From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:13:00 EST Subject: Re: PRR-electrics (was Odd PRR Power) Content-Length: 802 In a message dated 98-01-29 16:21:34 EST, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > the 1975/6 EMD >tests were partly to explore the feasibility of continuing the wires WEST Remember the "energy crisis"? Gas lines, gas stations running out, farewell to the $0.35 gallon...... This happened in the mid-70's, and I think this testing may have been a result of Conrail's fears concerning unavailability of diesel fuel. Once fuel became plentiful (albeit at much higher cost), we didn't hear much more about electrification of freight lines. Maybe just a coincidence.... Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New products -- inc. P2K PA1 in PRR! Date: Sun, 1 Feb 98 09:53:27 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1591 NEW ANNOUNCEMENTS: Proto-2000 has announced the road names for the second run of the PA-1 and PB-1 locomotives. These are scheduled to ship in May. PA-1 Powered Loco $100 * Pennsylvania (#5754A & #5755A) Brunswick Green 5 Stripe PB-1 Dummy Loco $45 * Pennsylvania (#5754B & #5756B) (Someone want to check the road numbers and confirm that they were delivered in DGLE?) REMINDERS: Proto-2000 has announced the road names for the fourth run of the E-7A and E-7B locomotives. As far as quantities, we quote from the Life-Like release letter. "Due to component availability these locomotives will be even more Ślimitedą run than normal". E-7A Powered Locomotives * PRR (#5841A & #5848A) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes E-7B Dummy Locomotive * PRR (#5844B & #5853B) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes Delivery is scheduled for February. Prices will be $90.00 per E-7A and $45.00 per E-7B. RUMORS: * The next Proto-2000 Diesel Loco will be a GP-20; an E6 may be planned as well. * We have heard that a Large, Automotive Manufacturing Facility will be released during 1999. (Could this be Walther's theme for 1999?) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: OOOPS! I meant HOPPERS! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 10:07:52 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1722 On 28 Jan, SUVCW ORR wrote: > The H31a was a one of a kind car number 249990. The H31b were the composite > cars of mass production -- 500 cars numbered 220842-221341. Beginning in 1952 > the H31b were rebuilt as steel cars and classes H31c without changing the car > number.. There were still 3 H31b class cars on the final PRR roster. > > H31 IL 31 6 IW 9 9 OL 32 9 EXT W 10 5 CUFT 1859 > H31a IL 31 6 IW 9 4 OL 32 9 EXT W 10 5 CUFT 1911 > H31b IL 31 1 IW 9 4 OL 32 9 EXT W 10 5 CUFT 1738 > H31c IL 31 5 IW 9 8 OL 32 9 EXT W 10 5 CUFT 1854 > > The angle of the slope sheet is differnt on the H31a and H31b. The H31a slope > sheet is wood. The H31b slope sheet is steel. At a guess from the dimensions above, the H31 and H31b slope sheets are at the same angle? The end result of all of this, regarding MT hoppers as PRR prototypes, it would appear that the 56000 body style makes a good H31, the 57000 makes a good H31b, and if you puttied in the seams on the 57000, or added diagonal braces to the 56000, it would make a good H31c. I have six unique road numbers of MT-produced H31s, but I haven't seen any cars lettered as H31b. Of course, my information is incomplete. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 10:05:13 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Was Wrong about train 509 Content-Length: 627 Greetings to the group, I had previously mentioned that I thought that train 509 might have been a Sunday only version of the Penn-Lehigh Express. Apparently I was wrong. I couldn't find a train 509 running on the Penn-Lehigh Express schedule in a public TT from 1924 or an employee TT from 1931. hopefully someone else was able to supply the information concerning train 509. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 11:56:29 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 670 Maybe I am the last one on earth to notice this, but in passing through Philly on Metroliner 114 on Friday we passed a SEPTA train, and one of the cars was a Silverliner clearly lettered P E N N S Y L V A N I A How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's apparent indifference to its corporate image! John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: fwd: MT H31 FS Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:02:15 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1658 There is one of the MT H31 hoppers we've been discussing along with three boxcars advertised for sale on the N-scale mailing list. I've snipped out the non-PRR portion of the posting to conform to what I think are the PRR_Talk rules. The 20000 series is a 40' single door boxcar, but I don't know the PRR class they're painted for. Dennis ------- Forwarded Message Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 07:41:12 -0700 To: n-scale@lists.Stanford.EDU From: ceg@humboldt1.com (Jim Laney) Subject: [N] MT FS Hello- I'm having a moving sale! I have the following steam-era MT cars for sale. Most of the items are in mint condition. All others except GN 2538 have been lightly dusted with chalks for display. All cars are in original packaging and are unrun. Buyer pays shipping. series road # cond. price 56060 PRR 220455 mint $12 Al's Kustom 118 PRR 71065 mint $18 Al's Kustom 119 PRR 71416 mint $18 Al's Kustom 120 PRR 71419 mint $18 (These are 20000 series cars) Please email if you're interested, and thanks for looking at this. Jim Laney an N&W modeler ************************************************* If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send the message body of "unsubscribe n-scale" to majordomo@lists.stanford.edu ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:13:15 EST Subject: Re: New products -- inc. P2K PA1 in PRR! Content-Length: 1337 Jerry and all, The ALCo P A/B-1 were all received on the property in 1948 -49 and classed AP-3 then later changed to class AP-20 and then the A units were finely reclassed AFP-20. The B units remained in pasenger service and could often be seen spliced between two E-7's. They were all delivered in DGLE with 5 gold leaf stripes and were repainted in Tuscan Red and Dulux Gold stripes in about 1954 when the number boards were changed. The nose Keystone was changed with the PRR in the center deleting the engine numbers. At the same time the engines got new number boards and lost their coupler covers and I believe got the turbo charger modifaction. It is interesting that Pennsy did not equip their passenger units with Dynamic braking for a railroad with such tough grades and so much passenger traffic it is a wonder why they felt that this was not needed. BTW the ALCo nickname for this locomotive was the "Greyhound" and the F A/B's were the "Mastadon" strangely fitting. I love that smoke!!!! Watch for my article in Mainline Modeler. From Lines way out West Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:20:17 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Anyone have a track chart showing Cresson? Content-Length: 1339 Jerry and the group, According to Conrail's 1985 Central region, Allegheny Division Track Chart, the grade through Cresson including MO is 1.05%. Heading east is up hill. Heading west is down hill. The 1.05% begins a MP 249.03 which is just east of the Rt 53 overpass. It changes to .04% at MP 260.0, a bit west of Portage. John Cooper is also correct with his information from the 1950 track charts. the "Comp. Ruling Grade" of 1.56% east bound and 2.10% west bound over the hill takes into consideration the effects of the additional friction caused by the curves and is what the equalivelant grade on straight track would be. Apparently the grade was smoothed out over the years on the west side of the hill to a nice steady 1.05% between the points noted above by 1985. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 02:39 PM 1/30/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >Does anyone have a track chart showing Cresson, Pa.? > >In preparation for building a PRRMO module, I'd like to know the ruling >grade through Cresson. Specifically, through the interlocking plant at MO >tower. > >Please quote source. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:09:38 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: fwd: MT H31 FS Content-Length: 2039 Hi Dennis and all, Dennis, I'm surprised that you didn't immediately order it. I did and maybe I'll be lucky enough to get it. It is a number that I don't have yet. So this brings up some questions that are N-Scale specific: Dennis, you say that you currently have 6 different numbers. Would that be the original 5-pk plus a possible single car released at that time? Would the one for sale be the single released way back then? I have 6 numbers, not including the number for sale on the N-List. Do you have the "Buy War Bonds" one released some time within the last year or so? Oops, hold on a sec. I just dug out my "Buy War Bonds" hopper and it is actually a single-sheathed (outside-braced car). Can't verify accuracy of lettering as my resources don't go back into the Circle Keystone era yet. Can we Pennsy N-Scalers compile a list of the available numbers of all MT's painted for Pennsy and verify lettering accuracy? I'll list the ones in my fleet and post them shortly unless someone can refer me to a site where this info already exists. Unless I'm mistaken, Keystone Crossings, as well as Mark B.'s and Rob S.'s sites deal only with HO. I have asked my supplier to check into a bulk purchase of MT 56000's and 57000's for me as I can't see buying them one at a time at $10.00+ ea. I need at least 3 or 4 hundred and if anyone is interested in joining in we might be able to get a reasonable unit price. IF MT will sell them in large quantities undecorated. I know that MT requires about a 300 car minimum for special runs but I've been told that they won't decorate any cars for anyone in proto schemes they are reserving for themselves. Anyway, it's worth a shot. Thoughts? One last shot: I did get the MT hopper for sale on the N-Scale list. Wow! Keep on Trackin' Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:09:07 