Subject: [PRR] Liberty Model Productions - Financial Default Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 15:29:34 -0500 From: Jerry This is to serve notice to "PRR-Talk" subscribers who might have current interests in, or future interests in Liberty Model Productions. Liberty Model Productions and Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania had an agreement whereby Desktop Solutions traded their services (web site editing) for Liberty Model Productions products (K5, streamlined K4, etc.). It was also agreed on that if LMP did not bring products to market in a timely manner that DS could call in the debt in cash. As you all know, LMP has done very little towards bringing any of these products to market. In August, we offered to allow LMP to fulfill a portion of the obligation to us by sending us a Bowser T1 kit. The claimed to have ordered it, but it has never shown. I even brought it to Mr. Zappa's attention that he could have purchased one via mail order for under $150 and sent it to us to fulfill $200 worth of debt (list price). He still failed to do so. Mr. Zappa was given the deadline of Oct. 31 to meet his obligation, in full, or face legal consequence. He was again reminded last week. Here was his response: ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 10/26 5:03 PM Received: 10/27 6:17 AM From: Liberty, liberty@infonline.net To: jbritton@dsop.com Jerry, No problem. I will ensure that we get payment in full to you before the 31st. Thanks, Joe Z. ---------- > From: Jerry Britton > To: Joe Zappa > Cc: jbritton@dsop.com > Subject: End of Month Nears > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 4:02 PM > > Joe: > > Just a friendly reminder that the end of the month nears. To avoid any > hassles, legal and otherwise, please mail your full payment to arrive to > me by October 31, using overnight mail, if necessary. > > I am hopefull that your business will recover from your current situation > and will allow you to promote your products successfully at future > PRRT&HS conventions. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- No form of payment has arrived through and including Oct. 31. All papers concerning the matter have been forwarded to our attorney. Every piece of e-mail ever sent to us by LMP is included, including the entire financial arrangement. Because the total amount is just under $500, it qualifies for small claims court. Mr. Zappa will be summoned to appear in York County Court. If he does not show, he will lose the case (although I fully expect him to lose anyway). If he then does not pay, he will be found in contempt of court and a warrant issued for his arrest. (This information was provided by my attorney.) I have given Mr. Zappa more than enough leeway. However, he's going to learn that once I start a battle, I take no prisoners! Since he offers detail products to many types of hobbies, I will be forwarding an accounting of his business practices to all major modeling periodicals. I will also be notifying the Pennsylvania Fish and Game Commission, for whom he (supposedly) has a major contract with to produce a "fish stocking" car. Although I suspect that this contract has already met with problems. Okay, enough of my rant, now others (and I know you are out there) can share your exciting experiences with LMP. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty Model Productions - Financial Default Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 18:15:15 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 3:29 PM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >This is to serve notice to "PRR-Talk" subscribers who might have current >interests in, or future interests in Liberty Model Productions. Forgot to mention, I took the liberty of updating his former web site to reflect that he is "in default of his financial obligations". http://liberty.dsop.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:40:18 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] 1941 Equipment Registry Hello everyone, I would like to ask the list for a bit of help if I may. I just received this message from Stanley W. Johnson, the noted author on the Milwaukee road: >Do you have access a roster of Milwaukee Olympian sleeping cars (both their >home-made tourist sleepers and their Pullman-made Standard sleeping cars) by >name circa 1941? Or, perhaps, a copy of the 1941 Equipment Registry from which >the relevant pages might be copied? > >Also I desperately need the inside pages of a Milwaukee Road Diner evening >menu from the period of 1939 to 1941. Any of the three years will do but >1941 would be my preference. I have the breakfast and the luncheon menues, >but not the dinner one. Just the data, not the menu itself is what I need. >Stan Johnson > >swjohnson@silverlink.net ===== I doubt if we can help with the Milwaukee menu, but does anyone have a 1941 Equipment Registry that they would be willing to make xeroxi of? Thanks for your help. Please contact me or Stan Johnson if you have anything. Regards, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Renovo Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:52:40 -0800 Just got back from my trip to PA. I promised to get to the facts about the Renovo yards and the coaling tower there. Here they are. According to the Clinton County Economic Partnership (CCEP), they now own the entire yard. As of approximately 15 months ago they bought the east end of the yards from the man who owns the cabooses. The CCEP has signed a 10 year lease-purchase agreement with a company out of Georgia known there as Fitzgeralds Rail Company. The name will probably be different in Pa once operations begin. This company has been building cars for many railroads not strictly for Norfolk Southern who is a customer and not an affilliation. The coaling tower is in a 2-4 acre parcel slated to become a Heritage Park. This is part of the agreement. It is the intention of the CCEP to have this area preserved along with the tower. The CCEP is disappointed with the response of the local turnout at a meeting to set up this park and preserve the tower. I spoke with Wes Grand the Chief Operating Officer for the CCEP. He was concerned that I was from a historical group that might try to interfere with their plans for the yards; but, once I allieviated that fear, he was quite forthcomming with information. In the same breath he said, " if its jobs or historical preservation, jobs come first" then he told me the intentions with the tower and the Heritage Park. He went on to describe a plan to move the old hump weight house to the tower area in the Heritage Park. "It shouldn't cost much, around $30-35,000" he said. Sounds like a commitment to preservation to me! The X29 boxcar is now owned by the CCEP and is to eventually be preserved in the park also. The cabooses, approximately 20-30, that are still there are to be removed by the owner. He had 30 months from the signing to remove them. That gives him about 15 months. I heard he was taking them out by truck. Possibly last chance for anyone interested. I know some are Lehigh Valley, possibly a Reading, many seem to be New Haven. There are others I have doubts about posssibly Erie/Lackawanna vintage. There are three PRR N5s left. Also there is a heavyweight PRR in MOW yellow still on the grounds, as well as a NYC heavyweight. I believe an old pullman car. Don't quote me on that. That is enough for now. Greg Stone member PRRT&HS Interest in Renovo ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:35:38 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Liberty Models Hello guys.... I'm sorry to hear what is going on with Joe Zappa..... I had hoped that this would'nt go the way of "Nova Tech" in its turn out..... Joe still can do something about all of this ...but its mainly up to him.... Joe has some models of mine that i would like to get back.... Some samples i sent him. I had made the K-5 prototype and finished it and the N-8 as well....Like i've said before...I still hope something gets worked out either way. I can only hope i get them back. The K-5 and N-8 are his property and he can do with them as he wishes. Joe if you get to read this...there are many who are upset with you. Please...if you can't produce these models....give Miracle a shot... It might help you out.... I can only hope all the best for all concerned...I really hate to see things like this happen....but Joe has said many things and made many promises...I feel his biggest short coming was not keeping us all up to date on what is happening and why...this is not to say that he has to tell us what is going on with him in his personal life... But it does look bad when you keep quiet about things and keep folks hanging.... Well all thats my two cents on this....I don't want to discredit Joe on any honest effort he still might be tring to make. But as i said the ball is in his court. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty Models Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 20:38:59 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 7:35 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > Joe still can do something about all of this ...but its mainly > up to him.... > Joe has some models of mine that i would like to get back.... > Some samples i sent him. I had made the K-5 prototype and finished it > and the N-8 as well....Like i've said before...I still hope something > gets worked out either way. I can only hope i get them back. > The K-5 and N-8 are his property and he can do with them as he wishes. Hank, if you made the prototypes, would they not be your "intellectual property"? Or did Joe pay you for the work? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 20:44:16 -0500 From: Jerry It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server. Actually, this I knew. It was brought to my attention over two months ago while it was under development. I asked Joe about it, and he said he would be switching to his new site after a while, he had an "inside person" that wanted to maintain it. We agreed on October 31 as his cutoff date. This was close enough to our contracted "60 day notice" so I was happy, and his web hosting fees are paid up. So, in this one respect, Joe Zappa HAS met his financial obligations. I chose to leave his old site up after Oct. 31, free of charge, because the world is bookmarked to it as are all of the search engines and I can now use it as a conduit to spread the good word about Mr. Zappa's venture. ;-) http://liberty.dsop.com Kevin Tulley's web site, I think you will find, is excrutiatingly slow...even by my standards! I believe Kevin got involved with Joe by supplying masters for the American Steel series (one car!) that Liberty is hawking. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:22:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial drive system? What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to get it come up. Todd Horton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:00:10 PST To all on the PRR-Talk list, I have recieved several posts on Joe Zappa's site and business via this mailing list. Being good friends with Joe, and as most of you are on at least speaking terms with Joe, I would like to make a few comments, and will include exerpts from this letter: >It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server.< Yes, this is true. Joe and I have been working on the site for about two months now. And since we are "laying it all out", the request came not just from Joe, but from SEVERAL emails sent to Joe reguarding the consistancy of NOT BEING ABLE TO ACCESS LMP'S WEB SITE. As Joe new that my site was tied into Aims Inc., a LARGE internet provider and company specializing in Web Design and systems (which also has a DIRECT FEED to a fiber optic system), and the FACT that people can ALWAYS access my site with a SHORT DURATION download time, he felt this was the best way to go. >It was brought to my attention over two months ago while it was under development. I asked Joe about it, and he said he would be switching to his new site after a while, he had an "inside person" that wanted to maintain it. We agreed on October 31 as his cutoff date. This was close enough to our contracted "60 day notice" so I was happy, and his web hosting fees are paid up. So, in this one respect, Joe Zappa HAS met his financial obligations.< This is also true. I am the "inside person", as I now work directly for LMP as their Model Railroad Project and Selection Manager. Why not have someone that works for the company also maintain the web site? Why subcontract if you don't have to? >I chose to leave his old site up after Oct. 31, free of charge, because the world is bookmarked to it as are all of the search engines and I can now use it as a conduit to spread the good word about Mr. Zappa's venture. ;-) http://liberty.dsop.com< >Kevin Tulley's web site, I think you will find, is excrutiatingly slow...even by my standards! I believe Kevin got involved with Joe by supplying masters for the American Steel series (one car!) that Liberty is hawking.< I find the statement above to be in poor taste. As far as my site being slow, I've had several people around the country time how long it takes to download the main page. One of which was in Rockhill Furnace, PA and one in Anchorage, AK. Both said less than 45 seconds. I have timed Mr. Bretons site at 1.50 minutes. Given that the PRR site has many advertisements and graphics, I don't think this is "excrutiatingly slow", but it could be a little quicker. As for the American Steel series, true, only one car has been released and is in production, but two more are in the molds now. We (LMP and myself) aren't Athearn or Accurail, but if you talk to anyone who knows anything about those companies, they'll tell you that any item to be released doesn't just happen over night. We went from idea to production on the Ingot Mold Car in three months. Not bad for a "cottage industry". As for the comment about the N8, it's in line for molding, and should be on the shelves in the spring. As many of you may know, Joe is going through a divorce. I'm sure there are more than just a few of you on this group who have been through one, myself included. I'd like you all to think about what goes on during a divorce, and give Joe a break. He could use our support about now, rather than our grief. I know Joe very well, and if he told Jerry that the check was in the mail, it damn well was. With a popular page like the Keystone Crossings, I would think Jerry would have a little more couth than to "jump the gun" and start talking about winning a case and Joe getting arrested. "Barracks lawyers" comments are not needed or do they belong on this mailing list. One last thing, and this is for Jerry, IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH ME, CALL ME AND WE'LL MEET SOMEWHERE AND SOLVE THEM LIKE MEN. EATHER THROUGH CONVERSATION LIKE MATURE ADULTS, OR BY WHATEVER MEANS YOU DEEM NECESSARY. 'Nuff said. Lets all remember that this is a hobby or past time for us, and we're supposed to be having fun and fellowship, not knifing eachother in the back. Kevin Tully Model Railroader. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:18:25 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 10:22 PM, CENTGA@aol.com (CENTGA@aol.com) wrote: >Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc >are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial >drive system? >What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also >has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to >get it >come up. Todd Horton 1. Yes, I've laid eyes on one and still have it. A review of the work was done on the list a month ago. Check the archives. 2. They don't use any drive, trucks, etc., because it is a "shell" product. Although they recommend an Athearn PA mechanism, several folks plan to use P2K mechanisms. 3. My web site had trouble between 10/28-31. I installed a new rev (beta) of the server software and it caused lockups. On the 31st I installed a new beta rev. Problem persisted. Late on the 31st I downgraded to the previous final release. Should be working fine now. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:48:10 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc > are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial > drive system? > What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also > has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to get it > come up. Todd Horton Hit the archives; Both Jerry and i already reviewed it -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: TAN Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:27:31 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 11:00 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: > I'd like you all to think about what goes >on during a divorce, and give Joe a break. He could use our support >about now, rather than our grief. I know Joe very well, and if he told >Jerry that the check was in the mail, it damn well was. I've given Joe a break since August. He owes me close to $500. I gave him options. He said he would take them (meet part of balance via T1 which he buys at wholesale). I gave him time, time, and more time. He was warned of legal action a month ago. So don't tell me I shouldn't "jump the gun", as I actually restrained others from attacking his character and business earlier in the month. I told them Joe had a 10/31 deadline with me and asked them to await that outcome. That date came and went, and this thread is the result. Let's just say, he won't work in this town (PRR) any more! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:23:55 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 11:00 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: > One last thing, and this is for Jerry, IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH >ME, CALL ME AND WE'LL MEET SOMEWHERE AND SOLVE THEM LIKE MEN. EATHER >THROUGH CONVERSATION LIKE MATURE ADULTS, OR BY WHATEVER MEANS YOU DEEM >NECESSARY. 'Nuff said. I don't have any beef with you. After all, I provided you with the PRR2000 list at no cost. I wouldn't have done that otherwise. My server is slower than desired due to my 56K connection. Your server, and others have timed it, takes over 2 minutes to load LMP page, your RR page, or the PRR2000 project page. This is true when using Navigator 4.x, IE 3x or 4x. The site I am sitting at when I try this has a 384K connection. Only thing I can think of is that I sit behind a firewall and your system doesn't like that. I do not have this problem elsewhere. In fact, my entire page with graphics fully loads faster than yours do, and yours are light on graphics! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:36:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken elsewhere? If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles do not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:21:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: getting singed by the flames.... In a message dated 98-11-02 09:02:57 EST, you write: << ubj: Re: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: 98-11-02 09:02:57 EST From: shadow@dementia.org (Derrick J Brashear) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken elsewhere? If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles do not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... -D >> *****Thanks Derrick - I strongly second this...!!!! Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:51:29 PST Received: from [198.81.17.1] by hotmail.com (1.0) with SMTP id MHotMail30874698002723506532495332720153714205; Mon Nov 02 06:30:07 1998 Received: from PRRSignals@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RKVCa10440 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:28:41 -0500 (EST) From: PRRSignals@aol.com Message-ID: <8eb997e2.363dc199@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:28:41 EST To: t1duplex@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 *********whew....Hi, Kevin - Listen, I am an old blacksmith O scaler, now in G, so the turmoil I am forced to read about is of little interest to me, product-wise.....glad for anything that makes folks happy, whatever scale.... BUTT, I was very glad you, ummm, corrected that situation, and gave jerry a well-deserved shot. Again, don't mean no never-moind to me, butt....wrong is wrong. While I am not divorced ( yet..?? hahhaha)...I have walked several pals thru it, and I would not want to be held responsible for any petty BS I did while going thru Hell. Thanks for your moderate and fair stance......to me, lawyers are my LAST RESORT. Geesh, no patience, jump right to legal rather than human methods of working things out..... Anyway, thanks, he needed that smacking..!!!! HAHHAHAH. pLEASE HELP jz ALL YOU CAN, AS i KNOW YOU WILL (OOoops, caps lock, me pissed)... anyway, good of you....I appreciate......just to let you know you are on target with me, just another guy......Bill*** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:04:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Need phone number Does any one have Kevin Tully's phone number? Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Managing Editor, De Imperatoribus Romanis Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:21:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Civility I have always enjoyed prr-talk because of the civility that always accompnied our disputes, and being opinionated SPF's these are inevitable. Lately the problems around Liberty have generated an unprecedented degree of acrimony. Enough, we don't need this. In addition, as an attorney, with nearly 30 years at the bar, I advise all to remember 2 things 1. Making statements that relate to another persons character and disparage him in his trade or business may be actionable, even if true, when then show him in a false light. 