Subject: [PRR] Liberty Model Productions - Financial Default Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 15:29:34 -0500 From: Jerry This is to serve notice to "PRR-Talk" subscribers who might have current interests in, or future interests in Liberty Model Productions. Liberty Model Productions and Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania had an agreement whereby Desktop Solutions traded their services (web site editing) for Liberty Model Productions products (K5, streamlined K4, etc.). It was also agreed on that if LMP did not bring products to market in a timely manner that DS could call in the debt in cash. As you all know, LMP has done very little towards bringing any of these products to market. In August, we offered to allow LMP to fulfill a portion of the obligation to us by sending us a Bowser T1 kit. The claimed to have ordered it, but it has never shown. I even brought it to Mr. Zappa's attention that he could have purchased one via mail order for under $150 and sent it to us to fulfill $200 worth of debt (list price). He still failed to do so. Mr. Zappa was given the deadline of Oct. 31 to meet his obligation, in full, or face legal consequence. He was again reminded last week. Here was his response: ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 10/26 5:03 PM Received: 10/27 6:17 AM From: Liberty, liberty@infonline.net To: jbritton@dsop.com Jerry, No problem. I will ensure that we get payment in full to you before the 31st. Thanks, Joe Z. ---------- > From: Jerry Britton > To: Joe Zappa > Cc: jbritton@dsop.com > Subject: End of Month Nears > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 4:02 PM > > Joe: > > Just a friendly reminder that the end of the month nears. To avoid any > hassles, legal and otherwise, please mail your full payment to arrive to > me by October 31, using overnight mail, if necessary. > > I am hopefull that your business will recover from your current situation > and will allow you to promote your products successfully at future > PRRT&HS conventions. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- No form of payment has arrived through and including Oct. 31. All papers concerning the matter have been forwarded to our attorney. Every piece of e-mail ever sent to us by LMP is included, including the entire financial arrangement. Because the total amount is just under $500, it qualifies for small claims court. Mr. Zappa will be summoned to appear in York County Court. If he does not show, he will lose the case (although I fully expect him to lose anyway). If he then does not pay, he will be found in contempt of court and a warrant issued for his arrest. (This information was provided by my attorney.) I have given Mr. Zappa more than enough leeway. However, he's going to learn that once I start a battle, I take no prisoners! Since he offers detail products to many types of hobbies, I will be forwarding an accounting of his business practices to all major modeling periodicals. I will also be notifying the Pennsylvania Fish and Game Commission, for whom he (supposedly) has a major contract with to produce a "fish stocking" car. Although I suspect that this contract has already met with problems. Okay, enough of my rant, now others (and I know you are out there) can share your exciting experiences with LMP. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty Model Productions - Financial Default Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 18:15:15 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 3:29 PM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >This is to serve notice to "PRR-Talk" subscribers who might have current >interests in, or future interests in Liberty Model Productions. Forgot to mention, I took the liberty of updating his former web site to reflect that he is "in default of his financial obligations". http://liberty.dsop.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:40:18 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] 1941 Equipment Registry Hello everyone, I would like to ask the list for a bit of help if I may. I just received this message from Stanley W. Johnson, the noted author on the Milwaukee road: >Do you have access a roster of Milwaukee Olympian sleeping cars (both their >home-made tourist sleepers and their Pullman-made Standard sleeping cars) by >name circa 1941? Or, perhaps, a copy of the 1941 Equipment Registry from which >the relevant pages might be copied? > >Also I desperately need the inside pages of a Milwaukee Road Diner evening >menu from the period of 1939 to 1941. Any of the three years will do but >1941 would be my preference. I have the breakfast and the luncheon menues, >but not the dinner one. Just the data, not the menu itself is what I need. >Stan Johnson > >swjohnson@silverlink.net ===== I doubt if we can help with the Milwaukee menu, but does anyone have a 1941 Equipment Registry that they would be willing to make xeroxi of? Thanks for your help. Please contact me or Stan Johnson if you have anything. Regards, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Renovo Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:52:40 -0800 Just got back from my trip to PA. I promised to get to the facts about the Renovo yards and the coaling tower there. Here they are. According to the Clinton County Economic Partnership (CCEP), they now own the entire yard. As of approximately 15 months ago they bought the east end of the yards from the man who owns the cabooses. The CCEP has signed a 10 year lease-purchase agreement with a company out of Georgia known there as Fitzgeralds Rail Company. The name will probably be different in Pa once operations begin. This company has been building cars for many railroads not strictly for Norfolk Southern who is a customer and not an affilliation. The coaling tower is in a 2-4 acre parcel slated to become a Heritage Park. This is part of the agreement. It is the intention of the CCEP to have this area preserved along with the tower. The CCEP is disappointed with the response of the local turnout at a meeting to set up this park and preserve the tower. I spoke with Wes Grand the Chief Operating Officer for the CCEP. He was concerned that I was from a historical group that might try to interfere with their plans for the yards; but, once I allieviated that fear, he was quite forthcomming with information. In the same breath he said, " if its jobs or historical preservation, jobs come first" then he told me the intentions with the tower and the Heritage Park. He went on to describe a plan to move the old hump weight house to the tower area in the Heritage Park. "It shouldn't cost much, around $30-35,000" he said. Sounds like a commitment to preservation to me! The X29 boxcar is now owned by the CCEP and is to eventually be preserved in the park also. The cabooses, approximately 20-30, that are still there are to be removed by the owner. He had 30 months from the signing to remove them. That gives him about 15 months. I heard he was taking them out by truck. Possibly last chance for anyone interested. I know some are Lehigh Valley, possibly a Reading, many seem to be New Haven. There are others I have doubts about posssibly Erie/Lackawanna vintage. There are three PRR N5s left. Also there is a heavyweight PRR in MOW yellow still on the grounds, as well as a NYC heavyweight. I believe an old pullman car. Don't quote me on that. That is enough for now. Greg Stone member PRRT&HS Interest in Renovo ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:35:38 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Liberty Models Hello guys.... I'm sorry to hear what is going on with Joe Zappa..... I had hoped that this would'nt go the way of "Nova Tech" in its turn out..... Joe still can do something about all of this ...but its mainly up to him.... Joe has some models of mine that i would like to get back.... Some samples i sent him. I had made the K-5 prototype and finished it and the N-8 as well....Like i've said before...I still hope something gets worked out either way. I can only hope i get them back. The K-5 and N-8 are his property and he can do with them as he wishes. Joe if you get to read this...there are many who are upset with you. Please...if you can't produce these models....give Miracle a shot... It might help you out.... I can only hope all the best for all concerned...I really hate to see things like this happen....but Joe has said many things and made many promises...I feel his biggest short coming was not keeping us all up to date on what is happening and why...this is not to say that he has to tell us what is going on with him in his personal life... But it does look bad when you keep quiet about things and keep folks hanging.... Well all thats my two cents on this....I don't want to discredit Joe on any honest effort he still might be tring to make. But as i said the ball is in his court. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty Models Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 20:38:59 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 7:35 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > Joe still can do something about all of this ...but its mainly > up to him.... > Joe has some models of mine that i would like to get back.... > Some samples i sent him. I had made the K-5 prototype and finished it > and the N-8 as well....Like i've said before...I still hope something > gets worked out either way. I can only hope i get them back. > The K-5 and N-8 are his property and he can do with them as he wishes. Hank, if you made the prototypes, would they not be your "intellectual property"? Or did Joe pay you for the work? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 20:44:16 -0500 From: Jerry It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server. Actually, this I knew. It was brought to my attention over two months ago while it was under development. I asked Joe about it, and he said he would be switching to his new site after a while, he had an "inside person" that wanted to maintain it. We agreed on October 31 as his cutoff date. This was close enough to our contracted "60 day notice" so I was happy, and his web hosting fees are paid up. So, in this one respect, Joe Zappa HAS met his financial obligations. I chose to leave his old site up after Oct. 31, free of charge, because the world is bookmarked to it as are all of the search engines and I can now use it as a conduit to spread the good word about Mr. Zappa's venture. ;-) http://liberty.dsop.com Kevin Tulley's web site, I think you will find, is excrutiatingly slow...even by my standards! I believe Kevin got involved with Joe by supplying masters for the American Steel series (one car!) that Liberty is hawking. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:22:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial drive system? What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to get it come up. Todd Horton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:00:10 PST To all on the PRR-Talk list, I have recieved several posts on Joe Zappa's site and business via this mailing list. Being good friends with Joe, and as most of you are on at least speaking terms with Joe, I would like to make a few comments, and will include exerpts from this letter: >It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server.< Yes, this is true. Joe and I have been working on the site for about two months now. And since we are "laying it all out", the request came not just from Joe, but from SEVERAL emails sent to Joe reguarding the consistancy of NOT BEING ABLE TO ACCESS LMP'S WEB SITE. As Joe new that my site was tied into Aims Inc., a LARGE internet provider and company specializing in Web Design and systems (which also has a DIRECT FEED to a fiber optic system), and the FACT that people can ALWAYS access my site with a SHORT DURATION download time, he felt this was the best way to go. >It was brought to my attention over two months ago while it was under development. I asked Joe about it, and he said he would be switching to his new site after a while, he had an "inside person" that wanted to maintain it. We agreed on October 31 as his cutoff date. This was close enough to our contracted "60 day notice" so I was happy, and his web hosting fees are paid up. So, in this one respect, Joe Zappa HAS met his financial obligations.< This is also true. I am the "inside person", as I now work directly for LMP as their Model Railroad Project and Selection Manager. Why not have someone that works for the company also maintain the web site? Why subcontract if you don't have to? >I chose to leave his old site up after Oct. 31, free of charge, because the world is bookmarked to it as are all of the search engines and I can now use it as a conduit to spread the good word about Mr. Zappa's venture. ;-) http://liberty.dsop.com< >Kevin Tulley's web site, I think you will find, is excrutiatingly slow...even by my standards! I believe Kevin got involved with Joe by supplying masters for the American Steel series (one car!) that Liberty is hawking.< I find the statement above to be in poor taste. As far as my site being slow, I've had several people around the country time how long it takes to download the main page. One of which was in Rockhill Furnace, PA and one in Anchorage, AK. Both said less than 45 seconds. I have timed Mr. Bretons site at 1.50 minutes. Given that the PRR site has many advertisements and graphics, I don't think this is "excrutiatingly slow", but it could be a little quicker. As for the American Steel series, true, only one car has been released and is in production, but two more are in the molds now. We (LMP and myself) aren't Athearn or Accurail, but if you talk to anyone who knows anything about those companies, they'll tell you that any item to be released doesn't just happen over night. We went from idea to production on the Ingot Mold Car in three months. Not bad for a "cottage industry". As for the comment about the N8, it's in line for molding, and should be on the shelves in the spring. As many of you may know, Joe is going through a divorce. I'm sure there are more than just a few of you on this group who have been through one, myself included. I'd like you all to think about what goes on during a divorce, and give Joe a break. He could use our support about now, rather than our grief. I know Joe very well, and if he told Jerry that the check was in the mail, it damn well was. With a popular page like the Keystone Crossings, I would think Jerry would have a little more couth than to "jump the gun" and start talking about winning a case and Joe getting arrested. "Barracks lawyers" comments are not needed or do they belong on this mailing list. One last thing, and this is for Jerry, IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH ME, CALL ME AND WE'LL MEET SOMEWHERE AND SOLVE THEM LIKE MEN. EATHER THROUGH CONVERSATION LIKE MATURE ADULTS, OR BY WHATEVER MEANS YOU DEEM NECESSARY. 'Nuff said. Lets all remember that this is a hobby or past time for us, and we're supposed to be having fun and fellowship, not knifing eachother in the back. Kevin Tully Model Railroader. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:18:25 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 10:22 PM, CENTGA@aol.com (CENTGA@aol.com) wrote: >Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc >are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial >drive system? >What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also >has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to >get it >come up. Todd Horton 1. Yes, I've laid eyes on one and still have it. A review of the work was done on the list a month ago. Check the archives. 2. They don't use any drive, trucks, etc., because it is a "shell" product. Although they recommend an Athearn PA mechanism, several folks plan to use P2K mechanisms. 3. My web site had trouble between 10/28-31. I installed a new rev (beta) of the server software and it caused lockups. On the 31st I installed a new beta rev. Problem persisted. Late on the 31st I downgraded to the previous final release. Should be working fine now. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:48:10 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc > are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial > drive system? > What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also > has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to get it > come up. Todd Horton Hit the archives; Both Jerry and i already reviewed it -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: TAN Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:27:31 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 11:00 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: > I'd like you all to think about what goes >on during a divorce, and give Joe a break. He could use our support >about now, rather than our grief. I know Joe very well, and if he told >Jerry that the check was in the mail, it damn well was. I've given Joe a break since August. He owes me close to $500. I gave him options. He said he would take them (meet part of balance via T1 which he buys at wholesale). I gave him time, time, and more time. He was warned of legal action a month ago. So don't tell me I shouldn't "jump the gun", as I actually restrained others from attacking his character and business earlier in the month. I told them Joe had a 10/31 deadline with me and asked them to await that outcome. That date came and went, and this thread is the result. Let's just say, he won't work in this town (PRR) any more! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:23:55 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 11:00 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: > One last thing, and this is for Jerry, IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH >ME, CALL ME AND WE'LL MEET SOMEWHERE AND SOLVE THEM LIKE MEN. EATHER >THROUGH CONVERSATION LIKE MATURE ADULTS, OR BY WHATEVER MEANS YOU DEEM >NECESSARY. 'Nuff said. I don't have any beef with you. After all, I provided you with the PRR2000 list at no cost. I wouldn't have done that otherwise. My server is slower than desired due to my 56K connection. Your server, and others have timed it, takes over 2 minutes to load LMP page, your RR page, or the PRR2000 project page. This is true when using Navigator 4.x, IE 3x or 4x. The site I am sitting at when I try this has a 384K connection. Only thing I can think of is that I sit behind a firewall and your system doesn't like that. I do not have this problem elsewhere. In fact, my entire page with graphics fully loads faster than yours do, and yours are light on graphics! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:36:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken elsewhere? If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles do not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:21:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: getting singed by the flames.... In a message dated 98-11-02 09:02:57 EST, you write: << ubj: Re: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: 98-11-02 09:02:57 EST From: shadow@dementia.org (Derrick J Brashear) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken elsewhere? If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles do not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... -D >> *****Thanks Derrick - I strongly second this...!!!! Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:51:29 PST Received: from [198.81.17.1] by hotmail.com (1.0) with SMTP id MHotMail30874698002723506532495332720153714205; Mon Nov 02 06:30:07 1998 Received: from PRRSignals@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RKVCa10440 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:28:41 -0500 (EST) From: PRRSignals@aol.com Message-ID: <8eb997e2.363dc199@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:28:41 EST To: t1duplex@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 *********whew....Hi, Kevin - Listen, I am an old blacksmith O scaler, now in G, so the turmoil I am forced to read about is of little interest to me, product-wise.....glad for anything that makes folks happy, whatever scale.... BUTT, I was very glad you, ummm, corrected that situation, and gave jerry a well-deserved shot. Again, don't mean no never-moind to me, butt....wrong is wrong. While I am not divorced ( yet..?? hahhaha)...I have walked several pals thru it, and I would not want to be held responsible for any petty BS I did while going thru Hell. Thanks for your moderate and fair stance......to me, lawyers are my LAST RESORT. Geesh, no patience, jump right to legal rather than human methods of working things out..... Anyway, thanks, he needed that smacking..!!!! HAHHAHAH. pLEASE HELP jz ALL YOU CAN, AS i KNOW YOU WILL (OOoops, caps lock, me pissed)... anyway, good of you....I appreciate......just to let you know you are on target with me, just another guy......Bill*** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:04:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Need phone number Does any one have Kevin Tully's phone number? Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Managing Editor, De Imperatoribus Romanis Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:21:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Civility I have always enjoyed prr-talk because of the civility that always accompnied our disputes, and being opinionated SPF's these are inevitable. Lately the problems around Liberty have generated an unprecedented degree of acrimony. Enough, we don't need this. In addition, as an attorney, with nearly 30 years at the bar, I advise all to remember 2 things 1. Making statements that relate to another persons character and disparage him in his trade or business may be actionable, even if true, when then show him in a false light. 2. This is even more dangerous where the statement-maker is in business himself and the statement might be trade disparagement. Lets keep this to PRR items. Jerry Finefrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:08:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago Guys, Paul Kossart asks the below question about Panhandle trackage in Chicago. Can anyone who knew Chicago well verify the Campbell's plant and other details of trackage between Ash Street Junction and Brighton Park Junction? Thanks, Rick Tipton PCC&StL/PRR Lines West Louisville, KY In a message dated 11/2/98 1:21:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, kozys@theramp.net writes: > Hi Rick, > > I > was wondering if you had any info. or sources of same on the Pensy > Panhandle Route in Chicago, specifically going past and serving Campbell > Soup's plant on 35th Street on the South side. The reason I ask is that I > grew up railfanning switching and mainline traffic behind the plant in the > middle sixties. Somebody told me once or I read that the tracks there were > the Pensy Panhandle Line but I never had any definite info on if it was or > not. I recall seeing Pensy, B&O & C&O but there were MANY tracks up there. > I was around ten to twelve years old at the time. If you could help at > all would be much appreciated if for no other reason than nostalgic. If it > helps at all, the location was between Ash Street Junction and Brighton > Park(?) Junction. > > THX . . . > Paul Kossart > kozys@theramp.net > NMRA, LDSIG, OPSIG, SigSIG, BRHS, TP&W-HS > LaSalle & Bureau County Model R.R. Club > Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Model R.R. (HO) > Illiniwek River Branch - 1969 > THINK GLOBALLY, ACT LOCALLY, DRESS CASUALLY! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:18:17 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:36:39 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear writes: >So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken >elsewhere? >If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles >do >not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... > >-D I must agree. Sincerely, David W. "SGT" York ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:51:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Diesel Locomotives On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Patrick M Egan wrote: > Among other things are C-Liners and Lima Transfer Locomotives. These are > indicated as having "Trainstuff Mfg." shells and Hobbytown drive > components. > > There are a lot of questions that come to mind, but the first ones are, > who is Trainstuff, and what's the quality? > > Any body have any knowledge of this "stuff"? Word from someone whose opinion I trust is the Lima Centercab is crude; Only the rounded cab windows give it the Lima "look". That said, I have no yet seen one myself. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 15:32:28 -0500 From: Jerry Okay, here's one more "good thing" I am doing for Joe...here's his NEW web address for those who have been asking: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Also, I commented earlier about the slowness of the site, while admitting the slowness of my own site...the slowness seems related to the new site not dealing politely with firewalls and proxy servers. In "sniffing" packets, it seems to be trying to determine the IP of the client and/or place cookies, which the firewall is blocking. In accessing the same page from a non-protected system, the page loads in about 45 seconds. However, many graphics are missing. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:45:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine has. He states that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks which the cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel spacing to determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:45:09 PST To everyone, To the best of my knowledge, neither my site or Aims Inc. approves of "cookies" and "spam". And, to the best of my knowledge, these types of programs are not in place concerning my site. Kevin Tully Received: from [199.224.69.130] by hotmail.com (1.0) with SMTP id MHotMail30874941023823506532501335336384286331; Mon Nov 02 13:15:53 1998 Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com (AppleShare IP Mail Server 5.0.2) id 449493 via TCP with SMTP; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:45:07 +0000 Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com with POP3; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:36:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 15:32:28 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Jerry To: "PRR-Talk" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Okay, here's one more "good thing" I am doing for Joe...here's his NEW web address for those who have been asking: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Also, I commented earlier about the slowness of the site, while admitting the slowness of my own site...the slowness seems related to the new site not dealing politely with firewalls and proxy servers. In "sniffing" packets, it seems to be trying to determine the IP of the client and/or place cookies, which the firewall is blocking. In accessing the same page from a non-protected system, the page loads in about 45 seconds. However, many graphics are missing. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:33:59 PST The New site address is: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Please remember that the site is under construction, and that I am open to suggestions on making the site better. I'd also like to hear some download times, if any of you don't mind taking the time to do that. Kevin Tully Hi all, Dumb question... What's Liberty's new web address? With all the mud slung around here no one thought to mention what it was! I went to the old page, expecting maybe a link but all that's there is a broken image link and more mud.... Gotta love the professional way this whole thing is being handled! Rob To all on the PRR-Talk list, I have recieved several posts on Joe Zappa's site and business via this mailing list. Being good friends with Joe, and as most of you are on at least speaking terms with Joe, I would like to make a few comments, and will include exerpts from this letter: >It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server.< Yes, this is true. Joe and I have been working on the site for about two months now. And since we are "laying it all out", the request came not just from Joe, but from SEVERAL emails sent to Joe reguarding the consistancy of NOT BEING ABLE TO ACCESS LMP'S WEB SITE. As Joe new that my site was tied into Aims Inc., a LARGE internet provider and company specializing in Web Design and systems (which also has a DIRECT FEED to a fiber optic system), and the FACT that people can ALWAYS access my site with a SHORT DURATION download time, he felt this was the best way to go. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:01:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in Chicago. The north south lines in and out of Chicago where not part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. INfact the Panhandle actually refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia only, i.e., the Panhandle Division. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:22:38 -0500 (EST) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh > traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. True. (Via the Vandalia Lines ...) > The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and > terminated in Chicago. True. > The north south lines in and out of Chicago where not > part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. Sorry, an overgeneralization. The lines from Columbus, Richmond, and Indianapolis, converging at Logansport, and proceeding via North Judson to Chicago were called "Panhandle" and were part of the PCC&StL, which was nicknamed "the Panhandle". > All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. True. > INfact the Panhandle actually > refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia Yes. > only, i.e., the Panhandle Division. No, too restrictive a definition. See above. In case there is any doubt, the _Centennial History_, p. 825 [Index], lists as an entry: PANHANDLE LINE, trade name of Pitts., Cin. & St. Louis Ry. Co. _and successors_ (italics mine). Under the latter name, a line item lists ...; consolidated to form P.C.C.&St.L. Ry. Co. (1890), 380, 509; -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:44:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 In a message dated 11/2/98 6:11:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes in part: << I have not checked the wheel spacing to determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. >> Hi Guys, According to the "Model Railroader, Cyclopedia-Vol. 2, Diesel Locomotives" the wheel spacing (on the trucks) is the same for the PA and the BP-20 at 7' 9". They do however, have different diameter wheels. 40 inches on the PA, and 42 inches on the BP-20. (While I'm here and lookin) the wheelbase (measured from center wheel to center wheel) is 34' 2" on the PA, and 46' 3 1/2" on the BP-20. George ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 20:15:26 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/2/98 5:45 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine has. He states >that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks which the >cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel spacing to >determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. A few weeks back on the list, maybe six, someone researched and found that the trucks themselves were identical, from the same OEM. So, PA trucks on a BP20 works. Miracle provides a chassis, so all you are mounting is the power trucks, not the entire PA chassis. That takes care of the truck spacing. When discussing BP20's, please be very sure to specify Miracle Castings (if that is what you are referring to) as there are also the apparently much lower quality Sharks from Hobbytown (or whatever it was) in Boston. I don't want to see MC get a bad rep for another's work! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:08:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/2/98 6:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, SUVCW ORR writes: > How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh > traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. > > The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois > and terminated in Chicago. The north south lines in and out of Chicago where > not part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. > > All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. INfact the Panhandle actually > refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia only, i.e., the > Panhandle Division. > Rich, No one should argue with your observation that all Lines West are not part of the Panhandle. Certainly the Fort Wayne and the Cleveland & Pittsburgh are Lines West, but not "Lines Southwest". And I am usually the first to point out that the Panhandle's principal trains ran the route between Pittsburgh and St. Louis, as this is the routing I model. But the rest -- OUCH! I'm sorry but I don't agree -- my research says the Panhandle went to Chicago. You may not have seen a large number of previous postings on PRR-Talk and MEMRA about this subject, concerning the Panhandle in Chicago and Logansport, Chicago interlockings and surviving physical plant, and other goodies. To summarize: PRR's CHICAGO APPROACHES The Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago, nicknamed "The Fort Wayne", was Pennsy's most famous way into Chicago. Route of the Broadway and a host of other name trains and first class mail schedules, the Fort Wayne went into Chicago via Crestline OH, Lima, Van Wert, Fort Wayne IN, Plymouth, and Gary. It ran near the lakeshore, passed through Englewood Union Station, and headed straight north for the south end of Chicago Union Station. Less celebrated and certainly ignored by the railfan press, there was a spider's web of lines in Ohio/Indiana that were operated as part of Lines Southwest, and thus shared the nickname "the Panhandle". These lines brought PRR freight and passenger traffic to Chicago from Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville, and at one time even from St. Louis. All these routes came together at a major complex of yards and shops and interlocking plants in Logansport Indiana, where the Pennsy and the Wabash crossed the Wabash River and each other. The "second" PRR mainline into Chicago left VAN tower in Logansport IN, passing through North Judson IN, crossing diamonds at Dolton IL and at least a dozen other suburban places in the Chicago area, to pass west of downtown and ultimately approach Chicago Union Station from the north, paralleling the Milwaukee Road's approach. LOGANSPORT AS PANHANDLE TRAFFIC HUB All the 7 lines out of Logansport were PCC&StL, and are so marked on various maps. As posted before, they went (naming clockwise from the north) to 1. South Bend via Plymouth IN (South Bend Branch) 2. Butler IN (Wabash connection) via Columbia City (Eel River Line) 3. Columbus OH via Bradford OH (Columbus & Indiana Central) 4. Cincinnati OH via Richmond IN (Richmond Branch) 5. Louisville KY via Frankfort and Indianapolis (I&F Branch) 6. TP&W at Effner IN (Effner Branch) 7. Chicago via North Judson, Dolton, 59th Street, Western Ave Logansport itself was once a hot spot of Pennsy activity, with 4 separate freight yards, a car shop, and (at least in the 1880s) manufacture of new locomotives for the PCC&StL. Significantly, it had a freight house much larger than usual for the size of the town. I've found very little written about Logansport, but we did some postings a while back on our onsite archaeology and some maps found; this really begs an article by someone who knows the area's history intimately. But from size of facilities, Logansport really handled some freight traffic. PANHANDLE FREIGHT AND PASSENGER SERVICE TO/FROM CHICAGO In later years, PRR passenger trains to Louisville, Cincinnati, and Columbus left CUS to the south (on the Fort Wayne main), and gained rails to Logansport via a cutoff somewhere down near Colehour Yard. This would have included the South Wind, the Kentuckian, and the Union But presumably freights on the Panhandle came out of 59th Street Yard, which previous postings have established was north and west of Englewood by some distance. WHAT'S IN A (NICK)NAME? It would be easy to become careless and apply a nickname where it doesn't belong; it is certainly worth stopping to ask if that might have happened here. It's certainly true that the original Panhandle Railroad was just a piece of the PRR-controlled line getting to the Ohio River across West Virginia. It's true that the Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis-St.Louis line (organized as the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and St. Louis around the time of the Civil War) was nicknamed the "Panhandle Route". And its' true that the first division on the Panhandle west of Pittsburgh was officially named the "Panhandle Division", possibly at least as far back as World War One. But when the PC&StL absorbed more companies in OH, IL, and IN, it became the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, CHICAGO, and St. Louis, and continued to be referred to as the Panhandle. Was this true in Chicago? Yes -- I've heard and read too many resources refer to "the Panhandle" line in Chicago to believe anything else. It seems clear that people all over the former PCC&StL continued to use the nickname Panhandle ever since, and into very recent times. Therefore, when we talk about Lines West and Chicagoland, we must talk about both the "Fort Wayne" and the "Panhandle" lines into and inside the Chicago metro area. Hope this is a satisfactory explanation of our usage of "the Panhandle". As always, I welcome input on things Pennsy, especially Lines West. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:47:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/2/98 10:38:13 PM Central Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << But when the PC&StL absorbed more companies in OH, IL, and IN, it became the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, CHICAGO, and St. Louis, and continued to be referred to as the Panhandle. Was this true in Chicago? Yes -- I've heard and read too many resources refer to "the Panhandle" line in Chicago to believe anything else. It seems clear that people all over the former PCC&StL continued to use the nickname Panhandle ever since, and into very recent times. >> The September 1982 Keystone article on the Chicago Terminal Division referred throughout to the "Panhandle" mainline and FWIW I have frequently seen it referred to it that way in other references. The passenger trains Rick referred to left the Fort Wayne Line at Colehour Junction just West of Colehour Yard and connected to the "Panhandle" line at Bernice, Illinois, via the former South Chicago and Southern Railroad Company (SC&S), passing through Hegewisch and Calumet Park, Illinois. I believe the Pennsy's SC&S line still exists in part on Conrail, but would have to check my Conrail maps for that (wherever they might be). I wonder if that is the trackage the "bottle" train (hot metal cars) uses in part. One variance from the passenger routing, at least until a few years after WWII, was The Southland which went to Ft. Wayne before heading South through Richmond, Indiana. Thanks to Rick for a good overall description of the "other" lines around Chicago. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:40:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Jerry, Kevin and all, Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you want me to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. And Jerry I hope you do not mean anything by the statement below. Greg Martin In a message dated 11/2/98 5:13:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Let's just say, he won't work in this town (PRR) any more! >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:40:14 -0500 Hello to all, Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 8:15 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 > > > On 11/2/98 5:45 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: > > >While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine > has. He states > >that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks > which the > >cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel > spacing to > >determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. > > A few weeks back on the list, maybe six, someone researched and found > that the trucks themselves were identical, from the same OEM. So, PA > trucks on a BP20 works. > > Miracle provides a chassis, so all you are mounting is the power trucks, > not the entire PA chassis. That takes care of the truck spacing. > > When discussing BP20's, please be very sure to specify Miracle Castings > (if that is what you are referring to) as there are also the apparently > much lower quality Sharks from Hobbytown (or whatever it was) in Boston. > I don't want to see MC get a bad rep for another's work! > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:20:55 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] cloth patches Hello all, Need to ask a small favor: does someone out there have a Pennsy keystone cloth logo patch they could spare? I promised a certain 5 year old boy a choo-choo hat for Xmas, and cloth patches can't be had for love nor money here in St. Loser. (This kid lives in Pittsburg, watches Conrail go by out his bedroom window and is well and truly gaa-gaa about trains, which ought to make the Lines Westerners day) Please let me know what it will cost and I will get out to you directly. Thank you! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:00:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Re:Chicago panhandle It is difficult to explain to those not familiar with Chicago. An easily obtained publication "Carstens Great Lakes West" and "Carstens Great Lakes East" clearly shows how the passenger and freight operations were interchangend between the two lines on the south side of Chicago. Freight trains from 59th St. ran east to the "Ft Wayne" line along 59th St. It is indicated as abandanded but is still mostly intact with track. The 59th St. yard has been recently rebuilt and reopened. The line from Colehour to the panhandle was ripped up except for a short segment through the Hegewisch area which is used by "bottle trains" on the IHB. The Amtrak trains using that section have been rerouted over the UP to a new interchange installed a few years ago Bob Leffingwell, Hegewisch, Il ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 03:13:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville Hey yuze gize, I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some great stuff coming from us at all sides. We are truly in the "glory days" of this hobby. I also attended the Prototype Modelers meet in Naperville and I will fill you all in on that. I saw some beautiful models on display, I will tell you who is out there doing what. I also picked up some photo's from Richard Burg and I saw some new parts and "toys" from guys who did not attend MRIA/RCHTA Show. I am also a member of the RPM (Railroad Prototype Modelers) steering committee and I will fill you in on what we are doing to encourage more accurate and realistic modeling. And guess what, I never saw one guy pick up a model or have/use a scale ruler or even count a set of rivets. Something to think of. Jim Six was planning on making it but with his work schedule and the SEMRA Convention coming up in a few weeks he was excused. Jim, Mike Bradley says hi, those guys all got in late Thursday I think. I stayed up doing slides until 2 in the morning every night but Saturday. Next year I think they will need more display tables for the models. Also I met some of the local Modelers from around the Chicago area through a great friend of mine, Mike Smeltzer, most of them deeply involved in the CB&Q (or as they refer to it -Q-shit) very, very good modelers. I will post them in 3 separate post so you can "reply to all" and keep them on topic. Greg Martin coming home with a big smile on my face! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:12:28 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/3/98 12:40 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and >say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to >hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be >problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well >Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have >committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you >want me >to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I >realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think >that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. I think this thread will die off momentarily. The only reason I started it on the list is because there were several (short of a dozen) who were already voicing complaints about LMP. I did want to get a warning out about their situation, not unlike what went on about Nova Tech some time back. At that time, many individuals voiced their thanks for the posts as they otherwise would have placed orders. The post to the list also seems to have accomplished something that otherwise was unattainable: It got LMP refocused (at least momentarily) on customer service and accounts payable. I have been notified that my funds are on their way via registered mail. Mike has been provided a UPS tracking number for his T1. Etc. I believe these two statements from Joe Zappa because if it were not true, why would he dig his hole deeper? I anticipate making only one more post to the list regarding this matter, unless something comes up. That post would be to say that I have received payment. I believe Mike will do likewise when he receives his T1. That would only be fair. Joe was/is a nice guy. He's just a victim of circumstance, which is unfortunate. I sympathize with his plight, thus provided him with lots of time and many opportunities to make it right. However, I (and others) should not be victimized in the process. Though he may have some bitterness about all of this, if he removes himself and looks at the situation from afar, I am sure that he will agree that this was not handled in the customer's best interest. Enough said. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:20:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/03/98 The "bottle trains" still operate daily through Hegewisch. Bob Leffingwell, Hegewisch ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:04:16 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:36:17 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey yuze gize, > I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in > the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers > meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to I wasn't there (wish I could have been)... > do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in > the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some but I did hear about some of the toys (these are the ones Pennsy fans might want): Atlas will next be doing the RS-1 in the Classic line (HO and N). Stewart C-628 is running behind but undec should ship by the end of the year. (which means if PRR comes out in February it will be a year late:-). Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) Intermountain's F unit shell is well underway, and is very nice, but the nose is not yet polished out nicely. The fan detail on the new Life-Like P2K GP7 is supposed to be much better than on previous units; less of a "delrin" appearance But I wasn't even there, so I should shut up and let Greg tell it.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:30:19 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > > > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is > >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. > > I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the > moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com iirc http://mc.cyklone.com -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Henrik Thomsen" Subject: [PRR] Monogahela division Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:05:56 +0100 Hi, just to say thank for the mails I'd recieved. I will off course still be interested, if someone should know a thing or two about the Monongahela division. Regards, Henrik Thomsen ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: Re: [PRR] Civility Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 05:09:06 PST I am forwarding this to the group at the request of Joe Zappa. Let's hope this puts and end to all of this. Kevin Tully, Liberty Model Productions PRR- Talk list members, Whatever side of the fence you're on, I'm sorry that you had to be forced to be in on it all. I sincerely hope that this will be the last post regarding any of this. Since I have not been on the list for several weeks, I did not know all of the petty BS being spread about, and obviously could not reply. I will tell you that Jerry has been paid ( payment sent via registered mail ), but probably has not received it yet. I have been totally swamped, and am keeping on, but Liberty Model Productions has indeed put most all projects on the back burner for the moment. I cannot say at this time what the future holds for certain, but I will not go down easy ! It is likely that you will see several new models, but not until next year sometime. Depending on the outcome of things, you may see nothing at all. For Jerry, We do not 'Hawk' kits, we make them. You make nothing, but you do "Hawk" other peoples products. Additionally, any of my dealings in any other markets, is nobody's business but mine and the folks involved. Keep your nose out. I thank those of you who have offered words of encouragement, as they do help ! Now for the sake of everyone, if there is anything further to be 'discussed' please 'e' me DIRECTLY. Thanks you all, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 09:44:06 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] cloth patches Howdy Mr Boyd: I need to go to the Strasburg area on Wednesday for some work stuff. Just a short trip to hit the Train Store at Strasburg - they have just about any railroad patch ever made. Or you could call Schrader's at 1800.842.4828 and see if they have patches, I know they have hats and shirts - don't know if they still carry patches. Anyway if I can be of any service let me know. cos Robert A. Boyd wrote: > Hello all, > > Need to ask a small favor: does someone out there have a Pennsy keystone > cloth logo patch they could spare? I promised a certain 5 year old boy a > choo-choo hat for Xmas, and cloth patches can't be had for love nor money > here in St. Loser. (This kid lives in Pittsburg, watches Conrail go by > out his bedroom window and is well and truly gaa-gaa about trains, which > ought to make the Lines Westerners day) > > Please let me know what it will cost and I will get out to you directly. > > Thank you! > > Bob > > Robert A. Boyd > > ======== > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > > "The Limited" On Line > http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > ======== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20's, Liberty Models, etc. Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:26:07 -0500 Hi Everybody! I've noticed some confusion about the drive train on our BP-20 model, so here's the dirt on it. The model we sell comes with a RESIN chassis / fuel tank combination, that is designed to fit Athearn PA power trucks and Athearn motor. Our chassis has the accurate wheelbase for the Shark model (unlike the PA, which is much shorter). We don't supply the Athearn trucks or motor, as it makes little sense for a Canadian company to import U.S. goods, only to re-export them right back to the U.S., especially when our dollar is worth about as much as Monopoly money. We provide a couple of parts to extend the front drive shaft far enough to reach the front truck (the PA driveshaft is too short for the distance to the front truck). The kit is unassembled and unpainted, but needs very little finishing work compared to most craftsman kits. We've tried to obtain the highest possible surface detail and quality, and I think Jerry will agree that the shell is one of the better resin kits out there in that regard. We also have a B-unit available. If anyone has any questions, they can either ask Jerry, check out our web site, ( http://mc.cyklone.com ) or call us at (519)757-0625, or e-mail us at miracle-castings@on.aibn.com As for the Liberty Models situation, I realize that promises have not been kept, and tensions are high at the moment. Hopefully a solution can be found to this unpleasantness, for everybody's sake. HOWEVER, I do have one request of the people involved. On several occasions, Miracle Castings has been mentioned as a possible producer of kits that have been submitted to Liberty Models as masters, but which have not yet been produced. I understand the concern of the people who produced these masters, that their hard work not be wasted, and that people have access to these models. But I would like to respectfully ask that we be left out of the debate on this topic. Once the dust has settled, if someone wants us to produce a model for them, obviously we would be more than happy to talk to them about it, but we don't wish to be embroiled in the middle of a dispute over ownership or breach of contract. We have nothing to do with this situation, and would be happy to keep it that way. As for the Hobbytown / Trainstuff Mfg., I'm very familiar with Hal Kirschner of Hobbytown (he's a nice guy, and a good business man), but I've never heard of Trainstuff Mfg., and have never seen the quality of their products. We don't intend to change anything about the way we are conducting our business in reaction to this news (not at this point, at least). We would, however, suggest that people try to get a look at actual product before making a decision about which unit to buy, or at least talk to a trusted person who HAS seen the products. We're in this for the long haul, and personally I've seen too many resin producers come and go to get too worked up about any particular one. If their product is dynamite, well then I guess we'll have to react in some way! The way I feel about it, there's lots of products that need to be done, and competition is good for the hobby! Regards, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:08:55 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) the Cleveland area has a few auto plants that the Pennsy served. Living in Wisconsin I had that rumor flying around last year and now with AccuRail making the Auto Racks and Walthers making the Auto Plant . It is looking good for my future model railroad layout. Derrick J Brashear on 11/03/98 07:36:17 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey yuze gize, > I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in > the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers > meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to I wasn't there (wish I could have been)... > do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in > the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some but I did hear about some of the toys (these are the ones Pennsy fans might want): Atlas will next be doing the RS-1 in the Classic line (HO and N). Stewart C-628 is running behind but undec should ship by the end of the year. (which means if PRR comes out in February it will be a year late:-). Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) Intermountain's F unit shell is well underway, and is very nice, but the nose is not yet polished out nicely. The fan detail on the new Life-Like P2K GP7 is supposed to be much better than on previous units; less of a "delrin" appearance But I wasn't even there, so I should shut up and let Greg tell it.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:19:16 -0500 From: Bob Poortinga Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago > I believe the Pennsy's SC&S line still exists in part on Conrail, but would > have to check my Conrail maps for that (wherever they might be). I wonder if > that is the trackage the "bottle" train (hot metal cars) uses in part. (In my best Ed McMahon voice) You are correct, sir! The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports molten iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through Hegewisch Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over to the IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the original Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to Interlake Steel. The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. This is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:16:34 -0500 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: Re: [PRR] ChicagoHobby Show Loco's (long) TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Gize, > Where to start. We, My brother Ed, my close friend Mike Smeltzer and I > arrived at the Rosemont Hobby show as a guest to Randy Lee at Model > Railroading. We hit the floor running and here's what we found. SNIPAGE occurred here > PS. Tomorrow I will start a thread on Passenger cars and freight cars from > the show and my results of putting a Micrometer to the Bachmann 10-2-1 sleep, > you will be pleasantly surprised. Then let's talk about the Prototype > Modelers meet. Any news on the N-Scale front? -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:39:08 EST Subject: [PRR] ChicagoHobby Show Loco's (long) Gize, Where to start. We, My brother Ed, my close friend Mike Smeltzer and I arrived at the Rosemont Hobby show as a guest to Randy Lee at Model Railroading. We hit the floor running and here's what we found. Athearn: We saw the new SD-70 MAC and the detail is some of the best tooling they have done to date. The stanchions will be produced in a form of Delrin. There are draw backs with this type of plastic because it has such a low adhesion for paint. The upside is that because of the type of plastic it can be forced into a mould at higher pressure and allows it to be cast finer. Details are finer as a result. We took a look at the Athearn/Lubeliner F-unit shells up close. They appear to be nearly complete with only work left to be done seemed to be the pilot. They are beautiful but trying to do a make "one shell does all" has it's compromises. One I was made aware of was the exposed truss webbing across from the dynamics is different from the F-3 to the F-7. It has is upside in that the detail is so fine you will want to run it without paint. It is IMHO the most detailed locomotive I have seen in HO scale yet, including brass. Atlas: The only locomotive I saw on display that was "new" (re-release) was the RS-1. A good locomotive. Nuff said. Bachmann: I got a close up look of the Consolidation for the first time at the show. I was amazed at how well the darn thing ran and at the beautiful tooling. To my surprise I found that they are tooling and near completion of a Mountain (4-8-2). The frame and most of the boiler parts are done. It will sport the same drive system as the Consolidation. I guess this is an insight to things to come. As a matter of fact they will retool the K-4 in the future. I wonder what the brass guys are going to do? "the times they are a changin'..." Life Like: I saw the new GP-7 and it was a great effort. I cannot say if it was their best effort ... perhaps their best effort yet. Just discussing the locomotive with Randy Lee at diner brought up a question ... which type of tread was used on the walkway? Or was there? They had their F-3 onhand and what can I say I liked it and bought it 2 weeks ago. They were very tight mouthed at the show itself and did not have a sample of the GP-30 onhand or want to talk about it. However; Larry Grub showed up at the display room in Naperville sporting a sample of the GP-30 and as he walked past the table that Mark Kerlick, my brother Ed and I shared he saw Mark's new brass FM CFA/B -16-44 I made a comment on how beautiful they were and he said "we're going to do them". So something to look forward too. Nothing was said about their 0-8-0 or 2-8-2. I guess we will just have to wait and see. When Mark Kerlick ask about an SD-35 he got a flat NO. This company has had a tremendous run and are rolling the industry forward. What a success story. Kato: Kato had samples of their new RS-2 and RSC-2's. They are very nice locomotives and close examination showed they corrected the cab roof contour and the fireman's window corner post. This has been a problem with the Atlas RS-3 that has not been corrected to date. Sorry, no bad mouthing a competitor. Mike Smeltzer and I ask the rep straight up if they planned more paint scheme like Boston and Maine in one of the 3 paint schemes or New Haven they said that no paint schemes have been ruled out. Very diplomatic. We need to let them know that there is a demand for them to take the first step. EMAIL THEM! Intermountain: Well, we saw the samples of the test shots of the F-7 shell. We saw the fist sample at DesPlaines Hobbies. Then at the show we saw an additional progressive test shots. You could actually tell that each progressive test had some corrections made to the dies ... interesting! Talking with Frank he told us that the first shells should hit the market around but likely right after Christmas, this year . They will be made available as a shell only that you can apply to whichever power frame you wish, Proto-Power, Life Like, Stewart, Athearn, Overland, Hobbytown, or Bachmann. They said the frame is being engineered now and they are looking at all power frames that are available to date and then will pick their spot. Look for the complete frame and shell to be offered around May or June. I included all the frames that came to mind just to show you how many offerings have made their way into the market. They will tool a seperate shell for the F-3, F-2, and F-9 as there are differences in the bodies. The detail was not as tight as the Lubeliner shell but I am not so sure that I need to see the slots in the batten screws, great up very close but at 12 inches away will it be noticeable under paint? Stewart: Steve showed up with his line of F-units from FT's to F-9's and said he would have them back on the market soon. How soon he would not say. I think that he has learned what happens when he makes personal goals public. He also brought running samples of his ALCo C-628's. They are incredible! Then explained that he has left little to chance for the hobby shop owner. Here's the deal you pick shell that has either one sand filler or two sand fillers. The rest of the options are in the kit, both cabs for horizontal or vertical lights and a snow plow. The tooling is incredible! I understood him to say that the Undecs are ready to ship, Mike Smeltzer said he did not pick up on that. They also brought an AS-6-16 and he explained that the new drive will be made in house and engineered like the ALCo C-628. Again no word on how soon, Steve, I wouldn't either and I for one am willing to wait and in the meantime I will run my Athearn/Stewart drive units. Well, what have I forgot? Fire away gize! I will answer what I can. We need to talk this thread through. I could think of another engine that I would have like to see offered by someone would be the FM ERIE Builts. If you are a Pennsy fan remember there were more of these than passenger Sharks and PA/B's combined. Greg Martin PS. Tomorrow I will start a thread on Passenger cars and freight cars from the show and my results of putting a Micrometer to the Bachmann 10-2-1 sleep, you will be pleasantly surprised. Then let's talk about the Prototype Modelers meet. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 02:13:06 -0500 Derrick, Thank you for providing the Miracle address site. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Derrick J > Brashear > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 8:30 AM > To: PRR - Talk Group > Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 > > > On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > > > On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > > > > > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is > it)? If not, is > > >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you > in advance. > > > > I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the > > moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > iirc http://mc.cyklone.com > > -D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:27:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Unitl now I have nothing to say about Joe Zappa and customer service. Jerry's comments make sense to me and may well have had some impact on the fact that my T-1 may be en route back to R.I. For that reason, I am glad he said what he said. I must stress that Joe has dealt with me in a fair fashion and seems to be getting his business back on its feet and I wish for its success. Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Date sent: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:12:28 -0500 From: Jerry To: "PRR-Talk" > On 11/3/98 12:40 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > > > Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and > >say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to > >hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be > >problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well > >Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have > >committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you > >want me > >to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I > >realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think > >that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. > > I think this thread will die off momentarily. The only reason I started > it on the list is because there were several (short of a dozen) who were > already voicing complaints about LMP. I did want to get a warning out > about their situation, not unlike what went on about Nova Tech some time > back. At that time, many individuals voiced their thanks for the posts as > they otherwise would have placed orders. > > The post to the list also seems to have accomplished something that > otherwise was unattainable: It got LMP refocused (at least momentarily) > on customer service and accounts payable. I have been notified that my > funds are on their way via registered mail. Mike has been provided a UPS > tracking number for his T1. Etc. I believe these two statements from Joe > Zappa because if it were not true, why would he dig his hole deeper? > > I anticipate making only one more post to the list regarding this matter, > unless something comes up. That post would be to say that I have received > payment. I believe Mike will do likewise when he receives his T1. That > would only be fair. > > Joe was/is a nice guy. He's just a victim of circumstance, which is > unfortunate. I sympathize with his plight, thus provided him with lots of > time and many opportunities to make it right. However, I (and others) > should not be victimized in the process. Though he may have some > bitterness about all of this, if he removes himself and looks at the > situation from afar, I am sure that he will agree that this was not > handled in the customer's best interest. > > Enough said. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Managing Editor, De Imperatoribus Romanis Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:45:14 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] Bel Del ?s (K-6 class???) I just received a copy of Down Along the Old Bel-Del by Warren Lee through interlibrary loan. It is very interesting, and is offering insights I was never aware of. It's like taking a trip back home and through time, without the 12 hour drive from Indiana. In the Epilogue, he mentions E-6 atlantics and K-6 pacifics? Was there a K-6 class? I know of the K-2, K-3, and some of the experimental double digit K-xx class engines. Might these have run along the branch? (One double digit K-xx class pacific looks exactly like the B&O class P-3 pacific, from Baldwin, 1913... I can't remember the class number) A K-4 is shown to be at Trenton in 1959. What piece of railroad would it have been running on at this time? (it looked to be fired up) The Bel-Del dieselized in 1955. Also, L-1s ran on the branch hauling coal. That was one question I wanted to know about. Who was the person who helped colloborate on the book that lived in Titusville, NJ? Was it George M. Hart? The name rings a bell, and there are many photos credited to him in the book. Thanks for the help, DOUG ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:08:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/3/98 10:59:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobp@tsc.com writes: > The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports > molten > iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through > Hegewisch > Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over to > the > IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the > original > Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to Interlake > Steel. > > The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and > west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. > > It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the > routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. > This > is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle > unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. > > -- > Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > Bloomington, Indiana USA > Thanks, Bob, for this info. I used to go to Burnham Crossing, where the SC&S crosses a bundle of rail lines (South Shore, NKP?, Chicago & Western Indiana?) just northwest of State Line Tower. For some reason I never caught the bottle train, but it was a great show otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:17:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bel Del ?s (K-6 class???) ***Hi, Doug and all - Glad you got Lee's book on the Bel-Del....just remeber, he is not a true railraod historian, as we know of them..... His RR knowledge was gleaned from other sources, so do not take anything literally. Treat it as a pleasant work of remeberances, not always accurate, but interesting. I will have a KEYSTONE article on the Bel-Del soon......the first PRR Branch Line I worked on.......Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Update on Liberty Date: Wed, 4 Nov 98 16:56:35 -0500 From: Jerry Just wanted to pass along that I received full payment today from Liberty Model Productions. Hopefully others will recieve the satisfaction that they were promised from earlier in the week. It's a shame that it took a "concurrent" public barage to get things going, but hopefully this "refocusing" will get LMP back on track with their future endeavors. Thanks for coming through, Joe. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Info Date: Wed, 4 Nov 98 19:15:26 -0500 From: Jerry The "Milepost", the newsletter of the Friends of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, arrived today. It has many answers to questions posed on this list over the past year or so. The article was written as of 1948. 1) It has a photo of the PRR freight house next to the coach yards south of the passenger station. It features a B6sb switching and was taken in 1920. The Harrisburg Gas Company clearly has those real large gas tanks....not a small facility as I had thought; 2) A photo of the front facade of the Reading Railroad station. It opened in 1904 and was razed in 1956. Frontage of 150' and depth of 83'; 3) Most passenger power west of Harrisburg was K4 and T1; 4) The daily interchange jaunt between the PRR's Enola Yard and the Reading's Rutherford Yard was typically powered by an L1s; 5) A-B-B-A sets of F3's seen at Enola; strings of M1's with 110P75 tenders on storage tracks at Enola; 6) Turntable at passenger facility was longest on the line, at 125', and built specifically to handle the 123'9-1/4" wheelbase of the S1 #6100 which never actually made it to the city. Indicates that the "standard" turntable on the system was 110'. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:29:27 EST Subject: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars Hey Yuze Gize, Let talk about the new Freight cars we saw at the MRIA show. Athearn: Same old molds just new "collectors" paints :^0 Ho Hum! ACCURAIL: We talked to Dennis at length and he showed us his up coming doubled deck autorack circa 1968, but with a little swapin' and jivin' you can come up with an early 60's autorack too. He had samples of the entire line and the newly released retool ex-FrontRange/McKeen-Skylim 50' semi modern exterior post boxcar. It comes in a 10' plug door and sliding door option. Nice work for the market Denis is trying to reach. I like his products and attitude about the hobby and modelers. He warned me not to take my ACCURAIL cars to the Prototype Modelers Display for fear I may be arrested by the FreightCar Police, I did and I was not and BTW I got quite a few compliments on them. I had ask him about the tooling for the Front Range 40' boxcar that had 4/4 dreadnaught ends that had the ladders tooled on the car he said that they went to Red Caboose, but they claimed they did not have them. ;^( ??? I would love to see this kit retooled with separate ladders and details. Bachmann: Nothing new but I did have an opportunity to put a Micrometer to the 10-2-1 at my friend Mike Smeltzer's basement before flying out on Sunday. What I found was, base on the RIVEROSSI cars (given they are correct), the windows that Tom Madden of the PCL had mention that they appeared too big are slightly shorter, about 1 scale inch, and 15 thousandths of an inch wider than the RIVEROSSI car. Andy Harmon had posted what RR's he felt that the car covered in its window arrangement, to that I will add at least one Pennsy car. Red Caboose: They had their samples ready of the former Front Range 40' box car that they had invested some retooling in. Someone said that the ends were retooled if they were they made them look the same to me. The side were definitely retooled and the doors and ladders were all new tooling as well as the grabs and the tack boards. They looked very clean! I can't wait to get my hands on them. They are going to be offered in 6' and 8' doors and later 7' doors. They also exhibited a draft for the tooling of the ART reefer that is on the drawing table. Good stuff! But still looking for the 4/4 dreadnaught end tooling? Life Like: The only cars Life Like had at the show was the P1K PC/WP National Steel Car Co. car produced as the PC X-72 and X-72A car. They were in the road specific paint for WP and PC but I can see no reason for not painting the car in CR and CNA as these road had them too. Food for thought. Later at the Naperville Larry Grub was sporting the newest car for the Proto 2000 series which will be the ARR 50 ton 52'6'' flat car. Excellent detail they even tooled the hole for the spikes in the side stake pockets. Off the top of my head this car is good for UP, NKP, ERIE, ACL, D&RGW, C&O and more. I only wished it was the 70 ton car, there was far more examples. Branchline: They were displaying samples of their soon to be released 50' 8' single door boxcar. They had some of the tooling for the 40' car onhand also. I had a conversation with Bill Schneider and met the die cutter working on the passenger cars. The first to be released will be the 12-1 in plan 2410 and then the 10-1-2 at some time in the future. He thanked me for the use of the 8X10 B&W heavyweight photo's I had sent him to use as reference, my pleasure Bill if you are out there. We should see some beautiful stuff from him in the future. Challenger: They had samples of their PRR Congo cars and Senator cars. Nice, expensive but very, very nice. Coach Yard; I saw their Santa FE cars and again nice, spendy, but very very nice. Walthers: Nuttin' new that I saw. Con-Cor: They may have had something new but I did not stop in as I am not in their market. Bethlehem Car Works: The one thing that stands out the most is a 40' PRR Trailer in cast resin! Can't wait! Well, what did I miss, sure I forgot something. Greg Martin PS Tomorrow I will have a commentary on Naperville, f you have never been plan too. I only hope that Martin Loftin is ready to expand, this show is a must and next year Jim Six will make it if I have to have him kidnapped! Lots of folks were looking forward to seeing him, although I understand with his work schedule and the SEMRA Convention he is up to his.... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:32:36 EST Subject: [PRR] modern news... ***CSX announce that their "new" double track, reversible traffic line between Greenwich, OH and Chicago is open and in service as of today. ( Nice to see some new construction versus destruction....) The line represents a $220 million investment for the 270 mile route. Including 100 route miles of new track....250 miles upgraded...Rev. traffic, crossovers, and some new interchange links to other RRs. School programs and operation lifesaver specials to be roaming the area to re- acquaint the local folks about what rail traffic used to be ( busy ) before the line's traffic is to be significantly increased.....allowing for an adjustment period..... = CSX News release.. In udder noooze....USX announced a 70% curtailment of production at the Fairless Works ( near former PRR Morrisville yard, PA )....claimed that illegal foreign steel dumping / imports was affecting their sales... It wasn't that long ago ( decades...?) that I could remember Mo'ville CHOKED with traffic for Fairless, with the Reading line busy, also.........bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 12:50:54 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 5 Nov, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Nothing new but I did have an opportunity to put a Micrometer to the > 10-2-1 at my friend Mike Smeltzer's basement before flying out on Sunday. > What I found was, base on the RIVEROSSI cars (given they are correct), the > windows that Tom Madden of the PCL had mention that they appeared too big are > slightly shorter, about 1 scale inch, and 15 thousandths of an inch wider than > the RIVEROSSI car. If the N Rivarossi models are scaled down directly from the HO, the area above the windows is about half as tall as it should be. I've been investigating adding the postwar gold stripes to some of my PRR Rivarossi heavyweights, and the PENNSYLVANIA takes up the entire height above the windows, leaving no room for a properly aligned stripe. *sigh* Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:17:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE Folks, I was just looking through the latest catalog sheets from Bethlehem Car Works, and I was reminded to find out if anyone can tell me what the Pennsy "B62" car is. It's obviously a baggage car, but the 62 is throwing me off. B60, B70 or B74 is fine, but a B62? Anyone that can fill me in? Thanks, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Reading-Talk List Date: Thu, 5 Nov 98 17:33:18 -0500 From: Jerry If anyone cares, my server is now serving a Reading Railroad list, "Reading-Talk". For more info, see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/readingtalk.html Other than the list, I will not be getting into Reading stuff. This serves a need, but my emphasis will remain "PRR Forever"! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:19:21 -0500 Barry, The PRR B62 baggage express cars were ex-Reading cars. Quoting from the instruction sheet in my kit: Car #7940 & #7941 are ex-Reading class Bau Car # 7942 was ex-Reading class MBr Car #7943 was ex-Reading class MBe Car #7944-7953 are ex-Reading class Bau There is a photograph of a PRR B62 in Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Volume 2 at the bottom of page 31. The caption says the PRR acquired 14 of these cars from the Reading in May, 1964. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com ; pcl@railnet.nshore.org Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 7:32 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE >Folks, >I was just looking through the latest catalog sheets from Bethlehem Car Works, >and I was reminded to find out if anyone can tell me what the Pennsy "B62" car >is. It's obviously a baggage car, but the 62 is throwing me off. B60, B70 or >B74 is fine, but a B62? Anyone that can fill me in? Thanks, >Barry Peltier > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 11:27:07 -0500 Greg, You said (in part): " Bachmann: . . . Andy Harmon had posted what RR's he felt that the car covered in its window arrangement, to that I will add at least one Pennsy car." I don't know if you have your "Andys" confused or if Andy Harmon also wrote a posting about the prototypes for the Bachmann Pullman which I did not see. I wrote one some time ago in which I identified some 20+ instances of the car. Most were C&O. I could not find a PRR instance. What is the car you discovered? BTW I painted my Bachmann 10-2-1 for SOUTHERN ("Thomas Ruffin") as this car was in thru service on the Birmingham Special as the drop car from NY Penn Station to Knoxville TN, and therefore appeared on PRR tracks. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:23:42 -0600 Anyone know just how long the metal will stay molten in a "bottle car"? This would seem to be the limiting factor on a route for a "bottle train". Bill Laird > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Poortinga [SMTP:bobp@tsc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 9:19 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago > > The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports > molten > iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through > Hegewisch > Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over > to the > IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the > original > Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to > Interlake > Steel. > > The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and > west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. > > It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the > routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. > This > is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle > unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. > > -- > Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > Bloomington, Indiana USA > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LCL Shipping (Freight House vs. REA) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 15:58:52 -0500 From: Jerry Can anyone provide a somewhat brief dissertation on LCL (less than car load) shipping on the PRR. For instance: At Harrisburg there was both the REA station & a very large freight station. What went where? Was all REA traffic transported by passenger trains? Were the cars destined for the freight station transferred by freight trains? And were the latter of the "Merchandise Service" variety, as an example? My thought is that REA was probably very small items, directed towards the consumer. Whereas the freight station was probably more sizable items, typically business customers, who did not have enough to warrant a full car, or who were not rail-served directly. Is this train of thought somewhat correct? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:29:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) In a message dated 98-11-06 11:11:04 EST, you write: > Anyone know just how long the metal will stay molten in a "bottle > car"? This would seem to be the limiting factor on a route for a "bottle > train". You know, I move hot metal cars around several times a week, watch them pour every morning etc. but never wondered about the length of time the iron will stay molten. I have quite a bit of info. regarding the mixer type cars, as they are correctly called, so I'll have to look it up. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:48:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Shipping (Freight House vs. REA) Jerry, Only have time for a short reply, but there are some really good articles on this subject which I hope I can list out a bit later.But it sounds like you're on the right track as far as shipments, at least to a degree. REA was more or less a direct competitor to the post office and was something of a forerunner to UPS and etc. Both business and privite parties used their services. Those green REA trucks used to be as common as UPS is today, making deliveries and pick ups. Pennsy used to run trains dedicated entirely to REA, though most passenger trains carried express in their 'baggage' cars. LCL was largely business-related, but it was by no means unusual for a citizen to make a shipment this way. Up here in the Twin Cities the NP and GN continued LCL service long after most roads gave it up because the highway systems were so bad in the Dakotas and Montana. The big difference with REA was the lower rates and much slower service. But a farmer could ship a tractor part, say, to Minneapolis Moline for an exchange if it was winter and he was in no big hurry for the new part. If it took three days each way via freight rather than 1 day via REA. it was no big deal. But I gotta run and I'm sure this subject will be a good one. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:02:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [OPSIG] Re: adding the caboose In a message dated 11/6/98 4:56:49 PM Central Standard Time, dgeiger@oneimage.com writes: << Got a question for all you operator types: It's always been my understanding that a cut of cars should never be backed into a caboose whenever possible. Stated another way, the caboose was usually tacked onto the rear of the train. Assume there was no one in the caboose during the process. Was this prototype, or just my dumb thinking? I've admonished many a yardmaster for putting the caboose out on the departure track and then pushing the whole train down onto that lonely caboose. Just interested. >> I had the same impression you did, Doug,but haven't heard this mentioned in some time and I don't seem to meet many people in model railroading who make a big deal about this detail of operation (or did I imagine the same understanding you did?). I am also interested in the opinions and practices of the people on the list. It is a practice I try and follow myself. I have been trying to get the guys at the club to operate switchers at both ends of our yard for this and other reasons. Actually, the Pennsy made it a little more complicated to model . At Enola (and some other locations, I believe) , the cabin track was on a grade and the cabin was "rolled downgrade onto the end of the train, sans benefit of switcher. Also the cabin was switched off by flying switches in some cases, also difficult to model. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:20:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars In noting that Branchline plans to do an 8-2-1, I am a little confused. The Southland lists an 8-2-1 in its consist in the 1945-7 consists. But the Keystone in 1982 says that some of the classic 8 section buffet lounge cars (with solariium) were assigned to the Southland. Since the Southland also listed a 10 section lounge observation in the Mount series in its consist, I have a question: What the heck did the Southland include (and when) in its consist among four configurations: a. 8-2-1 b. 8 section lounge solarium c. 10 section lounge observation d. 10 section lounge solarium (later, enclosed version of the Mount series). Thanks in advance for any input from this astute list. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:56:17 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Hi Chris, All, Pic matches pic of PRR "Clearance Car" #497125 in Sweetland and Yanosey's "Color Guide". These were used to determine clearances on various routes by use of the "fingers" attached to the car which could be extended outward. Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:48:21 -0500 (EST) From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg-York area For the interested (that's you, Jerry!), train CE-2 http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ce2_1960.html specifically lists many Harrisburg-area spots for which it carries local traffic from the west. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:42:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: adding the caboose = the WHAT.!? we didn't have no In a message dated 98-11-06 21:14:30 EST, you write: << the people on the list. It is a practice I try and follow myself. I have been trying to get the guys at the club to operate switchers at both ends of our yard for this and other reasons. Actually, the Pennsy made it a little more complicated to model . At Enola (and some other locations, I believe) , the cabin track was on a grade and the cabin was "rolled downgrade onto the end of the train, sans benefit of switcher. Also the cabin was switched off by flying switches in some cases, also difficult to model. Bob Zoeller >> ***thanks, Bob....that thing at Enola was appropriately called the Pimple (Track), at least the one on the east end of the yard...since it looked like a pimple sticking up op on an otherwise flat landscape. I gotta check for the west end nickname, if different.....I think it was the same. The recently discussed pool CABIN CARS made this possible, as opposed to drilling out the previously assigned cabins....I.E., " Joe's Cabin " for his train. Handbrake released, and roll down the ramp, line switch and onto yer train. The Meadows yard was downgrade ewd, so unable to do this, needed drill to tack on, but more likely drill tacked cabin car onto made up train, power coupled on, air test and go. So yer drill could make up the train, and then run down to the hind end and tack cabin on before departure, one drill could do all make-up moves, or two. I have many vivid memories of flying the cabin into the Meadows cabin track. Had to cut off on the fly, butt advantage was the descending grade. So you could almost roll to a stop to throw the switch, then release brake and roll in, close switch, and keep going. Poetry to watch experienced men perform this maneuver..!!! ......and totally embarrassing if you rolled past the switch without throwing in time..!!! Now the yardie had to pull a drill off work to correct your error...ooopppss..!!! Butt that was still preferable to splitting the switch..!!!!!!...Thx fer memory jog..Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:35:09 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: [PRR] What is it? Greetings to the Group, An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/prr8278n.jpg -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] shock jocks Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:55:27 -0500 There is now a discussion list for all us "shock-jocks", this list isnt just for PRR electric fans, also: NH, ICRR, NYC,South Shore,LIRR,PC, CR, etc...... Anyone want to join?? www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/shock-jocks -Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:55:28 -0500 The car is a clearance car, for checking the tunnels along the port road, and other places. It was kept in Baltimore for awhile, beside the old round house. There is also a shot of it on the NCR at the tunnel, in the early 50's. Check page 39 of "The cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" Wayner Publications ( mine was from 1988?) Bill ---------- > From: Chris Brandt > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] What is it? > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:35 PM > > Greetings to the Group, > > An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was > taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in > this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. > > http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/prr8278n.jpg > > -- > Chris Brandt > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:55:28 -0500 The car is a clearance car, for checking the tunnels along the port road, and other places. It was kept in Baltimore for awhile, beside the old round house. There is also a shot of it on the NCR at the tunnel, in the early 50's. Check page 39 of "The cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" Wayner Publications ( mine was from 1988?) Bill ---------- > From: Chris Brandt > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] What is it? > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:35 PM > > Greetings to the Group, > > An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was > taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in > this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. > > http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/prr8278n.jpg > > -- > Chris Brandt > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20's, Liberty Models, etc. Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:50:14 -0500 Hello Pat, Met up with Derrick Brashear today in Youngstown, Pa. Which is south-east of Pittsburgh on the old PRR line. I saw your casting of the BP-20, and I will state that is great. I will be placing an order sometime before Christmas for an A/B set. Guys this relay did look great. And is in no way what I saw at the train show in Timonium, MD ! ( Now can you make it except the Hobbytown mech. ?) wishful thought ! And thanks to Derrick for meeting me in Youngwood today, with that kit. Bill Knepper ( boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: Miracle Castings Inc. > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20's, Liberty Models, etc. > Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 11:26 AM > > Hi Everybody! I've noticed some confusion about the drive train on our > BP-20 model, so here's the dirt on it. The model we sell comes with a RESIN > chassis / fuel tank combination, that is designed to fit Athearn PA power > trucks and Athearn motor. Our chassis has the accurate wheelbase for the > Shark model (unlike the PA, which is much shorter). We don't supply the > Athearn trucks or motor, as it makes little sense for a Canadian company to > import U.S. goods, only to re-export them right back to the U.S., especially > when our dollar is worth about as much as Monopoly money. We provide a > couple of parts to extend the front drive shaft far enough to reach the > front truck (the PA driveshaft is too short for the distance to the front > truck). The kit is unassembled and unpainted, but needs very little > finishing work compared to most craftsman kits. We've tried to obtain the > highest possible surface detail and quality, and I think Jerry will agree > that the shell is one of the better resin kits out there in that regard. We > also have a B-unit available. If anyone has any questions, they can either > ask Jerry, check out our web site, ( http://mc.cyklone.com ) or call us at > (519)757-0625, or e-mail us at miracle-castings@on.aibn.com > > As for the Liberty Models situation, I realize that promises have not been > kept, and tensions are high at the moment. Hopefully a solution can be > found to this unpleasantness, for everybody's sake. HOWEVER, I do have one > request of the people involved. On several occasions, Miracle Castings has > been mentioned as a possible producer of kits that have been submitted to > Liberty Models as masters, but which have not yet been produced. I > understand the concern of the people who produced these masters, that their > hard work not be wasted, and that people have access to these models. But I > would like to respectfully ask that we be left out of the debate on this > topic. Once the dust has settled, if someone wants us to produce a model > for them, obviously we would be more than happy to talk to them about it, > but we don't wish to be embroiled in the middle of a dispute over ownership > or breach of contract. We have nothing to do with this situation, and would > be happy to keep it that way. > > As for the Hobbytown / Trainstuff Mfg., I'm very familiar with Hal Kirschner > of Hobbytown (he's a nice guy, and a good business man), but I've never > heard of Trainstuff Mfg., and have never seen the quality of their products. > We don't intend to change anything about the way we are conducting our > business in reaction to this news (not at this point, at least). We would, > however, suggest that people try to get a look at actual product before > making a decision about which unit to buy, or at least talk to a trusted > person who HAS seen the products. We're in this for the long haul, and > personally I've seen too many resin producers come and go to get too worked > up about any particular one. If their product is dynamite, well then I > guess we'll have to react in some way! The way I feel about it, there's lots > of products that need to be done, and competition is good for the hobby! > Regards, > > Pat Lawless > Miracle Castings > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:56:17 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Hi Chris, All, Pic matches pic of PRR "Clearance Car" #497125 in Sweetland and Yanosey's "Color Guide". These were used to determine clearances on various routes by use of the "fingers" attached to the car which could be extended outward. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 22:03:26 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] adding the cabin Hi Doug, Bob, All, I agree with you on tacking on the cabins using a switcher instead of backing the train onto it. Two things make this difficult. First, like you guys, I can't convince the rest of the group to follow this practice; they say it takes too much time. Duh? Railroading took time in those days. If we ran our railroads eliminating all the "time-consuming" operations we would eventually end up with the circle around the Christmas tree. Second, and more important from a modeling persective: Our yards, like most model yards, are single-ended due to space constraints. This makes it impossible to "tack on" the cabin without pulling the train out onto the main and stopping it to add the cabin. One yard does have a run-a-round to the back of the ladder and the cabin track and when I worked that yard I would use the goat to add the cabin. The third yard, in the planning stages, will be designed to allow ops from both ends, at least on the arrival and departure tracks, as proto-operations are very important to me. I've already bid in as YM at this yard and it will keep me happy. I don't harp on the guys; just try to show them by example. Now if I can just get them to observe the rulebook re: overweight trains, blocking empties at the rear, loco TE ratings, etc... Later, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:32:10 EST Subject: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose Folks, Seems there's a number of ways to add the way car to a freight, but the preferred method is tacking the caboose to the train. Railroads have never been fond of wasting money, and moving a whole train costs a lot more than moving one car. At least in originating yards, this would be the preferred approach. Of course there's about a million variables when the train hits the road (not counting rr's like the B&O that used two cabooses on way freights). But a good example would be the AT&SF operation one of the fellas is doing at the San Bernidino (?) division point, where trains switch cabooses and crews. There was a thread on assigned cabooses a while back, it seems. I'd make a sizable bet old John Santa Fe wasn't pushing trains onto their new cabooses and pulling whole trains off the old one. As I mentioned once before, figuring in costs on a prototype basis would put a whole new light on our operations. Barry Peltier St. Paul (home of Jesse the Body Ventura), MN ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 09:29:33 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains Just a little bit of lore about hot metal trains, a railroad civil engineer I know once remarked that when those things derail and the hot metal spills, the rails . . . melt! John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:14:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [OPSIG] Re: adding the caboose In fact, there was a trestle-like thing with a very noticable slope to it. Kind of looked like a string of cabin cars on a coal delivery trestle! According to first-person accounts I've read, the crew would be in the cabin car as it would roll down the slope and couple onto the train. I wonder how many times they missed. Now for my question: how did they connect the brake hoses when they did this? It seems that reaching down from the platform to do this would be dangerous. John Keel In a message dated 11/6/98 9:14:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Actually, the Pennsy made it a little more complicated to model . At Enola (and some other locations, I believe) , the cabin track was on a grade and the cabin was "rolled downgrade onto the end of the train, sans benefit of switcher. Also the cabin was switched off by flying switches in some cases, also difficult to model. Bob Zoeller >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:48:26 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars Hi Folks.... While were on this cabin car thread..... Anyone out there know what track was the cabin track at Bay View yard in Baltimore Md ? I've always hazily remembered it as being in the receiving (south end ?)part of the yard. Not next to , but away from the main tracks , just north of Orangeville's engine ready tracks (employees called this track "the pit" probably for inspection pits) Also...while i'm talking about Bay View yard...Near North Point road which ran under the center of the yard was where the " hump was ...cars came from the south yard...then to the hump and rolled down to the north yards bowl tracks.That much i remember. This hump is gone now. Disappeared during early Conrail years. I've also wondered if this hump was bi-directional. Anyone know ? The reason i mention the hump in this yard...is that it would be easy to just push a cabin over the hump and let it drift down to the train it would go onto. As a side note here....A small car repair shop was just to the east of the north part of the yard...A steam wrecking crane was kept there next to the repair building during PC years...probably during PRR years too. The repair shop was a metal building...with doors at both ends.... It was still there the last time i was up in Baltimore. At Orangeville....the roundhouse,turntable,engine shop, storage tracks, crew bunk building ,coaling tower and crew dispatcher's office are all gone. Taken out during the constuction of the newer I-95 Harbor tunnel through Baltimore. From what i've been told the turntable was filled in and is still there. One or two of the older storage tracks next to the main might be still there....these were the ones which went to a cold storage company building. Oh before i forget...At the small Mt. Vernon yard which was near Baltimore's Penn station and is now a MTA light rail yard.....This was a single ended yard more or less....for local trains....the train would be made up on ajacent tracks...then it would couple onto the cabin which would be on another track and then the train would leave. Blocks of cars were shuttled back and forth between Mt. Vernon and Bay View depending on use and traffic. I.E......a through train would arrive at Bay View....any cars for a local train on the N.C. branch would be cut out and shuttled over to Mt. Vernon...the next day the local train's engine would arrange the cars for set outs...and then when ready...go from there..... In bound cars were the reverse. The locals engine and cabin were probably also used for the shuttle movements. In Conrail years this local worked out of Bay View and might still do so. Getting long winded here...better go... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 00:25:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Another amazing thing about this car is it still exists. It's located in Geigertown Pa . Has been repainted in a PRR style the last time I saw it. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:05:09 -0500 That car is a clearence car -----Original Message----- > >An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was >taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in >this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:45:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [OPSIG] Re: adding the CABIN.. In a message dated 98-11-07 21:54:01 EST, you write: << According to first-person accounts I've read, the crew would be in the cabin car as it would roll down the slope and couple onto the train. I wonder how many times they missed. Now for my question: how did they connect the brake hoses when they did this? It seems that reaching down from the platform to do this would be dangerous. John Keel >> ***Yes, crew had to be on the cabin, release handbrake, roll down. Try to couple to standing train semi-gently, so as not to spill the coffee..!! Can wind up handbrake again for control and tighten as need be. Release after coupling, climb down, make hoses, make air test, and go. Prototype cars - unlike models - will roll VERY easily. .like model ball bearing axles that are coming out now........Bill***** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:05:09 -0500 That car is a clearence car -----Original Message----- > >An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was >taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in >this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:43:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] PRR cars to the VGN From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Howzit? Greetings from Eldersburg Maryland. Wanna ask if any of you boxcar gurus out there can answer this question for me. Bowser has a lot of PRR round top boxes painted for the Pennsy, and a few for roads that they sold the round tops to later on. My question is: Did the Pennsy sell any round tops to the Virginian Railway? I would love to model this car if it exists. I know the VGN had PS1 boxes, and that is all I know. And on second thought--has anyone tried any of Walthers VGN and PRR decals lately? The newer ones are supposed to be thin and nicely done. I did see the Penn Central (no hissing) ones--the art work and quality was good. Thanks, SGT York ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:30:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? In a message dated 98-11-07 21:49:27 EST, you write: << Just a little bit of lore about hot metal trains, a railroad civil engineer I know once remarked that when those things derail and the hot metal spills, the rails . . . melt! John Bobsin >> *****Hi, John... When I did my 1986 "Chicagoland trip" ( thanks to John Swjakart's maps and info..), I got set up to catch a bottle train at Calumet. I set up to get a good near shot as it went northward (geogr) around a curve toward the interlocking. I was pretty close to the tracks.... How hot was it....?? When I got back for dinner, my wife wanted to know where I got a tan in Chicago..!!!...bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:31:18 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Cabins part II Hello again folks.... I just got finished talking to my dad..He started working for PC right after the merger....PC did things like the PRR did just after the merger (at least on the eastern region anyway).... So...he told me this.... At Bay View yard in Baltimore....there were two cabin car tracks.... One was near the pit tracks (engine ready tracks) and the other was near the hump office. Cabins near the pit tracks were for trains that were to go out....road engines for a given train would pull the cabin for that train and couple it onto the train, then the engines would run around the train and couple on, pump air and test and off they went. Cabins near the hump office were added to trains with a switch engine...probably one of the hump engines. He told me that at Enola...cabins were sometimes arranged by their regional assignments...and spotted so on the "pimple track" then just before your train was to leave your cabin would be let loose and rolled down to the train...Dad said that Enola had switch tenders working there when he was in freight service...so a road crew did'nt have to do the switching....Also he made mention of a light signal system that was used for road crews to let them know what was going on at the back of the train....In the days before radio if a train was too long to see the back end of it they needed some way of knowing what was going on...so this signal system was used.... somehow he said that you could run your cabin to more than one track... and that the signal system could also be used to designate which track you were to drift to. He also made mention of the way they used to cut cars out of a long train on the Port road...Not having radios and since the cabins little whistle was too hard to hear from the head end...the engineer could tell from the train air if a car was cut out...in...or when to push the car off on a siding. Naturally you would know sometimes as the train would go into emergency. I really need to get him on this list.... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: [PRR] Kato's RS-2 Diesel Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:41:06 -0500 Hello, My apologies if the following questions have already been addressed; regarding Kato's RS-2 Diesel can you please answer the following: 1) would the undecorated RS-2 serve as a "very accurate model" for Pennsy's RS-2 engine? 2) Kato's RS-2 comes decorated for the Delaware & Hudson RR; according to John D. Hahn, Jr's book the "PRR - Diesel Locomotive Pictorial - Volume 1 - ALCo RS series", Pennsy's RS-1's were all purchased from D&H. So, it appears that this model would be best for repainting into a Pennsy RS-2 -- is this a correct assumptions? 3) any thoughts on why Kato did not produce a PRR lettered model? Thank you in advance for your comments. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 20:33:12 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: adding the CABIN.. It has been prohibited for years (and unnecessary) but according to accounts of pre-electric Grand Central Depot, inbound locomotives would drop their trains and run ahead out of the way, whereon the cars full of passengers would roll into the station, to be stopped by the crews using just the hand brakes. Steve Bartlett > << According to first-person accounts I've read, the crew would be in the > cabin > car as it would roll down the slope and couple onto the train. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:22:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? Regarding the question on how long a loaded car could be left standing and still be able to pour it's contents I've been told depending on how thick the refractory brick is ( it gets thinner per load ) 24 hours is the general time allotted. This from Jim Kerner who helped with the Steel Series book written by Dean Freytag. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:48:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? In a message dated 98-11-08 19:52:14 EST, you write: > Just a little bit of lore about hot metal trains, a railroad > civil engineer I know once remarked that when those things derail > and the hot metal spills, the rails . . . melt! John Bobsin >> > > *****Hi, John... > When I did my 1986 "Chicagoland trip" ( thanks to John Swjakart's maps and > info..), I got set up to catch a bottle train at Calumet. I set up to get a > good near shot as it went northward (geogr) around a curve toward the > interlocking. > > I was pretty close to the tracks.... > > How hot was it....?? Close to 2300 to 2500 degrees. Just the other day it was rather cold and I was leaning on the side of one of our empty bottles to get warm. After a few seconds I could feel the heat through my coat. I remember aa story about a ladle car that broke out while being filled at the number two blast furnace at the Republic Steel plant in Youngstown. The iron ran all around the car and in effect welded the hot metal car to the rails and to the building columns. It took quite a while to lance through all that iron to clean up the mess. I also remember seeing an 80 ton Pollock HM car with a full load of solidified iron. Somehow they lanced it out because I looked inside the other day and it was empty. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:43:45 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2 Diesel On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Greg Leary wrote: > 1) would the undecorated RS-2 serve as a "very accurate model" for Pennsy's > RS-2 engine? Presumably. If it's not the most accurate then the Stewart RS-3 ph1 would be closer (not right, certainly), and it wasn't available last I checked. > 2) Kato's RS-2 comes decorated for the Delaware & Hudson RR; according to > John D. Hahn, Jr's book the "PRR - Diesel Locomotive Pictorial - Volume 1 - > ALCo RS series", Pennsy's RS-1's were all purchased from D&H. So, it appears > that this model would be best for repainting into a Pennsy RS-2 -- is this a > correct assumptions? The D&H RS-2s were late-production RS-2s and I've seen reports that they were actually closer to RS-3s. I'll see if I can dig up the data. > 3) any thoughts on why Kato did not produce a PRR lettered model? PRR had very few RS-2s, though Kato's supposed to be doing another run of RS-2s (as well as SD-45s) at some point, perhaps PRR will be included. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:14:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT Greg and all, ALCo's my specialty. I had posted information to Jerry sometime back, but I will share it with all. The PRR leased the units from the D&H in 1955 and bought the units (6) outright in 1958. They were built by ALCo under two different order numbers just as ALCo was transitioning from the RS-2 program to the RS-3 program (along with some Great Northern units) and carried the "new" characteristics of the RS-3. The most obvious is the battery boxes on the side of the short hood that had the horizontal louvers. This would become the signature for the Phase 1A RS-3. So far no one has produced this louver set to model the early type units. The units were delivered with 1500hp prime movers and RS-2 electrical components but mounted in the RS-3 cabinet, forcing the battery boxes to the rear of the unit. I have seen these and the GN units listed as both RS-2 and early RS-3 but ALCo considered them RS-2's and sold them to both companies under that agreement so... The units had primemover problems and were retro fitted with new blocks and upgraded but the horsepower remained at 1500, at least as long as they were on the PRR. If you are looking to build a "traditional" PRR RS-3 the ATLAS (good drive, cab and shell so so), STEWART (Athearn power frame for now, shell OK cab still wrong, but better than the ATLAS) or the MDC (currently P2K powered, best shell available), or Hobbytown (noisy, pulls great shell good) can be used to model this unit accurately. One of these models will accurately work for you, but the KATO AIN'T RIGHT! Leave it be it doesn't work at all for the PRR! Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Kato's RS-2 Diesel Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:12:43 -0500 Derrick, Thanks for your insight. Maybe it is best to wait for the second Kato run and see if they do a Pennsy RS-2. Thanks again. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Derrick J > Brashear > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 9:44 PM > To: PRR - Talk Group > Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2 Diesel > > > On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Greg Leary wrote: > > > 1) would the undecorated RS-2 serve as a "very accurate model" > for Pennsy's > > RS-2 engine? > > Presumably. If it's not the most accurate then the Stewart RS-3 ph1 would > be closer (not right, certainly), and it wasn't available last I checked. > > > 2) Kato's RS-2 comes decorated for the Delaware & Hudson RR; > according to > > John D. Hahn, Jr's book the "PRR - Diesel Locomotive Pictorial > - Volume 1 - > > ALCo RS series", Pennsy's RS-1's were all purchased from D&H. > So, it appears > > that this model would be best for repainting into a Pennsy RS-2 > -- is this a > > correct assumptions? > > The D&H RS-2s were late-production RS-2s and I've seen reports that they > were actually closer to RS-3s. I'll see if I can dig up the data. > > > 3) any thoughts on why Kato did not produce a PRR lettered model? > > PRR had very few RS-2s, though Kato's supposed to be doing another run of > RS-2s (as well as SD-45s) at some point, perhaps PRR will be included. > > -D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:12:36 -0500 Greg, Thanks for your response. However, I still have a question (and my apology if you addressed this in your email below): what is wrong with the Delaware & Hudson Kato unit that makes it an incorrect model for using it as a Pennsy model? Are you saying part of the problem is with the battery boxes on the engine? Sorry if I am being "dense" but, I don't understand from your writing what is wrong with the Kato D&H/Pennsy model. Can you please clarify? Thanks. (P.S. Great name! (8>) ) Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 12:15 AM > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU; > NEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU > Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT > > > Greg and all, > ALCo's my specialty. I had posted information to Jerry > sometime back, but I > will share it with all. > The PRR leased the units from the D&H in 1955 and bought the units (6) > outright in 1958. They were built by ALCo under two different > order numbers > just as ALCo was transitioning from the RS-2 program to the RS-3 program > (along with some Great Northern units) and carried the "new" > characteristics > of the RS-3. The most obvious is the battery boxes on the side > of the short > hood that had the horizontal louvers. This would become the > signature for the > Phase 1A RS-3. So far no one has produced this louver set to > model the early > type units. The units were delivered with 1500hp prime movers and RS-2 > electrical components but mounted in the RS-3 cabinet, forcing the battery > boxes to the rear of the unit. I have seen these and the GN > units listed as > both RS-2 and early RS-3 but ALCo considered them RS-2's and sold > them to both > companies under that agreement so... The units had primemover > problems and > were retro fitted with new blocks and upgraded but the horsepower > remained at > 1500, at least as long as they were on the PRR. > If you are looking to build a "traditional" PRR RS-3 the ATLAS (good > drive, cab and shell so so), STEWART (Athearn power frame for > now, shell OK > cab still wrong, but better than the ATLAS) or the MDC (currently > P2K powered, > best shell available), or Hobbytown (noisy, pulls great shell good) can be > used to model this unit accurately. One of these models will > accurately work > for you, but the KATO AIN'T RIGHT! Leave it be it doesn't work > at all for the > PRR! > Greg Martin > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:34:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose In a message dated 11/8/98 6:02:08 PM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Of course there's about a million variables when the train hits the road (not counting rr's like the B&O that used two cabooses on way freights). >> Didn't Indiana have a law requiring a caboose at front and back of a train? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:46:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? In a message dated 98-11-08 21:22:16 EST, you write: > Regarding the question on how long a loaded car could be left standing and > still be able to pour it's contents I've been told depending on how thick the > refractory brick is ( it gets thinner per load ) 24 hours is the general time > allotted. This from Jim Kerner who helped with the Steel Series book written > by Dean Freytag. > > Ken McCorry It varies depending upon, as you say, lining thickness and also metal temperature and how well the spout is covered. The linings are usually good for around 200 fillings, and a car with a 150 ton capacity with a new linging gradually increases in capacity to around 180 tons by the time the lining is replaced. The Mahoning Valley Railroad Heritage Assoc. in Youngstown, OH has two 125 ton capy. Treadwell hot metal cars as well as an open top hot metal car in our collection, in case anyone would like to crawl inside and see what the interior of a bottle car looks like. Just let me know and I'll arrange it. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:53:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT Greg Leary and all, The RS-2 as designed by Ray... ( his last name escapes me right now) from GE had designed the RS-2 to have the cab somewhat level with the frame, thus, the top of the cab height was the same for the RS-3 and the RS-2's windows were taller. With the electrical control panel going below the cab floor the batteries were moved to the boxes behind the cab making the windows shorter on the RS-3. The RS-2 had taller windows in the cab and the floor height was lower. So, PRR's ex-D&H units looked like an RS-3 not the same as the KATO RS-2. I could go on about the PRR RS-3 having the extra box in front of the fireman's side of the cab, but we talking about the RS-2 and you can fall back and read my article on the PRR RS-3 in MAINLINE MODELER. Unlike Jim Six's article, I used the MDC which was an easier conversion then using the ATLAS as JIM did. Kato's RS-2 is beautiful and is worthy of a look, but better for the B&M or the NH (which was freight geared) or perhaps the GM&O. Remember the RS-2 was the Locomotive that forced EMD's hand to produce the GP-7. Greg Martin ALCo Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 98 7:18:35 EST From: Subject: [PRR] Cabin whistles? Hank Mummert, quoting his dad, wrote, "Not having radios and since the cabins little whistle was too hard to hear from the head end...the engineer could tell from the train air if a car was cut out..." Could some one please elaborate on this whistle in the cabins thing. Was this a feature on all cabins or specific types only. When/where did this feature originate? Where was this whistle located? Thanks in advance, Kris ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:09:51 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] replacement drive for Tyco RF-16 To all, 1) Yes, I know that there are better models of RF-16's to be had. 2) Yes, I know that the Tyco shells are not proportioned quite right and the detail is lacking. 3) Having said this, I would like to know, is there a suitable drive that could be used to replace the awful Tyco power-truck? I am wondering about Model Power, or possibly Athearn. I am not interested in shortening or lengthening frames/wheelbases. In the event of an Athearn substitution, what about truck sideframes? Tyco's are too long. One of my sharks has Blomberg truck sideframes. What were they thinking????? Thanks for the help, DOUG ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:31:00 Subject: [PRR] Obs car on Jeffersonian in sunnyside yard Hi list members, While looking for something completely different, I came across this Library of Congress photo showing the (streamlined) obs car on the Jeffersonian at sunnyside yard. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/gsc/5a18000/5a18800/5a18824r.jpg It's outside my era of expertise, so I can't really add any useful info, but I thought you all might like to see the image. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] replacement drive for Tyco RF-16 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 98 09:39:08 -0500 Tyco Thinking? Isn't that an oxymoron? For the correct sideframes you might try a GE U25B. I dont know about the frame length, but Baldwin, Alco, and GE all used the same General Steel Castings trucks. To all, 1) Yes, I know that there are better models of RF-16's to be had. 2) Yes, I know that the Tyco shells are not proportioned quite right and the detail is lacking. 3) Having said this, I would like to know, is there a suitable drive that could be used to replace the awful Tyco power-truck? I am wondering about Model Power, or possibly Athearn. I am not interested in shortening or lengthening frames/wheelbases. In the event of an Athearn substitution, what about truck sideframes? Tyco's are too long. One of my sharks has Blomberg truck sideframes. What were they thinking????? Thanks for the help, DOUG - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:08:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Indianapolis, Hawthorne Yard, Lines West, etc Mark Bej sent me a series of notes about PRR facilities he visited while on a quick trip to Chicago. One he didn't find was Hawthorne Yard, Indianapolis: In a message dated 11/8/98 11:04:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > I started paralleling the PRR from the beltway on in, every so many blocks > turning south to cross the PRR and B&O. But I must have missed it. Of > course, > it stands to reason that no "major" streets would cross the middle of the > yard > (too expensive to build a long bridge), so maybe that's why I did not find > it. I'm assuming the beltway you refer to is the eastern side of I-265, which is Indianapolis' "outer loop bypass" around town. Emerson Avenue south passes right throough the middle of Hawthorne (at the hump). The tricky part is that Hawthorne is quite a few blocks south of the PRR main, and still a distance south from the B&O/Amtrak main, so your "sampling" of streets didn't work. If it makes you feel any better, I haven't been there in years. When I get to Indy, I'm normally tied up downtown, or way north of town. And if I can get time, I usually head west to Avon (traitor!) to catch all the cars and interchange power. Speculation - I'd guess that somewhere around World War I, the Pennsy/Panhandle's traffic was overflowing its old yards closer to downtown. (Note: my rail archaology in the 70s dug up nothing about these older facilities). So the PRR would have liked to build a new freight yard along the main line. The desirable place to do this would have been from Panhandle Junction (overhead crossing of IURy's freight bypass line) out east. But this neighborhood, being in the US 40 East/Washington Street corridor, was already filled with residential neighborhoods. Thus, logical guesswork says that Hawthorne Yard was built in a greenfield site offset south a mile or more off the PRR main (and south of the B&O/onetime ERIE main from Hamilton OH). Hawthorne's eastern end connection angled down southwest from Thorne tower on the Panhandle main east. So this is where trains from Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati, Bradford, Dayton et al would enter the yard. Thorne's site is immediately east of I-265, south of Washington Street. The connection passes under the B&O, according to the Steam Powered Video map I'm looking at. At its western end, Hawthorne wyed into the aforementioned Indianapolis Union Railway freight bypass line at Hamilton Junction, south of Panhandle Jct and south of Pine Jct (B&O/Amtrak, still in existence). Thus, it did not even contribute a line running into IU's Union Station trackage downtown, as traffic to and from the west should have been going around downtown on the IURy's bypass line. West end traffic would have been St Louis, Peoria, Chicago/Logansport, Louisville, a coal branch to Vincennes, and transfer traffic to all other Indy yards. I believe Hawthorne's "add-on" nature is what made it hard for you to find by normal "railfan search" techniques. BTW, I need to know more about steam era Hawthorne, but if there were pictures of the engine facilities, they should show Lines West Consolidations, L-1s, and possibly J-1s. Later, pictures show Hawthorne was home to 2400 hp transfer diesels (the Lima ones?), sometimes shown working the hump at Emerson Ave. By the time I got there, it was all PC EMD geeps and switchers. > > BTW, the freight schedules mention a Transfer Yard. Where was that? This sounds familiar, but I can't find it on my maps. I'll keep looking. Rick Tipton PRRLWF (PRR Lines West Fanatic) Louisville KY ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:51:12 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] Found Train (fwd) Hi all, I got this e-mail and don't have an answer... Can anyone on the list help out? Please copy Tine at busyyears@aol.com on any responses! Rob ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:46:21 EST From: BusyYears@aol.com To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Found Train Hello, Hi My name is Tina and I am writing for my son who found doing a school project a model of an old Lionel Train with the numbers 238E on the side of it. I found out that it was a replica of a PRR Torpedo Train. Lionel I believed made it between 1936-1938. I was wondering if you could give us any information on the train that it modeled. For example, what kind where it went was it a passenger train, the fares it would cost to ride it etc. Anything at all would be helpful. He has to write a paper on the train he found and we thought it would be interesting if he could also write what it represented. Thanks for all your help. Tina. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:43:51 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose I remember reading in Nickel Plate Story about that Indiana law requiring a 6th brakeman on trains larger the 69 cars. RickTipton@aol.com on 11/09/98 09:08:43 AM To: Bobspf@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU cc: charles_castner.parti@pcusa.org, klusk@cube3.net (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose In a message dated 11/9/98 5:55:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > Didn't Indiana have a law requiring a caboose at front and back of a train? > > Bob Zoeller > Or was Indiana the state requiring a 6th brakeman on trains of more than 69 cars? Such a law (if true) would logically lead to those distinctive rider cars on the Monon, cabooses on both ends of trains on the B&O, and probably other interesting approaches to getting one more seat up front. Anybody know the truth? What I've written is no more than secondhand talk. Rick Tipton Louisville, KY (Gateway to what's left of Hoosier railroading). ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:08:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose In a message dated 11/9/98 5:55:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > Didn't Indiana have a law requiring a caboose at front and back of a train? > > Bob Zoeller > Or was Indiana the state requiring a 6th brakeman on trains of more than 69 cars? Such a law (if true) would logically lead to those distinctive rider cars on the Monon, cabooses on both ends of trains on the B&O, and probably other interesting approaches to getting one more seat up front. Anybody know the truth? What I've written is no more than secondhand talk. Rick Tipton Louisville, KY (Gateway to what's left of Hoosier railroading). ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:28:31 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? ---kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > > Hank Mummert, quoting his dad, wrote, > > "Not having radios and since the cabins little whistle > was too hard to hear from the head end...the engineer could tell from > the train air if a car was cut out..." > > Could some one please elaborate on this whistle in the cabins thing. Was > this a feature on all cabins or specific types only. When/where did this > feature originate? Where was this whistle located? Don't know what Hank's dad is referring to, but I do know that PRR used a portable whistle arrangement on cabooses and passenger cars which were involved in reverse movements in stations and across public grade crossings. The basic idea was an air hose that attached to the train line on the rear of the caboose or lasy passenger car. The hose was long enough to allow the whistle and its control valve to be hung on the rear handrail of the caboose, or on the gate or safety chains across the rear vestibule of the passenger car. I suppose the engineer could tell what the whistle was doing by watching the air gauge. I believe I saw these on the rear car of passenger trains which had backed into the Union Station in Pittsburgh. I know I've seen them deployed on cabooses, but I can't think where. This dates back into the '40s and maybe very early '50s. I believe there is something in the rulebook regarding when and where the air whistles were to be used. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:09:49 -0500 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? How does that lancing operation work? What sort of lances are used? TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > I remember aa story about a ladle car that broke out while being filled at the > number two blast furnace at the Republic Steel plant in Youngstown. The iron > ran all around the car and in effect welded the hot metal car to the rails and > to the building columns. It took quite a while to lance through all that iron > to clean up the mess. > > I also remember seeing an 80 ton Pollock HM car with a full load of solidified > iron. Somehow they lanced it out because I looked inside the other day and it > was empty. > > Rick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:10:19 -0500 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? How does that lancing operation work? What sort of lances are used? TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > > > I remember aa story about a ladle car that broke out while being filled at the > number two blast furnace at the Republic Steel plant in Youngstown. The iron > ran all around the car and in effect welded the hot metal car to the rails and > to the building columns. It took quite a while to lance through all that iron > to clean up the mess. > > I also remember seeing an 80 ton Pollock HM car with a full load of solidified > iron. Somehow they lanced it out because I looked inside the other day and it > was empty. > > Rick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:43:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Indianapolis, Hawthorne Yard, Lines West, etc From: caylorman@juno.com (asdf a asdf) I believe Transfer Yard is right behind the GM Bus Factory. You can see the approach to it from I-70 West, starting under the bridge for Holt Rd. (CP Holt) and going toward the east. I have never seen the yard completely, but have caught glimpses of it from I-70 between trailers in a parking lot along the north side of the Interstate. BTW, what were all of the yards that once existed in Indy? I am aware of Hawthorne & Transfer for PRR, and Moorefield for the B&O. Avon was for NYC, but wasn't Middle Hill near Beech Grove theirs as well? Who owned Westside yard too? I know it was their at one time, because I have a NYC (sorry) ETT for Indianapolis Terminal & it names it. I also read something in one of my PRR ETTs about Caven Yard District. Does anyone know where this is? Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded, but I live about 20 minutes from downtown Indy & I have wanted to do a little research myself there. Thanks, E.J. Caylor ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:47:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose From: caylorman@juno.com (asdf a asdf) I believe it was Indiana that had the rider car law for trains with over 70 cars. E.J. Caylor ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 15:51:58 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? robert netzlof wrote: > > ---kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > > > > Hank Mummert, quoting his dad, wrote, > > > > "Not having radios and since the cabins little > whistle > > was too hard to hear from the head end...the > engineer could tell from > > the train air if a car was cut out..." > > > > Could some one please elaborate on this whistle in > the cabins thing. Was > > this a feature on all cabins or specific types > only. When/where did this > > feature originate? Where was this whistle located? > > Don't know what Hank's dad is referring to, but I do > know that PRR used a portable whistle arrangement on > cabooses and passenger cars which were involved in > reverse movements in stations and across public grade > crossings. > > The basic idea was an air hose that attached to the > train line on the rear of the caboose or lasy > passenger car. The hose was long enough to allow the > whistle and its control valve to be hung on the rear > handrail of the caboose, or on the gate or safety > chains across the rear vestibule of the passenger car. > > I suppose the engineer could tell what the whistle > was doing by watching the air gauge. > > I believe I saw these on the rear car of passenger > trains which had backed into the Union Station in > Pittsburgh. I know I've seen them deployed on > cabooses, but I can't think where. This dates back > into the '40s and maybe very early '50s. > > I believe there is something in the rulebook > regarding when and where the air whistles were to be > used. > > === > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > I think Bob is on target here. I saw these whistles used on the PRS-L Grenloch Branch when the train was returning to Camden. The whistle was used to warn the grade crossing and assorted pesky kids putting pennies on the track to clear off. They appeared to be permanently attached on the rail of the cabin, but I was younger then and not really paying attention to those details. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:59:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? In a message dated 98-11-09 08:42:37 EST, you write: > Hank Mummert, quoting his dad, wrote, > > "Not having radios and since the cabins little whistle > was too hard to hear from the head end...the engineer could tell from > the train air if a car was cut out..." > > Could some one please elaborate on this whistle in the cabins thing. Was > this a feature on all cabins or specific types only. When/where did this > feature originate? Where was this whistle located? > > Thanks in advance, > Are we talking about the backup whistles or the brake release valve whistles that were on the AB valves? Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:30:34 EST Subject: [PRR] LCL Shipping - early container cars When talking PRR and LCL - don't forget those early - pre WW 2 - prr cars with lift off containers Believe Red Ball made HO models years ago - have seen "O" scale models which, I believe were from 1939 World's Fair layout Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:00:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) 36 hours is about as long as you would want to keep hot metal in a mixer car. After that you start getting severe skulling on the opening. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:32:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Shipping - early container cars In a message dated 98-11-09 17:22:04 EST, you write: > When talking PRR and LCL - don't forget those early - pre WW 2 - prr cars > with > lift off containers Believe Red Ball made HO models years ago - have seen "O" > > scale models which, I believe were from 1939 World's Fair layout > Dick Ross > Cleveland Youngstown Steel Door manufactured LCL containers in several sizes and types. They were placed in gondola cars for transport. A couple of years ago I found an unused LCL container in YSD's back lot. With a little work that container is now in our organization's collection, an example of an early method of containerization. How many other LCL containers are preserved? Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:28:05 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin car whistles Hi You All.... Gee i though a lot of you guys would know that cabin cars had whistles. Here are some references for pictures that show them..... I think PRR cars had them on only one platform though.....other roads cars sometimes had two. PRR color guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol. 2 on page 96...top picture of cabin no. 477076 you will see a little pipe sticking up between the crash post and the side post...thats the cabin whistle.... also on page 98 top picture of no. 477381, bottom picture same page of no. 477730 on the right side. page 99 middle picture of no. 477746 on the left between the crash post and side post. This one shows up well. page 101 of N-5c no.477865 and no.477886 both on same page. page 107 of N-8 no. 478159 bottom picture...just below brakeman's hand. page 110 of N-6b no. 492401 in M of W service ...between the door and the left window... PRR color guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol. 1 page 96....NDa 479815...left hand platform...near brake wheel same page...bottom picture of N-5 no. 477144...lefthand platform page 99...N-5c no. 477947....shows well in this picture..again between crash post and side post. next page no.100 of N-5c no. 477982...same area page 102...middle picture of N-6b no. 980184....on the right platform just to the right of the brake wheel...where the trees are in the back ground...hard to see. Now on page 103 in the top picture of N-8 no. 478134 it looks as though it has been mounted on the end wall just to the left of the door. You can see the pipe coming out of the floor. On page 118 of PRR's rare N-4 no. 492415 (M of W no.) its located on the platform just to the right of the brake wheel...above the red marker flag and near the right window. I hope this helps with cabin whistle locations. Also once when i rode with dad on a extra passenger train that was used to go from 30th st. station Philly to Delaware Park race track, this train had a back up air hose with a whistle on it on the last car. When going into Delaware Park...the train headed south on the NEC main. To keep the GG-1 from being trapped on the wrong end of the train for departure back-up movements had to be made....usually after the passengers had gotten off the train and were at the park. But sometimes this was done on departure with the train full of passengers. I do remember that one switch to Delaware Park was a southward facing trailing point switch...maybe part of a wye that was run off the main... I also recall Business cars standing in 30th st. station that would have the same type of hose set up on the rear platform. hope this clears things up. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:53:16 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? At 10:28 AM 11/9/98 -0800, robert netzlof wrote: > > >The basic idea was an air hose that attached to the >train line on the rear of the caboose or lasy >passenger car. The hose was long enough to allow the >whistle and its control valve to be hung on the rear >handrail of the caboose, or on the gate or safety >chains across the rear vestibule of the passenger car. > >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > Bob: I also recall seeing a whistle plumbed into the air lines on an N-6 cabin car that I used to bum rides on as a kid. The pipe ran up the outside of the back wall and the whistle could be operated by train service personnel standing on the platform. I don't know if the cars were originally built that way or if someone suggested modifying them...but my recollection is that the whistle was a permanent fixture, at least on that car. Bob Rothrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: [PRR] Hi: New to List Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:54:02 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE0C12.5163EB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Guys, Just joined the list and wanted to say hello. By way of introduction, my = name is Jim Cullen from Frederick, Maryland(I was born and raised in = Philadelphia). I just got back into n-scale model railroading last year = and of course I choose to represent the PRR. I freelance model two = fictitious divisions of the great PRR. Quite an enjoyable hobby. I'm = still learning a lot as I go along. Thanks. Jim Cullen Elizabeth and Austin Divisions of the PRR: http://members.tripod.com/~JimCullen =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE0C12.5163EB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Guys,
Just joined the list and wanted to say hello. By way = of=20 introduction, my name is Jim Cullen from Frederick, Maryland(I was born = and=20 raised in Philadelphia).  I just got back into n-scale model = railroading=20 last year and of course I choose to represent the PRR.  I freelance = model=20 two fictitious divisions of the great PRR.  Quite an enjoyable = hobby. =20 I'm still learning a lot as I go along.  Thanks.  Jim=20 Cullen
Elizabeth and Austin = Divisions of the=20 PRR:
  http://members.trip= od.com/~JimCullen

