Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 00:53:56 -0400 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > > Greetings, > > I just picked up the two new Proto 1000 PRR F3A Locomotives. I thought I would > share my thoughts on this new line from LifeLike Products, in case anyone is > contemplating adding them to their collection. > Ed, Did they get the windshield shape right or are they square like the Athearn F7? What about nose contour? Thanks for sharing your thoughts. -D -- David Mikulec DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net The Nostalgia Trip Homepage http://www.users.mis.net/~shazada/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:25:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Greetings, I just picked up the two new Proto 1000 PRR F3A Locomotives. I thought I would share my thoughts on this new line from LifeLike Products, in case anyone is contemplating adding them to their collection. Product Information: LifeLike Products 8172 PROTO 1000 F3A PRR #9502 (PRR Class EF15 - Delivererd 1947) DGLE - Single Stripe LifeLike Products 8173 PROTO 1000 F3A PRR #9508 (PRR Class EF15 - Delivererd 1948) DGLE - Single Stripe Features include: Proto2000 magnetic knuckle couplers, constant and drectional lighting, dual mached brass flywheels, Balanced 5 pole skew wound armature, Heavy die cast chassis, RP25 contour blackened metal wheels, 8 wheel drive, 8 wheel pickup. Suggested Retail is $50.00. I am sure discounts vary. My local hobby shop is selling them for $29.95. Walthers listed the item last week as "in stock". They currently list them as NOT in stock with an Unknown for expected delivery. "Pennsy Diesel Years" vol 5 lists these two road number Locomotives as being based in Renova, PA in 1960. Ed's Amature Product Review: The model comes fully assembled, shell already mounted, ready-to-run. Paint Color - The DGLE shade is very close to black. The color is noticeably blacker when compared to a Proto2000 DGLE E7 model. The shade is not as black as the Proto2000 GP9 shade. When put side by side w/ the GP9, a hint of Green is noticeable. Lettering/Striping - the single stripe and road numbers are very crisp. Running - In my brief tests, it runs every bit as well as my Proto2000 GP9's. Smooth and quite, through a range of speeds. Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO external grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are there - they are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. The windshield detail is similar to Proto2000. There is no interior cab detailing. The Chicken-wire detailing on the cab side is surprisingly very good. It is accurately an early model F3 w/ chicken wire down between the two portholes. The detailing clearly shows the cab support struts behind the chicken wire. The portholes are covered w/ the same clear plastic used on the windshield. The roof mounted fans are not shrouded and are not see-through like on the Proto2000 GP9's. The trucks are nicely detailed. The air horns on the roof are accurately and nicely done. The rear of the cab, to include the rear door, leave a bit to be desired. Reviewing photos I have of F3's - it sure looks like they got all the details right, just not as crisp as on their Proto2000 line. Overall, the detailing does not compare w/ a Proto2000, but for the money, I would rate it very good. I am happy I have added these models to my collection. I hope this information has been useful. Regards, Ed -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, System Support Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Enterprise Services Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6460 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: October Specials from "Merchandise Service" Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 11:23:43 -0400 From: Jerry The October special from "Merchandise Service" is Athearn. All Athearn rolling stock and locomotives (including mechanisms) are 20% off. The Westerfield special continues thru December: 3 kits for $45 on selected items! For product and ordering information, see http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ Remember, all proceeds benefit operation of the lists and web sites at PENNSYRR.COM and DSOP.COM...thank you for your support. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 05:14:39 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/1/98 12:25 AM, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE (Ed.Turner@East.Sun.COM) wrote: >Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO >external >grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are there >- they >are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. The >windshield >detail is similar to Proto2000. There is no interior cab detailing. The >Chicken-wire detailing on the cab side is surprisingly very good. It is >accurately an early model F3 w/ chicken wire down between the two >portholes. >The detailing clearly shows the cab support struts behind the chicken >wire. The >portholes are covered w/ the same clear plastic used on the windshield. The >roof mounted fans are not shrouded and are not see-through like on the >Proto2000 >GP9's. The trucks are nicely detailed. The air horns on the roof are >accurately and nicely done. The rear of the cab, to include the rear door, >leave a bit to be desired. Reviewing photos I have of F3's - it sure >looks like >they got all the details right, just not as crisp as on their Proto2000 >line. >Overall, the detailing does not compare w/ a Proto2000, but for the money, I >would rate it very good. Some good observations. I looked at these at Mainline Hobby and -- through the box window -- was not impressed...though I've been spoiled by P2K. Looks comparable (detail wise, not operation wise) to a Walthers Trainline or an Athearn, though perhaps better than the latter. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 01:38:44 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] WCCCo. Dry Transfers Hi All, Checked the Clover House catalog and found no WCCCo. transfers. Did find a #289 in the C-D-S dry transfer catalog for the GLa. I believe it's HO though not sure as most of my ref. materials are N. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Terry Link" Subject: Re: [PRR] WCCCo. Dry Transfers Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:22:54 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Ron Dugas > >Checked the Clover House catalog and found no WCCCo. transfers. Did find >a #289 in the C-D-S dry transfer catalog for the GLa. I believe it's HO >though not sure as most of my ref. materials are N. > Nearly all CDS dry transfers are available in N,HO,S & O, though they may not be available at all times. If anyone requires any - contact me off list. Some are also available in G scale as well. Terry Link Bramalea, Ontario TRLINK@netcom.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:05:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] WCCo. Decals >Hi All, > >Checked the Clover House catalog and found no WCCCo. transfers. Did find >a #289 in the C-D-S dry transfer catalog for the GLa. I believe it's HO >though not sure as most of my ref. materials are N. Hi All, FWIW, from the Westerfield catalog (n.b. decals ARE available seperately!): ********************* 2305 GL HOPPER ORIG., WESTMORELAND ERAS: 00s 10s MODELS: GL as built for Westmoreland Coal 1902 and as run into the 'teens. ROADS: WCCO WESTMORELAND The GL class was a 33` version of the PSC hopper first built for PB&LE in 1897. This first all-steel design was delivered to PRR, its subsidiaries and mines PRR serviced between 1898 and 1904, totaling over 20,000 cars. Our kits feature one-piece hopper interiors for easier assembly. Westmoreland received about 200 GL's in 1902. It picked up an additional 200 upon the purchase of Penn Gas Coal Co. in 1905. The company also owned GLA class cars. The GL's were maintained by PRR and improved per the railroad's cars. They were sold to PRR in 1935 or '36. Decal 2305 - Price B ********************* Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:00:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's In a message dated 10/1/98 5:40:40 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Looks comparable (detail wise, not operation wise) to a Walthers Trainline or an Athearn, though perhaps better than the latter. >> Didn't check nose contour or window shape,but I thought screening detail was superior to anything Walthers or Athearn would do for an F3 prior to now (Athearn's purchase of Highliner tooling makes the future possibilities a lot different) , and I wish my Stewart had as good a striping and lettering job. No separate details like a P2K but not in the same price range, either. I would be interested in the performance--isn't it the same mechanism? If so, then I consider it a bargain,but then I am an operations nut and my bifocals don't focus down to separate grabirons in a dimly lit train room, even though I occasionally add them myself just because "I know they are there". BTW, I saw mine at Termnal Hobby Shop at Walthers, not to be confused with their distributorship . Once it has moved to THS shelves, it is off Walthers online inventory list. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 08:53:08 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Hoss's Dinner: Last Update Greetings to the groups, Sorry about getting this out so late in the week. According to the info I have collected (Again, thanks Carl.) the following have indicated that they will be at hoss's at 7PM Saturday for dinner. I'll provide directions to Hoss's in a separate post. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA Jerry Breon Roy Breon Dan Cupper (unless tied up with museum stuff) Dennis Sautters Drew McGhee Carl Haslett Karen Haslett Thomas Haslett Patricia Haslett Erik Seidelmann Norm Seidelmann Harold McGee Robert Strain David Gnuse Jerry Britton Ashley Britton Rich Ader Jennie Ader Rob Schoenberg Paul Tupaczewski Derrick J Brashear and quest(s) Neal Campbell Mike Wingard David Wingard ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 08:51:05 -0400 From: Jerry Anyone have a web URL or e-mail address for Red Caboose? I checked the MRIA (Model Railroad Industry Association) site, but their search engine is down. (I have notified their webmaster.) REDCABOOSE.COM is a craft shop (totally unrelated). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:10:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ...more 1904... Bill, A great brain teaser. This is all I can do from memory; will have to look up the rest. BTW, it's interesting that this list contains no CL&N Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern (PRR LW) - probably too small VRR Vandalia RR (cars probably marked PCC&StL/PH by then) NOR Cincinnati Northern (an NYC Lines company still very much alive around 1904) In a message dated 9/30/98 12:17:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRRSignals@aol.com writes: > ***Since you Lines West folks did so great on old road identification, here > are some more: > > The ones that seem obvious, some lasted into 1960's or later, some are parts > of / became under PRR, NYC, etc.: > N & W Norfolk & Western P W & B Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore (a PRR Lines East affiliate) T W V & O Toledo Walhonding Valley & Ohio (PRR Lines West) C A & C Cleveland, Akron & Columbus/Cleveland Akron & Cincinnati (PRR Lines West) C & O Chesapeake & Ohio L & N Louisville & Nashville (sing chorus of "Dixie") N C R Northern Central (a PRR) G T Grand Trunk (the New England one) Heinz Co. H.J.Heinz, Pittsburgh PA A A Ann Arbor M C Michigan Central (New York Central Lines) C B & Q Chicago Burlington & Quincy C M & St P Chicago Milwaukee St. Paul & Pacific G R & I Grand Rapids & Indiana ("The Fishing Line", and a PRR Lines West) G N Great Northern B & O Baltimore & Ohio S AL Seaboard Air Line P M Pere Marquette L S & M S Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (New York Central Lines) N Y C & H R New York Central & Hudson River Railroad (NYC Lines) L V Lehigh Valley M & St L Minneapolis & St.Louis Wabash ex-Toledo, Wabash &?? L & N L&N again L E & W Lake Erie & Western (or, "leave early and walk) D L &W Delaware Lackawanna & Western Big Four Cl, P F W & C=p, E & P=p, > > These are the debatables: ( anywhere there is a dash, it could be an > '&'.........) > C & M Cleveland & Marietta C S Ry Cincinnati Southern (leased by Southern Railway)? I - V ? A - V ? P H probably PCC&StL/Panhandle abbrieviation (PRR LW) E L ? K M Kanawha & Michigan (NYC Lines) P P W & C ? C H & D Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton (became B&O) F & P M Flint & Pere Marquette C & M V ? & Muskingum Valley M R R R ? C L & W ? P F N W ? O & L K ? B & B C ? B & O S W Baltimore & Ohio Southwestern (former Ohio & Mississippi, ran from Cincinnati to St. Louis and once had 3rd rail for 6-foot Erie trains. B&O controlled P & W ? I&V ? C A & C CA&C again M D T C Probably Merchants Despatch Transportation Company A V R Allegheny Valley Railroad? E C L ? T C S & D ? H V Hocking Valley (to C&O) P T R ? W Va S L ? P & W P&W again, still don't remember it A R Line ? C & P Cleveland & Pittsburgh (PRR Lines West) P Y & A Pittsburgh Youngstown & Ashtabula (NYC Lines?) P F C ? unless abbreviation for Pittsburgh Fort Wayne & Chicago (PRR LW) T F O W Co. ? T O C Toledo & Ohio Central U L ? P B & L E Pittsburgh Bethlehem & Lake Erie (later just B&LE) P Y &A again. > > It ==looks like== C&M and PH were PRR subsidiaries, since those road names > show up on work trains...usually only company cars went out in work > service.... > > To confirm Bary P, the WCCCo cars are only Gons, none other; > so that "Westmoreland Coal" sounds good, no matter how you spell it...... > > all yours, LinesWestFans........Bill*** > Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] 65' G26a Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:18:17 -0500 Just received this kit from eastern car works. With all the talk about paints on the list lately, what are your suggestions for painting this kit? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 09:20:57 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Directions to Hoss's Greetings to the groups, For those planning to attend dinner at Hoss's at 7PM on Saturday during Rail Fest, it is located at the corner of Valley View Blvd and 7th Street in Altoona. There is another Hoss's in the Altoona area. It is located at the Meadows Intersection between Duncansville and Hollidaysburg. DO NOT go there unless you want to eat by yourself. To get to Hoss's from the museum, take 17th Street as you would to get on Interstate 99/US Route 220. Just before getting on I 99/US 220 you will be at the intersections of 17th Street and both Pleasant Valley Blvd (the first one coming from the museum) and Valley View Blvd (the second one). Coming from the museum you want to make a left hand turn onto Valley View Blvd. Since it's one-way, you can only make a left hand turn onto Valley View Blvd coming from the museum on 17th Street. Once on Valley View, just count down the street numbers. Hoss's will be on the right hand side just after Dairy Queen. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:40:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] BM-60's I've asked this question before and have gotten many answers...all wrong! I am asking about the RPO cars the Pennsy ran and sold to the N&W. The class was: BM-60 I have a lot of information on the B-60 Baggage cars. The constant referrals to the Morning Sun PRR Equipment books is of no use for the BM-60's. They aren't there! I would really like to get some help on this car series but it seems everyone starts trying to help before they read what I'm actually asking. I'm not trying to be rude but they are completely different cars and B-60 info doesn't help any more than J-1 information when asking about T-1's. I'm sure there has to be something in some deep recess about these cars. They obviously existed and plans had to be available as ALCO Models produced the cars. Since ALCO Models is no longer with us, even that road is a dead end. I ask once again for my fellow Pennsy fans to help me find the information needed to paint and accurately operate these cars. How many? What numbers? When built? Time frame operated? The cars sold to the N&W were purchased in 1937 so maybe that's when the PRR deemed them unnecessary? HELP!!!!!!!! Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:30:54 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] antique road names Here are my guesses on Bill's list of antique Lines West reporting marks. I'm assuming they all came from 1904. The references, such as 42:453, refer to ICC Valuation Reports. 42:453 means report volume 42, page 453. I haven't put down the dates of formation, but each company in the PRR and B&O lists was in existance in 1904 under the name given (except the B&BC). PRR subsidiaries, leased lines, etc. CA&C Cleveland Akron and Columbus Ry 23:577 Consolidated with C&MV in 1911 to form Cleveland Akron and Cincinnati RR B&BC Bedford and Blair County (that word again) 22:283 Consolidated with others to form Pennsylvania Midland in 1894 (Maybe it took over 10 years to get around to painting this one?) I&V Indianapolis and Vincennes 23:486 Consolidated with others to form Vandalia RR in 1905 AVR Allegheny Valley Railway 22:282 Merged into PRR in 1910 PTR Pennsylvania Terminal Railway 23:887 Consolidated with Louisville Bridge & Railroad Co. in 1918 to form Louisville Bridge and Terminal Railway Co. C&P Cleveland and Pittsburgh 23:447 conveyed to PFtW&C in 1916 PY&A Pittsburgh Youngstown and Ashtabula RR 23:551 became PY&A Railway in 1906 C&MV Cincinnati and Muskingum Valley RR 23:577 See CA&C above B&O subsidiaries, leased lines, etc. CH&D Cincinnati Hamilton and Dayton 42:453 reorganized as Toledo and Cincinnati in 1917 MR RR Monongahela River RR 42:500 disposed of all common carrier property to B&O in 1912 CL&W Cleveland Lorain and Wheeling 42:548 O&LK Ohio and Little Kanawha 42:407 B&OSW B&O Southwestern that is, "B&O Lines West" 42:464 P&W Pittsburgh and Western 42:416 WVaSL West Virginia Short Line 42:490 Miscellaneous: F&PM Flint and Pere Marquette later, Pere Marquette HV Hocking Valley later, C&O A R Line ? Armour Refrigerator Line ? TOC Toledo and Ohio Central UL Union Line PB&LE Pittsburgh Bessemer and Lake Erie later, Bessemer and Lake Erie === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 11:04:34 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Don't Forget the last of Pennsy's Narrow Gauge Feeders If you're planning to attend RailFest this weekend, you owe it to yourself to make the 1-hour round trip to Orbisonia, PA to visit and ride the East Broad Top. Of course, you'll see more if you return NEXT weekend during the Oct. 10-11 Fall Spectacular, but that is probably too much to ask. If any of you DO plan to come to the latter event, please stop by the Friends of the East Broad Top booth that will be set up on the grass near the roundhouse. Friends of the EBT will also be represented at RailFest. Vagel Keller Industrial Heritage Homepage http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60's Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:59:31 -0400 Roger, Can't add much except that it was NJ International / Custom Brass that produced the BM-60 models, not Alco Models. I had several and ended up selling them (long time ago) since I could not find any information on them. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:56:04 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60's >I've asked this question before and have gotten many answers...all wrong! I am >asking about the RPO cars the Pennsy ran and sold to the N&W. The class was: > BM-60 Hi Roger, I think you'll find that you are finally asking at the right place! (a quick scan of my short term memory and the archives indicates that you haven't asked on this list before). >Can't add much except that it was NJ International / Custom Brass that >produced the BM-60 models, not Alco Models. I had several and ended up >selling them (long time ago) since I could not find any information on them. I too am familiar with the model Dennis described, as I have a box for one (In that box was a Railworks R-60, that was worth considerable more than the BM-60 price that I paid ) >I have a lot of information on the B-60 Baggage cars. The constant referrals >to the Morning Sun PRR Equipment books is of no use for the BM-60's. They >aren't there! "PRR passenger and freight car diagrams" has diagrams of the BM-60. You are quite correct in stating that there are few published photos and none in the "color guides to the PRR". I do not believe that the car is shown in the PRRT&HS passenger car book either, although the paint diagram on p15? (shooting completely from memory) covers the BM-60. I'll check again tonight >I ask once again for my fellow Pennsy fans to help me find the information >needed to paint and accurately operate these cars. painting: see above (I'll check tonight) - what year are you thinking? operating: The RPO section was only 15' and therefore was very limited. I can only imagine that these cars operated on branch lines, as the M-70 and BM-70 fleet was used for mainline trains. >How many? What numbers? >When built? Time frame operated? >The cars sold to the N&W were purchased in 1937 so maybe that's when the PRR >deemed them unnecessary? HELP!!!!!!!! Okay, here I'm stymied - hope someone else can help! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:45:30 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's A friend of mine got a couple of these in LV paint and one of the units had a dead short across one of the axles. Had to press one of the axles thru the wheel a bit more (using a socket that was the same size as the wheel and a small vise) in order to get the short out of the unit. Other than that problem and about 8oz of lead glued to the roof the units are nice running locos. He doesnt know about DCC but the receivers for Rail Command fit nicely as well. On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > Greetings, > > I just picked up the two new Proto 1000 PRR F3A Locomotives. I thought I would > share my thoughts on this new line from LifeLike Products, in case anyone is > contemplating adding them to their collection. > > Product Information: > LifeLike Products 8172 > PROTO 1000 F3A PRR #9502 (PRR Class EF15 - Delivererd 1947) > DGLE - Single Stripe > LifeLike Products 8173 > PROTO 1000 F3A PRR #9508 (PRR Class EF15 - Delivererd 1948) > DGLE - Single Stripe > > Features include: > Proto2000 magnetic knuckle couplers, constant and drectional > lighting, dual mached brass flywheels, Balanced 5 pole skew > wound armature, Heavy die cast chassis, RP25 contour blackened > metal wheels, 8 wheel drive, 8 wheel pickup. > > Suggested Retail is $50.00. I am sure discounts vary. My local hobby > shop is selling them for $29.95. Walthers listed the item last week as > "in stock". They currently list them as NOT in stock with an Unknown for > expected delivery. "Pennsy Diesel Years" vol 5 lists these two road number > Locomotives as being based in Renova, PA in 1960. > > Ed's Amature Product Review: > > The model comes fully assembled, shell already mounted, ready-to-run. > > Paint Color - The DGLE shade is very close to black. The color is noticeably > blacker when compared to a Proto2000 DGLE E7 model. The shade is not as black > as the Proto2000 GP9 shade. When put side by side w/ the GP9, a hint of Green > is noticeable. > > Lettering/Striping - the single stripe and road numbers are very crisp. > > Running - In my brief tests, it runs every bit as well as my Proto2000 GP9's. > Smooth and quite, through a range of speeds. > > Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO external > grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are there - they > are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. The windshield > detail is similar to Proto2000. There is no interior cab detailing. The > Chicken-wire detailing on the cab side is surprisingly very good. It is > accurately an early model F3 w/ chicken wire down between the two portholes. > The detailing clearly shows the cab support struts behind the chicken wire. The > portholes are covered w/ the same clear plastic used on the windshield. The > roof mounted fans are not shrouded and are not see-through like on the Proto2000 > GP9's. The trucks are nicely detailed. The air horns on the roof are > accurately and nicely done. The rear of the cab, to include the rear door, > leave a bit to be desired. Reviewing photos I have of F3's - it sure looks like > they got all the details right, just not as crisp as on their Proto2000 line. > Overall, the detailing does not compare w/ a Proto2000, but for the money, I > would rate it very good. > > I am happy I have added these models to my collection. I hope this information > has been useful. > > Regards, > Ed > -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- > | Edward F. Turner, System Support Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | > + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Enterprise Services Ph 770 360-6466 + > | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6460 | > -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net Technical Support & Validations x2 & V.90 Access net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System http://www.bluemoon.net www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network bbs.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Bowser GS gondolas... Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:51:28 -0400 Hi all, Greetings from the Altoona Econolodge! On the way to Railfest today I stopped at the Bowser factory store (English's Model Railway Supply) and got one of the first cases of their new GS gondolas. (They said they would be shipping to shops later in the week) The cars standard issue Bowser. The car itself is nicely executed, the detail is crisp etc even though the details are cast on. They now use polyscale paint so their cars aren't glossy anymore. They're still about the same shade though. The lettering is just ok. The larger lettering and keystones look ok to me but the smaller lettering just uses stock fonts. I still bought a few of each of the shadow and circle keystone cars. The circle keystone cars are in the 860xxx series which agrees with the GS listing on my web site. The shadow keystone cars are in the 390xxx series, these cars are listed as class GSH -- these are rebuilt cars -- I'm not sure if there are any visible differences between the classes... Overall, they're nice cars. I'll probably repaint and decal them eventually but for now they look pretty good! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] BP20s - It's a Miracle! Date: Fri, 2 Oct 98 19:28:56 -0400 From: Jerry Guess what arrived today? My eval BP20 Shark from Miracle Castings! As I am getting ready to leave for RailFest at 5 a.m., I'm not going to be able to do an in-depth eval before I leave. However, I am taking the unit with me to Altoona for comments from those in attendence. Prefacing my initial comments, let me say that I have seen much better...but not in a BP20 Shark! I'd prefer this unit to be better but, short of brass, it's all we've got. Once painted and dressed up, however, it should satisfy most modelers, including myself. Now, some initial comments: All of the windows require filing. Some are filled in with a narrow layer of resin (on the inside). The detailing is not crisp, like a P2K, but that's to be expected. The curvature of the nose has a "carved" look. It's not real rough, but the gleen of the resin reflects light and you can notice it. However, once painted I don't think this will be a factor. The unit includes its own chassis, to answer a long standing question. Only the power trucks are needed from the Athearn PA mechanism. The unit includes a headlamp casting, but no bulb. It is considered optional, "if the modeler wants it to be lit." Anyone paying this much for a shell would want a working headlight! No decals. This was known up front, but again, they should be included. Even for a few bucks more, this should be an all-in-one (sans trucks, perhaps) kit! There's a detail -- not sure what it is yet -- on both sides of the unit, about where the stripe would pass through. It's about a foot square (scale), and there's one on each side in the front and in the rear. The one's in the rear are at the same place on both sides. However, the one's in the front are off by about 1/16". I'll look into this. All for now. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:02:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] 1904 reporting marks solved, well, nearly all Let try my hand at this. This first part is easy. I'lleven give the PRR lineage for subsidiaries where applicaible. N & W,= Norfolk & Western (wholly owned but independently operated PRR subsidiary) P W & B=Pittsburgh, Washington & Baltimore(PRR) T W V & O=Toledo, Walhonding Valley & Ohio(PRR/PO&D and I believe it is properly "Ohio River" TWVORRR is marked on PRR Co. maps) C A & C= Cleveland, Akron & Columbus(PRR/PO&D) C & O=Chesepeake & Ohio L & N=Louisville & Nashiville N C Rw=North Central Railway(PRR) G T =Grand Trunk Heinz Co=H.J.Hienz C0.of 57 flavors ie, the pickle car A A,=Ann Arborr M C=Michigan Central (NYC), C, B & Q=Chicago, Burlington & Quincy C M & St P=Chicago, Milwaukee & St.Paul G R & I =Grand Rapiids & Indiana (PFtW&Co/PRR/P.Co/) G N=Great Northern B & O=Baltimore & Ohio S A L,=Seaboard Air Line P M,=Pere Marquette L S & M S=Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (NYC) N Y C & H R=New York Central & Hudson River (NYC) L V,=Lehigh Valley (PRR controlled, independently operated M & St L,=Minneapolis & St. Louis Wab=Wabash, (PRR controlled, independently operated) L & N=Louisville & Nashville L E & W,=Lake Erie & Western (later a key part of the NIckel Plate Road() D L & W=Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Big Four,aka CCC&StL=Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (NYC) P F W & C=Pittaburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicaago (PRR/P.Co.) E & P=Erie & Pittsburgh=PRR, These are qa litttle more difficult. I used the Kalmbach 1948 railroadatlas on these C & M=Cleveland & Marietta (PRR/P.Co/PFtW&C) C S Ry=Carolina Southern I - V=Indianapolis & Vincennes A - V=Aroostook Valley P H, aks PCC&StL Panhandle/pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis E L=Erie Lackawwannaa K M= P P W & C,=(probably PIttsburgh,Fort Wayne & Chicago C H & D=Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton (B&O) F & P M, C & M V,=Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley (PRR/PO&D)) M R R R=Mineral Range? C L & W=(Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern?) P F N W,= O & L K= B & B C= B & O S W, P & W=Pittsburgh & Wheeling I & V=Indianspolis & Vincennes (PRR/VRR/PCC&StL) C A & C=Clevelandd, Akrom & Columbus (PRR/PO&D) M D T C,=Merchants Despatch Trans. Co. A V R,=Aroostook Valley E C L= T C S & D= H V,=Hocking Valley RR P T R,= W Va S L,=West Virginia Shortline P & W,=Pittsburgh & Wheeling A R Line=American Refrigerated Transit? C & P=Cleveland & Pittsburgh (PFtW&C/PRR/P.Co.) P Y & A=Pittsburgh, Youngstown & Ashtabuls (PRR/P.Co./PFtW&C) P F C,= T F O W Co.