Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 09:34:30 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: [O-HiRail] Golden State Passenger Train Content-Length: 1554 The GOLDEN STATE was appareently a PRR to Rock Island to Southern Pacific combined effort launched in 1947 and became coast-to-coast pullman service. I would be interested in learning more, if anyone would know and like to share. For instance, it would be logical for a NY to Chicago to ST. Lous to Los Angles routing, but that may not be what happened. I would also like to know how long it lasted. For any O Gaugers out here, K-Line has a good deal on their Collectors Club involving the GOLDEN STATE. There are many options, but most include a passenger and a freight car for $50 - $85 per year. You can get an 18 inch true scale extruded aluminum all metal car, or the 13.5 inch 027 version. Of course they are also selling additonal items. A K4 is planned for 2001, and extra cars are available this year. If you want more information, I will be glad to forward what I have. Please reply directly to me. Please publish any prototypical information about the GOLDEN STATE to PRR-TALK. This was the same type of thing that started the FLEET OF MODERNISM thread a year or so ago. K-Line has apparently done some practical research. I wish they would publish more information with the special collector's club trains. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:05:27 EST Subject: Re: [O-HiRail] Golden State Passenger Train Content-Length: 431 Hey Yuze Gize, I can not think of a good reason why you would go the Chicago first and then to St Louis if you were headed to Los Angeles. But if it would have made sense Pennsy would have done it. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:22:00 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Intermountain Kits Content-Length: 2150 George, I concur with most of what has already been said about adding grabs to detailed decorated kits (Intermountain, LL P2K, Red Caboose) , but in brief: 1) I use ACC (super glue), spotted onto a piece of glass, and applied with a pin in a pin vise 2) I try to glue from the back side, BUT in some cases, like LL P2K and Intermountain Tank cars, you are better off adding grabs AFTER assembly, so they must be glued from the outside. 3) I ALWAYS drill out the holes first 4) If you do get a little ACC on the outside of the model, DON'T panic! Just let it dry, and overspray with flat finish - and its GONE! (Tenax and Testors may disolve the finish and soften the plastic, which is why I never use them for this) 5) My local hobby shop will not stock Intermountain, and is probably going to drop LL P2K, and Red Caboose because I'm one of the only people who will buy the kits - apparently, the owner gets a lot of complaints that they are TOO DIFFICULT - Pshaw! It takes me about two hours of very pleasurable time to assemble any one of these kits. Happy Gluing Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:57:48 EST Subject: Re: Fw: Atlas & Ageing PRR fans Content-Length: 1614 In a message dated 98-02-28 17:34:58 EST, Carl P Izzo writes : << What these pinheads don't realize, it is the ageing PRR fans who have the > money to spend on their hobbies. When I was young, the kids always needed > shoes. >> Amen! Not to brag (well, maybe a little), but I paid for 5 college educations, 5 weddings, and 3 orthodenture bills before I exceeded $1000 cumulative in MRR expenditures. But since then I have averaged $2500/year in purchases. Bought a fleet of Red Caboose X29s and Bowser H21s, and am picking up my ABA P2K E7s this week. Can't wait for Bowser T1 and Stewart VO1000. And ,yes, having bought a half dozen DCC decoders to operate on the club, my starter kit for home use is next on the agenda. Please forgive following off-topic rambling: For those of you with young kids, there is hope! And I don't regret spending more time coaching little league than model railroading in the early days. It turned out my sons in particular were not interested in models-only sports. My daughters, OTOH, liked trains and their sons love them, so grandpa takes them to the club every chance I get. BTW, I don't think everyone should continue this thread with dollar amounts, for security reasons. However, I live in a very secure area (not in prison!) and bulk of collection is stored elsewhere, so I feel safe in this transmission. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:38:46 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Fw: Atlas & Ageing PRR fans Content-Length: 1635 > > I think your Atlas rep has a problem, or his company is run by pinheads! > > I am 65 and have been in HO Scale since 1947. In the past 6 months, I've > > spent about $1,500.00 on my Model railroad. Included in my purchases are > an > > ABBA set of PA's and an ABBA set of E7's, an S.2, a C.1, and numerous > > hoppers and box cars, all lettered for PRR. None of these were > > manufactured by Atlas. I will probably spend and additional $1,500.00 to > > $2,000.00 in the next 6 months. I am going into DCC. Likewise, I see that I have spent probably $3k in the last 18 months, maybe more, on items which were probably 80% Pennsy locos. In the near future, a pair of DGLE E7's, a C628, VO1000, an SD45, one or two sets of passenger Sharks, an RS2, all of these are on my list. If Atlas reintroduced their GP7 or did their S1 or S3 in PRR colors I'd be there in a flash. > > What these pinheads don't realize, it is the ageing PRR fans who have the > > money to spend on their hobbies. When I was young, the kids always > needed > > shoes. I agree (but since I have no kids, I *am* an aging fan... at 25!). When I was 20 I owned no Atlas locos or cars; Since then I've picked up at least one of every Pennsy loco they made save one, and that one I cannot find at all! These are cherished models, obviously, by their lack of availability. *Someone* other than me is buying them. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:21:56 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [HO] P2K tuscan E7's Content-Length: 451 Hi, If any of you have been having trouble finding those Life-Like Proto 2000 E7's (the Tuscan ones) Al's Hobby in Elmhurst, IL had at least one when I was through the other day; I should have the phone number if anyone cares. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:51:27 EST Subject: Re: [O-HiRail] Golden State Passenger Train Content-Length: 3461 In a message dated 98-03-01 09:57:54 EST, Larry Morgan writes: << The GOLDEN STATE was appareently a PRR to Rock Island to Southern Pacific combined effort launched in 1947 and became coast-to-coast pullman service. I would be interested in learning more, if anyone would know and like to share. For instance, it would be logical for a NY to Chicago to ST. Lous to Los Angles routing, but that may not be what happened. I would also like to know how long it lasted. >> The Golden State was the Rock Island's premier West Coast train (joint with the Southern Pacific) from Chicago to the West Coast, beginning as the Golden State Limited in 1902. I don't know if the train made it all the way to Amrtrak in 1971, but you could check the Rock Island historical society on the web if that was important to you.. For the lightweight train, a through sleeping car via the Pennsylvania RR (don't know about the NYC) ran every other day to New York from 1946 to 1951. To my knowledge (see how cautious I am getting?) connections were always through Chicago. The PRRT&HS Passenger Car and Lettering Guide describes the service, the cars (4 compartment, 4 double bedroom, 2 bedroom) , and the paint schemes on page 88. Briefly, the cars, Imperial Range and Imperial Terrace, started out two-tone gray for two years, were Daylight Red and silver for three, and then repainted two-tone gray for other service for two, before beng repainted in tuscan red in 1953. The car shown in the photo in the Guide has no skirts or has had the skirts removed. The through cars in this service at least started out with full skirting. Rock Island-SP contributed cars as well. I assume about four cars. Two were named Golden Fleece and Golden Cavern That book gives the Golden Arrow as the connecting train at that time and a video (Pennsy glory years, vol 3?)shows the car in that train in the late 40's behind a sharknose diesel, BP-20, near Chicago. That same video shows one of the cars in another train at Englewood. That train also includes a two-tone gray heavyweight and other Pullman green cars. It could have been the Pennsylvania Limited which carried Burlington and Overland cars for San Francisco and the Golden State and a C&NW-UP car for Los Angeles in 1951. Why the other cars were heavyweights (traffic requirements?) or why they would all appear the same day (all except the C&NW-UP car ran alternate days) is a good question. In 1950, the cars were listed in the General both ways, on alternate days. A photo in Don Ball's color Pennsylvania Railroad 1940-1950 book (page 149) shows 2 Golden State cars ahead of the observation car on the Admiral on the Curve. I assume traffic was heavy that day. In HO, MIcroscale decals are 87-122, but the Imperial Range and Imperial Terrace names are not included. I personally have an Eastern Car Works 4-4-2 and the decals to do the car (project No. 197). BTW, it is hard to tell the color of the end from photos. Original cars had full width diaphragms which were painted two-tone on the sides. Best I can tell from photos after removal of the full-width diaphragms, the entire end was painted Daylight red. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 20:59:26 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Golden State Passenger Train Content-Length: 2395 Greetings to Larry and the list: Here's the briefest of histories of the Golden State passenger train as it relates to the PRR. There were so many variations and permutations of these transcontinental sleeper operations that it would take a small book to document them, but here's a synopsis: American railroads started operating through transcontinental sleeping-car connections in the spring of 1946. On the eastern end of the country, PRR, B&O and NYC did the honors, with the terminating/originating points being New York or Washington, and the West Coast points being San Francisco or L.A., all via Chicago. The same eastern roads also operated a smaller number of Texas/Oklahoma-bound sleepers via St. Louis, connecting with MKT/Frisco/MP. Depending on market, equipment availability, season, and schedule of connecting trains, through sleeping cars ran daily or every other day. At Chicago, PRR trains forwarded sleepers to Santa Fe, Chicago & North Western (for connection with Union Pacific), Burlington (for connection with Rio Grande/Western Pacific; this became the California Zephyr connection when that train began running in 1949), and Rock Island (for connection with Southern Pacific). The Rock Island connection was with the Golden State, an extra-fare train that was operated by SP between Tucumcari, N.M., and L.A. While some of these sleepers continued to run for several years (most were quietly killed in late 1957), the PRR-Golden State through car was discontinued much earlier, in the early summer of 1951. Rock Island continued to run the Golden State, without a connecting car, until finally discontinuing it in the mid-1960s, several years before the coming of Amtrak in 1971. The PRR trains that connected to/from the Golden State did not stay the same from year to year. This is an incomplete list: In 1946, the PRR connection westbound was No. 89, the Golden Arrow, and eastbound it was No. 48, the General. In 1949, it was the Pennsylvanian westbound (79) and the Admiral eastbound (70). In 1951, it was the General in both directions (48/49). Hope this helps. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Intermountain Kits Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:33:13 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1427 On 1 Mar, "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > 5) My local hobby shop will not stock Intermountain, and is probably going > to drop LL P2K, and Red Caboose because I'm one of the only people who will > buy the kits - apparently, the owner gets a lot of complaints that they are > TOO DIFFICULT - Pshaw! It takes me about two hours of very pleasurable > time to assemble any one of these kits. Offer to hold clinics at this shop on building the kits! Hold it at the busiest time (Saturday, probably); all you should need is a card-table-sized space (display counter?), plus room for the customers. Be prepared to answer the same questions again and again as fresh customers arrive. Focus on the right tools and techniques. The shop sells the tools, cement, and paint, right? I used the spare grabs from the third and fourth kit to finish the first two, but now I have plenty, and I'm using them to superdetail MT and Atlas boxcars. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:35:47 EST Subject: Re: Fw: Atlas & Ageing PRR fans Content-Length: 517 Bob, I admire you for your endeavor to be an SPF. Anfd I love the part that tells me you are passing the hobby into the next generation. I am 42 and a 3rd generation modeler and it was someone just like you Bob that passed that on to me . To you sir I take my hat off. BULLY!!!! Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:51:23 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1698 On 27 Feb, TGREGMRTN wrote: > Perhaps the market is waning for Atlas, but not for other producers, ask > RED CABOOSE. I would have to say that perhaps it is the offerings that they > put on the table that is drying up. I'm a SPF and I'm 42 soon to be 43. But > my next article for Mainline will be a Pennsy offering and what we Pennsy > modelers have to go through to make their (Atlas) offerings correct for > Pennsy. Their market may be off but they can make it better. In N Scale, Atlas' PRR products are an interesting mix of dead-accurate paint jobs on non-PRR cars (PS-1 painted X29, etc). That's why they don't get more of my money. I can see their point; they only want to make things they can put a dozen paint schemes on, and PRR built too many of its own unique cars. Thankfully, we have Fine N Scale making X29, X31 and X32 boxcars, all beautiful models. I do wish he'd make Pennsy roofs for applying to other models! The Intermountain 50' DD boxcars would make a better X38 if they had the right roof (didn't stop me from buying them). Dead-on paint scheme (Automobile Circle Keystone), except that they marked it X38B. BTW, I'm a 43-year-old SPF, modelling the year of my birth. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:35:35 EST Subject: Z-62 business cars Content-Length: 473 I need help with modeling the Pennsy Z-62 business cars. When were they used, where were they used and most importantly....what names and numbers were used on them. I understand there were 7 cars but that's about all I have on them. Any help out there? Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Mar 98 09:44:19 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 1628 Were there any two Pennsy towers that were alike? They all seemed to be unique in their construction, in some way. Was there a 'standard' tower design, or designs, for 'modern', wood construction machine-interlocked towers? LInes West guys: were things more standardized out west? Or even less so, than Lines East? Perhaps AMB might include in the instructions photos of towers their kit would be 'close' to, in order to detail it/kitbash it into an accurate replica of a specific installation. At least someone is working on a kit for one. Did Quality-Craft or Gloor-Craft offer a model of one, at one time? -- Doug Drew TGREGMRTN wrote: >Bob, > American Model Builders is working on it. It is not done yet. I have had >several conversations on which tower to do. I do not believe they have come to >a concrete committment yet. But we will have a Pennsy HO Scale Tower that >SPEAKS OF PENNSY. I know the owner personally and we talk all the time. I >have suggested he does not pattern it after any particular tower, but it must >be "typically Pennsy". Care to share your comments I realize I might take some >heat on this, but my shoulders are broad. > Greg Martin > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Mar 98 10:03:53 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: PRR credit card guy (was legal standing of PRR emblem) Content-Length: 736 First I've heard of this -- what is it, a supposed credit card with a PRR keystone on it? What's the scam? -- Doug Drew cschlund wrote: >Hi Dan & list members, > >The PRR credit card guy is still around, he was working the front entrance >of the San Francisco (Cow Palace) GATS show. Given what I had heard about >all this on the list, I gave him & his booth a wide berth. > > - Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) > Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale > San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:32:42 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 732 Doug Drew wrote: (Referring to PRR Interlocking Towers) > > At least someone is working on a kit for one. Did Quality-Craft or > Gloor-Craft offer a model of one, at one time? > -- Doug Drew > Doug, Quality Craft produced a kit that they claimed was based on the Jack's Run tower, in both O (and HO?). I think they are still produced by Gloor Craft. Various reviews, in The Keystone and elsewhere, pointed out a few correctible discrepancies, but they definitely have the PRR look. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:50:49 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 998 On 1 Mar, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > In N Scale, Atlas' PRR products are an interesting mix of > dead-accurate paint jobs on non-PRR cars (PS-1 painted X29, > etc). I just realized that I should amend my own posting. Atlas' 40' plug-door box (33211) is a dead-on match (number and all) for a car in Color Guide Vol 1, as is one of the two-bay covered hoppers (can't remember which offhand). I didn't mean to ignore the excellent PRR matches that Atlas does make. They're just after my era, so I tend to forget them. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 09:03:19 CST Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 1587 On 02 Mar 98 09:44:19 -0500, Doug Drew wrote: >Were there any two Pennsy towers that were alike? They all seemed to be >unique in their construction, in some way. Was there a 'standard' tower >design, or designs, for 'modern', wood construction machine-interlocked >towers? Hi, all, I cannot speak with certainty here but I too have the same impression - that individual towers had a "family resemblance" but were not exact duplicates. The Middle Div., which I know best, is a case in point. >At least someone is working on a kit for one. Did Quality-Craft or >Gloor-Craft offer a model of one, at one time? Yes, this was a wood kit based on JACKS tower in Jacks Narrows east of Lewistown. A nice kit - I have two of them. What would be great would be to have these manufacturers sell their detail parts for these towers separately. In my case, I'm modeling the towers which controlled each end of the trackage at Denholm (west of Mifflin,PA) where the huge coal wharf was. Each was similar to JACKS, esp. in the details like the wiondows, molding, etc. Thus I'm using the Gloorcraft kits and adding material to make the two larger towers which I need. It's the details which give it the PRR look. PRR forever, Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 09:34:30 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: [O-HiRail] Golden State Passenger Train Content-Length: 1554 The GOLDEN STATE was appareently a PRR to Rock Island to Southern Pacific combined effort launched in 1947 and became coast-to-coast pullman service. I would be interested in learning more, if anyone would know and like to share. For instance, it would be logical for a NY to Chicago to ST. Lous to Los Angles routing, but that may not be what happened. I would also like to know how long it lasted. For any O Gaugers out here, K-Line has a good deal on their Collectors Club involving the GOLDEN STATE. There are many options, but most include a passenger and a freight car for $50 - $85 per year. You can get an 18 inch true scale extruded aluminum all metal car, or the 13.5 inch 027 version. Of course they are also selling additonal items. A K4 is planned for 2001, and extra cars are available this year. If you want more information, I will be glad to forward what I have. Please reply directly to me. Please publish any prototypical information about the GOLDEN STATE to PRR-TALK. This was the same type of thing that started the FLEET OF MODERNISM thread a year or so ago. K-Line has apparently done some practical research. I wish they would publish more information with the special collector's club trains. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:05:27 EST Subject: Re: [O-HiRail] Golden State Passenger Train Content-Length: 431 Hey Yuze Gize, I can not think of a good reason why you would go the Chicago first and then to St Louis if you were headed to Los Angeles. But if it would have made sense Pennsy would have done it. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:22:00 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Intermountain Kits Content-Length: 2150 George, I concur with most of what has already been said about adding grabs to detailed decorated kits (Intermountain, LL P2K, Red Caboose) , but in brief: 1) I use ACC (super glue), spotted onto a piece of glass, and applied with a pin in a pin vise 2) I try to glue from the back side, BUT in some cases, like LL P2K and Intermountain Tank cars, you are better off adding grabs AFTER assembly, so they must be glued from the outside. 3) I ALWAYS drill out the holes first 4) If you do get a little ACC on the outside of the model, DON'T panic! Just let it dry, and overspray with flat finish - and its GONE! (Tenax and Testors may disolve the finish and soften the plastic, which is why I never use them for this) 5) My local hobby shop will not stock Intermountain, and is probably going to drop LL P2K, and Red Caboose because I'm one of the only people who will buy the kits - apparently, the owner gets a lot of complaints that they are TOO DIFFICULT - Pshaw! It takes me about two hours of very pleasurable time to assemble any one of these kits. Happy Gluing Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:57:48 EST Subject: Re: Fw: Atlas & Ageing PRR fans Content-Length: 1614 In a message dated 98-02-28 17:34:58 EST, Carl P Izzo writes : << What these pinheads don't realize, it is the ageing PRR fans who have the > money to spend on their hobbies. When I was young, the kids always needed > shoes. >> Amen! Not to brag (well, maybe a little), but I paid for 5 college educations, 5 weddings, and 3 orthodenture bills before I exceeded $1000 cumulative in MRR expenditures. But since then I have averaged $2500/year in purchases. Bought a fleet of Red Caboose X29s and Bowser H21s, and am picking up my ABA P2K E7s this week. Can't wait for Bowser T1 and Stewart VO1000. And ,yes, having bought a half dozen DCC decoders to operate on the club, my starter kit for home use is next on the agenda. Please forgive following off-topic rambling: For those of you with young kids, there is hope! And I don't regret spending more time coaching little league than model railroading in the early days. It turned out my sons in particular were not interested in models-only sports. My daughters, OTOH, liked trains and their sons love them, so grandpa takes them to the club every chance I get. BTW, I don't think everyone should continue this thread with dollar amounts, for security reasons. However, I live in a very secure area (not in prison!) and bulk of collection is stored elsewhere, so I feel safe in this transmission. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:38:46 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Fw: Atlas & Ageing PRR fans Content-Length: 1635 > > I think your Atlas rep has a problem, or his company is run by pinheads! > > I am 65 and have been in HO Scale since 1947. In the past 6 months, I've > > spent about $1,500.00 on my Model railroad. Included in my purchases are > an > > ABBA set of PA's and an ABBA set of E7's, an S.2, a C.1, and numerous > > hoppers and box cars, all lettered for PRR. None of these were > > manufactured by Atlas. I will probably spend and additional $1,500.00 to > > $2,000.00 in the next 6 months. I am going into DCC. Likewise, I see that I have spent probably $3k in the last 18 months, maybe more, on items which were probably 80% Pennsy locos. In the near future, a pair of DGLE E7's, a C628, VO1000, an SD45, one or two sets of passenger Sharks, an RS2, all of these are on my list. If Atlas reintroduced their GP7 or did their S1 or S3 in PRR colors I'd be there in a flash. > > What these pinheads don't realize, it is the ageing PRR fans who have the > > money to spend on their hobbies. When I was young, the kids always > needed > > shoes. I agree (but since I have no kids, I *am* an aging fan... at 25!). When I was 20 I owned no Atlas locos or cars; Since then I've picked up at least one of every Pennsy loco they made save one, and that one I cannot find at all! These are cherished models, obviously, by their lack of availability. *Someone* other than me is buying them. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:21:56 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [HO] P2K tuscan E7's Content-Length: 451 Hi, If any of you have been having trouble finding those Life-Like Proto 2000 E7's (the Tuscan ones) Al's Hobby in Elmhurst, IL had at least one when I was through the other day; I should have the phone number if anyone cares. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:51:27 EST Subject: Re: [O-HiRail] Golden State Passenger Train Content-Length: 3461 In a message dated 98-03-01 09:57:54 EST, Larry Morgan writes: << The GOLDEN STATE was appareently a PRR to Rock Island to Southern Pacific combined effort launched in 1947 and became coast-to-coast pullman service. I would be interested in learning more, if anyone would know and like to share. For instance, it would be logical for a NY to Chicago to ST. Lous to Los Angles routing, but that may not be what happened. I would also like to know how long it lasted. >> The Golden State was the Rock Island's premier West Coast train (joint with the Southern Pacific) from Chicago to the West Coast, beginning as the Golden State Limited in 1902. I don't know if the train made it all the way to Amrtrak in 1971, but you could check the Rock Island historical society on the web if that was important to you.. For the lightweight train, a through sleeping car via the Pennsylvania RR (don't know about the NYC) ran every other day to New York from 1946 to 1951. To my knowledge (see how cautious I am getting?) connections were always through Chicago. The PRRT&HS Passenger Car and Lettering Guide describes the service, the cars (4 compartment, 4 double bedroom, 2 bedroom) , and the paint schemes on page 88. Briefly, the cars, Imperial Range and Imperial Terrace, started out two-tone gray for two years, were Daylight Red and silver for three, and then repainted two-tone gray for other service for two, before beng repainted in tuscan red in 1953. The car shown in the photo in the Guide has no skirts or has had the skirts removed. The through cars in this service at least started out with full skirting. Rock Island-SP contributed cars as well. I assume about four cars. Two were named Golden Fleece and Golden Cavern That book gives the Golden Arrow as the connecting train at that time and a video (Pennsy glory years, vol 3?)shows the car in that train in the late 40's behind a sharknose diesel, BP-20, near Chicago. That same video shows one of the cars in another train at Englewood. That train also includes a two-tone gray heavyweight and other Pullman green cars. It could have been the Pennsylvania Limited which carried Burlington and Overland cars for San Francisco and the Golden State and a C&NW-UP car for Los Angeles in 1951. Why the other cars were heavyweights (traffic requirements?) or why they would all appear the same day (all except the C&NW-UP car ran alternate days) is a good question. In 1950, the cars were listed in the General both ways, on alternate days. A photo in Don Ball's color Pennsylvania Railroad 1940-1950 book (page 149) shows 2 Golden State cars ahead of the observation car on the Admiral on the Curve. I assume traffic was heavy that day. In HO, MIcroscale decals are 87-122, but the Imperial Range and Imperial Terrace names are not included. I personally have an Eastern Car Works 4-4-2 and the decals to do the car (project No. 197). BTW, it is hard to tell the color of the end from photos. Original cars had full width diaphragms which were painted two-tone on the sides. Best I can tell from photos after removal of the full-width diaphragms, the entire end was painted Daylight red. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 20:59:26 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Golden State Passenger Train Content-Length: 2395 Greetings to Larry and the list: Here's the briefest of histories of the Golden State passenger train as it relates to the PRR. There were so many variations and permutations of these transcontinental sleeper operations that it would take a small book to document them, but here's a synopsis: American railroads started operating through transcontinental sleeping-car connections in the spring of 1946. On the eastern end of the country, PRR, B&O and NYC did the honors, with the terminating/originating points being New York or Washington, and the West Coast points being San Francisco or L.A., all via Chicago. The same eastern roads also operated a smaller number of Texas/Oklahoma-bound sleepers via St. Louis, connecting with MKT/Frisco/MP. Depending on market, equipment availability, season, and schedule of connecting trains, through sleeping cars ran daily or every other day. At Chicago, PRR trains forwarded sleepers to Santa Fe, Chicago & North Western (for connection with Union Pacific), Burlington (for connection with Rio Grande/Western Pacific; this became the California Zephyr connection when that train began running in 1949), and Rock Island (for connection with Southern Pacific). The Rock Island connection was with the Golden State, an extra-fare train that was operated by SP between Tucumcari, N.M., and L.A. While some of these sleepers continued to run for several years (most were quietly killed in late 1957), the PRR-Golden State through car was discontinued much earlier, in the early summer of 1951. Rock Island continued to run the Golden State, without a connecting car, until finally discontinuing it in the mid-1960s, several years before the coming of Amtrak in 1971. The PRR trains that connected to/from the Golden State did not stay the same from year to year. This is an incomplete list: In 1946, the PRR connection westbound was No. 89, the Golden Arrow, and eastbound it was No. 48, the General. In 1949, it was the Pennsylvanian westbound (79) and the Admiral eastbound (70). In 1951, it was the General in both directions (48/49). Hope this helps. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Intermountain Kits Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:33:13 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1427 On 1 Mar, "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > 5) My local hobby shop will not stock Intermountain, and is probably going > to drop LL P2K, and Red Caboose because I'm one of the only people who will > buy the kits - apparently, the owner gets a lot of complaints that they are > TOO DIFFICULT - Pshaw! It takes me about two hours of very pleasurable > time to assemble any one of these kits. Offer to hold clinics at this shop on building the kits! Hold it at the busiest time (Saturday, probably); all you should need is a card-table-sized space (display counter?), plus room for the customers. Be prepared to answer the same questions again and again as fresh customers arrive. Focus on the right tools and techniques. The shop sells the tools, cement, and paint, right? I used the spare grabs from the third and fourth kit to finish the first two, but now I have plenty, and I'm using them to superdetail MT and Atlas boxcars. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:35:47 EST Subject: Re: Fw: Atlas & Ageing PRR fans Content-Length: 517 Bob, I admire you for your endeavor to be an SPF. Anfd I love the part that tells me you are passing the hobby into the next generation. I am 42 and a 3rd generation modeler and it was someone just like you Bob that passed that on to me . To you sir I take my hat off. BULLY!!!! Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:51:23 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1698 On 27 Feb, TGREGMRTN wrote: > Perhaps the market is waning for Atlas, but not for other producers, ask > RED CABOOSE. I would have to say that perhaps it is the offerings that they > put on the table that is drying up. I'm a SPF and I'm 42 soon to be 43. But > my next article for Mainline will be a Pennsy offering and what we Pennsy > modelers have to go through to make their (Atlas) offerings correct for > Pennsy. Their market may be off but they can make it better. In N Scale, Atlas' PRR products are an interesting mix of dead-accurate paint jobs on non-PRR cars (PS-1 painted X29, etc). That's why they don't get more of my money. I can see their point; they only want to make things they can put a dozen paint schemes on, and PRR built too many of its own unique cars. Thankfully, we have Fine N Scale making X29, X31 and X32 boxcars, all beautiful models. I do wish he'd make Pennsy roofs for applying to other models! The Intermountain 50' DD boxcars would make a better X38 if they had the right roof (didn't stop me from buying them). Dead-on paint scheme (Automobile Circle Keystone), except that they marked it X38B. BTW, I'm a 43-year-old SPF, modelling the year of my birth. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:35:35 EST Subject: Z-62 business cars Content-Length: 473 I need help with modeling the Pennsy Z-62 business cars. When were they used, where were they used and most importantly....what names and numbers were used on them. I understand there were 7 cars but that's about all I have on them. Any help out there? Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Mar 98 09:44:19 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 1628 Were there any two Pennsy towers that were alike? They all seemed to be unique in their construction, in some way. Was there a 'standard' tower design, or designs, for 'modern', wood construction machine-interlocked towers? LInes West guys: were things more standardized out west? Or even less so, than Lines East? Perhaps AMB might include in the instructions photos of towers their kit would be 'close' to, in order to detail it/kitbash it into an accurate replica of a specific installation. At least someone is working on a kit for one. Did Quality-Craft or Gloor-Craft offer a model of one, at one time? -- Doug Drew TGREGMRTN wrote: >Bob, > American Model Builders is working on it. It is not done yet. I have had >several conversations on which tower to do. I do not believe they have come to >a concrete committment yet. But we will have a Pennsy HO Scale Tower that >SPEAKS OF PENNSY. I know the owner personally and we talk all the time. I >have suggested he does not pattern it after any particular tower, but it must >be "typically Pennsy". Care to share your comments I realize I might take some >heat on this, but my shoulders are broad. > Greg Martin > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 09:03:19 CST Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 1587 On 02 Mar 98 09:44:19 -0500, Doug Drew wrote: >Were there any two Pennsy towers that were alike? They all seemed to be >unique in their construction, in some way. Was there a 'standard' tower >design, or designs, for 'modern', wood construction machine-interlocked >towers? Hi, all, I cannot speak with certainty here but I too have the same impression - that individual towers had a "family resemblance" but were not exact duplicates. The Middle Div., which I know best, is a case in point. >At least someone is working on a kit for one. Did Quality-Craft or >Gloor-Craft offer a model of one, at one time? Yes, this was a wood kit based on JACKS tower in Jacks Narrows east of Lewistown. A nice kit - I have two of them. What would be great would be to have these manufacturers sell their detail parts for these towers separately. In my case, I'm modeling the towers which controlled each end of the trackage at Denholm (west of Mifflin,PA) where the huge coal wharf was. Each was similar to JACKS, esp. in the details like the wiondows, molding, etc. Thus I'm using the Gloorcraft kits and adding material to make the two larger towers which I need. It's the details which give it the PRR look. PRR forever, Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Mar 98 10:03:53 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: PRR credit card guy (was legal standing of PRR emblem) Content-Length: 736 First I've heard of this -- what is it, a supposed credit card with a PRR keystone on it? What's the scam? -- Doug Drew cschlund wrote: >Hi Dan & list members, > >The PRR credit card guy is still around, he was working the front entrance >of the San Francisco (Cow Palace) GATS show. Given what I had heard about >all this on the list, I gave him & his booth a wide berth. > > - Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) > Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale > San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:32:42 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 732 Doug Drew wrote: (Referring to PRR Interlocking Towers) > > At least someone is working on a kit for one. Did Quality-Craft or > Gloor-Craft offer a model of one, at one time? > -- Doug Drew > Doug, Quality Craft produced a kit that they claimed was based on the Jack's Run tower, in both O (and HO?). I think they are still produced by Gloor Craft. Various reviews, in The Keystone and elsewhere, pointed out a few correctible discrepancies, but they definitely have the PRR look. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:50:49 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 998 On 1 Mar, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > In N Scale, Atlas' PRR products are an interesting mix of > dead-accurate paint jobs on non-PRR cars (PS-1 painted X29, > etc). I just realized that I should amend my own posting. Atlas' 40' plug-door box (33211) is a dead-on match (number and all) for a car in Color Guide Vol 1, as is one of the two-bay covered hoppers (can't remember which offhand). I didn't mean to ignore the excellent PRR matches that Atlas does make. They're just after my era, so I tend to forget them. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:43:58 EST Subject: Re: Z-62 business cars Content-Length: 685 Quick response: This subject was covered sometime back in both the Keystone and Rails Northeast, I believe. One thing I remember immediately is that there is a trap -- the same car can have multiple names over time. For example, the Williamsport (7530) at the Ohio Railway Museum had Buffalo under the paint when it was stripped some years back. In 1928, 7531 was the Columbus. And 7528 went to the DT&I (when?). Having trouble finding the source(s) of these facts. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:44:00 EST Subject: Re: Towers alike? Content-Length: 1495 In a message dated 98-03-02 09:47:53 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: << PRR-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) >> As a Lines Southwest fan, it seemed to me: 1. A lot of Pennsy towers had definite family resemblances. Occasionally, you would see the same plan multiple places. For example, Piqua Crossing (Piqua Ohio), a brick 2-story, looks identical to Race(?) tower in Logansport and to one in east Columbus near Alum Creek. 2. Taken as a whole, a tower was more likely to be masonry east of Pittsburgh, and wood on Lines West (of course, with enough exceptions to fill up several books). Towers with cantilevered operators bays projecting out the front of the second story are more likely to be "Eastern" (Jacks, Huntington (PA) and many more. 3. On Lines West, there were a great many wood 2 story block towers. By the end of the Pennsy, it seemed the majority had received that "beauty treatment" siding (pastel green asphalt shingling?). 4. A peculiarity of block towers between Crestline and Chicago is that they often had outhouses (still standing in the 70s). We didn't notice this elsewhere on the system. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY PRR Columbus Div. 1968 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:46:10 EST Subject: Ageing PRR fans Content-Length: 340 ATLAS should ask BOWSER - at last report all variants of the H-21 Hopper and the Round Roof Box cars were sold out............. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:38:22 EST Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks Content-Length: 350 Additional information THe Allied Cushion Trucks were calss 2DF23 and used primarily on X38, G29b, P30 and P30a class cars. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Mar 98 17:32:09 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Towers alike? Content-Length: 500 Rick Tipton wrote: >4. A peculiarity of block towers between Crestline and Chicago is that they >often had outhouses (still standing in the 70s). We didn't notice this >elsewhere on the system. Okay, who can tell me where to find plans for a Standard PRRivy? ; < ) -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:34:51 EST Subject: BM-60's Content-Length: 615 Anyone have any information on the BM-60 RPO's? I have been able to find nothing on them during their Pennsy days. Several were sold to the N&W and converted to mail storage cars by closing in the windows. I need numbers for them as I need to paint several models. Does anyone know when they were built, used, retired and where they ran. Very elusive cars-no photos that I've found. Thanks, Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:09:01 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: PRRivvy (was Re: Towers alike?) Content-Length: 1987 Doug Drew wrote: > Okay, who can tell me where to find plans for a Standard PRRivy? ; < ) > ^ X X x X X x X X x X X X X X ___________ X X | | | | X | | ___ | | | | _\ /_ | | | | \ / | | /---\ | | \_/ | | / O\ | | | | ( O ) | | | | \O / | | -o| | \---/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////\\\\//////\\\\\\\////////////\\\\\\ Signals as follows: Horizontal: Occupied. Vertical: Unoccupied. Diagonal: RR execs only. (I'm voluntarily cauterizing the end of this thread.....zzzzzzzzt!) _________ __\ _ /__ --------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- ---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- ----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ -----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ ------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 17:25:58 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: Golden State Content-Length: 935 For what it's worth, the 4th flight of HO P2K E7's include the SP in Golden State livery. Some might say that it isn't as "pretty" as the Daylight scheme, but it is truly elegant. (BTW, trains aren't meant to be pretty. They are elegant, impressive, awesome, handsome, etc. Just the way that good coffee is a hearty aromatic meal, not a confection.). At one time, there was a special set of Rivarossi cars painted in the Golden State scheme and Con-Cor did these in N-scale as well. Remember that Rivarossi also released various through cars used on coast-to-coast services. For example, there is a two-toned gray car for a UP train but lettered with a small Pennsylvania at the end of the letterboard. Frank ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:34:52 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Towers alike? Content-Length: 871 Doug Drew wrote: >Okay, who can tell me where to find plans for a Standard PRRivy? ; < ) ===== You might check with the NMRA; as I recall, there was a brief mention of outhouses (outheese?) in some back issue entitled: ********** A One Evening Project: A Small Rural Structure by, Whit Biffy ********** Rots of ruck. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:05:43 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Cabin Car Trucks Content-Length: 801 Greetings, I'm looking for information on the various trucks used on PRR cabins throughout the years. As a start, I'm especially interested in those used on the N5b cars, but want to collect information on all of them. What I need is the class of each and also where I can get a good, clear photograph of each for reference purposes. Though I have small bits of information on a very few, it's not enough to do anything with in my modeling. I have Bowser's models, but I'm looking for Prototype photos for details. Any help will be much appreciated. TIA Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:26:21 -0500 From: steve long Subject: standard plans Content-Length: 716 Heys guys, I remember seeing plans for a PRR privy, both single and double holers in the 57 Standard Plans from the Pennsylvania Railroad I don't have my copy handy but it does exist. Also in it was demensions for whistleposts, phone booths, handrails, and some track turnouts plus trestles. Don't ask me who published it I just remember the cover being green. Everything I have seen on Pennsy property was confirmed in the book. Steve Long, "Watching over the Vandalia Line, Michigan Division". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 22:25:54 -0500 From: steve long Subject: I found it and I was wrong Content-Length: 707 It's not in the book, I was wrong, but I have seen it, it does exist. It's easy mistaking a phone booth for a privy. Maybe that's why Ma bell doesn't like me. One thing that's handy is on page 47, it's a font layout for signs and notices, dated Jan. 1911.The book is titled as follows: "57 plans Compiled in the Office of Chief Engineer of Maintenance of Way for the Pennsylvania Railroad", published by Boynton & Associates Clifton House/Clifton ,Va 22024 printed 1967 Steve Long ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:11:28 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Content-Length: 1154 Jerry Shickler wrote: > > A few weeks ago, Rob Schoenberg said that an Atlas rep. said that the > Pennsy market is drying up as its fan base ages. I'm interested in > seeing what the average & range of ages of list subscribers is. If those > willing would e-mail me (off list) their ages, I'll post the results, > and also send them to the Atlas rep who lurks at rec.models.railroad. > With 47 people responding, both the average and median age are 45 yrs old. Many people said that they have children, grandchildren, or fellow club members who are also SPF's, but I didn't include those. Roughly a third of the list responded, so for those who haven't and wish to, please e-mail me with your age (I'm 34, BTW). It would be interesting to do a similar survey on the Conrail list, or if there are other modern RR lists, to compare numbers. (I don't subscribe to Conrail). -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 07:56:18 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Towers alike? Content-Length: 977 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > Doug Drew wrote: > > >Okay, who can tell me where to find plans for a Standard PRRivy? ; < ) > > ===== > > You might check with the NMRA; as I recall, there was a brief mention of > outhouses (outheese?) in some back issue..." ----------------------------- Gentlemen, If you can go back to NMRA Bulletins from the 1960's, that organization was virtually polarized, almost to the point of secession, by a long and bitter series of articles and letters as to whether outhouses, and the modeling thereof, were a fit subject for the "Bulletin." As I recall, it was sparked by one member's construction article and another's letter of condemnation. Tolerance was not the byword of the day. Steve Bartlett > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:52:13 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: I need photos & drawings! Content-Length: 1820 Hi All, I have several PRR needs - any help would be greatly appreciated: 1) I need photographs or drawings of the Martic Forge Bridge on the A&S branch (I know Jerry has a photo on his web site) 2) I need photographs or drawings of the Safe Harbor bridges over Conestoga Creek (C&PD and A&S branches) (I know Jerry has a photo on his web site) 3) I need photos or drawings of the catenary tower cars which were based on the FM flat car. In particular, I need good views of the mechanical workings. (I know about the photos in the Color Guides 1 & 2) 4) I need photos or drawings of cabin car underbody details. Specifically, the N4 and N6B are of interest. I am looking for DETAILS - locations of all piping, cylinders, levers etc. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:50:40 -0600 From: John Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Content-Length: 790 Jerry Shickler wrote: > A few weeks ago, Rob Schoenberg said that an Atlas rep. said that the > Pennsy market is drying up as its fan base ages. I'm interested in > seeing what the average & range of ages of list subscribers is. Ironically, I recently had a similar conversation with the owner of a local hobby shop. He stated the hobby is seeing an upswing in interest and sales but most of the new- comers are older folks. I'm 55 and am returning to the hobby after being away from it since the early 70s. Gee, I wish I had saved all my "stuff". :) John ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:31:34 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Content-Length: 686 Hi there- I'm all of 56 and an SPF. At present, there seems to be more PRR stuff on the market that is correct for the prototype (not just lettered PRR) than ever before. But if all that should cease, I'll just go back to what I used to do: I'll kitbash what I need. If Atlas doesn't want to letter a first generation diesel PRR, then I buy an undec and paint it myself. Usually I'm more satisfied with my own paint jobs and my own lettering anyway. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: MP229 Motive Power Assignments Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:38:06 -0500 Content-Length: 542 Greetings All! I am looking for a 1952 copy of PRR's "MP229" Motive Power Assignments. If anyone has a copy I will gladly pay for a quality photo copy duplicate plus postage, etc.. (Please reply via private e-mail.) Thanks. Steve Sejda (srsejda@jaguarsystems.com) Hoping to model the Phila. Terminal Division someday. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: GG-1 Sound Effects Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 20:10:00 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 660 A few months back I recall someone looking for digital sounds for a GG-1. The April 1998 issue of Model Railroader has an ad for one on page 12. The company is Dallee Electronics (http://www.dallee.com) and the price is $109.95. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:35:18 EST Subject: Barree in the Middle Division Content-Length: 1049 I sent this message several days ago and don't recall a copy coming back to me, perhaps it never made it through AOL, I may have sent it when the had their big crash last week. If no one responds I will assume the information I seek is not available through PRR-Talk. "Does anyone know of any sources of photographs, magazine articles, and other information for Barree. Particularly need information on the passenger station and other trackside structures. Also E. R Baldrige Co., photos, what did they manufacture? They are listed in the 1923 CT 1000E and the 1945 CT 1000. Their siding is/was located 1.2 miles west of the passenger station which would place it near or just beyond Tunnel Interlocking. The topo maps shows a gravel pit near this location, would this be a Baldrige facility? Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 19:59:09 CST Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 4696 Hi, all, Some thoughts on the Denholm coal wharf. Is the Denholm coaling station the focus point of your layout, or >just part of it? It's something of a focal point, but because of its location and the necessary selective compression (from 12 to 6 tracks wide; much much shorter from interlocking to interlocking) maybe not as much as it might sound. >I haven't seen many photos of the Denholm coaler, or the area in general. >I can only remember one Don Wood photo, and that was focusing on the >engine passing through. I once saw a picture of a crude model of it in an old >Model Railroader. There was a long article with many photos in an issue of the KEYSTONE from the early 1980's. That's where I got most of my info. I also got a glimpse of it in a PRR video, shot from the >rear of a passing train. If this is the Green Frog video and the scene was black & white, then it was not Denholm, but its near-twin at Thorndale. This video identifies this coal wharf as Denholm but it is not because the wharf ends abruptly at the very end of this sequence, whereas Denholm had track running off each end. My understanding is that there was a fairly >substantial yard there, for storage of coal cars. A track diverged from the >yard and 'flew over' the main directly above the coal bins. Hoppers parked >there would dump into the bins. Were the cars above the bins used to store >the coal until it was to be dumped into locomotives, rather than the large >storage hopper setup more usually seen? Yes, cars were run out onto the wharf from a nearby small holding yard, emptied into the bins in the wharf itself and then rolled off by gravity onto a holding track on the other side of the wharf. The KEYSTONE article includes excellent track diagrams. The wharf also had bins for sand, standpipes for water, inspection pits, and ash pits where fires were cleaned and the ashes conveyed up into an adjacent ash house bin by two underground continuous conveyors. There was also a powerhouse adjacent which provided first steam and then electricity. > >Did Denholm have a station where a local passenger train might stop? Yes, up until the 1930s, if memory serves me right. How extensive were the other facilities there -- a freight house, maintenance >of way sheds, etc.? Not much else - there were some houses for employees nearby and a few still stand. In addition, the PRR maintained some reservoirs on the mountain to the south, some of which are still used, I believe, by some of the local towns for water. Obviously, there were towers, as you mentioned. Did >all steam-powered trains stop for coal, or just freights, or did it >'depend'? Mostly west-bound freights and probably mostly for coal - they could scoop water at Hawstone, further west. The wharf was completed c. 1910, when H class 2-8-0s were the standard freight engine, and whose tenders were small and needed frequent replenishment. The sense I have is that fewer passenger trains stopped than freight. > >What are you using for data about the trackage layout, station(s), other >buildings, and the coal wharf itself? The KEYSTONE article is the main source. I worked up simplified plans from the photos. Parts were scratch built but the main steel framework came from two IHC (?) Cheyenne Coaling towers. They were similar enough and a heck of lot easier to built than scratchbuilting all those rivited girders. Denholm stayed in service until the end of steam on the Middle Div. in the late 1950s. It was torn down about 1960. There is still a wide spot in the track at Denholm and one stone abutment from the lead track onto the wharf is easily seen. While in operation, a crew of five or six men were needed for each shift. Sand was unloaded by hand from gons - about one car per shift, I believe. Unlike coaling towers in yards, the release of coal was partially controlled by personnel on the coal wharf. Jerry was kind enough to put my layout trackplan on his website. I guess one of these days I ought to send him a photo of Denholm. Thanks to a friend who works for Union Switch and Signal, one of the towers I'm building will have a complete rod-driven (not working!!) interlocking system - at least, that's the plan! PRR forever, Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR Passenger Equipment Roster Reprint Date: Tue, 3 Mar 98 20:13:09 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 877 The April 1998 issue of Model Railroader, beginning on page 42, in the "Railroader's Library" section, indicates that Wahsatch Backshop (763 Montclair Drive, No. 9, Claymont, DE 19703-3608) has reprinted two PRR documents: The PRR Book of Rules, Sept. 30, 1951, is available for $8 plus $2 shipping. The PRR Passenger Equipment Roster, Oct. 1, 1954, is available for $20 plus $3 shipping. Anyone see the latter? I may be interested. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:13:23 EST Subject: Re: MP229 Motive Power Assignments Content-Length: 551 In a message dated 98-03-03 18:42:42 EST, srsejda@jaguarsystems.com writes: << I am looking for a 1952 copy of PRR's "MP229" Motive Power Assignments. If anyone has a copy I will gladly pay for a quality photo copy duplicate plus postage, etc.. >> This would be a great document to see posted to Keystone Crossings!! John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 2:07:04 -0600 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: Dallee Electronics (was GG-1 Sounds) Content-Length: 1835 Date: 03/04/1998 02:03 am (Wednesday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: Dallee Electronics (was GG-1 Sounds) Has anyone on the list had experience with Dallee sound units. A couple of years ago I tried to install one for a friend of mine. The unit never performed as advertised. It made some sounds but not all of the generator, air release, and blow down sounds that the instruction sheet said would be there. The sounds also did not always work when they were supposed to, things like air release when starting the engine from a dead stop. I called Dallee twice and received no help at all in troubleshooting the installation, the attitude was "well, it's supposted to work, guess you did something wrong" and "other people don't have any trouble". I would be interested in other's experiences with Dallee products. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 3/3/98, 06:10pm wrote>>> A few months back I recall someone looking for digital sounds for a GG-1. The April 1998 issue of Model Railroader has an ad for one on page 12. The company is Dallee Electronics (http://www.dallee.com) and the price is $109.95. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: MP229 Motive Power Assignments Date: Wed, 4 Mar 98 06:25:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 787 On 3/3/98 11:13 PM, Da72jmk (Da72jmk@aol.com) wrote: ><< I am looking for a 1952 copy of PRR's "MP229" Motive Power >Assignments. If > anyone has a copy I will gladly pay for a quality photo copy duplicate plus > postage, etc.. >> > >This would be a great document to see posted to Keystone Crossings!! I'll post it if someone can loan me a copy... ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:44:26 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Equipment Roster Reprint Content-Length: 1245 Greetings to Jerry and the group, I have a copy of this publication and posted a review of it to the group about a year ago. It is not a complete list of PRR passanger equipment as mentioned in the MR review or as implied by its title. It seems to be a listing of equipment that was assigned to a particular region. Was it a worthwhile purchase, yes. Is it the "Holy Grail" of PRR info, no. It is just another good reference to have in your library that may fill in some knowledge gaps. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA http://www.personal.psu.edu/drm6 At 08:13 PM 3/3/98 -0400, Jerry wrote: >The PRR Passenger Equipment Roster, Oct. 1, 1954, is available for $20 >plus $3 shipping. > >Anyone see the latter? I may be interested. > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA http://www.personal.psu.edu/drm6 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:17:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Dallee Electronics (was GG-1 Sounds) Content-Length: 5119 >I would be interested in other's experiences with Dallee products. I ordered the Dallee GG-1 and PRR steam (banshee whistle) sound units a few months ago for use with my DCC system. The following are my observations and comparisons with ThrottleUp! Soundtraxx DCC sound decoders. 1) The Dallee units are BIG, and you have to have space for the DCC decoder too! - In order to fit one in an HO scale GG-1, I had to remove one entire side of the drive down to the floor (interesting problem getting doing this in an IHC/Mehano GG1, but that's another story). You might consider making one GG-1 a dummy and permanently coupling it to a powered unit (remember, these units can't pull their own weight, so this could be fun...but I digress!) The steam unit would not fit in anything smaller than a 110 tender, and maybe not then! The Soundtraxx units are smaller, and incorporate a complete DCC decoder. I can fit the newest ones inside the boiler of a mantua 2-6-6-2T (Narrower than most PRR power) and they will fit most PRR tenders 2) The Dallee speakers are a little better than the the Soundtraxx speakers, but Tony Koester reccommended "edge ported PFM" speakers to me, and I concur - mounted in a tender pointed forward, they make the sound come from the locomotive. 3) All of the sounds were there in my Dallee GG-1 unit BUT (and it is a big but!) they only work one at a time - ie if the bell is ringing, no horn, no blowers etc., AND they are a little fussy. Dallee says "you wouldn't hear more than one sound at a time anyway" - Bull! Oh yeah their solution? Add more sound units!!! (at $100 EACH) Soundtraxx chips have all sounds at all times - the chuff runs, with the bell, and the horn etc. Also, these chips have more directly controllable, and automatic functions (syncopation, freddy the fireman shoveling coal, raking the grate, oiling, etc) 4) For PRR, Dallee offers GG-1, K-4, T-1 (special 3 chime whistle), and Freight (banshee) whistles. For PRR, Soundtraxx offers only a K-4 whistle (and rumors indicate that the whistle may not be appropriate - comments?) 5) Cost? Dallee - $100 plus multifunction DCC decoder ($45) = $145 Sountraxx - list $180, discounted to <$140 at Tony's Train Exchange (WARNING! the units I got from Tony's did not come with the full technical manual, which is ESSENTIAL to program all of the neato cool functions! Also, Tony doesn't like the PRR whistle, and really pushed other units - he is the source of my info about its sound. My conclusion? The Soundtraxx system is far superior to Dallee, but offers fewer PRR whistle choices. My Solution? I would urge each one of you out there to call ThrottleUp! (303/465-4435) and ask them to produce the following sounds: GG-1, PRR Freight Whistle, PRR Three chime (T-1) in order to compete with Dallee. The company is friendly and responsive, and if you contact them, they will resond with the sound units we WANT. As it stands now, I will have one plastic GG-1 with Dallee sound (the unit will never fit in my brass electrics), one I-1 (long haul tender) with Dallee sound, and when the new Bowser T-1 is released I will probably equip that with Dallee sound as well. All other steam units will get Soundtraxx K-4 sound. The catch 22 I face is that those electrics I do not equip with sound right away will get DCC decoders, and therefore, Dallee sound units would be the less expensive option for subsequently adding sound, however the units will not fit! PLEASE NOTE: You can always put the Dallee units in a car trailing the locomotive (with the speaker in the loco). I thought VERY seriously about this in cases where I will have made up passenger trains which do not change consists, but I would really prefer to have more flexibility than permanently coupling headend cars to the loco. This is especially true as, to add operational interest, my passenger trains will have "work to do" as they pass through the layout - adding and dropping headend cars! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:25:06 EST Subject: Re: Class PL85 / BL85 Content-Length: 842 In a message dated 98-03-04 09:05:13 EST, Jerry writes: << Not sure if this was a PL85 or BL85, but it's an 85' lightweight baggage/lounge car. Was used on the post-war Liberty Limited. Anyone have elevations and plans for this guy? Who built it? >> Didn't get any attached image with your message, but the July 1951 consist of Liberty Limited included a PLB85. For some reason, the similar cars on the Jeffersonian and Trailblazer were listed as BLB85R--don't know what the R means. Basic dimensions on page 47 of Wayner book PRR Passenger & Freight Car Diagrams. Doesn't give builder. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re:Plans for a Standard PRR Privey Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:26:31 -0500 Content-Length: 1092 Steve: I remember it well. They could have changed the name from NMRA to NSA (National Scatological Society). The Standard Plan probably has a keystone rather than a quarter moon vent cut into the door. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------- On 3-4-98, Steve Bartlett Wrote > Gentlemen, > > If you can go back to NMRA Bulletins from the 1960's, that organization > was virtually polarized, almost to the point of secession, by a long and > bitter series of articles and letters as to whether outhouses, and the > modeling thereof, were a fit subject for the "Bulletin." As I recall, > it was sparked by one member's construction article and another's letter > of condemnation. > > Tolerance was not the byword of the day. > > Steve Bartlett > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 98 14:14:43 CST Subject: Princeton Content-Length: 1898 Hi, all, Just got back from a conference in Princeton, NJ during which I managed to squeeze in a bit of railfanning. Rode the Dinky train from Princeton to Princeton Jct. and back - not bad railfanning for $2.50. The down side for me was how little of the original PRR was still in evidence. The cantenary poles and all are still PRR but I was half-hoping some PRR buildings still stood at the junction. No such luck - it's all ultra-modern concrete. NASSAU tower still stood but as best I can tell, the interlockings it once controlled have been removed. The most PRR thing in sight were the position light signals but even these have had the center light removed and are colored now - but hey, they're still position lights. The best part was the hour I spent just watching trains at the junction. The track is dead straight here and when an AMTRAK comes through, WOW! I'd forgotten what a sight it is to see a train probably going over 100 mph. I caught about 8 trains in one hour - even three at one time! Where else can you do that? The PRR may be hard to spot today but the plant they built is still awesome. Another first - call me old-fashioned but I've never had my ticket lifted on a train before by a guy with pierced body parts. I was also surprised to see how steep the grade up into Princeton is. It's about 2.5%! Not too many places left today where you can ride scheduled service over that sort of grade. A thought - is this the shortest scheduled train service in the US today? PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Equipment Roster Reprint Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:04:09 -0500 Content-Length: 1281 > The April 1998 issue of Model Railroader, beginning on page 42, in the > "Railroader's Library" section, indicates that Wahsatch Backshop (763 > Montclair Drive, No. 9, Claymont, DE 19703-3608) has reprinted two PRR > documents: > > The PRR Book of Rules, Sept. 30, 1951, is available for $8 plus $2 > shipping. > > The PRR Passenger Equipment Roster, Oct. 1, 1954, is available for $20 > plus $3 shipping. > > Anyone see the latter? I may be interested. I purchased a copy at a Phila. Chapter meeting about a year ago. The book is an excellent resource for anyone interested PRR passenger equipment. It lists equipment by road number, type, class #, type of A/C, type of seats, seating capacity, and truck class. It also lists baggage, mail, and express cars including all the express X29's and N5's along with truck types assigned to each car number. The book is not a reprint of the original but has been enhanced with the truck assignment information. IMO the book is well worth the price. Steve Sejda (srsejda@jaguarsystems.com) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:31:37 -0600 From: Jeff Olsenholler Subject: Chrysler plant, Twinsburg OH, was HO scale PRR signals? Content-Length: 1567 > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:55:42 -0500 (EST) > From: Derrick J Brashear > Subject: HO scale PRR signals? > Content-Length: 1692 > > In other "news" I had the pleasure this past Monday of following the old > Fort Wayne west from East Palestine (where my previous jaunt left off) to > Alliance, and then heading north toward Cleveland, where we visited the > tower at Berea (because my friend, who was driving, wanted to see it and > get some pix... but it was dark by then). > > On the way back we skirted the south of Cleveland and while randomly > picking roads which looked like they paralleled the tracks we went through > a scene i recognized: the lead to the Chrysler stamping plant at Twinsburg > as seen in one of the Pennsy Diesel Years books > My father-in-law worked that plant for the last years of his life. Can anyone tell me which of the Pennsy Diesel Years books has that photograph? Also, can someone recommend some books or other resources that cover the Lake Division from ~1950 through Conrail? Thanks, -- Jeff Olsenholler Manager, Remote Sensing Applications Lab jolsenho@rsal.unomaha.edu Department of Geography and Geology (402) 554-2725 (voice) University Of Nebraska - Omaha (402) 554-3518 (fax) Omaha, NE 68182-0199 http://rsal.unomaha.edu/local.html ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:44:05 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: PRR Whistles (was GG-1 sound) Content-Length: 2742 >My Solution? I would urge each one of you out there to call ThrottleUp! >(303/465-4435) and ask them to produce the following sounds: GG-1, PRR >Freight Whistle, PRR Three chime (T-1) in order to compete with Dallee. I just called and that number has been disconnected - try 970-259-0690 instead. Now some GREAT NEWS!!! I spoke with the Soundtraxx people a few minutes ago, and they are doing the following: 1) PRR GG-1 for release this summer! 2) PRR steam power - they are working on re-doing the current K-4 (they don't like it all that much apparently), releasing a banshee version, a K-5, and even a T-1 whistle. They base their releases on two factors 1) Customer requests - CALL THEM 2) Available sounds. Here's the biggest problem - their preference is to digitally record the whistle, with the cooperation of the engineer to get the full dynamic range of sounds. Its even better when there are NO other sounds (pumps etc). Thus, they are hoping to be able to record the K-4 whistle from the loco currently at Steamtown (although cooperation is apparently not great - if any of you are connected up there PLEASE help them!). Soundtraxx will use analog recordings if they must, so if any of you have really good quality sounds - let them know! The preference of Soundtraxx is to record PURE whistle sounds - a whistle hooked up to ANY air/steam source will do! Does anyone on this list have, or have access to PRR whistles? What about the whistles in the collection at the RR Museum of PA in Strasburg? Could they be "borrowed" on site for something like this? BTW, Tony's Train Exchange is found at: http://www.ttx-dcc.com Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:35:58 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re:Plans for a Standard PRR Privey Content-Length: 918 >I remember it well. They could have changed the name from NMRA to NSA >(National Scatological Society). > >The Standard Plan probably has a keystone rather than a quarter moon vent >cut into the door. > >Carl P. Izzo ===== Indeed: they really got bent out of shape. If they had changed the name, what would their new logo have been (rhetorical question)? Perhaps "Corncobs rampant over a crescent moon?" Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:35:55 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Class PL85 / BL85 Content-Length: 1473 Bob Zoller notes: >Didn't get any attached image with your message, but the July 1951 consist of >Liberty Limited included a PLB85. For some reason, the similar cars on the >Jeffersonian and Trailblazer were listed as BLB85R--don't know what the R >means. >Basic dimensions on page 47 of Wayner book PRR Passenger & Freight Car >Diagrams. Doesn't give builder. ===== The "R" stands for air conditioned. This was added when PRR started A/C installations in the 30s, and was discontinued late 1951 when the entire fleet was effectively equipped (kind of like the "s" on superheated steamers). The "R" designation continued to appear sporadically for years afterward, which is probably why one train was so noted and the others weren't. My set of PRR equipment diagrams shows the PLB85R "Passenger Lounge Baggage 85' A/C" but doesn't give the builder or date. I suspect, based on how it is presented in my diagrams, that it may be an ACF postwar car. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:41:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: Dallee Electronics (was GG-1 Sounds) Content-Length: 1295 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: They base their releases on two factors 1) Customer requests - CALL THEM 2) Available sounds. Here's the biggest problem - their preference is to digitally record the whistle, with the cooperation of the engineer to get the full dynamic range of sounds. Its even better when there are NO other sounds (pumps etc). I put in a call and requested I-1 sounds. Told them I am superdetailing two of them. When I told the lady what I wanted she laughed; apparently Bruce's post has prompted a number of requests. I also suggested what I proposed on this list some time ago. I told her about the PRRT&HS CD set and suggested they contact the Society about using the sounds and sharing the profits. She said they would check into it. Keep your fingers crossed. I suspect that is the only way some of the sounds will get into electronic form. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:37:38 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: Dallee Electronics (was GG-1 Sounds) Content-Length: 1931 Don- Interesting conversation I'm watching about these sounds. It'll be a while before I reach the sound installation stage. But, FYI, I believe the sounds on the PRR T&HS CD were originally recorded by John Prophet, a name that should be familiar to many SPF's. Cheers, Jim On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Donald E. Harper, Jr. wrote: > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > > > They base their releases on two factors > 1) Customer requests - CALL THEM > 2) Available sounds. Here's the biggest problem - their preference is to > digitally record the whistle, with the cooperation of the engineer to get > the full dynamic range of sounds. Its even better when there are NO other > sounds (pumps etc). > > > I put in a call and requested I-1 sounds. Told them I am superdetailing two of > them. When I told the lady what I wanted she laughed; apparently Bruce's post > has prompted a number of requests. > > I also suggested what I proposed on this list some time ago. I told her about > the PRRT&HS CD set and suggested they contact the Society about using the sounds > and sharing the profits. She said they would check into it. Keep your fingers > crossed. I suspect that is the only way some of the sounds will get into > electronic form. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:39:11 EST Subject: Re: Princeton Content-Length: 473 In a message dated 98-03-04 13:15:11 EST, George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: > is this the shortest scheduled train service in the US today? > I believe so, unless you count subways. The Times Square-Grand Central line would be shorter. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jim Clay Subject: DCC Questions Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:22:08 -0500 Content-Length: 718 Is there anyone on this list who has some experience with DCC and would be willing to answer questions from a novice trying to wire a small layout. My questions mainly concern the wiring of reverse loops and the best way to handle these situations from a DCC perspective. Please respond to me directly as this topic does not really pertain to the PRR and probably shouldn't be discussed within this list. Thanks in advance for your help. Jim Clay Mechanicsburg, PA jclay@paonline.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:50:04 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: shortest scheduled service Content-Length: 1012 >In a message dated 98-03-04 13:15:11 EST, George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: > >> is this the shortest scheduled train service in the US today? >> >I believe so, unless you count subways. The Times Square-Grand >Central line would be shorter. > >Rich Copeland ===== Well how about intercity service? For instance, there is the Penn Station to Sunnyside run (NYC to New Jersey). I doubt if many passengers get off there, but there is likely still a fair amount of express. Or could I be mistaken? Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Princeton From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:04:39 EST Content-Length: 2963 Did you find the three mile marker in Blair Court? 1. Yes, it is the shortest scheduled service. 2. Crossovers were removed 12 or so years ago except for the one trailing point to the branch. Nassau was remoted to Midway [Monmouth Junction] which was then remoted to Fair [Trenton] MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Wed, 4 Mar 98 14:14:43 CST George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) writes: >Hi, all, > >Just got back from a conference in Princeton, NJ during which I managed to >squeeze in a bit of railfanning. Rode the Dinky train from Princeton to >Princeton Jct. and back - not bad railfanning for $2.50. The down side for >me was how little of the original PRR was still in evidence. The cantenary >poles and all are still PRR but I was half-hoping some PRR buildings >still stood at the junction. No such luck - it's all ultra-modern concrete. >NASSAU tower still stood but as best I can tell, the interlockings it >once controlled have been removed. The most PRR thing in sight were >the position light signals but even these have had the center light removed and >are colored now - but hey, they're still position lights. > >The best part was the hour I spent just watching trains at the junction. >The track is dead straight here and when an AMTRAK comes through, WOW! > I'd forgotten what a sight it is to see a train probably going over 100 >mph. I caught about 8 trains in one hour - even three at one time! Where >else can you do that? The PRR may be hard to spot today but the plant they >built is still awesome. > >Another first - call me old-fashioned but I've never had my ticket >lifted on a train before by a guy with pierced body parts. I was also >surprised to see how steep the grade up into Princeton is. It's about 2.5%! >Not too many places left today where you can ride scheduled service over that >sort of grade. > >A thought - is this the shortest scheduled train service in the US today? > >PRR forever! > >Sincerely, > >George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu >Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: shortest scheduled service From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:57:03 EST Content-Length: 2015 I checked a couple of ETTs to confirm this and, while there is a slight variance over the years, from Princeton Jct to the current Princeton Statation is 2.7 and has never exceeded 2.8 wile from NYP to Sunnyside varies from 3.0 to 3.7 MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:50:04 -0600 rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) writes: >>In a message dated 98-03-04 13:15:11 EST, George.Pierson@trnty.edu >writes: >> >>> is this the shortest scheduled train service in the US today? >>> >>I believe so, unless you count subways. The Times Square-Grand >>Central line would be shorter. >> >>Rich Copeland > >===== > >Well how about intercity service? For instance, there is the Penn >Station >to Sunnyside run (NYC to New Jersey). I doubt if many passengers get >off >there, but there is likely still a fair amount of express. Or could >I be >mistaken? > >Bob > > >Robert A. Boyd >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > >========================================================== > >"The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com >The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:41:18 EST Subject: Re: Class PL85 / BL85 Content-Length: 447 In a message dated 98-03-04 11:30:15 EST, I wrote : << For some reason, the similar cars on the Jeffersonian and Trailblazer were listed as BLB85R--don't know what the R means. >> Typo. Should have read PLB85R. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:22:41 EST Subject: P2K E7 Content-Length: 624 OK, here is a "duh" question. These units run smooth as glass on DCC, but what in the heck is the white background around the cab entrance steps? I have seen one or two F units which look to be light colored there (sheet metal protection added?) I have seen protective paper there during painting and delivery. "But I have never seen an elephant fly", or an E7 with this. Any help out there? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Mar 98 09:28:33 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Princeton area towers Content-Length: 595 >2. Crossovers were removed 12 or so years ago except for the one trailing >point to the branch. Nassau was remoted to Midway [Monmouth Junction] >which was then remoted to Fair [Trenton] > >MEA I thought the corridor was completely controlled by a centralized location (Philadelphia? D.C.?). But this is modern stuff, and this isn't an Amtrak list... -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:30:27 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: PRR Whistles (was GG-1 sound) Content-Length: 1341 Greetings to the group, One person who has or has access to many of the PRR whistles is Roger Granlund. He puts together the anual whistle blow here in Altoona. This event features whistles, horns and sirens of all types. Ever hear a WWII destroyer steam siren up close? Anyway Roger works here at Penn State, though I think he may have retired this year. His son works here at Altoona with me so he should be rather easy to contact. Roger will be part of Penn State Altoona's "1998 Railroad Heritage Conference, The Railroad in American Life." He will be doing a presentation on whistles and bringing many to actually operate. He uses compressed air. >From what I understand, whistles will sound different with compressed compared to the way they would sound with steam. Has something to do with density, condenstation and warm whistle verses cold. If the sound module companies are serious about recording the actual sounds from the real whistles, Roger would be the guy to talk to. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA http://www.personal.psu.edu Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA http://www.personal.psu.edu/drm6 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:42:29 EST Subject: Re: Class PL85 / BL85 Content-Length: 730 In a message dated 98-03-05 09:22:28 EST, Bob Boyd wrote: << I believe they may have had a square end obs after the war, but I am not sure. >> The POC85 (POC85AR in the Wayner book?) listed in the 1950 consist of the Trailblazer does appear to be squareend, replacing the round-end POC70 sometime after the war. Getting back to the PLB85, you deduce that ACF might be the builder. The P85BR coaches were built by PRR and ACF, so I would agree that ACF seems like a good starting point. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Everyone's a PRR modeller Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:00:17 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 661 We've seen this going around in various mailing lists, because you see PRR boxcars *everywhere* in photos, but this one struck me just yesterday: in the new "Model Railroad Planning", topleft on page 50, there's a shot of an SP 70-tonner, at Myrtle Point, Oregon (ie, middle of bloody nowhere), and you see a sliver of a shadow keystone on the first car it's pulling. It might even be an X29, since it's no taller than the switcher. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Class PLB85 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 11:17:09 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 956 On 3/5/98 10:42 AM, Bobspf (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Getting back to the PLB85, you deduce that ACF might be the builder. The >P85BR coaches were built by PRR and ACF, so I would agree that ACF seems >like >a good starting point. I did find an elevation and floor plan for the PLB85. Unfortunately, it doesn't reveal the builder. However, PRR or ACF does sound logical. There's no evidence of fluting on the sides or roof, so it probably was not Budd. Anyway, I now have what I need to have sides made up by Union Station Products. 8-) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Carey Subject: Marginally PRR-related question Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:29:39 -0700 Content-Length: 392 Are the Rivarossi-AHM-IHC heavyweight coaches and heavyweight combines based on prototypes or are they the figment of a modelmaker's fertile imagination? The world wants to know. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: P2K E7 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:31:41 -0500 Content-Length: 848 > OK, here is a "duh" question.... butwhat in the heck is the white > background around the cab entrance steps? I don't have one handy, but it may be P2K's rendition of the stainless steel, or aluminum kick plate that most (but not all) RR's specified for the side steps/ladders, and at the bottom of the door. I've seen these on in service units in bright pristine metal, as well as painted over, and various stages in between. A stainless or aluminum kick plate with a brushed finish can appear close to white. Hey! Good a guess as any! Andrew Harmantas, SPF, waiting to see the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: FS: HO Brass - Eastern Steam Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:39:23 -0500 Content-Length: 672 Empire Midland NYNH&H "800" 4-6-0. Mint in original box. Missing 1 side rod screw but has all rods. $250 GEM PRR 0-8-0. NOB $300 Alco/Kobra PRR N2sa 2-10-2. Original box, painted but some brass showing in spots. $350 NPP NYO&W 4-6-0 camelback. Original box, factory painted but a couple of bare spots. Missing one rod pin but has all rods. $235 Shipping is additional. Bill Gripp wgripp@prius.jnj.com (908) 429-6118 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:31:34 -0500 From: Stan Feldman Subject: N.Y.'s Penn Station To Be Revamped Content-Length: 2318 By RONALD POWERS WASHINGTON - Boosters of the long-running effort to convert the old Farley Post Office on Manhattan's West Side into a new Pennsylvania Station cleared a final hurdle Wednesday when the Postal Service agreed to give up much of the building. ``I am happy to announce that an accord has been reached on Penn Station and plans to restore the James Farley Post Office Building are now under way,'' President Clinton said. Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, D-N.Y., for the last six years has been working to reclaim some of the city's grace that vanished when the original landmark Penn Station was demolished more than three decades ago. ``There's more than a train station involved; it's a rebirth,'' Moynihan said in an interview. ``I didn't know whether it was ever going to happen.'' It was not immediately clear how much of the huge building - which stretches between Eighth and Ninth avenues - the Postal Service will give up, but Moynihan said it will be a significant amount. Much of the mail sorting and other operations done in the building will be relocated elsewhere in the city. The cost of the project is budgeted at $315 million, and construction on the renovations will begin shortly. The centerpiece of the new station, which will house Amtrak and other rail connections, will be the huge central court under a skylight. It is now a workspace for letter carriers, but will one day be a grand public hall leading to train platforms. ``The concourse will be up and running in five years time,'' Moynihan predicted. The original Penn Station was built in 1910 and was demolished in 1963 to make room for a sleek office tower and Madison Square Garden. *********************************************************** STAN'S RAILPIX-- Railroad Photo Gallery ! http://www.trainweb.com/railpix ****************************************************** Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: FS: Atlas HO PC SD35s Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:10:00 -0500 Content-Length: 373 Atlas HO scale SD35s, PC factory paint, mint condition original box. 2 @ $65 each plus shipping. Bill Gripp wgripp@prius.jnj.com (908) 429-6118 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:27:35 -0500 From: Charlie Weber Subject: Re: shortest scheduled service Content-Length: 2604 I believe Sunnyside was only a yard facility & did not have a station. No passengers to or from Sunnyside> Charlie -----Original Message----- From: Michael E. Allen To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:31 PM Subject: Re: shortest scheduled service >I checked a couple of ETTs to confirm this and, while there is a slight >variance over the years, from Princeton Jct to the current Princeton >Statation is 2.7 and has never exceeded 2.8 wile from NYP to Sunnyside >varies from 3.0 to 3.7 > >MEA >______________________________ >PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com >Management Services Telephone >609-683-0356 > >On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:50:04 -0600 rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) >writes: >>>In a message dated 98-03-04 13:15:11 EST, George.Pierson@trnty.edu >>writes: >>> >>>> is this the shortest scheduled train service in the US today? >>>> >>>I believe so, unless you count subways. The Times Square-Grand >>>Central line would be shorter. >>> >>>Rich Copeland >> >>===== >> >>Well how about intercity service? For instance, there is the Penn >>Station >>to Sunnyside run (NYC to New Jersey). I doubt if many passengers get >>off >>there, but there is likely still a fair amount of express. Or could >>I be >>mistaken? >> >>Bob >> >> >>Robert A. Boyd >>Those Classic Trains >>"Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." >> >>========================================================== >> >>"The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com >>The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >>"listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Marginally PRR-related question From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 15:46:19 -0500 Content-Length: 928 The Rivarossi-AHM-IHC heavyweight coach is (I think)a SOO Line prototype (or some other obsure choice). The Combine is ATSF. In any event neither is PRR. If you want PRR heavyweights, stick to the Bachman cars or the Eastern Car works kits. They are all PRR prototype. regards, Andy Miller - ---------------- Are the Rivarossi-AHM-IHC heavyweight coaches and heavyweight combines based on prototypes or are they the figment of a modelmaker's fertile imagination? The world wants to know. - ------------------------------------------------------------ For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New mailing list: PRR2000 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 15:58:22 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1768 Announcing a new mailing list: On 2/17/98 7:36 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: >"PRR2000" >"This is a email talk group to discuss and promote the idea of 'What if >the Pennsylvania Railroad never was merged with New York Central.' We >are working on the promulgation of the PRR and how it would have evolved >into a modern day Class 1." This is run from my server, but having "theoretical" conversations on another list will keep the peace on "PRR-Talk". A digest is available, so those with only a casual interest, I suggest you subscribe to the digest version. It will also help the server out. "PRR-Talk" will continue to address prototype and modeling concerns relative to the REAL Pennsy, which died an aweful death. The exception would be comments about current status of former right-of-way and equipment, etc. Thank you. To subscribe, send "subscribe prr2000" to "listserv@dsop.com". For the digest, send "subscribe digest prr2000" to "listserv@dsop.com". For a complete command list, send "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". I'm pleased to report that in a week or so I will have a searchable archive of all lists from this server going back to August 1997. A few have already taken the opportunity to "beta test" the system which has, in fact, been online for several days. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Change to DIGEST mode Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 16:04:05 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 778 For those of you receiving the digest mode of the lists, they now still cut once a day...except when they get over 32K in size. For compatability with some e-mail programs which cannot handle messages that large (they cut them to an inconvenient attachment), digests will also cut when they reach 32K and a new digest will begin. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:31:39 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Class PL85 / BL85 Content-Length: 1457 Bob Zoeller comments: >The POC85 (POC85AR in the Wayner book?) listed in the 1950 consist of the >Trailblazer does appear to be square end, replacing the round-end POC70 >sometime after the war. This is one book that, unfortunatly, I don't have in the reference library. Would anyone have one they would be willing to sell? While I am at it, I am also looking for volumes 3 and 4 of the P-S Library "red books" (Yes, I know asking a SPF to sell a Pennsy book is like asking them to sell their kids - in fact, some would prefer to sell the kids). >Getting back to the PLB85, you deduce that ACF might be the builder. The >P85BR coaches were built by PRR and ACF, so I would agree that ACF seems like >a good starting point. That's the problem with the limited existing records, such as equipment diagram sets; they don't always tell you the essential stuff like builder, Plan#, rebuilds, truck type, A/C type, etc. etc. Regards to all, Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:16:59 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Marginally PRR-related question Content-Length: 1552 David Carey wrote: > > Are the Rivarossi-AHM-IHC heavyweight coaches and heavyweight > combines based on prototypes or are they the figment of a modelmaker's > fertile imagination? The world wants to know. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". David, I bellieve most of the heavyweight cars were based on ATSF and Pullman designs. The coach is an older vintage design, formerly wood sheathed that was resheathed in steel with a newer style underframe to get rid of the truss rods--note the hold-over arched window frames. I'm sure there were also some liberties taken in making the model, so I can't speak for the overall accuracy. If you look closely at the RPO under the heading of the 1930's smoothside cars, you'll find it's not smoothside at all. In fact, the body is a PRR class BM70NB, modernized with an arch roof. You can very easily backdate this by replacing the newer 4-wheel trucks with 6-wheel heavyweight trucks and swapping out the 72' heavyweight coach roof (you have to do some minor modifications to make the "glass" fit down in the corners, but that's about all), then add any other details. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:15:13 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: short runs Content-Length: 1100 hi folks... Was looking at my old 1957 philly ETT and found this.... train no. 702.....three stops....starts at Arsenal(6:14 am) then 30th st. (6:17 am) then ends at Suburban station(6:20 am) distance.....2.1 miles(from ETT) other trains were nos.701,703,705 etc. from suburban (theres a lot of them) 770,794, etc. were to suburban (also a lot of them) needless to say these and others were the well known MU shuttles. then theres these.... train no. 455...three stops...starts at 30th st. lower level(12:15 am) then Arsenal(12:19 am) then ends at Brill(12:22 am) distance....3.2 miles other trains were Nos. 409,401, from 30th st. 454, to 30th st. Best i remember more than two runs were made by the crews... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:16:40 EST Subject: MP229 Content-Length: 516 I would like to see a large listing of MP229's so that all of us could see what engines were assigned to a particular area on a given date. I would be happy to send in what I have so that others could view it. I have numerous years from the Monongahela Division. What do you think ? Andy Sentipal ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Shark option, opinions wanted... Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:53:02 -0500 Content-Length: 1975 Hello all, Since many of you here in the talk group have helped to provide info and ideas regarding our BP-20 project, I want to poll you all for your opinion on the following; We have been looking at sound systems, and have decided that if we were to offer this option, we would probably go with SoundTraxx unit (which includes a DCC decoder and lighting functions in one unit). We are thinking of offering this option only in the A-B-A set-up, with the B unit containing the sound board/ speaker, instead of motor. The estimated option cost would be around $ 170.00 added to the basic Dummy B unit price (TBA). Yes, it is spendy, but considering that the retail list of the sound unit is around $ 180.00 and the fact that it includes installation right from the shop, we felt that those who desire a sound unit on board and running in a DCC environment might like this idea. I'm interested to see what you folks think. Bear in mind, that the B unit will still be available as powered or dummy, without all the 'bells and whistles', and the A units will be available with DCC ready boards for your own decoder. Non sound units would still run in standard DC mode. The bottom line, is that in order to consider adding the sound unit to the option list, we need to know if enough people would buy them equipped this way before we commit to investing the time and money to offer it. Please remember that we are not Atlas or Kato, and cannot just throw our money around without making informed decisions ! :) I appreciate your feedback on this item, and hope you don't mind the use of this forum. You folks are the SPF's, and are the main people interested in this project. Thank you, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: short runs Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:54:44 -0500 Content-Length: 1380 Hank: Mummert wrote: > Was looking at my old 1957 philly ETT and found this.... > > train no. 702.....three stops....starts at Arsenal(6:14 am) then 30th st. > (6:17 am) then ends at Suburban station(6:20 am) > distance.....2.1 miles(from ETT) > > other trains were nos.701,703,705 etc. from suburban (theres a lot of them) > 770,794, etc. were to suburban (also a lot of them) > needless to say these and others were the well known MU shuttles. > > then theres these.... > train no. 455...three stops...starts at 30th st. lower level(12:15 am) > then Arsenal(12:19 am) then ends at Brill(12:22 am) > distance....3.2 miles > > other trains were Nos. 409,401, from 30th st. > 454, to 30th st. Princeton still holds the modern record. The 700 series ran as Media locals, making a right turn at Arsenel. The 400 series were Delmarva trains and in later years, some Philadephia-Washington and Chesapeake Region commuter trains. They, too, fell off the Philadelphia Region globe at Brill which was just north of the Division/Region Post Made Complete Richard F. Makse Twinney Pond Associates maxrail@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Princeton area towers From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 01:32:46 EST Content-Length: 1650 I should have put three dots [...] there, I wasn't doing a complete genesis of the interlocking. As of the last time I paid attention - The crossover is electric locked and hand thrown with the lock [and permission to throw] coming from CTEC 7. The tower itself is used by signal maintenance and ET personnel. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On 05 Mar 98 09:28:33 -0500 Doug Drew writes: >>2. Crossovers were removed 12 or so years ago except for the one >trailing >>point to the branch. Nassau was remoted to Midway [Monmouth >Junction] >>which was then remoted to Fair [Trenton] >> >>MEA > >I thought the corridor was completely controlled by a centralized >location (Philadelphia? D.C.?). But this is modern stuff, and this >isn't an >Amtrak list... >-- Doug Drew > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:45:25 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: Princeton Content-Length: 1971 If you think the Amtrak action is impressive today, you should have been around when it was still low platforms and bolted rail. Even with good maintenance, you could hear those heavyweight trains clear up at my grandparent's house about a mile away. The track noise was like a dull roar, with a occasional "bump" as they hit the crossovers. One of my earliest memories is of taking my grandmother to the Junction to catch a train to Trenton during WWII. I really believe I saw a streamlined K4, my recollection is something with a rounded front end and recessed headlight and it made an awful lot of noise as it came in ! With equipment fully utilized for the war effort, it wouldn't have been strange for steam to be running under the wires, even a streamlined K4 on a local ! I very clearly recall when the branch was still double track, although I think they ran bi-directional and only used the second track for football specials. There was a yard area with several tracks on the east side of the station at Princeton, and passengers had about a 1/4 mile walk to Palmer Stadium. A university building now occupies the yard site. There also used to be a flag stop at "Penns Neck". It was a short platform and open shelter located on the south side of the Route 1 overpass. At the Junction, there was a "wye" track forming a westbound connection, of which the current track through the parking lot was the eastern leg. The western parking lot was just a wooded area then. My mother, now 84, says that she remembered the dinky was very noisy and gave off unpleasant odors. May have been a (gasolene-burning ?) doodlebug prior to electrification. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 22:12 05-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:58:37 EST Subject: Re: Shark option, opinions wanted... Content-Length: 529 Joe, Do not over burden your product with to many options. What I want to buy is an accurate representation of BP-20's at an affordable price. I do not have any of my locomotives equiped with DCC, but the plugs are there. Please keep it simple and affordable. Watching from LINES way out WEST Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: ListServ Upgrade Opportunity Date: Fri, 6 Mar 98 08:08:07 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2669 The folks who make my ListServ software ("LetterRip") just came out with a "Pro" version. Through the end of March, I can upgrade to this Pro version for $99. Afterwards it would be $145. Personally, I do not see the need for it and do not plan to upgrade unless the list populace wants the new features. I am currently bringing a second server online at my site which will improve performance. Right on its heels is a database server that the PRRMO list subscribers have already tried out. All of the mailing lists are now archived and searchable going back to last August. (The links will be announced to everyone once the second machine is online, perhaps this weekend.) Once the database is made public, many searchable databanks will become available. Immediately will be the complete diesel roster, as well as a cabin car roster. Shortly thereafter I will add electric locos, steam locos, passenger cars, and magazine bibliographies. Wow! I have put off the increase in bandwidth temporarily...but it will happen. The reason is a new technology called DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) that offers amazing throughput through existing telephone lines. These services are coming into my area during the next few months. I want to see how they pan out before investing in ISDN or fractional T1. Anyway, back to the list serv...here is an abridged list of the new features, with my comments: >- Separate list administrators This would be beneficial to the PRR2000 list people, as currently I must be the Admin. >- Message subjects can be prefixed (for example, [ANN], [Humor], etc.) Many of you have asked for this for some time! >- Any message header can be added or modified >- Enhanced control over which messages can be posted to a list I "may" be able to supress those nasty MIME messages with enclosures! >- Enhanced control over who can post to a list Since I do not feel the need to upgrade, my reason for posting is this: I have received voluntary donations in the past. If enough people are passionate about these features and would like to see them, they can send in a donation earmarked for the "LetterRip Upgrade". See http://prr.dsop.com/support.html for payment info. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 06 Mar 98 08:59:42 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: FWD: The Model Train Magazine Database is back online Content-Length: 2005 Thought I would share this posting with the list, for those who weren't aware of it, or aware that it had moved (it was off-line for a while, changing servers). This is a useful, on-line searchable database of most of the major model mags, and it's getting better all the time. Must have been a lot of work to set up. Note, the articles themselves are not on the database -- just the subject matter is indexed, with references to the particular issue(s). I have no connection with Accurail, except in buying their products. -- Doug Drew -------------------------------------- Date: 3/5/98 8:53 PM From: Jeff Scherb The Model Train Magazine Database is back online. You can find it at http://www.accurail.com Since the last update we moved from hosting at plannetarium.com to hosting provided by Accurail. Please let the folks at Accurail know you appreciate their support of this service. mailto:accurail@elnet.com Over 16,300 articles from american model railroad magazines are now indexed. March 1, 1998 updates include: - Big thanks to Richard Beckwith for providing a spreadsheet containing indexes to most of the issues of Mainline Modeler - these index entries have been included in this update. - Jack Hune sent me a load of magazines that were duplicates in his collection - these issues have been added to the index. - Paul Clayton faxed me the table of contents pages for a bunch of RMC issues from the fifties that I didn't have; these index entries are now included in the database. - Additional improvements to the query parser to offer better link to alternate search suggestions when the search criteria entered do not return any articles. - Additional keywords and synonyms for many keywords. Enjoy. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Rivarossi RPO (was Marginally PRR-related question) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 98 09:33:46 -0500 Content-Length: 1742 David Carey wrote: > > Are the Rivarossi-AHM-IHC heavyweight coaches and heavyweight > combines based on prototypes or are they the figment of a modelmaker's > fertile imagination? The world wants to know. > - ------ David, I bellieve most of the heavyweight cars were based on ATSF and Pullman designs. The coach is an older vintage design, formerly wood sheathed that was resheathed in steel with a newer style underframe to get rid of the truss rods--note the hold-over arched window frames. I'm sure there were also some liberties taken in making the model, so I can't speak for the overall accuracy. If you look closely at the RPO under the heading of the 1930's smoothside cars, you'll find it's not smoothside at all. In fact, the body is a PRR class BM70NB, modernized with an arch roof. You can very easily backdate this by replacing the newer 4-wheel trucks with 6-wheel heavyweight trucks and swapping out the 72' heavyweight coach roof (you have to do some minor modifications to make the "glass" fit down in the corners, but that's about all), then add any other details. Charlie Fox - -------- Charlie (and anyone else interested), In addition to changing out the trucks, I've also had good luck replacing the windows with Grant Line Narrow Gauge windows and replaced the roof with a higher turtle back roof. It makes a very credible pre-air-conditioned BM70m. These were probably the most numerous class of RPO on the post-war PRR. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:07:37 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Shark option, opinions wanted... Content-Length: 3585 Joe, >We have been looking at sound systems, and have decided that if we were to >offer this option, we would probably go with SoundTraxx unit (which >includes a DCC decoder and lighting functions in one unit) I'm sounding like a broken record, BUT Sountraxx is definitely the way to go. Which of their diesels would be the best? Are they producing any baldwin sounds? >We are thinking >of offering this option only in the A-B-A set-up, with the B unit >containing the sound board/ speaker, instead of motor. This is completely unneccesary, although not a bad idea. Unless you've completely filled the body of the A units, the Soundtraxx decoder and speakers should easily fit in a powered unit. Even if you put the decoder in a unpowered B, you should put the speakers in each unit. A second problem with your idea is the limited amperage of the Soundtraxx chips. I find it very unlikely that one will handle the amps needed for two powered A units. Secondly, one decoder for three units really kills the flexibility! You would be required to keep these units semipermanently coupled. if you do use B units to house the decoders, you will need wires going to the A unit for control of the lights, and power, and perhaps electrical pickup, so adding speaker wires won't add more difficulty (MU hoses! or through the diaphragms). Please connect these leads with quick disconnect plugs so that the A and B units can easily be seperated for maintainence at the bench. Finally, if you offer installation in both A and B units, you will sell a lot more sound decoders! >The estimated option cost would be around $ 170.00 added to the basic >Dummy B unit price(TBA). My preference? Make sure that your powered units have completely insulated motors for ease of DCC installation, and offer "custom Sountraxx installation" as an option for both A and B units. Certainly, $170 for an installed Soundtraxx decoder is a good, competitive price. My bottom line is that I will probably be buying these locomotives as kits anyway, so I will install my own Sountraxx chips. My installation would be A (sountraxx equipped) - B (dummy, with speaker from A) - A (soundtraxx equipped). The B unit would have plugs at each end for the speaker wires and each A would have a set of plugs to connect to the B. These units could then be used as single A units, A-B sets with either A or as an A-B-A consist (an easy MU on my digitrax system - including appropraite headlight control) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:34:53 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Shark options, a manufacturers input Content-Length: 2874 Hello all, I have been following the discussion about the passenger Shark models and, looking at it from the point of view of my own marketing research and strategy, I would suggest this: ===== * Produce an undec version. This model is a distinctive and handsome brute and you will have a fair amount of sales to freelancers and closet stuffers. Use a steel gray plastic for the carbody, instead of black. This is a sore point with people I have talked to. * Produce them in batch lots of different numbers and paint schemes. That way, everyone can find the particular striping they want and the roster builders can find the various numbers. * Produce a basic A and a basic B unit (powered and unpowered each). These should have provison for wire handrails, etc., and the mounting holes for the Soundtraxx speakers and board (a minor cost of tooling). However, these goodies should not be included in the basic units. * Produce an upgrade kit with wire handrails, a sprue of detail options, train phone antennas, etc. * Produce an A and a B unit (powered and dummy) with Soundtraxx. If you have to limit it to a dummy, focus on a B unit. * Produce a top of the line A-B-A set, with perminent coupling drawbars and the Soundtraxx setup. Toss in a constant lighting set and a DCC controller too. This would be a "deluxe" edition (limited batch, say, once a year- each years run to be a different set of numbers). ===== The basic models (and the detail kit) will be the big sellers for the middle market. Having both the powered and dummy versions of A and B units gives flexibility in how they are used. The cost should be minor, as you should be able to tool a dummy chassis that can serve both versions. The single unit with Soundtraxx will satisfy those who want to keep the coupling flexibility (they can run one of these - likely a B unit, I'd make more of them - with other unsounded units). It will also make Soundtraxx available at a moderate cost. The A-B-A set will be a winner among the detail and operation hounds. This will be pricey, but should give a discount over buying all the parts separately. (Likely no worse than a brass set.) Plus, the engineering will be done so fitting everything together will be easy. ===== Any thoughts from the list on this strategy? Regards, Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Shark option, opinions wanted... Date: Fri, 6 Mar 98 12:39:50 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1527 On 3/6/98 12:07 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >My preference? Make sure that your powered units have completely insulated >motors for ease of DCC installation, and offer "custom Sountraxx >installation" as an option for both A and B units. Certainly, $170 for an >installed Soundtraxx decoder is a good, competitive price. My bottom line >is that I will probably be buying these locomotives as kits anyway, so I >will install my own Sountraxx chips. My installation would be A (sountraxx >equipped) - B (dummy, with speaker from A) - A (soundtraxx equipped). The >B unit would have plugs at each end for the speaker wires and each A would >have a set of plugs to connect to the B. These units could then be used as >single A units, A-B sets with either A or as an A-B-A consist (an easy MU >on my digitrax system - including appropraite headlight control) Bruce makes some fine points. The A units are already very long and should be large enough to house the Soundtrax decoder and speaker. Would simplify flexibility in power lashups. Change my vote to A's only. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:59:49 EST Subject: Re: ListServ Upgrade Opportunity Content-Length: 327 Jerry, I tried "PRRMO@dsop.com" but was told it cannot be retrieved. What is it and how do I get it? Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: More New ListServ Features Date: Fri, 6 Mar 98 15:06:35 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2067 Appending my message from earlier today, I have learned some additional new features in the "Pro" version of my listserv: > * Post or unsubscribe messages now use a more intelligent address matching > scheme to determine if the user is allowed to post or they wish to > unsubscribe. The new scheme uses the account name and the primary domain > for comparison. For example, all the following are considered equivalent > addresses: > * smith@bigcorp.com > * smith@engineering.bigcorp.com > * smith@accounting.bigcorp.com > * smith@custodial.bfe.outterubanga.bigcorp.com This will be a blessing for many users who send/receive mail via sites that use multiple mail servers. In order to post to the list, your subscriber name MUST match the sender's name of your post. If it does not, the message is discarded as SPAM. >Messages can be excluded based on their size. This may be helpful at times. > An alternate list of addresses can be specified for posting. This allows > someone to receive messages at only one account but to post from other > accounts. Ahah! For those of you who want to post from work but not receive there! >All dates in headers now use a four-digit year (e.g. 1997 not 97). Addressing potential Y2K problems. Again, I will not be purchasing this outright, as I do not see the "need" from an operations standpoint -- given other needs which take priority. However, there are many benefits to the you, the users. If donations allow, I will purchase the upgrade, which costs $99 if ordered before March 31. See http://prr.dsop.com/support.html for instructions on donations. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: ListServ Upgrade Opportunity Date: Fri, 6 Mar 98 15:33:25 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1238 On 3/6/98 3:59 PM, Paintloco (Paintloco@aol.com) wrote: >I tried "PRRMO@dsop.com" but was told it cannot be retrieved. What is it and >how do I get it? Since this message was posted to "PRR-Talk" as well, I'll respond to all. "PRRMO" is an HO scale modular modeling group established in January. Bruce Smith is our "chair". "PRRMO@dsop.com" is our discussion list which we use to discuss module standards, etc. It is not available for public subscription. You MUST go through the PRRMO web site and contact Bruce Smith about getting added to the subscriber list. You CANNOT be a subscriber unless you state your intent to construct a module for the layout. Our reasons for remaining private are so that standards and such may be established by a smaller, focused group, rather than a "200 member free-for-all". --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Shark comments.... Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:29:20 -0500 Content-Length: 2005 Hello, I have received a good amount of mail in ref. to my earlier post about sound options and your opinions, thank you ! I want to take a quick moment to clarify a few points..... First, when the Sharks are ready for release, we will ask those interested to let us know who you are. We will then mail out an order form and info packet. This packet will describe everything in great detail. Now, the order form will contain a complete list of ordering options where all you will need do is to 'check the appropriate box' for the desired options, etc. Second, the Sharks will be available as 'base units' (all A's powered, B's powr'd or dummy) . These will be the lowest cost versions, and contain the bare minimum that will allow one to run DC ops. with an NMRA type plug that will allow conversion to DCC. From there, you will be able to check off add'l options, and outfit your models with any number of extra's ! For those who prefer to do it themselves, all levels will be available in kit form ! The factory built units will have a money back guarrantee, and an offer to have any upgrades performed in the future by us, as well as a no cost option for free yearly inspection ( one would only pay for any parts needing replacement ) We want to bring some new idea's to the market, and maintain a very close and open policy with our customers. We realize that the hobby 'ain't getting any cheaper', and want to offer the best 'value for your dollar' that we possibly can. Bottom line- we want you to be satisfied with your purchase, and hope that you will continue to offer your opinions and ideas with us so that we may better serve you and provide the types of products you want ! Thanks, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:42:17 EST Subject: Re: Shark options, a manufacturers input Content-Length: 832 In a message dated 98-03-06 12:40:11 EST,Bob Boyd writes: << Any thoughts from the list on this strategy? >> I would add a suggestion that the knockout holes for antenna installation be included on the shell interior, similar to what Bowser did on the cabooses. I would reinforce the opinion that a powered B unit should be offered, also with the DCC socket. That is my one disappointment with the P2K E units. Allow us to put decoders in all units. Watch out for connectors. More than one of us have found these miniature connectors to not hold up well after a few couplings, uncouplings. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:34:48 EST Subject: Re: Shark option, opinions wanted... Content-Length: 409 THe soundxx system would force DCC systems on purchasers. As such IMHO you will drastically reduce your sales. I know I won't be buying anything which requires DCC to fully function. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Edgemoor Yard to Delmarva trackage Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:36:58 -0000 Content-Length: 467 When Pennsy trains (and Conrail for that matter) ran from Edgemoor Yard to the Delmarva lines, how were they routed? Did they have to go along the NEC, then New Castle secondary to get to the Delmarva main line? Thanks! Jim wjhudson@erols.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Number of units in a lash-up Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:47:14 -0000 Content-Length: 895 I remember reading somewhere that the Pennsy strove to have 6000 hp in their road power lash-ups -- i.e. 2 Centipedes, 3 Es, 4 Fs, etc. Was this true system wide or just on the main lines? On branches and secondaries could you find, say a single GP7 or a pair of Fs on a freight? Or would that be unprototypical? I also have a somewhat related question, when did lash-ups of different classes of power start? One of my favorite photos if of a Tuscan FP7, Brunswick GP7, and a Brunswick F7 pulling a freight. It seems at the beginning, however, the only MUs were with power in the same class. When did they start "mixing it up?" Thanks! Jim wjhudson@erols.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Alco RS1, Pennsy class AS-10 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:51:42 -0000 Content-Length: 573 It seems like some of the Pennsy's RS1s were equipped with steam generators. Is this true? How were these units used? Did they pull locals, or were they just for switching? And the ones without steam generators: What role did the average RS1 fulfill for the Pennsy? Was it more of a switcher or road unit for them? Thanks! Jim wjhudson@erols.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:48:53 EST Subject: Shortest Service (was Re: Princeton) Content-Length: 906 Subj: Re: Princeton Date: 98-03-04 23:24:11 EST From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: George.Pierson@trnty.edu CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com (Referring to the "Princeton Junction & Back", as the shortest scheduled service): <> <> It's a stretch, but BLW 60000 in the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia moves back and forth about 12 feet every ten minutes or so, carrying paid passengers. (They paid to get in the Institute). Maybe I auger not mention it =(:*) Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 19:07:59 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Pennsy Books Content-Length: 661 Since I got dinged for putting books on the eBay auction without giving SPFs on this list first crack, I thought I'd pass this info along - I think these prices are quite reasonable: 52. STAUFER,"PENNSY POWER". First edition. 1962 B $37.00 53. STAUFER,"PENNSY POWER II". 1968 B $39.00 60. STAUFER, "C&O POWER", 7th printing, 1984 B+ $37.00 If interested: Alden Dryer ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:34:01 EST Subject: Re: Alco RS1, Pennsy class AS-10 Content-Length: 1896 Jim and all, Pennsy was a fair size buyer of the Class AS-10am and A-10ams (steam generator equiped). However they only bought five units equipped with steam generators. Two of these were purchased with roller bearing trucks (8485 and 8486) and were the only two units to be equiped with MU recepticles and steam generators, the other three (5906, 8857 and 8858) were not equiped with MU recepticles or roller bearing trucks. Only one unit was found in consistant Passenger service (comuter service) 5906, the other seemed to run protection for comuter service or simply heated passenger cars. They mostly spent their years in switch service or road switch service. The majority of them could be found in NY state or the Philly area of few found in the OH/PA lake area. Surprisingly they did not all receive train phone antennas. Also most units were delivered with a "box" immediately ahead of the engineers side of the cab making the handrail "step-up" with a stanchion ontop the box. It causes some problems to model with the Atlas model, but not impossible. I have seen photos of only three units with out the box but I am still looking. There are also other minor differences like the screened grill on the lower section of door #8 on the engineers side. These make Pennsy's units unique and different from the Atlas model and a challenge to model. I have one and can tell you that they run like a watch. Although it does not fit my Lines West area I plan an article based on the Pennsy with a rack if for no other reason than to share the possiblities with other Pennsy modelers. Watching from Lines way out West Greg Martin keep 'um Polished ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: FS: HO Brass L1 2-8-2 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:49:46 -0500 Content-Length: 353 PFM/United PRR 2-8-2. TRO, tarnished, not original box or original tender. $275 shipped in US. Contact wgripp@prius.jnj.com if interested. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Princeton) From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 00:07:58 EST Content-Length: 1737 If they publish a timetable I'll grant it, even if it is a disquised cable car. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:48:53 EST BBReynolds writes: >Subj: Re: Princeton >Date: 98-03-04 23:24:11 EST >From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) >Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >To: George.Pierson@trnty.edu >CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > >(Referring to the "Princeton Junction & Back", as the shortest >scheduled >service): > >< >1. Yes, it is the shortest scheduled service.>> > ><> > >It's a stretch, but BLW 60000 in the Franklin Institute in >Philadelphia moves >back and forth about 12 feet every ten minutes or so, carrying paid >passengers. >(They paid to get in the Institute). Maybe I auger not mention it >=(:*) > >Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles >IL > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:33:53 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Shortest Service (was Re: Princeton) Content-Length: 1002 George.Pierson claims: >It's a stretch, but BLW 60000 in the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia moves >back and forth about 12 feet every ten minutes or so, carrying paid >passengers. >(They paid to get in the Institute). Maybe I auger not mention it =(:*) ===== Well that beats my local candidate: back in the 70s, the National Museum of Transport here in St. Louis used to offer hand car rides back and forth about 20 feet or so. The fare: one thin dime. Fleeting obscurity, I suppose. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 10:51:29 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Shortest Service (was Re: Princeton) Content-Length: 687 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > Well that beats my local candidate: back in the 70s, the National Museum of > Transport here in St. Louis used to offer hand car rides back and forth > about 20 feet or so. The fare: one thin dime. > > Fleeting obscurity, I suppose. > The late Skip Clark had about 15 feet of track, with a handcar, in his back yard in a Boston Suburb (the Bemis Street Railway), but it offered neither scheduled nor revenue service. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRRT&HS Meeting Agenda Date: Sat, 7 Mar 98 17:11:22 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2601 Just received materials for this year's PRRT&HS Meeting...for those of you with slow mail or non-members. Cost is $30 per family containing one member, includes a new book, "The PRR's Golden Triangle". For non-members, cost is $60, and adds one year of membership. Agenda is as follows: THURSDAY, APRIL 30 Early registration, 6-8 pm Open Slide Show, 8pm-? FRIDAY, MAY 1 Vendor setup begins 8am Vendor room is open 9am-5pm; 6-10pm Program 1: 10-11 am, by PRR Historian John D. Denny, Jr., "The PRR in Columbia, Pa." (This is one for Bruce Smith!) Program 2: 2-3pm, by Artist Ken Murry, "Art-Design-Locomotives. The Men Behind the Brushes and Pens" Program 3: 7-8pm, by PRR Modeler John M. Johnson, "Tips in Assembling Resin Kits" (For all you folks preparing to buy all that forthcoming stuff from Joe Zappa's company!) Program 4: 8-9pm, by RR Museum of Pa. Librarian/Archivist Kurt R. Bell, "History of the Strasburg Railroad" Program 5: 8-9pm (note concurrent time), by Magician/Comedian J. Peter Watt, "Not Just Another Magic Act" (for the spousal units) Program 6: 9-10pm, by members of the Cincinnati Modeling Group, "Gondolas of the PRR" SATURDAY, MAY 2 9-10:30am, Annual Meeting 9:30am-4:30pm, Non-Rail Tour of Lancaster (for the spousal units) Vendors room open 10:30am-3pm Program 7: 11am-Noon, by PRR Historian James J. D. Lynch, Jr., "PRR Towers, Systemwide" (Hey, we all want to see this!) Program 8: 1:30-3:30pm, by PRR Historian and Modeler Herb George, "The Long Island Rail Road in Transition, 1940-1966, From PRR to MTA" 5:30-6pm, Cash Bar 6-7:30pm, Banquet (add'l cost) Program 9: 8-9pm, by members of the Cincinnati Modeling Group, "TrucTRain Flat Cars and Trailers" 10pm-?, Open Slide Show SUNDAY, MAY 3 (Optional Activities, on your own) #1: Amtrak trip to Lewistown and back #2: Liberty Limited Dinner Train for Sunday Brunch on the Northern Central RoW. --- Noticably absent is any venture to the Railroad Museum of Pa or the Strasburg Railroad. I was a bit disappointed with the agenda, and plan to commute only to programs 1, 7, & 9. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:08:17 -0500 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: PRR Whistles (was GG-1 sound) Content-Length: 523 Drew McGhee wrote: > >From what I understand, whistles will sound different with compressed > compared to the way they would sound with steam. Has something to do with > density, condenstation and warm whistle verses cold. > > It would be pretty interesting to hook them up to a tank of helium. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:44:47 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Shortest Service (was Re: Princeton) Content-Length: 972 Steve Bartlett adds: > The late Skip Clark had about 15 feet of track, with a handcar, in his >back yard in a Boston Suburb (the Bemis Street Railway), but it offered >neither scheduled nor revenue service. ===== So would that be "The Standard Railroad Of His Back Yard"? If it was not a common carrier, strictly speaking it wouldn't count, would it? (Anyone know how close Jerry is to apoplexy? We better watch out or he may set up a ShortestRoad-List!) B Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:06 +0000 Subject: PRR sound recordings on vinyl records Content-Length: 1000 Hello to all, Are any of you familiar with the LP recording (vinyl record as opposed to tape recording or digital disk) of "The Pennsylvania Railroad" by Semaphore Records (DLP-6001)? The box cover says this is a "First Collections Series." I have Volume 1. Anyone know how I can obtain another copy of volume 1 and any additional volumes, if produced? There is a 16 page pictorial supplement that is "an audio documentary to steam" (actually, all the recordings are of PRR steam). This recording is not to be confused with the PRR Historical & Technical Society's "The Standard Railroad of the World" recording of PRR steam engines. Any help to my above question will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 10:27:35 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Shortest Service (was Re: Princeton) Content-Length: 841 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > Steve Bartlett adds: > > > The late Skip Clark had about 15 feet of track, with a handcar, in his > >back yard in a Boston Suburb (the Bemis Street Railway), but it offered > >neither scheduled nor revenue service. > > ===== > So would that be "The Standard Railroad Of His Back Yard"? If it was not > a common carrier, strictly speaking it wouldn't count, would it? > > (Anyone know how close Jerry is to apoplexy? We better watch out or he > may set up a ShortestRoad-List!) > Well all right, I'm feeling good; I'll play. It was just as wide! :-) Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: TrucTrains Date: Sun, 8 Mar 98 13:32:50 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1558 Anyone know when PRR started their TrucTrains? Fischer's "PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment" states "mid-1950s". I'd like to know if it was running by October 1954, my modeling era. I can add that the first PRR trailers were 34' with "PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD" diagonally across the sides of the heavily ribbed units. They were painted Freight Car Color. In the 1960's, a new paint scheme featured a round (about 6', Bill Lewis has one) sheet metal emblem that was attached to the side. It had the Keystone Logo over the text "TRUC TRAIN" with "PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD" wrapped around the sides and top. The trailers were still Freight Car Color and 34'. I can't find any decal manufacturers that do the decals. Anyone know of one? Walthers makes 32' trailers in PRR. Anyone know what scheme? Assuming that all of their 32' trailers are the same, it's not close to prototype. The "Frisco" one is shown, and it doesn't have nearly enough ribbing on the side. What about 1950's era flats to put them on? Does anyone make an appropriate "out-of-the-box" kit that is prototypical? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 15:40:55 -0600 From: Sample Subject: Video Tape Series Content-Length: 1804 Hello All, Has anyone seen the video tape series called "America's Railroads" volume 5 "Progress on Rails, Wheels of Steel, Clear Track Ahead" ? It is put out by Marathon Music & Video and Dastar Corp. This tape 5 in a series of 7 has some really great shots of the PRR. I found it at Sam's Club, the series cost $29.00 and I have enjoyed the series since it covers both railroads that went through my home town of Franklin, Indiana (Hello to the Lines West Guys). I was just wondering if anyone knew of any other tapes on the PRR Lines West that a fellow might be able to buy. I have been coping the mail for some time now (WB9LUU) and it seems that the net is kind of hung up on one or two subjects. Do we really have to have box cars that are detailed to the enth degree. I thought that railroading was suppose to be fun not a constant worry. How about it....? How about some talk on something else. You know one thing that came to me while watching these tapes was how many thousands of men there were that worked for the railroads before congress sold them out and used our tax money to build the interstate highway system. Now congress and the phone company are trying to find a way to control and charge for the use of the internet. The good old phone company wants to charge for use of the equipment that they already charge us for. Land of the "Free" right, hold on fokes I think that we are about ready to be pitch poled onto a siding. Eric Sample janeric@infocom.net All replys will be considered........ Hobo's need not reply.... Es ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 16:57:44 EST Subject: Re: TrucTrains Content-Length: 1593 See the Autumn 1992 (Vol. 25, No. 3) of the Keystone for an excellent article on TrucTrain service. According to the article, the start-up date was July 12, 1954. There are many photos showing the early trailer paint scheme which Walthers loosely copied. Regarding the flatcars, the intial cars used in the service were 75' flatcars built by Bethlehem Steel. A group of 200 PRR cars became the original cars in the Trailer Train Company fleet. In the August 1990 issue of RMC, we did a history article on Trailer Train which obviously was heavy with PRR influence. Bruce Keating, a fellow TTX Company (Trailer Train) employee drew the plans of the 75' flatcars built by Bethlehem Steel for the article. The Walthers 75' flatcar model is based on actual Bethlehem Steel plans we have on hand at TTX Company. Additional cars in the PRR fleet were built at Sam Rea. There were two basic flat car designs: one with a cast steel underframe and one with a fabricated underframe. I always felt that one of the 75' cars should have been donated to the Railroader's Museum in Altoona or to the Pa. State RR Museum. I tried to get one donated during the 1980's while I was an inspector for TTX at Hollidaysburg, but the museum director wasn't interested in it. I believe that the cars are now scrapped so that piece of PRR and intermodal history is gone. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:02:46 EST Subject: Re: TrucTrains Content-Length: 336 Part I of the TTX article which as the beginning that includes the PRR information appeared in the July 1990 issue of RMC. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/08/98 Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:06:18 -0500 Content-Length: 1456 Hi Greg: I have a copy of "The First Collector Series Vol 1, The Pennsylvania Railroad, but haven't see it for sale for decades. It is an excellent recording. If my memory serves me correctly, Vol 2 is a recording of the "other railroad", the NYC. Carl P. Izzo > Subject: PRR sound recordings on vinyl records > From: "Greg Leary" > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:06 +0000 > > Hello to all, > > Are any of you familiar with the LP recording (vinyl record as > opposed to tape recording or digital disk) of "The Pennsylvania > Railroad" by Semaphore Records (DLP-6001)? The box cover says this > is a "First Collections Series." I have Volume 1. Anyone know how I > can obtain another copy of volume 1 and any additional volumes, if > produced? There is a 16 page pictorial supplement that is "an audio > documentary to steam" (actually, all the recordings are of PRR > steam). This recording is not to be confused with the PRR Historical > & Technical Society's "The Standard Railroad of the World" recording > of PRR steam engines. Any help to my above question will be greatly > appreciated. Thanks. > > Sincerely, > > Greg Leary (electronically signed) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:41:31 +0000 Subject: Re: The First Collector Series Vol 1, The PRR album Content-Length: 1038 > From: "Carl Izzo" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/08/98 > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:06:18 -0500 Carl wrote: > Hi Greg: > > I have a copy of "The First Collector Series Vol 1, The Pennsylvania > Railroad, but haven't see it for sale for decades. It is an excellent > recording. > > If my memory serves me correctly, Vol 2 is a recording of the "other > railroad", the NYC. > > Carl P. Izzo > Thanks for writing and educating me about volume 2. Hey, if you (or anyone else) ever decide to sell your Volume 1 please let me know. I'm trying to get another copy since mine was a second hand purchase and contains some scratches. Take care. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:57:20 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: TrucTrains Content-Length: 1410 Here's an odd thought: Jerry states: >In the 1960's, a new paint scheme featured a round (about 6', Bill Lewis >has one) sheet metal emblem that was attached to the side. It had the >Keystone Logo over the text "TRUC TRAIN" with "PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD" >wrapped around the sides and top. The trailers were still Freight Car >Color and 34'. > >I can't find any decal manufacturers that do the decals. Anyone know of >one? ===== I know that normally we like to have decals sit flat and blend in under a layer of Dullcote- but, seeing as these emblems are made of sheet metal and riveted on, would it be desirable to have them printed as peel-and-stick labels? Seeing that the average label is about .005", this would look reasonably like a sheet metal overlay. BTW; a 72" emblem would be .828" diameter. It would be fairly easy to do the artwork with a Macintosh. Any thoughts on this? Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:24:17 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? Content-Length: 612 Got a call during the week while I was away; My order for an E7A and B DGLE would not be able to be fulfilled due to no E7Bs (DGLE, that is). Did i want the E7A anyhow? (yes, I did) As near as i can tell, that is correct, no E7Bs. Does anyone know to the contrary? (I mean, I know LL advertised them, but Walthers online thing doesn't have part numbers, and I haven't seen any either) -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 07:51:50 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 803 On 3/9/98 4:24 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG) wrote: >As near as i can tell, that is correct, no E7Bs. Does anyone know to the >contrary? (I mean, I know LL advertised them, but Walthers online thing >doesn't have part numbers, and I haven't seen any either) Walther's DID have part numbers...and yes, there were supposed to be two numbers for B units. I'll see what I can find out. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 08:06:02 -0500 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? Content-Length: 1429 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > On 3/9/98 4:24 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG) wrote: > > >As near as i can tell, that is correct, no E7Bs. Does anyone know to the > >contrary? (I mean, I know LL advertised them, but Walthers online thing > >doesn't have part numbers, and I haven't seen any either) > > Walther's DID have part numbers...and yes, there were supposed to be two > numbers for B units. I'll see what I can find out. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Jerry, I already contacted Derrick to let him know that they do exist, I have the ABBA set. (DGLE 5 Stripe) #23061 Like-Like Proto 2000 E7A Pennsylvania #5841A #23062 Like-Like Proto 2000 E7A Pennsylvania #5848A #23063 Like-Like Proto 2000 E7B Pennsylvania #5844B #23064 Like-Like Proto 2000 E7B Pennsylvania #5853B David Campbell Norton, VA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:00:52 EST Subject: Re: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? Content-Length: 909 In a message dated 98-03-09 06:40:57 EST, D writes: << As near as i can tell, that is correct, no E7Bs. Does anyone know to the contrary? (I mean, I know LL advertised them, but Walthers online thing doesn't have part numbers, and I haven't seen any either) >> Yes. Walthers has (had?) them. Saw them on the shelf at Terminal Hobby Shop. I threw part numbers away since I was expecting mine from my dealer, but I might be able to find them again. He too got two A's, B is delayed. Saw a dealer at Madison WI show with stack at $30 each. Wish I had picked them up but I was loyal to my dealer who gives me a reasonable but smaller discount. Hope I am not sorry. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:39:44 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: elec. locos & number keystones Content-Length: 1906 Hi all! Can anyone help with the time-line for numbers in keysones on the SIDES of PRR electrics? I know that numbers (rather than "PRR") were placed in the end keystone for many years, including the era I am interested in - the 40's. I was looking at photos of P-5a and B-1 locos over the weekend (gathering data for a scratchbuilding project) and the early shots of the P-5 all have the number within the outline of a keystone (not a solid keystone) on the side, above the "PENNSYLVANIA" lettering. I can pick this out in a few shots as late as the late 40's, but a nice clear builders shot of #4770 (the 1945 rebuild) shows the classic PRR keystone. Several B-1 shots show the outline keystone with number as late as the 1950's! BTW, units with the number keystone do not have the large road number on the side at each end. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 08:48:25 -0500 Content-Length: 1517 My local dealer (Charles Ro - yes he sells HO) does a LOT of business with P2K. He buys his stuff in large lots, direct. He too has been unable to get DGLE E7B's. This adds to the suspicion that they were not (yet?) made. BTW I just finished detailing my DGLE E7A; radio antenna and nose rings. Looks great mixed in with the tuscan ones. Don't forget to extend the stipes over the side windows! BTW2 Has anyone figured out what to do about the gaping maw in the pilot? Viewed from the right angle, the engine looks like it has no pilot at all! Since I run on 36" min radius turns, I'd love to fill it in. Anyone with suggestions? regards Andy Miller - ---------- Got a call during the week while I was away; My order for an E7A and B DGLE would not be able to be fulfilled due to no E7Bs (DGLE, that is). Did i want the E7A anyhow? (yes, I did) As near as i can tell, that is correct, no E7Bs. Does anyone know to the contrary? (I mean, I know LL advertised them, but Walthers online thing doesn't have part numbers, and I haven't seen any either) - -D - ------------------------------------------------------------ For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:56:11 EST Subject: Re: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? Content-Length: 1623 In a message dated 98-03-09 12:29:45 EST, Andy Miller writes : << BTW2 Has anyone figured out what to do about the gaping maw in the pilot? Viewed from the right angle, the engine looks like it has no pilot at all! Since I run on 36" min radius turns, I'd love to fill it in. Anyone with suggestions? >> I agree it is unbelievable. Looks like an old toy Talgo-truck diesel. I presume you want to operate with couplers at both ends. I inititally solved the problem by running my Broadway with same loco on front and using the doors supplied by P2K. However, this doesn't look like the coupler covers Pennsy used. I may try and adapt Diesel Associates part SY2214 passenger pilot with cover. Most difficult would be fitting entire pilot. I feel contours wouldn't match up and the DA part doesn't include anticlimbers. A major project. More likely, when I eventually get around to it, I will fill in the pilot hole with Squadron Green and only use the cover portion from the DA kit. That is what I did on my AHM E8 I previously converted. However, that was actually a smaller hole to fill so getting the rounded shape of the pilot wasn't as big a factor. The P2K unit has such a big hole it will be more work to keep a realistic shape --a styrene base may be a starting point. Is a puzzlement why that hole is so d----d big, considering the fixed coupler mount. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: E7B's in stock Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 14:05:28 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 581 1 Railroad Avenue (http://www.walston1.com/trains/index.htm) shows both B units in stock. Unfortunately, these &*%$'s only sell at full retail...$45 each. If you really want 'em... --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:19:27 EST Subject: Re: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? Content-Length: 531 Please remember that when the PRR E7's were announced LL clearly let it be known that the parts for the "B" units were in short supply and the number of B's would drastically less than earlier runs. They also stated that after this run there would be no more B's. What or why the shortage I do not know. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: RE: E7B's in stock Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:19:58 -0500 Content-Length: 689 > 1 Railroad Avenue (http://www.walston1.com/trains/index.htm) shows > both B > units in stock. Unfortunately, these &*%$'s only sell at full > retail...$45 each. If you really want 'em... > That's why they have lots of stuff in stock that no one else does anymore. They are fairly local to where I work. I've given up dealing with them due to their bad attitude. I've found stores that are closer, cheaper, and friendlier, so why should I bother with them? ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:27:46 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [HO] DGLE E7Bs wanted (of course) Content-Length: 388 Well, if any of you see an E7B DGLE I'd appreciate it if you could drop me a line; I'd love to get at least one to go with my E7A, since I'm gonna get short shipped. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: NEWS from Bowser ! Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:57:59 -0500 Content-Length: 827 Hello all ! Just wanted to let you all know......I spoke with Mr. Lee English at Bowser Mfg. today, and was informed that the T1's are READY !!! Now for even better news ! As a Bowser dealer, for those here on PRR-Talk that are interested in buying these models, I am going to make these available to group members at the special price of $ 160.00 ( retail is $ 199.95 !! ) The detail set sells for $ 71.95 retail -- group member price will be $ 59.00 !! Please let me know asap if you would like to order. As I want to make sure I get enough of them ! Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 17:13:34 -0500 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: Re: [HO] DGLE E7Bs wanted (of course) Content-Length: 810 Mitchells, in Wilmington Delaware had a few last time I was there. But they also sell at full list price. They have a website at www.mitchells.com. Good Luck! Derrick J Brashear wrote: > Well, if any of you see an E7B DGLE I'd appreciate it if you could drop me > a line; I'd love to get at least one to go with my E7A, since I'm gonna > get short shipped. > > -D > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:56:41 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: P2K E7B's? Content-Length: 1161 Rich Orr states: >Please remember that when the PRR E7's were announced LL clearly let it be >known that the parts for the "B" units were in short supply and the number of >B's would drastically less than earlier runs. They also stated that after >this run there would be no more B's. What or why the shortage I do not know. ===== The most likely explanation is that the B unit carbody mold was dammaged and they decided it wasn't worth the cost to fix it. Otherwise, if they had simply decided to discontinue the B units, they would at least have run enough for this final issue- and likely would have made a big stink about it to drum up sales. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Fw:First Collector Series Vol 1 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:01:25 -0500 Content-Length: 1526 > Hi Greg: > > I have a copy of "The First Collector Series Vol 1, The Pennsylvania > Railroad, but haven't see it for sale for decades. It is an excellent > recording. > > If my memory serves me correctly, Vol 2 is a recording of the "other > railroad", the NYC. > > Carl P. Izzo > > > Subject: PRR sound recordings on vinyl records > > From: "Greg Leary" > > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:15:06 +0000 > > > > Hello to all, > > > > Are any of you familiar with the LP recording (vinyl record as > > opposed to tape recording or digital disk) of "The Pennsylvania > > Railroad" by Semaphore Records (DLP-6001)? The box cover says this > > is a "First Collections Series." I have Volume 1. Anyone know how I > > can obtain another copy of volume 1 and any additional volumes, if > > produced? There is a 16 page pictorial supplement that is "an audio > > documentary to steam" (actually, all the recordings are of PRR > > steam). This recording is not to be confused with the PRR Historical > > & Technical Society's "The Standard Railroad of the World" recording > > of PRR steam engines. Any help to my above question will be greatly > > appreciated. Thanks. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Greg Leary (electronically signed) > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:48:23 EST Subject: Re: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? Content-Length: 805 Andy and All, The easist fix for the pilot is to have your hobby dealer order you a detail part set for an E-8. I has the pilot you are all looking for. It is a sad sad shame that LIFE LIKE has reduced itself to compromising quality for a train set attitude. These engines do not need to operate on a radius less than 24". Why the compromises, now the same thing on the PA shell. Oh well toy train attitude caught up I guess. I fear my last LLP2K purchase was the E-8 and the SD-7. Hope they get back on track. Watching from LINE way out WEST Greg Martin Keep 'um polished ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 21:04:26 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: NEWS from Bowser ! Content-Length: 1621 Liberty wrote: > Hello all ! > > Just wanted to let you all know......I spoke with Mr. Lee English at > Bowser > Mfg. today, and was informed that the T1's are READY !!! > > Now for even better news ! As a Bowser dealer, for those here on > PRR-Talk > that are interested in buying these models, I am going to make these > available to group members at the special price of $ 160.00 ( > retail is > $ 199.95 !! ) > > The detail set sells for $ 71.95 retail -- group member price will be > $ > 59.00 !! > > Please let me know asap if you would like to order. As I want to make > sure > I get enough of them ! > Hello Joe,I'd be mighty interested in making some improvements to my original Pennline T-1. What kind of motors are they using in the new T-1? Also is the valve gear a little more realistic? Are they still using two motors to drive the thing? Lastly, is the new T-1 Pre or Post War? The Pre and Post War designs were a little different from each other. If they a Pre War, then I definitely want one, especially if the full skirting is done on these. My old Pennline is about 45 years old and it pulls all 14 of my weighted passenger cars even up hills. It does "hunt" a little, but it's a blast to watch. It's my only foray into HO. I'd love to have one in N-scale though :) Thanks for the info! I look forward to hearing more! Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 2:56:35 -0600 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? -Reply Content-Length: 1418 Date: 03/10/1998 03:53 am (Tuesday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [HO] no P2K DGLE E7B's? -Reply The day before I left on my current business trip (3 weeks ago today), I got a call from my local hobby shop that the 2 E7A's in DGLE that I had ordered had arrived but that they had not received any E7B's in DGLE. They were checking. I will arrive home in Houston from London tomorrow evening, to late to check, but will check first thing Thursday and advise. Bill Laird >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 3/9/98, 02:24am wrote>>> >Got a call during the week while I was away; My order >for an E7A and B DGLE would not be able to be fulfilled >due to no E7Bs (DGLE, that is). Did i want the E7A >anyhow? (yes, I did) > >As near as i can tell, that is correct, no E7Bs. >Does anyone know to the contrary? (I mean, I know >LL advertised them, but Walthers online thing >doesn't have part numbers, and I haven't seen any either) > >-D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 03:07:23 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Content-Length: 956 Roger Elliott wrote: >- - - Lastly, is the new T-1 Pre or Post >War? The Pre and Post War designs were a little different from each >other. If they a Pre War, then I definitely want one, especially if the >full skirting is done on these. ===== Interesting question. Let me toss this out for discussion: who would prefer the pre-war full skirted T1 vs the post-war mini skirted version? It'd be interesting to see what the interest is in each. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 06:58:42 -0500 Content-Length: 1674 Bob, I will check and let everyone know for sure, which version it is, and I will try to give a basic review as soon as they (T1's) arrive. In response to your question/survey - Definately the Pre-War full skirt version! That is my pref. Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 4:07 AM > > Roger Elliott wrote: > > >- - - Lastly, is the new T-1 Pre or Post > >War? The Pre and Post War designs were a little different from each > >other. If they a Pre War, then I definitely want one, especially if the > >full skirting is done on these. > > ===== > > Interesting question. Let me toss this out for discussion: who would > prefer the pre-war full skirted T1 vs the post-war mini skirted version? > It'd be interesting to see what the interest is in each. > > Bob > > > Robert A. Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > > ========================================================== > > "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:16:03 -0600 Subject: Re: PRR Railway Operating Battalion Content-Length: 1390 Kevin, Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Here is what I found in the PENNSY magazine. October 1953 724th Transportation Railway Operating Battalion in Korea October 1956 Railway Battalions on Summer Maneuvers at Fort Eustis VA. They were both short stories (about two to three pages each). If you want I could send yoou copies of the articles. Randy "Kevin Tully" on 02/26/98 04:32:48 PM To: Randy Williamson/Marathon cc: Subject: Re: PRR Railway Operating Battalion I have a copy of a May(?) 1956 issue of the PENNSY magazine that has as it's featured article the Pennsy Operating Battalion. If you want a photocopy of the article I could get it for you. Randy Randy, Were you ever able to get me a copy of this article? Also, the ROB page is up. Take a look at it via my site. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:36:48 EST Subject: Re: NEWS from Bowser ! Content-Length: 679 In a message dated 98-03-10 00:47:28 EST, Roger Elliott writes: << Lastly, is the new T-1 Pre or Post War? >> I too love the early version, but the sample I saw at Madison was a (major) upgrade of the tooling for their previous model, the later revised version without the Buick portholes and full skirting. I do have an old Gem hospital case of the 6110 (first one) so I may try and retrofit that body to the Bowser chassis (project 98). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:49:48 EST Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Content-Length: 1030 In a message dated 98-03-10 04:19:01 EST, Bob Boyd writes: << Let me toss this out for discussion: who would prefer the pre-war full skirted T1 vs the post-war mini skirted version? >> Sorry to toss another monkey wrench, but, although I will try and adapt my prewar , long nose, full-skirted Gem body version, my actual preference is for the first main production batch (1945) which had portholes, some skirting, slightly shorter nose, different grille. Only because I tend to like the typical rather than the unusual when I run trains. There were only two built of the full-skirted versions, 6110 and 6111. You could realistically run a fleet (subject to $$ considerations) of the version I describe. Same reason I have passed up a chance at an S-2 turbine. (another $.02 worth) Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:08:26 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Content-Length: 3212 Roger wrote: >Hello Joe,I'd be mighty interested in making some improvements to my >original Pennline T-1. What kind of motors are they using in the new >T-1? Also is the valve gear a little more realistic? Are they still >using two motors to drive the thing? The drive train (ie motors) is the same as the "old" Bowser T1. Mr. English is quite distainful of can motors, gear towers, and DCC (unfortunately). The frame will be unprototypically articulated to allow tighter radii. As I understand from talking with Mr. English at Madison, the basic revision in the T-1 was to replace the old molds for the boiler, and to create a mold for the tender (which used to be a metal wrapper). These molds should, of course, have better details than the old worn out molds were producing. The pilot boiler model in Madison looked pretty nice! >Lastly, is the new T-1 Pre or Post War? Definitely POST-WAR (production T-1). The two prototype T-1 locos #6110, 6111 were built in 1942-3 (I believe). They had a longer sharper snout, and full skirting, which was removed for maintainence ease late in WWII. There are some other minor differences like light positions, grills, and other details. For a builders photo of 6110, see: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/prr6110.jpg FWIW, Trains Magazine, 1959 (I have a photocopy) has an article on duplex drive locomotives, in which the PRR T-1 figures prominantly. The article, written by David Morgan, has at least one GLARING mistake as it labels the year of production of the prototype T-1 as 1952! Also, remeber that one T-1 had experimental valve gear applied. I have a "lunatic plan" since I model 1944. I'm going to try to "backdate" the Bowser production model T-1 to a more appropriate prototype T-1! Simple if all I do is add more skirting. Quite a bit more difficult if I want to model the correct nose. I'll be honest though, I CAN'T tell the difference in photographs . Of course, Joe Zappa could help us all by offering a "backdate kit" - skirting (etched brass or resin?) a new nose (Resin?) and other appropriate details! ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 98 10:37:32 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 818 On 3/10/98 10:49 AM, Bobspf (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Sorry to toss another monkey wrench, but, although I will try and adapt my >prewar , long nose, full-skirted Gem body version, my actual preference is >for >the first main production batch (1945) which had portholes, some skirting, >slightly shorter nose, different grille. Sounds like a "modification kit" project for our ol' buddy Joe at Liberty! 8-) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Sale- New Bowser T1 !!!!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:27:25 -0500 Content-Length: 1255 Since there have been many responses.......... To place your order for the New Bowser T1, please send check or Money Order to: Liberty Model Productions P.O. Box 204 Sharpsville, PA. 16150 PA residents please include 6% extra for the tax. All domestic orders - please include $ 4.50 for Priority Mail shipping. For those that prefer UPS, please include $ 5.50 for shipping and insurance. We are placing an add'l order for these on Friday (the first order we placed is due in next week, and is sold out) All orders should ship within 7 days of receipt of payment (or sooner if they are in when we rec'v. your order) For those that have not yet responded to the earlier post, please let me know by this Thursday if you want to order, so we can make sure to get enough units this time !! Sorry I didn't ask sooner ! I will update you all by e-mail on the status of the order. Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions BTW- we have similar discounts on all the other Bowser products !! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Fwd: E7's in stock!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 98 11:52:41 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 907 Mainline Hobbies in Blue Ridge Summit has an E7B in stock: ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 03/10 12:03 PM Received: 03/10 11:44 AM From: Bonnie Wolfe, mainline@innernet.net To: Jerry, jerry@dsop.com Dear Jerry.Ihave only one B unit in stock $39.95 and three A units 3 number 5848 $69.99.If you let me know hoe many you need and can probely get you what you need. Thanks Bonnie ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:13:46 EST Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Content-Length: 664 Sirs, I have seen the boiler casting. It is the same version Penn Line and Bowser did before. The cast on detail is beautiful and at a glance appeared accurate. I was inpressed with the scale rivets and seam lines. It is of the same quality as the new Bowser I1 boiler. I understand the drive is unchanged as is the tender but I have not seem them. Model Railroader is to have me review one. Soon, I hope. Don Murphy Westside Locomotive Works ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:08:17 EST Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Content-Length: 426 Sir, I am happy to hear they reworked the tender ,too. I just learned via email from MR that only the USRA Mike will be reviewed. Plans to have me also do the T1 have been dropped as of late today. Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:08:47 EST Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Content-Length: 426 Sir, I am happy to hear they reworked the tender ,too. I just learned via email from MR that only the USRA Mike will be reviewed. Plans to have me also do the T1 have been dropped as of late today. Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:48:15 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Content-Length: 1141 Dick Taylor wrote: > > rboydrrs@inlink.com wrote: > > > > Roger Elliott wrote: > > > > >- - - Lastly, is the new T-1 Pre or Post > > >War? The Pre and Post War designs were a little different from each > > >other. If they a Pre War, then I definitely want one, especially if the > > >full skirting is done on these. > > > > Interesting question. Let me toss this out for discussion: who would > > prefer the pre-war full skirted T1 vs the post-war mini skirted version? > > It'd be interesting to see what the interest is in each. > > > > Bob > I like the post war, ".. I'm pulling a train, dammit, not modeling for Life.." look, myself. I know I'm dating myself, but I have a childhood memory of seeing a T1 somewhere in the Philly area(?) in the late 40's. I do remember a lot of "guts" being visable on it. The sight of a "T" is something that I guess you don't forget easily! Dick Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:14:25 EST Subject: Passenger Car John Hancock Content-Length: 515 I have acquired a IHC model of this car. It is a heavyweight that has been painted silver and has had corrugated sides added, I presume to run in the Congressional/Senator. Was there such a car? or is this something IHC just made up. I hope it was real because the car is really interesting. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:54:19 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: Shortest Service / Princeton Branch Content-Length: 829 I keeping with the spirit of "The Standard Railroad of the World", I think we should set some standards. To qualify for "Shortest Passenger Train Run" it should: 1. Be composed of equipment specifically intended to carry passengers. (Rules out BLW 60000 and hand cars) 2. Operate point-to-point. (No museum or backyard loops) 3. Charge a fare for the trip. (Rules out "people movers") 4. Have a published timetable, not just "frequency of operation". (Rules out subways and most "light rail".) The "PJ&B" wins hands down ! - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 09:14 10-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:54:20 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: PRR Whistles Content-Length: 727 Posting by R Vogel 07 Mar 1998: >> Drew McGhee wrote: > >From what I understand, whistles will sound different with compressed > compared to the way they would sound with steam. Has something to do with > density, condenstation and warm whistle verses cold. It would be pretty interesting to hook them up to a tank of helium.<< Hmmm... Would that PRR freight "Banshee" (and all British whistles) inaudible to human ears ? - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 09:19 10-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:54:17 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: Suggestion Content-Length: 617 Would it be possible to separate messages with a line of equal signs (or other characters) instead of dashes ? I ask this because some people use dashes to set off their signatures. A line of unique characters would let me know where one message ends and another begins, so I could easily scroll past messages that don't interest me. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 09:06 10-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:09:02 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Passenger Car John Hancock Content-Length: 1914 Hal6963 wrote: > > I have acquired a IHC model of this car. It is a heavyweight that has been > painted silver and has had corrugated sides added, I presume to run in the > Congressional/Senator. Was there such a car? or is this something IHC just > made up. I hope it was real because the car is really interesting. > > Harold > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Harold, Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Clause. OK, I got my little joke in--no offense. The JOHN HANCOCK is a real car. The Pennsy had this and another heavyweight Pullman (the ROBERT R. LIVINGSTON) painted in the shadow line "protection equipment" scheme to augment the Congressional & Senator trains when ridership exceeded the roster of available stainless steel fluted side equipment. BTW, there was also a smoothside diner on the PRR roster (road number 1157) done in the shadow line paint, but I'm not sure of any others with th possible exception of a heavyweight observation. I know IHC did both the heavyweight Pullmans, but don't think they ever did the diner, even though they were supposed to have done it. Important !!! Make sure you get the corrected JOHN HANCOCK and Budd fluted side cars that have the keystone monogram with the toludine red field, rather than the origanlly done (wrong) tuscan field. The IHC product numbers to look for these corrections on the cars are: 6730 (grill), 6731 (coach), 6732 (Roomette), 6614 (heavyweight Pullman JOHN HANCOCK), and 6733 (observation). Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:35:15 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: the Bowser T1 Content-Length: 1661 Hello Dick and everyone, I'm a fan of the PreWar version but I'll take the PostWar just fine, thank you. I'm only 36 years (I know, I know what am I doing modelling a railroad I never grew up around....) old and I would have loved to have seen a T-1 "burning up Rome" as I have heard it described every time they took off. I'm still hoping to find an N-scale T-1 some day........ That or I'm going to have to learn to scratch build........ Hey here's a challenge! Ok, if you could do it, how would start in making a T-1 in N-scale? I note that the drivers on the ConCor 4-6-4 are the same size as the prototype. I think the trailing truck and the pilot truck might also work...... Here's to thinking...... Maybe Joe Zappa is thinking about this? Roger Elliott Dick Taylor wrote: > > > Interesting question. Let me toss this out for discussion: who > would > > > prefer the pre-war full skirted T1 vs the post-war mini skirted > version? > > > It'd be interesting to see what the interest is in each. > > > > > > Bob > > > I like the post war, ".. I'm pulling a train, dammit, not modeling > for > Life.." look, myself. I know I'm dating myself, but I have a > childhood > memory of seeing a T1 somewhere in the Philly area(?) in the late > 40's. > I do remember a lot of "guts" being visable on it. The sight of a "T" > > is > something that I guess you don't forget easily! > > Dick Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: P2K DGLE E7's Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:38:04 -0600 Content-Length: 1275 Have noticed all the disappointment over the scarcity of DGLE E7B's. My local best source for anything to do with HO is: West Florida Railroad Museum 206 Henry St. Milton, FL 32570 (850) 623-3645 The non-profit museum operates a very well stocked hobby shop to pay their expenses. They currently do not have any PRR DGLE E7B's, but were promised some this month. When I made him aware of our current situation, he said he would check it out with his 5 different suppliers. Here is what he does have which may be of interest; several of each are in stock; all prices are postpaid; FL residents add tax: E7A DGLE or Tuscan 5 stripes $63 E8A Tuscan single stripe $60 E7B Tuscan 5 stripe dummy $31 Also a single undec E7B dummy $31 They will take check or money order. Call them and leave message to order or e-mail me at steveh@dotstar.net. BTW I do not like the pilots on either the E7or E8. Viewed from the side they have way too much of a "buck tooth" look. LL no doubt found that correct for some road but not PRR. Steve Hoxie ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:16:44 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Content-Length: 1465 Jerry Shickler wrote: > > A few weeks ago, Rob Schoenberg said that an Atlas rep. said that the > Pennsy market is drying up as its fan base ages. I'm interested in > seeing what the average & range of ages of list subscribers is. If those > willing would e-mail me (off list) their ages, I'll post the results, > and also send them to the Atlas rep who lurks at rec.models.railroad. > I received 61 responses. The average age is 45.7 and the median is 46. The most common ages were 45 & 47 (Four members each), followed by 35, 38, 42, 53, 54 & 59 (three members each). The youngest was 25, the oldest 65. Again, I didn't count children or grandchildren, only the ages of those responding. I sent the info to an Atlas rep. and will let you know what he has to say. BTW, I went to the train show in Erie Mar. 1 & came away with a P2K DGLE E7A (didn't see any B's), a Branchline billboard refer, a Bowser X32 boxcar, and a photo of a PRR Atlantic. My wife was actually trying to talk me into buying things. Someone had an assembled Bowser Decapod (or was it a Consolidation -- fuzzy memory) that was tempting. Some of the Bowser locos look a little toylike, but this was nice. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:48:50 -0500 Subject: Bowser T-1 Content-Length: 688 Let me be the guy who throws cold water on the T-1 . I own two Bowser T-1s which i built so I am entitled!! Although it can pull almost anything, it did and does have several liabilities. It has a lousy drive train. After use one has to always check those two screws which hold the boiler on the motors. Additionally one has to pick the unit up with care because these screws can let go!!! Finally aesthetically, it lurches around curves!!! Start the flames!!! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:18:26 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Passenger Car John Hancock Content-Length: 1581 Harold asks: >I have acquired a IHC model of this car. It is a heavyweight that has been >painted silver and has had corrugated sides added, I presume to run in the >Congressional/Senator. Was there such a car? or is this something IHC just >made up. I hope it was real because the car is really interesting. ===== There are references to two heavyweight JOHN HANCOCKs: * a 34 seat Parlor, Plan 3419 built 10/24 This is one of 2 Parlor cars built for PRR; there were only 10 altogether. * a 30 seat Parlor, 1 drawingroom Plan 4000-A built 8/30 This car is one of 18: PRR had 12. They were assigned to the Congressional. The second car, Plan 4000-A, was painted in silver/shadowstripe during the period 1952 to 1957. The letterboards, striping and the name area were painted Tuscan. They appear to have had ice air conditioning. I have no specific info on the Plan 3419 car, but it was probably renamed (and thus likely reassigned) prior to the 4000-A car being built in 1930. As such, it probably did not get the shadowstripes. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:56:40 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: Bowser T-1 Content-Length: 1231 No flames from me. For its time though, it was state of the art. That was a 50's answer to a P2K or a Kato! You have to concede at least one thing to those old Penn Line/Bowser engines. They could do the one thing that steamers are supposed to do better than anything before or since,- pull trains. I have yet to any HO guage steam engine that come close to one of those brutes when it is a matter of pulling train "A" up grade "B" As a certifiable SPF, it pains me to see a beautifully detailed, and flawlessly painted brass T-1 struggle to pull itself and 3 coaches up a 2% grade. Put on one of those double-engined Penn Lines on and it is a differnt story! I think doubleheaded T-1's could pull the bumper off of a 55 Chevy :-) Your correct, though, it is a dated design, and true, the screws can cause some "interesting" operating sessions! However, I tend to lurch around curves a bit also, and the T-1 design isn't that much younger than I am, so it's allowed :-) Regards, Dick Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Bowser T-1 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:10:50 -0500 Content-Length: 1550 Michael, Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion ! The good news, is that I did talk to Bill Reed at Alco Products today, and he is planning to release a changeover kit so you can use his 'helix humper' can motors ! - No idea when, or how much, just that he is planning to do so !! And, after what Dick said in his post about pulling the bumper off ........, You just wait !! Hmmm, newer can motors, DCC, sound unit......CAN'T WAIT !!!! Joe ---------- > From: Michael DiMaio > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Bowser T-1 > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 1:48 AM > > Let me be the guy who throws cold water on the T-1 . I own two > Bowser T-1s which i built so I am entitled!! Although it can pull > almost anything, it did and does have several liabilities. It has a > lousy drive train. After use one has to always check those two > screws which hold the boiler on the motors. Additionally one has to > pick the unit up with care because these screws can let go!!! Finally > aesthetically, it lurches around curves!!! Start the flames!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Bowser T-1 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 06:37:52 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1562 Sat down and looked through "Black Gold, Black Diamonds" last night, following the comment that the new T-1 was a later version. I identified three variations: 1) Original #6110/6111 had a sharper nose...it was longer, making it look sharper. Three portholes on either side in front of the cylinders. Keystone number plate down low, above the pilot. Very high (2-3') shrouding from the running board downward, partially covering the driving wheels. 2) Around 1946, later units had a shorter nose. Still had keystone number plate above the pilot and still had the three portholes. Noticeable change was that the shrouding from the running boards downward was reduced to around 8", leaving most of the driving gear exposed. 3) Around 1947, nose was hinged to allow easier access. Three portholes were removed and entire low front end was redesigned. Noticeable change was that the keystone number plate was moved higher, to just under the headlight. The comment was made that the T-1 was a later variant. Was it #2 or #3...check the location of the keystone plate and the presence of the portholes. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: CT1000 for sale Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 08:35:52 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 520 eBay has a CT1000E dated May 1, 1945 up for auction. See http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8037490. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2K DGLE E7's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 08:48:46 -0500 Content-Length: 1630 . . . BTW I do not like the pilots on either the E7or E8. Viewed from the side they have way too much of a "buck tooth" look. LL no doubt found that correct for some road but not PRR. Steve Hoxie - ------------- Steve, I'm glad someone else has noticed the E6 style slope to the P2K pilots. Its most pronounced on their E8s. I solved the poblen (at the cost of a row of rivits) by taking the freight pilot ang glueing a .015 plastic wrapper over it just below the anticlimber. I then trimmed its bottom edge to the correct contour. This also closed up the "gapping maw" in the front. I then cut an appropriate size opening for the coupler. The hardest part is getting ACC to stick to the acetyl plastic of which the pilot is made. BTW. I turned the gladhand around 180 degress on a short shank KD (#33 ?) so that it can be withdrawn into the pilot for close coupling. It functions just as well in this configuration. I had to carve a small rectangular notch in the bottom of the pilot just under the coupler to accomodate the gladhand of the attached car's coupler. The prototype had a similar notch to clear draqgging equipment detectors. regards Andy Miller - ------------------------------------------------------------ For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:10:58 EST Subject: Re: Bowser T-1 Content-Length: 766 In a message dated 98-03-11 01:55:22 EST, mdmaio writes: << Finally aesthetically, it lurches around curves!!! >> Watch a video of the prototype on a curve. Gives the same distinct impression, in this case, probably due to the rigid frame. Otherwise, although I like the Bowser locos (beats those wussy brass ones which can't run more than 5 minutes without the rods or valve gear falling apart) , I do agree with you on the screw which holds the boiler on --seems to me that problem could have been solved after 50 years. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:49:34 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Bowser T1 Content-Length: 3926 Hi All, I have comments on three seperate T-1 messages, so I've pooled them in one note! Here they are: Roger asked >I'm still hoping to find an N-scale T-1 some day........ That or I'm >going to have to learn to scratch build........ Hey here's a >challenge! No offense to Joe Zappa - he's got enough projects for us - but GHQ models has offered 2 outstanding PRR N-scale "conversions" so far, the L-1 mike and the FF-2 electric. They may be the folks to talk to! mdimaio@ids.net said >Let me be the guy who throws cold water on the T-1 . I own two >Bowser T-1s which i built so I am entitled!! Although it can pull >almost anything, it did and does have several liabilities. It has a >lousy drive train. After use one has to always check those two >screws which hold the boiler on the motors. Additionally one has to >pick the unit up with care because these screws can let go!!! Finally >aesthetically, it lurches around curves!!! Start the flames!!! No flames, but it is unfortunate that Mr. English truely believes that his drive train is superior to anything else out there. In my conversation with him at Madison, he was adamant - NO CAN MOTORS! NO GEAR TOWERS! (his emphasis) He doesn't see DCC conversion as important. Just about everyone who has one of the T-1s complains that it "hunts". I believe this is because of the articulation. When I get my new model, I will be looking at making the frame rigid. This will increase minimum radius, but will enhance its running characteristics. BTW, I think that modeling the "high" skirt version was required to allow the drive train to swing, so if you model larger skirts...Likewise, I will use a single can motor, with appropriate gear towers for BOTH sets of drivers, a multifuntion DCC decoder and a DALLEE sound card (only because Sountraxx does not yet have the T-1 whistle). Because of the room in the boiler, I plan to mount a speaker under the stack (pointed UP) and one over the drivers (pointed DOWN) for maximum effect. The DALLEE sound card and decoder will fit in the tender. Jerry asked: >The comment was made that the T-1 was a later variant. Was it #2 or >#3...check the location of the keystone plate and the presence of the >portholes. I believe the Bowser model is #3, very little skirting, no portholes, and the top of the skirting is actually a bit higher than the earlier versions. I looked at the old vewrsion in the Bowser catalog last night, along with as many T-1 photos as I could find. It looks like the conversion to the T-1 prototypes could be a fair amount of work, while the "as built" immediate post war version will be easier, but may still require some major shell surgery to adjust the skirts ("Honey, what are you doing?" - "Oh, just lowering her skirts" - yeah, this could get interesting!!). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 10:26:50 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1231 On 3/11/98 10:49 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >Jerry asked: >>The comment was made that the T-1 was a later variant. Was it #2 or >>#3...check the location of the keystone plate and the presence of the >>portholes. > >I believe the Bowser model is #3, very little skirting, no portholes, and >the top of the skirting is actually a bit higher than the earlier versions. >I looked at the old vewrsion in the Bowser catalog last night, along with >as many T-1 photos as I could find. Too bad, I liked the portholes...thought it (and the nose) were two elements "vital" to the personality of this unit. Oh well, it'll only run on a 20 foot section of my layout (Harrisburg west to staging) so I shouldn't lose sleep over it. My K4s'll handle the Baltimore to Harrisburg jaunt. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 11:33:15 CST Subject: More on T1's... Content-Length: 1682 Hi, all, Yes, I am quite confident that the Bowser version is the #3 version of the T1. I am also fairly certain that Bowser developed this model to do what most of their other steamers do - negotiate 18" radius track. Therefore the final version was essential because the skirting would have restricted the movement of the articulated engines. I have noticed mine hunt and I believe it is mainly due to the body being attached to the frame at only two places on the top. Maybe one could create some sort of side buffers to help the front engine push the boiler around curves more smoothly or stay more steady on straight track but I fear this would also restrict the articulation. If I hadn't already gone to the trouble of tweaking a Bowser T1 until it ran right, I would probably go with the new boiler. RE the two screws coming out, if Iremember right, I put a dab of Walthers Goo in the motor frame screw holes and that has kept my screws from coming loose. With all the imperfections, the T1 sure looks cool and can pull a nice train. I take it to modular meets and it never fails to grab the attention of the people, even non-SPFers. In fact, for you Chicago-area folks, I'll have two modules at the modular show in LaGrange on March 21 - say hello if you're there. It's a great show. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:50:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Content-Length: 5335 Here is food for thought. I have fooled with sound for years. I have built the sound systems published by Kalmbach and have the first edition of the steam edition from Soundtraxx. Comments on chuff. Unless one uses a cam, prefect synchronization with the drivers is impossible. Only a nit picker, however, wouild complain about this. I have found cams to be more trouble than they are worth. With articulated units, however, due to the very nature of the sett up of the drivers and the valve-gear, one looses a steady chuff very quickly and only gets white noise at top speed!!!For this reason, I run my T-1 with a single chuff unit, not prototypical, but better than white noise. Speaker is mounted in the tender. > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:49:34 -0600 > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Subject: Bowser T1 > Hi All, > > I have comments on three seperate T-1 messages, so I've pooled them in one > note! Here they are: > > Roger asked > >I'm still hoping to find an N-scale T-1 some day........ That or I'm > >going to have to learn to scratch build........ Hey here's a > >challenge! > > No offense to Joe Zappa - he's got enough projects for us - but GHQ models > has offered 2 outstanding PRR N-scale "conversions" so far, the L-1 mike > and the FF-2 electric. They may be the folks to talk to! > > mdimaio@ids.net said > >Let me be the guy who throws cold water on the T-1 . I own two > >Bowser T-1s which i built so I am entitled!! Although it can pull > >almost anything, it did and does have several liabilities. It has a > >lousy drive train. After use one has to always check those two > >screws which hold the boiler on the motors. Additionally one has to > >pick the unit up with care because these screws can let go!!! Finally > >aesthetically, it lurches around curves!!! Start the flames!!! > > No flames, but it is unfortunate that Mr. English truely believes that his > drive train is superior to anything else out there. In my conversation > with him at Madison, he was adamant - NO CAN MOTORS! NO GEAR TOWERS! (his > emphasis) He doesn't see DCC conversion as important. > > Just about everyone who has one of the T-1s complains that it "hunts". I > believe this is because of the articulation. When I get my new model, I > will be looking at making the frame rigid. This will increase minimum > radius, but will enhance its running characteristics. BTW, I think that > modeling the "high" skirt version was required to allow the drive train to > swing, so if you model larger skirts...Likewise, I will use a single can > motor, with appropriate gear towers for BOTH sets of drivers, a > multifuntion DCC decoder and a DALLEE sound card (only because Sountraxx > does not yet have the T-1 whistle). Because of the room in the boiler, I > plan to mount a speaker under the stack (pointed UP) and one over the > drivers (pointed DOWN) for maximum effect. The DALLEE sound card and > decoder will fit in the tender. > > Jerry asked: > >The comment was made that the T-1 was a later variant. Was it #2 or > >#3...check the location of the keystone plate and the presence of the > >portholes. > > I believe the Bowser model is #3, very little skirting, no portholes, and > the top of the skirting is actually a bit higher than the earlier versions. > I looked at the old vewrsion in the Bowser catalog last night, along with > as many T-1 photos as I could find. It looks like the conversion to the > T-1 prototypes could be a fair amount of work, while the "as built" > immediate post war version will be easier, but may still require some major > shell surgery to adjust the skirts ("Honey, what are you doing?" - "Oh, > just lowering her skirts" - yeah, this could get interesting!!). > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and > Director, Nucleic Acid Services > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > ******************************************************************************** > Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:17:43 EST Subject: RE: More on T1 Content-Length: 1647 >Yes, I am quite confident that the Bowser version is the #3 version of the >T1. I am also fairly certain that Bowser developed this model to do what >most of their other steamers do - negotiate 18" radius track. Therefore >the final version was essential because the skirting would have restricted >the movement of the articulated engines. I have noticed mine hunt and I >believe it is mainly due to the body being attached to the frame at only >two places on the top. Maybe one could create some sort of side buffers to >help the front engine push the boiler around curves more smoothly or stay >more steady on straight track but I fear this would also restrict the >articulation. If I hadn't already gone to the trouble of tweaking a Bowser >T1 until it ran right, I would probably go with the new boiler. RE the two >screws coming out, if Iremember right, I put a dab of Walthers Goo in the >motor frame screw holes and that has kept my screws from coming loose. >With all the imperfections, the T1 sure looks cool and can pull a nice >train. I take it to modular meets and it never fails to grab the attention >of the people, even non-SPFers. In fact, for you Chicago-area folks, I'll >have two modules at the modular show in LaGrange on March 21 - say hello if >you're there. It's a great show. Anyone running HO on an 18" Radius track, isn't modeling, but rather playwith toys. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:57:44 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Bowser T-1 Content-Length: 1180 Dick Taylor wrote: > No flames from me. > For its time though, it was state of the art. That was a 50's answer > to > a P2K or a Kato! Hello Dick, I enjoyed your comments on the PennLine/Bowser! Especially the part about lurching around curves. HA! I agree with the idea that you could use the T-1 for purposes other than pulling trains........pulling stumps is another useful feature....... I hear you about those $1000 brass engines. We have a club member with a georgeous collection of SP GS-4s. He always has to double head and pretend he's on a grade when he wants to pull a complete consist of the "Lark" or the "San Jaquin". I've got a great looking S-2 Steam Turbine in Brass and it needs traction tires badly. Slips like the dickens and can barely pull any amount of freight. Time to go plot my scratchbuilding procedures for my N-scale T-1...... anybody got a T-1 shell I can make a mold of.........? Cheers, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:42:07 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Content-Length: 2493 Hay Ho all, Been following the discussion about the T-1, and have a couple of comments: >Just about everyone who has one of the T-1s complains that it "hunts". I >believe this is because of the articulation. When I get my new model, I >will be looking at making the frame rigid. >They could do the one thing that steamers are supposed to do >better than anything before or since,- pull trains. I have yet to any HO >guage steam engine that come close to one of those brutes when it is a >matter of pulling train "A" up grade "B" ===== Last year, I attended a demo at a local NMRA meet by an English modeler (no pun intended!) who showed us the latest thinking in steam engineering over there in Great Britain. The British modelers are far ahead of us in steam design! Their standard practice is to have a fully equalized main frame with 3 point suspension. The axles ride in oiled bronze bushings. Power is transmitted from the rear axle through the side rods - so the assembly has to be rugged and exact. Finally, they spring load pilot and trailing trucks to help guide the main frame into the curves. This is essentially what the prototypes do. The 3 point suspension allows all the wheels to make firm contact for best adhesion. (This is why swivel truck diesels can out pull most steamers). The spring loaded pilot trucks keep the engine from nosing and reduces the tendancy to pick turnout points, etc. As a result, British steam locomotives are smooth running and powerful. You have to remember that most of the mass market steam available in this country are toys built in Taiwan or outdated technology from the dime store train set age. BTW: there are several equalization kits available from G.B. These include axle bushings, equalizing levers and instructions on how to design and build a frame from strip metal. Look in some of the fine scale modeling mags: I believe Rail Model Journal has them. Regards to all, Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:34:54 EST Subject: PRR CLASS R-2 STEAM LOCO CENTERSPREAD Content-Length: 395 A while back we had a thread about "never was" PRR steam power - I'd be interested in reactions to the painting of never was class R-2 in the most recent "Keystone" Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:57:01 -0500 Subject: Bowser Content-Length: 239 Does Bowser have a web site? ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Bowser Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:23:28 -0500 Content-Length: 1738 No, not yet. For Michael and the rest of the group, Checked with Bowser today.... The new T1 boiler, as I am told, will carry the old part number (# 1003). Also, the tender will be available seperately, and I am awaiting pricing info on both of these items. I was also told that the New T1 is single motored, with instructions and provisions for dual. In a related matter, Bill Reed at Alco Products (also no web site) has indicated that he will produce a 'repower' kit -dual motor, for the T1, but has no timeline yet. The T1 is indeed the post war # 3 version as others have assumed or indicated. (see previous posts) As Bowser has no web site, I would be happy to try to get any questions that anyone has, regarding their products. If there is enough interest, I will also look at selling the Alco Products re-power kits (discounted). For those not yet aquainted, they make some nice re-power kits using can motors for most everything out there...from Athearn to even the older Stewart models. (We will be using Alco motors in most of our projects ! ) Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ---------- > From: Michael DiMaio > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Bowser > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 4:57 PM > > Does Bowser have a web site? > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doc Morrow Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:39:11 EST Subject: magazines Content-Length: 372 I have 101 MAINLINE MODELER magazines for sale $100.00 plus $30.00 for shipping by snail mail. also 83 TRAIN magazines $50.00 plus postage. docmorrow@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Bowser T1 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:42:56 -0500 Content-Length: 441 Sorry, I forgot to mention.... The new T1 boiler may take a bit of extra effort to re-fit older versions with, as I was told it is a bit longer-more correct to scale, than the old one. Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:38:40 EST Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Content-Length: 817 In a message dated 98-03-11 09:54:41 EST, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << I have comments on three seperate T-1 messages, so I've pooled them in one note! Here they are: ...Likewise, I will use a single can motor, with appropriate gear towers for BOTH sets of drivers...>> Unfortunately, this will eliminate one of the salient features of the prototype that was accurately modelled by Bowser--the slipping of one set of drivers while the other set turns at normal speed. The constant moving in and out of sync is one of the interesting features of the duplex design. John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:51:24 EST Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Content-Length: 636 Greetings! I just recieved my Bowser T1 kit. I am very pleased. The new boiler and tender look great! Excellent detail with little cleanup. An impressive bag of super detail castings is included ( no super d kit is needed)and all the holes for the super -d are predrilled. Frame is now cast not milled. Two stone age DC 71s are included. I am looking forward to building it. Don Murphy, Westside Locomotive Works ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Server Update Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 21:29:57 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1480 Dear Pennsy Fans: This evening I migrated from my old web server software to a new product which will also enable the serving of databases...and much more. Although the installation seems to have gone well, I am unable to confirm any operation from behind my firewall. This is an anomoly that I will continue to try to rectify over the coming days. However, the activity logs lead me to believe the server is working properly. This will all be confirmed over the next few hours from a remote site. There is a possibility that page counters may have reset. If so, they will be reset to their count as of 24 hours ago (on backup). Also, I may need to change some coding on some of the forms. The need for this will be determined via trial and error. In conjunction with the change of web server is a change in FTP server. Those of you with FTP accounts will still use the same user name and password. However, when you connect, the site may appear different. If you notice anything else amis, please alert me. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:46:49 -0500 Content-Length: 1581 Don, (and group) I thought that this was supposed to be a two motor kit ! I guess it is since yours arrived today ! I will talk to Lee English tomorrow, as when I called today to confirm this, I was told by someone else at Bowser it was being released with only one ( motor ) - hence my earlier posting !! My apologies to all for this mis-information ! Maybe after you take a closer look, you would be kind enough to elaborate on this new T1 for all of us !! Thanks, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ---------- > From: Paintloco > To: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Cc: valleyln@erie.net > Subject: Re: Bowser T1 > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 8:51 PM > > Greetings! > > I just recieved my Bowser T1 kit. I am very pleased. The new boiler and tender > look great! Excellent detail with little cleanup. An impressive bag of super > detail castings is included ( no super d kit is needed)and all the holes for > the super -d are predrilled. Frame is now cast not milled. Two stone age DC > 71s are included. > I am looking forward to building it. > > Don Murphy, Westside Locomotive Works > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Old Penn Line/Bowser T1 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:59:51 -0500 Content-Length: 967 Some random comments on the Penn Line/Bowser T1. Since the box is long gone, I'm only sure that it is a T1 Yes the T1 did lurch on 22" min. rad. curves when I built it in the late 50's-early 60's. I didn't notice that on the newer layout with 30" min. rad. curves in the middle 60's. On the new layout, with 40" min. rad.curves, it is smooth as silk. I've had no trouble with screws falling out. I do have a tygon tube coupling between the two motor shaft extensions. Rigidizing the two engines will not solve the boiler overhang problem. It will only lengthen the chord the boiler forms with the arc as the engine rounds a curve, geometrically speaking. Although brass is beautiful, nothing pulls like a Bowser. Carl P. Izzo ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:59:10 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Crosby articles Content-Length: 767 Does anyone know the dates and issues of trains for all of the PRR Crosby articles in Trains magazine? The fellow who was offering the large collection of trains magazines for sale said he would copy them for me if I could give him the dates. I want to do this quick, before he sells the mags, they are a great deal! (wish I had the money,$50 for close to 20 years worth of mags, not bad to start a good research library on!) Some of you were nice enough to send me the dates and titles before, but for the life of me I can't find them. Tom von Trott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:27:30 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: in the new "Keystone" Content-Length: 1280 among other things, in the middle of a reprint of an article from Fortune magazine from 1936 is a hand-drawn map of several miles from Swissvale to Trafford on the main line. Some interesting notes: a) I had always wondered about the PA 48 highway bridge over the Pitcairn yard; The structure was broken in the middle by a dirt mound up to the level of the road surface (hence making it two bridges, not one). This was apparently the other hump, the tracks going up and over the road on a bridge. (You can still see the other hump in the yard.) b) I had thought i saw some track along the north side of Turtle Creek in Pitcairn, near what is now a Sunoco station. Apparently track ran along the north side of the creek from SZ (Trafford) all the way to R (East Pittsburgh) c) They claim there was doodlebug service from Trafford to "Elrico" on the Turtle Creek branch. Anyone know where Elrico is? d) The configuration of the tracks at R so passenger trains could run on the north pair of tracks was quite interesting. For what it's worth... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:34:08 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Content-Length: 477 Did I miss something here? Several posts refer to the new T1 as a single motor model, and Don unpacks his and finds 2 (two) somewhat neolithic DC-71's. Is it a 2 motored unit or is Bowser setting a new standard in spareing parts? Regards, Dick Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:40:24 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Content-Length: 1145 Liberty wrote: > Don, (and group) > > I thought that this was supposed to be a two motor kit ! I guess it > is > since yours arrived today ! I will talk to Lee English tomorrow, as > when I > called today to confirm this, I was told by someone else at Bowser it > was > being released with only one ( motor ) - hence my earlier posting !! > > My apologies to all for this mis-information ! > > Maybe after you take a closer look, you would be kind enough to > elaborate > on this new T1 for all of us !! > > Thanks, > > Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions Hello Joe, You mentioned you might offer the Alco remotor kits for the Bowser T1.... I would be very interested in putting can motors on my T1 since the bearings on my motors are starting to wear and the shafts rattle a little up and down as well as back and forth. Fortunately, the drivers are only two years old. Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:59:14 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico Content-Length: 1244 Greetings to Derrick and the list: > b) I had thought i saw some track along the north side of Turtle Creek in Pitcairn, near what is now a Sunoco station. Apparently track ran along the north side of the creek from SZ (Trafford) all the way to R (East Pittsburgh) This was the East Pittsburgh Branch, 5.55 miles long with 1.38 miles (in 1936) of second (double) track and 19.57 miles of sidings. At or near its west end, it connected with the Union Railroad. > c) They claim there was doodlebug service from Trafford to "Elrico" on the > Turtle Creek branch. Anyone know where Elrico is? Elrico was a non-agency station (in 1945) with no siding (also in 1945) that was situated 8.6 miles north of Export and 5.5 miles north of Delmont. It was 18.4 miles from the junction with the Pittsburgh Division Main Line at Trafford, and 3.5 miles from the branch's junction with the Conemaugh Division main line at Saltsburg. The nearest agency station was Slickville. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:27:38 -0500 Content-Length: 2426 Roger and the rest of the group, Actually, I mentioned that Alco Products is PLANNING to make a repower kit for the T1, it is NOT available yet, and they don't know when it will be. The latter part of my comment was inreference to all of the OTHER repower kits that Alco has. Now, I don't know 'bout the rest of you, but I am building my T1 when it gets here,...............I will just re-do it whenever Alco offers the new set up! I will post to the group as soon as there is any news of availability or dates from Alco Products !! On another note, we are setting up to become a Wangrow System One dealer, and also a SoundTraxx dealer, so when considering a purchase of any of these products, I hope you will keep us in mind !! We will be offering component installations as well. We will be offering these systems and parts well below MSRP ! I hope that this clears things up. Thanks, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ---------- > From: Roger Elliott > To: Liberty > Cc: Paintloco ; PRR-talk@dsop.com; liberty@infonline.net > Subject: Re: Bowser T1 > Date: Thursday, March 12, 1998 12:40 AM > > Liberty wrote: > > > Don, (and group) > > > > I thought that this was supposed to be a two motor kit ! I guess it > > is > > since yours arrived today ! I will talk to Lee English tomorrow, as > > when I > > called today to confirm this, I was told by someone else at Bowser it > > was > > being released with only one ( motor ) - hence my earlier posting !! > > > > My apologies to all for this mis-information ! > > > > Maybe after you take a closer look, you would be kind enough to > > elaborate > > on this new T1 for all of us !! > > > > Thanks, > > > > Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions > > Hello Joe, > You mentioned you might offer the Alco remotor kits for the Bowser > T1.... I would be very interested in putting can motors on my T1 since > the bearings on my motors are starting to wear and the shafts rattle a > little up and down as well as back and forth. Fortunately, the drivers > are only two years old. > > Thanks, > Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:16:21 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Bowser T1 Content-Length: 851 Roger Elliott wrote: > > the bearings on my motors are starting to wear and the shafts rattle a > little up and down as well as back and forth. Fortunately, the > drivers are only two years old. > If you are up to this sort of thing, I have been told that custom builder Gerry White used to fit bearings on new motors more closely by squeezing them at the ends in a vise or press to shorten them slightly and thus also reduce the hole diameter, then ream them back to desired size. While he did this on new motors, it might be applicable also to old bearings. Admittedly, I have never tried it. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:31:53 +0000 From: J Bruce Andrews Subject: T1 - What next? Content-Length: 487 Given the volume of interest in the re-release of the T1 by Bowser, I can't help wondering how much interest there would be in a Q2, if one where to be offered in the same price range. Surely somebody out there runs freight as well as passenger service. Bruce Andrews ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:37:45 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Bowser T1-driver slip Content-Length: 2118 >Unfortunately, this will eliminate one of the salient features of the >prototype that was accurately modelled by Bowser--the slipping of one set of >drivers while the other set turns at normal speed. The constant moving in and >out of sync is one of the interesting features of the duplex design. John, Good point! and, I might point out that with a soundtraxx system set up with a cam to activate the chuff, driver slip is accompanied by appropriately increased chuff rates. BTW, since the T-1 was a rigid frame, thus distributing the weight over ALL the drivers fairly evenly, does anyone know if the front or back engine slipped first? On articulated locos, the front engine almost always slipped first, as it was very difficult to have as much weight on it as the back engine. Finally, donning my asbestos suit, I want to make a comment with respect to the naming of the T-1. If the PRR had followed its OWN naming practices, the T-1 SHOULD really be the R-2!!!!!!!! (since the S class consisted of both the 6-4-4-6 and 6-8-6). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: T1 - What next? Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 10:03:23 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 732 On 3/12/98 5:31 AM, J Bruce Andrews (bandrews@apdevint.mv.com) wrote: >Given the volume of interest in the re-release of the T1 by Bowser, I >can't help wondering how much interest there would be in a Q2, if one >where to be offered in the same price range. Q2, S1, ... At least Liberty Model Productions is giving us a K5! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:21:09 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: Bowser T1-driver slip/T1 should have been R2 Content-Length: 1027 ---"Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > >Unfortunately, this will eliminate one of the salient features of the > >prototype that was accurately modelled by Bowser--the slipping of one set of > >drivers while the other set turns at normal speed. The constant moving in and > >out of sync is one of the interesting features of the duplex design. > > John, > > the T-1 SHOULD really be the R-2!!!!!!!! (since the S class consisted of > both the 6-4-4-6 and 6-8-6). > Amen brother. And 4-4-6-4 and 4-6-4-4 were both class Q (although I can't remember which was Q-1). Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:32:05 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [FS HO] Rivarossi E8s PRR and Atlas C425 SP&S shell Content-Length: 627 Hi, I have the following items for sale. (1) Rivarossi E8A PRR Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (Brunswick Green according to the box), powered, immaculate, test run only. (2) Rivarossi E8A PRR Tuscan Red, powered, used, one has missing horn. (1) Rivarossi E8B PRR Tuscan Red, dummy, used (1) Atlas C425 Spokane Portland & Seattle shell only Buyer pays shipping... Make me an offer. Thanks -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 11:47:10 CST Subject: T1's... Content-Length: 1121 Hi, all, Slippage for the T1 was definitely in the front engine. All the videos I've seen, puls first hand recollections, agree that that was where the problem lay. As to slippage in the model, the darned Bowser is too heavy to slip very much. In the model I have, purchased partially assembled from another modeler, the two motors were not coupled so I naively ran it that way - until the one motor started to over-heat because it was turning faster than the other. Just as with the real thing, slippage might be fun for the SPF but not for the machine or the crew. My solution (too bad the PRR never found one) was to connect the two motors with a NWSL ball-and-cup drive shaft. Now everything runs great, and if I ever need any stumps pulled... PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:17:35 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: Bowser T1-driver slip Content-Length: 1376 Here's my 2 cents. Remember, you get what you pay for! Someone a while back noted that cam operated sound sound systems were tricky to set upand if not done right, generated "white noise" The T's, if I remember correctly, sounded like they were wide open( compared to conventional steamers) while loafing along at 30. At speed, they sounded like "white noise". I don't remember a pattern as to which of the drivers slipped first on the old Penn Lines. My dad, (also a SPF), usually had his engines ballaced to within an inch of their lives with so much additional lead, nothing could make them slip!. Mine are more "conventional" but I don't remember a pattern. (They are temporally out of service due to lack of track. My layout is being expanded(!) A Bowser Q-2? Something that could really pull a train? Count me IN on that one! I believe the Q-1 was the 4-6-4-4, a silly idea when you think about it., and the Q-2 was the 4-4-6-4. Like Mary Poppins, "..almost prefect...' , but the "almost" was fatal. (opinion) T1 should have been R-2? Probably true, I never really considered that. Regards, Dick Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:33:36 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Bowser T1-driver slip Content-Length: 489 > T1 should have been R-2? Probably true, I never really considered that. There's an article in the middle of the current Keystone which suggests an alternate pattern for how "late" Pennsy steam might have developed, interestingly. I can summarize if people care. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Web Server Still Down Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 12:38:52 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 686 Yes, the web server is still down. Thanks to those that are notifying me, but I am very aware that it is unreachable. I am working on the problem. Instead of a "NetCloak" error, everyone will now see a "Firewall" error. Stay tuned. The listserv is unaffected, so keep on talkin'! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:04:51 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: PRR CLASS R-2 STEAM LOCO CENTERSPREAD Content-Length: 1006 Hi all, The R2 in the painting in the Keystone is a beautiful locomotive, and History might have been different if PRR had built some. It's all kind of fun, but I guess I'm more into the actual history, so I was rather surprised that Blardone decided to include the painting and the accompanying article in the Keystone. Jim On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, VVA249 wrote: > A while back we had a thread about "never was" PRR steam power - > I'd be interested in reactions to the painting of never was class R-2 in the > most recent "Keystone" > Dick Ross > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: The Keystone (was Re: PRR CLASS R-2 STEAM LOCO CENTERSPREAD) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 14:25:07 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1262 On 3/12/98 3:04 PM, James R. Hunter (jhunter@iupui.edu) wrote: > The R2 in the painting in the Keystone is a beautiful locomotive, >and History might have been different if PRR had built some. It's all >kind of fun, but I guess I'm more into the actual history, so I was >rather surprised that Blardone decided to include the >painting and >the accompanying article in the Keystone. Overall, I was very disappointed with this issue. Three quarters of it was a reprint from Fortune magazine that one can access elsewhere...if they want to. I await each Keystone with baited breath...expecting a new wealth of knowledge and as-yet-unseen photos. This issue didn't offer any of that. However, it's still an excellent quality publication and easily worth the PRRT&HS annual membership fee. (Besides, it beats the hell out of their web site!) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: the scoop on Bowser T1 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:51:21 -0500 Content-Length: 1353 Okay all, I said I would get some straight answers from the"Horses Mouth", I have !! The new T1 kit is a 'deluxe' kit, and as such, COMES WITH the needed detail parts !! The former T1 detail set is no longer ! - Note, for those of you who have already sent your payments in, you will receive a REFUND !!! Isn't that some good news !! For those wishing to retrofit older T1's - You will sacrifice some weight, as the new boiler (part # 1003) is a fair bit lighter !! Also, it has ALL the holes PRE-DRILLED for the detail parts. The retail price of the new boiler is $ 49.95, we will be selling this part for $ 42.00 The new tender is cast (part # 150008) and sells for $ 39.95 retail. Our price on this item is $ 34.00 Also, it is confirmed...The new T1 is equipped with DUAL MOTORS. So, for those who have not yet placed an order for the new T1, our price of $ 160.00 (plus shipping) is all you need to pay for a beauty of a kit !!! Again, I would like to apologize for the earlier confusion. I should have talked to Lee right from the start ! Sincerely, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: more questions Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:22:40 EST Content-Length: 302 More questions on http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Questions/new.html -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:13:27 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: NEWS from Bowser ! Content-Length: 2119 Ron Dugas wrote: > Hi Roger, > > If you're really going to scratch a T1 I'd get one of the HO'ers to > send > you the assembly drawings from their Bowser T1 to study. > > My T1 "appears" to be sheet brass fabrication, though I wouldn't swear > > to it. An unusual feature is that the engines are like the proto. The > rear engine is rigid to the frame while the front engine swivels (but > not very much!). T1 could be a worse rail straightener than the S1. > > If Joe does do the T1 I will definately buy a shell at least. > Especially > if he does the early version. > > I'll collect up what I have in the way of T1 info and send you what I > find. I just got a copy of "Loco Profile #24-Pennsylvania DuplexII" > that > has a bunch of info on the T1. Guy I got it from had another at $6.00 > if > you are interested and he hasn't sold it yet. > > Talk to you soon, > > Ron. Hi Ron, I'll probably use my PennLine T1 as a model for the construction of my N-scale T1. The drivers from the ConCor Hudson are the same size scale-wise as the T1 and the valve gear will only need a little modification. The hard part will be altering the chassis. I think if I cut up two chassis, or make a new set of chassis if I can find a machinist or someone with the tools to make them. I'll probably have both of them swivel just like the Bowser. The other thing I'll have to do is to figure out which driver to remove. I think the pilot and trailing trucks will work as well. Bachman has an 8-wheel truck tender that I can alter fairly easily. If you know anyone who has made chassis or done some remotoring, it would help. The body I'll probably use a piece-by-piece construction. If I had a milling machine, I'd carve it out. And I'm thinking Pre-war with cut outs for the pistons to have room for swinging out on curves. Any comments? Cheers, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Is Web Site Working? Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 18:34:31 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 824 >From my vantage point on the inside of my Firewall, the web server "appears" to be operating now. But is it for you folks? Can you access http://prr.dsop.com? If so, are you also getting the "KC" logo and the "Grif Teller" painting at the top of the page? Is the counter at the bottom of the page "35xxx" (rather than under "100")? Please respond direct, not to the list. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Brandon" Subject: Re: Is Web Site Working? Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:06:55 -0500 Content-Length: 1247 Yes, It works. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Thursday, March 12, 1998 7:01 PM Subject: Is Web Site Working? >From my vantage point on the inside of my Firewall, the web server >"appears" to be operating now. But is it for you folks? > >Can you access http://prr.dsop.com? > >If so, are you also getting the "KC" logo and the "Grif Teller" painting >at the top of the page? > >Is the counter at the bottom of the page "35xxx" (rather than under >"100")? > >Please respond direct, not to the list. Thanks. > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:44:19 EST Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico Content-Length: 458 In the 1923 C.T.1000C, it shows a passing siding at Elrico, PA. It also shows some customers nearby, Irwin Gas Coal Co. No. 4, Louise Colliery No. 2 & No. 1 (Howard Gas Coal Co.) and three miles farther Seehart Coal Co. Dennis Sautters ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Edgemoor Yard to Delmarva trackage (fwd) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 1:32:53 EST Content-Length: 713 > When Pennsy trains (and Conrail for that matter) ran from Edgemoor Yard to > the Delmarva lines, how were they routed? Did they have to go along the > NEC, then New Castle secondary to get to the Delmarva main line? Either routing was possible out the south side of Edge Moor Yard (note the Pennsy spelling), though I suspect NC Secondary was the commoner of the two. Trackage is still all in today, and thanks now to the I-495 bypass around Wilmington, _very_ easily visible! -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 12 Mar 1998 08:28:05 -0500 From: "Gilleran, Brian" Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/11/98 -Reply Content-Length: 328 Could it possibly be that I'm the only one who doesn't know what DGLE stands for? Help! Attack of the Acronyms! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:38:31 EST Subject: Re: T1 - What next? Q-2 or J1 Content-Length: 394 Guys, Add to that list a Q-2 and a long promised ex-Arbor Models J-1. I heard sometime back that Bowser got those Dies too. Greg Martin Wactching from LINES way out WEST ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:18:19 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/11/98 -Reply Content-Length: 693 Greetings, Stands for "Brunswick Green"! At 08:28 AM 3/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Could it possibly be that I'm the only one who >doesn't know what DGLE stands for? > >Help! Attack of the Acronyms! > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:05:25 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/11/98 -Reply Content-Length: 1009 If I remember right from reading the posts in here DGLE=Dark Green Locomotive Enamel William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator Technical Support & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access bbs.bluemoon.net - Bulletin Board System http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD On 12 Mar 1998, Gilleran, Brian wrote: > > Could it possibly be that I'm the only one who > doesn't know what DGLE stands for? > > Help! Attack of the Acronyms! > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:20:22 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: East Pittsburg Branch, Elrico Content-Length: 929 Thu, 12 Mar 1998 Dan Cupper wrote: >> They claim there was doodlebug service from Trafford to "Elrico" on the > Turtle Creek branch. Anyone know where Elrico is? << >From the Official Guide of the Railways, January 1930: Table 138 - Turtle Creek branch Stations: Trafford (0.0); Export (10.0); White Valley (11.3); Delmont (12.9); Trees Mills (15.2); Slickville (17.9); ELRICO (18.7); Turtle Creek Br Jct (Saltburg) (22.3). Service: dep Trafford 4:51 am Mon-Sat to Elrico, 11:45 am Sat only to TCBJ, 5:08 pm Mon-Sat to Elrico, 6:30 pm Mon-Fri to TCBJ. dep Elrico 6:35 am, 6:32 pm Mon-Sat. dp TCBJ 5:00 am Mon-Sat, 1:22 pm Sat only. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 10:17 13-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 13 Mar 98 12:49:04 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: T1 - What next? Q-2 or J1 Content-Length: 2820 --====52534853545554485248===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" My vote -- the J-1/J-1a, hands down. Far more common than the Q-2, existed almost until the very end of steam on PRR, and were much more widely used than the Q's. I know, I know, not a PRR design and therefore to be looked down upon, but far more long-lived than PRR's 'late' steam designs. The J's shared tracks with GP-9's, while the Q's and T's were sitting in dead lines waiting for the torch. When did PRR stop operating the duplexes? -- Doug Drew TGREGMRTN wrote: >Guys, > Add to that list a Q-2 and a long promised ex-Arbor Models J-1. I heard >sometime back that Bowser got those Dies too. > Greg Martin >Wactching from LINES way out WEST > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====52534853545554485248===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My vote -- the J-1/J-1a, hands down.

Far more common than the Q-2, existed almost until the very end of steam on PRR, and were much more widely used than the Q's.

I know, I know, not a PRR design and therefore to be looked down upon, but far more long-lived than PRR's 'late' steam designs.

The J's shared tracks with GP-9's, while the Q's and T's were sitting in dead lines waiting for the torch.

When did PRR stop operating the duplexes?

-- Doug Drew

TGREGMRTN wrote:
>Guys,
> Add to that list a Q-2 and a long promised ex-Arbor Models J-1. I heard
>sometime back that Bowser got those Dies too.
> Greg Martin
>Wactching from LINES way out WEST
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====52534853545554485248===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: All Lists Now Searchable Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 13:06:21 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1614 Sorry about all the server instability the past few days. The simple task of changing from one web server to another has proven to be anything but that...simple! Anyway, it will be worth it. It will enable me to bring online many databases. I already have the data for Cabin Cars and Diesels, so stay tuned. Operators are working on data entry of Steam and Electrics. I'll also add Passenger equipment. Another site has Freight cars done, so I won't "compete" unless my interface proves to be more desirable. By the way, my rosters will have links to individual unit photos as well! Want a taste? Knew you would... Check out http://204.186.21.83/forms/email/index.html This form allows searching of all four railroad lists served by my server. It includes all posts made to "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk" since last August, when I migrated to my current listserv software, LetterRip. Although I have digests from earlier, they are not directly importable. I may be able to convert them, however. The archive also includes all posts to "PRRMO" and "PRR2000" since inception. Permanent links to this archive will be placed on my web site shortly. Enjoy! (while you can!) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:09:52 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux Content-Length: 1197 Thanks to Dan Cupper and Dennis Sautters for info on these bits. Some other related stuff... I now recall (after driving past this morning and thinking about it) that I've seen a picture of a siding from what must have been the East Pittsburgh branch into an old brickyard at the western edge of the borough of Pitcairn. Currently an apartment building stands on that spot. I also recall that the picture showed the siding crossing then not-yet-removed Pittsburgh Railways line to Trafford (most of which ran alongside route 130, an amalgam of double and single track, side of the road and street running, and most of whose right of way remains untouched) I suppose this weekend or next I'll head out the Turtle Creek Branch to try to find Elrico (I've traced it most of the way to Saltsburg, with the exception of 2 short stretches) Also I suppose I'll take a walk on the old hump and see if there are any traces of what was there before, but I doubt it. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: ListServ Upgrade 20% Funded Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 13:36:32 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1205 I have received one donation towards the LetterRip (listserv) upgrade. The amount was $20 and satisfies 20% of the $99 upgrade cost. Again, this is an upgrade that is not "needed", but offers many convenience features for subscribers. I will purchase it with donations, if enough come through. See http://prr.dsop.com/support.html for donor information. Thanks. FYI: I just invested $400 in a second machine to share the load. It's not yet online. I also spent $160 on a new DNS server (software) which resolves much faster. This went online a few weeks ago. The new web/database server cost $150. This is currently being implemented. So you see, I am investing quite a bit of my own money in this venture. I don't want it to sound like I am just out to make a buck (via donations)! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:32:25 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: list dead?````` Content-Length: 360 Greetings, Last message sent was returned, have had no messages today is the list down??? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:37:44 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: something funny Content-Length: 1268 ** TOP 10 REASONS RAILFANNING IS BETTER THAN DEER HUNTING: *** 10. Train lovers don't get mad at you for shooting "Thomas The Tank Engine". 9. You can't use a scanner to tell when deer are getting close. 8. No arguments when two people shoot the same train at the same time. 7. No boring Deer Hunting stories. 6. Nobody cares if you use a railroad crossing sign to "sight in" your camera. 5. Three words: "Hunting License Fee". 4. SD90MAC's don't need to be field dressed. 3. Working models of deer? Yeah, right. 2. There's no limit on how many trains you're allowed to shoot. 1. Unless they're really dumb, your buddies won't mistake you for The Southwest Chief. William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator Technical Support & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access bbs.bluemoon.net - Bulletin Board System http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 13 Mar 98 17:20:33 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux Content-Length: 2093 Derrick J Brashear wrote: >I suppose this weekend or next I'll head out the Turtle Creek Branch to try to >find Elrico (I've traced it most of the way to Saltsburg, with the exception of >2 short stretches) > >Also I suppose I'll take a walk on the old hump and see if there are any traces >of what was there before, but I doubt it. > A recent issue (December 97 or January 98, I think) of Railpace had a good article about railfanning the area from East Pittsburgh to the former Radebaugh tunnel, complete with their usual annotated topographic maps 'borrowed' from the USGS. Another heartbreaking Pittsburgh-area photo story -- what was once a bustling, smoky double-hump yard is now mostly an empty field. At least CR/NS is turning part of it into an intermodal terminal. What were once headquarters and plants of industrial giants now lay abandoned or are being converted to condos or shopping malls. The ones, that is, that haven't been torn down. I had thought Pitcairn was the name of the yard, not the borough. Named after a former superintendant of the Pittsburgh Division, Robert Pitcairn. I thought the yard was located in the town/borough/principality/grand duchy of "Wall". Yet a search on Mapquest verifies that yes, Dougie, there IS a Pitcairn, PA. Where's the boundary, the river? If so, then the yard really WAS in Wall. By the way, the 'East Pittsburgh branch' was formerly the mainline, before Cassatt's four-tracking and general straightening of the division. The old main disappears and reappears masquerading as a winding secondary or industrial track all the way from there to Lilly, up on the Mountain. I hope you will share what you find on your jaunt with the list. This Port Perry-Radebaugh area is one of my favorite parts of the PRR, and the one I would model if I had a million and unlimited time! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:47:19 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux Content-Length: 2605 (apologies for the lack of capitalization. my shift key is, uh, sticking right now so i'm ignoring it as much as i can) > A recent issue (December 97 or January 98, I think) of Railpace had a > good article about railfanning the area from East Pittsburgh to the former > Radebaugh tunnel, complete with their usual annotated topographic maps > 'borrowed' from the USGS. i'm from the area, so i didn't really learn much from it:-( > I had thought Pitcairn was the name of the yard, not the borough. Named > after a former superintendant of the Pittsburgh Division, Robert Pitcairn. > I thought the yard was located in the town/borough/principality/grand > duchy of "Wall". Yet a search on Mapquest verifies that yes, Dougie, there IS > a Pitcairn, PA. Where's the boundary, the river? If so, then the yard > really WAS in Wall. creek, not river, and i recall most of the yard is in monroeville and north versailles, and almost none, if any in wall. monroeville i think actually entirely surrounds pitcairn (the borough). > By the way, the 'East Pittsburgh branch' was formerly the mainline, > before Cassatt's four-tracking and general straightening of the division. The > old main disappears and reappears masquerading as a winding secondary or > industrial track all the way from there to Lilly, up on the Mountain. the old bridge over the stretch of the original mainline just west of irwin was recently removed, and is being replaced with a concrete culvert. most of the rest of that stretch if not all has had its track removed. the stretch east of pitcairn yards became pa 993 as far as Ardara years ago. the next spot east i can think of is at radebaugh, where the old tunnel is north of the cut which is a daylighted tunnel. east of greensburg, actually northeast of... was i think a short stretch of relocated track, but i need to dig out old maps and check. at donohoe, carney's hill, if you will, is a stretch of the old main to the south of the current main... there's an odd flat spot on donohoe road where the line corssed, then went into a tunnel, rejoining the current main further east. into latrobe, near st. vincents, the line ran a few hundred feet south of its current location, and you can tell where if you look. nothing i know of from there til at least johnstown for what its worth -d ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:22:38 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: DGLE? Content-Length: 812 >Could it possibly be that I'm the only one who >doesn't know what DGLE stands for? > >Help! Attack of the Acronyms! ===== The full meaning is Dull Grungey Layer of Emissions; which refers to the soot and grime that settles on everything in some of the smokestack towns like Pittsburg. Or am I mistaken? Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:44:35 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux Content-Length: 418 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > (apologies for the lack of capitalization. my shift key is, uh, sticking right > now so i'm ignoring it as much as i can) > no prob, just sign as archie s bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Bowser T1-driver slip Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:50:15 -0500 Content-Length: 877 > Good point! and, I might point out that with a soundtraxx system set up > with a cam to activate the chuff, driver slip is accompanied by > appropriately increased chuff rates. BTW, since the T-1 was a rigid frame, > thus distributing the weight over ALL the drivers fairly evenly, does > anyone know if the front or back engine slipped first? On articulated > locos, the front engine almost always slipped first, as it was very > difficult to have as much weight on it as the back engine. I seem to remember watching a video (The Pennsy and More???) where T-1's where accelerating trains out of Chicago and the front engines where slipping. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:46:37 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: DGLE? Content-Length: 1267 Greetings to the group, DGLE stands for Dark Green Locomotive Enamal which is the PRR's official name for what most people call Brunswick Green. Though I really like Bob's answer. I have not been able to locate anywhere in official PRR publications the term Brunswick Green but DGLE shows up each time locomotive colors are addressed. Brunswick Green like diesel 'phases' are railfans'/modelers' terms. DGLE is a lot easier to type than Dark Gre... . Mike Bezilla and I have been on a crusade to rid the world of the term Brunswick Green when describing PRR's locomotive colors. Join the quest. Help us stamp our Brunswick Green once and for all! Drew R. McGhee Altoona (home of DGLE), PA >>Could it possibly be that I'm the only one who >>doesn't know what DGLE stands for? >> >>Help! Attack of the Acronyms! > >===== > >The full meaning is Dull Grungey Layer of Emissions; which refers to the >soot and grime that settles on everything in some of the smokestack towns >like Pittsburg. > >Or am I mistaken? > >Bob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: DGLE? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:15:03 -0500 Content-Length: 1052 Drew and all, Join in the crusade....... I have requested to Weaver Models, makers of Scalecoat and Scalecoat II, that they change the name on the paint bottles ! - I doubt anything will come of it, but at least I have tried. More can send this same request to Weaver via e-mail. (link through NMRA site) Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ---------- > From: Drew R. McGhee > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Cc: mxb13@psu.edu > Subject: Re: DGLE? > Date: Saturday, March 14, 1998 10:46 AM >SNIP< > DGLE is a lot easier to type than Dark Gre... . Mike Bezilla and I have > been on a crusade to rid the world of the term Brunswick Green when > describing PRR's locomotive colors. Join the quest. Help us stamp our > Brunswick Green once and for all! > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona (home of DGLE), PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 14:08:50 EST Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux Content-Length: 1887 In a message dated 98-03-13 17:21:29 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I had thought Pitcairn was the name of the yard, not the borough. Named after a former superintendant of the Pittsburgh Division, Robert Pitcairn. I thought the yard was located in the town/borough/principality/grand duchy of "Wall". Yet a search on Mapquest verifies that yes, Dougie, there IS a Pitcairn, PA. Where's the boundary, the river? If so, then the yard really WAS in Wall. >> Actually, the yard is nearly all in Monroeville. Pitcairn Borough is nearly surrounded by Monroeville. Turtle Creek (the stream not the Borough) is the boundary near Pitcairn (the yard). Only part of the east bound receiving yard (in later years this became a autocarrier to truck transfer yard) was in Wall Borough. However all entrances to Pitcairn yard except the one which ran under the west bound hump were from Wall Avenue in Wall Borough. Mosside Blvd. Bridge (PA Rt 48 is all within Monroeville. While crews were housed in the YMCA at the yard, local "entertainment" was available at the Wall Hotel on Wall Avenue in Wall Borough. At last report this still is a topless bar. In summary, we have: Pitcairn yard, Pitcairn Borough, Turtle Creek, Turtle Creek Borough, Turtle Creek Branch, Monroeville, Wall Avenue, Wall Borough, Wall Hotel. Can also through in Wilmerding Borough. Don't be dismayed at least it is all in Allegheny County with its 130 municipalities. Of course we can really confuse things with Trafford. One borough in two counties. The County line runs through the borough. And remember "There is no Winkies in Wilmerding". Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:50:59 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch et al Content-Length: 878 SUVCW ORR wrote: > And remember "There is no Winkies in Wilmerding". > > Rich Orr If you remember Winkies, you are probably old enough to remember PRR Sharks in revenue service. Even Amtrak, in its current "drive-the- passengers-away-with-cardboard-food" mode, serves burgers that are better than Winkies. Every time I hear the subject of Amtrak possibly contracting out its food service in the dining cars, I wonder if passengers would end up with McDonalds (hardly gourmet but at least predictable) or with some bottom-feeding low bidder like the aforementioned. It WAS fun, though. Dan Cupper Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net John 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:40:45 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: DGLE vs Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1877 Greetings, Well, Drew, are we going to reprint all those books which refer to Brunswick Green. I think not. Many newcomers are reading those many books, no these are not official PRR documents, and see the term Brunswick Green. We have been thru this several times and I laud your efforts at pointing out the PRR itself did not use the term Brunswick green. It is confusing to many when they see the acronym "DGLE" which is not seen in the many unofficial books on the PRR. I'm afraid your voice is lost in a wilderness of published books. I just got thru painting some diesels in Brunswick Green after they dried they sure look like DGLE to me. Must be magic paint!!! Any comment on the descriptive term Tuscan Red? What do the official PRR documents label this color? Anyway both colors were a sight to remember. At 10:46 AM 3/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings to the group, > >DGLE stands for Dark Green Locomotive Enamal which is the PRR's official >name for what most people call Brunswick Green. Though I really like Bob's >answer. I have not been able to locate anywhere in official PRR >publications the term Brunswick Green but DGLE shows up each time >locomotive colors are addressed. Brunswick Green like diesel 'phases' are >railfans'/modelers' terms. > >DGLE is a lot easier to type than Dark Gre... . Mike Bezilla and I have >been on a crusade to rid the world of the term Brunswick Green when >describing PRR's locomotive colors. Join the quest. Help us stamp our >Brunswick Green once and for all! > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona (home of DGLE), PA > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:00:22 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: ex-Panhandle line, Burgettstown PA to Colliers WV Content-Length: 505 In current Railpace (I believe) it's noted that there's a proposal to make this stretch of line into a trail. Was out that way a month ago, wish to get back out there and check things out but I saw nothing exciting. Conrail lifted the tracks west of Burgettstown several years ago. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:43:39 EST Subject: Bowser T-'s1 Content-Length: 1452 Hi, Guys. I've never been a big fan of the T-1, the J-1 being more to my liking but have begun to appreciate the engines more lately...especially after all the recent discussions. I'm glad Bowser is redoing some of the old classic Penn Line steamers. It's a shame they don't rework some of the other problems these engines have like the tendency for the boiler screws to pull out of the T-1 and those huge rivets on the Pennsy tenders. They were great engines for their day and with a lot of detail changes still hold their own. As pointed out they more then hold their own when it comes to pulling which is something we all need and want. It's nice to know that we are still buying these craftsman kits and warrant the time and money Bowser is spending. Thanks, Bowser. I have found over the years that most folks running the great brass engines have pulling problems simply because they only use the little weights supplied by the importer with the engines. For them to pull anything besides themselves it's really necessary for additional weight to be added. It used to be more difficult but with the neat stick-on weights by A-Line and others it's not a problem. You CAN make them pull but more weight is a must. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:28:45 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: N-8 roof Content-Length: 588 Hi you all.... I'm working on a N-8 cabin car and need to find out something... The best i can tell from photos the N-8 cars had a roof walk similar to the raised metal type used on modern boxcars..such as the later x-38 and the x-41 or later classes. anyone know...? Any help would be appreciated... Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: PRR Electrics online? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:03:04 -0500 Content-Length: 391 Hi, Anyone know of any websites that feature photos and/or drawings of PRR electrics? I'm particularly looking for the 2-B-2 (O1?) but am interested in any others as well. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux (fwd) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:33:21 EST Content-Length: 1617 > In summary, we have: > > Pitcairn yard, Pitcairn Borough, Turtle Creek, Turtle Creek Borough, Turtle > Creek Branch, Monroeville, Wall Avenue, Wall Borough, Wall Hotel. Can also > through in Wilmerding Borough. Don't be dismayed at least it is all in > Allegheny County with its 130 municipalities. Of course we can really confuse > things with Trafford. One borough in two counties. The County line runs > through the borough. And remember "There is no Winkies in Wilmerding". > > Rich Orr Whew! Shippensburg, where I grew up, is also in 2 counties. I know of several families whose houses spanned the county line. Surrounding Shippensburg, on the Cumberland County side only I believe, is Shippensburg Township. Then around the Borough and Township is Southampton Township, which itself spans the county line (Cumberland and Franklin counties). To make matters worse, the Pa. tax form, for many years, did not list the Shippensburg school in Franklin county, confusing many a tax preparer. ObPRR: PRR runs thru Shippensburg. Used to run right down the middle of Earl St. Rich, of interest: they call them towns aroun' ya "boroughs". My under- standing is that the original meaning of that term was a thing (town, village, city, etc.) granted a charter by the king. I know this to be true for Shippensburg. Is it for any towns out your way? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR flyovers Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 0:02:11 EST Content-Length: 532 Guys: where's the highest concentration of PRR flyovers/duckunders? North Joizee, of course. Just posted the map of UNION interlocking, which has 2 duckunders in close proximity. Check it out at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/itlk_phl_nyc_main.html Scroll down and click on "UNION"> -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:06:48 EST Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux Content-Length: 801 In a message dated 98-03-13 17:21:29 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: >a former superintendant of the Pittsburgh Division, Robert Pitcairn. We had a Bob Pitcairn working as a trainmaster in Philly after Amtrak took over the NEC. He was from Pittsburgh, quite a colorful guy, well- liked by the crews, and full of GREAT railroad stories, primarily from his days on the Pittsburgh Division. He could not have been the same guy, but I bet he was a son or, more likely, grandson! He retired on disability about 15 years ago, I don't know if he's still living. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:05:35 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux Content-Length: 1503 ---Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > into latrobe, near st. vincents, the line ran a few hundred feet south of its > current location, and you can tell where if you look. > > nothing i know of from there til at least johnstown > > for what its worth At Bradenville, just east of the PA982 underpass, the 4-track main starts a gradual curve to the left (as one goes east). The original main went straight, than made a much sharper curve to the left, rejoining the 4-track main just west of Byrd's crossing, which is just west of West Derry. In the 20's, I'm told, the PRR used the old right-of-way as a coal stockpile area. In the early 50's, it was a parking place for out-of-service passenger equipment. In the late 50's, it became a manganese ore stockpile. Don't know what's there now. That's the last trace of the old main west of Johnstown that I'm sure of, but there is a suspicious thing called the New Florence Branch that looks an awful lot like it might have been an earlier route from New Florence to Bolivar. Can't be sure, though. Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:21:16 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch, Elrico, Pitcairn hump redux Content-Length: 1376 On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, robert netzlof wrote: > At Bradenville, just east of the PA982 underpass, the > 4-track main starts a gradual curve to the left (as > one goes east). The original main went straight, than > made a much sharper curve to the left, rejoining the > 4-track main just west of Byrd's crossing, which is > just west of West Derry. I had forgotten about that. I do recall seeing it on an old map now that you mention it. > That's the last trace of the old main west of > Johnstown that I'm sure of, but there is a suspicious > thing called the New Florence Branch that looks an > awful lot like it might have been an earlier route > from New Florence to Bolivar. Can't be sure, though. Ran along the south bank of the river through New Florence and up to where the main swings across from the north to south bank, apparently. An old Railpace on railfanning Conpit Jct. brought it to my attention. I forgot about it too. Dug out my old Railpaces yesterday, including that, Conemaugh Line, 2 parts of Mike Bezilla's series on the Conrail Pittsburgh line (yes, the main line, and no I can't find the other magazines)-: -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:36:45 EST Subject: Re: T1 - What next? Q-2 or J1 Content-Length: 1809 In a message dated 98-03-13 12:46:58 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: Doug drew wrote: << I know, I know, not a PRR design and therefore to be looked down upon, but far more long-lived than PRR's 'late' steam designs. The J's shared tracks with GP-9's, while the Q's and T's were sitting in dead lines waiting for the torch. When did PRR stop operating the duplexes? -- Doug Drew >> To all; The Pennsy did copy the design for C&O but the fact is it was modified by the Pennsy to achieve a specific purpose on the Pennsy system. It is hands down, IMHO, the best locomotive to ever hit the Pennsy's Rails. It was the basis for the Q-1&2 and out lasted most of Pennsy's locomotives especially on the Lines West. It had a Pennsy signature. It could haul a coal train at speed. It was a brute and my bet it that this boiler configuration would have been carried forward had Pennsy stayed with Steam. Look at what Pennsy leased to suppliment the fleet at the time on the West Side on the Coal and Ore drags off the lakes Santa Fe 2-10-4's. This high stepping locomotive was truely the best we had. My AHM won me the Brass Bell iat the NMRA nationals at Denver in 1991. The Brotherhod of Locomotive Engineers picked it out of all the Locomotives availble to them to review. They said" This Locomotive best represents what Railroading means to the BLE", needless to say I was proud of my "BIRD" Doug most of the Q's were gone by 1954, the J birds stayed until 1957 and were stored just in case. Watching from LINES way out WEST Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:14:29 EST Subject: Re: DGLE? Content-Length: 1011 Joe, I'm not sure why you would do that? Brunswick Green is the PRR color for DGLE, DGLE is just the slang for it. That is like tooting your horn for repalcing X2F coupler with horn hook. I don't get it. Brunswick Green is something we as PENNSY guys could identify ourselves with, now are we to change. Do we change Tuscan to RLE? If Pennsy was to order paint from Glidden in Camden, NJ they certainly did not order DGLE, they bought Brunswick Green, or how do you explain the 4 passenger cars that were painted Brunswick Green (Gliden's locomotive dark green enamel which translates to LDGE). Let's not confuse ourselves thus confuse the hobby, let's call a SPAD a SPAD, Brunswick Green, come on guys let not try to reinvent the wheel. Greg Martin Watching from LINE way out WEST. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:44:33 EST Subject: Re: DGLE? Content-Length: 655 Perhaps the question should be "what did the Pennsy call it," for example the PRR had its own classification system for diesel locomotives, as I understand it they did not use the manufacturer's classification. Should not the same apply to paint and a myriad of other items. If the PRR had a name for it we should use that name. I believe I read somewhere that the Pennsy even had a formula for DGLE. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Searchable Diesel Roster Now Online Date: Sun, 15 Mar 98 14:31:50 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1581 I've just put the searchable diesel locomotive roster online. Though I have yet to work out some interface formatting, the functional coding is pretty much done. You can search on road #, class, or model #. The results table provides links to individual unit records which include those fields as well as year of acquisition, builder (which you should know from the class!), HP, modifications, photo credits, and photos. (Note that no photos are entered, yet!) You can find the link under my Motive Ops page, in the Diesel section. See http://prr.dsop.com/motiveops/ . Let me know what you thinks. Cabin cars are next...as I already have the data. I'd like to continue with Electric and Steam locos...data entry is partially underway by several volunteers. I'll leave Freight cars to Rob Schoenberg since he already has a site online...unless he and others like my interface better and he offers the data. I'm not out to take over the world! BTW: I have successfully split my server load to two servers, so you should see speed improvements. As I upgrade the web code to the new system, it will get even faster! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: DGLE? Date: Sun, 15 Mar 98 14:33:44 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1025 On 3/15/98 2:44 PM, Hal6963 (Hal6963@aol.com) wrote: >Perhaps the question should be "what did the Pennsy call it," for example the >PRR had its own classification system for diesel locomotives, as I understand >it they did not use the manufacturer's classification. Should not the same >apply to paint and a myriad of other items. If the PRR had a name for it we >should use that name. > >I believe I read somewhere that the Pennsy even had a formula for DGLE. On official PRR painting diagrams, Dark Green Locomotive Enamel is specified. It is "Brunswick Green" that is slang!!! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:50:30 -0500 From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 3560 Fellow PRR'ers: Here's something from one of the lurkers on this forum. The below notes and the mogul story (sent separately) were written after some excellent research was provided by the readers of this PRR electronic forum. You guys were great in helping me with the details. So....in a way, you all helped write the fictional story, "Mogul Washed Away by Floods". It has been sent to 3 local garden railway clubs to be included in their newsletters. If any of you would like a clean copy for your local club newsletter (in MS Word 6.0), I can attach the 2 articles, or send floppies and hard copies. And by the way, Jerry, that new software/hardware must of worked.....your postings are hitting faster than ever!! EDITOR’S NOTES: MOGUL WASHED AWAY! The author, Carl K. Vogel, actually visited Atlanta, GA during their worst floods in years! CNN, during the weekend of March 7th & 8th, graphically displayed the horrible results of dams that had burst; the houses that had washed away, the roads erased, and even rescue efforts to find an infant that was swept away in the flood of red water. The preceding fictional story was, in no way, meant to minimize the loss felt by the victims of the floods in Georgia and Alabama. Rather, the author was visibly moved at what he had seen while circling overhead, and before he knew it, this story had been written. Carl has had an interest in the LGB 2219S Pennsylvania sound mogul since he bought it for his son in 1992. The engine was not a big seller for LGB, possibly because it was perceived that a narrow gauge mogul was inappropriate for a standard gauge line like the PRR, and because it was painted red, instead of the black or extreme dark green colors PRR engines were usually painted. Research by several people in the internet have revealed that the PRR did own narrow gauge moguls, and that LGB had dispatched someone to take pictures of the remaining one. That engine still resides today in southwestern Pennsylvania. Also, the PRR did paint three, standard gauge locomotives in tuscan red during the 1930’s. However, all their narrow gauge steamers apparently remained painted black. The red 2219S has been a perennial winner in garden railway photography contests (possibly because red photographs well) and today, it is becoming hard to find a pristine example of one of these engines for sale. Although this early 1990’s production item is not a "collectible", who knows what the future holds for this red herring of moguls. Carl has been a member of the LGB Club of America since 1993, and maintains memberships in garden railway clubs in both the Philadelphia, PA and Southern New Jersey areas. He owns all, except one, of the PRR rolling stock LGB has produced, and is actively lobbying them to produce a version of their new F7 diesel in tuscan red. Carl suggests that others also wishing for a PRR F7 should send their own letters to LGB of America. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Financially Depleted Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:52:00 -0500 From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 4634 MOGUL WASHED AWAY BY GEORGIA FLOODS! Georgia and Alabama were rocked, this weekend, by the worst floods in years! Dams burst, roads washed away, tragic drownings occurred, and entire lakes and lowlands were turned into a burnt Campbell's Tomato Soup bowl of floating logs, plywood and tops of cars. As I circled (and over....repeatedly) the lakes and countryside of Atlanta and neighboring counties, I was stunned at the sights. There wasn't a blue river, stream or lake left. Someone must have gone and poured food coloring in all of them...a dye reddish brown with clumps of black pepper. We were one of the last planes to land before the Atlanta, Georgia runway was shut down. After checking in, I got in the car and went out to see if there was anything I could do to help the victims. In one low-lying area, I saw a sullen man gingerly picking at a reddish brown washout with a shovel. I approached him cautiously. There was a repeated mumbling of, "Should’a gotten the black one", drifting across the road where I was parked. Then, gentle sounds again, of sharpened metal being sucked into the settling ooze. When asked what he's looking for, he mumbled, "no need to tell you, you'll never find it anyway, Should’a gotten the black one". I had no idea until, out of the muck, he rescued 3 sections of LGB track....still attached together. "My goodness!!" I shouted, and then cringed while asking, "There's a train lost?". "Yes....several", he paused, and then continued, "...should’a gotten the black one". I eagerly joined the rescue mission, risking life and limb to bring our little scale friends back to life. Within minutes, Eli, the black Shay was found! His fire was out, and was lying on his side, wedged between snapped branches of a pecan tree. Another volunteer joined the cause, and began the careful wipedown of the Eli's externals and innards. Some LGB 1500 track and boxcars, and some USA stuff soon surfaced, along with the POLA houses. But still, the man looked forlorn. As darkness approached, his spirits sagged even as I spoke, "what are we looking for?" He replied with the same cryptic response that he's been uttering all day. So again I asked, "what are we looking for?". "The mogul...that doggone mogul in tuscan red....the exact color of the state's total supply of clay that's in my yard! I knew it. I should’a gotten the black one!". I said no more, but I knew what he meant. It was a beauty...it won picture contests...it ran like a wonder on the tracks...but it was the tuscan red Pennsy mogul and not, the Colorado & Southern black one. That extra $200 for the black paint probably would of saved its life. That engine would of been better spotted against the reddish brown clay. Even as his pace slowed, mine quickened. I had to...I had a brethren lost, out there, mired in muck. I dug, using slow, 2" jabbing motion as I probed my way along the newly-born stream bank. But today, there was no Pennsy. More track, some switches...other G-scale baubles and boilers. No mogul, though, to rejoice about. I left, attended my conference, and returned 2 days later. He was still there in the yard, hosing off track that had been placed almost into a funeral pyre. Slowly, the brass was reappearing. That's it, the end of the story. I left that night, with the mogul still missing. Who knows....someday.....some young boy may be digging around the edge of that stream outside Atlanta, and see a familiar shape outlined in the clay. There will be rejoicing, a rebel yell! In the boy's soul as he realizes the treasure he just found! And that mogul will be found. By whom...we don't know. And that mogul will run again. But when? Where? Well....that switch hasn't been thrown yet to know where the story is going. But if, and only if you're interested in joining the search, email me. I'll send you the directions how to get to that clay-covered county's biggest treasure site yet. But look hard, tuscan red is a common sight in Georgia! Carl K. Vogel Still Dirty Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: DGLE? Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:56:03 -0500 Content-Length: 2531 Greg, I'm affraid I have to disagree with you on this one. Just because a great many books are written using the ref. 'Brunswick Green' doesn't make it so. I mean, if you uncover the truth about something in world history, that up to this point was unknown, are you going to turn away from the facts just because all the books thus far written say something else ? For example, Remeber when the planet Pluto was discovered ? Should we not have revised the books or star charts to reflect this new discovery ? I do think that since the PRR records indicate Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, then that's what it should be called. I will say, that if absolutely no one changes a thing, it won't get me bent out of shape over it. Name or not, color is merely a perception. FACT. As modelers, we can use any color we 'perceive' as DGLE, no matter what it is called. Perhaps more research is in order to find out the precise ref. to Pennsy colors should be. Did they have 'number' codes ? I also don't believe that any of the colors stayed all that consistant through the years or even from different manufacturers in the same time frame. Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions P.S. Sorry, but you won't find any ref. in our kits to Brunswick Green. :) !! ---------- > From: TGREGMRTN > To: liberty@infonline.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; drm6@psu.edu > Cc: mxb13@psu.edu > Subject: Re: DGLE? > Date: Sunday, March 15, 1998 1:14 PM > > Joe, > I'm not sure why you would do that? Brunswick Green is the PRR color for > DGLE, DGLE is just the slang for it. That is like tooting your horn for > repalcing X2F coupler with horn hook. I don't get it. Brunswick Green is > something we as PENNSY guys could identify ourselves with, now are we to > change. Do we change Tuscan to RLE? If Pennsy was to order paint from Glidden > in Camden, NJ they certainly did not order DGLE, they bought Brunswick Green, > or how do you explain the 4 passenger cars that were painted Brunswick Green > (Gliden's locomotive dark green enamel which translates to LDGE). Let's not > confuse ourselves thus confuse the hobby, let's call a SPAD a SPAD, Brunswick > Green, come on guys let not try to reinvent the wheel. > Greg Martin > Watching from LINE way out WEST. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: DGLE? Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:07:50 -0500 Content-Length: 1328 BTW Greg..........I'm a 'KADEE' guy myself. No horn hooks, no X2F's !! :) Joe ---------- > From: TGREGMRTN > To: liberty@infonline.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; drm6@psu.edu > Cc: mxb13@psu.edu > Subject: Re: DGLE? > Date: Sunday, March 15, 1998 1:14 PM > > Joe, > I'm not sure why you would do that? Brunswick Green is the PRR color for > DGLE, DGLE is just the slang for it. That is like tooting your horn for > repalcing X2F coupler with horn hook. I don't get it. Brunswick Green is > something we as PENNSY guys could identify ourselves with, now are we to > change. Do we change Tuscan to RLE? If Pennsy was to order paint from Glidden > in Camden, NJ they certainly did not order DGLE, they bought Brunswick Green, > or how do you explain the 4 passenger cars that were painted Brunswick Green > (Gliden's locomotive dark green enamel which translates to LDGE). Let's not > confuse ourselves thus confuse the hobby, let's call a SPAD a SPAD, Brunswick > Green, come on guys let not try to reinvent the wheel. > Greg Martin > Watching from LINE way out WEST. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:03:44 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: ex-Panhandle line, Burgettstown PA to Colliers WV Content-Length: 892 In message Derrick J Brashear writes: > In current Railpace (I believe) it's noted that there's a proposal to make > this stretch of line into a trail. Was out that way a month ago, wish to > get back out there and check things out but I saw nothing exciting. > Conrail lifted the tracks west of Burgettstown several years ago. They are lifted east of Burgettstown too. I followed the old line from out near the WV border. I think they are gone from Carnegie west. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:44:12 -0500 Subject: Lack of Subject Headers From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 810 I sent 2 postings to PRR about the lost mogul; one was the article and the other was the Editor's notes and background info. I didn't realize that the subject headers were missing on both articles. Sorry for the confusion, they are separate postings. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Financially Depleted Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:34:21 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: DGLE? Content-Length: 1275 Liberty wrote: > > Name or not, color is merely a perception. FACT. > As modelers, we can use any color we 'perceive' as DGLE, no matter what it > is called. > > Perhaps more research is in order to find out the precise ref. to Pennsy > colors should be. Did they have 'number' codes ? Joe and all, `FWIW, there is a cataloguing system used to define colors, at least in industrial schemes, known as the Munsell (system). If you want to get a specific specification for DGLE, or any other color, it might be possible to use one of the computer color matching systems, interfaced with the Munsell system. Perhaps computer color-matching softwares use this system? (I am guessing - have never looked into it). If you have any contacts in the industrial paint industry they might be able to help. I first heard of the Munsell color numbers referring to a shade of blue-gray applied to power distribution transformers in the 1960's. I don't know if it existed back when the PRR was being particular with colors. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: DGLE? Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:32:21 -0500 Content-Length: 3128 Steve, Thanks for the info. Yes, I know folks in the ink industry, I even used to use such equipment (like spectrophotometer, densiometer and the like) we used to check chroma and hue and other specs on color. But I will share this with you. No matter what the instruments say, it still has to look good to the eye ! Also, I still believe that if you checked factory fresh paint samples from any era against the same of another era, you'd wind up with as many 'formulas' of paint as you have samples. When veiwing color, the human eye can detect a shift in most colors at a total Delta E value of 1.0 Changes in tan or grey can be detected as low as .5, these are very low numerical differences in the amount of pigment or fillers that can affect the way we see color. I am certain they weren't specing paint that 'tight' on any railroad items ! This, of course, is good news for modelers, because just about any reasonably good looking shade of very dark green will be justifiable on a model of a locomotive. ( And that is for 'Factory Fresh' appearance). Throw in the factors of oxidation and fade due to the elements, not to mention road dirt, soot, fuel and grease, etc., and I dare anyone to tell me that the color is wrong on my models !! Color is one area that should be left alone ! Now, as for the name....... DGLE by any other name, is still DGLE ! :) :) Joe Z. ---------- > From: Stephen Bartlett > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: DGLE? > Date: Sunday, March 15, 1998 8:34 PM > > Liberty wrote: > > > > Name or not, color is merely a perception. FACT. > > As modelers, we can use any color we 'perceive' as DGLE, no matter what it > > is called. > > > > Perhaps more research is in order to find out the precise ref. to Pennsy > > colors should be. Did they have 'number' codes ? > > Joe and all, > `FWIW, there is a cataloguing system used to define colors, at least in > industrial schemes, known as the Munsell (system). If you want to get a > specific specification for DGLE, or any other color, it might be > possible to use one of the computer color matching systems, interfaced > with the Munsell system. Perhaps computer color-matching softwares use > this system? (I am guessing - have never looked into it). If you have > any contacts in the industrial paint industry they might be able to > help. > > I first heard of the Munsell color numbers referring to a shade of > blue-gray applied to power distribution transformers in the 1960's. I > don't know if it existed back when the PRR was being particular with > colors. > > Steve Bartlett > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:43:34 EST Subject: DGLE Content-Length: 1282 I have several copies of official PRR diesel painting guides for PA, BP-20 and E-units. They all reference DGLE and mention it being eventually replaced by Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel. There is no official reference anywhere to Brunswick Green. As far as I know it was a name given to that particular shade of green by 410M paints (no longer in business) made for modelers back in the 1950's or possibly by Floquil. Also painting guides all refer to Dupont's Dulux Gold as Synthetic Buff Enamel. So, I feel the "proper: name is DGLE, but who really cares. You can call it Vivid Purple for that matter but it still makes a striking paint job. Floquil and Scalecoat seem to sell a lot of that color so the name of the color really must not be a valid problem, at least not to them! Sure would be nice if the railroads would go back to colors and lettering styles like that rather than some of the gaudy, circus colors and lettering around now. Sorry BNSF but you look more like NASCAR than a professional railroad. Long live the P Company!!!!!! Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:27:46 EST Subject: DGLE Content-Length: 572 Hi, Guys! All this talk about DGLE made me wonder if the Pennsy ever painted anything DGLE with 5 stripes in Dulux Gold? I've seen a few photos where the lettering and stripes seemed awfully bright like dulux. Usually the bronze gold almost disapeared into the paint when even slightly weathered. Now that would really be a striking paint scheme! Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: DGLE Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 06:38:51 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1166 On 3/16/98 1:27 AM, Huber25 (Huber25@aol.com) wrote: >All this talk about DGLE made me wonder if the Pennsy ever painted anything >DGLE with 5 stripes in Dulux Gold? I've seen a few photos where the lettering >and stripes seemed awfully bright like dulux. Usually the bronze gold almost >disapeared into the paint when even slightly weathered. Now that would >really >be a striking paint scheme! Passenger power was colored as follows: Pre-1952: DGLE with five stripes 1952 to 1953-56: Tuscan Red with five stripes Post 1953-56: Tuscan Red with broad single stripe. Freight power was DGLE straight through. There may have been some five-stripers in freight service, but the single stripe units were a narrow stripe. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:07:28 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: BP20 question Content-Length: 541 Greetings, Were the two small view windows, on nose, either side of the Keystone, installed by the railroad or the builder? I don't see these same windows on either the BF15 or RF16. Did the freight engines not need these windows or is there a difference in the noses? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:20:40 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Classification lights Content-Length: 1037 Greetings, What is the scheme for the classification lights? In some pictures of engines with trains along main lines, the lights are red, in others the lights are apparently off. Didn't see any with green or white lights. My understanding was and unlighted engine was a single section train operating per the schedule. A green lighted engine indicated a scheduled train followed by another section. If there were three sections the second engine would also be green lighted. The third or last section would be unlighted to indicate no more sections were following. A red lighted engine indicated an engine without train was being operated on the main line. This is how many lines in the southeast were class lighted. Was this the same for the PRR? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: DGLE Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:20:44 -0500 Content-Length: 540 > All this talk about DGLE made me wonder if the Pennsy ever painted > anything DGLE with 5 stripes in Dulux Gold? _____________________ Yes. Most of the GG-1's ran out their PRR lives in DGLE and five-stripe Dulux. The gold leaf striping and lettering was pretty much gone by the early 1950's. Andrew Harmantas, SPF ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 06:36:40 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: Classification lights Content-Length: 2013 ---"s.a. mccall" wrote: > > > Greetings, > > What is the scheme for the classification lights? > My understanding was and unlighted engine was a single section train > operating per the schedule. Yes > A green lighted engine indicated a scheduled > train followed by another section. If there were three sections the second > engine would also be green lighted. The third or last section would be > unlighted to indicate no more sections were following. Yes > A red lighted > engine indicated an engine without train was being operated on the main > line. This is how many lines in the southeast were class lighted. Was > this the same for the PRR? No. The PRR rule books I've seen show red lights ON THE PILOT BEAM for "engine travelling in reverse at night" but only the "green for following section, white for extra train" in the classification lights. There was for some time a set of rules regarding trains turned out against the current of traffic, train on siding clear of the main track, freight train running on passenger track with current of traffic (four track lines) and such things. These involved showing a red and a yellow, or two yellow lamps; and also governed what was shown on the pilot beam of locomotives running in reverse. I'm not sure when that elaboration was dropped. The idea was that an enginemen, suddenly seeing marker lamps ahead of him could see that "Oh, that's a train turned out against traffic on the westward main. I'm running with traffic on the eastward main, so I'm OK" Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:34:05 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Bowser Q-2 or J1 - It ain't happening! Content-Length: 2663 Hi all, Greg Martin said: > Add to that list a Q-2 and a long promised ex-Arbor Models J-1. I heard >sometime back that Bowser got those Dies too. Sigh...Although we've been over this a few times in the last year, for the benefit of those who've joined the list since the last time... 1) The Arbor Models dies are JUNK. This is direct from Mr. English. Dies only have a specific number of castings in them, and these were way over that. They will NEVER produce another model...so kiss any hope of those models re-appearing (J-1, C&O 2-6-6-6, etc.) goodbye - it ain't going to happen! 2) Bowser is NOT contemplating any NEW locomotives (again direct from Mr. English, as of last summer in Madison). So forget about new dies for a Q or J or any other loco not already on the Bowser list. As it is, producing replacements for the dies already in use is, in their minds, a huge hassle. Bowser has, quite correctly, been the subject of much modeler wrath for not producing models which are protoypically correct. Thus, they have tried to correct errors when redoing molds - for example, the old I-1 dies were cut from the L-1 boiler resulting in the wrong boiler for that model! I understand that the new T-1 is also more prototypically correct than the old casting, and required over one year of effort to produce! 3) Bowser is more interested in producing modern equipment (post PRR, post PC) than in producing any new PRR models. They are trying to compete in the Athern market, not the LL P2K, Intermountain, Red Caboose, Tichy, or Gloor Craft marketplace. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:44:49 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Classification lights Content-Length: 1050 s.a. mccall wrote: > > >...My understanding was and unlighted engine was a single section train > operating per the schedule. A green lighted engine indicated a > scheduled train followed by another section. Hosam, This follows Robert Netzlof's excellent answer, so I won't repeat what he said, except to add that where diesel locos are equipped with multi-color class lights, the red aspect is usually available as part of the white/green lens assembly; that replaces the steam loco pilot beam location. In general, a "first" section is only considered to exist when there are one or more following sections. A single train, no sections, is not referred to as a section. It is a matter of semantics, but the intent of railroad rules was to be very precise in wording, to avoid ambiguities. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:06:01 +0000 From: J Bruce Andrews Subject: Re: BP20 question Content-Length: 1051 s.a. mccall wrote: > > > Greetings, > > Were the two small view windows, on nose, either side of the Keystone, I have seen photos which clearly show wire mesh over these openings, sugesting that the where for ventilation rather than viewing > installed by the railroad or the builder? I don't see these same windows I have also seen photos of BP20's without these openings (one was still in DGLE) so I would guess they where added by the railroad. > on either the BF15 or RF16. Did the freight engines not need these windows > or is there a difference in the noses? > Sincerely, > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > Franklin, Va. > Congratulations on a good bit of detail spoting there. Does anyone know more these openings? Similar openings seem to have been added to some AP20's. Bruce Andrews ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: BP20 question Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:22:35 -0500 Content-Length: 1861 Hi guys, Sorry I don't have any answer on this, but I truely love the topic. Discussing these details will aid in the detailing of the Shark models !! How should we represent these screened openings ? P-etch ? or just a 'fine screen' look on the tooling ? Thanks in advance, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ---------- > From: J Bruce Andrews > To: s.a. mccall > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: BP20 question > Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 9:06 AM > > s.a. mccall wrote: > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > Were the two small view windows, on nose, either side of the Keystone, > > I have seen photos which clearly show wire mesh over these openings, > sugesting > that the where for ventilation rather than viewing > > > installed by the railroad or the builder? I don't see these same windows > > I have also seen photos of BP20's without these openings (one was > still in > DGLE) so I would guess they where added by the railroad. > > > on either the BF15 or RF16. Did the freight engines not need these windows > > or is there a difference in the noses? > > Sincerely, > > > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > > Franklin, Va. > > > > Congratulations on a good bit of detail spoting there. Does anyone know > more > these openings? Similar openings seem to have been added to some > AP20's. > > Bruce Andrews > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:24:53 EST Subject: Re: Bowser T-'s1 Content-Length: 737 In a message dated 98-03-14 19:48:43 EST, Ro9ger writes << It's a shame they don't rework some of the other problems these engines have like the tendency for the boiler screws to pull out of the T-1 and those huge rivets on the Pennsy tenders. >> I believe they have retooled either the H9 or L1 tender with scale size rivets. I talked with the owner's wife at Madison and she commented that they were difficult to see, but they were having their toolmaker do it anyway when retooling came up. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:58:00 EST Subject: Re: DGLE Content-Length: 859 In a message dated 98-03-16 06:40:20 EST, Jerry writes : << There may have been some five-stripers in freight service, but the single stripe units were a narrow stripe. >> There are photos of Alco PA's, Baldwin BP20's, and Baldwin Centipedes in DLGE with 5-stripes in freight service right after they wre regeared for freight. Don Ball's color book has a photo of a BP20A with two BF16 B''s hauling a freight. In the DGLE scheme with 5 stripe catwhiskers to the nose, my favorite of the paint schemes on the passenger sharks. Now I really can't wait for the Liberty models after seeing that photo last night. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: BP20 question From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 15:05:56 -0500 Content-Length: 2487 One of the Pennsy Diesel Years books make reference to the fact that the cab of BP20s was not air conditioned and that the crews were were prone to recify this on hot days by traveling with the nose door open. There are even some fotos of BP20's in Exchange Place with these doors open. Perhaps the screened openings were a response to this problem? regards Andy Miller =========================== Hi guys, Sorry I don't have any answer on this, but I truly love the topic. Discussing these details will aid in the detailing of the Shark models !! How should we represent these screened openings ? P-etch ? or just a 'fine screen' look on the tooling ? Thanks in advance, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions - ---------- > From: J Bruce Andrews > To: s.a. mccall > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: BP20 question > Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 9:06 AM > > s.a. mccall wrote: > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > Were the two small view windows, on nose, either side of the Keystone, > > I have seen photos which clearly show wire mesh over these openings, > sugesting > that the where for ventilation rather than viewing > > > installed by the railroad or the builder? I don't see these same windows > > I have also seen photos of BP20's without these openings (one was > still in > DGLE) so I would guess they where added by the railroad. > > > on either the BF15 or RF16. Did the freight engines not need these windows > > or is there a difference in the noses? > > Sincerely, > > > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > > Franklin, Va. > > > > Congratulations on a good bit of detail spoting there. Does anyone know > more > these openings? Similar openings seem to have been added to some > AP20's. > > Bruce Andrews > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". - ------------------------------------------------------------ For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:14:41 -0600 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: New PRR Products (HO) Content-Length: 1132 Date: 03/16/1998 08:12 pm (Monday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL:"prr-talk@dsop.com" Subject: New PRR Products (HO) Page 8 of the April MR issue product news announced the availability of a plastic and photoetched brass PRR K11 stockcar kit from Sparrows Point Division, P.O. Box 325, Telford, PA 18969. The photo of the completed kit looks great. Price is $24.95 plus $4.50 shipping, each kit! How about Jerry or Joe Zappa contacting Sparrows Point Div and see if they could get dealer terms on a large order and pass some savings along to the group. This is a really PRR unique car and several in a consist would look great. I also stumbled accross the just released Athearn Auto Loaders. The local shop had them in PRR, UP, B&O, and NYC. These are neat looking and a string of them would certainly add a different mix to the normal freight car consists. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: BP20 question Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:32:44 -0500 Content-Length: 442 Perhaps I am too much a literalist, but were ANY Pennsy cabs air conditioned? > cab of > BP20s was not air conditioned and that the crews were were prone to recify > this > on hot days by traveling with the nose door open. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:29:13 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: Classification lights Content-Length: 1657 ---"s.a. mccall" wrote: > >The idea was that an enginemen, suddenly seeing > >marker lamps ahead of him could see that "Oh, that's > >a train turned out against traffic on the westward > >main. I'm running with traffic on the eastward main, > >so I'm OK" > > > > That sounds like a good set of rules. I wasn't aware that class lights > had yellow lenses. From the above reference to pilot beams this must have > applied to steam engines?? Thanks for the reply and information..... > Oh golly yes. I tend to forget that all the PRR rule books I own/have read are pre-diesel. On steam locomotives, the classification lights (green/white) were on the smokebox, at or above the middle. Marker lights (red/yellow) were on the pilot beam. Given that those new-fangled diesels don't have pilot beams, I suppose the red lamps had to go someplace in case the locomotive should be found "at the rear of a train, pushing cars, by night". (By the time diesels came along, the red/yellow combinations had vanished.) These days, of course, Conrail has taken to running red lamps front and rear, headlamp front and rear, it's getting so you can't tell which way the thing's going without a scorecard. Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:36:11 +0000 From: J Bruce Andrews Subject: Re: BP20 question Content-Length: 960 Liberty wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Sorry I don't have any answer on this, but I truely love the topic. > Discussing these details will aid in the detailing of the Shark models !! > How should we represent these screened openings ? P-etch ? or just a 'fine > screen' look on the tooling ? > > Thanks in advance, > > Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions > > ---------- Joe, They are small enough that a 'fine screen' look would probably be OK. The more important question is do you put them on as part of the casting or as an add on detail. I don't think they where on all BP20's , at least not from the factory. This is like the problem of original small number boards versus the large number boards added later. Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:57:37 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Bowser Q-2 or J1 - It ain't happening! Content-Length: 2429 Bruce Smith states: >2) Bowser is NOT contemplating any NEW locomotives (again direct from Mr. >English, as of last summer in Madison). So forget about new dies for a Q >or J or any other loco not already on the Bowser list. > >3) Bowser is more interested in producing modern equipment (post PRR, post >PC) than in producing any new PRR models. They are trying to compete in >the Athern market, not the LL P2K, Intermountain, Red Caboose, Tichy, or >Gloor Craft marketplace. ===== This is a comprehensively stupid move! Everybody and their dog is producing modern equipment, and Bowser will be doubly in a johnny-come-lately position because their reputation is primarily in steam. Right now, what is desperately needed is more steam. Something like 85% of the market follows some historical period which would use at least a few steamers, yet the only available products are toy junk from Taiwan, whatever oddments of Rivarossi may still be around - and Bowser. I can understand Bowsers desire to finish up the existing retooling effort and to get some sales under their belt to recover some of that tremendous capital outlay. So, realisticly, don't hope for anything for several years yet. However, the smart move for Bowser after that would be to diversify out of the PRR market into some of the major steam roads such as ATSF, UP, SP, etc. (Sorry guys, but that's where the smart money is - Pennsy already has a nice selection of steam.) Remember, they have several sizes of drivers, tender trucks, side rods, etc., plus their production is oriented to steam: production of a UP 4-10-2 would be the same as a PRR J1, as far as component processing, packing, etc. I admit, I would like to see a Q2; it makes sense for a PRR market- particularly Lines West (what do you think about a Q2, Tom V?). But Bowser needs to remain true to their strength - steam - and diversify. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:51:22 +0000 From: J Bruce Andrews Subject: Re: New PRR Products (HO) Content-Length: 1517 Laird, Bill (GWise) wrote: > > Date: 03/16/1998 08:12 pm (Monday) > From: Bill Laird > To: INET.MAIL:"prr-talk@dsop.com" > Subject: New PRR Products (HO) > > Page 8 of the April MR issue product news announced the availability of > a plastic and photoetched brass PRR K11 stockcar kit from Sparrows > Point Division, P.O. Box 325, Telford, PA 18969. The photo of the > completed kit looks great. Price is $24.95 plus $4.50 shipping, each kit! > How about Jerry or Joe Zappa contacting Sparrows Point Div and see if > they could get dealer terms on a large order and pass some savings > along to the group. This is a really PRR unique car and several in a > consist would look great. I picked up two of these kits at the Springfield train show a few weeks back. I have not built them yet, but they look very interesting. You start with a Bowser X31 with the sides removed, then add back new sides , etc. from parts suplied. This is real close to how the prototypes were built I think. My question is how common were these 40 ' long K11's. All the photos that I have seen of this type of car were the 50' long K9's built from X32's. I wonder if Sparrows Point will be doing a K9 kit as well. (I even have an undecorated X32 that I planed to kit-bash.) Bruce Andrews ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:51:39 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 2082 Greetings, On pg 63 of Dozall's book "Baldwin Diesel Locomotives" pic at top shows the premier set of Sharknose DR-6-4-2000 # 5770a-5770b-5771a on display at Eddystone. # 5770a has no nose windows but does have dual headlights, no grabs on nose, Keystone below lower headlight, trainphone antennas and no horn. Paint is Tuscan red, 5 stripe with circular hearld, without nose stripes. In W.A. Feibelman's book "Rails to Pittsburgh" pg is a pic of #5771a. Caption says "two large headlights seem to be unique to 5771 Sharknose,..." Also on same page #5780a and preceeding page #5772a have single headlights and no horns! Question were dual headlights used only on #5770a & 5771a? Why no horns? In Kalmbach's book "Diesel Locomotives cyclopedia Vol 2", pg 86 there are 3 photos. The upper left photo #5777a is shown at Harrisburg a year or so after delivery per the caption. Has small horizontal grab, single headlight, keystone toward bottom of nose and single horn above engineers side. Still has 5 stripe paint with circular Keystone and no nose stripes. The lower photo #5775a has the same configuration as #5777a except now has nose stripes. Caption says "....1952....". The upper left photo #5773a now has a single stripe, large numberboards, no horizontal grab, keystone is just below the single headlight, ladder just behind the numberboards and a 3 chime horn. The caption says "... a few months before retirement...". Question when were the nose ladders added and was keystone moved up when repainted with single stripe?? Just as a matter of interest only the #5773 has the windows on nose. These are definitely windows and not vents. I was unable to find a pic which shows vents. But then, I don't have all the pics which were printed over the years. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: BP20 question Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:05:46 -0500 Content-Length: 1926 Bruce, Thanks for your input on the subject. After thinking about this a bit, I am inclined to think that putting them right on the shell, raised ever so slightly, they would look very nice, and if not desired for a particular model, they would be gone with a swipe or two of fine sand paper. As for the number boards, the kit will include both styles, cast in pewter, with a hole in them, and dished out for lighting. The outer edge of these will have a slight recess to allow for the clear acetate / number decal to be glued into them ! For those who order factory builts, this will either need to be specified, or be in accordance with whatever was appropriate for a given road number. ---------- > From: J Bruce Andrews > To: Liberty > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: BP20 question > Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 11:36 AM > > Liberty wrote: > > > > Hi guys, > > > > Sorry I don't have any answer on this, but I truely love the topic. > > Discussing these details will aid in the detailing of the Shark models !! > > How should we represent these screened openings ? P-etch ? or just a 'fine > > screen' look on the tooling ? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions > > > > ---------- > > Joe, > > They are small enough that a 'fine screen' look would probably be OK. > The more important question is do you put them on as part of the casting > or as an add on detail. I don't think they where on all BP20's , at > least not from the factory. This is like the problem of original small > number boards versus the large number boards added later. > > Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:19:15 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: BP20 question Content-Length: 1074 Greetings, I wonder if the wire mesh might be to protect the glass from debris. In Yanosey's book Pennsy Diesel Years 2 pg 10 shows a BP20 #5775a with the nose door open. This unit has the 2 glasses windows adjacent. In the text it is said "One of the banes of photographing sharks in the summer was the air conditioning efforts of the crews who often left the nose door ajar to scoop up a breeze" Can you give me a reference as to where I could find the pics of wire mesh over these openings. Thanks for your reply, I'm just trying to run down some details on these unique engines. After all there were 23 total and only PRR had them... > I have seen photos which clearly show wire mesh over these openings, >sugesting > that the where for ventilation rather than viewing > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:26:49 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: DGLE Content-Length: 1491 Greetings, Look at Yanosey's book Pennsy Diesel Years 2 pg 79 there is a BP20 #5779a pulling a passenger train. What's unusual about this, the BP20 is Brunswick Green with 5 stripes, circle keystone and stripes on nose, small numberboards no ladders. Text says Altoona station in july 1951...... At 02:58 PM 3/16/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-16 06:40:20 EST, Jerry writes : > ><< There may have been some > five-stripers in freight service, but the single stripe units were a > narrow stripe. >> > >There are photos of Alco PA's, Baldwin BP20's, and Baldwin Centipedes in DLGE >with 5-stripes in freight service right after they wre regeared for freight. >Don Ball's color book has a photo of a BP20A with two BF16 B''s hauling a >freight. >In the DGLE scheme with 5 stripe catwhiskers to the nose, my favorite of the >paint schemes on the passenger sharks. >Now I really can't wait for the Liberty models after seeing that photo last >night. > >Bob Zoeller > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:35:44 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: BP20 question Content-Length: 1147 Greetings, So far I haven't been able to find any pics which are not clearly windows. If these are vents there would have been a way to close them up to prevent rain/snow etc from entering the front. I suspect these are just windows, but why????? The same things do not show up on the freight versions, the BF15 & BF16's. If you could provide some photo reference which shows these windows? on the freight versions, I would appreciate it.....Thanks for your reply.... At 03:17 PM 3/16/98 EST, you wrote: >Hi Hosam, > >My guess is that all of the Shark's >had inadequate ventilation for the >cab, as many photos are shown >with the nose access door open >while running. I can't answer the >question as to whether or not those >units shown with with the small vents >added were as delivered or a modification >by the Pennsy. > >Regards, > >George > > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gest, Al" Subject: P2k Pennsy DGLE E7 B units Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:49:02 -0600 Content-Length: 761 Help! My local hobby shop told me 3 days ago I was not going to get the DGLE E7 B units I had reserved (I had already purchased the A units from them, the B units were supposedly arriving later). I haven't found any at the shops here in Houston. I've also tried a lot of the mail order places listed in the mags. I've read here they are in very short supply. Anyone know of a source? " A frustrated Pennsy modeler in Texas. " ************** Al Gest, MD agest@neomailbcm.pedi.bcm.tmc.edu Baylor College of Medicine *************** ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Shark ref. Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:33:49 -0500 Content-Length: 650 Hi All, In response to the many questions about the Sharks, being posted, I might suggest taking a look also at our website ( http://liberty.dsop.com ). Jerry Britton has provided this information (linked in through our site). Good diagrams on paint schemes and configurations etc. Go to HO scale products, click on the BP-20 link, then on the 'more on BP-20,' etc. link. -You'll find it. Some really good info ! Joe Zappa ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: BP20 question Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:07:05 -0500 Content-Length: 2080 Sam I have been studying the photo's in Pennsy Diesel Years (several diff. vol. have Shark photo's) and I think that these are indeed screened vents of some sort. When you look at the photo's, you don't see the same reflective gloss or shine as with glass, but more of a sheen that would suggest a very fine wire mesh screen. I'm not saying you're wrong, as I don't know for sure either. Hopefully someone 'in the know' will clear this up. Also, I thought there were 18 'A' units and 9 'B' units total of the BP-20. Joe Zappa ---------- > From: s.a. mccall > To: J Bruce Andrews ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: BP20 question > Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 5:19 PM > > > Greetings, > > I wonder if the wire mesh might be to protect the glass from debris. > > In Yanosey's book Pennsy Diesel Years 2 pg 10 shows a BP20 #5775a with the > nose door open. This unit has the 2 glasses windows adjacent. In the text > it is said "One of the banes of photographing sharks in the summer was the > air conditioning efforts of the crews who often left the nose door ajar to > scoop up a breeze" > Can you give me a reference as to where I could find the pics of wire > mesh over these openings. > Thanks for your reply, I'm just trying to run down some details on these > unique engines. After all there were 23 total and only PRR had them... > > > > I have seen photos which clearly show wire mesh over these openings, > >sugesting > > that the where for ventilation rather than viewing > > > > Sincerely, > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > Franklin, Va. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:21:07 EST Subject: Re: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 1099 In a message dated 98-03-16 18:08:18 EST, S. A. McCall writes: << Question were dual headlights used only on #5770a & 5771a? Why no horns? >> Everything I have seen verifies this. Pennsy Diesel Years Vol. 5 for one. I was stunned in that book to find that E8s 5700-5701 had Mars lights --been an SPF since E8s were manufactured and never knew they had any. I was under impression second headlight on 5770-5771 as a fog light, not oscillating. Anyone know? <> See my previous post on this subject giving drawing date changes for adding stripes to nose. There were time lags while drawing changes were implemented. Hence reason for BF16z (BP20 convert to freight) being seen with DGLE and five stripes to nose in freight service. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: more BP20 questions Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 19:54:33 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1701 On 3/16/98 5:51 PM, s.a. mccall (hosam@gc.net) wrote: > On pg 63 of Dozall's book "Baldwin Diesel Locomotives" pic at top shows >the premier set of Sharknose DR-6-4-2000 # 5770a-5770b-5771a on display at >Eddystone. ># 5770a has no nose windows but does have dual headlights, no grabs on >nose, Keystone below lower headlight, trainphone antennas and no horn. >Paint is Tuscan red, 5 stripe with circular hearld, without nose stripes. > In W.A. Feibelman's book "Rails to Pittsburgh" pg is a pic of #5771a. >Caption says "two large headlights seem to be unique to 5771 Sharknose,..." >Also on same page #5780a and preceeding page #5772a have single headlights >and no horns! > >Question were dual headlights used only on #5770a & 5771a? Why no horns? Somewhere, while doing research for Liberty, I read that the first two units had horns in one location and all others had them elsewhere. Forget details. > >Question when were the nose ladders added and was keystone moved up when >repainted with single stripe?? Ladder was added per government regulation. Not sure of date. Single stripe was in 1956. See http://prr.dsop.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/index.html on "Keystone Crossings" for painting and lettering diagrams and other info. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:24:50 EST Subject: Re: DGLE Content-Length: 327 To All, Gee, that Red 5-Stripe scheme didn't last long! :) Long live the Single Broad Stripe! Ed Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:53:17 EST Subject: Re: Bowser Q-2 or J1 - It ain't happening! Content-Length: 392 If I were picking the next engine (which won't happen) I'd suggest one smaller PRR boiler which could make an E-5 on the E-6 chassis and an H-6 on the H-9 chassis Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:15:37 EST Subject: Re: BP20 question(reply) Content-Length: 997 Joe and all, I notice that the small retangular "grids" , for a lack of a better term were not part of the "as delivered" Sharks. They seem to appear some time after their 1st major re-shopping in the early 50's (53/54?) perhaps when they were painted Tuscan. They do not even appear to blocaled exactly in hte same spot (see Pennsy Power 2 pg.260 L/L units 5778 & 5777 none on the 5771). I am not sure of their use but I have agree they are likely for ventilation/circulation of the cab or perhaps the toilet. My request is that the detail part remain a thinnly cast piece that the modeler neatly adds himself, to the spec of his/her unit. If it is included I can use it at my discretion. If it not availible it may cause the modeler some grief. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:29:33 EST Subject: Re: BP20 question/reply Content-Length: 800 To All , The rectangle openings are to allow cool air to be vented to the traction motors up front. They are not "windows" and they are not found on all BP-20s. Just like the dual headlights some had them some did not. Please check your photos for the time period your modeling. Open doors on cab units in the summer were a must. No Pennsy engine was ever equiped with air conditioning. The railroad didn't like the front door opened and it was a real bad thing if you hit anything or needed to use the "john". Just imagine that with the door mounted light on! Ed Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:57:55 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 4483 Greetings to S.A. McCall and the list: I'm no Baldwin diesel expert, but I have been editing a new book by Withers Publishing (#4 in the series) that features all PRR Baldwin road units (freight and passenger sharks and center-cab transfer units). It will be released later in the spring. So I'll take a crack at trying to answer a few questions. Here goes. > In W.A. Feibelman's book "Rails to Pittsburgh" pg is a pic of #5771a.> Caption says "two large headlights seem to be unique to 5771 Sharknose,..."> Also on same page #5780a and preceeding page #5772a have single headlights and no horns! Question were dual headlights used only on #5770a & 5771a? Why no horns? Units 5770-A and 5771-A were the only two units to be delivered with dual headlights. However, at some point in the mid-1950s, 5770-A suffered some body damage and its nose was rebuilt with a single headlight like all the others. On the horns, anybody's guess! The builder's photos and some early in-service shots show no visible horns; they were probably mounted under the pilot or someplace like that. One misplaced honk while an old lady passenger was standing next to that on the platform at Terre Haute may have resulted in the topside mounting that resulted -- who knows? In any event, the first horns were single-bell versions, later repalced with three-bell horns. > In Kalmbach's book "Diesel Locomotives cyclopedia Vol 2", pg 86 there are 3 photos. The upper left photo #5777a is shown at Harrisburg a year or so after delivery per the caption. Has small horizontal grab, single > headlight, keystone toward bottom of nose and single horn above engineers side. Still has 5 stripe paint with circular Keystone and no nose stripes. The lower photo #5775a has the same configuration as #5777a except now has nose stripes. Caption says "....1952....". The upper left photo #5773a now has a single stripe, large numberboards, no horizontal grab, keystone is just below the single headlight, ladder just behind the numberboards and a 3 chime horn. The caption says "... a few months before retirement...". > > Question when were the nose ladders added and was keystone moved up when repainted with single stripe?? Nose ladders were added to comply with ICC requirements about 1959-60. Same as on other road units (RF16, DR-4-4-1500, F3/F7/FP7, E7-E8, etc., OOOoops, BF15, BF16, BF16z, EF15, EF15a, EFP15, EP20, EP22) I've examined the freight and passenger shark photos we're using in the book and the LATEST dated photos showing NO engineer's-side exterior ladder on the nose are June 8, 1960 (BP20 unit 5785-A) and September 1961 (BF-15 unit 9577-A), while the EARLIEST photos showing units WITH a ladder are July 16, 1960 (BF-16z [regeared passenger] unit 5785-A and "early 1960" (BF-15 unit 9705-A). The nose keystone was moved to a higher position (and changed from steam-engine-type number to interlaced P-R-R) BEFORE the repainting to single stripe. Many photos exist of five-stripe engines (both green and red) showing the P-R-R nose keystone in the higher position. Units were delivered with no nose striping; it was added later by PRR. The progresion of five paint schemes was as follows, with the understanding that it is not a certainty that all units wore all possible schemes. A grade crossing accident could cause one unit to be repainted into a newer scheme, while another sister unit might not be repainted until that "newer" scheme itself was obsolete, and thus the unit might have skipped an interim scheme. 1. Green, five stripes from keystone behind cab door back (all BP20s delivered this way). 2. Green, five stripes from nose back. 2a. Green, single narrow stripe (by 1953, the following eight units were regeared for freight service: 5784-A through 5787-A and 5780-B through 5786-B (even numbers only on B units) -- possible, but doubtful, that any of these were painted red (see next item). 3. Red, five stripes from nose back (effective late 1952). 4. Red, single broad stripe and larger road name. No information on the vent/window question. One other note: The actual count was 18 A units and 9 B units, for a fleet total of 27. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:56:58 -0500 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: Re: New PRR Products (HO) Content-Length: 1874 I think this was reviewed in the latest PRRTH&S Keystone J Bruce Andrews wrote: > Laird, Bill (GWise) wrote: > > > > Date: 03/16/1998 08:12 pm (Monday) > > From: Bill Laird > > To: INET.MAIL:"prr-talk@dsop.com" > > Subject: New PRR Products (HO) > > > > Page 8 of the April MR issue product news announced the availability of > > a plastic and photoetched brass PRR K11 stockcar kit from Sparrows > > Point Division, P.O. Box 325, Telford, PA 18969. The photo of the > > completed kit looks great. Price is $24.95 plus $4.50 shipping, each kit! > > How about Jerry or Joe Zappa contacting Sparrows Point Div and see if > > they could get dealer terms on a large order and pass some savings > > along to the group. This is a really PRR unique car and several in a > > consist would look great. > > I picked up two of these kits at the Springfield train show a few weeks > back. I have not built them yet, but they look very interesting. You > start with a Bowser X31 with the sides removed, then add back new sides > , etc. from parts suplied. This is real close to how the prototypes were > built I think. > > My question is how common were these 40 ' long K11's. All the photos > that I have seen of this type of car were the 50' long K9's built from > X32's. I wonder if Sparrows Point will be doing a K9 kit as well. (I > even have an undecorated X32 that I planed to kit-bash.) > > Bruce Andrews > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:34:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 706 On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Dan Cupper wrote: > Greetings to S.A. McCall and the list: > > I'm no Baldwin diesel expert, but I have been editing a new book by > Withers Publishing (#4 in the series) that features all PRR Baldwin road > units (freight and passenger sharks and center-cab transfer units). It > will be released later in the spring. So I'll take a crack at trying to > answer a few questions. Here goes. Ooooh, I now await this... any estimate on when it'll be out? -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:31:50 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 1209 Derrick J Brashear wrote: >> new book by Withers Publishing (#4 in the series) that features all PRR Baldwin road units (freight and passenger sharks and center-cab transfer units). > Ooooh, I now await this... any estimate on when it'll be out? Since there are page proofs lying on my desk as I type this, the short answer is, not next week. But on the other hand, Paul (Withers) would love to have it available at this year's PRRT&HS convention in Lancaster (April 30-May 2). That can happen if all other projects in his publishing pipeline go as smoothly as now envisioned. He's very production oriented and so if I were betting (and having worked with him for six years now on both magazines and books), I'd say it'll happen. As noted, this is the fourth in the series of PRR diesel motive power pictorials -- #1 was Alco RSs, #2 was Baldwin switchers/road-switchers, and #3 was EMD second-generation road switchers. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:41:38 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: BP20's Content-Length: 982 Greetings, I hope someone has collected all this good data and will post on KC. Nose windows? Just goes to show that a picture can fool one as to whether it's a window or a vent with small mesh screening. These are vents! Horns? I wasn't able to find a pic of the early units showing the horns located in the middle. Several pics from the firemans side do not show the horn. The new book by Withers will have the pic I'll bet. The first three have been excellent references for PRR fans. Number of units? 27 without a doubt. 23 came from my faulty memory. Details?? Shame on you if you model a BP20 and don't have pics of that particular unit. Great replies all, and appreciated........ Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:04:13 EST Subject: Re: Re: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 435 Thank you Mr Cupper for your accurate and insightful posting on the BP20s. It is nice to see well researched and documented data, a lesson on presentation others on the list should learn from. Thanks Again Brad Bower ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Shark comments... Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:13:38 -0500 Content-Length: 456 Thanks to ALL who have contributed to this discussion on BP-20 Sharks. Those who end up with our Shark models later this year will certainly see the benefit of these discussions !!! Most Sincerely, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:53:56 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 862 Bobspf wrote: > ...Pennsy Diesel Years Vol. 5... > I was stunned in that book to find that E8s 5700-5701 had Mars lights --been > an SPF since E8s were manufactured and never knew they had any. > I was under impression second headlight on 5770-5771 as a fog light, not > oscillating. Anyone know? > In Mike Schafer and Brian Solomon's book _Pennsylvania Railroad_, pub 1997 by Motorbooks International, page 35, is a picture of E8 (EP22) 4271 with a blanked-out headlight housing in the lower (door) position. They date the photo from 1966. 4271 does not show up in Jerry's rosters; this was apparently the new PC number. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:47:11 EST Subject: Re: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 645 In a message dated 98-03-16 21:18:26 EST, I wrote : << I was under impression second headlight on 5770-5771 as a fog light, not oscillating. Anyone know? >> Answering my own question, In Pennsy Diesel Years Vol. 1 roster, 5770 and 5771 were listed as having Mars light which I take to mean oscillating. Also, in one of many books I read last night, it said that the top headlight was eventually blanked out. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:49:18 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: P2K E-7B's Content-Length: 486 Folks, Try: MB Klein (RMC) 1-888-872-4675 Just Trains (MR) 1-800-424-0580 and, just on a chance, Orange Blossom Hobbies 1-305-633-1517 I have become impressed with MB Klein. They give good service, they discount, and they don't do everything by computer. Frank ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:06:59 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Where is Krelvnyville? Content-Length: 1199 The recent letters regarding "where is Elrico, PA?" reminded me that there is a Web resource which each of us might find useful. The Geological Survey runs a server at www-nmd.usgs.gov/www/gnis/gnisform.html

GNIS stands for Geographic Name Information Sytem (or Server). Give it a name, such as Elrico, tell it you are interested in Pennsylvania only, and it will come up with zero or more things named "Elrico".

With patience, the system will show you a map of where the named thing is in the US, and a more detailed map of the surroundings of the named thing. I've found it useful (although not fool-proof) for a first shot at "where the Devil is...?", a question which seems to come up often in railroad history.

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at Yahoo! Mail.