 
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE0C12.5163EB40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:52:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Indianapolis, Hawthorne Yard, Lines West, etc From: caylorman@juno.com (asdf a asdf) One more question...Where was Panhandle Jct.? What is it's name now? E.J. Caylor ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:24:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car whistles Apparently many of the members of this list have never been on, or paid much attention to the platform of a caboose, for on 90% of the cabs I have been on, they either had whistles or provisions for whistles on both ends. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Found Train (fwd) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:17:27 -0500 If I understand it, the Streamlined K-4 described was designed to pull the BROADWAY LIMITED from New York City to Chicago in the late 1930's. It may have occurred along with the Fleet of Modernism, lightweight passenger cars. I will leave ticket prices to others. Larry Morgan Greenfield IN -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Robert Schoenberg Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:51 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Found Train (fwd) Hi all, I got this e-mail and don't have an answer... Can anyone on the list help out? Please copy Tine at busyyears@aol.com on any responses! Rob ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:46:21 EST From: BusyYears@aol.com To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Found Train Hello, Hi My name is Tina and I am writing for my son who found doing a school project a model of an old Lionel Train with the numbers 238E on the side of it. I found out that it was a replica of a PRR Torpedo Train. Lionel I believed made it between 1936-1938. I was wondering if you could give us any information on the train that it modeled. For example, what kind where it went was it a passenger train, the fares it would cost to ride it etc. Anything at all would be helpful. He has to write a paper on the train he found and we thought it would be interesting if he could also write what it represented. Thanks for all your help. Tina. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:07:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: LCL Shipping - early container cars In a message dated 11/9/98 4:22:04 PM Central Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << Believe Red Ball made HO models years ago >> Those were NYC models, I believe. Now that Sunshine has the FM flatcar, they would seem to be a candidate to produce the PRR container car variant. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:32:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? BTW, while on the subject of hot metal cars, anyone remember the 80 ton Precision Scale Pollock hot metal cars that came out a few years ago in HO scale? These were the ones that rode on four wheel trucks. The prototypes for these cars are at the place I work at, and although not used much we just moved one off the storage track and into the melt shop. I guess I'll watch them pour iron from it tomorrow morning. There is just something fascinating about bottle cars... Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:06:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? Real name =Back-up Hoses... In a message dated 98-11-09 14:06:27 EST, you write: << ittsburgh. I know I've seen them deployed on cabooses, but I can't think where. This dates back into the '40s and maybe very early '50s. I believe there is something in the rulebook regarding when and where the air whistles were to be used. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob >> ***Hi, Bob...Proper name is Back-up Hose, as you described, used into 1980's.. Portables Radios for all replaced them since. Neat device....push in button, get shrill to raucaus whistle ...for warning co-workers, grade crossings, etc. Start moving lever, and actually opened a valve, letting brake pipe air escape....engr could see the B.P. reduction being made by you, and know what to do by pre-arranged discussion. Back-up Bill***** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:07:31 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] More whistle info Hi again... In Bowser's H.O. reference manual,15th edition is a picture of N-5c no. 477989...the whistle and air pipe are on the left platform next to the crash post...you can see it just above the step. Later Guyz Hank M. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:09:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Shipping - early container cars In a message dated 11/9/98 5:30:05 PM Central Standard Time, TodEngine@aol.com writes: << Youngstown Steel Door manufactured LCL containers in several sizes and types. >> One type is made by Westerfield for use in the G22 gon. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: "Merchandise Service" Update Date: Mon, 9 Nov 98 21:57:35 -0500 From: Jerry An update on "Merchandise Service": To be fair to the many other resellers on the lists, I am going to discontinue (for the most part) posting "sale" information to the lists. I do wish to remind everyone, one last time, that your purchases from "Merchandise Service" do pay for the operation of all of the lists and the "Keystone Crossings" web site. So, there is a return on your investment. There is (and has been) a "Merchandise Announce" list. It has been seldom used, until now. I now plan to make one post a week updating the subscribers about new items arriving in stock, monthly specials, etc. I urge all of you to subscribe. For subscription information, see the company site. The company site has been greatly revamped, with a new listing of vendors. We will soon offer an online searchable database of our stock. The site is at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com One final update via the list: Life Like P2K GP7's in PRR are due anyday Red Caboose X29's in PRR "REA" are in stock at $13.50 each; 12 numbers (all backorders shipped today) Red Caboose X29's in PRR "Circle Keystone" are due anyday at $13.50 each; 12 numbers We are now a Digitrax dealer (more info coming) Miracle Castings BP20's still selling like hotcakes; pre-order required! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:46:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Whistles/ Deleware Park trains Hank M. wrote: I hope this helps with cabin whistle locations. Also once when i rode with dad on a extra passenger train that was used to go from 30th st. station Philly to Delaware Park race track, this train had a back up air hose with a whistle on it on the last car. When going into Delaware Park...the train headed south on the NEC main. To keep the GG-1 from being trapped on the wrong end of the train for departure back-up movements had to be made....usually after the passengers had gotten off the train and were at the park. But sometimes this was done on departure with the train full of passengers. I do remember that one switch to Delaware Park was a southward facing trailing point switch...maybe part of a wye that was run off the main... Well, my question's not related to the whistles but to the Deleware Park trains. My uncle was a great track fan and often took me along to the park using these trains.We could catch the el at Berks St in Kensington and get to 30th St in short order, and even 35 years later I recall that service fondly. Couple of questions, though. Weren't there two trains on saturdays, each of which arrived well before the first race? And also, was there any freight traffic on the branch from the main to the track, and just how long was that line? It wasn't far from what's now called the NEC, and I can recall seeing GG1's on the main whipping along behind the back stretch. But the branch was very slow and the years have gone very fast and I don't remember that exactly. Next time I'm back east I've just got to get back to Deleware Park for old times sake. Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:56:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Changes in Cleveland....an award for CR's Hagen... ***The Short Line In Cleveland, OH has been re-configured. A new CP-3 installed, signals moo-ved, changed, etc....details from the ConRail Technical Society.... AND, also reported......The RPI ( Rwy Progress Institute) has bestowed its first ever lifetime achievement award upon Jim Hagen of CR..... Ummm, if CR was / did so good, how come........ the 'New" owners are now Promising / planning / rebuilding / restoring / revitalizing some of the exact same physical plant and local service that CR so readily and willfully destroyed..... Back-to-real-railroading Bill, Modeling the Bonhamtown Branch East of the US Route #1 Crossing in G Gauge, outdoors with actual and prototypical weeds, old tires, stray cats, rusted PL signals, etc......**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:48:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: LCL Shipping - early container cars Folks, At least the one I picked up a few years ago is an NYC version, though I think there was also a Pennsy version. It's a very heavy car, using metal castings and wood blocks, and it definitely needs plastic trucks to hold the weight down a mite. The instructions say it was a passenger service car and should be painted Pullman green, but I don't know enough about the Central to verify that, if anyone cares. Barry P ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:47:34 -0500 From: steve long Subject: [PRR] Indianapolis Towers Here's a Jpeg of a sketch I did of the towers that were in Indianapolis. Hawthorne is off the map to the right. I hope it helps Steve Long ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:20:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose From: padraice@JUNO.COM (Patrick M Egan) A job to be filled on model railroads is thus announced - bean counters. Come to think of it, don't wives normally hold that job? Congratulations on electing a classy governor in Minnesota! I wish we had one of those in Illinois. They should have run Dennis Rodman... Pat Egan (no web access) On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:32:10 EST BPX29@aol.com writes: >Folks, >Seems there's a number of ways to add the way car to a freight, but >the >preferred method is tacking the caboose to the train. Railroads have >never >been fond of wasting money, and moving a whole train costs a lot more >than >moving one car. At least in originating yards, this would be the >preferred >approach. Of course there's about a million variables when the train >hits the >road (not counting rr's like the B&O that used two cabooses on way >freights). >But a good example would be the AT&SF operation one of the fellas is >doing at >the San Bernidino (?) division point, where trains switch cabooses and >crews. >There was a thread on assigned cabooses a while back, it seems. I'd >make a >sizable bet old John Santa Fe wasn't pushing trains onto their new >cabooses >and pulling whole trains off the old one. >As I mentioned once before, figuring in costs on a prototype basis >would put a >whole new light on our operations. >Barry Peltier >St. Paul (home of Jesse the Body Ventura), MN > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 7:22:35 EST From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car whistles Unfortuantely for me I am not as lucky as you have been to ride or stand on many cabin cars. And even the times I have stood on one I never knew they existed so please pardon me and probably several others for our shear ignorance and stupidity (or maybe I was just looking at or standing on the 10% of cabins that weren't equipped with whistle piping). I am a detail fanatic and from now on out I will make it a point to 'pay attention' to look for such details. Thanks to certain people on the list they have not only made me aware of my inattention to detail but they also gave a good list of references so I can research and educate myself. Kris ------------- Original Text From: , on 11/9/98 8:24 PM: Apparently many of the members of this list have never been on, or paid much attention to the platform of a caboose, for on 90% of the cabs I have been on, they either had whistles or provisions for whistles on both ends. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:34:40 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? Real name =Back-up Hoses... On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-11-09 14:06:27 EST, you write: > > << ittsburgh. I know I've seen them deployed on > cabooses, but I can't think where. This dates back > into the '40s and maybe very early '50s. > > I believe there is something in the rulebook > regarding when and where the air whistles were to be > used. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob >> > > ***Hi, Bob...Proper name is Back-up Hose, as you described, used into 1980's.. > Portables Radios for all replaced them since. Neat device....push in button, > get shrill to raucaus whistle ...for warning co-workers, grade crossings, etc. > Start moving lever, and actually opened a valve, letting brake pipe air > escape....engr could see the B.P. reduction being made by you, and know what > to do by pre-arranged discussion. > Back-up Bill***** Conrail Local FY14 - Works the Walden Industrial and customers to the East of Frontier Yard in Buffalo NY still uses the back-up hose when returning to the yard (usually backs down the Main) from the A Industrial Track in Depew NY (Approx MP 428 to MP 435). Just saw it in operation last week. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:57:09 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > > 36 hours is about as long as you would want to keep hot metal in a mixer car. > After that you start getting severe skulling on the opening. > > Rick > I'm surprised that long is OK. As a teenager in Niles (60's) I often saw the hot bottle (what my PRR parents called them) cars go by behind my home at the corner of Main and Maple St. Can't recall whether they were on the Erie or the B&O tracks, but if I recall rightly they were headed southeast. I don't know whether or not the PRR carried them through Niles. I wonder what length of time it was intended to take from pouring hot metal into the car at one site (always a blast furnace?) to draining at the destination, and at what length of time, due to whatever problem, people got worried. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 12:22:42 -0500 From: Jerry The Harrisburg Patriot News, this past Sunday, had an article about goings-on at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. The new $4 million pedestrian bridge linking the museum directly to the passenger station is not yet completed, but last month Amtrak changed their schedules, adversely affecting the museum. The museum was counting on the afternoon Amtrak train (don't recall which one) to carry passengers one-way westbound over the curve. They would then get off at Johnstown and be bussed back. The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, when a ride around the curve would be scenicly worthless. The article quoted that dozens of bus tours to the museum have cancelled...due to the change in train schedule. The article also stated that Amtrak will not consider special excursion trains just for the museum. IMHO, this is perhaps both a good thing and a bad thing for the museum. While immediately bad, it may prompt them to pursue what I think is their best avenue in the long run: getting into the excursion business themselves! True, it would require the cooperation of the Norfolk Southern, but I can't image that one excursion train a day would break their backs. They could set it up like RailFest: a one hour ride up, turn on the Gallitzin Loop, and back down. Now they just need working motive power and rolling stock! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:13:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: LCL Shipping - early container cars PRR version was tuscan red. If someone made the container casting it would be good for all eras up to now - Many containers ented up as relay boxes lineside shanties and handcar sheds Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:10:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [READING] Red Caboose X29's Jerry, I'll have to check down in the basement for imfo on the CNJ car, but the Reading cars were based on the very similar (at least above the side sill) USRA steel box car adopted by the NYC. The Westerfield kit is right on, even to the underframe. These cars had corrigated ends, I think the 5/5/5 USRA, though without looking I can't say they weren't Dreadnaughts. Can supply more info a bit later if you don't get a definitive answer. Aside from the NEB&W book, RMJ had a really good article. (And I even know where my copy is, for once!) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:36:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose Pat, If Dennis Rodman's the best Illinois can come up with, ya maybe better stick to the politicians. The adding caboose angle was more for the LDSIG folks, who like to put everything under a microscope but forget the object of a railraod is to make money. Any operating procedures that waste money will soon be reevalutated, so if a guy wants to operate with any sense of realism he can't avoid the economics of his methods. But since these guys don't know a whole lot about that angle, they pretend it's not a factor. Just seems ironic to not consider the very reason a railroad is in business while nit-picking every spike and tie to death. I try to avoid postings to that list unless they get carried away to the point I can't stand it anymore, and my hand's too numb from hitting the delete key. B.P. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:03:07 -0500 Subject: [PRR] THI&E From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Can anyone tell me where the THI&E Interurban line ran through Greencastle? I was wondering if the old station is still in existence. E.J. Caylor ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:08:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Mark Bej and E.J. Caylor have been asking some good questions about Indianapolis-area yards and some of the relevant towers. As you all know by now, I'm very fond of Mike Walker's railfan atlases of the US, published in Britain by Steam Powered Video. So IMHO the map to start with is Mike's IN-12a on page 17 of the GLE (Great Lakes East) volume. What I'm going to do is to walk us clockwise around the Indianapolis Union Railway's freight belt line, listing junctions, connecting railroads, and where various roads' yards are located. Since I don't know everything there is to know about Indy and its railroads, there may be some errors, which I expect to get corrections on. So be forewarned, this is a work in progress- ABOUT THE IU Ry. The Indianapolis Union Railway was a terminal company put together to build a Union Station at Indianapolis. It was owned by PRR and NYC predecessors, and so presents an interesting blend of their practices. A sample: - Union Station headhouse a red PRR-style Richardsonian Romanesque castle - Union Station trainshed a green-copper shed very similar to NYC Erie PA station - Elevation concretework like other PRR Lines West elevation projects at Dayton and Columbus - Diesel switchers in an NYC-inspired paint. For example, black SW1500's with a white frame stripe. - PRR position-light signals and signal bridges, painted black. Presumably the whole signal plant is PRR-standard US&S. The IU operated three facilities of note: 1. The Union Station itself. 2. A right-of-way (2 tracks or more) that collected passenger trains from the north, east, and south sides of downtown, ran them into the station (via a huge interlocking named IU Jct., what else), crossed the White River, and distributed them back to their various home lines west of the river. 3. To avoid congestion in the station area, a freight bypass line that connected all the same railroads, but carried their freight traffic around Union Station on a right of way that ran perhaps 1.5 miles south of the Union Station. This bypass line seems to be referred to as "The Belt Line" or "The IU Belt Railway". It was mostly double track, grade separated from the street grid, and highly industrialized over its length. TRACING THE INDIANAPOLIS UNION's BELT RAILWAY BELT JUNCTION (MON/CIL from Chicago, N&W/NKP/LE&W from Tipton) We can start on Indy's north side, where the bypass started at BELT JUNCTION. Here, the Monon came in from Chicago, Monon, and Carmel, along the west side of the Indiana State Fairgrounds and straight south to BELT JCT. The Monon once continued south to a downtown yard that supported black-and-gold RS-3's (RS-2's ?) that sounded like they would die any minute. I don't know the name of this yard and enginehouse, but it disappeared under I-65 construction sometime post-1970, after becoming part of the L&N. Remember that until 1956(?) the Monon was the Chicago, Indianapolis, and Louisville Railroad, with reporting marks CIL. Again at BELT JCT, we would pick up the Nickel Plate. Originally a Lake Erie & Western branch ("Leave Early and Walk", the newspapers jeered), this line came from Michigan City, via Plymouth, Peru, Kokomo, Tipton, and Noblesville, following the White River south into Indy. The Nickel Plate also once had a downtown yard southward alongside the Monon's, but that site too is lost to freeway construction. In more recent times, the NKP/N&W operated into a yard on the eastern boundary of the state fairgrounds. This may or may not be called FAIRGROUNDS YARD. DX or CP280 (CCC&StL from Cleveland) Running almost east from BELT JUNCTION, the Belt crosses the Big Four Main at CP280. This major NYC line comes from Cleveland/Berea, across Ohio through Marion, into Indiana at Union City, and approaches Indy from the northwest on a high speed double track alignment. The map suggests there used to be a yard outside the Belt at Brightwood. EASTSIDE (P&E from New Castle IN) The Belt continues east until it meets the Peoria and Eastern (P&E) at EASTSIDE. The P&E comes into Indy from the east, having missed every town of size between there and its starting point in Springfield OH. Nowadays, of course, the P&E's grain elevator business is history, and there is only a line segment left here that goes out to the suburbs to serve several factories. Beyond HUNTER IN, it's abandoned. Note that on Mike's map, it's shown as a CCC&StL (Big Four) line. But although P&E was in the NYC family, it wasn't 100% owned. Therefore I reason it probably wasn't part of the Big Four. Most maps show it as distinctly separate P&E, does anybody know the truth here? PANHANDLE JUNCTION (PRR/PCC&StL from Richmond IN) >From EASTSIDE, the Belt heads south. There it crosses US 40, and then on an overpass across the late PRR "passenger main". This line came into town straight from the east, bringing Panhandle name trains from New York, Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Dayton. Standing on the IU Belt's viaduct, you could see yard trackage west along the PRR passenger main; this must have been PINE YARD. But you could also see the interchange tracks coming up to PANHANDLE JUNCTION on the north side of the overpass over the Pennsy. The 1966 Western Region ETT restricts the track speed between PINE and PANHANDLE JUNCTION to 5 mph. Apparently PINE was a block station on the Pennsy main, possibly at the west end of PINE YARD. To add to the confusion, we will find a PINE JUNCTION nearby on the B&O (described below). In PC's Timetable No. 7 (1975), a time is given for 30 and 31 (Amtrak's National Limited by then) by PINE, but working times of 60 minutes and 35 minutes are shown for 10 and 11 (Mail). PINE YARD office is mentioned in a PRR 1966 ETT, so it probably was Pennsy's passenger yard for the Indy area. Note : Mike's map shows another named location west of here named STATE STREET. I don't remember anything about it. OTOH, I think I remember another location around here on the PRR passenger main, SPRUCE STREET. In any case, I never saw anything of this facility, except after it was a weedy lot. To finish up with PANHANDLE JUNCTION, there was also an Indianapolis Power & Light coal-fired plant somewhere close here, and its hoppers were switched off the IU Belt. PINE JUNCTION (B&O/CI&W/ERIE, Amtrak) Going on south, the IU Belt crosses the B&O main at PINE JUNCTION. This line, nowadays carrying Amtrak's Cardinal, comes from Cincinnati via Hamilton OH and Cottage Grove OH/IN. Originally belonging to an ERIE predecessor, this line is remembered as the Cincinnati & Indiana Western by steam historians, and became B&O well before dieselization. Mike's map shows no B&O yard facilities on this side of town, but there was probably once a passenger yard on this B&O line close in to the IU station trackage. I can remember a fantrip from Cincinnati that was serviced there and then went on downtown to wye at IU Junction. HAMILTON JUNCTION (PRR to HAWTHORNE YARD) Continuing south, the Belt comes to HAMILTON JUNCTION, a wye connection to the east-southeast that is the western approach to PRR's HAWTHORNE YARD. PRR's easterly freights passed into or through HAWTHORNE YARD and regained the Panhandle main via a 2 mile line to what was then the east edge of town at THORNE tower. BELT CROSSING (NYC/CCC&StL/CIC&StL to Cincinnati) Running southwest from HAMILTON, the Belt crosses the Big Four at BELT CROSSING. Just outside the Belt's line is HILL YARD, but farther out in the suburb of Beech Grove is the Big Four's BEECH GROVE SHOPS. This onetime home of NYC freight and passenger car building and program repairs had a sizeable yard on its north end for cars awaiting repairs and repainting. The Big Four line goes southeast to Cincinnati, and was double track main into PC years. We should remember that there were actually a series of "Big Fours", including the familiar Cleveland, Chicago, Cincinnati, and St. Louis, and its predecessor the Cleveland Indianapolis Cincinnati and St. Louis. Nowadays, there are no passenger trains on this line, but BEECH GROVE SHOPS is the main passenger car heavy repair facility. And in the recent past BEECH GROVE has built or finished out new cars for Amtrak and other customers. DALE (PRR/PCC&StL/JM&I/M&I to Louisville) Running on around the south side of downtown, the Belt Line comes to the PRR's Louisville Branch, former Louisville Division. This PRR line came out of Louisville KY, crossed the Ohio River into Jeffersonville, IN, and ran almost straight north through Seymour, Columbus, and Greenfield. This Louisville line had much industry north of DALE, but approached from the south through a city park. Where this single track main crossed the Belt's double track, there was a solid line of industry east and west on the Belt. In the southeast quadrant of the crossing stood a brick multistory Stokely-Van Camp canning plant with just "Van Camp" worked into the brick smokestack. Visible up and down the Belt (when I visited DALE in the 70s) there were cuts of auto high cubes parked. In the northeast quadrant of the crossing stood a one-story, basically concrete block structure, typical of PRR Lines West replacement structures of the 40s and 50s. Working DALE when I visited was one of PC's remaining female operators hired on by PRR during WWII. The Louisville Branch had no yard in the Indianapolis area. I'd bet there was once a yard near the freight house (McCarty Street?), but all signs of it were gone. The Branch ended as the tail of the IU Junction wye just east of Union Station, and must have sent its freight trains over the Belt from DALE to HAMILTON JUNCTION to HAWTHORNE for many years. SENATE AVENUE (IC to Sullivan IN) Running west from DALE, the Belt had an overpass over the south end of SENATE AVENUE YARD. Don't know the name of the three track connections here. The IC came into Indy from the south and southwest, via the southwest Indiana coal fields around Sullivan, Linton, and Switz City. IU SHOPS Running northwest, the Belt was once crossed here by the PRR Vincennes Branch. But this line received a new entry to Indy via CP HOLT just beyond KRAFT on the Panhandle main from St. Louis, and the diamond is out here. From the name, one wonders if the Indianapolis Union has/once had shops at this place. WOODS (PRR/PCC&StL/Vandalia RR to St. Louis) Northwest on the Belt, this frame tower guarded the crossing with the double track PRR to St. Louis. Inside the Belt lay what Mike's map calls WESTSIDE YARD, although my ETT calls it WEST STREET. It had become an IU yard when I fanned it. For some reason, I am under the impression that it had originally been someone else's (PRR?). In any case, Mike's map shows the yard as abandoned. And last time I visited WOODS, the building had been bulldozed away in favor of CTC. Outside the Belt was TRANSFER YARD, extending west to KRAFT. TRANSFER was always full of auto parts cars, although to my shame I don't know whose auto plant lies nearby. Note: E.J. Caylor says, "I believe Transfer Yard is right behind the GM Bus Factory. You can see the approach to it from I-70 West, starting under the bridge for Holt Rd. (CP Holt) and going toward the east." Mike's map doesn't show this, but a 1975 PC timetable has a running track of 1.4 miles, probably down the south side of TRANSFER YARD and possibly serving that auto/bus plant. It looks like this running track came off the IU belt just south of WOODS at VAN JUNCTION, and ran west to KRAFT on the PRR's St. Louis main. Veterans of our postings on Logansport will again notice that VAN JUNCTION is another place named after the Vandalia Railroad, a PCC&StL predecessor that ran from St. Louis to Indanapolis, also from Terre Haute to Logansport and on to Butler IN, where it met a Wabash predecessor. CP1 (NYC/CCC&StL to St. Louis) Straight north a short distance from WOOD tower is CP1, the crossing of the Big Four lying straight west of Union Station. Well west of the city (in fact, in the next county) lies one of the former NYC's pushbutton hump yards. This facility is near the village of Avon IN and has at times been officially called AVON YARD, but 1975 timetables and current (1998) signage at the gate both say BIG FOUR YARD. This could change again when CSX moves in. KD (B&O to Decatur, P&E to Peoria) Running north a few more blocks, the Belt crossed B&O track at the east end of B&O's MOOREFIELD YARD. The B&O line went west to Decatur IL, but CSXT has now lifted the line and the yard. Immediately, the Belt also crosses the P&E track, which used to pass through Speedway on its way out of town. But this segment also used to host the Big Four's passenger trains toward Lafayette and Chicago. The P&E line is still in only to BRANT, from which a stub of the Big Four is still worked north, but no longer reaches Lebanon IN. EDGEMONT AVENUE (CCC&StL?) >From KD, the Belt wanders north through Indianapolis' West Side; I've never been on this segment. One would assume that serving of industrial firms account for the line's survival. At a location identified on Mike's map as EDGEMONT AVENUE, it appears the Belt ended and joined with another right-of-way that used to depart IUS at its immediate west end. This mystery line ran north through the city just a couple of blocks west of the Indiana State Capitol, in the same neighborhood that was built around a canal. My guess (and that's just what it is) is that this mystery line was the original Big Four line northwest to Lebanon, Lafayette and Chicago. Something long ago cut off this line's access to Union Station, and later civic developments (the RCA dome, the Convention Center) were built on top of it. Now just in the last 5 years or less, redevelopment up the canal alignment, with snazzy apartments and new hotel space, has obliterated the rest of this right of way in the downtown area. NOT QUITE A FULL CIRCLE It is interesting that the IU Belt Line was built seven eighths of the way around Indianapolis, but never needed to close the loop. Oddly, no railroads entered Indianapolis from the north-northwest. I don't know why, but there must be another story here somewhere! SOME REMAINING MYSTERIES The 1966 PRR Timetable states standard clocks and bulletin boards were maintained at - HAWTHORNE YARD OFFICE - UNION STATION CONCOURSE - PINE YARD OFFICE and - TRANSFER YARD OFFICE But also names - ARLINGTON AVE. - 400 YARD - ENGINEHOUSE - FOREMAN'S OFFICE - EMERSON AVE - YARD OFFICE and - CAVEN - YARD OFFICE I can assume the enginehouse and the Emerson Avenue yard office are at Hawthorne Yard. But where was Arlington Avenue? Where (as has been asked before) was Caven? Elsewhere in the 1966 ETT, there is a reference to the "West Street Transfer Yard and Caven District", naming a long list of industrial tracks including "Allison Plant No. 8". So Caven must be on or around the PRR St. Louis main. On the other hand, another list "Irvington and Lasalle Street District", mentions a Lasalle Street Yard, so we also need a location for that facility. I'm hoping some of the really hardcore Indy experts will come out and help us fill in these blanks. All help will be very much appreciated. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John \"John\" Bruce" Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:23:08 -0800 Subject: [PRR] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0CCE.C8CE1D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe PRR-talk ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0CCE.C8CE1D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
unsubscribe = PRR-talk
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0CCE.C8CE1D60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:59:53 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] One more whistle reference hi again folks.... Here's one more reference for cabin car whistles....and then i'm gonna get off this thread.... In the november 1968 issue of Model Railroader...the drawings of the N-5b show the whistle in the end view of the car...just to the right of the right crash post. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:49:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] One more whistle reference Hi Guys, I was paging thru the Walthers catalog this afternoon looking for some early number boards to convert a LL P1k, F3 and what did I find but a "Caboose Handrail Mount Whistle with bracket" by Precision Scale. I'll have to admit I never knew such a thing existed until the discussion by the group. Thanks, my education continues! Regards, George. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:08:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT Scott and all, Without getting to technical and drifting to far away from the original question let address your post briefly: sjwhitney@TURBONT.NET writes: << Greg: You seem to have some info here. One question... Were the units riding on the old short RS-2 frame or the new longer RS-3 frame?>> PRR's RS-2's (ex-D&H) were in effect RS-2 components left from the end of the RS-2 production run added to the RS-3 carbodies. Yes, the frame length was 6 inches longer that the RS-2 frame. The added length was in the area between the center of the rear truck (short hood) to the end of the pilot. << Also. moving the battery boxes had nothing to do with the electrical cabinet. Actually it was MORE difficult as now the cables had to be routed down under the frame and back up into the cabinet because the fuel tank was still under the cab floor. It also required relocating all the air brake equipment formerly located on the running board behind the cab on the fireman's side, another pain in the ***.>> The fuel tanks for the RS-2 and RS-3 are on the centerline of the frame between the trucks. The fuel filler on the RS-2 was mounted on the cab side, not so with the ex-D&H units. The battery boxes on the "typical" RS-2 was ahead of the rear truck on both sides of the fuel tank "like" the switchers. If I miss lead someone I did not mean to. <> The unit pictured in John D. Hahn, Jr.'s book #4041 had friction bearing journals, at least in 1961, but it is difficult to tell if the units bearing were converted to rolling bearings in the old covers. It would make a great modeling feature. I hope everyone understand that if you are modeling Pennsy's RS-2 then think RS-3. Greg Martin PS for you PRR-Talk gize you might consider adding MEMRA (LINES WEST) or NEMRA (LINE EAST) to you info list. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SmartAlecA@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:07:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft In a message dated 11/10/98 12:40:41 PM, you wrote: >The museum was counting on the afternoon Amtrak train (don't recall which >one) to carry passengers one-way westbound over the curve. They would >then get off at Johnstown and be bussed back. > >The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, when a >ride around the curve would be scenicly worthless. The article quoted >that dozens of bus tours to the museum have cancelled...due to the change >in train schedule. Amtrak's Northeast Timetable (effective 10/25/98) shows the westbound times for train #43, the "Pennsylvanian," on Page 20. An excerpt: Altoona..............11:20AM Johnstown........12:21PM This is the result of train #'s 43 & 44 being extended from Pittsburgh to Chicago. Despite this revision, I'd be hard pressed to see how these times can be considered as "night hours." These times should still be usable for the purpose of combined rail-bus trips around The Mother Of All Curves. (The times for train #'s 40 & 41, the "Three Rivers," are unchanged.) It seems that you were accidentally given incorrect data regarding the extension of the "Pennsylvanian;" it now runs 3 hours earlier westbound. Albert Alecknavage II (SmartAlecA@aol.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:09:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] One more whistle reference On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I was paging thru the Walthers catalog this afternoon looking for some early > number boards to convert a LL P1k, F3 I wasn't aware anyone made such a thing. Do they? It would be useful.... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:53:10 EST Subject: [PRR] LCL Shipping - early container cars In a message dated 11/10/98 3:43:43 PM Central Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << PRR version was tuscan red. >> I believe both the containers and the flatcar were freight car color, not tuscan red. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:46:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) E.J. "I want to see from within; I want to be where I've been; I want the truth, not a lie; I want to live before I die..." ---- Gene Simmons, "Within" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:32:43 EST Subject: [PRR] List members in Scranton, NEPA area? I've been looking without much luck for a rigging or rane rental company in the northeast Pennsylvania area for a project in Scranton. I have a 100,000 locomotive to lift and place on a railroad flatcar and need to find a rigging company that can do this type of work, and what it would cost. If anyone who lives in the area and could look in their local yellow pages and give me any listings under "crane rental" or "rigging comapnies" I would greatly appreciate it. Rick Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 21:23:20 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/10/98 8:07 PM, SmartAlecA@aol.com (SmartAlecA@aol.com) wrote: >>The museum was counting on the afternoon Amtrak train (don't recall which >>one) to carry passengers one-way westbound over the curve. They would >>then get off at Johnstown and be bussed back. >> >>The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, when a >>ride around the curve would be scenicly worthless. The article quoted >>that dozens of bus tours to the museum have cancelled...due to the change >>in train schedule. > >Amtrak's Northeast Timetable (effective 10/25/98) shows the westbound >times for train #43, the "Pennsylvanian," on Page 20. An excerpt: > >Altoona..............11:20AM >Johnstown........12:21PM > >This is the result of train #'s 43 & 44 being extended from Pittsburgh to >Chicago. Despite this revision, I'd be hard pressed to see how these times >can be considered as "night hours." These times should still be usable for >the purpose of combined rail-bus trips around The Mother Of All Curves. >(The times for train #'s 40 & 41, the "Three Rivers," are unchanged.) >It seems that you were accidentally given incorrect data regarding the >extension of the "Pennsylvanian;" it now runs 3 hours earlier westbound. I'm just repeating what was in the newspaper. Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at Altoona (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short trips on their "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they can get. Maybe there was a change after 10/25? Article was published 11/1. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:46:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) A few notes on that great description of Indy: There is a State St. Yard for the B&O. The yard office is listed in the CSX ETT for 1995, and i've seen pictures of it on Terraserver (sorry, I don't have the URL). I do have the URL at Terraserver for Hawthorne Yard. It's http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetTilesByXY.asp?XId=8513&YId=3668&T ileX=3&TileY=3&SrcId=1&ImgDate=03/01/1992&DSize=2 (It overlooks the remains of the roundhouse) Just to add on something, directly west of CP1, about a mile or so before reaching Big Four yard, are South and North Hunt. These are both the approach tracks to the PRR I&F Branch. According to the Conrail ETT for 1979, the approach for B&O's Moorefield Yard was called Moorefield Jct. Also, I went past there about a year ago, & I think I remember seeing a few overgrown tracks still in the ground at the yard. A quick question that really doesn't have anything to do with Indy, but just popped into my head: In 1979, there was a Conrail section of track in Lebanon called the Gadsden Secondary. I believe in my PRR ETT, the same track was called the Central Indiana Railroad. Were there any PRR operations on this track? I remember seeing something about an enginehouse in Lebanon for this track as well. Does anyone have any other info? Rick, I have seen those same sections about LaSalle St. Yard and Caven District. The Allison Plant 8 may be on the west side, if I am thinking correctly. Allison Transmission has their plants on the west side near 10th street. There used to be some tracks which entered the facility, but they are now gone. If anyone has any other info, that would be great as well. Another question: My PRR 1952 ETT states in Plainfield the existence of a Hobbs Nursery Track. The weird thing is that Hobbs Nursery is on the other side of US 40 from the track, & I don't see any remenents or grades from the track left. Does anyone have any info? Rick, thanks for a great batch of info. It has helped out a lot. E.J. Caylor Trying to gather info on ever railroad in Indy & west to Terre Haute. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:35:22 -0500 Hello Pennsy Fans; To keep you up to date on the R-50b project, it will be in the USA on November 25. Also we have updated our web site (www.railclassics.com) with info on two new projects, the Z-74 Business Cars in 7 versions and the E-6s Steam Locomotives in 5 versions. The work on our next project the X-40 series of boxcars is also listed. Take a look !!! EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:29:47 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? Real name =Back-up Hoses... I remember Santa Fe transfer drafts in Beaumont, Texas, in the 1940's, made with small Stephenson Valve Gear locomotives, shoving long strings of cars toward the SP yard - the rider on the lead box car was on the roof with a backup hose that reached all the way up. Also, you can expect to find a built-in air valve and whistle on the rear platform of open-platform business and observation cars. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:07:46 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) My reply to Rick's excellent article is based on track maps, personal observations, anecdotal evidence, and some pure speculation. On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 06:08:39PM -0500, RickTipton@aol.com reports: > The Indianapolis Union Railway was a terminal company put together to build a > Union Station at Indianapolis. It was owned by PRR and NYC predecessors, and > so presents an interesting blend of their practices. A sample: > - PRR position-light signals and signal bridges, painted black. Presumably > the whole signal plant is PRR-standard US&S. I visited IU tower around 1981. It had pneumatically operated switches and derails and, IIRC, was a GRS (General Railway Signal) plant. > This bypass line seems to be referred to as "The Belt Line" or "The > IU Belt Railway". It was mostly double track, grade separated from the street > grid, and highly industrialized over its length. The "Conrail-ization" of the Beltline is thus: ALL single track, all connections are now hand throw switches, and diamonds use stop boards. > We can start on Indy's north side, where the bypass started at BELT JUNCTION. > Here, the Monon came in from Chicago, Monon, and Carmel, along the west side > of the Indiana State Fairgrounds and straight south to BELT JCT. The Monon > once continued south to a downtown yard that supported black-and-gold RS-3's > (RS-2's ?) that sounded like they would die any minute. I don't know the name > of this yard and enginehouse, but it disappeared under I-65 construction > sometime post-1970, after becoming part of the L&N. Most of this yard was just north of the I-65/I-70 split NE of downtown. The land is now vacant. > EASTSIDE (P&E from New Castle IN) > The Belt continues east until it meets the Peoria and Eastern (P&E) at > EASTSIDE. The P&E comes into Indy from the east, having missed every town of > size between there and its starting point in Springfield OH. At Eastside Jct, the Beltline forked from the south into 3 directions, east to the P&E, north/northeast to a connection with the CCC&StL at Brightwood and west to DX. The P&E at one time did not end here but continued west, crossing the Belt at Eastside, paralleling 21st Street, and connecting with the CCC&StL at Massachusetts Ave. South from Eastside Junction, the beltline was two tracks to 10th St. (MP 10.5) where each track diverged into a main and passing track. It was then FOUR tracks from there south to Hamilton Jct (MP 8.8), then reduced to 3 tracks to Cincinnati Jct (MP 8.0). > PANHANDLE JUNCTION (PRR/PCC&StL from Richmond IN) > >From EASTSIDE, the Belt heads south. There it crosses US 40, and then on an > overpass across the late PRR "passenger main". This line came into town > straight from the east, bringing Panhandle name trains from New York, > Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Dayton. According to the track map, Panhandle Jct. was located directly above US 40 (Washington St.). There were also two transfer tracks on the west side of the Beltline just north of Panhandle Jct. The CI&W (Erie/B&O) mainline ran parallel to the PCC&StL here and did not split away until further east. > To finish up with PANHANDLE JUNCTION, there was also an Indianapolis Power & > Light coal-fired plant somewhere close here, and its hoppers were switched off > the IU Belt. I don't see any mention of this on the track map. I do find spurs for Johnson Coal Co. and Producer's Oil at Panhandle. > PINE JUNCTION (B&O/CI&W/ERIE, Amtrak) > Going on south, the IU Belt crosses the B&O main at PINE JUNCTION. I can find no mention of this on the Beltline track map. > HAMILTON JUNCTION (PRR to HAWTHORNE YARD) > Continuing south, the Belt comes to HAMILTON JUNCTION, a wye connection to the > east-southeast that is the western approach to PRR's HAWTHORNE YARD. Hamilton Jct. also had a connection that came from the west off of the CI&W. Trains from the CI&W could cross over the Beltline to the Hawthorne lead. The lead for the Citizen's Coke and Gas plant was just south of Hamilton Jct. > BELT CROSSING (NYC/CCC&StL/CIC&StL to Cincinnati) > Running southwest from HAMILTON, the Belt crosses the Big Four at BELT > CROSSING. This is called Cincinnati Jct. on the Beltline map. There appears to have been a small transfer yard on the east side of the Beltline just south of Cincinnati Jct. > DALE (PRR/PCC&StL/JM&I/M&I to Louisville) > Running on around the south side of downtown, the Belt Line comes to the PRR's > Louisville Branch, former Louisville Division. Just east of Dale is East St. Jct, probably the site of of a switch tender job or it was remote controlled from Dale. This is where the wye's off the Louisville Branch converged on the Beltline. This branch is now a shortline called the Louisville and Indiana which is owned by Anacostia and Pacific. Rumor has it the CSX is very interested in acquiring this line once it has control of Conrail in Indianapolis. > IU SHOPS > Running northwest, the Belt was once crossed here by the PRR Vincennes Branch. There may have been a crossing here at one time, but not for a long while. The Vincennes branch now curves to the southeast and connects with the Beltline just west of what were the Union Stock yards. The Union Stock yards were located just east of Kentucky Ave. and south of the Beltline. The site is now a large Eli Lilly plant. There was quite of bit of street level industrial trackage between here and downtown, much of it paralleled Kentucky Ave. > From the name, one wonders if the Indianapolis Union once had shops at this place. Probably. > WOODS (PRR/PCC&StL/Vandalia RR to St. Louis) > Northwest on the Belt, this frame tower guarded the crossing with the double > track PRR to St. Louis. Inside the Belt lay what Mike's map calls WESTSIDE > YARD, although my ETT calls it WEST STREET. Just south of Woods was Vandalia Jct. where the connecting track came off the PCC&StL. West St. is east over the White River from here. It is the location of the coal yard for the IP&L steam plant. > Outside the Belt was TRANSFER YARD, extending west to KRAFT. TRANSFER was > always full of auto parts cars, although to my shame I don't know whose auto > plant lies nearby. Note: E.J. Caylor says, "I believe Transfer Yard is right > behind the GM Bus Factory. I believe this is the Detroit Diesel - Allison plant. > Mike's map doesn't show this, but a 1975 PC timetable has a running track of > 1.4 miles, probably down the south side of TRANSFER YARD and possibly serving > that auto/bus plant. It looks like this running track came off the IU belt > just south of WOODS at VAN JUNCTION, and ran west to KRAFT on the PRR's St. > Louis main. This sounds correct. Trains off the Vincennes branch would use this running track to Woods. > CP1 (NYC/CCC&StL to St. Louis) > Straight north a short distance from WOOD tower is CP1, the crossing of the > Big Four lying straight west of Union Station. This is listed as "BX" tower on the track map. > KD (B&O to Decatur, P&E to Peoria) > Running north a few more blocks, the Belt crossed B&O track at the east end of > B&O's MOOREFIELD YARD. The B&O line went west to Decatur IL, but CSXT has now > lifted the line and the yard. This is listed as Moorefield Jct on the the map. > Immediately, the Belt also crosses the P&E track, which used to pass through > Speedway on its way out of town. But this segment also used to host the Big > Four's passenger trains toward Lafayette and Chicago. The P&E line is still > in only to BRANT, from which a stub of the Big Four is still worked north, but > no longer reaches Lebanon IN. It goes as far as Rock Island refinery on the north side of Indy. > EDGEMONT AVENUE (CCC&StL?) > >From KD, the Belt wanders north through Indianapolis' West Side; I've never > been on this segment. One would assume that serving of industrial firms > account for the line's survival. Some the the larger customers were Central Soya and Central Milling along with H.J. Heinz, Caron Pirie Scott, Goodyear Tire, Maytag, Westinghouse, General Electric and Western Electric. > At a location identified on Mike's map as EDGEMONT AVENUE, it appears the Belt > ended and joined with another right-of-way that used to depart IUS at its > immediate west end. This mystery line ran north through the city just a > couple of blocks west of the Indiana State Capitol, in the same neighborhood > that was built around a canal. > > My guess (and that's just what it is) is that this mystery line was the > original Big Four line northwest to Lebanon, Lafayette and Chicago. Ring the bell and give the man a cigar. My track map says "CCC&StL Railway (Old Chicago Division). > NOT QUITE A FULL CIRCLE > It is interesting that the IU Belt Line was built seven eighths of the way > around Indianapolis, but never needed to close the loop. Oddly, no railroads > entered Indianapolis from the north-northwest. I don't know why, but there > must be another story here somewhere! There are some significant valleys to cross in that area, in particular the Eagle Creek valley. > SOME REMAINING MYSTERIES > - ARLINGTON AVE. - 400 YARD > - ENGINEHOUSE - FOREMAN'S OFFICE > - EMERSON AVE - YARD OFFICE and > - CAVEN - YARD OFFICE > I can assume the enginehouse and the Emerson Avenue yard office are at > Hawthorne Yard. But where was Arlington Avenue? Where (as has been asked > before) was Caven? AFAIK, Arlington Ave is the west end of Hawthorne yard. > Elsewhere in the 1966 ETT, there is a reference to the "West Street Transfer > Yard and Caven District", naming a long list of industrial tracks including > "Allison Plant No. 8". So Caven must be on or around the PRR St. Louis main. This is probably the industrial trackage I mentioned earlier along Kentucky Ave and West Street on the southwest side of downtown. This is north of the Beltline and southwest of Union Station. This area used to include a large number of meat packing houses. > On the other hand, another list "Irvington and Lasalle Street District", > mentions a Lasalle Street Yard, so we also need a location for that facility. Not sure about this. Corrections, additions, and comments are, as always, welcome. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:49:18 -0500 From: Dave Freshwater Subject: [PRR] Re: {PRR} Altoona Museum Gets the Shaft Jerry wrote: > > > I'm just repeating what was in the newspaper. Does "The Pennsylvanian" > allow short trip boarding at Altoona (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR > often did not allow short trips on their "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet > Amtrak wants all the riders they can get. > > Maybe there was a change after 10/25? Article was published 11/1. > I picked up a copy of the Fall/Winter 1998 AMTRAK timetables this past weekend, courtesy of the AMTRAK Manager of Passenger Safety and Operation Lifesaver. Amtrak provide copies of the timetables along with materials we handed out at an Operation Lifesaver table at Train Day at one of the local libraries. The timetable was effective Oct. 25, 1998. The cover states that "AMTRAK Schedules will change in the Spring of 1999." It shows daily service on the Pennsylvanian (Train 43) departing Altoona at 11:20 a.m. Next stop is Johnstown, departing 12:21 p.m. Daily service on the Three Rivers (Train 41) as well, but departing Altoona at 7:53 p.m., departing Johnstown at 8:57 p.m. (As stated, not very good for checking out the views.) But, since you may not be able to trust the Timetables any more than you can trust a newspaper, just to check even more, I checked the AMTRAK web page. http://reservations.amtrak.com/ then pick the train schedules button. Departure point Altoona. Destination Johnstown. And the web page provides the same options (trains 43 and 41) with the same departure times. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD Operation Lifesaver Presenter ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:07:40 -0500 My wife and I took Johnstown to Huntingdon on the Broadway and back on the Pennsylvanian a few years ago when we were first getting "hooked" on the PRR. Larry Morgan -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 9:23 PM To: SmartAlecA@aol.com; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft On 11/10/98 8:07 PM, SmartAlecA@aol.com (SmartAlecA@aol.com) wrote: >>The museum was counting on the afternoon Amtrak train (don't recall which >>one) to carry passengers one-way westbound over the curve. They would >>then get off at Johnstown and be bussed back. >> >>The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, when a >>ride around the curve would be scenicly worthless. The article quoted >>that dozens of bus tours to the museum have cancelled...due to the change >>in train schedule. > >Amtrak's Northeast Timetable (effective 10/25/98) shows the westbound >times for train #43, the "Pennsylvanian," on Page 20. An excerpt: > >Altoona..............11:20AM >Johnstown........12:21PM > >This is the result of train #'s 43 & 44 being extended from Pittsburgh to >Chicago. Despite this revision, I'd be hard pressed to see how these times >can be considered as "night hours." These times should still be usable for >the purpose of combined rail-bus trips around The Mother Of All Curves. >(The times for train #'s 40 & 41, the "Three Rivers," are unchanged.) >It seems that you were accidentally given incorrect data regarding the >extension of the "Pennsylvanian;" it now runs 3 hours earlier westbound. I'm just repeating what was in the newspaper. Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at Altoona (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short trips on their "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they can get. Maybe there was a change after 10/25? Article was published 11/1. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:14:39 -0500 From: Dave Freshwater Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > They did in 1985. My wife and I rode from Johnstown to Altoona, finally found > a place a block away for microwaved hamburgers (!), then after another hour or > so, rode back to Johnstown. Daylight trips. > > The current schedule shows the east bound trains depart Johnstown at 10:19 am, arriving Altoona at 11:25 a.m. (Three Rivers - Train 40) and 6:28 p.m./7:28 p.m. (Train 44 (Pennsylvanian). Guess you can always do a long layover in Johnstown. Dave Freshwater ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:15:40 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft They did in 1985. My wife and I rode from Johnstown to Altoona, finally found a place a block away for microwaved hamburgers (!), then after another hour or so, rode back to Johnstown. Daylight trips. Jerry wrote: > ...... Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at Altoona > (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short trips on their > "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they can > get............... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:08:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Alco RS possibilities? In a message dated 11/10/98 7:49:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimsix@ncweb.com writes: > Now I am really upset! :-( I thought that my ALCo RS3s has Westinghouse > traction motors, but they are too short (9"-4" = 114"). Must be that they > have GE traction motors. Now this changes everything. . . > > Anybody want to buy some RS3s with GE traction motors? > > Jim 6 ;^)) > Wow... Alco units with GE traction motors. What a concept! Wait 'til Jerry (Pinkepank) and Louis (Marre) hear about this... :^) Rick Tipton Tongue firmly in cheek ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) > To: RickTipton@aol.com, prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:46:27 -0500 > Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) > From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) > A few notes on that great description of Indy: > A quick question that really doesn't have anything to do with Indy, but > just popped into my head: In 1979, there was a Conrail section of track > in Lebanon called the Gadsden Secondary. I believe in my PRR ETT, the > same track was called the Central Indiana Railroad. Were there any PRR > operations on this track? I remember seeing something about an > enginehouse in Lebanon for this track as well. Does anyone have any > other info? The Central Indiana Railway was a joint property of the NYC and the PRR after it was purchased in 1902 at a foreclosure sale by the Big Four (CCC&StL) and the Panhandle (PCC&StL). It was renamed the Central Indiana Rwy in 1903. About 1927, the joint owners began reducing operations until, in 1943, the line only ran from Anderson to Lebanon. At it's best, it ran from Muncie Indiana to Brazil Indiana. A remanent remains as the Central Indiana and Western. The engine house in Lebanon was the CI and, no, the Pennsy had very little to do with that part of the CI. Ownership passed to PC who began to dismantle it and then to CR and the scrappers. You can read more about this little short line on the 'Railroads of Madision County (Indiana)] pages if you are interested. It was a part of the PRR history. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:37:00 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#41358426: HO Thought someone on the list would be interested in these...there is a $100 reserve. I already have an A-B set, or I would've bid. Title of item: HO LOCOMOTIVE-PROTO 2000 A-B-A SET Seller: rbm@r-mac.com Starts: 11/10/98 19:20:28 PST Ends: 11/17/98 19:20:28 PST Price: Currently $7.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=41358426 Item Description: HO LOCOMOTIVE BY PROTO 2000. This is the long out-of-stock FA2, FB2, FA2 set of three engines. They are Pennsylvania which makes them all the more desirable. Both of the A units are powered the B is a dummy. These are the locomotives with the operating fans. They run very strong and these have just been on the demonstration layout but otherwise they are like new. Kadee couplers have been installed and they are ready to go. When available they sold for $200.00. $100.00 RESERVE. Please add $6.00 for shipping and insurance in the U.S. Overseas Shipping is on an individual basis. Credit cards are ok. Visa, MC, Discover, and AMEX. To send your credit card number send two E-Mail messages each with half your credit card number. Identify the auction by its number on your E-Mail and don't forget to include the expiration date. IN ALL COMMUNICATIONS WITH US, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE AUCTION CLOSES, PLEASE QUOTE THE EBAY AUCTION NUMBER. Please deal with us as we will deal with you. Please don't bid unless you can pay promptly (we expect that will be no more than 14 days). If you bid and don't pay we still have to pay E-Bay ao please abide by the golden rule.IF YOU LIKE TRAINS AND WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE R-MAC HO LAYOUT please click here for a special Index page: SPECIAL EBAY WEB PAGE! FROM THERE CLICK ON THE TRAIN LINK. All of the E-Bay numbered items either are or will be listed in our auctions. Have a nice day. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:01:17 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Greetings to the group, Not only did they allow it but encouraged it. During the summer months in recent years, a US Parks Service ranger would ride the train and describe the journey to the folks who just got on to ride between Johnstown and Altoona. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA >I'm just repeating what was in the newspaper. Does "The Pennsylvanian" >allow short trip boarding at Altoona (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR >often did not allow short trips on their "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet >Amtrak wants all the riders they can get. > >Maybe there was a change after 10/25? Article was published 11/1. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Web Cam in HARRIS Tower!!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 11:10:26 -0500 From: Jerry What a come on!!! No, not the real HARRIS tower... I just finished testing web cam software with my server. Works great! And for only $20! (I already had video input capability.) Now I can't wait to start construction of my layout. Integral with the plan will be the ability to mount a camera behind (north of) HARRIS tower. During operating sessions, those on the internet will be able to look eastbound past HARRIS and into my Harrisburg Passenger Station complex. Alternate locations on the layout would be the Harrisburg Locomotive Facility and ROCKVILLE junction (the Sunbury Branch goes out of sight and is the lead to my staging area). Cool! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:33:35 -0800 I beleive they do. What you cannot do, however, is ride only between New Haven and New York on Amtrak. As part of trackage rights over the Metro North Commuter Railroad (New Rochelle to New Haven), Amtrak agreed not compete for customers. So if you really want to travel Amtrak between New York, Stamford, Bridgeport, or New Haven, you must buy a ticket one station outside of that range, either to Newark or Old Saybrook CT. John > ---------- > Jerry wrote: > > > ...... Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at Altoona > > (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short trips on > their > > "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they can > > get............... > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Changes in Cleveland....an award for CR's Hagen... Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:06:55 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 9 Nov, PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > Ummm, if CR was / did so good, how come........ > the 'New" owners are now Promising / planning / rebuilding / restoring / > revitalizing some of the exact same physical plant and local service that CR > so readily and willfully destroyed..... As the Rev. on the Railroad list said, "NS is spending millions to upgrade Conrail to its standards, and CSX is spending millions to upgrade itself to Conrail standards..." Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 13:04:36 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/11/98 12:52 PM, PRRMAN@aol.com (PRRMAN@aol.com) wrote: >On the previous schedule, No. 43 left Altoona at 2:01pm. >Now, it's 11:20am -- broad daylight. You still have to return >from Johnstown by bus, unless you're willing to spend 6-7 >hours riding the incline, etc. Seems like the problem here >is something other than Amtrak. In providing info to the newspaper, the museum may be offering "selected information". That is, perhaps a person previously arrived at the museum and stayed a few hours, then took the 2:01 train westbound. They would arrive back by bus in the evening. With an 11:20 train, the visitor would have very little time for the museum prior to boarding, and they would return very late in the afternoon, perhaps after the museum closed. My guess is that the museum is whining that their hours are not conducive to the 11:20 train. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:52:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft In a message dated 98-11-10 12:40:41 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: << The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, >> On the previous schedule, No. 43 left Altoona at 2:01pm. Now, it's 11:20am -- broad daylight. You still have to return from Johnstown by bus, unless you're willing to spend 6-7 hours riding the incline, etc. Seems like the problem here is something other than Amtrak. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] UPDATE: Model Power Freight Sharks Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 15:55:49 -0500 From: Jerry Duh! Sorry, my first post had the model # of the passenger sharks. Here's what I meant to ask: Were the Model Power freight sharks of the DR 4-4-15A variety, or the later RF-16? (I probably should already know this!) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:16:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Changes in Cleveland....an award for CR's Hagen... Pennsy folks, "NS standards"? This could be interesting. I don't make any effort to keep up on modern railraoding other than causual railfanning and history-seeking outings, but I have caught a few tidbits on the big Conrail breakup. Seems I've read that NS is going to use Pennsy's old Sandusky Line to feed trains onto the Water Level Route toward Cleveland, at least between Bellevue and Sandusky. Now my wife is from Sandusky and I've seen this piece of "high capacity main to-be" up close, position lights and all. There's a couple spots where a person mowing their lawn would have to cut on both sides of this "main". In Sandusky the line presently crosses the old NYC main at grade, enroute to the docks. This diamond is quite close to Sandusky's main drag (and the location of Pennsy's old yard office) and is hemmed in by this street to the south, Lake Erie to the north and a foundry, if I recall , to the east, along with other industrial structures. Haven't been there in a few years and my bearings could be a little off, but I think this tie-in is going to need some Atlas 15"radius sectional track to fit, unless some real changes are being made. I'm really looking forward to my next visit to that site. Should prove to be quite interesting to see what they work out. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:05:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Found the Indy info very helpful. Once you get past Pittsburgh, info about the PRR is hard to come by. Don't know if everyone is aware of it, but I believe Union tower in Terre Haute is still standing. This tower had a CTC machine that controlled quite a stretch of the St. Louis line. Once you get past Indy, there aren't too many structures to see. The last time I followed the Pandhandle was in 1988. I followed it all the way from Pitt to St. Louis. Some parts of the line west of Dayton looked like they were ripped up yesterday, and other parts were plowed under -- no trace! Has anybody really followed the Panhandle west of Dayton or the Col- Chi line lately? I'm wondering how much of the ROW is still visible. As webmaster for the Railroad Station Historical Society, our site at www.RSHS.org will be up and running by this weekend. We will have a section listing all the remaining PRR structures still standing. Anybody on this list is welcome to check it out and contribute. Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:39:03 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] UPDATE: Model Power Freight Sharks > Duh! > > Sorry, my first post had the model # of the passenger sharks. Here's what > I meant to ask: > > Were the Model Power freight sharks of the DR 4-4-15A variety, or the > later RF-16? RF16. Note the lack of the slatted vents, the deeper "frame" along the side, the longer nose... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:45:46 -0500 (EST) FRANKGARON@aol.com scrivit: > > Don't know if everyone is aware of it, but I believe Union tower in Terre > Haute is still standing. This tower had a CTC machine that controlled quite a > stretch of the St. Louis line. Once you get past Indy, there aren't too many > structures to see. Interesting. I did not know that when I was out there in 1986. > The last time I followed the Pandhandle was in 1988. I followed it all the > way from Pitt to St. Louis. Some parts of the line west of Dayton looked like > they were ripped up yesterday, and other parts were plowed under -- no trace! Well, don't forget that the whole thing is still in from Terre Haute to E. St. Louis -- one of the parts of the PRR that will become CSX. (The other being Crestline to Chicago, and somewhere-short-of-Carrothers to Toledo.) > Has anybody really followed the Panhandle west of Dayton or the Col- Chi line > lately? I'm wondering how much of the ROW is still visible. This bunch of posts about Indiana actually was started by me. In October I travelled out to Chicago to pick up some RR hardware. I made a trip of it, and having seen little of the Panhandle, paralleled it in many areas. The post should be in the PRR-Talk archives, but I can summarize. Pittsburgh to Weirton I believe is cut in two. Uncertain. Weirton to Columbus (Newark) is in, now operated by the Ohio Central. Columbus to London is in. From there to Cincinnati much is out, with some stuff near Cincinnati proper still in, operated by I&O. Tom Vondruska would be the best person to comment on this. Dayton proper is in. The freight main out of Columbus toward Chicago and Indi is gone and, in many areas, hard to recognize as gone. Bradford was the big junction point, where the shortcut to Chicago and the (?older) freight main to Richmond split; all tracks gone. Tower stands. Freight cutoff from Bradford to New Paris (joining Cinci. to Richmond line) is gone. Yard in Richmond is gone. Line in Richmond is still in, having been bought by N&W (?NS). Without good maps, which I don't have, I can't tell you what they managed to connect to what with this bit of the PRR. >From Richmond to almost downtown Indy is gone. In Indi, branch to Louisville still there, and I believe this is still in all the way. >From Indy to Big Four Yard, PRR is in and signalled, partially even position-light. >From here I went up the I&F branch toward Logansport. This is in almost all the way, operated by CR to Frankford (at least, I saw a CR engine); operated by a local authority (Eel Creek RR, I believe) on the northern end. Logansport, lots of PRR still in, in various goodnesses of shape. The WAB is clearly the dominant partner in Logansport these days, though. PRR to Effner is in, branches toward South Bend and Plymouth appear to be in at least partially; I did not follow these. On the east side of town, found location of ANOKA, radio tower still standing. This is where the aforementioned freight shortcut from Columbus came in. This is gone, but the line to ... Marion, is it? ... is in. >From Logansport, the Chicago main is gone, gone, gone almost as soon as you leave Logansport, and remains gone until you get to Dolton tower. There, an extremely short stretch of it is in, paralleling the B&OCT. Then it's gone again, crossing the RI, etc., until somewhere near 59th St. Yard (which CSX has appropriated and rebuilt). From here north, PRR, B&OCT, and CJ parallel each other for a bit. [CJ = Chicago Junction, a NYC property serving the former Stock Yards and environs). >From here on in Panhandle is more in than not, but it is not in on the south side of Western Ave.; it _is_ in from there east. Basically, the entire property has been trashed. The only places where the PH approaches its former glory is the stretch in Chicago coming into the north side of Union Station, and the Terre Haute-St. L. segment. Blame Hasselman? Certainly a fair chunk of the blame lies here. Blame the PRR? Quite possibly. It was largely the NYC properties that had the CTC and rebuilt yards -- at least, more so than PRR did. On the other hand, PRR had coal trains and more passenger trains, rather than fast freight and fast freight and fewer passenger trains ... so perhaps PRR really _needed_ all those extra tracks. Clearly a topic for a dissertation, not something that can be determined with any sort of accuracy in an email paragraph. > As webmaster for the Railroad Station Historical Society, our site at > www.RSHS.org will be up and running by this weekend. We will have a section > listing all the remaining PRR structures still standing. Anybody on this list > is welcome to check it out and contribute. Frank, my previous post listed the stations and towers that I found. I did NOT stop at EVERY town, certainly, but I did stop at a lot. If you can't find it, I'll pull out my notes and list them specifically - email me. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Model Power Freight Sharks Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 15:54:27 -0500 From: Jerry Were the Model Power freight sharks of the DR 6-4-20 variety, or the later RF-16? (I probably should already know this!) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 13:31:09 CST Subject: [PRR] Help!!! Hi, all, Have you heard the one about the absent-minded professor? Seems he started working on two of the Quality Craft PRR Jacks Tower kits (HO) about six months ago, went to some other things on his workbench, and now cannot find the TWO sets of plans he had for this kit. Of course I'm not referring to myself - it's a good friend of mine. I'd NEVER be that absent-minded. So if any of you can offer my friend copies of the plans and kit instructions, I know he's appreciate it. Just let me know off-list. My friend say thanks! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:23:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Altamont Tower From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Anyone happen to know how to get to Altamont Tower (or where it used to be) from Purdue university? Thanks for the info. E.J. Caylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:21:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) The I&F Branch is also in use by Central of Indianapolis too. I've seen a couple of their trains on the line as well. Conrail was just repairing track & replacing ballast up around Lebanon, as I had seen the hoppers on my drive home from Purdue. The portion of the Panhandle that I live the nearest to, Indy to Limedale, doesn't have much of anything. The most I have seen are a few bridge abutments and an intact deck-girder bridge between Clayton & Amo (they're in the ETT), and a few small concrete rectangular buildings that look like they might have once housed some sort of switch machine (If I remember correctly from my ETTs, they are located at opposite ends of a passing siding) Frank, come to think of it, there is at least one old PRR station still standing on the Panhandle. In the town of Amo, west of Indianapolis, the PRR station is now the office for the Amo Feed & Grain. It is constructed of dark red brick with dark green window trim. It looks alot like the same style of building as the Pennsy's Johnstown station when I went to see it a few years ago. Also, in Greencastle, the old PRR Freight station is still standing. It doesn't look as if it is being used, but I took some pictures of it and some pictures around where Limedale Tower used to be one day. if you want, I can try to find them & scan them for you. Other than that, I cannot think of any other surviving structures around my area. E.J. Caylor ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] UPDATE: Model Power Freight Sharks Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:23:23 -0500 Jerry The Model Power Sharks are the RF16s Neil >Were the Model Power freight sharks of the DR 4-4-15A variety, or the >later RF-16? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:09:44 EST Subject: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN In a message dated 11/11/98 5:58:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > Yard in Richmond is gone. Line in Richmond is still in, having been > bought by N&W (?NS). Without good maps, which I don't have, I can't > tell you what they managed to connect to what with this bit of the PRR. Mark, I think you'll find that the logic here is that the N&W acquired PRR's Richmond Branch. It came up from Cincinnati and joined the Panhandle main at GLEN interlocking at the east end of the Richmond yard. Once through Richmond and past the depot and NEWMAN, the Richmond Branch crossed a bridge (over the ? River and the C&O of Indiana), departed the Indianapolis main, and headed northwest for New Castle and a NKP/LE&W branch north to the NKP main at Fort Wayne. Thus, the only part of the Columbus-to-St. Louis main still in around here is the short distance through Richmond between GLEN and NEWMAN. Regards, Rick T. LWF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:53:17 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Mark Bej wrote: > > In Indi, branch to Louisville still there, and I believe this is still > in all the way. This line was sold by Conrail to a shortline operator several years ago and the railroad's new name is (was) the Louisville and Indiana. They even had a Tuscan colored keystone logo with their initials inside ... though not sure if they still use it, haven't been around that area (Jeffersonville, IN) for several years. -D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PDB1854@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:07:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum/Amtrak (long) Greetings to all. For the last day or so I have watched and read the postings regarding a recent article in the Harrisburg Patriot News regarding Amtrak's new service and schedule across Western Pennsylvania. And normally I am a "silent" list- subscriber, choosing to respond directly rather than to the list. Because this is potentially a very volatile issue, I am now going, as Paul Harvey would say, to tell the "rest of the story." First and perhaps foremost, this was not an article we sought. We did not contact the media "whining" or with an "axe to grind" with Amtrak. We were contacted by the reporter after an editor heard from several Tourist Promotion Agencies (TPA's) that the new Amtrak schedule was contrary to growing the casual tourist market in Western Pennsylvania (a significant "plank" in Governor Ridge's 1994 campaign). However, given the opportunity to comment on recent trends at Amtrak that do impact Museum operations, I responded. Since 1996 the Museum has seen the composition of its visitors change in a troubling way. In 1996, 28% of all Museum visitors came in "groups." Groups accounted for 24% of all visits in 1997 and we predict will do no better than 20 or 21% this year. "Why," we asked the motorcoach industry and group leaders. The overwhelming response we heard, and continue to hear, is that Amtrak is "uncooperative toward booking groups, unreliable and inconvenient in terms of schedule." And comments such as these, directed to a public or quasi-public agency, gets my attention. Beginning 11 years ago, the National Park Service at the Johnstown Flood National Memorial, began a program called "Tracks Through Time." On Thursday, Friday and Saturday from May through October the Park Service would board a ranger on Amtrak #42 (at the time) in Johnstown and give an interpretive program over the train PA en route to Altoona. After a layover that at first was three hours, the ranger would board #43 for the trip back to Johnstown. It was promoted in Amtrak's timetables and through regional TPA's. By 1992 over 12,000 persons a year were riding Amtrak because of this program. Not a major impact I admit, but we were creating business for Amtrak at absolutely no additional cost to the carrier. In 1994, I commissioned a major study, "Ridge Rail Excursions." We spent $30,000 of our money studying ridership on the Amtrak western Pennsylvania service. We published the 85 page document in early 1995 and went to Amtrak and elected officials at the State and Federal level to garner support. What we said to Amtrak was simple: ridership was in decline on the Pennsylvanian. Let the Museum be a ticket agent for the unreserved trains, selling space daily, over the phone, in person, however it might occur. Let us keep the 15% travel agency commission and we promised to use the revenue generated to further market the Amtrak service between Pittsburgh and Altoona. We predicted we could increase Amtrak revenues by $1-2 million per year with no added cost to Amtrak. As you might expect, not one senior Amtrak official chose even the courtesy of a response -- negative or otherwise. Almost immediately after publishing the report Amtrak began "tinkering" with the schedule of #42 and #43. The window of time in Altoona shrunk from 3 hours to less than an hour. No longer was it feasible to market this as a heritage experience that would include the Museum (or any other business in Altoona). Overnight we lost 8,000 individual visitors. Scheduling was so ridiculous this year that the NPS, exasperated, gave up. So in 1996 we shifted focus to the motorcoach component of our business. This is mostly a senior citizen market and they want an on-train, around Horseshoe Curve experience. Fine, worked OK for buses. Coaches traveled inbound from wherever, arrived in the late morning, toured the Museum, perhaps the Curve, had lunch (typically at Hoss's by the way), and took #43 west to Johnstown. At Johnstown they were met by their bus, they visited the Flood Museum, the Incline and went on their way. A relatively good business climate. And now we can't even do that and yes, I fear the loss of business -- anyone in business would. Its simply impractical for group operators to get to Altoona from say Pittsburgh or Lancaster or Washington by 9am to tour the Museum before boarding an 11:20 am train to Johnstown. They can't successfully market tours where the bus has to roll at 6am! The alternative, east from Johnstown on The Three Rivers, is laughable. If that train makes it to Altoona less than 90 minutes late we consider it a good day. But again, ask a bus of 45 senior citizens to twiddle their thumbs in an unfamiliar train station for an hour-and-a-half. Not likely. Buses cancelled every single day because the service reliability was zero. And curiously, while all this is going on, I watch out my window in the Master Mechanics Building and see The Three Rivers growing and growing. But not with passenger services and amenities; no sir, with freight cars. My biggest beef is that Amtrak has lost sight of the customer -- totally. They were chartered as an intercity passenger rail service; not a freight, mail or express service. I hate to say it but in my recent dealings with Amtrak the passenger is nothing short of an invconvenience. And yes, Mr. Black, of course you can't serve every imtermediate market with a high level of service; certainly there are sacrifices. But this new schedule clearly doesn't accommodate the "end-point" traveler. If you want to argue that point, look first at the schedule for the "new" Pennsylvanian. It arrives in Chicago at 11:59 pm and the opposite train arrives in Philadelphia at 12:25am. I don't know how the rest of the you might feel but I sure as heck don't want to arrive in either of those points at Midnight. Restaurants are closed and add an hour to get to a hotel -- boy you'll be fresh for that 9am business appointment! And all that after traveling for 18 hours with only a snack car. No the train now serves the US Postal Service -- it was designed for and perhaps by the Postal Service for efficient and less costly movement of mail between those points. And I like low cost mail service; I'll bet we all do. But don't tell me we have a reasonable alternative to the airplane or automobile in passenger rail service with scheduling that blatently inconvenient. So in the end who wins? Certainly we as a museum don't. Businesses in Altoona and Johnstown don't. The person considering Amtrak for business or pleasure travel doesn't. Sure you can see Horseshoe Curve from an Amtrak train in daylight -- that isn't the issue. How much one can sacrifice for the ability to do so is. I' m convinced Amtrak will die by their own hand. Perhaps the sooner, the better. Sorry for the bandwidth. Peter Barton Executive Director Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Horseshoe Curve NHL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: RE: [PRR] Web Cam in HARRIS Tower!!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:51:30 -0500 DON'T EVER GET MY HOPES UP LIKE THAT AGAIN!! LOL So, will the train frequency be the same as by the original? Josh Trower ---------- From: Jerry[SMTP:jerry@dsop.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:10 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Web Cam in HARRIS Tower!!! What a come on!!! No, not the real HARRIS tower... I just finished testing web cam software with my server. Works great! And for only $20! (I already had video input capability.) Now I can't wait to start construction of my layout. Integral with the plan will be the ability to mount a camera behind (north of) HARRIS tower. During operating sessions, those on the internet will be able to look eastbound past HARRIS and into my Harrisburg Passenger Station complex. Alternate locations on the layout would be the Harrisburg Locomotive Facility and ROCKVILLE junction (the Sunbury Branch goes out of sight and is the lead to my staging area). Cool! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:42:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Steve, I've got some pics from Limedale that I'm thinking about scanning. When I find them & get them scanned, I could send them to you if you want. E.J. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:26:25 -0500 From: steve long Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Hey guys, you won't believe it but I have a complete set of the original prints of the I&F branch in it's entireity. It shows all property lines and track layout as well as overpasses. It's really too fragile to ship anywhere since it's on onion paper. It was built in 1916, same year when the Vandalia went under the PCC&STL flag. I also have the CTC signal prints to Limedale showing all trackwork from Bridgeport to Limedale plus the interlocking with the Monon. I just wish I had some good shots of Limedale that included the depot Steve Long. E.J. Caylor wrote: > The I&F Branch is also in use by Central of Indianapolis too. I've seen > a couple of their trains on the line as well. Conrail was just repairing > track & replacing ballast up around Lebanon, as I had seen the hoppers on > my drive home from Purdue. The portion of the Panhandle that I live the > nearest to, Indy to Limedale, doesn't have much of anything. The most I > have seen are a few bridge abutments and an intact deck-girder bridge > between Clayton & Amo (they're in the ETT), and a few small concrete > rectangular buildings that look like they might have once housed some > sort of switch machine (If I remember correctly from my ETTs, they are > located at opposite ends of a passing siding) > > Frank, come to think of it, there is at least one old PRR station still > standing on the Panhandle. In the town of Amo, west of Indianapolis, the > PRR station is now the office for the Amo Feed & Grain. It is > constructed of dark red brick with dark green window trim. It looks alot > like the same style of building as the Pennsy's Johnstown station when I > went to see it a few years ago. Also, in Greencastle, the old PRR > Freight station is still standing. It doesn't look as if it is being > used, but I took some pictures of it and some pictures around where > Limedale Tower used to be one day. if you want, I can try to find them & > scan them for you. Other than that, I cannot think of any other > surviving structures around my area. > > E.J. Caylor > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: [PRR] Custom Railway Supply Trust Plates Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:29:08 -0800 I'm looking for HO scale etched brass equipment trust plate sets produced at one time by Custom Railway Supply. Specifically, I would like to find (Walthers) Part No. 212-275, Passenger and Freight Cars. Please contact me at mtevans@jps.net if you can help. Thanks! Mark T. Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:56:10 -0500 From: Edward Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/98 5:58:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > writes: > > > Yard in Richmond is gone. Line in Richmond is still in, having been > > bought by N&W (?NS). Without good maps, which I don't have, I can't > > tell you what they managed to connect to what with this bit of the PRR. > Mark, > I think you'll find that the logic here is that the N&W acquired PRR's > Richmond Branch. It came up from Cincinnati and joined the Panhandle main at > GLEN interlocking at the east end of the Richmond yard. Once through Richmond > and past the depot and NEWMAN, the Richmond Branch crossed a bridge (over the > ? River and the C&O of Indiana) ( West Fork of the Whitewater River ) Indy line > intatct out to old state hospital abandoned West of that point to > Indianapolis. Ed Long > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Passenger Cars at Altoona Museum Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:51:29 -0800 On my recent visit to PA I saw three passenger cars sitting just outside of the museum yard just under the overpass walkway. One is in Penn Central livery, one in Pennsy MOW yellow, and one appears to be a tuscan "streamlined" Pennsy car. I was told by someone at the museum that these cars were donated to NRHS for restoration purposes. Does anyone know about these cars? Thanks, Greg Stone PRRTHS member always interested in info or photos of Renovo Yards GAS@fastinet.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] M1 on the broadway Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:42:36 -0800 If the M1 was developed for pulling heavy passenger trains over the mountains, did it ever see service on the broadway? Greg Stone PRRT&HS member always seeking info and photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:39:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) According to Conrail ETT's, Louisville & Indiana (LIRC) starts about a mile south of DALE on the Indianapolis Belt. It runs south & has a in Jeffersonville right next to I-65. I assume it is an old PRR yard, and about a mile or so north there stands a tower (I have pictures of both the tower & the yard). Also, to the south, I have a picture of a railroad bridge over the ohio, but there are no approaches to it. Does anyone know who this belongs to? E.J. Caylor PS: The engines I have pictures of are rebuilt GP16's in Family Lines paint. They were rebuilt in Waycross I believe sometime in the 70's. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] 1938 Broadway Cars Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:46:44 -0800 When the pennsy put the 1948 broadway cars in service what happened specifically to the 1938 broadway cars. Does anyone know where they were used? Were they broken up to use amoung many other trains or sent as a group to another assignment? Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Always interested in info. and photos of Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:30:10 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) "E.J. Caylor" wrote: > According to Conrail ETT's, Louisville & Indiana (LIRC) starts about a > mile south of DALE on the Indianapolis Belt. It runs south & has a in > Jeffersonville right next to I-65. I assume it is an old PRR yard, and > about a mile or so north there stands a tower (I have pictures of both > the tower & the yard). Don't know how long the yard has been there, all the buildings look to be of newer design tho. The tower you mention may be the abandoned B&O tower. The only one left standing in the area, that I know of. > Also, to the south, I have a picture of a > railroad bridge over the ohio, but there are no approaches to it. Does > anyone know who this belongs to? > That would be the old Big Four bridge. The L&I uses and is responsible for the old PRR lift bridge that crosses the Ohio. I'd like to know what the maintenance costs on that are! > > E.J. Caylor > > PS: The engines I have pictures of are rebuilt GP16's in Family Lines > paint. They were rebuilt in Waycross I believe sometime in the 70's. > I've got a video I shot back in 95, in their first days of operation ... caught a southbound local with no less than 6 GP16s, running in at least notch 6, on old jointed rail ... boy the racket it made ... music to my ears. :-) The track was in horrible shape when L&I got it, and I'm glad they never suffered any derailments. Many sections I saw were that bad. Shame on Conrail. Anyone have any updated info on the L&I and their operations ? -D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:23:18 -0500 From: steve long Subject: [PRR] signal layouts for specific interlockings and crossings I just dug thru one of my boxes of goodies and found something for everyone, see what you think. I will list below which layouts I have. The last time I sent a Jpeg as an attachment to the PRR- talk, it got stripped from the message. If you want a Jpeg of a certain interlocking listed let me know. Most are on blueprint. I have made positives of a few but it takes a lot of time. A few has nothing but stop boards for protection. Here's the list : PRR interlockings Burnham, Ill Calumet Park,Ill Ford Street, Chicago, Ill Western Avenue, Chicago 49th St Chicago 75th St. Chicago Beverly Junction, Chicago Washington Heights, Ill. West Pullman, Ill Riverdale, Ill Dolton, Ill Bernice, Ill South Branch Bridge, Chicago Alton Jct., Ill, Chicago (40th)Root Street ,Chicago, Ill Englewood, Ill River Branch Jct., Ill Colehour Jct. Chicago Whiting, Indiana Indiana Harbor, Indiana (ship canal) "" " " " " " PFW&C crossing NYC RR Clarke Jct., Indiana Tollestone, Indiana Liverpool, Indiana Hobart, Indiana Brighton Park-Cabin A-Cabin B This one is a dandy, double track Chicago&Alton crossing the following: Chicago Junction,3 track + B&O double track +Panhandle 3 track Ash Street, Chicago looks like a operator's nightmare, non-interlocked 4 parallel track crossing 9 others. 26th street, Chicago non-interlocked 12th street, Chicago non " " 106th street & Calumet Railway non " '" Hammond junction-Wolf lake branch non " " East Chicago right-of way crossing No.1 non " " "" " " " " " No. 3 non Calumet, Indiana Republic,Indiana Hegewisch, Ill Maynard, Indiana Airline, Indiana Lapaz Jct. Indiana Plymouth, Indiana Hibbard, Indiana Delong, Indiana Kewanna, Indiana Remington, Indiana Reynolds, Indiana Bunker Hill, Indiana Redkey, Indiana Union City, Indiana Monticello, Indiana Stateline Tower, Indiana Big Four Lafayette Junction, Indiana Well that's it for now. Steve Long ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:17:09 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Amtrak and the curve Hello you all.... I add a amen to Peter Barton's post....While Amtrak is America's last best hope for intercity rail passenger service...It not what it started out to be...My dad makes a run on the NEC and hes seen it all over the years....In a recent conversation with him he was telling me how Amtrak is trying to cut costs with the train crews too...been doing it for years. I'll give you two examples.... One is the railroader cars that are tacked onto the back of trains. To me this type of car should'nt be on a passenger train...sure Amtrak needs a positive cash flow to get off the Government dole...but they should run those cars on a separate train. Dad says the cars could be unsafe at the high speeds Amtrak wants to evenually run them up to. And some of the members of crews don't even know how to cut them in and out of a train if there was a emergency.Not enough old hands to show them how anymore...And Amtrak is'nt too worried about giving them enough proper training for them right now. Another Amtrak guffaw is the new high-speed trains that they are coming out with for the NEC....Sure the trains will be nice...and fast.... but theres one thing they did'nt concider...the Hudson tunnel width. the new cars will fit in the southbound tunnel...but not the northbound one the cars are too wide. Too bad that they finally realized this after they started to build them.... And what about all the large towns that don't have Amtrak service,but all the little backwater one stoplight towns that do... SEE what i mean...Too many chiefs and not enough indians..... Dad even told me that there is this guy...At first he did'nt know what his job was....Then he found out that all the guy is supposed to do all day 5 days a week is make sure the clocks at the station are working and correct....gee that could be done once a week.Sheesh....what a waste of money....Dad says that Amtrak now has bosses on top of bosses on top of bosses.....Thats where the waste of Amtrak money is.... Cut some of the unneeded management out...get some folks who know how to run trains and make money....and put that money in services that need it. "Still thinking that i gotta get dad on this list"...sheesh. Dad said it right one time about the old way railroads were ran once...The folks back them knew what they were doing and how to do it...Now Amtrak thinks anyone can run one...I feel you still need to know how. I wish the Claytors were still around. Sure they cut trains off of the Southern...but at least they knew that either you made money... or at least covered the losses with freight income or cut the losses completely. You all would'nt believe the waste there is in Amtrak. It was also said best years ago....either properly fund Amtrak or do away with it....Amtrak has been strung along for years....and now we have this wasteful bunch running it.... Well this is where i'm gonna leave this...I've probably said too much already.... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:02:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 1938 Broadway Cars In a message dated 11/11/98 11:19:42 PM Central Standard Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << When the pennsy put the 1948 broadway cars in service what happened specifically to the 1938 broadway cars. Does anyone know where they were used? Were they broken up to use amoung many other trains or sent as a group to another assignment? >> The observation was assigned to the General, which up til that time had not had a tailend car. Painted in the 1948 scheme, retaining its full-length skirting (and napoleon hat triple bolster trucks). Eventually wound up on the Mexican Railway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:21:50 -0800 (PST) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Passenger cars at Altoona Railroaders Mem. Museum In answer to Greg Stone's question, The cars now belong to the Horseshoe Curve Chapter of the NRHS. Well two of them do. The car painted in MOW yellow is a heavyweight Pullman solarium car the Union League Club. The Streamlined car is the Bar/Lounge car the Nicholas Firestone. These cars are both in fairly good shape. We hope to eventually restore these cars at least cosmetically. We are currently in negotiations to lease a siding in Altoona in which to store them for now. We also want to get the roofs coated and such to stablize them for the time being. We are currently cosmetically restoring the Buisness car Duquesne. It is currently sandblasted and stored at Union Tank Car in Altoona. We are working on replacing some of the sheet metal around the windows. Work on it has been on hold for some time because of the large amount of tank cars being refurbished there has left them little time to work on the Duquesne. Finally the Penn Central car is a P70 coach that is in pretty poor condition and is I believe going to be scrapped. If you wish any further info on this or our chapter feel free to email me. Andy J. Mulhollen Member Horseshoe Curve NRHS _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:21:31 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 on the broadway >If the M1 was developed for pulling heavy passenger trains over the >mountains, did it ever see service on the Broadway? Greetings to Greg and the list: The key rule to remember about the PRR is "never say never." So while I'd be foolish to say flatly that no M1 ever pulled the Broadway, it's unlikely that this was ever a regular assignment. A couple of reasons: The Broadway was not a "heavy passenger train," at least by PRR mainline standards. An RPO, five to 10 sleepers (some with configurations that included the lounge and the observation), and a diner. (And not even a diner always in earlier years, when it was cut out in the overnight, non-meal-hour portions of the run). So 28/29 could run as few as seven cars plus the RPO. The heaviest PRR passenger trains were twice, even three times that length, had lots of baggage/head-end cars, etc. But the Broadway's normal consist was fully capable of being handled at 75-80 mph by a single K4 on almost everything [on the Broadway route] but the Pittsburgh Division, where of course the PRR dealt with the problem the way it dealt with all problems -- by throwing money at them (another K4, another crew). Another reason: In the era you're citing, it was PRR practice to keep the same steam engine on its passenger trains from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Why couple an M1 on at Harris Tower to run all the way through to Pittsburgh -- almost 250 miles -- when its greater power would be of substantial use only between Altoona and Gallitzin, 12 miles, or eastbound, going up the West Slope from Johnstown to Gallitzin? Much simpler to just doublehead where it was needed on a spot-application basis, a logical extension of the 1840s operating philosophy of J. Edgar Thomson in surveying/locating the right-of-way. Also, the M1, limited by the physics of its 72-inch drivers, would have been unlikely to be able to furnish the kind of speed-in-reserve necessary to not only maintain the published schedule, but also recover when the schedule got stabbed. On the Middle Division, the best steam-era published nonstop Harrisburg-Altoona running times were about 2:20 for 130.8 miles, or close to 57 mph average, remember, that includes slowing to 30 or so for places like Rockville and all the curves between Huntingdon & Tyrone. So for the Broadway, speed was needed more than power. The one place I *have* seen more than an occasional photo of M1s in passenger service was on the Buffalo main, at least between Harrisburg and Williamsport. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper Dan@cwix.com 1 Corinthians 15:58 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:41:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft In a message dated 98-11-11 13:48:36 EST, johncoop@microsoft.com writes: << What you cannot do, however, is ride only between New Haven and New York on Amtrak. As part of trackage rights over the Metro North Commuter Railroad (New Rochelle to New Haven), Amtrak agreed not compete for customers. So if >> This was true for most of Amtrak's history. But several years back the agreement was amended (I think it was at the time that Amtrak abandoned Grand Central.) Now you can buy Amtrak tickets to, from, or between, all points in MetroNorth territory that Amtrak serves. Prices are 3-4 times higher on Amtrak, so very few tickets are sold for the short trips, i.e. New Haven-Stamford. But quite a few people pay for the speed advantage on the New Haven-New York route. During the original agreement John speaks of, the Amtrak fare from NY to Wallingford,Ct. (1 stop beyond New Haven) was the same as their fare to New Haven itself. Many customers circumvented the rules by purchasing a Wallingford ticket and just hopping off at New Haven. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Cars at Altoona Museum Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 06:24:24 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/11/98 10:51 PM, Greg Stone (gas@fastinet.net) wrote: >On my recent visit to PA I saw three passenger cars sitting just outside of >the museum yard just under the overpass walkway. One is in Penn Central >livery, one in Pennsy MOW yellow, and one appears to be a tuscan >"streamlined" Pennsy car. I was told by someone at the museum that these >cars were donated to NRHS for restoration purposes. Does anyone know about >these cars? One is the "Nicholas Firestone". I took a picture of it at RailFest. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:05:31 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: [PRR] RF16's for sale Greetings, This was posted on the Backshop List, maybe some of you would be intyerested in the 2 RF16's in the list.... From: "BKulik" I'm thinning my collection to better focus on my prototype and era. My loss is your gain. All are custom finished and come with KD's, details added. Price plus shipping via UPS. 2 engines, I'll split the shipping. 3 or more, shipping's on me. Some "what if" models: PA-1 Athearn. BAR tri-color. Detailed with grab irons, windsheild wipers, etc. Can motor. $45 H24-66. Athearn. B&M McGinnis blue. Dummy unit. $15 Prototype models: GP-35 Rail Power body/Cannon high hood on Athearn chassis. Springfield Terminal $50 SD-26. Kitbashed from Atlas body/low nose from a Mantua GP-20. Springfield Terminal. SHELL ONLY; will fit either an Athearn SD-9 or Atlas SD-24 chassis. $25. GP-35. Bachmann. Reading. Missing black diamond herald on fireman's side. Otherwise OK. $15. PRR RF-16 a &b. ALCO Models. Both powered. Brunswick green with single stripe. $160. GP-7. Front Range. Maine Central #576 in harvest yellow. Brandon Kulik kulik01@mint.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] 1938 Broadway Cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 08:36:44 -0500 In a message dated 11/11/98 11:19:42 PM Central Standard Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << When the pennsy put the 1948 broadway cars in service what happened specifically to the 1938 broadway cars. Does anyone know where they were used? Were they broken up to use amoung many other trains or sent as a group to another assignment? >> The observation was assigned to the General, which up til that time had not had a tailend car. Painted in the 1948 scheme, retaining its full-length skirting (and napoleon hat triple bolster trucks). Eventually wound up on the Mexican Railway. Bob Zoeller - ----------------- And I believe that may of the 10-5s were repainted in MP colors for thru service on the Penn Texas. All of the sleepers found their way to "lesser" trains. 18 roomette cars were a regular on the Federal. I think only the D70 diners were retired early. regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:34:04 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:53:17 -0500 > From: DjM > To: Mark Bej > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) > This line was sold by Conrail to a shortline operator several years ago and the > railroad's new name is (was) the Louisville and Indiana. They even had a Tuscan > colored keystone logo with their initials inside ... though not sure if they still > use it, haven't been around that area (Jeffersonville, IN) for several years. Still do. They generally have a loco hanging out around Columbus Indiana. Fairly busy durint the week. Very quiet on the weekends. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:23:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft There are other places where you cnnot take Amtrak on certain trains, such as NYP or PHL to Paoli or Harrisburg on train 41. Or in the other direction on train 40. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Shawn O'Day" Subject: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:54:34 -0800 Time for me to jump in.... >>The other being >>Crestline to Chicago, and somewhere-short-of-Carrothers to Toledo.) Actually the Northern Ohio & Western operates the PRR north from Tiffin to Woodville...from here CR operates into Walbridge and Toledo...This line has/had several large quarry operations located along it. Tiffin is the site of the American Standard Company (toilet fame) and still gets plenty of clay slurry tankcars....Some position light signals still stand but I think all are deactivated.... >>Pittsburgh to Weirton I believe is cut in two. Uncertain. A recent trip to this area and Mingo Jct confirms that the line to Pittsbugh is indeed severed...we crossed over it in Weirton and noticed a nice sweepin ROW minus tracks that would of been the PRR (see a previous trip report on CR-Talk, or I'll send it to ya). Basically the PRR main is just a long tail track used to serve Weirton Steel CO. >>Weirton to Columbus (Newark) is in, now operated by the Ohio Central. >>Columbus to London is in. From there to Cincinnati much is out, >> with some stuff near Cincinnati proper still in, operated by I&O. >> Tom Vondruska would be the best person to comment on this. The section near Coshocton is very scenic also.... Lots of good info on this subject being posted recently...Is anyone putting this all together in a webpage/database or something for future records and/or updating....History is great!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:49:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) That tower in Jeffersonville is probably Boyd, IIRC. It's at the PRR/B&O diamond and has been closed since al least the mid 80's. The B&O line also may still have WI tower in Watson, IN still standing. Combine those 2 with the B&O tower in Seymour, IN PRR crosses the B&O ML to St. Louis and Clagg in Louisville proper, and you have a nice little concentration of towers in a small area. Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:29:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak and the curve From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:17:09 -0500 (EST) bubbles@visi.net writes: > One is the railroader cars that are tacked onto the back of trains. > To me this type of car should'nt be on a passenger train...sure Amtrak > needs a positive cash flow to get off the Government dole...but they > should run those cars on a separate train. Dad says the cars could be > unsafe at the high speeds Amtrak wants to evenually run them up to. > And some of the members of crews don't even know how to cut them in and > out of a train if there was a emergency.Not enough old hands to show them > how anymore...And Amtrak is'nt too worried about giving them enough > proper training for them right now. I wanted to put in a quick response to this one. Amtrak will not and cannot run the cars as a seperate train. The railroads would throw them off, quickly. Remember Amtrak is on trackage rights deal that allows them to run passenger trains, not freight trains. They are tagging these cars onto the passenger trains because of their faster schedule to get the cars across the country. Amtrak had a hard time getting Conrail to sign the new contract for a five-year extension of services because they are already running certain areas at capacity, and if more trains need to run then they need to add track and Amtrak does not pick up this expense, Conrail does. Conrail runs freight, Amtrak runs passengers. The add on cars hail back to the lcl business that was carried by railroads earlier this century so Amtrak feels a right to do this. Just some thought of mine (definitely not all of them on Amtrak). Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:48:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Locating Towers in Greencastle IN In a message dated 11/12/98 12:21:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, caylorman@juno.com writes: > Steve, > I've got some pics from Limedale that I'm thinking about scanning. > When I find them & get them scanned, I could send them to you if you > want. > > E.J. E.J., I'd be interested too. Bet I'm not alone. Rick Tipton LWF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:15:06 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) FRANKGARON@aol.com wrote: > That tower in Jeffersonville is probably Boyd, IIRC. It's at the PRR/B&O > diamond and has > been closed since al least the mid 80's. Yup, that's the one. Was still there as of 3 years ago ... got photos from inside and out, as it had been long abandoned and gutted by vandals. > The B&O line also may still have WI > tower in Watson, IN still standing. Combine those 2 with the B&O tower in > Seymour, IN PRR crosses the B&O ML to St. Louis and Clagg in Louisville > proper, and you have a nice little concentration of towers in a small area. > Don't know about the others, but the B&O/PRR tower at Seymour came down, courtesy of CSX, in '94, a year before I got there to video the L&I.. A relay case now takes it's place. -D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:48:37 EST Subject: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers north of Louisville In a message dated 11/12/98 12:22:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, caylorman@juno.com writes: > According to Conrail ETT's, Louisville & Indiana (LIRC) starts about a > mile south of DALE on the Indianapolis Belt. It runs south & has a yard in > Jeffersonville right next to I-65. I assume it is an old PRR yard, Yes, JEFF YARD is still fully active for LIRC > and > about a mile or so north there stands a tower Called BOYD by the PRR and X by the B&O. The two story brick and concrete structure is now a wrecked shell, but still stands guarding the B&O's branch from WATSON to NEW ALBANY. The B&O is headed for the Ohio River, where it crosses the K&IT BRIDGE and enters YOUNGTOWN YARD (Norfolk Southern, formerly Kentucky and Indiana Terminal Railway). The LIRC/PRR runs south out of Jeffersonville Yard, past a large Colgate Palmolive plant and an ancient brick factory complex that used to be American Car & Foundry/Ohio Falls Car Co., and crosses the Ohio River at the Falls of the Ohio on a mile-long formerly double track bridge (locally known as the Pennsy bridge or the Panhandle bridge). At the south end of the bridge is a drawbridge, controlled by a brick tower named CLAGG. >Also, to the south, I have a picture of a > railroad bridge over the ohio, but there are no approaches to it. Does > anyone know who this belongs to? > This third bridge is just upstream from downtown, and despite being built with "Pennsylvania trusses", a curved-chord Warren truss variant, is called "the Big Four bridge". Technically operated as part of the Louisville & Jeffersonville Bridge & Terminal Company (controlled by NYC), it formed a link from Jeffersonville to Louisville's Central Station, on the waterfront at 7th Street. NYC and B&O passenger trains came to Louisville via the B&O branch from the north through North Vernon IN. Once Central Station closed, the Big Four bridge was redundant. Its approaches were cut up, but scrapping the part over water is awkward; the Ohio has heavy towboat traffic, and nobody wants to close the river to demolish the bridge. In the meantime, it serves two civic purposes: 1) at Christmas, it's lit up with strings of lights. 2) whenever a new broadcaster comes to Louisville, they are quickly passed a traffic advisory that a traffic accident has "closed the Big Four bridge", and everybody has a good laugh. Apparently few radio and TV personalities are railfans, and it gets 'em every time. THE CURIOUS CASE OF THE NORTH-SOUTH ROUTES BTW, as mentioned elsewhere, the CSX is very interested in acquiring the LIRC as a direct route from Louisville to Indy/BIG FOUR YARD. This could be really helpful in breaking the traffic jam at Cincinnati; traffic from south of Louisville could go north to BIG FOUR, and be routed onto the NYC/Big Four's "Bee Line" to Cleveland. This would give some relief to Cincinnati's QUEENSGATE YARD, which although remodeled in the 80s now has nowhere to expand. The above from a source on CSX; while not official, it's something that may be in the works. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael Capone" Subject: [PRR] PRR East Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:48:25 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0E3A.BD705420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great to hear all the interest in the PRR out there, but how about some = news,info,etc for the area New Jersey and New York and the old = "stepchild" the Long Island Railroad? Still see some old PRR freight = cars running around Long Island and in Oak Island yard in NJ. Hope to = hear from anyone! Mike Long Island, NY ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0E3A.BD705420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great to hear all the interest in = the PRR out=20 there, but how about some news,info,etc for the area New Jersey and New = York and=20 the old "stepchild" the Long Island Railroad? Still see some = old PRR=20 freight cars running around Long Island and in Oak Island yard in NJ. = Hope to=20 hear from anyone!
 
