SK2a at least....
> I know one of the C&BT box cars has an SK2 scheme of some variant.

The SK2 scheme was after the FRA (AAR?) got after the Pennsy
to put their reporting marks on the side of the car; this
resulted in the "PRR" under "PENNSYLVANIA" on boxcars.
Looks pretty dumb, but lots of the SK models are SK2a; a
quick look at Jerry's Scheme page shows one SK2a and the
rest SK1b on the Bowser boxes.

Dennis

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Subject: [PRR] Freight Paint Schemes - Summary
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 08:19:11 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Thanks to all, especially Rick Tipton, who responded to my "simple" query 
about freight paint schemes yesterday.

The response produced one of the best and most productive threads we have 
had in some time...resulting in the creation of a Freight Paint Schemes 
web page on Keystone Crossings that I am sure will be one of its most 
popular pages.
     See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/schemes.html

This page will continue to evolve, and I will add more examples as 
possible.

Also, Rick is working on an article for "The Keystone" which chronicles 
the application of these paint schemes to hopper cars. Watch for it!

Thanks again to all!

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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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Subject: [PRR] Freight Car schemes
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 10:00:15 -0500

Dennis wrote (in part),

The SK2 scheme was after the FRA (AAR?) got after the Pennsy
to put their reporting marks on the side of the car; this
resulted in the "PRR" under "PENNSYLVANIA" on boxcars.
========

I always wondered where the PRR got the arrogance to put their entire (long)
name on freight cars and assume that everyone KNEW the reporting mark should be
"PRR"!   Of course, they were right ;-)

regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose tid bits
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:51:27 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I've been having an on-going discussion with the folks at Red Caboose and 
I'd like to share a few tid bits for you.

First, the X-29's in "REA" theme that were released last June were a run 
of 1200. They sold out immediately. No if's, and's, or but's. They were 
gone overnight. They re-ran these about two months ago. This second run 
was a run of only 600 cars. RC tells me that they have less than 200 
left. A third run is not planned as of yet. So, whether you buy from your 
local dealer, favorite mail order vendor, or Merchandise Service, you 
ought to think about doing it soon. I know I still have nearly two dozen 
cars in stock, but -- knowing this information -- I am going to try to 
order a few more while I can.

Second, the X-29's in "Merchandise Service" theme will ship in late 
January or early February. There are some production (printing) issues 
which will significantly reduce the profit margin for Red Caboose. You 
can read into this that if they don't make enough money with the first 
run, there won't be a second. The first run is expected to be 1500 cars. 
Again, place your orders (somewhere) if you want to be sure to get them. 
I will be placing my dealer order with RC this evening and am accepting 
advance reservations from customers.

X-29's in "Circle Keystone", "Shadow Keystone" (some with calendar 
numbers), and "Buy War Bonds" continue to be available without problem.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:03:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: [PRR] modeling towers

Anyone given any thought to modeling any of the three stone (castle-esque)
towers from the slopes? It's an idea that's kind of been lurking in the back of
my head; I'm not a very good scratchbuilder when it comes to structures, but
these would be niche, so I wouldn't expect a kit... but if I thought I could do
something useful and someone wanted to use it as a master that'd be a
possibility, at least.

-D




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Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose tid bits 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:54:55 -0500
From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

On 22 Dec, Jerry wrote:

> Second, the X-29's in "Merchandise Service" theme will ship in late 
> January or early February. There are some production (printing) issues 
> which will significantly reduce the profit margin for Red Caboose.

I would guess that the broad white stripe, with tiny detail
gaps, over a dark color is a pain in the butt for several
manufacturers.  On the Atlas N Scale PS-1 (yeah, well :-)
that they painted in M/S, the portion of the circle around
the keystone that's above or below the white stripe is
noticeably fainter.  The MicroScale decals that I used on my
Fine N Scale X29 models doesn't cover perfectly, either, and
when doubling them up, it is a serious pain to get them to
line up just right (you can guess how I know this :-).

Dennis

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Subject: [PRR] Freight Scheme Page Update / Solicitation For More Info
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 11:52:49 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I've re-engineered the Freight Schemes page (already) based on feedback 
from "those in the know".
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/schemes.html

The SK scheme has been broken out as four schemes: SK1a, SK1b, SK2a, and 
SK2b.

The PK scheme and the Block scheme have been identified as one and the 
same.

Links to sample models have been moved as necessary to satisfy the above 
changes.

Would "those in the know" please take a look and notify me of an errors?

Also, on the same page, I've started the "themes" section (e.g. "Don't 
Stand Me Still", "Coal Goes To War", "Buy War Bonds", etc.).

If anyone can provide info as to during what periods these were painted, 
on top of what scheme they were applied, and on what equipment, it would 
be appreciated. Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 14:48:36 CST
Subject: [PRR] New Mark I video...

Hi, all,

I just received the new Mark I video MEMORIES OF THE PRR, V. 2.  It's a 
real keeper!  It's mostly Horseshoe in color, much of it shot BEFORE the 
Kittaning Point station was torn down!!  You can see the semphores just 
west of the station, including the set turned at an angle for the downgrade 
trains.  The image quality is very good and many of the steamers are clean 
and in pre-modernization mode -- slated pilot, traditional headlight, etc.  
Other areas shown are tunnels on the east side of Gallitzen, the west side 
(tunnel mouths) and AR tower.  The last part of the video is all on the 
Middle Div (no specific locations shown).  Among my favorite parts - two 
occasions of pushers being dropped on the fly, a Q2 on Horseshoe, an I1 on 
a passenger train, a New Haven caboose on an express, a heavyweight sleeper 
in the FOM paint scheme, and a mail drop at Gallitzen.  One other neat 
item - on some westbounds, the sweat line on the tenders is at an angle, 
showing how steep the grade is on the east slope.  There are also some good 
views of first generation diesels.  My only disappointment - there were 
only a few brief views of T1's, but then the earlier Mark I effort shows 
many of these engines out of St. Louis.  I purchased vol. II of this one, 
but if vol. 1 (showing PRR east of Harrisburg) is as good, these are worth 
the money.

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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Subject: [PRR] Interchange Traffic in 1954
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 15:38:02 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Outside of the PRR, I am ignorant of the genealogical lineage of other 
roads, not knowing what existed when, merged with whom when, etc.

I'd like to know what roads I can/should include in my consists, 
considering that I am modeling 1954.

I am sure of these roads:
     New York Central
     Reading
     Central of New Jersey
     Maryland & Pennsylvania
     Baltimore & Ohio

What about these roads (based on available models):
     Delaware & Hudson (D&H)
     Lehigh & New England (LNE)
     Seaboard Air Line (SAL)
     Pittsburgh & Lake Erie
     Norfolk & Western
     Detroit Toledo & Ironton (DT&I)
     Virginian
     Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O)
     Great Northern
     Monon
     Atlantic Coast Line (ACL)
     Nickel Plate Road (NKP)
     Wabash
     D&RGW
     Pere Marquette
     MKT
     Clinchfield
     Western Maryland
     Boston & Maine
     Erie Lacakawana
     Maine Central
     Erie
     Chicago Great Western

Any others come to mind? Feel free to comment on car types and relative 
frequency.

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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Subject: Re: [PRR] New Mark I video...
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 14:03:15 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/22/98 3:48 PM, George Pierson (George.Pierson@trnty.edu) wrote:

>I just received the new Mark I video MEMORIES OF THE PRR, V. 2.  It's a 
>real keeper!  It's mostly Horseshoe in color, much of it shot BEFORE the 
>Kittaning Point station was torn down!!  You can see the semphores just 
>west of the station, 

And this is in color? Did Ted Turner get a hold of it and colorize it, or 
what? Guess I would have placed semaphores and Kittaning Point station 
BEFORE the development of color movies.

> I purchased vol. II of this one, 
>but if vol. 1 (showing PRR east of Harrisburg) is as good, these are worth 
>the money.

Does "PRR east of Harrisburg" include Harrisburg? Does anyone have this 
video? May be just what I am looking for -- passenger operations AT 
Harrisburg circa 1954.


------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
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Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose tid bits 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 14:18:32 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/22/98 1:54 PM, Dennis Rockwell (dennis@bbn.com) wrote:

>I would guess that the broad white stripe, with tiny detail
>gaps, over a dark color is a pain in the butt for several
>manufacturers.

They tell me it's not so much the dark color they are painting over, but 
maintaining consistent color over such a large area, including non-flat 
areas such as the door and the trim near the end of the cars. They 
haven't had to deal with that with "normal" lettering schemes.

They are insistent that it will be done, by late January/early February, 
even if they have to mask by hand!

THAT oughtta tell you the seriousness of the situation. If they find that 
they have to manually mask, you can bet that there won't be a second run. 
They can't afford to manually mask and then wholesale to dealers while 
maintaining a retail price point of $14.95 (which according to the 
Walthers catalog is guaranteed not to increase during 1999).

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Subject: Re: [PRR] modeling towers
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 15:22:09 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/22/98 2:03 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote:

>Anyone given any thought to modeling any of the three stone (castle-esque)
>towers from the slopes? It's an idea that's kind of been lurking in the 
>back of
>my head; I'm not a very good scratchbuilder when it comes to structures, but
>these would be niche, so I wouldn't expect a kit... but if I thought I 
>could do
>something useful and someone wanted to use it as a master that'd be a
>possibility, at least.

Derrick: 

I've only ever seen photos of the one just west of MG (near Benny). 
Forget its name.

I would think that the market for such a tower would be slim, even though 
they were so unique! Problem is -- when were they taken out of service 
and when were they razed?

Most model 1945 or later. If I recall, the one I mentioned above was 
razed in order to make room for the fourth track. That was very early on. 
For many modelers, these towers are gone before the era modeled.

They are neat, however, that even a hardened rivet counter might allow 
one to survive a bit longer!

As for scratchbuilding, I would first check with stores that sell AD&D 
(Dungeons & Dragons) game stuff. Perhaps they'd have a small "Keep" that 
would fare close.

There's also a guy that builds phenomenal towers and sells them each year 
at the PRRT&HS convention. Don't know if he's ever done one of the stone 
ones. Would be expensive; his models run $150 and up. I think I'm going 
to have him do HARRIS for me.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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From: "Andrew Harmantas" <frisco484@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Traffic in 1954
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:56:11 PST

>Any others come to mind? Feel free to comment on car types and relative 
>frequency.
>______________________
I recall seeing several fifty foot single-door Illinois Central box cars 
on almost every general freight train on the Middle Division in the mid 
to late 1950's.  And running out of Washington, D.C., too.

Andrew Harmantas, SPF


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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:00:11 -0500
From: Drew McGhee <drm6@psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Traffic in 1954

Greetings to Jerry and the group,

Check out the current, January 1999 issue of _Trains_. (Mike B: Thanks for
the tip on the January issue.) There's a farewell article on Conrail. The
issue also has the lineage of several present day roads with merger dates.
This should be of some help.

Drew R. McGhee
Altoona, PA

At 03:38 PM 12/22/98 -0500, Jerry wrote:
>Outside of the PRR, I am ignorant of the genealogical lineage of other 
>roads, not knowing what existed when, merged with whom when, etc.
>
>I'd like to know what roads I can/should include in my consists, 
>considering that I am modeling 1954.

Lots of stuff deleted.


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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 18:59:04 CST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Mark I video...

Hi, all,

>And this is in color? Did Ted Turner get a hold of it and colorize it, or 
>what? Guess I would have placed semaphores and Kittaning Point station 
>BEFORE the development of color movies.

Yes, it's real color.  If memory serves me right, you could see the station 
and semaphores until about 1942.  Whoever shot this stuff had some of the 
earliest commercially available color movie film.
>
>> I purchased vol. II of this one, 
>>but if vol. 1 (showing PRR east of Harrisburg) is as good, these are worth 
>>the money.
>
>Does "PRR east of Harrisburg" include Harrisburg? 

Don't know.

>May be just what I am looking for -- passenger operations AT 
>Harrisburg circa 1954.

Check out Mark I's ads in the various fan magazines for the description - 
but oddly enough, although I own a number of PRR videos, I've rarely seen 
Harrisburg.  I think one of the early PRR offerings from Railroad Video (??
), the folks who put out all those cab rides tapes, has a few quick scenes 
around HBG in steam, but I'll have to check.  I don't believe any of them 
showed the station and they appear to have been shot in the late '40's.

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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Subject: [PRR] fwd: Millstone Branch?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:21:13 -0500
From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

Forwarded from misc.transport.rail.americas:

------- Forwarded Message

From: NIGHTHAWK COMMS <contact@nighthawk.nu>
Newsgroups: misc.transport.rail.americas
Subject: PRR INFO NEEDED!!!!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:32:53 -0500

Does anyone know where I can find info on the PRR's Millstone Brach? I
had a huge site site pictures built about it and the damn server caught
fire. Problem is I don't remember who gave me the good info.
This line leaves the NEC 5 miles south of New Brunswick, NJ (NJT's
Jersey Ave station is at the begining) and continued all the way to E
Millstone. CR just replaced all the ties on what is left of the
once-busy branch. Some idiot build his back yard right over the
abandoned section.
Any help would be appriciated!!!


------- End of Forwarded Message


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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 19:09:37 CST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Traffic in 1954

Hi, all,

>I'd like to know what roads I can/should include in my consists, 
>considering that I am modeling 1954.
>
>I am sure of these roads:
>     New York Central
>     Reading
>     Central of New Jersey
>     Maryland & Pennsylvania
>     Baltimore & Ohio
>
>What about these roads (based on available models):
>     Delaware & Hudson (D&H)
>     Lehigh & New England (LNE)
>     Seaboard Air Line (SAL)
>     Pittsburgh & Lake Erie
>     Norfolk & Western
>     Detroit Toledo & Ironton (DT&I)
>     Virginian
>     Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O)
>     Great Northern
>     Monon
>     Atlantic Coast Line (ACL)
>     Nickel Plate Road (NKP)
>     Wabash
>     D&RGW
>     Pere Marquette
>     MKT
>     Clinchfield
>     Western Maryland
>     Boston & Maine
>     Erie Lacakawana

If it's 1954, you will need the Erie and the Deleware, Lackawanna & Western.

>     Maine Central
>     Erie
>     Chicago Great Western
>
>Any others come to mind? Feel free to comment on car types and relative 
>frequency.

Good list!  Remember, anything that connected with the PRR in Chicago, St. 
Louis, or Cincinnati (just to name three) is fair game.

So, for example,

C&NW, Detroit & Mackinac, NYO&W, MoPac, T&P, Cotton Belt-
SP, AT&SF, New Haven, RF&P, Ma&Pa, Akron, Canton & Youngstown, South 
Buffalo, Raritan River, Huntingdon & Broad Top, Pittsburgh & Shawmut, 
Burlington, Milwaukee Road, etc.

And don't forget co. owned coal hoppers - Berwind White, Cambria & Indiana

And Canadian roads - GT, GTW, CN, CP

Sincerely,

George N. Pierson, Ph.D.   george.pierson@trnty.edu
Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College

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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 18:22:22 -0500
From: John W Rosenbauer <jlrosennospam@wpa.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Mark I video...



George Pierson wrote:

> Hi, all,
>
>
> Yes, it's real color.  If memory serves me right, you could see the station
> and semaphores until about 1942.  Whoever shot this stuff had some of the
> earliest commercially available color movie film.

Kodachrome, 1935. There was another color process earlier but KR was first real
success.

Have fun,

J.W.Rosenbauer


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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:20:41 EST
Subject: [PRR] Why is Conrail Demolishing Historic Structures NOW?

What is up with Conrail?  First the PRR towers near Altoona, and now the Erie
Meadville coaling tower comes down.  It seems as if Conrail is trying to
remove every historic structure along their right of way.

I believe that somewhere along the line, NS has decided that they wanted to
get rid of these structures along their new mainlines, and directed Conrail to
do the dirty deeds during its final days so NS won't receive any negative
publicity.  I'm just waiting to see how long the Girard, OH PRR coaling tower
will remain.  I don't give it much time before good old Sherman continues his
march to the sea.

Merry Christmas, NS style.

Rick

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From: Sean121982@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:39:40 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Why is Conrail Demolishing Historic Structures NOW?

rick,

i couldnt agree with you more. but i think the real reason that NS is making
CR demolish towers of all sorts is to avoid paying the property taxes when
they finally assume control of CR. NS is known as a no-nonsense operation, and
i can see them doing everything possible to cut costs.

sean mcdonnell

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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:40:34 -0500
From: Chris Brandt <cobrandt@eclipse.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] fwd: Millstone Branch?[long]



> Forwarded from misc.transport.rail.americas:
>
> ------- Forwarded Message
>
> From: NIGHTHAWK COMMS <contact@nighthawk.nu>
> Newsgroups: misc.transport.rail.americas
> Subject: PRR INFO NEEDED!!!!
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:32:53 -0500
>
> Does anyone know where I can find info on the PRR's Millstone Brach? I
> had a huge site site pictures built about it and the damn server caught
> fire. Problem is I don't remember who gave me the good info.
> This line leaves the NEC 5 miles south of New Brunswick, NJ (NJT's
> Jersey Ave station is at the begining) and continued all the way to E
> Millstone. CR just replaced all the ties on what is left of the
> once-busy branch. Some idiot build his back yard right over the
> abandoned section.
> Any help would be appriciated!!!
>
> ------- End of Forwarded Message
>

Pulled this out from the dusty archive......


Subject:      Millstone Branch (Back Home, Got My References)
From:         bbreynolds@aol.com (BBReynolds)
Date:         1996/05/09
Message-Id:   <4msd8o$bgp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Newsgroups:   misc.transport.rail.americas
[More Headers]

While I was out on the plains, there was a posting/query about the
Millstone Branch of the PRR in New Jersey.  Because I had covered that
route last Fall, I posted a quick "wait until I get home note"...I'm home
now, and pull off my home machine the contents of the following:


SWEEPING UP OLD PIECES GATHERED WHILE ON THE ROAD:

On 23 Feb 1996, jguthrie@nyc.pipeline.com (James R. Guthrie), put out a
posting in reply to bob.berto@acgnj.org (BOB BERTO), as follows:

<JG>Bob,

<JG>I believe you're referring to the Millstone Industrial Track (formerly
the
<JG>Millstone branch, once upon a time, the Main Line to Trenton.

<JG>I've seen this on abandonment lists.

<JG>Jim

<JG>On Feb 22, 1996 18:06:00 in article <Info on Clyde spur in NJ?>,
<JG>'bob.berto@acgnj.org (BOB BERTO)' wrote:


<JG><BB>>Hello all !
<JG><BB>
<JG><BB>>I am a regular lurker here and was wondering if anyone has any
<JG><BB>>info regarding the future for the Clyde spur off the North East
<JG><BB>>Corridor in New Jersey.  It is about a three mile west spur
<JG><BB>>from the NEC between New Brunswick and Jersey Avenue running
<JG><BB>>thru Somerset ( Franklin Township ).  I had read in the public
<JG><BB>>notice section of the local paper that it was to be abandoned.
<JG><BB>>
<JB><BB>>Bob Berto, SysOp, Amateur Computer Group of New Jersey BBS
<JB><BB>>908-AIR-BBS-3
...tags deleted...

I've been away, and couldn't get back to my sources when I saw Jim's
posting,
but have now returned and will repost a posting on Central NJ railroad
history
which I put out in 12/95.  Main reason, to refute Jim on statement that
Millstone
branch was ever the "Main Line to Trenton":

<12/95>Subj:    Fwd: Central Jersey RR's
<12/95>Subject: Central New Jersey RR's (was RE: NJ Transit)
<12/95>From: bbreynolds@aol.com (BBReynolds)
<12/95>Date: 2 Dec 1995 17:42:23 -0500
<12/95>In message <491tpos$lak@newsbf02.news.aol.com> of 23 Nov 1995,
<12/95>TRHickey
<12/95>(trhickey@aol.com) added to the thread "NJ Transit", which included
a
<12/95>discussion of the NJT Jersey Avenue station in New Brunswick and
the
<12/95>PRR Millstone Branch which joins the PRR main line at Jersey
Avenue.
<12/95>TR wrote:
<12/95><If I'm not mistaken, isn't the East Millstone Branch the northern
remant
<12/95><of an old PRR predecessor across NJ which ran to Trenton through
<12/95>Princeton
<12/95><alongside the canal?
<12/95><The company jointly ran the railroad and the Delaware & Raritan
<12/95><Canal in competition with the more southerly Camden & Amboy,
<12/95><another PRR predecessor.
<12/95><When the Pennsy decided to consolidate and upgraded its alignments
<12/95><across New Jersey, they built the "Broad-Way of Commerce" we know
<12/95><today at {as} the Northeast Corridor. The Board of Directors of
the
<12/95><predecessor railroad who lived in Princeton balked about the new
main
<12/95><line being shifted so far out of town.  As a result, a spur line
was
<12/95><extended from the new main to the heart of Princeton and the
Princeton
<12/95><Dinky (better known as the PJ&B) was born.>

My Reply:

<12/95>Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we try to trace central New
Jersey
<12/95>railroads...

<12/95>First, the route from Trenton to New Brunswick along the canal:

<12/95>The Camden & Amboy finished their route from South Amboy to
Bordentown in
<12/95>1832; the Delaware & Raritan Canal Bordentown to New Brunswick was
in
<12/05>operation in 1834.  In a mutual effort to stymie competition, the
two
<12/95>companies joined their financial interests as the "Joint
Companies".
<12/95>The charter for the Joint Companies required the C&A to build a
branch
<12/95>line to New Brunswick to connect with the New Jersey Railroad which
was
<12/95>then being built from Jersey City to New Brunswick.  In the
meantime,
<12/95>the Philadelphia & Trenton RR was nearing completion from
Kensington
<12/95>to Morrisville: this railroad intended to purchase the Trenton &
<12/95>New Brunswick Straight Turnpike Company (established in 1804) and
convert
<12/95>the turnpike into a railroad.
<12/95>To stymie this effort, the Joint Companies made a pooling
arrangement with
<12/95>the P & T, and the C & A agreed to build from Bordentown through
Trenton
<12/95>to New Brunswick.  The cheapest route to use was that of the
just-completed
<12/95>canal, and a single track railroad was laid on the east bank of the
canal
<12/95>(the west bank is the tow path) from the Trenton canal basin to
just below
<12/95>Kingston, and then to Dean's Pond and onto the currently-used
alignment
<12/95>to New Brunswick, this route being completed by 1839.  Although
Wilmot
<12/95>states that "no drawing or photo is known" (Wilmot, p. 46) of the
first
<12/95>Princeton station, the Steamboat or Railroad Hotel at the Princeton
canal
<12/95>basin served both systems, and a photo is in McKelvey's book (p.
24).
<12/95>The canal basin was a good bit southeast of Princeton town and
college,
<12/95>near where Alexander Street now crosses the canal.  In 1862, the
current
<12/95>alignment from Trenton to Dean's Pond was completed, the rails were
almost
<12/95>immediately removed from the canal bank, and the Princeton Branch
was built,
<12/95>giving better access to the town and college than before.  The
portion of
<12/95>the old alignment between Kingston and Dean's Pond was extended
through
<12/95>Kingston, up the east bank of the canal to the Rocky Hill trap rock
quarry,
<12/95>becoming the Rocky Hill branch.  All of this was absorbed into the
PRR in
<12/95>1871 when the United New Jersey Lines, which had succeeded to the
Joint
<12/95>Companies, were leased for the usual 999-year term (see Burgess, p.
244 for
<12/95>a map of the United Lines).  The eastern end of the Rocky Hill
branch was
<12/95>realigned to meet the main stem at Monmouth Junction at the time
the
<12/95>Jamesburg and Freehold branch was built from Jamesburg to Monmouth
Junction.
<12/95>Little remains of this first alignment: even the first pictures of
the
<12/95>Princeton branch bridge across the canal show no sign that a
railroad had
<12/95>been on the canal bank only a year or two before.  The Rocky Hill
branch was
<12/95>abandoned by Conrail in the 1970's, and has been torn up, but
probably can
<12/95>be easily followed.  A 1963 air view (Menzies, p. 235) moreover,
shows a
<12/95>distinctive double line of trees curving from the canal bank to the
Rocky
<12/95>Hill branch alignment, which most likely is the alignment of the
original
<12/95>railroad line.  Dean's Pond was recently spruced up, and can be
seen on the
<12/95>east side of the Amtrak main line about one-quarter mile north of
Monmouth
<12/95>Junction.

<12/95>Next, the Millstone branch.

<12/95>This line was chartered in 1841, but as it essentially shorthauled
the
<12/95>canal between Millstone and New Brunswick, it was bought up by the
Joint
<12/95>Companies: it was only constructed in the 1850's, reaching East
Millstone
<12/95>(Johnsville) in 1856.  The line was part of the United Lines leased
to the
<12/95>PRR in 1871. In 1872, the canal and river were bridged by the
railroad, and
<12/95>the line was connected to the Mercer and Somerset, which connected
with the
<12/95>Belvidere-Delaware just north of Trenton (Somerset Junction) and
ran through
<12/95>Pennington and Hopewell, before swinging east to Millstone.  The
Mercer and
<12/95>Somerset was one of New Jersey's shortest lived lines, being
abandoned in
<12/95>1879.  It is not even mentioned in Burgess and Kennedy, whose book
includes
<12/95>about every foot of PRR corporate structures. The M & NB shows as
completed
<12/95>to Millstone, and the M & S shows as projected, in an 1860 New
Jersey railroad
<12/95>map (Alexander, 1957, p. 42). The combined route shows on the PRR
system map,
<12/95>c.1876, which is in both of Alexander's books (1957, p. 38; 1971,
endpapers).
<12/95>The Mercer & Someset figured in the "Hopewell Frog War", when the
Delaware &
<12/95>Bound Brook (being built by the Northern Pennsylvania) attempted to
cross the
<12/95>PRR at Hopewell. My guess is that the Millstone river bridge was
wiped out by
<12/95>a freshet, as the flood plain is very wide there (the area is now
wooded, but
<12/95>McKelvey shows the area as open fields (p. 45)). The next attempt
to go
<12/95>beyond East Millstone was one in 1901 by the Raritan River Rail
Road
<12/95>(which runs from South Amboy to New Brunswick, ending several
hundred yards
<12/95>east of, but not connecting to the PRR main line at about the point
where the
<12/95>Millstone branch comes in) (RR now a Conrail branch), to take over
the
<12/95>Millstone branch, relay the Mercer & Somerset and connect to the
Reading at
<12/95>Hopewell and on the branch line from West Trenton to Trenton. This
would have
<12/95>given the Reading a second route to New York Harbor. The second
attempt was
<12/95>one by the Raritan River in 1903 to use the Millstone branch as the
beginning
<12/95>of a line which would go from Millstone up the Raritan to White
House station
<12/95>on the Jersey Central, and connect with the New Jersey &
Pennsylvania
<12/95>(Rockaway Valley) to form an "outer belt" through Morristown, but
which would
<12/95>again give an alternate route for Reading and Jersey Central into
New York Harbor.
<12/95>The Millstone branch slowly declined, especially after the
Fleischman's
<12/95>distillery at East Millstone burned c. 1910.  I can recall only one
attempt
<12/95>to move traffic on the line in the late 1970's, and the line has
been abandoned
<12/95>by Conrail a few hundred yards west of Jersey Avenue (the street).

In other words, the Millstone branch was never the main line to Trenton.

(...section on Reading line into Princeton deleted...)

<12/95>References:

<12/95>Alexander, Edwin P., _On the Main Line: The Pennsylvania Railroad
in the
<12/95>19th Century_, New York, 1971.

<12/95>-----, _The Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictorial History_, New York,
1957.

<12/95>Burgess,  George H., and Kennedy, Miles C., _Centennial History of
the
<12/95>Pennsylvania Railroad_, Philadelphia, 1949.

<12/95>Deibert, Frederick W., _Rails Up the Raritan: A History of the
Raritan
<12/95>River Rail Road_, Piscataway, 1983.

<12/95>Jacobs, Timothy, _The History of the Pennsylvania Railroad_,
Greenwich
<12/95>(CT), 1988.

<12/95>McKelvey, William J., Jr., _The Delaware & Raritan Canal: A
Pictorial
<12/95>History_, York, 1975.

<12/95>Menzies, Elizabeth G. C., _Millstone Valley_, New Brunswick, 1969.

<12/95>Taber, Thomas, III, _The Rock-a-Bye Baby: A History of the Rockaway
Valley
<12/95>Railroad_, Muncy (PA), 1972.

<12/95>Wilmot, John R., "The Princeton Branch: From Camden & Amboy to NJ
<12/95>Transit", _Trains_, Volume 47, Number 8, (June 1987), pp. 44-51.



--
Chris Brandt
http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:43:31 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Modeling Towers


 Hi all....

  just in case anyone does'nt know....Two of these stone towers are
  shown in "On The Main Line". One on page 96 is listed as East Altoona
  (picture shows it where it is sitting directly over the under pass-tunnel
  and it shows another on page 116 as IA tower at Allegrippus curve.

  I'm gonna have my own problems building the two twin towers at Baltimore
  near the station...

                                                 Til Later
                                                 Hank Mummert


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:32:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] modeling towers

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Jerry wrote:

> Derrick: 
> 
> I've only ever seen photos of the one just west of MG (near Benny). 
> Forget its name.

Presumably AG (as in AlleGrippus). I realize that Triumph 1 isn't exactly
a reliable source, but here's what's in there....

on p.117 there's 2 shots of AG, noting it's the 3rd and last of the 1892
stone towers. The tower closed 10 Sep 1931, was considered for reopening
in 1940, but was not... and he claims he doesn't know when it was razed.
So it's at least possible it was there in 1945.

Working backwards, there was IA which he says was near McGinley's
Curve (I can't guess what IA stood for), on p.112.

The third, KN, was actually part of Kittanning Point station. See p.80.
The photo on p.89 was supposedly taken in 1940, and KN is still there. On
p.84 he says he assumes it was razed in 1941.

> As for scratchbuilding, I would first check with stores that sell AD&D 
> (Dungeons & Dragons) game stuff. Perhaps they'd have a small "Keep" that 
> would fare close.

That's an idea. I'll have to see if any of my coworkers still do anything
D&D-ish and might know.... 

If I could up with a reasonable way to do something and anyone else cares
I can keep you all up to date.

-D



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:35:09 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Conrail-NS ramblings


 Hmmmm..

   Rick wrote this....

   
What is up with Conrail?  First the PRR towers near Altoona, and now the Erie
Meadville coaling tower comes down.  It seems as if Conrail is trying to
remove every historic structure along their right of way.

I believe that somewhere along the line, NS has decided that they wanted to
get rid of these structures along their new mainlines, and directed Conrail to
do the dirty deeds during its final days so NS won't receive any negative
publicity.  I'm just waiting to see how long the Girard, OH PRR coaling tower
will remain.  I don't give it much time before good old Sherman continues his
march to the sea.

Merry Christmas, NS style.

Rick

  

   It also might be NS's way of reducing liability law suits too.

   But this is all nothing new....I was at Cockeysville, Md the day
   Penn Central tore down the former 1865 Northern Central passenger
   station. (thank fully the freight station still stands).
   PC got rid of that one for the two reasons already mentioned....
   taxes and liability. Cockeysville had been the center of the community
   at one time. The towers in Baltimore are gone too...done by Amtrak
   in the name of progress. Remember Penn station in New York was 
   torn down as progress and for the money the space over the tracks
   could generate....Same for Old Broad Street in Philly.
   
   Only if businesses could be more far sighted....Penn Central
   could have torn down the old Presidents Street station in Baltimore
   (former P,B & W RR station that Lincoln went threw...in 1861).
   but for some reason did'nt...We are very lucky its still around
   today...now headed toward restoration (see the current issue of the
   Keystone )

   Had Mr Claytor still been at the helm...who knows what would have 
   happened...I feel he was the reason the NS steam program lasted
   so long. (note how soon after he passed that it was done away with).
   NS has'nt saved much in their name sake area...so its not
   surprising.(I live near Norfolk)

   Hmmmmm....i wonder if the down turn in coal loadings(ships at NS piers)
this    year has something to do with it too ?


                                          Til Later
                                          Hank Mummert


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:47:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Why is Conrail Demolishing Historic Structures NOW?

