From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:13:00 EST Subject: Re: PRR-electrics (was Odd PRR Power) Content-Length: 802 In a message dated 98-01-29 16:21:34 EST, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > the 1975/6 EMD >tests were partly to explore the feasibility of continuing the wires WEST Remember the "energy crisis"? Gas lines, gas stations running out, farewell to the $0.35 gallon...... This happened in the mid-70's, and I think this testing may have been a result of Conrail's fears concerning unavailability of diesel fuel. Once fuel became plentiful (albeit at much higher cost), we didn't hear much more about electrification of freight lines. Maybe just a coincidence.... Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New products -- inc. P2K PA1 in PRR! Date: Sun, 1 Feb 98 09:53:27 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1591 NEW ANNOUNCEMENTS: Proto-2000 has announced the road names for the second run of the PA-1 and PB-1 locomotives. These are scheduled to ship in May. PA-1 Powered Loco $100 * Pennsylvania (#5754A & #5755A) Brunswick Green 5 Stripe PB-1 Dummy Loco $45 * Pennsylvania (#5754B & #5756B) (Someone want to check the road numbers and confirm that they were delivered in DGLE?) REMINDERS: Proto-2000 has announced the road names for the fourth run of the E-7A and E-7B locomotives. As far as quantities, we quote from the Life-Like release letter. "Due to component availability these locomotives will be even more Œlimited¹ run than normal". E-7A Powered Locomotives * PRR (#5841A & #5848A) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes E-7B Dummy Locomotive * PRR (#5844B & #5853B) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes Delivery is scheduled for February. Prices will be $90.00 per E-7A and $45.00 per E-7B. RUMORS: * The next Proto-2000 Diesel Loco will be a GP-20; an E6 may be planned as well. * We have heard that a Large, Automotive Manufacturing Facility will be released during 1999. (Could this be Walther's theme for 1999?) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: OOOPS! I meant HOPPERS! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 10:07:52 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1722 On 28 Jan, SUVCW ORR wrote: > The H31a was a one of a kind car number 249990. The H31b were the composite > cars of mass production -- 500 cars numbered 220842-221341. Beginning in 1952 > the H31b were rebuilt as steel cars and classes H31c without changing the car > number.. There were still 3 H31b class cars on the final PRR roster. > > H31 IL 31 6 IW 9 9 OL 32 9 EXT W 10 5 CUFT 1859 > H31a IL 31 6 IW 9 4 OL 32 9 EXT W 10 5 CUFT 1911 > H31b IL 31 1 IW 9 4 OL 32 9 EXT W 10 5 CUFT 1738 > H31c IL 31 5 IW 9 8 OL 32 9 EXT W 10 5 CUFT 1854 > > The angle of the slope sheet is differnt on the H31a and H31b. The H31a slope > sheet is wood. The H31b slope sheet is steel. At a guess from the dimensions above, the H31 and H31b slope sheets are at the same angle? The end result of all of this, regarding MT hoppers as PRR prototypes, it would appear that the 56000 body style makes a good H31, the 57000 makes a good H31b, and if you puttied in the seams on the 57000, or added diagonal braces to the 56000, it would make a good H31c. I have six unique road numbers of MT-produced H31s, but I haven't seen any cars lettered as H31b. Of course, my information is incomplete. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 10:05:13 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Was Wrong about train 509 Content-Length: 627 Greetings to the group, I had previously mentioned that I thought that train 509 might have been a Sunday only version of the Penn-Lehigh Express. Apparently I was wrong. I couldn't find a train 509 running on the Penn-Lehigh Express schedule in a public TT from 1924 or an employee TT from 1931. hopefully someone else was able to supply the information concerning train 509. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 11:56:29 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 670 Maybe I am the last one on earth to notice this, but in passing through Philly on Metroliner 114 on Friday we passed a SEPTA train, and one of the cars was a Silverliner clearly lettered P E N N S Y L V A N I A How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's apparent indifference to its corporate image! John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: fwd: MT H31 FS Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:02:15 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1658 There is one of the MT H31 hoppers we've been discussing along with three boxcars advertised for sale on the N-scale mailing list. I've snipped out the non-PRR portion of the posting to conform to what I think are the PRR_Talk rules. The 20000 series is a 40' single door boxcar, but I don't know the PRR class they're painted for. Dennis ------- Forwarded Message Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 07:41:12 -0700 To: n-scale@lists.Stanford.EDU From: ceg@humboldt1.com (Jim Laney) Subject: [N] MT FS Hello- I'm having a moving sale! I have the following steam-era MT cars for sale. Most of the items are in mint condition. All others except GN 2538 have been lightly dusted with chalks for display. All cars are in original packaging and are unrun. Buyer pays shipping. series road # cond. price 56060 PRR 220455 mint $12 Al's Kustom 118 PRR 71065 mint $18 Al's Kustom 119 PRR 71416 mint $18 Al's Kustom 120 PRR 71419 mint $18 (These are 20000 series cars) Please email if you're interested, and thanks for looking at this. Jim Laney an N&W modeler ************************************************* If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send the message body of "unsubscribe n-scale" to majordomo@lists.stanford.edu ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:13:15 EST Subject: Re: New products -- inc. P2K PA1 in PRR! Content-Length: 1337 Jerry and all, The ALCo P A/B-1 were all received on the property in 1948 -49 and classed AP-3 then later changed to class AP-20 and then the A units were finely reclassed AFP-20. The B units remained in pasenger service and could often be seen spliced between two E-7's. They were all delivered in DGLE with 5 gold leaf stripes and were repainted in Tuscan Red and Dulux Gold stripes in about 1954 when the number boards were changed. The nose Keystone was changed with the PRR in the center deleting the engine numbers. At the same time the engines got new number boards and lost their coupler covers and I believe got the turbo charger modifaction. It is interesting that Pennsy did not equip their passenger units with Dynamic braking for a railroad with such tough grades and so much passenger traffic it is a wonder why they felt that this was not needed. BTW the ALCo nickname for this locomotive was the "Greyhound" and the F A/B's were the "Mastadon" strangely fitting. I love that smoke!!!! Watch for my article in Mainline Modeler. From Lines way out West Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:20:17 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Anyone have a track chart showing Cresson? Content-Length: 1339 Jerry and the group, According to Conrail's 1985 Central region, Allegheny Division Track Chart, the grade through Cresson including MO is 1.05%. Heading east is up hill. Heading west is down hill. The 1.05% begins a MP 249.03 which is just east of the Rt 53 overpass. It changes to .04% at MP 260.0, a bit west of Portage. John Cooper is also correct with his information from the 1950 track charts. the "Comp. Ruling Grade" of 1.56% east bound and 2.10% west bound over the hill takes into consideration the effects of the additional friction caused by the curves and is what the equalivelant grade on straight track would be. Apparently the grade was smoothed out over the years on the west side of the hill to a nice steady 1.05% between the points noted above by 1985. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 02:39 PM 1/30/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >Does anyone have a track chart showing Cresson, Pa.? > >In preparation for building a PRRMO module, I'd like to know the ruling >grade through Cresson. Specifically, through the interlocking plant at MO >tower. > >Please quote source. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:09:38 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: fwd: MT H31 FS Content-Length: 2039 Hi Dennis and all, Dennis, I'm surprised that you didn't immediately order it. I did and maybe I'll be lucky enough to get it. It is a number that I don't have yet. So this brings up some questions that are N-Scale specific: Dennis, you say that you currently have 6 different numbers. Would that be the original 5-pk plus a possible single car released at that time? Would the one for sale be the single released way back then? I have 6 numbers, not including the number for sale on the N-List. Do you have the "Buy War Bonds" one released some time within the last year or so? Oops, hold on a sec. I just dug out my "Buy War Bonds" hopper and it is actually a single-sheathed (outside-braced car). Can't verify accuracy of lettering as my resources don't go back into the Circle Keystone era yet. Can we Pennsy N-Scalers compile a list of the available numbers of all MT's painted for Pennsy and verify lettering accuracy? I'll list the ones in my fleet and post them shortly unless someone can refer me to a site where this info already exists. Unless I'm mistaken, Keystone Crossings, as well as Mark B.'s and Rob S.'s sites deal only with HO. I have asked my supplier to check into a bulk purchase of MT 56000's and 57000's for me as I can't see buying them one at a time at $10.00+ ea. I need at least 3 or 4 hundred and if anyone is interested in joining in we might be able to get a reasonable unit price. IF MT will sell them in large quantities undecorated. I know that MT requires about a 300 car minimum for special runs but I've been told that they won't decorate any cars for anyone in proto schemes they are reserving for themselves. Anyway, it's worth a shot. Thoughts? One last shot: I did get the MT hopper for sale on the N-Scale list. Wow! Keep on Trackin' Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:09:07 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/01/98 Content-Length: 865 > > > Personally I would prefer the resin kit as opposed to the brass wrapper, > only because I'm more comfortable working with plastic & resin then with > brass. > > Joe > ---------- Let me pass along a "me-too" on this...not because I don't like working with brass, but photoetching the rivets usually leaves them looking like buttons (round and flat) In reality, most rivets were either conical or semi-spherical in cross-section. And, yes, I would rather work with resin. Another question... > What class is the Jubilee, possibly a 2-4-2.? > A jubilee was Canadian Pacific for a 4-4-4. (see PRR class O-1) Bill Daniels ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: GLa, H31, MT comparison Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 15:24:11 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1839 The baby's asleep, so I finally dug out my copy of the Teichmoeller and Fisher hopper articles (thanks, Andy!), a Micro-Trains 56000 series hopper, and a scale rule, so here's a comparison table of the three hoppers. sills inside truck ex width in width height GLa 32'3 30'5 22'3 10'1 3/8 9'6 10' H31 32'9 31'6 22'9 10'6 1/8 9'9 10'3 7/8 MT 56000 33'6 32' 23'6 10'6 9'3 10'6 So the gross dimensions are, IMHO, close enough for N Scale (somebody will flame me for that :-). The Fisher article didn't include the height of the H31 end (the vertical part they paint reporting marks on), so I can't compare them; this would be where slope-sheet angles would show up. The MT car measures at 3', the GLa is 2'6 on the diagram. The slope-sheet angle would also affect there the bottom of the hopper is; on the H31 this was directly under the 3d and 5th rib, on the GLa and MT, the rib is over the hopper door. You win some, you lose some. As Claus pointed out, the GLa had a vertical brakewheel stem, but the H31 had the later gearbox on the car end; the MT hopper matches the H31 in this regard. Somebody (Ron?) asked if these hoppers made it to the black paint scheme; the Fisher Keystone article on H31s shows both H31 and H31c hoppers in black (plain keystone, gothic lettering). Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:42:56 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 2020 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > Maybe I am the last one on earth to notice this, but > in passing through Philly on Metroliner 114 on Friday > we passed a SEPTA train, and one of the cars was a > Silverliner clearly lettered > > P E N N S Y L V A N I A > > How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed > my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock > in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's > apparent indifference to its corporate image! > > John Bobsin > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". John & list members, That SEPTA car you saw with PENNSYLVANIA in the letterboard I'm told is a "reprint". I used to know a few SEPTA Regional Rail Division employees when I lived back there a few years ago. I asked them about it when I first saw one of those cars and was told it was because SEPTA greatfully bowed to many requests from PRR fans, etc., etc., to put back the old Pennsy name on some of the cars they inherited from the PRR as a bit of historical/nostalgia/don't-want-to-let-go-of-the-Pennsy heritage feeling among employees, and long-time riders. Soooo-o-o-o-o, they put it back on at least one of the cars (don't know if more were done or planned) and it's been there ever since. Even though I don't live there any more, I applaud SEPTA's agreement to do this and would like to see more. Gee, wouldn't it be great to see a couple of MP-54's plying the suburban rails again, maybe retrofitted with some air conditioning to cope with the humid summer heat, that is hidden so it wouldn't spoil the original lines of the cars. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Greenville 100t 15 panel hoppers Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 13:03:45 PST Content-Length: 426 Does anyone know if the PRR owned any Greenville 15 panel 100 ton hoppers? Number? Class? Kevin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 13:14:27 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: MT PRR Models (was H31) Content-Length: 1206 Greetings, There's been some discussion about Micro-Trains cars in PRR paint on the list recently. MT has done a lot of Pennsy cars, not to be at all confused with the ones sold by Al's Kustom Kars. I"ve heard Al buys MT cars whereever he can get them, strips them and has them repainted and printed. It's true that MT won't do a special run in a 100% prototype paint scheme for anyone (I have one of their pamphlets explaining their program). MT's most recent one was released 1-1-98; product #105020, a 14-panel fixed end gondola, class G31D, road #376611. Other recent PRR cars have been the 50" single door box car in green, as received from GAEX when they sold off their "DF" (Damage Free") fleet to a number of railroads. MT product #31270, Road #PRR47172. Also, another was MT product #78010 released in Nov '96. It's a class X41 50' double door auto box car with end doors, road #82023. There're are quite a few true MT Pennsy cars out there. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: fwd: MT H31 FS Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 16:29:59 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 2940 On 1 Feb, Ron Dugas wrote: > Dennis, I'm surprised that you didn't immediately order it. I did and > maybe I'll be lucky enough to get it. It is a number that I don't have > yet. I would have, except I got one at Springfield yesterday, at 20% off list. It really paid off to rummage through the bins at Tucker's, especially since the UMTRR listed that car as discontinued in 1996. This car does have end numbers, and the paint is quite a bit sharper than the five-car set. > Dennis, you say that you currently have 6 different numbers. Would that be > the original 5-pk plus a possible single car released at that time? The five-pack plus the car I got yesterday. I don't know when the five-pack was released. > I have 6 numbers, > not including the number for sale on the N-List. Do you have the "Buy War > Bonds" one released some time within the last year or so? Oops, hold on a > sec. I just dug out my "Buy War Bonds" hopper and it is actually a > single-sheathed (outside-braced car). Can't verify accuracy of lettering > as my resources don't go back into the Circle Keystone era yet. So it's a 57000 car? Is it lettered H31b, like it should be? The lettering should match the five-pack, except for avoiding the diagonal braces (P\ENN|S\YLV|ANI/A), the car number (with a / in the middle), dimensions, and it should say H31b where your other five cars say H31. Please send the number; I'll keep my eyes peeled for that one. > Can we Pennsy N-Scalers compile a list of the available numbers of all > MT's painted for Pennsy and verify lettering accuracy? I'll list the ones > in my fleet and post them shortly unless someone can refer me to a site > where this info already exists. Unless I'm mistaken, Keystone Crossings, > as well as Mark B.'s and Rob S.'s sites deal only with HO. I have a small compendium of N Scale PRR models at http://www.tiac.net/users/pam/dennis/prr/. Some of the links have expired (Atlas rearranged their web pages), and is otherwise a bit out of date. I'll be more than happy to update it, expand it, and keep it more up to date. > I have asked my supplier to check into a bulk purchase of MT 56000's and > 57000's for me as I can't see buying them one at a time at $10.00+ ea. I'm in for 20-30 of each, more if you can get them w/o trucks (I body-mount, even MT cars). > One last shot: I did get the MT hopper for sale on the N-Scale list. Wow! Congratulations! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:02:23 -0500 Content-Length: 2097 Anybody out there remember those deathless rhymes like: "there is nothing quite so holy as a local train to Paoli" or "there is no greater piece of junk than the local train to Manayunk" and "Old Maids never wed...", the rhyme to remember the order of the Main Line stations (Overbrook-Merion-Narbeth-Wynnewood..." There was a whole bunch of 'em but I can't recall them all. That was the Filthadelphia and PRR I remember when trains ran on branches and not routes. Hey, the red cars were older than dirt when they were taken out of service but a generation that grew up on Pioneers and Silverliners and Comets doesn't remember that what made the red cars bearable was the fact that you could open a window! Made Complete Richard F. Makse Twinney Pond Associates maxrail@worldnet.att.net >That SEPTA car you saw with PENNSYLVANIA in the letterboard I'm told is >a "reprint". I used to know a few SEPTA Regional Rail Division >employees when I lived back there a few years ago. I asked them about >it when I first saw one of those cars and was told it was because SEPTA >greatfully bowed to many requests from PRR fans, etc., etc., to put back >the old Pennsy name on some of the cars they inherited from the PRR as a >bit of historical/nostalgia/don't-want-to-let-go-of-the-Pennsy heritage >feeling among employees, and long-time riders. > >Soooo-o-o-o-o, they put it back on at least one of the cars (don't know >if more were done or planned) and it's been there ever since. Even >though I don't live there any more, I applaud SEPTA's agreement to do >this and would like to see more. > >Gee, wouldn't it be great to see a couple of MP-54's plying the suburban >rails again, maybe retrofitted with some air conditioning to cope with >the humid summer heat, that is hidden so it wouldn't spoil the original >lines of the cars. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 22:00:50 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1211 "Nothing quite as holy as a local to Paoli" I believe owes its existence to the numerous Pennsy executives who lived along the Main Line, thus no dispatcher would dare delay their journey home. Even today I suspect Amtrak Nos. 640 and 642 take on their share of employees enroute to 30th Street from Paoli and Ardmore. I've ridden Metroliner 101 in from NJ twice in recent weeks, and lots of folks get on at Princeton Junction and Trenton for 30th Street, murmuring their destinations to the conductor, so you know they have passes. The Paoli Local concept lives on! Yes, wouldn't it be neat to have some MP-54s running; I'll never forget the groan they made, at least in later years, on startup. BTW are there any recordings of the whistles on LIRR "Ping-Pong" MUs? Were these common to the rest of the Pennsy family? The "cracking" of their voices was like a bad bagpiper. Unforgettable. Anyway glad to hear that SEPTA has some commitment to the heritage. John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 00:11:09 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: "Modern Power for Today's Trains" Content-Length: 519 > The booklet was printed fairly early on in the PRR's dieselification when the PRR thought of lashups of locomotives as being one locomotive (mainly to appease the unions.) Earlier versions of this booklet exist from BEFORE the dieselization period. Known prior dates are 1939 and 1926. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:41:07 EST Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Content-Length: 868 In a message dated 98-02-01 00:08:59 EST, NKLoudon@compuserve.com writes: >P5 electrics had a 2-6-6-2 wheel arrangement. My upbringing was to use letters for driving wheels on electrics. Hence the P5's would have been 2-C-C-2. >Questions: Class R 4-8-4 ? I thought PRR shunned this wheel arrangement. Only for steam engines. The R-1 (4-D-4) was an experimental electric (just one built), which lost out to the GG-1 type when they built their fleet. >Also: 2-10-2 listed as "Jubilee" type. I had only associated this name >with CPR 4-4-4's. Isn't there another designation ? I have always used "Santa Fe" type for 2-10-2's. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:05:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: MT H31's (semi-long) Content-Length: 3348 Hi All, Dennis wrote: > ...I don't know when the five-pack was released. I'm not sure either but the boxes still say Kadee on them and I've had them for quite a while (at least 10 years?). > So it's a 57000 car? Is it lettered H31b, like it should > be? The lettering should match the five-pack, except for > avoiding the diagonal braces (P\ENN|S\YLV|ANI/A), the car > number (with a / in the middle), dimensions, and it should > say H31b where your other five cars say H31. Yes, it is 57100 to be exact. It is lettered H31B (Capitol B instead of lower case). B is approx. half the height of H31. The lettering is as you describe except that the brace that splits the road number goes the other direction: 220\877. In ASCII-(Definately not to scale): H31B- _____________________________________________ | | | \ BUY | \ WAR |BONDS/ | / | |__| | | | P\ ENN|S \ YLV|ANI /A | ck / | | | |__| | \ |220\877| / | / | |__| | | | \ |****\ | / | / | | | |__| | \ |**** \ | / | / ****| |__| | | | \|**** \|/******|/ H31B| |__| |~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~| | | |~| ~~~ ~~~ ck=Circle Keystone *=Small Lettering Lines above road name and below road number. Note stirrup and ladder differences. > Please send the number; I'll keep my eyes peeled for that one. MT number and road number above. Someone stated they thought this may be a special run by Al's Custom Cars? I don't believe so since it has an MT label and number. I believe that it was Rich Orr that stated that there were still three H31B's extant on PRR's last roster. Could I get the road number of those three cars? The 1953 ORER reprint shows 266 H31B's still on the roster. Great news for me! I love those hoppers. So where and how were they used in the 1939-1959 period? Revenue, MOW or ? Dennis stated: ..., and if you puttied in the seams on the 57000, or added diagonal braces to the 56000, it would make a good H31c. Except that the 56000 has seven vertical ribs and the H31C had five. ASCII: H31- ___________________________________________ | | | | | | | | __| | PE|NNSY|LVAN|IA | | | | | |__ | 220|573 | | | | ck | __| | | ***|*** | | |****| | | | |_____| ***|*** | | |****| | |__| | | ***|*** |****| |*H31|****| |__| |~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~| | | |~| ~~~ ~~~ ck=Circle Keystone *=Small Lettering Lines above road name and below road number. Note stirrup and ladder differences. Well, ASCII doesn't do too bad for PRR hoppers. Will do Gons next. BTW, Dennis, My 5-pack has the following road numbers. Agree with yours?: PRR 220156 PRR 220301 PRR 220538 PRR 220573 PRR 220819 Better close for now. See you tomorrow, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:04:55 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Content-Length: 1300 ---PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-01 00:08:59 EST, NKLoudon@compuserve.com writes: > > >P5 electrics had a 2-6-6-2 wheel arrangement. > My upbringing was to use letters for driving wheels on electrics. Hence > the P5's would have been 2-C-C-2. If one counts wheels, count wheels; if counting axles, count axles. 2-6-6-2 = 1-C-C-1, not 2-C-C-2 But, the P5 was a 4-6-4 (or 2-C-2) 2-6+6-2 was class FF, of which there were two: The original "Big Liz" (FF-1) which could and often did pull out any coupler then made. The 6 or 7 locomotives (FF-2) aquired from the Great Northern when they closed down their electrification. Bob Netzlof > > Rich Copeland > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:42:53 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1506 >Anybody out there remember those deathless rhymes like: >"Old Maids never wed...", the rhyme to remember the order of the Main Line >stations (Overbrook-Merion-Narbeth-Wynnewood..." "...and have babes rarely" (Ardmore-Haverford-Bryn Mawr-Radnor) This was the first thing I was taught as a freshman at Haverford College (1980), so I could find my home stop after a rowdy night of frat parties in Philly at U Penn, Drexel, Temple etc!!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Test post to check date (fwd) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:03:58 EST Content-Length: 443 > Sorry to interrupt, but the last few posts I received from the listserv > are dated 1/1/2000. Just checking the source. ^^^^ That's one server with no year-2K problem down, 10,000,000 to go... :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Request (was: PRR-Talk Digest) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:20:40 EST Content-Length: 680 > Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Gentlemen. I won't embarass those posting subjects like this by mentioning names. I would like to make one very simple request, however. Clearly some of you get prr-talk in digest form. Likely Jerry's server provides a subject similar to the above. Could you _please_ change the subject to something resembling what's being talked about? Use the original poster's subject when possible. Thanks. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Feb 98 10:26:29 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Modern Power for Today's Trains Content-Length: 1971 --====56515552535757564954===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Dan Cupper wrote: > >Earlier versions of this booklet exist from BEFORE the dieselization >period. Known prior dates are 1939 and 1926. Not to sound facetious, but what did PRR call "Modern Power" in 1939? Didn't their 'latest thing in steam' designs date at that point from the early 1920's, or was the booklet about the S1 'big engine' at the World's Fair? Wasn't this before the T1's/Q1,Q2's were even though of? The J1 was a war baby, so that leaves that design out. Or was the booklet talking about the electrification? Inquiring minds want to know -- Doug Drew --====56515552535757564954===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Cupper wrote:
>
>Earlier versions of this booklet exist from BEFORE the dieselization
>period. Known prior dates are 1939 and 1926.

Not to sound facetious, but what did PRR call "Modern Power" in 1939? Didn't their 'latest thing in steam' designs date at that point from the early 1920's, or was the booklet about the S1 'big engine' at the World's Fair? Wasn't this before the T1's/Q1,Q2's were even though of? The J1 was a war baby, so that leaves that design out. Or was the booklet talking about the electrification?
Inquiring minds want to know -- Doug Drew


 --====56515552535757564954===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Pennsy logo survivors (fwd) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:25:05 EST Content-Length: 1006 > Maybe I am the last one on earth to notice this, but > in passing through Philly on Metroliner 114 on Friday > we passed a SEPTA train, and one of the cars was a > Silverliner clearly lettered > > P E N N S Y L V A N I A > > How many are still out there? A bunch. (I'm being terribly specific, aren't I?) > Not sure whether this buoyed > my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock > in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's > apparent indifference to its corporate image! Not indifference. Lack of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Surely thinkest thou not, that given sufficient wherewithal, _any_ organization of a corporate stripe would not opt to plaster its image and likeness on any available flat surface? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Feb 98 10:30:41 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1394 --====49515251545154504853===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Richard F. Makse wrote: >Hey, the red cars were older than dirt when they were taken out of service >but a generation that grew up on Pioneers and Silverliners and Comets >doesn't remember that what made the red cars bearable was the fact that you >could open a window! Yes, that and, in event of a collision, the fact that an MP54 would probably go THROUGH a Silverliner... --====49515251545154504853===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard F. Makse wrote:

>Hey, the red cars were older than dirt when they were taken out of service
>but a generation that grew up on Pioneers and Silverliners and Comets
>doesn't remember that what made the red cars bearable was the fact that you
>could open a window!

Yes, that and, in event of a collision, the fact that an MP54 would probably go THROUGH a Silverliner... --====49515251545154504853===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:19:00 EST Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Content-Length: 707 In a message dated 98-02-01 00:08:59 EST, NKLoudon@compuserve.com writes: << Questions: Class R 4-8-4 ? I thought PRR shunned this wheel arrangement. In steam yes. The class R locomotives were electrics. Also: 2-10-2 listed as "Jubilee" type. I had only associated this name with CPR 4-4-4's. Isn't there another designation ? Previously corrected by original poster. I believe a 4-10-0 was a Mastodon and a 2-10-4 was a Texas. >> Correct on both accounts Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:40:59 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: H21a Content-Length: 828 I have assembled a 12-pack of Bowser H21a hopper cars. One thing missing on these, as well as any other hopper car kit I've seen, is the air line. I am assuming the air line ran along the side of the car, but have not found a photo good enough to confirm this. Am I correct? Can someone point me to a good side photo of one of these cars that shows some detail? Are there any other modifications/corrections that need to be made to make the model more prototypical? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Aero Train Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 11:32:48 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 647 Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. Damned that thing was ugly! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:39:35 EST Subject: Re: GLa, H31, MT comparison Content-Length: 351 How are you going to get past the sidesill, underframe, locking mechanism, end detail differences etc. between the Gla and H31? Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Form 1 vs. Form 4 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 11:53:56 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 719 I have two Public Timetables from 1954. One is labeled "Form 1", the other "Form 4". What's the difference? I did note that one of them, don't have in front of me, does not include the east to Toledo/Detroit route, possibly among others. Neither has north-south routes; both are considered "east-west timetables". --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:42:30 EST Subject: Re: Greenville 100t 15 panel hoppers Content-Length: 373 The last open top hopper the PRR ordered was the H43. While some of these were constructed by Greenville, they were not the 15 panel Greenville car. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: West Springfield show report.... Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 12:08:42 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2788 Hi all, Went to the West Springfield show yesterday. Damn is that place huge! Got there at 9:30 and didn't get out until a little after 4! (and no break for lunch!) How was Timmonium? (and when's the next one?!) Here's some stuff I saw/found out... Bethlehem Car Works, saw the K11 (I think) stock car conversion kit. Looks nice. He also repeated what others have said about the B60's, you should see them again in a month or two. No modifications or changes - same kit as before. Stewart, Steve was showing off pictures of their new plant. They now have enough space to get the equiptment to do their own injection molding... He also had a C628 running back and forth on a piece of test track! It's all done except for the fuel tank and window glazing! He said PRR should be sometime around May! Branchline Trains, saw cad drawings of their new 50' boxcars. They're Intermountain style kits with seperate details, proto 2000 trucks, etc... Should be about $11. They look like they're going to be great! They are doing 4 different ends styles, 3 roofs, different side sills, and different door openings! At least 1 combination will be dead on for PRR!!! Yeah! They really seem to be doing their homework on these! Atlas Talked with the guys from Atlas, asked when/if they plan on running the S1/S3 in PRR, they said it wouldn't be soon. When a friend asked him what about capturing that large PRR market out there, the Atlas rep responded with a "what large PRR market!" He then went on to say how the PRR market is drying up as many who remember the PRR are dying off... Tell that to Life-Like and others who seem to do well making PRR specific stuff or run extra's of PRR items! (ie 3 #'s of PRR GP9's) Other than that they had a flyer for PRR (and others) SW9's in O scale! Model Memories, PRR catanery bridges in HO! Nice!!!!!! A two track bridge is $20 assembled, $10 as a kit. They also have the transmission tower's that go on top as a seperate kit. They have a web site at http://www.info-4u.com/modelmemories/mproduct.htm I'm not sure if the PRR stuff is on their page yet though... Other than that, I picked up a 1930 ORER. Hopefully it won't be too long before I can add the PRR information to my PRR freight cars page... Also picked up a CD-rom of PRR photos. I've seen it advertised in some magazine... I haven't unwrapped it yet so I can't say it it's worth the $20... When I try it I'll post a short review. I'm sure I'm missing stuff but it's back to work I go! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:41:06 EST Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 811 In a message dated 98-02-01 11:56:54 EST, bobsin@nac.net writes: >How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed >my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock >in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's >apparent indifference to its corporate image! I commute on SEPTA, and I often see the 236. The keystone logo is gone, but the name is still untouched. I'll try to determine if there are any other "Pennsylvania" MU's, but it will have to be done by random observation. I'm sure nobody at SEPTA has this kind of information. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:08:34 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: H21a Content-Length: 1428 Hello all- Re Don's question about the H21a airline, I believe it was not visible but ran along the center sill. If one wanted to be really ambitious, one could replace some or all of the grabs. There was an article on upgrading the H21a in RMC a year or two ago. Jim On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Donald E. Harper, Jr. wrote: > I have assembled a 12-pack of Bowser H21a hopper cars. One thing missing on > these, as well as any other hopper car kit I've seen, is the air line. I am > assuming the air line ran along the side of the car, but have not found a photo > good enough to confirm this. Am I correct? > > Can someone point me to a good side photo of one of these cars that shows some > detail? > > Are there any other modifications/corrections that need to be made to make the > model more prototypical? > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:20:23 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/98 Content-Length: 337 Aloha, I was bothered by the reference to the P5 class motor as 2-C-C-2. It's wheel arrangement is 4-6-4 or 2-C-2. Eric ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:58:25 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Loram Rail Grinder in Altoona Content-Length: 369 Greetings to the group, For those who are interested in these sorts of things, the Loram rail grinder is here in Altoona. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 16:07:21 EST From: Subject: Poling cars Content-Length: 1133 I just read a brief article in a 1988 edition of MR that stated the PRR used a special car called a poling car to push freight cars on adjacent tracks. This car, for apparent safety reasons, was developed to eliminate a person from having to hold a pole in in the poling pockets until the locomotive could begin to push a freight car. The article stated there was a place for a crewman to sit in this car and a pole could be mechanically swung out from either side to engage an adjacent freight car. Question? - Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, flat, tender, etc? - What wre they classified as? - Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? - Were any kits ever made of these animals? - When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my future 1954 era layout? Hope someone out there can enlighten me/us. Regards, Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:18:38 EST Content-Length: 1439 Yes, there is one. I believe that it is number 369. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 11:56:29 -0500 bobsin@nac.net writes: >Maybe I am the last one on earth to notice this, but >in passing through Philly on Metroliner 114 on Friday >we passed a SEPTA train, and one of the cars was a >Silverliner clearly lettered > >P E N N S Y L V A N I A > >How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed >my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock >in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's >apparent indifference to its corporate image! > >John Bobsin > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:29:44 +0000 Subject: Book collection FOR SALE From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 3365 Hello to all, I am in the process of now converting to the evil empire (that being UP modeling in N-scale). Therefore I am looking to clear out some of my Pennsy books to make room for incoming books on UP and allow the buildup of my N-scale collection. I will process any requests as they come in. Shipping shall be $4 per order. Thanks all and sorry for any inconvenience. I also have a PSC N8 Cabin car in factory paint that I am looking to clear out for around $80 if any are interested. One other item not listed here that is also available is about 36 issues of Rails Northeast with cover dates from 1976-1980 and those will go for $30 plus buyer pays all shipping (these are magazines and very heavy but have a lot of PRR diagrams in them). Pennsy Power (Used, ripped cover) $30.00 Pennsy Power 2 (Used, no cover 1st edition signed by author) $30.00 Pennsy Power 3 (Excellent condition, good cover) $40.00 Pennsy Steam Years Volume 1 (Like new, excellent cover) $30.00 Pennsy Steam A to T (Good condition, good cover) $20.00 Pennsy Steam A Second Look (New, not read) $25.00 Keystone Steam and Electric (Good condition, engines not retired by $10.00 1954 highlight in high lighter) NJ International Classic Power 5 Pennsy Q Class (like new) $15.00 NJ International Classic Power 6 The many faces of the K-4 (excellent) $25.00 NJ International Classic Power 8 Pennsy M-1 Dual Service Engines $20.00 (like new) Pennsy Diesel Years Volume 1 (like new) $30.00 PDY Volume 2 (Excellent condition, ripped cover) $30.00 PDY Volume 3 (Excellent condition) $30.00 PDY Volume 4 (Excellent condition) $30.00 PDY Volume 5 (Excellent condition) $30.00 PDY Volume 6 (Excellent condition) $30.00 or get all 6 volumes for $150 PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 1 ALCo RS-series (excellent) $10.00 PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 2 Baldwin switchers (excellent) $10.00 PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 3 2nd Generation EMD (excellent) $10.00 Cross Continent Electrics (like new) $10.00 The Cars of the PRR by Wayner Publications (good condition) $5.00 PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol. 2 (like new) $30.00 Triumph 1: Altoona to Pitcairn $35.00 Horseshoe Heritage (like new) $5.00 The Pennsy in the Steel City (Like new) $10.00 PRR Elmira Branch (like new) $15.00 Pennsylvania Railroad the 1940s-1950s (excellent condition) $30.00 I Remember the Pennsy by Don Wood (Used, ripped cover) $20.00 The History of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Excellent condition) $10.00 Crossroads of Commerce (like new) $25.00 A Special History study PRR shops and works at Altoona, Pennsylvania $15.00 (this book is new and not read obtained from RR Memorial Museum at Altoona) Jeremy Helms _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:34:02 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 909 Jerry writes: >Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a >Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 >to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. >Damned that thing was ugly! ===== Well, it DID run on the NYC! I understand the styling was based on the 57 Chevy; would that there was an "old car" club for motor trains! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Drye, John" Subject: MT Hopper Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:45:49 -0500 Content-Length: 1033 Ron writes: > >I have asked my supplier to check into a bulk purchase of MT 56000's and >57000's for me as I can't see buying them one at a time at $10.00+ ea. >I need at least 3 or 4 hundred and if anyone is interested in joining in >we might be able to get a reasonable unit price. IF MT will sell them in >large quantities undecorated. I know that MT requires about a 300 car >minimum for special runs but I've been told that they won't decorate any >cars for anyone in proto schemes they are reserving for themselves. >Anyway, it's worth a shot. Thoughts? > Might be worth asking M-T about a proto scheme special run. If nothing else, it would let them know that there is interest in more PRR hoppers. Count me in for at least 50, if they are decorated, and a dozen if undec. Thanks, John Drye ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: GLa, H31, MT comparison Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:18:15 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 701 On 2 Feb, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > How are you going to get past the sidesill, underframe, locking mechanism, end > detail differences etc. between the Gla and H31? Excellent questions! Just the kind of thing I was hoping for when I asked. Again, my eyes are untrained and don't see details immediately; I have to really peer at both pix at the same time to pick up on a lot of this stuff. Although the locking mechanism is almost certainly invisible in N scale. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:41:13 EST Subject: Re: Wheel Arrangement Screwup! Content-Length: 504 In a message dated 98-02-02 06:56:34 EST, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: >Hrmph! > >Actually, the P5 had 4-6-4 (or 2-C-2) wheel >arrangement. Yes! You and several others caught my error in calling them 2-C-C-2's. That's what I get for doing the e-mail at 5:00 a.m. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:55:45 EST Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1614 In a message dated 98-02-01 16:23:52 EST, ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: >and was told it was because SEPTA >greatfully bowed to many requests from PRR fans, etc., etc., to put back >the old Pennsy name on some of the cars they inherited from the PRR as a I don't wish to come right out and accuse Charlie of being wrong, as I'm not 100% sure of these facts myself. BUT.......I have lived and worked in Philly for most of my life, including continuously for the past 20 years. I think that, if there were any kind of official SEPTA restoration effort on one or more of these MU's, two things would have happened. 1) They would have completely and correctly restored the exterior, which would include the keystone logo on the car ends. The car(s) in question have only the standard SEPTA logo. 2) This restoration would have been trumpeted in the PRRT&HS publications, Phila-NRHS's "Cinders", probably Railpace, etc., etc. I do not recall reading anything to this effect. I think it might be quite possible that some MU shop foreman was instructed to wipe out the "PENNSYLVANIA" name on all the affected cars, and purposely skipped one or two-- without the blessing of management. I have made up a checklist with car numbers 201 through 240 (I think PRR had 35 or 38 of those cars) and plan to check off the current paint status of each car as I see it. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:42:05 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Modern Power for Today's Trains Content-Length: 1492 > >Earlier versions of this booklet exist from BEFORE the dieselization > >period. Known prior dates are 1939 and 1926. > > Not to sound facetious, but what did PRR call "Modern Power" in 1939? > Didn't their 'latest thing in steam' designs date at that point from the > early 1920's, or was the booklet about the S1 'big engine' at the World's > Fair? Wasn't this before the T1's/Q1,Q2's were even though of? The J1 was a > war baby, so that leaves that design out. Or was the booklet talking about > the electrification? > Inquiring minds want to know -- Doug Drew Doug, the 1939 version of the book was titled "Modern Locomotives and Cars" and featured the first streamlined K4 (3768) and a *model* of the S1, as well as the GG1 and the P5a modified (streamlined) 2+C+2 motor, and the PRR's first diesel, EMD SW-class switcher 3908. But as you suggest, it also showed old faithful designs such as E6s, G5s, K4s, M1a. I1s, H10s, L1s, B6sb, and C1. Also shown are freight and passenger cars, some of the latter of which are old standbys like B60B, MP54, R50B, and M70, and others of which are Fleet of Modernism cars (P82R and D82R). Likewise, the 1926 version showed both locomotives and cars. The July 1949 version shows only locomotives. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:51:15 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Form 1 vs. Form 4 Content-Length: 1349 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > I have two Public Timetables from 1954. One is labeled "Form 1", the > other "Form 4". What's the difference? > The difference lies in the primeval origins of the Lines East and Lines West. Form 1 was originally a Lines West form that showed all principal east-west trains and all locals west of Pittsburgh. Although it later became the de facto PRR "system" timetable, it never really was that in truth. PRR did not actually have a "system" form. To its very end (July 30, 1967 issue), Form 1 fulfilled this function, and you'll find local service in Ohio and Indiana shown there. The prevailing PRR philosophy was that in the east, with its more dense population and multi-frequency routes, passengers could rely on (cheaper-to-produce) regional, local, and commuter forms. Form 4 served as a "principal east-west trains" timetable until it was abolished in the mid-1950s and replaced by Form 2, which was a "condensed through service" form. For all who might be interested, I have posted a compendium of known PRR public timetable form numbers on Mark Bej's PRR page. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:58:22 -0500 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: H21a Content-Length: 1117 At 09:40 AM 2/2/98 -0600, Don wrote: >I have assembled a 12-pack of Bowser H21a hopper cars. One thing missing on >these, as well as any other hopper car kit I've seen, is the air line. I am >assuming the air line ran along the side of the car, but have not found a photo >good enough to confirm this. Am I correct? > >Are there any other modifications/corrections that need to be made to make the >model more prototypical? Don, I would consider adding the air reservoir bracket. It was a fairly visible feature that could easily be added using a small piece of styrene channel. Forget the airline, it ran down the center sill. (The H31 modelers need to add this detail.) Since the H21 subclasses topped out at over 39,000 cars, good photos are found in many Pennsy books and hobby publications. I'm surprised you had a problem digging one up. Brian Brooks ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:30:21 EST Subject: Re: Poling cars Content-Length: 1103 In a message dated 98-02-02 19:35:22 EST, Kris Kollar writes: << Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, flat, tender, etc? - What wre they classified as? - Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? - Were any kits ever made of these animals? - When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my future 1954 era layout? >> Try pages 21 and 31 of Rails to Pittsburgh, W.A. Feibelman, Superior Publishing Company, Seattle, WA. for two views. I believe MR or RMC ran plans many years ago. Brass versions available on lthe consignment market. One of the experts can tell you about the date they phased out and whether they were "scratchbuilt" or built from other cars,but I think 1954 was pushing it. Most photos I saw were in the late 40's. In fact I don't ever remember seeing one with a diesel. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:37:09 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 965 Michael E. Allen wrote: > > Yes, there is one. I believe that it is number 369. > I have a couple of pictures of #269 with "PENNSYLVANIA" etched above the windows. (Not great pictures, one is a vid-cap) Posted at: http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ and also news:alt.binaries.pictures.rail -- _________ __\ _ /__"may your pantograph always reach the catenary" --------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- ---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- ----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ -----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ ------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:26:01 EST Subject: Re: Poling cars Content-Length: 1678 Kris, I thought that I had seen a photo of a poling car, but it seems I stumble on a photo of what the author calls an idler car. Your discription of a poling car is a bit suspicious, but it may be right. The idler car I found a picture of is in The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad; Wayner Publications, although I believe it may be out of print. The caption reads: "An idler car, used in yards, possibly pushed by a switcher for "poling", i.e. moving a car on the next track with a wooden pole diagonally set between corner sockets on the car and the idler" (page 60). I think this fits your bill. I examined the photo and I can see that the car likely wold work quite well as the "poling pockets" seem to be reinforced. The car is a flat car with a steel "hut" (for the lack of a better term) in the center of the car with clearances on both sides and handrails for added safety. The car would be a scratch build project but a rather easy one. There is no class markings in the photo on the car but the cars number is 497856 built in 4/02 . So far as using one on your circa 1954 PRR layout i would say go for it as I poling was still dome into the 70's an I believe that most of the BN crew I work around ( the company I work for leases half of the BN Salem, Or depot) still know "poling" and "chaining" but they pray they never have to use either technique. Hope this helps you out. Watching from LINES way out WEST . Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:40:24 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 2167 PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-01 16:23:52 EST, ironhorse@sprintmail.com writes: > > >and was told it was because SEPTA > >greatfully bowed to many requests from PRR fans, etc., etc., to put back > >the old Pennsy name on some of the cars they inherited from the PRR as a > > I don't wish to come right out and accuse Charlie of being wrong, > as I'm not 100% sure of these facts myself. BUT.......I have lived > and worked in Philly for most of my life, including continuously for > the past 20 years. > I think that, if there were any kind of official SEPTA restoration effort > on one or more of these MU's, two things would have happened. > > 1) They would have completely and correctly restored the > exterior, which would include the keystone logo on the car ends. > The car(s) in question have only the standard SEPTA logo. > > 2) This restoration would have been trumpeted in the PRRT&HS > publications, Phila-NRHS's "Cinders", probably Railpace, etc., etc. > I do not recall reading anything to this effect. > > I think it might be quite possible that some MU shop foreman was > instructed to wipe out the "PENNSYLVANIA" name on all the > affected cars, and purposely skipped one or two-- without the > blessing of management. > > I have made up a checklist with car numbers 201 through 240 > (I think PRR had 35 or 38 of those cars) and plan to check off > the current paint status of each car as I see it. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". You're quite possibly correct. I never said the information I got was actual truth--only what was told to me. If we can get at the truth of why some of the cars still have PENNSYLVANIA in the letterboards, so much the better for us all. CF ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Poling cars From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 00:02:16 EST Content-Length: 2026 See page 100 of Wayner, Robert J, Ed. , "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" for a diagram. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Mon, 2 Feb 98 16:07:21 EST writes: >I just read a brief article in a 1988 edition of MR that stated the PRR >used a special car called a poling car to push freight cars on adjacent >tracks. This car, for apparent safety reasons, was developed to eliminate >a person from having to hold a pole in in the poling pockets until the >locomotive could begin to push a freight car. The article stated there was >a place for a crewman to sit in this car and a pole could be mechanically >swung out from either side to engage an adjacent freight car. > >Question? >- Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, >flat, tender, etc? Looks like a 30 foot flat. >- What wre they classified as? SC >- Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? >- Were any kits ever made of these animals? >- When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into >my future 1954 era layout? > >Hope someone out there can enlighten me/us. > >Regards, > >Kris Kollar > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Form 1 vs. Form 4 (fwd) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 8:59:21 EST Content-Length: 996 Jerry writes: > I have two Public Timetables from 1954. One is labeled "Form 1", the > other "Form 4". What's the difference? > > I did note that one of them, don't have in front of me, does not include > the east to Toledo/Detroit route, possibly among others. Neither has > north-south routes; both are considered "east-west timetables". Jerry, that's what http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/doc_names.html ("Index Of PRR Document Names and Numbers") is for. The passenger forms were compiled by Dan Cupper (whom I now invite to take a deep bow for the amount of work he did). From that table, Form 1: "System" -- actually, through east-west service and locals west of Pittsburgh Form 4: Condensed through east-west service -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: MT H31's (semi-long) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 09:37:20 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 2213 On 2 Feb, Ron Dugas wrote: > Dennis wrote: > > > ...I don't know when the five-pack was released. > > I'm not sure either but the boxes still say Kadee on them and I've had > them for quite a while (at least 10 years?). I just got mine on consignment at Ken's a month or so ago, but yes, it's clearly Kadee #56062. The PRR history on the back is a hoot! > Yes, it is 57100 to be exact. It is lettered H31B [...] > 220\877 Your diagram matches the photos in the Fisher article exactly, and the number is in the proper series, 220842-221341. > Someone stated they thought this may be a > special run by Al's Custom Cars? I don't believe so since it has an MT > label and number. Makes sense to me! > So where and how were they used > in the 1939-1959 period? Revenue, MOW or ? I would ASSume revenue service, if they were still bothering to rebuild right up to PC day. Anything in MoW service is generally allowed to decay into unusability, judging from the photos. > > ..., and if you puttied in the seams on the 57000, or added diagonal > > braces to the 56000, it would make a good H31c. > > Except that the 56000 has seven vertical ribs and the H31C had five. Eeek. Like I said, my eyes are untrained. They're good, they just need a little seasoning. Garlic, maybe. Still, the putty idea sounds good. > BTW, Dennis, My 5-pack has the following road numbers. Agree with yours?: > > PRR 220156 > PRR 220301 > PRR 220538 > PRR 220573 > PRR 220819 Exactly. Interestingly enough, the Fisher article gives H31 number series of 220301-220841 and 222051-222670. Does anybody know what car 220156 should be? I'm planning to renumber mine, and add end numbers to all five. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:41:14 EST Subject: MP54 vs. Silverliner (was: R; Pennsy logo survivors) Content-Length: 1772 In a message dated 98-02-02 12:37:42 EST, Doug Drew wrote: << Subj: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Date: 98-02-02 12:37:42 EST Richard F. Makse wrote: >Hey, the red cars were older than dirt when they were taken out of service >but a generation that grew up on Pioneers and Silverliners and Comets >doesn't remember that what made the red cars bearable was the fact that you >could open a window! Yes, that and, in event of a collision, the fact that an MP54 would probably go THROUGH a Silverliner... -------------------- >> I would argue the contrary: the Silverliner uses the shotwelded construction technique developed by Budd, and the body and its skin are one unit and maybe the strongest thing ever built on a size/weight basis. The MP54 has a truss frame below the window line with a separate skin riveted on, which would allow some telescoping. Look for wreck photos of a LIRR crash (1950's) of MP54's and the Frankford Junction crash (WWII) with P70's. The only Budd-style car that I recall being crushed beyond the vestibule was the the lead Amfleet car in the Gunpowder Bridge crash on the NEC. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL P.S. Riding in the MP54's with the windows open was nice until the first tests of the original Metroliner cars between New Brunswick and Princeton Junction: the cars with wooden window frames were soon isolated in Philadelphia suburban service, and only cars with metal window frames were allowed out to play with the Metroliners. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:41:16 EST Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Content-Length: 1921 In a message dated 98-02-02 17:40:17 EST, Rich Copeland wrote: << Subj: Re: Pennsy logo survivors Date: 98-02-02 17:40:17 EST In a message dated 98-02-01 11:56:54 EST, bobsin@nac.net writes: >How many are still out there? Not sure whether this buoyed >my spirits to still see Standard Railroad passenger stock >in revenue service, or maybe shake my head over SEPTA's >apparent indifference to its corporate image! I commute on SEPTA, and I often see the 236. The keystone logo is gone, but the name is still untouched. I'll try to determine if there are any other "Pennsylvania" MU's, but it will have to be done by random observation. I'm sure nobody at SEPTA has this kind of information. Rich Copeland >> My feeling is that SEPTA did its best to remove the PENNSYLVANIA and READING markings from the cars, but found that the method used by Budd to get the letterboard marking in place was truly "for the ages"; I believe that the stainless panels were acid etched with the lettering. For several years, several of the cars rode around with faded versions of the letterboard, looking as if many, many, hours had been spent by someone with a wirebrush trying and failing to eliminate the ghost of the lettering. When several of the cars were rehabbed by Morrison-Knudson, they were returned with a new plain stainless steel panel riveted over the old letterboard (it would have been essentially impossible to remove/replace the old letterboard, the Budd shotwelding construction technique made the even the letterboard part of the overall strength girder of the car). Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:40:50 +0000 Subject: Re: Book Collection FOR SALE From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1145 Hello to all, I just am posting this because I am getting a good number of requests for books already sold. The following is what is left. Most items already sold were requested by at least 3 individuals. If you want to make an offer for the remaining books (seems to high priced) feel free. Pennsy Steam Years Volume 1 (Like new, excellent cover) $30.00 NJ International Classic Power 5 Pennsy Q Class (like new) $15.00 NJ International Classic Power 6 The many faces of the K-4 (excellent) $25.00 Cross Continent Electrics (like new) $10.00 PRR Elmira Branch (like new) $15.00 I Remember the Pennsy by Don Wood (Used, ripped cover) $20.00 Jeremy Helms _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:47:32 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Poling cars Content-Length: 1915 >Question? >- Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, >flat, tender, etc? >- What wre they classified as? >- Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? >- Were any kits ever made of these animals? >- When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my >future 1954 era layout? Kris, These cars really existed, and a scratch built one was in the Model Contest at the NMRA national (photo in the NMRA bulletin, MR, and other pubs?). The car has been made in brass, and one is for sale at Peach Creek Hobbies 2064 PRR NJCB Poling car w/o Trucks M of W $90.00 This car looks like a shorty flat with a shelter in the middle and two arms sticking out on pivots from the center of each side. I would guess that they weren't very common! Although they had to be safer than manual poling! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:18:35 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 968 Greetings to Jerry and the group, The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR article. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 11:32 AM 2/2/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a >Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 >to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. >Damned that thing was ugly! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 03 Feb 98 11:11:48 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Poling cars Content-Length: 11019 --====49555648505048495650===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Kris -- There is a drawing in an old Model Railroader I own. It's at home, so I can't get you the month and year right now. The car drawing I saw (by J. Harold Geissel) was lettered for Sunbury yard, but I have seen pictures of them in use at Pitcairn yard, as well. I think the one in the drawing was built pre-WW1. I believe these cars were purpose-built, rather than converted from a flat car or other type of car. This is because the push-poles were an integral part of the car, connected by a stout hinge and diagonal brace with an actuating lever that went into the 'cabin' on the car. When retracted, the pole 'notched into' the frame of the car, I assume for clearance in tight areas, and so not to clobber any inattentive yard men as the car rolled by. On the drawing I saw, one pole faced in one direction, and the one on the other side faced the opposite direction -- the direction of poling being on the engineer's side as the car was pushed in front of the engine (or were they pulled?). My assumption is that these cars were used to shove two cuts of cars down yard tracks simutaneously. My theory is that an engine could probably handle pushing cuts of cars on its own track and an adjacent one, but pushing three cuts was too much to ask. It seems these poling cars would have had to have been more stoutly-built than a typical flat car, due to the additional sideward stresses on them . Does anyone know how many cars could be poled in one cut, in this manner? Most poling I have heard of was of single cars, to move them into a track where an engine wasn't permitted, or move a car because it fouled a switch where the coupler couldn't be gotten-to by the engine. It seems the stresses of poling a large cut of cars using a pole pushing on the corner pole pocket would have crumpled most wooden cars of the day, as they weren't designed for this kind of stress. Was it done mainly on all-steel cars, such as hopper cars? For strings of empty cars only? I think poling was discontinued for a couple of reasons: 1) Safety. Poling must have been 'hazardous duty', even with a purpose-built car to do the work. Since the poled cut of cars didn't have a direct connection to the pushing locomotive, all kinds of mischief could result if extreme care wasn't taken in moving the cars. I assume a brakeman would have had to ride the poled cut, to control it, as well as a man keeping the pole in the poling pocket of the car(s) being pushed. This method of moving cars may have gone out of favor as yards became more automated and less-labor intensive. 2) The increasing weight of cars in general. As cars grew in dimension, and went from all-wood construction to steel, their light weights and carrying capacities increased, allowing less cars to be poled efficiently in each cut. 3) General lessening of traffic. It seems the need for use of poling cars was engendered by traffic pressures on yards, and the need to keep yards as empty as possible as quickly as possible. Having to jockey up and down tracks in a yard to keep cars moving through it (especially in yards the size of PRR's) was time-consuming, hence the idea behind poling a cut of cars while pushing another. As traffic began to wane in the 50's, there was less pressure to have to move cars using this method. I think a functional poling car working a large yard would be a really neat "Pennsy" type of thing to model in the right era, perhaps with some kind of radio controlled servo to actuate the pole. One would have to have cars weighted to the NMRA standards, at least, to prevent pushing them off the tracks. -- Doug Drew kkollar wrote: >I just read a brief article in a 1988 edition of MR that stated the PRR >used a special car called a poling car to push freight cars on adjacent >tracks. This car, for apparent safety reasons, was developed to eliminate >a person from having to hold a pole in in the poling pockets until the >locomotive could begin to push a freight car. The article stated there was >a place for a crewman to sit in this car and a pole could be mechanically >swung out from either side to engage an adjacent freight car. > >Question? >- Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, >flat, tender, etc? >- What wre they classified as? >- Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? >- Were any kits ever made of these animals? >- When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my >future 1954 era layout? > >Hope someone out there can enlighten me/us. > >Regards, > >Kris Kollar > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====49555648505048495650===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kris --
There is a drawing in an old Model Railroader I own. It's at home, so I can't get you the month and year right now. The car drawing I saw (by J. Harold Geissel) was lettered for Sunbury yard, but I have seen pictures of them in use at Pitcairn yard, as well. I think the one in the drawing was built pre-WW1.

I believe these cars were purpose-built, rather than converted from a flat car or other type of car. This is because the push-poles were an integral part of the car, connected by a stout hinge and diagonal brace with an actuating lever that went into the 'cabin' on the car. When retracted, the pole 'notched into' the frame of the car, I assume for clearance in tight areas, and so not to clobber any inattentive yard men as the car rolled by. On the drawing I saw, one pole faced in one direction, and the one on the other side faced the opposite direction -- the direction of poling being on the engineer's side as the car was pushed in front of the engine (or were they pulled?).

My assumption is that these cars were used to shove two cuts of cars down yard tracks simutaneously. My theory is that an engine could probably handle pushing cuts of cars on its own track and an adjacent one, but pushing three cuts was too much to ask. It seems these poling cars would have had to have been more stoutly-built than a typical flat car, due to the additional sideward stresses on them
.
Does anyone know how many cars could be poled in one cut, in this manner? Most poling I have heard of was of single cars, to move them into a track where an engine wasn't permitted, or move a car because it fouled a switch where the coupler couldn't be gotten-to by the engine. It seems the stresses of poling a large cut of cars using a pole pushing on the corner pole pocket would have crumpled most wooden cars of the day, as they weren't designed for this kind of stress. Was it done mainly on all-steel cars, such as hopper cars? For strings of empty cars only?