2. This is even more dangerous where the statement-maker is in business himself and the statement might be trade disparagement. Lets keep this to PRR items. Jerry Finefrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:08:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago Guys, Paul Kossart asks the below question about Panhandle trackage in Chicago. Can anyone who knew Chicago well verify the Campbell's plant and other details of trackage between Ash Street Junction and Brighton Park Junction? Thanks, Rick Tipton PCC&StL/PRR Lines West Louisville, KY In a message dated 11/2/98 1:21:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, kozys@theramp.net writes: > Hi Rick, > > I > was wondering if you had any info. or sources of same on the Pensy > Panhandle Route in Chicago, specifically going past and serving Campbell > Soup's plant on 35th Street on the South side. The reason I ask is that I > grew up railfanning switching and mainline traffic behind the plant in the > middle sixties. Somebody told me once or I read that the tracks there were > the Pensy Panhandle Line but I never had any definite info on if it was or > not. I recall seeing Pensy, B&O & C&O but there were MANY tracks up there. > I was around ten to twelve years old at the time. If you could help at > all would be much appreciated if for no other reason than nostalgic. If it > helps at all, the location was between Ash Street Junction and Brighton > Park(?) Junction. > > THX . . . > Paul Kossart > kozys@theramp.net > NMRA, LDSIG, OPSIG, SigSIG, BRHS, TP&W-HS > LaSalle & Bureau County Model R.R. Club > Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Model R.R. (HO) > Illiniwek River Branch - 1969 > THINK GLOBALLY, ACT LOCALLY, DRESS CASUALLY! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:18:17 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:36:39 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear writes: >So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken >elsewhere? >If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles >do >not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... > >-D I must agree. Sincerely, David W. "SGT" York ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:51:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Diesel Locomotives On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Patrick M Egan wrote: > Among other things are C-Liners and Lima Transfer Locomotives. These are > indicated as having "Trainstuff Mfg." shells and Hobbytown drive > components. > > There are a lot of questions that come to mind, but the first ones are, > who is Trainstuff, and what's the quality? > > Any body have any knowledge of this "stuff"? Word from someone whose opinion I trust is the Lima Centercab is crude; Only the rounded cab windows give it the Lima "look". That said, I have no yet seen one myself. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 15:32:28 -0500 From: Jerry Okay, here's one more "good thing" I am doing for Joe...here's his NEW web address for those who have been asking: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Also, I commented earlier about the slowness of the site, while admitting the slowness of my own site...the slowness seems related to the new site not dealing politely with firewalls and proxy servers. In "sniffing" packets, it seems to be trying to determine the IP of the client and/or place cookies, which the firewall is blocking. In accessing the same page from a non-protected system, the page loads in about 45 seconds. However, many graphics are missing. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:45:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine has. He states that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks which the cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel spacing to determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:45:09 PST To everyone, To the best of my knowledge, neither my site or Aims Inc. approves of "cookies" and "spam". And, to the best of my knowledge, these types of programs are not in place concerning my site. Kevin Tully Received: from [199.224.69.130] by hotmail.com (1.0) with SMTP id MHotMail30874941023823506532501335336384286331; Mon Nov 02 13:15:53 1998 Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com (AppleShare IP Mail Server 5.0.2) id 449493 via TCP with SMTP; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:45:07 +0000 Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com with POP3; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:36:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 15:32:28 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Jerry To: "PRR-Talk" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Okay, here's one more "good thing" I am doing for Joe...here's his NEW web address for those who have been asking: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Also, I commented earlier about the slowness of the site, while admitting the slowness of my own site...the slowness seems related to the new site not dealing politely with firewalls and proxy servers. In "sniffing" packets, it seems to be trying to determine the IP of the client and/or place cookies, which the firewall is blocking. In accessing the same page from a non-protected system, the page loads in about 45 seconds. However, many graphics are missing. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:33:59 PST The New site address is: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Please remember that the site is under construction, and that I am open to suggestions on making the site better. I'd also like to hear some download times, if any of you don't mind taking the time to do that. Kevin Tully Hi all, Dumb question... What's Liberty's new web address? With all the mud slung around here no one thought to mention what it was! I went to the old page, expecting maybe a link but all that's there is a broken image link and more mud.... Gotta love the professional way this whole thing is being handled! Rob To all on the PRR-Talk list, I have recieved several posts on Joe Zappa's site and business via this mailing list. Being good friends with Joe, and as most of you are on at least speaking terms with Joe, I would like to make a few comments, and will include exerpts from this letter: >It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server.< Yes, this is true. Joe and I have been working on the site for about two months now. And since we are "laying it all out", the request came not just from Joe, but from SEVERAL emails sent to Joe reguarding the consistancy of NOT BEING ABLE TO ACCESS LMP'S WEB SITE. As Joe new that my site was tied into Aims Inc., a LARGE internet provider and company specializing in Web Design and systems (which also has a DIRECT FEED to a fiber optic system), and the FACT that people can ALWAYS access my site with a SHORT DURATION download time, he felt this was the best way to go. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:01:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in Chicago. The north south lines in and out of Chicago where not part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. INfact the Panhandle actually refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia only, i.e., the Panhandle Division. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:22:38 -0500 (EST) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh > traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. True. (Via the Vandalia Lines ...) > The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and > terminated in Chicago. True. > The north south lines in and out of Chicago where not > part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. Sorry, an overgeneralization. The lines from Columbus, Richmond, and Indianapolis, converging at Logansport, and proceeding via North Judson to Chicago were called "Panhandle" and were part of the PCC&StL, which was nicknamed "the Panhandle". > All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. True. > INfact the Panhandle actually > refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia Yes. > only, i.e., the Panhandle Division. No, too restrictive a definition. See above. In case there is any doubt, the _Centennial History_, p. 825 [Index], lists as an entry: PANHANDLE LINE, trade name of Pitts., Cin. & St. Louis Ry. Co. _and successors_ (italics mine). Under the latter name, a line item lists ...; consolidated to form P.C.C.&St.L. Ry. Co. (1890), 380, 509; -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:44:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 In a message dated 11/2/98 6:11:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes in part: << I have not checked the wheel spacing to determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. >> Hi Guys, According to the "Model Railroader, Cyclopedia-Vol. 2, Diesel Locomotives" the wheel spacing (on the trucks) is the same for the PA and the BP-20 at 7' 9". They do however, have different diameter wheels. 40 inches on the PA, and 42 inches on the BP-20. (While I'm here and lookin) the wheelbase (measured from center wheel to center wheel) is 34' 2" on the PA, and 46' 3 1/2" on the BP-20. George ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 20:15:26 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/2/98 5:45 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine has. He states >that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks which the >cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel spacing to >determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. A few weeks back on the list, maybe six, someone researched and found that the trucks themselves were identical, from the same OEM. So, PA trucks on a BP20 works. Miracle provides a chassis, so all you are mounting is the power trucks, not the entire PA chassis. That takes care of the truck spacing. When discussing BP20's, please be very sure to specify Miracle Castings (if that is what you are referring to) as there are also the apparently much lower quality Sharks from Hobbytown (or whatever it was) in Boston. I don't want to see MC get a bad rep for another's work! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:08:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/2/98 6:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, SUVCW ORR writes: > How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh > traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. > > The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois > and terminated in Chicago. The north south lines in and out of Chicago where > not part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. > > All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. INfact the Panhandle actually > refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia only, i.e., the > Panhandle Division. > Rich, No one should argue with your observation that all Lines West are not part of the Panhandle. Certainly the Fort Wayne and the Cleveland & Pittsburgh are Lines West, but not "Lines Southwest". And I am usually the first to point out that the Panhandle's principal trains ran the route between Pittsburgh and St. Louis, as this is the routing I model. But the rest -- OUCH! I'm sorry but I don't agree -- my research says the Panhandle went to Chicago. You may not have seen a large number of previous postings on PRR-Talk and MEMRA about this subject, concerning the Panhandle in Chicago and Logansport, Chicago interlockings and surviving physical plant, and other goodies. To summarize: PRR's CHICAGO APPROACHES The Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago, nicknamed "The Fort Wayne", was Pennsy's most famous way into Chicago. Route of the Broadway and a host of other name trains and first class mail schedules, the Fort Wayne went into Chicago via Crestline OH, Lima, Van Wert, Fort Wayne IN, Plymouth, and Gary. It ran near the lakeshore, passed through Englewood Union Station, and headed straight north for the south end of Chicago Union Station. Less celebrated and certainly ignored by the railfan press, there was a spider's web of lines in Ohio/Indiana that were operated as part of Lines Southwest, and thus shared the nickname "the Panhandle". These lines brought PRR freight and passenger traffic to Chicago from Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville, and at one time even from St. Louis. All these routes came together at a major complex of yards and shops and interlocking plants in Logansport Indiana, where the Pennsy and the Wabash crossed the Wabash River and each other. The "second" PRR mainline into Chicago left VAN tower in Logansport IN, passing through North Judson IN, crossing diamonds at Dolton IL and at least a dozen other suburban places in the Chicago area, to pass west of downtown and ultimately approach Chicago Union Station from the north, paralleling the Milwaukee Road's approach. LOGANSPORT AS PANHANDLE TRAFFIC HUB All the 7 lines out of Logansport were PCC&StL, and are so marked on various maps. As posted before, they went (naming clockwise from the north) to 1. South Bend via Plymouth IN (South Bend Branch) 2. Butler IN (Wabash connection) via Columbia City (Eel River Line) 3. Columbus OH via Bradford OH (Columbus & Indiana Central) 4. Cincinnati OH via Richmond IN (Richmond Branch) 5. Louisville KY via Frankfort and Indianapolis (I&F Branch) 6. TP&W at Effner IN (Effner Branch) 7. Chicago via North Judson, Dolton, 59th Street, Western Ave Logansport itself was once a hot spot of Pennsy activity, with 4 separate freight yards, a car shop, and (at least in the 1880s) manufacture of new locomotives for the PCC&StL. Significantly, it had a freight house much larger than usual for the size of the town. I've found very little written about Logansport, but we did some postings a while back on our onsite archaeology and some maps found; this really begs an article by someone who knows the area's history intimately. But from size of facilities, Logansport really handled some freight traffic. PANHANDLE FREIGHT AND PASSENGER SERVICE TO/FROM CHICAGO In later years, PRR passenger trains to Louisville, Cincinnati, and Columbus left CUS to the south (on the Fort Wayne main), and gained rails to Logansport via a cutoff somewhere down near Colehour Yard. This would have included the South Wind, the Kentuckian, and the Union But presumably freights on the Panhandle came out of 59th Street Yard, which previous postings have established was north and west of Englewood by some distance. WHAT'S IN A (NICK)NAME? It would be easy to become careless and apply a nickname where it doesn't belong; it is certainly worth stopping to ask if that might have happened here. It's certainly true that the original Panhandle Railroad was just a piece of the PRR-controlled line getting to the Ohio River across West Virginia. It's true that the Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis-St.Louis line (organized as the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and St. Louis around the time of the Civil War) was nicknamed the "Panhandle Route". And its' true that the first division on the Panhandle west of Pittsburgh was officially named the "Panhandle Division", possibly at least as far back as World War One. But when the PC&StL absorbed more companies in OH, IL, and IN, it became the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, CHICAGO, and St. Louis, and continued to be referred to as the Panhandle. Was this true in Chicago? Yes -- I've heard and read too many resources refer to "the Panhandle" line in Chicago to believe anything else. It seems clear that people all over the former PCC&StL continued to use the nickname Panhandle ever since, and into very recent times. Therefore, when we talk about Lines West and Chicagoland, we must talk about both the "Fort Wayne" and the "Panhandle" lines into and inside the Chicago metro area. Hope this is a satisfactory explanation of our usage of "the Panhandle". As always, I welcome input on things Pennsy, especially Lines West. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:47:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/2/98 10:38:13 PM Central Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << But when the PC&StL absorbed more companies in OH, IL, and IN, it became the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, CHICAGO, and St. Louis, and continued to be referred to as the Panhandle. Was this true in Chicago? Yes -- I've heard and read too many resources refer to "the Panhandle" line in Chicago to believe anything else. It seems clear that people all over the former PCC&StL continued to use the nickname Panhandle ever since, and into very recent times. >> The September 1982 Keystone article on the Chicago Terminal Division referred throughout to the "Panhandle" mainline and FWIW I have frequently seen it referred to it that way in other references. The passenger trains Rick referred to left the Fort Wayne Line at Colehour Junction just West of Colehour Yard and connected to the "Panhandle" line at Bernice, Illinois, via the former South Chicago and Southern Railroad Company (SC&S), passing through Hegewisch and Calumet Park, Illinois. I believe the Pennsy's SC&S line still exists in part on Conrail, but would have to check my Conrail maps for that (wherever they might be). I wonder if that is the trackage the "bottle" train (hot metal cars) uses in part. One variance from the passenger routing, at least until a few years after WWII, was The Southland which went to Ft. Wayne before heading South through Richmond, Indiana. Thanks to Rick for a good overall description of the "other" lines around Chicago. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:40:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Jerry, Kevin and all, Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you want me to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. And Jerry I hope you do not mean anything by the statement below. Greg Martin In a message dated 11/2/98 5:13:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Let's just say, he won't work in this town (PRR) any more! >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:40:14 -0500 Hello to all, Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 8:15 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 > > > On 11/2/98 5:45 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: > > >While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine > has. He states > >that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks > which the > >cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel > spacing to > >determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. > > A few weeks back on the list, maybe six, someone researched and found > that the trucks themselves were identical, from the same OEM. So, PA > trucks on a BP20 works. > > Miracle provides a chassis, so all you are mounting is the power trucks, > not the entire PA chassis. That takes care of the truck spacing. > > When discussing BP20's, please be very sure to specify Miracle Castings > (if that is what you are referring to) as there are also the apparently > much lower quality Sharks from Hobbytown (or whatever it was) in Boston. > I don't want to see MC get a bad rep for another's work! > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:20:55 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] cloth patches Hello all, Need to ask a small favor: does someone out there have a Pennsy keystone cloth logo patch they could spare? I promised a certain 5 year old boy a choo-choo hat for Xmas, and cloth patches can't be had for love nor money here in St. Loser. (This kid lives in Pittsburg, watches Conrail go by out his bedroom window and is well and truly gaa-gaa about trains, which ought to make the Lines Westerners day) Please let me know what it will cost and I will get out to you directly. Thank you! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:00:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Re:Chicago panhandle It is difficult to explain to those not familiar with Chicago. An easily obtained publication "Carstens Great Lakes West" and "Carstens Great Lakes East" clearly shows how the passenger and freight operations were interchangend between the two lines on the south side of Chicago. Freight trains from 59th St. ran east to the "Ft Wayne" line along 59th St. It is indicated as abandanded but is still mostly intact with track. The 59th St. yard has been recently rebuilt and reopened. The line from Colehour to the panhandle was ripped up except for a short segment through the Hegewisch area which is used by "bottle trains" on the IHB. The Amtrak trains using that section have been rerouted over the UP to a new interchange installed a few years ago Bob Leffingwell, Hegewisch, Il ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 03:13:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville Hey yuze gize, I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some great stuff coming from us at all sides. We are truly in the "glory days" of this hobby. I also attended the Prototype Modelers meet in Naperville and I will fill you all in on that. I saw some beautiful models on display, I will tell you who is out there doing what. I also picked up some photo's from Richard Burg and I saw some new parts and "toys" from guys who did not attend MRIA/RCHTA Show. I am also a member of the RPM (Railroad Prototype Modelers) steering committee and I will fill you in on what we are doing to encourage more accurate and realistic modeling. And guess what, I never saw one guy pick up a model or have/use a scale ruler or even count a set of rivets. Something to think of. Jim Six was planning on making it but with his work schedule and the SEMRA Convention coming up in a few weeks he was excused. Jim, Mike Bradley says hi, those guys all got in late Thursday I think. I stayed up doing slides until 2 in the morning every night but Saturday. Next year I think they will need more display tables for the models. Also I met some of the local Modelers from around the Chicago area through a great friend of mine, Mike Smeltzer, most of them deeply involved in the CB&Q (or as they refer to it -Q-shit) very, very good modelers. I will post them in 3 separate post so you can "reply to all" and keep them on topic. Greg Martin coming home with a big smile on my face! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:12:28 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/3/98 12:40 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and >say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to >hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be >problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well >Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have >committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you >want me >to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I >realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think >that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. I think this thread will die off momentarily. The only reason I started it on the list is because there were several (short of a dozen) who were already voicing complaints about LMP. I did want to get a warning out about their situation, not unlike what went on about Nova Tech some time back. At that time, many individuals voiced their thanks for the posts as they otherwise would have placed orders. The post to the list also seems to have accomplished something that otherwise was unattainable: It got LMP refocused (at least momentarily) on customer service and accounts payable. I have been notified that my funds are on their way via registered mail. Mike has been provided a UPS tracking number for his T1. Etc. I believe these two statements from Joe Zappa because if it were not true, why would he dig his hole deeper? I anticipate making only one more post to the list regarding this matter, unless something comes up. That post would be to say that I have received payment. I believe Mike will do likewise when he receives his T1. That would only be fair. Joe was/is a nice guy. He's just a victim of circumstance, which is unfortunate. I sympathize with his plight, thus provided him with lots of time and many opportunities to make it right. However, I (and others) should not be victimized in the process. Though he may have some bitterness about all of this, if he removes himself and looks at the situation from afar, I am sure that he will agree that this was not handled in the customer's best interest. Enough said. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:20:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/03/98 The "bottle trains" still operate daily through Hegewisch. Bob Leffingwell, Hegewisch ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:04:16 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:36:17 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey yuze gize, > I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in > the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers > meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to I wasn't there (wish I could have been)... > do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in > the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some but I did hear about some of the toys (these are the ones Pennsy fans might want): Atlas will next be doing the RS-1 in the Classic line (HO and N). Stewart C-628 is running behind but undec should ship by the end of the year. (which means if PRR comes out in February it will be a year late:-). Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) Intermountain's F unit shell is well underway, and is very nice, but the nose is not yet polished out nicely. The fan detail on the new Life-Like P2K GP7 is supposed to be much better than on previous units; less of a "delrin" appearance But I wasn't even there, so I should shut up and let Greg tell it.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:30:19 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > > > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is > >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. > > I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the > moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com iirc http://mc.cyklone.com -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Henrik Thomsen" Subject: [PRR] Monogahela division Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:05:56 +0100 Hi, just to say thank for the mails I'd recieved. I will off course still be interested, if someone should know a thing or two about the Monongahela division. Regards, Henrik Thomsen ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: Re: [PRR] Civility Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 05:09:06 PST I am forwarding this to the group at the request of Joe Zappa. Let's hope this puts and end to all of this. Kevin Tully, Liberty Model Productions PRR- Talk list members, Whatever side of the fence you're on, I'm sorry that you had to be forced to be in on it all. I sincerely hope that this will be the last post regarding any of this. Since I have not been on the list for several weeks, I did not know all of the petty BS being spread about, and obviously could not reply. I will tell you that Jerry has been paid ( payment sent via registered mail ), but probably has not received it yet. I have been totally swamped, and am keeping on, but Liberty Model Productions has indeed put most all projects on the back burner for the moment. I cannot say at this time what the future holds for certain, but I will not go down easy ! It is likely that you will see several new models, but not until next year sometime. Depending on the outcome of things, you may see nothing at all. For Jerry, We do not 'Hawk' kits, we make them. You make nothing, but you do "Hawk" other peoples products. Additionally, any of my dealings in any other markets, is nobody's business but mine and the folks involved. Keep your nose out. I thank those of you who have offered words of encouragement, as they do help ! Now for the sake of everyone, if there is anything further to be 'discussed' please 'e' me DIRECTLY. Thanks you all, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 09:44:06 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] cloth patches Howdy Mr Boyd: I need to go to the Strasburg area on Wednesday for some work stuff. Just a short trip to hit the Train Store at Strasburg - they have just about any railroad patch ever made. Or you could call Schrader's at 1800.842.4828 and see if they have patches, I know they have hats and shirts - don't know if they still carry patches. Anyway if I can be of any service let me know. cos Robert A. Boyd wrote: > Hello all, > > Need to ask a small favor: does someone out there have a Pennsy keystone > cloth logo patch they could spare? I promised a certain 5 year old boy a > choo-choo hat for Xmas, and cloth patches can't be had for love nor money > here in St. Loser. (This kid lives in Pittsburg, watches Conrail go by > out his bedroom window and is well and truly gaa-gaa about trains, which > ought to make the Lines Westerners day) > > Please let me know what it will cost and I will get out to you directly. > > Thank you! > > Bob > > Robert A. Boyd > > ======== > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > > "The Limited" On Line > http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > ======== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20's, Liberty Models, etc. Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:26:07 -0500 Hi Everybody! I've noticed some confusion about the drive train on our BP-20 model, so here's the dirt on it. The model we sell comes with a RESIN chassis / fuel tank combination, that is designed to fit Athearn PA power trucks and Athearn motor. Our chassis has the accurate wheelbase for the Shark model (unlike the PA, which is much shorter). We don't supply the Athearn trucks or motor, as it makes little sense for a Canadian company to import U.S. goods, only to re-export them right back to the U.S., especially when our dollar is worth about as much as Monopoly money. We provide a couple of parts to extend the front drive shaft far enough to reach the front truck (the PA driveshaft is too short for the distance to the front truck). The kit is unassembled and unpainted, but needs very little finishing work compared to most craftsman kits. We've tried to obtain the highest possible surface detail and quality, and I think Jerry will agree that the shell is one of the better resin kits out there in that regard. We also have a B-unit available. If anyone has any questions, they can either ask Jerry, check out our web site, ( http://mc.cyklone.com ) or call us at (519)757-0625, or e-mail us at miracle-castings@on.aibn.com As for the Liberty Models situation, I realize that promises have not been kept, and tensions are high at the moment. Hopefully a solution can be found to this unpleasantness, for everybody's sake. HOWEVER, I do have one request of the people involved. On several occasions, Miracle Castings has been mentioned as a possible producer of kits that have been submitted to Liberty Models as masters, but which have not yet been produced. I understand the concern of the people who produced these masters, that their hard work not be wasted, and that people have access to these models. But I would like to respectfully ask that we be left out of the debate on this topic. Once the dust has settled, if someone wants us to produce a model for them, obviously we would be more than happy to talk to them about it, but we don't wish to be embroiled in the middle of a dispute over ownership or breach of contract. We have nothing to do with this situation, and would be happy to keep it that way. As for the Hobbytown / Trainstuff Mfg., I'm