= T O C,= U L=Union T P B & L E= Pittsburgh, Bessemer & Lake Erie . OKaaay, how 'bout: (Some of these are precursors of the PRR, so get out yer Burgess & Kennedy!) CL&N, M&C, DL&CRR&TCo., LMRR, D&W, C&X, CC&IC, R&C. StLC&P, StL&TH, JM&I, TH&P, VRR, I&F, CI,, LA&S, DT&I. P&E, W&WRR, OR&W, VGN, CN&St.L, ACL, B&M, NYNH&H, CIL, TDC&StL, MR&LE, A&GW, CORR ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Date: Fri, 2 Oct 98 13:52:31 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/2/98 1:22 PM, Eric J. Minton (eminton@hula.net) wrote: >Please place me on hold for all of my list's, I will be away from my >computer until Oct. 18,1998. Respectfully, to you, Eric, and to others, I cannot be your personal mailman. If you don't want to receive mail, then unsusbscribe. Subscribe when you return. If you don't know how, send "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". There are 250+ people on the "PRR-Talk" list; 220+ on the "Conrail-Talk" list; 90+ on the "psufootball" list; etc., etc., etc. I cannot handle personal requests like this given this many people. You need to take on this responsibility yourself! Furthermore, such a request should never have been posted to the list. Why do 250 people need to know that you are going away for two weeks and you want me to hold your mail? --Jerry, Listmaster ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 07:22:04 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: [PRR] Aloha Jerry, Please place me on hold for all of my list's, I will be away from my computer until Oct. 18,1998. Thanks, Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Multiple Posts - Listmaster comment Date: Fri, 2 Oct 98 10:04:25 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/2/98 9:29 AM, Huber25@aol.com (Huber25@aol.com) wrote: >I'm sorry that some of you have received multiple posts of my recent plea for >help on the BM-60 RPO cars. I assure you I only sent the request to this >address once. I'm sorry it upset some of you and even though it wasn't my >doing....I apologize for ruining your day. I would think the problem of the >multiple posts is the provider. I can assure you that, under the current setup, there are no dupes coming out of DSOP.COM. The listserv is no longer sending mail directly to the subscribers. There is one strange case, with Brady McQuire, that almost suggests that another list may be rebroadcasting "PRR-Talk" posts to "some" subscribers. Nobody, however, has provided me with complete copies of these e-mails so that I can disect the long headers. When evaluating "dupes" in your mailbox, please be very careful to be sure it is a word-for-word dupe with no new text at the beginning or the end. There were numerous very similar BM60 posts, but different variations -- perhaps cross-posts from other lists. If any subscriber is found to be rebroadcasting -- which can not only cause dupes but also mail loops -- the will be unsubscribed immediately and permanently prevented from resubscribing. --Jerry, Listmeister ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 09:29:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] Multiple Posts I'm sorry that some of you have received multiple posts of my recent plea for help on the BM-60 RPO cars. I assure you I only sent the request to this address once. I'm sorry it upset some of you and even though it wasn't my doing....I apologize for ruining your day. I would think the problem of the multiple posts is the provider. If this one gets sent more than once......tough! I assume no more responsibility and you guys need to get mad at someone else...not me. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] freight car lettering Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 07:49:10 -0500 Please Help, Im modeling the late steam, early diesel era post WWII to 1950. Im confused by the different lettering options available. Should i use circle keystone, shadow keystone, block letters, or a combination? Please help walt ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP20 Date: Fri, 2 Oct 98 05:23:35 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/2/98 12:42 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Any reviews yet on these shells and the kit from list member(s)? I -- "Merchandise Service" -- was made one of their official distributors in the U.S. In fact, we were the first one listed on their web site! However, before placing an order for stock, I ordered one eval unit (which I am paying for). I've been waiting for about a month now, when I was told they would ship within a week. Last word was that they were shipping it out "today", and I think that was last Friday. Still don't have it. Their web site now has more complete photos, and I must say, it looks pretty good. I'll let the list know when (if) I receive the shell and my opinion. If it pans out, I will offer a shell/Athearn mechanism bundle. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 00:42:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP20 Any reviews yet on these shells and the kit from list member(s)? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:18:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Penna Lines West of..... ***Listen.!!! ..I want to get this out there for you P. Lines West guys.... Can someone coodinate...anyone...= Sweet Old Bob N., Rick T., Barry P., Rick R..............any of you guys.. I can send it out, someone can copy and share / distribute, whatever.... I am also in touch with John Schultz - out near North Judson, involved in their museum, etc....they would probably appreciate a copy.... Pls discuss and get back to me, and I will send it right out........ A nice piece, and, maybe someday someone will find me some ...... ..................PRRSignals = stuff..!!!!!................................Bill****** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 20:59:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's > Did they get the windshield shape right or are they square like the > Athearn F7? What about nose contour? > Yes, the windshield shape is accurate. Looking straight on from the front, the top of the windshield and frame contours with the top of the cab. The bottom also contours with the nose contour. The only barely noticeable discrepancy on the nose section is the transition underneath the windshield as that body section flows onto the nose. When looking at the model from the side, that transition is a little sharper than one would find on a prototype. Regards, Ed -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, System Support Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Enterprise Services Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6460 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:34:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's From: locoshop@juno.com These units have the SAME power drive as the Proto 2000 line of locomotives. The ONLY difference is that the P1K will not have the plug-and-play DCC socket in it. On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:00:16 EDT Bobspf@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 10/1/98 5:40:40 AM Central Daylight Time, >jerry@dsop.com >writes: > ><< Looks comparable (detail wise, not operation wise) to a Walthers > Trainline or an Athearn, though perhaps better than the latter. >> > >Didn't check nose contour or window shape,but I thought screening >detail was >superior to anything Walthers or Athearn would do for an F3 prior to >now >(Athearn's purchase of Highliner tooling makes the future >possibilities a lot >different) , and I wish my Stewart had as good a striping and >lettering job. >No separate details like a P2K but not in the same price range, >either. >I would be interested in the performance--isn't it the same mechanism? > If so, >then I consider it a bargain,but then I am an operations nut and my >bifocals >don't focus down to separate grabirons in a dimly lit train room, even >though >I occasionally add them myself just because "I know they are there". > >BTW, I saw mine at Termnal Hobby Shop at Walthers, not to be confused >with >their distributorship . Once it has moved to THS shelves, it is off >Walthers >online inventory list. > >Bob Zoeller > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to use the Internet? Get fast, reliable, affordable Web access >From Juno, the world's second largest online service. Download your free software here. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 18:49:12 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Some BM-60 info Ok i'm back... First of all...for those who don't know... there is a diagram for a BM-60 in the "PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" book. On page 3. this book is by Robert J. Wayner Wayner Publications 1981 Sometimes you can find these books at train shows. There is also the BM-62..But this is not the same car. This car (BM-62) is a MU car or older trailer. Both types were sold to the N&W. The information i have on the cars sold to the N&W comes from "Norfolk & Western Rwy. Willison Terminal:1953" 1992 Bison Publishing Corp. Some of the cars purchased by the N&W were former PRR BM-62 class cars. N&W class MBj, Nos 330-334 These were bought from the PRR in 1934 and off the N&W Roster by 9-1949. The N&W Roster also lists 5 cars in N&W class BMh Delivered in 1929 Built by Beth Steel...but does'nt list if they were bought from the PRR. Although...their lenth,RPO lenth,baggage lenth,weight(with-in 1,000 Pds) and truck type all match PRR designs.(it even says the truck type was PRR) Nos. were 14-18 Next is N&W class M-1 Delivered in Dec. 1937, Also built by Beth. Steel. again everything is the same except they are slightly heavier. (11 tons heavier) Nos. were 90-98 There were also 10 N&W class BEk cars Delivered in 1929 also built by Beth Steel. again the same dimentions, but 6 tons lighter these cars are listed as straight baggage cars(It possible that they could have been converted to regular baggage cars) Nos. were 125-134. NOTE: Some of these same cars may exist today, These may be some of the same cars used in N&W steam excursion service. Also there are two cars of this type here in Norfolk at the Eastern Shore R.R.s Little Creek yard. It is very likely that at least some of these cars are former PRR class BM-60 cars...I just wish the book had listed if N&W or PRR were the original owner or not. Also the book " Tidewater Triangle" by Robert J. Yanosey 1988 by Morning Sun Books Shows short Baggage Mail cars in three pictures of N&W passenger trains on pages 37,38, and 39. All pictures were taken during the 1960's. There are more pictures of PRR like N&W 60 ft. baggage cars on other pages too. I don't know if this has helped or confused anyone,but thats what i have on them. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:29:25 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Need help for PRR plans From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Hey group... I received the message below on the date given. I NEED said track plans for my research on Delmarva's Pennsy operations. When responding to Steve's Email, my letters are rejected by the software at NASA. His server may not have my server's address on file. If any of you can get through (I'm on Juno and it is sometimes restrictive), advise him that I could use a hard copy of the PRR Little Creek track plans. I can be reached at work--410-549-9169. Thanks, David W. "SSGT" York >>On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:21:18 -0400 "Steve Bundick" > writes: >>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDE9F8.2EC70CC0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>Was looking through some of the mail on J Briton's Keystone Crossings > >>= >>and saw that you were looking for some track plans in the Norfolk >>area. = >>I have a PRR track chart showing Little Creek to St. Julian Ave. It >is >>= >>probably circa late 50's or early 60's. The chart also includes >>Delmarva = >>showing single track. I think the 2nd track was removed around 56. >>I'm = >>from Pocomoke, Md, and have big interest in the Delmarva line. Let me > >>= >>know if you are interested in a copy of the chart. It's only about a >= >>page. >> >>-Steve >> > >--RAAAA10315.907190706/x16.boston.juno.com-- > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:26:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] BM60 Pennsy folks, I knew this class designation rang a bell somewhere. I dug out Wayner's 1969 book "Pennsy Car Plans" and sure as heck it has a drawing of this car, on page 6. Gives capy as 25,000 pds baggage end, weight 105,500 pounds, 6 ft bagg door, 2ft-6 in RPO door, 15'-1" RPO section, 44'-7 7/8" bagg section. But it doesn't list the car numbers! Guess I can't help there. But now that you've got my interest up I better run downstairs and check out that old Walther's kit and see how close it might come.I hope it's close, cause I ain't about to start carving and rearranging metal sides at this stage of life. Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Terry Link" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:57:39 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry >Anyone have a web URL or e-mail address for Red Caboose? > >I checked the MRIA (Model Railroad Industry Association) site, but their >search engine is down. (I have notified their webmaster.) > >REDCABOOSE.COM is a craft shop (totally unrelated). > >From their dealer information sheet it's www.red-caboose.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 16:51:16 EDT Subject: Re: [prr] antique road names ***wow, sweet old bob, I am in awe. Thanks; I well appreciate the Sincere and factual research that had to be done for that compilation..!!!!!....More P-L-W stuff whenever I can share it .....Bill*/**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:53:55 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] BM-60 cars Hi Guys... I have some info on the BM-60 cars (and the cars sold to N&W) I'll get back to you all a little later tonight with it. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: P2K PA's Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 15:53:50 -0400 From: Jerry "Merchandise Service" has received in its shipment of the new Tuscan PA's and PB's. Wow!!! All who have placed advance orders will ship out tomorrow. Thank you. After filling all orders, we'll have a few PA's left and one PB. Prices are $70 and $35 respectively...yes, they were less expensive if you pre-ordered! Add $5 shipping. Remember: Proceeds benefit operation of the lists and "Keystone Crossings". Thank you for your support. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:01:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] 1926 Railway Engineering & Maintenance Cyclopedia FS I have on Ebay a 1926 Railway Engineering & Maintenance Cyclopedia for sale. It is over 1000 pages with thousands of photos and diagrams. Covers every aspect of track, bridges, buildings, motor cars, water for locos and signals (semaphore and electric). The Track Section was written by W.F. Rench supervisor PRR Ebay # 33133705 See listing for more details ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 16:34:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ...more 1904... In a message dated 10/1/98 7:10:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] ...more 1904... Date: 10/1/98 7:10:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: RickTipton To: PRRSignals, PRR-Talk@dsop.com CC: Stuthayer, LINESWEST, rmweinheimer@newwave.net Bill, A great brain teaser. This is all I can do from memory; will have to look up the rest. BTW, it's interesting that this list contains no CL&N Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern (PRR LW) - probably too small VRR Vandalia RR (cars probably marked PCC&StL/PH by then) NOR Cincinnati Northern (an NYC Lines company still very much alive around 1904) >> ***OOOhhh, okay...me slow, coming along, kinda modern dude ( 1950's up) , weak on history, pls forgive.. ..PCC&StL = PH....aha.!!!!....that last bunch was all i could find that were not repetitions. I would love to have more like that, a record of exactly what it was.....my kinda facts, versus speculations / guesses / discussions about english land divisions ( ahem.. .) neat...I will throw anything that i get P L W on here for you guys, are you are also dedicated researchers, and real enthusiasts.!!!!..............Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 15:41:26 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/1/98 2:22 PM, Thomas K. Trower (tktrower@earthlink.net) wrote: >What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their >Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. I've wondered how good these "cab ride" videos are. Their "Pennsylvania Limited" series -- four, I believe -- covers the main from Philly to Pittsburgh. There is a two-tape series covering the "Port Road" that also interested me. Is there a lot of voice annotation pointing things out? Or is it mostly background music to sit back and enjoy the ride? Too bad it's all modern stuff. Hmmm. Maybe when K4s 1361 is restored they can reshoot the Middle Division...sending some restored equipment the other way for meets and all! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] head end videos Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:22:52 -0400 What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. Anyone have their New York-New Haven and New Haven-Providence cab ride videos? I'm thinkin of gettin these and wonder if their any good. Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] X29 Variants Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 13:18:29 -0400 From: Jerry In reviewing the many variants of the X-29 that Red Caboose offers, I'd like to know the eras applicable to each scheme. Obviously, any scheme could last to eternity, but when did the following first appear: "Merchandise Service" "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 "Railway Express Agency" "Shadow Keystone" Though not showing on the Red Caboose web site at present, I have seen these in hobby shops: "Calendar Numbers" "Don't Stand Me Still" <---I think I saw a post-WWII reference for this one. Are/were there any others offered by Red Caboose? Are/were there other prototype schemes? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 12:50:34 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 1 Oct, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO external > grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are there - they > are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. It's very interesting that in making the shell as cheap to produce as possible (ie, no by-hand assembly) they managed to cut the price by that much. Of course, that's all we've had in N scale so far anyway... Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:33:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] HO PRR items for trade (sale?) I have some duplicate items I'd like to get something interesting for, and with RailFest Saturday I figure this would be the best time for trades. I have: Atlas 3 bay Cylindrical Hopper PRR #260022 (Atlas no 1935-4) Proto 2000 DGLE E7B #5853 Ideally I'd like to trade each for another number (the Atlas for a 1935-2 or 1935-3, the P2K for the other DGLE E7B number) but I'll entertain any interesting offer... by personal email of course! I have some other duplicates around, but these are the most interesting ones. The rest are on the order of $4-$7 freight cars. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 12:47:13 CST Subject: [PRR] Unloading some stuff... Hi, all, This is a bit off-topic, but in a recent much-needed clean-up of my rr stuff, I ran across two Howard Fogg color prints (def. not originals) which I've decided I can do without. If anyone is interested, they're yours for $ 9 each including postage. Each image is 14x20". One shows two Lackawanna RS-3's on single track in a fall setting. The other shows some train being pulled by some steam engine called a HUDSON. I think the train was called the 20th Century Limited? Yeh, it's an NYC scene. All I can say in my defense for mentioning the Enemy on this list is that it was a gift. BTW the NYC scene has a white border; the DL&W one does not. Anyone interested? PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 12:06:31 -0400 Roger, I do know that they ran on the LIRR as well. I think I have a photo of one on the LI in the 50s. I have never found any record of their presence on the PRR in any era I am interested in. The PRR either sold them all early or only built them for its affiliates. regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:42:53 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos Thomas K. Trower wrote: > > What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. > > Anyone have their New York-New Haven and New Haven-Providence cab ride videos? I'm thinkin of gettin these and wonder if their any good. > > Here's one opinion of RR Video tapes that seems to apply to at least MOST of the ones I have bought/seen: They are technically good, NO background music :-)) BUT: On the ride from NY to New Haven, I was looking forward to the view coming around the curve into Stamford. Walt Berko, the owner/cameraman of RR Video, chose that moment to pan left and look at the Stamford skyline until the train was well into the station. So much for that scene. One the Phila-NY tape, as we were about to get a great vies of the massive Passaic River drawbridge leaving Newark, he turned the camera down to study oil storage tanks along the riverbank. On the Altoona-Johnstown portion of the tape covering that area, he was on an outer track going around Horseshoe. No view of Horseshoe Curve, as a freight was blocking the view on the inside track. Although it is not his fault, and he did try to make up for this by adding on footage of another trip over the Curve, he couldn't decide whether to keep the camera on the curve or go back and look at the railfans lining the fence. We were thereby treated to the back-and-forth weaving of the camera. Finally out of the curve, I anticipated at least a look up the hill to the next curve at the top of the Horseshoe area---end of tape, no such luck. In addition, Walt sometimes makes excessive use of the lens zooming feature, quite disconcerting when the train is moving, and only slightly less so just after a station stop. No music, as I said, but Walt does keep up an intermittent dialogue with the engine crew, often on items unrelated to the tape, and definitely dated with regard to the subject. On one NE Corridor tape he comments at almost every closed interlocking tower, "No longer in service," a true statement, but overall cumulatively depressing. A rundown at the end on closed towers would have served the purpose with less distraction. Final frustration: On the cab ride into Grand Central, after the long ride through the Park Avenue Tunnel, with little more to see than featureless tunnel walls somewhat dimly lit by the headlight, he shut off the tape just before the final arrival and station stop. On a positive note, the annoyances aside, these are an excellent source of scenery information, and great train rides. As a retired engineman, I never get tired of the view out the front. Signals are hard to read, but that is a characteristic of the video lighting conditions and the limitations of the TV display. At a train meet a few years ago I described my frustration with the tapes to Walt's son, who was in charge of the Railroad Video booth; the tapes I mentioned had already been produced...I do not know if the word ever got back to Walt or had any effect. My inflated $0.02. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:42:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] [D] Miracle Castings DR-6-4-2000 shark A unit (fwd) A repost of my review of the BP20's.... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Mine arrived today (along with a letter indicating that I was apparently customer #1:-) I just opened it and gave it the once-over. Looks good. Notably: a) the roof detail appears to match the photos I have, which admittedly I can't make out very well. b) lacking shots of the rear of the units, I can't comment on the accuracy of that portion, but it compares well with the Roco/Model Power/soon-to-be E-R units c) the rivet detail and the batten strips are at least as good as I've seen on any other resin model d) the nose contours appear correct In the way of compromise, I see: e) the back doors on the unit aren't recessed as they should be; It appears that because of the space needed inside the frame for the trucks that this was necessary f) the number of vent slats along the vents just below the roof line on the sides is too few. g) a few wavy spots in the body. nothing that looks like it will be a real problem to deal with In all, looks like it will be a worthy addition to my Pennsy diesel fleet. I'll be digging out my spare Athearn PA units so I can scrap one for a drive for this, so I can get to work on it. (I've thus far failed to do this. djb 10/3/98) -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP20 On Fri, 2 Oct 1998 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Any reviews yet on these shells and the kit from list member(s)? I thought I CC'd my review here; I will find it and resend. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:26:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] X-29s From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, Hope you are enjoying your day at Railfest. I want to tag on a question about the X-29s to Jerry's. How accurate are the Circle Keysone cars for printed lettering? Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:26:05 -0400 Actually as I understand it, P1K uses pre-existing shells on P2K quality drives. The F3 shell is supposedly the same one that has been around for years. > ---------- > From: Dennis Rockwell[SMTP:dennis@bbn.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 12:50 PM > To: Pennsy Fans > Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's > > On 1 Oct, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > > > Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO > external > > grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are > there - they > > are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. > > It's very interesting that in making the shell as cheap to > produce as possible (ie, no by-hand assembly) they managed > to cut the price by that much. > > Of course, that's all we've had in N scale so far anyway... > > Dennis > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Greg Johnson Subject: RE: [PRR] head end videos Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:20:33 -0500 Jerry, I have four of the RVP tapes and I really enjoy them. My personal interest was for views of the trackside industrial sites. As for narration, it depends upon the tape. Generally there is nothing but live in-cab audio. There is of course the backgraound engine noise with the conversation between the engineer and videographer being heard as well. The "narrator" (videographer) on some of the tapes does call off CP's, rivers and station sites. Since he used to railroad in the Northeast, he is pretty knowledgable with the areas he films. The only drawback to the tapes is the're hypnotic. You find yourself transfixed at the scenery coming up and around you, and you just gotta see what's around the next bend! Regards Greg Johnson Modeling Pittsburg steel in the 60's in Houston in the 90's -----Original Message----- From: Jerry [SMTP:jerry@dsop.com] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 2:41 PM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos On 10/1/98 2:22 PM, Thomas K. Trower (tktrower@earthlink.net) wrote: >What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their >Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. I've wondered how good these "cab ride" videos are. Their "Pennsylvania Limited" series -- four, I believe -- covers the main from Philly to Pittsburgh. There is a two-tape series covering the "Port Road" that also interested me. Is there a lot of voice annotation pointing things out? Or is it mostly background music to sit back and enjoy the ride? Too bad it's all modern stuff. Hmmm. Maybe when K4s 1361 is restored they can reshoot the Middle Division...sending some restored equipment the other way for meets and all! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:28:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos I have about 10 of these head end videos. They are worth the $20, IMHO. Don't expect too much in the way of information, though. Most of the time it's just the camera rolling and what ever it sees is what you get. I did use it to find several good photo spots and structures that I didn't know existed. I have dealt directly with Walter Berko and he seems to be a real decent guy. I can only say order one, I think you'll be happy (for the price). Frank Garon Perth Amboy 10/98: 15 years since the last GG1! (I'm still in mourning!!!) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:09:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants In a message dated 10/3/98 8:16:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: > "Merchandise Service" 9/47-9/57 > "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 > "Railway Express Agency" 1930-1954 > "Shadow Keystone" 2/54 -1961 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:49:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos In a message dated 10/3/98 5:14:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] head end videos Date: 10/3/98 5:14:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: jerry@dsop.com (Jerry) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com ('prr-talk@dsop.com') On 10/1/98 2:22 PM, Thomas K. Trower (tktrower@earthlink.net) wrote: >What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their >Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. I've wondered how good these "cab ride" videos are. Their "Pennsylvania Limited" series -- four, I believe -- covers the main from Philly to Pittsburgh. There is a two-tape series covering the "Port Road" that also interested me. Is there a lot of voice annotation pointing things out? Or is it mostly background music to sit back and enjoy the ride? Too bad it's all modern stuff. Hmmm. Maybe when K4s 1361 is restored they can reshoot the Middle Division...sending some restored equipment the other way for meets and all! >> **Great stuff, especially GG1 4877 cab ride with benny eckman (?) So Amboy to NYCity.. necessary narration only included as information, very well done..Bill**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:21:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants In a message dated 10/3/98 8:16:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << "Merchandise Service" "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 "Railway Express Agency" "Shadow Keystone" >> Jerry, Some of these may be more applicable to the X-29B rebuilds (with new 10' high steel bodies between 1948 and 1954 that updated these boxes to the 1944 AAR standards. Greg Martin has a story in the November 1992 Mainline Modeler about using the McKean kit for an X-29B but also notes that there was a Sunshine resin kit offered. In the December 1992 MM is a prototype story on the X-29B with a drawing of the original Merchandise Service scheme, Circle Keystone with Aluminum stripe outlined in white by Robert Hundsman "Railway Express Agency,": "Buy War Bonds" and the simple Roadname only steam- era scheme definitely. The war didn't start until December 1941 so any wartime propaganda would be 1942 or later. 1942 and early 1943 would be the time for this scheme to be shiny. There were three Merchandise Service schemes. The aforementioned "Circle Keystone with Aluminum stripe began in 1948. This was later simplified by painting the stripe all white. In 1954 when the Shadow Keystone was adopted, the stripe became all white and was broken for the shadow keystone with the break in the stripe matching the sides of the keystone. The PRR Compendium shows this scheme for the X26C, X29, X-29B, X40B and X41B and for the X29. This lasted from 1954 until the service fizzled out sometime about 1958. Roadname only pre-1927 Roadname underline 1927-1947 Circle Keystone in effect (generally) 1947-1954. Shadow Keystone in effect (generally) 1954-1961 1954-1960 Roadname spelled out on car side at opposite end from herald and Pennsy-style car data 1960-1961 Reporting marks on car side at opposite end from herald, AAR-style car data. Railway Express Agency, according to PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 were more than 1,200 X29 and X29A boxes rebuilt for headend service between 1924-1934. 1924-1947 Steam-era scheme, ; lettering of roadname and REA name only. 1947-1954 Circle Keystone painted above REA name PRR compendium shows no post 1954 REA scheme. Lines West Forever! Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:34:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos In a message dated 10/3/98 9:15:21 AM Central Daylight Time, sbartlet@capecod.net writes: << In addition, Walt sometimes makes excessive use of the lens zooming feature, >> Violating rule 1 of Videotaping 101. Biggest mistake of beginning videotapers(including yours truly when I got my new toy about 6 years ago). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:45:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants In a message dated 10/3/98 3:32:06 PM Central Daylight Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 >> Might be later in the war. Only because War Bonds had nothing to do with fighting the war. They were needed to fight inflation as the war dragged on (that level of military spending has usually resulted in very high inflation) Whole Buy War Bonds effort was a BIg Lie in that respect (convincing people it would save Johnny's life) , but the motives and the ends were good. Bob (not a political statement , but an economics one) Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:16:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29 Variants Jerry & Pennsy Folks, As regards the circle keystone paint scheme, it was introduced , it seems, on cars painted in 1930. 1928 Car Builders Cyclopedia didn't show this herald , but the 1931 edition showed cars painted the previous year to be carrying the famous circle on box cars, gons and hoppers. Perhaps someone has more precise info as to exact dates, but there's little doubt this scheme saw about a quarter century of use. What makes it tough for the modeler is deciding between applying the circle or the equally appealing shadow version on some of those favorite cars. Decisions, decisions! By the way, I talked earlier today to the fella who produces Brass Car Sides, at a railraod flea market. He says that his sides have been sized to fit the AHM/IHC cars without any surgery on their lengths, which could be a real break. That P85 does look good. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:04:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] freight car lettering Walt, If you are modeling WW II to 1950 then you are limited to lettering with the "Keystone on the Ball" (circle Keystone) paint scheme (I always considered the Sharknose paint scheme to be the "circled Keystone"). Somewhat limiting and in my next article in Model Railroading I will do a recap on PRR Lettering and Paint Guide. It is a simple side bar but it covers the basics, it should publish in DEC or Jan. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:38:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thanks I would like to thank all of you that responded to my question about the Pennsy BM-60 RPO cars. While the question still exists about their numbering, heritage and use I did get a little more information on the cars and had some good "conversations" with you guys. Thanks for the help. If any one digs up the info on them please let me know. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] freight car lettering Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:42:49 -0400 Circle Keystone is the way to go. Shadow keystone was introduced in 1954. Block letters (plain keystone) was even later. Rob S. from the parking lot of the Station Mall... ---------------------- http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of tqpj6 > Sent: Friday, October 02, 1998 8:49 AM > To: PRR-TALK > Subject: [PRR] freight car lettering > > > Please Help, > Im modeling the late steam, early diesel era post WWII to 1950. > Im confused > by the different lettering options available. Should i use circle > keystone, shadow keystone, block letters, or a combination? > > Please help > > walt > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] X29 Variants Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:42:43 -0400 My answers are interspersed below after the <======= Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 1:18 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] X29 Variants > > > In reviewing the many variants of the X-29 that Red Caboose offers, I'd > like to know the eras applicable to each scheme. > > Obviously, any scheme could last to eternity, but when did the following > first appear: > > "Merchandise Service" > "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 > "Railway Express Agency" > "Shadow Keystone" <====== 1954 > > Though not showing on the Red Caboose web site at present, I have seen > these in hobby shops: > > "Calendar Numbers" <====== This was the original shadow keysone scheme. Red caboose makes these. I think 4 out of the 12 shadow keystone cars have calander numbers. > "Don't Stand Me Still" <---I think I saw a post-WWII reference for > this one. <====== This was only on the X29D rebuilds. Supposedly coming soon from CB&T shops. > > Are/were there any others offered by Red Caboose? <==== don't think so. They are supposed to do the dreadnaught end version of the car eventually though. > > Are/were there other prototype schemes? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:38:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Gripp, William [NCSUS] wrote: > Actually as I understand it, P1K uses pre-existing shells on P2K quality > drives. The F3 shell is supposedly the same one that has been around for > years. Several reviews have stated that it's a high caliber of mold-work, and the only complaint I've seen is it has molded-on grabs instead of none at all. The chicken wire (and the rest of the unit) are supposed to be at least as good as Stewart -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:52:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants (reply) Jerry, My oh my we must bring you up to speed! In a message dated 10/3/98 5:16:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << In reviewing the many variants of the X-29 that Red Caboose offers, I'd like to know the eras applicable to each scheme. Obviously, any scheme could last to eternity, but when did the following first appear: <"Merchandise Service"> There were three Merchandise Service schemes I have seen photo evidence of "basic" X-29's in 2 of three. < "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was W.W.II @ 1941> I think that they lost the slogan after W.W.II but when exactly is a good question. <"Railway Express Agency"> The scheme hit around 1940 and lasted until it was repainted or wore off. < "Shadow Keystone"> This scheme was introduced in Feb. 1954 wit the "stylized calendar lettering" and was modified in July to return to the serif lettering and numerals. Then it continued to evolve until 1962 with the introduction of the "bare bones" Keystone. < Though not showing on the Red Caboose web site at present, I have seen these in hobby shops:> < "Calendar Numbers"> That works! < "Don't Stand Me Still" <---I think I saw a post-WWII reference for this one.> If they did this slogan on a standard X-29 then I would love to see photo evidence of it as this was introduced on the X-29D rebuild program in 1954 (see my Mainline Modeler article) so how it would end up on a Red Caboose X-29? SHOW ME THE PHOTO's! BTW I understand that the old Front Range dies are being reworked by Red Caboose and the underframe is to be corrected as well as other things and I trying to get hem to add the post 1952 Murphy diagonal panel roof with the overhang on the sides and end. RC has covered most and the different side sheathing too. My brother Ed is doing very comprehensive research on the X-29 that will likely dwarf my past efforts in Mainline. I have identified 3 different underframe drawings and I think his research has found evidence of more based on a few different X-29's that he and Mark Kirlick and Mike Bradley have found and are photoing now. They have taken several rolls of film on just the underframe. It is a couple of ex--mail service/passenger X-29's now in work service. Now if we preserve anything we need to preserve these 2 cars. 2 of over 21,000! Are/were there other prototype schemes? Jerry, just scan through the Morning Sun books and you will be surprised at was is out there. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:45:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Hey yuze gize, I got my first look at the F-3A by our favorite, Life Like. I cannot believe the level of detail available in that price range (I found them at $39.95 -- no tax in Oregon). The detail was very nice not overstated and the chicken wire is tops. I hate the pilot and number boards they are wrong and no one has mentioned it. But, the good news for us SPF's they need to be changed out anyway. Beside that the truck journal may appear to be wrong but there is a good picture by the late Jack Hahn Jr. in NOV/DEC `93 issue of Diesel Era of 9500A & 9507A that gives us a good excuse to have a pair. The upgrades are simple, the cost is reasonable, the question is what is the best price? Anyone know what M. B. Klein selling them for? Well, I think I talked myself into a set knowing that it may be a variation to difficult to duplicate even with the new INTERMOUNTAIN and ATHEARN / HIGHLINER coming out. And I have heard that Stewart is talking of rerunning his, no that I do not understand, the KATO drive is not that good! Remember to that most of these early F-3's were of the road as trade-in's in 1962. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 01:25:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants Tom and all, A couple of corrections. In a message dated 10/3/98 3:29:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << Some of these may be more applicable to the X-29B rebuilds (with new 10' high steel bodies between 1948 and 1954 that updated these boxes to the 1944 AAR standards.>> The interior heights were 10' 6". << Greg Martin has a story in the November 1992 Mainline Modeler about using the McKean kit for an X-29B but also notes that there was a Sunshine resin kit offered. In the December 1992 MM is a prototype story on the X-29B with a drawing of the original Merchandise Service scheme, Circle Keystone with Aluminum stripe outlined in white by Robert Hundman>> I think that the underframe drawings are wrong ( I need to recheck them) as they show the "UN-rebuilt" underframe and my directions for the underframe are correct, but I have never examined the Sunshine underframe so I dare not comment but it may be wrong. Also Martin Loftin and I disagree on the roof (at least in the beginning of the production) but my efforts were supported by Richard Burg, these cars went into production at the same time as the X-26C. << "Railway Express Agency,": "Buy War Bonds" and the simple Roadname only steam- era scheme definitely. The war didn't start until December 1941 so any wartime propaganda would be 1942 or later. 1942 and early 1943 would be the time for this scheme to be shiny.>> There were three Merchandise Service schemes. The aforementioned "Circle Keystone with Aluminum stripe began in 1948. This was later simplified by painting the stripe all white. In 1954 when the Shadow Keystone was adopted, the stripe became all white and was broken for the shadow keystone with the break in the stripe matching the sides of the keystone. The PRR Compendium shows this scheme for the X-26C, X29, X-29B, X40B and X41B and for the X29. This lasted from 1954 until the service fizzled out sometime about 1958. Roadname only pre-1927 Roadname underline 1927-1947 Circle Keystone in effect (generally) 1947-1954.