Mike
Long Island, = NY
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0E3A.BD705420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:24:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Custom Railway Supply Trust Plates Mark: Unless you find someone who is willing to part with sets of the trust plates, they cannot be had. When the owner of Custom Railway Supply passed away, I contacted his daughter who was selling off the remaining inventory. I asked about buying the art work to do the etchings. She was willing to sell them to me but after searching all her father's items she informed me that the art work had been damaged and was not usable. So without new art work there are no items to be had. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:50:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Towers in Greencastle IN I have an old B&W print of Limedale before it was resided, it was a nice looking tower! I also have a cool shot of a L&N train going past it in PC days. I will try to scan these in soon to the RSHS.org site, and will swap JPEGs with anyone interested, but my scanner is acting up right now! I am an avid tower and depot nut, so anybody that wants to do some trading, contact me offline. Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ (raised on GG1's) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:47:24 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN > From: FRANKGARON@aol.com > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:39:11 EST > To: RickTipton@aol.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN > I might be wrong, but doesn't a few miles of the St. Louis still exist west of > Richmond? I believe it went to Centerville? Didn't Conrail have trackage > rights on the N&W from somewhere to get to this trackage? > > Frank Garon There's a little piece of the Richmond Branch left at New Castle that was accessed by CR from Anderson and Muncie and then to New Castle via the NS. The remainder of the line from New Castle to Anderson became inactive in 1993 and went to the scrapper in November of 1994. Is that what you were thinking of? Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Station Master Job Duties Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 11:44:07 -0500 From: Jerry A few weeks ago I asked about the title of the person in charge of the passenger station and related facilities at Harrisburg, circa 1954. The inside back cover of "The Pennsy" usually lists promotions. I noticed one in a December 1953 issue that announced the promotion of someone to "Station Master, Harrisburg". Sounds like this title would be the top man within the station. What I wonder is, would he control all that relates to passenger operations between STATE and HARRIS, would he be in charge of REA movements south of the station, and would he "perhaps" be in charge of locomotive transfers north to the locomotive facility (which serviced passenger power; freight power was at Enola). Anyone know? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:39:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN I might be wrong, but doesn't a few miles of the St. Louis still exist west of Richmond? I believe it went to Centerville? Didn't Conrail have trackage rights on the N&W from somewhere to get to this trackage? Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:00:14 -0500 From: Jerry I have an opinion question about plywood benchwork. I know Ken McCorry has used it, and there is an article about it in the last issue of MR. I plan to have three levels. The lowest will be hidden staging. Just above that will be my middle level, the lowest visible to guests. This will be a locomotive facility and will be about 4' deep by 23' long. Besides being supported by the 23' wall behind it and the two end walls, it can have support from the floor along the front edge. The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and both ends, just like the middle level. Now, plywood is very strong, and I could use the 3/4" variety. Suppose that, before I drywall the room, I attack the "joists" of the upper level to the studs themselves. They would be in the shape of a giant "T", turned 90 degrees, with the top edge fastened securely along the stud. I would then just drywall around these supports, add a few cross braces, and of course the front edge linking them all together. The "T" would protrude 4' into the room, and the two legs connected to the stud would be 3.5" wide. I could, on the underside, create a slight easement onto the support, rather than a 90 degree cut. Also, during construction -- to support my weight, I could have temporary frontal supports. Okay, for you engineers out there: Does this sound doable and reliable? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:50:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN Hi Roger & list: The piece I am thinking of is the St. Louis line that heads west to Centerville after crossing the Whitewater River in Richmond, In. It is weird when you look at it there, the St. Louis line looks like a branch, and the New Castle line looks like it was the main. Frank Garon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:00:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Roadrailers on Conrail On Wednesday Nov 11th high winds from the Southwest caused a derailment to a Westbound Conrail Roadrailer train on the Sandusky Bay Causeway and Bridge on the old NYC "Lake Shore" line. According to newspaper accounts more than half of the 122 car train derailed, up to 15 of the "Triple Crown" cars, many empty, landed in Sandusky Bay. The high winds also caused Lake Erie water levels to sink by up to 6.5' and prevented waterborne relief equipment from reaching the scene. Conrail crews then "kicked" up to a dozen more cars into the Bay, in order to clear the line, which handles between 60 and 100 trains per day. This is totally "off topic" - except as it relates to the recent thread about similar equipment on Amtrak - which also uses this line. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:32:19 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Subject: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:00:14 -0500 > From: Jerry > To: "PRR-Talk" , "MODELRR" > > The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also > about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want > to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks > along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and > both ends, just like the middle level. This is the part that bothers me, Jerry, the 4 foot distance. I am sure that you could use a sutble angled support back in the back, but 4 feet is a looonnng way to expect anything to hold up for very long without sags. I think that you would do better with less distance.... say 30 inches or even 36 inches. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:18:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: Another I-1 question On all the I-1 engine photos I've seen, except the photo of the first I-1 in the Cyclopedia, the the bracket on which the reverse link is mounted is almost semi-circular. No other class of engine seems to have had that style. Anyone know why only the I-1? I did not like the Bowser mechanism as purchased - it looks like the Cyclopedia photo mentioned above - so I've spent a lot of time making measurements and a pattern, and finally have produced a bracket that looks about right. Then I got to wondering -- do any of the commercial outfits make such a bracket integrated into the boiler support that could replace Bowser's part? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 16:06:20 -0500 Jerry, Plywood is not as strong as ordinary lumber of the same dimension, since half of its plys are alway in a useless orientation. That said, it probably will work given a few caveats. First is the 4' span. I don't know about you, but Micheal Jordan can not reach four feet! If the trains are constrained to the front 2 feet, and the back is just scenery, then it might work. Otherwise people are going to lean (hard) on the edge of the benchwork to reach trains in the back. On a multi-level RR, access holes are out of the question. Everything must be reachable from the front. The most obvious mode of failure for your plywood cantilevers, is to flop over to the side if there is no benchtop to stiffen them. If you are using open top benchwork, consider dialgonal bracing to stiffen the plywood cantilevers. You might even consider steel wire "truss rods"!! Don't forget the turnbuckles, since wire stretchs over time. One solution to the 4 foot problem is to build a new wall in the middle of the room and run 2 foot benchtops on each side. Put your helix at the end of the "table" and achor the whole thing to the ceiling. Alternately consider putting the helix in the middle and running the decks on one side half way up from the decks on the other side of the helix - sort of like a split-level house. That way you halve the time that the train is out of sight in the helix. regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ========= I have an opinion question about plywood benchwork. I know Ken McCorry has used it, and there is an article about it in the last issue of MR. I plan to have three levels. The lowest will be hidden staging. Just above that will be my middle level, the lowest visible to guests. This will be a locomotive facility and will be about 4' deep by 23' long. Besides being supported by the 23' wall behind it and the two end walls, it can have support from the floor along the front edge. The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and both ends, just like the middle level. Now, plywood is very strong, and I could use the 3/4" variety. Suppose that, before I drywall the room, I attack the "joists" of the upper level to the studs themselves. They would be in the shape of a giant "T", turned 90 degrees, with the top edge fastened securely along the stud. I would then just drywall around these supports, add a few cross braces, and of course the front edge linking them all together. The "T" would protrude 4' into the room, and the two legs connected to the stud would be 3.5" wide. I could, on the underside, create a slight easement onto the support, rather than a 90 degree cut. Also, during construction -- to support my weight, I could have temporary frontal supports. Okay, for you engineers out there: Does this sound doable and reliable? - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! - --------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:14:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum/Amtrak (long) ******Excellent , Peter...BUTT...try writing to George Warrington personnally... He was an excellent person to deal with in these situations, and implemented several tie-in deals when he was with his previous RR....This is too important to fade away....Bill *** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:28:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Modern stuff.... ***Just some quickies...Nov 11...( teletype background sounds, pls.....) LTV announced it would perm. close the Cleveland Works Finishing Operations... CR train RR281 derailed near Sandusky ( just mentioned on prrr-talk...a coincidence or what ????...jinx..???) 15 cars went into Sandusky Bay, Coast Guard alerted for unmanned floating objects, etc....Shut down the Chi Line Toledo to Cleve... On ebay, i saw a PRR Chic map 1958, and a Toledo LCL booklet, among other prr stuff. ....it fer now, bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jed Hopewell" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 on the broadway Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:13:43 PST > >>If the M1 was developed for pulling heavy passenger trains over the >>mountains, did it ever see service on the Broadway? >Broadway, speed was needed more than power. The one place I *have* seen more >than an occasional photo of M1s in passenger service was on the Buffalo >main, at least between Harrisburg and Williamsport. > >Hope this helps. >Dan > > >Dan Cupper >Dan@cwix.com >1 Corinthians 15:58 > > I second your statement on the use of M1's on the Buffalo Line. I saw the Penn Valley Pictures Susquehanna Division Film, which shows action around Northumberland and Sunbury, and many M1's were shown on the film. If I remember correctly, they were shown on freights as well. Jed ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:10:50 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR East and West In a message dated 11/12/98 1:36:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes: > Great to hear all the interest in the PRR out there, but how about some news, > info,etc for the area New Jersey and New York and the old "stepchild" the > Long Island Railroad? Still see some old PRR freight cars running around Long > Island and in Oak Island yard in NJ. Hope to hear from anyone! > > Mike > Long Island, NY > Mike, I like your turn of phrase, "all the interest in the PRR out there". As the X-files keeps reminding us, "the truth is out there somewhere". I too would like to see more postings on Lines East, even though my personal exposure to your end of the Pennsy pretty much stopped at Harrisburg. I did once get to Jersey City for one of those notorious harbor tours where the NRHS hijacks a Circle Line boat and spends the day touring rail-marine facilities. It was outrageous -- we got as far upriver (Passaic or ?,) at DOCK at Newark Penn Station. I apologize to you and all the Lines East folks for the wave of "cornfield Pennsy" that you are currently enduring. Please bear with us. Remember, in the East 30 years ago there were enough fan/historians to constitute a critical mass for gathering and conserving information on the PRR. Sheer concentrated numbers insured this worked by word of mouth, slide show, mag articles, books (lots of books), the PRRT&HS, and the Chapters. Meanwhile, Lines West, with equal or greater mileage, and its own unique historical peccadillos, has fans, but we're really spread out. For example, if I want to talk to another active PRRT&HS member, I drive 120 miles to Cincinnati or 120 miles to Indianapolis. Email and PRR-Talk has made all the difference to connect up Pennsy fans beyond Pittsburgh. It is enabling us to pick each other's brains, and conserve the knowledge of folks who were on parts of the railroad long before we saw them. Please bear with us, because we're bound to slow down. One of the things that makes me sad is that I never got to thank the late Jim Lynch for including western divisions in his Keystone articles on towers and facilities. An awareness that this kind of info must be preserved and documented encouraged me to read timetables and take physical plant photos, even when no train was in sight. So let's have more Pennsy, period! BTW, does anybody on the Long Island know about the BM-60 that Pennsy built for LI and N&W, but apparently never used itself? What LI numbers did they run under? Was the RPO compartment 15 foot or 30 foot? How late were they used? Best wishes, Rick Tipton Salivating Pennsy Fan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:53:10 -0500 (EST) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Jerry, My take on this is - - the stress at the wall mount would be extreme. Four feet is an awful lot of free span when the attachment point is only 3 1/2 inches wide (assuming 2 x 4 stud walls). I would be particularly concerned about support during the construction phase. I have a simple 3/4" plywood 4' x 8' double loop layout about 20 % done. I can't tell you how many times I "lean" on the benchwork while I build scenery and structures. And I can get at it from all sides - so I only have to lean in 2 feet. I think your structure should be able to hold most of your weight to accomodate the construction phase. Four feet is a long way to reach :) Since you are building in your basement - I would suggest you re-look at using the ceiling (1st floor floor joists) as support for the end not attached to the wall. If you use a high strength braided wire cable, which can be quite small, I think you could make them almost invisible. The wire would alleviate veiwer blocking that would be created by wood supports. You could also get creative with their placement and plan them into the scenery to minimize the visual impact. Sounds like you are getting closer to breaking ground ? Regards, Ed > Subject: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:00:14 -0500 > From: Jerry > To: "PRR-Talk" , "MODELRR" > Mime-Version: 1.0 > List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. > List-Subscribe: > List-Digest: > List-Unsubscribe: > > I have an opinion question about plywood benchwork. I know Ken McCorry > has used it, and there is an article about it in the last issue of MR. > > I plan to have three levels. The lowest will be hidden staging. Just > above that will be my middle level, the lowest visible to guests. This > will be a locomotive facility and will be about 4' deep by 23' long. > Besides being supported by the 23' wall behind it and the two end walls, > it can have support from the floor along the front edge. > > The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also > about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want > to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks > along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and > both ends, just like the middle level. > > Now, plywood is very strong, and I could use the 3/4" variety. Suppose > that, before I drywall the room, I attack the "joists" of the upper level > to the studs themselves. They would be in the shape of a giant "T", > turned 90 degrees, with the top edge fastened securely along the stud. I > would then just drywall around these supports, add a few cross braces, > and of course the front edge linking them all together. The "T" would > protrude 4' into the room, and the two legs connected to the stud would > be 3.5" wide. I could, on the underside, create a slight easement onto > the support, rather than a 90 degree cut. > > Also, during construction -- to support my weight, I could have temporary > frontal supports. > > Okay, for you engineers out there: Does this sound doable and reliable? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, Systems Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Computer Systems Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6785 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:59:03 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Jerry, While I am working with less length than your 23 ft long wall, I just built an upper level about 11 ft long which is to be considered visually separate from the level below. After worrying for a while over structural ideas that made me uncomfortable, I ran another 11 foot long set of L-girders for the upper level, supported near the ends. The length of the cross joists is about 30 inches maximum - the L girders about 16 inches apart As to your specific question of attaching support brackets directly to the exposed wall studs, neglecting any possible building code conflicts, is sounds structurally ideal to me. Just consider any problems if/when you move and want to sell... Jerry wrote: > ... Suppose that, before I drywall the room, I attack the "joists" of the > upper level > to the studs themselves. .......... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:46:07 -0500 From: Edward Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN The Pennsy St Louis Line I always called it the Indianpolis main does not run past the State Hospital at Richmond and track is removed all the way to Thorne Jct East of Indy. I understand even the high fills at Cambridge City,Indiana are now gone. Also the Indy line and all local industries at Richmond for a time were served by a Conrail local out of Muncie and then Anderson,Indiana with trackage rights via the NS from Muncie. I think Conrail gave this up in 1991 ? ? And now all industry switching at Richmond is handled by NS. Also the C & O Of Indiana runs right up under the NS and ends and is in to Fernald,Ohio. But crossing the B &O Indy line at Cottage Grove,Indiana. Which is were they tie up on Friday and start on Monday. Ed Long ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:37:29 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [READING] Red Caboose X29's From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Hey all: Do you know how I can get a copy of the NEB&W book? Would love to do research with one. Have to find info on boxcars for Mississippi Central, Birmingham Southern, and Columbus & Greenville. SGT York ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:37:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Logansport From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Quick question. What railroad lines and how much trackage makes up the Logansport & Eel River Railway? I see a station of theirs on the way to my girlfriends house in Souh Bend. Also, there looks like a renovated PRR station in downtown Logansport. Was this a freight station, or is there some other story? E.J. Caylor ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:58:13 EST Subject: [PRR] The Famous BM60 Folks, Since mention of the elusive BM60 has again been made, I'll repost the somewhat limited info from Wayner's Pennsy Car Plans. On page 6 of this 1969 publication is a drawing of this car, but surprisingly (maybe) no car numbers are shown. What is shown is a 15'-1" RPO section and a 44'-8' baggage section. 30" rpo door on each side and a 6'-0" baggage door centered ten feet off center of the car. 8ft wheelbase four wheel trucks on 44ft spacing.Mailcase is built against bulkhead that divides the car. No gold star status in this baggage section. Wt 105,500 ;capy baggage end 25,000 pounds. Any chance the Carstens Long Island book has a photo of this car, if it was indeed the type they used? Any chance this was used on a Pennsy secondary route somewhere? No date shown, but the B60-type cars were built way before the N&W purchase dates folks have mentioned on this list. I have to wonder if such a car was ever used on something like a PRSL run, or the BEL-Del or possibly one of the rather far-reaching Pittsburgh commuter runs, maybe back in the 20's or 30's? If anyone ever turns up a postal service contract for a 15 ft RPO, we may be on to something. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:06:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN In a message dated 98-11-11 22:46:55 EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << short distance through Richmond between GLEN and NEWMAN. >> My last time through Richmond was on a NS steam excursion coming up from Cincinnati. When we came to what used to be Glen, I was shocked to see only a 4-track-wide expanse of grass east of the station. Fortunately I rode through there on Amtrak several times before Conrail got "down to business". Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:42:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East and West In a message dated 98-11-12 18:58:41 EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << One of the things that makes me sad is that I never got to thank the late Jim Lynch for including western divisions in his Keystone articles on towers and >> Yes, we should all be glad that Jim consciously decided to work from west to east. I believe he was working on the PIttsburgh or Middle Divisions when he died. Hopefully somebody will finish the job. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Subject: Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:36:13 -0500 Hi Jerry! At the club I belong to, we are doing something very similar to what you are saying. The main difference is that we are cutting "L" shaped supports out of the 3/4" plywood, which will then be bolted (not screwed) to the wall studs. One leg of the "L" extends about 12" down the side of the stud, for added strength. The table depth is much less than you're talking though, only about 16". This is a fairly strong arrangement. Regards! Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:34:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [READING] Red Caboose X29's/ NEB&W Book Sarge, By all means, if you can get NEB&W's "Guide to Steam Era Freight Car Modeling" do so. Be aware that there are two versions of this book: the first one runs about 400 pages and the later one about 650. Either is worth getting, but the second one (NGB-BOOK95.2) has obviously more material. List price is $49.95, but well worth it. There's also a painting guide update for $19.95, but most of it's material is in the main book. They also offer a book that covers all aspects of a railroads envirorment right down to what color paints were made when, auto production, street sign and mailbox colors, fashions, you nane it. I recently aquired yet another of their books, NEB&W Guide II- Prototype information for modellers, which covers car kits introduced since the big guide was published. Also included is a section on passenger cars (though the author, John Nehrich admiditly knows them less well than freight cars), buildings, industrial production, more painting, freight car loads, etc. All these books are readily available direct from Renssaeler railroad shop, except for the big 650 page freight car guide. They only printed about 300 copies, but they may have one still available. I originally got mine from Ron's books, but since he only discounts them 10%, I've got the other direct. I'll readily admit that I've learned more from the Steam Era Guide than I have from 30 years of magizine articles, and the book is endlessly facsinating. Example: ya want Miss. Central? In 1949 they owned 22 36 ft box cars and 100 40' box cars all PS-1's built in 1949, #5000-5099, 6 ft doors, 12-panel sides.Reporting marks had lines and no periods.Another odd ball fact that's good to fool you're modeling friends: the MDC 26 ft "old time" tank car is still usable in 1953, as is the old Ambroid "butterdish" tank car. The only common carrier having "pickel cars" at that time was the Soo. with four cars. And on and on for 650 pages. Check the RPI ads in MR, back with all the little ads by the classified. Give them a call direct (they list their phone). If they ran out, check Ron's books or the internet and I expect you'll turn up a copy. Only problem is, once you get your hands on it, no one will be able to find you for a few days while you dig into it. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:23:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR East,.... and, in other News.....And Great PRR PIC **Hi, Mike - Iam also a PRR-East person, and we had stuff going previously. The Lines West guys just did some great stuff, all interesting to us all. We will have a separate web-site cooking shortly, specializing in PRR NY Div, and L I R R, among other roads. so saty tuned, more to come. Some more Short Notes ( Eastern Stuff...) Washington Union Station = 90 yrs old, ten yrs restored in Sept... Capital Ltd ( former B&O) 75th anniversary... Sunnyside Yard now sports an "On Time Performance Clock; Starts Here"..... The recent Interlocking restructuring / cutover at ZOO Tower ( Philly) was: completed in 18 months completed on time.....as in a safe team...??? accomplished without any injuries and minimal delays to train service...unless you were on Septa or Njt those weekends..... I had the revised ZOO diagram scanned, and is on my site if anyone is interested. AND, for a trip back....http://members.aol.com/prrsignals/prrstluj.jpg ...as in when did you last see E units in DG/ 5 stripe..???..........Bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:18:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Jerry, Having filled a 3000 sq. ft barn with plywood benchwork here is what I would recommend. If you want to have 48'' wide benchwork you should have a L bracket with a 48'' leg for wall mounting. The leg tied into the stud should be down compared to the benchwork. Use a hole saw to make the inside corner of the L a radius rather than a 90 degree angle it will be alot stronger and less prone to failure. I have a good bit of 4' wide upper level benchwork and it will hold me sitting on it without failure. Make sure you use 3/4'' BC exterior as it has 5 plys all set at 45 degrees to each other and is the stongest. By the way on a test before we started we found that a 3'' wide 4' long plywood L bracket is about twice as strong as a 4' long 1by4 with a plywood bracket, plywood is stronger than standard dimensional lumber of the same size . With your 4' width you'll need a front plate to tie into as well as a stiffener about 2' back. Don't skimp on drywall screws tieing into the studs. Use a good glue like Titebond and your joints will be stronger than the wood. Have fun, Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:10:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Logansport In a message dated 11/11/98 7:22:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > > OK, kids, check this out: > > Go to http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Other/logansport.gif > > This is based on my last visit there. > > -- > Mark > Mark, Nice map-making, I like it. Rather than pick nits, I think I should fax you a 1941 PRR map of Logansport's center. That's the easiest way to refine the location and orientation of: - X Yard north of VAN - FERN, where the South Bend Branch leaves the Eel River line. - Yard B up against the Wabash I like your "area" view, which makes overall sense of the seven Panhandle routes coming in. BTW, I'm now counting NINE routes that fed into Logansport, but I'm including junctions at Frankfort (I&F joins Terre Haute line) and Converse (ancient Muncie line joins Columbus main). Fax number? Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 09:27:17 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/13/98 8:58 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >BTW Jerry, HTH are you going to reach the back of a 40" deep deck? The >ABSOLUTE MAX that seems to come up in the LDSIG is 24-28". I mean, I've >met you and it didn't seem like it was 40" from you fingers to your arm pit! Yeah, but you should see me after I eats me spinach! (Actually, I hate spinach.) My room is only 9' wide. To have a decent radius, I must reserve 1' on one wall for return tracks. That, minus an aisle (of no less than) 3', leaves 5' usable. I "want" to do the Harrisburg train station. Ten passenger tracks plus two freight tracks times 2" each = 24". Add to that five 4"+/- wide station platforms adds another 20". Add the extra 2" for the front clearance and we're up to 46". The good news is that the entire area is flat, structures can be easily removed, and I "could" lay on the layout to work in the back. Suppose I could leave a 1' access on the back side of the layout. But that would really be a squeeze. If I reduce the aisle to 2.5', that would allow a 1.5' access from the back side, though it would require a tighter radius at the end of the room. RECAP: The room is 23' by 9'. Plus, off one end is a 9' by 8' extension. That's were I plan to have my helix and out-of-sight fiddle area (inside a reverted loop). See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/givens.html I'm open to suggestions. Suppose I could forgo the loco terminal and only do one level, but that would be a great loss. The passenger station will be the focal point, as all kinds of moves are made between trains and with the REA. Not to mention loco moves. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East and West From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 09:00:38 -0500 In a message dated 11/12/98 1:36:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes: (in part) . . . BTW, does anybody on the Long Island know about the BM-60 that Pennsy built for LI and N&W, but apparently never used itself? What LI numbers did they run under? Was the RPO compartment 15 foot or 30 foot? How late were they used? Best wishes, Rick Tipton Salivating Pennsy Fan ======= I have a foto of a LIRR BM60. I believe I took it from the Jamaica platform many may years ago. I will see if it is good enough to see the number. regards Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East and West From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 09:00:38 -0500 In a message dated 11/12/98 1:36:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes: (in part) . . . BTW, does anybody on the Long Island know about the BM-60 that Pennsy built for LI and N&W, but apparently never used itself? What LI numbers did they run under? Was the RPO compartment 15 foot or 30 foot? How late were they used? Best wishes, Rick Tipton Salivating Pennsy Fan ======= I have a foto of a LIRR BM60. I believe I took it from the Jamaica platform many may years ago. I will see if it is good enough to see the number. regards Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:58:14 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Jerry said: >> The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also >> about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want >> to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks >> along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and >> both ends, just like the middle level. > Roger replied: This is the part that bothers me, Jerry, the 4 foot distance. > I am sure that you could use a sutble angled support back > in the back, but 4 feet is a looonnng way to expect anything > to hold up for very long without sags. I think that you > would do better with less distance.... say 30 inches or even 36 > inches. I second the motion...and here are a few other solutions from the Layout Design SIG of the NMRA (which BTW has an excellent chat list with the likes of Tony Koester and Andy Sperandeo on it). I would also like point out that, due to the laminations, plywood is in fact STRONGER than the same size dimensional lumber and far more STABLE. This is true even though 1/2 the laminations run the "wrong way" as the laminations provide additional strength. OK, now the solutions 1) Suspend it from the ceiling in only 1 or 2 locations, use wire, and don't put the wire at the front edge - it can be set back creating a cantilever. Hide the wire in a smoke stack 2) Angel your brackets as Roger suggests - I would go to at least 6" at the rear and preferable 8". Use a curve, and cove to the backdrop. With either #1 or #2, reinforce the front edge with a piece of angled steel bracket (this will still sag if unsupported) 3) Truss rods...This is my favorite - I've never seen it actually done, but this is how the railroads first solved the problem. Install a series of overlapping truss rods parallel to the front edge of the deck. These would support it end to end. Truss rods may also be used to support front to back and therefor use thinner joists. Deck construction also becomes very importatn and lighter is better! Faom, foam, foam... BTW Jerry, HTH are you going to reach the back of a 40" deep deck? The ABSOLUTE MAX that seems to come up in the LDSIG is 24-28". I mean, I've met you and it didn't seem like it was 40" from you fingers to your arm pit! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:17:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Logansport, Muncie, and Richmond I wrote: BTW, I'm now counting NINE routes that fed into Logansport, In a message dated 11/12/98 10:44:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > I stopped at 7, recognizing that ANOKA was already not really Logansport, > you know. > Frankfort and Converse are both a stretch, in my mind. No real argument here. I was just thinking about Logansport's strategic significance to the Panhandle. Everything seemed to funnel in here from all directions. Really don't understand whether LogansPORT :^) was originally such a traffic magnet because of being at the head of Wabash River navigation, or what. I can live with a 7-count . > Tell me about that ancient Muncie line. Why is it part of PRR? Wish I knew anything concrete. One thing I know for sure is that back when the gas fields at Muncie were new, it was an 800-pound gorilla for traffic. The glassmaking generated carloads of business for the LE&W (see Rehor's Nickel Plate book), and the Big Four and C&O of Indiana were the other through lines at Muncie. Whatever the draw, before 1941 this line was abandoned except for a stub at the Muncie end, going north to Matthews. This stub was accessed over Big Four trackage rights from the Richmond Branch at Anderson. Now even the stub is gone. > Also, about Richmond being switched by Conrail from Muncie? What gives? A matter of access. There's so little Conrail predecessor trackage left in the area, CR has to come down from the Bee Line (Big Four). They'd use retained trackage rights on the ex-PRR Richmond Branch all the way, but the NS has abandoned some Richmond Branch mileage at the Anderson end. So (I believe), NS had to grant them trackage rights on the ex-LE&W branch from Muncie to New Castle, so CR could exercise their ex-PRR trackage rights New Castle to Richmond. Byzantine, isn't it? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:26:37 -0600 > Jerry said: > >> The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also > >> about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I > want > >> to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view > blocks > >> along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall > and > >> both ends, just like the middle level. > > > Roger replied: This is the part that bothers me, Jerry, the 4 foot > distance. > > I am sure that you could use a sutble angled support back > > in the back, but 4 feet is a looonnng way to expect anything > > to hold up for very long without sags. I think that you > > would do better with less distance.... say 30 inches or even 36 > > inches. > And Bruce said: > I second the motion...and here are a few other solutions from the Layout > Design SIG of the NMRA (which BTW has an excellent chat list with the likes Although Roger and Bruce make excellent points about the difficulty of reaching to the rear of a 4' deep second level, no one has mentioned that a second level 4' deep directly over a 4' deep first level will result in difficulty in viewing the first level, it will be like looking into a box! Jerry, if you can set back the second level somewhat (the more the better), you will showcase your first level much more. On the second level model only one half of the passenger station and tracks and put a mirror as a backdrop so it looks twice as big. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Request for info on E&P Branch Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:10:21 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE0EED.D2D401A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am currently writing a book on the Erie and Pittsburgh Railroad, = subsequently PRR's E&P Branch. Looking for pictures as follows: 1. PRR trains, stations and other facilities on E&P branch, including = Mahoningtown, PA (on the PY&A) and Erie, PA on both the E&P and P&E = (Philadelphia and Erie). 2. EL trains on their Sharon,PA (Ferrona Yard)) to New Castle, PA = branch. 3. P&LE trains on same EL branch, as they had trackage rights. 4. B&LE trains @ PRR/B&LE interchange Shenango, PA. 5. PRR's New Castle wreck train. Book is planned to be 20-25% text (of which 30% is already written) and = 80-75% pictures. Overall will be 150+ pages. Thanx for the assistance. Al ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE0EED.D2D401A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am currently writing a book on the = Erie and=20 Pittsburgh Railroad, subsequently  PRR's E&P Branch. Looking = for=20 pictures as follows:
1. PRR trains, stations and other = facilities on=20 E&P branch, including Mahoningtown, PA (on the PY&A) and Erie, = PA on=20 both the E&P and P&E (Philadelphia and Erie).
2. EL trains on their Sharon,PA = (Ferrona Yard))=20 to New Castle, PA branch.
3. P&LE trains on same EL = branch, as they=20 had trackage rights.
4. B&LE trains @ PRR/B&LE = interchange=20 Shenango, PA.
5. PRR's New Castle wreck = train.
 
Book is planned to be 20-25% text = (of which 30%=20 is already written) and 80-75% pictures. Overall will be 150+=20 pages.
 
Thanx for the assistance.=20 Al
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE0EED.D2D401A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: Plywood Construction Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 10:51:56 -0500 From: Jerry Appending my prior discussion about plywood framing, suspending a top level, etc. I quoted a room 9' wide. Actually, the wall that makes it 9' isn't built yet. But that was the extent of my negotiations with "my other half". If I could keep her out of the basement for a week or so, I suppose I could "err" in my measurements and make it 10'!!! With 10' to work with, I could have: 1.5' access from back, removable backdrops (good photo opps, too) 4.0' layout 3.0' aisle 1.0' return tracks 0.5' negotiable, use where needed The tightest radii on the return curve at the one end would be 24", but the inner two tracks would be freight only. Furthermore, the two passenger tracks wouldn't butt directly against the freight tracks on the one side of the curve, thus creating an even larger radii, probably exceeding 30"...acceptable, especially since the curve will be hidden. The new obstacle is that now there's a 4' by 23' multilevel layout only meeting the walls at its two ends. The lower level can be adequately supported from below. The upper level can be supported by legs on the backside, or from the ceiling, or both. Plywood "T" supports fastened to the studs are now out of the question. Steel rods and truss wires have been suggested. In any case, the "reach" access problem would be resolved under this scenario. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:06:55 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East and West Lines West and East are great subjects for me too, but up here in the Western part of New York State the Pennsy was always a factor and to this day I can see trains running by PRR style signals on the Buffalo Line between Buffalo and Olean. Some folks do need to remember that the PRR extended NORTH of Renovo, would this be considered Lines North ;-) On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/12/98 1:36:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes: > > > Great to hear all the interest in the PRR out there, but how about some > news, > > info,etc for the area New Jersey and New York and the old "stepchild" the > > Long Island Railroad? Still see some old PRR freight cars running around > Long > > Island and in Oak Island yard in NJ. Hope to hear from anyone! > > > > Mike > > Long Island, NY > > > Mike, > > I like your turn of phrase, "all the interest in the PRR out there". As the > X-files keeps reminding us, "the truth is out there somewhere". > > I too would like to see more postings on Lines East, even though my personal > exposure to your end of the Pennsy pretty much stopped at Harrisburg. I did > once get to Jersey City for one of those notorious harbor tours where the NRHS > hijacks a Circle Line boat and spends the day touring rail-marine facilities. > It was outrageous -- we got as far upriver (Passaic or ?,) at DOCK at Newark > Penn Station. > > I apologize to you and all the Lines East folks for the wave of "cornfield > Pennsy" that you are currently enduring. Please bear with us. Remember, in > the East 30 years ago there were enough fan/historians to constitute a > critical mass for gathering and conserving information on the PRR. Sheer > concentrated numbers insured this worked by word of mouth, slide show, mag > articles, books (lots of books), the PRRT&HS, and the Chapters. > > Meanwhile, Lines West, with equal or greater mileage, and its own unique > historical peccadillos, has fans, but we're really spread out. For example, > if I want to talk to another active PRRT&HS member, I drive 120 miles to > Cincinnati or 120 miles to Indianapolis. > > Email and PRR-Talk has made all the difference to connect up Pennsy fans > beyond Pittsburgh. It is enabling us to pick each other's brains, and > conserve the knowledge of folks who were on parts of the railroad long before > we saw them. Please bear with us, because we're bound to slow down. > > One of the things that makes me sad is that I never got to thank the late Jim > Lynch for including western divisions in his Keystone articles on towers and > facilities. An awareness that this kind of info must be preserved and > documented encouraged me to read timetables and take physical plant photos, > even when no train was in sight. > > So let's have more Pennsy, period! BTW, does anybody on the Long Island know > about the BM-60 that Pennsy built for LI and N&W, but apparently never used > itself? What LI numbers did they run under? Was the RPO compartment 15 foot > or 30 foot? How late were they used? > > Best wishes, > Rick Tipton > Salivating Pennsy Fan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 12:04:59 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/13/98 6:47 AM, Roger P. Hensley (rhensley@ecicnet.org) wrote: > I like the idea Jerry. I just looked at your page and the > sketch. I think that what you want is doable, but I'm not > sure that you have hit the answer yet. :-) Thanks. > > Consider moving things around. Does it have to be where you > are planning? Can it be on the other level? Is this the best use > of space and track? The two levels could be swapped. However, the lower level will only have the benefit of the 4' by 23' table with the 1' wide return. The upper level will have the same, plus the area over the helix. My thought was to place the passenger station on the upper level so the REA and freight facilities south/east of the station would extend over the helix (after making a non-prototypical 90-degree turn). > > I presume that you have made drawings or sketches? If not, > do it. If you don't want to use the computer, then get some > graph paper and pencils. Draw it out and then move the pieces > and parts around to see if they'd work elsewhere. You wanna > put the passenger station on top of the helix? I have a scale map of the passenger station. I figured out the conversion factors and, surprisingly, the full station area (not inclusive of REA or beyond HARRIS) fits into about 25'. That's only 2' longer than I have. Surely I can fudge! May involve some custom turnouts, etc., but should be doable. As for the loco facility: Need to use 90' turntable and roundhouse to keep the table down to 4' wide. As for length, the prototype had a very long arrive/depart yard. If I need to scale things down, this is the place to shorten. Craig Bowman (on this list) has scale plans for the loco facility that I plan to scan. The neat thing about these plans is that I can use PhotoShop to create an object the length of my modeling area and move it around the scanned plans and see what will fit and what won't. For instance, my 23' available space translates to 2001' in HO. The plans are 200' to the inch. Do the math and I can include what fits on 10" of the plan. Works for me! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:47:58 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 09:27:17 -0500 > From: Jerry > To: "PRR-Talk" > I "want" to do the Harrisburg train station. Ten passenger tracks plus > two freight tracks times 2" each = 24". Add to that five 4"+/- wide > station platforms adds another 20". Add the extra 2" for the front > clearance and we're up to 46". *** set out *** > I'm open to suggestions. Suppose I could forgo the loco terminal and only > do one level, but that would be a great loss. The passenger station will > be the focal point, as all kinds of moves are made between trains and > with the REA. Not to mention loco moves. I like the idea Jerry. I just looked at your page and the sketch. I think that what you want is doable, but I'm not sure that you have hit the answer yet. :-) As an aside, a friend of mine did a large passenger terminal in HO complete with necessary switching, REA and a large nearby freight yards. Very impressive even with selective compression! The layout is gone now, but the memory of the passenger operation lingers on. Consider moving things around. Does it have to be where you are planning? Can it be on the other level? Is this the best use of space and track? I presume that you have made drawings or sketches? If not, do it. If you don't want to use the computer, then get some graph paper and pencils. Draw it out and then move the pieces and parts around to see if they'd work elsewhere. You wanna put the passenger station on top of the helix? Just some thoughts. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:39:10 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > From: "Laird, Bill" > To: "'PRR-Talk@dsop.com'" > Subject: RE: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:26:37 -0600 > Although Roger and Bruce make excellent points about the difficulty > of reaching to the rear of a 4' deep second level, no one has mentioned that > a second level 4' deep directly over a 4' deep first level will result in > difficulty in viewing the first level, it will be like looking into a box! > Jerry, if you can set back the second level somewhat (the more the better), > you will showcase your first level much more. On the second level model > only one half of the passenger station and tracks and put a mirror as a > backdrop so it looks twice as big. > > Bill Laird Mirrors can work well as long as you don't see yourself in them. I use one on my HO railroad. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:16:59 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Famous BM60 --------------B441805CFC82E11913336083 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: According to The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (January 1952) The PRR had 6 cars that would almost meet the drawing specifications as outlined by Barry below. The Register does not list the PRR car type only the AAR mechanical designation. AAR type MBe (Baggage, Mail, electric lights) Car Numbers - 5403, 5406, 5407, 5412. Baggage section 43 feet, Mail section 15 feet, inside 61, over buffers 64.6. Also listed are the 5438 and 5439 with the same specs. The 1953 Register, still has the 5403, 5407, 5412 & 5439 listed. They are not listed in the 1954 Register. The Norfolk and Western lists car numbers 10 to 18 with the following specs. Baggage 45 ft, Mail 15 ft, Inside 60.1ft and over buffers 64.5 ft. These cars are listed in the '52 to '55 editions. 10 to 12 are listed to '56. 10 and 11 make it to 1960 - they are gone by 1964. The 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia has a picture of number 16 on page 666. The cars where built by the Bethlehem Steel Company with a weight of 104,400. I found no other listing (1952 to 1969) for a 15 foot mail car under N&W. The Long Island Railroad has 2 cars ( numbers 737 and 738)listed in 1952 with 45 ft baggage section and a 15 foot mail section, inside length is 59.9 ft outside is listed at 63.7 ft. These cars are listed through 56. The 737 continues till the '60 issue. It isn't listed in '64 (my next Register ). In 1956, a 717 is listed with a 60 inside length - and an electric generator. This car is not listed in 1960. Starting in the 1960 Register is car number 7738. This car is originally listed as a baggage express car. It is joined by car number 7737 in 1964 - this car is listed as a mail baggage with a mail section of 15' and a baggage section of 43 feet, overall length is 63' 7". By '66 the 7737 is gone and the 7738 is now a MB classification and the only mail car left. It is still there in my last issue - 1969. Sorry I don't have that much on the Long Island - so I don't have a picture reference. The Register listed the PRR cars (5403, 5406, 5407, 5412 ) as steel cars. However, In "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" (Wayner Publications - no date or copyright notice - page 2 has a picture of 5403. It looks to me to be a wooden combine, complete with 6 wheel trucks and truss rods. The PRR listed one other class with a 15 foot mail section and a 43 foot baggage section overall length of 64' 6", AAR designation ETe or Electric Trailer - PRR numbers 5416 to 5419. These cars make it to the 1964 edition. A picture of 5416 is on page 229 of Paul Carleton's "Under Pennsy Wires". There is also one mixed in with other MP sorts on page 228. Sorry but this car looks very much like its MP54 sisters. The next car up would be a MBe with a 56 foot baggage section and a 15 foot mail section. Overall length on this car is 74'10" making it a BM70 something. Given the above information: did the PRR ever have a steel BM60 with a 15 foot mail section? are the electric cars going to be the BM60's? is the Long Island #7738 the missing link? picture proof? is three fun hours of research enough - for tonight maybe? cos BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > Since mention of the elusive BM60 has again been made, I'll repost the > somewhat limited info from Wayner's Pennsy Car Plans. On page 6 of this 1969 > publication is a drawing of this car, but surprisingly (maybe) no car numbers > are shown. What is shown is a 15'-1" RPO section and a 44'-8' baggage section. > 30" rpo door on each side and a 6'-0" baggage door centered ten feet off > center of the car. 8ft wheelbase four wheel trucks on 44ft spacing.Mailcase is > built against bulkhead that divides the car. No gold star status in this > baggage section. Wt 105,500 ;capy baggage end 25,000 pounds. Any chance the > Carstens Long Island book has a photo of this car, if it was indeed the type > they used? Any chance this was used on a Pennsy secondary route somewhere? No > date shown, but the B60-type cars were built way before the N&W purchase dates > folks have mentioned on this list. I have to wonder if such a car was ever > used on something like a PRSL run, or the BEL-Del or possibly one of the > rather far-reaching Pittsburgh commuter runs, maybe back in the 20's or 30's? > If anyone ever turns up a postal service contract for a 15 ft RPO, we may be > on to something. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------B441805CFC82E11913336083 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:
According to The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment  (January 1952)
The PRR had 6 cars that would  almost meet the drawing specifications as outlined by Barry below.   The Register does not list the PRR car type only the AAR mechanical designation.

AAR type MBe (Baggage, Mail, electric lights) Car Numbers - 5403, 5406, 5407, 5412.  Baggage section 43 feet, Mail section 15 feet, inside 61, over buffers 64.6.
Also listed are the 5438 and 5439 with the same specs.
The 1953 Register, still has the 5403, 5407, 5412 & 5439 listed.
They are not listed in the 1954 Register.

The Norfolk and Western lists car numbers 10 to 18 with the following specs.
Baggage 45 ft, Mail 15 ft, Inside 60.1ft and over buffers 64.5 ft. These cars are listed in the '52  to  '55 editions.  10 to 12 are listed to '56.  10 and 11 make it to 1960 - they are gone by 1964.  The 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia has a picture of number 16 on page 666.  The cars where built by the Bethlehem Steel Company with a weight of 104,400.  I found no other listing (1952 to 1969) for a 15 foot mail car under N&W.

The Long Island Railroad has 2 cars ( numbers 737 and 738)listed in 1952 with 45 ft baggage section and a 15 foot mail section, inside length is 59.9 ft outside is listed at 63.7 ft.  These cars are listed through 56. The 737 continues till the '60 issue.  It isn't listed in '64 (my next Register ).  In 1956, a 717 is listed with a 60 inside length - and an electric generator.  This car is not listed in 1960.  Starting in the 1960 Register is car number 7738.  This car is originally listed as a baggage express car.  It is joined by car number 7737 in 1964 - this car is listed as a mail baggage with a mail section of 15' and a baggage section of 43 feet, overall length is 63' 7".
By '66 the 7737 is gone and the 7738 is now a MB classification and the only mail car left.  It is still there in my last issue - 1969.  Sorry I don't have that much on the Long Island - so I don't have a picture reference.

The Register listed the PRR cars (5403, 5406, 5407, 5412 ) as steel cars.  However, In "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" (Wayner Publications - no date or copyright notice - page 2 has a picture of 5403.  It looks to me to be a wooden combine, complete with 6 wheel trucks and truss rods.  The PRR listed one other class with a 15 foot mail section and a 43 foot baggage section overall length of 64' 6", AAR designation ETe or Electric Trailer - PRR numbers 5416 to 5419.  These cars make it to the 1964 edition.   A picture of 5416 is on page 229 of Paul Carleton's "Under Pennsy Wires".   There is also one mixed in with other MP sorts on page 228.  Sorry but this car looks very much like its MP54 sisters.
The next car up would be a MBe with a 56 foot baggage section and a 15 foot mail section.  Overall length on this car is 74'10" making it a BM70 something.