very familiar with Hal Kirschner of Hobbytown (he's a nice guy, and a good business man), but I've never heard of Trainstuff Mfg., and have never seen the quality of their products. We don't intend to change anything about the way we are conducting our business in reaction to this news (not at this point, at least). We would, however, suggest that people try to get a look at actual product before making a decision about which unit to buy, or at least talk to a trusted person who HAS seen the products. We're in this for the long haul, and personally I've seen too many resin producers come and go to get too worked up about any particular one. If their product is dynamite, well then I guess we'll have to react in some way! The way I feel about it, there's lots of products that need to be done, and competition is good for the hobby! Regards, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:08:55 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) the Cleveland area has a few auto plants that the Pennsy served. Living in Wisconsin I had that rumor flying around last year and now with AccuRail making the Auto Racks and Walthers making the Auto Plant . It is looking good for my future model railroad layout. Derrick J Brashear on 11/03/98 07:36:17 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey yuze gize, > I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in > the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers > meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to I wasn't there (wish I could have been)... > do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in > the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some but I did hear about some of the toys (these are the ones Pennsy fans might want): Atlas will next be doing the RS-1 in the Classic line (HO and N). Stewart C-628 is running behind but undec should ship by the end of the year. (which means if PRR comes out in February it will be a year late:-). Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) Intermountain's F unit shell is well underway, and is very nice, but the nose is not yet polished out nicely. The fan detail on the new Life-Like P2K GP7 is supposed to be much better than on previous units; less of a "delrin" appearance But I wasn't even there, so I should shut up and let Greg tell it.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:19:16 -0500 From: Bob Poortinga Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago > I believe the Pennsy's SC&S line still exists in part on Conrail, but would > have to check my Conrail maps for that (wherever they might be). I wonder if > that is the trackage the "bottle" train (hot metal cars) uses in part. (In my best Ed McMahon voice) You are correct, sir! The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports molten iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through Hegewisch Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over to the IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the original Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to Interlake Steel. The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. This is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:16:34 -0500 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: Re: [PRR] ChicagoHobby Show Loco's (long) TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Gize, > Where to start. We, My brother Ed, my close friend Mike Smeltzer and I > arrived at the Rosemont Hobby show as a guest to Randy Lee at Model > Railroading. We hit the floor running and here's what we found. SNIPAGE occurred here > PS. Tomorrow I will start a thread on Passenger cars and freight cars from > the show and my results of putting a Micrometer to the Bachmann 10-2-1 sleep, > you will be pleasantly surprised. Then let's talk about the Prototype > Modelers meet. Any news on the N-Scale front? -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:39:08 EST Subject: [PRR] ChicagoHobby Show Loco's (long) Gize, Where to start. We, My brother Ed, my close friend Mike Smeltzer and I arrived at the Rosemont Hobby show as a guest to Randy Lee at Model Railroading. We hit the floor running and here's what we found. Athearn: We saw the new SD-70 MAC and the detail is some of the best tooling they have done to date. The stanchions will be produced in a form of Delrin. There are draw backs with this type of plastic because it has such a low adhesion for paint. The upside is that because of the type of plastic it can be forced into a mould at higher pressure and allows it to be cast finer. Details are finer as a result. We took a look at the Athearn/Lubeliner F-unit shells up close. They appear to be nearly complete with only work left to be done seemed to be the pilot. They are beautiful but trying to do a make "one shell does all" has it's compromises. One I was made aware of was the exposed truss webbing across from the dynamics is different from the F-3 to the F-7. It has is upside in that the detail is so fine you will want to run it without paint. It is IMHO the most detailed locomotive I have seen in HO scale yet, including brass. Atlas: The only locomotive I saw on display that was "new" (re-release) was the RS-1. A good locomotive. Nuff said. Bachmann: I got a close up look of the Consolidation for the first time at the show. I was amazed at how well the darn thing ran and at the beautiful tooling. To my surprise I found that they are tooling and near completion of a Mountain (4-8-2). The frame and most of the boiler parts are done. It will sport the same drive system as the Consolidation. I guess this is an insight to things to come. As a matter of fact they will retool the K-4 in the future. I wonder what the brass guys are going to do? "the times they are a changin'..." Life Like: I saw the new GP-7 and it was a great effort. I cannot say if it was their best effort ... perhaps their best effort yet. Just discussing the locomotive with Randy Lee at diner brought up a question ... which type of tread was used on the walkway? Or was there? They had their F-3 onhand and what can I say I liked it and bought it 2 weeks ago. They were very tight mouthed at the show itself and did not have a sample of the GP-30 onhand or want to talk about it. However; Larry Grub showed up at the display room in Naperville sporting a sample of the GP-30 and as he walked past the table that Mark Kerlick, my brother Ed and I shared he saw Mark's new brass FM CFA/B -16-44 I made a comment on how beautiful they were and he said "we're going to do them". So something to look forward too. Nothing was said about their 0-8-0 or 2-8-2. I guess we will just have to wait and see. When Mark Kerlick ask about an SD-35 he got a flat NO. This company has had a tremendous run and are rolling the industry forward. What a success story. Kato: Kato had samples of their new RS-2 and RSC-2's. They are very nice locomotives and close examination showed they corrected the cab roof contour and the fireman's window corner post. This has been a problem with the Atlas RS-3 that has not been corrected to date. Sorry, no bad mouthing a competitor. Mike Smeltzer and I ask the rep straight up if they planned more paint scheme like Boston and Maine in one of the 3 paint schemes or New Haven they said that no paint schemes have been ruled out. Very diplomatic. We need to let them know that there is a demand for them to take the first step. EMAIL THEM! Intermountain: Well, we saw the samples of the test shots of the F-7 shell. We saw the fist sample at DesPlaines Hobbies. Then at the show we saw an additional progressive test shots. You could actually tell that each progressive test had some corrections made to the dies ... interesting! Talking with Frank he told us that the first shells should hit the market around but likely right after Christmas, this year . They will be made available as a shell only that you can apply to whichever power frame you wish, Proto-Power, Life Like, Stewart, Athearn, Overland, Hobbytown, or Bachmann. They said the frame is being engineered now and they are looking at all power frames that are available to date and then will pick their spot. Look for the complete frame and shell to be offered around May or June. I included all the frames that came to mind just to show you how many offerings have made their way into the market. They will tool a seperate shell for the F-3, F-2, and F-9 as there are differences in the bodies. The detail was not as tight as the Lubeliner shell but I am not so sure that I need to see the slots in the batten screws, great up very close but at 12 inches away will it be noticeable under paint? Stewart: Steve showed up with his line of F-units from FT's to F-9's and said he would have them back on the market soon. How soon he would not say. I think that he has learned what happens when he makes personal goals public. He also brought running samples of his ALCo C-628's. They are incredible! Then explained that he has left little to chance for the hobby shop owner. Here's the deal you pick shell that has either one sand filler or two sand fillers. The rest of the options are in the kit, both cabs for horizontal or vertical lights and a snow plow. The tooling is incredible! I understood him to say that the Undecs are ready to ship, Mike Smeltzer said he did not pick up on that. They also brought an AS-6-16 and he explained that the new drive will be made in house and engineered like the ALCo C-628. Again no word on how soon, Steve, I wouldn't either and I for one am willing to wait and in the meantime I will run my Athearn/Stewart drive units. Well, what have I forgot? Fire away gize! I will answer what I can. We need to talk this thread through. I could think of another engine that I would have like to see offered by someone would be the FM ERIE Builts. If you are a Pennsy fan remember there were more of these than passenger Sharks and PA/B's combined. Greg Martin PS. Tomorrow I will start a thread on Passenger cars and freight cars from the show and my results of putting a Micrometer to the Bachmann 10-2-1 sleep, you will be pleasantly surprised. Then let's talk about the Prototype Modelers meet. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 02:13:06 -0500 Derrick, Thank you for providing the Miracle address site. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Derrick J > Brashear > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 8:30 AM > To: PRR - Talk Group > Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 > > > On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > > > On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > > > > > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is > it)? If not, is > > >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you > in advance. > > > > I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the > > moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > iirc http://mc.cyklone.com > > -D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:27:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Unitl now I have nothing to say about Joe Zappa and customer service. Jerry's comments make sense to me and may well have had some impact on the fact that my T-1 may be en route back to R.I. For that reason, I am glad he said what he said. I must stress that Joe has dealt with me in a fair fashion and seems to be getting his business back on its feet and I wish for its success. Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Date sent: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:12:28 -0500 From: Jerry To: "PRR-Talk" > On 11/3/98 12:40 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > > > Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and > >say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to > >hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be > >problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well > >Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have > >committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you > >want me > >to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I > >realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think > >that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. > > I think this thread will die off momentarily. The only reason I started > it on the list is because there were several (short of a dozen) who were > already voicing complaints about LMP. I did want to get a warning out > about their situation, not unlike what went on about Nova Tech some time > back. At that time, many individuals voiced their thanks for the posts as > they otherwise would have placed orders. > > The post to the list also seems to have accomplished something that > otherwise was unattainable: It got LMP refocused (at least momentarily) > on customer service and accounts payable. I have been notified that my > funds are on their way via registered mail. Mike has been provided a UPS > tracking number for his T1. Etc. I believe these two statements from Joe > Zappa because if it were not true, why would he dig his hole deeper? > > I anticipate making only one more post to the list regarding this matter, > unless something comes up. That post would be to say that I have received > payment. I believe Mike will do likewise when he receives his T1. That > would only be fair. > > Joe was/is a nice guy. He's just a victim of circumstance, which is > unfortunate. I sympathize with his plight, thus provided him with lots of > time and many opportunities to make it right. However, I (and others) > should not be victimized in the process. Though he may have some > bitterness about all of this, if he removes himself and looks at the > situation from afar, I am sure that he will agree that this was not > handled in the customer's best interest. > > Enough said. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Managing Editor, De Imperatoribus Romanis Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:45:14 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] Bel Del ?s (K-6 class???) I just received a copy of Down Along the Old Bel-Del by Warren Lee through interlibrary loan. It is very interesting, and is offering insights I was never aware of. It's like taking a trip back home and through time, without the 12 hour drive from Indiana. In the Epilogue, he mentions E-6 atlantics and K-6 pacifics? Was there a K-6 class? I know of the K-2, K-3, and some of the experimental double digit K-xx class engines. Might these have run along the branch? (One double digit K-xx class pacific looks exactly like the B&O class P-3 pacific, from Baldwin, 1913... I can't remember the class number) A K-4 is shown to be at Trenton in 1959. What piece of railroad would it have been running on at this time? (it looked to be fired up) The Bel-Del dieselized in 1955. Also, L-1s ran on the branch hauling coal. That was one question I wanted to know about. Who was the person who helped colloborate on the book that lived in Titusville, NJ? Was it George M. Hart? The name rings a bell, and there are many photos credited to him in the book. Thanks for the help, DOUG ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:08:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/3/98 10:59:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobp@tsc.com writes: > The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports > molten > iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through > Hegewisch > Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over to > the > IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the > original > Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to Interlake > Steel. > > The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and > west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. > > It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the > routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. > This > is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle > unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. > > -- > Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > Bloomington, Indiana USA > Thanks, Bob, for this info. I used to go to Burnham Crossing, where the SC&S crosses a bundle of rail lines (South Shore, NKP?, Chicago & Western Indiana?) just northwest of State Line Tower. For some reason I never caught the bottle train, but it was a great show otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:17:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bel Del ?s (K-6 class???) ***Hi, Doug and all - Glad you got Lee's book on the Bel-Del....just remeber, he is not a true railraod historian, as we know of them..... His RR knowledge was gleaned from other sources, so do not take anything literally. Treat it as a pleasant work of remeberances, not always accurate, but interesting. I will have a KEYSTONE article on the Bel-Del soon......the first PRR Branch Line I worked on.......Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Update on Liberty Date: Wed, 4 Nov 98 16:56:35 -0500 From: Jerry Just wanted to pass along that I received full payment today from Liberty Model Productions. Hopefully others will recieve the satisfaction that they were promised from earlier in the week. It's a shame that it took a "concurrent" public barage to get things going, but hopefully this "refocusing" will get LMP back on track with their future endeavors. Thanks for coming through, Joe. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Info Date: Wed, 4 Nov 98 19:15:26 -0500 From: Jerry The "Milepost", the newsletter of the Friends of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, arrived today. It has many answers to questions posed on this list over the past year or so. The article was written as of 1948. 1) It has a photo of the PRR freight house next to the coach yards south of the passenger station. It features a B6sb switching and was taken in 1920. The Harrisburg Gas Company clearly has those real large gas tanks....not a small facility as I had thought; 2) A photo of the front facade of the Reading Railroad station. It opened in 1904 and was razed in 1956. Frontage of 150' and depth of 83'; 3) Most passenger power west of Harrisburg was K4 and T1; 4) The daily interchange jaunt between the PRR's Enola Yard and the Reading's Rutherford Yard was typically powered by an L1s; 5) A-B-B-A sets of F3's seen at Enola; strings of M1's with 110P75 tenders on storage tracks at Enola; 6) Turntable at passenger facility was longest on the line, at 125', and built specifically to handle the 123'9-1/4" wheelbase of the S1 #6100 which never actually made it to the city. Indicates that the "standard" turntable on the system was 110'. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:29:27 EST Subject: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars Hey Yuze Gize, Let talk about the new Freight cars we saw at the MRIA show. Athearn: Same old molds just new "collectors" paints :^0 Ho Hum! ACCURAIL: We talked to Dennis at length and he showed us his up coming doubled deck autorack circa 1968, but with a little swapin' and jivin' you can come up with an early 60's autorack too. He had samples of the entire line and the newly released retool ex-FrontRange/McKeen-Skylim 50' semi modern exterior post boxcar. It comes in a 10' plug door and sliding door option. Nice work for the market Denis is trying to reach. I like his products and attitude about the hobby and modelers. He warned me not to take my ACCURAIL cars to the Prototype Modelers Display for fear I may be arrested by the FreightCar Police, I did and I was not and BTW I got quite a few compliments on them. I had ask him about the tooling for the Front Range 40' boxcar that had 4/4 dreadnaught ends that had the ladders tooled on the car he said that they went to Red Caboose, but they claimed they did not have them. ;^( ??? I would love to see this kit retooled with separate ladders and details. Bachmann: Nothing new but I did have an opportunity to put a Micrometer to the 10-2-1 at my friend Mike Smeltzer's basement before flying out on Sunday. What I found was, base on the RIVEROSSI cars (given they are correct), the windows that Tom Madden of the PCL had mention that they appeared too big are slightly shorter, about 1 scale inch, and 15 thousandths of an inch wider than the RIVEROSSI car. Andy Harmon had posted what RR's he felt that the car covered in its window arrangement, to that I will add at least one Pennsy car. Red Caboose: They had their samples ready of the former Front Range 40' box car that they had invested some retooling in. Someone said that the ends were retooled if they were they made them look the same to me. The side were definitely retooled and the doors and ladders were all new tooling as well as the grabs and the tack boards. They looked very clean! I can't wait to get my hands on them. They are going to be offered in 6' and 8' doors and later 7' doors. They also exhibited a draft for the tooling of the ART reefer that is on the drawing table. Good stuff! But still looking for the 4/4 dreadnaught end tooling? Life Like: The only cars Life Like had at the show was the P1K PC/WP National Steel Car Co. car produced as the PC X-72 and X-72A car. They were in the road specific paint for WP and PC but I can see no reason for not painting the car in CR and CNA as these road had them too. Food for thought. Later at the Naperville Larry Grub was sporting the newest car for the Proto 2000 series which will be the ARR 50 ton 52'6'' flat car. Excellent detail they even tooled the hole for the spikes in the side stake pockets. Off the top of my head this car is good for UP, NKP, ERIE, ACL, D&RGW, C&O and more. I only wished it was the 70 ton car, there was far more examples. Branchline: They were displaying samples of their soon to be released 50' 8' single door boxcar. They had some of the tooling for the 40' car onhand also. I had a conversation with Bill Schneider and met the die cutter working on the passenger cars. The first to be released will be the 12-1 in plan 2410 and then the 10-1-2 at some time in the future. He thanked me for the use of the 8X10 B&W heavyweight photo's I had sent him to use as reference, my pleasure Bill if you are out there. We should see some beautiful stuff from him in the future. Challenger: They had samples of their PRR Congo cars and Senator cars. Nice, expensive but very, very nice. Coach Yard; I saw their Santa FE cars and again nice, spendy, but very very nice. Walthers: Nuttin' new that I saw. Con-Cor: They may have had something new but I did not stop in as I am not in their market. Bethlehem Car Works: The one thing that stands out the most is a 40' PRR Trailer in cast resin! Can't wait! Well, what did I miss, sure I forgot something. Greg Martin PS Tomorrow I will have a commentary on Naperville, f you have never been plan too. I only hope that Martin Loftin is ready to expand, this show is a must and next year Jim Six will make it if I have to have him kidnapped! Lots of folks were looking forward to seeing him, although I understand with his work schedule and the SEMRA Convention he is up to his.... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:32:36 EST Subject: [PRR] modern news... ***CSX announce that their "new" double track, reversible traffic line between Greenwich, OH and Chicago is open and in service as of today. ( Nice to see some new construction versus destruction....) The line represents a $220 million investment for the 270 mile route. Including 100 route miles of new track....250 miles upgraded...Rev. traffic, crossovers, and some new interchange links to other RRs. School programs and operation lifesaver specials to be roaming the area to re- acquaint the local folks about what rail traffic used to be ( busy ) before the line's traffic is to be significantly increased.....allowing for an adjustment period..... = CSX News release.. In udder noooze....USX announced a 70% curtailment of production at the Fairless Works ( near former PRR Morrisville yard, PA )....claimed that illegal foreign steel dumping / imports was affecting their sales... It wasn't that long ago ( decades...?) that I could remember Mo'ville CHOKED with traffic for Fairless, with the Reading line busy, also.........bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 12:50:54 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 5 Nov, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Nothing new but I did have an opportunity to put a Micrometer to the > 10-2-1 at my friend Mike Smeltzer's basement before flying out on Sunday. > What I found was, base on the RIVEROSSI cars (given they are correct), the > windows that Tom Madden of the PCL had mention that they appeared too big are > slightly shorter, about 1 scale inch, and 15 thousandths of an inch wider than > the RIVEROSSI car. If the N Rivarossi models are scaled down directly from the HO, the area above the windows is about half as tall as it should be. I've been investigating adding the postwar gold stripes to some of my PRR Rivarossi heavyweights, and the PENNSYLVANIA takes up the entire height above the windows, leaving no room for a properly aligned stripe. *sigh* Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:17:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE Folks, I was just looking through the latest catalog sheets from Bethlehem Car Works, and I was reminded to find out if anyone can tell me what the Pennsy "B62" car is. It's obviously a baggage car, but the 62 is throwing me off. B60, B70 or B74 is fine, but a B62? Anyone that can fill me in? Thanks, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Reading-Talk List Date: Thu, 5 Nov 98 17:33:18 -0500 From: Jerry If anyone cares, my server is now serving a Reading Railroad list, "Reading-Talk". For more info, see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/readingtalk.html Other than the list, I will not be getting into Reading stuff. This serves a need, but my emphasis will remain "PRR Forever"! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:19:21 -0500 Barry, The PRR B62 baggage express cars were ex-Reading cars. Quoting from the instruction sheet in my kit: Car #7940 & #7941 are ex-Reading class Bau Car # 7942 was ex-Reading class MBr Car #7943 was ex-Reading class MBe Car #7944-7953 are ex-Reading class Bau There is a photograph of a PRR B62 in Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Volume 2 at the bottom of page 31. The caption says the PRR acquired 14 of these cars from the Reading in May, 1964. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com ; pcl@railnet.nshore.org Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 7:32 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE >Folks, >I was just looking through the latest catalog sheets from Bethlehem Car Works, >and I was reminded to find out if anyone can tell me what the Pennsy "B62" car >is. It's obviously a baggage car, but the 62 is throwing me off. B60, B70 or >B74 is fine, but a B62? Anyone that can fill me in? Thanks, >Barry Peltier > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 11:27:07 -0500 Greg, You said (in part): " Bachmann: . . . Andy Harmon had posted what RR's he felt that the car covered in its window arrangement, to that I will add at least one Pennsy car." I don't know if you have your "Andys" confused or if Andy Harmon also wrote a posting about the prototypes for the Bachmann Pullman which I did not see. I wrote one some time ago in which I identified some 20+ instances of the car. Most were C&O. I could not find a PRR instance. What is the car you discovered? BTW I painted my Bachmann 10-2-1 for SOUTHERN ("Thomas Ruffin") as this car was in thru service on the Birmingham Special as the drop car from NY Penn Station to Knoxville TN, and therefore appeared on PRR tracks. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:23:42 -0600 Anyone know just how long the metal will stay molten in a "bottle car"? This would seem to be the limiting factor on a route for a "bottle train". Bill Laird > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Poortinga [SMTP:bobp@tsc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 9:19 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago > > The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports > molten > iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through > Hegewisch > Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over > to the > IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the > original > Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to > Interlake > Steel. > > The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and > west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. > > It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the > routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. > This > is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle > unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. > > -- > Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > Bloomington, Indiana USA > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LCL Shipping (Freight House vs. REA) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 15:58:52 -0500 From: Jerry Can anyone provide a somewhat brief dissertation on LCL (less than car load) shipping on the PRR. For instance: At Harrisburg there was both the REA station & a very large freight station. What went where? Was all REA traffic transported by passenger trains? Were the cars destined for the freight station transferred by freight trains? And were the latter of the "Merchandise Service" variety, as an example? My thought is that REA was probably very small items, directed towards the consumer. Whereas the freight station was probably more sizable items, typically business customers, who did not have enough to warrant a full car, or who were not rail-served directly. Is this train of thought somewhat correct? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:29:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) In a message dated 98-11-06 11:11:04 EST, you write: > Anyone know just how long the metal will stay molten in a "bottle > car"? This would seem to be the limiting factor on a route for a "bottle > train". You know, I move hot metal cars around several times a week, watch them pour every morning etc. but never wondered about the length of time the iron will stay molten. I have quite a bit of info. regarding the mixer type cars, as they are correctly called, so I'll have to look it up. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:48:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Shipping (Freight House vs. REA) Jerry, Only have time for a short reply, but there are some really good articles on this subject which I hope I can list out a bit later.But it sounds like you're on the right track as far as shipments, at least to a degree. REA was more or less a direct competitor to the post office and was something of a forerunner to UPS and etc. Both business and privite parties used their services. Those green REA trucks used to be as common as UPS is today, making deliveries and pick ups. Pennsy used to run trains dedicated entirely to REA, though most passenger trains carried express in their 'baggage' cars. LCL was largely business-related, but it was by no means unusual for a citizen to make a shipment this way. Up here in the Twin Cities the NP and GN continued LCL service long after most roads gave it up because the highway systems were so bad in the Dakotas and Montana. The big difference with REA was the lower rates and much slower service. But a farmer could ship a tractor part, say, to Minneapolis Moline for an exchange if it was winter and he was in no big hurry for the new part. If it took three days each way via freight rather than 1 day via REA. it was no big deal. But I gotta run and I'm sure this subject will be a good one. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:02:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [OPSIG] Re: adding the caboose In a message dated 11/6/98 4:56:49 PM Central Standard Time, dgeiger@oneimage.com writes: << Got a question for all you operator types: It's always been my understanding that a cut of cars should never be backed into a caboose whenever possible. Stated another way, the caboose was usual