>> The "Keystone on/in the Ball" (circle keystone? Were is the circle, it is a white ball!) emblem/herald appeared in May of 1931. << Shadow Keystone in effect (generally) 1954-1961 1954-1960 Roadname spelled out on car side at opposite end from herald and Pennsy-style car data 1960-1961 Reporting marks on car side at opposite end from herald, AAR-style car data. Railway Express Agency, according to PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 were more than 1,200 X29 and X29A boxes rebuilt for headend service between 1924-1934. 1924-1947 Steam-era scheme, lettering of roadname and REA name only. 1947-1954 Circle Keystone painted above REA name PRR compendium shows no post 1954 REA scheme. Lines West Forever! Tom V. >> Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST forever too! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RailFest & BP20's Date: Sun, 4 Oct 98 10:33:15 -0400 From: Jerry RailFest report: Seemed like lower attendence than last year. Was colder...high 50's. Rained lightly most of the afternoon. PSU lost. More rail traffic than last year...tons of it! Nice to have 22 for dinner at Hoss's...and Carl arranged a birthday cake for my daughter Ashley...many thanks. I had the Miracle Castings BP20 shell on hand for review. I'll comment on details vs. photos in a later post, but I'd appreciate it if those who handled it yesterday would chime in with their impressions. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:40:05 Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60's Hi everyone, With respect to the BM-60 class, Andy wrote: > I do know that they ran on the LIRR as well. I think > I have a photo of one on > the LI in the 50s. I have never found any > record of their presence on the PRR > in any era I am interested in. The PRR > either sold them all early or only built > them for its affiliates. This topic was discussed some time back on the Passenger Car List. Here is what I wrote at the time - basically, I agree with Andy's statement. I'll add that I do know that two BM-60 cars were built for the LIRR. There was a photo of one of these cars (in MTA paint, in work service) in a back issue of MR. Sorry, I don't recall which issue. > Hi Jim & PCL list members, > > Jim wrote: > > > > I model N&W. Most of their early steel cars were > > built by Bethlehem. Some > > of these designs were similar and/or shared with PRR. The backbone of > > their coach fleet was the Pg coaches, several of which were sold to PRR > > prior to the 1964(?) World's Fair. > > > > So I would be interested in any N&W models that might be produced. > > > > Jim Brewer > You are absolutely correct on this "cross-polination" > which occured with the PRR and the N&W. One odd example which > comes to my mind right off is the PRR class MB-60. This was a 60-foot > head-end car with a 15-foot mail section, the > remainder was a baggage/express section. It was basically > a small modification on the PRR class B60 > design, adding a mail section to what was PRR's standard > baggage/express car. Odd part is, although the BM60 was a > PRR design, seemingly none were ever built for the PRR. Instead, > two were built for subsidiary LIRR and an unknown number were > built by or for the N&W! The "N&W Handbook" by Wiley > shows a photo of N&W 1429, class MS3, which was probably > one of these cars. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Subscription Cleanup Date: Sun, 4 Oct 98 10:26:45 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/3/98 1:44 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: >Could not deliver message (ID=223577) to remote account >'Richard.Tower@ibm.net'. >Remote server returned error: 550 Mailbox not found (user unknown). Richard Tower has been removed from the list subscription database. His (prior) server may have been reposting his messages to the senders or CC'ers. Stan (of RailPix) has also been removed. His server is now returning "user unknown". I have removed a few other subscribers who are constantly returning "mailbox full" messages. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:08:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X 29 paint and lettering The Circle Keystone logo was used from Jan. 1. 1930 through Jan. 1, 1954 when it was replaced with the shadow Keystone. The shadow Keystone was used until Sept. 1961 when it was replaced by the plain Keystone. For a complete history of PRR freight car painting schemes and variations of the major schemes see the Summer 1988 edition of The Keystone. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] X 29 paint and lettering Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:15:00 -0700 I am not an expert but I would like to question the dates of 1947-1954 for the ball (circle) keystone on X 29 boxcars. Are you speaking of just X-29 cars or all cars. If memory serves I have read literature and viewed videos of cars as early as the 1930s with the ball keystone. Could you please clarify and possibly support your statement with your sources. Certainly by the early 1940s the ball keystone was very common. In fact so common you rarely see a car without it. Thanks, Greg Stone PRRTHS member interest in the P&E/PRR Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:08:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Boxcar Lettering Greg, Tom, and others, Can you help me out. I see some dates that I think are different from Brady McGuire's Keystone article on PRR boxcar lettering (Vol. 21 no. 2, Summer 1988). Any research that alters these application dates interests me for three reasons: 1. I use that article for general reference constantly, and have assumed it's correct. 2. Some of the photos used as database for that article are mine, and I'm interested in any errors we may have introduced, and 3. I'm currently trying to write a similar article on phases as applied to the PRR covered hopper. For all those reasons, I'm vitally interested in correcting/extending this info. And one of the things that Brady points out in his article is that the dates offered were based on a finite group of pictures he had studied, so they are subject to change based on new info. > << "Railway Express Agency," Brady shows 1930-1954, in other words, the whole circle keystone era. I can add that what pictures I've seen were always the same Roman typeface, as an obvious addition to the CK scheme. > There were three Merchandise Service schemes. The aforementioned "Circle > Keystone with Aluminum stripe" began in 1948. Brady dates MS1 9/1947 to 1/1950, but qualifies the 1/1951 enddate with a question mark. >This was later simplified by > painting the stripe all white. Brady dates MS2 1/50 to 5/1954. >In 1954 when the Shadow Keystone was > adopted, > the stripe became all white and was broken for the shadow keystone with the > break in the stripe matching the sides of the keystone. The PRR Compendium > shows this scheme for the X-26C, X29, X-29B, X40B and X41B and for the X29. > This lasted from 1954 until the service fizzled out sometime about 1958. Agrees with Brady's 5/1954-11/57? > Now I believe you move to the regular lettering schemes. Brady's observations start with four different lettering layouts which preceded standard use of the circle keystone (CK) in 1930. These "No Keystone" phases were: NK1 1875-1896 P.R.R. with periods NK2 1898-1906 P.R.R. and PENNSYLVANIA (the latter underlined with a bar) NK3 4/1906-4/1926 PENNSYLVANIA over bar over number NK4 4/1926-1/1930 bar over PENNSYLVANIA over number over bar CK 1/1930-1/1954 just add a circle keystone to NK4 Maybe it's an obvious point, but the lettering style in the CK scheme is exactly the same as NK2 through NK4 (I'm not positive about NK1). Thus, decals for CK can be used for most earlier paint schemes, too. Talk about tradition - much of the lettering on a 1953 car could have used 1906 stencils! So: > Roadname only pre-1927 ?? > Roadname underline 1927-1947 really, underlined in NK2 and NK3 thus 1906-1926 > Circle Keystone in effect (generally) 1947-1954.>> CK starts 1930, goes unchanged at least through 1953 > The "Keystone on/in the Ball" (circle keystone? Were is the circle, it is > a white ball!) emblem/herald appeared in May of 1931. CK starts 1930, goes unchanged to 1954 > > << Shadow Keystone in effect (generally) 1954-1961 > 1954-1960 Roadname spelled out on car side at opposite end from herald and > Pennsy-style car data Yes. Used in SK1a, SK1b, SK2a, and SK2b from 2/1954 to 6/1961. Note that SK1a (2/1954-6/1954) used the "calendar script" style numbers. The tiny order of X48's (only PS-1's the Pennsy bought) came in SK1a. SK1b (used a more familiar serifed number. Both SK1a and SK1b distributed data in horizontal lines along the lower side of the car. BTW, this was about as far away from recommended AAR practice as you could get, but the Pennsy got away with it for almost 4 years, and in a period when masses of new cars and rebuilds joined the fleet. > 1960-1961 Reporting marks on car side at opposite end from herald, AAR- > style car data. SK2a 11/1957-6/1960 serif-style PRR & numbers SK2b 6/1960-6/1961 plain-style PRR & numbers (actually, these look like a reprise of Futura lettering to me). Besides (for the first time in many years) using "PRR" for the reporting mark on the side of the car, the SK2a and SK2b stack data vertically again. > > Railway Express Agency, according to PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 were more than > 1,200 X29 and X29A boxes rebuilt for headend service between 1924-1934. > 1924-1947 Steam-era scheme, lettering of roadname and REA name only. Suggests that "Railway Express Agency" markings preceded the 1930 advent of CK. Can we verify? The color guide caption says only that this is a pre-1954 marking. > 1947-1954 Circle Keystone painted above REA name Seems strange that circle keystone joined the REA name 17 years after its application to other equipment. OTOH, this is passenger equipment, so practice may vary from freight equipment. Can we verify? > PRR compendium shows no post 1954 REA scheme. >From what I've observed, the post-1954 paint was the same as for freight cars, except that the car number continued to be 4-digit. For boxcars OR cabooses, this is still a dead giveaway that the bearer is in REA/express/passenger service. One interesting exception to the "same as" rule is that this "passenger" scheme often omitted some or all of the dimensional data. And in at least one case (PRR 4892, shown on p75 of PRR Color Guide Vol. 1), the car is obviously painted with an SK2b stencil (futura PRR and 4892), but omits not only the dimensional data under the shaded keystone, but also the large PENNSYLVANIA that normally appears to the left of the door. > > Lines West Forever! > Tom V. >> > > Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST forever too! > And one more question -- What the hell are us three LWFs (Lines West Fans) doing hashing this out:? May your cars always be accurately lettered, and may the SOBs that know the difference keep quiet when they visit. Rick Tipton - hiding out from the prototype police in Louisville KY