I think poling was discontinued for a couple of reasons:
1) Safety. Poling must have been 'hazardous duty', even with a purpose-built car to do the work. Since the poled cut of cars didn't have a direct connection to the pushing locomotive, all kinds of mischief could result if extreme care wasn't taken in moving the cars. I assume a brakeman would have had to ride the poled cut, to control it, as well as a man keeping the pole in the poling pocket of the car(s) being pushed. This method of moving cars may have gone out of favor as yards became more automated and less-labor intensive.
2) The increasing weight of cars in general. As cars grew in dimension, and went from all-wood construction to steel, their light weights and carrying capacities increased, allowing less cars to be poled efficiently in each cut.
3) General lessening of traffic. It seems the need for use of poling cars was engendered by traffic pressures on yards, and the need to keep yards as empty as possible as quickly as possible. Having to jockey up and down tracks in a yard to keep cars moving through it (especially in yards the size of PRR's) was time-consuming, hence the idea behind poling a cut of cars while pushing another. As traffic began to wane in the 50's, there was less pressure to have to move cars using this method.
I think a functional poling car working a large yard would be a really neat "Pennsy" type of thing to model in the right era, perhaps with some kind of radio controlled servo to actuate the pole. One would have to have cars weighted to the NMRA standards, at least, to prevent pushing them off the tracks.
-- Doug Drew

kkollar wrote:
>I just read a brief article in a 1988 edition of MR that stated the PRR
>used a special car called a poling car to push freight cars on adjacent
>tracks. This car, for apparent safety reasons, was developed to eliminate
>a person from having to hold a pole in in the poling pockets until the
>locomotive could begin to push a freight car. The article stated there was
>a place for a crewman to sit in this car and a pole could be mechanically
>swung out from either side to engage an adjacent freight car.
>
>Question?
>- Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola,
>flat, tender, etc?
>- What wre they classified as?
>- Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books?
>- Were any kits ever made of these animals?
>- When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my
>future 1954 era layout?
>
>Hope someone out there can enlighten me/us.
>
>Regards,
>
>Kris Kollar
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====49555648505048495650===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 03 Feb 98 11:56:48 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 1414 --====52535750545652524955===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" rboydrrs wrote >I understand the styling was based on the 57 >Chevy; Which is interesting, as the train was running in 1956. Perhaps the Chevy was based on the Aerotrain. I think the thing was a combination of a Chevy sedan 'turret roof' for the cab and Flxible/GM bus bodies for the rest, and it rode worse than either. -- Doug Drew --====52535750545652524955===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rboydrrs wrote
>I understand the styling was based on the 57
>Chevy;

Which is interesting, as the train was running in 1956. Perhaps the Chevy was based on the Aerotrain.
I think the thing was a combination of a Chevy sedan 'turret roof' for the cab and Flxible/GM bus bodies for the rest, and it rode worse than either.
-- Doug Drew

 --====52535750545652524955===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: RE: Aero Train Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:01:15 -0500 Content-Length: 1383 I have a Varney AeroTrain loco I got as part of an HO lot I purchased some years ago. My Varney is a dummy unit in original box with instructions. There is no indication of what the powered mechanism was like. > >The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm >pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier >model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have >been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If >anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR >article. > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA > >At 11:32 AM 2/2/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >>Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a >>Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 >>to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. >>Damned that thing was ugly! > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: What If the PRR had Survived? Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:07:26 PST Content-Length: 1607 To all, As some of you may know, Jeremy Helms and I have been working on a "What If" for the PRR. We are getting ready to place the information we have come up with on the net on my web page. I am wondering if anyone else is interested in this project? If so, please email eather me or Jeremy. This is not such a strange idea by the way, the Erie RR web site has had a talk group dealing with the same subject for the Erie for over three years now. And there is a "what if" BN had never happened group. I'm told that there is even a "what if" convention, which tells me this is becomming quite popular. To those who are, for some reason, against this idea, please keep your comments to yourselves. The last time I posted this request, I got several nasty emails. After all, in model railroading, anything is possible, it's all up to the imagination. History professors often assign a project to student, instructing them to pick a turning point in history, and change one thing, then determine the consiquences. We are mearly doing the same thing, and looking for others likewise interested. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:36:30 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 501 In a message dated 98-02-03 13:27:05 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I think the thing was a combination of a Chevy sedan 'turret roof' for the cab >> I heard that the chrome trim strip on the cab was identical to and could be replaced with the one from the car. John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Cyber chapter proposal Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 13:51:56 EST Content-Length: 459 Gents: As of 2 more votes today and yesterday (thank you), we now have 43 PRRTHS members and 20 nonmembers-potential-members FOR the chapter. (None against. By interesting coincidence, I'm also not counting votes against. :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Aero Train Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 14:25:51 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1276 I think the Helix Humper folks make a power kit for the aerotrain. I've never seen it but I think I saw a magazine ad for it a while ago. I powered mine using an Athearn S12 drive. It was pretty simple. I cut and lengthened (with some square brass tubing) the S12 frame and took the front set of wheels off of the rear truck. I think I drilled and tapped a hole and used a screw the keep the rear truck firmly fixed (otherwise with only one wheelset it won't stay level!) The only other thing that I remember having to do is add shims to the Athearn frame to better fit the notches on the Bowser body. I think the front wheel spacing is off by about 6 scale inches but it's not really noticable. It runs great, the only problem with it is that at speed the rear coaches bounce off the track at some switches! I added an ounce to each coach but I guess they still need a bit more! Now I just have to figure out how to match the paint for the three undec coaches I got. If anyone wants more detail on the powering let me know... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Aero Train Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:50:59 -0500 Content-Length: 1670 Drew, Actually, ALCO Products makes or did make (not sure if it is still available) a powering kit for the Bowser/ Varney Aero Train. Perhaps if you are interested you might give them a call. I don't have the number handy, but I can look it up if you need it. Joe Zappa ---------- > From: Drew McGhee > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: Aero Train > Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 10:18 AM > > Greetings to Jerry and the group, > > The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm > pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier > model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have > been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If > anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR article. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > > At 11:32 AM 2/2/98 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: > >Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone was selling a > >Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show for only $75! If I had had $75 > >to blow, I surely would have bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. > >Damned that thing was ugly! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Cyber chapter agenda - help Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:00:01 EST Content-Length: 776 Guys: Somewhere in the deep recesses of my memory supposedly was the proposed agenda for the proposed cyber proposed chapter proposal. I lost it. I'm therefore re-asking any or all of you to submit suggestions of topics. I'll (this time) duly place them up on the cyber chapter temporary home page at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Cyber/ Proposed support for an email list I already have. Proposed Web site creation/editing/upkeep/etc. I already have. Proposed CyberNewsletter (email, web) I already have. What else? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: RE: What If the PRR had Survived? Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:55:22 -0500 Content-Length: 493 > As some of you may know, Jeremy Helms and I have been working on a > "What If" for the PRR > This isn't that hard. They just would have bought at least a few of whatever EMD and GE have offered over the past 30 years and painted them black, uh Brunswick green. =B^) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Aero Train Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:18:59 -0500 Content-Length: 1419 Continuing the Aero Train saga, I saw a reprise of the RR show on the History Channel last night, and there was a brief clip of the Aero Train going around Horseshoe Curve, of all places. The old Kemtron firm made a power conversion kit for Varney's Aero Train. They also marketed some very nicly done brass castings for the truck/journal/suspension pieces, replacing the toy-like parts of the original, making the model look just like the real thing. These brass castings were re-run on a limited bases about ten years ago by a different outfit, and are no longer in production. But, any die-hard SPF simply's gotta have one, and Bowser sells it, although unpowered. Wouldn' be too hard to rig up a power drive. Doesn' have to be a good one, since the 1:1 scale version had a crappy drive train--almost like a spring drive shafted 1963 LeMans. Cheap, light, and underpowered. But, the Aero Train is the best looking thing Varney ever turned out. I still have one, and I think it really speaks to a design era that is, thankfully, gone. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, watching the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today. Must be a maintenance window--or something, ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:45:09 +0000 From: Iain A Fraser Subject: Re: Cyber chapter proposal Content-Length: 467 Hi guys..... Sorry to be a pain but... what is this about. I don't think the original messages made it this side of the pond. Can someone bring me up to date. Thanks Iain Iain Fraser AEROLITE BOOKTRADERS rail books at www.aerolite.u-net.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:14:20 EST Subject: Re: Construction Standards (fwd) Content-Length: 2449 *Whew* I'll never get that far behind in my e-mail again. It took me more than three hours to get all read and disposed of. It was reall impressive to see a graphic representation in the interest that's being generated by PRRMO. On module standards, I vote for 30" largely because I've got the framing of two modules completed that are 30" inches wide. On the issue of curves, the wider the better, given that most prototye curvess, if accurately modeled would be, oh, 107" radii in HO. 36" is fine, 42" or more would be vetter but unrealistic because of sace limitations. So I cast my vo0te for 36". On track, it's Code 100, fersure, even though that's a bit light for Pennsy Mainline high iron As one who probably will be confined to a wheel chair at some point in the future, I'd like to pleas the case for "wheelchair height" modules. 40" to the railhead is fine for wheelchair viewing and acceptible for most wheelchair operations. On an earlier posting, I saw a reference to a roadbed of either 1/4" cork or 1/4" homasote. I've never seen 1/4" homasote, only 1/2". I believe that a roapdbed should be required and that it be either cork, homasote or some other acceptible sound deadening material. I don not think specifying width is that important just as long as the module sides, module ends and railhead are of common height.; On turnouts, I'd like to see the standard of #6 or long be applied to mainline turnouts only to insure problem-free running and because I own a number of #6 point and frog assemblies I picked up for a song. Allowing smaller turnouts as part of a module's setup allows for greater fllexibility. And for the real ambitious, the "57 PRR Standard MOW Plans books has a table ol dimensions that lists a #5 turnout (curved track with a !77' radius (24.6" in HO) up to a #20 (In HO that's a 474.7"-radius curved track) (#5.289, #6, #8, #10, #5 and #20 are the sizes of turnouts. Is it correct to assume that all turnout will be hand thrown? I"m just hoping that I can find a number of Lines West fans like my self so I'll have enogh modules ro reach the return loops. The other points are pretty in line with the NMRA and FreeMo standards. Tom V> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:45:39 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: MP54 vs. Silverliner (was: R; Pennsy logo survivors) Content-Length: 1650 BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > >> Richard F. Makse wrote: > Yes, that and, in event of a collision, the fact that an MP54 would > probably go THROUGH a Silverliner... > -------------------- >> > > I would argue the contrary: the Silverliner uses the shotwelded construction > technique developed by Budd, and the body and its skin are one unit and maybe > the strongest thing ever built on a size/weight basis. The MP54 has a truss > frame below the window line with a separate skin riveted on, which would allow > some telescoping. Look for wreck photos of a LIRR crash (1950's) of MP54's > and the Frankford Junction crash (WWII) with P70's. The only Budd-style car > that I recall being crushed beyond the vestibule was the the lead Amfleet car > in the Gunpowder Bridge crash on the NEC. > -------------------------------- But don't forget the ATSF Budd RDC car that turned over, apparently from excessive speed, on a 30 mph curve in California in the mid to late 1950's. It reportedly unzipped itself lengthwise, spilling and killing passengers into the debris. In the 1970's a heavyweight IC commuter MU train rear-ended a new, lightweight commuter MU train and totally telescoped into the rear car. I don't know who built the newer cars, but they were no match for the 1920 (?) vintage heavyweights. Steve Bartlett Working from memory with the possibility of correction as to details. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:53:28 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 906 Drew McGhee wrote: >> > The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm > pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier > model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have > been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If > anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR article. > Kemtron produced brass running gear parts and power for the Varney Aerotrain. Parts might still be available from whoever now has the HO Kemtron line (PSC?) This was reviewed in the July, 1956, Model Railroader Magazine, according to the index. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:00:18 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Dumb Question Dept. Content-Length: 461 Just a quick thank you to everyone who responded to my question about accessing non-web discussion groups. I have not had time yet to dig into the areas suggested, but have saved the messages for study in the very near future. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:55:12 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: What If the PRR had Survived? Content-Length: 2200 Kevin Tully wrote: > > To all, > > As some of you may know, Jeremy Helms and I have been working on a > "What If" for the PRR. We are getting ready to place the information we > have come up with on the net on my web page. I am wondering if anyone > else is interested in this project? If so, please email eather me or > Jeremy. This is not such a strange idea by the way, the Erie RR web > site has had a talk group dealing with the same subject for the Erie for > over three years now. And there is a "what if" BN had never happened > group. I'm told that there is even a "what if" convention, which tells > me this is becomming quite popular. > To those who are, for some reason, against this idea, please keep your > comments to yourselves. The last time I posted this request, I got > several nasty emails. After all, in model railroading, anything is > possible, it's all up to the imagination. History professors often > assign a project to student, instructing them to pick a turning point in > history, and change one thing, then determine the consiquences. We are > mearly doing the same thing, and looking for others likewise interested. > > Kevin J. Tully > C.E.O. > FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. > "The Allegheny Route" > A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Kevin (and Jeremy), Great idea! Immagination is the mother of invention (or in this case, of continuation). My mythical subsidiary of the continuing PRR is called the JUNIATA CENTRAL, and is the repository for all the foreign power that pleases me, as well as some PRR equipment "transferred" to it. CF ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:27:36 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Decals in N for Hoopers Content-Length: 573 Hello! I wrote a while ago about getting some decals for my PRR hoppers in Nscale. I got an address for Northeastern Decals and I shot a letter off to them. I haven't heard a thing though and was wondering if anyone had a phone number. Or how about other suppliers since Microscale doesn't make decals for the PRR hoppers..... Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Looking for P2K SW9's Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 21:44:12 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 749 If anyone knows of a mail order place (or hobby shop) that still has PRR Proto 2000 SW9's in stock, let me know. I still want to buy both road numbers and the supply has dried up. There were none to be found at the Timonium Show and all major mail order houses from the recent Model Railroader are sold out. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:31:50 EST Content-Length: 1789 I stand corrected on the car number. I was transcribing field notes made in the summer of 94 when the pan failed and it took down some of the wire near Grundy. The Transportation Supervisor borrowed a hank of rope off of my truck so that the AMTK Class "A" could tie it down. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:37:09 -0500 Chris Brandt writes: >Michael E. Allen wrote: >> >> Yes, there is one. I believe that it is number 369. >> > >I have a couple of pictures of #269 with "PENNSYLVANIA" etched above >the >windows. (Not great pictures, one is a vid-cap) Posted at: > >http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > >and also > >news:alt.binaries.pictures.rail > >-- > _________ > __\ _ /__"may your pantograph always reach the catenary" >--------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- >---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- >----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ >-----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ >------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:30:55 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 1133 >rboydrrs wrote >>I understand the styling was based on the 57 Chevy; > >Which is interesting, as the train was running in 1956. Perhaps the Chevy >was based on the Aerotrain. >I think the thing was a combination of a Chevy sedan 'turret roof' for >the cab and Flxible/GM bus bodies for the rest, and it rode worse than >either. >-- Doug Drew ======= Actually, the 57 Chevy was the last year of that body style, which had been introduced in 1955. That, in turn, was a stripped down Cadillac which had been around since something like 1953. (Rest assured, I detest automobiles; but I have a friend who is into 57s) Regards, Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy logo survivors From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:31:50 EST Content-Length: 1998 I stand corrected on the car number. I was transcribing field notes made in the summer of 94 when the pan failed and it took down some of the wire near Grundy. The Transportation Supervisor borrowed a hank of rope off of my truck so that the AMTK Class "A" could tie it down. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:37:09 -0500 Chris Brandt writes: >Michael E. Allen wrote: >> >> Yes, there is one. I believe that it is number 369. >> > >I have a couple of pictures of #269 with "PENNSYLVANIA" etched above >the >windows. (Not great pictures, one is a vid-cap) Posted at: > >http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > >and also > >news:alt.binaries.pictures.rail > >-- > _________ > __\ _ /__"may your pantograph always reach the catenary" >--------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- >---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- >----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ >-----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ >------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 05:40:40 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 588 Somebody once told me that the cars actually were bus bodies. Ugly? Sure! But it was fast. I have a Phila Division ETT which has lots of specially-increased speed limits just for the Aerotrain. What other equipment could make a round trip to Pittsburgh in a day, every day? Of course, the passengers paid for that speed, and I don't mean financially! Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 02:28:22 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: IT'S NEW...DIFFERENT Content-Length: 2223 Hi All, So reads the top of page 293 in the March 1956 Official Guide. It goes on to say: The Pennsy AeroTrain Now in Daily Service until May 25th between NEW YORK-PITTSBURGH and many intermediate points Daily Schedule Westbound Eastbound (Read Down) (Read Up) v7:55am Lv. New York (Penn Station) Ar. 11:30pm v8:09am Lv. Newark Ar. 11:05pm v8:49am Lv. Trenton Ar. 10:27pm 9:13am Lv. N. Phila. St. Ar. 10:02pm 9:40am Lv. Paoli Ar. 9:39pm 10:21am Lv. Lancaster Ar. 8:56pm 10:51am Lv. Harrisburg Ar. 8:24pm 11:54am Lv. Lewistown Lv. 7:27pm 1:04pm Lv. Altoona Lv. 6:17pm 1:59pm Lv. Johnstown Lv. 5:23pm 2:45pm Lv. Greensburg Lv. 4:37pm 3:25pm Ar. Pittsburgh Lv. 4:00pm v-Accepts passengers for points west of Philadelphia only. HGighlights of the New AeroTrain * Foam-rubber seats in colorful coaches * Tinted Picture Windows * Fluorescent lighting * Individual reading lights * Convenient luggage racks * Air-suspension ride * Slide-away car doors * Hot Penn-Tray and Buffet-Box Meals * Coach Lunch Service and Vending Machines * Coach Attendants PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD. While most on this list seem to eschew the looks of the AeroTrain this Small Keystoner (N-Scaler) would give his left..uh.., well let's just say that if anyone ever produces one in N-Scale, I'll be the first to order one. Guess I'm weird or something but I've liked the looks of the AeroTrain since the first time I saw it. I was told once that the proto, like the model, had only three coaches but I've seen pics with up to 9 coaches behind the Loco. The pics I remember show the AeroTrain westbound at Allegheny Tunnel and westbound (I think) at the Rockville Bridge. "More RR's You Can Model" refers to the westbound as Train No. 17. For those interested the drawing with the schedule shows "GM11" in the number board. Well tomorrow's another day so Good Night, All, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 02:28:23 EST Subject: Re: Poling cars (reply to Doug) Content-Length: 2028 Doug and all, I'm not going to snip your post, 'cause I ain't snippy. LOL The poling cars served pretty much a single purpose, clear a car from a fowling point so the Hump Master could get things rolling again. It did not roam the yards pushing cars in place. Poling was a labor costly endeavor, it stopped the hump yard. They were designed to push a single loaded car away from the fowling point of a switch, perhaps two. It was not designed to to push "cuts" of car on a single track or both sides, you could do that with a single engine more effectively. Check out the photos in the the books mentioned and I think you will have a better feel for what their duties were. It made no difference if the car was all steel or of wood construction if it had a poling pocket then it was designed to be poled. The other extreme is that the PRR had continued the practise of building and having cars built with poling pockets when most railroads had stopped. A good example is the PS-2 covered hopper. Pennsy class H-34B were the last covered hoppers delivered to the property with poling pockets through about 1956-57, but most PS-2 covered hoppers were not built with poling pockets. As a matter of fact the Atlas Ho scale model is produced without them. ( but the Atlas kit "as is" misses the mark for all the H-34's and the sub- classes, but that's a different story). There again, I think that it would be a great modeling project, but unless you are modeling a larger yard then it would not serve much purpose to have one. I do not know exactly when they faded away but I have seen Poles hung from the sides of diesel switchers as well as steam engines, but did this make the poling cars go away? Who knows for sure? Watching from LINES way out WEST Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:57:03 -0500 From: "Robert W. Johnston" Subject: Branchline's FOM sets Content-Length: 478 The current Model Railroader has an advert in it for Branchline's passenger cars in FOM. It is available both as a five car set, and as a single coach. Has anyone seen these? Is the paint good, and are the cars good enough for the three feet rule? TIA rwj ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Branchline's FOM sets Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 08:50:38 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1055 On 2/4/98 8:57 AM, Robert W. Johnston (rjohns3@ibm.net) wrote: >The current Model Railroader has an advert in it for Branchline's >passenger cars in FOM. It is available both as a five car set, and as a >single coach. Has anyone seen these? Is the paint good, and are the >cars good enough for the three feet rule? Though I haven't seen them, I can tell you straight from one of the owner's mouths, is that they are Athearn cars -- which means they are non-prototypical. Since I haven't seen them, I can't comment on the paint job. At best, perhaps the coach can get by as "close to prototype". See my next post entitled "FoM Decals". --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: FoM Decals Becoming Available Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 08:55:10 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1209 Good news for those wanting to model the "Fleet of Modernism". Middle Division decals will have FoM decal sets in time for the PRRT&HS convention in late April. I spoke with the owner Monday evening. Several sets will be offered: 1) includes stripes and "PENNSYLVANIA" to do several cars. 2) Car names 3-?) several sets of the oval-ended window band, with varying lengths for different cars. No word on pricing yet. Stay tuned. I, too, will be offering them through my "Merchandise Service" web site...perhaps bundled with prototypical Union Station Products car sides and Eastern Car Works core car kits. You'd just need to paint the sides and roof, apply the decals, and add trucks, couplers, and diaphragms. My thanks to Neil Campbell for tipping me off to this last weekend. 8-) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 8:34:57 EST From: Subject: fwd: RE: Aero Train Content-Length: 2837 ------------- Original Text From: K KOLLAR@DS@193SOW, on 2/4/98 8:17 AM: To: SMTP@193SOG@PAMDT[] Just a few thoughts regarding the Aero Train. I've read several comments in this thread some good, some not so good regarding the aesthetics and 'like-ability' of the Aero Train. Failure or not look at its for simple aesthetic charm and uniqueness. IMHO the Aero Train is like the Belpaire boiler, T-1 locomotive, position light signal, train phone, 4 track main line, etc, etc. These characteristics point toward one thing....they scream PRR. The Aero Train is another piece of the puzzle that helps define the greatest railroad of all time; the Pennsylvania. Unfortuantely I don't have one of these Varney/Bowser classics in my small collection of stuff, but if I did it would be proudly run on my layout (if operable) or displayed in my office (if static). In either location it one surely do one thing. Generate conversation about the PRR. Long live the memory of the World's Standard Railroad! I've stepped down from my soap box now. Kris Kollar --------- From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." , on 2/3/98 2:18 PM: Continuing the Aero Train saga, I saw a reprise of the RR show on the History Channel last night, and there was a brief clip of the Aero Train going around Horseshoe Curve, of all places. The old Kemtron firm made a power conversion kit for Varney's Aero Train. They also marketed some very nicly done brass castings for the truck/journal/suspension pieces, replacing the toy-like parts of the original, making the model look just like the real thing. These brass castings were re-run on a limited bases about ten years ago by a different outfit, and are no longer in production. But, any die-hard SPF simply's gotta have one, and Bowser sells it, although unpowered. Wouldn' be too hard to rig up a power drive. Doesn' have to be a good one, since the 1:1 scale version had a crappy drive train--almost like a spring drive shafted 1963 LeMans. Cheap, light, and underpowered. But, the Aero Train is the best looking thing Varney ever turned out. I still have one, and I think it really speaks to a design era that is, thankfully, gone. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, watching the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today. Must be a maintenance window--or something, ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:10:44 EST Subject: DCC Content-Length: 486 Hi Guys, For those interested in DCC and or the pros & cons, check the following Web page if you haven't seen it.   http://members.aol.com/wire4dcc/index.htm PRR FOREVER Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 04 Feb 98 10:24:54 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Content-Length: 9609 --====48575348525651525654===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Aerotrain was not unique to PRR, however. It was used on the Rock Island, ending its life in commuter service, I believe. Someone else also mentioned its use on the NYC. Pennsy made its own contribution to the lightweight train fad, "The Keystone" also known as the 'tubular train' due to its construction, where the pulling forces on the couplers were transmitted through the car via the entire body of the car, vs. just the center sill. This was because the floors of the cars were lower than the height of the couplers. This was the train where one had to climb UP out of it to reach a high-level platform. Seated at a window, one got to admire the ankles and footwear of patrons waiting to board the train. Also a Budd product, and only used in the electrified zone, as far as I know. kkollar wrote: >------------- >Original Text >From: K KOLLAR@DS@193SOW, on 2/4/98 8:17 AM: >To: SMTP@193SOG@PAMDT[] > >Just a few thoughts regarding the Aero Train. I've read several comments >in this thread some good, some not so good regarding the aesthetics and >'like-ability' of the Aero Train. Failure or not look at its for simple >aesthetic charm and uniqueness. IMHO the Aero Train is like the Belpaire >boiler, T-1 locomotive, position light signal, train phone, 4 track main >line, etc, etc. These characteristics point toward one thing....they >scream PRR. The Aero Train is another piece of the puzzle that helps >define the greatest railroad of all time; the Pennsylvania. Unfortuantely >I don't have one of these Varney/Bowser classics in my small collection of >stuff, but if I did it would be proudly run on my layout (if operable) or >displayed in my office (if static). In either location it one surely do >one thing. Generate conversation about the PRR. > >Long live the memory of the World's Standard Railroad! > >I've stepped down from my soap box now. > >Kris Kollar >--------- >From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." , on 2/3/98 2:18 PM: >Continuing the Aero Train saga, I saw a reprise of the RR show on the >History Channel last night, and there was a brief clip of the Aero Train >going around Horseshoe Curve, of all places. > >The old Kemtron firm made a power conversion kit for Varney's Aero >Train. They also marketed some very nicly done brass castings for the >truck/journal/suspension pieces, replacing the toy-like parts of the >original, making the model look just like the real thing. These brass >castings were re-run on a limited bases about ten years ago by a >different outfit, and are no longer in production. > >But, any die-hard SPF simply's gotta have one, and Bowser sells it, >although unpowered. Wouldn' be too hard to rig up a power drive. >Doesn' have to be a good one, since the 1:1 scale version had a crappy >drive train--almost like a spring drive shafted 1963 LeMans. Cheap, >light, and underpowered. > >But, the Aero Train is the best looking thing Varney ever turned out. I >still have one, and I think it really speaks to a design era that is, >thankfully, gone. > >Andrew Harmantas, SPF, watching the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. >Nothing moving today. Must be a maintenance window--or something, > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48575348525651525654===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aerotrain was not unique to PRR, however. It was used on the Rock Island, ending its life in commuter service, I believe. Someone else also mentioned its use on the NYC.
Pennsy made its own contribution to the lightweight train fad, "The Keystone" also known as the 'tubular train' due to its construction, where the pulling forces on the couplers were transmitted through the car via the entire body of the car, vs. just the center sill. This was because the floors of the cars were lower than the height of the couplers. This was the train where one had to climb UP out of it to reach a high-level platform. Seated at a window, one got to admire the ankles and footwear of patrons waiting to board the train. Also a Budd product, and only used in the electrified zone, as far as I know.

kkollar wrote:
>-------------
>Original Text
>From: K KOLLAR@DS@193SOW, on 2/4/98 8:17 AM:
>To: SMTP@193SOG@PAMDT[<harmanta@monroe.army.mil>]
>
>Just a few thoughts regarding the Aero Train. I've read several comments
>in this thread some good, some not so good regarding the aesthetics and
>'like-ability' of the Aero Train. Failure or not look at its for simple
>aesthetic charm and uniqueness. IMHO the Aero Train is like the Belpaire
>boiler, T-1 locomotive, position light signal, train phone, 4 track main
>line, etc, etc. These characteristics point toward one thing....they
>scream PRR. The Aero Train is another piece of the puzzle that helps
>define the greatest railroad of all time; the Pennsylvania. Unfortuantely
>I don't have one of these Varney/Bowser classics in my small collection of
>stuff, but if I did it would be proudly run on my layout (if operable) or
>displayed in my office (if static). In either location it one surely do
>one thing. Generate conversation about the PRR.
>
>Long live the memory of the World's Standard Railroad!
>
>I've stepped down from my soap box now.
>
>Kris Kollar
>---------
>From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." <harmanta@monroe.army.mil>, on 2/3/98 2:18 PM:
>Continuing the Aero Train saga, I saw a reprise of the RR show on the
>History Channel last night, and there was a brief clip of the Aero Train
>going around Horseshoe Curve, of all places.
>
>The old Kemtron firm made a power conversion kit for Varney's Aero
>Train. They also marketed some very nicly done brass castings for the
>truck/journal/suspension pieces, replacing the toy-like parts of the
>original, making the model look just like the real thing. These brass
>castings were re-run on a limited bases about ten years ago by a
>different outfit, and are no longer in production.
>
>But, any die-hard SPF simply's gotta have one, and Bowser sells it,
>although unpowered. Wouldn' be too hard to rig up a power drive.
>Doesn' have to be a good one, since the 1:1 scale version had a crappy
>drive train--almost like a spring drive shafted 1963 LeMans. Cheap,
>light, and underpowered.
>
>But, the Aero Train is the best looking thing Varney ever turned out. I
>still have one, and I think it really speaks to a design era that is,
>thankfully, gone.
>
>Andrew Harmantas, SPF, watching the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero.
>Nothing moving today. Must be a maintenance window--or something,
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48575348525651525654===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:32:44 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: IT'S NEW...DIFFERENT Content-Length: 1292 "More RR's You Can Model" refers to the westbound as Train No. > 17. For those interested the drawing with the schedule shows "GM11" in > the number board. I remember seeing the Aerotrain as a 5-year-old child at Lewistown station (my mom took me over there on a special trip just to see it one day), and once in the Lewistown Narrows, around Hawstone. My parents used to comment on how it seemed to have a different number of cars every time they saw it. The train's schedule designation was 16 and 17. The locomotive number while it was on the PRR was 1000. The "GM11" you refer to was actually GM-T1 (how dare General Motors call this a T1? but hey, What's Good For GM Is Good For The Nation, remember?). I don't know if it ran in regular service, either on PRR or anywhere else, with that in the numberboard but it definitely appeared that way in publicity shots. You can see it prominently in the color cover photo of Norman Carlisle's "The Wonder Book of Trains" (Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1957 edition). Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 84:5 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:30:34 EST Subject: Re: H21a Content-Length: 1627 In a message dated 98-02-02 13:42:30 EST, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: << Are there any other modifications/corrections that need to be made to make the model more prototypical? >> Don, that depends on what time period you are modeling. The Bowser is a compromise of several eras. The major inconsistency is the internal cross members and the ladders on the left of the side. When built with internal cross supports rather than gusset supports the left end of the side should have no ladder and one horizontal grab bar. This was followed by the additon of the second horizontal grab bar. This configuration with internal cross members as supplied by Bowser was found on H21a, H21b abd H21e class cars and is correct from 1918 to 1968. the ladder on the left end of the side as in the Bowser kit was only applied when gusset supports were retrofitted on the interior of the car and only to H21e rebuilds. Other potential improvements are the replacement of the vertical and horizontal grab bars ot eht right side of each end. They should be much more prominent that they ar on the Bowser model. You also have a choice of KD brakes with a vertical brake staff, AB brakes with a vertical brake staff or AB brakes with the end mounted brake wheel. I don't have any drawings in front of me but if I recall correctly the air line on the H21 ran along the center sill. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:47:44 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: RE: Aero Train Content-Length: 883 Greetings, That other RR (NYC) had a fling with the Aerotrain. Pic on pg 128 of the NYCSHS book "Diesel locomotives of the New York Central System " shows a consist of 10 cars. Don't have a pic of the Aerotrain in PRR paint, does anyone know where to find one? How was it painted?? NYC's was silver and red trim. Was there an article ever written which covers the history of these trains? You don't suppose this little train caused the final demise of both? Maybe this was the straw that broke the camels back of both!!!! Is there a comparable book by the PRRT&HS showing the diesels of the PRR? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:11:54 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/01/98 Content-Length: 498 >>From: "s.a. mccall" Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:30:33 -0500 What class is the Jubilee, possibly a 2-4-2.? Sincerely, << I have only heard this term used for Canadian Pacific's streamlined 4-4-4's. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 10:36 04-Feb-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:14:16 -0600 Subject: Anyone have a track chart showing Cresson? -Reply Content-Length: 336 There are a couple of track charts, photographs, and descriptions of Cresson in Triumph 1. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:17:05 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Content-Length: 1048 > Pennsy made its own contribution to the lightweight train fad, "The > Keystone" also known as the 'tubular train' due to its construction, where the > pulling forces on the couplers were transmitted through the car via the > entire body of the car, vs. just the center sill. This was because the > floors of the cars were lower than the height of the couplers. This was the > train where one had to climb UP out of it to reach a high-level platform. > Seated at a window, one got to admire the ankles and footwear of patrons > waiting to board the train. Also a Budd product, and only used in the > electrified zone, as far as I know. I could swear at one point this was making a run to Pittsburgh and back east, but my reference materials are probably out of reach until the weekend. Perhaps Rich knows? -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: FoM / Leowy Paint Scheme Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 12:08:01 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 955 How late into the 1940's did the Leowy "Fleet of Modernism" paint scheme last? I was under the impression that by 1944ish, most cars had been repainted in the "post war" scheme of all Tuscan with three gold (Dulux) stripes. However, the new book "Black Diamonds Black Gold" has a 1947 publicity photo of a new A-B-A set of E7's pulling a whole train still bearing the two-tone Leowy livery! Though I'm modeling 1954, I'd like to do one train in this scheme, perhaps pulled by the forthcoming streamlined K4 from Liberty Model Productions. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:07:01 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 836 In a message dated 98-02-03 12:11:56 EST, drm6@psu.edu writes: << The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR article. >> The original tooling was indeed Varney. Bowser sells or did sell until last year a power kit for the Aero Train. I don't have a price list with me. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:34:28 EST Subject: Re: What If the PRR had Survived? Content-Length: 1577 In a message dated 98-02-03 21:05:27 EST, WGripp@prius.jnj.com writes: << This isn't that hard. They just would have bought at least a few of whatever EMD and GE have offered over the past 30 years and painted them black, uh Brunswick green. =B^) >> Probably true. But with the upswing in railroad fortunes and the increase in colorful and fancy paint schemes, would we have seen a return to the DGLE five stripe or even the shark five stripe. Ah yes an SD90MAC DGLE five stripe and toludine circel Keystone. Whjat of Amtrak. WOuld PRR have not joined and thus probably crippled Amtrak? Would it have kept the lucrative NE Corridor and given everthing else to Amtrak? With merger fever abounding would PRR have absorbed the failing LV,CNJ, RDG, EL etc. mean while allowing the NYC to sink into bankruptcy and then grabbing up the profitable NYC branchs for itself? Would the PRR have stood aside while C&O grabbed up B&O & WM? Would NS have come about or would the on time subsidiary NW have become part of PRR? As you move to the present day with the major roads selling off branchs, would the PR have followed suit and spun off numerous regional and local lines. Of course following PRR practive the PRR would have maintained controlling interest. Thoughts to ponder on a cold winter day in front of the fire. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Aero Train Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 13:07:30 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 889 On 4 Feb, "s.a. mccall" wrote: > [ ... ] Don't have a pic of the Aerotrain in PRR paint, does > anyone know where to find one? How was it painted?? NYC's was silver and > red trim. [ ... ] There're a couple of shots in Don Ball's "PRR in the 40s and 50s" which show silver and red trim with keystones added. I'm at work, so if you'd like more details, write back and I'll post a better description tonight. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:31:04 -0500 Content-Length: 456 > Aerotrain was not unique to PRR, however. It was used on the Rock > Island, ending its life in commuter service, I believe. Someone else > also mentioned its use on the NYC. ___________________ A set also operated on the UP for awhile. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:14:53 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Poling cars (reply to Doug) Content-Length: 1124 And Greg Martin adds: > The poling cars served pretty much a single purpose, clear a car from a >fowling point so the Hump Master could get things rolling again. ===== One could use this car as a special operating problem. If you are switching and a car stops where it fouls the switch, you have to bring out the poling car to shove it clear. That way you have an excuse to add one of these to the roster. BTW, it ought to be a really simple beginners kitbashing project: take a flat car, add the poles, a box for drag chains and tools and maybe toss in a flanger for clearing snow in the yard (what the hay). Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 04 Feb 98 11:39:20 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Poling cars (reply to Greg) Content-Length: 1751 re: Greg Martin's reply re poling cars: The stuff I was quoting about the cars being used to push cuts of cars on adjacent tracks was based on a writeup in an MR from the 50's that accompanied a drawing of a poling car. But they've been known to be wrong, especially back then. They also said not many cars could be poled at a time, as the pole itself would fracture. And that they were pretty much gone by the mid-50's, when the drawing was published, one reason being the danger involved in the procedure. My point about stresses in poling is that, yes, a single car was designed to be poled (hence the presence of poling pockets), but a single wooden car may not have been designed to absorb the stress at the corner of the car from poling a significant number of cars coupled together. Of course, wood is stronger in compression than in tension, so who knows...From what you are saying, Greg, poling of large cuts of cars didn't happen (much) anyway. It DOES seem like risky business. By the way, there is a diagram of the S-5 poling car in the back of Wayner's Pennsy Passenger and Freight Car Diagram book, out of print. There is also a picture in another Wayner PRR freight and passenger car photo book I own of an what Wayner termed an "idler car" that seemed to be a converted flat car with railings and a cabin for the men. There were no poles in evidence, though the caption said it was used for poling. I'm still looking for the MR with the drawing of the S-5 poling car in it. -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:38:36 -0600 Subject: Aero Train -Reply Content-Length: 637 >>> "jerry@dsop.com" 02/02/98 02:17pm wrote>>> >Wouldn't get caught dead with it on my layout, but someone >was selling a Bowser Aero Train set at the Timnoium show >for only $75! If I had had $75 to blow, I surely would have >bought it for laughs at PRR conventions. >Damned that thing was ugly! Why would you not run it on your layout, it ran on the 12" to the foot PRR layout. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:25:03 -0600 Subject: RE: Aero Train -Reply (Long!) Content-Length: 4308 >>> "hosam@gc.net" 02/04/98 11:27am wrote>>> >That other RR (NYC) had a fling with the Aerotrain. Pic on >pg 128 of the NYCSHS book "Diesel locomotives of the New >York Central System " shows a consist of 10 cars. The UP and Rhode Island also experimented with the Aerotrain, each in their own colors. >Don't have a pic of the Aerotrain in PRR paint, does anyone know >where to find one? How was it painted?? NYC's was silver and >red trim. There are several color shots of the Aerotrain in action in various volumes of the Pennsy Diesel Years. I am at work so don't have access at the moment to give specifics. Also there were some good color close up shots of the power unit (engine?) and the tail car inside the front and rear pages of a Keystone published within the last 2 or 3 years. If anyone is interested I can post specific references. The PRR Aerotrain (leased from GM for the "experiment") was silver with orange trim. The PRR Aerotrain usually ran with the power unit and seven coaches (busses?) and a tail car, at least that is what is seen in most photographs. I have seen one photograph with 8 coaches plus the tail car. In answer to an earlier post, it did run outside of electrified territory. It ran from New York to Pittsburgh and return (daily I believe). There are several pictures of it traversing Horseshoe Curve. The Bowser Aerotrain is all plastic. It consists of the unpowered power unit, 2 coaches, and the tail car. Additional coaches are available seperately. ALCO Products (312 Hunter Forge Rd, Macungie, PA 18062, telephone 610-845-7300) makes a Power Frame for the Bowser/Varney Areotrain, $19.95 plus $ 3 S&H. In addition you need an Athearn switcher power truck and a motor (ALCO sells one or use somebody elses). The two front trucks are the only powered trucks and a rear axle/wheel set on the "engine" is unpowered. Because only the front trucks are powered it is very important to pack as much lead in the "engine" as possible (voice of experience) in order to obtain enough traction to pull any load at all. I replaced the plastic wheels on the "coaches" with metal wheel sets, removed the draw bars between cars, replaced them with Kadee couplers, built brass floors to add weight and lower the center of gravity. I also added car numbers with "off the shelf" decals number sets. The Aerotrain offers some interesting lighting effects. I put a Digitrax DCC decoder in mine and in addition to running the train, I can turn on and off several light sets. The front of the "engine" has five lights arranged horizontally in a row. Photos show the train ran in daylight with the outtermost two lights on (low beams?). I believe the next two were for night (high beams?). The center light is red. Was this used as an additional warning light? Using the decoder I can seperately command the outermost 2 lights, the next 2, or the center red (which I made a Mars light using Digitrax FX functions). Pictures of the tail car show two horizontally arranged lights in a row. The leftmost light is white (for backup movements?) and the right one is red. I used a blinking led for the red light so it continually flashes like an EOT. The prototype Aerotrain had silver colored full contour diaphrams between cars. I bought one full contour diaphram kit to try between cars. After dying the cloth diaphram material silver (Rit clothes dye) and assembling and attaching the diaphram between a couple of coaches, I thought the results looked pretty good (at least it closed the gap with something that was the same color as the coaches). I deceided to do the rest of my Aerotrain, only to find out that the manufacturer of the full contour diaphram kits had gone out of business and they were no longer available. I now will have to manufacturer my own. Another project on the shelf. While I admit the Aerotrain is not beautiful like a GG1, T1, or PA, it does cause a lot of interest when seen running on a layout. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:33:05 +0000 From: Iain A Fraser Subject: Re: Books Content-Length: 697 Hi guys.... I am looking for some reliable background reading to the PRR system, routes, dates, traffics, operations etc. and something with a in depth look at the motive power esp. steam and electric. Off list correspondence brings up the name Middleton...can someone point me in the right direction or advise on suitable book(s). These are for my personal education so I can keep up with you guys! Thanks Iain AEROLITE BOOKTRADERS rail books at www.aerolite.u-net.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: FoM / Leowy Paint Scheme Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:31:17 -0500 Content-Length: 1514 Now you're talking !! - You know one of the forthcoming K4's has your name on it anyway, don't you Jerry !! =) Joe Zappa ---------- > From: Jerry_Britton > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: FoM / Leowy Paint Scheme > Date: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 11:08 AM > > How late into the 1940's did the Leowy "Fleet of Modernism" paint scheme > last? > > I was under the impression that by 1944ish, most cars had been repainted > in the "post war" scheme of all Tuscan with three gold (Dulux) stripes. > However, the new book "Black Diamonds Black Gold" has a 1947 publicity > photo of a new A-B-A set of E7's pulling a whole train still bearing the > two-tone Leowy livery! > > Though I'm modeling 1954, I'd like to do one train in this scheme, > perhaps pulled by the forthcoming streamlined K4 from Liberty Model > Productions. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Backdrops Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:47:43 -0500 Content-Length: 2426 Jerry, Not ALL of the modules will always be at a given show, and besides, I see nothing wrong with having one or two modules that are not 'viewable' from a given side within an entire group of modules. One posible solution to this is to very sharply drop off the backside of the hill or mountain (There really aren't any mountains in the east) to module edge with trees or other finished senics on the backside. How about a narrow little dirt track around back that leads to a small distillery hiding in the dense woods or something ! =) Joe Zappa ---------- > From: Jerry_Britton > To: > Cc: prrmo@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Backdrops > Date: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 11:10 AM > > On 2/4/98 12:53 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: > > >Why can't we have removable backdrops? The modules could be built without > >backdrops and > >then a seperate backdrop (1/4" masonite or something like that) could be > >clamped onto the > >back side of the module - if the display conditions warrant. This also > >would allow for the > >backdrop to be attached to either side of the module depending upon the > >layout configuration. > > Clamp on backdrops probably are a good idea. And yes, you could then > apply it to either side -- except mine will be a photo of the real > location blown up in PhotoShop and printed to a Fiery 11x17" color > printer! > > Only problem I see with viewing from both sides would be if anyone models > the east slope which would have a mountain as its backdrop ( e.g. > Bennington Curve, MG interlocking, Kittaning Point, etc.). > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > This list ("PRRMO") is for discussion of PRRMO business only. All general > modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". > For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 18:02:22 CST Subject: FOM paint scheme Content-Length: 1327 How late into the 1940's did the Leowy "Fleet of Modernism" paint scheme last? I was under the impression that by 1944ish, most cars had been repainted in the "post war" scheme of all Tuscan with three gold (Dulux) stripes. However, the new book "Black Diamonds Black Gold" has a 1947 publicity photo of a new A-B-A set of E7's pulling a whole train still bearing the two-tone Leowy livery! Though I'm modeling 1954, I'd like to do one train in this scheme, perhaps pulled by the forthcoming streamlined K4 from Liberty Model Productions. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Hi, all, >From watching videos and reviewing PRR photos, I'm fairly confident that there were a few FOM cars still around in 1950. And note- they had the newer serif lettering, not the original san serif lettering found c.1939. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:29:45 EST Subject: Re: Construction Standards (fwd) Content-Length: 885 When you get this "hashed out" send me a copy of the specs/drawings. Like most "O" scalers I started in HO - still have a Penn Line H-9 stashed away somewhere Think I might like to build a module for the experience and the fellowship - when theyy are assembled. One thought - once standards are established it would be a good idea to assemble a "kit" including things like hinges - connectors - joiner sections - leveling screws and perhaps some other "stuff" so that they would be compatible and "match" I have a "nuts and bolts" business and would be happy to contribute necessary Wood Screws, Lag Screws, Carriage Bolts and Nuts etc Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: CD Links corrected Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 19:37:13 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 879 It was recently brought to my attention that throughout the "Keystone Crossings" site the links for large files that should have provided information on ordering the CD-ROM were dead. In fact, the filename for that information was changed some time ago and I overlooked all of the updates. I believe I have now corrected them all. BTW, the URL for the CD is http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ds/ds.html. Volume II is available. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:30:27 EST Subject: Re: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Content-Length: 468 Initially the Aerotrain was on a NY - Pittsburgh - NY daily run. This was cut back to Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Philadelphia run. The Aerotrain wa tested on the PRR in 1956. I do not have the train number or a 1956 EET with the schedule. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 19:54:23 -0500 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 580 s.a. mccall wrote: > Greetings, > > Don't have a pic of the Aerotrain in PRR paint, does > anyone know where to find one? How was it painted?? > > > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > Franklin, Va. Check the summer 1996 Keystone for 3 Kodachromes of Train 17. The caption says that this was a nine car coach train with each car seating 40. - Bob Vogel ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:50:46 EST Subject: Re: Poling cars (long) Content-Length: 2381 >From The Keystone Vol 22 No 2. page 16 "A.166 Plans for a PRR poling car were published in the July 195 issue of Model Railroader. If your car was built from those plans it would be class S5. The MR drawing shows the lettering plan for 1916 to 1920. At that time the car would have been painted standard freight car color with white lettering. Beginning on Novemebr 21, 1940, the body color for poling cars was changed to battleship grey -- standard PRR MOW grey -- with black trucks and lettering. At the same time, the weight and scale marks on the ends of the cabin were discontinued. On January 14, 1954, the color scheme was changed again to camp car yellow for the body, sill steps and end sill handholds and black for lettering, safety appliances, underframe and roof. There may or may not have been poling cars still inn use at that time, but drawings were issued showing these changes. The assigned yard name was lettered on the lefthand protion of the side, rather than the road name. The word "yard" was applied tp the right-hand portion of the side followed by the car number. All letteing and numerals were 6" high until 1920 agter which it was reduced to 5". The left hand portion of he cab was lettered in three rows on the centerline of that section of the cab: S5 BUILT 10/13 (or proper date) P.R.R. The first two lies are 3" high the last 2' high One end of the poling car contained one line of lettering beneath the cab window: "P (paint location code)" followed by "wt (car weight)" The car number in MR is imaginary. Poling cars were numbered in the low 480000 series. Know S5 numbers are as follows: 480005 480006 480007 480008 480009 480010 480012 480014 480015 480016 480017 480024 480026 480027 480029 480038 480044 480052 480054 480062 480063 480202 In early years it is belived that the cars rode on archbar trucks. By the late 1040's these were replaced by what appear to be light duty Andrews type. Typos and abbriviations are mine. It would appear that there were at a minimum Class S1 S2 S3 and S4 poling cars in addition to the class S5 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:59:39 EST Subject: Re: FoM / Leowy Paint Scheme Content-Length: 434 The FOM paint scheme officially lasted from 1938 to spring of 1946. The are numerous photos of cars still in FOM paint in 1948 and 1949. I do not have and do not recall anything more recent than 1950 in FOM. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: CT1000C Now Online Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 20:47:49 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1092 Thanks to John Keel's original, I have now posted a CT1000C dated May 1, 1945 in the documents section of "Keystone Crossings". It is 9.8MB in Adobe Acrobat format. It is also available via FTP. It will appear on Volume III of the CD-ROM series as well. If you don't know what a CT1000 is, check out the PRR Glossary under the FAQs page at "Keystone Crossings". Well, this oughtta appease you "Lines Westerners" a little bit. As Mark and I have always said, our sites lean towards the East cause that's what material is available to us! If anyone has a CT1000W they can lend me for scanning, I would appreciate it. The process takes 4-6 weeks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:45:39 EST Subject: Harrisburg Show Content-Length: 347 The Harrisburg Show is still on. The tax folks did contact the chapter and it did alarm some but not enough to cancel the entire thing. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: Poling Cars & Aero Trains Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:16:05 -0500 Content-Length: 2648 Adding to Bob Zoeller's et. al. answer to Kris Kollar's question on PRR Poling Cars, the book "Pennsy Car Plans",Wayner Publications, 1969, has a drawing of the Poling Car on page 98. It is listed as Class S-5. I also have a brass model on my layout. It's as cute as a bug. It may be an ALCO import. The box is packed away. For the benefit of the youngsters (one of whom is my fraternity brother) who don't like the Aero Train, I also have one (also not on my layout). It was not based on a '57 Chevy. Instead, it was based on the GM bus of that time (check out the windows). Once, when I was a kid, my dad took me to the Homewood Station, on the main line, to see the Aero Train. I acquired these and other odd models during visits to train stores, when I had a real job, while I was traveling for the Company formerly known a Westinghouse, and now affectionately known as CBS. Incidentally, PRR fans, Yesterday while returning home from a consulting job in Williamsport, I saw 4 trackwalkers carrying tools along the Bald Eagle branch ( I believe) near Julian along PA 220. The ballast was neatly trimmed and those guys looked like they were going to drive spikes and tighten rail joints. Carl P. Izzo > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Poling cars > From: Bobspf@aol.com > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:30:21 EST > > In a message dated 98-02-02 19:35:22 EST, Kris Kollar writes: > > << Does anyone know what kind of car these were modified from, ie gondola, > flat, tender, etc? > - What wre they classified as? > - Do any pictures exist? if yes, what books? > - Were any kits ever made of these animals? > - When was this practice of poling discontinued? ie, would it fit into my > future 1954 era layout? > >> > Try pages 21 and 31 of Rails to Pittsburgh, W.A. Feibelman, Superior > Publishing Company, Seattle, WA. for two views. > I believe MR or RMC ran plans many years ago. Brass versions available on lthe > consignment market. > One of the experts can tell you about the date they phased out and whether > they were "scratchbuilt" or built from other cars,but I think 1954 was > pushing it. Most photos I saw were in the late 40's. In fact I don't ever > remember seeing one with a diesel. > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 23:22:31 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 1255 s.a. mccall wrote: > > Greetings, > > That other RR (NYC) had a fling with the Aerotrain. Pic on pg 128 of the > NYCSHS book "Diesel locomotives of the New York Central System " shows a > consist of 10 cars. Don't have a pic of the Aerotrain in PRR paint, does > anyone know where to find one? How was it painted?? I just posted a picture of the Aerotrain at http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ and news:alt.binaries.pictures.rail IMHO, it was nothing more than an overgrown Chevrolet. (The keystones make it handsome, though. I think I'll paint some on my Nova.) -- CB _________ __\ _ /__"may your pantograph always reach the catenary" --------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- ---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- ----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ -----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ ------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:43:32 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Baltimore twin towers Content-Length: 835 Hello Folks... I am working on a project concerning Baltimores Union Jct. and B&P Jct. towers...These were two identical towers that were very near to Baltimores Penn station...One thing i am hoping to find out is... Were these two the only twin towers built /and or near each other... and if anyone knows the status of the remnants of the second floor of B&P Jct. tower that was saved and are supposed to be at Bowie,Md. hopefully for future restoration. Any info on either of them will be greatly appreciated and welcomed. Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 06:22:39 EST Subject: Re: CT1000C Now Online Content-Length: 748 Jerry, I'd like to download your CT1000 but I am a rookie at this and need some help. How do I do it? I am using Windows 3.1 on an IBM 486 with a 400 meg hd and 16 megs of ram. Any suggestions you can offer will be appreciated. Is it too large to print after I down load it? I know ftp is file transfer protocol but do not know how to execute it. Thanks in advance. Sincerly, Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: PRR Railway Operating Battlion Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:17:37 PST Content-Length: 591 Does anyone have any, or know the whereabouts, of ANY information on the PRR's WWII ROB? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:12:47 EST Subject: Re: Poling cars (reply to Doug) Content-Length: 428 Some modeling info from my MOW files. Class S-5 poling cars # 480005 to 10,12,14-17,24,26,27,29,38,44,52,54,62 and 480063. There are pictures of the 480005 and 480063 in the Summer 1989 Keystone. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: FTP from Windows Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 08:02:45 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1330 On 2/5/98 7:22 AM, Paintloco@aol.com (Paintloco@aol.com) wrote: >I'd like to download your CT1000 but I am a rookie at this and need some >help. >How do I do it? I am using Windows 3.1 on an IBM 486 with a 400 meg hd and 16 >megs of ram. Any suggestions you can offer will be appreciated. Is it too >large to print after I down load it? I know ftp is file transfer protocol but >do not know how to execute it. Thanks in advance. Perhaps someone on the list can post a "How to FTP with Windows" message. Please don't make a full thread about it, however. I'm a Mac user and don't know all the ins and outs of Wintel anymore. IF your system is configured with "helpers", all you need to do is click on an FTP link on my site and it "should" load your FTP application and begin the download automatically. The link on the web page contains the user name, password, hostname, and full path including filename. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Feb 98 08:36:49 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Poling cars Content-Length: 362 Rich Orr's informative post about poling cars left out the last numeral of the year the drawing appeared in Model Railroader, which was July 1955. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:50:40 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train -Reply (Long!) Content-Length: 569 In a message dated 98-02-04 21:22:41 EST,Bill Laird writes: << The UP and Rhode Island also experimented with the Aerotrain, each in their own colors. >> I believe the Rock Island Aerotrain was the ex-Pennsy and joined the eclectic collection of locomotives and cars that they ran in commuter service on the South Side of Chicago. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 8:36:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Keystone (was Aerotrain) -Reply Content-Length: 771 >>> "SUVCWORR@aol.com" 02/05/98 12:07am wrote>>> >Initially the Aerotrain was on a NY - Pittsburgh - NY daily run. >This was cut back to Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Philadelphia run. >The Aerotrain wa tested on the PRR in 1956. I do not have the >train number or a 1956 EET with the schedule. > >Rich Orr > While I do not have the timetable train number, I do know that the Aerotrain power unit (engine?) number shown on its numberboards in PRR service was 1000. This is clearly evident in several photographs. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 10:23:58 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: ftp from windows Content-Length: 1073 Greetings, If using Microsoft Internet Explorer or Netscape and running win 3.1 or win 95 use the following. In the address window type in ftp://prr.dsop.com and hit the enter button. This will bring up a window with three choices: Directory prr outbound Directory prr inbound Directory Kanson Click on prr inbound to access ftp files for download. Click on prr inbound to upload files. Click on Kanson to (I have no idea, don't have patience to wait) My computer is a 166mhz, with a 56.6 modem running win 95. During mid day it takes around a minute to connect to either outbound or inbound. I have typed this whole letter, around 3-4 minutes and still have not connected to Kanson. This should help those having trouble with the links on Jerrys home page. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 9:29:34 -0600 Subject: Re: Poling cars -Reply Content-Length: 760 >>> "SUVCWORR@aol.com" 02/05/98 01:07am wrote, in part>>> >From The Keystone Vol 22 No 2. page 16 > >"A.166 Plans for a PRR poling car were published in the >July 195 issue of Model Railroader. > The complete reference is "Model Railroader", July 1955, Vol 22, Number 7, page 34, Prototype Data and Drawing by Harold Geissel Does anyone have a copy? I checked about ordering a reprint from Kalmbach Publishing but their online reprint service does not go back that far. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: ftp from windows Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 10:49:15 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1081 On 2/5/98 11:23 AM, s.a. mccall (hosam@gc.net) wrote: >Click on prr inbound to access ftp files for download. Should be "outbound" to download files >Click on prr inbound to upload files. >Click on Kanson to (I have no idea, don't have patience to wait) > >...I >have typed this whole letter, around 3-4 minutes and still have not >connected to Kanson. Kanson is a private site and should give you an error (rather than a hang). Another note, and it depends on how your browser is configured. IF the FTP server asks you for a user name and a password, use these: USER NAME: Anonymous PASSSORD: (your e-mail address) OR USER NAME: prr PASSWORD: prr --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:51:25 -0600 Subject: Re: ftp from windows Content-Length: 1725 Thanks for the information. I had no idea how easy it is to access it until you explained it. By the way does > -Click on prr inbound to access ftp files for download. Mean ~Click on prr outbound to access ftp files for download". Randy "s.a. mccall" on 02/05/98 09:23:58 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: ftp from windows Greetings, If using Microsoft Internet Explorer or Netscape and running win 3.1 or win 95 use the following. In the address window type in ftp://prr.dsop.com and hit the enter button. This will bring up a window with three choices: Directory prr outbound Directory prr inbound Directory Kanson Click on prr inbound to access ftp files for download. Click on prr inbound to upload files. Click on Kanson to (I have no idea, don't have patience to wait) My computer is a 166mhz, with a 56.6 modem running win 95. During mid day it takes around a minute to connect to either outbound or inbound. I have typed this whole letter, around 3-4 minutes and still have not connected to Kanson. This should help those having trouble with the links on Jerrys home page. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 10:53:44 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: ftp from windows correction Content-Length: 942 See the correction below: At 10:23 AM 2/5/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Greetings, > > If using Microsoft Internet Explorer or Netscape and running win 3.1 or >win 95 use the following. In the address window type in ftp://prr.dsop.com >and hit the enter button. This will bring up a window with three choices: > > Directory prr outbound > Directory prr inbound > Directory Kanson > >Click on prr inbound to access ftp files for download. The above line is incorrect This should read Click on prr outbound to access ftp files for download. >Click on prr inbound to upload files. >Click on Kanson to (I have no idea, don't have patience to wait) > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Broken/bent link FIXED Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 11:43:34 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 665 On 2/5/98 12:20 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: >The link to CT1000C is OK, but the link hiding under >FTP points to CT1000e_1945 instead of CT1000c_1945. > >Thought you would like to know. I hate when I do that! I just fixed it...thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:57:03 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Overgrown Chevys Content-Length: 934 Criss Brandt states: > >IMHO, it was nothing more than an overgrown Chevrolet. >(The keystones make it handsome, though. I think I'll paint some on my >Nova.) ===== Actually, any kind of a long auto like a station wagon would look nice in cats whiskers. Of would you do it in FOM scheme, since its a passenger car? You would have to put a Keystone drumhead on the rear, too. This could become the new litmus test of SPF purity? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:57:06 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Aero Train -Reply (Long!) Content-Length: 1331 Bob Zoeller says: > >I believe the Rock Island Aerotrain was the ex-Pennsy and joined the eclectic >collection of locomotives and cars that they ran in commuter service on the >South Side of Chicago. ===== Hmmmm, I had thought the Rock Island was a different unit. So much the better! It happens this Aerotrain is in the Museum Of Transport here in St. Louis. The locomotive is in fair shape, although the two cars are junk. It happens I used a photo of it in the title page for the company section on "The Limited". Go to the index page, then to "Those Classic Trains". Admittedly, a rather cluttered view! BTW: I have been squirreling away all the comments about the Aerotrain for use in a topic in "The Art Deco Submarine". Thank you everyone! I will get some more photos and post them in that topic soon. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: CT1000C Now Online (fwd) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:11:07 EST Content-Length: 711 > Thanks to John Keel's original, I have now posted a CT1000C dated May 1, > 1945 in the documents section of "Keystone Crossings". It is 9.8MB in > Adobe Acrobat format. It is also available via FTP. It will appear on > Volume III of the CD-ROM series as well. Jerry, Now that Philadelphia, Harrisburg, and (very soon) Pittsburgh Division interlocking maps are complete, how 'bout including them in the CD? Also the Book of Rules, J.E. Thompson's First Annual Report, etc.? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Baltimore twin towers (fwd) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:15:11 EST Content-Length: 1182 > I am working on a project concerning Baltimores Union Jct. and B&P Jct. > towers...These were two identical towers that were very near to > Baltimores Penn station...One thing i am hoping to find out is... > Were these two the only twin towers built /and or near each other... > and if anyone knows the status of the remnants of the second floor > of B&P Jct. tower that was saved and are supposed to be at Bowie,Md. > hopefully for future restoration. Any info on either of them will > be greatly appreciated and welcomed. Hank, they were _not_ identical by any stretch of the imagination, at least not in 1981 when I visited them. They were only 'twin' in the sense that they controlled 2 halves of a complex area of trackage. Of that second variety of 'twin' there were many examples. ZOO and ARSENAL. STATE and HARRIS. ANTIS and ALTO (yards _and_ pass. stn.) EAST CONWAY and WEST CONWAY. Probably others. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: FTP from Windows (fwd) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:22:50 EST Content-Length: 1735 > >I'd like to download your CT1000 but I am a rookie at this and need some > >help. > >How do I do it? I am using Windows 3.1 on an IBM 486 with a 400 meg hd and 16 > >megs of ram. Any suggestions you can offer will be appreciated. Is it too > >large to print after I down load it? I know ftp is file transfer protocol but > >do not know how to execute it. Thanks in advance. > > Perhaps someone on the list can post a "How to FTP with Windows" message. > Please don't make a full thread about it, however. I'm a Mac user and > don't know all the ins and outs of Wintel anymore. Just to give credit where credit is due, ftp is not a Windoze/Micro$oft product. It was designed and written for UNIX and the Internet (which are nearly synonymous :-). Windows 3.1 does not come with anything resembling ftp. Win 95 and NT does. If you have a modem, and the sending computer (the computer with the CT 1000) has a modem, you might be able to dial into it and login as user "ftp". Usually you're asked to put your email address in as a password. There are other schemes available for various "bulletin-board" schemes. Unfortunately, that's life with Win3.1 . BillyBoy didn't think you were smart enough for a real operating system, so he didn't give you one. Oh, BTW, normally ftp is executed by stating the computer's name, e.g.: ftp jerryscomputer.jerry.com etc. In a Web browser, you may use ftp: in place of http: , e.g.: ftp://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/ -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:43:43 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Content-Length: 765 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > Initially the Aerotrain was on a NY - Pittsburgh - NY daily run. This was cut > back to Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - Philadelphia run. The Aerotrain wa tested > on the PRR in 1956. I do not have the train number or a 1956 EET with the > schedule. > For what it's worth, in 1956, end of August or 1st week of September, I rode the Pelican from Penn Station to New Orleans. I saw the Aerotrain, I believe in 30th St Station, Philadelphia. This would place it there at somewhere around 9:00 PM. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 14:14:31 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: PRR Railway Operating Battlion Content-Length: 531 Kevin: One place to start is with back copies of the Pennsy magazine, the employee publication that PRR produced from June 1952 until the merger in 1968. It often contained items about reunions of the several PRR groups within the military railway service and, I believe, at least one feature story. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 14:12:54 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Aero Train The rest of the story Content-Length: 1949 Greetings, After having done some research here is the rest of the story.... GM Lightweight Trains & AEROTRAIN General Motors designed the "Aerotrain" in response to requests for a new type of train which could reduce both initial and operating costs. Two "Aerotrain" sets were built. Each consisted of an engine powered by a V-12, 567C, 1200HP EMD diesel. The engine had an unusual wheel arrangement of B-1. The front truck was a 2 axle and the rear had only 1 axle. This rear axle, as well as all wheels under the cars, was air bag suspended. All cars had one axle near the front and one axle near the rear. Each set had ten cars with steel underframes and aluminum bodies. The entire unit was painted silver with red trim. These units were built in 1956. The NYC leased one of these sets in January 1956 and in the fall of 1956 turned this set over to UP and AT&SF. This unit was numbered 1001 on the NYC. The other set was operated by thr PRR and was numbered 1000. Both sets were returned to General Motors in 1957. The RI purchased both sets in 1957 and operated them around Chicago in commuter service. RI also had another similar train which was given the number 1. This train had talgo type cars(with only one wheel set under each car). scrapped around 1965. The two "Aerotrain" sets were donated to museums in Green Bay and St. Louis some time in 1965. Information obtained from "The Second Diesel Spotters Guide" page EMD127, "Our GM Scrapbook" page 25 and "Diesel Locomotives of the New York Central System" pages 126,127 & 128. This should answer most questions except what happened to all the cars and their makeup. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 15:24:58 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 946 On 5 Feb, Robert A. Boyd wrote: > Actually, any kind of a long auto like a station wagon would look nice in > cats whiskers. Of would you do it in FOM scheme, since its a passenger > car? You would have to put a Keystone drumhead on the rear, too. This > could become the new litmus test of SPF purity? We have a dark green minivan (kinda sorta DGLE) that we've been thinking about painting five gold stripes on. It really helps that my wife's initials are PRR. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: PRR Railway Operating Battlion Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 12:52:21 PST Content-Length: 727 Can anyone help with getting copies of these articles? Kevin >Kevin: > >One place to start is with back copies of the Pennsy magazine, the >employee publication that PRR produced from June 1952 until the merger >in 1968. It often contained items about reunions of the several PRR >groups within the military railway service and, I believe, at least one >feature story. > >Dan Cupper ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Grades Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 12:53:50 PST Content-Length: 404 Does anyone know what the grade running from Bethlehem to Sunbury was? Kevin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:02:42 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 330 All these reports of where the Aero train ran ........ Anyone know how many trainsets were actually made ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 14:39:19 CST Subject: Duh, me... Content-Length: 712 Hi, everyone, A month or two or three back, I posted a request for info on PRR operations on the Cherry Tree & Dixonville, a branch in western PA co- operated by the PRR and (gasp) the NYC. I got a reply or two, made hard copies, and have managed to loose them (if you saw my office you wouldn't be surprised). Can those who responded do so again? Thanks! PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 17:00:23 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 480 At a few PRRT&HS conventions there was a beat up VW wagon painted a faded dark green shade (sort of like an Athearn factory painted PRR F unit) with 5 yellow pinstripes on the side coming to a point on the front. Somewhere I have a photo of it. Sorta cool... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 17:11:22 -0500 From: "Robert W. Johnston" Subject: Brass S-2 by Alco KMT Cat. S-125 Content-Length: 551 Could anyone out there with a copy of Brown's tell me what an Alco KMT S-2 Catalog number S-125 is worth and when it was made. I'm out on TDY and therefore don't have access to my copy and have found one at a local hobby shop. They want $540.00 for it, unpainted, good condition, original box w/foam. Should I buy it? TIA rwj ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Aero Train......from the 50's Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:12:20 -0500 Content-Length: 1725 Hi Rich, My Varney Aero train sold for $0.39 for the Engine and $0.29 for each car. The coach cars were the same as the tail car except you don't use the end part. The drive is sold by Bowser now, but was sold by Kemtron back then ! The Keystone has a article on it issue 3 of 1984. And if I remember correctly it has colored pictures on the front and rear covers. Hope this is of some help. Bill Knepper PS: Mine isn't on the layout eather.......But it's still Pennsy ! ---------- > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > To: drm6@psu.edu; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Aero Train > Date: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 12:07 PM > > In a message dated 98-02-03 12:11:56 EST, drm6@psu.edu writes: > > << The Bowser Aero Train model is not motorised. The original model was. I'm > pretty sure Bowser bought the tooling from the manufacturer of the earlier > model. I can't remember for sure who made it before but I think it may have > been Varney. So for the $75.00 you would have bought a static model. If > anyone has, plans or knows how to motorise it, it would make a good MR > article. > >> > The original tooling was indeed Varney. Bowser sells or did sell until last > year a power kit for the Aero Train. I don't have a price list with me. > > Rich Orr > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:54:25 -0600 (CST) From: "J. R. N. Witmer" Subject: Re: Poling cars Content-Length: 517 There was information, including text and photographs, on PRR poling cars in The Keystone, Summer 1989. p. 16, and Winter 1989, p. 4. I don't know if these back issues are available, but you could drop a line to the PRRT&HS at P. O. Box 389, Upper Darby, PA 19082. Captain Jack jwitmer@ais.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DocMorrow@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:06:26 EST Subject: magazines Content-Length: 399 Have 210 copies of TRAINS befor 1983 at 1.00 each all 210 for 200 plus UPS. Have 102 copies of MAINLINE magazine 102 dollars for the lot plus UPS.they are 1995 and older. docmorrow@aol ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DocMorrow@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:31:17 EST Subject: magazines Content-Length: 376 I have for sale,210 copies of TRAINS before 1983 200.00 dollars for the plus UPS.also102 copies of MAINLINE MODELER for 100.00 dollars plus UPS. docmorrow@aol ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory H. Mazzie" Subject: Pennsy Operations in DC area Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 Content-Length: 465 Hello folks, I am looking for any good sources of information on Pennsy operations in Washington, DC area prior to Conrail. If anyone knows of good books or has photos of area, I would be very interested. Thanks for any assistance. Greg Mazzie ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory H. Mazzie" Subject: Conrail Rule 556 Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:48:25 -0800 Content-Length: 620 Whenever a CSX train goes between Alexandria Subdivision and RF&P Subdivsion, the Conrail Harrisburg dispatcher gives the crew "Permission to run Rule 556". This is always given between CP Virginia (Virginia Ave., Washington, DC) and CP Anacostia (Washington, DC). Can anyone tell me the exact wording of Rule 556 and what it means??? Is this a Conrail rule or NORAC rule? Thanks, Greg Mazzie ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Cyber chapter agenda - help (fwd) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 22:32:21 EST Content-Length: 642 > I think this grew out of the "funding crunch" that I experienced in late > December. "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings" are funded for at least 12 > months. If I recall, most discussion at the time did not want an > additional list..."PRR-Talk" would be a "teaser" to get people to join > Cyber Chapter. Regardless. Why advertise if everyone will chip in $1 (or $) to run a Talk site? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:59:45 EST Subject: Re: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Content-Length: 1973 In a message dated 98-02-04 10:57:06 EST, Doug Drew wrote: << Subj: RE: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Date: 98-02-04 10:57:06 EST From: ddrew@channing-bete.com (Doug Drew) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <> Pennsy made its own contribution to the lightweight train fad, "The Keystone" also known as the 'tubular train' due to its construction, where the pulling forces on the couplers were transmitted through the car via the entire body of the car, vs. just the center sill. This was because the floors of the cars were lower than the height of the couplers. This was the train where one had to climb UP out of it to reach a high-level platform. Seated at a window, one got to admire the ankles and footwear of patrons waiting to board the train. Also a Budd product, and only used in the electrified zone, as far as I know. >> Rode in the Keystone numerous times starting in 1963; seems to have been used in "Clocker" service at the time, as I recall it going through New Brunswick multiple times in the course of one day's daylight hours. In addition to the tubular depressed center construction, the train was unique in having a power car to supply HEP to the coaches: made for a inflexible consist, as there was no corridor through the power car, AFAIK. I assume that the power system was some small Diesel, and that it was throttled down in Pennsylvania Station (or maybe parked it under the vent used by the GG1 steam generator (not needed for the Keystone). Ride seemed about the same as other cars used in "Clocker" service. Can't recall when I last saw it in use, 'twas either just before, or just after, I was in Vietnam in '70-'71. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 19:46:47 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Signals ofr N-scale Content-Length: 601 Hello, I want to put some lighted signals on my train layout. What were the 8 signal lights used for? Where do you put the lights in relationship to the switches? What kind of signals were used in classification yards? I've a small 4-lead classification yard and was thinking either dwarf signals or switch stands (no lights but metal flags or whatever). Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:59:51 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 1119 In a message dated 98-02-04 06:36:04 EST, Rich Copeland wrote: << Subj: Re: Aero Train Date: 98-02-04 06:36:04 EST From: PRRMAN@aol.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: ddrew@channing-bete.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, rboydrrs@inlink.com Somebody once told me that the cars actually were bus bodies. <> I recall that the intention was to match the look of the bus body, but the requirements to meet strength standards demanded that there be a completely new structural design: in addition to the write-ups in Trains, etc. (which would pointed out the difference between the bus and railcar designs (railcars were wider, for example), there were articles in Popular Mechanics, etc. which emphasized the "bus" design, and might have instilled the "urban legend" that the railcars were modified bus bodies. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Conrail Rule 556 (fwd) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 23:53:21 EST Content-Length: 1357 > Whenever a CSX train goes between Alexandria Subdivision and RF&P > Subdivsion, the Conrail Harrisburg dispatcher gives the crew "Permission to > run Rule 556". This is always given between CP Virginia (Virginia Ave., > Washington, DC) and CP Anacostia (Washington, DC). > > Can anyone tell me the exact wording of Rule 556 and what it means??? Is > this a Conrail rule or NORAC rule? Greg, you just _would_ have to ask now that my NORAC rules are in the car and not in my office, wouldn't you?? :-) To answer one question, Conrail rules _are_ NORAC rules. They're one and the same. The whole point of NORAC was so that engineers, conductors, etc. wouldn't have to double- or triple-qualify on sets of rules (e.g., Conrail + Amtrak + Long Island + Metro-North is one obvious example) Rule 556 is a cab signal rule, just from the rule numbering scheme. Since it's a CSX train from RF&P Sub to Alexandria Sub, I'll bet money they're being given permission to run the ex-PRR stretch _without_ needing cab signals. I can quote the rule for you tomorrow, if you still want. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Grays Ferry Branch Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 0:06:52 EST Content-Length: 1154 > > like you would be going to...Media or Wilmington..just after leaving > > the station on the right looked to be a abandoned tunnel or entrance to > >one. Anyone know what this area near the station > > Sounds like you're referring to the Gray's Ferry Branch. It came south > from Zoo, ran through Powelton Yard (where SEPTA MU's are stored > during off-peak hours), and joined the southward portion of the Suburban > Line inside the tunnel which takes southbound suburban trains under > Market and Chestnut Streets. Passengers seated on the west side > of the train can clearly see where the lines split, and the north end > of the Grays Ferry Branch tunnel. Rich, I really only started collecting ETTs in earnest after 1981, but I do have pre-Amtrak ones. Nevertheless, I seem to remember that the Grays Ferry Branch, even under PRR, began officially at ARSENAL, not ZOO. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 02:40:10 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) Content-Length: 835 Dennis writes: >We have a dark green minivan (kinda sorta DGLE) that we've >been thinking about painting five gold stripes on. It >really helps that my wife's initials are PRR. ===== You realize, of course, that if you do this, everyone will be hitting up on you to do the carpooling to conventions and railfanning? Think about it. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:59:53 EST Subject: Re: MP54 vs. Silverliner (was: R; Pennsy logo survivors) Content-Length: 1785 In a message dated 98-02-03 23:17:44 EST, Stephen Bartlett wrote: << Subj: Re: MP54 vs. Silverliner (was: R; Pennsy logo survivors) Date: 98-02-03 23:17:44 EST From: sbartlet@capecod.net (Stephen Bartlett) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <> But don't forget the ATSF Budd RDC car that turned over, apparently from excessive speed, on a 30 mph curve in California in the mid to late 1950's. It reportedly unzipped itself lengthwise, spilling and killing passengers into the debris. In the 1970's a heavyweight IC commuter MU train rear-ended a new, lightweight commuter MU train and totally telescoped into the rear car. I don't know who built the newer cars, but they were no match for the 1920 (?) vintage heavyweights. Steve Bartlett Working from memory with the possibility of correction as to details. >> Don't know about the ATSF Budd RDC, don't have ready access to my library, but give me a better date, and I'll look for news of the accident. The IC crash of 1972 (it had a big 25th year playback in the Chicago Tribune this past Fall) was of a moving older "heavyweight" (actually middleweight is better description) train (Pullman Standard assumed) into a standing train of new double-decker Pullman-Standard aluminum-bodied cars (which might weigh more per unit than the older IC cars). There was a "classic" telescope result, as the older car rode over the vestibule floor of the new car. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 06:28:59 EST Subject: Re: CT1000C Now Online Content-Length: 713 Good Morning, Yes, I saw them. I attempted to download the reader software last night but AOL is unable to maintain a connection long enough to download 3.9 megs, Thus I am putting the CT1000 on the back burner. Later I may just buy the CD. Thanks for your help. Now, back to the basement, after work, that is! Si ncerly, D on Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 07:49:49 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Conrail Rule 556 Content-Length: 1983 Gregory H. Mazzie wrote: > > Whenever a CSX train goes between Alexandria Subdivision and RF&P > Subdivsion, the Conrail Harrisburg dispatcher gives the crew "Permission to run Rule 556". > Can anyone tell me the exact wording of Rule 556 and what it means??? Is > this a Conrail rule or NORAC rule? > Greg, This would be a NORAC Rule; Conrail operates under those rules as a member of the committee. The following is taken from NORAC rules dated 1-1-90. Rule 556 is a Cab Signal Rule, which provides for the movement of a train or locomotive where the cab signal is not operative: "556. Movements made as provided for in Rules 552, 554 or 555 may be authorized by the train dispatcher to proceed at Normal Speed, not exceeding seventy-nine (79) miles per hour governed by fixed signal indication. A train must not pass a signal displaying a Restricting or Stop and Proceed, unless authorized by the train dispatcher. "Before the train dispatcher grants permission for a train to pass a Stop Signal, Stop and Proceed, or Restricting Signal, the train dispatcher must determine that the block to be entered is not occupied." Rule 552 concerns an inoperative portion of the wayside signal equipment, 554 prohibits movement of a train with inoperative cab signals, speed control, or automatic train stop in the direction of travel "except when failure occurs after engine leaves its initial terminal," and details that procedure. Rule 555 states "The movement of a train not equipped with cab signal apparatus is prohibited except as provided for in the Timetable. Movements authorized by Timetable shall operated at Restricted Speed and be governed by fixed signal indication." Steve Bartlett Former BCLR Dispatcher ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 07:54:52 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Conrail Rule 556 (fwd) Content-Length: 676 Mark D Bej wrote: > > Rule 556 is a cab signal rule, just from the rule numbering scheme. Since > it's a CSX train from RF&P Sub to Alexandria Sub, I'll bet money they're > being given permission to run the ex-PRR stretch _without_ needing cab > signals. > I'll second that one - I don't know who has what cab signal equipment, but that would bring Rule 555 into play and allow the train to operate at greater than Restricted Speed. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 7:32:33 EST From: Subject: PRR tank cars Content-Length: 1084 Hello everyone, Another question from the novice PRR fan. I believe its the next to last page of PRR Color Guide to Freight & Passenger Equipment, Vol 1, there is a picture of a PRR three domed tank car. The caption under the photo says that althought the PRR did not have a fleet of tank cars for revenue service they did own some for yard service and transporting diesel fuel, lubricants, etc. In this specific photo, which I believe was taken in the early 60s, the lettering style was the very plain and simple PRR and it was painted the pre-1954ish battleship gray MOW scheme. Does anyone know if thses cars would have been stenciled with PENNSYLVANIA spelled out? How common were these cars? Would they only have been used around large yards? Would they actually travel between different locations? Thanksin advance, Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 8:59:18 EST From: Subject: Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) Content-Length: 7786 In response to Dennis' comment on painting stripes on the family minivan take it one step further. I think in the quest for the epitomy of grace and elegance, to equal that of his wife's, the stripes should be gold duluxe with a circle and keystone located just behind the front doors. Consider a toluidine red keystone, outlined in that same stunning gold on the sloping hood of the family vehicle and the statement is complete. Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd), on 2/6/98 2:40 AM: Dennis writes: >We have a dark green minivan (kinda sorta DGLE) that we've >been thinking about painting five gold stripes on. It >really helps that my wife's initials are PRR. ===== You realize, of course, that if you do this, everyone will be hitting up on you to do the carpooling to conventions and railfanning? Think about it. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Pennsy Operations in DC area Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:22:07 -0500 Content-Length: 597 > Hello folks, I am looking for any good sources of information on > Pennsy > operations in Washington, DC area prior to Conrail. _________________ Do you know how to access archived newsgroup postings using "dejanews"? I don't, but perhaps one of your local cyberheads can show you. This list had a thread going on this very subject not more than three or four months ago. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:31:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR cars Content-Length: 715 I had to wipe my system and start over. I thought I had saved all the important stuff out of the system folder, but forgot that Netscape bookmarks are in there somewhere. Someone on this list, I forget who, has a web page that lists manufacturers of PRR rolling stock and rates them for authenticity. Would someone please send me the URL for that page. Thanks Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:32:54 -0600 Subject: PRR tank cars -Reply Content-Length: 2141 "The Keystone", Vol 17 No. 1, Spring 1984, had an article on PRR's Series TM Steel Tank Cars. I don't have a copy of the article here at work (but I do have a list of available back issues). As I remember the article, the Pennsy had a fleet of tank cars for customer use but sometime before WWII removed them from revenue service in favor of customer owned and third party cars such as GATX. While in revenue service I believe they were painted freight car red. Some were retained for MOW service and repainted gray. The one you saw the photo of was a three dome car with three separate compartments specifically used for collecting used oil for later reclaimation. As I understand it, the "oil" car traveled to various engine service facilities to collect the used oil. "The Keystone" issue is still available as a back issue from the PRRT&HS for $8 including postage. BTW, Champ Decals offers a set of decals for PRR tank cars. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>>>>>>> "kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL" 02/06/98 09:53am wrote>>> Hello everyone, Another question from the novice PRR fan. I believe its the next to last page of PRR Color Guide to Freight & Passenger Equipment, Vol 1, there is a picture of a PRR three domed tank car. The caption under the photo says that althought the PRR did not have a fleet of tank cars for revenue service they did own some for yard service and transporting diesel fuel, lubricants, etc. In this specific photo, which I believe was taken in the early 60s, the lettering style was the very plain and simple PRR and it was painted the pre-1954ish battleship gray MOW scheme. Does anyone know if thses cars would have been stenciled with PENNSYLVANIA spelled out? How common were these cars? Would they only have been used around large yards? Would they actually travel between different locations? Thanksin advance, Kris Kollar >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: Conrail Rule 556 (fwd) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:41:20 -0500 Content-Length: 1350 Mark Bej wrote: >To answer one question, Conrail rules _are_ NORAC rules. They're one and >the same. The whole point of NORAC was so that engineers, conductors, >etc. wouldn't have to double- or triple-qualify on sets of rules >(e.g., Conrail + Amtrak + Long Island + Metro-North is one obvious >example) LIRR still requires dual qualification (NORAC rules apply to the HAROLD Tower-Penn Station territory) since it maintains its own rule book. It did not sign up for the NORAC book since the LIRR has substantial dark territory and its rules examiners (and actually, the attitude was prevalent throughout all levels of the LIRR) wanted to maintain the "in writing" tradition rather than adopt the rubrics of "verbal authority". Considering the LIRR operates 730+ passenger trains a day, maintaining the "old" ways adds that extra element of safety. LIRR Special Instructions address the differences between the two rule books (primarily the use of Form D) and special training materials were developed to handle the distinctions. Made Complete Richard F. Makse Twinney Pond Associates maxrail@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 06 Feb 98 12:18:13 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Pennsy Operations in DC area Content-Length: 3015 --====48515555545051494956===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Dejanews is a web site archive of newsgroup postings, and can be accessed by most any web browser, even if you are not set up to use newsgroups normally. Not all RR newsgroups are archived, but it would be a start. Searching can be done by keyword, or by date of posting. It's a Really Useful Site. Find it at www.dejanews.com -- Doug Drew Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > >> Hello folks, I am looking for any good sources of information on >> Pennsy >> operations in Washington, DC area prior to Conrail. >_________________ >Do you know how to access archived newsgroup postings using "dejanews"? >I don't, but perhaps one of your local cyberheads can show you. This >list had a thread going on this very subject not more than three or four >months ago. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48515555545051494956===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dejanews is a web site archive of newsgroup postings, and can be accessed by most any web browser, even if you are not set up to use newsgroups normally. Not all RR newsgroups are archived, but it would be a start. Searching can be done by keyword, or by date of posting. It's a Really Useful Site.
Find it at www.dejanews.com
-- Doug Drew

Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote:
>
>> Hello folks, I am looking for any good sources of information on
>> Pennsy
>> operations in Washington, DC area prior to Conrail.
>_________________
>Do you know how to access archived newsgroup postings using "dejanews"?
>I don't, but perhaps one of your local cyberheads can show you. This
>list had a thread going on this very subject not more than three or four
>months ago.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48515555545051494956===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR cars Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 12:52:46 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 294 Don, That's my page. It's at http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/freight Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:33:59 -0500 Content-Length: 2250 In 1988, in the city of York, Pa. there were the K-4 trips ! Sitting on the grass along Pershing Street was a Chevy full size van, and yes it was painted for the PRR ! That is it was painted in Tuscan Red color, it has a single horn on the roof, a third headlight in the center of the hood, 5 strip (cat wiskers and strips) down the sides, with "PENNSYLVANIA" in yellow gold color under the strips, it also had the number 5898 at the side of the headhight on each front fender, and last but not least.......... it has a "KEYSTONE" with PRR in it on the front, in the center of the grill. Sorry, but I did not get the chance to get around back to see if it had a number on the backside ! I was working with the rest of the Northern Central Chapter as car host for the trips. I'll try and get it scanned, or maybe Jerry will scan it ? Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Dennis Rockwell > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) > Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 3:24 PM > > On 5 Feb, Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > > Actually, any kind of a long auto like a station wagon would look nice in > > cats whiskers. Of would you do it in FOM scheme, since its a passenger > > car? You would have to put a Keystone drumhead on the rear, too. This > > could become the new litmus test of SPF purity? > > We have a dark green minivan (kinda sorta DGLE) that we've > been thinking about painting five gold stripes on. It > really helps that my wife's initials are PRR. > > Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA > _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ > ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### > > I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:54:06 Subject: Re: Decals in N for Hoopers Content-Length: 1375 Hi Roger, Try CDS Lettering PO Box 78003 Cityview, Nepean, Ontario, Canada K2G 5W2 Set N240 is labeled PRR GLca twin hopper - "Coal goes to War" ca. 1942 Also, try Oddballs Decals at http://members.aol.com/RSD15Gator/oddballs.htm Till later... Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N sale) San Francisco, CA > Date sent: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:27:36 -0800 > From: Roger Elliott > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Decals in N for Hoopers > Hello! > I wrote a while ago about getting some decals for my PRR hoppers in > Nscale. I got an address for Northeastern Decals and I shot a letter > off to them. I haven't heard a thing though and was wondering if anyone > had a phone number. Or how about other suppliers since Microscale > doesn't make decals for the PRR hoppers..... > > Thanks, > Roger Elliott > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Web Site Update Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 18:26:37 PST Content-Length: 832 Just thought everyone would like to know that the FM&C homepage has been updated, and now contains the system map (this takes a little while to load, based on your modem and CPU), rosters and a new Modern Pennsylvania Railroad Project Forum page. For the WIPRR guys, the roster is there, and I'm working on the timeline. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Overgrown Chevys) From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 23:28:52 EST Content-Length: 3208 I have seen that van... Northbound on Rooseveldt Blvd spring of 1992. I believe there is a picture and ownership data in an early issue of Railfan MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:33:59 -0500 "Bill Knepper" writes: >In 1988, in the city of York, Pa. there were the K-4 trips ! Sitting >on >the grass along Pershing Street was a Chevy full size van, and yes it >was >painted for the PRR ! >That is it was painted in Tuscan Red color, it has a single horn on >the >roof, a third headlight in the center of the hood, 5 strip (cat >wiskers and >strips) down the sides, with "PENNSYLVANIA" in yellow gold color under >the >strips, it also had the number 5898 at the side of the headhight on >each >front fender, and last but not least.......... it has a "KEYSTONE" >with PRR >in it on the front, in the center of the grill. Sorry, but I did not >get >the chance to get around back to see if it had a number on the >backside ! >I was working with the rest of the Northern Central Chapter as car >host for >the trips. >I'll try and get it scanned, or maybe Jerry will scan it ? > >Bill Knepper > >---------- >> From: Dennis Rockwell >> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) >> Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 3:24 PM >> >> On 5 Feb, Robert A. Boyd wrote: >> >> > Actually, any kind of a long auto like a station wagon would look >nice >in >> > cats whiskers. Of would you do it in FOM scheme, since its a >passenger >> > car? You would have to put a Keystone drumhead on the rear, too. > >This >> > could become the new litmus test of SPF purity? >> >> We have a dark green minivan (kinda sorta DGLE) that we've >> been thinking about painting five gold stripes on. It >> really helps that my wife's initials are PRR. >> >> Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA >> _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ >> >####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### >> >> I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:51:56 EST Subject: Re: Aero Train Content-Length: 783 In a message dated 98-02-04 12:22:53 EST, hosam@gc.net writes: >NYC's was silver and red trim. So was PRR's! Red along the window bands and at the same height on the engine. (Not tuscan red, the bright red which came into use later). I believe everything else was stainless steel. In addition to NYC and Rock Island, a set of Aerotrain equipment ran for a while in Los Angeles-Las Vegas service on the UP. I think it was called the "Las Vegas Holiday Special". Could all four of these roads have been using the same set of equipment? Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:51:55 EST Subject: Re: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Content-Length: 692 In a message dated 98-02-04 10:57:06 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: >Seated at a window, one got to admire the ankles and footwear of patrons >waiting to board the train. I kinda liked the Keystone! But am glad I never had to ride far in it. Also a Budd product, and only used in the >electrified zone, as far as I know. I believe you're right, although, after Amtrak, the equipment eventually found its way into commuter service in Detroit. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:52:01 EST Subject: Re: Keystone (was Aerotrain) Content-Length: 603 In a message dated 98-02-05 01:01:36 EST, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: >Initially the Aerotrain was on a NY - Pittsburgh - NY daily run. Does anyone know how they handled the train between Penn Station and Newark? The two obvious choices are: change engines (probably at Hunter), or just tow the entire train behind a GG1 and start the diesel after leaving the tunnel. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 05:52:01 EST Subject: PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 Content-Length: 329 Does anyone know anything about the quality of this steam locomotive made by Penn Line. Harold Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:43:31 EST Subject: Re: PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 Content-Length: 1484 Greetings Harold, I've always thought the Penn Line now Bowser T1 was a good model. When compared to the prototype it appears to have all the complex curves and mutiple planes of the original. That's good considering the model was intoduced about 1948 and was relativly unchanged when Bowser pulled it off the market several years ago. As of 2/6/98, I here that a greatly improved T1 will be out in a few weeks from them. The drive is brute force as those two DC 71's have more than enough torque. The frame is articulated unlike the prototype. It runs well but on tight curves (less that 36" radius) the overhang looks silly. At one time a one piece cover plate was available to make the drive rigid but the minimum radius was over 40". I have built 2 T1s for myself and a couple for customers. I found that the earlier runs (prior to about 1980) had much cleaner superstucture castings that the later ones did. I guess the tooling was showing its age.The super detail kit is a must as detail is on the light side. People who have seen the new one tell me that the boiler is exquisite. The drive is unchanged. I am looking forward to getting my hands on one as soon as possible. I hope these comments help. Don Murphy, a steam locomotive afficianado. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Modern PRR Locomotives Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:10:22 PST Content-Length: 871 I am looking for locomotive nuts to help in developing a list of detail parts for the modern PRR locomotives. Mostly with the "family" parts that will make the locomotives "belong" together. An example of this is what type of horn should we go with? Same on all locomotives, or different on 4 axle (switchers and road units same or different?) and six axle? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:56:15 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) Content-Length: 979 Hi All, Kris, I think, wrote, > snip.................the stripes should be gold duluxe with a circle and > keystone located just behind the front doors. Consider a toluidine red > keystone, outlined in that same stunning gold on the sloping hood of the > family vehicle and the statement is complete. I've been considering the first BP20 scheme for my Ford van: DGLE with the 5 Gold Stripes ending at the Circled Keystone behind the cab doors, etc...(no nose "whiskers"). The only concern I have is the amount of solar gain a, basically, black vehicle receives during the summer. Living in the NW I don't think I'll have too much trouble with old SPF's "flagging" me down. AND I wouldn't mind at all if they did! Keep on 4-Trackin' Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:59:15 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Overgrown Chevys) Content-Length: 749 Mike Allen reports: >I have seen that van... Northbound on Rooseveldt Blvd spring of 1992. I >believe there is a picture and ownership data in an early issue of >Railfan ===== Gawd! Have we been reduced to railfanning other railfans? Incestuous! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:04:04 EST Content-Length: 1369 [This is posted to both the RR and PRR lists] Some months back there was a thread concerning both additional tunnels from New Jersey to New York and trains from the suburbs crossing Manhattan enroute to other suburbs. In the November 1984 issue of Trains John Kneiling's column outlines the original PRR plan for connecting the H&M, IRT, and Long Island for through service and how it was shot down for purely political [as opposed to economic considerations. There is another column from the late sixties or early seventies [I haven't found it yet] which outlines the PRR plan to create downtown airlines termila at Penn Station and connect EWR, LGA, and JFK with dedicated train service. The more things change.... MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:45:19 -0800 From: Sharon Edwards Subject: Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) Content-Length: 446 Ron Dugas wrote: > > Hi All, > snip Living in the NW I don't think I'll > have too much trouble with old SPF's "flagging" me down. AND I wouldn't > mind at all if they did! > Where in the northwest? Doug Edwards ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 14:34:40 EST Content-Length: 1526 As I now correct my own spelling... MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:04:04 EST ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) writes: >[This is posted to both the RR and PRR lists] > >Some months back there was a thread concerning both additional tunnels >from New Jersey to New York and trains from the suburbs crossing >Manhattan enroute to other suburbs. > > In the November 1984 issue of Trains John Kneiling's column outlines >the original PRR plan for connecting the H&M, IRT, and Long Island for >through service and how it was shot down for purely political [as >opposed to economic considerations. > >There is another column from the late sixties or early seventies [I >haven't found it yet] which outlines the PRR plan to create downtown >airlines terminal at Penn Station and connect EWR, LGA, and JFK with >dedicated train service. > >The more things change.... > >MEA _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:53:40 EST Subject: Re: Keystone Content-Length: 484 There is a photo on Pennsy Power III of the Keystone behind a GG!. I would suspect that the GG1 hauled the train to Harrisburg where power would be changed as on most other passenger trains. When shifted to the NY-Washington run, probably GG1's all the way Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 12:08:42 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 Content-Length: 1097 Hal6963@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone know anything about the quality of this steam locomotive > made by > Penn Line. > > Harold > Hello Harold, I happen to have an old PennLine T-1 that I'm really pleased with. It's not detailed like a brass loco and it does tend to "hunt" its way sown the track, but I'd like to see any brass loco bull the complete Broadway Limited (14 cars at present) up any sort of a grade. That heavy body and the dual motors really HAUL! I bought a set of Boxpock drivers from Bowser and some new valve gear and after repainting, it looks really great. If yours has poor motors, you could probably relace them pretty easily with the new can jobs. I'm still using the original open frame motors. For a fifty year-old loco model, I'm really pleased. And paying only $55 was a real treat! Hope this helps, Roger Elliott Arcata CA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:58:50 -0500 Content-Length: 1523 Have you read.................. ---------- > From: Rod > Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad > Subject: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 2:48 PM > > This is no joke! Read! > > We are writing to you to inform you of a very important matter > currently > under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a > proposal > with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your Internet > service.They > contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the > telephone > network. It is our belief that Internet usage will diminish if users > were > required to pay additional per minute charges and the proposed > resolution > constitutes just plain bad public policy. The FCC has created an > e-mail box > for your comments. Responses must be received by February 13, 1998. > Send your comments to: > > isp@fcc.gov > > and tell them what you think. > Every phone company is in on this one (it will be a windfall for them) > and > they are trying to quietly sneak it in. Let everyone you know hear > about > this one. > Send this e-mail address to everyone you can think of. > ----- > > Rod > http://www.linkline.com/personal/hotrod4x5 > > E mail hotrod4x5@hotmail.com > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Fw: per minute charges ? -Reply Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:07:10 -0500 Content-Length: 1325 Guess I am out of date with this issue.... ---------- > From: ISP > To: liberty@infonline.net > Subject: per minute charges ? -Reply > Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 5:54 PM > > This is an automated response to the message you sent to isp@fcc.gov. We established this mailbox for informal comments about usage of the public switched telephone network by Internet access and information service providers for a proceeding on this matter in 1997. > > If you are responding to a message stating that local phone companies have asked the FCC for permission to impose per-minute charges for Internet access, please be aware that this information is out of date. The FCC decided in May 1997 NOT to allow imposition of interstate access charges on Internet service providers. There is no comment period currently open in this proceeding. > > More information on Access Charges and the ISP proceeding is available at > > Look for more features and announcements on our Web site, , in the future! > > updated 1/6/98.. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:11:46 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke Content-Length: 1901 Yea, it's a hoax - and one that has been going out for years at that. At 05:58 PM 2/7/98 -0500, Liberty wrote: >Have you read.................. > >---------- >> From: Rod >> Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad >> Subject: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke >> Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 2:48 PM >> >> This is no joke! Read! >> >> We are writing to you to inform you of a very important matter >> currently >> under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a >> proposal >> with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your Internet >> service.They >> contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the >> telephone >> network. It is our belief that Internet usage will diminish if users >> were >> required to pay additional per minute charges and the proposed >> resolution >> constitutes just plain bad public policy. The FCC has created an >> e-mail box >> for your comments. Responses must be received by February 13, 1998. >> Send your comments to: >> >> isp@fcc.gov >> >> and tell them what you think. >> Every phone company is in on this one (it will be a windfall for them) >> and >> they are trying to quietly sneak it in. Let everyone you know hear >> about >> this one. >> Send this e-mail address to everyone you can think of. >> ----- >> >> Rod >> http://www.linkline.com/personal/hotrod4x5 >> >> E mail hotrod4x5@hotmail.com >> > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:03:24 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke Content-Length: 670 On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Liberty wrote: > Have you read.................. [fcc thing deleted] I wish this would just die already; This is at least 2 years old, and is not currently ongoing. Anything which you get which is suggested you remail to everyone you know, is probably an "urban legend" like this; The FCC did consider "data line" charges, but that was quite a while ago. If anyone cares I'll dig up a URL, but please, let it die. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:44:17 +0000 From: Iain A Fraser Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke Content-Length: 409 This is a hoax. Benn circulating around the mailing lists and newsgroups for a long time. Iain AEROLITE BOOKTRADERS New and Used rail books www.aerolite.u-net.com _______________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:04:22 -0600 Content-Length: 415 Folks... FYI....to those that know... To those that are not aware, please check out before spreading rumors similar to this one, particularly OLD ones.. Thanks... ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:26:15 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke Content-Length: 1842 Bob Webber wrote: > Yea, it's a hoax - and one that has been going out for years at that. > > At 05:58 PM 2/7/98 -0500, Liberty wrote: > >Have you read.................. > > > >---------- > >> From: Rod > >> Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad > >> Subject: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > >> Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 2:48 PM > >> > >> This is no joke! Read! > >> > >> We are writing to you to inform you of a very important matter > >> currently > >> under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a > >> proposal > >> with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your Internet > >> service.They > >> contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the Hello, As a student working on his Masters in telecomm, I can tell you it is NOT a hoax. This was a very seriously debated issue, because YES our internet use does hinder the network. It is still debated but as I understand it from my instructor who still works within the telecomm business, the solutions that are being worked out are the advent of internet over the cable TV network, Changing the phone lines to handle the increased bandwidth of the internet is going to take a lot of money. Don't be surprised if the telecomm industry finds other ways to get us to pay for this infrastructure. In other countries you have to pay for the use of e-mail. I have friends in Indonesia and Europe who say you have to pay for every e-mail you send. May advice is learn to download everything quickly and do the rest of your work offline! Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:00:52 +0000 Subject: More info on Aerotrain Content-Length: 965 Lots of info has been put out on the list about the Aero train, some evidently incorrect. I am reading from a Catalog of the Collections of the National Museum of Transport in St. Louis, hopefully this is correct: There were two (2) Aerotrains built in 1955, each composed of loco and 10 cars to accomodate appx. 400 passengers. After initial demonstrations on the New York Central, Pennsylvania and Union Pacific railroads, the trains were purchased by the Rock Island in 1958 for suburban passenger service between Chicago and Joliet, IL. They were replaced on April 23, 1965 by double deck commuter cars. The NMOT received one power unit and two cars on November 18, 1966. Hope this sheds some better light on the AEROTRAIN. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 22:30:37 EST Content-Length: 1064 To connect The H&M with the LIRR at Flatbush requires crossing Manhattan. Follow the lines on a good map such as an older Hagstrom's Manhattan which has streets, Railroads and transit lines on it and the routing will make sense. ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:01:11 EST Jayjay1213@aol.com writes: >In the November 1984 article wasnt he talking about the connection at >the >LIRRs Flatbush Terminal which is in Brooklyn,. not manhattan. > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:55:15 EST Subject: Re: Overgrown Chevys Content-Length: 670 In a message dated 98-02-05 13:20:32 EST, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: >Actually, any kind of a long auto like a station wagon would look nice in >cats whiskers. Anyone who can do so without much difficulty should check out the tourist operation at Laurel Highlands RR, in Scottsdale, PA. The guy who essentially runs the operation has a van, beautifully done in DGLE with 5 stripes and keystones. Hate to say it, but the thing really looks good. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 04:36:12 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: GG-1 sounds Content-Length: 373 Hi folks.... Does anyone out there have a midi type file for GG-1 sounds...hopefully a horn. Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Aerotrain..powering Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 05:41:16 -0500 Content-Length: 791 Well, after the last post I stupidly put up (Sorry), perhaps you'll like this one better. I spoke with Bill Reed at Alco, and what he has is a die-cast frame and instructions on using an Athearn RS-__ switcher for the power truck and drive. It is a cost effective method, and very easy. The frame kit sells for $ 19.95. he still has them available. You can reach him at : 1-610-845-7300 -or- Alco Products 312 Hunter Forge Rd. Macungie, PA. 18062 The whole conversion should cost less than $ 40.00 ! The train itself is available from Bowser. -Joe Zappa ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:38:54 EST Subject: Video Yesteryear Content-Length: 558 An advertisement in the Sunday paper by the above firm listed their Volume 3 as "Films of the Pennsy" - and includes "Progress On The Rails" - "Wheels Of Steel" - "Opening A New Frontier" - "Clear Track Ahead." The advertisement claims these are long-lost company films. Has anyone ever heard of these titles? Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:39:07 EST Subject: Re: Video Yesteryear Content-Length: 1019 In a message dated 98-02-08 10:44:31 EST, Harold McGee writes: << An advertisement in the Sunday paper by the above firm listed their Volume 3 as "Films of the Pennsy" - and includes "Progress On The Rails" - "Wheels Of Steel" - "Opening A New Frontier" - "Clear Track Ahead." The advertisement claims these are long-lost company films. Has anyone ever heard of these titles? >> Yes, they were company promo films. "Clear Track Ahead", which I have, has been issued many times, by itself and in combo with others. In addition,scenes from it have ben lifted and used in other videos. Some interesting shots of T1 testing and servicing, cabsignals, and inductive trainphone use, but a lot of publicity stuff versus railfan stuff. I don't know what is on the other films. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 15:18:24 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: "Keystone" tubular train Content-Length: 1132 Hi you all.... Here might be a answer to what they did with the "Keystone" tubular train power car in tunnels and places like Penn station,N.Y. This is from a Penn Central Eastern Region ETT No.2 Dec. 1968 page 206 Tubular Train-Diesel Power Car Operation in Tunnels or Confined Locations 1154-A18. The load on diesel engines in power car must be re- duced by placing heat control switch on lighting switchboard panel in one or more tubular coaches in "LOW HEAT" position at the following locations: Tunnels and Confined Locations Between Zoo Interlocking Station and Arsenal Interlocking Station. After the Train has moved from the tunnels or restricted area the heat control switch must be returned to the "NORMAL HEAT" position. note the train was still in use as of Dec. 1968 Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 15:26:59 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: A Washington wreck rule? Content-Length: 1022 Hi again... I also found this rule in the Dec. 1968 PC ETT for the Eastern Region from page No.206 also 1154-A16 (Chesapeake Division). Southward pasenger trains will make running test of brakes as defined in Instruction 16 of the 99-D-1 Brake and Train Air Signal Intructions,immediately after passing Lanham. Hmmmmm i wonder if this has anything to do with 4876's 1950's wreck at Union station. Lanham Md. is south of Baltimore just out side Washington,D.C. Hmmmmm if the brakes failed maybe the idea was to radio to have the train switched to the freight track at Landover or to the Lower level at Washington Union station. Anyone know? Jerry does it have anything in your PRR ETT? Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Tidbits Date: Sun, 8 Feb 98 16:00:17 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2010 Just got back from the meeting of the Northern Central Chapter, PRRT&HS. Some news: The "Triumph" series was originally thought to be seven volumes, with one or two Pennsy. Not so. The following is the slated plan, for ALL Pennsy books: Volume II Philadelphia Division Volume III Middle Division Volume IV New Yro Division Volume V Maryland Division --- that's me! Volume VI Pittsburgh Division Even though we've identified some factual errors within the text, "Triumph I" contains enough photos and track charts not found elsewhere that I would definitely continue to buy them. Sorry, no word on schedule. The publisher is soliciting information and photos. Future NCC meetings for 1998: April 19, Sept. 13, Nov. 8. The chapter was approached by national PRRT&HS about hosting the year 2000 convention. The chapter approved. Looks like we'll be in York in two years. (Gotta work on my layout; I'm only 20 minutes away!) For those who previously had negative comments about York: 1) The venue will be larger - the York Days Inn, rather than the Yorktown Hotel. 2) The Liberty Limited dinner train runs between York and New Freedom. We would try to arrange an excursion through them on NCR trackage and perhaps from York down the Frederick Branch. 3) A walking tour of downtown York trackage: NCR dual track main, junction with Frederick Branch, junction with Columbia Branch, interchange with Ma & Pa, etc. Busy place! Bowser's T-1 "should" ship in about a month. There was a part that broke in the mold that had to be re-tooled. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:19:06 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Video Yesteryear Content-Length: 1242 Greetings to harold and the group, I don't know about all of them being 'long lost titles'. Clear Track Ahead and Progress on the Rails have been readily available on video for a number of years. The local library here even has both of those titles on 16mm. Those two are great films. Progress on the Rails does a nice job explaining the PRR's train phone system. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 10:38 AM 2/8/98 EST, Hal6963@aol.com wrote: >An advertisement in the Sunday paper by the above firm listed their Volume 3 >as "Films of the Pennsy" - and includes "Progress On The Rails" - "Wheels Of >Steel" - "Opening A New Frontier" - "Clear Track Ahead." The advertisement >claims these are long-lost company films. Has anyone ever heard of these >titles? > >Harold McGee >Gainesville, FL > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: Details--the family look Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:23:02 PST Content-Length: 2406 >Hello again. Here we go starting on the details. I would say that first >we work out the common items and the things that make it a family >appearance. What exactly are we looking for in the family appearance line? > I would say horn, type of antenna used, plow. I would say all modern cab >units would have air conditioning in them (wide cabs I mean). For the air >horn Pennsy used a different model Nathan all the way up until the last >order for EMD SD45s which went to the Leslie 3-chime air horn the style of >Details West #190--so the decision needs to be made on this one. Pennsy >would have stuck with the Sinclair style antenna on all their new units >ordered. I do not, however, feel they would have changed from the >firecracker antenna on the NS units. Is there a reason why they were used >over the Sinclair antenna on the NW and Southern? Possibly a stronger >signal for all the deep mountain running or something? If there is a >definite reason why they order them that way--Pennsy may have special >ordered those for the "Southern Division" units. The plow I feel should be >like the one used by the majority of modern Class ones which is the same as >Details West part number 155. These are used by the ATSF on most of their >units, BN, Conrail (very close), and CSX. The PRR would have definitely >stuck with the cab signal box. I feel this box would only be out and >visible on older hood units. Units with the wide cabs and 116" long noses >(for the SD40-2s ala UP style) would have the signal boxes inside the nose. > Some items to ponder. I would have to agree with Jeremy on all of this stuff. The type of antenna is important, and if one type works better in the mountains, and another where it's flatter, that's what has to be done. Sometimes keeping two parts over one is not desireable, but necessary. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: Details--the family look Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:26:55 PST Content-Length: 2230 >I would guess that since they switched to the Leslie on the last ordered >locos (before the demise we are ignoring), that all new units from that >point forward would have the Leslies. But who knows? The Alaska RR has >not only gone back to the 5 chime from the 3 chime, but they keep >switching the bloody locations for the things! Enough to drive a modeler >nuts!! Can youguys find out from the Pennsy list if the Leslie horns on >the SD45's were just a "test" thing or if there was a deficiency with >the Nathans that caused a switch? Maybe it was just $$$$ (3-chime is >less expensive than a 5-chime)? I disagree about the antennas. If Pennsy >used the Sinclairs, then as the NS units went in for major shopping, >they would have had their antennas changed (as well as lights, horns, >any nose-chopping) to make them "Pennsy" units. The parts guys are gonna >tell you that given a choice of stocking one or two different parts, >they'll pick one everytime.... Besides, repeaters in the mountains allow >any antenna to be effective. As for plows, what kind of plows was Pennsy >using at the end? This would have continued. I wonder if they would have >considered adding SF style A/C to the roofs of all those spartan NS >units operating in the hot south?? Remember, NS just this past year >FINALLY joined the ranks of comfort cab owners! The rest of Jeremy's >ideas sound right on to me. FWIW from AK! Cheers! > I don't know about the Antenna issue now. I'm kind of agreeing with Jeff. Repeaters are expensive though, and if you can use a type of antenna that doesn't require them, would you buy the repeater or the antenna? The antenna would be more versatle. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:37:14 EST Subject: Re: Video Yesteryear Content-Length: 867 In a message dated 98-02-08 10:44:31 EST, Hal6963@aol.com writes: << An advertisement in the Sunday paper by the above firm listed their Volume 3 as "Films of the Pennsy" - and includes "Progress On The Rails" - "Wheels Of Steel" - "Opening A New Frontier" - "Clear Track Ahead." The advertisement claims these are long-lost company films. Has anyone ever heard of these titles? >> These are official PRR ad films. I don't know about being long lost. They have been available from time to time from a number of rail film marketers. Anyone claimiing they are long lost is ahh well let's say employing an advertising gimmick. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: What If the PRR had Survived? Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:58:37 PST Content-Length: 765 I thought I'd repost this letter from Rich Orr, as I didn't hear much conversation about it: What of Amtrak. Would PRR have not joined and thus probably crippled Amtrak? Would it have kept the lucrative NE Corridor and given everthing else to Amtrak? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:08:41 PST Content-Length: 774 I was thinking we should include Electrics like the E60F in our history at least. Does anyone know what year Conrail de-electrified? Can anyone point out a feasabe reason why the Modern PRR would keep part of the system electrified? Up to what date? Motive power? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Appologies Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:48:24 PST Content-Length: 1510 To all, I posted a message to the group a little while ago, and I hope I didn't offend anyone. As with all major projects, someone has to be incharge, and I think perhaps on reading it again, the wording in my post didn't sound too good. Anyone who know's me personally, will tell you that I sometimes have a problem expressing an idea or point. My post was not ment to piss anyone off, but Jeff, Jeremy and I have done almost a years worth of work on this project already, and have most everything to do with the roster and history worked out with exception to the small details in the history. Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone. If you're pissed and it just won't go away with an appology, then I guess you don't have to ever read one of my posts again, or visit my site for that matter. If you're ok with me and Jeremy being in charge of the project, I await your comments,suggestions, and knowledge on how to make the Modern PRR better and more believable. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: Modern PRR Locomotives Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:09:36 PST Content-Length: 7752 > I will admit to being a CLN (certified loco nut). Before I get into the >matter of details, I would like to comment on the locomotive roster on your >web site. Although I am not particularly a fan of electrics, I would >suspect the modern PRR would have a good many electrics on their roster. >In fact due to the rise in cost of diesel fuel, atmospheric pollution, and >an estimated rise in commuter trains, it seems inevitable the PRR would >pursue this path. Please give this some thought and if you agree maybe >some new electrics could be added to the roster. Maybe some experimentals, >the like of which we will never see, due to the PRR getting out of the >passenger business. The GG-1's were on their last legs in the 80's and a >suitable replacement was not pursued. Prr would definitely have found or >maybe built their own replacement to this great railroad machine. Well I'm >sure you get the idea. I'm going to try to tackle this one, but I'd like others opinions also. Although it may be a good idea, I don't think the MPRR would go this route. Although we aren't trying to emulate ConRail or NS/CSX, I believe that we should look at their modern practices in relation to what we are doing here. None of these three large eastern roads are looking into this as far as I know. Yes, this would look good to the EPA (and not to mention the eastern power companies), and the MPRR could generate it's own power, but the technology that goes into providing power for pulling freight over long distances may save you money in motive power and fuel costs, but would eat up that saved money in maintenance. I saw a program on the electrified lines across the country, and from what I gathered, most of them were used due to city ordenances or fire hazards (pacific northwest). Also, ConRails non-pursuit of a replacement (or should I say, realistically looked) would tell me that perhaps from a railroads standpoint it just wasn't worth it. As I said before, this is only my opinion. If enough of you want electrics on the roster, and the majority of us can agree on it, I'll put them in, no problem. (FYI, I love GG1's and Little Joes too!) > Now, details, one item that made the PRR diesels distinctive was the >trainphone antennas. These were phased out in the 60's. I'm not sure what >would be used to replace them in the 90's, but a whip antenna is a must. >Location? probably on the top of cab although I would think all units would >have a cab mounted a/c. Maybe move the whip to just behind the cab. The >reason for cab mounted a/c units is for ease of maintenance/change out. No problems here, as a matter of fact, you'll see two other emails calling for A/C in the cab. On the Motorola (whip type) antenna's, I've seen both Sinclair (DA 229-101803 or DW235-214 on stand) and Motorola (DW235-157) used currently on eastern locomotives, but the Sinclair's seem to populate lots of CR and CSX engines, and NS uses both. My thought's on this would lead me to believe that the Sinclairs were used on the CR/CSX/EL/LV/RDG for a reason, perhaps they transmit/recieve better in parts of PA and NY. Does anyone know anything about this? My vote would be for the Motorola on earlier locomotives (which was true, I have photographs of PRR SD9's with this antenna) and Sinclair on the post, say, 1972 locomotives. Of course, both types will have to be mounted on a stand (DW235-222 or 235-223) due to the advent of A/C on the cabs roofs. >Definitely need lift rings of some type on the wide cab models. Yes, I use these on ALL of my locomotives, as well as grab irons. They'll be included as "standard to all models" on the parts lists. >All switchers should have front end mounted bells similar to the >Baldwins of the late 60's. Hmmmm. On this I'd have to say that would be a "special order item". Like Jeremy, I'm a truck/car nut. A special ordered item usually means more money and a special part (which, consiquently is only in the replacement parts catalog for the duration of it's availability on the order form!). As we have "Standardized" the PRR once again, going with EMD (almost exclusively), I'd have to say management would "nix" this. Other's opinions? >Prr had just about standardized on a 3 chime Leslie for their horns, >usually mounted above the lights in the center of cab. To the best of my knowledge, these were only ordered on the SD45's. Does anyone know why? Was it in the plans to go Leslie and away from (my favorite) the Nathan? We can certainly go with Leslie though. >When one looks at >old pictures of PRR second generation diesels there was not much to give >them a family resemblance. The DGLE paint and the Keystones were the >common characteristic. Not to mention the type of lighting, class lights, ATC box on the "fender", etc. >In the 90's I would imagine the PRR would hire some firm to give them a >more modern look, remember Raymond Lowey? What we need here is a dreamer >like that to come up some locomotive designs that are not out of the box. >GE's "form follows ugly" and EMD's lack of benefit from their auto design >division have produced some very uninspired designs. A diesel built on a >rigid frame could be given a very beautiful and distinctive body. Even a >modern SD or AC by GE could stand some industrial designers touch. It will >never happen in real life so why not do it in model form. The PRR does not >exist anymore, these fictious models do not exist either. On a model >layout both could come to life again... > This is a lot more than you asked for, I just couldn't help it... > Unfortunatly, a modern railroad is pretty much at the mercy of what the major builders churn out as far as looks go. I would agree that calling up EMD and saying, "hey, we'd like something nice looking to power the double stacks." But I have a feeling EMD would return with, "Sure, you place an open-ended order for, say, 2,000 locomotives and we'll retool and produce them for you." At current EMD is having enough trouble filling orders, and GE is doing ok, but could be doing better in the delivery dept. I think both wouldn't be agreeable to this. But as I keep saying, "Any other opinions on this?" As for paint, I'll have to look up Jeremy and my earlier discussions, but I believe we decided on DGLE, with spelled out Pennsylvania on the long hood and keystones on the nose and tail for 70's and 80's spartan cab units, and DGLE with five stripe for the wide cab units. Switchers get DGLE with keystones and numbers. (Am I right Jeremy?) PS. I think as far as paint color goes, we'll all agree on DGLE. I refer alot to 1:1 railroads for what a real railroad does in modern times. I think the gentleman on Trains Unlimited said it best last week "UP is the ONLY railroad not to change it's name or paint scheme EVER!" Well, UP has changed their lettering/stripe combinations, but they've always been yellow/grey/red. I'd like to think the PRR would have been simular. Always Brunswick! Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:18:33 EST Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 1546 In a message dated 98-02-08 21:04:51 EST, you write: << I was thinking we should include Electrics like the E60F in our history at least. Does anyone know what year Conrail de-electrified? Can anyone point out a feasabe reason why the Modern PRR would keep part of the system electrified? Up to what date? Motive power? >> As a former denizen of the Main Line (station stop Radnor) I have little doubt that a healthy modern PRR would have capitalized on the environmental and sound economic benefits of electrified rail... At least for passenger service if not for freight. As to the E60F and neo boxcabs such as the swedish meatballs... I think that the PRR would have long ago come up with a better successor to the GG-1 legacy. I'm sure the modern PRR would have replaced the GG-1 with a much needed and technolgically advanced locomotive earlier than the 80's despite their flirtations with the unsuccessful MU Metroliners. Perhaps a healthy PRR would have even been an early advocate for retail/wholesale wheeling and electricity deregulation leading to lower rates for business and consumers alike... who knows maybe there would have been an expansion of electrified rail lines due to the PRR's successful lobbying efforts!! Just a few thoughts from an old GG-1 fan. J.P. Alexandria, VA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: What If Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:34:31 PST Content-Length: 3351 >Be glad to assist on the history. Haven't had a chance to call Allen. >Will try to remember to give him a shout tomorrow. I'm looking for >sheet, coil and bar/rod steel. The fabrication plant will turn the above >milled items into finished structural products. In "real time", they'd >come directly to me along my network in staging to be delivered on my >barge. When I get going, I can e-mail you "product orders" for the steel >mills to fill. > >With finances not looking very good for the next year, the idea of the >16x24 layout building in the backyard has been nixed. Back to the >drawing board literally! I decided to bite the bullet and went with a >helix to move trains between 3 levels. The barge arrives on the lower >level where there also 4 local industries. The barge train takes the >cars up to the 2nd level to the classification yard and engine/car >servicing facilities. A local then takes the cars to be spotted at "on >layout" industries on the third level where it does its work and brings >empties and loads back down to the yard to be classified. All other cars >go to a 6-track staging yard built over the top of the helix or to a 3 >track staging yard built as another 1-1/4 turn at the bottom of the >helix. This design flew together quite quickly once I made the decision >to not cram the yard and industries together on one level. I also was >able to retain all the planned for trains except the gravel train. Oh >well, it should still keep 3 guys at a time pretty busy! > >I also am working on two articles. One is for the OPS-SIG newsletter and >looks at railbarge operations. The other was a challenge from Tony >Koester to put together an article on how to do a mock-up of a layout >design using foam-core and your track plan. With luck, it'll make it >into MRP as a side-bar with a couple of photos. Hope I haven't put you >to sleep yet! Later! Sounds great. Let me know when you'd like the first loads to ship. (I'll have to model some removable loads and get some gondolas modeled!) Do you have all the emails from the discussion on the history? If not let me know and I'll get them up to you. I can now update my website anytime I want, so as you get stuff done, I can post it. Even though I've told the PRR group about it, I think I''d like to keep the history and maybe even the diesel roster under Jeremy, your and my controll. Too many chief's and not enought indians on the history portion could spell disaster! I'm happy to hear about your articles! Your a good writer and it would be nice to see something of yours published. By the way, when you're rich and famous, don't forget the FM&C! (HA) Thanks so much for the PRR system pass. How did you ever find that! It's even for a guy who worked for BLW! Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:11:06 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 828 > As to the E60F and neo boxcabs such as the swedish meatballs... I think that > the PRR would have long ago come up with a better successor to the GG-1 > legacy. I'm sure the modern PRR would have replaced the GG-1 with a much > needed and technolgically advanced locomotive earlier than the 80's despite > their flirtations with the unsuccessful MU Metroliners. They were (likely, of course, since we can only speculate) unsuccessful since the government pushed for results too fast, with not nearly as much testing as the Pennsy had done for *any* other project since the early electrics. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:59:43 EST Subject: Looking for JJ Content-Length: 831 Okay guys, I have been trying to locate JJ Young Jr. Bob Hundman was not sure but thought he was teaching in New England . I would like to get in touch with him as most of you who know me know that I model the area where he haunted for years. I also grew up not far from there only more up river above Yellow Creek. His picture are stunning and I have seen many of his P&WV prints too. I would love to here he is doing a book and have it be true. Anyone know how i could get in contact with him. For us "Line West" guys he capture the Panhandle in all of it's drama. Please let me know. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:13:27 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 3009 Keven states: >I was thinking we should include Electrics like the E60F in our history >at least. Does anyone know what year Conrail de-electrified? Can >anyone point out a feasabe reason why the Modern PRR would keep part of >the system electrified? Up to what date? Motive power? ===== There was an article in Trains many years ago about why the New Haven re-electrified. The upshot was that they couldn't afford new diesels, and got a deal on some ex-N&W motors. So since the wire was still up,they figured to get their moneys worth out of them. It is kind of hard to say about PRR, since there really haven't been any new generation electrics produced. The 10 ex-N&Ws would not have made a dent in the NE corridor. The only realistic scenario that comes to mind is that the Pennsy, unable to afford new power and needing something for the Altoona shop forces to do, might have decided to continue with electric construction on their own. Herewith are a few possible quick fixes for a strapped PRR: * rebuild the GG-1s to get more life out of them. As is, they lasted into the 80s. * buy up surplus diesel power (F3s?) strip the 567 out and put transformers in. (rebuild the 567s and sell them to raise cash) * keep an alert eye on the UP and SP rrs for when they retired their DD-40s and U 50s, as these would have made some good heavy power. * as things improved, continue buying 2 axle power, only strip them down and use the trucks to build home brewed B-B-B-B motors. This would likely not be a streamliner like the GG-1s (that sheet metal work is expensive). Nor would they likely be box cabs because of the safety issue. The most likely look would be like the Baldwin center cabs with transformers in each hood. If you allow they would get F7s by then, you are talking a 3000 HP unit with 4 trucks: not a GG-1, certainly, but not at all bad. On the other hand, they would likely be getting a lot of worn out Alcos and Baldwins by then, and the heavy duty motors would be just what an electric needed. The important thing to remember, too, is that the PC fiasco was what got Washington off their dead asses and started lifting some of the restrictions that had ruined the railroads in the first place. So over a period of time (during which the PRR or PC would probably have operated in bankruptcy) the economic climate would have improved, and their fortunes with it. Any thoughts on this scenario, or on the possible electrics? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Freight Car Roster & Paint Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 16:52:58 PST Content-Length: 922 Jeremy and I have decided to start working on the Freight Car Roster. I'd like ideas on paint schemes and types of cars. Please try to keep in mind that cars that can be purchased from a model manufacturer are best, as well as decal sheets that can be combined to letter the car. Use of the circle Keystone has been recommended. I'd like to get a vote on which Keystone to use. Also, white lettering? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Freight Car Roster & Paint Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 08:16:27 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1198 On 2/8/98 8:52 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: >Jeremy and I have decided to start working on the Freight Car Roster. >I'd like ideas on paint schemes and types of cars. > >Please try to keep in mind that cars that can be purchased from a model >manufacturer are best, as well as decal sheets that can be combined to >letter the car. > >Use of the circle Keystone has been recommended. I'd like to get a vote >on which Keystone to use. If I recall, your project is the "What if the PRR had survived" stuff. That being the case, please make a note of that in your posts. Your indication of creation of a Freight Car Roster is confusing, given Rob's excellent (actual) Freight Car Roster already online. Similar projects would be equally confusing. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Crosspost permission request Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 8:54:13 EST Content-Length: 304 Anyone in the Rule 556 debate/discussion mind if I cross-post to another list? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:22:50 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: Video Yesteryear Content-Length: 955 Hal- Yes, I've heard of some of these titles, and several of them are available elsewhere. Jim On Sun, 8 Feb 1998 Hal6963@aol.com wrote: > An advertisement in the Sunday paper by the above firm listed their Volume 3 > as "Films of the Pennsy" - and includes "Progress On The Rails" - "Wheels Of > Steel" - "Opening A New Frontier" - "Clear Track Ahead." The advertisement > claims these are long-lost company films. Has anyone ever heard of these > titles? > > Harold McGee > Gainesville, FL > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:21:21 EST Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 1059 In a message dated 98-02-08 21:04:59 EST, t1duplex@hotmail.com writes: << I was thinking we should include Electrics like the E60F in our history at least. Does anyone know what year Conrail de-electrified? Can anyone point out a feasabe reason why the Modern PRR would keep part of the system electrified? Up to what date? Motive power? >> If the PRR kept the NE corridor, it would surely have been maintained as electrified territory. Also, one must consider the possibility of expanded electrified territory. On more than one occassion the PRR considered electrifying the line all the way to Pittsburgh. Would the oil embargo and subsequent diesel price increases been the final push? If the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions were electrified what power would be used? May need to develop fictious power. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Survives: Freight Car Roster & Paint Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:09:25 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1263 On 8 Feb, "Kevin Tully" wrote: > Use of the circle Keystone has been recommended. I'd like to get a vote > on which Keystone to use. Why? PRR went from circle to shadowed keystone in 1954; is this conversion after your proposed divergence point and thus made to not happen? > Also, white lettering? Why not? Remember that the big reasons for the oxide paint color are economic; the pre-1952 stabilized rust (think about it) was very cheap. I can only assume that the move to synthetics was also motivated by economics, in some combination of purchase, application, and maintenance. Esthetic appeal *may* have been a factor, but I haven't seen anything in print that suggests it. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about modern paint technology to know whether a particular color is cheaper these days. When I was working in a paint store, white was the cheapest house paint, but that was at least two chemistry generations ago. What's the cheapest color in Imron these days? Has Imron been supplanted yet? Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:34:40 EST Subject: Re: Modern PRR Locomotives Content-Length: 1160 In a message dated 98-02-08 22:07:41 EST, t1duplex@hotmail.com writes: << Also, ConRails non-pursuit of a replacement (or should I say, realistically looked) would tell me that perhaps from a railroads standpoint it just wasn't worth it. >> Kevin, this is one point one which we disagree. Conrail was totally broke when the GG1's came to the end of their life. CR was relying upon Congress to bail them out year after year. There was no money for developing new electric locomotives so they had no choice but to buy what the suppliers were peddeling -- diesels. If the PRR continued and we assume it remained or was financially secure, we must look to the corporate history of self reliance and internal engineering of new power to determine the course the PRR would follow. Based upon the history of the PRR, it is more likely they would have developed independently or jointly with a supplier new electrics. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Signals ofr N-scale (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 11:40:14 EST Content-Length: 6258 > Hello, > I want to put some lighted signals on my train layout. What were the 8 > signal lights used for? Where do you put the lights in relationship to > the switches? What kind of signals were used in classification yards? > I've a small 4-lead classification yard and was thinking either dwarf > signals or switch stands (no lights but metal flags or whatever). Ooof, what loaded questions! Roger, there's way more to tell than can be done in a single email. I suggest you start with Armstrong's "All About Signals", if you can find a copy. Then review a PRR rule book or my signalling web pages. _Extremely brief_ answers and _gross generalizations_ follow: > What were the 8 signal lights used for? Most signals on the prototype were 'automatic' signals and had 7 lights on the upper arm (head) and a lower marker lamp. But signals on PRR had as many as 14 lamps. There is _much_ more to tell (and learn) before this can be easily understood, but the most _basic_ idea is this: Everyone needs some warning before getting a signal to stop. Fof your car, that warning is the yellow light before the red. But. Your car is light. It does not take much time (and therefore not much distance) to stop. The yellow can be provided on the same physical signal as the red. Trains are heavy. They may require 1/2 to 1+1/2 mile to stop. Thus, they require the warning well before the point where they have to stop. Thus, they will continue getting green signals while the way is clear, then ultimately get a yellow. The yellow, to a train, means that the _next_ signal, a mile or two away, will be red. Each section of track between signals is one 'block'. Except in rare instances, only one train is permitted in each block. This is how signals provide control. It's as if you were driving along 42nd Street in New York City, but rather than being its usual mishmash of cars, you were the only (or nearly only) car on the street. You start at 1st Avenue and travel west. You get green signals at each intersection: 2nd Ave, 3rd Ave, 4th Ave, 5th Ave. Thus, you're travelling at the maximum allowed speed. Finally, at 6th Avenue, you get a yellow. That yellow _does not_ momentarily change to a red, but rather, tells you that the light at _7th Avenue_ is red (for whatever reason), and that you had better slow down and be ready to stop in time. The light at 8th Ave. may be red because there's a car between 8th and 9th Avenues (remember: only one car per block), or possibly because the signal at 8th Ave is not automatic, but human-controlled, and some human (the dispatcher, on the RR) wants to hold you there for a reason. How's that? Now for PRR, substitute rows of 3 lights, | for green, / for yellow, -- for red. Historically these harken back to the positions of semaphore blades. > Where do you put the lights in relationship to the switches? You're now speaking of an "interlocking" or a "controlled point" or whatever the favorite terminology of your favorite railroad is. Outside. I'll leave it at that for now. Let me just make 2 quick comments, regarding model RRs in particular: Model RR compression being what it is, the 'long boring' stretches of nothing tend to be compressed much more than terminals. Well, these long boring stretches of nothing are where the automatic signals usually live. So model RRs have an inordinately large number of controlled (interlocking) signals. Second, most model RR plans out there plan for no signals. Their control method consists of the dispatcher yelling "Hey, Bill, stop your train before you get to that big bend over there" -- or worse, the train jerking to a stop as the head locomotive hits an unpowered block. Since models don't have to worry about physical plant expense, switches are literally _everywhere_. What you find on the _prototype_, in contrast, is that switches (controlled points) are _concentrated_ together. A lot of control circuitry has to be built, and it would be very expensive to stretch this stuff over _miles_. So in general, most model RRs are very difficult to signal, since nearly all signals end up being controlled signals, and in many instances, the model is simply not designed to accept a sensical placement of signals. > What kind of signals were used in classification yards? Very little. Most RRs had some provision for a hump signal (for hump yards) that often had 3 or 4 aspects: stop, back up, hump fast, hump slow. (Probably most RRs had only 3). Many RRs intentionally used a different form of signal for their hump signal than they did for their mainline signals -- obviously to avoid confusion. E.g., the PRR used position-light signals on the mainline (rows of 3 yellow lights), but in Enola Yard the hump signal is a 3-lamp color-light signal (red/yellow/green, I assume, has anyone ever seen it directly?). The Western Maryland used color-light signals on its mainline, but it used a PRR-style position-light signal at its yard in Hagerstown. But. The B&O, which used color-position light signals on its mainline used the same type of signal for its hump signal in Cumberland, Md. (though mounted quite high). > I've a small 4-lead classification yard and was thinking either dwarf > signals or switch stands (no lights but metal flags or whatever). Very few 4-track yards on the prototype would warrant dwarf signals. Only if this was a yard for high-speed freight would it probably be signalled. E.g., a 4-track coal yard for the Pennsylvania Power & Light plant would certainly not be signalled. However, a 4-track yard where hotshot trains set off one block and pick up another, refuel, recrew, and leave within half an hour or so to continue their cross-country trek would be reasonable candidates for signals [though not under Conrail, as the recent effort at Collinwood Yard demonstrates - Ed.]. Enough for now? -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:12:49 EST Content-Length: 787 > The first ETT I grabbed is a Phila Terminal dated 11/14/43. It > shows the Grays Ferry branch as running from Zoo (MP 0.0) > to Arsenal (MP 2.4). This was confirmed by a 4/29/56 and > a 4/30/67. I guess the point where the line comes from > Powelton into the Suburban Line is considered part of > Arsenal interlocking, although it's at least half a mile north of > the tower. What interests me is that none of the branch > goes to the part of Philly known as Grays Ferry! Remind this former Philadelphian -- where is that neighborhood, exactly? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Cab Videos Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:21:20 EST Content-Length: 419 Guys, has anyone seen the "shot in the loco cab" videos sold/advertized in _Trains_. E.g., they have Philly--harrisburg, Har--Altoona, Altoona--Pgh, and so forth. Any good? Or just boring? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Tidbits (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:28:52 EST Content-Length: 697 Jerry writes: > The "Triumph" series was originally thought to be seven volumes, with one > or two Pennsy. Not so. The following is the slated plan, for ALL Pennsy > books: > Volume II Philadelphia Division > Volume III Middle Division > Volume IV New Yro Division > Volume V Maryland Division --- that's me! > Volume VI Pittsburgh Division This perpetuating the same view of the PRR perpetrated by books such as "PRR-Hudson to Horseshoe" ... Sigh. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:26:58 EST Content-Length: 1545 > I also found this rule in the Dec. 1968 PC ETT for the Eastern Region > from page No.206 also > > 1154-A16 (Chesapeake Division). Southward pasenger trains > will make running test of brakes as defined in Instruction 16 of the > 99-D-1 Brake and Train Air Signal Intructions,immediately after > passing Lanham. > > Hmmmmm i wonder if this has anything to do with 4876's 1950's > wreck at Union station. > Lanham Md. is south of Baltimore just out side Washington,D.C. > Hmmmmm if the brakes failed maybe the idea was to radio to have the > train switched to the freight track at Landover or to the Lower > level at Washington Union station. > Anyone know? Sure sounds reasonable. Only way to know is to see when the rule came into being (by checking past ETTs -- very good chances are that the rule number would have stayed exactly the same save possibly for the letter A throughout this time period). Often such rules are instituted quite soon after an accident. Lanham is far enough out that the train might quite possibly coast to a stop, or very nearly so. I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently) turn the power to reverse? Is this doable? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 13:19:21 EST From: Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 1484 Trying to imagine what Horseshoe Curve would look like with catenary overhead. Seems to me it would loose some of its asthetic beauty. ------------- Original Text From: SUVCWORR@aol.com, on 2/9/98 12:21 PM: In a message dated 98-02-08 21:04:59 EST, t1duplex@hotmail.com writes: << I was thinking we should include Electrics like the E60F in our history at least. Does anyone know what year Conrail de-electrified? Can anyone point out a feasabe reason why the Modern PRR would keep part of the system electrified? Up to what date? Motive power? >> If the PRR kept the NE corridor, it would surely have been maintained as electrified territory. Also, one must consider the possibility of expanded electrified territory. On more than one occassion the PRR considered electrifying the line all the way to Pittsburgh. Would the oil embargo and subsequent diesel price increases been the final push? If the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions were electrified what power would be used? May need to develop fictious power. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Penn Station III ??? Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:53:34 EST Content-Length: 315 Check out http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-penn-station.html Do it! -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:02:19 PST Content-Length: 988 Wow, I got some interesting responses about the electrics. I'm working with Joe Zappa of Liberty, and we can realistically produce a "what if" locomotive. I like the idea about using used two axle trucks in a B+B-B+B applicaton. We'd have to come up with a frame, span bolster and shell. Who would PRR have worked with, GE or EMD? this will give the style of cab and so forth. I'd vote for EMD, as Cannon & Co. makes many parts that could be used to produce a master. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:08:29 EST Content-Length: 598 Me: > > Remind this former Philadelphian -- where is that neighborhood, > > exactly? John Cooper: > About a mile west of Arsenal freight bridge on southern river bank. > Northwest of Penrose I think. Hang on. A mile west of Arsenal freight bridge would put the Grays Ferry neighborhood well west of the Schuylkill, into the piedmont -- yet it's named for a ferry? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:37:08 +0000 From: J Bruce Andrews Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 1449 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-08 21:04:59 EST, t1duplex@hotmail.com writes: > > << I was thinking we should include Electrics like the E60F in our history > at least. Does anyone know what year Conrail de-electrified? Can > anyone point out a feasabe reason why the Modern PRR would keep part of > the system electrified? Up to what date? Motive power? > >> According to the The Railroad Museum Collection No.12 - PRR Class E44 No.4465 Electric Freight Locomotive published by Friends of The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, on 11 February 1980 Conrail management removed all through freight operations from Amtrak trackage in a response to an increas in surcharge for electric power. As a result, electric freight operations efectively ceasesd since almost all of the old PRR electrified territory had been given to Amtrak. It is noted in the same article that as late as 1978-79, Conrail had rebuilt and repainted the entire E44 fleet in anticipation of continued use. Given the PRR's involvement with experimental electrics during the 1950's and its purchase of 66 E44 units to replace aging P5A units, it seems to me that a replacement for the GG1 would have happened if... ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Judge David Carey Subject: RE: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:14:15 -0700 Content-Length: 768 > ---------- > From: Mark D Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Monday, February 09, 1998 8:26 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) > Mark Bej asked: > I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not > a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently) > turn the power to reverse? Is this doable? > "[Engineer Harry W. Brower] attempted to reverse the motors, but the overload relays blew and his last hope was gone." Trains and Travel, August 1953, at 21. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:05:43 EST Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) Content-Length: 866 In a message dated 98-02-09 15:19:15 EST, Mark writes: << This perpetuating the same view of the PRR perpetrated by books such as "PRR-Hudson to Horseshoe" ... >> Had a similar reaction. At least we can hope Vol. II of "the Pennsylvania RR and Dieslelization" by Eric Hirsimaki is as balanced as Vol. 1. . Vol. I, Black Gold-Black Diamonds, had the most Lines West content I have seen in recent years, except for Mark I Videos Memories of Pennsy Steam with the great T1 shots out of St. Louis. I guess noone is interested in doubleheaded Q2's, the SouthWind or the operating fun of the Southland and Grand Rapids locals. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 09 Feb 98 16:14:22 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Content-Length: 1434 --====57534848515556545557===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Mark D Bej wrote: > >I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not >a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently) >turn the power to reverse? Is this doable? Or what about regenerative braking (essentially, turning the motors into generators and putting the current back into the wire). Were the GG1's capable of this? --====57534848515556545557===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark D Bej wrote:
>
>I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not
>a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently)
>turn the power to reverse? Is this doable?