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/01/98 Content-Length: 865 > > > Personally I would prefer the resin kit as opposed to the brass wrapper, > only because I'm more comfortable working with plastic & resin then with > brass. > > Joe > ---------- Let me pass along a "me-too" on this...not because I don't like working with brass, but photoetching the rivets usually leaves them looking like buttons (round and flat) In reality, most rivets were either conical or semi-spherical in cross-section. And, yes, I would rather work with resin. Another question... > What class is the Jubilee, possibly a 2-4-2.? > A jubilee was Canadian Pacific for a 4-4-4. (see PRR class O-1) Bill Daniels ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: GLa, H31, MT comparison Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 15:24:11 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1839 The baby's asleep, so I finally dug out my copy of the Teichmoeller and Fisher hopper articles (thanks, Andy!), a Micro-Trains 56000 series hopper, and a scale rule, so here's a comparison table of the three hoppers. sills inside truck ex width in width height GLa 32'3 30'5 22'3 10'1 3/8 9'6 10' H31 32'9 31'6 22'9 10'6 1/8 9'9 10'3 7/8 MT 56000 33'6 32' 23'6 10'6 9'3 10'6 So the gross dimensions are, IMHO, close enough for N Scale (somebody will flame me for that :-). The Fisher article didn't include the height of the H31 end (the vertical part they paint reporting marks on), so I can't compare them; this would be where slope-sheet angles would show up. The MT car measures at 3', the GLa is 2'6 on the diagram. The slope-sheet angle would also affect there the bottom of the hopper is; on the H31 this was directly under the 3d and 5th rib, on the GLa and MT, the rib is over the hopper door. You win some, you lose some. As Claus pointed out, the GLa had a vertical brakewheel stem, but the H31 had the later gearbox on the car end; the MT hopper matches the H31 in this regard. Somebody (Ron?) asked if these hoppers made it to the black paint scheme; the Fisher Keystone article on H31s shows both H31 and H31c hoppers in black (plain keystone, gothic lettering). Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:42:56 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 2020 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > Maybe I am the last one on earth to notice this, but > in passing through Philly on Metroliner 114 on Friday > we passed a SEPTA train, and one of the cars was a > Silverliner clearly lettered > > P E N N S Y L V A N I A > > How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed > my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock > in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's > apparent indifference to its corporate image! > > John Bobsin > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". John & list members, That SEPTA car you saw with PENNSYLVANIA in the letterboard I'm told is a "reprint". I used to know a few SEPTA Regional Rail Division employees when I lived back there a few years ago. I asked them about it when I first saw one of those cars and was told it was because SEPTA greatfully bowed to many requests from PRR fans, etc., etc., to put back the old Pennsy name on some of the cars they inherited from the PRR as a bit of historical/nostalgia/don't-want-to-let-go-of-the-Pennsy heritage feeling among employees, and long-time riders. Soooo-o-o-o-o, they put it back on at least one of the cars (don't know if more were done or planned) and it's been there ever since. Even though I don't live there any more, I applaud SEPTA's agreement to do this and would like to see more. Gee, wouldn't it be great to see a couple of MP-54's plying the suburban rails again, maybe retrofitted with some air conditioning to cope with the humid summer heat, that is hidden so it wouldn't spoil the original lines of the cars. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Greenville 100t 15 panel hoppers Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 13:03:45 PST Content-Length: 426 Does anyone know if the PRR owned any Greenville 15 panel 100 ton hoppers? Number? Class? Kevin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 13:14:27 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: MT PRR Models (was H31) Content-Length: 1206 Greetings, There's been some discussion about Micro-Trains cars in PRR paint on the list recently. MT has done a lot of Pennsy cars, not to be at all confused with the ones sold by Al's Kustom Kars. I"ve heard Al buys MT cars whereever he can get them, strips them and has them repainted and printed. It's true that MT won't do a special run in a 100% prototype paint scheme for anyone (I have one of their pamphlets explaining their program). MT's most recent one was released 1-1-98; product #105020, a 14-panel fixed end gondola, class G31D, road #376611. Other recent PRR cars have been the 50" single door box car in green, as received from GAEX when they sold off their "DF" (Damage Free") fleet to a number of railroads. MT product #31270, Road #PRR47172. Also, another was MT product #78010 released in Nov '96. It's a class X41 50' double door auto box car with end doors, road #82023. There're are quite a few true MT Pennsy cars out there. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: fwd: MT H31 FS Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 16:29:59 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 2940 On 1 Feb, Ron Dugas wrote: > Dennis, I'm surprised that you didn't immediately order it. I did and > maybe I'll be lucky enough to get it. It is a number that I don't have > yet. I would have, except I got one at Springfield yesterday, at 20% off list. It really paid off to rummage through the bins at Tucker's, especially since the UMTRR listed that car as discontinued in 1996. This car does have end numbers, and the paint is quite a bit sharper than the five-car set. > Dennis, you say that you currently have 6 different numbers. Would that be > the original 5-pk plus a possible single car released at that time? The five-pack plus the car I got yesterday. I don't know when the five-pack was released. > I have 6 numbers, > not including the number for sale on the N-List. Do you have the "Buy War > Bonds" one released some time within the last year or so? Oops, hold on a > sec. I just dug out my "Buy War Bonds" hopper and it is actually a > single-sheathed (outside-braced car). Can't verify accuracy of lettering > as my resources don't go back into the Circle Keystone era yet. So it's a 57000 car? Is it lettered H31b, like it should be? The lettering should match the five-pack, except for avoiding the diagonal braces (P\ENN|S\YLV|ANI/A), the car number (with a / in the middle), dimensions, and it should say H31b where your other five cars say H31. Please send the number; I'll keep my eyes peeled for that one. > Can we Pennsy N-Scalers compile a list of the available numbers of all > MT's painted for Pennsy and verify lettering accuracy? I'll list the ones > in my fleet and post them shortly unless someone can refer me to a site > where this info already exists. Unless I'm mistaken, Keystone Crossings, > as well as Mark B.'s and Rob S.'s sites deal only with HO. I have a small compendium of N Scale PRR models at http://www.tiac.net/users/pam/dennis/prr/. Some of the links have expired (Atlas rearranged their web pages), and is otherwise a bit out of date. I'll be more than happy to update it, expand it, and keep it more up to date. > I have asked my supplier to check into a bulk purchase of MT 56000's and > 57000's for me as I can't see buying them one at a time at $10.00+ ea. I'm in for 20-30 of each, more if you can get them w/o trucks (I body-mount, even MT cars). > One last shot: I did get the MT hopper for sale on the N-Scale list. Wow! Congratulations! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:02:23 -0500 Content-Length: 2097 Anybody out there remember those deathless rhymes like: "there is nothing quite so holy as a local train to Paoli" or "there is no greater piece of junk than the local train to Manayunk" and "Old Maids never wed...", the rhyme to remember the order of the Main Line stations (Overbrook-Merion-Narbeth-Wynnewood..." There was a whole bunch of 'em but I can't recall them all. That was the Filthadelphia and PRR I remember when trains ran on branches and not routes. Hey, the red cars were older than dirt when they were taken out of service but a generation that grew up on Pioneers and Silverliners and Comets doesn't remember that what made the red cars bearable was the fact that you could open a window! Made Complete Richard F. Makse Twinney Pond Associates maxrail@worldnet.att.net >That SEPTA car you saw with PENNSYLVANIA in the letterboard I'm told is >a "reprint". I used to know a few SEPTA Regional Rail Division >employees when I lived back there a few years ago. I asked them about >it when I first saw one of those cars and was told it was because SEPTA >greatfully bowed to many requests from PRR fans, etc., etc., to put back >the old Pennsy name on some of the cars they inherited from the PRR as a >bit of historical/nostalgia/don't-want-to-let-go-of-the-Pennsy heritage >feeling among employees, and long-time riders. > >Soooo-o-o-o-o, they put it back on at least one of the cars (don't know >if more were done or planned) and it's been there ever since. Even >though I don't live there any more, I applaud SEPTA's agreement to do >this and would like to see more. > >Gee, wouldn't it be great to see a couple of MP-54's plying the suburban >rails again, maybe retrofitted with some air conditioning to cope with >the humid summer heat, that is hidden so it wouldn't spoil the original >lines of the cars. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 22:00:50 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1211 "Nothing quite as holy as a local to Paoli" I believe owes its existence to the numerous Pennsy executives who lived along the Main Line, thus no dispatcher would dare delay their journey home. Even today I suspect Amtrak Nos. 640 and 642 take on their share of employees enroute to 30th Street from Paoli and Ardmore. I've ridden Metroliner 101 in from NJ twice in recent weeks, and lots of folks get on at Princeton Junction and Trenton for 30th Street, murmuring their destinations to the conductor, so you know they have passes. The Paoli Local concept lives on! Yes, wouldn't it be neat to have some MP-54s running; I'll never forget the groan they made, at least in later years, on startup. BTW are there any recordings of the whistles on LIRR "Ping-Pong" MUs? Were these common to the rest of the Pennsy family? The "cracking" of their voices was like a bad bagpiper. Unforgettable. Anyway glad to hear that SEPTA has some commitment to the heritage. John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 00:11:09 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: "Modern Power for Today's Trains" Content-Length: 519 > The booklet was printed fairly early on in the PRR's dieselification when the PRR thought of lashups of locomotives as being one locomotive (mainly to appease the unions.) Earlier versions of this booklet exist from BEFORE the dieselization period. Known prior dates are 1939 and 1926. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:41:07 EST Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Content-Length: 868 In a message dated 98-02-01 00:08:59 EST, NKLoudon@compuserve.com writes: >P5 electrics had a 2-6-6-2 wheel arrangement. My upbringing was to use letters for driving wheels on electrics. Hence the P5's would have been 2-C-C-2. >Questions: Class R 4-8-4 ? I thought PRR shunned this wheel arrangement. Only for steam engines. The R-1 (4-D-4) was an experimental electric (just one built), which lost out to the GG-1 type when they built their fleet. >Also: 2-10-2 listed as "Jubilee" type. I had only associated this name >with CPR 4-4-4's. Isn't there another designation ? I have always used "Santa Fe" type for 2-10-2's. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:05:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: MT H31's (semi-long) Content-Length: 3348 Hi All, Dennis wrote: > ...I don't know when the five-pack was released. I'm not sure either but the boxes still say Kadee on them and I've had them for quite a while (at least 10 years?). > So it's a 57000 car? Is it lettered H31b, like it should > be? The lettering should match the five-pack, except for > avoiding the diagonal braces (P\ENN|S\YLV|ANI/A), the car > number (with a / in the middle), dimensions, and it should > say H31b where your other five cars say H31. Yes, it is 57100 to be exact. It is lettered H31B (Capitol B instead of lower case). B is approx. half the height of H31. The lettering is as you describe except that the brace that splits the road number goes the other direction: 220\877. In ASCII-(Definately not to scale): H31B- _____________________________________________ | | | \ BUY | \ WAR |BONDS/ | / | |__| | | | P\ ENN|S \ YLV|ANI /A | ck / | | | |__| | \ |220\877| / | / | |__| | | | \ |****\ | / | / | | | |__| | \ |**** \ | / | / ****| |__| | | | \|**** \|/******|/ H31B| |__| |~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~| | | |~| ~~~ ~~~ ck=Circle Keystone *=Small Lettering Lines above road name and below road number. Note stirrup and ladder differences. > Please send the number; I'll keep my eyes peeled for that one. MT number and road number above. Someone stated they thought this may be a special run by Al's Custom Cars? I don't believe so since it has an MT label and number. I believe that it was Rich Orr that stated that there were still three H31B's extant on PRR's last roster. Could I get the road number of those three cars? The 1953 ORER reprint shows 266 H31B's still on the roster. Great news for me! I love those hoppers. So where and how were they used in the 1939-1959 period? Revenue, MOW or ? Dennis stated: ..., and if you puttied in the seams on the 57000, or added diagonal braces to the 56000, it would make a good H31c. Except that the 56000 has seven vertical ribs and the H31C had five. ASCII: H31- ___________________________________________ | | | | | | | | __| | PE|NNSY|LVAN|IA | | | | | |__ | 220|573 | | | | ck | __| | | ***|*** | | |****| | | | |_____| ***|*** | | |****| | |__| | | ***|*** |****| |*H31|****| |__| |~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~| | | |~| ~~~ ~~~ ck=Circle Keystone *=Small Lettering Lines above road name and below road number. Note stirrup and ladder differences. Well, ASCII doesn't do too bad for PRR hoppers. Will do Gons next. BTW, Dennis, My 5-pack has the following road numbers. Agree with yours?: PRR 220156 PRR 220301 PRR 220538 PRR 220573 PRR 220819 Better close for now. See you tomorrow, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:04:55 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Content-Length: 1300 ---PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-01 00:08:59 EST, NKLoudon@compuserve.com writes: > > >P5 electrics had a 2-6-6-2 wheel arrangement. > My upbringing was to use letters for driving wheels on electrics. Hence > the P5's would have been 2-C-C-2. If one counts wheels, count wheels; if counting axles, count axles. 2-6-6-2 = 1-C-C-1, not 2-C-C-2 But, the P5 was a 4-6-4 (or 2-C-2) 2-6+6-2 was class FF, of which there were two: The original "Big Liz" (FF-1) which could and often did pull out any coupler then made. The 6 or 7 locomotives (FF-2) aquired from the Great Northern when they closed down their electrification. Bob Netzlof > > Rich Copeland > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:42:53 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1506 >Anybody out there remember those deathless rhymes like: >"Old Maids never wed...", the rhyme to remember the order of the Main Line >stations (Overbrook-Merion-Narbeth-Wynnewood..." "...and have babes rarely" (Ardmore-Haverford-Bryn Mawr-Radnor) This was the first thing I was taught as a freshman at Haverford College (1980), so I could find my home stop after a rowdy night of frat parties in Philly at U Penn, Drexel, Temple etc!!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Test post to check date (fwd) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:03:58 EST Content-Length: 443 > Sorry to interrupt, but the last few posts I received from the listserv > are dated 1/1/2000. Just checking the source. ^^^^ That's one server with no year-2K problem down, 10,000,000 to go... :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Request (was: PRR-Talk Digest) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:20:40 EST Content-Length: 680 > Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Gentlemen. I won't embarass those posting subjects like this by mentioning names. I would like to make one very simple request, however. Clearly some of you get prr-talk in digest form. Likely Jerry's server provides a subject similar to the above. Could you _please_ change the subject to something resembling what's being talked about? Use the original poster's subject when possible. Thanks. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Feb 98 10:26:29 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Modern Power for Today's Trains Content-Length: 1971 --====56515552535757564954===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Dan Cupper wrote: > >Earlier versions of this booklet exist from BEFORE the dieselization >period. Known prior dates are 1939 and 1926. Not to sound facetious, but what did PRR call "Modern Power" in 1939? Didn't their 'latest thing in steam' designs date at that point from the early 1920's, or was the booklet about the S1 'big engine' at the World's Fair? Wasn't this before the T1's/Q1,Q2's were even though of? The J1 was a war baby, so that leaves that design out. Or was the booklet talking about the electrification? Inquiring minds want to know -- Doug Drew --====56515552535757564954===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Cupper wrote:
>
>Earlier versions of this booklet exist from BEFORE the dieselization
>period. Known prior dates are 1939 and 1926.

Not to sound facetious, but what did PRR call "Modern Power" in 1939? Didn't their 'latest thing in steam' designs date at that point from the early 1920's, or was the booklet about the S1 'big engine' at the World's Fair? Wasn't this before the T1's/Q1,Q2's were even though of? The J1 was a war baby, so that leaves that design out. Or was the booklet talking about the electrification?
Inquiring minds want to know -- Doug Drew


 --====56515552535757564954===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Pennsy logo survivors (fwd) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:25:05 EST Content-Length: 1006 > Maybe I am the last one on earth to notice this, but > in passing through Philly on Metroliner 114 on Friday > we passed a SEPTA train, and one of the cars was a > Silverliner clearly lettered > > P E N N S Y L V A N I A > > How many are still out there? A bunch. (I'm being terribly specific, aren't I?) > Not sure whether this buoyed > my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock > in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's > apparent indifference to its corporate image! Not indifference. Lack of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Surely thinkest thou not, that given sufficient wherewithal, _any_ organization of a corporate stripe would not opt to plaster its image and likeness on any available flat surface? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Feb 98 10:30:41 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1394 --====49515251545154504853===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Richard F. Makse wrote: >Hey, the red cars were older than dirt when they were taken out of service >but a generation that grew up on Pioneers and Silverliners and Comets >doesn't remember that what made the red cars bearable was the fact that you >could open a window! Yes, that and, in event of a collision, the fact that an MP54 would probably go THROUGH a Silverliner... --====49515251545154504853===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard F. Makse wrote:

>Hey, the red cars were older than dirt when they were taken out of service
>but a generation that grew up on Pioneers and Silverliners and Comets
>doesn't remember that what made the red cars bearable was the fact that you
>could open a window!