------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:32:54 EST Subject: Question concerning Cleveland docks Content-Length: 939 Rose Mary Hoge of Cleveland asks: "I have been trying to find out more about the electric locomotives that the Pennsylvania Railroad used at the Cleveland Ohio docks in the 1930's "I found a picture of one in a book called Pennsy power but the only information given was that the locomotive was a "special purpose" (R Ross) These locomotives - were not road equipment but I presume were part of the Coal or Ore Dock for pushing cars ( the picture in Pennsy Power is of a pair of Diesels) Mrs Hoge is a librarian helping a "customer" with a research project This inquiry came to me through Mark Bej's site Can anyone help me steerr this lady to sources on these dock locos? Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:39:34 EST Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch et al Content-Length: 700 Hi Dan: OK I'll date myself PSU Class of ' 70. Many fond memories of treking across Parking lot 80 and many a Saturday spent following the Clearfield and Bald Eagle branches. Not only do I remember Sharks et.al. I vividly remember trips with my father and grandfather (John Orr) Chief Electrical Engineer Pittsburgh Division when he retired in 1963) to the scrap yards in Sharpsburg with strings if I1s', M1's. J1's, T1's all awaiting the torch in the early 60's. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:00:53 EST Subject: Re: DGLE? Content-Length: 1175 In a message dated 98-03-15 13:48:11 EST, Hal6963@aol.com writes: << Perhaps the question should be "what did the Pennsy call it," for example the PRR had its own classification system for diesel locomotives, as I understand it they did not use the manufacturer's classification. Should not the same apply to paint and a myriad of other items. If the PRR had a name for it we should use that name. I believe I read somewhere that the Pennsy even had a formula for DGLE. >> PRR Painting diagrams refer to this as Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (On some it is simply Dark Green Locomotive Paint) ref. 47-2247 and 47-2626. The official drift cards sent to paint manufacturers for color match are labeled Dark Green Locomotive Enamel There is at least one "official" formula for DGLE -- 10 gallons of dark green mixed with 7 gallons of black as I recall. THere was an earlier discussion ob this. It may be in the list archive. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:42:55 EST Subject: Re: DGLE vs Brunswick Green Content-Length: 521 In a message dated 98-03-14 17:01:15 EST, hosam@gc.net writes: << Any comment on the descriptive term Tuscan Red? What do the official PRR documents label this color? Anyway both colors were a sight to remember. >> Official painting diagrams refer to this as"Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel" Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:20:23 EST Subject: Re: Question concerning Cleveland docks Content-Length: 1294 There are a couple of pretty good pictures of them on page 44 of the Winter 1987 Keystone. They are described as "Electric shunt motors" that use a "covered third rail between the shunt's narrow gauge running rails." They had "pushing arms" that rotated from vertical (stowed) to horizontal (operational). "In the horizontal position, they [the arms] contact the end sills of the [ore] jennies on either side of the shunt." The pictures are dated October 1986. John Keel In a message dated 98-03-17 16:37:26 EST, VVA249@aol.com writes: << Rose Mary Hoge of Cleveland asks: "I have been trying to find out more about the electric locomotives that the Pennsylvania Railroad used at the Cleveland Ohio docks in the 1930's "I found a picture of one in a book called Pennsy power but the only information given was that the locomotive was a "special purpose" (R Ross) These locomotives - were not road equipment but I presume were part of the Coal or Ore Dock for pushing cars ( the picture in Pennsy Power is of a pair of Diesels) >> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:00:04 EST Subject: DGLE, PRR Shade & Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel Content-Length: 2033 To All, Well now you've got me digging out things I haven't looked at in many years. The copies of Diesel Electric Locomotive Lettering Striping And Painting diagrams I have show the folowing: FM "Erie Builts" Dark Green Locomotive Paint PRR Shade Ref.47-2626 BLW Pass. "Sharks" Dark Green Locomotive Paint PRR Shade Ref. None Shown BLW "Centipedes" Dark Green Locomotive Paint PRR Shade Ref.47-2626 BLW Frt. "Sharks" Dark Green Locomotive Paint PRR Shade Ref. None Shown EMD Pass. E-8A Dark Green Locomotive Paint PRR Shade Ref. None Shown ALCo Frt. C-628 Dark Green Locomotive Paint PRR Shade Ref. None Shown PRR GG-1 Electric Dark Green Locomotive Enamel Ref.47-2626 Early schemes indacate two-coats of DGLE Paint PRR Shade and one or two coats of varnish. BLW "Centipedes" Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel* Ref. None Shown EMD Pass. E-8A Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel, PRR Ref. 47-3258 EMD Pass./Frt. FP-7A Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel Ref. 47-3258 EMD Pass./Frt. FP-7B Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel, PRR Ref. 47-3258 Latter schemes require three-coats of either DGLE or STRE, usually PRR Shade. All diagrams show this paint on the pilot and above line "A". Line "A" being the bottom of the locomotive car body. Below line "A" two coats of black were required. The one constant throughout all of this is the black below the car body line. Which by the way is similar to the way Pennsy painted their steam locomotives. Early diagrams note: "Color cards for matching P.R.R. shades may be secured from the General Purchasing Agent". *Though the diagrams show STRE on "Centipedes" and some claim two or three sets were painted. I know of no color photos that prove this scheme existed. Ed Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Archive Search Engine (& Other DB) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 06:23:33 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1822 On 3/17/98 11:18 PM, James K Bunger (gg1electric@juno.com) wrote: > I have not been able to retrieve the messages that the search engine >found. The machine at work said that there was a "broken pipe" and here >at home the message idicated that 192.168.1.2 was not responding. Is >this me (likely) or a wrinkle caused by the recent upgrades. I am addressing an "anomoly" with regards to my database...which affects both the listserv database and the Diesel Locomotive database. All worked fine when I had all of my servers on one machine. Over the weekend, I split the load to two machines. The one with the web server is behind the firewall and uses a "192.x.x.x" IP address, which is Internet non-routable. (Don't mean to get technical.) Anyway, it is the job of the firewall to re-route incoming Web requests to the web server so that the user's browser "thinks" it is all on the same machine. It is, in fact, doing this job fine. However, the database itself, when it creates a "results" table, is placing it's own IP address into the link, rather than the "public" IP it should be inserting. This WILL require some intervention on behalf of the software publisher. So stay tuned. Minor setback. You MAY be able to retrieve from the database by clicking on the link, receiving the error, and replacing the IP address in the link with "204.186.21.83" and trying it again. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 8:28:20 -0600 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: Re: Question concerning Cleveland docks -Reply Content-Length: 1725 Date: 03/18/1998 02:09 pm (Wednesday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: Re: Question concerning Cleveland docks -Reply I beleive there are some good photographs in one of the Pennsy Diesel Years books. Don't remember which one and I am at work so don't have them handy to reference. Bill Laird >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 03/17/98 08:20pm wrote>>> > >There are a couple of pretty good pictures of them on page >44 of the Winter 1987 Keystone. They are described as >"Electric shunt motors" that use a "covered third rail between >the shunt's narrow gauge running rails." They had "pushing >arms" that rotated from vertical (stowed) to horizontal >(operational). "In the horizontal position, they [the arms] >contact the end sills of the [ore] jennies on either side of the shunt." > >The pictures are dated October 1986. > >John Keel > In a message dated 98-03-17 16:37:26 EST, VVA249@aol.com writes: << Rose Mary Hoge of Cleveland asks:>> >> "I have been trying to find out more about the electric >>locomotives that the Pennsylvania Railroad used at the >>Cleveland Ohio docks in the 1930's "I found a picture >>of one in a book called Pennsy power but the only >> information given was that the locomotive was a >>"special purpose" (R Ross) These locomotives - were >>not road equipment but I presume were part of the Coal >>or Ore Dock for pushing cars ( the picture in Pennsy Power >>is of a pair of Diesels) >> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 11:49:23 CST Subject: Re: Question concerning Cleveland docks Content-Length: 1749 On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:32:54 EST, VVA249 wrote: >Rose Mary Hoge of Cleveland asks: > "I have been trying to find out more about the electric locomotives that >the Pennsylvania Railroad used at the Cleveland Ohio docks in the 1930's > "I found a picture of one in a book called Pennsy power but the only >information given was that the locomotive was a "special purpose" > (R Ross) These locomotives - were not road equipment but I presume were >part of the Coal or Ore Dock for pushing cars ( the picture in Pennsy Power is >of a pair of Diesels) > Mrs Hoge is a librarian helping a "customer" with a research project This >inquiry came to me through Mark Bej's site Can anyone help me steerr this lady >to sources on these dock locos? >Dick Ross >Cleveland Hi, all, If someone hasen't already answered the question, I photographed these interesting beasts when I was just a wet-behind-the-ears foamer in the late 1960's. The locos had Baldwin builders plates, which I photographed, and if I remember right, the construction dates were 1912. That would make these easily the oldest locomotives on the PRR at the time. Let me know if these photos might interest anyone. I only shot about five frames (I wish now that I'd shot about 50 rolls of the docks and locos!) and they were b & w and I'd have to dig them out from my piles of railroad stuff. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: Re: DGLE, PRR Shade & Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:04:09 -0500 Content-Length: 688 Ed, Thank you for the digging and providing a most informative post!! Steve Sejda ---------- > From: ELM2 > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: DGLE, PRR Shade & Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel > Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 1:00 AM > > To All, > Well now you've got me digging out things I haven't looked at in many > years. The copies of Diesel Electric Locomotive Lettering Striping And > Painting diagrams I have show the folowing: ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:04:39 EST Subject: Re: New PRR Products (HO) Content-Length: 910 In a message dated 98-03-16 17:50:58 EST, bandrews@apdevint.mv.com writes: << My question is how common were these 40 ' long K11's. All the photos that I have seen of this type of car were the 50' long K9's built from X32's. I wonder if Sparrows Point will be doing a K9 kit as well. (I even have an undecorated X32 that I planed to kit-bash.) >> Bruce: If you look closely at the decal sheet which is included in the kit, the class, demensional data and some road numbers for the K9 , K9a and K9b are included. I have assumed this is a sign of things to come. Although when I ordered my kits I asked it the K9 series would be forthcoming and recieved no response. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:09:13 EST Subject: Re: more BP20 questions Content-Length: 540 ONly 5770a and 5771a had the dual headlights. The one light was a true headlight and the other an oscillating "Mars" type light. The PRR did not find any use for Mars lights and deleted them from future orders. 5770 amd 5771 where the original demos built with all the bells and whistles (please excuse the pun) Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 13:51:28 CST Subject: New PRR videos... Content-Length: 616 Hi, everyone, I just noticed that Mark I Video's latest ad on the back cover of RR & RF indicate two new PRR videos for sale - one on eastern lines, and the second showing steam on the Middle Div and Horseshoe Curve. Anyone seen these? Are they worth $29 bucks? PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:06:03 EST Subject: Re: New PRR Products (HO) Content-Length: 424 Regarding the K-9 cars from Sparrows Point. I talked with John Greene the owner of Sparrows point last weekend and he told me that the K-9 was a definite future project. Probably early or mid 99. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:26:38 EST Subject: Re: East Pittsburgh Branch et al Content-Length: 628 In a message dated 98-03-17 19:44:57 EST, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << I vividly remember trips with my father and grandfather (John Orr) Chief Electrical Engineer Pittsburgh Division when he retired in 1963) to the scrap yards in Sharpsburg with strings if I1s', M1's. J1's, T1's all awaiting the torch in the early 60's. >> Rich, Those are not memories those are nightmares!!!! Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:07:38 -0500 From: "Robert G. McKeever, II" Subject: Modular shows State College/Altoona Content-Length: 1735 For those in the area... The Penn State Model Railroad Club announces the debut of the their HO scale modules at our Spring 1998 Open House (Ok, so we don't have a house to open, but why change our terminology just because we haven't run a train since 10/10/97 on our now-departed fourth layout) Our show is divided into two parts: A two-day stint at University Park, with a single day at Penn State Altoona the next weekend. Admission is free State College/University Park April 18-19, 10am-6pm Saturday, 10am-5pm Sunday HUB Gallery Lounge Hetzel Union Building Altoona/Ivyside Park April 25th, 10am-6pm TV Lounge Slep Student Center further info can be had via our website: http://www.clubs.psu.edu/mrrc/ All are welcome to visit-- Guest modules welcome too. (NMRA standard) Of recent news was the donation of an entire Ntrak module to our club -- making two completed Ntrak modules with a third on the way. In HO, we're currently at about 12-15 modules with 20 the plan for the fall show. Sorry for the bandwidth... Rob McKeever State College/Altoona PA -- Robert G. McKeever, II, KC4VDN rmckeever@psu.edu _____________________________ | ______ |_| | |_||_| | Richmond, Fredericksburg --------------------------|______ and Potomac Railroad ____________123___| | -------/ | | | 1834-1992 _________________|________|______| http://trainweb.com/rf&p ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: carl.haslett@lmco.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:46:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Modular shows State College/Altoona Content-Length: 760 Rob - Thanks for the news about your modular layout's debut. For those who may not know, the Altoona campus dates that Rob posted coincide with the weekend that the Railroaders' Memorial Museum in Altoona is having its official dedication / opening of the Master Mechanics Building headquarters. So for anyone planning to be in town for that event, be sure to stop over to the Altoona/Ivyside Park Campus. Its only a few miles from the downtown, and well signed as I last remember. Carl Haslett (born, raised, and still an Altoonan at heart) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Modular shows State College/Altoona Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 12:23:20 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1301 On 3/19/98 12:46 PM, carl.haslett@lmco.com (carl.haslett@lmco.com) wrote: >Rob - Thanks for the news about your modular layout's debut. > >For those who may not know, the Altoona campus dates that Rob posted >coincide with the weekend that the Railroaders' Memorial Museum in Altoona >is having its official dedication / opening of the Master Mechanics >Building headquarters. So for anyone planning to be in town for that >event, be sure to stop over to the Altoona/Ivyside Park Campus. Its only >a few miles from the downtown, and well signed as I last remember. And for those who are Penn State grads/fans (I know several on the list), it is also Blue/White weekend at Penn State... a half hour away. Features a free spring scrimmage football game at Beaver Stadium. Last year there were a record 60,000 on hand in unusually warm weather. I'll be there...join the tailgate! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/16/98, Brunswick Green Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:20:40 -0500 Content-Length: 1749 Harold: The PRR did have a formulation for Brunswick Green and for all the other paints they used. I spent 45 years of my industrial life as a paint chemist, formulating evaluating and specifying paints for the company formerly known as Westinghouse. I am now an industrial paint consultant. I collect information on PRR paints, and have some of the formulations (as early as 1891). Although I do not have a formulation for DGLE (if I may), I do have a color drift card. Using my years of experience and practiced eye, the formulation is as follows: Add to and thoroughly mix one (1) thimbleful of Kelly green into a fifty five (55) gallon drum of black paint. My point is DGLE is black, not green like most of our friendly model railroad manufacturers are supplying. If you don't believe me, get a copy of the color drift card from the PRRT&HS. I wouldn't go anywhere without it. (This is not a paid advertisement) Carl P. Izzo > > Subject: Re: DGLE? > From: Hal6963 > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:44:33 EST > > Perhaps the question should be "what did the Pennsy call it," for example the > PRR had its own classification system for diesel locomotives, as I understand > it they did not use the manufacturer's classification. Should not the same > apply to paint and a myriad of other items. If the PRR had a name for it we > should use that name. > > I believe I read somewhere that the Pennsy even had a formula for DGLE. > > Harold McGee > Gainesville, FL > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Kato N Scale passenger cars Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:51:37 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 945 Now that Kato has unbundled their N scale passenger cars, I'm thinking of buying a few undec's and painting them for PRR, assuming they're appropriate. I ignored them when first released, mostly because I didn't like the set marketing scheme, and the color and style didn't match anything else I had. They're quite pricey at MSRP $24.98 retail, so if they're not dead-on, I won't be bothering. Did anybody keep track of the correctness of the shells for Pennsy cars? Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: ListServ Upgrade 40% funded Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 17:01:29 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 811 I received another $20 donation today. That's $40 towards the listserv upgrade! Again, if I reach $100 by the end of the month, I will purchase the listserv upgrade. Most of the advantages to the new version are on the recipient side, rather than on my side. After March 31, the upgrade goes to $145. For info on donating, see http://prr.dsop.com/support.html Thanks! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:33:54 EST Subject: PRR 1910 Book of Rules Content-Length: 478 I just received the above referenced hard cover book (154 pages) and it is in great condition (acquired through eBay Auction), Rule Book Registration No. 51796. Anyone who has any PRR questions that might be answered by this book please feel free to ask. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:49:53 EST Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/16/98, Brunswick Green Content-Length: 739 I have to disagree with the recent comment from Carl Izzo about DGLE or Brunswick Green actually being black. I remember seeing freshly shopped G- motors with single stripes and I know what color they were....it's obvious that no one agrees on the name. Those engines I saw were very gark green or black with a green cast, if you prefer, but jet black is not the correct answer. Granted when they got dirty, hard to believe for Pennsy, huh) they definitely looked black to me, but clean and fresh they were green. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:15:58 EST Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/16/98, Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1145 In a message dated 98-03-19 15:37:52 EST, Carl P. Izzo writes: << Although I do not have a formulation for DGLE (if I may), I do have a color drift card. Using my years of experience and practiced eye, the formulation is as follows: Add to and thoroughly mix one (1) thimbleful of Kelly green into a fifty five (55) gallon drum of black paint. My point is DGLE is black, not green like most of our friendly model railroad manufacturers are supplying. >> This is close to what I've heard. I talked to Lee Riley of Bachman when they were first doing their K4. He told me that he found some kind of PRR paint record, and that the formula was one quart green to 55 gallons of black. <> I agree on the usefulness of the drift cards. John Keel >> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:00:48 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Kato N Scale passenger cars Content-Length: 775 Dennis Rockwell wrote: > Now that Kato has unbundled their N scale passenger cars, > I'm thinking of buying a few undec's and painting them for.... Hello,Did you say that Kato is now offering their passenger cars singly? Instead of the 4-car and 6-car sets? I bought four 6-car sets that I painted up for PRR and Milwaukee Road. 2 of the sets I want to create the FOM scheme and add some more standard PRR cars. Soon I hope to work on a decal set for the FOM. I've got some ideas that I think will make for a nice set of decals. Cheers, Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:24:21 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: BP20 question Content-Length: 784 On Mar 16 s. a. mccall wrote: >> it is said "One of the banes of photographing sharks in the summer was the air conditioning efforts of the crews who often left the nose door ajar to scoop up a breeze" << Wasn't there a tragic accident, not necessarily on the PRR, where a diesel unit with front door open struck a fuel truck at a crossing and the cab crew was engulfed by burning fuel sucked in the door ? I believe the practise was banned after that, at least on lines with grade crossings. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 20:35 19-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:24:19 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: Classification lights Content-Length: 776 Two red lights have traditionally indicated the REAR of a train. Thus if a GG1 were running light on the main track it would show red markers to the rear, and probably white to the front as a extra movement. A steam locomotive running light in reverse would show two red lights on the smokebox or pilot beam. In both cases the headlight at the rear (away from direction of travel) would be out. In later years, Pennsy substituted a single blinking red light for the two constant red ones. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 20:26 19-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:22:00 EST Subject: Re: Web Site For Rails-To-Trails in PA Content-Length: 440 There is a sight that gives interesting information regarding abondoned rail lines by county in the interest of rail-to-trail conversion. Active lines are also shown. The site is: http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/rails/data.htm ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:17:45 -0500 Subject: T-1 once again Content-Length: 752 I have a question for those that have built T-1s. Although I have built several ts, I have never been able to figure out how to install a seuthe smoke unit in one. Has any one done such a thing? Also, legend has it that one can stop the engine's articukation and that Bowser used to have a part to do this. When i built my Ts between 1980 and 1983, Bowser had stopped making the piece. What does any one know about this topic? MD Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:59:13 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Nose Doors Content-Length: 883 Kent Loudon wrote: S. A. McCall wrote: >... Wasn't there a tragic accident, not necessarily on the PRR, where a diesel > unit with front door open struck a fuel truck at a crossing and the cab > crew was engulfed by burning fuel sucked in the door ? I believe the > practise was banned after that, at least on lines with grade crossings. > It has happened more than once, and the door did not have to be open. It often opened during the impact. Some railroads welded the nose doors shut after that. The doors on the new wide-nose locos open outward, i.e., are larger than the door opening, to prevent that occurrence from repeating. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:14:27 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: DGLE & Railworks Content-Length: 1942 Hi all, First, do we HAVE to have this discussion over green vs black every six months? It gets a little tiring to here the same thing over and over! (particularly when it is often opinion, not backed up by fact) FACT: the PRR NEVER used the term "Brunswick Green" FACT: The PRR used DGLE up to the bitter end - no units were painted black FACT: Even on B&W film, DGLE can be distinguished from black FACT: The formula for DGLE is available and has been seen on this list (and it is not "a drop of green in a bucket of black") ...and now...to throw gasoline on that fire... Does ANYONE on this list think that the color of the recent Railworks I-1 and L-1 locomotives was anywhere near DGLE? Personally, they look like Southern Railway locos because they are so goldarn GREEN. I am on the lookout for one of the few unpainted units, as the detail was superb. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: DGLE Date: Fri, 20 Mar 98 09:52:18 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 963 On 3/20/98 10:14 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >First, do we HAVE to have this discussion over green vs black every six >months? It gets a little tiring to here the same thing over and over! Me too! Fortunately, we now have a list archive online! http://prr.dsop.com/prrtalk.html For the newbies...during our last discussion on DGLE, I appointed Bruce the "Dean of PRR Painting and Lettering" or some such thing. In fact, when modeling, he's got a secret formula for DGLE I like to call "Bruce Smith Color"! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:20:24 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: DGLE Content-Length: 616 I just checked the archive. There are 113 posts pertaining to DGLE. Since this archive can be used as a FAQ using a topic search, I suggest, unless someone has something new to add, individuals asking questions about these recurrent topics be directed to the archive. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: DGLE Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:32:45 -0500 Content-Length: 689 ---------- > From: Jerry_Britton > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: DGLE > Date: Friday, March 20, 1998 8:52 AM >>SNIP<<< > For the newbies...during our last discussion on DGLE, I appointed Bruce > the "Dean of PRR Painting and Lettering" or some such thing. In fact, > when modeling, he's got a secret formula for DGLE I like to call "Bruce > Smith Color"! Oh great, now we can have a discussion about BSLE ! :) Joe Zappa ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:49:39 EST Subject: Re: DGLE Content-Length: 886 GEE!!!! Sorry, guys. I'm a "newbie" and I just thought I was getting along with everyone here by joining in on the DGLE conversation. I wasn't aware of the archives just mentioned and I thought this was an open forum to discuss things with fellow Pennsy fans on our favorite subject. Being new I also didn't know this was an old topic and boring to you. Maybe when a new name shows up you can inform the person what is permissable to discuss. I'll check the archives so I don't ruffle anyones feathers in the future. Aren't BP-20's getting a little boring too? If the DGLE subject is so boring why don't people get answers to the other questions they ask? Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: DGLE Date: Fri, 20 Mar 98 11:54:20 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1927 On 3/20/98 11:49 AM, Huber25 (Huber25@aol.com) wrote: >GEE!!!! Sorry, guys. I'm a "newbie" and I just thought I was getting along >with everyone here by joining in on the DGLE conversation. I wasn't aware of >the archives just mentioned and I thought this was an open forum to discuss >things with fellow Pennsy fans on our favorite subject. Being new I also >didn't know this was an old topic and boring to you. Maybe when a new name >shows up you can inform the person what is permissable to discuss. I'll check >the archives so I don't ruffle anyones feathers in the future. No slight intended. Didn't even know who made the original post or how long they've been on the list. Probably you should've been referred to the archive immediately. I don't catch the beginings of all discussions. Anyone can refer queries to the archives. Yes, there is an archive: http://prr.dsop.com/prrtalk.html Yes, there is a FAQ, including a Glossary: http://prr.dsop.com/faqs/index.html > >Aren't BP-20's getting a little boring too? But there is new information coming out...rather than a rediscussion of the same material. Also, there are finally models coming out...Liberty Model Productions: http://liberty.dsop.com > >If the DGLE subject is so boring why don't people get answers to the other >questions they ask? Maybe nobody has info on the questions that you ask. Most of the questions get answered in more detail than the poster even hoped for. Again, no slight intended. Enjoy the list. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Kato N Scale passenger cars Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:52:48 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 824 On 19 Mar, Roger Elliott wrote: > > Now that Kato has unbundled their N scale passenger cars, > > I'm thinking of buying a few undec's and painting them for.... > > Hello, Did you say that Kato is now offering their passenger cars singly? Yes; however, it's clearly a clearance "sale" because the only roadnames available are BN (understandably a poor seller) and UNDEC. As other respondents have pointed out, it appears that the only close match was the coach. Given the price, I'll be buying Union Station sides and Con-Cor junkers at shows and paint *them* instead. Thanks, all! Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:27:10 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Kato N Scale passenger cars Content-Length: 597 Dennis Rockwell wrote: > On 19 Mar, Roger Elliott wrote: > > Hello, Did you say that Kato is now offering their passenger cars > singly? > > Yes; however, it's clearly a clearance "sale" because the > only roadnames available are BN (understandably a poor > seller) and UNDEC. Where can I get the cars? Who is selling them and has them in stock? Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Kato N Scale passenger cars Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:56:50 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1190 On 20 Mar, Roger Elliott wrote: > Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > > On 19 Mar, Roger Elliott wrote: > > > Hello, Did you say that Kato is now offering their passenger cars > > singly? > > > > Yes; however, it's clearly a clearance "sale" because the > > only roadnames available are BN (understandably a poor > > seller) and UNDEC. > > Where can I get the cars? Who is selling them and has them in stock? >From Kato's web page (http://www.katousa.com), it appears that their usual outlets should be able to get them. Since the announcement is very recent, I wouldn't expect anybody to have them in stock yet, nor are they in Walther's online catalog at this point. Also, reading the fine print indicates that Kato is offering a mixed set with twelve cars in it, period. No part numbers for individual cars. This will *not* be popular with dealers, although the distributors might be willing or able to break them up. Damned set mentality! Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:22:43 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Nose Doors - Clarification Content-Length: 442 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > The doors on the new wide-nose locos open outward, > i.e., are larger than the door opening, to prevent that occurrence from > repeating. > I meant to say "...The nose doors..." Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:35:56 -0500 Content-Length: 477 Hi All, Question: Were the PRR Alco PA/PB units delivered with or without dynamic brakes? I just bought some Undec Proto2000 PA/PB units w/ dynamics and would hate to have to break out the sandpaper! Thanks in advance for any and all input! Steve Sejda ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Searchable Databases Fixed Date: Fri, 20 Mar 98 20:59:56 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 990 I've installed a new rev of my web server. The publisher was VERY responsive to the IP addressing issue and created a new build for me within 24 hours. Seems to work great! As a convenience, I've created a new page linking to all my databases (more to come). See http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html Please report bugs related to the new web server. Note that the background color does not randomly change as it had before. Nor will the Grif Teller image. I will need to toggle these manually -- for now -- until my publisher adds this capability. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:56:00 EST Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/16/98, Brunswick Green Content-Length: 505 In a message dated 98-03-19 19:54:47 EST, Huber25@aol.com writes: << they definitely looked black to me, but clean and fresh they were green. >> Anyone who saw the Penn Central and Amtrak GG1's, which really were black, will agree that DGLE was definitely different. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 00:56:03 EST Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question/without! Content-Length: 357 Steve, Sorry buddy Pennsy didn't have them. Are they cast on ? I guess you'll have a set the guy down the street won't have. Ed Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Searchable Databases Fixed (again) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 08:14:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 826 On 3/20/98 11:00 PM, Stephen Bartlett (sbartlet@capecod.net) wrote: > As info - I tried the attached URL - when I click on either the Mailing >List Archive link or the Diesel Locomotive Roster link I get the >locomotive search page: That's what I get for "copy and pasting" the links! It only happened on the new "Databases" page...was alright from the "Motive Ops" and "PRR-Talk" pages. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:04:25 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: Nose Doors Content-Length: 601 >> From: Stephen Bartlett Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:22:43 -0500 The doors on the new wide-nose locos open outward, i.e., are larger than the door opening, to prevent that occurrence from repeating. << Don't these units have air conditioned cabs, which negates the "open-door" practise ? - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 10:56 21-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:58:24 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: K-4 Beer Content-Length: 989 Hi folks... while on a trip to a local store last night i found a beer bottle that had a picture of a pre-war(high headlight-bar pilot) K-4 on it... this was in a local "Farm Fresh" here in Va. the name of the beer is Tasmanian Pale Ale...brewed by the Devil Mountain Brewing Co. P.O. box 141156 Cincinnati Oh. 45250 the bottle is brown with a green label. You can clearly make out the PRR k-4 on the label...I don't regularly drink beer, but bought a bottle anyway if nothing else,just for the label...anyone know if its any good? Hmmmm would this make this a Lines West K-4....LOL Let me know if anyone else has seen this.... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: K-4 Beer Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:17:16 -0500 Content-Length: 1697 Brings up an interesting topic........... What items (in terms of NON-PRR owned) has the PRR been immortalized in advertising. Not as reproduction items either. I mean in terms of someone elses products. ???? The one that Hank has found, I've never seen, but sounds really neat ! J. Zappa ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: K-4 Beer > Date: Saturday, March 21, 1998 7:58 PM > > > Hi folks... > > while on a trip to a local store last night i found a beer bottle that > had a picture of a pre-war(high headlight-bar pilot) K-4 on it... > this was in a local "Farm Fresh" here in Va. > the name of the beer is Tasmanian Pale Ale...brewed by the Devil Mountain > Brewing Co. P.O. box 141156 Cincinnati Oh. 45250 > > the bottle is brown with a green label. You can clearly make out the PRR > k-4 on the label...I don't regularly drink beer, but bought a bottle > anyway if nothing else,just for the label...anyone know if its any good? > Hmmmm would this make this a Lines West K-4....LOL > Let me know if anyone else has seen this.... > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:21:30 -0500 Subject: Re: K-4 Beer From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1475 Hank: Thanks for the update. Since I've been following the recent "paint" wars....tell me please: Was the beer's color "tuscan red" or DGLE (as would be prototypical for a K-4 of that era...but hopefully not for the beer that resided insides its passenger cars). And, by the way...how'd it taste?? Sounds like an excellent way to catch up on PRR history. But...don't think the wife would agree! Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Financially Depleted Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:58:24 -0500 (EST) bubbles@visi.net writes: > > Hi folks... > > while on a trip to a local store last night i found a beer bottle >that > had a picture of a pre-war(high headlight-bar pilot) K-4 on it... > > k-4 on the label...I don't regularly drink beer, but bought a bottle > anyway if nothing else,just for the label...anyone know if its any >good? > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:06:34 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Nose Doors Content-Length: 684 Kent Loudon wrote: > > Don't these units have air conditioned cabs, which negates the "open-door" > practise ? > New stuff, probably yes.. Most of the Amtrak F-40's have a/c, and it usually works. Running GP-7's for the Cape Cod & Hyannis RR in the hot Summer of 1988, some engineers were only happy running short (front) end front. I always was happy with the shady side, no matter which end of the engine was to the front of the train. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:29:36 +0000 Subject: Antennas for PRR E7 and E8 units Content-Length: 909 Hello, I'm in the process of adding antennas to my Proto 2000 E7 and E8 units. While I have reviewed the PRR-Talk archive and April 1998 Model Railroader, I still have questions regarding the painting of the antennas for these units. Question: were the antennas always painted the same color as the particular E unit in question (ie, tuscan antennas if the E unit was tuscan, dark green if a brunswick E unit)? Or, is it possible the antennas (and the supports for the antennas) were painted black? I would appreciate any help in answering these questions. Thank you in advance for any response that you may have. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 01:59:43 EST Subject: K-4 Beer? Content-Length: 269 Geeeze! Does it taste like valve oil or coal smoke? Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:41:37 EST Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Content-Length: 590 In a message dated 98-03-20 17:43:25 EST, srsejda@jaguarsystems.com writes: << Question: Were the PRR Alco PA/PB units delivered with or without dynamic brakes? >> All PRR PA.PB were without dynamics. THere is a version of the P2k PA without the dynamics. I have seen the ERIE in such configuration. THe PRR is planned for June release without dynamics. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:55:50 EST Subject: Mystery PRR Gondola Content-Length: 1035 The book _The Model Craftsman Model Railroad Plan Package Book No. 1_ has a drawing of a gondola car which it says is a PRR prototype. It's a steel car, and it looks similar to a GS or G22B. The ends have two horizontal ribs. The brake staff is vertical. It has a fishbelly underframe. However it only has 11 side ribs, not 10 like the GS or 12 like the G22B. The dimensions on this 1943 plan are given in fractional inches for an O scale car, not prototype feet. It shows the car to be 10 5/8 inches (prototype 42 feet 6 inches) from end beam to end beam. The top chord is 2 inches (prototype 8 feet) above the railhead. Does anyone know what this is? Was there a class between the GS and the G21? Or is this just the result of less than careful observation on the part of the draftsman? John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:17:15 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Antennas for PRR E7 and E8 units Content-Length: 2471 Greetings to Greg and the group, Even with the many color photos in the many PRR color photo books that have been produced, it is difficult to tell. On page 63 of Yanosey's _Pennsy Diesel Years 1_, the E8 photo shows at least the brackets painted Tunscan Red but it's difficult to tell for sure whether the antenna 'wire' is. In any event it is heavily weathered in the area of the fans and steam generator exhaust. Page 38 of Yanosey's _Pennsy Diesel years 2_ show a freshely painted E8 and the train phone antenna and brackets looked to be painted in Tunscan Red. However on page 113 the E8 shown seems to have black trainphnoe equipment or at least weathered to the point of looking black. The April 1998 issue of _Model Railroader_ has an article by Charlie Hopkins that deals with adding Pennsy details to an N scale E8. He has painted his trainphone antenna and brackets Tunscan Red. Since, according to Hopkins, all E8s were repainted by 1954, my guess would be that those with trainphone equipment installed by then would have had their antennas painted Tunscan Red during the repainting. Since the prototype photos show a heavy dose of weathering to the tops of E8s, you may be able to fudge a bit on their color. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 10:29 PM 3/21/98 +0000, Greg Leary wrote: >Hello, > > I'm in the process of adding antennas to my Proto 2000 E7 and E8 >units. While I have reviewed the PRR-Talk archive and April 1998 >Model Railroader, I still have questions regarding the painting of >the antennas for these units. Question: were the antennas >always painted the same color as the particular E unit in question >(ie, tuscan antennas if the E unit was tuscan, dark green if a >brunswick E unit)? Or, is it possible the antennas (and the supports >for the antennas) were painted black? I would appreciate any help in >answering these questions. Thank you in advance for any response >that you may have. >Sincerely, > >Greg Leary (electronically signed) > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:36:27 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: And "Curve Beer" was Re: K-4 Beer? Content-Length: 1085 Greetings to the group, As many of you may know, there was a beer called "Curve Premium Beer" made by the Altoona Brewing Company. You can partially see the Altoona Brewing Company building in a photo on page 18 of the Autumn 1992 _Keystone_. The beer's lable had a lithograph of the curve as it. The lable itself can be seen on page 99 of Sweetland's _Pennsy diesel Years 1_. Here are descriptions from some folks I know who drank this stuff. "Yes, it was premium beer alright. You paid a premium for drinking it." "It was cheap and you got what you paid for." "It's the beer that put the curve in Horseshoe Curve!" "You know what I'm like today. I use to drink this stuff a lot when I was in college, 'nuff said." Since I'm not a beer drinker, I can't figure out by the descriptions provided if was any good or not. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:16:31 EST Subject: Locomotive Tonnage Ratings ? Content-Length: 392 Where can one find the tonnage ratings (size of trains pulled) of E, H, L, and K series steam locomotives? Particularly interested in 1910 through 1920. Harold Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:48:09 EST Subject: Division Posts Content-Length: 478 Does anyone have a photograph or drawing or know of a source for PRR Division Posts. Particularly interested in Middle Division but any will do. Middle Division Posts located 8.8 miles and 131.8 from Harrisburg according to 1923 CT1000E. Harold Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: Division Posts Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:20:49 -0500 Content-Length: 1300 Harold and all: Harold--I'll send you a jpeg of the DP at Belvidere for PRR/LHR privately so as not to clog the group. Jerry and all: Wouldn't a division post page be neat on Jerry's site. I have precious few but I am sure collectively the group could supply Jerry with many of them. Jerry, set a standard on size and format and maybe we can make this a short term collective effort! Dick Makse Say, every -----Original Message----- From: Hal6963 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, March 22, 1998 3:05 PM Subject: Division Posts >Does anyone have a photograph or drawing or know of a source for PRR Division >Posts. Particularly interested in Middle Division but any will do. Middle >Division Posts located 8.8 miles and 131.8 from Harrisburg according to 1923 >CT1000E. > >Harold >Gainesville, FL > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:45:45 EST Subject: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 487 Why is Horseshoe and Gallitzin in the Pittsburg Division rather than the Middle Division? It would seem that with all the helper service working out of Altoona that it should be in the Middle Division. Perhaps someone can shed some light on this. Harold Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:45:12 EST Subject: PRR Items Content-Length: 464 Does anyone have any PRR items available for sale ? I am interested in builders plates, station signs, posters, china and silver, locks, lanterns, 1945 or earlier paper, baggage and tool checks, matches, menus, etc. I also have PRR items available. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:32:02 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: K-4 Beer Content-Length: 605 Hi folks... the pic that rob has at his site is the same as whats on my bottle... same colors too. I wonder what its pulling...but you can see that it has a power reverse and a larger tender. Now i haven't tried it yet,but will do soon...remember i don't drink much. looks good anyway....til later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:24:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 1137 Hal6963 wrote: > Why is Horseshoe and Gallitzin in the Pittsburg Division rather than > the Middle Division? Your other message kind of answers this :-) > Middle Division Posts located 8.8 miles and 131.8 from Harrisburg > according to 1923 CT1000E. Altoona is at MP 236.1, diatance from Broad Street Station in Philadelphia. Harrisburg is at MP 104.6, also from BSS. 104.1 + 131.8 = 235.9, or just east of the MP location for Altoona. The Middle Division stopped short of the Mountain. Likewise, 104.1 + 8.8 = 112.9; Banks is MP 113.2, and was the eastern limits of the Middle Division. I'm also guessing that the entire railroad has shifted westward two-tenths of a mile since 1923, or Conrail's and Amtrak's engineers -- not the locomotive ones -- can't measure distances? (I'm using CR/Amtrak timetables, since I'm too lazy to go downstairs to dig the PRR ones out of the box...) Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR flyovers Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:01:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 2389 Mark D Bej wrote: > where's the highest concentration of PRR flyovers/duckunders? North Joizee, > of course. Just posted the map of UNION interlocking, which has 2 duckunders > in close proximity. I dunno... take Zoo Interlocking: there's the NY-Pittsburgh Subway, the 36th Street tunnel, No. 4 track right in front of the tower (goes under the Berry tracks, then through 173 switch normal to the River line under No. 2 track of the 36th St. Tunnel), plus the Belmont connection that comes out from underneath the Berry tracks to make the climb eventualli to the High Line... and the Gray's Ferry Branch, which went from Zoo, beneath the 30th Street upper level approaches -- and the High Line itself that went *over* all else... Close by, we could count Arsenal, where High Line met 30th Street upper and lower level approaches (and the High Line climbs up and over both); No. 4 track at 52nd Street -- plus the Schuylkill Branch coming in at Valley. Further west on the Harrisburg Main Line, there's the duckunder at Paoli, so eastward MU trains didn't need to cross over all four main tracks coming out of the MU yard/shops. Do we want to consider the Trenton Cutoff and how it swings into the Main Line at both Dale/Glen and Thorn? Parkesburg, where No. 1 track goes over the A&S branch... Middletown (well, MP97 between there and Highspire) where the freight track swings under the passenger tracks... and let's not forget the west end of Enola. One other location in Pennsylvania: Morrisville, where the westward main tracks duck under the Trenton Cutoff. Delaware only has one jumpover that I can think of: No. 1 track north of Bell, over the freight tracks leading to the Shellpot Branch. NJ, in addition to Union, has No. 1 track at Lane going up and over the freight tracks from Waverly; we can add to the count if we consider the PATH tracks at Newark (since the H&M was controlled by the Pennsy for quite some time)... er, lessee, the East River tubes is New York... and I think I'm forgetting something here... All in all, the PRR engineered their physical plant in ways that no other road could match... Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Horseshoe Curve (fwd) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 0:36:13 EST Content-Length: 1285 > Why is Horseshoe and Gallitzin in the Pittsburg Division rather than the > Middle Division? It would seem that with all the helper service working out of > Altoona that it should be in the Middle Division. Perhaps someone can shed > some light on this. This is fairly easily answred and goes back all the way to J. Edgar Thompson. The Middle Division was relatively flat all the way - only quite minimal exceptions to this. Thus a train could be handled by fewer locos from Har. to Alto. But from Alto. to Pgh., one had not only the Alleghenies, but the washboard west of the Laurel Ridge. This required a different mode of operating. The traditional division post was always SLOPE interlocking, just "west" (southwest, geographically) of ALTO tower in Altoona, if not in the city limits, then just outside them. So going west, the yard really ended the division, and the next started just as soon as your train got new power front *and* back. Read Thompson's stuff on my site: http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/engr_rept.html -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:08:53 EST Subject: Interactive Model Railroad Content-Length: 365 How many have seen this site? Interactive Model Railroad http://rr-vs.informatik.uni-ulm.de/rr/ ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:06:12 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve (fwd) Content-Length: 374 Mark D Bej wrote: > This is fairly easily answred and goes back all the way to J. Edgar Thompson. > Just a reminder, it was Thomson, not Thompson. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 06:30:06 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 877 On 3/22/98 10:41 AM, SUVCW ORR (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: ><< Question: Were the PRR Alco PA/PB units delivered with or without dynamic > brakes? > >> >All PRR PA.PB were without dynamics. THere is a version of the P2k PA >without >the dynamics. I have seen the ERIE in such configuration. THe PRR is >planned >for June release without dynamics. Are you saying, then, that the May release of PA's from P2K will be non-prototypical? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Division Posts Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 06:33:14 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 965 On 3/22/98 4:20 PM, Richard F. Makse (maxrail@att.net) wrote: >Harold--I'll send you a jpeg of the DP at Belvidere for PRR/LHR privately so >as not to clog the group. > >Jerry and all: > >Wouldn't a division post page be neat on Jerry's site. I have precious few >but I am sure collectively the group could supply Jerry with many of them. >Jerry, set a standard on size and format and maybe we can make this a short >term collective effort! Are we talking of towers here? I'll post anything if someone compiles the info. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: And "Curve Beer" was Re: K-4 Beer? Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:02:07 -0500 Content-Length: 1723 Hi Drew, I have an empty can of Horseshoe Curve Beer on my mantle, and I rate it as bad as Old Frothingslosh from Pittsburgh Brewery.........really bad !.......BUT the can is nice ! Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Drew R. McGhee > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: And "Curve Beer" was Re: K-4 Beer? > Date: Sunday, March 22, 1998 10:36 AM > > Greetings to the group, > > As many of you may know, there was a beer called "Curve Premium Beer" made > by the Altoona Brewing Company. You can partially see the Altoona Brewing > Company building in a photo on page 18 of the Autumn 1992 _Keystone_. The > beer's lable had a lithograph of the curve as it. The lable itself can be > seen on page 99 of Sweetland's _Pennsy diesel Years 1_. Here are > descriptions from some folks I know who drank this stuff. > > "Yes, it was premium beer alright. You paid a premium for drinking it." > > "It was cheap and you got what you paid for." > > "It's the beer that put the curve in Horseshoe Curve!" > > "You know what I'm like today. I use to drink this stuff a lot when I was > in college, 'nuff said." > > Since I'm not a beer drinker, I can't figure out by the descriptions > provided if was any good or not. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:48:56 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Division Posts Content-Length: 1100 Jerry wrote: > > Are we talking of towers here? > > I'll post anything if someone compiles the info. > Jerry, Division posts were very similar to mile posts, but with division names - I have seen a picture in one of the later PRR books, maybe Ball or Yanosey, but would have to look around to find it again. Probably some of the other posters have pics available already. As an aside to that, did the PRR use "A" posts? The New Haven had posts like whistle posts, but with the letter "A" instead of "W," indicating that cars moved past that point had to have the air operative. An example is one that remained on Cape Cod, in Sandwich, about 4 miles from the Canal lift bridge. The air requirement referred to drafts of cars being moved, which might otherwise be done without air, in a switching move, not to the occasional defective air car. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:27:47 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: CAD Question Content-Length: 838 Gentlepersons: (Ya never know) Does anyone out there have any opinions/ comments on the best model RR cad software about? I've been looking at 3rd Planit (advertised in RMC) as they say they can handle multiple tracks easily . My recently demolished last layout was done with "Design you own Model Railroad" and it has some real obvious shortcomeings. I remember reading somewhere that someone has done a rateing of various RR CAD programs. I checked out the one in the Weberville and Hypertext RR but no joy on 3rd Planit. Nothing in our archives either. Any info would be appriciated. Regards Dick Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:53:01 EST Subject: P2K PA/PB Content-Length: 358 I might have missed it on the list, but is this spring issue of the above in DGLE or Tuscan Red? Anyone have the part numbers yet? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 7:56:29 -0600 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: And "Curve Beer" was Re: K-4 Beer? -Reply Content-Length: 556 Date: 03/23/1998 01:55 pm (Monday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com"), INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: And "Curve Beer" was Re: K-4 Beer? -Reply Were these "priemum" beers brewed with cold mountain spring water collected in Pennsy track pans? Inquiring minds want to know. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve (fwd) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:38:10 EST Content-Length: 497 > > This is fairly easily answred and goes back all the way to J. Edgar > > Thompson. > Just a reminder, it was Thomson, not Thompson. Drat! I confuse myself all the time on this, and this is the one time I did not look it up to be sure. To the list: mea culpa. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:44:25 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 994 Greetings to Harold and the group, SLOPE here in Altoona is the division post between the Middle and Pittsburg division. In the diesel era, the helpers were (and still are) based at Galitzen. There used to be a turntable just east of SLOPE to turn the steam helpers once they returned to Altoona. I'm not sure where the steam helpers were based though. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 05:45 PM 3/22/98 EST, Hal6963 wrote: >Why is Horseshoe and Gallitzin in the Pittsburg Division rather than the >Middle Division? It would seem that with all the helper service working out of >Altoona that it should be in the Middle Division. Perhaps someone can shed >some light on this. > >Harold >Gainesville, FL Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA http://www.personal.psu.edu/drm6 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2K PA/PB Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 10:56:56 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 693 On 3/23/98 9:53 AM, Bobspf (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >I might have missed it on the list, but is this spring issue of the above in >DGLE or Tuscan Red? Anyone have the part numbers yet? P2K PA1s for release in May are DGLE five-stripe. There will be two A units and two B units available. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: K-4 Beer Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 11:09:15 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1164 A friend of mine bought me a six pack of their summer ale a while ago (just because of the K4). It was pretty good stuff. it had a yellow label. (The cinders were a bit crunchy though :) Their label says that they started the brewery in an old train station, hence the engine. Of course the station was no where near Pennsylvania so i'm not sure why it's a K4! (Not that I'm complaining!) I scanned the 6 pack holder after I finished drinking the beer but never made a link to it. if you want to check it out it's at http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/images/Beer.jpg Rob > >> Hi folks... >> >> while on a trip to a local store last night i found a beer bottle that >> had a picture of a pre-war(high headlight-bar pilot) K-4 on it... >> this was in a local "Farm Fresh" here in Va. >> the name of the beer is Tasmanian Pale Ale...brewed by the Devil Mountain >> Brewing Co. P.O. box 141156 Cincinnati Oh. 45250 >> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 11:10:38 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 679 The upcoming run of undecs should also be without dynamics... Rob --------------- In a message dated 98-03-20 17:43:25 EST, srsejda@jaguarsystems.com writes: << Question: Were the PRR Alco PA/PB units delivered with or without dynamic brakes? >> All PRR PA.PB were without dynamics. THere is a version of the P2k PA without the dynamics. I have seen the ERIE in such configuration. THe PRR is planned for June release without dynamics. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:25:53 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Content-Length: 1087 On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Jerry wrote: > On 3/22/98 10:41 AM, SUVCW ORR (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: > > ><< Question: Were the PRR Alco PA/PB units delivered with or without dynamic > > brakes? > > >> > >All PRR PA.PB were without dynamics. THere is a version of the P2k PA > >without > >the dynamics. I have seen the ERIE in such configuration. THe PRR is > >planned > >for June release without dynamics. > > Are you saying, then, that the May release of PA's from P2K will be > non-prototypical? Explain further? He said the real Pennsy units did not have dynamic brakes, and nor would the units Life Like released in Pennsy paint (though I can't believe they're doing DGLE PA/PB's before Tuscan!) Presumably they'll be doing the five stripe scheme, but the PAs (at least those converted to AFP20) probably run longer in DGLE single stripe! -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:25:50 -0600 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve -Reply Content-Length: 752 Date: 03/23/1998 04:24 pm (Monday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve -Reply I thought they were (and are) based at Cresson. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 03/23/98 09:44am wrote>>> >Greetings to Harold and the group, > >SLOPE here in Altoona is the division post between the >Middle and Pittsburg division. In the diesel era, the helpers >were (and still are) based at Galitzen. > > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 13:21:19 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1705 On 3/23/98 12:25 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG) wrote: >> On 3/22/98 10:41 AM, SUVCW ORR (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >> >> ><< Question: Were the PRR Alco PA/PB units delivered with or without dynamic >> > brakes? >> > >> >> >All PRR PA.PB were without dynamics. THere is a version of the P2k PA >> >without >> >the dynamics. I have seen the ERIE in such configuration. THe PRR is >> >planned >> >for June release without dynamics. >> >> Are you saying, then, that the May release of PA's from P2K will be >> non-prototypical? > >Explain further? He said the real Pennsy units did not have dynamic >brakes, and nor would the units Life Like released in Pennsy paint (though >I can't believe they're doing DGLE PA/PB's before Tuscan!) Presumably >they'll be doing the five stripe scheme, but the PAs (at least those >converted to AFP20) probably run longer in DGLE single stripe! I think the confusion lies in the fact that we are talking about the same P2K release and didn't know it. I think we are both speaking of the DGLE five stripe release. Rich mentioned a "June" release, but I have always seen "May". I'm sure we are speaking of the same release, and it sounds like they WILL NOT have dynamic brakes (not that I know enough to tell anyway!) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 13:24:50 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1948 As far as I know there's only one announced run of PRR PA's. Jerry says it'll be in May and Rich says June. Either way they're both talking about the same thing. 5 stripe DGLE units without dynamics. I'm not sure if P2K will do Tuscan units since the changing of the numberboards from the factory supplied ones (the ones P2K is doing) to the PRR style happened when they were repainted into tuscan. This means that any factory painted tuscan units will have the wrong numberboars since the PRR's 45 degree numberboards aren't the same style as the one P2K is doing! (My guess is that they'll do them because they'll sell anyway. We'll see if they consider this too big a detail for them to ignore.) The only way to do a correct tuscan PRR PA is to sand off the numberboards and replace them with Cal Scale's part (or equivalent) Rob On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Jerry wrote: > On 3/22/98 10:41 AM, SUVCW ORR (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: > > ><< Question: Were the PRR Alco PA/PB units delivered with or without dynamic > > brakes? > > >> > >All PRR PA.PB were without dynamics. THere is a version of the P2k PA > >without > >the dynamics. I have seen the ERIE in such configuration. THe PRR is > >planned > >for June release without dynamics. > > Are you saying, then, that the May release of PA's from P2K will be > non-prototypical? Explain further? He said the real Pennsy units did not have dynamic brakes, and nor would the units Life Like released in Pennsy paint (though I can't believe they're doing DGLE PA/PB's before Tuscan!) Presumably they'll be doing the five stripe scheme, but the PAs (at least those converted to AFP20) probably run longer in DGLE single stripe! -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:40:40 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve -Reply Content-Length: 965 Remember up there on the hill west of the tunnels, there was a connecting track UN to AR, plus a couple of sidings there, and they had fuel tanks and other service facilities for helpers. You can still see some of the remains and a single track is still in. Were these facilities installed when diesels came in? How long did they last, e.g., when was refueling moved from there to Cresson? Mike >I thought they were (and are) based at Cresson. > >Bill Laird >Houston, Texas > >>>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 03/23/98 09:44am wrote>>> >>Greetings to Harold and the group, >> >>SLOPE here in Altoona is the division post between the >>Middle and Pittsburg division. In the diesel era, the helpers >>were (and still are) based at Galitzen. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve -Reply Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 14:55:33 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1638 On 3/23/98 2:40 PM, Michael Bezilla (mxb13@psu.edu) wrote: >Remember up there on the hill west of the tunnels, there was a connecting >track UN to AR, plus a couple of sidings there, and they had fuel tanks and >other service facilities for helpers. You can still see some of the remains >and a single track is still in. Were these facilities installed when >diesels came in? How long did they last, e.g., when was refueling moved >from there to Cresson? Just a blind shot in the dark... The steam facilities were at Cresson very early. The "Triumph I" book has many photos and diagrams of this facility. Now, of course, it's all diesel. There have been many photos over the years showing some level of diesel service along the return track at Gallitzin. Perhaps this was the diesel service area until the steam facilities at Cresson were removed? The current shop sits approximately where the old turntable was, so both couldn't have been there concurrently. The track from the Cresson Secondary which curves eastward onto Track #4 has diesel fueling towers. It used to be a coaling station. I contend that the diesel facilities were probably moved to Cresson AFTER the steam stuff was all removed. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:49:36 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve -Reply Content-Length: 979 Greetings to Bill and the group, Bill you and I are both correct. When diesels were first introduced, they were based out of the loop or balloon track in Galitzen. Later (don't know the year) the helper base was moved to Cresson where it remains today. Thanks for reminding me that they are now at Cresson. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA > >I thought they were (and are) based at Cresson. > >Bill Laird >Houston, Texas > >>>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 03/23/98 09:44am wrote>>> >>Greetings to Harold and the group, >> >>SLOPE here in Altoona is the division post between the >>Middle and Pittsburg division. In the diesel era, the helpers >>were (and still are) based at Galitzen. >> > >> >>Drew R. McGhee >>Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:15:19 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: BP20's,Brunswick Green and the list Content-Length: 1411 Greetings, OK folks!, we will have no more talk of BP20's or anything that was painted Brunswick Green. If you wish to know anything go directly to the archives, do not pass go and above all, don't burden the list with a question that has been asked before. Failure to follow these rules will result in the professor sending you to the blackboard to write 100 times " I will not ask any question which has been asked before, even though I just joined the list". All future authors beware, never mention Brunswick Green or your books could be banned in Pennsylvania and burned if they fail to comply. Is there anyway this could be posted in the archives directly I would do so!!!!! Come on, lighten up, the idea behind this list is the exchange of information and have patience with those who don't know everything about the beloved PRR. Some new information just might be discovered during one on these duscussions. If everyone on the list knew all there was to know about the PRR why would we need such a PRR-Talk group?? Well now I've gotten that out of my system, maybe someone could answer the following question. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:37:22 EST Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Content-Length: 518 In a message dated 98-03-23 06:32:50 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Are you saying, then, that the May release of PA's from P2K will be non-prototypical? >> The last date I saw for the PRR PA's was June. That was on a dealers flyer last Saturday. I know nothing about a May release. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:37:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: BP20's,Brunswick Green and the list Content-Length: 1073 > All > future authors beware, never mention Brunswick Green or your books could be > banned in Pennsylvania and burned if they fail to comply. The Carleton "Pennsy Diesel Review" not only calls it Brunswick green (which I really don't care about. And damnit, yes I am a "Carnegie Tech" student too) but even worse says that not only was RS-3 8445 a hammerhead but so were 8443 and 8444. (Page 20, right column) I have no evidence handy to disprove this but I'd bet on them being wrong:-) I don't care though, since the picture at the top of page 118 shows a later RT-624 with older Commonwealth trucks, justifying my Stewart AS-616 bash on the AS-616 Commonwealth trucks instead of trimounts. I'm waiting for when it's done someone to say "those trucks don't belong on that" so I can show them the picture, and ask what they're smoking. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:00:58 EST Subject: Re: PA/PB Dynamic Brakes Question Content-Length: 797 In a message dated 98-03-23 12:36:11 EST, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << Explain further? He said the real Pennsy units did not have dynamic brakes, and nor would the units Life Like released in Pennsy paint (though I can't believe they're doing DGLE PA/PB's before Tuscan!) Presumably they'll be doing the five stripe scheme, but the PAs (at least those converted to AFP20) probably run longer in DGLE single stripe! >> Actually there were only 2 AFP20's ever painted in the DGLE single stripe. Check the photos. They aere the same two units 5758 and 5757 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:21:20 EST Subject: Re: BP20's,Brunswick Green and the list Content-Length: 804 In a message dated 98-03-23 18:11:33 EST, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << The Carleton "Pennsy Diesel Review" not only calls it Brunswick green (which I really don't care about. And damnit, yes I am a "Carnegie Tech" student too) but even worse says that not only was RS-3 8445 a hammerhead but so were 8443 and 8444. (Page 20, right column) I have no evidence handy to disprove this but I'd bet on them being wrong:-) >> 8443 and 8444 are class AS16ms with steam generatoring equipment. However only 8445 also had dynamic brakes requiring the extra hood height. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:25:09 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: PRR flyovers Content-Length: 921 Ken Reinert wrote: > Mark D Bej wrote: > > where's the highest concentration of PRR flyovers/duckunders? North Joizee, > > of course. Just posted the map of UNION interlocking, which has 2 duckunders > > in close proximity. > > >All in all, the PRR engineered their physical plant in ways that no > >other road could match... > > I don't know if this counts but the Port Branch swings under the Atglen and > Susquehanna at CP Point (Turkey Point). Its just a memory now :(. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:55:55 -0500 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: Division Posts Content-Length: 1097 Stephen Bartlett wrote: As an aside to that, did the PRR use "A" posts? The New Haven had > posts like whistle posts, but with the letter "A" instead of "W," > indicating that cars moved past that point had to have the air > operative. An example is one that remained on Cape Cod, in Sandwich, > about 4 miles from the Canal lift bridge. The air requirement referred > to drafts of cars being moved, which might otherwise be done without > air, in a switching move, not to the occasional defective air car. > > Steve Bartlett If you want to find out what happens when you grabhold of too many cars without air try this: > http://www.rrhistorical-2.com/cwrr/Parlor/runaway/index.html A CN engineer was switching a mine, grabbed 30 cars when he thought he had 20. You can listen to a 20 min tape of the runaway! He did survive. Have fun, John W Rosenbauer ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:51:09 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: PRR Flyovers Content-Length: 792 On 22 March, Ken Reinert wrote: >> NJ, in addition to Union, has No. 1 track at Lane going up and over the freight tracks from Waverly; we can add to the count if we consider the PATH tracks at Newark (since the H&M was controlled by the Pennsy for quite some time)... er, lessee, the East River tubes is New York... and I think I'm forgetting something here... << You might want to include the PRSL flyover at Winslow Jct, where the (once) 2-track line to Tuckahoe diverged from the Atlantic City main. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 21:39 23-Mar-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:19:44 EST Subject: Life LikeAP-20's Content-Length: 565 I just spoke with Life Like this afternoon about the AP-20's. They will NOT have dynamic brakes and will be DGLE, commonly accepted as Brunswick Green, with 5 bronze gold stripes and lettering. They will be available with 2 different A-unit numbers and 2 different B-unit numbers. There also will be no more E-7B units available in DGLE-BG. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 06:35:27 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Unasked Question Content-Length: 802 Greetings, After reading my posting my "BP20's, Brunswick Green and the list", I realized I left off the question! Well to make amends, here it is. Can someone answer the question of why the "Bobber" type cabooses used in the Pittsburgh region and the N6b had such a inward sloping cupola? Was there a clearance problem, structural reason or just styling. The other wooden cabooses seem to have vertical sides on their cupolas. Oh-Oh, I'm in deep dodo again, correct your copies to read "cabin cars" instead of cabooses. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:19:04 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: BP20's,Brunswick Green and the list Content-Length: 2652 At 05:37 PM 3/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >The Carleton "Pennsy Diesel Review" not only calls it Brunswick green (which I >really don't care about. And damnit, yes I am a "Carnegie Tech" student too) >but even worse says that not only was RS-3 8445 a hammerhead but so were 8443 >and 8444. (Page 20, right column) I have no evidence handy to disprove this but >I'd bet on them being wrong:-) #8443,8444 & 8445 were PRR class AS16ms. #8443 & 8444 were equipped with steam generators and assigned to the Chesapeake Region. These units had standard low noses. #8445 was equipped with both steam generator and dynamic brakes which necessitated a high nose. This unit was assigned to the Northern Region and was the only unit on the PRR roster which had a high nose. There are excellent pictures of all 3 units on pgs 18 & 19 of "PRR diesel locomotive pictorial" by John D Hahn. In fact the middle pic pg 19 shows the 8445 in its as delivered scheme, green with Pennsylvania spelled oput on long hood. Bottom pic shows 8445 "wearing a fresh coat of Brunswick green..." with keystone on long & high hood and large block number on cab. There is another pic on pg 35 which shows #8445 renumbered to 5569 "...in preparation for the PC merger..." > >I don't care though, since the picture at the top of page 118 shows a later >RT-624 with older Commonwealth trucks, justifying my Stewart AS-616 bash on the >AS-616 Commonwealth trucks instead of trimounts. I'm waiting for when it's done >someone to say "those trucks don't belong on that" so I can show them the >picture, and ask what they're smoking. ;-) The first group of AS616's (#8114, 8966-8974) were delivered in 1951 with the rigid frame even axle spaced commonwealth trucks. #8114,8966-8969 and 8972-8974 were PRR class BS-16m. # 8970 & 8971 were equipped with steam generators, PRR class BS-16ms. The second and final group were # 8111 & 8112, PRR class BS-16m, delivered with uneven spaced GSC outside equalized trucks. There is a pic of #8971 on pg of Hahn's book which is equipped with uneven spaced rigid frame commonwealth trucks. Evenly spaced axles usually indicates an A-1-A or 2 axles only powered. Uneven spacing on these trucks usually indicates a C or all axles are powered. Was #8971 retrucked to have all axles powered? Did # 8111 & 8112 have all axles powered?? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 24 Mar 98 09:18:06 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Curve beer Content-Length: 1345 or, "It's the water" I assume Curve beer was brewed in Altoona somewhere, and so used city water in the brewing process. Drew McGee or Dan Cupper, please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyone who has explored the area surrounding Horse Shoe Curve doubtlessly has noticed the lovely brownish-rust color of the stream beds of Kittaning and Burgoon Runs, flowing into the Altoona Water Supply resevoirs nestled within the confines of The Curve. This coloration is due to staining from the acids in the runoff from the abandoned coal mines in the area. That, combined with rain leeching through decades of coal cinders from what was probably the most intense steam locomotive operation on earth passing on three sides of those resevoirs, must have combined to make the water in Curve beer, ah, interesting in its chemical composition. It doubtlessly added its overall bouquet and flavor, probably not to the better. Think of it this way: there was a little bit of the Pennsy in every can. Just as the Lackawanna was the "Road of Anthracite", Curve beer could be considered "The Beer of Bituminous". -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: ListServ Upgrade Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 09:23:40 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 854 Thanks to you, it works for all of us... I have received enough donations to cover the cost of the listserv upgrade. In fact, $35 will be left over in the "Keystone Kitty" for similar projects in the future. Thanks to all who contributed; it is appreciated. A list of contributors is available at http://prr.dsop.com/support.html The new software will be installed this evening. I'll provide info about new commands, etc., in a later post. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: VOTE on List Prefix - Do we want one? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 09:31:51 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1562 PLEASE READ THIS E-MAIL VERY CAREFULLY...DO NOT "REPLY" TO THIS MESSAGE!!! The new listserv software has the ability to modify the SUBJECT line of messages with a prefix, such as changing: GG-1 Sighting at Harrisburg to: [PRR] GG-1 Sighting at Harrisburg with the "[PRR]" being a sample prefix for the "PRR-Talk" list. The benefit is to provide a visual queue to subscribers when perusing their incoming mail box. Of course, more sophisticated users are likely already using "filters" to scan incoming mail for their REPLY TO field and sorting or color-coding them accordingly. For them, the prefix is an unnecessary item. The question to the lists is: Do we want to use a prefix? You can vote by: 1) Create an e-mail message to "listmaster@dsop.com" 2) In the SUBJECT place: a) VOTE YES PREFIX listname b) VOTE NO PREFIX listname be sure to indicate the listname, as three lists are being voted on 3) Optionally, suggest list prefixes in the BODY of your message. These would be voted on later if the vote supports the prefix. The deadline for voting is 4:30 p.m. Thursday, March 26th. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 24 Mar 98 09:39:55 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Altoona helpers Content-Length: 2310 Drew McGee wrote: >SLOPE here in Altoona is the division post between the Middle and Pittsburg >division. In the diesel era, the helpers were (and still are) based at >Galitzen. There used to be a turntable just east of SLOPE to turn the steam >helpers once they returned to Altoona. I'm not sure where the steam helpers >were based though. Drew: I believe Conrail's helpers are based at Cresson, not Gallitzin. I know there was an extensive diesel servicing facility at Gallitzin in the 50's, but all that was left was the turning track and some abandoned fuel tanks, when I was there -- gosh, two decades ago. Gotta get back there! When did PRR/PC/CR close and dismantle the Gallitzin facilities? Has the Keystone or any other publication done any articles about the Gallitizin service area on the loops? I have seen pictures of the turntable you refer to, near SLOPE tower. Was this just for passenger helpers? Seems a bit distant from where I think freight helpers would have tied on, further east in the yards, but stranger things have happened. All helpers may have turned there, simply to relieve congestion at East Altoona. Freights may have pulled up past the station and had helpers attached there, I don't know. If memory serves, pictures I've seen have had helpers attached back in the main yard area. Or, it may have been a combination of the two, depending on how many helpers were available at a given time. Does anyone know how helper engines were handled at Altoona? I believe passenger helpers lurked on tracks just west of the station, but freight helpers must have been harder to follow, given the size of the yard. Were they turned at the big East Altoona roundhouse, or on a table buried somewhere in the middle of the yard, near where westbound trains sat waiting for their turn up the mountain? Seems like I remember seeing a map of the yard, with a lone turntable in the middle of the it somewhere that might have been used for this purpose. I can't remember how old the map was. TIA for any help in this matter. -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Steam Loco Road Numbers Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 12:24:06 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 507 Did any steam locomotives bear these numbers and, if so, what class were they: 613 830 1007 1027 1122 --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: T1 #6111 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 12:27:27 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 749 T1 #6111 was one of the original, fully skirted T1's. (The other was #6110.) Was 6111 ever modified to the latter design, without the portholes and full skirting? In other words, was the 6111 ever modified so as the new Bowser T1 would properly represent her? Kind of a dumb bit of symbolism, but my PRRT&HS membership number is 6111 ! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:39:45 EST Subject: PRR Steam Numbers Content-Length: 703 Jerry, I found this out about your numbers in question: 613 H-9s Juniata s/n 1970 blt 12/09 scr 9/50 830 K-4s Juniata 3273 7/17 4/58 1007 H-8sb Juniata 2421 5/12 12/48 1027 F-3 Baldwin ? 5/01 ? 1122 L-1s Juniata 3401 1/18 10/56 This is from the Final Roster-Steam Locomotives by Allan Sherry Hope this helps you. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:26:03 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: BP20's,Brunswick Green and the list Content-Length: 1163 On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, s.a. mccall wrote: > The first group of AS616's (#8114, 8966-8974) were delivered in 1951 with > the rigid frame even axle spaced commonwealth trucks. #8114,8966-8969 and > 8972-8974 were PRR class BS-16m. # 8970 & 8971 were equipped with steam > generators, PRR class BS-16ms. Look again. > The second and final group were # 8111 & 8112, PRR class BS-16m, > delivered with uneven spaced GSC outside equalized trucks. > There is a pic of #8971 on pg of Hahn's book which is equipped with > uneven spaced rigid frame commonwealth trucks. Evenly spaced axles usually > indicates an A-1-A or 2 axles only powered. Uneven spacing on these trucks > usually indicates a C or all axles are powered. Was #8971 retrucked to > have all axles powered? Did # 8111 & 8112 have all axles powered?? All of the AS-616s had all axles powered. If they had had A-1-A trucks they'd have been AS-416s. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:22:39 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: BP20's,Brunswick Green and the list Content-Length: 1641 At 01:26 PM 3/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, s.a. mccall wrote: > > >> The first group of AS616's (#8114, 8966-8974) were delivered in 1951 with >> the rigid frame even axle spaced commonwealth trucks. #8114,8966-8969 and >> 8972-8974 were PRR class BS-16m. # 8970 & 8971 were equipped with steam >> generators, PRR class BS-16ms. > >Look again. Greetings, I did, you are right, which makes the question self explanatory. Thanks... The rest of the information is correct......... > >> The second and final group were # 8111 & 8112, PRR class BS-16m, >> delivered with uneven spaced GSC outside equalized trucks. >> There is a pic of #8971 on pg of Hahn's book which is equipped with >> uneven spaced rigid frame commonwealth trucks. Evenly spaced axles usually >> indicates an A-1-A or 2 axles only powered. Uneven spacing on these trucks >> usually indicates a C or all axles are powered. Was #8971 retrucked to >> have all axles powered? Did # 8111 & 8112 have all axles powered?? > >All of the AS-616s had all axles powered. If they had had A-1-A trucks >they'd have been AS-416s. > >-D > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:06:38 EST Subject: Re: Steam Loco Road Numbers Content-Length: 356 In a message dated 98-03-24 12:21:23 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: << 613 ??? 830 K4s 1007 ??? 1027 ??? 1122 L1s >> Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:33:22 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve -Reply Content-Length: 1648 Jerry, First, I would be very hesitant of trusting ANYTHING in the Triumph I book! This is quite possibly the worst book (of any subject) ever printed. Its only saving grace is the pictures and track diagrams. It a shame the author didn't even look at the very photos he printed in his book before writing some of the "facts" he put in there. Deeeep breath, I feel much better now. Anyway, I'll dig around to see if I can track down dates. The Cresson steam facilities, I think, were used for the Cresson Division and possibly not for helper service but I'll try to verify this. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 02:55 PM 3/23/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >The steam facilities were at Cresson very early. The "Triumph I" book has >many photos and diagrams of this facility. > >Now, of course, it's all diesel. > >There have been many photos over the years showing some level of diesel >service along the return track at Gallitzin. Perhaps this was the diesel >service area until the steam facilities at Cresson were removed? > >The current shop sits approximately where the old turntable was, so both >couldn't have been there concurrently. The track from the Cresson >Secondary which curves eastward onto Track #4 has diesel fueling towers. >It used to be a coaling station. > >I contend that the diesel facilities were probably moved to Cresson AFTER >the steam stuff was all removed. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: AS16ms steam generators? Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:40:36 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1051 On 24 Mar, "s.a. mccall" wrote: > #8443,8444 & 8445 were PRR class AS16ms. #8443 & 8444 were equipped with > steam generators and assigned to the Chesapeake Region. These units had > standard low noses. [ ... ] Are there any external signs of the steam generator, like there are on E of F units? I'm intending to model one of these in passenger service and I'd like to get it right. > There are excellent pictures of all 3 units on pgs 18 & 19 of "PRR diesel > locomotive pictorial" by John D Hahn. Do these pics show the external detail, if any? Thanks! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:42:41 -0800 From: Craig Bowman Subject: cabin car assignments Content-Length: 442 Question: did the PRR have a standard listing of cabin car assignments? The MP 229 listed motive power assignments, so I was wondering if there was an equivalent document for cabin cars, with regional assignments. Craig ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:16:35 EST Subject: Typed pictures Content-Length: 862 I have seen many typed out pictures of Trains, but this ship I received today is excellent. <| <| _)__)_<|__ ^v^ )_) )___) ) ) )___) )____) )__) \ )____)____) )___) \ \---|___/ |____|____ \ ^^^^^^^^^~~~\ º º º º º º º º /~~^^^^^^^^^ ~^^^^ ~~~~^^~~~~^^~~^^~~~~ ~~^^ ~^^~ ~^~ ~^ ~^~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:25:16 EST Subject: Re: PRR Steam Numbers Content-Length: 528 The Final Roster-Steam Locomotives is a paperback 5"x9" book by Allan Sherry. It covers every locomotive from #1-2499 with builders data and disposition. It was published in 1979 by Allan Sherry and also has some nice photos. I can't remember the address but will post it if I can somehow locate the info. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:40:48 EST Subject: Re: PRR flyovers Content-Length: 634 In a message dated 98-03-22 23:20:51 EST, kreinert@erols.com writes: << er, lessee, the East River tubes is New York... and I think I'm forgetting something here... >> There was (still is!) a place in the East River tubes where Tracks 2 and 3 crossed over one another while both were underground. Not a "flyover" in the purest sense, but it confirms your statement about unequalled engineering. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:40:47 EST Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 948 In a message dated 98-03-22 22:29:36 EST, kreinert@erols.com writes: << I'm also guessing that the entire railroad has shifted westward two-tenths of a mile since 1923, or Conrail's and Amtrak's engineers -- not the locomotive ones -- can't measure distances? It never ceases to amaze me that in the Official Guides, over the PRR years, mileage locations for a given station, or series of stations, vary. And I mean 4 or 5 tenths of a mile, which is more than would result from minor line relocations. I have never attempted this type of comparison with ETT's, but I bet the same situation exists. I would enjoy hearing any comments or information on this issue. Back to the income tax program..... Rich Copeland. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:35:01 EST Subject: Re: Unasked Question/N-6b Cabin Cars Content-Length: 633 Roger and all, Generally speaking the "slanted " cupola was considered a lines East design and the "vertical" sided cupola a lines West design. Interestingly enough the lines East design survived through rebuilding to become "the Pennsylvania Railroad wooden cabin car". Clearances were the main reason. Yes there were both centered and off-set cupolas, the off-set being more numerous. Ed Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:40:25 -0500 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: Steam Loco Road Numbers Content-Length: 785 >Did any steam locomotives bear these numbers and, if so, what class were >they: > >613 >830 >1007 >1027 >1122 According to William Edson in Keystone Steam and Electric the answer is yes they did. The numbers and classes are below. Dates are for the last engine to wear the number. 613 - D4 D7a H8b (blt 12/09 dropped 9/50) 830 - G1 D16a K4s (blt 7/17 Dropped 12/49) 1007 - H1 H6a H8sb (blt 5/12 sold for scrap 12/48) 1027 - D7 F3 (no dates on F3 listed) 1122 - H3 L1s (blt 1/18 sold for scrap 10/56) Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:47:53 EST Subject: Re: Steam Loco Road Numbers/Yes of course! Content-Length: 380 To All, #613-(D), D4, D7a,H8b #830-G1, D16a, K4s #1007-H1, H6a, H8sb #D7, F3 #1122-H3, L1s My source Keystone Steam & Electric by William D. Edson Ed Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: 1930's Timetables Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:26:47 -0500 Content-Length: 869 Hi, everybody! For some time now, I have been unloading some of my excess "stuff" on eBay. Recently, I purchased, sight unseen, a large lot of timetables. A good many of them are PRR from 1930's with these flavors: New York to Philadelphia (Form 12) New York to Pittsburgh (Form 55) South and West (Form 19) If anybody on the list would like one for their personal collections, send me $2.00 for each TT plus a stamped (32 cents) self-addressed envelope. I'll honor choices while supplies last. Most timetables are in good to excellent condition. Thanks. Richard F. Makse 410 Bogert Avenue Ridgewood, NJ 07450-1803 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:05:08 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1599 >In a message dated 98-03-22 22:29:36 EST, kreinert@erols.com writes: > ><< I'm also guessing that the entire railroad has shifted westward > two-tenths of a mile since 1923, or Conrail's and Amtrak's engineers -- > not the locomotive ones -- can't measure distances? ===== Actually what you see here is the result of an obscure physics condition caused by PRR operating practices. As you know, the PRR main line runs east-west. Since the earth also rotates to the east, eastbound trains are moving faster than westbound. This, in turn, causes eastbound trains to weigh slightly less, due to centrifugal forces. This results in the westbound locomotives having to exert more braking effort to stop the greater weight (as effectively applied to the rails). Over the decades, the accumulative effect has shifted the main line slightly westward. BTW: this is also the cause of tectonic plate shift in the earth's crust. All the automobiles rushing madly around today is why - 30 million years from now - North America is going to crash head on into China. I hope this helps. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:12:13 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: CAD Question Content-Length: 1041 I sent this out earlier in the week and as it never appeared in my "IN" box, I assume it ended up in that great "Bit-Bucket" in the sky. I'll try again. > > Gentlepersons: > (Ya never know) > > Does anyone out there have any opinions/ comments on the best model RR > cad software about? I've been looking at 3rd Planit (advertised in RMC) > as they say they can handle multiple tracks easily . My recently > demolished last layout was done with "Design you own Model Railroad" and > it has some real obvious shortcomeings. > I remember reading somewhere that someone has done a rateing of various > RR CAD programs. I checked out the one in the Weberville and Hypertext > RR but no joy on 3rd Planit. Nothing in our archives either. > Any info would be appriciated. > > Regards > Dick Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: LISTSERV HELP FILE -- SAVE Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:27:07 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1817 Please save this file. It includes instructions for the listserv running the "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk", "PRRMO", and "PRR2000" lists. =============================== This message describes the commands you can send to: LetterRip Requests Commands must be placed in the subject of the message. The following commands are accepted: help Returns this message. lists Returns a list of the available mailing lists. info mail_list_name Returns information about the specified list. subscribe mail_list_name Adds your address to the list of subscribers. You can then send messages to the list. If you were subscribed to the digest version of the list, you are removed from the digest subscription list. subscribe digest mail_list_name Adds your address to the list of subscribers. You can then send messages to the list. If you were subscribed to the normal version of the list, you are removed from the normal subscription list. unsubscribe mail_list_name Your address is removed from the list of subscribers or digest subscribers. You will no longer receive messages or digests and will no longer be able to send messages to the list. If you have problems using these commands, you can contact the list server administrator at: Listmaster --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:34:15 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: T-1 6110/61111 models Content-Length: 2590 Jerry, >about T-1 #6111. I was >wondering if it was ever modified to remove the portholed front and >shrouding so as to make the Bowser properly representative of it in later >years. Just realized my PRRT&HS member number is #6111 -- thought I'd >number the T-1 in honor! Wow - we should compile a list of great PRRT&HS numbers - who has 4800 (R-1, then GG-1)? 4935 ("Blackjack")? 6100 (S-1)? etc... The best picture I could find was of 6110, in Don Ball's PRR 1940s and 50's. The photo was taken in 1946, and shows the high skirts, and portholes. Since this looks to be identical to the "new" Altoona built T-1s, I would hazard that 6111 was also so modified. Here are my pros and cons of using the Bowser T-1 for a late version of 6110/6111. Pro: Hey, its available! Pro: Modeling the 1946 version would require pilot surgery, but not new skirts Pro: 6110/6111 MAY have recieved the same revised pilot treatment in the late 40's as the production units Con: The length of the "shark nose" is shorter on production units than on 6110/6111, meaning that the Bowser model would NEVER make an accurate 6110/6111 Con: So far, I can find no evidence that 6110 or 6111 was modified to eliminate the portholes as in the Bowser version. Con: Modeling the 1946 version would require MAJOR pilot surgery - basically, everything below the "sharknose" would have to be cut off and replaced with a scratchbuilt piece. The rounded profiles of this piece would certainly make a challenging project! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: T-1 6110/61111 models Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:16:54 -0500 Content-Length: 3340 Should anyone scratchbuild this set-up before I get to it (which may be awhile) please feel free to let me know, as I would be interested in casting these parts to create a conversion kit !! Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ---------- > From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: T-1 6110/61111 models > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 10:34 AM > > Jerry, > > >about T-1 #6111. I was > >wondering if it was ever modified to remove the portholed front and > >shrouding so as to make the Bowser properly representative of it in later > >years. Just realized my PRRT&HS member number is #6111 -- thought I'd > >number the T-1 in honor! > > Wow - we should compile a list of great PRRT&HS numbers - who has 4800 > (R-1, then GG-1)? 4935 ("Blackjack")? 6100 (S-1)? etc... > > The best picture I could find was of 6110, in Don Ball's PRR 1940s and > 50's. The photo was taken in 1946, and shows the high skirts, and > portholes. Since this looks to be identical to the "new" Altoona built > T-1s, I would hazard that 6111 was also so modified. Here are my pros and > cons of using the Bowser T-1 for a late version of 6110/6111. > > Pro: Hey, its available! > Pro: Modeling the 1946 version would require pilot surgery, but not new skirts > Pro: 6110/6111 MAY have recieved the same revised pilot treatment in the > late 40's as the production units > > Con: The length of the "shark nose" is shorter on production units than on > 6110/6111, meaning that the Bowser model would NEVER make an accurate > 6110/6111 > Con: So far, I can find no evidence that 6110 or 6111 was modified to > eliminate the portholes as in the Bowser version. > Con: Modeling the 1946 version would require MAJOR pilot surgery - > basically, everything below the "sharknose" would have to be cut off and > replaced with a scratchbuilt piece. The rounded profiles of this piece > would certainly make a challenging project! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and > Director, Nucleic Acid Services > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > **************************************************************************** **** > Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:27:16 EST Subject: Re: CAD Question Content-Length: 980 In a message dated 98-03-25 09:13:04 EST, Dick Taylor writes: << Does anyone out there have any opinions/ comments on the best model RR > cad software about? I've been looking at 3rd Planit (advertised in RMC) > as they say they can handle multiple tracks easily . >> I personally use Cadrail (I am on version 5.03 - don't know about version 6. Designed our club layout, including benchwork,w iring, etc. I like it, but I am well up on the learning curve on it. If I were starting over, I wouldevaluate 3dPlanit, Seems good, but I don't have the time to come up on another learning curve. There was a thread on the subject on one of lists I am on. You might try the Layout Design SIG archives at http://www.visi.com/~zoo/LDSig. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Branch Histories Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 12:50:07 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 922 Another call for editors for the "Hobo's Guide to the PRR". Check the "guide" at http://prr.dsop.com/guide/index.html . The goal is to have it contain branch histories of all PRR ancestors. If one of your favorites is missing from the list and you're willing to volunteer to write a history, please contact me. It's easy, as I'll add the HTML (web) code. Anything -- on any branch -- is better than nothing. NOTE: I have received a few updates over the past few weeks. These will all be posted this evening. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:55:49 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: T-1 6110/61111 models Content-Length: 750 Greetings, There is a good pic of #6110 on pg 55 of "Rails to Pittsburgh" by Feibelman which shows all shrouding as well as portjoles removed. Looks just like all the 5500 series, except the very pointed nose. All pics in this series were made 1949. At 09:34 AM 3/25/98 -0600, you wrote: > >>about T-1 #6111. I was >>wondering if it was ever modified to remove the portholed front and >>shrouding so as to make the Bowser properly representative of it in later >>years. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:03:37 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: RE:6111 Content-Length: 538 Greetings, If a copy is available look in Model Railroader Cyclopedia Vol 1-Steam Locomotives on pg 265. Pic in upper right shows the 6111 coming at you, caption says "In time, even 6110 and 6111(shown) had abbreviated skirting and front end built like the others". Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:06:33 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Portjoles Content-Length: 336 Greetings, Portjoles may be my version of Spanish for portholes...... Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR equipment diagrams... Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 14:03:50 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1270 Hi all, The other day George Elwood mailed me a (huge) binder with class diagrams for most classes of PRR equipment. They're the same type of diagrams in Wayner's books, Pennsy Car Plans and Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger & Freight Car Diagrams (Line drawings with major dimensions) but there are many more and include electric & diesel locomotives also. The binder's about 3 inches thick with diagrams for 2-3 classes per page. I'm scanning the whole thing for George to place on the web (I'll have links from my page also...) This will probably take me quite a while as many of the diagrams are white on black photocopies and need a bit of clean up work. If there's any class of equipment that you need a diagram of (for modeling etc..) let me know and I can scan it out of order and mail you a copy... George already scanned and posted the handcars and derrick sections of the book (see http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/other/prr-mofw.html for the one's George scanned) When I get the scans on line I'll let you guys know... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: T-1 6110/61111 models Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 13:41:13 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 910 On 3/25/98 1:55 PM, s.a. mccall (hosam@gc.net) wrote: > There is a good pic of #6110 on pg 55 of "Rails to Pittsburgh" by >Feibelman which shows all shrouding as well as portjoles removed. Looks >just like all the 5500 series, except the very pointed nose. All pics in >this series were made 1949. That's good news, I guess. It substantiates that at least one of the two was modified. The only remaining issue is the pointed nose. Hmmm. Suppose I can "wing it" with the Bowser...modeler's license. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Curve Beer... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 13:48:28 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 517 Hi all, When we were talking about beer taht features the PRR someone mentioned a photo that featured the brewery in the background. I happen to have a PRR photo of an F30D in front of the brewery that Stephen Agostini sent me. It's at http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/photos/PR475462.JPG Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR equipment diagrams... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 14:52:13 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 685 On 3/24/98 3:03 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >The other day George Elwood mailed me a (huge) binder with class diagrams >for most classes... >When I get the scans on line I'll let you guys know... Small world...I've been working on the same damned thing! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:07:20 EST Subject: The "Panhandle Cupola" was Re: Unasked Question/N-6b Cabin Car Content-Length: 2191 In a message dated 98-03-24 22:37:54 EST, Ed Martin writes: << Generally speaking the "slanted " cupola was considered a lines East design and the "vertical" sided cupola a lines West design. Interestingly enough the lines East design survived through rebuilding to become "the Pennsylvania Railroad wooden cabin car". Clearances were the main reason. Yes there were both centered and off-set cupolas, the off-set being more numerous. Ed Martin >> This is almost correct. The N6 class of Cabin Cars was solely a Lines West critter. When the PRR Co. introduced the all-steel eight-wheeled N5 cabin car as its Lines East design in 1913, the now obsolescent all-wood four-wheeled 'bobbers' of the NB, NBa, NC, NE and NEa classes had their wood bodies salvaged and lengthened and placed on new steel underframes with two four-wheel trucks for use by Lines West. The lengthening of the body resulted in the offset cupola. I theorize, and would like to find proof that the centered-cupola N6 models were new construction toward the end of the 1913-1923 bulding program. More than 1,000 were built but I have yet to see exact numbers.. More than 800 were still in service in 1957. As built, the large N6a cupola was produced in far greater numbers. The slant-sided N6b cupola should be called a "Panhandle" cupola. It was introduced in the late 1880s with the NBa class. The design was needed to cope with the tight clearances in the 10 tunnels on the PRR's Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis RR "Panhandle Route" mainline between Pittsburgh and Newark, Ohio. With consolidation of PRR operations in 1923, members of the N6 classs began migrating system wide. All but one N6a were rebuilt as N6bs as part of the clearance improvement project during the 1930s. My Cabin Car Page is almost complete but since MS explorer was my default browser, it doesn't work right with Netscape. I haven't gotten around to debugging it. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:26:33 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: More T-1 info Content-Length: 1316 Hi All, George Elwood has the clearance tracing for the prototype T-1s on his web site at: http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/other/prr-t1.gif His main page is: http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/other/prr.html He has many locomotive diagrams as well Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:53:25 -0800 From: Sharon Edwards Subject: Re: PRR equipment diagrams... Content-Length: 1419 Rob Schoenberg wrote: > > Hi all, > > The other day George Elwood mailed me a (huge) binder with class diagrams for most classes > of PRR equipment. They're the same type of diagrams in Wayner's books, Pennsy Car Plans and Pennsylvania > Railroad Passenger & Freight Car Diagrams (Line drawings with major dimensions) but there are many more and include electric & diesel > locomotives also. The binder's about 3 inches thick with diagrams for 2-3 classes per page. I'm > scanning the whole thing for George to place on the web (I'll have links from my page also...) > This will probably take me quite a while as many of the diagrams are white on black photocopies and need > a bit of clean up work. If there's any class of equipment that you need a diagram of (for modeling > etc..) let me know and I can scan it out of order and mail you a copy... George already scanned and > posted the handcars and derrick sections of the book > (see http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/other/prr-mofw.html for the one's George scanned) > > When I get the scans on line I'll let you guys know... > > Rob Do these by chance include steam locos, tenders, and truck diagrams? Doug Edwards ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:14:23 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: The "Panhandle Cupola"/N-6b Cabin Car Content-Length: 1749 >West. The lengthening of the body resulted in the offset cupola. I theorize, >and would like to find proof that the centered-cupola N6 models were new >construction toward the end of the 1913-1923 bulding program. Absolutely, with one minor comment - N6b cabin cars were built up into the 1940's!!!!!! It appears that "new" scratchbuilt N6b cars had a centered cupola. BTW, we have often discussed cabin car paint schemes here, but new to me was the statement in the latest Keystone (in the review of the Gloor Craft ND) that MOW cabins in the 40's were painted battleship grey (up until the yellow of 1953). Now, where can I get a list of cabins assigned to MOW for 1944? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:41:06 EST Subject: Re: The "Panhandle Cupola" was Re: Unasked Question/N-6b Cabin Car Content-Length: 647 Bob Johnson has photos of N6a cabins with the sheathing removed. From his photos, it appears the location of the cupola was a result of the method of lengthening the cars. Some had all the "new" space added to one end and some had equal amounts added to each end. Also, the lengthening was the result of an Ohio law which specified a minimum size for cabin cars. I do wish Bob would publish all the material he has. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:02:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 2265 Bob; You sucked me in until the 2nd paragraph. I'm still laughing! Nice piece of writing. Based on your theory about the "upcoming" collision, should the readers immediately dump any stock holdings in the Union Pacific?? Better even...all West Coast readers immediately send all your GG-1's east for safekeeping at my house! Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Financially Depleted Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway >Actually what you see here is the result of an obscure physics >condition >caused by PRR operating practices. > >As you know, the PRR main line runs east-west. Since the earth also >rotates to the east, eastbound trains are moving faster than >westbound. >This, in turn, causes eastbound trains to weigh slightly less, due to >centrifugal forces. > >This results in the westbound locomotives having to exert more braking >effort to stop the greater weight (as effectively applied to the >rails). >Over the decades, the accumulative effect has shifted the main line >slightly westward. > >BTW: this is also the cause of tectonic plate shift in the earth's >crust. >All the automobiles rushing madly around today is why - 30 million >years >from now - North America is going to crash head on into China. > >I hope this helps. > >Bob > > >Robert A. Boyd >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > >========================================================== > >"The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com >The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:58:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: car lettering diagrams Content-Length: 1404 Hi all, Well, the painting season is upon me (this is due to the warm, and for now dry climate, which allow me to paint outdoors!). I am going to finally paint my PRR Jordan Spreader (Overland Models) - does anyone out there have a lettering diagram for Jordan Spreaders? Otherwise, I'll have to go on the few photographs I can find... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Works in Progress Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 10:10:55 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1097 Yesterday's post by Rob Schoenberg brought to light that both of us were working on the same thing...scanning of elevations. Fortunately, he was working on locomotives while I was working on passenger cars. I have added a "works in progress" page which lists major projects underway at "Keystone Crossings". If anyone plans on entering into a large project, you might want to check the page to see if an effort is already underway. My list includes projects that are actually being done by others that will later be served via my site. The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/working.html . Perhaps I should append it with a section to include major projects underway by other sites? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cabin Car Roster Now Online - Need Photos Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 10:17:57 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1553 The searchable Cabin Car Roster is now online. The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html . I am looking for photos of cabins. If you have any and are willing to share them... 1) Check the database to see if I already have one for the unit in question. If not... 2) Scan and save the file as a .GIF, .JPEG, or .JPG file. Name is by class, underscore, unit #, .format (e.g. "n5c_1019.jpg"). 3) E-mail the file to me as an attachement. In the body of the message, describe the locale, timeframe of photo, credit for photo, etc. Thanks. NOTE: There are a few bugs in the database which will be corrected by a new rev of the server software tonight or Friday. These apply to both the Diesel Locomotive & the Cabin Car databases: a) The database will only allow you (a unique user) to open the same record one. b) When you open a single unit record, it says the photo is missing (if there is one). It is not, it is a database link problem. c) When you open a single unit record in the Cabin Car database, some code shows in place of the data for four of the fields. Stay tuned...this is getting really neat! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Diesel Loco Roster - Need Photos Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 10:19:32 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 931 I am looking for photos of PRR diesels for the searchable database (http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html). If you have any and are willing to share them... 1) Check the database to see if I already have one for the unit in question. If not... 2) Scan and save the file as a .GIF, .JPEG, or .JPG file. Name is by class, underscore, unit #, .format (e.g. "e8_4215.jpg"). 3) E-mail the file to me as an attachement. In the body of the message, describe the locale, timeframe of photo, credit for photo, etc. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:04:57 EST Subject: Re: The "Panhandle Cupola" was Re: Unasked Question/N-6b Cabin Car Content-Length: 2595 In a message dated 98-03-25 19:41:06 EST, SUVCW ORR writes: << Bob Johnson has photos of N6a cabins with the sheathing removed. From his photos, it appears the location of the cupola was a result of the method of lengthening the cars. Some had all the "new" space added to one end and some had equal amounts added to each end.>> (snip) >From Dan Cupper's N6B article in a late 1980s Keystone, I learned that the spacing of the windows on the N6 class depended upon the class of cabin car being converted. Conversion of the smaller NB class bodies placed closer to the ends than those from other classes. I still think that cupola placement was dependent on the design of the car being rebuilt. <> Again, that's nearly correct. The 1913 railroad safety law passed by the Ohio General Assembly may have contained language specifying a minimum length for cabin cars but that is not what really forced the PRR to launch its rebuilding program. The most significant element of the law was its prohibition of using any cabin car without a steel underframe in pusher service. The Ohio law was quickly adopted by a number of surrounding states. The law probably was unecessary. At the time wood-framed cabin carts were obsolete. In 1903, the Pennsylvania adopted a steel underframe design for its NC cabin car class used by Lines East. At the time, Lines West adopted the wood framed NE class. I've never seen a reasoning as to why Line West was lagging behind in the technology. Decisions on Lines East were made on Broad Street in Philly while Lines West rolling stock decisions were made in the Pennsylvania Co. headquarters in Pittsburgh. And it gets even more complicated. While the "P" Co. directly managed the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Railway Co., it controlled the Panhandle, the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad Co. which was headquartered in Columbus, Ohio, but operated independently.. I have not read any details on the decision making process. While it is said that "Lines West" had its own superintendent of motive power and master car builder, I'm never seen a defiitive statement that states the "P" Co. in Pittsburgh made these decisions for the independently-operated Pnahandle. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Freightcars Roster - Need Photos Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 11:30:14 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1171 Saw Jerry's postings looking for freight and passenger photos so I figured I'd add my own request for freight car photos for my freight car rosters.... Same type of needs and wants as Jerry (except the type of equipment...) So far I only have about 5 photos so there's little worry about duplication. Also, there's no reason there can't be multiple photos for a class anyway! Rob Jerry said... -------------- I am looking for photos of PRR diesels for the searchable database (http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html). If you have any and are willing to share them... 1) Check the database to see if I already have one for the unit in question. If not... 2) Scan and save the file as a .GIF, .JPEG, or .JPG file. Name is by class, underscore, unit #, .format (e.g. "e8_4215.jpg"). 3) E-mail the file to me as an attachement. In the body of the message, describe the locale, timeframe of photo, credit for photo, etc. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Freightcars Roster - Need Photos Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 11:53:19 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 717 On 3/26/98 12:30 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >Also, >there's no reason there can't be multiple photos for a class anyway! I am accepting multiple photos per class, just one per unit. Just to clarify. Actually I can do more than one photo per unit. I'm just not going to initially. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 26 Mar 98 12:00:40 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Model RR CAD software Content-Length: 709 Dick, Your initial message made it to the list about Model Railroad CAD software. If you have a web browser, I think you should visit this address: http://www.visi.com/~zoo/LDsig/ It's a keyword-searchable archive of postings to the Layout Design Special Interest Group's e-mail chat list. I know there are postings there about various layout design software programs, including 3rd-Planit and CADrail. I think Design Your Own Railroad is looked on as more of a toy. -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Freightcars Roster - Need Photos Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 12:21:32 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 822 Oops, sorry about the class / unit mixup! It's hard to think of freightcars on a per car basis! Of course a photo of each freightcar would make a nice (but huge) photo album! Rob On 3/26/98 12:30 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >Also, >there's no reason there can't be multiple photos for a class anyway! I am accepting multiple photos per class, just one per unit. Just to clarify. Actually I can do more than one photo per unit. I'm just not going to initially. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Freightcars Roster - Need Photos Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 12:31:54 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 899 On 3/26/98 1:21 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >Oops, sorry about the class / unit mixup! >It's hard to think of freightcars on a per car basis! >Of course a photo of each freightcar would make a nice (but huge) >photo album! Let's do it...who's with me? Given time, almost anything is possible. Of course we'd need Michael J. Fox, Christopher Lloyd, and a DeLorean to get us "back" to take many of the photos! Oh, what my site could be if I had more time... --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Bowser T1 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:52:01 -0500 Content-Length: 777 Hello All, Just wanted to let you all know, that our Bowser order came in. Of the original 6 requests we got for the new T1 kit, two orders were actually paid for (and shipped today). We have two T1's in stock, and two on back order, as Bowser is out -again- !! Also have 1 boiler, and 1 tender (for T1) in stock. As a reminder, we are still selling the T1 kit for $ 160.00 !! + s/h. Retail list is $ 199.95 for this beauty !! Thanks again, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions PS- I will be posting an update on the Sharks in a day or so !! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Works in Progress (fwd) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:07:51 EST Content-Length: 397 > The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/working.html . > > Perhaps I should append it with a section to include major projects > underway by other sites? I would suggest it. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Cabin Car Roster Now Online - Need Photos Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:28:27 -0500 Content-Length: 2316 Jerry, There are two ex-PRR Cabins in New Freedom, Pa.....Could not find them under PRR or CR ? I'll get you Photos scanned in the next couple weeks...Plus there is a PRR Cabin, painted PRR on the NCRy Station siding ( owned by Al Smith, of New Freedom ) Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Jerry_Britton > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Cabin Car Roster Now Online - Need Photos > Date: Thursday, March 26, 1998 9:17 AM > > The searchable Cabin Car Roster is now online. > > The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html . > > I am looking for photos of cabins. If you have any and are willing to > share them... > > 1) Check the database to see if I already have one for the unit in > question. If not... > > 2) Scan and save the file as a .GIF, .JPEG, or .JPG file. Name is by > class, underscore, unit #, .format (e.g. "n5c_1019.jpg"). > > 3) E-mail the file to me as an attachement. In the body of the message, > describe the locale, timeframe of photo, credit for photo, etc. > > Thanks. > > NOTE: There are a few bugs in the database which will be corrected by a > new rev of the server software tonight or Friday. These apply to both the > Diesel Locomotive & the Cabin Car databases: > > a) The database will only allow you (a unique user) to open the same > record one. > > b) When you open a single unit record, it says the photo is missing (if > there is one). It is not, it is a database link problem. > > c) When you open a single unit record in the Cabin Car database, some > code shows in place of the data for four of the fields. > > Stay tuned...this is getting really neat! > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Works in Progress Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 13:58:16 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1209 Jerry and the list, Here's a list of a few of my works in progress for my site.... PRR freight car roster - adding more classes and information on current classes. PRR diagrams - scanning the class diagrams for freight cars, cabin cars and locomotives (diesel & electric) Scanning & converting to PDF - "Motive Power Development, PRR" A 1920's book put out by Baldwin covering PRR steam & electric loco development. Scanning a 1916 copy of the PRR loading rules book. Instructions on loading various commodities onto/into freight cars Scanning a booklet with a listing of coal mines located on the PRR It also has photos of PRR coal loading & unloading facilities Maps of where each coal mine is located also. ----------------------- Also, if anyone has anything freight related let me know. I'm always looking for new stuff to add to the site! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:19:02 -0800 From: Craig Bowman Subject: P. Co Pipe fence finale' Content-Length: 970 After asking around out here in So. Calif. I have discovered the following about the P. Co pipe fence mentioned a few weeks ago. The P. Co. (Hugh Debberthine) brought the brass 2- and 3-rail versions in from Korea, and then sold the whole lot to Oriental Ltd, who was looking for a product after he stopped importing everything else. Next, Pike Stuff bought the supply of brass pipe fence, and then eventually sold it back to the P. Co.! (there will be a quiz following this message) As far as availability is concerned, the Whistle Stop in Pasadena has a supply (I don't have their phone number handy-they advertise in Model RRer). Or you can call the P. Co. in Covina, California and dicker directly (626) 966-3007. Craig Bowman ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: The "Panhandle Cupola" was Re: Unasked Question/N-6b Cabin Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:47:05 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1137 On 26 Mar, LINESWEST wrote: > The law probably was unecessary. At the time wood-framed cabin carts were > obsolete. In 1903, the Pennsylvania adopted a steel underframe design for its > NC cabin car class used by Lines East. At the time, Lines West adopted the > wood framed NE class. > I've never seen a reasoning as to why Line West was lagging behind in the > technology. [ ... ] I'm an easterner, so I'm nearly completely ignorant of conditions west of Pitt, so here's a question: were there many helper districts in the west? Did this make the question of wood-framed cabins irrelevant? I *do* know about Madison Hill, but that's about it. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:20:30 EST Subject: Re: The "Panhandle Cupola" was Re: Unasked Question/N-6b CabinCar Content-Length: 2149 In a message dated 98-03-26 14:51:44 EST, dennis@bbn.com writes: << I'm an easterner, so I'm nearly completely ignorant of conditions west of Pitt, so here's a question: were there many helper districts in the west? Did this make the question of wood-framed cabins irrelevant? >> I can't give you exact figures but no one's yet dsputed my statement that Ohio was second to only Pennsylvania in PRR trackage within its borders. When I was attending Ohio University at Athens, Ohio, in the heart of Appalachian Ohiol, I remeber seeing all the new freshman from back east scratching their heads in wonder at the hills. WE'd reply that they Iowa and Nebraska be just a wee bit further west. There were quite a number of helper districts in eastern and northeastern Ohio. The western edge of the allegheny plateau bisects the state on a southwest to northeast axis runnin from just north and west of Cincinnati, south of Dayton and Columbus and then it turns more sharply north running just east of Newark, Ohio, Canton, Akron and Warren. Densely iknbductrial and with coal fields scattered throughout the region, most of the Pennsylvania's Buckeye state trackage transvered its most rugged geography. While the hills weren't nearly as big as the are in Pennsylvania and West Virginia,they are big enoughr to slow down a train. The slant-sided Panhandle cupola was designed to fit through the 10 narrow tunnels on the 191-mile PCC&StL mainline between Pittsburgh and Newark,Ohio. I am personally unaware of any pusher district west of Newark. However I've been told that Clement Yard along the Panhandle's Columbus-Dayton "passenger line" mainline on the eastern edge of Dayton had oits origins as a helper cutoff at the top of the one percent grade PRR trains had to negotiate as they headed east of Dayton's central business diostrict along the banks of the Great MIami River. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:55:30 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 738 Carl K Vogel wrote: > > Based on your theory about the "upcoming" collision, should the readers > immediately dump any stock holdings in the Union Pacific?? > > Better even...all West Coast readers immediately send all your GG-1's > east for safekeeping at my house! > I would not recommend doing that! One of the better permutations of Murphy's Law states: "Everything east of the San Andreas Fault will fall into the Atlantic Ocean." ;-) Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:20:15 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: N6b's: Lines West's home away from home Content-Length: 550 Since everybody is talking about N6b's, I was wondering if anybody has seen any photos of Vandalia Line Cabin cars? I heard there's a library in Altoona that has a very large archive of Pennsy photos and some are in the collection. Can anybody give me an address and confirm they sell a list of photos for sale? Thanks, Steve Long ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:42:44 EST Subject: C. T. 1000 E Content-Length: 369 Hello All, Just acquired the May 1, 1945 List of Stations and Sidings. If you need any info contained therein just let me know. Harold Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Results of Prefix Vote Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 19:53:24 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 709 "PRR-Talk" has over 200 subscribers....but only 26 voted on the issue of using a prefix in the subjuct line. The result was 20-6 in favor of a prefix. I'm open for ideas, but unless someone suggests a better alternative by 4:30 p.m. Friday, March 27, I'll go with "[PRR] ". ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:46:21 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 2535 Carl Vogel (a chap of rare humor) writes: >You sucked me in until the 2nd paragraph. > >I'm still laughing! Nice piece of writing. > >Based on your theory about the "upcoming" collision, should the readers >immediately dump any stock holdings in the Union Pacific?? > >Better even...all West Coast readers immediately send all your GG-1's >east for safekeeping at my house! > ===== Actually, not to worry. By time the Great Collision occurrs (30,834,901 AD, two weeks next Thursday) the entire NA railroad net will have merged into one humongous system. With that much more east-west room to play in, the displacement shift will be just that much worse. By the time the Great Collision, PRR will have been stretched clear out to Los Angeles. When North America smashes into China at the dizzy speed of + - .0000242mm/year, the west coast will be pulverized. The end of the ROW (i.e. the former UPSPATSFGNMILW) will project outward over the collision point (being insulated from the impact by riding on a layer of loose ballast) and come to rest on the new Mega Continent. Result: PRR will reemerge - finally - as a true "Transcontinental": stretching from NYC to London! Practical considerations: * Leave the GG-1s there on the west coast: they will be needed to form the roster of Lines Way-the-hell-west. You might want to evacuate the List members, however. Jerry, could you set up a database so people who can offer crash space can start planning? * Someone will need to produce decals for PRR in Chineese, Russian, Turkish, German, Swiss and French. Would you folks prefer Microscale or Champ? * Finally, it is going to break poor old Tom V's heart not to be able to cry about being the token "Lines Westerner" any more. A collection is being taken to help his moving expenses. We need to start planning for this now, folks. 30 million years may seem like a lot of time, but with family, job, etc., it will fly past quicker than you could imagine. Regards, Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:33:43 EST Subject: PRR Private Cars Content-Length: 398 Can anyone tell me anything about the following PRR private cars: Car 225, Car 3202 and Car 20 ? What years were they used ? Where ? Any help would be appreciated. Andrew Sentipal ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:40:04 EST Subject: Re: C. T. 1000 C Content-Length: 374 I have the Nov. 1st 1923 C.T. 1000 C from the Central Region to provide information for those going back to those good old days. Dennis K. Sautters Canton, OH ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:21:04 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1395 On 26 Mar, Robert A. Boyd wrote: > Result: PRR will reemerge - finally - as a true "Transcontinental": > stretching from NYC to London! Hmm... they've already strung wire from London to Berlin and beyond, right? Nice of them to give us a leg up! > * Someone will need to produce decals for PRR in Chineese, Russian, > Turkish, German, Swiss and French. Would you folks prefer Microscale or > Champ? Microscale or Oddballs, they make decals in both HO and N! Let's see, how do you translate "Penn's Woods" into these languages? Would the initials (or ideograms!) fit into a keystone? > We need to start planning for this now, folks. 30 million years may seem > like a lot of time, but with family, job, etc., it will fly past quicker > than you could imagine. I believe you! I've forgotten that there was a time before I had a kid... Now, how did I ever have time to build all these models? Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:40:50 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR: Soldering white metal Content-Length: 1034 I am trying to reconfigure a Bowser I-1 so it has a right side air pump. To allow the pump to fit, I had to grind off part of the pre-cast runningboard and construct a replacement of brass. I don't know what the composition of the white metal is, but it does not seem to take solder. I tried to get some solder on the runningboard in front of the reverse mechanism so I could sweat the brass to the metal. When the solder cooled I found it could be flicked off with a thumb nail. Unless someone has another suggestion, I guess I will have to either solder a bracket to the runningboard and insert this in a hole in the boiler, or use gap filling CAA. Any other ideas??? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:37:05 -0800 From: "Michael M. Jackson" Subject: Re: PRR: Soldering white metal Content-Length: 1463 Sir: Zamac, or pot metal, seems to be very hard to solder due to the makeup of the alloy. At one time, Kemtron offered a special solder and flux (called Sal-met) specifically for Zamac, but since their demise I haven't seen it. In the past one of the standard techniques was to drive a brass screw into the Zamac part at the location to be soldered, then solder the brass part to the screw. Another technique was to load up a Dremel grinding wheel with solder, then use it to "power mash" the solder into the pores of the metal. I never tried this so I can't comment on its success. A visit to a well-stocked hardware may turn up the special solder and flux. With Bowser kits, I've had a lot of success with slow setting epoxies and a compound called JB Weld for mounting parts. They seem to have more shear strength than CA. My Bowser H-9 is 2 years old and my Decapod is about a year old; neither shows any sign of shedding parts. Just be sure to have clean bonding faces, and "key in" the parts by adding brass pins if necessary. Another side effect is the extended time frame waiting for the epoxy to dry, but then again the hobby is supposed to be fun. Good luck, and enjoy your kit. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:20:50 EST Subject: Re: PRR: Soldering white metal Content-Length: 1196 How about drilling, countersinking, and tapping for a few 0-80 flathead screws along the boiler where the running board will go? Then solder the running board to the screw heads. John Keel In a message dated 98-03-27 15:50:20 EST, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: << I am trying to reconfigure a Bowser I-1 so it has a right side air pump. To allow the pump to fit, I had to grind off part of the pre-cast runningboard and construct a replacement of brass. I don't know what the composition of the white metal is, but it does not seem to take solder. I tried to get some solder on the runningboard in front of the reverse mechanism so I could sweat the brass to the metal. When the solder cooled I found it could be flicked off with a thumb nail. Unless someone has another suggestion, I guess I will have to either solder a bracket to the runningboard and insert this in a hole in the boiler, or use gap filling CAA. Any other ideas??? >> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:35:02 EST Subject: Re: PRR: Soldering white metal Content-Length: 967 In a message dated 98-03-27 15:50:20 EST, Don Harper writes: << Unless someone has another suggestion, I guess I will have to either solder a bracket to the runningboard and insert this in a hole in the boiler, or use gap filling CAA. Any other ideas??? >> Unival Corporation, 498 Nepperhan Avenue, Yonkers, NY 10701, has pot- metal/zinc metal solder paste. I think the problem you may have is the dissimilar materials, but I am not a metallurgist. I haven't tried the metal/zinc paste from these people, but the silver bearing solder paste works good on brass to brass and fair on brass to whatever the boiler front on the Bowser M1 is. It might work better in the hands of a more skilled solderer than myself. Bpb Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Works In Progress - Update Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 19:23:21 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1327 Okay, now I'm finally having some fun with the new server. Got in a new rev which resolves 99% of the bugs in the databases. Enjoy! Meanwhile, yesterday I posted about a "Works In Progress" page (http://prr.dsop.com/working.html) which listed stuff I am working on -- to avoid duplication. I invited Rob Schoenberg to test something for me. He created an "unlinked" page at his site that he can update at will. It contains his project list. I then added some code to my page. The result is that when someone views my page, it lists my projects, and then merges in his list...Way cool! I am now inviting anyone else with a substantial PRR site that has projects underway to contact me directly if you'd like to do the same. Now we can go to one URL to see what everyone is working on!!! There are probably a lot of other applications for this same feature of my server. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Works In Progress - Update (fwd) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:06:32 EST Content-Length: 677 > I am now inviting anyone else with a substantial PRR site that has > projects underway to contact me directly if you'd like to do the same. > Now we can go to one URL to see what everyone is working on!!! Today, I'll try. > There are probably a lot of other applications for this same feature of > my server. Er ... umm ... er ... like ... sort of ... maybe ... a singular index of stuff on PRR sites??? Ouch! Just bit my tongue. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:25:19 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: [PRR] CAD?? Content-Length: 518 Hi all; It looks like the only server that dropped my original CAD question was my own! Thanks for all the feedback. From what I've been hearing, I think I'll give 3rd Planit a go. I (or my next of kin :-) will let you know how it works out. Regards, Dick Taylor Dalbo MN. (a.k.a. Baja Canada) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:06:57 EST Subject: [PRR] English as the preferred language for European Content-Length: 1882 The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, the British government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short). In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c" Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go. By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" by z" and "w" by " v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:23:15 EST Subject: [PRR] ERROR Content-Length: 330 The message "English as the preferred language for European communications" was addressed to PRR Talk in Error, Sorry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] ERROR Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:29:03 -0500 Content-Length: 369 >The message "English as the preferred language for European communications" >was addressed to PRR Talk in Error, Sorry Zanks. I zoght it vas kol! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:52:36 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: The "Panhandle Cupola" Content-Length: 6016 In a message dated 98-03-26 14:51:38 EST, Dennis Rockwell writes: > On 26 Mar, LINESWEST wrote: > > > The law probably was unecessary. At the time wood-framed cabin carts > were > > obsolete. In 1903, the Pennsylvania adopted a steel underframe design for > its > > NC cabin car class used by Lines East. At the time, Lines West adopted the > > wood framed NE class. > > I've never seen a reasoning as to why Line West was lagging behind in > the > > technology. [ ... ] Remember that prior to 1920, corporate control of Lines West was through a holding company ("The Pennsylvania Company"). Until 1920, Lines Southwest and Lines Northwest were separate operating companies from PRR and each other, with personnel, equipment, and operating practices inherited from their many predecessor companies. Some of these Lines West predecessors were big roads in their own day, built up by Chicagoans and Cincinnatians etc. who had little connection with the PRR. It's a wonder there was so little drift from PRR standard practice after the Pennsy consolidated its corporate (not operating) control in 1869 and again about 1890. Some of my favorite Lines West differences: 1. Ashcan headlights centered on the smokebox 2. Different Lines West engines (notably the H10 and N1) 3. Lines West was the dumping ground for PRR's USRA engines (L2, N2) 4. Lines West components used their own reporting marks on freight cars ("VANDALIA"!), then used "Pennsylvania Lines", until 1920. 5. The aforementioned differences in cabin cars (gee, I wonder if they were called cabooses on Lines West back then?). By the way, even into the 1960s Lines West's cabins carried numbers like 980xxx. Lines East woodies were numbered like 475xxx. The cabin car business circa 1900 was typical of Lines West local options. Lines West shops were still traditional wood car shops. Lines Northwest was building cars in Fort Wayne (and elsewhere? Grand Rapids?), Lines Southwest had carbuilding in Dennison OH, Columbus OH, Logansport IN, and maybe Terre Haute. The 4-wheel products of these different shops logically met local needs: e.g., wide cupola cabooses for the tunnel-less Fort Wayne line; the tall tapered narrow cupola for the tunneled Panhandle Division. Don't forget that originally, cabooses were assigned to individual crews and did not wander from their home division. Finally, Lines West did go to steel underframes in 1914 with the N6a and N6b standard rebuilds of its woodies. So we're only talking an 11-year technology lag. I think Lines East was influenced earlier by its massive traffic load, plus it had the extra push of on-line steelmaking customers, who were actively lobbying for more steel in rolling stock. > I'm an easterner, so I'm nearly completely ignorant of > conditions west of Pitt, so here's a question: were there > many helper districts in the west? > Yes, there were helper districts, especially before diesels and their huge low-speed tractive effort. On Lines Southwest, the Panhandle Division had those 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh Union Station (MP 0) and Dennison OH (MP 90) until pre-1950 rebuilding took some of the tunnels, grades, and curves out. This line was a short-mileage route across geography that had definitely not been shaved flat by glaciers. With any tonnage at all, it was a nice piece of mountain railroad up from the Ohio River at Corliss (MP 4), back down to the Ohio at Weirton Jct WV (MP 42), up again from Mingo Jct (MP46), over the hills of an unglaciated eastern Ohio, and down into the valley of the Tuscarawas River (Philadephia Road, MP 87). Again, where the main line dived into the valley of the Miami River at Dayton OH, there was a long stiff grade down a massive earthen fill, from the west end of Clement yard (MP 12.3 from Xenia) to Dutoit Street (MP 14.6). I was always told that this was a helper grade eastbound in steam days. I'll let somebody else inventory the pain between Rochester PA and Crestline OH on the Fort Wayne mainline. But the fact that Pennsy built low grade bypasses of this line is suggestive of helper districts on the main line. > Did this make the > question of wood-framed cabins irrelevant? It was relevant - that's why Lines West started using steel underframes the next year. Ironically, Ohio later passed another law that forbade "the operation of pusher engines behind occupied caboose". By employees timetable rule, the cabin crew was allowed to ride the pusher. > I *do* know about Madison Hill, but that's about it. Believe it or not, Madison Hill (a 5.89% grade between Madison and North Madison IN) didn't normally have helpers, probably because it was at the end of a branch, and was a short 1.2 mile slide down to the Ohio River at Madison. Instead, the Hill had grotesquely overweighted steam engines and then Pennsy's only two SD-7's, which were ballasted to 360,000 pounds. Also, these units and their steam predecessors had special additional braking and rail washing equipment. Along with other special rules in the employee timetable, the engine always ran on the south (downhill) end of the cars handled, with a 15 car maximum. It's part of local lore around here that one SD7 was always posted at the top of the grade at North Madison, and the other (the backup) would be working in or around Indianapolis, where the two units were assigned for maintenance. I've never seen a picture of one of these units farther away from the Madison Branch than Frankfort IN, north up the I&F branch from Indy. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:09:34 EST Subject: [PRR] H-34 hoppers w/black roofs Content-Length: 953 Hey Yuze Gize, I have in front of me two slides of an H-34 hopper, behind steam with a roof painted black! It is not coal soot, or dirt as I exaimed the photographs closely on a slide screen. I looked for signs of dirt and soot on the top of the center sills and it is not there, this is a black roof! I talked to Nick Seaman about it and he had seen photographic evidence of the same thing. My brother ed has another published photograph of the same thing. What gives? Can anyone shed some light on the subject? I am going to bring it out in my up coming article but is this just one of those lost secretes that went down with the ship? PRR-Talk to me. Watching from LINE way out West, Greg Martin Salem, OR ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: [PRR] RE: HO Brass D16sb 4-4-0 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:54:41 -0500 Content-Length: 338 Westside/Samhongsa PRR D16sb 4-4-0. Mint in original box. $350 plus shipping. If interested contact wgripp@prius.jnj.com. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Feedback on Diesel Database? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 10:52:53 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1083 Has anyone tried the searchable Diesel Roster database? The bugs should all be worked out, and many photos are now linked. The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databses.html I'd like to know what you think....what's it need...etc., as I am about to dupe the code to create the Electric Roster database. Dave Wartell just did the data entry for me and it's about ready to roll. I'd rather make code changes in one place, before replication. Down the road will be a Steam Roster, Passenger Car Roster, Magazine Index, Recipes, and an SPF database. The latter is the one we discussed about a month ago online...database of PRR-Talk subscribers. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael r weatherhead" Subject: Re: [PRR] Feedback on Diesel Database? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:30:58 -0500 Content-Length: 1533 UNABLE TO ACCESS-FILE NOT AVAIL -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Sunday, March 29, 1998 10:55 AM Subject: [PRR] Feedback on Diesel Database? >Has anyone tried the searchable Diesel Roster database? > >The bugs should all be worked out, and many photos are now linked. > >The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databses.html > >I'd like to know what you think....what's it need...etc., as I am about >to dupe the code to create the Electric Roster database. Dave Wartell >just did the data entry for me and it's about ready to roll. I'd rather >make code changes in one place, before replication. > >Down the road will be a Steam Roster, Passenger Car Roster, Magazine >Index, Recipes, and an SPF database. The latter is the one we discussed >about a month ago online...database of PRR-Talk subscribers. > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:59:54 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Feedback on Diesel Database? Content-Length: 410 On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, michael r weatherhead wrote: > UNABLE TO ACCESS-FILE NOT AVAIL > >The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databses.html yeah. typo: http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:08:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H-34 hoppers w/black roofs Content-Length: 567 Greg, Are you certain it's a Pennsy H-32? The N&W had very similar classes with the main difference being a different number of vertical ribs. They were HC-3 and HC-3a classes. The N&W cars were the same shade of gray as the Pennsy cars but many had black ends and some had black roofs. They used them predominantly to haul pulverized coal. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: URL / Feedback on Diesel Database? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 16:59:31 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1358 On 3/29/98 1:49 PM, John E. Moore (birdie2@citrus.infi.net) wrote: > The URL that you posted today about databases won't come up on my end. >Is it you or me? Oops, a typo...should be http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html Original post follows: -----(clip)----- Has anyone tried the searchable Diesel Roster database? The bugs should all be worked out, and many photos are now linked. The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databses.html I'd like to know what you think....what's it need...etc., as I am about to dupe the code to create the Electric Roster database. Dave Wartell just did the data entry for me and it's about ready to roll. I'd rather make code changes in one place, before replication. Down the road will be a Steam Roster, Passenger Car Roster, Magazine Index, Recipes, and an SPF database. The latter is the one we discussed about a month ago online...database of PRR-Talk subscribers. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Need PRRT&HS Convention Info Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 17:03:33 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 976 I already registered for the convention...even received my confirmation. However, my plans have changed and now I WILL be there all day Saturday...and can even attend the dinner. But since I sent in my registration previously, I need some info. Can someone please e-mail me the three dinner choices, the cost of each, and the address to mail the form to? I'll send in a supplemental check. RECAP: I'll be there Friday 9 a.m. to @ 3 p.m.; Saturday 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. Hope to see many of you there and perhaps sit together at dinner. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:41:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H-34 hoppers w/black roofs Content-Length: 1383 In a message dated 98-03-28 19:14:10 EST, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << Hey Yuze Gize, I have in front of me two slides of an H-34 hopper, behind steam with a roof painted black! It is not coal soot, or dirt as I exaimed the photographs closely on a slide screen. I looked for signs of dirt and soot on the top of the center sills and it is not there, this is a black roof! I talked to Nick Seaman about it and he had seen photographic evidence of the same thing. My brother ed has another published photograph of the same thing. What gives? Can anyone shed some light on the subject? I am going to bring it out in my up coming article but is this just one of those lost secretes that went down with the ship? PRR-Talk to me. Watching from LINE way out West, Greg Martin >> The painting instructions issued in 1955 requires two coats of asphaltum compound on all galvanized metal roofs when the car is new. If these are new cars this may be the asphaltum without an overspray of the gray. When cars were reshopped and repainted unless the roof needed to be repaired they were painted with the gray CH color. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: [PRR] Steam Loco. Painting Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:55:44 -0500 Content-Length: 1873 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BD5BB1.3E239420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi group, =20 Does anyone have a painting direction for a post 1950 painting of a = K-4? I need to know if the cab roof was Freight Car Color (FCC) or DGLE. Thanks in advance =20 Neil Campbell ncamp@iname.com ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BD5BB1.3E239420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 group,       
 
    Does anyone have = a painting=20 direction for a post 1950 painting of a K-4? I need to know if the cab = roof was=20 Freight Car Color (FCC) or DGLE.