Or what about regenerative braking (essentially, turning the motors into generators and putting the current back into the wire).
Were the GG1's capable of this? --====57534848515556545557===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:23:09 EST Subject: Re: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Content-Length: 708 In a message dated 98-02-09 15:42:13 EST, Mark writes: << I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently) turn the power to reverse? Is this doable? >> Naturally I am not able to put my hands on the Trains magazine article on the runaway, but I seem to recall he either tried to reverse it or throw it into the generator mode (if that was possible) and blew circuit breakers. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 09 Feb 98 16:28:06 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) Content-Length: 3183 I don't know how far we want to take this thread, as the PRR post-1968 could be what anyone wants it to be. If you're doing any 'realistic' blue-skying in your game, what are your assumptions? -- Did Amtrak come into being? When? What about the regional transit authorities, such as SEPTA and NJT, that were engendered by the collapse of the private companies' ability to provide adequate service? If so, how much of PRR's passenger traffic have they assumed? What has happened to the Northeast corridor, or for that matter, the rest of the electrified zone mains? These were PRR's (and PC's) freight mainlines as well as passenger routes, with some exceptions. -- The Pennsy didn't exist in a vacuum -- what happened to competitors, such as NYC -- Since merger with PRR was no longer in the picture, would NYC merge with/be taken over by C&O/B&O as Perlman wished, or in desperation did it take control of the RDG and CNJ, to strike into the heart of PRR territory? -- What about N&W/NKP/Wabash -- PRR sold the Sandusky branch to make this merger happen in 1964, more or less as a condition of approval of Penn Central. PRR foresook the control of N&W and the dividends that arguably had kept it afloat in the last years, in order to make PC happen. -- What about the weakling competitors, such as CNJ, RDG, E-L, LV? Would they have gone belly up, or merged into some kind of stronger MARC (Middle Atlantic Rail Corporation). Would they have become a government-supported Conrail, instead? -- What effect would the above combinations have had on PRR's business, especially given the physical condition of the railroad in 1968 (and one assumes, beyond)? -- What about the regulatory climate? The Staggers act didn't take effect until 1980. Conrail was swirling the drain until that act took effect, and gave it back control of its own destiny. How would the PRR have coped for 12 years until 1980? A major part of PRR's problems were due to too many branches, full-crew laws, patronless passenger trains and no rate relief. I believe PRR suffered from the greatest percentage of passenger-train miles of any of the major railroads in 1968. It also seems like many parts of the road had an extreme case of deferred maintenance by the mid-60's. Shots I've seen of PRR in its last independent days make the railroad appear pretty ratty. Where did the money come from for the new paint schemes and the other stuff people are talking about, if they couldn't maintain their track and equipment? The 'simplified' 'keystone and reporting marks only' scheme seems to have been an attempt to be as economical as possible in car and locomotive 'decoration' (something the big boys of today seem to be doing, at least on freight cars). Things to consider when dreaming up a railroad that never was, before worrying about more minor issues such as whether the keystone should be in a circle or with a shadow. Let the flames begin... ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Judge David Carey Subject: RE: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:31 -0700 Content-Length: 636 Mark Bej asked about the Washington Union Station wreck in 1953: I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently) turn the power to reverse? According to TRAINS AND TRAVEL, August 1953, at p. 21: "[Engineer Harry W. Brower] attempted to reverse his motors, but the overload relays blew and his last hope was gone." ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:49:25 EST Content-Length: 740 > >I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not > >a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently) > >turn the power to reverse? Is this doable? > > Or what about regenerative braking (essentially, turning the motors into > generators and putting the current back into the wire). > Were the GG1's capable of this? My (possibly inexact) recollection was that they were indeed capable, but that it was not exercised due to load and/or frequency sync issues. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:58:15 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Content-Length: 1139 Mark D Bej wrote: > > I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not > a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently) > turn the power to reverse? Is this doable? > Mark, An account of the accident in Time Magazine, which I think I still have, indicated that the engineman had done just that, and that the drivers were spinning in reverse. There really is no such thing as "gently" in this situation, although the practice is mentioned as a last resort in diesel-electric operating manuals. It is definitely not the same as dynamic braking. Once they were spinning in reverse, they would have had very little retarding effect on the train. Once, with the throttle in Idle, and a light engine (GP-7) moving about 1 or 2 mph, I put the reverser in the opposite direction. I did not get a gentle reaction, but a very heavy reverse action. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 09 Feb 98 17:04:32 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Penn Station III ??? Content-Length: 2434 --====53535156525352545455===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" The present Penn Station is a far cry better than it was in the bad old days when it was a haven for the homeless, but the revitalized New York City needs a better 'gateway' than what is now under Madison Square Garden. I've never been in it, but using a portion of the Post Office building sounds like the solution. Mark D Bej wrote: > >Check out >http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-penn-station.html > >Do it! > >-- >Mark > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====53535156525352545455===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The present Penn Station is a far cry better than it was in the bad old days when it was a haven for the homeless, but the revitalized New York City needs a better 'gateway' than what is now under Madison Square Garden. I've never been in it, but using a portion of the Post Office building sounds like the solution.

Mark D Bej wrote:
>
>Check out
>http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-penn-station.html
>
>Do it!
>
>--
>Mark
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====53535156525352545455===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 09 Feb 98 17:09:26 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 659 kkollar wrote: >Trying to imagine what Horseshoe Curve would look like with catenary >overhead. Seems to me it would loose some of its asthetic beauty. I think if catenary was pushed that far west, it should have been accompanied by a tunnel or tunnels under the Alleghany, eliminating most of the alignment that goes over the mountain, including The Curve. Sacrilege, I know, but it would make sense. Wire and tunnels go together. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:09:32 EST Content-Length: 770 > > I wonder... I know the GG1 engineer had the brakes on full (was it not > > a closed angle cock that was the problem). But did he try to (gently) > > turn the power to reverse? Is this doable? > > > "[Engineer Harry W. Brower] attempted to reverse the motors, but the > overload relays blew and his last hope was gone." Trains and Travel, > August 1953, at 21. Thank you for the reference. Good to have cold, hard facts on occasion. (I note with interest your attachment to legal quoting style, and raise you an "at".) :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Penn Station III ??? (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:42:37 EST Content-Length: 595 > Us who are able to think for ourselves do not need the NY times to think > for us!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, I'll shut up immediately. But first, and BTW, I only suggested looking at > >Check out > >http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/ny-penn-station.html to glean the information therefrom, not to have U opinion given to U. -- Mark bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:47:56 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Content-Length: 1768 >Remind this former Philadelphian -- where is that neighborhood, >exactly? Mark, Grey's Ferry is the neighborhood just South of University City, on the SOUTHEAST side of the SureKill River, where the river takes a bend to the west for a 1/2 mile or so. The neighborhood is bordered to the WEST by the continuation of the SureKill Expressway, to the SOUTH by Tasker Homes (an infamous housing project) and some refineries. I was always under the impression that the Grey's Ferry Branch included the swing bridge on which the PRR crossed from the West to East sides of the river (and over another RR) on its way to South Philly. The track was all on an elevated concrete ROW after the bridge. HAppy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:01:56 EST Subject: Re: Video Yesteryear Content-Length: 351 Thanks to all who responded, their price was $19.95 for all of the Pennsy Promo films on one tape so I think I will purchase one. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:04:48 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Content-Length: 1496 >Wow, I got some interesting responses about the electrics. I'm working >with Joe Zappa of Liberty, and we can realistically produce a "what if" >locomotive. GEEEEEEEEZ GUYS! If you're going to go to all of the effort, how about a REAL PRR electric first? I keep asking for a resin P5! You get 4 locos for one - the two prototype P5's the P5a boxcabs and modifieds and the P5b - with mods to the superstructure. Happy Juice Jockeying! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:19:54 -0800 Content-Length: 1511 Here's a map: http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?screen=ia_find&link=ia_find&uid=n06a dn0200cxkzs I was close, but a bit off. The Schuylkill takes jog, and is running E/W right at arsenal. The freight bridge to greenwich yard actuall leaves Arsenal running SE, before turning due south. Gray's Ferry is due south of Arsenal on the other side of the river. Looks like it might be the neighborhood from Penrose halfway to Green on the west side of the tracks, > ---------- > From: Mark D Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Monday, February 09, 1998 12:08 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) > > Me: > > > Remind this former Philadelphian -- where is that neighborhood, > > > exactly? > > John Cooper: > > About a mile west of Arsenal freight bridge on southern river bank. > > Northwest of Penrose I think. > > Hang on. > A mile west of Arsenal freight bridge would put the Grays Ferry > neighborhood > well west of the Schuylkill, into the piedmont -- yet it's named for a > ferry? > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:52:46 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: GG-1 sounds Content-Length: 476 Hello.... Would the gentleman from Boiling Spring N.C. please contact me again as for some reason i can't send you e-mail using the address you gave. Sincerly Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 19:57:30 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Content-Length: 651 Mark D Bej wrote: > > A mile west of Arsenal freight bridge would put the Grays Ferry neighborhood > well west of the Schuylkill, into the piedmont -- yet it's named for a ferry? > Sure, a river-crossing ferry. In the 1600's and 1700's they were just rowboats. Going to the Other Railroad for a moment, Cornelius Vanderbilt started in business by rowing people across the Hudson River. Not my idea of a fun job. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Knowledge Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:59:40 PST Content-Length: 611 Just for my own want to know, how many of the "What If" interested folks model/follow modern (1998) railroading? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:11:46 EST Subject: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 1555 I recently received the topo maps of the area and it certainly presents some interesting modeling opportunities. The tunnels are double track twin bores and they are not parallel to each other. I have a 1908 post card that shows what I believe to be the west portals at about 60 feet apart with a single masonry portal approximately 120 to 150 feet long. The east portals are split, offset, and are approximately 150 feet apart. The north bore is approximately 1000 feet long and the south bore 1100 feet. The community of Spruce Creek is about 3/4 of a mile west of the Tunnels. There are 5 bridges crossing the Little Juniata within 2.6 miles of the west portals. On the east side the north set of tracks immediately cross over to the north side of the Little Juniata and recross again about in about 500 feet bringing a total of 7 bridges and the 2 tunnels within a distance of approximately 3 to 4 miles. The east side is in a 350 foot narrow deep gorge which made necessary the splitting and crossing of the river. The west side, while not as deep is still below the general topography of the area. Judicious compression should produce an interesting model scene in approximately 8 to 10 lineral feet. Does anyone know of a source for pictures of the Spruce Creek Station, east portals and the bridges? Harold McGee ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:36:54 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Signals ofr N-scale (fwd) Content-Length: 405 Hello Mark, Thanks for the input on the signals. I think I have enough to know where to put my signals. I'm not going to put a lot on, just enough to create some realism. Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Modern PRR Forum Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:26:39 PST Content-Length: 679 Thought you all might like to know, I now have a forum area on my homepage that deals directly with the Modern PRR Project. It's listed under the Modern PRR Project section. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: Re: Modern PRR Locomotives Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:20:33 PST Content-Length: 10910 >From trainnut@internetmci.com Mon Feb 9 15:08:54 1998 >Received: from jeremy-helms (usr31-dialup21.mix1.WillowSprings.mci.net) > by PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27033) > with ESMTP id <0EO400G9TWH7QN@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for t1duplex@hotmail.com; > Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:12:58 +0000 (GMT) >Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 17:00:07 +0000 >From: trainnut >Subject: Re: Modern PRR Locomotives >To: hosam@gc.net, Kevin Tully >Cc: Jeff >Reply-to: trainnut@internetMCI.com >Message-id: <0EO400GA0WHGQN@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> >MIME-version: 1.0 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 >Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Priority: 3 > > > >---------- >> From: Kevin Tully >> To: hosam@gc.net >> Cc: trainnut@internetmci.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: Re: Modern PRR Locomotives >> Date: Monday, February 09, 1998 12:09 AM >> >> > I will admit to being a CLN (certified loco nut). Before I get into >> the >> >matter of details, I would like to comment on the locomotive roster on >> your >> >web site. Although I am not particularly a fan of electrics, I would >> >suspect the modern PRR would have a good many electrics on their >> roster. >> >In fact due to the rise in cost of diesel fuel, atmospheric pollution, >> and >> >an estimated rise in commuter trains, it seems inevitable the PRR would >> >pursue this path. Please give this some thought and if you agree maybe >> >some new electrics could be added to the roster. Maybe some >> experimentals, >> >the like of which we will never see, due to the PRR getting out of the >> >passenger business. The GG-1's were on their last legs in the 80's and >> a >> >suitable replacement was not pursued. Prr would definitely have found >> or >> >maybe built their own replacement to this great railroad machine. Well >> I'm >> >sure you get the idea. >> >> >> I'm going to try to tackle this one, but I'd like others opinions also. >> Although it may be a good idea, I don't think the MPRR would go this >> route. Although we aren't trying to emulate ConRail or NS/CSX, I >> believe that we should look at their modern practices in relation to >> what we are doing here. None of these three large eastern roads are >> looking into this as far as I know. Yes, this would look good to the >> EPA (and not to mention the eastern power companies), and the MPRR could >> generate it's own power, but the technology that goes into providing >> power for pulling freight over long distances may save you money in >> motive power and fuel costs, but would eat up that saved money in >> maintenance. I saw a program on the electrified lines across the >> country, and from what I gathered, most of them were used due to city >> ordenances or fire hazards (pacific northwest). Also, ConRails >> non-pursuit of a replacement (or should I say, realistically looked) >> would tell me that perhaps from a railroads standpoint it just wasn't >> worth it. >> >> As I said before, this is only my opinion. If enough of you want >> electrics on the roster, and the majority of us can agree on it, I'll >> put them in, no problem. (FYI, I love GG1's and Little Joes too!) > >I believe any benefits that might have been seen from electrifying in the >70s because of the petro shortage would have been thwarted by the movement >to Plate D and E cars in the early 80s. The movement of the Autorack and >double stack would have been thoroughly embraced by PRR who looked at >themselves as conservative, but trying to meet customer needs. We believe >that if PRR had still been around that there would have been a early move >to double stack development and that PRR might have owned some of the very >first cars along with Southern Pacific. The double stack movement would >have grown even quicker than it did if there would have been 2 companies >that could have allowed "seemless" service from "sea to shining sea." > >> > Now, details, one item that made the PRR diesels distinctive was the >> >trainphone antennas. These were phased out in the 60's. I'm not sure >> what >> >would be used to replace them in the 90's, but a whip antenna is a >> must. >> >Location? probably on the top of cab although I would think all units >> would >> >have a cab mounted a/c. Maybe move the whip to just behind the cab. >> The >> >reason for cab mounted a/c units is for ease of maintenance/change out. >> >> >> No problems here, as a matter of fact, you'll see two other emails >> calling for A/C in the cab. On the Motorola (whip type) antenna's, I've >> seen both Sinclair (DA 229-101803 or DW235-214 on stand) and Motorola >> (DW235-157) used currently on eastern locomotives, but the Sinclair's >> seem to populate lots of CR and CSX engines, and NS uses both. My >> thought's on this would lead me to believe that the Sinclairs were used >> on the CR/CSX/EL/LV/RDG for a reason, perhaps they transmit/recieve >> better in parts of PA and NY. Does anyone know anything about this? My >> vote would be for the Motorola on earlier locomotives (which was true, I >> have photographs of PRR SD9's with this antenna) and Sinclair on the >> post, say, 1972 locomotives. >> >> Of course, both types will have to be mounted on a stand (DW235-222 or >> 235-223) due to the advent of A/C on the cabs roofs. > >Agree. > >> >Definitely need lift rings of some type on the wide cab models. >> >> Yes, I use these on ALL of my locomotives, as well as grab irons. >> They'll be included as "standard to all models" on the parts lists. > >Agree. > >> >All switchers should have front end mounted bells similar to the >> >Baldwins of the late 60's. >> >> Hmmmm. On this I'd have to say that would be a "special order item". >> Like Jeremy, I'm a truck/car nut. A special ordered item usually means >> more money and a special part (which, consiquently is only in the >> replacement parts catalog for the duration of it's availability on the >> order form!). As we have "Standardized" the PRR once again, going with >> EMD (almost exclusively), I'd have to say management would "nix" this. >> Other's opinions? > >PRR would have gone with what was easy and mainstream to a point. I agree >with no changes on the "Standardized" idea. > >> >Prr had just about standardized on a 3 chime Leslie for their horns, >> >usually mounted above the lights in the center of cab. >> >> To the best of my knowledge, these were only ordered on the SD45's. >> Does anyone know why? Was it in the plans to go Leslie and away from >> (my favorite) the Nathan? We can certainly go with Leslie though. > >They were only on the last order for 65 SD45s from EMD that were delivered >in 1968. It seemsto me that that was the standard horn for NYC and PRR >agrred to this item. I believe the Leslie's are easier to model and obtain >than the Nathan's though. > >> >When one looks at >> >old pictures of PRR second generation diesels there was not much to >> give >> >them a family resemblance. The DGLE paint and the Keystones were the >> >common characteristic. >> >> Not to mention the type of lighting, class lights, ATC box on the >> "fender", etc. > >Do not forget the speed recorder, Sinclair antenna, and the dummy MU >receptacle attached to the right stanchion when facing the front of the >locomotive. > >> >In the 90's I would imagine the PRR would hire some firm to give them a >> >more modern look, remember Raymond Lowey? What we need here is a >> dreamer >> >like that to come up some locomotive designs that are not out of the >> box. >> >GE's "form follows ugly" and EMD's lack of benefit from their auto >> design >> >division have produced some very uninspired designs. A diesel built on >> a >> >rigid frame could be given a very beautiful and distinctive body. Even >> a >> >modern SD or AC by GE could stand some industrial designers touch. It >> will >> >never happen in real life so why not do it in model form. The PRR does >> not >> >exist anymore, these fictious models do not exist either. On a model >> >layout both could come to life again... >> > This is a lot more than you asked for, I just couldn't help it... >> > >> >> Unfortunatly, a modern railroad is pretty much at the mercy of what >> the major builders churn out as far as looks go. I would agree that >> calling up EMD and saying, "hey, we'd like something nice looking to >> power the double stacks." But I have a feeling EMD would return with, >> "Sure, you place an open-ended order for, say, 2,000 locomotives and >> we'll retool and produce them for you." >> At current EMD is having enough trouble filling orders, and GE is >> doing ok, but could be doing better in the delivery dept. I think both >> wouldn't be agreeable to this. But as I keep saying, "Any other >> opinions on this?" > >To expensive a thing to have done. > >> As for paint, I'll have to look up Jeremy and my earlier discussions, >> but I believe we decided on DGLE, with spelled out Pennsylvania on the >> long hood and keystones on the nose and tail for 70's and 80's spartan >> cab units, and DGLE with five stripe for the wide cab units. Switchers >> get DGLE with keystones and numbers. (Am I right Jeremy?) > >We are remembering our heritage (ala Santa Fe Warbonnet) with our return to >the older style DGLE with the 5 stripe motif. Besides I have done it on a >Kato Dash 9 and it looks GREAT!! > >> PS. I think as far as paint color goes, we'll all agree on DGLE. I >> refer alot to 1:1 railroads for what a real railroad does in modern >> times. I think the gentleman on Trains Unlimited said it best last week >> "UP is the ONLY railroad not to change it's name or paint scheme EVER!" >> Well, UP has changed their lettering/stripe combinations, but they've >> always been yellow/grey/red. I'd like to think the PRR would have been >> simular. Always Brunswick! >> >> >> >> Kevin J. Tully >> C.E.O. >> FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. >> "The Allegheny Route" >> A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. >> http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ > > >Jeremy Helms > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/08/98 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:55:45 -0500 Content-Length: 24355 Re Penn Line T1 The Penn Line T1 I built has been running very well since 1957. I couldn't use the original boxpock drivers because of excessive run-out. Unfortunately, I could not replace them and had to use spoked drivers. Penn Line overcame the "slippery" problem usually attributed to T1's by connecting the two rotor shafts (they are mounted opposed) using a flexible coupling. Used without the coupling, you can get the engines to slip like the real ones did. If there is one for sale, buy it! Carl P. Izzo ---------- > From: PRR-Talk > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/08/98 > Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 12:10 AM > > PRR-Talk Digest - Sunday, February 8, 1998 > > PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 > by > Re: PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 > by > Modern PRR Locomotives > by Kevin Tully > Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) > by Ron Dugas > Re: Overgrown Chevys) > by Robert A. Boyd > Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel > by Michael E. Allen > Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) > by Sharon Edwards > Re: Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel > by Michael E. Allen > Re: Keystone > by > Re: PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 > by Roger Elliott > Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > by Liberty > Fw: per minute charges ? -Reply > by Liberty > Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > by Bob Webber > Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > by Derrick J Brashear > Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > by Iain A Fraser > Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > by Don R. Millbranth > Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > by Roger Elliott > More info on Aerotrain > by Bill Nixon > Re: Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel > by Michael E. Allen > Re: Overgrown Chevys > by > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 > From: Hal6963@aol.com > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 05:52:01 EST > > Does anyone know anything about the quality of this steam locomotive made by > Penn Line. > > Harold > > Gainesville, FL > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 > From: Paintloco@aol.com > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:43:31 EST > > Greetings Harold, > I've always thought the Penn Line now Bowser T1 was a good model. When > compared to the prototype it appears to have all the complex curves and > mutiple planes of the original. That's good considering the model was > intoduced about 1948 and was relativly unchanged when Bowser pulled it off the > market several years ago. As of 2/6/98, I here that a greatly improved T1 will > be out in a few weeks from them. > The drive is brute force as those two DC 71's have more than enough torque. > The frame is articulated unlike the prototype. It runs well but on tight > curves (less that 36" radius) the overhang looks silly. At one time a one > piece cover plate was available to make the drive rigid but the minimum radius > was over 40". > I have built 2 T1s for myself and a couple for customers. I found that the > earlier runs (prior to about 1980) had much cleaner superstucture castings > that the later ones did. I guess the tooling was showing its age.The super > detail kit is a must as detail is on the light side. People who have seen the > new one tell me that the boiler is exquisite. The drive is unchanged. I am > looking forward to getting my hands on one as soon as possible. I hope these > comments help. > Don Murphy, a steam locomotive afficianado. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Modern PRR Locomotives > From: "Kevin Tully" > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:10:22 PST > > I am looking for locomotive nuts to help in developing a list of detail > parts for the modern PRR locomotives. Mostly with the "family" parts > that will make the locomotives "belong" together. An example of this is > what type of horn should we go with? Same on all locomotives, or > different on 4 axle (switchers and road units same or different?) and > six axle? > > > > Kevin J. Tully > C.E.O. > FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. > "The Allegheny Route" > A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. > http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) > From: Ron Dugas > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:56:15 -0800 (PST) > > Hi All, > > Kris, I think, wrote, > > > snip.................the stripes should be gold duluxe with a circle and > > keystone located just behind the front doors. Consider a toluidine red > > keystone, outlined in that same stunning gold on the sloping hood of the > > family vehicle and the statement is complete. > > I've been considering the first BP20 scheme for my Ford van: DGLE with the > 5 Gold Stripes ending at the Circled Keystone behind the cab doors, > etc...(no nose "whiskers"). > > The only concern I have is the amount of solar gain a, basically, black > vehicle receives during the summer. Living in the NW I don't think I'll > have too much trouble with old SPF's "flagging" me down. AND I wouldn't > mind at all if they did! > > Keep on 4-Trackin' > > Ron. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Overgrown Chevys) > From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:59:15 -0600 > > Mike Allen reports: > > >I have seen that van... Northbound on Rooseveldt Blvd spring of 1992. I > >believe there is a picture and ownership data in an early issue of > >Railfan > > ===== > > Gawd! Have we been reduced to railfanning other railfans? Incestuous! > > > Robert A. Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > > ========================================================== > > "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel > From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:04:04 EST > > [This is posted to both the RR and PRR lists] > > Some months back there was a thread concerning both additional tunnels > from New Jersey to New York and trains from the suburbs crossing > Manhattan enroute to other suburbs. > > In the November 1984 issue of Trains John Kneiling's column outlines the > original PRR plan for connecting the H&M, IRT, and Long Island for > through service and how it was shot down for purely political [as opposed > to economic considerations. > > There is another column from the late sixties or early seventies [I > haven't found it yet] which outlines the PRR plan to create downtown > airlines termila at Penn Station and connect EWR, LGA, and JFK with > dedicated train service. > > The more things change.... > > MEA > ______________________________ > PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com > Management Services Telephone > 609-683-0356 > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: PRR car decorations (was Re: Overgrown Chevys) > From: Sharon Edwards > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:45:19 -0800 > > Ron Dugas wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > snip > > Living in the NW I don't think I'll > > have too much trouble with old SPF's "flagging" me down. AND I wouldn't > > mind at all if they did! > > > > Where in the northwest? > > Doug Edwards > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel > From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 14:34:40 EST > > As I now correct my own spelling... > > MEA > ______________________________ > PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com > Management Services Telephone > 609-683-0356 > > On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:04:04 EST ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) > writes: > >[This is posted to both the RR and PRR lists] > > > >Some months back there was a thread concerning both additional tunnels > >from New Jersey to New York and trains from the suburbs crossing > >Manhattan enroute to other suburbs. > > > > In the November 1984 issue of Trains John Kneiling's column outlines > >the original PRR plan for connecting the H&M, IRT, and Long Island for > >through service and how it was shot down for purely political [as > >opposed to economic considerations. > > > >There is another column from the late sixties or early seventies [I > >haven't found it yet] which outlines the PRR plan to create downtown > >airlines terminal at Penn Station and connect EWR, LGA, and JFK with > >dedicated train service. > > > >The more things change.... > > > >MEA > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Keystone > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:53:40 EST > > There is a photo on Pennsy Power III of the Keystone behind a GG!. I would > suspect that the GG1 hauled the train to Harrisburg where power would be > changed as on most other passenger trains. When shifted to the NY-Washington > run, probably GG1's all the way > > Rich Orr > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: PRR T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 > From: Roger Elliott > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 12:08:42 -0800 > > Hal6963@aol.com wrote: > > > Does anyone know anything about the quality of this steam locomotive > > made by > > Penn Line. > > > > Harold > > > > Hello Harold, > I happen to have an old PennLine T-1 that I'm really pleased with. It's > not detailed like a brass loco and it does tend to "hunt" its way sown > the track, but I'd like to see any brass loco bull the complete Broadway > Limited (14 cars at present) up any sort of a grade. That heavy body > and the dual motors really HAUL! I bought a set of Boxpock drivers from > Bowser and some new valve gear and after repainting, it looks really > great. If yours has poor motors, you could probably relace them pretty > easily with the new can jobs. I'm still using the original open frame > motors. For a fifty year-old loco model, I'm really pleased. And > paying only $55 was a real treat! > > Hope this helps, > Roger Elliott > Arcata CA > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > From: "Liberty" > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:58:50 -0500 > > Have you read.................. > > ---------- > > From: Rod > > Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad > > Subject: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > > Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 2:48 PM > > > > This is no joke! Read! > > > > We are writing to you to inform you of a very important matter > > currently > > under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a > > proposal > > with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your Internet > > service.They > > contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the > > telephone > > network. It is our belief that Internet usage will diminish if users > > were > > required to pay additional per minute charges and the proposed > > resolution > > constitutes just plain bad public policy. The FCC has created an > > e-mail box > > for your comments. Responses must be received by February 13, 1998. > > Send your comments to: > > > > isp@fcc.gov > > > > and tell them what you think. > > Every phone company is in on this one (it will be a windfall for them) > > and > > they are trying to quietly sneak it in. Let everyone you know hear > > about > > this one. > > Send this e-mail address to everyone you can think of. > > ----- > > > > Rod > > http://www.linkline.com/personal/hotrod4x5 > > > > E mail hotrod4x5@hotmail.com > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Fw: per minute charges ? -Reply > From: "Liberty" > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:07:10 -0500 > > Guess I am out of date with this issue.... > > ---------- > > From: ISP > > To: liberty@infonline.net > > Subject: per minute charges ? -Reply > > Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 5:54 PM > > > > This is an automated response to the message you sent to isp@fcc.gov. We > established this mailbox for informal comments about usage of the public > switched telephone network by Internet access and information service > providers for a proceeding on this matter in 1997. > > > > If you are responding to a message stating that local phone companies > have asked the FCC for permission to impose per-minute charges for Internet > access, please be aware that this information is out of date. The FCC > decided in May 1997 NOT to allow imposition of interstate access charges on > Internet service providers. There is no comment period currently open in > this proceeding. > > > > More information on Access Charges and the ISP proceeding is available at > > > > > Look for more features and announcements on our Web site, > , in the future! > > > > updated 1/6/98.. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > From: Bob Webber > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:11:46 -0600 > > Yea, it's a hoax - and one that has been going out for years at that. > > At 05:58 PM 2/7/98 -0500, Liberty wrote: > >Have you read.................. > > > >---------- > >> From: Rod > >> Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad > >> Subject: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > >> Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 2:48 PM > >> > >> This is no joke! Read! > >> > >> We are writing to you to inform you of a very important matter > >> currently > >> under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a > >> proposal > >> with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your Internet > >> service.They > >> contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the > >> telephone > >> network. It is our belief that Internet usage will diminish if users > >> were > >> required to pay additional per minute charges and the proposed > >> resolution > >> constitutes just plain bad public policy. The FCC has created an > >> e-mail box > >> for your comments. Responses must be received by February 13, 1998. > >> Send your comments to: > >> > >> isp@fcc.gov > >> > >> and tell them what you think. > >> Every phone company is in on this one (it will be a windfall for them) > >> and > >> they are trying to quietly sneak it in. Let everyone you know hear > >> about > >> this one. > >> Send this e-mail address to everyone you can think of. > >> ----- > >> > >> Rod > >> http://www.linkline.com/personal/hotrod4x5 > >> > >> E mail hotrod4x5@hotmail.com > >> > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > From: Derrick J Brashear > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:03:24 -0500 (EST) > > On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Liberty wrote: > > > Have you read.................. > [fcc thing deleted] > > I wish this would just die already; This is at least 2 years old, and is > not currently ongoing. > > Anything which you get which is suggested you remail to everyone you know, > is probably an "urban legend" like this; The FCC did consider "data line" > charges, but that was quite a while ago. > > If anyone cares I'll dig up a URL, but please, let it die. > > -D > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > From: Iain A Fraser > Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:44:17 +0000 > > This is a hoax. Benn circulating around the mailing lists and > newsgroups for a long time. > > > Iain > > AEROLITE BOOKTRADERS > New and Used rail books > www.aerolite.u-net.com > _______________________ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > From: "Don R. Millbranth" > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:04:22 -0600 > > Folks... > FYI....to those that know... > To those that are not aware, please check out > before spreading rumors similar to this one, particularly OLD ones.. > Thanks... > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Fw: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > From: Roger Elliott > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:26:15 -0800 > > Bob Webber wrote: > > > Yea, it's a hoax - and one that has been going out for years at that. > > > > At 05:58 PM 2/7/98 -0500, Liberty wrote: > > >Have you read.................. > > > > > >---------- > > >> From: Rod > > >> Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad > > >> Subject: Telcos want to charge by the minute! READ not a joke > > >> Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 2:48 PM > > >> > > >> This is no joke! Read! > > >> > > >> We are writing to you to inform you of a very important matter > > >> currently > > >> under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has filed a > > >> proposal > > >> with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your Internet > > >> service.They > > >> contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the > > Hello, > As a student working on his Masters in telecomm, I can tell you it is > NOT a hoax. This was a very seriously debated issue, because YES our > internet use does hinder the network. It is still debated but as I > understand it from my instructor who still works within the telecomm > business, the solutions that are being worked out are the advent of > internet over the cable TV network, Changing the phone lines to handle > the increased bandwidth of the internet is going to take a lot of > money. Don't be surprised if the telecomm industry finds other ways to > get us to pay for this infrastructure. In other countries you have to > pay for the use of e-mail. I have friends in Indonesia and Europe who > say you have to pay for every e-mail you send. May advice is learn to > download everything quickly and do the rest of your work offline! > > Roger Elliott > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: More info on Aerotrain > From: "Bill Nixon" > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:00:52 +0000 > > Lots of info has been put out on the list about the Aero train, some > evidently incorrect. I am reading from a Catalog of the Collections > of the National Museum of Transport in St. Louis, hopefully this is > correct: > There were two (2) Aerotrains built in 1955, each composed of loco > and 10 cars to accomodate appx. 400 passengers. > After initial demonstrations on the New York Central, Pennsylvania and Union > Pacific railroads, > the trains were purchased by the Rock Island in 1958 > for suburban passenger service between Chicago and Joliet, IL. > They were replaced on April 23, 1965 by double deck commuter cars. > The NMOT received one power unit and two cars on November 18, 1966. > Hope this sheds some better light on the AEROTRAIN. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Cross - Manhattan Rail Travel > From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 22:30:37 EST > > To connect The H&M with the LIRR at Flatbush requires crossing Manhattan. > Follow the lines on a good map such as an older Hagstrom's Manhattan > which has streets, Railroads and transit lines on it and the routing will > make sense. > ______________________________ > PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com > Management Services Telephone > 609-683-0356 > > On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:01:11 EST Jayjay1213@aol.com writes: > >In the November 1984 article wasnt he talking about the connection at > >the > >LIRRs Flatbush Terminal which is in Brooklyn,. not manhattan. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Overgrown Chevys > From: PRRMAN@aol.com > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:55:15 EST > > In a message dated 98-02-05 13:20:32 EST, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: > > >Actually, any kind of a long auto like a station wagon would look nice in > >cats whiskers. > > Anyone who can do so without much difficulty should check out > the tourist operation at Laurel Highlands RR, in Scottsdale, PA. > The guy who essentially runs the operation has a van, beautifully > done in DGLE with 5 stripes and keystones. Hate to say it, but > the thing really looks good. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > End of PRR-Talk Digest > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:32:05 EST Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 788 Earlier in this discussion there was some mention of modern electrics such as converted diesels. I have a copy of the 1959 Westinghouse report on the PRR's electrified territory and in it is a recommendation to convert the BF-15/16 BP-20 and the BH-50 class to electrics. They all had Westinghouse electrical gear including traction motors which were built a little heavier than the EMD and GE motors at that time ( More copper ) If you want to model something different in motors one of these versions would be more believable than some B-B-B-B version. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:09:48 PST Content-Length: 8590 >I don't know how far we want to take this thread, as the PRR post-1968 could be what anyone wants it to be. If you're doing any 'realistic' blue-skying in your game, what are your assumptions? As this was put on the PRR-Talk net, I'm going to assume (1st assumption) that the comment above (which is directed)wasn't directed at me. 1. First, before I start to answer any of this post with the information that we (Jeremy, Jeff and I) HAVE come up with, let me say that "Rome wasn't built in a day. The ENTIRE purpose for me putting forth the question "WHAT IF" on this forum, was to draw from the knowledge and hopefully enlist, the members of the forum. After all, three people can make something seem real, but a group of people with collective knowledge have MAKE something real, at least on paper and in HO and N scale. I look at this project as an ongoing one. And like any large projects, the small items matter too (thus the discussion of what Keystone to use). Also, deciding these items allow us to begin modeling (which is my point for this whole affair), and leave the rest of the "facts" to a later date. OK, I'm off my soap box. >-- Did Amtrak come into being? When? What about the regional transit authorities, such as SEPTA and NJT, that were engendered by the lapse of the private companies' ability to provide adequate service? If so, how much of PRR's passenger traffic have they assumed? What has happened to the Northeast corridor, or for that matter, the rest of the electrified zone mains? These were PRR's (and PC's) freight mainlines as well as passenger routes, with some exceptions. 2. AS for passenger service, to the best of my knowledge, Jeremy or I (the cracked minds who decided to start this whole thing)have only a rudimentary working knowledge of passenger service. As well we should, we both model freight opperations. About two days after I first notified the group about the project, I asked for any and all group members that had an interest in both passenger service and the project to help us with this. To now, I have gotten no replies on this, or offers for help in this area. My request for help still stands. >-- The Pennsy didn't exist in a vacuum -- what happened to competitors, such as NYC -- Since merger with PRR was no longer in the picture, would NYC merge with/be taken over by C&O/B&O as Perlman wished, or in desperation did it take control of the RDG and CNJ, to strike into the heart of PRR territory? 3. We decided that the merger was denied by the ICC. We have not, so far, figured out how to make the PRR survive up until the takeover of NS in 1986. (Another point that needs to be worked on). NYC eventually went into CSX, and the EL was divided by the two. Also, we havn't decided on when our "version of history" would start. I don't think 1968 would be appropriate, as by this time doom was on the horizon. I think it would purhaps have been in the early 50's. I believe (and this in my own opinion) that if the PRR had stopped farting around with steam, and dieselized early (like UP) they would still be here today. While other roads were embracing the "cancer", PRR was still building experimental steam (S2). I realize that they were in coal country, but I also realize this is one of the major reasons they went under. Expelling money on worthless ventures. FYI: I am a MAJOR steam fan, and would that I could afford it right now, I'd have nothing but steam. >-- What about N&W/NKP/Wabash -- PRR sold the Sandusky branch to make this merger happen in 1964, more or less as a condition of approval of Penn Central. PRR foresook the control of N&W and the dividends that arguably had kept it afloat in the last years, in order to make PC happen. 4. This is another reason I think our "history" should start in the 50's. This could still be allowed, but with the PRR not wanting to merge into PC, and keeping control of the N&W. After all, we're writing history here. We can say that the ICC allow PRR to do this. >-- What about the weakling competitors, such as CNJ, RDG, E-L, LV? Would they have gone belly up, or merged into some kind of stronger MARC (Middle Atlantic Rail Corporation). Would they have become a government-supported Conrail, instead? 5. No. RDG, LV, and part of EL were sucked up by PRR. (Hell, UP has been doing this for years, why not PRR?) >-- What effect would the above combinations have had on PRR's business, especially given the physical condition of the railroad in 1968 (and one assumes, beyond)? 6. I believe with the profits from the N&W merger, and the added business taking over RDG and LV (they serviced PB&NE into Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem, PA) this would have generated enough capitol to keep the road afloat. Also, in our history (read the one on my homepage for my own road) PRR co-developed double stack intermodel with ATSF and Gunderson. As Jeremy said just today, with a coast-to-coast unbroken intermodel route, lots of capitol would have come about, and intermodel would have developed sooner. No one can deny that the PRR was a leader in intermodel development. >-- What about the regulatory climate? The Staggers act didn't take effect until 1980. Conrail was swirling the drain until that act took effect, and gave it back control of its own destiny. How would the PRR have coped for 12 years until 1980? A major part of PRR's problems were due to too many branches, full-crew laws, patronless passenger trains and no rate relief. I believe PRR suffered from the greatest percentage of passenger-train miles of any of the major railroads in 1968. It also seems like many parts of the road had an extreme case of deferred maintenance by the mid-60's. Shots I've seen of PRR in its last independent days make the railroad appear pretty ratty. Where did the money come from for the new paint schemes and the other stuff people are talking about, if they couldn't maintain their track and equipment? The 'simplified' 'keystone and reporting marks only' scheme seems to have been an attempt to be as economical as possible in car and locomotive 'decoration' (something the big boys of today seem to be doing, at least on freight cars). 7. I believe I answered this one already. Let me add though, that what we are seeking to do here is to "right" all the wrongs that made the road die in the first place. This is a good example of this. If wrongs were righted in the 50's or early 60's, would not the wrongs of the later 60's be disolved? >Things to consider when dreaming up a railroad that never was, before >worrying about more minor issues such as whether the keystone should be in a circle or with a shadow. >Let the flames begin... 8. I don't really know how to take this last issue. Especially that last comment. Just playing devils advocate, or jeering? Things to ponder on an unsigned email. A last note. I recieved about a dozen or so people interested in this project. I hope the above original email starts people to thinking about these issues. I'll be the first to admit, they will need to be answered. I've worked on several ficticious railroads, my own for example. But this is the first "what if" that I've worked on. In dreaming up a ficticious railroad, the big picture is a good part of it, but in the modeling world, it's the little details that make the road "seem" real. I've had people at show's ask me where my road "was". I usually get a pretty good reaction when I tell them that it never "was". We have to remember, our common thread is the PRR. Past, and now, for a few of us who wonder, present. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:17:55 EST Subject: Re: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Content-Length: 2005 In a message dated 98-02-09 14:30:13 EST, you write: << Subj: Re: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Date: 98-02-09 14:30:13 EST From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org (Mark D Bej) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com > The first ETT I grabbed is a Phila Terminal dated 11/14/43. It > shows the Grays Ferry branch as running from Zoo (MP 0.0) > to Arsenal (MP 2.4). This was confirmed by a 4/29/56 and > a 4/30/67. I guess the point where the line comes from > Powelton into the Suburban Line is considered part of > Arsenal interlocking, although it's at least half a mile north of > the tower. What interests me is that none of the branch > goes to the part of Philly known as Grays Ferry! Remind this former Philadelphian -- where is that neighborhood, exactly? -- Mark >> Gray's Ferry Avenue comes to South Street about 22nd Street or so, and the Naval Home backs up against the AT&T Long Lines building. The eastern end of the neighborhood is a continuation of the historical black neighborhood centered at 23rd and Bainbridge, the western end is white and includes a very large but abandoned textile mill complex, whose name I disremember at the moment, which is followed by a public housing section (two-floor apartments) just east of the Schuykill Expressway; the neighborhood has made headlines recently as a place where racial tensions can and have been reduced by direct community action and a bit of external PR. Gray's Ferry Avenue hooks a right (going south) and crosses the Schuykill River south of the junction of the NEC and the Media Line, and might extend to Woodland Avenue or even Baltimore Avenue (no Philly map with me here in Chicago). Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 02:05:14 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) Content-Length: 672 Bob Zoeller complains: >I guess no one is interested in doubleheaded Q2's, the SouthWind or the >operating fun of the Southland and Grand Rapids locals. ===== Well I am, Bob! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:30:21 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Content-Length: 1632 Greetings, Why not use a P2K PA-1 or P2K E units. Cut body in half, put the two cabs back to back add some pantographs etc.....If you like 4 axle units the same could be done with with Walthers GE Dash-40b's......some thoughts. If PRR had survived, maybe Alco did also by manufacturing electrics..... At 12:02 PM 2/9/98 PST, you wrote: >Wow, I got some interesting responses about the electrics. I'm working >with Joe Zappa of Liberty, and we can realistically produce a "what if" >locomotive. > >I like the idea about using used two axle trucks in a B+B-B+B >applicaton. We'd have to come up with a frame, span bolster and shell. > >Who would PRR have worked with, GE or EMD? this will give the style of >cab and so forth. I'd vote for EMD, as Cannon & Co. makes many parts >that could be used to produce a master. > > > >Kevin J. Tully >C.E.O. >FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. >"The Allegheny Route" >A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. >http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 08:29:53 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1050 On 2/9/98 9:11 PM, Hal6963@aol.com (Hal6963@aol.com) wrote: >Does anyone know of a source for pictures of the Spruce Creek Station, east >portals and the bridges? The area you describe is beautiful! I spent an afternoon on the Spruce Creek - Tyrone leg last summer and took "some" photos. Mike Bezilla - on this list - wrote a Railfan Guide to the area. It includes some photos and provides instructions for getting in and out of many photo locations. Yes, Spruce Creek would make for a beautiful model. The town is a popular trout fishing locale and was frequented by President Jimmy Carter -- one of his favorite fishing holes! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 9:35:46 EST Content-Length: 1218 > I recently received the topo maps of the area and it certainly presents some > interesting modeling opportunities. The tunnels are double track twin bores > and they are not parallel to each other. I have a 1908 post card that shows > what I believe to be the west portals at about 60 feet apart with a single > masonry portal approximately 120 to 150 feet long. I don't recall a single masonry portal, but two. BUt I have to check my photos. You're correct about the north (w/b) track crossing the river twice. I have many pix of the area if/when you need them. I would think 8' would be minimum; you may wish to compress less and make it 12', especially since this module will have nonstandard track spacing and would have to come as a matched set. SPRUCE tower was west of the west portals, where 2 tracks became 3. (Each tunnel had only 1 track when the tracks were centered for vertical clearance.) TUNNEL interlocking (vintage unknown) was east of the tunnels. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Harris tower get-together Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:12:15 EST Content-Length: 1382 Mike, this is now the 3rd part of your message. I'm cc:ing this part to prr-talk@dsop.com, i.e., the larger list rather than the modular group. > Another bit of info. I'm the Chairman of the Harris Tower Committee and > the Picnic Committee. On Saturday, February 21st, from 11:00 am to 3:00pm > at Harris Tower on Walnut Street in Harrisburg, we're having a Winter > Railfanfest. Harris has heat and I'll have refreshments available for a > donation. Bring a chair to sit on and a camera. Conrail's Harrisburg Line > and the Royalton Branch pass on the trackside as well as Amtrak's Line > West. We'll get about 10-12 trains through during the Railfanfest period. > It's a great get-together for all, public and railfans alike. You're all > welcome to come on out if you can. I can be contacted for directions. > > Mike Guys, you've got your invites. I'm 6 hrs away and won't make it but anyone in the area, go for it. And join the Hbg Chap while you're at it - it's a good bunch, you get to take care of a GG1 and a cabin car, the newsletter is excellent, etc etc etc. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 09:13:30 CST Subject: More video talk Content-Length: 1539 Hi, all, Since I'm a big fan of RR videos, having no memory of steam on US railroads, I'm always on the lookout for what's good. RE the cab-ride videos from Green Frog (?), don't know about them. But I have seen the ones put out by Railroad Videos (I think) - they have a long list of videos shot from the cab of AMTRAK runs and the one from Harrisburg to Huntingdon is pretty good, in part because little is left out and many of the wood frame towers were still standing when the video was shot. I also own one of the their early collections (v. 2. I think) of PRR steam shot in color on 8mm film. Some pretty good stuff, a lot of average footage (partly due to the mediocre quality of the film). The price is so good, though, that I'm thinking about some of the other volumes. Anyone seen these others (I think they're up to #5 or 6)? Finally, speaking of the Middle Div., does anyone know when the wood frame station and passenger shelter at Port Royal was torn down? Passenger trains quit stopping here in the mid-50's but some local folks I have talked with believe the station remained standing into the 1970's. Your help would be appreciated. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:52:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) Content-Length: 274 We Lines West people have to stick together. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:14:28 EST Subject: Re: Knowledge Content-Length: 819 In a message dated 98-02-10 07:06:55 EST, Kevin J. Tully writes: << Just for my own want to know, how many of the "What If" interested folks model/follow modern (1998) railroading? >> Until a year ago, I was modeling two eras and have as much Conrail stuff (30 movers boxes) as 1950 Pennsy. Still railfan as I think it is a necessity for any modeler interested in realistic operation. I am astounded at the modelers at our club who have their ideas of how railroads work from the model press of the 50's and 60's, which was notoriously naive and inaccurate compared to today. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 09:17:32 CST Subject: Forthcoming Fleet of Mod. decals Content-Length: 777 Hi, all, I noted in the Branchline trains ad for their up-coming FOM cars that they will have the Futura lettering. If I remember rightly, some the FOM cars that kept their paint scheme into the late 1940's had the post-war PRR passenger car lettering - i.e., the serif lettering. Is this correct? What about the Rivarossi FOM cars? Which type of lettering did they have? Whatever, I can hardly wait for the decals! PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:03:11 -0800 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: Re: Thoughts on Electrics and the Modern PRR Content-Length: 757 >If the PRR kept the NE corridor, it would surely have been maintained >as electrified territory. Also, one must consider the possibility of >expanded electrified territory. On more than one occassion the PRR >considered electrifying the line all the way to Pittsburgh. Would the >oil embargo and subsequent diesel price increases been the final push? Lets not forget a previous discussion we had regarding electrification and the use of double-stacks. Wouldn't clearance restrictions put a damper on the expansion of electrification???? ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:05:54 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Looking for gears Content-Length: 1127 Help! I am trying to find one or more sets of the worm-gear combination once sold by Walthers, Catalog No. T-374, used to power the O Scale Baldwin Model Loco Works F-3 and F-7 diesels and the FM switcher. The worm is steel, single start (single thread), with a pitch of 0.100 inch, an OD of 0.435 in., and a length of about 0.400 in. The hole size is .1875 (3/16) inch. The associated gear is laminated phenolic, with a brass bushing, has 14 teeth, and an OD of approximately 0.500 in. Pitch diam is 0.438 in. Gear hole diameter is 0.156 (5/32) in. The center-to-center distance of the assembled set is 0.406 in. This was not a Boston Gear Co. product. I am in dire need of a set to repair a Fairbanks-Morse switcher, or will have to repower it by other means. I can send a sketch if that will help. Will be happy to discuss a price. Thank you very much, Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:33:43 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Knowledge Content-Length: 1692 Kevin asks: >Just for my own want to know, how many of the "What If" interested folks >model/follow modern (1998) railroading? > ====== Keven - whatever this modern stuff is, it is NOT railroading. "Conveyerbelting" is probably a better term. Things are getting to the point where you can take a CW- whatever and a string of double stacks, letter em UPSPATSFPRRGN and run em at flank speed round and round on a circle of code 100 track- and be absolutely prototypically accurate. What's the fun in that? According to the hobby stats, nearly 90% model some historical period - that means only 10% or so do "modern". Model "railroading" is a form of living history, just like the Civil War people, except that (of necessity) we do our thing in miniature. This talk of a surviving (or revived) PRR is all fine and dandy: a sort of psychic railfanning, I suppose. But given the choice of a day spent at Horseshoe Curve today, or a night on the 38 Broadway, it's no contest. Hate to prick your bubble, there, but I am going to go along with the complaint that, if you have the capacity to do an electric, do a period one. Best of luck on that, by the way. Regards, Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:42:51 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1157 On 9 Feb, Doug Drew wrote: > -- The Pennsy didn't exist in a vacuum -- what happened to competitors, > such as NYC -- [... ] > -- What about N&W/NKP/Wabash [ ... ] Taking these and a bunch of your other points together, why not posit Staggers taking place *before* PC (say, 1962), and so avoid the massive bankruptcies that caused PC to happen? Regulatory freedom would make the PRR much stronger, although it breaks my heart to say that I'm still not too hopeful about passenger traffic. If you want to still make mergers happen, why not merge N&W and PRR in the sixties as well? With an earlier Staggers, you can forget the divestiture you mention above, and go the other way to merger. That would make the C&O/B&O/NYC merger more likely. Chesapeake Central? New York and Ohio? Guess what? We wind up with next year's railroads, thirty years earlier, and with far less economic turbulence in the interim! Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Listmaster Comments Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 12:12:19 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1291 A few notes: 1. I was asked, and said that I don't mind, if the "PRR to the Future" project could use some bandwidth here. However, the posts for this project are getting exceedingly long, are often argumentative, and contain much unnecessary data from previous postings. Please shorten these posts and get to the point or I will have to ask that this discussion take place elsewhere. 2. When you receive the digest, DO NOT copy the entire digest into your replies. (I responded in a friendly manner directly to Carl Izzo for his recent megapost.) This places an unnecessary load on the listserv, not to mention that most readers don't want a huge file clogging up their bandwidth or filling their mailbox. 3. When replying from a digest, be sure to edit the SUBJECT or it will read "RE: PRR-Talk Digest xxx" which is totally meaningless -- to anyone! Thank you. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 10 Feb 98 12:45:41 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Fantasy PRR (long) Content-Length: 1945 I don't know, I guess it must be me. I don't feel I'm qualified to rewrite PRR history, where PRR history actually exists. Those so inclined can continue dreaming about the PRR that might have been, pre- or post-1968, and rewriting history in their minds to fit their dreams. I'd prefer to learn as much as I can about the PRR that actually existed, pre-1968. There's certainly enough material to work with there, and I have really appreciated the learned level of discourse and sharing about The Standard Railroad of the World that was taking place on this list. I have 'Saved Mail' files chock full of information I haven't found anywhere else. Also, Jerry Britton and Mark Bej ought to be knighted for their efforts on their individual web sites. I would appreciate some sort of flag about these PRR-fantasies in the headers of subsequent messages, where history is being changed to fit someone's "dream PRR", or imaginary roster or equipment information is being put forth as if it were fact. Otherwise, the PRR-list risks turning into some kind of fantasy railroad discussion group, and could be extremely confusing to those subscribing and expecting factual information being discussed. Often, it's difficult enough in determining the truth about the Pennsy, as it really existed. Jerry Britton, could you establish some kind of header naming convention in this regard? Ideally, there would be a separate e-mail discussion list for the fantasy PRR enthusiasts, to keep fiction separated from fact. Others might feel the way I do. Or, it may just be me. I'm often wrong, but never in doubt -- and never afraid to open my big mouth. Sorry if I've offended anyone. Thanks! -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:09:13 EST Content-Length: 1028 > > > Or what about regenerative braking (essentially, turning the motors > > > into generators and putting the current back into the wire). > > > Were the GG1's capable of this? > > My (possibly inexact) recollection was that they were indeed capable, > > but that it was not exercised due to load and/or frequency sync issues. > You are wrong, GG-1's did not have regenerative braking ever. Sorry, I > ran the things and was the last supervisor of engineers (RFE/Trainmaster > for CR presently Balto./DC) on the south end while they were running. I > used to run the things myself when I was running. Might I suggest a somewhat softer reply next time? My post (> > above) was _specifically_ written with vague language because I was not sure. Thanks. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:47:06 -0500 From: "Robert W. Johnston" Subject: PRR What if Locomotives Content-Length: 1321 FWIW, IMHO, I think that it is a disservice to the general PRR modeling community to encourage a model producer to create a model of a fictional locomotive. While it is a neat thought experiment, I would much rather see the limited modeling capacity of the industry dedicated to the creation of historically correct, and prototypically accurate models. However, the PRR's history does indicate that a new electric locomotive would have been built in house, with support provided by Westinghouse and possibly Baldwin or Lima, if either of those last two companies were still in business. In volume 1 of Black Diamonds there are several proposed designs for new electrics. Of course there remains the possibility that the PRR would have revisited the coal fired mechanical transmission turbine locamotive, as well as one with an electrical transmission. The design documented in the above fore mentioned reference would have made the T1 and GG1 look down right plebean. When I get a roundtoit, I'll scratch build me one of those to display on my projected PRRMO module .... FYI rwj ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New Freedom Station Kit Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 15:14:39 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1070 Ivan Franz tells me that the Northern Central Chapter has sold out of their initial order of New Freedom Station kits from American Model Builders. Several "PRR-Talk" subscribers have ordered, the farthest being from California! More kits are on their way, so keep the orders coming! Ivan had two completed units on display the other day at the chapter meeting and they looked great! He said he'll soon be releasing his "paint mix" so that others may accurately paint their models. Again, the club (http://nccprrths.dsop.com) offers the kits for $55, which is 25% off retail. Proceeds go towards the restoration of the original New Freedom Station. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:18:07 EST Subject: Re: A Washington wreck rule? (fwd) Content-Length: 709 In a message dated 98-02-09 18:59:18 EST, dccareyd@ac1.co.ada.id.us writes: << "[Engineer Harry W. Brower] attempted to reverse the motors, but the overload relays blew and his last hope was gone." Trains and Travel, August 1953, at 21. >> For what it's worth. THe wreck occurred January, 1953. Inorder to prepare for President's Eisenhower's inaugaration, the station was repaired with the locomotive still in the basement. Only after the festivities was it removed. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:02:35 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 343 are these the "Coast & geodetic survey maps" ? Can you - or anyone post map numbers for Spruce Creek and Horseshoe curve/ Altoona ? ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:49:29 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 901 >are these the "Coast & geodetic survey maps" ? Can you - or anyone post map >numbers for Spruce Creek and Horseshoe curve/ Altoona ?< In response to a request (others may be interested): 1. Spruce Creek Quadrangle, 7.5 Minute Series, Scale 1:24,000. 2. Tyrone (shows Spruce Creek), 30 by 60 minute series, scale 1:100,000. 3. Hollidaysburg, PA, (Horseshoe Curve and most of the Allegeny Portage RR), 7.5 Minute Series, Scale 1:24,000. Price: $4.00 per sheet plus $3.50 for handling. Index by state free of charge by calling 1-800-USA-MAPS Maps available from: U.S.G.S. Information Service Box 25286 Denver, CO 25286 Harold R. McGee, SPF Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: Spruce Creek Tunnels Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:58:38 -0800 Content-Length: 2311 > ---------- > From: Mark D Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 6:35 AM > To: Hal6963@aol.com > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels > > > I recently received the topo maps of the area and it certainly presents > some > > interesting modeling opportunities. The tunnels are double track twin > bores > > and they are not parallel to each other. I have a 1908 post card that > shows > > what I believe to be the west portals at about 60 feet apart with a > single > > masonry portal approximately 120 to 150 feet long. > > I don't recall a single masonry portal, but two. BUt I have to check > my photos. > > You're correct about the north (w/b) track crossing the river twice. > > I have many pix of the area if/when you need them. > > I would think 8' would be minimum; you may wish to compress less and make > it 12', especially since this module will have nonstandard track spacing > and would have to come as a matched set. > > SPRUCE tower was west of the west portals, where 2 tracks became 3. > (Each tunnel had only 1 track when the tracks were centered for vertical > clearance.) TUNNEL interlocking (vintage unknown) was east of the > tunnels. > > There seems to be some confusion about how many tracks there are. 1950 track charts show three tracks from FORGE (Tyronne) to TUNNEL (one mile east of bores). SPRUCE therefore had three tracks. The northern bore had two tracks, and the southern bore had 1. Today, conrail uses the northern bore only. They enlarged the bore around 1994 and have two tracks in it. The southern bore is used for access vehicles. Before the tunnel enlargement, they might have had 1 track in each bore - I don't know. Today, there is a universal two track interlocking at TUNNEL, and nothing at SPRUCE. John > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:15:46 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 1188 In a message dated 98-02-10 17:58:48 EST, John Cooper wrote: > There seems to be some confusion about how many tracks there are. 1950 > track charts show three tracks from FORGE (Tyronne) to TUNNEL (one mile east > of bores). SPRUCE therefore had three tracks. The northern bore had two > tracks, and the southern bore had 1. Today, conrail uses the northern bore > only. They enlarged the bore around 1994 and have two tracks in it. The > southern bore is used for access vehicles. Before the tunnel enlargement, > they might have had 1 track in each bore - I don't know. Today, there is a > universal two track interlocking at TUNNEL, and nothing at SPRUCE. Everything John says may be true for 1950, however, the 1906 post card shows 4 tracks, 2 in each bore, locomotives and rolling stock being smaller then. The time period I am modeling is 1916 so any research I do is based on what existed then. Harold R. McGee, SPF Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:18:21 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: MO tower Content-Length: 509 Hi folks..... I saw where George Pierson mentioned the Middle Div. does anyone know the status of MO tower?.....last i heard there was an attempt to dismantle it...but it did'nt happen and it was worse off for it. Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:15:07 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Forthcoming Fleet of Mod. decals Content-Length: 1143 George Pierson wrote: > > Hi, all, > > I noted in the Branchline trains ad for their up-coming FOM cars that they > will have the Futura lettering. If I remember rightly, some the FOM cars > that kept their paint scheme into the late 1940's had the post-war PRR > passenger car lettering - i.e., the serif lettering. Is this correct? > What about the Rivarossi FOM cars? Which type of lettering did they have? > Whatever, I can hardly wait for the decals! > > PRR forever! > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". George, All the Rivarossi FoM cars had the (bronze) gold sans serif lettering. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:13:34 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) Content-Length: 659 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > > We Lines West people have to stick together. > > Randy We know of the interest in the Eastern Origin areas. I have some interest in the Mountain division myself. Most writers do not appear to realize it was LINES WEST that made the PRR a great railroad rather than just a regional carrier. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:25:47 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Modern PRR Content-Length: 571 Gentlemen: To avoid the confusion I experience from your references, which may be felt by a few others, would it be possible to change the initials of your hypothetical railroad from MPRR to something which does not always cause this long time Missouri Pacific rider to jump the wrong way? Sincerely and politely requested, Steve Bartlett SPF ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:16:17 EST Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) Content-Length: 655 "Jaybirds"and "Q's" hauling "paydirt". S-1&2 and T-1's hauling varnish "at SPEED". Lima transfer units along side AS-616's on the mineral run. And a photographer by the name of J.J. Young Jr. creeping around in the Ohio Valley fog. The odd-ball good riding B-28's and L-2's working the Pan Handle. Sharks, Sharks and more Sharks. We Lines West boys always hang together!!!! Watching from Lines way out West! Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:43:40 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: FOM decals Content-Length: 1214 Jerry_Britton wrote: > Good news for those wanting to model the "Fleet of Modernism". Middle > Division decals will have FoM decal sets in time for the PRRT&HS > convention in late April. > > I spoke with the owner Monday evening. Several sets will be offered: > 1) > includes stripes and "PENNSYLVANIA" to do several cars. 2) Car names > 3-?) > several sets of the oval-ended window band, with varying lengths for > different cars. Hello Jerry, I was wondering if I could get copies of how each of the passenger cars was striped and lettered. Rail Graphics can make stripes in N-scale and I might be able to produce a master using Adobe Pagemaker. The only really hard part would be the decal around the windows. Perhaps a couple of "brackets" like this ( ) and then straight stripes. For the four stripes they could be on one strip of film. I would have to be real precise about the mask for the Maroon "windows" obviously. What do you think? Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:48:14 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Forthcoming Fleet of Mod. decals Content-Length: 1165 George Pierson wrote: > Hi, all, > > I noted in the Branchline trains ad for their up-coming FOM cars that > they > will have the Futura lettering. If I remember rightly, some the FOM > cars > that kept their paint scheme into the late 1940's had the post-war PRR > > passenger car lettering - i.e., the serif lettering. Is this correct? > > What about the Rivarossi FOM cars? Which type of lettering did they > have? > Whatever, I can hardly wait for the decals! > > PRR forever! > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". Hello George, Who is producing the decals and how do I get in touch with them? Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:07:47 PST Content-Length: 9990 >From trainnut@internetmci.com Tue Feb 10 13:38:27 1998 >Received: from jeremy-helms (usr10-dialup38.mix1.WillowSprings.mci.net) > by PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27035) > with ESMTP id <0EO6004VYMRN1R@PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for t1duplex@hotmail.com; > Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:38:24 +0000 (GMT) >Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:29:02 +0000 >From: trainnut >Subject: Re: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) >To: Kevin Tully >Reply-to: trainnut@internetMCI.com >Message-id: <0EO6004W1MRR1R@PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET> >MIME-version: 1.0 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 >Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Priority: 3 > >Kevin, > >Feel free to post this to the group or to ddrew if you would like to. Here >is my responses to these realistic questions. > >Jeremy Helms > >---------- >> >I don't know how far we want to take this thread, as the PRR post-1968 >> >could be what anyone wants it to be. If you're doing any 'realistic' >> >blue-skying in your game, what are your assumptions? >> >-- Did Amtrak come into being? When? > >Yes, Amtrak did come into being in 1976 (as per real history). They did >take over services from those WILLING to give up services. There was still >money to be made from the NorthEast Corridor (NEC). The Pennsylvania >Railroad told the government to take a long hike when they wanted to take >over the NEC. You see PRR was still making money on the passenger service >on the NEC, it was not however on the longer runs outside of the corridor >between St. Louis, Chicago and points east, just between Washington and NYC >on the NEC. With the PRR denying Amtrak service on the NEC (just as >Southern did with the Crescent) Amtrak would not have operated the NEC. It >is true, if the facts are correct, that the NEC is the only profitable >passenger line in the US. All other areas of operation require federal >subsidies to keep the trains moving. Therefore, some of your worst fears >would have come true--I do not believe there would be long haul passenger >service in the US anywhere past about 1985--Amtrak would be defunct--or >would have had to come up with the idea (as they do now) of running a small >portion of LCL business to make up some subsidies. > >> > What about the regional transit >> >authorities, such as SEPTA and NJT, that were engendered by the >> collapse of >> >the private companies' ability to provide adequate service? If so, how >> much >> >of PRR's passenger traffic have they assumed? > >Regional transit would have still come about. In the short haul business >there is not much to be said for money. These lines would have been spun >off anyway to the SEPTA, MARC, and NJT. All the passenger business they >would have garnished though would be the local commuter, as they do now. > >> > What has happened to the >> >Northeast corridor, or for that matter, the rest of the electrified >> zone >> >mains? These were PRR's (and PC's) freight mainlines as well as >> passenger >> >routes, with some exceptions. > >NEC would have remained, I believe, electrified just for the use of the >passenger trains. Freight has gone a totally different direction since the >early 80s. Cars have grown up--by that I mean what used to be a tall >freight car--Plate B and Plate C--are small by today's standards--Plate D >and Plate E. The open top bilevel autorack has been replaced by huge >enclosed trilevel monstrous contraptions. What used to be trailer on >flatcar has turned into the billion dollar industry of double stacks >sitting over 21 feet to the top of a decently stacked car. Which brings up >another issue, that of increased clearances. With Conrail, they did not >have to go about this because they had a number of different routes to >choose from to get to the coast, Pennsylvania did not have that >option--they had one major corridor and that was it. To remain competitive >they would have raised those critical clearances--early! Electrification >would have got in the way. > >> >-- The Pennsy didn't exist in a vacuum -- what happened to competitors, >> >such as NYC -- Since merger with PRR was no longer in the picture, >> would >> >NYC merge with/be taken over by C&O/B&O as Perlman wished, or in >> desperation >> >did it take control of the RDG and CNJ, to strike into the heart of PRR >> >territory? > >NYC and PRR would have done some more minor dealings with stock control and >the such to keep going. It would have been tough going at first. NYC we >believe would have been swallowed up eventually by C&O/B&O. > >> >-- What about N&W/NKP/Wabash -- PRR sold the Sandusky branch to make >> this >> >merger happen in 1964, more or less as a condition of approval of Penn >> >Central. PRR foresook the control of N&W and the dividends that >> arguably had >> >kept it afloat in the last years, in order to make PC happen. > >Because of the strike down in the merger of PC and the great political ties >of the PRR and NYC, something would have been given as a settlement to keep >these 2 railroads semi quiet. PRR, we feel, would have been given stock >control of the NW again while the board would have "looked the other way" >as NYC swallowed some small eastern carriers. > >> >-- What about the weakling competitors, such as CNJ, RDG, E-L, LV? >> Would >> >they have gone belly up, or merged into some kind of stronger MARC >> (Middle >> >Atlantic Rail Corporation). Would they have become a >> government-supported >> >Conrail, instead? > >Weakling competitors such as CNJ, L&NE, LV, RDG, EL would have been >purchased by the NYC and PRR with a little help from the Government. >Remember we are talking about a time period when a lot of people felt the >government did too much and taking these railroads under it's wing would >not have been looked at too fondly. Conrail is a moot point because of >this. Basically what we are saying would have happened is that PRR would >have bought out what is now known as Norfolk Southern and NYC would have >become part of what is now CSX. We feel there would have been only 2 major >railroads in the east before there were ever only 2 in the west. > >> >-- What effect would the above combinations have had on PRR's business, >> >especially given the physical condition of the railroad in 1968 (and >> one >> >assumes, beyond)? > >PRR would have clawed it's way back to being a top Class 1 railroad, albeit >would have taken a while. It would have required some government >intervention, just like most railroads have received federal help at many >points in their life. > >> >-- What about the regulatory climate? The Staggers act didn't take >> effect >> >until 1980. Conrail was swirling the drain until that act took effect, >> >and gave it back control of its own destiny. How would the PRR have >> coped >> >for 12 years until 1980? A major part of PRR's problems were due to too >> many >> >branches, full-crew laws, patronless passenger trains and no rate >> relief. > >They would have had to have suffered through the regulatory climate just >like the rest of the railroads did. They would have diversified their >investments, just like Penn Central did. As a matter of fact, the >investment portion of Penn Central is still around today--because they had >diversified their money. Upper management would have undergone a huge >change. Lots has been written about how PC and early Conrail would have >done much better if under different management. Changing the management >changes the philosophy behind a company. PRR would have had to have >undergone a major power change and it would have happened from the inside. > >> >I believe PRR suffered from the greatest percentage of passenger-train >> >miles of any of the major railroads in 1968. It also seems like many >> parts >> >of the road had an extreme case of deferred maintenance by the >> mid-60's. >> >Shots I've seen of PRR in its last independent days make the railroad >> appear >> >pretty ratty. Where did the money come from for the new paint schemes >> and >> >the other stuff people are talking about, if they couldn't maintain >> their >> >track and equipment? The 'simplified' 'keystone and reporting marks >> only' >> >scheme seems to have been an attempt to be as economical as possible in >> >car and locomotive 'decoration' (something the big boys of today seem >> to be >> >doing, at least on freight cars). > >With the previously mentioned changes in the infrastructure of The Railroad >money would have also come. With the restructuring of government would >have come money. Look at the UP of the 1960s-70s and compare it with now. >We are talking 2 totally different railroads and that is where it happened >for UP and that is where it would have happened for PRR. > >> >Things to consider when dreaming up a railroad that never was, before >> >worrying about more minor issues such as whether the keystone should be >> in a >> >circle or with a shadow. >> >Let the flames begin... > >Consider the above points in a relative manner and think you will see that >we have thought this through quite well. Not totally but it definitely is >a plausible deviation from the true timeline. And we are only talking of >changing one thing--the PC merger agreement. > >Jeremy Helms > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:23:10 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: A curious comment about the Broadway Content-Length: 1344 Hello All, I just received this comment in an e-mail, and thought I'd pass it along to see if anyone can amplify: >I ran across an interesting tidbit recently >about the Broadway Limited, which was very new and surprising to me. By >the late 1930's, the Broadway was very decidedly a "loss leader" for the >PRR. There was one trip when it carried only two passengers out of New >York only one of whom was through to Chicago. There was an internal memo >written in response to the suggestion that they should take the train off >which said, partly parphrasing "We have to keep running this train to keep >up our image vis-a-vis the New York Central. If we take it off, we'll be >seen as in the same class as the Erie or the Baltimore & Ohio." (That part >about the Erie and the B&O is virtually verbatim). Any thoughts on this one? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: Knowledge Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:33:50 PST Content-Length: 3112 >>Just for my own want to know, how many of the "What If" interested folks >>model/follow modern (1998) railroading? >> >====== > >Keven - whatever this modern stuff is, it is NOT railroading. >"Conveyerbelting" is probably a better term. > >Things are getting to the point where you can take a CW- whatever and a >string of double stacks, letter em UPSPATSFPRRGN and run em at flank speed >round and round on a circle of code 100 track- and be absolutely >prototypically accurate. This is an interesting point, especially from a PRR railfan. One of the things many of you may not know about me is that I model two periods, 1943 and the present. Yes, in railroading today, "unit" trains do seem to rule the rails. But let us all not forget, that during WWII, the "unit" train was very much alive. Only it was two I1's on the nose and a string of ore, coal, fuel/oil, tanks/military vehicles behind them. This was evedent to the point that the Nazi's sent four sabature's to the US on a U-Boat (the real kind) with orders to blow up Penn Station, cripple Altoona and if they had the time, Horseshoe Curve! I myself have a "unit" train of fourty and fifty foot flats loaded down with MH A3 Shermans! >What's the fun in that? > >According to the hobby stats, nearly 90% model some historical period - >that means only 10% or so do "modern". Model "railroading" is a form of >living history, just like the Civil War people, except that (of necessity) >we do our thing in miniature. Is not Modern a historical period? I was in Desert Storm, and now the present is history, at least on the History Channel. >This talk of a surviving (or revived) PRR is all fine and dandy: a sort of >psychic railfanning, I suppose. But given the choice of a day spent at >Horseshoe Curve today, or a night on the 38 Broadway, it's no contest. > >Hate to prick your bubble, there, but I am going to go along with the >complaint that, if you have the capacity to do an electric, do a period >one. No bubble pricking here, after all, model railroading is all up to the imagination. That's where the FM&C got it's start. Anyone who has taken a history class at college has had an assignment simular to this project. Pick a point in history where something went wrong and make it right. Then write a paper on what the outcome would have been. After all, two television shows survived several seasons on this same idea! >Regards, > > >Robert A. Boyd >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: recent posts / modern PRR... Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:53:10 -0500 Content-Length: 1565 Hi all, Now I realize that I should probably not get too involved with this, but, I already am. I can understand the need to keep posts short, etc. and all, and I even understand the desire to have more prototypical hardware modeled. But what I don't understand is those of you who come down on Kevin and the others (myself included) for wanting to 'fantasize' a bit, and do something different ! It is our right do indulge in the things we wish, legally of course. Now, as part owner of Liberty Model Productions, I can tell you that our primary goal is to produce highly detailed models, as accurate as we can (with a focus on PRR), but, this(model railroading) is a hobby, one to enjoy ! We are all very different, and have different definitions of what is 'enjoyable', please don't chastise others if their view is a bit different than yours. enough soapbox..... BTW- I didn't want to let this out just yet, but we are planning to a series of P-5 models, as well as the E-44 ! Just remember, we ( Liberty ) are a small fish in a big ocean, and these things take a good bit of time to accurately research and produce. If we could go any faster, I assure you we would !! I will have an update on 'Shark' progress soon. Thank you all for your support and generosity ! Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:26:00 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Fantasy PRR (long) Content-Length: 2101 Doug Drew wrote: > I don't know, I guess it must be me. No, it's me, too. Yea! > I would appreciate some sort of flag about these PRR-fantasies in the > headers of subsequent messages, where history is being changed to fit > someone's "dream PRR", or imaginary roster or equipment information is being put forth as if it were fact. Otherwise, the PRR-list risks turning into some kind of fantasy railroad discussion group > Often, it's difficult enough in determining the truth about the Pennsy, as> it really existed. Time to cast my vote, Doug, and I'm with you. Sorry to be raining on people's parades, but I honestly think it's time to simply say the truth: This has gotten out of hand. When I log on and find 41 messages, half or more of which are posts of this nature, it strains the boundaries. Jerry, I do second the knighthood sentiment that Doug has offered, and you know that others and I have expressed appreciation before for your good, and mostly thankless, work. But IMHO, you have, while trying to be democratic and let everyone have a say -- however frequently and however distantly connected to the factual, actual, PRR it may be -- the list has lost interest for me. I don't dislike or wish to dishonor the folks who enjoy doing this, but I do dislike having to take the time to tediously delete a high percentage of posts. Dan Cupper fantasy PRR enthusiasts, to keep fiction separated from fact. > > Others might feel the way I do. Or, it may just be me. I'm often wrong, > but never in doubt -- and never afraid to open my big mouth. Sorry if I've > offended anyone. > > Thanks! > > -- Doug Drew > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 05:41:34 EST Subject: Re: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Content-Length: 1321 In a message dated 98-02-10 01:29:44 EST, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: >Grey's Ferry Branch included the swing bridge on which >the PRR crossed from the West to East sides of the river In all post-1930 ETT's in my possession, that bridge is part of the Delaware Extension, and the Grays Ferry Branch runs only from Zoo to Arsenal. Hypothesis(with no known facts to support it): In the days prior to the building of 30th St., could that portion of the Suburban Line which runs from the current (well, recent....) connection with the Grays Ferry Branch south to Arsenal have been considered part of the Grays Ferry Branch? If so, then the G.F. Branch would have actually gone to Grays Ferry. A 1927 Phila Terminal ETT lists a place called Grays Ferry, 1.1 mile north of Brill (actually, "inward" from Brill---trains on the PT in those days were identified as "inward" and "outward"). If anyone has a good, detailed, pre-1930 map of the whole Zoo-West Phila-Brill area trackage, I would dearly love to see it scanned into somebody's web page! Rich Copeland (and over anoth ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:31:06 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 930 >The area you describe is beautiful! I spent an afternoon on the Spruce >Creek - Tyrone leg last summer and took "some" photos. > >Mike Bezilla - on this list - wrote a Railfan Guide to the area. It >includes some photos and provides instructions for getting in and out of >many photo locations. well, sort of. I did a 3 part series for Railpace on railfanning the middle division Lewistown-Altoona. List member Scott Johnson contributed much of the photography. The info is a bit dated now, of course. Yes, Jerry is right--the area is beautiful, and part of it surrounding the tunnels is a state natural area. But if you trespass on rr property, be prepared for whatever consequences follow. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:36:48 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: RE: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 1070 >There seems to be some confusion about how many tracks there are. 1950 >track charts show three tracks from FORGE (Tyronne) to TUNNEL (one mile east >of bores). SPRUCE therefore had three tracks. The northern bore had two >tracks, and the southern bore had 1.... Before the tunnel enlargement, >they might have had 1 track in each bore - I don't know. Originally each tunnel had 2 tracks but by 1950, as noted, the southern or eastbound bore had one, mainly to give clearance to wider cars & engines. Then when Truc-Train came along, PRR single-tracked the other bore, don't know the exact date.From SPRUCE to Tyrone (FORGE, actually) was always 3 tracks. From SPRUCE eastward was 4, then 3, then 2 as far as TUNNEL. From TUNNEL east was 4. So it was the SPRUCE-TUNNEL segment that varied in the number of tracks over the years. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 9:30:08 EST Content-Length: 1383 > There seems to be some confusion about how many tracks there are. 1950 > track charts show three tracks from FORGE (Tyronne) to TUNNEL (one mile east > of bores). SPRUCE therefore had three tracks. John, I thought we did not know the location of a set of Middle Division track charts ... :-) > The northern bore had two > tracks, and the southern bore had 1. Ah, thanks. > Today, conrail uses the northern bore only. They enlarged the bore > around 1994 and have two tracks in it. The southern bore is used for > access vehicles. Also correct. > Before the tunnel enlargement, > they might have had 1 track in each bore - I don't know. There was, as my photos will attest. I have photos of SPRUCE tower, which controlled SPRUCE and TUNNEL interlockings. Both were at _least_ 2-track to 3-track transitions; I'm uncertain without checking my photos if other crossovers existed. SPRUCE (both the tower and the interlocking) was taken out when the 3rd track was removed, 261 was put in, and only a simplified TUNNEL was kept. > Today, there is a > universal two track interlocking at TUNNEL, and nothing at SPRUCE. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: MO tower Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 10:06:20 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1443 On 2/10/98 8:18 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > I saw where George Pierson mentioned the Middle Div. > > does anyone know the status of MO tower?.....last i heard there was an > > attempt to dismantle it...but it did'nt happen and it was worse off > > for it. It was still standing as of RailFest last fall. The town had constructed a platform and ramp about 1/2 mile west of its location, where it was to be moved to. This actually happed about two years ago. From that point, I have heard two differing stories. The first stated that when they went to move it they thought it would just fall apart...so they postponed. If it was that bad, I am surprised it is still standing in its original location two years later! The second suggested that there was some infighting about the intended use of the relocated tower....profit vs. non-profit and who would pay for moving it. Don't know which is accurate or the current status. The new location would be a gem for trainwatching, however. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: If you don't like it, don't watch it. (Was: RE:Fantasy PRR Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:59:51 PST Content-Length: 3929 >I don't know, I guess it must be me. > >I don't feel I'm qualified to rewrite PRR history, where PRR history >actually exists. > >Those so inclined can continue dreaming about the PRR that might have >been, pre- or post-1968, and rewriting history in their minds to fit their >dreams. I'd prefer to learn as much as I can about the PRR that actually >existed, pre-1968. There's certainly enough material to work with there, and >I have really appreciated the learned level of discourse and sharing about >The Standard Railroad of the World that was taking place on this list. I >have 'Saved Mail' files chock full of information I haven't found anywhere >else. Also, Jerry Britton and Mark Bej ought to be knighted for their >efforts on their individual web sites. > >I would appreciate some sort of flag about these PRR-fantasies in the >headers of subsequent messages, where history is being changed to fit >someone's "dream PRR", or imaginary roster or equipment information is being put >forth as if it were fact. Otherwise, the PRR-list risks turning into some >kind of fantasy railroad discussion group, and could be extremely >confusing to those subscribing and expecting factual information being discussed. >Often, it's difficult enough in determining the truth about the Pennsy, as >it really existed. > >Jerry Britton, could you establish some kind of header naming convention >in this regard? Ideally, there would be a separate e-mail discussion list >for the fantasy PRR enthusiasts, to keep fiction separated from fact. > >Others might feel the way I do. Or, it may just be me. I'm often wrong, >but never in doubt -- and never afraid to open my big mouth. Sorry if I've >offended anyone. > >Thanks! > >-- Doug Drew To the Group, You know, I could write volumes about why clubs are going the way of the dinosaur. And a letter like this is one of them. Two weeks ago, I got 18 posts from members of this group interested in our (Jeremy and my) "What If" PRR. Probably over 50 posts on "What If" electrics, and several other posts on misc. items about the project. I originally posted about the project, hoping that others with simular interests would jump on the wagon and help out, as you can't predict the future (reality or fiction) without knowing the past. Now don't get me wrong, I have alot of respect for anyone who is willing to stand up and make their feelings known. But I also respect people with couth. I have made it a point, since being requested by Jerry a few days ago, to attach the words, "Modern" or "What If PRR" to all of my posts. And here we are again. Many of you sent me posts about how you couldn't believe how someone would send me so called "hate" posts the last time I presented this Project to the group. Why just the other day, Drew, you presented a post reguarding some of the issues that needed to be answered in order to make the Project seem more realistic. Unless I see some posts reguarding further interest in the Project, Jeremy and I will take the project back over, and those interested in the Project can eather email me or just simply check my homepage and the Modern PRR Project Forum there. --- Jerry, thank you for the service your forum has provided me. --- For those with fellow interests, I am now researching and hope to model the Pennsylvania Railroad Railway Operating Battalion. I should have a place on my page for this soon. (By the way, the PRR ROB REALLY existed) Kevin J. Tully PRR Fan. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: PRR What if Locomotives Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:02:22 PST Content-Length: 817 >FWIW, IMHO, I think that it is a disservice to the general PRR modeling >community to encourage a model producer to create a model of a fictional >locomotive. While it is a neat thought experiment, I would much rather >see the limited modeling capacity of the industry dedicated to the >creation of historically correct, and prototypically accurate models. I guess you can add Lionel to that, as they are producing a locomotive that made the drawing board but not the shops. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:22:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) Content-Length: 445 Greg, I could not have put it any better. I have always been under impression (true or false) that it may have all been called the PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD. There seem to be two different railroads under one name. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:37:23 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 1179 In a message dated 98-02-11 08:19:52 EST, johncoop@microsoft.com writes: << There seems to be some confusion about how many tracks there are. 1950 track charts show three tracks from FORGE (Tyronne) to TUNNEL (one mile east of bores). SPRUCE therefore had three tracks. The northern bore had two tracks, and the southern bore had 1. Today, conrail uses the northern bore only. They enlarged the bore around 1994 and have two tracks in it. The southern bore is used for access vehicles. Before the tunnel enlargement, they might have had 1 track in each bore - I don't know. Today, there is a universal two track interlocking at TUNNEL, and nothing at SPRUCE. >> John, is correct. There were only three tracks at SPRUCE with two in the northern bore and one in the southern bore. If i recall correctly PC reduced this to two tracks following hurricane Agnes when several of the bridges across the the stream were damaged. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: FOM decals Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 12:02:04 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1405 On 2/10/98 10:43 PM, Roger Elliott (relliott@mail.telis.org) wrote: >I was wondering if I could get copies of how each of the passenger cars >was striped and lettered. Rail Graphics can make stripes in N-scale and >I might be able to produce a master using Adobe Pagemaker. The only >really hard part would be the decal around the windows. Perhaps a >couple of "brackets" like this ( ) and then straight stripes. For the >four stripes they could be on one strip of film. I would have to be >real precise about the mask for the Maroon "windows" obviously. What do >you think? I don't know yet if Middle Division Decals will be doing N scale or not. The part around the windows is the part that has stymied our efforts on this list over the past two years. We have discussed the matter at great length several times. As for painting/striping plans, get a copy of Tilp & Blardone's "Pennsylvania Railroad Guide to Passenger Car Painting and Lettering" available from the PRRT&HS. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:07:44 EST Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) Content-Length: 1179 In a message dated 98-02-11 11:16:56 EST, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << "Jaybirds"and "Q's" hauling "paydirt". S-1&2 and T-1's hauling varnish "at SPEED". Lima transfer units along side AS-616's on the mineral run. And a photographer by the name of J.J. Young Jr. creeping around in the Ohio Valley fog. The odd-ball good riding B-28's and L-2's working the Pan Handle. Sharks, Sharks and more Sharks. We Lines West boys always hang together!!!! Watching from Lines way out West! >> The problem is the material hasn't surfaced if it exists. With the exception of a few articles by Jim Lynch in the Keystone, published material about the Lines West has been scarce. Generally, the material is scarce. Undoubtedly, there is a market for Lines WEst material if it exists. There is a drastic need for searches of sources in Ft. Wayne, Columbus, ST. Louis and other points. The material must be out there somewhere. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: Spruce Creek Tunnels Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:01:26 -0800 Content-Length: 2033 > ---------- > From: Hal6963@aol.com[SMTP:Hal6963@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 3:15 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels > > In a message dated 98-02-10 17:58:48 EST, John Cooper wrote: > > > There seems to be some confusion about how many tracks there are. 1950 > > track charts show three tracks from FORGE (Tyronne) to TUNNEL (one mile > east > > of bores). SPRUCE therefore had three tracks. The northern bore had > two > > tracks, and the southern bore had 1. Today, conrail uses the northern > bore > > only. They enlarged the bore around 1994 and have two tracks in it. > The > > southern bore is used for access vehicles. Before the tunnel > enlargement, > > they might have had 1 track in each bore - I don't know. Today, there > is a > > universal two track interlocking at TUNNEL, and nothing at SPRUCE. > > > Everything John says may be true for 1950, however, the 1906 post card > shows 4 > tracks, 2 in each bore, locomotives and rolling stock being smaller then. > The > time period I am modeling is 1916 so any research I do is based on what > existed then. > I don't know how to explain away this discrepancy. I won't dispute your photographic evidence to the contrary, but it seems odd to me that the southern bore carried two tracks in 1906, and only 1 in 1950. I saw the western portals just three weeks ago out the back of the train, and I can confirm that the bore that is there today is only wide enough for one track. John > Harold R. McGee, SPF > Gainesville, FL > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:23:41 EST Subject: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar Content-Length: 686 I picked up three of the new Fine N-Scale Pennsy X-29 express boxcars today... very nice model, but here's my question: The instructions call for the use of "boxcar red paint with a little orange" But weren't the the PRR X-29s assigned to express duty painted in railway express green??? I've seen prototype photos but the cars are all so grimy its hard to tell... And if they were green, did the PRR run any in red or were they all green? J.P. Alexandria, VA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: PRR Branch line spin-offs/sales pre-PC Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:21:17 -0000 Content-Length: 859 In a recent post, there was discussion of the sale of the Sandusky line to the N&W-Nickel Plate-Wabash. Before that sale to the N&W, were there many sales of lines or spin-offs to new railroads? I'm not talking about abandonments or transfers to subsidiaries, but actual changes in ownership... Are spin-offs and line sales a purely post-PRR (PC & CR) phenomenon? Was this because of the regulatory atmosphere, or was it something the PRR just didn't want to do? I wonder how much of the railroad's ill financial health at the end was the result of holding on to unprofitable branches... Just a thought, Jim wjhudson@erols.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Beauty of a map! Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 19:28:38 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1663 I just posted a beauty of a map to my maps page (http://prr.dsop.com/maps). Look under the Philadelphia Terminal Division section. I purchased a 1954 Philadelphia Terminal Division Employee Timetable on eBay ($12, I think). I am collecting only '54 stuff, as that is my modeling timeframe. I kinda tossed it aside, to look at later. However, Dave Wartel stopped by last weekend to share a ride to the Timonium Show. Since he is interested in the PTD, I pulled it out. Lo and behold, in the back, where the owner glued in additional orders (common practice), was "General Order No. 805, Zone C". "Okay, so what the heck is that?" you might ask. Well....it's the general order for special movement of passenger traffic to Municipal Stadium in Philadelphia for one day only -- Nov. 27, 1954 -- to the Army and Navy game! This is the scene that inspired the Grif Teller painting of all those GG-1s lined up! Anyway, the majority of this order is a map in A1 condition showing the locations of switches, signals, and information relevant to all the temporary facilities that were set up. The map has color coded signals for the direction of traffic (before and after the game). This is a "must see"! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Drye, John" Subject: HO Tower Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:55:42 -0500 Content-Length: 684 Does anyone know where I can find photograph's or drawings of HO Tower, near Horseheads, NY? I believe it stood at the junction of PRR's Elmira Branch and Erie's main north of Elmira. Was this tower operated by Pennsy or the Erie? Was it a "standard" PRR or Erie design? Thanks in advance for any help. I hope to scratchbuild an N-Scale version. An N-Scale model of an HO tower has a certain perverse appeal, don't you think? Thanks, John Drye ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: The End of the Fantasy--By Order of the Listmaster Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 20:32:49 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1182 I tried to be patient, understanding, and open to new ideas, even though the discussion of the "PRR of Today" was not of interest to me. However, the posts from those who are interested are becoming long, meaningless to many of us, and now I am receiving complaints from many subscribers who have been on the list for a long time. Stop these threads! Discussions of "What if the PRR still existed" are now banned from "PRR-Talk". It may take a few days for the last messages in transit to pass through. After that point I will axe subscriptions if this ruling is not abided by. Please cooperate. I honor your interests, but you'll have to either start your own list elsewhere or post to the MODELRR list (not recommended). Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:12:19 EST Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) Content-Length: 872 In a message dated 98-02-11 11:16:56 EST, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: >We Lines West boys always hang together!!!! I may be imagining this, but I don't think so. It seems as if the majority of authors and videomakers start with Sunnyside, and gradually move west, gradually "losing steam" as they do so. Could this be due to publication deadlines coming too quickly, thereby causing the skipping of Lines West material? Or is the material just less plentiful or harder to find? I would love to see a book which starts at E.St.Louis and gradually "runs out of steam" somewhere east of Pittsburgh! Rich Copeland---a born-and-bred Philadelphian. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:12:15 EST Subject: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) Content-Length: 1170 In a message dated 98-02-10 22:20:40 EST, dennis@bbn.com writes: > why >not posit Staggers taking place *before* PC (say, 1962), and >so avoid the massive bankruptcies that caused PC to happen? I've been staying out of this thread so far. But at this point I can't resist saying: Why not have a successful diesel locomotive invented in 1910? Then we probably wouldn't have to worry about doublestack clearances under catenary! There wouldn't have been any! Manhattan Transfer would still be a functional entity. Or the FL-9 would have come out wearing keystones instead of the familiar New Haven scheme. Keystones? Suppose Lines West had won, and become dominant. The famous logo might be consigned to an obscure corner of history! I'm with the gentleman who prefers to let history be history. (Gee, that sounds familiar....) But the comments in this thread have been very interesting. Rich Copeland Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:12:19 EST Subject: Re: A curious comment about the Broadway Content-Length: 641 In a message dated 98-02-11 13:24:27 EST, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: >If we take it off, we'll be seen as in the same class as the Erie or the Baltimore & >Ohio." Well, to paraphrase Churchill, the PRR "had much to be arrogant about"! I'm not surprised that ridership would have been extremely low at times during the Depression. I would imagine the Century experienced the same problems in 1935-36-37. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:27:55 EST Subject: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) Content-Length: 1507 The posting by Kevin Tulley included the following statements: >The open top bilevel autorack has been replaced by huge >enclosed trilevel monstrous contraptions. >What used to be trailer on >flatcar has turned into the billion dollar industry of double stacks >sitting over 21 feet to the top of a decently stacked car. A correction is needed to the above two statements. The tri-level has not replaced the bi-level. Certainly all auto racks are fully enclosed. At TTX, there is a higher volume of bi-level racks being applied to our cars by the railroads and very few tri-levels. The reason is simple: Consumers want Sports Utility Vehicles and small pick-ups. The latest version of the autorack is the 420 articulated bi-levels being built by Thrall Car at Winder, GA. The highest auto racks are the 20'2" tri-levels with the intitials TTQX. The TOFC traffic has certainly not grown at the rate it did in the PRR days because much of that traffic is, as was stated, is now going on double stacks. But, there is still a very strong market for TOFC even though it goes mostly on articulated spine cars and not the old 85'-89'4" flats of the PRR era. A visit to the PRR mainline today will result in seeing much TOFC traffic, especially on the mail trains. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Pgh Chapter Meeting Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:10:58 -0500 Content-Length: 957 Just a short note on short notice! The next meeting of the Pittsburgh Chapter of PRRT&HS will be held on Friday, Feb 20, 1998, at Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, Monroeville, PA, at 7:30 PM. The meeting is free and open to the public Good Shephard Lutheran Church is 1 block North of Exit 6 of the PA Turnpike. Directions follow: Get off the Turnpike going toward Monroeville (West). Turn right (North) at the first traffic signal, at the US Route 22 / PA Route 48. Go 1 block to the next traffic signal at Old William Penn Highway (OWPH). Cross OWPH and immediately turn right into the Church parking lot. If OWPH runs East and West, the Church is on the Northeast corner. Carl P. Izzo, Pres. Pittsburgh Chapter PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:54:24 EST Subject: Re: Re: Grays Ferry Branch (fwd) Content-Length: 1720 To those folks who have been speculating about the Grays Ferry Branch in the Philadelphia Terminal Division. I would recommend the following reading list to gain some understanding of how the PRR was laid out in the city of Philadelphia. First: Go the AAA and get a FREE map of the City of Philadelphia. This is a must. Second: The Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS has two wonderful articles in the High Line that will assist in the quest. Author Bob Penrose two part article, Autumn 1988 Vol.9 No.1 and Winter-Spring Vol. 9 No. 2&3 on the Delaware Ave. Branch . This contains early data on the PRR development in Philadelphia with good maps for illustration, A third issue of the High Line, John J. Kilbride, Jr. Article Autum-Winter 1989, Vol. 10 No. 1&2 on the Army Navy games has a map from the collection of Andrew J. Hart page 7 that helps understand the "plant" in Philadelphia. Third: Again from the Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS they issued a two part magazine piece on the PRR's "Philadelphia Improvements" projects. Reprinted September 1987. This fine article explains the PRR's development in the Philadelphia Terminal Division and has maps and illustrations to support the copy. All worth while reading and these issues are available from the Philadelphia Chapter. Please contact them and tell them you heard about it on the Internet. Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS PO BOX 663 Wayne, PA. 19087-0663 Attn:Phil O. Ritter/VP Cheers Brad C. Bower ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: ENOUGH!!!!! (WAS:Re: post-1968 PRR (long) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:48:13 PST Content-Length: 792 >The posting by Kevin Tulley included the following statements: > >>The open top bilevel autorack has been replaced by huge >>enclosed trilevel monstrous contraptions. > >>What used to be trailer on >>flatcar has turned into the billion dollar industry of double stacks >>sitting over 21 feet to the top of a decently stacked car. The statement above is INCORRECT. This was included in a reply, and was not ORIGINALLY posted my me. Kevin J. Tully ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: ENOUGH 2!!!!!! (WAS:Re: Fantasy PRR (long) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:57:32 PST Content-Length: 3127 >Doug Drew wrote: >> I don't know, I guess it must be me. > >No, it's me, too. > >Yea! > >> I would appreciate some sort of flag about these PRR-fantasies in the >> headers of subsequent messages, where history is being changed to fit >> someone's "dream PRR", or imaginary roster or equipment information is being put forth as if it were fact. Otherwise, the PRR-list risks turning into some kind of fantasy railroad discussion group >> Often, it's difficult enough in determining the truth about the Pennsy, as> it really existed. > > >Time to cast my vote, Doug, and I'm with you. Sorry to be raining on >people's parades, but I honestly think it's time to simply say the >truth: This has gotten out of hand. When I log on and find 41 messages, >half or more of which are posts of this nature, it strains the >boundaries. > >Jerry, I do second the knighthood sentiment that Doug has offered, and >you know that others and I have expressed appreciation before for your >good, and mostly thankless, work. But IMHO, you have, while trying to be >democratic and let everyone have a say -- however frequently and however >distantly connected to the factual, actual, PRR it may be -- the list >has lost interest for me. I don't dislike or wish to dishonor the folks >who enjoy doing this, but I do dislike having to take the time to >tediously delete a high percentage of posts. > > >Dan Cupper > > > > fantasy PRR enthusiasts, to keep fiction separated from fact. ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've just about had it with the "peoples" comments! If you're going to talk about the Modern PRR group, namely me, then at least have the intestinal fortitude to say my name. By the way, it's spelled: K E V I N. Not KEVEN. It seems to me that some "people" are so consumed by "their" dislike of the Project they can't even pay enough attention to spell the persons name they're attacking correctly. As for the comment about recieving 40 messages and having to go through them and "tediously" delete the ones you don't what to look at, give me a break. It takes me all of about 30 seconds to delete all the stuff that doesn't interest me. Like I said before, if you don't want to watch it, turn the channel! --- Jerry, I don't hold you responsible for the comments made on your site. It's to bad the some of the members don't have enough to keep them busy that they'll sit and type out a "hate" post (taking more time than it would to "tediously" delete the posts they're attacking). It really saddens me to see that a great forum like this one is no different than the several clubs I've belonged to over the years. They all seem to have someone that just has to "rain" on someone else's good time. Signed, Kevin J. Tully ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:57:46 EST Subject: Re: Tidbits (fwd) REPLY Content-Length: 954 In a message dated 98-02-11 10:22:43 EST, lpmorgan@iquest.net REPLYS: << Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > > We Lines West people have to stick together. > > Randy We know of the interest in the Eastern Origin areas. I have some interest in the Mountain division myself. Most writers do not appear to realize it was LINES WEST that made the PRR a great railroad rather than just a regional carrier. -- >> Larry, AMEN, And Rich you are right we need more information, that is why I have made a quest of finding JJ Young Jr., perhaps he can share his knowledge with us just as Don Wood and Don Ball Jr. did. I would be happy with an article or two in Mainline Modeler. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:21:20 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: ENOUGH 2!!!!!! (WAS:Re: Fantasy PRR (long) Content-Length: 1549 Greetings to the list: First, can we have a little chilling out here? Second, Kevin Tully, it wasn't I who misspelled your name, so *please* take care to aim your flames in the right direction. Third, in my post, I didn't use names for a very precise reason: I wanted to avoid steering the thread into a personality issue. Fourth, you've enjoyed the "freedom of speech" to do and say as you've pleased on the list for quite some time. When I exercised exactly the same privilege and offer an opinion about this thread just *once,* you went nuclear. Why? Freedom of discussion is what these lists are about. In the words of my teenage sons, let's all chill out, dude. We're all in this for the best interest of everyone. Over the last year and a half that I've subscribed, Jerry has blown the whistle on a couple of cases where the thread went seriously astray (remember the patriotism/why we can't accomplish big things anymore thread?). When narrowly defined interests begin to dominate, it does -- like it or not -- impinge on the viability of the whole. Suppose a couple of guys decided that they were enthralled by Q2 steam engines and flooded the list with posts about nothing else. I do think we'd get tired of that, too. Sorry for the additional rain. More may be in the forecast. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:28:18 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 1015 Rich Orr wrote: There were only three tracks at SPRUCE with two in the > northern bore and one in the southern bore. If i recall correctly PC reduced > this to two tracks following hurricane Agnes when several of the bridges > across the the stream were damaged. Originally there were four tracks, as Mike Bezilla wrote. I can't vouch for the chronology of when three tracks existed, but I visited the tower operator at Spruce in the spring of 1971 and there were only two tracks east of Spruce to Tunnel then (one track in each tunnel) -- and that was a year before Tropical Storm Agnes. There were three tracks west of Spruce tower at that time, and three tracks east of Tunnel interlocking, so the operator's job was to preside over the double 3-to-2/2-to-3 transitions. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 04:14:24 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Fwd: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar Content-Length: 1684 ---Jpk815@aol.com wrote: > But weren't the the PRR X-29s assigned to express duty painted in railway > express green??? If any were green, I didn't see them in ten years of living 100 feet from the main line in Latrobe PA. Yes, many were dirty enough that it was hard to make out what color they were, but I never saw a clean one which wasn't red. Remember too that the Pullman Company painted their sleepers Pullman Green, except for those assigned to PRR. Those were painted to match the PRR coaches, diners, etc. In those days, the PRR had enough clout to say "our way or no way". During WWII there were green Pullmans in PRR trains, but during WWII, anything with wheels was likely to show up almost anywhere. Even saw some B&LE locomotives working trains through Latrobe. The N&W and Virginian 6-axle coal gondolas which "never left home rails" ran in solid trains on the main line moving coal to Pittsburgh. Granted, after the war REA had a number of box-type express reefers built, which were green, and many of these were used in PRR trains. But they were not X-29's > > I've seen prototype photos but the cars are all so grimy its hard to tell... > And if they were green, did the PRR run any in red or were they all green? > > J.P. > Alexandria, VA Bob Netzlof _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:44:24 EST Subject: Re: WAY OUT WEST Content-Length: 919 Dick, Shame on me, those N's hauling the whole yard in from Akron on the Baird Branch to Mingo Junction. Your right, and yes the back bones of the fleets those little H's that would slug away at a train until hell won't have 'um. Any how about the College Football specials that ran all around the Ohio Valley. Remember we had Lou Holts (also my parents paperboy) and Disco Joe Namath. And how about names like the GREEN ARROW and the SPIRIT of ST. LOUIS. God Bless 'um all, the memories of listening for trains on my grandparents back porch, overlooking "the river" in East Liverpool, Ohio. Listening hard from LINES way out WEST (and sometimes hearing, I think) Greg Martin Salem, Or ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:31:12 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: RE: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 919 >I don't know how to explain away this discrepancy. I won't dispute your >photographic evidence to the contrary, but it seems odd to me that the >southern bore carried two tracks in 1906, and only 1 in 1950. I saw the >western portals just three weeks ago out the back of the train, and I can >confirm that the bore that is there today is only wide enough for one track. Tunnels can be deceiving but it really did have two tracks for many years. Maybe someone has can confirm this but I have heard from old PRR hands that the south bore was reduced to 1 track because of increased locomotive dimensions. Some say it was the coming of the M1, some say it was later with the T1 & Q2. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:42:16 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: A Washington wreck Content-Length: 542 Just as a final sequel to the 1953 runaway, when they were rebuilding Union Station into its present form (and removing the ill-fated Visitors Center) I heard from one of the civil engineers working on it that they found evidence of the repairs that had to be done when the GG1 motor crashed into the basement. John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:04:42 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar Content-Length: 1667 >I picked up three of the new Fine N-Scale Pennsy X-29 express boxcars today... >very nice model, but here's my question: The instructions call for the use of >"boxcar red paint with a little orange" > >But weren't the the PRR X-29s assigned to express duty painted in railway >express green??? NOPE! As far as can be told, they were all "red". If you look very carefully at some of those cars which appear to be REA Green, you can see where the grime has been worn off behind grab irons and teh red shows through. There are a couple of good pictures to this effect in Color Guide...1 and 2. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:08:41 EST Subject: Re: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar Content-Length: 911 In a message dated 98-02-12 02:47:03 EST, JP writes: << But weren't the the PRR X-29s assigned to express duty painted in railway express green??? >> No. They were standard freight car color. The reason the express X29 cars are particularly dirty is that they were traveling at higher speeds than their freight counterparts. Based upon Bernoulli's principle, they sucked up more dirt. And neither went through a car washer. BTW, I know I will probably have to eat these words since there is a prototype for everything, but the kazillion REA green 40 foot boxcars that have been produced by the model railroad industry have no prototype in fact, to my knowledge. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:19:42 EST Subject: Re: A curious comment about the Broadway Content-Length: 787 In a message dated 98-02-12 08:48:06 EST, Rich Copeland writes: << Well, to paraphrase Churchill, the PRR "had much to be arrogant about"! I'm not surprised that ridership would have been extremely low at times during the Depression. I would imagine the Century experienced the same problems in 1935-36-37. >> I am biased as much in favor of keystones and tuscan red as anyone on this list, but let's face it. The Century ran in as many as seven sections (not during the Depression, I grant) . They were the market leader in NY-Chicago traffic. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 12 Feb 98 09:25:04 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: A curious comment about the Broadway Content-Length: 3636 --====54515150505053515657===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Difficult to believe that patronage on the Broadway would have been only a couple of people entraining in New York, even in the Depression. Businesses were still functioning, even though 25-30% of the country was out of work, and the Broadway was a business travelers' train. What (real) alternatives did the overnight business traveler have -- a white-knuckle trip over the Alleghenies in a Tin Goose? Or was everyone traveling coach, sitting up all night in a P70 in order to save travel dollars? Bob Boyd, what is your source of this information? PRRMAN wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-11 13:24:27 EST, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: > >>If we take it off, we'll be seen as in the same class as the Erie or the >Baltimore & >Ohio." >Well, to paraphrase Churchill, the PRR "had much to be arrogant about"! >I'm not surprised that ridership would have been extremely low at times >during the Depression. I would imagine the Century experienced the >same problems in 1935-36-37. > >Rich Copeland > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54515150505053515657===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Difficult to believe that patronage on the Broadway would have been only a couple of people entraining in New York, even in the Depression. Businesses were still functioning, even though 25-30% of the country was out of work, and the Broadway was a business travelers' train. What (real) alternatives did the overnight business traveler have -- a white-knuckle trip over the Alleghenies in a Tin Goose? Or was everyone traveling coach, sitting up all night in a P70 in order to save travel dollars?

