Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:07:14 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Truc Train trailers Content-Length: 1159 Ok folks... Since some of us have been chatting about Pennsy trailers.... Does anyone have any idea what happened to the Truc Train trailers used by Pennsy after the merger...i assume most were still used in PC's trailer train service and later retired when they got too old. But did any make it on to the Conrail trailer pool and are any still in service with Conrail? As a side note here...I've seen two former REA trailers (under a different owner and slightly relettered) down here passing through virginia.those two had the black ownership letters up in the front side corner and back on the doors.) Well i'll let this fly and see what happens. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 09:25:03 -0400 Content-Length: 1236 Is this Williams Grove, Utah, Williams Grove, Sussex Eng, or the Williams Grove outside of Singapore? - -------- Just thought the group would like to know that ex-PRR 0-6-0 B4a #643 operated on Sunday August 30, and will again operate Wed-Mon of this week. We will most likely be pulling passangers (and giving cab rides) Thursday and Friday evenings, and all day Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. 643 is operated in conjunction with the steam show at Williams Grove amusment park every August. Tom von Trott - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:58:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week Content-Length: 2402 Williams Grove Park & Speedway Amusement Park/Auto Racetrack Wooden roller coaster, steam train, waterslides, flea market, miniature golf, campground One Park Ave. Mechanicsburg, PA 17055-5341 (717) 697-8266 > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 09:25:03 -0400 > List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. > List-Subscribe: > List-Digest: > List-Unsubscribe: > > Is this Williams Grove, Utah, Williams Grove, Sussex Eng, or the Williams Grove > outside of Singapore? > > - -------- > Just thought the group would like to know that ex-PRR 0-6-0 B4a #643 operated > on Sunday August 30, and will again operate Wed-Mon of this week. We will most > likely be pulling passangers (and giving cab rides) Thursday and Friday > evenings, and all day Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. 643 is operated in > conjunction with the steam show at Williams Grove amusment park every August. > > Tom von Trott > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > - ----------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 10:44:08 EDT From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week Content-Length: 1790 Williams Grove, Pennsylvania. Off of Rt 15 about 10 miles southwest of Harrisburg. ------------- Original Text From: Andrew S. Miller , on 9/1/98 9:25 AM: Is this Williams Grove, Utah, Williams Grove, Sussex Eng, or the Williams Grove outside of Singapore? - -------- Just thought the group would like to know that ex-PRR 0-6-0 B4a #643 operated on Sunday August 30, and will again operate Wed-Mon of this week. We will most likely be pulling passangers (and giving cab rides) Thursday and Friday evenings, and all day Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. 643 is operated in conjunction with the steam show at Williams Grove amusment park every August. Tom von Trott - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week Date: Tue, 01 Sep 98 10:52:18 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 574 I have some photos of the 643 running last year on my web site. I don't remember the exact link but if you got to http://prr.railfan.net the link to the Williams Grove photos is near the bottom of the list. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 11:49:17 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1362 The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the various "phases". (Very helpful!) However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? The GP7 first appeared in 1949; the SD9 in 1954. Both appear to be 1500HP units. I am modeling Fall 1954, as many of you are aware, and I have the two P2K SD9's and am planning to purchase the upcoming three GP7's. (For GP9's, I have to wait for Phase I's!) Any thoughts? (Tom V. previously pointed out that the PRR only purchased two SD7's which were both assigned to Lines West.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 12:09:52 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1226 On 1 Sep, Jerry wrote: > The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which > compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the > various "phases". (Very helpful!) Yes! > However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? Umm, Jerry, the main difference between GP-anything and SD-anything is that GPs are four-axle and SDs are six-axle. > (Tom V. previously pointed out that the PRR only purchased two SD7's > which were both assigned to Lines West.) Madison Hill, to be exact; they were superweighted and otherwise modified. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:10:41 -0400 Content-Length: 1095 > The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which > compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the > various "phases". (Very helpful!) > > However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? > The SD9 was 1750 hp like the GP9. The SD7 and GP7 were both 1500 hp. The GP7 and GP9 ride on two B trucks (two axles, two traction motors). The SD7 and SD9 ride on two C trucks (three axles, three traction motors). The SDs are longer than their GP counter parts and have two fans above the dynamic brake blister where the GPs have only one (for those units with d/bs. > The GP7 first appeared in 1949; the SD9 in 1954. Both appear to be 1500HP > units. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:06:56 -0400 Content-Length: 2095 Jerry, This seems a little too obvious, but I'll post it anyway. A GP7 has four wheel trucks and the SD9 has six wheel trucks. I'm bracing for the replies! Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 11:55 AM Subject: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 >The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which >compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the >various "phases". (Very helpful!) > >However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? > >The GP7 first appeared in 1949; the SD9 in 1954. Both appear to be 1500HP >units. > >I am modeling Fall 1954, as many of you are aware, and I have the two P2K >SD9's and am planning to purchase the upcoming three GP7's. (For GP9's, I >have to wait for Phase I's!) > >Any thoughts? > >(Tom V. previously pointed out that the PRR only purchased two SD7's >which were both assigned to Lines West.) > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com >The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 13:33:28 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1204 On 9/1/98 12:21 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >>However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? > >Aside from the number of axles? Well done. I've received this answer about a dozen times. Of course, this was only a test...to demonstrate to the list "newbies" that any question, regardless of how basic, is fair game with this crowd. ;-) Okay, I don't know my engines but the response was excellent. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:21:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Content-Length: 976 In a message dated 9/1/98 8:49:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the various "phases". (Very helpful!) However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? ****250 more HP and two more powered axles; roof bulge near rear top of unit; utilizes EMD 567-C engine, etc...*** The GP7 first appeared in 1949; the SD9 in 1954. Both appear to be 1500HP units. >> ************no...either " 9 " is 1750 HP...........Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:21:28 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Content-Length: 1613 >However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? Aside from the number of axles? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE-Sept. Special is American Model Builders Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 13:01:53 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1213 Thanks to those who participated in the August "Merchandise Service" "special-of-the-month"...in support of the lists and web sites of DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM! September's special -- by popular request -- is American Model Builders. AMB offers structures, including the New Freedom Station, and passenger car kits. So here's your chance...20% off! For ordering information, see http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html Thank you for your support of this list and related PRR endeavors! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 15:48:08 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Content-Length: 2140 Howdy all: While up in the Ephrata area today, I had the chance to check things out. At the old Reading and Columbia station in downtown Ephrata is an N8 labeled PC 23210. It does have a PRR keystone on the side and you are invited to call a local number for a tour. I've called the answering machine and will let you know what information I get back. Up the road aways ( on PA 272 ) is the Doll House Express. They have 3 N5c's. Only one has a number on its exterior, 46173R. The store attendants did not know anything about the cars. They did attempt to contact the owner of the cars, however, he is out on vacation. They let a message with his daughter, and will contact me if he wants to talk to me about them. They also have several heavy weight RPOs. That's it for now. cos Roger Kirkpatrick wrote: > Hi, > > I have PRR 477231/CR 46163R listed in 2 places: > > Carlisle, OH, across from 453 Park Drive, and > > Ephrata, PA, Doll House Express, Rt 272. > > The car showed up in Carlilse a bit over a year ago and was reported in > Ephrata several years ago. This would allow for it to be the Ephrata > car sold and moved to Ohio 1 to 1.5 years ago. Anyone know? > > Also reported at Ephrata is CR 23210, ex-PRR 478030. However, the CR > caboose page indicates CR 23210 was PRR 478201? How about an opinion on > this one? > > Thanks, Roger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: New line of HW Cars Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 16:01:57 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2078 Fueling the recent rumors of a new line of heavyweight cars coming to market...that "someone is watching the passenger car list"... One early suspicion was that it would be Westerfield. That would be great...I hope it is. However, on a hunch, I checked out the web site of Those Classic Trains. Remember Bob Boyd? If he's still on this list, he's been quiet. Anyway, his site has been updated, including his plans for a line of modular, intermediate level, heavyweight passenger cars! However (take two), he has just started his "formal fundraising". He states he needs $237K to start business. Unfortunately, thus far he only has the $62K he is putting in...not to mention that $20K is reserved for "employee stock options". I hope Mr. Boyd does pull it off, but I remain extremely skeptical. It's already been two years since he first announced his plans. IMHO, the "best" solution would be for a company like Eastern Car Works to create "heavyweight core kits" (as they do already for lightweights) and let a company like Union Station Products offer a wealth of sides. Mark Meeks (of USP) is more than happy to offer new sides and already offers an abundance of PRR sides (see http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/). I have many under concurrent construction now, and they match the Pullman-Standard Library drawings perfectly. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 14:35:55 -0400 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR H-9, H-10 Tenders Content-Length: 1204 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > I just acquired an O scale H10 built from a Central Loco Works kit. I > am familiar with the tender commonly associated with it, a high coal > bunker tender known to us non-experts as a "Lines West" tender. > > This particular loco came with a small, low side tender similar to the > one shown in _Pennsy Power I_ on page 37, coupled to H8sb 1288. Has the > same trucks. Would this tender have been used with the H9 or H10? The tender shown with H8sb 1288 was Class 70F70a. It was the most common tender class used with locomotive classes H8sb and H9s. A few were used on Class H10s locomotives having 70 in. deck height (i.e. some of those rebuilt from Class H8a). So, H9s was by far the more common locomotive class for this tender than H10s, but either is possible. Bob Johnson ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 15:45:00 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] CRRM Book Sale Content-Length: 655 Hi, The Colorado RR Museum has/had a book for sale of possible interest. Price includes postage & handling. Out of state: 800-365-6263; in Colorado: 303-279-4591. Crossroads of Commerce, the PRR Calendar Art, $50.04, 10 copies. Use my name and pay an extra dollar. Good Luck, Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] St. Louis Main From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:11:41 EDT Content-Length: 825 Can anyone give me any info on PRR's St. Louis main. I especially would like info on the Limedale area & Indianapolis. Thanks alot. E.J. Caylor Ghost Railroads of Indiana members.theglobe.com/Caylorman/prrmon.html _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HGordon552@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:48:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: New line of HW Cars Content-Length: 504 New to group.Request the best source of information on the S-1.Photos at the 1939 worlds fair,etc.Also source for drawings of S-1 Thanks, Harold ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:01:31 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: [PRR] Crosby Articles Content-Length: 1480 I'm trying to collect all of the articles written by the late John Crosby (retired PRR enginecrew member) for Trains magazine. I have just ordered a couple from the late 70's from Trains back issues, but I am still missing the following: July 1972, page 26, "Day in the Life of a Road Foreman" November, 1974, page 43, "Extra Board Diary" If anyone can sell me these issues, or photocopy the articles I would be happy to pay them for postage and copying, and/or trade them any of his article that he or she might not have. A complete index of his articles follows. July 1972, page 26, "Day in the Life of a Road Foreman" November, 1974, page 43, "Extra Board Diary" March, 1975, page 42, "Second Engine" April, 1977, page 30, "You Win, Al" August, 1978, Page 66, "Featherbraining" November, 1979, Page 58, "Hooking At Monroeville" August, 1993, Page 54, "Last Chance" Also, does anyone know if he ever wrote any articles for any other magazines besides Trains? Tom von Trott PS sorry for not giving better location information on 643 operations, and thanks to those that did. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:24:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Content-Length: 491 Anyone ever seen the fully restored N8 in New Castle, PA? On exhibit at the Penn Ohio railway Museum and owned by Doc Zines. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 21:11:25 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Content-Length: 826 Howdy all: Rick, do you have a location on the cabin. Check the Conrail Cabin page and there is no reference to an N8 at New Castle. It does list one at Wilmington DE. Check out http://www.geocities.com/~wolfgangs/index.htm . If you can get me close, I'll go check it out. cos TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > Anyone ever seen the fully restored N8 in New Castle, PA? On exhibit at the > Penn Ohio railway Museum and owned by Doc Zines. > > Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:48:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] South Penn Model RR Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1326 The South Penn Model RR is located in Lancaster, Pa in the basement of an old tobacco warehouse on North Charlotte Street, directly across from Snavely Lumber. Meetings are Wednesday evenings around 7:00. Guests are welcome. Take US 30 to the Harrisburg Pike exit follow Harrisburg Pike toward Franklin & Marshall College and Lancaster, pass the college [recognized by a lot of un- needed traffic lights], as soon as you see the Conrail mini engine terminal turn left and the building is on your right; no sign, white door, the red basement door is not used--knock louldly. All benchwork is complete and track is starting up the curve. Open house will be Thanksgiving weekend through Christmas. New members are welcome but all operations will be DCC. For more info call me at my law office in mornings 717 392-3787, Lancaster Junction Model Trains in afternoon 717 291-2100 [2-10-0 that is] or home in evenings 717 392-8134. Jerry Finefrock jcfmmf@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:13:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Accurail HO auto racks Content-Length: 612 I see that the new Accurail 2 and 3 level auto racks will both be offered decorated with "the Keystone"... anyone knowledgeable care to comment on how their model stacks up against the real thing? http://www.elnet.com/~accurail/autorack.htm -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR H-9, H-10 Tenders Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:00:27 -0500 Content-Length: 2351 Steve--The low side tender you mentioned would probably be more common with an H8 or H9. Besides the well known "Lines West" tender, there were some other choices for the H10 depending on the era and whether you are modeling lines west or the east. (However, during the 50's, the east/lines west distinctions blurred a lot.) Quick visual descriptions of three possible tenders: (1) similar to the short tender used with the I1, but slightly smaller, used on H10's with and without stoker; (2) similar to the tender usually used with L1's, but slightly shorter, also with and without stoker; (3) similar to the "lines west" tender but with a rounded hood; I have seen several of these in videos showing Columbus. I have no idea what is available in O scale. None of this should be taken to mean the tender you have is incorrect; there were a lot of H10's with a lot of different tenders. Good luck. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Bartlett To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 3:02 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR H-9, H-10 Tenders >I just acquired an O scale H10 built from a Central Loco Works kit. I >am familiar with the tender commonly associated with it, a high coal >bunker tender known to us non-experts as a "Lines West" tender. > > This particular loco came with a small, low side tender similar to the >one shown in _Pennsy Power I_ on page 37, coupled to H8sb 1288. Has the >same trucks. Would this tender have been used with the H9 or H10? > >Thank you for any help, > >Steve Bartlett > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 02:20:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] C&O hoppers in interchange? Content-Length: 1346 In a message dated 8/28/98 2:32:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dennis@bbn.com writes: << Can anybody tell me or point me to a source to discover whether the PRR carried C&O hoppers in any volume? If not, does anybody want twelve C&O offset quads? I'm unwilling to sell them still marked PRR. >> If you model any of the PRR mains radiating from Cincinnati or the Sandusky Branch you'd definitely fnd some C&O hoppers. As it was a road generally allied with the B&O, I don't know how many. The PRR did interchange with the C&O at Cincinnati. Moving coal north on the Little Miami system and the Sandusky branch to the massive automated Hullett unloaders at dockside on Lake Erie's Sandusky Bay was major source of traffic north from Cincinnati through Xenia, Columbus, Delaware & Marion. I'd suspect you'd find far more cars of roads allied with the PRR like the L&N VGN and SRR, or which were wholly-owned or controlled subsidiaries such as the N&W, ACL, SAL. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 02:48:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] site info Content-Length: 1100 Dear E.J., East of Indy I could've helped you as I'm building up a collection on the Columbus Division. I wish you luck. I'd like to know more about the lines west of Indy like the Terre Haute & Indianapolis St. Louis, the St. Louis, Vandalia & Terre Haute, the Terre Haute & Peoria and the Indianpolis & Vincennes. If I remeber right there's someone out there modeling the Indianapolis & Frankfort, a line built in the 1920s to carry Chicago-bound coal heading north from the L&N and SRR at Louisville. It ran from the Panhandle main at Ben Davis, Ind., on the western edge of Marion County north to the Terre Haute & Logansport at Franklin. Good Luck. Stay Tuned. I'll be rescheduling the Lines West Fans Fest soon. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:02:47 EDT Subject: PRR SD7 details was Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Content-Length: 1341 In a message dated 9/1/98 11:49:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << I am modeling Fall 1954, as many of you are aware, and I have the two P2K SD9's and am planning to purchase the upcoming three GP7's. (For GP9's, I have to wait for Phase I's!) >> I'm glad I resisted the urge to sarcastically point out the difference between B-B and C-C trucks. The main differences are a longer wheel base to accomodate the bigger truck, ladders on the ends of the long hood, marker light details and without digging my correctly numbered PK2 SD7 (8588, the other is 8589), I believe the rooftop fan arrangement is different with the SD's having more fans (as they had more traction motors and wheels to dynamiclly brake.). Speaking of the Pennsy's SD7s, they were specially equipped with "track washers," water nozzles aimed ahead of the engines to hose fallen traction robbing leaves off the rails. Does anybody out there have a shot of these? Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:09:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Truc Train trailers Content-Length: 2164 In a message dated 9/1/98 12:38:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bubbles@visi.net writes: > Ok folks... > > Since some of us have been chatting about Pennsy trailers.... > Does anyone have any idea what happened to the Truc Train trailers > used by Pennsy after the merger...i assume most were still used in > PC's trailer train service and later retired when they got too old. > But did any make it on to the Conrail trailer pool and are any > still in service with Conrail? As a side note here...I've seen two > former REA trailers (under a different owner and slightly relettered) > down here passing through virginia.those two had the black ownership > letters up in the front side corner and back on the doors.) > Well i'll let this fly and see what happens. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > Hank, I'm going to be real interested in an informed answer to this question, since I don't have one . However, as a distribution consultant, I expect the answer to come out that most PRRZ trailers didn't make it to Conrail. My reasoning is based on the principle that in that era, most trailers stayed in their original fleet about 7 years, and then were replaced. This is partly due to wear and tear, but mostly due to the magic of finance and depreciation. The newest PRRZ trailers would have to stay around 8 years and 1 month to make it to Conrail. In the same period, distribution people were becoming merciless about widening trailers to 102 if not 106 inches inside (more boxes per trailer), and were pushing hard on the 40 foot length. I'd bet anything left under 40 feet lived a really short and unproductive life after 1972. Rick Tipton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:09:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] St. Louis Main Content-Length: 1599 Can anyone give me any info on PRR's St. Louis main. I especially would like info on the Limedale area & Indianapolis. Thanks alot. E.J. Caylor Hi E.J.: Wow - that's a wide open subject, being the whole of the St. Louis Division plus a good piece of the Indianapolis Division. I'm interested in these areas, too, and actively fanned there once upon a time in PC days. There's a lot of material available, plus slides, etc. Can you cite what sources you have on hand, and I'll try to add to your list. For example, have you read James J. D. Lynch's articles on these two divisions in the Keystone? Have you seen the late Don Ball's pictures of Limedale and Indianapolis in his color book The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s? Also, depending on your location, you can tap into the collections of various Lines West fans. And later this winter (postponed from October 17, alas) there should be a Lines West Fans Fest in Xenia OH. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] mail order Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:21:28 -0500 Content-Length: 559 Can anyone recommend a good mail order hobby store. Im in the army stationed in Panama and Im having a terrible time with the store Im currently trying to mail order from. Thank You SSG McWilliams ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 08:43:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] New video Content-Length: 819 Just a note to mention a new video, Vignettes of the Pennsylvania Railroad,Vol. 1, with films of William P. Price, Vic Ketcham, and Karl Walters, by Clear Block Productions. In addition to the ususal Middle Division and NY&LB stuff, there is some interesting footage around Columbus, Ohio for the Lines West-Panhandle fans, which is a welcome change. 1952-1966 A good addition to my library, IMHO. $35 list, $29 at GATS. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Call for Event Information Date: Wed, 2 Sep 98 09:03:31 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1105 As Open House season for model railroad clubs approaches, I'd like to invite PRR entities to submit schedule information for shows, open houses, other related events, etc., for posting on the Timetable page of "Keystone Crossings". Please supply via e-mail in simple paragraph format. I'll do all the HTML coding. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.html for example entries. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:08:56 EDT Subject: Re: PRR SD7 details was Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Content-Length: 2717 In a message dated 9/2/98 3:24:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > I > believe the rooftop fan arrangement is different with the SD's having more > fans (as they had more traction motors and wheels to dynamiclly brake.). Correct - the layout of the EMD road switcher or "hood unit" carbody filled the roof with radiator fans on the end away from the cab (this is the "front" for PRR units). Dynamic braking is electrical braking, using the traction motors as generators to hold back the train. This current created is then used to heat up a large bank of resistors, and the d/b fans blow the hot air away. Since the "toaster" grids used in dynamic braking give off a lot of heat, you don't want them next to the cab. This left only the roof right over the diesel engine ("prime mover") as a location for the dynamic braking blister, and there it had to be wrapped around the exhaust stacks. Thus for all the EMD hoods that are equipped with dynamic braking (and thus rooftop d/b blisters), the 4-motors have one d/b fan, and the 6-motors (with 150% of the dynamic braking current to dissipate in the giant toaster grids) have two. This practice started with the first SD, the SD7, and continued through the SD9, SD24 (non-Pennsy), SD35, SD40, SD45, and all the 1970-s era Dash 2's (e.g. SD40-2). So that definitely covers all PRR and PC usage into Conrail. PC's SD38's were bought for low speed hump service, and so did not have dynamics. Bottom line, if you looked across the tops of a bunch of units, and couldn't see the trucks, you still knew the 6-motors by the dual fans on the d/b blister. BTW, not to turn us all into diesel spotters, but the original hood unit roof fans (db and radiator), were cap top type, inherited from the F unit and the E unit. This slight dome over the fan hubs is thus a spotting feature of early first generation hoods. Of course, in later years a cap top fan could be replaced with something else, but mostly they stayed as-built. Check it out on your models. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:08:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] St. Louis Main Content-Length: 849 In a message dated 9/1/98 7:29:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caylorman@juno.com writes: > Ghost Railroads of Indiana I don't know if this is an intended reference to the classic book, but I have heard from a reliable source that Ghost Railroads of Indiana (also GR of Kentucky and GR of Tennessee) is about to be reprinted. This is good news, as these volumes have become extremely scarce and expensive, and most libraries around here have long since had their copies go "missing". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:28:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Accurail HO auto racks Content-Length: 1479 Knowing the quality and accuracy of Accurail products (no pun intended), I think these cars will be an excellent addition to anybody who models the 60's and 70's. I have been waiting a long time for these cars and if Walthers ever does their Cornerstone automobile assembly plant there will be a perfect fit. Derrick J Brashear on 09/01/98 09:13:24 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] Accurail HO auto racks I see that the new Accurail 2 and 3 level auto racks will both be offered decorated with "the Keystone"... anyone knowledgeable care to comment on how their model stacks up against the real thing? http://www.elnet.com/~accurail/autorack.htm -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 98 10:45:58 CST Subject: Re: [PRR] Crosby Articles Content-Length: 1050 Hi, all, >I'm trying to collect all of the articles written by the late John Crosby= > (retired PRR enginecrew member) for Trains magazine. Blessings on you, Tom. I've always thought Crosby's writing was some of the best contemporary writing by a working rail. IMHO the "Second Engine" is a classic. It did more to convey the true feel of steam railroading in the grand manner than anything I have ever read. And his final piece, on his last T1 ride, is almost too good to be true - if only someone with a good movie camera had been there! PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:06:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] St. Louis Main Content-Length: 1041 ******just a quickie to Rick T. , Rick R., and all....thank you very much for the detailed EMD descriptions...!!!! Easier than digging out DSGuide, etc.....funny, how it started...I wrote in, " was this a test..?? "....hahhaha.......Same with our Signal SIG...lotsa newbies, and we are trying our hardest to reach them, not speak in " code ", but spell everything out with factual accuracy for all. Re: PRR TrucTrailers...I remember seeing re-lettered ones..PRR to PC; a few into CR. Someone had compiled a Trailer roster years ago..?? Dick Ross, do you have ?? Maybe Brady McGuire down in TX..??? Important to encourage our successors...!!!.....Thx again, Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:15:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order Content-Length: 704 ****For larger scales especially,and for all for service, I have found.... Trainworld, Brooklyn, Ny...cheap, fast, great. Give #, get stuff asap. Watts Train Shop, Indiana....same, and friendlier...( NOT New Yawkers...) San-Val, California.....excellent, can discuss items intelligently.!!! All advertise in MRer, etc...........Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:35:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght cars From: locoshop@juno.com Content-Length: 1182 Hello all, Just some input on the above subject item. Do not be thinking of Eastern Car Works or Westerfield. This is more along the lines of a styrene style kit the like of Proto 2000 freight cars with the plastic add on details and full underbody detail. These kits are to go together in under 4 hours with full details and full interiors. Price range being looked at $25-$35 each car. (I am NOT saying that LL P2K is bringing these out, it will just be a kit like their freight cars.) Jeremy Helms Southern Serves the South Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] FW: PRR Silver FS-Menu Holder, Coffee Pot & Supreme Set Date: Wed, 02 Sep 98 15:40:18 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1482 I saw this on the Railroadiana mailng list and thought that some folks on the list might be interested... I'm only the messenger, reply to AJSNGS@aol.com not to me! Rob ----- FORWARDED MESSAGE... Subject: [rrdiana] PRR Silver FS-Menu Holder, Coffee Pot & Supreme Set Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:37:42 -0400 (EDT) Resent-From: rrdiana@railnet.nshore.org Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:18:07 EDT From: AJSNGS@aol.com To: rrdiana@railnet.nshore.org I have the following PRR silver available: 1) Menu Holder by International Silver Broadway Pattern 05061, 1947 Nice large keystone on side $140 2) Coffee Pot by International Silver 061, 10 ounce, 1957 Same large keystone $135 3) Supreme Set by International Silver 982, 1929 marked on bottom of bowl. Also backstamped Property of Pennsylvania Railroad Company The silver ring that fits on the top is marked with a keystone $140 All are in excellent shape with no silver loss and the ususal light sink marks. 5 day return, less postage, if not satisfied. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:01:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order Content-Length: 572 I've had good experience with C & D Junction in Ashville, NY. Here is his address; ashtrain@servtech.com. His mail address is in the back of MR. The owners name is Dick Williams. Tell him I sent you. Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 19:07:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New video Content-Length: 1459 I brought that up in July. I carry Clear Block videos and can probably do better on the price for PRR-Talk people. Randy Bobspf@aol.com on 09/02/98 07:43:21 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] New video Just a note to mention a new video, Vignettes of the Pennsylvania Railroad,Vol. 1, with films of William P. Price, Vic Ketcham, and Karl Walters, by Clear Block Productions. In addition to the ususal Middle Division and NY&LB stuff, there is some interesting footage around Columbus, Ohio for the Lines West-Panhandle fans, which is a welcome change. 1952-1966 A good addition to my library, IMHO. $35 list, $29 at GATS. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 19:46:31 -0600 From: Edward Long Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order Content-Length: 623 Try Des Plaines Hobbies at 1468 Lee Street Des Plaines,IL 60018 (847) 297-2118 Ron,Sue, John and the rest of the gang will take good care of you ! They sell all scales and carry a large supply of RR books and publications call today and see..... Ed Long ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] "24 Hours at Harrisburg" Date: Wed, 2 Sep 98 21:18:48 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1822 I have added to my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" with data from the following sources: "Employee Timetable No. 6 - Philadelphia Division," issued April 25, 1954. This document provided passage times of freight trains on the "main line". (I am seeking the Employee Timetable No. 7 - Philadelphia Division, circa late 1954, exact date unknown, which will match the issue date of my other source documents. Notably absent from the current ETT is TrucTrain service, which was introduced in June, 1954 and included symbols LCL-1, LCL-2, and LCL-7. "Through Freight Train Schedules Between Principal Points," issued February 1, 1952. This docoment provided names and consist block information for some of the symbol freights. "Official Guide to the Railways," issued September, 1954. This docoment provided arrival and departure times for Philadelphia-Harrisburg commuter service and passenger trains to and from the west via the Cumberland Valley Branch. Still to come is a massive amount of data, including head end and actual car names from the "Makeup of Passenger Trains, New York Division," dated 2/1/54. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:47:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order Content-Length: 874 In a message dated 9/2/98 8:05:06 PM Central Daylight Time, hogr6683@earthlink.net writes: << Try Des Plaines Hobbies at 1468 Lee Street Des Plaines,IL 60018 (847) 297-2118 Ron,Sue, John and the rest of the gang will take good care of you ! They sell all scales and carry a large supply of RR books and publications call today and see..... >> And as I pointed out to one of the guys looking for a P2K E7 a while back, Ron is a Pennsy fan and keeps a pretty good stock. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:18:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1158 Dear Panama: Don't forget Star Hobby near Annapolis, MD. I have had good luck with him. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Financially Depleted Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway O > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:45:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order-Des Plains Content-Length: 615 Bob, Is Sawa's Polish resturant still there across the street from the depot? seems it was only a few doors down from the hobby shop, but i haven't been there in 10 years. Sure was worth a side trip out from downtown between Amtrak trains. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Sep 1956 22:44:02 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#28484326: PRR Content-Length: 1193 I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. I think these are the same as the Model Power units. Hard to find. Need work, but perhaps a good starting point. Title of item: PRR SHARNOSE A-B-A SET Seller: bulosch@cybergap.net Starts: 09/02/98 13:29:28 PDT Ends: 09/09/98 13:29:28 PDT Price: Currently $26.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=28484326 Item Description: This is very nice, custom painted PRR set by "Roco" Dark green with solid thin yellow or gold stripe . Horn broken off dumy A unit. A-powered, B-dummy, A-dummy. Looks like all the steps are off the B-unit. Buyer pays shipping and ins. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:46:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in interchange?) Content-Length: 2281 In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange with PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb question: can you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I know the exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in advance. >> << L&N = Louisville & Nashville VGN = Virginian SRR = Southern Railroad >> If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois Central interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be found regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to know a little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and business partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct competitors. >Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and competitors as I know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the entries PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western Business partners Louisville & Nashville L&N Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL Southern, SOU Missouri Pacific MP Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY Union Pacific UP New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Direct Competitors Baltimore & Ohuio B&O Chesepeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Systen NYC Michigan Central MC Cincinnati Northern Peoria & Eastern P&E Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) Have fun! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:26:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 3281 >> PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western An excellent list, but I think you mean Lehigh Valley instead of Lehigh & New England. LINESWEST@aol.com on 09/03/98 08:46:14 AM To: greglear@bellsouth.net cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in interchange?) In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange with PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb question: can you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I know the exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in advance. >> << L&N = Louisville & Nashville VGN = Virginian SRR = Southern Railroad >> If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois Central interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be found regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to know a little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and business partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct competitors. >Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and competitors as I know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the entries PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western Business partners Louisville & Nashville L&N Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL Southern, SOU Missouri Pacific MP Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY Union Pacific UP New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Direct Competitors Baltimore & Ohuio B&O Chesepeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Systen NYC Michigan Central MC Cincinnati Northern Peoria & Eastern P&E Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) Have fun! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:45:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 3281 >> PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western An excellent list, but I think you mean Lehigh Valley instead of Lehigh & New England. LINESWEST@aol.com on 09/03/98 08:46:14 AM To: greglear@bellsouth.net cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in interchange?) In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange with PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb question: can you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I know the exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in advance. >> << L&N = Louisville & Nashville VGN = Virginian SRR = Southern Railroad >> If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois Central interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be found regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to know a little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and business partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct competitors. >Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and competitors as I know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the entries PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western Business partners Louisville & Nashville L&N Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL Southern, SOU Missouri Pacific MP Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY Union Pacific UP New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Direct Competitors Baltimore & Ohuio B&O Chesepeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Systen NYC Michigan Central MC Cincinnati Northern Peoria & Eastern P&E Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) Have fun! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 10:30:28 EDT From: Subject: fwd: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in inte... Content-Length: 3783 This may be a dumb question but I've been known to ask stupid questions before. here goes. I've been following this thread about the likely hood of C&O hoppers being found in great numbers on PRR lines. My question is along the same line but froma different perspective. Was it common to find PRR freight cars (no specific type) on roads not affiliated with it. For example, would you find large numbers of PRR boxcars in California, New Mexico, Washington, Idaho, etc. Would hopper cars filled with anthracite coal mined in North Eastern PA find its way to distributors in northern tier states in those same PRR hoppers? And now for a humbling omission. I don't have a very clear idea of how the cars are delivered & tracked from point A to point Q and then back to point A again. Hey, don't laugh. I may be decent at building engines & rollingstock but I never said I understood how the big picture works. Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: , on 9/3/98 9:46 AM: To: SMTP@193SOG@PAMDT[] Cc: SMTP@193SOG@PAMDT[] In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange with PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb question: can you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I know the exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in advance. >> << L&N = Louisville & Nashville VGN = Virginian SRR = Southern Railroad >> If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois Central interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be found regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to know a little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and business partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct competitors. >Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and competitors as I know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the entries PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western Business partners Louisville & Nashville L&N Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL Southern, SOU Missouri Pacific MP Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY Union Pacific UP New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Direct Competitors Baltimore & Ohuio B&O Chesepeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Systen NYC Michigan Central MC Cincinnati Northern Peoria & Eastern P&E Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) Have fun! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:59:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 581 I remembered another railroad they were part owners of: the Richmond, Fredricksburg & Potomac RF&P. It is amazing how many railroads the Pennsy had dealings with and we have not included the Long Island on this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 12:26:01 -0400 From: "Robert G. McKeever, II" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 1387 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > > I remembered another railroad they were part owners of: the Richmond, > Fredricksburg & Potomac RF&P. It is amazing how many railroads the Pennsy > had dealings with and we have not included the Long Island on this list. PRR once owned down to Quantico, VA under the charter of the Alexandria and Fredericksburg. This became the Washington Southern. The six-way ownership of the RF&P was arrived at in 1901 (I think) as a means of assuring fair play for each of the connecting lines (B&O, C&O, PRR, SRR, ACL and SAL). The Washington Southern was merged into the RF&P by 1920. -- =================== Robert G. McKeever, II, KC4VDN rmckeever@psu.edu _____________________________ | ______ |_| | |_||_| | Richmond, Fredericksburg --------------------------|______ and Potomac Railroad ____________123___| | -------/ | | | 1834-1992 _________________|________|______| ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:48:49 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 2134 Hi all, This "Allies and Enemies List" has great potential! We'd like to see it develop into a chart that would show which RR's cars ran in concentration on which PRR lines. Continuing with hopper questions: Did most Berwind/White hoppers come off the branches out of Cresson or were there other areas where these were common? Would Pennsy have operated entire trains of BWCX hoppers from Cresson to Altoona or Pittsburgh? Where did Westmoreland hoppers primarily operate in quantity? Whole trains? As for "enemy" roads, a friend, who grew up in the area tells me that the Pennsy commonly hauled entire trains of NYC hoppers over parts of the Elmira Branch? Somewhere I read that the Pennsy interchanged hoppers loaded with ore with the B&LE. Fact of fiction? Primarily PRR hoppers, B&LE hoppers or a mix? If B&LE, where on the Pennsy did these B&LE hoppers travel? Which non-PRR hoppers would have traveled over the section from Altoona to Johnstown?, to Pittsburgh? Did the Conemaugh and Black Lick have any interchange with PRR in the Johnstown area? C&BL hoppers? Conventional wisdom, as I read it, has mostly said that hoppers "rarely" left home rails. Exceptions to this rule are numerous. I had planned to run only PRR hoppers in my operations but am taking a long second look at my fleet acquisition to determine if I need to mix in others for more proto accuracy. In N-Scale our hopper selection is more restricted than in HO and we'd like to be able to run the ConCor/Bachmann 4-bay offset-side hoppers repainted for roads that would have interchanged them with the PRR. For my own modeling I need to find a road that would have sent these offset hoppers around "The Curve". Gotta run, Thanks in advance, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: fwd: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:18:41 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 3370 On 3 Sep, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > I've been following this thread about the likely hood of C&O hoppers being > found in great numbers on PRR lines. My question is along the same line > but froma different perspective. Was it common to find PRR freight cars > (no specific type) on roads not affiliated with it. For example, would > you find large numbers of PRR boxcars in California, New Mexico, Washington, > Idaho, etc. Boxcars, absolutely. There are rabid Pennsy fans who delight in telling all N.American modellers that they are Pennsy modellers, because Pennsy cars show up on their railroads all the time. For