From: KEMACPRR Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:04:09 EST Subject: [PRR] New Bachman hoppers Content-Length: 1051 Any late PRR modelers out there might want to take a look at the new 100 ton H-43a hoppers offered by Bachman. I picked up a six pak two weeks ago at a GATS meet and am very impressed with what I got. Metal wheels which are concentric and in gauge. Mc Henry couplers with screw mountings so you can easily change to what ever brand you like. Weights concealed behind the slope sheets like the Bowser. Slope sheet braces installed and interior braces to be installed by you. The painting and lettering is crisp much better than the Bowser versions the only thing possibly wrong is the road numbers on side of car might be a tad small but the yellow ball is sharp and solid. I saw road names of PRR,RDG (speed lettering) CR, N&W, and WM in the gray stone scheme. Quite a shoch for a Bachman product but nice to see. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:17:58 EST Subject: [PRR] Height of Head end cars Content-Length: 1043 All of the talk yesterday regarding the hight of AT&SF Express cars and the NY City tunnels brought to my mind how did these cars compare with the old PRR Balloon Top Cars. These cars had a higher height to accommodate sets for broadway shows, and were named for past broadway shows. My father was the first President of ICE CAPADES and I can recall talk in my youth that the show could move with five of these cars where it would require seven normal baggage cars. Since the only way you could get a baggage car was to buy 80 passanger tickets (as I recall). Moving with two less cars was a big saving. I know that Both Ice Capades and Ice Follies would latch on to five of these cars each fall for thr tour of the east and arrange all their travel with the PRR. The trip to Calif. each year was made with two extra cars. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 00:42:07 EST From: robs@protocol.zycad.com (Robert Schoenberg) Subject: Re: [PRR] Height of Head end cars Content-Length: 1500 Not sure how high the ATSF cars were but the roofline of the PRR's B60's and B70's & B74's were all 14'-0.5" above the railhead. (The vents on some were 2-6" above the roof - B60-s were 14'6" high to the vents...) Rob >All of the talk yesterday regarding the hight of AT&SF Express cars and the NY >City tunnels brought to my mind how did these cars compare with the old PRR >Balloon Top Cars. These cars had a higher height to accommodate sets for >broadway shows, and were named for past broadway shows. My father was the >first President of ICE CAPADES and I can recall talk in my youth that the show >could move with five of these cars where it would require seven normal baggage >cars. Since the only way you could get a baggage car was to buy 80 passanger >tickets (as I recall). Moving with two less cars was a big saving. I know that >Both Ice Capades and Ice Follies would latch on to five of these cars each >fall for thr tour of the east and arrange all their travel with the PRR. The >trip to Calif. each year was made with two extra cars. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:18:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Answers not Frustrations Content-Length: 1866 In a message dated 98-03-31 06:38:47 EST, you write: << getting them straight after >they are on the car. >> Jerry, Here is my little secret and I trust you can keep it (LOL), it also works on the single stripes for your diesels as well. After you have slid the decal off the well soaked film at a very low angle. Hold the decal at left end of the car (right side if you are left handed) and with a Number 0 paint brush soaked in water slide the paint brush under the decal keeping it in contact with the model and moving away from the stationary end. The decal will naturally lift, so don't prompt it, and adjust the line only slightly to keep it straigth. Also Jerry I did not catch whose decals you are using, but I use only Champ and will continue to until Micro Scale get the color closer to the prototype. I realize that the Champ decals are shorter and require more splicing, but this system works. Remember a couple of things, cut the stripes on a piece of glass with a metal ruler and straight edged razor blade (not an Xacto knife) as the width of the blade is smaller. Let the decal dry completely before you add the diluted decal setting solution, I use Solvaset. Jerry my Meadow Brook car has won a 1st place at NMRA/DENVER `91, RPM/PORTLAND `94 and it was done the very same way. I will be doing an article later this year on a Cascade Series car, would you like me to photograph the technique in the article? Just don't wait til then to do the car, it was a New Years Resolution in MM Jan `98 commentary and you know how they go, LOL . Watching and sharing from LINES way out WEST... Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Disconcerting News Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 06:13:14 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2273 I just received a three page letter from Douglas, Madison, & Weibly, a law firm out of Norfolk, Virginia, acting on behalf of an unstated "Client." I'll scan in the letter tonight so everyone can see it, but the gist is this: I am being asked, rather bluntly, to "cease and desist" the following, with regards to "the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, hereafter referred to as 'the Corporation'"... 1. the continued use of the Corporation's 'Keystone' logo, in any form, size, or variation, for any purpose whatsoever (e.g. "Keystone Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); 2. any other logos attributable to said Corporation, including but not limited to Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, 5 gold pinstripe, circle keystone, shadow keystone, lettering 'PENNSYLVANIA' in Futura or Craw Clarendon fonts, any images of Corporation including but not limited to Grif Teller paintings not in the public domain or privately held, ... (e.g. "Keystone Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); 3. the continued electronic distribution of any documents published by the Corproation, by CD-ROM, Internet, or other means (e.g. "Keystone Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); 4. the continued electronic distribution via Internet mailing list (e.g. "PRR-Talk") the implication of being an official source of information regarding the Corporation The letter continues, "full compliance is expected by April 15, 1998 to avert legal action on the part of the Client. This request is being enacted to protect the legal trademarks and copyrights of the Corporation as they pertain to reutilization in the coming months." Did anyone else get one of these? Sounds like we better distribute and download while we can. Perhaps a fire sale on "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" CD-ROMs? BTW: I'm having my attorney look into it. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:05:00 -0500 From: Vincent Troia Subject: [PRR] Pennsy and B&O Content-Length: 5396 To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com I have been investigating If the PRR and the B&O would have had parallel trackage (possibly 4-track) or more specifically, where you may have seen the Pennsy passing the B&O, during the the transition era? I am considering this concept as a model. I would appreciate additional input from the PRR group. A summary of the responses from the B&O list are as follows: 1. Yes, heading north out of Washington DC, both lines were right next to each other out beyond Ivy City, along New York Avenue. There were a few "races" along that stretch. Many photos have been published of these events. And, the Pennsy's freight bypass line, the one that went along the Anacostia River to bypass Union Station, carried freights of both the Pennsy and the B&O. Freight trains rejoined the passenger tracks just outside the 1st Street tunnel and then ran across the Potomac River over the Long Bridge next to the Jefferson Memorial and into Potomac Yard. The B&O normally ran 2-8-2's in Washington freight service. Diesels were F's and FA's when I was watching. 2. Yes, the B&O and PRR shared the C&N Division between Newark, Ohio and Columbus. 3. Seeing as how the B&O and the Pennsy were bitter rivals it would seem unlikely that they would ever share their respective tracks. At least as far as Main Lines. One place they did have parallel tracks was in the Washington D.C. area (from Union Station to Ivy City Yard?) One tack you might take is to model a passenger station that they both used. Another possibility is in the Turtle Creek/Pittsburgh steel mill areas. Many roads were crowded together in these areas. Maybe others will come up with some other locations. With the amount of trackage they both had there must be more. Wish I could be more help since I model both roads, however in different locations (B&O in W.V. and Pennsy from Altoona to Johnstown). I do know that B&O also served Johnstown, Pa. but don't know how close their tracks were. 4. Now it's not 4-track, but don't forget the Columbus & Newark Division. That's 33 miles of track between Columbus and Newark, Ohio. Seemed to have been operated by B&O, but saw far more PRR traffic. Employees' timetable No.26 of 9/24/50 shows 2 B&O passenger trains each way daily and 11 PRR trains. Double track and 70 mph speed limit. 5. While not a four track area the B&O and the Pennsy did share a double track area. This was located on the mainline to Chicago, more specifically between Akron, Ohio and Warwick (Clinton, Ohio), 16 miles I think. One main was B&O's while the other belonged to the Pennsy. This was operated as a double track mainline. 