Bob Boyd, what is your source of this information?

PRRMAN wrote:
>In a message dated 98-02-11 13:24:27 EST, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes:
>
>>If we take it off, we'll be seen as in the same class as the Erie or the
>Baltimore & >Ohio."
>Well, to paraphrase Churchill, the PRR "had much to be arrogant about"!
>I'm not surprised that ridership would have been extremely low at times
>during the Depression. I would imagine the Century experienced the
>same problems in 1935-36-37.
>
>Rich Copeland
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54515150505053515657===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:36:07 +0000 Subject: Modern PRR and Disenchantment From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1264 Hello to all, I am one of those fellows who is on this list and working on the Modern PRR project. I must express utter shame and dissatisfaction at these attitudes. There is room in this hobby for all. I Wish you would give me the same appreciation and considration that you might give to such greats as Allen McClelland and his Virginian and Ohio or Tony Koester and his Allegany Midland. We are doing the same as these two have done--just taking it a step further and applying what these men have done to something that WAS real. I am appalled and ashamed at the way I feel I am being treated. Possibly no harm was meant. Hope all of you feel better. I will find you elsewhere for thoughts as mine though. Thanks and I enjoyed the ride. Jeremy Helms Totally dissenchanted :-( _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:39:54 +0000 Subject: Apology From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 686 Hello all, I apologize for my previous post being after Jerry's request to stop all traffic on the subject. I do wish you would take into consideration however what was posted. This shall be my final post. Jeremy Helms _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pgh Chapter Meeting Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 10:13:27 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1006 On 2/11/98 11:10 PM, Carl Izzo (CPIZZO@worldnet.att.net) wrote: >The next meeting of the Pittsburgh Chapter of PRRT&HS will be held on >Friday, Feb 20, 1998, at Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, Monroeville, PA, at >7:30 PM. The meeting is free and open to the public Thanks for the info Carl! The "Lines West" contingent is always looking for more activity. Pittsburgh is about as far west as any major activity seems to get. Yet, they thought the Pburgh chapter was all but dead. Your notice of the meeting will give many the chance to hop on I-76 and head east a few hours...within reason! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:42:39 -0500 Content-Length: 1442 I think a better match would be a 50 / 50 mix of boxcar red and oxide red. The X-29s in this service were painted standard freight car color but because of the grime they would pick up along the way, some of them appeared to be express green. A picture in one of the color guides shows an X-29 in this condition. Joe ---------- > From: Jpk815@aol.com > To: n-scale@lists.Stanford.EDU > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar > Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 2:23 PM > > I picked up three of the new Fine N-Scale Pennsy X-29 express boxcars today... > very nice model, but here's my question: The instructions call for the use of > "boxcar red paint with a little orange" > > But weren't the the PRR X-29s assigned to express duty painted in railway > express green??? > > I've seen prototype photos but the cars are all so grimy its hard to tell... > And if they were green, did the PRR run any in red or were they all green? > > J.P. > Alexandria, VA > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: HO Tower Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:49:15 -0500 Content-Length: 1234 On page 69 of Caloroso's book, the PRR's Elmira branch is a picture of HO tower. It also lists the tower as being owned by the Erie. Joe ---------- > From: Drye, John > To: 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: HO Tower > Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 7:55 PM > > > Does anyone know where I can find photograph's or drawings of HO Tower, > near Horseheads, NY? > I believe it stood at the junction of PRR's Elmira Branch and Erie's > main north of Elmira. Was this tower operated by Pennsy or the Erie? > Was it a "standard" PRR or Erie design? > > Thanks in advance for any help. I hope to scratchbuild an N-Scale > version. An N-Scale model of an HO tower has a certain perverse appeal, > don't you think? > > Thanks, > > John Drye > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:50:45 -0600 Subject: Re: Tidbits (long) Content-Length: 673 Dan, I appreciate your candid response. After I wrote that little blurb I got to thinking (open mouth before engaging brain) that is very true that there just is not much out there in information. I brought an item up with Jerry Britton a while back on why is there not PRRH&TS convention west of Pittsburgh and his response is there is not interest by any of the chapters. I never realized there were any chapters west of Pittsburgh. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: LISTMASTER FINAL WARNING.... Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 11:19:09 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 869 People are still rebuffing Kevin and his "Fantasy PRR" thread. I have made notice that I want this and future related threads off this list. I have threatened to axe subscriptions if people do not abide by this. New posts are still being made on this topic. I am watching the headers for the posting times. I will begin deleting subscriptions without warning. Those who are "axed" will be permanently off the list. Behave, children, or be sent to your rooms! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:47:39 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Tidbits (long) Content-Length: 4996 Rich Copeland wrote: > > It seems as if the majority of authors and videomakers start with Sunnyside, > and gradually move west, gradually "losing steam" as they do so. > Could this be due to publication deadlines coming too quickly, > thereby causing the skipping of Lines West material? Or is > the material just less plentiful or harder to find? I would love > to see a book which starts at E.St.Louis and gradually "runs out > of steam" somewhere east of Pittsburgh! Rich, it happens for a couple of reasons. One is availability of material. Think about the relative number of railfans/historians/photographers who were interested and active in gathering source material in each location. The populaton density is greater in the Northeast so there's naturally a greater pool of people who will, by the law of natural distribution, be interested in railroading. It's the same reason big mega-high school sports teams don't compete with tiny high school sports teams -- more population = more talent (not necessarily greater talent, but far more of it). Another reason is density of traffic, which translates to number of trains photographable in daylight hours, number of railroad employees who keep their logbooks and employees' timetables and other collaterals (and are available for interviews or living-history taping sessions), etc. In every way, the Northeast generates more of everything, so there's more raw material to start with. Third is the issue of a big fish getting lost in an even bigger pond. Pennsy was the dominant, and sometimes only, game in town in most of its eastern territory. Think about PRR's market dominance of Pittsburgh -- i.e., preventing the B&O from entering town for 30 years; monopolizing freight traffic severely enough to cause Carnegie & Vanderbilt to conspire to build the South Pennsylvania; and so on. But in Indianapolis, Detroit, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Chicago, or, most of all, St. Louis, it was just one of many railroads, and not the dominant one at all. In fact, in many places in the Midwest, there was no *single* dominant player. The double-track PRR (PFtW&C) main at Lima was not all that different in appearance or carrying capacity from the B&O at Deshler, the Illinois Central at Effingham, the Erie at North Judson, the NYC at South Bend. A fourth, and less important, issue is the distinctiveness of the equipment and facilities. By the mid-1900s, Lines West equipment looked pretty much like the rest of the system except for having locomotive numbers grouped in certain blocks. But the GG1, well, you weren't going to find something that distinctive anywhere else but the Northeast. Think architecturally, as well. Penn Station in New York was PRR's grand statement about itself and its importance. So were Broad Street and 30th Street in Philadelphia. In Washington, PRR was half owner of Washington Union Station. But in most Lines West cities, PRR used union stations that were controlled by a larger number of co-owners and PRR was, as noted above, one of many players. Fifth is the marketplace. Having worked with several publishers, I can say that even what most railfan buyers would consider to be a modest softcover book selling for $18.95 requires an initial capital outlay of $40,000 to $60,000. A publisher becomes an investor the instant he chooses the topic of a new book project. Given the choice of a sure seller or an unknown seller, what would you do if you had that much of your own money on the line? It's one of the reasons you don't see much about New England railroading -- publishers have come to know that one of the quirks of the railroad marketplace is that (sorry if I'm stepping on toes here, but it's true) the New England railfan is cheap. Even though there's a large population (Boston, Providence, Albany-on-the-edge, all of Connecticut, all of Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine), historically, books about that region have not sold well, or at least far more weakly than titles from other areas. So publishers have learned not to knock themselves out to cover New England. By contrast, certain railroads and topics are always going to do well. These are generally known -- PRR, UP, Santa Fe are sure things, and to a lesser degree, NYC and SP. I'm firmly convinced that you do a book about all of the varieties of PRR trash cans or manhole covers, and people would buy it. There *is* a *great* shortage of published information about PRR Lines West culture and operations -- it's certainly a great mystery to someone like me who has lived almost all of his life in Pennsylvania. Well, thanks for being patient to read all this; that's my $.02 worth. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 91 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:18:05 EST Content-Length: 963 > Originally there were four tracks, as Mike Bezilla wrote. I can't vouch > for the chronology of when three tracks existed, but I visited the tower > operator at Spruce in the spring of 1971 My, my. I was barely out of diapers ... :-) :-) > and there were only two tracks > east of Spruce to Tunnel then (one track in each tunnel) -- and that was > a year before Tropical Storm Agnes. There were three tracks west of > Spruce tower at that time, and three tracks east of Tunnel interlocking, > so the operator's job was to preside over the double 3-to-2/2-to-3 > transitions. Right. This goes along with what I had heard, which was that the single track per tunnel was done to allow TrucTrain traffic & other high stuff. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:25:25 EST Content-Length: 2012 > > Everything John says may be true for 1950, however, the 1906 post card > > shows 4 > > tracks, 2 in each bore, locomotives and rolling stock being smaller then. > > The > > time period I am modeling is 1916 so any research I do is based on what > > existed then. > > > I don't know how to explain away this discrepancy. I won't dispute your > photographic evidence to the contrary, but it seems odd to me that the > southern bore carried two tracks in 1906, and only 1 in 1950. I saw the > western portals just three weeks ago out the back of the train, and I can > confirm that the bore that is there today is only wide enough for one track. How to explain away: smaller loading gauge in 1906. John, I spent a few (make that quite a few) minutes _very_ near to the tunnels. My recollection is that the (original) bores were the same size. Remember you were comparing, from your trip, a modern, greatly enlarged, rounded-square-shaped nothern bore with the round southern bore. Now, that being said, ever since I've been to SPRUCE (1983 and +), the southern bore, just in from the western portal, has had some sort of steel thing hanging down from the southern 'ceiling', with vertical and horizontal members forming an "L" shape as you look at it from the portal. The bricks and rock in that area are irregular, suggesting to this amateur geologist that the rock was/became/is unstable in that spot, and that this grillwork was put in to shore up the tunnel. The vertical member of the "L" is so positioned that presently it would be difficult to impossible to get 2 tracks in, even for normal-sized boxcars. For what it's worth. So the single track in the sothern bore may have been more out of necessity than desire for greater clearance. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Departing Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:57:43 PST Content-Length: 1172 To the group, I just thought you should know, I've decided to stand with Jeremy Helms in un-subscribing to the PRR-Talk group. Anyone interested in corresponding with me via email is welcome. I will continue my research into the PRR Railway Operating Battalion, as well as PRR operations during WWII and the Modern PRR Project. I should have pages on my web site involved with these subjects, as well as the NMRA Private Road Name SIG. For those interested, please check my site every so often. Thank you for the services the members of this group have provided me in my research involving the PRR ROB. No Departing, Track 29................. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" A Division Of The PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CORP. http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:14:08 EST Subject: ENOUGH 2!!!!!! Content-Length: 639 Hi PRR fans, As one who really enjoys this listing and all that Jerry does to make it possible, I would like to put my two cents in. I think Dan Cupper's comments are right on the money. The great PRR has plenty of REAL subjects to interest us all. Lets not reduce the value by adding fantansy comments which at best are boreing to most. Thanks to all, Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:16:08 EST Subject: Prrmo Turnouts Content-Length: 584 To all, Since we of the PRRMO have decided on on #6 or #8 turnouts, I'm offering to scan in the official PRR tracings of those turnouts and crossoover as shown the "(57) Pennsylvania Railroad Standard Maintenance of the Way Plans" book and will e-mail as file attachments to all who are interested. Please include preferred graphics format when responding. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:22:11 EST Subject: Derrick, where are you Content-Length: 347 To Derrick B. and the rest of the list. I've lost Derrick's e-mail address. Can somebody please e-mail it to me? Thanks, Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:14:37 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: The End of the Fantasy--By Order of the Listmaster Content-Length: 979 Hi All, I have a suggestion that may help us all become one happy SPF family again. I belong to a modeling group that keeps in contact via a self-administered list. This is not based on any server anywhere but rather is maintained by each member in their mail program. Each member has set up a distribution list in their mail program that contains the e-mail addresses of the other members. This works best if the group isn't too large (ours has about 2 dozen members currently. Most mail programs that I've seen have the capablity to set up mailing lists easily. Perhaps this method would work well for the Future PRR group? If you have questions regarding this please feel free to mail me OFF-LIST. Thanks and hope this is helpful. 'Nuff said. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:44:08 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 784 To reiterate, these tunnels were built in the late 1800s and early 1900s when equipment was clearly smaller, in addition the 1906 postcard clearly shows 4 tracks. >From the standpoint of a module probably 4 tracks should be used for consistancy with other modules. For those modeling the Spruce Creek area on their own layouts they probably should be true to era modeled. Those of us considering a module for PRRMO should probably move that discussion to the PRRMO web page so we don't bore those not interested in the subject. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 12 Feb 98 12:33:52 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: PRR Branch line spin-offs/sales pre-PC Content-Length: 4593 --====50525054515151515048===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I can't think of any PRR line sales to other railroads, predating the N&W/NKP/Wabash merger. I think Pennsy only parted with the Sandusky line because they were so anxious to have their own merger with NYC approved, and because N&W had no direct connection with NKP or Wabash. I think the sale of the Sandusky line was with the understanding that the new N&W wouldn't contest the PC merger. The N&W/NKP/Wabash/P&WV merger and the C&O/B&O/WM combine essentially forced NYC to merge with the Pennsy, as all other potential eastern merger partners (E-L, CNJ, RDG, LV) were either bankrupt or otherwise undesireable. Did PRR sell its line from Logansport to Effner (? -- not sure of the interchange here) to the TP&W, before PRR merged with NYC? -- Doug Drew W. Jim Hudson wrote: >In a recent post, there was discussion of the sale of the Sandusky line to >the N&W-Nickel Plate-Wabash. Before that sale to the N&W, were there many >sales of lines or spin-offs to new railroads? I'm not talking about >abandonments or transfers to subsidiaries, but actual changes in >ownership... > >Are spin-offs and line sales a purely post-PRR (PC & CR) phenomenon? Was >this because of the regulatory atmosphere, or was it something the PRR just >didn't want to do? I wonder how much of the railroad's ill financial health >at the end was the result of holding on to unprofitable branches... > >Just a thought, >Jim >wjhudson@erols.com > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====50525054515151515048===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't think of any PRR line sales to other railroads, predating the N&W/NKP/Wabash merger.
I think Pennsy only parted with the Sandusky line because they were so anxious to have their own merger with NYC approved, and because N&W had no direct connection with NKP or Wabash. I think the sale of the Sandusky line was with the understanding that the new N&W wouldn't contest the PC merger. The N&W/NKP/Wabash/P&WV merger and the C&O/B&O/WM combine essentially forced NYC to merge with the Pennsy, as all other potential eastern merger partners (E-L, CNJ, RDG, LV) were either bankrupt or otherwise undesireable.
Did PRR sell its line from Logansport to Effner (? -- not sure of the interchange here) to the TP&W, before PRR merged with NYC?
-- Doug Drew

W. Jim Hudson wrote:
>In a recent post, there was discussion of the sale of the Sandusky line to
>the N&W-Nickel Plate-Wabash. Before that sale to the N&W, were there many
>sales of lines or spin-offs to new railroads? I'm not talking about
>abandonments or transfers to subsidiaries, but actual changes in
>ownership...
>
>Are spin-offs and line sales a purely post-PRR (PC & CR) phenomenon? Was
>this because of the regulatory atmosphere, or was it something the PRR just
>didn't want to do? I wonder how much of the railroad's ill financial health
>at the end was the result of holding on to unprofitable branches...
>
>Just a thought,
>Jim
>wjhudson@erols.com
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====50525054515151515048===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:01:27 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: X-29 express cars Content-Length: 626 > The instructions call for the use of > "boxcar red paint with a little orange" > > But weren't the the PRR X-29s assigned to express duty painted in railway > express green??? No. All these cars were painted as the instructions call for (Freight car color). > > > I've seen prototype photos but the cars are all so grimy its hard to tell... sounds like the Pennsy... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 12 Feb 98 13:05:57 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 5463 --====48574850575450565451===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Re: double track not fitting the Spruce Creek tunnels: People tend to think in 1990's terms about the sizes of railroad equipment. In the steam era, everything was a much smaller "loading gauge", as the Brits say, particularly in height. Remember the NYC's fat-boilered Niagaras, with their "mini-stacks" so to clear all the low bridges on its lines? B&O's EM-1's had instructions to fold back the glass windscreens aside the cabs when passing through its West End tunnels, the clearances were so tight for those engines. I assume that most all railroads' cars of the day could fit those same tight NYC/B&O mainline clearances that put those restrictions on locomotives of the day. Many tunnels that once were double track seem barely able to fit a single track, with today's car heights. In my vicinity, Hoosac Tunnel is having its ceiling raised/floor lowered (depending on whether brick lining is present or not) to accommodate double stacks, courtesy of Norfolk Southern. This tunnel, too, once hosted a double track main line, with electrification, no less. -- Doug Drew Dan Cupper wrote: >Rich Orr wrote: > There were only three tracks at SPRUCE with two in the >> northern bore and one in the southern bore. If i recall correctly PC >reduced > this to two tracks following hurricane Agnes when several of the bridges > >across the the stream were damaged. > >Originally there were four tracks, as Mike Bezilla wrote. I can't vouch >for the chronology of when three tracks existed, but I visited the tower >operator at Spruce in the spring of 1971 and there were only two tracks >east of Spruce to Tunnel then (one track in each tunnel) -- and that was >a year before Tropical Storm Agnes. There were three tracks west of >Spruce tower at that time, and three tracks east of Tunnel interlocking, >so the operator's job was to preside over the double 3-to-2/2-to-3 >transitions. > > >Dan Cupper > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48574850575450565451===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: double track not fitting the Spruce Creek tunnels:
People tend to think in 1990's terms about the sizes of railroad equipment. In the steam era, everything was a much smaller "loading gauge", as the Brits say, particularly in height. Remember the NYC's fat-boilered Niagaras, with their "mini-stacks" so to clear all the low bridges on its lines? B&O's EM-1's had instructions to fold back the glass windscreens aside the cabs when passing through its West End tunnels, the clearances were so tight for those engines. I assume that most all railroads' cars of the day could fit those same tight NYC/B&O mainline clearances that put those restrictions on locomotives of the day. Many tunnels that once were double track seem barely able to fit a single track, with today's car heights. In my vicinity, Hoosac Tunnel is having its ceiling raised/floor lowered (depending on whether brick lining is present or not) to accommodate double stacks, courtesy of Norfolk Southern. This tunnel, too, once hosted a double track main line, with electrification, no less.
-- Doug Drew