In a message dated 98-12-22 21:35:55 EST, you write:

<< What is up with Conrail?  First the PRR towers near Altoona, and now the
Erie
 Meadville coaling tower comes down.  It seems as if Conrail is trying to
 remove every historic structure along their right of way. >>

One thing to remember is that these structures cost the company property taxes
, when not used they are prone to vandalism and break ins or worse. Conrail
has donated many items to museums such as equiptment out of MG to the Altoona
Museum . They transported the H-21 ice breaker from Cresson to Strasburg with
friction bearing trucks and even did a free COTS on the car before it left
Cresson.  The Queen Mary flat sits in Altoona thanks to Conrail.
 We can't save everything out there as it's hard to maintain what has been
saved.  MO was torn down because when they tried to move it it started to fall
apart. There was no economical way to save the tower so it's gone.  Empty
buildings attract rocks, homeless people and those with plain vandalism in
mind. There are not enough rr police out there as it is let alone ones to
protect unused historic structures. I'm an part owner of some Alco FA
locomotives and we spend as much repairing damage from kids and railfans as we
do to restore them. It would be nice to see all the coaling towers and block
stations saved but if we saved them how long would they last without
protection ???
                                                             Ken McCorry

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:31:22 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Why is Conrail Demolishing Historic Structures NOW?


--------------29D6E693C32D6205DF3A8CC7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Howdy All:

I know that we look on these structures as unique and historically important,
however, local municipalities look on them as structures, and as such tax
revenue.   In this day and age the Right-of-way is just another private sector
industry and as such it is part of the tax base.   Buildings add value to the
property, take away the buildings and the property can be re-assessed at a lower
value.   Most municipalities tax the railroad at a standard level - on par with
other industry within its jurisdiction.   Unfortunately, some have special tax
code sections dealing just with the railroad.   We who witness and record the
railroads, are often confused by what the railroads do!  We must remember that the
railroads are in business to make a profit, not only so that it may continue in
business but also to reward those who have faith that it will continue on - the
evil stockholder!   Most stockholders do not care that MG tower has been on guard
at Horseshoe curve for many years.  Most stockholders couldn't tell you the
difference between an SD90MAC and SD80MAC - and yes you will here about a big Mac
attack.

It is important for us (railfans) to support the rail industry and to be actively
aware and involved in those matters at the local, state and federal level which
can effect the railroads.   Buying and holding stock is one way to be actively
involved.  And don't forget you get to vote for the people that decided the
overall course that is taken.  How many of us own Conrail stock and let the Board
know how we felt?

Anyway, I would like to take this opportunity to wish each and everyone of you on
the PRR-Talk list a very Joyous Christmas.   My prayer would be that each of you,
at this special time in Christian life, no matter what nationality, religion,
creed, sex or whatever other way we have come up to separate ourselves from each
other, have someone special to be with and hold on to too.

Merry Christmas
Cos
wsbcos.com


TodEngine@aol.com wrote:

> What is up with Conrail?  First the PRR towers near Altoona, and now the Erie
> Meadville coaling tower comes down.  It seems as if Conrail is trying to
> remove every historic structure along their right of way.
>
> I believe that somewhere along the line, NS has decided that they wanted to
> get rid of these structures along their new mainlines, and directed Conrail to
> do the dirty deeds during its final days so NS won't receive any negative
> publicity.  I'm just waiting to see how long the Girard, OH PRR coaling tower
> will remain.  I don't give it much time before good old Sherman continues his
> march to the sea.
>
> Merry Christmas, NS style.
>
> Rick
>
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--------------29D6E693C32D6205DF3A8CC7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Howdy All:

<P>I know that we look on these structures as unique and historically important,
however, local municipalities look on them as structures, and as such tax
revenue.&nbsp;&nbsp; In this day and age the <I>Right-of-way</I> is just
another private sector industry and as such it is part of the tax base.&nbsp;&nbsp;
Buildings add value to the property, take away the buildings and the property
can be re-assessed at a lower value.&nbsp;&nbsp; Most municipalities tax
the railroad at a standard level - on par with other industry within its
jurisdiction.&nbsp;&nbsp; Unfortunately, some have special tax code sections
dealing just with the railroad.&nbsp;&nbsp; We who witness and record the
railroads, are often confused by what the railroads do!&nbsp; We must remember
that the railroads are in business to make a profit, not only so that it
may continue in business but also to reward those who have faith that it
will continue on - the evil stockholder!&nbsp;&nbsp; Most stockholders
do not care that MG tower has been on guard at Horseshoe curve for many
years.&nbsp; Most stockholders couldn't tell you the difference between
an SD90MAC and SD80MAC - and yes you will here about a big Mac attack.

<P>It is important for us (railfans) to support the rail industry and to
be actively aware and involved in those matters at the local, state and
federal level which can effect the railroads.&nbsp;&nbsp; Buying and holding
stock is one way to be actively involved.&nbsp; And don't forget you get
to vote for the people that decided the overall course that is taken.&nbsp;
How many of us own Conrail stock and let the Board know how we felt?

<P>Anyway, I would like to take this opportunity to wish each and everyone
of you on the PRR-Talk list a very Joyous Christmas.&nbsp;&nbsp; My prayer
would be that each of you, at this special time in Christian life, no matter
what nationality, religion, creed, sex or whatever other way we have come
up to separate ourselves from each other, have someone special to be with
and hold on to too.

<P>Merry Christmas
<BR>Cos
<BR>wsbcos.com
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>TodEngine@aol.com wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>What is up with Conrail?&nbsp; First the PRR towers
near Altoona, and now the Erie
<BR>Meadville coaling tower comes down.&nbsp; It seems as if Conrail is
trying to
<BR>remove every historic structure along their right of way.

<P>I believe that somewhere along the line, NS has decided that they wanted
to
<BR>get rid of these structures along their new mainlines, and directed
Conrail to
<BR>do the dirty deeds during its final days so NS won't receive any negative
<BR>publicity.&nbsp; I'm just waiting to see how long the Girard, OH PRR
coaling tower
<BR>will remain.&nbsp; I don't give it much time before good old Sherman
continues his
<BR>march to the sea.

<P>Merry Christmas, NS style.

<P>Rick

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:24:29 EST
Subject: [PRR] EMD vs. GE vs. Westinghouse electrical gear

In a message dated 12/22/98 9:21:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes:

> Rick,
>  
>      I thought GM's traction motor was based on Westinghouse that EMD used
>  before they were (EMD) bought out by GM.
>  
>  Mike

Mike,
Apparently not so.  First of all, GM bought out Electro-motive Corporation of
Cleveland in 1930.  Standard switchers and passenger units "were marketed in
1935."  GM formally merged EMD in 1941.

To quote Jerry Pinkepank, writing in 1973 in Kalmbach's The Second Diesel
Spotter's Guide, "Up until 1938, EMD used General Electric and occasionally
Westinghouse electrical equipment.  From 1938, EMD has used its own electrical
equipment, based on the GE designs it was using at that time.  (GE model 716
traction motor, on which the EMD motors ever since are based, is so similar,
armatures are interchangeable with EMD motors)."

The Contemporary Diesel Spotter's Guide (Kalmbach) is an update of the above
reference, so you might check to see if it contains the same language.  Most
railfan discussions of diesel technology (and many modeling articles) are
founded on the information in Kalmbach's Diesel Spotter's Guides (one covers
pre-1972, one covers after), so these two books belong on your shelf.  

We might need to go deeper (Trains magazines or EMD sources) or wake up some
of the "professional" diesel historians to get more detail than the above.

BTW, if I remember correctly, Westinghouse traction motors (Pinkepank refers
to them as six-pole motors) are larger than GE's or EMD's.  This means:
1.  With more material in them, they take longer to overheat, therefore
are/were good luggers for lowspeed service.
2.  Because of the larger size, Westinghouse motors won't fit into a truck
sized for GE or EMD.  This is why the Baldwin and FM trucks with Westinghouse
traction motors often had a longer wheelbase than the corresponding Alco
truck, which carried GE motors.

By the way, I'd love to see Pennsy modelers dig deeper into the logic and
history of PRR's assignment of individual diesel classes.  We know in general
that EMD passenger power pushed Alco PA's, Baldwins (both the Centipedes and
BP20's), and FM Erie-Builts off the through PRR trains and into disgrace e.g.
- onto north-south secondary routes
- into freight regearing
- into helper service
- even into premature retirement
But there must be more to the story than this.  Can anyone tell it?

Rick Tipton

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:13:23 EST
Subject: [PRR] FM switcher - memory vs. preserved at KRM

In a message dated 12/22/98 10:32:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nfmisso@flash.net writes:

> > Still, I'd love to see an H10-44 in a museum.  
>  
>  Rick, from Louisville to KRM is only a couple of hours, there is an ex
>  Army H-10-44 there.
>  Nigel
>  
Nigel,
Thanks for the reminder.  KRM is probably only an hour from Louisville, and
not much more from my present house.  The PRR FMs I remember around Dayton and
Xenia definitely had the overhanging roof of the original Loewy body,
delivered on H10-44's through 1949.  The Army switcher at KRM looks like an
H-12-44 in the post-March 1953 fully spartanized carbody.  But I'll check this
out.

(Data from my copy of The Second Diesel Spotter's Guide  by Jerry Pinkepank,
Kalmbach 1973

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] modeling towers
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 06:19:19 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/22/98 11:32 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote:

>Presumably AG (as in AlleGrippus). I realize that Triumph 1 isn't exactly
>a reliable source, but here's what's in there....

Yup...that's the one I was thinking of.
>
>on p.117 there's 2 shots of AG, noting it's the 3rd and last of the 1892
>stone towers. The tower closed 10 Sep 1931, was considered for reopening
>in 1940, but was not... and he claims he doesn't know when it was razed.
>So it's at least possible it was there in 1945.
>
>Working backwards, there was IA which he says was near McGinley's
>Curve (I can't guess what IA stood for), on p.112.

In the Air?  ;-)
>
>The third, KN, was actually part of Kittanning Point station. See p.80.
>The photo on p.89 was supposedly taken in 1940, and KN is still there. On
>p.84 he says he assumes it was razed in 1941.

Duh! How could I have overlooked that one? Actually, the entire 
Kittanning Point area would make a wonderful model. Tower, station, coal 
dock, branch line, crossovers...


-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 8:09:27 EST
From: <kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL>
Subject: [PRR] PRR license plate

For those of us who live in Pennsylvania we will soon have the opportunity 
to purchase a new license plate for our vehicles based on the PRR.  Last 
evening on the local news the state unveiled its latest plate which depicts 
a K4 painted by Grif Teller. I beleive it was one of his calendar images, 
but I'm not sure.  The plate promotes Pennsylvania Heritage and will cost 
$35. I didn't catch when it would be available.  The unveiling ceremony was 
conducted in the Railroad Museum of Pa in Strasburg. From what I saw it 
looked very sharp.

Merry Christmas & Happy Hanukkah to all

Kris


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] Brass Models
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 09:12:09 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

For vendor links on Keystone Crossings, can anyone provide links for 
manufacturers or resellers of brass (new or used)?

Also, for my own benefit, which brass manufacturer(s) produced BP60 
Centipedes in HO?

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] eBay PRR bonanza!!!
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 08:54:39 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

eBay users: Do a search on SELLER="rollermills"

This seller has posted, in the past 24 hours, dozens of PRR items, 
including numerous Williamsport Division ETTs, Wilkes-Barre Division 
ETTs, Philadelphia Division ETTs, and Middle Division ETTs, mostly from 
the 1930s, some earlier. Also, numerous issues of The Pennsy from the 
1950s and 1960s.

Hope someone can snag some of this stuff for our mutual benefit. I am a 
bit "cash poor" at the moment and must resist!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:32:59 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Traffic in 1954

Jerry,
You are modeling Harrisburg, which is/was the center of traffic running in all
directions.  Cars from virtually any railroad generating long-distance traffic
would be credible...

Of course, the fun way to do this is to study movies and photos of the area,
and record what roadnames show up.

In a message dated 12/22/98 4:33:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

> I'd like to know what roads I can/should include in my consists, 
>  considering that I am modeling 1954.
>  
>  I am sure of these roads:
>       New York Central
>       Reading
>       Central of New Jersey
>       Maryland & Pennsylvania
>       Baltimore & Ohio
>  
>  What about these roads (based on available models):
>       Delaware & Hudson (D&H)
>       Lehigh & New England (LNE)
>       Seaboard Air Line (SAL)
>       Pittsburgh & Lake Erie
>       Norfolk & Western
>       Detroit Toledo & Ironton (DT&I)
>       Virginian
>       Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O)
>       Great Northern
>       Monon
>       Atlantic Coast Line (ACL)
>       Nickel Plate Road (NKP)
>       Wabash
>       D&RGW
>       Pere Marquette
Merged into C&O about 1947.  Of course, equipment still around.
>       MKT
>       Clinchfield
>       Western Maryland
>       Boston & Maine
>       Erie Lackawanna
Not in 1954.  It's still Erie and DL&W to at least 1958.

Also, don't ignore the western roads, which will send you huge traffic flows
via Chicago, Saint Looey, and other interchange points:
	ATSF
	UP
	SP
	CB&Q
	NP
	and (especially) Pacific Fruit Express.

Your homeroad reefers are Fruit Growers Express, coming north via Pot Yard,
Cincinnati, and other points.

Also, you'll see CN and CP cars from the north; newsprint and lumber if
nothing else.

Have fun,
Rick Tipton
	

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] Happy Holidays from the Listmeister!
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 08:29:58 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I'd like to wish a safe and Happy Holiday season to all of my list 
consituents and their families. Thank you for riding with us and have a 
Happy New Year!

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] Freight Schemes / C&BT Shops
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 10:07:11 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I've updated the Freight paint schemes page with listings of available HO 
cars from C&BT Shops. They have quite a variety of 40' AAR box cars, as 
follows:

Scheme: Cars
CK: X-43, X-43a, X-43b, X-43c
SK1a: X-43b
SK1b: X-43, X-43c
SK2a: X-43a, X-43c
SK2b: X-43c

Can anyone comment on the accuracy of these cars?

What's the difference in the X-43 with the "a", "b", and "c" 
modifications?


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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:38:39 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: Interchange traffic in 1954

Jerry,

	Remember the friends/enemies threads of last summer. Yes, while it is
possible that you'd find an NYC car in a Pennsy consist in Harrisburg you
wouldn't find many since it was major competitor of the PRR, serving many of
the same cities on parallel routes, i.e., NYC: water-level route/PRR: Fort
Wayne System; NYC: Bee Line/PRR: Panhandle; NYC: St. Louis, Alton & Terre
Haute/PRR: Southwest Div (St. Louis, Vandalia & Terre Haute).
	If you were going to find an NYC car in a Pennsy train, it'd likely be a
singleton heading back east from off the system.
	  Other direct Competitors would be Nickel Plate; Baltimore & Ohio.
	OTOH, Far more common would cars of PRR subsidiaries such as the Lehigh
Valley, N&W, Wabash or DT&I, or companies with which the PRR had close
business ties with such as the L&N, Southern, ACL or SAL through Cincinnati,
Louisville (L&N & ACL) and Washington (ACL & SAL); or MoPac, Katy, Frisco and
UP through St. Louis.
	Also the customers and PRR facilities on a line would affect traffic. If the
Philly ore docks were on line in 1954 then you'd have westbound hoppers half
full of heavy iron ore (1954 is too early for PRR jennies, you'd find them
heading east from off system) moving through Harrisburg.
	1954 is too early for Erie-Lackawanna. That merger occurred in 1960s. In 1954
you'd still have the Erie Railway and the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western.
other road that would pop up occasionally shortly before they disappeared
through late 1950s mergers would the Minneapolis & St. Louis RR "The Peoria
Gateway," and the Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis. I believe that 1954 is
after the C&O absorbed the Pere Marquette making a PM car far more rare. 

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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:51:47 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] FM switcher - memory vs. preserved at KRM

In a message dated 12/23/98 2:36:08 AM SA Pacific Standard Time,
RickTipton@aol.com writes:

<<  The PRR FMs I remember around Dayton and
 Xenia definitely had the overhanging roof of the original Loewy body,
 delivered on H10-44's through 1949 >>

Rick,

	Bought two of George's snaps of H10-44 PRR #9087 taken in 1954 at the Xenia
LM&C&XRR depot clearly showing it was a full Lowery. I'm using it to detail
myCary H10-44 w/Smoky Valley frame.


Tom V.

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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:49:42 -0500
From: Dan Cupper <dan@cwix.com>
Subject: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report

{Season's} Greetings to Jerry and the list:

Yesterday's event at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania was held to
unveil the new Pa. "Preserve Our Heritage" PRR license plate. For a
background, it uses the 1928 Grif Teller painting "When the Broad Way
Meets the Dawn," which was Teller's first PRR calendar painting. The
original, which is in the museum's collection, depicts the moment when
the first rays of daylight hit Train 28 as it passed through the Juniata
River Valley en route from Chicago to NY.

Teller's daughter and son-in-law Ruth and Ed Bragg (of New York state)
and his grandson, Jim Teller (who lives in Lancaster) were present. Jim
unveiled the plate, along with Pa. Historical & Museum Commission
Chairman Janet Klein. Other dignitaries in attendance: PennDOT secretary
Bradley Mallory (whose grandfather worked for the Wellsville, Addison &
Galeton); PHMC Exec Director Brent Glass; Pa. assemblyman and Pa. House
Transportation Committee Chairman Rick Geist (who is on the board of the
Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum and was instrumental in the 1986-88
restoration of K4 1361); Pa. Rep. Jere Schuler of Lancaster, a Friends
of the RR Museum volunteer (and huge fan of GG1s!); Museum Director
David Dunn; former Museum Director George Hart (who personally
transported the 1928 painting to the museum from its donor, back in the
1970s); Friends President Bob Lawrence; Museum Curator George Deming;
Museum Restoration Chief Allan Martin; PHMC Marketing Director Gloria
Schleicher; Pa. Senator Edwin Holl, who once worked as a PRR executive;
and assorted fans/historians such as NRHS guru Frank Tatnall, CR
intermodal exec Doug Watts, photographer Ken Murry, and publisher Paul
Withers.

The event was held in front of K4 3750, which was decorated with a
wreath around its numberplate keystone for the season. A plate with the
number 1361 was delivered to Rick Geist (not "given," since he paid for
it) and one with the number 3750 to David Dunn (ditto).

After the ceremony, those present could buy a plate at a table in the
lobby (Nos. 500 to 599 were on hand there).

The plate costs $35, $15 of which is returned to the museum for
programs, publications, etc.  This fee is in addition to the regular
registration fee.  Several people reported that those manning the table
said a sample plate with the number OOOO will be available (they're not
yet stamped) for $5, for those who don't want to go the whole way with
the plate, or for those who live out of state.

Grif and the K4 now join the Flagship Niagara, Penn State (and other
college) alumni, and various animals (tiger, owl) in decorating Pa.
license plates.

Dan

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
Dan Cupper
dan@cwix.com
Luke 2:14 "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men."

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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:30:24 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Models

Howdy All and Jerry:

One of my favorite sites for brass is Mitchell's, located in Wilmington
Delaware, and http://www.mitchells.com.
I can't find my copy of the Brown Book right now, so I'll have to pass on
the BP60 question.

Cos
wsbcos.com

Jerry wrote:

> For vendor links on Keystone Crossings, can anyone provide links for
> manufacturers or resellers of brass (new or used)?
>
> Also, for my own benefit, which brass manufacturer(s) produced BP60
> Centipedes in HO?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>    Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
> Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>    Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
> WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>    The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!
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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:50:39 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Conrail and stone towers


 hi...these did'nt go through before...so i'm trying again.


 
Rick

  

   It also might be NS's way of reducing liability law suits too.

   But this is all nothing new....I was at Cockeysville, Md the day
   Penn Central tore down the former 1865 Northern Central passenger
   station. (thank fully the freight station still stands).
   PC got rid of that one for the two reasons already mentioned....
   taxes and liability. Cockeysville had been the center of the community
   at one time. The towers in Baltimore are gone too...done by Amtrak
   in the name of progress. Remember Penn station in New York was 
   torn down as progress and for the money the space over the tracks
   could generate....Same for Old Broad Street in Philly.
   
   Only if businesses could be more far sighted....Penn Central
   could have torn down the old Presidents Street station in Baltimore
   (former P,B & W RR station that Lincoln went threw...in 1861).
   but for some reason did'nt...We are very lucky its still around
   today...now headed toward restoration (see the current issue of the
   Keystone )

   Had Mr Claytor still been at the helm...who knows what would have 
   happened...I feel he was the reason the NS steam program lasted
   so long. (note how soon after he passed that it was done away with).
   NS has'nt saved much in their name sake area...so its not
   surprising.(I live near Norfolk)

   Hmmmmm....i wonder if the down turn in coal loadings(ships at NS piers)
this    year has something to do with it too ?


                                          Til Later
                                          Hank Mummert

  And then....


  

 Hi all....

  just in case anyone does'nt know....Two of these stone towers are
  shown in "On The Main Line". One on page 96 is listed as East Altoona
  (picture shows it where it is sitting directly over the under pass-tunnel
  and it shows another on page 116 as IA tower at Allegrippus curve.

  I'm gonna have my own problems building the two twin towers at Baltimore
  near the station...

                                                 Til Later
                                                 Hank Mummert


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:08:23 -0800
From: Roger Elliott <relliott@mail.telis.org>
Subject: [PRR] PRR HO 6-8-6 S-2 Steam Turbine loco

Hello one and all and Merry Christmas!
I have posted on e-bay an ALCO model of the s-2 steam turbine loco.  The
bidding started at $400 a few days ago and will end tomorrow night.  I
forgot to mention the first time I posted here about it, that I was the
person selling it.  It runs well and is painted correctly.  It has the
original box and foam, too.  Item # 50078833.

Cheers,
Roger Elliott


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Subject: Re: [PRR] modeling towers
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 14:50:23 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/23/98 12:04 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote:

>Actually I really like the way the octagonal tower by Union Station (I
>believe that is what it is) in Pittsburgh is a very neat looking
>structure, have thought of doing this one myself just for the looks.

The octagonal tower should be done by someone commercially. They were 
"everywhere" on the system!

True, they were taken out of service early in this century and replaced 
by newer towers (or no longer needed), but many stood for many 
years...York, York Haven, New Freedom, to name a few.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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From: "Bill Knepper" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Why is Conrail Demolishing Historic Structures NOW?
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:51:24 -0500

Save what you can maintain and support, and pray for the rest !

Bill 
"At the end of the NCR - New Freedom, PA"
	( well at least till NS decides if they want the track back!)

----------
> From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
> To: TodEngine@aol.com
> Cc: Prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Why is Conrail Demolishing Historic Structures NOW?
> Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 12:47 AM
> 
> In a message dated 98-12-22 21:35:55 EST, you write:
> 
> << What is up with Conrail?  First the PRR towers near Altoona, and now
the
> Erie
>  Meadville coaling tower comes down.  It seems as if Conrail is trying to
>  remove every historic structure along their right of way. >>
> 
> One thing to remember is that these structures cost the company property
taxes
> , when not used they are prone to vandalism and break ins or worse.
Conrail
> has donated many items to museums such as equiptment out of MG to the
Altoona
> Museum . They transported the H-21 ice breaker from Cresson to Strasburg
with
> friction bearing trucks and even did a free COTS on the car before it
left
> Cresson.  The Queen Mary flat sits in Altoona thanks to Conrail.
>  We can't save everything out there as it's hard to maintain what has
been
> saved.  MO was torn down because when they tried to move it it started to
fall
> apart. There was no economical way to save the tower so it's gone.  Empty
> buildings attract rocks, homeless people and those with plain vandalism
in
> mind. There are not enough rr police out there as it is let alone ones to
> protect unused historic structures. I'm an part owner of some Alco FA
> locomotives and we spend as much repairing damage from kids and railfans
as we
> do to restore them. It would be nice to see all the coaling towers and
block
> stations saved but if we saved them how long would they last without
> protection ???
>                                                              Ken McCorry
> 
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From: FRANKGARON@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:30:51 EST
Subject: [PRR] Millstone Branch/Mercer & Somerset info

I have passed over this line 100's of times back when I was a trcuk driver
here in NJ. 

IIRC, Conrail ran out to a factory or warehouse in the Veronica Ave (Rd?) area
of Somerset until about 1993-1995. The track was the worst I've evr seen on
Conrail. It looked like all original rail and ties! Last train I saw was 1
GP38 and maybe 2 cars. 

For awhile, Conrail stopped serving this company, the tracks got rusty, and
branches started falling on the tracks.  After a year of so of no use, I
believe they rehabbed the tracks just enough to run trains back out to the
same area. Later on they went back in and fixed the tracks up even more.

There is a building on the NE side of the RT27 crossing in a junkyard, that
almost looks like a modified staton, but I never could confirm it.

The line west of the factory looks like it has been gone forever. You can
still trace most of it.  There is 1 pier over the Millstone river still
standing. You can follow the M&S most of the way to the junction with the Bel
Del. 

It's gone in spots, but suprisingly intact in most areas. You can see where it
crossed  the road from Skillman to Belle Mead, and where it crossed Rt 518.
Through Hopewell, it's the road just east of the Reading mainline. There is a
culvert still intact, along with the heavily modified station. Below the
culvert, it's got a development on it.  You can then see where it crosses Rt
31 above the Reading bridge that served the quarry on Rt31.  The ROW is very
visible in the winter.

The station in Pennington (along with the HQ building for the M&S) still
stands in the SW corner of the Rt31 intersection with the crossroad into
downtown Pennington. It is behind the realter's office, diagonal to Rosedale
Mills.

When you are on Jacobs Creek Rd, you can see exactly where the ROW ends, and
the road is built on top of it until you hit Rt29 at Somerset Junction. There
is still a small stone embankment where it crossed the Canal, along with a PRR
signal lying on the ground.

There is supposed to be another station east of Hopewell that may still exist
(it was a blacksmith shop for awhile), but no one I know ever could find it.

Never heard the RRRR story about building on the M&S and to White House. It's
amzing what you learn, I've been a railfan here since 1977!

BTW, the Suydam Street(?) station onthe PRR mainline in New Brunswick still
stands AFAIK. It seems to have been eliminated around the time PRR elevated
the tracks through New Brunswick. It's ground level, east side of the tracks,
IIRC.

I would love to hear if anybody has slides or prints of the PRR stops at Menlo
Park, Robinvale, Adams and Deans.  The PRR had a big batch of stations for
such a thinly developed area!

Hope this info helps!

Frank Garon
Perth Amboy, NJ


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Schemes / C&BT Shops
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 14:38:38 -0500

The C&BT cars include all the correct features; roof style, ends, doors, etc.
Their kits contain a well done body, but the original kits had awful castings
for the ladders, grabs, roof walk, etc.  Unfortunately C&BT corrected this by
altering the body mold and casting the ladders and grabs on!  While this
produced a better, more delicate ladder than their original bad casting, it
brought the kit closer to the Athearn standard, and away from the craftsman
level of IM, Red Caboose, P2K, etc.  I buy C&BT X43s when I can find the
original kits, and I substitute IM ladders and grabs - the best of both worlds!
  To answer one of your questions - Yes, the C&BTs are accurate X43s.

Now to the other question.  What is the difference between the X43, X43a, X43b,
and X43c.  The X43 batch of cars was farmed out by the PRR to 4 different
builders; ACF, Mount Vernon, and I don't remember the other two.  Each did it a
little differently.  The only design specification difference made by the PRR
was that the X43c's had 8 ft door while all the others had 7 ft doors.  The
X43a's were riveted while al the rest were welded (or was it the other way
around?).  One of the subclasses had Murphy (Athearn) roofs. all the others had
diagonal panel roofs.  

BTW if you are willing to live with cast on ladders and grabs, the Accurail 40
ft car is close to an X43 (diagonal panel roof, 4-3-1 end, riveted body) if you
change the doors to 7 or 8 footers.

regards,

Andy Miller
==============

Jerry said:
I've updated the Freight paint schemes page with listings of available HO 
cars from C&BT Shops. They have quite a variety of 40' AAR box cars, as 
follows:

Scheme: Cars
CK: X-43, X-43a, X-43b, X-43c
SK1a: X-43b
SK1b: X-43, X-43c
SK2a: X-43a, X-43c
SK2b: X-43c

Can anyone comment on the accuracy of these cars?

What's the difference in the X-43 with the "a", "b", and "c" 
modifications?


- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!

  
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:20:47 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Traffic in 1954

--On Tuesday, December 22, 1998, 7:09 PM +0000 "George Pierson"
<George.Pierson@trnty.edu> wrote: 

> Good list!  Remember, anything that connected with the PRR in Chicago, St.

> Louis, or Cincinnati (just to name three) is fair game.
> 

And I've been struck by articles, in the past, that showed the volume of PRR
boxcars in far-flung trans-Mississippi railroad class. yards.  In 1954, the
new shadow keystone herald was joining the older schemes as a common sight
throughout the country.

Vagel

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From: "Robert Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Freight Schemes / C&BT Shops
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:42:51 -0500

Jerry,

A quick check of my web page
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/Modelpage.html?type=boxcars
shows that the circle keystone cars are all printed on the wrong carbody...
The shadow keystone schemes are pretty good though...

Rob
http://prr.railfan.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry
> Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 10:07 AM
> To: PRR-Talk
> Subject: [PRR] Freight Schemes / C&BT Shops
>
>
> I've updated the Freight paint schemes page with listings of available HO
> cars from C&BT Shops. They have quite a variety of 40' AAR box cars, as
> follows:
>
> Scheme: Cars
> CK: X-43, X-43a, X-43b, X-43c
> SK1a: X-43b
> SK1b: X-43, X-43c
> SK2a: X-43a, X-43c
> SK2b: X-43c
>
> Can anyone comment on the accuracy of these cars?
>
> What's the difference in the X-43 with the "a", "b", and "c"
> modifications?
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>    Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
> Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>    Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
> WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:17:10 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] EMD vs. GE vs. Westinghouse electrical gear

In a message dated 98-12-23 01:42:27 EST, you write:

<< ry of PRR's assignment of individual diesel classes.  We know in general
 that EMD passenger power pushed Alco PA's, Baldwins (both the Centipedes and
 BP20's), and FM Erie-Builts off the through PRR trains and into disgrace e.g.
 - onto north-south secondary routes
 - into freight regearing
 - into helper service
 - even into premature retirement
 But there must be more to the story than this.  Can anyone tell it?
 
 Rick Tipton
  >>
***simple....reliability....availabilty ( for runs )...."standard" designs and
construction...(PRR liked this for some reason...??!! hahahha)..

This made us happy, as the NY&LBRR was a "on the way to the junk-yard"
division, so to speak, so we got 'em all !!! ( K4s up..)..Bill***

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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:10:53 -0600
Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Models
From: locoshop@juno.com

OMI has recently done one of these in HO scale, problem was they were
$1350 for a pair and that was how they were run by the PRR.

On Wed, 23 Dec 98 09:12:09 -0500 Jerry <jerry@dsop.com> writes:
>For vendor links on Keystone Crossings, can anyone provide links for 
>manufacturers or resellers of brass (new or used)?
>
>Also, for my own benefit, which brass manufacturer(s) produced BP60 
>Centipedes in HO?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
>   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com

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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:04:14 -0600
Subject: Re: [PRR] modeling towers
From: locoshop@juno.com

Actually I really like the way the octagonal tower by Union Station (I
believe that is what it is) in Pittsburgh is a very neat looking
structure, have thought of doing this one myself just for the looks.

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:03:22 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear
<shadow@dementia.org> writes:
>Anyone given any thought to modeling any of the three stone 
>(castle-esque)
>towers from the slopes? It's an idea that's kind of been lurking in 
>the back of
>my head; I'm not a very good scratchbuilder when it comes to 
>structures, but
>these would be niche, so I wouldn't expect a kit... but if I thought I 
>could do
>something useful and someone wanted to use it as a master that'd be a
>possibility, at least.
>
>-D

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com

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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:33:10 -0500
From: Brian Brooks <steelfan@ohio.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Schemes / C&BT Shops

At 02:38 PM 12/23/98 -0500, you wrote:

>X43a's were riveted while al the rest were welded (or was it the other way
>around?).

The X43a (ACF) was a 12 panel welded car.  The others were 10 panel rivited.
The X43b had Superior doors, the others got Youngstown.

Merry Christmas, to all SPFs! 