Given the above information:
    did the PRR ever have a steel BM60 with a 15 foot mail section?
    are the electric cars going to be the BM60's?
    is the Long Island #7738 the missing link? picture proof?
    is three fun hours of research enough - for tonight maybe?

cos
 

BPX29@aol.com wrote:

Folks,
Since mention of the elusive BM60 has again been made, I'll repost the
somewhat limited info from Wayner's Pennsy Car Plans. On page 6 of this 1969
publication is a drawing of this car, but surprisingly (maybe) no car numbers
are shown. What is shown is a 15'-1" RPO section and a 44'-8' baggage section.
30" rpo door on each side and a 6'-0" baggage door centered ten feet off
center of the car. 8ft wheelbase four wheel trucks on 44ft spacing.Mailcase is
built against bulkhead that divides the car. No gold star status in this
baggage section. Wt 105,500 ;capy baggage end 25,000 pounds.  Any chance the
Carstens Long Island book has a photo of this car, if it was indeed the type
they used? Any chance this was used on a Pennsy secondary route somewhere? No
date shown, but the B60-type cars were built way before the N&W purchase dates
folks have mentioned on this list. I have to wonder if such a car was ever
used on something like a PRSL run, or the BEL-Del or possibly one of the
rather far-reaching Pittsburgh commuter runs, maybe back in the 20's or 30's?
If anyone ever turns up a postal service contract for a 15 ft RPO, we may be
on to something.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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  --------------B441805CFC82E11913336083-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:40:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Another I-1 question From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) This isn't much help, but once upon a time you could get parts from PFM. Maybe you still can - write to them to find out. They would sell extra parts, and yes, the I1 valve gear hanger was one of them. I don't think any of the current crop of importers do it, although there is certainly is a market for things like that. Yes, I have one, and it's one less than I need, so if you talk somebody into making copies of yours, let me know. Pat Egan (no web access) On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:18:20 -0600 (CST) "Donald E. Harper, Jr." writes: >On all the I-1 engine photos I've seen, except the photo of the first >I-1 in the >Cyclopedia, the the bracket on which the reverse link is mounted is >almost >semi-circular. No other class of engine seems to have had that style. > Anyone >know why only the I-1? > >I did not like the Bowser mechanism as purchased - it looks like the >Cyclopedia >photo mentioned above - so I've spent a lot of time making >measurements and a >pattern, and finally have produced a bracket that looks about right. >Then I got >to wondering -- do any of the commercial outfits make such a bracket >integrated >into the boiler support that could replace Bowser's part? > >Don Harper >Texas A&M Marine Lab >5007 Avenue U >Galveston, TX 77551-5926 >409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 >harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:58:30 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] railroaders on Amtrak Ok...this is a little off topic...but i thought some of you would like to know. I mentioned the other night that my dad had said that the railroaders that Amtrak uses were unsafe....I did know how much.... He told me tonight that these cars (trailers) have NO hand brakes. So that means that if one of them has to be cut out of a train...and lets say that the air leaks off of the car....there will be no brakes on it. Couple that with the fact that some of the newer guys working the NEC don't have enough training for them....well put another way.... How do YOU spell accident? Til Later Hank M. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Mind your inputs and outputs Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:38:36 -0500 (EST) I've worked on a graphical schedule for Logansport, just for starters. I am planning on ultimately similarly graphing out other cities/yards. Enjoy. The graph is at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/logansport_schedule.gif -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:28:39 -0500 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] railroaders on Amtrak I always thought that the air was applied to RELEASE the brakes. The hand brakes could be used to manually release/apply the brakes and move a car even if it wasn't attached to a source of air (like an engine). However, I could be wrong about this. Dale bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Ok...this is a little off topic...but i thought some of you would like to > know. I mentioned the other night that my dad had said that the railroaders > that Amtrak uses were unsafe....I did know how much.... > He told me tonight that these cars (trailers) have NO hand brakes. > So that means that if one of them has to be cut out of a train...and > lets say that the air leaks off of the car....there will be no brakes > on it. Couple that with the fact that some of the newer guys working the > NEC don't have enough training for them....well put another way.... > How do YOU spell accident? > > Til Later > Hank M. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:33:20 EST Subject: [PRR] 1999 PRRT&HS CONVENTION Folks, Does anyone recall offhand what the dates of next year's convention are going to be?I seem to recall that the dates have been changed from the normal May 1st to late August. The location it seems is going to be Altoona. One of my complaints has always been that May date (can't do much with the kids while school's still going), and the fact that nearly all the sites are on the east end of the Pennsy map.(sorry, guess that's two complaints). I know that once in a while a convention is set west of Pittsburgh, but not very often. Another gripe is that the convention hotel is usually sold out to certain folks before the rest of us find out what hotel they're using.(Recall Pittsburgh a couple years ago?). This might not be so serious if you're driving, but if you take Amtrak this can be a major pain. At Pittsburgh the hotels were quite a distance apart. I'm halfway thinking of having the family visit the inlaws in Sandusky and taking Amtrak's new "day" train from there to the convention in Altoona, but I better get a few things lined up. But maybe for once Amtrak has done something in my favor, even if the museam is taking a beating. Talk to ya's later folks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Another I-1 question Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:22:51 -0500 In regards to PFM brass parts, I believe that Bowser has acquired the rights to custom parts made for the various importers. I believe that their catalog features several pages of custom brass parts. Hope this helps. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com http://www.onerrave.com Over 7000 in stock items & the Railroad Telegraph -----Original Message----- From: Patrick M Egan To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, November 14, 1998 3:25 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Another I-1 question >This isn't much help, but once upon a time you could get parts from PFM. >Maybe you still can - write to them to find out. They would sell extra >parts, and yes, the I1 valve gear hanger was one of them. I don't think >any of the current crop of importers do it, although there is certainly >is a market for things like that. > >Yes, I have one, and it's one less than I need, so if you talk somebody >into making copies of yours, let me know. >Pat Egan >(no web access) > >On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:18:20 -0600 (CST) "Donald E. Harper, Jr." > writes: >>On all the I-1 engine photos I've seen, except the photo of the first >>I-1 in the >>Cyclopedia, the the bracket on which the reverse link is mounted is >>almost >>semi-circular. No other class of engine seems to have had that style. >> Anyone >>know why only the I-1? >> >>I did not like the Bowser mechanism as purchased - it looks like the >>Cyclopedia >>photo mentioned above - so I've spent a lot of time making >>measurements and a >>pattern, and finally have produced a bracket that looks about right. >>Then I got >>to wondering -- do any of the commercial outfits make such a bracket >>integrated >>into the boiler support that could replace Bowser's part? >> >>Don Harper >>Texas A&M Marine Lab >>5007 Avenue U >>Galveston, TX 77551-5926 >>409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 >>harperd@tamug.tamu.edu >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >>products, specializing in the PRR. See >>http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >>"listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:40:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 PRRT&HS CONVENTION ***Hi, Barry & list...I have August 26-27-28 circled ( circle Keystone ??) on my calendar. Friday afternoon should be my afternoon PRRSignals Show & Tell....Bill** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak restrictions, was Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:44:31 EST The below is not true. No such restriction is in the current Northeast TT and I frequently use a midday Amtrak run from NYP to Stamford to visit a client.[Rather than go crosstown to GCT for Metro North.] Amtk's computer just quoted me $11.00 for Stamford=>Bridgeport; $22.00 for NYP=>Stamford and for $23.00 NYP=>Bridgeport. Before Amtrak consolidated at NYP there was an agreement not to haul locals into GCT but this does not apply to NYP. There is an agreement not to haul locals between Yonkers, Poughkeepsie and Croton Harmon on Empire service trains however they may haul between these stations and NYP. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:33:35 -0800 John Cooper writes: >I beleive they do. > >What you cannot do, however, is ride only between New Haven and New >York on >Amtrak. As part of trackage rights over the Metro North Commuter >Railroad >(New Rochelle to New Haven), Amtrak agreed not compete for customers. >So if >you really want to travel Amtrak between New York, Stamford, >Bridgeport, or >New Haven, you must buy a ticket one station outside of that range, >either >to Newark or Old Saybrook CT. > >John > >> ---------- >> Jerry wrote: >> >> > ...... Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at >Altoona >> > (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short >trips on >> their >> > "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they >can >> > get............... >> >> >> >> >> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >> products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at >http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:22:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] railroaders on Amtrak In a message dated 11/14/98 8:41:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, DDembinski@Centuryinter.net writes: << I always thought that the air was applied to RELEASE the brakes.>> after bubbles@visi.net wrote: about Amtrak Railroaders: > He told me tonight that these cars (trailers) have NO hand brakes. > So that means that if one of them has to be cut out of a train...and > lets say that the air leaks off of the car....there will be no brakes > on it. It depends where the air leaks from. Air leaking from the airline would reduce the pressure there, and the valve would open allowing air to flow from the air tank to the cylinder, thus setting the brakes. On the other hand, if the _air tank_ had the leak, there would be no force to apply the brakes. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:22:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 PRRT&HS CONVENTION From: locoshop@juno.com Yes, this year's convention is the last weekend of August and it is in Altoona. The other items I do not know about. I agree that the early may date is a bummer because the kids are still in school, but so is the late August date. Out here kids start school late August and end mid to late May depending on how many snow days they have had that year, so neither works for myself in Omaha, Nebraska, unfortunately because I would love to come to the Altoona convention (grew up in Bedford, PA so it is close to the old home area). On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:33:20 EST BPX29@aol.com writes: >Folks, >Does anyone recall offhand what the dates of next year's convention >are going >to be?I seem to recall that the dates have been changed from the >normal May >1st to late August. The location it seems is going to be Altoona. >One of my complaints has always been that May date (can't do much with >the >kids while school's still going), and the fact that nearly all the >sites are >on the east end of the Pennsy map.(sorry, guess that's two >complaints). I know >that once in a while a convention is set west of Pittsburgh, but not >very >often. Another gripe is that the convention hotel is usually sold out >to >certain folks before the rest of us find out what hotel they're >using.(Recall >Pittsburgh a couple years ago?). This might not be so serious if >you're >driving, but if you take Amtrak this can be a major pain. At >Pittsburgh the >hotels were quite a distance apart. I'm halfway thinking of having the >family >visit the inlaws in Sandusky and taking Amtrak's new "day" train from >there to >the convention in Altoona, but I better get a few things lined up. But >maybe >for once Amtrak has done something in my favor, even if the museam is >taking a >beating. Talk to ya's later folks, >Barry Peltier Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:13:28 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS CONVENTION Bill, Alan and Jeremy, Thanks for the info. That's about a week later than I was thinking, but maybe things will time out. Worries enough for today, I'd guess, without getting into next summer. Thamks again for the always helpful assistance. Barry Pelter ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 20:00:55 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: some weekend pix, thanks, etc... ****First, THANKS to Steve Long for generously providing all of that neat ( although Lines West ...hahhahaha) Intlkg Stuff...!!! Steve, Pilot John sez 'hello and Thanks' from Miami, we just did another hour of signal skool.....dialogs during his layover. Pix fer the weekend: http://members.aol.com/prrsignals/prrrsprj.jpg That one just for my Pittsburg Pals....anbd Alco pals....and commuter service pals... And, for old pal Frank Garon, and any other CNJ and/or old Station fans, check this: http://members.aol.com//prrsignals/CNJTOMSj.jpg AND, to see a picture of a 'contented CNJ (former PRR) operator..(Mech Plant).... http://members.aol.com/prrsignals/cnjrklvj.jpg If everyone saw the PRR Dark Green 5 stripe E unit shot ( /prrstluj.jpg), I will erase it fer new stuff coming.....Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] FRM Milepost Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:48:10 -0600 Jerry-Latest Friends of the Railroad Museum magazine Milepost, says September but just came yesterday, has interesting tour of Harrisburg in 1948 by Bert Pennypacker. Good overview of what went at station, engine facilities, etc. More pictures would have been nice, but it is interesting reading. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:09:46 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] re: roadrailers on Amtrak >Ok...this is a little off topic...but i thought some of you would like to > know. I mentioned the other night that my dad had said that the railroaders > that Amtrak uses were unsafe....I did know how much.... > He told me tonight that these cars (trailers) have NO hand brakes. > So that means that if one of them has to be cut out of a train...and > lets say that the air leaks off of the car....there will be no brakes > on it. Couple that with the fact that some of the newer guys working the > NEC don't have enough training for them....well put another way.... > How do YOU spell accident? > > > Til Later > Hank M. ===== Well check me on this, but wouldn't the fifth wheel sticking down between the ties be a pretty effective brake? ;-) Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] FRM Milepost Date: Sun, 15 Nov 98 09:41:38 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/14/98 10:48 PM, Stephen Hoxie (steveh@dotstar.net) wrote: >Jerry-Latest Friends of the Railroad Museum magazine Milepost, says >September but just came yesterday, has interesting tour of Harrisburg in >1948 by Bert Pennypacker. Good overview of what went at station, engine >facilities, etc. More pictures would have been nice, but it is interesting >reading. Yes, I receieved mine and commented on it about two weeks ago. The cover photo caption indicates the building behind the switcher is the freight house. I disagree. Look at the roof lines. I beleive it is the roundhouse that existed south of the station until the late teens or perhaps 1920s. The freight house is off in the distance, behind the roundhouse. I think there was another bit of errata within the article, regarding a date, but off hand I forget what it was. Altogether, though, a very informative article. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:29:10 EST Subject: [PRR] 1999 PRRT&HS CONVENTION Can't win on dates. Previously, the convention was too close to my April fishing vacation. Now it is too close to the NMRA convention. I really want to attend a PRRT&HS convention some day, but don't want to give up the other two! Bob (wish I could get to retirement without getting older) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:01:03 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] Re: Brass locomotive details Hi, If you are looking for PFM parts from earlier run model imports, check with PFM themselves in Washington. They do have parts (and gearboxes) for older models. They are quite helpful. They advertise in MR classified. Do an MRIA.com search for an address if you can't find the ad. Also, Trackside Specialties in Mannheim, PA (also used to advertise in MR or RMC) carries parts from older brass models (Westside, etc.). I have gotten missing boiler weights from them and they also stock certain driver sets. Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:10:39 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] Altoona Shops Book. Hi All, I'm buying the following book by e-mail and was wondering if anyone is familiar with it: PRR Altoona Machine Shops#list 1866-1904 Construct List Lovell LibrAmerTransportation Paperback Also will be receiving "Pennsy Steam: A Second Look-Carleton" a book I've seen mentioned on the list a couple of times, favorably, as I recall. I'd be glad to post a review of the first book if no one is familiar with it. Thanks, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:00:41 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] Loco/Tender Book; Loco Question. Hi All, I recently purchased another book that I haven't seen mentioned on the list and was wondering if there is interest in it. I don't want to sell it but would be glad to relay info if it contains anything anyone is interested in. It is titled: "Descriptive List of Locomotives and Tenders-The Pennsylvania Railroad (And Long Island Railroad)" Subtitled: "Steam-Electric-Diesel Electric and Gasoline-Electric Locomotives" Date of original-1948 (This copy is a reprint published by Owen Davies-Bookseller, Copyright 1972) It's chock full of textual info, no pics to speak of. For example for steam locos it gives: Classification Wheel Arrangement Wheel Diameters Journal, Engine Truck " , Drivers " , Trailer Truck Wheel Base, Driver " " , Engine " " , Engine and Tender Height, Deck Plate " , Bottom of Drawbar Pocket Cylinder Spread " Dimensions Steam Port Dimensions Valve Travel " Lap " Type " Gear Type Steam Pressure Boiler Type " Diameter, Minimum Internal Flues and Tubes, Number " " " , O. Diameter " Length between Sheets " Fire Area Heating Surface, Ext. Flues " " , Int. Superheater " " , Firebox " " , Total Grate Dimensions " Area Wt. on Rail, Engine Truck " " " , 1st Drivers " " " , 2nd Drivers " " " , 3rd Drivers " " " , 4th Drivers " " " , 5th Drivers " " " , 6th Drivers " " " , 7th Drivers " " " , 8th Drivers " " " , All Drivers " " " , Trailer Truck Wt. of Engine, Working Order " " " , Empty Starting Tractive Force, Main Engine " " " , Booster " " " , Total Factor of Adhesion, Main Engine Remarks Class of Tender Has different info for diesels, electrics, etc., but just as much depth. Diesels, Elctrics, Etc... extant up to 1948 covered. Now a question: I've been using this book to try to equate the load a 2-8-0 could haul compared to what 1 F-unit or 1 GP9 could haul. I get as far as finding that the Starting Tractive Effort for an H10s is 53197 w/ Factor of Adhesion of 4.27 and the Starting Tractive Effort for an F "ABBA" set is 232500 w/ Factor of Adhesion of 25%. Does anyone know how to figure the rating for 1 F unit? Dividing the STE by 4 to give a per unit rating of 58125 is logical enough, I think, but how do I figure in the difference in Factors of Adhesion? I hope this question is appropriate for this list. Thanks in advance, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 20:31:04 -0500 Subject: [PRR] I1 Question From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) The Valve Gear Hanger used on PFM I1s's was not on the list of custom PFM / Cal-Scale / Associated Brass parts offered by Bowser. It perhaps was a Japanese made part, or the part could not be offered for some good reason. It is wishful thinking, but considering the tremendous job Bowser has done upgrading that locomotive, you'd think they would have upgraded that rather noticable and destinctive part just as they have for the rest of the engine. Of course if someone would come up with a nice pattern, it could be offered in the aftermarket, perhaps along with some other detail goodies, like a detailed valve gear link, and perhaps a nice looking crank, but I guess that's just dreaming. Pat Egan ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 22:52:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Shops Book. The PRR Altoona Machine Shops Construction Number List 1866-1904 book was given "free" to each attendee of the PRR T&HS convention of a few years ago. I was able to attend that year and have one. The 1st section begins with construction number 1, a 4-4-0 having road number 142, and continues with construction number 2, consecutively thru to the last locomotive built at the Altoona Machine Shops in Jan 1904, construction number 2289, a class B4a. Of course Juniata took over production, but this book only covers "Altoona". This first section also shows renumberings and dispositions, when known. The 2nd section starts with original road number 1, and continues consecutively with original road number 2, etc while showing any road number renumberings, and cross referencing the construction number. This section starts with the PRR, then goes to the PRR owned and leased lines. The 3rd section lists later road numbers cross referenced to the construction numbers similar to the 2nd section. There are a few pictures, but the book is mostly the numbers lists. Hoping this helps, Dennis Sautters ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: Plywood Construction THANKS Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 10:02:28 -0500 From: Jerry I want to thank all who responded to my query about plywood framing. It was very helpful. I also want to thank the rest of the list for bearing with a TAN subject that lasted longer than expected. In summary: I will widen my room to 9'6" (can't squeek 10). That will allow 18" of access behind the layout (with removable backdrops) to solve the access problem. The two levels will then be 48" wide. There will be a 36" viewing/operating aisle. Then 12" of return tracks. I have updated by "givens & druthers" page at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html As for support: Both ends of the layout will be anchored to the end walls. A freestanding (but attached to the floor) structure will support the staging hard and lower level on all sides. This structure may be as heavy as 4x4's. The vertical supports on the backside of the layout will extend to the ceiling for stability and to support the upper level directly. The front of the upper level will be supported by any or several of the following: cables from the ceiling, truss cable underneath the front edge framing, or metal posts from the lower level. There may be wood supports supporting the upper level during construction when it needs to support my weight on a regular basis. My helix area will be 8' square, with a fiddle/reverted loop on the lowest level and room for two operators within. The grade on the helix will be 3% or so, but I've got mostly P2K power which will almost always be double-headed so that shouldn't be a problem. Again, thanks for all the help and suggestions. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:43:36 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: [PRR] Stages of a model railroader Greetings, After reading Jerry's question on building a layout I decided this post might lend a bit of humor. Please refer to item 6. My apologies to all..... 1. Newbie-can be recognized by their e-mails which say" Am thinking about getting my youngster interested in model railroading". 2. Newbie Phase 1 can be recognized by e-mails which say "Can anyone help with an obscure 0-5-0 diesel that doesn't run, which they bought from a neighbor. 3. Newbie Phase 2 can be recognized by e-mails which say "What is the best way of getting cat hair and rug fuzz out of the engines mechanism's". 4. Newbie Phase 3 e-mail now reads "What type equipment should I buy? 5. Neophyte Phase 1 e-mail says "Haven't decided on a scale, what is recommended?". 6. Neophyte Phase 2 e-mail says "Would like to model the entire Pennsylvania Railroad, can this be done in a 4x8 space?". 7. Neophyte Phase 3 Sulks for a year or so while the stings from the e-mail answers heals. 8. Beginner Phase 1 goes to his local hobby shop, asks some intellegent questions, owner cheerfully answers, beginner says he will return. 9. Beginner Phase 2 back to the talk lists, e-mail "Where can I buy stuff cheaper than my local hobby dealer?". 10. Beginner Phase 3 finds a local club and attends a few sessions, can't believe these fellows spend all that money on their hobbies. But is now firmly hooked on the hobby. 11. Club member Phase 1 buys a few kits and puts them together, subscribes to all the model railroading magazines. Builds a few kits, takes them to the club, experts there show him how to improve the models. After reading all the mags he had to rush the completion of the models for the monthly meet. 12. Wavering club member Phase 1 After several attempts at upgrading his models decides he just doesn't have the proper tools. 13. Modeler Phase 1 back to the talk lists, e-mail "What type tools are recommended to do advance modeling?". 14. Modeler Phase 2 Buys the complete complement of modeling tools, sets out to do some serious modeling. Builds a few kits, still not up to the contest quality his club members tell him he is capable of. 15. Modeler Phase 3 Still having problems with producing models which he feels are within his capabilities, if only he had some better tools. 16. Advance modeler Phase 1 Finally has a model which wins a prize at the local club. 17. Advance Modeler Phase 2 Wins a prize at the regional meet. 18. Advance Modeler Phase 3 Inserts ads in regional publication and on Deja News wanting to buy a Precision Milling Machine, Lathe and house with a large basement. 19. Grandpa Phase 1 Kids say "Can we run the trains?". Horrified he heads to Toys-R-Us and buys some over the rug equipment. 20. Grandpa Phase 2 His widow has a hell of an estate sale saying to herself "I didn't know he had all of this stuff" With the proceeds she buys herself a piece of jewelery she saw on "Home Shopping". This story is of course much longer than what I have committed to type. I have left out the brass stage, changing scales, job transfers etc..... There are some who don't follow this course of events and simply have fun with their model railroading....... HOSAM HO custom painted models by SAM Franklin, Va. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:56:03 EST Subject: [PRR] DR-6-4-20 HELP Hi All, Is anyone familiar with a business (person) with the expertise to build up Miracle Castings DR-6-4-20. The picture in the Dec. MR makes me drool but I am afraid the workmanship is above my capabilities. I would like to get in the lineup for at least a A-B-A set. Thanks for your usual helpful comments, Jerry S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stages of a model railroader Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:52:03 -0500 Please don't leave out any of the phases because I'm sure I'm somewhere in brass stage 2. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] DR-6-4-20 HELP Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 12:34:32 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/16/98 11:56 AM, ARRJERRY@aol.com (ARRJERRY@aol.com) wrote: >Is anyone familiar with a business (person) with the expertise to build up >Miracle Castings DR-6-4-20. The picture in the Dec. MR makes me drool but I >am afraid the workmanship is above my capabilities. >I would like to get in the lineup for at least a A-B-A set. Jerry: I consider myself an "aspiring" advanced modeler. I probably have similar skills as you. I have an MC A unit (another A and a B on the way) and it's not as bad as you'd think. There are actually very few parts involved in getting the unit operational. Using an air brush (or aerosol) the Tuscan paint job is a breeze. Even the trainphones aren't that difficult. What'll get you is the decalling. Even I haven't attempted this yet. It is the decaling that makes or breaks the final products. When you're ready, get in touch with me ("Merchandise Service") to order the shells. Remember, they're on special through Nov. 30th. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Date: Mon, 16 Nov 98 14:46:00 -0500 From: Jerry It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) Miracle Castings has filled a void for us "less than brass" in their BP20 (Passenger Shark) release. The Proto 2000 GP7, though slightly behind schedule, is due any day now. I know that many of us desire the BP20 (Centipede). I'd like to know what other diesels (P2K quality) are desired out there. Speak up! Allow me to lead: Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) As for steam, at a price point below brass (comparable to Bowser), what do we want? My votes: K5 Streamlined K4 What about electrics? My votes: P5 boxcab MP54 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stages of a model railroader Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:06:29 PST some of us are into structures. We've entered the TERMINAL stage. Get it? Sorry. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:24:41 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > Allow me to lead: > Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) Do a slice-n-dice with a VO1000 (or wait and see if Stewart does) > FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) Would be nice. I'd settle for someone picking up the Novatech molds. I'd really like to see useful H-16-44 and H-20-44. > P5 boxcab > MP54 These would be cool. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:35:45 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey I'd like to know what other diesels (P2K quality) are desired out there. Speak up! Allow me to lead: Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) My choices for diesel are: FM H20-44 (FS20) Alco RS27 (AF27) I know there are one of two other diesels I would like to see but at the moment can not think of them. Randy Jerry on 11/16/98 01:46:00 PM To: "PRR-Talk" cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) Miracle Castings has filled a void for us "less than brass" in their BP20 (Passenger Shark) release. The Proto 2000 GP7, though slightly behind schedule, is due any day now. I know that many of us desire the BP20 (Centipede). I'd like to know what other diesels (P2K quality) are desired out there. Speak up! Allow me to lead: Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) As for steam, at a price point below brass (comparable to Bowser), what do we want? My votes: K5 Streamlined K4 What about electrics? My votes: P5 boxcab MP54 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:33:22 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey At 02:46 PM 11/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) >As for steam, at a price point below brass (comparable to Bowser), what >do we want? How about a K-2 or K-3 pacific? Since the N&W also had a few K-3 pacifics, the potential appeal for the model would have a wider appeal than just PRR folk. Cary used to have a K-3 boiler once upon a time. No longer. DOUG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:26:57 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey From: staffsgtyork@juno.com I second the RS 27 (Tiger Valley has one with all bearing slow speed drive equivalent to a brass model. Does take craftsman to put together). Also: Lima transfer units, Baldwin S12 with scale hood and correct cab (ya list'nin' Steve Stewart?), and ALCo T6. I am working on getting a resin T6 hood conversion for the Atlas S4. I have finally gotten good photos and measurements. Steam? H9 or 10 Consolidated ready to run as the Bachman Consol was. After they update their K4 with the consolidated's current drive, how about a Mikado? These are probably a good project for Bachman and too big for smaller conversion kits. Food for thought from an empty mind. SGT York ( who will be perturbed to see the desert anytime soon) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:32:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Jerry, Well now that you're a bit of a Reading fan, can we widen the scope a bit? How about; Diesels: HH600/HH900 DL600B Baldwin center cab transfer Erie Builds Steam: Reading P7 atlantic Reading 4-6-2 of any class (G1 preferred) Pennsy B6 shifter The steamers are admitedly farfetched, excepting the 0-6-0, but the diesels have the advantage of being usable for more than one railroad, even if not Pennsy. Who knows, back in the old days I never thought we'd see Baldwin units in plastic. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:25:52 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] DR-6-4-20 and Desired Locomotives Survey Hi folks.... Heres my two cents worth on the survey..... For diesels i would go with the BP20 (centipede) PRR,Seaboard,N de M and the Baldwin Demonstator could be painted and modeled from these. ( And maybe CNJ double ended kitbashes ) FM C-liner For Steam i'd go with a H-6sb or a B-6sb..... Many railroads besides Pennsy owned and bought them second hand L.I., N-P Belt Line, The B & O version of the H-6sb,P-RSL and others had the H-6...and some had the B-6 also...not to mention Washington Terminals B-6 engines.Many predecessor lines had versions of some of them too...might be able to bash a B-6 boiler for a D class. I would have mentioned the K-5...but i built the master for Liberty and i have no idea what joe will do with it...besides...if i really gotta have one...when things get better for me i could always build another. For Electrics....I'd go with..... P-5 boxcab.....besides the P-5 you could maybe bash a O or L class from it. Maybe a B-1 if you were really daring. And the E-44 for later Pennsy modelers....you could also paint them for Penn Central,Conrail,Amtrak....and maybe bash one into a E-33...which you could then paint for New Haven and Virginian. Lots of ways you could go with that one. As for the Shark....Jerry...i could probably do em...but don't want to right now.....I've done EMD E-7 and F-7 units....could'nt be much harder... the stripes are a bear though...especially the five stripe kind. Besides i have some other projects i'm working on myself.... Just finished a Bachmann doodlebug bash job. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:13:00 -0500 Jerry and all Here are my votes Neil >Allow me to lead: > Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) > FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) How about Baldwin Dr-4-4-1500 both fram types A&B units. >As for steam, at a price point below brass (comparable to Bowser), what >do we want? > >My votes: > K5 > Streamlined K4 > >What about electrics? > >My votes: > P5 boxcab I second this > MP54 How about the E2bs E2cs and the E3bs >------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:35:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Diesels: Lima 2,500 hp transfer motor FM H20-44 (not quite an H10/12-44; not quite an H15/16-44/66) Steam Lines West H10 2-8-0 Lines West E-3 4-4-0 Electrics Electric locos? There weren't any stinkin' Electric locomotives on the REAL Pennsylvania Railroad. Tom V. LWF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:55:58 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Howdy All: I like to put in my vote for the Alco Centruy series. Specifically the C636, I know that Stewart is doing the C628, maybe the C636 is already in the works. I too would vote for a Baldwin/Lima/BLH transfer motor. As for electrics: let us start with a boxcab P5a - move on to the modified - than a nice B1. cos Jerry wrote: > It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) > > Miracle Castings has filled a void for us "less than brass" in their BP20 > (Passenger Shark) release. The Proto 2000 GP7, though slightly behind > schedule, is due any day now. > > I know that many of us desire the BP20 (Centipede). > > I'd like to know what other diesels (P2K quality) are desired out there. > Speak up! > > Allow me to lead: > Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) > FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) > > As for steam, at a price point below brass (comparable to Bowser), what > do we want? > > My votes: > K5 > Streamlined K4 > > What about electrics? > > My votes: > P5 boxcab > MP54 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OnTrackHby@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:14:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey <> What about one of the ignored workhorses of the railroad... the E-44??? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:13:19 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Change of address Hi, For those of you who had communicated with me on a one to one bases off of the list, I have a new address... rhensley@anderson.cioe.com rather than the rhensley@ecicnet.org that you may have in your address book. Sorry for the intrusion folks. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:08:05 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Jerry wrote: > It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) > > Miracle Castings has filled a void for us "less than brass" in their > BP20 > (Passenger Shark) release. The Proto 2000 GP7, though slightly behind > schedule, is due any day now. Hi Jerry and all, Ok, tell "Santa" this is what I want in N-scale, mind you: The Streamlined K-4s #3768 BP20 in A and B units A Centipede! The S-2 Steam Turbine I am trying to make a scratchbuilt model of the K-4s and then I'm going to do the S-2. The only question is whether Liberty or Miracle Castings will do reproductions for me.......... I hope they will come out well enough to please most of us out there....... Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:03:06 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] DR-6-4-20 and Desired Locomotives Survey On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Hi folks.... > > Heres my two cents worth on the survey..... > > For diesels i would go with the BP20 (centipede) PRR,Seaboard,N de M and BP60, maybe? > FM C-liner Based on Greg Martin reported.... be patient -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:08:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey I would vote first for a correct tender for the I-1 before any locomotives. I would pick an FM H20-44 for a diesel and the Q2 for steam. However, I can't disagree with your choice of the original Broadway streamlined K4 or the Erie- builts and centipedes. We should be realistic about the practicality of some of our choices, though. Think about radii for the Q2 and the Centipedes! I have the luxury of membership in a club with 40'' radii, but someday I plan to have my own layout and 40" curves may not allow much of a layout in a bedroom. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:15:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Being new to this list I'll ad my two cents. Steam, I'd second the H9 or H10 that was mentioned earlier. An L1 would be nice too. What I'd really love is an I1 for my ore train Diesel Phase I or II GP9 (unless I missed a P2K offering, the Phase III geep was just past my cut off date.) RF16's (I haven't seen the E-R models yet, anyone have an opinion of them ) F7's (hopefully the upcomming Athearn/Highliner ones will be good) Brian J carlson Tonawanda NY Modeling the Pennsy in and around Corry Titusville, Oil City, and Warren Pa, in August 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:10:17 -0600 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Diesel - Centipede Steam - B6 0-6-0 C1 0-8-0 J1 2-10-4 (With different details, should be able to also please C&O modelers with this one.) Electric - P5 2-6-2 (Boxcab preferred) B1 0-C-0 Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 15:39:12 EST From: Subject: re: [PRR] DR-6-4-20 HELP Jerry, Read with interest your request for assistance in building the passenger Sharks. You're right, the picture is very nice and if you go to their web site they have even more photos. Are you interested in hiring someone or just asking for pointers? I'm a Shark enthusiast but I have not yet built one of these. I have built several of the freight variants and actually sold an article to MR on building and detailing an RF-15. The article hopefully will be published in the January or February edition. They told me they want to coincide its publication with the release of the new Shark model from Euro-models. I have a lot of experience in model building but am not a professional. I enjoy kitbashing, super detailing and I weather with an airbrush and drybrushing every one of my projects. Most of all I love the PRR. If If you are looking to hire someone maybe we could work out a deal. I'd need to know your timetable, expectations & requirements, purchasing of the resin models, budget, etc. My name is Kris Kollar. I live in Heshey, PA and if you're interested and live within driving distance I'd be willing to show you some of the PRR rolling stock and motive power I've built. Have a good day. If I'm way off the mark with this e-mail don't hesitate to let me know. What ever you do, good luck with those passenger sharks. Regards, Kris ------------- Original Text From: , on 11/16/98 11:56 AM: Hi All, Is anyone familiar with a business (person) with the expertise to build up Miracle Castings DR-6-4-20. The picture in the Dec. MR makes me drool but I am afraid the workmanship is above my capabilities. I would like to get in the lineup for at least a A-B-A set. Thanks for your usual helpful comments, Jerry S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: Locomotives Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 10:19:10 -0500 From: Jerry I will be summarizing all of the responses I am getting on "desired locomotives" in a few days. I will tell you in advance that BP60 Centipedes are way out in front. There has also been a lot of interest in P5 box cabs. More later. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:33:49 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Bowser steam locos From: locoshop@juno.com Hello, I was wondering which of the Bowser steam locomotive kits, along with it's extra super detail kit, makes the best looking (read most realistic) locomotive? I realize there may be many different responses on this one but was just curious. Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:02:00 EST Subject: [PRR] Congressional/Senator consists Can someone please point me to some information about the fluted cars used by the PRR in NEC service int the 50's. What was a typical consist? how many cars? Did Pennsy ever run sleepers on this train or was it strictly a day train? Inquiring SPFs want to know. Jay Keese Alexandria, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Bowser T1 Length & Turntables Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 12:31:27 -0500 From: Jerry To those of you who have the Bowser T1... The Bowser web site says the length of the model, with tender, is 17". That sounds about right, as that would scale to 123.25'. Question: If there are no obstructions, does it seem feasible to turn this unit on a 16" (scale 116') turntable? There would obviously be some overhang at each end. I am looking at Bowser turntables, and the next one up from 16" is 18" (scale 130.5'). The turntable at Harrisburg was 125' which would equate to about 17.25" in HO. I am trying to keep down the space requirements for my loco facility. The larger the turntable, the larger the roundhouse area required. Ideally, I need a 17" commercially available turntable. (I don't feel comfortable scratchbuilding. If someone out there does scratchbuild such beasts, get in touch with me...I'll pay if the price is right!) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:58:45 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey I wouldnt mind a HIGH short hood C-425....haven't been any of those since the brass Overland kit of a couple years ago. And those are just WAY out of my price range! ;-) On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Howdy All: > > I like to put in my vote for the Alco Centruy series. Specifically the > C636, I know that Stewart is doing the C628, maybe the C636 is already in > the works. > > I too would vote for a Baldwin/Lima/BLH transfer motor. > > As for electrics: let us start with a boxcab P5a - move on to the modified - > than a nice B1. > > cos > > > > Jerry wrote: > > > It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) > > > > Miracle Castings has filled a void for us "less than brass" in their BP20 > > (Passenger Shark) release. The Proto 2000 GP7, though slightly behind > > schedule, is due any day now. > > > > I know that many of us desire the BP20 (Centipede). > > > > I'd like to know what other diesels (P2K quality) are desired out there. > > Speak up! > > > > Allow me to lead: > > Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) > > FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) > > > > As for steam, at a price point below brass (comparable to Bowser), what > > do we want? > > > > My votes: > > K5 > > Streamlined K4 > > > > What about electrics? > > > > My votes: > > P5 boxcab > > MP54 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:35:57 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] I1 > It is wishful thinking, but considering the tremendous job Bowser has > done upgrading that locomotive, you'd think they would have upgraded that > rather noticable and destinctive part just as they have for the rest of > the engine. > > Of course if someone would come up with a nice pattern, it could be > offered in the aftermarket, perhaps along with some other detail goodies, > like a detailed valve gear link, and perhaps a nice looking crank, but I > guess that's just dreaming. I have a pattern and can Xerox a copy for anyone who wants one. I've run the engine with the homemade hanger and it seems to work fine. I'll just have to see if it holds up under extended use. For the reverse link, I used a dremel tool bit to make slit in Bowser's link. I drilled a hole where the link bulges a bit and riveted the link to the hanger. I then riveted the radius rod to the slit, with the head of the rivet facing inward. There is not enough room for the head if faced outward. You also have to cut off the rear rivet hole in the rod and file the end of rod down quite a bit so it will fit in the space ahead of the hanger. This is a lot of work and aggravation, but the appearance of the engine is worth it. An on the subject of upgrading the I-1, why on earth does Bowser have those awful "ears" that hang down under the cab. Those, and a lot of the metal under the cab, must be removed if you want to install a stoker motor and the engine brake distribution valve and cylinder under the cab. The back of the cab is also incorrect. I ground off the part that protrudes from the back of the cab and drilled a new hole for the screw (I am going to run the engine on 52" curves; you can't do this if the curves are 24"). Then I made a template for the part (don't know the name) that extends below the back of the cab, including a slit for the drawbar. I made the plate of .016" brass and expoxied it to the back of the cab. Anyone wanting the pattern for this plate let me know. With all of this done, the rear of the engine looks a lot more prototypical. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:52:19 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey From: locoshop@juno.com Brian and all, Actually from what I here, the Intermountain F unit that has been displayed as a rough shot has already gotten the eyes of many OVER the Athearn/Highliner model. This could be interesting since it can be powered with a P1K drive. On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:15:15 EST FarbLand@aol.com writes: >F7's (hopefully the upcomming Athearn/Highliner ones will be good) > >Brian J carlson >Tonawanda NY Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:39:16 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey ---------------------- Forwarded by Randy Williamson/Marathon on 11/17/98 09:20 AM --------------------------- "Michael Capone" on 11/16/98 07:19:24 PM To: Randy Williamson/Marathon cc: Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Diesels: Alco T-6, any of the transfer centercab units, FM C-liner (LIRR) Electric's: how about a P2K GG1?, E-44. Mike Capone -----Original Message----- From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com To: Jerry ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 16:23 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey >I'd like to know what other diesels (P2K quality) are desired out there. >Speak up! > >Allow me to lead: > Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) > FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) > >My choices for diesel are: > FM H20-44 (FS20) > Alco RS27 (AF27) > >I know there are one of two other diesels I would like to see but at the >moment can not think of them. > >Randy > > > > >Jerry on 11/16/98 01:46:00 PM > >To: "PRR-Talk" >cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) >Subject: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey > > > > >It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) > >Miracle Castings has filled a void for us "less than brass" in their BP20 >(Passenger Shark) release. The Proto 2000 GP7, though slightly behind >schedule, is due any day now. > >I know that many of us desire the BP20 (Centipede). > >I'd like to know what other diesels (P2K quality) are desired out there. >Speak up! > >Allow me to lead: > Baldwin VO-660 (BS6) > FM ERIE-Builts (FF20/FP20) > >As for steam, at a price point below brass (comparable to Bowser), what >do we want? > >My votes: > K5 > Streamlined K4 > >What about electrics? > >My votes: > P5 boxcab > MP54 > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:00:09 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey --On Monday, November 16, 1998, 2:46 PM -0500 Jerry wrote: > It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) ... > As for steam, at a price point below brass (comparable to Bowser), what > do we want? > I vote for D-16sb! Ever since Railworks came out with their criminally expensive D-16sb, I've frothed for someone like Sunset to come out with the same thing for people who'd actually run one on a layout. Now, w/ the Spectrum 2-8-0, it seems that a really good running, well detailed steam engine in an affordable price range is possible. Bring out the D-16sb ... put a freight pilot in the box that can be added ILO the pass. pilot. Paint it "fancy" for collectors and model railroaders of the Pennsy Ltd. era ... those of us who'd use it for switching and local chores in a 1930s-1940s scenario can deal with repainting; or better yet offier an undec. version. Even if the price is driven up a little by potential small market, it'd be worth it to undercut the brass importers. Collectors! Harrumph!! To keep sticker price down, perhaps the running gear cold be used to produce a more generic American engine ... southern prototypes, maybe? Another suggestion would be to take a lesson from the Pennsy motive power dept's notebook and do something with common boilers. Like K4(one that PULLS)/L1. The L1, now _THERE'S_ a layout-size freight engine that could pull your road freights over a broad era and SHOUTS Pennsy. Final thought: Did the E6 have a common boiler with one of the consol. classes? If so, there's an opportunity for "double-dipping" on dyes. Regards, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:34:22 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey "Electric locos? There weren't any stinkin' Electric locomotives on the REAL Pennsylvania Railroad." You sure got that right, Tom! Nary a one 'tween Altoona and Pittsburgh. 8) Diesels: Hear, Hear, on the Transfer Units. Baldwins, though. Numbered for service out of Johnstown and in N-Scale, of course! Centipedes in N-Scale would look great on 30" curves. In DGLE 5-stripe, numbered for service out of Altoona. Steam: Most anything would be welcome in N-Scale, especially the common freighters; H's, L's, M's, J's. W/correct tenders. Electric: Don't model the juice but since I grew up on the Corridor if someone made the E44 I'd buy a couple for nostalgia. Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:09:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Survey I would like to see a Lima-Baldwin-Hamilton Center Cab Transfer Units, oveer the road version.. They were so ugly they are beautiful JoeOG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 03:16:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Columbus, Grogan, the Bee Line, and the DX&B Ahhh, better to keep one's mouth shut and have one assume you're a fool than to open it...well ya'll know the rest. When I began writing it I was off my feed. I messed up the address to PRR- Talk. I've since posted it to PRR-Talk. Well, Rick you've answered some questions I've had for some time. The mid 1960s Pennsys I've picked up are full of info about Buckeye being under construction, so I just assumed that it opened under PRR management. Thanks for filling me in about Grogan and the A & B yards. Thought the entire complex including the roundhouse and coal drag staging tracks were called Grogan. I was playing with archaic nomenclature. When the Dayton, Xenia & Belpre reached Xenia and connected with the Little Miami, its interest in building any further east declined immensely even though it had grubbed and graded a right-of-way most of the way to Washington Courthouse. At the time, 50 years before the Dayton & Xenia Electric Railway was organized, Belpre was dropped from the railroad's name in general usage. The right of way east of Xenia through Jamestown was sold in the early 1870s to the developers of the Dayton & Southeastern, a narrow gauge railroad that was the first of a number of combination to operate the tracks which eventually were standard-gagued by the Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton's Dayton & Ironton RR and best known to us as the B&O's Ironton Branch On the usage of LM&C&X. Again it's archaic usage. This was the preferred method by the Little Miami to refer to itself in the mid-1860s before its lease. And I've been told that the dividends continued flowing after the PC merger. I believe the company finally met its demise with the formation of Conrail which promptly abandoned much of the lines. Completion of the Little Miami RR from Cincinnati to Springfield in 1846 at first drew little notice from Dayton which for a short time was secure with the Miami & Erie Canal. But in 1846 the Little Miami really didn't go any where but Cincinnati & Springfield. It was its connection to northern Ohio in 1848 by the completion of the Mad River & Lake Erie an d completion of the Columbus & Xenia in 1850 that set Dayton on end. By 1850 the town fathers were clamoring for a railroad like little Xenia had. Barney & Smith began building its railcars before Dayton had a railroad so its first cars were shipped out via canal boats. It wou=ld come with completion in 1851 or 1852 with completion of a fore runner of the (I THINK) CH&D. Again, I'm learning what you know first had. The Oasis branch is just a local switching line now that the L&N bridge is gone. I've long wondered where the Cincinnati Connecting Street Railway was and have long suspected it was west of Oasis. The key here is local switching. The action is up in Norwood with an I&O engine house at McCollaugh with Underhilll used for car storage. But all this may be out of date now that the I&O is z small regional line, it gaudy red locos pulling through freights. The Bee Line was used out of ignorance. About double tracking, the comment was simply that the current rout would be double In London, this would probably require extension of at least one track along the PRR line throughout town. That's it for now. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: [PRR] F30a Trucks Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:33:14 -0800 Is there a source in HO scale for 5'-8" wheelbase 70-ton PRR 2E-F10 trucks as used on the F30a flat car? If not, is there anything close? It appears that the trucks provided in the new Bowser kit are 5'-6" wheelbase 50-ton (PRR 2D-F8?). Thanks. Mark T. Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:20:59 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Models Hi folks.... Heres my two cents worth on the survey..... For diesels i would go with the BP20 (centipede) PRR,Seaboard,N de M and the Baldwin Demonstator could be painted and modeled from these. ( And maybe CNJ double ended kitbashes ) FM C-liner For Steam i'd go with a H-6sb or a B-6sb..... Many railroads besides Pennsy owned and bought them second hand L.I., N-P Belt Line, The B & O version of the H-6sb,P-RSL and others had the H-6...and some had the B-6 also...not to mention Washington Terminals B-6 engines.Many predecessor lines had versions of some of them too...might be able to bash a B-6 boiler for a D class. I would have mentioned the K-5...but i built the master for Liberty and i have no idea what joe will do with it...besides...if i really gotta have one...when things get better for me i could always build another. For Electrics....I'd go with..... P-5 boxcab.....besides the P-5 you could maybe bash a O or L class from it. Maybe a B-1 if you were really daring. And the E-44 for later Pennsy modelers....you could also paint them for Penn Central,Conrail,Amtrak....and maybe bash one into a E-33...which you could then paint for New Haven and Virginian. Lots of ways you could go with that one. As for the Shark....Jerry...i could probably do em...but don't want to right now.....I've done EMD E-7 and F-7 units....could'nt be much harder... the stripes are a bear though...especially the five stripe kind. Besides i have some other projects i'm working on myself.... Just finished a Bachmann doodlebug bash job. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:02:46 EST Subject: [PRR] Columbus, Grogan, the Bee Line, and the DX&B Tom, I'm glad to see your rundown on my old stomping grounds. Is there a reason it wasn't posted to PRR-Talk as well as MEMRA? Naturally (you know me) I have some comments: > The Panhandle "passenger line," the Dayton & Xenia Locally east of Dayton (notice I said locally, as this was my neck of the woods), "Dayton & Xenia" would have referred to one of the interurban lines that paralleled the Panhandle from Dayton to Xenia. The railroad company for this segment was the "Dayton Xenia and Belpre", or DX&B. A curiousity: in early and local Ohio history, the Little Miami arrives in Xenia, annexes the Columbus & Xenia and also builds or controls the Springfield line, the DX&B line Xenia-Dayton, and the Dayton & Western on to Richmond Indiana. Thus, from about 1846 on, the Little Miami controls lines from Cincinnati to Springfield, and from Columbus to Richmond, crossing at Xenia OH. At this point they have a monopoly on railroad access to Cincinnati, biggest city in the "west" at the time. This monopoly made the Little Miami a local blue chip stock, at least through the Civil War. By 1868, faced with the building of a Big Four line to Cincinnati and the threat of another flanking attack by the Panhandle (PC&StL) from Zanesville, they lease their lines to the Pennsy interests and the lines become part of the PC&StL. Local legend has it that the lease was under extremely favorable terms, and Little Miami stock continued to pay dividends even when PC stock stopped. In a more modern time, the tail of course wagged the dog. The line from Columbus through Xenia and Dayton to Richmond was part of "MAIN LINE" Pittsburgh to St. Louis. The funny part of this is that by 1966 the original main from Xenia to Cincinnati had ceased to be a main line and the PRR called it the "C&X branch". > How could all Y'all have forgotten Buckeye Yard, built by the PRR in > the > early 1960s Buckeye didn't exist in 1966; It isn't in the PRR employee timetable No.5 (Oct 1966). And I don't think the Pennsy had yet moved out of Yard A east of Columbus Union Station in the first half of 1968, as I used to go trainwatching there (at US Tower). However, Buckeye was already in operation before Febrary 1970 (Penn Central Southern Region ETT No. 4). Once Buckeye got going, all the other PC yards in town started to dry up, including PRR predecessor yards: - Yard A - Yard B - Grandview (west of the Scioto River on the Logansport/C&IC line) - Grogan - one more yard at about Front Street, just west of HIGH STREET on the Logansport line. This yard probably handled passenger equipment at one time, and always had work train equipment in it in the early 70s. > Mighty Grogan yard north of Downtown Columbus has been paved over by > the > I-670 innerbelt with only a lonely single track along its north Shoulder > used > by the Ohio Central marking the route of the Panhandle. I'm pretty sure this was NOT Grogan Yard. I've driven I-670 and it goes east from the site of Union Station along what used to be Yard A and Yard B. The confusion comes from the fact that a few years ago Ted Rose did a nice drawing of the PRR's concrete coal dock near St. Clair Avenue roundhouse, and he called it "Grogan Yard". So in the recent past, people have been misnaming Columbus's main PRR yard complex "Grogan". YARD A/YARD B/St.CLAIR AVE. SHOPS The St. Clair roundhouse (large) and shops (larger) stood in the angle of a broad curve where the Akron line (CA&C) left the east-west Panhandle main to go north to Akron and Cleveland. The coal dock and other servicing facilities there were kind of sandwiched between Yard A on the north side of the Panhandle main and Yard B on the south side of the Panhandle main. Keep in mind that Yard A and Yard B were there to handle the Pennsy's east-west traffic; they did this with a lot of flat switching, but I believe Yard B did some of the (eastbound?) classification off a mini-hump somewhere close to Leonard Avenue. Also along yard B on the south side were a large brick icing facility for reefer traffic, and farther east a Smith-Douglass fertilizer plant that gets into some of the steam-era fan pictures taken in Columbus. GROGAN YARD The real GROGAN YARD was not on the Panhandle main at all. To reach it, you used to follow a street north along the CA&C for a few blocks until you came to an interlocking called JOYCE AVENUE ( I have a recent map that calls it CW TOWER. At that diamond, the N&W's Joyce Avenue yard stretched off to the east, and the PRR's Grogan Yard stretched off to the west. Purpose of Grogan Yard was to dispatch coal trains up the Sandusky Branch. It received already- made-up coal trains from N&W Joyce Avenue Yard (or from the C&O's yard, or from the L&N via PRR from Cincinnati) so the tracks were few and trainlength. I don't know of any engine servicing facilities at Grogan; they weren't needed with the huge St. Clair Avenue roundhouse just a short distance south. Incidentally, I believe this explains why Ted Rose was misled to name his drawing "Grogan". He knew the Pennsy J-1's (and in 1956 the leased Santa Fe 2-10-4's) were used on the Sandusky branch in heavy coal/ore hauling service. And he knew the Columbus terminal for these trains was Grogan. Therefore, the distinctive coal dock with these distinctive engines around it must be Grogan, too (logical, but wrong). And away we went... (my apologies to Ted -- he's a wonderful artist). At the west end of Grogan, the track turned north along the Big Four, running up the east side of the Ohio State Fairgrounds, heading for Marion OH and eventually Lake Erie at Sandusky. Naturally, once the Sandusky Branch became part of the N&W in October 1964, Grogan Yard's reason for existence disappeared. N&W coal trains arriving at Joyce Avenue could be recrewed and forwarded up the line to the lakes. N&W merchandise traffic was worked at Joyce Ave, then sent north to the large ex- NKP hump yard at Bellevue (the Sandusky Branch runs up the west side of this yard, behind the classic NKP concrete roundhouse). For awhile, Grogan became a storage spot for cripples and unwanted old junk (therefore a gold mine for the freight car photographer), but it's been gone so long that now it doesn't even appear on Steam Powered Video's detail map of Columbus trackage. . > Conrail's Bee Line uses the LM&C&X to reach London This is the NYC/Big Four coming south into Columbus and heading for Cincinnati. It leaves the Bee Line (Columbus -Indianapolis) at BURT Tower in Galion. It meets the ex-PRR at GRANT interlocking just east of what used to be Columbus Union Station and is now the Convention Center, and traffic uses the Panhandle main west (Columbus & Xenia, historically) past Buckeye Yard's south approaches to regain Big Four rails at London. My question is on the use of the term "Bee Line". My understanding is that our New York Central brethren call just about all the NYC trackage southwest of Cleveland the Big Four (CCC&StL). However, I think they only term the one doubletrack main line out of Cleveland and passing through Bellefontaine on its way to Indy "the Bee Line". > Norfolk-Southern's making some noises about double tracking the entire > line from Columbus to Cincinnati. This would require reactivation of PRR R- O- > W > in London since the old Big 4/NYC line is a single-tracked affair running, > for > the most part, between buildings. It has been single tracked all the way to > Dayton since it was build in the 1870s (It shares a R-O-W with the Erie's > Dayton Branch between Enon, just west of Springfield, and Dayton that > effectively gave Conrail a double-tracked main. So would double track go in London to Springfield? Or is there a more exotic alternative? > Remnants of two PRR lines are used by Conrail to reach General > Motors' Delphi > (DELCO) Division plants in eastern Kettering. The spur follows the Panhandle > main east from downtown Dayton, parting Dayton Union Terminal trackage at > Waynetown Tower, Wayne Avenue Junction is the tower where PRR met Dayton Union Terminal trackage. We can safely assume Dayton's Wayne Avenue was named after General "Mad Anthony" Wayne, since Wayne was instrumental in convincing the Indians to leave the area (Treaty of Greenville, etc.). > Dutoit Street on PRR ETTs. It then runs up that steep grade > to Clement where its turns south along the original route of the Dayton, > Lebanon & Cincinnati, a predecessor of the CL&N. > around Cincinnati, the I&O operates the Oasis branch, the oldest portion of > the Little Miami Railroad and the only portion of it still in operation from > Underhill Yard How about PRR's Undercliff Yard, close by Lunken Airport? BTW, the engine facility was downriver at Pendleton (where the really OLD yard was circa 1843). along the Ohio River through downtown to what was once > Cincinnati Union Terminal trackage. Which part? I'm confused -- is this OASIS to CUT via Cincinnati Street Connecting Railroad? Doesn't sound right. I'd expect them to use trackage away from the river (RENDCOMB JUNCTION to VALLEY?) and access CL&N trackage near McCullough Yard in Norwood. > Here it meets the Middletown & > Cincinnati, the CL&N's Middletown branch, and runs across the Conrail > Columbus-Cincinnti line into Middletown. > An apparent remnant of the Zanesville branch is operated by CSX as > part of > its Colubmus-Cincinnati mainline between Washington Court House and > Wilmington. It may have been a situation of paralleling right-of-ways. It was. I think the B&O bridge failed first, but in any case they just S-ed over to the PRR right-of-way. Can anybody help me out with the above questions? Tom and I (et al) want to get this material correct. There's no value in doing it wrong. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:36:27 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey I'll see all of those and raise you an O1c. Chuck Friedlein OnTrackHby@aol.com wrote: > > < Speak up! > > Allow me to lead: > > What about electrics? > > My votes: > P5 boxcab > MP54>> > > What about one of the ignored workhorses of the railroad... the E-44??? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Desired Loco Survey Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:06:11 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE11B5.B3D6BCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My only request is for a Baldwin shifter. And if we are going to push = for a Baldwin why not the BS10a (DS-4-4-1000). The PRR had more of these = class Baldwins than any other, about 137 I believe. The highest number = after than was class BS 6a. Al ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE11B5.B3D6BCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My only request is for a Baldwin = shifter. And if=20 we are going to push for a Baldwin why not the BS10a (DS-4-4-1000). The = PRR had=20 more of these class Baldwins than any other, about 137 I believe. The = highest=20 number after than was class BS 6a.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE11B5.B3D6BCA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:55:31 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Jerry wrote: > > It's time for our semi-annual survey... 8-) > ... I'm in the "bought house with big basement so can't afford anything" phase. Diesels: With PA's, F's, & both Sharks out now/soon, the shopping list is already long. Erie-builts would be nice. Steam: Hoping Bachmann upgrades the K4 & does a H9 shell for the 2-8-0. For those who might know: If Bachmann put a trailing truck on the Consolidation and used the K4 shell to make an L1, would it look close? -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:54:41 +0000 From: J Bruce Andrews Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: > > > I vote for D-16sb! Paint> it "fancy" for collectors and model > railroaders of the Pennsy Ltd. era ... Yes, and then maybe Westerfield would re-issue the "Yellow Kid" series. For more modern steam how about a B6 or even a B8 switcher. I would also like a Q2 duplex. And for a real way out vote, an HC1 articulated. Electrics could include a PK200 quality GG1, P5 in all the body styles, B1 switchers, and MP54 cars. Also, how about an FF2 (could also be of interest to Great Northern modelers as their Y1) as I saw a lot of these growing up in Bryn Mawr in the late 50's early 60's. Anything in a first generation diesel not already done would be great. The Lima transfer BS24m would be a personal favorite along with a FM Erie Built. (I believe Tiger Valley is planning to do the Alco RSD7 and RSD15). Bruce Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:05:00 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Locomotives Jerry, I tried adding my "wants" to the list but the message got bounced. I seconded the MP54's ect. of one of the first messages, and added P5a and O1c locos to the juice jack want list. An L6 might not be too bad either. Chuck Friedlein Jerry wrote: > > I will be summarizing all of the responses I am getting on "desired > locomotives" in a few days. > > I will tell you in advance that BP60 Centipedes are way out in front. > > There has also been a lot of interest in P5 box cabs. > > More later. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:16:53 -0500 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] desired loco survey My wishlist would include: steam: H-10 (LIRR with appropriate tender) C-51s (LIRR- Alco built 0-8-0) diesel: FM C Liners would be nice. electric: NH EF-1 NH EF-4 NH EP-5 and of course LIRR or PRR DD-1 Elliot ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:01:38 EST Subject: [PRR] High Line NX-23 article needed To all: As a lot of you know, I've got a group in Urbana, Ohio, interested in saving one of two remaining PRR NX23 cabin cars. It's the same one Model Railroader used in its April 1964 issue as an example of a decrepit caboose. I just came across a copy of Bob Johnson's cabin car bibliography and discover that Chuck Blardone's "NX23 -- The Good Soldier," published in the Philly PRRT&HS chapter's newsletter, The High Line, in its Summer 1985 issue (Vol. 5, No. 4; pp 7-16). I'm willing to pay or trade for a copy of this article for myself and to copy and forward to the folks in Urbana. Thanks, Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:05:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] looking gang, i apologize if this is off topic; anyone know carl hasslet's e-mail address? thanks rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:56:02 -0500 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] P5a St. Louis, Mo. I don't know how many of you have seen the P5a recently, but its current state is terrible. At least it is located undercover, but it is in the corner of the car barn rusting away and "painted" a light green. To get at it you have to squeeze into a very tight spot. You can forget about any kind of decent picture. Hopefully one day this engine will go to the Pennsy museum where it will be appreciated and can be seen. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:53:19 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a St. Louis, Mo. Greetings, I was at the museum about 25 years ago and had the distinct pleasure of being allowed to climb up on top of the P5 to take photos of the roof, etc. It was outside at the time and in a lighter-than-it-should-be green with all the stencilling painted over--there wasn't a number or monogram to be seen. It's color was just what they had at the time to give it a coat of paint for whatever protection that could afford it for then, as I was told. They had no space inside for it, and it was out of the way where you could see it, but couldn't get a decent photo of it. At least they managed to get it inside, but their problem is the same as many other museums'; lack of sufficient funds to go around for all the work that's needed, both on the exhibits and on the facilities--not to mention the lack of enough volunteers to do the work. Sometimes that's an excuse, and sometimes it's a reason--there's a difference. It's an excuse when the powers that be don't put forth the proper effort to solicit funding through available grants, government or other programs. It's a reason when they earnestly try that, but don't get the nod from the people with the money. BTW, as I was told when I was there, that loco is a P5--the one and only original--from which the P5a and P5b were developed. Anybody got any ideas on how to try to get it transferred to the RR Museum of PA, and what it might cost in time and $s? Chuck Friedlein Eric Lauterbach wrote: > > I don't know how many of you have seen the P5a recently, but its current > state is terrible. At least it is located undercover, but it is in the > corner of the car barn rusting away and "painted" a light green. To get > at it you have to squeeze into a very tight spot. You can forget about > any kind of decent picture. Hopefully one day this engine will go to the > Pennsy museum where it will be appreciated and can be seen. > Eric > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:28:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Survey Jerry, My vote for diesels would be SD40 (love them snappers) and the T6. Electrics I'd like to see an E44. (Never got to ride one when I worked for PENN CENTRAL) And the MP54 would be nice. I dont do steam. I'm too young to remember the real thing and have nothing other than pictures videos and an occasional excursion to compare memories to and I cant share the feeling of awe that those who do remember can. I just listen to the stories. Thanks Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:51:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Hi Guys, Thought I'd add my druthers since Jerry asked. Also, as a point of interest I'll go ahead and cite a few comments made by John Glaab in the latest issue of "Rail Line News" ( John is the author of "The Brown Book of Brass Locomotives", Third Edition and also owner of Peach Creek Shops, dealing in brass as well as plastic railroad models) In part John states; "I know for a fact, that one plastic manufacturer applies the "six-road-rule" before they will even consider building a model. It is a simple rule that says if six different railroads had it, there is a good chance the market will be large enough to justify the cost of making dies for the injection molding of a plastic model. Conversely, if fewer than six roads owed the equipment, producing the model wont be approved." He also commented on the prices of some older brass, stating that there has been a downward trend in prices of such as: Old Alco (Kumata) diesels; Lambert passenger cars; Old PFM diesels; Old Balboa diesels; Early Akane locomotives and Overland "tank-drive" diesels. I can attest to some of those downward trends in pricing. When I attended the brass show in Timonium last month there was a dealer from the Boston area who was selling old Alco Brass for $50.00 a pop. These Alco models are not what one might consider "good-runners" but, if someone like Miracle Castings could construct a chassis (Possibly even adjustable in length) to fit under some of the diesels (as they have done with their model of the BP-20), it might provide the opportunity to own something not otherwise available and have a good runner to boot. I have also noticed that a goodly number of some of these older brass diesels are showing up, with regularity, on e-Bay auctions of late. I wonder if Glaab's comments in "Rail Line News" had anything to do with it. Maybe just a coincidence. Well, back to my druthers and as someone once said: " Why wish for a loaf of bread, when you can wish for the whole grocery store." Diesels: C-Liner Erie Built Transfer (either will do) Steam: G54sa (I know, only the LIRR had them but, I'm applying the Grocery Store Concept here) Electric: DD1 That concludes my wish list and ramblings. Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:05:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey PRR Loco wish list. ALCO C630 C636 T6 Baldwin DR 4-4-15 original sharks A and B units DR 12-8-30 centipedes DS 4-4-10 RT 624 DS 4-4-6 DS 4-4-7.5 S-12 EMD GP9 phase II GP9B FM Erie Builts A and B units Lima T-2500 Stream I1s J1 L1s H9 and H10 Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:43:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] High Line NX-23 article needed In a message dated 11/17/98 9:14:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, AJSNGS writes: << Thanks for your efforts. The NX23 in Altoona is falling apart. This is an important part of PRR history. Keep us updated on your efforts. >> There's an NX23 in Altoona? That makes three left by my count. There's the one in Urbana and I've been told there's one in a town along the Central Indiana RR which was once owned 50-50 by the PRR and NYC. I believe is in Lapel, Ind., which lies between Noblesville and Anderson northeast of Indianapolis. Tom Vondruska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:01:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Setting a PRR Lines West Fans Fest date Okay, ya'll With Easter in March and the PRRT&HS '99 convention set for Lancaster next August, it looks like April is going to be best time for the Pennsy Lines West Fans Fest to be held in Xenia, Ohio. It will be held at the Greene County Historical Society Carriage House Museum and I'm attempting to set up a fan trip over the old CL&N on the Turtle Creek Valley Railway. The historical society wants a date. Right know I'm looking at the weekend of April 10 & 11, 1999. Please take a look at your calendars and let me know if there's any significant conflicts. For those on the MEMRA list, the PLWFF will be small but organized gathering of SPLWF's with seminars and a small, Pennsy focused vendor area. The Greene County Historical Society's Carriage House Museum is home to the HO scale "Operating diorama of Xenia's Railroads 1920s-1950s." A full scale replica of the Pennsylvania's XG Tower was opened last May on the site of Pennsy's division service facilities and depots. A replica of a 1880s Panhandle combination depot is now under construction along the ol' Little Miami Railroad, the Panhandle's Springfield branch, here in downtown Yellow Springs. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:11:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T1 Length & Turntables In a message dated 11/17/98 4:54:33 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Ideally, I need a 17" commercially available turntable. (I don't feel comfortable scratchbuilding. If someone out there does scratchbuild such beasts, get in touch with me...I'll pay if the price is right!) >> Stauffer's Pennsy Power says the T1 was 122 feet. You might get by with the Diamond Scale 120 foot (16.5") turntable. A little pricy and somewhat touchy to adjust, but once completed they look great and work OK. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:10:03 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Congressional/Senator consists --------------9112960A7FB499117BB0007C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: >From Wayner Publications 1972 "Car Names and Numbers" , ' Pennsy Power III" the "Pennsy Journal" (Issue 4&5) and "The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" January 1952. It looks like there was two sets for both the Congressional and The Senator. They were built by the Budd Company and delivered from October 1951 to January 1952. 60 seat chair car with 14 seat lounge numbers 1568 to 1599 - 32 cars Tavern lounge car numbers 1153 to 1156 48 seat Dining Car 4525 & 4526 Dining Room car numbers 4624 & 4626 Kitchen - Bar car numbers 4625 & 4627 Buffet Obs with 14 parlor seats 7126 & 7127 Pullman plan 9528 Buffet Obs with 18 parlor seats 7128 & 7129 Pullman plan 9529 29 seat Parlor car numbers 7130 to 7145 Pullman plan 9526 Conference Parlor Car 7146 & 7147 Pullman plan 9527 The Senator Trains: A set (my designation): 1584, 1585, 1586, 1587, 1588, 1155, 1589, 1590, 1591, 4525, 7138, 7139, 7140 & 7126. B set: 1592, 1593, 1594, 1595, 1596, 1156, 1597, 1598, 1599, 4526, 7141, 7142, 7144 & 7127. The Congressional Trains: A set: 1568, 1569, 1570, 1571, 1153, 1572, 1573, 1574, 1575, 4624, 4625, 7147, 7130, 7131, 7132, 7133, 7134 & 7128. B set: 1576, 1577, 1578, 1579, 1154, 1580, 1581, 1582, 1583, 4626, 4627, 7146, 7135, 7136, 7137, 7143, 7145 & 7129. Check out the train in Pennsy Power III pages 396 and 397. As far as I can tell the 1952 trains (Congressional and Senator) had no mail, baggage or sleepers, only the 1 drawing room in each of the parlor cars. The daily postwar/pre 1952 (Trains 177 & 176) - Senator had: 2 MS60 - when needed 1 Parlor, buffet 12 chair, 1 drawing room 24 seat car 2 PL30-1 ( Parlor Lounge 30 seat with 1 drawing room) 1 twin unit Diner, Kitchen lunch car 4 P70-FBR standard 72 seat car 2 P70 Scheme 6 either an 80 or 84 seat car The Congressional ( Trains 153 & 152): 1 PL Lounge 12 chair, 1 Drawing room and 24 seat bar 2 PL30-1 2 PL28-1 1 SL 7 drawing room 1 PL Bar 20 chairs - 14 seats 1 twin unit Diner, Kitchen lunch car 6,7 or 5 P70-FBR (depends on day) also an Advance 152 on Fridays only. >From the above we can see that only the Congressional offered a 7 drawing room car. The only Pullman cars that fit this description are the Willow series cars. The Official Register lists two cars in service to the PRR, the Willow Valley and the Willow River. Both cars are built to Pullman plan 3583A. The Wayner Publications "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" (no publish or copyright date) has a nice picture of 1157 ( rebuilt for protection ) on page 32. And a nice picture of Parlor Car 7146 the Matthias W. Baldwin, nice detail for the onboard telephone/telex gear. If anybody is interested in the names of all the Parlor cars let me know and I'll send them along too. Sorry to be so long winded, hope this answered your questions. cos Jpk815@aol.com wrote: > Can someone please point me to some information about the fluted cars used by > the PRR in NEC service int the 50's. What was a typical consist? how many > cars? Did Pennsy ever run sleepers on this train or was it strictly a day > train? > > Inquiring SPFs want to know. > > Jay Keese > Alexandria, VA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------9112960A7FB499117BB0007C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:

From Wayner Publications 1972 "Car Names and Numbers" , ' Pennsy Power III"
the "Pennsy Journal" (Issue 4&5) and "The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" January 1952.
 

It looks like there was two sets for both the Congressional and The Senator.  They were built by the Budd Company and delivered from October 1951 to January 1952.
60 seat chair car with 14 seat lounge numbers 1568 to  1599 - 32 cars
Tavern lounge car numbers       1153 to 1156
48 seat Dining Car                      4525 & 4526
Dining Room car numbers         4624 & 4626
Kitchen - Bar car numbers          4625 & 4627
Buffet Obs with 14 parlor seats   7126  & 7127 Pullman plan 9528
Buffet Obs with 18 parlor seats   7128  & 7129 Pullman plan  9529
29 seat Parlor car numbers         7130  to 7145 Pullman plan 9526
Conference Parlor Car                7146 & 7147  Pullman plan  9527

The Senator Trains:
A set  (my designation):  1584, 1585, 1586, 1587, 1588, 1155, 1589, 1590, 1591, 4525, 7138, 7139, 7140 & 7126.
B set: 1592, 1593, 1594, 1595, 1596, 1156, 1597, 1598, 1599, 4526, 7141, 7142, 7144 & 7127.

The Congressional Trains:
A set: 1568, 1569, 1570, 1571, 1153, 1572, 1573, 1574, 1575, 4624, 4625, 7147, 7130, 7131, 7132, 7133, 7134 & 7128.
B set: 1576, 1577, 1578, 1579, 1154, 1580, 1581, 1582, 1583, 4626, 4627, 7146, 7135, 7136, 7137, 7143, 7145 & 7129.

Check out the train in Pennsy Power III pages 396 and 397.  As far as I can tell the 1952 trains (Congressional and Senator) had no mail, baggage or sleepers, only the 1 drawing room in each of the parlor cars.

The  daily postwar/pre 1952  (Trains 177 & 176) - Senator had:
2  MS60 - when needed
1  Parlor, buffet 12 chair, 1 drawing room 24 seat car
2  PL30-1  ( Parlor Lounge 30 seat with 1 drawing room)
1  twin unit Diner, Kitchen lunch car
4  P70-FBR  standard 72 seat car
2  P70 Scheme 6 either an 80 or 84 seat car

The Congressional ( Trains 153  & 152):
1  PL Lounge 12 chair, 1 Drawing room and 24 seat bar
2  PL30-1
2  PL28-1
1  SL  7 drawing room
1  PL Bar 20 chairs - 14 seats
1  twin unit Diner, Kitchen lunch car
6,7 or 5 P70-FBR (depends on day)
also an Advance 152 on Fridays only.

From the above we can see that only the Congressional offered a 7 drawing room car.  The only Pullman cars that fit this description are the Willow series cars.   The Official Register lists two cars in service to the PRR, the Willow Valley and the Willow River.  Both cars are built to Pullman plan 3583A.

The Wayner Publications "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" (no publish or copyright date) has a nice picture of 1157 ( rebuilt for protection ) on page 32.  And a nice picture of Parlor Car 7146 the Matthias W. Baldwin, nice detail for the onboard telephone/telex gear.

If anybody is interested in the names of all the Parlor cars let me know and I'll send them along too.  Sorry to be so long winded, hope this answered your questions.

cos

Jpk815@aol.com wrote:

Can someone please point me to some information about the fluted cars used by
the PRR in NEC service int the 50's.  What was a typical consist?  how many
cars? Did Pennsy ever run sleepers on this train or was it strictly a day
train?

Inquiring SPFs want to know.