Dan Cupper wrote:
>Rich Orr wrote:
> There were only three tracks at SPRUCE with two in the
>> northern bore and one in the southern bore. If i recall correctly PC
>reduced > this to two tracks following hurricane Agnes when several of the bridges >
>across the the stream were damaged.
>
>Originally there were four tracks, as Mike Bezilla wrote. I can't vouch
>for the chronology of when three tracks existed, but I visited the tower
>operator at Spruce in the spring of 1971 and there were only two tracks
>east of Spruce to Tunnel then (one track in each tunnel) -- and that was
>a year before Tropical Storm Agnes. There were three tracks west of
>Spruce tower at that time, and three tracks east of Tunnel interlocking,
>so the operator's job was to preside over the double 3-to-2/2-to-3
>transitions.
>
>
>Dan Cupper
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48574850575450565451===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:15:53 EST Subject: Chicago Division Operations 1950 Content-Length: 467 I know the answer for the branches, but was the mainline Timetable and Train Order operation for this division (or for that matter, the Ft. Wayne Division) in 1950? Did the Pennsy adopt CTC to any extent on Lines West? If so, about when? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:10:16 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: post-1968 (long) Content-Length: 1394 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) > From: PRRMAN@aol.com > Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:12:15 EST > > In a message dated 98-02-10 22:20:40 EST, dennis@bbn.com writes: > > > But at this point > I can't resist saying: Why not have a successful diesel locomotive > invented in 1910? Probably due to the fact that a sucessful diesel prime mover had not been invented in 1910. The sucessful development of a reasonably successful (and small enough to fit in a carbody) diesel engine came in the mid to late 1930's...as a direct result of the Navy's attempt to develop a suitable engine for submarine service. And, in 1910, the electrical state of the art was (in a word) crude. Look at how big the motor that was fitted to the DD-1 was. To make the entire package workable required a reliable engine, suitably small generators and traction motors (direct drive would not have been suitable to replace steam), and a workable multiple unit control circuitry. None of these existed at that time, and wouldn't exist until about a quarter of a century later. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:33:04 EST Subject: The PRR ended in 1968 Content-Length: 698 Greetings. As a new subscriber to the PRR talk ,having been on line only 3-4 weeks but having been a PRR fan and modeler for at least the last 35 years, I was alarmed and disappointed at the modern PRR fantasy talk I recieved in my mail box. I subscribed to the PRR Talk but found some fanatsy modern PRR. I am glad that it has ended. I believe that it belongs on its own site not this one. Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: DCC or DC or Both Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:52:56 -0500 Content-Length: 282 Jerry, In regards to your DCC question. I favor DCC. Joe Zappa ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:08:37 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 856 Some say it was the coming of the M1, some say it was later > with the T1 & Q2. Mike: Remember that the Q2, like the J1, was prohibited on the Middle Division precisely because of the Spruce Creek tunnels, so it's unlikely that that class was the reason for the change. Kind of doubt that the M1 was the culprit or even the T1. The T1's clearance problems came on tight curves a la Horseshoe, on which the "six-fott" (PRR slang for the distance between parallel main line tracks) had to be widened there. My guesw is that, as in the 1990s, larger freight cars might have had something to do with it. Only a guess. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:22:26 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Phila. Chapt. Meeting Content-Length: 800 Greetings, The Philadelphia Chapter is having a meeting this Saturday, Feb. 14 (happy V-day) at it's usual venue; Drexel Hill Methodist Church [sorry, I don't know the address -- I'm on the west coast and haven't been to ameeting in about two years :-( ] Anyhow, if you can find the address, and I think the phone company can help there, the vendor tables open at 11:30 and the meeting starts at 1:00 PM. Members and visitors are welcome. BTW, the next meeting after this one is scheduled for Apr. 14 (same place & time), but should also have a PRR modelers' meeting. CF ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:31:34 EST Subject: RE:Phila Chapter Meeting Content-Length: 871 Just a note to the group Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS Meeting 2/14/98 Drexel Hill United Methodist Church, Drexel Hill, PA. 11:30 a.m. Modelers meeting:member Herb George will have a slide show on his PRR Long Island Division layout. Mr. George is the former chapter president. 12:30 PRR steam models will be displayed for judging for the second in a series of model contests Presentations to follow the business meeting are by President Frank Tatnall on "The Main Line's Linear Museum" and Alan Buchan, former PRR MOW employee, "Work Trains, Wreck Trains and Camp Cars". Please stop in and enjoy the PRR Cheers Brad C. Bower ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:37:19 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [N] PRR X-29 Content-Length: 1957 Drye, John wrote: > > The instructions are correct. PRR did paint thier express boxcars > boxcar red. Earlier (say before 1950, or so) the color had a definite > orange tint. Later, less so. > > The red presumably matches the tuscan passenger cars, but Pennsy made > little effort to keep the boxcars clean, especially in the late 50s and > 60s (when the majority of color photographs were taken). They can stand > some heavy weathering. > > The express boxcars used by REA were painted green. I'd have to do a > little research to find out how good a match the X-29 is. > > Pennsy also used thousands of X-29s in regular freight service, also > boxcar red. > > Hope this helps. > > John Drye > Registered SPF > > > > ************************************************* > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send the message body of > "unsubscribe n-scale" to majordomo@lists.stanford.edu John, Don't forget all the X-29's the Pennsy used in express mail service. They were sometimes run in long trains made up of the loco(s) the express mail cars, and a cabin; something like the long Pacific Fruit Express train movements. I don't know about those used in freight-type express service, but a lot of the mail express cars rode on Commonwealth BX express trucks. If memory serves me right, they were the type without the snubbers. For HO modeling, Athearn's express reefer truck would be one to consider using. The product number is 53308. They're not listed in the last couple of years worth of Walthers catalogs, but they still carry them (I just bought two dozen pairs) at $2.00/pr. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Tidbits (long) (fwd) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:26:45 EST Content-Length: 817 > I appreciate your candid response. After I wrote that little blurb I > got to thinking (open mouth before engaging brain) that is very true that > there just is not much out there in information. I brought an item up with > Jerry Britton a while back on why is there not PRRH&TS convention west of > Pittsburgh and his response is there is not interest by any of the > chapters. I never realized there were any chapters west of Pittsburgh. There used to be either 2 or 3. Lake (NE-central Ohio); ??Michigan; and California They've all been gone for at least 10 years. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:32:24 -0800 From: Sharon Edwards Subject: PRR future mess Content-Length: 1672 Dear List, I have only caught the edges of what ever caused the excitement concerning modeling the PRR as it might be had it survived. I have been a subscriber to many lists both recreational and professional, and have found this list to be one of the more mature concerning quality of content and respect for other subscribers. I am disappointed to see some of the responses concerning Mr Tully's fantasy modeling, as almost anyone who models is fantasizing to some degree anyway. Modelers have the latitude to create their own piece of utopia as they see fit, and I don't see that Mr. Tully is doing any different. I personally am not interested in what the PRR would be if projected in this fashion. I delt with this lack of interest with a dexterious move of my index finger on the mouse to activate the delete icon. I did not find this proceedure any more offensive than dealing with the posts of the communist chinese diesel models of which I have no interest either. The PRR is a huge subject, and many of us have much very different interests as to topics and time periods. I'm sure each of us has had our fill of one topic at one time or another. Perhaps a little tolerance of the other persons interests could keep this list enjoyable for all. If this list consisted of only people interested in my narrow field, this would be a small list indeed. Thank You for the platform. Sincerely, Doug Edwards ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Sept 1954 Philadelphia Division ETT Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 06:16:17 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 725 I'm looking for anyone with a Philadelphia Division Employee Timetable dated September 26, 1954. I'd like to borrow one for scanning purposes. Need info for my modeling. Would convert to Acrobat format and post on "Keystone Crossings" as well. If you can help, contact me off-list. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar (and REA) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 08:33:37 -0500 Content-Length: 1231 Bob Zoeller said (in part): BTW, I know I will probably have to eat these words since there is a prototype for everything, but the kazillion REA green 40 foot boxcars that have been produced by the model railroad industry have no prototype in fact, to my knowledge. Bob Zoeller - ---------------- Bob, I may just join you in that word feast. I too don't think there was ever a prototype for a 40 REA express reefer. The REA built 2 series of 8'6 high, 54' long express reefers in the late 40s and early 50s. Their low (USRA)height was to accomodate icing platforms. They are nicely covered in Vic Roseman's REA book. About 10 years ago I wrote an article for MR on kitbashing Walthers 40' plug door reefers into a stand in for those cars. The resulting model has the wrong roof and is only 52 feet long, but it looks worlds better than a 40 foot car or the high profile car MDC put out. I had one on display in the PennTexas at the recent Springfield (MA) show. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 13 Feb 98 08:47:11 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: A curious comment about the Broadway Content-Length: 2330 --====52505654485054535256===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Bob Zoeller wrote: The Century ran in as many as seven sections (not >during the Depression, I grant) . They were the market leader in NY-Chicago >traffic. True enough. However, the Century did not connect the fourth biggest (and maybe in the '30's, the third biggest) city in the US at the time (Philadelphia) with the second biggest, Chicago. Nor did it connect New York City with Pittsburgh, though Pittsburgh business travelers may have opted for a PRR train with a schedule with a more reasonable arrival/departure time in Pittsburgh, rather than the middle of the night. What was the limited that had a special stop in East Pittsburgh, for the benefit of corporate executives with plants in that area (i.e. Westinghouse Electric, Westinghouse Air Brake, US Steel)? -- Doug Drew --====52505654485054535256===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Zoeller wrote:
The Century ran in as many as seven sections (not
>during the Depression, I grant) . They were the market leader in NY-Chicago
>traffic.
True enough.
However, the Century did not connect the fourth biggest (and maybe in the '30's, the third biggest) city in the US at the time (Philadelphia) with the second biggest, Chicago. Nor did it connect New York City with Pittsburgh, though Pittsburgh business travelers may have opted for a PRR train with a schedule with a more reasonable arrival/departure time in Pittsburgh, rather than the middle of the night. What was the limited that had a special stop in East Pittsburgh, for the benefit of corporate executives with plants in that area (i.e. Westinghouse Electric, Westinghouse Air Brake, US Steel)?
-- Doug Drew
 --====52505654485054535256===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:13:35 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Q2 (was Spruce Creek Tunnels) Content-Length: 950 Dan Cupper wrote: >Remember that the Q2, like the J1, was prohibited on the Middle Division >precisely because of the Spruce Creek tunnels, so it's unlikely that >that class was the reason for the change. Was the Q2 prohibited right from the start or after experience showed it was too large? Did it not fit thru the tunnels but tended to scrape the cab side a bit if the track wasn't in good shape and the engine rocked? Or was the Q2 prohibited not because of the tunnels but because there wasn't a turntable at Harrisburg/Enola that could handle it? I have heard various stories, and have even seen things in print, that obviously conflict with each other. Dan or anyone else, can you add something definitive? Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 13 Feb 98 09:34:30 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Tidbits (long) Content-Length: 1937 Thanks, Dan Cupper. I was in the midst of writing a reply with similar content, that you worded far more eloquently. One thing you didn't mention outright was midwest chavinism. PRR may have been viewed as an 'outlander', and coupled with its famous corporate arrogance, midwesterners may have preferred to concentrate on more 'homegrown' roads, such as the Nickle Plate. Some people REALLY HATED the Pennsy, and not just NYC fans. Also, I think the PRR has an image in people's minds as the 4-track main, heavy-duty, Big Red Railroad, (with or without electrication) an image which books about Lines East address. When I think of the "New York Central", I really don't think of the Michigan Central, or the Big Four, I think of the 4-track Water Level Route between New York to, say, Cleveland. Re: New England (If you'll allow me to digress): As for books, being a New Englander and a New England line being one of my 'other railroads', I have to say that recently New England railroads seem to have had quality books published about them far out of proportion to the lines' sizes and importance to the country. This may be a 'brief moment' in publishing, but it does seem to be happening. Several minor-league roads, such as the Rutland and Central Vermont, have had 8 or 10-volume series of fairly thick hard cover books published, covering each road in extreme detail. If the same were done in the same depth for the PRR, we would have a collection of volumes exceeding the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica, on Lines West alone. As far as NE book sales go, you may be right, we Yankees ARE cheap. Something to do with pay levels outside of the Boston and NY metro areas... ;<) -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:46:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Tidbits (long) Content-Length: 848 Doug, You wrote > One thing you didn't mention outright was midwest chavinism. PRR may have been viewed as an 'outlander', and coupled with its famous corporate arrogance, midwesterners may have preferred to concentrate on more 'homegrown' roads, such as the Nickle Plate. Some people REALLY HATED the Pennsy, and not just NYC fans. Being a "midwesterener" I have ran into that problem. The term "SPF" has different meaning out here in the `land of corn and cows'. I grew up hard by the Nickel (not Nickle) and I still love the NKP and other railroads, but I am a confirmed `SPF' and am not ashamed of it. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 13 Feb 98 09:52:53 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Chicago Division Operations 1950 Content-Length: 3439 --====48575149555449494853===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" While PRR was one of the earliest appliers of CTC to some of its minor lines, to my knowledge it never applied CTC to its mains, preferring the on-the-ground supervision of transportation that manned towers afforded. Granted, many towers on PRR were 'remoted' from other towers, in later years, which may have meant installation of small CTC boards to replace the remoted towers' lever setups. This strategy was diametrically opposed to NYC's wholesale adoption of CTC for almost all its mainlines in the 50's, with entire divisions controlled from a central location. Reasons for PRR staying with towers may basically come down to amount of traffic and speeds of that traffic on its main routes. -- Doug Drew Bobspf wrote: >I know the answer for the branches, but was the mainline Timetable and Train >Order operation for this division (or for that matter, the Ft. Wayne Division) >in 1950? Did the Pennsy adopt CTC to any extent on Lines West? If so, about >when? > >Bob Zoeller > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48575149555449494853===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While PRR was one of the earliest appliers of CTC to some of its minor lines, to my knowledge it never applied CTC to its mains, preferring the on-the-ground supervision of transportation that manned towers afforded. Granted, many towers on PRR were 'remoted' from other towers, in later years, which may have meant installation of small CTC boards to replace the remoted towers' lever setups.
This strategy was diametrically opposed to NYC's wholesale adoption of CTC for almost all its mainlines in the 50's, with entire divisions controlled from a central location. Reasons for PRR staying with towers may basically come down to amount of traffic and speeds of that traffic on its main routes.
-- Doug Drew