Brian Brooks  


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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Models
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:18:55 -0600

Jerry--For PRR brass links you might try http://www.thecaboose.com ,
http://www.caboosehobbies.com , http://brasstrains.com , and
http://gunnings.com .  Along with Mitchells, that will give a good cross
section of availability and prices.  Have fun.

BP60 Centipedes were done by Alco Models.  Adequate models, but much gear
noise.  If you can find a set, they will be more reasonably priced than the
OMI models.

Merry Christmas!
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>
To: PRR-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 8:29 AM
Subject: [PRR] Brass Models


>For vendor links on Keystone Crossings, can anyone provide links for
>manufacturers or resellers of brass (new or used)?
>
>Also, for my own benefit, which brass manufacturer(s) produced BP60
>Centipedes in HO?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!
>
>
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>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:16:35 -0800
From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate

DARN !!!  (Not what I really wanted to say.)  And I have to be living
(read: existing) on the west coast instead of back in PA, so I can't get
one.

Chuck Friedlein

kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote:
> 
> For those of us who live in Pennsylvania we will soon have the opportunity
> to purchase a new license plate for our vehicles based on the PRR.  Last
> evening on the local news the state unveiled its latest plate which depicts
> a K4 painted by Grif Teller. I beleive it was one of his calendar images,
> but I'm not sure.  The plate promotes Pennsylvania Heritage and will cost
> $35. I didn't catch when it would be available.  The unveiling ceremony was
> conducted in the Railroad Museum of Pa in Strasburg. From what I saw it
> looked very sharp.
> 
> Merry Christmas & Happy Hanukkah to all
> 
> Kris
> 
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 22:17:00 -0500
From: Dave Freshwater <dfresh20@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate: A report

Hopefully, someone will post the procedure for us non-PA residents to
get the 0000 version of the license plate.

Dave Freshwater
North Potomac, MD



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 22:41:58 -0600
Subject: [PRR] Fw: [D] Insider Info (P2K GP9s)
From: locoshop@juno.com

Hello all,

I wanted to forward this info to this list since I know that PRR had a
few ;^) of these engines.  I know that they are not available in PRR or
undecorated but they could be used for PRR units (may do some myself this
way).  Chat on another email list I have found out that if you use 91%
Isopropal alcohol it will take off all the paint and also dislodge the
glue that holds in the windows.

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "David R. Olsen" <drolsen@concentric.net>
To: "Diesel Modelers Mailing List" <dlist@hhcustom.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:59:35 -0500>
Subject: [D] Insider Info
Message-ID: <199812240138.UAA06588@hhcustom.hhcustom.com>

Hey everybody,
 
        Just wanted to let you all know that I was down at M. B. Klein in
Baltimore today and they are about to put out a mail order ad for P2K
GP9s
- $29.99.  I picked up a B&O today and plan to go back for the other
number
on Saturday - little Christmas present to myself.  I'm not gonna comment
on
whether or not LL should be dumping their excess GP9s, but I'm gonna
enjoy
the discount.  I'll probably get a couple to strip.  Roads I saw were
B&O,
RI, SCL, MILW, WP(? - maybe CB&Q? Something dark with 45 deg stripes on
the
hood ends) - I think these are second run.  No undecs, unfortunately. 
They
have a ton.  Just thought y'all'd like to know.  There goes that
Christmas
money,
 
                                        Dave Olsen
                                        Baltimore, MD for the Holidays
 



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 23:04:51 -0500
From: Dave Freshwater <dfresh20@erols.com>
Subject: [PRR] What Happened to the X-23 Campaign?

This was a big deal earlier in the year.  And I hadn't heard anything
lately.

Dave Freshwater
North Potomac, MD


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 01:46:37 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate

In a message dated 98-12-23 23:05:10 EST, you write:

<< DARN !!!  (Not what I really wanted to say.)  And I have to be living
 (read: existing) on the west coast instead of back in PA, so I can't get
 one.
  >>
Saw one tonight #513 they start at 500 It's really nice the sky was made
darker than the original for more contrast with the numbers on the plate. I
have a couple of application forms they say nothing about a no number plate .
If I hear anything I'll be sure to post it here. 
                                  Happy Holidays,  Ken McCorry

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "jbreon" <jbreon@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Models
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:09:17 -0500

      Hallmark was the first to import BP60s in brass. I don't believe that
Alco Models ever did. Overland did a run in the mid 1980's and then offered
them again about two or three years ago factory painted in the single stripe
and 5 stripe schemes. The painted ones were actually about $1800 for the
pair. The earlier run was only available unpainted and sold for about $600
per single unit.
      Both import runs (Overland's, not Hallmark's) operate nicely, but
there was a little too much of the model's weight supported by the lead and
trailing trucks, thus taking away traction from the drive wheels. Some
re-springing of these trucks and a little extra weight added inside the car
body and a pair of these will pull an 80 car freight train (equipped with
Kadee wheelsets) up a 1.2% grade. I know, I know, they are supposed to be on
the rear end pushing, but until I convert to DCC they tend to shove
everything onto the floor (not a pretty sight).

Jerry Breon

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Hoxie <steveh@dotstar.net>
To: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>; PRR-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Models


>Jerry--For PRR brass links you might try http://www.thecaboose.com ,
>http://www.caboosehobbies.com , http://brasstrains.com , and
>http://gunnings.com .  Along with Mitchells, that will give a good cross
>section of availability and prices.  Have fun.
>
>BP60 Centipedes were done by Alco Models.  Adequate models, but much gear
>noise.  If you can find a set, they will be more reasonably priced than the
>OMI models.
>
>Merry Christmas!
>Steve Hoxie
>Pensacola FL
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>
>To: PRR-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 8:29 AM
>Subject: [PRR] Brass Models
>
>
>>For vendor links on Keystone Crossings, can anyone provide links for
>>manufacturers or resellers of brass (new or used)?
>>
>>Also, for my own benefit, which brass manufacturer(s) produced BP60
>>Centipedes in HO?
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>>   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
>>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>>   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>>WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>>   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!
>>
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>>
>>
>
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:48:35 -0800
From: Frank Bagrash <fbagrash@fullerton.edu>
Subject: [PRR] Brass models

Hallmark did these in a couple of runs. One of the last runs was made by
Ajin.

Frank

--
Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D.                  714-278-2669
Department of Psychology                 714-278-7134 (Fax)
P.O. Box 6846
California State University
Fullerton, California 92834-6846
E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu
Boogie gently, babies



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR license plate
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 10:38:16 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/23/98 10:16 PM, ironhorse@sprintmail.com (ironhorse@sprintmail.com) 
wrote:

>DARN !!!  (Not what I really wanted to say.)  And I have to be living
>(read: existing) on the west coast instead of back in PA, so I can't get
>one.

Contact the musuem anyway. I believe out-of-staters can purchase 
non-registered plates for $15 or thereabouts.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Knepper" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] What Happened to the X-23 Campaign?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:08:23 -0500

Dave,
They still have not cashed my check ? From 5/29/98.!  Oh well.  But it
would be nice to know what is happening.

Merry Christmas
Bill

----------
> From: Dave Freshwater <dfresh20@erols.com>
> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: [PRR] What Happened to the X-23 Campaign?
> Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 11:04 PM
> 
> This was a big deal earlier in the year.  And I hadn't heard anything
> lately.
> 
> Dave Freshwater
> North Potomac, MD
> 
> 
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Models
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:08:59 -0600

Well, I blew that one.  Apologies to the Centipede fans.  Three or four
years ago I painted a set, and I was remembering the way they ran, not the
box they came in.  Must have been Hallmark.  Merry Christmas anyway.

Steve Hoxie
-----Original Message-----
From: jbreon <jbreon@email.msn.com>
To: PRR Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>; Stephen Hoxie <steveh@dotstar.net>
Date: Thursday, December 24, 1998 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Models


>      Hallmark was the first to import BP60s in brass. I don't believe that
>Alco Models ever did. Overland did a run in the mid 1980's and then offered
>them again about two or three years ago factory painted in the single
stripe
>and 5 stripe schemes. The painted ones were actually about $1800 for the
>pair. The earlier run was only available unpainted and sold for about $600
>per single unit.
>      Both import runs (Overland's, not Hallmark's) operate nicely, but
>there was a little too much of the model's weight supported by the lead and
>trailing trucks, thus taking away traction from the drive wheels. Some
>re-springing of these trucks and a little extra weight added inside the car
>body and a pair of these will pull an 80 car freight train (equipped with
>Kadee wheelsets) up a 1.2% grade. I know, I know, they are supposed to be
on
>the rear end pushing, but until I convert to DCC they tend to shove
>everything onto the floor (not a pretty sight).
>
>Jerry Breon
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stephen Hoxie <steveh@dotstar.net>
>To: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>; PRR-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 10:35 PM
>Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass Models
>
>
>>Jerry--For PRR brass links you might try http://www.thecaboose.com ,
>>http://www.caboosehobbies.com , http://brasstrains.com , and
>>http://gunnings.com .  Along with Mitchells, that will give a good cross
>>section of availability and prices.  Have fun.
>>
>>BP60 Centipedes were done by Alco Models.  Adequate models, but much gear
>>noise.  If you can find a set, they will be more reasonably priced than
the
>>OMI models.
>>
>>Merry Christmas!
>>Steve Hoxie
>>Pensacola FL
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>
>>To: PRR-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 8:29 AM
>>Subject: [PRR] Brass Models
>>
>>
>>>For vendor links on Keystone Crossings, can anyone provide links for
>>>manufacturers or resellers of brass (new or used)?
>>>
>>>Also, for my own benefit, which brass manufacturer(s) produced BP60
>>>Centipedes in HO?
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>>>   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
>>>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>>>   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>>>WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>>>   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
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From: Prr1187@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:53:02 EST
Subject: Re:  Re: [PRR] modeling towers

I have already built a pre- production PRR octagonal tower that is in the
process of being used to put out commercial kits using my and my partner's
laser.  
We recently acquired it and are working out some bugs.   We believe that the
problems have been solved because everything is working fine now.

We will be able to make several variations based upon customer demand.  I have
a photo available, which I have scanned and can e-mail to anyone interested.
Stay tuned for progress updates.

Thank you.
Dennis Sautters

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From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: [PRR] Water Towers
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:31:04 -0800

Did pennsy have a "standard" for water towers. One of the keystones had a
drawing of a wooden one. How about steel water tower?
Along that line how about the coaling towers. Did they have a standard
contractor...i.e. FM or what?

Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
Interested in any information or Photos of the Renovo Yards!!


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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:37:50 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Traffic in 1954
From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan)

A friend says that every movie he sees of a freight train in that period
of time always seems to have one Virginian hopper.

You've left out:
The Milwaukee Road (CMStP&P)
The Burlington Route (CB&Q)
Northern Pacific
Chicago & NorthWestern (C&NW/CStPM&O) 
Santa Fe
and a few smaller ones - 
Chicago & Eastern Illinois
Minneapolis & St. Louis
Ann Arbor
Toledo, Peoria & Western

All connected with the Pennsy except the NP, which did so through it's
subsidiary, the Burlington.
Pat Egan

On Tue, 22 Dec 98 15:38:02 -0500 Jerry <jerry@dsop.com> writes:
>Outside of the PRR, I am ignorant of the genealogical lineage of other 
>
>roads, not knowing what existed when, merged with whom when, etc.
>
>I'd like to know what roads I can/should include in my consists, 
>considering that I am modeling 1954.
>
>I am sure of these roads:
>     New York Central
>     Reading
>     Central of New Jersey
>     Maryland & Pennsylvania
>     Baltimore & Ohio
>
>What about these roads (based on available models):
>     Delaware & Hudson (D&H)
>     Lehigh & New England (LNE)
>     Seaboard Air Line (SAL)
>     Pittsburgh & Lake Erie
>     Norfolk & Western
>     Detroit Toledo & Ironton (DT&I)
>     Virginian
>     Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O)
>     Great Northern
>     Monon
>     Atlantic Coast Line (ACL)
>     Nickel Plate Road (NKP)
>     Wabash
>     D&RGW
>     Pere Marquette
>     MKT
>     Clinchfield
>     Western Maryland
>     Boston & Maine
>     Erie Lacakawana
>     Maine Central
>     Erie
>     Chicago Great Western
>
>Any others come to mind? Feel free to comment on car types and 
>relative 
>frequency.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
>   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
>   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
>   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!
>
>
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>
>

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From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: [PRR] O scale modelers
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:27:34 -0800

Are there any O scale modelers on this list, besides myself?

Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
interested in any photos or info on the Renovo Yards


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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 02:18:15 EST
Subject: [PRR] Twelve Railfan Days of Christmas

On the first day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
a widecab from GE.

On the second day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
two switch stands
and a widecab from GE.

On the third day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
three cross ties,
two switch stands,
and a widecab from GE.

On the foruth day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
four four eight fours,
three cross ties,
two switch stands,
and a widecab from GE.

On the fifth day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
five tons of coal.
Four four eight fours, three cross ties, two switch stands,
and a widecab from GE.

On the sixth day of Christmas a railfan gve to me, 
six switchers switching

On the seventh day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
seven trains a rolling

On the eighth day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
eight RALFers RALFing, *

On the ninth day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
nine cameras clicking

On the tenth day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
ten Geeps a chanting

On the eleventh day of Christmas a railfan gave to me, 
eleven horns a blowing

On the twelvth day of Christmas a railfan gave to me,
twelve miles of mainline,
eleven horns a blowing, 
ten geeps a chanting,
nine cameras clicking, 
eight RALFers RALFing,
seven trains a rolling,
six switchers switching,
five tons of coal,
four four eight fours, 
three cross ties,
two switch stands,
AND A WIDECAB FROM GE!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE FROM RICK ROWLANDS AND THE SOON TO BE RESTORED 97A.

*RALF stands for Railroad Artifact Liberation Front, an unwelcome and
destructive cult of the railfan population whose goal is to liberate anything
and everything that is not welded down or rolling at a high rate of speed.

P.S.  Have you ever met a railfan that gave ANYTHING away?

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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] SURVEY: Passenger Car Needs
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 23:12:49 -0600

Jerry--My desires for passenger cars:

1.  Baggage Mail--BM70m--see Keystone Spring 93

2.  Express Refrigerator--R50b

3.  8 section lounge--see Keystone Summer 89

4.  8 section - 5 double bedroom

5.  Cafe Coach--PC70

If you can handle another, #6 would be:

12 section-1 drawing room--this is the one produced by Rivarossi all these
years.  Would be nice to have this in 90's technology and with air
conditioning.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 02:20:25 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale modelers

In a message dated 98-12-24 22:05:01 EST, you write:

> Are there any O scale modelers on this list, besides myself?
>  
>  Greg Stone
>  PRRT&HS member
>  interested in any photos or info on the Renovo Yards

ME!

I've ran every type of Pennsy steam- on 1 1/4" track gauge that is.

Rick Rowlands

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:54:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

On Fri, 25 Dec 1998, Jerry wrote:

> It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list -- 
> what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject 
> matter)?

Nitpicker R Us: There are some non-Christians who celebrate Christmas
(though I'm not one)

My wife got me a Hallmark GG-1 ornament patterned after the Lionel GG-1
(guess that's why it wasn't 5 stripe... eh), and a stuffed locomotive from
the Island of Misfit Toys (remember Rudolph?)

Unrelated to Chirstmas, except that I happened to be in 2 or 3 shops 2
days ago since I actually had time off and hence time to shop (and
plastic, which is good since I spent all the real money on gifts:-) I
picked up a few of the new Bowser gons in SK, a new Bowser flat, and 4
C&BT boxes, which were sealed but claimed to be one each of SK{1,2{a,b}}.
They were, unfortunately they also have the molded on ladders.... And a
Detail Associates RS3 Hammerhead kit, for evaluation since I lack an
older-phase Stewart RS3 kit right now.

Merry Christmas

-D



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Subject: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 09:55:39 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list -- 
what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject 
matter)?

Happy Holidays!

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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From: Hal6963@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 11:10:17 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

In a message dated 12/25/98 10:26:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

<< It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list -- 
 what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject 
 matter)? >>

Proto 2000 Moore & Company Warehouse and a new Scanner

Harold
Modeling the Middle Division

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Subject: Re: [PRR] SURVEY: Passenger Car Needs
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 98 11:35:04 -0500

Jerry,
Since USP is filling almost all the streamlined needs
(http://usp.dsop.com/sides.html - but you knew that), my dreams tend toward the
heavyweights. Topping the list are two common P-70 rebuilds:

1: P70GS
2: P70K
3: 28-1 Parlor (Branchline may get around to this)
4: MP-54
5,6,7,8,9...  The whole Congressional!

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: [PRR] O scale steam/ modeling an earlier era
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 08:22:40 -0800

Ok, so we have a few O scalers out there. Do you guys ever see a D16 around?
I saw one that was owned by a club and obviously was not for sale. I wonder
if there would be a market for one.
     I often hear that most people model the 40's and 50's. I realize this
gives modelers the option to model diesel and steam. However I wonder, if
more were offered in earlier stuff, would we see more early 1900s modelers .
I would think that the 20's would be a neat era for pennsy modelers. After
all most of the common stuff was around by then i.e. A,B,C,D,E,F?,G,H,I, K,
L, M,N, classes. The Js (not pennsy design),
Q, and T are large engines especially in O scale. I wonder if the 20,s would
be a little easier to model then by virtue of the smaller engines.
    As for me modeling Renovo, I wonder just how often a J, Q, or T ran by
Renovo.
Modeling the earlier period would make some interesting mix of cars, wooden
truss underframes next to all steel cars. NC and ND cars would be more
common.
    Not much seems to be available on the change over from the earlier class
of engins to the standardized classes. For example does anyone know when the
last non-standardized class engine ran. Did an edict go out that all this
class should be retired by a certain date. ....like we know that steam was
gone on the pennsy in 1957.
    How about when was the last non steel underframe cars removed from
service, or the last non all steel passenger class. One of the Keystones
list the largest classes of freight cars numbers over several periods.
    Anyone else ever think along these lines in any scale or just for
historical sake?

Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:05:24 -0600
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?
From: locoshop@juno.com

Jerry et al,

Merry Christmas!!  My wife got a new P2K PRR GP7 for me.  Looks real
nice.

On Fri, 25 Dec 98 09:55:39 -0500 Jerry <jerry@dsop.com> writes:
>It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list 
>-- 
>what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject 
>
>matter)?
>
>Happy Holidays!
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
>"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
>     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
>-----------------------------------------------

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com
"Jesus is the reason for the Season"
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:52:36 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

In a message dated 12/25/98 9:26:31 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

<< It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list -- 
 what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject 
 matter)? >>

North Coast Engineering DCC starter pack and O. Winston Link's "The Last Steam
Railroad in America" (great book for those little details on a model rr).

Bob Zoeller
Fox Point, WI 

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From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" <lpmorgan@iquest.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] O scale modelers
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 11:53:04 -0500

I actually model 3 rail O Gauge. My space and fund are small enough I do
more 027.
My best guess is the 2 of you do 2-rail real scale.

I would still enjoy hearing about it.

Removenospam section from address when replying.
Larry Morgan

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of
TodEngine@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 25, 1998 2:20 AM
To: gas@fastinet.net; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale modelers


In a message dated 98-12-24 22:05:01 EST, you write:

> Are there any O scale modelers on this list, besides myself?
>
>  Greg Stone
>  PRRT&HS member
>  interested in any photos or info on the Renovo Yards

ME!

I've ran every type of Pennsy steam- on 1 1/4" track gauge that is.

Rick Rowlands

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" <lpmorgan@iquest.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 11:50:48 -0500

I have a new PRR Weaver U25b in 3 rail O Gauge, with sound system etc.
I have not yet tested.
I would like to know the year this engine first entered service.
Can anyone help?

Removenospam section from address when replying. 
Larry Morgan

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry
Sent: Friday, December 25, 1998 9:56 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?


It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list -- 
what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject 
matter)?

Happy Holidays!

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:37:13 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

Howdy All:

Santa's sled broke down at our house last night, he had to drop off a bit
more then he should have in order to get airborne again.   Unfortunately,
most of it wasn't train related.  He was kind enough to drop off all of John
Hahns' wonderful pictorials on PRR motive power.   What a loss to the Railfan
community that he passed on before he could complete the series - my sympathy
to his family for their untimely and early loss!   Alco made an appearance
with the delivery of a set of P2K PRR PA1's.   Bowser was on the list too,
but that delivery melted in the blaze at Rules'.   Santa also left a large HO
scale Die-cast pedestal boom crane.  The boom on this thing is almost 2 feet
long and it stands about 3 foot tall.

Joyous Noel

Cos
wsbcos.com

Jerry wrote:

> It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list --
> what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject
> matter)?
>
> Happy Holidays!
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
> "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
>      Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
> Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
> -----------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:33:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Ron Dugas <rond@efn.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

Hi All,

Well, due to budget, it wasn't under the tree. However in January
financial arrangements will be concluded and the PRR 3768 will be rolling
onto my division for permanent assignment. Should be beautiful at the head
end of my FOM set. 8) BTW, this loco is N-Scale.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, All,

Ron.


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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:12:39 -0500
From: Dan Cupper <dan@cwix.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

Jerry wrote:
> 
> what did everyone get (that pertains to our mutual subject
> matter)? Happy Holidays!


Season's greetings to Jerry and the list !

1. Hallmark GG1 ornament

2. PRR 1879 annual report (been around for 71 more Christmases than I
have).

3. Steam, Steel & Stars hardcover version


Dan


Dan Cupper
dan@cwix.com
For unto us a child is given . . . (G.F. Handel's Messiah is getting a
real workout in our CD player)

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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:06:53 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Twelve Railfan Days of Christmas

In a message dated 98-12-25 03:31:41 EST, you write:

<< 
 P.S.  Have you ever met a railfan that gave ANYTHING away?
  >>
****yeah, you met me...one of the reasons Many of Our Group are very sour on
"Museums", etc.
Me, Jim, Jeff, Walt, Paul, Rick, Steve, Ed and more all watched our Freely
donated quality RR stuff get:

Stolen / Sold off / Scrapped / Disappear.....from "museums"......

So it did not get to serve our wishes of being on display for others....sooo
sad.

Yer right, weld everything down !!!  Strange, alla my stuff came with
permission, if not outright assistance of RR folks !!! That bell was cut off
with help of shop foreman eport / cnj, and a road foreman of engines..!!!   We
got him one, and i got one fer helping !!!
 i stood by watching other things disappear while i was waiting to get them
honestly thru proper channels, so be it...such is life...

HEY...PLEASE get me my Christmas present...my E unit tape back !!??!! hahah,
I really do miss it, can do mile for mile memories of those cab
rides...Bill*/**

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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:59:09 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale modelers

***Hi, Greg - 

I am a former O scaler, still involved a little..Mostly G now.
.and there are others here that I know of....
Happy Holidays, Bill***

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From: Ljgurke@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 15:09:03 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

Wow, I must have been a real good boy this year!

My wife got me:  A 1999 PRR Calender, a copy of Black Gold, Black Diamonds,
AND a PAIR of E-R model RF-16 sharknoses!

To top it off, Dad (& Mom, though I know Dad picked it out) got me a Bowser
K-4 AND an I-1 (with superdetail kit!).  Hope we have a long, dark, cold,
snowy winter so I'm "stuck" indoors with plenty of time to put these together.

Best wishes to all for the New Year!

Mike


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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 15:40:12 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale modelers

And I am another.
	Steve Bartlett
	PRRTHS # 1969
Greg Stone wrote:
> 
> Are there any O scale modelers on this list, besides myself?
>

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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:19:36 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

In a message dated 98-12-25 10:26:31 EST, you write:

<< t's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list -- 
 what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject 
 matter)? >>
***Ummm, must have got the order number mixed up, ummm,,,, a NYC G GP7 in
lightning stripes.....someone is trying to , umm, convert me..??
Steve B, did you change my order at Charlie Ro...????   hahahha, Bill***

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From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 15:48:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale steam/ modeling an earlier era

In a message dated 98-12-25 12:02:00 EST, you write:

> Ok, so we have a few O scalers out there. Do you guys ever see a D16 around?
>  I saw one that was owned by a club and obviously was not for sale. I wonder
>  if there would be a market for one.
>       I often hear that most people model the 40's and 50's. I realize this
>  gives modelers the option to model diesel and steam. However I wonder, if
>  more were offered in earlier stuff, would we see more early 1900s modelers
.
>  I would think that the 20's would be a neat era for pennsy modelers. After
>  all most of the common stuff was around by then i.e. A,B,C,D,E,F?,G,H,I, K,
>  L, M,N, classes. The Js (not pennsy design),
>  Q, and T are large engines especially in O scale. I wonder if the 20,s
would
>  be a little easier to model then by virtue of the smaller engines.

We have an 11 stall roundhouse + 11 radius tracks that we could fill with
Pennsy steam, from A to Z.  All two rail.   As a matter of fact with the
Christmas holiday the engine facility is all filled up.

The J, Q and T are impressive in O scale.  The T slips just like the
prototype, so it is always seen doubleheaded with one of our four K4s on the
Broadway.

Anyone ever want to see our layout, just email me and we'll arrange it.  It is
the Youngstown Model Railroad Association in Youngstown, Ohio.

Rick

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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 15:20:39 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

A Hallmark GG-1!

Steve Bartlett

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From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: [PRR] RE: So what did everyone get.
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:47:29 -0800

No one ever knows what to get me for christmas. Blessed with a good job and
income I seem to already have most things I really want,   at least that
which anyone of my family can afford for a christmas present. I never really
expect to get anything I would really like; but,  rather I really enjoy
getting for others.
    However to my shock and surprise, my brother and sister in law got for
me a print of the Rockville bridge by George Losch. It is of an M1 crossing
the bridge with a line of freight cars, including an outside braced box car,
in tow. I can't believe they spent that much and thought of something I
would really like. Damn near brought a tear to my eye.
A merry Christmas indeed!!
    My daughter is 20 months old. She got a lot including a Sesame street
remote control train, Lionel Thomas the Tank engine, Annie and Clarabell,
Lionel Wiley coyote and Roadrunner acme car, Lionel Foghorn Leghorn chicken
stock car, and some Lionel Warner Bros and Disney Handcars. My nephew
recieved from his uncle and aunt (my wife and I), an Arestocraft G guage
little diesel swithcher and boxcar.....Pennsy of'course. Do you think 20
months old is too early to infect a child with the toy train virus?  Gee...
Is it fair to ask a jury of criminals if it is OK to be a criminal?
Hope you all have had a merry Christmas / Holiday Season.
Yours,
Greg Stone,
 Pennsy /Renovo Yards fan


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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 16:54:25 -0800
From: Mark Timmerman <mltimmerman@pol.net>
Subject: [PRR] ID another train bell

Can anyone ID this bell salvaged from the Altoona shops when scrapping
"Shifters" (switch engines?) some years ago?  It is Brass, weighs in at
34 lbs, is 9" tall, 11 and 15/16 wide, has  7/8" hole at the top through
which it was hung.  The inside includes paint overspray in CR blue. 
Markings were intentionally and partially ground off, but resembles:
                            8    11-8
                              -9-

The first 8 is faint and could actually be a 3, and heavy grinding
continues after that suggesting that there were more numbers before the
11-8.
Accompanying but not apparently original to that bell were CR blue
parts:
1) a clapper: Graham White double acting Salem 508 (or 506?)
2) an air piston that activates the clapper: Salem 506 Salem
   VA  part 1870
3) A cast metal bell suspension bracket not unlike that used to mount a 
   speed bag for boxers: 8044623A
   It bears this ID #       A
   On the side opposite this number is 55 located within a raised
oval      border.
   Four 9/16 threadless holes for rivets or bolts are in the corners,
   and a threaded 3/4 pipe from the center would allow the bell to
be       bolted on from beneath.
The owner works in the shops as did his uncle from whom he obtained the 
bell.  I didn't ask too many incriminating questions, thinking that 
disclosure of secrets might spoil my welcome.  Any estimation of what it
would have been on, and whether it would be PPR, PC, NYC or only CR?
A little dab of intrigue wrapped in a bit of history!  how common are
these former loco bells, and is there a cadre of collectors or a society
for brassophiles?  Thanks, Merry Xmas and happy Y2K upgrades, Mark.

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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 16:51:20 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale steam/ modeling an earlier era

Howdy All and Greg:

I don't know what Renovo looked like in the 20, but based on the power assigned
to the Central Region, Northern Division - Renovo Division by MP229 of 11/1/44,
I doubt that Q, S or T types ran in its direction.  Renovo was assigned the
following locomotives in 1944:

B6      1
B6s    5
B6sa  2
B6sb  3
C1     11
G5s    2
H6sb  3
H8sc  1
H9s    5
H10s  9
I1s      16
I1sa    35
K2s    1
L1s    18
N1s    1

a total of 113 engines.
My guess would be that Renovo was always assigned larger low speed engines.   I
would also guess that since the Renovo area was not a light weight track area,
but also not so broad curves as found on the Middle division or in western Ohio
- that the light or high speed stuff just wasn't needed.  Note all the C1's, and
two G5s's and those big H9s's and H10s's - big high axle load machines, outside
of the B6's the lightest thing there where the H6sb's.  The only D16sb on the
roster was the 1223 assigned to the Eastern Region, Southern Division - Delmarva
Division - they had some light branch lines and the like.

Cos
wsbcos.com

Greg Stone wrote:

> Ok, so we have a few O scalers out there. Do you guys ever see a D16 around?
> I saw one that was owned by a club and obviously was not for sale. I wonder
> if there would be a market for one.
>      I often hear that most people model the 40's and 50's. I realize this
> gives modelers the option to model diesel and steam. However I wonder, if
> more were offered in earlier stuff, would we see more early 1900s modelers .
> I would think that the 20's would be a neat era for pennsy modelers. After
> all most of the common stuff was around by then i.e. A,B,C,D,E,F?,G,H,I, K,
> L, M,N, classes. The Js (not pennsy design),
> Q, and T are large engines especially in O scale. I wonder if the 20,s would
> be a little easier to model then by virtue of the smaller engines.
>     As for me modeling Renovo, I wonder just how often a J, Q, or T ran by
> Renovo.
> Modeling the earlier period would make some interesting mix of cars, wooden
> truss underframes next to all steel cars. NC and ND cars would be more
> common.
>     Not much seems to be available on the change over from the earlier class
> of engins to the standardized classes. For example does anyone know when the
> last non-standardized class engine ran. Did an edict go out that all this
> class should be retired by a certain date. ....like we know that steam was
> gone on the pennsy in 1957.
>     How about when was the last non steel underframe cars removed from
> service, or the last non all steel passenger class. One of the Keystones
> list the largest classes of freight cars numbers over several periods.
>     Anyone else ever think along these lines in any scale or just for
> historical sake?
>
> Greg Stone
> PRRT&HS member
> interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards
>
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From: "Richard F. Makse" <rfm@twinney.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 17:19:19 -0500

My wife surprised me with a fully executed deed for the Middle Division!
What I treat! I get that big curved piece of track and all those extra
locomotives. Only bad thing is that the smell from those steam locomotives
masks the pleasant odor from the National Forest she bought me last year.
She knew I really had my heart set on electric trains so she had ordered the
Northeast Corridor for me. Darn! Those grinches at Amtrak wouldn't sell it
to her.

Oh well, Merry Christmas to everybody.

Bill Gates




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From: FRANKGARON@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 17:27:37 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale modelers

Getting back into having a layout after 15-20 years. I am having a heck of a
time deciding between scales:

Problem:
HO: Loads of brass PRR traction to buy (grew up at MP23, NY Div, I'm
addicted!)
S: Nice size, good PRR stuff around
O: Even bigger than S,  nice size to model, brings back childhood memories,
trains make good amount of noise when they go by.
G: Man, this stuff is a nice size! Can't find too much stuff that is scale
though. The rails on most G look like they are 2 feet thick! They did have a
nice PRR RS3 up at Highway Hobbies in Mahwah, NJ though. Tempting, very
tempting.

Solution: 

Model in HO (so I can have all my traction) AND O or G (so I can get the big
stuff too).

New problem:

Cash to pay for expensive tastes!!!!

Frank Garon
(still trying to find someone else intrested in running a 1" = 1" GG1 again!)