 
Thanks in advance
       =20
Neil Campbell
ncamp@iname.com
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BD5BB1.3E239420-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR China Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 08:33:08 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1096 Calling all PRR Dining Car China Collectors... I'm looking for someone to spearhead a page on "Keystone Crossings" on PRR dining car china. Would involve editing of plain text and forwarding to me. I'll add the web coding...unless you know how and want to do it yourself. I see this as a slowly evolving set of pages, to begin as an overview of (generic) railroad china and how glamorous it was and why people collect it, as well as references to information for collectors (online and print). That would be followed with subpages on the various patterns the PRR used over the years and what pieces were/are available. Photos to accompany would be encouraged. Any takers? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Decal Frustrations Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 08:39:21 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1290 Looking for tips on applying decals... When I was last in the hobby -- 18 years ago -- I was content to run non-prototypical Athearn cars. Now I am building up cars using largely Union Station Products car sides. The assembly and painting is going very well, but the decalling leaves something to be desired. I am using Champ decals and AccuSet. Per another suggestion, I have "cut" the Accuset 50/50 with water...to make the setting process take a little longer. My frustration is with the dual and single stripes on the sides of the cars. I can get a stripe down straight enough, but not with the ends where I want them. When I try to slide the decal laterally along the side to get it in place, it "bows" vertically. When I try to push the bow out, I get the "jaggies" and a very unsatisfying result. Anyone have a tried and true method of laying down stripes? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Frustrations From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 11:59:37 -0500 Content-Length: 1937 Jerry, If you have an airbrush, mask painting stipes is relatively easy. Paint the car gold (or mustard)first then mask thre stripes with 1/64 in charting tape. This stuff can be bought at drafting and art supply stores. Then paint the car red; or paint the engine green. I have actually mask painted 5 stripe diesels this way! (and the painted color is much more dense than decals!) regards, Andy Miller - ------------ Looking for tips on applying decals... When I was last in the hobby -- 18 years ago -- I was content to run non-prototypical Athearn cars. Now I am building up cars using largely Union Station Products car sides. The assembly and painting is going very well, but the decalling leaves something to be desired. I am using Champ decals and AccuSet. Per another suggestion, I have "cut" the Accuset 50/50 with water...to make the setting process take a little longer. My frustration is with the dual and single stripes on the sides of the cars. I can get a stripe down straight enough, but not with the ends where I want them. When I try to slide the decal laterally along the side to get it in place, it "bows" vertically. When I try to push the bow out, I get the "jaggies" and a very unsatisfying result. Anyone have a tried and true method of laying down stripes? - --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Frustrations Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 12:13:24 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1418 On 3/30/98 12:59 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >If you have an airbrush, mask painting stipes is relatively easy. Paint the >car gold (or mustard)first then mask thre stripes with 1/64 in charting >tape. >This stuff can be bought at drafting and art supply stores. Then paint >the car >red; or paint the engine green. I have actually mask painted 5 stripe diesels >this way! (and the painted color is much more dense than decals!) This method was discussed several months ago on "PRR-Talk" and I agree, it "should" be the way to go. However, I cannot find 1/64" chart tape anywhere...and I have looked and looked. There was even a mail order house -- forget the name, started with a "C" I think -- referred on the list. They no longer carry it this narrow. Narrowist I could find was 1/8" which is just a bit too wide, don't you think! (?) With everything going electronic, nobody seems to need the old fashioned stuff anymore. So, it's back to the decals! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Drye, John" Subject: [PRR] Railfanning in Harrisburg Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:20:20 -0500 Content-Length: 457 Any suggestions from the group on the best railfanning spots in Harrisburg? A while back, there was mention of a get-together at Rockville Tower. How close to the tower can one get without running into CR police? Thanks, >John Drye ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Railfanning in Harrisburg (fwd) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:52:06 EST Content-Length: 761 > Any suggestions from the group on the best railfanning spots in > Harrisburg? A while back, there was mention of a get-together at > Rockville Tower. How close to the tower can one get without running > into CR police? I was a local boy from '83 to '88. In my experience, you _might_ run into Conrail's finest if you drive into the wye where ROCKVILLE once stood. Depends on how reckless you are. You will almost certainly generate a visit if you walk any significant amount out onto the bridge. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Belpaire Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:59:58 EST Subject: [PRR] LIRR N5's Content-Length: 921 I am seeking information on the history of the two N5's that were sold to the LIRR. One of them, number 2, was donated to the Locomotive 35 Restoration Committee, and I am seeking to learn more about their past. I have been unable to find out the original PRR numbers for these cars, so I do not know when they were built, or when they were sold to the LIRR. I heard a rumor that these cars were the first 2 N5's built and were among the first all steel cars in the US. They are from one of the early batches, as they do not have collsion posts. You can see a picture of how number 2 looks today at . Any help would be appreciated, thanks. Roger Hahn ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] AT&SF head end cars in PRR trains? Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:23:37 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 815 A new set of N Scale decals is being produced to decorate AT&SF Fe-24 and Fe-26 50' double-door express boxcars as they appeared from the early 1940s to the mid 1950s; I was wondering if these ever show up in PRR trains? I can't recall ever seeing them in pictures, but that doesn't mean much. Thanks very much for any help you can render! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:46:38 -0500 From: Terry Brentzel Subject: [PRR] "View" Tower Content-Length: 882 I spent some time track side yesterday (Sunday) at Duncannon, Pa. I was rewarded with 16 trains in the 5 hours I allowed myself - not bad!. Assuming that the number marking on the AT&T fiber optic marker is the milepost number (?), there is a large concrete foundation at milepost 118.8. It is approx. 200 yds. west of the signal bridge and a like distance east of the stone bridge all of this just east of Duncannon. It is 4 feet high w/ steps and remnants of numerous cables in conduit and at ground level at the end opposite the steps. Is this the location of View tower? If not, then what was it? Thanks in advance for your replies. Terry Brentzel ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfanning in Harrisburg Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 13:53:48 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2126 On 3/30/98 1:20 PM, Drye, John (JDRYE@SPA.com) wrote: >Any suggestions from the group on the best railfanning spots in >Harrisburg? A while back, there was mention of a get-together at >Rockville Tower. How close to the tower can one get without running >into CR police? Been a local all my life... As Mark said, the wye where ROCKVILLE once stood is probably not the best spot, though I've been there a few times myself. East end of the bridge doesn't really have a good spot. On the west end of the Rockville Bridge, take 11/15 north. Just south of the bridge -- as the wye starts -- there is room to pull over and park. There is a rock bluff between the road and the tracks. Though I don't recommend it for those not strong and agile, there is an easy to follow path to the top of the bluff. The top is all rocks and offers a great view of the bridge. However, you can't see any of the approaches. With a scanner, is an ideal spot. Take a sandwich and some drinks and stay awhile! Another 1/2 mile north is the Marysville passenger station. Park there and watch a decent amount of action. Enola Yards, on the west side of the river and also on 11/15 -- about 1 mile south of Marysville, is pretty boring now. Half the yard was actually taken up many years ago. Most of what's left is temporary "parking" for through trains. Diesel shop sees quite a bit of action, however. Down in Harrisburg, just south of the State Street bridge, there is a parking lot next to HARRIS tower. There you can overlook the north side of the passenger station and watch through freights from the Royalton Branch coming up through. Reilly Street Engine Terminal is gone; LEMO is gone. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Frustrations From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 14:13:27 -0500 Content-Length: 1901 This is a CRISIS! I feared this day. Powerpoint has driven them of the market! I buy mine at Charette, which may be the place you were refering to. I will check them out personally tomorrow. (and clean them out if they have any left) regards, Andy - -------- On 3/30/98 12:59 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >If you have an airbrush, mask painting stipes is relatively easy. Paint the >car gold (or mustard)first then mask thre stripes with 1/64 in charting >tape. >This stuff can be bought at drafting and art supply stores. Then paint >the car >red; or paint the engine green. I have actually mask painted 5 stripe diesels >this way! (and the painted color is much more dense than decals!) This method was discussed several months ago on "PRR-Talk" and I agree, it "should" be the way to go. However, I cannot find 1/64" chart tape anywhere...and I have looked and looked. There was even a mail order house -- forget the name, started with a "C" I think -- referred on the list. They no longer carry it this narrow. Narrowist I could find was 1/8" which is just a bit too wide, don't you think! (?) With everything going electronic, nobody seems to need the old fashioned stuff anymore. So, it's back to the decals! - --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] AT&SF head end cars in PRR trains? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 14:15:39 -0500 Content-Length: 1307 As all express cars had to go through the Hudson River tunnels to PXT in Sunnyside or the NYC Post Office in Penn Station, I doubt that the PRR would accept express cars that high. That may be why they were never seen. Just a guess. regards Andy Miller - -------- A new set of N Scale decals is being produced to decorate AT&SF Fe-24 and Fe-26 50' double-door express boxcars as they appeared from the early 1940s to the mid 1950s; I was wondering if these ever show up in PRR trains? I can't recall ever seeing them in pictures, but that doesn't mean much. Thanks very much for any help you can render! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||__ _____)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! - ----------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Database Enhancements Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 14:25:11 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1147 I've made some enhancements to my databases. The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html (I double checked it this time!) Cabin Car Roster: 1) Can Search on Region field 2) Can sort results by road number, class, or region 3) Results page now includes Assignment field Diesel Locomotive Roster 1) Can sort results by road number, class, or model There was a suggestion about a field for "as delivered paint scheme". Since this affects such a small portion of units, this info -- when available -- would be added to the generic "notes" field. Keep the feedback coming...it's appreciated. I want to nail down the locomotive database BEFORE I dupe it to create the Electric Locomotives and Steam Locomotives databases. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:21:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Frustrations Content-Length: 1456 In a message dated 98-03-30 12:06:11 EST, Andy Miller writes: << If you have an airbrush, mask painting stipes is relatively easy. Paint the car gold (or mustard)first then mask thre stripes with 1/64 in charting tape. This stuff can be bought at drafting and art supply stores. >> First I agree with Jerry's frustration. I just painted Harbor Rest and a two-unit diner. The double stripe wasn't bad because I could kind of tweak the Microscale stripes along the beltrail which these cars have. I cannot emphasize enough what Jerry already said. Dilute the heck out of the decal settng solution. And some Champ solution I had (I used their decals for lettering) which was older almost dissolved the decals since the water had evaporated over time. But I am not satisfied with the single stripe. I will try your chart tape method if I can find 1/64. Although it is about 35% too wide, that only amounts to about 1/3" in HO. I have even asked every art store if there were any felt tip or any inks which would "bite" on a painted surface or fine enough brushes for the artistically impaired. Question for you, Andy: any recommendations for "synthetic buff" or "Pullman gold enamel" paint? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] "View" Tower (fwd) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:54:53 EST Content-Length: 1197 > Assuming that the number marking on the AT&T fiber optic marker is the > milepost number (?), Generally, this is right on the nose. (Why not use an existing system, where one exists??) > there is a large concrete foundation at milepost > 118.8. It is approx. 200 yds. west of the signal bridge and a like > distance east of the stone bridge all of this just east of Duncannon. It > is 4 feet high w/ steps and remnants of numerous cables in conduit and > at ground level at the end opposite the steps. Is this the location of > View tower? If not, then what was it? You have it exactly. VIEW, as you may know, was partially destroyed in a derailment (Penn Central, I believe?). The interlocking was simply removed, until re-established by Conrail as CP-CANNON in the mid- to late-80s with the downgrading of the Middle Division to 2 tracks. CANNON was kept to expand to 3 tracks east of there, in preparation for BANKS, ROCKVILLE, and Enola Yard. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:34:17 EST Subject: Lines West Grades was Re: [PRR] Re: The "Panhandle Cupola" Content-Length: 2834 In a message dated 98-03-28 13:59:12 EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route >> I've found a soulmate! Rick, I'm happy you confirmed my suspicions about Clement Yard. Since it jsut west of the grade separated crossing of the B&0's (nee Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton's Dayton cut-off that tied into the B&0's Ironton Branch) over which the Pennsy held tracakage rights to the northern end of the original route of the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern (nee Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati), it could have been argued that it was a set out yard. However, there was never enough traffic on the Ironton Branch to justify its use as significant a interchange point. The Pennsy mainline and the Ironton branch crossed at Greene Tower (XW) inside the PRR's Xenia Yard where there were set out tracks. I remember reading that the Panhandle mainline grade from Duitoit Street to Clement was the ruling grade for Amtrak's misnamed National Limted when it ran from Washington D.C. to St. Louis via the Panhandle main from Columbus west. This was one of two places in Ohio where steep grades led the Pennsylvania to operate what amounted to separate lines for through passenger and throiugh freight traffic -- the "passenger" line between Columbus and Richmond, Ind. via Xenia, Dayton and New Paris, O., and the "freight" line which ran from Columbus to Richmond about 20 to 30 miles to the north via Urbana, O., Piqua, Bradford and New Paris. In Burgess & Kennedy, it is reported that the original Fort Wayne routing from Pittsburgh to Alliance ascended a 1 percent grade. Construction of th Bayrd cutoff between Yellow Creek on the west bank of the Ohio River and Alliance via Bayard in the late 1800s gave the Pennsylvania a low grade but longer route for tonnage freights headed toward Akron, Cleveland and the .Lake Erie trade. via Roschester, Pa., East Liverpool, O.; Wellsville Bayard and Allianmce. Passenger, express and mail traffic used the shorter but steeper route from Beaver Falls, Pa., Columbiana, O., and Alliance. Rick, I've never seen a shot of a T1 at Cincinnati Union Terminal. I've theorized the steep grades down the LIttle Miami River valley between Greene (Xenia) and Rendcomb (North side of Cincinnati) towers K4s as the preferred passenger motive power until they were replaced by the E7s. Am I on track or does a shot of a T1 at CUT exist (I just love Art Deco. Loewry RULEZ! Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:37:14 -0500 Subject: [PRR] T-! directions have some glaring detail errors. Content-Length: 792 Be aware that the wiring/plumbing that joins the two trainphone "disks" by the tanks on the T-1 tender in the new Bowser T-1 not only are unclear in the directions, but also do not match the prototype. For a good view and photo of the actual situation, see the photo on page 221 of Staufer's Pennsy Power I. I have assumed, of course, that Staufer's pic is typical as opposed to atypical. If I am wrong or if any of you have a clearer photo, I'd sure appreciate a copy. Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:50:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: More on [PRR] Decal Frustrations Content-Length: 2735 >In a message dated 98-03-30 12:06:11 EST, Andy Miller writes: > ><< If you have an airbrush, mask painting stipes is relatively easy. Paint >the > car gold (or mustard)first then mask thre stripes with 1/64 in charting tape. > This stuff can be bought at drafting and art supply stores. >> > >First I agree with Jerry's frustration. I just painted Harbor Rest and a >two-unit diner. The double stripe wasn't bad because I could kind of tweak the >Microscale stripes along the beltrail which these cars have. >I cannot emphasize enough what Jerry already said. Dilute the heck out of the >decal settng solution. And some Champ solution I had (I used their decals for >lettering) which was older almost dissolved the decals since the water had >evaporated over time. Okay, time to chime in... I had similar problems in trying to align the very thin gold stripe that is on the bottom of the 5 stripe GG-1 scheme. My solution? DO NOT APPLY the decal with ANY setting solution. Use water (distilled may be better as it leaves l;ess residue) Float the decal off of the paper in a bowl, and apply with plenty of water. Use a small paintbrush to add water to the model as needed and a paper towel edge to remove excess water. The decal can be pulled from one end, which straightened it out nicely. It was even possible to get the ends of 3" pieces to match up nicely! I also used a straight edge to make sure that the decal was really straight. Once you are happy with the decal's placement THEN add diluted setting solution. Subsequently add full strength solution. Happy Decaling, The "R. Loewy Honorary Professor of Paint and Decaling" aka Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:55:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] AT&SF head end cars in PRR trains? Content-Length: 729 In a message dated 98-03-30 14:45:28 EST, Andy Miller writes : << As all express cars had to go through the Hudson River tunnels to PXT in Sunnyside or the NYC Post Office in Penn Station, I doubt that the PRR would accept express cars that high. That may be why they were never seen. Just a guess. >> Certainly would explain why they weren't seen in that part of the country. Also explains to me why the X42 mail storage cars were 14'6' vs. 15'2-1/2" for the X40 and X41 class boxcars. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] AT&SF head end cars in PRR trains? Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:07:05 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 642 On 30 Mar, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > As all express cars had to go through the Hudson River tunnels to PXT in > Sunnyside or the NYC Post Office in Penn Station, I doubt that the PRR would > accept express cars that high. That may be why they were never seen. Just a > guess. That was my first guess as well, but they could've gone to all other destinations in the system, couldn't they? Is a puzzlement... Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:14:20 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: [PRR] Cabin roster Content-Length: 648 Greetings, Have just reviewed the Cabin roster for the Chesapeake Region. Some questions arise. 1. Was there no Delmarva-Cape Charles pool #2 ? I found #1, 3, 4 , 5 & 6. Cabin car # 982084 shows assigned to Delmarva-Cape Charles pool but no number. 2. Cabin # 981138 has no assignment. 3. Cabin cars # 981125 & 981128 are assigned to Norfolk, is this Norfolk, Va.?? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] AT&SF head end cars in PRR trains? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 17:28:32 -0500 Content-Length: 673 There is another place?? On 30 Mar, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > As all express cars had to go through the Hudson River tunnels to PXT in > Sunnyside or the NYC Post Office in Penn Station, I doubt that the PRR would > accept express cars that high. That may be why they were never seen. Just a > guess. That was my first guess as well, but they could've gone to all other destinations in the system, couldn't they? Is a puzzlement... Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin roster Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 19:22:29 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1145 On 3/30/98 5:14 PM, s.a. mccall (hosam@gc.net) wrote: > Have just reviewed the Cabin roster for the Chesapeake Region. Some >questions arise. > >1. Was there no Delmarva-Cape Charles pool #2 ? I found #1, 3, 4 , 5 & 6. >Cabin car # 982084 shows assigned to Delmarva-Cape Charles pool but no >number. > >2. Cabin # 981138 has no assignment. I do not know of the original source of this data, nor of its timeframe. I am trying to make a determination. I also noted that the cabins assigned to passenger service are not included, for whatever reason. > >3. Cabin cars # 981125 & 981128 are assigned to Norfolk, is this Norfolk, >Va.?? Would assume so, especially if in the Chesapeake Region. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] "View" Tower (fwd) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:11:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 844 Mark D Bej wrote: > You have it exactly. VIEW, as you may know, was partially destroyed in > a derailment (Penn Central, I believe?). Conrail, sometime in the mid-80s... not too terribly long before remote control of the former Middle Division came along. The derailment caused Conrail to equip the other remaining towers with escape ladders, just in case another train decided to go on it's own errant way. I remember a visit to the tower back about, oh, late 1980 -- it still had a fair amount of PRR hardware in it, like the first aid kit (!) and the brass C&S Department padlocks on the signal timers. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:20:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Loco. Painting/ I might be able to help! Content-Length: 1125 Neil & All, I am not sure you will find the information about the 1950s K-4s you are looking for. I do have a copy of "THE PAINTING OF P.R.R. LOCOMOTIVES AND TENDERS" Special Publication No. 1 by P.R.& I.A. (fore runnners of what has become th P.R.R.T.& H.S.) . The publication is eight pages total length, and describes paint color, comments by thr P.R.& I.A. Staff, cab roof colors and locomotive maintence instructions . There is even a drawing of an E-6 4-4-2 showing where the different colors were used. It untangles to a large degree the question about the colors seen on cab roofs. If you like I will make a copy and send it to you and anyone else who would like one. I am not in the publishing business and am not independently wealthy so please send a stamped self addressed envelop along to off-set my costs of mailing. Please e- mail me for my surface mail address. ED MARTIN ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:45:23 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfanning in Harrisburg Content-Length: 1390 Drye, John wrote: > Any suggestions from the group on the best railfanning spots in > Harrisburg? John, you might want to check out the State Street Bridge at the west end (north) of the HBG Station. While you won't be bothered on the bridge, watch where you park and feed the meters.You could also take a walk along the Derry Street Bridge at the east (south) end of the station. Also on the lower level of the station is a parking area - don't park here - which goes up against the former Northern Central bridge over the Susquehanna, now used as wye to turn Amtrak equipment. If something has come up the Port branch late it may be sitting across the tracks. Don't forget to visit the station and get permission to go to the GG1 and the cabin car. There are some other spots around but depending on your time of day the bridges will always give you a clear shot with good light (if its available) Wayne (The Cos) S. Betty > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLMower Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:23:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfanning in Harrisburg (fwd) Content-Length: 1222 In a message dated 98-03-30 12:56:28 EST, you write: << > Any suggestions from the group on the best railfanning spots in > Harrisburg? A while back, there was mention of a get-together at > Rockville Tower. How close to the tower can one get without running > into CR police? I was a local boy from '83 to '88. In my experience, you _might_ run into Conrail's finest if you drive into the wye where ROCKVILLE once stood. Depends on how reckless you are. You will almost certainly generate a visit if you walk any significant amount out onto the bridge. >> Hey Mark, Remember Rocko? =============================================== Actually some of the "legal" spots that come to mind are: Overview (bridge at west end of Enola) Rt 39 Bridge (just west of the piggyback yard) Marysville Passenger Station There are also numerous spots where Rt 11/15 parallel the mainline Camp Hill passenger station is a good spot on the RDG line to Shbg. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:26:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Frustrations Content-Length: 870 In a message dated 98-03-30 14:29:29 EST, Jerry Britton writes: << However, I cannot find 1/64" chart tape anywhere...and I have looked and looked. >> You guys panicked me, so I went to my local art store in Milwaukee. They carry Formaline, a product of the Graphic Products Coproration, Wheeling, IL 60090. bought one roll of 648 inches which should do 9 cars. They don't consider it a discontinued item. You might see if GPC have a dealer near you or contact them direct. If you need to, the dealer in Milwaukee is Artist and Display Supply Inc., 9015 W. Burleigh, Milwaukee, WI 414-442-9100. Price $3.10 per roll. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: [PRR] Re: Cabin cars in New Freedom, Pa. Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:46:19 -0500 Content-Length: 1237 Hello, This is to update some New Freedom, Pa. cabin car information: 1./ No PRR/ ex-PRR/ ex-PC/ ex-CR cabin cars are owned by the Northern Central Railway, in New Freedom, PA. 2./ Cabin car ( CR-23298 ) N8 Belongs to York County Rail / Trail Authority........it is to be restored and used as a Ranger Station and Displayed in New Freedom at the Restored Station. Once the restoration of the cabin car is completed, it will be turned over to York County Parks Dept. 3./ Cabin car ( CR-20043, ex-PC-22936, built 8/41 ) N5b Belongs to the York County Rail / Trail Authority.........it is to be restored after the N8 cabin car is completed. It will be used as a Ranger Station and Displayed along the Northern Central Railroad. ( Maybe at Smyser's Station ! ) Seven Valley's, Pa. 4./ The only cabin car in New Freedom painted for PRR, is the N5b owned by local resident Mr. Al Smith. PRR # 477707, it is stored on the New Freedom Station siding. Bill Knepper New Freedom, Pa. ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin roster Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:02:48 -0500 Content-Length: 837 Hello, Can anyone tell me the PRR numbers for the following: Cabin car: CR-23298 N8 PRR- 478_ _ _ ? This car was in pool service..... Cabin car: CR-20043 N5b (ex- PC 22936) PRR _ 477 _ _ _ ? This car was also in pool service. Any information will be greatly appreciated . These two cars will be restored and put on display.........We would like to display some history also. I will also be looking for some pictures when we have the cars ready for painting. Bill Knepper York County Rail / Trail Authority Station and Cabin Car Projects New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:15:40 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: [PRR] H'burg Railfanning Content-Length: 1066 I was part of a scouting trip this Sunday up to Harrisburg. While we were at the AMTRAK station, we watched the arrival of the Eastbound Three Rivers, Train 40. Power was 2 P32 Genesis. Then there were 4 Material handling Cars. One "old-style" (2 door) baggage-mail car. 5th MHC. Then Three more Baggage Mail cars - 2 new style - single door - sandwiching another 2 door Baggage-mail. These were followed by the (non-revenue?) cars. Sleeper 2891, Coach 25116, Coach 25001, Dinette 53508, Coach 25077, and coach 25124. Then there were FIVE Roadrailers on the back end. The first was painted in the AMTRAK logo and scheme. The other 4 were shiny white, with only black reporting marks. I guess the next step for AMTRAK would be to emulate PRR even more and start running mail/express trains. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:02:30 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] Staufer K4 & GG1 drawings Content-Length: 739 I just received a list of items for sale by the Lake Shore Railway Historical Society in North East, PA. Among the items are Staufer locomotive drawings. '35" x 14" black & white drawings on heavy, quality paper' of GG1 #4844 & K4 #5494 for $6 (shipping incl.) I ordered a K4, but haven't received it yet. They also have operating manuals for several current GE locomotives (the GE plant is about 12 miles away). If you'd like a list of what's available, let me know. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] "View" Tower (fwd) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:06:01 EST Content-Length: 907 > Mark D Bej wrote: > > You have it exactly. VIEW, as you may know, was partially destroyed in > > a derailment (Penn Central, I believe?). > > Conrail, sometime in the mid-80s... not too terribly long before > remote control of the former Middle Division came along. The > derailment caused Conrail to equip the other remaining towers with > escape ladders, just in case another train decided to go on it's own > errant way. Naahh, can't be. I was railfanning, collecting current ETTs, visiting every tower I could get in to, and very familiar with the area in the mid-80s. And I distinctly remember VIEW as gone. My bet is for 1981 at the _latest_. MAYbe 1982. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfanning in Harrisburg (fwd) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:15:19 EST Content-Length: 1269 Wayne (The Cos) S. Betty: > John, you might want to check out the State Street Bridge at the west end > (north) of the HBG Station. While you won't be bothered on the bridge, > watch where you park and feed the meters.You could also take a walk along > the Derry Street Bridge at the east (south) end of the station. Also on the > lower level of the station is a parking area - don't park here - which goes > up against the former Northern Central bridge over the Susquehanna, AHEM! :-) Cumberland Valley bridge over the Susquehanna. The NC bridge is no longer ... stood *north* of present Rockville Bridge. > now used > as wye to turn Amtrak equipment. If something has come up the Port branch > late it may be sitting across the tracks. Don't forget to visit the station > and get permission to go to the GG1 and the cabin car. There are some > other spots around but depending on your time of day the bridges will always > give you a clear shot with good light (if its available) > -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] P2K DGLE E7B Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:54:40 -0600 Content-Length: 441 To anyone still loooking for P2K DGLE/Brunswick Green E7 B-units: Try Mainline Hobby Supply in Blue Ridge Summit, PA. (717) 794-2860. A friend got one there last week; there were more in stock. Happy hunting! Steve Hoxie ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:21:04 EST Subject: [PRR] Railfanning Harrisburg Content-Length: 636 John, Good shots of Rockville bridge can be found on both banks of the river. For good action shots, I suggest heading toward Duncannon on west bank, as this line has a fair amount of action. An ex Reading line runs east out of Harrisburg also has good spots. There are lots of public places to photograph the trains. Don't overlook The Harrisburg Station (Amtrak). GG1 4859 is displayed there. Hope this helps Steve ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SPF Database Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 06:17:22 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1226 Remember when we discussed putting together an online directory of ourselves? I am working on it. Question: Should this directory be publicly linked via "Keystone Crossings" or have a URL that is only available on the "PRR-Talk" list? Below are the fields I am currently planning, any suggested additions? ALL FIELDS ARE OPTIONAL: First name Last name E-mail address Occupation Employer Address City State Zip <- will eventually link with MapQuest Home page URL PRR page URL Layout page URL Photo URL <- you can place a photo of yourself on your own site Interests/Notes Each user, when they create their own record, will enter a user name and password -- which the server will confirm via e-mail -- that will be required to edit/delete the record later. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: Champ Decals Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 06:21:26 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 677 It's time for another "Champ Decal Sale"! Just like last time...20% off all Champ decals and products. See htp://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html All paid orders must be received by April 30 for a collective order to be submitted on May 1. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Database Improvements Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 09:13:01 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 856 Though not thoroughly tested, I have made some improvements to the Cabin Car database. The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html You can now search on the "division assignment" field. This was suggested by Harold McGhee. There are now user selectable field operands, such as: starts with does not start with contains is equal to is greater than is greater than or equal to is less than is less than or equal to --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Diesel Database Improvements Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 09:17:06 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 767 Though not thoroughly tested, I have made some improvements to the Diesel Locomotive database. The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/databases.html There are now user selectable field operands, such as: starts with does not start with contains is equal to is greater than is greater than or equal to is less than is less than or equal to --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SPF database Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 10:40:56 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1002 The SPF database will be private to "PRR-Talkers". That is, the URL will be distributed via the list, and not linked to "Keystone Crossings". However, short of using a password for the whole system, the URL could certainly be passed on. I'm not going to lose sleep over that. Anyway, progress is coming along well and I may have it online by the end of the day. I have successfully added and deleted records, performed searches, etc. A few GUI issues remain to be ironed out. In addition to those mentioned earlier, I have added fields for Birth Year and Computer Type. Stay tuned! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:36:36 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Towers/list of all remaining PRR stuctures Content-Length: 1172 Hi all: Taking this tower thing one step further, I am an avid tower nut, and have a decent sized collection of PRR and former PRR tower slides/prints. Am always looking for more, though. Especially Pittsburgh-Colombus-St. Louis and Colombus-Chicago. I would be willing to buy or trade (have towers/depots from most northeast rr's, plus a good mix of GG1/E44/E33/Metroliner action from 1977-1981). If anyone has anyting, I will be happy to respond. Still kicking myself for not shooting WA5, WA6, Wye, Harsimus Cove yard office, and a whole bunch more! After CR got rid of the electrics, the only real trace of the PRR here in NJ was the towers/signal bridges, etc. On another note, I would be happy to compile a list of all remaining PRR depots/towers/yard offices, etc. I would guess I've shot 90% plus of all that is left, but there are always those moved or hidden away ones that I've missed! Frank Garon still missing the GG1! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:12:41 -0600 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain F Units Content-Length: 607 Date: 03/30/1998 10:10 pm (Monday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL:"prr-talk@dsop.com" Subject: Intermountain F Units Intermountain has announced that they will be doing F units later this year. First releases due in November. They will be offering everything from undec shells to complete rtr DCC ready painted units. Will be doing everything from F2 through F9. Price TBA. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:40:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg track Content-Length: 751 Hi all, Question on PRR line. The bridge that crosses the Susquehanna and is immediatly north of the large Reading bridge in Harrisburg, where did that line go to? I assume track west of bridge is no longer used, if so when was it last used? The track on the west end of bridge is wye for Northern Central and Reading? One last question, what is bridge used for today? Does Amtrak use it for wye? I noticed catenary only goes halfway out. Does Conrail use it?If anyone can explain this area, it would be appreciated. Thanks. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:52:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg track Content-Length: 1140 On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, STEVEGG1 wrote: > Hi all, > Question on PRR line. The bridge that crosses the Susquehanna and is > immediatly north of the large Reading bridge in Harrisburg, where did that > line go to? I assume track west of bridge is no longer used, if so when was it > last used? The track on the west end of bridge is wye for Northern Central and > Reading? One last question, what is bridge used for today? Does Amtrak use it > for wye? I noticed catenary only goes halfway out. Does Conrail use it?If > anyone can explain this area, it would be appreciated. Presumably you speak of the Cumberland Valley bridge. The catenary goes only halfway out from the east end, correct? The Railpace guide to railfanning Harrisburg I picked up a while back showed that they still used the bridge as a leg of a wye for turning trains; Presumably that's all the wire that they needed for that purpose. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg track Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 14:10:57 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 3341 On 3/31/98 2:40 PM, STEVEGG1 (STEVEGG1@aol.com) wrote: >Question on PRR line. The bridge that crosses the Susquehanna and is >immediatly north of the large Reading bridge in Harrisburg, where did that >line go to? I assume track west of bridge is no longer used, if so when >was it >last used? The track on the west end of bridge is wye for Northern Central >and >Reading? One last question, what is bridge used for today? Does Amtrak use it >for wye? I noticed catenary only goes halfway out. Does Conrail use it?If >anyone can explain this area, it would be appreciated. The bridge was built by the Cumberland Valley RR, later the Cumberland Valley branch of the PRR. Its terminus was at the east end of the bridge, at the Harrisburg passenger station, where there is a wye. To the west, it continues onward to Carlisle, Shippensburg, etc. The Northern Central Railway, when building north from York on the west side of the river, needed to get passengers to Harrisburg. They contracted with the Cumberland Valley to use their bridge rather than building a new one. A curved bridge connects the north/south NCR line with the east/west CV bridge. Note that NCRy freights continued north on the west side of the river. The NCRy r-o-w continued northward on the west side of the river to Marysville, where it crossed to the east and continued northward, via a wooden and partially covered bridge. It met the PRR's mainline at Marysville via a dangerous crossing at grade. There was a yard at this location. (The PRR crossed the river just south of this location via the first and second Rockville Bridges.) NCRy passenger trains, which had crossed to Harrisburg back at the CV bridge, continued north on PRR tracks, crossed the Rockville Bridge to the west side of the river, then "re-crossed" to the east via the NCRy bridge to continue north!!! In 190x, the PRR and the Northern Central Ry cooperatively built the third (current) Rockville Bridge for joint use. This eliminated two old bridges and a dangerous grade crossing. The NCRy also connected the rails on the east side from the Rockville Bridge to its current east side terminus, so that the double-crossing was no longer needed. At the same time, the Enola Yards were built (on NCRy r-o-w) as a joint yard. This shut down the smaller Marysville Yard. The tracks on the CV bridge were pulled 10+ years ago. There is only enough track & juice on the east end so that Philly<->Harrisburg trains can turn on the wye. The City of Harrisburg, however, is developing a light rail system and this bridge would likely see reutilization so that commuters from the west could reach downtown. As for the CV, it is still active for freight service from Enola. The crossings with the former NCRy at Lemoyne are long gone. This was the site of LEMO tower which now stands restored at the Strasburg Railroad. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] PRR Towers/list of all remaining PRR stuctures (fwd) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:11:47 EST Content-Length: 535 > Taking this tower thing one step further, I am an avid tower nut, and have a > decent sized collection of PRR and former PRR tower slides/prints. Am always > looking for more, though. Especially Pittsburgh-Colombus-St. Louis and > Colombus-Chicago. Jon Roma maintains a list of active towers on the WWW. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg track (fwd) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:44:18 EST Content-Length: 1752 Steve, > Question on PRR line. The bridge that crosses the Susquehanna and is > immediatly north of the large Reading bridge in Harrisburg, where did that > line go to? That is the bridge of the former Cumberland Valley Railroad, absorbed into the PRR in 1919. Track runs to Lemoyne, Camp Hill, Mechanicsburg, Carlisle, SHippensburg, Chambersburg, Hagerstown, Martinsburg, and Winchester. > I assume track west of bridge is no longer used, if so when was it > last used? Track _on_ bridge is cut. From west side, track in place to MP 21 south of Carlisle. Cut to about MP 43, Shippensburg. In place from RDG connection all the way to _almost_ original end of track, though crossing at HAGER is gone. > The track on the west end of bridge is wye for Northern Central and > Reading? former Northern Central only. Connection to RDG in Camp Hill is via reverse 'crossover' piece of track thing. > One last question, what is bridge used for today? Only to wye AMTK equipment on the eastern end. Nothing for most of its length. Presumably the (proposed) Carlisle commuter trains would use it again. > I noticed catenary only goes halfway out. Does Conrail use it? Catenary used to go whole way across, across diamond, and partway into Lemoyne. > Ifanyone can explain this area, it would be appreciated. Hope the above helps. Full set of maps available under http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/itlk_phl_har_branch.html and skip on down to Cumberland Valley Branch. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:05:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Towers/list of all remaining PRR stuctures Content-Length: 1951 Fellow SPF'ers Just got my lastest roll of film back from the processor. On it is a shot of the Panhandle depot at London. After nearly a decade of seeing nothing but weeds where the Columbus Division double-tracked mainline once ran it was nice to see a section looking as it should be (even if it is only a double-tracked local switching line). I'm partiularly fond of a shot to the east over the Big Four diamonds showing a signal bridge just east of the station. Southbound Conrail traffic uses the Panhandle right-of-way to this point. It heads west from London on the NYC line (nee-Big Four) that runs on the north side of the depot. After the MERGER, this will be Norfolk Southern territory. Rumor has it that NS is considering double tracking the entire Columbus-Cincinnati line. Most of the line west of Springfield has been double-tracked and, as it follows the valleys of the Mad River and Great Miami River, has a much gentler grade than either the PCCStL's Columbus-Cincinnati or Columbus-Dayton mainlines. This double-tracking project may resurrect more of the Panhandle main. >From the London depot to the western edge of London, the NYC tracks follow a narrow, urban right-of-way that appears to be one car wide as it weaves in and oujt between buildings. The easy solution would be to follow the PCC&StL r-o-w to west of town and then swinbg north to the NYC r-o-w for the run to Springfield. Now for the good news. The London depot's current use is as a banquet hall. I feel the need to schedule a Central Ohio SPF get-together... I'll be sending the shot to Don West in Kent, Ohio, for posting on his Ohio Railroad Depot web site at w3.gwis.com/~west/exist.htm Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doc Morrow Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:43:20 EST Subject: [PRR] magazines Content-Length: 496 Hello to all, I have 112 issues of MAINLINE MODELER for sale ,all early issues.$130 for the lot. postage paid. Also 105 issues of TRAINS befor 1974all years complete execpt69,missingJUNE,NOV. and DEC. 1966 missing JULY and DEC. $50.00 for the lot, plus postage. Dave Morrow ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:21:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Database Improvements/Outstanding Job! Content-Length: 785 Jerry and All, Well I don't know about all that mumbo jumbo but what I saw was OUTSTANDING! You all need to check this out! This is the most useful information I have gotten off any website in the nine months I've had this computer. Jerry Thank You and whoever you are working with for this information. In the past my experiance with Pennsy fans was they didn't share unless you could pay. You guys have all restored my faith in my fellow (PRR) modeler. Thanks Jerry and all of you who learned at a very young age it is better to share! Ed Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: [PRR] Re: Cabin cars in New Freedom, Pa. Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:32:31 -0500 Content-Length: 1816 FLASH>>>>>> Thanks to Ken McCorry and Tom Mahon for there help in finding the correct PRR numbers for the New Freedom Cabin cars..... They are as follows: N8 ex-CR #23298 is PRR #478160 built 2/51 N5b ex-CR#20043 is PRR # 477797 built 8/41 (ex- PC#22936) Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Bill Knepper > To: Mark D Bej ; PRR-Talk ; Jerry > Subject: Re: Cabin cars in New Freedom, Pa. > Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 9:46 PM > > Hello, > This is to update some New Freedom, Pa. cabin car information: > 1./ No PRR/ ex-PRR/ ex-PC/ ex-CR cabin cars are owned by the Northern > Central Railway, in New Freedom, PA. > 2./ Cabin car ( CR-23298 ) N8 Belongs to York County Rail / Trail > Authority........it is to be restored and used as a Ranger Station and > Displayed in New Freedom at the Restored Station. Once the restoration of > the cabin car is completed, it will be turned over to York County Parks > Dept. > 3./ Cabin car ( CR-20043, ex-PC-22936, built 8/41 ) N5b Belongs to the > York County Rail / Trail Authority.........it is to be restored after the > N8 cabin car is completed. It will be used as a Ranger Station and > Displayed along the Northern Central Railroad. ( Maybe at Smyser's Station > ! ) Seven Valley's, Pa. > 4./ The only cabin car in New Freedom painted for PRR, is the N5b owned by > local resident Mr. Al Smith. PRR # 477707, it is stored on the New > Freedom Station siding. > > Bill Knepper > New Freedom, Pa. > > ---------- > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:52:49 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg track Content-Length: 792 Jerry_Britton wrote: > The bridge was built by the Cumberland Valley RR, later the Cumberland > Valley branch of the PRR. Its terminus was at the east end of the bridge, > at the Harrisburg passenger station, where there is a wye. There is a wye NOW. Remember that this did not exist in PRR days. It was added by Penn Central as an emergency measure in 1972 after the Agnes flood knocked out the Shocks Mill bridge on the Enola Branch, to allow freights to move to/from Enola via the passenger main line/Royalton Branch. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:05:59 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman hoppers Content-Length: 1456 KEMACPRR wrote: > > Any late PRR modelers out there might want to take a look at the new 100 ton > H-43a hoppers offered by Bachman. I picked up a six pak two weeks ago at a > GATS meet and am very impressed with what I got. Metal wheels which are > concentric and in gauge. Mc Henry couplers with screw mountings so you can > easily change to what ever brand you like. Weights concealed behind the slope > sheets like the Bowser. Slope sheet braces installed and interior braces to be > installed by you. The painting and lettering is crisp much better than the > Bowser versions the only thing possibly wrong is the road numbers on side of > car might be a tad small but the yellow ball is sharp and solid. I saw road > names of PRR,RDG (speed lettering) CR, N&W, and WM in the gray stone scheme. > Quite a shoch for a Bachman product but nice to see. Ken McCorry > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Greetings, Pray tell, what is Bachmann's product number(s) so we can identify them if no photo accompanies somebody's ad? Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!