Bobspf wrote:
>I know the answer for the branches, but was the mainline Timetable and Train
>Order operation for this division (or for that matter, the Ft. Wayne Division)
>in 1950? Did the Pennsy adopt CTC to any extent on Lines West? If so, about
>when?
>
>Bob Zoeller
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48575149555449494853===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@COASTALCORP.COM Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 9:23:38 -0600 Subject: Derrick, where are you -Reply Content-Length: 480 Tom, Derrick's e-mail address is: shadow@dementia.org >>>>>>>> "LINESWEST@aol.com" 02/13/98 01:22am wrote>>> To Derrick B. and the rest of the list. I've lost Derrick's e-mail address. Can somebody please e-mail it to me? Thanks, Tom V. >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:34:09 -0600 Subject: Re: DCC or DC or Both Content-Length: 838 Would it not make sense from a business sense to do them in both because there are alot of modelers (myself included) that are not yet DCC> Randy "Liberty" on 02/12/98 08:52:56 PM To: jerry@dsop.com cc: prr-talk@dsop.com (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: DCC or DC or Both Jerry, In regards to your DCC question. I favor DCC. Joe Zappa ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:53:30 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: X-29 express cars Content-Length: 991 Greetings to the list: Not to sound like an old-timer, but one thing I remember from those days is how similar the colors looked on the (allegedly green) REA express cars and the (allegedly red) PRR X29 express-designated cars. It was a case, as several people have acknowledged in postings here, of the grit and grime building up over time. The actual color was a really ugly brownish-gray. At places on and around the grab irons or brakewheels, where the poor brakemen's hands or gloves had rubbed off the grime, the original color showed through. But nowhere else. Engines, even in the late PRR and the Penn Central days, got washed. Passenger cars got washed. X29s and REA cars, at least in the 60s, NEVER got washed. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 91 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:14:14 EST Subject: Re: The End of the Fantasy--By Order of the Listmaster Content-Length: 468 Greetings Group, My last posting was sent over 12 hrs ago prior to this order of the listmaster. I have no idea why aol took so long to deliver it. Has aol been taken over by the USPS? My regrets to all. Sincerly , Don Murphy, the Docter of Steam ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:45:18 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Content-Length: 544 In a message dated 98-02-11 22:22:05 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << John, I thought we did not know the location of a set of Middle Division track charts ... :-) >> A two volume set of the 1950 track charts from NY to Chicago was published by Rails Northeast. They can be found occassionally at swap meets. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:10:30 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar Content-Length: 680 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > BTW, I know I will probably have to eat these words since there is a prototype > for everything, but the kazillion REA green 40 foot boxcars that have been > produced by the model railroad industry have no prototype in fact, to my > knowledge. > Bob, Thank you for answering my next question, which now need not be posted. I have one in O scale which I would love to trade for a Timken Roller Bearing box car. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:14:52 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 577 According to Alexander's "On the Main Line" Sprice Creek Tunnel was originally built as a single bore with two tracks. In the 1890's Cassat had an additional bore made with two more tracks (Alexander's "The Pennsylvania Railroad"). Prior to 1950 the line between Tunnel and Forge was reduced to three tracks as evidenced by the 1950 track charts. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:22:05 EST Subject: Re: HO Tower Content-Length: 635 In a message dated 98-02-12 07:00:56 EST, JDRYE@SPA.com writes: << Does anyone know where I can find photograph's or drawings of HO Tower, near Horseheads, NY? I believe it stood at the junction of PRR's Elmira Branch and Erie's main north of Elmira. Was this tower operated by Pennsy or the Erie? Was it a "standard" PRR or Erie design? >> page 69 of "Pennsylvania Railroad Elmira Branch" by Bill Caloroso ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:30:37 -0800 Content-Length: 2602 OK, I stand corrected. Four tracks it was - but it sure didn't look like it was possible. John > ---------- > From: Mark D Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 1998 8:25 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) > > > > Everything John says may be true for 1950, however, the 1906 post card > > > shows 4 > > > tracks, 2 in each bore, locomotives and rolling stock being smaller > then. > > > The > > > time period I am modeling is 1916 so any research I do is based on > what > > > existed then. > > > > > I don't know how to explain away this discrepancy. I won't dispute your > > photographic evidence to the contrary, but it seems odd to me that the > > southern bore carried two tracks in 1906, and only 1 in 1950. I saw the > > western portals just three weeks ago out the back of the train, and I > can > > confirm that the bore that is there today is only wide enough for one > track. > > How to explain away: smaller loading gauge in 1906. > > John, I spent a few (make that quite a few) minutes _very_ near to the > tunnels. My recollection is that the (original) bores were the same size. > Remember you were comparing, from your trip, a modern, greatly enlarged, > rounded-square-shaped nothern bore with the round southern bore. > > Now, that being said, ever since I've been to SPRUCE (1983 and +), the > southern bore, just in from the western portal, has had some sort of steel > thing hanging down from the southern 'ceiling', with vertical and > horizontal > members forming an "L" shape as you look at it from the portal. The > bricks > and rock in that area are irregular, suggesting to this amateur geologist > that the rock was/became/is unstable in that spot, and that this grillwork > was put in to shore up the tunnel. The vertical member of the "L" is so > positioned that presently it would be difficult to impossible to get 2 > tracks in, even for normal-sized boxcars. For what it's worth. > > So the single track in the sothern bore may have been more out of > necessity than desire for greater clearance. > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: The End of the Fantasy--By Order of the Listmaster Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 12:38:12 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 343 I'm sure glad all of this is over! All of this bickering and infighting made me feel like I was on the freightcars list! :) Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WLHoss@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:46:29 EST Subject: Lines West Structures Content-Length: 557 Just a question from someone who is not well informed on Lines West. Are there any structure kits available for the lines in Ohio, Indiania and Illinois? I have been working on one off and on (mostly off) for the depot at Greenville, Il. for the past 3 years, but didn't think anyone would be interested and haven't pursued it. Bill Hoss ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:18:48 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: A curious comment about the Broadway Content-Length: 836 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-12 08:48:06 EST, Rich Copeland writes: > ........ I would imagine the Century experienced the > same problems in 1935-36-37. >> > >...... The Century ran in as many as seven sections (not > during the Depression, I grant) . They were the market leader in NY-Chicago > traffic. > ------------------------------ However, even Edward Hungerford, in his wordily strange _The Run of the Twentieth Century_ (p. 18), published in 1930, admitted that the Century ran only in one section at times, notably Thanksgiving and Christmas Days. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:30:49 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: post-1968 (long) Content-Length: 516 Bill Daniels wrote: > ...Look at how big the motor that was fitted to the DD-1 was... Remember, that was a 2000 Horsepower motor!... Today's axle-hung traction motors do not even begin to come close to that, nor do they have to. The HP is spread out among multiple motors. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:23:55 EST Subject: Re: Pennsy X-29 Express Boxcar Content-Length: 726 In a message dated 98-02-12 18:32:58 EST, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << BTW, I know I will probably have to eat these words since there is a prototype for everything, but the kazillion REA green 40 foot boxcars that have been produced by the model railroad industry have no prototype in fact, to my knowledge. >> Since REA did not adopt the green color until the mid-late 50's according to the conclusion of a recent thread on the freight car list, all those green REA cars are indeed bogus. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: RailFest '98 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 13:32:41 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1689 On 2/13/98 1:45 AM, Carl Haslett (carl.haslett@lmco.com) wrote (on "Conrail-Talk"): >Yes, the Railroaders Memorial Museum is planning to sponsor a Railfest >again this year. I seem to recall the dates as either Oct 3-4 or Oct >10-11. There will not likely be any information out for a while, because >the Museum is about to celebrate its official "new" opening in the Master >Mechanics Building on April 25th. Preparations for that event has the >staff pretty busy these days. As a lifetime member of the Museum, I'll >keep an eye out for Railfest'98 info in the Museum newsletter and post >anything of importance. I know a few of the "officials" at the museum and -- beginning last year -- they now schedule the weekend so that it does NOT coincide with a home Penn State football game. The football games substantially increases traffic through the area and use up all of the hotel rooms! As a season ticket holder, I can provide the following home schedule: Sept. 5, 19 Oct. 17, 31 Nov. 14, 28 Again, these are dates when RailFest probably ISN'T...so Carl's dates do remain as valid possibilities. I suspect that the remaining October date (the 24-25th) might fall after the clocks change, which event planners would also want to avoid. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Sept 1954 any Division ETT Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 14:30:34 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 839 On 2/13/98 6:16 AM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >I'm looking for anyone with a Philadelphia Division Employee Timetable >dated September 26, 1954. > >I'd like to borrow one for scanning purposes. Need info for my modeling. >Would convert to Acrobat format and post on "Keystone Crossings" as well. > >If you can help, contact me off-list. Thanks. For that matter, I'd can use any of them for this date for scanning to PDF. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Chicago Division Operations 1950 (fwd) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:23:47 EST Content-Length: 2884 > I know the answer for the branches, but was the mainline Timetable and > Train Order operation for this division (or for that matter, the Ft. > Wayne Division) in 1950? Did the Pennsy adopt CTC to any extent on > Lines West? If so, about when? > > Bob Zoeller Bob, the Pennsy had a (to me, even now) strange way of naming their lines. Each line considered a main line in each division was merely named "Main Line". [This changed only sometime in the 1950s or 1960s, when the various Main Lines were given names of endpoint cities, such as "Main Line--Philadelphia to Harrisburg".] If the Division had only one Main Line, there was little trouble, of course. But sometimes the Division had 2 or 3 Main Lines. This became a bit of a problem to us armchair railfans reading employee timetables (ETTs) -- and maybe to some PRR employeees at the time, too -- in that the listings for branch lines would often read something like X X X HX Tower (junction, Main Line) 451.7 ... ... ... which would tell you that there's this tower called HX but would tell you NOTHING about _which_ main line was being connected to. Nevertheless, enough semantics. To your question. > I know the answer for the branches, but was the mainline Timetable and > Train Order operation for this division (or for that matter, the Ft. > Wayne Division) in 1950? I don't know to which Division "this division" refers. The ex-PFtW&C Fort Wayne Div. Main Line most certainly was not Timetable and Train Order (TTO) operation in 1950. > Did the Pennsy adopt CTC to any extent on > Lines West? If so, about when? Depends what CTC is. :-) (See below) Most certainly did. DAYTON tower was a CTC machine, but I don't recall (have to pull out slides...) how much they controlled. Tower op in DAYTON (1987) told me that nearly the entire PRR Columbus--Chicago main was CTC. There's one main line for ya. Not sure about others without pulling ETTs. Two branches (officially) that I know of with CTC: Columbia Br/A&S Br./ C&PD Br., all controlled from COLA; and Bald Eagle Br., controlled from GRAY tower in Tyrone. Re: my "Depends what CTC is.". Pennsy never had anything in the rulebook called "CTC". So using the term "CTC" on PRR is to use that term colloquially. The term "CTC" has several conflicting meanings, details of which are beyond the scope of this forum; indeed, starting this debate would get more people to resign than the "what if PRR" debate did. :-) ((( Oops, is mentioning the text "what if PRR" talking about it? ))) ((( Am I in trouble with the list.owner? ))) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR X35 class & ARA class boxcars Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 16:33:52 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1044 Hi all, A few weeks ago at the Springfield show I bought a Yankee Clipper PRR 1932 AAR boxcar. When the AAR was working on devoloping the 1932 standard boxcar they built 5 test cars. When the testing was done, the PRR bought test car #1. I had originally thought that this car was assigned #36985 and just given the class ARA but from reading the instructions included with the kit, they say that the test car was given class X35 and assigned #36986. Both classes show up in the ORER, both with only the cars listed above. The box for the kit mentions both cars (with the X35 listed as #36989 - a typo I guess.) Which is the test car and what is the other car (and where did it come from)?! Also, does anyone have a photo of the test car in PRR paint. I can't seem to dig one up. Thanks for the help! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:37:36 EST Subject: Re: [N] PRR X-29 Content-Length: 2775 In a message dated 98-02-13 12:01:44 EST, John Drye writes: << The express boxcars used by REA were painted green. I'd have to do a > little research to find out how good a match the X-29 is. >> Repeating my earlier post, I have searched V. S. Roseman's excellent book on REA, and find no 40 foot cars owned by REA itself in its colors. Pacific Fruit Express had 50 REA reefers of 40 foot length and I think they were steel cars painted Pullman Green. There is a photo of a CNJ 40-foot box in dark green and I am sure other railroads had some short ones. I believe the Katy had some rather spectacularly decorated boxcars in headend service. The REA "boxes" referred to were 53 foot long converted troop sleepers and were varying stages of REA green, depending on the year. Don't overlook the fact that many of the REA (and Railroad color ) express reefers were used in nonrefrigerator service as express and mail storage cars. I am not sure, but I thnk this may have been more true of the steel cars than the wooden ones. The orange and green Great Northern steel 50-foot express reefers were used on the Fast Mail in mail service. Incidentally one of the Pennsy Glory videos has a picture of that car entering York in a Pennsy train. Don;'t know if it was a produce shipment or in use as mail storage. Charlie Fox's comment about commonwealth BX express trucks being used under some X29's used for mail storage service looks correct based upon the photo I have of 100688. That car has "Mail Storage, Akron-Columbus" stenciled on a white rectangular panel above the letters. Available in HO from Sunshine Models as part of the decals with their X29 REA car kits. Charlie's suggestion to use the Athearn trucks is probably a good one, ironic since those trucks aren't correct for the REA express reefers. To be precisely accurate, I am modeling a wood REA kit by Sunshine,but in the meantime, I am happy to use the Athearn car in REA colors as a stand-in. As suggested in an RMC article (maybe by someone on this list), I replaced the trucks with some old Central Valley 4-wheel passenger trucks only slightly modified. Looks OK. BTW, a friendly reminder :-) that the X29 mail/express cars were not painted to match "tuscan" passenger cars. When clean and new in the 40's, there would have been a pretty good contrast. As we have already discussed, however, they were almost never clean and new. Ah, passenger service, especially headend cars. Now you guys are talking business! Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Kato RS2's Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 16:49:24 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 597 Hi all, In case you're interested... Kato announced a few days ago that they will be making RS2's this summer. Not an engine at the tippy top of my wish list, but the PRR did had a few ex D&H ones (#4041-4048). Sort of thought that Atlas would do these but I guess Kato felt that they'll beat 'em to the punch. See http://www.katousa.com/html/hors2.html for more... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:13:43 -0500 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: Re: Tidbits (long) Content-Length: 2161 Rich Copeland wrote: > > It seems as if the majority of authors and videomakers start with Sunnyside, > and gradually move west, gradually "losing steam" as they do so. > Could this be due to publication deadlines coming too quickly, > thereby causing the skipping of Lines West material? Or is > the material just less plentiful or harder to find? I would love > to see a book which starts at E.St.Louis and gradually "runs out > of steam" somewhere east of Pittsburgh! Something I'll mention then, that Rich and many others might find interesting: I know about a book project in the works that is covering specifically Lines West of Pittsburgh. The text of the book has already been written by Steve Hipes. Those of you who read CTC Board magazine will remember that Steve wrote a "Lines West today" article in the August 1997 issue. Photos are still being sought and sorted for the book. Timeframe coverage of this book will be 1/3 PRR, 1/3 PC, and 1/3 Conrail. I have had the opportunity to see a handful of the pictures which have been submitted, and rest assured, just from those few pictures, it appears that this will be one fantastic book when it gets finished, covering some PRR territories that have been seen little in print before. I don't know when the book will be finished. It's probably going to be another year at least, I'm guessing, but I think it will be worth waiting for. I really don't have any more details beyond this, but I could find out if someone really wanted to know more. As an aside, as some of you already know, I'm also involved myself in a book project covering one of Lines West's more unheralded lines, the Erie & Pittsburgh Branch. That book project is still a ways to completion also, and we're still looking for photos and other info. So with some patience, we SPFs should have a couple of new Lines West- related books out in the next year or two. Later, -Jer ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:45:27 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Q2 (was Spruce Creek Tunnels) Content-Length: 1795 Michael Bezilla wrote: > > Was the Q2 prohibited right from the start or after experience showed it was too large? Did it not fit thru the tunnels but tended to scrape the cab side a bit if the track wasn't in good shape and the engine rocked? Or was the Q2 prohibited not because of the tunnels but because there wasn't a turntable at Harrisburg/Enola that could handle it? I have heard various stories, and have even seen things in print, that obviously conflict with each other. Dan or anyone else, can you add something definitive? Mike, can't answer whether the Js and Qs were prohibited from the start, because my meager collection of Middle Div. ETTs has a gap from 1942 to 1946. The 1946 ETT, Rule 3109, states: "Other Engine Restrictions: Movement of Class J and Q engines prohibited -- Main Line -- Between Banks and Bell. (note: that's Marysville to Bellwood) On all Branches (except Bald Eagle Branch, Clearfield Branch between Tyrone and Park, and Hollidaysburg & Ptersburg Branch between Alto and Holly." Class J,Q, and S engines were permitted to move on the H&P Branch only if the adjacent track was clear between Alto and Eldorado, and only with the knowledge and approval of the division superintendent. I've seen a picture of a J in Hollidaysburg, headed west over the New Portage Branch. Seems to me as if *width* may have been the issue. A J1 was 11 feet 3 inches wide and a Q2 was 11 feet 4 inches wide, while a T1 and even the S1 were only 10 feet even. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 91 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:07:41 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: [SUGGEST] Listmaster Comments Content-Length: 2978 I would like to see one other addition. In the header, a consistent header would help. FPRR (future PRR) is of interest to many members. At this time, I am not personally interested. Putting [FPRR] in the header would warn me not to read it. FPRR is now a mega topic. Likewise the [HO] for HO modeling would warn and 12" to the foot types not to bother reading the message. Most of the [HO] crowd assume everyone models that scale and not [N]. Most [HO] messages do not mention scale I would put [O-HR] for my O Gauge Hi Rail posts to warn any [N] or [Z} folks not to bother reading. [STEAM] or [GG1] would generally warn a [DIESEL] enthusiast about the mega topic addressed. [WEST] would grab my attention, but could be skipped by anyone who believes the sun should set in Pittsburgh. [FLAME] is something I can expect to see when someone hates this idea with a passion. I would put on my asbestos attitude before reading. [RANT] would tell a major complaint against a poor product. Sometimes there is no mega topic. Do not put one in unless you think it would help. I have 137 messages today. 100+ from this list. I have been out only a couple of days. Many of you have the same issue or more so. Would this help all of us? Most of us SOMETIMES want to read everything, but sometimes want to skip certain mega topics because our we only have 3 minutes (or whatever) for EMAIL that day and must make our time count. Thank you all for your civilized consideration. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS >Jerry_Britton wrote: > > A few notes: > > 1. I was asked, and said that I don't mind, if the "PRR to the Future" > project could use some bandwidth here. However, the posts for this > project are getting exceedingly long, are often argumentative, and > contain much unnecessary data from previous postings. Please shorten > these posts and get to the point or I will have to ask that this > discussion take place elsewhere. > > 2. When you receive the digest, DO NOT copy the entire digest into > your > replies. (I responded in a friendly manner directly to Carl Izzo for > his > recent megapost.) This places an unnecessary load on the listserv, not > to > mention that most readers don't want a huge file clogging up their > bandwidth or filling their mailbox. > > 3. When replying from a digest, be sure to edit the SUBJECT or it will > read "RE: PRR-Talk Digest xxx" which is totally meaningless -- to > anyone! > > Thank you. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:53:35 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: FOM passenger cars Content-Length: 788 Hello, I am still ruminating the possibility of taking some Kato passenger cars and painging them for FOM. I have an idea for making the decals but I want to know if the cars were smoothside or corrugated. Or did they use the FOM scheme on both types? Also what color were the roofs? Lastly, if anyone has pictures of an FOM car, could I get a copy? I saw the price of the book in the PRR&THS and $34 is a tad much if I only want the info for a one time shot. Pjus, I don't hav a lot of money to spare. I'm saving up for my Kato PA-1's! Thanks Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:16:45 EST Subject: Re: Derrick, where are you? Content-Length: 469 To all, Thanx for your help. The first to respond was Derrick. I was able to e-mail a plan drawing of a DT6-6-20 (RT 624 is very similiar) to him. It was from the April, May, June 1978 issue of Extra 2200 South sent, very graciously by HOSAM. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:18:49 -0500 From: steve and brenda long Subject: Pennsy to TP&W Sale Content-Length: 1052 Doug Drew: PC trustees sold the Effner branch from west of Kenneth (7 miles west of Logansport)to the State Line(Effner) in 1976. Just a tidbit of info, the Effner depot still stands and is vacant. The wye the pennsy used for turning power is still in place. All this track was rebuilt and passing sidings were installed by Remington and Burnettsville. The TP&W is also host of Hoosier lift, that's located just east of Remington. This is where many pigs are loaded and unloaded. The Subaru plant at Lafayette uses this a lot for shipping parts today. A lot of truck traffic terminates at Hoosier Lift for california destinations. This part of the former pennsy is in great shape. Too bad we can't say that about the Columbus to St. Louis main east of Terre Haute. I shouldn't dig but what if............ Steve Long Steve Long ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Broadway vs. Century Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:15:08 EST Content-Length: 452 It was mentioned that the _Century_ ran in as many as 7 sections. (And by implication that the _Broadway_ never did.) Can anyone comment as to _why_ the NYC captured the larger share of the market? Was it consistently so? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: The End of the Fantasy--By Order of the Listmaster (fwd) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 0:07:01 EST Content-Length: 747 > My last posting was sent over 12 hrs ago prior to this order of the > listmaster. I have no idea why aol took so long to deliver it. Has > aol been taken over by the USPS? > My regrets to all. > Sincerly , Don Murphy, the Docter of Steam No, AOL's not been taken over. I've seen the same problem. Jerry, I've not seen these long delays on any other list. Do you know where the problem is? I'm emailing this to you personally and to the list. You may want to look at the message headers for both copies. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Early Diesel [was Re: post-1968 (long)] From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:17:24 EST Content-Length: 2366 Check "DAWN OF THE DEISEL AGE". I believe that the operable [used loosely] Diesel locomotives of 1910 or thereabouts were some humongouse one cylinder direct drive Sulzers built for Russia MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:10:16 -0700 Bill Daniels writes: >> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Subject: Re: post-1968 PRR (long) >> From: PRRMAN@aol.com >> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:12:15 EST >> >> In a message dated 98-02-10 22:20:40 EST, dennis@bbn.com writes: >> >> >> But at this point >> I can't resist saying: Why not have a successful diesel locomotive >> invented in 1910? > >Probably due to the fact that a sucessful diesel prime mover had not >been invented >in 1910. The sucessful development of a reasonably successful (and >small enough to >fit in a carbody) diesel engine came in the mid to late 1930's...as a >direct >result of the Navy's attempt to develop a suitable engine for >submarine service. >And, in 1910, the electrical state of the art was (in a word) crude. >Look at how >big the motor that was fitted to the DD-1 was. To make the entire >package workable >required a reliable engine, suitably small generators and traction >motors (direct >drive would not have been suitable to replace steam), and a workable >multiple unit >control circuitry. None of these existed at that time, and wouldn't >exist until >about a quarter of a century later. > >Bill Daniels >Tucson, AZ > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:17:29 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: AOL mail (was End of the Fantasy) Content-Length: 733 Paintloco@aol.com wrote: > Has aol been > taken over by the USPS? or perhaps you mean UP-SP ;> (shoot me now.) --CB _________ __\ _ /__ --------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- ---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- ----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ -----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ ------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 2:03:26 EST Content-Length: 680 > According to Alexander's "On the Main Line" Sprice Creek Tunnel was > originally built as a single bore with two tracks. In the 1890's Cassat had > an additional bore made with two more tracks (Alexander's "The Pennsylvania > Railroad"). Prior to 1950 the line between Tunnel and Forge was reduced to > three tracks as evidenced by the 1950 track charts. It was my understanding that this latter portion of the main line was _always_ 3 tracks. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: List Delays & Fantasy List Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 07:57:52 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2854 Responding to numerous inquiries on two issues: First, there is a lag on the list. Under normal circumstances, there are 0-25 messages in the queue. "In the queue" means that the message was received and distribution has not yet been completed. This could mean that there are many recipients left to receive the message, or maybe only one. The message may not have been delivered to a particular recipient for many reasons, including that their mailbox is full, their server is down, portions of the Internet are down, etc. Every hour, for up to 24 hours, the listserv will reattempt to deliver a message to a recipient. If it still fails, it will drop the recipient from that particular message and send an error to the listmaster (me). When LONG posts are made, many destination servers engage "anti-spam" filters. AOL is the main culprit. This causes the listserv to fail on a transfer and continues to bog down the server as it will have to try again every hour for 24 hours. The listserv also transfers all messages to a domain at once. So, if there are 20 AOL subscribers and it begins a transfer and does, say 11, then AOL cuts the connection thinking it is SPAM, the entire transfer fails. The listserv moves on to AOL's next e-mail server and tries again. This is what leads to duplicate messages. This happens typically when a domain has more than one e-mail server and there is more than one subscriber at that domain. Usually only when the destination server is full or has "anti SPAM" rules in force. At this time there are 68 messages in the queue. At one point yesterday it was over 100. Until traffic subsides and it catches up, there will be lag time. Remember, I am serving four lists, two of which have over 200 subscribers. Second, I have another machine on order to split the load on my servers. Right now I am running five server apps on one machine. Two will be moved to the new machine. I have sent an e-mail to Jeremy and Kevin offering to establish a "Fantasy PRR" list for them once that machine comes online. It won't tax the server much, as their large posts will be going to a smaller subscriber base. Plus, it will keep their traffic off this "historically correct" list. This list will continue to address both prototypical and modeling concerns where the intent is to model accurately per the prototype. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:48:24 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Re: Departing Content-Length: 1062 At 08:57 AM 2/12/98 PST, Kevin Tully wrote: > > I just thought you should know, I've decided to stand with Jeremy Helms >in un-subscribing to the PRR-Talk group. > 'bye Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:39:24 EST Subject: Re: Q2 (was Spruce Creek Tunnels) Content-Length: 1214 In a message dated 98-02-13 19:24:46 EST, mxb13@psu.edu writes: << Was the Q2 prohibited right from the start or after experience showed it was too large? Did it not fit thru the tunnels but tended to scrape the cab side a bit if the track wasn't in good shape and the engine rocked? Or was the Q2 prohibited not because of the tunnels but because there wasn't a turntable at Harrisburg/Enola that could handle it? I have heard various stories, and have even seen things in print, that obviously conflict with each other. Dan or anyone else, can you add something definitive? >> One of the biggest restricting factors was the overall weight of the locomotive and fully loaded tender which was more than 1,000,000 pounds. There were precious few bridges and track which could take the load. There was also a problem with overhead clearence which prevented use east of Pittsburgh. For more complete infromation see "Pennsy Q Class" Classic Power #5 NJ International. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:31:00 EST Subject: WEAVER " O " SCALE Content-Length: 684 For those in " O " scale or " O " Gauge check "new products" at www.weavermodels.com They have announced Factory painted BRASS PRR N-6a & N6b Cabooses in 4 styles (square and round cupolas - centered and offset) with two lettering schemes for each style - for "SPRING" delivery Also their GE U-25b has arrived with several paint schemes 2 and 3 rail - and Aluminum passenger cars are scheduled in several road names including UP PRR & N&W Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:48:58 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Chicago Division Operations 1950 (fwd) Content-Length: 2297 Greetings to Mark and the list: > Two branches (officially) that I know of with CTC: Columbia Br/A&S Br./ C&PD Br., all controlled from COLA; and Bald Eagle Br., controlled from> GRAY tower in Tyrone. Maybe Mike Bezilla can help here, but I thought the Bald Eagle was controlled from MILES tower at Milesburg (the one having what Mike calls "early Dairy Queen architecture"). According to The Pennsy magazine (July 1952, p.18-19), a CTC machine [and yes, the PRR employee magazine did call it a CTC machine] was *moved* from the Terre Haute, Ind., station to a nearby building in early 1952; the story says it controlled 55 miles of track from Harmony, Ind., to Casey, Ill. This is on the St. Louis main line, extending from about 19 miles east of Terre Haute to 36 miles west of that city. A later one-sentence item (July 1961, p. 24) in the same periodical says, quoting: "Twenty-five miles of CTC have gone into service between Davis Tower, near Indianapolis, and Lebanon, Ind." Davis Tower is on the St. Louis Main Line, just west of Indianapolis, and Lebanon is on the I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) Branch (also called "Main Line--Indianapolis to Frankfort" or "Indianapolis & Frankfort Railroad"), about 25 miles north of Indianapolis. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 84:5 > Re: my "Depends what CTC is.". Pennsy never had anything in the rulebook > called "CTC". So using the term "CTC" on PRR is to use that term > colloquially. The term "CTC" has several conflicting meanings, details > of which are beyond the scope of this forum; indeed, starting this > debate would get more people to resign than the "what if PRR" debate > did. :-) > > ((( Oops, is mentioning the text "what if PRR" talking about it? ))) > ((( Am I in trouble with the list.owner? ))) > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:49:27 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: PRR photos in Erie, PA Content-Length: 1281 I saw your name from old PRR-Talk e-mails. Are you the same William Nixon that goes to train shows in Erie, PA selling PRR photos? If so, I have a question for you. If not, don't bother to read on, and I'll see you on the list. I plan to make a web page containing PRR photos from the Erie area, mainly from a friend's collection. He has many which he took himself, but he has others he has purchased, some of which from you. I'd like to get your permission to place a few of your pictures from his collection on my site. I'll credit them, and if you wish, link your e-mail so that those interested in purchasing photos could contact you. When it's ready, I can show you the site for your approval before I announce it on PRR-Talk. This site is just for the enjoyment of Pennsy fans, and would be enhanced by including some of your photos. Thanks for your consideration. BTW, will you be at the Erie show March 1? I just became interested in the hobby within the last year, so this show will be my first. Jerry Shickler geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:43:17 EST Subject: Middle Division Tunnels (long) Content-Length: 1825 I was at the drafting board this morning designing the module(s) for the Spruce Creek Tunnels and wondering if I was catching the feeling of the prototype in the design, when the mailman arrived and much to my surprise Carl Haslett had sent me the Dec 91 and Jan 92 issues of Railpace Magazine which feature the Middle Division from Lewistown to Spruce Creek authored by Mike Bazilla. Lots of color photos, large scale topo maps, and an excellant verbal description. It was great to see that the tunnel area was almost exactly as I had imagined it from my interpretation of the USGS topo map and a drive along US 22 last summer on the way to Railfest, (missed the tunnels). South bore is approximately 1020 feet, north bore is 1000 feet and diverges northerly from the south bore at approximately 10 degrees. West portal is exactly like the 1906 post card except there was a lat of landscaping in the area between the north and south sets of tracks back then, a single masonry portal for both tunnels. East side has split portals as shown on the topo map approximately 300 feet apart. North tracks cross the Little Juniata twice on masonry arch bridges before rejoining the south track at "Tunnel" interlocking. From a photograph taken from inside the south I have approximated the bore to be 30 feet in diameter and the top at about 20 feet above grade, certainly large enough for equipment used at the turn of the century. Hopefully this answers a lot of the questions about this area. Additional information related to modules will be posted to PRRMO. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:58:14 EST Subject: Slow posting Content-Length: 294 I sent a message on Feb. 11 at 13:27 and it has not been posted or returned by AOL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:55:38 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: Looking for JJ Content-Length: 492 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote 2/8/97: >> I have been trying to locate JJ Young Jr. << A letter from JJ was published in the March/April issue of Vintage Rails. His location was given as Charleston, West Virginia. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 16:34 14-Feb-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paintloco@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:49:36 EST Subject: Re:Jerry's explanation of List Delays & Fantasy List Content-Length: 1266 Jerry, Greetings. Your explanation of the source of email delays clarifies what I thought would not happen. I'm gald its not the USPS, UP-SP, or the dreaded PC . I wonder what percentage of your subscribers are modelers and what percentage are strickly PRR fans? Of the modelers, what's the split by scale and time era ? Also are there any in Erie County,Pa? Is there a group that specializes in operating a specific time and place on the Pennsy? Is there a track chart available of Emporiun Junction on the Renovo Division? Is there any truth to the rumor that NS is going to reopen and rebuild Renovo yard? In Erie at OD yard, the western end of the former Renovo Division, an area 3 to 4 tracks wide just to the south of the remaining three tracks in the yard has been cleared and leveled in the last two weeks. Has anyone heard why? Speculation here is that NS will build a connection here to their NKP right of way after they. relocate the 19th St tracks to just south of the LS & MS mainline . Don Murphy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:03:47 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Broadway vs. Century Content-Length: 1543 Mark D Bej wrote: > It was mentioned that the _Century_ ran in as many as 7 sections. > (And by implication that the _Broadway_ never did.) > Can anyone comment as to _why_ the NYC captured the larger share of > the market? Was it consistently so? Without an intensive research effort, I don't think you're gonig to get any definitive quick answers at this late date. However, a couple of contributing factors were: 1. NYC held the early ground on a Manhattan beachhead. For its first eight years, the (Broadway predecessor) Pennsylvania Special ran between *Jersey City* and Chicago, not New York and Chicago. 2. NYC was the New York establishment railroad, so its officers and people were tied in to New York (city and state) culture, politics, entertainment, etc. With headquarters in Philadelphia, the Pennsy held certain advantages, but its leaders were definitely not New York insiders. 3. Twice, the Broadway and its predecessors were discontinued. The first time, around 1903, it was because of freight traffic congestion. The second time was during World War I, again because of traffic conditions. The fact that the Century kept running during those interruptions gave it something of an edge, although again at this remove, how much is unclear. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 91 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:56:22 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: post-1968 Content-Length: 948 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: post-1968 (long) > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:30:49 -0500 > > Bill Daniels wrote: > > > ...Look at how big the motor that was fitted to the DD-1 was... > > Remember, that was a 2000 Horsepower motor!... Today's axle-hung > traction motors do not even begin to come close to that, nor do they > have to. The HP is spread out among multiple motors. I agree...but then, remember that the P Co. used that arrangement because it was the best available at the time. If modern axle-hung motors were available in the teens, then I would bet that they would have used them! Bill Daniels ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:11:28 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Content-Length: 583 Mark D Bej wrote: > It was my understanding that this latter portion of the main line was > _always_ 3 tracks. Mark: Correct. Spruce to Forge was never more than three tracks. A visit to the area, even today with Conrail's two-track main line, will eliminate all doubt. There's just no room for a fourth track. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net John 10:10 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:59:19 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: X-29 Express Cars Content-Length: 2193 Bob, The KEYSTONE Vol. 21 No. 2, Summer 1988 had a very comprehensive article on lettering schemes of PRR box cars 1876 to 1968. While the focus was on lettering and the different styles of keystome monogram, it did have a short paragraph that mentions a few "special banners or slogans" that includes the REA, but makes no mention of base car color. However, the two photos of X-29's in the Morning Sun PRR Color Guide, Vol. 1, page 74 might give rise to arguement. The lower right of the car in the bottom photo could give a hint of freight car red just below the ladder, but the top photo shows two other "red" cars at either end and an REA X-29 that just doesn't seem to have any hint of FCR--sure looks like Pullman of coach green, regardless of all the dirt on it that almost completely masks the stenciling up to between two & three feet above the sill. To my knowledge, aside from anything in MoW service, the only box cars the Pennsy had that were green were the ones they bought from General American when it discontinued it's "Damage Free" car leasing program. These cars were sold off to may railroads besides the PRR (Rock Island comes to mind), but went through some sort of rehab program that as a minumum would include a fresh paint job. It was sort of a hunter green with the Gen. Amer. logo in yellow on an offset black background. The lettering and "DF" logo & sash were white, and the new owning railroad's monogram and reporting marks were added. Two good photos is in the same PRR Color Guide Vol. 1, page 94. Maybe Capt Jack (JRN Witmer) can shed some light on this discussion if he's "listening in." Can you please help settle this for all of us? BTW, the Athearn trucks are a good starting place for making a stand-in for the BX express trucks. Some trimming to the ends of the side frames is needed. If you haven't got the bucks to spend on the more expensive CV versions (if you can find them). Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:16:16 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: SD35 paint schemes? Content-Length: 487 Did the Pennsy SD35s ever run in a paint scheme where "PENNSYLVANIA" was spelled out on the long hoods and with the (Craw Clarendon?) pre "Calendar" numbers on the cabs? I've been unable to find any photos where this is the case. For a project, of course... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:43:01 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 464 I vaguely recall a few years back seeing ads from someone called the "P Company" who were selling standard Pennsy handrails (the metal "strap" over 2 parallel sets of "pipes") in HO scale. Anyone remember this, and know what became of them? -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CBlood59@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:48:51 EST Subject: PRR steam Content-Length: 546 Hello, Did PRR have any Northern or Hudsons? (I just bought a Kato Mike!!!) I model in N-scale and would like to know if any one can help with the pennsy steam roster. My choices are somewhat limitted in N. For example, there is a fine N scale 4-8-8-4, but I doubt that PRR had one on their roster. Thanks, Curt Blood ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:09:07 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: MILES and the BE Branch wasRe: Chicago Division Operations 1950 Content-Length: 2207 Greetings to Dan, Mark, Mike and the group, The Bald Eagle Branch was changed to 'remote controlled interlockings' or 'CTC', or whatever you want to call it, in 1946. The PRR used both terms 'remoted controlled interlockings' and 'CTC' when discussing the Bald Eagle Branch but seemed to like the term 'remote controlled interlockings' better. That's the term found in the timetables anyhow. The equipment that handled the remote controlling was installed in a building built for the purpose at Milesburg. This was MILES interlocking. The building still stands and can be seen from US Rt 220. It is located at the junction of the Bald Eagle Branch and the Belefonte Branch. Mike Bezilla's term "Dairy Queen Architecture" is a very good description of what the building looks like. MILES controlled the interlockings on the Bald Eagle Branch from PARK (behind the Westvaco plant in Tyrone) to EAST BEACH (just west of Mill Hall). The interlockings remoted from MILES included PARK, VAIL, EAGLE, BEAVER, WEST JULIAN, EAST JULIAN, BAKER, MILES, SAND, WOOD, WEST BEACH and EAST BEACH. GRAY controlled WILSON where the Bald Eagle Branch connected with the east/west main at Tyrone. LOCK HAVEN controlled POST, which is on the Bald Eagle Branch just east of Mill Hall and LOCK HAVEN, where the Bald Eagle Branch connected with the Buffalo/Erie-Harrisburg main line. The Bald Eagle Branch was 54.2 miles long. MILES controlled 44 miles of it. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 12:48 PM 2/14/98 -0500, Dan Cupper wrote in part: >Greetings to Mark and the list: > >> Two branches (officially) that I know of with CTC: Columbia Br/A&S Br./ C&PD Br., all controlled from COLA; and Bald Eagle Br., controlled from> GRAY tower in Tyrone. > >Maybe Mike Bezilla can help here, but I thought the Bald Eagle was >controlled from MILES tower at Milesburg (the one having what Mike calls >"early Dairy Queen architecture"). > > >Dan Cupper >cupper@ibm.net >Psalm 84:5 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:07:42 EST Subject: Seeking info on Middle Division Content-Length: 687 Looking for sourses of photos for "Spruce" and "Tunnel" towers, Barree and Spruce Creek Stations, the quarry at Union Furnace, and icing station at Huntingdon. Also, does anyone know of a manufacturer of masonry arch bridges suitable for use on a Middle Division layout? also who has a 4 track signal bridge of PRR type. Also any of the industries and EBT facilities at Mount Union. I have copies of the 1950 track charts, the 1923 CT1000E, and the 1945 CT1000. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:20:41 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 835 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > I vaguely recall a few years back seeing ads from someone called the > "P Company" who were selling standard Pennsy handrails (the metal > "strap" over 2 parallel sets of "pipes") in HO scale. Anyone remember this, and > know what became of them? > Derrick, Without taking the time to dig through old magazines, I think they were reviewed in the "Keystone" a few years ago. That should get you the P Co's. address. Ed Duddy offers them in O scale, possibly from the same source. (House of Duddy, 58 Tealwood Drive, Creve Coeur, MO 63141). Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:49:16 EST Subject: Re: Broadway vs. Century Content-Length: 726 Although the Broadway ran to New York, the train and the "P" company were both regarded as Philadelphians by the New Yorkers. Also, give some credeence to "The Water Level Route - you can sleep" although the Central's route was longer it was without the helper districts. While we rail fans glory in up to 4 K-4s manhandling the trains through the mountains - business travelers probably had a different view of all the locomotive changes and the middle of the night banging and clanging Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: carl.haslett@lmco.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:52:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Railfest '98 - Mark Your Calendars! Content-Length: 987 I received the following e-mail in response to my original posting about this year's Railfest, so it's full steam ahead for Oct. 3 and 4! Carl Haslett Forwarded Message: Subject: Railfest '98 Carl, Your posting on Altoona Railfest '98 reminded us all that planning in earnest needs to begin soon. This year Railfest will be held the weekend of October 3 and 4 -- never, never try to compete against Joe Paterno and the Nit's. New interpretive facility opens April 25 -- still have about $2 million in exhibits to install. Conrail has provided their Business Train for a sponsor's reception trip the evening of April 24 -- should be grand -- its been eight-years in the making. Peter Barton Executive Director Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Chicago Division Operations 1950 (fwd) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:13:54 EST Content-Length: 1815 I said: > > Two branches (officially) that I know of with CTC: Columbia Br/A&S > > Br./ C&PD Br., all controlled from COLA; and Bald Eagle Br., > > controlled from> GRAY tower in Tyrone. > Maybe Mike Bezilla can help here, but I thought the Bald Eagle was > controlled from MILES tower at Milesburg (the one having what Mike calls > "early Dairy Queen architecture"). Hmm.. Well, this _is_ a _PRR_ forum, and in that context, I may be incorrect. I saw GRAY tower in 1982-3 or thereabouts, when it was Conrail. The entire Bald Eagle was then controlled from there. I was 6 years old when the Pennsy renamed itself and don't know what the situation was then. > According to The Pennsy magazine (July 1952, p.18-19), a CTC machine > [and yes, the PRR employee magazine did call it a CTC machine] was > *moved* from the Terre Haute, Ind., station to a nearby building in > early 1952; the story says it controlled 55 miles of track from Harmony, > Ind., to Casey, Ill. This is on the St. Louis main line, extending from > about 19 miles east of Terre Haute to 36 miles west of that city. > > A later one-sentence item (July 1961, p. 24) in the same periodical > says, quoting: "Twenty-five miles of CTC have gone into service between > Davis Tower, near Indianapolis, and Lebanon, Ind." Davis Tower is on > the St. Louis Main Line, just west of Indianapolis, and Lebanon is on > the I&F (Indianapolis & Frankfort) Branch (also called "Main > Line--Indianapolis to Frankfort" or "Indianapolis & Frankfort > Railroad"), about 25 miles north of Indianapolis. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:25:27 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: PRR steam Content-Length: 1194 CBlood59@aol.com wrote: > > Hello, > > Did PRR have any Northern or Hudsons? (I just bought a Kato Mike!!!) I model > in N-scale and would like to know if any one can help with the pennsy steam > roster. My choices are somewhat limitted in N. For example, there is a fine > N scale > 4-8-8-4, but I doubt that PRR had one on their roster. > > Thanks, > > Curt Blood > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Curt, The closest thing to a 4-8-4 Northern that PRR had was it's 4-4-4-4 duplex, but in reality the only resemblence was the rigid frame the two sets of 4 drivers were mounted on. Each set had it's own cylnders, drive rods, etc., and of course were separated by enough space to fit in the 'extra' cylinders. As for Hudsons; no, Pennsy never owned any. Charlie fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:35:55 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 1545 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > > I vaguely recall a few years back seeing ads from someone called the > "P Company" who were selling standard Pennsy handrails (the metal > "strap" over 2 parallel sets of "pipes") in HO scale. Anyone remember this, and > > know what became of them? > > > Derrick, > > Without taking the time to dig through old magazines, I think > they were reviewed in the "Keystone" a few years ago. That should get > you the P Co's. address. Ed Duddy offers them in O scale, possibly from > the same source. (House of Duddy, 58 Tealwood Drive, Creve Coeur, MO > 63141). > > Steve Bartlett > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Stephen, I'd have to dig through boxes too, to find the set I have (still wading through stuff from moving house), but I remember they were in a blue box with white bottom, and a red-on-white label. There is all possibility that I'm wrong, but the only manufacturers of brass stuff that I can remember using that combination of colors were ALCO Models, then ALPHA Models. I'd guess it was ALPHA that made the handrails. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:19:00 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 990 On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 ironhorse@sprintmail.com wrote: > Stephen, > > I'd have to dig through boxes too, to find the set I have (still wading > through stuff from moving house), but I remember they were in a blue box > with white bottom, and a red-on-white label. There is all possibility > that I'm wrong, but the only manufacturers of brass stuff that I can > remember using that combination of colors were ALCO Models, then ALPHA > Models. I'd guess it was ALPHA that made the handrails. I "thought" the ones I was thinking of were plastic. I'm not sure. Either way, no matter, since I have no Keystones before 1997. Presumably, though, knowing what model railroad magazines I read they were reviewed at least some time after January 1989. Oh well. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:29:05 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [modelers] old highway signs Content-Length: 945 Hi, Don't recall what I was looking for (actually I think it was Philly subway stuff on a PA highways/rail page which led me to a New York City highways page, which led me to an anti-I-99 page, which led me to a Pennsylvania Highways page, which led me to this) but I found a gif of old PA highway signs from 1946, which with a graphics editor could be terribly useful to anyone working on a layout set in PA. See: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7457/pa1946.htm Also found a set of what state highway markers looked like in 1946; What I'd like to have is a complete set of numerals for the 1946 PA highway signs so I could make my own numbers as I can see it being very useful... Just an FYI -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:39:48 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: North Trafford (PA) station Content-Length: 1066 Just last week I had another chance to take a look at the foundation/location of the former North Trafford station on the former Turtle Creek Branch. The railing up above that I was standing against was obviously broken at one point by stairs running down to the station; The brick "platform" is still there, and the land is now marked "no tresspassing" and has gravel dumped at one end of the "lot". You can see the entire lot fine from the streets above and the road leading into the Trafford Commerce Park. Somewhere I had a picture of it, but now I'm going to have to dig for pictures of this station and SZ tower, and get some more pictures of the ex-Trafford station, ex-Kingston Lumber, ex-Trafford Corporation building still standing at I believe milepost 336.33. Good shots of the area can be found in PDY-3, pages 82 and 83. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:18:13 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 853 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > I vaguely recall a few years back seeing ads from someone called the "P > Company" who were selling standard Pennsy handrails (the metal "strap" > over 2 parallel sets of "pipes") in HO scale. Anyone remember this, and > know what became of them? > Derrick and others interested: Handrails of this type were reviewed in "The Keystone," Vol 22 Bo. 4, Winter, 1989. The manufacturer was given as Lehigh Models, P. O. Box 179, Buttzville, NJ 07829. Also listed as a source was Portman Hobby Distributors, 851 Washington St., Peeklkill, NY 10566. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:41:28 EST Subject: Seeking info on Middle Division Content-Length: 834 I answered Hal,but overlooked posting this info to PRR-talk: In a message dated 98-02-15 11:14:21 EST, Hal writes: << Also, does anyone know of a manufacturer of masonry arch bridges suitable for use on a Middle Division layout? also who has a 4 track signal bridge of PRR type. >> Beautiful models were introduced at Madison, WI NMRA show by: Model Railroad Stone Works 13235 Summit Square Center Rte. 413 & Doublewoods Road Langhorne, PA 19047 Phone 215-321-1331 Fax: 215-321-1332 Don't know about availability. They were forecasting by 9/97 direct and end of year from dealers. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:43:21 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 1429 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 ironhorse@sprintmail.com wrote: > > > Stephen, > > > > I'd have to dig through boxes too, to find the set I have (still wading > > through stuff from moving house), but I remember they were in a blue box > > with white bottom, and a red-on-white label. There is all possibility > > that I'm wrong, but the only manufacturers of brass stuff that I can > > remember using that combination of colors were ALCO Models, then ALPHA > > Models. I'd guess it was ALPHA that made the handrails. > > I "thought" the ones I was thinking of were plastic. I'm not sure. Either > way, no matter, since I have no Keystones before 1997. Presumably, though, > knowing what model railroad magazines I read they were reviewed at least > some time after January 1989. Oh well. > > -D > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Derrick, I wasn't aware of anybody ever having made PRR handrails in plastic. If someone did, I'd be as interested as you in finding out who. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:03:15 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Seeking info on Middle Division Content-Length: 667 On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > Model Railroad Stone Works > 13235 Summit Square Center > Rte. 413 & Doublewoods Road > Langhorne, PA 19047 > Phone 215-321-1331 > Fax: 215-321-1332 > > Don't know about availability. They were forecasting by 9/97 direct and end > of year from dealers. I got one the day after the Rockville Bridge incident, so they are available, at least the first model (the skew arch) is. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:04:40 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [HO] SD35 paint schemes was Re: SD35 paint schemes? Content-Length: 840 On 15 Feb 1998, Doug Drew wrote: > The keystone-and-numbers only "paint scheme" began with the first orders > of GP30's/U25B's in the early 60's. Since the -35 series of EMD > locomotives post-dated the GP30, they too only received the keystone-number only > scheme. > Athearn, and possibly other manufacturers, added to the confusion by > offering locomotives such as the SD45 with "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out in the > Craw Clarendon -- wrong!!! I believe Atlas did as well on their SD-35, but the specimen I have was painted over, so all I can make out is the old C-C small numbers on the cab side (6039) -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:04:08 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: PRR steam Content-Length: 917 CBlood59@aol.com wrote: > Hello, > > Did PRR have any Northern or Hudsons? (I just bought a Kato Mike!!!) > I model > in N-scale and would like to know if any one can help with the pennsy > steam > roster. My choices are somewhat limitted in N. For example, there is > a fine > N scale Hello Curt, Kato's Mike is a wonderful engine! I have 4 of them! Two are runing with GHQ's L1s body conversions which are an excellent prototype of the PRR's Mikes. As for other loco's, consider ConCor's Hudsons and Pacifics. I am not sure about the Northerns. Anybody know? Also any of the 2-8-8-2 Mallets would be a good choice. Are you just getting started? Cheers, Roger Ellott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CBlood59@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:45:39 EST Subject: PRR steam, please re-post Content-Length: 397 Hello again, Would those who replied to my question regarding Pennsy steam kindly send your messages again. I hit the wrong button on this thing and........ Thanks, Curt Blood ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:58:29 EST Subject: Re: Kato RS2's ---reply---- Content-Length: 894 Rob and all; True Pennsy did acquire several ALCo road switchers from D&H second had during the mid 50's however considered them to be RS-3's while Pennsy considered them RS-2's presumably because of the horsepower difference. They were assigned work orders from ALCo of RS-3's but like Great Northern's first units carried traits of both. Remember these units had the battery boxes to each side of the short hood like the Stewart/MDC/ATLAS models but not on the firemans side of the long hood. I have seen these units listed at the tail end of RS-2 rosters and at the beginning of RS-3 rosters. I personal consider them RS-3's. Keep 'um Polished Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:45:23 EST Subject: Re: PRR X35 class & ARA class boxcars Content-Length: 862 In a message dated 98-02-14 11:41:06 EST, robs@protocol.zycad.com writes: << When the AAR was working on devoloping the 1932 standard boxcar they built 5 test cars. When the testing was done, the PRR bought test car #1. I had originally thought that this car was assigned #36985 and just given the class ARA but from reading the instructions included with the kit, they say that the test car was given class X35 and assigned #36986. >> THe 1932 AAR test car is PRR class X35 #36986. The PRR class ARA car is the pre X29 standard designed proposed by the PRR but rejected by the ARA. It is very similar to the X29. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:05:42 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Content-Length: 677 In a message dated 98-02-14 18:27:39 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << t was my understanding that this latter portion of the main line was _always_ 3 tracks. >> According to the 1950 track chart the physical structures were/are east to west: TUNNEL Spruce Tunnel SPRUCE FORGE Since Sprice Tunnel was four tracked at least at the turn of the century TUNNEL to SPRUCE was four track. SPRUCE to FORGE may have always been three tracks. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:19:33 EST Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails?---relpy Content-Length: 558 Derrick, "P"co was Hugh Debbertine. I believe he may be working with/for Challenger Imports. He also did the FOM HO scales decals. He used to and may still live in West Covina, Ca. You may want to email my brother Ed and see if he has Hugh's address, he used to. ( Ed's email address= ELM2@AOL.COM) Keep 'um Polished Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Schoenberg Subject: They're here.....P2K E7's in DGLE Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:38:46 -0500 Content-Length: 533 Just picked up the new Proto 2000 E7's in DGLE. They look nice. Real nice! They finally have an acceptable shade for DGLE. Still a tad too green but it provides for a nice contrast between the body and the black skirting. Shouldn't the pilot be black on these? The come DGLE. If only they came with antennas! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:24:06 EST Subject: Re: SD35 paint schemes? Content-Length: 635 In a message dated 98-02-15 02:58:28 EST, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << Did the Pennsy SD35s ever run in a paint scheme where "PENNSYLVANIA" was spelled out on the long hoods and with the (Craw Clarendon?) pre "Calendar" numbers on the cabs? I've been unable to find any photos where this is the case. >> Nope. The SD35's were acquired in 1965 well after the swithc to the Keystones only scheme. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:26:00 EST Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 698 In a message dated 98-02-15 03:27:57 EST, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << I vaguely recall a few years back seeing ads from someone called the "P Company" who were selling standard Pennsy handrails (the metal "strap" over 2 parallel sets of "pipes") in HO scale. Anyone remember this, and know what became of them? >> THey were beautiful and exact scale. Also very expensive . As i recall about $50 for 12 inches and that should tell you what happened to them. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 08:42:20 CST Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 988 >I wasn't aware of anybody ever having made PRR handrails in plastic. If >someone did, I'd be as interested as you in finding out who. > >Charlie Fox Hi, all, Again because I'm not at home I'll have to rely on a faulty memory but a few years ago I purchased and successfully used PLASTIC stantions for the standard PRR railings. I believe they were made by Bethlehem CAr Works. The brass ones, last time I checked, were available through Pikestuff, the folks that sell all those HO plastic modern buildings. I'll check on the details. The plastic were great, very reasonably priced compared to brass and good castings. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 08:50:18 CST Subject: Re: Seeking info on Middle Division Content-Length: 1575 On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:07:42 EST, wrote: >Looking for sourses of photos for "Spruce" and "Tunnel" towers, Barree and >Spruce Creek Stations, the quarry at Union Furnace, and icing station at >Huntingdon. > >Also, does anyone know of a manufacturer of masonry arch bridges suitable for >use on a Middle Division layout? also who has a 4 track signal bridge of PRR >type. > >Also any of the industries and EBT facilities at Mount Union. > >I have copies of the 1950 track charts, the 1923 CT1000E, and the 1945 >CT1000. Hi, all, Kalmbach's recent book on the PRR from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh has many good photos of the Middle Div. The icing station at Huntingdon was covered in a KEYSTONE article sometime in the early 1990's and included some good photos. The EBT facilities at Mt. Union are well covered in various books on the EBT, the best of which still is EAST BROAD TOP by Rainey & Kyper. It's widely available as it was reprinted recently. RE the signal bridges, the easiest choices are the IHC bridges and the Bachman two-track bridge, which can be easily kit-bashed into four tracks. Neither are great models but for the money will quickly get you going in HO. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:57:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Seeking info on Middle Division Content-Length: 2124 >> Model Railroad Stone Works >> 13235 Summit Square Center >> Rte. 413 & Doublewoods Road >> Langhorne, PA 19047 >> Phone 215-321-1331 >> Fax: 215-321-1332 >> >> Don't know about availability. They were forecasting by 9/97 direct and end >> of year from dealers. > >I got one the day after the Rockville Bridge incident, so they are >available, at least the first model (the skew arch) is. I mail ordered one, and the castings are beautiful. Unfortunately, they are also quite fragile, and were broken on arrival in Alabama. Replacements were also broken (the manufacturer said he had "never had this problem before") so I gave up. I would suggest buying them in person at a show. They cannot handle the USPS. The bridges available at the time were skewed stone arch bridges - 2 arches in 2, 3 and 4 track models. The model consists of a casting for each side, glued up wallboard for the centers of the arches, a homosote road bed, end buttresses, and a center pier support. They were about to release a high stone arch bridge as well. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 11:32:40 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 440 Don't think the P'Co handrails are available any more. Bethlehem Car Works makes the two rail stanchons in plastic though. They look about the same just not as durable. All you have to do is add the horizontal wire. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (fwd) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 12:13:49 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1025 On 2/16/98 11:05 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >Since Sprice Tunnel was four tracked at least at the turn of the century >TUNNEL to SPRUCE was four track. SPRUCE to FORGE may have always been three >tracks. I concur with a comment that was made either by Dan Cupper or Mike Bezilla. Using Mike's published railfan guides for the area, I visited last summer. There's no problem getting four tracks through Spruce, and "perhaps" not even through FORGE. However, there is a cut in between that absolutely, positively, never held four tracks...unless they filled it back in with solid rock! ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 12:37:47 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1069 >In a message dated 98-02-15 03:27:57 EST, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: > ><< I vaguely recall a few years back seeing ads from someone called the "P > Company" who were selling standard Pennsy handrails (the metal "strap" > over 2 parallel sets of "pipes") in HO scale. Anyone remember this, and > know what became of them? > >> >THey were beautiful and exact scale. Also very expensive . As i recall about >$50 for 12 inches and that should tell you what happened to them.> > >Rich Orr They couldn't have been that much because I bought some. Don't think I'd have spent that much! If I recall they were more in the $15-25 range for three 12" pieces and one had the ballast shields on the bottom. I got a pack of 2 rail and a pack of 3 rail. Now of course I wish I'd bought more... Also Pikestuff carried them for a while.... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: 1954 Maryland Div/NCR Schedules Online Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 13:16:44 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1078 As a part of my modeling efforts -- if anyone else is interested -- I have posted tables of passenger and freight schedules for the Maryland Division portion of the Northern Central Railway (Baltimore-Harrisburg) as of September 26, 1954. All trains and times are shown, and stations and stops that are not included on my layout are indicated in red. Clicking on a passenger train number brings up its consist. Note that many of the NCR passenger trains had multiple names as they were collections of cars forwarded in batch to Harrisburg where they were interchanged with their corresponding east-west "main" trains. See http://prr.dsop.com/layout/index.html --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Jerry's explanation of List Delays & Fantasy List Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:20:32 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 505 On 14 Feb, Paintloco@aol.com wrote: > Is there any truth to the rumor that NS is going to reopen and rebuild Renovo > yard? Can't tell for sure from a quick peek at NS's web pages; browse through http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail.html and see what you can find. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:20:13 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: Re: P Co. handrails Content-Length: 1500 Hi, As Greg Martin said, P Co. is(was) Hugh Debberthine (note spelling). I purposefully used both tenses, because the P Co. seems to sometimes exist and sometimes doesn't. There were two variations of the handrails, two-pipe and three-pipe and each came in two different lengths. These were supposed to be models of between-tracks railings. They were very nice and were definitely brass. You might inquire at the Original Whistle Stop in Pasadena, CA (listing in most model mags) and see if they still have some available. I think I saw some a year and a half ago there and they were getting dusty, so I guess the "demand" has died down. They didn't come in a box but were stapled to some stiff black cardboard and were moderately pricey. I think that Model Memories also is making some between-the-tracks fencing (wrought-iron picket type) that might be usable for the PRR (but I'm primarily a NYC modeler, so what do I know?). Model Memories advertizes somewhere in one of the magazines and you might try the MRIA.org website for their address. Their brass details are very nice also. BTW- The relationship between Hugh D. and Challenger is fuzzy at best. He doesn't really work for them, but he does provide them with data for some of their projects. Frank ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:56:34 -0600 From: ajc5150@net66.com Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 1388 Rob Schoenberg wrote: > > >In a message dated 98-02-15 03:27:57 EST, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: > > > ><< I vaguely recall a few years back seeing ads from someone called the "P > > Company" who were selling standard Pennsy handrails (the metal "strap" > > over 2 parallel sets of "pipes") in HO scale. Anyone remember this, and > > know what became of them? > > >> > >THey were beautiful and exact scale. Also very expensive . As i recall about > >$50 for 12 inches and that should tell you what happened to them.> > > > >Rich Orr > > They couldn't have been that much because I bought some. Don't think I'd have spent that much! > If I recall they were more in the $15-25 range for three 12" pieces and one had the ballast > shields on the bottom. I got a pack of 2 rail and a pack of 3 rail. Now of course I wish > I'd bought more... Also Pikestuff carried them for a while.... > > Rob > Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly are "Pennsy Handrails"? Metal straps over parallel pipes; ballast shields; 2 rail; 3 rail; it all sounds interesting, but I don't have a clue of what you are talking about. Enlighten me! Thanks, Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:28:37 EST Subject: HO - GP-9B Conversions Content-Length: 343 Has anybody gotten any of these conversion kits for the LL P2K GP-9's yet? If so how do they look and work? Thanks Todd Horton ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:36:07 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: A Curious Comment about the Broadway Content-Length: 1366 On 13 Feb Doug Drew wrote: >> What was the limited that had a special stop in East Pittsburgh, for the benefit of corporate executives with plants in that area (i.e. Westinghouse Electric, Westinghouse Air Brake, US Steel)? << According to my January. 1930 OFFICIAL GUIDE reprint, there were... Train From Ar E.Pittsburgh 63 "Sea Gull" Atlantic City 7:07d 9 "Western Express" New York 7:27 19 ? New York 7:33d 35 "Pittsburgh Night Exp." Philadelphia/Atl.City 7:38d 51 "Potomac" Washington (where else?) 7:53 37 "Iron City Express" Boston/Springfield 8:23 67 "Red Knight" New York 8:54d 61 "Pittsburger" New York 9:34 631 all-stops local Philadelphia 10:42 (except Sunday) d - discharge only. All except 631 carried sleepers, some were sleeper-only. ETC... (That's all I have time for right now !) - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 20:20 16-Feb-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: FS: HO Brass PRR 0-8-0 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:48:53 -0500 Content-Length: 345 Gem HO scale PRR 0-8-0, near mint condition, NOB. $300 plus shipping. Interested parties contact wgripp@prius.jnj.com via email. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 08:34:27 CST Subject: Re: [HO] "P Company" handrails? Content-Length: 2402 >Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly are "Pennsy Handrails"? Metal >straps over parallel pipes; ballast shields; 2 rail; 3 rail; it all >sounds interesting, but I don't have a clue of what you are talking >about. >Enlighten me! Hi, all, Like so much on the PRR, the rr developed a standard vertical bracket for either two or three pipes for producing railing. These were heavy metal castings with various types of bottoms to accomodate the type of installation proposed - end of platform, side of a bridge, etc. I have never seen these used for between-track application but they were extensively used throughout the system on bridges, platform ends, etc., etc. Consult almost any book with PRR photos showing trackside structures and you will see this railing. For example, the Rockville Bridge had this railing on it. I'm told that in some cases the piping was also the rodding for Armstrong interlocking plants. From what I have seen in photos, between-the-track fencing was a different design and the Model Masterpiece offering represents this quite well. However, this type of fencing seems to have only been commonly used in the east and in electrified territory. The railing brackets, by contrast were used everywhere - I see them still in Chicago - and much of this railing is still in place, probably some 70 or so years after its installation. When present, it's a good clue that you're looking at former PRR property. I also recall seeing these railing castings depicted in one the re-print books of standard PRR plans. Concerning the railing in question, the brass P Co. items were, I believe, the only ones available for the three-pipe and could include an additional hanging piece of grill, probably used to keep ballast, etc. from being thrown through the railing. They are pricey. The Bethlehem Car Works are plastic and two-pipe but are easy to work with, and the price is right. >From a strictly subjective standpoint, I believe the two-pipe railing was more common. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: HO - GP-9B Conversions Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 11:57:32 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 622 Todd, I got one but haven't installed it yet. I did test fit the parts on a GP18 that I started converting myself before either the GP9's or the conversion kits were announced though. The parts look and fit fine and it looks like the results will be good. Their diework for things like the safety tread and door latches doesn't match LL's perfectly but you have to examine real close to notice. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Server Planned Downtime Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 13:37:55 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2598 Dear subscribers: On the evening of Wednesday, February 18, beginning at around 6:30 p.m., I will be working on installing new DNS (Domain Name Server) software on the server. Since inception in 1996, I have been using MacDNS from Apple Computer (hey, it's free!). I will be moving to QuickDNS from Men & Mice, which tests at speeds far superior to MacDNS and even better than UNIX BIND. That "should" translate into faster access for all aspects of the server. Additionally, it should better respond to "reverse domain lookups" which hinder delivery of mail to AOL due to "anti-spam" filters installed on their mail servers. This changeover will likely be completed within an hour. I will test the new setup as completely as possible. However, there are always possibilities beyond the realm of "normal" testing, so please be patient. Additionally, in a few weeks I will be splitting the server load onto another machine which is due for arrival. I am currently running router/gateway, dns, ftp, web, mail, and list all on one machine. The new machine will takeover router/gateway and dns tasks. Statistically, this should boost throughput by at least 20%. I will alert you when this changeover is planned. It will likely be scheduled for over a weekend. Down the road I plan to move the listserv and a new searchable database to a new machine. (I found a source for used RISC-based PowerPC's for only $400!) Also, I am developing numerous GUI searchable databases for passenger and locomotive rosters. I am in a "wait and see" mode on the bandwidth issue. I am grateful to Digital Image Works, Accurail, Liberty Model Productions, and others, for sponsoring (and offsetting) the monthly operating costs. At some point the bandwidth will be increased. I had planned to go to dual channel ISDN, but there is a new technology coming along called DSL (Digital Subscriber Line). There are numerous working specs, but it will offer 500K-1.5M/sec. transfer rates over already installed "normal" telephone lines. This is already in place in the mid-west and should hit the east around mid-late year. Stay tuned and be patient. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 17 Feb 98 16:27:41 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 618 >>Since Sprice Tunnel was four tracked at least at the turn of the century >>TUNNEL to SPRUCE was four track. SPRUCE to FORGE may have always been three >>tracks. Anyone have an idea why the PRR would have put four tracks through two tunnels, but then gone back to three tracks in the open air? Seems more like something that would occur on a model railroad, than in real life... -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:20:27 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: X-35 Content-Length: 1361 Hello folks... Since there has been this recent string about the X-35 boxcar and the ARA test cars,i thought i'd add that in the book "PRR passenger and freight car diagrams" by robert wayner there is a diagram of two cars on page 71. The top diagram notes that this car is a "proposed ARA standard boxcar" PRR sample built 1916-1917 This car is 45'2" in total lenth,13'8 7/8" in height from rail to running boards and was 9'9 1/4" wide over the side sheets. It has a 6'wide x 8'5 15/16"high door and plain ends.3098 cu.ft. The other car shown below is listed as..."ARA boxcar class X-35" 41'8 1/2" over strikers,13'10 1/4" in height from rail to running boards and 9'4 3/4" wide over side sills..It has a 6'wide x 8'8 11/16" high door.And it has it shown with Dreadnaught type ends.(perhaps from a later rebuilding ?). 3311 cu.ft. Both cars are shown with 5'6" wheelbase trucks. I'd thought i'd post this in case anyone wants to know.... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:10:40 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (long) Content-Length: 1826 >From an article in The Railway Age magazine March 15, 1901 provided through the courteous of Michael Bazilla: "The addition of third and fourth tracks in the Middle Division has involved many difficult problems, because of the situation of the line in the narrow valley of the Juniata. An important undertaking brought to a finish at the beginning of 1900 included a second Spruce Creek Tunnel, the rebuilding of Little Juniata Bridge No. 1, west of the Spruce Creek Station, and the straightening of a considerable stretch of crooked track. In order to improve the alignment and for other practical reasons connected with the work of construction, it was determined to give the two new tracks an independent location through an entirely new tunnel 1075 feet in length, 29 feet in width, and 20 feet in clear height at the center. The old tunnel though, like the new one, for double tracks, was narrower. It has now been enlarged and made of the same section as the later tunnel." The drawing accompanying the article shows the centerline of the tracks 6'-1" from the tunnel centerline or 12'-2" track to track centerline spacing. There is also a reference to the first bridge west of the Spruce Creek Station (a stone masonry skew bridge) being widened form two tracks to three, the bridge had (has) 5 spans at 54 feet each. This lends credence to the speculation that the section from Spruce to almost Tyrone was never more than three tracks. The change from four tracks to three tracks probably occurred at Spruce Tower just west of the tunnels. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:46:07 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels Content-Length: 1387 > Anyone have an idea why the PRR would have put four tracks through two > tunnels, but then gone back to three tracks in the open air? Seems more like something that would occur on a model railroad, than in real life... Part of the answer is in a post that Jerry put up recently, and I think Mike Bezilla commented, too. The topography between Spruce and Forge is very difficult. In the great four-tracking of 1898-1906 (approx.), the railroad extended the four main line tracks as far west as it could within reasonable cost, which was Spruce (or "SC tower," as it was known back then). The twists and turns and amount of rock removal necessary to clear enough right-of-way for even three tracks was significant. Because the three-track stretch from Spruce to Forge (or )was only about six miles, PRR apparently just decided to live with it. For what it's worth, as of mid-July 1899, the stretch between what's now "Tunnel" (old QX tower/block station) westward through SC to Union Furnace (block station QY) was double track (second tunnel not yet built), and the section from QY to Forge (FR) was three tracks. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Isaiah 53:6 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:42:12 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Chicago Division Operations 1950 (fwd) Content-Length: 2564 Mark D Bej wrote: > > Re: my "Depends what CTC is.". Pennsy never had anything in the rulebook > called "CTC". So using the term "CTC" on PRR is to use that term > colloquially. The term "CTC" has several conflicting meanings, details > of which are beyond the scope of this forum; indeed, starting this > debate would get more people to resign than the "what if PRR" debate > did. :-) > Oh, why not. Time to stir things up :-) I'm sure I am getting into the area of complication that Mark wanted to avoid, but here's my 1 cent's worth on the subject of CTC or TCS (Traffic Control System). The most significant difference I am aware of concerning movement of trains under CTC Rules, aside from the obvious feature of remote control of signals and switches, is that under typical CTC or TCS rules, train movements are made in accordance with signal indications. It should be noted that even in CTC Territory, block signals between signals at switches (or Controlled Points, in later terminology), are not under the control of the CTC operator, but operate as ordinary block signals, to space trains and protect against any opposing trains. Prior to CTC, most train movements required a complicated set of rules and very precisely worded and interpreted train order forms. Under CTC or TCS rules, if the signal does not say "Stop," you can go. Whether the signal says stop is the responsibility of the Dispatcher or CTC operator. The Dispatcher at a given location may or may not actually control the CTC machine. The latest PRR Rule book I have is from 1956, which contains a set of rules, 251, 253, and 254, for "Movement of Trains in the Same Direction by Block Signals." This _MAY_ have been for the implementation of PRR's early CTC or stretches of track with remote interlockings, as the rules were in effect only where designated by timetable instruction. I have not looked in the timetables for locations where these rules applied. By the time of the Penn Central, Rulebook CT-400 dated April 28, 1968, Rules 251-154 were still in the book, but a separate section of Traffic Control System Rules (450-462) had been added. My point is that the significant difference with CTC was that train movements were made by signal indication rather than Train Order. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:46:06 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: special stops in E. Pittsburg Content-Length: 1076 Kent Loudon in a reply to Doug Drew wrote: >>> What was the limited that had a >special stop in East Pittsburgh, for the benefit of corporate executives >with >plants in that area (i.e. Westinghouse Electric, Westinghouse Air Brake, >US Steel)? << ===== For folks of that social strata, it would likely be one of the Premiere trains; the Broadway, Liberty, etc. Can't say which one, but I suspect it would this type of train: the railroads were very class conscious in those days and would never think of carrying top corporate executives on a lowly coach local. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:01:50 -0500 Content-Length: 1783 Hoping someone can help or stear me in the right direction to get the information I need. According to the information I have dated Oct. 1, 1954, the X-29s in box express service rode on 11 different truck classes. I don't have a document that identifys what each class of truck looks like or it's model equivilant (or at least close to it). Here's a list of what I do have: 2DF4 2DF8 - Kadee # 517 2DF8C - Does this look identical to the one above? 2DF12 - Bowser # 74190 2DF17 2DF19 2DF19D 2DF22 2DF22C 2DF28 2DF31 It appears to me that the REA express trucks that Athearn uses, and mentioned earlier in similar posts, can be modified to resemble the 2DF32 which were used on the X42s in postal express service. Does the 2DF31 truck look the same? Also according to Sunshine Models, the 2DF13 was Pennsy's class designation for the National Type "B" truck. Which commercialy available truck resembles this model. I looked through my Walther's catalogue and could not find any listed. Sorry to sound like I'm splitting hairs here but I'm working on a presentation for a future Modeler's Meeting for the PRRT&HS Phila Chapter and would like to be able to supply this information. By the way, I think someone in the group was looking for car numbers of X-29s assigned to passenger service, 2000 - 2499 and 9456 - 9586 (as of 10/1/54) This changed as there is a picture in one of the color guides of a 4000 series car which did not match up to my 1954 information and yes, these were all painted freight car color. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Red Caboose PRR REA X29's finally coming! Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 10:05:53 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 680 Red Caboose finally has announced shipping for their PRR Railway Express Agency X-29 box cars...June 1. I'll be buying them in 12-packs (different numbers) for resale...proceeds benefit "KC" and the list. No pricing yet. P2K PA-1's in PRR DGLE five stripe are also due June 1. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:05:22 EST Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Content-Length: 2171 In a message dated 98-02-18 10:07:09 EST,Joe writes : << Also according to Sunshine Models, the 2DF13 was Pennsy's class designation for the National Type "B" truck. Which commercialy available truck resembles this model. >> In view of recent posts on the subject of trucks, I would like to call your attention to an article by Richard Hendrickson in Rail Line News, Jan/Feb 1997 on HO scale freight trucks. It iseems to be a comprehensive article, except no photos or illustrations. Part 2 will deal with roller bearing trucks and wheels. He mentions Pennsy /ARA trucks and gives Life-Like and Eastern Car Works as recent sources for National B-1 trucks. Also, doesn't Sunshine have a kit? On that subject, you did not mention Sunshine as a source for the 2DF8 or 2DF12. Although they are kits, the 2DF8 has brake rigging, which omission the Keystone correctly took Kadee to task for in a review, considering the price of the Kadee trucks. Also the Kadee trucks are sprung and you can see through them, which was difficult to do on the prototype as at least later versions had 2x3 or 3x2 rows of springs (source is Sunshine's data sheet). Unfortunately, there is no good index of the Keystone; I believe they had an article on PRR trucks.Sunshine's instruction sheet has some info as well. That sheet also states that the 2DF19 which is associated with the X37 introduction looked nearly identical to the 2DF12. Both types had the leaf springs replaced over the years. <> And as I recently posted, I have a photo of 100688 in mail storage service. Regards Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRRT&HS convention? Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 11:22:00 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 431 Hi all, I remember that the convention is in Lancaster this year, but does anyone know when it it? Also, what hotel is it being held at? Gotta make sure my business travel plans don't conflict! Thanks, Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 12:16:10 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1351 ".....He mentions Pennsy /ARA trucks and gives Life-Like and Eastern Car Works as recent sources for National B-1 trucks. Also, doesn't Sunshine have a kit? On that subject, you did not mention Sunshine as a source for the 2DF8 or 2DF12. Although they are kits, the 2DF8 has brake rigging, which omission the Keystone correctly took Kadee to task for in a review, considering the price of the Kadee trucks......" The Sunshine National B-1 truck kit is just the Eastern Car Works one with JayBee wheelsets. The other Sunshine trucks are metal construction, sort of like Cape Line uses. Broadening this from the X29 topic somewhat, here's a list with all of the trucks mentioned so far.... 2DF4 2DF8 - Kadee # 517, Red Caboose, Sunshine 2DF8C - Does this look identical to the one above? 2DF12 - Bowser # 74190, Sunshine 2DF13 - LL-Proto2000, Eastern Car Works - National B-1 2DF17 2DF19 - similar to 2DF12 2DF19D 2DF22 2DF22C 2DF28 2DF31 2DF32 - Modified Athearn REA => X42 Also, what were the PRR classes for the other Bowser PRR trucks, ie their caboose trucks and the Crown type ones... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:26:33 EST Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Content-Length: 716 In a message dated 98-02-18 10:07:09 EST, jwg0@netreach.net writes: << Also according to Sunshine Models, the 2DF13 was Pennsy's class designation for the National Type "B" truck. Which commercialy available truck resembles this model. >> PK2000 makes National B-1 trucks. Also you need Allied full cushioned trucks. I don't know the class they may be contained in you list. The 2DF4 is the truck which Red Caboose supplies. Another of the classes is the ASF A-3 -- Kato Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRT&HS convention? Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 12:46:30 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 717 On 2/18/98 12:22 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >I remember that the convention is in Lancaster this year, but >does anyone know when it it? Also, what hotel is it being held at? Last weekend of April into May 1. Days Inn. Next year Altoona in the fall. 2000 tentatively slated for York. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:15:01 -0800 From: Sharon Edwards Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Content-Length: 1160 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: Snip > Also, doesn't Sunshine have a kit? > On that subject, you did not mention Sunshine as a source for the 2DF8 or > 2DF12. Although they are kits, the 2DF8 has brake rigging, which omission the > Keystone correctly took Kadee to task for in a review, considering the price > of the Kadee trucks. > Also the Kadee trucks are sprung and you can see through them, which was > difficult to do on the prototype as at least later versions had 2x3 or 3x2 > rows of springs (source is Sunshine's data sheet). The Kadee 2df8 trucks cannot be compared with the Sunshine kits. The Kadee trucks have scale sideframes, well detailed, with scale lettering. In as much as the trucks are sprung, they stay on all but the worst track. The Sunshine trucks are crude by compareson. the difference in price reflects not only the difference in quality, but the fact that the Kadee trucks are assembled. Doug ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:18:41 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Red Caboose PRR REA X29's finally coming! Content-Length: 750 Jerry_Britton wrote: > Red Caboose finally has announced shipping for their PRR Railway > Express > Agency X-29 box cars...June 1. I'll be buying them in 12-packs > (different > numbers) for resale...proceeds benefit "KC" and the list. No pricing > yet. > > P2K PA-1's in PRR DGLE five stripe are also due June 1 Hello Jerry,Is Red Caboose doing anything in Nscale? And who is making the PA-1s? I know Lifelike has some great examples in HO and I just heard that Kato will do one in N as well. Thanks Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Red Caboose PRR REA X29's finally coming! Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 13:45:44 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 760 On 2/18/98 2:18 PM, Roger Elliott (relliott@mail.telis.org) wrote: >Hello Jerry,Is Red Caboose doing anything in Nscale? Don't know. >And who is making >the PA-1s? I know Lifelike has some great examples in HO and I just >heard that Kato will do one in N as well. My post indicated "P2K"..that's "PRR-Talk" shorthand for Life Like Proto 2000. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:06:22 EST Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Content-Length: 989 In a message dated 98-02-18 13:10:31 EST, Doug writes: << The Kadee 2df8 trucks cannot be compared with the Sunshine kits. The Kadee trucks have scale sideframes, well detailed, with scale lettering. In as much as the trucks are sprung, they stay on all but the worst track. The Sunshine trucks are crude by compareson. the difference in price reflects not only the difference in quality, but the fact that the Kadee trucks are assembled. >> Don't disagree with you on the quality of castings. BTW I was surprised to note that the Red Caboose trucks also do not have brake rigging. On another note, I avoid discussing politics, religion, or whether sprung trucks are better than rigid or unsprung equalized ones :-) Regards Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRT&HS convention? Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 15:41:10 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 798 Jerry, May 1 is Friday. So I don't think it starts the last weekend of April.... I guess the convention is: Thursday April 30 - Sunday May 3 Right? Rob On 2/18/98 12:22 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >I remember that the convention is in Lancaster this year, but >does anyone know when it it? Also, what hotel is it being held at? Last weekend of April into May 1. Days Inn. Next year Altoona in the fall. 2000 tentatively slated for York. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRT&HS convention? Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 15:49:51 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 627 On 2/18/98 4:41 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >May 1 is Friday. So I don't think it starts the last weekend of April.... >I guess the convention is: >Thursday April 30 - Sunday May 3 >Right? Yes. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:10:13 EST Subject: Re: PRRT&HS convention? Content-Length: 301 The convention is the last weekend of April 23-26 at the Days Inn, Lancaster. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:38:27 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: Re: PRRT&HS convention? Content-Length: 1262 Hello all- The PRR T&HS convention begins on May 1 and runs through the morning of May 3 in Lancaster. Hope this helps clarify. Jim On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Rob Schoenberg wrote: > Jerry, > > May 1 is Friday. So I don't think it starts the last weekend of April.... > I guess the convention is: > Thursday April 30 - Sunday May 3 > Right? > > Rob > > > > On 2/18/98 12:22 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: > > >I remember that the convention is in Lancaster this year, but > >does anyone know when it it? Also, what hotel is it being held at? > > Last weekend of April into May 1. Days Inn. > > Next year Altoona in the fall. 2000 tentatively slated for York. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Red Caboose PRR REA X29's finally coming! Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 17:42:28 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 807 I remember hearing somewhere that Red Caboose is definitely doing the X29's. I don't remember any of the details though. Rob -------------------- On 2/18/98 2:18 PM, Roger Elliott (relliott@mail.telis.org) wrote: >Hello Jerry,Is Red Caboose doing anything in Nscale? Don't know. >And who is making >the PA-1s? I know Lifelike has some great examples in HO and I just >heard that Kato will do one in N as well. My post indicated "P2K"..that's "PRR-Talk" shorthand for Life Like Proto 2000. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:46:10 EST Subject: Re: special stops in E. Pittsburg Content-Length: 1348 In a message dated 98-02-18 00:53:50 EST, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: >folks of that social strata, it would likely be one of the Premiere >trains; the Broadway, Liberty, etc. Now THIS is odd! A July 1951 Official Guide shows westward service at East Pittsburgh provided by the Iron City Express and the Pittsburgh Night Express, which came, respectively, from NY and Phila. Both were coach and sleeper trains. Also, a number of commuter locals stopped there, but not the deluxe, all-Pullman Pittsburgher. But eastward service was provided only by Nos. 18 and 24, which were slow, coach-only mail trains, as well as the commuter locals. So you could go from NY to East Pittsburgh on a fairly nice train, but you couldn't get back! I guess, if your name was Mellon, Frick, Carnegie, etc., the PRR would stop any train anywhere for you. I wonder if this thread should really be about East Liberty, which is inside the city limits of Pittsburgh. You don't really want to go there today, but in those days it was close to the "nicest part of town." Many of the good trains stopped there. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:48:27 EST Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (long) Content-Length: 1082 In a message dated 98-02-17 20:19:36 EST, Hal wrote: << Subj: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (long) Date: 98-02-17 20:19:36 EST From: Hal6963@aol.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From an article in The Railway Age magazine March 15, 1901 provided through the courteous of Michael Bazilla: "The addition of third and fourth tracks in the Middle Division has involved >> (SNIPPED) Even though I guess it was a typo, Hal's use of "the courteous of Michael Bazilla" sounds like the collective nouns collected in James Lipton's : a happy guide to the Internet would be that each of use everyone would think of the "courteous of Michaeal Bazilla" when posting. Would that it were the "courteous of George Conklin". Peace to all. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:55:58 EST Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Content-Length: 584 In a message dated 98-02-18 10:07:13 EST, you write: << Also according to Sunshine Models, the 2DF13 was Pennsy's class designation for the National Type "B" truck. Which commercialy available truck resembles this model. >> Joe, Life Like makes a very beautiful pair of National B trucks in HO. Part # 21255 Keep 'um Polished Greg Matin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:21:38 -0500 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: special stops in E. Pittsburg Content-Length: 1005 PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > > I guess, if your name was Mellon, Frick, Carnegie, etc., the PRR would > stop any train anywhere for you. > I have heard that at Latrobe, on the west end of the platform, there was a seperate shelter and stairway to the street for the exclusive use of the Mellons. Is this fact or fiction?? I spend a lot of time at the station but have found no evidence. On another note, on a post card of the Latrobe station, postmarked 1903 or 1908, can't tell which, the between tracks fence mentioned a few days back is clearly in view between the outside tracks(passenger) and inner tracks(freight). The post mentioned that these fences, cast iron picket type, were mainly confined to the eastern regions. Have fun, John W Rosenbauer ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (long) (fwd) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:39:27 EST Content-Length: 1388 Harold quoted: > valley of the Juniata. An important undertaking brought to a finish at the > beginning of 1900 included a second Spruce Creek Tunnel, the rebuilding of > Little Juniata Bridge No. 1, west of the Spruce Creek Station, and the > straightening of a considerable stretch of crooked track. > (a stone masonry skew bridge) being widened form two tracks to three, the > bridge had (has) 5 spans at 54 feet each. This lends credence to the > speculation that the section from Spruce to almost Tyrone was never more than > three tracks. The change from four tracks to three tracks probably occurred > at Spruce Tower just west of the tunnels. Indeed. This answers the question posed earlier, which I've been waiting to review other mail before answering: They did _not_ build 2 tunnels of 4 tracks only to cut to 3 tracks. They built 4 tracks, cut to 2, thru one tunnel, then to 3 thru the valley. The tunnel was a bottleneck, so they built _another_ tunnel of 2 tracks, and made the transition point west of the tunnels, at SPRUCE tower, and never got around to widening the cuts and bridges from SPRUCE to FORGE to 4 tracks. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:03:13 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: special stops in E. Pittsburgh . . . and elsewhere Content-Length: 884 Greetings to Rich and the list: There's been a good deal of discussion about the special stops PRR provided to accommodate the rich and maybe-famous, along with attempts to correlate these with published timetables. A caution: Here is where the printed record, as good as it is, fails, while oral history interviews shine. Until the coming of Amtrak, PRR and PC timetables never showed a Broadway stop at Lewistown, Pa., but indeed the great train did stop there when executives of Standard Steel (a subsidiary, lest we forget, of Baldwin Locomotive Works, a prime PRR supplier) were aboard and bound for that town. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net John 3:16 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Chicago Division Operations 1950 (fwd) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:59:59 EST Content-Length: 5754 > > Re: my "Depends what CTC is.". Pennsy never had anything in the rulebook > > called "CTC". So using the term "CTC" on PRR is to use that term > > colloquially. The term "CTC" has several conflicting meanings, details > > of which are beyond the scope of this forum; indeed, starting this > > debate would get more people to resign than the "what if PRR" debate > > did. :-) > Oh, why not. Time to stir things up :-) > I'm sure I am getting into the area of complication that Mark wanted to > avoid, but here's my 1 cent's worth on the subject of CTC or TCS > (Traffic Control System). This gets touchy and complicated, and is best debated on other lists, perhaps. Anyone bored already (probably 80% of you), PLEASE DELETE NOW before the esoterica gets to you. THIS IS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. :-) > The most significant difference I am aware > of concerning movement of trains under CTC Rules, aside from the obvious > feature of remote control of signals and switches, is that under typical > CTC or TCS rules, train movements are made in accordance with signal > indications. Your idea is correct, but the wording is not quite. First off, there are no "CTC rules" and have not been until GCOR, out west, way out west, invented the term. There's still some argument whether the term "CTC" is copyrighted (by one signal manufacturer), but general consensus seems to be leaning to the view that "CTC" is an English acronym for 3 English words, whereas "cTc" is the copyrighted machine name. TCS is a term defined by the AAR and, thereby, in the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) and refers to a particular operating style where the authority for movement is _only_ the signals. The difference is that, under TTO (timetable & train order), MBS (Manual Block System), and ABS (Automatic Block System), trains still had a system of superiority: superiority of right, class, or direction (I will NOT go into detail). This system of superiority _could_ be superseded by signals but _did not have to be_. (In practice, in ABS it basically alway was superseded, by rule 251 or 261.) > It should be noted that even in CTC Territory, block > signals between signals at switches (or Controlled Points, in later > terminology), are not under the control of the CTC operator, but operate > as ordinary block signals, to space trains and protect against any > opposing trains. Yup. > Prior to CTC, most train movements required a > complicated set of rules and very precisely worded and interpreted train > order forms. Oooo. No. Not complicated. No train orders. You mean to imply that PRR used train orders for all trains until 1968??? (PRR _never_ had "CTC rules" on the books.) No. PRR had a great love of unidirectional signalling and track with a defined direction of travel, much more so than other railroads. This is one of the reasons they installed relatively little "CTC" as we know it today. > Under CTC or TCS rules, if the signal does not say "Stop," > you can go. Also under MBS and ABS rules .... > Whether the signal says stop is the responsibility of the > Dispatcher or CTC operator. The Dispatcher at a given location may or > may not actually control the CTC machine. Under Pennsy, did not. Tower operators did it. > The latest PRR Rule book I have is from 1956, which contains a set of > rules, 251, 253, and 254, for "Movement of Trains in the Same Direction > by Block Signals." This _MAY_ have been for the implementation of PRR's > early CTC or stretches of track with remote interlockings, as the rules > were in effect only where designated by timetable instruction. I have > not looked in the timetables for locations where these rules applied. As a general rule on PRR, 251 was in effect anywhere that ABS rules (500 series) were in effect. 251 is unidirectional signalling. There was a parallel set of rules, 261-...264 (I think), for bidirectional. This is why engineers/tower ops/others often refer to "251 territory" or "261 territory". > By the time of the Penn Central, Rulebook CT-400 dated April 28, 1968, > Rules 251-154 were still in the book, but a separate section of Traffic > Control System Rules (450-462) had been added. Different reason. (See below) > My point is that the significant difference with CTC was that train > movements were made by signal indication rather than Train Order. OK. Here's what I really meant. (Steve got close. Very close. But not quite.) On tracks signalled in both directions, Pennsy would call them: 261 ABS rules with the current of traffic [ABS] ABS rules against the current of traffic [ABSact] assigned direction eastbound (for example) whereas unidirectional track, for comparison, was: 251 ABS MBSact assigned direction eastbound whereas NYC would call their bidirectional track: 261 TCS rules [no assigned direction] _THIS_ is why the extra column was added to the rules page in PC timetables. If you examine the western divisions, you will see that _only_ ex-NYC tracks have the "X" in the TCS column, and _only_ ex-PRR tracks have the "X" in the ABS and ABSact columns. The only distinction I can find is that PRR still assigned a 'default' direction of traffic, whereas NYC did not bother. At any rate, NOW you're ALL asleep. Sorry. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: WANTED: Electric Loco Numerical Roster Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 07:59:42 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1055 I am working on a database project and need a numerical roster of all PRR electric locos. The list must include Class and should include builder and year of build. (Similar to diesel list originally compiled by Rich Orr.) If anyone has this info, I would appreciate talking with you about getting a copy. If not, would anyone care to take on this project from the data entry standpoint? I'd give you the format parameters. Culmination will result in an online database with a graphical interface which will even include unit photos. I have the diesel version just about ready to go. I also have the data on hand for cabin cars. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: WANTED: Steam Loco Numerical Roster Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 07:59:53 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1050 I am working on a database project and need a numerical roster of all PRR steam locos. The list must include Class and should include builder and year of build. (Similar to diesel list originally compiled by Rich Orr.) If anyone has this info, I would appreciate talking with you about getting a copy. If not, would anyone care to take on this project from the data entry standpoint? I'd give you the format parameters. Culmination will result in an online database with a graphical interface which will even include unit photos. I have the diesel version just about ready to go. I also have the data on hand for cabin cars. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 19 Feb 98 09:05:15 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels/CTC Content-Length: 1874 Mark D Bej wrote: >They did _not_ build 2 tunnels of 4 tracks only to cut to 3 tracks. They >built 4 tracks, cut to 2, thru one tunnel, then to 3 thru the valley. >The tunnel was a bottleneck, so they built _another_ tunnel of 2 tracks, >and made the transition point west of the tunnels, at SPRUCE tower, and >never got around to widening the cuts and bridges from SPRUCE to >FORGE to 4 tracks. Sorry everybody, I 'misspoke myself', to paraphrase Ron Zeigler. I SHOULD have said, four tracks *routed through two double-track tunnels*. I apologize for confusion engendered. Mark, from what you are saying above, the second Spruce Creek tunnel wasn't built until AFTER the four-tracking of most of the Middle division had taken place? I was under the impression from other posts that it was done simultaneously with the four-tracking project. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but, if they went to the trouble of building a second tunnel, why couldn't they have widened the cuts? Was it something to do with an economic downturn around that period, and money was needed in other areas? Seems widening a few cuts would have been less of an engineering challenge than the tunnel work, no matter how hard the rock. Heavy earthmoving equipment (heavy for that time -- steam shovels) and nitro could have been used, rather than black powder and men with picks and shovels. Is it because the cut work would have been in the face of train traffic? I may have answered my own question here, but then, the four-tracking and other earthwork for the rest of the Middle Division had to be done in the face of traffic as well. -- Doug Drew > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 19 Feb 98 09:29:23 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: re: CTC/TCS on PRR Content-Length: 1159 A previous post I did about Spruce Creek was also supposed to contain these questions (hey, it's first thing in the morning, and the coffee cart hasn't come around yet!): Someone in a post on Pennsy's CTC installations indicated that the Atglen & Susquehanna was controlled by CTC. I was looking through an old Rails Northeast last night, reading an article about the EMD electrics that Conrail had been testing, that had a map of the electrified zone. This PRR map indicated the A&S was a double track line. -- Was it double track CTC? Seems this kind of application was done only for the busiest of main lines -- was the A&S that busy? -- Was the map old, and the line was converted to CTC sometime later, being changed to single track with sidings? If so, when was it converted? Sorry, I don't have any ETT's of that region of the PRR from any era, so I'm kind of at a disadvantage. -- Thanks for your help, Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels/CTC Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 09:38:41 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2601 On 2/19/98 10:05 AM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: >Mark, from what you are saying above, the second Spruce Creek tunnel >wasn't built until AFTER the four-tracking of most of the Middle division had >taken place? I was under the impression from other posts that it was done >simultaneously with the four-tracking project. >I know I'm beating a dead horse, but, if they went to the trouble of >building a second tunnel, why couldn't they have widened the cuts? Was it >something to do with an economic downturn around that period, and money was >needed in other areas? Seems widening a few cuts would have been less of an >engineering challenge than the tunnel work, no matter how hard the rock. >Heavy earthmoving equipment (heavy for that time -- steam shovels) and >nitro could have been used, rather than black powder and men with picks and >shovels. Is it because the cut work would have been in the face of train >traffic? I may have answered my own question here, but then, the >four-tracking and other earthwork for the rest of the Middle Division had >to be done >in the face of traffic as well. My two cents...all hypothesized... I agree that the original bottleneck was indeed the two track tunnel. The line then ran three tracks to Tyrone. When the majority of the system was four-tracked, the additional tunnel was put in. Although massive excavation "could" have widened the very narrow cuts through stone -- though displacing traffic -- I don't think that was the reason. There are a dozen or so stone bridges between SPRUCE and TYPRONE. They would have had to widen all the bridges as well! When the line went to four tracks, they probably said they could live with the three track TYPRONE to SPRUCE segment due to the incredible cost of widening rock cuts and widening bridges. However, they probably felt that then going down to only two tracks for the tunnel was too much to ask. The question then was, should the new tunnel be one or two tracks. Since it was a new project they decided it worthwhile to go ahead with four, even though there would still be a decrease to three just west of the tunnels. My theory. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 19 Feb 98 10:52:07 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels/CTC Content-Length: 2040 Jerry_Britton wrote: >Although massive excavation "could" have widened the very narrow cuts >through stone -- though displacing traffic -- I don't think that was the >reason. There are a dozen or so stone bridges between SPRUCE and TYPRONE. >They would have had to widen all the bridges as well! Sounds plausible, though bridges would have had to be widened wherever the line was four-tracked on the rest of the division, as well. The Middle division had to cross every tributary on the banks of Juniata the railroad happened to be on (as well as the river itself, several times) between Harrisburg and Altoona, and some of those tributaries were of signficant size. My personal theory is one of the financial panics of the 1890's put a crimp in further funding for this work, and it was found that the line was able to function adequately with this pinch-point, and so it was never 'improved' to match the rest of the division. Sheer guess on my part. A similar situation existed at the Radebaugh tunnel on the Pittsburgh division, where in the later steam era the four track main had to funnel into two tunnels to pass under the hill. I don't know why a second double track tunnel wasn't built there, too, unless both of the tunnels originally were double iron, but one was too restrictive in its clearance, and converted single track. Was the northern tunnel the original one? Given the winding alignment to reach it, I would guess it was. I wish my local college library had Railway Ages going back to the period when this work was being done on the Middle and Pittsburgh divisions -- must have been a colossal undertaking, not far behind the civil engineering and construction required for the Panama Canal. And pulled off by PRRivate enterprise, to boot. -- Doug Drew ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:54:10 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels (long) (fwd) Content-Length: 1238 Mark Bej writes: >They did _not_ build 2 tunnels of 4 tracks only to cut to 3 tracks. They >built 4 tracks, cut to 2, thru one tunnel, then to 3 thru the valley. >The tunnel was a bottleneck, so they built _another_ tunnel of 2 tracks, >and made the transition point west of the tunnels, at SPRUCE tower, and >never got around to widening the cuts and bridges from SPRUCE to >FORGE to 4 tracks. ===== There we see an important truth about railroad historian activities: never presume that something was done all at once in an orderly manner to a logical plan. All too often, the intent may be sound, but things just never quite work out due to unforseen circumstances (WW2, the PC bankruptcy). One can but try, I guess. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: narm@scsn.net (Nolan Armstrong -- Donnelly) Subject: FS:books Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:33:51 GMT Content-Length: 703 I have the following books for sale: 1- The Pennsylvania Railroad - A pictorial history by Edwin P. Alexander (1967) 2- The Locomotives that Baldwin built by Fred Westing (1966) 3- American Locomotives - A pictorial record of steam power, 1900-1950 by Edwin P. Alexander (1950) 4- Trains - An illustrated history of locomotive development by S.P. Gordon. (1976) All books in very good condition. $50.00 for all four books plus shipping. If interested reply to narm@scsn.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:44:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels/CTC Content-Length: 1383 On 19 Feb 1998, Doug Drew wrote: > A similar situation existed at the Radebaugh tunnel on the Pittsburgh > division, where in the later steam era the four track main had to funnel into > two tunnels to pass under the hill. I don't know why a second double > track tunnel wasn't built there, too, unless both of the tunnels originally > were double iron, but one was too restrictive in its clearance, and > converted single track. Was the northern tunnel the original one? Given the > winding alignment to reach it, I would guess it was. Yes, it was. The newer tunnel (the daylighted one) was on a later "alignment straightening" which if I recall happened about the same time the alignmnet was changed: -through Irwin, resulting in the old main line becoming a secondary -between Ardara and Trafford, resulting in the right of way of what's now PA 993 between those two becoming available (and supposedly a tunnel on that daylighted by the state) the old "rainbow-style" bridge into North Irwin over the original main line near Irwin was just recently torn out and is being replaced with a concrete culvert that nothing will pass through -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels/CTC (fwd) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:46:42 EST Content-Length: 1592 > >They did _not_ build 2 tunnels of 4 tracks only to cut to 3 tracks. > They > >built 4 tracks, cut to 2, thru one tunnel, then to 3 thru the valley. > >The tunnel was a bottleneck, so they built _another_ tunnel of 2 tracks, > >and made the transition point west of the tunnels, at SPRUCE tower, and > >never got around to widening the cuts and bridges from SPRUCE to > >FORGE to 4 tracks. > Mark, from what you are saying above, the second Spruce Creek tunnel > wasn't built until AFTER the four-tracking of most of the Middle division had > taken place? I was under the impression from other posts that it was done > simultaneously with the four-tracking project. No, same time as I recall. My 3 tracks above is probably a mistake. Let me try to restate the chronology. 1) Two track entire Middle Division, and only 1 tunnel of 2 tracks. 2) Four-tracking takes place east of Spruce Creek tunnel. 3) At same time or soon thereafter, 2 new bridges and 1 new tunnel of 2 tracks opened at Spruce Creek. 4) At same time or soon thereafter, SPRUCE to FORGE widened to 3 tracks but not 4. > traffic? I may have answered my own question here, but then, the > four-tracking and other earthwork for the rest of the Middle Division had > to be done in the face of traffic as well. Also LOTS of stone masonry bridges. Mucho bucks-o. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: re: CTC/TCS on PRR (fwd) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:06:27 EST Content-Length: 1259 > Someone in a post on Pennsy's CTC installations indicated that the Atglen > & Susquehanna was controlled by CTC. > I was looking through an old Rails Northeast last night, reading an > article about the EMD electrics that Conrail had been testing, that had a map > of the electrified zone. This PRR map indicated the A&S was a double track > line. A&S was double track all the way. > -- Was it double track CTC? Seems this kind of application was done only > for the busiest of main lines -- was the A&S that busy? It was busy, and part of it was controlled by a CTC-style machine (I believe US&S) at COLA tower in Columbia. But. It was not "CTC" in the usual sense of that term. A&S Br. was unidirectionally signalled nearly the entire distance, with the only exception being, _I think_, at/around Columbia itself. > -- Was the map old, and the line was converted to CTC sometime later, > being changed to single track with sidings? No, never was. Went from double track to abandoned (where abandoned). -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Parkton, Md. Questions Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 15:46:40 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1218 While early "locals" covered the entire Baltimore <-> Harrisburg segment of the Northern Central Railway, in later years the locals only extended from Baltimore north to Parkton, Md., one stop short of New Freedom, Pa. In 1954, when I am modeling, there were six locals each way per day. According to the ETT, they were gas-electrics (doodlebugs), though I may model some E6's as they were used previously. Does anyone know, were there turning facilities (wye, turntable) at Parkton? My charts end at New Freedom. I do know that there were more than two through tracks at the station, and that there were some storage tracks north of the station. There is also a signal bridge north of the station and single signals in the area of the station. (I have Gunnarson's book on the NCRy.) Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cleaned up Steam & Elec Class Lists / Etc. Date: Thu, 19 Feb 98 15:55:54 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1193 About two weeks ago I announced the posting of Class reference lists for both Steam and Electric locomotives under my Motive Ops section (http://prr.dsop.com/motiveops). I had solicited input and corrections as I do not have very much source material. Thanks to those who sent in missing data. I have no entered all of the changes. I am sure there will be many more, but the Class lists should be reasonably complete. The rosters for each class will be next. BTW: There was some confusion over whether or not one of the Classes was called an "Isabel". No! But the question is answered in the book "Black Diamonds-Black Gold" which has a photo of a locomotive which was named "Isabel". (Meaning that it was a single unit that had a name in addition to its official number.) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:40:26 EST Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Content-Length: 332 In response to an associated question: Allied Cushion trucks were banned from interchange service in 1955. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:33:58 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: Spruce Creek Tunnels/CTC Content-Length: 686 >When the line went to four tracks, they probably said they could live >with the three track TYPRONE to SPRUCE segment due to the incredible cost >of widening rock cuts and widening bridges. One must remember, too, that the TUNNEL-FORGE segment probably accounted for the least amount of local traffic on the middle division, so there was not a lot of this type of traffic to interfere with mainline trains, hence this helped them get away w/ 3 tracks. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: CTC/TCS on PRR (fwd) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:39:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 2353 Mark D Bej wrote: > > Someone in a post on Pennsy's CTC installations indicated that the Atglen > > & Susquehanna was controlled by CTC. > > It was busy, and part of it was controlled by a CTC-style machine (I > believe US&S) at COLA tower in Columbia. But. It was not "CTC" in the > usual sense of that term. A&S Br. was unidirectionally signalled > nearly the entire distance, with the only exception being, _I think_, > at/around Columbia itself. It was a US&S machine, same type as the one at Thorn -- according to the manufacturer's tag on the machine, it is a: CENTRALIZED TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEM MANUFACTURED BY THE UNION SWITCH & SIGNAL CO. SWISSVAILE, PA. MADE IN U.S.A. PATENTS PENDING This being on a 1"x3" metal plate fastened to the cabinet. These machines were code-relay type machines, except for the local interlocking which was direct-wire control. What this means is that controls for the local interlocking (Cola, or Thorn) were directly wired to the field relay equipment -- there was no code generation in the control machine (and no neat ka-chunk, ka-chunk, ka-chunkchunkchunk sounds :-). For the remote interlockings, a code generator would send signals to the field via code line (that's the interlocking machine making the neat sounds of relay contacts picking up and dropping), which would then be handled by a decoder at the remote interlocking and then fed to the field relay circuitry. A _Railway Age_ article in the 11/12/1938 issue describes the installation of Cola and Thorn, with track diagrams of the territories covered by the two towers. Both installations were part of the electrification project. I believe the Port Road section of the Cola machine was added later, extending the size of the machine -- I was only in Cola a few times, in the 79-80-81 timeframe, so my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to recall that there was room enough for two operators to sit at the machine. The Thorn machine would only seat one comfortably (which I can attest to by personal experience, mostly third tricks :-b ). Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: Eastern PA Steam Assignment Question Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:34:38 -0500 Content-Length: 392 Anyone know what typical PRR steam power was on the northern end of the BelDel and around Wilkes-Barre in the 1950s? Bill Gripp wgripp@prius.jnj.com (908) 429-6118 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:59:32 EST Subject: Re: CTC/TCS on PRR Content-Length: 651 In a message dated 98-02-19 09:41:44 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: > was the A&S that busy? I would say so. Virtually all of the westward freight traffic from NY-NJ-Philly used it. I can't help you in connection with the CTC aspects, but I can tell you that, at least from the early 1960's onward, there were no manned block stations on the A&S except for Park and Cola, at the two ends of the branch. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:59:31 EST Subject: Re: special stops in E. Pittsburgh . . . and elsewhere Content-Length: 577 In a message dated 98-02-19 00:19:12 EST, cupper@ibm.net writes: >while oral history interviews shine. Of course, the mighty Broadway never allowed the lowly monthly-commuter tickets. Except for a contingent of "undocumented" regulars who rode Paoli-New York in the lounge, and who handsomely took care of the conductor at Christmas time! Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:14:18 -0500 Content-Length: 791 Okay here's what we have compiled so far: 2DF4 - Red Caboose 2DF8 - Kadee # 517, Sunshine Models # 2DF8C - 2DF12 - Bowser # 74190, Sunshine Models # 2DF13 - P2K # 21255, Eastern Car Works # 9057(?) (National Type B) 2DF17 - 2DF19 - Similar to the 2DF12 2DF19D - 2DF22 - 2DF22C - 2DF28 - 2DF31 - 2DF32 - Modified Athearn REA Express # Other trucks mentioned, PRR class not identified: Allied Full Cushioned (banned from interchange service in 1955.) ASF A-3 - Kato # 31601, Kadee # 504 Crown 70 ton - Bowser # 74018 Bowser Cabin Car # 74055 Joe ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Eastern PA Steam Assignment Question Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:14:42 -0500 Content-Length: 1147 I don't know about the BelDel but the Sunbury to Wilkes-Barre Passenger trains usually had E class power. The Pennsy Steam years books show an L-1 in Wilkes-Barre and also a picture of an M-1 which was identified as having brought a train in from Enola. I'm sure there was also an H-9 around as well. Joe ---------- > From: Gripp, William [NCS] > To: 'Mailing List: PRR' > Subject: Eastern PA Steam Assignment Question > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 4:34 PM > > Anyone know what typical PRR steam power was on the northern end of the > BelDel and around Wilkes-Barre in the 1950s? > > Bill Gripp > wgripp@prius.jnj.com > (908) 429-6118 > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: CTC/TCS on PRR (fwd) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:33:20 EST Content-Length: 629 > I can't help you in connection > with the CTC aspects, but I can tell you that, at least from > the early 1960's onward, there were no manned block stations > on the A&S except for Park and Cola, at the two ends of the > branch. > > Rich Copeland Rich, the signal aspects (if that's what you mean) are the regular PRR ABS aspects. I.e., everything except Clear Block and Permissive Block. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:42:37 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: CTC/TCS on PRR (fwd) Content-Length: 929 On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Ken Reinert wrote: > It was a US&S machine, same type as the one at Thorn -- according to > the manufacturer's tag on the machine, it is a: > > CENTRALIZED TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEM > MANUFACTURED BY > THE UNION SWITCH & SIGNAL CO. > SWISSVAILE, PA. MADE IN U.S.A. > PATENTS PENDING This reminds me, when I was younger my grandfather somehow arranged that we could go to an "open house" of sorts at US&S. Interestingly, not the grandfather who had worked there; He passed away when i was 3. I didn't understand the magnitude of a lot of what I saw until later, and by then US&S had mostly moved out; Now there's a shopping center on the land. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:54:45 EST Subject: Re: Question about ballast Content-Length: 861 I use Woodland Scenics Gray blend as a start. Weather it with some grime and earth then use oily black along side the rails on sections that would be subject to heavy braking , in the center where engines tend to sit . On uphill tracks to give the impression of sanding some extra earth color helps. These are all Floquil colors. I looked at Smith and Son ballast but couldn't find one that suited what color I was looking for. One thing to remember is that ballast was darker in the steam era with all the cinders from passing loco's. Diesels and electrics wouldn't effect the ballast as much with contamination I believe. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:12:28 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's (added info.) Content-Length: 1352 Joe Gotaskie wrote: > > Okay here's what we have compiled so far: > > 2DF4 - Red Caboose > 2DF8 - Kadee # 517, Sunshine Models # > 2DF8C - > 2DF12 - Bowser # 74190, Sunshine Models # > 2DF13 - P2K # 21255, Eastern Car Works # 9057(?) (National Type B) > 2DF17 - > 2DF19 - Similar to the 2DF12 > 2DF19D - > 2DF22 - > 2DF22C - > 2DF28 - > 2DF31 - > 2DF32 - Modified Athearn REA Express # > > Other trucks mentioned, PRR class not identified: > > Allied Full Cushioned (banned from interchange service in 1955.) > ASF A-3 - Kato # 31601, Kadee # 504 > Crown 70 ton - Bowser # 74018 > Bowser Cabin Car # 74055 > > Joe > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". The Athearn express reefer truck is part #53308 and sells retails for $2.00/pr. To make a 2DF32 from it, the only modification needed is to round off the top ends of the cast pedistals to remove what I presume is their representation of an end brake beam. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 19 Feb 1998 15:57:17 -0500 From: "Gilleran, Brian" Subject: Hello!!... Content-Length: 1455 Hello, PRR-Talkers: I've just joined the list, and already I'm getting spammed! Yuck! One of my favorite PRR subjects is the Late, Great Pennsylvania Station in NYCity. I have the book by that name, as well as Fred Westing's book. Is there anyone out there that has (or knows of someone who does) photos of Penn Station featuring the interior - Main Waiting Room, Arcades or the Steel-and-glass vaulted platform area? I was just 7 years old when Penn Station started to come down (1963), and as such never saw it. Nonetheless, it fascinates me. Would love to see photos that help to communicate this Gateway to NYCity. On another track, I would like to know if there's anyone out there who can help a Terminally Fumblefingered SPF (me) to correctly and successfully install Train-Phone aerials on my HO P2K PRR single-stripe E8s? These beauties fairly cry out to be properly adorned with Keystone-correct rooftop regalia. BTW, am I the only one having trouble keeping the floating axle bearing boxes on these E8s? They seem to fall off at will. Otherwise, these are great engines. Also, how best to add DCC to these, so I can wow 'em at my local model RR club? Thanks for helping to keep the PRR alive... ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: How far from Harrisburg/York? Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 07:50:33 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 701 In the interest of local railfanning, get-togethers, or operating sessions, I'd be interested in knowing how many "PRR-Talk"ers are relatively close to my location. I am located halfway between Harrisburg and York, Pa., on Interstate 83. How many people are within an hour of Harrisburg / York? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:45:11 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: re: CTC/TCS on PRR (fwd) Content-Length: 1973 >> -- Was it double track CTC? Seems this kind of application was done only >> for the busiest of main lines -- was the A&S that busy? > >It was busy, and part of it was controlled by a CTC-style machine (I >believe US&S) at COLA tower in Columbia. But. It was not "CTC" in the >usual sense of that term. A&S Br. was unidirectionally signalled >nearly the entire distance, with the only exception being, _I think_, >at/around Columbia itself. > I have the 1938 Railway Age article on this - very nice! The A&S was unidirectionally signalled from Columbia to Thorndate, but the Westbound track was bidirectionally signalled from Shock Mills to Columbia to allow Columbia Branch trains to move east when the eastbound tracks were occupied. Of course, the sidings such as Lake siding were bidirectional. BTW, the port road was "single track ATC" bidirectionally signaled, including cab signals. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRRMO.html _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 9:13:28 -0600 Subject: HO GP-9B Conversion Kit Content-Length: 537 There have been several recent postings regarding an HO GP-9B conversion kit. General concensus seems to be that the kit is a good one. I either missed or trashed any message that stated who makes the kit and where it is available. I would appreciate knowing the price and where I can get one. TIA Bill Laird ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: HARRIS Tower Event Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 13:02:04 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 712 Anyone going to that HARRIS tower open house tomorrow? I'm thinking about it. (Was announced last week that HARRIS tower, owned by the Harrisburg Chapter NRHS, is having a public open house for train watching from 11 a.m.-3 p.m. HARRIS controlled the northen side of the passenger station at Harrisburg.) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Rails Northeast Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 13:09:30 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 661 Can anyone tell me the year range that "Rails Northeast" was published by Bob Reid? I just picked up 30 or so issues from Jeremey Helms from 1976-1980. Not sure yet if they are inclusive or not...just got 'em yesterday and haven't finished salivating yet! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: How far from Harrisburg/York? (fwd) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:44:25 EST Content-Length: 624 > In the interest of local railfanning, get-togethers, or operating > sessions, I'd be interested in knowing how many "PRR-Talk"ers are > relatively close to my location. Jerry, I would not be averse to having access to a US map showing where we all live, if others would be game. For security reasons, I'd make it an item only reachable by password, or else individually mailed to people. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Schoenberg Subject: FW: PRR E44 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:38:56 -0500 Content-Length: 1069 If you haven't heard, here's some info on the E44 at Strasburg... forwarded message.... From: Carl G. Perelman [SMTP:RPnews@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 4:27 PM To: RPnews@worldnet.att.net Subject: PRR E44 Last Saturday, Amtrak painted E44 502 began a journey to restoration. The unit was moved from Strasburg to Altoona's Juniata Shops for restoration to Pennsylvania Railroad Brunswick Green and return to its orignal number, 4465. The unit began life as PRR 4465 (in Brunswick Green), then became PC 4465 and eventually Conrail 4465. Upon retirement from Conrail, the unit was purchased by Amtrak and numbered 502. Strasburg received the unit from Amtrak. The unit hit the paint shop yesterday, 2-17-98, at 13:00. PRR 4465 should emerge from Juniata sometime in the coming week! Kevin Burkholder ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:25:20 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: Special stops... and more Content-Length: 891 In connection with this thread, I would like to share the following. In the Summer of 1938, the young lady who would become my mother was employed as a governess (nanny) by a wealthy family in the Princeton, NJ, area, and accompanied them on a summer vacation trip to Maine. Her employers had some connections and were able to facilitate a special stop at Princeton Jct. of the only through sleeper train to Portland. I assume this was the "State of Maine Express." The event had particular significance to me, as this was the summer in which she met the young man who would become my father ! - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 21:16 20-Feb-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:25:18 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: PRRT&HS Convention. Content-Length: 564 On 18 Feb James R Hunter wrote: >> The PRR T&HS convention begins on May 1 and runs through the morning of May 3 in Lancaster.<< Would they consider holding one in Scranton ? Well... back in 1930 there WAS a through parlor car from Philadelphia via Trenton and Stroudsburg . - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 20:50 20-Feb-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:52:28 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: PRR books on eBay auction Content-Length: 829 I have put a few books up for auction: Pennsy Diesel Years Vol 1 (Morning Sun Color Book) http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6640800 Pennsy Diesel Years Vol 2 (Morning Sun Color Book) http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6640942 PRR Rolling Sotck Vol I Diners http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6641256 Also Steel cabooses of the C&O http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6640159 and NYC Modern Steam Power http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6640358 (hey, ya gotta know the competition!) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:52:21 EST Subject: Re: How far from Harrisburg/York? (fwd) Content-Length: 538 In a message dated 98-02-20 18:25:34 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: >I would not be averse to having access to a US map showing where we >all live, if others would be game. I concur. I don't even think security would be a problem if we are just dealing with town names rather than exact addresses. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:16:25 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: How far from Harrisburg/York? (fwd) Content-Length: 868 I also have no problems with location maps. Aloha, Eric At 11:52 PM 2/20/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-20 18:25:34 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > >>I would not be averse to having access to a US map showing where we >>all live, if others would be game. > >I concur. I don't even think security would be a problem if we >are just dealing with town names rather than exact addresses. > >Rich Copeland > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:24:53 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Cab Calaway Private Car Content-Length: 415 Aloha, A friend just asked if I could try to find out information about a private car owned or used by cab calaway. I don't know if it ever was on the PRR but this is a start. Thanks, Mahalo Eric ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Map of Subscribers Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 07:54:27 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 834 I will delelop a survey which will result in a "voluntary" directory of subscribers. It will include their geographic location and, if appropriate, a map. Many people have responded positively about Mark's suggestion. Of course, I did get one response that asked me to "quit SPAMming the list" because my request about the "proximity of people to Harrisburg" had nothing to do with the Pennsy! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:23:55 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: How far from Harrisburg/York? (fwd) Content-Length: 1348 Greetings, All my e-mail correspondence is signed with my name, city and state. I don't see where this is a problem. If someone wants to look the city up on a map that shouldn't be too hard. If you know the persons name and domain you can find their address by accessing one of the various search engines on the net. Anyone who is listed in any phone book can be located this way. Anyway I think this is a good idea, gives everyone a bit more info on who is posting.... At 11:52 PM 2/20/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-20 18:25:34 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > >>I would not be averse to having access to a US map showing where we >>all live, if others would be game. > >I concur. I don't even think security would be a problem if we >are just dealing with town names rather than exact addresses. > >Rich Copeland > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:36:13 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: trainphone antenna information Content-Length: 410 Greetings, Was there any specific dimension for spacing the antennae supports? What size pipe or conduit was used to house the wire? Help!!! Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCS]" Subject: RE: Eastern PA Steam Assignment Question Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 15:08:56 -0500 Content-Length: 652 Glad to hear the L1 2-8-2s and M1 4-8-2s made it that way. Did I1 2-10-0s or N2sa 2-10-2s ever make it to Wilkes-Barre? > > >I don't know about the BelDel but the Sunbury to Wilkes-Barre Passenger >trains usually had E class power. The Pennsy Steam years books show an L-1 >in Wilkes-Barre and also a picture of an M-1 which was identified as having >brought a train in from Enola. I'm sure there was also an H-9 around as >well. > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:58:16 -0500 From: Vincent Troia Subject: Re: N scale news Content-Length: 1686 Hello PRR fans, I beginning a new layout, my first experience with N scale, and deliberating over which period to model. After reading Mr. Helms remarks ( I am about a month behind on my e-mail ), It seems the modern period is certainly an option. I was hoping the group could advise if the PRR transition period is supported well in N scale. In addition, could someone summarize the motor power that is available for the 1950 - 1957 period. Thank you in advance, Vincent Troia Monaca, PA Jeremy C Helms wrote: > Hello all, > ... > And also to those pessimists about N-scale. It seems to me to be the > best scale for modeling the PRR 4 track "Broad Way" in the period of > 1965-1968. Think of it. All those Micro trains cars and the engines > available like ALCo PA, PB, RS3; GE U25B; EMD GP7, GP9, GP30, GP35, SD40, > SD45, SD9, F7A, F7B, E8A, E7A, E7B, SW9...(I am probably missing some of > the engines that are or were available...sorry). > > Jeremy Helms > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:49:32 -0500 Content-Length: 633 I will review my documentation and include if available, otherwise we'll have to depend on help from the group with this. Joe ---------- > From: Hal6963@aol.com > To: jwg0@netreach.net > Subject: Re: PRR Freight Trucks & X-29's > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 5:22 AM > > List of Trucks > > Would it be possible to add the date when each type of freight trucks first > started being used by the Pennsy? ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: How far from Harrisburg/York? Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:52:55 -0500 Content-Length: 1289 I think I'm at about or close to the one hour mark, this may depend on whether or not the State Troopers are taking a donut break when I'm on the Turnpike! Joe ---------- > From: Jerry_Britton > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: How far from Harrisburg/York? > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 6:50 AM > > In the interest of local railfanning, get-togethers, or operating > sessions, I'd be interested in knowing how many "PRR-Talk"ers are > relatively close to my location. > > I am located halfway between Harrisburg and York, Pa., on Interstate 83. > > How many people are within an hour of Harrisburg / York? > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:09:23 EST Subject: Old Timetables and stuff Content-Length: 1746 I purchased several really great timetable at the Jacksonville Train Show this weekend while attending the ACL/SAL Historical Society meeting. I will post some of the information from time to time if anyone is interested. 1. Pennsylvania Lines 1897 Public Time Table NY to Chicago including the schedule of the Pennsylvania Limited. The Timetable folds out into a 16" by 28" system wide full color map. This is a real treasure but very fragile, I plan on mounting it fully open in a sandwich of library grade clear plastic. 2. Middle Division Employees Timetable for 1951. Lots of great operational information including Iceing and livestock watering facilities at Huntingdon. This fits the Era of PRRMO. 3. Pennsylvania Railroad 1946 Public Timetable "Through Train Service to the South." 4. Pennsylvania Railroad Public 1952 Timetable (Form 1) the one with the Full Color Painting of Horseshoe Curve. 5. 1908 Postcard of the westbound Pennsylvania Limited stopped at the trainshed in Altoona with the Logan House in the background. 6. 1915? Postcard of the eastbound Broadway Limited apparently just entering the Barree Straight with the mountains of the Spruce Creek area rising in the background. The train is pulled by a K series locomotive with an oil headlamp. I can scan some of the color stuff if Jerry or someone else would be interested in posting it to a web page. Anyone with questions that my be answered by these documents please feel free to ask. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:23:24 EST Subject: Re: WANTED: Electric Loco Numerical Roster Content-Length: 309 Jerry: See page 126 Pennsy Electric Years by Bill Volkmer published by Morning Sun. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:26:12 EST Subject: Re: WANTED: Steam Loco Numerical Roster Content-Length: 540 If this is accomplished it will be a first. The steam locomotive roster was liberally renumbered many times. The only accurate way to track steam is by builders numbers. The road number may be a dozen or more different locomotives including classes. The exact match is wholly dependent on the day in question. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Our locations / map Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:37:51 EST Content-Length: 993 > All my e-mail correspondence is signed with my name, city and state. I > don't see where this is a problem. If someone wants to look the city up on > a map that shouldn't be too hard. This was not at all the point. The point was for people to be able to look at a map and figure out that there are 4-5 other PRR-Talk-ers nearby and be able to get together with them. Or to figure out where PRR-Talk-ers are scattered near interstates that you travel frequently. > If you know the persons name and domain you can find their address by > accessing one of the various search engines on the net. Untrue. Try figuring out where someone works by getting the address for ibm.com ... or by writing to postmaster@ibm.com ... -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: Eastern PA Steam Assignment Question Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:31:57 -0500 Content-Length: 1467 Joe Gotaskie answered Bill Gripp's query on Sunbury: >I don't know about the BelDel but the Sunbury to Wilkes-Barre Passenger >trains usually had E class power. The Pennsy Steam years books show an L-1 >in Wilkes-Barre and also a picture of an M-1 which was identified as having >brought a train in from Enola. I'm sure there was also an H-9 around as >well. >> Anyone know what typical PRR steam power was on the northern end of the >> BelDel and around Wilkes-Barre in the 1950s? E6s at the end of the service to Stroudsburg in 1952. I was very young at the time but recall seeing steam locomotives along the mountain at Manunka Chunk Junction where my family vacationed in the summer. Passenger service was cut back to Phillipsburg (the Stroudsburg train was Sundays only) and I suspect that E's lasted a bit longer. The Trenton-P'burg service was covered at the very end by a doodlebug that handled the one RT until 10/26/60. K4s and H9s also ran on the branch. One of my favorite lines and there are still some points where you can drive the right of way or adjacent to it and appreciate what breathtaking views the passengers had. Made Complete Richard F. Makse Twinney Pond Associates maxrail@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: NW Indiana expert Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 0:45:42 EST Content-Length: 406 Got a question asked of me, now on my New Questions page, for a NW Indiana and/or passenger train expert to answer ... http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Questions/new.html -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:24:07 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Passenger cars by Athearn Content-Length: 537 Greetings, Have been visiting J. Brittons web site Noticed the modeling information by Andy Miller @ has no mention of the passenger cars by Athearn. My question, are none of these cars suitable for modeling PRR equipment? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Passenger cars by Athearn From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 09:53:30 -0500 Content-Length: 1521 Right! None of these cars are suitable for PRR. In fact, being shorties, none of them are suitable for modeling anything! The HW baggage and Baggage/RPO may have a prototype somewhere, but not on the PRR. I've heard that the HW coaches are patterned after SP commuter cars, but of course, shortened. I have spliced two streamlined observation cars to full lenghth and replaced most of the windows to make a FEC observation for the Champion. But that is the limit of what I will use Athearn cars for. Curiosly, the very short streamlined RPO may have a prototype on the SF. I've seen fotos of very short streamlined RPOs on the SF, but never was interested enough to find out if the Athearn length was correct. regards Andy Miller - -------- Greetings, Have been visiting J. Brittons web site Noticed the modeling information by Andy Miller @ has no mention of the passenger cars by Athearn. My question, are none of these cars suitable for modeling PRR equipment? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. - ------------------------------------------------------------ For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 09:10:57 CST Subject: Re: Parkton, Md. Questions Content-Length: 1470 On Thu, 19 Feb 98 15:46:40 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >While early "locals" covered the entire Baltimore <-> Harrisburg segment >of the Northern Central Railway, in later years the locals only extended >from Baltimore north to Parkton, Md., one stop short of New Freedom, Pa. > >In 1954, when I am modeling, there were six locals each way per day. >According to the ETT, they were gas-electrics (doodlebugs), though I may >model some E6's as they were used previously. > >Does anyone know, were there turning facilities (wye, turntable) at >Parkton? > >My charts end at New Freedom. I do know that there were more than two >through tracks at the station, and that there were some storage tracks >north of the station. There is also a signal bridge north of the station >and single signals in the area of the station. (I have Gunnarson's book >on the NCRy.) Hi, all, There was a book published recently by the Baltimore Chapter of the NRHS (?? ) on the Stewartstown RR which connected to the PRR at New Freedom. There were a number of track charts in it for New Freedom. A nice book, too. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Sunbury<->Wilkes-Barre? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:46:02 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1175 There used to be a PRR branch from Sunbury to Wilkes-Barre (see http://prr.dsop.com/maps/images/map_prr_1965.jpg), and I have read that the Pennsy interchanged freight with the D&H at Wilkes-Barre, but I recently noticed that in the Conrail dissection maps that line now appears to be owned by CP (see http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/penn.html and http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/bridge.html). This line figures prominently in NS's plans for reaching New England and Eastern Canada. Is this supposition correct? If so, when did this line get sold, who sold it (PRR, PC, CR) and who was it sold to (D&H, Guilford, or CP)? Or was it even more contorted than that? Thanks! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Sunbury<->Wilkes-Barre? (fwd) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:10:00 EST Content-Length: 1377 > There used to be a PRR branch from Sunbury to Wilkes-Barre > (see http://prr.dsop.com/maps/images/map_prr_1965.jpg), and Yes. > I have read that the Pennsy interchanged freight with the > D&H at Wilkes-Barre, Yes. See the several freight schedules that I have recently posted on my web site, viz., http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ that start/end in Buttonwood Yard, Wilkes-Barre, etc. > but I recently noticed that in the > Conrail dissection maps that line now appears to be owned by > CP (see http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/penn.html > and http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/bridge.html). And http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Conrail/ Yes. > Is this supposition correct? If so, when did this line get > sold, who sold it (PRR, PC, CR) and who was it sold to > (D&H, Guilford, or CP)? Or was it even more contorted than > that? It got sold to D&H. I don't know exactly when, I suspect at the start of Conrail. I know that it was already D&H by the time I was undergoing my stints at Geisinger Hospital in the bustling metropolis of Danville, Pa. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:03:18 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: "Edgar Allan Poe"? Content-Length: 421 Noted the ads for the Bachman HO 10-1-2 Pullmans in HO. The PRR version is "Edgar Allan Poe". Since we've already established the PRR owned none of these, what sort of car carried said name, if any? -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: "Edgar Allan Poe"? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 15:33:50 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1018 On 2/23/98 4:03 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG) wrote: >Noted the ads for the Bachman HO 10-1-2 Pullmans in HO. The PRR version is >"Edgar Allan Poe". Since we've already established the PRR owned none of >these, what sort of car carried said name, if any? Strictly from memory, I believe there is a photo in Tilp & Blardone's "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Equipment Painting and Lettering". Also, from memory, 99% sure it was a heavyweight. Believe Andy Miller previously stated that the PRR version was a 1-10-2, with the rooms being in a different order than that provided by Bachmann. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:10:56 EST Subject: Re: "Edgar Allan Poe"? Content-Length: 662 In a message dated 98-02-23 15:05:48 EST, D writes : << Noted the ads for the Bachman HO 10-1-2 Pullmans in HO. The PRR version is "Edgar Allan Poe". Since we've already established the PRR owned none of these, what sort of car carried said name, if any? >> "Edgar Allen Poe" was a Pennsy 12 section 1 drawing room Pullman. In other words, the Rivarossi car, the most common type of Pullman. At least it was in Tuscan red. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WBKosin@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:47:18 EST Subject: Re: Sunbury<->Wilkes-Barre? Content-Length: 1301 To Denis and the group, The Sunbury-Wikes-Barre branch was abandoned by the PC after the disasterous flood of 1972,But it was rebuilt with the help of the federal government and then conveyed to the D&H when that line expanded and they ran a couple of freights a day up to and including the Guilford years. When CP took over the D&H they ran trains 555-556 on this line and for some reason switched often from running this route to running on Conrail's Lehigh Line from Dupont Pa. to Allentown.(Now Reading and Northern's Lehigh Line.) However,right now even as we speak CP, with the financial help of NS is in the process of rebuilding this line. I have been told that they want it up to 50MPH status. The plan is that when the merger goes into effect, NS will run 6 or so trains a day from Harrisburg Pa. to Albany NY. and hand them off to Guilford who will distribute to New England. Just a personal observation but I think that this routing will save a lot of time and should be a lot quicker than the CSX routing to New England. David R. Kosin WBKosin@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:11:17 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Found Truck-train trailer Content-Length: 1760 Hi folks.... To show you that you never know where you'll find some of the P.R.R. here is a little story on my P.R.R. find.... Recently i went to a auto junk yard here in Suffolk,Va. The one junk yard i like to go to is near the end of a road past two other junk yards and next to a fourth.... Just before i have to turn into the one i go to there is the fourth junk yard ahead and sitting near the entrance to it was a old red trailer... Upon taking a closer look i found out this was a old P.R.R. Truck-Train Trailer...still in P.R.R. paint and with all its P.R.R. marks on it... In the book "P.R.R. color guide to freight and passenger equipment" by Sweetland and Yanosey(sunset books) there is a trailer almost identical in the back of the book on a TTX flat.Its the 40' box type trailer. I did'nt get a chance to see if the round name plate is still on the sides but the trailer is still in decent shape(a strasburg museum piece perhaps?) and what markings i could see were all very readable. Its still on its frame and tires...perhaps bought for storage for the junk yard. When i get a chance i'll go back and ask about it and see if i can get pictures....I'll also get the number off it while i'm there....Hmmmmmm perhaps if the round plate is there i can take it off and buy it from the junk yard...(probably with some odd looks from the junk yard folks) Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:11:52 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: "Edgar Allan Poe"? Content-Length: 1391 Derrick J Brashear asks: >Noted the ads for the Bachman HO 10-1-2 Pullmans in HO. The PRR version is >"Edgar Allan Poe". Since we've already established the PRR owned none of >these, what sort of car carried said name, if any? > >-D ===== The "Edgar Allen Poe" was a 12-1, Plan 3410B, built 2/29. I suspect they picked that name for dramatic value: someone was going through a list of cars and that one stuck in his mind. ===== Bob Zoeller adds: >"Edgar Allen Poe" was a Pennsy 12 section 1 drawing room Pullman. In other >words, the Rivarossi car, the most common type of Pullman. At least it was in >Tuscan red. ===== Actually, no, it wasn't. The Rivarossi car is a Plan 2410. The 3410s were an upgrade in the concept. Distinguishing features were a different style of carbody end and the overall carbody being about a foot longer. One can but try. Bob Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Anyone have CADrail? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:32:14 EST Content-Length: 381 Anyone on this list have CADrail? Would you mind doing me up a quick drawing? Will buy you 1 round at next PRRTHS convention. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Got High&Wides on your layout? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:39:20 EST Content-Length: 409 Just posted one of 2 high & wide schedules at http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/hw2_1960.html Modelers of the Pgh or Middle Div. may want to note the route taken... -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Sunbury<->Wilkes-Barre? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:57:06 -0500 Content-Length: 1314 > However,right now even as we speak CP, with the financial help of NS is in > the process of rebuilding this line. I have been told that they want it up to > 50MPH status. Here's something in regards to this that a friend forwarded to me from the Conrail Talk list: >The first loaded rail train destined for the D&H Sunbury Main project has >arrived!! RAI-101/SPL-701 combined train departed Hagerstown on February >20, at 19:30 ET with Conrail SD50 6809 and 32 loaded NS MWX rail cars. The >train was delivered to CP-Stoney on the Buffalo Line at 01:08 ET February >21. At 04:30 ET, Conrail symbol SPL-701 departed CP-Stoney behind CP >SD40-2's 5521 and 5418. The pair of CP units had arrived off a light engine >move. This is the first of at least three rail trains scheduled for the >Sunbury Main. This project should be underway next week!! > >Additionally, several other NS scheduled projects on Conrail are to get >underway shortly. Several track projects and switch automation projects >will begin over the next month, mainly on the Harrisburg Line. > Joe ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Passenger cars by Athearn From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:22:29 EST Content-Length: 837 In the very last days of the PRR, the New Haven leased several of the stramlined RPOs from the Santa Fe. I can recall seeing some of these on Mail/Express trains through Princeton Junction in early 1968. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:03:31 -0600 Subject: Re: Anyone have CADrail? Content-Length: 336 I do not have CADrail but I work on CAD 5 days a week at my job. I might be able to do something for you. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:41:26 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: WANTED: Steam and Electric Loco Numerical Roster Content-Length: 1117 Greetings to Jerry and the group, There is a publication that provides all of the information you are seeking. _Keystone Steam and Electric: Record of Steam and Electric Locomotives Built for the PRR Since 1906_ by William D. Edison was printed in 1974 by Wayner Publications. It is a 137 page book that provides a numerical index of all of the PRR steam and electric locomotives and historical data of those built after the turn of the century. The historical data includes original number, any new number, the date of renumbering, class, builder, date built and its fate. I picked up a copy of the book several years ago at what was probably the last "Great Scale Train Show" at the Monroeville Expo Mart outside of Pittsburgh. The Greenburg shows are OK. However, I really miss the Great Scale Train Show and I don't want to drive to Timonium either. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 24 Feb 98 11:57:45 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Sunbury<->Wilkes-Barre? Content-Length: 2335 The line in question is the former DL&W line from Taylor Yard in Scranton to Sunbury on the west shore of the river, not the PRR line from Wilkes-Barre on the east shore. I assume the former PRR line was abandoned by Conrail, as being redundant. I think the DL&W line served more industries, such as the railroad car plant in Berwick. I don't know how much traffic was interchanged with D&H at Wilkes-Barre after the PC merger, as northern New England traffic went via the NYC/Boston and Albany or was interchanged to D&H/B&M near Albany, off the ex-NYC main there. The Sunbury line became property of the D&H (Guilford, really) as part of the deal when Guilford took possession of the former DL&W line between Binghamton and Scranton. When Guilford gave up control of the D&H, this branch eventually became part of what is now the St. Lawrence & Hudson division of CP. --Doug Drew Dennis Rockwell wrote: >There used to be a PRR branch from Sunbury to Wilkes-Barre >(see http://prr.dsop.com/maps/images/map_prr_1965.jpg), and >I have read that the Pennsy interchanged freight with the >D&H at Wilkes-Barre, but I recently noticed that in the >Conrail dissection maps that line now appears to be owned by >CP (see http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/penn.html >and http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/bridge.html). >This line figures prominently in NS's plans for reaching New >England and Eastern Canada. > >Is this supposition correct? If so, when did this line get >sold, who sold it (PRR, PC, CR) and who was it sold to >(D&H, Guilford, or CP)? Or was it even more contorted than >that? > >Thanks! > >Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA > _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ >####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### > >I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:48:09 EST Subject: Re: WANTED: Steam and Electric Loco Numerical Roster Content-Length: 783 In a message dated 98-02-24 10:51:23 EST, Drew McGhee writes: << There is a publication that provides all of the information you are seeking. _Keystone Steam and Electric: Record of Steam and Electric Locomotives Built for the PRR Since 1906_ by William D. Edison was printed in 1974 by Wayner Publications. >> Just saw one for sale at the Madison, Wisconsin, trainshow over the weekend. Wish I could tell you the name of the dealer. Not on my list of things to buy, or I would have picked it up. But at least you know they are out there. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:34:41 EST Subject: Re: Sunbury<->Wilkes-Barre? Content-Length: 784 Regarding the ex PRR Wilkes Barre- Sunbury line it is still in existance and owned and operated by the D & H . This line was conveyed to the D & H in 1976 as a result of Conrail. This line along with trackage rights to Potomac Yard were supposed to add competition to CR's lock on this traffic. The ex DL&W Bloomburg line is still in existance from Northumberland to Berwick. North of Berwick it was abandoned in the late 70's. It is now the North Shore Railroad one of Dick Robey's short lines. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 24 Feb 98 15:10:17 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Sunbury<->Wilkes-Barre? Content-Length: 3576 --====54545456495555505451===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Thanks for the correction, Ken, though I think "the D&H" is now called the St. Lawrence and Hudson, or 'CP' for short... ;<) But hey, I'm probably wrong about that, too. Now, I've got to find the source that gave me the idea that it was the old DL&W/E-L Bloomsburg branch that survived all the way to Sunbury... How embarrassing! I HATE it when I do that. "Often wrong but never in doubt" -- Doug Drew KEMACPRR wrote: >Regarding the ex PRR Wilkes Barre- Sunbury line it is still in existance and >owned and operated by the D & H . This line was conveyed to the D & H in 1976 >as a result of Conrail. This line along with trackage rights to Potomac Yard >were supposed to add competition to CR's lock on this traffic. The ex DL&W >Bloomburg line is still in existance from Northumberland to Berwick. North of >Berwick it was abandoned in the late 70's. It is now the North Shore Railroad >one of Dick Robey's short lines. > Ken McCorry > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54545456495555505451===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the correction, Ken, though I think "the D&H" is now called the St. Lawrence and Hudson, or 'CP' for short... ;<)