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From: "Bill Knepper" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: [PRR] (PRR) So What Did Everyone Get?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 18:28:02 -0500

Santa was a great guy this year........ 
(1) A pair of BP-20's from Miracle Castings,....... they will keep me busy
for awhile.
(2) A Brass M-1 from Sunset with the slotted pilot, and short tender.
(3) Various Craftsman kits, PRR of course.
(4) A  5' driver ( scale 80") for a live steam K4 ! ........ My nephew
wants me to get started on eather a K4 or K5, in live steam ? He is
building a Reading engine and wants some one to run with........We will
really have to think on this one !
(5) A bottle of Jack Daniel's

Going to need more of # 5 ......If I do # 4 !

Merry  Christmas to all, And a happy and blessed New Year.

Bill Knepper


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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 18:06:46 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

Yehhhhh... :-)))

	You were supposed to get one in N gage, of course.

Steve B.

PRRSignals@aol.com wrote:
>......................... 
***Ummm, must have got the order number mixed up, ummm,,,, a NYC G GP7
in
> lightning stripes.....someone is trying to , umm, convert me..??
> Steve B, did you change my order at Charlie Ro...????   hahahha, Bill***
>

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From: Da72jmk@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 19:27:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale modelers

I'm in O scale.  My primary interests are the northern end of the Elmira
Branch and the PRR's port operations.  No layout yet, but working on the track
plan.  John Keel

In a message dated 12/24/98 10:05:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Greg Stone
writes:

<<  Are there any O scale modelers on this list, besides myself? >>

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From: Da72jmk@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 19:57:38 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Towers

PRR had many standards for water towers.  The following information is from
the ICC PRR Lines East of Pittsburgh Type Book for Buildings circa 1920:

Wooden tanks were made of 3 inch white cedar staves and had 3 inch by 1/2 inch
steel hoops.  The roofs were octagonal witha sliding trap door.  They were
painted with 3 coats of white lead and oil paint.  A ladder made of 2 by 4's
ran from ground to roof and inside the tank.  Standard sizes were 8, 13, 16
1/2, 18 1/2, 22 1/2, and 25 feet in (outside) diameter.  The smallest three
sizes were 12 feet tall and the larger ones were 14 feet tall.  Capacities
were 3700, 10000, 15000, 23628, 35040, and 50000 respectively.  The type codes
were TW-4, TW-10, TW-15, TW-25, TW-35, and TW-50.

Wooden tanks were supported by either wooden frames or steel frames.  

Steel water tanks are listed in four sizes:  18, 20, 24, and 26 feet in
diameter.  The total height of these tanks is 22, 25, 26, 30 feet.  Capacities
were 35000, 50000, 75000, and 100000 gallons respectively.  The type codes
were TS-35, TS-50, TS-75, and TS-100.  Steel water tanks had steel ladders,
hemispherical bottoms and conical tops.  All steel work was painted 2 coats of
red lead and 1 coat of "specification" paint. 

This book supplies some other dimensions (but no pictures or plans,
unfortunately).  If someone wants to build a specific model, I would be happy
to supply additional info.  John Keel

In a message dated 12/24/98 10:04:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gas@fastinet.net writes:

<< Did pennsy have a "standard" for water towers. One of the keystones had a
 drawing of a wooden one. How about steel water tower? >>

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From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: [PRR] Trouble choosing scales?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 17:28:32 -0800

When I was little we had a Lionel train under the tree. As a teenager with
my brother we  modeled HO, then I broke off and did N guage. College years
ended all that,  especially since it took me 12 years to finally finish to
the point that I reached my ultimate career objective.
    When I got married I purchased a low end Lionel set for under the
Christmas tree. Darn thing had a catalog in it showing some scale size
pieces. This is where I believed I was infected with the bug, a lethal dose!
I collected scale size three rail but in the search for more prototypical
pieces of rolling stock of Pennsy stuff I met a 2 rail O scaler who slowly
persuaded me to cross the line into 2 rail. Unfortunately I am on the fence.
I still collect the scale size three rail steam engines because Lionel and
especially Mikes Train House do such a nice job. However I buy two rail
Pennsy steam engines and rolling stock, structures etc. This disease is
going to drive me to the poor house. My wife is extremely tolerant.
    I often slobber over all the pennsy HO stuff. What you guys can get in
plastic I have trouble finding even in brass. Brass is about all that is
truly prototypical. I chuckle when I see you guys complain about the cost of
HO stuff. Though I must admit the nicer brass steam engines are pushing
towards the cost of O scale. But then again O scale keeps getting higher and
higher. Overlands M1 was over $2,300. Passenger cars are $400 -$800  plus
each.
    The other thing I laugh at is you guys back east complaining about lack
of space for your HO layouts in your basements. Try thinking about an
O-scale layout in the garage in california.
    I am interested in hearing how your layered layout construction efforts
come out Jerry.
    Hope this wasn,t off the list topic too much but thought you HO guys who
think about larger scale might like a glimpse of what it is like on the
other side of the fence.

Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards


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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 21:17:14 -0500
From: "Michael M. Jackson" <mmjuscg@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

MTH RailKing K4 and passenger cars.  OK, 3 rail, not scale, but sounds great,
and the smoke unit just about set off our smoke alarm.  Looks great going
around the tree.

Mike




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From: RLCCR@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 21:29:07 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

It's beginning to look like a VHS Christmas!  

Under the tree:  Digital Image Works Pennsy Steam & Electric Years 1955-1964
Vol ll (covering Phi Region, Phi Term Div etc) & RR Video Productions PRR
Power Vol lll.    So far, only had a chance to view the latter....and enjoyed
every minute.  Thanks Santa!  Merry Christmas to all.     

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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 22:35:24 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR Christmas Pic

***Sorry, things bizzy, late on posting pix....for a nice PRR snow scene,
courtesy of RR Video / Walt Berko form his great PRR CD of 146 photos....

Take a peek at: htyp://members.aol.com/PRRSignals/PRR5769.jpg

It should be condensed enough to appear and download nicely !! 
My guess is a P&E / Northern Central location, does anyone recognize..??
Bill***

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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:07:16 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] SURVEY: Passenger Car Needs

I'll second the BM70 kit, although I think I need the k subclass for the Erie
to Harrisburg train.
On a related note was this train (571/572?) 2 seperate trains or was it one
that ran up and back. The few pictures I've seen do not claify this and since
I never saw the train myself any help on modeling it would be greatly
appreciated.
Brian C

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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:54:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 Ljgurke@aol.com wrote:

> Wow, I must have been a real good boy this year!
> 
> My wife got me:  A 1999 PRR Calender, a copy of Black Gold, Black Diamonds,
> AND a PAIR of E-R model RF-16 sharknoses!

Incidentally, I was very disappointed they opted not to do the 5 stripe
sharks (though that info was known for a while, it's just now since I have
one that it's again fresh in my mind)

I can decal the single stripe scheme myself, but the 5 stripe is much
harder...

Perhaps they'll get around to it before we get the B units...

-D



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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:12:31 -0600
Subject: [PRR] PRR GP-7 8512
From: locoshop@juno.com

Hello all,

As I had stated earlier, my wife got a P2K HO scale GP-7 road number
8512.  I am looking for some prototype information on this one.  I would
guess that P2K did their research on this one.  Does it have 48" dynamic
brake fan?  Is it equipped with dynamic brakes?  Also was this unit
equipped with trainphone antenna?  I do know that PRR had some units
without d/b, which units were they and were they for passenger service
only?

Thanks for any and all help.  It is much appreciated.

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com

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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 21:48:10 -0800
From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com
Subject: [PRR] So What Did You Get?

I also got a Hallmark GG-1.  But then too, I got an early Christmas
prezzy of 3 PRR P2K GP-7's a few weeks ago  :-)

Chuck Friedlein

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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 00:21:54 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] SURVEY: Passenger Car Needs

In a message dated 98-12-25 23:16:13 EST, you write:

<< On a related note was this train (571/572?) 2 seperate trains or was it one
 that ran up and back. The few pictures I've seen do not claify this and since
 I never saw the train myself any help on modeling it would be greatly
 appreciated. >>
 What era are you modeling  ? Depending on the era it ran Erie to Harrisburg
or Erie to Emporium where it connected with the Buffalo trains. 
                                                     Ken McCorry

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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 00:00:44 -0600
From: Ben Kroger <bkroger@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Thanks 

I just want to express my thanks to the PRR Talk bunch, which I think is
the best of the many lists to which I subscribe. I'm constantly amazed
at amount and quality of technical and historical expertise available at
the click of a mouse. I truly enjoy getting a little bit of the great
Pennsylvania Railroad in my inbox every day. Merry Christmas and Happy
New Year to all of ya'll!

Regards,

Ben Kroger
Dallas, Texas

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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 02:22:28 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7 8512

Howdy All:
The best that I can find - 8512 class ES15m, builders number 16767, built
8.1952.  Renumbered to 5892 class ERS15,  no dynamic brakes, twin 36 inch
cooling fans, no steam heat, Train phone antenna installed.  Made it to Penn
Central, was not included in the GP8 rebuild program - I have no information
on its disposition.

Cos
wsbcos.com

locoshop@juno.com wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> As I had stated earlier, my wife got a P2K HO scale GP-7 road number
> 8512.  I am looking for some prototype information on this one.  I would
> guess that P2K did their research on this one.  Does it have 48" dynamic
> brake fan?  Is it equipped with dynamic brakes?  Also was this unit
> equipped with trainphone antenna?  I do know that PRR had some units
> without d/b, which units were they and were they for passenger service
> only?
>
> Thanks for any and all help.  It is much appreciated.
>
> Jeremy Helms
> Omaha, Nebraska
> locoshop@juno.com
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
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From: "Rail Classics" <railclas@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 06:48:54 -0500
Subject: [PRR] 

Hello PRR Fans;

We at Rail Classics (www.railclassics.com) are looking for some information
in the way of drawings and photos for future PRR projects in "HO" scale
brass. We realize that there was more to the PRR than engines and rolling
stock. When I was connected with Railworks, we imported PRR steel water
tanks and PRR fence of which there was a great demand. Below are some
projects we are currently working on, that additional info would be of great
help.

PRR Wooden Water Tanks
PRR Elevated Crossing Sheds (East and Lines West types)
PRR Signal Bridges (East and Lines West types)
PRR Overhead Steam Loco Tender Watering Bridge
PRR Hand Cars

Anybody who has info on the above can e-mail us at railclas@erols.com

Thanks,
EDDY

P.S -  What did you guys think of our R-50b's, we just imported.


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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 07:54:21 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

I suppose I could also admit that I received, from  myself, an Atlas O
(2 rail, of course), PRR NW-8 switcher.  Nice, smooth, runs like a big
watch. 

	And I should not forget the O. Winston Link calendar of awesome black
and white N&W photos.  The joys of working from 4X5 and larger
negatives!!

Steve B

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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 07:47:07 -0500
From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Christmas Pic

Bill, 
	I think you have a ttpo in your URL for the pic
	And another hehe for Bill... :-)
	I don't suppose that is the big STRasburg brewery sign?  Can't be that
lucky.

Steve B.

PRRSignals@aol.com wrote:
> 
> ***Sorry, things bizzy, late on posting pix....for a nice PRR snow scene,
> courtesy of RR Video / Walt Berko form his great PRR CD of 146 photos....
> 
> Take a peek at: htyp://members.aol.com/PRRSignals/PRR5769.jpg
> 
> It should be condensed enough to appear and download nicely !!
> My guess is a P&E / Northern Central location, does anyone recognize..??
> Bill***
>

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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 20:45:00 +0000
From: "John H. Wright" <jhwright@jhwright.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

In message <914605585.2117350.0@dsop.com>, Jerry <jerry@dsop.com> writes
>It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list -- 
>what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject 
>matter)?
Merry Christmas to all.
A bit off topic but when we arose at the crack of noon today we found
our four cats had been having a great time with the parcels under the
tree, ripping open the presents and generally causing mayhem.  We had a
quick sort through and I discovered Santa had brought me an unusual pair
of slippers, one brown and one blue. Later on, when we tidied up
properly I was amazed to find he'd brought me an identical pair, but the
other way round. Most strange!

Since the incident of the Hornby Pullman car, twenty seven years ago to
the day, I haven't dared  let my wife  get  railway  presents.  But rest
assured that Santa's little helpers are busy with orders for PRR stuff
which should arrive soon in the New Year.  Some of it is for the Athearn
BS-12 that some of the folks here were kind enough to help me with.
When the alcoholic haze finally wears off sometime in January I hope to
get busy with it and will post a photo on the web site in due course.
Most of the turnouts are built for my new P:87 PRR freight yard layout,
more Scale Shops TOUs have been ordered and hopefully work will begin on
the baseboards as soon as the festive season (hic!) is over.

Regards,

-- 
John H. Wright

Visit the  Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's 
web site at:       http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm

Descriptions and views of our layouts in:
         Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge 
Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques,
model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events.

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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 08:03:20 -0600
From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd)
Subject: [PRR] Re: what did everyone get for christmas?

Well, if you will allow an historical sense - one year I got a lump of coal!

Story: about 10 years back, when I was living in California, I had a small
workshop set up in our 2 car garage.   To provide heat (yes, you do need
heat in Calif) I had a wood burning stove (no, not a D16).   This
absolutely fascinated my then-5 year old niece.

Well, a few days before Xmas, they were wondering around the store and she
spotted a stack of charcoal bags.   She immediately glommed onto one of
those for Uncle Bobbys fireplace - and that was my present from her that
year.

I suppose a bag of charcoal counts as a lump of coal?

Best regards to all,

Bob

Robert A. Boyd

========
Those Classic Trains
"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking"

"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service
http://www.thoseclassictrains.com
========



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From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" <lpmorgan@iquest.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] O scale modelers
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:33:32 -0500

I may not be the best person to address this problem, Frank, but you forgot
some  important  gauges. N and Z have their place. O scale (2 rail) is not
the same as O gauge (3 rail.

My wife does N gauge (1940 PRR) and PREWAR tinplate O Gauge 3 rail.
I do three rail O gauge 1930's in one room and 1950's in another. We will
probably buy a Z gauge set to take when traveling. We have plans to do an
outdoor G gauge as well.

We found HO took as much room as O gauge 3 rail. It was scale size and real
looking, but not as much fun (at least to us). Even worse, purchasing an HO
set for my son failed to infect him with the toy/model train virus. What an
expensive mistake! Now that he is grown, it is something we could have
shared.

Hence the move to N gauge for real scale and the resurrection of my old
Lionel PRR S2 turbine.

Finances are a constant problem.

We just love toy trains.

Removenospam section from address when replying.
Larry Morgan

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of
FRANKGARON@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 25, 1998 5:28 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale modelers


Getting back into having a layout after 15-20 years. I am having a heck of a
time deciding between scales:

Problem:
HO: Loads of brass PRR traction to buy (grew up at MP23, NY Div, I'm
addicted!)
S: Nice size, good PRR stuff around
O: Even bigger than S,  nice size to model, brings back childhood memories,
trains make good amount of noise when they go by.
G: Man, this stuff is a nice size! Can't find too much stuff that is scale
though. The rails on most G look like they are 2 feet thick! They did have a
nice PRR RS3 up at Highway Hobbies in Mahwah, NJ though. Tempting, very
tempting.

Solution:

Model in HO (so I can have all my traction) AND O or G (so I can get the big
stuff too).

New problem:

Cash to pay for expensive tastes!!!!

Frank Garon
(still trying to find someone else intrested in running a 1" = 1" GG1
again!)

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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:20:47 -0500
From: "Wayne S. Betty" <wsbcos@cris.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7 8512

Howdy All:
Jeremy, my apoligies for not including all the information that you needed in my
first reply.
All of PRR class ES-15m where delivered without dynamic brakes.  Numbered in the
following groups 8502 to 8512, 8545 to 8550, 8554 to 8582 and 8797 to 8806.
Class ES-15ms 8500 & 8501, 8551 to 8553 and 8583-8587.  m = multiply unit and s
= steam heat,  Class ES-15ms had its air tanks on their roof - "torpedo tanks".
Renumbered 5950 to 5959 class ERS15s.  ES-15m units renumbered 5840 to 5899 with
new class ERS15.  All delivered in DGLE with black underframes and trucks, set
up for long hood forward operation.

Cos
wsbcos.com

Wayne S. Betty wrote:

> Howdy All:
> The best that I can find - 8512 class ES15m, builders number 16767, built
> 8.1952.  Renumbered to 5892 class ERS15,  no dynamic brakes, twin 36 inch
> cooling fans, no steam heat, Train phone antenna installed.  Made it to Penn
> Central, was not included in the GP8 rebuild program - I have no information
> on its disposition.
>
> Cos
> wsbcos.com
>
> locoshop@juno.com wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > As I had stated earlier, my wife got a P2K HO scale GP-7 road number
> > 8512.  I am looking for some prototype information on this one.  I would
> > guess that P2K did their research on this one.  Does it have 48" dynamic
> > brake fan?  Is it equipped with dynamic brakes?  Also was this unit
> > equipped with trainphone antenna?  I do know that PRR had some units
> > without d/b, which units were they and were they for passenger service
> > only?
> >
> > Thanks for any and all help.  It is much appreciated.
> >
> > Jeremy Helms
> > Omaha, Nebraska
> > locoshop@juno.com
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 10:16:19 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: what did everyone get for christmas?

Bob wrote this...see my responce below......

t 08:03 AM 12/26/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Well, if you will allow an historical sense - one year I got a lump of coal!
>
>Story: about 10 years back, when I was living in California, I had a small
>workshop set up in our 2 car garage.   To provide heat (yes, you do need
>heat in Calif) I had a wood burning stove (no, not a D16).   This
>absolutely fascinated my then-5 year old niece.
>
>Well, a few days before Xmas, they were wondering around the store and she
>spotted a stack of charcoal bags.   She immediately glommed onto one of
>those for Uncle Bobbys fireplace - and that was my present from her that
>year.
>
>I suppose a bag of charcoal counts as a lump of coal?
>
>Best regards to all,
>
>Bob
>
>Robert A. Boyd
>
>
 Hi....

  Hmmmmm i did'nt get anything railroady for Christmas (been really bad
  i'm in a Chapter 13 bankruptcy you know)...but this note of yours
  reminded(reminds) me of two things.
  
  One is from childhood....
  The house my grand parents had up in Baltimore had steam heat...it had a
  coal fired boiler-furness. I remember many times going to the house
  on visits and seeing the coal down stairs near the furness.I remember it
  was a bit larger than "lump" coal.It was probably delivered from a
  local dealer that in turn got it delivered by the railroad,most likely
  by the prr since they delivered Hard Anthrice(sp?)to Baltimore.Some
  times i would take a piece of it home with me. I can also remember
  grandma having to "fire" it ...with grandpa smoking his pipe and
  watching TV upstairs....(i guess he made himself "engineer" sometimes...
  well he had senority ..he was older than her.)

  The second thing is that...well if i want railroad coal...all i have
  to do is drive about one mile south to Norfolk Southern's main (Norfolk
  to Petersburg Va.) I live in Suffolk Va. A short walk along the tracks
  here (which we can do in parts of Suffolk as it runs thru the middle
  of town and is not fenced)will produce enough coal that i can take back
  home and crush up for a dozen or so H.O. hopper loads in about five
  minutes time of searching. NS's hoppers more often than not are
  well loaded and as they pass thru , bits of coal will sometimes roll
  off on to the right of way. Sure makes modeling easier.(well almost
  i still gotta crush it to scale size)but the price is right.


                                         Til Later
                                         Hank Mummert


                                   


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Subject: [PRR] What I didn't get for Christmas
From: fredrea@juno.com (Fred G Rea)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:10:06 EST

Hearing all you guys talk about your holiday acquisitions takes me back
many decades.  My paternal Grandmother always said if I was not a good
boy all I would get was coal and switches.  Since my pre-War Lionels were
hauling marbles and  I only had one pair of switches,  it sounded like a
fairly good deal.  She never came trough! The price of virtue I guess.

All was not lost.  Several years later my maternal grandfather did give
me a bag of anthracite nuggets.  Over scale but I was hauling the real
stuff.

When relating this story to my two young sons a few years ago I got blank
looks.   I was astounded that neither really knew what coal is.  They had
 never seen nor touched any.


Fred Rea 
PRRT&HS

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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:18:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Nelson <rcnelson@bright.net>
Subject: [PRR] What did we get?

Well, not being on of the non-Christians that were refered to in the opening
message of this thread, I guess the first thing I must say is I recieved the
gift of Jesus.

One the railroad side, I got a trainline GP9 and Peter Maiken's "Night
Trains" about the Pullman System.

Also, wife and I bought a camcorder, so train watching should take on a new
front next year.

Hope the new year finds all on the list in good health and with those they love.

Rick Nelson, W8PRR


Luke 4:4


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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 15:08:18 EST
Subject: [PRR] A Challenge.  A Contest.  Correcting PRR Freight Car Schemes

Jerry,
I thought the PRR-Talk crew were bold and fearless nit-pickers, and real
sticklers for getting the facts straight.  But I count at least seven items in
the Keystone Crossings Freight Car pages that should have drawn comments by
now and been corrected.  

I challenge the readers of PRR-Talk to find and post as many
corrections/improvements as they can by Tuesday, December 29 at 6 PM.  The
text and the model pictures are both fair game, and you can refer to any books
or magazine articles as long as you cite them.  You can also cite photos you
may have collected.  In the spirit of a contest, you can post each suggestion
as early as you find it, and may improve later with another posting.  I'll
collate these postings, add any comments I might make, and post results to
PRR-Talk on New Year's Eve.

Happy Holidays
Rick Tipton  

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 15:49:18 -0500
From: "David J. Wartell" <djwartel@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

Being a non-Christians, however I am married to one and I get to celebrate
the best of both worlds. I received a framed copy of Alvin Staufer's M1a
drawing. It will look great in the train room.


>It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list --
>what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject
>matter)?
>

Dave  Wartell
djwartel@ix.netcom.com



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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: [PRR] Gauge vs Scale
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 18:25:15 -0500


>>Dear Larry and Phyllis,


I tried to send you this message directly, and received two failure to
deliver notices indicating that your posted address did not exist.(???) So I
am posting it @ PRR-Talk in hopes that you see it.

>>
>>Please take this as a friendly comment and not a criticism. You have
>managed
>>to hit one of my hot buttons and is a trap that many modelers fall into.
>>Many people use the word gauge incorrectly. Gauge is the distance between
>>running rails which in the US is 4' 8 1/2", sometimes referred to as
>>standard gauge. Anything smaller is narrow gauge (e.g, D&RGW) and anything
>>larger is broad gauge (e.g., BART). G, O, S, OO, HO, TT, N and Z (and
>others
>>I may have missed) are not gauges they are scales in which the gauge is
>>modeled. This statement is not precisely correct but in theory standard
>>gauge in any scale measures out at 4' 8 1/2". I though it interesting that
>>the Subject: was O SCALE, which is right on.
>>
>>Al



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From: STEVEGG1@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 19:08:55 EST
Subject: [PRR] So, what did you get

Greetings all,
My wife got me a 2 PRR tote bags. Very nice. Come in handy for train chasing.
Hope everyone had a good Christmas
Steve

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Subject: Re: [PRR] A Challenge.  A Contest.  Correcting PRR Freight Car
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 19:54:06 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/26/98 3:08 PM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote:

>I thought the PRR-Talk crew were bold and fearless nit-pickers, and real
>sticklers for getting the facts straight.  But I count at least seven 
>items in
>the Keystone Crossings Freight Car pages that should have drawn comments by
>now and been corrected.  
>
As the author of these pages, I wish it to be known that I am not 
offended by this challenge. I am a layperson in the ways of freight 
operations -- perhaps more knowledgable than "novices" on the list, but 
definitely bowing to those in the know. Consider my site as a mechanism 
for dispersing information -- hopefully correct -- rather than one 
person's view.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 19:57:15 -0500
From: John W Rosenbauer <jlrosennospam@wpa.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: what did everyone get for christmas?



bubbles@visi.net wrote:
 The second thing is that...well if i want railroad coal...all i have

>   to do is drive about one mile south to Norfolk Southern's main (Norfolk
>   to Petersburg Va.) I live in Suffolk Va. A short walk along the tracks
>   here (which we can do in parts of Suffolk as it runs thru the middle
>   of town and is not fenced)will produce enough coal that i can take back
>   home and crush up for a dozen or so H.O. hopper loads in about five
>   minutes time of searching. NS's hoppers more often than not are
>   well loaded and as they pass thru , bits of coal will sometimes roll
>   off on to the right of way. Sure makes modeling easier.(well almost
>   i still gotta crush it to scale size)but the price is right.

Reminds me of a story an older gentelman told of his days growing up near
Latrobe. He and his friends would climb onto loaded hoppers coming off the Unity
branch to throw coal off. They would then pick it up and take it home to provide
heat. This was during the depression. Kind of makes you glad to be living now
instead of "the Good Old Days".

Have fun,

J.W.Rosenbauer


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 18:39:54 -0600
From: Greg Johnson <gjohn195@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: So what did everyone get.

Greg Stone wrote:
> 
> No one ever knows what to get me for christmas. Blessed with a good job and
> income I seem to already have most things I really want,   at least that
> which anyone of my family can afford for a christmas present. I never really
> expect to get anything I would really like; but,  rather I really enjoy
> getting for others.
>     However to my shock and surprise, my brother and sister in law got for
> me a print of the Rockville bridge by George Losch. It is of an M1 crossing
> the bridge with a line of freight cars, including an outside braced box car,
> in tow. I can't believe they spent that much and thought of something I
> would really like. Damn near brought a tear to my eye.
> A merry Christmas indeed!!
>     My daughter is 20 months old. She got a lot including a Sesame street
> remote control train, Lionel Thomas the Tank engine, Annie and Clarabell,
> Lionel Wiley coyote and Roadrunner acme car, Lionel Foghorn Leghorn chicken
> stock car, and some Lionel Warner Bros and Disney Handcars. My nephew
> recieved from his uncle and aunt (my wife and I), an Arestocraft G guage
> little diesel swithcher and boxcar.....Pennsy of'course. Do you think 20
> months old is too early to infect a child with the toy train virus?  Gee...
> Is it fair to ask a jury of criminals if it is OK to be a criminal?
> Hope you all have had a merry Christmas / Holiday Season.
> Yours,
> Greg Stone,
>  Pennsy /Renovo Yards fan
> 
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I got an interesting two part gift from my brother. Part one was a P1K
PRR F unit with a note advising me that if I didn't know how to operate
the locomotive, I soon would. Part two was a vintage EMD F-3 operators
manual.

Regards,

Greg Johnson
Modeling Pittsburgh in 1968, in Houston in 1998

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 19:37:31 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: SAL cars on the Pennsy

In a message dated 12/26/98 12:05:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Stuthayer
writes:

> Guys,
>  
>  I just got the SAL Freight and Passenger car book for Christmas, and I have
> made an interesting discovery while reading through the first part of the 
> boxcar section.  There were a lot of SAL cars up on the Pennsy.  In fact, on
> page 51 there is a beautiful picture of a 40' PS-1 with double doors at 
> Columbus in 1969.  Does that peak your interest Rick?  Anyway, I see that we
> need to build a fair amount of SAL cars for our respective layouts.  Me, 
> because I am modeling part of the Cincy gateway, and the PRR was the second 
> largest interchange partner the L&N had.  So I could theoretically see a
fair 
> amount of SAL traffic go that way.  Maybe I am stretching it a little hear. 
> What do you think?
>  
>  Stuart
Stu,
I know you, and you don't need anybody's permission to run amok <G>.  My one
suspicion is that at the Cincinnati gateway, you'd see at least as much ACL as
you would SAL.  This might be wrong, but I'm reasoning from:
- L&N an ACL affiliate and traffic ACL-Atlanta-L&N-Cincinnati-PRR etc.
- ACL traffic reaching Cincinnati via ACL-Spartanburg-Clinchfield-Elkhorn
City-C&O-Cincinnati-PRR etc.
- closest SAL interchange point to PRR east-west traffic is SAL-Richmond-RF&P-
Potomac Yard-PRR.
However, the above is theory.  If the cars were seen in Columbus, you can't be
sure they didn't pass through Cincinnati.

As always, each of us is the arbiter of what picture we will paint with the
car fleet on our model railroads.  Most PRR layouts are dressed in east-west
cars, in "home road only," or in the ever-popular "oneofeachee."  The whole
orientation of your pike is north-south, so why wouldn't you accentuate the
southern railroads at the Cincinnati gateway?

It's important to remember that the bulk of in-service freight car pictures
were taken by a small number of individuals.  More specifically, we know that
a lot of interesting cars passed through Columbus on the PRR in the 60s,
because of Paul Winters and just a few others who cared enough to shoot the
passing parade of freight cars there, in color.  If it wasn't for these guys,
we'd be stuck with nothing but builder's photos, which often show things "not
true in the real world," and are less suggestive of where cars were actually
used.  

Needless to say, the pictures they took is one of the things I'm thankful for
this Christmas. 

Enjoy your book (and give our best to Yvonne).  I would love to understand the
succession of paint schemes on SAL and ACL freight equipment, but haven't
found any good articles yet that explain and illustrate this history.  I'll
bet the book you have in hand is 'way ahead of where I am on these two roads.

Rick Tipton    

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:24:59 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Southern freight


 Hi guys....

  Rick Tipton sent a e-mail out noting SAL traffic on lines west.
  My layout being a north-south line and not too far from where Pot Yard
  was...has some southern road freight cars...SAL,SOU,N & W,C & O,Virginian
  etc. So at least on my layout there is some prototypical interchange.
  Have fun you all...

                                         Til Later
                                         Hank Mummert


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Knepper" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] What did we get?
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:21:16 -0500

Rick, 
Sounds like you got the best gift!

----------
> From: Rick Nelson <rcnelson@bright.net>
> To: prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: [PRR] What did we get?
> Date: Saturday, December 26, 1998 1:18 PM
> 
> Well, not being on of the non-Christians that were refered to in the
opening
> message of this thread, I guess the first thing I must say is I recieved
the
> gift of Jesus.
> 


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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:06:32 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

Jerry wrote:
> 
> It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list --
> what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject
> matter)?
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> 

On a tight budget (though you couldn't tell by the haul my daughters got
:-) ), I got a P1K F3.  Question: Did F3s have Blomberg trucks?  They're
always raving about Athearn's Blomberg's on rec.models.railroad, and the
truck detail is a weak spot on the P1K's.  If so, who sells Athearn
parts mail order?  Thanks.
-- 
Jerry Shickler
e-mail: geshick@velocity.net

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From: Da72jmk@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:15:02 EST
Subject: [PRR] G22 Article in The Keystone

I understand that issue Vol. 13 No. 3 of The Keystone has an article about the
G22 gondola.  Does anyone have a copy they would be willing to copy or scan
for me?  Unfortunately, my membership only goes back to Volume 21.  Thank you.

John Keel 

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Subject: [PRR] RESULTS: Passenger Car Survey
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 98 21:07:35 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

The third in our series of surveys on "PRR-Talk" dealt with passenger 
cars (including head end equipment). There were 17 respondents of 280+ 
subscribers. Here are the results. Where a request was made and a 
solution is already available, I have made a notation in ALL CAPS.

The winner, no contest, was the R50B reefer. Come on, someone make us a 
fleet!