Yes, that and, in event of a collision, the fact that an MP54 would probably go THROUGH a Silverliner... --====49515251545154504853===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:19:00 EST Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Content-Length: 707 In a message dated 98-02-01 00:08:59 EST, NKLoudon@compuserve.com writes: << Questions: Class R 4-8-4 ? I thought PRR shunned this wheel arrangement. In steam yes. The class R locomotives were electrics. Also: 2-10-2 listed as "Jubilee" type. I had only associated this name with CPR 4-4-4's. Isn't there another designation ? Previously corrected by original poster. I believe a 4-10-0 was a Mastodon and a 2-10-4 was a Texas. >> Correct on both accounts Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:40:59 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: H21a Content-Length: 828 I have assembled a 12-pack of Bowser H21a hopper cars. One thing missing on these, as well as any other hopper car kit I've seen, is the air line. I am assuming the air line ran along the side of the car, but have not found a photo good enough to confirm this. Am I correct? Can someone point me to a good side photo of one of these cars that shows some detail? Are there any other modifications/corrections that need to be made to make the model more prototypical? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Aero Train Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 11:32:48 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 647 Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. Damned that thing was ugly! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:39:35 EST Subject: Re: GLa, H31, MT comparison Content-Length: 351 How are you going to get past the sidesill, underframe, locking mechanism, end detail differences etc. between the Gla and H31? Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Form 1 vs. Form 4 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 11:53:56 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 719 I have two Public Timetables from 1954. One is labeled "Form 1", the other "Form 4". What's the difference? I did note that one of them, don't have in front of me, does not include the east to Toledo/Detroit route, possibly among others. Neither has north-south routes; both are considered "east-west timetables". --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:42:30 EST Subject: Re: Greenville 100t 15 panel hoppers Content-Length: 373 The last open top hopper the PRR ordered was the H43. While some of these were constructed by Greenville, they were not the 15 panel Greenville car. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: West Springfield show report.... Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 12:08:42 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2788 Hi all, Went to the West Springfield show yesterday. Damn is that place huge! Got there at 9:30 and didn't get out until a little after 4! (and no break for lunch!) How was Timmonium? (and when's the next one?!) Here's some stuff I saw/found out... Bethlehem Car Works, saw the K11 (I think) stock car conversion kit. Looks nice. He also repeated what others have said about the B60's, you should see them again in a month or two. No modifications or changes - same kit as before. Stewart, Steve was showing off pictures of their new plant. They now have enough space to get the equiptment to do their own injection molding... He also had a C628 running back and forth on a piece of test track! It's all done except for the fuel tank and window glazing! He said PRR should be sometime around May! Branchline Trains, saw cad drawings of their new 50' boxcars. They're Intermountain style kits with seperate details, proto 2000 trucks, etc... Should be about $11. They look like they're going to be great! They are doing 4 different ends styles, 3 roofs, different side sills, and different door openings! At least 1 combination will be dead on for PRR!!! Yeah! They really seem to be doing their homework on these! Atlas Talked with the guys from Atlas, asked when/if they plan on running the S1/S3 in PRR, they said it wouldn't be soon. When a friend asked him what about capturing that large PRR market out there, the Atlas rep responded with a "what large PRR market!" He then went on to say how the PRR market is drying up as many who remember the PRR are dying off... Tell that to Life-Like and others who seem to do well making PRR specific stuff or run extra's of PRR items! (ie 3 #'s of PRR GP9's) Other than that they had a flyer for PRR (and others) SW9's in O scale! Model Memories, PRR catanery bridges in HO! Nice!!!!!! A two track bridge is $20 assembled, $10 as a kit. They also have the transmission tower's that go on top as a seperate kit. They have a web site at http://www.info-4u.com/modelmemories/mproduct.htm I'm not sure if the PRR stuff is on their page yet though... Other than that, I picked up a 1930 ORER. Hopefully it won't be too long before I can add the PRR information to my PRR freight cars page... Also picked up a CD-rom of PRR photos. I've seen it advertised in some magazine... I haven't unwrapped it yet so I can't say it it's worth the $20... When I try it I'll post a short review. I'm sure I'm missing stuff but it's back to work I go! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:41:06 EST Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 811 In a message dated 98-02-01 11:56:54 EST, bobsin@nac.net writes: >How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed >my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock >in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's >apparent indifference to its corporate image! I commute on SEPTA, and I often see the 236. The keystone logo is gone, but the name is still untouched. I'll try to determine if there are any other "Pennsylvania" MU's, but it will have to be done by random observation. I'm sure nobody at SEPTA has this kind of information. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:08:34 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: H21a Content-Length: 1428 Hello all- Re Don's question about the H21a airline, I believe it was not visible but ran along the center sill. If one wanted to be really ambitious, one could replace some or all of the grabs. There was an article on upgrading the H21a in RMC a year or two ago. Jim On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Donald E. Harper, Jr. wrote: > I have assembled a 12-pack of Bowser H21a hopper cars. One thing missing on > these, as well as any other hopper car kit I've seen, is the air line. I am > assuming the air line ran along the side of the car, but have not found a photo > good enough to confirm this. Am I correct? > > Can someone point me to a good side photo of one of these cars that shows some > detail? > > Are there any other modifications/corrections that need to be made to make the > model more prototypical? > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:20:23 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Content-Length: 337 Aloha, I was bothered by the reference to the P5 class motor as 2-C-C-2. It's wheel arrangement is 4-6-4 or 2-C-2. Eric ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:58:25 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Loram Rail Grinder in Altoona Content-Length: 369 Greetings to the group, For those who are interested in these sorts of things, the Loram rail grinder is here in Altoona. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 16:07:21 EST From: Subject: Poling cars Content-Length: 1133 I just read a brief article in a 1988 edition of MR that stated the PRR used a special car called a poling car to push freight cars on adjacent tracks. This car, for apparent safety reasons, was developed to eliminate a person from having to hold a pole in in the poling pockets until the locomotive could begin to push a freight car. The article stated there was a place for a crewman to sit in this car and a pole could be mechanically swung out from either side to engage an adjacent freight car. Question? - Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, flat, tender, etc? - What wre they classified as? - Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? - Were any kits ever made of these animals? - When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my future 1954 era layout? Hope someone out there can enlighten me/us. Regards, Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:18:38 EST Content-Length: 1439 Yes, there is one. I believe that it is number 369. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 11:56:29 -0500 bobsin@nac.net writes: >Maybe I am the last one on earth to notice this, but >in passing through Philly on Metroliner 114 on Friday >we passed a SEPTA train, and one of the cars was a >Silverliner clearly lettered > >P E N N S Y L V A N I A > >How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed >my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock >in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's >apparent indifference to its corporate image! > >John Bobsin > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:29:44 +0000 Subject: Book collection FOR SALE From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 3365 Hello to all, I am in the process of now converting to the evil empire (that being UP modeling in N-scale). Therefore I am looking to clear out some of my Pennsy books to make room for incoming books on UP and allow the buildup of my N-scale collection. I will process any requests as they come in. Shipping shall be $4 per order. Thanks all and sorry for any inconvenience. I also have a PSC N8 Cabin car in factory paint that I am looking to clear out for around $80 if any are interested. One other item not listed here that is also available is about 36 issues of Rails Northeast with cover dates from 1976-1980 and those will go for $30 plus buyer pays all shipping (these are magazines and very heavy but have a lot of PRR diagrams in them). Pennsy Power (Used, ripped cover) $30.00 Pennsy Power 2 (Used, no cover 1st edition signed by author) $30.00 Pennsy Power 3 (Excellent condition, good cover) $40.00 Pennsy Steam Years Volume 1 (Like new, excellent cover) $30.00 Pennsy Steam A to T (Good condition, good cover) $20.00 Pennsy Steam A Second Look (New, not read) $25.00 Keystone Steam and Electric (Good condition, engines not retired by $10.00 1954 highlight in high lighter) NJ International Classic Power 5 Pennsy Q Class (like new) $15.00 NJ International Classic Power 6 The many faces of the K-4 (excellent) $25.00 NJ International Classic Power 8 Pennsy M-1 Dual Service Engines $20.00 (like new) Pennsy Diesel Years Volume 1 (like new) $30.00 PDY Volume 2 (Excellent condition, ripped cover) $30.00 PDY Volume 3 (Excellent condition) $30.00 PDY Volume 4 (Excellent condition) $30.00 PDY Volume 5 (Excellent condition) $30.00 PDY Volume 6 (Excellent condition) $30.00 or get all 6 volumes for $150 PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 1 ALCo RS-series (excellent) $10.00 PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 2 Baldwin switchers (excellent) $10.00 PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 3 2nd Generation EMD (excellent) $10.00 Cross Continent Electrics (like new) $10.00 The Cars of the PRR by Wayner Publications (good condition) $5.00 PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol. 2 (like new) $30.00 Triumph 1: Altoona to Pitcairn $35.00 Horseshoe Heritage (like new) $5.00 The Pennsy in the Steel City (Like new) $10.00 PRR Elmira Branch (like new) $15.00 Pennsylvania Railroad the 1940s-1950s (excellent condition) $30.00 I Remember the Pennsy by Don Wood (Used, ripped cover) $20.00 The History of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Excellent condition) $10.00 Crossroads of Commerce (like new) $25.00 A Special History study PRR shops and works at Altoona, Pennsylvania $15.00 (this book is new and not read obtained from RR Memorial Museum at Altoona) Jeremy Helms _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:34:02 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 909 Jerry writes: >Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a >Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 >to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. >Damned that thing was ugly! ===== Well, it DID run on the NYC! I understand the styling was based on the 57 Chevy; would that there was an "old car" club for motor trains! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Drye, John" Subject: MT Hopper Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:45:49 -0500 Content-Length: 1033 Ron writes: > >I have asked my supplier to check into a bulk purchase of MT 56000's and >57000's for me as I can't see buying them one at a time at $10.00+ ea. >I need at least 3 or 4 hundred and if anyone is interested in joining in >we might be able to get a reasonable unit price. IF MT will sell them in >large quantities undecorated. I know that MT requires about a 300 car >minimum for special runs but I've been told that they won't decorate any >cars for anyone in proto schemes they are reserving for themselves. >Anyway, it's worth a shot. Thoughts? > Might be worth asking M-T about a proto scheme special run. If nothing else, it would let them know that there is interest in more PRR hoppers. Count me in for at least 50, if they are decorated, and a dozen if undec. Thanks, John Drye ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: GLa, H31, MT comparison Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:18:15 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 701 On 2 Feb, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > How are you going to get past the sidesill, underframe, locking mechanism, end > detail differences etc. between the Gla and H31? Excellent questions! Just the kind of thing I was hoping for when I asked. Again, my eyes are untrained and don't see details immediately; I have to really peer at both pix at the same time to pick up on a lot of this stuff. Although the locking mechanism is almost certainly invisible in N scale. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:41:13 EST Subject: Re: Wheel Arrangement Screwup! Content-Length: 504 In a message dated 98-02-02 06:56:34 EST, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: >Hrmph! > >Actually, the P5 had 4-6-4 (or 2-C-2) wheel >arrangement. Yes! You and several others caught my error in calling them 2-C-C-2's. That's what I get for doing the e-mail at 5:00 a.m. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:55:45 EST Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1614 In a message dated 98-02-01 16:23:52 EST, ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: >and was told it was because SEPTA >greatfully bowed to many requests from PRR fans, etc., etc., to put back >the old Pennsy name on some of the cars they inherited from the PRR as a I don't wish to come right out and accuse Charlie of being wrong, as I'm not 100% sure of these facts myself. BUT.......I have lived and worked in Philly for most of my life, including continuously for the past 20 years. I think that, if there were any kind of official SEPTA restoration effort on one or more of these MU's, two things would have happened. 1) They would have completely and correctly restored the exterior, which would include the keystone logo on the car ends. The car(s) in question have only the standard SEPTA logo. 2) This restoration would have been trumpeted in the PRRT&HS publications, Phila-NRHS's "Cinders", probably Railpace, etc., etc. I do not recall reading anything to this effect. I think it might be quite possible that some MU shop foreman was instructed to wipe out the "PENNSYLVANIA" name on all the affected cars, and purposely skipped one or two-- without the blessing of management. I have made up a checklist with car numbers 201 through 240 (I think PRR had 35 or 38 of those cars) and plan to check off the current paint status of each car as I see it. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:42:05 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Modern Power for Today's Trains Content-Length: 1492 > >Earlier versions of this booklet exist from BEFORE the dieselization > >period. Known prior dates are 1939 and 1926. > > Not to sound facetious, but what did PRR call "Modern Power" in 1939? > Didn't their 'latest thing in steam' designs date at that point from the > early 1920's, or was the booklet about the S1 'big engine' at the World's > Fair? Wasn't this before the T1's/Q1,Q2's were even though of? The J1 was a > war baby, so that leaves that design out. Or was the booklet talking about > the electrification? > Inquiring minds want to know -- Doug Drew Doug, the 1939 version of the book was titled "Modern Locomotives and Cars" and featured the first streamlined K4 (3768) and a *model* of the S1, as well as the GG1 and the P5a modified (streamlined) 2+C+2 motor, and the PRR's first diesel, EMD SW-class switcher 3908. But as you suggest, it also showed old faithful designs such as E6s, G5s, K4s, M1a. I1s, H10s, L1s, B6sb, and C1. Also shown are freight and passenger cars, some of the latter of which are old standbys like B60B, MP54, R50B, and M70, and others of which are Fleet of Modernism cars (P82R and D82R). Likewise, the 1926 version showed both locomotives and cars. The July 1949 version shows only locomotives. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:51:15 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Form 1 vs. Form 4 Content-Length: 1349 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > I have two Public Timetables from 1954. One is labeled "Form 1", the > other "Form 4". What's the difference? > The difference lies in the primeval origins of the Lines East and Lines West. Form 1 was originally a Lines West form that showed all principal east-west trains and all locals west of Pittsburgh. Although it later became the de facto PRR "system" timetable, it never really was that in truth. PRR did not actually have a "system" form. To its very end (July 30, 1967 issue), Form 1 fulfilled this function, and you'll find local service in Ohio and Indiana shown there. The prevailing PRR philosophy was that in the east, with its more dense population and multi-frequency routes, passengers could rely on (cheaper-to-produce) regional, local, and commuter forms. Form 4 served as a "principal east-west trains" timetable until it was abolished in the mid-1950s and replaced by Form 2, which was a "condensed through service" form. For all who might be interested, I have posted a compendium of known PRR public timetable form numbers on Mark Bej's PRR page. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:58:22 -0500 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: H21a Content-Length: 1117 At 09:40 AM 2/2/98 -0600, Don wrote: >I have assembled a 12-pack of Bowser H21a hopper cars. One thing missing on >these, as well as any other hopper car kit I've seen, is the air line. I am >assuming the air line ran along the side of the car, but have not found a photo >good enough to confirm this. Am I correct? > >Are there any other modifications/corrections that need to be made to make the >model more prototypical? Don, I would consider adding the air reservoir bracket. It was a fairly visible feature that could easily be added using a small piece of styrene channel. Forget the airline, it ran down the center sill. (The H31 modelers need to add this detail.) Since the H21 subclasses topped out at over 39,000 cars, good photos are found in many Pennsy books and hobby publications. I'm surprised you had a problem digging one up. Brian Brooks ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:30:21 EST Subject: Re: Poling cars Content-Length: 1103 In a message dated 98-02-02 19:35:22 EST, Kris Kollar writes: << Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, flat, tender, etc? - What wre they classified as? - Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? - Were any kits ever made of these animals? - When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my future 1954 era layout? >> Try pages 21 and 31 of Rails to Pittsburgh, W.A. Feibelman, Superior Publishing Company, Seattle, WA. for two views. I believe MR or RMC ran plans many years ago. Brass versions available on lthe consignment market. One of the experts can tell you about the date they phased out and whether they were "scratchbuilt" or built from other cars,but I think 1954 was pushing it. Most photos I saw were in the late 40's. In fact I don't ever remember seeing one with a diesel. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:37:09 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 965 Michael E. Allen wrote: > > Yes, there is one. I believe that it is number 369. > I have a couple of pictures of #269 with "PENNSYLVANIA" etched above the windows. (Not great pictures, one is a vid-cap) Posted at: http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ and also news:alt.binaries.pictures.rail -- _________ __\ _ /__"may your pantograph always reach the catenary" --------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- ---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- ----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ -----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ ------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:26:01 EST Subject: Re: Poling cars Content-Length: 1678 Kris, I thought that I had seen a photo of a poling car, but it seems I stumble on a photo of what the author calls an idler car. Your discription of a poling car is a bit suspicious, but it may be right. The idler car I found a picture of is in The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad; Wayner Publications, although I believe it may be out of print. The caption reads: "An idler car, used in yards, possibly pushed by a switcher for "poling", i.e. moving a car on the next track with a wooden pole diagonally set between corner sockets on the car and the idler" (page 60). I think this fits your bill. I examined the photo and I can see that the car likely wold work quite well as the "poling pockets" seem to be reinforced. The car is a flat car with a steel "hut" (for the lack of a better term) in the center of the car with clearances on both sides and handrails for added safety. The car would be a scratch build project but a rather easy one. There is no class markings in the photo on the car but the cars number is 497856 built in 4/02 . So far as using one on your circa 1954 PRR layout i would say go for it as I poling was still dome into the 70's an I believe that most of the BN crew I work around ( the company I work for leases half of the BN Salem, Or depot) still know "poling" and "chaining" but they pray they never have to use either technique. Hope this helps you out. Watching from LINES way out WEST . Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:40:24 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 2167 PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-01 16:23:52 EST, ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: > > >and was told it was because SEPTA > >greatfully bowed to many requests from PRR fans, etc., etc., to put back > >the old Pennsy name on some of the cars they inherited from the PRR as a > > I don't wish to come right out and accuse Charlie of being wrong, > as I'm not 100% sure of these facts myself. BUT.......I have lived > and worked in Philly for most of my life, including continuously for > the past 20 years. > I think that, if there were any kind of official SEPTA restoration effort > on one or more of these MU's, two things would have happened. > > 1) They would have completely and correctly restored the > exterior, which would include the keystone logo on the car ends. > The car(s) in question have only the standard SEPTA logo. > > 2) This restoration would have been trumpeted in the PRRT&HS > publications, Phila-NRHS's "Cinders", probably Railpace, etc., etc. > I do not recall reading anything to this effect. > > I think it might be quite possible that some MU shop foreman was > instructed to wipe out the "PENNSYLVANIA" name on all the > affected cars, and purposely skipped one or two-- without the > blessing of management. > > I have made up a checklist with car numbers 201 through 240 > (I think PRR had 35 or 38 of those cars) and plan to check off > the current paint status of each car as I see it. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". You're quite possibly correct. I never said the information I got was actual truth--only what was told to me. If we can get at the truth of why some of the cars still have PENNSYLVANIA in the letterboards, so much the better for us all. CF ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Poling cars From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 00:02:16 EST Content-Length: 2026 See page 100 of Wayner, Robert J, Ed. , "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" for a diagram. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Mon, 2 Feb 98 16:07:21 EST writes: >I just read a brief article in a 1988 edition of MR that stated the PRR >used a special car called a poling car to push freight cars on adjacent >tracks. This car, for apparent safety reasons, was developed to eliminate >a person from having to hold a pole in in the poling pockets until the >locomotive could begin to push a freight car. The article stated there was >a place for a crewman to sit in this car and a pole could be mechanically >swung out from either side to engage an adjacent freight car. > >Question? >- Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, >flat, tender, etc? Looks like a 30 foot flat. >- What wre they classified as? SC >- Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? >- Were any kits ever made of these animals? >- When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into >my future 1954 era layout? > >Hope someone out there can enlighten me/us. > >Regards, > >Kris Kollar > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Form 1 vs. Form 4 (fwd) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 8:59:21 EST Content-Length: 996 Jerry writes: > I have two Public Timetables from 1954. One is labeled "Form 1", the > other "Form 4". What's the difference? > > I did note that one of them, don't have in front of me, does not include > the east to Toledo/Detroit route, possibly among others. Neither has > north-south routes; both are considered "east-west timetables". Jerry, that's what http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/doc_names.html ("Index Of PRR Document Names and Numbers") is for. The passenger forms were compiled by Dan Cupper (whom I now invite to take a deep bow for the amount of work he did). From that table, Form 1: "System" -- actually, through east-west service and locals west of Pittsburgh Form 4: Condensed through east-west service -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: MT H31's (semi-long) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 09:37:20 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 2213 On 2 Feb, Ron Dugas wrote: > Dennis wrote: > > > ...I don't know when the five-pack was released. > > I'm not sure either but the boxes still say Kadee on them and I've had > them for quite a while (at least 10 years?). I just got mine on consignment at Ken's a month or so ago, but yes, it's clearly Kadee #56062. The PRR history on the back is a hoot! > Yes, it is 57100 to be exact. It is lettered H31B [...] > 220\877 Your diagram matches the photos in the Fisher article exactly, and the number is in the proper series, 220842-221341. > Someone stated they thought this may be a > special run by Al's Custom Cars? I don't believe so since it has an MT > label and number. Makes sense to me! > So where and how were they used > in the 1939-1959 period? Revenue, MOW or ? I would ASSume revenue service, if they were still bothering to rebuild right up to PC day. Anything in MoW service is generally allowed to decay into unusability, judging from the photos. > > ..., and if you puttied in the seams on the 57000, or added diagonal > > braces to the 56000, it would make a good H31c. > > Except that the 56000 has seven vertical ribs and the H31C had five. Eeek. Like I said, my eyes are untrained. They're good, they just need a little seasoning. Garlic, maybe. Still, the putty idea sounds good. > BTW, Dennis, My 5-pack has the following road numbers. Agree with yours?: > > PRR 220156 > PRR 220301 > PRR 220538 > PRR 220573 > PRR 220819 Exactly. Interestingly enough, the Fisher article gives H31 number series of 220301-220841 and 222051-222670. Does anybody know what car 220156 should be? I'm planning to renumber mine, and add end numbers to all five. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:41:14 EST Subject: MP54 vs. Silverliner (was: R; Pennsy logo survivors) Content-Length: 1772 In a message dated 98-02-02 12:37:42 EST, Doug Drew wrote: << Subj: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Date: 98-02-02 12:37:42 EST Richard F. Makse wrote: >Hey, the red cars were older than dirt when they were taken out of service >but a generation that grew up on Pioneers and Silverliners and Comets >doesn't remember that what made the red cars bearable was the fact that you >could open a window! Yes, that and, in event of a collision, the fact that an MP54 would probably go THROUGH a Silverliner... -------------------- >> I would argue the contrary: the Silverliner uses the shotwelded construction technique developed by Budd, and the body and its skin are one unit and maybe the strongest thing ever built on a size/weight basis. The MP54 has a truss frame below the window line with a separate skin riveted on, which would allow some telescoping. Look for wreck photos of a LIRR crash (1950's) of MP54's and the Frankford Junction crash (WWII) with P70's. The only Budd-style car that I recall being crushed beyond the vestibule was the the lead Amfleet car in the Gunpowder Bridge crash on the NEC. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL P.S. Riding in the MP54's with the windows open was nice until the first tests of the original Metroliner cars between New Brunswick and Princeton Junction: the cars with wooden window frames were soon isolated in Philadelphia suburban service, and only cars with metal window frames were allowed out to play with the Metroliners. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:41:16 EST Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1921 In a message dated 98-02-02 17:40:17 EST, Rich Copeland wrote: << Subj: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Date: 98-02-02 17:40:17 EST In a message dated 98-02-01 11:56:54 EST, bobsin@nac.net writes: >How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed >my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock >in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's >apparent indifference to its corporate image! I commute on SEPTA, and I often see the 236. The keystone logo is gone, but the name is still untouched. I'll try to determine if there are any other "Pennsylvania" MU's, but it will have to be done by random observation. I'm sure nobody at SEPTA has this kind of information. Rich Copeland >> My feeling is that SEPTA did its best to remove the PENNSYLVANIA and READING markings from the cars, but found that the method used by Budd to get the letterboard marking in place was truly "for the ages"; I believe that the stainless panels were acid etched with the lettering. For several years, several of the cars rode around with faded versions of the letterboard, looking as if many, many, hours had been spent by someone with a wirebrush trying and failing to eliminate the ghost of the lettering. When several of the cars were rehabbed by Morrison-Knudson, they were returned with a new plain stainless steel panel riveted over the old letterboard (it would have been essentially impossible to remove/replace the old letterboard, the Budd shotwelding construction technique made the even the letterboard part of the overall strength girder of the car). Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:40:50 +0000 Subject: Re: Book Collection FOR SALE From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1145 Hello to all, I just am posting this because I am getting a good number of requests for books already sold. The following is what is left. Most items already sold were requested by at least 3 individuals. If you want to make an offer for the remaining books (seems to high priced) feel free. Pennsy Steam Years Volume 1 (Like new, excellent cover) $30.00 NJ International Classic Power 5 Pennsy Q Class (like new) $15.00 NJ International Classic Power 6 The many faces of the K-4 (excellent) $25.00 Cross Continent Electrics (like new) $10.00 PRR Elmira Branch (like new) $15.00 I Remember the Pennsy by Don Wood (Used, ripped cover) $20.00 Jeremy Helms _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:47:32 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Poling cars Content-Length: 1915 >Question? >- Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, >flat, tender, etc? >- What wre they classified as? >- Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? >- Were any kits ever made of these animals? >- When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my >future 1954 era layout? Kris, These cars really existed, and a scratch built one was in the Model Contest at the NMRA national (photo in the NMRA bulletin, MR, and other pubs?). The car has been made in brass, and one is for sale at Peach Creek Hobbies 2064 PRR NJCB Poling car w/o Trucks M of W $90.00 This car looks like a shorty flat with a shelter in the middle and two arms sticking out on pivots from the center of each side. I would guess that they weren't very common! Although they had to be safer than manual poling! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:18:35 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 968 Greetings to Jerry and the group, The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR article. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 11:32 AM 2/2/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a >Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 >to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. >Damned that thing was ugly! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 03 Feb 98 11:11:48 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Poling cars Content-Length: 11019 --====49555648505048495650===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Kris -- There is a drawing in an old Model Railroader I own. It's at home, so I can't get you the month and year right now. The car drawing I saw (by J. Harold Geissel) was lettered for Sunbury yard, but I have seen pictures of them in use at Pitcairn yard, as well. I think the one in the drawing was built pre-WW1. I believe these cars were purpose-built, rather than converted from a flat car or other type of car. This is because the push-poles were an integral part of the car, connected by a stout hinge and diagonal brace with an actuating lever that went into the 'cabin' on the car. When retracted, the pole 'notched into' the frame of the car, I assume for clearance in tight areas, and so not to clobber any inattentive yard men as the car rolled by. On the drawing I saw, one pole faced in one direction, and the one on the other side faced the opposite direction -- the direction of poling being on the engineer's side as the car was pushed in front of the engine (or were they pulled?). My assumption is that these cars were used to shove two cuts of cars down yard tracks simutaneously. My theory is that an engine could probably handle pushing cuts of cars on its own track and an adjacent one, but pushing three cuts was too much to ask. It seems these poling cars would have had to have been more stoutly-built than a typical flat car, due to the additional sideward stresses on them . Does anyone know how many cars could be poled in one cut, in this manner? Most poling I have heard of was of single cars, to move them into a track where an engine wasn't permitted, or move a car because it fouled a switch where the coupler couldn't be gotten-to by the engine. It seems the stresses of poling a large cut of cars using a pole pushing on the corner pole pocket would have crumpled most wooden cars of the day, as they weren't designed for this kind of stress. Was it done mainly on all-steel cars, such as hopper cars? For strings of empty cars only? I think poling was discontinued for a couple of reasons: 1) Safety. Poling must have been 'hazardous duty', even with a purpose-built car to do the work. Since the poled cut of cars didn't have a direct connection to the pushing locomotive, all kinds of mischief could result if extreme care wasn't taken in moving the cars. I assume a brakeman would have had to ride the poled cut, to control it, as well as a man keeping the pole in the poling pocket of the car(s) being pushed. This method of moving cars may have gone out of favor as yards became more automated and less-labor intensive. 2) The increasing weight of cars in general. As cars grew in dimension, and went from all-wood construction to steel, their light weights and carrying capacities increased, allowing less cars to be poled efficiently in each cut. 3) General lessening of traffic. It seems the need for use of poling cars was engendered by traffic pressures on yards, and the need to keep yards as empty as possible as quickly as possible. Having to jockey up and down tracks in a yard to keep cars moving through it (especially in yards the size of PRR's) was time-consuming, hence the idea behind poling a cut of cars while pushing another. As traffic began to wane in the 50's, there was less pressure to have to move cars using this method. I think a functional poling car working a large yard would be a really neat "Pennsy" type of thing to model in the right era, perhaps with some kind of radio controlled servo to actuate the pole. One would have to have cars weighted to the NMRA standards, at least, to prevent pushing them off the tracks. -- Doug Drew kkollar wrote: >I just read a brief article in a 1988 edition of MR that stated the PRR >used a special car called a poling car to push freight cars on adjacent >tracks. This car, for apparent safety reasons, was developed to eliminate >a person from having to hold a pole in in the poling pockets until the >locomotive could begin to push a freight car. The article stated there was >a place for a crewman to sit in this car and a pole could be mechanically >swung out from either side to engage an adjacent freight car. > >Question? >- Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, >flat, tender, etc? >- What wre they classified as? >- Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? >- Were any kits ever made of these animals? >- When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my >future 1954 era layout? > >Hope someone out there can enlighten me/us. > >Regards, > >Kris Kollar > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====49555648505048495650===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kris --
There is a drawing in an old Model Railroader I own. It's at home, so I can't get you the month and year right now. The car drawing I saw (by J. Harold Geissel) was lettered for Sunbury yard, but I have seen pictures of them in use at Pitcairn yard, as well. I think the one in the drawing was built pre-WW1.

