From: Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:42:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Railfest 98, Altoona Content-Length: 443 Who else is planning on attending Railfest 98? Harold Modeling the Middle Division ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Universal What's New page Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 09:14:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2142 Not unlike my "Works In Progress" page (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/working.html) which intends to list web works in progress from many sites, I was wondering about the feasibility of creating a "Universal What's New" page. My idea is that all who have "substantial" PRR web sites participate. Without near full participation, the concept loses its effectiveness. Each participant will maintain an unlinked site on their page. I will supply a set of custom HTML tags. Between these, the webmeister of the site can include any new items that they have added within the last, say, 30 days. The last item on the list may be a link to a more complete "What's New" page at the site. Meanwhile, on my site, will be the Universal What's New page. Every time someone accesses it, it will serve the header and footer, but in between it will call up and insert all of the mini "What's New" tidbits from around the web. Like this: header new at Jerry Britton's "Keystone Crossings" new at Mark Bej's "The Broad Way" new at Rob Schoenberg's... new at ... new at etc footer Everyone can then check out this one page on a daily basis to see what's been added where. The individual web masters can update their own info without my intervention and it will be updated to the world in real time. To make it work, however, we need a lot of participation. What do y'all think, and who all would be willing to participate? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: pennsy@alphalink.com.au (Mike Molloy) Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Universal What's New page Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:37:55 GMT Content-Length: 609 I think this would be a great idea I don't have a whole lot to offer on my small site, but I'd love to participate when it gets started. And it would be a great way to keep up with all the additions to so many PRR sites! Count me in! Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 8:38:43 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] Railfest 98, Altoona -Reply Content-Length: 784 Date: 08/03/1998 02:36 pm (Monday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] Railfest 98, Altoona -Reply >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 08/02/98 09:42am >>> >Who else is planning on attending Railfest 98? >Harold >Modeling the Middle Division -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am planning on being there on Sat. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Universal What's New page Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 10:07:49 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1147 On 8/3/98 9:14 AM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >Meanwhile, on my site, will be the Universal What's New page. Every time >someone accesses it, it will serve the header and footer, but in between >it will call up and insert all of the mini "What's New" tidbits from >around the web. I want to clarify my own statement. This page will not be served from the "Keystone Crossings" (biased) site, but from the generic WWW.PENNSYRR.COM site. In fact, the link is already in place. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing (fwd) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 10:15:36 EDT Content-Length: 1382 > On 7/28/98 6:30 PM, Wayne S. Betty (wsbcos@cris.com) wrote: > >I remember lots of TV traffic through Mount Joy. We moved to Mount Joy in > >1969. One of my favorite places in Mount Joy was the crossing at the Florin Jerry: > Finally, someone that can substantiate TrucTrain traffic on the passenger > main prior to the Conrail merger!!! > Okay, we've got it set in 1969...now if we can just back it up. I need > 1954. > Since nobody has been able to find an ETT for 1954 for the Philly > Division, maybe those with ETT's for the Philly Division later in the > 1950's can take a look at the schedule for any of the TrucTrains. > At introduction, the symbols were LCL-x. Later someone mentioned them as > TT-x. > Follow the route: do STATE or ROY appear? If so, they went the passenger > main through Harrisburg. Do COLA or CLY appear? If so, they went the A&S. Jerry, did you bother to check http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ ? Your answer is there, for 1960. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing (fwd) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 10:28:53 EDT Content-Length: 993 > The 1959 Freight Schedules on Mark Bej's site do show STATE. So as of > that date, they did go through Harrisburg. Another response placed them > in Mount Joy (between Lancaster and Middletown) which is also on the > passenger line. I see the problem. >From the perspective of having typed in a large number of these schedules, the stong sense I get is that A&S trains went thru Enola (DAY, CLY), whereas main line trains went thru STATE. The only one seems certain is TT-6, which stops in Lancaster -- though it _could have_, I guess, take the Columbia Branch from Royalton to Columbia to Lancaster...! -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: pennsy@alphalink.com.au (Mike Molloy) Subject: [PRR] Double Posts Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 14:46:23 GMT Content-Length: 544 Hi Jerry, As the subject says! I'm not fussed to much about it as the multiple posts are easily identifed and dropped. However I thought you would like to know. Cheers, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:07:11 -0400 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All Content-Length: 2406 Greetings to Jerry and the group, As to the date of the photo on page 21 of Schafer's & Soloman's _Pennsylvania Railroad_ book, I would say after 1963. According to Cupper's _Horseshoe Heritage_, the N6b cabin car 980901 was placed at the Curve in 1963. It was destroyed in a 1976 arson fire. The K4 1361 was placed at the Curve in 1957. If you are modeling early 50s, 1361 would not have been on display yet. The gift shop building was built in 1940. The old stone stairs up to track level began behind the clump of trees to the right of the "round cement area" you mentioned. I can't say what that round cement thing was. I moved to Altoona in 1983, which was the first time I visited the Curve. I don't remember it being there then, though it could have been. The stone stairs sort of zig-zaged up to the top. Yes, there were a few landings. Only one, the large one you can see in the photo, was covered. It was large enough for a couple of picnic tables but I don't remember ever seeing tables there from 83 on. The steps did hit the top just to the left, under the fall colored tree, of the stone, white washed, horseshoe. Again, according to Cupper's book, the lower horseshoe and stone retaining wall was installed in 1952. If you would like additional detail on the Curve's history, I recommend Cupper's book. In Kalmbach's _More railroads You Can Model_, there is a John Armstrong PRR track plan of Altoona to Cresson. Although the trackplan is not real close to the prototype, the trackplan article does have a few shots of the Curve. Some were taken before 1361 was in place. Kalmbach's _Heart of the PRR The Main Line Philadelphia to Pittsburgh_ also has some pre-1957 photos of the Curve. Another good photo for a pre-1957 view of the Curve is the lead photo of the April 1957 _Trains_ article "World's Busiest Mountain Railroad" by David P. Morgan. This would be a good article to get a copy of if you are interested in operations around the Curve in the 50s. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Double Posts From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 11:15:53 -0400 Content-Length: 499 Jerry, I I too too still still occasionally occasionally get get double double post posts.. regards regards, Andy Andy Miller Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:07:15 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All -Reply Content-Length: 1212 Date: 08/03/1998 06:04 pm (Monday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All -Reply >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 08/03/98 10:07am Drew McGee wrote, in part >>> >In Kalmbach's _More railroads You Can Model_, there is a John >Armstrong PRR track plan of Altoona to Cresson. Although the trackplan >is not real close to the prototype, the trackplan article does have a few >shots of the Curve. Some were taken before 1361 was in place. If someone on the list has this book (currently out of print, originally published in 1978), I would very much like to see a copy of the track plan and accompanying article. I would be very glad to reimburse anyone for copying and postage expenses. Bill Laird email: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 13:20:50 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1883 On 8/3/98 1:07 PM, Laird, Bill (GWise) (William.Laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: >>In Kalmbach's _More railroads You Can Model_, there is a John >>Armstrong PRR track plan of Altoona to Cresson. Although the trackplan >>is not real close to the prototype, the trackplan article does have a few >>shots of the Curve. Some were taken before 1361 was in place. > > >If someone on the list has this book (currently out of print, originally >published in 1978), I would very much like to see a copy of the track plan >and accompanying article. I would be very glad to reimburse anyone for >copying and postage expenses. At the April PRRT&HS convention, Mark Bej made some very good points about "how bad this layout is" from an operational standpoint. Basically, an eastbound train that wants to enter the Altoona yard, must change to the outer mainline track just after leaving Altoona (heading east) so it can hit the yard on the next pass. There is no crossover anywhere on the mountain. Amazing!!! Actually, Mark was speaking of the layout in the "20 Railroads You Can Model". That Horseshoe layout was based apparently on the one mentioned above, and repeated the error in design, per Mark. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All (fwd) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 14:59:20 EDT Content-Length: 5405 > On 8/3/98 1:07 PM, Laird, Bill (GWise) (William.Laird@coastalcorp.com) > wrote: > >>In Kalmbach's _More railroads You Can Model_, there is a John > >>Armstrong PRR track plan of Altoona to Cresson. Although the trackplan > >>is not real close to the prototype, the trackplan article does have a few > >>shots of the Curve. Some were taken before 1361 was in place. > > > > > >If someone on the list has this book (currently out of print, originally > >published in 1978), I would very much like to see a copy of the track plan > >and accompanying article. I would be very glad to reimburse anyone for > >copying and postage expenses. Jerry wrote: > At the April PRRT&HS convention, Mark Bej made some very good points > about "how bad this layout is" from an operational standpoint. Basically, > an eastbound train that wants to enter the Altoona yard, must change to > the outer mainline track just after leaving Altoona (heading east) so it > can hit the yard on the next pass. There is no crossover anywhere on the > mountain. Amazing!!! > > Actually, Mark was speaking of the layout in the "20 Railroads You Can > Model". That Horseshoe layout was based apparently on the one mentioned > above, and repeated the error in design, per Mark. What Jerry wrote above captures my basic sentiments about the layout -- though it is not entirely correct. I'm afraid I'd need the layout in front of me to provide the full criticism of it, but here were the basic points: 1) the eastern tunnel portals have the wrong "look". YOu can of course decide whether you want to model 2+1+1 or 1+1+1 tracks, but it should be the northern 2 tracks that are close together, not the southern 2. Moreover, the interesting operational possibilities of full vertical separation that is on the prototype is not used in the model. 2) If we number the tunnel tracks 2,3,4 from south to north, presumably the railroad would run #2 track eastbound, #3 bidirectional, and #4 westbound. Note that 2 track splits just east of the tunnels. Let's call these 1,2,3,4. Note further that the _only_ way to get to Altoona yard is from #1 track. That means the train must be on #2 tunnel track, and your last chance to get to _it_ is way back ... somewhere. I.e. your decision to yard the train must be way way early. This problem would be _fixed_ by adding one crossover the other way at SLOPE/ALTO interlocking, just west of the yard. 1+2) In summary, this MRR is designed for running westbound freights UP the Allegheny grade. 3) As is typical of most MRR designs, there are crossovers/interlockings helter-skelter over the main. There is little rhyme or reason, and contrary to prototype, there is little compaction of the control points. 4) Freight trains remaining on the main E/B must go through the passenger station. Altoona, like most larger stations on PRR, had deliberate passenger/freight separation. Perhaps one can chalk this one up to "MRR selective modelling", but a little more effort would have been nice. 5) There is a helper pocket just east of the station. However, note that the helper pocket is not on the westbound (=uphill) main side, nor between the mains, but rather on the E/B side. To make matters worse, the helper has 2 complicated ways of getting out. Either you use the immediately local crossovers (tying up the E/B main in the process) and do a triple move, through wrong-way crossovers, to get out ... or you go E/B on the E/B main (tying it up, again) to a distant crossover, get on the W/B main, and pull up to your train. Prototypical? I doubt it. Between the mains makes the most sense, with an equilateral switch from the helper pocket to each main W/B. That way, you pull directly against the train; further, coming E/B, you pull directly into the helper pocket. But some research is in order. I for one don't recall a helper pocket at ALTO. Was there one, or did the typical train come thru the yard to pick up its helper? 6) Note that the number of mains drop to 2 (or 1) at Altoona yard. This is moderately acceptable and expected if one is modelling an era when nearly all trains would have stopped for crews. However, it is doubtful that a single main farther east could have generated the traffic to justify four tracks over the mountain. Note that Conrail's ratio is 2 tracks off the hill to 3 tracks on. To justify 4 tracks on the hill, I'd say you'd better have at least 3 tracks off the hill (in some combination of one or more lines). These were my main complaints. The layout is, in Armstrongish style, a mastery of compaction and placing one thing onto another. The ability to run it as a dogbone or as a loop is also quite interesting. Being that it passes the territory of the EBT, I'm surprised no 3' gauge (and dual guage!) trackage was added. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All (fwd) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 15:21:49 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1393 On 8/3/98 2:59 PM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >These were my main complaints. The layout is, in Armstrongish style, a >mastery of compaction and placing one thing onto another. The ability to >run it as a dogbone or as a loop is also quite interesting. Being that it >passes the territory of the EBT, I'm surprised no 3' gauge (and dual guage!) >trackage was added. Glad I didn't get into too much trouble quoting our Dean of Layout Design and Signalling from memory! It's not too often that you can justifiably get critical of Armstrong, but this layout has numerous problems as Mark eludes to. I pore over tons of Armstrong books for ideas of how to do more in less space. They are truly inspirational! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:00 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All Content-Length: 1814 Date: 08/03/1998 07:56 pm (Monday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All -Reply -Reply >>> Jerry at PRR-Talk@dsop.com 08/03/98 12:20pm wrote, in part>>> >>>At the April PRRT&HS convention, Mark Bej made some very good points about "how bad this layout is" from an operational standpoint. Basically, an eastbound train that wants to enter the Altoona yard, must change to the outer mainline track just after leaving Altoona (heading east) so it can hit the yard on the next pass. There is no crossover anywhere on the mountain. Amazing!!! Actually, Mark was speaking of the layout in the "20 Railroads You Can Model". That Horseshoe layout was based apparently on the one mentioned above, and repeated the error in design, per Mark. <<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ First, let me say that since posting a request earlier today for a copy of the horsehsoe curve trackplan and article from _More Railroads You Can Model_ , I have received several offers. Thank you all. This is another example of just what a great resourse base this list is and just how great the members are in their willingness to share. Second, Jerry's response (above) brings up the question, "is there a good trackplan" that anyone has developed for the horseshoe curve area? Bill Laird ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 16:13:18 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing (fwd) Content-Length: 2057 The notes on TT-6 mentions that it sets off Block 3 at Lancaster. The Lancaster ramp was deep inside Dillerville yard ( at what is now the west end of the new yard office). I would hazard the guess, that this train came up the Columbia Branch to drop off its Block. The schedule as posted, is from 1959, I would also guess there would have been an increase in TOFC and COFC form the Port of Philadelphia in the later 60's. These are the trains that probably saw passing through Mount Joy. I doubt that they did any work at Lancaster. I do remember seeing TTX cars stored east of the Lancaster Station in the late 60's. cos Mark D Bej wrote: > > The 1959 Freight Schedules on Mark Bej's site do show STATE. So as of > > that date, they did go through Harrisburg. Another response placed them > > in Mount Joy (between Lancaster and Middletown) which is also on the > > passenger line. > > I see the problem. > > >From the perspective of having typed in a large number of these schedules, > the stong sense I get is that A&S trains went thru Enola (DAY, CLY), whereas > main line trains went thru STATE. > > The only one seems certain is TT-6, which stops in Lancaster -- though it > _could have_, I guess, take the Columbia Branch from Royalton to Columbia to > Lancaster...! > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve was Re: Any Help At All (fwd) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 16:38:34 EDT Content-Length: 1708 > First, let me say that since posting a request earlier today for a copy of > the horsehsoe curve trackplan and article from _More Railroads You Can > Model_ , I have received several offers. Thank you all. This is another > example of just what a great resourse base this list is and just how great > the members are in their willingness to share. > > Second, Jerry's response (above) brings up the question, "is there a > good trackplan" that anyone has developed for the horseshoe curve > area? Bill, it really depends on what YOU want to model. And what you want to run. Is your primary interest modelling a large yard (Altoona)? Do you prefer small yards and local shifting (Lewistown)? Do you want freights going up hills (bag Altoona yard, do the CURVE!) Do you want to run passenger trains or freights, or a prototypical mix? Do you want to model trackage arrangements accurately, and just run trains? Do you want each freight car to be a work of art (and the track is there only for the car to sit on something, and maybe even run sometimes)? Do you want to scratchbuild/customize lots of engines? (Build the Juniata Works, forget the yard and Curve.) Decide these things, and come up with a basic track plan. Scan it in, or let Jerry post it, and we'll all take turns critiquing it. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:29:02 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 741 Laird, Bill (GWise) wrote: > > ...Second, Jerry's response (above) brings up the question, "is there > a good trackplan" that anyone has developed for the horseshoe curve > area? > Model Railroader had an article in the April, 1940, issue on layout ideas for the Gallitzin/Cresson area, which included a detailed trackplan with signals. Any interest? Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: [PRR] eBay Heads Up: 1923 CT1000_C_ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:20:40 -0400 Content-Length: 577 Greetings to the group. Anybody looking for a 1923 CT1000_C_ ? Someone has a copy up for sale on eBay at this link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=23925475 Happy Shopping! Steve Sejda ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:41:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1284 In a message dated 98-08-03 17:39:51 EDT, Laird, Bill (GWise) wrote: > ...Second, Jerry's response (above) brings up the question, "is there > a good trackplan" that anyone has developed for the horseshoe curve > area? > At Kansas City I was fortunate to operate on Doug Taylor's PRR Harrisburg (staging) to Crestline (staging). Altoona trackage through Pittsuburgh with several branches is modeled. My understanding was that his layout, designed by John Armstrong, was in a spring issue of MR. His EBT was the cover story on Rail Model Journal recently. He has captured most of the trackage Altoona to Gallitzin and the layout has full-working position light signals. WAs there a layout diagram with the MR article, for those who might have seen it? Also, John Armstrong had a Horseshoe Curve article in an MR in 50's or 60's, I belivieve (check the Accurail website magazine index). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 20:16:25 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1618 On 8/3/98 6:41 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >At Kansas City I was fortunate to operate on Doug Taylor's PRR Harrisburg >(staging) to Crestline (staging). Altoona trackage through Pittsuburgh with >several branches is modeled. My understanding was that his layout, designed >by John Armstrong, was in a spring issue of MR. His EBT was the cover story >on Rail Model Journal recently. He has captured most of the trackage Altoona >to Gallitzin and the layout has full-working position light signals. WAs >there a layout diagram with the MR article, for those who might have seen it? >Also, John Armstrong had a Horseshoe Curve article in an MR in 50's or >60's, I >belivieve (check the Accurail website magazine index). There was a track plan included. Operationally, in generic terms, it looked good. For the Pennsy rivet counter, I feel it is somewhat disappointing. Another case where the tunnels at the summit didn't have much separation (horiz. or vert.), among other problems. Still, quite a setup. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:34:41 -0500 Content-Length: 2108 Hello, Have any of you ever seen the curve layout at "Pauls Hobbies" in New Oxford before it closed? The layout is still there, just the business closed. It was about 12-14 foot across and 30 foot long as I remember, 4 track all the way..... Bill ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve > Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 5:41 PM > > In a message dated 98-08-03 17:39:51 EDT, > Laird, Bill (GWise) wrote: > > > ...Second, Jerry's response (above) brings up the question, "is there > a > good trackplan" that anyone has developed for the horseshoe curve > > area? > > > At Kansas City I was fortunate to operate on Doug Taylor's PRR Harrisburg > (staging) to Crestline (staging). Altoona trackage through Pittsuburgh with > several branches is modeled. My understanding was that his layout, designed > by John Armstrong, was in a spring issue of MR. His EBT was the cover story > on Rail Model Journal recently. He has captured most of the trackage Altoona > to Gallitzin and the layout has full-working position light signals. WAs > there a layout diagram with the MR article, for those who might have seen it? > Also, John Armstrong had a Horseshoe Curve article in an MR in 50's or 60's, I > belivieve (check the Accurail website magazine index). > > Bob Zoeller > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:54:10 +0000 From: zeolla@erols.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#23160419: Varney Content-Length: 1164 I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: Varney Aerotrain Seller: dst8596587@aol.com Starts: 07/28/98 12:17:30 PDT Ends: 08/04/98 12:17:30 PDT Price: Currently $71.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=23160419 Item Description: Varney Aerotrain consisting of a powered unit, four coaches and one observation. Color is silver with orange trim. In very good condition with only normal handeling wear. Paint is very good with one very small chip above window post on engine cab. Do not have original boxes. No diaphrams for coaches. Buyer to pay for shipping. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Aug 98 8:04:03 EDT From: Subject: fwd: [PRR] St. Louis Content-Length: 2466 Greetings from Hershey, PA. Larry, I used to be stationed at Scott Air Force base outside of St Louis and traveled into the city on numerous occasions. Normally I would make the trip via the interstate highway but one several occasions I would travel through East St Louis (which is on the east side of the Mississippi) to get there. Apparently East St Louis had a major rail yard. There are several concrete bridges that carried the tracks over the roads that have PRR & the Keystone embossed into the concrete. Its been many years since I've been there last and I wasn't very familiar with the streets and roads names/numbers so I can't be of more help with directions. Maybe other list members can be more precise. One thing to keep in mind though is that E. St Louis is not (IMHO) the best section of town to travel in. So beware and have a full tank of gas. ------------- Original Text From: Larry and Phyllis Morgan , on 7/28/98 10:37 AM: To: SMTP@193SOG@PAMDT["PRR-TALK" ] I am planning a short trip with my wife to St. Louis in late August. Any suggestion for PRR related activities. We would like information about: former PRR sites, especially those that are still standing, good places to watch trains, especially former PRR locations, museums with former PRR equipment - the national transportation museum is not mentioned in tourists guides and any information would be useful, railroad bridges across the Mississippi or Missouri, especially former PRR bridges, Alton, Illinois, where we will actually stay, and PRR connections if there are any, anything else this group might suggest. Thanks in advance, Larry Morgan ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TerraServer Satellite Views Date: Tue, 4 Aug 98 13:14:06 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1527 Some interesting locales on the TerraServer...aerial views of: Shocks Mill Bridge http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetPageByXY.asp?XId=9416&YId=3697&SrcI d=1&ImgDate=04/06/1992&ImgSize=2&DSize=0 Columbia, Pa. http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetPageByXY.asp?XId=9422&YId=3693&SrcI d=1&ImgDate=04/08/1993&ImgSize=2&DSize=0 Dual Bridges at Safe Harbor http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetPageByXY.asp?XId=9428&YId=3684&SrcI d=1&ImgDate=04/06/1992&ImgSize=1&DSize=0 Location of junction of Atglen & Susquehanna Branch and Columbia & Port Deposit Branch http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetPageByXY.asp?XId=9429&YId=3682&SrcI d=1&ImgDate=04/23/1992&ImgSize=1&DSize=0 Martic Forge Bridge http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetTileByClick.asp?XId=9430&YId=3682&S rcId=1&ImgDate=04/23/1992&ImgSize=0&DSize=0&W=225&H=150&ClickAt=?209,3 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Dupes & Plan of Action Date: Tue, 4 Aug 98 14:19:00 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2458 As many of you know, the duplicate messages are not gone, but do seem to have subsided somewhat. It "seems" that the latest revision of our web server does not get along well with our list server... not unlike adding a kitten to a home with a three year old cat. The two seem to be having some territory problems!!! Anyway, the new rev of the web server must stay due to some long awaited features that will produce income and eventually offset some of the site's operating costs. So, I will continue to "tweak" and do what I can to make things more amiable. Long term, I have been planning to move the list server to its own machine. Many months ago I invested in a separate box which runs the router/gateway/firewall, mail server, and domain name server. That change has been golden. Sometimes I forget that it even exists! Anyway, the original machine runs the web server, ftp server, and list server. The ftp and web server will always be the same, as webmasters need to be able to update their sites. When financially possible, I will be buying a new box to dedicate to the list server. The cost is $400. I'll have a new CD-ROM of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" coming out in the September time frame and that should yeild enough profit to cover it. CD sales -- and of course on going donations -- will be applied to the new box and, alas, to the hardware required to increase our bandwidth. Yes, we are finally nearing that point!!! So please continue with your patience. If you are particularly affected by the duplicates, please change your subscription to the digest mode for the duration. Again, my apologies. FOR MORE INFO: The new CD: http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ds/ds/.html Donations: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/support.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Satellite Shot of ZOO & 30th Street Station Date: Tue, 4 Aug 98 15:07:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 872 More satellite shots from Microsoft's Terra Server... 30th Street Station and ZOO Interlocking: http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetPageByXY.asp?XId=9484&YId=3687&SrcI d=1&ImgDate=03/29/1992&ImgSize=1&DSize=1 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:24:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Concerning Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1244 At the South Penn Model RR we are presently constructing a model of the curve in HO. It is approx. 12 x 36 feet, all 4track and will end for this year in a 2track dogbone at the top. Next year we will remove the dogbone and model the tunnels and the loop at Gallitizin with the main continuing WB. Our landlord is comtemplating a fire exit; if this comes to pass we will continue the grade and place Gallitizin at 6'8" with viewing platforms; if not we will put the tunnels and the loop at the present dogbone and proceed downgrade. Only 8 feet of benchwork remains to be done, roadbed is in to the center of the curve, track is complete to the bottom of the curve, and we will begin scenery around Sept. 1. We will be up and running before our show which starts Thanksgiving weekend. Any advice on modeling the tunnels and the loop would be appreciated. TIA Jerry Finefrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:46:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Paul's Hobby Shop - New Oxford... Content-Length: 639 Someone had written in about Paul's PRR HC layout...in the coach. We had stopped by there, while chasing Rdg 2102 with WM FAs on the Dutch line, must have been.....1972..??....Neat trip !! The movies show snow in April... Is the layout still accessible...?? Thanks, Bill. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:39:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] The Purple Emperor Content-Length: 2104 Some time back there was a thread about the source of the name for the PRR train The Purple Emperor. Speculation was that it was from a story by Rudyard Kipling and in fact it is. The title of the short story is ".007" written in 1898. 007 is the number of a new 4-4-0 locomotive purchased by a railroad in New York State. In the story the locomotives and cars are alive and talk to each other. The Purple Emperor was the line's crack passenger locomotive and is described as follows: "Now I'll show you something worth." said Pony, an 0-6-0 switcher. "When the Purple Emperor ain't on time, it's about time to amend the constitution. The first stroke of twelve is--" "Boom!" went the clock on the big yard tower, and far away .007 heard a full vibrating "Yah! Yah! Yah!" A headlight twinkled on the horizon like a star, grew to an overpowering blaze, and whooped up the humming track to the roaring music of a happy giant's song: "With a michnai--ghignai--shtingal! "Yah! Yah! Yah! Ein--zwei--drei, Mutter! "Yah! Yah! Yah! She climb upon der shteeple, Und she frighten all der people, Singin' michnai--ghignai--shtingal! "Yah! Yah!" The last defiant "Yah! Yah!" was delivered a mile and a half beyond the passenger depot; but .007 had caught one glimpse of the superb six-wheel coupled racing-locomotive, who hauled the pride and glory of the road--the gilt-edged Purple Emperor, the millionaires' southbound express, laying miles over his shoulder as a man peels shavings from a soft board. The rest was a blur of maroon enamel, a bar of white light from the electrics in the cars, and a flicker of nickel-plated handrail on the rear platform. "Ooh!" said .007 Harold Modeling the Middle Division ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Lamokin Tower Content-Length: 673 Hi, Anyone in the Philadelphia area who can give me directions to the old Lamokin Tower? I have been told the building is still there and it is in a bad neighborhood. I was hoping for a possible drive bye photoghaph. As I stated before I only saw it from the rails in my PENN CENTRAL days. Thanks. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:13:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Purple Emperor Content-Length: 583 Only thing, Harold....there was ' speculation ' among us if that PRR name **Might** have come from this source. Only the PRR Marketing Dept. / clerk / creator back then *knows* for sure.. Neat book, huh...????? ..Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: Re: [PRR] Paul's Hobby Shop - New Oxford... Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:58:28 -0400 (EDT) Content-Length: 946 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > Someone had written in about Paul's PRR HC layout...in the coach. > > Is the layout still accessible...?? Thanks, Bill. Last I heard, the shop was being sold -- this was, oh, late last year... I've not bothered to go by there on my last few treks up to Reading, since (without the stop in New Oxford) the drive on Route 30 through York and Lancaster is a bear... so I don't know what's left, if anything. (I can stop and railfan all I want, as long as my wife has something else to do, so that precludes taking the "scenic route"...) Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Paul's Hobby Shop - New Oxford... Date: Wed, 5 Aug 98 06:34:36 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1590 On 8/4/98 10:58 PM, Ken Reinert (kreinert@erols.com) wrote: >Last I heard, the shop was being sold -- this was, oh, late last year... >I've not bothered to go by there on my last few treks up to Reading, since >(without the stop in New Oxford) the drive on Route 30 through York and >Lancaster is a bear... so I don't know what's left, if anything. (I can >stop and railfan all I want, as long as my wife has something else to do, >so that precludes taking the "scenic route"...) I went by about a month ago. Both rail cars are still there, with a FOR SALE sign up. It's been closed around a year now. Some time prior to its close, I had stopped by, found the door locked, and a sign saying "Be right back, at xxx up the street". "xxx" was the name of a small shop about a block away that sells Marklin and those other foreign larger scale models. They explained that they had just acquired that shop and would be expanding it. Didn't realize they would be closing the old shop at the time. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:48:07 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] More Job Evals Content-Length: 1321 Bill, More of the same, with the dupes of your posting deleted, from a Spam-list I seem to be on ("BridgePath): "Quotes from actual Federal Employee performance evaluations: "Since my last report, he has reached rock bottom and has started to dig." "His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of morbid curiosity." "This employee is not so much of a has-been, but more of a definite won't be." "When she opens her mouth, it seems that this is only to change whichever foot was previously in there." "He would be out of his depth in a parking lot puddle." "This young lady has delusions of adequacy." "She sets low personal standards and then consistently fails to achieve them." "This employee should go far-- and the sooner he starts, the better." "This employee is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot." "Not the sharpest knife in the drawer." "Got into the gene pool when the lifeguard wasn't looking." Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: [PRR] Re: Fw: REPOWERING MP SHARKS Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:04:16 PDT Content-Length: 1503 I have some new Model Power A unit dummies and would like to power them.>has>> anyone repowered these RF-16 Model Power Sharks? I'd like to use Athearn>> motors and trucks or a complete chassis. Anyone have experence with>changing>> over to Athearn or any other chassis. ____________________________ I did something similar by using Athearn F-7 mechanisms. The truck spacing looked close enough to me, and it slips up inside the Model Power shell without too much filing of the frame. I body mount my KD 5's on styrene pads, so remove that part of the frame that Athearn mounts the NMRA coupler (yes, that's what it's called--NMRA coupler). It simplifies getting the shell on and off. Nothing quite like using the same family of power for most of a model railroad. The real 1:1 scale RR's kept re-discovering this truth every few years. Odd-ball, one-of-a-kind drive systems (or power plants), if nothing else, keep the shop forces (or the mechanically inclined modeler) busy. Andrew Harmantas ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:18:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] More Job Evals Content-Length: 511 *Steve...were those job evaluations of....NYC people working at 6 Penn Center after 2 / 01 / 68.......hahhaha.....A JOKE MAX....A JOKE....hahhaa...bill* ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] REPOWERING MP SHARKS Date: Wed, 5 Aug 98 11:16:40 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1486 On 8/5/98 10:04 AM, Andrew Harmantas (frisco484@hotmail.com) wrote: > I have some new Model Power A unit dummies and would like to power >them.>has>> anyone repowered these RF-16 Model Power Sharks? I'd like to >use Athearn>> motors and trucks or a complete chassis. Anyone have >experence with>changing>> over to Athearn or any other chassis. You can also do as I did: You can (I believe) still get powered Sharks from Walthers in NYC and some other road names. All you gotta do is repaint them, but you'll have to do that anyway as the MP Sharks that came in Pennsy livery were incorrectly painted Tuscan when they should have been DGLE. I picked up two used powered units from eBay which seem to run decent. They are awaiting repainting, along with two unpowered units. Didn't snag any B units, yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:49:55 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: More Job Evals - Apology Content-Length: 553 To the Group, A sincere apology if my totally Non-railroad posting got in the way. I carelessly confused two email addresses, both starting with "PRR." Steve Bartlett Bill, Oops!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Trains Unlimited Date: Wed, 5 Aug 98 12:37:55 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 808 Anyone know if the "Trains Unlimited" series on The History Channel has been renewed for a third year? (I need to know if I got a fix coming or not!) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Unlimited From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 98 13:59:35 -0400 Content-Length: 701 Anyone know if the "Trains Unlimited" series on The History Channel has been renewed for a third year? (I need to know if I got a fix coming or not!) - ------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF I believe they have moved it to Thursday nites (The nite my model RR club meets - - thats what VCRs are for) regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:16:12 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] "More RR's" Horseshoe Layout. Content-Length: 3323 Hi All, Reading Mark's description of the Horseshoe Curve layout in "20 RR's you can model" leads me to the belief that it is not the same layout as the one in "More RR's you can model". With your indulgence I'll attempt to describe the track layout of the "More RR's" one. In general the layout is a folded figure eight. It leaves Altoona and goes around an approx 100 degree turn to Slope, Goes around the Curve, makes an 180 degree turn to go through the tunnels which hide another 90 degree turn, through Cresson and disappears into a tunnel or cut west of Cresson. In this tunnel it makes a 360 degree loop to emerge at the lower level at the approach to Antis. From Antis it makes another approx. 100 degree turn back to East Altoona. Starting at the approach to Antis the tracks are as follows: 3 tracks out of the loop tunnel. From north, tracks 3, 2 and 1. Just outside the tunnel a signal bridge. Crossover from track 3 to 2. Crossover from track 2 to 1. Crossover from track 1 to 2. At Antis the yard lead diverges from track 1 under a signal bridge. 100 degree curve. At the East end of Altoona track 3 splits into tracks 3 and 4. Tracks 2, 3 and 4 go through the passenger shed at Altoona. Track 1 goes in front of passenger shed. Helper pocket? diverges from track 4. Tracks 1 and 2 converge. Crossover from yard lead to track 1/2 and crossover from 3 to 4 at west signal bridge. Track 1/2 diverges into tracks 1 and 2. 4 tracks around 100 degree turn to Slope. Crossover from 2 to 3. Crossover from 3 to 4. Horseshoe Curve. 