HO SCALE:

R50b - 6 votes
     * Red Caboose quality/price point desired
     * need a fleet of these!
     * need almost as many as X29's
REA 50 ft steel express reefer -- 1 vote
     * either riveted or welded
BM85a -- 1 vote
BM70ka -- 2 votes
BM70M -- 1 vote
BM70 -- 1 vote
B70 -- 3 votes
PL85 - Baggage/Lounge/Bar (lightweight) -- 1 vote
     * sides acceptable
P54 commuter coach -- 1 vote
     * in plastic, so I can afford a bunch of them.
PC70 cafe coach -- 2 votes
P70-bfR -- 1 vote
     * with correct trucks - I need a fleet of about 21 cars,
     No.s 1600-1755 with correct trucks -PRR Power III page 378
P70GS -- 1 vote
P70K -- 1 vote
P85B (or P85BR)cars ? No.s 4100-4169 (PRR) or 4068-4091 (ACF) -- 2 votes
     * complete car, not just sides,but could be a flat kit
     SEE UNION STATION PRODUCTS!!!
P85BR -- 1 vote
PS21 - "Inn" series 21 roomette -- 2 votes
     * built by Budd, smooth side, fluted roof
     * sides acceptable
PS31L No.s 8120-8128 " Colonial" cars -- 1 vote
     SEE UNION STATION PRODUCTS!!!
PS106 - 10 Roomette-6Double bedroom "Rapid" Series -- 1 vote
     * MANY OF THESE ARE AVAILABLE
MP85(B/C)E1-TC  "Silverliners"  -- 2 votes
     * No.s 201 to 219 and 251 to 269 
MP54 -- 2 votes
MP54E2-TC -- 1 vote
MPB54 -- 1 vote
     * only 3 cars in this class - not the baggage/mail trailers
? - 14 section (heavyweight)  -- 1 vote
     * used as dorm on 1954 Liberty Limited
     * sides acceptable
6-6 "poplar" heavyweight cars -- 4 votes
     * with round roof...not flat ended
     * would appeal to Milwaukee (Olympian, Olympian
     Hiawatha, Columbian - all the same 6 cars), 
     NP (North Coast Limited), CB&Q (had lots of them), 
     and certainly other roads.  Ought be a fairly
     popular car.  I expect Branchline will be working 
     on this in HO along
     with other varieties of sleeper useful to SPFs.
     * rebuilt as a betterment car.
3-6 "square" heavyweight cars -- 1 vote
28 seat-1dr-parlor heavyweight cars -- 2 votes
     * BALD EAGLE, GROVE, etc.
Parlour/Solarium heavyweight such as 'Trimount' (7033) -- 1 vote
8 section lounge with A/C -- 2 votes
     * ala 1950's as used on Southland, Dominion, etc.
     * see Keystone Summer 89
8 section/5 double bedroom -- 2 votes
     * 1950's usable
10-1-2 Heavyweight sleeper -- 1 vote
12-1 Heavyweight sleeper -- 2 votes
"Queen Mary" P74 variant -- 1 vote
D70 modernized -- 1 vote
D78 modernized -- 1 vote
     * any subclass, which would be usable on many trains
Twin unit diners -- 1 vote
     SEE UNION STATION PRODUCTS!!!
B74B horse-express car -- 1 vote
     * BCW kit  type OK
PS105 - "Eagle" blue/grey livery for joint MoPac service -- 1 vote
     * rtr
PS106 - "Texas Special" red/silver livery for joint MKT service -- 1 vote
     * rtr
The four fluted side car types  (bag-lounge, diner, coach, 
     and observation) that make up the "South Wind" 
     (flat car kits OK, as long as all parts fit) -- 1 vote
1952 Congo cars (any including coffee shop diners) -- 1 vote
PRR Brill gas-electrics -- 1 vote
     * Maybe even to fit Bachmann chassis)
Pre and post WWII Broadway Limited consists -- 1 VOTE
     * NOTED HERE BECAUSE IT IS A VAGUE REEQUEST
The whole Congressional -- 1 vote

"Other Needs" notes:
* It would be nice if Eastern Car Works did an older heavyweight core it 
that would be adaptable to the car sides concept that works so well for 
the later pre-war and post-war cars.

* Parts to modify Bachmann P-70 ,PB-70,D-78 cars (for Bachmann cars only) 
mostly the P-70 though. Hey Bachmann...sell your trucks separate! ya hear?


-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:54:30 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Gauge vs Scale

In a message dated 98-12-26 19:22:30 EST, you write:

<< may have missed) are not gauges they are scales in which the gauge is
 >>modeled. This statement is not precisely correct but in theory standard
 >>gauge in any scale measures out at 4' 8 1/2". I though it interesting that
 >>the Subject: was O SCALE, which is right on.
 >>
 >>Al
  >>
*******ahhhhhhh, ONLY if you are a Proto-48 member..!!!! Otherwise, gauge does
NOT agree with scale, a very big O Scale dividing point...ask steve grabowski
and steve bartlett..??!!!...Bill***

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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:38:07 -0600
From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd)
Subject: [PRR] minerology 101

Fred Rea commented:

>When relating this story to my two young sons a few years ago I got blank
>looks.   I was astounded that neither really knew what coal is.  They had
> never seen nor touched any.

=====

Reminds me of an incident that happened about 4-5 years ago here in St.
Louis.   At the time, I was a member of a live steam club and did a regular
bit where I talked to small kids about steam locomotives.

Well, one day, I was talking to this 5-6 year old; showed him a flat, plam
sized piece of coal and asked "Now, do you know what this is?"

His reply:  "Steak!"   (hmmm - -)

Bob

Robert A. Boyd

========
Those Classic Trains
"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking"

"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service
http://www.thoseclassictrains.com
========



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From: Ogarasteam@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:11:50 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?

A Baldwwin Lima Center Cab Transfer Unit made by HobbyTown of Boston.  It runs
great and looks good on the clubs modular units at our XMas show.
Joe O
ogarasteam@aol.com

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:37:01 EST
Subject: [PRR] SAL cars on the Pennsy

Re this post, in a different era, it gives us SPFs an excuse to run a few of
those beautfiul Westerfield ventilated boxcars of ACL, etc. However, project
119 on the list of things to build.

Bob Zoeller

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From: "Andrew Harmantas" <frisco484@hotmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] scale coal
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:18:45 PST


t...well if i want railroad coal...all i have>
>>   to do is drive about one mile south to Norfolk Southern's main 
(Norfolk>>   to Petersburg Va.)>>   of town and is not fenced)will 
produce enough coal that i can take back>> home and crush up for a dozen 
or so H.O. hopper loads in about five
>>   minutes 
______________________
Be careful.  I've heard that real coal is not suited for model coal.  It 
contains contaminants that can be corrosive over time.  To say nothing 
of the scale coal dust as your unit trains run around your layout.

'py new year,
Andrew Harmantas, kitbashing from the port city of Newport News, 
Virginia.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:43:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PRR] MO tower

Hey gang,
Just had a wild idea that I shared with a friend
and we feel it worthy of mentioning.
Didn't the town of Cresson install a foundation/slab by the railfan area
in preparation for MO to be relocated for
preservation?  Even though MO was structurally poor and had to be
destroyed
what is preventing it from being built anew?
If we as a group each put up  25.00 X 280
(list members.  Is that right Jerry?)  would
definately cover materials if not the 
entire construction costs.  Considering donatins from local
establishments, it is not a far
fetched or unattainable endeavor.  All
we would be doing is replacing a rotted
structure with a new one.  I'm sure someone got
drawings and measurements for modeling purposes so lets model it  12" to
the foot
scale.  (Not guage.  haha)
Any takers?
Rich


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Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:03:15 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] MO tower


 Hi....

  I feel that it would be worthwhile....but you'll have to get a decent
  reliable list of folks...then conferm that you'll get the donations.
  I'd also try to use as much as any saved material from MO as possible.
  Maybe even find out where they took the scrap wood and see if there is
  any trim or smaller pieces of wood you could get out of what was
  scrapped. From what i have read....MO would have been a sizable restoration
  job anyway. Also if no one has plans for it...perhaps there is a sister
  tower still standing that measurements (or maybe even materials)
  could be used in reconstuction. Also see if any retired or current
  Conrail employees would like to help...If you keep at it and get the
  ball rolling it can be done...but you have to be persistant.

  While were on restorations....Any one know what this 1890's passenger
  car is that was mentioned in the current issue of the Keystone
  where they are talking about the H-21 ? Its amazing sometimes what
  can be found....Gives one hope still that there is steam out there
  somewhere that no ones knows about....As a matter of fact...I heard
  this last week at work from a co-worker that he has a hunting buddy
  that knows of a steamer in some woods that was abandoned ...its also
  near a old R of W of a small former short line on a hill...so its
  possible that it was left there as being easier than scrapping it
  out right. It might be that its in a very unaccessible area too.
  So these things can happen. Remember we have two Pennsy engines today
  that at one time we thought were'nt even in existance...and one runs.

  This gets me to another string....besides engines we know of....
  what about engines that ended up as boilers....where the boiler was
  taken off the frame...or a engine frame thats around with out a boiler.
  Theres a engine here in Virginia...but its buried in a hill in
  Richmond. Things like that.


                                      Til Later
                                      Hank Mummert

                                     
                                      


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From: "Bill Knepper" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:54:59 -0500

Rich,
Good idea BUT !   ..............  We tried that with the X-23 project and
only got about 10 or 12 people to send there checks !  Granted a whole
bunch were interested, and Mark pulled it together............But     
NOT-ENOUGH-CHECKS !

  Good Luck.......
Bill
----------
> From: RICHARD ADER <RLA0220@webtv.net>
> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: [PRR] MO tower
> Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 12:43 PM
> 
> Hey gang,
> Just had a wild idea that I shared with a friend
> and we feel it worthy of mentioning.
> Didn't the town of Cresson install a foundation/slab by the railfan area
> in preparation for MO to be relocated for
> preservation?  Even though MO was structurally poor and had to be
> destroyed
> what is preventing it from being built anew?
> If we as a group each put up  25.00 X 280
> (list members.  Is that right Jerry?)  would
> definately cover materials if not the 
> entire construction costs.  Considering donatins from local
> establishments, it is not a far
> fetched or unattainable endeavor.  All
> we would be doing is replacing a rotted
> structure with a new one.  I'm sure someone got
> drawings and measurements for modeling purposes so lets model it  12" to
> the foot
> scale.  (Not guage.  haha)
> Any takers?
> Rich
> 
> 
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Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 20:08:28 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/27/98 6:45 PM, Andy Cich (ajc5150@net66.com) wrote:

>Jerry, I just returned from my Christmas trip and read through about 90
>messages, and didn't see where you mentioned what you got!  I know,
>you've been busy tabulating the passenger survey results. <g>

Well, guess you didn't get caught sleeping in gradeschool, eh?

Over the past year I have entered the model railroad business as a 
division of my existing company, as many of you know. Well, it doesn't 
make much sense for me to ask for railroad things that people can buy 
mail order and pay more for what I can get it for myself at 
wholesale...although many times (P2K, for example) they're about one and 
the same!

What I did get is a gift certificate for Home Depot (lumber) and a gift 
certificate for a local art shop. The latter has a series of vintage b/w 
photos of Harrisburg. I've been adding one a year to my office wall. Have 
two (front and rear) of the Harrisburg station shortly after it opened. 
Just need to go pick one out now.

However, late Christmas Eve I was approached by an elf in need of 
stucking stuffers. The call was for two freight car kits... so I selected 
two Red Caboose X-29's in Circle Keystone from my stock.

BTW: Today I built-up a Bowser F30a flat and a Bowser GS gondola. Look 
good, given the molded details. Since I am a passenger nut, I can live 
with freight cars like that, though I really appreciate what Red Caboose 
gives for $5 more.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
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From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: [PRR] Decal source
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 18:00:26 -0800

Please pardon me for not being specific to the PRR topic, however this is
the only place I cab think might have the answer to my question.
I know many of you are modelers.
Does anyone know the address for GC&E Shops. An article in Railroad model
craftsman mention that a model was decaled with decals from GC&E shops but
they didn't give a source for them.
Again, my apologies for being off topic.
Greg


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Subject: [PRR] R50b Cars
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 20:16:40 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

As a result of our recent passenger car survery, I will be contacting 
numerous manufacturers with the results. I did the same with the loco 
survey, but not with the freight survey as it was inconclusive.

The R50b was an oft "wished for" car. And, like the X29, one which a 
modeler would likely want multiple units. I know I would want two dozen 
or so. Obviously the market is there for the PRR modeler, but what about 
other lines?

Did other lines use the R50b?

I checked Rob's freight car roster and there is no information. See that, 
Rob, I remembered this time!!!

As an aside, the R50b was included in passenger rosters -- not freight -- 
like the X29's assigned to "Railway Express Agency". I checked the 1954 
passenger roster and there are quite a bunch of them listed, as well as a 
single R50a and a single R60.

Does anyone have detailed diagrams that could be used to generate a model?

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:00:22 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] R-50b


 Hi you all....


   For Jerry and you all....

   Accurails list shows a article or plan for the R-50b from the March 1945
   Model Railroader magazine. Anyone on this list have a copy ?
   Else wise...were stuck with Cannonballs R-50b....a good model,but
   needs 90's technology updating. Heavy thing too. 


                                       Til Later
                                       Hank Mummert


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Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:52:24 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] magazine drawing list


 Hi folks....

  Ok....this coming week i should be getting around to posting the all-time
  magazine drawing and link list...I'm going on what i have plus what
  i've received from you all...if anyone has anything else feel free
  to send a e-mail to me...


                                            Til Later
                                            Hank Mummert


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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:15:55 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower

In a message dated 98-12-27 12:57:44 EST, you write:

<< he foot
 scale.  (Not guage.  haha)
 Any takers?
 Rich
  >>
*****yeah, put "the friend" down fer $ 25.00, and maybe a couple of more
associates I can arm-twist..???...bill/****

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From: Sean121982@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:11:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower

if this idea got off the ground, id put some cash into it. its just too bad
that there was no way to save MO

sean mcdonnell

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From: CENTGA@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:26:55 EST
Subject: [PRR] K4's for Christmas

I hope everyone had a good Christmas. I rewarded myself for being so good this
year by buying 2 Bachman K4's  #1361, #3750. These seem to be much better that
the original ones, I passed on them. The only problem I've noticed is that in
reverse on a tight curve the locomotive shorts out and stalls. Has anyone else
had this problem?  Other than that I'm pleased with the latest Bachman
offering. I hope they continue to improve, as we'll all benefit.  Todd Horton 

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 00:05:30 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b Cars

Jerry:

Rail Classics just did the R50b in brass -- 3 different versions.  They should
have all the necessary information to make the car in plastic as well.  Since
the run is sold out, they may be willing to make it available.

Rich Orr

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Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:29:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b Cars
From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan)

I seem to recall seeing a picture of an NP train, I believe the Alaskan,
with an R50b in Washington.
Pat Egan
(no web access)

On Sun, 27 Dec 98 20:16:40 -0500 Jerry <jerry@dsop.com> writes:
>As a result of our recent passenger car survery, I will be contacting 
>numerous manufacturers with the results. I did the same with the loco 
>survey, but not with the freight survey as it was inconclusive.
>
>The R50b was an oft "wished for" car. And, like the X29, one which a 
>modeler would likely want multiple units. I know I would want two 
>dozen 
>or so. Obviously the market is there for the PRR modeler, but what 
>about 
>other lines?
>
>Did other lines use the R50b?
>
>I checked Rob's freight car roster and there is no information. See 
>that, 
>Rob, I remembered this time!!!
>
>As an aside, the R50b was included in passenger rosters -- not freight 
>-- 
>like the X29's assigned to "Railway Express Agency". I checked the 
>1954 
>passenger roster and there are quite a bunch of them listed, as well 
>as a 
>single R50a and a single R60.
>
>Does anyone have detailed diagrams that could be used to generate a 
>model?
>
>-----------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
>"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
>     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
>-----------------------------------------------
>
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:47:21 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get?
From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan)

Is it a Baldwin or a Lima?
If it's a Baldwin, is it a DT-6-6-20, or an RT624, and if an RT624, does
it have Commonwealth, trimount style drop equalizer, or Alco RSD4/5
trucks? 
Inquiring minds want to know!
Pat Egan

On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:11:50 EST Ogarasteam@aol.com writes:
>A Baldwwin Lima Center Cab Transfer Unit made by HobbyTown of Boston.  
>It runs
>great and looks good on the clubs modular units at our XMas show.
>Joe O
>ogarasteam@aol.com
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 23:47:58 -0500
From: John W Rosenbauer <jlrosennospam@wpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PBM54

Question:

A friend is interested in the Buffalo Creek & Gauley. According to a
photo and information he has, the BC&G seems to have had 2 PBM54s. The
info indacated they were retired in 1941. The info I have says PBM54s
weren't even built till Nov-42. Anyone have any ideas?

To view a photo:
 http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/8465/pennsycom.jpg

Thanks,

J.W.Rosenbauer


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 05:37:29 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower

In a message dated 98-12-27 12:57:44 EST, RLA0220@webtv.net writes:

<< If we as a group each put up  25.00 X 280
 (list members.  Is that right Jerry?)  would >>

Forgive me for being negative, but we just went through
this, with respect to a cabin car, about 6 months ago.
Apparently only a handful of the listmembers coughed
up the $15.00 which was requested, and my check has
still not been negotiated. Count me out, unless some very
specific plans are produced.

Rich Copeland

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b Cars
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 06:35:19 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/28/98 12:05 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote:

>Rail Classics just did the R50b in brass -- 3 different versions.  They 
>should
>have all the necessary information to make the car in plastic as well.  Since
>the run is sold out, they may be willing to make it available.

I doubt they would want to provide the means to prevent the success of a 
possible rerun in brass. However, they are on this list -- I don't 
recognize their e-mail address -- so perhaps they'd be willing to contact 
me directly with a "Yea" or a "Nea"!

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Thomas Fry" <blackhawk@csi.com>
Subject: [PRR] Renewed "O"  member
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:42:09 -0500

Hi Greg-- and the list.

I'm a restarted "O" Gauge enthusiast..  Kids are gown, the job is less
important, I have been buying MTH equipment from my era(40's & 50's)... I'm
from Columbia PA... live 3 blocks form the PRR YARD, my grandfather worked
for the PRR in the Yard and my uncle was a conductor out of Enola... I now
make my home in Greenville SC,, but my children , all live in YORK,
Lancaster and Columbia...areas..(At least I can get someone to send me PRR
stuff)..

Hope y'all had a great holiday....

tom



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] Invitation to Share Layout Descriptions
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 09:23:51 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

There have been a few threads lately that have included "snippet" 
descriptions of various subscriber's modeling efforts.

I'd like to remind everyone that an open invitation exists to share a 
description of your layout with others via the Layouts page of Keystone 
Crossings:
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/

Even if your layout is only a dream right now, please share your plans 
with us. (It's free!)

Modelers can use each others experiences for inspiration, etc.

Include your scale, dimensions of layout room, prototype setting (if 
one), era modeled, control system, locomotive roster, etc. Several 
paragraphs would be nice, but one paragraph will suffice. Photos welcome 
(I can scan and return).

I know there are a lot modelers out there who haven't taken advantage of 
this who ought to -- Bill Knepper, John Keel, Carl Izzo, Stan Ebersole, 
etc. -- but I won't mention names!

Together we can build a "Virtual PRR"!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:01:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Traffic in 1954

Jerry and all,
   As I wrote in my article in Mainline Modeler, you must have a CB&Q car.  In
nearly every photograph of a mainline freight on the system it seems as
thought there are two cars present. First and foremost is a "Q" car and then a
UP car.  I usually find that they are both 40 foot and both post war
production 10' 6" cars, but not always.  Then in an occasional photograph, but
more often than one might think normal I find two more railroads cars
present...  First is a Santa Fe car, evenly matched 40 foot to 50 foot and
then the ACL silver and black 50' PS-1 single door box.  Most of my
observations are backed by good color or black and white shots in the diesel
steam transition era.  Remember, Pennsy was very friendly towards both the UP
and the "Q" and by the 60's was pooling power with both roads on the West end.
   Greg Martin  

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Ken Reinert <kreinert@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pottstown, Pa., Trackage Query
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:02:25 -0500 (EST)

Jerry wrote:
> As one enters Pottstown from Rt 422 west and heads north on Hanover 
> Street, one crosses a single railroad track. There's an abandoned station 
> on the left. About 200' later are two railroad tracks and a restored 
> stone station on the left. These latter two tracks and the station I know 
> to be Reading. Is the first track PRR? I believe they ran into Pottstown, 
> but I'm not sure.

Yes, that single track is PRR.  The PRR and RDG ran in *very* close
proximity through Pottstown, with the mill (of which I can't recall
the name now) being about all that separated the two.  I believe both
roads had access to common trackage within the industrial complex(es)
in this area.

> If the above is PRR, where did the route go heading east? As of 
> Royersford/Spring City, only the dual tracks of the Reading (and station) 
> is present, so the RoW would have to be further south, if it still exists.

The PRR generally paralleled PA Route 724 south of Pottstown; the
ROW was to the east of the highway, and if one looks long and hard
enough, the grade crossing locations on the intersecting streets can
be seen.  The same can be done further west, between Pottstown and
Birdsboro.  (OTOH, when Conrail removed the RDG Wilmington & Northern
branch south of Birdsboro, they left *absolutely* no traces of it
behind; I went looking for it in, oh, 1990 or so... the only
indication I found that it existed was a 10-12 ft. section of asphalt
where the track should have been at a grade crossing.  No roadbed, no
left-behind signal relay cases, nothing else was left.)

Part of the PRR ROW near Norristown is now a bike/hiking trail; this
is along the portion where the connection from the RDG Norristown
Branch goes up to the Trenton Cutoff.

     Ken
-- 

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] Pottstown, Pa., Trackage Query
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 10:02:23 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

(CROSS-POSTED TO PRR AND READING LISTS)

I have relatives in Pottstown Pa and have often pondered the following 
question:

As one enters Pottstown from Rt 422 west and heads north on Hanover 
Street, one crosses a single railroad track. There's an abandoned station 
on the left. About 200' later are two railroad tracks and a restored 
stone station on the left. These latter two tracks and the station I know 
to be Reading. Is the first track PRR? I believe they ran into Pottstown, 
but I'm not sure.

East of Hanover Street is an old mill of some sort. The Reading tracks 
pass on the north side of it while the single track skirts it to the 
south.

Perhaps this is all Reading and the single track was merely for access to 
the mill, with the abandoned station being for freight and the restored 
station for passengers only?

If the above is PRR, where did the route go heading east? As of 
Royersford/Spring City, only the dual tracks of the Reading (and station) 
is present, so the RoW would have to be further south, if it still exists.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 10:41:35 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

When submitting my own response to the Passenger Car Survey, I overlooked 
a car that I will need a ton of -- the MS60 Mail Storage Car!!!

I checked Rob's freight car roster and it does not list the MS60 under 
box cars. Although assigned to passenger service, I still thought I might 
find some info there, as I had with the R50 reefers.

What can anyone tell me about the MS60...
Does anyone make one in plastic in HO?
What "regular" box (X ?) would be repainted to make an MS60?
Are there appropriate decals available?

Bottom line: I'll need more MS60's than I will R50b's.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 12:19:07 -0500

Jerry,

I believe the MS60 is just a B60 baggage car assigned to US Mail storage
service.  I don't think it has any external identification, but was probably
sealed while in transit.  They were used to ship mail not intended for sorting
en-route.  That was most of the mail.  That's why there are so many of them. 
They probably would not be any of the "messenger" cars.  Those had facilities
for an en route attendant (desk, safe, toilet) and were identified on the
outside by a gold star.  The messenger cars probably had better ventilation
too, although I'm not sure.

regards,
Andy Miller
==============
When submitting my own response to the Passenger Car Survey, I overlooked 
a car that I will need a ton of -- the MS60 Mail Storage Car!!!

I checked Rob's freight car roster and it does not list the MS60 under 
box cars. Although assigned to passenger service, I still thought I might 
find some info there, as I had with the R50 reefers.

What can anyone tell me about the MS60...
Does anyone make one in plastic in HO?
What "regular" box (X ?) would be repainted to make an MS60?
Are there appropriate decals available?

Bottom line: I'll need more MS60's than I will R50b's.


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 12:38:02 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/28/98 12:19 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote:

>I believe the MS60 is just a B60 baggage car assigned to US Mail storage
>service.  I don't think it has any external identification, but was probably
>sealed while in transit.  They were used to ship mail not intended for 
>sorting
>en-route.  That was most of the mail.  That's why there are so many of them. 
>They probably would not be any of the "messenger" cars.  Those had facilities
>for an en route attendant (desk, safe, toilet) and were identified on the
>outside by a gold star.  The messenger cars probably had better ventilation
>too, although I'm not sure.

I'm surprised that, if there is no external marking, it was referred to 
as a different class. Perhaps the class indicator on the outside was 
"MS60".

Anyone make a decent B60 in HO? I checked Eastern Car Works site: no. 
Brass Car Sides: no.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 13:55:07 -0500

Jerry,

Eastern Car Work now markets the old Bethlehem B60.  A nice model but at $35 a
pop, a bit pricey for plastic.  I've scratch built the half dozen I have.  Its
not too hard if you are willing to forgo the rivets - and I am working on an
easy solution for that.

regards,
Andy Miller
============
On 12/28/98 12:19 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote:

>I believe the MS60 is just a B60 baggage car assigned to US Mail storage
>service.  I don't think it has any external identification, but was probably
>sealed while in transit.  They were used to ship mail not intended for 
>sorting
>en-route.  That was most of the mail.  That's why there are so many of them. 
>They probably would not be any of the "messenger" cars.  Those had facilities
>for an en route attendant (desk, safe, toilet) and were identified on the
>outside by a gold star.  The messenger cars probably had better ventilation
>too, although I'm not sure.

I'm surprised that, if there is no external marking, it was referred to 
as a different class. Perhaps the class indicator on the outside was 
"MS60".

Anyone make a decent B60 in HO? I checked Eastern Car Works site: no. 
Brass Car Sides: no.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 14:47:05 -0500

I checked their site, which may be out-of-date, and it doesn't list the 
B60.

Bethlehem Car Works lists the B62, but at $59.95. Geez, can't afford many 
of them!

- -----------
ECW just acquired the B60 from BCW about 6 mos ago.  I guess they haven't
updated their Website yet.  But they have advertised it in MainLine Modeler.

regards,

Andy Miller


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: TodEngine@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:31:02 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: Twelve Railfan Days of Christmas

In a message dated 98-12-28 10:01:07 EST, you write:

> I often give away rulebooks and employee timetables when I have duplicate
>  copies. How many do I need after a copy in the house and in the car? (And
>  before anyone asks, I have already given away all of my duplicates.)
>  
>  The worse case of railfan theft I've heard of was from a shortline owner
>  who told me that once someone stole the number boards from one of his
>  locomotives while he was working on another locomotive. And some people
>  wonder why railfans aren't welcomed visitors.

I was kinda joking when I made the comment about railfans giving stuff away,
where would our museums be today without the generousity of railfans.  

I'm also well aware or railfans stealing stuff off of equipment.  It really
hits home now since I have a locomotive that I would like to adorn with a
brass bell, five chimes, builders plates and all those other "neat" things,
but I'm very leery to do it because I don't want those items to disappear.  Of
course it is the same theiving railfans who would complain that the locomotive
doesn't sound good with a single chime horn and steel bell.

Rick

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 14:13:45 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/28/98 1:55 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote:

>Eastern Car Work now markets the old Bethlehem B60.  A nice model but at 
>$35 a
>pop, a bit pricey for plastic.  I've scratch built the half dozen I have.  
>Its
>not too hard if you are willing to forgo the rivets - and I am working on an
>easy solution for that.

I checked their site, which may be out-of-date, and it doesn't list the 
B60.

Bethlehem Car Works lists the B62, but at $59.95. Geez, can't afford many 
of them!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 14:15:24 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/28/98 1:51 PM, Terry Link (trlink@netcom.ca) wrote:

>The old Bethlehem Car Works B60 plastic kit is now available from Eastern
>Car Works.  Kit #1010.  Walthers shows them in stock at $35.00 retail.

Is that a complete kit? Or sans trucks, wheelsets, couplers, etc.? 

Is it painted/lettered or unpainted?

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Subject: Re: [PRR] Box Car Question
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 15:14:08 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/28/98 2:51 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote:

>They are describing the ribs on the end.   House cars ribbed ends invariably
>have a riveted seam half way up.  The numbers are describing the number of 
>ribs
>below that seam and the number above,  Thus a Murphy end (USRA) is a 5/5 
>end. 
>The 4/3/1 ends have an additional rectangular rib at the top.  They are the
>typical box car end of the post-war transition era.  The X43s had 4/3/1 ends.

Thanks.

If the X43 was a 4/3/1 variety, I'm surprised Red Caboose doesn't market 
their 4/3/1 in PRR livery...given the huge demand for their X29's.

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Subject: [PRR] REVIEW: "Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers"
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 14:02:54 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Digital Image Works and Brad Bower have a new video out, "Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers". The description from their web site closely matches that of the video sleeve:

"All Color video shot in June 1998 with CONRAIL's assistance.  Illustrating east slope helper operations on Horseshoe Curve from Altoona to Cresson, PA. Ride the cab of a 6300 series SD-40-2 helper engine from Rose to MO. Visit the block operator in ALTO tower and see first hand how the job is done.   View the workings at Rose interlocking its road and helper crews report for duty and climb aboard their trains. Watch the parade of CONRAIL's high horse power units from SD80 MACS. SD70's and GE wide cabs climb the steepest grade over the Allegheny Mountains.   Foreign rail power from Norfolk Southern to CSX dot the motive power units as trains are pushed toward the summit at GALLITZEN. At the Cresson engine terminal, tour the facility as helper power is fueled, sanded, watered, and turned for the next helper assignment. Train spotting at MG. BENNY, GALLITZEN, TUNNEL HILL, UN, MO and CRESSON. All color graphics, maps and factual narration. Come ride the helpers with us. 55" minutes in duration."

I have to say, this is a "must have" for both Conrail AND Pennsy fans! (Geez, guess I ought to include the PC folks in there!) It's $34.95 and you can purchase it online from Digital Image Works at
     http://www.diwks.com

Tell 'em I sent ya!

While my personal interest is strictly within the confines of things PRR, I found the video particular helpful in understanding the east slope of the Alleghenies. I've been to Altoona several times to railfan, but this kind of draws it all together.

Excellent diagrams show the inter-relations of the various towers and interlockings of Altoona. The narration points out details about these places as they are highlighted. 

This video would not be what it is without the help of Conrail. Supervisors at the Altoona loco shops where crews are assigned, ALTO tower, and Cresson engine terminal are interviewed and provide unique insight as to how things are done. I especially liked the segment on ALTO where the model board is shown and it is discussed how five interlockings are all run from this one tower now...one of the last active towers on the system! They take their orders from the Altoona East and Altoona West dispatchers, both stationed in Pittsburgh.

The on-board ride on a helper up the mountain is wonderful as the entire journey is narrated. As other trains are passed, their motive power and road numbers are brought to the attention of the viewer. As the helper journey progresses, trackside video is included from each location passed.

Besides being produced by list member Brad Bower, list member Ken McCorry also gets credit as one of the camera men. By the way, the camera work and color is superb...easily among the best I have seen. Good work, Brad!

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Subject: Re: [PRR] Box Car Question
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 14:51:21 -0500


When looking at box car models, I often see a series of numbers (e.g. 
"4/3/1"), especially AAR models. What do these signify?