Jay Keese
Alexandria, VA

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  --------------9112960A7FB499117BB0007C-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 01:03:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T1 Length & Turntables Jerry, Allow yourself more room. It will dramatically change the "look" as well as the operation on the engine facilities, don't skimp on 2 inches unless you want to loose the realism of the whole scene. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 01:29:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DR-6-4-20 HELP(reply) Jerry and all, Building a resin model of a set of passenger sharks is going to be a lot tougher than one thinks. And the paint and decals are not all that difficult. I had my Shark set (Model Power) on display at Naperville and only 2 guys figured out that both A-units had different lettering schemes. Likely most never realized there were two lettering diagrams. I find that sometimes the most timely part of a project is the research that goes into it before the first two pieces are fitted. Jerry, if you are not comfortable with your abilities at modeling with all resin parts then by all means contract it out. But for heaven sakes check out the workmanship of whoever does the work, pay a fair price, and get a completion date ... but never pay upfront for work not performed. Also, check the guys resources for the project as there is nothing like finding out the model you just paid didn't look like that or could have been a bit more unique if the guy would have just did a little more homework. Greg Martin watching from LINES way out WEST In a message jerry@dsop.com writes: << I have an MC A unit (another A and a B on the way) and it's not as bad as you'd think. There are actually very few parts involved in getting the unit operational. Using an air brush (or aerosol) the Tuscan paint job is a breeze. Even the trainphones aren't that difficult. What'll get you is the decalling. Even I haven't attempted this yet. It is the decaling that makes or breaks the final products. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] DR-6-4-20 HELP(reply) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 06:23:45 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/18/98 1:29 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: >figured out that both A-units had different lettering schemes. Likely most >never realized there were two lettering diagrams. Ah, but there were four!!! See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/ ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting a PRR Lines West Fans Fest date Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 05:47:01 -0500 Tom, I thought that the 1999 PRRT&HS Convention was in "Altoona". How did it get to Lancaster? The year 2000 will be in Harrisburg ( at this time) Bill ---------- > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Cc: MEMRA@Listserve.Dartmouth.Edu > Subject: [PRR] Setting a PRR Lines West Fans Fest date > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:01 PM > > Okay, ya'll > > With Easter in March and the PRRT&HS '99 convention set for Lancaster next > August, it looks like April is going to be best time for the Pennsy Lines West > Fans Fest to be held in Xenia, Ohio. > It will be held at the Greene County Historical Society Carriage House Museum > and I'm attempting to set up a fan trip over the old CL&N on the Turtle Creek > Valley Railway. The historical society wants a date. Right know I'm looking at > the weekend of April 10 & 11, 1999. Please take a look at your calendars and > let me know if there's any significant conflicts. > For those on the MEMRA list, the PLWFF will be small but organized gathering > of SPLWF's with seminars and a small, Pennsy focused vendor area. The Greene > County Historical Society's Carriage House Museum is home to the HO scale > "Operating diorama of Xenia's Railroads 1920s-1950s." > A full scale replica of the Pennsylvania's XG Tower was opened last May on > the site of Pennsy's division service facilities and depots. A replica of a > 1880s Panhandle combination depot is now under construction along the ol' > Little Miami Railroad, the Panhandle's Springfield branch, here in downtown > Yellow Springs. > > Tom V. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:37:04 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Survey On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, RICHARD ADER wrote: > Jerry, > My vote for diesels would be SD40 Kato claims to be going to rerun their SD40 in HO. I think someone makes one in N. There's also the RPP shell in HO. This one's covered, IMHO. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting a PRR Lines West Fans Fest date Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 06:25:21 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/17/98 6:01 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: > With Easter in March and the PRRT&HS '99 convention set for Lancaster next >August, it looks like April is going to be best time for the Pennsy Lines >West >Fans Fest to be held in Xenia, Ohio. PRRT&HS Convention is in August, but in Altoona. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR- Desired Loco Servey Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:51:13 -0500 I only have 2 Votes for my choice Loco "J" 's "Q2" 's I like the big ones! Sam Vastano svastano@ccia.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser steam locos Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:25:21 PST >I was wondering which of the Bowser steam locomotive kits, along with >it's extra super detail kit, makes the best looking (read most realistic)>locomotive? ____________________________ Appearance is subjective. Nothing looks better than a scale model, fabricated so that everything is in proper scale relationship, such as cab wall thickness, running board thickness, stair steps, etc. You can get closest to this ideal with a fine brass model, with the price to go with it. But, do you want to run your models on an operational layout? Then there's no contest. Go with Bowser. Add the detail, and paint them. From three feet, it's gonna be hard to tell it isn't a far more expensive brass model. But Bowser's run, and run, and run, and you can get parts, and they pull, really pull, and they are made especially for the Pennsy fan. Unless you are a collector and keep all you stuff in a display case, go with Bowser, all they way. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, Artist, Illustrator, World Traveler, Lecturer, and Bum. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:37:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting a PRR Lines West Fans Fest date Okay, Okay, it's in Altoona. I'd still like to see one in the heart and home of the Panhandle, Columbus. But let's not start the LW convention thread again. My buggywhip's frayed, my arm aches and that horse is still dead. Tom V> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose PRR REA cars Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:17:53 PST Folks, just got my long-awaited back order of Red Caboose cars from Jerry. Fine models. And Jerry's Desktop Solutions if a first-rate source for stuff, especially Pennsy stuff you can't find on your local hobby shop shelf. If you want some of these kits, get them now. I doubt we'll see anything better in the near term, and I doubt they will be an in-stock item forever. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, down here next to C&O Milepost FM Zero. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose PRR REA cars Date: Wed, 18 Nov 98 10:48:26 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/18/98 9:17 AM, Andrew Harmantas (frisco484@hotmail.com) wrote: >Folks, just got my long-awaited back order of Red Caboose cars from >Jerry. Fine models. And Jerry's Desktop Solutions if a first-rate >source for stuff, especially Pennsy stuff you can't find on your local >hobby shop shelf. > >If you want some of these kits, get them now. I doubt we'll see >anything better in the near term, and I doubt they will be an in-stock >item forever. And I assure you that this was not a paid endorsement!!! Thanks Andrew. And, yes, I have plenty more in stock. 12 road numbers. $13.50 each. $5 shipping per order. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:33:03 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Let's try this again! > Here's my 2 cents > > Diesels: > > FM C-Liners A&B units (FF16) > Centipeds (of course) > Alco RS-27 > Scale length RDC's (Note: the "P" in P-RSL!) > > Electric: > > E-44 "The Brick" (Classic late Pennsy, only available a couple of times in > badly overpriced brass.) > MP-54 > > Steam > > Keeping my fingers crossed for the Bachman modernized K-4. > H-9 > > Regards > Dick Taylor > Moose Lips MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:08:37 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a St. Louis, Mo. Sorta like the DLW Camelback that they have there and refuse to even think about doing anything about or returning it somewhere where it would definitely be appreciated (Steamtown!!!) The Camelback is in the same condition and same predicament! On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, Eric Lauterbach wrote: > I don't know how many of you have seen the P5a recently, but its current > state is terrible. At least it is located undercover, but it is in the > corner of the car barn rusting away and "painted" a light green. To get > at it you have to squeeze into a very tight spot. You can forget about > any kind of decent picture. Hopefully one day this engine will go to the > Pennsy museum where it will be appreciated and can be seen. > Eric > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:24:32 -0500 Hi All! I guess I'd have to go along with many in wanting to see a Centipede, although I cringe in the corner at the thought of building one. We are currently working on the C-Liner model, so those who wished for that will hopefully see one in a few months. This has always been a favourite of mine, primarily because they were built in my home town (Kingston, Ontario) for the Canadian roads. I personally have always liked the electric, three truck locomotive prototypes that Baldwin built in Nov. 1951 as PRR#'s 4995 and 4996, although I doubt there'd be much market for them.... Anyway, that's my two cents. Hey Jerry, will the results of this survey be tabulated and posted by you, or should we do the math ourselves? :-) P.S. Does anyone have a phone number for Hal Kirschner at Hobbytown of Boston? He left us a phone message regarding his shark drive systems, but his 1-800 number doesn't work up here in Polar Bear land. Any help is appreciated. Thanks Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:58:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Lines West Fans Fest date In a message dated 11/18/98 9:25:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: << Tom, Are you going to be setting up a mailing list to send out information on the Fest or should we send a SSAE for the information. I am glad to see someone has taken the initiative and set something up for us SPLWF's. I hope this will not be a one year deal and leads to different locations in the future. Randy >> I've got a mailing list from last year and I'll be adding to it. I'm not making any commitment beyond April. If there is interest, then things may occur. I'll make sure you're on my e-mail distribution list. I'm pretty sure that you're already on it. I probably will not officially announce the date until after the Historical Society I'm still planning advance registration premiums of either a book, a PLW hat or some other such item. Gotta see what I can afford. If I remember right, you're just across the state line and little north of Richmond. It'd be great if we could get something together about Richmond for the LWFF. I understand that 50 years ago it was one of THE top Pennsy railfanning hot spots. It'd be good if Rick Tipton or someone else could discuss the Panhandle in Columbus and Central Ohio. I need to start working on my map of Pennsy sites within east driving distance of Xenia. I also need to talk with the convention and visitors bureau about room rates and other details. Ya'll be talking railroads and I'll be worried about a lot of other things so, yeah, if it's done again I'd hope someone else could share the pain. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:48:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Re:T1 and Bowser steam locos Jeremy asked: >I was wondering which of the Bowser steam locomotive kits, along with >it's extra super detail kit, makes the best looking (read most realistic) >locomotive? I realize there may be many different responses on this one >but was just curious. Thanks. Jeremy, Right now? The T-1 is probably "best", but it represents a "rare" late Altoona built unit, just after construction with no portholes and a fully shrouded tender (approximately #5511-5525). The I1 is pretty accurate as well, although as noted the Bowser kits are all a little heavy in the back of the cab. Jerry asked: >Question: If there are no obstructions, does it seem feasible to turn >this unit on a 16" (scale 116') turntable? There would obviously be some >overhang at each end. Based on the wheelbase, you could get away with it, however, you'd better keep those leads well clear! >I am looking at Bowser turntables, and the next one up from 16" is 18" >(scale 130.5'). The turntable at Harrisburg was 125' which would equate >to about 17.25" in HO. I would suggest looking at an 18" table and cutting it down to 17.25. this will really give the flavor of the T-1 JUST fitting onto the table! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:29:09 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Models To quote Hank M: > For Electrics....I'd go with..... > P-5 boxcab.....besides the P-5 you could maybe bash a O or L class from > it. Maybe a B-1 if you were really daring. Hmmmm, why does one need to be "daring" for a B-1 rat? I've been threatening to make resin shells for some of these for a long time. Here's the scoop. The ends of the O-1, P-5, L-6 series were nearly identical and so could be used interchangably. The B-1 was narrower and would require a different end. The sides could be made up for all of the boxcabs easily. The hard part is the running gear...in each case different and somewhat complex! As for the P-5 modified...yeah, right! I ain't making that shell! (a manufacturer could use one mechanism for both a boxcab and modified). GHQ was talking about a pewter conversion for Nscale for GG-1 to FF-2 (ex GN) snappers. You might do the same in HO with resin/plastic on an existing GG-1 mechanism. One question - does anyone know of a good casting for the "standard PRR electric headlight" in HO scale? You know, the headlight on most of the boxcabs and the MP54? flat sides, radiused back side... Oooooooooh, someone mentioned a P2K quality GG-1....goose bumps baby!(a Viagra moment) As for Tom V...he wonders why lines west gets no respect? No Catenary! Happy "juice jockey" Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:44:21 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Desired Locomotive Survey Given the smaller nature of layouts in the U.K. the following selection may have some credence. It's less relevant to our N gauge layouts where they just seem to run trains around in circles. Diesel Baldwin BS10 (Around in the 1940s, plenty of them and suffiently different in appearance from the Athearn BS12 to merit a manufacturer's interest, perhaps). Electric I vaguely recall a post mentioning a source of PRR catenary some months ago.... but have yet to see a layout featuring it in the model railroad press. Are there any layouts with accurate PRR catenary around? For what its worth one or both versions of the P5a seem logical (preferably bound for appropriate layouts and not the collectors' shelves). Steam As well as any hypothetical new releases I would like to see: a) A revised drive system for the Bachmann K4 (that runs as sweetly as their 2-8-0) and which could revitalise an otherwise reasonable rtr product. Might renew some modellers' interest in the PRR into the bargain. b) I am delighted with Bowser's upgrading policy with locos such as the T1 but I would suggest they next turn their attention to producing three accurate new tenders (K4, I1 and L1) to replace the 'thing' they have at the moment, and also a gearbox drive system that hides the dreaded worm & gear. Given all that, the next loco I would like to see would be another switcher. For me it would have to be the C1 0-8-0 as I already have two brass B6sb's though a more altruistic wish would be to give priority to the 0-6-0. Third choice would be the N2 2-10-2 (for us Lines West folks)...... a large but neglected class. Rgards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:50:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser steam locos Amen to that, folks. Those old Pittman motors really earned their keep, and still do. For the price of one brass engine a person can put 5 or 6 Bowsers on the road, and not have to worry about what mood they're in. They'll run anytime they're needed to, and with the correct detailing and paint they need no apologies to anyone. Barry (gotta finish that M1) Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:02:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a St. Louis, Mo. In a message dated 98-11-17 20:51:24 EST, you write: > I don't know how many of you have seen the P5a recently, but its current > state is terrible. At least it is located undercover, but it is in the > corner of the car barn rusting away and "painted" a light green. To get > at it you have to squeeze into a very tight spot. You can forget about > any kind of decent picture. Hopefully one day this engine will go to the > Pennsy museum where it will be appreciated and can be seen. > Eric Very unlikely, given that museum's penchant for keeping equipment that clearly has no relevance to their museum. Remember the DL&W camelback? Many railroad museums are starting to trade foreign line equipment for relevant equipment, but not St. Louis. Those people would rather see that P5a rust away into nothing than let it go to the RRMP where it could join the DD1, GG-1 and B1 and be correctly interpreted. You may ask, am I a bit peeved? Answer is yes, I am. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:38:37 -0500 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] One More Note on the P5a Just one more thing on the P5a, I emailed the Pennsy Museum about the engine and the I in NY. The museum told me that given St. Louis' reputation for not giving up engines that it was not going to try. I wonder if the St Louis musem would be more likely to give the P5a away then the camelback, because of the lack of press and history surrounding the P5a? However, the museum did send me pictures of the I and a copy from that historical society stating that the engine was not for sale or trade. Weather like western NY can not be good for such a great engine. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:13:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR- Desired Loco Servey From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Me too! Bowser had the Arbor J1 dies. I guess they're shot. Pat Egan On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:51:13 -0500 "Sam Vastano" writes: >I only have 2 Votes for my choice Loco > >"J" 's > >"Q2" 's > >I like the big ones! > >Sam Vastano >svastano@ccia.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:55:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser steam locos In a message dated 11/18/98 4:55:44 PM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Those old Pittman motors really earned their keep, and still do. >> And broken in, they run smoothly, even at low speed. However, as I indicated several months ago, I have my T1 on hold hoping a helix humper can motor will be available for that loco. Two Pittman motors in one loco are not very DCC- friendly, cost-wise. I suppose I could investigate whether a 4 amp decoder would fit or add a second 1.5 amp decoder, but I have a Dallee sound system ready for installation and I am not wild about all the extra wires. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:45:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:T1 and Bowser steam locos In a message dated 11/18/98 12:55:08 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << The I1 is pretty accurate as well, although as noted the Bowser kits are all a little heavy in the back of the cab. >> Here I go again! Just what are you guys using for a tender for your I1s? This is the second post in as many days extolling the virtues of the Bowser I1. Definitely no criticism of the authors of either post, since I agree the loco looks and runs great (actually I have an old Cary boiler for mine) but to me it just doesn't look right without a 90F82 tender. (Yeah, I know some of you probably prefer a 210F82 variant, but that too isn't available although I have an extra brass one if I wanted to use it). Still on top of my wish list. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:13:08 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] East St. Louis question (mildly long) Trudging through the 1923 CT1000, I've reached the western end of the St. Louis Division. There, in East St. Louis, Illinois, the PRR had connections, mostly indirectly, with too many railroads. Most of them are listed just by their initials. That's the puzzle. Here in the left column are the initials given, in the right column my guesses for the names. Please fill in the blanks and correct any errors I've made. Caution! There are certainly some mis-prints in the CT1000, so some of these initials are incorrect. TRRA Terminal Railroad Association B&OSW Baltimore and Ohio Southwestern CP&StL ? C&EI Chicago and Eastern Illinois IC Illinois Central L&M ? Misprint for L&N ? MP Missouri Pacific Wabash What else? Sou Southern StLSW St. Louis Southwestern a/k/a Cotton Belt NYC&StL New York Chicago and St Louis V&C Belt ? C&A Chicago and Alton CB&Q Chicago Burlington and Quincy CRI&P Chicago Rock Island and Pacific L&N Louisville and Nashville MK&T Missouri Kansas and Texas ? I thought it was just MKT ? StLT&E ? StL&O'F St. Louis and O'Fallon StL&BE St. Louis and Belleville Electric StL&OR ? StL&O'R ? A&S Alton and Southern EStL&S ? East St. Louis and what ? M&O ? CCC&StL ? Yeah, the Big Four, or the Clover Leaf, or something, but just what are all those C's ? Cleveland ? Chicago ? Columbus ? Cincinnati ? Cucamunga ? I'm pretty sure the StL&OR and the StL&O'R are the same thing, but which is right and what is it anyway? The CT1000 is not quite the Bible one could wish. Here it mentions the "Wabash RR", there the "Wabash Ry". One division in Ohio claims a junction with "Mansfield Division", but there is no Mansfield Division. Sigh. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] East St. Louis question (mildly long) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:28:48 -0500 (EST) > CCC&StL > ? Yeah, the Big Four, or the Clover > Leaf, or something, but just what are all > those C's ? Cleveland ? Chicago ? > Columbus ? Cincinnati ? Cucamunga ? Bob, the _Centennial History_ provides some answers. Clover Leaf Road in the index immediately provides in parentheses: Toledo, St. Louis & Western, and the next index entry says: "consolidated with Nickel Plate (1923)". CCC&StL is Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis, purchased in 1899 by NYC. I remember reading in that tome of several midwestern RRs that both NYC and PRR had interests in that ultimately ended up going one way or the other; I thought CCC&StL was one of them, but the relevant pages do not bear this out - must have been another I was thinking of. As to remembering the city names, let us all recall that the fact that Columbus is the largest city in Ohio (in population and area) is only because it is a governmental city which has constantly appropriated for itself all of its suburbs (and now grown to the county limits, if I'm not mistaken, much like Philadelphia). Yet is is not today, and never was, the largest metropolitan area; that distinction fell to Cincinnati before the Civil War and to Cleveland after, where it remains to this day. Columbus was a grassy spot in the middle of the state, much like Harrisburg and Albany. Thus, the "business ends" of the CCC&StL and PCC&StL were the same: Cleveland or Pittsburgh, as appropriate, then Cincinnati, Chicago, and St Louis, identically in that order for both. Let's all remember again that it was the Civil War that made the upper Midwest what it is today. If you read the early chapters of the _Centennial History_, or Westhaffer's _History of the Cumberland Valley Railroad_, etc., you'll appreciate how many railroads, up to 1860, were aimed at New Orleans (CVRR), Cincinnati and St. Louis (PCC&StL, CCC&StL), and Pittsburgh (PRR, B&O, the latter thwarted for some time). These were the 4 largest cities west of the Alleghenies, with New Orleans being largest. Chicago was a several-horse and zero-stoplight hick town of some 1500 people in 1830, and not hugely larger for the 1840 and 1850 censuses (censi?? :-) :-) > The CT1000 is not quite the Bible one could wish. > Here it mentions the "Wabash RR", there the "Wabash > Ry". One division in Ohio claims a junction with > "Mansfield Division", but there is no Mansfield > Division. Sigh. We must recall that PRR documents were written by _people_ and were intended to be used right now. Probably most were written on a deadline. The people writing them were NOT historians aiming for recounting something with 100% accuracy (not that I'm saying all historians do that; nor am I'm saying that _history_ is the (mere) recounting of facts). Though the implicit goal was 100% accuracy (as it is in any typing job given to anyone), surely the writers recognized that errors are inherent, and that knowledgeable people (conductors, freight agents) would correct them in their current copies and for the next version. That experiential knowledge has been largely lost in the past 30 years. This causes future generations to put just a tad too much stock in original documents, especially given the fact that the same 30 years has made the task of _corroborrating information from more than one source_ much more difficult. The seeming propensity of the railroads to destroy any and all information that might make its way out (they seem to have been an early version of the Rose law firm, at least in so far as "outsiders" are concerned) has not helped. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:21:34 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] READING G-1 pacific (MANTUA) Just a heads-up for anyone who might be interested... If you go to ebay.com web site, type Mantua at the search prompt. There are two or three screens of Mantua items people are selling. There are currently TWO old brass Mantua 4-6-2 engines for sale. One is unpainted brass, and the other is lettered for New York Central. These engines are Reading prototype, class G-1. I USED to own one, and selling it had to have been one of the top ten dumbest things I ever did in my life. It ran superbly. I never once considered putting a can motor in it to replace the Pittman DC-71. It travelled smoothly and quietly at all speeds. It weighed a ton, and had unbelievable pulling power. Sadly, I am not in a position right now to bid on either of these pacifics. I would bet that they are as good as the one I owned. Detail was a bit sparce, but some quality time with a Bowser catalog would yield a list of Cary and Cal-Scale parts that would really dress one of those engines up. DOUG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:04:01 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey From: locoshop@juno.com Looking for Js and Q2s in steam. This is an add on--N8 cabin car!!!!!! Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 08:55:51 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/19/98 8:31 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) wrote: >With all the freight cars that the PRR built to its own standards did it >also own and operate the PS-1 boxcar. Intermountain makes a nicely detailed >PS-1 car and I wanted to know if it would be appropriate to operate this >car. If so are there any changes required to Pennsy-ize it? The PRR did own a small number of PS-1 cars. "Small" is a relative term. Nixon Enterprises markets the Intermountain PS-1 car in PRR with the "Merchandise Service" scheme applied. It features the aluminum colored band -- the first "MS" scheme. This scheme is incorrect for the PS-1, which only ever carried the third "MS" scheme -- the solid white band. However, the silver looks so good I had to pick one up! (You can find these cars at shows.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 8:31:05 EST From: Subject: [PRR] PRR PS-1 With all the freight cars that the PRR built to its own standards did it also own and operate the PS-1 boxcar. Intermountain makes a nicely detailed PS-1 car and I wanted to know if it would be appropriate to operate this car. If so are there any changes required to Pennsy-ize it? regards, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:33:37 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] Bowser Steam, I-1 tender The thing about Bowser steam engines that bugs me is that the boilers sit too high on the frames, especially the L-1. I have always thought that what Bowser sells as their USRA 32' tender looks very similar to what I have seen behind the I-1 engines. See p. 39 of Bowser's own catalog (15th edition) for an example of what I mean. As for the best looking Bowser steam engine... I run the risk of being shot, but I think that the USRA pacific is a very nicely detailed engine. And they finally got the right idea when they introduced that kit. Have all the detail part holes drilled, and supply the parts with the kit all in one shot. The USRA mike is pretty good too, but the wheelbase is too long for the Cary boiler, and the last set of drivers are hiding behind the front of the firebox... yuk. Bowser has supposedly redone the K-4 / L-1 boiler. It looks kind of fat. Anyone else? Comments? DOUG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:04:25 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Number Plates Gentlemen, Can anyone suggest the range of current prices for any of the following: PRR keystone locomotive number plate PRR keystone dihedral (T-1) locomotive number plate PRR round locomotive number plate M1a builders plate Lima diesel builders plate Alco diesel builders plate Baldwin diesel builders plate Thanks for the help. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:04:45 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey This is an add on--N8 cabin car!!!!!! I couldnt agree more!!!!!! I certainly hope Liberty is still doing the N8 because I can see buying at least 10-12 of them. At the Madison national convention I asked a representative of Bowser about the possibilities of doing the N8 and his comment to me was he didnt see a market for the N8. Sometimes I guess I just dont understand this business of model railroading. Did the N5 line of cabin cars do so bad that they didnt think the N8 would do good???? I cant believe that they wouldnt sell a lot of the N8 cabin car. It just seems like a natural follow up to the N5. Randy locoshop@juno.com on 11/19/98 09:04:01 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Looking for Js and Q2s in steam. This is an add on--N8 cabin car!!!!!! Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:07:27 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 From: locoshop@juno.com The information that I had said that they did only by a token 10 of these cars. Please correct me if I am wrong. On Thu, 19 Nov 98 8:31:05 EST writes: >With all the freight cars that the PRR built to its own standards did >it >also own and operate the PS-1 boxcar. Intermountain makes a nicely >detailed >PS-1 car and I wanted to know if it would be appropriate to operate >this >car. If so are there any changes required to Pennsy-ize it? > > >regards, > >Kris > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:51:24 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] SD40 From: locoshop@juno.com Yes this one is covered. I have communicated with Kato on the HO scale SD40 and they have said (as recently as 1 month ago) that thye are not planning a re-run of the SD40. A very good one can be completed with the RPP shell (Cannonize it though) and a drive off of a Kato SD45. These can be had for $75-80 in certain places. There are plenty of Reading units around and these have the black underframe (no paint needed). On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:37:04 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear writes: >On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, RICHARD ADER wrote: > >> Jerry, >> My vote for diesels would be SD40 > >Kato claims to be going to rerun their SD40 in HO. I think someone >makes >one in N. There's also the RPP shell in HO. This one's covered, IMHO. > >-D Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:00:27 -0600 Subject: [PRR] N5 and N5c scale drawings From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I am trying to locate good scale drawings of the N5 and N5c cabin car. I am wanting to start a TOTAL detailing project on a Bowser model and this would be the first step. I do not currently have internet access but would like any magazine info that I can get. Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] East St. Louis question (mildly long) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:05:46 -0500 (EST) vck@andrew.cmu.edu scrivit: > >Chicago was > > a several-horse and zero-stoplight hick town of some 1500 > > people in 1830, and not hugely larger for the 1840 and > > 1850 censuses > > Mark, while true that Chicago was not a huge place before the Civil War, it > had been an important transportation hub since the mid-1840s as the flow of > grain traffic shifted from the Mississippi valley to the canal system > connecting the Ohio Valley with the lakes and Erie Canal. Of course the > railroads all orienting to that point caused the manic growth after 1860, > but it was already a major grain market by the end of the 1850s. I'm sure > you've read George Rogers Taylor's seminal _The Transportation Revolution_, > a classic work from the 1950s that has stood the test of time. I'm not > sure, however, that you've read William Cronon's _Nature's Metropolis: > Chicago and the Great West_, a 1991 classic that should be on the reading Actually, I've not had the chance to read either. > list of anyone interested in Lines West. Cronon would argue that it was the > railroad and not necessarily the war that "made" Chicago. The first steam > powered grain elevator ... a major technology, that together with the > boxcar, transformed the grain from a crop to a commodity ... was established > in Chicago well before the war. 'Tis true that railroads made Chicago. But why did the rails go there? Surely _some_ rails would have gone there anyway, since geography (Lake Michigan) _forces_ a concentration of non-air transportation routes around its southern tip. So you immediately figure in New York, Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, and any western stuff from mid-Iowa on north as _necessarily_ directing itself to or toward Chicago. Philly, Pittsburgh, etc., and similarly situated places out west, it's a definite coin toss. Could have gone either way (and, in fact, did). My point was that in those situations, the Civil War (and its preceding troubles, which surely started influencing business decisions in the late 1850s, and possibly earlier) pushed more rails north because that's where the business went. It was inadvisable to build you cannon factory in Cincinnati. It _was_ advisable to build it in Pittsburgh, Y'town, or Cleveland, where you were safe from Confederate raids. The Ohio River towns lost big as a result of that war, and they have never made it up. As to New Orleans and that area, there is no specific geographic "squeeze" there. So N.O. has no inherent geographic superiority over, say, Vicksburg, or St. Louis. But St. Louis could easily have been coequal with Chicago as a rail center, just because of its central location-- yet, Chicago won out in a big way. This is what I'm arguing as being a side effect of the war. (And, to be honest, the Reconstruction, which is rather poorly named so far as economics goes.) > He points out early in his work that > Chicago's merchants were always connected to New York, not New Orleans, > because, by the 1830s (he establishes 1833 as the beginning of Chicago's > metropolitan era) New York was the major entepot for European trade. Arguing from the perspective of Chicago, New York would be a logical choice, of course. (Though I think people still forget the importance of N.O. as a port.) But reread what I said. I was not arguing from the perspective of Chicago merchants, but rather from the perspective of east coast railroad builders. Where were _they_ aiming? Also read the stuff in the early portion of the _Centennial History_ about the major efforts of _both_ PRR and NYC to get to Cincinnati. Chicago? Yes, it was there, but Cinci was the more important and immediate prize. > New > York, of course, was always the destination of mid-western grain ... it was > the overland transportation problem that kept New Orleans in the loop. I do not know when the Illinois River - Chicago River canal was built, but it did not take long. And given that the divide between the 2 watersheds is a mere 6 feet higher than the mean level of Lake Michigan (the Illinois River was, after all, in its former life, an _outflow_ of Lake Michigan), a canal in that location was the proverbial piece of cake, and water transportation was easily achieved. I'll have to read the book(s), but I hope the gentlemen give each transportation mode a fair shake. This is not always the case, as you know. (Nonrailroad trivia: similarly to the Illinois having been the outflow of Lake Michigan, the Maumee Maumee was once the outflow of Lake Erie. This made construction of the Maumee-Miami canal rather a snap, too, though not _quite_ so easy as Illinois's canal. If I'm not mistaken, the Maumee and the Wabash were the 2 that used to be the same river, until a combination of uplift and a newly reopened channel to the Atlantic, which we now call the Niagara/Lake Ontario/St. Lawrence, changed things. Oh, and that "created by the glaciers" thing? True, but leaves the wrong impression. The lakes were merely _filled_ by the glaciers. They were NOT _gouged_ by the glaciers. Continental rift did that. Our nice, "geologically stable" part of the country surely was not so way back then.) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:09:44 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 19 Nov, Jerry wrote: > The PRR did own a small number of PS-1 cars. "Small" is a relative term. It was some really small number, like a dozen or two. For the PRR, this is a *very* small car class. > Nixon Enterprises markets the Intermountain PS-1 car in PRR with the > "Merchandise Service" scheme applied. It features the aluminum colored > band -- the first "MS" scheme. This scheme is incorrect for the PS-1, > which only ever carried the third "MS" scheme -- the solid white band. Jerry, I don't think that the PS-1 ever carried any MS scheme, and that's from Brady McGuire's freight car lettering article "The Keystone" Volume 22, Issue 2, Summer 1988. If I have misread, or if McGuire was mistaken, please let us know! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 07:43:26 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] East St. Louis question (mildly long) ---Mark Bej wrote: >Columbus was a grassy spot in the > middle of the state, much like Harrisburg and Albany. "...middle of the state, much like Harrisburg..." indeed. Hrrmmph! The first time I found myself in Harrisburg, watching the local news, I was startled when their version of "central Pennsylvania" seemed to end just west of Camp Hill. "I wonder if these people have ever thought about why Centre County is called Centre County?" But then, growing up in Shippensburg, you were probably infected with the Richardson Dillworth "Western Pa? Is there anything out there besides bears?" virus at an early age. > > The CT1000 is not quite the Bible one could wish. >The people writing them were NOT historians aiming > for recounting something with 100% accuracy... "All things made by hands are flawed." Nonetheless, 'tis frustrating. >Though the implicit goal was 100% accuracy > (as it is in any typing job given to anyone), Are you referring to my recent spate of corrected Corphist files? Could happen to anyone. After all, I'm not a big corporation, with layers and layers of managers, proofreaders, editors; just a working stiff doing the best I can with what I got. I do this stuff late at night. Whine, snivvle, etc. >surely the writers recognized > that errors are inherent, I wonder. I have an image, perhaps erroneous, of Corporate America circa 1923 which does not include that recognition; or rather, admits the possibility that errors will occur, but only in inferior, poorly organized or incompetently administered businesses. > and that knowledgeable people (conductors, > freight agents) would correct them in their current copies and for the > next version. That experiential knowledge has been largely lost in > the past 30 years. Remember that this is the 1923 CT1000, 3/4 century old. I suspect that the loss was well advanced by 30 years ago. Further, I've concluded that by trying to use the CT1000 to work out a picture of how the many parts of the PRR interconnected, I'm using the CT1000 backwards from its intended purpose. I'm looking at it, hoping to find that there was a track from A to B, and at B it connected with the line from C to D. The intended audience knew perfectly well that the A to B Branch connected with the C-D Main just west of the station, but needed to find out exactly what siding number to write on this form, or just how far that siding was from the junction. > This causes future generations to put just a tad > too much stock in original documents, especially given the fact that > the same 30 years has made the task of _corroborrating information from > more than one source_ much more difficult. Amen. And thinking of the 75 years, Amen, Hallelujah! >The seeming propensity of > the railroads to destroy any and all information that might make its > way out has not helped. Right. But as you say, (or said before I snipped it), the documents were intended for day-to-day use, starting "right now". Why keep the old book, when it is now incorrect (and if it is not, why did we spend all that money printing the new one?) Indeed, it would be dangerous in some cases to keep the old book as someone might mistake it for the current one and do something in conflict with current practice. That could create a danger, and would violate our zero-tolerance for error policy. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] East St. Louis question (mildly long) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:41:51 -0500 (EST) robert netzlof scrivit: > ---Mark Bej wrote: > "...middle of the state, much like Harrisburg..." > indeed. Hrrmmph! > > The first time I found myself in Harrisburg, > watching the local news, I was startled when their > version of "central Pennsylvania" seemed to end just > west of Camp Hill. Similarly to how, for the Philly news, "central Pa." and "western Pa." are synonymous, and begin where the Paoli local ends?? :-) "I wonder if these people have > ever thought about why Centre County is called Centre > County?" True, it _is_ close to the center. (or centre!) But that is as much luck as anything else. Remember that the original Pennsylvania Colony had but 4 counties, Philadelphia, Chester (_based_ in Chester, then), Montgomery, and Bucks, with their county lines heading NW, resonably perpendicular to the Delaware River, way way away out into nowhere. Montgomery was then the "center" county of the 3 outlying ones, and only the future would have made it not so. > >Though the implicit goal was 100% accuracy > > (as it is in any typing job given to anyone), > > Are you referring to my recent spate of corrected > Corphist files? Not at all. I'm speaking of the clerks and secretaries that created the PRR documents. > >surely the writers recognized > > that errors are inherent, > that errors will occur, but only in inferior, poorly > organized or incompetently administered businesses. I really wonder. If anything, the guys up top complained that "good help was hard to get". If it wasn't blamed on the lower rungs' non-WASP ethnicity or something similar. (Remember that even to the end of its days the PRR, as much as we may like it, did not admit "ethnics", people whose last names end in a vowel, etc., into its upper echelons.) > > and that knowledgeable people (conductors, > > freight agents) would correct them in their current > copies and for the > > next version. That experiential knowledge has been > largely lost in > > the past 30 years. > > Remember that this is the 1923 CT1000, 3/4 century > old. I suspect that the loss was well advanced by 30 > years ago. Sure. I was referring to PRR documents in general, not your 1923 CT1000 specifically, and thus chose 1968 as the reference date. > all that money printing the new one?) Indeed, it > would be dangerous in some cases to keep the old book > as someone might mistake it for the current one and > do something in conflict with current practice. That > could create a danger, and would violate our > zero-tolerance for error policy. I am becoming more and more familiar with ISO 9000 and related stuff, and considerable amounts of stuff are written therein about maintenance of _current_ documentation. Nevertheless, it is my impression that RRs went out of their way to destroy superseded material and to _avoid_ storing a subset for historical purposes. I am willing to have my impression corrected if it truly was not so, and of course, I am NOT saying that NO railroad stored ANYTHING for posterity. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:13:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 The PRR owned 10 PS-1 class X48. However, the PRR version had a cushioned underframe which is not on the Intermountain. IM did all 10 road numbers. You could add the walthers cushion underframe to get the correct car. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 13:38:14 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/19/98 1:36 PM, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com (Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com) wrote: > Thats too bad to hear. I would have prefered the N8 to the N5 myself >but I can see why they did it as they did. Lets hope Liberty Models can >get there N8 out. I have three brass N8's but could use 8-12 more N8's for >the railroad. Joe hasn't been on the list for some time -- unless he's resubed -- so your comments fall on somewhat deaf ears. I agree that an N8 is needed. Hank Mummert did create a master for Liberty Model Productions. Hopefully Joe and his business WILL rebound and bring this to market. Sounds like a perfect kit for a cottage business. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:45:54 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] SD40 On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 locoshop@juno.com wrote: > Yes this one is covered. I have communicated with Kato on the HO scale > SD40 and they have said (as recently as 1 month ago) that thye are not > planning a re-run of the SD40. A very good one can be completed with the Uh, they *are* planning a rerun (they announced it somewhere) but haven't yet said when. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Grades & Helixes Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 13:28:10 -0500 From: Jerry (This is being cross-posted to both the PRR-Talk and MODELRR lists. Please respond direct. Thank you.) Was wondering what a maximum allowable grade might be for HO scale, on a hidden ramp (30"+ min. radius) between levels. Would be used by locomotives only...no trains. Power is mostly Proto 2000. Could an 8% grade work (rise 1" in 1')? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:36:15 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Rob, Thats too bad to hear. I would have prefered the N8 to the N5 myself but I can see why they did it as they did. Lets hope Liberty Models can get there N8 out. I have three brass N8's but could use 8-12 more N8's for the railroad. Randy Rob Schoenberg on 11/19/98 11:53:59 AM To: Randy Williamson/Marathon cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Last time I talked with the folks at Bowser they said that the sales of the N5 weren't quite as good as expected and that they thought that the PRR cabin car market was pretty much saturated. So probably no N8's from them... Rob http://prr.railfan.net This is an add on--N8 cabin car!!!!!! I couldnt agree more!!!!!! I certainly hope Liberty is still doing the N8 because I can see buying at least 10-12 of them. At the Madison national convention I asked a representative of Bowser about the possibilities of doing the N8 and his comment to me was he didnt see a market for the N8. Sometimes I guess I just dont understand this business of model railroading. Did the N5 line of cabin cars do so bad that they didnt think the N8 would do good???? I cant believe that they wouldnt sell a lot of the N8 cabin car. It just seems like a natural follow up to the N5. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 12:50:54 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg I beg to differ but the info I have is that there were 20 X48's numbered 47000 - 47019. For a bit more info on the X48's you can also check my web page: http://PRR.Railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X48 Rob prr.railfan.net > >The PRR owned 10 PS-1 class X48. However, the PRR version had a cushioned >underframe which is not on the Intermountain. IM did all 10 road numbers. >You could add the walthers cushion underframe to get the correct car. > >Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 12:53:59 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Last time I talked with the folks at Bowser they said that the sales of the N5 weren't quite as good as expected and that they thought that the PRR cabin car market was pretty much saturated. So probably no N8's from them... Rob http://prr.railfan.net This is an add on--N8 cabin car!!!!!! I couldnt agree more!!!!!! I certainly hope Liberty is still doing the N8 because I can see buying at least 10-12 of them. At the Madison national convention I asked a representative of Bowser about the possibilities of doing the N8 and his comment to me was he didnt see a market for the N8. Sometimes I guess I just dont understand this business of model railroading. Did the N5 line of cabin cars do so bad that they didnt think the N8 would do good???? I cant believe that they wouldnt sell a lot of the N8 cabin car. It just seems like a natural follow up to the N5. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:56:16 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] One More Note on the P5a Living in WNY as I do and having been to see the I on numerous occasions I can tell you that it is not a pretty sight to see that beauty in the condition she is in First let me point out that both organizations involved in this are fine groups who go out of their way to do whatever they can to preserve rail history in the Buffalo and Western NY area The WNYRHS (not affiliated with the NRHS) has had that loco for quite some time, while not knowing the exact details as I was out of the area at the time this all happened, the loco was the reason for the creation of the WNY RHS which "split" from the Niagara Frontier Chapter NRHS. The WNY RHS is more of an equipment oriented group while the NFCNRHS is more history and structure oriented. The loco became an "issue" in the NRHS' chapter which led to the split by the folks who organized the WNYRHS. I wholeheartedly agree that this loco should be sent somewhere that would have the resources and the ability to restore it to some kind of state other than which it is in now. The WNY RHS has at least attempted to hold back the ravages of the loco sitting out in the weather and have spot primed and painted the tender and have taken measures to keep the weather out of the cab itself. Whenever I have brought the subject up to folks I know from the group it is always "well we are working on it" type stuff, like I said the group is a great bunch of people who are trying to get stuff done and do a very good job at getting stuff together and have a long list of projects that have been extremely worthwhile I just don't know why they are holding on to the I at this time! On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Eric Lauterbach wrote: > Just one more thing on the P5a, I emailed the Pennsy Museum about the > engine and the I in NY. The museum told me that given St. Louis' > reputation for not giving up engines that it was not going to try. I > wonder if the St Louis musem would be more likely to give the P5a away > then the camelback, because of the lack of press and history surrounding > the P5a? However, the museum did send me pictures of the I and a copy > from that historical society stating that the engine was not for sale or > trade. Weather like western NY can not be good for such a great engine. > Eric > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:40:44 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:I1 Tender From: locoshop@juno.com Question: I had thought that the tender included with the new revision of the I1 had a different tender than the 90F82 (I never did totally understand the tender and their differences though). The new revision model has the tender with 2 3-axle trucks and is very long, looks rather good from the one I remember seeing, is this one correct? On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:45:14 EST Bobspf@aol.com writes: >Here I go again! Just what are you guys using for a tender for your >I1s? >This is the second post in as many days extolling the virtues of the >Bowser >I1. Definitely no criticism of the authors of either post, since I >agree the >loco looks and runs great (actually I have an old Cary boiler for >mine) but to >me it just doesn't look right without a 90F82 tender. (Yeah, I know >some of >you probably prefer a 210F82 variant, but that too isn't available >although I >have an extra brass one if I wanted to use it). >Still on top of my wish list. > >Bob Zoeller Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:37:44 -0500 From: DjM Subject: [PRR] Louisville and Indiana RR To conclude last week's discussion on the Louisville & Indiana Railroad, I thought I'd toss out this URL for those interested. It's a photo site, but gives you a good idea how the L&I turned Conrail's mess into a moneymaker (one that CSX wants to get their hands on). http://www.hirons.com/crund/lirc.html -=D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 98 15:30:10 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/19/98 3:06 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: ><< This scheme is incorrect for the PS-1, > which only ever carried the third "MS" scheme -- the solid white band. >> > >The X48 was delivered in the SK1A scheme, with script numeral. To my >knowledge they never carried the MS scheme, but I quit betting on those >things >a long time ago. I recall from another source I cannot find right now that >there were only 500 cars (as you say, small by Pennsy standards, but that >is a >relative term). All day people have been quoting only 10 PS-1 cars. I also recall there being many more. I also recall that a number (24-48 range) did get the third "Merchandise Service" scheme. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:16:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:I1 Tender In a message dated 11/19/98 11:47:33 AM Central Standard Time, locoshop@juno.com writes: << The new revision model has the tender with 2 3-axle trucks and is very long, looks rather good from the one I remember seeing, is this one correct? >> Don't have time to look up the designation, but almost all ran behind M1, M1A, or M1B class locos. Again, never say never, but I have never seen a photo of one behind an I1. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:10:25 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] Mantua READING G-1 not listed anymore I just checked ebay, and the two old READING G-1 pacifics aren't listed anymore. They must have sold. DOUG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:10:26 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] Mantua READING G-1 not listed anymore I just checked ebay, and the two old READING G-1 pacifics aren't listed anymore. They must have sold. DOUG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:06:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 In a message dated 11/19/98 8:02:01 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << This scheme is incorrect for the PS-1, which only ever carried the third "MS" scheme -- the solid white band. >> The X48 was delivered in the SK1A scheme, with script numeral. To my knowledge they never carried the MS scheme, but I quit betting on those things a long time ago. I recall from another source I cannot find right now that there were only 500 cars (as you say, small by Pennsy standards, but that is a relative term). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:38:34 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 Greetings, Ron is correct that there were only 20 PRR PS-1's, and they were the only ones Pennsy ever had with black ends, though they were not ordered that way. Chuck Friedlein Rob Schoenberg wrote: > > I beg to differ but the info I have is that there were 20 X48's numbered 47000 - 47019. > > For a bit more info on the X48's you can also check my web page: > http://PRR.Railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X48 > > Rob > prr.railfan.net > > > > >The PRR owned 10 PS-1 class X48. However, the PRR version had a cushioned > >underframe which is not on the Intermountain. IM did all 10 road numbers. > >You could add the walthers cushion underframe to get the correct car. > > > >Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:36:56 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 and N5c scale drawings Jeremy, The general elevation drawings for the original N5 are in a couple of the Car Builders Cyclopedias--1925 is one of them. Not sure where you could get the N5c drawings, though I'm sure there ar a few in various model RR pubs. Chuck Friedlein locoshop@juno.com wrote: > > Hello all, > > I am trying to locate good scale drawings of the N5 and N5c cabin car. I > am wanting to start a TOTAL detailing project on a Bowser model and this > would be the first step. I do not currently have internet access but > would like any magazine info that I can get. Thanks. > > Jeremy Helms > Omaha, Nebraska > locoshop@juno.com > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:08:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] East St. Louis question Oh boy! Another historical brain teaser. You guys are evil companions. I should know better by now, but... In a message dated 11/19/98 7:48:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Trudging through the 1923 CT1000, I've reached the > western end of the St. Louis Division. There, in East > St. Louis, Illinois, the PRR had connections, mostly > indirectly, with too many railroads. Most of them are > listed just by their initials. That's the puzzle. > Here in the left column are the initials given, in > the right column my guesses for the names. Please > fill in the blanks and correct any errors I've made. > > Caution! There are certainly some mis-prints in the > CT1000, so some of these initials are incorrect. > > TRRA Terminal Railroad Association > B&OSW Baltimore and Ohio Southwestern -------------------trivia: was the Ohio & Mississippi in Civil War times > CP&StL ? -------------------perhaps Chicago, Peoria & St. Louis. Drury says it was sold piecemeal in 1924 to Chicago & Illinois Midland and to Litchfield & Madison. > C&EI Chicago and Eastern Illinois > IC Illinois Central > L&M ? Misprint for L&N ? ------------ how about Litchfield & Madison. IIRC merged by C&NW about 1947. I suppose if they wanted to refer to the Louisville & Nashville, they would have called it the LH&St.L (Louisville, Henderson & St. Louis) or by the LH&StL's nickname, "the Texas". Just to prove how long these nicknames stick, there's a yard in Louisville still called the Texas Yard, although the LH&StL hasn't run out of it this century. > MP Missouri Pacific > Wabash What else? > Sou Southern > StLSW St. Louis Southwestern > a/k/a Cotton Belt > NYC&StL New York Chicago and St Louis --------------- aka Nickel Plate, newly freed (1922?) from the Vanderbilt/NYC family and becoming a part of the Van Sweringen holdings, a la Erie and C&O. > V&C Belt ? --------------- don't know. V is evocative of Vandalia or Venice. > C&A Chicago and Alton > CB&Q Chicago Burlington and Quincy > CRI&P Chicago Rock Island and Pacific > L&N Louisville and Nashville > MK&T Missouri Kansas and Texas > ? I thought it was just MKT ? > StLT&E ? ------------------St. Louis Troy & Eastern (to Illinois Terminal ca. 1924) > StL&O'F St. Louis and O'Fallon -------------------to C&EI 1954 (had already been abandoned earlier, though) > StL&BE St. Louis and Belleville Electric -------------------to IC 1961 > StL&OR ? > StL&O'R ? -------------------probably both are the O'Fallon again > A&S Alton and Southern > EStL&S ? East St. Louis and what ? --------------------East St. Louis & Suburban, mostly abandoned 1932, some track became St. Louis & Belleville Electric. > M&O ? -------------- Mobile & Ohio, later merged with Gulf Mobile & Northern to form GM&O > CCC&StL > ? Yeah, the Big Four, or the Clover > Leaf, or something, but just what are all > those C's ? Cleveland ? Chicago ? > Columbus ? Cincinnati ? Cucamunga ? ----------------The final Big Four was Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago, and St. Louis, formed 1889. A previous Big Four was the Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis & Chicago, formed 1880. Then there was the "Bee Line" (Cleveland Columbus, Cincinnati & Indianapolis), which incidentally answers the question I asked Tom Vondruska about whether it is proper to say the Bee Line came into Columbus (Tom, your usage was clearly correct. This crow tastes lousy). George Drury notes (Historical Guide to North American Railroads) that the CIStL&C "first Big Four" and the "Bee Line" formed the "second Big Four" CCC&StL in 1889. Note: ca. 1894, under Melville Ingalls, the Big Four built its new headquarters building in CINCINNATI. Don't know what year HQ moved to Cleveland. Need I mention that the initials CCC&StL appeared all over NYC property from Cleveland to St. Louis and down to the Ohio River? BTW I really like the principle that Mark Bej points out. All those names in CCC&StL (Big Four) and PCC&StL (Panhandle) can be confusing. But both the names of these two dire competitors are of the form XCC&StL, where X is the origin point on their parent's line to Chicago (Cleveland/NYC, Pittsburgh/PRR), and then in geographic order west -- Cincinnati, Chicago, & St. Louis. This and track gage are probably the only things the PRR and the NYC ever did alike . Rick Tipton Secure in the knowledge that I only need to know 137 reporting marks to model 1968 :^) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:51:54 -0500 From: steve long Subject: [PRR] East St. Louis question (mildly long) Trudging through the 1923 CT1000, I've reached the western end of the St. Louis Division. There, in East St. Louis, Illinois, the PRR had connections, mostly indirectly, with too many railroads. Most of them are listed just by their initials. That's the puzzle. Here in the left column are the initials given, in the right column my guesses for the names. Please fill in the blanks and correct any errors I've made. Caution! There are certainly some mis-prints in the CT1000, so some of these initials are incorrect. TRRA Terminal Railroad Association B&OSW Baltimore and Ohio Southwestern CP&StL Chicago, Peoria, and St.Louis (at least part of it went to Rock Island) C&EI Chicago and Eastern Illinois IC Illinois Central L&M ? Litchfield & Madison bought by Chicago & Northwestern MP Missouri Pacific Wabash What else? Sou Southern StLSW St. Louis Southwestern a/k/a Cotton Belt NYC&StL New York Chicago and St Louis, NickelPlateRoad,nee,Toledo,St.Louis&Western V&C Belt ? C&A Chicago and Alton GM&O predecessor, controlled by B&O CB&Q Chicago Burlington and Quincy CRI&P Chicago Rock Island and Pacific L&N Louisville and Nashville MK&T Missouri Kansas and Texas ? I thought it was just MKT ? StLT&E ?St. Louis, Troy & Eastern Illinois Terminal predecessor StL&O'F St. Louis and O'Fallon " " StL&BE St. Louis and Belleville Electric " " StL&OR ? StL&O'R ? A&S Alton and Southern EStL&S ? East St. Louis and what ? M&O ?Mobile and Ohio GM&O predecessor CCC&StL----------Cleveland,Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway BIG FOUR !! I'm pretty sure the StL&OR and the StL&O'R are the same thing, but which is right and what is it anyway? The CT1000 is not quite the Bible one could wish. Here it mentions the "Wabash RR", there the "Wabash Ry". One division in Ohio claims a junction with "Mansfield Division", but there is no Mansfield Division. Sigh. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:43:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 you are correct 20 is the correct number. This key board just doesn't type what I think. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:57:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 and N5c scale drawings In a message dated 11/19/98 6:22:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: << The general elevation drawings for the original N5 are in a couple of the Car Builders Cyclopedias--1925 is one of them. Not sure where you could get the N5c drawings, though I'm sure there ar a few in various model RR pubs. Chuck Friedlein locoshop@juno.com wrote: > > Hello all, > > I am trying to locate good scale drawings of the N5 and N5c cabin car. I > am wanting to start a TOTAL detailing project on a Bowser model and this > would be the first step. I do not currently have internet access but > would like any magazine info that I can get. Thanks. > > Jeremy Helms > Omaha, Nebraska > locoshop@juno.com > >> I believe the April 1982 Model RR has drawings of the N5c. I remember there was a kitbashing articl on turning 2 tyco cabooses into an N8, and N5c. I may be wrong about the date but i know it was 1982. I was 9. Brian J Carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:38:24 -0500 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey As more and more desirable units are being made, the long neglected FM freight units (C Liners) and passenger units (Erie Builts) must be at or close to the top of everyone's list. They are on my list. However, they must be high quality! Low quality units are already available. I thought I read on one of the reports from this year's Chicago MRIA show (the D & S Hobbies report?) that Life Like was going to do the freight units. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:33:17 -0800 Subject: [PRR] New and old subjects From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Hey all, 1) Put in my vote for the E33 and E44 models (yes, I model the VGN too). Second or third that motion put forth by Hank Mummert. Maybe a resin boiler conversion for the Bachman consolidated. Drivers seem fairly close. Comments? 2) N SCALERS! Have any of you tried any of J'n'J trains' cast metal loco and car kits? They make the PRR pass shark, S12, Erie Builts, C-liners, et all. WKWalthers lists them but they ain't all in stock. I'm ah itchin' to try some--would like some feed back. Address for a catalog would be great. I don't have a listing in my retail directory for hobby shops. 3) Does anyone have a schematic for the track layout where the PRR's electric lines entered and ended on the RF&P's Pot yard? I have two books with over views of the yard, but it's too small to get an accurate picture ( I have the RF&P--the Capital Cities Route by Griffin, Jr.; and the other by two authors, one of which is Deane Meander). I need to model just the interchange (not the whole yard) between PRR/ Beano and the RF&P/ACL as a return route for my Delmarva carfloat's Norfolk exchange back to Wilmington, DE via the NEC. 4) At Wilmington DE shops there was an ALCo RSD 4/5 shown in the Diesel Era magazine about 2 or 3 issues back. It did not have train control or MU, so could it have traveled south of the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal onto the Delmarva Secondary, or is Train Control needed in this territory? Anyone want to stab at this one? SGT York ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:55:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 The PRR had 20 PS-1 class X48 cars. They were built 2-54 and delivered with the SK1a script numerals. The MS3 scheme was introduced in May 1954. According to Brady McGuire's article in the Keystone (the definitive work on boxcar paint schemes) "It is believed that very few cars were actually repainted in this new "SK" version " [of the MS3 scheme]. The only paint diagrams and photos I have seen are X29, X40a and X41b. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 18:49:54 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: [PRR] New and old subjects > 2) N SCALERS! Have any of you tried any of J'n'J trains' cast metal > loco > and car kits? They make the PRR pass shark, S12, Erie Builts, > C-liners, > et all. WKWalthers lists them but they ain't all in stock. I'm ah > itchin' to try some--would like some feed back. Address for a catalog > > would be great. I don't have a listing in my retail directory for > hobby > shops. Hello Sgt. York, I'm quite aware of JnJ trains as I have one body shell in N-scale of an RF-15 freight shark. It is actually a copy from the RainTree Products shell. I have heard from two hobby shops and two different model making companies (Fine N-scale was one, I forget the other) that the person running that operation was making copies off of other manufacturer's models. For example, he knew that I was interested in finding a low cost set of Milwaukee Hiawatha cars, especially the tail car with its unusual "beavertail" design. He told me straight up that he was making copies off of a set of brass cars from either Hallmark or Challenger. I don't think he exactly had their permission. He's got a number of shells, including an N-5c caboose in N-scale. I wanted a shell of a Milwaukee ribbed-side caboose but I'm a little cautious.......... I also bought a BP-20 from JnJ and it was a real dissappointment. He cut an RF-15 shell and stretched with another shell. I just saw an ad in the MR mag (Dec) for a Fairbanks-Morris Erie-built engine from a different source and they have a website. The shells look pretty nice! What sort of paint scheme did these locos have? At $15, it seemed pretty reasonable .......just need a PA unit eith from Concor or LifeLike or Kato..... Can anybody either refute or support my comments on JnJ? I'd like to be sure I'm not flaming anybody without proper evidence. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 and N5c scale drawings Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:41:30 -0600 Jeremy--Mainline Modeler December 1995 has an article by Ed Martin on detailing the N5 and N5b. Ed did a great job in the article; the cars look great. The hardest part is replacing Bowser's cast ladders. Much of what he did would apply to the N5c, too. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: locoshop@juno.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:37 AM Subject: [PRR] N5 and N5c scale drawings >Hello all, > >I am trying to locate good scale drawings of the N5 and N5c cabin car. I >am wanting to start a TOTAL detailing project on a Bowser model and this >would be the first step. I do not currently have internet access but >would like any magazine info that I can get. Thanks. > >Jeremy Helms >Omaha, Nebraska >locoshop@juno.com > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:I1 Tender Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:12:53 -0600 Bob and Jeremy--You are right: never say never when speaking Pennsy! The long tender like Bowser's and the I1 were in fact an accurate but rare combination. The vast majority of photos of an I1 with a long tender show a tender with welded construction, the 210F82A or B. The Bowser tender, riveted sides, is a 210F82. I t was more common behind Mountains and is the tender the M1A's were built with. However, a number of these were built woithout engines. Caloroso's "Pennsylvania Railroad Elmira Branch" in a late 30's or 40's photo shows 4612 on page 63 with this tender. The Keystone, Vol. XVI No. 2, June 83, p. 18, and Vol. 22 No. 1, Spring 89, p. 50, show 4629 at different locations in the 50's. Look closely for the rivets along the top of the sides and at the lower front corners. Carleton's "Pennsy Steam A to T" also shows an I1 with unreadable number with a 210F82 on p. 88. Bowser's new 130P75, a good model but not perfect, could be used with an I1 as a 130F82. This was a more common combination, particularly on the Elmira Branch. One example is 4524 which is shown in a couple of places in Caloroso's book as well as in several other publications. The only difficulty would be coming up with an accurate doghouse. Sure would like to see somebody (Miracle?) do a 90F82. BTW, those photos on p. 50 in the Spring 89 Keystone are among my favorites. 1954 and not a diesel or shadow keystone in sight. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:I1 Tender >In a message dated 11/19/98 11:47:33 AM Central Standard Time, >locoshop@juno.com writes: > ><< The new revision > model has the tender with 2 3-axle trucks and is very long, looks rather > good from the one I remember seeing, is this one correct? >> > >Don't have time to look up the designation, but almost all ran behind M1, M1A, >or M1B class locos. Again, never say never, but I have never seen a photo of >one behind an I1. > >Bob Zoeller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:34:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 In a message dated 11/19/98 5:22:06 PM Central Standard Time, ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: << Ron is correct that there were only 20 PRR PS-1's, and they were the only ones Pennsy ever had with black ends, though they were not ordered that way. >> Going through my library, I cannot find documentation of 500 cars either. I remember the number--now what car was it referring to? :-). Keystone, Autumn 1986 has brief article citing 20 cars and referring to the various model manufacturer's versions, none of which were apparently entirely correct at that time. There are two photos of cars with the SK1A on the back cover of that issue. Walthers produced the paint and lettering scheme, including black ends, and I have the car in storage somewhere, but I seem to recall it was not a PS1. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:23:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New and old subjects In a message dated 11/19/98 9:15:14 PM Central Standard Time, relliott@mail.telis.org writes: << I just saw an ad in the MR mag (Dec) for a Fairbanks-Morris Erie-built engine from a different source and they have a website. The shells look pretty nice! What sort of paint scheme did these locos have? >> Only one scheme during their life, to my knowledge. Passenger or freight use, they had the single narrow stripe on DGLE. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:12:19 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 and N5c scale drawings Brian, You are correct; it was the April 1982 issue of MR. The article is on page 79, ans is about kitbashing the Tyco cabooses into a reasonably good PRR N8 (drawing is of the N*), with some info. on the N5c. Chuck FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/19/98 6:22:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: > > << The general elevation drawings for the original N5 are in a couple of > the Car Builders Cyclopedias--1925 is one of them. Not sure where you > could get the N5c drawings, though I'm sure there ar a few in various > model RR pubs. > > Chuck Friedlein > > locoshop@juno.com wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > I am trying to locate good scale drawings of the N5 and N5c cabin car. I > > am wanting to start a TOTAL detailing project on a Bowser model and this > > would be the first step. I do not currently have internet access but > > would like any magazine info that I can get. Thanks. > > > > Jeremy Helms > > Omaha, Nebraska > > locoshop@juno.com > > >> > I believe the April 1982 Model RR has drawings of the N5c. I remember there > was a kitbashing articl on turning 2 tyco cabooses into an N8, and N5c. > I may be wrong about the date but i know it was 1982. I was 9. > > Brian J Carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:29:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 and N5c scale drawings To All, The Model Railroader article will make a good stand in N-8 but it requires too many cuts. My article in Mainline Modeler reduces the cuts and gets length correct. But alas it too is out dated and needs readdressed. I would love to find the time to redo it, but like the rest of the gang I want to see what Hank has created before I start the cutting all over again. 3^) Has anyone ever considered the N-5f? I was a neat one of a kind, but I remember seeing it in Midland, PA in the early 70's when back home visiting my grandparents. I think my brother has the photo of it somewhere. Greg Martin PS Bob I am still on the hunt for the old original Mantua underframes for you but have found nothing yet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:13:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1(reply) Hey Yuze Gize, Pennsy owned 20 PS-1 40' box cars from a very obscure lot (8160) of 100 cars that were broken up over several different roads like BAR, NYC, C&O, N&W, WP and others. They had a cushioned underframe and an 8 foot 6 panel Superior door. It's biggest contribution to the Pennsy was the introduction of the "Calendar Stylized Numerals" on a factory production car, numbered 47000 - 47019. They were delivered to Pennsy in early 1954 in the new "Shadowed Keystone" paint scheme. This was the only group of box cars purchased by Pennsy from Pullman Standard during the 50's. If you all build one run it with a P&WV car for the true Pittsburgh fan and say they are running in coil steel service. Greg Martin Love them PS-1 40' box cars and always will. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 10:09:31 EST From: Subject: [PRR] PS-1 boxcars Would someone please confirm that all of these cars had their ends painted black? Ya think that Intermountain would go the extra step and paint the cars ends black on their PRR PS-1s and not force we consumers to do it for them. Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 and N5c scale drawings Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:46:04 PST I am still on the hunt for the old original Mantua underframes for you >but have found nothing yet ________________________________________ Oh, the PAIN! Working with the original Mantua metal underframe to kitbash a scale-looking N8 can get very tiresome. They used some kind of steel that could be from re-tooled artillery barrels. It's rock hard. I've gone through more cutting tools, files, and drills, than I can remember working on these underfames. Give me the later-model (TYCO-era) plastic underframe anytime. Enough lead weight can be added to make it run well, and it's easier to do all the steps, end details, railings, and stuff. I used to see literally hundreds of these a day passing out of Enola up the Middle Division. Most were pretty well grime covered. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, modeling from near C&O Milepost FM Zero ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:16:37 EST Subject: [PRR] IHC Passenger Cars Hi all, Does anyone have a clue what IHC is doing with there "type" of passenger cars? Under CORRUGATED SIDES, they list in Walthers both a group labeled Pennsylvania and a group labeled Pennsylvania "the fleet of modernism." In addition they list the Congressional. In the past there was only one set plus the Congressional called 1940 Corrugated Side Series. Under SMOOTH SIDES, they also list two groups; Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania "fleet of modernism." Before there was only one set under 1930 Smoothside series. Walthers does not show any Heavyweight Series. Has any one seen these new cars? Do they match the previous series? When I called IHC, I learned little from the person on duty. Thanks, Jerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:41:01 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey From: locoshop@juno.com They did say at the national that they were going to do one. I have seen this confirmed by Jim Six who works very closely with P2K and Life Like. Due late next year, yes before the long awaited GP30 is to be released. On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:27:51 -0500 "Miracle Castings Inc." writes: > >Hi Greg! I keep hearing that Life Like is going to make these, but >when I >check their web site, there's no mention of it at all. Where is this >information coming from? Even if they are, we are probably going to go >ahead >with ours, as it's designed to be able to reproduce any unit used on >any >road, due to interchangable parts. I feel there'll probably still be >a >market for it, if it's priced right. Regards! > >Pat Lawless >>Pat and All, >> Save the resin or adjust the molds as Life Like will be releasing >the FM >>CFA-16-44. I would rather see your money in vested in something that >will >>sell and make you big profits. >> >> Here's my choice: >> >>Diesels: >>1) FM FPA-20 FM Erie builts (there were more of these than PA's >and >BP-20's) >> >>Steam; >>1) L-1s with a "Bachmann like drive" >> >>Greg Martin Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC Passenger Cars Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 11:37:50 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/20/98 11:16 AM, ARRJERRY@aol.com (ARRJERRY@aol.com) wrote: >Does anyone have a clue what IHC is doing with there "type" of passenger >cars? >Under CORRUGATED SIDES, they list in Walthers both a group labeled >Pennsylvania and a group labeled Pennsylvania "the fleet of modernism." In >addition they list the Congressional. In the past there was only one set >plus >the Congressional called 1940 Corrugated Side Series. >Under SMOOTH SIDES, they also list two groups; Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania >"fleet of modernism." Before there was only one set under 1930 Smoothside >series. >Walthers does not show any Heavyweight Series. >Has any one seen these new cars? Do they match the previous series? >When I called IHC, I learned little from the person on duty. First, be aware that only a few of these cars are PRR prototypes. Also be wary of car names vs. paint schemes. Second, there are more variants available as single cars than there are the sets that Walthers offers. I'm a bit confused by the listing your give vs. the prototype. The "Fleet of Modernism", I believe, should only be available in the Smoothsides. Any corrugated cars with "FoM" paint would have been older, "betterment" cars retrofitted for "FoM" service. Andy Miller previously commented on the IHC cars. You can find his comments by doing a search on the list archive: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ or read a summary at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PS-1 boxcars Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 11:32:26 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/20/98 10:09 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) wrote: >Would someone please confirm that all of these cars had their ends painted >black? Ya think that Intermountain would go the extra step and paint the >cars ends black on their PRR PS-1s and not force we consumers to do it for >them. Yes, ends were black. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: Re: [PRR] Desired Locomotives Survey Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:27:51 -0500 Hi Greg! I keep hearing that Life Like is going to make these, but when I check their web site, there's no mention of it at all. Where is this information coming from? Even if they are, we are probably going to go ahead with ours, as it's designed to be able to reproduce any unit used on any road, due to interchangable parts. I feel there'll probably still be a market for it, if it's priced right. Regards! Pat Lawless >Pat and All, > Save the resin or adjust the molds as Life Like will be releasing the FM >CFA-16-44. I would rather see your money in vested in something that will >sell and make you big profits. > > Here's my choice: > >Diesels: >1) FM FPA-20 FM Erie builts (there were more of these than PA's and BP-20's) > >Steam; >1) L-1s with a "Bachmann like drive" > >Greg Martin > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:10:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Info. on PRR Business Car #2821 Does anyone have any information or photos of PRR business car # 2821 ? It should have been a wooden car used during the early 1900's. I've seen a couple of pieces of silver from the car but it does not show up in any of the resources that I have concerning private cars. Thanks !!!!!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:07:14 EST Subject: [PRR] 1999 PRR Calendar I've heard that the old Audio Visual style PRR calendar is out for 1999 and that they are being sold at the Strasburg Railroad. Does anyone have any further information or live close enough to Strasburg to check ? Is there a mail order address ? Thanks, Andrew Sentipal ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:39:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 PRR Calendar Hi to Andy and all. The calendars are definitely out. Several vendors had them at the GATS Train Show last Sat / Sun in Fort Washington, PA. Cost was $11, give or take a few $ as I remember. I expect them to be in the local hobby stores in the Philly and South Jersey area soon. If I see an address-by-mail, I'll get it posted for those who can't find them locally. Good to see them out again. Same style as before. I was pleasantly surprised. Carl ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:59:56 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Re: E44 From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:17:39 -0500 bobsin@nac.net writes: >Saw your support for the E44 and E33. There was a brass version once, Alco Models >maybe? Yepper! Alco it was. Saw customer bring one in the shop not long ago. You can get them for under $200. I'm game. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. 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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:37:29 -0500 From: DjM Subject: [PRR] tidbit This little tidbit of information is from Norfolk Southern's latest Implementation Update. --- Here are some Conrail predecessor lines and the number of present Conrail employees who once worked for them: Pennsylvania Railroad 8,533 New York Central 2,398 Erie Lackawanna 1,243 Reading 630 Lehigh Valley 400 Monongahela Railway Company 158 Central of New Jersey 146 Indiana Harbor Belt 97 Penn Central 82 Merchants Despatch 50 Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Line 43 Chicago River & Indiana 25 Akron Barberton Belt 15 Detroit Terminal 10 New York & Long Branch 7 Dayton Union 4 Cleveland Union Terminal 2 Penn Truck Lines 3 Lehigh & Hudson River 1 --- -=D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:25:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 In a message dated 11/20/98 12:48:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << cover of that issue. Walthers produced the paint and lettering scheme, including black ends, and I have the car in storage somewhere, but I seem to recall it was not a PS1. >> The Walthers car was the PS-1 and the paint was pretty good, however i think the door was the wrong size. I have one on my layout. I don't remember the # series though. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:22:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC Passenger Cars In a message dated 11/20/98 11:27:27 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Any corrugated cars with "FoM" paint would have been older, "betterment" cars retrofitted for "FoM" service. >> I have been informed via this list that the South Wind corrugatged cars were plain tuscan without the FOM scheme. I would sure like to see a color photo of this train priot to 1946 to .verify that. However, I do know that new corrugated coaches and diners were produced in 1939 in the FOM scheme. See the Trainshed Cyclopedia reprints and also refer to pages 58 and 59 of the Painting and Lettering guide. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 21:42:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] East St. Louis question (mildly long) In a message dated 11/19/98 12:38:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Also read the stuff in the early portion of the _Centennial History_ about the major efforts of _both_ PRR and NYC to get to Cincinnati. Chicago? Yes, it was there, but Cinci was the more important and immediate prize. >> When thinking about history, many do so with a map of today in their heads. In 1871, when the Pennsylvania Co. and Pennsy Lines West was formed, everything west of the Ozarks and the upper Mississippi was generally known as "The Great American Desert, there was only one E-W coast-to-coast rail line and it was less than one year old and Oklahoma was the infamous lawless Indian Territory. In a very real sense, the civilized world in 1870 ended at the Mississippi River. Chicago came into its own during the 1870s as the frontier was pushed west from the Mississippi and the wealth of the land began flowing back east. It was all triggered by completion of railroads. The cattle drives began in 1869 once the Union Pacific extended far enough west that moving the cattle overland to the railhead became the most ECONOMICAL method of getting cattle to market. This ready supply of beef needed stock yards and slaughter houses to get it to market so the start of the Cattle drive cause the Chicago stockyards to boom. Chicago was the place because it was simply the deep water port that was nearest to the new sources of wealth. Railroad was still pretty new fangled in 1870. Much of the bulk commodity shipments and a many long distance travelers heading back east left Chicago in lake shipping. Nearness to the hostilities was not the only reason that cities in the border states suffered. Feelings about the war remained strong for decades after Appomattox. The Republican Party began nearly 80 years of dominance of national politics that wasn't disturbed until FDR's election in 1932. Many in the border states, particularly Missouri, suffered at the hands of the Union Army, especially those in areas of units commanded by radical abolitionists and voted Democrat for more than 100 years. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Gehrett" Subject: RE: [PRR] 1999 PRR Calendar Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:28:54 -0600 Not sure if this is the calendar you're talking about, but I'm looking at mine right now. They have a website and you can order it online (http://www.cedco.com/c_trains.htm). Their address is: Cedco Publishing Company 100 Pelican Way San Rafael, Ca 94901 sales@cedco.com www.cedco.com BTW, I don't have any affiliation with them, just passing on the info. Jim Gehrett Elmhurst, IL Jgehrett@uss.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:38:09 -0500 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PS-1 The PRR Color Guide Vol 2 shows #47001 as one of only 20 built for PRR; 47000 - 47019 in 1954. Originally, the ends were black, but repaints were not painted that way. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] DONE: freight schedules Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:59:00 -0500 (EST) Gents, the 1960 freight train schedules, all 419 of them, are DONE Please browse http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ for yourself. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 21:59:02 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PS-1 boxcars Kris, Consider it confirmed. All 20 of the PRR PS-1 box cars were delivered with black ends. Pennsy didn't order them that way, but P-S just followed their own standard practice of doing it. Chuck Friedlein kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > > Would someone please confirm that all of these cars had their ends painted > black? Ya think that Intermountain would go the extra step and paint the > cars ends black on their PRR PS-1s and not force we consumers to do it for > them. > > Kris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:33:07 EST Subject: [PRR] NX23 update, Helper District west of Columbus? To all. Spent the day with the folks in Urbana, Ohio, who're restoring the NX23. They're really excited. Phil Ritter of the Philly PRRT&HS chapter's sending me a copy of Blandone's High Line piece on the NX23. If any one else has any information about this cabin car, give a holler so we can get it to them. They had a question for me I couldn't answer: was there a helper district on the Panhandle Columbus Div. Columbus-Chicago freight ? They they've found remains of a turntable and stock yards along the Panhandle west of town. They they've been told that there was a 4% grade west of Urbana and that the turntable turned the helpers. Urbana sits on high ground near the divide separating not only the Miami and Scioto valleys but the Great Lake and Ohio River watersheds. It near the highest elevation in Ohio. And tit down hill all the way to the Miami River at Piqua the next county over, about 20 miles west. There's a grade but were there helpers? Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:47:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser steam locos Bob Zoeller wrote: << And broken in, they run smoothly, even at low speed. However, as I indicated several months ago, I have my T1 on hold hoping a helix humper can motor will be available for that loco. Two Pittman motors in one loco are not very DCC- friendly, cost-wise. I suppose I could investigate whether a 4 amp decoder would fit or add a second 1.5 amp decoder, but I have a Dallee sound system ready for installation and I am not wild about all the extra wires.>> In the new products column of the latest issue of Model Railroading is a listing from ALCO Products for a "DCC-compatible 'Quick Kit' remotoring kit with two motors for the Bowser T1. Part number #181000, $79.95". This should be good news for several people on the list who have expressed an interest in putting can motors in the T1. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: E44 Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:39:22 -0500 The only problem with the ALCO Model was that it was noisy and the trucks shorted to the frame on uneven track. File the frame were it hits the truck frame, and it will run smooth. A good can motor should take care of the noise. Mine runs great ... now! Bill ---------- > From: staffsgtyork@juno.com > To: bobsin@nac.net; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Re: E44 > Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 8:59 PM > > > > On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:17:39 -0500 bobsin@nac.net writes: > >Saw your support for the E44 and E33. There was a brass version once, > Alco Models > >maybe? > > Yepper! Alco it was. Saw customer bring one in the shop not long ago. > You can get them for under $200. I'm game. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:30:17 Subject: [PRR] JnJ Hi Roger and list members, Roger wrote ( in part): > Can anybody either refute or support my comments on JnJ? I'd like to be > sure I'm not flaming anybody without proper evidence. I've dealt with JnJ before and had many problems, so I would not recommend them at all. I'll supply details of my experience upon request. He offers a lot of N scale items which sound interesting, but given my experiences I'd recommend staying away. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:14:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Brass PA/PB/PA I have a set of Overland Pennsy PA's I'd like to sell to someone. They are mint, unpainted in the original boxes. The numbers are OMI-5748 (2ea PA) and OMI-5749 (1ea PB). They are all powered and late 1950's versions with the small number boards and trainphone antennas. Included are 2 sets of Micro Scale 87-677 5 stripe gold leaf decals. I will only sell them as a complete set for $1000.00 P&H included. If interested please e-mail. Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:00:31 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC Passenger Cars (kinda long reply) Jerry, Here's a bit of information on the IHC cars--old and new--from sombody who used to work for IHC (1990-1993). The new cars being made are as a result of IHC loosing the ability to get the original ones made by Rivarossi. To my knowledge, none of the new ones are PRR prototypes; though a lot of people will buy them just to have prepainted cars that look pretty good, never mind they're not prototype. That's part of the philosophy, besides the cost of tooling, which I won't get into here. AHM/Rivarossi/IHC cars fell into three overall styles: (1) heavyweight cars they called 1920's [8 different body styles], (2) slab side lightweights they called smooth side 1930's [8 different body styles], and (3) fluted lightweight stainless steel BUDD cars they called corrugated side 1940's [4 different body styles]. Model Expo now imports all the Rivarossi heavyweight and slab side lightweight cars, all using the original paint schemes/names/numbers, etc., as AHM/IHC did prior to the introduction of the BUDD cars; but M.E. doesn't have the BUDD cars IHC did offer for a very limited time on their old cars, quite a few paint schemes used by the Pennsy. They originally had the "classic" one-over, two-under stripe scheme (though some were drastically wrong, including about all of the heavyweights); then when the fluted BUDD cars made their appearance around late 1989 or early 1990, they offered them in FoM and Congressional/Senator paint (the Congo/Sen was silver with Tuscan letter boards and name/number boards), along with the JOHN HANCOCK in protection equipment shadowline paint. Later, after I did the research and art information to adapt the FoM to some other cars, they did the slab (smooth) side lightweight 10-6 as LANCASTER COUNTY and the heavyweight Pullman as JAMES MADISON. Other names for the 10-6 were to have been JUNIATA RAPIDS and MACKINAW RAPIDS, and for heavyweights were GOUVERNEUR MORRIS and ANDREW JACKSON; none of these four to my knowledge were ever made. There were some matching FoM cars in all three body styles, not all of which were made, and the two heavyweight baggage express and two slab side lightweight PRO cars were single tone Tuscan just as the PRR painted them, and with matching lettering--I think all four of these were made. These were all grouped as a mixed consist since there were cars of more than one style to make up the paint scheme group. As for the Congressional/Senator cars; these started life as all fluted BUDD cars, plus the JOHN HANCOCK heavyweight Pullman with shadowline paint as I mentioned above. I added the only other protection equipment heavyweight Pullman I could find, the ROBERT R. LIVINGSTON, which did get made. Besides correcting the field color of the keystone on the original cars from Tuscan to the correct Toludine red, I added more car names to the consist of the fluted cars (most of which I think got made), as well as one slab side protction equipment diner (#1157) that I do not think was ever made. These were also grouped as a mixed consist. The "classic" one-over, two-under stripe scheme was corrected filled in with many cars for complete consists in both heavyweight cars and slab side cars, to include the addition of stripes to the dome car (yeah, I know the PRR never had any) in a way to make it look as it might have looked if the Pennsy ever did have some. There was also a set of heavyweight cars done in Tuscan with gold lettering from the era of the business car stripes on some of them (one black and four gold stripes). Some of each paint scheme were made, though a few in only about 250 pieces each over all the different paint schemes. I'm told the slab side FoM LANCASTER COUNTY and the heavyweight FoM JAMES MADISON are the rarest, but I can't verify this. I left IHC in Nov. '93 for a county government job in another state, but did a lot of this art over the following five months on a consultant basis, and thankfully was able to get one each of these two cars :-). For anybody that's interested, since the PRR had a big holding in the N&W, I was also responsible for the N&W heavyweights that got added later on (though the factory didn't always follow my instructions for correct lettering placement). In all cases, I tried to use correct names and numbers, as appropriate, for the type of car, especially for those that were actual or close PRR prototypes. However, I'm told that some of the numbers were changed after I finished my consulting work to add a new car to the line, just by adding 3 to the car number I had originally assigned. In most cases, this new number was not prototype. For example, the fluted grill car #4525 had an "illegitimate sister" #4528 added to the line, but there was never a #4528 in real life that I could find. Now, about the prototype FoM paint scheme--that I think has previously been covered in this forum. Briefly, it was used from 1938 to early 1947, and according to photos and text in Tilp & Blardone's book, it was used on heavyweight, heavyweight betterment, slab side lightweight, and fluted side stainless cars--even some of the P70 series cars. There are lists of the types of Pullmans and a few other cars that received these colors. The Congressional/Senator paint information is also in the book. Note that IHC chose only to represent the Congressional/Senator cars as they appeared in the stainless era. BTW, the car that IHC called a smooth side RPO is a sort of betterment type car--actually a BM70nb. If you look at it, the steel plates and rivets are all there (rather than welded side sheets), with an arch roof added and 4-wheel trucks replacing the original 6-wheel ones. If you want to back date it, you can use the roof from one of the 72' heavyweight coaches and modify it a little to fit (trim the clear plastic at each corner so it fits inside the body shell), and change the trucks back to 6-wheel ones. I won't get into detail, but it can be done using all original AHM/Rivarossi/IHC car parts and trucks, or more accurately with the correct trucks from another manufacturer and some added details. Hope this helps you and anybody else to put these cars into perspective. Chuck Friedlein ARRJERRY@aol.com wrote: > > Hi all, > Does anyone have a clue what IHC is doing with there "type" of passenger cars? > Under CORRUGATED SIDES, they list in Walthers both a group labeled > Pennsylvania and a group labeled Pennsylvania "the fleet of modernism." In > addition they list the Congressional. In the past there was only one set plus > the Congressional called 1940 Corrugated Side Series. > Under SMOOTH SIDES, they also list two groups; Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania > "fleet of modernism." Before there was only one set under 1930 Smoothside > series. > Walthers does not show any Heavyweight Series. > Has any one seen these new cars? Do they match the previous series? > When I called IHC, I learned little from the person on duty. > Thanks, > Jerry > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 19:10:24 -0800 From: dave mcneil Subject: [PRR] BP-20's ET AL To the Group: I was at a train show today in Sarasota, Fl. and got a chance to see the products being sold be Hobbytown of Boston. As previously mentioned the BP-20 shell is a resin casting of a kitbash of Model Power A&B units and IMHO from 3 ft would be acceptable to most except the true SPF. The mating line is visible on closer inspection, but otherwise it's not too bad. I have the the original article from? magazine on how to do the kitbash. It mentions that it will be inaccurate as to the number of screens on the shell. I didn't count them on the shell I saw today, but imagine it is off by one. The unit sels for $185.00 RTR with Hobbytown Can motored drive, all wheels powered; painted TR 1 wide stripe with Trainphone antennas directional lighting and DCC socket. The motor is insulated from the chassis. Hal also presented a very nicely done kitbash of a Baldwin Centercab. He used a pair of Athearn Baldwin S-12 shells as the basis. It also was $185.00 and was detailed as above with the same drive. I almost bought it, but had just bought an ABA set of P2K PA's and the Fantasy BLT that appeared a couple of months ago in Model Railroader (?) It was based on a what if production using a pair of BL-2's. Really looks like something Pennsy would have tried if presented back then by EMD! Keep 'em rolling Dave McNeil, Superintendant Cypress Creek Division Penninsula Region Pennsylvania Railroad ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] schedule Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 20:54:14 -0500 (EST) Gents: I have put up a graphical schedule for Logansport Yard. This is a representation of all freight trains that came into or out of Logansport yards within a 24-hr period. You can find it as a link under http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ I want to do this for other yards as well. Conway, Pitcairn, and Enola are obvious desires, and all are difficult because of the enormity of the task. Are there any requests for any other yards besides these three? Does anyone want to help by formatting some info.? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] Parlour-Lounge Cars Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 20:52:48 -0600 In the December issue of Railroad Model Craftsman Bethlehem Car Works has an ad for "parlour-lounge cars" for "PRR, Pullman..." and other roads. Has anyone seen these and are they useful to the serious SPF? These folks have served us well with their B60 (now Eastern Car Works) and the M70. Hopefully they have given us another winner. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 00:11:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Pullman New York County Does anyone know what the disposition of this car is? Dick Brundage Tulsa Oklahoma bnsftulsa@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 00:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] X-42 express box cars Good evening folks.... A while back there was some discussion of the X-42 express boxcars. Some were talking about the paint they had over the years....While looking through a old copy of the "Pennsy" i found a picture of one. I'm posting this because i did'nt catch all that was talked about on these cars and also for anyone who might have missed same. The picture was in a march ? 1953 issue...about a railway equipment convention. It showed car No. 2548. From what i could see in the picture as far as paint and markings...the name "PENNSYLVANIA" was spelled out evenly between the two doors about halfway up the side of the car.... Also there were two stripes about three feet up on the side..about the height of the second grab iron height on the sides. Not unlike the two you see under the windows on Pennsy passenger cars...The end lettering is as it is on the later paint scheme. Since this was a black and white picture i can't tell you what the paint color was...My best guess would be that all the lettering and stripes might have been in white. I base this on the way Pennsy did the express reefer colors and the X-29 express cars. That would mean that the stripes on this car could also have been white. If there is enough interest...and if some one is willing to scan and post it on their site ( such as Jerry or Mark) i could send the magazine to them to post it for all of us to see. While i'm at it....and since this is "PENNSY" magazine related.... In another issue i have there is a picture of Bay View yard in Baltimore. In this picture it shows two engines switching in the yard. One is a Fairbanks Morse unit (I'll have to get back to you guys on what it might be ) and what looks to be a I-1s with a short tender. You can tell its a I-1 as you can make out the feedwater heater on the side. Now this is from a 1957 issue of the "PENNSY". But what is strange is that all steam was out of the Baltimore area after 1953. What this means is this.... Either the picture was a old one PRR was using for the article. or the I-1 in the picture was on its way to the scrap yard (which Baltimore had a lot of then ) or it was there from another division with a train from or to that division...( which i doubt )or was there for some temporary reason. But at least its nice to know that both these types of engines were in Baltimore at one time . (Hmmmmm i have a Bowser I-1...I also model Baltimore ....Hmmmmm at least now i can justify it being in Baltimore... and according to ETT info from that time frame there wer'nt too many places a I-1 could go on the Maryland Div.....Have at it guys..... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:38:00 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 express box cars Hank, There's a photo of #4525 in the Morning Sun PRR ColorGuide Vol. 2, page 18. It's tuscal with the plain keystone and lettering in white, but no stripes. I can't remember where I saw anothe color photo of an X42 with the stripes as you described, but I do remember thinking the letering, etc., was immitation gold, though it could have been very weathered (read: lightened where it could look white). Then again, it may have been white. Chuck bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Good evening folks.... > > A while back there was some discussion of the X-42 express boxcars. > Some were talking about the paint they had over the years....While > looking through a old copy of the "Pennsy" i found a picture of one. > I'm posting this because i did'nt catch all that was talked about on these > cars and also for anyone who might have missed same. > > The picture was in a march ? 1953 issue...about a railway equipment > convention. It showed car No. 2548. From what i could see in the picture > as far as paint and markings...the name "PENNSYLVANIA" was spelled > out evenly between the two doors about halfway up the side of the car.... > Also there were two stripes about three > feet up on the side..about the height of the second grab iron height on > the sides. Not unlike the two you see under the windows on > Pennsy passenger cars...The end lettering is as it is on the later > paint scheme. Since this was a black and white picture i can't tell > you what the paint color was...My best guess would be that all the > lettering and stripes might have been in white. I base this on the way > Pennsy did the express reefer colors and the X-29 express cars. > That would mean that the stripes on this car could also have been white. > > If there is enough interest...and if some one is willing to scan and > post it on their site ( such as Jerry or Mark) i could send the magazine > to them to post it for all of us to see. > > While i'm at it....and since this is "PENNSY" magazine related.... > In another issue i have there is a picture of Bay View yard in Baltimore. > In this picture it shows two engines switching in the yard. > One is a Fairbanks Morse unit (I'll have to get back to you guys > on what it might be ) and what looks to be a I-1s with a short tender. > You can tell its a I-1 as you can make out the feedwater heater on the side. > Now this is from a 1957 issue of the "PENNSY". But what is strange is that > all steam was out of the Baltimore area after 1953. What this means is > this.... > > Either the picture was a old one PRR was using for the article. > or the I-1 in the picture was on its way to the scrap yard (which Baltimore > had a lot of then ) or it was there from another division with a train > from or to that division...( which i doubt )or was there for some temporary > reason. But at least its nice to know that both these types of engines > were in Baltimore at one time . (Hmmmmm i have a Bowser I-1...I also model > Baltimore ....Hmmmmm at least now i can justify it being in Baltimore... > and according to ETT info from that time frame there wer'nt too many > places a I-1 could go on the Maryland Div.....Have at it guys..... > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 express box cars Date: Sun, 22 Nov 98 09:23:30 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/22/98 12:42 AM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > If there is enough interest...and if some one is willing to scan and > post it on their site ( such as Jerry or Mark) i could send the magazine > to them to post it for all of us to see. Through the end of the year I will be posting misc. photos, diagrams, and text that has been backing up over the past few months. My next big project will be to scan post (Acrobat format) as many issues of THE PENNSY as I can get my hands on. Even those that I can't get my hands on will be included in an index, if possible. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:32:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Parlour-Lounge Cars In a message dated 11/21/98 10:05:05 PM Central Standard Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << In the December issue of Railroad Model Craftsman Bethlehem Car Works has an ad for "parlour-lounge cars" for "PRR, Pullman..." and other roads. Has anyone seen these and are they useful to the serious SPF? These folks have served us well with their B60 (now Eastern Car Works) and the M70. Hopefully they have given us another winner. >> Bought one at Madison. About 15th on my list of 100 projects to do. It consists of a Rivarossi Pullman partly sawed and beautiful etched brass car sides for the Matchless, Defender, B'nai B'rith, Enterprise, Guardian series of cars of the Pennsy as used in Buffalo Day Express, The Union, Duquesne, Chicago-Louisville, and Clocker service, among others, depending on era.. There were minor differnces in cars and the Courageous could probably be done if you put an end with windows on it. Article in Spring 1999 Keystone and the plans in the article were copyright 1966 by Model Railroader, Kalmbach, so you might be able to search the latter's database or order a copy if desired. Some other detail parts are included in the kit. I am enthusiastic about the project because of the quality of the sides, but it is not a shake-the-box kit. In earlier eras, some cars were in Pullman green for a time. They also were used on Army-Navy specials. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:13:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Weekend Pic = neat location where I Spent many hours=P'burg ***Hi, All - This map courtesy of the URHS / NJ Transport Heritage Group; although I prefer Port Morris for the Museum Location....Please go to: http://members.aol.com/PRRSignals/PBURGj.jif For an overview of a Fantastic Multiple RR Town. Of Course, "PU" was my Favorite tower to work, during the late 1960's...Ore Trains, Coal Trains, Explosive / Weapons Trains, Alco's all over ( on all FIVE RR's ! ) Lots of Train Order / Manual Block Territory ( except the 'modern' Lehigh Valley...), the CNJ Drill with back to back Wabash F7s, whatta time !!!. Take care, all... and go easy on Criticizing that CT1000,,, Remember, Much better nit-pickers, and also Professional Railroaders FAMILIAR with the Territories reviewed those works....Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:56:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Parlour-Lounge Cars In a message dated 11/22/98 11:50:22 AM Central Standard Time, I wrote << Article in Spring 1999 Keystone >> Let's try that again. Spring 1989. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:54:38 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Orangeville,Md. Hi folks... I don't think many might have this...but i gotta take a shot. Does anyone have any info or photos on the PRR engine facilities at Orangeville which was on the east side of Baltimore,Md. Going from memory ( or lack there of) there was a 6 or 7 stall round house,the turntable (which faced a side street, a two or three stall engine house...a large crew bunk building, a small single story crew dispatchers building....the locomotive ready tracks (crew's called them the "pit tracks"), a couple of storage tracks and (before my time) the coaling tower,the sand towers (which made it to Conrail times). I have no idea where the water tower was. I've gotten some verbal info from my dad who worked out of Baltimore at one time,but he remembers about as much as i do. Any help will be appreciated. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:49:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 express box cars In a message dated 11/21/98 11:56:20 PM Central Standard Time, bubbles@visi.net writes: << Since this was a black and white picture i can't tell you what the paint color was...My best guess would be that all the lettering and stripes might have been in white >> Other captions I have seen for photos of this car series with that paint scheme say that it was tuscan (rather than freight car color like the X29REA cars) and had gold (buff?) lettering and striping. Unfortunately, the same captions say no color photos were available. This car was built in 1950. There must be some Pennsy worker or fan who saw one in person who could verify the colors (I was around,but not on Pennsy lines at the time). I would lean toward the gold lettering for no other reason than the lettering is passenger font rather than freightcar font, but that is a pretty weak reason, I agree in advance. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:20:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] New and old subjects From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:17:24 -0800 Roger Elliott writes: >Hi Sgt York, > >I think the list is a little lacking in the N-scale department >although Carl Schlund hasn't posted in a while and he's big on PRR and Nscale. >Ron Dugas also does Nscale but he's mostly into 30's and 40's stuff >like me. I'm kinda strange that way......I wasn't born until the 60's..... > Yeah, N has played second fiddle for a couple decades, but I feel its time has come. there are so many new things coming out in N. I'm a '67 model myself, but like to model Delmarva's carfloat during WW2 and the early '50s in HO. Probably model Delmarva shortlines during the mid 1980's in N (everything was ALCo pretty much-- C420s, T6s, and RS1s.) now that Atlas is bringing back the RS1s. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:21:52 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Re: P-S Library? From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:21:37 -0600 rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) writes: >Yo Sarge, > >Would you by chance have a copy of the P-S Library volume 4, PRR, in >stock? >I need this to complete the company library. > >Thank you! > >Bob > Sorry Bob--don't have that one. Good luck on your search, though. Try Ron's Books? SSGTYork ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:28:24 -0800 Gentlemen, I find it quite interesting that with all of the recent talk of loco and cabin car wish lists that no one has brought up the ridiculous lack of proper postwar PRR freight cars (and freight car decals) available. It seems that the postwar-era PRR modeling community must be satisfied with painting Athearn or MDC freight cars (and lettering them with the precious few PRR decals that are available, even fewer the ones that are close to correct). I'm sorry, but the upteenth brass version of the oddball X40's, obviously aimed at the collector market, just doesn't get it. Where are mass-produced plastic versions of the X51's, the X55a's, the G31's, and the G36's? Where are the cars that were produced by the thousands and thousands, and which ran on almost every railroad everywhere in the country? How about the X47's, the F41's, and the X50's? Or even an X61 for the mid-1960's modelers? Of course, I know that I am probably going to upset the "if it didn't have a Ball Keystone or Merchandise Service on it, I'm not interested" crowd, but I think it's high time that 50's and 60's era models were produced. I for one have lobbied heavily with certain manufacturers (Bowser) and decal manufacturers, but one person just isn't enough. Ironically, the new Branchline Trains 50-ft. box cars will be available in a never-before-produced NYC Despatch Shops version, with its unique roof and ends. So now the NYC modelers will have their own unique box car versions available. And modelers of the "Standard Railroad of the World?" Where's our X51? Where are the postwar PRR modelers out there? We need to make our voices heard. Otherwise the "pickle car collector mentality" will determine your choice of postwar freight car models. And that will result in exactly zero useful plastic models of everyday prototypes. Here's my short wish list in order of preference: X51 G31 X55a F41 G36 Gentlemen, it's your turn. Mark T. Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:50:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Derating PRR units I've noticed that when the four sets of BP-20's were regeared for freight service that the PRR lowered the horsepower rating. This was also done to the Centipedes when they were put into freight service. I was wondering if anyone knew the reason for a lesser horsepower for the locomotives? Also with the death of John Hahn does that mean the end of the PRR locomotive books? Thanks Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:24:14 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Re: E44 & T-6 From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Had a similar problem with my Alco Models ALCo T-6. The axels seem to be shorting and there is no room for any insulators. Anyone ever solve this dilema? I'm about to replace the trucks with Prec. Scale self contained power trucks (amongst other modifications). SSGT York On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:39:22 -0500 "Bill Knepper" writes: >The only problem with the ALCO Model was that it was noisy and the >trucks >shorted to the frame on uneven track. File the frame were it hits >the >truck frame, and it will run smooth. A good can motor should take care >of >the noise. Mine runs great ... now! > >Bill > >---------- >> From: staffsgtyork@juno.com >> To: bobsin@nac.net; prr-talk@dsop.com >> Subject: [PRR] Re: E44 >> Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 8:59 PM >> >> >> >> On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:17:39 -0500 bobsin@nac.net writes: >> >Saw your support for the E44 and E33. There was a brass version >once, >> Alco Models >> >maybe? >> >> Yepper! Alco it was. Saw customer bring one in the shop not long >ago. >> You can get them for under $200. I'm game. >> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >> products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at >http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:33:48 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Re: E44 From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:03:18 -0500 bobsin@nac.net writes: >Hi Sarge, > >Assume these must have pretty primitive motor systems, would have >to be remotored, no? Is this a big problem? > They were using Pittman style open frame motors and tower truck drives. Some of the Japanese built versions of Alco Models suffered from gear shrinkage and cracking. The earlier KMT (Korean) versions had a potential of truck warpage due to the zinc based white metal used to make the trucks. Don't remember which version the E44 used. Both problems can be fixed. If the trucks aren't warped now, they probably won't anytime soon (John Glabb at Peachcreek gave me that advise on my T-6). You look into buying one with warped gear cases, and you will have to replace them (makes 'em run better anyhow). The Alco Models engines do require some modernizing, but that isn't as expensive as buying a new model from Overland, etc. Plus, the Alco's aren't overwraught with decor that risks breakage from excessive running or handling. Super detail is for lookin' at, not runnin'. >Also, do you know how folks are building catenary? There is a company in the back of the model rr magazines (don't know which one) that has just come out with NEC brass catenary poles. Usually you use phosphor bronze wire for over head wiring. >I vividly recall the time I had my arms draped across the upper >level Lionel tracks, dreamily watching the GG1 run around sparking >in the dark, and my tongue touched the overhead on the lower level, >WOW! what 18VAC feels like!! Do you have curly hair to this day? SSGT York ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Weekend Pic = neat location where I Spent many Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:09:47 -0500 (EST) > and go easy on Criticizing that CT1000,,, Bill, I don't know if you're directing your comment at me specifically, but just in case my recent email on this seemed unclear, a reread will show that I was NOT criticizing the _document_ per se, but rather, the all-too-common assumption by people now a minimum of 30 years removed that it contained zero errors. > Remember, Much better nit-pickers, and also Professional Railroaders FAMILIAR > with the Territories reviewed those works....Bill*** Surely. But secretaries, typesetters, printers, etc., were involved as well. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 19:19:04 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Jack Hahn PRR diesel series / Withers Publishing Greetings to Todd and the List > Also with the death of John Hahn does that mean the end of the PRR >locomotive books? Thanks Todd Horton I think we've posted on this subject before but for all who missed it and are interested, Withers Publishing has acquired all of the late Jack Hahn's photos in order to allow the PRR diesel series to continue. Other PRR books will be forthcoming, too, with more of Jack's photos. Dan Cupper, managing editor Diesel Era magazine and Withers Publishing books ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:01:09 -0500 Mark, I don't understand your problem. Today there are more different PRR cars on the market and some easy kit-bashes that can get you quite a few other cars. Some of the Post-War Freight cars are H-21 Bowser all lettering styles H-33 ECW and Bowser I think H-34 ECW and Atlas H-37b Stewart H-39 Stewart H-40 ECW H-43 Bowser H-45 Accurail F-31 Bowser F-41 Walthers X-43a,b,c C&BT and also the upcoming Branchline car X-44 Branchline X-48 Everyone Branchline also is offering the 50 footer with other ends and roofs so maybe a X-50 could be done There are also some resin and aftermarket cars for some other cars Plus many other cars are easy kit bashes. As for decals if you can get any Middle Division sets you will find that they offer many post war sets. Neil -----Original Message----- From: Mark T. Evans To: PRR List Cc: Elden J Gatwood ; Jerry Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 4:21 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] >Gentlemen, > >I find it quite interesting that with all of the recent talk of loco and >cabin car wish lists that no one has brought up the ridiculous lack of >proper postwar PRR freight cars (and freight car decals) available. > >It seems that the postwar-era PRR modeling community must be satisfied with >painting Athearn or MDC freight cars (and lettering them with the precious >few PRR decals that are available, even fewer the ones that are close to >correct). > >I'm sorry, but the upteenth brass version of the oddball X40's, obviously >aimed at the collector market, just doesn't get it. Where are >mass-produced plastic versions of the X51's, the X55a's, the G31's, and the >G36's? Where are the cars that were produced by the thousands and >thousands, and which ran on almost every railroad everywhere in the >country? How about the X47's, the F41's, and the X50's? Or even an X61 for >the mid-1960's modelers? > >Of course, I know that I am probably going to upset the "if it didn't have >a Ball Keystone or Merchandise Service on it, I'm not interested" crowd, >but I think it's high time that 50's and 60's era models were produced. I >for one have lobbied heavily with certain manufacturers (Bowser) and decal >manufacturers, but one person just isn't enough. > >Ironically, the new Branchline Trains 50-ft. box cars will be available in >a never-before-produced NYC Despatch Shops version, with its unique roof >and ends. So now the NYC modelers will have their own unique box car >versions available. And modelers of the "Standard Railroad of the World?" >Where's our X51? > >Where are the postwar PRR modelers out there? We need to make our voices >heard. Otherwise the "pickle car collector mentality" will determine your >choice of postwar freight car models. And that will result in exactly zero >useful plastic models of everyday prototypes. > >Here's my short wish list in order of preference: > >X51 >G31 >X55a >F41 >G36 > >Gentlemen, it's your turn. > >Mark T. Evans > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is >BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P-S Library? Date: Sun, 22 Nov 98 20:12:21 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/22/98 5:21 PM, staffsgtyork@juno.com (staffsgtyork@juno.com) wrote: >Sorry Bob--don't have that one. Good luck on your search, though. Try >Ron's Books? You've got to watch eBay like a hawk...daily! I bought mine that way, and I've seen a few since. It has been a couple of months though. Price is usually around $50. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Derating PRR units Date: Sun, 22 Nov 98 20:11:07 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/22/98 4:50 PM, CENTGA@aol.com (CENTGA@aol.com) wrote: >I've noticed that when the four sets of BP-20's were regeared for freight >service that the PRR lowered the horsepower rating. This was also done to the >Centipedes when they were put into freight service. I was wondering if anyone >knew the reason for a lesser horsepower for the locomotives? > Also with the death of John Hahn does that mean the end of the PRR >locomotive books? Thanks Todd Horton I know that as part of the move to freight service they were re-geared. Perhaps the existing drive trains couldn't handle the higher horsepower? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Modern PRR Cars Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:45:40 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BE1661.7446FA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,=20 Re your comments about modern PRR cars. Right on brother. Neil, I hear what your saying and to some extent I agree, but look over your = list....not many modern Xs and practically no modern Gs. Other Comments: Yes Bowser is TRYING to do a good job, but I'm sorry somehow they manage = to screw up at least one thing in the process. I know you can't please = all of the people all of the time. But how about shooting for 50% of the = people 50% of the time.=20 H21 - included top reinforcing chord that was very short lived on the = prototype. They could have issued car w/o top chord and it would have = been an easy fix for those few people modeling that small window of = time. Although these kinds of things give Johny Johnson something to do = on those long winter nights in VA when he can't visit the NJ diners.=20 H43 - Incorrect lettering size. They went to all the trouble to make an = excellent car and screwed up the printing.=20 X31a - Stores and material car. Another print job screw up. S and square = should be yellow not white(note Middle Division decals incorrect also). = Also reporting marks and numbers incorrect font. Although numbers = correct. GSa - Brake appliances on incorrect side, pre safety applicance = standards time period. How many people are modeling that era? Maybe I'm just overly critical - Bowser (or one of their other business = units) also just came out w/ a Western Maryland 50' boxcar. Incorrect = color, Speed ball lettering, but incorrect width, and catch this not WM = reporting marks but MW. Go figure, Who is their technical advisor????? = Who is with QC????? Sorry guys, My spleen has been pent up too long w/ Bowser I just had to = vent it, I'll shut up now. Thanx for the forum. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BE1661.7446FA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
Re your comments about modern PRR = cars. Right on=20 brother.
 
Neil,
I hear what your saying and to some = extent I=20 agree, but look over your list....not many modern Xs and practically no = modern=20 Gs.
 
Other Comments:
 
Yes Bowser is TRYING to do a good = job, but I'm=20 sorry somehow they manage to screw up at least one thing in the process. = I know=20 you can't please all of the people all of the time. But how about = shooting for=20 50% of the people 50% of the time.
 
H21 - included top reinforcing chord = that was=20 very short lived on the prototype. They could have issued car w/o top = chord and=20 it would have been an easy fix for those few people modeling that small = window=20 of time. Although these kinds of things give Johny Johnson something to = do on=20 those long winter nights in VA when he can't visit the NJ diners. =
 
H43 - Incorrect lettering size. They = went to all=20 the trouble to make an excellent car and screwed up the printing. =
 
X31a - Stores and material car. = Another print=20 job screw up. S and square should be yellow not white(note Middle = Division=20 decals incorrect also).  Also reporting marks and numbers incorrect = font.=20 Although numbers correct.
 
GSa - Brake appliances on incorrect = side, pre=20 safety applicance standards time period. How many people are modeling = that=20 era?
 
Maybe I'm just overly critical - = Bowser (or one=20 of their other business units) also just came out w/ a Western Maryland = 50'=20 boxcar. Incorrect color, Speed ball lettering, but incorrect width, and = catch=20 this not WM reporting marks but MW. Go figure, Who = is their=20 technical advisor????? Who is with QC?????
 