180 degree turn. Crossovers from 1 to 2 and from 4 to 3. X Crossover between 2 and 3 at MG. Tracks pairs 1-2 and 3-4 diverge slightly approaching tunnels. No apparent elevation change between track pairs approaching tunnels. Crossover from 3 to 4. Tracks 3 and 4 diverge slightly. Alleghany Tunnel east portals. Crossover from 2 to 1. Portage Tunnel east portal. West portals. Return "balloon" track with loco service facility between tracks 3 and 2. Crossover from 2 to 3. Crossover from 1 to 2 and tracks 3 and 4 converge into one track. Switches from 2 and 3 to a stub track between them. 3 track into tunnel/cut to hidden connection returning to Antis. The yards are fairly vestigial but functional. One runner track off lead, two ladder tracks, one cabin track, another runner track with access to combined steam/diesel engine terminal. Hope this isn't too confusing. All descriptions are from RR East to West and follow the order they appear to Westbound trains. Features in the same sentence are approx. next to each other. Thought about trying to show it in ASCII but gave up. I'll have to try to get a look at the layout in "20 RR's" to compare. All in all this layout seems to be fairly operational and seems to keep important features of the area but I'd like Mark's and other's thoughts on this layout. Anyway, there it is for your perusal. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Unlimited Date: Wed, 5 Aug 98 14:39:49 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 944 On 8/5/98 1:59 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >I believe they have moved it to Thursday nites (The nite my model RR club >meets >- - thats what VCRs are for) Works for me....Monday Night Football bekons! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:56:02 -0700 From: Craig Bowman Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain trailers Content-Length: 1327 Now for something truly arcane. In the middle 50's, trailers were loaded on TrucTrains "circus-style", that is, they were backed down the length of the flatcars. Thus the fronts of the trailers faced east on a west-bound train. If no changes occurred, when the trailers were unloaded out west, the trailers would still be facing east. My question: when/where was the train turned, or were the various terminals at each end of the line oriented so that one set of ramps complemented the direction of the others? I've wondered about this ever since I noticed a photo of a west-bound TT somewhere east of Harrisburg with all of the trailers facing east. Another photo from the mid-50's shows F-units pulling a TT or LCL train west out of Enola, and all of the trailers visible are now facing west! (I know, I know; I've got way too much time on my hands!) Can anyone comment on the direction of trailer facings in the mid-50's? Craig Bowman ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Unlimited Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:14:37 -0400 Content-Length: 1458 Jerry, Check out http://www.historychannel.com/ and let them know how you feel. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Trains Unlimited >Anyone know if the "Trains Unlimited" series on The History Channel has >been renewed for a third year? (I need to know if I got a fix coming or >not!) > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com >The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] REPOWERING MP SHARKS Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 12:45:27 PDT Content-Length: 974 To all, If you are able to restrain yourselves long enough (a few months) Liberty Models will be producing frames for the A and B units that will accept Athearn trucks and be ready to accept Athearn motors, but will come with a cradle that the modeler can use to add weight and use an ALCo Products or NWSL (Sagami) motor. We will also be producing frames for the Model Power C430 and Atlas C424/425 that will accept Athearn trucks/motor. Kevin J. Tully Pennsylvania Tool & Die Co. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:01:32 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] PRR Layouts (was Concerning Horseshoe Curve) -Long Content-Length: 7974 Date: 08/05/1998 08:59 pm (Wednesday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] PRR Layouts (was Concerning Horseshoe Curve) -Long The recent discussions regarding track plans for modeling the horseshoe curve area bring to light a much bigger question of track plans available for modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad. How does one go about capturing the essence of the *Standard Railroad of the World* in a reasonable space, with limited funds and time? There are probably as many answers to that question as there are modelers. One thing that might help a PRR modeler in trying to decide what to model would be a good reference on published track plans that are distinctively Pennsy. I imagine that the members of PRR-Talk collectively possess this information to a greater degree than any other group. I would like to propose that we, the members of PRR-Talk, create such a reference and that Jerry, or one of the other PRR web sites, consider posting the completed list. I will start off by offering a some incomplete references and challenging others to add information about these and others track plans about which they are knowledgeable. *Altoona to Pittsburgh over Horse Shoe Curve*, by Doug Taylor, published in the May 1998 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale. *Lessons of the South Penn*, by Neal Schorr, published in the April 1997 issue of Model Railroader (an earlier article appeared in the May 1990 issue of Model Railroader). Models the never completed South Pennsylvania RR from Conway Yard west of Pittsburgh to Enola Yard near Harrisburg over what is in reality today the Pennsylvania Turnpike. HO scale, 16' by 24', 30" minimum radius curves, number 6 turnouts, 1.8% maximum grade, walk around design. Mid to large size layout. *Pennsylvania Railroad Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions*, by John Armstrong, published in _Twenty Custom Designed Track Plans_, Kalmbach Publishers. Models Harrisburg to Pittsburgh (both represented by loops) over Horseshoe Curve including representation of Altoona. Features Spruce Tunnels, Jacks Narrows along the Juniata River, a steel mill, jumpover track, Rockville Bridge, Cresson, Gallitizin, Allegheny and New Portage Tunnels. S scale, 24' by 32', 48" minimum radius mainline curves, mostly number 6 turnouts, 2.5% maximum grade, walk around design. Large size layout. *A Bedroom-sized HO Pennsy Layout*, by John Winter, published in the March 1997 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale. *Horse Shoe Curve*, by Franklin Doeringer, published in the September 1996 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. N scale, 8' by 10', circa 1870's. *Pennsylvania Railroad Northeastern Division*, by Dave Messer, published in the June 1996 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. HO scale. *What If The Pennsylvania Railroad Had Taken Over*, by Dave Messer, published in the October 1995 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. 23 1/2' by 32'. *Ken McCorry*s Pennsylvania Railroad*, published in the March 1994 issue of Railmodel Journal. HO scale, 31' by 79', bi-level. *The Pennsylvania RR, Eastern Division*, by Bill Gruber, published in the August 1993 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. HO scale. *Ken McCorry*s Buffalo Line Pennsylvania Railroad*, published in the May 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal (a n earlier article appeared in the November 1992 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman). HO scale, 16' by 32', four levels. *Bob Davis* Pennsylvania Railroad Blue Mountain Division*, published in the March 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal. HO scale. *It*s September 1950 on the PRR*, by Dave Frary, published in the January 1993 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale. *Pennsylvania Railroad*, by Dave Frary, a nine part series published in Model Railroader beginning in January 1993. The series of articles were also later published by Kalmbach as a book _The Pennsy Middle Division in HO Scale_. HO scale, 11' by 16'. *Gary Salzgaber*s HO Pennsylvania Middle Division*, by Jim Hediger, published in the March 1992 issue of Model Railroader (earlier articles appeared in the March 1889 issue of Model Railroading and the March 1981 issue of Model Railroader). HO scale, 22' by 33', *E* shaped layout. *Dave Messer*s Pennsylvania Northern Railroad*, published in the February 1990 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. HO scale. *Pennsylvania Railroad Harrisburg to Buffalo, New York*, by Mark Olstyn, published in the November 1989 issue of Model Railroading. HO scale. * Remembering the Pennsylvania RR*, by Ken Pearson, published in the November 1988 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale, giant layout. *Joe Folco*s Pennsylvania Railroad*, published in the May 1986 issue of Model Railroading. HO scale, 21' by 22'. *The Central Ontario goes Pennsy*, by Eric Brunger, published in the September 1985 issue of Model Railroader. O scale, 32' by 32'. *Bellefonte Central and Pennsylvania Railroad Interchange*, by Robert Schleicher, published in the March 1985 issue of Model Railroading. HO Scale, 9' by 12'. *Pennsylvania Railroad Mainline*, by Robert Schleicher, published in the March 1985 issue of Model Railroading. N scale, 9' by 12', and HO scale 18' by 24'. *Silk City Model Railroad Club Pennsylvania Railroad*, published in the January 1985 issue of Model Railroading. HO scale, 40' by 100'. *Timefreeze: 1946 on the PRR*, by Jim Schwingle, published in the November 1983 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. HO scale, 10' by 25'. *Al Notarione*s Pennsylvania and Westbrook Railroad*, by Bram Bailey, published in the November 1982 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale. *North Penn Club*s North Pennsylvania Railroad Company, Ltd.*, by Dave Reichey, published in the March 1982 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale. *Pennsylvania Railroad Seashore Lines*, by Louis Fols, published in the August 1978 issue of Model Railroader. N scale. *Pennsylvania Railroad Scioto Valley Subdivision*, by Lloyd Miller, published in the June 1977 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale, 8' by 22'. *Pennsylvania, Santa Fe and Pacific System*, by David Waddington, published in the October 1976 issue of Model Railroader. O scale. *Dick Kendall*s Pennsylvania Railroad Grayton Road Division*, by Don Coppola, published in the October 1975 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale, includes horseshoe curve. *Richard Bradley*s Pennsylvania and Maryland Railroad*, published in the September 1972 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. HO scale. *Alex Landesco*s Pennsylvania Model Railroad*, published in the July 1965 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. HO scale. *Maryland and Pennsylvania*, by Model Railroader Staff, a multi-part series published in Model Railroader beginning in December 1964. HO scale. *A. A. Landesco Jr.