- ---------------
They are describing the ribs on the end.   House cars ribbed ends invariably
have a riveted seam half way up.  The numbers are describing the number of ribs
below that seam and the number above,  Thus a Murphy end (USRA) is a 5/5 end. 
The 4/3/1 ends have an additional rectangular rib at the top.  They are the
typical box car end of the post-war transition era.  The X43s had 4/3/1 ends.

regards
Andy Miller


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Subject: Re: [PRR] RESULTS: Passenger Car Survey
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 14:36:41 -0500

Some comments on the Passenger Car Survey:

R50b - 6 votes
     * Red Caboose quality/price point desired
     * need a fleet of these!
     * need almost as many as X29's
=====
   Someone (Branchline?) has talked of doing R50bs.
=====
REA 50 ft steel express reefer -- 1 vote
     * either riveted or welded
=====
   Branchline has promised these as soon as their box cars and HW PUllmans are
done.
========
BM85a -- 1 vote
BM70ka -- 2 votes
BM70M -- 1 vote
========
This car can be kitbashed from and IHC BM70x with keystone Loco Works 6 wheel
trucks and Grant Line Windows)
- -=======
BM70 -- 1 vote
========
   If any BM70 will do, then IHC has you car
========
B70 -- 3 votes
PL85 - Baggage/Lounge/Bar (lightweight) -- 1 vote
     * sides acceptable
P54 commuter coach -- 1 vote
     * in plastic, so I can afford a bunch of them.
=======
  Same body as the MP54 so we should merge the votes. (I want to push the MP54
to the top of the list)
=======
PC70 cafe coach -- 2 votes
P70-bfR -- 1 vote
     * with correct trucks - I need a fleet of about 21 cars,
     No.s 1600-1755 with correct trucks -PRR Power III page 378
=======
   EasternCar Works makes a P70FBR.
=======
P70GS -- 1 vote
P70K -- 1 vote
=======
   WHAT! Nobody else joined me in my quest for streamlined modernized P70s??
=======
P85B (or P85BR)cars ? No.s 4100-4169 (PRR) or 4068-4091 (ACF) -- 2 votes
     * complete car, not just sides,but could be a flat kit
     SEE UNION STATION PRODUCTS!!!
P85BR -- 1 vote
=======
   These last 2 are the same car.  The "R" means air conditioned, and as almost
all cars becamed AC'ed, the PRR dropped the "R suffix.
=======
  PS21 - "Inn" series 21 roomette -- 2 votes
     * built by Budd, smooth side, fluted roof
     * sides acceptable
=======
   SEE UNION STATION PRODUCTS
=======
PS31L No.s 8120-8128 " Colonial" cars -- 1 vote
     SEE UNION STATION PRODUCTS!!!
PS106 - 10 Roomette-6Double bedroom "Rapid" Series -- 1 vote
     * MANY OF THESE ARE AVAILABLE
MP85(B/C)E1-TC  "Silverliners"  -- 2 votes
     * No.s 201 to 219 and 251 to 269 
MP54 -- 2 votes
MP54E2-TC -- 1 vote
MPB54 -- 1 vote
     * only 3 cars in this class - not the baggage/mail trailers
? - 14 section (heavyweight)  -- 1 vote
     * used as dorm on 1954 Liberty Limited
     * sides acceptable
6-6 "poplar" heavyweight cars -- 4 votes
     * with round roof...not flat ended
     * would appeal to Milwaukee (Olympian, Olympian
     Hiawatha, Columbian - all the same 6 cars), 
     NP (North Coast Limited), CB&Q (had lots of them), 
     and certainly other roads.  Ought be a fairly
     popular car.  I expect Branchline will be working 
     on this in HO along
     with other varieties of sleeper useful to SPFs.
     * rebuilt as a betterment car.
3-6 "square" heavyweight cars -- 1 vote
28 seat-1dr-parlor heavyweight cars -- 2 votes
     * BALD EAGLE, GROVE, etc.
Parlour/Solarium heavyweight such as 'Trimount' (7033) -- 1 vote
8 section lounge with A/C -- 2 votes
     * ala 1950's as used on Southland, Dominion, etc.
     * see Keystone Summer 89
8 section/5 double bedroom -- 2 votes
     * 1950's usable
10-1-2 Heavyweight sleeper -- 1 vote
12-1 Heavyweight sleeper -- 2 votes
"Queen Mary" P74 variant -- 1 vote
D70 modernized -- 1 vote
D78 modernized -- 1 vote
     * any subclass, which would be usable on many trains
Twin unit diners -- 1 vote
     SEE UNION STATION PRODUCTS!!!
B74B horse-express car -- 1 vote
     * BCW kit  type OK
======
    BCW has been working on this for some time now.   The end door castings are
available
======
PS105 - "Eagle" blue/grey livery for joint MoPac service -- 1 vote
     * rtr
PS106 - "Texas Special" red/silver livery for joint MKT service -- 1 vote
       * rtr
======
    No such animal.  The TS cars the PRR painted were 10-5s, not 10-6s. 
======
The four fluted side car types  (bag-lounge, diner, coach, 
     and observation) that make up the "South Wind" 
     (flat car kits OK, as long as all parts fit) -- 1 vote
1952 Congo cars (any including coffee shop diners) -- 1 vote
PRR Brill gas-electrics -- 1 vote
     * Maybe even to fit Bachmann chassis)
Pre and post WWII Broadway Limited consists -- 1 VOTE
     * NOTED HERE BECAUSE IT IS A VAGUE REEQUEST
The whole Congressional -- 1 vote
=======
   Same as 1952 Congo above.  Really 2 vote for these cars
=======



regards,
Andy Miller


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Subject: [PRR] Box Car Question
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 14:32:04 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

When looking at box car models, I often see a series of numbers (e.g. 
"4/3/1"), especially AAR models. What do these signify?

------------------------------------------------------------------
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   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:45:03 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars

In a message dated 12/28/98 7:30:15 PM Central Standard Time,
ajc5150@net66.com writes:

<< ne last question.  Does anybody make 3C-P1 trucks?
  >>
One of the brass manufacturers, PSC?,or whoever produced the brass BM70s, did.
I bought a pair in a weak, affluent moment, in the $20plus category, since I
knew I only needed one pair.  Don't know if they are still available.  

Bob Zoeller


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Subject: Re: [PRR] Box Car Question
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 16:57:36 -0500

Jerry said:

If the X43 was a 4/3/1 variety, I'm surprised Red Caboose doesn't market 
their 4/3/1 in PRR livery...given the huge demand for their X29's.

- -----------
There's more to an X43 than just the ends and I don't recall the details of the
RC car.  However X43 subclasses included riveted cars, welded cars, 10 panel
sides, 12 panel sides, Murphy roofs, diagonal panel roofs, 7 foot doors, and 8
foot doors, although not in all possible combinations (see Rob Schoenburg's
website).  I'll bet the RC car has a 6' door.

C&BT makes them all and Branchline has been promising a craftsman kit.

regards,

Andy Miller


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From: "Terry Link" <trlink@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:04:32 -0500

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

>>The old Bethlehem Car Works B60 plastic kit is now available from Eastern
>>Car Works.  Kit #1010.  Walthers shows them in stock at $35.00 retail.
>
>Is that a complete kit? Or sans trucks, wheelsets, couplers, etc.?
>
>Is it painted/lettered or unpainted?

I only have the Bethlehem Car Works kit and it came unpainted without trucks
or couplers.  It did however include Middle Division decals.  Price on the
box was $29.95.

Eastern Car Works doesn't offer any of their kits decorated, so it would be
safe to say that it will be unpainted.  Whether or not it includes the
decals, not sure, doubt it.  Eastern Car Works offers the 2D-P5 truck, so
it's possible their kit includes these trucks (which would explain the $5
increase).

Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario
TRLINK@netcom.ca



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:33:05 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] RESULTS: Passenger Car Survey

In a message dated 12/28/98 2:13:02 PM Central Standard Time,
asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes:

<<  WHAT! Nobody else joined me in my quest for streamlined modernized P70s??
>>

ECW has a modernized large window P70 (or is that the P70FBR--I ' m too lazy
to look it up).  Or are you referring to something else?

Bob Zoeller

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:09:52 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars

In a message dated 12/28/98 11:30:21 AM Central Standard Time,
asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes:

<<  I don't think it has any external identification, but was probably
 sealed while in transit. >>

Occasionally they were open or "semiopen", whatever that meant.  Don't know
whether this referred to a car placed next to the RPO car for overflow as the
clerks worked or to a car which had bagged mail thrown on at stops, or both.  

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:27:07 -0600
From: Andy Cich <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars

Jerry wrote:
> 
> On 12/28/98 1:55 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote:
> 
> >Eastern Car Work now markets the old Bethlehem B60.  A nice model but at
> >$35 a
> >pop, a bit pricey for plastic.
> 
> I checked their site, which may be out-of-date, and it doesn't list the
> B60.
> 
> Bethlehem Car Works lists the B62, but at $59.95. Geez, can't afford many
> of them!

As Andy Miller stated, Eastern Car Works purchased the tooling for the
B60 and the M70 from Bethlehem, but ECW has not updated their web site
to reflect this yet.

I believe the Bethlehem B60 and M70 were made out of ABS.  Does anybody
know if ECW is making them in styrene?

Another difference I noticed is the roofs.  I have a Bethlehem M70, and
it has an arch roof.  A photo in an Eastern Car Works ad in Model
Railroader shows a clerestory roof.  Did ECW tool a new roof?

The Bethlehem kits did not include trucks.  I purchased ECW 3D-P1 trucks
to use.  Do the ECW kits include trucks, which may account for the $5
price increase?

One last question.  Does anybody make 3C-P1 trucks?



Andy C.

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Subject: [PRR] Request for info on th C&P and C&M around Dover, Ohio
From: fredrea@juno.com (Fred G Rea)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:53:03 EST

Do any of you have any information on or interest in the PRR branches
that operated around Dover and New Philadelphia, Ohio.  I was born there
in 1938 and could see Middle yards between Dover and New Philly from my
bedroom. I am particularly interested in specific steam and diesel
locomotives on those lines from the early 1940's thru abandonment in the
60's and 70's.  

My memories of steam are H-? doing local industry switching and I-1s in
and out of town.  One clear memory is riding my bike pacing the H
listening to the clank of its side rods as it took its typical consist of
a few box cars and an N6 cabin to New Phila. Diesels showed up in the
early 50's bringing the demise of the large coaling trestle and two ash
pits. I have few recollections of the specific diesels.   I left for
college in 1956, and from then on, only occasional visits with my folks. 
I guess the C&P from Bayard was pulled in the 60's and the C&M in the mid
70's.

Anybody have any info on dates for the demise of passenger service (in
the 30's) and train routings through the remaining years?

As is so typical, I took many rr photos since I was in grade school,
almost none while in my home town! The few I have are of the final years 
(1955-57) of B&O steam on the CL&W on the west side of town.  None of the
rr next door, except for a B&W of the E unit coming out of the Mineral
City tunnel, same as picturted in Trains Magazine a few years ago.

Fred Rea
Columbus, OH
NMRA
PRRH&TS

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Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:07:24 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] PBM-54,B-62,BM70 and B-60


 Hi all....

  This is mostly for Jerry,Andy Miller, and John Rosenbauer.....

  (On the B-60...) I've scratch built a couple of them myself...and
  without the rivets...not too bad. Only problem was that as soon as
  i built them....Bethlehem's kit came out...Then i could'nt get a 
  kit...sheesh...oh well.

  (On the B-62...) Jerry...for the years we model...the B-62 would'nt
  work...according to the second PRR Color guide to Freight and Passenger
  equipment....They were 14 cars bought second hand in 1964 from the 
  Reading RR. A bit too late for us. They look a lot like Pennsy cars
  though...Reading had a bit in common with Pennsy.

  (On the PBM-54...)  I'm almost certain that these cars were built
  before 1941. N & W bought somewhat similar cars from the Pennsy
  second hand in 1934. I'm guessing that a lot of former 54 ft. cars
  that Pennsy used on commuter and branch line runs were sold off
  as service was curtailed or changed over to Gas-Electric cars in the 30's.
  Many smaller roads bought many of these cars from Pennsy.
  There is a plan for the MPBM-54 (electric version) in "PRR passenger
  and freight car diagrams" by Robert Wayner. The plan in the book is
  identical in arrangement to the car shown in the picture.

  (On the BM70 cars...) One of the things i did to one of the IHC cars 
  to back date it was that i used some trucks from a Bachmann PRR
  diner. I still wish Bachmann sold them apart from the cars.
  I also added a mail hook and redecaled them. I can live with the windows
  for now...but might add new windows later (maybe New England Rail 
  Service windows, I used these on my Gas-Electric conversion.)I also
  have added Walthers diaphrams.


                                          See you all later
                                          Hank Mummert
  


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:15:38 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars

In a message dated 12/28/98 12:29:17 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

<< I'm surprised that, if there is no external marking, it was referred to 
 as a different class. Perhaps the class indicator on the outside was 
 "MS60".>>
No.  I believe Andy is right.  Cars marked  "Railway Express Agency" were used
for the service.  The MS60 was a consist reference to indicate the service it
was used for in the train.
 
 Anyone make a decent B60 in HO? I checked Eastern Car Works site: no. 
 Brass Car Sides: no. >>

Actually, the BCW B60 I referred to in another post  is now made by ECW who
bought the tooling. A beautfiul car.  Surprised there is nothing at their
site. They have been advertised in past year in mags.

Bob Zoeller

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:47:15 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars

In a message dated 12/28/98 10:20:11 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com
writes:

<< What can anyone tell me about the MS60...
 Does anyone make one in plastic in HO? >>

An MS60 is a B60 used for mail storage.  The BCW car is the right car.
However, although I have three of the latter kits, I have built one.  They are
not difficult , just time consumng.  The B60 (or MS60) roamed coast to coast
in passenger interchange  (one ran in the General  transferring to the CB&Q to
Council Bluffs)  and ran in 30 car trains of mail and express on the PRR ,so
it would  be a good car to manufacture in plastic RTR, IMHO.  
BTW, I have always assumed, perhaps incorrectly,  that the passenger car
consist book reference to an "MS60 (X29)" referred to the X42 mail storage
car. Or were they just indicating either a B60 or X29 for mail storage?
Anybody confirm?
Seems like the only place I ever saw an X42 in a consist was Chicago-
Cincinatti train.

Now you are on my favorite subject, headend cars.:-)


Bob Zoeller
Fox Point, WI

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From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" <dennis@onerrave.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:28:41 -0500

Eastern Car Works now produces the PRR B60.  The part number is 117-1010 and
the retail price is $35.00.  They also produce the PRR M70B RPO.  Part
number is 117-1020 at $35.00. Both cars are currently available.

Dennis
mailto:dennis@onerrave.com

D & S HOBBIES
http://www.onerrave.com
34 Main Street
South Bound Brook, NJ 08880




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From: "jbreon" <jbreon@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:06:20 -0500

      With apologies to ECW, I purchased one of the recently released B60
kits to go along with about seven of the Bethlehem kits purchased a few
years ago, and it is not as nice as I would have liked. It suffers from the
usual ECW warped parts and does not include the Middle Division decals that
the Bethlehem kits did. Don't know why John Greene decided not to offer this
kit anymore. I thought it was a winner when available from his company.
Jerry Breon
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew S. Miller <asmiller@mail11.mitre.org>
To: PRR-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars


>I checked their site, which may be out-of-date, and it doesn't list the
>B60.
>
>Bethlehem Car Works lists the B62, but at $59.95. Geez, can't afford many
>of them!
>
>- -----------
>ECW just acquired the B60 from BCW about 6 mos ago.  I guess they haven't
>updated their Website yet.  But they have advertised it in MainLine
Modeler.
>
>regards,
>
>Andy Miller
>
>
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Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:47:35 -0500
From: Charles Ring <charlesr@infonline.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for info on th C&P and C&M around Dover, Ohio



Fred G Rea wrote:

> Do any of you have any information on or interest in the PRR branches
> that operated around Dover and New Philadelphia, Ohio.  I was born there
> in 1938 and could see Middle yards between Dover and New Philly from my
> bedroom. I am particularly interested in specific steam and diesel
> locomotives on those lines from the early 1940's thru abandonment in the
> 60's and 70's.
>

Dover / New Philadelphia was one of the places my father (Charles Ring Sr.)
served as Yardmaster in the 50's and early 60's, but I don't have any info on
operations there. We then lived in the Niles area and he had to work in a
number of places until he had enough seniority to stay at Niles and then
Goodman yards. He would stay in Dover all week and only come home on
weekends.





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From: AJSNGS@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:40:16 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism Matchbook FS

I have a mint condition PRR Fleet of Modernism matchbook for sale on Ebay.
The number is 51595084 and there is a photo with it.

It has the picture that was featured on the timetable covers showing three
Fleet of Modernism observation cars.

I am always interested in buying quality Pennsy artifacts.

Andrew Sentipal


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Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:10:11 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
Subject: [PRR] P&E/E&P roundhouses

Besides Erie, what towns had roundhouses on the P&E and E&P branches? 
I'm hoping to be able to model both branches & need to decide where to
terminate.  Thanks!
-- 
Jerry Shickler
e-mail: geshick@velocity.net
Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm

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From: "Daun Yeagley III" <vwpilot@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for info on th C&P and C&M around Dover, Ohio
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:46:18 PST


>Do any of you have any information on or interest in the PRR branches
>that operated around Dover and New Philadelphia, Ohio.

>I guess the C&P from Bayard was pulled in the 60's and the C&M in the 
mid
>70's.

*Almost.*  Ohio-Rail runs at least from Bayard to the west edge of 
Minerva - managed to catch a small bit of their operations while 
visiting with family yesterday.

I would appreciate any information / photos of the former C&P, 
especially south of Alliance.

Thanks!

Daun Yeagley
Wilmington Ohio.


______________________________________________________
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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:59:38 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower

In a message dated 98-12-28 06:46:02 EST, you write:

<< Subj:	 Re: [PRR] MO tower
 Date:	98-12-28 06:46:02 EST
 From:	PRRMAN@aol.com
 Sender:	PRR-Talk@dsop.com
 To:	RLA0220@webtv.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com
 
 In a message dated 98-12-27 12:57:44 EST, RLA0220@webtv.net writes:
 
 << If we as a group each put up  25.00 X 280
  (list members.  Is that right Jerry?)  would >>
 
 Forgive me for being negative, but we just went through
 this, with respect to a cabin car, about 6 months ago.
 Apparently only a handful of the listmembers coughed
 up the $15.00 which was requested, and my check has
 still not been negotiated. Count me out, unless some very
 specific plans are produced.
 
 Rich Copeland
  >>*******Hi, Rich and all...
My thinking was that we **may*** be able to get town /  tourist / motel /
whatever significant help on this project, and that would be the "key" stone
...hmmm, just a chat item now, see who cares ..??/ Rich needs something to do
during the cold PA  winter, anyway..??!!!    HNY, Bill***

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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:56:56 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars

The ECW B-60 kit includes a pair of their trucks but no decals. The old BCW
kit included decals but no trucks.    Ken McCorry

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:49:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Box Car Question

In a message dated 12/28/98 11:05:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes:

> There's more to an X43 than just the ends and I don't recall the details of 
> the
>  RCA car.  However X43 subclasses included riveted cars, welded cars, 10
panel
>  sides, 12 panel sides, Murphy roofs, diagonal panel roofs, 7 foot doors,
and 
> 8
>  foot doors, although not in all possible combinations (see Rob Schoenburg's
>  website).  I'll bet the RC car has a 6' door.
>  
>  C&BT makes them all and Branchline has been promising a craftsman kit.
>  
>  regards,
>  
>  Andy Miller
>  
>  
They also had both Superior doors and Youngstown doors depending on the
subclass.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:52:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower

This is all moot in as much as MO no longer exists.  Down and hauled away.

Rich Orr


In a message dated 12/29/98 12:12:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
PRRSignals@aol.com writes:

> In a message dated 98-12-28 06:46:02 EST, you write:
>  
>  << Subj:	 Re: [PRR] MO tower
>   Date:	98-12-28 06:46:02 EST
>   From:	PRRMAN@aol.com
>   Sender:	PRR-Talk@dsop.com
>   To:	RLA0220@webtv.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com
>   
>   In a message dated 98-12-27 12:57:44 EST, RLA0220@webtv.net writes:
>   
>   << If we as a group each put up  25.00 X 280
>    (list members.  Is that right Jerry?)  would >>
>   
>   Forgive me for being negative, but we just went through
>   this, with respect to a cabin car, about 6 months ago.
>   Apparently only a handful of the listmembers coughed
>   up the $15.00 which was requested, and my check has
>   still not been negotiated. Count me out, unless some very
>   specific plans are produced.
>   
>   Rich Copeland
>    >>*******Hi, Rich and all...
>  My thinking was that we **may*** be able to get town /  tourist / motel /
>  whatever significant help on this project, and that would be the "key"
stone
>  ...hmmm, just a chat item now, see who cares ..??/ Rich needs something to 
> do
>  during the cold PA  winter, anyway..??!!!    HNY, Bill***
>  

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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 8:48:47 EST
From: <kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL>
Subject: [PRR] L1 Bowser superdetail kit

My lovely wife gave me a superdetail kit for my Bowser L1 Mikado.  This 
will be my first experience with these kits.  Can anyone provide  tips or 
advice learned through their own experience?  When I took the L1 out of the 
box I noticed some oxidation of the bottom of the tender.  Is this cause 
for any concern?  Are their any specific steps I need to take to stop it?

Thanks for the replies in advance.

Kris

BTW   I received PRR Diesel Years Vol 4; PRR color calendar; several HO 
scale vehicle kits; Hallmark GG-1 ornament



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Subject: Re: [PRR] RESULTS: Passenger Car Survey
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 09:05:19 -0500

Bob,

thanx for reminding me. ECW makes a P70FAR.  I own two.   However,  as far as I
can tell,  the FARs were short-haul coaches, used in NY-Philly Clockers and
such.  The GS was long-haul day coach (NY-Pittsbg e.g.); while the P70K was an
overnight coach originally built for the Jeffersonian and Trailblazer.
  And I bet some of you thought that a coach was a coach was a coach ;-)  Well,
once upon I time I even thought all brown box cars were alike!

regards,
Andy Miller
========
In a message dated 12/28/98 2:13:02 PM Central Standard Time,
asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes:

<<  WHAT! Nobody else joined me in my quest for streamlined modernized P70s??
>>

ECW has a modernized large window P70 (or is that the P70FBR--I ' m too lazy
to look it up).  Or are you referring to something else?

Bob Zoeller


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Subject: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 09:52:18 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I'm in search of a PRR prototype for an interlocking plant I need for my 
model railroad.

There will be four tracks with the "standard" PRR interlock. 
Additionally, there will be a fifth track entering each end of the 
interlocking, from opposing sides, to bring trains in from staging.

Here is what I need:

staging____
___________\_____________________________________WB freight
__________________\_____________/________________EB freight
______________________\_____/____________________WB pass
__________________/_____________\________________EB pass
                      tower           \____staging

The passenger tracks and freight tracks are paired, as they will have 
just come through a wall after passing HARRIS tower in Harrisburg. This 
is how they ran there.

The available space is a shelf about 14" wide and 14' long...more than 
long enough for the interlocking. I checked Mark's site for Philadelphia 
Division interlockings, but none are close.

The one that comes to mind is MO, with the one turnout moved EB:

Cresson Sec____
_______________\_____________________________________
______________________\_____________/________________
__________________________\_____/____________________  EB
______________________/_____________\________________
              \           MO          
               \______________________________0 Track

Any other ideas?

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E/E&P roundhouses
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:34:48 -0500


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
To: PRR-talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 12:06 AM
Subject: [PRR] P&E/E&P roundhouses


>Besides Erie, what towns had roundhouses on the P&E and E&P branches?
>I'm hoping to be able to model both branches & need to decide where to
>terminate.  Thanks!


Jerry,

What facilities you include are obviously function of the time period you
want to model. Over the years the E&P had roundhouses as follows:

1. A 7 track at Dock Junction Yard, Erie (c 1901) by 1936 there were 16
radial tracks. However, I don't know how many were in the house. Original
roundhouse was built in 1865.

2. A 3 track at Sharon behind the freight and passenger station (c 1905),
this was gone by 1934 when the turntable and ash pit was retired.

3. A 4 track at Wheatland adjacent to Ohio Street. This was closed probably
around the 1950s but was still standing, unused in bad shape in 1960s.

4. A 15 track at New Castle inside the wye made by the E&P main, PY&A main
and the Crosscut Secondary. This roundhouse underwent many changes over the
years. In 1905 it was a split facility with 11 tracks on one side and 4
tracks on the other, bifurcated by the engine in and out tracks. This was
not actually an E&P facility it was PY&A. The corporate ownership of the E&P
ended at the Washington Street passenger station where it connected to the
New Castle & Beaver Valley RR (later the PY&A) and on to Lawrence Jct.
(later Castle). However the PRR considered the E&P Branch as going to
Lawrence Junction (Castle). This facility although reduced in size, I recall
maybe 3 or 4 stalls, was still around in the 1960s.

5. There was also an enginehouse (I don't believe it was round) at
Sharpsville that was owned by the Sharpsville RR. (jointly owned by the PRR
and B&O) This was retired by 1933.

6. Real early on the E&P also had an enginehouse (one or two track) at
Jamestown, when it was the end of the line, c. 1860-1863.


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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:02:39 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower

*****Hi, Rich-

You must have missed the original post, to RE Construct a new MO, safe
location, maybe closer to hotel, etc...

All reports indicated old one reallllly in baddd shape, physically.

Rich thought it up, I second, see what happens...Bill****

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Subject: [PRR] WWW.PENNSYRR.COM Update
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 98 13:41:47 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

I've somewhat revamped the top level of my PENNSYRR.COM domain.

The main page and the "what's new" page have been merged, into a 
newspaper style format. On this single page (http://www.pennsyrr.com) 
you'll find recent news and announcements of interest to PRR fans (likely 
covered in PRR-Talk as well), a directory to the PENNSYRR.COM domain, and 
the virtual "what's new" page for the major PRR sites that opt to 
participate (*).

The /new.html page is still there, for the benefit of bookmarks, but will 
be removed shortly.

So bookmark the new page and visit every few days to see What's New!!!


* Any "substantial" (determined by me) PRR web site may partipate by 
maintaining a simple HTML file on their site that contains two special 
tags that I provide. In between these tags the webmaster of the site 
includes a 30-day history of substantial changes to their site. As the 
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM page is served, it will automatically grab these files 
from the many large sites and provide one "virtual" index to recent 
additions across the net!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:43:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Staron <norats00@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower







---Dan Staron  wrote:
>
> 
> Richard 
> 
> A quick question. What has been saved from the MO tower.  Has any of
> the interlocking bed and levers been saved or has it all been scraped
> out. If it has been saved who has the legal right and possession to it
> now that would be a great place to start. The club I'm in here  in
> Coshocton, Ohio got premission to remove the electrical and machanical
> hardware in the old heath tower on the panhandle where the double
> track Pennsy crossed the old B&O in Heath, Ohio. Most of the hard work
> was in getting permission before the tower was razed being a
> non-profit org was a great help. Also the Marion model RR Club in
> Marion Ohio is in the prosess of moving the tower there they might be
> able to help with some feedback on the cost. I'm sure they are into 6
> digits ($100,000)
> 
> Dan Staron
> 
> 
> 
> ---RICHARD ADER  wrote:
> >
> > Hey gang,
> > Just had a wild idea that I shared with a friend
> 
> 
> .
> >
>
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> > 
>  
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Knepper" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:08:26 -0500

Rich and All,
"MO" is no longer a building !!!!!!! As Rich has stated it's gone!   But
Conrail still refers to the location as " MO destroyed" !?

I was up there on Monday an they ( Conrail) had a 6 car derailment at the
site of the signal bridge..........You guessed it .....The wreck took out
the signal bridge and blocked the main for 6 hours while the big dozers got
there and cleaned it up.  It  looked like 4 of the trailertrain type cars
telescoped on each other, followed by a rotary dump type hopper. It looked
like a junk yard, truck frames, springs, wheel sets everywhere. The only
full car lost a set of trucks, which they put back under it and set it out
for repair.

So " MO" is gone and so is the signal bridge !

Bill Knepper

----------
> From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
> To: PRRSignals@aol.com; PRRMAN@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower
> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 12:52 AM
> 
> This is all moot in as much as MO no longer exists.  Down and hauled
away.
> 
> Rich Orr
> 
> 
> In a message dated 12/29/98 12:12:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> PRRSignals@aol.com writes:
> 
> > In a message dated 98-12-28 06:46:02 EST, you write:
> >  
> >  << Subj:	 Re: [PRR] MO tower
> >   Date:	98-12-28 06:46:02 EST
> >   From:	PRRMAN@aol.com
> >   Sender:	PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> >   To:	RLA0220@webtv.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> >   
> >   In a message dated 98-12-27 12:57:44 EST, RLA0220@webtv.net writes:
> >   
> >   << If we as a group each put up  25.00 X 280
> >    (list members.  Is that right Jerry?)  would >>
> >   
> >   Forgive me for being negative, but we just went through
> >   this, with respect to a cabin car, about 6 months ago.
> >   Apparently only a handful of the listmembers coughed
> >   up the $15.00 which was requested, and my check has
> >   still not been negotiated. Count me out, unless some very
> >   specific plans are produced.
> >   
> >   Rich Copeland
> >    >>*******Hi, Rich and all...
> >  My thinking was that we **may*** be able to get town /  tourist /
motel /
> >  whatever significant help on this project, and that would be the "key"
> stone
> >  ...hmmm, just a chat item now, see who cares ..??/ Rich needs
something to 
> > do
> >  during the cold PA  winter, anyway..??!!!    HNY, Bill***
> >  
> 
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:29:01 -0500

This information below was given to a question posed on another talk group
interested in signals. One of the members of that group thought it
worthwhile to post on PRR-Talk.

Al

Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's


>Snip> does anyone on this private list know the motivation for these
economy
>moves? Was this coincident with a particular system VP or President or
>corporate structuring?
>
>Maybe Al will remember, thanks Bill!!! Ah yes the twenties, nineteen that
>is. I was but a meer gleam in my then teenage mother's eye. Its interesting
>to think of ones 92 year old mother as a teenager. However, 16 years later
I
>would be on the scene. Well enough of my family "stuff."
>
>The remainer of what I have to offer is speculation, albeit somewhat
>informed, based on recently  reading several PRR history books and spending
>time at the Hagley archives. Some of this "stuff" below is taken from a
>draft of my E&P book.
>
>In 1869 the expansion of the PRR through the continuing leasing of
>railroads, created a system with over 3,000 miles of road west of
>Pittsburgh. These acquisitions put a strain on the management capabilities
>of the organization headquartered in Philadelphia. Rather than attempt to
>spread the existing PRR organization over all of this new territory it was
>determined to set up a new company which would hold and manage all of the
>lines west of Pittsburgh and Erie.
>
>  So in 1870 the PRR established a new company known as the Pennsylvania
>Company (P Co.) to manage the lines west of Pittsburgh and Erie. This
>company, which started operation in 1871, was a separate and distinct
>operating entity comprised of 17 leased lines (comprised of 225
>corporations). It was believed that this new organization would secure
>greater efficiency, economy and harmony in the management of the numerous
>western properties. Lines West included the Northwestern and the
>Southwestern systems.  The Southwestern System (the Panhandle) actually
>operated separately from the Northwestern System, which for all intents and
>purposes created three autonomous systems within the PRR system all coming
>together at Pittsburgh.
>
>  During World War I the federal government, through the United States
>Railroad Administration (USRA), took control of all the railroads. This
>period of control lasted from December 28th 1917 to March 1st 1920.
>
>  During the war years it became apparent that the original PRR Lines
>East/Lines West philosophy wasn't working. So because of changed conditions
>and the fact that it was not deemed advisable to divide the system at
>Pittsburgh for operating reasons the Lines East/West philosophy was
scrapped
>effective March 1st 1920. At that time the PRR was reorganized into four
>operating regions - Eastern, Central, Northwestern and Southwestern.
>
>  However, it was realized by1925 that there was no need for two regions in
>the west, so the Northwestern and Southwestern Regions were combined to
form
>the Western Region. The regions managed 10 Grand Divisions (New Jersey,
>Southern, Eastern Pennsylvania, Central Pennsylvania, Northern, Western
>Pennsylvania, Lake, Eastern Ohio, Northwestern and Southwestern). Within
the
>Grand Divisions were 27 Operating Divisions (New York, Atlantic, Maryland,
>Delmarva, Philadelphia Terminal, Philadelphia, Middle, Wilkes-Barre,
>Williamsport, Renovo, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Monongahela, Conemaugh, Erie &
>Ashtabula, Cleveland, Eastern, Panhandle, Toledo, Logansport, Chicago
>Terminal, Ft. Wayne, Grand Rapids, Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and
>St. Louis).
>
> In a nut shell the PRR learned during the USRA period of control that the
>three organizations (Lines East, Lines West and the Panhandle) coming
>together at Pittsburgh didn't work. However, making organizational changes
>during the war was difficult, as corporate management actually had little
to
>no control over the railroad.  So when the control was given back to
>corporate management (3/1/20) they were able to enact the macro
>organizational changes that they had been wanting to do. I'm sure during
the
>USRA period other micro level changes such as elimination of block stations
>and other facilities became apparent. During the post war period traffic
>dropped off to some degree and less trains were run. Also massive amounts
of
>money were required to rebuild the physical plant, and what better place to
>get money than from eliminating jobs. Sound familiar?
>
>  Remember all 24 hour jobs require 4.2 people. If 12 block stations were
>closed that would eliminate 50.4 jobs. Hey Bill, maybe this is where
Neutron
>Don learned his lessons. Ha Ha.
>
>  I guess this period of time could be looked at as the railroad industries
>first stab at what in the 1970s we would call facilities and line
>rationalization.
>
>  I also think some of the original thinking behind the downgrading of
block
>stations from open to closed was to permit subsequent reopening at a later
>time if the traffic warranted. I also think some of it may have been used
to
>appease the brotherhoods. A closed block station could always be reopened,
>while a block limit station would be more difficult to reopen. I know that
>several E&P branch block stations flip-flopped back and forth from open to
>closed to open, etc. Mostly a function of traffic. Sometimes also the
>subsequent reopenings would be only on a part time basis.
>
>  I haven't really looked into this at all but maybe a few of the closings
>were during to upgrading lines from Manual Block Signal systems (where
>Block-limit stations are used) to Automatic Block Signal systems???
>
>  As a sidebar when I was working in western PA and OH I had heard that
some
>T&E crews would refuse to take (write) train orders at block limit
stations.
>Bill maybe you can shed some light on this.
>
>  I hope this helps.
>
>Al
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose 4/3/1 in PRR livery
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:42:58 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0194_01BE3363.700F91C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Somebody was wondering why Red Caboose  had not done their 4/3/1 end 40' =
XM in PRR. It is planned as a riveted car w/ 8' door to be on the =
shelves Feb 99 as RC-8702. See RMC  Feb '99 issue bottom right page 99. =
Don't know if it will be CK, SK or PK. Hopefully eventually all three.