Sorry guys, My spleen has been pent = up too long=20 w/ Bowser I just had to vent it, I'll shut up now.
Thanx for the forum.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BE1661.7446FA40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:46:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR freight cars In ref. to Mark Evans message: '"DITTO." Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Orangeville,Md. Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:09:04 -0500 Hank, I'll have to dig into the archives for them, but I used to have some shots of the turntable with some P54's sitting next to the roundhouse. I know I have shots of the GG1 sanding rack, which was one of the service tracks. Let me know if you want me to try and find them. ps: grew up in those yards. Bill ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Orangeville,Md. > Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 11:54 AM > > > > Hi folks... > > I don't think many might have this...but i gotta take a shot. > Does anyone have any info or photos on the PRR engine facilities at > Orangeville which was on the east side of Baltimore,Md. > Going from memory ( or lack there of) there was a 6 or 7 stall round > house,the turntable (which faced a side street, a two or three stall > engine house...a large crew bunk building, a small > single story crew dispatchers building....the locomotive ready > tracks (crew's called them the "pit tracks"), a couple of storage tracks > and (before my time) the coaling tower,the sand towers (which made it > to Conrail times). I have no idea where the water tower was. > > I've gotten some verbal info from my dad who worked out of Baltimore at > one time,but he remembers about as much as i do. > Any help will be appreciated. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:59:02 -0800 Dear Neil and PRR List Members: A few points: 1. You'll notice I specifically left out PRR Hoppers in my original post. This is because many classes are quite well represented by Stewart, Bowser and others. If all you run is hopper cars, then your postwar needs are well taken care of. That is, of course, if you like the lousy lettering job that Bowser put on their H43, for instance. Where do I get decals to take care of that? 2. F41 - The Walthers GSI flat is a standard cast steel flat car that was produced for a number of railroads in the 50's and 60's. It is definitely not real close to a F41, as a casual look at the drawings in the Car Builder's Cyclopedias and published photos will reveal. However, I'll grant you that it is a passable stand-in until something better comes along. 3. F31 - This car, and a number of other cars on your list, is a prewar-built car. Now I realize that they ran well into the Penn Central era, but my comments are confined to cars built new AFTER W.W.II. 4. X43 - I know that these cars are available. Because of that, I left these off of my list on purpose. 5. X48 - Well, there were a grand total of 20 of these on the entire PRR. Not exactly representative of the mainstream PRR freight car roster. 6. X44 and X50 - We'll see about the Branchline car. I have a feeling some of the "easy kit-bashes" you alluded to may not be quite that easy if you are trying for a fairly accurate model. 7. Neil said >> As for decals if you can get any Middle Division sets you will find that they offer many post war sets.<< Your statement proves my point. "...if you can get any Middle Division sets" doesn't cut it. This is the company that produces sets when it wants to, doesn't answer phone calls and doesn't return mail with postage-paid envelopes provided for the reply. Is this the best that we can do? While I acknowledge the quality of the sets that they produce is excellent, they don't make THAT many postwar sets, and I can't get them anyway. Where is their set for the H43 so that I can correct the Bowser model? How about a PRR 86' hycube? Or a set for the X57? I'm not a big fan of piecing my lettering together letter by letter. We have a long way to go to get a representative set of PRR freight car decal sets on the market. Hopefully Microscale will help to correct this in the near future. By the way, in my original post I forgot to add the X58 to my "most wanted list." Athearn's outside post car is just not a very good stand-in. Decals for the X58 would be nice, too. Mark T. Evans ---------- > From: N Campbell > To: mtevans@jps.net; PRR List > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] > Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 3:01 PM > > Mark, > > I don't understand your problem. Today there are more different PRR > cars on the market and some easy kit-bashes that can get you quite a few > other cars. > > Some of the Post-War Freight cars are > > H-21 Bowser all lettering styles > H-33 ECW and Bowser I think > H-34 ECW and Atlas > H-37b Stewart > H-39 Stewart > H-40 ECW > H-43 Bowser > H-45 Accurail > F-31 Bowser > F-41 Walthers > X-43a,b,c C&BT and also the upcoming Branchline car > X-44 Branchline > X-48 Everyone > > Branchline also is offering the 50 footer with other ends and roofs so maybe > a X-50 could be done > There are also some resin and aftermarket cars for some other cars > Plus many other cars are easy kit bashes. > As for decals if you can get any Middle Division sets you will find that > they offer many post war sets. > > Neil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:52:25 -0600 Subject: [PRR] eBay auctions helps From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, Just a suggestion on how to do the eBay thing. I have dealt with them many times on auctions. Best thing to do when bidding is to bid LOW if you feel you have to bid early. Best thing to do is wait until the final hour or so to place your bid. Just set up the item under your list of favorites. I have done this many times and won (although I am what is referred to as a lurker, I wait until the final 30 seconds to place a bid, unpopular but works more often than not). Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:39:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 woes Since I suspect it was my remark, "The CT1000 isn't quite the Bible one could hope for" which started things, perhaps I should expand on that. I'm NOT saying "Oh look at all these errors which I, in my superior knowledge, can spot". Rather, I pointed to and warned of internal inconsistencies in the CT1000. A branch of the Middle Division says it had a junction with the Bedford Division. Yet the same CT1000 does not list a Bedford Division. True, once upon a time there was a Bedford Division, and the junction in question was with what had been the Bedford Division. But, it remains that the 1923 CT1000 says that this track here joins to something else that the 1923 CT1000 says doesn't exist. As I noted in the original post, somewhere in Ohio there is a "Connection with Mansfield Division" but no Mansfield Division. Maybe there once was, but certainly the CT1000 which says there was a connection to the Mansfield Division doesn't list anything named Mansfield Division. In Eastern Penna., the Sunbury Division notes a junction with the Hazleton Division, but the CT1000 does not list a Hazleton Division. I suspect it was the Hazleton Division of the Lehigh Valley, but "suspect" doesn't cut it. In Western Penna., one division lists junctions with several branches, but that is the only mention of those branches on that or any other division. Were they branches of some other railroad? Were they branches which once existed but had been abandoned? CT1000 doesn't say. There are numerous less striking inconsistencies. The Middle Division, at Tyrone, lists "junction Tyrone Division, east connection" and, a short distance away, "junction, Tyrone Division, west connection". However the Tyrone Division, at Tyrone, lists "junction Middle Division". I guess there was a wye, and I suppose each division figured it belonged to the other division. Or perhaps the Middle Division people were more hung up on detail that were the folk on the Tyrone Division. That one is fairly common. That is, there are many places where the description of one track notes two or more connections to another, while the the description of the other notes fewer connections to the first one. Now, one might say "Well, if you had been there working you would know how things were laid out". And that's just my point. I wasn't there, and can't be there, and "there" isn't there any more, and the CT1000 doesn't tell me what I'm trying to find out. That is, "It's not the Bible one could hope for." === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:42:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PS-1 boxcars The PS-1's had black ends when delivered. The first trip through the paint shop resulted in freight car color (not tuscan) ends the same as the sides. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:49:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] In a message dated 11/22/98 18:22:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net writes: << Some of the Post-War Freight cars are H-21 Bowser all lettering styles H-33 ECW and Bowser I think H-34 ECW and Atlas H-37b Stewart H-39 Stewart H-40 ECW H-43 Bowser H-45 Accurail F-31 Bowser F-41 Walthers X-43a,b,c C&BT and also the upcoming Branchline car X-44 Branchline X-48 Everyone >> To this list can be added the soon to be released X29B and X29D from C&BT shops. The problem in producing many of the 50's and 60's PRR unique cars is the fact that the PRR in most instances used the overhanging panel roof which is very difficult to make in an injection molded model. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 woes Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:58:22 -0500 (EST) robert netzlof scrivit: > > Since I suspect it was my remark, "The CT1000 isn't > quite the Bible one could hope for" which started > things, perhaps I should expand on that. > > I'm NOT saying "Oh look at all these errors which I, > in my superior knowledge, can spot". Rather, I > pointed to and warned of internal inconsistencies in > the CT1000. > > A branch of the Middle Division says it had a [abridged] I have found similar inconsistencies in the 1960 freight schedules I've been putting up. The main inconsistency is the mention of connections to trains that have no corresponding schedule in the book. Now, some of these may well be locals, and some are quite possibly PRSL trains that not long before were PRR trains, and quite possibly "everybody" simply "knew" that those train designations were PRSL trains, but I, now, have no easy way to know this. Another definite possibility, especially given the 3-ring-binder format, is that some defunct schedules have been retained 'cause the person maintaining it did not do a complete job. In fact, I KNOW this is the case, as some schedules are clearly duplicates (and the index of the web page lists these cases). At any rate, the journalist's rule I think applies here: corroborate with 2 sources at least, whenever humanly possible. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:32:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 woes = Used as intended, a good Tool !! **Hi, Sweet Old Bob, and all... ...My point was that it ( and ALL PRR Printed matter...) WERE indeed very Accurate, and when used in CONJUNCTION with track charts, Interlocking Diagrams, and the Employee Timetable, this COMPLETE picture is created. Like All Good Research, It Takes a LOT of work ! ... and the CT 1000, remember, was only an Adjunct to handle accounting purposes, NOT to explain / learn / qualify on the territory / tracks of a Division. I think you are attemting to use this Acctg Tool to "reconstruct" the physical plant..... I find it a big AID only in FINAL interpretation of local Sidings, spurs, names of local industries, etc., Only AFTER examining the other materials listed above. My first Reading of the CT-1000E, WHILE I WORKED THERE / NY Div PRR, resulted in total confusion !! While trying to relate Accounting Listings to the Actual tracks I rode over daily !! Their system is entirely from another perspective. Reconstructing the NY Div from the CT-1000E would be like building model benchwork out of Steel I-beams !! Yes, you could do it, BUTT...only with extreme difficulty !!??!! BTW, Is that plywood thread done, now..?? I got splinters ??!!! hahahha.. Jes' my thoughts.....As for Accuracy, we found maybe one or two tiny errors in any 300 page PRR ER ETT.... maybe....Then, under CR, we received 52 reprinted PAGES the first Week..!!! Uh, a little difference in knowledge / care / proof-reading..??? Yes, misteaks (ha) are made, but PRR stuff was triple proof read, printers proofs, etc., Just so that they went OUT correctly. I have some of these EmplTimeTable proofs, and they were examined ( and signed off ..) by a dozen sharp operating / rules / signal / track / mech / etc. folks FIRST, and all along the process during and before Final Printing. It took an immense amount of time AND caring, butt...that is how it was back then. Bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:26:46 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] tidbit And what about the Buffalo Creek and the Niagara Junction? On Fri, 20 Nov 1998, DjM wrote: > This little tidbit of information is from Norfolk Southern's latest > Implementation Update. > > --- > > Here are some Conrail predecessor lines and the number of present > Conrail employees who once worked for them: > > Pennsylvania Railroad 8,533 > New York Central 2,398 > Erie Lackawanna 1,243 > Reading 630 > Lehigh Valley 400 > Monongahela Railway Company 158 > Central of New Jersey 146 > Indiana Harbor Belt 97 > Penn Central 82 > Merchants Despatch 50 > Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Line 43 > Chicago River & Indiana 25 > Akron Barberton Belt 15 > Detroit Terminal 10 > New York & Long Branch 7 > Dayton Union 4 > Cleveland Union Terminal 2 > Penn Truck Lines 3 > Lehigh & Hudson River 1 > > --- > > -=D > -- > David Mikulec > The DT&I Modelers Page > http://DTI.Railfan.net > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:22:44 -0500 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] Painting an M1a Hello, I'm about to paint my (S scale) brass M1a and would like some advice. I modeling the late 40's very early 50's. My question is about the smokebox. I'll be using Scalecoat Brunswick Green for the bulk of the engine but notice on some of the (B&W) photos in books that the smokebox was "different" from the rest of engine. I doen't look light grey or silver, just different.? Any hints on what these engines looked like in color during that era? Thanks, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting an M1a Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 13:56:27 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/23/98 1:22 PM, Keith B. Thompson - Sun (thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM) wrote: >I'm about to paint my (S scale) brass M1a and would >like some advice. I modeling the late 40's very early >50's. > >My question is about the smokebox. I'll be using >Scalecoat Brunswick Green for the bulk of the engine >but notice on some of the (B&W) photos in books that >the smokebox was "different" from the rest of engine. >I doen't look light grey or silver, just different.? Could be your room lighting...why not send it over to my layout for, say, 12 months. I'll let you know if the color is wrong! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:50:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: CT1000, gotta start with basics ( maps, charts ), they In a message dated 98-11-23 12:57:43 EST, you write: << Sure am, because it's the only source accessable to me for big pieces of the railroad. I agree that that's trying to use it backwards. but I gotta do what I can with what I got. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob >> ***awww, we gotta find you some STUFF !!!! Ebay just had PRR Track Charts for almost the Entire PRR Main Line, and timetables pop up here and there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:37:47 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting an M1a >My question is about the smokebox. I'll be using >Scalecoat Brunswick Green for the bulk of the engine >but notice on some of the (B&W) photos in books that >the smokebox was "different" from the rest of engine. >I doen't look light grey or silver, just different.? >Any hints on what these engines looked like in color >during that era? Yes, it was, although the precise color is often harder to delineate. What you are seeing is actually oiled, unpainted metal. This may have been painted origianlly on earlier locos, but the paint rapidly flaked under the heat. Rich Orr said on 10/31/97: "Locomotive: Frame, valves, running gear, pilot -- black. Smoke box, ash pan, fire box - powdered aluminium mixed in oil. The amount of powdered alumium varried from one paint shop to another depending on the aesthetic of the shop foreman. Thus you may have a very shinny aluminium color or a very dark dull color. The fromulae for mixing the color is as varried as the original paint color. Aluminium mixed with black to a color you like is usable. I use Floquil gun metal and black in approximately a 60-40 ration. However every batch is different." Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:50:28 -0800 Subject: [PRR] K-9 stock car From: staffsgtyork@juno.com About 3 months ago, was there not an advertisement for a Pennsy K-9 stock car. It was offered as a milled side Bowser 50'(?) box with etched metal sides to convert it. Can anyone tell me who makes it, where to get it, and how much? Any reviews? SSGT York Happy Thanksgiving to all SPF out there! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:19:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting an M1a The PRR painting instructions call for a mixture of aluminium and oil to be applied to the smole box and firebox. The exact color varied from one paintshop to the next as the paintshop foreman added differing amounts of powdered aluminium to the oil. In theory when the smoke box and/or firbox was heated the powder aluminium melted and adhered to the metal and the oil burned off. Since paint will not adhere because of the temperature this was a alternative method of protecting the metal surface. I use gunmetal blue and graphite in a 50-50 mixture. Also remember the pilot, underframe, drive wheels, trailing truck were painted black not DGLE. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:12:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] (long) The following is offered to inform and not inflame the members of this list. While a number of the cars which Mark menitoned are desirablewith the exception of the G31 and subclasses G36F they are not mandatory to represent the bulk of the PRR freight cars. There are other classes which are far more necessary for representing the bulk of the fleet, e.g. G34, G35, H35, X41E, G38, G39, G39A. The X58 the most abundant "modern" box car is 24th on the list, the X55A is 39th and the F41 43rd. Below is a listing of the PRR freight car classes and the number of cars on the roster on January 31, 1968 as published in the ORER April 1, 1968 and Jun 30, 1963 roster as published in the October 1, 1963 ORER I have not completely listed the avialable models. Also, I have only include those classes with more than 500 cars on the repective dates. This was done to keep the posting a reasonable length. OCT 63 APR 68 H39 9994 9875 STEWART H39A 6156 6088 STEWART CHANGE TRUCKS H21 H21A H21B H21E H21G 9751 5093 BOWSER G31A 4786 3869 X29D 4018 3055 C&BT SHOPS H43B 2989 BOWSER X43B 2945 2782 C&BT SHOPS G36F 2846 2726 X29B 4347 2525 C&BT SHOPS H35 1996 1981 H43 1973 BOWSER G35 1898 1831 G36E 1700 1697 G34 1993 1622 G31B 1989 1575 H43A 1499 BOWSER X43C 1467 1421 C&BT SHOPS G31F 600 1370 X43A 1455 1353 C& BT SHOPS H37A 1249 1220 STEWART F30A 1272 1203 G31D 1195 1183 X41E 155 1098 X58 1074 H43C 1000 BOWSER X31A 6398 994 BOWSER G38 998 982 G39 1000 974 G39A 959 H30 1292 938 G31K 888 X29G 898 879 H37B 889 873 STEWART G32A 1497 786 G31 2293 775 X46 740 721 G28C 698 X26F 718 695 X55A 698 694 H36 700 691 G36A 703 688 G28 20 664 F41 697 631 X51E 608 616 G36C 550 604 G43 600 G31C 747 596 G36 595 595 G32B 593 X60G 592 G26 1630 581 X46A 591 580 X51C 570 569 X58C 549 X51 531 529 X44 1235 528 X58B 505 G33 500 498 Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] (long) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:09:24 -0500 Rich The F 30 is available from Bowser Neil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:30:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] K-9 stock car Sarge, I just got Bethlehem Car Works catalog sheets and this car is illustrated under "Sparrow Point Models" at $24.95, less trucks. I don't have the sheet handy, but I think it includes decals. Not sure if you can get it from BCW direct or have to order frrom these other folks. Anyone seen this in the flesh, or is this soon to be released? Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] (long) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 17:03:06 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Sunshine makes one in resin also.. Rob Rich The F 30 is available from Bowser Neil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] K-9 stock car Date: Mon, 23 Nov 98 18:08:52 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg I'm pretty sure they've been released. I saw one at a train show that BCW attended. They consist basically of a Bowser round roof box car with the sides milled off and new brass sides to be used in their place. They had an assembled car which looked real nice. I didn't buy one so I can't tell you any more about them... Rob ------------------------ http://prr.railfan.net >Sarge, >I just got Bethlehem Car Works catalog sheets and this car is illustrated >under "Sparrow Point Models" at $24.95, less trucks. I don't have the sheet >handy, but I think it includes decals. Not sure if you can get it from BCW >direct or have to order frrom these other folks. Anyone seen this in the >flesh, or is this soon to be released? >Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: E44 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:39:40 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > staffsgtyork@juno.com > Sent: Sunday, November 22, 1998 5:34 PM > To: bobsin@nac.net; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Re: E44 > snip > > >Also, do you know how folks are building catenary? > > There is a company in the back of the model rr magazines (don't know > which one) that has just come out with NEC brass catenary poles. Usually > you use phosphor bronze wire for over head wiring. Try checking out Model Memories at: http://www.info-4u.com/modelmemories/catalg12.htm I've seen their PRR catanery at the yearly Springfield, Mass train show and it's some beautiful stuff! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modern PRR Cars Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:39:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE1718.FFF5B7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll second (or third) the call for more modern PRR cars. Unfortunatly the PRR marched to a different drummer than most other roads. This makes for many cars that are homebuilt and unique to the PRR. This type of car is usually shunned by mass market manufacturers. Of course the fact that they're PRR/CR cars does help but it's still a hard sell to manufacturers (even though there might be 1000's of cars in the class.) These are usually the cars that the resin folks make but for most of them time seems to stop in the early 50's! Hopefully modular kits like Branchlines upcoming boxcars will help. I also wish that Bowser would get their act in gear. Even when help is offered they seem to think they know best. Case in point, for their Erie Lackawanna covered hopper a friend of mine who makes EL decals offered them correct artwork and prototype information. They declined and proceeded to paint the (grey) car white! The GS gons really make me wonder. Why do cars with an older brake wheel arrangement and make it with AB brakes! Also I noticed the X41 in the list of wanted cars. Isn't the Walthers GSC flat a pretty close match for this one? I haven't researched it extensively but if looks pretty close to me! Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Alan Buchan Sent: Sunday, November 22, 1998 9:46 PM To: PRR Talk Cc: Mark T. Evans; N Campbell Subject: [PRR] Modern PRR Cars Mark, Re your comments about modern PRR cars. Right on brother. Neil, I hear what your saying and to some extent I agree, but look over your list....not many modern Xs and practically no modern Gs. Other Comments: Yes Bowser is TRYING to do a good job, but I'm sorry somehow they manage to screw up at least one thing in the process. I know you can't please all of the people all of the time. But how about shooting for 50% of the people 50% of the time. H21 - included top reinforcing chord that was very short lived on the prototype. They could have issued car w/o top chord and it would have been an easy fix for those few people modeling that small window of time. Although these kinds of things give Johny Johnson something to do on those long winter nights in VA when he can't visit the NJ diners. H43 - Incorrect lettering size. They went to all the trouble to make an excellent car and screwed up the printing. X31a - Stores and material car. Another print job screw up. S and square should be yellow not white(note Middle Division decals incorrect also). Also reporting marks and numbers incorrect font. Although numbers correct. GSa - Brake appliances on incorrect side, pre safety applicance standards time period. How many people are modeling that era? Maybe I'm just overly critical - Bowser (or one of their other business units) also just came out w/ a Western Maryland 50' boxcar. Incorrect color, Speed ball lettering, but incorrect width, and catch this not WM reporting marks but MW. Go figure, Who is their technical advisor????? Who is with QC????? Sorry guys, My spleen has been pent up too long w/ Bowser I just had to vent it, I'll shut up now. Thanx for the forum. Al ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE1718.FFF5B7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'll=20 second (or third) the call for more modern PRR cars. Unfortunatly the = PRR=20 marched to a different drummer than most other roads.  This makes = for many=20 cars that are homebuilt and unique to the PRR.  This type of car is = usually=20 shunned by mass market manufacturers.  Of course the fact that = they're=20 PRR/CR cars does help but it's still a hard sell to manufacturers (even = though=20 there might be 1000's of cars in the class.)  These are usually the = cars=20 that the resin folks make but for most of them time seems to stop in the = early=20 50's!  Hopefully modular kits like Branchlines upcoming boxcars = will=20 help. 
 
I also=20 wish that Bowser would get their act in gear.  Even when help is = offered=20 they seem to think they know best.  Case in point, for their Erie=20 Lackawanna covered hopper a friend of mine who makes EL decals offered = them=20 correct artwork and prototype information.  They declined and = proceeded to=20 paint the (grey) car white!  The GS gons really make me = wonder.  Why=20 do cars with an older brake wheel arrangement and make it with AB=20 brakes!  
 
Also I=20 noticed the X41 in the list of wanted cars.  Isn't the Walthers GSC = flat a=20 pretty close match for this one?  I haven't researched it = extensively but=20 if looks pretty close to me! 
 
Rob
http://prr.railfan.net<= /DIV>
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Alan = Buchan
Sent:=20 Sunday, November 22, 1998 9:46 PM
To: PRR = Talk
Cc: Mark=20 T. Evans; N Campbell
Subject: [PRR] Modern PRR=20 Cars

Mark,
Re your comments about modern = PRR cars.=20 Right on brother.
 
Neil,
I hear what your saying and to = some extent I=20 agree, but look over your list....not many modern Xs and practically = no=20 modern Gs.
 
Other Comments:
 
Yes Bowser is TRYING to do a = good job, but=20 I'm sorry somehow they manage to screw up at least one thing in the = process.=20 I know you can't please all of the people all of the time. But how = about=20 shooting for 50% of the people 50% of the time.
 
H21 - included top reinforcing = chord that=20 was very short lived on the prototype. They could have issued car = w/o top=20 chord and it would have been an easy fix for those few people = modeling that=20 small window of time. Although these kinds of things give Johny = Johnson=20 something to do on those long winter nights in VA when he can't = visit the NJ=20 diners.
 
H43 - Incorrect lettering size. = They went to=20 all the trouble to make an excellent car and screwed up the = printing.=20
 
X31a - Stores and material car. = Another=20 print job screw up. S and square should be yellow not white(note = Middle=20 Division decals incorrect also).  Also reporting marks and = numbers=20 incorrect font. Although numbers correct.
 
GSa - Brake appliances on = incorrect side,=20 pre safety applicance standards time period. How many people are = modeling=20 that era?
 
Maybe I'm just overly critical - = Bowser (or=20 one of their other business units) also just came out w/ a Western = Maryland=20 50' boxcar. Incorrect color, Speed ball lettering, but incorrect = width, and=20 catch this not WM reporting marks but MW. Go figure, Who=20 is their technical advisor????? Who is with QC?????
 
Sorry guys, My spleen has been = pent up too=20 long w/ Bowser I just had to vent it, I'll shut up now.
Thanx for the = forum.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE1718.FFF5B7E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:51:02 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > The problem in producing many of the 50's and 60's PRR unique cars is the fact > that the PRR in most instances used the overhanging panel roof which is very > difficult to make in an injection molded model. Three words: "two piece body". The first piece of equipment I owned with a separate roof was an MDC 50' Express Reefer. The problem is either the floor would need to be cast to the sides (with the frame separate, hopefully) or the sides would need to be cast to a recessed flat roof over which the actual roof would be overlain. I do agree with the desire for X58 series cars.... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:40:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 woes In a message dated 98-11-23 08:45:01 EST, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << Yet the same CT1000 does not list a Bedford Division. True, once upon a time there was a Bedford Division, and the junction in question was with what had been the Bedford Division. Railroaders have a tendency to keep calling things what they "used to be called". I believe we are seeing numerous printed examples of this phenomenon in the subject CT1000. Many track charts, etc. fail to insert the word "former" in spots where it belongs. But this is, to me, part of what makes railroading interesting! Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] K-9 stock car Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:40:42 -0500 Barry and Sarge, The model is of a K- 11. I have on of these cars and it builds onto a great car. You should be able to get them from BCW. BTW the word from John Green is that Sparrows Point will soon have the K-9 ready. Neil -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com To: staffsgtyork@juno.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] K-9 stock car >Sarge, >I just got Bethlehem Car Works catalog sheets and this car is illustrated >under "Sparrow Point Models" at $24.95, less trucks. I don't have the sheet >handy, but I think it includes decals. Not sure if you can get it from BCW >direct or have to order frrom these other folks. Anyone seen this in the >flesh, or is this soon to be released? >Barry Peltier > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is >BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:41:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] K-9 stock car The K-11 (40'ft car) is available from Sparrows Point Division, PO Box 325, Telford, PA 18969 @ $24.95 each. The decals include information for the K-9, K-9A and K-9B (50ft cars). I have not seen any ads for the K-9 cars. Sparrows Point is a Division of Bethlehem Cars, I believe as the cars I received were shipped in Bethlehem boxes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:21:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] NX23 update, Helper District west of Columbus? folks, I also have intermittant troubles sending via aol. I don't know if it'll survive in my usage if this keeps up too long. Very unpredicatable service. BP ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:15:40 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR SD40's Can anyone out there in Cyberland supply me with a nose shot and higher angle roof shot. of a PRR/PC (gasp) SD40, Particularly PC 6070 or 6093. These were 2 of the 3 that received the red P. I found a custom Painted kato SD40 that I couldn't live without and I'd like to detail the pilot and cab. References to books where photos can be found would be welcome too. If there are photos online send me the link. Thanks Brian J Carlson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:39:56 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: E44 On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Robert Schoenberg wrote: > Try checking out Model Memories at: > http://www.info-4u.com/modelmemories/catalg12.htm > > I've seen their PRR catanery at the yearly Springfield, Mass train show and > it's some beautiful stuff! A review of their NH catenary appears in the January 1999 MR. It too looks good. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:08:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] NX23 update, Helper District west of Columbus? In a message dated 11/21/98 2:08:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > To all. > > Spent the day with the folks in Urbana, Ohio, who're restoring the NX23. > They're really excited. Phil Ritter of the Philly PRRT&HS chapter's sending > me > a copy of Blandone's High Line piece on the NX23. If any one else has any > information about this cabin car, give a holler so we can get it to them. > > They had a question for me I couldn't answer: was there a helper district > on > the Panhandle Columbus Div. Columbus-Chicago freight ? > They they've found remains of a turntable and stock yards along the > Panhandle > west of town. They they've been told that there was a 4% grade west of > Urbana > and that the turntable turned the helpers. > Urbana sits on high ground near the divide separating not only the Miami > and > Scioto valleys but the Great Lake and Ohio River watersheds. It near the > highest elevation in Ohio. And tit down hill all the way to the Miami River > at > Piqua the next county over, about 20 miles west. There's a grade but were > there helpers? > > > Tom V. > Tom, Joe O'Gara (an Urbana native living near me in Louisville) has been trying to answer this one. The PRR had 2 or 3 yards in Urbana, and according to oldtimers Joe visited at home this weekend, the helper service was a reality. Joe has much more info on railroading in Urbana, too. I've recommended Joe try to find a map that can be marked up, and we will also keep trying to get his AOL to send to PRR-Talk (it receives, but doesn't transmit messages). Rick Tipton LWF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] eBay auctions helps Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:56:51 -0500 > Just a suggestion on how to do the eBay thing. I have dealt with them > many times on auctions. Best thing to do when bidding is to bid LOW if > you feel you have to bid early. Best thing to do is wait until the final > hour or so to place your bid. Just set up the item under your list of > favorites. I have done this many times and won (although I am what is > referred to as a lurker, I wait until the final 30 seconds to place a > bid, unpopular but works more often than not). > Actually this is called "sniping" and you are known as a "sniper". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:07:08 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: E44 Greetings, Remember that I've been selling PRR suburban prototype catenary poles for almost 5 years. Easy to use with Sommerfeldtor Vollmer prefabricated (simple) catenary wire. Anybody interested, my e-mail address is or for illustrated information, send a LSSAE to: Friedlein's Rail Replicas P.O. Box 262 Medford, OR 97501-0018 Chuck Friedlein Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Robert Schoenberg wrote: > > > Try checking out Model Memories at: > > http://www.info-4u.com/modelmemories/catalg12.htm > > > > I've seen their PRR catanery at the yearly Springfield, Mass train show and > > it's some beautiful stuff! > > A review of their NH catenary appears in the January 1999 MR. It too looks > good. > > -D > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting an M1a Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:43:30 -0600 Keith--It seems that the best look at the smokebox color that we have is in videos. The colors vary all over the spectrum, but it seems that earlier means lighter. Some of the shots taken in the 30's and early 40's are really light. One video which shows this is "Pennsylvania Glory Volume 3" from Herron. Later views are usually much darker, as in the Penn Valley Pictures series. For my models set in May, 1954, I have been using Floquil SP Lark Light Grey, but I see that shade is no longer listed by Walthers. It is a dark shade of grey inspite of the name. Variations between engines are accounted for by more or less weathering. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Keith B. Thompson - Sun To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 2:07 PM Subject: [PRR] Painting an M1a > > >Hello, > >I'm about to paint my (S scale) brass M1a and would >like some advice. I modeling the late 40's very early >50's. > >My question is about the smokebox. I'll be using >Scalecoat Brunswick Green for the bulk of the engine >but notice on some of the (B&W) photos in books that >the smokebox was "different" from the rest of engine. >I doen't look light grey or silver, just different.? >Any hints on what these engines looked like in color >during that era? > >Thanks, >kbt > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is >BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:44:02 -0600 From: bkroger@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] smokeboxes and fireboxes I've never heard of anything other than graphite and valve oil being used for high heat applications, so the aluminum powder is news to me. It seems that aluminum powder would give a much different finish than graphite, yet the color photos I've seen look pretty similar in shade and color. What does the RR Museum of PA use on their preserved PRR steam? Regards, Ben Kroger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:39:53 -0800 Three solutions to the X58 "overhanging roof problem" that have been around for a while: One piece body - The Details West box cars have overhanging roofs, and they have been around for years. Body with separate roof - Old McKean/Front Range, Walthers, upcoming Branchline Trains car. Flat molded kit - Anyone remember the Silver Streak plastic HO reefer? Flat molded kit, separate overhanging roof. Circa 1960's? Somehow, I don't think that the lack of an accurate X58-class model is attributable to the overhanging roof. Mark T. Evans ---------- > From: Derrick J Brashear > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] > Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 5:51 PM > > On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > > The problem in producing many of the 50's and 60's PRR unique cars is the fact > > that the PRR in most instances used the overhanging panel roof which is very > > difficult to make in an injection molded model. > > Three words: "two piece body". The first piece of equipment I owned with a > separate roof was an MDC 50' Express Reefer. The problem is either the > floor would need to be cast to the sides (with the frame separate, > hopefully) or the sides would need to be cast to a recessed flat roof over > which the actual roof would be overlain. > > I do agree with the desire for X58 series cars.... > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:52:56 -0800 Dear Rich and PRR List Members: Rich Orr said >>While a number of the cars which Mark mentioned are desirable, with the exception of the G31 and subclasses G36F they are not mandatory to represent the bulk of the PRR freight cars. There are other classes which are far more necessary for representing the bulk of the fleet, e.g. G34, G35, H35, X41E, G38, G39, G39A. The X58 the most abundant "modern" box car is 24th on the > list, the X55A is 39th and the F41 43rd.<< Comments: A) Watering down the list with massive numbers of PRR hopper cars that I have already noted are pretty well represented in model form skews the numbers big time against the relatively smaller overall production numbers of other postwar car classes. Heck, I took statistics in college too, and that's exactly what I would do if I was taking the counter argument. Compared to 16,000 or so H39/H39a's, NOTHING looks very "mandatory." B) In addition, splitting up sub-classes of cars that basically look alike into separate listings (e.g., X51, X51a, X51b, X51c, X51d together totals 1600 cars; X51e, X51f, X51g, and X51h together total 1000 cars), and leaving other classes completely out (What happened to the X61, X61a, X61b, X61c, X61d, X61e, and X61f for instance?), skews the results even more. D) F41 and subclasses - What percentage were F41's out of all FLAT cars, not of ALL freight cars. I think that you will find that this number IS significant. C) The bottom line is the same: Skewed numbers or not, many PRR merchandise trains in the later years of the railroad had significant numbers of the following cars: G31 and subclasses G36 and subclasses X51 and subclasses X51 rebuilds/X55a X58 and subclasses F41 and subclasses I think that we need models of these cars, period. And the fact that many of these cars lasted into the Penn Central and Conrail eras (in large numbers) makes them that much more attractive to model manufacturers than cars that didn't. D) X29 rebuilds, X41 rebuilds, ore gons, etc. No problem with having these cars too. They're not at the top of my list, but they may be for others. That's fine with me. Mark T. Evans ---------- > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > To: mtevans@jps.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Cc: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil; Jerryglow@aol.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] (long) > Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 12:12 PM > > The following is offered to inform and not inflame the members of this list. > While a number of the cars which Mark menitoned are desirablewith the > exception of the G31 and subclasses G36F they are not mandatory to represent > the bulk of the PRR freight cars. There are other classes which are far more > necessary for representing the bulk of the fleet, e.g. G34, G35, H35, X41E, > G38, G39, G39A. The X58 the most abundant "modern" box car is 24th on the > list, the X55A is 39th and the F41 43rd. Below is a listing of the PRR > freight car classes and the number of cars on the roster on January 31, 1968 > as published in the ORER April 1, 1968 and Jun 30, 1963 roster as published in > the October 1, 1963 ORER I have not completely listed the avialable models. > Also, I have only include those classes with more than 500 cars on the > repective dates. This was done to keep the posting a reasonable length. > > [List pruned by MTEvans] > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:43:21 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Info. on PRR Business Car #2821 Howdy all and AJSNGS: I hate to admit defeat, but I can't find any information on car #2821. I'll be over at the RRMP early next month, I'll see if I can find anything. cos AJSNGS@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have any information or photos of PRR business car # 2821 ? > > It should have been a wooden car used during the early 1900's. > > I've seen a couple of pieces of silver from the car but it does not show up in > any of the resources that I have concerning private cars. > > Thanks !!!!!!!!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:08:14 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullman New York County Howdy all and Dick: The New York Count is listed through to the 1967 Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment. It may be in the 1968 issue, but I don't have that one. It is not listed in the 1969 issue. It is listed Descriptive List of Cars of the Pullman Company, March 1961, it is not listed in the supplements to June 15, 1967. I have a disposition list somewhere, but can't find it now - I'll keep looking. cos Bnsftulsa@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone know what the disposition of this car is? > Dick Brundage > Tulsa Oklahoma > bnsftulsa@aol.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:20:55 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Pre-War Freigt Cars All, I would appreciate guidance on where to go for images or drawings of pre-WW 2 freight rolling stock that show things like stirrup steps, grabs, coupler cut levers, etc. as they were during the '30s. Thanks. Vagel "all of us shouldn't be steam-to-diesel-era" Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: [PRR] K-11 Kit Review (was: K-9 stock car ) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:18:42 -0600 SSGT York wrote: About 3 months ago, was there not an advertisement for a Pennsy K-9 stock car. It was offered as a milled side Bowser 50'(?) box with etched metal sides to convert it. Can anyone tell me who makes it, where to get it, and how much? Any reviews? ............................................................................ ................. 40 foot, PRR K-11, Bethlehem Car Works, Sparrows Point Division, @ 24.95 less trucks and couplers, decals are included. I don't think the K-9's are available yet. I have built 4 of the K-11's (I take the kits and a small modeling tool kit with me when I travel on business). These are not "shake the box kits", however instructions are good. I take my time and it takes about 4 or 5 hours to build one car (less painting and decaling). The sides of the Bowser box car have been milled out. You have to clean up some flash, cut several pieces of styrene strips to length and glue them as a frame around the milled opening. The brass sides fit into this frame. There is quite a bit of work to preparing the brass sides. First you must do some filing to fit the sides to the opening you prepared in the plastic car body. Next you have to cut to size some pieces of screen wire (that supplied in the kits is much to course to suite me so I replaced it with a finer mesh), glue them behind the openings in the sides using "goo". Then you cut several more styrene strips to specified lengths and glue them to the backside of the sides against the screen wire (several different widths of strips are called for in a specific pattern). The brass doors have several very small brass parts (corner braces and rollers) that must be removed from the sprus, cleaned up with a file and superglued to the doors. I still have to paint and decal my cars but everyone who sees the still unpainted put together cars is very complimentry about this unusual design. My best advice is read the directions several times before starting and frequently when building, make sure you understand each step, and check off each step on the instruction sheet as you complete it. I definately plan on buying some K-11's when they become available. Bill Laird Houston, TX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:10:16 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Deluxe Innovations RF16 From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, Question to all N scalers out there in PRR-talk land, have any of you purchased and built up on of the Deluxe Innovations Baldwin RF16? I was wondering how this went and if they were worth the purchasing. I must say that it is nice to have all this new N-scale PRR equipment and the Red Caboose X29 is a nice add on. Also wondering what LifeLike's second run of PAs have in them--anything like a DGLE 5-stripe scheme? Thanks for any and all help. Has anyone thought of purchasing a set of Raritan Bay radio decals and shrinking them onto a clear decal sheet for N-scale? this would have to be done on a color copier but I believe it may be possible. Would anyone be interested in this? Is it legal? Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Deluxe Innovations RF16 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:02:48 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 24 Nov, locoshop@juno.com wrote: > Question to all N scalers out there in PRR-talk land, have any of you > purchased and built up on of the Deluxe Innovations Baldwin RF16? I was > wondering how this went and if they were worth the purchasing. Before I embarrass myself, that's the freight shark, right? I have bought two, and since Ro's had a "we bought too many" special on FAs, I bought several to use for this and to power my PRR PBs. I can't really comment on the *accuracy* of these shells, but the detail is sharp and they don't seem overly delicate. The LL FA chassis fits OK, you need to do some milling on the weights to get them to fit (a very clear diagram is included). Since the FA is a good puller, I expect the Shark to be, too. The five-stripe Microscale decals are backordered, but the Gold Medal antenna mounts are in hand. > I must > say that it is nice to have all this new N-scale PRR equipment and the > Red Caboose X29 is a nice add on. And the FNS X31[a], X32, X29, and Real Soon Now the N5C. I'm also thinking about bashing a deLuxe AAR boxcar into a credible X46, using an X29 roof, an MT door, and some strip styrene for the sill. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:04:00 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pre-War Freigt Cars At 10:20 AM 11/24/98 -0500, vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: >All, > >I would appreciate guidance on where to go for images or drawings of pre-WW >2 freight rolling stock that show things like stirrup steps, grabs, coupler >cut levers, etc. as they were during the '30s. Thanks. > >Vagel "all of us shouldn't be steam-to-diesel-era" Keller > Vagel: Best reference I can think of would be a Car Builder's Cyclopedia from the era in question. These pop up on ebay occasionally. I believe they were published in 1931, 1937, 1940, & 1943. Next one would be '46, which is out of the boundary you set. Bob Rothrock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:55:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Pre-War Freigt Cars In a message dated 11/24/98 10:11:45 AM Central Standard Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << I would appreciate guidance on where to go for images or drawings of pre-WW 2 freight rolling stock that show things like stirrup steps, grabs, coupler cut levers, etc. as they were during the '30s. Thanks. Vagel "all of us shouldn't be steam-to-diesel-era" Keller >> Try the Train Shed Cyclopedia reprint series by Chrles S. Gregg, publisher (I don't have a recent Walthers catalog in front of me but 1997 listed under vendor 310 (See their website for current availability). Great pictures and plans of cars and items such as underframes, brakes, saftety appliances, etc. Car cyclopedias of 1925, 1931, 1943 have complete freight cars. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:22:38 -0500 From: "J. R. N. Witmer" Subject: [PRR] Smokebox paint Locomotives, such as the M1 and related classes, as well as earlier power, had a mixture of aluminum paint and graphite applied to their smokeboxes and that portion of the firebox visible beneath the cab and running boards. Since local practice differed as to the proportions, the color varied. Most of the locomotive was indeed DGLE, but other parts, such as truck frames, got black paint. Don't forget cab roofs and cistern decks. Cheers, Captain Jack ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] eBay auctions helps Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:38:51 -0500 My favorite technique is to bid low early, and get the item on MY EBAY page. Then bid later, but after the RESERVE has been met. Lurking is only useful if you will be at your computer when the auction ends. If I am going to be away, I usually set maximum bid that stop the casual lurker. I also look for items below reserve. Lurkers don't tend to like "below reserve" items. When an auction ends below reserve, I sometimes can negotiate a favorable deal. lpmorgan on ebay -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of locoshop@juno.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 1998 11:52 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] eBay auctions helps Hello all, Just a suggestion on how to do the eBay thing. I have dealt with them many times on auctions. Best thing to do when bidding is to bid LOW if you feel you have to bid early. Best thing to do is wait until the final hour or so to place your bid. Just set up the item under your list of favorites. I have done this many times and won (although I am what is referred to as a lurker, I wait until the final 30 seconds to place a bid, unpopular but works more often than not). Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David L. Britton" Subject: [PRR] Need info on PRR Trackage through Dayton Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:31:32 -0500 (EST) My father and I are finally really beginning our father-son railroad layout 15 years after buying our first set. We live in Dayton, OH and want to model some of the PRR including any trackage they had through Dayton as well as the Latrobe, PA area. I'm in the process of doing research on where they ran through Dayton. So far, all I have is a 1907 Dayton Vicinity map showing some of the PRR line. Any pointers on books or other ways to get this info would be greatly appreciated. We plan on focusing our model on the Steam to Diesel transition as I like the early Diesels while my Dad is a Steam freak. Bottom line is: we're ballparking the 1940's and 1950's... TIA, Dave Britton dbritton@vmuse.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:15:37 -0800 Dear Rich and List Members: I think that several comments on parts of Rich's post will help to get to the heart of the matter; Rich said >> If you are attempting to replicate the relative compostion of PRR freight car fleet as it existed even at the very end, the number of "modern" box cars in a fleet of even a 1000 modeled cars is relatively small. << Furthermore, Rich also said >> The facts are that the PRR was first and foremost a coal hauling road. Coal was the life blood ot the PRR and that is why the majority of cars were open hoppers. You cannot ignore the hoppers and replicate the fleet with any accuracy.<< Rich, I think that you are falling prey to a popular but flawed line of thinking that is espoused by some "experts" in the hobby, that representative railroad freight car fleets are composed of some sort of "average" number of different types, roadnames, classes of car, or whatever. While this may be true in an extremely abstract sense, it conveniently overlooks the one basic rule of railroading: IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT SEGMENT OF THE RAILROAD THAT YOU ARE MODELING. I'm not attempting to replicate some "relative composition of [a] PRR freight car fleet..." I want to model a realistic TRAIN. The makeup of the particular train is LINE SPECIFIC. Segments of the western portion of the PRR had quite a different proportion of hopper cars to box cars that the eastern part of the system. For instance, you can't tell me that the PRR between Indianapolis and St. Louis featured vastly more coal hoppers than box cars. This segment of the PRR is primarily a MERCHANDISE hauler, featuring many hot merchandise trains which connected with the western and southern roads throughout the St. Louis gateway. Knowledge of this type cannot be found by computing averages from an Equipment Register. You must have a feel for each territory. Using the "average freight car fleet" logic outlined in your post, each train would consist of probably 70% hoppers, 20% gons, and 10% other cars. However, viewing some of the excellent videos [Green Frog, Revelation A/V] of Midwestern action on the PRR, for instance, will reveal many practically SOLID trains of boxcars (albeit, not all PRR), with nary a hopper car in sight. Rich went on to say >> If on the other hand you are attempting to model a specific freight train, the composition becomes very different. And one must not lose sight of the fact that many of the "modern" cars were in captive service, i.e. assigned to a specific shipper, and were found in very limited routings.<< These statements actually serve to validate my above comments. As an example, you'll see a fair number of X51-class, X55a's, and X61-class auto parts box cars in Midwestern PRR trains relative to other cars because that's where the auto parts plants and assembly plants were located. These cars tended to travel in blocks in specific trains and frequented certain routes, as they were generally assigned to a specific plant along the line. The "limited" routings you refer to were major line segments of the PRR system! The high concentration of these cars on certain routes blows the "average" or "generic" fleet composition arguments wide open. Rich finally says >>Even a "nut" like myself, who religiously adheres to maintaining the relative composition of the PRR freight car fleet, needs one or two of these cars. But I certainly do not need them in the same quanity as hoppers or gondolas.<< These final statements speak to the heart of the matter. Much of the research, documentation, and focus on the PRR has been the Main Line from Philadelphia through Pittsburgh. The "relative composition" method of modeling the PRR freight car fleet, with it's inherent statistical bias to hopper cars, fits pretty well in this part of the PRR, with it's heavy mineral train orientation. But for trains on other, more merchandise-oriented PRR lines, the "true composition" of the PRR freight car fleet is drastically different. Even a casual sampling of available videos will make this fact evident. A robust sampling of postwar PRR boxcar, gon and flat models is what's needed to even things out. Mark T. Evans P.S. I really do like hopper cars, too! ---------- > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > To: mtevans@jps.net > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car List [or lack thereof] > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 9:12 AM > > Mark, you missed the entire point of my posting. If you are attempting to > replicate the relative compostion of PRR freight car fleet as it existed even > at the very end, the number of "modern" box cars in a fleet of even a 1000 > modeled cars is relatively small. With a total frieght car fleet of 110,000 > in 1968 a modeled fleet of 1000 cars is approximately 0.9% of each subclass of > cars. Any class or subclass of less than 1000 cars does not even warrant > representation by 1 car. With the smaller classes, you enter the arena of > combining classes and choosing which class or subclass of several you will > model to maintain the relative relationship of the classes. > > The facts are that the PRR was first and foremost a coal hauling road. Coal > was the life blood ot the PRR and that is why the majority of cars were open > hoppers. You cannot ignore the hoppers and replicate the fleet with any > accuracy. Whether or not you already own a number of hoppers does not impact > on the relative number cars of each class needed to represent the PRR fleet. > > If on the other hand you are attempting to model a specific freight train, the > composition becomes very different. And one must not lose sight of the fact > that many of the "modern" cars were in captive service, i.e. assigned to a > specific shipper, and were found in very limited routings. > > Nowhere did I say the "modern" cars are not desirable. In fact, I said they > are. Even a "nut" like myself, who religiously adheres to maintaining the > relative composition of the PRR freight car fleet, needs one or two of these > cars. But I certainly do not need them in the same quanity as hoppers or > gondolas. > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:40:57 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#44576894: PRR Conway This sounds like a phenomenal resource for someone on the list. Lines West, you listening? Title of item: PRR Conway Yard Route Interlocking Book c1955 Seller: info@dmephemera.com Starts: 11/24/98 18:59:18 PST Ends: 12/01/98 18:59:18 PST Price: Currently $12.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=44576894 Item Description: Pennsylvania Railroad, Westward Conway Yard, Conway PA, Union Classification Yard Systems Route Interlocking book c1955(There is a note attached to the first page stating Hold Until Edited & Released 5-19-56) by Union Switch & Signal Co., Swissvale PA. 37 single sided pages plus "Union Automatic Switching for Classification Yards" booklet bound in which is 33 pages. Also has 3 folding diagrams. The whole book is plastic spiral bound. Measures 8 1/2" x 11". The first section has a 2 page forward on the Union Switch & Signal company followed by a title page for Classification Yard Systems. Has 4 pages of general info on this at the Conway yard, 1 page of info on the car retarder & 1 page w/an image. One page of info on switch machines & a page w/image of it, one page on the automatic speed control system w/image, one page on the electronic computer, one page on weight control systems w/2 images, one on car rolling resistance, one on classification track fullness w/image, one on automatic switching system w/3 single page images. One page on teletype tape storage feeding system w/single page image, one page on wayside signal system, one page on type "CY" inductive cab signal system w/a page w/2 images. One page on dragging equipment detectors, one page on yard track indicator w/image, one page of type LC-form 521 code control system w/image & one on shove signals. Next is a 33 page booklet titled Union Automatic Switching for Classification Yards manual 517 January 1953 by Union Switch & signal. It has info on car retarder, control machines, storage units & relays, maintainer's, test panel, automatic switching operation, model 31 electro pneumatic car retarders, circuit description & arrangement & operation of lap switches. Following this is a 24 3/4" x 16" folding diagram of circuits for union automatic switching system, single switch locations. The next diagram is 14 1/2" x 14 3/4" of circuits for lap switch locations in the system. The 3rd diagram is 17" x 11" of track lay out of westward Conway yard showing location of retarders, switches, etc. Next is a section titled PRR Conway Yard Union Route "UR" Interlocking by union switch & signal, page count was included w/first section. Has 3 single sided pages of description of the system at yard followed by 2 pages of images of the system at locations where it was already in use. If you need more specific info email me & I will try to help. Covers are covered w/clear plastic on the inside & outside. Pages have wear at the top & bottom corners, some are dog earred due to thickness of folding diagrams & the smaller manual 517. Contents & diagrams are intact & clean, overall very good condition. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:50:43 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] East St. Louis RR list addition Prowling about in the rinky-dink railroad museum, found an 1886 Poor's Directory of Railway Officials and Railway Directors. There, once one got past the pages which in 1893-94 had been used as a scrapbook for recording the doings of the Women's Christian Temerance Union, was a table of leased railroads which said that the Venice and Carodolet was leased to the Illinois and St. Louis. Elsewhere in the book, the I&StL was said to operate in the St. Louis/E. St. Louis/Belleville area. Perhaps that V&C is the V&C Belt mentioned in the 1923 CT1000 as one of the large list of connections in the East St. Louis area? Perhaps a predecessor? Perhaps a name which lingered on after the corporation disappeared? Any comments? === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:00:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting an M1a kbt and all, Per PRR spec's... 5 lb. of Aluminum powder per 55 gallons of black paint. MIX WELL! But for us in SCALE try a 50% mixture of Testors STEEL and 50% Testors Gloss black and remember anything below the boiler and any appliances were black not Brunswick Green. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 02:36:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars Mark and All yuze SPF's, I don't wish to start a flame here but I think we need to look around and be thankful for what we do have and MODEL what we don't. Don't whine to us modelers about what you (and not just Mark here) admittedly can't do, show us what you can do! I have written enough articles (as has my brother) on Pennsy's equipment that anyone who wants to expand their fleet has a hell of a good start. And admittedly some of the past work can be improved on. And I have my bench full enough to keep me busy for years to come. It is not as bad as it seems and Mark is wrong in a couple of places too. I will address Marks post line by line. In a message mtevans@jps.net writes: << Dear Neil and PRR List Members: A few points: 1. You'll notice I specifically left out PRR Hoppers in my original post. This is because many classes are quite well represented by Stewart, Bowser and others. If all you run is hopper cars, then your postwar needs are well taken care of. That is, of course, if you like the lousy lettering job that Bowser put on their H43, for instance. Where do I get decals to take care of that?>> Right, hoppers we don't need no stinking hoppers. The Bowser H-43 decals can be had from Herald King and YES I DO KNOW THAT HERALD KING IS OUT OF BUSINESS, so go buy them while you can. While I was in Chicago I saw at least 3 shops that still had sets so get them now and tuck them away. If you have problems then I would suggest you call Des Plaines and get yours ordered. << 2. F41 - The Walthers GSI flat is a standard cast steel flat car that was produced for a number of railroads in the 50's and 60's. It is definitely not real close to a F41, as a casual look at the drawings in the Car Builder's Cyclopedias and published photos will reveal. However, I'll grant you that it is a passable stand-in until something better comes along.>> Let us not forget the GSC flat produced by Tichy as well as the Walthers. Mark, the GSC flat and the F-41 are one in the same. Check your drawings again and then check the photos and check the drawings in RMJ then check both the Tichy kit and the Walthers kit and then scratch your head then build the model. There was also a 60' 9" inch GSC car built that was the PRR class F47. Remember the Pennsy owned a chunk of GSC why would they buy some thing odd? If you are still uncertain I can give you Rich Burg's address and you write him. << 3. F31 - This car, and a number of other cars on your list, is a prewar-built car. Now I realize that they ran well into the Penn Central era, but my comments are confined to cars built new AFTER W.W.II.>> Mark, you are right it was produced prior to the second world war. Why exclude it from your roster and if it was good enough to go into service on Trailer Train it is good enough for me and there were 1500 built by PRR at Shire Oaks. << 4. X43 - I know that these cars are available. Because of that, I left these off of my list on purpose.>> Wrong, they are not currently available, and if what I saw at Rosemont was the best C&BT Shops can do they might as well sell their tooling to Dennis Storzeck! At least he understands that market and his stuff doesn't look like it was tool in the 50's. The kits from C&BT Shops are TOYS! I only hope that when they go belly up that Dennis can buy them cheap enough to retool them. I respect ACCURAIL and laugh at what C&BT is putting out since he took the big step backwards to try to capture ACCURAIL's market. YIKES! <<5. X48 - Well, there were a grand total of 20 of these on the entire PRR. Not exactly representative of the mainstream PRR freight car roster.>> Don't let that stop you, buy at least one. It is a unique car and deserves being modeled. << 6. X44 and X50 - We'll see about the Branchline car. I have a feeling some of the "easy kit-bashes" you alluded to may not be quite that easy if you are trying for a fairly accurate model.>> The X44 and X50 have different roofs and not to mention different sills. It has been suggested that Branchline is going to produce both roofs but I cannot comment on the sill. We will have to see. So far as the kitbashes go, well I have a promise I will make to all of you, I will not bring my scale rule when I'm invited to see your handy work. I guess it depends on the skill level in your modeling. All I can say to that is practice builds patients and patients creates positive results. <<7. Neil said >> As for decals if you can get any Middle Division sets you will find that they offer many post war sets.<< Your statement proves my point. "...if you can get any Middle Division sets" doesn't cut it. This is the company that produces sets when it wants to, doesn't answer phone calls and doesn't return mail with postage-paid envelopes provided for the reply. Is this the best that we can do? While I acknowledge the quality of the sets that they produce is excellent, they don't make THAT many postwar sets, and I can't get them anyway.> Again, I bought all the MIDDLE DIVISION Decals I needed in Chicago, IL as of November 1st. Also the vast majority of what Middle Division does is the more modern PRR decals very little of the line is "the Keystone on the Ball" so check your info 1st. Just call or write Des Plaines Hobbies and I know for a fact he does mail order. <> Again the H-43 is available from Herald King while they last, so get yours while you can. And unless you have not heard the owner of Micro Scale Greg Krassel died last month. Don't get your hopes up but we're working on it. <> Mark if you replace the ends with a 4-3-1 dreadnaught ends and extend the exterior post then you can come up with a very good X58, bit hold on because you might just see ACCURAIL release one as they are nearly the same car as SOO LINE's exterior post car, so... or should I say SOO... ? Mark T. Evans>> Gize, These hurdles can all be overcome if you are willing to except some compromise in your accuracy. Accuracy is a relative term. And if you are going to wait until the producer decide to make your railroads particular car you might have a long wait. The best we can hope for is a good how-to article and follow closely and check the actual photos of your project. I think we are looking for realism not necessarily replication in scale. Mark and all, you will find that when you do decide to bring your models to a local or national show whether it is NMRA, RPM or (SE, ME, or NE)MRA or just a bunch of friends most of the time a guy will be looking closely at your accomplishments no your ability to replicate the actual piece of equipment. We all do this because we like it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:21:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] K-9 stock car Barry and David, Yep saw one in Naperville at the Sunshine meet and I would say they are nice. Saves you a lot of work. We need to get you two out more! 3^) Greg Martin HAPPY THANKSGIVING ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:38:17 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] East St. Louis RR list addition (correction) ---robert netzlof wrote: >... said that the Venice and Carodolet was leased > to the Illinois and St. Louis. > Yep. I said that. Should have said Venice and Carondolet. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob Too soon we get old, too late smart. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 11:39:41 CST Subject: [PRR] Pullmans in green... Hi, all, I have a feeling we may have discussed this before but here goes. Did Pullman heavy weight sleepers in Pullman Green paint and lettered PULLMAN show up in PRR passenger trains running on the Middle Div. in the late 40's/ early 50's? I think I've seen this on some videos and have a couple of cars so painted and lettered, but I know that common practice was for Pullman HW cars to be painted in PRR passenger colors. I'm guessing that if green cars did run on the PRR they were either from connecting non-PRR trains or were Pullman pool cars not normally assigned to paricular trains or rr's. Thank! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting an M1a Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:07:21 -0500 Greg, Where did you find this information? ( Book, page, etc.) The best that I am able to find is : From 1929 information listing " Front end paint" as--(Heat resistant black graphite paint to which some aluminum powder was added. The shade of this " silvery-black" varied at different shops and enginehouses.) >From 1938 ... Locomotive Maintenance Instructions # L-54 Daily cleaning:( under "f") The smoke box front and barrel, and exposed parts of the firebox wrapper and throat sheet shall be sprayed, when necessary, with smoke box paint to which has been add 12 1/2 pounds of aluminum powder per fifty ( 50) gallons of paint. When spraying is not necessary, the appearance of these parts should be restored by polishing with burlap bagging or brushes. Monthly instructions say " see daily instructions". Bill ---------- > From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com > To: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting an M1a > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 3:00 AM > > kbt and all, > Per PRR spec's... 5 lb. of Aluminum powder per 55 gallons of black paint. > MIX WELL! But for us in SCALE try a 50% mixture of Testors STEEL and 50% > Testors Gloss black and remember anything below the boiler and any appliances > were black not Brunswick Green. > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:24:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullmans in green... In a message dated 11/25/98 10:03:18 AM Central Standard Time, George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: << I'm guessing that if green cars did run on the PRR they were either from connecting non-PRR trains or were Pullman pool cars not normally assigned to paricular trains or rr's. >> True in general, but I believe some Pullman (green) cars were assigned by Pullman to PRR for long terms without repainting, Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] York, Pa. Update Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 12:28:53 -0500 From: Jerry Spoke with Bill Lewis last night...he's the president of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS. The Liberty Limited Dinner Train, operating out of New Freedom, has been running over the streets of York into the York station since last January. However, according to owner Ken Bitten, the City of York just recinded its agreement and is forcing the trains to stop at "Hyde", a location just outside the city limits. I can't imagine why the city is doing this. It is in the middle of trying to make its downtown area more attractive. True, the train isn't the prettiest to look at -- mainly because the cars are leased and not owned -- but the food is as good as any four star restaurant I've ever eaten at. (Yes, it really is!) Related: The rumor mill suggests that the York Passenger Station is on the market. Got an extra $340,000? Word is, that's the price. Supposedly the owner passed away a few years ago and the family wants to part with it. It has already been restored and houses a photo studio in part of the first floor, but that business has been sold. Would make an awesome museum. The nearby Western Maryland station has just been restored for use as offices. Neat! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:18:27 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullmans in green... ---Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/25/98 10:03:18 AM Central Standard Time, > George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: > > << I'm guessing that > if green cars did run on the PRR they were either from connecting non-PRR > trains or were Pullman pool cars not normally assigned to paricular trains > or rr's. >> > > True in general, but I believe some Pullman (green) cars were assigned by > Pullman to PRR for long terms without repainting, > > Bob Zoeller > > I suspect World War 2 had a lot to do with breaking the "red only" policy. Certainly during the war there were many green Pullmans (and other oddities) running on the main line. But, that's just a little too early to be "early 40's". === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brandt" Subject: [PRR] South Penn Operating Shows Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:22:17 -0500 Just a note, we are opening up this weekend for our annual schedule of shows. We are at 520 N. Charlotte St. in Lancaster, Pa. We started over again this year, due to unsatisfactory benchwork. We have the entire main line in, including Horseshoe Curve. The section with the curve is approx 20 x 50 ft. Our 6 main yard tracks will hold about a 50-60 car train on each. The round house is in place, and we will be working on it as we are there for the shows. Our control is the MRC Command 2000 for this year. We will probably be changing to Digitrax if they can get on schedule with our supplier. We are also using Del-Aire switch machines. Our hours and dates are: Nov. 28 & 29 Dec. 5 & 6 Dec. 12 & 13 Dec. 19 & 20 Dec. 26 & 27 Jan. 2 & 3 Times are 1:00 P.M. to 4:30 Any questions or for directions, please contact me: Brian Brandt trains@redrose.net or, 717-581-0647 Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] NEAT NEW POSTAGE STAMPS FOR '99 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 16:13:59 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Check out the cool new USPS stamps for '99! Rob prr.railfan.net ------- Forwarded Message - -----Original Message----- From: CARL PERELMAN [mailto:RPnews@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 3:24 PM To: RPnews@worldnet.att.net Subject: NEAT NEW POSTAGE STAMPS FOR '99 All Aboard! 20th Century American Trains These five, colorful stamps pay tribute to American industry and design, and specifically to the heritage of our railroads. The five Art Deco-style passenger trains featured are the Daylight, the Congressional, the 20th Century Limited, the Hiawatha and the Super Chief. Artist Ted Rose used watercolor to portray each train and its representative background. Descriptive text is included on the gummed side of each stamp. View the Full Collector's Pane http://www.usps.gov/images/stamps/99/all_aboard.htm ------- End of Forwarded Message ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Another Use For DCC! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 15:24:15 -0500 From: Jerry There's a neat thread going on in the Digitrax list right now. Of course we all know the primary use of DCC is throttle control without the need for blocking. You can also use DCC for route control (hit one button to align numerous turnouts). With WinLock software on a PC (or Mac with emulation) you can also monitor block occupancy on a CCT screen online. The screen appears to have multi-color LEDs that change as the train moves across the layout. It can be programed to control turnouts and automate movements, etc. But here's a new use: There's a guy who uses the block occupancy circuit, via WinLock, to play .MOV files. Think of the applications: * Announce when a train is arriving/departing the station * Track detectors (when a train is about to appear from hidden staging) * Simulated trainphone talk as a train passes a tower * Etc. Now this is really COOL! 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:24:50 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR in Dayton, Ohio (VERY long) In a message dated 11/24/98 10:47:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, dbritton@vmuse.com writes: << My father and I are finally really beginning our father-son railroad layout 15 years after buying our first set. We live in Dayton, OH and want to model some of the PRR including any trackage they had through Dayton as well as the Latrobe, PA area. I'm in the process of doing research on where they ran through Dayton. So far, all I have is a 1907 Dayton Vicinity map showing some of the PRR line. Any pointers on books or other ways to get this info would be greatly appreciated. We plan on focusing our model on the Steam to Diesel transition as I like the early Diesels while my Dad is a Steam freak. Bottom line is: we're ballparking the 1940's and 1950's... TIA, Dave Britton dbritton@vmuse.com >> Howdy Dave, I'm Tom Vondruska, I live in Yellow Springs. I am an admitted Serious Pennsy Fan. Modeling the PRR in the Miami Valley is fun because there's so many choices. If its mainline action, yards and shops ya' want, then model Xenia, Urbana or Bradford. Like passenger action model Xenia or Richmond, 20+ trains daily in 1950 or Dayton, which only had 16-18 a day. If you want to find the Panhandle passenger mainline, head east or west looking for bike paths. By 2001 the Panhandle Passenger Line will be a paved bike path from the Montgomery-Greene County line on the north side of US 35 in Beavercreek just west off the I-675 interchange through Xenia, Cedarville, South Charleston into London. Between Dayton and Xenia it was a single-track mainline and known as the Dayton, Xenia & Belpre (to avoid confusion with the much later traction line, the Dayton & Xenia Railway Co From Xenia to Columbus it was the double-tracked Columbus & Xenia RR. Both were owned by the Little Miami RR Co. The LMRR right of way is now the 72-mile Little Miami Scenic Trail from Springfield through Yellow Springs, Xenia, Spring Valley, Corwin (Waynesville) Morrow and Loveland to Milford. West of Dayton it was Dayton & Western Railroad, another Little Miami-owned line (not to be confused with a later traction line, the Dayton & Western Railway Co.) It shared the single-track main with the Dayton & Union RR, later a B&O property, out to Dodson just north of I-70 at Brookville. There it turned west toward Richmond. The D&W is a bike path from the Olive Road crossing south of downtown Trotwood to Brookville Heading from Beavercreek and Riverside west the Panhandle crossed the Dayton city limits at Clement, a grade separated crossing of the B&Os Dayton & Ironton, an ex-narrow gauge line paralleling Woodman Drive which became the PRR's Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Railway. This abandoned crossing just north of Easttown Shopping Center is clearly visible from the US 35 railroad overpass between Woodman and Smithville Road. The line is still active west and south of Clement. Conrail uses it as a spur serving GM's Delphi (DELCO) plants in Kettering. More on the CL&N later. Past the Smithville Road the BX&B starts down the 1%+ grade to downtown Dayton in the Great Miami River flood plain on high embankment beginning at Klee Avenue that angles north from US 35, crosses Linden Ave. and runs on the north side of Hamilton Ave. before reaching grade again at the St. Jude (formerly St. Paul) St. crossing a block or so east of the East Fifth Street grade crossing. (The grade may continue for another mile west to Dutoit Street as listed on some PRR employee timetables but the steepest part of the grade is the less than a mile between Klee Ave. and St. Jude Street) Still running at a northwesterly angle the line reached the south side of East Third Street at South Keowee Street which is where it enters the downtown viaducts. A block west of Keowee and a block east of the Dayton Union Terminal Assn. overpass across East Third is Dutoit Street, noticeable for its small concrete overpass with Pennsylvania cast in relief. Dutoit Street is the PRR employee timetable landmark for Waynetown or Wayne Tower on the south side of Third Street west of the overpass across from the southern end of Webster Street that controlled the entry of the Panhandle into the Union Terminal trackage and the divergent B&O and NYC/Erie lines a block north and the eastern approaches of Dayton Union Terminal at West Sixth and South Wilkinson streets. The D&W left DUTA trackage at Miamitown Tower at the west end of the three- span through truss Great Miami River bridge. It then headed almost straight northwest crossing Broadway, Germantown, West Fifth and West Thirds streets. Some maps I've seen show Pennsy spurs serving the area of the Inland plant. The D&W and D&U crossed Wolf Creek at Rosedale Avenue just south of West Riverview Avenue. It then generally followed the north bank of Wolf Creek out of the flood plain to Trotwood, giving it a much gentler grade than the DX&B. It paralleled Western Avenue for a while across the creek. The line then crossed Gettysburg Avenue before hitting open country (at least when I was a kid in the 1960s and early 1970s) at Diamond Mill Road. The Dayton Daily News had a story in 1997 that said an outfit calling itself "Northwestern Railroad" would ooperate the D&W as a local switching line from Miamitown to Olive Road in Trotwood. There was also Branch Line Railroading on the PRR in the Miami Valley. Before 1953 there were some fairly interesting passenger operations on the Springfield Branch (the Little Miami Railroad north of Xenia) that ran north from the Panhandle main in Xenia, up along the east curb of Detroit Street (US 68) past the Greene County Court House, through Yellow Springs into downtown Springfield. This included a daily passenger run each way between Springfield and Cincinnati with a Doodlebug. While the primary PRR service facilities for the line were in Xenia and Richmond, there was a PRR freight terminal in Dayton, located atop the levee on the east bank of the Great Miami at the eastern end of the Washington Street bridge, south of Union Terminal on the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern, also known as the Lebanon branch or the Lytle Secondary. The CL&N left the terminal trackage between Union Terminal and the Great Miami on a curve so tight it might actually be found on a model railroad layout. The curve was so sharp that in the days of steam nothing larger than an H-10 2-8-0 Consolidation could negotiate it. This was the line that served the NCR world headquarters. Past Washington Street it ran atop the levee to just north of Stewart Street where it turned southeast and crossed Patterson Blvd. on the overpass with classic Pennsy Keystones cast in relief into its concrete facings. As ran through the massive NCR works the line crossed West Stewart, South Main, Brown and Alberta Streets. It then ran along the southern edge of the University of Dayton and crossed Irving Avenue just past the spur that served the Dayton State Hospital. Between the Irving Avenue and Shroyer Road grade crossings the CL&N marked the eastern edge of Oakwood, Dayton's "old money" suburb and passed beneath Patterson Road on a grade separated crossing, and overpass that's been removed. There is a short bike path along the right-of-way in this area. South of Shroyer Road there was another big PRR customer, the federal Defense Electronic Supply Center which in the early 1960s had its own US Air Force switcher, which I remember as a Baldwin S-something in USAF blue. South of DESC the line crossed Dorothy Lane. The CL&N's "Pasadena" station in Kettering still stands in its original location just north of Devon Avenue where it has been incorporated as part of the vacant WagnerWood lumber yard buildings. At Hempstead just south of the CL&N's Stroop Road crossing it met this lines original route laid down in the early 1880s as the part of the Narrow gauge Toledo, Cincinnati, St. Louis & Delphos. Later known as the Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati before its purchase by the CL&N, this is the line that followed the west side of Woodman Drive north across Forrer Blvd. and Patterson Road. At Toledo Jct. just south of its Woodbine Drive crossing, the B&O's Ironton branch or Dayton & Ironton cut off east into Greene County. This line then crosses Linden Avenue on the west side of Easttown Shopping Center, runs beneath the US 35 railroad overpass between Woodman and Smithville., Ya'll might want to head out to see the Operating Diorama of Xenia's Railroads 1920s-1950s in the Greene County Historical Society's Carriage House Museum, behind the K mart at 34 W. Church St. less than a block off of US 68 two blocks north of the Greene County Court House. Thursdays are work sessions. That'll be the location of the PRR Lines West Fans Fest I'm organizing for April 10, 1999. Its the first meeting focused of railfans, rail historians and models devoted solely to the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines West of Pittsburgh & Erie, Pa. which had a distinct identity after being operated as an independent railroad from 1871 to 1923. A tip on era selection and PRR motive power: This area was one of the first dieselized by the PRR. While steam ran on the Sandusky branch until the bitter end in 1956 and 1957, Xenia's coaling and watering facilities were razed in 1951. SHIFTERS: There were about six Fairbanks-Morse H-10-44s and H-12-44s assigned to switching duties in Xenia and Dayton. The re were H-20-44 road switchers assigned to Cincinnati which could have found their way to Dayton. The huge Lima-Hamiltopn or Lima-Hamilton Baldwin 2,500 hp centercab transfer motors were also found in this area. I have yet to see any shot of early EMD diesel shifters in Southwest Ohio. ROAD DIESELS: I've seen shots of just about every first generation class PRR mainline diesel on the Panhandle's "passenger line" in Greene and Montgomery counties including a Baldwin Centipede and a Sharknose. and ALCO PAs and PBs. Remember that in 1950 all diesels wore DGLE. STEAM: Just about any late steam era power could be found on the Columbus Division main. K4 4-6-2 Pacific's and T1 4-4-4-4s pulled the varnish, Mountains, Js and Decapods pulled through freights with the Consolidations taking the local and work train assignments Any Questions? Tom V, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bowtrolley" Subject: [PRR] Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:54:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1894.3E35EB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi- I'm the President of the Brooklyn Trolley Museum in Brooklyn NY. = Were building a 3/4 mile trolley line along the Brooklyn waterfront, = opposite the Statue of Liberty. Recently, we acquired 5 US&S T2's. They seem to be all there, but we = need wiring diagrams and service manuals, as we plan to restore them to = use.=20 We also need some technical advice with connecting them to the track. = The rails are both going to be carrying the 600VDC return from the = traction power, like the LIRR and the West Jersey & Seashore.=20 We would be glad to reimburse reproduction and mailing costs, and would = greatly appreciate any technical advice. Thanks, Bob Diamond Bowtrolley@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1894.3E35EB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi- I'm the President of the = Brooklyn Trolley=20 Museum in Brooklyn NY. Were building a 3/4 mile trolley line along the = Brooklyn=20 waterfront, opposite the Statue of Liberty.
 
Recently, we acquired 5 US&S = T2's. They seem=20 to be all there, but we need wiring diagrams and service manuals, as we = plan to=20 restore them to use.
 
We also need some technical advice = with=20 connecting them to the track. The rails are both going to be carrying = the 600VDC=20 return from the traction power, like the LIRR and the West Jersey &=20 Seashore.
 
We would be glad to reimburse = reproduction and=20 mailing costs, and would greatly appreciate any technical = advice.
 
Thanks,
Bob Diamond
Bowtrolley@msn.com
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1894.3E35EB20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] York, Pa. Update ------Wrong Story ! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:06:23 -0500 Jerry, The city of "York, PA" did not rescind it's agreement with the Northern Central Railroad and the operation of the dinner train! The City of York's only agreement is that it wants the train to come to York. "Emons Corporation " (of Ma & Pa fame) owners of the track, and lessors of the trackage rights to the NCR,(for specific diner train operation), did in fact pull back there agreement to allow the NCR to operate on there rails. The NCR is in negotiations for some specific runs for the end of year ( New Years for one!) Bill > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] York, Pa. Update > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 12:28 PM > > Spoke with Bill Lewis last night...he's the president of the Northern > Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS. > > The Liberty Limited Dinner Train, operating out of New Freedom, has been > running over the streets of York into the York station since last > January. However, according to owner Ken Bitten, the City of York just > recinded its agreement and is forcing the trains to stop at "Hyde", a > location just outside the city limits. > > I can't imagine why the city is doing this. It is in the middle of trying > to make its downtown area more attractive. True, the train isn't the > prettiest to look at -- mainly because the cars are leased and not owned > -- but the food is as good as any four star restaurant I've ever eaten > at. (Yes, it really is!) > > Related: The rumor mill suggests that the York Passenger Station is on > the market. Got an extra $340,000? Word is, that's the price. Supposedly > the owner passed away a few years ago and the family wants to part with > it. It has already been restored and houses a photo studio in part of the > first floor, but that business has been sold. > > Would make an awesome museum. The nearby Western Maryland station has > just been restored for use as offices. Neat! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] York, Pa. Update ------Wrong Story ! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 18:46:51 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/25/98 6:06 PM, Bill Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) wrote: >The city of "York, PA" did not rescind it's agreement with the Northern >Central Railroad and the operation of the dinner train! The City of York's >only agreement is that it wants the train to come to York. "Emons >Corporation " (of Ma & Pa fame) owners of the track, and lessors of the >trackage rights to the NCR,(for specific diner train operation), did in >fact pull back there agreement to allow the NCR to operate on there rails. >The NCR is in negotiations for some specific runs for the end of year ( New >Years for one!) I'm hearing things second hand, so I can't say which one is authoritative. But when Bill Lewis told me it was the city that pulled the plug, I asked if it wasn't really Emons (Ma & Pa, YorkRail) and he was insistent that Ken Bitten -- owner of the Liberty Limited -- said it was indeed the city. Coincidentally, the city is making many of their one way streets run two ways again, beginning this week. Perhaps they are attempting to avert confusion with trains running down the middle of the streets! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:12:19 -0800 To Greg, Rich and the PRR List: Let me first say that there should be no worry of starting a flame war with me, and my recent freight car comments on the list are not meant to do likewise with others. I think that robust, healthy debate on subjects like this serve to (1) inform, (2) motivate, and (3) present issues that are not discussed anywhere else. To me, this is what lists like this (and the hobby) are all about. Now, some specific comments concerning Greg's post: Greg said >>These hurdles can all be overcome if you are willing to except some compromise in your accuracy. Accuracy is a relative term. And if you are going to wait until the producer decide to make your railroads particular car you might have a long wait. The best we can hope for is a good how-to article and follow closely and check the actual photos of your project. I think we are looking for realism not necessarily replication in scale.<< What I want in a freight car model is a level of accuracy comparable to an equivalent state-of-the-art locomotive, caboose, or structure currently available. I don't understand why I should accept a "double standard" of accuracy between, say, my locomotive models and my freight car models. If Athearn or Life-Like get one louver or door hinge out of place on a locomotive model, they get pilloried in the model press (and lists like this). While I think that a certain amount of this criticism is uncalled for, the constant demand for quality and accuracy by the modeling public has caused manufacturers to raise the bar to the point where the latest locomotive offerings by Athearn, Like-Like and other firms are equal to or better that brass at a fraction of the price. What I don't understand is why many modelers don't seem to care much about ensuring that the "level" of accuracy of their freight car models is comparable to their locos. Life-Like, for one, has proven that fairly accurate, easily assembled kits are "doable." If we PRR fans are content to sit back and accept mediocrity in terms of the available, variety and accuracy of models of PRR equipment, then I guess that we deserve whatever we get. Remember, the squeaky wheel get the grease. Manufacturers have to produce some new products now and then to stay in business. Why can't it be accurate PRR-prototype freight cars? It may be that most PRR modelers (and list members) are satisfied by what's currently available on the market. I really don't know. Certainly the variety of PRR freight equipment available has never been better, and I'm well aware of that. One of the reasons I started this thread in the first place was to see how much interest there is out there in pushing manufacturers to produce more postwar PRR freight cars. I suggested that we start a "Most Wanted Freight Car List" to see where the interests (if any) are. So far, it's too early to tell. Some remaining short takes: 1. Herald King H43 decals - if you like them, fine. But the fonts that they used sure don't look like the PRR lettering I see on my H43 photos. I think that I'll wait until something better comes along. And that time may be closer than you think. 2. PRR F41 drawings - 1961 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, p.128. Standard GSI flat (prototype for Walthers/Tichy flat) - 1961 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, p.130. No need to call Rich Burg and bother him; I can see the significant differences without his help. To answer your question: >>Remember the Pennsy owned a chunk of GSC why would they buy some thing odd?<< The answer is, of course, BECAUSE it was the Pennsy. The F41 is a unique PRR design, which came first. GSI took the PRR design, altered/refined it, and sold it to other railroads later. 3. I just BOUGHT the Bowser F30a and I like it! Now I want an accurate F41 to go with it. 4. About the only way to get a relatively accurate X58 from the Athearn model is to jack it up and run a good model under it. As far as Accurail goes, well, let's just say I was hoping that Bowser would do the X58 instead. Accurail's forte seems to be to take a pretty good model, say, the old Front Range 50-ft. box cars, cut the ladders into the dies, and basically create something which looks coarser than my old Roco PS-1's of the 1960's. I'll take Life-Like, Red Caboose, etc. instead. But, hey, if you like their stuff, great! 5. Middle Division decals - D&S Hobbies in New Jersey has them too. What was it that their salesman told me? "Better get them while they last!" I'm not going to kiss Middle Divison's a**. I'm amazed that people put up with outfits like this. I'll either wait for Microscale or make them myself. In conclusion, I have a final comment: Greg said >>Mark and all, you will find that when you do decide to bring your models to a local or national show whether it is NMRA, RPM or (SE, ME, or NE)MRA or just a bunch of friends most of the time a guy will be looking closely at your accomplishments not your ability to replicate the actual piece of equipment. We all do this because we like it.<< Greg, my modeling friends and I (1) look closely at each other's accomplishments, (2) gauge our ability to replicate the actual piece of equipment, AND (3) do this because we like it. These three pursuits are not mutually exclusive, in spite of what you might read or hear (or feel yourself). In fact, they have proved very satisfying to yours truly, as well as my friends. In some quarters, this quest is called "the pursuit of excellence." We just call it fun. Mark T. Evans ---------- > From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com > To: mtevans@jps.net; rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU > Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:36 PM > > Mark and All yuze SPF's, > > I don't wish to start a flame here but I think we need to look around and be > thankful for what we do have and MODEL what we don't. Don't whine to us > modelers about what you (and not just Mark here) admittedly can't do, show us > what you can do! I have written enough articles (as has my brother) on > Pennsy's equipment that anyone who wants to expand their fleet has a hell of a > good start. And admittedly some of the past work can be improved on. And I > have my bench full enough to keep me busy for years to come. It is not as bad > as it seems and Mark is wrong in a couple of places too. I will address Marks > post line by line. > > > In a message mtevans@jps.net writes: > > << Dear Neil and PRR List Members: > > A few points: > > 1. You'll notice I specifically left out PRR Hoppers in my original post. > This is because many classes are quite well represented by Stewart, Bowser > and others. If all you run is hopper cars, then your postwar needs are well > taken care of. That is, of course, if you like the lousy lettering job that > Bowser put on their H43, for instance. Where do I get decals to take care > of that?>> > > Right, hoppers we don't need no stinking hoppers. The Bowser H-43 decals can > be had from Herald King and YES I DO KNOW THAT HERALD KING IS OUT OF BUSINESS, > so go buy them while you can. While I was in Chicago I saw at least 3 shops > that still had sets so get them now and tuck them away. If you have problems > then I would suggest you call Des Plaines and get yours ordered. > > << 2. F41 - The Walthers GSI flat is a standard cast steel flat car that was > produced for a number of railroads in the 50's and 60's. It is definitely > not real close to a F41, as a casual look at the drawings in the Car > Builder's Cyclopedias and published photos will reveal. However, I'll > grant you that it is a passable stand-in until something better comes > along.>> > > Let us not forget the GSC flat produced by Tichy as well as the Walthers. > Mark, the GSC flat and the F-41 are one in the same. Check your drawings > again and then check the photos and check the drawings in RMJ then check both > the Tichy kit and the Walthers kit and then scratch your head then build the > model. There was also a 60' 9" inch GSC car built that was the PRR class F47. > Remember the Pennsy owned a chunk of GSC why would they buy some thing odd? > If you are still uncertain I can give you Rich Burg's address and you write > him. > > << 3. F31 - > This car, and a number of other cars on your list, is a > prewar-built car. Now I realize that they ran well into the Penn Central > era, but my comments are confined to cars built new AFTER W.W.II.>> > > Mark, you are right it was produced prior to the second world war. Why > exclude it from your roster and if it was good enough to go into service on > Trailer Train it is good enough for me and there were 1500 built by PRR at > Shire Oaks. > > << 4. X43 - I know that these cars are available. Because of that, I left > these off of my list on purpose.>> > > Wrong, they are not currently available, and if what I saw at Rosemont was the > best C&BT Shops can do they might as well sell their tooling to Dennis > Storzeck! At least he understands that market and his stuff doesn't look like > it was tool in the 50's. The kits from C&BT Shops are TOYS! I only hope that > when they go belly up that Dennis can buy them cheap enough to retool them. I > respect ACCURAIL and laugh at what C&BT is putting out since he took the big > step backwards to try to capture ACCURAIL's market. YIKES! > > <<5. X48 - Well, there were a grand total of 20 of these on the entire PRR. > Not exactly representative of the mainstream PRR freight car roster.>> > > Don't let that stop you, buy at least one. It is a unique car and deserves > being modeled. > > << 6. X44 and X50 - We'll see about the Branchline car. I have a feeling some > of the "easy kit-bashes" you alluded to may not be quite that easy if you > are trying for a fairly accurate model.>> > > The X44 and X50 have different roofs and not to mention different sills. It > has been suggested that Branchline is going to produce both roofs but I cannot > comment on the sill. We will have to see. So far as the kitbashes go, well I > have a promise I will make to all of you, I will not bring my scale rule when > I'm invited to see your handy work. I guess it depends on the skill level in > your modeling. All I can say to that is practice builds patients and patients > creates positive results. > > <<7. Neil said >> As for decals if you can get any Middle Division sets you > will find that they offer many post war sets.<< Your statement proves my > point. "...if you can get any Middle Division sets" doesn't cut it. This > is the company that produces sets when it wants to, doesn't answer phone > calls and doesn't return mail with postage-paid envelopes provided for the > reply. Is this the best that we can do? While I acknowledge the quality of > the sets that they produce is excellent, they don't make THAT many postwar > sets, and I can't get them anyway.> > > Again, I bought all the MIDDLE DIVISION Decals I needed in Chicago, IL as of > November 1st. Also the vast majority of what Middle Division does is the more > modern PRR decals very little of the line is "the Keystone on the Ball" so > check your info 1st. Just call or write Des Plaines Hobbies and I know for a > fact he does mail order. > > < about a PRR 86' hycube? Or a set for the X57? I'm not a big fan of piecing my > lettering together letter by letter. We have a long way to go to get a > representative set of PRR freight car decal sets on the market. Hopefully > Microscale will help to correct this in the near future.>> > > Again the H-43 is available from Herald King while they last, so get yours > while you can. And unless you have not heard the owner of Micro Scale Greg > Krassel died last month. Don't get your hopes up but we're working on it. > > < list." Athearn's outside post car is just not a very good stand-in. Decals > for the X58 would be nice, too.>> > > Mark if you replace the ends with a 4-3-1 dreadnaught ends and extend the > exterior post then you can come up with a very good X58, bit hold on because > you might just see ACCURAIL release one as they are nearly the same car as SOO > LINE's exterior post car, so... or should I say SOO... ? > > Mark T. Evans>> > > Gize, > These hurdles can all be overcome if you are willing to except some > compromise in your accuracy. Accuracy is a relative term. And if you are > going to wait until the producer decide to make your railroads particular car > you might have a long wait. The best we can hope for is a good how-to article > and follow closely and check the actual photos of your project. I think we > are looking for realism not necessarily replication in scale. Mark and all, > you will find that when you do decide to bring your models to a local or > national show whether it is NMRA, RPM or (SE, ME, or NE)MRA or just a bunch of > friends most of the time a guy will be looking closely at your accomplishments > no your ability to replicate the actual piece of equipment. We all do this > because we like it. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:45:55 -0500 From: steve long Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] --------------F5BE220AF34CB5FA91E3937A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You really need to contact US&S, (I think they are called Wabco now) since you are dealing with DC current return, to do this the signaling system will be A C current where the blocks are isolated by Electrical Inductors called Chokes. You are actually dealing with traction signaling. It 's a whole different ball game than what is the usual. It's a lot more elaborate and capital intensive. Most subways are setup this way. Good luck, Steve Long bowtrolley wrote: > Hi- I'm the President of the Brooklyn Trolley Museum in Brooklyn NY. > Were building a 3/4 mile trolley line along the Brooklyn waterfront, > opposite the Statue of Liberty. Recently, we acquired 5 US&S T2's. > They seem to be all there, but we need wiring diagrams and service > manuals, as we plan to restore them to use. We also need some > technical advice with connecting them to the track. The rails are both > going to be carrying the 600VDC return from the traction power, like > the LIRR and the West Jersey & Seashore. We would be glad to reimburse > reproduction and mailing costs, and would greatly appreciate any > technical advice. Thanks,Bob DiamondBowtrolley@msn.com --------------F5BE220AF34CB5FA91E3937A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You really need to contact US&S, (I think they are called Wabco now) since you are dealing with DC current return, to do this the signaling system will be A C current where the blocks are isolated by Electrical Inductors called Chokes.  You are actually dealing with traction signaling. It 's a whole different ball game than what is the usual. It's a lot more elaborate and capital intensive. Most subways are setup this way. Good luck, Steve Long 

bowtrolley wrote:

 Hi- I'm the President of the Brooklyn Trolley Museum in Brooklyn NY. Were building a 3/4 mile trolley line along the Brooklyn waterfront, opposite the Statue of Liberty. Recently, we acquired 5 US&S T2's. They seem to be all there, but we need wiring diagrams and service manuals, as we plan to restore them to use. We also need some technical advice with connecting them to the track. The rails are both going to be carrying the 600VDC return from the traction power, like the LIRR and the West Jersey & Seashore. We would be glad to reimburse reproduction and mailing costs, and would greatly appreciate any technical advice. Thanks,Bob DiamondBowtrolley@msn.com
  --------------F5BE220AF34CB5FA91E3937A-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: [PRR] PRR F41 Correction Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:15:04 -0800 To Greg and the PRR List: In an earlier post, I said >>The F41 is a unique PRR design, which came first. GSI took the PRR design, altered/refined it, and sold it to other railroads later.<< After doing some additional research, I found that this statement of mine is only partially true. Actually, GSI had a 53-6" cast steel flat on the market several years BEFORE the F41-class cars were built. However, it is true that the original F41 design is unique to the PRR. Several parts of the car, especially the side sill depth over the trucks and the deck arrangement at the B end, are quite different from other standard GSI flats. I apologize for the error. Mark T. Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:53:11 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR] On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, steve long wrote: > You really need to contact US&S, (I think they are called Wabco now) their headquarters building (US&S) is a mile or so from where I work, so i think you're wrong:-) both are divisions of American Standard (who also makes plumbing, toilets, etc, apparently) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:09:12 -0500 From: steve long Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Dayton, Ohio (VERY long) Tom, that was a nice piece on Dayton, you should be proud. Steve Long LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/24/98 10:47:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, > dbritton@vmuse.com writes: > > << > My father and I are finally really beginning our father-son railroad > layout 15 years after buying our first set. We live in Dayton, OH > and want to model some of the PRR including any trackage they had > through Dayton as well as the Latrobe, PA area. I'm in the process > of doing research on where they ran through Dayton. So far, all I > have is a 1907 Dayton Vicinity map showing some of the PRR line. > > Any pointers on books or other ways to get this info would be greatly > appreciated. We plan on focusing our model on the Steam to Diesel > transition as I like the early Diesels while my Dad is a Steam freak. > Bottom line is: we're ballparking the 1940's and 1950's... > > TIA, > > Dave Britton > dbritton@vmuse.com >> > > Howdy Dave, > > I'm Tom Vondruska, I live in Yellow Springs. I am an admitted Serious Pennsy > Fan. > > Modeling the PRR in the Miami Valley is fun because there's so many choices. > If its mainline action, yards and shops ya' want, then model Xenia, Urbana or > Bradford. > Like passenger action model Xenia or Richmond, 20+ trains daily in 1950 or > Dayton, which only had 16-18 a day. > If you want to find the Panhandle passenger mainline, head east or west > looking for bike paths. By 2001 the Panhandle Passenger Line will be a paved > bike path from the Montgomery-Greene County line on the north side of US 35 in > Beavercreek just west off the I-675 interchange through Xenia, Cedarville, > South Charleston into London. Between Dayton and Xenia it was a single-track > mainline and known as the Dayton, Xenia & Belpre (to avoid confusion with the > much later traction line, the Dayton & Xenia Railway Co From Xenia to Columbus > it was the double-tracked Columbus & Xenia RR. Both were owned by the Little > Miami RR Co. The LMRR right of way is now the 72-mile Little Miami Scenic > Trail from Springfield through Yellow Springs, Xenia, Spring Valley, Corwin > (Waynesville) Morrow and Loveland to Milford. > West of Dayton it was Dayton & Western Railroad, another Little Miami-owned > line (not to be confused with a later traction line, the Dayton & Western > Railway Co.) It shared the single-track main with the Dayton & Union RR, > later a B&O property, out to Dodson just north of I-70 at Brookville. There it > turned west toward Richmond. > The D&W is a bike path from the Olive Road crossing south of downtown > Trotwood to Brookville > Heading from Beavercreek and Riverside west the Panhandle crossed the Dayton > city limits at Clement, a grade separated crossing of the B&Os Dayton & > Ironton, an ex-narrow gauge line paralleling Woodman Drive which became the > PRR's Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Railway. This abandoned crossing just > north of Easttown Shopping Center is clearly visible from the US 35 railroad > overpass between Woodman and Smithville Road. > The line is still active west and south of Clement. Conrail uses it as a spur > serving GM's Delphi (DELCO) plants in Kettering. More on the CL&N later. > Past the Smithville Road the BX&B starts down the 1%+ grade to downtown > Dayton in the Great Miami River flood plain on high embankment beginning at > Klee Avenue that angles north from US 35, crosses Linden Ave. and runs on the > north side of Hamilton Ave. before reaching grade again at the St. Jude > (formerly St. Paul) St. crossing a block or so east of the East Fifth Street > grade crossing. (The grade may continue for another mile west to Dutoit Street > as listed on some PRR employee timetables but the steepest part of the grade > is the less than a mile between Klee Ave. and St. Jude Street) > Still running at a northwesterly angle the line reached the south side of > East Third Street at South Keowee Street which is where it enters the downtown > viaducts. A block west of Keowee and a block east of the Dayton Union Terminal > Assn. overpass across East Third is Dutoit Street, noticeable for its small > concrete overpass with Pennsylvania cast in relief. Dutoit Street is the PRR > employee timetable landmark for Waynetown or Wayne Tower on the south side of > Third Street west of the overpass across from the southern end of Webster > Street that controlled the entry of the Panhandle into the Union Terminal > trackage and the divergent B&O and NYC/Erie lines a block north and the > eastern approaches of Dayton Union Terminal at West Sixth and South Wilkinson > streets. > The D&W left DUTA trackage at Miamitown Tower at the west end of the three- > span through truss Great Miami River bridge. It then headed almost straight > northwest crossing Broadway, Germantown, West Fifth and West Thirds streets. > Some maps I've seen show Pennsy spurs serving the area of the Inland plant. > The D&W and D&U crossed Wolf Creek at Rosedale Avenue just south of West > Riverview Avenue. It then generally followed the north bank of Wolf Creek out > of the flood plain to Trotwood, giving it a much gentler grade than the DX&B. > It paralleled Western Avenue for a while across the creek. The line then > crossed Gettysburg Avenue before hitting open country (at least when I was a > kid in the 1960s and early 1970s) at Diamond Mill Road. > The Dayton Daily News had a story in 1997 that said an outfit calling itself > "Northwestern Railroad" would ooperate the D&W as a local switching line from > Miamitown to Olive Road in Trotwood. > > There was also Branch Line Railroading on the PRR in the Miami Valley. Before > 1953 there were some fairly interesting passenger operations on the > Springfield Branch (the Little Miami Railroad north of Xenia) that ran north > from the Panhandle main in Xenia, up along the east curb of Detroit Street (US > 68) past the Greene County Court House, through Yellow Springs into downtown > Springfield. This included a daily passenger run each way between Springfield > and Cincinnati with a Doodlebug. > While the primary PRR service facilities for the line were in Xenia and > Richmond, there was a PRR freight terminal in Dayton, located atop the levee > on the east bank of the Great Miami at the eastern end of the Washington > Street bridge, south of Union Terminal on the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern, > also known as the Lebanon branch or the Lytle Secondary. > The CL&N left the terminal trackage between Union Terminal and the Great > Miami on a curve so tight it might actually be found on a model railroad > layout. The curve was so sharp that in the days of steam nothing larger than > an H-10 2-8-0 Consolidation could negotiate it. This was the line that served > the NCR world headquarters. > Past Washington Street it ran atop the levee to just north of Stewart Street > where it turned southeast and crossed Patterson Blvd. on the overpass with > classic Pennsy Keystones cast in relief into its concrete facings. As ran > through the massive NCR works the line crossed West Stewart, South Main, Brown > and Alberta Streets. It then ran along the southern edge of the University of > Dayton and crossed Irving Avenue just past the spur that served the Dayton > State Hospital. Between the Irving Avenue and Shroyer Road grade crossings the > CL&N marked the eastern edge of Oakwood, Dayton's "old money" suburb and > passed beneath Patterson Road on a grade separated crossing, and overpass > that's been removed. There is a short bike path along the right-of-way in this > area. > South of Shroyer Road there was another big PRR customer, the federal Defense > Electronic Supply Center which in the early 1960s had its own US Air Force > switcher, which I remember as a Baldwin S-something in USAF blue. South of > DESC > the line crossed Dorothy Lane. The CL&N's "Pasadena" station in Kettering > still stands in its original location just north of Devon Avenue where it has > been incorporated as part of the vacant WagnerWood lumber yard buildings. > At Hempstead just south of the CL&N's Stroop Road crossing it met this lines > original route laid down in the early 1880s as the part of the Narrow gauge > Toledo, Cincinnati, St. Louis & Delphos. Later known as the Dayton, Lebanon & > Cincinnati before its purchase by the CL&N, this is the line that followed the > west side of Woodman Drive north across Forrer Blvd. and Patterson Road. At > Toledo Jct. just south of its Woodbine Drive crossing, the B&O's Ironton > branch or Dayton & Ironton cut off east into Greene County. This line then > crosses Linden Avenue on the west side of Easttown Shopping Center, runs > beneath the US 35 railroad overpass between Woodman and Smithville., > > Ya'll might want to head out to see the Operating Diorama of Xenia's > Railroads 1920s-1950s in the Greene County Historical Society's Carriage House > Museum, behind the K mart at 34 W. Church St. less than a block off of US 68 > two blocks north of the Greene County Court House. Thursdays are work > sessions. > That'll be the location of the PRR Lines West Fans Fest I'm organizing for > April 10, 1999. Its the first meeting focused of railfans, rail historians and > models devoted solely to the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines West of Pittsburgh & > Erie, Pa. which had a distinct identity after being operated as an independent > railroad from 1871 to 1923. > > A tip on era selection and PRR motive power: This area was one of the first > dieselized by the PRR. While steam ran on the Sandusky branch until the bitter > end in 1956 and 1957, Xenia's coaling and watering facilities were razed in > 1951. > > SHIFTERS: There were about six Fairbanks-Morse H-10-44s and H-12-44s assigned > to switching duties in Xenia and Dayton. The re were H-20-44 road switchers > assigned to Cincinnati which could have found their way to Dayton. The huge > Lima-Hamiltopn or Lima-Hamilton Baldwin 2,500 hp centercab transfer motors > were also found in this area. I have yet to see any shot of early EMD diesel > shifters in Southwest Ohio. > ROAD DIESELS: I've seen shots of just about every first generation class PRR > mainline diesel on the Panhandle's "passenger line" in Greene and Montgomery > counties including a Baldwin Centipede and a Sharknose. and ALCO PAs and PBs. > Remember that in 1950 all diesels wore DGLE. > STEAM: Just about any late steam era power could be found on the Columbus > Division main. K4 4-6-2 Pacific's and T1 4-4-4-4s pulled the varnish, > Mountains, Js and Decapods pulled through freights with the Consolidations > taking the local and work train assignments > > Any Questions? > > Tom V, > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] York, Pa. Update ------Wrong Story ! Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:46:27 -0500 Maybe you should check with "Emons" ! Bill and I are good friends, but the story is tainted! ---------- > From: Jerry > To: Bill Knepper ; PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] York, Pa. Update ------Wrong Story ! > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 6:46 PM > > On 11/25/98 6:06 PM, Bill Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) wrote: > > >The city of "York, PA" did not rescind it's agreement with the Northern > >Central Railroad and the operation of the dinner train! The City of York's > >only agreement is that it wants the train to come to York. "Emons > >Corporation " (of Ma & Pa fame) owners of the track, and lessors of the > >trackage rights to the NCR,(for specific diner train operation), did in > >fact pull back there agreement to allow the NCR to operate on there rails. > >The NCR is in negotiations for some specific runs for the end of year ( New > >Years for one!) > > I'm hearing things second hand, so I can't say which one is > authoritative. But when Bill Lewis told me it was the city that pulled > the plug, I asked if it wasn't really Emons (Ma & Pa, YorkRail) and he > was insistent that Ken Bitten -- owner of the Liberty Limited -- said it > was indeed the city. > > Coincidentally, the city is making many of their one way streets run two > ways again, beginning this week. Perhaps they are attempting to avert > confusion with trains running down the middle of the streets! > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OnTrackHby@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:01:35 EST Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Walther's Crane As many of you know, Walther's recently released a powered crane in HO Scale. I am intriqued with MOW equipment in operating sessions, and like the thought of having a powered crane for that purpose, however am reluctant to invest in this piece. Aside from the 'noise' and poor operation of this particular unit, can anyone tell me of it's origin? I know the CNJ used this prototype, but am unaware if the PRR did at any time, or if it used one similar to it. If you are familiar of such a piece, and references to photos and/or information would be appreciated. >From what I've seen of it so far, it appears to be a piece that could be improved upon with a little effort. But I don't want to put forth the effort if a crane like this didn't traverse the PRR. Thanks in advance! Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:22:53 -0500 Mark, I think I Have another car for your list of Box Cars. Even though it acn be bashed into a good model the X29b,d,e and g cars needto be made. Since these are PRR only cars most manufactures seem to disreguard these important classes. Maybe the avenue to check would be a aftermarket floor and frame. Heck I would even use the frames that Sunshine had for there Uniboby Kits of the early 90s. I have herd that C&BT Shops are doing some of the rebuilds, but if they don't have the overhanging paneled roofs then only the X29b can be done. I also guess that I will have to remove the ladders and grabs from there cars to keep up with the other new cars now being offered in the market today. BTW your posts have caused the start of project #40555555593 a X50 I hope you are happy. Have a nice Thanksgiving Neil -----Original Message----- From: Mark T. Evans To: PRR List Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 11:17 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars >To Greg, Rich and the PRR List: > >Let me first say that there should be no worry of starting a flame war with >me, and my recent freight car comments on the list are not meant to do >likewise with others. I think that robust, healthy debate on subjects like >this serve to (1) inform, (2) >motivate, and (3) present issues that are not discussed anywhere else. To >me, this is what lists like this (and the hobby) are all about. > >Now, some specific comments concerning Greg's post: > >Greg said >>These hurdles can all be overcome if you are willing to except >some compromise in your accuracy. Accuracy is a relative term. And if you >are going to wait until the producer decide to make your railroads >particular car you might have a long wait. The best we can hope for is a >good how-to article and follow closely and check the actual photos of your >project. I think we are looking for realism not necessarily replication in >scale.<< > >What I want in a freight car model is a level of accuracy comparable to an >equivalent state-of-the-art locomotive, caboose, or structure currently >available. I don't understand why I should accept a "double standard" of >accuracy between, say, my locomotive models and my freight car models. If >Athearn or Life-Like get one louver or door hinge out of place on a >locomotive model, they get pilloried in the model press (and lists like >this). While I think that a certain amount of this criticism is uncalled >for, the constant demand for quality and accuracy by the modeling public >has caused manufacturers to raise the bar to the point where the latest >locomotive offerings by Athearn, Like-Like and other firms are equal to or >better that brass at a fraction of the price. > >What I don't understand is why many modelers don't seem to care much about >ensuring that the "level" of accuracy of their freight car models is >comparable to their locos. Life-Like, for one, has proven that fairly >accurate, easily assembled kits are "doable." If we PRR fans are content >to sit back and accept mediocrity in terms of the available, variety and >accuracy of models of PRR equipment, then I guess that we deserve whatever >we get. Remember, the squeaky wheel get the grease. Manufacturers have to >produce some new products now and then to stay in business. Why can't it >be accurate PRR-prototype freight cars? > >It may be that most PRR modelers (and list members) are satisfied by what's >currently available on the market. I really don't know. Certainly the >variety of PRR freight equipment available has never been better, and I'm >well aware of that. One of the reasons I started this thread in the first >place was to see how much interest there is out there in pushing >manufacturers to produce more postwar PRR freight cars. I suggested that >we start a "Most Wanted Freight Car List" to see where the interests (if >any) are. So far, it's too early to tell. > >Some remaining short takes: > >1. Herald King H43 decals - if you like them, fine. But the fonts that >they used sure don't look like the PRR lettering I see on my H43 photos. I >think that I'll wait until something better comes along. And that time may >be closer than you think. > >2. PRR F41 drawings - 1961 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, p.128. Standard GSI >flat (prototype for Walthers/Tichy flat) - 1961 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, >p.130. No need to call Rich Burg and bother him; I can see the >significant differences without his help. To answer your question: >>>Remember the Pennsy owned a chunk of GSC why would they buy some thing >odd?<< The answer is, of course, BECAUSE it was the Pennsy. The F41 is a >unique PRR design, which came first. GSI took the PRR design, >altered/refined it, and sold it to other railroads later. > >3. I just BOUGHT the Bowser F30a and I like it! Now I want an accurate F41 >to go with it. > >4. About the only way to get a relatively accurate X58 from the Athearn >model is to jack it up and run a good model under it. As far as Accurail >goes, well, let's just say I was hoping that Bowser would do the X58 >instead. Accurail's forte seems to be to take a pretty good model, say, >the old Front Range 50-ft. box cars, cut the ladders into the dies, and >basically create something which looks coarser than my old Roco PS-1's of >the 1960's. I'll take Life-Like, Red Caboose, etc. instead. But, hey, if >you like their stuff, great! > >5. Middle Division decals - D&S Hobbies in New Jersey has them too. What >was it that their salesman told me? "Better get them while they last!" >I'm not going to kiss Middle Divison's a**. I'm amazed that people put up >with outfits like this. I'll either wait for Microscale or make them >myself. > >In conclusion, I have a final comment: > >Greg said >>Mark and all, you will find that when you do decide to bring >your models to a local or national show whether it is NMRA, RPM or (SE, ME, >or NE)MRA or just a bunch of friends most of the time a guy will be looking >closely at your accomplishments not your ability to replicate the actual >piece of equipment. We all do this because we like it.<< > >Greg, my modeling friends and I (1) look closely at each other's >accomplishments, (2) gauge our ability to replicate the actual piece of >equipment, AND (3) do this because we like it. These three pursuits are >not mutually exclusive, in spite of what you might read or hear (or feel >yourself). In fact, they have proved very satisfying to yours truly, as >well as my friends. In some quarters, this quest is called "the pursuit of >excellence." We just call it fun. > >Mark T. Evans > >---------- >> From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com >> To: mtevans@jps.net; rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net >> Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU >> Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars >> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:36 PM >> >> Mark and All yuze SPF's, >> >> I don't wish to start a flame here but I think we need to look around >and be >> thankful for what we do have and MODEL what we don't. Don't whine to us >> modelers about what you (and not just Mark here) admittedly can't do, >show us >> what you can do! I have written enough articles (as has my brother) on >> Pennsy's equipment that anyone who wants to expand their fleet has a hell >of a >> good start. And admittedly some of the past work can be improved on. >And I >> have my bench full enough to keep me busy for years to come. It is not >as bad >> as it seems and Mark is wrong in a couple of places too. I will address >Marks >> post line by line. >> >> >> In a message mtevans@jps.net writes: >> >> << Dear Neil and PRR List Members: >> >> A few points: >> >> 1. You'll notice I specifically left out PRR Hoppers in my original >post. >> This is because many classes are quite well represented by Stewart, >Bowser >> and others. If all you run is hopper cars, then your postwar needs are >well >> taken care of. That is, of course, if you like the lousy lettering job >that >> Bowser put on their H43, for instance. Where do I get decals to take >care >> of that?>> >> >> Right, hoppers we don't need no stinking hoppers. The Bowser H-43 decals >can >> be had from Herald King and YES I DO KNOW THAT HERALD KING IS OUT OF >BUSINESS, >> so go buy them while you can. While I was in Chicago I saw at least 3 >shops >> that still had sets so get them now and tuck them away. If you have >problems >> then I would suggest you call Des Plaines and get yours ordered. >> >> << 2. F41 - The Walthers GSI flat is a standard cast steel flat car that >was >> produced for a number of railroads in the 50's and 60's. It is >definitely >> not real close to a F41, as a casual look at the drawings in the Car >> Builder's Cyclopedias and published photos will reveal. However, I'll >> grant you that it is a passable stand-in until something better comes >> along.>> >> >> Let us not forget the GSC flat produced by Tichy as well as the Walthers. >> Mark, the GSC flat and the F-41 are one in the same. Check your drawings >> again and then check the photos and check the drawings in RMJ then check >both >> the Tichy kit and the Walthers kit and then scratch your head then build >the >> model. There was also a 60' 9" inch GSC car built that was the PRR class >F47. >> Remember the Pennsy owned a chunk of GSC why would they buy some thing >odd? >> If you are still uncertain I can give you Rich Burg's address and you >write >> him. >> >> << 3. F31 - >> This car, and a number of other cars on your list, is a >> prewar-built car. Now I realize that they ran well into the Penn >Central >> era, but my comments are confined to cars built new AFTER W.W.II.>> >> >> Mark, you are right it was produced prior to the second world war. Why >> exclude it from your roster and if it was good enough to go into service >on >> Trailer Train it is good enough for me and there were 1500 built by PRR >at >> Shire Oaks. >> >> << 4. X43 - I know that these cars are available. Because of that, I left >> these off of my list on purpose.>> >> >> Wrong, they are not currently available, and if what I saw at Rosemont >was the >> best C&BT Shops can do they might as well sell their tooling to Dennis >> Storzeck! At least he understands that market and his stuff doesn't look >like >> it was tool in the 50's. The kits from C&BT Shops are TOYS! I only hope >that >> when they go belly up that Dennis can buy them cheap enough to retool >them. I >> respect ACCURAIL and laugh at what C&BT is putting out since he took the >big >> step backwards to try to capture ACCURAIL's market. YIKES! >> >> <<5. X48 - Well, there were a grand total of 20 of these on the entire >PRR. >> Not exactly representative of the mainstream PRR freight car roster.>> >> >> Don't let that stop you, buy at least one. It is a unique car and >deserves >> being modeled. >> >> << 6. X44 and X50 - We'll see about the Branchline car. I have a feeling >some >> of the "easy kit-bashes" you alluded to may not be quite that easy if >you >> are trying for a fairly accurate model.>> >> >> The X44 and X50 have different roofs and not to mention different sills. >It >> has been suggested that Branchline is going to produce both roofs but I >cannot >> comment on the sill. We will have to see. So far as the kitbashes go, >well I >> have a promise I will make to all of you, I will not bring my scale rule >when >> I'm invited to see your handy work. I guess it depends on the skill >level in >> your modeling. All I can say to that is practice builds patients and >patients >> creates positive results. >> >> <<7. Neil said >> As for decals if you can get any Middle Division sets >you >> will find that they offer many post war sets.<< Your statement proves >my >> point. "...if you can get any Middle Division sets" doesn't cut it. >This >> is the company that produces sets when it wants to, doesn't answer phone >> calls and doesn't return mail with postage-paid envelopes provided for >the >> reply. Is this the best that we can do? While I acknowledge the quality >of >> the sets that they produce is excellent, they don't make THAT many >postwar >> sets, and I can't get them anyway.> >> >> Again, I bought all the MIDDLE DIVISION Decals I needed in Chicago, IL as >of >> November 1st. Also the vast majority of what Middle Division does is the >more >> modern PRR decals very little of the line is "the Keystone on the Ball" >so >> check your info 1st. Just call or write Des Plaines Hobbies and I know >for a >> fact he does mail order. >> >> <How >> about a PRR 86' hycube? Or a set for the X57? I'm not a big fan of >piecing my >> lettering together letter by letter. We have a long way to go to get a >> representative set of PRR freight car decal sets on the market. >Hopefully >> Microscale will help to correct this in the near future.>> >> >> Again the H-43 is available from Herald King while they last, so get >yours >> while you can. And unless you have not heard the owner of Micro Scale >Greg >> Krassel died last month. Don't get your hopes up but we're working on >it. >> >> <wanted >> list." Athearn's outside post car is just not a very good stand-in. >Decals >> for the X58 would be nice, too.>> >> >> Mark if you replace the ends with a 4-3-1 dreadnaught ends and extend the >> exterior post then you can come up with a very good X58, bit hold on >because >> you might just see ACCURAIL release one as they are nearly the same car >as SOO >> LINE's exterior post car, so... or should I say SOO... ? >> >> Mark T. Evans>> >> >> Gize, >> These hurdles can all be overcome if you are willing to except some >> compromise in your accuracy. Accuracy is a relative term. And if you >are >> going to wait until the producer decide to make your railroads particular >car >> you might have a long wait. The best we can hope for is a good how-to >article >> and follow closely and check the actual photos of your project. I think >we >> are looking for realism not necessarily replication in scale. Mark and >all, >> you will find that when you do decide to bring your models to a local or >> national show whether it is NMRA, RPM or (SE, ME, or NE)MRA or just a >bunch of >> friends most of the time a guy will be looking closely at your >accomplishments >> no your ability to replicate the actual piece of equipment. We all do >this >> because we like it. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is >> BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is >BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:27:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Happy Thanksgiving Fellow listers: I'm trying something new this year: The stuffing recipe from the Keystone 'Pennsy Dining Car', and am going to eat my dinner on my collection of china from the Broadway Ltd. Happy Thanksgiving everybody Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:10:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Freight Cars Why can't we as a group try convince Bowser to at least leave off all the molded on details. They at least try to do PRR cars if only they didn't feel the need to cast on the grabs and other detail. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Freight Cars Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:15:00 -0800 Dear Todd and the PRR List: I am a big advocate of a reasonable number of separate detail parts (ladders, bracket grabs, brake equipment, etc.) on freight car models. It seems that the approach taken by Life-Like on their 50-ft. auto box and single-door box is a good compromise between detail and ease of assembly. I second your vote to have Bowser leave off the molded-on grabs, ladders, etc. in their freight car kits and instead include them as separate parts. However, some modelers (and manufacturers) don't necessarily agree with this approach. I'd be interested in hearing from other list members as to the type of kit that they prefer. Mark T. Evans ---------- > From: CENTGA@aol.com > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Freight Cars > Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 7:10 AM > > Why can't we as a group try convince Bowser to at least leave off all the > molded on details. They at least try to do PRR cars if only they didn't feel > the need to cast on the grabs and other detail. Todd Horton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:01:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR] In a message dated 11/25/98 9:25:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, cil36@link2000.net writes: > You really need to contact US&S, (I think they are called Wabco now) US Switch and Signal and Westinghouse Air Brake Co. (WABCO) are two different corporation. US S&S corporate offices are now located on Babcock Blvd. Pittsburgh, PA 15237 WABCO is still located in East Pittsburgh Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:16:29 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Alco Helix humper Hi folks....Happy Thanksgiving.... A while back someone mentioned that Alco was coming out with a version of their " Helix Humper " for the bowser T-1.... Anyone know about it or where i can get info? Til Later Hank M. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:50:35 EST Subject: [PRR] US&S ADDRESS The correct address is Union Switch & Signal 1000 Technology Drive Pittsburgh, PA 15237 (412) 688-2400 The street I previously posted was incorrect. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRR Freight Car Models Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:35:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1941.969A0F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I vote for seperate datail parts rather than molded on. I believe = Intermountain, Red Caboose and Life Like P2K are currently on the = leading edge and from my selfish point of view the others should be = running to catch up.=20 Al ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1941.969A0F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I vote for seperate datail parts = rather than=20 molded on. I believe Intermountain, Red Caboose and Life Like P2K are = currently=20 on the leading edge and from my selfish point of view the others should = be=20 running to catch up.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1941.969A0F00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Scale Walther's Crane Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:03:27 -0500 There's a photo of a PRR American crane in one of the Classic Freight Cars, the Series, Maintance of Way books. It's actually in the same scheme as the Walthers one. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > OnTrackHby@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 1998 12:02 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Walther's Crane > > > As many of you know, Walther's recently released a powered crane > in HO Scale. > I am intriqued with MOW equipment in operating sessions, and like > the thought > of having a powered crane for that purpose, however am reluctant > to invest in > this piece. Aside from the 'noise' and poor operation of this particular > unit, can anyone tell me of it's origin? I know the CNJ used > this prototype, > but am unaware if the PRR did at any time, or if it used one > similar to it. > If you are familiar of such a piece, and references to photos and/or > information would be appreciated. > > >From what I've seen of it so far, it appears to be a piece that could be > improved upon with a little effort. But I don't want to put > forth the effort > if a crane like this didn't traverse the PRR. > > Thanks in advance! > > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:29:48 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Helix humper --------------DE82A3416512094C6C69BF9B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All and Hank: Check out the January 1999 Issue of Model Railroader. On page 63 is a photo of a "Quick Kit" installed on a T1. cos bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hi folks....Happy Thanksgiving.... > > A while back someone mentioned that Alco was coming out with a version > of their " Helix Humper " for the bowser T-1.... > Anyone know about it or where i can get info? > > Til Later > Hank M. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------DE82A3416512094C6C69BF9B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All and Hank:

Check out the January 1999 Issue of Model Railroader.  On page 63 is a photo of a "Quick Kit" installed on a T1.

cos
 

bubbles@visi.net wrote:

  Hi folks....Happy Thanksgiving....

   A while back someone mentioned that Alco was coming out with a version
   of their " Helix Humper " for the bowser T-1....
   Anyone know about it or where i can get info?

                                              Til Later
                                              Hank M.

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  --------------DE82A3416512094C6C69BF9B-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:25:13 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Helix humper thanks hi again... Thanks to all who gave their info on the Helix Humper.. Til Later Hank M. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:25:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Freight Cars Mark, I'd have to vote for more separate detail parts as well. Not that I'm not glad to see some of what Bowser has put out...the running boards, stirrups and trucks on the round roof boxcars are pretty decent, and the hoppers are not bad, either. And Pennsy cabooses(er, cabin cars) were long overdue. But if they want to do separate parts on future productions, great. I really can't figure out C&BT shops. I had picked up a handful of their earlier boxcars, with separate ladders and etc. Some of the parts were somewhat crude, but not a bad kit. Next time I'm looking at some of their cars they look like ersatz Accurail, molded grab and ladders and all that crap. Might as well buy Athearn or MDC, they cost less and track better, and give me my money's worth. But I don't want to sound like too much of a whiner.I go back to the days when Varney's round roof box car was a welcome model, and I was right happy to get one.(When you're 12 or 13, $1.89 was real money, circa 1959). I also still have a soft spot for wooden kits, so perhaps I'm not the real nitpicker type. But as a rule, the more detail the better, since now I've got the policy of selling two old cars for every new one I buy or scratch. P2K kits, especially are somewhere in the beginner stage of difficulty, and I much prefer Red Caboose or Intermountain, but they ain't hard either. Tichy moves it up a notch, and then there's a jump to Westerfield types. But they all have their place, even if a few of them are going to the back burner until semi- retirement sets in. Good luck with your survey. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:49:30 -0500 From: steve long Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR] I seem to recall that Wabco had control of US&S at one time and sold it to American Standard. Westinghouse has sold many of it's different divisions this last 10 years. Westinghouse motor control and electrical distribution was sold to Cutler-Hammer, not a bad move, they have worked together for many years. It's line of crane and mill electrical brakes was sold to Magnetek, Gemco has it now. Not much is left of the Westinghouse everybody knew. A lot of different plants were sold to ABB. This includes the Giant Westinghouse plant at Muncie, In., the same one that owns the famous Schnaubel two section flat car. Overland has sold a HO scale model in both the Westinghouse and ABB schemes just recently. It was shown in one of the pennsy equipment books. Wabco still exist in name but I keep thinking another company is working in the background and I really don't believe it's the Westinghouse group anymore. Can anybody shed any light on Wabco? Steve Long SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/25/98 9:25:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cil36@link2000.net writes: > > > You really need to contact US&S, (I think they are called Wabco now) > US Switch and Signal and Westinghouse Air Brake Co. (WABCO) are two different > corporation. > > US S&S corporate offices are now located on > Babcock Blvd. > Pittsburgh, PA 15237 > > WABCO is still located in East Pittsburgh > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:30:57 EST Subject: [PRR] Freight Cars Ok I guess I'll play devil's advocate here. I don't think that all manufactures will or should go to seperate detail parts. I think Athearn and MDC kits with there modeled on detail have their place. Most modeleres of my generation (I'm 25) got there start in scale Model Railroading with these kits. Remember when you were 10 or 12 and try to imagine assembling a Sunshine fit or even a Red caboose kit. The cars with molded on details made scale rairoading much easier at the younger age. Heck when I built my first flat sided Tichy kit at 16 or 17 I was scared. Paying 15 dollars for the kit at the time was a lot for a teenager working for 2 bucks an hour. All things being considered as my modeleing is in the more advanced stage now I can't remeber the last time I bought an Athearn kit for my Home layout. I have purchased some Accurail kits for the club I belong to but that is different since club cars have a tendency to be handled more and I dont want to find kits missing grabs on the layout. Also for the want list of PRR freight Cars I'll ad my vote for the G31 and X29d. Although I thought someone (Sunshine?) made a X29d a few years back. I could be mistaken. Brian J Carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Locomotive Survery Results Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 21:14:47 -0500 From: Jerry The following are the results of the desired locomotives survey. There were 57 respondents. There may be some duplication due to slightly different terminology used in the responses and my ignorance in some aspects resulting in not properly combining them. SUMMARY: Diesel: Erie-builts, followed closely by Centipedes, then C-Liners Electric: MP54, followed by P5 boxcab, then E44 Steam: Tie between J1 and Q2 DIESELS: Baldwin VO660 3 Baldwin VO1000 2 Baldwin S10 1 Baldwin S12 2 Baldwin BS10 1 Baldwin DR 4-4-15 (original sharks) 3 Baldwin DR 12-8-30 BP60 Centipedes 9 Baldwin DS 4-4-10 2 Baldwin RT 624 1 Baldwin DS 4-4-6 1 Baldwin DS 4-4-7.5 1 Baldwin 6-6-20 2 FM CFA-167-4 (FF16) 7 <-Miracle Castings working on C Liners FM H-16-44 1 FM H-20-44 (FS20) 6 FM Erie-builts (passenger) 11 Alco RS27 (AFS24) 3 Alco C-425 high short hood 1 Alco C630 1 Alco C636 2 Alco T6 4 Alco DL109 1 Alco DL600 3 EMD FP7 1 EMD GP9 phase I 2 EMD GP9 phase II 2 EMD GP9B 1 EMD SD40 2 <-Kato rerun reported EMD F7 1 <-P2K quality Lima T-2500 1 Lima transfer BS24m 5 <-is this the same as above? ELECTRICS: B1 4 NH EF-1 1 NH EF-4 1 NH EP-5 1 E33 1 E44 7 L6 1 MP54 10 <-Train Stuff/Hobbytown rumored to be working on O1c 2 P5a 6 P5 box 9 P5 mod 3 DD1 2 FF1 1 FF2 1 GG1 4 <-citing P2K quality Pioneer MU Silverliners 1 STEAM: B6 3 B8 1 C1 0-8-0 2 D16sb 1 E3 2 C51s 1 G54sa 1 H6sb 1 H9 5 <-doesn't Bowser count? <-Bachmann suggested H10 6 I1s 1 I1sa 1 J1 7 K2 2 K3 2 Bachmann modernized K4 3 Streamlined K4 4 K5 3 L1 1 L1s 1 M1 1 <-doesn't Bowser count? N1s 1 N2 1 N2sa 1 Q2 7 S1 1 S2 1 HC1 1 Resin boilder conversion for Bachmann consolidation 2 E3/E5/E7 boiler to fit the E6 frame 1 OTHER: N8 cabin stopped counting! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:19:02 -0500 (EST) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: [PRR] History Channel - Trains Just a heads up for anyone staying up late tonight (Hopefully nobody has to go to work tomorrow!): On the History Channel -- Thursday, November 26 11:00 PM - Midnight Trains Unlimited Toy Trains. Model railroads first appeared in the mid-1800s--steam-powered miniature trains fueled by alcohol and water. But Joshua Lionel Cowen changed childhood forever when he made his first electric train at the turn of the century when he was 23. Track the evolution of model railroads, from cast iron push-toys to today's digital masterpieces. [TV G] Regards, Ed -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, Systems Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Computer Systems Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6785 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:02:32 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Helix Humpers and Duplexs,Something to Think About Hi All... First off...since i asked the Helix Humper question earlier today.... Has anyone here on the list or someone you know....tried this new kit for the T-1. How does it do....The only experiance i have with them is the one i installed for Joe Zappa's K-5 pilot model. Now on to something more interesting...LOL This concerns Pennsy's duplex engines....some things i've been wondering about that there may not be a answer to. First off...During WWII new designs were suppose to be taboo...but the Q-1 was a untried design built during the war...Now i could see the 6110-6111 T-1's being built as these were a prewar design...but the Q-1? How did they get permission to do so? I understand the reason to build it... an experiment...hence the changes on the Q-2's. Now since i've brought the Q-2's up...why 69" drivers when the M-1 classes had 72" standard drivers ...or even 70" drivers which were used on J-1 classes ? With the standardization idea that was supposed to be so well ingrained on the Pennsy,you would think they would use a existing size. So why the 69" size? Also if they had,had a 72" driver perhaps they could have been used as a dual service engine...maybe not on the top name trains...but on the heavier lesser known ones to help eliminate helpers on Horseshoe Curve. I think i've seen a picture of one on the curve. Now on to a couple of other duplex things.... It has been well stated that the T-1 engines were very slippery... But you will note that S-1 6100 was a very similar design...same number of drivers but much more heavier... and you don't hear about wheel slippage as much concerning that engine. Were poppets that potent? You would think that Pennsy would have remembered and taken adhesion weight into concideration when they desiged the T-1. Now...why was it that you had the T-1 with all its slipping problems and poppet costs running into the mid 1950's...but the Q-2 (which did have some slipping,but not so bad) which had regular valves and better horsepower having most of that class being retired by 1950? And one other thing....Have you all noticed that on PRR passenger duplex engines,they have a full diaphram between the engine and tender but on the freight duplexs they did not? (ok,ok...the Q-1 did have a semi diaphram,but remember it was a experimental..also the T-1's were known to be very dirty) Was PRR's thinking such that having a diaphram on freight engines an extravagance? (ok..i do realize the Q-2 was a "war baby") This is all something to think about and ponder...We all might never know why any of this was done. Have a Happy Holiday Til Later Hank Mummert P.S. For my money...I like the Q-2 best of the duplexes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars - F41 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:05:56 -0500 Hi all, Sure, wait till I finally build the F41 in my closet and then tell me that they're wrong! Unfortunately it's close enough that no manufacturer will probably do a correct one :( One more problem with the Walthers one is that the trucks are spaced about 1 foot too close together. If you want to check out the PRR class diagram for the F41 and also a photo or two that illustrate some of the differences between the F41 and the GSC car point your browser to http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=F41 If you get an error message, just hit reload a few times. The Railfan.net server has a maximum for the number of cgi applications that can be run at once and occasionally hits it. (They're working on fixing the problem I hope :) Rob > > > >2. PRR F41 drawings - 1961 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, p.128. Standard GSI > >flat (prototype for Walthers/Tichy flat) - 1961 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, > >p.130. No need to call Rich Burg and bother him; I can see the > >significant differences without his help. To answer your question: > >>>Remember the Pennsy owned a chunk of GSC why would they buy some thing > >odd?<< The answer is, of course, BECAUSE it was the Pennsy. > The F41 is a > >unique PRR design, which came first. GSI took the PRR design, > >altered/refined it, and sold it to other railroads later. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OnTrackHby@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:00:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Helix humper In a message dated 98-11-26 12:37:52 EST, you write: << A while back someone mentioned that Alco was coming out with a version of their " Helix Humper " for the bowser T-1.... Anyone know about it or where i can get info? >> A friend of mine mentioned to me just tonight that there was an ad for it in one of the mag's, but I couldn't find it. However, you may want to contact Alco Products directly at 312 Hunter Forge Road Macungie, Pa. 18062 610-845-7300 I understand that conversion kit is available Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix Humpers and Duplexs,Something to Think About Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:09:15 -0500 Hank, I put one of the Helix units in a "Penn Line" L1 which did not run very well. Well it is the answer to operation ....... All of my Bowser engines will get "Helix" units as I rebuild them. The operation is smooth and quiet, and still pulls like the Bowser, only smother. Plus flywheels to boot. Bill ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Helix Humpers and Duplexs,Something to Think About > Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 10:02 PM > > > Hi All... > > First off...since i asked the Helix Humper question earlier today.... > Has anyone here on the list or someone you know....tried this > new kit for the T-1. How does it do....The only experiance i have with > them is the one i installed for Joe Zappa's K-5 pilot model. > > Now on to something more interesting...LOL > > This concerns Pennsy's duplex engines....some things i've been wondering > about that there may not be a answer to. First off...During WWII new > designs were suppose to be taboo...but the Q-1 was a untried design > built during the war...Now i could see the 6110-6111 T-1's being > built as these were a prewar design...but the Q-1? How did they > get permission to do so? I understand the reason to build it... > an experiment...hence the changes on the Q-2's. Now since i've brought > the Q-2's up...why 69" drivers when the M-1 classes had 72" standard > drivers ...or even 70" drivers which were used on J-1 classes ? > With the standardization idea that was supposed to be so well ingrained > on the Pennsy,you would think they would use a existing size. > So why the 69" size? Also if they had,had a 72" driver perhaps > they could have been used as a dual service engine...maybe not on > the top name trains...but on the heavier lesser known ones to help > eliminate helpers on Horseshoe Curve. I think i've seen a picture > of one on the curve. > > Now on to a couple of other duplex things.... > It has been well stated that the T-1 engines were very slippery... > But you will note that S-1 6100 was a very similar design...same number of > drivers but much more heavier... > and you don't hear about wheel slippage as much concerning that engine. > Were poppets that potent? You would think that Pennsy would have remembered > and taken adhesion weight into concideration when they desiged the T-1. > Now...why was it that you had the T-1 with all its slipping problems > and poppet costs running into the mid 1950's...but the Q-2 (which did > have some slipping,but not so bad) which had regular valves and > better horsepower having most of that class being retired by 1950? > And one other thing....Have you all noticed that on PRR passenger > duplex engines,they have a full diaphram between the engine and tender > but on the freight duplexs they did not? (ok,ok...the Q-1 did have a > semi diaphram,but remember it was a experimental..also the T-1's > were known to be very dirty) > Was PRR's thinking such that having a diaphram on freight engines > an extravagance? (ok..i do realize the Q-2 was a "war baby") > > This is all something to think about and ponder...We all might never > know why any of this was done. > > Have a Happy Holiday > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > P.S. For my money...I like the Q-2 best of the duplexes. > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:19:05 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: [PRR] Wallpaper Happy Thanksgiving. Have just re-scanned some photographs in high resolution. Background wallpaper size and in different color schemes. Please tell me what you think. http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/wallpaper.html -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:04:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix Humpers and Duplexs,Something to Think About In a message dated 11/26/98 10:25:17 PM Central Standard Time, boxcar46@nfdc.net writes: << I put one of the Helix units in a "Penn Line" L1 which did not run very well. Well it is the answer to operation ....... All of my Bowser engines will get "Helix" units as I rebuild them. The operation is smooth and quiet, and still pulls like the Bowser, only smother. Plus flywheels to boot. >> And it is friendlier to DCC systems and you can use smaller decoders. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Freight Cars Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:26:47 -0800 Dear Neil and the PRR List: I think that the X29 rebuilds are an excellent choice for a new model. According to the D&S Hobbies Railroad Telegraph web page http://www.onerrave.com/ C&BT Shops showed pilot models of both the X29b and X29d at the Chicago Model and Hobby Show. We can only hope that they will do a better job that they have on some of their other kits. Good luck with the X50. What are you using as a starting point? Mark T. Evans ---------- > From: N Campbell > To: mtevans@jps.net; PRR List > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars > Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 5:22 AM > > Mark, > > I think I Have another car for your list of Box Cars. Even though it acn be > bashed into a good model the X29b,d,e and g cars needto be made. > Since these are PRR only cars most manufactures seem to disreguard these > important classes. > Maybe the avenue to check would be a aftermarket floor and frame. Heck I > would even use the frames that Sunshine had for there Uniboby Kits of the > early 90s. > I have herd that C&BT Shops are doing some of the rebuilds, but if they > don't have the overhanging paneled roofs then only the X29b can be done. I > also guess that I will have to remove the ladders and grabs from there cars > to keep up with the other new cars now being offered in the market today. > BTW your posts have caused the start of project #40555555593 a X50 I hope > you are happy. > > Have a nice Thanksgiving > Neil > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark T. Evans > To: PRR List > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 11:17 PM > Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars > > > >To Greg, Rich and the PRR List: > > > >Let me first say that there should be no worry of starting a flame war with > >me, and my recent freight car comments on the list are not meant to do > >likewise with others. I think that robust, healthy debate on subjects like > >this serve to (1) inform, (2) > >motivate, and (3) present issues that are not discussed anywhere else. To > >me, this is what lists like this (and the hobby) are all about. > > > >Now, some specific comments concerning Greg's post: > > > >Greg said >>These hurdles can all be overcome if you are willing to except > >some compromise in your accuracy. Accuracy is a relative term. And if you > >are going to wait until the producer decide to make your railroads > >particular car you might have a long wait. The best we can hope for is a > >good how-to article and follow closely and check the actual photos of your > >project. I think we are looking for realism not necessarily replication in > >scale.<< > > > >What I want in a freight car model is a level of accuracy comparable to an > >equivalent state-of-the-art locomotive, caboose, or structure currently > >available. I don't understand why I should accept a "double standard" of > >accuracy between, say, my locomotive models and my freight car models. If > >Athearn or Life-Like get one louver or door hinge out of place on a > >locomotive model, they get pilloried in the model press (and lists like > >this). While I think that a certain amount of this criticism is uncalled > >for, the constant demand for quality and accuracy by the modeling public > >has caused manufacturers to raise the bar to the point where the latest > >locomotive offerings by Athearn, Like-Like and other firms are equal to or > >better that brass at a fraction of the price. > > > >What I don't understand is why many modelers don't seem to care much about > >ensuring that the "level" of accuracy of their freight car models is > >comparable to their locos. Life-Like, for one, has proven that fairly > >accurate, easily assembled kits are "doable." If we PRR fans are content > >to sit back and accept mediocrity in terms of the available, variety and > >accuracy of models of PRR equipment, then I guess that we deserve whatever > >we get. Remember, the squeaky wheel get the grease. Manufacturers have to > >produce some new products now and then to stay in business. Why can't it > >be accurate PRR-prototype freight cars? > > > >It may be that most PRR modelers (and list members) are satisfied by what's > >currently available on the market. I really don't know. Certainly the > >variety of PRR freight equipment available has never been better, and I'm > >well aware of that. One of the reasons I started this thread in the first > >place was to see how much interest there is out there in pushing > >manufacturers to produce more postwar PRR freight cars. I suggested that > >we start a "Most Wanted Freight Car List" to see where the interests (if > >any) are. So far, it's too early to tell. > > > >Some remaining short takes: > > > >1. Herald King H43 decals - if you like them, fine. But the fonts that > >they used sure don't look like the PRR lettering I see on my H43 photos. I > >think that I'll wait until something better comes along. And that time may > >be closer than you think. > > > >2. PRR F41 drawings - 1961 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, p.128. Standard GSI > >flat (prototype for Walthers/Tichy flat) - 1961 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, > >p.130. No need to call Rich Burg and bother him; I can see the > >significant differences without his help. To answer your question: > >>>Remember the Pennsy owned a chunk of GSC why would they buy some thing > >odd?<< The answer is, of course, BECAUSE it was the Pennsy. The F41 is a > >unique PRR design, which came first. GSI took the PRR design, > >altered/refined it, and sold it to other railroads later. > > > >3. I just BOUGHT the Bowser F30a and I like it! Now I want an accurate F41 > >to go with it. > > > >4. About the only way to get a relatively accurate X58 from the Athearn > >model is to jack it up and run a good model under it. As far as Accurail > >goes, well, let's just say I was hoping that Bowser would do the X58 > >instead. Accurail's forte seems to be to take a pretty good model, say, > >the old Front Range 50-ft. box cars, cut the ladders into the dies, and > >basically create something which looks coarser than my old Roco PS-1's of > >the 1960's. I'll take Life-Like, Red Caboose, etc. instead. But, hey, if > >you like their stuff, great! > > > >5. Middle Division decals - D&S Hobbies in New Jersey has them too. What > >was it that their salesman told me? "Better get them while they last!" > >I'm not going to kiss Middle Divison's a**. I'm amazed that people put up > >with outfits like this. I'll either wait for Microscale or make them > >myself. > > > >In conclusion, I have a final comment: > > > >Greg said >>Mark and all, you will find that when you do decide to bring > >your models to a local or national show whether it is NMRA, RPM or (SE, ME, > >or NE)MRA or just a bunch of friends most of the time a guy will be looking > >closely at your accomplishments not your ability to replicate the actual > >piece of equipment. We all do this because we like it.<< > > > >Greg, my modeling friends and I (1) look closely at each other's > >accomplishments, (2) gauge our ability to replicate the actual piece of > >equipment, AND (3) do this because we like it. These three pursuits are > >not mutually exclusive, in spite of what you might read or hear (or feel > >yourself). In fact, they have proved very satisfying to yours truly, as > >well as my friends. In some quarters, this quest is called "the pursuit of > >excellence." We just call it fun. > > > >Mark T. Evans > > > >---------- > >> From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com > >> To: mtevans@jps.net; rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net > >> Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU > >> Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Freight Cars > >> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:36 PM > >> > >> Mark and All yuze SPF's, > >> > >> I don't wish to start a flame here but I think we need to look around > >and be > >> thankful for what we do have and MODEL what we don't. Don't whine to us > >> modelers about what you (and not just Mark here) admittedly can't do, > >show us > >> what you can do! I have written enough articles (as has my brother) on > >> Pennsy's equipment that anyone who wants to expand their fleet has a hell > >of a > >> good start. And admittedly some of the past work can be improved on. > >And I > >> have my bench full enough to keep me busy for years to come. It is not > >as bad > >> as it seems and Mark is wrong in a couple of places too. I will address > >Marks > >> post line by line. > >> > >> > >> In a message mtevans@jps.net writes: > >> > >> << Dear Neil and PRR List Members: > >> > >> A few points: > >> > >> 1. You'll notice I specifically left out PRR Hoppers in my original > >post. > >> This is because many classes are quite well represented by Stewart, > >Bowser > >> and others. If all you run is hopper cars, then your postwar needs are > >well > >> taken care of. That is, of course, if you like the lousy lettering job > >that > >> Bowser put on their H43, for instance. Where do I get decals to take > >care > >> of that?>> > >> > >> Right, hoppers we don't need no stinking hoppers. The Bowser H-43 decals > >can > >> be had from Herald King and YES I DO KNOW THAT HERALD KING IS OUT OF > >BUSINESS, > >> so go buy them while you can. While I was in Chicago I saw at least 3 > >shops > >> that still had sets so get them now and tuck them away. If you have > >problems > >> then I would suggest you call Des Plaines and get yours ordered. > >> > >> << 2. F41 - The Walthers GSI flat is a standard cast steel flat car that > >was > >> produced for a number of railroads in the 50's and 60's. It is > >definitely > >> not real close to a F41, as a casual look at the drawings in the Car > >> Builder's Cyclopedias and published photos will reveal. However, I'll > >> grant you that it is a passable stand-in until something better comes > >> along.>> > >> > >> Let us not forget the GSC flat produced by Tichy as well as the Walthers. > >> Mark, the GSC flat and the F-41 are one in the same. Check your drawings > >> again and then check the photos and check the drawings in RMJ then check > >both > >> the Tichy kit and the Walthers kit and then scratch your head then build > >the > >> model. There was also a 60' 9" inch GSC car built that was the PRR class > >F47. > >> Remember the Pennsy owned a chunk of GSC why would they buy some thing > >odd? > >> If you are still uncertain I can give you Rich Burg's address and you > >write > >> him. > >> > >> << 3. F31 - > >> This car, and a number of other cars on your list, is a > >> prewar-built car. Now I realize that they ran well into the Penn > >Central > >> era, but my comments are confined to cars built new AFTER W.W.II.>> > >> > >> Mark, you are right it was produced prior to the second world war. Why > >> exclude it from your roster and if it was good enough to go into service > >on > >> Trailer Train it is good enough for me and there were 1500 built by PRR > >at > >> Shire Oaks. > >> > >> << 4. X43 - I know that these cars are available. Because of that, I left > >> these off of my list on purpose.>> > >> > >> Wrong, they are not currently available, and if what I saw at Rosemont > >was the > >> best C&BT Shops can do they might as well sell their tooling to Dennis > >> Storzeck! At least he understands that market and his stuff doesn't look > >like > >> it was tool in the 50's. The kits from C&BT Shops are TOYS! I only hope > >that > >> when they go belly up that Dennis can buy them cheap enough to retool > >them. I > >> respect ACCURAIL and laugh at what C&BT is putting out since he took the > >big > >> step backwards to try to capture ACCURAIL's market. YIKES! > >> > >> <<5. X48 - Well, there were a grand total of 20 of these on the entire > >PRR. > >> Not exactly representative of the mainstream PRR freight car roster.>> > >> > >> Don't let that stop you, buy at least one. It is a unique car and > >deserves > >> being modeled. > >> > >> << 6. X44 and X50 - We'll see about the Branchline car. I have a feeling > >some > >> of the "easy kit-bashes" you alluded to may not be quite that easy if > >you > >> are trying for a fairly accurate model.>> > >> > >> The X44 and X50 have different roofs and not to mention different sills. > >It > >> has been suggested that Branchline is going to produce both roofs but I > >cannot > >> comment on the sill. We will have to see. So far as the kitbashes go, > >well I > >> have a promise I will make to all of you, I will not bring my scale rule > >when > >> I'm invited to see your handy work. I guess it depends on the skill > >level in > >> your modeling. All I can say to that is practice builds patients and > >patients > >> creates positive results. > >> > >> <<7. Neil said >> As for decals if you can get any Middle Division sets > >you > >> will find that they offer many post war sets.<< Your statement proves > >my > >> point. "...if you can get any Middle Division sets" doesn't cut it. > >This > >> is the company that produces sets when it wants to, doesn't answer phone > >> calls and doesn't return mail with postage-paid envelopes provided for > >the > >> reply. Is this the best that we can do? While I acknowledge the quality > >of > >> the sets that they produce is excellent, they don't make THAT many > >postwar > >> sets, and I can't get them anyway.> > >> > >> Again, I bought all the MIDDLE DIVISION Decals I needed in Chicago, IL as > >of > >> November 1st. Also the vast majority of what Middle Division does is the > >more > >> modern PRR decals very little of the line is "the Keystone on the Ball" > >so > >> check your info 1st. Just call or write Des Plaines Hobbies and I know > >for a > >> fact he does mail order. > >> > >> < >How > >> about a PRR 86' hycube? Or a set for the X57? I'm not a big fan of > >piecing my > >> lettering together letter by letter. We have a long way to go to get a > >> representative set of PRR freight car decal sets on the market. > >Hopefully > >> Microscale will help to correct this in the near future.>> > >> > >> Again the H-43 is available from Herald King while they last, so get > >yours > >> while you can. And unless you have not heard the owner of Micro Scale > >Greg > >> Krassel died last month. Don't get your hopes up but we're working on > >it. > >> > >> < >wanted > >> list." Athearn's outside post car is just not a very good stand-in. > >Decals > >> for the X58 would be nice, too.>> > >> > >> Mark if you replace the ends with a 4-3-1 dreadnaught ends and extend the > >> exterior post then you can come up with a very good X58, bit hold on > >because > >> you might just see ACCURAIL release one as they are nearly the same car > >as SOO > >> LINE's exterior post car, so... or should I say SOO... ? > >> > >> Mark T. Evans>> > >> > >> Gize, > >> These hurdles can all be overcome if you are willing to except some > >> compromise in your accuracy. Accuracy is a relative term. And if you > >are > >> going to wait until the producer decide to make your railroads particular > >car > >> you might have a long wait. The best we can hope for is a good how-to > >article > >> and follow closely and check the actual photos of your project. I think > >we > >> are looking for realism not necessarily replication in scale. Mark and > >all, > >> you will find that when you do decide to bring your models to a local or > >> national show whether it is NMRA, RPM or (SE, ME, or NE)MRA or just a > >bunch of > >> friends most of the time a guy will be looking closely at your > >accomplishments > >> no your ability to replicate the actual piece of equipment. We all do > >this > >> because we like it. > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > >> BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >> > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > >BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:06:11 -0600 Subject: [PRR] N scale Cab Signal box From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I am trying to find out how anyone modeling in N scale has done their cab signal boxes for Conrail or Pennsylvania? Is there a commercial part available for this that is not in the Walthers catalog? Or do you all just fabricate them? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks for any help. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:18:27 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive Survery Results On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > EMD F7 1 <-P2K quality Ya mean like the highliners/athearn generis F7? or maybe the intermountain? geez, no satisfying some people.:-) > Baldwin RT 624 1 > Lima T-2500 1 > Lima transfer BS24m 5 <-is this the same as above? BS24m was an RT-624. LS25 was a Lima. The last was someone's imagination, I guess. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:11:06 -0600 From: bkroger@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] smokebox/firebox question Right after sending the smokebox/firebox question I stopped getting PRR messages. It wasn't THAT bad of a question, was it? Also, Jerry's Pennsy Page isn't coming up. Has the URL changed or....? Regards, Ben Kroger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] smokebox/firebox question Date: Fri, 27 Nov 98 08:36:53 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/27/98 12:11 AM, bkroger@earthlink.net (bkroger@earthlink.net) wrote: >Right after sending the smokebox/firebox question I stopped getting PRR >messages. It wasn't THAT bad of a question, was it? Also, Jerry's Pennsy >Page isn't coming up. Has the URL changed or....? The domain "earthlink.net" was bouncing ALL messages to it for over two weeks. So I axed the subscribers from it (5 or 6). Figured the ISP had gone by the wayside. Sounds like its running again. Sorry for the inconvenience. URL remains the same and working fine: http://kc.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Helix humper Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:19:00 -0500 Your prayers are answered ! The Helix drive system is being sold for the T-1 4-4-4-4 with dual motors and flywheels. See Model Railroader Mag page 63 ( Jan 1999 issue) No write up, just a picture. Bill ---------- > From: OnTrackHby@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Helix humper > Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 11:00 PM > > In a message dated 98-11-26 12:37:52 EST, you write: > > << A while back someone mentioned that Alco was coming out with a version > of their " Helix Humper " for the bowser T-1.... > Anyone know about it or where i can get info? >> > > A friend of mine mentioned to me just tonight that there was an ad for it in > one of the mag's, but I couldn't find it. However, you may want to contact > Alco Products directly at > 312 Hunter Forge Road > Macungie, Pa. 18062 > 610-845-7300 > > I understand that conversion kit is available > > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:21:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive Survery Results (If this sounds ranty, I'm sorry, it's not meant to be) On Sat, 28 Nov 1998 FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/27/98 1:44:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: > > << On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > > > > EMD F7 1 <-P2K quality > > Ya mean like the highliners/athearn generis F7? or maybe the > intermountain? geez, no satisfying some people.:-) > > I don't know of anyone who has seen these yet, other than an ad or two. so I > suppose we'll have to wait. Yeah, well, my point was, at least wait and see what's coming before you go begging for other people to put their money into a project which probably wouldn't make them much return by the time it came to fruition. There's enough things we don't have yet, that I at least would rather see variety than replication of something which is "good enough". Mind you, my "good enough" is higher than some, and less than others. The Atlas RS-1 and GP7 are "good enough", the RSD-12 is not (too short, wrong trucks). But I'd love an Alco RSD-7 or RSD-15 model (I can change one to another with some hackery) to model those groups of PRR units, before we get yet another F unit, for instance. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:03:55 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Helix Humpers ,Orangeville and New York County Hi folks... I trust everyone had a filling Thanksgiving.... I want to take this opportunity to thank every one who were able to help me with the Orangeville (Baltimore) enginehouse info and stuff on the Helix Humper T-1 stuff.... Now a while back one of the guys on the list asked for info on the car " New York County. I have been able to find out that this car was one of the cars used on the better name trains (Broadway, Liberty, St. Louis...etc. Limiteds) These cars were built by Pullman in 1938. These cars were PRR class PS13 cars. They were built in two lots. One lot was Pullman lot no. 6541 Floor plan 4071-A weight was 119,700 Pds. Pullman truck 43-R, 84'6" coupled lenth. The other lot was Pullman lot no. 6572 Floor plan 4071-B These cars were named.. 8000-Allegheny County, 8005-Lancaster County, 8006-New York County and 8007-Philadelphia County weight was 123,800 Pds. Pullman truck 41-HR, 84'6" coupled lenth. These cars were named... 8001-Cambria County, 8002-Hamilton County, 8003-Jefferson County and 8004-Lake County While trying to find info on these cars...i had thought that i had,had a old Railroad Model Craftsmen article on them...but did...The article i did have was on some PRR class PS18 cars in the " City of "series such as "City of York", City of Lancaster" etc. these cars were also built in 1938...four of these cars were rebuilt into dormitory cars. But most were sold to N de M in the 1963-68 timeframe along with the observation cars that had been used on the 1938 Broadway and Liberty Limited's.( The older round ended " View " cars.) It would make sense thought that some of the " County " series cars could also have been sold to N de M...at this same time.Thats my best guess. If i find out anything else i'll let you all know. Til Later Hank M. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:08:49 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] goofs Hi all... Oops....please pardon some of the goofs in my last e-mail If anyone really needs the info bad...just send me a e-mail. Thanks... Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:11:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive Survery Results In a message dated 11/27/98 1:44:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > EMD F7 1 <-P2K quality Ya mean like the highliners/athearn generis F7? or maybe the intermountain? geez, no satisfying some people.:-) I don't know of anyone who has seen these yet, other than an ad or two. so I suppose we'll have to wait. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:56:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Freight Cars Mark and All As I posted before and I will post again, if you are waiting for a Scale Model for the X-29b and X-29D then you will be sadly disappointed. Greg Martin In a message dated 11/26/98 11:19:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, mtevans@jps.net writes: << ear Neil and the PRR List: I think that the X29 rebuilds are an excellent choice for a new model. According to the D&S Hobbies Railroad Telegraph web page http://www.onerrave.com/ C&BT Shops showed pilot models of both the X29b and X29d at the Chicago Model and Hobby Show. We can only hope that they will do a better job that they have on some of their other kits. Good luck with the X50. What are you using as a starting point? Mark T. Evans ---------- >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:51:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive Survery Results From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) The Athearn display at Rosemont had samples of the Athearn/Highliner F's. If they are typical of production, the only complaint will be the somewhat substantial predicted price. These are not your father's 1955 ninety-eight cent Globe F-units. I heard a new drive is in the works for them, too. Pat Egan (no web access) On Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:11:15 EST FarbLand@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 11/27/98 1:44:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, >shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: > ><< On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > > > > EMD F7 1 <-P2K quality > > Ya mean like the highliners/athearn generis F7? or maybe the > intermountain? geez, no satisfying some people.:-) > >I don't know of anyone who has seen these yet, other than an ad or >two. so I >suppose we'll have to wait. >Brian C > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is >BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HGordon552@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 05:16:45 EST Subject: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs Interested in more information on water scoops and water troughs. First question, were water troughs put on top of the ties, or, were they set- in. How deep was the pan and how long? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:30:53 -0500 There is a section of PRR water trough on display at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg. It appears to be about 28 inches wide. The sides extend straight up (90 degrees to the bottom) about 8 or 10 inches and then have a flange on top about three inches wide that angles down and in at about 30 degrees. Not sure if these steel troughs sat directly on the tops of the ties or not. Roadbed in the area of the troughs had what appear as cobblestones covering or replacing the normal ballast presumably to prevent erosion from the constant water blasts. I believe the troughs were typically about 2,000 feet long and were heated by a nearby steam plant to prevent freezing. I'm sure there are others on the list who can add to or correct my information. Let's hear from you. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: HGordon552@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 6:23 AM Subject: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs >Interested in more information on water scoops and water troughs. >First question, were water troughs put on top of the ties, or, were they set- >in. >How deep was the pan and how long? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is >BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:52:03 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs --------------E6A95BEDC5E68E14F971E78D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: I can't find my PRR track diagram for water pan's, but I did find a short blurb on Track Tanks in the Railway Engineering and Maintenance Cyclopedia 1942: "Track Tanks Where passenger schedules are such that it is desired that locomotives may take water without the necessity of stopping the train, track pans are installed. These consist of a metal water trough located centrally between and below the tops of the running rails in the main track from which a locomotive traviling at high speed may take water through aforward-bent drop pipe or scoop attached beneath and connecting with the tender tank. This trough is commonly 6 in. to 71/2 in. deep, 19 in. to 27 in. wide and 1500 to 2000 ft. in lenght with vertically-inclined end sections as a protection against damage from lowered scoops. The average inside dimensions are 7 in. deep by 19 in. wide by 1800 ft. long. The depth is governed by the diameter of the scoop which shuld be submerged at least two inches without scraping the bottom of the pan while operating; by required tank capacity and by the allowable dap in the ties. The width must allow for side play in the spout as well as overflow due to distrubance, which amounts to 25 per cent to 50 per cent of the water supplied as engines must maintain speeds of 20 miles per hour or more and frequently travel at 50 to 60 miles per hour while scooping water. The lenght of the pan depends on the locomotive tank requirements and on the distance between water stations. Track tanks are placed on level and preferabley on straight track, through a forward-bent drop pipe or scoop attached are located between stations where full speed of trains is feasible and where drainage si readily obtained for the wasted water. They are made of 3/16-in. to 1/4-in. bent sheet steel shapes or of steel channel sides riveted on flat sheet steel bottoms, which may be removed economically for repairs. The 8-in. ties commonly used under track tanks are dapped as much as 2 1/4 in. and the tanks are fitted in these daps and secured to the ties by fastenings through angle irons riveted to the sides. The sections are made of convenient lenghts for handling ususally 15 ft. and over. The end inclines are 5 ft. to 20 ft. long, the bottom incline plate being supported on a solid bed of wedge-shaped timbers. Drainage from track pans is arranged sometimes by laying paving between double tracks with cross drains at subgrade to deliver the water into mains. An arrangement of surface box drains laid across the road bed between the ties at intervals of 50 ft. is also considered good track tank drainage practice. The water is usually tapped into the pan from two or more pipes of sizes and locations determinded by the water pressure and the time required to fill the tank, the filling being preferable regulated by automatic valves. In freezing weather the water is heated by blowing steam into it through nozzles in the sides 20 ft. to 30 ft. apart; or by circulation from a pump with a heater or injector. A locomotive will take from 1.5 to 3.0 gal. of water per linear foot of track pan under average conditions, depending on the size of the pan, the design of the scoop, its depth below the surface of the water, and the speed of the locomotive while scooping. The advantage of a track tank is that trains do not stop while the locmotive is taking water. The use of the device is limited to locomotives provided with scoops, to locations between stations on level track where water supply and drainage conditions are favoroable, and to lines where numerous fast trains are operated." I can't remember where - but I think that an article was publsihed about track pans not too long ago - I could be wrong. cos jbreon wrote: > There is a section of PRR water trough on display at the Railroad > Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg. It appears to be about 28 inches wide. > The sides extend straight up (90 degrees to the bottom) about 8 or 10 inches > and then have a flange on top about three inches wide that angles down and > in at about 30 degrees. Not sure if these steel troughs sat directly on the > tops of the ties or not. Roadbed in the area of the troughs had what appear > as cobblestones covering or replacing the normal ballast presumably to > prevent erosion from the constant water blasts. I believe the troughs were > typically about 2,000 feet long and were heated by a nearby steam plant to > prevent freezing. > I'm sure there are others on the list who can add to or correct my > information. Let's hear from you. > Jerry Breon > -----Original Message----- > From: HGordon552@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 6:23 AM > Subject: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs > > >Interested in more information on water scoops and water troughs. > >First question, were water troughs put on top of the ties, or, were they > set- > >in. > >How deep was the pan and how long? > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > >BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------E6A95BEDC5E68E14F971E78D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:

I can't find my PRR track diagram for water pan's, but I did find a short blurb on Track Tanks in the Railway Engineering and Maintenance Cyclopedia 1942:

"Track Tanks

Where passenger schedules are such that it is desired that locomotives may take water without the necessity of stopping the train, track pans are installed.  These consist of a metal water trough located centrally between and below the tops of the running rails in the main track from which a locomotive traviling at high speed may take water through aforward-bent drop pipe or scoop attached beneath and connecting with the tender tank.  This trough is commonly 6 in. to 71/2 in. deep, 19 in. to 27 in. wide and 1500 to 2000 ft. in lenght with vertically-inclined end sections as a protection against damage from lowered scoops.  The average inside dimensions are 7 in. deep by 19 in. wide by 1800 ft. long.  The depth is governed by the diameter of the scoop which shuld be submerged at least two inches without scraping the bottom of the pan while operating; by required tank capacity and by the allowable dap in the ties.  The width must allow for side play in the spout as well as overflow due to distrubance, which amounts to 25 per cent to 50 per cent of the water supplied as engines must maintain speeds of 20 miles per hour or more and frequently travel at 50 to 60 miles per hour while scooping water.  The lenght of the pan depends on the locomotive tank requirements and on the distance between water stations.  Track tanks are placed on level and preferabley on straight track, through a forward-bent drop pipe or scoop attached are located between stations where full speed of trains is feasible and where drainage si readily obtained for the wasted water.  They are made of 3/16-in. to 1/4-in. bent sheet steel shapes or of steel channel sides riveted on flat sheet steel bottoms,  which may be removed economically for repairs.  The 8-in. ties commonly used under track tanks are dapped as much as 2 1/4 in. and the tanks are fitted in these daps and secured to the ties by fastenings through angle irons riveted to the sides.  The sections are made of convenient lenghts for handling ususally 15 ft. and over.  The end inclines are 5 ft. to 20 ft. long, the bottom incline plate being supported on a solid bed of wedge-shaped timbers.

Drainage from track pans is arranged sometimes by laying paving between double tracks with cross drains at subgrade to deliver the water into mains.  An arrangement of surface box drains laid across the road bed between the ties at intervals of 50 ft. is also considered good track tank drainage practice.

The water is usually tapped into the pan from two or more pipes of sizes and locations determinded by the water pressure and the time required to fill the tank,
the filling being preferable regulated by automatic valves.  In freezing weather the water is heated by blowing steam into it through nozzles in the sides 20 ft. to 30 ft. apart; or by circulation from a pump with a heater or injector.

A locomotive will take from 1.5 to 3.0 gal. of water per linear foot of track pan under average conditions, depending on the size of the pan, the design of the scoop, its depth below the surface of the water, and the speed of the locomotive while scooping.  The advantage of a track tank is that trains do not stop while the locmotive is taking water.  The use of the device is limited to locomotives provided with scoops, to locations between stations on level track where water supply and drainage conditions are favoroable, and to lines where numerous fast trains are operated."

I can't remember where - but I think that an article was publsihed about track pans not too long ago - I could be wrong.

cos
 

jbreon wrote:

      There is a section of PRR water trough on display at the Railroad
Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg. It appears to be about 28 inches wide.
The sides extend straight up (90 degrees to the bottom) about 8 or 10 inches
and then have a flange on top about three inches wide that angles down and
in at about 30 degrees. Not sure if these steel troughs sat directly on the
tops of the ties or not. Roadbed in the area of the troughs had what appear
as cobblestones covering or replacing the normal ballast presumably to
prevent erosion from the constant water blasts. I believe the troughs were
typically about 2,000 feet long and were heated by a nearby steam plant to
prevent freezing.
      I'm sure there are others on the list who can add to or correct my
information. Let's hear from you.
Jerry Breon
-----Original Message-----
From: HGordon552@aol.com <HGordon552@aol.com>
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 6:23 AM
Subject: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs

>Interested in more information on water scoops and water troughs.
>First question, were water troughs put on top of the ties, or, were they
set-
>in.
>How deep was the pan and how long?
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is
>BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is
BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
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  --------------E6A95BEDC5E68E14F971E78D-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:27:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Freight Cars Rich, This sounds like good news. The early C&BT cars were quite nice, and had various versions to match specific railraods. I never have seen one of their santa Fe reefers, but the photos looked pretty decent. Hopefully going back to separate parts and using the best of the old kits will produce a winner. i always like to see these small companies do well with a good product, especially when made in the usa. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:21:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs In a message dated 11/28/98 6:18:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, HGordon552@aol.com writes: > Interested in more information on water scoops and water troughs. > First question, were water troughs put on top of the ties, or, were they set- > > in. > How deep was the pan and how long? > The troughs sat down between the rails. The troughs were "ramped" on each end to prevent catching the scoop. Length varied from on installation to another. The could be as short as 1/2 mile and as long as 1 1/2 miles. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:10:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive Survery Results In a message dated 11/26/98 9:30:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: > Lima T-2500 1 > Lima transfer BS24m 5 <-is this the same as above? > Jerry, yes these are the same loco T-2500 is Lima's model designstion. BS24m is PRR class. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:07:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR] (Westinghouse) WABCO and Westinghouse Electric (WESCO) have been separate companies since George Westinghouse founded them. WESCO which purchased CBS has divested itself of all holdings not directly related to the broadcast industry. It was WESCO which over extended itself through it financial division (bad loans) that necessitated selling off assets to cover losses. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:03:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Freight Cars In a message dated 11/26/98 4:53:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: > I really can't > figure out C&BT shops. I had picked up a handful of their earlier boxcars, > with separate ladders and etc. Some of the parts were somewhat crude, but > not > a bad kit. Next time I'm looking at some of their cars they look like ersatz > Accurail, molded grab and ladders and all that crap. Dick Schweiger was given some very bad advice by several of the well know pundants. They told him he could increase his sales by having the details mold on the cars. He had the molds recut with molded on parts. This change cannot be reversed and at a cost of approximately $60,000 a mold you need to sell a ton of cars to recover the cost of making new dies. The X29B and X29D will be a mix of molded on and separate details. New car side and floor dies had to be cut for these cars. The roof and ends are the old dies. The brake rigging is finer detail that P2K and made of a plastic that does not break everytime you try to remove them from the sprue. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:25:50 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Nov 18 Surplus Book List available Subject: NEW UPDATES to book and magazine sale list. It's time again for updates to the book and magazine sale list. Junk this if you're not looking for railroad related books. The NMRA's Kalmbach Memorial Library maintains a list of duplicate materials which are offered for sale to the public. There are hundreds of books, magazines and videotapes on the list, which is updated approximately every month or six weeks. The Nov. 18 list is now available on the NMRA's web site, http://www.nmra.org. Choose the "Kalmbach Memorial Library" link, and then the "Duplicate Book Sales" link to see the list. You can also register the page with a service like URLminder to be notified whenever a revised list is posted to the Web site. A printed version of the list is also available from the NMRA. To receive it, send a self-addressed envelope with $.55 postage affixed to: Duplicate Book Sale/ KML NMRA 4121 Cromwell Road Chattanooga, TN 37421 ================= Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://cid.railfan.net/ ============================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ======= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 19:19:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive Survery Results In a message dated 11/28/98 3:13:13 PM Central Standard Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << Jerry, yes these are the same loco T-2500 is Lima's model designstion. BS24m is PRR class. >> A fine point, but I thought the Lima's were LS25 and BS24m was the Baldwin transfer diesel. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:24:58 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] LS25 and BS24/BS24m Howdy all and an apology for grouping these two engines together! The PRR placed 3 orders for BS24's with Baldwin, however, only one of these orders was placed after Lima had been merged into Baldwin and locomotive production had discontinued at Lima. Lima model T2500, PRR class LS25, ordered late 1949 delivered through 1950 - 1951. PRR was the only recipient of this model from Lima. LS25 - 5671 to 5683 (13) - not MU equipped The second group was ordered and delivered in 1951. PRR class LS25m LS25m - 8943 to 8951 (9) - MU equipped (8951 last Lima Loco built) also 8948 and 8949 had Dynamic Brakes Baldwin model RT624, PRR class BS24, ordered 14 units on 10/1950. Delivered 8/1951 to 11/1951 BS24 - 8952 to 8953 on cast steel [Commonwealth] trucks (same as the LS25's) not MU equiped BS24m - 8954 to 8965 on cast steel trucks and MU equiped. also 8958 to 8965 were equipped with dynamic brakes (orig class BS24d) The second order placed 11/1951 for 8 units were delivered 10/1952 to 12/1952 (after Lima was merged with Baldwin) BS24m - 8724 to 8731 on GSC rigid-bolster trucks (also found on Fairbanks-Morse H24-66 and later model AS616's) MU and Dynamic brake equipped. The third and final order for one unit was place on June of 1953 delivered February 1954. BS24m - 8113 same equipment as the second order. Major spotting features: T2500(LS25/LS25m) had louvers all over the hood doors with a large radiator section at each end of the locomotive. Flat walkways to the cab. RT624(BS24/Bs24m) mostly solid doors on the hood with very GE U25B radiator section. Walkway takes a step up halfway to the cab on both ends of the locomotive. I apologize to any and all for my survey response that indicated that these are the same thing. My intent was that either of these units would be neat. While the T2500 was a PRR only engine, the RT624 had one other customer, for one unit only, the MN&S ( Minneapolis, Northfield and Southern ) engine number 25. Don't confuse the RT624 with the DT-6-6-2000. cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:16:56 EST Subject: [PRR] SPEAKING OF FREIGHT CARS Folks, I was looking through the 1999 Walthers catalog and noticed a couple of Tichey listings that made me curious. there's a lsting for X29 and B&O M26 box cars, as well as a USRA composite gon. Do these kits actually exist, or is this more "soon" to be released stuff? for years there's been talk of the X29's but with Red Caboose in action, that would be rather moot. The gondolas could be interesting, though. Anyone know if there is such a kit? Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 19:06:33 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Address change reminder A reminder... A number of people still have me in their address book as rhensley@ecicnet.org and that has changed to... rhensley@anderson.cioe.com Thank you and I now return control of your e-mail to you. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === The only bad model is the one that you won't build ========== === because of what others might think ========================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:50:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive Survery Results In a message dated 11/28/98 7:45:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > A fine point, but I thought the Lima's were LS25 and BS24m was the Baldwin > transfer diesel. > opps. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Happy Thanksgiving Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:32:35 -0500 Rich, So how did the stuffing taste? Thanks for the anticipated answer. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RICHARD > ADER > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 1998 10:28 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Happy Thanksgiving > > > Fellow listers: > I'm trying something new this year: The > stuffing recipe from the Keystone 'Pennsy > Dining Car', and am going to eat my dinner on my collection of china > from the Broadway Ltd. > > Happy Thanksgiving everybody > > Rich > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Wallpaper Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:22:29 -0500 Chris, Very nice home page. And, the wallpaper images are great! Thanks for sharing. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chris > Brandt > Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 12:19 AM > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Wallpaper > > > Happy Thanksgiving. > > Have just re-scanned some photographs in high resolution. Background > wallpaper size and in different color schemes. Please tell me what you > think. > > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/wallpaper.html > > -- > Chris Brandt > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:16:40 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Duplexs,Something to Think About --------------15CCDDFC457ED2199B506071 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All and Hank: The following paragraph from the Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 1846 - 1946 will answer your war questions. "The company had added no new steam freight or passenger locomotives to its roster since the late 1920s, partly because of the lower level of traffic prevailing before the war, and partly because electrification in the East had released good steam power for service elsewhere. The power available was reasonably adequate for the task at the time of Pearl Harbor, but it soon became apparent that increasing business would make more locomotives necessary. Had the need not been great, the War Production Board would not have released the materials necessary for their construction. The new type of freight locomotive with which the company had been experimenting, a high-powered four-cylinder unit, was not ready for production in quantity, so a 2-10-4 type was adopted, and six of these locomotives were turned out in 1942, 101 in 1943 and 18 in 1944. It was equally desirable to have new passenger locomotives, but material shortages prevented their construction, and under government regulations, no new passenger cars could be built. The company was permitted, however, to complete the two four-cylinder passenger locomotives which were put under construction in 1941 and went into service in 1942." Found on page 685. >From the above paragraph you can see the WPBs restriction on new passenger locomotives, and that the PRR was not ready to mass produce a Q series engine. Nothing in any thing that I have read restricted the PRR from continuing to experiment on its own locomotive design. The J1 and J1a were a proven design, in the size and power that the PRR needed - so they built 125 of the beasts. The PRR developed its design and when they next needed and could show the WPB that they had a solid design, they got the blessing to build the 26 Q2's. Just a few comparisons between the J1a and Q2: J1/J1a type 2-10-4 TE = 93750 29x34@270lbs with 69 inch drivers 108750 lbs of TE with booster. Factor of Adhesion 4.03 weight on drivers 379300 (J1a with cast steel bed) total weight in working order 574730. Q2 type 4-4-6-4 TE = 100800 front cyl-19 3/4x28 rear cyl- 23 3/4x29@300 lbs with 69 inch drivers 115800 lbs of TE with booster Factor of Adhesion (main engine) 3.90 weight on drivers 393000 total weight in working order 619100 We can see that the J1a was a much better engine than the Q2 (yes, I really wrote this without a gun to my head) - the math speaks for itself! First the J1a had 65% of its weight on drivers, the Q2 had 63% They had the same Grate area 121.7, about the same fire area 12.76 sq ft for the J1a and 12.59 for the Q2, Total heating surface was 9498 for the J1a and 9445 for the Q2. The big difference in these boilers ( outside of Belpire vs Radial Stay) was the boiler pressure. The driver size was determined by the placement of the rear engines valve chest location. With all the associated plumbing a 69 inch wheel was needed to clear everything and still provide a large enough diameter to meet the needs for a fast freight locomotive. The J1's were originally built with 69 inch drivers. If the J1a had had a boiler pressure of 300 lbs like the Q2 the starting tractive effort would have been 104163 lbs from a locomotive that was almost 8 % lighter and with one less set of valve gear, a 4 to 5 % increase in TE over the Q2. In addition the Q2 had a very leaky boiler. In the Q2's favor it did record the highest indicated horsepower 7987 vs 7000 hp for a J1 at the Altoona test plant. The Q2 was more expensive to maintain - four sets of valve gear and all the extra piping needed for a duplex machine, and don't forget the electircally controlled anti slip device. It like the T1 must have been a maintenance night mare. If the PRR had not gone head over heals into the diesel-electric (not straight electric), maybe they would have been around a little longer. But with the downturn in ton miles after the war the increase in diesels, the most expensive things to maintain are the first to go - and we all know how well the Pennsy watched the Penny's. Anyway hope that answers your questions on the Q2, the S1, S2, T1 vs standard PRR practice is for another night. cos bubbles@visi.net wrote: > This concerns Pennsy's duplex engines....some things i've been wondering > about that there may not be a answer to. First off...During WWII new > designs were suppose to be taboo...but the Q-1 was a untried design > built during the war...Now i could see the 6110-6111 T-1's being > built as these were a prewar design...but the Q-1? How did they > get permission to do so? I understand the reason to build it... > an experiment...hence the changes on the Q-2's. Now since i've brought > the Q-2's up...why 69" drivers when the M-1 classes had 72" standard > drivers ...or even 70" drivers which were used on J-1 classes ? > With the standardization idea that was supposed to be so well ingrained > on the Pennsy,you would think they would use a existing size. > So why the 69" size? Also if they had,had a 72" driver perhaps > they could have been used as a dual service engine...maybe not on > the top name trains...but on the heavier lesser known ones to help > eliminate helpers on Horseshoe Curve. I think i've seen a picture > of one on the curve. > > Now on to a couple of other duplex things.... > It has been well stated that the T-1 engines were very slippery... > But you will note that S-1 6100 was a very similar design...same number of > drivers but much more heavier... > and you don't hear about wheel slippage as much concerning that engine. > Were poppets that potent? You would think that Pennsy would have remembered > and taken adhesion weight into concideration when they desiged the T-1. > Now...why was it that you had the T-1 with all its slipping problems > and poppet costs running into the mid 1950's...but the Q-2 (which did > have some slipping,but not so bad) which had regular valves and > better horsepower having most of that class being retired by 1950? > And one other thing....Have you all noticed that on PRR passenger > duplex engines,they have a full diaphram between the engine and tender > but on the freight duplexs they did not? (ok,ok...the Q-1 did have a > semi diaphram,but remember it was a experimental..also the T-1's > were known to be very dirty) > Was PRR's thinking such that having a diaphram on freight engines > an extravagance? (ok..i do realize the Q-2 was a "war baby") > > This is all something to think about and ponder...We all might never > know why any of this was done. > > Have a Happy Holiday > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > P.S. For my money...I like the Q-2 best of the duplexes. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------15CCDDFC457ED2199B506071 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All and Hank:

The following paragraph from the Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 1846 - 1946 will answer your war questions.

     "The company had added no new steam freight or passenger locomotives to its roster since the late 1920s, partly because of the lower level of traffic prevailing before the war, and partly because electrification in the East had released good steam power for service elsewhere.  The power available was reasonably adequate for the task at the time of Pearl Harbor, but it soon became apparent that increasing business would make more locomotives necessary.  Had the need not been great, the War Production Board would not have released the materials necessary for their construction.  The new type of freight locomotive with which the company had been experimenting, a high-powered four-cylinder unit, was not ready for production in quantity, so a 2-10-4 type was adopted, and six of these locomotives were turned out in 1942, 101 in 1943 and 18 in 1944.  It was equally desirable to have new passenger locomotives, but material shortages prevented their construction, and under government regulations, no new passenger cars could be built.  The company was permitted, however, to complete the two four-cylinder passenger locomotives which were put under construction in 1941 and went into service in 1942."  Found on page 685.

From the above paragraph you can see the WPBs restriction on new passenger locomotives, and that the PRR was not ready to mass produce a Q series engine.  Nothing in any thing that I have read restricted the PRR from continuing to experiment on its own locomotive design.  The J1 and J1a were a proven design, in the size and power that the PRR needed - so they built 125 of the beasts.  The PRR developed its design and when they next needed and could show the WPB that they had a solid design, they got the blessing to build the 26 Q2's.

Just a few comparisons between the J1a and Q2:
J1/J1a   type 2-10-4  TE = 93750  29x34@270lbs with 69 inch drivers 108750 lbs of TE with booster.  Factor of Adhesion 4.03 weight on drivers 379300 (J1a with cast steel bed) total weight in working order 574730.

Q2 type 4-4-6-4 TE = 100800 front cyl-19 3/4x28 rear cyl- 23 3/4x29@300 lbs with 69 inch drivers 115800 lbs of TE with booster Factor of Adhesion (main engine) 3.90 weight on drivers 393000 total weight in working order 619100

We can see that the J1a was a much better engine than the Q2 (yes, I really wrote this without a gun to my head) - the math speaks for itself!
First the J1a had 65% of its weight on drivers, the Q2 had 63%
They had the same Grate area 121.7, about the same fire area 12.76 sq ft for the J1a and 12.59 for the Q2, Total heating surface was 9498 for the J1a and 9445 for the Q2.  The big difference in these boilers ( outside of Belpire vs Radial Stay) was the boiler pressure.

The driver size was determined by the placement of the rear engines valve chest location.  With all the associated plumbing a 69 inch wheel was needed to clear everything and still provide a large enough diameter to meet the needs for a fast freight locomotive.  The J1's were originally built with 69 inch drivers.

If the J1a had had a boiler pressure of 300 lbs like the Q2 the starting tractive effort would have been 104163 lbs from a locomotive that was almost 8 % lighter and with one less set of valve gear, a 4 to 5 % increase in TE over the Q2.  In addition the Q2 had a very leaky boiler.  In the Q2's favor it did record the highest indicated horsepower 7987 vs 7000 hp for a J1 at the Altoona test plant.   The Q2 was more expensive to maintain - four sets of valve gear and all the extra piping needed for a duplex machine, and don't forget the electircally controlled anti slip device.  It like the T1 must have been a maintenance night mare.  If the PRR had not gone head over heals into the diesel-electric (not straight electric), maybe they would have been around a little longer.  But with the downturn in ton miles after the war the increase in diesels, the most expensive things to maintain are the first to go - and we all know how well the Pennsy  watched the Penny's.

