Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:07:14 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Truc Train trailers Content-Length: 1159 Ok folks... Since some of us have been chatting about Pennsy trailers.... Does anyone have any idea what happened to the Truc Train trailers used by Pennsy after the merger...i assume most were still used in PC's trailer train service and later retired when they got too old. But did any make it on to the Conrail trailer pool and are any still in service with Conrail? As a side note here...I've seen two former REA trailers (under a different owner and slightly relettered) down here passing through virginia.those two had the black ownership letters up in the front side corner and back on the doors.) Well i'll let this fly and see what happens. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 09:25:03 -0400 Content-Length: 1236 Is this Williams Grove, Utah, Williams Grove, Sussex Eng, or the Williams Grove outside of Singapore? - -------- Just thought the group would like to know that ex-PRR 0-6-0 B4a #643 operated on Sunday August 30, and will again operate Wed-Mon of this week. We will most likely be pulling passangers (and giving cab rides) Thursday and Friday evenings, and all day Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. 643 is operated in conjunction with the steam show at Williams Grove amusment park every August. Tom von Trott - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:58:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week Content-Length: 2402 Williams Grove Park & Speedway Amusement Park/Auto Racetrack Wooden roller coaster, steam train, waterslides, flea market, miniature golf, campground One Park Ave. Mechanicsburg, PA 17055-5341 (717) 697-8266 > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 09:25:03 -0400 > List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. > List-Subscribe: > List-Digest: > List-Unsubscribe: > > Is this Williams Grove, Utah, Williams Grove, Sussex Eng, or the Williams Grove > outside of Singapore? > > - -------- > Just thought the group would like to know that ex-PRR 0-6-0 B4a #643 operated > on Sunday August 30, and will again operate Wed-Mon of this week. We will most > likely be pulling passangers (and giving cab rides) Thursday and Friday > evenings, and all day Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. 643 is operated in > conjunction with the steam show at Williams Grove amusment park every August. > > Tom von Trott > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > - ----------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 10:44:08 EDT From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week Content-Length: 1790 Williams Grove, Pennsylvania. Off of Rt 15 about 10 miles southwest of Harrisburg. ------------- Original Text From: Andrew S. Miller , on 9/1/98 9:25 AM: Is this Williams Grove, Utah, Williams Grove, Sussex Eng, or the Williams Grove outside of Singapore? - -------- Just thought the group would like to know that ex-PRR 0-6-0 B4a #643 operated on Sunday August 30, and will again operate Wed-Mon of this week. We will most likely be pulling passangers (and giving cab rides) Thursday and Friday evenings, and all day Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. 643 is operated in conjunction with the steam show at Williams Grove amusment park every August. Tom von Trott - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 643 operating this week Date: Tue, 01 Sep 98 10:52:18 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 574 I have some photos of the 643 running last year on my web site. I don't remember the exact link but if you got to http://prr.railfan.net the link to the Williams Grove photos is near the bottom of the list. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 11:49:17 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1362 The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the various "phases". (Very helpful!) However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? The GP7 first appeared in 1949; the SD9 in 1954. Both appear to be 1500HP units. I am modeling Fall 1954, as many of you are aware, and I have the two P2K SD9's and am planning to purchase the upcoming three GP7's. (For GP9's, I have to wait for Phase I's!) Any thoughts? (Tom V. previously pointed out that the PRR only purchased two SD7's which were both assigned to Lines West.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 12:09:52 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1226 On 1 Sep, Jerry wrote: > The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which > compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the > various "phases". (Very helpful!) Yes! > However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? Umm, Jerry, the main difference between GP-anything and SD-anything is that GPs are four-axle and SDs are six-axle. > (Tom V. previously pointed out that the PRR only purchased two SD7's > which were both assigned to Lines West.) Madison Hill, to be exact; they were superweighted and otherwise modified. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:10:41 -0400 Content-Length: 1095 > The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which > compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the > various "phases". (Very helpful!) > > However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? > The SD9 was 1750 hp like the GP9. The SD7 and GP7 were both 1500 hp. The GP7 and GP9 ride on two B trucks (two axles, two traction motors). The SD7 and SD9 ride on two C trucks (three axles, three traction motors). The SDs are longer than their GP counter parts and have two fans above the dynamic brake blister where the GPs have only one (for those units with d/bs. > The GP7 first appeared in 1949; the SD9 in 1954. Both appear to be 1500HP > units. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:06:56 -0400 Content-Length: 2095 Jerry, This seems a little too obvious, but I'll post it anyway. A GP7 has four wheel trucks and the SD9 has six wheel trucks. I'm bracing for the replies! Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 11:55 AM Subject: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 >The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which >compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the >various "phases". (Very helpful!) > >However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? > >The GP7 first appeared in 1949; the SD9 in 1954. Both appear to be 1500HP >units. > >I am modeling Fall 1954, as many of you are aware, and I have the two P2K >SD9's and am planning to purchase the upcoming three GP7's. (For GP9's, I >have to wait for Phase I's!) > >Any thoughts? > >(Tom V. previously pointed out that the PRR only purchased two SD7's >which were both assigned to Lines West.) > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com >The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 13:33:28 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1204 On 9/1/98 12:21 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >>However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? > >Aside from the number of axles? Well done. I've received this answer about a dozen times. Of course, this was only a test...to demonstrate to the list "newbies" that any question, regardless of how basic, is fair game with this crowd. ;-) Okay, I don't know my engines but the response was excellent. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:21:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Content-Length: 976 In a message dated 9/1/98 8:49:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << The newest issue of MR has a "spooting features" mini-article which compares the GP7 with the GP9 and includes diffences and eras for the various "phases". (Very helpful!) However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? ****250 more HP and two more powered axles; roof bulge near rear top of unit; utilizes EMD 567-C engine, etc...*** The GP7 first appeared in 1949; the SD9 in 1954. Both appear to be 1500HP units. >> ************no...either " 9 " is 1750 HP...........Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:21:28 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Content-Length: 1613 >However, does anyone know the key differences between the GP7 and the SD9? Aside from the number of axles? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE-Sept. Special is American Model Builders Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 13:01:53 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1213 Thanks to those who participated in the August "Merchandise Service" "special-of-the-month"...in support of the lists and web sites of DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM! September's special -- by popular request -- is American Model Builders. AMB offers structures, including the New Freedom Station, and passenger car kits. So here's your chance...20% off! For ordering information, see http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html Thank you for your support of this list and related PRR endeavors! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 15:48:08 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Content-Length: 2140 Howdy all: While up in the Ephrata area today, I had the chance to check things out. At the old Reading and Columbia station in downtown Ephrata is an N8 labeled PC 23210. It does have a PRR keystone on the side and you are invited to call a local number for a tour. I've called the answering machine and will let you know what information I get back. Up the road aways ( on PA 272 ) is the Doll House Express. They have 3 N5c's. Only one has a number on its exterior, 46173R. The store attendants did not know anything about the cars. They did attempt to contact the owner of the cars, however, he is out on vacation. They let a message with his daughter, and will contact me if he wants to talk to me about them. They also have several heavy weight RPOs. That's it for now. cos Roger Kirkpatrick wrote: > Hi, > > I have PRR 477231/CR 46163R listed in 2 places: > > Carlisle, OH, across from 453 Park Drive, and > > Ephrata, PA, Doll House Express, Rt 272. > > The car showed up in Carlilse a bit over a year ago and was reported in > Ephrata several years ago. This would allow for it to be the Ephrata > car sold and moved to Ohio 1 to 1.5 years ago. Anyone know? > > Also reported at Ephrata is CR 23210, ex-PRR 478030. However, the CR > caboose page indicates CR 23210 was PRR 478201? How about an opinion on > this one? > > Thanks, Roger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: New line of HW Cars Date: Tue, 1 Sep 98 16:01:57 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2078 Fueling the recent rumors of a new line of heavyweight cars coming to market...that "someone is watching the passenger car list"... One early suspicion was that it would be Westerfield. That would be great...I hope it is. However, on a hunch, I checked out the web site of Those Classic Trains. Remember Bob Boyd? If he's still on this list, he's been quiet. Anyway, his site has been updated, including his plans for a line of modular, intermediate level, heavyweight passenger cars! However (take two), he has just started his "formal fundraising". He states he needs $237K to start business. Unfortunately, thus far he only has the $62K he is putting in...not to mention that $20K is reserved for "employee stock options". I hope Mr. Boyd does pull it off, but I remain extremely skeptical. It's already been two years since he first announced his plans. IMHO, the "best" solution would be for a company like Eastern Car Works to create "heavyweight core kits" (as they do already for lightweights) and let a company like Union Station Products offer a wealth of sides. Mark Meeks (of USP) is more than happy to offer new sides and already offers an abundance of PRR sides (see http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/). I have many under concurrent construction now, and they match the Pullman-Standard Library drawings perfectly. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 14:35:55 -0400 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR H-9, H-10 Tenders Content-Length: 1204 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > I just acquired an O scale H10 built from a Central Loco Works kit. I > am familiar with the tender commonly associated with it, a high coal > bunker tender known to us non-experts as a "Lines West" tender. > > This particular loco came with a small, low side tender similar to the > one shown in _Pennsy Power I_ on page 37, coupled to H8sb 1288. Has the > same trucks. Would this tender have been used with the H9 or H10? The tender shown with H8sb 1288 was Class 70F70a. It was the most common tender class used with locomotive classes H8sb and H9s. A few were used on Class H10s locomotives having 70 in. deck height (i.e. some of those rebuilt from Class H8a). So, H9s was by far the more common locomotive class for this tender than H10s, but either is possible. Bob Johnson ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 15:45:00 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] CRRM Book Sale Content-Length: 655 Hi, The Colorado RR Museum has/had a book for sale of possible interest. Price includes postage & handling. Out of state: 800-365-6263; in Colorado: 303-279-4591. Crossroads of Commerce, the PRR Calendar Art, $50.04, 10 copies. Use my name and pay an extra dollar. Good Luck, Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] St. Louis Main From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:11:41 EDT Content-Length: 825 Can anyone give me any info on PRR's St. Louis main. I especially would like info on the Limedale area & Indianapolis. Thanks alot. E.J. Caylor Ghost Railroads of Indiana members.theglobe.com/Caylorman/prrmon.html _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HGordon552@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:48:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: New line of HW Cars Content-Length: 504 New to group.Request the best source of information on the S-1.Photos at the 1939 worlds fair,etc.Also source for drawings of S-1 Thanks, Harold ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:01:31 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: [PRR] Crosby Articles Content-Length: 1480 I'm trying to collect all of the articles written by the late John Crosby (retired PRR enginecrew member) for Trains magazine. I have just ordered a couple from the late 70's from Trains back issues, but I am still missing the following: July 1972, page 26, "Day in the Life of a Road Foreman" November, 1974, page 43, "Extra Board Diary" If anyone can sell me these issues, or photocopy the articles I would be happy to pay them for postage and copying, and/or trade them any of his article that he or she might not have. A complete index of his articles follows. July 1972, page 26, "Day in the Life of a Road Foreman" November, 1974, page 43, "Extra Board Diary" March, 1975, page 42, "Second Engine" April, 1977, page 30, "You Win, Al" August, 1978, Page 66, "Featherbraining" November, 1979, Page 58, "Hooking At Monroeville" August, 1993, Page 54, "Last Chance" Also, does anyone know if he ever wrote any articles for any other magazines besides Trains? Tom von Trott PS sorry for not giving better location information on 643 operations, and thanks to those that did. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:24:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Content-Length: 491 Anyone ever seen the fully restored N8 in New Castle, PA? On exhibit at the Penn Ohio railway Museum and owned by Doc Zines. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 21:11:25 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Content-Length: 826 Howdy all: Rick, do you have a location on the cabin. Check the Conrail Cabin page and there is no reference to an N8 at New Castle. It does list one at Wilmington DE. Check out http://www.geocities.com/~wolfgangs/index.htm . If you can get me close, I'll go check it out. cos TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > Anyone ever seen the fully restored N8 in New Castle, PA? On exhibit at the > Penn Ohio railway Museum and owned by Doc Zines. > > Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:48:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] South Penn Model RR Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1326 The South Penn Model RR is located in Lancaster, Pa in the basement of an old tobacco warehouse on North Charlotte Street, directly across from Snavely Lumber. Meetings are Wednesday evenings around 7:00. Guests are welcome. Take US 30 to the Harrisburg Pike exit follow Harrisburg Pike toward Franklin & Marshall College and Lancaster, pass the college [recognized by a lot of un- needed traffic lights], as soon as you see the Conrail mini engine terminal turn left and the building is on your right; no sign, white door, the red basement door is not used--knock louldly. All benchwork is complete and track is starting up the curve. Open house will be Thanksgiving weekend through Christmas. New members are welcome but all operations will be DCC. For more info call me at my law office in mornings 717 392-3787, Lancaster Junction Model Trains in afternoon 717 291-2100 [2-10-0 that is] or home in evenings 717 392-8134. Jerry Finefrock jcfmmf@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:13:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Accurail HO auto racks Content-Length: 612 I see that the new Accurail 2 and 3 level auto racks will both be offered decorated with "the Keystone"... anyone knowledgeable care to comment on how their model stacks up against the real thing? http://www.elnet.com/~accurail/autorack.htm -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR H-9, H-10 Tenders Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:00:27 -0500 Content-Length: 2351 Steve--The low side tender you mentioned would probably be more common with an H8 or H9. Besides the well known "Lines West" tender, there were some other choices for the H10 depending on the era and whether you are modeling lines west or the east. (However, during the 50's, the east/lines west distinctions blurred a lot.) Quick visual descriptions of three possible tenders: (1) similar to the short tender used with the I1, but slightly smaller, used on H10's with and without stoker; (2) similar to the tender usually used with L1's, but slightly shorter, also with and without stoker; (3) similar to the "lines west" tender but with a rounded hood; I have seen several of these in videos showing Columbus. I have no idea what is available in O scale. None of this should be taken to mean the tender you have is incorrect; there were a lot of H10's with a lot of different tenders. Good luck. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Bartlett To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 3:02 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR H-9, H-10 Tenders >I just acquired an O scale H10 built from a Central Loco Works kit. I >am familiar with the tender commonly associated with it, a high coal >bunker tender known to us non-experts as a "Lines West" tender. > > This particular loco came with a small, low side tender similar to the >one shown in _Pennsy Power I_ on page 37, coupled to H8sb 1288. Has the >same trucks. Would this tender have been used with the H9 or H10? > >Thank you for any help, > >Steve Bartlett > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 02:20:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] C&O hoppers in interchange? Content-Length: 1346 In a message dated 8/28/98 2:32:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dennis@bbn.com writes: << Can anybody tell me or point me to a source to discover whether the PRR carried C&O hoppers in any volume? If not, does anybody want twelve C&O offset quads? I'm unwilling to sell them still marked PRR. >> If you model any of the PRR mains radiating from Cincinnati or the Sandusky Branch you'd definitely fnd some C&O hoppers. As it was a road generally allied with the B&O, I don't know how many. The PRR did interchange with the C&O at Cincinnati. Moving coal north on the Little Miami system and the Sandusky branch to the massive automated Hullett unloaders at dockside on Lake Erie's Sandusky Bay was major source of traffic north from Cincinnati through Xenia, Columbus, Delaware & Marion. I'd suspect you'd find far more cars of roads allied with the PRR like the L&N VGN and SRR, or which were wholly-owned or controlled subsidiaries such as the N&W, ACL, SAL. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 02:48:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] site info Content-Length: 1100 Dear E.J., East of Indy I could've helped you as I'm building up a collection on the Columbus Division. I wish you luck. I'd like to know more about the lines west of Indy like the Terre Haute & Indianapolis St. Louis, the St. Louis, Vandalia & Terre Haute, the Terre Haute & Peoria and the Indianpolis & Vincennes. If I remeber right there's someone out there modeling the Indianapolis & Frankfort, a line built in the 1920s to carry Chicago-bound coal heading north from the L&N and SRR at Louisville. It ran from the Panhandle main at Ben Davis, Ind., on the western edge of Marion County north to the Terre Haute & Logansport at Franklin. Good Luck. Stay Tuned. I'll be rescheduling the Lines West Fans Fest soon. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:02:47 EDT Subject: PRR SD7 details was Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Content-Length: 1341 In a message dated 9/1/98 11:49:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << I am modeling Fall 1954, as many of you are aware, and I have the two P2K SD9's and am planning to purchase the upcoming three GP7's. (For GP9's, I have to wait for Phase I's!) >> I'm glad I resisted the urge to sarcastically point out the difference between B-B and C-C trucks. The main differences are a longer wheel base to accomodate the bigger truck, ladders on the ends of the long hood, marker light details and without digging my correctly numbered PK2 SD7 (8588, the other is 8589), I believe the rooftop fan arrangement is different with the SD's having more fans (as they had more traction motors and wheels to dynamiclly brake.). Speaking of the Pennsy's SD7s, they were specially equipped with "track washers," water nozzles aimed ahead of the engines to hose fallen traction robbing leaves off the rails. Does anybody out there have a shot of these? Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:09:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Truc Train trailers Content-Length: 2164 In a message dated 9/1/98 12:38:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bubbles@visi.net writes: > Ok folks... > > Since some of us have been chatting about Pennsy trailers.... > Does anyone have any idea what happened to the Truc Train trailers > used by Pennsy after the merger...i assume most were still used in > PC's trailer train service and later retired when they got too old. > But did any make it on to the Conrail trailer pool and are any > still in service with Conrail? As a side note here...I've seen two > former REA trailers (under a different owner and slightly relettered) > down here passing through virginia.those two had the black ownership > letters up in the front side corner and back on the doors.) > Well i'll let this fly and see what happens. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > Hank, I'm going to be real interested in an informed answer to this question, since I don't have one . However, as a distribution consultant, I expect the answer to come out that most PRRZ trailers didn't make it to Conrail. My reasoning is based on the principle that in that era, most trailers stayed in their original fleet about 7 years, and then were replaced. This is partly due to wear and tear, but mostly due to the magic of finance and depreciation. The newest PRRZ trailers would have to stay around 8 years and 1 month to make it to Conrail. In the same period, distribution people were becoming merciless about widening trailers to 102 if not 106 inches inside (more boxes per trailer), and were pushing hard on the 40 foot length. I'd bet anything left under 40 feet lived a really short and unproductive life after 1972. Rick Tipton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:09:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] St. Louis Main Content-Length: 1599 Can anyone give me any info on PRR's St. Louis main. I especially would like info on the Limedale area & Indianapolis. Thanks alot. E.J. Caylor Hi E.J.: Wow - that's a wide open subject, being the whole of the St. Louis Division plus a good piece of the Indianapolis Division. I'm interested in these areas, too, and actively fanned there once upon a time in PC days. There's a lot of material available, plus slides, etc. Can you cite what sources you have on hand, and I'll try to add to your list. For example, have you read James J. D. Lynch's articles on these two divisions in the Keystone? Have you seen the late Don Ball's pictures of Limedale and Indianapolis in his color book The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s? Also, depending on your location, you can tap into the collections of various Lines West fans. And later this winter (postponed from October 17, alas) there should be a Lines West Fans Fest in Xenia OH. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] mail order Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:21:28 -0500 Content-Length: 559 Can anyone recommend a good mail order hobby store. Im in the army stationed in Panama and Im having a terrible time with the store Im currently trying to mail order from. Thank You SSG McWilliams ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 08:43:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] New video Content-Length: 819 Just a note to mention a new video, Vignettes of the Pennsylvania Railroad,Vol. 1, with films of William P. Price, Vic Ketcham, and Karl Walters, by Clear Block Productions. In addition to the ususal Middle Division and NY&LB stuff, there is some interesting footage around Columbus, Ohio for the Lines West-Panhandle fans, which is a welcome change. 1952-1966 A good addition to my library, IMHO. $35 list, $29 at GATS. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Call for Event Information Date: Wed, 2 Sep 98 09:03:31 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1105 As Open House season for model railroad clubs approaches, I'd like to invite PRR entities to submit schedule information for shows, open houses, other related events, etc., for posting on the Timetable page of "Keystone Crossings". Please supply via e-mail in simple paragraph format. I'll do all the HTML coding. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.html for example entries. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:08:56 EDT Subject: Re: PRR SD7 details was Re: [PRR] SD9 vs. GP7 Content-Length: 2717 In a message dated 9/2/98 3:24:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > I > believe the rooftop fan arrangement is different with the SD's having more > fans (as they had more traction motors and wheels to dynamiclly brake.). Correct - the layout of the EMD road switcher or "hood unit" carbody filled the roof with radiator fans on the end away from the cab (this is the "front" for PRR units). Dynamic braking is electrical braking, using the traction motors as generators to hold back the train. This current created is then used to heat up a large bank of resistors, and the d/b fans blow the hot air away. Since the "toaster" grids used in dynamic braking give off a lot of heat, you don't want them next to the cab. This left only the roof right over the diesel engine ("prime mover") as a location for the dynamic braking blister, and there it had to be wrapped around the exhaust stacks. Thus for all the EMD hoods that are equipped with dynamic braking (and thus rooftop d/b blisters), the 4-motors have one d/b fan, and the 6-motors (with 150% of the dynamic braking current to dissipate in the giant toaster grids) have two. This practice started with the first SD, the SD7, and continued through the SD9, SD24 (non-Pennsy), SD35, SD40, SD45, and all the 1970-s era Dash 2's (e.g. SD40-2). So that definitely covers all PRR and PC usage into Conrail. PC's SD38's were bought for low speed hump service, and so did not have dynamics. Bottom line, if you looked across the tops of a bunch of units, and couldn't see the trucks, you still knew the 6-motors by the dual fans on the d/b blister. BTW, not to turn us all into diesel spotters, but the original hood unit roof fans (db and radiator), were cap top type, inherited from the F unit and the E unit. This slight dome over the fan hubs is thus a spotting feature of early first generation hoods. Of course, in later years a cap top fan could be replaced with something else, but mostly they stayed as-built. Check it out on your models. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:08:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] St. Louis Main Content-Length: 849 In a message dated 9/1/98 7:29:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caylorman@juno.com writes: > Ghost Railroads of Indiana I don't know if this is an intended reference to the classic book, but I have heard from a reliable source that Ghost Railroads of Indiana (also GR of Kentucky and GR of Tennessee) is about to be reprinted. This is good news, as these volumes have become extremely scarce and expensive, and most libraries around here have long since had their copies go "missing". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:28:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Accurail HO auto racks Content-Length: 1479 Knowing the quality and accuracy of Accurail products (no pun intended), I think these cars will be an excellent addition to anybody who models the 60's and 70's. I have been waiting a long time for these cars and if Walthers ever does their Cornerstone automobile assembly plant there will be a perfect fit. Derrick J Brashear on 09/01/98 09:13:24 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] Accurail HO auto racks I see that the new Accurail 2 and 3 level auto racks will both be offered decorated with "the Keystone"... anyone knowledgeable care to comment on how their model stacks up against the real thing? http://www.elnet.com/~accurail/autorack.htm -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 98 10:45:58 CST Subject: Re: [PRR] Crosby Articles Content-Length: 1050 Hi, all, >I'm trying to collect all of the articles written by the late John Crosby= > (retired PRR enginecrew member) for Trains magazine. Blessings on you, Tom. I've always thought Crosby's writing was some of the best contemporary writing by a working rail. IMHO the "Second Engine" is a classic. It did more to convey the true feel of steam railroading in the grand manner than anything I have ever read. And his final piece, on his last T1 ride, is almost too good to be true - if only someone with a good movie camera had been there! PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:06:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] St. Louis Main Content-Length: 1041 ******just a quickie to Rick T. , Rick R., and all....thank you very much for the detailed EMD descriptions...!!!! Easier than digging out DSGuide, etc.....funny, how it started...I wrote in, " was this a test..?? "....hahhaha.......Same with our Signal SIG...lotsa newbies, and we are trying our hardest to reach them, not speak in " code ", but spell everything out with factual accuracy for all. Re: PRR TrucTrailers...I remember seeing re-lettered ones..PRR to PC; a few into CR. Someone had compiled a Trailer roster years ago..?? Dick Ross, do you have ?? Maybe Brady McGuire down in TX..??? Important to encourage our successors...!!!.....Thx again, Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:15:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order Content-Length: 704 ****For larger scales especially,and for all for service, I have found.... Trainworld, Brooklyn, Ny...cheap, fast, great. Give #, get stuff asap. Watts Train Shop, Indiana....same, and friendlier...( NOT New Yawkers...) San-Val, California.....excellent, can discuss items intelligently.!!! All advertise in MRer, etc...........Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:35:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght cars From: locoshop@juno.com Content-Length: 1182 Hello all, Just some input on the above subject item. Do not be thinking of Eastern Car Works or Westerfield. This is more along the lines of a styrene style kit the like of Proto 2000 freight cars with the plastic add on details and full underbody detail. These kits are to go together in under 4 hours with full details and full interiors. Price range being looked at $25-$35 each car. (I am NOT saying that LL P2K is bringing these out, it will just be a kit like their freight cars.) Jeremy Helms Southern Serves the South Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] FW: PRR Silver FS-Menu Holder, Coffee Pot & Supreme Set Date: Wed, 02 Sep 98 15:40:18 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1482 I saw this on the Railroadiana mailng list and thought that some folks on the list might be interested... I'm only the messenger, reply to AJSNGS@aol.com not to me! Rob ----- FORWARDED MESSAGE... Subject: [rrdiana] PRR Silver FS-Menu Holder, Coffee Pot & Supreme Set Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:37:42 -0400 (EDT) Resent-From: rrdiana@railnet.nshore.org Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:18:07 EDT From: AJSNGS@aol.com To: rrdiana@railnet.nshore.org I have the following PRR silver available: 1) Menu Holder by International Silver Broadway Pattern 05061, 1947 Nice large keystone on side $140 2) Coffee Pot by International Silver 061, 10 ounce, 1957 Same large keystone $135 3) Supreme Set by International Silver 982, 1929 marked on bottom of bowl. Also backstamped Property of Pennsylvania Railroad Company The silver ring that fits on the top is marked with a keystone $140 All are in excellent shape with no silver loss and the ususal light sink marks. 5 day return, less postage, if not satisfied. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:01:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order Content-Length: 572 I've had good experience with C & D Junction in Ashville, NY. Here is his address; ashtrain@servtech.com. His mail address is in the back of MR. The owners name is Dick Williams. Tell him I sent you. Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 19:07:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New video Content-Length: 1459 I brought that up in July. I carry Clear Block videos and can probably do better on the price for PRR-Talk people. Randy Bobspf@aol.com on 09/02/98 07:43:21 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] New video Just a note to mention a new video, Vignettes of the Pennsylvania Railroad,Vol. 1, with films of William P. Price, Vic Ketcham, and Karl Walters, by Clear Block Productions. In addition to the ususal Middle Division and NY&LB stuff, there is some interesting footage around Columbus, Ohio for the Lines West-Panhandle fans, which is a welcome change. 1952-1966 A good addition to my library, IMHO. $35 list, $29 at GATS. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 19:46:31 -0600 From: Edward Long Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order Content-Length: 623 Try Des Plaines Hobbies at 1468 Lee Street Des Plaines,IL 60018 (847) 297-2118 Ron,Sue, John and the rest of the gang will take good care of you ! They sell all scales and carry a large supply of RR books and publications call today and see..... Ed Long ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] "24 Hours at Harrisburg" Date: Wed, 2 Sep 98 21:18:48 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1822 I have added to my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" with data from the following sources: "Employee Timetable No. 6 - Philadelphia Division," issued April 25, 1954. This document provided passage times of freight trains on the "main line". (I am seeking the Employee Timetable No. 7 - Philadelphia Division, circa late 1954, exact date unknown, which will match the issue date of my other source documents. Notably absent from the current ETT is TrucTrain service, which was introduced in June, 1954 and included symbols LCL-1, LCL-2, and LCL-7. "Through Freight Train Schedules Between Principal Points," issued February 1, 1952. This docoment provided names and consist block information for some of the symbol freights. "Official Guide to the Railways," issued September, 1954. This docoment provided arrival and departure times for Philadelphia-Harrisburg commuter service and passenger trains to and from the west via the Cumberland Valley Branch. Still to come is a massive amount of data, including head end and actual car names from the "Makeup of Passenger Trains, New York Division," dated 2/1/54. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:47:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order Content-Length: 874 In a message dated 9/2/98 8:05:06 PM Central Daylight Time, hogr6683@earthlink.net writes: << Try Des Plaines Hobbies at 1468 Lee Street Des Plaines,IL 60018 (847) 297-2118 Ron,Sue, John and the rest of the gang will take good care of you ! They sell all scales and carry a large supply of RR books and publications call today and see..... >> And as I pointed out to one of the guys looking for a P2K E7 a while back, Ron is a Pennsy fan and keeps a pretty good stock. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:18:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1158 Dear Panama: Don't forget Star Hobby near Annapolis, MD. I have had good luck with him. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Financially Depleted Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway O > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:45:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] mail order-Des Plains Content-Length: 615 Bob, Is Sawa's Polish resturant still there across the street from the depot? seems it was only a few doors down from the hobby shop, but i haven't been there in 10 years. Sure was worth a side trip out from downtown between Amtrak trains. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Sep 1956 22:44:02 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#28484326: PRR Content-Length: 1193 I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. I think these are the same as the Model Power units. Hard to find. Need work, but perhaps a good starting point. Title of item: PRR SHARNOSE A-B-A SET Seller: bulosch@cybergap.net Starts: 09/02/98 13:29:28 PDT Ends: 09/09/98 13:29:28 PDT Price: Currently $26.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=28484326 Item Description: This is very nice, custom painted PRR set by "Roco" Dark green with solid thin yellow or gold stripe . Horn broken off dumy A unit. A-powered, B-dummy, A-dummy. Looks like all the steps are off the B-unit. Buyer pays shipping and ins. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:46:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in interchange?) Content-Length: 2281 In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange with PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb question: can you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I know the exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in advance. >> << L&N = Louisville & Nashville VGN = Virginian SRR = Southern Railroad >> If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois Central interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be found regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to know a little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and business partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct competitors. >Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and competitors as I know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the entries PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western Business partners Louisville & Nashville L&N Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL Southern, SOU Missouri Pacific MP Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY Union Pacific UP New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Direct Competitors Baltimore & Ohuio B&O Chesepeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Systen NYC Michigan Central MC Cincinnati Northern Peoria & Eastern P&E Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) Have fun! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:26:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 3281 >> PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western An excellent list, but I think you mean Lehigh Valley instead of Lehigh & New England. LINESWEST@aol.com on 09/03/98 08:46:14 AM To: greglear@bellsouth.net cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in interchange?) In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange with PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb question: can you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I know the exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in advance. >> << L&N = Louisville & Nashville VGN = Virginian SRR = Southern Railroad >> If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois Central interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be found regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to know a little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and business partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct competitors. >Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and competitors as I know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the entries PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western Business partners Louisville & Nashville L&N Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL Southern, SOU Missouri Pacific MP Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY Union Pacific UP New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Direct Competitors Baltimore & Ohuio B&O Chesepeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Systen NYC Michigan Central MC Cincinnati Northern Peoria & Eastern P&E Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) Have fun! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:45:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 3281 >> PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western An excellent list, but I think you mean Lehigh Valley instead of Lehigh & New England. LINESWEST@aol.com on 09/03/98 08:46:14 AM To: greglear@bellsouth.net cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in interchange?) In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange with PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb question: can you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I know the exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in advance. >> << L&N = Louisville & Nashville VGN = Virginian SRR = Southern Railroad >> If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois Central interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be found regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to know a little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and business partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct competitors. >Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and competitors as I know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the entries PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western Business partners Louisville & Nashville L&N Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL Southern, SOU Missouri Pacific MP Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY Union Pacific UP New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Direct Competitors Baltimore & Ohuio B&O Chesepeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Systen NYC Michigan Central MC Cincinnati Northern Peoria & Eastern P&E Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) Have fun! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 10:30:28 EDT From: Subject: fwd: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in inte... Content-Length: 3783 This may be a dumb question but I've been known to ask stupid questions before. here goes. I've been following this thread about the likely hood of C&O hoppers being found in great numbers on PRR lines. My question is along the same line but froma different perspective. Was it common to find PRR freight cars (no specific type) on roads not affiliated with it. For example, would you find large numbers of PRR boxcars in California, New Mexico, Washington, Idaho, etc. Would hopper cars filled with anthracite coal mined in North Eastern PA find its way to distributors in northern tier states in those same PRR hoppers? And now for a humbling omission. I don't have a very clear idea of how the cars are delivered & tracked from point A to point Q and then back to point A again. Hey, don't laugh. I may be decent at building engines & rollingstock but I never said I understood how the big picture works. Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: , on 9/3/98 9:46 AM: To: SMTP@193SOG@PAMDT[] Cc: SMTP@193SOG@PAMDT[] In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange with PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb question: can you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I know the exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in advance. >> << L&N = Louisville & Nashville VGN = Virginian SRR = Southern Railroad >> If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois Central interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be found regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to know a little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and business partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct competitors. >Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and competitors as I know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the entries PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western Business partners Louisville & Nashville L&N Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL Southern, SOU Missouri Pacific MP Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY Union Pacific UP New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Direct Competitors Baltimore & Ohuio B&O Chesepeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Systen NYC Michigan Central MC Cincinnati Northern Peoria & Eastern P&E Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) Have fun! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:59:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 581 I remembered another railroad they were part owners of: the Richmond, Fredricksburg & Potomac RF&P. It is amazing how many railroads the Pennsy had dealings with and we have not included the Long Island on this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 12:26:01 -0400 From: "Robert G. McKeever, II" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 1387 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > > I remembered another railroad they were part owners of: the Richmond, > Fredricksburg & Potomac RF&P. It is amazing how many railroads the Pennsy > had dealings with and we have not included the Long Island on this list. PRR once owned down to Quantico, VA under the charter of the Alexandria and Fredericksburg. This became the Washington Southern. The six-way ownership of the RF&P was arrived at in 1901 (I think) as a means of assuring fair play for each of the connecting lines (B&O, C&O, PRR, SRR, ACL and SAL). The Washington Southern was merged into the RF&P by 1920. -- =================== Robert G. McKeever, II, KC4VDN rmckeever@psu.edu _____________________________ | ______ |_| | |_||_| | Richmond, Fredericksburg --------------------------|______ and Potomac Railroad ____________123___| | -------/ | | | 1834-1992 _________________|________|______| ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:48:49 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 2134 Hi all, This "Allies and Enemies List" has great potential! We'd like to see it develop into a chart that would show which RR's cars ran in concentration on which PRR lines. Continuing with hopper questions: Did most Berwind/White hoppers come off the branches out of Cresson or were there other areas where these were common? Would Pennsy have operated entire trains of BWCX hoppers from Cresson to Altoona or Pittsburgh? Where did Westmoreland hoppers primarily operate in quantity? Whole trains? As for "enemy" roads, a friend, who grew up in the area tells me that the Pennsy commonly hauled entire trains of NYC hoppers over parts of the Elmira Branch? Somewhere I read that the Pennsy interchanged hoppers loaded with ore with the B&LE. Fact of fiction? Primarily PRR hoppers, B&LE hoppers or a mix? If B&LE, where on the Pennsy did these B&LE hoppers travel? Which non-PRR hoppers would have traveled over the section from Altoona to Johnstown?, to Pittsburgh? Did the Conemaugh and Black Lick have any interchange with PRR in the Johnstown area? C&BL hoppers? Conventional wisdom, as I read it, has mostly said that hoppers "rarely" left home rails. Exceptions to this rule are numerous. I had planned to run only PRR hoppers in my operations but am taking a long second look at my fleet acquisition to determine if I need to mix in others for more proto accuracy. In N-Scale our hopper selection is more restricted than in HO and we'd like to be able to run the ConCor/Bachmann 4-bay offset-side hoppers repainted for roads that would have interchanged them with the PRR. For my own modeling I need to find a road that would have sent these offset hoppers around "The Curve". Gotta run, Thanks in advance, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: fwd: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:18:41 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 3370 On 3 Sep, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > I've been following this thread about the likely hood of C&O hoppers being > found in great numbers on PRR lines. My question is along the same line > but froma different perspective. Was it common to find PRR freight cars > (no specific type) on roads not affiliated with it. For example, would > you find large numbers of PRR boxcars in California, New Mexico, Washington, > Idaho, etc. Boxcars, absolutely. There are rabid Pennsy fans who delight in telling all N.American modellers that they are Pennsy modellers, because Pennsy cars show up on their railroads all the time. For instance, in the last Model RR Planning, there's an article about railroading off in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific Northwest woods. In one shot of the buildings at the end of the line, you can see that the car coupled to the loco is a PRR X29, painted in what must've been fresh Shadow Keystone livery, since it was in the mid-50s. Because of their distinctive low rooflines, X29s can be picked out of yard shots with relative ease. The Pennsy tended to have lots and lots of cars and they went *everywhere*. Check out Rob's freight car pages at http://PRR.Railfan.net/freight/ for car counts in various years. > Would hopper cars filled with anthracite coal mined in North > Eastern PA find its way to distributors in northern tier states in those > same PRR hoppers? I believe that there wasn't a whole lots of transloading; coal yards (like the local oil dealers today) had their own coal trestles. You'll notice that the oldest oil dealers (ie, those that used to deal in coal) are generally along a (probably abandoned) railroad right of way. PRR hoppers went to all the way to the docks carrying export coal. I don't know whether, to order more coal, the local coal dealer called the local freight agent for the railroad he was on, or just called a local coal broker. There was probably some volume point at which the business model changed... Nowadays the power companies contract with the mines, and the railroads compete to carry the freight. At least one power plant has built a new spur to a different railroad (I think it was Texas, and UP vs BNSF) to "encourage" competition. > And now for a humbling omission. I don't have a very clear idea of how the > cars are delivered & tracked from point A to point Q and then back to point > A again. In the pre-computer days, there were lots and lots of clerks shuffling papers around, and the conductor was responsible for moving several sheets of paper along with each car, moving them to and from these clerks. These clerks would decide which cars got put into which trains to make further progress toward their destinations, and they got requests (for loads and empties) from the local agents mentioned above. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 13:58:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1246 On 9/3/98 1:48 PM, Ron Dugas (rond@efn.org) wrote: >As for "enemy" roads, a friend, who grew up in the area tells me that >the Pennsy commonly hauled entire trains of NYC hoppers over parts of >the Elmira Branch? Actually, the NYC and the PRR ran joint coal trains with pool power over the Elmira Branch, but not until the later years. The joint trains ran PRR trackage from Williamsport (I believe) north to Himrod Junction (or is it Nimrod?) where they then took a slight right turn and headed northeast on NYC trackage. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Looking for Philly-Harrisburg commuter TT 1954 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 14:38:33 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1102 I'm looking for a commuter timetable for Harrisburg-Philadelphia for 1954...preferably fall...or better yet, Sept. 26th!!! A standalone timetable will provide more info than the "Official Guide", which apparently published "out of synch" mini timetables. I want to have the best data possible for my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" page. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Looking for 1954 Freight Schedules Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 14:38:37 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1104 I'm looking for a 1954 edition of "Freight Train Schedules Between Principle Points". (NOTE: I am not seeking ETT's with this request; this is the name of an actual document.) The version I have is dated Feb. 1, 1952. Mark Bej has a 1959 revision online. I want to have the best data possible for my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" page. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:42:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Darn...no money From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 1788 On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:20:03 -0400 (EDT) bubbles@visi.net writes: > It fiqures...theres Mr. Johnson selling his brass engines and i >can't even get one..Darn. Would have really liked one of the H class >engines especially that H-6...would have fit well with what i'm modeling. > oh well there be another day...hopefully... > Good luck guys and i hope Mr. Johnson finds a buyer for his >engines... > > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > Its a bummer to be broke....LOL > AAAAAAAAAMEN! Could use an H6 myself. As a note of "heads-up", I'll be interviewing within the week for a job in South Carolina. May have to unsubscribe for a while (temporarily) if I end up moving, but will make enough money to buy Pennsy things or help with restoration projects if it takes off. Wish me luck or say a prayer. Now if someone could turn off that 1/1 scale hurricane, I'll be happy. Thanks. David W. "Staffsgt. York" PS--Yes I outrank Alvin C., but he is still THE Sgt. York, US Army. Wonder if he rode Pennsy rails somewhere on his way to deportation to WW1? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:20:07 -0500 Content-Length: 2871 Roger, check the center sill for the cabin number..... ---------- > From: Wayne S. Betty > To: kirkpatr@mcnet.marietta.edu > Cc: PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars > Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 2:48 PM > > Howdy all: > While up in the Ephrata area today, I had the chance to check things out. > At the old Reading and Columbia station in downtown Ephrata is an N8 labeled > PC 23210. It does have a PRR keystone on the side and you are invited to > call a local number for a tour. I've called the answering machine and will > let you know what information I get back. > > Up the road aways ( on PA 272 ) is the Doll House Express. They have 3 > N5c's. Only one has a number on its exterior, 46173R. The store > attendants did not know anything about the cars. They did attempt to > contact the owner of the cars, however, he is out on vacation. They let a > message with his daughter, and will contact me if he wants to talk to me > about them. > They also have several heavy weight RPOs. > > That's it for now. > cos > > Roger Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have PRR 477231/CR 46163R listed in 2 places: > > > > Carlisle, OH, across from 453 Park Drive, and > > > > Ephrata, PA, Doll House Express, Rt 272. > > > > The car showed up in Carlilse a bit over a year ago and was reported in > > Ephrata several years ago. This would allow for it to be the Ephrata > > car sold and moved to Ohio 1 to 1.5 years ago. Anyone know? > > > > Also reported at Ephrata is CR 23210, ex-PRR 478030. However, the CR > > caboose page indicates CR 23210 was PRR 478201? How about an opinion on > > this one? > > > > Thanks, Roger > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:16:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and enemies ruminations. Content-Length: 4020 In a message dated 9/3/98 6:49:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: << My fellow SPF-ers, Ever wonder why the Norfolk and Western had chicken coop pilots on their steam locomotives, and used position light signals---JUST LIKE THE PENNSY?!! I think there was an ownership arrangement for a number of years that allied some of their engineering and operating practices. This may have only tangential relation to this thread, at least as far as hauling another road's hoppers, but it does add another dimension to the issue. >> It was more than a slight ownership interest. The N&W for most of the 29th Century was essentially a wholly-owned (90%+) but independently-operated subsidiary of the Pennsylvania RR Co. (with most of the stock probably held by the Pennsylvania Co.). The Wabash, Lehigh Valley (changed it to LNE is a moment of doubt) Atlantic Coast Liine, Seaboard Air Line and Boston & Maine all had at least a majority or controllig interest owned by the PRR. The Toledo, Peoria & Western was past of Lines West as a wholly-owned property from circa 1890 until 1927 when a half interest was sold to the Santa Fe and it was spin off as the TP&W. In 1929 the PRR Co., mainly through its wholly-owned "P" Co, controlled so much of eastern rail traffic that fear of ICC intervention caused the PRR board to organize the wholly-owned but independently operated Pennroad Corp. to take the DT&I off Henry Ford's hands. As several posts point out, there were exceptions. The NYC on the Elmira branch, the 33-mile stretch of the Central Ohio RR between Columbus and Newark, Ohio at the west endof the Panhandle Division jiointly-owned by the B&O and the PRR. The statement about "enemy" car should be seen as a general rule dependent on location. As a general rule, it would govern the number of foriegn road cars appearing in trains. My modeling interest is the Columbus Division mainline and its interchange with the DT&I at South Charleston, Ohio, about 2/3s of the way between Columbus and Xenia (heading west). I would purchase about 10 cars from the L&N, NC&StL, SAL, SOU, N&W and VGN car for every C&O, B&O or NYC system car in traffic outbound from Cincinnati. Outbound full coal drags would be primarily from the coal roads, esp. L&N, SOU and N&W which had massive fleets of open hoppers on the assumption they'd be heading through Colunbus to the Sandusky Branch and the automated coal docks at Sandusky on Lake Erie's Sandusky Bay. The full drag would have a smattering of PRR hoppers returning home.. The returning empty drag would have no PRR hoppers, assuming that AAR car-handling rules were followed. An ore- carrying drag heading toward Cincinnati from Sandusky would have fewer PRR cars. While there was steel smelted at the ARMCO (American Rolling Mill Co.) works in Middletown served by the PRR at the west end of the Lebanon branch (actually the Middletown & Cincinnati, a 14-mile branch of the Lebanon branch which was formally known as the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Railway), it primaarily used scrap in its furnaces. Scrap-loaded gons would be more common on the Columbus Division than ore-carrying hoppers. Coils of rolled steel in covered gons or coil carr either outbound from ARMCO or inbound from the mills back east. Coal drags headed west to Dayton or south to Cincinnati would probably probably have an occasional hopper from a southern being returned home per AAR that'd be replaced by an occasional car from the :LV, B&M some other eastern linr on their deadhead returns back east. just sum ruminaations. Tom V ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:52:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in inte... Content-Length: 1166 Kris and all, The most commonly interchanged freight car was the boxcar. The lest likely car to see on the Pennsy would be a two bay Covered hopper from a Western Carrier. Think about it the commodity that it hauled is least likely to end up in the East, now I did not say never here. Also open top hoppers were not as likely to interchange. You must understand that competing road want to keep the traffic they generate not ship it off line, it is better utilization of equipment. Think of it like this if you send you cars onto a competing carriers line how do you get them back except by filing a complaint with the AAR and you who what the fine is, well in today's world it is $35.00. Not much restitution if you are short on boxcars in the middle of a grain harvest. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:10:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers ininterchange Content-Length: 1314 Folks, Did anyone mention PRSL, ( two-thirds ) or did I miss it? How about Monongahela (partial owner), as well as joint ownership of Washington Terminal, Chicago Union Statation Company and I don't know how many other union station and terminal companies. Pennsy did have it's finger in a lot of pies, indeed. Seems like TP&W was in there somewhere. As regards Pennsy hoppers getting around, it would seem like a good shot at having one show up most anywhere. In a Minneapolis & St. Louis book there's a Pennsy H-21 hopper right in front of the caboose in a Peoria-Minneapolis time freight. In a strange twist, in another book, on the B&O, the first car in a train grinding up a mountain in W.VA. is an M&ST.L hopper! Since those cars were supposed to be used essentially in Illinois, guess hoppers got around too. Anything goes, of course with Pennsy boxcars and you just gotta have a few even if you're modelling Arizona. Barry Peltier . ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:14:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Connections and Interlining(long) Content-Length: 7741 Hi PRR-Talkers, I've been reading the thread on Allies/Enemies/Connections etc. with interest. First of all, the question about C&O hoppers was a good one. I'm sure C&O hopper equipment got interchanged to the PRR all the time at common points like Cincinnati or Columbus. But if we're talking about streams of C&O hopper cars out of Columbus to the Great Lakes, 1) I don't see it in pictures 2) It doesn't make sense from a traffic point of view-the C&O had a perfectly good Great Lakes harbor facility up at/near Toledo, and a perfectly good double track railroad from the Ohio River to Columbus (Parsons Yard), then continuing north through Delaware, Marion, and Upper Sandusky (PRR Fort Wayne line crossing), to C&O's Walbridge Yard in Toledo. Railroads don't normally "short haul" themselves - it's more profitable to carry it all the way. Direct Competitors to PRR The distinction about parallelling/competing railroads that was brought up is a good one. RECOGNIZED COMPETITORS of the PRR, who would normally be most reluctant to give up any traffic, were (amplifying Tom Vondruska's list): Baltimore & Ohio B&O Chesapeake & Ohio C&O New York Central Lines/New York Central System, including New York Central Railroad (NYC) Canada Southern (CASO) Michigan Central (MCRR, consolidated about 1920?) Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (LS&MS, consolidated 1920) Cincinnati Northern (NOR?, consolidated 1920) Toledo & Ohio Central/Kanawha & Michigan (TOC/K&M consolidated 1920?) Peoria & Eastern P&E (mostly-owned subsidiary between Springfield OH and Peoria IL) Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) (CCC&StL, consolidated 1920) Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE, 92%? Owned subsidiary) Indiana Harbor Belt (50% owned with Milwaukee Road) Nickel Plate Road NKP Erie (and Erie Lackawanna EL) Canadian National/Grand Trunk Western between Buffalo and Chicago Five of the 6 above were recognized as "Official Territory Trunk Lines"; the C&O isn't probably because it leaves Ohio for Kentucky before it gets any farther east than Portsmouth OH. Anyway, the 5 plus Pennsy were notorious competitors, and often appear together whenever "MONOPOLY" or "ROBBER BARONS" are mentioned in American railroad histories. We know plenty of "interlining" (routing over more than one of these competitors) took place, but it would normally only happen when forced by the origin and destination being on different railroads. PRR-Controlled Railroads Railroad historians can give three answers to the question of whom the Pennsy controlled: The first, flip answer is that in the 19th Century, the Pennsy's influence was such that it cowed everybody. However, this answer isn't useful for an interline discussion. The second answer is that before trust-busting really got started (I think 1905-1910 for railroads), the Pennsy AND the New York Central held large blocks of stock in many/most of the other Eastern railroads. This was for the purpose of keeping freight rates from getting too competitive (read low). But most of us are modeling well after 1920. From then until about 1964, the Pennsy was known to own stock in the following roads. Be careful, because owning stock in a company is not quite the same as controlling it, and certainly not to be confused with operating it: >> PRR-owned (or held by Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western (N&W), the Pennsy's biggest outside income stream, and also the #1 farm team for seasoning young talent) Wabash Railway (WAB) Detroit, Toledo & Ironton (DTI) acquired from Henry Ford, as opposed to Ford Motor Company, and owned by Pennroad Corp. Another recognized farm team. Lehigh Valley (LV) And the Toledo, Peoria & Western was owned 50/50 with the ATSF in this period. I'm not aware of any stock ownership position the Pennsy may have had (in this period) in: Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Through Route Connections of PRR I have to admit the label of "Business Partners" is a new one on me, but if we look at the healthy interchange relationship between two or more roads that join end-to-end to form a through route, then the PRR formed active high- volume through routes with many roads. Some of them were: New Haven (NH), via New York Harbor and other routes Boston & Maine (B&M) via the New Haven Atlantic Coast Line (ACL), via RF&P at Washington (including passenger trains into New York) Seaboard Air Line (SAL), via RF&P at Washington (including passenger trains into New York) Southern (SOU), at Washington (including passenger trains into New York) plus via Cincinnati or Louisville Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O), at Washington (including passenger trains into New York) Norfolk & Western (N&W) at Columbus OH and Cincinnati Louisville & Nashville (L&N) (controlled by ACL), via Cincinnati or Louisville Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis NCStL (controlled by L&N in this period), via L&N at Nashville Illinois Central IC, at Louisville or Indianapolis Missouri Pacific MP via St.Louis, including sleepers and much headend equipment to Texas St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY via Frisco at St. Louis Union Pacific UP at St. Louis plus via C&NW at Chicago And back to the original point - strings of coal hoppers Having gone through all the above, now an answer about fleets of C&O hoppers on the Pennsy should make more sense. C&O coal traffic was loaded online in C&O hoppers in West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, or in southern Ohio's Hocking Valley. Tom Vondruska ("LINESWEST") and I are both interested in Pennsy lines radiating out of Columbus OH. At least in this area of Ohio, traffic logic says the bulk of C&O coal would stay on C&O home rails all the way to Toledo or Chicago. On the other hand, L&N coal coming north onto the Pennsy at Cincinnati will be everywhere - in utility power plants, and on the way to Sandusky. Additionally, the N&W coal coming out of West Virginia will roll right to the end of N&W track in Columbus, at Joyce Avenue Yard. And the west end of Joyce Avenue is the east end of PRR Grogan Yard, which sent all that N&W coal up the Sandusky Branch to Lake Erie. Pictures show that these Sandusky Branch trains were either solid strings of N&W hoppers (including VGN after 1960) or solid strings of L&N hoppers. The absence of PRR hoppers should not surprise us; the PRR didn't originate the Sandusky traffic. Of course, we know the power before diesels was PRR J-1's, plus (for one summer) oil-burning rental 2-10-4's from the Santa Fe. For you mid-Ohio railfans, note that all this Sandusky coal was just one component of the 150 trains a day that once passed the depot at Marion OH. It was quite a show. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West P.S. If you ever need to absolutely go bonkers, pick up an old ORER, turn to the Pennsy entry, and read the huge list of interchange points. Then think about modeling the traffic flow. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:00:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers Content-Length: 626 In a message dated 9/3/98 1:17:27 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Actually, the NYC and the PRR ran joint coal trains with pool power over the Elmira Branch, but not until the later years. >> However, still in the steam era. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:54:01 PDT Content-Length: 1249 >This "Allies and Enemies List" has great potential! We'd like to see it>develop into a chart that would show which RR's cars ran in >concentration on which PRR lines. ___________________________________ My fellow SPF-ers, Ever wonder why the Norfolk and Western had chicken coop pilots on their steam locomotives, and used position light signals---JUST LIKE THE PENNSY?!! I think there was an ownership arrangement for a number of years that allied some of their engineering and operating practices. This may have only tangential relation to this thread, at least as far as hauling another road's hoppers, but it does add another dimension to the issue. Andrew Harmantas, an SPF, watching trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today....again. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 98 11:41:43 CST Subject: [PRR] Ghost Railroads books... Content-Length: 1124 Hi, all, SOmeone mentioned the re-printing of the three "Ghost Railroads" books by Elmer Sulzer. I found them listed on the AMAZON.COM website - advanced orders were being taken, but I did not have time to find out who's doing the publishing. The Ghost Railroads of Indiana volume has a section on the PRR Madison, IN incline and some other misc. parts of the PRR. I'd suggest buying these books while you can, since the used copies were going for BIG BUCKS. These are neat books - lots of good photos. I haven't seen the GR of Kentucky and Tennessee but I understand there's lots on shortlines and n. g. rr's. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:49:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in inte... Content-Length: 2077 In a message dated 9/3/98 10:09:05 AM Central Daylight Time, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL writes: <> Any online customer of the PRR who had a customer in LA, Albuquerque, or Seattle would keep their shipment in one car. They either went in a Western RR car which was available or a PRR car. Remember, hogs could go coast to coast without changing in Chicago but people couldn't (Robert Young). << I don't have a very clear idea of how the cars are delivered & tracked from point A to point Q and then back to point A again. >> In the days of the PRR, waybills gave the routing. Lots and lots of clerks. Official Guides and other publications gave the contact point and delivery point of empties to get them home again. There were national rules and sometimes individual railroads policies about routing (other better experts than I can tell you the differences). Thus, if the Sante Fe had a customer in California shipping back East, they looked for a foreign road empty heading that way first, before using a home road car. Also, cars were very specific. Thus you couldn't use a "dirty" boxcar when a clean lading car was specified. Dedicated cars were directed to be rerouted empty back to the origin (say auto parts cars) shortest and most direct way. Special cars, such as PRR Merchandise cars were usually kept captive on the road as much as possible. A simplistic answer,and as I say others are more expert at it than myself, but that's about the way it works. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 08:49:00 -0700 From: "Brady McGuire" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cresson ( hoppers in interchange?) Content-Length: 3296 My Cresson years are '55 to '65. I remember lots of C&I hoppers on the branch from Ebensburg, (Cambria and Indiana, Bethlehem Steel ?? road) I don't recall any Berwind hoppers at Cresson. I suspect that they would have entered the PRR at South Fork. I remember many trains of B&LE hoppers moving thru Cresson. Solid trains of B&LE with PRR power and cabin. Brady (Penn Tex) -----Original Message----- From: Ron Dugas [SMTP:rond@efn.org] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 10:48 AM To: bmcguire; PRR-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson (was: C&I hoppers in interchange?) From: Ron Dugas Date: Thu, Sep 3, 1998 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson hoppers in interchange?) To: PRR-talk Hi all, This "Allies and Enemies List" has great potential! We'd like to see it develop into a chart that would show which RR's cars ran in concentration on which PRR lines. Continuing with hopper questions: Did most Berwind/White hoppers come off the branches out of Cresson or were there other areas where these were common? Would Pennsy have operated entire trains of BWCX hoppers from Cresson to Altoona or Pittsburgh? Where did Westmoreland hoppers primarily operate in quantity? Whole trains? As for "enemy" roads, a friend, who grew up in the area tells me that the Pennsy commonly hauled entire trains of NYC hoppers over parts of the Elmira Branch? Somewhere I read that the Pennsy interchanged hoppers loaded with ore with the B&LE. Fact of fiction? Primarily PRR hoppers, B&LE hoppers or a mix? If B&LE, where on the Pennsy did these B&LE hoppers travel? Which non-PRR hoppers would have traveled over the section from Altoona to Johnstown?, to Pittsburgh? Did the Conemaugh and Black Lick have any interchange with PRR in the Johnstown area? C&BL hoppers? Conventional wisdom, as I read it, has mostly said that hoppers "rarely" left home rails. Exceptions to this rule are numerous. I had planned to run only PRR hoppers in my operations but am taking a long second look at my fleet acquisition to determine if I need to mix in others for more proto accuracy. In N-Scale our hopper selection is more restricted than in HO and we'd like to be able to run the on Cor/Bachmann 4-bay offset-side hoppers repainted for roads that would have interchanged them with the PRR. For my own modeling I need to find a road that would have sent these offset hoppers around "The Curve". Gotta run, Thanks in advance, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:09:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re allies and enemies Content-Length: 930 frisco484@hotmail.com (Andrew Harmantas) wrote the following: Ever wonder why the Norfolk and Western had chicken coop pilots on their steam locomotives, and used position light signals---JUST LIKE THE PENNSY?!! I think there was an ownership arrangement for a number of years that allied some of their engineering and operating practices. He failed to mention that it was a lawyer up from the ranks of Norfolk and Western, who became the last President of PRR. I beleive that it was Saunders who negotated the CR merger, thus ending the PRR. Am I correct? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:01:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 538 Interesting and informative response - but since original question dealt with repainting 4 Bay Offsett side hoppers - think I'd recommend C&O - B&O only Dick Ross Cleveland Ohio ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:30:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New video Content-Length: 706 In a message dated 9/2/98 7:04:22 PM Central Daylight Time, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: << I brought that up in July. I carry Clear Block videos and can probably do better on the price for PRR-Talk people. Randy >> Missed your post. Probably while I was unsubscribed during my trip to KC for the Natonal. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:55:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers Content-Length: 1248 In a message dated 98-09-03 13:38:27 EDT, you write: << Somewhere I read that the Pennsy interchanged hoppers loaded with ore with the B&LE. Fact of fiction? Primarily PRR hoppers, B&LE hoppers or a mix? If B&LE, where on the Pennsy did these B&LE hoppers travel? >> Fact the PRR delivered raw iron ore imported from Labrador from their ore pier in South Phila. to Butler Jct. north of Pittsburgh for delivery to the B&LE to go to the Saxonburg sintering plant owned by USS . I remember trains of Bessemer jennies as well as PRR hoppers and jennies being used. Routing was Phila-Pittsburgh via main line Phila to Parkesburg, A&S Parkesburg to Columbia Royalton Br to Harrisburg . Harris to Johnstown via main line. Johnstown to Kiski Jct and Kiski Jct to Butler. These trains lasted into Conrail when the boats were in Phila two to three trains a day were common. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:28:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] C&O hoppers in interchange? Content-Length: 944 In a message dated 8/28/98 11:16:52 PM Central Daylight Time,I wrote : << << Can anybody tell me or point me to a source to discover whether the PRR carried C&O hoppers in any volume? >> It may take me a while to get the exact locations, because I'll have to go through a lot of videos (a fun job, but time consuming) , but I seem to recall lots of C&O, N&W, and some L&N hoppers on lines west of Pittsburgh >> Hit it the first time. Green Frog Production "The Pennsylvania Railroad" has strings of C&O hoppers at Marion (Ohio) crossing the NYC and B&O. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:55:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers ininterchange Content-Length: 1402 We must not forget they owned stock in the C&O and the B&O at the turn of the century. KTrick45@aol.com on 09/03/98 08:18:37 PM To: Randy Williamson/Marathon cc: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers ininterchange ?) In a message dated 98-09-03 10:29:22 EDT, Randy wrote: << >> PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad Corp.) Norfolk & Western N&W Wabash Railway WAB Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) Lehigh & New Englland LNE Boston & Maine B&M Atlantic Coast Line ACL Seaboard Air Line SAL Toledo, Peoria & Western <<>> >>An excellent list, but I think you mean Lehigh Valley instead of Lehigh & New England.<< And don't forget : Pittsburgh & West Virginia P&WV (Pennroad controlled) Montour M until 1958, MTR afterward (PRR co-owned with P&LE) Monongahela MRY (PRR co-owned with B&O and P&LE) Pittsburgh, Chartiers & Youghiogheny PC&Y (PRR co-owned with P&LE) ...among others... Peace Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:38:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Content-Length: 3728 If memory serves, in the '50s the Pennsylvania, or one of it's companies, owned: 99% of the N&W, which explains a lot, like borrowed steam, and position light signals. A third of the Wabash, which in turn controlled the DT&I, the Ann Arbor, and the New Jersey, Indiana and Illinois. The NJI&I switched the Studebaker plant in South Bend. Half of the TP&W. The other half belonged to the Santa Fe. I'm not sure what the involvement was with the LIRR and the Lehigh Valley - ownership, lease, or what. I've never heard of a PCo control of the B&M, ACL or SAL. Please explain. The ACL controlled L&N, which controlled NC&StL Pat Egan (no web access) On Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:46:14 EDT LINESWEST@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 9/3/98 1:26:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >greglear@bellsouth.net writes: > ><< Thanks for posting your answer regarding C&O hoppers in interchange >with > PRR. In your email you mentioned the L&N, VGN and SRR. Dumb >question: can > you spell out the names of these Railroads since I'm not sure if I >know the > exact names of these roads that you are referring to? Thank you in >advance. > >> > ><< L&N = Louisville & Nashville >VGN = Virginian >SRR = Southern Railroad >>> >If you're modeling further west, the L&N, Southern and Illinois >Central >interchanged north-south traffic at Louisville so these cars could be >found >regularly on the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis. > >When modeling traffic from off the line you're modeling, it pays to >know a >little about the corporate structure. Cars from subsidaries and >business >partners would apear far more frequently than cars of direct >competitors. > >>Wat follows is a list of subsidiaries, business partners and >competitors as I >know them. I hope that others on the list can add to or correct the >entries > >PRR-owned or controlled subsidiaries (or Pennsylvania Co. or Pennroad >Corp.) > >Norfolk & Western N&W >Wabash Railway WAB >Detroit, Toledo & Ironton DTI (Pennroad Corp.) >Lehigh & New Englland LNE >Boston & Maine B&M >Atlantic Coast Line ACL >Seaboard Air Line SAL >Toledo, Peoria & Western > >Business partners >Louisville & Nashville L&N >Nashville, Chatanooga & St. Louis NCStL >Southern, SOU >Missouri Pacific MP >Missouri-Kansas-Texas KATY >Union Pacific UP >New York, New Haven & Hartford HYHN&H >St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) SLSF > >Direct Competitors > >Baltimore & Ohuio B&O >Chesepeake & Ohio C&O >New York Central Systen NYC > Michigan Central MC > Cincinnati Northern > Peoria & Eastern P&E > Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (Big 4) CCC&StL > Pittsburgh & Lake Erie (P&LE) > > >Have fun! > >Tom Vondruska > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:05:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ghost Railroads books... Content-Length: 1380 >From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) >Date: Fri, 4 Sep 98 11:41:43 CST >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Ghost Railroads books... >Sender: > >Hi, all, > >SOmeone mentioned the re-printing of the three "Ghost Railroads" books by >Elmer Sulzer. I found them listed on the AMAZON.COM website - advanced >orders were being taken, but I did not have time to find out who's doing >the publishing. Indiana University Press > The Ghost Railroads of Indiana volume has a section on the >PRR Madison, IN incline and some other misc. parts of the PRR. I'd suggest >buying these books while you can, since the used copies were going for BIG >BUCKS. These are neat books - lots of good photos. I haven't seen the GR >of Kentucky and Tennessee but I understand there's lots on shortlines and n. >g. rr's. WERE going for big bucks, I don't think that I would be willing to pay $350 when I can pay $35. :-) :-) :-) Roger H ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:56:10 -0700 Subject: [PRR] out of interest... From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 2912 Went to lower Delaware again this past Tuesday and Wednesday. Around 9am on Tuesday, I watched the Maryland & Delaware RR crew close the bridge over the Canal at Lewes (pronounced Lewis). This is done by hand!! This bridge is shown in our PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment (don't remember which volume, and don't have it with me) in the section on MOW. The book shows a Baldwin S-12 pulling the Pennsy's track clearance car over this same bridge in '67 (I was just born then). The bridge, I was told was built in the late 1800's, but rebuilt in 1916. That is the year that is engraved in the new concrete embankments, as the bridge was restored to original paint and refurbished last year by a historical society and the State. The MDDE conductor told me as they reopened the bridge, that they could motorize the bridge for under $4,000. The historical society is fighting the idea. Of course, the railroad men said, they would be glad for the historical society to hand crank the bridge every week for them!! The MDDE RR serves the Barcroft chemical plant as its only client on the branch, where minerals are taken from the ocean water to make products such as Maalox. The branch is the old Junction and Breakwater RR on the Delmarva Peninsula, later absorbed by the Pennsy as the 20th century took hold. A dinner train operates on this track as well--the Queen Ann's Railroad, out of Lewes. I took photos of the locomotive, former Delaware Coast Lines ALCo T-6 #19, and measured the hood details. This info will be sent to Joe at Liberty Models to see if it is worth making a T-6 hood for the Atlas S-4 loco. Easy conversion. Number 19 is former Pennsy 9846. The Coast Line also had another T-6, #17, formerly PRR 9844. Seventeen was sold to the Arkansas and Missouri RR, but I'm still confirming that. Rumor also has it that the manager of the Coast Line has two road Alcos; one being NF&D #2--nicknamed the Queen in Yanossey's Tidewater Triangle by Morning Sun. When I confirm this info, I'll let you Alcophiles know. If you want to read about a first class railroad operation, read about the Arkansas & Missouri in this month's release of Trains. The other T-6s, 2 RS1s, and 2 C420's all came from operations on Delmarva. SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:33:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR allies Content-Length: 708 ***Re: ownership..thanks Barry, for one of my favorites, P-RSL...a property that I worked on for PRR and NJT......also my license plate !........and, while in NJ, how about Lehigh & Hudson River...the real bridge line, owned 6 (?) ways for traffic to /from NH / Maybrook...there are about 15 more missing, also...so many...Good Holiday !!...Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:36:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re allies and enemies Content-Length: 897 In a message dated 9/4/98 1:58:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, TVPedro@aol.com writes: << He failed to mention that it was a lawyer up from the ranks of Norfolk and Western, who became the last President of PRR. I beleive that it was Saunders who negotated the CR merger, thus ending the PRR. Am I correct? >> *******No, but close..Long before CR (4/1/76..apropos), Stuart Saunders arranged for the Penn Central Merger, effective Feb. 1, 1968....a day that will live in infamy...... Happy Holidaze..!!!...............Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:13:46 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars Content-Length: 2155 Howdy All: I had a nice phone call from the owner of the cabins at "The Doll Express" today. Unfortunately, he had no idea what the car numbers are. He did give me his permission to check them out. I'll try to get up to them on Saturday. Thank you one and all for the center sill suggestion. Unfortunately, from the quick inspection I gave the 46173R, the undercarriage has been painted. Hopefully the inside of the cabins have not. The two cabins not visible from the road have a deck built around them at floor height. I didn't want to go around back or crawl underneath the deck without the owners permission. Anyway, now that I have it, its off to the races. If all else fails, the owner said he would look for his purchase order. He remembered that the numbers were listed there. cos Roger Kirkpatrick wrote: > Hi, > > I have PRR 477231/CR 46163R listed in 2 places: > > Carlisle, OH, across from 453 Park Drive, and > > Ephrata, PA, Doll House Express, Rt 272. > > The car showed up in Carlilse a bit over a year ago and was reported in > Ephrata several years ago. This would allow for it to be the Ephrata > car sold and moved to Ohio 1 to 1.5 years ago. Anyone know? > > Also reported at Ephrata is CR 23210, ex-PRR 478030. However, the CR > caboose page indicates CR 23210 was PRR 478201? How about an opinion on > this one? > > Thanks, Roger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re allies and enemies Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 16:22:09 PDT Content-Length: 1094 ! I think there was an ownership arrangement for a number of >years that allied some of their engineering and operating practices. > >He failed to mention that it was a lawyer up from the ranks of Norfolk and >Western, who became the last President of PRR. I beleive that it was Saunders _____________________ He failed to mention it because he didn't know it. A discussion of that fact might generate some healthy debate down here in Tidewater, Virginia, where the NS holds sway, but I won't participate. I just watch trains. Andrew Harmantas, still waiting for the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 19:54:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re allies and enemies Content-Length: 686 Afraid you're right about Saunders, and his equally cupable counterpart, Perlman of of the NYC, who engineered the Penn Central debacle/tragedy/disaster. Eight years later PC became part of Conrail. P.S.-please folks, don't keep forgetting PRSL, 2/3 of whose stock was owned by Pennsy, the remainder by Reading Company. B.P. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcol268@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 23:36:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re Allies and enemies Content-Length: 1199 How does the Reading fit in as a competitor? They had many lines and branches in SE PA and competed for the local commuter and other traffic.I didn't see them mentioned in any of the previous lists. Did the PRR exchange have any passanger car exchanges/joint service with the Noerthwestern roads at chicago like the pooled-equipment Florida trains? In doing some research on the Pennsy J1, I came across an article on the C&O T-1. {looks funny w/out a keystone and cast pilot :-).} The 40 C&O 2-10-4s were designed specifically to handle coal drags, unassisted across Ohio exept for pushers accross the Ohio River bridge and at Columbus and did so for about 12 years before the PRR bought the blueprints during WWII. This should support the idea that the C&O would have carried most of the traffic on home rail. JLC, SPF ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Sep 98 10:41:14 EDT From: Subject: [PRR] poppet valves Content-Length: 999 Dumb question number 1,318. While reading Pennsy K-4s Remembered, the author made several mentions of experimental applications of oscillating and rotary poppet valves on the steam chests. What exactly are poppet valves? I assume they regulate the flow of steam into the cylinder. For some reason I thought they sat atop the locomotive boiler. Previous posts to the list have indicated you could hear the distinctive sound created by these valves on other types of PRR locomotives. What's so special about the way they sound? Kris Kollar aka. Poster Boy for the Steam Locomotive Knowledge Challenged Association ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:42:41 -0400 Content-Length: 2890 Tom, Thank you for your extremely helpful answer -- now to find some pictures. Again, thank you. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: LINESWEST@aol.com [mailto:LINESWEST@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 3:21 AM > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and > enemies ruminat... > > > In a message dated 9/5/98 9:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > greglear@bellsouth.net writes: > > << Prior to 1960, did Pennsy ever haul > any Ore cars of the type that Walthers has produced to go along > with its Ore > Dock (see a review of the Ore Dock and Cars in the May 1998 > issue of Model > Railroading, page 14)? These Walthers Ore cars are being > produced with the > roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the > Pennsy have > ever hauled any of these type Ore cars > to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank you for your > anticipated response. >> > > Greg, > > Funny you should ask. Today I recieved a PRR Columbus Div. > ETT No. 16 eff. > 1:01 A.M. EST/12:01 a.m. CST April 29, 1951 I purchased on E-bay > last week. On > page 77 under the heading 1160 B-2 Other Equipment Restrictions is the > following entry about DM&IR ore cars on the Panhandle: > > "Duluth, Miissabe & Iron Range Railway Company Class U-22 > ore cars in Series > 27,000 to 27,499 restricted as follows: > > "Maximum speed -- when loaded, 35 miles per hour. > "Through Bridge 4.17, Marble Cliff -- 30 miles per hour. > "Through Bridge 119.86, west of Newman -- 10 miles per hour." > > The identical wording is contained in the Western Region > Columbus Division > (Employee) Time Table No. 5, in effect 1:01 a.m.EST/12:01a.m.CST > Sept. 29, > 1953. > In the Buckeye Region (Employee) Time Table No.9, in effect 1:01 > a.m.EST/12:01 a.m. CST Sunday April 30, 1961, there was more extensive > dioscussion on 93 including weight restriction instructions on handling > coupled strings of loaded ore jennies. > > Marble Cliff was 4.0 miles west of Front Street (Columbus > Union Terminal) on > the Columbus Division's "Freight Line," the ex-Columbus, Chicago & Indiana > Central/Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh Rw Columbus-Chicago maionline. > Newman was on the ex-CC&IC/CStL&P Richmond-Indianapolis > mainline 0.2 miles > west of the busy Richmond, Ind., depot. > > Hope this helps. > > Tom V. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 98 15:09:54 CST Subject: [PRR] Staple Bend Tunnel... Content-Length: 915 Hi, all, On my way to the East Broad Top Fall Spectacular I hope to do some railfanning on the PRR between Johnstown and Altoona. I've got some fairly recent magazine articles on the part of the line as well as some good maps. And here's my question - is the old Portage RR Staple Bend tunnel worth the hike in to see? Which end? And which is the best way in - from Mineral Point or from Conemaugh? Thanks!! PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 03:22:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in Content-Length: 639 In a message dated 9/5/98 11:35:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks Tom. How about the Long Island Rail Road being considered a PRR-owned or controlled subsidiary? Sincerely, >> oops. That was an er, rather glaring omission on my part. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and enemies Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:52:08 -0400 Content-Length: 2364 Tom, Thank you for your informative and educational email regarding PRR allies/enemies freight cars. Question: Prior to 1960, did Pennsy ever haul any Ore cars of the type that Walthers has produced to go along with its Ore Dock (see a review of the Ore Dock and Cars in the May 1998 issue of Model Railroading, page 14)? These Walthers Ore cars are being produced with the roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the Pennsy have ever hauled any of these type Ore cars to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank you for your anticipated response. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > LINESWEST@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 11:17 PM > To: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and enemies ruminations. > snip, cut, snip, cut, cut cut, snip > Outbound full coal drags would be primarily from the coal > roads, esp. L&N, > SOU and N&W cut, cut, cut, cut snip,cnip, snip, cut > An ore- > carrying drag heading toward Cincinnati from Sandusky would have fewer PRR > cars. > While there was steel smelted at the ARMCO (American > Rolling Mill Co.) works > in Middletown served by the PRR at the west end of the Lebanon branch > (actually the Middletown & Cincinnati, a 14-mile branch of the > Lebanon branch > which was formally known as the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern > Railway), it > primaarily used scrap in its furnaces. cut, snip, snip, cut, cut, cut, cut ,snip, snip, snip > > Tom V > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim & Carol Raffa" Subject: [PRR] Centennial History Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 10:22:35 -0400 Content-Length: 622 A few months ago there was an inquiry about finding a centennial history of PRR. by Burgess & Kennedy. I have one available in very good condition for $100.00, includes postage and insurance. If Interested E-mail me, First Come First Serve. blkdiam@ptd.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:00:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] for you francophones Content-Length: 451 http://www.mygale.org/00/thiriet/prr_indx.htm Just randomly happened upon this... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 19:53:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings DR-6-4-2000 shark A unit Content-Length: 1997 I just realized I forgot to mention the arrival of this model here (I mentioned it on the diesel modelling list the other night) Following is the bulk of what I posted there ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Mine arrived today (along with a letter indicating that I was apparently customer #1:-) I just opened it and gave it the once-over. Looks good. Notably: a) the roof detail appears to match the photos I have, which admittedly I can't make out very well. b) lacking shots of the rear of the units, I can't comment on the accuracy of that portion, but it compares well with the Roco/Model Power/soon-to-be E-R units c) the rivet detail and the batten strips are at least as good as I've seen on any other resin model d) the nose contours appear correct In the way of compromise, I see: e) the back doors on the unit aren't recessed as they should be; It appears that because of the space needed inside the frame for the trucks that this was necessary f) the number of vent slats along the vents just below the roof line on the sides is too few. (by 2 or 3, i can count again if anyone really cares) g) a few wavy spots in the body. nothing that looks like it will be a real problem to deal with Lacking my calipers, micrometer and the other tools of a rivet counter (they're still packed up at my parents house) I can't comment on dimensional accuracy, but it does look good... In all, looks like it will be a worthy addition to my Pennsy diesel fleet. I'll be digging out my spare Athearn PA units so I can scrap one for a drive for this, so I can get to work on it. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Another Site Update Date: Tue, 8 Sep 98 12:34:56 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1739 As all of you no doubt have noticed, the lists and "Keystone Crossings" have been down for several days. My ISP had a failure early morning Friday which took several hours to repair. Unfortunately, it happened again Saturday...a holiday weekend when their staff was reduced. I had to leave town Saturday, so I contacted the ISP's answering service at 6 a.m. Their hours are 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. I returned Saturday nightat 10 p.m. to find that the connection was still down. Starting at first opening (9 a.m.) on Sunday, I began rattling some cages. Four calls, numerous runarounds, etc., later and I was still down! I'm a systems administrator and am on call 24 hours a day, why aren't they? Anyway, it wasn't until late morning today (Monday) that they finally replaced the components. In the mean time, I have signed a contract with a new ISP and will be changing shortly. That will entail a short, but planned and announced, blackout. It will happen in another week or so. Sorry for the downtime. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 00:29:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] allies & enemies Content-Length: 828 Don't forget trackage rights. For example the NYC owned a streak of rust in Ohio called the LEA&W (Lake Erie Alliance & Wheeling) which crossed the PRR's Cleveland & Pittsburg at Alliance and Minerva. Because of its heavy grades between the two towns the Central used the C&P for ore and coal trains while relegating the LEA&W to a local freight. At times the PRR provided snappers for the NYC moves. I am sure that there was reciprocity elsewhere. Jerry Finefrock. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 16:36:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Info on S-1 Content-Length: 1792 In a message dated 9/1/98 7:50:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HGordon552@aol.com writes: << New to group.Request the best source of information on the S-1.Photos at the 1939 worlds fair,etc.Also source for drawings of S-1 Thanks, Harold >> Welcome Harold. Here are some sources I was able to find: Drawings: page 66 of Alvin Stauffer's _Pennsylvania Railroad Steam and Electric Locomotive Diagrams_ . This is a little book, about 4 inches by 11 inches, with diagrams of PRR steam, electric, and diesel locomotives. I'm sure it must be out of print. The drawings are tracings of the official PRR diagrams, so they're not as detailed as the drawings in, say, _Model Railroader_ magazine. An outline drawing and photos appear in the 1941 _Locomotive Cyclopedia_, pages 242-243. Color Photo: page 185 of Don Ball's _The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s_. B&W photos: page 101 of Mike Shafer's and Brian Solomon's _Pennsylvania Railroad, Color History_. pages 127,128, and 143 of Paul Careleton's _Pennsy Steam: A Second Look_. pages 226-229 of Alvin Stauffer's _Pennsy Power I_. pages 110-111 of _Pennsy Power II_. pages 192-193 of _Pennsy Power III_. page 207 of Edwin Alexander's _The Pennsylvania Railroad, A Pictorial History_. pages 86-87 of Eric Hirsimaki's _Black Gold - Black Diamonds, The Pennsylvania Railroad and Dieselization, Volume I_. Hope this helps, John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 14:03:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] C&O hoppers in interchange service on PRR Content-Length: 1517 Rick, Tom, and others: Not to beat a dead horse, but knew I wasn't going crazy (hope my new wife doesn't see this or she would have a comment) ) . Right or wrong, Dave Morgan's Trains article: "The Mohawk that refused to abdicate, and other tales" carried following paragraph: "The coal that Pennsylvania moves up to Sandusky is interchange or off-line coal, mostly from C&O, L&N, N&W, and Virginian... (following referred to whether L&N or C&O hoppers rolled easier) On Pennsy of course, the stacks of two wide-open earth-shaking slogging and straining J1's made it difficult to run a fair test on the comparison as the black hoppers of Chessie followed the red ones of L&N up to Sandusky and the holds of the lake boats. " Philip Hastings photos accompanying had C&O and Virginian hoppers behind J1s (2-10-4) . Article appeared between 1954 and 1958 and was reprinted in the book which took its title from that chapter (the Mohawk, etc) and was published by Kalmbach. Wasn't there myself (darn), but the secondary source at least refers to C&O hoppers on the line during that time period. Regards, Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 03:20:50 EDT Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and Content-Length: 2334 In a message dated 9/5/98 9:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Prior to 1960, did Pennsy ever haul any Ore cars of the type that Walthers has produced to go along with its Ore Dock (see a review of the Ore Dock and Cars in the May 1998 issue of Model Railroading, page 14)? These Walthers Ore cars are being produced with the roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the Pennsy have ever hauled any of these type Ore cars to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank you for your anticipated response. >> Greg, Funny you should ask. Today I recieved a PRR Columbus Div. ETT No. 16 eff. 1:01 A.M. EST/12:01 a.m. CST April 29, 1951 I purchased on E-bay last week. On page 77 under the heading 1160 B-2 Other Equipment Restrictions is the following entry about DM&IR ore cars on the Panhandle: "Duluth, Miissabe & Iron Range Railway Company Class U-22 ore cars in Series 27,000 to 27,499 restricted as follows: "Maximum speed -- when loaded, 35 miles per hour. "Through Bridge 4.17, Marble Cliff -- 30 miles per hour. "Through Bridge 119.86, west of Newman -- 10 miles per hour." The identical wording is contained in the Western Region Columbus Division (Employee) Time Table No. 5, in effect 1:01 a.m.EST/12:01a.m.CST Sept. 29, 1953. In the Buckeye Region (Employee) Time Table No.9, in effect 1:01 a.m.EST/12:01 a.m. CST Sunday April 30, 1961, there was more extensive dioscussion on 93 including weight restriction instructions on handling coupled strings of loaded ore jennies. Marble Cliff was 4.0 miles west of Front Street (Columbus Union Terminal) on the Columbus Division's "Freight Line," the ex-Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central/Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh Rw Columbus-Chicago maionline. Newman was on the ex-CC&IC/CStL&P Richmond-Indianapolis mainline 0.2 miles west of the busy Richmond, Ind., depot. Hope this helps. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: locoshop@juno.com Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:46:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Steel mills Content-Length: 1003 Hello all, I am looking for information on past and modern day steel mills. I was wondering about current operations? Also past operations, specifically in the Southeast or around Mingo Junction area. I would love to obtain some information from those who know or model this type of action. Please e-mail me at locoshop@juno.com. Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] poppet valves From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 98 14:36:46 -0400 Content-Length: 2101 Kris, Poppet valves are the kind of "Inverted mushroom" shaped valves usually found in internal combustion engines. Steam engines usuall had piston valves, at least the superheated ones did. These slid back and forth to open and close the valve chambers at each end of the travel. They were directly pushed and pulled by the valve gear. The poppets would have been spring loaded and driven by a cam on a turning shaft; just the way they are in a car. Like the piston valves (and the slide valves before them) they were housed in the cylinder chest just above the cylinders. What sat atop the boiler were the POP valves. regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ========== Dumb question number 1,318. While reading Pennsy K-4s Remembered, the author made several mentions of experimental applications of oscillating and rotary poppet valves on the steam chests. What exactly are poppet valves? I assume they regulate the flow of steam into the cylinder. For some reason I thought they sat atop the locomotive boiler. Previous posts to the list have indicated you could hear the distinctive sound created by these valves on other types of PRR locomotives. What's so special about the way they sound? Kris Kollar aka. Poster Boy for the Steam Locomotive Knowledge Challenged Association - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:56:26 -0400 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: [PRR] Staple Bend Tunnel... Content-Length: 853 > And here's my question - is the old Portage RR Staple Bend tunnel >worth the hike in to see? Which end? And which is the best way in - from >Mineral Point or from Conemaugh? Thanks!! George, the tunnel is part of the allegheny portage rr nat'l historical park but is as yet extremely isolated. The NPS occasionally has guided hikes to it. You might call the park office at 814-886-6150 to inquire about hike schedules or the feasibility/wisdom of hiking in there yourself. -mike ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 15:07:41 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and Content-Length: 3877 Howdy all: In Pennsy Power III, on page 405, there are pictures of a class G39 and G38 ore cars. Unfortunately, the Walthers car does not look like either. FYI, I use the RoundHouse 26' low side ore car for my ore loads as an almost G38. They came in a 12 pack several years ago. They will not pass an SPF/rivet inspection. With some weight and a load they look nice and run well. cos Greg Leary wrote: > Tom, > > Thank you for your extremely helpful answer -- now to find some pictures. > Again, thank you. > > Sincerely, > > Greg Leary (electronically signed) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LINESWEST@aol.com [mailto:LINESWEST@aol.com] > > Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 3:21 AM > > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and > > enemies ruminat... > > > > > > In a message dated 9/5/98 9:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > greglear@bellsouth.net writes: > > > > << Prior to 1960, did Pennsy ever haul > > any Ore cars of the type that Walthers has produced to go along > > with its Ore > > Dock (see a review of the Ore Dock and Cars in the May 1998 > > issue of Model > > Railroading, page 14)? These Walthers Ore cars are being > > produced with the > > roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the > > Pennsy have > > ever hauled any of these type Ore cars > > to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank you for your > > anticipated response. >> > > > > Greg, > > > > Funny you should ask. Today I recieved a PRR Columbus Div. > > ETT No. 16 eff. > > 1:01 A.M. EST/12:01 a.m. CST April 29, 1951 I purchased on E-bay > > last week. On > > page 77 under the heading 1160 B-2 Other Equipment Restrictions is the > > following entry about DM&IR ore cars on the Panhandle: > > > > "Duluth, Miissabe & Iron Range Railway Company Class U-22 > > ore cars in Series > > 27,000 to 27,499 restricted as follows: > > > > "Maximum speed -- when loaded, 35 miles per hour. > > "Through Bridge 4.17, Marble Cliff -- 30 miles per hour. > > "Through Bridge 119.86, west of Newman -- 10 miles per hour." > > > > The identical wording is contained in the Western Region > > Columbus Division > > (Employee) Time Table No. 5, in effect 1:01 a.m.EST/12:01a.m.CST > > Sept. 29, > > 1953. > > In the Buckeye Region (Employee) Time Table No.9, in effect 1:01 > > a.m.EST/12:01 a.m. CST Sunday April 30, 1961, there was more extensive > > dioscussion on 93 including weight restriction instructions on handling > > coupled strings of loaded ore jennies. > > > > Marble Cliff was 4.0 miles west of Front Street (Columbus > > Union Terminal) on > > the Columbus Division's "Freight Line," the ex-Columbus, Chicago & Indiana > > Central/Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh Rw Columbus-Chicago maionline. > > Newman was on the ex-CC&IC/CStL&P Richmond-Indianapolis > > mainline 0.2 miles > > west of the busy Richmond, Ind., depot. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Tom V. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 06:00:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Content-Length: 1147 Hello PRR enthusiast; After a careful review of the 3 versions of R-50b Express Refrigerator pilot samples, I can now state that I am well pleased with them and they will be in the USA late October. Our builder has worked with us in all area of concern. I made it very clear to our builder, BOO-RIM by the way that the R-50b had been imported a few times previously by other importers with many errors and areas of concern as far as detail execution. We had a great amount of input from PRR people and we have corrected these concerns. While the name Rail Classics is new to you I have been importing PRR "HO" scale brass for many years with Railworks. I know that this project will be well received by the PRR enthusiast. EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS http://www.railclassics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 15:15:26 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Staple Bend Tunnel... Content-Length: 1698 Howdy All: Sorry George, I don't know about the Staple Bend Tunnel. But hopefully we can meet at the Fall Spectacular. Several LSOL chatters are going to converge on the EBT. Hopefully several from this list will attend also. I know it's the week after the big Altoona gathering, so I wasn't going to push it. Anyway, hope to see you there. cos George Pierson wrote: > Hi, all, > > On my way to the East Broad Top Fall Spectacular I hope to do some > railfanning on the PRR between Johnstown and Altoona. I've got some fairly > recent magazine articles on the part of the line as well as some good > maps. And here's my question - is the old Portage RR Staple Bend tunnel > worth the hike in to see? Which end? And which is the best way in - from > Mineral Point or from Conemaugh? Thanks!! > > PRR forever! > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Staple Bend Tunnel... Content-Length: 1984 George If I am not mistaken the Parks Service is offering guided tours of the tunnel. the most recent Railpace had an article covering this area and once I get home I will dig it out and post it up for you. Will On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, George Pierson wrote: > Hi, all, > > On my way to the East Broad Top Fall Spectacular I hope to do some > railfanning on the PRR between Johnstown and Altoona. I've got some fairly > recent magazine articles on the part of the line as well as some good > maps. And here's my question - is the old Portage RR Staple Bend tunnel > worth the hike in to see? Which end? And which is the best way in - from > Mineral Point or from Conemaugh? Thanks!! > > PRR forever! > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator Technical Support & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net - ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:22:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Allies and enemies Content-Length: 1137 JLC, As regards your inquiry about through (passenger) car interchanges with northwestern rr's, I'm afraid I can't think of a one. That's assuming we're talking about Milw, CB&Q-NP/GN. There were cars run through via C&NW-UP-SP, santa Fe and Q-D&RGW-WP (Cal Zephyr), not to mention St. Louis cars, but I'm not aware of any cars acturally bound for the Northwest. Perhaps I'm overlooking something and someone can enlighten me, too. But if a car had even run through the Twin Cities enroute to, say Seattle, I sure would have liked to have riden it! Barry Peltier P.S.-Just got a copy of Pennsy Vignettes from Clear Block from fellow prr- talker Randy Williamson, and this tape is wonderful. Lots of passenger shots and those great first generation diesels. Nice tape! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] active towers Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:51:48 -0400 Content-Length: 494 What interlocking towers are still operating on the Philly-Harrisburg portion of the "Main Line"??? Thanks. Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:51:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Allies and enemies Content-Length: 1282 In a message dated 98-09-08 13:34:32 EDT, Jcol268@aol.com writes: << How does the Reading fit in as a competitor? They had many lines and branches in SE PA and competed for the local commuter and other traffic.I didn't see >> The only real head-to-head competition was for the anthracite traffic and, early on, the Philadelphia-New York passenger business. Many years ago, the Reading had hourly Phila-Jersey City service, but the handwriting appeared on the wall as soon as Penn Station opened. There were only two places in the Phila area where direct competition for commuter traffic existed: the Norristown service, which the Reading "won" when PRR discontinued service beyond Manayunk(in 1961 I think), and the two Chestnut Hill stations. Other than in Chestnut Hill itself, the two branches were far enough apart that each drew its own riders, most of whom walked to the station. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:14:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Allies and enemies Content-Length: 902 In a message dated 9/8/98 12:34:14 PM Central Daylight Time, Jcol268@aol.com writes: << Did the PRR exchange have any passanger car exchanges/joint service with the Noerthwestern roads at chicago like the pooled-equipment Florida trains? >> If they did, it is news to me. Don't forget, PRR was pre-Space Needle and pre- Starbucks coffee and pre-Korean immigration, so Seattle was a lot smaller in those days. Same with Portland. Nice places even in those days, but East Coasters had more reason to go to LA and SF. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:48:27 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] for you francophones Content-Length: 601 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > http://www.mygale.org/00/thiriet/prr_indx.htm > > Just randomly happened upon this... > Yes, I especially like the pictures of "les célèbres GG1" -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 21:13:22 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] poppet valves Content-Length: 4112 Since I have not seen any other attempts, I'll put my two cents in, Kris. The valves on a steam engine work much the way the valves on your automobile work. They let the steam in then, let the steam out. The most basic type of valve motion was the slide or what could also be called the Stephenson valve gear. If you have any pictures of early locomotives, you can see that the valve chest (on top of the main driving piston) is flat. The eccentric arm (working in reverse of the main connecting rod) would "slide" a flat plate back and forth over the main cylinder head. The plate was machined in such a way that one portal lined up with the steam inlet (from the throttle) and when slid the other way - lined up with the draft box (smoke box). This is very basic description. "Most" steam locomotives valve gear worked in this fashion. The big difference between the major types, (Walchaert being the PRR standard) was the way they actuated the valves. Poppet valves or rotary cam valves work the same way, except they work off a cam that lifts (opens) a valve instead of having it slide. One of the major advantages to Poppet valves, they could open to their maximum area much faster than a slide valve could. Consequently, they could let the steam in faster and exhaust faster - more steam in = more power to the drivers (larger cylinders too). The PRR had a long history or playing with poppet valves. The culmination of poppet valve installation on the PRR was the T1. It is too bad (for the T1) that the diesel came along when it did. They had poor adhesion and the poppet valves where difficult to adjust and maintain. As originally built the the main component was on the inside of the frame - look for a picture of number 5500 (page 205 in Pennsy Power III) and you can see the eccentric arm on the outside of the locomotive. The thing that sits atop the boiler is the throttle. The throttle (valve) lets steam out of the boiler. The valve is usually located at the peek of the boiler (steam rises). The PRR dabbled in front end throttles. They had a higher efficiency than top mounted valves, due to there location in proximity to the cylinders. This is a very simplistic look at how a steam locomotive works - such things as feed water heaters, superheaters, stokers and other appliances all made up the way a steam engine functioned. I didn't even touch the reverse lever! Of course the biggest factor in a steam engines operation was the crew that made her go. Find some old Railroad Magazines and read the stories of engine crews. I hope this answered your questions - it was a bit long! cos kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > Dumb question number 1,318. > > While reading Pennsy K-4s Remembered, the author made several mentions of > experimental applications of oscillating and rotary poppet valves on the > steam chests. What exactly are poppet valves? I assume they regulate the > flow of steam into the cylinder. For some reason I thought they sat atop > the locomotive boiler. > > Previous posts to the list have indicated you could hear the distinctive > sound created by these valves on other types of PRR locomotives. What's so > special about the way they sound? > > Kris Kollar > aka. Poster Boy for the Steam Locomotive Knowledge Challenged Association > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:34:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Centennial History Content-Length: 614 But I just bought one thru ebay for $45, the third sold in $40-$50 range in last month. $100 is a bit pricey. A month ago I bought Schotter's 1927 PRR history for $41 and it''s 20 years older. If you can get a C note for it, more power to ya'. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:43:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] for you francophones Content-Length: 698 In a message dated 9/8/98 4:48:02 PM Central Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << http://www.mygale.org/00/thiriet/prr_indx.htm Just randomly happened upon this... >> My new wife is fluent in French and you can tell from my email address my interests--what a combination! Thanks for the post! Bob Zoeller Fox Point ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:09:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Allies and enemies Content-Length: 2044 In a message dated 9/8/98 1:34:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jcol268@aol.com writes: > How does the Reading fit in as a competitor? They had many lines and branches > in SE PA and competed for the local commuter and other traffic.I didn't see > them mentioned in any of the previous lists. In terms of trunk line freight, the Reading and the CNJ were long considered to be part of the B&O family. B&O ownership of their stock may have fluctuated, but they were absolutely crucial end-to-end connections or B&O to have access to the New York (and I suppose Philadelphia areas), especially for New York Harbor export traffic since various steamship lines didn't call on Baltimore. Without their cooperation, the B&O would have been a much smaller trunk line. The Reading certainly didn't deserve to get ignored, but consider the source: 1. The two of us making the most noise on the thread of allies, connections, etc. are both guilty of firmly gazing at the railroad world west of Pittsburgh if not Columbus OH (LINES WEST MANIA!). That's our location and our railfan focus. 2. Also, the historical literature on rail competition focuses on the New York-to-Chicago trunk lines, which leaves out a lot of good interesting railroads besides the Reading. And I'm sure I'm guilty of thinking like the historical lit, because I read so much of it in graduate school. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael R Weatherhead" Subject: [PRR] address Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:24:59 -0500 Content-Length: 599 I am trying to find the e-mail address for the freight car mail list. I think I had seen it on a mail from here, but with a swift delete key finger, I seem to have trashed it. Thank you in advance. Michael R Weatherhead Marion, OH ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: 1st year service for G38, G39 (was RE: Walthers' Ore Cars (was Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:57:19 -0400 Content-Length: 4930 Wayne, Thanks for the information. Any idea what the first year was that Pennsy started using the G38 and G39 ore cars? Thanks in advance! Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Wayne S. > Betty > Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 3:08 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and > enemies ruminat... > > > Howdy all: > In Pennsy Power III, on page 405, there are pictures of a class > G39 and G38 ore > cars. Unfortunately, the Walthers car does not look like either. > FYI, I use the RoundHouse 26' low side ore car for my ore loads > as an almost G38. > They came in a 12 pack several years ago. They will not pass an SPF/rivet > inspection. With some weight and a load they look nice and run well. > > cos > > Greg Leary wrote: > > > Tom, > > > > Thank you for your extremely helpful answer -- now to > find some pictures. > > Again, thank you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Greg Leary (electronically signed) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: LINESWEST@aol.com [mailto:LINESWEST@aol.com] > > > Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 3:21 AM > > > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > > > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and > > > enemies ruminat... > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 9/5/98 9:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > greglear@bellsouth.net writes: > > > > > > << Prior to 1960, did Pennsy ever haul > > > any Ore cars of the type that Walthers has produced to go along > > > with its Ore > > > Dock (see a review of the Ore Dock and Cars in the May 1998 > > > issue of Model > > > Railroading, page 14)? These Walthers Ore cars are being > > > produced with the > > > roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the > > > Pennsy have > > > ever hauled any of these type Ore cars > > > to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank > you for your > > > anticipated response. >> > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > Funny you should ask. Today I recieved a PRR Columbus Div. > > > ETT No. 16 eff. > > > 1:01 A.M. EST/12:01 a.m. CST April 29, 1951 I purchased on E-bay > > > last week. On > > > page 77 under the heading 1160 B-2 Other Equipment Restrictions is the > > > following entry about DM&IR ore cars on the Panhandle: > > > > > > "Duluth, Miissabe & Iron Range Railway Company Class U-22 > > > ore cars in Series > > > 27,000 to 27,499 restricted as follows: > > > > > > "Maximum speed -- when loaded, 35 miles per hour. > > > "Through Bridge 4.17, Marble Cliff -- 30 miles per hour. > > > "Through Bridge 119.86, west of Newman -- 10 miles per hour." > > > > > > The identical wording is contained in the Western Region > > > Columbus Division > > > (Employee) Time Table No. 5, in effect 1:01 a.m.EST/12:01a.m.CST > > > Sept. 29, > > > 1953. > > > In the Buckeye Region (Employee) Time Table No.9, in effect 1:01 > > > a.m.EST/12:01 a.m. CST Sunday April 30, 1961, there was more extensive > > > dioscussion on 93 including weight restriction instructions > on handling > > > coupled strings of loaded ore jennies. > > > > > > Marble Cliff was 4.0 miles west of Front Street (Columbus > > > Union Terminal) on > > > the Columbus Division's "Freight Line," the ex-Columbus, > Chicago & Indiana > > > Central/Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh Rw Columbus-Chicago maionline. > > > Newman was on the ex-CC&IC/CStL&P Richmond-Indianapolis > > > mainline 0.2 miles > > > west of the busy Richmond, Ind., depot. > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Tom V. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 04:56:02 -0400 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Allies and enemies Content-Length: 1260 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/8/98 12:34:14 PM Central Daylight Time, Jcol268@aol.com > writes: > > << Did the PRR exchange have any passanger car exchanges/joint service with > the > Noerthwestern roads at chicago like the pooled-equipment Florida trains? >> > > If they did, it is news to me. Don't forget, PRR was pre-Space Needle and pre- > Starbucks coffee and pre-Korean immigration, so Seattle was a lot smaller in > those days. Same with Portland. Nice places even in those days, but East > Coasters had more reason to go to LA and SF. > I seem to recall reading something about some PRR and other eastern road cars that made it as far as Glacier National Park on the Great Northern in the late 40's and early 50's. -D -- David Mikulec DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net The Nostalgia Trip Homepage http://www.users.mis.net/~shazada/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Sep 98 7:57:02 EDT From: Subject: Re: [PRR] poppet valves Content-Length: 4779 Thanks for the detailed response. It took considerable time to type your comments and I hope it helped not only me understand but others as well. Regards, Kris ------------- Original Text From: Wayne S. Betty , on 9/8/98 9:13 PM: Since I have not seen any other attempts, I'll put my two cents in, Kris. The valves on a steam engine work much the way the valves on your automobile work. They let the steam in then, let the steam out. The most basic type of valve motion was the slide or what could also be called the Stephenson valve gear. If you have any pictures of early locomotives, you can see that the valve chest (on top of the main driving piston) is flat. The eccentric arm (working in reverse of the main connecting rod) would "slide" a flat plate back and forth over the main cylinder head. The plate was machined in such a way that one portal lined up with the steam inlet (from the throttle) and when slid the other way - lined up with the draft box (smoke box). This is very basic description. "Most" steam locomotives valve gear worked in this fashion. The big difference between the major types, (Walchaert being the PRR standard) was the way they actuated the valves. Poppet valves or rotary cam valves work the same way, except they work off a cam that lifts (opens) a valve instead of having it slide. One of the major advantages to Poppet valves, they could open to their maximum area much faster than a slide valve could. Consequently, they could let the steam in faster and exhaust faster - more steam in = more power to the drivers (larger cylinders too). The PRR had a long history or playing with poppet valves. The culmination of poppet valve installation on the PRR was the T1. It is too bad (for the T1) that the diesel came along when it did. They had poor adhesion and the poppet valves where difficult to adjust and maintain. As originally built the the main component was on the inside of the frame - look for a picture of number 5500 (page 205 in Pennsy Power III) and you can see the eccentric arm on the outside of the locomotive. The thing that sits atop the boiler is the throttle. The throttle (valve) lets steam out of the boiler. The valve is usually located at the peek of the boiler (steam rises). The PRR dabbled in front end throttles. They had a higher efficiency than top mounted valves, due to there location in proximity to the cylinders. This is a very simplistic look at how a steam locomotive works - such things as feed water heaters, superheaters, stokers and other appliances all made up the way a steam engine functioned. I didn't even touch the reverse lever! Of course the biggest factor in a steam engines operation was the crew that made her go. Find some old Railroad Magazines and read the stories of engine crews. I hope this answered your questions - it was a bit long! cos kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > Dumb question number 1,318. > > While reading Pennsy K-4s Remembered, the author made several mentions of > experimental applications of oscillating and rotary poppet valves on the > steam chests. What exactly are poppet valves? I assume they regulate the > flow of steam into the cylinder. For some reason I thought they sat atop > the locomotive boiler. > > Previous posts to the list have indicated you could hear the distinctive > sound created by these valves on other types of PRR locomotives. What's so > special about the way they sound? > > Kris Kollar > aka. Poster Boy for the Steam Locomotive Knowledge Challenged Association > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:44:43 +0000 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Allies and enemies Content-Length: 1869 Tom Mahon wrote: > > > In a message dated 98-09-08 13:34:32 EDT, Jcol268@aol.com writes: > > > > << How does the Reading fit in as a competitor? They had many lines and > > branches > > in SE PA and competed for the local commuter and other traffic.I didn't see > > >> > Good Morning, Have been following this thread, and as an ex-pat S.Jersian (Mt. Ephraim) want to remind subscribers that there was fierce competition between the Reading and PRR for Jersey shore passenger traffic to Atlantic City. It apparently was so fierce that the NJPUC (sic) forced a merger in the early 30's (1932?, at work, refs at home) to insure "reliable" service. The combined Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Line (PRSL) then operated the service. There was also some competition with the Jersey Central with the "Nellie Bly, " but not to the level evinced by the dueling loco's and timetables of the Reading and PRR. They had separate routes that paralleled each and met briefly at Winslow Junction. There are many photos of Reading and PRR steam and deisel power on the shore (Beach here in New Hampshire) runs. Mostly units working out the last of their revenue service before scrapping. There are at least a half dozen books out on this, two hard covers on the PRSL and one on the Atlantic City line of Reading and three softcover on rail ops in South Jersey and the shore by the RHS. It's great to get away from the prototype construction discussions for a while. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:31:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Bridge limit - New Cumberland Content-Length: 591 Jerry (& others), you may be interested about a very specific bridge limit mentioned in freight train schedule PG-11. See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/pg11_1960.html and read under Morrisville. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] NW Conection (was:Re Allies and enemies) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 98 09:54:59 -0400 Content-Length: 2095 If you are looking for an excuse to run GN and NP sleepers on your PRR trains, These cars were regularly leased to the SAL and ACL for NYC-Florida service during the winter months. They were not needed then by their owners. If you think NY-Seattle market was light in the summer, imagine January in Montana ;-) I've built and painted an ECW GN 7-4-3-1 (BAD AXE RIVER) for service on the Silver Meteor. regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ========== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/8/98 12:34:14 PM Central Daylight Time, Jcol268@aol.com > writes: > > << Did the PRR exchange have any passenger car exchanges/joint service with > the > Noerthwestern roads at chicago like the pooled-equipment Florida trains? >> > > If they did, it is news to me. Don't forget, PRR was pre-Space Needle and pre- > Starbucks coffee and pre-Korean immigration, so Seattle was a lot smaller in > those days. Same with Portland. Nice places even in those days, but East > Coasters had more reason to go to LA and SF. > I seem to recall reading something about some PRR and other eastern road cars that made it as far as Glacier National Park on the Great Northern in the late 40's and early 50's. - -D - -- David Mikulec DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net The Nostalgia Trip Homepage http://www.users.mis.net/~shazada/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 9:02:36 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: fwd: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in inte... Content-Length: 1082 Date: 09/09/1998 08:58 am (Wednesday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: fwd: [PRR] PRR allies and enemies (was: C&O hoppers in inte... -Reply >>> Kris Kollar at PRR-Talk@dsop.com 09/03/98 09:30am wrote, in part >>> And now for a humbling omission. I don't have a very clear idea of how the cars are delivered & tracked from point A to point Q and then back to point A again. For this and other basics about railroading I recommend John H. Armstrong's book _The Railroad, What It Is, What It Does_ published by Simmons-Boardman Books, 402-346-4300. I believe the latest edition is the third, last printed in 1995. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Sep 98 10:12:19 EDT From: Subject: [PRR] PRR structures Content-Length: 697 I've seen numerous books on motive power & rolling stock but does any one know of a book/publication that deals more with the structures of the PRR. Something that would outline what typical small town stations would look like. Standard building practices for stations, out buildings, service facilities, etc. Thanks, Kris ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:13:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] C&O hoppers in interchange service on PRR Content-Length: 855 In a message dated 9/8/98 8:54:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Philip Hastings photos accompanying had C&O and Virginian hoppers behind J1s (2-10-4) . Article appeared between 1954 and 1958 and was reprinted in the book which took its title from that chapter (the Mohawk, etc) and was published by Kalmbach. >> Bob Z., I surrender. I had foprgotten that the kitty had eaten the capitol dome aaaand had been a independent line on its own account. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:18:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: C&O coal traffic on the PRR, or "Bob Z. nailed us" Content-Length: 1006 In a message dated 9/8/98 10:09:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << Now while I might occasionally argue technical points offered by vintage railfan authors like Lucius Beebe, I do know better than to try to argue with either David P. Morgan or Dr. Philip Hastings. The Titans have spoken -- us mortals can confess our sins and run for cover. The Pennsy carried C&O coal! Now if it only came to Xenia (fat chance), >> Quite right, Rick. The C&O coal most likely followed the Scioto River north from Portsmouth to an interchange through Grogan, Miami or the C&O yards in Columbus. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:22:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Centennial History Content-Length: 822 In a message dated 9/9/98 7:15:31 AM Central Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << But I just bought one thru ebay for $45, the third sold in $40-$50 range in last month. $100 is a bit pricey. A month ago I bought Schotter's 1927 PRR history for $41 and it''s 20 years older. If you can get a C note for it, more power to ya'. >> Tom's right about the going rate, at least out here in the great Midwest.. A very available book. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:31:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: NW Conection (was:Re Allies and enemies) Content-Length: 671 In a message dated 9/9/98 8:56:51 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << If you are looking for an excuse to run GN and NP sleepers on your PRR trains, >> Although it wasn't run-through, the South Wind did lease the NP dome for Chicago-Florida as well in the 60's.. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:12:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] address Content-Length: 530 To subscrube to the freight car list send request to richard@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu To post to the list sned to freightcars@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:48:36 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] N&DMRS website ....questions & info Content-Length: 1414 I have posted a track plan on our web site of the proposed branch terminus on my Franklinsburg layout. Any response to the questions I have listed will be much appreciated. Also on this page is a still unresolved Bachmann Pullman question and news of developments of other HO layouts under construction. URL is: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/update.htm Also, if anyone is interested in signal operating units which reflect the slow operation of prototype semaphores then have a look at our info on: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/mem_wire.htm These units use shape memory wire and have proved very effective. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the NEW & BIGGER Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts and details of our exhibitions, fun stuff, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 98 16:11:47 CST Subject: [PRR] Western NY & PA book... Content-Length: 703 Hi, all, I had a conversation with the owner of Old & Weary Car Shop recently and he told me that the book is being written by Paul Pietrak and is expected to be ready by this spring. Will keep you posted. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:54:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Centennial History Content-Length: 890 In a message dated 98-09-09 14:33:57 EDT, you write: > << But I just bought one thru ebay for $45, the third sold in $40-$50 range > in > last month. $100 is a bit pricey. A month ago I bought Schotter's 1927 PRR > history for $41 and it''s 20 years older. > If you can get a C note for it, more power to ya'. >> > > Tom's right about the going rate, at least out here in the great Midwest.. A > very available book. That's about right, I bought mine for about $45 a couple of months ago on eBay. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:30:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] for you francophones Content-Length: 616 On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > http://www.mygale.org/00/thiriet/prr_indx.htm > > Just randomly happened upon this... C'est un bon site, mais il lui faut quelques petites corrections ... -- Mar[c] D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HGordon552@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:05:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] S-1,T-1M-1 models,etc. Content-Length: 708 I am interested in opinions from fellow members of the following models; 1.The fine arts model gauge one T-1 2.The fine arts model gauge one M-1 3.The old run Sunset models O gauge S-1 4.The not released Sunset models O gauge S-1 5.The fine arts model gauge one N-5,N-5c cabooses 6.Other PRR/loewy design models any gauge Thanks' Harold Gordon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:39:05 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: 1st year service for G38, G39 (was RE: Walthers' Ore Cars Content-Length: 5817 Howdy Greg: Unfortunately all my Official Guides are packed away in anticipation of our move (the 26th) If you can wait awhile, I can do the research. Or maybe someone else on the list has the information. Sorry for now - cos Greg Leary wrote: > Wayne, > > Thanks for the information. Any idea what the first year was that Pennsy > started using the G38 and G39 ore cars? Thanks in advance! > > Sincerely, > > Greg Leary (electronically signed) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Wayne S. > > Betty > > Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 3:08 PM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and > > enemies ruminat... > > > > > > Howdy all: > > In Pennsy Power III, on page 405, there are pictures of a class > > G39 and G38 ore > > cars. Unfortunately, the Walthers car does not look like either. > > FYI, I use the RoundHouse 26' low side ore car for my ore loads > > as an almost G38. > > They came in a 12 pack several years ago. They will not pass an SPF/rivet > > inspection. With some weight and a load they look nice and run well. > > > > cos > > > > Greg Leary wrote: > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > Thank you for your extremely helpful answer -- now to > > find some pictures. > > > Again, thank you. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Greg Leary (electronically signed) > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: LINESWEST@aol.com [mailto:LINESWEST@aol.com] > > > > Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 3:21 AM > > > > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > > > > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > > > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and > > > > enemies ruminat... > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 9/5/98 9:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > greglear@bellsouth.net writes: > > > > > > > > << Prior to 1960, did Pennsy ever haul > > > > any Ore cars of the type that Walthers has produced to go along > > > > with its Ore > > > > Dock (see a review of the Ore Dock and Cars in the May 1998 > > > > issue of Model > > > > Railroading, page 14)? These Walthers Ore cars are being > > > > produced with the > > > > roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the > > > > Pennsy have > > > > ever hauled any of these type Ore cars > > > > to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank > > you for your > > > > anticipated response. >> > > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > > > Funny you should ask. Today I recieved a PRR Columbus Div. > > > > ETT No. 16 eff. > > > > 1:01 A.M. EST/12:01 a.m. CST April 29, 1951 I purchased on E-bay > > > > last week. On > > > > page 77 under the heading 1160 B-2 Other Equipment Restrictions is the > > > > following entry about DM&IR ore cars on the Panhandle: > > > > > > > > "Duluth, Miissabe & Iron Range Railway Company Class U-22 > > > > ore cars in Series > > > > 27,000 to 27,499 restricted as follows: > > > > > > > > "Maximum speed -- when loaded, 35 miles per hour. > > > > "Through Bridge 4.17, Marble Cliff -- 30 miles per hour. > > > > "Through Bridge 119.86, west of Newman -- 10 miles per hour." > > > > > > > > The identical wording is contained in the Western Region > > > > Columbus Division > > > > (Employee) Time Table No. 5, in effect 1:01 a.m.EST/12:01a.m.CST > > > > Sept. 29, > > > > 1953. > > > > In the Buckeye Region (Employee) Time Table No.9, in effect 1:01 > > > > a.m.EST/12:01 a.m. CST Sunday April 30, 1961, there was more extensive > > > > dioscussion on 93 including weight restriction instructions > > on handling > > > > coupled strings of loaded ore jennies. > > > > > > > > Marble Cliff was 4.0 miles west of Front Street (Columbus > > > > Union Terminal) on > > > > the Columbus Division's "Freight Line," the ex-Columbus, > > Chicago & Indiana > > > > Central/Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh Rw Columbus-Chicago maionline. > > > > Newman was on the ex-CC&IC/CStL&P Richmond-Indianapolis > > > > mainline 0.2 miles > > > > west of the busy Richmond, Ind., depot. > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > Tom V. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:51:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: 1st year service for G38, G39 (was RE: Walthers' Ore Content-Length: 560 The 1st year for G38 was 1961 & for G39 was 1962. The Cincinnati Division Modelers gave an excellent presentation complete with handout at the PRRT&HS convention. regards, Dennis Sautters, Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:56:54 -0400 Content-Length: 1719 Kris, If you can find a copy, a book called 57 Plans Maintenance of Way for the Pennsylvania Railroad has a lot of what you are looking for. It was published by Boynton & Associates in 1967. Probably out of print for quite a while now. It has PRR drawings for things like passenger shelters, station platform lamps, signs, water towers etc. A great source of plans in my opinion, although no real large structures. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 2:58 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR structures >I've seen numerous books on motive power & rolling stock but does any one >know of a book/publication that deals more with the structures of the PRR. >Something that would outline what typical small town stations would look >like. Standard building practices for stations, out buildings, service >facilities, etc. > >Thanks, > >Kris > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:03:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Greg Johnson Content-Length: 456 Sorry to have to send this to the list, but will Greg contact me, I lost you E-Mail address. Todd ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:09:40 -0400 Content-Length: 2641 The book was originally published by The Builders Compendium. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: jbreon To: kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures >Kris, > If you can find a copy, a book called 57 Plans Maintenance of Way for >the Pennsylvania Railroad has a lot of what you are looking for. It was >published by Boynton & Associates in 1967. Probably out of print for quite a >while now. It has PRR drawings for things like passenger shelters, station >platform lamps, signs, water towers etc. A great source of plans in my >opinion, although no real large structures. >Jerry Breon >-----Original Message----- >From: kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Date: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 2:58 PM >Subject: [PRR] PRR structures > > >>I've seen numerous books on motive power & rolling stock but does any one >>know of a book/publication that deals more with the structures of the PRR. >>Something that would outline what typical small town stations would look >>like. Standard building practices for stations, out buildings, service >>facilities, etc. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Kris >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: 1st year service for G38, G39 (was RE: Walthers' Ore Cars Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:21:45 -0400 Content-Length: 7154 Wayne, Thank you for your email -- I appreciate your willingness to answer my email after your move. Please note that Dennis Sautters provided the following answer: The 1st year for G38 was 1961 & for G39 was 1962. Again, thanks for your email and thanks to Dennis. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Wayne S. > Betty > Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 6:39 PM > To: Greg Leary > Cc: PRR - Talk Group > Subject: Re: 1st year service for G38, G39 (was RE: Walthers' Ore Cars > (was RE: [PRR] (long) > > > Howdy Greg: > Unfortunately all my Official Guides are packed away in > anticipation of our > move (the 26th) If you can wait awhile, I can do the > research. Or maybe > someone else on the list has the information. > > Sorry for now - > > cos > > Greg Leary wrote: > > > Wayne, > > > > Thanks for the information. Any idea what the first > year was that Pennsy > > started using the G38 and G39 ore cars? Thanks in advance! > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Greg Leary (electronically signed) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf > Of Wayne S. > > > Betty > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 3:08 PM > > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and > > > enemies ruminat... > > > > > > > > > Howdy all: > > > In Pennsy Power III, on page 405, there are pictures of a class > > > G39 and G38 ore > > > cars. Unfortunately, the Walthers car does not look like either. > > > FYI, I use the RoundHouse 26' low side ore car for my ore loads > > > as an almost G38. > > > They came in a 12 pack several years ago. They will not pass > an SPF/rivet > > > inspection. With some weight and a load they look nice and run well. > > > > > > cos > > > > > > Greg Leary wrote: > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > > > Thank you for your extremely helpful answer -- now to > > > find some pictures. > > > > Again, thank you. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Greg Leary (electronically signed) > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: LINESWEST@aol.com [mailto:LINESWEST@aol.com] > > > > > Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 3:21 AM > > > > > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > > > > > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > > > > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR > allies and > > > > > enemies ruminat... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 9/5/98 9:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > > greglear@bellsouth.net writes: > > > > > > > > > > << Prior to 1960, did Pennsy ever haul > > > > > any Ore cars of the type that Walthers has produced to go along > > > > > with its Ore > > > > > Dock (see a review of the Ore Dock and Cars in the May 1998 > > > > > issue of Model > > > > > Railroading, page 14)? These Walthers Ore cars are being > > > > > produced with the > > > > > roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the > > > > > Pennsy have > > > > > ever hauled any of these type Ore cars > > > > > to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank > > > you for your > > > > > anticipated response. >> > > > > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > > > > > Funny you should ask. Today I recieved a PRR Columbus Div. > > > > > ETT No. 16 eff. > > > > > 1:01 A.M. EST/12:01 a.m. CST April 29, 1951 I purchased on E-bay > > > > > last week. On > > > > > page 77 under the heading 1160 B-2 Other Equipment > Restrictions is the > > > > > following entry about DM&IR ore cars on the Panhandle: > > > > > > > > > > "Duluth, Miissabe & Iron Range Railway Company Class U-22 > > > > > ore cars in Series > > > > > 27,000 to 27,499 restricted as follows: > > > > > > > > > > "Maximum speed -- when loaded, 35 miles per hour. > > > > > "Through Bridge 4.17, Marble Cliff -- 30 miles per hour. > > > > > "Through Bridge 119.86, west of Newman -- 10 miles > per hour." > > > > > > > > > > The identical wording is contained in the Western Region > > > > > Columbus Division > > > > > (Employee) Time Table No. 5, in effect 1:01 a.m.EST/12:01a.m.CST > > > > > Sept. 29, > > > > > 1953. > > > > > In the Buckeye Region (Employee) Time Table No.9, > in effect 1:01 > > > > > a.m.EST/12:01 a.m. CST Sunday April 30, 1961, there was > more extensive > > > > > dioscussion on 93 including weight restriction instructions > > > on handling > > > > > coupled strings of loaded ore jennies. > > > > > > > > > > Marble Cliff was 4.0 miles west of Front Street (Columbus > > > > > Union Terminal) on > > > > > the Columbus Division's "Freight Line," the ex-Columbus, > > > Chicago & Indiana > > > > > Central/Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh Rw > Columbus-Chicago maionline. > > > > > Newman was on the ex-CC&IC/CStL&P Richmond-Indianapolis > > > > > mainline 0.2 miles > > > > > west of the busy Richmond, Ind., depot. > > > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > > > Tom V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 23:20:37 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/08/98 Content-Length: 1053 Kris Kollar wrote: Subject: poppet valves ................... While reading Pennsy K-4s Remembered, the author made several mentions of experimental applications of oscillating and rotary poppet valves on the steam chests. What exactly are poppet valves? ............... Kris, A very good book which describes all the many details of steam locomotives, in simple terms, with very good line drawings of the various parts, is _The Steam Locomotive in America_, by Alfred W. Bruce, published in 1952 by Bonanza Books. It runs over 400 pages but is easy reading. Copies occasionally turn up. If you can find one it is an excellent source of information. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: [PRR] RE: 1st year service for G38, G39 (was RE: Walthers' Ore Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:41:50 -0400 Content-Length: 1099 Dennis, Thanks for the answer. Since my cutoff year is 1959, I'll have to look at obtaining other Ore Jenny cars (DT&I) that would be appropriate for Pennsy prior to 1959. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 6:51 PM > To: greglear@bellsouth.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; wsbcos@cris.com > Subject: Re: 1st year service for G38, G39 (was RE: Walthers' Ore Cars > (wasRE: [PRR] > > > The 1st year for G38 was 1961 & for G39 was 1962. > The Cincinnati Division Modelers gave an excellent presentation > complete with handout at the PRRT&HS convention. > regards, > Dennis Sautters, Lines West > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:48:41 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] More Virginia PRRish connections Content-Length: 1885 Hi You All... While returning some books to the local library here i happened to look at the book "Tidewater Triangle" by Yanosey.Here are a couple things i noticed....In the book there is some photos of the OLD Norfolk Southern. In one picture there were two very PRRish looking cabin cars..Looked like some second had PRR N-5 cars...about the same except that there were no crash posts and the steps were more like those on the other NS cabooses. Another picture showed the Seaboard station in Richmond (Union)? Anyway it showed a picture of a Southbound Silver Star or Silver Meteor. Just behind the Seaboard E units were five Pennsy X-29 box-express cars...In another part of the book was a shot of the PRR Baldwin switcher that was used in Norfolk on the beachhead end of the Delmarva line..A S-12 i think. Also the same picture of the crane and tender used in the PRR color guide book. There also were some shots of the later successor Virginia and Maryland and Eastern Shore RR operations... There is also a shot or two of a C & O carfloat that was either a former PRR float or was later sold to the PRR. Well i'm gonna go for now...just letting you all know about some of the stuff i find... Til Later Hank Mummert P.S. The library also has a book on the R.F.&P. It had some shots of Potomac yard with some of the P-5 and GG-1 engines in the yard. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:11:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: 1st year service for G38, G39 (was RE: Walthers' Ore Content-Length: 837 In a message dated 9/9/98 10:10:53 AM Central Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << Thanks for the information. Any idea what the first year was that Pennsy started using the G38 and G39 ore cars? Thanks in advance! >> Approximate dates as best I can piece together from Sept 82 Keystone (some typos I think on dates in that article): G38 1000 cars February 1960 (article said 1970) G39 1000 cars May 1961 G39A 1000 cars October 1964 Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:12:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures Content-Length: 763 In a message dated 9/9/98 9:45:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jbreon@email.msn.com writes: << f you can find a copy, a book called 57 Plans Maintenance of Way for the Pennsylvania Railroad has a lot of what you are looking for. It was published by Boynton & Associates in 1967. >> There were at least four editions. Mine is a fourth edition dated 1971. Expect to pay $25-$30 for a copy. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:13:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: 1st year service for G38, G39 Content-Length: 667 Mainline Modeler had a construction series on the G39 during the summer of 1993. I started 10 but stopped building them because I didn't think they'd be found on the Panhandle. Because of this thread I guess they'll get done if Dr. Parkinson allows. If I get around to it I'll look up the issues. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:29:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures Content-Length: 898 In a message dated 9/9/98 8:43:57 PM Central Daylight Time, jbreon@email.msn.com writes: << If you can find a copy, a book called 57 Plans Maintenance of Way for the Pennsylvania Railroad has a lot of what you are looking for. It was published by Boynton & Associates in 1967. Probably out of print for quite a while now. >> True on all accounts. I asked about this on the list about a month ago. Got two responses and bought one. Perhaps the person whose book I didn't buy could post Kris as to availability. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:09:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] C&O coal traffic on the PRR, or "Bob Z. nailed us" Content-Length: 4219 In a message dated 9/8/98 1:34:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jcol268@aol.com writes: > The 40 C&O 2-10-4s > were designed specifically to handle coal drags, unassisted across Ohio > exept > for pushers accross the Ohio River bridge and at Columbus and did so for > about > 12 years before the PRR bought the blueprints during WWII. This should > support > the idea that the C&O would have carried most of the traffic on home rail. > > JLC, SPF And too many of us were sure that "most" in the above line was "absolutely all", at least in terms of whole-train movements of coal. Of course, in railroading, if you say never, you're just asking for trouble. Not long ago in this thread, Pennsy fan Bob Zoeller, who was sure he'd seen something about C&O coal trains on the Pennsy, cited Green Frog's "Pennsylvania Railroad" tape, which features action at Marion Ohio (good stuff, too), including long strings of northbound C&O hopper loads. I pointed out to Bob that I was pretty sure the C&O action on that tape is on C&O's own double track mainline. This C&O line traverses Ohio south to north, passing through Columbus and Marion on the way to Toledo. At Marion, the C&O main parallels the PRR double track Sandusky Branch through town, and these two railroads crossed the joint NYC/EL at opposite ends of Marion Union Station. Bob didn't let a little setback like somebody else's facts discourage him. Now, on 9-6-98, Bob fires another salvo: Rick, Tom, and others: Not to beat a dead horse, but knew I wasn't going crazy (hope my new wife doesn't see this or she would have a comment) ) . Right or wrong, Dave Morgan's Trains article: "The Mohawk that refused to abdicate, and other tales" carried following paragraph: "The coal that Pennsylvania moves up to Sandusky is interchange or off-line coal, mostly from C&O, L&N, N&W, and Virginian... (following referred to whether L&N or C&O hoppers rolled easier) On Pennsy of course, the stacks of two wide-open earth-shaking slogging and straining J1's made it difficult to run a fair test on the comparison as the black hoppers of Chessie followed the red ones of L&N up to Sandusky and the holds of the lake boats. " Philip Hastings photos accompanying had C&O and Virginian hoppers behind J1s (2-10-4) . Article appeared between 1954 and 1958 and was reprinted in the book which took its title from that chapter (the Mohawk, etc) and was published by Kalmbach. Wasn't there myself (darn), but the secondary source at least refers to C&O hoppers on the line during that time period. Regards, Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI I don't have the original Trains articles, but I hauled out my much-beloved copy of "The Mohawk That Refused to Abdicate" and... sure enough, among Phil Hasting's great pics of J-1's (worth the journey in itself), we have a picture of a J-1 towing a string of C&O hoppers out of Grogan Yard and heading for the lake. As a bonus, there's another pic of a J-1 northbound at the head of a string of those antique 100-ton Virginian 6-axle coal gons; I can even hallucinate the location of the elevated track shown in this shot, as I used to hike along there while an undergraduate at Ohio State. Now while I might occasionally argue technical points offered by vintage railfan authors like Lucius Beebe, I do know better than to try to argue with either David P. Morgan or Dr. Philip Hastings. The Titans have spoken -- us mortals can confess our sins and run for cover. The Pennsy carried C&O coal! Now if it only came to Xenia (fat chance), Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations Date: Thu, 10 Sep 98 06:27:12 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1302 While entering consists into my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" (I'm up to Train 29, numerical order, odd first) I've come across a few entries I am seeking further meaning on. Many normal entries for head end equipment are as follows: Express R-50 Express X-29 Express B-60 MS-60 etc. However, there are some like these: MS-60 (Open) Express B-60 (Mess.) Gold Star Express B-60 (Mess.) Express B-60 Gold Star MS-60 (X) Anyone know what "(Open)" signifies? What about "(Mess.)"? What about "Gold Star"? What about "(X)", which doesn't connect to a footnote on the page, or pertain to the car class? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:05:25 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] N&DMRS website ....questions & info Content-Length: 2113 ---"John H. Wright" wrote: > Any response to the questions I > have listed will be much appreciated. Regarding question 4: No, no signals of any sort on the railroad. In the US, at road/railroad crossings the trains have the right of way, pedestrians and road vehicles are obliged to stay out of the way. This is related to old rules of the road by which a loaded wagon has right of way over an unloaded wagon, and a wagon descending a hill has rights over a wagon ascending. The principle is that the vehicle more easily stopped is obliged to make way for the less easily stopped one. The watchman would have a duty to go out into the roadway and signal road traffic to stop, using a red flag by day, or red and white lanterns by night (red and white as red alone might be taken by the train crew as a stop signal intended for them.) OR The watchman might operate crossing gates. These would be very unlike the gates at UK level crossings. If you are familiar with US crossing gates there is no point in my repeating what you know. If not, ask and I or someone shall describe. In the 1940's, many crossings were unmanned, protected either by automatic flashing light signals or automatic gates. However, there were crossing watchmen here and there. Blairsville, PA on the Conemaugh Division, had one such. As I recall, the railroad rebuilt the shanty in the 1950's using concrete block and brick, producing an edifice which remains (although unused) to this day. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:35:04 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations Content-Length: 1153 ---Jerry wrote: > However, there are some like these: > MS-60 (Open) > Express B-60 (Mess.) Gold Star > Express B-60 (Mess.) > Express B-60 Gold Star > MS-60 (X) > What about "(Mess.)"? My guess: Messenger. That is, the car has accommodations for an attendant. Maybe even an attendant in attendance. > > What about "Gold Star"? > Now I'm puzzled. Express cars equipped for a messenger were identified by a star under (or was it above?) the car number. But "Gold Star"? Je ne sais quoi. (Take that, Mark!) === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations Date: Thu, 10 Sep 98 08:30:34 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1356 On 9/10/98 7:35 AM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: >Now I'm puzzled. Express cars equipped for a >messenger were identified by a star under (or was it >above?) the car number. But "Gold Star"? Je ne sais >quoi. (Take that, Mark!) Isn't it "je ne sais pas"? Two years of "D" French 20 years ago and I can remember "I don't know"!!! Bruce Andrews offered the following in a direct mail to me: (snip) > What about "(Mess.)"? Some cars had accomodations (toilet,etc.) for a "messanger" or baggage man. > What about "Gold Star"? Same as above. A gold star over the numbers was used to mark cars so equiped. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 98 08:42:11 -0400 Content-Length: 2350 Jerry, I can answer some of these. MS-60: A B-60 assigned to mail storage Open: Mail storage cars were usually sealed. "Open" indicates that this car was not sealed; probably to allow for the addition or deletion of mail enroute. Mess (and Gold Star): Many B-60s were equipped for a messenger to accompany the baggage or shipment. These cars had a desk, a safe, and a toilet. They were identified on the outside by a gold star on the car's center line, half way up from the belt rail to the letterboard. X : Is (appropriately enough) a mystery to me. regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ============= While entering consists into my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" (I'm up to Train 29, numerical order, odd first) I've come across a few entries I am seeking further meaning on. Many normal entries for head end equipment are as follows: Express R-50 Express X-29 Express B-60 MS-60 etc. However, there are some like these: MS-60 (Open) Express B-60 (Mess.) Gold Star Express B-60 (Mess.) Express B-60 Gold Star MS-60 (X) Anyone know what "(Open)" signifies? What about "(Mess.)"? What about "Gold Star"? What about "(X)", which doesn't connect to a footnote on the page, or pertain to the car class? - ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com - ----------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:45:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations >> However, there are some like these: >> MS-60 (Open) >> Express B-60 (Mess.) Gold Star >> Express B-60 (Mess.) >> Express B-60 Gold Star >> MS-60 (X) >> What about "(Mess.)"? > >My guess: > >Messenger. That is, the car has accommodations for an >attendant. Maybe even an attendant in attendance. > >> >> What about "Gold Star"? >> > >Now I'm puzzled. Express cars equipped for a >messenger were identified by a star under (or was it >above?) the car number. But "Gold Star"? Je ne sais >quoi. (Take that, Mark!) The gold star was above the car number, and was only used form the mid 50's on. Thus, cars repainted after that would have the star, while cars still awaiting repainting would not have the star. Is "MS" class "Mail Service"? I think these would be B60 cars used exclusively for handling mail for the post ofice. Now as to the "X" vs "open", je ne sais crois!(ie. I haven't the foggiest) Au revoir mes amis Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:01:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations In a message dated 9/10/98 6:00:43 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Anyone know what "(Open)" signifies?>> I am inferring a little here, but I always assumed MS60 (open) meant that it was probably coupled to a working RPO car and being worked in and out, or was just not sealed and station handlers could open and throw on bagged mail on board at stops. Will reread the great article in Keystone a few years ago on mail. <> I am sure someone else may know the distinction, but I always thought Messenger and Gold Star were essentially the same: a car with provisions for an employee on board (toilet, stove) so it could be worked en route. The gold star was on the car side to so indicate. <> Yeah. Couldn't find that footnote either. Almost sure it means " as needed". Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:53:39 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] A moment in history for you Francophones A member of the English banking firm which handled PRR bond sales in the UK was visiting Paris. He stopped in a restaurant for lunch. When his soup was served, he observed a fly in the soup. Summoning the waiter, he pointed to the the soup and said, "Garcon, regardez-vous le mouche." Waiter, looking at the soup: "Mais non monsieur. La mouche." Looking again at the fly: "I say, you have phenomenal eyesight." === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:05:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations In a message dated 9/10/98 8:00:18 AM Central Daylight Time, I wrote: << I am sure someone else may know the distinction, but I always thought Messenger and Gold Star were essentially the same: a car with provisions for an employee on board (toilet, stove) so it could be worked en route. >> And probably a desk. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:18:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Francais (was Consist Makeup Designations) In a message dated 9/10/98 8:13:49 AM Central Daylight Time, I wrote: << I lived two years in Montreal and the phrase I know best is "je ne pas parle Francais" (I don't understand French) ! >> Or was that "je ne parle pas Francais"? Bob (apologizing in advance for wasting bandwidth) Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:06:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations Content-Length: 735 In a message dated 9/10/98 4:58:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << > However, there are some like these: > MS-60 (Open) > Express B-60 (Mess.) Gold Star > Express B-60 (Mess.) > Express B-60 Gold Star > MS-60 (X) >> *Gold Star indicated car equipped with a toilet and a locker for messenger usage...Bill* ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:30:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations Content-Length: 742 In a message dated 9/10/98 7:24:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << <> Yeah. Couldn't find that footnote either. Almost sure it eans " as needed". Bob Zoeller >> ***sorry..zipping thru 64 messages..."X" Definitely meant "When / as needed"..Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:33:46 -0400 From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: [PRR] Crossing Guards Recently a posting made mention of a rail crossing guard and the location. For anyone who may be interested, there was a crossing guard on duty into the early 1960's in Chase Maryland at the Ebenezer Road crossing of four tracks. This is just before the Gunpowder river bridge now made famous by the Amtrak Colonial wreck. (the bridge itself is two tracks) HWF ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:13:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations In a message dated 9/10/98 8:06:24 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Isn't it "je ne sais pas"? Two years of "D" French 20 years ago and I can remember "I don't know"!!! >> I lived two years in Montreal and the phrase I know best is "je ne pas parle Francais" (I don't understand French) ! But I warned you guys. If you don't behave I will sic my wife on you (except she has too much will power to participte in my vices, like fattening food and chat lists). Anyone want to try Latin? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:37:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1st year service for G38, G39/think coiled steel! In a message dated 9/10/98 8:26:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ELM2 writes: << You can also haul coiled steel in these. That's another use the railroad found for the G-39s in the "off season". I believe even the Panhandle handled coiled steel loads to some degree. >> Ed, With the ARMCO rolling mill in MIddletown a Pennsy customer thanks to the quaint CL&N, I've got another reason to finish that scratch building project and get some ore jennies moving on the Panhandle's "passenger line" through South Charleston. I believe the cars loaaded with the coils would be picked up at the small yard at the west end of the CL&N's Middletown & Cincinnati for a shuttle to Underhill for a ride east or McCullough for a trip west. Tom V. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:10:07 EDT Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and In a message dated 9/8/98 2:04:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << These Walthers Ore cars are being produced with the roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the Pennsy have ever hauled any of these type Ore cars to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank you for your anticipated response. >> Greg, I have seen photo's of Pennsy hauling B&LE ore jennies over the Horseshoe Curve but I believe they were being hauled behind steam. Check Pennsy Power 1 or Pennsy Power 2. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:05:30 EDT Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies and In a message dated 9/11/98 1:10:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN writes: << << These Walthers Ore cars are being produced with the roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the Pennsy have ever hauled any of these type Ore cars to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank you for your anticipated response. >> Greg, I have seen photo's of Pennsy hauling B&LE ore jennies over the Horseshoe Curve but I believe they were being hauled behind steam. Check Pennsy Power 1 or Pennsy Power 2. Greg Martin >> Greg, You may have missed my post last week detailing speed restrictions on DM&IR jennies on the Panhandle in Columbus and Richmond contained in a 1951 and 1 1953 Columbus Div ETT. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:33:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re Allies and enemies From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Regarding through cars to The Pacific Northwest, it was was at the same time not needed, and terribly easy to do. The Pennsy's trains came into Chicago Union Station. Most of the overnight trains came in the morning and left in the evening. The major trains to the Northwest were: The North Coast Limited, the Empire Builder, the Olympian Hiawatha, and the City of Portland. The first three ran out of Union, and after 1954, so did the fourth. Before that, you had to go to NorthWestern Station, about three blocks away. The EB, and Oly Hi arrived and departed at mid-day. After November 1952, so did the NCL. In short, making a connection in Chicago from the Pennsy to the Northwest was no big deal. It wasn't much of a walk to another platform, and not too long a wait - at worst a few hours, time enough to go shopping at Marshall Fields. Of course, making a car connection would just require setting the car over to the next track. Those NP domes on the Slow Wind stayed NP Loewy two tone Green. The NP cars that were in the IC trains were painted IC colors for at least a couple of years, and repainted NP when returned for the summer. Pat Egan SNPF (no web access) On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:22:36 EDT BPX29@aol.com writes: >JLC, >As regards your inquiry about through (passenger) car interchanges >with >northwestern rr's, I'm afraid I can't think of a one. That's assuming >we're >talking about Milw, CB&Q-NP/GN. There were cars run through via >C&NW-UP-SP, >santa Fe and Q-D&RGW-WP (Cal Zephyr), not to mention St. Louis cars, >but I'm >not aware of any cars acturally bound for the Northwest. Perhaps I'm >overlooking something and someone can enlighten me, too. But if a car >had even >run through the Twin Cities enroute to, say Seattle, I sure would have >liked >to have riden it! >Barry Peltier >P.S.-Just got a copy of Pennsy Vignettes from Clear Block from fellow >prr- >talker Randy Williamson, and this tape is wonderful. Lots of passenger >shots >and those great first generation diesels. Nice tape! > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:06:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] in September "Model Railroading"... An article on the PRR/PC/CR SD-7's and SD-9's including pix, and an article on some SBD GP-9 phase 1's which may be interesting to those seeking to model varieties of PRR geeps not or not yet available in plastic:-) -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:59:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Headend Cars Folks, Today I received an advertisement from an outfit in Michigan that mentions some mighty good news: Bethlehem is supposed to produce the B70b Scenery- express and B74 horse-express cars this winter. I'd assume these are the brass sides versions, so they should be lookin' good. Makes them a bit pricecy but at least it ain't more Chicom crap. Bon ton rollet,eh bebe? Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 01:06:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Headend Cars In a message dated 9/11/98 10:07:28 PM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Bethlehem is supposed to produce the B70b Scenery- express and B74 horse-express cars this winter. I'd assume these are the brass sides versions, so they should be lookin' good. Makes them a bit pricecy but at least it ain't more Chicom crap. >> That is good news. However I am curious about a few things. First, what do you mean by "Chicom"? Just don't understand the lingo. Second, you assume brass side versions. Previous posts had indicated BCW was going to focus on brass. They sold their B60 tooling to ECW. So you are probably right (we will eventually find out). However, they produced an end door in plastic as a kitbit. Arch roofs are available in plastic. It would have seemed that the other end was available from the B60 kit (maybe not, would have to study to see if B60 and B74 ends were same) I am puzzled at the departure from modularity. The brass car sides are beautiful in the Matchless kit. But are we now going back to the plastic or wood roof, lead ends, sheet metal sides, and wood floors of the Walthers era? I would probably build an accurate kit of the B74 and B70 kits from camel dung if that was all that was available , but I just wonder what mishmosh of materials we will see in such a kit. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 01:59:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations(reply) Jerry and all, To my understanding "MS" stands for Mail Storage. This included X-29's equipped with steam lines as well as X-42's (see PRR Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol. 2) for photo's and captions. Also Bob Reid did a very good documentation on passenger consist in Rails Northeast and RMC ran several good articles regarding head end equipment and the role of the equipment involved. At some point I will finish my article "but First the Mail" modeling a "Blue Ribbon" passenger train (as PRR called the lesser known trains) however: "But First the Mail". I have a soft spot for Erie Builts and ALCo PA/B and Sharks hauling "trains that have no names" on the Ohio race way mainline to St. Louis on Lines West. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 02:44:59 -0400 Hello PRR Enthusiast; For those who questioned the scale, yes the R-50b will be imported in "HO" scale. I have published photos of the R-50b pilot samples, Version 2 and 3 on our Web Site, take a look !! www.railclassics.com On Head-end Cars: To add to list previously mentioned, in 1957 some R-50b's had their refrigeration units removed, the ice hatches permanently closed and were used in MS service. The cars which were converted, externally looked the same as our Version 3 car, which had the freight car appliances removed in the late 1940's and were classified as "Passenger Service" only refrigeration cars. EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:27:46 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Remaining Signal Towers in the U.S. An acquaintance of mine (Peter Thompson), a member of the British Region NMRA is developing a web site that is devoted to the remaining signal towers in the U.S. http://members.aol.com/pttower/index.htm THOMPSONPE@aol.com He would be very pleased to hear from anyone PRR-talk who could provide him with information or point him in the direction of web-sites / publications etc. that would help develop the PRR aspect of his site. Thanks in advance, -- John H. Wright Visit the NEW & BIGGER Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts and details of our exhibitions, fun stuff, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 05:56:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Consist Makeup Designations(reply) In a message dated 9/12/98 2:16:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << have a soft spot for Erie Builts and ALCo PA/B and Sharks hauling "trains that have no names" on the Ohio race way mainline to St. Louis on Lines West. >> Greg, Tell me more about these magbificent steeds on the Panhandle. When they havve been found on the Columbus & Xeniia crossing the RT&I diamonds at South Charleston. Railfans old enough to remember Pennsy varnish moving thrrough Xenia say that anything but EMD was pretty durn rare. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:07:41 EDT Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR allies Greg, My post was about class U22 Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range jenniies. I've never heard of DT&I jennies. If my post referred to the DT&I, I appologize. All references should have been to the DM&IR. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:03:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Headend cars Folks, Bob Zoeller was wondering about the B70b and B74 from Bethlehem. Guess I've been wondering too, as I only heard about them yesterday. Seems the brass sides are almost a given, considering their specialized nature, but I was also wondering about the rest of the car. I had picked up the plastic "horse car" end as a kitbit as part of a scratchbuilding project (of a B70b, by the way), and assume it'll be part of the new kits. As for the regular end, well I ain't sure. BCW makes bagg ends in at least two versions, but whether either fits these cars I don't know. And the arch roof isn't a match for the roofs used in their Reading cars. Maybe their "RPO" plastic roof is, but I think their wood arch roof is too high, but I could well be wrong. What are the roof and floor like on their 70' SOO bagg? Are they plastic or what? Guess we'll find out and be grateful for what we get. So far their prototype fidelity has been more than acceptable by my standards. As for the jargonal term of Chicom, well that's an expression I picked up while serving in the infantry in Viet Nam. It means Chinese-Communist . You'd pick up an AK-47 or 45, or a potatoe masher grenade from the battlefield and the inferior quality would easily identify it's origin as Red Chinese rather than russian, not that that was anything to brag about either. Far as I can tell, the same fun-loving crowd that brought us the Cultural revolution, tieneman square, and missile-capability to Kadafy are also bringing us P2K and Spectrum. Considering that they've killed more people than Hitler and Joe Stalin combined, and continue to be the same old crowd, I won't buy any of their crap. I don't need anything on my layout that badly. But that's just my take on it. Other folks have a different way of looking at these things. Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:36:27 -0700 From: Eugene Deimling Subject: [PRR] Model Photos I have several photos of some of my 1/4"scale freight cars. They are X-29,G-31, and FM. Is there a place to send them for inclusion on your website? Gene Deimling ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:26:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght Passenger Cars From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I wanted to pass this along here since this was a topic of discussion here about a week ago or so. This info was obtained originally from the passenger car list (I am not a subscriber) and was posted to South East Model Railroader Association (SEMRA). Here is goes. "On the 27th of August a post was made to this list regarding a manufacturer coming out with a line of passenger cars. I can now make it official… Branchline Trains has signed a contract for a line of HO heavyweight passenger cars to include a variety of Pullman sleepers. These cars will feature all-new tooling which will be created by the same toolmaker that is producing our HO freight car kits with commitment to the same high quality. All kits will feature separate grabs and details. Pullmans will be offered with either ice or Pullman mechanical air conditioning or without A/C. As part of this series we will also be producing the Railway Express 6100 series steel reefer. Further announcements regarding which cars and which order they will be released in will be made at the National Model and Hobby Show in Chicago, Oct 28-Nov 1. We have been working on this project for several months now; and yes, this is the project that Denis Blake alluded to on this list. We are always looking for prototype drawings and clear detail photos. If any subscribers have information which they feel would help us in our research please contact me directly off-list at bill@www.branchline-trains.com. Bill Schneider Branchline Trains" Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:08:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Headend Cars Hi Bob, "Chicom" is the politically incorrect, Cold War-era slang term for Chinese Communists. Less often you hear "peepreps", from People's Republic of China. The reference here, of course, is to the "Plastic Valley" between Hong Kong and Canton (Guangdong?) that now molds most of our toys and models. If you're not sensitized to this, go to a toy store and read some boxes -- China, some Malaysia, more China. I'm not sure Mattel and Kenner even ASSEMBLE stuff in Mexico anymore. (don't get ME started, I've been buying a daughter toys for 12 years now). Maybe he's just peeved about the contribution to our trade deficit. I don't know how to feel - when I was a kid, all my money went to Revell and Athearn in California. Now it all goes to China. There's a moral here somewhere, but I can't see it . Still, the important news is that somebody is trying to address the headend equipment shortage. #13 (Mail and Express, New York to St.Louis) and the three passenger trains on the Panhandle (#4, #30, #31) can only benefit from more of this accurate PRR equipment. Have a good weekend. Rick T. Sometimes politically challenged, but always a Pennsy fan. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:08:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lake Ore Cars on PRR In a message dated 9/11/98 3:55:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 9/11/98 1:10:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN writes: > > > << > << These Walthers Ore cars are being produced with the > roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would the Pennsy > have > ever hauled any of these type Ore cars > to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank you for your > anticipated response. >> > > Greg, > I have seen photo's of Pennsy hauling B&LE ore jennies over the > Horseshoe > Curve but I believe they were being hauled behind steam. Check Pennsy Power > 1 > or Pennsy Power 2. > Greg Martin >> > > Greg, > > You may have missed my post last week detailing speed restrictions on DM&IR > jennies on the Panhandle in Columbus and Richmond contained in a 1951 and 1 > 1953 Columbus Div ETT > > Tom V. While we're on the subject of ore cars and stuff that "never" ran on the Pennsy: Once upon a time when we were all very young, I can remember asking one of the older, more knowledgeable fans/modelers in the Dayton/Columbus area if ore cars ever got into that area. He answered that Great Lakes transportation was so much cheaper than rail that it made financial sense to unload ore into boats at Duluth and then load it back into jennies or hoppers at ports like Toledo, Sandusky, and Cleveland. The more expensive, all-rail option would only be used when: 1) The Great Lakes were closed to navigation due to ice (every November through April or so). BTW, wasn't the Edmund Fitzgerald (of the Gordon Lightfoot song) rushing to finish its season when it sank in November 1974? 2) a steel mill threatened to run short on ore. Mills built up huge stockpiles of ore so they could operate while the Lakes were closed. This "safety stock" also was a hedge against stoppages like railroad strikes. However, if output was high over the winter, or the stockpile started to run short for any other reason, the mill might have to ship in ore all-rail and eat the freight differential. It's clear that the exceptions did happen, as with those DM&IR ore cars passing through central Ohio. One assumes these cars originated in Wisconsin and Minnesota, loaded with ore or taconite pellets, and ran all-rail through to the steel mill. I don't think "export" traffic to the East Coast is at all credible, as it would make more sense to load a ship on the lake and have it go on down the St. Lawrence canal to the Atlantic. Let's leave the Great Lakes for a moment. Depending on the direction of movement, ore traffic over Horseshoe Curve probably makes sense. When iron ore from Venezuela became available, it probably underpriced Lake ore on the East Coast. I'll bet all the steel mills on the East Coast are positioned right next to navigable water (I'm thinking Sparrow's Point, Baltimore) and unload their ore right from the ship. But the ore operations at South Philly suggest that import ore must have also moved to Pittsburgh and other Ohio Valley mills. This could be year-round, or might just be a winter phenomenon. In any case, it looks like the Pennsy was hauling this ore traffic. And once the lakes closed, they might have borrowed/used GN or other jimmies that were unemployed during the freeze. Like a lot of "traffic history," the occasions and their reasons made sense to the Operations Department and the shipper who paid the bills. We can speculate, but we are unlikely to ever know the whole story. On the other hand, this discussion raises a nice list of new questions, which should include: 1) Did John Kneiling ever discuss ore traffic in Trains magazine? 2) Why did the Pennsy wait until 1961 to acquire ore cars? Was it just because the H21 fleet got too old? 3) Steel mills at Mingo Junction, OH reportedly got their ore from Cleveland. Anybody know enough steel industry history to associate mills/cities with their Lake Ports of origin? 4) We always hear about the PRR's Hulett (sp?) unloaders at Whiskey Island, Cleveland. What was the unload equipment at other Lake ports? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:05:10 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Blackening wheels Hello! I have a number of locos that have silver wheels and I saw this stuff in the Walther's catalog called "Blacken-it". Supposedly it still allows for conduction of electricity. Anyone out there tried this stuff on locos? Are there any other possbilities? Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:29:31 -0500 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: [PRR] Blackening wheels Roger: I tryed it several years ago, (don't know if it is the same potion anymore) but it worked, sorta. Tried it to blacken some brass track and ended up with some lovely green gunk on the rail clips. Ended up removing the "blackened" track Regards, Dick Taylor relliott@mail.telis.org wrote: > Hello! > I have a number of locos that have silver wheels and I saw this stuff in > the Walther's catalog called "Blacken-it". Supposedly it still allows > for conduction of electricity. Anyone out there tried this stuff on > locos? Are there any other possbilities? > > Thanks, > Roger Elliott > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 21:06:10 -0400 Tom V., Your post have been correct; somewhere along the line I changed the railroad from DM&IR to DT&I -- so it was my error. And, I do apologize. I'll just have to stop reading and writing emails so late at night! Tom, and to everyone else, thank you very much for your comments regarding Pennsy hauling ore jennies and the Walthers' Ore Cars. Tom, thanks for catching this error and pointing out that the correct railroad in question is the Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range. Have a great day! Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > LINESWEST@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 6:08 AM > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Walthers' Ore Cars (was RE: [PRR] (long) PRR > alliesandenemiesruminati... > > > Greg, > > My post was about class U22 Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range > jenniies. I've > never heard of DT&I jennies. If my post referred to the DT&I, I > appologize. > All references should have been to the DM&IR. > > Tom V. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght Passenger Cars Date: Sat, 12 Sep 98 21:09:03 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/12/98 4:26 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >I wanted to pass this along here since this was a topic of discussion >here about a week ago or so. This info was obtained originally from the >passenger car list (I am not a subscriber) and was posted to South East >Model Railroader Association (SEMRA). Here is goes. > >"On the 27th of August a post was made to this list regarding a >manufacturer coming out with a line of passenger cars. I can now make it >officialÖ > >Branchline Trains has signed a contract for a line of HO heavyweight >passenger cars to include a variety of Pullman sleepers. These cars will Well, if it's Branchline Trains, we can be assured that it will be as accurate as, well, Athearn!!! Yes, folks, Branchline Trains is the crew that came out with the "Fleet of Modernism" cars last year...complete with vista dome. So much for good news. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:47:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures Kris, There's a book "Interstate Commerce Commission/Division of Valuation/Eastern District/Pennsylvania Railroad Company/Lines East of Pittsburgh/Type Book for Buildings/c1920 This book gives specifications for "standard" PRR structures of the time. A lot of the book is text, but there are quite a few small (i.e., about the size of a postage stamp) drawings of buildings. Specifically, there are a number of station buildings of various types of construction. The depot plans include floorplans, which together with the drawings and specifications may give enough detail to prepare construction diagrams. I got my copy about six months ago by answering an ad in the classifieds of The Keystone, the magazine of the PRRT&HS. On the inside cover, the book says,"Reproduced from PRR original by Trains & Stuff, Ltd./611 Brookwood Road/Baltimore, Maryland 21229/1995." The ad (I just found it) was in the Winter 1997 issue. It says to send $22 to Gary Schlerf at the address above, zip code 21229-1402. I don't know if the offer is still good. Hope this is helpful. John Keel In a message dated 9/9/98 12:43:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL writes: << I've seen numerous books on motive power & rolling stock but does any one know of a book/publication that deals more with the structures of the PRR. Something that would outline what typical small town stations would look like. Standard building practices for stations, out buildings, service facilities, etc. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:09:34 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght Passenger Cars Jerry wrote: > > Well, if it's Branchline Trains, we can be assured that it will be as accurate as, well, Athearn!!! > > Yes, folks, Branchline Trains is the crew that came out with the "Fleet of Modernism" cars last year...complete with vista dome. So much for good news. You are referring to the Branchline as a custom painter. Similar to Bev-Bel, where they repaint others cars. Branchline is starting their own manufacturing. Their first kit is 50' Double door box cars. It will be fairly equivalent in quality to P2K/Red Caboose/Intermountain. So the Heavyweights should be high quality and prototypically accurate. I've been waiting for quality Pullmans for a long time. Congrats to Branchline. (Actually, hold the congrats until the models are delivered. I believe the box cars are late.) Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght Passenger Cars Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:46:09 -0500 Jerry--I think I will reserve judgement until I can get my hands on one of the Branchline Pullman cars. Branchline has what you might call a split personality, first as a just-paint-it-anything-goes "reseller" of other manufacturers' stuff, secondly as a manufacturer in their own right. Although I have not seen their own much advertised boxcars yet, all I have heard is good news for us 1954 modelers. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Saturday, September 12, 1998 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght Passenger Cars On 9/12/98 4:26 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >I wanted to pass this along here since this was a topic of discussion >here about a week ago or so. This info was obtained originally from the >passenger car list (I am not a subscriber) and was posted to South East >Model Railroader Association (SEMRA). Here is goes. > >"On the 27th of August a post was made to this list regarding a >manufacturer coming out with a line of passenger cars. I can now make it >officialÖ > >Branchline Trains has signed a contract for a line of HO heavyweight >passenger cars to include a variety of Pullman sleepers. These cars will Well, if it's Branchline Trains, we can be assured that it will be as accurate as, well, Athearn!!! Yes, folks, Branchline Trains is the crew that came out with the "Fleet of Modernism" cars last year...complete with vista dome. So much for good news. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lake Ore Cars on PRR Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:12:14 -0400 Rick, Thanks for your email below regarding the subject matter: ore car on the PRR. In part you write: "It's clear that the exceptions did happen, as with those DM&IR ore cars passing through central Ohio. One assumes these cars originated in Wisconsin and Minnesota, loaded with ore or taconite pellets, and ran all-rail through to the steel mill." So, then regarding my original question regarding the Walthers Ore being produced (GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line), it would be correct or proper to have a Pennsy steamer hauling DM&IR and B&LE and possibly these other Walthers cars? I "assume" your answer is "yes". Again, thanks for providing additional light on this subject -- I've learned a lot (and I'm still learning). Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > RickTipton@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 6:09 PM > To: LINESWEST@aol.com; MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Lake Ore Cars on PRR > > > In a message dated 9/11/98 3:55:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > LINESWEST@aol.com > writes: > > > In a message dated 9/11/98 1:10:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN > writes: > > > > > > << > > << These Walthers Ore cars are being produced with the > > roadnames of GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line. Would > the Pennsy > > have > > ever hauled any of these type Ore cars > > to its steel mill customers prior to the year 1960? Thank > you for your > > anticipated response. >> > > > > Greg, > > I have seen photo's of Pennsy hauling B&LE ore jennies over the > > Horseshoe > > Curve but I believe they were being hauled behind steam. Check Pennsy > Power > > 1 > > or Pennsy Power 2. > > Greg Martin >> > > > > Greg, > > > > You may have missed my post last week detailing speed > restrictions on > DM&IR > > jennies on the Panhandle in Columbus and Richmond contained in > a 1951 and 1 > > 1953 Columbus Div ETT > > > > Tom V. > > While we're on the subject of ore cars and stuff that "never" ran on the > Pennsy: > > Once upon a time when we were all very young, I can remember > asking one of the > older, more knowledgeable fans/modelers in the Dayton/Columbus area if ore > cars ever got into that area. He answered that Great Lakes > transportation was > so much cheaper than rail that it made financial sense to unload ore into > boats at Duluth and then load it back into jennies or hoppers at > ports like > Toledo, Sandusky, and Cleveland. The more expensive, all-rail > option would > only be used when: > 1) The Great Lakes were closed to navigation due to ice (every November > through April or so). BTW, wasn't the Edmund Fitzgerald (of the Gordon > Lightfoot song) rushing to finish its season when it sank in > November 1974? > 2) a steel mill threatened to run short on ore. Mills built up huge > stockpiles of ore so they could operate while the Lakes were closed. This > "safety stock" also was a hedge against stoppages like railroad strikes. > However, if output was high over the winter, or the stockpile > started to run > short for any other reason, the mill might have to ship in ore > all-rail and > eat the freight differential. > > It's clear that the exceptions did happen, as with those DM&IR ore cars > passing through central Ohio. One assumes these cars originated > in Wisconsin > and Minnesota, loaded with ore or taconite pellets, and ran > all-rail through > to the steel mill. I don't think "export" traffic to the East > Coast is at all > credible, as it would make more sense to load a ship on the lake > and have it > go on down the St. Lawrence canal to the Atlantic. > > Let's leave the Great Lakes for a moment. Depending on the direction of > movement, ore traffic over Horseshoe Curve probably makes sense. > When iron > ore from Venezuela became available, it probably underpriced Lake > ore on the > East Coast. I'll bet all the steel mills on the East Coast are positioned > right next to navigable water (I'm thinking Sparrow's Point, > Baltimore) and > unload their ore right from the ship. But the ore operations at > South Philly > suggest that import ore must have also moved to Pittsburgh and other Ohio > Valley mills. This could be year-round, or might just be a > winter phenomenon. > In any case, it looks like the Pennsy was hauling this ore > traffic. And once > the lakes closed, they might have borrowed/used GN or other > jimmies that were > unemployed during the freeze. > > Like a lot of "traffic history," the occasions and their reasons > made sense to > the Operations Department and the shipper who paid the bills. We can > speculate, but we are unlikely to ever know the whole story. > > On the other hand, this discussion raises a nice list of new > questions, which > should include: > 1) Did John Kneiling ever discuss ore traffic in Trains magazine? > 2) Why did the Pennsy wait until 1961 to acquire ore cars? Was it just > because the H21 fleet got too old? > 3) Steel mills at Mingo Junction, OH reportedly got their ore > from Cleveland. > Anybody know enough steel industry history to associate mills/cities with > their Lake Ports of origin? > 4) We always hear about the PRR's Hulett (sp?) unloaders at > Whiskey Island, > Cleveland. What was the unload equipment at other Lake ports? > > Til the next train out, > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) > Operating the Panhandle Route > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:48:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght Passenger Cars In a message dated 9/12/98 11:01:01 PM Central Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << Jerry--I think I will reserve judgement until I can get my hands on one of the Branchline Pullman cars. Branchline has what you might call a split personality, first as a just-paint-it-anything-goes "reseller" of other manufacturers' stuff, secondly as a manufacturer in their own right. >> Jerry, Steve, et. al.: We had a thread on the passenger car list and I made the comment that to get some accurate prototype cars, we allow the manufacturer who produces them the leeway to make money off the toy train market by lettering for every other road under the sun. That way the toy train buyers subsidize future car development. In other words,to give an example, to get a P85BR, let him letter it for UP, SF, whatever, to recover his tooling costs. Don't forget, Bowser too has a split personality. We get some reasonable replicas of Pennsy prototypes and he makes additional money selling cars lettered ala BevBel. As far as bogus FOM cars, those who know and care don't buy them. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:07:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Heavywieght Passenger Cars Steve and other Pennsy People, I second these motions. If the quality of the Pullman is as good as their paint jobs, I'm not worried in the least. The one thing that concerns me is the length of the production cycle: those 50' box cars been in the mags a long time before they've been in the hobby shops! And a sleeper has to be a lot more work. But I'm betting it'll be worth the wait, at least for this passenger car fanatic. Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:43:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Foriegn road's Lake Ore Cars on PRR and weight restrictions Greg, I can't answer your inquiry about the various railroads listed below and their ore jennies being found on the PRR. If you have a 1961 ORER you may be able to decrypt the following entry on page 93 in the PRR Buckeye Region (Employee) Time-Table No. 9 in effect 2:01 a.m. EST, 1:01 a.m. CST Sunday, April 30, 1961, dealing with weight restrictions on coupled strings of cars crossing bridges: "...The above weight restrictions do not apply to Jenny-type Iron Ore cars, Class HK, HM, HMA, U22 and other similar types. These cars have a gross weight of up to 210,000 lbs. and a coupled lenght of 24 feet. Their effects on very long bridge spans is very severe and they are subject to special restrictions. Trains with loaded, coupled Jenny type iron ore cars are subject to the special restrictions in Special Instructions 1160-A (12 pages of tables showing all weight restrictions on bridges, etc., in the Buckeye Region, essentially the entire system west of Columbus) as follows: "Four or more loaded, coupled cars -- Column I engine restrictions. "Three or less loaded, coupled cars -- Column M engine restrictions." Checking the chart, I find that column I and Column M are listed as "special load restrictions" while the engine restriction columns are numbered. While all motive power is listed in their corresponding columns, there is no similar explanation of the special load restrictions. I realize this goes beyond the scope of the post I am responding to. I thought you operations types would appreciate this information so you could establish more realistic operating conditions on your lay out. Please note, the above quoted entry does not appear in my 1951 and 1953 Columbus Div. ETTs which included a systemwide 30 mph speed limit on all trains hauling loaded DM&IR jenny-type iron ore cars in addition to the local restrictions in Columbus and Richmond quoted in my posting on this subject last week. Tom V. In a message dated 9/13/98 12:27:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: << So, then regarding my original question regarding the Walthers Ore being produced (GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, NP, and SOO Line), it would be correct or proper to have a Pennsy steamer hauling DM&IR and B&LE and possibly these other Walthers cars? I "assume" your answer is "yes." Again, thanks for providing additional light on this subject -- I've learned a lot (and I'm still learning). >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:27:08 -0400 From: bobsin@tempest.nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Blackening wheels Is the blackening chemical similar to what is used for pre-blackened rail, does anyone know? I have had problems with handlaid track with preblackened NS rail; corrosion began at the contact points with (steel) spikes. I actually had to rip up maybe 50 feet of track, wirebrush off the blackening compound, paint the rails with Floquil, and relay. Handlaid switches were left in place and continue to decay. But it was a very prototypical rail replacement program! John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 12:10:35 -0700 Subject: [PRR] SOAP BOX TIME From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Sat, 12 Sep 98 21:09:03 -0400 Jerry writes: >Well, if it's Branchline Trains, we can be assured that it will be as >accurate as, well, Athearn!!! > >Yes, folks, Branchline Trains is the crew that came out with the = >"Fleet of Modernism" cars last year...complete with vista dome. So = >much for good news. FELLOWS, LET'S NOT SHOOT ANYONE UNTIL WE SEE THE RESULT OF THE EFFORT. MORE COMPANIES ARE WAKING UP TO REALISM IN THEIR PRODUCTION OF MODEL RR GOODS. BRANCHLINE IS COMING OUT WITH THEIR OWN BOXCAR--FRESH MOLDS--NOT ATHEARN REPAINTS. THIS IS NOT CHEAP. LETS GIVE THEM A CHANCE. AND ATHEARN HAS DONE TREMENDOUS WORK ON THEIR NEWEST DIESELS--DASH 9'S, AMD 103, EVEN THE GP 50 AND 60 OF FOUR YEARS BACK. IT TAKES SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS TO MAKE THESE MOLDS--SLOW PROCESS. THAT'S WHY WE STILL HAVE ALL THOSE 40-30 YEAR OLD FREIGHT AND PASSENGER CARS BY ATHEARN. ENOUGH OF THESE HAVE TO SELL TO FUND THE UPCOMING SD 70 GENESIS LINE. SEE THE PATTERN? OF COURSE, IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS, EVERYONE WILL WANT THESE SD70S AT $3 OVER COST, AND WONDER WHY THE SHOPS ARE CLOSING UP! (THEN THE BIG BOYS IN MAIL ORDER WILL HAVE NO COMPETITION, PRICES GO UP...SEE ANOTHER PATTERN?) ARE YOU ALL WILLING TO PAY FOR THE REALISM YOU SEEK? I HAD PLANNED ON BECOMING AN INDUSTRIAL DESIGNER AND MAKE MODEL RR PRODUCTS. AFTER WORKING IN SOMEONE ELSE'S RETAIL HOBBY STORE FOR 3 YEARS, I'M GETTING THE HAY OUT OF THIS BUSINESS. IT'S A STICKY WICKET, AND I GIVE A HATS OFF TO ANYONE BRAVE ENOUGH TO BRING NEW GOODS TO THE TABLE. THIS IS NOT A SCREAMING MATCH, NOR SHOTS FIRED IN ANGER. ITS MERELY A REALITY CHECK FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BUSINESS. DON'T TAKE THIS AS A PERSONAL DEAL. JUST THINK OVER THE BIG PICTURE. THANKS, SSGT YORK (WHO IS GLAD THAT YOU CAN'T BUY PENN CENTRAL STEAM ENGINES IN "N" SCALE TODAY--YOU COULD 20 YEARS AGO!) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Foriegn road's Lake Ore Cars on PRR and weight Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:50:42 -0400 Tom V, Thanks for the great information. I can now proceed with more realistic operations relative to ore freight traffic. Again, thanks. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > LINESWEST@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, September 13, 1998 9:43 AM > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Foriegn road's Lake Ore Cars on PRR and weight > restrictions > > > Greg, > > I can't answer your inquiry about the various railroads > listed below and > their ore jennies being found on the PRR. If you have a 1961 > ORER you may be > able to decrypt the following entry on page 93 in the PRR Buckeye Region > (Employee) Time-Table No. 9 in effect 2:01 a.m. EST, 1:01 a.m. CST Sunday, > April 30, 1961, dealing with weight restrictions on coupled > strings of cars > crossing bridges: > > "...The above weight restrictions do not apply to > Jenny-type Iron Ore cars, > Class HK, HM, HMA, U22 and other similar types. These cars have a > gross weight > of up to 210,000 lbs. and a coupled lenght of 24 feet. Their > effects on very > long bridge spans is very severe and they are subject to special > restrictions. > Trains with loaded, coupled Jenny type iron ore cars are subject to the > special restrictions in Special Instructions 1160-A (12 pages of tables > showing all weight restrictions on bridges, etc., in the Buckeye Region, > essentially the entire system west of Columbus) as follows: > "Four or more loaded, coupled cars -- Column I engine restrictions. > "Three or less loaded, coupled cars -- Column M engine > restrictions." > > Checking the chart, I find that column I and Column M are > listed as "special > load restrictions" while the engine restriction columns are > numbered. While > all motive power is listed in their corresponding columns, there > is no similar > explanation of the special load restrictions. > I realize this goes beyond the scope of the post I am > responding to. I > thought you operations types would appreciate this information so > you could > establish more realistic operating conditions on your lay out. > Please note, the above quoted entry does not appear in my > 1951 and 1953 > Columbus Div. ETTs which included a systemwide 30 mph speed limit on all > trains hauling loaded DM&IR jenny-type iron ore cars in addition > to the local > restrictions in Columbus and Richmond quoted in my posting on this subject > last week. > > Tom V. > > > > > In a message dated 9/13/98 12:27:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > greglear@bellsouth.net writes: > > << So, then regarding my original question regarding the Walthers > Ore being > produced (GN, DM&IR, B&LE, C&NW, > NP, and SOO Line), it would be correct or proper to have a Pennsy steamer > hauling DM&IR and B&LE and possibly these other Walthers cars? > I "assume" > your answer is "yes." > > Again, thanks for providing additional light on this subject -- I've > learned a lot (and I'm still learning). > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:44:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Foriegn road's Lake Ore Cars on PRR and In a message dated 9/13/98 1:46:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, greglear@bellsouth.net writes: (quoting me): << systemwide 30 mph speed limit on all > trains hauling loaded DM&IR jenny-type iron ore cars i >> Still in effect in the 1961 ETT. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] the PRR and LIRR Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:57:38 -0400 What was PRR's relationship with the LIRR?? I've never heard the FULL story. -Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:05:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Latest Circus Train Dates (9/12) 128th EDITION BLUE UNIT Sep 17-20 (KeyArena at Seattle Center, Seattle, WA) Sep 22-23 (Spokane Arena, Spokane, WA) Sep 25-27 (Rose Garden, Portland, OR) Sep 30-Oct 4 (Delta Center, Salt Lake City, UT) Oct 7-18 (Denver Coliseum, Denver, CO) Oct 23-Nov 1 (Gund Arena, Cleveland, OH) Nov 4-15 (Rosemont Horizon, Rosemont, IL) Nov 17-29 (United Center, Chicago, IL) 127th EDITION RED UNIT Sep 16-20 (Market Square Arena, Indianapolis, IN) Sep 23-27 (Van Andel Arena, Grand Rapids, MI) Sep 30-Oct 4 (Marine Midland Arena, Buffalo, NY) Oct 7-11 (Joe Louis Arena, Detroit, MI) Oct 14-25 (FleetCenter, Boston, MA) Oct 28-Nov 1 (Civic Arena, Pittsburgh, PA) Nov 4-8 (Kiel Center, St. Louis, MO) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Sep 98 9:44:28 EDT From: Subject: [PRR] Cabin cars Can anyone tell me when the practice of painting the cupolas yellow for interdivision assigned cabin cars began? thanks, Kris ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:48:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars In a message dated 9/14/98 6:45:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL writes: << Can anyone tell me when the practice of painting the cupolas yellow for interdivision assigned cabin cars began? thanks, Kris >> *******real quick answer....early to mid-1960's.............also gray gig top for southern pool use. Better exact date this afternoon..........Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: pennsy@alphalink.com.au (Mike Molloy) Subject: [PRR] Value of a Brass Loco Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:29:53 GMT Hi everyone, I am looking for thoughts on the value of a brass loco I have. ( I am changing my insurance and wish to include it) It is a GG1 in HO by Lambert Associates. The unit is in excellent mechanical condition. It will pull 150+ Athern hoppers on the club layout. (on the flat) It is unpainted. It is, however, covered in a protective clear laquer. It has spent most of its life in its box, only being bought out for special occasions such as club show days/weekends (4 or 5 times a year) Thanks Mike Molloy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Value of a Brass Loco Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:09:03 -0400 Mike, The current market value of this model in the condition which you describe is approximately $225. There are usually quite a few of the Lambert GG1 models available around the country at any given time. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Mike Molloy To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 10:41 AM Subject: [PRR] Value of a Brass Loco Hi everyone, I am looking for thoughts on the value of a brass loco I have. ( I am changing my insurance and wish to include it) It is a GG1 in HO by Lambert Associates. The unit is in excellent mechanical condition. It will pull 150+ Athern hoppers on the club layout. (on the flat) It is unpainted. It is, however, covered in a protective clear laquer. It has spent most of its life in its box, only being bought out for special occasions such as club show days/weekends (4 or 5 times a year) Thanks Mike Molloy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:08:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars In a message dated 9/14/98 9:47:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL writes: > Can anyone tell me when the practice of painting the cupolas yellow for > interdivision assigned cabin cars began? > > thanks, > > Kris Kris, No, and even more frustrating, I have no evidence as when interdivisional assignments themselves might have started. One clue - in the photos I have seen, a yellow cupola is most likely to be on an N8, but is always on a steel caboose. This suggests the yellow cupola might be a post-WWII device for ID'ing pool cars. Also keep in mind that while yellow cupolas indicated East-West interdivisional pools, gray/white cupolas indicated North-South pools. Pics of these N-S pool cabins aren't abundant, but again I think what is visible is N8's. Then this raised the logical question -- where would you run a North- South pool cabin? Could it go off on an L&N or Southern pool train via Cincinnati? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:26:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars Our N5c was at one time painted orange with a yellow cupola. Can anyone explain that one? Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] "Makeup of Trains" editions needed Date: Mon, 14 Sep 98 14:32:54 -0400 From: Jerry I had purchased from Chuck Blardone the New York Divisions' "Makeup of Trains" book dated Sept. 26, 1954. It is extremely useful in my efforts to document "24 Hours at Harrisburg". It provides precise consist information and even car names for trains originating/terminating in New York City. Does anyone have (Chuck doesn't) the edition of the same date for the Maryland Division? It would provide similar info for trains originating/terminating in Washingtown, D.C. What about the Philadelphia Division? (I'm waiting on a reply from Chuck on this one.) It would add to the New York Division data by supplying info on the Harrisburg-Philly commuter trains. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:36:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars In a message dated 9/14/98 11:14:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << these N-S pool cabins aren't abundant, but again I think what is visible is N8's. Then this raised the logical question -- where would you run a North- South pool cabin? Could it go off on an L&N or Southern pool train via Cincinnati? Til the next train out, >> **Rick, I think you missed the point....pool cabins meant ON PRR...interdivisional, versus each condr getting his own cabin placed on the train at each crew change. The NY-Ches Div (old MD) pool ran these...MD3, MD7, MD6, MD16, etc....also TT23 & TT24....during my time......(mid-later 1960's). N5's got the treatment, also......maybe dig earlier tomorrow......gotta go... I can picture the article in The Pennsy; maybe Tuesday for a deeper dig. I DID find the Madison " Hill " ( Ind) story in the Aug '52 PENNSY....the Reuben Wells was the first "Normal traction" locomotive to run the ' hill ' in.....1868.....Bill******** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars Date: Mon, 14 Sep 98 14:43:33 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/14/98 2:08 PM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: >Then this raised the logical question -- where would you run a North- >South pool cabin? On the former RoW of the Northern Central Railway, of course!!! NCRy ran from Baltimore to Harrisburg, via York, on what later was the Northern Central Branch. It continued from Enola, across the Rockville Bridge, to Sunbury, Selinsgrove, to Williamsport. This, offhand, I believe was called the Sunbury Branch. >From Williamsport it ran through Elmira and Stanley to Sodus Point, NY, on what was later known as the Elmira Branch. That's a north-south route of 400 and some miles, I believe. 461 sticks in my mind. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Sep 98 15:13:20 EDT From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars PRR adopted the Focal Orange as the color for cabin cars in 1965. According to PRR Color Guide Vol 2 the Pennsylvania Stae Highway Department recommended the change in color to increase visibility and reduce grade crossing accidents. IMHO orange was a really ugly choice of color. kris ------------- Original Text From: , on 9/14/98 2:26 PM: Our N5c was at one time painted orange with a yellow cupola. Can anyone explain that one? Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:13:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars ---RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/14/98 9:47:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL writes: > > > Can anyone tell me when the practice of painting the cupolas yellow for > > interdivision assigned cabin cars began? > > > > thanks, > > > > Kris > Kris, >This suggests the yellow cupola might be a post-WWII device for > ID'ing pool cars. Post-WW2 for sure. I lived a few tens of feet from the main line in Latrobe, PA until mid-1948 and do not recall seeing yellow cupolas during the war. As to when they started though, I'm as much at sea as you. Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars ---TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > > Our N5c was at one time painted orange with a yellow cupola. Can anyone > explain that one? > > Rick > I believe that toward the end of it's life, PRR started painting cabooses in Focal Orange (Focus Orange?) so as to improve visibility and hence improve safety. Given that a car painted orange for safety was in pool service, it would follow that it would get a yellow cupola, ghastly though the combination may have been. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:05:29 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures Hi All, I'm curious. Do the later editions of the "57 Plans" book contain any drawings that aren't in the earlier editions or are they identical reprints? Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] The Paoli Local Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:26:49 -0400 I am a "student" of PRR commuter operations[someday I would like to be employed by NJT or SEPTA]. Before electrification, what was the common power asighned to the Paoli Local? An atlantic? How many locals did the run in the steam era? A steamer is not exactly bi-directional and would have to be turned at Broad Street, where did they wye the engines in Paoli and Philly? And finally, what was it like to ride the MP54's, according to my father, they where "fun". -Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:52:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars/Cupola Colors To All, A quick review of PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol.2 by Ian S. Fisher reveals N-5, N-5c, and N-8 cabins with the yellow cupolas pool service. Earlist views are from April 1962(N-8 #478217 w/trainphone equipment). If you have a copy, please review Painting and Lettering of Pennsylvania Railroad Cabin Cars by Gary C. Rauch, Robert L. Johnson, and Fredrick V. Shaefer (The Keystone vol.7 #4, Dec. 1974). I will quote for those of you without a copy. "Beginning in late 1961, the entire cupola, including the cupola roof, was painted chrome yellow on cars permanently assigned to through pool service. (For a month preceding this, this specification called for chrome yellow on cupola side sheets only.) For cars temporarily assigned to through pool service, a chrome yellow circle with 5-inch O.D. and 2-inch I.D. was stenciled on the center of the cupola side sheets, as seen in figure 4 and 7 and in a photogragh of class N5 cabin car 477192 in The Keystone, December 1973. For pool cars in electrified territory, cupolas were painted gray beginning in 1963." The 477192 is an N-5 cabin photographed at Cambridge, Ohio in Oct. 1972. The car was upgraded with modern windows and interior layout (this cabin appears to be freight car color with black roof and cupola). You'll need to look hard for this symbol as it is small. Figures 4,5, and 7 show the lettering diagrams updated 1-12-61 for painting the entire cupola chrome yellow. I hope this helps. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:58:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars/Cupola Colors-REVISED Date Sorry All, The date for painting the cupolas is 12-1-1961 not 1-12-1961 as I sent. I'm trying too hard tonight. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:55:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] N.-S pool cabins Ah, go west, Lines West. There was N-S interdivisonal traffic from Louisville-Chicago,via theJeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis, west on thr Panhandle main to Ben Davia and then north on the Frankfort & Indianapolis (all Indy Div.then north on the Terre Haute & Logansport to the Panhandle's Chicago-Columbus CC&IC/CStL&P mainline atLogansport (Logansport Div.) and then into Chicago on the Chicago Terminal Div. Then there was the run from Cincinnati to Richmond on the Cincinnzti Brancch anddd then north to Fort Wayne on the GR&I (all Cincinnati Civ.,) then noth into Michigan on the Forttt Wayne and Grand Rapids Diivs.; from Maaietta to aa number of ponts northh thru the Panhandle, Clveland, Pittsburgh and Erie & Ashtabula Divs. Anymore? Sorry, Cincinnati-Sandusky run completely in the Columbus Div. Come to think off it, these gray-topped cabins (taht what it saays on the traaacing in the PRR Compendium) would bringg up the raaer of all that lake- bound mineral traffic we've benn talking about lately. And yes high visibility Focaal Orange with the simple krystone and gothic reporting marks and numberrrss was the final colorrr scheme for Pennsy cabin caars adopted, I believe in early 1966. I believe more cabins became NYC green than Focal orange. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:05:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Paoli Local In a message dated 9/14/98 6:46:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tktrower@earthlink.net writes: << d they wye the engines in Paoli and Philly? And finally, what was it like to ride the MP54's, according to my father, they where "fun". >> ******some of my roughest butt neatest rides were MP54s at speed. The dc powered were calm; the ac powered (motor-trailer pairs especially) were noisy, shaky but great fun. And...no speed control...so you could run a train properly..!!! Back a bit to your L I R R question...the PRR owned the LIRR totally, then did not take any charges out for about 12 years up to 1965. When I started on the PRR, soon after, they announced selling the L I R R to NY STate for...ummm...about....$ 65 Million. I am sure that my other pals here (DM, Etc.) are much better versed in L I R R / P R R history; I will gladly defer to them for further info................Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:23:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars/Cupola Colors-REVISED Date In a message dated 9/14/98 8:42:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ELM2@aol.com writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars/Cupola Colors-REVISED Date Date: 9/14/98 8:42:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: ELM2@aol.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: ELM2@aol.com, TodEngine@aol.com, prr-talk@dsop.com Sorry All, The date for painting the cupolas is 12-1-1961 not 1-12-1961 as I sent. I'm trying too hard tonight. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" >> *****and the Joe Jack School of dyslexic typing, like em..????ummm...me..??? Hi, Ed...Thanks. Regarding the " Focal Orange Paint ": from THE PENNSY, 11/1/65 issue, paraphrased: About one cabin a day is being rebuilt at Altoona, 18 day face lift program. The FOP is a high visibility reflective coloring developed by PA State Highway Dept. Paint glows when hit by a light source at night. Handholds and lettering painted reflective white. Cabins were completely rebuilt, 160 done in 1965. ( meaning interiors, touch ups and repaires to exteriors, etc). Photo shows N5 #477058 glaring in the sun. I still really doubt a cabin ran with FOP and a yellow gig top at the same time, since by then the EW/NS pool idea was fading like the paint on the MP54s........any cab, any way. take care, Bill******** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:09:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars In a message dated 9/14/98 3:42:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRRSignals@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 9/14/98 11:14:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > << these N-S pool cabins aren't abundant, but again I think what is visible > is > N8's. Then this raised the logical question -- where would you run a North- > > South pool cabin? Could it go off on an L&N or Southern pool train via > Cincinnati? Til the next train out, >> > > **Rick, I think you missed the point....pool cabins meant ON > PRR...interdivisional, versus each condr getting his own cabin placed on the > train at each crew change. Bill, Oops! I agree with you that the cabooses with yellow or gray cupolas were for inderdivisional pools on the Pennsy, and had no significance vis a vis runthroughs with other railroads. My wording as above is inappropriate to this discussion. I didn't intend to imply the colored cupolas had anything to do with runthrough trains or interchange. The extraneous comment about Cincinnati got in there because a group of us HAVE been talking about north-south runthroughs via Cincinnati, and the possible equipment used on them. That's a good thread for another time. Also, the rate divisions problems that PRR and PC had with north-south interchange traffic will be another good thread to pursue later, but it doesn't belong under the subject heading of CABIN CARS. > > The NY-Ches Div (old MD) pool ran these...MD3, MD7, MD6, MD16, etc....also > TT23 & TT24....during my time......(mid-later 1960's). Interesting this was in the east. Wonder if the gray cupolas were used anywhere on Lines West north-south routes? > Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:09:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars In a message dated 9/14/98 4:39:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL writes: > PRR adopted the Focal Orange as the color for cabin cars in 1965. > According to PRR Color Guide Vol 2 the Pennsylvania Stae Highway Department > recommended the change in color to increase visibility and reduce grade > crossing accidents. > > IMHO orange was a really ugly choice of color. > It was. But International Orange was in style that year :^). And it made the cabins really easy to see. Cabin car models in orange were part of the package I had to accept when I chose to model 1968. At least no Pennsy modeler has ever dared criticize the shade I paint them. In order to look right to me, it has to be a really screaming bright orange that punches through light weathering. Most of the Bowser efforts are a weak pumpkin by comparison. In contrast, I have painted and acquired PRR cabins in seemingly all the colors of red possible, including a lewd pinkish Tuscan. No sensible person (or even a Pennsy modeler ) could really believe they were all "differently weathered freight car color". Anyway, by 1965 business results were so terrible that cabin color was the least of PRR's troubles. Rick Tipton Color drift cards? No thanks, my colors drift enough as it is. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:09:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] PA's on the Panhandle In a message dated 9/14/98 1:01:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: > There is an excellent shot of his > with a set of twin Greyhounds (PA's) hauling the American heading west out > of > Dayton, Ohio on 5/23/48 sporting clean whiskers on a DGLE coat. We need to > find this guy! He has some great stuff, it rates right up there with JJ > Young, Jr., I consider to be the best Pennsy Photographer of all time. > Greg Martin > > > Tom V. wrote in a return response: > > > Tell me more about these magnificent steeds on the Panhandle. When > they > have been found on the Columbus & Xeniia crossing the RT&I diamonds at South > Charleston. Railfans old enough to remember Pennsy varnish moving through > Xenia say that anything but EMD was pretty durn rare. > > Tom V.> > Tom, This will ruin your whole day. I have a print of a George McKay photograph taken in 1950 at Zimmerman, Ohio (this is between Dayton and Xenia, and is the line segment where the PRR main is paralleled by a B&O branch). This particular photo is a little blurry due to high speed, but I can pick out: 1) the Daytona Mills on the north side of the track. Lets me verify location, as I used to see it twice a day from school bus. George is standing just east of Bellbrook-Fairfield Road on the south side of Zimmerman. He is facing timetable east, toward Alpha, Trebein, and Xenia. 2) on PRR main, westbound (toward Dayton, Indianapolis, and St.Louis), a passenger train headed by 3 PA units. The first and third units have induction train phone antennas, so this is an A-B-A set of PA's. On the lead unit, you can resolve the 5-stripe scheme. 3) since this is a black-and-white shot in 1950, with units under 4 years old, I'd have to bet on DGLE. One more reason to be grumpy I model 1968. So, some area railfans remember something other than EMD. I bought the print from George himself. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] The Paoli Local Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:16:20 -0700 I can shed a little light on your questions but not a complete answer. In the last half of the century at least, trains were turned at Paoli via a loop. The yard was on the north side of the tracks behind the tower, starting just past the westbound platform. Terminating locals would enter the yard directly facing west. The throat of the yard on the west end led to a loop track that went under the main and connected eastbound to track 1. I don't know if this loop was in place before electrification. I don't know the proceedure for turning trains at Broad street. I do know that they had a turntable at the engine facilities next to the old west philadelphia station. Leaving broad street, the railroad split three ways and went across the river on three separate bridges right about where 30th st sta is today. The westmost bridge led to the upper level of w. phila station which then curved right and went to Zoo. The east bridge decended and became the lower level at W. Phila, which turned left and went to Arsenal. The middle bridge went straight to the engine facilities which were right about where the current maryland division tracks duckunder the parking lot today. My guess would be that they left the engine at the end of the station track until the cars went out as a scheduled train, and then backed the engine out to the turntable. I rode only a few MP54s. Compared to the silverliners, they were slow to excelerate and the AC motors had an increadibly noising grinding sound. Then when the engineer backed off on the controller and started coasting, the car would become absolutely silent except for track noise. The windows also opened which seemed like it would have been fun, but my mother never let me sit next to an open window. I think I recall the cab signal acknowledger warning as being a shrill whistle sound. I'm not sure I recall the sound of the horn. John > ---------- > From: Thomas K. Trower[SMTP:tktrower@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, September 14, 1998 6:26 PM > To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: [PRR] The Paoli Local > > I am a "student" of PRR commuter operations[someday I would like to be > employed by NJT or SEPTA]. > > Before electrification, what was the common power asighned to the Paoli > Local? An atlantic? How many locals did the run in the steam era? A > steamer is not exactly bi-directional and would have to be turned at Broad > Street, where did they wye the engines in Paoli and Philly? And finally, > what was it like to ride the MP54's, according to my father, they where > "fun". > > -Josh Trower > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:41:33 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Pullman stripes Hi folks... Ok heres a kinda follow up question to the Pullman combine question i posted a while back.... On Pullman cars that were painted to match Pennsy's tuscan consists, were they striped just like the Pennsy cars were? I've seen the one picture of the Pullman sleeper in the "Color Guide" book,(which does'nt have stripes)but i've also got the black and white Model Railroader photo of one of the "Liberty" cars(which were used on the Pennsy)and i believe it has stripes...but can't tell for sure,so which would it be...? I've gotten my car painted,but am holding off on the stripes until i find out more... Thanks to any who can help... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:37:39 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Railfest Dinner at Hoss's Greetings to the groups, As I did last year, I'll set up the dinner at Hoss's on Saturday evening October 3, 1998. Last year we all got together at 7 PM. I would like to begin a list of who is planning to attend the get together at Hoss's. I'll post a weekly update to both lists. By the way, there are two Hoss's in the Altoona area. We will have dinner at the one we ate at last year. It is on Valley View Blvd at 7th Street not to far from the RR Museum. The other one is at the Meadows Intersection between Hollidaysburg and Ducansville; not there. Hoss's does not reserve its group meeting room on Firday or Saturday evenings. However, they went out of their way to accomodate us last year as a group in the meeting room. (The group meeting room has a railroad motif.) I have already talked to the dining room manager and she has indicated that if a total number of folks planning to have dinner together is provided in advanced that day, they will do their best to seat us together. Their best was quite good enough last year. So, is 7 PM OK for this year and who is planning to attend? Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA http://www.personal.psu.edu/drm6/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 10:29:39 EDT From: Subject: [PRR] Shark Air Horns Does anyone know what type of air horn was originally used on Baldwin Sharks. Freight, not passenger. Thanks, Kris ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Downtime (Unplanned and Planned) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 21:26:09 -0400 From: Jerry List traffic was light today due to an error on the part of the listmaster. Hey, that's me! As mentioned last week, I am changing ISP's. My new connection is ready and I tested it this morning. However, in the multitude of changing settings back and forth, my mail server was offline all day. Everything else was working fine, but mail accumulated and never was forwarded to the listserv. Everything will go through now, however. I have submitted changes for my domain records to the InterNIC. Once they are placed into service, there will be an "apparent" downtime (equipment will actually still be live) while the world's domain name servers "forget" where we were and "learn" where we are. All alphanumeric URL's that you are used to will remain as is. It is only the hidden IP addresses behind the scenes that will change. So, sometime over the next 48 hours, we will likely disappear for 6-8 hours. See you on the other side! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:40:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin cars In a message dated 9/15/98 3:09:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << o, the rate divisions problems that PRR and PC had with north-south interchange traffic will be another good thread to pursue later, but it doesn't belong under the subject heading of CABIN CARS. > > The NY-Ches Div (old MD) pool ran these...MD3, MD7, MD6, MD16, etc....also > TT23 & TT24....during my time......(mid-later 1960's). Interesting this was in the east. Wonder if the gray cupolas were used anywhere on Lines West north-south routes? > Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY >> ****Hi, Rick - always appreciate your stuff, etc.....Another interpretation offerred here was the stricter one for Gray gig used for electric territory, ylw outside.(From JJ's pal ELM2)... In my time, i remeber well the gig tops of both colors passing me at KARNY Tower as they began their trek west / south......... A PENNSY story does mention changing cabins @ Hbg from gray/electric to chrome, and "...the (chrome) cabin will accompany the train all the rest of the way (inter-div) to Chic" so apparently the author treated this as a "New event".....take care, Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:20:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Paoli Local In a message dated 9/15/98 6:09:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, johncoop@microsoft.com writes: << me sit next to an open window. I think I recall the cab signal acknowledger warning as being a shrill whistle sound. I'm not sure I recall the sound of the horn. John >> *****Hi, John...uhh..Re: PRR .MP54s..........no horn.....nice brass whistle, sounded about below a shrill fog horn with a crack.....DL&W Mu's had...a...horn...(ugh)..Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:26:51 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] The Paoli Local Were the LIRR's MUs MP-54 class also? I grew up on Long Island and for me the lasting memory was the crazy whistles on the things -- they would crack and change pitch at random. Were PRR MP-54 whistles like this? Are there any recordings available? Also, I think the cab signals may have been different PRR-LIRR. I think the "clear track" indicator on PRR cars was probably a position-light signal, but I recall the LIRR using a green "MAS" (Maximum Allowable Speed) aspect in the cab. The warning signal for excessive speed was a deafening blast, an air horn or whistle in the cab. It would never satisfy OSHA rules today! The poor enginemen! John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:24:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullman stripes In a message dated 9/15/98 8:51:36 PM Central Daylight Time, bubbles@visi.net writes: << On Pullman cars that were painted to match Pennsy's tuscan consists, were they striped just like the Pennsy cars were? >> Yes. A study of the charts in the painting and lettering guide will show that sometimes the shift from gold leaf to buff or from no stripes to stripes or double stripe to single might have been a little ahead or behind of the Pennsy, but with the exception of those short transition periods (and of course the normal delays in implementing a new paint or striping scheme) , Pullman cars and Pennsy cars had similar striping. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:52:36 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullman stripes Hank, The answer to your question about whether or not PRR Pullmans wore stripes is a qualified 'yes'. It depends on the time period you're talking about. Looking at PRR Passenger Car Painting & Lettering by Blardone & Tilp, there is a chart that specifies this for all Pullman and parlor cars assigned to or owned by the PRR. It's too involved to print here, but I can photocopy it and send it to you if you send me your snail mail address (off list). BTW, Micro-Scale does PRR (buff/Dulux gold) stripes and car lettering that I gave them the info. for a few years ago. I can't remember the numbers, but I think they were in the 87-800 series. You'll need two sets--one for all the lettering and the other for the stripes. Chuck Friedlein bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Hi folks... > > Ok heres a kinda follow up question to the Pullman combine question > i posted a while back.... > > On Pullman cars that were painted to match Pennsy's tuscan consists, > were they striped just like the Pennsy cars were? > > I've seen the one picture of the Pullman sleeper in the "Color Guide" > book,(which does'nt have stripes)but i've also got the black and white > Model Railroader photo of one of the > "Liberty" cars(which were used on the Pennsy)and i believe it has > stripes...but can't tell for sure,so which would it be...? > > I've gotten my car painted,but am holding off on the stripes until > i find out more... > Thanks to any who can help... > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:10:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: 6-axle sharks In a message dated 9/15/98 12:02:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, miracle- castings@on.aibn.com writes: > Hi Rick! I just wanted to ask you a question about the frequencey of > Baldwin DR-6-4-20's in Kentucky. I've seen a photo of one in (I think) > Louisville Yard, but I don't know how commonly they ran there. Any ideas? > Was this a regular assignment? Thanks for any info you can send. > > Pat Lawless > Miracle Castings Inc. > Pat, I have two answers for you. First, DR-6-4-2000 "A" units were definitely photographed in Louisville, at the roundhouse at 14th Street. Of course, to Pennsy fans, they're usually referred to as BP-20's. They were here in the fine old Pennsy tradition of banishing oddball and disgraced equipment to the southwest part of the system. These units ran on PRR's secondary passenger trains from Chicago to Louisville. An oddity is that these secondary trains wouldn't run every third day, because the South Wind covered the traffic that day. Once the BP-20's were gone (about 1962?), the same trains were pulled by a mix of FP7's and steam-generator equipped RS-3's, because I've seen pictures of these from the early/mid-sixties. Second answer -- I didn't come to Louisville until 1972 -- don't trust the above until I see railfan photographer Jack Fravert next week. Jack was shooting these units at the time -- in fact, if you've seen a pic of them in Louisville, good chance Jack shot it. Among questions I have - did they run as one A unit all the time? Were there A-A consists? A-B? Did Louisville ever get Alco PA's like the St. Louis trains did? Another mystery is, if these units were coming here from Chicago via Indy, where are the pictures of them en route? Of course, I've heard it said a million times, "nobody west of Pittsburgh ever took any pictures", but I still don't believe it. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:15:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: New CSX Internmodal Yard (fwd)] If anybody is interested CSX opens intermodal terminal in Chicago CHICAGO CSX Intermodal Inc. on Monday opened a intermodal terminal in Chicago. The 59th Street terminal [ex PRR] on the city's South Side has the capacity to handle up to 500,000 containers and trailer moves in a 132-acre facility with 2,000 parking spaces and 10 lanes at its entrance gate. The CSX subsidiary said the facility will increase the total intermodal capacity in the Chicago area to 1.5 million shipments annually. CSX Intermodal's other large facility in Chicago is at Bedford Park. That terminal will continue to serve a customer base that is primarily focused on container traffic. When CSX takes control of Conrail assets next year, Bedford Park will begin handling locally oriented traffic. The 59th Street facility, which cost $32 million, is designed to handle intermodal freight with direct rail connections to and from the West Coast. The current CSX facility at Forest Park will continue in operation until the end of 1998 as the company's primary facility where local motor carriers can pick up empty rail containers and trailers. Initial operating plans call for six daily trains to use the new terminal. Those trains serve routes between Chicago and Philadelphia; Evansville, Ill.; Memphis and Nashville, Tenn.; Florida points; and Savannah, Ga. The company said that shifting those trains to the new terminal will increase capacity and operational flexibility during the fall. Get TODAY'S news TODAY - RAILChicago's RAILNEWS via e-mail NO magazine can do that - at any price! http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4450/railnewsdaily.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 9:30:14 EDT From: Subject: [PRR] Rail Fest Can any one tell me if we PRR-Talkers are planning to meet at any specific point during Rail Fest? I'm already aware of the evening dinner at Hoss' Kris ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Fest '98 - All Aboard?? Hello to all, As most of you know, I have been helping to co-ordinate a few activities at the upcoming Railfest in Altoona for our listers group. Below is a short summary of the activities that about 15 of us are planning to join up for that Saturday. If you are planning to attend, would like to join in with us, and HAVE NOT already contacted me or been getting the periodic updates from me, please send me a quick note at chaslett@cse.L-3com.com to let me know. Thanks, Carl Schedule of Events: 8:30 - 9:00 - Meet in front of the museum for name badges, maps, and to say hi to everyone. 1:30 - Ride the excursion as a group, pre-boarding as a group thanks to Cliff Kendall and the staff of the museum. Call 1-888-4-ALTOONA to order tickets for the 1:30 excursion NOW, as they will be sold out by the day of the trip. 3:30 or so - Tour Juniata together after the excursion. 7:00 - Dinner at 7 at Hoss's. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Fest '98 - All Aboard?? Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 11:09:26 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/16/98 10:24 AM, chaslett@cse.l-3com.com (chaslett@cse.l-3com.com) wrote: >As most of you know, I have been helping to co-ordinate a >few activities at the upcoming Railfest in Altoona for our >listers group. Below is a short summary of the activities >that about 15 of us are planning to join up for that Saturday. I'd like to encourage more folks to attend this. Last year we had this size of crowd when the list had only 100 subscribers. We now have over 250! Please try to make it. It's really great to attach a face to an e-mail address. Maybe we oughta take a group photo at the museum or something? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:09:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard In a message dated 9/16/98 9:11:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: > > CSX opens intermodal terminal in Chicago > > CHICAGO > CSX Intermodal Inc. on Monday opened a intermodal terminal > in Chicago. > > The 59th Street terminal [ex PRR] on the city's South Side > has the capacity to handle up to 500,000 containers and > trailer moves in a 132-acre facility with 2,000 parking > spaces and 10 lanes at its entrance gate. > Randy, Thanks for forwarding your note on the new CSX facility at 59th Street. If I'm not mistaken, this ex-Pennsy yard was originally the Panhandle's Chicago freight terminus. Thus it was once the Chicago yard for trains from Louisville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Columbus. Accessed from Logansport IN via Dolton, IL, the PCC&StL line ran north through the Chicago area well away from the more famous Fort Wayne line that brought the Broadway into Chicago Union Station. 59th Street yard, located roughly west of Englewood, was far enough off the beaten path to be near-invisible except to Fairbanks-Morse fans; in 1969 it was the last stand of PC's FM switchers and a Trainmaster. One more piece of Lines West trivia: when Chicago's first Union Station was built (approximately where the present one is), the Panhandle passenger trains accessed it by running north past 59th Street yard, way on north until they turned east and ran along the south side of the C&NW coming in from the west. Finally, close to Northwestern Station, the Panhandle tracks turned south and came in the NORTH end of Union Station like the Milwaukee did. Of course, this was long ago when the Panhandle and the Fort Wayne were still separate companies, but it explains all the separate Panhandle trackage on the south, west, and north sides of downtown Chicago. It also reminds us that PRR owned 50% of the Chicago Union Station company -- 25% from the Fort Wayne (Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago) and 25% from the Panhandle (Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago and St.Louis). Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:25:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard Rick, I think you are right on that being the yard for the Panhandle. I have found a couple of interesting articles in the PENNSY employee magazine on different freight trains that did run on the Panhandle to Chicago 59th St. yard. Randy RickTipton@aol.com on 09/16/98 01:09:03 PM To: Randy Williamson/Marathon, MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU, PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: Subject: Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard In a message dated 9/16/98 9:11:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: > > CSX opens intermodal terminal in Chicago > > CHICAGO > CSX Intermodal Inc. on Monday opened a intermodal terminal > in Chicago. > > The 59th Street terminal [ex PRR] on the city's South Side > has the capacity to handle up to 500,000 containers and > trailer moves in a 132-acre facility with 2,000 parking > spaces and 10 lanes at its entrance gate. > Randy, Thanks for forwarding your note on the new CSX facility at 59th Street. If I'm not mistaken, this ex-Pennsy yard was originally the Panhandle's Chicago freight terminus. Thus it was once the Chicago yard for trains from Louisville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Columbus. Accessed from Logansport IN via Dolton, IL, the PCC&StL line ran north through the Chicago area well away from the more famous Fort Wayne line that brought the Broadway into Chicago Union Station. 59th Street yard, located roughly west of Englewood, was far enough off the beaten path to be near-invisible except to Fairbanks-Morse fans; in 1969 it was the last stand of PC's FM switchers and a Trainmaster. One more piece of Lines West trivia: when Chicago's first Union Station was built (approximately where the present one is), the Panhandle passenger trains accessed it by running north past 59th Street yard, way on north until they turned east and ran along the south side of the C&NW coming in from the west. Finally, close to Northwestern Station, the Panhandle tracks turned south and came in the NORTH end of Union Station like the Milwaukee did. Of course, this was long ago when the Panhandle and the Fort Wayne were still separate companies, but it explains all the separate Panhandle trackage on the south, west, and north sides of downtown Chicago. It also reminds us that PRR owned 50% of the Chicago Union Station company -- 25% from the Fort Wayne (Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago) and 25% from the Panhandle (Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago and St.Louis). Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:47:53 -0500 From: Bob Poortinga Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard RickTipton@aol.com reports: > In a message dated 9/16/98 9:11:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: > > > CSX Intermodal Inc. on Monday opened a intermodal terminal > > in Chicago. > > > > The 59th Street terminal [ex PRR] on the city's South Side > > > Thanks for forwarding your note on the new CSX facility at 59th Street. If > I'm not mistaken, this ex-Pennsy yard was originally the Panhandle's Chicago > freight terminus. Thus it was once the Chicago yard for trains from > Louisville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Columbus. The 59th St. yard was indeed located on the Panhandle, but was not limited to trains coming off the Panhandle. The Englewood connecting line (ECL) connected the PFW&C to the PCC&StL from EC (Englewood Connection) on the main (about 60th St) to the 59th St. yard. Freight trains coming from Ft. Wayne and points east would take the PFW&C to EC and over the ECL to 59th St. yard (and vice versa). 59th St. yard was THE main freight yard for almost all PRR traffic except TOFC and cattle which was handled by 55th St. yard on the PFW&C. Other Chicago freight yards included Colehour yard at state line on the PFW&C and 110th St. yard on the Calumet River line. The primary purposes of Colehour and 110th St. yards was to service industry (primarily steel mills) in south Chicago and northwest Indiana. Colehour was also used to stage trains destined for the BRC (Belt Railway of Chicago) and the CRI&P. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:17:49 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] active towers Thomas K. Trower wrote: > What interlocking towers are still operating on the Philly-Harrisburg portion of the "Main Line"??? > > Thanks. > > Josh Trower Don't know if this ever got answered. Let's see ... BROAD ZOO OVERBROOK (BRYN MAWR standing but closed; fire) PAOLI THORN (PARK closed; standing?) CORK STATE (HARRIS closed, reconfigured, AMTK portion run from STATE) (did I miss any?) -- Mark D. Bej ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:35:59 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] thanks Hi folks... i'd like to thank all the folks who helped me with answers to the Pullman combine questions... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLCCR@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:35:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] active towers Think you covered all the towers. While Park is no longer full-time, "regular" status, Park is opened when circumstances require, as was the case in recent weeks (in August) while tie replacement project was underway (between Lanc and Parkesburg) in which one track was temporarily out-of- service (don't recall which). ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] thank ya Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:48:14 -0400 Thanks to all who answered my active tower and commuter questions! -Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:08:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] 6 axel sharks Rick and Pennsy folks, If those bp20's were still running to "Loovulle" in 1962, there's an unfortunate reason they weren't photographed in Indy. The day locals were gone by then, and only the overnight Kentuckian, aside from the South Wind , was still running on that route. This holds true in my 1960 and '62 Guides. The nearest timetable I have prior to that is November, 1958, in which an Indy- Louisville day local still ran on the South Wind's off days, The really astonding thing about this train is that the timetable shows the NYC's James Whitcomb Riley as the Chicago-Indy leg of it's trip! (Change trains at Indy) Perhaps the photos of FP7's and RS3's are of this operation...I don't know when it came off but it must have been between Nov '58 and April '60. Now if someone could give a guy the consist of the Southland about, say 1954, I could get pretty interested in that area myself. And I always wondered why the sleeper lounge on this train was shown under the Chi-Florida train equipment but not under the Chi-Cinncy equipment when it was the same train. That's our old Pennsy. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:08:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) OK, lets take it a little further. Here's a little something about the OTHER end of the PCo. In da Sity uv Chicago, 59th St. Yard was used by both Panhandle and Fort Wayne trains. Fort Wayne trains could use either 59th or the Boulevard, also known as 55th St yard. (55th St is Garfield Boulevard.) The Englewood Connecting Line ran along 59th St. (not the yard, the street) the 2 or so miles between Stewart Avenue, along which the Fort Wayne ran, and 59th St Yard. 59th St Yard ran as far south as 71st street, where in the 50's and 60's, you could find a Baldwin or Lima 2000/2400 hp transfer unit. At the north end of the yard was a roundhouse, which I'm given to understand was the last hurrah for Pennsy steam in the Chicago area, maybe as late as '56 or early '57. For some time afterwards, the place was crowded with dead H8/9/10s. The Panhandle followed a diagonal path northwest from someplace in Indiana, across Chicago's southern suburbs to about 81st and Hale, about 1/4 mile east of Western Avenue (2400 West.) >From there, the Panhandle and the B&OCT ran parallel to each other - maybe 100 to 200 feet apart, about 3-4 blocks east of Western avenue, Panhandle on the east to about 48th. There they crossed each other to swap sides, with the Panhandle on the west. A little further north, they crossed Western avenue and continued to 16th St. At 16th St., the CT headed east parallel to the Chicago & St. Charles air line 2 1/2 miles to Grand Central Station. The Panhandle went just a little further west and then north about 2 miles. At Grand and Western Avenues stands a Chicago Union Station tower. When I visited it in the late 1950's, I was told that it was the end of CUS Co. track. It is known on the Milwaukee as A-2. It may have Milwaukee people in it. If memory serves, it guards the crossing of the Milwaukee main and NorthWestern's West Line. Also, most importantly for our purposes, it is where the Panhandle connected with the CUS Co., 2+ miles west of Union Station. My none too new Tribune Map shows a lot of blank areas where these lines were. Finally, much of this is in neighborhoods which are not near as safe today as they were forty years ago, when I was visiting towers throughout this area. Railfan beware! Pat Egan (no web access) On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:09:03 EDT RickTipton@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 9/16/98 9:11:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: > >> >> CSX opens intermodal terminal in Chicago >> >> CHICAGO >> CSX Intermodal Inc. on Monday opened a intermodal terminal >> in Chicago. >> >> The 59th Street terminal [ex PRR] on the city's South Side >> has the capacity to handle up to 500,000 containers and >> trailer moves in a 132-acre facility with 2,000 parking >> spaces and 10 lanes at its entrance gate. >> >Randy, >Thanks for forwarding your note on the new CSX facility at 59th >Street. If >I'm not mistaken, this ex-Pennsy yard was originally the Panhandle's >Chicago >freight terminus. Thus it was once the Chicago yard for trains from >Louisville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Columbus. > >Accessed from Logansport IN via Dolton, IL, the PCC&StL line ran north >through >the Chicago area well away from the more famous Fort Wayne line that >brought >the Broadway into Chicago Union Station. 