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0194_01BE3363.700F91C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Somebody was wondering why Red =
Caboose&nbsp; had=20
not done their 4/3/1 end 40' XM in PRR. It is planned as a riveted car =
w/ 8'=20
door to be on the shelves Feb 99 as RC-8702. See <EM>RMC&nbsp;</EM> Feb =
'99=20
issue bottom right page 99. Don't know if it will be CK, SK or PK. =
Hopefully=20
eventually all three.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Al</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0194_01BE3363.700F91C0--


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: [PRR] Fw: Pssst.   Wanna buy a sleeper?
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:30:03 -0500

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Randall D. Gustafson <scdemail@stoneconsulting.com>
>To: Bill Schafer <gwschafe@nscorp.com>; Danny Boehr <dannyb2@cris.com>;
Dick
>Gruber <trainlin@bankpds.com>; John Hedrick <johedrick@juno.com>; Larry De
>Young <larrydeyoung@prodigy.net>; Marc Chappo <chappo@ct.picker.com>; Peter
>Barton <pdb1854@aol.com>; Terry Kranz <dunbar@mato.com>; Thorn Mead
><ThornM@aol.com>
>Date: Thursday, December 24, 1998 12:59 PM
>Subject: Pssst. Wanna buy a sleeper?
>
>
>>Amtrak has two 11-bedroom sleepers up for competitive phone bid auction;
>>the 10020 "Miami Beach" (ex Pullman/UP), and the 10021 "Elm Grove" (ex
Budd
>>CB&Q).   Both cars are in Bear, Delaware.   Call B(arb?) Hastings (215)
>>349-1192 (Amtrak) for more information; the cars go out on Jan. 28.  Both
>>cars look like they have just been rehabbed.  Call me if you want a fax of
>>the bid offer.   Bid increments are in $2500 units; my experience is that
>>sleepers have been going really, really, cheap unless one of the luxury
>>charter operations wants one bad.
>>
>>Randy Gustafson
>>SC&D
>>(814) 726-9870
>


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From: "Thomas K. Trower" <tktrower@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] 1361 status
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:00:59 -0500

What is the current status of PRR 1361? Will she be ready for service in 99?


-Josh Trower


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:51:01 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E/E&P roundhouses

Jerry Shickler wrote:
> 
> Besides Erie, what towns had roundhouses on the P&E and E&P branches?
> I'm hoping to be able to model both branches & need to decide where to
> terminate.  Thanks!

To clarify:
E&P = Erie & Pittsburgh
P&E = Philadelphia & Erie
Era = Hoping to stay in the '40s, but want the earliest diesels. This
brings up a question I've asked before, but no one seems have an answer:
Does anyone know what in year and what classes were the first diesels to
serve Erie.  PRR had quite a few in the '40s, but the Elmira branch,
which I would think had similar motive power, didn't see them until the
mid '50s.
-- 
Jerry Shickler
e-mail: geshick@velocity.net
Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:18:47 -0600
Subject: [PRR] GHQ Kato Mikado L-1 Conversion kit
From: locoshop@juno.com

Hello all,

I am looking to obtain any pointers out there that anyone may have on the
N-scale GHQ L-1 conversion kits.  I have just received 2 from Action
Hobbies and want to make these brass quality models (shoot they cost $195
per engine for the Kato and the conversion kit).  Any pointers would be
greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

Jeremy Helms
Omaha, Nebraska
locoshop@juno.com

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: [PRR] Fw: Christmas Trains
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:17:30 -0500

This is not directly PRR related. I received it today from a friend. Thought
you guys might like it.

Al
>>>   The big news in railroading last year, this year, and probably next
>>>year is the breakup of Conrail.  To Commemorate this event, Lyin'L
>presents the
>>>following additions to it's line of authentic model trains.  As an added
>>>bonus, you get a free Lyin'L patch with every purchase of $50.00 or
>>>more.
>>>These collectible patches are the perfect way to cover up those
>>>embarrassing "Zero hero" logos on your Conrail jackets.
>>>
>>>SOUTH KEARNY INTERMODAL SET  $189.95  Our best seller from the River
>>>Line Collection is back, this time with even more trains!  You'll tear
>your
>>>hair out in frustration.
>>>
>>>CLEVELAND JUNCTION SET-$199.99  Recreate the postmerger action at
>>>"ground zero"! Try to keep the CSX and NS trains moving around a figure
>eight >>track layout.Set includes crossover track with tower and two stop
>signals.
>>>
>>>CLEVELAND JUNCTION ADD-ON SET  $79.95  Set features a by-pass track and
>>>two model houses.  Run your trains over the bypass to avoid congestion,
>but
>>>do it too often and angry homeowners pop out of the houses.  Set includes
>an
>>>assortment of local politicians.
>>>
>>>NS AND CSX COAL HOPPER SET  $29.95  Let's face it, without the coal
>>>revenue, CSX and NS would be a pair of rinky-dink regionals.  This
limited
>boxed
>>>set of two hopper cars commemorates the secret of their success.  Cars
>include
>>>genuine loads of "Chessie" brand kitty litter, and "Thorobred" brand
horse
>manure.
>>>
>>>CONRAIL COMMEMORATIVE BOXCAR  $19.95  An authentic replica of a
>>>Pennsylvania X-58 boxcar, painted Penn Central green with Conrail logo
and
>"NYC"
>>>initials.
>>>
>>>CONRAIL STOCKHOLDER ACTION FIGURE  $8.95  Wind it up and watch it laugh
>>>all the way to the bank.
>>>
>>>SURFACE TRANSPORTATION BOARD PLAYSET  $19.95  Includes chairperson,
>>>vice-chairman, an empty chair, and an official S.T.B. rubber stamp.
>>>
>>>ACTION C.E.O. PLAYSET  $39.95  Re-live the famous battle for control of
>>>Conrail.  Set features three C.E.O. action figures, each authentic in
>>>every detail, right down to the stuffed shirt and big head.  Also
includes
>two
>>>dozen
>>>assorted vice-presidents, a big bag o' lawyers, twelve billion in play
>>>money, and a 17,000 page instruction manual.
>>>
>>>"SORRY" BOARD GAME  $14.95  In this updated version of the classic board
>>>game, players move all over the country, bumping each other as they try
to
>>>avoid landing on the dreaded "NS" square.  The last player to still have
a
>job
>>>in his home terminal wins.
>>>
>>>Lyin'L-  Model trains that just sit there like the real thing
>>>
>>>Merry Christmas!!!!
>>
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:53:32 -0800
From: Roger Elliott <relliott@mail.telis.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] GHQ Kato Mikado L-1 Conversion kit

Hi Jeremy,
I found that if I used really tiny grain of wheat bulbs and a suitable
resistor, I could drill out the headlight and put in the bulb!  I also
bought two kits and each one had the headlight either in front of the
smokestack or the boiler.  It works great.  I also found that I got a
nice press fit of the boiler and cab by putting pieces of black
electrician's tape on the motor assembly.  For glue, I found that
JB-Weld holds things together very well.  Don't throw away the
staunchions and railings from the Kato locos.  I just drilled the
appopriate holes and put in the Kato staunchions.  By filing down the
sides of a MT coupler, I could put one on the front.

Hope ths helps!
Cheers,
Roger Elliott


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: [PRR] Fw: [FC] PRR H21a coal hopper 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:13:25 -0600

Many of you know of Jim Six, one of model railroading's more prolific
authors. He has offered up his recently completed Bowser H21 for
constructive criticism on the Freight Car List.  You can view his model at
http://www.csxfan.railfan.net/ .  On the menu click on "Jim Six's models".
He has some diesel models, too, but the one of interest to us is the H21.
The computer really makes it up close and personal.  You can almost feel the
coal dust.  Makes me wonder how my work would stand up under that kind of
scrutiny.  Check it out.
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Six <jimsix@ncweb.com>
To: memra@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU <memra@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU>;
nemRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU <nemRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU>; freight cars
<freightcars@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu>
Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 3:36 PM
Subject: [FC] PRR H21a coal hopper


>I just completed a Bowser H21a quad hopper car in the circle keystone paint
>scheme.  I have made two scans of the model and both came out really nice.
>One is a 400dpi (209k) scan and the other a 600dpi (452k) scan.  The 400dpi
>scan shows most everything well, even when you zoom in and scroll around.
>However, the 600 dpi scan clearly resolves the smallest of lettering and
>shows every rivet very clearly.
>
>I offer either scan to anybody that wished so see them.  The model is
>detailed with formed wire grabs and braces, has coupler cut levers,
>trainline air hoses, etc, etc., and it has been weathered.  What I am
>looking for in return are critiques.  Tell me what is not accurate, what
was
>not done well, what and how I could do better next time.
>
>On a hopper car craze!
>Jim Six
>
>
>


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From: "Jim Six" <jimsix@ncweb.com>
Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] PRR H21a coal hopper 
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:56:19 -0500

Thanks Steve,

Late last night after that scan was made I noted that I had forgotten the
nut/bolt/washer castings for the grab irons.  I went back and drilled all
the needed holes, added the nut/bolt/washers and touched up the paint.  Now
I am satisfied!

I have more PRR models in the works.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Hoxie <steveh@dotstar.net>
To: PRR Talk List <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Cc: jimsix@ncweb.com <jimsix@ncweb.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 11:10 PM
Subject: Fw: [FC] PRR H21a coal hopper


>Many of you know of Jim Six, one of model railroading's more prolific
>authors. He has offered up his recently completed Bowser H21 for
>constructive criticism on the Freight Car List.  You can view his model at
>http://www.csxfan.railfan.net/ .  On the menu click on "Jim Six's models".
>He has some diesel models, too, but the one of interest to us is the H21.
>The computer really makes it up close and personal.  You can almost feel
the
>coal dust.  Makes me wonder how my work would stand up under that kind of
>scrutiny.  Check it out.
>Steve Hoxie
>Pensacola FL
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Six <jimsix@ncweb.com>
>To: memra@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU <memra@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU>;
>nemRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU <nemRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU>; freight cars
><freightcars@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu>
>Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 3:36 PM
>Subject: [FC] PRR H21a coal hopper
>
>
>>I just completed a Bowser H21a quad hopper car in the circle keystone
paint
>>scheme.  I have made two scans of the model and both came out really nice.
>>One is a 400dpi (209k) scan and the other a 600dpi (452k) scan.  The
400dpi
>>scan shows most everything well, even when you zoom in and scroll around.
>>However, the 600 dpi scan clearly resolves the smallest of lettering and
>>shows every rivet very clearly.
>>
>>I offer either scan to anybody that wished so see them.  The model is
>>detailed with formed wire grabs and braces, has coupler cut levers,
>>trainline air hoses, etc, etc., and it has been weathered.  What I am
>>looking for in return are critiques.  Tell me what is not accurate, what
>was
>>not done well, what and how I could do better next time.
>>
>>On a hopper car craze!
>>Jim Six
>>
>>
>>
>
>


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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:50:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: [PRR] various roamings

I did some exploring in Western PA today along lines past and present:
-Finally figured out how the Turtle Creek branch ran east of Delmont; The
reservoir had me confused, but the right of way is apparently still there
and was in plain sight....
-Went looking for the Blairsville tunnel Bob Netzlof mentioned some time
ago, and when I found it, realized I'd seen it before but it just hadn't
registered. Then, got to see something coming east on the Conemaugh head
down (toward) into it.

Headed further east, armed with a Delorme atlas and the ~1945 Cambria and
Clearfield map on page 180 of Triumph 1.

-Viewed various portions of the Cresson, Black Lick, Susquehanna Extension
(the eastern mouth of the tunnel under US 219 is pretty plain, though I
didn't go back in to look if it's been covered over or not), and Irvona
branches. 
-Failed to find much to speak of of the Bellwood branch, but my theory is
the portion up the hill from Bellwood is now PA 865. Seems kinda steep
though.
-Then wandered over to the Clearfield branch and various sub-branches
(there were a lot:-); Had better luck there, but the "horse shoe curve" on
the portion of the line down the hill to Vail is sufficiently far from the
road and the weather sufficiently bad that I just kept driving...

This was at least partially "scouting" because my layout room should be
ready very soon, but I still have no good ideas as to what I'm going to do
with it! 

It took me a while to understand it, but it makes sense now why e.g.
Irvona was served by two different routes diverging from the main in
different places, and the other cases of branches coming back together
near their outer ends... As new colleries opened, the existing lines were
extended to serve them. Eventually, lines started coming together, and
there was no reason not to join them...

What I am curious about is maps. Are there are good maps available showing
the extent of PRR branches, system-wide or otherwise? The C&C map I cited
in Triumph 1 is good, but being circa 1945 is obviously not complete, and
of course only helps in that area. There are other maps in Triumph, and I
assume if I could get to Hagley I'd find a wealth of material... but it
would be nice if there were some "single source" one could buy with some
substantial coverage.

Perhaps I'm dreaming. Perhaps it's a project for me once I have time
(read: once I have my degree). Perhaps this headache is getting to me and
it's time for bed:-)


Good night...

-D



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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 02:20:14 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower gone, now the sig bridge also..??!!!

In a message dated 98-12-29 15:54:59 EST, you write:

<< 
 So " MO" is gone and so is the signal bridge !
 
 Bill Knepper
  >>
***Thanks, Bill....Hey Rich, Better ask fer $ 50.00 each, we got _more_ work
to do ..!!! Bill*****

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From: ATSF01@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 02:14:40 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [FC] PRR H21a coal hopper

HI Jim Six

I always look forward to seeing your quality models.

Smile 
Ken Patterson

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 03:07:17 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Red

In a message dated 12/30/98 1:34:56 AM Central Standard Time,
ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes:

<< What color (model paint mix/match) was the freight car red (FCR) just
 before the darker "standardized" color (as per the PRRT&HS FCR color
 drift card bearing a 1952 date) was adopted?  >>

Let's see, there are how many people on this list? 250?  You will get 250
different responses as to the color on a new car,  much less the weathered
color.
However, FWIW, I used to use Procolor Western Maryland Oxide Red.  When that
became scarce, I switched to a 50-50 mix of Polly-Scale Special Oxide Red and
Zinc Chromate primer.
This last will scare the devil out of you when you first apply it. Your
beautiful model will at first look decidedly orange.  However, it dries to a
reasonable approximation of some people's (my) idea of freight car color.

Bob Zoeller
Fox Point, WI

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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:40:41 -0800
From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com
Subject: [PRR] Freight Car Red

Greetings,

I'm taking Jerry's advice and posting the following question to the list
since it hasn't been discussed the way DGLE and Tuscan Red have been in
the past.  So, here goes....

What color (model paint mix/match) was the freight car red (FCR) just
before the darker "standardized" color (as per the PRRT&HS FCR color
drift card bearing a 1952 date) was adopted?  Specifically, I'm looking
for the FCR used on Merchandise Service cars up to that time, and as
specific a date as possible for the switchover to get shop marks/dates
correct on models.

According to what I've read, the second of the three MS paint schemes
was in use at the time, and the switch to the standardized FCR took
place right in the middle of that time frame.  If, as I'm told, the Red
Caboose X29 lighter shade of FCR is correct for the time applied, was
that the same color used on the MS cars before the change? 
(Notwithstanding batch mix and supplier variations, of course.)

Any help is greatly appreciated.

TIA,
Chuck Friedlein

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From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 02:52:43 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower

In a message dated 98-12-29 21:36:52 EST, you write:

<< < Rich needs something to do during the cold PA  winter, anyway..??!!!
HNY, Bill*** >>
 
 "Rich" will be busting his ass doing people's income taxes, in
 addition to the 40 hours at the RR.  But "Rich" will be willing
 to make a substantial cash contribution once he sees the
 restored tower in place!!
  >>******oooops, I meant " Rich=the idea originator, ex= Bel-Del RR'er Rich
Ader....butt....nice to know we gotta tax man around to figure donation angles
and write=offs. Ya get any tips from the CR accountants on doing dat..??hahah,
bill***

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Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose 4/3/1 in PRR livery
From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 09:08:05 -0500

That should make it an accurate X-43c.

regards,
Andy Miller
===========
Somebody was wondering why Red Caboose  had not done their 4/3/1 end 40' XM in
PRR. It is planned as a riveted car w/ 8' door to be on the shelves Feb 99 as
RC-8702. See RMC  Feb '99 issue bottom right page 99. Don't know if it will be
CK, SK or PK. Hopefully eventually all three.

Al


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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:59:22 -0500 (EST)


Al,
one question on your nice summary.

> >time if the traffic warranted. I also think some of it may have been used
> to
> >appease the brotherhoods. A closed block station could always be reopened,

If I recall my American History, the brotherhoods were reasonably newly
formed in 1920, and the right to strike not yet firmly established (was there
not a strike brutally put down in Boston around then?  and Reuther's beating
by goons from Ford, was it?, was even later).  At any rate, they certainly
did not have much power back then!

Now, closings would certainly have riled the workers, and just such lousy
worker conditions / worker firings led to the 187_ Pittsburgh riot, when there
*definitely* were not brotherhoods...

It's a real difficulty, doing this stuff ... we all tend to look at history
through our modern eyes, in our modern context ...

--
Mark


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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:41:26 -0500 (EST)

Jerry scrivit:
> 
> I'm in search of a PRR prototype for an interlocking plant I need for my 
> model railroad.
> There will be four tracks with the "standard" PRR interlock. 
> Additionally, there will be a fifth track entering each end of the 
> interlocking, from opposing sides, to bring trains in from staging.
> 
> Here is what I need:
> 
> staging____
> ___________\_____________________________________WB freight
> __________________\_____________/________________EB freight
> ______________________\_____/____________________WB pass
> __________________/_____________\________________EB pass
>                       tower           \____staging

You sure you want to limit it to this layout? As I see it, this
easily allows _entering_ staging yards in both E/B and W/B directions,
but not _exiting_ those yards without some terribly funny-looking
operations for a 4-track main!  How 'bout:

> staging________________________________staging
> ___________\_______________________/_____________WB freight
> __________________\_____________/________________EB freight
> ______________________\_____/____________________WB pass
> __________________/_____________\________________EB pass
> staging_____/___________________________\____staging
>                       tower

with the outer tracks being industrial, etc.

CORK does not quite fit the above, but with compression, could
be made to do so -- and it had industrial tracks on either side
of it.

> The passenger tracks and freight tracks are paired, as they will have 
> just come through a wall after passing HARRIS tower in Harrisburg. This 
> is how they ran there.

Another: your E/B and W/B designations: are they as shown only on the
eastern end of this interlocking, as shown, or do they apply on
both sides?  Are you modelling HARRIS and east, or west?


Another thing to consider, and typically Pennsy, is an UNION-style
kind of interlocking, i.e.:

(This requires a constant-width font, like Courier, to see it
properly in your browser.)

>                                _________________WB freight
> ______________________________/   _\___.
> ____________\_____________/______/______._______EB freight
> ________________\_____/__________________.______WB pass
> ____________/_____________\___    _\___.  .
>                               \__/______.__.____EB pass
>                                          .  .
>                                           \  \____ staging
>                                            \______ staging

I'm showing the staging tracks ducking down and to the side, but of
course, for a layout, they could _simply_ duck down to the next lower
level!

Jerry, this arrangement has the same problem as your original, which
is that you can't stage an exiting E/B or entering W/B.  Some other
solution would have to be found for that, i.e., other than backing
up a "local freight" out of the upper staging track, across the
W/B freight track, onto some "industrial lead", then suddenly having
that "local" turn into TT-4.  One potential solution is to model
LANE to the right of this, but oriented in reverse, with the
LANE's freight tracks (staging, on the model) rejoining the main
E/B rather than W/B.  Alternatively, loop the staging around the room
and model MORRIS to the left of this, with duckunders rather than
flyovers, unless you want a graded track out of staging, rising
above the main, to achieve elevation for MORRIS.  But for your
limited room, that's crazy.  (Probably.)

Another solution is to do both halves of the Frankford Jct. area,
widely separated.  This does not have the glory of duckunders or
flyovers, but because of the _prototype_ arrangement, can justify
crossing a train across the whole damn main to get it to where
it's going.  (On my site, review the maps for SHORE and FORD; look
either at the Phila. page or the alphabetic index,
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_alpha.html )
SHORE is where the Atlantic City line comes off the main, and it
is only "half an interlocking", thus saving you space!  Basically,
it is something like this:

               SHORE                                 FORD
> _______________________________________________________________________
> ____________\_____________________________________________/____________
> ________________\______________________________________/_______________
> _____________\_______\______________________________/_____/____________ 
>           tower    \     \_______  staging   ____/    /
>                     \____________  staging   ________/

Of course, you'll have to decide how fancy to make the interlockings,
i.e., do you want _2_ parallel crossing paths available, or only 1?
The only thing that does not quite fit is PRR's track designations at
that point versus your desired designations -- but I personally believe
that model interlockings should, for nearly all models, be governed by
_model_ operational needs -- unless your PRIMARY premise is to recreate
the prototype track for track and operation for operation.  But I think
most modellers *primarily* want to recreate the flavor, using prototype
*elements* inasmuch as possible.

You could really go crazy by putting a 90-deg turn in on the model
between SHORE and FORD, like at a room corner, and a hefty speed
restriction; your room doesn't allow the staging area to veer off,
I believe, but if you could, this would add even more prototype
flavor.  The staging area would, of course, be "Frankford Jct Yard".

One final comment:  You said you reviewed the Philly Division maps for
4-track ideas.  HEY!  Don't forget that 4 tracks extended all the way
to ... er ... dare I mention it? ... um ... New Brighton
:-)

--
Mark

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:02:50 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking

In a message dated 12/30/98 10:15:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes:

> You sure you want to limit it to this layout? As I see it, this
>  easily allows _entering_ staging yards in both E/B and W/B directions,
>  but not _exiting_ those yards without some terribly funny-looking
>  operations for a 4-track main!  How 'bout:
>  
>  > staging________________________________staging
>  > ___________\_______________________/_____________WB freight
>  > __________________\_____________/________________EB freight
>  > ______________________\_____/____________________WB pass
>  > __________________/_____________\________________EB pass
>  > staging_____/___________________________\____staging
>  >                       tower
>  
>  with the outer tracks being industrial, etc.
>  
>  CORK does not quite fit the above, but with compression, could
>  be made to do so -- and it had industrial tracks on either side
>  of it.
>  
But PENN or Federal does.  This is basically the interlocking at PENN just
east of Island Avenue yard in Pittsburgh in the early 50's and nearly the same
as Federal at  the junction of the Connemaugh and Eastern Divisions at the
PFtW&C  Federal  Street station in Pittsburgh.

 PENN also controlled the yard throat.  PENN tower actually spanned the tracks
and Federal was east of the interlocking.

At Federal the tracks would be industrial siding & switching lead, Eastern EB
freight and Pass.  Connemaugh EB freight & Passanger, Connemaugh WB Frt &
Pass, Eastern WB frt & Passenger, Station switching & frt house lead.


Rich Orr

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Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 11:04:50 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/30/98 9:41 AM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:

>> staging____
>> ___________\_____________________________________WB freight
>> __________________\_____________/________________EB freight
>> ______________________\_____/____________________WB pass
>> __________________/_____________\________________EB pass
>>                       tower           \____staging
>
>You sure you want to limit it to this layout? As I see it, this
>easily allows _entering_ staging yards in both E/B and W/B directions,
>but not _exiting_ those yards without some terribly funny-looking
>operations for a 4-track main!  How 'bout:

What is not shown is that once these staging tracks leave the visible 
interlocking area, they descend out of sight, in opposite directions, and 
remeet, facing each other, on a lower level. They join a complete oval on 
the lower level, which features two full yards (one 24' long, one 14' 
long) and a reversing loop.

This allows a train on the lower level to enter the upper level in either 
direction. Trains can exit the upper level in either direction.

>Another: your E/B and W/B designations: are they as shown only on the
>eastern end of this interlocking, as shown, or do they apply on
>both sides?  Are you modelling HARRIS and east, or west?

Noth sides. In the drawing, HARRIS is to right of the diagram, just 
through a wall. Travelling to the left, the tracks keep the same 
designations and remain out of sight for about 15'. They then appear at 
Paxton Street south of Harrisburg, just prior to entering the Harrisburg 
station.

On my layout, I will not have much for "main line running". The whole 
setup is geared towards the Harrisburg station being "center stage" for 
tons of passing trains and local switching (loco exchanges, passenger car 
moves, head end equipment moves, etc.)...a dispatcher's dream (and 
nightmare!).

By placing the entrance/exit of staging and interlocking in the next 
room, I can model an area not prototypical of Harrisburg as well as 
"invite" family room guests to become interested in the model railroad in 
its own room. With the door to the train room closed, family room 
occupants are watching a busy four-track main and MO (?) interlocking.


------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com     Member, PRRT&HS
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:40:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's

On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Mark Bej wrote:

> Now, closings would certainly have riled the workers, and just such lousy
> worker conditions / worker firings led to the 187_ Pittsburgh riot, when there
> *definitely* were not brotherhoods...

1877. The old Union Station and a roundhouse at 28th street were burned,
and there was much looting...

-D



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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:55:31 -0500
From: Brian Brooks <steelfan@ohio.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking

At 11:02 AM 12/30/98 EST, you wrote:

> PENN also controlled the yard throat.  PENN tower actually spanned the tracks

A tower that is begging to be modeled!  Has anyone done it?  (See "Pennsy in
the Steel City" page 43.)

Brian


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:46:18 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Red

In a message dated 12/30/98 3:31:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com
writes:

> << What color (model paint mix/match) was the freight car red (FCR) just
>   before the darker "standardized" color (as per the PRRT&HS FCR color
>   drift card bearing a 1952 date) was adopted?  >>
>  
The official color was Iron sesquioxide a naturally occurring pigment.  The
problem as previously stated on this list is that the pigment varies greatly
by locality.  Thus each paint shop in reality had a variant of the color.  As
I have paraphrased my grandfather a 51 yr PRR employee in the past -- with
experience you could identify the paint shop by color of the car.  Iron
sesquioxide is much more orange than the post 53 synthetic pigment color.
Currently I am using badger's light tuscan oxide and reefer orange in a 7:2
mixture.

Rich Orr

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Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 12:47:40 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/30/98 12:23 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:

>Wait.  Besides the staging yards proper, (which I understood, as you
>said, to be below this level), is the _entire interlocking_ out of sight?
>(You're saying "remain out of sight" ...)

No. The interlocking is visible...in the form of a shelf in the family 
room. The main train room is behind the wall behind the interlocking. The 
remainder of the "racetrack" (if you want to call it that) is in the 
train room. About 15' of the main is covered by the Harrisburg Loco 
Terminal which sits slightly above it.

See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/design8.html

To answer your next question: The entrance to the train room is at the 
interlocking. It will be a duckunder and a pocket door will be used to 
avoid swing in either direction. By leaving the door open during 
operating sessions, operators in the train room will be able to look 
outward at the interlocking plant. Also, I will be using DCC with block 
detection. I will have a model board mounted in the train room which 
indicates occupancy on all approach tracks and within the interlocking, 
as well as duplicate signal indications.
>
>> On my layout, I will not have much for "main line running". The whole 
>
>(unless your upper level goes thru a wall, down a steep grade, and becomes
>the lower level ... :-) :-)

No. Main line is fairly flat. The staging level is also flat. The two 
ramps between will have a grade of approx. 1" over 4'.

OPERATIONS:

Because I am modeling passenger operations, every train will be stopping 
at the station... other than the 6-8 freights that passed through HBG in 
a 24-hour period. Therefore, it's not a big deal to create a block in the 
interlocking plant to switch, for instance, a westbound freight from 
staging onto the main (crossing all four tracks). A lot of switching in 
the interlocking plant might entertain novice viewers more.

The majority of the action will be all of the moves at the station.

If I just want to run trains and not "operate", I can forgo the staging 
level and its approach tracks and use the four-track main as "race 
tracks".


------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com     Member, PRRT&HS
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:23:11 -0500 (EST)

Jerry scrivit:
> 
> On 12/30/98 9:41 AM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:
> 
> >> staging____
> >> ___________\_____________________________________WB freight
> >> __________________\_____________/________________EB freight
> >> ______________________\_____/____________________WB pass
> >> __________________/_____________\________________EB pass
> >>                       tower           \____staging
> >
> >You sure you want to limit it to this layout? As I see it, this
> >easily allows _entering_ staging yards in both E/B and W/B directions,
> >but not _exiting_ those yards without some terribly funny-looking
> >operations for a 4-track main!  How 'bout:
> 
> What is not shown is that once these staging tracks leave the visible 
> interlocking area, they descend out of sight, in opposite directions, and 
> remeet, facing each other, on a lower level. They join a complete oval on 
> the lower level, which features two full yards (one 24' long, one 14' 
> long) and a reversing loop.
> This allows a train on the lower level to enter the upper level in either 
> direction. Trains can exit the upper level in either direction.

Of course, understood this the first time around.

My point is that, with the above arrangement, only _leaving_ the main
is easy and reasonably prototypical.  But how about a westbound freight
_entering_ the main?  You have to either:
 - enter the lower staging track and cross over the _whole_ main, or
 - enter the upper staging track, back onto the main, then pull forward
Both seem, to me, nonideal.


> >Another: your E/B and W/B designations: are they as shown only on the
> >eastern end of this interlocking, as shown, or do they apply on
> >both sides?  Are you modelling HARRIS and east, or west?
> 
> Noth sides. In the drawing, HARRIS is to right of the diagram, just 
> through a wall. Travelling to the left, the tracks keep the same 
> designations and remain out of sight for about 15'. They then appear at 
> Paxton Street south of Harrisburg, just prior to entering the Harrisburg 
> station.

Wait.  Besides the staging yards proper, (which I understood, as you
said, to be below this level), is the _entire interlocking_ out of sight?
(You're saying "remain out of sight" ...)


> On my layout, I will not have much for "main line running". The whole 

(unless your upper level goes thru a wall, down a steep grade, and becomes
the lower level ... :-) :-)




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Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 13:15:06 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/30/98 11:55 AM, Brian Brooks (steelfan@ohio.net) wrote:

>> PENN also controlled the yard throat.  PENN tower actually spanned the 
tracks
>
>A tower that is begging to be modeled!  Has anyone done it?  (See "Pennsy in
>the Steel City" page 43.)

I don't have that booklet nearby. Is that the one where the yard is to 
the left and the tower is above one track and there's another track or 
two to the right? Kind of like a "stilt house"?

Sure would solve a problem for space-minded modelers!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com     Member, PRRT&HS
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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From: "Kevin Tully" <t1duplex@hotmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] I1's and coal, Mt. Carmel/Shamokin
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:25:20 PST

I am looking for photographs of I1, I1s, I1sa class locomotives 
pulling/pushing coal in the Mt. Carmel/Shamokin area.  I have the 
photo's in the books.  I'm looking for private, quality photographs that 
you would be will to make a copy of (I'll pay the cost) and send to me.  
Anyone?

Kevin

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Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of An Interlocking / Found?
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 14:17:54 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

Mark:

Ever looking to maintain my layout within the bounds of the Philadelphia 
Division, I think I have found a PRR interlocking prototype that can 
match the trackage I need for my model railroad.