Anyway hope that answers your questions on the Q2, the S1, S2, T1 vs standard PRR practice is for another night.

cos
 

bubbles@visi.net wrote:

  This concerns Pennsy's duplex engines....some things i've been wondering
  about that there may not be a answer to. First off...During WWII new
  designs were suppose to be taboo...but the Q-1 was a untried design
  built during the war...Now i could see the 6110-6111 T-1's being
  built as these were a prewar design...but the Q-1? How did they
  get permission to do so? I understand the reason to build it...
  an experiment...hence the changes on the Q-2's. Now since i've brought
  the Q-2's up...why 69" drivers when the M-1 classes had 72" standard
  drivers ...or even 70" drivers which were used on J-1 classes ?
  With the standardization idea that was supposed to be so well ingrained
  on the Pennsy,you would think they would use a existing size.
  So why the 69" size? Also if they had,had a 72" driver perhaps
  they could have been used as a dual service engine...maybe not on
  the top name trains...but on the heavier lesser known ones to help
  eliminate helpers on Horseshoe Curve. I think i've seen a picture
  of one on the curve.

  Now on to a couple of other duplex things....
  It has been well stated that the T-1 engines were very slippery...
  But you will note that S-1 6100 was a very similar design...same number of
  drivers but much more heavier...
and you don't hear about wheel slippage as much concerning that engine.
  Were poppets that potent? You would think that Pennsy would have remembered
  and taken adhesion weight into concideration when they desiged the T-1.
  Now...why was it that you had the T-1 with all its slipping problems
  and poppet costs running into the mid 1950's...but the Q-2 (which did
  have some slipping,but not so bad) which had regular valves and
  better horsepower having most of that class being retired by 1950?
  And one other thing....Have you all noticed that on PRR passenger
  duplex engines,they have a full diaphram between the engine and tender
  but on the freight duplexs they did not? (ok,ok...the Q-1 did have a
  semi diaphram,but remember it was a experimental..also the T-1's
  were known to be very dirty)
  Was PRR's thinking such that having a diaphram on freight engines
  an extravagance? (ok..i do realize the Q-2 was a "war baby")

  This is all something to think about and ponder...We all might never
  know why any of this was done.

                                       Have a Happy Holiday
                                       Til Later
                                       Hank Mummert

  P.S.  For my money...I like the Q-2 best of the duplexes.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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  --------------15CCDDFC457ED2199B506071-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 05:41:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs In a message dated 98-11-28 15:11:11 EST, wsbcos@cris.com writes: << but I think that an article was publsihed about track pans not too long ago - I could be wrong. >> It was the Keystone or the High Line, probably the former. I currently can't go upstairs and dig through the files, but I believe it was within the past 5 years. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Williamsport box cars. Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:07:08 -0800 I recently heard from Mr. Pontius of Penn Valley Pictures that there are some outside brace wooden boxcars in the old williamsport yards. He does not know the vintage or road of these cars. Does anyone know about these? Greg Stone PRRTHS member interested in any info or photos of the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Steam Power Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:03:53 -0800 I often here criticisms of pennsy steam, ie the T1 the Q2 etc. I believe many people forget that the steam locomotive like any product goes through evolutions. Look at the M1, M1a, M1b. I also believe that the problems that "plagued" the more modern pennsy steam would have been worked out with time at least to some degree. With the dawn of the more economical, not more powerful, diesel locomotive, the evolution of the steam power ended. I like to dream of what may have become of the steam engine had the diesel engine not come along. Look at the evolution of the diesel locomotive. Perhaps had the T1 not been built without so much aluminum she would not have slipped so much. Maybe with time the poppet valves could have been "perfected" or another better valve have replaced it. A mechanism that would prevent the different drives from being out of sync too much could have been developed and i believe was. Imagine what would have been said about the T1 then. I believe these problems could and would have been surmounted had the steam age pressed on ; and, the T1 and Q2 would have been around much much longer. The fact that research in these areas were halted and therefore that the older more reliable power stayed in sevice longer is not proof in my eyes that the older power or the J1 s were better engines. Just my belief to support my fantasy of everlasting steam. Greg Stone PRRT&HS member interested in any photos or info on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Coaling Tower Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:23:19 -0800 Does anyone know of any other coaling towers still extant in Pa, or a PRR coaling tower anywhere else, other than the one mentioned before on the PRR talk and the one at Renovo. The one at Renovo needs support from people interested in its preservation. This tower I have read and believe is the most complete coaling tower existing in Pa. It still has most of its hardware. The chute extensions are gone and some other pieces are missing such as three pulley wheels. However there is still one of those pulleys and several others on her which could be used for a pattern. The chutes extensions could be rebuilt so that she would be almost complete. I don't know if the bucket is down below because the pit beneath is filled with water. By chance does anyone have any blueprints on this tower or a similar one. There is an effort on the part of the Clinton County Economic Partnership to preserve the tower. If we could gather information, photos and show an interest I believe the CCEP would go a lot further towards completing this goal. They seem to have some money although I believe a contribution by others would greatly encourage them. I know they are disappointed with local support. Anyone interested you may contact me directly. Greg Stone GAS@fastinet.net PRRTHS member interested in ANY photos or info on the renovo yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Coaling tower Renovo Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:27:13 -0800 Does anyone know for what purpose the tank on the side of the coaling tower was used? There are rainspouts on the roof that lead to and appear to drain into this tank so I assumes it had water in it. Greg Stone PRRT&HS member interested in ANY information or Photos on the Renovo Yard ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:31:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] SPEAKING OF FREIGHT CARS Barry, I have heard that the test shot are done of the USRA composite gondola. It was scratch built by I believe Bob Hundman in Mainline Modeler in the early 80's (help me out here Al Sr.). It was a beautiful job and he painted it for Boston and Maine. I had heard a couple years ago that Tichy had the tooling for the X-29 and held back on the release of the kit because of the Red Caboose kit. I have heard that we will see the B&O M-26 first though. All will be welcomed additions to my fleet. I love the Tichy stuff and the tooling is the best in the industry. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Tower Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:03:51 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Greg Stone To: PRR talk Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 2:31 PM Subject: [PRR] Coaling Tower >Does anyone know of any other coaling towers still extant in Pa, or a PRR >coaling tower anywhere else, other than the one mentioned before on the PRR >talk and the one at Renovo. Greg and talk group, As of September 1998 the concrete coaling tower minus ALL hardware was still standing in Wheatland, PA on the former Erie & Pittsburgh Branch. It is in the middle of an industrial complex completely surrounded by chain link fencing. I guess the industry thought it was too expensive to tear down. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bowtrolley" Subject: [PRR] Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:19:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE1BC4.C45B2480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a cast concrete PRR coaling tower at the LIRR Jamaica Terminal. = You can see it up close from Atlantic Avenue.=20 By the way, if anyone wants to see some pix of the Brooklyn Trolley = Museum, go into your search engine, put in Brooklyn Trolley Museum, = after that, The Atlantic Avenue Tunnel. Does anyone have pixs or info on the West Jersey & Seashore? It was a = PRR third rail operation between Philly and A.C. Bob D ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE1BC4.C45B2480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a cast concrete PRR coaling = tower at=20 the LIRR Jamaica Terminal. You can see it up close from Atlantic Avenue. =
 
By the way, if anyone wants to see = some pix of=20 the Brooklyn Trolley Museum, go into your search engine, put in Brooklyn = Trolley=20 Museum, after that, The Atlantic Avenue Tunnel.
 
Does anyone have pixs or info on the = West Jersey=20 & Seashore? It was a PRR third rail operation between Philly and=20 A.C.
 
Bob D
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE1BC4.C45B2480-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:37:23 -0600 Subject: [PRR] FM Erie Builts From: locoshop@juno.com Hello, Wondered if PRR had any Fairbanks-Morse Eirei Built units and if so how many? Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com (no web access) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRR-Talk" Subject: Re: [Fwd: P.R.R.] Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 19:40:25 -0500 >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------58D87CAF1583F0AD03CA25FC >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Greetings, > I'm forwarding this mail to the group from Dan Adair >(ALTOONAWKS@aol.com). > >-- >Chris Brandt >http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > > >--------------58D87CAF1583F0AD03CA25FC >Content-Type: message/rfc822 >Content-Disposition: inline > >Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) > by mail.eclipse.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA18442 Your message could not be posted to the PRR-Talk list because the message seemed to contain an enclosure. For more information, you can contact the list administrator at: Listmaster !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:23:28 -0500 (EST) From: Rick Nelson Subject: [PRR] Coaling Towers The coal tower still stands north of Marion, Ohio on the old Sandusky line of the PRR. Line has been owned by NW & NS for many years. Must cost plenty to take it down. Rick Nelson, W8PRR West Liberty, Ohio Luke 4:4 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:12:51 EST Subject: [PRR] water scoops, water troughs Somewhere in the dustbin of my memory I recall reading the story of a PRR Limited diverted to the NYC. With an NYC engine in the lead, the PRR crew was making up time, but running out of water. After two instances of unfamiliar whistle signals from the lead engine the crew figured out that they were being alerted to upcoming track pans and decided to be ready for the next one. After the whistle signals the PRR crew was ready and lowered the scoop quickly when they hit the pans - ready to pull it up a the next whistle. After they tanked a full load of water, and retracted the scoop the Engineer congratulated the Fireman and asked "how did you know it would fit?" The Fireman replied with a horrified look - he'd never considered that angle ! Actually, given the constaints of the distance between the rails, it was pretty likely that the "Red" and "Green" standards would not be to much different - and I never considered that there would be an AAR or Master Mechanics standard - until I read it on this list. - Thanks ! Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:43:16 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] --------------E599EE3CCD2BAA7DF29412BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All and Bowtrolley: The West Jersey & Seashore began service on its newly electrified line from Camdem (Camdem's Federal Street Station NJ) to Atlantic City via Newfield NJ (secondary or alternate main) on September 18th 1906. The ten miles from Newfield to Millville opened on October of 1906. >From what I can find, it appears that Camdem to AC service lasted until 1931 when Newfield to AC was discontinued. Local Service out of Camdem to Millville lasted until 1949. The State of NJ order the PRSL to stop using wooden cars in 1948. Here is the all time list of PRSL electirc cars - all had GE electircal equipment (including two 200 hp motors per car); PRR designed - 55 ft. and built of wood the first order: 5135 + 5136 38 seat / baggage combine 5457 + 5458 RPO / baggage combine 6422 + 6423 Express / baggage combine 6700 to 6761 58 passenger coach (62 cars) Builders included J.G. Brill, American Car and Foundry and Wason. I have no information on who built what although most of the combines appear to have been built by Wason. I have one reference to a second order for 18 wood coach's - no date, but it would seem to fit. 6762 to 6779 58 passenger coach (18 cars) Most rosters show wood coaches numbered 6700 to 6779 (80) - the original order was for 62 coaches only. The next order is for steel cars. These cars appear to be simialr the MP54's - 64' 6" 72 seat - except set up for thrid rail and trolley operation, looks like an MP54 to me. My guess is that they were built in the 1915 - 1922 era at Altoona. 5137 + 5138 52 seat / baggage combine 6780 to 6794 72 seat coach. Biblography: Under Pennsy Wires by Paul Carleton copyright 1977 Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines by Frederick A. Kramer copyright 1980 The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad Wayner Publications no copyright date Pennsy Power III by Alvin F. Staufer copyright 1993 Electirc Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad 1895 - 1968 by Michael Bezilla copyright 1980 cos bowtrolley wrote: > Does anyone have pixs or info on the West Jersey & Seashore? It was a > PRR third rail operation between Philly and A.C. Bob D --------------E599EE3CCD2BAA7DF29412BA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All and Bowtrolley:

The West Jersey  & Seashore began service on  its newly electrified line from Camdem (Camdem's Federal Street Station NJ) to Atlantic City via Newfield NJ (secondary or alternate main) on September 18th 1906.  The ten miles from Newfield to Millville opened on October of 1906.

From what I can find, it appears that Camdem to AC service lasted until 1931 when Newfield to AC was discontinued.   Local Service out of Camdem to Millville lasted until 1949.  The State of NJ order the PRSL to stop using wooden cars in 1948.

Here is the all time list of PRSL electirc cars - all had GE electircal equipment (including two 200 hp motors per car); PRR designed - 55 ft. and built of wood
the first order:

5135 + 5136  38 seat / baggage combine

5457 + 5458 RPO / baggage combine

6422 + 6423 Express / baggage combine

6700 to 6761  58 passenger coach (62 cars)

Builders included J.G. Brill, American Car and Foundry and Wason.  I have no information on who built what although most of the combines appear to have been built by Wason.

I have one reference to a second order for 18 wood coach's - no date, but it would seem to fit.
6762 to 6779 58 passenger coach (18 cars)
Most rosters show wood coaches numbered 6700 to 6779 (80) - the original order was for 62 coaches only.

The next order is for steel cars.  These cars appear to be simialr the MP54's - 64' 6" 72 seat - except set up for thrid rail and trolley operation, looks like an MP54 to me.  My guess is that they were built in the 1915 - 1922 era at Altoona.

5137 + 5138 52 seat / baggage combine

6780 to 6794 72 seat coach.

Biblography:
Under Pennsy Wires by Paul Carleton copyright 1977
Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines by Frederick A. Kramer copyright 1980
The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad  Wayner Publications no copyright date
Pennsy Power III by Alvin F. Staufer copyright 1993
Electirc Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad 1895 -  1968 by Michael Bezilla copyright 1980

cos

bowtrolley wrote:

Does anyone have pixs or info on the West Jersey & Seashore? It was a PRR third rail operation between Philly and A.C. Bob D
--------------E599EE3CCD2BAA7DF29412BA-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:29:32 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] FM Erie Builts Howdy All and Jeremy: Fairbanks Morse "Erie Built" 2000hp A-1-A trucks, final PRR class FF20, included: 9456A to 9491A or 36 A units 9456B to 9478B or 12 B units Listed in Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June 2, 1952 the PRR listed these types of FM A-1-A wheeled locomotives: FP-20 "A" 230,800 lbs - steam heat - no dynamic brakes (9478A-9479A) FP-20 "B" 232,100 lbs - steam heat - no dynamic brakes (9478B) - original class FF3 than FP20 than FF20 FP-20a "A" 236,200 lbs - steam heat - dynamic brakes (9472A-9477A) FP-20a "B" 232,600 lbs - steam heat - dynamic brakes (9472B-9476B evan only) - original class FF3 than FP20a than FF20 FF-20 "A" 245,720 lbs - no heat - dynamic brakes all other A units FF-20 "B" 245,140 lbs - no heat - dynamic brakes all other B units - not listed above original class FF2 or FF3 ( can't tell which were which) than FF20 cos wsbcos.com locoshop@juno.com wrote: > Hello, > > Wondered if PRR had any Fairbanks-Morse Eirei Built units and if so how > many? Thanks. > > Jeremy Helms > Omaha, Nebraska > locoshop@juno.com > (no web access) > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:08:22 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (I) Dave, I grew up between Dayton and Xenia, and model that area circa 1968. Even as I write this, I see fellow LWF (Lines West Fan) Tom Vondruska's excellent posting on the Dayton area, so I'll try to offer some thoughts that don't duplicate his. I can't recommend any other Dayton maps that are easy to find and show much detailed rail info. In other words, even though I'm FROM there, know railfans there, and model the PRR there, I've never yet put my hands on a really decent map of the Pennsy trackage there. So your 1907 map probably puts you way ahead. Certainly, you're going to want an employee timetable (ETT); something like the PRR Western Region Timetable No. 5 dated Oct 30, 1966 from which I'm working. Of course, your employee timetable needs to be late 1940s or early 1950s to retain steam in the Dayton area. Don't be afraid to tap local libraries and historical societies. And talk to the railfans, especially the Miami Valley Railfans. Also, ask Gene Smith at Dayton Model Railways which railfans and modelers might be helpful. Because these comments are lengthy, I'll break this posting up into four transmissions: 1) DAYTON's RAILROADS 2) PRR XENIA to DAYTON 3) DAYTON to RICHMOND 4) CL&N and the narrow gauge First, some basics about the railroads in Dayton: DAYTON'S RAILROADS The Pennsy was one of four railroad systems in the Dayton area. All these roads used the Dayton Union Terminal Company to pass through downtown: The DUT carried 1) The New York Central/formerly CCC&StL (nickname Big Four). The route through Dayton forked off the Cleveland - Indianapolis main at BURT tower in Galion OH. It passed through Columbus, Springfield, and Fairborn, entered Dayton along the north side of Wright Field, and used DUT to cross the Miami River on its way to Cincinnati. Yards at FINDLAY STREET (East Dayton Yard) and at MORAINE (Moraine City, along the east side of I-75). 2) The Baltimore & Ohio/formerly CH&D (Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton) which ran Toledo-Lima-Piqua, came from the north through NEEDMORE ROAD YARD, passed Chrysler Airtemp, crossed the Miami once near Keowee Street to enter downtown Dayton, and used DUT to exit again on its way to Middletown, Hamilton, and Cincinnati. Yards at NEEDMORE ROAD, FINDLAY STREET (roundhouse at streetside) and SOUTH DAYTON (in the West End). The B&O also had trackage rights west on the Pennsy to Dodson, where a branch headed northwest to Union City. This B&O branch was earlier called the Dayton & Union RR (not to be confused with the Dayton Union Railway that operated Dayton Union Station). This D&U was freight-only long ago. Also, B&O's Wellston Subdivision skirted the northeast corner of town on its way to Xenia. The Wellston Sub may have carried passengers in the 50s, reaching the Sub from the station via track through EAST DAYTON yard. 3) The Erie Lackawanna/former Erie/former Atlantic Great Western. Erie's Dayton Branch ran Marion OH to Dayton. Erie's Dayton Branch ran side-by-side with the Big Four from Springfield (COLD SPRINGS tower) through Fairborn to FINDLAY STREET at Dayton, and the two tracks were operated as a double track railroad long before WWII. The Erie's EAST DAYTON yard was sandwiched between the NYC yard on the north (along Monument Avenue), and the B&O EAST DAYTON yard. All three of these yards stretched from FINDLAY STREET west toward downtown and a lot of ancient industrial spurs in the area of the old canal bed. I have no idea how early the Erie abandoned passenger service to Dayton, but in the early 70s it was still bringing freight into town, mostly for interchange with the B&O. This B&O interchange is the result of some history -- at some time, the Erie owned the now-B&O line to Cincinnati, and ran 6-foot gauge rolling stock over it. Sometime back in history, the Erie sold this Dayton-Cincinnati line to the CH&D, and the agreement required 200 cars (a day? a week?) interchange to the Erie. The CH&D became part of the B&O, but this heavy interchange continued. 4) The Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR 1921)/former Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis (PCC&StL Railway 1890, PCC&StL Railroad 1916/former Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, & St. Louis 1868. Locally, the Pennsy was referred to as "the Panhandle". The main line came in from Xenia, and departed west for Richmond, Indianapolis, and St. Louis. The Pennsy also owned and operated was left of the once-narrow gauge Cincinnati, Lebanon, & Northern (CL&N, acquired 1896). These remnants had once extended to Cincinnati. DAYTON UNION RAILWAY COMPANY PRR and the other local roads ran through downtown Dayton on the Dayton Union Railway Co. Almost the entire DU was grade-separated above city streets, a combination of earthen embankments and reinforced concrete walls. This multiple-track plant ran on an elevation project from the east end of town through Dayton Union Station and to the riverbank (Great Miami River). I'd bet most of this "great concrete wall" is still in. Signaling on the DU used PRR position light signals and PRR signal bridges. UNION STATION ITSELF The Dayton Union Station of the grand age was a 3 story Italianate building, with a "campanile" (prominent clock tower). When built (1900), it served trains at the first story level. However, when the elevation project was built (1931), passengers walked from the first floor waiting room, via a passage under the tracks, and up stairs to the platforms. There are some neat pictures of the station and the elevation project in Dayton - a history in photographs published by the Junior League of Dayton (see p 63 and p 98). When (late 60s?) the station building was leveled, the portion of the concourse left under the tracks got a spartan but modernized white tile front carrying the lettering "Dayton Union Station". Dayton used to be a center for magazine printing, including Collier's, Saturday Evening Post, McCall's, and US News and World Report. The printing plants would truck their output over to the station, where baggage cars and express boxes (yea, X-29s) were loaded on a couple of tracks on the north side of the passenger platforms. These stub-end tracks were switched from the west end and served from street level by freight elevators. These express cars can be found as scheduled movements. For example, in listings of PRR passenger consists, we may find a B60 listed for the Dallas carload of the Saturday Evening Post leaving each Tuesday on #13 to St. Louis). I've been told there was a roundhouse northwest of the station (whose?). The west throat of Dayton Union Station had a handy place for a photographer under some trees just short of the 3-span Great Miami River bridge (a heavy through- truss PRR-like structure, painted in PRR black). On the south side of the DUS plant stood Dayton Power & Light's Longworth Street Steam Plant, whose stream of inbound L&N coal hoppers were switched from this west end. And a very sharp curve here connected the "Lebanon branch" on the riverbank (see CL&N below) onto the main crossing the bridge. You can probably still find area railfans talking about standing "under the trees" and taking pictures of the east-west traffic from the 30s to today. Along the east throat of Union Station, on the north side, there stood Lowe Brothers Paint factory. I remember the south (railroad) side of this building painted in a red that wasn't Tuscan, and wasn't faded Tuscan, but wasn't exactly pink either. Boxcars on tracks down at street level, plus tank car unloading facilities, made this an interesting modeling subject. It seems reasonable that somewhere, track charts of the DUS and an employee timetable must exist, but I don't have them. See you soon. Next time we'll start in Xenia. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:09:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Columbus Div PRR track Chart...1938 ***For Sweet Ole Bob and the rest... Here is a Lines West Track Chart for Ya !!! Ebay # 44737635, Col Division 1938 when there were some tracks left !!?? Since I am only qualified to Cresson, I will let you guys have at it. But..Thanks for all the LW Info, I learned more last year here than decades before, Thx to Tom, Randy, Barry, etc.etc....Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:43:30 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FM Erie Builts Greetings, Yes, the PRR had "Erie-Built", or simply, "Eries"--36 A-units and 12 B-units, built 1947-48. They were originally class FP20 but changed to FF20 when they were converted to freight gearing. I can't find a roste at the moment, but they were numbered 945_ and up. Chuck Friedlein locoshop@juno.com wrote: > > Hello, > > Wondered if PRR had any Fairbanks-Morse Eirei Built units and if so how > many? Thanks. > > Jeremy Helms > Omaha, Nebraska > locoshop@juno.com > (no web access) > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 02:32:29 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Tower I know of at least one other extant tower in Pennsylvania (not PRR but in PA) the Erie's Meadville coaling tower is still standing (maybe not for long from what I hear but it is still standing) On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, Greg Stone wrote: > Does anyone know of any other coaling towers still extant in Pa, or a PRR > coaling tower anywhere else, other than the one mentioned before on the PRR > talk and the one at Renovo. > The one at Renovo needs support from people interested in its > preservation. This tower I have read and believe is the most complete > coaling tower existing in Pa. It still has most of its hardware. The chute > extensions are gone and some other pieces are missing such as three pulley > wheels. However there is still one of those pulleys and several others on > her which could be used for a pattern. The chutes extensions could be > rebuilt so that she would be almost complete. I don't know if the bucket is > down below because the pit beneath is filled with water. > By chance does anyone have any blueprints on this tower or a similar > one. There is an effort on the part of the Clinton County Economic > Partnership to preserve the tower. > If we could gather information, photos and show an interest I believe the > CCEP would go a lot further towards completing this goal. They seem to have > some money although I believe a contribution by others would greatly > encourage them. I know they are disappointed with local support. > Anyone interested you may contact me directly. > Greg Stone > GAS@fastinet.net > PRRTHS member > interested in ANY photos or info on the renovo yards > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is > BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: Monthly special from "Merchandise Service" is BP20 Passenger Sharks in HO scale! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] BP60 Info Needed Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 06:47:59 -0500 From: Jerry Remember that locomotive survey? 8-) I've got a diesel manufacturer who wants to seriously delve into creating the BP60 Centipedes!!! To protect their interests and to prevent them from becoming inundated with direct requests, etc. (a la Liberty Model Productions), I am acting as a sort of "front" for them. No, don't ask, I won't tell you who they are! Anyway, I am seeking detailed elevation plans that anyone might have for these units. Of particular interest, of course, is the drive train. (I believe I have the Painting and Lettering diagrams in a Pennsy Journal or Rails Northeast issue, somewhere.) Please contact me ASAP and off-list if you have anything you think would be of help. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Re: [railnfan] Pennsylvania R.R. Question Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:21:17 -0500 (EST) E1607@aol.com scrivit: > > The Pennsylvania Railroad had a line running north out of Toledo Junction > through Carrothers and Tiffen, and then into Toledo. Apparently, this was a > busy line as it was partially double-tracked, signaled and at one time had 4 > passenger trains each way. The question is....does this line still exist and > if so - to whom does it belong? > Perhaps someone on this list knows, or will know someone who does. Thanks for > your help. > > Bob Bob, the part of the line from Toledo Junction (west of Mansfield) to Carrothers was abandoned by PRR when they decided (in the 50s, I believe) to run out to Colsan, then up their Sandusky Branch to Carrothers. The Sandusky Line was sold to N&W when in 1964 PRR decided to court NYC instead of N&W/WAB. We have regretted that decision ever since. >From Carrothers to Toledo was all Conrail until recently. Conrail still owns the northern stretch, which will be passing to CSX; the southern stretch is owned by a short line whose name I cannot now recall. This was the old PRR Toledo Division, a 2-track main line hosting the _Red Arrow_ to Detroit. Maps of it are progressively going up on http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:30:33 -0500 From: "Wayne F. Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [PRR] Coaling Towers --------------EDBF371FD4A961873C16805B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to the coaling towers, I was born in Renovo in 1953 and my parents born and raised in Renovo. I remember the steam engines and the coaling tower. It is an impressive sight and still stands today. The Renovo Record, their local paper, did a story on the tower and the need for support in the wednesday October 30, 1996 edition. It stated that they were looking for support for a new Heritage Park and that the coaling tower would be the focal point. They needed letters of support for the project. I am not sure how much they received. I go back to Renovo many times a year and the tower is still there with the shops in the background. It is a shame, their is not much support for the railroad that built that town. i have timetable and P.R.R. rules dated 1948 form the Williamsport Division if any one is interested. That was a great area for railroading Check out this link. http://cub.kcnet.org/~ssmith1/renovo.htm You get a good birds eye view of the shops and what was the Railroad yard. --------------EDBF371FD4A961873C16805B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to the coaling towers, I was born in Renovo in 1953 and my parents born and raised in Renovo. I remember the steam engines and the coaling tower. It is an impressive sight and still stands today. The Renovo Record, their local paper, did a story on the tower and the need for support in the wednesday October 30, 1996 edition. It stated that they were looking for support for a new Heritage Park and that the coaling tower would be the focal point. They needed letters of support for the project. I am not sure how much they received. I go back to Renovo many times a year and the tower is still there with the shops in the background. It is a shame, their is not much support for the railroad that built that town.

i have timetable and P.R.R. rules dated 1948 form the Williamsport Division if any one is interested. That was a great area for railroading

Check out this link.

http://cub.kcnet.org/~ssmith1/renovo.htm

You get a good birds eye view of the shops and what was the Railroad yard.
  --------------EDBF371FD4A961873C16805B-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:06:05 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops, water troughs >After they tanked >a full load of water, and retracted the scoop the Engineer congratulated the >Fireman and asked "how did you know it would fit?" The Fireman replied with a >horrified look - he'd never considered that angle ! > Actually, given the constaints of the distance between the rails, >it was >pretty likely that the "Red" and "Green" standards would not be to much >different - and I never considered that there would be an AAR or Master Hi all, One difference between the "red' and the "green" was that the PRR did not have overflow devices on many (any?) tenders, and this restricted the speed in track pans to 45 mph, whereas the NYC was apparently able to "hit the pans" at 60 mph. For modelers, you should note that there were specific markers alongside the tracks that indicated the start, middle, and end of the pans. Has anyone on the list modeled track pans? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Tower Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:01:52 -0500 (EST) > On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, Greg Stone wrote: > > > Does anyone know of any other coaling towers still extant in Pa, or a PRR > > coaling tower anywhere else, other than the one mentioned before on the PRR > > talk and the one at Renovo. Youngstown has always confused the hell out of me, particularly as I am not posessed of a period (i.e. 1960 or back) USGS topo map. However, I _suspect_ that the coaling tower standing there is of PRR heritage. The pipe-style handrails on nearby bridges would tend to give this away; however, I'm being cautious, as _several_ parallel or largely parallel rights-of-way ran through Y-town. Is Hagerstown's still standing? I passed by there over the weekend, but not through the city proper. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Remains of the Denholm coal wharf Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 11:52:50 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/30/98 12:47 PM, George Pierson (George.Pierson@trnty.edu) wrote: >In a recent conversation, a friend of mine suggested that the Kovalcik >scrap yard in Lewistown, PA held remains of the coaling wharf at Denholm, >on the PRR Middle Div. The wharf was torn down c.1960. Anyone know about >this? What "remains" would there be? Wasn't the structure concrete? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 11:47:06 CST Subject: [PRR] Remains of the Denholm coal wharf Hi, all, In a recent conversation, a friend of mine suggested that the Kovalcik scrap yard in Lewistown, PA held remains of the coaling wharf at Denholm, on the PRR Middle Div. The wharf was torn down c.1960. Anyone know about this? Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Erie Built dynamic brakes? Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:41:41 -0500 Hi all! Just reading the postings about PRR Eries, and was curious about the mention of dynamic brakes. With C-Liners it's obvious whether the unit has dynamics or not, by the presence or absence of the round roof fan and roof top grills beside it, just behind the cab. But I can't think of what the dynamics on an Erie Built look like. They didn't have the same arrangement, did they? I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one that showed any dynamics. Can someone educate me? Thanks Pat ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 11:44:48 CST Subject: [PRR] Operating Huletts... Hi, all, This is at the fringe of PRR topics but here goes. This past Friday I did some exploring in the industrila areas of Chicago's south side and hit what for me is the jackpot. I had known that the LTV Steel Corp had two Hulett unloaders at their plant east of the Calumet River. I had also gotten reports that they were still in operation. Well, I finally found a way to safely and I think leagally get to the west bank of the Calumet Friday morning and watched both Huletts unloading coal barges for the next half hour. It was a great view - they were only about 150 yds away, and the sounds and sights were amazing. Although it appeared that there was rr track under them to load hoppers, none were in evidence and the coal was being dumped into a large holding area behind the Huletts, over which ran two BIG traveling cranes, a la the ones that once ran at Whiskey Island in Cleveland. The PRR connection? Other than these the last Huletts were those at the C& P docks in Cleveland, served by the PRR, but they are now out of service. Have they been scrapped yet? Whatever, these LTV monsters are probably the last operating Huletts in the world. BTW I believe the "hot metal train" on former PRR tracks operates out of this plant. If you love the machinery of America's industrial past, you might want to catch these two Huletts while they are still around. I got to the river by driving along Torrance Ave. to the Acme Coke plant (about 115 th St. south). Just opposite the coke plant office is an entrance on the east side of Torrence to a large gravel dump. There are gates but they were wide open and I drove a regular sedan in safely. No one was around and the view from the river bank was great. Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops, water troughs Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 10:37:40 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/30/98 10:06 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >One difference between the "red' and the "green" was that the PRR did not >have overflow devices on many (any?) tenders, and this restricted the speed >in track pans to 45 mph, whereas the NYC was apparently able to "hit the >pans" at 60 mph. At least "some" tenders had overflows. There are photos of them at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. They are openings on the top rear of the tender, in the area of the water hatch. After seeing them at the museum, I re-viewed many of my videos that show locos taking on water. Besides the wall of water spraying outward as they take on water, near the end of the pans you'll often see geysers of water spraying upwards from the tender. This is the result of the overflow. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:33:09 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (2) Dave, Here's some railfan notes on the PRR from Xenia to Dayton: XENIA OHIO XENIA (MP 54.7 from Columbus, MP 0 from Xenia, a station and an interlocking) Originally (1845), the Little Miami passed through here from Cincinnati to Springfield. The Little Miami reached Springfield in 1946, where it formed a through connection to the East via the Mad River & Lake Erie (later NYC). But soon the bulk of traffic ran toward Columbus on the Columbus & Xenia. Soon, the Dayton Xenia & Belpre connected Dayton to the Little Miami's empire at Xenia. Note that the Little Miami controlled the Columbus & Xenia from the outset, and quickly acquired control of the DX&B (and its western connection the Dayton & Western). Starting in 1868, all these lines were leased to and operated by a succession of PRR affiliates (PC&StL, PCC&StL), each nicknamed "the Panhandle". As time passed, Pennsy had a tendency to rebuild lines to handle increased traffic: - By the thirties or forties, upgrading had doubletracked all the mileage from Columbus to Xenia. - Xenia to Cincinnati was single track (outside Xenia), but with a number of passing sidings. This line to Cincinnati (the original Little Miami) carried heavy traffic on an easy, water level grade, and its original ironwork bridges now had heavy steelwork. - Xenia to Dayton (the DX&B) stayed single track, heavy rail, but with no passing sidings between SHAWNEE and CLEMENT. - Xenia to Springfield (the Springfield Branch) got along with light rail and antique bridges, as little traffic moved up and down the branch. There just wasn't much urgency to getting the track out of North Detroit Street, where train movements continued to threaten the fenders of cars parked on the east side of the street. Opinion: if there's anything more picturesque than street running, it's street running past a county courthouse with a Fairbanks-Morse switcher. Curiously, the way the physical plant at Xenia was laid out, the lines to Cincinnati and Columbus line up end-to-end like one continuous double-track railroad, with the Springfield branch and the DX&B taking off from the north side. This track layout probably reflects the fact that Cincinnati traffic was heavy and had to come this way, whereas Indianapolis/St. Louis freights west from Columbus could be diverted around Xenia and Dayton. Notice that the Miami Valley at Dayton was much lower than the surrounding country, and the grades going through Dayton were a severe operating problem, especially in steam days. The available bypass was on an easier-grade routing on the Columbus-Urbana-Piqua-Bradford line then returning to the Indianapolis main via a Bradford-New Paris cutoff. Mileposts in this area are curious, too, and reinforce the bypass-Dayton idea. On the line from Columbus to Xenia, milepost zero is at Columbus, and this sequence continues through Xenia (MP 54.7) to Cincinnati (Cincinnati Union Terminal, MP 125.1). The DX&B starts a new series at Xenia (MP 0.0), that runs west through Dayton (MP16.0) and to New Paris (MP51.7). However, where the cutoff comes in from Bradford, the mileposts are from Columbus via the Logansport line. Thus, by this route, mileposts are Columbus Union Depot (MP 0) to Bradford (MP 83.1) to New Paris (MP 113.8) to Richmond IN (MP 119.6) to Indianapolis (MP 187.9) to St. Louis (MP 239.0). The St. Louis passenger and mail trains, of course, ran through Dayton. So they saw mileposts from Pittsburgh start at 0 and go to 190.7 (Columbus Union Depot). Then mileposts started again at zero and increased to Xenia (54.7). Then mileposts started again at zero and increased to 51.7 at New Paris. Finally, mileposts started at 113.8 at New Paris and increased to 239.0 at St. Louis. Confused yet? I'm sure it was all part of the day's work on the Columbus-Indianapolis passenger runs. Until the Cold War, Xenia was a center of rope manufacture. This included really big rope, like the kind that moors Navy ships to the dock. For example, Hooven & Allison's factory buildings ("rope walks" in antique usage) lay just south of the Cincinnati main. Reading from south to north, we might see: - Hooven & Allison buildings, brick with gray trim - B&O Wellston Subdivision that just crossed the Cincinnati main at two-story frame GREENE tower (Xenia is the county seat of Greene County Ohio). - Double track Cincinnati main (jointed rail to the end, I believe) - Truly ancient brick buildings associated with Xenia engine terminal, covered with ivy. - Two tracks for storing two GP9-and-caboose sets for locals (before late 60s, assigned power was almost certainly H10-44's by Fairbanks-Morse). - Open space that could have had roundhouse/turntable - Westbound PRR main to Dayton, curving off to the north. - Xenia residential neighborhood. Moving a little east on the Cincinnati main, we might see (south to north) - old stone wall where north side of a hill was cut away. Houses atop the hill. - B&O Wellston Subdivision paralleling PRR main - Lead going east to PRR freight house (freight platform is stone, not wood) - Double track Cincinnati main - Platform and site of original Little Miami station (a long but narrow mansard-roofed three story brick) - Diamond (grade crossing) at north edge of platform where Dayton line and Springfield line cross. -more Xenia residential neighborhood, including a bar or greasy spoon that faced the station area. Farther east yet, the platform narrows as the Dayton line comes into the line from Cincinnati. Close to the end of the platform was a two-story office building that served as the interlocking tower, the freight agency, and the yard office. This structure was probably built brick, but in later years was remodeled with a concrete or plaster coating (smooth stucco?). One of its remodelings moved the passenger station functions into its first floor, allowing the old passenger station to be razed. Hopefully, the Xenia historical exhibit has modeled all this and more, so it's clearer than my description. THE PRR FROM XENIA TO DAYTON (Dayton Xenia & Belpre, or DX&B) SHAWNEE (MP 1.5 from Xenia) The DX&B line curved north through the west side of Xenia, and then turned west again to a passing siding at SHAWNEE (good luck finding this site). The line then follows watercourses roughly west, past a site where famous Shawnee chief Blackfish was buried, through TREBEIN, and on through ALPHA. TREBEIN (MP 3.9) A grain elevator and the Miami Fertilizer Company where old US 35 crossed to the north side of the PRR main. According to my 1966 ETT, the mill track here was forbidden to GG1's, P5a's, and several other electric locomotives, presumably because of light rail . The name Trebein reflects the Mennonite and Brethren flavor of farming immigrants around here - not quite Amish, but definitely German pacifist. The B&O Wellston branch ran alongside the PRR through here, looking like double track except that the south track had much lighter rail. The close track spacing created a signal clearance problem, which was solved by a cantilevered signal bridge with a position light. Cantilevered signal bridges are rare on the PRR, especially on "Lines West". ALPHA (MP 5.3) One of the first towns founded north of Cincinnati (and even older than Dayton), much of Alpha's 200 dwellings were wiped out by a fire long ago, but a few houses from its Victorian period survive. The B&O eases off around the south side of town, leaving room on the Pennsy for a metal-sheathed grain elevator, the Alpha Seed & Grain Company. At some time, this business also sold coal, with the piles at the west end of the elevator spur. The Alpha station and the elevator's spur (trailing point eastbound) are long gone, but I am told the elevator has recently had its paint and lettering restored. Freight tariffs also mention two lumberyards at Alpha, one named P&H Lumber in the 70s. ZIMMERMAN (MP 8.0) The village of Zimmerman (more German farm families) is up a steep hill north of the tracks. B&O Wellston Sub still clings to the south side of the Pennsy, as does a major creek. I have seen pictures of a B&O wreck IN that creek. On the north side stands Daytona Mills (or Belden Milling Company, depending on the era), a grain milling operation that seems to have transitioned from farm animal feeds to garden supplies for suburbanites. From here westbound to CLEMENT, there is a climb up an approximately 1% grade. This was a favorite place for underpowered trains to hang up; I was there the day a westbound PC freight stalled with a C430 and a GP20 dead, and only an F7B still running. The freight had to be pushed into Dayton by the passenger train behind it, in order to reach a passing track. CLEMENT (MP 12.3 from Xenia, block station controlled from DAYTON) The PRR line from Xenia enters Dayton via a block station called CLEMENT. This is perhaps the most insignificant point ever named for a PRR president (Martin W. Clement). So far as I can tell, there was no tower at CLEMENT; by the time I found it, it was a pair of silver relay cases guarding the east end of Clement Yard. Clement Yard was probably never more than 8 tracks wide. In steam years, Clement Yard stood at the top of a long helper grade coming east out of the Miami Valley, and of course it is also at the top of a 1% coming west. Clement's situation is as if the D&W's locating engineer had found very favorable waterlevel grades west from Xenia until past Zimmerman (he had), and then had to concentrate all the grade around Clement to get over the hump to Dayton. In the early 60s, Clement was an industrial yard switched by FM H10-44's, which smoked attractively. By the early 1970s, the FMs were gone, there were no structures standing or hints of engine service facilities, and Clement was mostly a storage yard for X64 boxcars that had been designed by NYC's marketing department for Frigidaire use. These 60 foot appliance high cubes (smooth sides with single 10' wide Youngstown door) were tall enough to load refrigerators. But they were delivered in 2-69 after the merger, painted PC green with white worm heralds, and PC classified them X64. NARROW GAUGE AT CLEMENT Two other rail lines were once found at the east end of CLEMENT and Clement Yard. Coming from the south and curving into the east end of the yard was a former narrow-gauge line that reached here from Cincinnati. In 1966 this PRR industrial branch was called the "Clement-Hempstead Industrial Track" (see Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern below). The other line, the B&O Wellston Subdivision, followed the Pennsy from Xenia, paralleling it through TREBEIN , ALPHA, and ZIMMERMAN. It then ran on a separate right-of-way along the north side of Patterson Road until it crossed Woodman Drive and met the Clement- Hempstead Industrial Track, where it swung north and paralleled it to Clement. At the east end of Clement Yard, just about under CLEMENT, it dived under the Pennsy main and headed north for B&O's Needmore Yard. This B&O branch also started life as a 3' narrow gauge road. Like many other old underpasses in the midwest, the Pennsy's small deck girder bridge over the Wellston Subdivision wasn't built to clear high cubes. And as in other spots from time to time, the locals tell of a high cube that got its roof peeled off here, distributing empty plastic milk jugs all over the neighborhood. THE SLIDE At the west end of Clement yard lies Smithville Road, with a Dayton Power & Light transformer yard and (once upon a time) a period-style blue and yellow tiled Sunoco service station operated by a neighbor of mine. From here, the PRR line drops into the Miami Valley on an approx. 1% grade through residential and industrial neighborhoods. The line started out in a cut and, before the bottom was running on a substantial fill that topped the 3rd story of factories. Even though only 1%, this long ramp was the eastbound ruling grade for Pennsy traffic from St. Louis to Columbus, forcing eastbound tonnage trains to use helpers, or else bypass Dayton via New Paris, Bradford, Piqua, and Urbana. DUTOIT STREET (MP 14.6 from Xenia, interlocking controlled from DAYTON) The grade bottoms out at a grade crossing at Fifth Street, and the PRR main line passes a named point called DUTOIT STREET, which may have had a small yard or the location of a team track. WAYNE AVENUE JUNCTION (MP 15.4, interlocking controlled from DAYTON). This Xenia line meets DUS at WAYNE AVENUE JUNCTION and is already elevated there, but a ramp track on the south side went west to such traffic generators as: 1) Industrial Chemical Company, one of the brick multistory industrial concerns on the PRR's south side. ICC was interesting because a track curved across the street and entered the building's front, still curving. 2) PRR's freight house, lying south of the DUS elevation. DAYTON (MP16.0) This is the station itself, on Dayton Union property. Downstairs was the waiting room, and I'm told also a dispatcher's office to handle traffic by CTC machine. I don't know if this CTC machine was US&S. I also don't know why this dispatcher/operator was known as DE, although this might have been his telegraphic call letters. Upstairs, the station had platforms serving 6 through tracks (plus the two express-loading stubs). A baggage elevator stood above the platform roofs at the east and west ends of each of the three passenger platforms, with steps down to the concourse in between. Freights ran on two tracks along the south side. West of the station proper, the elevation plant was a wide dirt embankment continuing toward "the trees" and the east end of the doubletrack Great Miami River bridge. Next time - west from Dayton Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:10:59 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Tower Mark Bej wrote: > > Youngstown has always confused the hell out of me, particularly as I am not > posessed of a period (i.e. 1960 or back) USGS topo map. However, I _suspect_ > that the coaling tower standing there is of PRR heritage. The pipe-style > handrails on nearby bridges would tend to give this away; however, I'm being > cautious, as _several_ parallel or largely parallel rights-of-way ran through > Y-town. If you're speaking of Youngstown, Ohio ... and the nice sized coaling tower there, I believe it's of B&O heritage. -=D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:53:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [MEMRA] Fwd: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (I) Correction (Like Michael J. Fox, I'm a "young" Parkinsonian. when you see mistakes like this, its usually because my compulsion to post overcomes the rigidity of my muscles.) Item on the CL&N should read: While the PRR purchased the CL&N in 1896, two years after the CL&N completed widening to standard gauge (with help of PRR financing), the CL&N did NOT purchase the Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati RR & Terminal Co., until 1912. The DL&C was builder and original operator of the line north of Dodds in Warren County including the branch to Clement which intersected with the B&O Wellston sub and what became the mainline serving DESC, NCR and the PRR freight Depot. In 1916 the CL&N was made part of the PRR's disjointed Pennsylvania, Ohio & Detroit RR. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:27:41 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Remains of the Denholm coal wharf Here in Buffalo (atually Cheektowaga) are the remains of a DL&W coal "trestle" which was used by bottom dumping coal cars to dump their loads out the chutes on the bottom. The structure burned if I remember correctly and the only remains are the concrete "legs" of it that look like some kind of weird alien statue back in the woods behind the Town of Cheektowaga office complex. On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > On 11/30/98 12:47 PM, George Pierson (George.Pierson@trnty.edu) wrote: > > >In a recent conversation, a friend of mine suggested that the Kovalcik > >scrap yard in Lewistown, PA held remains of the coaling wharf at Denholm, > >on the PRR Middle Div. The wharf was torn down c.1960. Anyone know about > >this? > > What "remains" would there be? Wasn't the structure concrete? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on > special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:02:50 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops, water troughs Hi All, "Has anyone on the list modeled track pans?" Well, not yet. Were there any track pans on the Pittsburgh Division? If so I would definately have to model them. Thanks, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:24:58 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR T-5 electric?? The current issue of Model Railroader says that No. 1 Vol. 1 of Model Railroader publisher plans for "... a Pennsylvania RR T-5 electric...". I've not heard of a T-5 before, has anyone out there? (I am wondering if the R-1 started out in life as T-5, which would make sense, sort of.) === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops, water troughs Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:20:33 PST Indeed, one of the hazards associated with scooping water on the fly was the water pressure built up in the tank. Without overflow relief valves, as the NYC apparently had, too much speed could cause the rivets and welds to pop and burst the water tank (cistern, to the traditionalists). I read this was part of lessons learned during water scoop technology developmental testing. I'd sure like to have seen that just once. Better'n a great big water balloon dropped from the third floor, I can tell you. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. >One difference between the "red' and the "green" was that the PRR did not >have overflow devices on many (any?) tenders, and this restricted the speed >in track pans to 45 mph, whereas the NYC was apparently able to "hit the >pans" at 60 mph. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:00:55 -0600 I believe that "Thrumph 1" has some photographs and information on track pans. Bill Laird > -----Original Message----- > From: PRRMAN@aol.com [SMTP:PRRMAN@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 4:42 AM > To: wsbcos@cris.com; jbreon@email.msn.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs > > In a message dated 98-11-28 15:11:11 EST, wsbcos@cris.com writes: > > << but I think that an article was publsihed about track > pans not too long ago - I could be wrong. >> > > It was the Keystone or the High Line, probably the former. > I currently can't go upstairs and dig through the files, but I > believe it was within the past 5 years. > > Rich Copeland > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:32:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Tower In a message dated 98-11-30 10:09:39 EST, you write: > Youngstown has always confused the hell out of me, particularly as I am not > posessed of a period (i.e. 1960 or back) USGS topo map. However, I _suspect_ > > that the coaling tower standing there is of PRR heritage. The pipe-style > handrails on nearby bridges would tend to give this away; however, I'm being > cautious, as _several_ parallel or largely parallel rights-of-way ran > through > Y-town. The tower in Youngstown was joint PRR and Lake Erie and Eastern, a terminal road which started at the tower and went to Struthers, ending at Graham Interlocking. I believe it was built when the LE&E was built, around 1912. There were no engine facilites there, just coal, sand and water. Rick Rowlands Youngstown, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:10:33 EST Subject: [PRR] Removal of Athearn Motor Hi Gang, I'm in the process of building one of the Miracle Castings BP-20's and I've reached the point where I have to remove the motor from the Athearn chassis. What is the correct procedure for accomplishing this task? Do I just beat on the motor mount pads from the bottom side, or what? I've got another, unrelated question. I've decided that I would like to join a club and I was wondering how might be the best way to transport my 'stuff' to and fro. Does anyone make a commercially built, segmented, foam rubber lined container for such a purpose or do I have to build one myself? Thanks for any and all help, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 13:45:22 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/30/98 12:00 PM, Laird, Bill (Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: > I believe that "Thrumph 1" has some photographs and information on >track pans. Yes. Includes some dimensional data and close up photos. Seem to recall a Keystone article also. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:39:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Tower In a message dated 98-11-30 12:27:55 EST, you write: > If you're speaking of Youngstown, Ohio ... and the nice sized coaling tower > there, > I believe it's of B&O heritage. > > -=D Actually, the track arrangement at Liberty Street viaduct (the bridge just north of the tower) went like this from east to west: 2 track Erie mainline 2 track old B&O mainline (pre 1905) two track PY&A (PRR) accrossed the river was the single track Youngstown & Northern Railroad and two tracks of the B&0 mainline (built 1905) Not including sidings etc. The B&O old mains were on a lower level than the coaling tower. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Winter '98 Keystone Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 14:54:49 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Just got the Winter '98 Keystone in my mailbox. Here's (very) quick rundown of the contents: Hand Lanterns of the PRR part 2 The Last Gasp (Union Transportation Company) 100 Years Ago on the PRR Susquehanna, Pride of the Fish Commisson Help from Above (Mc Keen cars) Pennsylvania Steel, 1867-1916 Rockville Bridge Under the PRR - A Capsule History Union Junction and B&P Junction Towers A where is it now page on the Libertas (PRR Limited of 1898 Obs car) Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:04:15 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T-5 electric?? >The current issue of Model Railroader says that No. 1 >Vol. 1 of Model Railroader publisher plans for "... a >Pennsylvania RR T-5 electric...". > >I've not heard of a T-5 before, has anyone out there? Nope, Bet its a typo...lets try L-5 or P-5 (I'm betting on P-5 'cause "P" sounds like "T" ). Since the R-1 predates the T-1 by quite a few years, it is unlikely that this is an early name for the R-1. Happy Electric Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:38:40 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] Payroll Cars Hi all, I got this question from a visitor to my web site. Can anyone on the list help? Please make sure you forward replies to Roy as I don't think he's on the list. Thanks! Rob FORWARDED MESSAGE: Subject: Payroll cars Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:57:07 -0600 From: Roy Plotnick To: robs@railfan.net Do you have any information on PRR payroll cars? I am especially interested in photos or drawings. Thanks -Roy Plotnick Roy E. Plotnick Professor Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences University of Illinois at Chicago 845 W. Taylor St. Chicago, IL 60607 plotnick@uic.edu phone: 312-996-2111 fax: 312-413-2279 web page: http://www.uic.edu/depts/geos/plotnick.htm "The scientific celebrities, forgetting their molluscs and glacial periods, gossiped about art, while devoting themselves to oysters and ices with characteristic energy.." -Little Women, Louisa May Alcott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops, water troughs Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 13:47:16 -0500 From: Jerry On 12/1/98 1:02 AM, Ron Dugas (rond@efn.org) wrote: >"Has anyone on the list modeled track pans?" > >Well, not yet. Were there any track pans on the Pittsburgh Division? If >so I would definately have to model them. PRRMO member Joe Gotaskie, Phoenixville, Pa., had planned to model the track pans at Wilmore, on the west slope. Don't know if he ever pursued or not. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:17:26 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Huletts... At 11:44 AM 11/30/98 CST, George Pierson wrote: > > Other than these the last Huletts were those at the C& >P docks in Cleveland, served by the PRR, but they are now out of service. >Have they been scrapped yet? George: As of last Wednesday (11/25/98), they were still sitting on the bluff at Whiskey Island. Bob Rothrock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:26:15 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T-5 electric?? I just dug out my reprint Vol I of MR - the plans are of the P-5 and the O-1, and are identified as such in the accompanyuing article. The T-1 reference may be a a typo. Steve Bartlett Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > >The current issue of Model Railroader says that No. 1 > >Vol. 1 of Model Railroader publisher plans for "... a > >Pennsylvania RR T-5 electric...". > > > >I've not heard of a T-5 before, has anyone out there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:29:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Operating Huletts... Whiskey Island Huletts are still there = and there are attempts to save them. Conrail is not keen on the idea - N&S (or CSX) will probably be even less so - as it's necessary to cross the LS&MS main line to view them Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:23:48 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (3) Dave, I'm glad you asked your question about Dayton. The more I dig, the more material I'm uncovering. Hope a little of it is helpful to you. Part 3:THE PRR DAYTON TO RICHMOND (Dayton & Western, or D&W) MIAMI CITY JCT. (MP 16.6, interlocking controlled from DAYTON) I never heard of it as a Dayton-area resident, but it sounds like the area west of the Miami River used to be called Miami City, much in the same way that the Columbus OH neighborhood west of the Scioto River was originally incorporated as Franklintown. Once across the Miami River, the Dayton Union double track ran west along Germantown Street for a few heavily industrialized blocks to MIAMI CITY JUNCTION, where 1) the NYC/Big Four heads south for Moraine Yard, West Carrollton, Middletown, and Cincinnati. 2) The B&O/CH&D heads south for Middletown, Hamilton, and Cincinnati. 3) The Pennsy (nee Dayton & Western) heads northwest. The first few blocks of this route still had elevated crossing shacks in the early 70s, painted PRR's light umber and dark umber tints. Trains were restricted to 25 mph while crossing these streets. Like a lot of these "remote" interlockings, the tower at MIAMI CITY JUNCTION is long gone. The only building I caught here was a small shack painted in New York Central's "green on green" scheme. MIAMI CITY STATION (MP ?) Just north of 3rd Street, MIAMI CITY STATION is shown on a 1925 map of "Railroads & Railroad Facilities for Dayton Ohio" dated June 30, 1925. I had forgotten all about this map, which is reproduced in the Houck book on page 203. Looks like it stood on the "south" side of the track, with some sidings on the other side of the main. WOLF CREEK (MP 17.7, interlocking controlled from DAYTON) Switches here accessed the Dayton Tire & Rubber Company, which lay on the south side of the tracks. There was a water plug here. In the 1966 ETT, it is referred to as "Water Station, Wolf Creek", which reminds us that on the railroad, place names often survive long after the reason for them disappears. Its concrete base and drain were still in the weeds in the 70s. The ETT also mentions a Dayton team track west of here. STILLWATER (MP 20.3, block station controlled from DAYTON) Here, the right of way is following the south bank of the Stillwater River out of town. TROTWOOD (MP 22.2) Trotwood has a restored PRR station, including the red window mullions that were standard in steam era, but were later dropped from Lines West practice. BROOKVILLE (MP 28.9, controlled by W. Manchester) Brookville's station was still standing last time I visited, but the exterior was painted an annoying "rest room green". This frame station is built in an interesting "wild carpenter" style, possibly similar to the old PRR freight house in Elwood Indiana. In the late 1800's, the fact that the Panhandle was a PRR affiliate means that many things were done the PRR standard way, but many more were not, and this may be one of the results of that "Lines West" independence. Brookville in 1966 had a passing siding, 74 car capacity. DODSON (MP 31.3), controlled by W. MANCHESTER) At Dodson, the B&O's Dayton & Union trains to Greenville and Union City left the Pennsy main. Some map study has convinced me of the following: 1) At one time, the B&O had a Stillwater branch that left the B&O/CH&D from a wye track on the west side of B&O's SOUTH DAYTON YARD. 2) That branch crossed Broadway, Germantown St, and 3rd St, and then wandered out through Dayton's West Side. GM's Inland Rubber is probably served from part of this line today. 3) Beyond the Dayton city limits, this branch headed northwest, until it met the PRR/Dayton & Western main and then paralleled it (and probably the Stillwater River) to DODSON. 4) At some time in the past, the rural trackage south of DODSON was abandoned, and the B&O arranged trackage rights from MIAMI CITY JUNCTION to DODSON on the D&W. The diamond (at DODSON?) was lifted, and replaced by a simple switch at DODSON. WARNING: Keep in mind that this is an interpretation, and not fact. Adding to the fun is a second B&O branch that left the Pennsy main near MIAMI CITY STATION, dropped south of 3rd St, and then followed it west out of town, crossing the Stillwater Branch as it approached 3rd Street from the southeast. The 1925 Dayton map shows this branch as "the Home Road", which could refer to the Ohio Veterans' Home in that end of town. WEST MANCHESTER (MP 41.7) Crossing of an NYC north-south line that was once the Cincinnati Northern (reporting mark NOR). The 1966 ETT mentions the "C.N.R.R. connection". Site of 83-car siding. The tower here was a tired-looking two-story frame structure, so badly weathered that the paint color would be a guess. NEW PARIS (MP 51.7 from Dayton, and MP 113.8 from Columbus via Bradford) Freight cutoff comes southwest to meet passenger main. From here west, freight and passenger trains use the same (mostly double) track railroad to Indianapolis. Next time, the narrow gauge lines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:23:45 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (1) Retransmission to PRR-Talk: Gize, Tom Vondruska offers some facts I didn't have. Thank you, Tom Rick Tipton LWF In a message dated 11/29/98 11:17:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST writes: > > The B&0 roundhouse was well west of North Finlay Street. It and the caboose > track were on the north side of East First Street near Harshman Street (NOT > Harshman Road in Riverside with its once-deadly NYC/Erie grade crossing) > about three block eat of DUR overpass. > > According to folks at Greene Co.Hist. Soc., passenger service on B&O' > wellston sub ended in 1930. > > While the PRR bought the CL&N in 1896, the CL&N did buy the >Dayton Lebanon & > Cincinnati RR & Terminal, CO> its Dayton line until 1912. > > Last passenger to disembark at DUT was Pres. Ronald Reagan on Oct. 14, >1994. > > > Roundhouse west of DUT north of the viaduct was original CH&D engine > facility. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:49:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Built dynamic brakes? In a message dated 11/30/98 11:24:43 AM Central Standard Time, miracle- castings@on.aibn.com writes: << But I can't think of what the dynamics on an Erie Built look like. They didn't have the same arrangement, did they? I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one that showed any dynamics. Can someone educate me? Thanks >> Which if any of Pennsy passenger units had dynamic brakes? I never thought about it before now but I dont believe any of the E-units did, so it raises the question about passenger units in general. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:23:37 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (2) In a message dated 11/30/98 11:58:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST writes: > In a message dated 11/30/98 10:35:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@ > aol.com writes: > > << Opinion: if there's anything more picturesque than street > running, it's street running past a county courthouse with a Fairbanks- > Morse > switcher. >> > > Ahh, Rick, you've seen that picture of Harry Noble's Nope. We used to shop in Xenia when I was a kid. Saw 'em then. > > < before late 60s, > assigned power was almost certainly H10-44's by Fairbanks-Morse). Open space > that could have had roundhouse/turntable > - Westbound PRR main to Dayton, curving off to the north.>> > > It was a three-stall affair probably dating back to 1850 when the C&X line > east was complete. A wye large enough to turn M1 4-8-2s was later installed > west of Greene Tower and used part of the siding serving the Landmark Co-op > Elevator and later the Super Valu grocery warehouse, > What you didn't see just east of this was the 500'+ curved coal dock razed > in 1951 that was located on the same spot as that engine staging track Ahhh > > > > WRONG! The original LMRR Depot was in a house at South Detroit and Second > Street a block south of the Greene County Courthouse. It was razed in 1939 > so an Alber's supermarket could be built on that location. You're right - I had forgotten the earlier, original station. > The 1850 C&X depot was a two-story, flat roofed triangular brick structure > whose acute angle mirrored those of the tracks around it. Makes sense, a triangular structure for a triangular site. Actually, I'll bet it was tapered but four-sided. Only photo I've ever seen of it is a south elevation, so it doesn't betray the odd shape. BTW, I'm not sure where I've seen this pic published, but the spindly 4-4-0 in the picture has its tender lettered L.M.&C.&X., for Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia. More evidence that the two railroads operated as one > If the building Rick describes stood on the north side of the tracks > beneath the PRR water towers, you've just described Faye's Depot Inn, the old > railroad hotel across the Dayton tracks see, I knew there was a bar or restaurant over there. Glad you knew the name. > If the building stood between the tracks next to the South Detroit Street > Viaduct, > then it was Xenia (XG) Tower, the telegraph office, the interlocking station > that controlled the Springfield cut off and the divergent intercity lines and > the various yard tracks that split off to the service facilities located > immediately west of the Passenger depot (It's this area which is modeled in > the Greene County Historical Society's Operating Diorama of Xenia's railroads. > ) The tower served a passenger station after the C&X depot was raised until > Amtrak halted passenger St. Louis-Washington passenger service on the > Panhandle in 1979. Conrail used it as its Xenia office until the line was > abandoned in 1986 when it, too, was razed. A full-sized replica ($300,000 > worth) of XG opened in May of this year serves as the visitor center for > Xenia's "Bicycle hub," a park built atop the site of the Pennsy yards where > bike trails following all five of Xenia's rail lines meet. > I'm looking forward to seeing XG's restoration. > < station and the elevator's spur (trailing point eastbound) are long gone, > but > I am told the elevator has recently had its paint and lettering restored.>> > > There is now a small depot like building standing along the bike path just > east of the elevator next to Alpha Road. It's unlike any PRR depot in the > area. I've been told it was moved to this location. I am still trying to > learn more.>> I originally had the same question, but there's been a small depot-like building aligned to the track there for years. Alpha Seed & Grain was owned and operated by the Stewart family, including Mark (Marcus) Stewart, who taught me math in high school. It may have been Mark who told me that it was the office for the elevator. > Wait a minute, if the grades west of Xenia were so steep and those south of > Xenia so gentle why have I seen shots of a T-1 heading west through Trebein > but only K4s heading through the Little Miami Valley. Tom, the answer is that we haven't done our homework yet. If we were sufficiently familiar with the Cincinnati & Xenia Branch, we would probably find out something like: 1) we missed pics of T-1s on the Cincinnati Ltd (#40 and 41)? 2) the turntable at Pendleton wasn't long enough for a T-1? 3) Cincinnati Union Terminal had something against 4-cylinder engines or some other bizarre reasoning. More practically, I'd guess the Cincinnati line just wasn't high-speed enough to warrant a T-1 (there were a number of 40 mph curves). Or maybe the equipment rotation didn't fit the maintenance cycle. Interestingly, the PRR Cincinnati District ETT #8, dated Oct. 30, 1955, has been expunged of all mention of S or T class engines. It's still mentions maximum safe speeds for A, B, E (!), G, H, I, J, K, L, and M-class engines. Only the E, G, and K were good for 70 mph. By comparison, passenger diesels were all good for 70 mph, except for freight- passenger engines (FP-7's ?) which were good for 75. Huh? That's what it says, I can't argue with an employee timetable. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:10:42 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Dynamic brakes on Erie builts. --------------620B24563415B06128392118 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: While doing the research thing on my original post about the Erie's, I checked and rechecked each fact. The "Pennsylvania Railroad Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June 2, 1952" has the information on the dynamics in the locomotive description. The numbers are my own based on Pennsy Power II & III information. Pennsy Power II has a 3/4 head on view of 9479 leading two other Erie's (my guess would be the 9478B & 9478A) on a passenger train. It does not look any different then the other Erie's. My guess on dynamic placement would be in the rear radiator section - along with everything else that needed to be cooled. By the time FM introduced the C-Liners, they may have had good engineering/real time data on the amount of heat generated by dynamic brakes in the Erie's and moved them to there own separate area. It has been a long time since I have seen anything on the FM Erie product line. I'll start to check my old Trains and what not for some history. cos wsbcos.com --------------620B24563415B06128392118 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:

While doing the research thing on my original post about the Erie's, I checked and rechecked each fact.  The "Pennsylvania Railroad Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June 2, 1952" has the information on the dynamics in the locomotive description.  The numbers are my own based on Pennsy Power II  & III information.   Pennsy Power II has a 3/4 head on view of 9479 leading two other Erie's (my guess would be the 9478B & 9478A) on a passenger train.  It does not look any different then the other Erie's.

My guess on dynamic placement would be in the rear radiator section - along with everything else that needed to be cooled.  By the time FM introduced the C-Liners, they may have had good engineering/real time data on the amount of heat generated by dynamic brakes in the Erie's and moved them to there own separate area.

It has been a long time since I have seen anything on the FM Erie product line.   I'll start to check my old Trains and what not for some history.

cos
wsbcos.com --------------620B24563415B06128392118-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:58:33 EST Subject: [PRR] Track Pans & Scooping Water In Don Ball's Pennsylvania RR book there are some good shots of track pans. Page 187 has a nice shot of pans and their associated plumbing. Pages 180-181 show a T-1 scooping water. These views show the brickwork covering the ballast that was mentioned by someone previously. I don't know if all PRR tenders had pressure relief ports in the tank top decks but I know some had them. The ones I've seen are in the rear outboard corners of the deck. My grandfather used to work for the Pennsy and told me about scooping water.He said they usually slowed down below 60 mph to scoop. If the fireman scooped too much the pressure would slam the fill hatch cover(s) open with great force and the water would also shoot out of the pressure relief ports. One of the things the fireman was to do was listen for the sound of the water. As it began to fill the water would pressurize the tank and the result would be a whistling sound as the air was forced out the ports. The fireman was supposed to start raising the scoop at that time to prevent damage. I understand that scoop equipped tenders had the lock-down latches removed from the tender fill hatches to prevent the excess pressure from blowing rivets or damaging seams, etc. He related as how hobos would be allowed to sleep on the tender decks and they would curl up just under and behind the tender coal slope sheets to stay warm or out of the wind. If the hobos weren't aware of the scooping process they would get the scare of their lives as the tender would really shake and vibrate as the water rushed in and when the whistling started it was enough to scare them to death. That's not even mentioning the sometimes drenching they would get. He related that on at least one occassion he was bumming a cab ride and he and the fireman had to fend off the hobo as he was mad as heck and was making advances toward the cab with bad intent! Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:55:04 EST Subject: [PRR] USRA BOX CARS Folks, Here's a question for the freight car fan: is Tichy's rebuilt USRA box car (Pennsy class X26 in the original form) usable as a Pennsy car? In the Morning Sun equipment book there's a photo of an X26F, but it has a different number of side panels from the Tichy car. I notice on Tichy's web site they list a decal set for this car for DT&I/Pennsy. Now I know Tichy's research is good, and their kits beautiful, so I have to assume they know what they're doing. Is this assumption cprrect, and if so, what subclass would this car be? And when was the rebuilding done? It's such a nice car, I hesitate to decorate it for anything but Pennsy.Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:41:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA BOX CARS In a message dated 11/30/98 7:33:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Folks, Here's a question for the freight car fan: is Tichy's rebuilt USRA box car (Pennsy class X26 in the original form) usable as a Pennsy car? In the Morning Sun equipment book there's a photo of an X26F, but it has a different number of side panels from the Tichy car. I notice on Tichy's web site they list a decal set for this car for DT&I/Pennsy. Now I know Tichy's research is good, and their kits beautiful, so I have to assume they know what they're doing. Is this assumption cprrect, and if so, what subclass would this car be? And when was the rebuilding done? It's such a nice car, I hesitate to decorate it for anything but Pennsy.Thanks, Barry Peltier >> Barry it is useable, with some minor modifications. Mailine Modeler had an artical on changing the car into an X26 a few years back, but I can't remember when. I have the issue so I'll try to dig it up. Brian J Carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:25:47 -0600 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs Jerry wrote: > > On 11/30/98 12:00 PM, Laird, Bill (Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: > > > I believe that "Thrumph 1" has some photographs and information on > >track pans. > > Yes. Includes some dimensional data and close up photos. Seem to recall a > Keystone article also. > The Summer '97 Keystone had a brief story about an L1s that had to dump the fire due to loss of water into the engine. Turns out the tank was plugged up with potatoes. The train just ahead of the Mike was a hopper train carrying potatoes, and a hopper door came loose at just the right time over the pan. For a modeling idea, how about equipping a DCC equipped engine with a working scoop! It would add a challenge for operators, with disastrous results for not raising the scoop in time. Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:34:13 -0500 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: [PRR] Toledo Divison and coaling towers Mark Bej wrote: > From Carrothers to Toledo was all Conrail until recently. Conrail still owns the > northern stretch, which will be passing to CSX; the southern stretch is owned by > a short line whose name I cannot now recall. Northern Ohio & Western. > Youngstown has always confused the hell out of me, particularly as I am not > posessed of a period (i.e. 1960 or back) USGS topo map. However, I _suspect_ > that the coaling tower standing there is of PRR heritage. The pipe-style > handrails on nearby bridges would tend to give this away; however, I'm being > cautious, as _several_ parallel or largely parallel rights-of-way ran through > Y-town. Yes, the coaling tower north of I-80 is a former PRR tower. Conrail's Lordstown Secondary (former E&A Branch) runs past it. To the east of the tower were the ROW's of the B&O (origninal P&W main) and Erie. Somewhere in there the Lake Erie & Eastern connected with the PRR, but I don't know if it was north or south of the tower. On the far side of the river is the current B&O main. I'm not sure if the Youngstown & Northern got up this far or not. There have been a couple of good shots of that coaling tower in Railpace that I can recall, one with the Conrail OCS train(!) passing it, and another with an Ohio Central train. Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak Time has little to do with infinity mailto:jer@smellycat.com and jelly doughnuts. http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ -- Thomas Magnum Acts 16:31 <>< ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:29:09 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Toledo Divison and coaling towers Jerry Jordak wrote: > > Yes, the coaling tower north of I-80 is a former PRR tower. Conrail's > Lordstown Secondary (former E&A Branch) runs past it. To the east of > the tower were the ROW's of the B&O (origninal P&W main) and Erie. > Somewhere in there the Lake Erie & Eastern connected with the PRR, but > I don't know if it was north or south of the tower. On the far side of > the river is the current B&O main. I'm not sure if the Youngstown & > Northern got up this far or not. There have been a couple of good shots > of that coaling tower in Railpace that I can recall, one with the Conrail > OCS train(!) passing it, and another with an Ohio Central train. Does anyone have a scan of this coaling tower when it was in use that they'd like to share? -=D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:16:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Free Christmas Train Rides December 19 & 20 As we do every year, ISS Rail and the Western Pennsylvania Railroad Historical Society will be running Christmas trains over ISS's trackage in New Castle, PA on December 19 & 20. There is no cost, just show up at the ISS Car shops in Mahoningtown between 9 am and 4 pm on Saturday and 1 pm and 4 pm on Sunday. Equipment will include ex Army Alco S1 pulling Conrail bay window caboose 21257 (fully restored), PRR N8 cabin car (fully restored), and a recently acuired PRR N5c cabin car (to be restored). For information or directions email me. Rick Rowlands VP WPRHS, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:15:15 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops, water troughs > >Were there any track pans on the Pittsburgh Division? If >so I would definately have to model them. Greetings to Ron and the list: Latrobe and Wilmore are the two that come to mind first. Remember that the Pittsburgh Division main line wasn't as long as the Middle Division main line (113 actual miles [be careful about counting milepost miles -- they show 117 but the line was significantly shortened] on Pgh. Division vs. 131 miles on Middle Div.) so the need for them was not as intense. Middle Division track pans were at Bellwood, Mapleton, Hawstone, and, I've heard but not confirmed, Bailey. Cisterns or water tanks for mainline trains that stopped -- primarily freight trains -- were at Perdix/Cove and Longfellow (perhaps elsewhere, too, but those two are for sure). Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Genesis (not Amtrak) 1:1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:06:52 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Erie Built dynamic brakes? --------------9C69AE594031612223A95135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: More on the Erie bults: All Erie builts except 9478AB & 9479 where originally either class FF2 or FF3 then to FF20. class FP20a units where originally FF2 or FF3 units, hence the dynamic brakes. 9478AB and 9479 are the only Erie units that came as passenger locomotives - original class FP3. I have no information on which units where converted to passenger units. The only other PRR passenger units to have dynamic brakes are the EFP-15 (EMD FP-7) Numbers 9832A to 9871A (40)and 9832B to 9858B (14)(even numbers only). All units made it to Penn Central - renumbered to 4332 to 4371 for the A units and 4150 to 4163 for the B units. 9832 to 9839 ( 8 A units)delivered Tuscan Red with 5 strips. 9832 to 9838 (4 B units - even numbers only) delivered in Tuscan 5 strip scheme. ***Note - only Penn Central Bi-Annual list 8 A's and 4 B's - everybody else I found listed on two sets - 4 A's and 2 B's*** A note in the "Classification and Descrtiption of Locomotives and Tenders" - "Note:--Class EFP-15==Normally Freight, but Equipped for use in Passenger Service". The only picture that I can find of these units in passenger service is on page 138 of Don Ball, Jr.s' 1986 book THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD 1940s - 1950s. It also has a picture of 9833 in Red 5 strip on page 106. Just to add to the picture list - page 127 has one of a curved track trough at Mapleton, with the steam plant in the background. cos wsbcos.com Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/30/98 11:24:43 AM Central Standard Time, miracle- > castings@on.aibn.com writes: > > << But I can't think of what > the dynamics on an Erie Built look like. They didn't have the same > arrangement, did they? I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one that > showed any dynamics. Can someone educate me? Thanks > >> > > Which if any of Pennsy passenger units had dynamic brakes? I never thought > about it before now but I dont believe any of the E-units did, so it raises > the question about passenger units in general. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on > special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------9C69AE594031612223A95135 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:
More on the Erie bults:

All Erie builts except 9478AB & 9479 where  originally either class FF2 or FF3 then to FF20. class FP20a units where originally FF2 or FF3 units, hence the dynamic brakes.  9478AB and 9479 are the only Erie units that came as passenger locomotives - original class FP3.   I have no information on which units where converted to passenger units.

The only other PRR passenger units to have dynamic brakes are the EFP-15 (EMD FP-7) Numbers 9832A to 9871A (40)and 9832B to 9858B (14)(even numbers only).  All units made it to Penn Central - renumbered to 4332 to 4371 for the A units and 4150 to 4163 for the B units.

9832 to 9839 ( 8 A units)delivered Tuscan Red with 5 strips.
9832 to 9838 (4 B units - even numbers only) delivered in Tuscan 5 strip scheme.
***Note - only Penn Central Bi-Annual list 8 A's and 4 B's - everybody else I found listed on two sets - 4 A's and 2 B's***

A note in the "Classification and Descrtiption of Locomotives and Tenders" - "Note:--Class EFP-15==Normally Freight, but Equipped for use in Passenger Service".

The only picture that I can find of these units in passenger service is on page 138 of Don Ball, Jr.s' 1986 book THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD 1940s - 1950s.
It also has a picture of 9833 in Red 5 strip on page 106.
Just to add to the picture list - page 127 has one of a curved track trough at Mapleton, with the steam plant in the background.

cos
wsbcos.com

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/30/98 11:24:43 AM Central Standard Time, miracle-
castings@on.aibn.com writes:

<<  But I can't think of what
 the dynamics on an Erie Built look like. They didn't have the same
 arrangement, did they?  I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one that
 showed any dynamics.  Can someone educate me?  Thanks
  >>

Which if any of  Pennsy passenger units had dynamic brakes? I never thought
about it before now but I dont believe any of the E-units did, so it raises
the question about passenger units in general.

Bob Zoeller

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  --------------9C69AE594031612223A95135-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] water scoops,water troughs Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 21:48:20 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/30/98 7:25 PM, Andy Cich (ajc5150@net66.com) wrote: >For a modeling idea, how about equipping a DCC equipped engine with a >working scoop! It would add a challenge for operators, with disastrous >results for not raising the scoop in time. Bet the side-splashing water would be tough on the electronics! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wheatland Coaling Tower Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:02:30 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ring To: Alan Buchan Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaling Tower >> As of September 1998 the concrete coaling tower minus ALL hardware was still >> standing in Wheatland, PA on the former Erie & Pittsburgh Branch. It is in >> the middle of an industrial complex completely surrounded by chain link >> fencing. I guess the industry thought it was too expensive to tear down. >> >> Al >Which industrial site in Wheatland has the coaling tower? I pass through >Wheatland several times a week. Charles, It is a relatively new industrial complex, built within the past four or five years, I believe. I don't remember seeing it when I visited in 1994 or 5 but it was there this past September. I don't know the name of the industry. However, it is adjacent to Ohio Street on the south side, between the grade crossing (which is the old E&P main track) and the Shenango River. You can't miss it. It is reinforced concrete rectangular box on four legs about three to four stories high. There was a 100' turntable, four stall round house, machine shop and other repair facilities at that same location, all gone today. The back wall of the round house was right adjacent to Ohio Street. The turntable was full of trash and the round house and other buildings were abandoned and decrepit when I was supervisor there in 1960s. There was also a two story brick yard office/YMCA, a brick MW tool house and a concrete block ME building adjacent to Ohio Street closer to the grade crossing also all gone today. I believe a lot was destroyed when the tornado came through Wheatland about 15 years ago or so. You might also be interested to know that the three wooden poles set in a triangular configuration (which survived the tornado), also on the south side of Ohio Street, closer to the grade crossing is where the yard flood lights were mounted on the south (railroad east) end of the yard. Also if you feel adventerous some day walk south (railroad east) down the old right-of-way from Council Avenue as the old double track, tripple span, through truss bridge on stone piers is still spanning the Shenango River. This had been reduced to a single track crossing when I was there. The Wheatland Yard Limits started on the north (railroad west) end of the bridge at the switch to the Sharon Secondary Track.. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:44:50 -0500 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: Re: [PRR] Wheatland Coaling Tower Al Buchan wrote: > It is a relatively new industrial complex, built within the past four or > five years, I believe. I don't remember seeing it when I visited in 1994 or > 5 but it was there this past September. I don't know the name of the > industry. The complex houses Yourga Trucking and Bi-State Storage. A long curved spur goes into the complex off a switch just south of the Ohio Street crossing (probably not original track--Al, can you confirm?) and goes into Bi-State's building. Last I knew, Bi-State was receiving boxcars of aluminum ingots three days a week from Conrail. They use a tiny trackmobile to move their empties out onto the "main", since there is no runaround track at that end of the line. Conrail's YIFE-11 local switches this on Monday/Wednesday/Friday, so it is possible to photograph the local passing in front of the coaling tower. I just wrote an article on this local for my railroad club's newsletter, so if anyone wants a copy, mail me off-list and I'll e-mail it to you. Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak Time has little to do with infinity mailto:jer@smellycat.com and jelly doughnuts. http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ -- Thomas Magnum Acts 16:31 <>< ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:57:43 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] water track pans Hi All... I wonder if they still find parts of the water track pans from time to time off on the side of the Right of Way ? I remember hearing somewhere a while back that someone had. I had heard that when they were torn out that many were just thrown off to the side of the Right of Way. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:29:28 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] BP-60 and DCC water Hi Folks.... Ok...making a fast entry here before i send you a longer one.... The BP-60 plans are on pages 34-35 of the february 1967 issue of Model Railroad Craftsmen magazine. Not as good as a Geisel drawing...but something to go on. Now as for a DCC water scoop and water....Hmmmmm how about clear fiber optics ? If small and flexable enough it could simulate the water spraying out from underneath the tender. Just a idea. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA BOX CARS Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:47:39 -0600 Barry and other SPF's--The Tichy rebuilt USRA box car sadly is not usable as a PRR X26c. Two of these cars in restored condition (CK lettering, too!) can be viewed at links from Rob's http://prr.railfan.net/ . There are differences in the number of side panels and in the end configuration. It does make up into an accurate P&LE car. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 6:21 PM Subject: [PRR] USRA BOX CARS >Folks, >Here's a question for the freight car fan: is Tichy's rebuilt USRA box car >(Pennsy class X26 in the original form) usable as a Pennsy car? In the Morning >Sun equipment book there's a photo of an X26F, but it has a different number >of side panels from the Tichy car. I notice on Tichy's web site they list a >decal set for this car for DT&I/Pennsy. Now I know Tichy's research is good, >and their kits beautiful, so I have to assume they know what they're doing. Is >this assumption cprrect, and if so, what subclass would this car be? And when >was the rebuilding done? >It's such a nice car, I hesitate to decorate it for anything but >Pennsy.Thanks, >Barry Peltier > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on >special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:53:20 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Long one...Magazine drawing list Ok guys.... this is a long one...What i'm doing here is listing model railroading magazine drawings that i mostly have...there is one on this list i don't have and have so noted it.Also i have listed a couple of articles on PRR equipment. One reason I'm listing this is to help folks who have no idea what drawings there are out there. As with many of you i would love to have a Locomotive or Car encyclopedia for what i would like to model or for reference...but right now i can't. But i still feel they are both great for what a modeler needs for reference. But there are times also when you don't need all of it and only for one particular engine or car....this is where having a certain drawing from a magazine helps. Another reason for this list is that perhaps with my start, all of us can add to it and after say a week or so we all will have a more complete list of what is out there and then it can be printed out for reference. While this started out as a list of only freight cars due to a question posted here...i decided to expand it to include cabin & passenger cars and locomotives....I left any structures out....only equipment (there are only so many structure drawings in the magazines anyway).Two i would like to have had to added to this list would have been the K-4 drawings which i believe were printed in the late 1940's by Model Railroader and the GG-1 drawings (which i used to have) that were printed in two issues of a early 1970's Railroad Model Craftsmen. In case anyone on the list is interested i also have drawings for the Maryland and Pennsylvania 0-6-0,4-4-0,old 2-8-0 newer 2-8-0 engines and cabin 2002 and if i can find it one of the baggage cars. Before i get into this i would like to say that while the book " PRR passenger and freight car diagrams " by Robert Wayner does'nt have the best in the way of line drawings...it still is a handy source when you can't find info on a car otherwise. Note...to save space.... MR= Model Railroader RMC= Railroad Model Craftsmen MRing= Model Railroading This will be the way i do this..... (Sample) BP-60 pages 34-35 2-67 (date) RMC (magazine) Locomotives...... A-4 page 98 6-94 MR B-4a page 42 7-68 MR E-6s pages 92-93 9-78 MR (part of a model conversion article) G-5s page 50 11-52 MR H-3 (R) 100-104 11-86 MR H-6sb page 52 2-61 MR M-1a page 40 3-68 MR N-1s page 48 11-69 MR GG-1 (part of Broadway drawings) pages 84-99 10-94 MR BP-60 pages 34-35 2-67 RMC Baldwin 1500hp sharks (PRR) page 38 10-66 MR K-4 scratchbuilding articles 1949 MR (i have the third part 12-49) anyone have the others? Cabin Cars..... NA page 90 10-96 RMC (part of article) N-4 page 124 12-95 MR N-5 (a and b) page 51 11-68 MR N-5c 4-82 ? MR (THIS IS ONE I DON'T HAVE)<----------- N-8 conversion article in 2-70 RMC Pre 1900 cars..... GB page 90 10-96 RMC(this and below part of article) XA page 90 10-96 RMC KA page 91 10-96 RMC Tool Car (no class given)page 40 10-59 MR PF Coach pages 32-33 8-65 MR Pre WWII freight cars..... H-30 pages 66-67 10-81 MR (part of article) F-30 (aka commonwealth flat) page 34 3-89 MRing (part of article) F-33 pages 27-29 4-55 RMC FM page 42 8-63 MR (also see page 81 10-77 MR) XL pages 38-39 8-57 MR XL Camp Car page 56 9-66 MR R-7 (reefer) pages 40-45 4-58 MR (part of article) Post WWII freight cars.... G-39 page 47 12-67 RMC H-2a (N&W H-10) page 39 6-65 MR Passenger Cars.... PB-54 and MP-54E page 78 10-69 MR Modernized P-70 No.s 4244-4309 pages 44-45 10-68 RMC 1920's Pullman Combine (Liberty series plans 3951-3951c)pages 110-111 11-89MR (These cars for PRR service,later rebuilt) D-70 page 67 1-55 RMC B-70 theater cars pages 48-49 7-67 RMC P-70 and MPB-70 cars page 36 8-63 MR 1949 Broadway Limited (plus GG-1) pages 84-99 10-94 MR POS21A (1938) pages 34-35 8-67 RMC POS21 (1949) (pullman plan 4134) pages 42-43 8-68 RMC PS106 ("rapids" and "eagle" series cars) page 89 7-96 MR PS18 ("City of" series cars,1938) pages 48-49 8-67 RMC P85b page 111 10-95 MR (Heavyweight Pullmans) 12-1 Sleeper pages 40-41 2-66 MR 12-1 " (pullman plan 2410-1) pages 56-57 12-67 RMC 8-1-2 " " " 3979A pages 58-59 12-67 RMC 8-1-1 " " " 2585D pages 34-35 8-68 RMC 8-3-1 " " " 4090 pages 34-35 8-68 RMC Well thats all of it....I sincerly hope this helps someone. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wheatland Coaling Tower Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:27:32 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Jordak To: PRR-Talk Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 11:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Wheatland Coaling Tower >Al Buchan wrote: > >> It is a relatively new industrial complex, built within the past four or >> five years, I believe. I don't remember seeing it when I visited in 1994 or >> 5 but it was there this past September. I don't know the name of the >> industry. > >The complex houses Yourga Trucking and Bi-State Storage. A long curved >spur goes into the complex off a switch just south of the Ohio Street >crossing (probably not original track--Al, can you confirm?) Jerry, I would have to look at the track to determine if original. However, it might be part of the original lead to the enginehouse??? Also please send me a copy of your YIFE-11 write up thanx. Al <>< ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!