59th Street yard, located >roughly >west of Englewood, was far enough off the beaten path to be >near-invisible >except to Fairbanks-Morse fans; in 1969 it was the last stand of PC's >FM >switchers and a Trainmaster. > >One more piece of Lines West trivia: when Chicago's first Union >Station was >built (approximately where the present one is), the Panhandle >passenger trains >accessed it by running north past 59th Street yard, way on north until >they >turned east and ran along the south side of the C&NW coming in from >the west. >Finally, close to Northwestern Station, the Panhandle tracks turned >south and >came in the NORTH end of Union Station like the Milwaukee did. > >Of course, this was long ago when the Panhandle and the Fort Wayne >were still >separate companies, but it explains all the separate Panhandle >trackage on the >south, west, and north sides of downtown Chicago. It also reminds us >that PRR >owned 50% of the Chicago Union Station company -- 25% from the Fort >Wayne >(Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago) and 25% from the Panhandle >(Pittsburgh, >Cincinnati, Chicago and St.Louis). > >Til the next train out, > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) > Operating the Panhandle Route > And Remembering PRR Lines West > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:24:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] active towers=Hbg line **PARK is definitely still standing, and intact, and open for track work situations, etc. on occcasion. We took advantage of one of those times back in July. I had reported on our Dinner, Mini-PRR Signal / Tower Convention and lengthy visit to PARK back on ..ummm..July 10, 1998. Mark, I mentioned that when you called.7/25 or so....must have forgotten...??!!....Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:56:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard **wow...thx, Pat....could you possibly say if Western Avenue Tower ( B&OCTRR) is still standing, as that was the first US&S Type UR entrance exit route type interlocking..???!!! We are starting to gather material for the next issue, featuring UR and GRS type NX intlkg plants...this will also be tied to a PRR multi-part signal article that will be printed shortly. Also...help from anyone regarding PRR East Conway...pix, diagrams, etc....A rare PRR type UR plant installed with the Conway Improvements, mid-50's. .......any help is appreciated by the NMRA Signal SIG..!!!!...Asst Editor, Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:07:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] MORE ORE...... ****The June 15, 1965 issue of THE PENNSY had a good ore article... "PRR Pier unloads 50,000,000th Ton"..( on 4/18/65; approx 670,000 cars) ..South Philly aka Greenwich pier built / opened march 1954. ( Cost ~$9MM) Foreign ore imported and forwarded to steel mills on PRR lines. Including ore from Quebec..!!! Stu Saunders pointed out the 3000 new ore jennies being used, costing $21MM, and "ready to build more..."............Bill**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:34:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] active towers=Hbg line On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > **PARK is definitely still standing, and intact, and open for track work > situations, etc. on occcasion. We took advantage of one of those times back in > July. > > Mark, I mentioned that when you called.7/25 or so....must have > forgotten...??!!....Bill*** I don't have my original post anymore, but I believe I indicated my own uncertainty as to its status re: standing or not. It was my least favorite tower (visually, structurally, etc.; the _track_ layout is not too shabby, 'specially with the flyover, if not all that easy to access...), and somewhat off the beaten path. Thus, I don't make it a point to stop by on my (now fewer) jaunts between Harrisburg and Philadelphia or vice versa. Note I also did not mention Landis (about which I was emailed privately), nor Leaman, as there is no physical "tower" standing. (Not that PARK was a "tower", really, either, in the strict English sense of that word.) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:33:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Southland (was 6 axle sharks) In a message dated 9/16/98 10:14:22 PM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Now if someone could give a guy the consist of the Southland about, say 1954, I could get pretty interested in that area myself. >> Wish I had access to my timetables (in movers box in my son's attic), but didn't the Southland go out of existence in the late 40's? The prevously all- coach South Wind began carrying sleepers about the same time; at least that was my impression, unless my years are off. Truth to tell, the Southland-MidCity Express of 1946 (ala the fascinating Trains article in that year) of that era was one of the most fascinating run- through trains I have ever read about and is one I want to model, even though it may be a year or two too early for my modeling. i have kept aside an unbuilt Walthers 10 section Pullman observation just for that train. Headend cars, coaches and Pullmans from Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Chicago routed through Ft. Wayne to Cincinatti and thence to Atlanta; two sections from there South, splitting again into East and West Florida coast sections. I believe Chicagoans who took IC and C&EI through sleepers met their neighbors on Pennsy sleepers from Chicago on the Diner on the same train south of Atlanta. An all-around fascinating train for passenger nuts. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:45:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard In a message dated 9/16/98 10:44:56 PM Central Daylight Time, padraice@juno.com writes: <> (snip) << The Panhandle followed a diagonal path northwest from someplace in Indiana, across Chicago's southern suburbs to about 81st and Hale, about 1/4 mile east of Western Avenue (2400 West.) >> Now you are really getting the nostalgia flowing. As a south sider, the one and only Pennsy engine I saw run in steam (saw a T1 as a child, but it was resting at the bumpers at CUS) was a wheezing, rusting J1 on the Beverly branch on the South side at 95th St. near the end of its days. Odd I am a Pennsy fan, because I saw many NYC, B&O, CN, Grand Trunk (CN), and CRI&P steamers, but only those two Pennsy's with steam up. Bob (oh for a time machine) Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:33:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Division questiond Still plowing through the 1923 CT1000, I came to the Cumberland Valley Division. q1: There are two branches, South Penn branch and Mercersburg branch. Collectively, these are marked "S P Ry & M Co." I take that to be "South Penn Railway and Mining Company". Is that correct? q2: What, if any, is the relation between the SPRy & M Co and the stillborn South Penn Railroad? q3: In Winchester, Va I came on two listings like "J. R. Ewing Co. - Plug Track". What means it "plug track"? Thanks in advance, Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:51:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Division questiond On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, robert netzlof wrote: > q2: What, if any, is the relation between the SPRy & > M Co and the stillborn South Penn Railroad? offhand, if it's nowhere near the turnpike, i'd guess none. in some places the SPRR r/w did veer away from the turnpike of now, but out there it veered *north* of the turnpike to hit that unfinished bridge over the Susquehanna. incidentally there's a small tunnel on the B&O line north of Somerset under the SPRR r/w, which at that point is a) separate from the Turnpike b) plainly visible -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:00:02 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > We are starting to gather material for the next issue, featuring UR and GRS > type NX intlkg plants...this will also be tied to a PRR multi-part signal > article that will be printed shortly. > > Also...help from anyone regarding PRR East Conway...pix, diagrams, etc....A > rare PRR type UR plant installed with the Conway Improvements, mid-50's. Bill, I have pix of E Conway, inside and out, from the early '80s. I presume it was not changed much from PRR days??? Please contact me. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:34:35 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] NC Passenger Train Hi All, especially you Northern Central types, In Volume 4-Pennsylvania RR. Diesel Locomotive Pictorial (Withers Pub.) there is a pic of a passenger train at Parkton, Md. on Sept. 3, 1949. The caption says it is in Harrisburg-Baltimore service. It's consist is: BP60 #5825/#xxxx 3 Heavyweight passenger cars. (Not sure of the types but appear to be 2 coaches? followed by possibly a baggage or combine of some type.) 6000hp for a three car train. Great proto for those with small layouts. Now if someone would just give us some BP60s. 8) Just thought you NCer's might be interested if you haven't seen it yet. Ron. P.S. Does anyone know the status of the rest of the Withers PRR Loco Series in light of the passing of Jack Hahn? R. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NC Passenger Train Date: Thu, 17 Sep 98 13:08:39 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/17/98 1:34 PM, Ron Dugas (rond@efn.org) wrote: >In Volume 4-Pennsylvania RR. Diesel Locomotive Pictorial (Withers Pub.) >there is a pic of a passenger train at Parkton, Md. on Sept. 3, 1949. >The caption says it is in Harrisburg-Baltimore service. > >It's consist is: > >BP60 #5825/#xxxx >3 Heavyweight passenger cars. (Not sure of the types but appear to be 2 >coaches? followed by possibly a baggage or combine of some type.) >6000hp for a three car train. Great proto for those with small layouts. >Now if someone would just give us some BP60s. 8) The Northern Central Branch -- Harrisburg to Baltimore -- had a lot of locomotive restrictions due to both weight and curvature. That's why you'd never see an M1, T1, or other large power on the line. Trains would use smaller power to Harrisburg, then repower. Prior to diesel, H's were the mainstay for freight; E's and K's for passenger service. Due to this, the line did get the assignment of (I believe) the first ABA set of E7's the PRR purchased -- for use on the Liberty Limited. As time went on, the NCRy became the dumping ground for old equipment not wanted elsewhere: the two K5's and many BP60's (Centipedes). Parkton was the end of the commuter line out of Baltimore. These commuter trains were called Parkton Locals and were often 2-3 cars with an excess of power. Doodlebugs also frequented the line. Yes, the line offers a lot for modelers in terms of the "unusual". However, it also lacks the opportunity to run the big guys -- T1's, M1's -- as well as electrics. The line's winding curves and high density of bridges (2/mile, I recall) make it perfectly suited to an around the bookshelf layout running around a very large room. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Server Changeover This Evening Date: Thu, 17 Sep 98 13:50:43 -0400 From: Jerry It took longer than anticipated, but I just received confirmation from the InterNIC that my domain name server IP address change has been executed and will be propogated to all of the root servers with the update that begins at 2 a.m. tonight. Late this evening, begining around 8 p.m., I will begin changing the configuration at my send. Once I have made changes, the mail server will become "deaf", as will all web sites, until the new IP address information propogates overnight. By morning, if everything goes as planned, mail and web service should be accessible once again. PLEASE DO NOT SEND MAIL TO DSOP.COM AFTER 5 PM THIS EVENING UNTIL 8 AM TOMORROW, TO INSURE THAT IT DOES NOT BOUNCE. List service should continue, as far as distribution is concerned, throughout the changeover. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:11:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] NC Passenger Train According to the issue before last of Diesel Era, they said they were going to do the whole set of Pennsy Diesel books. Ron Dugas on 09/17/98 12:34:35 PM To: PRR-Talk cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] NC Passenger Train Hi All, especially you Northern Central types, In Volume 4-Pennsylvania RR. Diesel Locomotive Pictorial (Withers Pub.) there is a pic of a passenger train at Parkton, Md. on Sept. 3, 1949. The caption says it is in Harrisburg-Baltimore service. It's consist is: BP60 #5825/#xxxx 3 Heavyweight passenger cars. (Not sure of the types but appear to be 2 coaches? followed by possibly a baggage or combine of some type.) 6000hp for a three car train. Great proto for those with small layouts. Now if someone would just give us some BP60s. 8) Just thought you NCer's might be interested if you haven't seen it yet. Ron. P.S. Does anyone know the status of the rest of the Withers PRR Loco Series in light of the passing of Jack Hahn? R. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:15:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] N5C My former N-5c PRR 477822 is in the process of being moved from Pocopson Pa. to Rochester NY by rail. It's currently in Newark on it's way to Edgemoor Yard from there to Buffalo on a ML-411 up the Buffalo line then to Syracuse on a BUSY (Buffalo to Syracuse ) It's painted primer red with NHRX 477822 rept. marks. It's the oldest N-5c in existance the third one built and probably the only out there on the rr. Keep an eye out for it. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:49:36 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Question on Withers Publishing's Jack Hahn PRR locomotive Ron Dugas wrote: > > P.S. Does anyone know the status of the rest of the Withers PRR Loco > Series in light of the passing of Jack Hahn? R. Think we may have posted something on that a few months back, but in any case, the PRR diesel series will continue. Also, you can look for more than diesels to show up in the future. After Jack died, Withers Publishing acquired his photos. Dan Cupper managing editor, Diesel Era magazine and Withers Publishing dan@mci2000.com Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:19:36 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Division questiond Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, robert netzlof wrote: > > > q2: What, if any, is the relation between the SPRy & > > M Co and the stillborn South Penn Railroad? > > offhand, if it's nowhere near the turnpike, i'd guess none. in some places > the SPRR r/w did veer away from the turnpike of now, but out there it > veered *north* of the turnpike to hit that unfinished bridge over the > Susquehanna. > > incidentally there's a small tunnel on the B&O line north of Somerset > under the SPRR r/w, which at that point is a) separate from the Turnpike > b) plainly visible > > -D Straying a little far from the topic, but there's another tunnel, about 6 or 7 miles west of the Somerset interchange, immediately adjacent to the Turnpike, its top barely visible as a dark crescent as you are travelling westbound. The Turnpike RoW starts curving left there or soon thereafter. If you pull off on the shoulder and proceed about 10-15' north, you'll be on a large mound of dirt dumped in front of the portal. The west portal was covered by the Turnpike embankment in the construction of that road. This was one of the few South Penn tunnels never used for the Turnpike -- and quite possibly the only South Penn tunnel never used, have to check to be sure. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:21:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Southland Pennsy folks, Bob Zoeller writes: "Wish I had access to my timetables (in movers box in my son's attic), but didn't the Southland go out of existence in the late 40's? The prevously all- coach South Wind began carrying sleepers about the same time; at least that was my impression, unless my years are off." Afraid in this case, the years are indeed off. The Southland is still in the July 1957 Guide, with Chicago-Tampa-St. Petersburg sleepers, and also a Detroit car from the B&O. This time the lounge-sleeper is included in the Chi- Cinncy equipment listing, though in other years it isn't.There's also a Chi- Cinncy 10-6, so it must have been a pretty sizable train, what with the headend off the discontined mail train on the same route. On the L&N prtion of the trip the scenery alone must have been well worth the fare , and all that coal moving down there would have made an old pennsy fan feel right at home. One of those "trains to have riden"!. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:31:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Division questiond On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Mark Bej wrote: > Straying a little far from the topic, but there's another tunnel, about 6 or > 7 miles I didn't think it was even that far (Quemahoning, yes?) > west of the Somerset interchange, immediately adjacent to the Turnpike, its > top barely visible as a dark crescent as you are travelling westbound. The > Turnpike > RoW starts curving left there or soon thereafter. If you pull off on the > shoulder and > proceed about 10-15' north, you'll be on a large mound of dirt dumped in > front of > the portal. The west portal was covered by the Turnpike embankment in the > construction of that road. This was one of the few South Penn tunnels never > used > for the Turnpike -- and quite possibly the only South Penn tunnel never used, > have > to check to be sure. Actually, this one (assuming you mean Quemahoning) was used by the Pittsburgh Westmoreland and Somerset, which (to bring things back on topic) received backing from the PRR, It connected with the LV at Ligonier and you can find bits of the right of way (and some is trail now) if you know what to look for. The PRR owned an interest in the B&O at the time so while the B&O was bitter that the PW&S was moving in on Somerset and made threats, PRR told PW&S management to ignore them. IIRC the line was completed to Somerset ~1906. Negro Mt. tunnel, the next tunnel east of Quemahoning, was never finished, and was one of two not to be. The other was Allegheny, which had problems because it hit a seam of wet, sandy soil, making it unstable. Neither time the Turnpike built an Allegheny tunnel (~1939, and again ~1965) was it deemed suitable for use. I believe it's about 150 feet north of the northern (westbound) tube. Laurel Mountain, Sideling Hill, Rays Hill were used and retired. Tuscarora, Blue Mountain and Kittatinny were and are still in use. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:29:34 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Turnpike/railroad tunnel question Mark Bej wrote: > > Straying a little far from the topic, but there's another tunnel, about 6 or 7 miles west of the Somerset interchange, immediately adjacent to the Turnpike, its top barely visible as a dark crescent as you are travelling westbound. The Turnpike RoW starts curving left there or soon thereafter. If you pull off on the > shoulder and > proceed about 10-15' north, you'll be on a large mound of dirt dumped in front of the portal. The west portal was covered by the Turnpike embankment in the construction of that road. This was one of the few South Penn tunnels never used > for the Turnpike -- and quite possibly the only South Penn tunnel never used, have> to check to be sure. Greetings to Mark and the list: This was Quemahoning Tunnel, at Milepost 108 on the north side of the highway, immediately east of what -- for the highway -- was and is a large cut. Just west of the cut, you can see a railroad r-o-w veering north away from the highway, identifiable by a treeline, embankment and missing bridge over a country road. Actually, this is not straying from the PRR topic at all, because Quemahoning Tunnel was (1) the only one of the nine original ones to have been completed prior to Turnpike construction, and (2) the only one used by a railroad, and a PRR-backed one at that. Started by the South Penn, Quemahoning Tunnel was abandoned in mid-project in 1885 and completed in the spring of 1906 by the PRR-supported Pittsburgh, Westmoreland & Somerset. PW&S built northwest out of Somerset to reach Ligonier and a connection with the Mellon-controlled and very-very-PRR-friendly Ligonier Valley RR, which joined the PRR Pgh. Div. main line at Latrobe. B&O, which already served Somerset, was not too happy about the PRR supporting a competing line, even though its own service between Somerset and Pittsburgh was quite roundabout. Stories are handed down of B&O posting notices warning the PW&S survey crews not to proceed, but they did anyway and the road was opened. PW&S, which used at least one Shay and one ex-PRR engine, was abandoned in 1916 and the tunnel lay undisturbed until the Turnpike surveyors showed up in 1935-36-37. They decided to bypass the tunnel so the result is the cut that is immediately adjacent. Dan Cupper dan@mci2000.com Romans 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:49:22 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Tunnels: was [PRR] Cumberland Valley Div question Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > Negro Mt. tunnel, the next tunnel east of Quemahoning, was never finished, > and was one of two not to be. The other was Allegheny, which had problems > because it hit a seam of wet, sandy soil, making it unstable. Neither time > the Turnpike built an Allegheny tunnel (~1939, and again ~1965) was it > deemed suitable for use. I believe it's about 150 feet north of the > northern (westbound) tube. Correctamundo! You can pull off the highway on the westbound side just east of the east portal and shoot a nice picture of it, though it's more visible in late fall through early spring, when the vegetation is off the trees. Still, even in summer it's pretty plain what it was. As with Quemahoning, the west portal no longer exists. > Laurel Mountain, Sideling Hill, Rays Hill were used and retired. > Tuscarora, Blue Mountain and Kittatinny were and are still in use. All 3 abandoned tunnels are accessible, though not officially so (had the privilege of going in with Turnpike employees and actually driving through Rays and Sideling). Sideling and Rays are on a 13-mile stretch of highway that was abandoned and locals ride their bikes, horses, walk their dogs, shoot basketball, etc., on the abandoned roadway. Also, you can find the South Penn r-o-w east and south of the east portal of Rays Hill, and south of the abandoned Turnpike (including a never-completed fill over a culvert) between the two tunnels. Dan Cupper cupper@mci2000.com 1 Corinthians 2:12 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:15:26 -0700 From: Eugene Deimling Subject: [PRR] PRR F-7 Did the Pennsy ever own any F-7 units (A & B) built after mid-1952? I am wondering if the units had 48" dynamic brake fans, Farr Grills and vertical body louvers? I am not sure if I know what "phase" the unit would be. Gene Deimling ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:18:20 -0700 From: Eugene Deimling Subject: [PRR] Freight Car Red I just purchased some Scalecoat II PRR Freight Car Red. Does anyone know how close this would be to the color on the drift panels? Gene Deimling ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Let's Talk! & Are There Dupes Now? Date: Fri, 18 Sep 98 16:56:29 -0400 From: Jerry The Internet Root Servers finally updated around 3:30 p.m. this afternoon, so you should be able to pull up "Keystone Crossings" and mail to "dsop.com" again. So, let's talk! Also, I'm trying a new method of list mail delivery. Let me know if you receive any dupes from this time on. I think they will be gone. However, I don't know if the server's throughput will be as great. We'll have to run it a few days to see... and put it under a bit of a load. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:34:38 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Modeling Questions.... Greetings-- I have a few questions about certain models that some of you may have used to represent your PRR pike. 1. Sunshine Models: How long does it take for them to fill an order. Most shippers ask 6-8 weeks. I ordered one of the X31F, since it was on close out. It was only introduced the month before that according to my magazines. I ordered the kit on the 14th of August and figure it may take a while. True or False? 2. Concor E7; may not be as popular as the P2K, but is not limited edition. How does this model rate in detail and performance? Don't got 'em at my shop! 3. IHC E8; repeat of above question. 4. Marc GP39H2--since some of you live near the areas these machines run, does anyone have any recollection of what magazine ran the article on how to model them about 3 years back? Don't try to figure out why I'm looking into this diverse of a field--might strain yourself! If I had my way, I'd model a triple stack layout covering 3 different eras in a huge metal building, and charge admission. What a way to build a model railroad! Oh well, back to reality! Have a good weekend, SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:04:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Questions.... > 2. Concor E7; may not be as popular as the P2K, but is not > limited edition. How does this model rate in detail and performance? > Don't got 'em at my shop! Has been sold under other names. Detail is acceptable but can't touch P2K. Running quality seems to vary with runs. Don't know how current powered units do. > 3. IHC E8; repeat of above question. Clone of Rivarossi tooling. B units hard to come by, but PRR didn't have any:-) Detail again is decent, not great, not even near P2K. Some versions have only 2 powered axles on only one truck. Running quality is kinda sad. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 00:04:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] N8 roof walks. To all (esp.th Martin brothers way out west) As threatened I'm updating the Mantua/TYCO N8 kitbash Greg Martin described in the Nov. 1990 Mainline Modeler using Bower N5c detail parts. Is the N5c footwalk tread pattern correct for the N8? Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 00:03:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bowser parts in stock?? To all: Anybody know of a hobby shop that stocks a raange of Bowser spare parts on hand? I've finally figured out how to instsll Bowers running gear and valve gear on a Bowser H9 abd an E6. It donated too many screws to the great floor god. I need one pack (half doz.) of Bowser's shoulder brass xcrew, Part # 1307. It lists from about 45 cent but the S&H hurts. Any suggestions?? Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:32:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) The model railroad club at Illinois Tech once had a large number of members that were towermen for several Chicago area roads, especially B&OCT and the Rock Island. Both had a lot of towers that controlled various junctions with both sides of the Pennsy. I spent a lot of time visiting friends in the club, especially the Rock tower at Englewood, where the Fort Wayne crossed. Frank Cararro worked 3rd trick at Western on the CT for years. When the tower came down, the maintainer saved the sign for Frank, who had at that time a different job with CSX. I didn't realize Western was the first NX, but I knew it was an older one. On the other hand, the next tower south, 49th St., where the B&OCT and Panhandle crossed and continued on parallel to each other, had probably the newest Armstrong interlocker in the country. A fire sometime around WWII took out the original tower. A new brick tower was built, and a new interlocking machine was shipped out from Baltimore. The object was to use the existing pipes and the remainder of the mechanical plant. Pat Egan (no web access) On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:56:03 EDT PRRSignals@aol.com writes: >**wow...thx, Pat....could you possibly say if Western Avenue Tower ( >B&OCTRR) >is still standing, as that was the first US&S Type UR entrance exit >route type >interlocking..???!!! > >We are starting to gather material for the next issue, featuring UR >and GRS >type NX intlkg plants...this will also be tied to a PRR multi-part >signal >article that will be printed shortly. > >Also...help from anyone regarding PRR East Conway...pix, diagrams, >etc....A >rare PRR type UR plant installed with the Conway Improvements, >mid-50's. > >.......any help is appreciated by the NMRA Signal SIG..!!!!...Asst >Editor, >Bill*** > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:01:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Let me churn the juices a bit more. I grew up in Englewood. Before the Damn Ryan Expressway, driving downtown required a variety of different streets to avoid some of the heavily traveled thoroughfares. One route my dad liked took us past the Fort Wayne roundhouse on 55th St. / Garfield Blvd. From Garfield, the noses of a lot of steam engines were visible. At the tender age of about 8, I was able to recognize the front end of the S2 and I saw it there a lot. I didn't know much about the others, but I could tell the turbine when I saw it. Englewood Union Station was my favorite haunt when I was a kid. I was a Rock fan, and their trains were pretty slick looking in the late '40s. I wandered over there one day to see what I could see, and encountered a Pennsy BP20 coming in on a passenger train. Unfortunately, I don't remember when, but I only recall seeing a BP20 there once. Pat Egan (no web access) On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:45:27 EDT Bobspf@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 9/16/98 10:44:56 PM Central Daylight Time, >padraice@juno.com writes: ><north end of the yard was a roundhouse, which I'm given to understand >was >the last hurrah for Pennsy steam in the Chicago area, maybe as late as >'56 or early '57.>> >(snip) ><< The Panhandle followed a diagonal path northwest from someplace in > Indiana, across Chicago's southern suburbs to about 81st and Hale, >about > 1/4 mile east of Western Avenue (2400 West.) >> > >Now you are really getting the nostalgia flowing. As a south sider, >the one >and only Pennsy engine I saw run in steam (saw a T1 as a child, but >it was >resting at the bumpers at CUS) was a wheezing, rusting J1 on the >Beverly >branch on the South side at 95th St. near the end of its days. >Odd I am a Pennsy fan, because I saw many NYC, B&O, CN, Grand Trunk >(CN), and >CRI&P steamers, but only those two Pennsy's with steam up. > >Bob (oh for a time machine) Zoeller > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Questions.... Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:26:36 -0400 SSGT York, I ordered my X31F when they first came out (a couple of years ago) and seem to recall that it took five weeks to get it. I'm sure he waits the usual couple of weeks for your check to clear and maybe even has to manufacture the parts after that. Don't know, but he seems like a good guy. I'm sure yours will arrive soon. Can't answer your other questions. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: staffsgtyork@juno.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 5:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Modeling Questions.... >Greetings-- > >I have a few questions about certain models that some of you may have >used to represent your PRR pike. > >1. Sunshine Models: How long does it take for them to fill an >order. Most shippers ask 6-8 weeks. I ordered one of the X31F, since it >was on close out. It was only introduced the month before that according >to my magazines. I ordered the kit on the 14th of August and figure it >may take a while. True or False? > >2. Concor E7; may not be as popular as the P2K, but is not >limited edition. How does this model rate in detail and performance? >Don't got 'em at my shop! > >3. IHC E8; repeat of above question. > >4. Marc GP39H2--since some of you live near the areas these >machines run, does anyone have any recollection of what magazine ran the >article on how to model them about 3 years back? > >Don't try to figure out why I'm looking into this diverse of a >field--might strain yourself! If I had my way, I'd model a triple stack >layout covering 3 different eras in a huge metal building, and charge >admission. What a way to build a model railroad! Oh well, back to >reality! > >Have a good weekend, > >SSGT York > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] PRR Renovo Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 10:01:50 -0700 Please pardon the repitition but last time I sent this message I did not see it come up on the list. Does anyone have information of any type on Renovo other than the keystone magazines and the book The Philadelphia and Erie RR by Rosenberger. I am looking for photos of the backside of the roundhouse built in the 1920s, from the side that faced the mountains. I know there were a couple of railfan trips there near the end of steam and many dead engines were setting back there. I am hoping that someone may have caught a portion of the roundhouse when taking photos of these engines. Also any photos that show any portions of the buildings or structures are helpful. I am interested in any photos at all taken at Renovo particularly in the steam era. There were postcards issued of the yards there also. I would like to speak or write to anyone who worked there. Thanks, Greg GAS@ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] horseshoe curve glass picture Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:49:27 -0700 My grandmother had a picture made of glass pieces, ?"cut glass"?, of the horseshoe curve. It hung in her home for all her life and now no one in the family knows what happened to it. It has great sentimental value to my mother since my grandfather was killed on the PRR in altoona as his train was heading out for the curve. My mother is one of three out of nine children still living. She has told me repeatedly she wish she had that picture. My mother is one who wants almost nothing material so this is obviously something she wants very badly. Do any of you PRR guys know where I could find one. I imagine they are rather rare. Any help will surely be appreciated!! Thanks, Greg GAS@fastinet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:39:25 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Questions.... On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 05:51:11 EDT LINESWEST@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 9/18/98 5:33:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >If you're asking about the X31f, introdution, the answer is false.. I >missed >my chance to buy one at the 1991 NMRA conventiion in Columbus. >Sunshine's >reputable and doesn't deal in vaporware. > >Tom V.. > Thanks. Will wait a couple more weeks. Just wasn't sure when to suspect that the neighbors "gained" a couple box cars off of my porch. SSGT. York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:17:00 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] horseshoe curve glass picture Greetings to Greg and the list! Greg Stone wrote: > > My grandmother had a picture made of glass pieces, ?"cut glass"?, of the> horseshoe curve. > Do any of you PRR guys know where I could find one. I imagine they are> rather rare. > Sounds like one of a pair of reverse-painted PRR scenes, issued early in this century. The painting, which was applied to a sheet of glass, was highlighted with bits of mother-of-pearl that accented certain features and made them shine more brightly. The companion scene is the Rockville Bridge. Both are patterned after photographs taken by the eminent Philadelphia photgrapher William H. Rau. The Horseshoe Curve visitor center has one of the paintings of that (I procured it for them), so if you have any question about whether what I'm describing matches what your mother remembers, maybe you could take her there and ask if it's the real thing, if distance isn't a problem. As to availability, they're not super-common but not super-rare either. Best places to look would be antique shops, antique co-ops, or antique malls within, let's say, 100 miles of either the Curve or Rockville Bridge. If I spent a day cruising such places around Harrisburg, I'd probably expect to see 2 or 3 of them. Price: Expect to pay $35 to $85 for either one, depending on condition, condition of frame (they're always framed, it seems), etc. Not great railroad art, but good railroad-related folk art. Dan Cupper dan@mci2000.com 1 Corinthians 3:16 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:33:55 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Jerry's e-mail Hello you all... I don't know if anyone else is having this problem,but i can't send anything to Jerry at his e-mail address.... til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 05:35:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 roof walks. In a message dated 9/19/98 1:54:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bubbles@visi.net writes: << A good etched roof walk will do,but you have to make the supports that go underneath it. >> Hank, I have Plano rectangular grid roof walk stock. Should I just cut it frrom thar? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:29:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Southland In a message dated 9/17/98 4:38:08 PM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Afraid in this case, the years are indeed off. The Southland is still in the July 1957 Guide, with Chicago-Tampa-St. Petersburg sleepers, and also a Detroit car from the B&O. This time the lounge-sleeper is included in the Chi- Cinncy equipment listing, though in other years it isn't.There's also a Chi- Cinncy 10-6, so it must have been a pretty sizable train, what with the headend off the discontined mail train on the same route. On the L&N prtion of the trip the scenery alone must have been well worth the fare , and all that coal moving down there would have made an old pennsy fan feel right at home. >> Shows you I shouldn't rely on memory. Was the train still routed through Ft. Wayne in 1957? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 00:33:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard **Hi, Pat....we probably have mutual acquaintances !!! Please email me, I want to discuss this much further..!!! and not tie up the prr-talk line. Thanks for the info, Bill**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser parts in stock?? Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:32:34 -0500 Tom--I have had very good service direct from Bowser. Try http://www.bowser-trains.com Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: LINESWEST@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, September 19, 1998 12:05 AM Subject: [PRR] Bowser parts in stock?? >To all: > > Anybody know of a hobby shop that stocks a raange of Bowser spare parts on >hand? I've finally figured out how to instsll Bowers running gear and valve >gear on a Bowser H9 abd an E6. It donated too many screws to the great floor >god. I need one pack (half doz.) of Bowser's shoulder brass xcrew, Part # >1307. It lists from about 45 cent but the S&H hurts. Any suggestions?? > >Tom V. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:21:06 -0500 From: Ben Kroger Subject: [PRR] PRR signals SPFers- I'm seeking a little guidance from those of you on the scene for a prototype question. As I understand it, the distinctive PRR signals are being gradually replaced with newer "stoplight" signals. Is there a legal source for these signal heads? No, I don't want one for my train room, but rather for a museum display to show the way the late great PRR did it. Regards, Ben Kroger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Jerry's e-mail Date: Sun, 20 Sep 98 09:49:21 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/19/98 7:33 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > Hello you all... > > I don't know if anyone else is having this problem,but i can't send > anything to Jerry at his e-mail address.... The move to a new ISP has worked fine and all has been online. I won't go into the specifics of how the Internet works, though many of you are privy, but "behind the scenes" of the alphanumeric addresses you are used to using (e.g. "prr-talk@dsop.com" or "http://kc.pennsyrr.com") are IP addresses. That is what the computers REALLY use to talk back and forth. When you enter an alphanumeric address, your computer does a "lookup" to a "domain name server" to find out what the IP address is. Then the numbers take over. When I changed ISP's, the number changed. I control how long domain name servers can remember my numeric address. Prior to the change, I set mine to only two hours. That would require other DNS's to "re-lookup" my numeric address every two hours. In this manner, they would find out my new number very quickly. Some DNS systems, however, allow for overriding any "timeout" that I have specified. For those users, they will continue to be unable to find my site until their DNS does a new lookup. AOL is a flagrant abuser of the DNS system. If your mail to me is bouncing, or you cannot pull up my web site, ask your MIS dept., ISP, etc., to refresh their DNS. Almost immediately thereafter, you should be able to communicate. Things at my end are fully compliant with Internet specifications. It is sites who are not that are causing any remaining problems. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:05:36 +0000 From: boxcar46@nfdc.net Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31359051: PRR FP-7 I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: PRR FP-7 Diesel / Atlas Seller: boxcar46@nfdc.net Starts: 09/20/98 09:31:36 PDT Ends: 09/27/98 09:31:36 PDT Price: Starts at $10.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=31359051 Item Description: Atlas FP-7, PRR Brunswick Green Single Strip # 9835, Test Run only. Quite and powerful engine to lead that special train.Please add $3.50 to cover shipping in the USA. Outside the USA, please contact seller for postal rate.Thanks for bidding ! Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:03:46 +0000 From: boxcar46@nfdc.net Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276: Brass I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: Brass Alco PA / PB PRR by Westside Model Co Seller: boxcar46@nfdc.net Starts: 09/20/98 10:02:08 PDT Ends: 09/27/98 10:02:08 PDT Price: Starts at $10.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=31364276 Item Description: Brass Alco PA/PB- Powered PA / Dummy PB, PRR Tuscan Red 5 strip scheme, Factory Painted ,Original Box, K/D couplers installed, about 3-4 hrs running time, Beautiful engine for pulling that special passenger train. Please add 5.00 US to cover postage and insurance in the USA. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:35:37 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Division questiond ---Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > On 17 Sep, robert netzlof wrote: > > > q3: In Winchester, Va I came on two listings like > > "J. R. Ewing Co. - Plug Track". What means it "plug > > track"? > > I might guess it to be a water plug (a hydrant instead of a > tank) for steamers, but that's a WAG. Well, that was my first guess, but I rejected it because: 1) There are 2 of them right next to each other and 2) There's a company name (not J R Ewing, but something) associated with each (2 different companies). Each entry is marked with a little dingbat which means "for individual use". So it seems this is the "J R Ewing plug track, for his use", not something for the PRR's use. The same two companies have entries nearby (nearby along the railroad) like "J. R. Ewing Co. - Trestle" which didn't bother me as much as "plug track" but maybe the combination "trestle" and "plug track" will ring a bell somewhere. Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] SEPTA jobs Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:23:52 -0400 Sorry for getting a bit off the subject of the PRR, but does SEPTA give out summer jobs?? More specificly, summer jobs to 16 year olds? -Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:36:35 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] SEPTA jobs Thomas K. Trower wrote: > > Sorry for getting a bit off the subject of the PRR, but does SEPTA give out summer jobs?? More specificly, summer jobs to 16 year olds? > > -Josh Trower Sorry to bring disappointing news, Josh, but it's illegal in the state of Pennsylvania for railroads to hire 16-year-olds. Not that I haven't seen them working on tourist lines, but it *is* against the law, because railroads are considered to be -- and are -- heavy industry. Dan Cupper dan@mci2000.com 1 John 1:9 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:41:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276: Brass Why don't you just say you had just listed them on EBAY instead of seeing them. Who are you trying to fool boxcar46@nfdc.net on 09/20/98 08:03:46 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276: Brass Alco PA / PB PRR by Westside Model Co I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: Brass Alco PA / PB PRR by Westside Model Co Seller: boxcar46@nfdc.net Starts: 09/20/98 10:02:08 PDT Ends: 09/27/98 10:02:08 PDT Price: Starts at $10.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=31364276 Item Description: Brass Alco PA/PB- Powered PA / Dummy PB, PRR Tuscan Red 5 strip scheme, Factory Painted ,Original Box, K/D couplers installed, about 3-4 hrs running time, Beautiful engine for pulling that special passenger train. Please add 5.00 US to cover postage and insurance in the USA. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:44:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276: Brass On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > Why don't you just say you had just listed them on EBAY instead of seeing > them. Who are you trying to fool That's what happens (automatically) when you use "send this auction to..." or whatever it's called. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:30:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276: On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > I have seen it on the railroadana talk like that. I dont mind it being on > here. Just dont say I happened to see this on EBAY when they were the one > who was posting it. No, you don't get it. The magic link takes an email address, and sends that (what you don't like) as the text by itself. You don't get to choose. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:33:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276: I have seen it on the railroadana talk like that. I dont mind it being on here. Just dont say I happened to see this on EBAY when they were the one who was posting it. Derrick J Brashear on 09/20/98 02:44:47 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276: Brass Alco PA / PB PRR by Westside Model Co On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > Why don't you just say you had just listed them on EBAY instead of seeing > them. Who are you trying to fool That's what happens (automatically) when you use "send this auction to..." or whatever it's called. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:00:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] K-3 and the EBT Greetings to the group! After 7 years of searching today I found a new Cary K-3 boiler complete with smokebox front, ect. at the Edinboro, Pa RR flea market. This one must be the last on left in the known universe! I have needed a K-3 to model PRR trains 415/474 known as the Erie Pittsburgh Express. It ran until sometime in 1948 on the E&A Division. Is anyone from the group planning to attend the EBT Fall Spectacular the second weekend in October? From my experience, it's as good as it gets for steam fans in Pa. Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:34:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 roof walks. In a message dated 9/19/98 6:01:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ELM2 writes: << The N-8 running board is much like the Apex, USG Weldforged, Blaw Knox product (an open rectangle). Taking things just a bit further it would apper the N-8s steps are also constructed using this same material. Ed Martin >> Ed, Hank Hummert agrees. I've already got the Plano footwalk stock (for some H30 and H32 open hoppers under construction.) Thanks for the observation about the steps. That'll be another improvement over the MM article. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:22:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] K-3 and the EBT On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Paintloco@aol.com wrote: > Is anyone from the group planning to attend the EBT Fall Spectacular the > second weekend in October? From my experience, it's as good as it gets for > steam fans in Pa. Currently I expect I will be there Sunday -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:17:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR SD-7's & 9's Model Railroading has an excellent article on the early SD units this month. In the article they show a picture of an SD-9 with the trainphone antenna. The article says that three known units had this arraingment, # 6903, # 6901, and # 6905. I was under the impression that these units were all in yard service, does anyone know the story behind these unusual units? Thanks Todd Horton Modeling the PRR in Dixie! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:27:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] EBT > Is anyone from the group planning to attend the EBT Fall Spectacular the > second weekend in October? From my experience, it's as good as it gets for > steam fans in Pa. Greetings all, Yes, I plan to be at EBT for fall spectacular. People from the PRR group meeting anywhere this weekend? Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:15:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276:Brass In a message dated 9/20/98 2:40:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276:Brass Alco PA / PB Date: 9/20/98 2:40:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG (Derrick J Brashear) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > I have seen it on the railroadana talk like that. I dont mind it being on > here. Just dont say I happened to see this on EBAY when they were the one > who was posting it. No, you don't get it. The magic link takes an email address, and sends that (what you don't like) as the text by itself. You don't get to choose. -D >> ***Hi, D....ummm, i beg to differ....there is a space below / after the "boilerplate" where a personal massage can be typed, right after their wording.....Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:44:20 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Gas Electrics,Modeling,And is this normal? Hi You All... I'll start this off with a question about Gas Electrics... I have a undecorated Bachmann Gas Electric that i'm bashing from a EMC car to more of a PRR/Brill type of car. One of the cars i'm trying to copy is 4657... This car has a lower roof than say car 4666...I have some good photos of the type of car that 4666 is,and of the vestible end and roof of the type that 4657 is...but i don't have any pictures of the motor end of the type that 4657 is... (there is a difference) I think one is a GEW250 class car and the other is a GEW350 class(not sure) anyway is the motor end of a 4666 type car like one on 4657's type? If it is then i can go by the motor end photos i have of 4666 and kin...If not then i have to find one somewhere... Anyone know? Next... I come to find that when you have a large number of models on your roster in another way we are also modeling the prototype... With all the cars and engines i have i am constantly upgrading, rebuilding,repainting and modifing my humble fleet. It is a well known fact that Pennsy did the same over the years... So in a way as i do this to my model fleet i'm also doing as the Pennsy did.... Kinda neat to think about... Now on another note... As some of you all know...I model the Pennsy's Northern Central between 1946 and 1954...Below is a Roster of my fleet of equipment. Steam Engines 16 Diesel Engines 9 Electric Engines 2 total...27 of these 2 are off road engines (W.M. and Ma & Pa) Freight cars..... Boxcars 21 Flat cars 5 Tank cars 3 Hoppers 20 Stock cars 3 Gondolas 6 Reefers 10 ExpressBox 4 Cov. hoppr 1 Ore jenny 2 total...65 of these 35 are off road cars Cabin cars 12 of these 1 (Ma & Pa) is a off road car Passenger cars... Express reefers 4 Baggage cars 4 RPO cars 5 Combine cars 3 MPB-70 type combine car 1 Business cars 4 Coaches (mostly P-70) 17 Dining cars 3 Pullmans 5 Diner parlor 1 Strm lined obs 1 P-54 coach 2 P-54 combine 1 Gas electric 1 total........52 of these 3 (W.M. and N & W) are off road cars Now given when,where and what i model is this normal? This is all my own..i'm a "lone wolf" Just curious if this is typical. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:33:43 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: [PRR] Re: Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard PRR-Talk wrote: > One more piece of Lines West trivia: when Chicago's first Union Station was > built (approximately where the present one is), the Panhandle passenger trains > accessed it by running north past 59th Street yard, way on north until they > turned east and ran along the south side of the C&NW coming in from the west. > Finally, close to Northwestern Station, the Panhandle tracks turned south > and came in the NORTH end of Union Station like the Milwaukee did. If anyone is interested, I have "unofficial" maps of this line posted on my Penn Central web site. (I say "unofficial" because these are field drawings from the railroad archeology duo John Donoian and Shawn O'Day, and are not official railroad drawings.) Nevertheless, you may find them useful for tracing this part of the Panhandle. The maps cover from Chicago Union Station to 12th Street Interlocking, and can be found at http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/pc/maps/diagrams.html (scroll down toward the bottom of the page to find the Panhandle drawings). -JWJ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Any Dupes? Date: Mon, 21 Sep 98 08:01:35 -0400 From: Jerry Not to beat a dead horse, but... Has any one been receiving duplicate posts from "PRR-Talk" SINCE the Internet Service Provider changeover late last week? In other words, anyone recieve dupes that were sent AFTER, say, 9/19? I especially want to hear from those who were receiving duplicates. Please reply direct and not to the list. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:47:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276:Brass On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > ***Hi, D....ummm, i beg to differ....there is a space below / after the > "boilerplate" where a personal massage can be typed, right after their > wording.....Bill*** Ok, so they musta fixed it. Sue me:-P (It used to be that you could send that, period) -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 05:23:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276:Brass Bill, Thanks. I thought there was another way to send that message out. I am not complaining about the message. Just the wording of it. It sounds like they just happened upon it. The railroadana list also just had a complaint about the same thing. Randy PRRSignals@aol.com on 09/20/98 10:15:28 PM To: shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG, PRR-talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276:Brass Alco PA / PB In a message dated 9/20/98 2:40:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#31364276:Brass Alco PA / PB Date: 9/20/98 2:40:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG (Derrick J Brashear) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > I have seen it on the railroadana talk like that. I dont mind it being on > here. Just dont say I happened to see this on EBAY when they were the one > who was posting it. No, you don't get it. The magic link takes an email address, and sends that (what you don't like) as the text by itself. You don't get to choose. -D >> ***Hi, D....ummm, i beg to differ....there is a space below / after the "boilerplate" where a personal massage can be typed, right after their wording.....Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:11:19 -0500 From: Bob Poortinga Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard Jerry Jordak reports: > If anyone is interested, I have "unofficial" maps of this line posted > on my Penn Central web site. (I say "unofficial" because these are > field drawings from the railroad archeology duo John Donoian and Shawn > O'Day, and are not official railroad drawings.) Nevertheless, you may > find them useful for tracing this part of the Panhandle. The maps cover > from Chicago Union Station to 12th Street Interlocking, and can be found > at http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/pc/maps/diagrams.html (scroll down toward > the bottom of the page to find the Panhandle drawings). I have a copy of an "official" 1950 track map of the Panhandle from Bernice (Lansing) IL to CUS. As soon as I can find time, I will scan them and post them on my web site if there is any interest. I also have 1950 track maps of most the mainline from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh and the PFW&C from Pittsburgh to Chicago. I have been planning on putting these on my web site for some time now, but with family and work, I never seem to have the time. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GLD828@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:29:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power 1 If anybody is looking for Pennsy Power 1 - I seen a new copy still on the hobby shop shelf - still in shrink wrap for $50 If your interested let me know & I will relay the hobby shop info Thanks Glen ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:03:55 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Hoss' Dinner List as of 9/21/98 Greetings to the groups, Here is a list of those that have indicated that they will be at Hoss's for dinner at 7 PM on Saturday, October 3, 1998. We're up to 20. If I have missed anyone, please let me know. If you are planning to attend the dinner, please let me know that also. If Hoss's has an accurate number of people to plan for, they should not have any problems sitting us together. Thanks Carl for your list. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA Drew McGhee Carl Haslett Karen Haslett Thomas Haslett Patricia Haslett Erik Seidelmann Norm Seidelmann Harold McGee Robert Strain David Gnuse Jerry Britton Ashley Britton Rich Ader Jennie Ader Rob Schoenberg Paul Tupaczewski Derrick J Brashear Neal Campbell Mike Wingard David Wingard ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power 1 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 98 11:40:02 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/21/98 11:29 AM, GLD828@aol.com (GLD828@aol.com) wrote: >If anybody is looking for Pennsy Power 1 - I seen a new copy still on the >hobby shop shelf - still in shrink wrap for $50 Pennsy Power I was recently reprinted...up to the 18th edition or some such thing. The author, Al Stauffer, was selling them at the PRRT&HS Convention last April, where I picked up a new, shrink-wrapped copy for $35! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: American Model Builders Date: Mon, 21 Sep 98 15:59:39 -0400 From: Jerry Just a few more days left in the American Model Builders sale (20% off). See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ Proceeds benefit operation of the list and "Keystone Crossings". Thank you much! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:23:15 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re:Gas Electrics,Modeling,And is this normal? Hello Hank, > Engines > total...27 of these 2 are off road engines (W.M. and Ma & Pa) > > Freight cars..... > total...65 of these 35 are off road cars > > Cabin cars 12 of these 1 (Ma & Pa) is a off road car > > Passenger cars... > total........52 of these 3 (W.M. and N & W) are off road cars > > Now given when,where and what i model is this normal? > This is all my own..i'm a "lone wolf" Just curious if this is > typical. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert ===== Well, let's see: according to the last MR reader survey, the average ownership is: 14 steam 17 diesel (nothing mentioned about electrics) 8-( 23 passenger 99 freight Seeing that the average is about 4/1 freight to passenger, I'd say your ratio of 65/52 says you show promise. Of course, if you got rid of all those pesky box cars, your passenger traffic would move that much better. Just ask Amtrak. Regards, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:13:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] IS THIS NORMAL? Hank, I read your interesting question on your equipment roster for your Northern Central layout. The Buffalo-Baltimore segment of the Pennsy , and it's diverging lines, have always been some of my favorites. I don't know which part you're modeling, but you did mention 1946-54 I think and I may have some helpful notes. I have a 1951 statistical handbook of class one roads which puts it right in the middle of your period. Here's some data on Pennsy ownership at that time: steam engines-2356 diesils-1175 electric-267 gas-electric-2 rail motor,electric-498 rail motor,gas or diesil-23, motor trailers-46 coach-1849, combine 276, parlor 1, sleeper 14, diner 253, club 3, postal(RPO)251, other head end 2261. obviously sleepers and parlors are considered Pullman owned, not Pennsy. Total passenger=5475. box cars-64432, flat 3381, stock 2273, gon and hopper 119136, cabins 2268. Total freight cars=191,490. Also listed are 5475 company service cars, 48 steamboats and tugs, 303 barges and floats and 6 other floating equipment.These figures are based on 1950 , based on reports to the ICC and AAR's bureau of railway economics. Hope this is some help in the balance you want for your roster. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:02:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] Attn: Lines West / Indianapolis Union Station Schedule I recently purchased Schedule 585 beginning Sunday. September 26, 1954. Schedule shows 40 trains. I can post it to the list if there is enough interest. If not then to individual inquiries. (I lived in Indy for 18 years) Harold Modeling the Middle Division from Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:00:10 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Gas Electrics,Modeling,And is this normal? Aloha, Well I have always known I wasn't normal but where did my response to the survey go: my collection consists of 3 G's, a B1, a R1. a P5 modified, an E60, an EF15, one steam 3 Diesels. Considering the size of my apartment I have gridlock on my module. If I count kits there is about 4 freights to one passenger, if I count finished cars the number is the other way around. At 03:23 PM 9/21/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hello Hank, > >> Engines >> total...27 of these 2 are off road engines (W.M. and Ma & Pa) >> >> Freight cars..... >> total...65 of these 35 are off road cars >> >> Cabin cars 12 of these 1 (Ma & Pa) is a off road car >> >> Passenger cars... >> total........52 of these 3 (W.M. and N & W) are off road cars >> >> Now given when,where and what i model is this normal? >> This is all my own..i'm a "lone wolf" Just curious if this is >> typical. >> >> Til Later >> Hank Mummert >===== > >Well, let's see: according to the last MR reader survey, the average >ownership is: > >14 steam >17 diesel >(nothing mentioned about electrics) 8-( > >23 passenger >99 freight > >Seeing that the average is about 4/1 freight to passenger, I'd say your >ratio of 65/52 says you show promise. Of course, if you got rid of all >those pesky box cars, your passenger traffic would move that much better. >Just ask Amtrak. > >Regards, > >Bob > > >Robert A. Boyd > >======== >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > >"The Limited" On Line >http://www.thoseclassictrains.com >======== > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:50:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SD-7's & 9's To All, These units served "the largest push button yard in the world" (at the time) Pennsylvania Railroad's Conway Yard during the late 1960s. Yes friend's that is a Lines West yard! Ed Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] PRR horseshoe glass picture Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:14:12 -0700 Thanks to all who responded to my request. I certainly have hope now to find one for my mother. I know it would really surprise her if I got one for her. I live in So California but am planning a two week visit to Pennsylvania in mid - october. I am going to visit the museums at Strausburg, Altoona and Scranton. I'll check out the antique shops in those areas. If anyone should happen to run across one in the mean time, would you please send me the phone number of the shop in which you find it. I'll try to reserve it by credit card until I get there. Thanks again to all, Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Renovo Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:12:57 -0700 I have periodically requested information or photos on Renovo. A recent response has made me think I should clarify my reason for such request. So here goes: I am a member of the PRRT&HS who has family now living near Renovo. Most of my life I traveled to Renovo area to go trout fishing with my Dad and brother. I lived near there for a brief time. Renovo is unique in that because of its location it was almost purely a railroad town. This same factor has allowed it to be almost untouched since the PC abandoned her. Much of the buildings still stand. I have tried local research and found that the history of these once great yards is nearly lost. I am attempting to compile a historic portfolio of the yards there. Through photos and conversation with locals and others I am trying to compile as much as I can about Renovo yards history, I often feel like a dog begging for scraps. Many people think that there photos are not of much and won't help. Surprisingly I find a lot of detail and answers from objects in photos that are not usually the focus of the shot. That is why I am asking anyone and everyone for there help in looking through their photos of Renovo. Anything even out of focus photos can be helpful. Especially helpful are people who once worked there. I appreciate everyone's help and those who can't help your patience and tolerance. Thanks, Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] New Mailing list dedicated to Scratch-building, molding, Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:06:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BDE5AC.2029FC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all! I've just gone and done it! I've created a mailing list on = OneList.com dedicated to discussing all aspects of scratch-building, = molding, and casting. If you're interested, please visit the website at = http://mc.cyklone.com/castlist for more information. P.S. This is a = personal project, not a project of Miracle Castings, although I threw = some photos of the Shark on there (since I built it). The list is = growing like crazy. In three days, we've added 40 subscribers. Hope to = see you there! Pat Lawless ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BDE5AC.2029FC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all!  I've just gone and done it! I've = created a=20 mailing list on OneList.com dedicated to discussing all aspects of=20 scratch-building, molding, and casting.  If you're interested, = please visit=20 the website at http://mc.cyklone.com/castlist =20 for more information.  P.S. This is a personal project, not a = project of=20 Miracle Castings, although I threw some photos of the Shark on there = (since I=20 built it).  The list is growing like crazy.  In three days, = we've=20 added 40 subscribers.  Hope to see you there!