As you know, I previously mentioned MO at Cresson. After perusing the 
diagrams on your site for the umpteenth time, I came to realize that, 
with a little tweaking, I can model CORK, at Lancaster.

The only hitch is that it would be modeled in the opposite direction. 
That is, trains would head west out of Harrisburg past HARRIS and appear 
at the west side of CORK travelling east! However, since the interlocking 
is only representational, I can live with it. 

<-TO STATE                                TO HARRIS->
                                        Columbia Branch (freight WB)
staging_____  CORK                     /  Columbia Branch (freight EB)
L_S_________\_________________________/ /
A_T_____________\______________/_______/
N_A________________\_______/_______________ Main Line (pass WB)
C____________________/__\__________________ Main Line (pass EB)
                                 \_________ staging (Reading int)

EB/WB DESIGNATIONS ABOVE ARE ON MY LAYOUT AND ARE OPPOSITE PROTOTYPE. 
OTHERWISE, TRACKAGE PATTERNS MATCH CORK INTERLOCKING IN LANCASTER.

Plus, it allows me to model catenary for running GG-1's. Imagine a GG-1 
heading south out of Harrisburg and then burning past MO without wire!!!

Here's the deal: Look at your interlocking diagram for CORK and flip it 
180 degrees. The Reading interchange would equate to my staging approach 
track. The two passenger mains would align with my two passenger tracks 
coming past HARRIS (in the next room). I can add some space between the 
passenger tracks and the freight tracks coming from the next room, thus 
simulating the twin freight tracks of the Columbia Branch reconnecting 
with the mainline!

Then I need to infer where track was in front of CORK tower. Your diagram 
is dated 1963. I am modeling 1954. I need four tracks through the 
interlocking. It would appear, from the way the diagram was made, that at 
one time there were four tracks through. I would add them back and do a 
full interlock. To provide the turnout to my staging approach at the 
other end, the alignment of the track labeled "0" would be used. The 
representation would end at CORK and would not extend through and include 
the station. I only have 14' to work with. (Although perhaps I could 
include one end of the station so I would have another stop on my line 
for commuter trains. Hmmm.)

Do you follow all of this? What do you think?

------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@dsop.com     Member, PRRT&HS
   Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954.
Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com 
   Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net!
   The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World!


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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:04:57 -0500
From: DjM <shazada@mis.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1's and coal, Mt. Carmel/Shamokin

Kevin Tully wrote:

> I am looking for photographs of I1, I1s, I1sa class locomotives
> pulling/pushing coal in the Mt. Carmel/Shamokin area.  I have the
> photo's in the books.  I'm looking for private, quality photographs that
> you would be will to make a copy of (I'll pay the cost) and send to me.
> Anyone?

Kevin,

Have you seen those posted on alt.binaries.pictures.rail?

-=D
--
David Mikulec
President, Ohio Central Lines
DT&I / Springfield Southern / IG&E Rwy
--
The DT&I Modelers Page
http://DTI.Railfan.net



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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:34:04 -0500

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
To: Alan Buchan <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's


>If I recall my American History, the brotherhoods were reasonably newly
>formed in 1920, and the right to strike not yet firmly established (was
there
>not a strike brutally put down in Boston around then?  and Reuther's
beating
>by goons from Ford, was it?, was even later).  At any rate, they certainly
>did not have much power back then!


>Now, closings would certainly have riled the workers, and just such lousy
>worker conditions / worker firings led to the 187_ Pittsburgh riot, when
there
>*definitely* were not brotherhoods...
>
>It's a real difficulty, doing this stuff ... we all tend to look at history
>through our modern eyes, in our modern context ...
>Mark


Re your comments about brotherhoods and labor-management relations see
below:

1863 - Locomotive Engineers Brotherhood established
1868 - Conductors Brotherhood established
1873 - Firemen and Engineers Brotherhood established
1877 - Great national railroad strike
1883 - Trainmen Brotherhood established
1884 - Bureau of Labor established under U.S. Dept. Commerce
1892 - Steel mill strike Homestead, PA (non-railroad event)
1894 - Pullman strike in Chicago  (non-railroad event)
            Labor Day becomes a Federal Holiday
1913 - Bureau of Labor becomes Department of Labor
1919 - First great nationwide wave of strikes included first strike by
government
            employees (Boston PD)
1926 - Railway Labor Act (amended 1934 and 1951) was a model for the NLRA of
           1935.

It appears to me the beginnings of the brotherhoods were in place and the
blue collars in general were restless by the 1920s. No?  I'd say given the
events outlined any railroad labor relations executive worth his salt might
show just some concern.

Al


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From: Da72jmk@aol.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:38:17 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1's and coal, Mt. Carmel/Shamokin

Kevin, Cal's Classics (Bill Caloroso, the author of the Elmira Branch book)
has at least one photo of an I1 (#12392) at Shamokin--his photo number
PRR#167.  It's listed as a roster shot, so it may not show much of the overall
scene.

Note to Jerry and to Greg Stone:  Cal's Classics also lists several shots at
Harrisburg and at least one described as a "scene" shot of 2-10-0 # 4499 "in a
service area at Renova PA 4/7/57".

I have no connection to Cal's Classics other than as a satisfied customer and
fan of Bill's book.  His photos are nicely printed, and well
documented--usually with both the place and the date of the photo.  Overall,
he lists 428 PRR photos, including locomotives, stations, passenger, and
freight cars.  His 8 page list of PRR photos is free, although I'm sure he
would appreciate a SASE. 

The address is:
Cal's Classics
1058 E. River Rd.
Nichols, NY  13812

Hope this is helpful.   John Keel
---------------

In a message dated 12/30/98 2:20:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
t1duplex@hotmail.com writes:

<< I am looking for photographs of I1, I1s, I1sa class locomotives 
 pulling/pushing coal in the Mt. Carmel/Shamokin area.  I have the 
 photo's in the books.  I'm looking for private, quality photographs that 
 you would be will to make a copy of (I'll pay the cost) and send to me.  
 Anyone?
 
 Kevin >>

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Subject: [PRR] Guess Who I Found?
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 20:50:00 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

"PRR-Talk" veterans will know who he is. Novices may not. But I travelled 
across many states to find him. Only to find that he has returned to 
Pennsylvania. Who?

Bob Reed!

For those not in the know, Bob Reed published two periodicals in the 
1970s-80s that are now a de facto source when researching "things 
Pennsy". In 1984, Bob faced numerous crisis and, as others have described 
it, he abandoned all things railroad.

I'm pleased to report that, after a few tough years, Bob entered the 
ministry and has returned to Pennsylvania. He even attended RailFest this 
past year in Altoona -- if we'd only known!

Our (list members) reason for wanting to find him (a thread about a year 
ago) was regarding potential reprinting of his Rails Northeast and Pennsy 
Journal work on the Internet. It was known that he sold all of his back 
issue stock to Charlie Horan of the Philadelphia area. Charlie had stated 
that he also bought all of the rights and would not allow us to 
republish. Well, we do want to remain within copyright law, so what do 
you do when the publisher (Bob Reed) cannot be found and the claimant 
(Charlie Horan) cannot produce a piece of paper to back up his claim? You 
wait. The wait is over, but the answer isn't good. Bob writes:

"I did sell everything (except the name 'Rails Northeast' and 'Pennsy 
Journal'), to Charles Horan of Philadelphia. I sold all back issues, 
plates and negatives which are the basis of any reprinting. He does have 
exclusive rights to all that I ever published between 1973 and 1985. I 
personally delivered a step van to his home with all the inventory. I 
subsequently gave away boxes and boxes of related PRR documents, records, 
drawings, and thousands of photos that I acquired, purchased, or took 
myself. I gave away over 40,000 slides that I personally shot."

Well, that says it all. We're out of luck. Can you imagine...he gave away 
over 40,000 slides!

Anyway, Bob is doing well. Please, in respect for his privacy, I will not 
release his address or e-mail address. I have invited him to join the 
list but that choice is his. He had his reasons for leaving our beloved 
hobby...allow him to come back on his terms. Thank you!

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1's and coal, Mt. Carmel/Shamokin
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 20:36:51 -0600

Kevin,

I have a 8X10 B&W glossy of 4481 and another I1 at the engine servicing area
in Shamokin in the early 50's.  I would be happy to have it copied and send
it to you, but first I suggest you try J.R. Quinn, Railroad Photography, P.
O. Box 65, Worcester, N. Y. 12197, stamped on the back of the photo.  I got
the photo from a vendor at the PRRT&HS convention in Wilmington a few years
ago.  I also have a 8X10 B&W glossy of two I1's pushing on the Shamokin
Branch in 1955.  Can't read the engine numbers, but they are pushing on N5
cabin 477184, which seems to be the only cabin ever photographed on the
branch, this time in shadow keystone paint.  The first I1 has a 210F82
tender (with a three man doghouse!);  now that is a subject which has been
on the list before.  The second I1 has a 130F82, also not the most common
configuration.  Good shot, lots of black smoke.  This photo came from Bob
Lorenz, 1939 Whittaker Drive, Fremont, Ohio, 43420, and is his negative
number I-30.  I ordered it from an extensive catalog he had a few years ago.
Try both of those folks for these and any other shots.  I also suggest you
get the video "The Ore Train" from Penn Valley Pictures.  You can check them
out at http://www.pennvalleypictures.com .  Have fun!

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Tully <t1duplex@hotmail.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 1:43 PM
Subject: [PRR] I1's and coal, Mt. Carmel/Shamokin


>I am looking for photographs of I1, I1s, I1sa class locomotives
>pulling/pushing coal in the Mt. Carmel/Shamokin area.  I have the
>photo's in the books.  I'm looking for private, quality photographs that
>you would be will to make a copy of (I'll pay the cost) and send to me.
>Anyone?
>
>Kevin
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
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>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>


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Subject: [PRR] Apology re: Bob Reid
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 06:28:59 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

With an apology to Bob and the list, my post about his whereabouts 
included a miss-spelling of his name...it is Bob Reid (not Reed).

Thanks to Dan Cupper for pointing this error out.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 13:29:48 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/31/98 1:09 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:

>> Because I am modeling passenger operations, every train will be stopping 
>> at the station... other than the 6-8 freights that passed through HBG in 
>> a 24-hour period. Therefore, it's not a big deal to create a block in the 
>
>How 'bout making that spot Rockville?
>I'm looking at your map 
>http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/images/8_main.jpeg
>
>Might I even be so bold as to propose that you modify the location
>where it goes thru the wall on the left side?  Is this possible?
>
No. See below.
>
>ROCKVILLE is great in that it already has the psgr-psgr-frt-frt
>pattern you want [Prototype!].
>
Agreed.
>
>1) to the right of the interlocking, move the staging access track
>to the top of the interlocking.  Ducking it down may or may not
>be a problem, though.  See other suggestions below.
>
Only -- not negotiable -- have a 14" shelf to work with. That's not 
enough to allow side clearances for a track to rise or fall when 5 tracks 
are involved. The staging track MUST be on the side it is on because when 
it enters the next room it will be behind the backdrop.
>
>3) Remaining tracks are turned _in_ the family room, past the
>outside corner, _then_ into the wall lower "down" the map,
>then turning as they do.  This is just how ROCKVILLE looks
>[Prototype!]  If you want/can (not limited by doors, etc.),
>you could run the tracks "south" (mapwise) to the _right_
>of the N/S wall, rather than to its left as now shown, and
>model Rockville Bridge (!), before turning on the "west side
>of the river" into the wall.
>
>    staging _____     _________staging
>          _______\___/____________ frt
>         / ____________\__________ frt
> (*)    / / ______________\_______ psgr
>    \  / / / ________________\____ psgr
>    | / / / /
>     \| | | |
>      | | | |
>      |\| | |
>      | |\| |
>      | | | |
>      | | |\|
>      | | | |
>      | | | |\
>      | | | | \
>      f f p p  (*)
>
>(*) added for appearance only.

This also cannot -- non negotiable -- be done. The area where you have 
the ROCKVILLE Bridge crossovers is where the recessed entertainment 
center resides in the family room. I have an allowance ("marital 
easement") for one shelf the width of the room (14') and 14" wide.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:09:48 -0500 (EST)

> Because I am modeling passenger operations, every train will be stopping 
> at the station... other than the 6-8 freights that passed through HBG in 
> a 24-hour period. Therefore, it's not a big deal to create a block in the 

OK, here's a thought.

Your plans have changed since last time I gave your layout any serious
thought, so forgive any faux pas.  [note that, in the original French,
the latter phrase is conveniently both singular and plural!]

How 'bout making that spot Rockville?
I'm looking at your map 
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/images/8_main.jpeg

Might I even be so bold as to propose that you modify the location
where it goes thru the wall on the left side?  Is this possible?

Here was my thought.

Ideally, you'd want somewhere close to Harrisburg.  SHORE/FORD are
less than ideal, UNION/LANE even less so, FEDERAL too, etc.

ROCKVILLE is great in that it already has the psgr-psgr-frt-frt
pattern you want [Prototype!].

How to do it?

1) to the right of the interlocking, move the staging access track
to the top of the interlocking.  Ducking it down may or may not
be a problem, though.  See other suggestions below.

2) Staging access track upper left will become the Buffalo main.
No change in how it goes.

3) Remaining tracks are turned _in_ the family room, past the
outside corner, _then_ into the wall lower "down" the map,
then turning as they do.  This is just how ROCKVILLE looks
[Prototype!]  If you want/can (not limited by doors, etc.),
you could run the tracks "south" (mapwise) to the _right_
of the N/S wall, rather than to its left as now shown, and
model Rockville Bridge (!), before turning on the "west side
of the river" into the wall.

Is this clear?  If need be, I could do a quick gif...

4) If you arrange the interlocking well, you can extend the
staging track to the right.  This is true whether or not you
accept/implement my ROCKVILLE idea as per #3.  I suggest as
closer to prototype:

  staging___________    _____staging
  _____________*\___\__/_____________
  ________________/_____\____________
  ______________/_________\__________
  ____________/_____________\________

(*): your choice of location

Note that the staging track as you have it now is less
efficient than it could be: it could enter near the
"middle" of the itlk. and still take advantage of the
"\" crossovers.  The RR would typically do this to take
advantage of the extra switching length.  Note that the "/"
crossovers are useless to that track, so entering the itlk.
'outside' them is not of any benefit to anyone.

If you decide to do #3, and perhaps even if you do not, you
could do this:

    staging _____     _________staging
          _______\___/____________ frt
         / ____________\__________ frt
 (*)    / / ______________\_______ psgr
    \  / / / ________________\____ psgr
    | / / / /
     \| | | |
      | | | |
      |\| | |
      | |\| |
      | | | |
      | | |\|
      | | | |
      | | | |\
      | | | | \
      f f p p  (*)

(*) added for appearance only.

Granted it spreads out the itlk, but oh the beauty of Rockville
Bridge!


--
Crazy Mark

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of An Interlocking / Found?
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:20:29 -0500 (EST)

> Ever looking to maintain my layout within the bounds of the Philadelphia 
> Division, I think I have found a PRR interlocking prototype that can 
> match the trackage I need for my model railroad.
> As you know, I previously mentioned MO at Cresson. After perusing the 
> diagrams on your site for the umpteenth time, I came to realize that, 
> with a little tweaking, I can model CORK, at Lancaster.

Ahem.

!

I suggested CORK, actually, yesterday or the day before!  Just slightly
differently than you've done it below.


> The only hitch is that it would be modeled in the opposite direction. 

Yes.

> That is, trains would head west out of Harrisburg past HARRIS and appear 
> at the west side of CORK travelling east! However, since the interlocking 
> is only representational, I can live with it. 
> 
> <-TO STATE                                TO HARRIS->
>                                         Columbia Branch (freight WB)
> staging_____  CORK                     /  Columbia Branch (freight EB)
> L_S_________\_________________________/ /
> A_T_____________\______________/_______/
> N_A________________\_______/_______________ Main Line (pass WB)
> C____________________/__\__________________ Main Line (pass EB)
>                                  \_________ staging (Reading int)
> 
> EB/WB DESIGNATIONS ABOVE ARE ON MY LAYOUT AND ARE OPPOSITE PROTOTYPE. 
> OTHERWISE, TRACKAGE PATTERNS MATCH CORK INTERLOCKING IN LANCASTER.
> 
> Plus, it allows me to model catenary for running GG-1's. Imagine a GG-1 
> heading south out of Harrisburg and then burning past MO without wire!!!
> 
> Here's the deal: Look at your interlocking diagram for CORK and flip it 
> 180 degrees. The Reading interchange would equate to my staging approach 
> track. The two passenger mains would align with my two passenger tracks 
> coming past HARRIS (in the next room). I can add some space between the 
> passenger tracks and the freight tracks coming from the next room, thus 
> simulating the twin freight tracks of the Columbia Branch reconnecting 
> with the mainline!

The Reading track at CORK is short, but you can solve that one with
"compression".  But look at the diagram again.  CORK has, from south
to north, freight switching, platform, platform track, 2 mains, platform
track, freight switching.  Your staging tracks could be extended as much
as you like.


> Then I need to infer where track was in front of CORK tower. Your diagram 
> is dated 1963. I am modeling 1954. I need four tracks through the 

Minimal change I suspect. Apart from the RDG crossings being out, CORK was
minimally changed even when it was my hangout 1980-1983!


> interlocking. It would appear, from the way the diagram was made, that at 
> one time there were four tracks through. I would add them back and do a 

Don't think so.

There is _space_ for 4 tracks because there are 2 platform tracks.  I.e.
nearly no (or no) psgr trains used the 2 middle tracks, as they all
stopped.  But the interlocking section between the west end of the
platforms and the divergence of the main from the more straight-line
Columbia Br. is a (nearly?) full interlocking.

This _would_ provide the catenary solution that my Rockville would not.
But with my solution you could force a swap of Gs for K4s!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Mark


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Jim Six" <jimsix@ncweb.com>
Subject: [PRR] Six' latest: PRR GS gon
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:34:39 -0500

Guys,

I have just completed a Bowser GP gondola kit.  All grabs were replaced with
formed wire versions and individual DA nut/bolt/washer castings installed.
Metal stirrups replace the molded on easy-break  plastic ones.  DA coupler
cut levers and freight car air hoses were installed as well.  Bowser trucks
have been retained but fit with Kadee wheel sets.  InterMountain Couplers.
Lettering is Bowser's factory paint.

If you would like to see this model, just let me know and I will make it
available to you.  It is a 505K 600 dpi scan, so it will take a little time
to download, but you can zoom in and scroll around for a real close-up
inspection.

If you do review this scan, please reply back and give me your critique.

Jim Six
PRR: Standard Railroad of the World



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Jim Six" <jimsix@ncweb.com>
Subject: [PRR] Bowser F30A flatcar
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:45:27 -0500

Y'all,

I am trying to learn more about Pennsy freight cars so that I can model them
reasonably accurately.  I opened up the box of a Bowser F30A flat car and
want to get started building, detailing and weathering it.  I looked ion my
copy of PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment and, like, . . .
there ain't no F30A flat cars in the book.  As close as I can come in that
book is an F30H bulkhead end flat.

Question, are the included Bowser trucks right for this car or should they
be Andrews trucks.  Also, what is the time frame for these flatcars 19##
through 19## ?  Any help you can offer will be appreciated.

Jim Six     :~)



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: [PRR] Looking for Bob Strong
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 14:30:34 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

There's a guy named Bob Strong who has, for the past few years, had a 
dealer table at the PRRT&HS Conventions. He scratchbuilds PRR towers to 
an enormous level of detail, then sells them once a year. They start at 
$100 and go to well over $300. Last year he had a great model of MO and 
one of ROCKVILLE.

Anyway, his phone number as of May was 609-723-5463. I just tried it and 
it "has been disconnected with no additional information."

Does anyone know where this guy has gone? I want to place an order for 
HARRIS tower!

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser F30A flatcar
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 15:59:26 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/31/98 3:45 PM, Jim Six (jimsix@ncweb.com) wrote:

>I am trying to learn more about Pennsy freight cars so that I can model them
>reasonably accurately.  I opened up the box of a Bowser F30A flat car and
>want to get started building, detailing and weathering it.  I looked ion my
>copy of PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment and, like, . . .
>there ain't no F30A flat cars in the book.  As close as I can come in that
>book is an F30H bulkhead end flat.
>
>Question, are the included Bowser trucks right for this car or should they
>be Andrews trucks.  Also, what is the time frame for these flatcars 19##
>through 19## ?  Any help you can offer will be appreciated.

I know that the F30A was the flat originally used in mid-1954 for the new 
"as yet un-named" TrucTrain service.

I'm interested in modeling some of these flats in trailer service, so 
anything you find out about modifications for that service would be 
appreciated.

I do know of the following for TT service:
* Each end of the car had a hinged plate on one side that would fold down 
to meet with the next car. These were at opposite corners on a car, so 
when multiple cars were coupled, these plates would be in line to drive a 
trailer from one car to the next. In this era, that's how they did it.
* My brochure announcing the service has one photo. It shows what looks 
to be an "I" beam laid on its edge running the length of the edge of the 
car...kind of like a curb. Comparing to other items in the photo, I'd say 
it's about 6" high. It also has oval shaped holes cut throughout its 
length.
* There are two vertical beams on each side, about 4' high, inserted into 
the stake holes. These appear to be "L" beams. I remember reading 
somewhere that these were "guards" to prevent a trailer from falling 
overboard...though I doubt they actually would in a serious jolt.
* From the session at last year's convention, it was stated that the 
original TT trailers were chained down. They sat on their trailer jacks. 
They had not yet placed a "fifth wheel" on top of the flats.

I believe the F30A's converted for TT service were redesignated F30D.

-----------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton     jerry@dsop.com
"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com
-----------------------------------------------


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:55:25 -0500 (EST)

> Re your comments about brotherhoods and labor-management relations see
> below:
> 
> 1863 - Locomotive Engineers Brotherhood established
> 1868 - Conductors Brotherhood established
> 1873 - Firemen and Engineers Brotherhood established
> 1877 - Great national railroad strike
> 1883 - Trainmen Brotherhood established
> 1884 - Bureau of Labor established under U.S. Dept. Commerce
> 1892 - Steel mill strike Homestead, PA (non-railroad event)
> 1894 - Pullman strike in Chicago  (non-railroad event)
>             Labor Day becomes a Federal Holiday
> 1913 - Bureau of Labor becomes Department of Labor
> 1919 - First great nationwide wave of strikes included first strike by
> government
>             employees (Boston PD)
> 1926 - Railway Labor Act (amended 1934 and 1951) was a model for the NLRA of
>            1935.
> 
> It appears to me the beginnings of the brotherhoods were in place

OK, I stand corrected re: the beginning of labor organization on the railroad.

Nevertheless, in general, and possibly on the RR as well, the right to strike
was not well established until this century; labor contracts were considered by
the courts to be made by and bind the owner of the company and the laborer, and
not by the company ("management") and an organization representing the
workers ("union").  The latter I believe is at least part of the reason why
worker organization and common action was seen almost as a conspiracy.


> and the
> blue collars in general were restless by the 1920s. No?

The blue collars were restless even in the 1870s.  This was well perceived as
a severe problem by one Theodore Roosevelt, but he had a hard time convincing
his fellow bluebloods that anything was amiss.  I've read a number of accounts
of why this may have been so.  One suggests that this is the first time, really,
that capitalism "really took off", to paraphrase, and that they were afraid to
do anything to mess it up.  I personally think this view is a bit generous.
On the other hand, I don't think it was a _conspiracy_ among the plutarchs, but
rather human nature. Our most recent plutarch, ol' Uncle Bill of Microsoft, e.g.,
is not seen as giving away much loot, after all.

Things simmered along for quite a while, occasionally exploding as you've
mentioned.  Thanks for mentioning the Boston PD - was it not after that event
that strikes were specifically recognized as legal?

The rise of the Progressive Party in this country, along with the directly
related rise of socialistic/communistic sympathies both here and abroad, is
another indicator of the labor unrest of the time.  Karl Marx did not rise
in a vacuum.


> I'd say given the
> events outlined any railroad labor relations executive worth his salt might
> show just some concern.

But Al, I don't think they did.  No offense, but I think this is some degree
of wishful thinking.  All of their friends, higher-ups in other companies,
"their kind" of people, ones they associated at the country club etc., were
telling them that it was natural and expected for there to be a "working
class" and a (superior in every way, in their view) "ruling class" or class
of capital or what have you, and many believed it.  People were put down
for being too nice to their workers.  Westinghouse was the best example: he
was lambasted by his colleagues for paying his workers too much.

And as you know, many executives today, particularly it seems on railroads,
show precious little concern.

Anyway, enough polemics for one day.


--
Mark

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Mail Storage Cars 
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:22:31 -0500
From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

On 28 Dec, Andrew S. Miller wrote:

> They probably would not be any of the "messenger" cars.  Those had facilities
> for an en route attendant (desk, safe, toilet) and were identified on the
> outside by a gold star.  The messenger cars probably had better ventilation
> too, although I'm not sure.

Every picture I've seen of a B60 w/gold star also shows
ventilators on the roof, those without are without.  :-)

I'm planning on scratchbuilding some of these in N, unless
somebody makes a plastic one before my 15-month-old gives me
back some free time!

Dennis Rockwell     SPF(N)    dennis@bbn.com      Cambridge MA

I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning!


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:25:46 -0500 (EST)

> >    staging _____     _________staging
> >          _______\___/____________ frt
> >         / ____________\__________ frt
> > (*)    / / ______________\_______ psgr
> >    \  / / / ________________\____ psgr
> >    | / / / /
> >     \| | | |
> >      | | | |
> >      |\| | |
> >      | |\| |
> >      | | | |
> >      | | |\|
> >      | | | |
> >      | | | |\
> >      | | | | \
> >      f f p p  (*)
> >
> >(*) added for appearance only.
> 
> This also cannot -- non negotiable -- be done. The area where you have 
> the ROCKVILLE Bridge crossovers is where the recessed entertainment 
> center resides in the family room. I have an allowance ("marital 
> easement") for one shelf the width of the room (14') and 14" wide.

I see.

Marital easements are tough to negotiate.

CORK it is, then?

--
Mark
:-(


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Subject: Re: [PRR] In Search of an Interlocking
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 16:01:22 -0500
From: Jerry <jerry@dsop.com>

On 12/31/98 3:25 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:

>Marital easements are tough to negotiate.

Reminds me of something John Armstrong did at a design seminar last year. 
I wasn't there, but I read about it. Apparently he presented a chart 
which plotted layout min. curve radii vs. divorce rate!
>
>CORK it is, then?
>
For now, anyway.

-----------------------------------------------
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"Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/
     Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PRRSignals@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:53:35 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Guess Who I Found?

*******ummm, Bob and I have been pals, co-conspirators and friends and PRR
buddies for decades, and he has been constantly in touch with our group.

You might wannna spell his name, correctly , though....R E I D...

Not to mention THAT WE ARE ALSO fellow shoppers from the "big and Tall"
catalogs !!! hahhaha,

Thanks, Al B for the corrections on the Labor discussion. Several of our group
just finished reading and discussing A. J. Cassatt's Bio book, and Mark's info
sure sounded   __ eroneous __  to all of us.

Happy new year, all !!!!..bill****

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:08:13 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Six' latest: PRR GS gon

In a message dated 12/31/98 2:44:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimsix@ncweb.com
writes:

> Guys,
>  
>  I have just completed a Bowser GP gondola kit.  All grabs were replaced
with
>  formed wire versions and individual DA nut/bolt/washer castings installed.
>  Metal stirrups replace the molded on easy-break  plastic ones.  DA coupler
>  cut levers and freight car air hoses were installed as well.  Bowser trucks
>  have been retained but fit with Kadee wheel sets.  InterMountain Couplers.
>  Lettering is Bowser's factory paint.
>  
>  If you would like to see this model, just let me know and I will make it
>  available to you.  It is a 505K 600 dpi scan, so it will take a little time
>  to download, but you can zoom in and scroll around for a real close-up
>  inspection.
>  
>  If you do review this scan, please reply back and give me your critique.
>  
>  Jim Six
>  PRR: Standard Railroad of the World
>  
Jim,
I'd love to see what you've done with this car.  I'll soon have to decide how
decrepit to make one of these in SK1b (1954) scheme look in 1968, which is
pushing credibility a little.  My cowardly but prototypical alternative of
course is to go MoW yaller in a circle keystone scheme...

Rick Tipton

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:40:00 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser F30A flatcar

In a message dated 12/31/98 3:08:04 PM Central Standard Time, jimsix@ncweb.com
writes:

<< Question, are the included Bowser trucks right for this car or should they
 be Andrews trucks.  Also, what is the time frame for these flatcars 19##
 through 19## ?  Any help you can offer will be appreciated.
  >>

I have the Sunshine kit for the F30A.  Sort of seems unfair to quote his data,
but he probably sourced the Keystone article which I am too lazy to look up.  
At any rate, 1500 cars were built in 1934 and all were still in service in the
1960's.
There were slight differences between the first 500 cars  (window in the end
to view  takeup reel for direct drive hand brakes)and the next 1000 (powered
hand brakes).
200 cars were converted to F30G for Trailer Train service in 1958.
The correct PRR 2E-F10 trucks are availble from Sunshine as part #TP40 for $5
with the kit, maybe another buck more separately. These are black plastic  and
not the white metal Sunshine sometimes has used.
Haven't seen either of the new Bowser cars in Cheeseheadland so can't comment
on the car or the trucks. 
I'll look up more details in the Keystone over the long holiday weekend.
I haven't done the F30a yet--finished two of Sunshine's PRR FM cars-nice cars
and as a Pennsy modeler I sleep better at night having scrapped my  Athearn
fillins.  I didn't use his deck--built up plank by plank and used
Weatherall--nice effect on a very visible detail. BTW, there are enough parts
left over in two kits to build a third--for my MOW.
train.
The underbody detail on the Sunshine kit is superb compared to Bowser kit I
saw at NMRA convention, but academic for me since I am an operations man and
fill the underbody with lead weights anyway for tracking purposes. 

Bob Zoeller

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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 20:43:29 -0500

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
To: Alan Buchan <abbuchan@familyconnect.net>
Cc: bejm@eeg.ccf.org <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
<PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's


>> I'd say given the
>> events outlined any railroad labor relations executive worth his salt
might
>> show just some concern.
>
>But Al, I don't think they did.  No offense, but I think this is some
degree
>of wishful thinking.

Mark,

I said CONCERN not COMPASSION.

There were 300,000 idle freight cars in Jan 1921 compared to a car shortage
a year earlier.
Ton-mileage of 1921 was 23% below 1920.
Passenger-miles of 1921 was 14% below 1920.
The dividend rate was cut 4%. PRR did not like to play with dividends.
The principal obstacles to effecting cutting operarting costs were the
"National Agreements" made by the USRA during the war.
Although technically the railroads were no longer bound by these agreements
the new Labor Board  wanted all railroads to keep the agreements in place
until hearings could be held.
At this time PRR VP Atterbury was Chairman of the Association of Railway
Executives which was pushing for the hearings so as to change the work
rules.
The Labor Board held hearings a decided that the "National Agreements" be
terminated on July 1 1921. This decision was not a victory for the railroads
as it set up principles governing negotiation to be held between roads and
their employees.

I believe there was a fine balance here in trying to keep the ecomomics of
the enterprise up while not allowing it to go down the tubes.

I agree with you that in general, management has not taken the workers
interests to heart. I have seen that first hand as I spent time in PRR's MW
department in the field, Operations Planning at System,  Employe and Labor
Relations Department at system (Note that PRR in the 1960s spelled Employe
with one "E", acceptable but not common)  and Operating Rules at System, the
NYCTA and later went on to be CEO of two railrway engineering companies..
>
>And as you know, many executives today, particularly it seems on railroads,
>show precious little concern.

I agree again and always have - and that's why in my humble opinion this
country is going to hell in a hand basket. However, I would not just target
the railroads. As far as I'm concerned the Health Care Industry, especially
Allegheny in Philadelphia has just about topped everyone. What those
executives did in my opinion borders on criminal. Frankly I hope they swing.

>Anyway, enough polemics for one day.


Your right - enough polemics = debate, discussion, contention, row,
argument, quarrel, altercation, feud or what ever level your at ----ACTUALLY
FOR THE YEAR.

Happy New Year Mark --  Al




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