6. B&O used Reading and CNJ rails to get to the NY area from Philadelphia, and used the CNJ's Jersey City terminal. B&O never ran into Penn Station. Running into Penn would have required some additional track connections at Philadelphia or Elizabeth that did not exist, and a change of motive power to electric to access the Hudson River Tunnel and Penn Station. Didn't the B&O use Penn Station, NY for a while? If so, wouldn't they have run over the PRR main from Philadelphia to NY? The B&O did indeed run into Penn Station by edict of the USRA during and after WW I. The public timetable issued November 24, 1918 (USRA/B&O)showed all B&O trains using Penn Station, and stopping at Manhattan Transfer, 8.8 miles out. All but one of the trains had a conditional stop at Bound Brook. By the May 13, 1923 timetable, the trains were still doing this, and most showed a conditional stop at Meeker Street station in Newark, as well as in Bound Brook and Wayne Jct. on the Reading. Same in the timetable of August 1, 1925, with the notation that Meeker Street was the Lehigh Valley station. No mention of the CNJ station or Jersey City in any of these issues. ...by the March 1, 1927 timetable, the B&O was showing in and out of the CNJ Jersey City station, with bus connections to New York City points. Had I not been lazy as I started to write, I could have simply cited Harwood's "Royal Blue Line", which gives the date into Penn Station as April 28, 1918, noting that the routing east of Philadelphia was Reading/LV/PRR. Eviction date is given as September 1, 1926. B&O Baltimore Division East End employees' timetables of August, 1921 and September, 1924 show all trains running to Park Jct.. in Philadelphia, which would verify that they were still operating via the old Reading route. Running into Penn would have required some additional track connections at Philadelphia or Elizabeth that did not exist, This would have been PRR = NYC to Hunter Tower, LV = Hunter to near Bound Brook (possibly Port Reading Jct.., where the 1939 LV employees' timetable shows a "railroad grade crossing", which might have included an interchange track). ...and a change of motive power to electric to access the Hudson River Tunnel and Penn Station. Correct; that was done at Manhattan Transfer. That concludes the summary of the B&O responses. Thank you in advance! Vincent Troia ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Cabin Database Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 08:12:22 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 934 The source of the data for the Cabin Car database was a freight service report from circa 1957. That explains why it does not include cabins assigned to passenger service. I will collect data on cabins assigned to passenger service and have them added. The SPF database has only one bug left to be resolved; it should be online today. It will be privately linked with the URL added to the footer on "PRR-Talk". That is, it won't be linked to "Keystone Crossings" and I ask that no other web sites link to it. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Disconcerting News From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 08:37:38 -0500 Content-Length: 3010 Jerry, Sounds like the A/H who tried this some years ago is alive and well and living in Virginia. The last time, he registered the name PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD as his personal property in Indiana , as I recall, and tried to extort money from model manufacturers. He was laughed out of court. Has the PRRT&H Society heard of this? the NMRA? the NHIA? This may be one of the virtues of modeling a fallen flag. If the UP was to try this they might have some standing in court. regards, Andy Miller ============= I just received a three page letter from Douglas, Madison, & Weibly, a law firm out of Norfolk, Virginia, acting on behalf of an unstated "Client." I'll scan in the letter tonight so everyone can see it, but the gist is this: I am being asked, rather bluntly, to "cease and desist" the following, with regards to "the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, hereafter referred to as 'the Corporation'"... 1. the continued use of the Corporation's 'Keystone' logo, in any form, size, or variation, for any purpose whatsoever (e.g. "Keystone Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); 2. any other logos attributable to said Corporation, including but not limited to Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, 5 gold pinstripe, circle keystone, shadow keystone, lettering 'PENNSYLVANIA' in Futura or Craw Clarendon fonts, any images of Corporation including but not limited to Grif Teller paintings not in the public domain or privately held, ... (e.g. "Keystone Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); 3. the continued electronic distribution of any documents published by the Corproation, by CD-ROM, Internet, or other means (e.g. "Keystone Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); 4. the continued electronic distribution via Internet mailing list (e.g. "PRR-Talk") the implication of being an official source of information regarding the Corporation The letter continues, "full compliance is expected by April 15, 1998 to avert legal action on the part of the Client. This request is being enacted to protect the legal trademarks and copyrights of the Corporation as they pertain to reutilization in the coming months." Did anyone else get one of these? Sounds like we better distribute and download while we can. Perhaps a fire sale on "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" CD-ROMs? BTW: I'm having my attorney look into it. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! - ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Disconcerting News Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 08:57:34 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1124 On 4/1/98 9:37 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >Sounds like the A/H who tried this some years ago is alive and well and >living >in Virginia. The last time, he registered the name PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD as >his personal property in Indiana , as I recall, and tried to extort money >from >model manufacturers. He was laughed out of court. This did come from a law office, however, and not from any individual or business. > >Has the PRRT&H Society heard of this? the NMRA? the NHIA? This may be >one of >the virtues of modeling a fallen flag. If the UP was to try this they might >have some standing in court. Chuck Blardone quietly joined the list a few weeks ago. Chuck? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Belpaire Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:03:24 EST Subject: [PRR] LIRR Cabin Cars Cont. Content-Length: 524 Still looking for info on the history of the two N5's that went to the LIRR. The only source I have is Cabin Cars of the PRR and LIRR, which shows a picture, but doesn't give any background. Does anyone have an idea where I might be able to find out about these cars? Any help would be appreciated. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:05:17 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Web Content-Length: 383 Does anyone know what's happening with the PRRT&HS web pages? They haven't been updated since 9/27/97. I've e-mailed them with no response to when other than soon. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE-Keystone, Vol. 28, #1 - Baltimore Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 10:26:14 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 926 I just bought the entire volume 28 of "The Keystone". However, that gives me two copies of the Spring 1995 issue which is on Baltimore -- front to back. Condition is good. Copies are still available from the PRRT&HS for $10. I'll part with this one for $8, hand delivered to the PRRT&HS Convention next month (not cost effective to mail at this price). Anyone need it? OR I'll trade for one that I do not have...my index at http://prr.dsop.com/library/keystone.html has an "X" in the last column if I have it. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:28:13 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Disconcerting News Content-Length: 1193 In message <199804011122.FAA20493@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu> Jerry writes: > I just received a three page letter from Douglas, Madison, & Weibly, a > law firm out of Norfolk, Virginia, acting on behalf of an unstated > "Client." > "cease and desist" the > following, with regards to "the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, hereafter > referred to as 'the Corporation'"... > > 1. the continued use of the Corporation's 'Keystone' logo, in any form, > size, or variation, for any purpose whatsoever (e.g. "Keystone > Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); If this is valid and upheld, how can Bowser and everyone else manufacturing models of PRR engines and equipment continue to use the keystone emblem or the Pennsylvania decals, and how can the paint manufacturers continue to make "Brunswick Green" (aka DGLE)? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Web Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 10:40:20 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1736 On 4/1/98 11:05 AM, Huber25 (Huber25@aol.com) wrote: >Does anyone know what's happening with the PRRT&HS web pages? They haven't >been updated since 9/27/97. I've e-mailed them with no response to when other >than soon. Jeeeez....this is a good subject to check the "PRR-Talk" searchable archive for!!! Last summer and into the fall we had a very lengthy conversation on this list about the pathetic web site the PRRT&HS has. In fact, since the site's "What's New" page states "The whole site is since October 27" we questioned whether or not they'd have to change the site just to add the year following that statement!!! They didn't, and the content still sucks! Basically, the consensus opinion was that Mark Bej, Bruce Smith, Rob Schoenberg, myself, and perhaps a few others were providing much more valuable content than the society could ever hope to...given the number of volunteers they have and non-profit status. We did question whether or not we (Mark, Bruce, myself, etc.) could have access to the archives to either scan and post the material or at least post a list of what is in the archives. Actually, now that I have a database server online, that would be a great application for it: what IS in the archives! Recently Chuck Blardone joined the list. Care to comment, Chuck? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:31:28 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: [PRR] Mergers Content-Length: 490 Greetings, Does anyone know what year the Norfolk Southern corporation moved from Roanoake, va. to Norfolk, Va. Or was it the other way around??? Didn't they get a split with CSX of the Conrail system? Who got what??? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 12:07:43 CST Subject: [PRR] P2K E7's... Content-Length: 817 Hi, everyone, I seem to recall some of us trying to locate the P2K PRR E7 a and b's in DGLE 5-stripe. My local hobby shop had a number of both as of yesterday. If interested, call Right Track at (708) 388-3008 and talk to Roger, the owner. He's in the south suburbs of Chicago. He usually charges full retail. He's usually open from 11 am to about 7 pm. Hope this helps - I already did mine with CAry carbodies and don't have the heart to replace them. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 12:26:30 CST Subject: [PRR] New HO items... Content-Length: 642 Hi, gang, I had questions about two new items in recent MR's. May issue has an ad for PRR cantenary poles - anyone know more on this product? Also a few issues back was a mention of Ho and O reproductions of PRR builders plates. Again, anyone tried these? Inquiring minds want to know. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Disconcerting News Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 11:38:32 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 881 On 4/1/98 11:28 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr. (harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: >If this is valid and upheld, how can Bowser and everyone else manufacturing >models of PRR engines and equipment continue to use the keystone emblem or >the >Pennsylvania decals, and how can the paint manufacturers continue to make >"Brunswick Green" (aka DGLE)? Don't know. Like I said, I have an attorney calling the author of the letter. Hopefully we'll all know more by day's end. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SPF Database Now Online Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 11:53:18 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1638 The SPF Database is now online. See http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html This link will not be placed on "Keystone Crossings". I ask also that no other sites link to it. Though there is no way to easily enforce this, I want this to be a private resource for "PRR-Talk" subscribers. Go to the site and bookmark it. Tonight I will add the URL to the footer that appears on all "PRR-Talk" messages. I want to express that participation is completely voluntary. There is no interaction between the listserv subscriber lists and the SPF database. You will not appear in this database unless you add yourself! When you add yourself, you will be asked for a user name and password. You can make up whatever you want. You will need these to edit your personal record at a later date. The system will e-mail your user name and password back to you as a permanent record. If you opt to enter yourself, all fields within the record are also voluntary (except last name, e-mail address, access name, and access password). The only record currently in the database is my own, so you can search for "last name starts with 'b'" if you want to see a quick demo. Enjoy! (Electric Locomotives are next!) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:37:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] A discussion w/ mr. english of bowser Content-Length: 676 I talked to Mr English of Bowse about aqspects of the T-1. For those who want a non articulated frame, they will issue is sometime before the last judgement (he said don't hold your breath waiting). They are also considered using can motors if they can figure how to create a bracket to mount the motors in th casting...again sometime befor the last judgement. Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:47:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Disconcerting News Content-Length: 334 I suppose that the State of Pennslyvania has received a cease and desist from calling itself the Keystone State! Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:01:06 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] MORE Disconcerting News Content-Length: 3214 Hi all, >In message <199804011122.FAA20493@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu> Jerry writes: >> I just received a three page letter from Douglas, Madison, & Weibly, a >> law firm out of Norfolk, Virginia, acting on behalf of an unstated >> "Client." >> > "cease and desist" the >> following, with regards to "the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, hereafter >> referred to as 'the Corporation'"... >> >> 1. the continued use of the Corporation's 'Keystone' logo, in any form, >> size, or variation, for any purpose whatsoever (e.g. "Keystone >> Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); > > > Don asked: >If this is valid and upheld, how can Bowser and everyone else manufacturing >models of PRR engines and equipment continue to use the keystone emblem or >the >Pennsylvania decals, and how can the paint manufacturers continue to make >"Brunswick Green" (aka DGLE)? Well, I'm afraid that companies can and will do almost anything to protect trademarks. Approximately 10 years ago, one of the major class one railroads threatened the decal and t-shirt manufacturers with trademark infringement. They backed off because of the terrible PR, but the law is on their side. If the rights to the "keystone" are owned, there is no difference between copying that, and MacDonalds or Xerox corporate logos. I'm afraid the law is quite clear and we are s--t out of luck. How do I know this? Well, I've been in meetings with the University Counsel all morning as they recieved a letter very similar to Jerry's. Their opinion? I don't have a legal leg to stand on - the University has asked me to remove all potentially infringing information and images from their computers immediately as they are unwilling to fight what they view as a losing battle for non-University purposes. BTW, since "Brunswick Green" was not trademarked, it can be used freely. It is also doubtful if DGLE was ever trademarked. Bowser may have to resort to selling locomotives and decals without keystones (to be added by you?), or to paying a royalty for the use of a trademarked image in their kits...Glad that T-1 I ordered is in the mail NOW! Oh Unhappy Day! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:11:34 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] flaming the PRRT&HS Web Content-Length: 2202 >On 4/1/98 11:05 AM, Huber25 (Huber25@aol.com) wrote: > >>Does anyone know what's happening with the PRRT&HS web pages? They haven't >>been updated since 9/27/97. I've e-mailed them with no response to when other >>than soon. Uh, I hate to burst your buble, but that mod date is 9/27/96--THATS NINETY SIX folks, and that is flat out PATHETIC, and EMBARRASING, and... As I recall, we celebrated the one year aniversary of said site LAST September, right here on PRR-talk! Who's betting on 2 years without a mod? Of course given the latest news from our lawyers... You would think that MAYBE we could at least have the schedule for the upcoming convention posted on the site? It would take any decent web author about 10 minutes to do well, and maybe an hour to make it spectacular. However, offers of help for the PRRT&HS web page have seemingly fallen on deaf ears even after a request for help was published in the Keystone! Go figure... Enough flames - maybe we can get something moving at the convention to fix the problem. I'll volunteer in person this time, and maybe we'll get some motion. Happy rails Bruce PRRT&HS member Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Mergers Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 13:21:32 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 922 On 4/1/98 11:31 AM, s.a. mccall (hosam@gc.net) wrote: > Does anyone know what year the Norfolk Southern corporation moved from >Roanoake, va. to Norfolk, Va. Or was it the other way around??? Didn't >they get a split with CSX of the Conrail system? Who got what??? Hmmm. I hadn't made the connection between Norfolk Southern being in Norfolk and that also being the source of my letter. Interesting. In very simple terms, the NS got most of what was the original PRR; CSX got most of what had been the NYC. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:36:19 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRR catenary was (New HO items...) Content-Length: 2702 George asked: >I had questions about two new items in recent MR's. May issue has an ad >for PRR cantenary poles - anyone know more on this product? Also a few >issues back was a mention of Ho and O reproductions of PRR builders >plates. Again, anyone tried these? Inquiring minds want to know. > Hi George, Two sources of PRR catenary: Friedlein's Rail Replicas P.O. Box 262 Medford, OR 97501 MODEL MEMORIES PO Box 692, Bethel CT 06801 (203)798-0544 http://www.info-4u.com/modelmemories/mproduct.htm modelmemor@aol.com Friedlein's used to be based in PA but moved out to Oregon recently. I believ that they are the ones advertising. Their catenary consists of single track I beam vertical support, with an I-beam horizontal and an angled brace. These may be made into double track versions by joining two. Construction is brass and they offer directions for hanging complete catenary. Model Memories has a much more complete line of PRR catenary, as well as other railroads such as New Haven. For PRR they offer two track bridges and 3 or 4 track bridges of a design similar to Friedleins. You can get Model Memories catenary as kits however. In addition, they offer pull off poles, high tension towers to add to the catenary, and premade catenary spans. I have just recieved some premade spans and 2 and 3/4 track kits, as well as high tension tower add-on kits. WOW!!! They are fantastic and will take a central place in my PRRMO modules. The PRR information is not yet on their web page, but they have detailed mailings and I found the folks there very easy to work with. Happy (electric) rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] MORE Disconcerting News Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:22:05 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1509 On 1 Apr, "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > >If this is valid and upheld, how can Bowser and everyone else manufacturing > >models of PRR engines and equipment continue to use the keystone emblem or > >the > >Pennsylvania decals, and how can the paint manufacturers continue to make > >"Brunswick Green" (aka DGLE)? > > Well, I'm afraid that companies can and will do almost anything to protect > trademarks. Approximately 10 years ago, one of the major class one > railroads threatened the decal and t-shirt manufacturers with trademark > infringement. CSX, right? > If the rights to the "keystone" are owned, there is no > difference between copying that, and MacDonalds or Xerox corporate logos. This was the point of the earlier lawsuit; this guy incorporated himself as the Pennsylvania Railroad Company and claimed the Pennsy logos as his. I believe that American Premier Underwriters (the rump PC) still owns the rights to the logos, but doesn't care much that it does. Isn't that how it came out? Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:43:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Disconcerting News Content-Length: 942 In a message dated 98-04-01 10:58:58 EST, Don Harper writes: :<< If this is valid and upheld, how can Bowser and everyone else manufacturing models of PRR engines and equipment continue to use the keystone emblem or the Pennsylvania decals, and how can the paint manufacturers continue to make "Brunswick Green" (aka DGLE)? >> CSX tried this years ago, but apparently saw the light and realized the ill will created among modelers who were best friends of the railroad (I guess, don't know the real facts). Problem is we are not dealing here with an ongoing entity of the size of CSX, from what I surmise. UPS may still be enforcing their ban on use of their name for commercial modeling . Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] flaming the PRRT&HS Web Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 14:59:21 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1436 On 4/1/98 2:11 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >You would think that MAYBE we could at least have the schedule for the >upcoming convention posted on the site? It would take any decent web >author about 10 minutes to do well, and maybe an hour to make it >spectacular. However, offers of help for the PRRT&HS web page have >seemingly fallen on deaf ears even after a request for help was published >in the Keystone! Go figure... They don't even have the index for "The Keystone" up to date. For that, you need to visit my "Keystone Crossings" or Bruce Smith's page. > >Enough flames - maybe we can get something moving at the convention to fix >the problem. I'll volunteer in person this time, and maybe we'll get some >motion. Others have expressed their opinion in the past that the "management" of the PRRT&HS is older, largely computer illiterate (with Orwellian fobias), and not willing to turn over control of the site to those of us who are technically qualified. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:16:48 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Officers of the Corporation? Content-Length: 3417 Is the implication of all this that any one who has a keystone on their homepage in deep trouble? one would suspect that the PRR corporation would hae a list of officers and that the lawyers would have to supply it. In any case, remember that the PRR was swallowed up by PennCentral so that they still control all the right of ways. One wonders why this bunch of PRR people did not go after Amtrack for that PRR GG-! it ran years ago? Does this mean that the Penn State Railroad Museum has to eliminate their keystone? What has the Tech society to say oin this matter? > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:11:34 -0600 > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Subject: [PRR] flaming the PRRT&HS Web > >On 4/1/98 11:05 AM, Huber25 (Huber25@aol.com) wrote: > > > >>Does anyone know what's happening with the PRRT&HS web pages? They haven't > >>been updated since 9/27/97. I've e-mailed them with no response to when other > >>than soon. > > Uh, I hate to burst your buble, but that mod date is 9/27/96--THATS NINETY > SIX folks, and that is flat out PATHETIC, and EMBARRASING, and... > > As I recall, we celebrated the one year aniversary of said site LAST > September, right here on PRR-talk! Who's betting on 2 years without a mod? > Of course given the latest news from our lawyers... > > You would think that MAYBE we could at least have the schedule for the > upcoming convention posted on the site? It would take any decent web > author about 10 minutes to do well, and maybe an hour to make it > spectacular. However, offers of help for the PRRT&HS web page have > seemingly fallen on deaf ears even after a request for help was published > in the Keystone! Go figure... > > Enough flames - maybe we can get something moving at the convention to fix > the problem. I'll volunteer in person this time, and maybe we'll get some > motion. > > Happy rails > Bruce > PRRT&HS member > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and > Director, Nucleic Acid Services > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > ******************************************************************************** > Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Fess Up Time! Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 15:25:40 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1614 Ahem, yes, as some of you have figured out, the "letter" I received was indeed an April Fool's joke. Hope nobody is [too] pissed, though the info did make it through some other lists and, apparently a few newsgroups. Whoops! I'd like to thank co-conspirators Bruce Smith and Mark Bej...as well as those who learned along the day and kept silent. Thanks, it's been fun. At present there are over 220 "PRR-Talk" subscribers. Last April 1 there were only around 70. The "veterans" will remember that last year I announced -- in order to consolidate operations and thereby provide better service and increase profits -- I was merging my web site with the Internet's largest New York Central site. Boy did that one raise a stink! Like the Penn Central, my server followed suit with a hard drive crash and burn two months later! My backup failed and all data and the entire subscriber list was lost. We've rebounded and beyond during the last 12 months and -- getting sentimental -- its great having you all here. (BTW: A tape backup now runs nightly at 2 a.m. with rotating tapes and offsite storage!) Hope you enjoyed today's discussion...now, back to flaming the PRRT&HS web site! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 15:35:11 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: [PRR] MORE Disconcerting News Content-Length: 1015 At 12:01 PM 4/1/98 -0600, "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." >BTW, since "Brunswick Green" was not trademarked, it can be used freely. >It is also doubtful if DGLE was ever trademarked. Bowser may have to >resort to selling locomotives and decals without keystones (to be added by >you?), or to paying a royalty for the use of a trademarked image in their >kits...Glad that T-1 I ordered is in the mail NOW! Greetings, Having been a proponnent of "Brunswick Green", I am now receiving a helping hand from the legal side. Never again disparage the use of "Brunswick Green" or you might get a letter from Norfolk or close to Norfolk!! This is to all those DGLE crusaders who may be treading on dangerous ground. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 12:58:50 -0800 From: Sharon Edwards Subject: Re: [PRR] Disconcerting News Content-Length: 4263 To All, This is not the first time that this has surfaced in model railroading, in fact it is not the first time concerning the PRR. One occurance as I remember was an effort by I beleive the C&O concerning the use of the Chessie symbol which as I remember was a trade mark. The C&O tried to collect royalties for the use of the trade mark and finally gave up after alot of negitive PR. I got the impression that they might have thought that there was more money to be had than was really available in the model industry. When I was involved in the model industry, the PRR trade marks issue raised its ugly head. I beleive that someone had regestered the PRR names and trade marks and were trying to collect money for the use of them. Seems like this went on about 5 to 7 years ago. How any one could register symbols from an no longer existing railroad that didnot register them itself does not make sense to me. I would bet that this is the same indivudual as before. The wise thing to do would be to send copies of the letter to the major model manufacturers such as Walthers, Micro Trains, Bachman, Atlas, and MRIA(model rr indust. assoc.). someone in the industry no doubt will have info on what happened before and what was done. Getting major players in the industry involved should help. On a side note, I have seen where an individual was able to get truck manufacturers to license their trade marks only to him for toys. He handles all the royalty collection for the current manufacturers such as Peterbilt, Kenworth, etc., for any one that makes a toy with a trademark on it. Doug Edwards Jerry wrote: > > I just received a three page letter from Douglas, Madison, & Weibly, a > law firm out of Norfolk, Virginia, acting on behalf of an unstated > "Client." > > I'll scan in the letter tonight so everyone can see it, but the gist is > this: I am being asked, rather bluntly, to "cease and desist" the > following, with regards to "the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, hereafter > referred to as 'the Corporation'"... > > 1. the continued use of the Corporation's 'Keystone' logo, in any form, > size, or variation, for any purpose whatsoever (e.g. "Keystone > Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); > > 2. any other logos attributable to said Corporation, including but not > limited to Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, 5 gold pinstripe, circle > keystone, shadow keystone, lettering 'PENNSYLVANIA' in Futura or Craw > Clarendon > fonts, any images of Corporation including but not limited to Grif Teller > paintings not in the public domain or privately held, ... (e.g. "Keystone > Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); > > 3. the continued electronic distribution of any documents published by > the Corproation, by CD-ROM, Internet, or other means (e.g. "Keystone > Crossings", http://prr.dsop.com); > > 4. the continued electronic distribution via Internet mailing list (e.g. > "PRR-Talk") the implication of being an official source of information > regarding the Corporation > > The letter continues, "full compliance is expected by April 15, 1998 to > avert legal action on the part of the Client. This request is being > enacted to protect the legal trademarks and copyrights of the Corporation > as they pertain to reutilization in the coming months." > > Did anyone else get one of these? > > Sounds like we better distribute and download while we can. Perhaps a > fire sale on "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" CD-ROMs? > > BTW: I'm having my attorney look into it. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mergers Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:00:48 -0500 Content-Length: 1087 This has a tingle of " Pennsylvania Southern" ? With a Keystone ? ---------- > From: s.a. mccall > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Mergers > Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 10:31 AM > > > Greetings, > > Does anyone know what year the Norfolk Southern corporation moved from > Roanoake, va. to Norfolk, Va. Or was it the other way around??? Didn't > they get a split with CSX of the Conrail system? Who got what??? > Sincerely, > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > Franklin, Va. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:56:59 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: [PRR] Re: Disconcerting News Content-Length: 1157 On Wed, 1 Apr 98 06:13:14 -0400 Jerry writes: ^^^^^ > I just received a three page letter from Douglas, Madison, & Weibly, a > law firm out of Norfolk, Virginia, acting on behalf of an unstated > "Client." > [snip...] > The letter continues, "full compliance is expected by April 15, 1998 to > avert legal action on the part of the Client. This request is being > enacted to protect the legal trademarks and copyrights of the Corporation > as they pertain to reutilization in the coming months." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Before this gets out of hand, I think we should all ask Jerry if he is playing some cruel April Fool's joke on us? -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Technology Service Corp. Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:01:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Disconcerting News Content-Length: 711 Jerry: Have your attorney contact Jim Lynch Sec. Treas. PRRT&HS and an attorney about the case involving that "gentleman" from Indiana and PENNCORP. I do believe that the courts ruled this is all in the public domain because PENN CORP failed to protect the copyright, trademark etc. and because the PRR freely allowed the use by modlers. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:07:36 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Re: Cabins in Passenger Service Content-Length: 2028 Hi Jerry, and SPFs, >I believe there was an issue of "The Keystone" in 1996 that featured >Cabins in Passenger Service. Can someone please look and see if there is >a roster? If so, could someone either 1) key in the info for me; 2) >photocopy it and mail it to me; or 3) photocopy and FAX it to me...so I >can add this info to the database. The issue in question is: Summer 1996, Volume 29, Number 2 It is at home, but as I recall, not only was there a roster of these cabins, but there were charts indicating the headend equipment of a number of trains, as well as complete painting diagrams. A partial Keystone index (back to Spring 1996) is available at my web site, and I have added a new feature on Bridges of the PRR, featuring, for now, very old photos of Rockville, Martic Forge and Safe Harbor. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:40:33 -0500 From: Conan Evans Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg track Content-Length: 987 Jerry and Friends, With reguards to the thread about the CV bridge and assosiated bridges across the Susquehanna.... The NCRy r-o-w continued northward on the west side of the river to Marysville, where it crossed to the east and continued northward, via a wooden and partially covered bridge. The abutments to this NCRy bridge are still visible from Rt 15. What is the history behind the scaled Statue of Liberty model that is out in the middle of the river. When, who and how did it get out there? In seeing where it resides, I can't help but wonder the trials it faces every time the river rises. Conan Evans ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:50:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on PRR-talk and being an SPF was Re: Content-Length: 1353 In a message dated 98-04-01 23:55:32 EST, Tom V writes: << It is up to us modelers to preserve the memory, history and lore of the Standard Railroad of the World. It's hard to railfan a road that's been gone organizationaloly for 30 years and, at least in thjis corner of the Southwest Region, vanished quite literally as Conrail abandoned most of the Pennsy trackage in Southwest Ohio for NYC rouitngs. >> Watching the UP absorb the C&NW locally is a lesson as now just about everybody's favorite line is a fallen flag, with only four major carriers left. At Butler Yard west of Milwaukee , they put a big UP logo up on the yardoffice before the ink was barely dry on the merger documents. This month they just tore the whole building down. So much for the next generation of Northwestern fans trying to find some history. I wonder 30 years from now how much SP, SF, or BN (itself a merger) equipment will be sold. Just off-topic ruminations. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:06:23 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS web site suggestions Content-Length: 2931 To: Mr. George Burbage, PRRT&HS Webmaster Dear Mr. Burbage, I am writing to you to offer my services to assist with the PRRT&HS web pages in whatever manner you might find appropriate. As I recall, a request for such assistance was published in a recent issue of the Keystone. In addition, the PRRT&HS web pages have been a subject of recent discussions on the PRR-Talk list run by Jerry Britton. We all feel that these pages have a tremendous potential, however, they have not been updated in over a year, and unless I am mistaken, perhaps not since they were posted in 1996. I, and several others on the PRR-talk list would like to offer the following suggestions for the PRRT&HS pages: 1) A searchable index of the Keystone, including availability and ordering information 2) Information on the Archives, updated frequently as new material is cataloged. This may or may not need to be searchable, but would not be the actual information in the archives, but ratehr a reference as to where to look, whom to ask, etc 3) An updated page of relevant private and commercial PRR related links 4) A modification date on every page consisting of Mo/Da/Yr 5) A timetable of upcoming events. The time and location of the annual meeting as well as chapter meetings should be posted. The entire program of the annual meeting, as well as perhaps a means of registration should be included. I know of several other very competent web authors who would be willing to help implement these ideas. Please let me know how I or they may be of service to the PRRT&HS in this matter, and if you consider it appropriate, I will also gladly re-post your comments to the PRR-talk list. Most Sincerely Yours Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg track Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 10:15:43 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2166 On 4/2/98 10:40 AM, Conan Evans (winky@umd5.umd.edu) wrote: >The abutments to this NCRy bridge are still visible from Rt 15. What is the >history behind the scaled Statue of Liberty model that is out in the >middle of the >river. When, who and how did it get out there? The history of the "Harrisburg Statue of Liberty" goes back about 10-12 years. One night, as a joke, some guys went out in a jon boat and installed a statue of liberty that was crafted out of -- of all things -- venetian blinds! They didn't expect it to last long, but it did...for years! It gradually fell apart and everyone wanted to know when it would be fixed! They actually ran a fund raiser in the area for several years and managed -- via the fundraiser and gifts of equipment use, etc. -- to create a permanent statue. They received permission from the railroad (CR) that owns the rights to the abandoned r-o-w and even improved the top surface to which it is attached. It is visible from both sides of the river, and people often stop on the southbound side of 22/322 below Dauphin (just after the RR underpass) to take photos. The "new" statue has been in place for about two years, if I recall. > >In seeing where it resides, I can't help but wonder the trials it faces >every time >the river rises. That portion of the river rarely gets high enough to cover the trestles. I'd bet not since the 1972 flood of Hurricane Agnes. There is more flooding in Harrisburg because of the dam. The area above Rockville is wide and flat...lots of room for the water to spread out rather than rise. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Penn Central startup date (was: Law Letter on the PRR..) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:13:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 889 SUVCW ORR wrote: > In a message dated 98-04-01 20:46:50 EST, bubbles@visi.net writes: > << Also this is a reminder (if i'm right) that it was on this day that > Penn Central started....4-1-68 now that WAS a April Fool. >> > Sorry, but you are off by two months. 2-1-68 What nobody mentioned -- not even on the CR list -- was that yesterday was the 22nd anniversary of the startup of Conrail. It's also St. Crispin's Day, if I recall the _Trains_ editorial from way back then. Wow, has it been *that* long? Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 9:12:06 -0600 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS Web Site -Reply Content-Length: 1872 Date: 04/02/1998 03:09 pm (Thursday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS Web Site -Reply Brad makes a good point. Th PRRT&HS convention and business meeting is a good venue to address the sorry state of their Web site. Due to distance, or other constraints, not all PRRT&HS members who have a concern about this issue will be able to attend the meeting. I would like to suggest that someone on the prr-talk list who is knowledgeable about the issue and will be attending the meeting volunteer to collect proxys from those of use who will not be attending. A fist full of proxys will add some weight to whoever will champion the cause at the meeting. I, for one, would be happy to send a proxy for my vote to someone who will represent me on this issue. Any takers? Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 04/01/98 07:08pm >>> >Interesting to note how members of the PRR-Talk group get hot about the >PRRT&HS web site inactivity. Well yes, something does need to done. >To change the PRRT&HS's view of the web page, >MEMBERS must seek change and vote on who runs the organization. >The national convention is in several weeks in Lancaster, those who >attend ought to address this issue to the chosen. >There is no better venue to discuss this problem. I >intend to ask about the web page at the business meeting and will have fired >off a letter in advance. So use the opportunity wisely. > >Brad Bower > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS web site suggestions Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 10:51:29 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1893 On 4/2/98 11:06 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > >1) A searchable index of the Keystone, including availability and ordering >information > >2) Information on the Archives, updated frequently as new material is >cataloged. This may or may not need to be searchable, but would not be the >actual information in the archives, but ratehr a reference as to where to >look, whom to ask, etc My server at "Keystone Crossings" now serves databases. I would be willing to host the society's archive database at no cost to the society if someone else performs the data entry. The data entry task involves placing "tabs" between fields and "carriage returns" at the ends of records. The compiler could easily perform their work in any database and export the results in this format. George: Bruce has seen my work. Take a look at http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html. I have online searchable databases of roster of Cabin Cars, Diesel Locomotives, Electric Locomotives, and past posts to the "PRR-Talk" list. In the future I will be adding Passenger Equipment and Steam Locomotive rosters, as well as PRR reciples and a magazine bibliography. There is no end to the possibilities, just a need for someone with the information at hand to key it into electronic form so I can import it. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR in next MR Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 11:17:31 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1759 I didn't get it yet, but I was just on MR's web site and saw that the new issue, May, includes: Altoona to Pittsburgh over Horse Shoe Curve: Probably the most famous railroad landmark in North America lies in the hills above Altoona, Pa. It's the Pennsylvania RR's Horse Shoe Curve (now Conrail's) and Doug Taylor's faithful depiction of it forms the heart of his HO Pennsylvana RR. Also featured is the 3-foot gauge East Broad Top. Readers attending the National Model Railroad Association's 1998 national convention will be able to visit this John Armstrong-designed layout in person. I've always been a fan of Tony Koester's layout. It'll be featured again in the June issue: Cover story We get our first look at his new Coal Fork Extension as popular MR columnist and author Tony Koester kicks off a new series on how he planned and built this 13 x 19-foot shelf-style addition to his HO layout. The reader could build the Coal Fork as an addition to his own railroad or as a stand-alone layout in its own right, one that takes advantage of the space above bookshelves and furniture. Tony provides lots of beautiful color photos to get us in the layout-building mood. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Spruce Creek bridge article Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 11:20:02 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1407 This was just posted on the list of the Penn State Model RR Club: ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 04/02 11:25 AM Received: 04/02 11:18 AM From: Balogh, John, JDB@PSU.EDU Reply-To: L-PSMRRC - Penn State Model Railroad Club, L-PSMRRC@lists.psu.edu Balogh, John, JDB@PSU.EDU To: L-PSMRRC@lists.psu.edu FYI: Coming in April NMRA Bulletin: Page 46 Spruce Creek Learn how to build one of the most unique structures on the railroad - the skewed-arch stone bridge. Bob Beecher has come up with a technique that makes it easy, and shares it here. Although written about an N-scale project, the technique can be applied to any scale. All dimensions are given in scale feet, so large-scaler's need fear not. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:34:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg area Content-Length: 977 In response to the Statue of Liberty on NCR pier in north of Harrisburg, I think it has been there for over a year, maybe two. Thanks to everyone that answered my Harrisburg questions, but I would like to ask several more. The track on east bank that goes between Rockville bridge and heads north to old Northern central bridge (just that segment) didn't exsist until present day Rockville was built? I got confused when it was said PC built wye off of CV bridge. They did this on west end? One last question, what kind of damage did Shock Mill bridge have from flood? Thanks again to all for help on this. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:39:15 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Fess Up Time! Content-Length: 724 SUVCW ORR wrote: > > I > << By the way what the heck does SPF stand for >> > > Slobbering Pennsy Fanatic > > It started long ago as a slam on Pennsy fans. the SPFs decided to wear it as > a "Red Badge of Courage" and frequently and endearingly refer to themselves > as SPFs. > Or, some say it means "Slobbering Pennsy Freak." :-) ? Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:41:07 -0600 (CST) From: dsdawdy@mcs.com (Daniel S. Dawdy) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Web Site Suggestions Content-Length: 1210 Hi: >3) E-Commerce. Yes, this requires some setup. For those of us who are >Internet-savvy (all of us reading this), when we want something, "we want >it now". I don't want to get into the middle of this as it's really none of my business, however, as the provider and host for the site I will say that we do offer a secure server for this. We also offer the normal mail forwarding and POP mail. I have also forwarded your Email on to George as I don't think the AOL address is good anymore. Although I don't feel I can discuss the site itself, I would be happy to discuss the features we can help provide. Regards, Daniel Dawdy - Ribbon Rail Productions - World Wide Web Publishing 319 N. Naperville Road, Suite 348 Bolingbrook, IL 60490 Voice 630.969.7837 - Data 630.960.3046 - dsdawdy@mcs.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:45:37 -0600 (CST) From: dsdawdy@mcs.com (Daniel S. Dawdy) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS web site suggestions Content-Length: 1037 >There is no end to the possibilities, just a need for someone with the >information at hand to key it into electronic form so I can import it. One thing to remember is, how much information do you want to give away? Between a full website and this group, many will be able to get their questions answered without needing to join. There is always that balance of what the official web site should have... just enough to peak interest without giving away the store. Dan - Ribbon Rail Productions - World Wide Web Publishing 319 N. Naperville Road, Suite 348 Bolingbrook, IL 60490 Voice 630.969.7837 - Data 630.960.3046 - dsdawdy@mcs.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: carl.haslett@lmco.com Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 12:51:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in next MR Content-Length: 1351 Just received my MR last night. The Altoona to Pittsburgh over Horse Shoe Curve layout and article are great. As a boy, I saw many a Disney movie in that Capitol Theater that is prominently featured in the downtown section of the layout. And I recognized the Penn-Alto Hotel before I got to the pix with the roof sign! Excellent modeling work by Doug Taylor. And kudos to John Armstrong also for the design. Its got Altoona more or less at the center, with Tyrone and the "Vail wye", Spruce Creek, EBT narrowgauge interchange at Huntingdon to the east and Horseshoe Curve, Gallitzin, Cresson, and Pittsburg to the west. A unique aspect to me about this design is the multi levels of narrow staging, that still enter/exit from the same area of the layout - as opposed to one level that is twice as wide and may be harder to reach or maintain. Excellent idea - almost like having the staged trains sitting on display shelves when not operating out on the layout! Carl Haslett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:06:37 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg area Content-Length: 1304 On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, STEVEGG1 wrote: > In response to the Statue of Liberty on NCR pier in north of Harrisburg, I > think it has been there for over a year, maybe two. Thanks to everyone that > answered my Harrisburg questions, but I would like to ask several more. The > track on east bank that goes between Rockville bridge and heads north to old > Northern central bridge (just that segment) didn't exsist until present day > Rockville was built? I got confused when it was said PC built wye off of CV > bridge. They did this on west end? One last question, what kind of damage did > Shock Mill bridge have from flood? on the east end of the CV bridge, a leg of track was built connection the bridge to the south, e.g. eastbound line to Royalton and beyond. several spans of the Shocks Mills Bridge were washed away and as I recall from some book put out by state of PA on 1972 flooding were replaced by steel girders -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg area Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 13:27:25 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 3231 On 4/2/98 12:34 PM, STEVEGG1 (STEVEGG1@aol.com) wrote: >In response to the Statue of Liberty on NCR pier in north of Harrisburg, I >think it has been there for over a year, maybe two. Thanks to everyone that >answered my Harrisburg questions, but I would like to ask several more. The >track on east bank that goes between Rockville bridge and heads north to old >Northern central bridge (just that segment) didn't exsist until present day >Rockville was built? That's correct. The NCR came up the west side and crossed at Marysville to a point above Dauphin. The PRR came up the east side and crossed at Rockville below Dauphin. There were about three miles without tracks. When the "joint" bridge was built, the remaining trackage on the east side was built to facilitate the NCRy. >I got confused when it was said PC built wye off of CV >bridge. They did this on west end? Dan (Cupper) must've been "somewhat" mistaken as to why the wye (no pun intended) was put in. I do have early track charts of the east end that do not show the wye, so it indeed could have been added circa 1972. There was -- and is -- a full wye at the east end. At the west end, the tracks went straight across the river and on to Carlisle. The NCRy came up along the west side of the river and had a diamond grade crossing with the CV. This was the site of LEMO tower. The only interface from the bridge to the NCRy line was from the bridge towards the south...a single curved track on a bridge of its own. north, to Enola / || ========================CV=================== harrisburg lemo || / || / || / ||/ south, NCRy to Baltimore Dan said the wye was put in to re-route trains from the Royalton Branch across the CV bridge to reach Enola. Yes, the wye would allow the trains to get from the Royalton Branch onto the CV bridge, but then they'd have to proceed on the CV into Lemoyne and back up several miles into Enola! I doubt they did this...they would have proceeded north on the Royalton Branch, crossed the Rockville Bridge, then come back down the west side. No backing! I believe the wye was added at the east end solely for turning trains. IMHO, sorry Dan. Meanwhile the Atglen & Susquehanna ran parallel to the NCRy, closer to the river, and 30+ feet lower. The CV bridge crosses over the A&S. The A&S and the NCRy met and interlocked about two miles north, just below Enola. >One last question, what kind of damage did >Shock Mill bridge have from flood? During the Agnes 1972 flood, a pier in the center washed away, taking two spans with it. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:31:36 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Fwd: [PRR] Penn Central startup date (was: Law Letter on the Content-Length: 1327

---Ken Reinert wrote: > > SUVCW ORR wrote: > > In a message dated 98-04-01 20:46:50 EST, bubbles@visi.net writes: > > << Also this is a reminder (if i'm right) that it was on this day that > > Penn Central started....4-1-68 now that WAS a April Fool. >> > > Sorry, but you are off by two months. 2-1-68 > > What nobody mentioned -- not even on the CR list -- was that yesterday > was the 22nd anniversary of the startup of Conrail. > > It's also St. Crispin's Day, if I recall the _Trains_ editorial from > way back then. Wow, has it been *that* long? > > Ken

According to the Church of England, St. Crispin's Day is 25th October. See www.ely.anglican.org/~sjk/lit2000/cal/index.htm

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at Yahoo! Mail.