*s Pennsylvania Model Railroad*, published in the April 1964 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman. HO scale. *Zoo Junction - A Super Plan for a Club*, by Paul W. Borthwick, published in the December 1958 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale. *Pennsylvania Railroad*, by John Armstrong, published in the July 1954 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale, 12' by 19', includes horseshoe curve. *Roy Wagner*s Pennsylvania Southern*, published in the April 1947 issue of Model Railroader. O scale, 22' by 26' *Gallitizin/Cresson Area*, published in the April 1940 issue of Model Railroader. *The Pennsylvania Model Railroad*, by Harry Albrecht, published in the January 1934 issue of Model Railroader. HO scale. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:13:06 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] HO PRR Decals Content-Length: 2044 Hi all, 2 quick qestions: 1) Anyone have a phone # for Middle Division Decals? I sent an order in April and still haven't seen it! On the plus side, the check wasn't cashed either. 2) Anyone have any ideas for sources of HO scale PRR express reefer (R50, R60) decals? The paint on my Railworks R60 looks nice, but some letters would make it look a lot better! I'm looking for pre 1953 gold lettering, and while I can piece everything else together form "headend" sets, the one thing I am missing is "REFRIGERATOR" lettering. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:45:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] REPOWERING MP SHARKS Content-Length: 1531 In a message dated 98-08-05 17:24:51 EDT, Kevin Tully writes: << If you are able to restrain yourselves long enough (a few months) Liberty Models will be producing frames for the A and B units that will accept Athearn trucks and be ready to accept Athearn motors, but will come with a cradle that the modeler can use to add weight and use an ALCo Products or NWSL (Sagami) motor. We will also be producing frames for the Model Power C430 and Atlas C424/425 that will accept Athearn trucks/motor. >> Not to be a smartass, but why? My Model Power Shark was an infinitely better runner than any Athearn locomotive built before I began tinkering with it to put decoders in (now the A is stil OK, but the B has a little growl--both crawl smoothly). Was later production of poorer quality? I don't have a C424/425: was that chassis worse than Atlas usual best? My RS3 and S2 are among the best running locomotives I have ever run. My biggest complaint about the sharks was that NWSL doesn't supply replacement solid nickel silver wheels like they do for Athearn: I admit keeping the wheels clean is a chore. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] philly fanning Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:26:51 -0400 Content-Length: 803 I now have a web page, to be updated further soon Tell me what you think: www.geocities.com/motorcity/track/8910/ I will be taking a seven day amtrak ride/railfan trip starting tomorow, we will be through Philly, any good spots to catch SEPTA and AMTK? Our final destination is Sandpatch. Is there a Transit stop(rail or subway]that is close to Zoo Interlocking?? What spots give you a good view of the plant? thanks Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:42:45 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: More Job Evals - Apology Content-Length: 1175 Steve, I don't know about anybody else, but I'm no purist when it comes to having the occassional laugh on the list, even if not RR related. Thanks for the mistake, I loved them. Charlie Fox Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > To the Group, > A sincere apology if my totally Non-railroad posting got in the way. I > carelessly confused two email addresses, both starting with "PRR." > > Steve Bartlett > > Bill, > Oops!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:18:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Track Plans Content-Length: 911 Bill Laird & all Without getting up from my stiff old chair, didn't John Armstrong have a sizable track plan based on the Williamsport/Elmira Branch trackage in , was it "18 Tailor Made Track Plans"? I'll look it up, but it did have some good history . Regrettably, it was set in the early (ugh) Penn Central era. John also featured a Pennsy based layout in "Creative Track Planning", and one of his later books has a layout based on Richmond Ohio in the steam/diesil era. Gotta look closer, now that ya got my curiosity up. Later, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:16:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] REPOWERING MP SHARKS Content-Length: 851 On Wed, 5 Aug 1998 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > My Model Power Shark was an infinitely better runner than any Athearn > locomotive built before I began tinkering with it to put decoders in (now the > A is stil OK, but the B has a little growl--both crawl smoothly). Was later > production of poorer quality? Quality of the various runs, well, it varied. Some have those nice powerful "fat" can motors, which others have motors which can barely pull the engine, or so it seems... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:31:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Layouts (was Concerning Horseshoe Curve) -Long Content-Length: 937 In a message dated 98-08-05 21:02:21 EDT, Bill Laird writes: << I will start off by offering a some incomplete references and challenging others to add information about these and others track plans about which they are knowledgeable. >> Wonderful job! Thanks. I know of at least one other around the room layout (maybe another John Armstrong) in the 50's or early 60's in MR. Basicly a large oval with a branchline, online coaling station. The magazine is in mover's boxes, but I might be able to find a photocopy in my files which gives the date. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] new Bowser PRR tender From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 08:39:47 -0400 Content-Length: 1458 Bowser's website has a picture of a new tender, advertised as a PRR 13,000 gallon car. Has anyone actually seen this? Is it any better than Bowser's previous tenders? Elliot Fishbein ========= It indeed is a 130P?? - THE CORRECT TENDER FOR A K4! For years Bowser (and PennLine) had put an L1 tender behind their K4s. I had kitbashed the 130P?? tender for my K4s from the "long distance" tender (210F??) that they offer with the I1. The new tender is not only correct for a K4, its a much better casting! The rivets are no longer 1950 technology. The irony is that the new tender I saw came with an L1 !! The old tender was the right one for L1s. regards Andy Miller - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Commuters to Harrisburg in 1954 Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 10:41:14 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1419 I am creating a consolidated list of movements through Harrisburg Station for a 24 hour period in 1954. (This will be on the web when complete.) I have all of the passenger trains (54 of them!) from the Sept. 26 Form 1 Public Timetable of east-west trains (includes north-south trains). Absent are commuter trains between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. What Form # (schedule) would these be on and does anyone have one? I have an ETT coming from a "PRR-Talker" which will provide the freight info needed. I will "guestimate" times for movements of cars between trains and to/from the coach yard. Missing will be head-end car movements -- as these are not documented -- and motive power changes. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:38:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] To brass, or not to brass... Content-Length: 902 In a message dated 98-08-09 16:21:32 EDT, staffsgtyork@juno.com writes: << I've noticed that Railworks is bringing out an X50/51 boxcar, and Rail Classics is bringing out an X40 boxcar and a R-50B express reefer. Is there any resin, wood, or plastic kits available for these? >> Assuming you're talking HO, Red Ball made a wood/cast metal kit for the R-50B express reefer. Cast sides and ends were about 1/8" thick. Roof and interior form were solid wood. Made a HEAVY car! I don't think it's still available. John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Jerry's PRR museum note Content-Length: 1312 Gang, Does anyone know if the museum accepts volunteer help? I am a member of the PRRT&HS for three years now, and have offered one full weekend every other month to work at the Lewistown station, picking garbage, mowing lawn, planting/tending flowers, or whatever, numerous times. However my offers have fallen on deaf ears. Mr Kealy said to be patient. How long should I wait? I must admit if it were not for the PRR talkers I would have resigned long ago. At least you guys respond to me. I am willing to make the same offer to the museum if they accept volunteers. As for Lewistown, I wouldnt even pick up a gum wrapper. Any one else have any distastfulness with the Society protocall? (I use that terminology for lack of any other as I have met some very wonderful people in the society and I would be a dung hole to point the finger at those who have no control over such matters). Thanks. You guys are the best. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:52:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuters to Harrisburg in 1954 Content-Length: 1953 In a message dated 98-08-10 10:45:45 EDT, you write: << I have all of the passenger trains (54 of them!) from the Sept. 26 Form 1 Public Timetable of east-west trains (includes north-south trains). Absent are commuter trains between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. What Form # (schedule) would these be on and does anyone have one? I have an ETT coming from a "PRR-Talker" which will provide the freight info needed. I will "guestimate" times for movements of cars between trains and to/from the coach yard. Missing will be head-end car movements -- as these are not documented -- and motive power changes. >> ***Jerry, my 1954 PRR ETT will show them, shows all regular trains...it HAS to, to convey schedule authority. The ETT and Rule Book combined is our "Bible"..... And, check with Chuck B. for the 9 / 1954 Consist Book copy...it will show cars / set-outs / pick-ups, as in: Train #11, lists full consist in make-up order, days operated for EACH CAR......and destination of EACH CAR. For example, on #11: Except Sun / Mon, and Hol. " Express X-29, dest. Harrisburg" "Express B-60, dest. Harrisburg" "Express B-60 Gold Star, dest. Pittsburgh Div., To #13 Hbg." No guessing or speculating is needed at all !!!! With the ETT and Consist books, you can re-create >car - for - car< trains and psgr moves....EXACTLY. I did my research for my Northern Central this way... And....The motive power changes are why ALL thru trains had at least a 5 minute Ar/Lv spread. even "no station work" trains like #28 / 29, B'way Ltd. .Bill**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuters to Harrisburg in 1954 Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 12:22:51 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2185 On 8/10/98 11:52 AM, PRRSignals@aol.com (PRRSignals@aol.com) wrote: >***Jerry, my 1954 PRR ETT will show them, shows all regular trains...it HAS >to, to convey schedule authority. The ETT and Rule Book combined is our >"Bible"..... Duh!!! With the ETT en route from you, I just didn't think that it would include them...but of course it does! > >And, check with Chuck B. for the 9 / 1954 Consist Book copy...it will show >cars / set-outs / pick-ups, as in: > >Train #11, lists full consist in make-up order, days operated for EACH >CAR......and destination of EACH CAR. Except for head-end cars, this I already have, from the Form 4. This book that you speak of, who published it, how big is it, and how do I go about getting a copy? > >For example, on #11: Except Sun / Mon, and Hol. " Express X-29, dest. >Harrisburg" >"Express B-60, dest. Harrisburg" "Express B-60 Gold Star, dest. Pittsburgh >Div., To #13 Hbg." No guessing or speculating is needed at all !!!! > >With the ETT and Consist books, you can re-create >car - for - car< trains >and psgr moves....EXACTLY. I did my research for my Northern Central this >way... EXACTLY what I am trying to do! The Form 4 shows what passenger cars need to go where, but no mention of baggage or head-end. Thanks for the tip. > >And....The motive power changes are why ALL thru trains had at least a 5 >minute Ar/Lv spread. even "no station work" trains like #28 / 29, B'way Ltd. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Jerry's PRR museum note Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 13:31:12 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 3374 On 8/10/98 11:45 AM, RICHARD ADER (RLA0220@webtv.net) wrote: >Does anyone know if the museum accepts volunteer help? LOL!!! Yes, they accept...and require...volunteer help. It is volunteers that offer interpretation throughout the museum. It is volunteers that restore the equipment. It is volunteers -- or lack thereof -- that often prevents the outside yard from being open to the public at all times. Their site is at http://www.rrhistorical-2.com/frm/Welcome/welframe.htm There is a page on volunteer opportunities. If nothing else, join the Friends of the Railroad Museum. I did. For $25 a year you'll support the museum, get five issues of "The Milepost" a year (b/w mini-magazine), and free admission to the museum anytime (for yourself, spouse, children, and grandparents of your children!). >I am a member of >the PRRT&HS for three years now, and have offered one full weekend every >other month >to work at the Lewistown station, picking garbage, mowing lawn, >planting/tending flowers, or whatever, numerous times. >However my offers have fallen on deaf ears. >Mr Kealy said to be patient. How long should I wait? I must admit if >it were not for the PRR talkers I would have resigned long ago. At >least you guys respond to me. I am willing to >make the same offer to the museum if they >accept volunteers. As for Lewistown, I wouldnt even pick up a gum >wrapper. Any one >else have any distastfulness with the Society >protocall? (I use that terminology for lack of >any other as I have met some very wonderful people in the society and I >would be a dung hole to point the finger at those who have no control >over such matters). The majority opinion is that the society has deaf ears! Go back to the fact that they want to hear nothing of publishing an index of their archives on the net. That would be "giving away information". I view it as opening up shop to take orders! If I am correct, one must be a member of the society for five years running in order to serve on the board. I am only in year two. IMHO, we, the Internet "PRR-Talk" community, must move towards board representation. That is the only way we will get our ideas across and they will be forced to listen! However, we must also respect those who have served so long and so hard. I am currently writing a book that will be published by the society in 2000. I could not do that on my own. Jim Lynch has lent me images for the book. Chuck Blardone has been instrumental. "The Keystone" is a first class publication. My point: I don't want to burn bridges...I want to reinforce and expand them! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:02:25 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: [PRR] Jerry's PRR museum note Content-Length: 1256 Dear Richard, The museum at Strasburg has a considerable organization of volunteers called Friends of the Railroad Museum of Penna. I've been a member for I can't remember how long, since it started, and my only regret is that I live so far away that participation is impractical. But they get the benefit of my dues, and I have free admission to the museum If you would like to join, I'm sure you could find a member volunteering around there any time the musem is open. By all means, check it out. You could write to them care of the museum, too. Jim ************************************************************* James R. Hunter Department of Sociology Indiana University - Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Blvd. Indianapolis, IN 46202 office: 317-274-7998 E-mail: jhunter@iupui.edu ************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:45:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Jerry's PRR museum note Content-Length: 631 Write "Friends of the Railroad Museum of Pa" (Lancaster) They would be happy to have your help as a volunteer "Docent" (guide - explainer) or on restoration projects I am a member of the "FRM" also - but from Cleveland my contributions are strictly financial Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:44:32 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Is it real, or . . . Content-Length: 2365 >Can anyone comment on whether the Athearn 34' Cupola Caboose matches any >prototpe PRR cabin cars? There is a picture of it on pg 136 of the 1998 >Walthers HO catalogue. Ed, Sorry, the athearn car isn't a match for any PRR cars. For commercially available kits you have the following choices: N5A Bowser RTR (ready to run, with a few screws) N5C Bowser RTR (ready to run, with a few screws) N6A Gloor Craft wood kit (craftsman style) N6B Gloor Craft wood kit (craftsman style) ND (4 wheel bobber) Gloor Craft wood kit (craftsman style) N8 Pending from Liberty Models...resin kit The Bowser models are nice, but can be greatly improved by simply shaving off the molded on grabs and adding wire or plastic grabs, and windows. Also a repsint to a more appropriately red "Freight Car Color" is in order - the Bowser color is tooooooo brown. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 16:02:29 CST Subject: Re: [PRR] Jerry's PRR museum note Content-Length: 1640 On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:45:41 -0400 (ED, RICHARD ADER wrote: >Gang, >Does anyone know if the museum accepts volunteer help? I am a member of >the PRRT&HS for three years now, and have offered one full weekend every Hi, all, As far as I know, the RR Museum of PA at Strasburg has a very active volunteer program, including a magazine that comes out quarterly (I think). My experience with knowing a few of them leads to believe it's a good bunch. Living outside Chicago precludes my more active involvement (sob!) As for Lewistown, I wouldnt even pick up a gum >wrapper. Any one >else have any distastfulness with the Society >protocall? I don't know what the PRRT&HS did, but a few years ago they really brassed off some of the older local guys who had been "manning" the station, a few of whom I know. The result - some of them are no longer involved. I only heard their side of the story but it left me with the impression that some of the PRRT&HS guys have a talent for this - not wise in a volunteer (or anyother) organization. And trust me...this posting will not be the only one along these lines! PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:04:21 -0700 From: Craig Bowman Subject: [PRR] For Sale: HO Key T-1 Content-Length: 666 For Sale: HO Key/Samhongsa T-1, latest run, coast drive, #6111, with booster, factory paint, big round keystone on tender, correct for 1942. Best offer over $1600. Also, looking for Key H-6 tender only, with double rivet line for coal slope sheet on side. Please contact me off-line. Craig Bowman ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:08:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuters to Harrisburg in 1954 Content-Length: 670 In a message dated 98-08-10 14:36:40 EDT, Jerry writes: << This book that you speak of, who published it, how big is it, and how do I go about getting a copy? >> Chuck Blardone sells photocopies for various regions, divisions, eras (20's through Amtrak). Prices vary by number of pages. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:05:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Emporium/ Railpace Content-Length: 1039 Dennis, The Railpace issue with the Emporium/Northern Central coverage is April, 1989. The article was titled "Railfanning Conrail's Buffalo Line", which seems to be a favorite area for many of us Pennsy fans. One fella had contacted them, or at least their website, and it seems they may be out. More than likely you've got a better connection to them than most of us, since the only number I saw listed was an automated one. Could you please post their current address and any good phone number to the Pennsy list? Some of the guys have been asking, and I imagine you could give them a better steer than I could, if I'm not being presumpuous. Thanks much. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:04:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Jerry's PRR museum note Content-Length: 731 I'm a member of the Maryland & Pennsylvania RR Preservation & Historical Society. The Ma&Pa NW-2 that's being restored at the Museum is being done with our memberships help. I would assume the other equipment is being helped along through volunteers. I would suggest contacting the Museum with the question as to when they work and what's required to volunteer. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:47:22 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Is it real, or . . . Content-Length: 3384 Howdy all. The old Mantua/Tyco caboose - mid to late 70's - could be kit-bashed into a nice/close N8. The article was in RMC, sorry mine are all packed away. The only major job was to cut the cupola out and turn it around. I still see them at swap meets and shows. Its not an exact match, but for about $20.00 - for the caboose, trucks, couplers, decals and misc detail parts - you can turn the caboose into a cabin. The last brass Alpha N8 I saw, they wanted over $100.00 for it. cos Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > >Can anyone comment on whether the Athearn 34' Cupola Caboose matches any > >prototpe PRR cabin cars? There is a picture of it on pg 136 of the 1998 > >Walthers HO catalogue. > > Ed, > > Sorry, the athearn car isn't a match for any PRR cars. For commercially > available kits you have the following choices: > > N5A Bowser RTR (ready to run, with a few screws) > N5C Bowser RTR (ready to run, with a few screws) > N6A Gloor Craft wood kit (craftsman style) > N6B Gloor Craft wood kit (craftsman style) > ND (4 wheel bobber) Gloor Craft wood kit (craftsman style) > > N8 Pending from Liberty Models...resin kit > > The Bowser models are nice, but can be greatly improved by simply shaving > off the molded on grabs and adding wire or plastic grabs, and windows. > Also a repsint to a more appropriately red "Freight Car Color" is in order > - the Bowser color is tooooooo brown. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and > Director, Nucleic Acid Services > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > ******************************************************************************** > If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup > trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number > of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great > literary works in Braille. > ******************************************************************************** > Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:06:10 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR X31F From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 812 Hey All! 'Bout to order my X31F, but have a question. Are the 2D F12 trucks that Sunshine sells in white metal the same as the Bowser coil and leaf spring trucks in their X31 kits? Thanks, SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:15:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] new Bowser PRR tender From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Content-Length: 2889 Actually, if you want to be really correct about it, the old tender appears to be decended from a casting produced by a company whose name I forgot about thirty years ago. It seems the Pennsy H9 2-8-0 castings date back to just after (maybe before) WWII to a company before Penn Line. The old K4/L1 tender was the H9 tender with a tender collar (coal boards) added. It wasn't correct for either the K4 or the L1. It sort of resembled the L1 tender, especially at a distance if you are nearsighted and forgot your glasses. Now, is somebody going to offer deals on the new tenders like Liberty did a few months ago on T1 boilers and tenders? Pat Egan On Mon, 10 Aug 98 08:39:47 -0400 asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) writes: > >Bowser's website has a picture of a new tender, advertised as a PRR >13,000 >gallon car. Has anyone actually seen this? Is it any better than >Bowser's >previous tenders? > >Elliot Fishbein >========= > >It indeed is a 130P?? - THE CORRECT TENDER FOR A K4! For years Bowser >(and >PennLine) had put an L1 tender behind their K4s. I had kitbashed the >130P?? >tender for my K4s from the "long distance" tender (210F??) that they >offer with >the I1. The new tender is not only correct for a K4, its a much >better >casting! The rivets are no longer 1950 technology. The irony is >that the new >tender I saw came with an L1 !! The old tender was the right one for >L1s. > >regards >Andy Miller > >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF >database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- >For >assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:15:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] new Bowser PRR tender From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Content-Length: 2889 Actually, if you want to be really correct about it, the old tender appears to be decended from a casting produced by a company whose name I forgot about thirty years ago. It seems the Pennsy H9 2-8-0 castings date back to just after (maybe before) WWII to a company before Penn Line. The old K4/L1 tender was the H9 tender with a tender collar (coal boards) added. It wasn't correct for either the K4 or the L1. It sort of resembled the L1 tender, especially at a distance if you are nearsighted and forgot your glasses. Now, is somebody going to offer deals on the new tenders like Liberty did a few months ago on T1 boilers and tenders? Pat Egan On Mon, 10 Aug 98 08:39:47 -0400 asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) writes: > >Bowser's website has a picture of a new tender, advertised as a PRR >13,000 >gallon car. Has anyone actually seen this? Is it any better than >Bowser's >previous tenders? > >Elliot Fishbein >========= > >It indeed is a 130P?? - THE CORRECT TENDER FOR A K4! For years Bowser >(and >PennLine) had put an L1 tender behind their K4s. I had kitbashed the >130P?? >tender for my K4s from the "long distance" tender (210F??) that they >offer with >the I1. The new tender is not only correct for a K4, its a much >better >casting! The rivets are no longer 1950 technology. The irony is >that the new >tender I saw came with an L1 !! The old tender was the right one for >L1s. > >regards >Andy Miller > >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF >database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- >For >assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:25:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Emporium Content-Length: 1932 Greetings! I have wanted to put my two cents in but have just now found the time. At Emporium the Erie maim line diverged from the Buffalo Division main. It was called, in 1946, the Renovo Division. There were several passenger trains to and from Erie through Emporium. All this is from memory as I don't have time to get out my research so forgive any mistakes. An early am departure from Erie with an all stops local usually with a K4 as power. This train returned in the evening to Erie. it connected at Renovo with the Buffalo Day Express. The Northern and Southern Expresses were the named trains over the Erie main. Usually powered by an M1 it had Pullman service from Erie to New York, Washington and Philadelphia and an Oil City-New York Pullman via a connection at Corry with #970/971(?) known locally as "The Jerk". Freight service was by trains W5 and W2, I think. These were Renovo to Erie trains. General merchandise including reefers from the Purple Emperor. Among the locals was EK, the Erie-Kane turn. An interdivisional train, BEC, Ran Buffalo to Corry and then on the Renovo division to Erie. Then down the E & A to New Castle and Crestline. Much mineral traffic also ran out of Erie to central Pa from the ore docks here. If there is interest and if I can find the time I will put together a more accurate description of the Renovo-Erie traffic circa 1946. I model this line in 1946 and run as much of the actual trains that ran then with accurate power, ect. Don Murphy Recreating operations on the Renovo Division in 1946. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:25:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuters to Harrisburg in 1954 Content-Length: 1400 In a message dated 98-08-10 14:36:40 EDT, you write: << >And, check with Chuck B. for the 9 / 1954 Consist Book copy...it will show >cars / set-outs / pick-ups, as in: > >Train #11, lists full consist in make-up order, days operated for EACH >CAR......and destination of EACH CAR. Except for head-end cars, this I already have, from the Form 4. This book that you speak of, who published it, how big is it, and how do I go about getting a copy? > >> ***The Consist Books were published by the P R R on a regular basis...at one time, with every ETT date / change. About the size of an ETT, list EVERYTHING about psgr train make-up, every single head end car as per my example with train # 11. Chuck Blardone sells copies of many of these books, spanning 1925 to the < sob > end of the P R R. His address is in the fine KEYSTONE Magazine, of which he is the Editor....and a fine one, at that..!!!! ...I say that honestly, and not just because he publishes my P R R Crossword Puzzles..!!!!......Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] new Bowser PRR tender Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:10:14 -0500 Content-Length: 2832 More tenders--Although I have not seen one in person yet, the full size picture of Bowser's new 130P?? on their website looks really good. Comparing it to the info presented in The Keystone, Vol. 21, No. 1, Spring 1988, Bowser has done us SPF's a real service. In the 50's the vast majority were used with K4's, but some found their way to M1's (the last of the class to pull passengers), I1's (particularly on the Elmira Branch), and a small number to L1's. Other than with the K4's, a doghouse would have been commonly added. This tender was a good choice because it has wide application. Thanks Bowser. Now if some one will do a 110P??...Liberty, how about it? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller To: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] new Bowser PRR tender > >Bowser's website has a picture of a new tender, advertised as a PRR 13,000 >gallon car. Has anyone actually seen this? Is it any better than Bowser's >previous tenders? > >Elliot Fishbein >========= > >It indeed is a 130P?? - THE CORRECT TENDER FOR A K4! For years Bowser (and >PennLine) had put an L1 tender behind their K4s. I had kitbashed the 130P?? >tender for my K4s from the "long distance" tender (210F??) that they offer with >the I1. The new tender is not only correct for a K4, its a much better >casting! The rivets are no longer 1950 technology. The irony is that the new >tender I saw came with an L1 !! The old tender was the right one for L1s. > >regards >Andy Miller > >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF >database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- For >assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:12:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X31F Content-Length: 985 In a message dated 98-08-10 23:14:07 EDT, SSgt York writes: << Bout to order my X31F, but have a question. Are the 2D F12 trucks that Sunshine sells in white metal the same as the Bowser coil and leaf spring trucks in their X31 kits? >> Unless there is some rivet I failed to count, they are. Although I like the weight of the metal Stewart trucks under an o