I believe these cars were purpose-built, rather than converted from a flat car or other type of car. This is because the push-poles were an integral part of the car, connected by a stout hinge and diagonal brace with an actuating lever that went into the 'cabin' on the car. When retracted, the pole 'notched into' the frame of the car, I assume for clearance in tight areas, and so not to clobber any inattentive yard men as the car rolled by. On the drawing I saw, one pole faced in one direction, and the one on the other side faced the opposite direction -- the direction of poling being on the engineer's side as the car was pushed in front of the engine (or were they pulled?).

My assumption is that these cars were used to shove two cuts of cars down yard tracks simutaneously. My theory is that an engine could probably handle pushing cuts of cars on its own track and an adjacent one, but pushing three cuts was too much to ask. It seems these poling cars would have had to have been more stoutly-built than a typical flat car, due to the additional sideward stresses on them
.
Does anyone know how many cars could be poled in one cut, in this manner? Most poling I have heard of was of single cars, to move them into a track where an engine wasn't permitted, or move a car because it fouled a switch where the coupler couldn't be gotten-to by the engine. It seems the stresses of poling a large cut of cars using a pole pushing on the corner pole pocket would have crumpled most wooden cars of the day, as they weren't designed for this kind of stress. Was it done mainly on all-steel cars, such as hopper cars? For strings of empty cars only?

I think poling was discontinued for a couple of reasons:
1) Safety. Poling must have been 'hazardous duty', even with a purpose-built car to do the work. Since the poled cut of cars didn't have a direct connection to the pushing locomotive, all kinds of mischief could result if extreme care wasn't taken in moving the cars. I assume a brakeman would have had to ride the poled cut, to control it, as well as a man keeping the pole in the poling pocket of the car(s) being pushed. This method of moving cars may have gone out of favor as yards became more automated and less-labor intensive.
2) The increasing weight of cars in general. As cars grew in dimension, and went from all-wood construction to steel, their light weights and carrying capacities increased, allowing less cars to be poled efficiently in each cut.
3) General lessening of traffic. It seems the need for use of poling cars was engendered by traffic pressures on yards, and the need to keep yards as empty as possible as quickly as possible. Having to jockey up and down tracks in a yard to keep cars moving through it (especially in yards the size of PRR's) was time-consuming, hence the idea behind poling a cut of cars while pushing another. As traffic began to wane in the 50's, there was less pressure to have to move cars using this method.
I think a functional poling car working a large yard would be a really neat "Pennsy" type of thing to model in the right era, perhaps with some kind of radio controlled servo to actuate the pole. One would have to have cars weighted to the NMRA standards, at least, to prevent pushing them off the tracks.
-- Doug Drew

kkollar wrote:
>I just read a brief article in a 1988 edition of MR that stated the PRR
>used a special car called a poling car to push freight cars on adjacent
>tracks. This car, for apparent safety reasons, was developed to eliminate
>a person from having to hold a pole in in the poling pockets until the
>locomotive could begin to push a freight car. The article stated there was
>a place for a crewman to sit in this car and a pole could be mechanically
>swung out from either side to engage an adjacent freight car.
>
>Question?
>- Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola,
>flat, tender, etc?
>- What wre they classified as?
>- Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books?
>- Were any kits ever made of these animals?
>- When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my
>future 1954 era layout?
>
>Hope someone out there can enlighten me/us.
>
>Regards,
>
>Kris Kollar
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====49555648505048495650===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 03 Feb 98 11:56:48 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 1414 --====52535750545652524955===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" rboydrrs wrote >I understand the styling was based on the 57 >Chevy; Which is interesting, as the train was running in 1956. Perhaps the Chevy was based on the Aerotrain. I think the thing was a combination of a Chevy sedan 'turret roof' for the cab and Flxible/GM bus bodies for the rest, and it rode worse than either. -- Doug Drew --====52535750545652524955===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rboydrrs wrote
>I understand the styling was based on the 57
>Chevy;

Which is interesting, as the train was running in 1956. Perhaps the Chevy was based on the Aerotrain.
I think the thing was a combination of a Chevy sedan 'turret roof' for the cab and Flxible/GM bus bodies for the rest, and it rode worse than either.
-- Doug Drew

 --====52535750545652524955===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: RE: Aero Train Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:01:15 -0500 Content-Length: 1383 I have a Varney AeroTrain loco I got as part of an HO lot I purchased some years ago. My Varney is a dummy unit in original box with instructions. There is no indication of what the powered mechanism was like. > >The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm >pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier >model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have >been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If >anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR >article. > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA > >At 11:32 AM 2/2/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >>Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a >>Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 >>to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. >>Damned that thing was ugly! > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: What If the PRR had Survived? Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:07:26 PST Content-Length: 1607 To all, As some of you may know, Jeremy Helms and I have been working on a "What If" for the PRR. We are getting ready to place the information we have come up with on the net on my web page. I am wondering if anyone else is interested in this project? If so, please email eather me or Jeremy. This is not such a strange idea by the way, the Erie RR web site has had a talk group dealing with the same subject for the Erie for over three years now. And there is a "what if" BN had never happened group. I'm told that there is even a "what if" convention, which tells me this is becomming quite popular. To those who are, for some reason, against this idea, please keep your comments to yourselves. The last time I posted this request, I got several nasty emails. After all, in model railroading, anything is possible, it's all up to the imagination. History professors often assign a project to student, instructing them to pick a turning point in history, and change one thing, then determine the consiquences. We are mearly doing the same thing, and looking for others likewise interested. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:36:30 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 501 In a message dated 98-02-03 13:27:05 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I think the thing was a combination of a Chevy sedan 'turret roof' for the cab >> I heard that the chrome trim strip on the cab was identical to and could be replaced with the one from the car. John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Cyber chapter proposal Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 13:51:56 EST Content-Length: 459 Gents: As of 2 more votes today and yesterday (thank you), we now have 43 PRRTHS members and 20 nonmembers-potential-members FOR the chapter. (None against. By interesting coincidence, I'm also not counting votes against. :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Aero Train Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 14:25:51 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1276 I think the Helix Humper folks make a power kit for the aerotrain. I've never seen it but I think I saw a magazine ad for it a while ago. I powered mine using an Athearn S12 drive. It was pretty simple. I cut and lengthened (with some square brass tubing) the S12 frame and took the front set of wheels off of the rear truck. I think I drilled and tapped a hole and used a screw the keep the rear truck firmly fixed (otherwise with only one wheelset it won't stay level!) The only other thing that I remember having to do is add shims to the Athearn frame to better fit the notches on the Bowser body. I think the front wheel spacing is off by about 6 scale inches but it's not really noticable. It runs great, the only problem with it is that at speed the rear coaches bounce off the track at some switches! I added an ounce to each coach but I guess they still need a bit more! Now I just have to figure out how to match the paint for the three undec coaches I got. If anyone wants more detail on the powering let me know... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Aero Train Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:50:59 -0500 Content-Length: 1670 Drew, Actually, ALCO Products makes or did make (not sure if it is still available) a powering kit for the Bowser/ Varney Aero Train. Perhaps if you are interested you might give them a call. I don't have the number handy, but I can look it up if you need it. Joe Zappa ---------- > From: Drew McGhee > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: Aero Train > Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 10:18 AM > > Greetings to Jerry and the group, > > The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm > pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier > model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have > been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If > anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR article. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > > At 11:32 AM 2/2/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: > >Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a > >Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 > >to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. > >Damned that thing was ugly! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Cyber chapter agenda - help Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:00:01 EST Content-Length: 776 Guys: Somewhere in the deep recesses of my memory supposedly was the proposed agenda for the proposed cyber proposed chapter proposal. I lost it. I'm therefore re-asking any or all of you to submit suggestions of topics. I'll (this time) duly place them up on the cyber chapter temporary home page at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Cyber/ Proposed support for an email list I already have. Proposed Web site creation/editing/upkeep/etc. I already have. Proposed CyberNewsletter (email, web) I already have. What else? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: RE: What If the PRR had Survived? Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:55:22 -0500 Content-Length: 493 > As some of you may know, Jeremy Helms and I have been working on a > "What If" for the PRR > This isn't that hard. They just would have bought at least a few of whatever EMD and GE have offered over the past 30 years and painted them black, uh Brunswick green. =B^) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Aero Train Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:18:59 -0500 Content-Length: 1419 Continuing the Aero Train saga, I saw a reprise of the RR show on the History Channel last night, and there was a brief clip of the Aero Train going around Horseshoe Curve, of all places. The old Kemtron firm made a power conversion kit for Varney's Aero Train. They also marketed some very nicly done brass castings for the truck/journal/suspension pieces, replacing the toy-like parts of the original, making the model look just like the real thing. These brass castings were re-run on a limited bases about ten years ago by a different outfit, and are no longer in production. But, any die-hard SPF simply's gotta have one, and Bowser sells it, although unpowered. Wouldn' be too hard to rig up a power drive. Doesn' have to be a good one, since the 1:1 scale version had a crappy drive train--almost like a spring drive shafted 1963 LeMans. Cheap, light, and underpowered. But, the Aero Train is the best looking thing Varney ever turned out. I still have one, and I think it really speaks to a design era that is, thankfully, gone. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, watching the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today. Must be a maintenance window--or something, ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:45:09 +0000 From: Iain A Fraser Subject: Re: Cyber chapter proposal Content-Length: 467 Hi guys..... Sorry to be a pain but... what is this about. I don't think the original messages made it this side of the pond. Can someone bring me up to date. Thanks Iain Iain Fraser AEROLITE BOOKTRADERS rail books at www.aerolite.u-net.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:14:20 EST Subject: Re: Construction Standards (fwd) Content-Length: 2449 *Whew* I'll never get that far behind in my e-mail again. It took me more than three hours to get all read and disposed of. It was reall impressive to see a graphic representation in the interest that's being generated by PRRMO. On module standards, I vote for 30" largely because I've got the framing of two modules completed that are 30" inches wide. On the issue of curves, the wider the better, given that most prototye curvess, if accurately modeled would be, oh, 107" radii in HO. 36" is fine, 42" or more would be vetter but unrealistic because of sace limitations. So I cast my vo0te for 36". On track, it's Code 100, fersure, even though that's a bit light for Pennsy Mainline high iron As one who probably will be confined to a wheel chair at some point in the future, I'd like to pleas the case for "wheelchair height" modules. 40" to the railhead is fine for wheelchair viewing and acceptible for most wheelchair operations. On an earlier posting, I saw a reference to a roadbed of either 1/4" cork or 1/4" homasote. I've never seen 1/4" homasote, only 1/2". I believe that a roapdbed should be required and that it be either cork, homasote or some other acceptible sound deadening material. I don not think specifying width is that important just as long as the module sides, module ends and railhead are of common height.; On turnouts, I'd like to see the standard of #6 or long be applied to mainline turnouts only to insure problem-free running and because I own a number of #6 point and frog assemblies I picked up for a song. Allowing smaller turnouts as part of a module's setup allows for greater fllexibility. And for the real ambitious, the "57 PRR Standard MOW Plans books has a table ol dimensions that lists a #5 turnout (curved track with a !77' radius (24.6" in HO) up to a #20 (In HO that's a 474.7"-radius curved track) (#5.289, #6, #8, #10, #5 and #20 are the sizes of turnouts. Is it correct to assume that all turnout will be hand thrown? I"m just hoping that I can find a number of Lines West fans like my self so I'll have enogh modules ro reach the return loops. The other points are pretty in line with the NMRA and FreeMo standards. Tom V> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:45:39 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: MP54 vs. Silverliner (was: R; Pennsy logo survivors) Content-Length: 1650 BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > >> Richard F. Makse wrote: > Yes, that and, in event of a collision, the fact that an MP54 would > probably go THROUGH a Silverliner... > -------------------- >> > > I would argue the contrary: the Silverliner uses the shotwelded construction > technique developed by Budd, and the body and its skin are one unit and maybe > the strongest thing ever built on a size/weight basis. The MP54 has a truss > frame below the window line with a separate skin riveted on, which would allow > some telescoping. Look for wreck photos of a LIRR crash (1950's) of MP54's > and the Frankford Junction crash (WWII) with P70's. The only Budd-style car > that I recall being crushed beyond the vestibule was the the lead Amfleet car > in the Gunpowder Bridge crash on the NEC. > -------------------------------- But don't forget the ATSF Budd RDC car that turned over, apparently from excessive speed, on a 30 mph curve in California in the mid to late 1950's. It reportedly unzipped itself lengthwise, spilling and killing passengers into the debris. In the 1970's a heavyweight IC commuter MU train rear-ended a new, lightweight commuter MU train and totally telescoped into the rear car. I don't know who built the newer cars, but they were no match for the 1920 (?) vintage heavyweights. Steve Bartlett Working from memory with the possibility of correction as to details. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:53:28 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 906 Drew McGhee wrote: >> > The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm > pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier > model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have > been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If > anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR article. > Kemtron produced brass running gear parts and power for the Varney Aerotrain. Parts might still be available from whoever now has the HO Kemtron line (PSC?) This was reviewed in the July, 1956, Model Railroader Magazine, according to the index. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:00:18 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Dumb Question Dept. Content-Length: 461 Just a quick thank you to everyone who responded to my question about accessing non-web discussion groups. I have not had time yet to dig into the areas suggested, but have saved the messages for study in the very near future. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:55:12 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: What If the PRR had Survived? Content-Length: 2200 Kevin Tully wrote: > > To all, > > As some of you may know, Jeremy Helms and I have been working on a > "What If" for the PRR. We are getting ready to place the information we > have come up with on the net on my web page. I am wondering if anyone > else is interested in this project? If so, please email eather me or > Jeremy. This is not such a strange idea by the way, the Erie RR web > site has had a talk group dealing with the same subject for the Erie for > over three years now. And there is a "what if" BN had never happened > group. I'm told that there is even a "what if" convention, which tells > me this is becomming quite popular. > To those who are, for some reason, against this idea, please keep your > comments to yourselves. The last time I posted this request, I got > several nasty emails. After all, in model railroading, anything is > possible, it's all up to the imagination. History professors often > assign a project to student, instructing them to pick a turning point in > history, and change one thing, then determine the consiquences. We are > mearly doing the same thing, and looking for others likewise interested. > > Kevin J. Tully > C.E.O. > FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. > "The Allegheny Route" > A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Kevin (and Jeremy), Great idea! Immagination is the mother of invention (or in this case, of continuation). My mythical subsidiary of the continuing PRR is called the JUNIATA CENTRAL, and is the repository for all the foreign power that pleases me, as well as some PRR equipment "transferred" to it. CF ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:27:36 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Decals in N for Hoopers Content-Length: 573 Hello! I wrote a while ago about getting some decals for my PRR hoppers in Nscale. I got an address for Northeastern Decals and I shot a letter off to them. I haven't heard a thing though and was wondering if anyone had a phone number. Or how about other suppliers since Microscale doesn't make decals for the PRR hoppers..... Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Looking for P2K SW9's Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 21:44:12 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 749 If anyone knows of a mail order place (or hobby shop) that still has PRR Proto 2000 SW9's in stock, let me know. I still want to buy both road numbers and the supply has dried up. There were none to be found at the Timonium Show and all major mail order houses from the recent Model Railroader are sold out. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:31:50 EST Content-Length: 1789 I stand corrected on the car number. I was transcribing field notes made in the summer of 94 when the pan failed and it took down some of the wire near Grundy. The Transportation Supervisor borrowed a hank of rope off of my truck so that the AMTK Class "A" could tie it down. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:37:09 -0500 Chris Brandt writes: >Michael E. Allen wrote: >> >> Yes, there is one. I believe that it is number 369. >> > >I have a couple of pictures of #269 with "PENNSYLVANIA" etched above >the >windows. (Not great pictures, one is a vid-cap) Posted at: > >http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > >and also > >news:alt.binaries.pictures.rail > >-- > _________ > __\ _ /__"may your pantograph always reach the catenary" >--------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- >---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- >----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ >-----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ >------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:30:55 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 1133 >rboydrrs wrote >>I understand the styling was based on the 57 Chevy; > >Which is interesting, as the train was running in 1956. Perhaps the Chevy >was based on the Aerotrain. >I think the thing was a combination of a Chevy sedan 'turret roof' for >the cab and Flxible/GM bus bodies for the rest, and it rode worse than >either. >-- Doug Drew ======= Actually, the 57 Chevy was the last year of that body style, which had been introduced in 1955. That, in turn, was a stripped down Cadillac which had been around since something like 1953. (Rest assured, I detest automobiles; but I have a friend who is into 57s) Regards, Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:31:50 EST Content-Length: 1998 I stand corrected on the car number. I was transcribing field notes made in the summer of 94 when the pan failed and it took down some of the wire near Grundy. The Transportation Supervisor borrowed a hank of rope off of my truck so that the AMTK Class "A" could tie it down. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:37:09 -0500 Chris Brandt writes: >Michael E. Allen wrote: >> >> Yes, there is one. I believe that it is number 369. >> > >I have a couple of pictures of #269 with "PENNSYLVANIA" etched above >the >windows. (Not great pictures, one is a vid-cap) Posted at: > >http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > >and also > >news:alt.binaries.pictures.rail > >-- > _________ > __\ _ /__"may your pantograph always reach the catenary" >--------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- >---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- >----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ >-----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ >------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 05:40:40 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 588 Somebody once told me that the cars actually were bus bodies. Ugly? Sure! But it was fast. I have a Phila Division ETT which has lots of specially-increased speed limits just for the Aerotrain. What other equipment could make a round trip to Pittsburgh in a day, every day? Of course, the passengers paid for that speed, and I don't mean financially! Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 02:28:22 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: IT'S NEW...DIFFERENT Content-Length: 2223 Hi All, So reads the top of page 293 in the March 1956 Official Guide. It goes on to say: The Pennsy AeroTrain Now in Daily Service until May 25th between NEW YORK-PITTSBURGH and many intermediate points Daily Schedule Westbound Eastbound (Read Down) (Read Up) v7:55am Lv. New York (Penn Station) Ar. 11:30pm v8:09am Lv. Newark Ar. 11:05pm v8:49am Lv. Trenton Ar. 10:27pm 9:13am Lv. N. Phila. St. Ar. 10:02pm 9:40am Lv. Paoli Ar. 9:39p