But hey, I'm probably wrong about that, too.

Now, I've got to find the source that gave me the idea that it was the old DL&W/E-L Bloomsburg branch that survived all the way to Sunbury...

How embarrassing! I HATE it when I do that.

"Often wrong but never in doubt" -- Doug Drew


KEMACPRR wrote:
>Regarding the ex PRR Wilkes Barre- Sunbury line it is still in existance and
>owned and operated by the D & H . This line was conveyed to the D & H in 1976
>as a result of Conrail. This line along with trackage rights to Potomac Yard
>were supposed to add competition to CR's lock on this traffic. The ex DL&W
>Bloomburg line is still in existance from Northumberland to Berwick. North of
>Berwick it was abandoned in the late 70's. It is now the North Shore Railroad
>one of Dick Robey's short lines.
> Ken McCorry
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54545456495555505451===1-- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Passenger cars by Athearn From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:52:37 EST Content-Length: 2121 Look in Trains news photo section during that period. I'm afraid I can't cite the issue off hand. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On 24 Feb 98 16:00:53 -0500 Doug Drew writes: >Interesting! Any idea how long the lease arrangement lasted? >Have you seen any photographs of these cars in a PRR (or New Haven) >train? >I'm always looking for ways to tweak the "pointers and laughers" by >running something so obviously 'wrong' in a consist, and when the >hooting >starts, whip out the photo and gently say "Well, if it was good enough >for the >prototype..." >--Doug Drew > >ptrmgtsvc wrote: >>In the very last days of the PRR, the New Haven leased several of the >>stramlined RPOs from the Santa Fe. I can recall seeing some of these >on >>Mail/Express trains through Princeton Junction in early 1968. >> >>MEA >>______________________________ >>PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com >>Management Services Telephone >>609-683-0356 >> >>_____________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:39:46 -0500 Subject: Details From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Content-Length: 610 I'm looking for a reasonably accurate HO blow-down muffler casting for a post-war M1b, and for other larger locomotives - K4, L1 and bigger. Pat Egan _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:50:23 -0500 From: bill Subject: A good PRR True Type Font Content-Length: 1242 Anyone have or know the location of a good PRR Style TT Font for the PC? Friend of mine is looking to do a Pennsy webpage and we are having no luck finding anything that looks decent Thanks in advance! William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access bbs.bluemoon.net - Bulletin Board System http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD _______________________ The Water Level Route \ Home of the Lightning Stripes \ -------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- \ ----------------------- Home Page - http:\\www.bluemoon.net\~alcoman \ \ ------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------- \ \ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- \ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:42:46 EST Subject: Re: Passenger cars by Athearn Content-Length: 1067 In a message dated 98-02-23 09:57:30 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << Curiosly, the very short streamlined RPO may have a prototype on the SF. I've seen fotos of very short streamlined RPOs on the SF, but never was interested enough to find out if the Athearn length was correct. >> Andy and all, Andy is right the 60' RPO is a Santa Fe prototype and i understand that there were quite a few on the Santa Fe. Growing up in Southern California I remember them in service on the San Diegian's (LA to San Diego) runs. Interestingly enough some, and I am not a NH expert, were sold to the NH which were promptly put in service. So there are two prototypes for on car. I agree there is not much that can be done with the rest of the car unless you scratchbash. Watching from LINES way out WEST Greg Martin Salem, Or ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:48:18 EST Subject: Details Content-Length: 906 In a message dated 98-02-25 07:51:08 EST, Pat Egan writes: << I'm looking for a reasonably accurate HO blow-down muffler casting for a post-war M1b, and for other larger locomotives - K4, L1 and bigger. >> Excuse my ignorance, but where is this located on Pennsy locos, so I could study photos ? I assume you have already looked at Precision Scale offering of "blow down mufflers". I note that Cal-Scale has two "exhaust" mufflers and Cary has four "exhaust" mufflers and one "Blow Off" muffler. New, but interesting area for me, especially since I am finishing up a Bowser M1 (stalled at decoder and Dallee sound installation) and a Sunset M1a (painting). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:17:18 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: trainphone antenna information Content-Length: 1499 At 11:36 AM 2/21/98 -0500, s.a. mccall wrote: > >Greetings, > > Was there any specific dimension for spacing the antennae supports? What >size pipe or conduit was used to house the wire? Help!!! >Sincerely, > >S.A. McCall HOSAM >Franklin, Va. > S.A.: From Union Switch & Signal's "Inductive Train Communication" manual (published 6/46) two sizes were specified for the transmit/receive loop tubing...1-3/4 inch O.D., and 1-1/8 inch O.D. The 1-3/4 inch tubing was recommended for applications where it could serve as a handrail as well as for communications. US&S identified cabin cars and steam locomotive tenders as likely candidates for the bigger diameter. In their words, "where first cost is a concern" the 1-1/8 inch tubing was recommended. How (and if) the Pennsy chose one or the other or both is unknown to me. Sketches in the book are reduced from scale drawings of PRR equipment and are not dimensioned as to spacing...scaling the dwgs to approximate distance, the support stanchions appear to be about 4 feet apart on cabin cars, 5 feet apart on Baldwin passenger sharks, and 5-1/2 feet apart on Alco PA's, but I wouldn't want to bank on the accuracy of these numbers. bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:33:34 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: A good PRR True Type Font Content-Length: 1796 bill wrote: > > Anyone have or know the location of a good PRR Style TT Font for the PC? > > Friend of mine is looking to do a Pennsy webpage and we are having no luck > finding anything that looks decent > In a pinch, you can use Times New Roman boldface, double-space between the letters and _stretch_ it in a draw or paint program to about 150% height (I use Photoshop) then paste the graphic on the web page. This is a pretty good simulation of the Roman font used with the single stripe scheme during the 50's and 60's. Not a great solution, but it looks good until you can find something better. Also check out Ben Coifman's shareware fonts at http://www.mcs.net/~dsdawdy/Fonts/products.html -Chris > Thanks in advance! > William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator > alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System > X2 & K56flex Access bbs.bluemoon.net - Bulletin Board System > http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD > > _______________________ > The Water Level Route \ > Home of the Lightning Stripes \ You are _brave_ indeed! -- _________ __\ _ /__ --------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- ---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- ----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ -----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ ------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:44:36 EST Subject: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 852 >From time to time I see remarks about the PRR living again, but nobody ever does anything about it. California has Caltrans to run their service with Amtrak. The locomotives and cars owned by the state of California are lettered “Caltrans”. In Pennsylvania the Keystone service is paid for by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, currently with Amtrak equipment, but new equipment is on order to be used by Amtrak on the Pennsylvania financed Keystone Service. Why not bring pressure on Pennsylvania to rename the rail division of Penn DOT the Pennsylvania Rail Road and paint the new equipment with the name and Red Keystone. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:06:54 -0500 From: bill Subject: Re: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 2373 Probably becuase APU ???? or what ever the remaining corporate remnant of the PC that is left still owns the rights to that name and the Logo. Not sure on this but I do know for a fact that CR is extremely touchy when it comes to the use of their logo with out permission. I had heard somewhere that the rights to the PRR stuff (and probably NYC too) were still owned by APU (again I may be wrong on the abbreviation) At 21:44 25-02-98 EST, you wrote: >>From time to time I see remarks about the PRR living again, but nobody ever >does >anything about it. California has Caltrans to run their service with Amtrak. >The > locomotives and cars owned by the state of California are lettered >“Caltrans”. > In Pennsylvania the Keystone service is paid for by the Commonwealth of > Pennsylvania, currently with Amtrak equipment, but new equipment is on order > to be used by Amtrak on the Pennsylvania financed Keystone Service. Why not > bring pressure on Pennsylvania to rename the rail division of Penn DOT the > Pennsylvania Rail Road and paint the new equipment with the name and Red >Keystone. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access bbs.bluemoon.net - Bulletin Board System http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD _______________________ The Water Level Route \ Home of the Lightning Stripes \ -------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- \ ----------------------- Home Page - http:\\www.bluemoon.net\~alcoman \ \ ------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------- \ \ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- \ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:05:42 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 2136 TVPedro@aol.com wrote: > > >From time to time I see remarks about the PRR living again, but nobody ever > does > anything about it. California has Caltrans to run their service with Amtrak. > The > locomotives and cars owned by the state of California are lettered > “Caltrans”. > In Pennsylvania the Keystone service is paid for by the Commonwealth of > Pennsylvania, currently with Amtrak equipment, but new equipment is on order > to be used by Amtrak on the Pennsylvania financed Keystone Service. Why not > bring pressure on Pennsylvania to rename the rail division of Penn DOT the > Pennsylvania Rail Road and paint the new equipment with the name and Red > Keystone. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Greetings, This sounds like a good idea, but I recall reading in one of the prototype mags (Trains or Railfan & Railroad -- don't remember which) a few months back, just after the NS-CSX got approval to split up and take over Conrail, that NS planned to call their part of Conrail "Pennsylvania Lines", and CSX was going to name their part "New York Central Lines". Supposedly, this is because each was getting for the most part what used to be those former railroads' trackage. Whether or not that will hold true, whether or not we see the two monograms return to the rails (with or without any changes from their former appearance/design), or if this is only something for the two accessors to use in keeping their individual "books" straight is anybody's guess. Let's not start a long exhaustive thread of speculation and wishful thinking here, even if that's what most of us would like to see, but does anyone know any more on this subject that has any basis in fact? Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 02:06:47 EST Subject: Fonts! Content-Length: 426 While on the subject of fonts, would somebody please advise me as to where I could find "Futura" TrueType, and the block/serif font (also TrueType) used on the keystone station signs? Many thanks in advance, Bob. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:26:14 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 1507 
---ironhorse@sprintmail.com wrote:
>
> TVPedro@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > >From time to time I see remarks about the PRR living again, but nobody ever
> > does
> > anything (big snip here) Why not
> >  bring pressure on Pennsylvania to rename the rail division of Penn DOT the
> >  Pennsylvania Rail Road and paint the new equipment with the name and Red
> > Keystone.
> 
> This sounds like a good idea, but I recall reading in one of the
> prototype mags (small snip here) that NS planned to call their part of Conrail
> "Pennsylvania Lines", and CSX was going to name their part "New York
> Central Lines".(medium snip here)
> does anyone know any more on this subject that has any basis in fact?
> 
> Charlie Fox
>
see www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/summary.html That is a summary of the NS/CSX application to the Surface Transportation Board, and says that new corporations will be formed to hold assets now held by Conrail. Yes, two of those corporations are Pennsylvania Lines LLC and New York Central Lines LLC.

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at Yahoo! Mail.
------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 05:45:35 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Fwd: (revised and improved) Re: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 2140 Apologies. The URL in the first post was defective. After some tests, I think I have it right now.

www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/summary.html

---robert netzlof wrote: 

---ironhorse@sprintmail.com wrote:
>
> TVPedro@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > >From time to time I see remarks about the PRR living again, but nobody ever
> > does
> > anything (big snip here) Why not
> >  bring pressure on Pennsylvania to rename the rail division of Penn DOT the
> >  Pennsylvania Rail Road and paint the new equipment with the name and Red
> > Keystone.
> 
> This sounds like a good idea, but I recall reading in one of the
> prototype mags (small snip here) that NS planned to call their part of Conrail
> "Pennsylvania Lines", and CSX was going to name their part "New York
> Central Lines".(medium snip here)
> does anyone know any more on this subject that has any basis in fact?
> 
> Charlie Fox
>
see www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/summary.html That is a summary of the NS/CSX application to the Surface Transportation Board, and says that new corporations will be formed to hold assets now held by Conrail. Yes, two of those corporations are Pennsylvania Lines LLC and New York Central Lines LLC.

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at Yahoo! Mail.
------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at Yahoo! Mail.
------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 26 Feb 98 09:00:11 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 2178 Hard to believe CSX or NS would overshadow their own corporate identities (ugly as NS's is) with those of railroads that had ultimately failed. I think the names of the new corporate entities are more of a convenience to define which lines are which. By the way, what does "LLC" stand for? And what is APU, beside the Quickee-Mart owner on "The Simpsons"? It is my understanding that an individual had somehow had acquired 'rights' to the PRR keystone (even if only in his own mind), and was attempting to charge model train manufacturers, publishers, railroadiana manufacturers, etc. for the priviledge of using the PRR keystone on any goods sold. I believe I had read about this in Railpace magazine. Can anyone else verify this, and if so, what the ultimate outcome of the situation was? -- Doug Drew robert netzlof wrote: >---ironhorse@sprintmail.com wrote: > > TVPedro@aol.com wrote: > > > > >From >time to time I see remarks about the PRR living again, but nobody ever > > does >> > anything (big snip here) Why not > > bring pressure on Pennsylvania to rename >the rail division of Penn DOT the > > Pennsylvania Rail Road and paint the new >equipment with the name and Red > > Keystone. > > This sounds like a good idea, >but I recall reading in one of the > prototype mags (small snip here) that NS >planned to call their part of Conrail > "Pennsylvania Lines", and CSX was going to >name their part "New York > Central Lines".(medium snip here) > does anyone know any >more on this subject that has any basis in fact? > > Charlie Fox > >see >www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/summary.html(www.nscorp.com/nscorp/htm l/conra >il/summary.html) That is a summary of the NS/CSX application to the Surface >Transportation Board, and says that new corporations will be formed to hold >assets now held by Conrail. Yes, two of those corporations are Pennsylvania Lines LLC >and New York Central Lines LLC. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:24:53 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 659 On 26 Feb 1998, Doug Drew wrote: > Hard to believe CSX or NS would overshadow their own corporate identities > (ugly as NS's is) with those of railroads that had ultimately failed. I > think the names of the new corporate entities are more of a convenience to > define which lines are which. By the way, what does "LLC" stand for? And > what is APU, beside the Quickee-Mart owner on "The Simpsons"? American Premier Underwriters -D ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:31:29 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: corrected url for NS-CSX Content-Length: 401 Greetings, Many browsers do not automatically add the pre-fix, try this one. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:43:30 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: New paint schemes Content-Length: 978 Greetings, As I see it CSX will have the new NYC, NS will have the new PRR. Well look for black engines, white trim per current NS and if we are lucky a small PRR on the cab. I doubt if we will see any keystones, shame. If NS had gotten the new NYC a black scheme per current NS practice with gray trim instead of white. That wouldn't be too bad. Maybe CSX will paint the NYC engines blue with a gray lightning stripe. An all black new PRR engine with keystones and a small NS on the cab would be better! In any event I'll bet CSX will have the better looking scheme on their NYC than NS will have on their PRR. Comments?? Yes that is a silly question, I'm sure there will be comments!!!! Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:08:03 -0500 From: Kent Loudon Subject: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 644 On 25 feb TVPedro@aol.com wrote: >> Why not bring pressure on Pennsylvania to rename the rail division of Penn DOT the Pennsylvania Rail Road and paint the new equipment with the name and Red Keystone. << A wonderful idea ! There is certainly precedent for this sort of thing. I am referring to the "New Haven" painted FL9's operated by Connecticut DOT. - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 09:40 26-Feb-98 via OzWin 2.14 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:25:44 EST Subject: Re NEW PRR Content-Length: 913 My idea to have the state set up state DOT rail road wing as the Pennsylvania Pail Road and paint the new equipment Pennsylvania, has generated too many reply’s regarding the ownership of the name and logo. Passenger equipment on the old PRR was labeled Pennsylvania, which is the name of the Commonwealth, there is no ownership involved in the state using it’s own name. The Keystone is on every thing the commonwealth owns from the turnpike to the lottery. There is no problem in using the Red Keystone at least for the equipment numbers. The name and keystone were owned by the government long before the Columbia RR or PRR. Lets sell the state and let them work out the legal details. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: NEW PRR -- LISTMASTER COMMENT Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 11:43:56 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1056 While I can appreciate this thread, it could quickly blow into the problem that we had a few weeks ago...with the "PPR of the Future" thread that caused many valuable subscribers to nearly leave. That thread was ended and will resurface on a new list, called "PRR2000" to be announced in the coming weeks. Please put off such speculatory discussions about the PRR until that time and then do so on the new list. This request is not intended to deter your interest; rather, it is to protect the interests of the larger subscriber base which prefers to focus solely on the historical "real" Pennsy and in modeling of the same. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:50:41 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: H54 in Galveston Content-Length: 929 Last night in the Galveston Wharves yard I spotted a Penn Central H54 hopper with a built date of 12-71 on it. A very faded Conrail symbol had at one time been painted over the Penn Central name. The car is now owned by NRLX. The PC number was painted over for the new car number - #047214 - so I could not determine the orginal car number. The car had a "LIME" stencil on the side, but was in a line of grain cars, so I assume the new owner converted it to grain haulage. This is the first time I've seen anything relating to the PRR or its successor in Galveston. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:15:51 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Legal standing of PRR emblem Content-Length: 1087 Greetings to Doug and the list: The gentleman from Illinois who attempted to assert that he'd secured the rights to, and ownership of, the Pennsylvania Railroad keystone emblem does not, in fact, possess those rights. The federal Patent and Trademark Office rejected his claim on many, many points of law. (I learned this by talking to the administrative law judge who handled the case.) However, the man was right about one thing: American Premier Underwriters, corporate succesor to Penn Central Co., did allow its claim to the emblem to lapse. APU asserts that it never yielded ownership to anyone -- but in fact, the trademark was never renewed when its original term expired. The result is that the emblem now is sort of in the public domain because no one can prove clear, uncontested owernship any more. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:32:54 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Keystones, etc., on new equipment Content-Length: 1925 Greetings to the list! It would be nice to revive the PRR emblem and colors for new equipment for the Harrisburg-Philadelphia line. When I worked for the Pennsylvania High Speed Intercity Rail Passenger Commission a decade ago, we talked about exactly the same concept. Of course, nothing ever came of that high speed rail plan. But just a reality check here, guys. If we truly want to see the kind of leadership the PRR exhibited carried out in present-day passenger railroading over this classic PRR route, we need to ask some tough questions about the kind of equipment that all of us are talking about painting before a it's even off the drawing board. PennDOT wants to acquire diesel MUs. Yawn, yawn, yawn. Basically, updated RDCs for Harrisburg-Philly service -- which of course, is still electrified. DMUs offer slow acceleration when they're traveling, and fumes when they're standing still (so they can't run into PRR's 1930 Suburban Station in downtown Philly, where the market really is). The only thing LESS appropriate for the line is what Amtrak is using now -- big GE Genesis road units with three-car Amfleet consists. It's like putting a couple of P54s (same as MP54 trailers) behind a T1. If someone doesn't start asking the hard questions about why PennDOT/Amtrak is disregarding all of the assets of the the fixed plant (the built-to-last-forever PRR electrification) and the high acceleration rates that either electric MUS (a la PRR's 1965 Silverliner service to Harrisburg) or electric-locomotive-hauled trainsets, there won't be a market left, and there will be no trains to paint tuscan red or affix keystones to. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 91 ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 26 Feb 98 16:05:33 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RANT (was: Keystones, etc., on new equipment) Content-Length: 4251 At the risk of sounding more stupid than usual, and keeping this thread off-topic (not that traffic on this list has been particularly heavy, lately), a few rhetorical questions: --Why is Amtrak using diesels on an electrified route? Not enough Swedish meatballs to go around? --I thought because Amtrak HAD TO HAVE its passenger-train-only electric railroad, it drove all the freight off the electrified lines and so lead to the scrapping of the E44's and ended any further development of electric freight traction in this country? What happened to that strategy? --If exhaust from idling diesel MU's would be an issue at 30th street, why aren't the Genesis units also a problem? They are running into 30th street, aren't they? Or are these NYP-HBG trains that change power at North Philly or somewhere? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but now it appears that the boneheads in Washington are planning on pulling down as many of the remaining wires outside the corridor itself as they can, in the guise of reducing maintenance expense and making the bottom line appear not as dismal. Really frightening that the squandering of such an asset is being contemplated. I'll never get over my incredulity upon seeing crews taking down the wires into Enola... Pennsy seemed capable of safely running a far higher passenger density in the face of its substantial freight traffic running on the same routes -- wouldn't it have made sense to keep Amtrak's and Conrail's trains on the same tracks? Use the SuperRailroad for what it was designed for? At the time, the government was paying the track maintenance tab for both entities. Maybe someone with a little imagination and deep pockets like Virgin Atlantic's Richard Branson could pull off privatising Amtrak, if Congress would have the guts to keep their mitts off it. Considering the damage done already, perhaps this should be made to happen while there is still a traffic base to save. Amtrak is swirling the drain. Please excuse the rant. -- Doug Drew Dan Cupper wrote: >Greetings to the list! > >It would be nice to revive the PRR emblem and colors for new equipment >for the Harrisburg-Philadelphia line. When I worked for the >Pennsylvania High Speed Intercity Rail Passenger Commission a decade >ago, we talked about exactly the same concept. Of course, nothing ever >came of that high speed rail plan. > >But just a reality check here, guys. If we truly want to see the kind >of leadership the PRR exhibited carried out in present-day passenger >railroading over this classic PRR route, we need to ask some tough >questions about the kind of equipment that all of us are talking about >painting before a it's even off the drawing board. > >PennDOT wants to acquire diesel MUs. Yawn, yawn, yawn. Basically, >updated RDCs for Harrisburg-Philly service -- which of course, is still >electrified. DMUs offer slow acceleration when they're traveling, and >fumes when they're standing still (so they can't run into PRR's 1930 >Suburban Station in downtown Philly, where the market really is). The >only thing LESS appropriate for the line is what Amtrak is using now -- >big GE Genesis road units with three-car Amfleet consists. It's like >putting a couple of P54s (same as MP54 trailers) behind a T1. > >If someone doesn't start asking the hard questions about why >PennDOT/Amtrak is disregarding all of the assets of the the fixed plant >(the built-to-last-forever PRR electrification) and the high >acceleration rates that either electric MUS (a la PRR's 1965 Silverliner >service to Harrisburg) or electric-locomotive-hauled trainsets, there >won't be a market left, and there will be no trains to paint tuscan red >or affix keystones to. > >Dan Cupper >cupper@ibm.net >Psalm 91 > >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: RANT (was: Keystones, etc., on new equipment) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:16:24 -0800 Content-Length: 1221 > ---------- > From: Doug Drew[SMTP:ddrew@channing-bete.com] > Reply To: Doug Drew > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 1998 1:05 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: RANT (was: Keystones, etc., on new equipment) > > > --If exhaust from idling diesel MU's would be an issue at 30th street, > why aren't the Genesis units also a problem? They are running into 30th > street, aren't they? Or are these NYP-HBG trains that change power at > North > Philly or somewhere? > At 30th st, the NY portion of the train stops with the last car about a car length from the NY end of the platform. Compared to the location of the stairs, it's quite a hike. The electric cuts off and moves forward just past the stairs. The diesel then added to end of train, almost, but not quite out in the open. The day I rode, we used track 8. Didn't use the 8/9 crossover (#63) though to bring the diesel up behind. Don't know why - seems like a perfect way to shave a few minutes off the schedule. John ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:54:25 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: PRR-N&W cars (a bit long) Content-Length: 5549 Hi you all.... Recently at work one of the senior supervisors showed me a book on the N&W at Williamson,W.V. He said i could take it home and read it and i've found some info that i thought should be shared here..... The book is called "The Norfolk & Western Railway:Williamson Terminal 1953 By Vern French Rocky Mountain Publishing Inc. 1992 What follows is mostly info on N&W passenger cars... As most PRR nuts know the N&W was partly owned by the PRR for a long time. and that the PRR had a influence on the N&W (Signals being an example). 1. On page 71 of the book is a picture of N&W # 1206 (1200-1207) a RPO-baggage car. This was N&W class LF(later class BMf) built by PSC 3-1913 with N&W class TEE trucks (6 wheel) and weighing 127,862 Lbs. This class is almost if not identical to the PRR class BM-70a cars... the weight is in the same range and construction is the same.the window arrangement is the same.(a Rivarossi or IHC car is like this one.) 2. On page 67 is a photo of car # 86(later #2086) N&W class PA coach.off the roster in 1934. this is a wood car.....very similar to PRR's wood cars (such as the coaches at Strasburg)PRR class PB? 3. On page 69 is a picture of N&W class PG # 1638 a coach also. N&W class TEE(6 wheel) trucks(later some with N&W class T-86 trucks) car weight is 137,400 Lbs. Here is a N&W car roster of this class.... 1600-1634 built Harlan and Hollingsworth 1913 1635-1644 " " " " " 1916 1645-1651 " " " " " 1917 1652-1673 " Beth Steel Co. 1918 Some of these cars were later modified some not. Some of the Un modified cars were sold to the PRR in 1963 (info as per PRR color guide to freight and passenger equipment. by sweetland and yanosey) the cars bought by PRR were in the 1300 on the Pennsy. the unmodified N&W cars were.....1600-1617,1623-1625,1631-1641,1648-55 1658-1673. The PRR cars had to come from one of these groups. The PRR book with the photo says they were used in Buffalo-Harrisburg service. There is a picture of the inside of these cars in the N&W book on page 76. 4. PRR P-54(MP-54) types sold to N&W in 1934. On pages 72 & 73 (pictures on page 73) 8-N&W class PK coaches #s 475-482 (PRR class P-54)(PRR #s unknown) 20-N&W class BPg combines #350-369 (PRR class PB-54) (PRR #'s 4623,47,23,4626,etc(this is the way the book shows it) 5-N&W class BM-baggage cars #'s 330-334(these are RPO-baggage cars) (PRR class BM-62) #'s unknown... ALL above off roster 9-1949. Inside pictures of the N&W class BPg combine taken 2-1934 on page 76 " " " " " " PK coach " 2-2-1934 on page 77 5. A reference to Diners bought from the PRR at the bottom of page 67. N&W DE class diners were very close to PRR D classes. 6. On page 70 there is a picture of N&W #127(125-134) N&W class BEk built by Beth Steel Co. 1929 N&W class T-52(4 wheel) trucks(book mentions PRR design) weight as being 97,700 Lbs. these cars are almost identical to PRR -B-60 class cars,perhaps built at the same time. 7. On page 87 is a picture and info on N&W class S-2 sleepers. built by Pullman Standard 12-1948. Text says they were very similar to PRR "Rapids" series cars. The photo shows the car "McDowell County" striped just like a PRR car(stripe above and two below windows(not like a N&W car at all) like a PRR car) Car names were McDowell County, Sussex County, and Buchanan County. Could they have been in joint service with the PRR at one point? 8.On page 91 is a picture of a N&W class S-1 10&6 sleeper. info on these cars is on page 98. These cars were built by Budd Oct,Nov,Dec 1949 and Jan 1950. Cars with N&W class T-94 trucks(4 wheel) were Wythe County, Augusta County, Duke University, Ohio State University and University of Cincinnati. Cars with N&W class T-89 trucks(4-wheel) were Hampden-Sydney College, Virginia Military Institute, Washington & Lee U. Randolph-Macon College, Hollins College, Roanoke College, Emory &Henry Coll. Virginia Polytechnic Institue, Mercer County, Mingo County, Pulaski County, Scioto County,Franklin County, Campbell County and Pike County. These cars were sold to the PRR in 1964? and converted to coaches. 9. And last but not least...N&W class HC-4 covered hoppers... info and pictures are on pages 103 and 105...the car shown was built 5-1646 # 70700 These cars may have been based on a PRR design... compare below.... N&W Class HC-4 weight 48,000Lbs 140,000 Cap. #s 70700-70799 inside lenth 28'0" 8 hatches 2 hopper bays PRR Class H-30a weight 50,000 Lbs 140,000 Cap. #s 255000 ? inside lenth 31'0" 10 hatches 3 hopper bays I hope this listing helps some and it probably has opened up some questions with others... I am going to make copies of the above pages in case anyone needs pictures or info before i have to return the book. Til Later and Have Fun Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:32:10 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 3152 Doug Drew wrote: > > Hard to believe CSX or NS would overshadow their own corporate identities > (ugly as NS's is) with those of railroads that had ultimately failed. I > think the names of the new corporate entities are more of a convenience to > define which lines are which. By the way, what does "LLC" stand for? And > what is APU, beside the Quickee-Mart owner on "The Simpsons"? > > It is my understanding that an individual had somehow had acquired > 'rights' to the PRR keystone (even if only in his own mind), and was attempting > to charge model train manufacturers, publishers, railroadiana > manufacturers, etc. for the priviledge of using the PRR keystone on any goods sold. I > believe I had read about this in Railpace magazine. Can anyone else verify > this, and if so, what the ultimate outcome of the situation was? > > -- Doug Drew > > robert netzlof wrote: > >---ironhorse@sprintmail.com wrote: > > TVPedro@aol.com wrote: > > > > > >From > >time to time I see remarks about the PRR living again, but nobody ever > > > does > >> > anything (big snip here) Why not > > bring pressure on Pennsylvania > to rename > >the rail division of Penn DOT the > > Pennsylvania Rail Road and paint > the new > >equipment with the name and Red > > Keystone. > > This sounds like a > good idea, > >but I recall reading in one of the > prototype mags (small snip here) > that NS > >planned to call their part of Conrail > "Pennsylvania Lines", and CSX > was going to > >name their part "New York > Central Lines".(medium snip here) > does > anyone know any > >more on this subject that has any basis in fact? > > Charlie Fox > > >see > >www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/summary.html(www.nscorp.com/nscorp/htm > l/conra > >il/summary.html) That is a summary of the NS/CSX application to the > Surface > >Transportation Board, and says that new corporations will be formed to > hold > >assets now held by Conrail. Yes, two of those corporations are > Pennsylvania Lines LLC > >and New York Central Lines LLC. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Drew, "LLC" stands for Limited Liability Company (or Corporation--not sure which). Any legal beagles out ther who can tell us in layman's terms the bounds of an LLC? As for the monogram trademark ownership situation, a couple of years ago when this came up, it went to court. The bottom line of the decision was that the PRR keystone monogram is now public domain and can not be trademarked again. If I remember correctly, the court's ruling was "broadened" to include the (major ?) fallen flags of that time. I would guess then that NYC and a few others would be in that group, but again, I make no claims to accuracy about them. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:06:17 -0500 From: bill Subject: Conrail Content-Length: 2095 Not really wanting to state the obvious but one thing we all need to keep in mind is that in just a few short months CR will be added to the growing list of "Fallen Flags" yes this will be by merger and not a gut-wrenching experience that was had in 1968 or even in 1976. But in 2 years will there be any Big Blues around left to photograph or video or anything, I was 12 in 1976 and lived in an area served by the B&O (Springville NY). Older fans scoff at the fact that my friends and I are fans of Conrail. But what they fail to realize is that for us, THE railroad is CR. I love the NYC and the Pennsy and the B&O and the Erie. We didnt get the chance to see (or if we did see em we were extremly young) NYC E's and F's pulling passenger trains or RS3's pulling transfer freights, or SD9's pulling trains around Horseshoe Curve in Brunswick Green. I am not lamenting the fact that I was born in 1964, all I am doing is reminding ALL fans that in a couple of years CR will be in the same place as PRR/NYC/PC/EL and ALL the rest. William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access bbs.bluemoon.net - Bulletin Board System http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD _______________________ The Water Level Route \ Home of the Lightning Stripes \ -------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- \ ----------------------- Home Page - http:\\www.bluemoon.net\~alcoman \ \ ------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------- \ \ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- \ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigBeerBob Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:07:22 EST Subject: Keystones (!!!) on MARC (?!) coaches Content-Length: 722 December '97, saw a MARC train in Penn Station Baltimore, one MARC coach had a PRR Keystone and "Tyrone Inn" on the letterboard next to the door. In smaller type it said (I think) "Heritage Fleet". (Not sure of the ancestry of this coach.) C'mon Amtrak, show proper respect to the PRR, do something similar for the Phila-Harrisburg Keystone trains...wait, expand that to the Corridor too...even SEPTA has a Budd MU (269) rolling around with "PENNSYLVANIA" above the windows (no keystones, though)...Bob ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:56:27 EST Subject: Barree in the Middle Division Content-Length: 777 Does anyone know of any sources of photographs, magazine articles, and other information for Barree. Particularly need information on the passenger station and other trackside structures. Also E. R Baldridge Co., photos, what did they manufacture? They are listed in the 1923 CT 1000E and the 1945 CT 1000. Their siding is/was located 1.2 miles west of the passenger station which would place it near or just beyond Tunnel Interlocking. The topo maps shows a gravel pit near this location, would this be a Baldridge facility? Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:00:52 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Content-Length: 775 A few weeks ago, Rob Schoenberg said that an Atlas rep. said that the Pennsy market is drying up as its fan base ages. I'm interested in seeing what the average & range of ages of list subscribers is. If those willing would e-mail me (off list) their ages, I'll post the results, and also send them to the Atlas rep who lurks at rec.models.railroad. BTW: Thanks to again to Chris Brandt for his PRR-Talk archive search. I didn't have to search through hundreds of posts trying to find the original post. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:07:41 EST Subject: Re: Conrail Content-Length: 892 In a message dated 98-02-26 23:14:50 EST, William J. Ensner writes: << I am not lamenting the fact that I was born in 1964, all I am doing is reminding ALL fans that in a couple of years CR will be in the same place as PRR/NYC/PC/EL and ALL the rest. >> That's why, although I have shelved my Conrail MRR equipment to focus on Pennsy 1946-1952, I am glad I have 20+ hours of videotape of Conrail at Colehour, Porter, Elkhart and the Curve, plus track diagrams, freight schedules, et. al. Now how can I afford decoders for my SD80-MAC's (Rail Power converts, not Overland) when I haven't scratched the surface of getting my Pennsy locos converted? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:57:47 EST Subject: Towers Content-Length: 345 I seem to remember a reference to an HO PRR tower laser kit. If so, can someone help me with brand and description? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:06:35 EST Subject: Errata for Pennsy Power books Content-Length: 947 Somewhere in the dim recesses of my mind I recall seeing a long detailed errata list for these books. I am looking specifically for Vol. II by Staufer and Pennypacker. Thought it was in Keystone, but can't find it there or Rails Northeast or Pennsy Journal. Can anyone help? If not, I have one specific question which has always bothered me. Page 275 of Vol. II shows an FM Erie-built A-B pulling "very long mail and express #14 through Gould's, Ohio". First 5 cars of this train are two container cars and three Merchandise Service cars, followed by other boxcars. Since these first five cars were not equipped with trainlines for passenger service, is this a mistake? Is this more likely an LCL train? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:22:14 EST Subject: Intermountain Kits Content-Length: 899 Hi Gang, I'm in the process of building some of Intermountain's reefers and I've gotten to the point where it's time to affix the grab irons. Can someone suggest the best way to accomplish this task? I have been using 'Tenax-7R', the liquid cement up to this point but, I'm not certain if this the best way to attach the ladders and grabs. I have some of the CA stuff as well but, past experience says....go easy, when using that method as things get attached very rapidly and my hands are not as steady as they once were. Then again, there are the metal (after-market) jobs. I also have some of those. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Intermountain Kits Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:55:41 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1723 On 27 Feb, Eichhorn wrote: > I'm in the process of building some > of Intermountain's reefers and I've > gotten to the point where it's time to > affix the grab irons. Can someone > suggest the best way to accomplish > this task? [ ... ] I've been building the N-scale version, but the techniques are the same. Just drill the locator holes through into the body, using a much smaller bit than the original holes, tweeze a grab into position and hold it there, then dry-brush the tiniest bit of Testor's cement onto the inside end of the drilled hole. The cement will wick into the hole, *usually* without any cement reaching the outside surface. I have seen some IM-built cars with cement showing... You can drill out *all* holes this way, and so apply the cement to the back of the part, even with the roofwalk corner grabs; just do it before you glue the roofwalk onto the car. Some people use low-tack tape on a fingertip to hold the grab in position. I have not tried this, but it might work better than tweezers. You have to hold the grab to the shell with a dental probe and remove the finger after appying the cement. Good luck! Let us know how it goes! I've very grateful that IM includes extra grabs. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:11:56 EST Subject: Re: Errata for Pennsy Power books Content-Length: 1177 In a message dated 98-02-27 11:26:58 EST, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << If not, I have one specific question which has always bothered me. Page 275 of Vol. II shows an FM Erie-built A-B pulling "very long mail and express #14 through Gould's, Ohio". First 5 cars of this train are two container cars and three Merchandise Service cars, followed by other boxcars. Since these first five cars were not equipped with trainlines for passenger service, is this a mistake? Is this more likely an LCL train? >> In 1950 the consist of Express 14 was: Exp. (X) various cars MS60 - 4 M70 - 1 MS60 - 1 B60 - 1 EXP B60 - 1 P70 - 1 ADDED AT PITTSBURGH P70 - 1 ADDED AT HARRISBURG all Exp (X) various cars were cut off before Pittsburgh. Thus there was no need to trainlines to heat etc. the passenger cars until Pittsburgh so the cars lacking trainlines could be mixed in with other express cars. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:00:28 EST Subject: Re: Errata for Pennsy Power books Content-Length: 724 In a message dated 98-02-27 16:11:56 EST, Rich Orr writes: << all Exp (X) various cars were cut off before Pittsburgh. Thus there was no need to trainlines to heat etc. the passenger cars until Pittsburgh so the cars lacking trainlines could be mixed in with other express cars>> Thanks, Rich. Was it common to see these merchandise cars on the Mail and Express trains? Was there a particular cargo that influenced the decision to run them this way rather tahn wait for LCL trains? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:29:42 EST Subject: Re: Intermountain Kits/reply..attaching grabs Content-Length: 1068 George, Select the grabs you prefer to use first. I find the plastic grabs in most "new generation" kits to be a bit on the thick side. Liquid cement works very well in plastic to plastic applications because the two parts weld together. If you should select wire grabs I would suggest Super Glue Gel. This is the thicker form of the now famous one part adhesive. Contol is the most outstanding aspect of this adhesive and it works very well on dissimilar materials. Lastly if you choose Details Assocates grabs try a very small amount of Goo or other contact cement. Contact cement is difficult to work with but will hold the Details Assocates grabs like nothing else. I use a toothpick as an applicator. This is the only cement I use to adhere photo- etched anything to a car or locomotive. Good Luck! Ed Martin ~GO REEFERS!_____ ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brandt" Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:01:33 -0500 Content-Length: 381 I am 41 years old but in our club we have two younger members i.e. 21 and 30 , also I know of others that are younger than I. Brian Brandt ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:29:47 EST Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Content-Length: 752 Jerry, Perhaps the market is waning for Atlas, but not for other producers, ask RED CABOOSE. I would have to say that perhaps it is the offerings that they put on the table that is drying up. I'm a SPF and I'm 42 soon to be 43. But my next article for Mainline will be a Pennsy offering and what we Pennsy modelers have to go through to make their (Atlas) offerings correct for Pennsy. Their market may be off but they can make it better. KEEP "um POLISHED Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST Salem, Or ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:41:29 EST Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 742 Bob, American Model Builders is working on it. It is not done yet. I have had several conversations on which tower to do. I do not believe they have come to a concrete committment yet. But we will have a Pennsy HO Scale Tower that SPEAKS OF PENNSY. I know the owner personally and we talk all the time. I have suggested he does not pattern it after any particular tower, but it must be "typically Pennsy". Care to share your comments I realize I might take some heat on this, but my shoulders are broad. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:44:55 EST Subject: Re: Errata for Pennsy Power books Content-Length: 387 Bob, No I do not think what you are seeing is a mistake simply a Mail Train of the period. It may not have carried and passengers at all, just express mail. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:45:51 EST Subject: Original Spruce Creek Tunnel Content-Length: 1082 I was going through the April 1946 issue of Railroad Magazine (the PRR Centennial Issue featuring 35 pages of photos) and ran across a full page photo of the original tunnel. It was significantly different than the remodeled version (1903). The photo must have been taken from the top of a car. There a 2 tracks and retaining walls following along the tracks for some distance from the tunnel. The retaining walls appear to be about 20 feet tall at the portal and step down toward the west. The north retaining wall is approximately 50 feet long and the south wall several 100 feet long. There is a barn on the rise just north of the track. The telegraph lines go up and over Short Mountain along a cleared path. Photo probably dates from the 1880s or 90s. If anyone wants to post it to a web page I can scan it and send it up. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: carl.haslett@lmco.com Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:14:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: trainphone antenna information Content-Length: 428 Check out the latest (April 1998) Model Railroader Paint Shop article, page 128, for some info on trainphone antennas for E8 locos. Maybe you can scale the N dimensions up to what you need for your project. Carl ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:24:44 Subject: PRR credit card guy (was legal standing of PRR emblem) Content-Length: 2021 Hi Dan & list members, The PRR credit card guy is still around, he was working the front entrance of the San Francisco (Cow Palace) GATS show. Given what I had heard about all this on the list, I gave him & his booth a wide berth. - Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale San Francisco, CA > Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:15:51 -0500 > From: Dan Cupper > Send reply to: cupper@ibm.net > To: Doug Drew > Copies to: PRR-talk > Subject: Re: Legal standing of PRR emblem > Greetings to Doug and the list: > > > The gentleman from Illinois who attempted to assert that he'd secured > the rights to, and ownership of, the Pennsylvania Railroad keystone > emblem does not, in fact, possess those rights. The federal Patent and > Trademark Office rejected his claim on many, many points of law. (I > learned this by talking to the administrative law judge who handled the > case.) > > However, the man was right about one thing: American Premier > Underwriters, corporate succesor to Penn Central Co., did allow its > claim to the emblem to lapse. APU asserts that it never yielded > ownership to anyone -- but in fact, the trademark was never renewed when > its original term expired. The result is that the emblem now is sort of > in the public domain because no one can prove clear, uncontested > owernship any more. > > Dan Cupper > cupper@ibm.net > Romans 10:9-10 > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Union Station Products Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 12:35:34 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1114 Union Station Products and I have updated our web hosting arrangement to be more in line with the arrangement that I have with Liberty Model Productions. As a result: 1) I am continuing to offer the complete product line through "Merchandise Service" with proceeds benefiting "PRR-Talk" and "Desktop Solutions". My listing, however, will list only PRR products even though all products are available. A 10% discount will continue. 2) Union Station Products now has an independent web site, hosted by my server and maintained by me. The new URL is http://usp.dsop.com. If you have any product related questions, you will now be able to reach USP directly. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:47:38 EST Subject: Re: Atlas & aging PRR fans? Content-Length: 766 Brian, that is good to hear as the demographics of the hobby are changing and it is a concern that the younger generation is not interested in the model railroad hobby at all. So I say to all of you please take a young person with you to your next train show swap meet and/or model rasilroad club open house. This change in demographics is a major concern to all the manufacturers. No cash, no capitol, no reinvestment, that will be a problem for all of us as model railroaders. Think Pennsy1 Watching from LINES way out WEST Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Fw: Atlas & Ageing PRR fans Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:28:51 -0500 Content-Length: 1180 ---------- > From: Carl Izzo > To: geshick@velocity.net > Subject: Atlas & Ageing PRR fans > Date: Saturday, February 28, 1998 5:23 PM > > Hi Jerry: > > I think your Atlas rep has a problem, or his company is run by pinheads! > I am 65 and have been in HO Scale since 1947. In the past 6 months, I've > spent about $1,500.00 on my Model railroad. Included in my purchases are an > ABBA set of PA's and an ABBA set of E7's, an S.2, a C.1, and numerous > hoppers and box cars, all lettered for PRR. None of these were > manufactured by Atlas. I will probably spend and additional $1,500.00 to > $2,000.00 in the next 6 months. I am going into DCC. > > What these pinheads don't realize, it is the ageing PRR fans who have the > money to spend on their hobbies. When I was young, the kids always needed > shoes. > > Put PRR or a Keystone on it and I would probably buy it! > > Carl P. Izzo > Ageing PRR Fan ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:30:35 EST Subject: Re: Errata for Pennsy Power books Content-Length: 749 In a message dated 98-02-27 18:08:52 EST, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Was it common to see these merchandise cars on the Mail and Express trains? Was there a particular cargo that influenced the decision to run them this way rather tahn wait for LCL trains? >> Based on the 1950 consists this was the exception rather than the rule. Since there is no back haul on the 13, this may have been a dedicated service for a particular customer or a shortage of mail storage cars or a means of returning empty MSD cars. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:46:36 EST Subject: Re: RANT (was: Keystones, etc., on new equipment) Content-Length: 3107 In a message dated 98-02-26 16:10:16 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: > Not enough Swedish meatballs to go around? That was the primary reason when the line was first dieselized. The Chase,Md. wreck had just happened, and several other AEM7's were out of service for various reasons. This left the schedule, which recently had been augmented with the "Express Metroliners", hurting for power. >--I thought because Amtrak HAD TO HAVE its passenger-train-only electric >railroad, The operative word here is "passenger-only", not "electric". >it drove all the freight off the electrified lines ....... >and ended any further development of electric >freight traction in this country? What happened to that strategy? It worked! But I maintain that their goal was not specifically to eliminate electric freight service, but just to eliminate freight service. A dumb move, but remember: at that time, Amtrak felt that their future, in terms of funding, was secure. Things are different now, which is why we hear about potential NS freight moves on the Corridor. >--If exhaust from idling diesel MU's would be an issue at 30th street, >why aren't the Genesis units also a problem? The problem would be at Suburban Station. Diesels of various types and ownerships idle for hours inside 30th Street. >Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but now it appears that the boneheads >in Washington are planning on pulling down as many of the remaining wires >outside the corridor itself as they can, in the guise of reducing >maintenance expense and making the bottom line appear not as dismal. Really >frightening that the squandering of such an asset is being contemplated. I'll >never get over my incredulity upon seeing crews taking down the wires into >Enola... > >Pennsy seemed capable of safely running a far higher passenger density in >the face of its substantial freight traffic running on the same routes -- >wouldn't it have made sense to keep Amtrak's and Conrail's trains on the >same tracks? Use the SuperRailroad for what it was designed for? At the >time, the government was paying the track maintenance tab for both entities. I fully concur with all of the above, including the term "boneheads". But this whole catenary/freight issue came to a head when Conrail was getting out from under government control, and hence was seeking to cut its costs. And the fact is, for a company using the "bottom-line-today" mentality, that you can run diesels cheaper than electrics. >Maybe someone with a little imagination and deep pockets like Virgin >Atlantic's Richard Branson I have serious doubts about him, or Kelleher, or any of the other "airline wunderkinds", who skim the cream off the market while using taxpayer- funded airports, control systems, etc. But I have completely strayed from the topic. Finis. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:01:38 -0500 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: A NEW PRR Content-Length: 2494 >Doug Drew wrote: >> >> Hard to believe CSX or NS would overshadow their own corporate identities >> (ugly as NS's is) with those of railroads that had ultimately failed. I >> think the names of the new corporate entities are more of a convenience to >> define which lines are which. By the way, what does "LLC" stand for? And >> what is APU, beside the Quickee-Mart owner on "The Simpsons"? >> >Drew, > "LLC" stands for Limited Liability Company (or Corporation--not sure >which). Any legal beagles out ther who can tell us in layman's terms >the bounds of an LLC? cy about them. >Charlie Fox > An LLC is a Limited Liability Corporation. This is a relatively new business entity established and approved by the IRS about 4 years ago. This designation allows a company to operate with the liability protection of a corporation but their income is subject to parternership rules for federal income tax. This basically makes their recordkeeping requirements much easier to handle and allows them more flexibility in payment of shareholders or "partners". Each state determines how the LLC income must be reported and how their members are treated for tax purposes. Interestingly, most states allow them to be treated as partnerships, but some insist that they be treated as corporations. PA allows LLC status to be treated as a partnership in most areas, but requires certain corporate properties to be retained. For example, an LLC in Pennsylvania must pay the yearly Capital Stock tax which is charged to corporations, but does not pay income tax on its earnings to PA. Instead, the income is reported as earned by the shareholders or partners, the same way Partnerships and S-Corporations are treated in PA. The partners then receive a Schedule K-1 reporting their share of the income (or loss) and they must report in on their PA tax return. By reporting their income this way on the Federal return they are avoiding the issue of "double taxation" which is common with Corporations when the Corporation pays tax on its income and then the shareholder pays tax again when taking a distribution or "dividend" from the Corporation. Deb Wartell, EA wife of Dave Wartell Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:37:52 Subject: Re: Towers Content-Length: 1533 Hi Greg, Since it seems you have somewhat of a raport with the folks at AMB, pls mention to them that an N scale version of the PRR tower would be greatly appreciated by the 1/160 crowd - yes, even N scalers can be SPF's! Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale San Francisco, CA > From: TGREGMRTN > Date sent: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:41:29 EST > To: Bobspf@aol.com > Copies to: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Towers > Bob, > American Model Builders is working on it. It is not done yet. I have had > several conversations on which tower to do. I do not believe they have come to > a concrete committment yet. But we will have a Pennsy HO Scale Tower that > SPEAKS OF PENNSY. I know the owner personally and we talk all the time. I > have suggested he does not pattern it after any particular tower, but it must > be "typically Pennsy". Care to share your comments I realize I might take some > heat on this, but my shoulders are broad. > Greg Martin > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!