instance, in the last Model RR Planning, there's an article about railroading off in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific Northwest woods. In one shot of the buildings at the end of the line, you can see that the car coupled to the loco is a PRR X29, painted in what must've been fresh Shadow Keystone livery, since it was in the mid-50s. Because of their distinctive low rooflines, X29s can be picked out of yard shots with relative ease. The Pennsy tended to have lots and lots of cars and they went *everywhere*. Check out Rob's freight car pages at http://PRR.Railfan.net/freight/ for car counts in various years. > Would hopper cars filled with anthracite coal mined in North > Eastern PA find its way to distributors in northern tier states in those > same PRR hoppers? I believe that there wasn't a whole lots of transloading; coal yards (like the local oil dealers today) had their own coal trestles. You'll notice that the oldest oil dealers (ie, those that used to deal in coal) are generally along a (probably abandoned) railroad right of way. PRR hoppers went to all the way to the docks carrying export coal. I don't know whether, to order more coal, the local coal dealer called the local freight agent for the railroad he was on, or just called a local coal broker. There was probably some volume point at which the business model changed... Nowadays the power companies contract with the mines, and the railroads compete to carry the freight. At least one power plant has built a new spur to a different railroad (I think it was Texas, and UP vs BNSF) to "encourage" competition. > And now for a humbling omission. I don't have a very clear idea of how the > cars are delivered & tracked from point A to point Q and then back to point > A again. In the pre-computer days, there were lots and lots of clerks shuffling papers around, and the conductor was responsible for moving several sheets of paper along with each car, moving them to and from these clerks. These clerks would decide which cars got put into which trains to make further progress toward their destinations, and they got requests (for loads and empties) from the local agents mentioned above. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 13:58:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1246 On 9/3/98 1:48 PM, Ron Dugas (rond@efn.org) wrote: >As for "enemy" roads, a friend, who grew up in the area tells me that >the Pennsy commonly hauled entire trains of NYC hoppers over parts of >the Elmira Branch? Actually, the NYC and the PRR ran joint coal trains with pool power over the Elmira Branch, but not until the later years. The joint trains ran PRR trackage from Williamsport (I believe) north to Himrod Junction (or is it Nimrod?) where they then took a slight right turn and headed northeast on NYC trackage. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Looking for Philly-Harrisburg commuter TT 1954 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 14:38:33 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1102 I'm looking for a commuter timetable for Harrisburg-Philadelphia for 1954...preferably fall...or better yet, Sept. 26th!!! A standalone timetable will provide more info than the "Official Guide", which apparently published "out of synch" mini timetables. I want to have the best data possible for my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" page. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Looking for 1954 Freight Schedules Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 14:38:37 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1104 I'm looking for a 1954 edition of "Freight Train Schedules Between Principle Points". (NOTE: I am not seeking ETT's with this request; this is the name of an actual document.) The version I have is dated Feb. 1, 1952. Mark Bej has a 1959 revision online. I want to have the best data possible for my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" page. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:42:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Darn...no money From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 1788 On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:20:03 -0400 (EDT) bubbles@visi.net writes: > It fiqures...theres Mr. Johnson selling his brass engines and i >can't even get one..Darn. Would have really liked one of the H class >engines especially that H-6...would have fit well with what i'm modeling. > oh well there be another day...hopefully... > Good luck guys and i hope Mr. Johnson finds a buyer for his >engines... > > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > Its a bummer to be broke....LOL > AAAAAAAAAMEN! Could use an H6 myself. As a note of "heads-up", I'll be interviewing within the week for a job in South Carolina. May have to unsubscribe for a while (temporarily) if I end up moving, but will make enough money to buy Pennsy things or help with restoration projects if it takes off. Wish me luck or say a prayer. Now if someone could turn off that 1/1 scale hurricane, I'll be happy. Thanks. David W. "Staffsgt. York" PS--Yes I outrank Alvin C., but he is still THE Sgt. York, US Army. Wonder if he rode Pennsy rails somewhere on his way to deportation to WW1? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:20:07 -0500 Content-Length: 2871 Roger, check the center sill for the cabin number..... ---------- > From: Wayne S. Betty > To: kirkpatr@mcnet.marietta.edu > Cc: PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars > Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 2:48 PM > > Howdy all: > While up in the Ephrata area today, I had the chance to check things out. > At the old Reading and Columbia station in downtown Ephrata is an N8 labeled > PC 23210. It does have a PRR keystone on the side and you are invited to > call a local number for a tour. I've called the answering machine and will > let you know what information I get back. > > Up the road aways ( on PA 272 ) is the Doll House Express. They have 3 > N5c's. Only one has a number on its exterior, 46173R. The store > attendants did not know anything about the cars. They did attempt to > contact the owner of the cars, however, he is out on vacation. They let a > message with his daughter, and will contact me if he wants to talk to me > about them. > They also have several heavy weight RPOs. > > That's it for now. > cos > > Roger Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have PRR 477231/CR 46163R listed in 2 places: > > > > Carlisle, OH, across from 453 Park Drive, and > > > > Ephrata, PA, Doll House Express, Rt 272. > > > > The car showed up in Carlilse a bit over a year ago and was reported in > > Ephrata several years ago. This would allow for it to be the Ephrata > > car sold and moved to Ohio 1 to 1.5 years ago. Anyone know? > > > > Also reported at Ephrata is CR 23210, ex-PRR 478030. However, the CR > > caboose page indicates CR 23210 was PRR 478201? How about an opinion on > > this one? > > > > Thanks, Roger > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:16:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and enemies ruminations. Content-Length: 4020 In a message dated 9/3/98 6:49:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: << My fellow SPF-ers, Ever wonder why the Norfolk and Western had chicken coop pilots on their steam locomotives, and used position light signals---JUST LIKE THE PENNSY?!! I think there was an ownership arrangement for a number of years that allied some of their engineering and operating practices. This may have only tangential relation to this thread, at least as far as hauling another road's hoppers, but it does add another dimension to the issue. >> It was more than a slight ownership interest. The N&W for most of the 29th Century was essentially a wholly-owned (90%+) but independently-operated subsidiary of the Pennsylvania RR Co. (with most of the stock probably held by the Pennsylvania Co.). The Wabash, Lehigh Valley (changed it to LNE is a moment of doubt) Atlantic Coast Liine, Seaboard Air Line and Boston & Maine all had at least a majority or controllig interest owned by the PRR. The Toledo, Peoria & Western was past of Lines West as a wholly-owned property from circa 1890 until 1927 when a half interest was sold to the Santa Fe and it was spin off as the TP&W. In 1929 the PRR Co., mainly through its wholly-owned "P" Co, controlled so much of eastern rail traffic that fear of ICC intervention caused the PRR board to organize the wholly-owned but independently operated Pennroad Corp. to take the DT&I off Henry Ford's hands. As several posts point out, there were exceptions. The NYC on the Elmira branch, the 33-mile stretch of the Central Ohio RR between Columbus and Newark, Ohio at the west endof the Panhandle Division jiointly-owned by the B&O and the PRR. The statement about "enemy" car should be seen as a general rule dependent on location. As a general rule, it would govern the number of foriegn road cars appearing in trains. My modeling interest is the Columbus Division mainline and its interchange with the DT&I at South Charleston, Ohio, about 2/3s of the way between Columbus and Xenia (heading west). I would purchase about 10 cars from the L&N, NC&StL, SAL, SOU, N&W and VGN car for every C&O, B&O or NYC system car in traffic outbound from Cincinnati. Outbound full coal drags would be primarily from the coal roads, esp. L&N, SOU and N&W which had massive fleets of open hoppers on the assumption they'd be heading through Colunbus to the Sandusky Branch and the automated coal docks at Sandusky on Lake Erie's Sandusky Bay. The full drag would have a smattering of PRR hoppers returning home.. The returning empty drag would have no PRR hoppers, assuming that AAR car-handling rules were followed. An ore- carrying drag heading toward Cincinnati from Sandusky would have fewer PRR cars. While there was steel smelted at the ARMCO (American Rolling Mill Co.) works in Middletown served by the PRR at the west end of the Lebanon branch (actually the Middletown & Cincinnati, a 14-mile branch of the Lebanon branch which was formally known as the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Railway), it primaarily used scrap in its furnaces. Scrap-loaded gons would be more common on the Columbus Division than ore-carrying hoppers. Coils of rolled steel in covered gons or coil carr either outbound from ARMCO or inbound from the mills back east. Coal drags headed west to Dayton or south to Cincinnati would probably probably have an occasional hopper from a southern being returned home per AAR that'd be replaced by an occasional car from the :LV, B&M some other eastern linr on their deadhead returns back east. just sum ruminaations. Tom V ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:52:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in inte... Content-Length: 1166 Kris and all, The most commonly interchanged freight car was the boxcar. The lest likely car to see on the Pennsy would be a two bay Covered hopper from a Western Carrier. Think about it the commodity that it hauled is least likely to end up in the East, now I did not say never here. Also open top hoppers were not as likely to interchange. You must understand that competing road want to keep the traffic they generate not ship it off line, it is better utilization of equipment. Think of it like this if you send you cars onto a competing carriers line how do you get them back except by filing a complaint with the AAR and you who what the fine is, well in today's world it is $35.00. Not much restitution if you are short on boxcars in the middle of a grain harvest. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:10:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers ininterchange Content-Length: 1314 Folks, Did anyone mention PRSL, ( two-thirds ) or did I miss it? How about Monongahela (partial owner), as well as joint ownership of Washington Terminal, Chicago Union Statation Company and I don't know how many other union station and terminal companies. Pennsy did have it's finger in a lot of pies, indeed. Seems like TP&W was in there somewhere. As regards Pennsy hoppers getting around, it would seem like a good shot at having one show up most anywhere. In a Minneapolis & St. Louis book there's a Pennsy H-21 hopper right in front of the caboose in a Peoria-Minneapolis time freight. In a strange twist, in another book, on the B&O, the first car in a train grinding up a mountain in W.VA. is an M&ST.L hopper! Since those cars were supposed to be used essentially in Illinois, guess hoppers got around too. Anything goes, of course with Pennsy boxcars and you just gotta have a few even if you're modelling Arizona. Barry Peltier . ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:14:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Connections and Interlining(long) Content-Length: 7741 Hi PRR-Talkers, I've been reading the thread on Allies/Enemies/Connections etc. with interest. First of all, the question about C&O hoppers was a good one. I'm sure C&O hopper equipment got interchanged to the PRR all the time at common points like Cincinnati or Columbus. But if we're talking about streams of C&O hopper cars out of Columbus to the Great Lakes, 1) I don't see it in pictures 2) It doesn't make sense from a traffic point of view-the C&O had a perfectly good Great Lakes harbor facility up at/near Toledo, and a perfectly good double track railroad from the Ohio River to Columbus (Parsons Yard), then continuing north through Delaware, Marion, and Upper Sandusky (PRR Fort Wayne line crossing), to C&O's Walbridge Yard in Toledo. Railroads don't normally "short haul" themselves - it's more profitable to carry it all the way. Direct Competitors to PRR The distinction about parallelling/competing railroads that was brought up is a good one. RECOGNIZED COMPETITORS of the PRR, who would normally be most reluctant to give up any traffic, were (amplifying Tom Vondruska's list): Baltimore & Ohio B&O Chesapeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Lines/New York Central System, including New York Central Railroad (NYC) Canada Southern (CASO) Michigan Central (MCRR, consolidated about 1920?) Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (LS&MS, consolidated 1920) Cincinnati Northern (NOR?, consolidated 1920) Toledo & Ohio Central/Kanawha & Michigan (TOC/K&M consolidated 1920?) Peoria & Eastern P&E (mostly-owned subsidiary between Springfield OH and Peoria IL) Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) (CCC&StL, consolidated 1920) Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE, 92%? Owned subsidiary) Indiana Harbor Belt (50% owned with Milwaukee Road) Nickel Plate Road NKP Erie (and Erie Lackawanna EL) Canadian National/Grand Trunk Western between Buffalo and Chicago Five of the 6 above were recognized as "Official Territory Trunk Lines"; the C&O isn't probably because it leaves Ohio for Kentucky before it gets any farther east than Portsmouth OH. Anyway, the 5 plus Pennsy were notorious competitors, and often appear together whenever "MONOPOLY" or "ROBBER BARONS" are mentioned in American railroad histories. We know plenty of "interlining" (routing over more than one of these competitors) took place, but it would normally only happen when forced by the origin and destination being on different railroads. PRR-Controlled Railroads Railroad historians can give three answers to the question of whom the Pennsy controlled: The first, flip answer is that in the 19th Century, the Pennsy's influence was such that it cowed everybody. However, this answer isn't useful for an interline discussion. The second answer is that before trust-busting really got started (I think 1905-1910 for railroads), the Pennsy AND the New York Central held large blocks of stock in many/most of the other Eastern railroads. This was for the purpose of keeping freight rates from getting too competitive (read low). But most of us are modeling well after 1920. From then until about 1964, the Pennsy was known to own stock in the following roads. Be careful, because owning stock in a company is not quite the same as controlling it, and certainly not to be confused with operating it: >> PRR-owned (or held by Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western (N&W), the Pennsy's biggest outside income stream, and also the #1 farm team for seasoning young talent) Wabash Railway (WAB) Detroit, Toledo & Ironton (DTI) acquired from Henry Ford, as opposed to Ford Motor Company, and owned by Pennroad Corp. Another recognized farm team. Lehigh Valley (LV) And the Toledo, Peoria & Western was owned 50/50 with the ATSF in this period. I'm not aware of any stock ownership position the Pennsy may have had (in this period) in: Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Through Route Connections of PRR I have to admit the label of "Business Partners" is a new one on me, but if we look at the healthy interchange relationship between two or more roads that join end-to-end to form a through route, then the PRR formed active high- volume through routes with many roads. Some of them were: New Haven (NH), via New York Harbor and other routes Boston & Maine (B&M) via the New Haven Atlantic Coast Line (ACL), via RF&P at Washington (including passenger trains into New York) Seaboard Air Line (SAL), via RF&P at Washington (including passenger trains into New York) Southern (SOU), at Washington (including passenger trains into New York) plus via Cincinnati or Louisville Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O), at Washington (including passenger trains into New York) Norfolk & Western (N&W) at Columbus OH and Cincinnati Louisville & Nashville (L&N) (controlled by ACL), via Cincinnati or Louisville Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis NCStL (controlled by L&N in this period), via L&N at Nashville Illinois Central IC, at Louisville or Indianapolis Missouri Pacific MP via St.Louis, including sleepers and much headend equipment to Texas St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY via Frisco at St. Louis Union Pacific UP at St. Louis plus via C&NW at Chicago And back to the original point - strings of coal hoppers Having gone through all the above, now an answer about fleets of C&O hoppers on the Pennsy should make more sense. C&O coal traffic was loaded online in C&O hoppers in West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, or in southern Ohio's Hocking Valley. Tom Vondruska ("LINESWEST") and I are both interested in Pennsy lines radiating out of Columbus OH. At least in this area of Ohio, traffic logic says the bulk of C&O coal would stay on C&O home rails all the way to Toledo or Chicago. On the other hand, L&N coal coming north onto the Pennsy at Cincinnati will be everywhere - in utility power plants, and on the way to Sandusky. Additionally, the N&W coal coming out of West Virginia will roll right to the end of N&W track in Columbus, at Joyce Avenue Yard. And the west end of Joyce Avenue is the east end of PRR Grogan Yard, which sent all that N&W coal up the Sandusky Branch to Lake Erie. Pictures show that these Sandusky Branch trains were either solid strings of N&W hoppers (including VGN after 1960) or solid strings of L&N hoppers. The absence of PRR hoppers should not surprise us; the PRR didn't originate the Sandusky traffic. Of course, we know the power before diesels was PRR J-1's, plus (for one summer) oil-burning rental 2-10-4's from the Santa Fe. For you mid-Ohio railfans, note that all this Sandusky coal was just one component of the 150 trains a day that once passed the depot at Marion OH. It was quite a show. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West P.S. If you ever need to absolutely go bonkers, pick up an old ORER, turn to the Pennsy entry, and read the huge list of interchange points. Then think about modeling the traffic flow. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:00:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers Content-Length: 626 In a message dated 9/3/98 1:17:27 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Actually, the NYC and the PRR ran joint coal trains with pool power over the Elmira Branch, but not until the later years. >> However, still in the steam era. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:54:01 PDT Content-Length: 1249 >This "Allies and Enemies List" has great potential! We'd like to see it>develop into a chart that would show which RR's cars ran in >concentration on which PRR lines. ___________________________________ My fellow SPF-ers, Ever wonder why the Norfolk and Western had chicken coop pilots on their steam locomotives, and used position light signals---JUST LIKE THE PENNSY?!! I think there was an ownership arrangement for a number of years that allied some of their engineering and operating practices. This may have only tangential relation to this thread, at least as far as hauling another road's hoppers, but it does add another dimension to the issue. Andrew Harmantas, an SPF, watching trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today....again. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 98 11:41:43 CST Subject: [PRR] Ghost Railroads books... Content-Length: 1124 Hi, all, SOmeone mentioned the re-printing of the three "Ghost Railroads" books by Elmer Sulzer. I found them listed on the AMAZON.COM website - advanced orders were being taken, but I did not have time to find out who's doing the publishing. The Ghost Railroads of Indiana volume has a section on the PRR Madison, IN incline and some other misc. parts of the PRR. I'd suggest buying these books while you can, since the used copies were going for BIG BUCKS. These are neat books - lots of good photos. I haven't seen the GR of Kentucky and Tennessee but I understand there's lots on shortlines and n. g. rr's. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:49:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in inte... Content-Length: 2077 In a message dated 9/3/98 10:09:05 AM Central Daylight Time, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL writes: <> Any online customer of the PRR who had a customer in LA, Albuquerque, or Seattle would keep their shipment in one car. They either went in a Western RR car which was available or a PRR car. Remember, hogs could go coast to coast without changing in Chicago but people couldn't (Robert Young). << I don't have a very clear idea of how the cars are delivered & tracked from point A to point Q and then back to point A again. >> In the days of the PRR, waybills gave the routing. Lots and lots of clerks. Official Guides and other publications gave the contact point and delivery point of empties to get them home again. There were national rules and sometimes individual railroads policies about routing (other better experts than I can tell you the differences). Thus, if the Sante Fe had a customer in California shipping back East, they looked for a foreign road empty heading that way first, before using a home road car. Also, cars were very specific. Thus you couldn't use a "dirty" boxcar when a clean lading car was specified. Dedicated cars were directed to be rerouted empty back to the origin (say auto parts cars) shortest and most direct way. Special cars, such as PRR Merchandise cars were usually kept captive on the road as much as possible. A simplistic answer,and as I say others are more expert at it than myself, but that's about the way it works. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 08:49:00 -0700 From: "Brady McGuire" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cresson ( hoppers in interchange?) Content-Length: 3296 My Cresson years are '55 to '65. I remember lots of C&I hoppers on the branch from Ebensburg, (Cambria and Indiana, Bethlehem Steel ?? road) I don't recall any Berwind hoppers at Cresson. I suspect that they would have entered the PRR at South Fork. I remember many trains of B&LE hoppers moving thru Cresson. Solid trains of B&LE with PRR power and cabin. Brady (Penn Tex) -----Original Message----- From: Ron Dugas [SMTP:rond@efn.org] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 10:48 AM To: bmcguire; PRR-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson (was: C&I hoppers in interchange?) From: Ron Dugas Date: Thu, Sep 3, 1998 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson hoppers in interchange?) To: PRR-talk Hi all, This "Allies and Enemies List" has great potential! We'd like to see it develop into a chart that would show which RR's cars ran in concentration on which PRR lines. Continuing with hopper questions: Did most Berwind/White hoppers come off the branches out of Cresson or were there other areas where these were common? Would Pennsy have operated entire trains of BWCX hoppers from Cresson to Altoona or Pittsburgh? Where did Westmoreland hoppers primarily operate in quantity? Whole trains? As for "enemy" roads, a friend, who grew up in the area tells me that the Pennsy commonly hauled entire trains of NYC hoppers over parts of the Elmira Branch? Somewhere I read that the Pennsy interchanged hoppers loaded with ore with the B&LE. Fact of fiction? Primarily PRR hoppers, B&LE hoppers or a mix? If B&LE, where on the Pennsy did these B&LE hoppers travel? Which non-PRR hoppers would have traveled over the section from Altoona to Johnstown?, to Pittsburgh? Did the Conemaugh and Black Lick have any interchange with PRR in the Johnstown area? C&BL hoppers? Conventional wisdom, as I read it, has mostly said that hoppers "rarely" left home rails. Exceptions to this rule are numerous. I had planned to run only PRR hoppers in my operations but am taking a long second look at my fleet acquisition to determine if I need to mix in others for more proto accuracy. In N-Scale our hopper selection is more restricted than in HO and we'd like to be able to run the on Cor/Bachmann 4-bay offset-side hoppers repainted for roads that would have interchanged them with the PRR. For my own modeling I need to find a road that would have sent these offset hoppers around "The Curve". Gotta run, Thanks in advance, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:09:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re allies and enemies Content-Length: 930 frisco484@hotmail.com (Andrew Harmantas) wrote the following: Ever wonder why the Norfolk and Western had chicken coop pilots on their steam locomotives, and used position light signals---JUST LIKE THE PENNSY?!! I think there was an ownership arrangement for a number of years that allied some of their engineering and operating practices. He failed to mention that it was a lawyer up from the ranks of Norfolk and Western, who became the last President of PRR. I beleive that it was Saunders who negotated the CR merger, thus ending the PRR. Am I correct? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:01:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 538 Interesting and informative response - but since original question dealt with repainting 4 Bay Offsett side hoppers - think I'd recommend C&O - B&O only Dick Ross Cleveland Ohio ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:30:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New video Content-Length: 706 In a message dated 9/2/98 7:04:22 PM Central Daylight Time, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: << I brought that up in July. I carry Clear Block videos and can probably do better on the price for PRR-Talk people. Randy >> Missed your post. Probably while I was unsubscribed during my trip to KC for the Natonal. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:55:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers Content-Length: 1248 In a message dated 98-09-03 13:38:27 EDT, you write: << Somewhere I read that the Pennsy interchanged hoppers loaded with ore with the B&LE. Fact of fiction? Primarily PRR hoppers, B&LE hoppers or a mix? If B&LE, where on the Pennsy did these B&LE hoppers travel? >> Fact the PRR delivered raw iron ore imported from Labrador from their ore pier in South Phila. to Butler Jct. north of Pittsburgh for delivery to the B&LE to go to the Saxonburg sintering plant owned by USS . I remember trains of Bessemer jennies as well as PRR hoppers and jennies being used. Routing was Phila-Pittsburgh via main line Phila to Parkesburg, A&S Parkesburg to Columbia Royalton Br to Harrisburg . Harris to Johnstown via main line. Johnstown to Kiski Jct and Kiski Jct to Butler. These trains lasted into Conrail when the boats were in Phila two to three trains a day were common. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:28:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] C&O hoppers in interchange? Content-Length: 944 In a message dated 8/28/98 11:16:52 PM Central Daylight Time,I wrote : << << Can anybody tell me or point me to a source to discover whether the PRR carried C&O hoppers in any volume? >> It may take me a while to get the exact locations, because I'll have to go through a lot of videos (a fun job, but time consuming) , but I seem to recall lots of C&O, N&W, and some L&N hoppers on lines west of Pittsburgh >> Hit it the first time. Green Frog Production "The Pennsylvania Railroad" has strings of C&O hoppers at Marion (Ohio) crossing the NYC and B&O. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:55:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers ininterchange Content-Length: 1402 We must not forget they owned stock in the C&O and the B&O at the turn of the century. KTrick45@aol.com on 09/03/98 08:18:37 PM To: Randy Williamson/Marathon cc: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers ininterchange ?) In a message dated 98-09-03 10:29:22 EDT, Randy wrote: << >> PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western <<>> >>An excellent list, but I think you mean Lehigh Valley instead of Lehigh & New England.<< And don't forget : Pittsburgh & West Virginia P&WV (Pennroad controlled) Montour M until 1958, MTR afterward (PRR co-owned with P&LE) Monongahela MRY (PRR co-owned with B&O and P&LE) Pittsburgh, Chartiers & Youghiogheny PC&Y (PRR co-owned with P&LE) ...among others... Peace Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:38:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Content-Length: 3728 If memory serves, in the '50s the Pennsylvania, or one of it's companies, owned: 99% of the N&W, which explains a lot, like borrowed steam, and position light signals. A third of the Wabash, which in turn controlled the DT&I, the Ann Arbor, and the New Jersey, Indiana and Illinois. The NJI&I switched the Studebaker plant in South Bend. Half of the TP&W. The other half belonged