------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in next MR From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 13:25:38 -0500 Content-Length: 779 I didn't get it yet, but I was just on MR's web site and saw that the new issue, May, includes: Altoona to Pittsburgh over Horse Shoe Curve: ======== Did you also notice that Sunshine now has models of X37, X37a, nd X37b box cars!! Now, when will C&BT release their X29b's and d's?? :-)) I may yet have an accurate fleet of PRR transition era freight cars (may all my Athearns RIP). regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR flyovers Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:48:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 1513 PRRMAN wrote: > In a message dated 98-03-22 23:20:51 EST, kreinert@erols.com writes: > << er, lessee, the East River tubes is > New York... and I think I'm forgetting something here... >> > > There was (still is!) a place in the East River tubes where > Tracks 2 and 3 crossed over one another while both were > underground. Not a "flyover" in the purest sense, but it > confirms your statement about unequalled engineering. That's *exactly* the feature I was thinking about -- anybody can punch a few tunnels through the ground :-) but what outfit besides the PRR would go to the trouble of doing something like this in order to get trains to their respective proper places _without a conflict_? (Disregard the present day routing at Harold; the original design served two purposes: move PRR trains into/out of Sunnyside Yard, and move LIRR trains -- running trains over Hell Gate was not a major consideration in the design of the Penn Station complex.) The NYC subway system is the only other rail operation that I can think of offhand that might parallel the PRR as far as the number and scope of engineering marvels. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:22:58 -0500 Content-Length: 780 Please. Let's stop all this nonsense. If you are reading this, what does it matter? If you are visiting this and Mark's site (and Bruce's site, et al), what does it matter? Is a group made up of initials? The only initials that count are PRR and I frankly don't care who provides it. This is the Internet. If they (PRRT&HS) don't want to play, then erase your shortcuts. But stop the blather. Dick Makse ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:43:15 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg area Content-Length: 1006 > Dan said the wye was put in to re-route trains from the Royalton Branch > across the CV bridge to reach Enola. Yes, the wye would allow the trains > to get from the Royalton Branch onto the CV bridge, but then they'd have > to proceed on the CV into Lemoyne and back up several miles into Enola! I > doubt they did this...they would have proceeded north on the Royalton > Branch, crossed the Rockville Bridge, then come back down the west side. > No backing! An old Railpace (i'll get a cite tonight) agrees with Dan; The wye leg at the east end of the CV bridge was added in 1972 after the Shocks Mills Bridge failure -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Apr 98 15:45:33 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] The Marysville Statue of Liberty Content-Length: 622 >One night, as a joke, some guys went out in a jon boat and >installed a statue of liberty that was crafted out of -- of all things -- >venetian blinds! Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we *can* imagine. -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:02:05 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR T&HS annual meeting Content-Length: 522 Dear Jerry, I assume you're going to Lancaster for the meeting. How will we recognize you there? Could you add PRR-Talk under your name on your badge? Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:04:14 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS Web Site -Reply Content-Length: 483 To Whomever, You've got my proxy, even though I'll be at the meeting. Something must be done about the web site. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Cyber chapter (proposed) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:03:38 EST Content-Length: 774 Gents: You'll recall the cyber chapter proposal. There's stuff about it both on Jerry's site and on mine. Do y'all still want to do this?? I want to have some feedback between now and the end of the month (PRRTHS convention), before I make a fool of myself proposing the thing, only to have nothing happen between now and this time NEXT year. Speak up and be prepared to volunteer for tasks. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Law Letter on the PRR... (fwd) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:12:07 EST Content-Length: 899 > Hmmmm i don't know about you folks,but i'm not TOO worried about the letter > Jerry got...rememeber today is 4-1-98... > 4-1-98...get it? Sounds more like Jerry is having some fun.... > > Also this is a reminder (if i'm right) that it was on this day that > Penn Central started....4-1-68 now that WAS a April Fool. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert Hank et al., PC started on _Feb_ first. It's Conrail that started in April 1. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg SoL (Statue of Liberty :-) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:18:44 EST Content-Length: 882 > The history of the "Harrisburg Statue of Liberty" goes back about 10-12 > years. One night, as a joke, some guys went out in a jon boat and > installed a statue of liberty that was crafted out of -- of all things -- > venetian blinds! It appeared in Harrisburg between 1985 and 1987. I was living in Hershey at the time and driving 22-322 and 11-15 to Geisinger Medical Center every week for many months. As I recall much rubbernecking resulted from its initial appearance, as well as several wrecks. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in next MR Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 18:24:30 -0500 Content-Length: 1238 On April 2 1998 Andy wrote >Did you also notice that Sunshine now has models of X37, X37a, nd X37b box >cars!! Now, when will C&BT release their X29b's and d's?? :-)) I may yet >have an accurate fleet of PRR transition era freight cars (may all my Athearns >RIP). Andy and all, I spoke to the people at C&BT Shops this week and he reports that the X29b molds are being fine tuned . The kits should be ready sometime this summer. On the same line the 50 ft.cars that Branchline Trains have been talking about for the past year have had test shots done and we could have them in the May-June time frame.This car will be a dead ringer for the X44a cars. You are right Andy we may soon have a correct fleet of house cars to ride behind all those great engines that have come out in the past few years. Travel by Rail Neil Campbell ncamp@iname.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Meeting Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 18:38:14 -0500 Content-Length: 1975 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD5E66.7F1B1B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry and group, After reading the scheudel for the Lancaster meeting it looks as if = there is time on Friday afternoon when any Talk group members could get = together informally so we could do a face to face meet. We could discuss = cyber chapter and PRRMO topics.=20 Any Takers Neil Campbell ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD5E66.7F1B1B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry and group,
 
    After reading the = scheudel=20 for the Lancaster meeting it looks as if there is time on Friday = afternoon when=20 any Talk group members could get together informally so we could do a = face to=20 face meet. We could discuss cyber chapter  and PRRMO topics. =
 
    Any = Takers
Neil = Campbell
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD5E66.7F1B1B80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:05:08 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Clearances and Hudson tunnels Content-Length: 2496 Hi gang... All this talk about the tunnels reminded me of something my dad told me this week. This might shed some light on clearances. As some of you know, Amtrak is or has placed an order with Bombadier for the new High Speed NEC cars for service between Boston and Washington. Since dad works the former PRR NEC section he knows about this. Dad was telling me this to show me how DUMB Amtrak can be. He said the new cars can only use the South tunnel(east bound) into and out of New York as the North tunnel (west bound) clearances are too tight... Theres not a problem with the height...its the width.... The tunnels have knee walls and the knee walls in the North tunnel are tighter than the South tunnel... Apparently Amtrak placed their order before even checking the clearances. This will severely place restictions on their operations and such... ( And this is for the next generation that was supposed to replace conventional trains?) they can't all run through the South tunnel...sheesh... One question i have is this... I thought the two tunnels were identical...i guess not...unless the were modified later... Dad said the knee wall is also a walkway for the tunnel..(makes sense since when they were built there was third rail at track level then and they probably wanted a way for employees to keep from touching it by accident in the dark) (maybe a late design change then) Does anyone know why there is a difference between the two? Dad doubts Amtrak will modify the North tunnel....He said Amtrak will probably operate with the problem...since the order has started and it would be costly to scrap anything already started and/or rebuild cars. Also these same cars were to be able to tilt 8 degrees...for curves... guess what...they will only tilt 4 degrees...this will cut down on there speed...so they already have two things against them already and they are'nt even near being in service yet.... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber chapter (proposed) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:19:56 -0500 Content-Length: 2043 Mark, I personally think that the cyber chapter is a good idea who's time has come.......for those members that are way out in the country, and can not get to meetings. But I also think that there should be dues.......We should all pay towards getting the archives logged and usable. And I would hate to think what would happen if the wrong person get there fingers on that material..........It needs professional handling, and after seeing the amount of work ahead !!!! it will be some time before we see some of that material. Mark, I'll assist you in any way that I can. Bill Knepper Northern Central Chapter Member PRRT&HS York County Rail/Trail Authority New Freedom Station Project ---------- > From: Mark D Bej > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Cyber chapter (proposed) > Date: Thursday, April 02, 1998 5:03 PM > > > Gents: > > You'll recall the cyber chapter proposal. There's stuff about it both > on Jerry's site and on mine. > > Do y'all still want to do this?? I want to have some feedback between > now and the end of the month (PRRTHS convention), before I make a fool > of myself proposing the thing, only to have nothing happen between now > and this time NEXT year. > > Speak up and be prepared to volunteer for tasks. > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:52:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS web site suggestions Content-Length: 1473 In a message dated 4/2/98 1:53:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, dsdawdy@mcs.com writes: << One thing to remember is, how much information do you want to give away? Between a full website and this group, many will be able to get their questions answered without needing to join. There is always that balance of what the official web site should have... just enough to peak interest without giving away the store. >> the problem is that too many people felt this ingormation was too dear that a lott of people have forgotten it is important.If serious modelers have to labor for years to discern that A. the N6b was the most common cabin car during the late 1950s or B.that the amount of tracks west of Pittsburgh was nearly equal to that east of Pittsburgh, one doesn't have to think long about what will happen -- AND HAS happened --a lot fewer people will choose to model the Pennsy. The value of a modeler's association is not how many secrets can be squirreled away but in the joy and comraderie of its members as they learn more about it, especiallu a fallen flag like the Pennsy. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] Doug Taylor's PRR/EBT Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:52:20 -0600 Content-Length: 655 There has been some mention of the MR May issue article on Doug Taylor's layout. He seems to have flooded the market; he also has a good article in the May Railmodel Journal which concentrates more on the EBT part of it. There are a good number of decent photos and a trackplan. Steve Hoxie ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Logo From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 00:52:47 EST Content-Length: 3540 I was suckered enough yesterday to start researching the law firm et c. because my own company logo is an unabashed knockoff of the PRR logo. [I could just see the lady who does our copyright work licking her lips in anticipation of her fees] The logo, type faces and formating I use on my business cards and stationary is very close to some of the some of those the PRR used historically. I had a copyright lawyer make sure we weren't stepping on anybody's toes. When my assistant saw the first couple messages she showed them to me. I had her check Martindale's [for those of you not familiar with it, Martindale and Hubble is the 'super Yellow Pages' of the legal profession] for the firm or any of its principles. She also called the Norfolk Bar Association. We came up with close to zip. I emailed our copyright lawyer to warn her, sent the messages, and 10 minutes later the phone rang... "Michael, what's today's date?" She had caught the error in the name of the insurance company [i missed it] and reminded me that I should have seen through it right away because they were trying to enforce a copyright on a straight line! Gentlemen, you had me going. Next year keep looking over your shoulders. There are a couple of misconceptions I noticed in the discussion which I want to comment on. I'm speaking first hand on this since we worked with PC on asset disposition for seven years starting in 1974. 1. Conrail is not the successor in due course to the Pennsylvania Railroad. They did not purchase or otherwise acquire the business of the Penn Central Corporation et alia. They acquired some of the physical assets [track, power, cars, et c] and the operating rights. This is the reason that CR went into a painting frenzy putting a little CR on everything. PC continued its corporate existance. The surviving corporation became American Premier Underwriters 2. PC's historic corporate records were in a total shambles [remember they even auctioned some of them off to raise cash]. As examples they were paying property taxes on Exchange Place as a funtional terminal as late as 1980 and actually tried to sell both the Long Bridge in DC and some Central Vermont right-of-way on quit claims based on not knowing they didn't own it. That being the case it is entirely possible that sombody did acquire the rights and could legitimately create such a problem. What I believe was actually decided some years ago was that 1. the gentleman peddling the logo did not hold the rights he was trying to peddle; and 2, that APU, as the corporate sucessor to PC PRR et c., did not have the standing to enforce the rights to the logo since the particular forms in question were public domain. Rgds MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:32:10 EST Subject: [PRR] Timonium Show, April 4&5 Content-Length: 529 Hi Gang, Anyone plan on attending the Timonium Show? I spent 2 days there in the fall and still didn't get to see it all. Maybe find a DGLE E7B, I'll be lookin'. George ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium Show, April 4&5 Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:05:57 -0500 Content-Length: 1308 Yes Sir, I'll be working a stand at the show with a friend of mine........Look for the table selling "Green " Northern Central Railroad hats..........Proceeds to the New Freedom Station Fund......... See Ya There.... Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Eichhorn > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Timonium Show, April 4&5 > Date: Friday, April 03, 1998 2:32 AM > > Hi Gang, > Anyone plan on attending the Timonium Show? > I spent 2 days there in the fall and still didn't get > to see it all. Maybe find a DGLE E7B, I'll be lookin'. > > George > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Train engines picture Date: Fri, 3 Apr 98 06:26:38 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1503 Can you help ID a photo? The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/question/TRAINS2.JPG Mike Bezilla: Could this be Bellefonte Central? Let me know, thanks. ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- ...I have an old postcard photo I found among photos of my late grandfather, of two train engines pulled beside each other, frontal view, the train #'s are 4068 and 1664, there is about 25 individuals posing with these trains for the picture. I assume it was taken somewhere in central Pa as my grandfather's ancestors came from Mckean Co, Lycoming Co. Centre Co, Northumberland Co. and Bradford Co. Pa. I am doing our family ancestry and have not found anyone on my grandfather's side of the family associated with railroads. Thought you may be able to help me ID the engines, the RR, the place, date - any info would be appreciated... ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:31:49 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: [PRR] Train engines picture Content-Length: 1074 >Can you help ID a photo? > >The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/question/TRAINS2.JPG > >Mike Bezilla: Could this be Bellefonte Central? >train #'s are 4068 and 1664 I assume it was taken somewhere in >central Pa as >my >grandfather's ancestors came from Mckean Co, Lycoming Co. Centre Co, >Northumberland Co. and Bradford Co. Pa. Not BFC, even without looking at the photo. BFC steam engines never went higher than 2 digits. The high numbers indicate, I suspect, a big road--PRR, the water level route, BR&P, DL&W, Erie something like that. Now, are these engines Belpaire or radial stay? I can't tell for sure, tho 4068 might be Belpaire. And how about that water tower? Is that a clue? Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:36:31 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR T&HS annual meeting Content-Length: 1590 >Dear Jerry, > > I assume you're going to Lancaster for the meeting. How will we >recognize you there? Could you add PRR-Talk under your name on your >badge? > > Jim I am looking at how to print small stickers that say PRRMO or PRR-Talk, which could then be stuck on name badges, to help us identify each other at the meeting. This is done all the time at the NMRA meetings Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: Re: [PRR] Law Letter on the PRR... Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:36:41 -0500 Content-Length: 646 Wasn't it Conrail that had April 1 (4/1/76) birthday? Steve Sejda ---------- > << Also this is a reminder (if i'm right) that it was on this day that > Penn Central started....4-1-68 now that WAS a April Fool. >> > Sorry, but you are off by two months. 2-1-68 > > Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Good News on Tape From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 98 08:38:32 -0500 Content-Length: 816 For Jerry (and all others concerned), I stopped by at Charrette in Woburn Mass last night on my way to the North Shore Club. They do still stock 1/64 tape from Lettraset. It is not available in all types, only glossy. For masking purposes - who cares; but its absence in the matte finish lines may be why the clerk told you it was no longer available. It even comes in 6 colors - again - who cares! So let the striping begin! regards, Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:18:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Bowser goofed AGAIN (T-1) Content-Length: 4083 Hi all, I received my Bowser T-1 a couple of days ago (thanks Joe Zappa/Liberty) - WOW what an improvement over the old one! The boiler casting appears to be much closer to the prototype design, with very appropriate contours, scale rivets, appropraite details (recessed whistle, single oval stack...) etc. The tender is also very clean as it is now a casting rather that a wrapper. HOWEVER, as best I can tell, the tender represents the 1945 as built tender with shrouding all the way to the rear. As early as 1946, some of this shrouding was removed, and the back 1/3 was completely removed by the late 40's. The locomotive represents a very late 1940's or later version for the reasons discussed earlier. Interestingly, the previous tender model was more accurate for the loco depicted! Also, I assume in order to make casting easier, the shrouding is represented by a solid chunk of metal, obscuring the locations of the tender water fill hatches and the drains. So it appears that Bowser is intent on maintaining their policy of always providing the wrong tender with a locomotive!!!!! (Is this like the Amish quilters? I'm told they always include a mistake in a quilt, because only god is perfect) Some quick ideas on Bashing the Bowser T-1 1) Mill the shrouding down to the back deck and: a) model an appropriate later version of the tender (add hatches, drains, etc) b) add brass sheets back as appropriate shrouding for the earliest tender, and add the appropropriate details such as hatches, drains etc. 2) Earlier (porthole {portjole?}) versions of the locomotive: The surgery required for the pilot is pretty serious, but might actually be performed with two straight cuts at 90 degress from each other. Fabrication of the new pilot would be a challenge. Obviously, a casting would be a GREAT addition! 3) Remotoring: Piece of cake! At least two approaches are possible a) Replace Bowser motor with a can motor (just use the same worm gear) This requires a new motor mount to be bent from sheet brass - pretty easy really...Also, consider at this point creating a SEPERATE mount for the bolier attachment, perhaps even one that detaches from the bottom rather than the top of the boiler - fill the holes on the boiler top. b) Use gear towers - this will better hide that big ugle worm gear, but requires appropriate gears, and is more complex. This will also require newe motor mounts to be fabricated. c) Wait for Alco Models to produce a Helix Humper. 4) Rigidizing (that's a word????) the frame: Piece of cake!!! Add a piece of sheet brass, using the last two holes on the front frame and drill two holes on the rear frame - screw brass to each frame - four points of attachment make it rigid! Just be careful not to affect the mounting of the rear cylinders or the motors. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: [PRR] (Modeling)Lube Plates Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 06:20:25 PST Content-Length: 772 Does anyone know the correct lube plates to be used on Greenville 15 panel 100 ton hoppers (not necessarily PRR)? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ICQ: 10442115 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://prr.dsop.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] BP20 Sharks / Rails Northeast Date: Fri, 3 Apr 98 10:11:43 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1119 I had published on "Keystone Crossings" several weeks ago the painting and lettering diagrams for BP20 Passenger Sharks, taken from "Pennsy Journal". However, that issue included only schemes 2-4, stating that scheme 1 had previously been published in "Rails Northeast". I have about half of the "Rails Northeast" issues, but not the one with the original Shark diagram in it. Would those with complete collections please look for it. I need to borrow one to scan at high resolution in order to create the decal masters for Liberty Model Productions. Thank you.