 
Pat Lawless
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BDE5AC.2029FC40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: [PRR] RE: Wavac, Kochels, other toys Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:41:07 -0400 Jim, Thank you for your informative email. I am very impressed with your description of the Wavac's sonic signature (and, I am pleased since I prefer transparency to a midrange lushness). In the near future I'll give you a call regarding the Wavac HE-833 amps. Regarding the Kochels, Classics and Avantgardes, the "jury is still out." It's late at night so I'm going to cut this short for now. I think it would be best for me to give you a call late next week. Until then, have a great day! By the way, you mentioned that the Kochels' subwoofers will be, and I quote: "an active sub, ~ 2cubic ft enclosure to provide the bottom octave." Question: will these subs be horn loaded as the current Kochels bass is horn loaded? And, would non-horn Kochel subwoofers have the same problem that the Avantgarde's bass drivers experience: poor integration with the rest of the horn elements? Being a vinyl person I hope that the Wavac's accompanying phono stage to the PR-X1 linestage is transparent like the linestage -- anyhow, it's late and I'm fading -- I'll call you in the near future. Thank you very much for all of your help! Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim R Ricketts [mailto:tmh-audio@juno.com] > Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 7:17 AM > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > Subject: Re: Wavac, Kochels, other toys > > > HI Greg, > Thank you very much for the kind words as i very much appreciate your > comments. Although, this is a business, I feel very fortunate to import > products I personally would have in my reference system. Also, part of my > challenge is to educate consumers and dealers and let their ears make the > final decision. I am quite confident what the result will be. Greg, part > of the mission of tmh audio is to find high quality musical components > and we feel we are certainly on that path. > > Re: the "cary-ish" sound, first, Dennis should be congratulated for > introducing and promoting SE amps in US market. He, more than anyone > else, is responsible for thr the growing acceptance here. The Cary SE > amps share a sonic signature of a warm, lush midrange but with a soft top > and bottom and dark-ish overall tonal balance. It can easily captivate > one upon initial listening but after awhile, I find it to be slow and > somewhat uninvolving, relatively speaking compared to push-pull designs. > Before I began importing, I retailed Cary and other SE amps. I am > intimately familiar with the sound. Actually, the 300-sei was the best > sounding and the 805 certainly the most powerful albeit a bit darker than > the integrated but better bass due to the HUGE transformers and caps. > This is the sonics I heard in LA from the new amp, and, as I mentioned a > very warm, appealing mid. > > The Wavacs are much different. Utilizing Nobu's ingenious Interstage > Transformer coupling circuit, the SE amps eliminate the sonic detriments > of capacitors in the signal path. Cary prefers the oil caps which are > very lush and smooth but transfers the cap sound into what we hear. The > Wavacs, by comparison, are much more clear and transparent and revealing > of low level details. Also, by being direct coupled with no caps, the > bass is deeper, MUCH faster and tighter vs. the Cary. > > Transformers play a VERY important part in the overall sonics. The Cary > uses good trannies to provide a bandwidth to ~ 25khz. The Wavac high > series (HE and EC) utilize TANGO trannies, recognized as the best. The > HE-833 and EC-300b are flat 20-100khz! This is heard in a much more open > and extended top end and the purity is absolutely breathtaking! Even the > the entry level $4k MD-811 is flat to 50khz. > > In summary re: the Wavac sound, I would describe as being > - Clear, open and transparent > - VERY good low level resolution due to the very low noise floor and > direct coupled circuit which eliminates caps in signal path > - Strong, tight, powerful bass with excellent transient definention, > again due in part to the direct coupling and VERY high quality trannies > - VERY fast transients, no smearing for a very lively and exciting sound > - A HUGE reduction in distortion vs. other SE amps resulting in a > breathtaking harmonic purity. I immediately noticed this attribute upon > my first Wavac listen. It is extraordinary!!! Harvey Rosenberg wrote > about this quality in the Glass Audio article I sent you. > - re; soundstaging, very open and precise location of instruments and > voices, especially with the HE-833's. > -Tonally, quite neutral and open > -aesthetics, well look at the picture and imagine even more inspiring! > The other designers at the Philly show were drooling! > > Re: Köchels at Philly, that was not an optimal showcase for a couplke of > reasons: > 1. We had ~ 2 minutes to setup > 2. The room was huge, ~ 50x50 (actually, it was a ball room at the > hotel). The Classic speakers have ~ 2-3x the surface area and was better > qualified to fill the "theater". Sonically, they did a good job, no > question, but a bit more ragged than the Köchels on overall sonics. I > note Anna Logg commented on the very nice midrange of the Köchels, even > in this setup and prevailing condition. > > re: bass, I agree with Anna the bass in the Köchels did not develop at > the Philly show. Please note we did not experience a lack of bass at > HiFi98 in LA. Also, I have strong, fast and tight bass with incredible > transient definition here in this system. A Köchel owner, Dr. Mark > Senior, is using a 3-watt SE amp monos and also has similar strong bass > performance. I think I provided Mark's email address for your use to > contact for additional comments. Overall, the perception is bass to ~ > 40hz, as the Köchels provide VERY high quality, clean bass bit powerful > enough to "feel" the pressure in your chest! BTW, the bass driver is so > fast, you can't see it move! > > Re: Avantguarde trios, I have not heard but have auditioned the Duo's > with Audio Note 300B SE amp. I found the sound to be very dynamic > (typical of horns) but agressive, bright and ragged and overall not as > refined as the Köchels which sounds akin to the Wavacs with very low > distortion. A Köchel owner in california, Bob Figlio, has auditioned many > horns including the Trios, and feels the Köcherls are the best horn and > also one of the best speakers available regardless of cost or design. > > Other aspects of the Avantguardes is the beaming quality they possess and > the large distance from the listener required to properly integrate all > of the drivers, usually a minimum of 12 ft or more. The Köchels do quite > well just 7-8 ft from listener. > > Re: bass, the Köchel bass easily matched the bass of the Duos I heard, > but actually integrates better being horn loaded and part of the design. > The Duo woofer, I think, is actively powered and less integrated than > köchels. As you mentioned, PY is finalizing an active sub, ~ 2cubic ft > enclosure to provide the bottom octave. > > Also, as I mentioned previously, the new Wavac tube linestage (PR-X1) is > extraordinary as it encompasses the "Wavac" sound. The final production > unit is much more pleasing aesthetically than the picture as it is simply > gorgeous but the sonics are breathtaking!!! I guess you can tell I am > very impressed with this component! > > Greg, I hope I have not been toooo winded in this email. Again, thanks > for your comments and I hope this provides additional insight for you. > > Best Regards, > > Jim > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis F. Cramer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Renovo Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 06:26:37 -0400 Greg, Something that I found to help is to write a series of articles for the local newspaper with a short aside as to your interest in this important historical project. Have you considered doing a small pamphlet as a reason for the research and make it available through the local historical society? Be patient, but give people a reason to share their momentos. I have been there and a first it is very frustrating, but working in a small town is often easier once people know what you are doing and the historical significance. DFCramer--Teacher,Trombonist, Historian, Conductor dfc1@alltel.net Come Play With Us, Come Hear Us Play http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652 ---------- > From: Greg Stone > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Renovo > Date: Monday, September 21, 1998 9:12 PM > > I have periodically requested information or photos on Renovo. A recent > response has made me think I should clarify my reason for such request. So > here goes: > I am a member of the PRRT&HS who has family now living near Renovo. Most of > my life I traveled to Renovo area to go trout fishing with my Dad and > brother. I lived near there for a brief time. > Renovo is unique in that because of its location it was almost purely a > railroad town. This same factor has allowed it to be almost untouched since > the PC abandoned her. Much of the buildings still stand. I have tried local > research and found that the history of these once great yards is nearly > lost. I am attempting to compile a historic portfolio of the yards there. > Through photos and conversation with locals and others I am trying to > compile as much as I can about Renovo yards history, I often feel like a dog > begging for scraps. Many people think that there photos are not of much and > won't help. Surprisingly I find a lot of detail and answers from objects in > photos that are not usually the focus of the shot. That is why I am asking > anyone and everyone for there help in looking through their photos of > Renovo. Anything even out of focus photos can be helpful. Especially helpful > are people who once worked there. > I appreciate everyone's help and those who can't help your patience and > tolerance. > Thanks, > Greg > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 9:18:12 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] New Mailing list dedicated to Scratch-building, molding, Date: 09/22/1998 09:13 am (Tuesday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] New Mailing list dedicated to Scratch-building, molding, and Casting -Reply Although I can access Miracle Castings at http://mc.cyklone.com when I try to reach the information on the list at http//mc.cyklone.com/castlist I get a message that the requested URL is not found on that server. >>> Pat Lawless PRR-Talk@dsop.com 09/21/98 09:06pm wrote >>> >>>Hi all! I've just gone and done it! I've created a mailing list on OneList.com dedicated to discussing all aspects of scratch-building, molding, and casting. If you're interested, please visit the website at http://mc.cyklone.com/castlist for more information. P.S. This is a personal project, not a project of Miracle Castings, although I threw some photos of the Shark on there (since I built it). The list is growing like crazy. In three days, we've added 40 subscribers. Hope to see you there! Pat Lawless <<< ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] RE: Casting and Molding List Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:41:51 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BDE61D.FD108400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry guys, but I screwed up. The URL for the site is = http://mc.cyklone.com/castlist.htm Hope to see you there! Pat ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BDE61D.FD108400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry guys, but I screwed up.  = The URL for=20 the site is http://mc.cyklone.com/castlis= t.htm
 
Hope to see you there!
 
Pat
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BDE61D.FD108400-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:43:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] [rrdiana] RR books FS This was listed on the rrdiana-talk. I thought some of the books might be of interest to Pennsy fans. ---------------------- Forwarded by Randy Williamson/Marathon on 09/22/98 10:29 AM --------------------------- Wilgramps@aol.com on 09/22/98 09:35:33 AM To: rrdiana@railnet.nshore.org cc: JWeil23639@aol.com, hogr6683@earthlink.net, pitschni@hotmail.com, Eddie_Warren@notes.up.com (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [rrdiana] RR books FS More estate books for sale plus a listing of new books on hand. Buyer pays shipping, inquiries are welcomed, and sales are final. Contact Dick Wilson at wilgramps@aol.com [paperbacks] BIG BOY by Kratville (1972), 96pp, EX. This is a tribute to a "King" that ruled the Wahsatch Mts. & the high plains of Wyo. for nearly two score years- Big Boy. $15 DESCRIPTIVE LIST OF LOCOMOTIVES & TENDERS-THE PRR & LIRR, MAY 1948 by Doug Warnom (1948), 50+pp, Ex-. This includes steam-electric-diesel electric and gasoline-electric locomotives. $12.00 NARROW GAUGE-THEN & NOW by Huxtable & Gildersleeve (1993), 48pp, EX. Includes 1950's through present Durango & Silverton and Cumbres & Toltec. $14 NORFOLK & WESTERN STEAM-THE LAST 25 YEARS by Rosenberg & Archer (1973), 93pp, EX. The N&W's unusual dedication and continued faith gave railfans one final chance to see steam at work on a major trunk-line RR in the 60's. $14 [hardbacks] THE BESSEMBER & LAKE ERIE RR 1869-1969 by Beaver (1969), 184pp, EX. This is a centennial story with more than 180 illustrations of a heavy tonnage RR operating between the Pittsburgh industrial area and the Lake Erie ports. $32.00 CANADIAN STEAM, Ed. David Morgan (1964), EX. A portfolio of memorable photos of CN and CP locomotives in full stride. $19.00 CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY by Dorin (1974), 175pp, EX. Contains a capsule history with motive power and rolling stock. $19.00 COLORADO RAIL ANNUAL #15, Ed. Cornelius Hauck (1981), 216pp, Ex-. The story of the 1st RR to breach the remote mining frontiers of Idaho & western Montana--the narrow gauge Utah and Northern. $25.00. (THE) LAKE SUPERIOR IRON ORE RR'S by Dorin (1969), 144pp, EX. This book describes the iron ore hauling RR's of the Lake Superior region. $19.00. MOTIVE POWER OF THE UNION PACIFIC by Kratville & Ranks (1966), 152pp, EX. No effort was spared in preparing this complete and accurate story of the UP's motive power from Gen. Sherman (#1) to the GE U28C (#2807) in 1966. $48.00. PENNSY POWER by Staufer (1962), 320pp, EX. Steam and electric locomotives of the PRR 1900-1957. $29.00. PENNSY POWER II by Staufer (1968), 352pp, EX. Steam, diesel and electric locomotives of the PRR farewell. $32.00. (THE) SANTA FE'S BIG 3 by Kip Farrington, Jr. (1972), 287pp, Ex-. An affectionate biography of 3 engine classes from birth thru their long and eventual careers. $39 SOME CLASSIC TRAINS by Dubin (1970), 434pp, EX. Some classic trains era chronicles with 1000's of words of informed comment and captions w/more than 1300 illustrations w/foldouts. A real classic at $46.00. (THE) SOUTH PARK LINE: A CONCISE HISTORY. COLORADO RAIL ANNUAL #12, Ed. Cornelius Hauck, 280pp, VG+. The complete story of the C&S's famed South Park narrow gauge is in this carefully researched book with some 350 rare photos. $25.00. THOSE DAYLIGHT 4-8-4'S by Church (1966), 120pp, EX. The story of Southern Pacific's GS class locomotives with foldouts. $38.00. SUGAR COUNTRY SHORTLINE by Fox (1989), 64pp, EX. Fox takes us thru a day with a 2-man crew as they provide on-demand service to their customers between Loveland and Longmont, Colorado. $22.00. [new RR texts] BURLINGTON ROUTE DEPOT LIFE {paperback} by Hadcock. $14.00. HIGH IRON TO NORTH PLATTE {paperback} by Stensvad. $20.00 HUB OF THE BURLINGTON LINES WEST. $55.00 KEARNEY AND BLACKHILLS: A HIST BRANCH OF THE UPRR. Gschwind. $55 MISSOURI PACIFIC RIVER & PRAIRIE TRAILS; MP IN NE. Bartels. $55.00 MISSOURI-KANSAS-TEXAS LINES IN COLOR by George. $37.00. ROCK ISLAND IN COLOR, VOL II. by Marvel. $37.00. THE CORN BELT ROUTE: HISTORY CGW by Grant. $32.00. THE IOWA RAILFAN GUIDE {paperback} by Grefe. $20.00 THE NORTHWESTERN: A HISTORY OF THE C&NW RY SYSTEM by Grant. $46 THE RUN OF THE GE'S-FINAL CNW MOTIVE ROSTER {paperback} by CNWHS. $19.00. U.P. COLOR GUIDE TO FRT & PSGR EQUIPT. VOL I. Yanosey. $37.00. UNION PACIFIC OFFICIAL COLOR PHOTOGRAPHY, BOOK 1. Yanosey. $37.00 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 98 16:27:00 CST Subject: Re: [PRR] K-3 and the EBT Hi, Everyone, >Is there any gathering of the list at the EBT? Yeh, I'll going to see if I can get my wife to print out some simple labels with something like "DO YOU PRR.TALK?" or some such nonsense. I can't swear that I'll get this done but if I do, I will leave it at the registration table for Saturday. I only plan to take one train ride and just watch and photograph after that so let's keep a lookout for one another. PRR (and the EBT) forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] septa block towers Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:32:09 -0400 How many block towers does SEPTA still have in operation? Thanks. -Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] E- mail JERRY Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:37:52 -0700 Jerry, I rarely get a single repeat now whereas before I would get 6 to 10 of the same message. Another wierd thing is that I get responses to my messages sometimes a day or two before I see them posted. Do you know how that happens? By the way thanks for hosting this page, I really appreciate the hard work you put into it. --Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:19:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] L I R R..MUs ***Hi, John...I am way, way behind here...LIRR did run mp54's..."standard" ...ahem... design...also mp41's earlier...MU whistle similar, if not same...see if any real lirr fan can help..bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:00:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] SEPTA Towers for Trower ***sorry for the delay, Josh....although I do not directly get SEPTA material, at last count these towers were in existence...clarifications welcome from Philly Pholks... WAYNE JCT, also WIND controlled there... MARK(et East) BROAD....may have been remoted by now.....??? A - at jct Airport Line and CSXT....block house type = low building, like COUNTY. I'll ask about Media and Chestnut Hill....on the branches. I am talking about 'pure' SEPTA towers, not the Amtrak towers that also control SEPTA moves ( ZOO, Paoli, etc). Speaking of ZOO, there was lots of activity two weekends ago as many transit / septa trains were terminated outside of the city for cut-overs occurring at ZOO. The layout is changing as per plans....CETC may finally get the River Line portion. The rest of the plant...for SEPTA and CR...???........More if I get a chance...Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:52:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] accurate track diagrams for altoona, pa hi all. im new to the list. id like to know if any of you know where i can find track diagrams of the track between what is now CP-slope and CP-antis in altoona, pa. i checked the conrail timetable, but its wrong when compared to my photos of the track at CP-alto, so id imagine the entire thing is wrong. i heard that the PRR put out a lot of track diagrams, but i dont know where to find them. thanks in advance for your help, sean mcdonnell ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:30:38 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Hoss' Dinner List as of 9/23/98 Greetings to the groups, Here is a list of those that have indicated that they will be at Hoss's for dinner at 7 PM on Saturday, October 3, 1998. We're up to 23 "for sures" and one "definite maybe". The ones without the '>' are the newest ones to the list. If I have missed anyone, please let me know. If you are planning to attend the dinner, please let me know that also. If Hoss's has an accurate number of people to plan for, they should not have any problems sitting us together. Since I'll be out of the office for the rest of the week, I'll put the next update on the lists Monday, September 27. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA Dan Cupper (unless tied up with museum stuff) Jerry Breon and guest Dennis Sautters >Drew McGhee > >Carl Haslett >Karen Haslett >Thomas Haslett >Patricia Haslett >Erik Seidelmann >Norm Seidelmann > >Harold McGee >Robert Strain > >David Gnuse > >Jerry Britton >Ashley Britton > >Rich Ader >Jennie Ader > >Rob Schoenberg >Paul Tupaczewski > >Derrick J Brashear > >Neal Campbell > >Mike Wingard >David Wingard ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:25:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: 4483 photos While I was visiting family in the Pittsburgh area this summer, I made a side trip to Hamburg, NY, to visit I-1 4483. I took two rolls of slides and two rolls of black and white, and video. Some are shots of the whole engine or tender, but I mostly took photos of piping details, the stoker details, the water scoop details, etc, to assist with modeling. The black and white prints were sent by the processor to the wrong store, and I just got the first of the two packages back yesterday. I am very pleased with the results - more pleased than with the slides. These B&W prints are going to be very helpful in my superdetailing efforts. If anyone would like copies of the prints, I will be happy to provide them at cost. I don't know exactly what the cost will be, as the price ($17 and change) of the first package includes processing, but I would guess around 20 cents each. There are two 36 shot rolls, so the cost would be about $15. If interested please e-mail me off line. I will get a better estimate before sending them off for processing and let interested parties know what the costs will be. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:49:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Patrick M Egan wrote: > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:56:03 EDT PRRSignals@aol.com writes: > > **wow...thx, Pat....could you possibly say if Western Avenue Tower ( > > B&OCTRR) is still standing, as that was the first US&S Type UR entrance > > exit route type interlocking..???!!! > Frank Cararro worked 3rd trick at Western on the CT for years. When the > tower came down, the maintainer saved the sign for Frank, who had at that > time a different job with CSX. > I didn't realize Western was the first NX, but I knew it was an older > one. Pat, which tower is this?? I had thought (perhaps incorrectly?) that "Western Ave." was the Pennsy name for what Milwaukee called "A-2". Or was there another? What was the location of the tower you describe above, relative to other PRR towers? > On the other hand, the next tower south, 49th St., where the B&OCT > and Panhandle crossed and continued on parallel to each other, had > probably the newest Armstrong interlocker in the country. A fire > sometime around WWII took out the original tower. A new brick tower was > built, and a new interlocking machine was shipped out from Baltimore. > The object was to use the existing pipes and the remainder of the > mechanical plant. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:27:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East Conway... On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > **I had put a request out awhile ago for info on East Conway...Thanks for all > responses.....................I meant PRR info, as always. > > Thanks anyway, Mark. I do have some PRR help "coming" I hope (Ed? Bob? etc). > For my new website, I wish it to be * pure * "PRRSignals"...Thx, Bill*** Not sure what you mean by "pure PRRSignals". The Conway map on my site is from a 1959 Employee Timetable. Still Pennsy, I figure ... :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:24:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR East Conway... **I had put a request out awhile ago for info on East Conway...Thanks for all responses.....................I meant PRR info, as always. Thanks anyway, Mark. I do have some PRR help "coming" I hope (Ed? Bob? etc). For my new website, I wish it to be * pure * "PRRSignals"...Thx, Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:54:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR signals On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Ben Kroger wrote: > I'm seeking a little guidance from those of you on the scene for a > prototype question. As I understand it, the distinctive PRR signals are > being gradually replaced with newer "stoplight" signals. Is there a > legal source for these signal heads? No, I don't want one for my train > room, but rather for a museum display to show the way the late great PRR > did it. You mean you want a PRR signal head? Indeed there is a legal source within Conrail, but I don't have his name immediately handy. I can find it for you, however. He's the "Asset Manager" or some such title. Rather a gruff man, to put it mildly. You better have your $5M liability policy paid up if you want him to give you the time of day. Wondering what it is that makes so many in RR management so surly, -- Mark D. Bej ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:18:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Panhandle status Drove out to Chicago and back recently, brief status report. Went to check out a signal on the former PRR Sandusky Branch, in Sandusky, that as of 4 years ago, still had a center lamp. This means it was never colorized by N&W. I saw it 4 years ago, but not lit :-( and couldn't wait around for it to light. I know N&W had a special instruction for it after the remainder of the system was colorized. The signal is now gone. Passed through Maple Grove, former site of a tower of the same name (Toledo main). Started my Panhandle trek at Piqua. Piqua still has a very nice bridge over the Great(?) Miami River, but no tracks. Bradford still has its (brick) tower standing. This is the place where the Panhandle (I'll use "PH") freight main split in two, with one line going northwest, directly to Logansport (and thence to Chicago), through no place of any significance; and a smaller line proceeding southwest toward Richmond, Indiana, ultimately to Indianapolis and St. Louis. An important junction, IOW. (Passenger trains ran through Dayton on a separate main.) A kiddie park is built at the east end of the junction and includes a PRR caboose. The Bradford--New Paris line has no more towers or any other structures that I could find. >From New Paris, the psgr and frt lines joined and proceeded to Indianapolis. I don't know the exact endpoints where this line is still in, as it was getting dark, but NS owns what is in, using it as their Cinci--Indianapolis line. The line runs past the nice, but unmaintained Richmond passenger station. This station is unfortunately slowly falling down, and has one of those plastic orange snow fences around it to keep the falling marble off peoples' heads. The line from Bradford to Indianapolis is all out, and I saw no towers. Here I shifted to the B&O line, which still has operational semaphore (!) signals. In/around Indianapolis, the PRR is not in at all, from what I could see, east of downtown. I was unable to get a definitive fix on the former Hawthorne Yard. Downtown Indi is amazingly Pennsy -- in terms of the (former) Pennsy "presence". I could understand Columbus, but I did not think that Indi would be so heavily "Pennsy" and so light on Big Four. But so it is -- or was. The Pennsy branch to Louisville, still in, joins here. IU tower stands but is now closed. >From here west, the Pennsy is in as far as the airport, though no towers stand. Some interlockings have been redone with color-light signals, masking their Pennsy heritage; others retain position lights for now. The PRR and NYC(CCC&StL) rights of way are not spitting distance from each other, as in South Chicago, but are definitely a stone's throw away from each other. The junction of the Vincennes Branch is a shadow of its former self. The PRR trackage then extends to the airport on the SW side of town, where it curves north. The area has been heavily regraded, masking the original RoW, which as best as I could make out continued south-southwest. This curve brings the old main onto the alignment of the I&F branch (Indi. to Logansport). There is a bridge over the Big Four and an interlocked junction. The relatively new Big Four Yard is just to the west. An eastbound train can run from the yard on the Big Four to this junction, then S on the PRR I&F Branch, then E on the PRR main, to IU; or straight east on the Big Four to IU. Why one would choose one over the other is beyond me. Having destroyed so much of the Pennsy, I don't understand why this smidgeon was kept. The I&F Branch is in and remains in Conrail all the way north to Frankfort, Indiana. Beyond there it's in and out, owned by local short lines. The occasional freight house remains standing. Logansport is still a reasonably sized junction town, albeit with much less traffic. Starting from the east, Anoka (sp?) Jct. tower is gone, and the PH freight main (which we last left at Bradford) is, expectedly, gone as well. The Richmond Branch is in and apparently owned by TPW. The next tower west, at the bridge, is gone, and this bridge is a deck structure, not terribly interesting. THe shops remain. PRR then proceeds through town, crossing the Wabash, to the former VAN tower on the west side. THis must have been some junction 20-30 years ago! Logansport in general had 7 ways to get into town on PRR. I've mentioned the 2 from the southeast already. At VAN, the I&F, still in, joins in from the south at a wye. It crossed the river on a beautiful truss bridge. (That's 3 routes.) The Effner Branch comes in from the west (that's 4). Right at VAN, the South Bend branch came in from the north, and just to the north, the Logansport Branch (IIRC) joined in from the northeast. (That's 6). The main to Chicago and the Effner Branch joined forces just to the west of VAN. What's left? Main to the east, already mentioned, TPW. Effner Branch to the west, obviously TPW too. I&F to the south, Eel Creek RR. Logansport itself has a little park downtown near the depot, with a signal bridge sitting there, turned 90 deg., all "prettied up" with extraneous stuff. (Junk, to a Pennsy fan. Tastefully done, but not RR related.) Main from Logansport is out, gone, nada from there to the southern suburbs of Chicago. In places, the RoW is obliterated, too, and lots of things have been built on it, from extensions of grain silos to houses. At DOLTON, south side of Chicago, the PH is in for about 0.2 miles, essentially providing a passing siding to the paralleling B&OCT main. A position-light signal remains at DOLTON, which is open for business. The IHB crosses here too. The PH is then out through most of southern Chicago, and towers are gone at WEST PULLMAN, BEVERLY, etc., where the PH crossed ICG, RI, B&OCT, and others. There seems to be much activity at the vicinity of 59th Street Yard. The area has recently been resignalled with C&O-style signals. From somewhere near there the PH is again in to and past BRIGHTON PARK tower, which is the greatest anachronism that Railroading Wisdom has deigned to bequeath to the 1990s. Unbelievable. GM&O crossed CR&I (CJ), B&OCT, and PH. No inter-locking per se. All trains (even Amtrak on GM&O) stop. Just to the north, ASH STREET is still in, PH crossing ICG, as ATSF is now out. North of there, getting dark, I proceeded straight to A-2 at Western Avenue. PH is now again _out_ to the south of this tower, but is _in_ to the east. Basically, the arrangement here is that the 4-track C&NW main crosses east to west. PH came in from the south and turned east, going from 3 tracks to 5 (now 0 to 4). MILW (3 tracks, formerly 4) crosses C&NW on double-slips and joins PH for run into CUS. PH is of course in the rest of the way to CUS, though not always obvious. THe signal bridges (which span the former total of *9* tracks -- scratchbuild THAT baby!) are typical Pennsy Lines West, but many position-light signals have been replaced. CUS trackage begins at the Clinton St. grade crossing and goes in from there. -- Mark D. Bej ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:39:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: FW: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard (fwd) Jon Roma asked me to post this for him. Please cc: him (do a Reply to All) on any replies. -- Mark ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Can you forward this to the PRR-Talk list with a request to Cc: me on any comments? I'm not allowed to post to the list. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Jon Roma Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 09:07 To: Mark Bej; Patrick M Egan Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; Jon Roma Subject: RE: [PRR] Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard > On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Patrick M Egan wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:56:03 EDT PRRSignals@aol.com writes: > > > **wow...thx, Pat....could you possibly say if Western Avenue Tower > > > B&OCTRR) is still standing, as that was the first US&S Type UR entrance > > > exit route type interlocking..???!!! > > > Frank Cararro worked 3rd trick at Western on the CT for years. When the > > tower came down, the maintainer saved the sign for Frank, who had at that > > time a different job with CSX. > > I didn't realize Western was the first NX, but I knew it was an older > > one. > > Pat, > which tower is this?? I had thought (perhaps incorrectly?) that > "Western Ave." > was the Pennsy name for what Milwaukee called "A-2". Or was there another? > What was the location of the tower you describe above, relative to other > PRR towers? This was a tower at about Western and 14th Street. It's the point at which the north/south B&OCT line from Pine Jct. and Barr Yard split in two -- the east branch heading toward downtown (Grand Central Station via the south branch bridge that's alongside the St. Charles Air Line). The west branch (Altenheim Sub) heads west to Forest Park at which point the B&OCT ended and Soo Line and CGW lines diverged therefrom. The B&OCT did not intersect the C&NW main line at the point at which the PH joins Milwaukee, C&NW, and Chicago Union Station tracks. This Western Avenue tower controlled the junction as well as a crossing of the C&NW line down to the old produce terminal (also near the St. Charles Air Line). Not sure if the Panhandle fit into the picture somehow; I need to drag out the article and accompanying diagram. This was not strictly an "NX" operation, that trademark being one belonging to the General Railway Signal Co. The plant, however, was reported in the trade press of the day as US&S's first "Union Route" installation. Union Route is an entry/exit system similar in principle to GRS's NX system. I believe the tower was closed shortly after the closing of some of the inner city yards along the line around 1980. Knowing the unsavory area in which the tower is located, I would expect it to have been destroyed either by the railroad or by area residents shortly after its closing. An acquaintance supposedly has 8 mm movies shot inside and around the tower before it was closed. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 98 16:14:35 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] Proto 1000 F3's According to MR the new Proto 1000s will have the same running gear as the 2000s so they should run. Supposedly the tooling for the shell will met today's level of crisp detail but they won't have separate add on details like hand rails, grabs, pilots, etc. Don't remember if the article said anything about the lighting circuitry. Kris ------------- Original Text From: Jerry , on 9/23/98 2:53 PM: "The Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.onerrave.com) is reporting receipt of the new P1K F3A's in PRR livery. Has anyone ordered any of these? How do they compare vs. P2K in detailing? What were the shortcuts? I personally don't want the F3's, but would like some feedback to consider as future P1K's are annnounced. Speaking of which, anyone know what's in the P2K PRR pipeline after the PA's (Oct.) and GP7's (Nov.) are shipped? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:02:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... In a message dated 9/23/98 9:25:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, johncoop@microsoft.com writes: << > The layout is changing as per plans....CETC may finally get the River Line > portion. The rest of the plant...for SEPTA and CR...???........More if I > get a > chance...Bill*** > What are the plans? John >> **Hi, John...basically like north philadelphia to shore...all rr's isolated, no flexibility. A recent exampl from several years ago = CR now runs delair to shore to north phila down the new connection toward (former RDG park jct) without ever crossing over = no interference. ,,,and , no flexibility. Bridge tracks dedicated one owner, period. Previously, CR came out from SHORE onto 3 or 4 wwd, long frts crossing plant, blocking ewd moves. The latter arrangement lets them run wwd on the "O" Track (Aught, naught; NEVER zero) without interfering with atk, njt or septa moves. ZOO will be split three ways; atk keeps river line, high line to hbg line, and septa isolated once it leaves the river line jct at ZOO. The Amtrak CETC display only allows for River Line, unless plans have changed. The K ladder, our old route to the car washer and yard, etc., will no longer be a viable routing. This was great for emergencies, like when the AEM7 on # 17x got jammed in the underpass near the divider switch ( see my FROG STORY months ago)...and diversions and alternate routes were employed to keep traffic moving. These options and alternates will be done away with. Modern (non-) operating philosophy.......Bill**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:03:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East Conway... On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > > Thanks anyway, Mark. I do have some PRR help "coming" I hope (Ed? Bob? > > etc). For my new website, I wish it to be * pure * "PRRSignals"...Thx, > > Bill*** > Not sure what you mean by "pure PRRSignals". The Conway map on my site is > from a 1959 Employee Timetable. Still Pennsy, I figure ... :-) -- Mark > ****Your offer on this line was for **pictures** of EC in the " > 1980's"..hardly PRR... We have maps, etc.........Thx, anyway.....Bill*** Ah, yes, forgot about the request for pix. Though I doubt the building has changed, no doubt the sign has. And of course, I was too young to take pictures in January of 1968 ... -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:01:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 F3's > Speaking of which, anyone know what's in the P2K PRR pipeline after the > PA's (Oct.) and GP7's (Nov.) are shipped? Last I heard GP30 is probably the next new model we'll see which is PRR-appropriate. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:39:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Lines West 59th Street to CSX Internmodal Yard In a message dated 9/16/98 2:42:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: > Rick, > I think you are right on that being the yard for the Panhandle. I > have found a couple of interesting articles in the PENNSY employee magazine > on different freight trains that did run on the Panhandle to Chicago 59th > St. yard. > > Randy Randy, Can you cite the date of the magazine and what trains were mentioned. This could be of interest to a number of us who operate prototype-oriented schedules. Thanks, Rick Tipton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] 9/54 Philly Div. ETT Still Needed Date: Wed, 23 Sep 98 15:16:05 -0400 From: Jerry Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but there are quite a few new subscribers since my last request... For my "24 Hours At Harrisburg" study (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html), I still need a Philadelphia Division Employee Timetable in effect for Sept. 28, 1954. All other documents for this date became effective Sept. 26th. I have the ETT #6, issued on April 25, 1954, so my guess is that I am seeking #7. I have initially used data from #6, but I know the times changed, often by an even hour, which can be accounted for by Daylight Savings Time, most likely. However, some of the times are not by such a predictable amount. Also, some new trains were introduced that don't appear in the earlier ETT. Anyone? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 F3's Date: Wed, 23 Sep 98 14:53:16 -0400 From: Jerry "The Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.onerrave.com) is reporting receipt of the new P1K F3A's in PRR livery. Has anyone ordered any of these? How do they compare vs. P2K in detailing? What were the shortcuts? I personally don't want the F3's, but would like some feedback to consider as future P1K's are annnounced. Speaking of which, anyone know what's in the P2K PRR pipeline after the PA's (Oct.) and GP7's (Nov.) are shipped? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:41:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] septa block towers On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Thomas K. Trower wrote: > How many block towers does SEPTA still have in operation? > Thanks. > -Josh Trower Hmm, let's see now. Those of you who are still Philly-ites, please correct this list as necessary. First off, those towers on the Trenton, Paoli, and Wilmington lines that are still in operation are Amtrak's, not SEPTA's, though they dispatch SEPTA trains. This would include ZOO, NORTH PHILADELPHIA, PAOLI, and THORN. (BRYN MAWR is standing but not in operation; ditto for HOLMES; unsure about status of GRUNDY, MORRIS; going south, ARSENAL standing & closed, unsure about BRILL, unsure about LAMOKIN or HOOK, BELL standing & closed, WILMINGTON was in station itself.) SEPTA's own towers include the following. Pennsy-heritage towers include BROAD, on the concourse level of Suburban Station, open; CHESTNUT HILL, in the station of the same name, status uncertain; and shoot!, what was the name of the tower on the West Chester/Media line that is now closed? SEPTA's Reading-heritage towers are WAYNE/WIND, two "towers" in one physical structure, located just south of Wayne Jct. station. (Geographically south; for Reading it may have been railroad East; what is it for SEPTA?) SEPTA also probably holds the record for _new_ tower construction! (If you ignore dispatchers' offices, e.g., NS and Conrail.) They built MARK tower, in/at the Market East station, and "A" tower, a squat, cinder-block building behind a grocery store if I recall in southwest Philly, controlling the Airport line. Don't ask me why they built a new building just for that, and why they couldn't run the Airport line out of BROAD or MARK. Or why they couldn't run the whole kit and kaboodle out of BROAD or MARK, or even out of WAYNE/WIND. Don't make no sense to me, nohow. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:20:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East Conway... In a message dated 9/23/98 7:27:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bejm@gateway.eeg.ccf.org writes: << > Thanks anyway, Mark. I do have some PRR help "coming" I hope (Ed? Bob? etc). > For my new website, I wish it to be * pure * "PRRSignals"...Thx, Bill*** Not sure what you mean by "pure PRRSignals". The Conway map on my site is from a 1959 Employee Timetable. Still Pennsy, I figure ... :-) -- Mark >> ****Your offer on this line was for **pictures** of EC in the " 1980's"..hardly PRR... We have maps, etc.........Thx, anyway.....Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] P2K Tuscan E7 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 98 15:27:45 -0400 From: Jerry Don't know if this is a find, or not, but yesterday I stopped by Mainline Hobby Supply in Blue Ridge Summit, Pa. They have (1) Proto 2000 E7A in PRR Tuscan still in stock! The road number is 5860. Hope this helps someone still looking... Meanwhile, if anyone comes across a P2K DGLE E7B, let me know...real quietly!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:20:29 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: [PRR] Alco Centuries Anyone have pictures of either of the two following units PRR 2423 Builders # 3403-2 Blt 2/65 PRR 2431 Builders # 3403-10 Blt 3/65 In PRR colors???? William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator Technical Support & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:10:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRRSignals.... **I saw your note regarding PRR Pos. Light signal heads, Ben.. ...email me in two weeks, we may get 'lucky'.... where are you located ( re:shipping ?).....Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:43:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Philly Chapter Trip - West Chester Branch ***BTW, Last Saturday's PRR T&HS Phila. Chapter Trip was excellent. Many members rode, and attended the Meeting after lunch. Phil Klaus - in full PRR Uniform - ably served as our Conductor, assisted by a friendly crew. The Geep (#99) sounded great, and was (thankfull) repainted from the Yipes / Stripes WCRR scheme into PRR Brunswick Green, with proper lettering. The train consisted of a B60, and two refurbished former Reading MU's, now coaches only. Phil Ritter told me they actually out-sold the entire trip ! Great for the Chapter. Photo run-bys were well staged, and an added treat was the WCRR Alco S1 drilling our train at Glen Mills. A good time was had by all. We even managed to have a PRRSignals group mini-meeting after the trip. Thanks to all that planned / operated / participated in this great Meet !!..Bill***** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:24:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Attn: L W / Indi Union Sta Sch **I second Rick; pls post it, Hal.Thx, Lines East but like to see anything pure PRR Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:31:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > **Hi, John...basically like north philadelphia to shore...all rr's isolated, > no flexibility. A recent exampl from several years ago = CR now runs delair to > shore to north phila down the new connection toward (former RDG park jct) > without ever crossing over = no interference. ,,,and , no flexibility. > Bridge tracks dedicated one owner, period. Bill, correct me if I'm wrong ... is Park Jct. not where RDG and B&O met ... closer to Center City, right near the Museum? Did Conrail not move the name to the location of the new junction? > ZOO will be split three ways; atk keeps river line, high line to hbg line, > and septa isolated once it leaves the river line jct at ZOO. The Amtrak CETC > display only allows for River Line, unless plans have changed. > The K ladder, our old route to the car washer and yard, etc., will no longer > be a viable routing. This was great for emergencies, like when the AEM7 on # > 17x got jammed in the underpass near the divider switch ( see my FROG STORY > months ago)...and diversions and alternate routes were employed to keep > traffic moving. These options and alternates will be done away with. > Modern (non-) operating philosophy.......Bill**** Indeed. Provincial thinking at its best. The basic problem is the existence of 2 operating entities. We could go back 50 years and ask why the Center City Commuter Tunnel was not built from the Reading to the Pennsy side. Basically the same reason. 2 operating entities; personalities; egos; excessive pride; etc. There are basically two ways to compete. You can compete by bettering your own position: better contracts, more productivity, invest in your own infrastructure, etc. The other way to compete is to do things that try to harm your competitor directly, or irritate him. This _might_ help your position, but it might not. How did building the South Penn really help the NYC? Very little. And it was a phenomenal waste of money. How did rebuilding 0 track help Conrail and Amtrak? Surely Conrail stopped running power around freights on the High Line, and could stay on their own rails and not pay Amtrak, and Amtrak was aided by less interference. So far so good. But, in rebuilding 0 track etc., what gain was there in the complete separation of AMTK from CR? None. Or as Bill points out, a _negative_ gain, given the loss of operating flexibility. And for what? Because Mt. Laurel or 20th St. does not want to talk to 30th St?? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 98 17:42:23 CST Subject: [PRR] EBT Fall Spectacular The following, typed on EBT letterhead, was received in Friday's mail. Please distribute freely. EAST BROAD TOP RAILROAD'S 1998 FALL SPECTACULAR, OCTOBER 10 AND OCTOBER 11 The East Broad Top Railroad, owned by the Kovalchick family of Indiana, PA, announces the schedule for the 1998 Fall Spectacular. Excursion trips from the original Orbisonia Station will begin at 9:30 A.M. and continue through 4:40 P.M. Four of the EBT's seventy to eighty year old steam locomotives (#12, #14, #15, #17) will operate single and double headed, pulling a variety of trains throughout both days. An informative announcement will be given aboard each train. Among the unique trains to opeate is an authentic EBT Shade Gap Picnic Train, consisting of all open cars and a caboose that will run throughout both days. The historic M-1 Gas Electric Car, built on site in the EBT shops will make a rare trip at 2:00 P.M. both days. Tours of the shops in which the M-1 and much of the EBT's rolling stock was built will be offered several times each day ($4.00 per tour, per person). The Night Train a popular once a year event, will depart at 6:45 P.M. on Saturday. Thirty-five trains are scheduled to operate during the two day event. For your convenience, several food vendors will be on site all day. Fares are announced in the letter as follows: Regular steam ride, mixed train and Shade Gap Picnic train: adult, $10; child (2-11 yrs), $7.50 M-1 Gas Electric ride: adult, $25; child, $25 One Day Pass (Saturday): adult, $50; child, $35 One Day Pass (Sunday): adult, $40; child, $25 A One Day Pass entitles purchaser to ride any regular steam narrow gauge trains (excluding historical M1 Gas Electric train) on that day or days, as space is available. Tickets are available by mail. Please enclose a stamped, self-addressed envelop with your check made payable to the East Broad Top Railroad, memo, Fall Spectacular. Be sure to specify the number and type of tickets needed. The Rockhill Trolley Museum will use all operable equipment, a wooden inter-urban car, a Toonerville-type trolley, a Brill car, a Bullet car among other recent acquisitions, work equipment and others. A One Day Pass will cost $6.00 for Adults on Saturday and $5.00 for Adults on Sunday. A full Weekend Pass is $9.00. (Please make separate checks for trolley passes, payable to Rockhill Trolley Museum). WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO SUBSTITUTE EQUIPMENT OR CHANGE SCHEDULE. Any mis-spellings are mine, made during transcription. Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:25:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Attn: Lines West / Indianapolis Union Station Schedule In a message dated 9/21/98 7:44:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Hal6963@aol.com writes: > I recently purchased Schedule 585 beginning Sunday. September 26, 1954. > Schedule shows 40 trains. I can post it to the list if there is enough > interest. If not then to individual inquiries. (I lived in Indy for 18 years) > > > Harold > Modeling the Middle Division > from Gainesville, FL True, it may be a little specialized, but I know 11 (LWFs) Lines West Fanatics on PRR-TALK who would be delighted to see this posted. Everyone else is of course free to enjoy the show or hit "delete". Looking forward to your post (40 trains a day!), Rick Tipton, LWF ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] SALE: American Model Builders Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:54:24 -0500 The Northern Central Chapter of the PRR T&HS is selling the New Freedom Station kit for 25% off list and the proceeds go to the station restoration ! Contact : Ivan Frantz at 1126 Hanover Rd. York, PA. 17404 ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] SALE: American Model Builders > Date: Monday, September 21, 1998 2:59 PM > > Just a few more days left in the American Model Builders sale (20% off). > > See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ > > Proceeds benefit operation of the list and "Keystone Crossings". Thank > you much! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bud Kaiser Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 1000 F3's Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:28:15 -0400 Jerry; I saw the units at the Train Show while at the NMRA National Convention. The P1K models have all molded-on details and are not nearly as crisp in detail as the P2K models. I was told at the show that the drive system is the same as the P2K units but I was not able to verify that this was true. The P2K models spoil you. Bud -----Original Message----- From: Jerry [SMTP:jerry@dsop.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 2:53 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 F3's "The Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.onerrave.com) is reporting receipt of the new P1K F3A's in PRR livery. Has anyone ordered any of these? How do they compare vs. P2K in detailing? What were the shortcuts? I personally don't want the F3's, but would like some feedback to consider as future P1K's are annnounced. Speaking of which, anyone know what's in the P2K PRR pipeline after the PA's (Oct.) and GP7's (Nov.) are shipped? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:28:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] Another copy of PRR Centennial hist., They're poping up like mushroms after a spring rain... There's another copy of the PRR Centennial History that just starting its run on ebay. opening bidis $20 for item #32039059. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:21:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bargain Centennial history Hey guys, With less than two days left in an ebay auction Item #31030585 Centennial HIstory of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. 1846-1946 by George Burgess and Miles Kennedy is at a bid price of only $20.90. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:05:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bargain Centennial history >From: LINESWEST@aol.com >Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:21:48 EDT >To: PRR-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Bargain Centennial history > >Hey guys, > > With less than two days left in an ebay auction Item #31030585 Centennial >HIstory of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. 1846-1946 by George Burgess and Miles >Kennedy is at a bid price of only $20.90. > >Tom V. I paid $40 for mine two years ago and it was in mint condidtion. I'm very happy with the one that I have, but I noticed another one on e-Bay (Item #32039059) for $20.00. The price is going down folks. It looks like now's the time to buy. :-) :-) Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:25:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR signals On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 bubbles@visi.net wrote: > >You mean you want a PRR signal head? Indeed there is a legal source within > >Conrail, but I don't have his name immediately handy... > Since Norfolk Southern uses some of the same signals. Has anyone > thought to contact them for some? They may have had theirs made > the same time PRR did. Also there might be some of the shortline > operations that took over PRR trackage that might have some they don't > use or need...One that comes to mind is down this way. > the Eastern Shore RR...they took over part of the Delmava line > and i'm almost sure they don't use their signals (Probably > haven't in years). N&W signals will all or nearly all be colorized, not PRR amber. Plus they're missing the center lamp on the upper arm (as are modern Amtrak signals). Getting that extra unit and proper color filters to PRRify an N&W signal may cost you as much as the signal did in the first place. Oh, BTW, have any of you ever tried to LIFT one of these babies? I have some very recent experience transporting one from Chicago to here, and let me tell you, that forklift was a welcome addition ... > Hmmmmm Also another place to contact might > be Amtrak....They might have some from the NEC trackage they run. Doubt it. Remember that AMTK has been _adding_ signals in their quest to bidirectionally signal the NEC. NOT deleting them. It's Conrail that is removing signals. A signal removal that was already to have happened, but has been delayed by merger priorities like rebuilding the Short Line and Big Four from Berea to Greenwich, is the removal of intermediate signals on the C&P from Alliance to Cleveland and installation of cab-signals-without- wayside-signals. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:37:39 -0700 Subject: [PRR] GP 30's From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Derrick J Brashear writes: >> Speaking of which, anyone know what's in the P2K PRR pipeline after >the >> PA's (Oct.) and GP7's (Nov.) are shipped? > >Last I heard GP30 is probably the next new model we'll see which is >PRR-appropriate. > >-D I was told two years ago on the inside that Kato will release a GP 30 on the GP 35 chassis. Somethin' else to look for. SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR 476199 (ND cabin) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 98 12:03:30 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Hi guys, Can anyone help Jim out on this? 476199 is an ND cabin car. Anyone have any photos or drawings? I already pointed him to the Strasburg RR who has a restored ND and the Railroad Museum of PA who is supposed to be getting one. Rob ---------------------- http://prr.railfan.net ----------------------------------- The members of the fright car department of the Illinois Railway Museum are looking for information on the PRR 476199. It is our intention to restore the car, but we do not have a great deal of information on it. If you have a builders drawing of this cabin car, and you can provide us with a copy, we would greatly appreciate it. If you know of any photos of the car, we also could use this information since all side-markings were lost during a residing of this car by its previous owner. The car was built in 1903. Thanks, Jim Opolony, IRM ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:48:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] New Union Station Exhibit I went to Washington's Union Station for a party last night and was pleased to see them setting up a new exhibit entitled "A Station Reborn" in the main hall of the station. The well thought-out exhibit features many PRR and B&O artifacts, and several interesting large-scale models of current and future Amtrak equipment. Also interesting was a large-scale model of a WWI era Red Cross troop hospital car. The exhibit, which is sponsored in part by the B&O & Pennsylvania RR museums, will run the month of October and feature tours of "historic train cars." A schedule of events can be found at: http://www.lasalle.com/union/events.htm#anchor245567 If you're in DC it's worth a visit- even if you're not just instinctively drawn to the local train station!!! Jay Keese NVNTRAK Alexandria, VA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:16:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] SEPTA phila area towers - ***Thanks for Bob's input; one alteration.... An Amtrak pal had worked at Chestnut Hill West years ago, FOR AMTRAK. apparently Septa just repaid for services, semi-common arrangement. Cannot find GO's, butt closed years ago...now a bank (?), etc......my info..Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] alco s-2 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:49:55 -0500 Any one out their know if anyone other than atlas makes an S2. Also, any road numbers or photos available of these in PRR service. Im particularly interested in the Renovo division. Im told that they were used to switch the Warren PA yard. Thanks Walt ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:36:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] alco s-2 > Any one out their know if anyone other than atlas makes an S2. Also, any > road numbers or photos available of these in PRR service. Im particularly > interested in the Renovo division. Im told that they were used to switch > the Warren PA yard. Waht's wrong with the Atlas one? May not currently be in production in PRR colors but they are out there if you look -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] GP 30's > > I was told two years ago on the inside that Kato will release a GP 30 on > the GP 35 chassis. Somethin' else to look for. > I've also heard rumors to that effect, but I don't care; Kato underproduces, and compared to P2K their prices aren't great either. Their paint schemes leave some to be desired as well. They do run very well, though.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:38:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 476199 (ND cabin) The PRRT&HS has available photos of ND cabin 475755 taken 06/28/49 at Harrison, NJ and ND cabin 478803 (which I also have) taken 05/18/48 at Bellefonte. I also have a photo of ND cabin 476010. A drawing was published in the July 1952 Model Railroader magazine. I expect to receive a copy shortly from the National Model Railroad Association's library at Chattanooga. A fellow member has already received it, and I expect to get my copy at our next meeting. The Train Shed Encyclopedia No. 11 is supposed to have one on page 365. regards, Dennis Sautters ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] fwd: PRR RS-3 in 1998! Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:38:00 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell This came by on the NERail mailing list; can anybody help out? Dennis ------- Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:41:42 -0400 From: BKulik Subject: PRR RS-3 in 1998! While traveling along Route 23 just west of Conshohocken, PA today, I glimpsed what appeared to be a derelict RS-3 still lettered "Pennsylvania", resting on a spur near some industrial buildings. As I was enroute to a business meeting, I could not stop to investigate. Does anyone on the list know the background or status of this locomotive? Brandon Kulik kulik01@mint.net ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:01:25 -0500 From: bkroger@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR signals There's nothing wrong with getting an N&W or an old B&O/C&O signal, either - getting one of those is also on the list. The point is to display and interpret the different ways railroads used signals and to obtain those signals before they're all gone. What is taken for granted as junk one day becomes a treasured reminder of the past in very short order. Regards, Ben Kroger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:19:36 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR signals Mark D Bej wrote: > On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > > >You mean you want a PRR signal head? Indeed there is a legal source within > > >Conrail, but I don't have his name immediately handy... > I've seen some very nice amber still in use on the LIRR. Maybe the MTA can be of some help? http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/lirr/lirr.htm or the MTA transit museum at (718) 330-3063 Couldn't hurt. -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:19:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... In a message dated 98-09-23 17:47:39 EDT, you write: << But, in rebuilding 0 track etc., what gain was there in the complete separation of AMTK from CR? None. Or as Bill points out, a _negative_ gain, given the loss of operating flexibility. And >> Same thing with the removal of catenary from CR-owned trackage. Same thing with the inability to use Amtrak tickets on SEPTA trains (with one exception) or vice versa. Two not-so-talented bureaucracies fighting with each other cause problems for those who pay for the service. I say, put the Corridor back together again! Make it ONE BIG RAILROAD, with freight, express passenger, and commuter. It worked fine for many years, and would do so again. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] UPDATE" 24 Hours at Harrisburg" Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 06:24:58 -0400 From: Jerry I've made substantial additions to "24 Hours at Harrisburg", my chronology of train movements. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html Using the New York Division's "Makeup of Trains" book, all westbound trains originating in New York now include complete consist information, including head-end equipment AND exact car names. Next to come will be eastbound trains terminating in New York, using the same source. I'd like to find a Maryland Division book by the same title, to provide the same info for Washington originating/terminating trains. My source on the first one, Chuck Blardone, doesn't have one. It needs to be dated 9/24/54. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 11:20:18 CST Subject: [PRR] Sanborn maps... Hi, everyone, I was visiting the map collection at the U of Chicago recently, looking for Sanborn Ins. maps. Not surprisingly they have a good collection for Illinois but not much else. Anyone have suggestions about collections of Sanborns for PA, NY, and WV that are within a few hours of Chicago? Or are Sanborns available on microfilm? Thanks for your help. Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: Re: [PRR] SEPTA phila area towers - Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:10:53 -0400 (EDT) PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > An Amtrak pal had worked at Chestnut Hill West years ago, FOR AMTRAK. > apparently Septa just repaid for services, semi-common arrangement. You're talking about Dougie? He went from the Hill to Penn when the Big Commuter Rail Strike of 1983 shut the branch down. Until that time, the Pennsy-side towers were Amtrak's, the RDG-side were Conrail's, and SEPTA only contracted with Conrail to run the trains (provide T&E crews)... SEPTA also paid Amtrak for (at least) some part of the operation of Chestnut Hill, as the operator also served as a ticket agent. Post-strike, we saw SEPTA become a full-fledged (coff, coff) railroad, with their own T&E crews and own property. Same thing happened with Nudge and Metro North. (Big difference is that NJT and MNCR ran their operations as railroads from the get-go, while SEPTA tried to run it as a subway...) So, on July 3, 1983, the operator, er, towerperson, who opened up CH West was a SEPTA employee. The situation somewhat parallels Amtrak in the NEC: AMTK owns equipment but contracts out the T&E crews from Conrail; in October 1976 they gain posession of the NEC along with operators and dispatchers. It isn't until later that T&E employees become Amtrak, and there was that agreement that allowed for flowback between CR and AMTK -- something that did not exist in the CR/commuter split. (Did anyone else take advantage of the two days of free rides SEPTA offered when they resumed service? I rode everything except the Norristown Branch -- did that plenty of times when service still existed to Pottsville.) Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:57:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] alternative operating plans...good and bad. > ***A lot of that decision stemmed from the incident at the frankford jct > yards, when a kid climbed up and got zappped, jul 4 weekend, > 1976..(?)....trespasser, etc., but case settled in million$$$ for the kid / > family....that and amtrak excessive electric charges (sorry/pun) influenced > the drop the wires thinking..... Mr. Tangent here; This is why we need roving hit squads. You bring a lawsuit like this, when you brought it on yourself, you get shot. So does your attorney. Have a nice day, and please come again. That said, it seems to me (and I can't say for sure, I was 3 when Conrail was formed) that different traffic patterns, and crews staying on for longer, probably adversely affected electric operations which were only in that small part of the system (relatively). I sure wouldn't mind seeing the Pennsy of old, obviously, but I suppose there are reasons why it could no longer happen. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 11:01:09 CST Subject: [PRR] Off-topic request... Hi, all, Can anyone out there recommend to me some folks knowledgable about the history of the Erie RR in the 19th century? I inherited an artifact that reportedly was from the Erie RR display at the Philadelphia Centennial Expostion of 1876 and would like to try to verify this. Any help or advice would be appreciated. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: [PRR] Re: NECorridor speeds... Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:13:40 -0400 (EDT) PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > In discussing Metroliner speeds; as we all know they were capable > of higher speeds, and proved it regularly in testing... Wasn't there something in one of the late PRR or early PC ETT's about max speed for testing the 800-series cars? I don't know, since my TTs are at home and I'm at work :-b I know Amtrak practice is to take a track out of service (typically No. 3 track between County or Midway to Fair), and let the Engineering Department have at it. The cab control cars, rebuilt from the original Metroliners, were tested up there at 140+ MPH circa 1989-1990 this way. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:08:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Attn: Lines West / Indianapolis Union Station Schedule In a message dated 9/25/98 1:17:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LINESWEST writes: > Speaking of movement, I'm still intereested in attending your Oct. 17 > operating session but need transportation. Anyone coming from Dayton- > Springfirld-Columbus area? Tom, That ops session is now scheduled for Oct 24 at noon. All PRR-Talkers are of course welcome, but I haven't heard from anyone else in that direction beyond Cincy. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR signals Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Mark D Bej wrote: > On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Hmmmmm Also another place to contact might > > be Amtrak....They might have some from the NEC trackage they run. > > Doubt it. Remember that AMTK has been _adding_ signals in their quest to > bidirectionally signal the NEC. NOT deleting them. It's Conrail that > is removing signals. Chances are, though, that the signals Amtrak adds are going to be newer (aluminum with plastic face) Safetran units rather than US&S (cast iron, hernia-inflicting) heads. The supply of reusable PL heads is somewhat limited, and what little bit that can't be reused gets scrapped. I know that the Lancaster scrap pile had (back around 1990) many more switch movements than signal parts... Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:02:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Off-topic request... > Can anyone out there recommend to me some folks knowledgable about the > history of the Erie RR in the 19th century? I inherited an artifact that > reportedly was from the Erie RR display at the Philadelphia Centennial > Expostion of 1876 and would like to try to verify this. Any help or advice > would be appreciated. Yes ... but I can't remember his name now. Call the University of Akron, their history department, and ask; I'm sure they'll know the prof's name immediately. Roger Somebody ...? Area code is 330. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] "Makeup of Trains" books wanted Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 10:48:17 -0400 From: Jerry For my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" study, I am seeking the following editions of "Makeup of Trains", each dated Sept. 26, 1954: * Philadelphia Division * Maryland Division Whatever division(s) include Chicago or St. Louis may be of some use if above two documents are unavailable. Anyone? (Chuck Blardone, a popular source, does not have these.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Mark Bej wrote: > Bill, correct me if I'm wrong ... is Park Jct. not where RDG and B&O > met ... closer to Center City, right near the Museum? Did Conrail > not move the name to the location of the new junction? Park Jct. was where the RDG and B&O met -- heading east, one could either make a left turn and run on the City Branch through a cut and a ramp and end up at Race (Reading Terminal), or go straight into the tunnel beneath the Art Museum. The City Branch was abandoned several years ago (prior to 1983), so the requirement of having an interlocking there went away. > The basic problem is the existence of 2 operating entities. We > could go back 50 years and ask why the Center City Commuter Tunnel > was not built from the Reading to the Pennsy side. Basically the > same reason. 2 operating entities; personalities; egos; excessive > pride; etc. Not that the *idea* wasn't thought of... there was a Railway Age article published sometime in 1962 (don't know exact issue/date) that discussed this possibility *with drawings*. The major difference between that plan and what was eventually implemented was that in the 1962 drawings, Reading Terminal remained in service for the longer-distance trains RDG was running then; the last Diesel-powered trains from Reading Terminal ran in 1981, RIP. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:32:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] alternative operating plans...good and bad. In a message dated 9/25/98 1:36:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, PRRMAN@AOL.COM writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... Date: 9/25/98 1:36:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: PRRMAN@AOL.COM Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: bejm@gateway.eeg.ccf.org CC: prr-talk@dsop.com In a message dated 98-09-23 17:47:39 EDT, you write: << But, in rebuilding 0 track etc., what gain was there in the complete separation of AMTK from CR? None. Or as Bill points out, a _negative_ gain, given the loss of operating flexibility. And >> *** *Mark presumes that he understands my discussion, here, but not really.. In Actuality = .the freights running on the O track was a major operational improvement. That saved many frequent delays previously suffered at SHORE by all = CR, Septa, Amtrak, etc....***** PRR(PC)MAN Wrote: Same thing with the removal of catenary from CR-owned trackage. ***A lot of that decision stemmed from the incident at the frankford jct yards, when a kid climbed up and got zappped, jul 4 weekend, 1976..(?)....trespasser, etc., but case settled in million$$$ for the kid / family....that and amtrak excessive electric charges (sorry/pun) influenced the drop the wires thinking..... The next thing, diesels are running thru during a power shortage..!!!! NO LOGIC..!!! could use electrics, but no. So trains sat and waited for power, while e44s sat around collecting pigeon poopooo.....Bill***** Same thing with the inability to use Amtrak tickets on SEPTA trains (with one exception) or vice versa. Two not-so-talented bureaucracies fighting with each other cause problems for those who pay for the service. I say, put the Corridor back together again! Make it ONE BIG RAILROAD, with freight, express passenger, and commuter. It worked fine for many years, and would do so again. Rich Copeland >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:05:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Ken Reinert wrote: > > Mark Bej wrote: > > Bill, correct me if I'm wrong ... is Park Jct. not where RDG and B&O > > met ... closer to Center City, right near the Museum? Did Conrail > > not move the name to the location of the new junction? > > Park Jct. was where the RDG and B&O met -- heading east, one could > either make a left turn and run on the City Branch through a cut and a > ramp and end up at Race (Reading Terminal), or go straight into the > tunnel beneath the Art Museum. The City Branch was abandoned several > years ago (prior to 1983), so the requirement of having an > interlocking there went away. Right. So to answer my question (a bit more directly), Park Jct. was right at the northern end of the museum tunnel, n'est pas? So Conrail, in calling the junction near the RDG bridge has moved the name RR-west about a mile, yes? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RailFest Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 13:09:53 -0400 From: Jerry For anyone pondering RailFest, I've got a few seats open in my van and welcome riders. Riders are welcome to do as they want once on-site, but here's my itinerary: 5 a.m. - Leave Etters, Pa. (Where? Halfway between York and Harrisburg.) Will travel Turnpike west to I-99 (?) north. 7:15 a.m. (app.) - Arrive Altoona. Will go directly to Station Mall to "attempt" to park between the mall and the tracks. (This location comes into play later.) If parking is unavailable there, will railfan the area...perhaps The Brickyard or The Curve. 9 a.m. - Meet up with PRR-Talk and Conrail-Talk contingents at location to be designated by our fearless event leader, Carl Hasslett. 9-11 a.m. - Tour museum. 11:40 a.m. - Excursion train departs. until 3 p.m. (app.) - Watch Penn State/Ohio State game trackside behind Station Mall. I will have portable tv and, if I get the parking I want, will have 16' flagpole with PSU flag. Stop by for a soda and snacks! 3-6 p.m. - Walking tour of Altoona Shops OR railfanning. I did the tour last year and may not repeat. 7 p.m. - Dinner at Hoss's. 9 p.m. (app.) - Drive home, perhaps via 22/322 with stop at Lewistown Station or another locale. 11:30 p.m. - Approximate arrival back in Etters. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:50:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Ken Reinert wrote: > > Mark D Bej wrote: > > So to answer my question (a bit more directly), Park Jct. was > > right at the northern end of the museum tunnel, n'est pas? So Conrail, > > in calling the junction near the RDG bridge has moved the name RR-west > > about a mile, yes? > > Yes, and yes. (Is it really that far between the two points? It's > been quite a while since I've ventured around that stretch of railroad...) I'm estimating. But think about it. The original Park Jct. would be right where East River Drive (yes, I know, old name; I like the old name) begins. It then curves back and forth, then the boathouses start, then you _still_ have to drive some to get to the RDG bridge ... -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:32:27 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR & RDG & B&O From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Speaking of the Reading and B&O..... Both of these railroads ran through northern Delaware, a state itself mostly dominated by the Pennsylvania. Being from the south end of that state, I never have been able to explore the different yards there. The old Pennsy line is in use by Conrail, and the B&O's yard is used my CSX. The old Reading car float died during the start of Conrail. Question: does anyone know if (and where) the PRR did interchange with either of these roads in the Wilmington-Newark Delaware, region. I did see a photo in the RDG color guide where the PRR lines went OVER the Reading--didn't look like much of a chance for interchange. SSGT York ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Mark D Bej wrote: > So to answer my question (a bit more directly), Park Jct. was > right at the northern end of the museum tunnel, n'est pas? So Conrail, > in calling the junction near the RDG bridge has moved the name RR-west > about a mile, yes? Yes, and yes. (Is it really that far between the two points? It's been quite a while since I've ventured around that stretch of railroad...) Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:47:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] alternative operating plans...good and bad. On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: I wrote: > > But, in rebuilding 0 track etc., what gain was there > > in the complete separation of AMTK from CR? None. Or as Bill points > > out, a _negative_ gain, given the loss of operating flexibility. And > *Mark presumes that he understands my discussion, here, but not really.. > In Actuality = .the freights running on the O track was a major operational > improvement. That saved many frequent delays previously suffered at SHORE by > all = CR, Septa, Amtrak, etc....***** Quite the contrary, I understood you perfectly. Freights moved to 0 track are a major improvement for others involved. However, there are 2 ways to move freights to 0 track, aren't there? One can do it permanently or semi- permanently. Permanently in this case = provide _no_ connection to other tracks. Semi-permanently = provide some connection. Latter situation is not HUGE bucks; likely already was present in some form; and may save your tushie at some point. > PRR(PC)MAN Wrote: Same thing with the removal of catenary from CR-owned > trackage. > ***A lot of that decision stemmed from the incident at the frankford jct > yards, when a kid climbed up and got zappped, jul 4 weekend, > 1976..(?)....trespasser, etc., but case settled in million$$$ for the kid / > family....that and amtrak excessive electric charges (sorry/pun) influenced > the drop the wires thinking..... Bill, do you really think that liability was the major reason? I sort of doubt it. Lookit, Conrail had one thing that Penn Central did not: a main line (such as it was) from near NYC to Philly or just about, and from Philly to Harrisburg. Granted, 2/3 of the latter was considered "branch" status. Anyway, CR's potential RDG route was mostly unelectrified. CR could have abandoned it and used PRR, but 2 things conspired IMHO to move CR to its own route. One I already mentioned: separate operating companies, egos, personalities, etc., that basic "why should I run my trains on your tracks" approach to life. But Amtrak, sometime around 1980 or 1981 if I recall, suddenly jacked up their per-car-mile rates by several-fold. Well above industry-standard rates, from what I was told. No doubt they went crying to CR and/or FRA that "Conrail's heavy trains ruin our rails" or some such thing. Or else AMTK was expecting to cash in big. Conrail could either pay through the nose and stay on PRR, or upgrade the RDG and run on it. Guess what they did. Yeah, I like Pennsy, too, but business is business. Given, now, that CR is running on the NONelectrified Reading, does it make any sense to run an electric engine from Enola to STATE in Harrisburg, swap in a diesel for the run to NORRIS, swap in an electric to run to TRENT, then swap in another diesel to run to north Jersey? I doubt it. I suspect that for similar reasons the Low Grade (A&S) became superfluous, as well as the western end of the Trenton Cut-Off. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] alternative operating plans...good and bad. Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:49:31 -0700 I believe that the clearance issue with double-stacks was also a factor in removing the catenary. John > ---------- > From: Mark D Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Friday, September 25, 1998 12:47 PM > To: PRRSignals@aol.com > Cc: PRRMAN@aol.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] alternative operating plans...good and bad. > > > > Given, now, that CR is running on the NONelectrified Reading, does it make > any sense to run an electric engine from Enola to STATE in Harrisburg, > swap > in a diesel for the run to NORRIS, swap in an electric to run to TRENT, > then swap in another diesel to run to north Jersey? I doubt it. > > I suspect that for similar reasons the Low Grade (A&S) became superfluous, > as well as the western end of the Trenton Cut-Off. > > > -- > Mark > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:23:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Fort Wayne; was: alternative operating plans On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, John Cooper wrote: > > I believe that the clearance issue with double-stacks was also a factor in > removing the catenary. Speaking of double-stacks ... I forgot to mention in my brief description of my recent Chicago trip that, as I was leaving Chicago on the Skyway (I-90) ... well ahead of rush hour, thank God ... I managed to watch a double-stack leaving town on the parallel Fort Wayne main line. Several round-ended PRR signal bridges are still in place there. I thought it was bad enough that the first bridge provided only about 2 feet of clearance. But I about died as I watched the train pass under the signal bridge just northwest (RR-west) of the South Chicago lift bridges. I could not believe it. The double-stacks were clearing the bridge by *less* than a foot, it seemed. Sure, I was 4 lanes of traffic away, and one must take parallax error into account, and all that. But it is *close*! One or two rounds of dumping ballast for track maintenance, and those babies won't clear any more. You Chicagolanders should get out that way this winter and watch the snow/ice being shaved off the tops of the double stacks! -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:27:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Attn: Lines West / Indianapolis Union Station Schedule The Indianapolis Union Railway Co. SCHEDULE OF ARRIVAL AND DEPARTURE OF TRAINS Indianapolis Union Station No. 585 IN EFFECT SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1954 PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD COLUMBUS DIVISION DEPART 906 - Mail and Express - 2:45am 6 - Allegheny, s.d.dy. (4) - 3.10am 12 - ¶ (8) - 6.30am 66 - The Amer'n, s.d.dy.bl. - 1.02pm 4 - The Penn Texas, dy,s,d. - 2.20pm 20 - Indpls. Ltd., s.d.bl. - (2) (3) - 5.00pm 30 - Sp. St. L., s.d.dy.bl. - 5.10pm 32 - The St. Louisan, s.dy. - 10.50pm ARRIVE 927 - Mail & Express - 1:35am 27 - dy.S. - 2.25am 33 - The St. Louisan, s.d.dy.bl. - 3.15am 21 - Indpls. Ltd., s.d.bl. (9) - 8.55am 31 - Sp. St. L., s.d.dy.bl. (4) - 9.21am 3 - The Penn Texas, dy,s,d. - 10.42am 67 - The Amer'n, s.d.dy.bl. - 2.10pm 11 - Fast Mail ¶ (4) (10) - 5.27pm INDIANAPOLIS DIVISION TO AND FROM CHICAGO DEPART 305 - The Kentuckian, s.dy.(4) - 1.50am 315 - Chic. Daylt. Ex., Pb.dy. - 10.00am 303 - So. Wind, (6),d.cl.dy.(4) - 3.05pm ARRIVE 306 - The Kentuckian, s.dy.(4) - 3.20am 304 - So. Wind, (5),d.cl.dy. - 12.39pm 308 - Blue Grass Spec., Pb.dy. - 6.40pm TO AND FROM LOUISVILLE DEPART 306 - The Kentuckian, s.dy.(4) - 3.40am 304 - So. Wind, (5),d.cl.dy. - 12.39pm 308 - Blue Grass Spec., Pb.dy. - 6.50pm ARRIVE 305 - The Kentuckian, s.dy.(4) - 1.30am 315 - Chic. Daylt. Ex., Pb.dy. - 9.55am 303 - So. Wind, (6),d.cl.dy.(4) - 3.00pm VINCENNES BRANCH No Passenger Service ST. LOUIS DIVISION DEPART 27 - dy.s - 2.25am 33 - The St. Louisan, s.d.dy.bl. - 3.15am 31 - Sp. St. L., s.d.dy.bl. (4) - 9.21am 3 - The Penn Texas, dy,s,d. - 10.42am 67 - The Amer'n, s.d.dy.bl. - 2.10pm 11 - Fast Mail ¶ (4) (10) - 5.40pm ARRIVE 6 - Allegheny, s.d.dy. (4) - 3.10am 12 - ¶ - 5.40am 66 - The Amer'n, s.d.dy.bl. - 1.02pm 4 - The Penn Texas, dy,s,d. - 2.20pm 30 - Sp. St. L., s.d.dy.bl.(4) - 5.05pm 32 - The St. Louisan, d.s.dy. - 10.35pm Trains Marked Thus: dy.-Daily s.-Sleeper pc.-Parlor-Cafe x.-Daily Except Sunday p.-Parlor Car cl.-Club Car z.-Daily Except Sunday d.-Dining Car bl.-Buffet-Lounge pb.-Parlor-Buffet (2)-Daily Except Sunday (3)-Will not operate November 25 and 26 and December 24 and 31, 1954 (4)-No Baggage Service (5)-Operates through to Florida every third day beginning September 27, 1954 (6)-Operates through from Florida every third day beginning September 27, 1954 (9)-Will not operate November 26 and 27 and December 25, 1954 and January 1, 1955 (10)-Will not operate November 26, December 25, 1954 and January 1, 1955 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:34:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: NECorridor speeds... In a message dated 9/25/98 12:13:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kreinert@erols.com writes: << Subj: Re: NECorridor speeds... Date: 9/25/98 12:13:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: kreinert@erols.com (Ken Reinert) Reply-to: kreinert@erols.com To: PRRSignals@aol.com CC: kreinert@erols.com, maxrail@worldnet.att.net, wahsatch@vaix2.net, Homesignal@aol.com PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > We are looking for any * regular service authorized * speeds over > 125 mph. I couldn't find, butt my PC's are buried....for > metroliners. even meatballs, seems 125 was tops allowed, reg > service. Nothing, to my recollection, was ever granted authority to run more than 125 in regular service. Even 125 requires a waiver from the FRA, doesn't it? Didn't the X2000 and ICE require similar waivers? (Figures, I leave Amtrak, then they get all this neat stuff to play with...) > G and others sent me plans...whew...270 new code, intrer-relate / overlay > with old, get 9 vs 4 cab aspects....and political / trackwork speeds can be > reflected.....wow...even temporary speed restrictions, etc..... 270-code is being fed to the track in place of no code now... I forget the explanation that one of the C&S guys told me, but it had to do with a problem when there wasn't supposed to be code (maybe that's it... 270 code indicates an occuiped block, no code means circuit's broken? Memory is failing me now...) Ken >> ***no, actually dual code system..fantastic. Get 120 AND 270 = means one new aspect, etc....full scheme to be detailed later. Nine discreet code combinations !..Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:20:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] It WAS Better before.... In a message dated 9/25/98 8:36:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << That said, it seems to me (and I can't say for sure, I was 3 when Conrail was formed) that different traffic patterns, and crews staying on for longer, probably adversely affected electric operations which were only in that small part of the system (relatively). I sure wouldn't mind seeing the Pennsy of old, obviously, but I suppose there are reasons why it could no longer happen. -D >> ***Hi, D...can always rely upon your help and ...ahem...advice...!!! hahhahaha.. . No, the opposite happened. Hours of service laws were shrinking, 16 to 14 to 12, and where once speedy electrified freights could race passenger trains zapping from meadows to enola / hbg in, say six hours, operational hurdles ( like being called for 2 pm, butt no engines around..) actually caused thru frts to only try to run NY Term to morrisville, then another crew ( double expenses, plus motels, cabs, jitneys, etc..) morrisville to enola....a total reversal to 4-4-0 steam days. Just the opposite of 'progress on the rails'....very sad times......bill**.... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:04:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Crew flowback... In a message dated 9/25/98 8:11:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kreinert@erols.com writes: << dispatchers. It isn't until later that T&E employees become Amtrak, and there was that agreement that allowed for flowback between CR and AMTK -- something that did not exist in the CR/commuter split. >> ***not entirely,,, that is why septa lost people so badly, same with us ( former cr people into commuter) ...always retained rights to revert back to cr...BUTT...never return to comm oprtg agency....one prr pal, he went nj>CR>atk> calif !!!!!...and now back east..??!!! too much sun, huh..???......hahha./bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:53:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Attn: Lines West / Indianapolis Union Station Schedule Correction: ¶.-Daily Except Monday †.-Daily Except Sunday ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:57:09 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Thanks Hi Folks... I'd like to thank everyone who helped with my Pullman combine question. I'm now moving on to my next project, converting the Bachmann EMC Gas Electric car i have to a more correct version of a PRR GEW350 Brill Gas electric car. It seems the Bachmann car is'nt long enough for the sixteen passenger windows those cars had...so to compromise i can fit fourteen windows and still have the spacing and details about right. This will also include changing and adding windows and or doors to both ends where needed,modifications to both sides (mainly toward the front of the car) and roof mods. I'm not out to get a exact copy of a PRR car,but i do want to give it the appearance of one. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:24:56 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N-scale "Radio" decals From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I am just starting to pick up some power that will be PRR 1968 stuff in N-scale. I was wondering if anyone out there may know where I may, if they are available, obtain some of the "Radio" decals? Thanks for your help. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:29:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale "Radio" decals In a message dated 9/25/98 9:38:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, locoshop@juno.com writes: << Subj: [PRR] N-scale "Radio" decals Date: 9/25/98 9:38:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: locoshop@juno.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Hello all, I am just starting to pick up some power that will be PRR 1968 stuff in N-scale. I was wondering if anyone out there may know where I may, if they are available, obtain some of the "Radio" decals? Thanks for your help. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com >> ***A PRR Conductor (Larry Mennie) and I had these custom ordered and made from an original decal by microscale decades ago, in O and HO...they may have continued production, and might have made N..???..Write them...Bill***** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:37:34 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 476199 (ND cabin) N.J.Int.'s Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and LI RRs has 4 pics of Class ND. Cabins #475843 & #476010 and 2 others, possibly #478449? and #476042. It also has a sparely dimensioned line drawing (not a construction drawing); side and end views. Sweetland & Yanosey's Color Guide has a pic of Class NDA #479815. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:38:24 -0400 From: Jeff Levine Subject: [PRR] Hulett Electric Unloader "Can" anyone out there give me any information; history, general use of, >etc., of the Hulett Electric Unloader? As described in my book, "when the >loaded ore vessels arrive at the lower lake ports, the ore is removed from >the ships by hulette electric unloaders or unloading rigs and transferred to >stockpiles or to railroad cars of the Bessemer Lake Erie, Penn Central, or >Erie Lackawanna Railroads for shipment to inland mills." > >Any information would be greatly appreciated. > >Jeff Levine > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:47:08 -0400 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Off-topic request... Roger Grant. He's a big-time rail history authority. He's authored a number of really good books covering railroad history. Mark D Bej wrote: > > Can anyone out there recommend to me some folks knowledgable about the > > history of the Erie RR in the 19th century? I inherited an artifact that > > reportedly was from the Erie RR display at the Philadelphia Centennial > > Expostion of 1876 and would like to try to verify this. Any help or advice > > would be appreciated. > > Yes ... but I can't remember his name now. Call the University of Akron, their > history department, and ask; I'm sure they'll know the prof's name immediately. > Roger Somebody ...? Area code is 330. > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:40:36 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] Hulett Electric Unloader Try this : http://junior.apk.net/~cam/huletts/huletts.htm It's a site with photos of the Huletts at Cleveland. Have fun, J.W.Rosenbauer Jeff Levine wrote: > > "Can" anyone out there give me any information; history, general use of, > >etc., of the Hulett Electric Unloader? As described in my book, "when > the > >loaded ore vessels arrive at the lower lake ports, the ore is removed > from > >the ships by hulette electric unloaders or unloading rigs and transferred > to > >stockpiles or to railroad cars of the Bessemer Lake Erie, Penn Central, > or > >Erie Lackawanna Railroads for shipment to inland mills." > > > >Any information would be greatly appreciated. > > > >Jeff Levine > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Port" Subject: [PRR] Rail Fest Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:19:21 -0400 Hi All, I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the Altoona Rail Fest, such as how much it costs, where at in Altoona, and any other information about it. Thanks Dan Port ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:41:18 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] Hulett Electric Unloader Jeff Levine wrote: > > "Can" anyone out there give me any information; history, general use of, > >etc., of the Hulett Electric Unloader? As described in my book, "when > the > >loaded ore vessels arrive at the lower lake ports, the ore is removed > from > >the ships by hulette electric unloaders or unloading rigs and transferred > to > >stockpiles or to railroad cars of the Bessemer Lake Erie, Penn Central, > or > >Erie Lackawanna Railroads for shipment to inland mills." > > > >Any information would be greatly appreciated. > > > >Jeff Levine ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:40:30 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Hank's Brill car > I'm now moving on to my next project, converting the > Bachmann EMC Gas Electric car i have to a more correct version > of a PRR GEW350 Brill Gas electric car. It seems the Bachmann > car is'nt long enough for the sixteen passenger windows those > cars had...so to compromise i can fit fourteen windows and still > have the spacing and details about right. > Hank Mummert ===== One thing you can do, Hank, is to claim the car is old and worn out and about to go to scrap- the shortage and the missing windows can be attributed to body rust. Like, the car just keeps rusting away and getting shorter and shorter, no? Happy modeling, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:26:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Hulett Electric Unloader i know that the hulett unnloaders are located at the Whiskey Island docks in cleveland. they are still on the site, but unused today. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Fest Date: Sat, 26 Sep 98 15:27:15 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/26/98 12:19 PM, Dan Port (danielport@allegany.com) wrote: > I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the Altoona Rail Fest, such >as how much it costs, where at in Altoona, and any other information about >it. Wait much longer and you'll miss it! Phone 814-946-0834 Next weekend Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is main venue. Tickets $12 adults, $4 under 12 - Includes museum Excursion tickets, if any still available, $12 each. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:36:32 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] car 1000 Hi again folks... Ok heres some questions for you all...In the book "PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment" Vol.2 on page 22 it states that the PRR bought this car from Anheuser-Busch (the Budwieser folks) and that it was named "Adolphus" by them. It also states that this was the only fluted-side stainless steel Business car the PRR owned. Ok... 1. Why would Anheuser-Busch have such a car to begin with? and... 2. Is this the same car that became Amtrak 10,000? and 3. If so,is this car still owned by Amtrak? I vegely recall seeing this car once sitting in Union station in Washington during the early 1980's. By the Way...Even though this book has been out for a while,i just got this book today and it is a very good book to show PRR equipment in later years. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:59:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Hulett Electric Unloader The PRR T&HS published a series of articles on the ore docks in their "Keystone". The first issue was Summer 1986. The Cleveland ore docks acquired and placed four Huletts into service in May of 1912. Each operator rides in a cab located in each of the "legs", directly above the 17 ton (maximum capacity) clamshell bucket. He rides up and down with the bucket in & out of the ship's compartments. The bucket leg can also rotate. It worked on hydraulics. The ore was deposited into a receiving container called a "larry", which rides underneath but high enough above the rails to drop the ore into waiting hoppers or the larry can go all the way to the back and deposit the ore into a traveling gantry crane, which piled the ore for loading train hoppers later. The 4 Huletts had a combined rating of 4,000 tons/hour. A 24 hour record was set July 8,1946, when 970 hoppers were loaded with 61,529 tons of iron ore. Under the 4 Huletts ran 4 tracks, one track for each Hulett. Two electric "shunts" (one between tracks 1 & 2 and the other between tracks 3 & 4) ran on narrow gauge track to move the train hoppers into position. Each shunt had two arms, one on each side to move cars on either of the 2 tracks. The electricity came from a covered third rail underneath the shunts, between the rails. The PRR also had a ten-ton-bucket Hulett, built circa 1905 in Erie, PA and a ten-tonner in Buffalo, NY. The second article appeared in the "Keystone" of Winter 1987, followed by a summary in the Spring 1988 issue. Hope this helps. Dennis Sautters ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:47:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... In a message dated 98-09-25 13:00:18 EDT, Mark D Bej wrote: << Subj: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... Date: 98-09-25 13:00:18 EDT On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Ken Reinert wrote: > > Mark Bej wrote: > > Bill, correct me if I'm wrong ... is Park Jct. not where RDG and B&O > > met ... closer to Center City, right near the Museum? Did Conrail > > not move the name to the location of the new junction? > > Park Jct. was where the RDG and B&O met -- heading east, one could > either make a left turn and run on the City Branch through a cut and a > ramp and end up at Race (Reading Terminal), or go straight into the > tunnel beneath the Art Museum. The City Branch was abandoned several > years ago (prior to 1983), so the requirement of having an > interlocking there went away. Right. So to answer my question (a bit more directly), Park Jct. was right at the northern end of the museum tunnel, n'est pas? So Conrail, in calling the junction near the RDG bridge has moved the name RR-west about a mile, yes? >> 1) tunnel is not "beneath" the Art Museum, but if "front" of it (front being the side of the Museum facing City Hall). 2) "RR-west" leads to question as to what "directions" the Reading and B&O used in Philadelphia (thinking of the Southern Pacific, where everything was "east" of the Ferry Building). A Reading train running from the City Subway over Columbia Bridge would be "westbound" at least as far as the Falls Bridge(s), where it could continue either "westbound" toward Reading on the old main line, or turn "eastbound" up the Falls grade; but how 'bout a B&O train? It would travel in the same physical direction as the Reading train, but would always be going "eastbound" (Baltimore to Jersey City). Did B&O trains magically change their direction of travel between Park Jct. and Falls??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:45:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Off-topic request... > Can anyone out there recommend to me some folks knowledgable about the > history of the Erie RR in the 19th century? I inherited an artifact that > reportedly was from the Erie RR display at the Philadelphia Centennial > Expostion of 1876 and would like to try to verify this. Any help or advice > would be appreciated. Yes ... but I can't remember his name now. Call the University of Akron, their history department, and ask; I'm sure they'll know the prof's name immediately. Roger Somebody ...? Area code is 330. ====> H. Roger Grant: his history on Erie is more concerned with its lingering ====> "death", rather than the 19th century. Describe the artifact. ====> Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:45:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Off-topic request... > Can anyone out there recommend to me some folks knowledgable about the > history of the Erie RR in the 19th century? I inherited an artifact that > reportedly was from the Erie RR display at the Philadelphia Centennial > Expostion of 1876 and would like to try to verify this. Any help or advice > would be appreciated. Yes ... but I can't remember his name now. Call the University of Akron, their history department, and ask; I'm sure they'll know the prof's name immediately. Roger Somebody ...? Area code is 330. ====> H. Roger Grant: his history on Erie is more concerned with its lingering ====> "death", rather than the 19th century. Describe the artifact. ====> Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:12:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] Depots, Cabins and Football For those concercerned with existant PRR Depots and Cabin Cars I visited Ada Ohio (near Lima on the P Ft W & C - Lines West Main Line) Their 1887 PRR Depot is in good shape - looks like it has been converted to some sort of a Community Center - and displayed with it is N-5b # 477779 Built Altoona - 1941 As for the Football Mount Union College ( 3 time Division III Defending National Champions) - Alliance Ohio (also on the PRR main - at the junction of the P Ft W & C and the C & P) Managed to extend it's winning streak to 31 - longest in all Divisions of College football - by defeating Ohio Northern University 42 - 37 There is also a 44 tonner - painted blue no reporting marks - on the grain elevaor siding west of the station in Ada and north of the College Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] UPDATE" 24 Hours at Harrisburg" Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:43:33 -0400 Jerry, Excellent update to your "24 Hours at Harrisburg" masterpiece!!! Thanks!!! Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Friday, September 25, 1998 6:25 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] UPDATE" 24 Hours at Harrisburg" > > > I've made substantial additions to "24 Hours at Harrisburg", my > chronology of train movements. > > See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html > > Using the New York Division's "Makeup of Trains" book, all westbound > trains originating in New York now include complete consist information, > including head-end equipment AND exact car names. > > Next to come will be eastbound trains terminating in New York, using the > same source. > > I'd like to find a Maryland Division book by the same title, to provide > the same info for Washington originating/terminating trains. My source on > the first one, Chuck Blardone, doesn't have one. It needs to be dated > 9/24/54. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:11:46 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] car 1000 bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > 1. Why would Anheuser-Busch have such a car to begin with? > The car was August (Gussie) Busch's private car--had Cardinal heralds on the lower sides about over the trucks. I saw it in St. Louis in 1959 - either at Union Station or at the Museum of Transport...Think I have a snapshot somewhere--will have to dig into the archives. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:23:43 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Hulett Electric Unloader Jeff Levine wrote: > > "Can" anyone out there give me any information; history, general use of, > >etc., of the Hulett Electric Unloader? Cliffie Stone has built an operating model of a Hulett in O Scale, which operates on his model rr. He displays it at the West Springfield, Mass, train show, scheduled for Jan 20-31, 1999. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 08:21:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR in 1869 Where did the PRR rank in size among the country's railroads in 1869? .The date the Golden Spike was driven at Promontory, Utah A current TV ad by MCI shows the joining of the Central Pacific and Union Pacific Rail Roads, With the voice over caption that the Worlds two largest rail roads were merged. We know they were not merged, but rather end to end connected. Were these two rail roads the world largest at that time? Or is MCI playing Clinton in all aspects of the AD? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:32:41 -0500 From: jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us Subject: [PRR] Heletts Thanks to all who helped with information on the Heletts. Received some excellent information. Jeff Levine ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:18:35 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Station colors, building colors Hello, What were the standard colors used on trackside buildings for the PRR? I've got two small country stations, a signal tower, a water tower (wood) and a larger wood station in N-scale. Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:23:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fort Wayne; was: alternative operating plans From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) If the snow's that deep that it will be scraped off double stacks by the signal bridges, getting there ain't gonna be any fun. A foot and a half or so of snow will tie this town in knots. Everybody that lived here has tales about the 1967 (22") and 1976 (21") blizzards. Pat Egan (no web access) On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Mark D Bej writes: >On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, John Cooper wrote: > >> >> I believe that the clearance issue with double-stacks was also a >factor in >> removing the catenary. > >Speaking of double-stacks ... > >I forgot to mention in my brief description of my recent Chicago trip >that, >as I was leaving Chicago on the Skyway (I-90) ... well ahead of rush >hour, >thank God ... I managed to watch a double-stack leaving town on the >parallel >Fort Wayne main line. > >Several round-ended PRR signal bridges are still in place there. I >thought >it was bad enough that the first bridge provided only about 2 feet of >clearance. But I about died as I watched the train pass under the >signal >bridge just northwest (RR-west) of the South Chicago lift bridges. I >could >not believe it. The double-stacks were clearing the bridge by *less* >than >a foot, it seemed. Sure, I was 4 lanes of traffic away, and one must >take >parallax error into account, and all that. But it is *close*! One or >two >rounds of dumping ballast for track maintenance, and those babies >won't >clear any more. You Chicagolanders should get out that way this >winter >and watch the snow/ice being shaved off the tops of the double stacks! > >-- >Mark > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pennsygg1@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:50:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR in NYC Does anyone have information on the powerplant( it is still standing in Long Island City, I would love to look inside) that the Pennsy made to be used in the electrification of the New York Zone i.e.: Sunnyside Yard plus the LIRR? Thank s Mike Capone ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:44:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: [PRR] Regions/Divisions - circa 1963? Requesting some clarification/discussion from the collective intellect. The basic question: What was the regional makup of the PRR in 1963 - how many, names and rough geographical boundaries? Particularly, what region/division would Emporium, PA fall into in 1963? The detailed qestion: I am modeling/researching the Buffalo Main Line from Renova, PA north to the PA/NY state line. Particular focus is on the Emporium to Keating Pass section. Is it accurate to describe this as the Central Region, Northern Division in 1963? I am a bit confused because of the excellent work "Pennsy Diesel Years" vol 5 covers the company reorganization that took place in 1955. This book clearly documents the "new" nine region makeup of the PRR. Emporium would be squarely in the "Northern" region. The book also tells that this reorg didn't last long - but it doesn't say how long it did last and what happened? Did they revert back to the pre-1955 organization - or did they come up with something new again. Also - Cabin Cars were often painted w/ their "Region." How closely in time were Cabin Car paint jobs/regional markings and the actual organization? To be proto-accurate, is it important that Cabin's match regional designations of the chosen time period - or was it common for those sort of details to lag? As always - pointers, RTFM's, etc are welcome Thanks in advance for any information, Regards, Ed -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, System Support Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Enterprise Services Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6460 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Breaking up is hard to do...at ZOO.... Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:33:22 -0400 (EDT) BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > 2) "RR-west" leads to question as to what "directions" the Reading > and B&O used in Philadelphia (thinking of the Southern Pacific, > where everything was "east" of the Ferry Building). A Reading train > running from the City Subway over Columbia Bridge would be > "westbound" at least as far as the Falls Bridge(s), where it could > continue either "westbound" toward Reading on the old main line, or > turn "eastbound" up the Falls grade; but how 'bout a B&O train? It > would travel in the same physical direction as the Reading train, > but would always be going "eastbound" (Baltimore to Jersey City). > Did B&O trains magically change their direction of travel between > Park Jct. and Falls??? The BeanO train would indeed be going westward between Park Jct. and Falls. Same as, say, a westward train from Allentown to Harrisburg that works in Reading Yard runs eastward from Belt Line Jct. (old names :-) to Oley. Or (since this *is* the PRR list) a DC to NY passenger train that runs north from Washington to Philly, leaves Penn *westward* via the 36th Street Connection (dunno, switch failure? MW work?), then eastward from Zoo. The direction of traffic is defined in the timetable, and in certain cases, it is entirely possible for a train to be going in the opposite "railroad" direction without physically changing directions. (Even on the SP: Amtrak 11/14, the _Coast Starlight_, ran as SP trains 12/13 south of Oakland; AMTK 11 bacame SP 12 and SP 13 bacame AMTK 14 in order to preserve the eastbounds-are-even, westbounds-are-odd numbering scheme.) Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR in 1869 Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:20:40 -0400 Dear TVPedro@aol.com, You asked: "Or is MCI playing Clinton in all aspects of the AD?" The answer is: No, MCI is playing NIXON in its' aspects of the ad. Seriously, can't we keep "politics" out of these postings? And I too, should not be mentioning Nixon -- so let's all stop with the political comments. Thanks! Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > TVPedro@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 1998 8:21 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR in 1869 > > > Where did the PRR rank in size among the country's railroads in 1869? .The > date the > Golden Spike was driven at Promontory, Utah > > A current TV ad by MCI shows the joining of the Central Pacific and Union > Pacific Rail Roads, With the voice over caption that the Worlds > two largest > rail roads were merged. We know they were not merged, but rather > end to end > connected. Were these two rail roads the world largest at that > time? Or is > MCI playing Clinton in all aspects of the AD? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:01:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] car 1000 In a message dated 98-09-26 21:53:56 EDT, bubbles@visi.net writes: 1. Why would Anheuser-Busch have such a car to begin with? <> <> <> ***hi, rich...same with n- j- t.on P-RSL property...even # is for AC to Philly, vice versa.... I thought that the B&O's retained their own train numbers ( below 100) all the way; to Jersey City via RDG / CNJ..that way on CNJ...........( need RDG ETT and BnO to prove, cannot find now..)...more common way in our area, train retains number for entire trip, even over different RR's.....PRR-NH, NY&LB, etc.... .The RDG trains naturally retained their 600-series numbers right thru...becoming 5600 series after All-day Plan, to fit into PRR train number series with no conflicts..Bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:20:49 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Sanborn maps... Greetings to George and the group, Penn State's Pattee Library has the complete set for Pennsylvania on microfilm. I am pretty sure that they do not allow the film to go out for inter-library loan. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 11:20 AM 9/25/98 CST, George Pierson wrote: >Hi, everyone, > >I was visiting the map collection at the U of Chicago recently, looking for >Sanborn Ins. maps. Not surprisingly they have a good collection for >Illinois but not much else. Anyone have suggestions about collections of >Sanborns for PA, NY, and WV that are within a few hours of Chicago? Or are >Sanborns available on microfilm? Thanks for your help. > >Sincerely, > >George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu >Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Port" Subject: [PRR] Rail Fest Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:05:19 -0400 Hi All Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who answered my request for information about the Altoona Rail Fest. However,I will be unable to attend due to a change in plans Thanks again Dan Port ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: [PRR] PRR Talkers at Railfest '98 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:48:02 -0500 I have been off list for about a week due to computer upgrade problems, so if this question was addressed in the past few days I apologize for the redundancy. What time and where will the PRR-Talk list members meet in Altoona on Saturday for Railfest '98? Bill Laird bill.laird@coastalcorp.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:09:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Regions/Divisions - circa 1963? On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > > Requesting some clarification/discussion from the collective intellect. > > The basic question: > What was the regional makup of the PRR in 1963 - how many, names and > rough geographical boundaries? Particularly, what region/division would > Emporium, PA fall into in 1963? My timetables are at home, not here at work, so a preliminary answer to your question, for 1963 (that is, post-reorganization) would be Northern Region. Northern Region (like all of them) had several Divisions. There was a Williamsport, and I believe a Buffalo, within the Northern Region. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:08:58 +0000 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Hulett Electric Unloader There also was an extensive article in "Trains" magazine a few years ago (4 or 5, I think.) Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:44:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in 1869 On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 TVPedro@aol.com wrote: > Where did the PRR rank in size among the country's railroads in 1869? .The > date the > Golden Spike was driven at Promontory, Utah > > A current TV ad by MCI shows the joining of the Central Pacific and Union > Pacific Rail Roads, With the voice over caption that the Worlds two largest > rail roads were merged. We know they were not merged, but rather end to end > connected. Were these two rail roads the world largest at that time? Or is > MCI playing Clinton in all aspects of the AD? They may have been the largest in terms of length of trackage (remember that at this time, PRR ran only from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, or about 300 miles). But they were not largest in terms of traffic volume / profits. PRR and NYC were well established, according to at least 2 sources, as #1 and #2 by 1875. (See _The Wreck of the Penn Central_ and PRR's _Centennial History_.) -- Mark D. Bej ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] FW: Implementation Update, 9/25/1998 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 98 11:07:41 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Read this in the latest NS Implementation Update and thought it might be of interest... > > The U.S. Postal Service has created a special hand stamp for > >Railfest '98, a two-day celebration of the rich railroad heritage of > >Altoona, Pa., to be held October 3 and 4 (see IU, September 18). To > >commemorate the Conrail transaction, the stamp appears on a special > >envelope with a four-color reproduction of an NS train rounding the > >bend at Horseshoe Curve. The American flag stamp will be > canceled with > >a special Railfest '98 hand stamp. The cancellation will > have the date > >and the words "Altoona" and "Railfest '98" on a railroad > crossing sign. > > The stamp, cancellation, cachet and protective cover cost $2. > >They can be purchased at Railfest or by sending $2 to: Postmaster, > >Tipton, Pa., 16684. The stamps will be available for 65 days > following > >Railfest. Rob Schoenberg http://prr.railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RailFesters: Spread the Word Date: Mon, 28 Sep 98 11:05:45 -0400 From: Jerry For those of you attending RailFest this weekend, this is a good opportunity to spread the word about "PRR-Talk". Going into last year's event we had around 100 subscribers. Now we have over 250! If you have a decent printer and wouldn't mind, please download the flyer from http://kc.pennsyrr.com/KCFlyer.pdf and print 100 copies or so. Then lay them out somewhere in Altoona for folks to pick up. The file is only 23K, so it's a quick download and print. I'll take 100 or so to the museum. Other good locations are at the Shop Tour, at the passenger station, and at The Curve. Thanks a bunch. See you there! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:15:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Sanborn maps... On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Drew McGhee wrote: > Greetings to George and the group, > > Penn State's Pattee Library has the complete set for Pennsylvania on > microfilm. I am pretty sure that they do not allow the film to go out for > inter-library loan. Likewise CMU's Hunt Library has PA, OH, and I think NY and IL are the other 2 states. Not too close to Chicago though:-( -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:34:47 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] a little help from my friends Hello all, I am writing to the List to ask your assistance on the final phase of the business preparations. I am hoping someone (or some two, actually) out there can provide some technical expertise. The documents for the Stock Issue are complete and ready to go to the various State regulatory agencies for approval. Once this is done, we can issue stock and start the fund raising. Problem is: in order to register a stock, we need to have: * a review by a CPA of the basis upon which we make our market projections (this means having a CPA look at our statistics to be sure we have a reasonable projection of sales and market share); * a review by a licensed Attorney stating that the Offering is legally issued, fully paid and non-assessable and binding on the Corporation (this means having a lawyer check our paper trail to be sure all the resolutions, etc., have been done so that the Corporation is legally bound to the stock issue.) Where things get complicated is that I am financing this operation out of my not-particularly-generous paychecks, and if I have to save up the money for these proceedings, it will delay things another 3-4 months. So I am looking for a CPA and an Attorney at Law (any kind of law) who is willing to do a bit of pro bono for The Hobby. I know this is what these folks do for a living, but I hope I can find someone who would be willing to indulge a bit. If anyone out there in E-land can help, please get ahold of me. Thank you! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] Hulett Unloaders Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:10:04 -0400 Greetings to the group, I found a little more information and some photos of the Erie Huletts in Cleveland at: http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/before/eriedock.html These were truly remarkable machines and, perhaps, a little scary in their size and appearance. I would love to have seen them operate. Any books or videos out there about them? Jerry Breon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Talkers at Railfest '98 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:41:29 -0400 Welcome back Bill, Carl Haslett at chaslett@cse.I-3com.com has been organizing the group. As I understand it, we will meet in front of the Railroader's Memorial Museum Saturday morning about 8:30am. Is this correct guys? Drew McGhee is organizing the dinner at Hoss's for 7:00pm. See you Saturday. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Laird, Bill To: 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com' Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 1:18 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Talkers at Railfest '98 >I have been off list for about a week due to computer upgrade problems, >so if this question was addressed in the past few days I apologize for >the redundancy. > >What time and where will the PRR-Talk list members meet in Altoona on >Saturday for Railfest '98? > >Bill Laird >bill.laird@coastalcorp.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:08:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Station colors, building colors In a message dated 9/27/98 8:03:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, relliott@mail.telis.org writes: > Hello, > What were the standard colors used on trackside buildings for the PRR? > I've got two small country stations, a signal tower, a water tower > (wood) and a larger wood station in N-scale. > > Thanks, > Roger Elliott Roger, You should get ready for some interesting answers on this one. The fans and modelers have been scrapping over this one for years... 1. Some literalist will offer Pennsy "light tint" and "dark tint". He may go on into the theory of contrasting light and shades of umber being a harmonious and tasteful combination. 2. Someone else will tell you to use the color drift cards for these colors, which I believe PRRT&HS has sold out of, at least for present. 3. Another party will offer color specs from Sherwin-Williams, Glidden, DuPont, etc. that approximate Pennsy building standards. Knowledgeable modelers, as opposed to prototypers, could offer a different set of correct but useless answers... 1. First, you want to paint models and not your house. Small patches of a color don't look like big patches of the same color. 2. Second, you'll probably be building and displaying the models under artificial light, which most of the time means flourescent light, which is very green. This means that a literal color match to the prototype is pretty close to physically impossible. 3. Third, once a building weathers for a while, the pigments will begin to bleach (there may be a more chemically correct term for this). Thus, old structures have blander and blander tints of what they started out as. So much for prototyping (para 1) and for color modeling theory (para 2). In the real world of modeling, I see modelers experimenting with shades of light umber and dark umber, until they find something that "looks right to them". For example, when we started painting the PRR structures on the Panhandle, Katie and I originally used a light tint with a slightly greenish caste. Later, we found we liked a more neutral light beige; it better matched our perception of what we saw on surviving buildings and in color slides. At that time, we started using Polly S PF62 Sahara Sand for the light tint and PF?? Chocolate for the dark tint. For a really bleached-out look, add a little more light gray or white. While Polly S is now history, the same colors should still be available in Polly Scale as military colors. BTW, we found that selecting paints for buildings is a different decision from selecting paints for airbrushing rolling stock. Buildings need paints that dry flat, seal the pores in wood and cardboard to leave them more waterproof, and won't attack even the wimpiest of European plastics. Also, since you spend a lot of time touching up in this work, the paint shouldn't give off toxic fumes while drying. For your health and sanity, I suggest taking the time to find out which paint you like best for hand brushing, and standardizing on it for buildings and figures. After making your selection, how about letting us know what YOU like best (both paint line and color selection)? Rick Tipton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:40:56 -0400 From: Brian Brooks Subject: [PRR] patch panels Greetings, PRR folk, I read Bill Darnaby's article in the November MR. He suggests using a self-adhesive foil to simulate patch panels on X29 models. Has anyone tried something similar? What are some good ways (beyond scribing a line) to represent these patches? I think they add a lot to a postwar X28, X29 or X31 model. Brian Brooks ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:39:22 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Little Creek Track Chart From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:21:18 -0400 "Steve Bundick" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDE9F8.2EC70CC0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Was looking through some of the mail on J Briton's Keystone Crossings >= >and saw that you were looking for some track plans in the Norfolk >area. = >I have a PRR track chart showing Little Creek to St. Julian Ave. It is >= >probably circa late 50's or early 60's. The chart also includes >Delmarva = >showing single track. I think the 2nd track was removed around 56. >I'm = >from Pocomoke, Md, and have big interest in the Delmarva line. Let me >= >know if you are interested in a copy of the chart. It's only about a = >page. > >-Steve > Steve, Would love a copy. My Email won't download attachments, so I'll need a hard copy. Send me the details! David W. "SSGT" York ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:55:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR F48 flat cars I received a phone call today from CR Hollidaysburg regarding former PRR class F48. These are 89' in length over end sills, with what appears to be 6' bulkheads. They were wondering if I could find out who built these cars and if anyone had information on the draft gears. Does anyone out there have any info that can give the CR folks some help. They do have their tracing D-463849-A. The cars were built in 1965. Thanks for the help. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] model building paint Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:20:12 -0400 Hi Group, I enjoyed reading Rick Tipton's recent post about the use of color with respect to model buildings. It brought to mind a tip that Don Reed of Microscale Models gave me a few years ago. The acrylic paints sold in craft stores for painting ceramics work great on model buildings and their details. There are literally hundreds of colors available such as Rust, Terra Cotta, Black Brown (my personal favorite for shingle roofs) Red Iron Oxide, etc, etc, etc. These paints dry quickly and dry perfectly flat. They come in 1 oz and 2 oz plastic bottles and cost about 1/3 of what the railroad hobby paints cost. The two brands that I use most are Duncan and Ceramcoat. Check them out for yourselves and you'll be surprised at how well they work. Jerry Breon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:19:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy colors digitized To all-- I think I got this HTML thing licked and actually may figure out how to upkoad a web page. Just in case, does anybody have he proper digital palette settings for such PRR standards as FCC, DGLE, Tuscan, Deluxe Gold, Depot buff. Only hassle is that someone deleted the website's cabin car spotting guide. The Panhandle Pages will eventually include Fairbanks Morse and Doodlebug spotting guides. Donations of postable images welcomed. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:41:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... ***From form PL 78, Conductor's Memoranda...... Toledo Division, Train No..424, 2nd... section, eng no...2362, Engman...Stacy, fireman not shown, Left...Toledo...at 450am, Jan 5th, 1904. and arrived at...NC Tower...at 630 am, Jan 6, 1904, Condr...Crum, Flagman ...McConnell, Brakeman...Davenport. The consist begins with: C&P 2954 gon..mt..T to NC..(All T to NC in front of train, all MT gon's) O&W 4267 , C&M 3169 , PRR 16326 ,MC 894, PRR 28962, WNYP 8666, P Co. 6745 ( diff from PRR) I&N 391, WCCCo 184, .....CPR 39301, PH 18226, etc. No cabin car shown....Weather repoert for trip: cold..... It must have been a bear of a trip, took 25 hours and 40 minutes. The best trip time is a lite engine ( 7901) on New Years' Day, 3 hours.....Mansfield to Tiffin.. >From Mansfield to NC Tower, lite, 6 hours...average frt time, good run, 10 hours... Some winter trips consumer over two days..!!!.. Something for the P L W guys.........Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:35:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] hulett video footage (i think) i remember someone asking if there is any footage of the huletts in operation regarding to the question about the hulett unloaders. correct me if im wrong, but if you watch the opening credits of the movie "major league", during the song in the beginning that goes "cleveland, city of light, city of magic" there is a couple-second shot of what i beleive are the huletts, in operation. since they are no longer used, i can only assume the movie prouction company had them fired up just for that 3 second shot in the opening opf the movie. sean mcd ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:36:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Depots, Cabins and Football In a message dated 9/27/98 12:43:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << versity 42 - 37 There is also a 44 tonner - painted blue no reporting marks - on the grain elevaor siding west of the station in Ada and north of the College Dick Ross Cleveland >> I know its slightly off topc but its sounds like you're talking 'bout my third favorite loco (behind the T-1 4-4-4-4 and the Lima-Hamilton-Baldwin LS25 (soooo ugly it's beautiful)one of Wright-Patterson AFB's railroad dept. 44 tonners. Fairborn and Wright-Patt just don't seem th esame without those cute little engines I always remeber there (and that's bask to 1958 -59) About five years ago USAF had the audacity to closedown its railroad operations and sell off its cars, three 44-tonners and pony crane with a clamshell bucket. Problem is that Wright-Patt is about halfway between G-M's Detroit-Allison diesel engine plant served by Conrail's Moraine yard south of Dayton and the Navistar Inbternational heavy truck assembly plant along the Erie/EL Dayton branch and the Conraiil's ex-NYC/Mad River & Lake Erie Springfield- Bellfontaine line. Two protruck congressmen and one protruck U.S. Senator (Mike DeWine's really from Yellow Springs not Cedarville and was the Navistar plant's congressman from 1983-1991)living in them two counties in which the base is located. GM and Internaitonal combines employ nearly as many people from the DAyton Metro area as does the U.S. Air Force so its not surprising Wright-Patt's three steam plants now recieve coal via truck even though the Conrail-cum-N.S. Columbus-Cincinnati mainline (ex-Big Four/NYC and Erie?E-L Dayton Branch) bisects the base and Fairborn Ohio. And they closed the railroad department before I coulld get shots of its three 44-tonners USAF Nos. 1859, 1861 and 1862 (I think, I''ll to check on the numbers.) Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:08:23 -0400 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: [PRR] PRR @ St. Paris, Ohio Hello, I'm doing some research for a future modeling project and am looking for information on the PRRs operations at Saint Paris Ohio as it related to the DT&I. More specifically, I'm in need of data (circa early 1960s) on the PRR's trackage @ St. Paris, any realted buildings that may have existed, and which PRR trains stopped at St. Paris for interchange work. Any information anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, -- David Mikulec DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net The Nostalgia Trip Homepage http://www.users.mis.net/~shazada/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:59:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] P85 Kitbashing Pennsy folks, I was planning to do up a couple of P85's , these being such a beautifully Pennsy signature car, but thought maybe I best ask some advice.I know Union Station makes the side in plastic of some sort for use with ECW "core" kits, but the friendly local hobby shops around here either can't or won't get any in. I've seen a 14-4 side by this company and it looks pretty good.But on the other hand, Brass car sides makes the same side, and seeing as I have a number of surplus AHM smoothside cars, the expense would be about the same(and the Rivorossi trucks seem better). My first question is, has any body made both/either version and which one is better? The second question, whcih I think I already know, is whether P85,s ever operated on the Buffalo-Harrisburg trains? Is that just too far out of their territory for regular use? Another related question is what happened to the passenger car email list? Anybody know if they're temporarily out of service or gone, period? How we gonna find out about those Branchline heavies without that list? Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:06:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in 1869 In a message dated 9/28/98 12:05:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << > A current TV ad by MCI shows the joining of the Central Pacific and Union > Pacific Rail Roads, With the voice over caption that the Worlds two largest > rail roads were merged. We know they were not merged, but rather end to end > connected. Were these two rail roads the world largest at that time? Or is > MCI playing Clinton in all aspects of the AD? They may have been the largest in terms of length of trackage (remember that at this time, PRR ran only from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, or about 300 miles). But they were not largest in terms of traffic volume / profits. PRR and NYC were well established, according to at least 2 sources, as #1 and #2 by 1875. (See The Wreck of the Penn Central and PRR's Centennial History) >> By the end of 1869, the PRR controlled a lot more than 300 miles of track. Why in 1867 it owned the 161 miles of the Panhandle Rail Road (soon to be "The Panhandle," the PC&StL) between the Mongahela River and the Ohio Central, 33 miles of track jointly owned with the B&O linking the Panhandle with Columbus and points west through the then still-independent Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia RR of for which the PRR was the primary secured debtor. The amount of trackage west controlled by the PRR west of Pittsburgh exploded during the then five or six years. The Erie, under Jay Gould made a swipe at another line heavily indebted to the PRR, the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central, for a route west via Urbana where it (later the PRR's double- tracked Columbus-Chicago "Freight line") cross Gould's Atlantic & Great Western (later the Erie/EL Dayton branch mentioned in my Wright-Patterson post). The board on Broad Street reacted swiftly by calling in the majority of secured debt owed the PRR by the Fort Wayne System, the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago. The Fort Wayne's board made the mistake of thinking itself so independent that it could participate in the development of a St. Louis line with Vanderbilt's Big Four/Water lever route group. The 999-year lease of the Fort Wayne was quickly followed by the 999-year lease of the CC&IC. Both PFtW&C and the CC&IC entered into operating agreements with the PRR. This gave the PRR lords on Broad Street effective control of more than 1,000 miles of track west of Pittsburgh. I think the CC&IC had more than 900 miles and the Fort Wayne more than 400. With now vast western holdings reaching Chicago and heading for St. Louis, the PRR was well on its way to being the nation's biggest railroad in 1869 if it didn't already have that title. The Little Miami and the Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley (191 miles and 142 miles respectively) were acquired or leased in 1870 and the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis and Grand Rapids & Indiana (probably another 600 miles) in 1871 so that by 1872 the PRR controlled more than 2,000 miles of track WEST OF PITTSBURGH Lines West Forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:00:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 Kitbashing In a message dated 9/28/98 9:10:13 PM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Another related question is what happened to the passenger car email list? Anybody know if they're temporarily out of service or gone, period? How we gonna find out about those Branchline heavies without that list? >> They had some server /equipment problems. my understanding is that they hope to have it fixed and be up again. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:53:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Sanborn maps... Has it been covered on this list that the Library of Congress has long-range plans to put the entire Sanborn map collection on the web? A November 1997 press release announced the plan. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:06:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy colors digitized On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > I think I got this HTML thing licked and actually may figure out how to > upkoad a web page. Just in case, does anybody have he proper digital palette > settings for such PRR standards as FCC, DGLE, Tuscan, Deluxe Gold, Depot buff. > Only hassle is that someone deleted the website's cabin car spotting guide. > The Panhandle Pages will eventually include Fairbanks Morse and Doodlebug > spotting guides. Donations of postable images welcomed. > > Tom V. Tom, just like Rick Tipton's post about building colors, your question can be debated, and has been debated, for years if not decades. Inks for paper do come in standard colors. There are several schemes, all proprietary, of which Pantone(R) is the best known. But when it comes to RGB settings for computer screens, forget it. There is no single way to do it. I've watched the colors on my home PC change when I installed a different video card. Not only that, but the phosphors are slightly different between different CRT manufacturers, and even (however slightly) between different monitors of the same model number. And these issues would exist *even if* the red, green, and blue in "RGB" were precisely defined, which they are not. On top of that, ambient light, the colors immediately adjacent, etc., make a big perceptual difference. (which is why, e.g., Kodak sells a 'medium gray' paper for light measurement purposes, and for color comparison purposes) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Station colors, building colors Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:04:47 -0500 Roger, Rick is pretty much right on track with this one ! But the only draft card from the PRRT&HS that is sold out is the freight car red card. There are 13 cards still available for 2.40 each or 25.00 for all 13 cards, from Ivan Frantz at 1126 Hanover Rd. York, PA. 17404. ( as of the Autumn printing of the Keystone) You will also have to decide on what year your model will represent. The colors in the late 1800's through the teens, and early twenties were made of natural pigments which were basic colors ( yellows, browns, reds, etc.) In the twenty's through the late forty's and early fifty's the yellows looked more like a sandstone ( cardboard color Badge) Browns were a dark chocolate, and windows( reds) were bright red or Burgundy color. In the fifty's allot of stations were painted light gray with dark gray trim, and red/burgundy windows. BUT THERE ARE NO PERFECT RULES ! I am working on the restoration of the New Freedom Station which will be painted to match the 1925-1945 shade of color ( the lighter shades). The colors to be used will match the "J" Tower at Strasbourg, PA. which matches the Draft Cards. I also painted a "American Model Builders" model of the Station ( a 1922 Version ) with the natural pigments ( early years shade which turns out as quite yellow ) , I have shown it to some of the older residents in town and they seam to agree that it is close in color to the original, before the soot and dirt of the trains hit it. ( which made everything dirty ) Bottom line - please yourself, no two boxcars looked the same, and neither did the stations ! Bill Ps: Station completion to be in late 1999 ! ---------- > From: RickTipton@aol.com > To: relliott@mail.telis.org; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; ldsig@CS.UTK.EDU > Subject: Re: [PRR] Station colors, building colors > Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 5:08 PM > > In a message dated 9/27/98 8:03:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > relliott@mail.telis.org writes: > > > Hello, > > What were the standard colors used on trackside buildings for the PRR? > > I've got two small country stations, a signal tower, a water tower > > (wood) and a larger wood station in N-scale. > > > > Thanks, > > Roger Elliott > Roger, > You should get ready for some interesting answers on this one. The fans and > modelers have been scrapping over this one for years... > 1. Some literalist will offer Pennsy "light tint" and "dark tint". He may go > on into the theory of contrasting light and shades of umber being a harmonious > and tasteful combination. > 2. Someone else will tell you to use the color drift cards for these colors, > which I believe PRRT&HS has sold out of, at least for present. > 3. Another party will offer color specs from Sherwin-Williams, Glidden, > DuPont, etc. that approximate Pennsy building standards. > > Knowledgeable modelers, as opposed to prototypers, could offer a different set > of correct but useless answers... > 1. First, you want to paint models and not your house. Small patches of a > color don't look like big patches of the same color. > 2. Second, you'll probably be building and displaying the models under > artificial light, which most of the time means flourescent light, which is > very green. This means that a literal color match to the prototype is pretty > close to physically impossible. > 3. Third, once a building weathers for a while, the pigments will begin to > bleach (there may be a more chemically correct term for this). Thus, old > structures have blander and blander tints of what they started out as. > > So much for prototyping (para 1) and for color modeling theory (para 2). In > the real world of modeling, I see modelers experimenting with shades of light > umber and dark umber, until they find something that "looks right to them". > For example, when we started painting the PRR structures on the Panhandle, > Katie and I originally used a light tint with a slightly greenish caste. > > Later, we found we liked a more neutral light beige; it better matched our > perception of what we saw on surviving buildings and in color slides. At that > time, we started using Polly S PF62 Sahara Sand for the light tint and PF?? > Chocolate for the dark tint. For a really bleached-out look, add a little > more light gray or white. While Polly S is now history, the same colors > should still be available in Polly Scale as military colors. > > BTW, we found that selecting paints for buildings is a different decision from > selecting paints for airbrushing rolling stock. Buildings need paints that > dry flat, seal the pores in wood and cardboard to leave them more waterproof, > and won't attack even the wimpiest of European plastics. Also, since you > spend a lot of time touching up in this work, the paint shouldn't give off > toxic fumes while drying. > > For your health and sanity, I suggest taking the time to find out which paint > you like best for hand brushing, and standardizing on it for buildings and > figures. After making your selection, how about letting us know what YOU like > best (both paint line and color selection)? > > Rick Tipton > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:25:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Station colors, building colors (reply) Roger and all, Rick is absolutely right regarding "the prototype" (I hate that word) and "the models," you have a several factors to consider. Let me expand on Rick's thoughts just a bit. Rick is right the longer any paint sits exposed to the elements the more the paint breaks down "chalks" and oxidizes causing a bleaching, bleeding and streaking effect, but atmosphere has a bleaching effect to. The further that your eye moves away from a subject the "grayer" the object becomes, it's a fact. So it should follow that the smaller an object is the grayer the object should become, right well.... So in this train of thought N Scale models should be a bit "duller" than those in larger scales to make them appear more scale, right? I think so and if I read Rick he thinks so. Just, remember light falls on a subject and distorts true color, your eye picks up on it and creates "shades" and "shadows." To compliment your interior lighting in your layout room regardless of the type of lights you use you need to "add" these effect to your "world." You would be amazed at how much more realistic your "world" will look if you shade and shadow your equipment and structures. The military figure and armor modelers have been doing this for years and quite successfully. We need to incorporate this thinking into our modeling to bring our modeling into a more realistic realm. Avoiding dusting of your layout doesn't quite do it. And, oh by the way, don't forget the red sash on the windows. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST << in a message dated 9/27/98 8:03:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, relliott@mail.telis.org writes: > Hello, > What were the standard colors used on trackside buildings for the PRR? > I've got two small country stations, a signal tower, a water tower > (wood) and a larger wood station in N-scale. > > Thanks, > Roger Elliott In a message dated 9/28/98 3:58:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: Roger, You should get ready for some interesting answers on this one. The fans and modelers have been scrapping over this one for years... 1. Some literalist will offer Pennsy "light tint" and "dark tint." He may go on into the theory of contrasting light and shades of umber being a harmonious and tasteful combination. 2. Someone else will tell you to use the color drift cards for these colors, which I believe PRRT&HS has sold out of, at least for present. 3. Another party will offer color specs from Sherwin-Williams, Glidden, DuPont, etc. that approximate Pennsy building standards. Knowledgeable modelers, as opposed to prototypers, could offer a different set of correct but useless answers... 1. First, you want to paint models and not your house. Small patches of a color don't look like big patches of the same color. 2. Second, you'll probably be building and displaying the models under artificial light, which most of the time means fluorescent light, which is very green. This means that a literal color match to the prototype is pretty close to physically impossible. 3. Third, once a building weathers for a while, the pigments will begin to bleach (there may be a more chemically correct term for this). Thus, old structures have blander and blander tints of what they started out as. So much for prototyping (para 1) and for color modeling theory (para 2). In the real world of modeling, I see modelers experimenting with shades of light umber and dark umber, until they find something that "looks right to them." For example, when we started painting the PRR structures on the Panhandle, Katie and I originally used a light tint with a slightly greenish caste. Later, we found we liked a more neutral light beige; it better matched our perception of what we saw on surviving buildings and in color slides. At that time, we started using Polly S PF62 Sahara Sand for the light tint and PF?? Chocolate for the dark tint. For a really bleached-out look, add a little more light gray or white. While Polly S is now history, the same colors should still be available in Polly Scale as military colors. BTW, we found that selecting paints for buildings is a different decision from selecting paints for airbrushing rolling stock. Buildings need paints that dry flat, seal the pores in wood and cardboard to leave them more waterproof, and won't attack even the wimpiest of European plastics. Also, since you spend a lot of time touching up in this work, the paint shouldn't give off toxic fumes while drying. For your health and sanity, I suggest taking the time to find out which paint you like best for hand brushing, and standardizing on it for buildings and figures. After making your selection, how about letting us know what YOU like best (both paint line and color selection)? Rick Tipton >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:09:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] model building paint Jerry and folks, Just be sure to close the caps very tight. These paints seem to dry out rather quicker than the paints we modeler types usually use. But they're generally all I use for scenery and many structure uses. Thicker than Poly S, but don't mind being thinned. Wish I could remember the colors ("rose" something and " barn red" made the best pinkish brick color I ever used). By the way, isn't that brand "Creamcoat"? Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 Kitbashing Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 05:28:38 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/28/98 9:59 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >I was planning to do up a couple of P85's , these being such a beautifully >Pennsy signature car, but thought maybe I best ask some advice.I know Union >Station makes the side in plastic of some sort for use with ECW "core" kits, >but the friendly local hobby shops around here either can't or won't get any >in. I offer these through "Merchandise Service". See http://www.dsop.com >I've seen a 14-4 side by this company and it looks pretty good.But on the >other hand, Brass car sides makes the same side, and seeing as I have a >number >of surplus AHM smoothside cars, the expense would be about the same(and the >Rivorossi trucks seem better). My first question is, has any body made >both/either version and which one is better? I currently have two of the USP versions under construction, but cannot offer comparison advice. The USP versions, with ECW cores, are easy to work with. >The second question, whcih I >think I already know, is whether P85,s ever operated on the >Buffalo-Harrisburg >trains? Is that just too far out of their territory for regular use? Can't tell you, yet, but keep an eye on "24 Hours at Harrisburg" which includes consist information, including the Buffalo line trains. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 8:09:08 EDT From: Subject: Re: [PRR] model building paint I've thought about using these paints but I wasn't sure how they would airbrush. Has anyone tried to airbrush these craft paints and if so what were your results? Kris ------------- Original Text From: , on 9/28/98 11:09 PM: Jerry and folks, Just be sure to close the caps very tight. These paints seem to dry out rather quicker than the paints we modeler types usually use. But they're generally all I use for scenery and many structure uses. Thicker than Poly S, but don't mind being thinned. Wish I could remember the colors ("rose" something and " barn red" made the best pinkish brick color I ever used). By the way, isn't that brand "Creamcoat"? Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] P85 Kitbashing Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:58:13 -0400 Barry, I have built both the USP and the BCS P85b and would recomend the USP. The two main reasons are that 1 I like working with the all plastic kit. 2 , Using the #1300 core kit lets you put a correct underbody under your car rather then the poor AHM/IHC one. BTW lose the AHM trucks and get something aftermarket. Also these cars could be found anywhere on the system in later years. Neil -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 10:41 PM Subject: [PRR] P85 Kitbashing >Pennsy folks, >I was planning to do up a couple of P85's , these being such a beautifully >Pennsy signature car, but thought maybe I best ask some advice.I know Union >Station makes the side in plastic of some sort for use with ECW "core" kits, >but the friendly local hobby shops around here either can't or won't get any >in. I've seen a 14-4 side by this company and it looks pretty good.But on the >other hand, Brass car sides makes the same side, and seeing as I have a number >of surplus AHM smoothside cars, the expense would be about the same(and the >Rivorossi trucks seem better). My first question is, has any body made >both/either version and which one is better? The second question, whcih I >think I already know, is whether P85,s ever operated on the Buffalo-Harrisburg >trains? Is that just too far out of their territory for regular use? > >Another related question is what happened to the passenger car email list? >Anybody know if they're temporarily out of service or gone, period? How we >gonna find out about those Branchline heavies without that list? >Barry Peltier > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:55:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy colors digitized On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Mark D Bej wrote: > Inks for paper do come in standard colors. There are several schemes, > all proprietary, of which Pantone(R) is the best known. But when it comes > to RGB settings for computer screens, forget it. There is no single way > to do it. I've watched the colors on my home PC change when I installed > a different video card. Not only that, but the phosphors are slightly > different between different CRT manufacturers, and even (however slightly) > between different monitors of the same model number. And these issues > would exist *even if* the red, green, and blue in "RGB" were precisely > defined, which they are not. worse: the color allocation differs depending on whether you have an 8 or 24 bit (or some other depth) color map available, how they chose to split it, and whether it's already full and you need to dither or not. approximation is as close as you'll get, and it won't be "Right(tm)" for everyone -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:00:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Hulett Unloaders Jerry, In the book `Bessemer & Lake Erie' they did have a couple of pages devoted to the Huletts. They were invented in my hometown (Conneaut Ohio) by a Mr. George Hulett. I hope my memory serves me right on this it has been a while since I have read the book. I remember watching them in Conneaut going into the Lakers to scoop out the ore. Alas in the name of progess they too have fallen. Randy "jbreon" on 09/28/98 04:10:04 PM To: "PRR Talk" cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] Hulett Unloaders Greetings to the group, I found a little more information and some photos of the Erie Huletts in Cleveland at: http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/before/eriedock.html These were truly remarkable machines and, perhaps, a little scary in their size and appearance. I would love to have seen them operate. Any books or videos out there about them? Jerry Breon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] patch panels From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 08:42:16 -0400 Greetings, PRR folk, I read Bill Darnaby's article in the November MR. He suggests using a self-adhesive foil to simulate patch panels on X29 models. Has anyone tried something similar? What are some good ways (beyond scribing a line) to represent these patches? I think they add a lot to a postwar X28, X29 or X31 model. Brian Brooks - --------------- And to steam loco tenders! regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re:USP (was P85 Kitbashing) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 08:29:53 -0400 I much prefer the USP side to brass for fluted cars. I have always felt that etched brass fluting looks far too shallow. As to the trucks (IHC vs. ECW) they are both awful. The detail and strength of the ECW leave much to be desired and the IHC trucks are just plain awful. They have too low a profile , ride on 33 inch wheels and have deep flanges. If you replace the wheels with proper 36" wheels, they will rub on the brake shoes! I replaced all my IHC trucks with the MDC "Commonwealth" truck. When I feel wealthy I will go for the IHC metal Commonwealth truck. Its a beautiful smooth rolling model, but beware, over half the trucks I've sampled are substantially out of gauge! There is no excuse for that in a $20 pair of trucks! Lastly, concerning using IHC cars for the core instead of an ECW core kit. I've done this often, but the IHC car is too long. It a "longy" and you will have to trim about 18" off the roof and body to fit a USP side. I don't know if any of the brass side makers have designed for the IHC body and therefore made correspondingly long sides. The IHC body also has a heavyweight fishbelly underframe! They just stole it from their 12-1. I usually make a brass floor (good weight, low center of gravity) with two 1/8" plastic channels for a centersill, use the ends, and shave down the roof to fit. Now the only problem is that funny side-to-side hatch they cast on the roof :-(( Why can't IHC ever get anything right? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:29:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in NYC, espec SSY... In a message dated 9/29/98 9:59:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jbreon@email.msn.com writes: << Mike, I'll have to wait until I can look at home, but I believe it was the Autumn or Winter 1995 issue of The Keystone that had a lengthy article about Sunnyside and the surrounding area. Jerry Breon ---- >> *********Spring 1996 KEYSTONE....excellent work, minor misteaks.. haha.....Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] PRR in NYC Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:02:48 -0400 Mike, It was actually the Spring 1996 issue of The Keystone that had the lengthy article about Sunnyside written by Nicholas Kalis. This was one of the most comprehensive articles that I have ever seen in The Keystone on any subject. Well worth getting a copy if you don't have one. Jerry Breon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Station colors, building colors Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:31:51 PDT ______________________ Really superb stuff from Rick Tipton on Pennsy structure colors. All SPFers should print his post and save it. Let me throw more into the mix: My choice for Pennsy beige, or tan, is to mix Raw Sienna with white. This gets me as close as possible without resorting to exotic color mixes where I wind up with a gallon of paint just to do a lineside section house. Or, for those with more brains than time, use Floquil Depot Buff. Works great on a layout with Roof Brown for trim. If you brush paint your structures, you might try a small bottle of Pectra flat white, or Testors Model Masters flat white, then add a very small dab of Raw Sienna oil paint to it and mix well. This brushes on nicely, dries flat, and the brush marks seem to level out. It thins and cleans up with turpentine or mineral spirits, which are not as harmful to your liver and such as are the solvents used in the traidtional model RR paints, although I prefer using them with proper ventilation. Now, all you SPFers, why and perhaps where did I see Grey buildings along the Pennsy, with black trim, and red windows? Am I dreaming. or has too much time gone by? I'd swear that back in the early 1950's, when steam was still around, I saw some small stations and lineside structures that were a medium grey. No kidding. this was up in the area east of Baltimore to Perryville, and along the river up to H'Burg, where I used to commit SPF big time. Can't say what buildings for sure, but at least one of them had one of the Pennsy red keystone name boards on the side. Oh well... Andrew Harmantas, SPF watching the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Shark decals? Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:39:23 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell I'm about to start working up my two freight Sharks (deLuxe Innovations, N Scale), and was planning to do them in DGLE five-stripe (I have two photo references). The problem is that that Microscale five-stripe set (#677) doesn't have the neat circle keystone that Sharks had. Does anybody know of an N Scale decal manufacturer that makes this decal? Alternatively, when did these get repainted into single narrow stripe livery? I model September 1954... Thanks! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in NYC Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:27:50 -0400 Mike, I'll have to wait until I can look at home, but I believe it was the Autumn or Winter 1995 issue of The Keystone that had a lengthy article about Sunnyside and the surrounding area. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Pennsygg1@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 8:32 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR in NYC >Does anyone have information on the powerplant( it is still standing in Long >Island City, I would love to look inside) that the Pennsy made to be used in >the electrification of the New York Zone i.e.: Sunnyside Yard plus the LIRR? > Thank >s > Mike >Capone > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:08:10 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy colors digitized LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > I think I got this HTML thing licked and actually may figure out how to > upkoad a web page. Just in case, does anybody have he proper digital palette > settings for such PRR standards as FCC, DGLE, Tuscan, Deluxe Gold, Depot buff. I use the following for HTML: DGLE -- #001400 Tuscan -- #600010 Gold -- #B0A050 (Mark uses #C0B050 I think) Hope this helps. -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:05:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... In a message dated 9/29/98 7:08:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... Date: 9/29/98 7:08:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: RickTipton To: PRRSignals In a message dated 9/28/98 10:10:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRRSignals@Aol.com writes: > The consist begins with: > C&P 2954 gon..mt..T to NC..(All T to NC in front of train, all MT gon's) > O&W 4267 , C&M 3169 , PRR 16326 ,MC 894, PRR 28962, WNYP 8666, P Co. 6745 ( > > diff from PRR) I&N 391, WCCCo 184, .....CPR 39301, PH 18226, etc. Bill, Love those reporting marks. Considering 1904, my guesses would be: C&P Cleveland & Pittsburgh (Lines West) O&W ?*****my eastern roots...NYO&W, and he did it W inside the O, cute..!!**** C&M Cleveland & Marietta (Lines West) PRR Pennsylvania Railroad (east of Pittsburgh) MC Michigan Central WNYP Western New York & Pennsylvania P Co. abbreviation for "Pennsylvania Lines", the mark that was extinguishing all the other Lines West reporting marks about this time I&N ? WCCCo ? CPR Canadian Pacific Railway PH abbreviation for PanHandle. The reporting mark on the car would have been PCC&StL ****this particular condr, J. Crum, was verry precise..no "pa" and he properly separated PRR from P Co....I wuz amazed...sinmce short-hand notation was more than typical, ...I was very glad I got a book from a detail man.. .He also shows the "propah" PCC&StL, so the PH was one of the puzzlers...anyone got an Official Guide, umm, 1904..?? ..maybe help with WCCCo, and I&N...also... I completely concur on all others.... Great for getting the Lines West juices flowing. BTW, weren't conductors' notebooks notorious for their abbreviations? I've been told "PA" was a popular shorthand for "Pennsylvania". Makes sense when you consider the Pennsy used the 12-letter word and not "PRR" in reporting marks on the side of the car up until the SK2a (Shaded Keystone Phase 2a) lettering of 1958. Til the next train out, >>**Thanks, Rick,,,I promise more as I can...gottra try to keep up on Signal stuff, first priority. Just got word of a Print for North Judson, Ind., and I CANNOT WAIT to see it..!!! will share.....all RR's represented on it = PRR, Erie, NYC, C&O............whew....Bill**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:28:23 -0400 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Hulett Unloaders Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > > Jerry, > In the book `Bessemer & Lake Erie' they did have a couple of pages > devoted to the Huletts. They were invented in my hometown (Conneaut Ohio) > by a Mr. George Hulett. I hope my memory serves me right on this it has > been a while since I have read the book. I remember watching them in > Conneaut going into the Lakers to scoop out the ore. Alas in the name of > progess they too have fallen. Proceed to this URL ... http://lcweb2.loc.gov/detroit/dethome.html and enter your search string, ie: Ohio or Huletts, etc. Many, many great old photos of these beauties in action. They also have a series of photos of Erie, PA showing the PRRs once massive lakefront operation. Check it out. :-) -D -- David Mikulec DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net The Nostalgia Trip Homepage http://www.users.mis.net/~shazada/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:32:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] hulett video footage (i think) In a message dated 98-09-28 23:02:39 EDT, you write: << i remember someone asking if there is any footage of the huletts in operation regarding to the question about the hulett unloaders. correct me if im wrong, but if you watch the opening credits of the movie "major league", during the song in the beginning that goes "cleveland, city of light, city of magic" there is a couple-second shot of what i beleive are the huletts, in operation. since they are no longer used, i can only assume the movie prouction company had them fired up just for that 3 second shot in the opening opf the movie. >> More likely "stock footage" than new camera work. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:43:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] model building paint Close caps tight - store bottles UPSIDE DOWN paint can not evaporate through the bootoms Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:18:10 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] Cabin Goodbye Hi, The interest in cabin cars has pretty well come to a halt so it is time to leave the PRR List. I'll sign-off on Friday. To keep in touch, you can use until 19 December 1998. Cheers, Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:55:33 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Sanborn maps... --On Monday, September 28, 1998, 10:53 PM +0000 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Has it been covered on this list that the Library of Congress has long-range > plans to put the entire Sanborn map collection on the web? Another good, albeit not-to-scale, series of maps that ARE available via the LC's web pages are the Foster "Birds-Eye- View" series, ca. 1889-1910. These maps are specially valuable to modelers because they show RR facilities in perspective to their surroundings. Vagel Keller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:48:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... Folks, I think that WCCCo is the Westmorland Coal (&) Coke Co. Not sure but I think Clover Leaf has a dry transfer for it. I picked up an excellant metal car, assembled, painted and weathered (was it a Red Ball?) and lettered for this company, and representing turn of the century era. That's fifty years before my era, but these little gems can be irriristable. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:16:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... In a message dated 9/29/98 1:00:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRRSignals@aol.com writes: << P Co. abbreviation for "Pennsylvania Lines", the mark that was extinguishing all the other Lines West reporting marks about this time >> This probably a reference to the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Railway, reporting mark PFtW&CRw. While the Pennsylvania Co. was the PRR holding company for Pennsylvania Lines West, it was THE operating company for the Fort Wayne System. Since there is a reference to the C&P, Cleveland & Pittsburgh, and the Cleveland & Marietta, both Fort Wayne subsidiaries, it is unlikely that it refers to any other Fort Wayne subsidiary, such as the Grand Rapids & Indiana. All the PRR-controlled roads mentioned are part of Pennsylvania Lines West. While the P. Co., headquartered in Pittsburgh, owned the leases of the raods making up the Panhandle, the PCC&StL was operated independently out of headquarters in Columbus. Just as Broad Street exercised its authority over the P. Co. through appointments to its board. (The Pennsylvania Co. presidency seems to be a position to the PRR Co. CEO heir apparent among the PRR senior Veeps) the P. Cp. exercised its control over the Panhandle similarly. Could I&N be L&N? Tom V> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:40:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Station colors, building colors In a message dated 9/29/98 8:57:20 AM Central Daylight Time, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: << My choice for Pennsy beige, or tan, is to mix Raw Sienna with white. >> I thought I had a simple solution, too. Used Polly S military colors khaki 500060 with white.. Not to be confused with US khaki which is the wrong color, to my eyes. But stopped by Walthers and couldn't find the 500060 in the catalog. . Will contact Floquil direct to see if still available to military distys. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:54:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... In a message dated 9/29/98 6:16:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LINESWEST writes: << PRR senior Veeps) the P. Cp. exercised its control over the Panhandle similarly. Could I&N be L&N? Tom V> >> ***Hi tom, and thx....I will scan some more, and see...Old man Crum was pretty accurate, especially for his time. Later conductors ( like me ) don't alllways spelll as good as he did..!!!..........Thx, Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 03:58:35 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... ---BPX29@aol.com wrote: > > Folks, > I think that WCCCo is the Westmorland Coal (&) Coke Co. Not sure but I think > Clover Leaf has a dry transfer for it. Ahem. Westmorland was a county in England, the county in Pennsylvania is Westmoreland. Also, I think that's Clover House. Herald King has/had wet decal set for Westmoreland Coal, but I hear that Herald King is getting out of the decal business. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 08:29:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, robert netzlof wrote: > Ahem. Westmorland was a county in England, the county > in Pennsylvania is Westmoreland. Also, I think that's > Clover House. Yeah, there's "more" in "Westmoreland" or something like that (yay tourism slogans). Actually, there's a lot more (ex-)Pennsy in Westmoreland:-) > Herald King has/had wet decal set for Westmoreland > Coal, but I hear that Herald King is getting out of > the decal business. Rather unfortunate, as I could also use another set of PaTrain decals, and no one seems to have them anymore:-( Closer to on-topic: i know that there was a Westmoreland Coal Co. mine just west of Irwin, and that later a portion of the right of way of their mine tram was used for the West Penn Railways streetcar line from Irwin to Trafford... which had 2 high trestles and numerous bridges, as well as several cuts. It was completed just before the state higway (currently PA 993) was -- PA 993 runs from just east of Trafford to Ardara along vacated PRR right of way, the original main line on that stretch; One of the current highway cuts is apparently a daylighted tunnel. Given two cuts through adjacent hills about the same depth and similar in lengths, I'm not sure which! -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:31:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, robert netzlof wrote: > Ahem. Westmorland was a county in England, the county > in Pennsylvania is Westmoreland. Also, I think that's > Clover House. And of course, England has "shires", whereas "county" is a term more closely associated with Ireland. The US did many anti-British things between 1776 and 1830 or so. (The whole slavery thing started taking over about then, plus the Mexican War.) Among these were officially adopting the (French-promoted) metric system, which remains the only _official_ system of measurement adopted by Congress. (The "English system" of units is formally called the "U.S. Customary Units".) German was nearly adopted as the language of government, losing by only 1 vote in Congress. So I would not find it surprising that the Irish 'county' were adopted. However, 'county' is used also in Canada, to which the royalists moved after the American Revolution. Is 'county' a more general term, or a free-standing word, in Britain, and is -shire reserved primarily for suffixes and a few quaint phrases such as "in every shire and burg"? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 06:52:21 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh)..... ---Mark D Bej wrote: > > > On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, robert netzlof wrote: > > > Ahem. Westmorland was a county in England, the county > > in Pennsylvania is Westmoreland. Also, I think that's > > Clover House. > > And of course, England has "shires", whereas "county" is a term more > closely associated with Ireland. > > However, 'county' is used also in Canada, to which the royalists moved after > the American Revolution. Is 'county' a more general term, or a free-standing > word, in Britain, and is -shire reserved primarily for suffixes and a few > quaint phrases such as "in every shire and burg"? > county: 1. The domain of a count 2a. one of the territorial divisions of Great Britain and Ireland constituting the chief units for administrative, judical, and political purposes 3. the largest territorial division for local government within a state of the U. S. shire: 1. an administrative subdivision, esp. a county in England. 2. any of a British breed of large, heavy draft horses with heavily feathered legs Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:57:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] one more centennial history book at auction... **Another B & K Cent. History / PRR on ebay, ( Jerry ???)..... # 32039059, hanging around $ 34. currently.....all yours...Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:38:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] New Orleans? Any PRR-Talkers in New Orleans? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh).. Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 12:40:08 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/30/98 11:19 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) wrote: >Is this stuff appropriate? No wonder we have folks droppin' off the list. >I envy the wisdom on these topics but lets get back on target. I agree. This thread started appropriately, but when I lost interest, I quit readin' them. Obviously this one has drifted. Please stop. BTW: There continue to be more subscribes than unsubscribes. We are over 250. -- Listmeister ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 11:19:58 EDT From: Subject: Re: [PRR] awhile ago on the Penna. Lines West (of Pittsburgh).. Is this stuff appropriate? No wonder we have folks droppin' off the list. I envy the wisdom on these topics but lets get back on target. kris ------------- Original Text From: robert netzlof , on 9/30/98 9:52 AM: ---Mark D Bej wrote: > > > On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, robert netzlof wrote: > > > Ahem. Westmorland was a county in England, the county > > in Pennsylvania is Westmoreland. Also, I think that's > > Clover House. > > And of course, England has "shires", whereas "county" is a term more > closely associated with Ireland. > > However, 'county' is used also in Canada, to which the royalists moved after > the American Revolution. Is 'county' a more general term, or a free-standing > word, in Britain, and is -shire reserved primarily for suffixes and a few > quaint phrases such as "in every shire and burg"? > county: 1. The domain of a count 2a. one of the territorial divisions of Great Britain and Ireland constituting the chief units for administrative, judical, and political purposes 3. the largest territorial division for local government within a state of the U. S. shire: 1. an administrative subdivision, esp. a county in England. 2. any of a British breed of large, heavy draft horses with heavily feathered legs Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "D & S HOBBIES" Subject: Re: [PRR] Station colors, building colors Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:07:30 -0400 Bob, The Polly S line of paints has been discontinued. Polly Scale picked most of the variety of colors but not necessarily the exact Polly S colors. Names also changed for some colors. Hope this helps. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 >I thought I had a simple solution, too. Used Polly S military colors khaki >500060 with white.. Not to be confused with US khaki which is the wrong >color, to my eyes. But stopped by Walthers and couldn't find the 500060 in the >catalog. . Will contact Floquil direct to see if still available to military >distys. > >Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:49:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] ...more 1904... ***Since you Lines West folks did so great on old road identification, here are some more: The ones that seem obvious, some lasted into 1960's or later, some are parts of / became under PRR, NYC, etc.: N & W, P W & B=p, T W V & O, C A & C, C & O, L & N, N C R=p , G T , Heinz Co., A A, M C=n, C B & Q, C M & St P, G R & I (=?), G N, B & O, S A L, P M,L S & M S=n, N Y C & H R=n, L V, M & St L, Wabash, L & N, L E & W, D L & W, Big Four, P F W & C=p, E & P=p, These are the debatables: ( anywhere there is a dash, it could be an '&'.........) C & M, C S Ry, I - V, A - V, P H, E L, K M , P P W & C, C H & D, F & P M, C & M V, M R R R, C L & W, P F N W, O & L K, B & B C, B & O S W, P & W, I & V, C A & C, M D T C, A V R, E C L, T C S & D, H V, P T R, W Va S L, P & W, A R Line, C & P, P Y & A, P F C, T F O W Co., T O C, U L, P B & L E, P Y & A. It ==looks like== C&M and PH were PRR subsidiaries, since those road names show up on work trains...usually only company cars went out in work service.... To confirm Bary P, the WCCCo cars are only Gons, none other; so that "Westmoreland Coal" sounds good, no matter how you spell it...... all yours, LinesWestFans........Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 17:44:34 CST Subject: [PRR] More on Sanborns... Hi, all, Thanks for the various posts and the helpful info. I stumbled onto a lead that may be promising. In speaking with a librarian in the map collection of the U of Chicago, I was informed that many (if not all) Sanborn maps for the whole USA have been copied onto microfilm and are available through the Center for Research Libraries here in Chicago. I have not had time to pursue this lead but if it proves to be true, I will give you the details. The fellow telling me all this seemed to think that the microfilms are very good and cover not only the various locations mapped but also a selection of the different dates in which maps were done. Hope to have good news on all this soon. Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 21:23:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] altoona (pa) shops hi all, does anyone know where i might be able to find blueprints or diagrams of the conrail (ex- PRR, soon to be NS) shops in altoona, pa. im looking for lenghts, widths and heights of the different buildings, as i am going to attempt modeling the complex in N scale. any help would be apprecated. thanks in advance, sean mcd ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 20:22:56 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] Huletts, colors, & a new web site. A question about Huletts: In the Winter '87 Keystone, the pictures of the Erie docks show 2 types of unloaders. One type looks like the Whiskey Island Huletts, with the solid steel arm leading to the buckets. The other has steel cables leading to the buckets. Were they both made by Hulett? Regarding matching colors: What I did was find a nice looking color photo of an E8, and fiddled with the settings to match the DGLE and Buff. I eyeballed a Keystone passenger car picture for Tuscan. Someone else mentioned that it matters whether it is a small or large sample you are looking at. I agree. The DGLE values I chose for a background looked black when used as foreground on a Buff background, so I lightened it up a little. I was doing this because ... I just put a web site on line dealing with the PRR into and out of Erie, PA -- the Philadelphia & Erie and Erie & Pittsburgh branches: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm It currently consists of a friend's recent photos of former Pennsy locales. I just became interested in model railroading & the Pennsy about 2 years ago, so I don't have much of my own stuff. Please take a look. If you have any additions, corrections, etc., drop me a line. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!